There have been many postings here regarding a general decline in metals stocks during a stock market decline. I understand the natural attraction of stocks in profitable companies, but I fail to understand the attraction to paper in these times! Any kind of paper!! Does everyone still think that these times are 'as normal' as previous times since the Great Devaluement? That one took a fraction of what the next one could bring! Paper? I don't believe it'll 'be' worth what it used to be! In a BIG way!! Many here should be expanding their conceptions of the possibilities that can easily arise give even a modicum of difficulties in handling the debt! There are a LOT of fires out there that are bent on escaping the guardians. Just let a 'bit' more breeze move them! Just let a small mistake get compounded. Just don't be one of those who get caught holding 'the bag'!

There have been many postings here regarding a general decline in metals stocks during a stock market decline. I understand the natural attraction of stocks in profitable companies, but I fail to understand the attraction to paper in these times! Any kind of paper!! Does everyone still think that these times are 'as normal' as previous times since the Great Devaluement? That one took a fraction of what the next one could bring! Paper? I don't believe it'll 'be' worth what it used to be! In a BIG way!! Many here should be expanding their conceptions of the possibilities that can easily arise give even a modicum of difficulties in handling the debt! There are a LOT of fires out there that are bent on escaping the guardians. Just let a 'bit' more breeze move them! Just let a small mistake get compounded. Just don't be one of those who get caught holding 'the bag'!

Fundy ( 11:29 ) Its not like everyone here bought gold at
$800+ and are still holding and waiting for it to go
higher.
Actually there were many opportunities in both gold and
the mining stocks over the past 20 years.
I feel almost sure that gold amd silver at an
impenatrable base of $500 and $10 respectively would do
most, just fine.
But when considering all that paper manufactured by just
interest payments and the stock markets; both metals
should be much higher.
This doesn't consider the production supply deficits for
those metals.
I feel sure that their prices are being skillfully
rigged, by ebulent stock markets, currency manipulations
and so on. ( NOW WHO'S CAPABLE OF THIS? )
They make Bre-x and Delgratia look like "kid stuff".

Fundy ( 11:29 ) Its not like everyone here bought gold at
$800+ and are still holding and waiting for it to go
higher.
Actually there were many opportunities in both gold and
the mining stocks over the past 20 years.
I feel almost sure that gold amd silver at an
impenatrable base of $500 and $10 respectively would do
most, just fine.
But when considering all that paper manufactured by just
interest payments and the stock markets; both metals
should be much higher.
This doesn't consider the production supply deficits for
those metals.
I feel sure that their prices are being skillfully
rigged, by ebulent stock markets, currency manipulations
and so on. ( NOW WHO'S CAPABLE OF THIS? )
They make Bre-x and Delgratia look like "kid stuff".

I see that someone likes the name of my consort's handle so much that they have decided to use it as their own. It is either a newbie or a long time lurker trying to steal goat. Good Luck Prognosticator!
Speaking of getting goat; even the distortions and outright lies of John ( hepcat/dragoo/Cool Water/Crab Rangoon/ Parlez Vous/ Zoinks Man/Moa/Mental Case/ can't even get me down today:
as My family and friends surprised me with a 25th Wedding anniversary party. They planned it to a 'T' and my wife and myself were truly surprised and shocked. And a wonderful time was had by all!
"Will you still need me, will you still feed me when I'm 64." - Beatles 1967.
And once again, Congrats to you and yours also Mr. Front and consort!

I see that someone likes the name of my consort's handle so much that they have decided to use it as their own. It is either a newbie or a long time lurker trying to steal goat. Good Luck Prognosticator!
Speaking of getting goat; even the distortions and outright lies of John ( hepcat/dragoo/Cool Water/Crab Rangoon/ Parlez Vous/ Zoinks Man/Moa/Mental Case/ can't even get me down today:
as My family and friends surprised me with a 25th Wedding anniversary party. They planned it to a 'T' and my wife and myself were truly surprised and shocked. And a wonderful time was had by all!
"Will you still need me, will you still feed me when I'm 64." - Beatles 1967.
And once again, Congrats to you and yours also Mr. Front and consort!

Hear ye - Much have I traveled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and kingdoms seen. ( Keats ) To all who have tolerated and the few who have appreciated my stampede through your village, thanks. Some have said that I get into faces just to count how many are left when the smoke lifts. The remainders, while different, usually share some common characteristics: Jaw set square with willingness to speak true, keen nose to detect the slightest foul stench of deceit or hypocrisy, and cunning eyes to take the sum of what they see. There are those in this group with stout hearts and clear minds and I look forward to future discourse. My tempo is usually very measured with only occasional bouts of fever. Forward.

Hear ye - Much have I traveled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and kingdoms seen. ( Keats ) To all who have tolerated and the few who have appreciated my stampede through your village, thanks. Some have said that I get into faces just to count how many are left when the smoke lifts. The remainders, while different, usually share some common characteristics: Jaw set square with willingness to speak true, keen nose to detect the slightest foul stench of deceit or hypocrisy, and cunning eyes to take the sum of what they see. There are those in this group with stout hearts and clear minds and I look forward to future discourse. My tempo is usually very measured with only occasional bouts of fever. Forward.

Goldbug Omega - Its nice to see the humor appreciated, thanks.

Goldbug Omega - Its nice to see the humor appreciated, thanks.

Eldorado - I kikcked it and it didn't move. I'll give a more detailed responce when I have a chance.

Eldorado - I kikcked it and it didn't move. I'll give a more detailed responce when I have a chance.

I just like to add some to your discussion wether gold stocks
will go up in the bear market if gold will rise
Suppose gold up to $450 majors want to cash in and rise prduction
And here it is BGO sitting on 30 mln, drilling one more hole in the hill.
.
PDG got smart " I will pay BGO $50/oz ( it will give BGO 15$ US ) mine it 150$/oz get some nice 200$
after tax, rise divident for my shareholders.BGO shareholders should not refuse they have been waiting for so long and it is BEAR MARKET
So PDG aproaches BGO with 1.5 $ bln cash and BGO says "See this jents over there? ..
ets
Now gess in what direction which gold minning stocks will go
if stock market crash, and gold will go to $450

I just like to add some to your discussion wether gold stocks
will go up in the bear market if gold will rise
Suppose gold up to $450 majors want to cash in and rise prduction
And here it is BGO sitting on 30 mln, drilling one more hole in the hill.
.
PDG got smart " I will pay BGO $50/oz ( it will give BGO 15$ US ) mine it 150$/oz get some nice 200$
after tax, rise divident for my shareholders.BGO shareholders should not refuse they have been waiting for so long and it is BEAR MARKET
So PDG aproaches BGO with 1.5 $ bln cash and BGO says "See this jents over there? ..
ets
Now gess in what direction which gold minning stocks will go
if stock market crash, and gold will go to $450

Re: prior. I refuze to post anything further without cheking the speling

Re: prior. I refuze to post anything further without cheking the speling

We have decided ( IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE ) to keep the
dollar at its present level relative to the currencies in
order to kick start their economies.
The recent opinions of the Budesbank in their argument
with their government, have told us to leave gold alone,
and allow it to seek its own level.
Additionally we no other recourse, but to keep the stock
market within 15% of its recent highs, by various
government interventions. The small stocks will offer an
arena to keep the US investor from losing large amounts.
While our trade deficit will increase considerably, we
plan that when the deficit figures approach $280 billion.
that we will let the dollar slide.

We have decided ( IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE ) to keep the
dollar at its present level relative to the currencies in
order to kick start their economies.
The recent opinions of the Budesbank in their argument
with their government, have told us to leave gold alone,
and allow it to seek its own level.
Additionally we no other recourse, but to keep the stock
market within 15% of its recent highs, by various
government interventions. The small stocks will offer an
arena to keep the US investor from losing large amounts.
While our trade deficit will increase considerably, we
plan that when the deficit figures approach $280 billion.
that we will let the dollar slide.

Predictor ( 21:58 ) Are you possibly considering Silverado ( GOLDF ) as one of those juniors that will benefit from a takeover? I have heard talk ( was it on Kitco? ) that they have properties in Alaska that either Barrick or Placer Dome are interested in.

Predictor ( 21:58 ) Are you possibly considering Silverado ( GOLDF ) as one of those juniors that will benefit from a takeover? I have heard talk ( was it on Kitco? ) that they have properties in Alaska that either Barrick or Placer Dome are interested in.

Ray - there are a significant number of "marginal" gold mines in
South Africa ( not listed in North American stock exchanges ) that are
hedged.

Ray - there are a significant number of "marginal" gold mines in
South Africa ( not listed in North American stock exchanges ) that are
hedged.

Gold stocks have generally declined during bear markets. But the situation today is very different than it was at the start of previous bears.

Gold stocks have generally risen during previous bull markets, sometimes quite sharply. In 1987, for example, gold stocks soared along with the rest of the market. Today, by contrast, gold stocks have been dropping for 17 months, while the overall stock market soared. Gold stocks now are far cheaper relative to stocks overall than they were at the beginning of any previous bear market, with the possible exception of 1973.

Much will depend upon gold bullion's performance during the looming bear. Bullion has usually headed lower during previous bears, with the notable exception of 1973-75. But bullion too is far cheaper relative to the stock market than it was at the start of previous bears ( 1973-75 excepted ) . The Dow Industrials now is selling at over 22 times the bullion price. It was just 6 times the bullion price in 1987 and 8 times the bullion price in 1990.

With stocks more overvalued today than at any time in history, the next bear market will much more severe than most past bears -- more like 1929-32 or 1973-75, than 1987 or 1990. Gold generally does best in severe secular bears where the very future of the system comes into question.

We must also remember that the public is far more heavily involved in the stock market today than it was at previous peaks. Hence the political and economic implications of a severe and/or extended bear market are far greater than in the past. Very positive for gold.

I've said it before and will say it again, gold does best when capital starts to run scared. And I submit that capital will be very scared once the next bear market is in full swing.

Gold stocks have generally declined during bear markets. But the situation today is very different than it was at the start of previous bears.

Gold stocks have generally risen during previous bull markets, sometimes quite sharply. In 1987, for example, gold stocks soared along with the rest of the market. Today, by contrast, gold stocks have been dropping for 17 months, while the overall stock market soared. Gold stocks now are far cheaper relative to stocks overall than they were at the beginning of any previous bear market, with the possible exception of 1973.

Much will depend upon gold bullion's performance during the looming bear. Bullion has usually headed lower during previous bears, with the notable exception of 1973-75. But bullion too is far cheaper relative to the stock market than it was at the start of previous bears ( 1973-75 excepted ) . The Dow Industrials now is selling at over 22 times the bullion price. It was just 6 times the bullion price in 1987 and 8 times the bullion price in 1990.

With stocks more overvalued today than at any time in history, the next bear market will much more severe than most past bears -- more like 1929-32 or 1973-75, than 1987 or 1990. Gold generally does best in severe secular bears where the very future of the system comes into question.

We must also remember that the public is far more heavily involved in the stock market today than it was at previous peaks. Hence the political and economic implications of a severe and/or extended bear market are far greater than in the past. Very positive for gold.

I've said it before and will say it again, gold does best when capital starts to run scared. And I submit that capital will be very scared once the next bear market is in full swing.

Mooney ( 1:53 ) Congrats on 25th and party....We will make number 17 this summer....Was Rangoon invited th the party...hahahaha

Mooney ( 1:53 ) Congrats on 25th and party....We will make number 17 this summer....Was Rangoon invited th the party...hahahaha

Tort: Got yer LJ and loved it but post it here....hahaha...Was out fer most of yesterday and had company ( ? ) over last night....so have been out of the cyber-world.....

Tort: Got yer LJ and loved it but post it here....hahaha...Was out fer most of yesterday and had company ( ? ) over last night....so have been out of the cyber-world.....

George S. Cole: Your positive outlook for mining stocks is supported by an article on Vronsky's site: http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/great_crash.html

My understanding is that if you bought Homestake Mining in 1929 and held it, you made money all the way through the 1930's. The flight to quality by scared capital will move to mining stocks first IMHO, because stocks are what the investing public believes will succeed. Bullion will follow. Mutual funds are already making strong plays in the metals, witness the Tiger fund and platinum/palladium.

Vronsky: Thanks for the data on Stillwater.

George S. Cole: Your positive outlook for mining stocks is supported by an article on Vronsky's site: http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/great_crash.html

My understanding is that if you bought Homestake Mining in 1929 and held it, you made money all the way through the 1930's. The flight to quality by scared capital will move to mining stocks first IMHO, because stocks are what the investing public believes will succeed. Bullion will follow. Mutual funds are already making strong plays in the metals, witness the Tiger fund and platinum/palladium.

Vronsky: Thanks for the data on Stillwater.

A beautiful day on the ocean and I'm outta here.....

A beautiful day on the ocean and I'm outta here.....

Mr. Bear and RJ et. al: Your postings are beneficial to this site because they compel us to refute solid arguments which are backed by data. Please keep posting. Be aware of a couple of things:
1. Bullion trading is not limited to commercial producers and jewelry makers per one of your posts yesterday. Two other groups impact prices, speculators and investors. Speculators like the U.S. Tiger fund have a tremendous short-term impact on markets, just look at Platinum/Palladium. Investors who purchase bullion and mining stocks are a wild card, hard to predict. Keep in mind that the mining stocks are a small arena and could be completely dominated by the same amount of money currently invested in say Coca Cola.
2. See George S. Cole's excellent posts detailing why this market differs from the one's charted and graphed yesterday by the sceptics.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Keep making us think!

"The wise man sees trouble coming and hides himself, the fool goes on and is punished." I'm hiding my financial self behind bullion and mining stocks.

Mr. Bear and RJ et. al: Your postings are beneficial to this site because they compel us to refute solid arguments which are backed by data. Please keep posting. Be aware of a couple of things:
1. Bullion trading is not limited to commercial producers and jewelry makers per one of your posts yesterday. Two other groups impact prices, speculators and investors. Speculators like the U.S. Tiger fund have a tremendous short-term impact on markets, just look at Platinum/Palladium. Investors who purchase bullion and mining stocks are a wild card, hard to predict. Keep in mind that the mining stocks are a small arena and could be completely dominated by the same amount of money currently invested in say Coca Cola.
2. See George S. Cole's excellent posts detailing why this market differs from the one's charted and graphed yesterday by the sceptics.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Keep making us think!

"The wise man sees trouble coming and hides himself, the fool goes on and is punished." I'm hiding my financial self behind bullion and mining stocks.

Duncan: Didn't consider Silverado because I haven't read much on them. I do have the information sitting at my feet ( as I post ) and will peruse it. I have other companies in mine ( because I've been following them ) . I believe some takeovers are very possible in 1998.

Duncan: Didn't consider Silverado because I haven't read much on them. I do have the information sitting at my feet ( as I post ) and will peruse it. I have other companies in mine ( because I've been following them ) . I believe some takeovers are very possible in 1998.

Jack: Certainly not all who post here are still holding on to 800+ gold
but a lot have that figure in their mind--where do you think the $1000 or 2000 estimates are based on? With regard to making money over the last 2 decades it certainly could have been done with gold or copper or rhodium especially rhodium if only once. The rumoured shortage of silver is certainly 15 years old. Perhaps it would be about $2 if there was no shortage?

I wonder what the price of gold would be in 1980 dollars. Cars that I buy are up about 300% since 1980. Maybe gold in 1980 dollars is currently worth about $150?

Jack: Certainly not all who post here are still holding on to 800+ gold
but a lot have that figure in their mind--where do you think the $1000 or 2000 estimates are based on? With regard to making money over the last 2 decades it certainly could have been done with gold or copper or rhodium especially rhodium if only once. The rumoured shortage of silver is certainly 15 years old. Perhaps it would be about $2 if there was no shortage?

I wonder what the price of gold would be in 1980 dollars. Cars that I buy are up about 300% since 1980. Maybe gold in 1980 dollars is currently worth about $150?

Mooney - As you suggested, I am a newbie, and didn't intend to step on anyone's handle. With your permission, I will continue to use "Prognosticator" but always with the Elliottwave address.
I think that I have identified a bull market termination pattern in gold called a 5th wave flat. If I am correct, gold will go down to about 338, basis the June contract, then up, with an initial target of 351, before a significant drop in price, then up again through late summer or fall.

Mooney - As you suggested, I am a newbie, and didn't intend to step on anyone's handle. With your permission, I will continue to use "Prognosticator" but always with the Elliottwave address.
I think that I have identified a bull market termination pattern in gold called a 5th wave flat. If I am correct, gold will go down to about 338, basis the June contract, then up, with an initial target of 351, before a significant drop in price, then up again through late summer or fall.

I totally support George S. Cole's opinion that the current GOLD/DOW relationship today is more like that of the 1929-1935 and 1973-1974 periods. In each bear market of the Crashes, gold stocks appreciated hundreds of percent while the DOW was totally decimated. IMHO we have very similar conditions today for an encore of 1929-1935 and 1973-1974 market overtures.

I totally support George S. Cole's opinion that the current GOLD/DOW relationship today is more like that of the 1929-1935 and 1973-1974 periods. In each bear market of the Crashes, gold stocks appreciated hundreds of percent while the DOW was totally decimated. IMHO we have very similar conditions today for an encore of 1929-1935 and 1973-1974 market overtures.

World shattering metals report gives reason for Platinum & Palladium strength. It proves why same explosive price rise in Gold & Silver will occur - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/butler529.html

World shattering metals report gives reason for Platinum & Palladium strength. It proves why same explosive price rise in Gold & Silver will occur - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/butler529.html

vronsky- that piece by Ted Butler is a MUST READ by every serious investor!! THANKS

vronsky- that piece by Ted Butler is a MUST READ by every serious investor!! THANKS

Vronsky: One missing condition for the 1929-1935 comparison is the US governments backing of gold's price. It must have had some effect on gold's price and also gold mining shares and their dividends. How does this effect the colors of the scenario you paint.

Vronsky: One missing condition for the 1929-1935 comparison is the US governments backing of gold's price. It must have had some effect on gold's price and also gold mining shares and their dividends. How does this effect the colors of the scenario you paint.

Sorry, following URL is better - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

Sorry, following URL is better - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

vronsky and George S. Cole- I also agree that the times we are experiencing are a prelude to the 1920-30 period and those of you that got the what it takes to buy gold shares might jest have what "money" is
when the "dust" settles to buy other things "on sale"!

Tally Ho

vronsky and George S. Cole- I also agree that the times we are experiencing are a prelude to the 1920-30 period and those of you that got the what it takes to buy gold shares might jest have what "money" is
when the "dust" settles to buy other things "on sale"!

Tally Ho

One of US best-known Analysts in last 20 years, James Dines, shares bullish report on Platinum & Palladium - & their impact on Gold. He likes Stillwater Mining. See Editorials:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials.html

One of US best-known Analysts in last 20 years, James Dines, shares bullish report on Platinum & Palladium - & their impact on Gold. He likes Stillwater Mining. See Editorials:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials.html

Duncan- would you care to elaborate. I trade the JSE every day but try to limit my comments to stocks that are listed in the USA.

Duncan- would you care to elaborate. I trade the JSE every day but try to limit my comments to stocks that are listed in the USA.

Ray -- If you trade the JSE, could you tell what you think of Kloof mines. They've been pretty beaten up over the last year and a half. Are there fundamental reasons for this? Or is it a lack of interest in the SA gold stocks in general? Western Deep seems to be holding its own after the last plunge to $24+. I am totally clueless on Kloof. I can't even find any decent info on the 'net. Then again, maybe this is my answer?

Ray -- If you trade the JSE, could you tell what you think of Kloof mines. They've been pretty beaten up over the last year and a half. Are there fundamental reasons for this? Or is it a lack of interest in the SA gold stocks in general? Western Deep seems to be holding its own after the last plunge to $24+. I am totally clueless on Kloof. I can't even find any decent info on the 'net. Then again, maybe this is my answer?

Duncan: ie Silverado: From the Northeast Mining Investment conference, a report by John Doody - "SILVERADO keeps raping its shareholders by issuing more stock in the form of options to insiders at below-market prices. These guys then sell their free-trading shares into the market, netting a handsome profit."

Yes, I know others do the same thing, and as a rule I try to stay away from them. If I own shares in a company that announces the type of double dealing as above, I dump them and go on.

Remember the 6 "P"s - and People should be at the top of the list. Ross Beatty and Bob Quartermain are two that you can trust. Companies that they are involved in include: PAASF, SSRIF. Both are "pure" silver plays, and yes, other companies do mine alot of silver but I look at them as gold plays with a silver bonus.

Duncan: ie Silverado: From the Northeast Mining Investment conference, a report by John Doody - "SILVERADO keeps raping its shareholders by issuing more stock in the form of options to insiders at below-market prices. These guys then sell their free-trading shares into the market, netting a handsome profit."

Yes, I know others do the same thing, and as a rule I try to stay away from them. If I own shares in a company that announces the type of double dealing as above, I dump them and go on.

Remember the 6 "P"s - and People should be at the top of the list. Ross Beatty and Bob Quartermain are two that you can trust. Companies that they are involved in include: PAASF, SSRIF. Both are "pure" silver plays, and yes, other companies do mine alot of silver but I look at them as gold plays with a silver bonus.

Some light Sunday morning reading.


http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/y0023_z00_2.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/z0009_3.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/f_gm_y000_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/z0009_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/07/z0009_2.html

Some light Sunday morning reading.


http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/y0023_z00_2.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/z0009_3.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/f_gm_y000_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/08/z0009_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/06/07/z0009_2.html

Last two stories on the list are in reference to Taiwan gold buying and Korean tensions. If no one is interested in this gold stuff, then why is everyone hiding and hoarding the stuff? We may look like loonies here ( sorry Canadians, no ref. to your money! ) for attempting to play this metals game, but others elsewhere in the world are doing it by the, 'bagfull'. It looks like the only bags that they'll be holding are ones full of gold and silver! BBML.............

Last two stories on the list are in reference to Taiwan gold buying and Korean tensions. If no one is interested in this gold stuff, then why is everyone hiding and hoarding the stuff? We may look like loonies here ( sorry Canadians, no ref. to your money! ) for attempting to play this metals game, but others elsewhere in the world are doing it by the, 'bagfull'. It looks like the only bags that they'll be holding are ones full of gold and silver! BBML.............

Panda: On the post of Russian delays "dealers added that tension may persist through June until there is clear evidence that Russia, the biggest supplier, has begun a delayed 1997 export campaign."

Any further delays and the "1997 export campaign" will be into 1998!

Panda: On the post of Russian delays "dealers added that tension may persist through June until there is clear evidence that Russia, the biggest supplier, has begun a delayed 1997 export campaign."

Any further delays and the "1997 export campaign" will be into 1998!

The second CB to raise rates since April. Considering the recent article about an average 4% rate rise over 2 years, get ready for more rate rises & market falls....The weapon in the Banks fiscal killing fields.

SYDNEY MORNING HERALD Monday, June 9, 1997
Bank of England lifts interest rates
By GLENDA KORPORAAL in London

The Bank of England has taken the first opportunity to show its newly acquired independence by increasing British interest rates by 0.25 per cent on Friday.

The increase, which comes as the Reserve Bank of Australia has been cutting rates, was made at the first meeting of the Bank of England's new monetary policy committee.

The bank increased rates to 6.5 per cent because of its concerns that the strength of the economy would put further upward pressure on inflation and overshoot the target maximum of 2.5 per cent.

This is the first time in its 300 years that the bank has been able to decide interest rates rather than the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

The move to give the bank control over setting interest rates was one of the first decisions of the Blair Labour Government after its election on May 1.

The bank's decision - ahead of the Blair Government's first Budget on July 2 - shows its desire to carve out a reputation for being tough on inflation.

Until recently British financial markets have been treated to the embarrassing spectacle of the governor of the Bank of England going cap in hand to argue for an increase in interest rates each month, only to be rebuffed by a Chancellor whose primary concern was not to upset voters before the election.

The change has already led to a reduction in the premium paid by British borrowers on world financial markets compared to other European economies as international investors have become more confident that an independent Bank of England would be more vigilant in controlling inflation.

The bank's decision has come despite concerns that it may put upwards pressure on sterling.

Its new independence comes as Germany's Bundesbank - the most independent
central bank in the world - last week won its fight with German Chancellor Dr Helmut Kohl not to have the profits from the revaluations in the country's gold reserves included in the German Budget for 1997.

The bank was concerned the move was aimed at artificially boosting the German Budget for 1997 so the Government could meet Maastricht Treaty requirements for joining the single currency in January 1999 without taking tough action on the deficit. The battle ended in humiliation for Mr Kohl.

The second CB to raise rates since April. Considering the recent article about an average 4% rate rise over 2 years, get ready for more rate rises & market falls....The weapon in the Banks fiscal killing fields.

SYDNEY MORNING HERALD Monday, June 9, 1997
Bank of England lifts interest rates
By GLENDA KORPORAAL in London

The Bank of England has taken the first opportunity to show its newly acquired independence by increasing British interest rates by 0.25 per cent on Friday.

The increase, which comes as the Reserve Bank of Australia has been cutting rates, was made at the first meeting of the Bank of England's new monetary policy committee.

The bank increased rates to 6.5 per cent because of its concerns that the strength of the economy would put further upward pressure on inflation and overshoot the target maximum of 2.5 per cent.

This is the first time in its 300 years that the bank has been able to decide interest rates rather than the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

The move to give the bank control over setting interest rates was one of the first decisions of the Blair Labour Government after its election on May 1.

The bank's decision - ahead of the Blair Government's first Budget on July 2 - shows its desire to carve out a reputation for being tough on inflation.

Until recently British financial markets have been treated to the embarrassing spectacle of the governor of the Bank of England going cap in hand to argue for an increase in interest rates each month, only to be rebuffed by a Chancellor whose primary concern was not to upset voters before the election.

The change has already led to a reduction in the premium paid by British borrowers on world financial markets compared to other European economies as international investors have become more confident that an independent Bank of England would be more vigilant in controlling inflation.

The bank's decision has come despite concerns that it may put upwards pressure on sterling.

Its new independence comes as Germany's Bundesbank - the most independent
central bank in the world - last week won its fight with German Chancellor Dr Helmut Kohl not to have the profits from the revaluations in the country's gold reserves included in the German Budget for 1997.

The bank was concerned the move was aimed at artificially boosting the German Budget for 1997 so the Government could meet Maastricht Treaty requirements for joining the single currency in January 1999 without taking tough action on the deficit. The battle ended in humiliation for Mr Kohl.

Golds price was regulated until 72, so at the time of the 29 crash the profits of gold mining stocks were guaranteed.

Golds price was regulated until 72, so at the time of the 29 crash the profits of gold mining stocks were guaranteed.

Russia - the vacuum cleaner

http://www.russiatoday.com/rtoday/business/news/02.html

Russia - the vacuum cleaner

http://www.russiatoday.com/rtoday/business/news/02.html

Mike: After the implosion of our debt bubble, the values of gold will be known to almost everyone. With gold's chief value being that of honesty. The printing presses may roll big time or perhaps not. The end result will be the same. Within days weeks or months, the financial system will realize the value of all unsecured debt that is no longer politically useful, very close to zero.

Mike: After the implosion of our debt bubble, the values of gold will be known to almost everyone. With gold's chief value being that of honesty. The printing presses may roll big time or perhaps not. The end result will be the same. Within days weeks or months, the financial system will realize the value of all unsecured debt that is no longer politically useful, very close to zero.

McAlvanys MELTDOWN OF 97 - Latest chapter: THE U.S. STOCK MARKET: WILL 1997 BE THE YEAR OF THE DEATH PLUNGE? CLICK RELOAD at Gold Digest section:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

McAlvanys MELTDOWN OF 97 - Latest chapter: THE U.S. STOCK MARKET: WILL 1997 BE THE YEAR OF THE DEATH PLUNGE? CLICK RELOAD at Gold Digest section:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

You got the guaranteed price right Mr. Bear. I recall a $20 an oz guarantee. What is that in 1997 dollars. People worked for $5 a week during the depression, those that had a job. So by that standard gold was worth a months pay an oz. That means about $3500 an oz in 1997 if you put an average salary at $35,000 to $40000 a year. Anyone know the corect figures for todays average salary? Anyone think the US government is going to guarantee gold at a month's pay per oz if/when we have a crash.

You got the guaranteed price right Mr. Bear. I recall a $20 an oz guarantee. What is that in 1997 dollars. People worked for $5 a week during the depression, those that had a job. So by that standard gold was worth a months pay an oz. That means about $3500 an oz in 1997 if you put an average salary at $35,000 to $40000 a year. Anyone know the corect figures for todays average salary? Anyone think the US government is going to guarantee gold at a month's pay per oz if/when we have a crash.

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

panda, Polarbear, etal- I sold all my SA shares except Blyvoors, before the quarterlies came out because I knew they would not be good. In the second quarter of 1996 we made a small fortune with the SA golds, then we had a fallin Rand and a stable to risin gold price the shares did quite well durin that time now we have the opposite and there is no reason to own them now. I traded in and out of Cons Modder three times for a varry nice profit. The SA mining industry is in another phase of consolidation
mergers and the like to try to keep profitable in this low gold environment. If the price ever starts to rise Blyvoors would have been the name to own but that is a changin and the new company could do verry well, I do not know that though yet, how the leverage will act. So that leaves Western Deep Levels. I have owned Kloof, my brokers pick, quite frankly I do not like it!

Lately I have been tryin to figure out which are the most leveraged mines and the way I do that is on days that the gold price moves up or down and the shares react I print out the Stock Smart chart that rates all the shares by % gain or %loss. So far those on my radar screen
Western Deep, still Blyvoors, Amax, Eldorado, PAASF, SSRIF etc.
I am still adding to tht list.

While I wait my largest "junior" position is in AZS, for obvious reasons.
Since there ain't no gold in the swanps of Borneo then the largest proven
reserve in the world is the properites held by Bema and Arizona Star and Bema has AZS up for sale. It don't take too much smart to figure out that one day soon one of them big mining companies can not stand it another day and will have to have AZS. Nuff said, lunch time!!

Tally HO

panda, Polarbear, etal- I sold all my SA shares except Blyvoors, before the quarterlies came out because I knew they would not be good. In the second quarter of 1996 we made a small fortune with the SA golds, then we had a fallin Rand and a stable to risin gold price the shares did quite well durin that time now we have the opposite and there is no reason to own them now. I traded in and out of Cons Modder three times for a varry nice profit. The SA mining industry is in another phase of consolidation
mergers and the like to try to keep profitable in this low gold environment. If the price ever starts to rise Blyvoors would have been the name to own but that is a changin and the new company could do verry well, I do not know that though yet, how the leverage will act. So that leaves Western Deep Levels. I have owned Kloof, my brokers pick, quite frankly I do not like it!

Lately I have been tryin to figure out which are the most leveraged mines and the way I do that is on days that the gold price moves up or down and the shares react I print out the Stock Smart chart that rates all the shares by % gain or %loss. So far those on my radar screen
Western Deep, still Blyvoors, Amax, Eldorado, PAASF, SSRIF etc.
I am still adding to tht list.

While I wait my largest "junior" position is in AZS, for obvious reasons.
Since there ain't no gold in the swanps of Borneo then the largest proven
reserve in the world is the properites held by Bema and Arizona Star and Bema has AZS up for sale. It don't take too much smart to figure out that one day soon one of them big mining companies can not stand it another day and will have to have AZS. Nuff said, lunch time!!

Tally HO

Get an arithmetic chart of the dow back to 1900 or so. Now since this is just a fun exercise lets not get too fussy about things like inflation or such. Stand back from the chart five or so feet. Stare at the chart for a couple minutes. What do you see? What I see is absolutely no long term support at all until 1000. Now I know this bull will never end. But should we start taking out the thousand point levels on the way down, there is nothing to stop us until 1000. We should get a decent long term bounce there.

Get an arithmetic chart of the dow back to 1900 or so. Now since this is just a fun exercise lets not get too fussy about things like inflation or such. Stand back from the chart five or so feet. Stare at the chart for a couple minutes. What do you see? What I see is absolutely no long term support at all until 1000. Now I know this bull will never end. But should we start taking out the thousand point levels on the way down, there is nothing to stop us until 1000. We should get a decent long term bounce there.

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

Mr. Bear: The government did not ( and cannot ) guarantee the price of gold. They guaranteed the value of paper money by agreeing to swap it for gold at any time. Gold and silver coins were in circulation. Paper currency had "Gold Certificate" or "Silver Certificate" printed across the top. Prices of goods and services were effectively set in terms of gold. In the 30's government decided to confiscate gold and make it illegal for American's to own gold. This began the long process of unlinking paper currency from the historical standard. Wages have not increased as much as we think. A worker earning wages worth 1.5 to 2 oz. ( $30-$40 ) of gold per week in 1929, would have to earn $600 to $700 per week today for the same amount of gold, and there are many who would like to have a job paying that much! Gold hasn't changed, it's value hasn't changed, our paper has been greatly depreciated. Our perceptions have been altered.

bw: Several other charts done in constant dollars indicate that your observation is not just probable but likely. One chart in particular was plotted in 1910 dollars from 1913 to the present. Every bull market in the intervening years ultimately corrected to the level of 1913 or lower. If and when this market does the same, that 1913 level would be around Dow 1400. If it overshoots to the downside, as is likely, you're Dow 1000 may even optimistic.

bw: Several other charts done in constant dollars indicate that your observation is not just probable but likely. One chart in particular was plotted in 1910 dollars from 1913 to the present. Every bull market in the intervening years ultimately corrected to the level of 1913 or lower. If and when this market does the same, that 1913 level would be around Dow 1400. If it overshoots to the downside, as is likely, you're Dow 1000 may even optimistic.

Mr. Bear: The government did not ( and cannot ) guarantee the price of gold. They guaranteed the value of paper money by agreeing to swap it for gold at any time. Gold and silver coins were in circulation. Paper currency had "Gold Certificate" or "Silver Certificate" printed across the top. Prices of goods and services were effectively set in terms of gold. In the 30's government decided to confiscate gold and make it illegal for American's to own gold. This began the long process of unlinking paper currency from the historical standard. Wages have not increased as much as we think. A worker earning wages worth 1.5 to 2 oz. ( $30-$40 ) of gold per week in 1929, would have to earn $600 to $700 per week today for the same amount of gold, and there are many who would like to have a job paying that much! Gold hasn't changed, it's value hasn't changed, our paper has been greatly depreciated. Our perceptions have been altered.

Im still lurking and learning. Hope to someday make worthwhile contributions to this group - the talent here is enough to make me keep my mouth shut and just try to learn for awhile. However, learning usually creates questions. Ive read numerous posts from contributors who actively trade in and out of their gold mutual funds partially based on technical analysis of the XAU Index. Does anyone use some of the other sector indexes like the Amex XOI for energy funds, or the Amex Gold Bugs Index to help their fund timing decisions? Short Bulls Rydex funds like: OTC Fund = NASDAQ 100 Index and Bond Fund = Long Treasury Bond Futures is what Im hoping for. I would appreciate any opinions of what Indexes I should exam and what particular mutual funds may closely follow these indexes. I realize the stock bull is very "long in the tooth," but are there some sector funds in addition to gold that may do well in the coming economic age? Thank you for your consideration.

Im still lurking and learning. Hope to someday make worthwhile contributions to this group - the talent here is enough to make me keep my mouth shut and just try to learn for awhile. However, learning usually creates questions. Ive read numerous posts from contributors who actively trade in and out of their gold mutual funds partially based on technical analysis of the XAU Index. Does anyone use some of the other sector indexes like the Amex XOI for energy funds, or the Amex Gold Bugs Index to help their fund timing decisions? Short Bulls Rydex funds like: OTC Fund = NASDAQ 100 Index and Bond Fund = Long Treasury Bond Futures is what Im hoping for. I would appreciate any opinions of what Indexes I should exam and what particular mutual funds may closely follow these indexes. I realize the stock bull is very "long in the tooth," but are there some sector funds in addition to gold that may do well in the coming economic age? Thank you for your consideration.

After lunch part II- sorry the mate was hollerin ya'll come, which means get your butt in here.

Another fine stock that I have noticed has leverage is Eldorado and has other merrits worth lookin at. They have jest recognized the value
or rather undervalued reserves in SA and jest bought some, the first American company to venture into South Africa. and D.A has convensed me to take a substancial position in Aurizon- good folks, plenty potential.
Another that has the same merits as Blyvoors is Hecla. When the crowd starts to move they will buy Hecla. Another on the leveraged list is PAASF.
I mentioned Cons Modder in the first piece. Gold in South Africa is not found in the nugget form as found in the western USA. It must be extracted from rock in a crushing and chemical process. But Cons Modder's
property has the highest gold values and closest to nugget form in
Africa. Cons Modder has jest been merged with Harmony. Now that could be a perfect combination, high gold values, goood management, plenty of capitol. Harmony and Durban Deep [Blyvoors merges with DD] are companies that deserve consideration by any serious investor.

Desert time!

Tally Ho

After lunch part II- sorry the mate was hollerin ya'll come, which means get your butt in here.

Another fine stock that I have noticed has leverage is Eldorado and has other merrits worth lookin at. They have jest recognized the value
or rather undervalued reserves in SA and jest bought some, the first American company to venture into South Africa. and D.A has convensed me to take a substancial position in Aurizon- good folks, plenty potential.
Another that has the same merits as Blyvoors is Hecla. When the crowd starts to move they will buy Hecla. Another on the leveraged list is PAASF.
I mentioned Cons Modder in the first piece. Gold in South Africa is not found in the nugget form as found in the western USA. It must be extracted from rock in a crushing and chemical process. But Cons Modder's
property has the highest gold values and closest to nugget form in
Africa. Cons Modder has jest been merged with Harmony. Now that could be a perfect combination, high gold values, goood management, plenty of capitol. Harmony and Durban Deep [Blyvoors merges with DD] are companies that deserve consideration by any serious investor.

Desert time!

Tally Ho

Surveyor: Hell, jump right in. I'm in the same
boat, I've just learned to go ahead and spout off. I
have developed a taste for shoe leather in the
process!

Surveyor: Hell, jump right in. I'm in the same
boat, I've just learned to go ahead and spout off. I
have developed a taste for shoe leather in the
process!

Mike Sheller: US Treasury gold began disappearing in large numbers as early as 1931. That is, US citizens began converting their paper dollars into Treasury gold then. The reason the US suspended gold convertibility was because they were losing it. But remember, it wasn't the Treasury's gold. It was gold the Treasury held for the individuals who deposited it into the banking system. The Treasury broke their promise to return it.

Mike Sheller: US Treasury gold began disappearing in large numbers as early as 1931. That is, US citizens began converting their paper dollars into Treasury gold then. The reason the US suspended gold convertibility was because they were losing it. But remember, it wasn't the Treasury's gold. It was gold the Treasury held for the individuals who deposited it into the banking system. The Treasury broke their promise to return it.

Eldorado: You make a good point. Gold shares are paper. That is one of the reasons I prefer gold coins over gold shares. Gold shares may do OK in the long-term, but why take the added risk of owning gold shares when you can have complete security in gold coins?

Eldorado: You make a good point. Gold shares are paper. That is one of the reasons I prefer gold coins over gold shares. Gold shares may do OK in the long-term, but why take the added risk of owning gold shares when you can have complete security in gold coins?

Fundy: I base my $5000 + gold estimate on the amount of paper-debt outstanding throughout the world. The relationship between gold and credit outstanding is as low now as it was in 1971 -- when gold stood at $35/ounce. To get back to a normal relationship, gold must rise to thousands of dollars per ounce.

Fundy: I base my $5000 + gold estimate on the amount of paper-debt outstanding throughout the world. The relationship between gold and credit outstanding is as low now as it was in 1971 -- when gold stood at $35/ounce. To get back to a normal relationship, gold must rise to thousands of dollars per ounce.

Mr. Bear ( the guy who lives in a cave ) : I'm not quite sure where you stand on the markets. Are you bearish on everything, gold, silver, stocks, real estate, the economy, our society? I'm bearish on all of these except gold and silver. They are real money. You should be buying them. You may be the smartest of all by already living in a cave, though.

Mr. Bear ( the guy who lives in a cave ) : I'm not quite sure where you stand on the markets. Are you bearish on everything, gold, silver, stocks, real estate, the economy, our society? I'm bearish on all of these except gold and silver. They are real money. You should be buying them. You may be the smartest of all by already living in a cave, though.

The weekly stochatic charts for FSAGX and FDPMX give a somewhat mixed picture. While the %k average has crossed the %d average a few weeks ago in FSAGX it has not done so in FDPMX, but one decent week will do the trick. Technically, both are still in oversold territory, and , as we know, can remain in an oversold condition, but me thinks were about to see some serious upside action. There is one stochastics support trendline on the FDPMX chart that the fund has tested 4 times over the last couple of years. Each time this support line has been touched by the %k line a significant rally has ensued usually 4 to 6 weeks of touching the line. We are presently at that moment.

Either we have a liftoff type of rally this week or we plunge again to test that line one more time. I'm betting on the upside mainly because FDPMX had a strong finish this week gaining over 2% in the last 2 days and finishing above last weeks close in what could be viewed as a reversal week.

The weekly stochatic charts for FSAGX and FDPMX give a somewhat mixed picture. While the %k average has crossed the %d average a few weeks ago in FSAGX it has not done so in FDPMX, but one decent week will do the trick. Technically, both are still in oversold territory, and , as we know, can remain in an oversold condition, but me thinks were about to see some serious upside action. There is one stochastics support trendline on the FDPMX chart that the fund has tested 4 times over the last couple of years. Each time this support line has been touched by the %k line a significant rally has ensued usually 4 to 6 weeks of touching the line. We are presently at that moment.

Either we have a liftoff type of rally this week or we plunge again to test that line one more time. I'm betting on the upside mainly because FDPMX had a strong finish this week gaining over 2% in the last 2 days and finishing above last weeks close in what could be viewed as a reversal week.

Mr. Peutz: there is nothing normal about $35 gold. Just a price in time. My questions remain. How much is 350 gold worth in 1970 dollars and who believes the US gov will guarantee to pay a months wages for an oz of it?

Mr. Peutz: there is nothing normal about $35 gold. Just a price in time. My questions remain. How much is 350 gold worth in 1970 dollars and who believes the US gov will guarantee to pay a months wages for an oz of it?

Given what the market is doing to a lot of us I think this joke, contributed by a fellow contributor to this line may be appropriate.

Two naked statues, a man and a woman, had been standing looking at
each other, in a park, for a hundred years. An angel came to visit them and said that since they had stood there so patiently through all the summers and winters, they would be rewarded by half an hour of human life to do what they had been wanting to do most.

So the two statues came to life, looked at each other, and laughed a
bit and said "shall we?" then, "yes let's" and they slipped off behind some bushes and there was a lot of rustling. After a quarter of an hour, they came out from behind the bushes all hot and flustered and happy. The angel said they had only used half their time and why didn't they start all over again. So the statues giggled a bit and the man statue said to the woman statue, "OK, let's do it again, only this time we'll do it the other way around. I'll hold down the pigeon and you crap on it!"

Given what the market is doing to a lot of us I think this joke, contributed by a fellow contributor to this line may be appropriate.

Two naked statues, a man and a woman, had been standing looking at
each other, in a park, for a hundred years. An angel came to visit them and said that since they had stood there so patiently through all the summers and winters, they would be rewarded by half an hour of human life to do what they had been wanting to do most.

So the two statues came to life, looked at each other, and laughed a
bit and said "shall we?" then, "yes let's" and they slipped off behind some bushes and there was a lot of rustling. After a quarter of an hour, they came out from behind the bushes all hot and flustered and happy. The angel said they had only used half their time and why didn't they start all over again. So the statues giggled a bit and the man statue said to the woman statue, "OK, let's do it again, only this time we'll do it the other way around. I'll hold down the pigeon and you crap on it!"

Surveyor: The Fidelity Select Energy Services fund has been dynamite the last couple of years. Start with the XOI but follow the news on things like offshore leases. Leases are expiring soon on many large parcels and the big companies have to drill or go through the whole bidding process again. No matter what the price of oil, drilling equipment is in high demand. This drives the earnings of the service companies. Of course one little hiccup in the middle east and look out. Hope this helps.

Surveyor: The Fidelity Select Energy Services fund has been dynamite the last couple of years. Start with the XOI but follow the news on things like offshore leases. Leases are expiring soon on many large parcels and the big companies have to drill or go through the whole bidding process again. No matter what the price of oil, drilling equipment is in high demand. This drives the earnings of the service companies. Of course one little hiccup in the middle east and look out. Hope this helps.

Mr Bear and Fundy: Since 1980, the supply of paper money
has increased by a considerable amount and so has
inflation. Can you explain that?
My thinking is that coordinted currency manipulations
have kept to some degree, international confidence in
paper money.
It has also raped the citizens of the participating
countries of the hope for a secure future because they
cannot plan for tomorrow in such an atmosphere.
Trust in unbacked paper currencies, means trust in
government and the politicians.

Mr Bear and Fundy: Since 1980, the supply of paper money
has increased by a considerable amount and so has
inflation. Can you explain that?
My thinking is that coordinted currency manipulations
have kept to some degree, international confidence in
paper money.
It has also raped the citizens of the participating
countries of the hope for a secure future because they
cannot plan for tomorrow in such an atmosphere.
Trust in unbacked paper currencies, means trust in
government and the politicians.

Mr Bear and Fundy: Since 1980, the supply of paper money
has increased by a considerable amount and so has
inflation. Can you explain that?
My thinking is that coordinted currency manipulations
have kept to some degree, international confidence in
paper money.
It has also raped the citizens of the participating
countries of the hope for a secure future because they
cannot plan for tomorrow in such an atmosphere.
Trust in unbacked paper currencies, means trust in
government and the politicians.

Mr Bear and Fundy: Since 1980, the supply of paper money
has increased by a considerable amount and so has
inflation. Can you explain that?
My thinking is that coordinted currency manipulations
have kept to some degree, international confidence in
paper money.
It has also raped the citizens of the participating
countries of the hope for a secure future because they
cannot plan for tomorrow in such an atmosphere.
Trust in unbacked paper currencies, means trust in
government and the politicians.

M. Graves: I'm still concerned about our misunderstanding. I would like to apologize and address issue in greater detail off line. If you would send me you send me your email address, I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.

M. Graves: I'm still concerned about our misunderstanding. I would like to apologize and address issue in greater detail off line. If you would send me you send me your email address, I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.

Last post on my screen is 15:53.

Last post on my screen is 15:53.

For Panda
Further to Ray's comments, I agree fully on Western
Deep Levels. But I also feel that Durban Deep is severely
undervalued based on its low cost of reserves and capacity.
It is my favorite long term but it could have a little more
downside for the present. Harmony is also good paricularly
since it took over Unisel.
The problem with Kloof is that it is really 3 mines -
Kloof, Leudoorn, and Libanon. Kloof itself it excellent,
but Im sure the other two mines operate at a loss. If
the gold price went to say 425 for example the whole
complex would become profitable but when the price is
where it is the good operation has to carry the bad
parts of the company.
Beatrix is a great low cost mine - preferable
generally speaking to driefontein but not very exciting.
Fregold is also okay at the price. Avgold could be a
future winner but ONLY at a high god price.
In the Platinum sector, I like Lebowa or maybe PP
Rust as a second choice.

For Panda
Further to Ray's comments, I agree fully on Western
Deep Levels. But I also feel that Durban Deep is severely
undervalued based on its low cost of reserves and capacity.
It is my favorite long term but it could have a little more
downside for the present. Harmony is also good paricularly
since it took over Unisel.
The problem with Kloof is that it is really 3 mines -
Kloof, Leudoorn, and Libanon. Kloof itself it excellent,
but Im sure the other two mines operate at a loss. If
the gold price went to say 425 for example the whole
complex would become profitable but when the price is
where it is the good operation has to carry the bad
parts of the company.
Beatrix is a great low cost mine - preferable
generally speaking to driefontein but not very exciting.
Fregold is also okay at the price. Avgold could be a
future winner but ONLY at a high god price.
In the Platinum sector, I like Lebowa or maybe PP
Rust as a second choice.

Market maven George S. Cole believes secular market reversals are near: Financials DOWN & Hard Assets UP, perhaps reminiscent of 1930s & 1970s. Cole Market Insights - Click RELOAD:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

Market maven George S. Cole believes secular market reversals are near: Financials DOWN & Hard Assets UP, perhaps reminiscent of 1930s & 1970s. Cole Market Insights - Click RELOAD:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

Surveyor: One idea would be to set up with a deep
discount broker and trade the individual stocks of a
particular index. It has been suggested here that
the HUI index stocks might be better than the XAU
due to less forward selling of gold in those stocks.
I think costs and simplicity would be similar.
Gives you the added advantage of no hidden costs
like 12-b, management fee etc. Might be worth
investigating.

Surveyor: One idea would be to set up with a deep
discount broker and trade the individual stocks of a
particular index. It has been suggested here that
the HUI index stocks might be better than the XAU
due to less forward selling of gold in those stocks.
I think costs and simplicity would be similar.
Gives you the added advantage of no hidden costs
like 12-b, management fee etc. Might be worth
investigating.

Speed: very cogent comments about wages in gold equivalents since the 30's.

John - Do you know what,s happening with Barplats - what is the
possibility of it reopening in the forseeable future?

John - Do you know what,s happening with Barplats - what is the
possibility of it reopening in the forseeable future?

Speed: very cogent comments about wages in gold equivalents since the 30's.

Ray - will try and get some names for you ( I no longer live in S.A. ) .
Perhaps John Disney could help ( with some names of hedged S.A. gold
mining companies ) . The only South African gold company that I hold is
apparently about 50% hedged ( Joel ) .

Ray - will try and get some names for you ( I no longer live in S.A. ) .
Perhaps John Disney could help ( with some names of hedged S.A. gold
mining companies ) . The only South African gold company that I hold is
apparently about 50% hedged ( Joel ) .

Thanks Lan Man - I'm selling tomorrow!

Thanks Lan Man - I'm selling tomorrow!

Ray and John Disney, thanks for the information!

Ray and John Disney, thanks for the information!

These are very strange times and its very difficult to
find an answer.
On one side, the markets ( At least the Major Stocks ) are
doing extremely well.
On the other hand, I see young homeless families standing
on street corner's, with their "Will work for Food
Sign's".
Last summer while on jury duty and walking in from my
parking area, I seen homeless people arising from their
nights sleep from every parking lot on the way to the
courthouse. The politicians love this, as it gives them
a platform to create a little fear, and subsequent power.
Thing's are not so good, but the government statistics
say otherwise. What hell is going on?

These are very strange times and its very difficult to
find an answer.
On one side, the markets ( At least the Major Stocks ) are
doing extremely well.
On the other hand, I see young homeless families standing
on street corner's, with their "Will work for Food
Sign's".
Last summer while on jury duty and walking in from my
parking area, I seen homeless people arising from their
nights sleep from every parking lot on the way to the
courthouse. The politicians love this, as it gives them
a platform to create a little fear, and subsequent power.
Thing's are not so good, but the government statistics
say otherwise. What hell is going on?

Jack: You're right. Foreigners are going to bare the brunt of US financial losses. In the past, countries had to pledge gold instead of paper. Why foreign central banks have taken US paper in such large numbers is still a mystery. They must have more faith in our government than deserved. They will learn that our government has continually broken its monetary promises. Examples -- 1862, 1933, 1971, next time?

Jack: You're right. Foreigners are going to bare the brunt of US financial losses. In the past, countries had to pledge gold instead of paper. Why foreign central banks have taken US paper in such large numbers is still a mystery. They must have more faith in our government than deserved. They will learn that our government has continually broken its monetary promises. Examples -- 1862, 1933, 1971, next time?

Regarding wages and gold: Wages and gold have never had any direct link. There is no logical reason for them to have such a link. Traditionally, paper notes had been receipts for gold. That is why the relationship between the amount of paper in circulation and the amount of gold warehoused is critical. Over-issued gold receipts always led to bank-runs and Treasury-runs, which led to financial collapse. The over-issuance of financial paper in 1997 is one of the most extreme ever. That's why I believe gold must rise to at least $5000. Maybe even as high as $10,000 or $20,000.

Regarding wages and gold: Wages and gold have never had any direct link. There is no logical reason for them to have such a link. Traditionally, paper notes had been receipts for gold. That is why the relationship between the amount of paper in circulation and the amount of gold warehoused is critical. Over-issued gold receipts always led to bank-runs and Treasury-runs, which led to financial collapse. The over-issuance of financial paper in 1997 is one of the most extreme ever. That's why I believe gold must rise to at least $5000. Maybe even as high as $10,000 or $20,000.

PANDA & MOONEY & TED & TARNISHED:

PANDA: Just ot let you know that you were dead on about the rise in Pal and Plat affecting the price of Oils. Apparently, they are used in the creation of High Grade gasoline. Thanks for the insite.

MOONEY: Congrats friend and take the next 25 one at a time... You know the strain the first 25 caused and you are getting older !! ( :- )

TED: Congrats on the 17 this year .... ROOKIE !!! ( :- )

TARNISHED: Isn't ti wonderful that the truly GREAT hockey players like SteveyY come from ONTARIO ! AND yes, they really do have Cehnehdehiehn citizenship even if they're born in BC ! ( :- )


TTFN

PANDA & MOONEY & TED & TARNISHED:

PANDA: Just ot let you know that you were dead on about the rise in Pal and Plat affecting the price of Oils. Apparently, they are used in the creation of High Grade gasoline. Thanks for the insite.

MOONEY: Congrats friend and take the next 25 one at a time... You know the strain the first 25 caused and you are getting older !! ( :- )

TED: Congrats on the 17 this year .... ROOKIE !!! ( :- )

TARNISHED: Isn't ti wonderful that the truly GREAT hockey players like SteveyY come from ONTARIO ! AND yes, they really do have Cehnehdehiehn citizenship even if they're born in BC ! ( :- )


TTFN

Wages vs Gold per oz cost might be misleading. Productivity, technology, etc, may have drastically altered our incomes relative to purchasing power of times past. We may all be better off. What is more to the point, perhaps, is what an ounce of gold will buy you. When an oz was $20 it bought ( roughly ) a decent man's suit, a nite out for a couple of couples at a nice restaurant, & perhaps a show, Or a few days at a modestly decent hotel. A $350 ounce of gold seems to do the same trick these days. If we're making more money, then it means we have more ounces of gold to enjoy. There has to be SOME progress in the Human Condition, eh? But gold has proven constant. What can you buy with a $20 bill????

Wages vs Gold per oz cost might be misleading. Productivity, technology, etc, may have drastically altered our incomes relative to purchasing power of times past. We may all be better off. What is more to the point, perhaps, is what an ounce of gold will buy you. When an oz was $20 it bought ( roughly ) a decent man's suit, a nite out for a couple of couples at a nice restaurant, & perhaps a show, Or a few days at a modestly decent hotel. A $350 ounce of gold seems to do the same trick these days. If we're making more money, then it means we have more ounces of gold to enjoy. There has to be SOME progress in the Human Condition, eh? But gold has proven constant. What can you buy with a $20 bill????

Jack: Regarding strange times. We must distingish between the financial condition of the US and the economic condition. The economic numbers that show consumption, production, and employment look great. The financial numbers look terrible. Bankruptcies are at all-time highs. Credit-card delinquencies are at records. People are borrowing to consume, but they can't pay their bills. This is an ominous sign.

Jack: Regarding strange times. We must distingish between the financial condition of the US and the economic condition. The economic numbers that show consumption, production, and employment look great. The financial numbers look terrible. Bankruptcies are at all-time highs. Credit-card delinquencies are at records. People are borrowing to consume, but they can't pay their bills. This is an ominous sign.

Front ( 18:47 ) Thanks Bro!...She must be a glutton fer punishment....eh...
No more hockey for a while and will have to go and try and find a life..
MGraves: Wayne and the boys would have put up a better fight than Lingross and the Flyboys....and to think Eric thought he was too good fer Quebec....

Front ( 18:47 ) Thanks Bro!...She must be a glutton fer punishment....eh...
No more hockey for a while and will have to go and try and find a life..
MGraves: Wayne and the boys would have put up a better fight than Lingross and the Flyboys....and to think Eric thought he was too good fer Quebec....

Steve: Foreign Central Banks have taken such large amounts of US paper because the chairmen and directors of these international institutions act as a club among themselves. They have become more and more brazen in the manner in which they flaunt economic, market, and metaphysical reality. They have become emboldened to do what they do by the ignorance and declining standards of the mass of people, the press, and the economic professions themselves. And they do this all as though they were public servants smoothing the road that elected officials seem to be paving for us all. They are deluded, but we will all eventually suffer. Even an erstwhile ardent objectivist like Alan Greenspan has been lured into participation in the charade. The rubber band must needs stretch to breaking point. When it snaps, it will be most comforting to own some gold.

Steve: Foreign Central Banks have taken such large amounts of US paper because the chairmen and directors of these international institutions act as a club among themselves. They have become more and more brazen in the manner in which they flaunt economic, market, and metaphysical reality. They have become emboldened to do what they do by the ignorance and declining standards of the mass of people, the press, and the economic professions themselves. And they do this all as though they were public servants smoothing the road that elected officials seem to be paving for us all. They are deluded, but we will all eventually suffer. Even an erstwhile ardent objectivist like Alan Greenspan has been lured into participation in the charade. The rubber band must needs stretch to breaking point. When it snaps, it will be most comforting to own some gold.

Steve Puetz: In relation to gold mining companies:
How do you see those companies with good current assets,
some in the form of bullion and having successful
production track records ( profits and/or cash flow ) , with
small to very small current liabilities?
I know that blue sky puts cash into the coffers of many
companies, by way of new issues, but the companies that I
like have some blue sky, but seem to want real results
before they decide the route they will take.

Steve Puetz: In relation to gold mining companies:
How do you see those companies with good current assets,
some in the form of bullion and having successful
production track records ( profits and/or cash flow ) , with
small to very small current liabilities?
I know that blue sky puts cash into the coffers of many
companies, by way of new issues, but the companies that I
like have some blue sky, but seem to want real results
before they decide the route they will take.

Captain Bill at THE PRIVATEEER reports that gold appears to have bottomed in Austalian dollars. He is not sure that gold has troughed in U.S. dollars terms, but points out that the the yellow stuff tends to make a final low in Australian dollars before troughing in terms of greenbacks.

bw: I happen to have an arithmetic chart of the Dow since 1900. I get a nosebleed every time I look at it. Yes, 1000 is very nice support. This is the most incredible chart I think I've seen since gold went parabolic in '79. Rydex Ursa fund, anyone?

bw: I happen to have an arithmetic chart of the Dow since 1900. I get a nosebleed every time I look at it. Yes, 1000 is very nice support. This is the most incredible chart I think I've seen since gold went parabolic in '79. Rydex Ursa fund, anyone?

Captain Bill at THE PRIVATEEER reports that gold appears to have bottomed in Austalian dollars. He is not sure that gold has troughed in U.S. dollars terms, but points out that the the yellow stuff tends to make a final low in Australian dollars before troughing in terms of greenbacks.

I will tell you, after reading Ted Butler at gold eagle and The Privateer
A GUY COULD ALMOST GET EXCITED

TALLY HO

I will tell you, after reading Ted Butler at gold eagle and The Privateer
A GUY COULD ALMOST GET EXCITED

TALLY HO

World shattering metals report gives reason for Platinum & Palladium strength. It proves why same explosive price rise in Gold & Silver will occur - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

World shattering metals report gives reason for Platinum & Palladium strength. It proves why same explosive price rise in Gold & Silver will occur - Please RELOAD Digest page:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest.html

George S. Cole @ 19:10- Re: Australian Dollar vs.
Gold: Is this the bottom you have been
anticipating? What are the things to keep an eye on
now?

George S. Cole @ 19:10- Re: Australian Dollar vs.
Gold: Is this the bottom you have been
anticipating? What are the things to keep an eye on
now?

Have no fear, we are here to help you on your trip to
UTOPIA. BUBBA has given us his word and we are
responsible.

Have no fear, we are here to help you on your trip to
UTOPIA. BUBBA has given us his word and we are
responsible.

Off topic: Would one of you living in B.C. mention a few lines about taxes and cost of living in Vancouver? I've got a contract situation there for good money - but I am wondering just how much the Cnanadian gov. will want. Might be better off living in this North Texas tornado infest, dusty hell. Thanks, Spud.

Off topic: Would one of you living in B.C. mention a few lines about taxes and cost of living in Vancouver? I've got a contract situation there for good money - but I am wondering just how much the Cnanadian gov. will want. Might be better off living in this North Texas tornado infest, dusty hell. Thanks, Spud.

ps - sorry for the spelling errors in previous post - busy dodging twisters and sneezing : )

ps - sorry for the spelling errors in previous post - busy dodging twisters and sneezing : )

Mike Sheller 19:02: I reread that post 3 times and I still don't know how you did it; but you managed to speak whole volumes in one paragraph. Gently and succintly at the same time. Outstanding!

Mike Sheller 19:02: I reread that post 3 times and I still don't know how you did it; but you managed to speak whole volumes in one paragraph. Gently and succintly at the same time. Outstanding!

Jack: If you bought an oz at $20 in 1930 and had put $20 in the bank the same day how many ozs could you buy with it today?

Jack: If you bought an oz at $20 in 1930 and had put $20 in the bank the same day how many ozs could you buy with it today?

Mike Sheller @ 19:02- Well done. Deserves a spot at
Vronsky's.

Mike Sheller @ 19:02- Well done. Deserves a spot at
Vronsky's.

Speed thank you for your post 08:33. I agree there are other influences on the "paper" cost of gold. As a commodity, the jewelry producers are the largest influence of Price and Consumption of the yellow metal. Consumption is the key because most people are not going to melt down their jewelry in bad times. If we take Joe consumer out of the game all we are doing is moving gold from one vault to another storage vault and not taking it out of circulation.

Steve: I like silver!

Speed thank you for your post 08:33. I agree there are other influences on the "paper" cost of gold. As a commodity, the jewelry producers are the largest influence of Price and Consumption of the yellow metal. Consumption is the key because most people are not going to melt down their jewelry in bad times. If we take Joe consumer out of the game all we are doing is moving gold from one vault to another storage vault and not taking it out of circulation.

Steve: I like silver!

Fundy: If you put $20 in the bank in 1930 at a constant 4%, compounded annually, you couldn't buy one ounce of gold! You would only have $276.86. You couldn't get 4% for most of that period on such a small amount, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. This is why bonds are such a crummy deal by the way!

Fundy: If you put $20 in the bank in 1930 at a constant 4%, compounded annually, you couldn't buy one ounce of gold! You would only have $276.86. You couldn't get 4% for most of that period on such a small amount, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. This is why bonds are such a crummy deal by the way!

Could be interesting for gold tomorrow...EBN Markets has Dollar down more than one percent ( 113.46 ) versus the Japanese Yen...Is repatriation far away?

Could be interesting for gold tomorrow...EBN Markets has Dollar down more than one percent ( 113.46 ) versus the Japanese Yen...Is repatriation far away?

Are some markets closed this evening? EBN commodities page doesn't seem to be updating.

ALL.... 20 years ago today silver closed @ US$4.45/oz. spot

ALL.... 20 years ago today silver closed @ US$4.45/oz. spot

Are some markets closed this evening? EBN commodities page doesn't seem to be updating.

Somebody please explain to me and Mr. Bear why jewelry people don't control the price of gold. I have an intuitive grasp of derivatives, and paper leverage, but don't feel comfortable attempting to debate. Also, please explain what happens when the leverage goes awry and the multiplier effect explodes the bullion price upward.

Somebody please explain to me and Mr. Bear why jewelry people don't control the price of gold. I have an intuitive grasp of derivatives, and paper leverage, but don't feel comfortable attempting to debate. Also, please explain what happens when the leverage goes awry and the multiplier effect explodes the bullion price upward.

How are Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Singapore doing?

How are Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Singapore doing?

Was it that badly overpriced then, or is it that badly underpriced today ???????????? It only went to US$45.00 in the next couple of years. HUMMMM

Was it that badly overpriced then, or is it that badly underpriced today ???????????? It only went to US$45.00 in the next couple of years. HUMMMM

Mike Sheller: When the rubber-band snaps, it will be comforting to have all assets in gold and silver. The increasing rate of bankruptcies, defaults, and delinquencies ( all into record high territory ) suggests that the financial rubber-band is ready to snap any day.

Mike Sheller: When the rubber-band snaps, it will be comforting to have all assets in gold and silver. The increasing rate of bankruptcies, defaults, and delinquencies ( all into record high territory ) suggests that the financial rubber-band is ready to snap any day.

Inco is the world's largest producer of platinum group metals outside South Africa and Russia, providing about three percent of world supply.

Also,

IF platinum prices affect the oil complex, I think it will be seen in gasoline and not crude prices. Platimum is used 'post crude' in the refining process to increase the octane value of gasoline ( they call it "platforming" ) .

Inco is the world's largest producer of platinum group metals outside South Africa and Russia, providing about three percent of world supply.

Also,

IF platinum prices affect the oil complex, I think it will be seen in gasoline and not crude prices. Platimum is used 'post crude' in the refining process to increase the octane value of gasoline ( they call it "platforming" ) .

That's a very interesting question, Ken. Can we get back to it after the break? We'll get back to Ken's question right after this message for Ginsana.

p.s. How about "Luv your show"? or "Thanks for taking my call"?

Jack: In normal times, gold mining shares should rise with gold bullion. My greatest concern now is that our credit-based financial system is collapsing. In this case, what will bankers do to mines that are heavily indebted? What will the government do tax-wise if gold mines are the only companies making a profit? I believe coins offer a higher level of safety than gold-shares, under these circumstances, even though the shares may also rise.

Jack: In normal times, gold mining shares should rise with gold bullion. My greatest concern now is that our credit-based financial system is collapsing. In this case, what will bankers do to mines that are heavily indebted? What will the government do tax-wise if gold mines are the only companies making a profit? I believe coins offer a higher level of safety than gold-shares, under these circumstances, even though the shares may also rise.

That's a very interesting question, Ken. Can we get back to it after the break? We'll get back to Ken's question right after this message for Ginsana.

p.s. How about "Luv your show"? or "Thanks for taking my call"?

According to http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.htm gold and silver up smartly in the U. S. pm hours. No word on platinum.

speed -- In the last few days I have heard the phrase, "The forward markets have collapsed in palladium...", and nobody seems bothered by it! The forward markets are the futures markets. Clearly, derivatives can implode and no one could give a damn, except for my college professors of course! Thet would have flunked me out of school. :- ) )

Apparently, this is one school that you cannot flunk out of! That is, if you are the 'right' students! Think of the implications of what we are witnessing right now. The paper market isn't working in palladium. Debtors ( shorts ) are being given more time to pay their debt back. Clearly, a default has taken place before our eyes, except, that it hasn't, because that would be in bad taste. ;- ) ) George Orwell, where are you! Speak to me from the nether world!

Earl, here it is !! Ted: you've gotta sun burned seagull !!

Earl, here it is !! Ted: you've gotta sun burned seagull !!

speed -- In the last few days I have heard the phrase, "The forward markets have collapsed in palladium...", and nobody seems bothered by it! The forward markets are the futures markets. Clearly, derivatives can implode and no one could give a damn, except for my college professors of course! Thet would have flunked me out of school. :- ) )

Apparently, this is one school that you cannot flunk out of! That is, if you are the 'right' students! Think of the implications of what we are witnessing right now. The paper market isn't working in palladium. Debtors ( shorts ) are being given more time to pay their debt back. Clearly, a default has taken place before our eyes, except, that it hasn't, because that would be in bad taste. ;- ) ) George Orwell, where are you! Speak to me from the nether world!

According to http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.htm gold and silver up smartly in the U. S. pm hours. No word on platinum.

Jazz need a rally in the second half to tie the series. Bulls up about 5 at halftime. Ted, are you out there? I'll send pony express later.

Jazz need a rally in the second half to tie the series. Bulls up about 5 at halftime. Ted, are you out there? I'll send pony express later.

Mr. Bear: I have no quarrels with you. I also believe silver coins are a better buy than gold coins. But both will do very well. The Bellmont got the order in reverse yesterday. Silver will be most charming, gold will be a touch behind. However, for wealthy investors, the portability of gold, and its image, makes it the preffered investment. Poor-man's-gold -- silver -- will outperform just because it is more undervalued than gold right now. When I say gold, by default, I usually mean both gold and silver. They both have a long monetary history.

Mr. Bear: I have no quarrels with you. I also believe silver coins are a better buy than gold coins. But both will do very well. The Bellmont got the order in reverse yesterday. Silver will be most charming, gold will be a touch behind. However, for wealthy investors, the portability of gold, and its image, makes it the preffered investment. Poor-man's-gold -- silver -- will outperform just because it is more undervalued than gold right now. When I say gold, by default, I usually mean both gold and silver. They both have a long monetary history.

Tortfeasor: Is there any good source of overnight quotes on the Internet? The Dollar is falling against the Yen, gold and silver are up. How about S&P 500 futures?

Tortfeasor: Is there any good source of overnight quotes on the Internet? The Dollar is falling against the Yen, gold and silver are up. How about S&P 500 futures?

Headline in the Chicago Sun-Times for Friday: "Hospital swallows $1 billion worth of debt"

- this debt was accumulated from 8 years of patient defaults. This money has to be made up by Cook County taxpayers. A few more of these and the Steve Puetz scenerio may be upon us!

Fundy:

If you had put your twenty dollars in a German, Japanese or Italian bank or many others you would have 0. Just because the USA has come out on the right side of a few world wars and has by and large been the most stable and powerful country over the last 70 years doesn't mean this will always be so. While I don't mean to suggest that the downfall of the US is immenent, the stability of the banking system worldwide is in some doubt. The outcome might not be catastrophic in an economic sense, but it may well be so for bond holders. There are any number of countries that may find it easier to just walk from their debts. The South Americans did it en masse not too long ago, why not the Italians, the Belgians, or even gasp, the Japanese.

Holding gold or other physical commodities is just a hedge. The relative value of these things remains fairly constant over intermediate time with relation to the cost of other goods and services. As an investment vehicle, one would hope that the value would appreciate with respect to other goods and services. The case can be made that some commodities are extremely inexpensive based on a number of fundamental concerns. Silver, for one seems to fit well in this category. The grapevine is starting to buzz with respect to this one. It is not a time to be short.

Early levels in the Pa market are 200 - 250. Looks like Nasdaq market makers.

Kansas City? I was asking about the Far East.

Kansas City? I was asking about the Far East.

Fundy:

If you had put your twenty dollars in a German, Japanese or Italian bank or many others you would have 0. Just because the USA has come out on the right side of a few world wars and has by and large been the most stable and powerful country over the last 70 years doesn't mean this will always be so. While I don't mean to suggest that the downfall of the US is immenent, the stability of the banking system worldwide is in some doubt. The outcome might not be catastrophic in an economic sense, but it may well be so for bond holders. There are any number of countries that may find it easier to just walk from their debts. The South Americans did it en masse not too long ago, why not the Italians, the Belgians, or even gasp, the Japanese.

Holding gold or other physical commodities is just a hedge. The relative value of these things remains fairly constant over intermediate time with relation to the cost of other goods and services. As an investment vehicle, one would hope that the value would appreciate with respect to other goods and services. The case can be made that some commodities are extremely inexpensive based on a number of fundamental concerns. Silver, for one seems to fit well in this category. The grapevine is starting to buzz with respect to this one. It is not a time to be short.

Early levels in the Pa market are 200 - 250. Looks like Nasdaq market makers.

Headline in the Chicago Sun-Times for Friday: "Hospital swallows $1 billion worth of debt"

- this debt was accumulated from 8 years of patient defaults. This money has to be made up by Cook County taxpayers. A few more of these and the Steve Puetz scenerio may be upon us!

Steve P. - Where would you recommend purchase Silver Maple Leafs and other gold and silver coins ( U.S. and Aussie equivalents ) . I live in the U.S.? Thanks for any help.

Looks like it's anti-american night overseas, U.S dollar taking a pounding or should I say a Yenning. Gold and Silver up !!!

Looks like it's anti-american night overseas, U.S dollar taking a pounding or should I say a Yenning. Gold and Silver up !!!

Steve P. - Where would you recommend purchase Silver Maple Leafs and other gold and silver coins ( U.S. and Aussie equivalents ) . I live in the U.S.? Thanks for any help.

Steve Puetz -- I agree with your assertion that 'tangibles' in your hands are the best form of 'insurance'. The world is piecewise linear. We will not go to stratopheric heights in one day. Initial disbelief in the movement in the metals, as seen in palladium, then a 'hmmm', and in to mining shares they go. Once the metals move up sufficiently, the incremental profit increase, slows markedly in the mining companies.

What most are looking for, IMHO, is the added initial leverage available through options, futures, and stocks. If things are perceived as heading too far 'south', the physical will be the only place to be. If there are any doubters, just look at the palladium 'forward markets' and judge for yourself. The 'final' outcome here, will be very interesting indeed.

Rhodium anybody?

Steve Puetz -- I agree with your assertion that 'tangibles' in your hands are the best form of 'insurance'. The world is piecewise linear. We will not go to stratopheric heights in one day. Initial disbelief in the movement in the metals, as seen in palladium, then a 'hmmm', and in to mining shares they go. Once the metals move up sufficiently, the incremental profit increase, slows markedly in the mining companies.

What most are looking for, IMHO, is the added initial leverage available through options, futures, and stocks. If things are perceived as heading too far 'south', the physical will be the only place to be. If there are any doubters, just look at the palladium 'forward markets' and judge for yourself. The 'final' outcome here, will be very interesting indeed.

Rhodium anybody?

Steve Puetz : go http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

Steve Puetz : go http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals. Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals. Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

Is this news? Can this be true?
  Now that the discount bid at spot is running 3 or 4 to one
you can be real sure retail isnt going to reach for it! They would
start a free for all! But they have to bid, it isnt going to come
from the sky. No wonder the big holders are standing
down! How are they going to handle the paper that the Asians
are trying to sell? Thats a good one, because they hold physical
to paper at 20 to 1 and spot will go thru the roof if they dump it!
Well, with a roll-over of most existing deals being the only option, a
good deal of old forward gold paper will be put on the street
at whatever price. Nobody is going to pay par for this stuff when
it was written at a premium to spot during a much higher price.
And now that new supply cant be pulled from retail to cover the
paper the writers are the only bidders for their own stuff. But if
any of it trades at a big discount, its going to hammer whats left
to the point that the banks will call the loans! If one big boy
grabs the physical during the next month or so itll take the
whole thing down.  

Is this news? Can this be true?
  Now that the discount bid at spot is running 3 or 4 to one
you can be real sure retail isnt going to reach for it! They would
start a free for all! But they have to bid, it isnt going to come
from the sky. No wonder the big holders are standing
down! How are they going to handle the paper that the Asians
are trying to sell? Thats a good one, because they hold physical
to paper at 20 to 1 and spot will go thru the roof if they dump it!
Well, with a roll-over of most existing deals being the only option, a
good deal of old forward gold paper will be put on the street
at whatever price. Nobody is going to pay par for this stuff when
it was written at a premium to spot during a much higher price.
And now that new supply cant be pulled from retail to cover the
paper the writers are the only bidders for their own stuff. But if
any of it trades at a big discount, its going to hammer whats left
to the point that the banks will call the loans! If one big boy
grabs the physical during the next month or so itll take the
whole thing down.  

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals. Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals. Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

Tortfeasor -- Just what I needed, another bookmark! :- ) )

Tortfeasor -- Just what I needed, another bookmark! :- ) )

Steve Puetz: Try http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

For Chicago futures prices around the clock. Japanese Yen UP against the USD, Swiss and Mark less so. S&P's and currencies at this site.

I've enjoyed your essays very much, Steve. Your thinking is sharp, but after the Leviathan Bull rally on Friday it looks like it will take yet more time to happen. My friend in the bond pits here has suggested that the Chinese were big buyers of T-bonds on Friday ( there was also alot of short covering ) . If the Chinese have been coerced to buy U.S. debt ( amazing -- the Chinese are usually not effectively bullied on anything ) then Clinton's imperial cycle of high budget and trade deficits, balanced by high speculative inflows can continue. I'm going to stop betting against this stock market until I can see that interest for U.S. debt has dried up.

Steve Puetz: Try http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

For Chicago futures prices around the clock. Japanese Yen UP against the USD, Swiss and Mark less so. S&P's and currencies at this site.

I've enjoyed your essays very much, Steve. Your thinking is sharp, but after the Leviathan Bull rally on Friday it looks like it will take yet more time to happen. My friend in the bond pits here has suggested that the Chinese were big buyers of T-bonds on Friday ( there was also alot of short covering ) . If the Chinese have been coerced to buy U.S. debt ( amazing -- the Chinese are usually not effectively bullied on anything ) then Clinton's imperial cycle of high budget and trade deficits, balanced by high speculative inflows can continue. I'm going to stop betting against this stock market until I can see that interest for U.S. debt has dried up.

Organ: The only difference this time is that defaults are occurring at a time when the economic stats are good. Unemployment is low, consumer confidence is high. That's why it's important to differentiate between economic stats and financial stats. The financial situation is collapsing globally.

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses ( major stock and/or bond collapses ) could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals ( thence no major move upwards ) . Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

ALL....One thing most have omitted....While I am a proponent of the "grassroots" movement in gold and silver ( many own instead of few as in the past ) most of you project a majical upwards movement which will look like an immediate upwards prolonged movement on the charts....That will not happen ( barring calamity ) . Major stops must be made along the way to absorb the massive physicals bought lower in the grassroots effort and sold at various benchmarks along the way...They are taking their profits along the way until most of that is reclaimed into the strong hands...Paper collapses ( major stock and/or bond collapses ) could prevent that from happening.... i.e. no cash to repurchase the "grassroots" metals ( thence no major move upwards ) . Think again.. Do you really want a paper collapse ???? NOT ME...Give me the ebb and flow of the usual cyclial economy, thank you !!!!! I would like to do it as I did in 1980 and again in 1982/83.....

Organ: The only difference this time is that defaults are occurring at a time when the economic stats are good. Unemployment is low, consumer confidence is high. That's why it's important to differentiate between economic stats and financial stats. The financial situation is collapsing globally.

Two long-established precious-metals dealers are Investment Rarities in Minneapolis, MN ( headed by Jim Cook ) @ 800-328-1860 and Blanchard Metals ( headed by Jim Blanchard ) @ 800-880-4653. I think Jim Cook is a little more honest than Jim Blanchard, though. Although they are both good businessmen.

Two long-established precious-metals dealers are Investment Rarities in Minneapolis, MN ( headed by Jim Cook ) @ 800-328-1860 and Blanchard Metals ( headed by Jim Blanchard ) @ 800-880-4653. I think Jim Cook is a little more honest than Jim Blanchard, though. Although they are both good businessmen.

One of US best-known Analysts in last 20 years, James Dines, shares bullish report on Platinum & Palladium - & their impact on Gold. He likes Stillwater Mining. See Editorials:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials.html

One of US best-known Analysts in last 20 years, James Dines, shares bullish report on Platinum & Palladium - & their impact on Gold. He likes Stillwater Mining. See Editorials:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials.html

Steve Peutz @ 20:53- If I read Ted Butler, you, and
John Templeton correcly, those who are holding gold
now should hold on to it? I just bought a
s---load!

Steve Peutz @ 20:53- If I read Ted Butler, you, and
John Templeton correcly, those who are holding gold
now should hold on to it? I just bought a
s---load!

Physicals are being affected by spreaders. ( See Barron's article this week-end ) Gold-platinum spreaders sold platinum - bought gold. They are getting margin calls, and liquidating. This action is temporarily pushing up platinum, and holding down gold. Once the spreads are unwound, gold will begin to skyrocket as well.

Physicals are being affected by spreaders. ( See Barron's article this week-end ) Gold-platinum spreaders sold platinum - bought gold. They are getting margin calls, and liquidating. This action is temporarily pushing up platinum, and holding down gold. Once the spreads are unwound, gold will begin to skyrocket as well.

NJ, Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

NJ, Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

May I recommend "The History of Money", by Jack Weatherford, a financial anthropologist. Start with chapter 6, The Golden Curse, then read the whole book front to back. Very interesting development of the evolution of money; man created it in all its evolutionary forms, but our society is also being recreated by it. Interestingly, in a very broad sense, it covers the generally same territory as "The Sovereign Individual", which I have been trying to read since Strad recommended it. Sovereign is so depressing that I keep putting it down; The History of Money was such fun I kept picking it up. Both see the end of nation-based paper money as we have known it, replaced by stateless international cyberfinance, in a system that requires new skills and flexibility. But Weatherford has no ax to grind or service to sell, while the authors of "The Sovereign Individual" do. I view the latter book with great scepticism.
Incidentally, the displacement of paper money by cyber-finance leaves little likelihood of a return to gold money, which was previously replaced by paper. In some respects, our goldbug point of view is doubly outdated if we expect gold ever to serve as a recognized medium of exchange again, except as any other commodity might, for specific uses. Much food for thought.

May I recommend "The History of Money", by Jack Weatherford, a financial anthropologist. Start with chapter 6, The Golden Curse, then read the whole book front to back. Very interesting development of the evolution of money; man created it in all its evolutionary forms, but our society is also being recreated by it. Interestingly, in a very broad sense, it covers the generally same territory as "The Sovereign Individual", which I have been trying to read since Strad recommended it. Sovereign is so depressing that I keep putting it down; The History of Money was such fun I kept picking it up. Both see the end of nation-based paper money as we have known it, replaced by stateless international cyberfinance, in a system that requires new skills and flexibility. But Weatherford has no ax to grind or service to sell, while the authors of "The Sovereign Individual" do. I view the latter book with great scepticism.
Incidentally, the displacement of paper money by cyber-finance leaves little likelihood of a return to gold money, which was previously replaced by paper. In some respects, our goldbug point of view is doubly outdated if we expect gold ever to serve as a recognized medium of exchange again, except as any other commodity might, for specific uses. Much food for thought.

Steve I personally like pre 1965 90% junk. Each coin contains 90% silver and 10% alloy . $1,000.00 face value contains 714 oz of content in pure silver. If you are taking delivery this is the cheapest way to own silver.
You can buy the silver for a few cents below spot and delivery runs about $26.47 US mail insured for each 714 oz.

Steve I personally like pre 1965 90% junk. Each coin contains 90% silver and 10% alloy . $1,000.00 face value contains 714 oz of content in pure silver. If you are taking delivery this is the cheapest way to own silver.
You can buy the silver for a few cents below spot and delivery runs about $26.47 US mail insured for each 714 oz.

Puetz, Cole, Speed, Vronsky, Bear, Mike Sheller, others
Perhaps just a curiosity, but lately Mining Stocks have behaved as if they were the empathetic housewife in the household "Gold". You've got to picture Gold as a tempermental Tenor who moves about his house singing Italian Operas. When Gold moves upstairs to the balcony, into higher atmospheres, in search of cleaner more rarified airs, she whiplashes aside Gold, stands on his sholders and does somethig akin to a victory jig for the listening impaired up there for all the neighbors to see, least there be any doubt as to her husbands mood. She intends to amplify.
When Gold's mood darkens, his temper slouches, she's to be found clutching at Gold's ankles, sobbing, and cannot be consoled. Gold can be seen dragging her across the "linoleum", as we speak... will somebody please call the police,,,
If and when, in all probability "when" is the operand, when Gold makes a move, I would predict the same or similar habit by this sensitive damsel. Mining stocks can be said to ride the whip of golds movement. The two are inextricably related, and of late this has been their relationship. At least thats what the neighbors have been saying. Hedges and hysterics aside the jist of what I'm saying here is the rule rather than the exception.
Hope I've got this site right,,,primitive but true, lately,,,
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ssan/goldpric.htm
And as for Silver,,, Sheller called it months ago, now you players out there can either ride or watch. Surf's goin' ta be up in the next 30 days. You can either catch the Kahuna you've been waiting for, or stay on the beach with your Polariods,,,let the ears listen.

Puetz, Cole, Speed, Vronsky, Bear, Mike Sheller, others
Perhaps just a curiosity, but lately Mining Stocks have behaved as if they were the empathetic housewife in the household "Gold". You've got to picture Gold as a tempermental Tenor who moves about his house singing Italian Operas. When Gold moves upstairs to the balcony, into higher atmospheres, in search of cleaner more rarified airs, she whiplashes aside Gold, stands on his sholders and does somethig akin to a victory jig for the listening impaired up there for all the neighbors to see, least there be any doubt as to her husbands mood. She intends to amplify.
When Gold's mood darkens, his temper slouches, she's to be found clutching at Gold's ankles, sobbing, and cannot be consoled. Gold can be seen dragging her across the "linoleum", as we speak... will somebody please call the police,,,
If and when, in all probability "when" is the operand, when Gold makes a move, I would predict the same or similar habit by this sensitive damsel. Mining stocks can be said to ride the whip of golds movement. The two are inextricably related, and of late this has been their relationship. At least thats what the neighbors have been saying. Hedges and hysterics aside the jist of what I'm saying here is the rule rather than the exception.
Hope I've got this site right,,,primitive but true, lately,,,
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ssan/goldpric.htm
And as for Silver,,, Sheller called it months ago, now you players out there can either ride or watch. Surf's goin' ta be up in the next 30 days. You can either catch the Kahuna you've been waiting for, or stay on the beach with your Polariods,,,let the ears listen.

MR. BEAR - You may have mentioned before. Where do you get these
prices on junk silver?

MR. BEAR - You may have mentioned before. Where do you get these
prices on junk silver?

All:

The latest rumor that I have heard on the silver market has one fund short to the tune of about 60MM oz. Stops are supposedly somewhere around 490 - 500 basis July. Combine this with another rumor of a large OTC option expiring soon at $5.00 and the potential for fireworks is large. Who knows whats fact or whats fiction, reality is that lease rates are jumping and someone or many are bidding aggressively for physical metal.

Last quotes I have in Pa are 215 - 250, Pl 470 - 510. Yen trading around 113. August gold around 347.10.

All:

The latest rumor that I have heard on the silver market has one fund short to the tune of about 60MM oz. Stops are supposedly somewhere around 490 - 500 basis July. Combine this with another rumor of a large OTC option expiring soon at $5.00 and the potential for fireworks is large. Who knows whats fact or whats fiction, reality is that lease rates are jumping and someone or many are bidding aggressively for physical metal.

Last quotes I have in Pa are 215 - 250, Pl 470 - 510. Yen trading around 113. August gold around 347.10.

Steve Puetz - In your opinion. Which is better Junk Silver, Silver
Eagle Coins or Collectable Coins?

Why?

BTW I really enjoy reading your column at Gold Eagle.
How about an article on silver?

Steve Puetz - In your opinion. Which is better Junk Silver, Silver
Eagle Coins or Collectable Coins?

Why?

BTW I really enjoy reading your column at Gold Eagle.
How about an article on silver?

Kid Silver
http://www.tradeshop.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/raylc/ajpm/silver.cgi

Kid Silver
http://www.tradeshop.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/raylc/ajpm/silver.cgi

I sure do miss the old gold and silver price board that used to grace the top of this page.

I sure do miss the old gold and silver price board that used to grace the top of this page.

Jazz come back and win. Mailman delivers big time. Series tied 2-2. Now its time for gold to come back and win.

Stockton and Malone ... go on with your bad selves!

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

As featured in the Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, CBC, Forbes
Magazine, etc.

http://www.arcticspirit.com/bre-x.html

Stockton and Malone ... go on with your bad selves!

Jazz come back and win. Mailman delivers big time. Series tied 2-2. Now its time for gold to come back and win.

Sadly, I, too, miss the old gold and silver board posted here. Can it not be added onto these quotes for palladium and platinum?? Anyways, I thought this was a forum to primarily discuss Gold!

Sadly, I, too, miss the old gold and silver board posted here. Can it not be added onto these quotes for palladium and platinum?? Anyways, I thought this was a forum to primarily discuss Gold!

D.A., Bungles happen in high places. Brei cheese is
very "in" these days.

D.A., Bungles happen in high places. Brei cheese is
very "in" these days.

Thanks ( I'll definitely check out Blanchard ... I have some information some where ) . Do you have any comments ( or anyone else ) about Monex?

Thanks ( I'll definitely check out Blanchard ... I have some information some where ) . Do you have any comments ( or anyone else ) about Monex?

I miss the gold and silver ticker too! I hope it is just a temporary thing. All on one ticker would be nice.

I miss the gold and silver ticker too! I hope it is just a temporary thing. All on one ticker would be nice.

Steve Puetz- your info on Jim Blanchard is incorrect. His company is
Jefferson Coin and Bullion, Jefferson Financial 800-877-8847.
He sold Blanchard & Co. several years ago to GE.

Tally Ho

Anybody have any word on platinum prices this evening or is Europe and the USA the only ones who need the white stuff? Since I imagine Ted is celebrating the Jazz whoop'n of the Bulls with a bit of brew I thought he could use the following story.

Two drunks are driving down the highway, drinking their beer. All of a
sudden the driver notices lights flashing in his mirror; the cops are on
his tail.

His buddy says, "What are we going to do?" The driver says, "Don't
worry. Just do exactly what I tell you and everything will work out
perfectly.

First, peel the labels off our beer bottles and we'll each stick one on
ourforehead. Then shove the bottles underneath the seat, and let me do
the talking."

They pull over and the cop walks up to the car. He looks at them kind
of funny, but asks to see the guy's driver's license. And he asks
him, "Have you been drinking?"

"Oh, no, sir," the driver replies.

"I noticed you weaving back and forth across the highway. Are you
'sure' you haven't been drinking?" the cop asks.

"Oh, no, sir," the drunk answers. "We haven't had a thing to drink
tonight."

"Well, I've got to ask you," says the cop, "What on earth are those
things on your forehead?"

"That's easy, Officer," says the drunk. "You see, we're both
alcoholics, and we're on the Patch!"

Anybody have any word on platinum prices this evening or is Europe and the USA the only ones who need the white stuff? Since I imagine Ted is celebrating the Jazz whoop'n of the Bulls with a bit of brew I thought he could use the following story.

Two drunks are driving down the highway, drinking their beer. All of a
sudden the driver notices lights flashing in his mirror; the cops are on
his tail.

His buddy says, "What are we going to do?" The driver says, "Don't
worry. Just do exactly what I tell you and everything will work out
perfectly.

First, peel the labels off our beer bottles and we'll each stick one on
ourforehead. Then shove the bottles underneath the seat, and let me do
the talking."

They pull over and the cop walks up to the car. He looks at them kind
of funny, but asks to see the guy's driver's license. And he asks
him, "Have you been drinking?"

"Oh, no, sir," the driver replies.

"I noticed you weaving back and forth across the highway. Are you
'sure' you haven't been drinking?" the cop asks.

"Oh, no, sir," the drunk answers. "We haven't had a thing to drink
tonight."

"Well, I've got to ask you," says the cop, "What on earth are those
things on your forehead?"

"That's easy, Officer," says the drunk. "You see, we're both
alcoholics, and we're on the Patch!"

Steve Puetz- your info on Jim Blanchard is incorrect. His company is
Jefferson Coin and Bullion, Jefferson Financial 800-877-8847.
He sold Blanchard & Co. several years ago to GE.

Tally Ho

Tort ( 22:27 ) Good drunk joke...burp...Whatta comeback win fer the JAZZ!! The Dollar is down 1% versus the YEN tonight...

Just read "Two Down, Two To Go", on Gold-Eagle. I
would like any gold bear to refute the points made
by the author.

Just read "Two Down, Two To Go", on Gold-Eagle. I
would like any gold bear to refute the points made
by the author.

Tort ( 22:27 ) Good drunk joke...burp...Whatta comeback win fer the JAZZ!! The Dollar is down 1% versus the YEN tonight...

I have great respect for the gold analysts on this site and at Golden Eagle. However to ensure that we are not "fighting the last war" in our view of the current situation I will propose a different scenario for gold and siver.

I suggest that bullion will lead gold stocks in the next market and both will do spectacularly whether there is a stock market crash or not.

The reasons for this are essentially two fold. Firstly, bullion will skyrocket for all the reasons that Ted Butler has documented. However, even he may be too conservative in his outlook for one simple reason. Much of the existing stockpiles of gold and silver may have already been loaned out. For example, while statistics indicate aboveground stockpiles of 450 moz of silver it is NOT known much of that has been loaned out. The end could be a lot closer than we think, particularly if there has been asian investment hoarding going on, providing a ready market for those who wish to convert borrowed metal to cash as part of some derivitives program.

Secondly, as many have mentioned here, finacial inflation over the last two decades means that precious metal assets ( bullion and stocks ) are a small fraction of total financial assets. Suppose Fidelity decides that to preserve it's market share it should start to emulate Tiger Fund - not to mention George Soros.

I will contend the Tiger Fund's sucess makes massive investment hoarding a credible strategy for major financial players. Big Trader may have gotten in first but I doubt that he will be last. Given the over extension of current financial markets, this could be the only politically safe way to make a few quick bilions. Soros could short a currency but could wind up being crucified both finacially and politically in a political climate much less lassez faire than a few years ago. On the other hand, since "conventional wisdom" states that gold is "obsolete" who should care if it skyrockets?

Given the current climate in the markets, if things start to really move in gold and silver they may have their own mania. In fact, a stupendous surge in precious metals may be the final act of the current financial mania! In this case the metals could parabolic spectacularly but have a shorter life span.

I have great respect for the gold analysts on this site and at Golden Eagle. However to ensure that we are not "fighting the last war" in our view of the current situation I will propose a different scenario for gold and siver.

I suggest that bullion will lead gold stocks in the next market and both will do spectacularly whether there is a stock market crash or not.

The reasons for this are essentially two fold. Firstly, bullion will skyrocket for all the reasons that Ted Butler has documented. However, even he may be too conservative in his outlook for one simple reason. Much of the existing stockpiles of gold and silver may have already been loaned out. For example, while statistics indicate aboveground stockpiles of 450 moz of silver it is NOT known much of that has been loaned out. The end could be a lot closer than we think, particularly if there has been asian investment hoarding going on, providing a ready market for those who wish to convert borrowed metal to cash as part of some derivitives program.

Secondly, as many have mentioned here, finacial inflation over the last two decades means that precious metal assets ( bullion and stocks ) are a small fraction of total financial assets. Suppose Fidelity decides that to preserve it's market share it should start to emulate Tiger Fund - not to mention George Soros.

I will contend the Tiger Fund's sucess makes massive investment hoarding a credible strategy for major financial players. Big Trader may have gotten in first but I doubt that he will be last. Given the over extension of current financial markets, this could be the only politically safe way to make a few quick bilions. Soros could short a currency but could wind up being crucified both finacially and politically in a political climate much less lassez faire than a few years ago. On the other hand, since "conventional wisdom" states that gold is "obsolete" who should care if it skyrockets?

Given the current climate in the markets, if things start to really move in gold and silver they may have their own mania. In fact, a stupendous surge in precious metals may be the final act of the current financial mania! In this case the metals could parabolic spectacularly but have a shorter life span.

This quote from James Dines:
"We urge you to keep in mind Dinesism #10, the Dines Wolfpack Theory, predicting that the four precious metals tend to move together ( gold, silver, platinum, palladium ) and the fact that the latter two are rising strongly suggests that strength in gold and silver is imminent."

If the pa & pl rally holds and is for real, this should just be a matter of time.
D.A.: enjoy your updates, keep them comming.
Steve Peutz, agree with you, when the rubber band snaps, the Gold rally
should be sharply vertical. I like your price target, non of this 410. or 450.
Market may be starting to price the pa pl factor in, one of the Gold calls I own was up 40% intra-day from Thursday to Friday.
Speaking of inflation, I priced a pickup truck in 1991 at approx. $C13000. Today the same runs around $25000. I think this is a little more
than the 2.5% we keep hearing......

This quote from James Dines:
"We urge you to keep in mind Dinesism #10, the Dines Wolfpack Theory, predicting that the four precious metals tend to move together ( gold, silver, platinum, palladium ) and the fact that the latter two are rising strongly suggests that strength in gold and silver is imminent."

If the pa & pl rally holds and is for real, this should just be a matter of time.
D.A.: enjoy your updates, keep them comming.
Steve Peutz, agree with you, when the rubber band snaps, the Gold rally
should be sharply vertical. I like your price target, non of this 410. or 450.
Market may be starting to price the pa pl factor in, one of the Gold calls I own was up 40% intra-day from Thursday to Friday.
Speaking of inflation, I priced a pickup truck in 1991 at approx. $C13000. Today the same runs around $25000. I think this is a little more
than the 2.5% we keep hearing......

Ray, thanks for correcting me. I though Blanchard Co. and Jefferson Coin were essentially one and the same. Guess I was wrong.

Ray, thanks for correcting me. I though Blanchard Co. and Jefferson Coin were essentially one and the same. Guess I was wrong.

This could not be true? More?
So many off market forward gold deals were done without
any gold changing hands! Big buyers got on the paper side
of these things and thought that the CBs were backing the
dealer banks by written contract. If the mines couldnt
perform the banks would .......! But what if in some deals
the mines were not involved at all ? Just off market option
trades as backing? And some of the paper buyers shorted
the futures in a big way to cover . And now whatever gold
that was to back these deals is found to be not there?
And everybody was looking at all this paper being sold
and thought there must be one hell of a lot of gold being
sold!
Now during the last six months the price has fallen, but
I have to ask, who has got who?

This could not be true? More?
So many off market forward gold deals were done without
any gold changing hands! Big buyers got on the paper side
of these things and thought that the CBs were backing the
dealer banks by written contract. If the mines couldnt
perform the banks would .......! But what if in some deals
the mines were not involved at all ? Just off market option
trades as backing? And some of the paper buyers shorted
the futures in a big way to cover . And now whatever gold
that was to back these deals is found to be not there?
And everybody was looking at all this paper being sold
and thought there must be one hell of a lot of gold being
sold!
Now during the last six months the price has fallen, but
I have to ask, who has got who?

Gold has one big ( no, huge ) advantage over paper-money and cyber-cash. Gold requires no promise of future payment. I disagree with Jim Davidson on the coming role of cyber-cash. Increasingly, monetary promises are going bad and being defaulted on. A 25 years history for paper-money and 2 year history for cyber-cash do not qualify as time-tested. Thousands of years for gold and silver qualify as time-tested money.

Gold has one big ( no, huge ) advantage over paper-money and cyber-cash. Gold requires no promise of future payment. I disagree with Jim Davidson on the coming role of cyber-cash. Increasingly, monetary promises are going bad and being defaulted on. A 25 years history for paper-money and 2 year history for cyber-cash do not qualify as time-tested. Thousands of years for gold and silver qualify as time-tested money.

More than just rumor, CFTC commitment-of-traders report shows large short position by futures speculators -- 30,000 contracts. In over-night trading, gold open up $.10 higher. Latest quote is now $1.60 higher. Dollar is crashing.

More than just rumor, CFTC commitment-of-traders report shows large short position by futures speculators -- 30,000 contracts. In over-night trading, gold open up $.10 higher. Latest quote is now $1.60 higher. Dollar is crashing.

Big Trader: Who got who? It may be "retail" ( jewelers, etc ) anxiously contemplating their efficient "just in time" inventory systems that may just have ran out of time. I agree with Ted Butler that all this paper has sent markets the wrong ( but convieniently politically correct ) signals leading some down the garden path.

As for the deals that you are talking about I suspect that they will be quietly wound down - with the "helpful" assistance of the central banks. That is, the deals will be essentialy "canceled out".

The real question is what will be seen in the markets once this obscuring cloud of paper dissappears??

Yellow palladium anyone??

Big Trader: Who got who? It may be "retail" ( jewelers, etc ) anxiously contemplating their efficient "just in time" inventory systems that may just have ran out of time. I agree with Ted Butler that all this paper has sent markets the wrong ( but convieniently politically correct ) signals leading some down the garden path.

As for the deals that you are talking about I suspect that they will be quietly wound down - with the "helpful" assistance of the central banks. That is, the deals will be essentialy "canceled out".

The real question is what will be seen in the markets once this obscuring cloud of paper dissappears??

Yellow palladium anyone??

Big Trader & GFD Two thumbs up ! Not that this takes away from the predominant mix here, just adds spice.

Kid Silver: Junk silver and silver eagles are both OK. Stay away from collectibles. They monetary value of collectibles is way below what you will have to pay for them. I explain some of this in my book "Total Collapse" -- just released. If your are interested in ordering it, call Newsletter Systems at ( 888 ) -639-7587.

Kid Silver: Junk silver and silver eagles are both OK. Stay away from collectibles. They monetary value of collectibles is way below what you will have to pay for them. I explain some of this in my book "Total Collapse" -- just released. If your are interested in ordering it, call Newsletter Systems at ( 888 ) -639-7587.

Big Trader & GFD Two thumbs up ! Not that this takes away from the predominant mix here, just adds spice.

Big Trader is big BS....hahahaha

Big Trader is big BS....hahahaha

Big Trader: Central Banks cannot push gold lower forever. First, they have grossly over-issued paper in relation to their gold. Second, they have loaned out too much of their gold. ( platinum past 2 weeks is an example of what happens when metal-loans are called in -- Platinum shoots from 2 year low to a 7-year high within a few weeks time. ) Third, central banks have already lost too much of their gold -- they only control about 20% of world's gold now. 50 years ago they had well over 50% of it.

Big Trader: Central Banks cannot push gold lower forever. First, they have grossly over-issued paper in relation to their gold. Second, they have loaned out too much of their gold. ( platinum past 2 weeks is an example of what happens when metal-loans are called in -- Platinum shoots from 2 year low to a 7-year high within a few weeks time. ) Third, central banks have already lost too much of their gold -- they only control about 20% of world's gold now. 50 years ago they had well over 50% of it.

Hey Puetz, get real with the Kid. A good doctor would perscribe he take 2 COMEX Futures Contracts in the morning and call you in 30 days if the ache for silver hasn't been replaced with a Total Collapse of his fear of the market. Totally,,,

Hey Puetz, get real with the Kid. A good doctor would perscribe he take 2 COMEX Futures Contracts in the morning and call you in 30 days if the ache for silver hasn't been replaced with a Total Collapse of his fear of the market. Totally,,,

Virtual Eagles eye view of global gold paradigm. Is it a plot to create a single world currency? Erudite & exhaustive analysis by the Oracle of Alberta:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/alberta604.html

Virtual Eagles eye view of global gold paradigm. Is it a plot to create a single world currency? Erudite & exhaustive analysis by the Oracle of Alberta:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/alberta604.html

Steve Puetz :

Steve, busy boy tonight... 22 posts later and you're getting like dear old EARL... have an opinion once in a while will ya ! ( :- ) ) ) )

TTFN

Steve Puetz :

Steve, busy boy tonight... 22 posts later and you're getting like dear old EARL... have an opinion once in a while will ya ! ( :- ) ) ) )

TTFN

GFD & Steve: Good write.

When we wound down and cancel out smallest part of
this paper market it take out comex and otc paper completely!
Then you must settle several hundred million ozs with london.
The ability of the entire worldwide gold mining and trading
community to sell a product will be destroyed in short time.
The metal market as we know it from 1968 will end !

GFD & Steve: Good write.

When we wound down and cancel out smallest part of
this paper market it take out comex and otc paper completely!
Then you must settle several hundred million ozs with london.
The ability of the entire worldwide gold mining and trading
community to sell a product will be destroyed in short time.
The metal market as we know it from 1968 will end !

QT -- Gold and silver have always moved in the same direction since both gold was un-pegged to the Dollar in 1971. I like both gold and silver now. It's just that I like silver better because the gold-silver ratio is out-of-whach at 75-to-1. Gold is about 8 times rarer than silver. If monetary demand re-emerges for both, their price differential should be proportional to their scarcity -- that is gold should be about 8 times higher than silver.

QT -- Gold and silver have always moved in the same direction since both gold was un-pegged to the Dollar in 1971. I like both gold and silver now. It's just that I like silver better because the gold-silver ratio is out-of-whach at 75-to-1. Gold is about 8 times rarer than silver. If monetary demand re-emerges for both, their price differential should be proportional to their scarcity -- that is gold should be about 8 times higher than silver.

More Gold: I don't know about the Canadian statistics, but I have been told that the U.S. Gov't view is: "So what if the 1997 Batmobile costs 20% more than the 1996 Batmobile. It is 20% better, so its contribution to inflation is 0%.

More Gold: I don't know about the Canadian statistics, but I have been told that the U.S. Gov't view is: "So what if the 1997 Batmobile costs 20% more than the 1996 Batmobile. It is 20% better, so its contribution to inflation is 0%.

The XAU will be at 130 by June 20th.

Hi guys. I have a custome indicator which i designed some time ago to help me in my trading decisions. it seems to work quite well in all markets and i thought I'd share what it is telling me re the gold market. After
a long convergence begining in the middle of 1996 and leading up to May 1997, the indicator has finally broken over in to the BUY zone based on the weekly gold chart. It is the first time the indicator has entered the buy zone since late December 1995.

Translation-------------- TREND IS GOING TO CHANGE SOON!!!!!!


Touch Gold and Silver Charm winning the Belmont Stakes!!!

Could only mean one thing. Happy trading

Hi guys. I have a custome indicator which i designed some time ago to help me in my trading decisions. it seems to work quite well in all markets and i thought I'd share what it is telling me re the gold market. After
a long convergence begining in the middle of 1996 and leading up to May 1997, the indicator has finally broken over in to the BUY zone based on the weekly gold chart. It is the first time the indicator has entered the buy zone since late December 1995.

Translation-------------- TREND IS GOING TO CHANGE SOON!!!!!!


Touch Gold and Silver Charm winning the Belmont Stakes!!!

Could only mean one thing. Happy trading

The XAU will be at 130 by June 20th.

Front -- It's my first time on a chat page. I've had the Internet for a couple of years, just never used it. I've had some free time this weekend. I though I'd try the chat page -- Now I'm hooked!! It's been fun.

Mr.Bear - That U.S. postal service must be amasing! Are you serious that you can have about 50 POUNDS of Silver mailed to you for only about $26. in postage! Tell me that they throw in free insurance at these rates also!
Auroelf - Do you SERIOUSLY belive this modern world e-mail script B.S. will totally replace hard money in our not-too-distant future?
"Incidentally, the displacement of paper money by cyber-finance
leaves little likelihood of a return to gold money, which was
previously replaced by paper. In some respects, our goldbug point
of view is doubly outdated if we expect gold ever to serve as a
recognized medium of exchange again,..."
Have you comprehended even a fraction of information given to you at this site?
Front - Thanks again and thanks for the heartfelt advice. Can't wait to retire to Calabogie ( or some such place ) and start washing dishes! :- )
Ted - Next Year for N.Y.? Wish I could even remember my 17th!
Prognosticator @ 9:41 - Go ahead! ( Sounds much more official than predictor - doesn't it? ) But do me a favour and post as Prognosticator 2 just so's no one mixes up with the original. :- )

Mr.Bear - That U.S. postal service must be amasing! Are you serious that you can have about 50 POUNDS of Silver mailed to you for only about $26. in postage! Tell me that they throw in free insurance at these rates also!
Auroelf - Do you SERIOUSLY belive this modern world e-mail script B.S. will totally replace hard money in our not-too-distant future?
"Incidentally, the displacement of paper money by cyber-finance
leaves little likelihood of a return to gold money, which was
previously replaced by paper. In some respects, our goldbug point
of view is doubly outdated if we expect gold ever to serve as a
recognized medium of exchange again,..."
Have you comprehended even a fraction of information given to you at this site?
Front - Thanks again and thanks for the heartfelt advice. Can't wait to retire to Calabogie ( or some such place ) and start washing dishes! :- )
Ted - Next Year for N.Y.? Wish I could even remember my 17th!
Prognosticator @ 9:41 - Go ahead! ( Sounds much more official than predictor - doesn't it? ) But do me a favour and post as Prognosticator 2 just so's no one mixes up with the original. :- )

Front -- It's my first time on a chat page. I've had the Internet for a couple of years, just never used it. I've had some free time this weekend. I though I'd try the chat page -- Now I'm hooked!! It's been fun.

Big Trader is BIG BS...hahahaha

Big Trader is BIG BS...hahahaha

Steve Peutz re 23:41 & Mooney :

No kiddin' .... does get addictive doesn't it. The great thing is that there are as many opinions as people but everyone seems willing ot listen ( at least until they disagree haha ) . Enjoy ...

Mooney: I remember my 17th....I had hair then !!!!!

TTFN

Three posts from BT in one night. Are you strapped
in?

Three posts from BT in one night. Are you strapped
in?

Steve Peutz re 23:41 & Mooney :

No kiddin' .... does get addictive doesn't it. The great thing is that there are as many opinions as people but everyone seems willing ot listen ( at least until they disagree haha ) . Enjoy ...

Mooney: I remember my 17th....I had hair then !!!!!

TTFN

Little Trader is little BS. HoHoHo

Little Trader is little BS. HoHoHo

1997 Batmobiles are 25% better than 1996 Batmobiles. The 20% increase in Batmobile prices in 1997 means than prices have gone down 5%. Batmobiles have a 5% deflationary effect on CPI.

Mooney: What's eight years....just a blip in time!...I hope Rangers will do it next year but they gotta make some moves...

Mooney: What's eight years....just a blip in time!...I hope Rangers will do it next year but they gotta make some moves...

1997 Batmobiles are 25% better than 1996 Batmobiles. The 20% increase in Batmobile prices in 1997 means than prices have gone down 5%. Batmobiles have a 5% deflationary effect on CPI.

Yer all full of it!

Yer all full of it!

TED:

Just a blip in time eh! Trust me, it all depends on who you spend it with my lad !!!!

TTFN

TED:

Just a blip in time eh! Trust me, it all depends on who you spend it with my lad !!!!

TTFN

Steve P.,,,,,,, I'm sorry if I sounded a bit gruff, you needn't get defensive. I value your contributions here a great deal. You have my upmost respect. BUT. Steve. Do the Kid a favor and let him get onboard this one. The next ninety days will make a man of him. You suggest, silver being 1/8 as scarce as gold, that there is at least a price correction for the fairer metal in the wings.Others use the weight differential, Sheller, and others still can see the writing on the inventory to contract ratios walls. The bottom line here isthat Silver is a great big GO, GREEN LIGHT.

These Russians are helping drive home a point the Kid should be exposed to. Maybe you should take this conversation to an E-mail level withhim and give him some advise of value. Whether or not the advise conforms to the thesis of yor "TC", which I will get but haven't yet, follow through on your obligations. If you choose to advise DO IT.

Steve P.,,,,,,, I'm sorry if I sounded a bit gruff, you needn't get defensive. I value your contributions here a great deal. You have my upmost respect. BUT. Steve. Do the Kid a favor and let him get onboard this one. The next ninety days will make a man of him. You suggest, silver being 1/8 as scarce as gold, that there is at least a price correction for the fairer metal in the wings.Others use the weight differential, Sheller, and others still can see the writing on the inventory to contract ratios walls. The bottom line here isthat Silver is a great big GO, GREEN LIGHT.

These Russians are helping drive home a point the Kid should be exposed to. Maybe you should take this conversation to an E-mail level withhim and give him some advise of value. Whether or not the advise conforms to the thesis of yor "TC", which I will get but haven't yet, follow through on your obligations. If you choose to advise DO IT.

Panda @20:49: Your comments regarding the collapse of the PL futures market are not receiving enough attention IMO. We are indeed watching a major default and yet most are ignoring the implications of it. Or perhaps that it is even a default at all. Maybe the big players are so confident of their positions with the banks and govts that can afford to remain serene and unconcerned. The real question in my mind, is how govts will react to what should be just collossal mistake on the part of players who should be allowed to swallow their own mistakes. I'm really concerned about the early appeals by Dresdner Bank, for example, to the US for relief via a release of PL/PA from US strategic stockpiles. Merely to relieve the suffering of some who suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of a major swing. ... Of course if the US does decide to do it, we will only know about it after the fact. If at all.

Panda @20:49: Your comments regarding the collapse of the PL futures market are not receiving enough attention IMO. We are indeed watching a major default and yet most are ignoring the implications of it. Or perhaps that it is even a default at all. Maybe the big players are so confident of their positions with the banks and govts that can afford to remain serene and unconcerned. The real question in my mind, is how govts will react to what should be just collossal mistake on the part of players who should be allowed to swallow their own mistakes. I'm really concerned about the early appeals by Dresdner Bank, for example, to the US for relief via a release of PL/PA from US strategic stockpiles. Merely to relieve the suffering of some who suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of a major swing. ... Of course if the US does decide to do it, we will only know about it after the fact. If at all.

Hey Biggest of Big Traders. SH! SH! SH! SH! SH!

Hey Biggest of Big Traders. SH! SH! SH! SH! SH!

Mooney -United States Postal Service 1-800-222-1811 They are open 24hrs, give them a call. 50lbs $3,500.00 insured with return receipt = $25.95 and they come to your front door.

Mooney -United States Postal Service 1-800-222-1811 They are open 24hrs, give them a call. 50lbs $3,500.00 insured with return receipt = $25.95 and they come to your front door.

Mr.Bear:

"$25.95 and they come to your front door"

Should I leave the light on? I'm going to bed before they arrive !!!

CIAO & TTFN

Mr.Bear:

"$25.95 and they come to your front door"

Should I leave the light on? I'm going to bed before they arrive !!!

CIAO & TTFN

EWP - RE: Monex inquiry. E-mail any questions you may have.

EWP - RE: Monex inquiry. E-mail any questions you may have.