Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:04)
Also wanted to mention before turning in tonight that you and I, Steve Puetz, have something in common in addition to our given name, namely that I, too, have experienced that low belly feeling when locked limit improperly!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:10)
Congratulations Strad Master and wife, will be looking forward to a Symphony in Gold Major in a few years!

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:39)
Rich people and taxes.
I cannot help but feel that taxing rich people is
theft. Nevertheless, I tend to envy and dislike them.
But I suspect some of us dislike different sets
of rich people. Bernie ( once again I read him by accident
- dam ) dislikes CORPORATIONS like GM and thinks they should
Maybe Im mad or missing something but this to me is
nutty. If coporations are taxed they will over time
treat this as a cost and raise prices and pass the
cost to the consumer. The effect will be like a comsumption
tax. The only real effect on corporations would be to make
them a little less internationally competitive.
Bernie my dear I think your envy and lust for tax money
is misdirected. I do think that TOP executives are OVER
PAYED and in a big way. But I see this as matter for
outmanoevered shareholders to fix NOT big brother
government who is also OVER paid via ghost written
memoirs, bribes, kickbacks, speaking engagements,etc.
I think that entertainers are overpaid. Particularly
entertainers that I dont like. Streisand is overpaid.
Goldberg is too. So is Costner. But Seinfeld deserves
every penny. Sport figures are overpaid. Tyson is
overpaid. But thats the market and the value of FAME.
I suggest a "Fame Tax" oe "Celebrity Tax" - So there.
Now on the subject of Tyson - I think Holyfield will
win if he can take Tyson out into five rounds or so.
Im sure many will disagree but I think iron mike's jaw
is make of a softer metal and whenever he is clocked
he locks his knees to stay up. This makes him walk
funny and easy to hit. Holyfield is a very good fighter
without great power but a great heart good hand
speed and a clear head. Tyson has super power, not
much heart and few brains.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:46)
John Disney Good to hear from you John and a fine morning to you in SA. A couple weeks ago we talked about BLYDY and DROOY. You gave some very welcome info on their fundamentals. They have dropped a bit but may be holding at 2 7/16 and 4 1/2 respective. Most of my powder dry on these two but I am getting the urge to spark the flint again; any recent news or views, the price is looking better! Also, are there any silver plays in SA you would recommend.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:52)
Way to go John Disney! I would not disagree with any of your 00:39
Tyson was farther in LA LA land than the market last fight, hope he really gets his bell rung this time!

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 00:55)
For lurker 007 - How dare you badmouth brother Vronsky _ a PIONEER
on this site with your "johnny come lately" crapola. Have some
respect. Keep quiet until you can offer something constructive -
Also - pilgrim - where did you get that posturing moniker?? someone might take your baretta water pistol away from you if you're not more careful.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:05)
John Disney say what you will to L007, baretta=Berreta and that should be a Walther PPK 7.65 water pistol!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:21)
First: I want to thank everyone here ( except 007 ) for a great weekend at Kitco, when I had a chance to tune in.
Second: I want to thank everyone here for the Last Word, that does not happen to often for me and if the little woman was up I wouldn't be getting the last word in either!
Third: And so here it is, in the immortal words of Red Skelton,
"Good night and God Bless"

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:35)
For RJ
Jeez I wish I could have been young in 1983. Even
in Beirut. Actually I was in Beirut in 1980 or 1981.
It was a few weeks before the Israelis bombed the
airport. I was the only guy in the hotel. I ordered
smoked salmon and the waiters gave me the whole fish.
I liked your poem a lot - good images, tough minded,
compassionate. You are right about the meter. BUT it
( the meter ) was reminiscent of the Jake la Motta
poetic soliloquy in "Raging Bull"
"Give me a stage
Where this bull can rage
and though I can fight
I'd rather recite
That's entertainment"
Could you have been under the spell of the brilliant
Scorsese and DiNiro and the ghost of the old Jake at
the time you were visited by the poetic muse.
I have one minor disagreement with your slogan of
conservatives as "borrow and spend" - That begun under
Reagan when he was unable to control the Democrat run
congress - He refused to tax to cover costs and the
only way to pay the congress's bills was to borrow.
But you are right. Conservatives are as bad as
liberals. They want power and they want to feel good
about it too. For example, Chirac and Kohl are no
better than Jospin or Blair. The EMU has now become
little more than a Kohl ego trip. The problem is the
system itself. DEMOCRACY does not permit one to

(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:37)
I posted several days ago re: a custome indicator i developed a while back which seems to work very well in alerting me to changes in markets that are not as obvious otherwise. In re: the gold weekly chart, the indicator broke into the "buy alert" zone for the first time since Dec. 1995. And it was a down week for gold.Mooney I'm considering naming the indicator "Louis XVI". It may prove to be a false signal, but we'll know for sure in the next couple of weeks.

happy trading

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:44)
for Roebear
Thank you and forgive me. I was temporarily blind with rage at the
insult to Bro Vronsky .My mind, memory, and dictionary went blank.
( Whoever heard of a 7.65 walther ppk water pistol ? )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:44)
Depression @ I hope not.
RJ June 15 @ 19:23 * We all share responsibility for the government
party ( GP ) * * We get all the democracy we deserve * * Never give them ( GP ) a reason to make an example of you *

A "Recession" is when your neighbour is laid off.
A "Depression" is when you are laid off.

We in Canada, and the USofA, live in a controlled economy, yes, there is the chance to invest, and believe in a free market place. But, reality dictate's the existence of a controled people's. Yes, Benevolent Economic Dictatorship, the system works well, for many, no need to change.

The Golden Insanity built on red scares and graft, on the open shop and wild gambling, ended where all refusals to face reality end.
In late October of 1929 the bubble burst. Its symbol was the tumbling stock market where nearly 25 billions of dollars in stock market values were wiped out almost overnight.

Some 5,761 banks failed. Gross farm income dropped from 12 billions of dollars to a little over 5 billions. Wage cuts came one after the other until they averaged 45 % for all industry. Industrial production dropped by almost 50 %. By 1933 there were anywhere from 12,000,000 to 17,000,000

The appointment of committees and commissions was President Hoover's way of dealing with the depression. He took no action to help the unemployed, backed the wage cuts, and favoured " staggered employment". Feeling that it was the employers who needed help, he organized the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation, which loaned 2 billions of taxpayer's money to industry and finance on the theory that their prosperity would " trickle
down " to the common people. It did not.

In general the officials of the American Federation of Labor backed the President. They did not oppose the wage-cutting program nor did they offer any program of their own for the relief of the unemployed. There
were virtually no AFofL strikes in resistance to wage cuts as William Green, Matthew Woll and others of the hierarchy joined President Hoover
in assuring the workers that " prosperity was just around the corner."

Following the lead of the National Association of Manufacturers and the United States Chamber of Commerce, the AFofL, one year after the crisis began, went on record against unemployment insurance. Green characterized
unemployment insurance as "a hindrance to progress" "a dole" which
would degrade "the dignity of the workingman" and "subsidize idleness"

As Green took his stand, the United States Chamber of Commerce described
unemployment insurance as Communism, declared those fighting for it were un-Americans "trying to sap the initiative of the American people."

Hundreds of small businessmen committed suicide as their concerns failed, but Big Business grew steadily larger as President Franklin Delano Roosevelt told Congress in 1938 when he said, " in time of depression bigger business has opportunities to grow bigger still, at the expense of smaller competitors."

By 1932 people began to wonder if it was really the reds that had been menacing them.It was easy enough to see the menance in testimony before the Senate Subcommittee of the Committee on Manufacturing investigating unemployment relief. But it was a little difficult for most to see how that menace came from the Communists.

Big Trader has again posted, are we to consider that he represents the
REDS, is that not a very significant sign that the depression is here again, the big RED scare. I do not want to see a depression, as noted
above. Our way of life destroyed, not because of the REDS, but in fact by the incompetence of Democratic Leadership, and vested interests.

The fact that the people get the * Democracy we deserve * Gold, should not have been disconnected, and the people should not have given those elected officials such trust, nor believed the RED scare.
Here we go again, I do hope you, and your loved one's will be safe.

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 01:54)
jake la motta@raging bull
for the Roebear
"There is no silver play
in RSA."

(Mon Jun 16 1997 02:21)
Additional comment
"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital,
we discover the existence of trusts, combinations and
monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the
rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel.
Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained
creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are
fast becoming the people's masters...."

President Grover Cleveland, annual message to congress, 1888

" I can hire one half the working class to kill the other half "

Jay Gould, railroad magnate, before the 1886 strike on his South
Western System.

Strad Master
(Mon Jun 16 1997 02:38)
Onward Bearish Soldiers!
STEVE PUETZ: Aha! Now I undrstand. I knew you could explain it. So many of my friends think I'm nutty for espousing the idea that the market might go down that I'm tired of even mentioning it - especially as I'm the one who is losing out on the current profits. Still, I think RJ's idea - go out ant throw a rock up in the air and watch which way it goes - is brilliant, and now I have a better idea why it ought to go down soon. Many thanks!

Strad Master
(Mon Jun 16 1997 02:46)
Baby Strads
MOONEY & ROEBEAR: Thanks for your good wishes. I shall keep all aprised of developments. GOLD... ( That's for Bart! )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 02:48)
Belief Manifesto
I believe the Dow will hit 10,000
I believe in Father Christmas. Father time, and Mother Nature.
I believe we are experiencing the most prosperous times of our era and that things will get even better.
I believe that "The Simpsons" is the most socially relevant show on television today.
I believe the FBI reads the Kitco Gold Group daily. Howdy Agent ___________ ( fill in the blank )
I believe in soft pornography and long, slow, wet kisses that last for three days. ( borrowed from Bull Durram )
I believe we do get the democracy we deserve.
I believe that Capitalism, in order to succeed, needs but one thing: Markets.
I belief that the semicolon is far too confusing and that either its use should be allowed indiscriminately or it ought to be outlawed.
I believe that anyone who proposes a new law should be exiled.
I believe that anyone who proposes a new tax should be forced into servitude to those exiled for proposing new laws.
I believe a conspiracy should only be considered if it is possible.
I believe OJ is guilty.
I believe Johnny Cocharan will be as closely tied to OJ through eternity as he is in life.
I believe the only way to win at scrabble is to sandbag and wait for the double and triple word score opportunities. This has not worked yet, but I believe it will.
I believe Bill Clinton is sincere. I also believe has is a pathological liar.
I believe that Hillary will be indicted.
I believe Vince Foster killed himself.
I believe that Hunter S. Thompson is the most brilliant writer of this generation.
I believe that all human condition can be found in the works of William Shakespeare.
I believe that "only Nixon could have gone to China". I also believe he was a crook.
I believe that optimism will create optimistic outcomes.
I believe we are what we think.
I believe Pierre Sallenger has gone off the deep end.
I believe Ralph Nader is a truly moral man.
I Believe that the Smoking Man shot JFK and Martin Luther King. ( see: The X-files )
I believe that there are those in the Kitco Gold Group who are true paranoids.
I believe that there are those in the Kitco Gold Group who are true visionaries.
I believe the paranoids think I am talking about them.
I believe they are right.
I believe that any minute savings are not worth switching your long distance from AT&T.
I believe in sunscreen although I never use it.
I believe that Mozart was the greatest composer of all time.
I believe that Mohammed Ali was the "greatest of all time".
I believe that Mike Tyson is a petty rapist and a punk.
I believe if I ever told Mike Tyson this, he would punch me, and that punch would cause brain damage.
I believe in the benefits of roughage and bran.
I believe in a woody Cabernet Sauvignon.
I believe there is no difference between aging in French oak or American oak.
I believe that one does an apprenticeship in white wines and then graduates to reds.
I believe that the superior palette prefers reds.
I believe that Champagne is frivolous and best suited to women or men who believe their own press.
I believe that on New Years Eve, at 11:55 PM, there is no substitute for Champaign.
I believe I would rather live in California, with the occasional earthquake, than in any other place in the country with humidity, rain, snow, freezing temperatures, tornadoes, mosquitoes, burritos, or hurricanes.
I believe that the best burritos can be found in California.
I believe that the belief before last now makes no sense as it mentions burritos.
I believe that belief makes it so.
I believe that one should not feel guilty about enjoying an action movie, even if there seems to be an inverse relationship between the number of explosions and ones IQ.
I believe that Troglodytes briefly shared the earth with Homo-sapiens about 30,000 years ago.
I believe that dolphins and whales are intelligent, sentient creatures.
I believe that mice are manifestations in this universe of "pan-dimensional hyper-intelligent beings" ( this borrowed from "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" )
I believe that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
I believe that we are not alone in the universe.
I believe that when we finally discover that we are not alone in the universe that the nationalistic borders, to which we attach so much import, will become less important as we all begin to view ourselves as a "pale blue dot."
I believe Einstein was right.
I believe Einstein was only the beginning.
I believe in quantum mechanics and the bizarre implications contained thereof.
I belief the "Twinkie defense" was an abomination.
I believe that the 1990s will be known as "The litigious society in which no one would accept responsibility for their own actions".
I believe that the 1990s being known as "The litigious society in which no one would accept responsibility for their own actions" is not quite as catchy as "The Roaring Twenties" .
I believe in gold.
I believe that Gold is a horrible buy and hold investment.
I believe that gold is a necessary evil in ones portfolio.
I believe that there is no such thing as a "proper portfolio".
I believe that margarine is worse than butter.
I believe that a Rolex is much too heavy.
I believe in Japanese cars.
I believe that a man should never wear more than one ring, and a woman never less than two.
I believe that the war of the sexes was a media invention and that it was never more than mutual hostility.
I believe all television news is garbage and that the only way to be well informed is to read.
I believe that Jean Luc Picard was a better captain than James Tiberius Kirk.
I believe in the Tholian Web.
I believe in causality loops.
I believe in chocolate.
I believe chocolate milk is a sacrilege to chocolate.
I believe in crocodile shoes.
I believe in diamonds
I believe that it doesnt matter that others do not know whether you are wearing real crocodile or diamonds, it matters that you know.
I believe as if it appears I have far too much time on my hands.
I believe in free speech.
I do believe I have spoken for too long.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 02:56)
I do believe
I also believe the Tyrannosaurs in "Jurassic Park" and "The Lost Word" are completely believable.

Strad Master
(Mon Jun 16 1997 03:02)
RJ: My, my... I believe it's time for beddy-bye. I believe you believe some of those. I believe some of those, you don't. Ever had burritos at "La Superica" on State St. in Santa Barbara? Some of the best Mexican food in the state!

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 03:16)
For 6pak
I cant get off this thing. You are right. Capitalism
has degenerated into a a kind of greed pit where BIG
has become controlling. Big corporations, big cynical
Government, Big Media. From the standpoint of civil
liberty and individual thought, its approaching
totalitarionism - for the KGB read the FBI or the
alcohol tobacco and firearms ( ?? ) for the gestapo.
Janet Reno for Himmler. Himmler looked better anyway.
Wacker and Bernie in their frenzy of envy want even
MORE government to fix things - when government is
in complete collusion with the forces they hate. How
silly can one be??
Society WAS more egalitarian 40/50 years ago. It
was richer. It had more quality. When I was 10 to 15
years old, I could afford good seats at a Horowitz
or Rubenstein concert. Every major city had a Symphony
orchestra. They are dissapearing now. Classical music
is becoming a rich man's pastime. The poor man doesnt
even know it exists.
If I go to an opera in Capetown, there are no Blacks
in the audience. They are in the cast because of
affirmative action but not buying tickets. Please spare
me the "poor Blacks cant afford tickets" cheapshot as
any POP concert with more expensive tickets will be
half black at least.
I feel I'm losing focus and my mind is wandering.
Good morning Mr 6pak. I go now

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 03:49)
For RJ

I believe your belief manifesto covers the waterfront
and I believe in the waterfront
I believe that my own belief system encompasses
much of yours but I also believe that many large
dogs truly like me.
I believe I am getting silly

Bernatz de Ventadorm
(Mon Jun 16 1997 03:54)
le_fou@has a soul
To All
Ah believe in zee pyranees, and mah gold from zee dirt machine,
and zee lady's pretty legs - an zee revolution !!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 03:59)
I believe in Santa Claus ( BT ) . No sign of him yet, though.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:17)
Beddy-buy time

I believe June will be a good month for gold.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:17)
Belief System
Disney - Beware of Irish Wolfhounds. They believe is sneaking up behind you and, well, the rest is ugly.......

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:20)
RE: 16 1997 03:54 - Bernatz de Ventadorm ( le_fou@has a soul ) : - What is it hat you are trying to say? Are you attempting to communicate??

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:24)
Slow times ahead
Auric - I believe that June has historically proven to be the slowest month of the year for gold. The entire northern hemisphere is on vacation. This pick up towards the end of July.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:41)
@Easily swayed

I believe July will be a good month for gold. ( Hi
RJ )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 04:50)
There is no comparison
For all who live in the past. Quoting statistics from 1929, or 1934, or any friggin' period pre, during, or post war...... Give it up! We are in a new world now, the rule have changed and you wouldn't recognize the participants. There won't be many more opportunities to step of this bus. When the last cones, you must. Those that miss this final jump will feel among them ominous unsightful beings which more frightening than their most horrid nightmares. Beware and go well foe many still return almost normal. The some that do not, will give us all a sense of pause. Goody.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 05:02)
Good HUH.......?
Auric - your faith is inspiring. July it is! Maybe lasting through August, but very good indeed.

Bernatz de ventadorm
(Mon Jun 16 1997 06:30)
Le fou@strikes back
Dear Monsiour RJ
Eef you arre unable to unnerstand what ees clarely zee parfait
eengleesh mah fren zen ah have only zee pitie for vous by dam.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 06:40)
RJ - That's a lot to throw at someone just getting up on the East coast ( all them beliefs ) . Ok, Ok, put that one in the "Best of Kitco" ( available in paperback, leather bound, and on CD Rom ) . Re CHINA: WW, kuston: Shanghai is the financial heart of the PRC. It will absorb what power has been cultivated in Hong Kong over time. The Chinese have every intention of Shanghai being THE money market of the country. Best investment over there is Shanghai suburbs RE ( yes, I know all about the pitfalls, but there are some strange deals to be made if you know citizens you can trust ) .

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 06:42)
Hey RJ
RJ: You'll find over time that Bernatz, when accorded the meditation and concentration his words and phraseology deserve, makes the most sense of anyone at Kitco. Wait til' you get into it with Cherokee.

George S. Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 06:42)
August gold up 40 cents, probably reflecting some pressure on the dollar this morning. Interesting that the market seems to be ignoring Fed report advocating massive gold sales.

WW: The gold market indeed is being blatantly manipulated. And a $5 pop in bullion could indeed send stocks down big time. Conversely, a sharp drop in the market could send bullion up a lot. Chicken and egg problem.

SIMPLEMAN: I have been arguing for some time that U.S. stock market would make a SECULAR TOP this summer and gold a SECULAR BOTTOM. Glad that you and big trader support the second projection anyway.

Let me end this post with a quote from the latest issue of The Privateer.
"We still have no technical evidence of a gold bottom in U.S. dollar terms, but we have plenty of evidence that the whole financial situation is accelerating towards some kind of a climax."

(Mon Jun 16 1997 07:09)
Joke of the morning
Metal markets look dull to boring with chance of intermediate irritation.

Here's something one can get a bit out of:

A fellow from Boston was in Atlanta, GA, visiting family. One
day he decided to take a walk around the area where his
relatives lived to enjoy their fine, comfortable Southern way
of life - something he was not accustomed to, being from

While he was walking he happened upon a pit bull attacking
a small child. His instincts took over, and he ran to the child's
aid. He grabbed the dog, pulled him from the child, and
choked the dog until he was dead.

As the dead animal lay at his feet, a man came running
over from the other side of the street. He announced that he
was the star reporter for the Atlanta newspaper, and he
would make the rescuer famous.


the headlines would proclaim.

The would-be savior explained that it was very nice, but he
was from Boston - not Atlanta. The next day the headlines of
the Atlanta paper read:


(Mon Jun 16 1997 07:41)
EBN Gold down .30 and Silver up 1 cent despite weak Dollar...Mornin Tort!
Re-7:09 joke: Lived for a year in Atlanta in me youth and have a similar story to tell ya...hahaha....Germany+ France at loggerheads over EMU....
Who would have ever thunk that would happen!...Asian markets ( with all that AP ) were strong with Hang Seng up 282 ( 2.0% ) and Nikkei up 152 ( .74% ) ....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 07:50)
John Disney ( 00:39 ) Great post, and agreed with everything you said until you started dissin "Iron Mike"....Maybe I'm living in the past but I think Tyson will win this one....Saw him slaughter Michael Spinks in Atlantic City and will never forget how awesome he was.........

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 08:07)
Let the Games begin!
TED: Thanks for the morning update. I don't even have to put on Bloomberg News anymore over coffee. I go straight to Kitco. God, what's happening to me? Got some bad Sevruga caviar the other day ( was Father's Day gift from wife...??? ) What's this civilization coming to when they can't even keep the good stuff fresh! The vodka was good tho. Ketel One from Holland - very nice. Rarely drink the Russian stuff after Chernobyl ( Wormwood ) . ALL: Let's watch the Long Bond today, gang. Remember, if it breaks above 113 we will have to genuflect before the blowoff that will unfold. If 113 stops it cold, then prepare to go short, get ready for tanking paper, and don't stand under the NYSE balcony. Re GOLD: If price can hold around 342 basis August, we're going up. Past 348 August takes us out of the short-term triangle and into full rally mode. Avanti! Great Day All, it's perfectly lovely in New York. Cool enuf to see your breath this dawn.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 08:24)
Mike Sheller: There you go again...caviar...yeck!...Vodka: I'll drink to that!...Beautiful day on the ocean and we're actually goin to get into the 70's today...Long Bond up FIVE ticks...S+P futures up 1.50...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 08:26)
Ok, tell me something that I don't know. Seems like it might be show time. BT?

News on Tiger Fund, Fed report, ......

(Mon Jun 16 1997 08:28)
EBN Gold down a nickle and Silver up a cent...Will be leaving fer the USA at end of week and much to do...time to stain the deck and then back to the woods...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 08:31)
Just read this very interesting article,
happy trading...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 09:09)
found this site..quite up to date and handful infos ...IF ..YOU KNOW CHINESE LANGUAGE...WITH taiwan news,financial market, fund news etc...
and even with the " chat forum"..
enjoy reading.....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 09:25)
Well-reputed Seer asserts gold stocks are as cheap TODAY relative to the market as they were in the early 1970s. See Coles Market Insights - Click RELOAD:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 09:40)
TO: John Disney
John - thanks a lot for your information about Joel & etc - much appreciated! I would be happy to pay for advice like this - think
about this source of revenue.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 09:42)
RJ: Please be mindful that virtually all discussion here is in a language foreign to the location from which this web-site originates. Monsiour De Ventadorm must be shown the utmost respect or he may revert to posting in his native language, which some of us may not understand.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 09:46)
OH NO, my computer has apparently been infected with the wicked " METAL VIRUS"--my browser is showing all three metals up this morning.

JIN, thanks for the links.

Richard Burke
(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:18)
Gone Fishing
Ted: Just getting second coat on teak today. Spring salmon running off Vancouver Island. Like summer here! Fishing for gold stocks on hold as downturn expected Too bad can't use puts/calls/shorts in RRSP.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:19)
RJ Platinum Factor
Regular Kitco contributor, RJ, discovered an uncanny correlation between the Yen and the Yen value of Platinum. It appears to demonstrate predictive qualities. See charts in Analysis section:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:21)
Anybody out there ever hear about Louis 16th besides myself and MADOG? This question is especially pertinant to Americans and ( I suppose ) French people such as Bernatz and his cousins.

Big Trader
(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:27)
WARNING!!!! Beware, Gold like dagger now!

Big Tader
(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:27)
WARNING!!!! Beware, Gold like dagger now!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:30)
Hey folks,

Big Trader = Lou Rukyheiser

(Mon Jun 16 1997 10:45)
Here's an interesting chart on CBOE Put/Call Ratio

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:08)
2 small towns in northern Mn....First one is named Orgasm... Other one is Horny. Woman from Horny gets killed in auto accident in Orgasm. Newspaper headlines read "HORNY WOMAN DIES IN ORGASM" .....I saw the newspaper in a restaurant in a small town in northern Mn.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:10)
Some positive tidbits on CB sales here:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:30)
" Gold like Dagger Now "
I wonder what "Big Trader" implies by his 10:27 remark - going up or down?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:38)
Dunked and Drowning in Dinghy
TED: HI ya Bro...I'm BEAT! Anything going on worth staying up for?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:41)
MOONEY....Louis XVI...King of France...Lost his head in the French revolution....A gluttonous monarch who despised his common countrymen....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 11:48)
Canadian Precious Metals Mining Stocks Expert reviews most promising PURE SILVER PLAYS & others. See Goldbugs Weekly Comment - Click RELOAD at Gold Digest page:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:05)
Think EMU
It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage, than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new ones.

-- Machiavelli

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:08)
Confucious say man who sit on gold like dagger soon standing again.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:13)
nailz - I see that you have read the accepted version of history as censored by the revisionists for the consumption of the masses.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:13)
Yen up, Dollar down, 113.44 Yen/Dollar. Gold up? Can't be.

George s. Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:17)
I think BT is saying that bullion will surge soon, and this surge will be a dagger in the heart of the paper bull.

Bullion doing well today despite all the publicity the bears are getting, but the gold stocks remain weak. Perhaps bullion will lead the next upside move, but I have my doubts.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:19)
The Bilderbergers meet again....Why don't these guys allow any media
coverage? Look at who turns up!! See list below... Want to bet these
super rich don't direct the gold price??? just a weeny bit??!!!!

The worlds elite meet once again to plan the future of mankind. This is a group of power hungry people who believe the world is overpopulated and that people will have to be eliminated in order that they might improve their living conditions. Of course, they get to decide who is eliminated and how they are eliminated. It is interesting to note who will be
attending the meeting. A list is provided below. As usual, Rockefeller and Kissinger, two of the biggest power brokers in the push for the New World Order, are in attendance.

Bilderberg Meeting of 1997 Assembles...


The 45th Bilderberg Meeting will be held near Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. June 12- 15, 1997 to discuss the Atlantic Relationship in a Time of Change. Among others the Conference will discuss NATO, China, Islam, EMU, Energy, Growth, Corporate Governance.

Approximately 120 participants from North America and Europe will attend the discussions. The meeting is private in order to encourage frank and
open discussion.

Bilderberg takes its name from the Hotel where the first meeting took place in May 1954. That meeting grew out of the concern on both sides of the Atlantic that the industrialized democracies in Europe and North America were not working together as closely as they should on matters of
critical importance. It was felt that regular, off-the-record discussions
would contribute to a better understanding of the complex forces and major trends affecting Western nations.

What is unique about Bilderberg as a forum is ( 1 ) the broad cross
-section of leading citizens, in and out of government, that are assembled for nearly three days of purely informal discussion about topics of current concern especially in the fields of foreign affairs and the international economy, ( 2 ) the strong feeling among participants that in view of the differing attitudes and experiences of their nations, there is a continuous, clear need to develop an understanding in which these concerns can be accommodated, and ( 3 ) the privacy of the meetings, which have no purpose other than to allow participants to speak their minds openly and freely.

At the meetings, no resolutions are proposed, no votes taken, and no policy statements issued. In short, Bilderberg is a flexible and
informal international leadership-forum in which different viewpoints can be expressed and mutual understanding enhanced.

To ensure full discussion, individuals representing a wide range
of political and economic points of view are invited. Two-thirds of
the participants come from Europe and the remainder from the United States and Canada. Within this framework, on average about one-third are from the government sector and the remaining two-thirds from a variety of
fields including finance, industry, labour, education and the media.
Participants are solely invited for their knowledge, experience and standing and with reference to the topics on the agenda.

All participants attend Bilderberg in a private and not in an
official capacity.

Participants have agreed not to give interviews to the press during
the meeting. In contacts with the news media after the conference it is
an established rule that no attribution should be made to individual
participants of what was discussed during the meeting.

There will be no press conference. A list of participants is appended.
PineIsle Resort near Atlanta, U.S.A.
June 12-15, 1997

STATUS 12 June 1997

GB Carrington, Peter Former Chairman of the Board, Christies
International plc; Former Secretary
General, NATO

Honorary Secretary General
NL Halberstadt, Victor Professor of Public Economics, Leiden University

I Agnelli, Giovanni Honorary Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
I Agnelli, Umberto Chairman, IFIL S.p.A.
USA Allaire, Paul A. Chairman, Xerox Corporation
DK Andersen, Bodil Nyboe Governor, Central Bank of Denmark
USA Armacost, Michael H. President, The Brookings Institution
P Balsemao, Francisco Pinto Professor of Communication Science,

University, Lisbon; Chairman, IMPRESA,
S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister
S Barnevik Percy Chairman, ABB Asea Brown Boveri Ltd.
USA Bartley, Robert L. Editor, Wall Street Journal
CDN Bassett, Isabel Parliamentary Assistant to the

of Finance, Government of Ontario
USA Bentsen, Lloyd M. Former Secretary of the Treasury;
Partner, Verner Liipfert Bernhard
McPherson and Hand, Chartered
USA Berger, Samuel R. Assistant to the President for

Security Affairs
NL Bergh, Maarten A. van den Group Managing Director, Royal
Dutch/Shell Group of Companies
USA Bergsten, C. Fred Director, Institute for International
USA Bernstein Richard Book Critic, New York Times
NL Beugel, Ernst H. van der Emeritus Professor of International Relations, Leiden University; Former
Honorary Secretary General of

Meetings for Europe and Canada
TR Beyazit, Selahattin Director of Companies
INT Bildt, Carl The High Representative
TR Bilgin, Dinc Chairman of the Board, Sabah

CDN Black, Conrad M. Chairman, The Telegraph plc
H Bokros, Lajos Senior Adviser, The World Bank
P Borges, Antonio Dean, INSEAD
GB Browne, E. John P. Group Chief Executive, The British
Petroleum Company p.l.c.
USA Bryan, John H. Chairman and CEO, Sara Lee Corporation
GB Buchanan, Robin W.T. Senior Partner, Bain & Company
D Burda, Hubert Chairman, Burda Media
CH Butler, Hugo Editor in Chief, Neue Zurcher Zeitung
GR Carras, Costa Director of Companies
D Cartellieri, Ulrich Member of the Supervisory Board,
Deutsche Bank AG
E Carvajal Urquijo, Jaime Chairman and General Manager,
F Collomb, Bertrand Chairman and CEO, Lafarge
USA Corzine, Jon S. Chairman and CEO, Goldman Sachs & Co.
CH Cotti, Flavio Federal Councillor and Minister for
Foreign Affairs
GB Cranborne, Robert M.J.C. Leader of the Opposition in the House

USA Dam, Kenneth W. Max Pam Professor of American and
Foreign Law, The University of
Chicago Law School
GR David, George A. Chairman of the Board, Hellenic

Company S.A.
B Davignon, Etienne Executive Chairman, Societe Generale

Belgique; Former Vice Chairman of the
Commission of the European Communities
B Donnea, Francois X. de Former Minister of Defense; Mayor of
Brussels; Member of Parliament
DK Ellemann-Jensen, Uffe Chairman, Liberal Party
TR Ercel, Gazi Governor, Central Bank of Turkey
TR Erguder, Ustun Rector, Bosporus University
CDN Frum, David Political Commentator
USA Gadiesh, Orit Chairman of the Board, Bain & Company
P Galvao Teles, Jose M. Lawyer, Member of the Social Party,
Member of the Council of State
F Gergorin, Jean-Louis Member of the Board of Directors,

to the Chairman Strategic

Matra Hachette
USA Gerstner, Jr., Louis V. Chairman, IBM Corporation
USA Hamilton, Lee H. Congressman ( D, Indiana )
N Hoegh, Westye Chairman of the Board, Leif Hoegh &

ASA; Former President, Norwegian
Shipowners' Association
USA Holbrooke, Richard C. Former Assistant Secretary for

Affairs, Vice chairman, CS First

GB Hutton, Will Editor, The Observer
B Huyghebaert, Jan Chairman, Almanij-Kredietbank Groep
FIN Iloniemi, Jaakko Managing Director, Centre for Finnish
Business and Policy Studies; Former
Ambassador to the United States of
D Issing, H.C. Otmar Member of the Board, Deutsche

GB Jacobi, Mary Jo Head of Group Public Affairs, HSBC
Holdings plc; Former US Assistant
Secretary of Commerce
INT Johnston, Donald J. Secretary-General, OECD
USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. Senior Partner, Akin, Gump, Strauss,
Hauer & Feld, LLP ( Attorneys-at-Law )
USA Kissinger, Henry A. Former Secretary of State; Chairman,
Kissinger Associates, Inc.
NL Korteweg, Pieter President and CEO, Robeco Group
A Kothbauer, Max Director of Companies
GR Kiranidiotis, Yannos Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs
F Levy-Lang, Andre Chairman of the Board of Management,
Banque Paribas
USA Lewis, William W. Director of McKinsey Global Institute,
McKinsey & Company
GB Mabro, Robert E. Director, Oxford Institute for Energy
USA McDonough, William J. President, Federal Reserve Bank of
New York
A Mitterbauer, Peter Chairman, Miba AG
F Montbrial, Thierry de Director, French Institute of
International Relations; Professor of
Economics, Ecole Polytechnique
CDN Munroe- Blum, Heather Vice-President, Research and
International Relations, University of
N Myklebust, Egil Chief Executive, Norsk Hydro
D Nass, Matthias Managing Editor, Die Zeit
NL Netherlands, Her Majesty the Queen of the
FIN Niinisto, Sauli V. Minister of Finance
USA Nunn, Sam Former Senator ( D, Georgia )
ICE Oddsson, David Prime Minister
PL Olechowski, Andrzej Chairman, Central Europe Trust, Poland
FIN Ollila, Jorma President and CEO, Nokia Corporation
USA Page, Jr. , John M. Chief Economist, Middle East and

Africa Region, The World Bank
USA Powell, Colin L. Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
CH Pury, David de Chairman, de Pury Pictet Turrettini &
Co. Ltd.
IRL Quinn, Lochlann Chairman, Allied Irish Bank Group
GB Robertson, Simon Former Chairman, Kleinwort Benson
Group plc
USA Rockefeller, David Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank
International Advisory Committee
USA Rockefeller, Sharon Percy President and CEO, WETA-TV and FM

E Rodriguez Inciarte, Matias Vice Chairman, Banco de Santander
GB Rell, Eric Senior Adviser, SBC Warburg
I Rossella, Carlo Editor, Editrice La Stampa S.p.A.
F Roy, Olivier University Professor and Researcher,
Laboratoire Monde Iranien, CNRS
CDN Sabia, Maureen Corporate Director and President,
Maureen Sabia International
P Salgado, Ricardo
Espirito Santo President and CEO, Banco Espirito

D Schrempp, Jurgen E. Chairman of the Board of Management,
Daimler-Benz AG
INT Schwab, Klaus President, World Economic Forum
DK Seidenfaden, Toger Editor in Chief, Politiken A/S
USA Sheinkman, Jack Chairman of the Board, Amalgamated

I Silvestri, Stefano Vice President, Istituto Affari
Internazionali; former Undersecretary

USA Stahl, Lesley R. National Affairs Correspondent, CBS

USA Stephanopoulos, George Visiting Professor, Columbia

Former Senior Advisor to the President
for Policy and Strategy
H Suryanyi, Gyorgy President, National Bank of Hungary
IRL Sutherland, Peter D. Chairman and Managing Director,

Sachs International; Former Director
General, GATT and WTO
S Svedberg, Bjorn President and CEO, Skandinaviska
Enskilda Banken
TR Tara, Sinan Vice President, Enka Construction &
Ind. Inc.
GB Taylor, J. Martin Chief Executive, Barclays PLC
GB Villeneuve, Andre-Francois H.Executive Director, Reuters Group
Holdings plc
USA Vogel, Ezra F. Henry Ford II Professor of Social
Sciences, Harvard University
USA Volcker, Paul A. Chairman, BT Wolfensohn
A Vranitzky, Franz Former Federal Chancellor
INT Vries, Gijs M. de Chairman, Liberal Group, European
S Wallenberg, Marcus Executive Vice President, Investor AB
USA Weiss, Stanley A. Chairman, Business Executives for
National Security, Inc
USA Whitehead, John C. Former Deputy Secretary of State
INT Wolfensohn, James D. President, The World Bank
D Wolff von Amerongen, Otto Chairman and CEO of Otto Wolff GmbH
USA Wolfowitz, Paul Dean, Nitze School of Advanced
International Studies; Former Under
Secretary of Defense for Policy
NL Wijffels, Herman H.F. Chairman of the Executive Board,
Rabobank Nederland
GB Yahuda, Michael B. Professor of International Relations,
London School of Economics
USA Yost, Casimir A. Director, Institute for the Study of
Diplomacy, School of Foreign Service,
Georgetown University, Washington

Lurker 007
(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:28)
Hi everybody!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:30)
nailz - BTW - No disrespect intended towards yourself. Let me clarify by quoting Jean De La Bruyere ( 1645-1696 ) ,
"The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth."

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:32)
Not quite as good but also pertinant,
"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all; the conscientious historian will correct these defects." -- Herodotus

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:43)
Quote Fest
The basis of optimism is sheer terror.
Oscar Wilde ( 1854-1900 ) ( Maybe the Dow will go to 10,000, afterall )

Civilization is a limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities.
Mark Twain ( 1835-1910 )

Having a family is like having a bowling alley installed in your brain.
Martin Mull

Hollywood is a place where people from Iowa mistake each other for movie stars.
Fred Allen ( 1894-1956 )

Once, during Prohibition, I was forced to live for days
on nothing but food and water.
W.C. Fields ( 1880-1946 )

If you speak the truth, have a foot in the stirrup.
-Turkish proverb

Every government is run by liars and nothing they say should be believed.
I.F. Stone

A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin.
H.L. Mencken ( 1880-1956 )

Grub first, then ethics.
Bertolt Brecht ( 1898-1956 )

I love children, especially when they cry, for then someone takes them away.
Nancy Mitford

Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality the cost becomes prohibitive.
William F. Buckley, Jr.

Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law's picture on the back of a milk carton.

Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest.
-Jimmy Swaggart

Maybe this world is another planet's hell.
Aldous Huxley ( 1894-1963 )

A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyer.
Robert Frost ( 1874-1963 )

The lion and calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

Whosoever shall not fall by the sword or by famine, shall fall by pestilence,
so why bother shaving?

All progress is based upon a universal innate desire on
the part of every organism to live beyond its income.
Samuel Butler ( 1835-1902 ) _Note Books_

Cabbage, n.: A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as
a man's head.
Ambrose Bierce ( 1842-1914? ) "The Devil's Dictionary"

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:50)
Venerable veteran analyst sees bullish signals on Gold Indicators. Also, his charts paint positive platinum picture. He likes Stillwater, N.A. Palladium & Franco-Nevada. RELOAD at Editorials page:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 12:55)
@our future
WOW, the future history of the free world should be decided this week, huh? all meeting within a weeks time : EU leaders ( 6/16-17 ) , G7+1 ( 6/20 ) , and now the bilderbergers ( 6/12-15 )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 13:29)
Question for Mooney ?????
MOONEY.....Which part of the description do you believe was fabricated ?? a ) Lost his head in the French Revolution ....b ) King of France......c ) Glutton....d ) Despised his common countrymen. It is interesting to me to see which you doubt, as I think all those can be well documented. I realize that many stories were contrived to justify the French Revolution, but I believe all those descriptors are accurate. Tell me where I am wrong. I need a little reading on the French Revolution anyway.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 13:47)
D )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:02)
MOONEY..... OK .... Let me see what documentation I can dig up. My rememberance is that he despised all commoners, not just his French countrymen.

John Disney
(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:14)
for the Roebear
Something bothers me. I assume you understand that
blyvoor and DbnDeep should trade in tanden as 5 RSA Blyvoor
( An adr is 3 RSA blyvoor ) will become 1 durban deep.
Moreover, at the time of the "consolidation" of the
three mines ( buffels, blyvoor, and Dbn Deep ) , holders
of DbnDeep will also get half an option on the new
company striking 60 rand expiry mid 2002 I believe.
( I would value the option at say 6 rand ) .
Few people understand this operation. My local
broker does not understand it and he lives in Joburg.
On a DD ADR you SHOULD be entitled to half of one
of these options. BUT I FEAR THAT the banks that issue
the ADRs ( Citibank, Morgan G ) have little tricky ways
of diddling one. I believe they will SELL the options
ON YOUR BEHALF and give you the money instead of the
option. Sounds fine right. BUTTTTT - the way they sell
the options is not on the market over a period of time.
They will probably AUCTION them. I dont know who can
attend one of these auctions but I will bet these option
will go at less then 10 per cent of their true market
This happened to me once when I owned loraine ADRs. I
had a stack and I received a zillion Target warrents.
They were auctioned for a few pennies. In two months
they were 5 rand - cost me in the of 100,000 US. You
remember those things.
Check closely with your broker - after options are
issued DD will go ex and price will come off say 3 rand.
If you find this confusing then join the club. Life
wasnt meant to be easy

(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:24)
@History's .Golden.Thread
Remembering the fact that Louis 16th was an Absolute Monarch then, IF Louis despised ALL commoners why would he on Feb.6 1778 sign a treaty with the U.S.? This treaty between the King of France and the U.S. brought the benefits of economic ( Gold ) and military assistance, which the U.S. ( basically a band of rebellious commoners fighting for indepedance from THEIR monarch ) badly needed at the time. I know, I know, it was not because he loved commoners, but because he wanted to upset England's power in the world. His support for the revolutionary commoners of America actually raised the revolutionary spirit in his own land and so by signing the Treaty, thus depleting his own treasury to aid the commoners in North America, Louis actually signed his own death warrant. I tend to doubt though that Louis actually DESPISED his own people, the ruling over of which was his very raison d'etre. He may have come to dislike their misguided ways, however, as the moment of his beheading drew ever nearer.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:27)
MOONEY.....Here is a brief statement as to how historians view Louis XVI..
...................Another part of the article says he tried to institute other reform, but met with great resistence from the poor....

Historians consider Louis XVI a victim of circumstances rather than a despot similar to the former French kings Louis XIV and Louis XV. He was weak and incapable as king and not overly intelligent. He preferred to spend his time at hobbies, such as hunting and making locks, rather than at his duties of state, and he permitted his wife to influence him unduly.

"Louis XVI," Microsoft ( R ) Encarta ( R ) 96 Encyclopedia. ( c ) 1993-1995 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. ( c ) Funk & Wagnalls Corporation. All rights reserved.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:42)
Bonus joke
Yep, gold and silver continue to languish as the clock ticks on the old call options. Whether it goes up in June or July I hope that the metal prices go up one of these days in the near future. For anyone who give a darn about my current woes with my commodities broker, I faxed a rather sharp letter, relying on the wisdom of WW, to the president of the company this morning threatening to file a complaint with the CFTC in Washington, DC and with the NFA in Chicago. The letter was faxed but I have received no response. I guess as a last resort I am going to turn them over to Ted. I've been willing to hold the dogs off and give them a chance to make it right with me but I am going to give them only about two days before I let the dogs loose. Now for that little joke I promised.

There was a group of friars who were behind on their belfry payments,
so they opened up a small florist shop to raise the funds. Since
everyone liked to buy flowers from the men in the really cute robes,
the rival florist across town thought the competition was unfair. He
asked the good fathers to close down, but they would not. He went
back and begged the friars to close. They ignored him. He asked his
mother to go and ask the friars to get out of business. They ignored
her too. So, the rival florist hired Hugh MacTaggart, the roughest
and most vicious thug in town, to "persuade" them to close. Hugh beat
up the friars and trashed their store, saying he'd be back if they
didn't close shop. Terrified, they did so - thereby proving that
Hugh, and only Hugh, can prevent florist friars.

Spud Master
(Mon Jun 16 1997 14:46)
Bermuda Triangle
Big Trader's recent post "WARNING!!!! Beware, Gold like dagger now!"
is a pun on a radio transmission by an Asian ship crew lost in the Bermuda Triangle some years ago - their last radio transmission was "Danger like dagger now". FWI, I still believe "Big Trader" is a hoax. His posts are worded so vaugely & badly that almost anything can be read into them. Let "Big Trader" speak straightforwardly, rather than hiding behind obscure English. It's pretty obvious that he/she/it can speak the King's English.


(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:02)
ALL....OK guys time for me to duck....Tornadoes about 2 miles from here !!!!!!!

Bernatz de ventadorm
(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:04)
For all zee analysts.
Ah have seen zee future wiz zee wizards of zee
pyranees who use zee alchemist wave zeorey ( AW ) . Zey
see zee lovely gold go to between 400 and 480 of zee
dolair par onze pretty zoon by gar. Zeze guys zey don
make zee miztake except a few times maybe.
Zey say ees simple a-b-c pattern ( maybe simple for zem
by dam ) - wiz zee "a" at zee peak in 1996, zee "b" at
zee last low and zee "c" ( to come ) between 425 and 485.
Zee timing zat ees a leettle difficile.
Zey say zey try zee "Cathar cadalabra" plot and zey
get nowhere fast. Zey try zee "King Charles zee Bald"
indicator and eet ees a beeg "you know what". So zey
do not know zee Louis XVI indicator because we leave
France pretty fast in zoze days for zee Spanish side
of zee slopes. Ah was pretty close to Eleanor of
Aquitaine in zee past and zat Robespierre jerko - he
don geeve nobody a break-what a memory he had.
So zey working wiz zee earlier "Charlemagne and
Roland " indicator. Ziz software was written in Basque
machine language and zey say zey cannot find zee Basque
machine. So zey are go a leetle crazy and zee timing she
ees anybodys quess. Ah hope ziz ees helpful.
But Louis he did NOT dispise hees fellow man and
he used to wear zee leetle "revolution cap" - zair were
drawings and paintings of heem een eet trying to make
frens wiz zee reef raff - but zat robespierre - wooo -
what a jerko.

George S. Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:12)
Big Trader
Tort: August gold up $1.60 today despite all the bearish talk. Very encouraging! Now if only the gold stocks would follow suit.

Spud: Big Trader, in his latest post, was quite specific about fireworks breaking out within 2 weeks. We will soon know if he is on target. After today's surprisingly strong showing by bullion, he just might be.

Bernatz de ventadorm
(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:13)
le fou@poor louis
For messiours nailz and mooney
Monsiour nailz last posties was parfait. Zee victeen of zee
circumstances by gar. Zee poor meesunderstood fellow - not zee
bad guy at all. And a victeem of zee reef raff. EEt make mee weepie.

D.A.(sprouting little glittering appendages)
(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:19)

Last I looked, gold was up about $1.70 spot. At this rate of langishing, in less than two months time we will be well north of $400. Cheer up, read some of your own jokes, they're generally quite funny.

Is this another example of the crushed spirit at Kitco?

George S. Cole: What ever happened to the 'bull market will begin when the market ignores bad news' line? I would call the Fed study encouraging complete liquidation of CB gold stocks about as bearish a piece of news as you are likely to see, and voila, gold is UP.

Cheer up lads, its coming our way.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:21)
@Spud Master
Spud Master: BT said next two weeks will tell the tale. That's not vague at all in my book. So...we shall soon see one way or the other.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:21)
George S Cole:

Glad to see your still ticking!!!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:31)
@party time?
BART,D.A. ,et all: Mabey after the metals have their big run up this year or next, and we're all a little wealthier, mabey we could celebrate by arranging some sort of Kitco convention like gathering or just a big party somewhere. We can all wear our 'handle' nametags ( or multiple tags ) . I mean, we gold bulls are all kind of in the same boat here, so to speak, like family in a way.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:33)
Maybe just maybe "BT" and SimpleMan really did know somethin!

John D.- you must be hooked "up all nite". Thanks for your input!!
PS-you must have had a goood answer to your ad?

Tally HO

George S. Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:35)
gold bullion and gold stocks
D.A.. Bullion's strong rise today in the face of all the bearishness is very encouraging indeed! But the gold stocks' inability to rise together with bullion is discouraging. Once bullion and the stocks can move together and keep their gains, then the bear will be history. Getting close, but no cigar yet.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:38)
Capitol idea. I'll be there if I make as much as I'm conservatively dreaming of making. We could even begin the nominating process to determine which city we'll have the party in. I nominate either Chicago or New Orleans. We can have fun with this one.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:43)
Opinion-Technically Dow,SP=Bullish Gold = Colorless to slightly bullish XAU = Detached to slightly bearish.Dollar Poker-faced going bearish.It's sure a waiting game .

(Mon Jun 16 1997 15:59)
Comex Gold up 1.70; Silver up 1.2 cents; Platinum down 2.40; Palladium down 12.60 and XAU down 1.73....Long Bond up 15 ticks with yield at 6.68%

(Mon Jun 16 1997 16:13)
John Disney, Many thanks again for your once again excellent explanations on BLYDY/DROOY. Think I'll empty out the frizzen and ease forward the hammer till I talk to me broker. If he has any info will post.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 16:19)
Tort: The gun is loaded....and so am I...JUST KIDDIN!...I only do that stuff on Saturdays....XAU ended down 1.69 and Long Bond ended up 14 ticks with yield @ 6.69%...Dow down 9.95 so only 7,522 more until we hit Dow 250....Now they ( CNBC ) say Comex Gold up 2.0 ....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 16:23)
CPI tomorrow.......HI JIN!...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 16:49)
nailz - You got my drift!
Spud Meister - I said it months ago, I said it about two weeks ago, and I hope that by agreeing with you today, some of the others will take a look at the past BT posts and start giving them the treatment they deserve. They didn't invent waste paper baskets for nothin' you know!
Bernatz - I KNEW we'd bring you out of the woodwork by speaking of your beloved Louis! After all, its well-known, 'ow zorrofall ze Francch peepill arre foreevarr loosinn' za fine fellooww! An' off coarse ze Golden Louis D'Or's zat dat dam Franklin swindled fromm za fine fat fellooww!

Strad Master
(Mon Jun 16 1997 17:13)
Egg on my face!
GVC & L STEVE: I'm certainly not superstitious and I don't want to put the kibosh on your plans, but several months ago when things were really going our way there was some similar talk about a big party. ( I was one of the enthusiastic planners! ) Mme. Auroelf correctly pointed out that it was too soon for that sort of talk as it might serve to jinx the move. Well, sure enough, counting the chickens before they hatched only resulted in a lot of broken eggs! I would love a party as much as anyone, but there is plenty of time to discuss that once we're closer to break-even.

dean evans
(Mon Jun 16 1997 17:41)
hold gold shares is like selling air conditioners in Alaska. face it
was a big mistake.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 17:51)
Encouraging signs for stock market bears.
1.The S&P has now given nine sell signals, including seven %R sell signals in a row. ( Nine sell signals are no more valid than one sell signal, and do not indicate the extent of the down move. )
2. Today's market action was a very small range, indicating a possible loss of upward momentum.
3. Today's market action, with the open and close in almost the center of the range, is a reversal signal. After the past several days, the only reversal is down.
4. The intraday chart pattern is very encouraging. For the first time, the five wave impulse is down, and the three wave correction is up.

Using some very short term cycles, it is likely, ( I hope ) that tomorrow will be down. The rising wedge pattern "throw-over" lasted much longer than anticipated, but that may be because of the near buying panic of last Thursday and Friday. Elliott Wave theory indicates that a rapid decline follows a "throw-over.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 18:03)
@ Sign Of The Omen:
Prognosticator's NINE sell signals sounds like an omen to me := )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 18:23)
Friends- reading you many wonderful posts daily, am again getting the feeling of some dispair mixed with the usual predictions of up and down for this or that market. We all want to be the one that picks the turn and get the back pats, but what's important is to see the tree from the forest and keep the faith.

To pass the time may I suggest you all play a game of mental masturbation. Consider yourself the head of a large mutual fund that can buy and sell any stocks. At this point in time if you had several million, or if you really want to think big--Billion dollars, to invest WHAT STOCKS, AT THESE PRICES WOULD YOU BUY?
I for one see steels, golds and othr precious metals as forming bases, and looking interesting. Oil exploration and drillers maybe? a few of the fliers that have come back to earth? What say you?

Once this mental game has been thought through, we'll feel better about the daily fluctuations, whether up or down. Now we're in a period of very low inflation, we've all heard it ad nausium, so what follows low inflation? The averages are up in the stratosphere, where will they be a year or two from now? Gold is depressed from last year's levels, where do you think it'll be in a year or two?


David graves
(Mon Jun 16 1997 18:26)
Dean Evans I have to agree with you even though I woluld like not to, but we did make a mistake gold is sucking, I agree.

George S. Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 18:52)
gold and gold stocks
Today's bullion action was quite good, but gold stock action was very bad. Bullion up $1.70, but XAU down 1.7% and FSAGX off nearly 1%. Such large divergences are I believe a first even for this bear market. Suggests that bullion rally reflects short-covering, not investor accumulation. Bullion probably will go into reverse and challenge the $340 level by week's end unless the gold stocks start moving north forthwith.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 18:56)
@ Ready At The Mark:
Big Trader: I am ready. I am more than ready!!!! :+ )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 19:22)
Byron - If you are on-line, e-mail me Right away and we will chat.

Richard Burke
(Mon Jun 16 1997 19:24)
Managed Futures
Are any of my fellow Canadians familiar with Managed Futures Certificates of Deposit which could be put into an RRSP? Nesbitt Burns and Midland Walwyn are currently offering one of these. 70% of the money invested in put into strip bonds and 30% traded. Term is 5 years. Principal is guaranteed at maturity. Last year Managed Account Reports ( MAR ) Managed Futures Index adjusted for the 70/30 split showed 15% annual gain.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 19:43)
George, as you may have noticed lately, I've been itching to shout out my Louis 16th comment which I promised I would post when I think Gold has finally bottomed, but I just can't seem to do it as it right now I am, as most, merely hoping. The chart still looks sick and could go either way. Some have mentioned that June is typically a slow time for Gold and others are saying July is often good. If rolling dice at a party I can see all the kitcoites down at the crap table at the end of the room screaming 'CUUUUMMME 'OOONNNNNN JULY!!!'
Prognosticator - Use it in good health!
Reify - With all the heavy metals in the ground around Buffalo, I can't believe that trees are something that you are still familiar with! :- )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 19:48)
With more than $5 billion pouring into the mutual fund reservoir weekly, the Dam will burst. See June 16, 1997 The Coming RUN on Mutual Funds.:

Bill Buckler
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:07)
Gold "buy signal"(!??)
A Gold "buy signal" ( !?? ) Yep, there actually is one on the Australian Dollar Point and Figure Gold chart. Check out the chart at The significance of this is twofold. First, it's the first Gold buy signal I've seen in any major currency for quite some time. Second, at previous major Gold bottoms, the $A Gold price has turned up before the $US price. The time frame is not constant, the precedent is.

Bill Buckler

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:16)
Do You Beeleeve??
MOONEY: Clear that throat and get ready to shout that Louis 16 comment. Look at the August gold chart!!! Support at 342 has held. Price is reversing off that line. We're gonna be comin' out of that triangle on the upside, man, and at this angle of acceleration I give you $347 and we're into a RALLY! OK, tell you what! For YOU, Mooney, I'll make it 346.50! That's my best offer. Start practicing your scales.

EWP@George Cole
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:30)
George Cole: RE: your XAU comment. Some of the juniors did okay today.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:30)
Bill Buckler and Mike Sheller: A word spoken in due season, how GOOD it is!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:31)
Some stox to buy (What did he say???)
REIFY: There are SOME stox to buy, yes. But they must march to their own drummer now. I think your view of the steels is still valid. I did a piece on LUKENS ( LUC - NYSE ) at the Astrological Investor Look it up - I think it's still a valid call. Disregard my lousy calls. Buy the gold stox - I am no-braining it with Echo Bay and Sunshine Mining. Gold for the short to medium term, with weakness again in the fall/winter. I've got some dynamite corporate horoscopes for the next winter/spring cycle, but that will have to wait. You may want to start nibbling at EROX ( EROX ) Corp ( Nasdaq ) . VERY Speculative, but could really pay off technically ( astrologically ) . Has come down, but will have monster astrologicals a year from now. Depends on your time horizon I guess, but this one could be 300% from these levels by summer '98. Do your due diligence - also have an Astrological Investor piece on EROX I did at twice the current price. The company is into synthesized Human Pheramones applied to fragrance. Makes the women attracted to the men, & the men attracted to the women. I feel like such a whore. Stay away from mutual funds unless they're gold. That's my stock take for now, for what it's worth ( FWIW ) ( IMVHO ) .

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:37)
Well, that was a decisive answer. Down $0.65. Well I want to be the biggest and baddest of something, so if the 'experts' say gold is going down to $200/oz., I'll beat'em all! I say we're going to -$1,500/oz. There, take that gold experts at your gold conference! :o )

For another prediction, the Dow will top out at infinity. This will take place in about 4 1/2 months, give or take a day. At that time I will quit my job and retire, ... rich that is. :- ) ) Did I say I was buying puts or calls? I get so confused lately..... Up, up, or is it up? Everyone keeps on changing their minds on me. Can't find a solid opinion on the Dow/S&P direction anywhere. :- ) )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:38)
EBN Gold down .65....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:41)
Panda: Is infinity up or down fom here???

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:43)
To all,
Though not try to spoilt my morning and your evening,still,UNFORTUNATELY,READ this news from the net,
...happy trading....
p/s ted,hello.thai stock getting worsen...drop!many citizens,farmers having protest,rallies about the economic market...

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:44)
The voice of Reason
RJ: There! Now what did I tell you about Bernatz?!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:46)
TED -- Which direction do want it to be? Oh, that's right! This thing only goes up! I wonder, at what point would it be stupid to buy one SPX Sept. put at 825? Call it a, 'lottery ticket'.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:49)
JIN -- Are you looking far in to the future for the U.S.? ;- )
Riots? Over the stock market? Never would've thought of it! :- ) )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:50)
@ Valley
Hey Ted : Seagull on your doorstep!!! If anyone is wondering , David is no relation!!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:50)
The contrary things apply, as time goes by
JIN: Thanks - the news is great. Think about it: Merill Lynch analyst says "Gold has had its day!" THIS is when you want to buy an asset folks. Step right up. I'm sure this yokel is shepherding the thundering herd into more stox and mutual funds for those annual 15% returns. Any fool can see the stockmarket is the thing to buy these days. Get Real, Get Gold.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:56)
Well-reputed Seer asserts gold stocks are as cheap TODAY relative to the market as they were in the early 1970s. See Coles Market Insights - Click RELOAD:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 20:59)
funny stuff
funny stuff from

The Financial Times gold conference in Prague should have been named the "I'm more bearish than you" gold conference, as one speaker after another attempted to set a lower price target than the previous speaker. Had the conference continued for a few more hours, it is certain that someone would have guaranteed that the price of gold would go back down to $35 per troy ounce ( or lower ) . The Federal Reserve released a study that recommended that the U.S. sell its entire gold reserves, arguing that the concept of backing the currency with hard assets was obsolete. Never mind that the U.S. only has enough gold to back two cents out of every U.S. dollar, indicating an all-time low level of fear. The current
membership of the Federal Reserve, including Alan Greenspan, are adamantly opposed to selling a single ounce of gold, so the study is essentially meaningless, but it indicates the complete scorn that the "respectable" financial community has for hard assets in general
and precious metals in particular. The study was written by several people, one of them a student at MIT. Perhaps the Fed will include a bright high school freshman to co-author the next study.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:00)
Summer's here & the time is near
PANDA: I've heard it mentioned that when "gold goes up, stox will tank," but I think the reverse might be the case. Stox go down first, then all hell breaks loose. This concept of riots over a declining stock market is worth contemplating for un momento. A sharp correction, or even a drawn-out, kick the dog every day home from work kind of bear market might just bring patient civil Americans to a frenzied boil. I see the way they drive. Too many are new to the game and haven't been kicked around by a market before. They ain't got no respect for fluctuations, and will resent mightily getting fluct. They will turn to government, regulators, the Fed, Treasury, Bill, and Hillary for redress. They will be taken seriously, the whining babies, and attempts will be made to rescue them fro m impending impoverishment ( caused, no doubt, by nasty "speculators" rathere than solid "investors." ( An investor is a disappointed speculator ) . THEN gold will chug mightily to lovely levels as both savvy game players and scared "investors" buy for similar, yet differing reasons. Huh? did I doze there for a minute? Had an interesting dream....

Big Trader
(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:00)
@Belief Manifesto
RJ talkem' in big circles,
He bigger BSer than Big Trada.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:00)
Panda - Don't make the same mistake that I made in 1987. YES folks I did forsee the 1987 crash and I DID put my money where my mouth was. Unfortunately my crystal ball was not perfectly shiny and I purchased a put on the S+P for almost exactly $1,000. U.S. On the Tuesday of the three day crash I could have easily cashed out for somewhere between $50,000.-$80,000. U.S. on just the ONE contract. Trouble is I bought the put near the end of July with a September expiry. Got caught up in my real estate and didn't renew my bet for the Oct. expiry. Learned a valuable lesson. Good Luck All!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:01)
Not yet.....
Mike Sheller - re: ( Do You Beeleeve?? ) I do, but not yet. If we get to $447 - $448 without a decisive breakout and consolidation above $450, I will sell gold back into the dirt from whence it came. Have you ever seen gold react so weakly to $110 rise in platinum, or a doubling of the price of palladium? Are the PGMs coat tails that short, or is gold nursing a ruptured Achilles tendon? Not a life threatening injury, but one that takes months of rehabilitation and more than a little therapy. I know that most here love gold. I feel the warmth and general fuzziness of this infatuation whenever I log on. Gold is like a brand new pedigreed puppy dog, the outline of the champion can be clearly seen, but it needs to grow a little. In the meantime, it will chew on your shoes, crap on the carpet, and pee in your bed. And while these things will make you angry, you will look in this dear puppys sad and innocent eyes, and you will forgive. The puppy it only acting according to its nature. Did you expect anything different?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:04)
Re; Below
Big Trader ( @Belief Manifesto ) : RJ talkem' in big circles, He bigger BSer than Big Trada.

I will take that as a huge compliment.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:11)
to Nailz
I would not trust Bill Gate's Encarta to give me a profile of Louis Seize. Simon Schama in his well researched book "Citizens, a Chronicle of the French Revolution" ( Vintage, 1989 ) describes Louis XVI as a very intelligent man obsessed with nautical and engineering problems. "He chose to live in a world of numbers rather then words." No wonder he was such a lousy politician. This guy was no dummy, he was only practicing the wrong profession!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:19)
RJ: The other day I mention the Godfather analogy, & you respond. Today you use the puppy analogy and I respond. We have a 6 month old puppy ( have had him several months now ) and you have just described my home life. I agree with YOU. I am looking for a rally into the late summer, then a retracement to the "dirt" as well. Your numbers of 440ish is fine with me. As you may know by now, this is based on my astrological work. ( Hold your tongue for a minute ) . I see the "final bottom" ( not necessarily lower, but final weakness ) in gold coming in Winter of this year. Then the astrological configuration I am observing breaks up, and gold will be relieved of some inordinate pressure. I've researched this particular cyclical phenomenon back to the freakin' War of the Roses on Gold. I would like to carry my longs profitably into the ripe summer/early fall, and then sell and wait for the last dance. Best laid plans often get screwed, but silver is the key here, according to my research, and the recent activity in the WHITE metals may be a flimsy straw, true, but one nevertheless. I have until the passing of July to be wrong. It won't be the first time.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:34)
HEY! _Everybody notice the almost simultaneous QUINTUPLE post at 21:00!?! - Must be a sign. Mike?
RJ - Are you talking about this coming fall or next spring or did you really mean your quotes to read approximately $350?
Shek - Did you by any chance read my Friday night ( I think ) post when my initial reaction to the study was the same as yours - that it was belly-laugh material?
Jin - We could break down that air-headed analysis line by line and then through all the contradictory logic ask, "Who is REALLY paying this guy, or is he REALLY that dumb?" One brief example of his valuable insights says it all for me, "But closures would happen only if gold prices were much lower for a prolonged period, and even then closures would not be irreversible." REALLY? Closure of a Gold Mine is not irreversible? Who would'uv ever thunk it?
Bill - Thanks for giving us, as Rod Stewart said a "Reason To Believe".

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:35)
JIn: thanks for the p.s. on Bankok market....Do you think my brother is getting rich there...hahahahaha...MGraves: Are you related to Adam??..was wonderin where you were and will get sometin off in the AM....EBN gold down .70 ....Earl: AP is good stuff!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:41)
Mooney: What brought you out of your shell???...Is it still too hot to show real estate???...What do you think the triple post means???...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:43)
I'm hungry! I could go for a juicy steak cooked on a platinum grill and a piping hot baked potatoe wrapped in silver foil. Please refill my gold urn and pass the rhodium shaker ... Any of that apple pie left in the palladium tray. Boy ... these metals market are boring!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:50)
Este - Good to see that Louis has some friends besides myself and those rabble-rousers who fled to the Pyrenees. I didn't mean to agree with everything that nailz posted earlier, ( especially not the 'not very intelligent' part ) , but at least the article had the victim of circumstances part correct, and, of course the part that has lead many men to their downfall, but not usually to their own beheading, that being that " he permitted his wife to influence him unduly."

paul morawiec
(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:50)
does anyone really know what the heck is going on with the cvg
placer dome kry fight in venizuala.
who can we believe??

any idea's ???

(Mon Jun 16 1997 21:53)
KRY and PDG is up to the courts. You should know soon. KRY looks like it may come out on the + side. However, they is some issue regarding KRY not paying taxes ( fees or something ) on the property they claim to own ( which could weaken their position. I think the Grandich site has some of the details ( ... I think that's it ) .

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:05)
8 latitude south, 17 longitude west.

Eldorado - Regarding my upcoming treatise on why the western world will not collapse. I have changed my mind completely and now see collapse as imminent. Going to fill up the Hummer with shotgun shells and Slim Jims and get while the gettin is good. Have enlisted the aid of a pair of neighbor twins who have agreed to be breeders and the future hope of humanity. They are nubile lasses with good childbearing hips. The new race of humans will be born in the wild like Cherokees; neither mother or child will make a sound. We will live in secrecy for the first few years, always on the watch for a dawn assault by Janet Reno, in full camouflage regalia, and her minions. We will hunt and gather by night and huddle in our underground warrens while the sun shines.

Once the societal tremors have subsided we may surface and try to make our way to a mythical promised land which may not exist, but we have spoken of countless times in our stories of a clean and green land, told to each other in the faint, D cell light of our last Evereadys in those, our bleaker days. I suspect this journey will require guerrilla encounters and hand to hand combat. The twins will be a great allies during this last desperate dash to our final home. They will have spent their days preparing for this battle and will acquit themselves proudly and our children will lay down their water skins to help with reloading, while the battle is set and the heady vapor of war, spoil, and villainy fills our nostrils.

Do not envy those of us who will survive as we will surely have occasion to curse our stubborn lot and long that others are in our stead. The odds are against us at every turn and success is little assured. Should we prove truer than the fates, we shall live out our lives eating coconuts and playing in the waves like dolphins. We will never tell our children of the western world that was. Why burden them with what is no more, the world will have moved on.......

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:07)
Paul @21:50 - I probably mentioned this about a week ago on Kitco 2 - ( the more proper channel to discuss gold stocks ) - that there was an excellent article in the weekend edition of the Financial Post ( June 7-9 )
on page 50. The article is detailed and lengthy so try and get a copy. Gist is that KRY does not necessarily have clear title to the claims. Therefore at this point MY opinion is that it's a crap-shoot. If they lose it court could back off to about $2.00. If they win could shoot up to $9-$12.
Ted - No Its Been TOO rainy for last few days. ( See I always have a ready excuse ) . Actually I was quite busy last week, but this weekend, ( Friday on ) , I was having BBP ( bad browser problems ) . Today, basically stayed home and fixed it and had a whole day off from real estate in Toronto, ( which, BTW, is a screaming BUY right now ) , and enjoyed catching up on my favourite pastimes, history, Kitco, gardening, shooting seagulls, you know, the ususal.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:07)
G'Day People!

I got some e-mail today that says gold has bottomed in Australian dollar terms. Read it for your self:

$US Gold rose overnight by $US 2.00 to $US 342.90.
This does not do much for the chart of Gold in $US
terms. However, in $A terms, the Gold chart now
shows unmistakable technical signs of having bottomed.

To see the up to date charts of Gold in both
U.S. and Australian Dollar terms, shown side
by side for easier comparison, please visit
The Privateer's website at:

Follow the link: SPECIAL: Gold "buy signal"

The significance of this development is the fact that,
at previous major bottoms for Gold ( eg: 1985/86 and 1993 )
Gold has signalled an upturn in $A terms *before* the
signal in $US terms. The time lag is not constant,
the precedent is.

Any comments would be gratefully received

All the best

*** P.S ***

I bought some shares in gold and there up a cent already ( .083 to .094 ) ! You yanks might like to get in early before the bottom is confirmed in $US terms!!!!!

Good Luck!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:12)
My 21:01
Substitute all 4s with 3s. Thanks Mooney, I've been trading too much platinum. I mean this summer.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:18)
Me thinks we are wider than the bandwidth this eve.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:21)
@ Valley
Ted : Wish I was related to Adam!!! Free tickets to MSG!!!
Mooney: Every gold stock in todays market is a crap-shoot!! Just some better than others, if you know what I mean, Flagster!!!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:22)
Ran across this while researching Stillwater

Shares Outstanding 20.2M

Float 12.7M

Can one of you wise souls help me out with the difference between Shares Outstanding and Float?

John Disney. thanks for keeping us up to speed on the Blyvoor, Durban, Buffels merger. I've got a few questions for you if you have the time. You stated:

"Moreover, at the time of the "consolidation" of the

three mines ( buffels, blyvoor, and Dbn Deep ) , holders

of DbnDeep will also get half an option on the new

company striking 60 rand expiry mid 2002 I believe. "

Will I as a Blyvoor shareholder receive these options, or will only the OLD DurbanDeep shareholders receive these?

"Check closely with your broker - after options are

issued DD will go ex and price will come off say 3 rand. "

What does "ex" mean? Sorry but I know very little about options.

And finally, I'm sure that if I call my broker E-Trade, they will have absolutely NO CLUE as to what I'm talking about.. ( their still working on the difference between a BID and an ASK ) I think my best bet is to send them a certified letter telling them specificially that I don't want my options sold. Is this an option? ( no pun intended : ) Thanks John.

P.S. "If you find this confusing" YES! as a matter of fact, I find this more confusing than air refueling a dozen fighters at night, who will each want more fuel than they're scheduled to receive, and attempting to determine which of our 10 fuel tanks I'm going to draw the fuel from, while simultaneously keeping our plane's center of gravity within limits and dealing with likely gauge malfunctions, and still making sure we keep enough fuel remaining for ourselves to return back to base.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:23)
The Heavens Above
Mike Sheller - Will the Moon be in the seventh Sun, and Jupiter lined with Mars? Will peace then guide our planet? Is this the dawning? I've been waiting for this since 1968. 'bout time....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:31)
Canadian Precious Metals Mining Stocks Expert reviews most promising PURE SILVER PLAYS & others. See Goldbugs Weekly Comment - Click RELOAD at Gold Digest page:

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:34)
XAU - The weakness in FSAGX refirms todays direction in the XAU, down. The target still remains under the gap at 97. Support this week is 97 - 96.50. The 97 area represents an area of low risk entry into calls and funds. Aug. Gold will trade under 340 when XAU drops.

Crystal Ball
(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:37)
Burning@Stock Market Bear Perdition
POLARBEAR- "ex-" means the stock goes "ex-dividend," which is the effective date stockholders are marked down to receive the next payable dividend. The day a stock goes "ex-," its market price drops by the amount of the dividend, because those persons buying the stock after that date won't receive that particular dividend payout.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:43)
Patent Planetary Plaint
RJ: Couldn't hold your tongue, could you? Actually I think you'd make a good astrologer. After all, it's really the art of thinking the next thought...only two ( or twenty ) ahead. Keep the 4's, throw away the 3's. It's a better hand. As for your end of Western Civilization scenario, I like Slim Jims too.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:43)
Mooney -- You mean they let you shoot seagulls up there! They're a protected species down here! :- ) )

Regarding the SPXs, I've already had one run in with them! Oldman was right about them, it's a brokers game... Don't blink, or the that royal flush you're holding will turn in to a pair dueces. BTW, the dealer always seems to come up with a pair of threes to beat you every time. Have you ever tracked a, 'fast market' in real time? I think it's a new cyber space game ( fast market ) designed to relieve one of the pain induced by a wallet that contains too much paper. ( My doctor told me that this was the best way to 'cure' my condition, empty my wallet. ) The only thing that is known to be thicker than the aforementioned wallet is the skull of the wallets owner. :- ) )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:47)
Captain Polarbear: Ref: "P.S. "If you find this confusing" YES! as a matter of fact, I find this more confusing than air refueling a dozen fighters at night, who will each want more fuel than they're scheduled to
receive, and attempting to determine which of our 10 fuel tanks I'm going to draw the fuel from, while simultaneously keeping our plane's center of gravity within limits and dealing with likely gauge malfunctions, and still making sure we keep enough fuel remaining for ourselves to return back to base." --- On behalf of us older veterans who have seen service, we thank you and admire your service - which inspires us all with the security that our way of life will continue. Domo arigato gozaimasu, Compadre. Thanks old buddy - and best regards to your charming wife - you are indeed a lucky man.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:48)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:48)
Lotsa Latitude
RJ: By the way, where are you? Ascensions?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:52)
Gold finding good support at $342 in Aussie land today. If it keeps the support tonight or morning for you yanks, we just might be on to something soon. I hope the Dow goes up another 130 points; the higher it goes the lower it falls. If that was to happen, oh no! Booo Hooo people just might go looking for a bit of golden support! LETS HOPE!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:53)
Day is Donne
Well, good night all. I just can't take the deep evenings like I used to. Tying the old towel around my bunk for KP tomorrow. Hope to see you all out on the drill field for PT in the dawn's early. SOS for breakfast, Slim Jims for Lunch. Buy a little stock, sell a little gold. Can't get enuf of that goooood training. It don't get any better than this.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:54)
POLARBEAR -- Float is the amount of shares available for the public to trade.

Shares outstanding is the total number of shares that are out. These shares may be held in the company treasury ( treasury stock ) . They could also be unissued stock. These ( unissued stock ) have no voting rights, dividends, or Earning Per Share attached to them. Kind of like kids waiting to be born?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 22:56)
Sounds like Captain Bill issa gettin ready to take the safety off the
BUY signal gun. This guy has a great track record and when he says BUY
I intend to do just that.

Tally HO

PS- one way to protect yourself from fallin shares and a risin gold market is to own the SA shares, they have a history of rewarding their
share holders in the form of dividends. I prefer the shares that are unhedged and most of the SA are traditionally not hedged all though
I intend to have a signed proof from the company sayin just that before I
buy one share. You know how small this world is when you can pick up the phone and dial 011-27-11 then the local number and talk to someone in SA
just a clear as talkin across town. Actually their communications system
is much better than ours. When we were in Kruger park, and this is supposed to be in the outback, we had the current gold price updated
on the hour with a pocket type quote tron that my friend had and cell phone service next to none, from anywhere in the country.

Nuff said, later......

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:02)
Mike S

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:07)
Golds down a little and oil is up some. Hmmmm, is there a message in there?

POLARBEAR -- A small float cuts both ways. If some large holders want to dump, you're rotationally unchallenged! On the other hand, people who short these types of stocks have to be VERY nimble or be caught in a NASTY short squeeze. Also, if sudden demand appears for the stock, the price move can be very rapid due to the small supply of shares and don't forget the shorts! Then again, the company may decide to fund some adventure by selling some of those 'unissued' or treasury shares. In other words, it can get exciting! :- ) )
At least it's ( SWC ) not on the NASDAQ anymore! :- )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:08)
Good night all, and no food fights! :- ) )

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:09)
busy day
Too busy dodging tornadoes this afternoon....Will think about gold later....

Steve Puetz
(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:11)
@ RJ's imminent collapse
RJ: I anxiously await your collapse essay.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:20)
on Astrology
If any of you desired to trade according to astrological predictions, be forewarned that you would be operating in a time frame that will take you back 2,000 years. You should be investing roughly at the time of the birth of Christ if Astrology made any sense at all!
I am going to copy a page from "Constellations" by Joseph Klepesta and Antonin Rukl ( Hamlyn, 1975 ) hoping that this simple astronomical explanation will put to rest the pseudo-scientific claims of Astrology.
"Of all the constellations those that lie along the ecliptic, that is the zodiacal family, have been the center of interest since ancient times. This is not surprising for it is in this belt that the Sun, Moon and planets move, and it was according to the position of these bodies that ancient astrologers attempted to divine a person's future. About 2,000 years ago they divided the ecliptic into twelve equal parts of 30 Deg. each, or twelve "signs", to facilitate the determination of the location of the planets. The first sign, i.e. the first twelfth part of the ecliptic, began where the ecliptic intersects the celestial equator, the point where the Sun is located on March 21st.
This marks the beginning of spring in the northern hemisphere, and this point of intersection is called the Vernal Equinox, ( "vernal" meaning "of spring" ) . It is the first point of Aries' as it marks the beginning of that constellation. Both the vernal equinox and the Ram have the same sign that symbolizes the ram's horns. About 2,000 years ago the signs lay in the constellations of the same name. The celestial equator, however, slowly shifts among the stars because of the hearth's precession, and so the vernal equinox and all the signs of the zodiac slowly move along the ecliptic, completing a full cycle once every 26,000 years. At the present time the vernal equinox is in Pisces and so is the sign of Aries. Naturally all other signs are also one constellation behind, relative to the constellation of the same name. To this day, as in days of old, we say that on March 21 the Sun enters the sign of Aries, though in actual fact it is the constellation Pisces."
So, if you think that reading your Horoscope will do you any good, remember to move your sign by 30 Deg. As for myself I am amazed that very simple astronomical observations are still ignored by the very large number of Astrologers who try to make a living out of their trade.
I know that some of the amateur astrologers in this group will remind me that Sir Isaac Newton dabbled in Astrology and Metaphysics after he left his teaching job at Cambridge ( how this brilliant scientist became an irrelevant footnote is one of history great misteries; he even managed to lose a small fortune investing in Bre-x type ventures ) , but this will not change the picture at all. I hope you won't be too hard on me for this explanation otherwise I will have to start quoting Newton's "Principia"....

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:21)
EBN Gold down .55 ...Good night too Puetz!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:22)
I'm planning visit to a Mexican border town next week. I'm really going
to play Rico Rio's golf course. Good writeup on it at if
anyone is interested. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with
buying silver or silver items across the border?

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:24)
Mike Sheller: It was one of my favorite dishes: S.O.S. -- no other GI food was worth talking about. ALTHOUGH K-RATIONS were surpreme when you were rrrrrrrrrealy hungry. It's been a long time...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:29)
@ A Post Before Closing:
This daily gold futures chart shows the Bollinger Bands closing in on one another. Something big this way cometh. But in which direction? ... ... Nite All.

Steve Puetz
(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:34)
@ SPX Sept 825 put
Panda: A December 700 put may be better than a September 825 put. Here's why. The 15-out-of-16 bear markets in the US in the past 150 years have occurred mostly in the July 1 through October 31 time period. Just in case we have another late-September or an October collapse, the December option gives you a little bit more time. And if we have a "normal crash", stocks will lose about 50% of their value in about 2 months time.

Taking the current S&P at 894, 1/2 of that gives you a down-side target of 447. So percentage wise, the 700 put will give you nearly as much leverage as the 825 put. In a normal crash, you will gain 253 points on the 700 put, and you will gain 378 points on the 825 put. However, the 700 put only costs 1/3 as much as the 825 put and it gives you 3 months more time.

Finally, Wednesday ( June 18th ) may be the optimum day for putting on the trade. The two weeks following option expiration Friday tend to be the 2 poorest weeks of the month for stocks. The 10-day Arms Index looks like it will give a powerful sell signal on Wednesday. The stock market melt-up last week signals some type of reversal soon. And quarterly window dressing usually ends a week before the end of the month ( for cash settlement reasons ) . All of these combine to make the Wednesday through Friday period a good bet, and a good time frame to buy S&P put options.

Of course, you should only buy puts with money you can afford to lose. Nonetheless, with each December 700p costing only $350 and with potential in a crash of returning $25,300 or more for each option, it seems to have a good risk-to-reward ratio!!!!

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:42)
mike-- agree with your perception that aug gold
is very attractive. all indicators, including
that great dinosaur of all, supply and demand,
are screaming " BUY, BUY, BUY !"

silver is going to at least 510 in the short term tam bien.

how long can the likes of the boot lickin' rosen clan, keep
what has been regaled for all time, in the shadows?? it has been
too long! the forces of all that is, and all that will be, have
breaking points. they normally stretch to compensate for that
equal and opposite force thing-a-ma-jig. physics? hell yes!

the herd of golden cheeked, silver maned tasmanian devils that
have been wrongfully imprisoned, AND downtrodden as to their
intrinsic values, is beginning to stir. they will break-out
and run-back up that mountain, from which they were driven.

the smoke-signal-mobile is intact, and a viable vehicle
for all who have vision!

Crystal Ball
(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:47)
@Stock Market Bear Perdition
Tort: Here's your joke for the day- A man walks into confessional and says, "Forgive me Father for I have sinned..."
The priest replies, "What is it that brings you here?"
"Well father, I used the F-word over the weekend."
"Oh is that all? Say five Hail Mary's and may the Lord be with you."
The man replies, "but I really need to talk about it."
"Let's have it then," the priest says, leaning back on his hard wooden bench.
"You see Father, I was playing golf this weekend and on the first tee, I lined up my drive and proceeded to hit a nasty slice into the trees."
"And that's when you cursed aloud?" the Father queried.
"No, not yet. As luck would have it, I found my ball and had a clear shot to the green from a nice lie; when all of a sudden, a squirrel scampered out of some bushes, picked up my ball by its teeth and darted up a tree."
"That must have been when you cursed?"
"No, because just as the squirrel had climbed to the top of the tree, a bird swooped out of the skies, grabbing the squirrel with its talons. The bird flew out the trees and back out over the green. Then, the squirrel dropped my ball from its mouth landing 5 inches from the cup!"
"And that's when you cursed aloud," the priest said assuredly.
"No, no.."
The Father interjected, "Don't tell me you missed the f*&%ing putt!"

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:47)
sorry i did not realize that this was not the right place to discuss stocks
but thank you for the info ...

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:50)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )
Previous post had OLD chart...Sorry.

(Mon Jun 16 1997 23:55)
If a stock crash happens, what do you think gold will do including gold stocks?

Any ideas ?