Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:31)
20:57 -- I printed this information. Thank you very much.

Hats off to Martha... the pennant race in the west...Barry ( Bonds-Less ) , Candlestick vs. Chevez Ravine...Who holds the advantage...oh my?!

Giants 7-2 vs. S.D. in the late innings...C'mon Dodgers!!


(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:37)
USofA's Wealth is in good hands @ Federal Reserve Club.(Goldman Sachs)(of the people, by the people)
September 19, 1997
U.S. Senate confirms senior Treasury officials

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - The Senate Friday confirmed former New York investment banker Gary Gensler to be the Treasury Department's point man in dealing with U.S. financial markets on the government's borrowing needs.

Gensler was confirmed as assistant secretary of the Treasury for financial markets, making him a senior adviser to Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin in developing policies for debt management and for the sale of Treasury securities.

Gensler was a partner in the investment banking firm Goldman Sachs, where Rubin worked before becoming Treasury Secretary.

The Senate also confirmed Nancy Killefer as assistant secretary of the Treasury for management and as chief financial officer for the Treasury.

On Thursday night, the Senate confirmed David Lipton as undersecretary of the Treasury for international affairs, a position that involves coordinating policy with other member countries of the Group of Seven industrial nations.

Political leaders and finance ministers from the G7 -- the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Italy and Canada -- were scheduled to meet in Hong Kong on Saturday to discuss a range of policy issues, including exchange rates.

Lipton was assistant secretary of the Treasury for international affairs from 1995 until his current promotion.

The Senate Thursday also confirmed Timothy Geithner as assistant secretary of the Treasury for international affairs, succeeding Lipton. Geithner most recently served as a senior deputy assistant for international affairs.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:39)

You said in your latest post ( roughly speaking )

" Gold lowest weekly close .......10 years"

" For week gold silver ................down"

" etc etc"

In the illustrious words of Reverend Al Sharpton

"Dont Bover Me Wiv No Facks"

( only kidding - Glenn - Im trying to master deep denial and

dont like to be brought back to reality so abruptly )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:40)
Looking Good . . .
Reify: I agree with your post about the positive look of technicals. I am very encouraged by the divergences in the monthly and weekly charts. In addition, the weekly XAU is forming the right shoulder in an inverse head-and-shoulders, with higher volume the past two days. Plus, the recent bearish tone on this site is another contrarian signal that a bottom might be in place.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:42)
............Again Donald............
That beautiful 20:57 is a PRINT!


That bolsters my argument to short corn and Loooooong YEN & BP! All are quite stifled... But, KNOW THIS... JO/OJ has not yet felt the rath...and it Will be gooood. I have comfort knowing you will keep me informed :-$ )

Go Padres!


(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:45)
Israeli-Cuban @ Canada has been punished, because of Cuban Business trade.
September 19, 1997

Israeli-Cuban venture starts Havana office project

HAVANA ( Reuter ) - An Israeli-Cuban joint venture announced Friday the start of a 10-year, $200 million construction project to build a major business center in Havana which will rent modern offices to foreign and Cuban companies.

The Israeli Group B.M. already runs a citrus farm in Cuba and is also involved in the sugar sector. It has received a warning from the U.S. State Department that its business in Cuba could be in violation of the March 1996 U.S. Helms-Burton Law, which threatens sanctions against foreign investors on the island judged to be "trafficking" in
expropriated, formerly U.S.-owned property.

Asked about the U.S. warning and possible sanctions, Rottenberg said "this law does not concern us." " We are working in accordance with the laws of Israel and Cuba," he added.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:48)
20:57 -- I printed this information. Thank you very much.

Hats off to Martha... the pennant race in the west...Barry ( Bonds-Less ) , Candlestick vs. Chevez Ravine...Who holds the advantage...oh my?!

Giants 7-2 vs. S.D. in the late innings...C'mon Dodgers!!


(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:55)
Thailand @ Banking sector cause of crisis.(The workers, citizen pay the price, WHY? let the suits pay)
September 19, 1997
Thailand set to top agenda at G7 talks

HONG KONG, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) - The world's richest countries and some of its poorest ones meet separately on Saturday during annual gatherings of World Bank and International Monetary Fund, with Thailand and the Asian tiger economies high on the agenda.

The day started with a session of the Group of 24 developing countries but attention was focused on an afternoon meeting of the Group of Seven richest countries.

French Finance Minister Dominique Strauss-Kahn said talks would centre on Asia's financial troubles -- a currency crisis which started when the Thai baht collapsed in July and which has affected currencies and financial markets across the region.

Markets were stunned at the size of Thailand's exposure on forward markets when the figures were revealed as part of the reform programme underpinning the IMF-backed loan package.

The G24 is likely to denounce "speculation" as the cause of the Thai crisis.

The rich countries, and the IMF itself, say imbalances in Thailand, a rigid foreign exchange system and systemic problems in the banking sector were the causes of the crisis, which led to turmoil in currency markets across the region.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 00:57)

What a pleasure to come home and see Kitco the way it is. My opinion re nomercy, Donald, 6pak, Panda, etc.--keep them news story posts coming!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:03)

GEORGE COLE : You have commented several times that you don't expect a gold bull to start until the dollar bull ends. This is something I've been thinking about for some time and my thoughts are as follows :

- EMU will continue to create great uncertainty for the currencies of Europe and will likely curtail any major investments by long term capital. This capital will continue to search for the stability which can currently be found in the US

- The problems with the Japanese economy do not seem to be abating, which probably means that interest rates will remain at very low levels, once again causing a net capital flow to the US.

The Japanese may start to see some recovery during the next 6 - 12 months, but the European uncertainty will remain until the Euro is either abandoned or becomes a bona fide reserve currency. Therefore, if the next gold bull is reliant on a weak US dollar, we could be waiting for many years.

My thoughts are that a weakening US dollar is required, but that the weakness will be as measured against tangible assets. As measured against other fiat currencies the dollar ( and consequently US bonds ) will continue to be relatively strong.

EB : I'm not sure whether your Yen trade will be profitable or not - good luck with it. However, the trade deficit as measured in US dollars is irrelevant to the long and medium term relative values of the dollar and the Yen. Trade capital is dwarfed by investment capital, and there continues to be a massive net outflow of investment capital from Japan to the US. It is this investment capital which will determine the dollar/yen exchange rate, and at the moment it points to a stronger dollar. Having said that, the widely reported and politically sensitive trade deficit will no doubt prompt the usual posturing by senior US politicians and bureaucrats, which could be good for a short term move in favour of the Yen.

Cheers, Milhouse

(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:11)
Central Bankers of the world @ United, against your citizen's.
Hong Kong: G7 Finance Ministers meeting, and the Central Bankers of the
world, IMF. I question why the citizen's of the world are not represented
at these meetings. The impression is, that the Government Representatives
are there to represent the people. I think not. It is a Banker's of the
world unite rally. Best damn UNION in the world.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:23)
Crypto Policy Conspiracy :)

Well, I received this almost two weeks ago. I wasn't planning
to post it here, but since somebody else brought up crypto in
regards to currency, and the great majority probably don't
follow stuff like this....

here's the latest S C R E W I N G from our Congress. Does ANYONE
believe it's "just an accident"?

/_______________/\ /_______________\ /\______________\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ ||||||||||||||||| / ////////////////
\\\\\________/\ |||||________\ / /////______\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\/____ |||||||||||||| / /////////////
\\\\\___________/\ ||||| / ////
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ ||||| \//// e c t o r
EFFector Vol. 10, No. 09 Sep. 18, 1997
A Publication of the Electronic Frontier Foundation ISSN 1062-9424


Stop the Big Brother Amendment, Coming up in House Commerce Cmte.!
Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet
What You Can Do - Please contact four leading members of Congress
About This Alert
Quote of the Day

* See for more information
on current EFF activities and online activism alerts! *

Subject: Stop the Big Brother Amendment, Coming up in House Commerce Cmte.!

____ _ ____ _ _
| __ ) ( _ ) __ _ | __ ) _ __ ___ | |_| |__ ___ _ __ Stop the Big Brother
| _ \| |/ _` | | _ \| '__/ _ \| __| '_ \ / _ \ '__| Amendment, coming next
| |_ ) | | ( _| | | |_ ) | | | ( _ ) | |_| | | | __/ | week in the House
|____/|_|\__, | |____/|_| \___/ \__|_| |_|\___|_| Commerce committee!
Posted September 18, 1997
Please forward where appropriate until September 28, 1997

This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy & Technology,
the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine,
and Americans for Tax Reform


Table of Contents
Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet
What You Can Do
-Please contact four leading members of Congress
About This Alert



In 1948, George Orwell described a future world in which Big Brother
peaked over the shoulder of every citizen -- watching every move and
listening to every word.

Now, in 1997, the FBI is pushing the United States Congress to pass
legislation which would make George Orwell's frightening vision a reality.

Next week the House Commerce Committee will meet to consider a
proposal that would require all Americans to provide the government
guaranteed access to their private online communications and business
transactions. Taking a page out of Orwell's 1984, the FBI-spawned
proposal would require that every part of the Internet -- from the
software on your computer to the network provider that carries your
messages around the net -- be jury-rigged to divulge your private
conversations immediately on request by the FBI ( see below ) .

Unfortunately, this is not a work of fiction.

The amendment, to be offered by Representatives Mike Oxley ( R-OH ) and
Thomas Manton ( D-NY ) , is a serious threat to your privacy and represents
the first and final step in the construction of a National Surveillance

A vote is expected on September 25. The future of privacy and security
in the information age is in the hands of the Commerce Committee, and
they need to know that folks are watching and care about the outcome.

On Monday September 22, please join thousands of Internet users all across
the country as we call on Congress to stop big brother. With your help and
support, we can ensure that George Orwell's 1984 does not become a reality.

All the information you need is attached below.



1. ON MONDAY SEPTEMBER 22, pick up the phone and call as many of the four
leading members of the Commerce committee as you can:

Chairman Thomas Bliley ( R-VA ) ( 202 ) 225-2815
Ranking member John Dingell ( D-MI ) ( 202 ) 225-4071
Rep. W.J. Tauzin ( R-LA ) ( 202 ) 225-4031
Rep. Ed Markey ( D-MA ) ( 202 ) 225-2836

2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue.

3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE ( HR695 )
without amendments.

Americans should not be required to give the government keys to the front
door of their house, and they shouldn't be required to give the government
the keys to unlock their private online communications."

Other amendments may be proposed. Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE
"as is" and oppose any amendments. Feel free to use your own words though
here are some points you might want to stress:

- Oxley/Manton is a dramatic expansion of law enforcement power. It would
give law enforcement "immediate" access to private online communications
and business transactions without any notice or knowledge to the user.

ENFORCEMENT CONCERNS, as some supporters have argued. It gives the FBI
broad new power while stripping Americans of their Fourth Amendment right
to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.

- Oxley/Manton would give the Attorney General authority to dictate the
design of Internet services and software to suit the needs of law

- Oxley/Manton would not stop crime. Strong encryption without "immediate
access" features is available today at home and abroad.

- Oxley/Manton would increase opportunities for cybercrime as criminal hackers
attack vulnerabilities in the key recovery access system.

4. Let us know how it went! Go to one of the following web pages, depending
on who you called, and tell us about the conversation.

Rep. Bliley
Rep. Dingell
Rep. Tauzin
Rep. Markey

5. Forward this ALERT to your friends and colleagues.

6. Feel good about yourself! Know that you've stood up for privacy, and
contacting Congress is more than most people take the time to do!



The House Commerce Committee is considering a bill known as the "Security and
Freedom through Encryption Act" ( HR 695, a.k.a. SAFE ) . SAFE would
encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption
technologies in order to protect privacy and promote electronic commerce on
the Internet. SAFE enjoys broad support from Internet users, civil
liberties advocates, and over 250 members of Congress.

Last week, the Commerce Committee delayed its vote on the SAFE bill in
order to give the Committee more time to study the implications of the
Oxley/Manton amendment, which would change SAFE to ban encryption which
does not contain features that provide law enforcement with "immediate
access" to the plain text of encrypted information, including private
communications and business transactions ( visit )

The Oxley/Manton amendment would for the first time impose sweeping
restrictions on the ability of American citizens to protect their privacy
on US soil. Specifically, the amendment would:

proposal would prohibit the manufacture, sale, import, or distribution
within the United States of any encryption product unless it allows
"immediate access" to the plain text of any user's messages or files
without the user's knowledge.

STANDARDS FOR ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS: The proposal allows the Attorney
General to set standards for what are and are not acceptable
encryption products. The proposal's requirement of immediate access to
plain text would seem to seriously limit the options available to
encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products.

The amendment does not specify whether the immediate access "features"
could be activated ( or not ) at the option of the purchaser or end user.
Nonetheless, requiring that such a capability be installed in all domestic
communications networks and encryption products is the equivalent of
enabling a national surveillance infrastructure and asserts unprecedented
control over the design of Internet software, hardware, and services.

The amendment is analogous to the government requiring surveillance cameras
in every new house built in the United States, which could be turned on
remotely by the police if you were ever suspected of committing a crime.

Worse yet, such "key escrow" or "key recovery" technologies pose
significant risk to the security of the Internet -- providing new
points of vulnerability for hackers, terrorists, and industrial spies
to exploit. A recent study by 11 of the worlds leading cryptographers
concluded that the large scale deployment of such technologies would be
too complex and too insecure to meet the needs of an Information Age
society ( see )

Despite widespread opposition from Internet users, civil liberties
groups, privacy advocates, and the computer and communications
industries, Oxley and Manton plan to push for this FBI-spawned amendment
at the Commerce Committee vote. If it is adopted, it would
represent the first and final step in the development of a national
surveillance infrastructure.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:30)
Synopsis of Crypto Conspiracy Article

Congress introduced pro-cryptography legislation.

Promoted legislation so that everyone would believe, as was
true, that it WAS pro-cryptography.

Congress then gutted bill and altered its innards such that
it is now 180 degrees to its "public image".

Our Congress is evil. This is NOT an accident.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:53)
It is you're last sentence I am interested in. The posturing part has always been the impetus that will start a short term bull. That it my only interest, right$...

Thanks is the Great Hong Kong...been quiet?? print the good...and file the baaad...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:58)
Who Cares @ 01:23
Who cares, unfortunately, most citizens do not care. Sad but true. We in
Canada have many such problems, regarding privacy etc. and when you make
mention, most people just give you a oh well, and continue on their way.

Hell, the question of Quebec is a good example of the citizen's outside
of Quebec, do not give a damn about history or democracy. Yet, they
consider themselves to be a supporter and protector of freedom.

Considering, that the issue is before the Commerce Committee, suggests a
conscious effort on the part of Big Business.Monopoly Business, have a
honest purpose, for wanting such control. I consider Big Brother is in
fact Big Business Monopoly. What is your take, as to who Big Brother is.

**Stop the Big Brother Amendment, Coming up in House Commerce Cmte.!
**Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet
**the FBI-spawned proposal
**Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE ( HR695 )
without amendments.

Take care.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 01:59)
Excuse me Sir!
Millhouse = Milhouse


eb Yen=Yes

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:09)
Some of you guys are good with How many dollars would it take ( at today's values ) to buy all the stock of all the gold mines in the world? Then, how many dollars would it take to buy all the above-ground gold in the world?? Third, what could you do with all that gold???

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:15)

Milhouse--Do I have this right: ALL paper will lose value in relation to tangibles. It's just that the Dollar will lose value less quickly compared to most other currencies?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:16)
AURIC: re: that said they were their own ISP & the fee was $20/mo.....was that unlimited usage? Also, what about your phone bill? ( since I'm sure that they're not a local call.....or are they? ) I'm just looking for loopholes....'cause it sounds good!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:17)
Encryption @ TechNet = New Political Action Group = Lobby Group eh!
September 20, 1997
Clinton to dine with Silicon Valley execs

SAN FRANCISCO ( Reuter ) - Just one day after helping his daughter Chelsea move into her college dorm room at Stanford University, President Clinton will be the special guest at a fund-raising dinner hosted by a new Silicon Valley political group Saturday night.

The chief executives of some leading computer and software companies and key venture capitalists in the Valley will be attending the "small" gathering, hoping to bend Clinton's ear on several important issues for the technology industry, such as the White House's stance against data scrambling technology called encryption.

The dinner is taking place at the private home of CNET chief executive Halsey Minor, in the posh Seacliff area of San Francisco and is being sponsored by TechNet, the industry's new political action group.

Bidzos of RSA, a big proponent for computer encryption, said he hopes to convince Clinton that the government should not rush into legislation that would make it illegal to use the powerful scrambling technology which codes and decodes data transmitted over computer networks.

The government fears encryption can help criminals conduct secret negotiations and transactions and that it is a threat to national security. Ironically, earlier Friday, a purported transcript of intercepted pager messages between Clinton's Secret Service detail, were posted on the Internet by a hacker, to protest proposed anti-encryption legislation.

"I'm very pleased that he is interested," Bidzos said. "It's going to be breaking bread and talking a long time. It's not just about encryption."

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:21)

Savage--It is good! $20 per month, unlimited usage. And, it is a LOCAL call, so my phone bill is unaffected. Can now get it for $99 plus $50 for infrared keyboard ( a must ) .

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:37)
GLENN: Ever hear of Stanley Kroll? He said he got killed by so many silver spikes that he thought he was a vampire! ( then he went long and made a bundle ) .........

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:37)

Also, I am not sure if Webtv is sold outside the United States. As of a few months ago, its sale had been prohibited outside the US. The technology apparently has military applications.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:45)
AURIC: Thanks, I guess I can get it. I live about 100 miles directly north of you. ( married an Indiana girl and stayed )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:49)
Webtv @ Webtv

(Sat Sep 20 1997 02:59)
Rubin @ Meeting,Japan's Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka
September 20, 1997
FOCUS-Japan, U.S. ease friction over Tokyo surplus

HONG KONG, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Japanese Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka held talks on Tokyo's rising trade surplus on Saturday, ahead of a wider meeting of the Group of Seven ( G7 ) industrial countries.

"We had a good, constructive meeting," Rubin told reporters after emerging from the bilateral talks. A separate meeting of Group of 24 developing nations called on multilateral agencies to speed up aid disbursements to poor nations and for caution on freeing up capital flows.

The gatherings coincide with the annual meeting of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) , where most attention has focused on Asian turmoil sparked by Thailand's currency crisis in July.

"Rubin expressed the concern that the Japanese economy is weaker than expected and the Japanese external surplus is increasing," a U.S. Treasury spokesman told reporters after Rubin met Mitsuzuka.

The United States had a $5.2 billion trade deficit with Japan in July, the highest for more than two years. Washington wants Japan to boost domestic demand and stop using exports to prop up the economy.

The Treasury spokesman said Mitsuzuka had expressed his hope that the United States' recent good economic performance, marked by low inflation and strong growth, could be sustained.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:00)
Well, I better hit the hay...tomorrow is the "Johnny Appleseed Festival",...the ( sweet ) wife says I'm going.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:02)

Savage--Should be no problem. You must live close to Amish country. I doubt they sell too many Webtvs to them!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:05)
My reading of Bill Buckler's gold charts is that gold has 'already' turned the corner. Look at the A$ and Yen charts--may be indicative of weakness in these two currencies, but I'm already smiling as my stash is lookin' good ( as I am certain are the Japanese ) . As Bill says-- the A$ price has led the $US price on the last couple of occasions. My Koalas ain't lookin' too bad either.

EB--thanks for the invite, mate. Haven't surfed for many a year ( as a kid in Hawaii ) , but would be pleased to belt the you know what outta that little white ball with you. I get up to the ol' U.S. of A. every coupla years and will go and suck a few tinnies with ya ( as long as it ain't made in the USA ) .

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:27)

To my Antipodian Friends-- Go here for a nearly real time view of Perth. Hit "Camera 1", or "Camera 2" when you get there. I could post URLs for Auckland and Sidney, also. Still trying to find one for Canberra!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:38)

Damn! I am in downtown Perth! The view is from atop the AMP building. Looking out, there is a large, circular shaped structure downtown. Looks like a sports stadium. What is it?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:50)
New Wave of BIG Layoff's @ USofA. Expert's state all is well.
September 19, 1997
New layoff wave as U.S. companies try to keep investors happy

NEW YORK ( AP ) - Just when it seems safe for Americans to feel good about their job - maybe even ask for a raise - along comes a new round of big layoffs by companies eager to please Wall Street.

After months of quiet, the five biggest layoff announcements of the year in the United States have all come in the last 11 weeks, with the loss of tens of thousands of jobs. The layoffs include big cuts by Woolworth,
International Paper, and one this week by Whirlpool, the world's biggest
appliance maker.

But experts say the healthy U.S. economy will make it easier for many of
those laid off to find new work. The country's jobless rate was 4.9 per cent last month, near a 24-year low.

"It's not as if these people are going to languish for a year on the
unemployment line," said John Challenger of the job-placement firm
Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc. "But it does create a sense of anxiety. You never know when its going to hit your company."

That anxiety is one factor keeping workers from demanding higher pay,
which in turn is holding down inflation. "Each time it seems wages are going to go up, in comes another wave of downsizing," Challenger said.
Challenger, who tracks layoff announcements in a monthly report, said the
April-to-June period was among the quietest this decade for layoff news.

Then, Woolworth and International Paper said in July they would each
shed at least 9,000 workers, or roughly 10 per cent of their workforces.
Stanley Works and Fruit of the Loom followed soon after with cuts of
nearly 5,000 each. On Thursday, Whirlpool said it would trim 4,700 jobs in a restructuring, and hours later the Food Lion grocery chain said it would close 61 supermarkets in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana and lay off 3,100. Even Toro, the snowblower maker, put a chill through its workers this week by saying it will close a plant in Minnesota that employs 230.

And it could get worse before its better. "I see this trend continuing," said Ned Riley, chief investment officer with BankBoston. "Some of the major companies, the Cokes, the Intels, they all have mentioned that revenue growth is difficult to achieve."

Which points to a key reason for the latest cuts: appeasing investors eager for improved bottom lines.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:50)
Auric--yer a genius, mate. Thanks muchly for the site. If you can find one for Canberra it will save me looking up from my computer. I live high on a hill with a panoramic view of the Canberra area. The bottom boundary of my property is the 10th fairway of a beautiful golf course. So I get all the benefits without havin' to mow the danged lawn. The only thing I hate more than politicians is mowing lawns. Hows that easy chair of yours? Saw something on the boob tonight--they've solved the drug problems in Indianapolis ( see, yer makin' worldwide headlines, mate!! ) .
The bible beaters line up a drug distributor's house and sing the gospel etc. with protest banners to boot until they are shamed into movin' somewhere else. They'll probably all head up to see Donald in Connecticut??

Ted--you have no idea what you have done!!!! Mate, I went out lookin' for a kayak today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I live two hours from the ocean but we have a very big lake and lots of great rivers around here. $1100 smackers for a two-man poly propylene ( sp? ) job that is guaranteed to break the rocks rather than your skull on our white-water rivers.
You sure as hell better stock up on the Fosters if I get good at this!!!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 03:59)

Nick @ Canberra--If Canberra is anything like Indianapolis, then its a wonderful place, but the inmates are running the assylum! I'll find web cameras for both places mate!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 04:22)
Just heard on news--"Indonesia frees Aussie union leaders after protest". Shoulda done the same thing they did to the East Timorese. Forgot who posted the earlier info on gold miners with Indonesian exposure--thanks mate. I buy a lot of Aussie wannabes with potential Bre-ex's. I'll be a bit more careful in future. It appears you have to have a relly of the ruling family in on the action if you want a "contract of work". In America you have to suck on more than tinnies of beer if you wanna get a head ( pun intended ) !!!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 04:36)
Who says money can't make you happy!!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 04:40)
Australia's numero uno now numero dos-o!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 04:54)
Thanks again, Bart, for providing me a site all to myself!! Off to the basketball to see Canberra beat Adelaide and ( hopefully ) get into the finals. G'day/G'nite/G'mornin' all.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 04:58)

Nick, aurator, et al--Still can't find Canberra Camera! Found this Auckland Cam, though.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:03)

Fellow Weatherwatchers:
For regularly updated info on Nora try...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:12)
EB : You may be right - the same misguided BS that spews forth from the mouths of politicians in both US and Japan on a regular basis could be good for a few percent on the Yen. HK is never quiet, but at the moment it seems apprehensive ( about the future, that is ) .

AURIC : Exactly right, IMHO.

Cheers, Milhouse

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:22)

Here is a good summary of the latest El Nino
forecasts from Meteorologists in California.
ml They're getting serious.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:28)

Try again.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:45)

AURIC:What an incredibly awesome 'el nino' site!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 05:51)
@ Home

Shanoon--Those guys are serious. Are you on a Webtv also?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 06:25)

Yes! Saturday morning at Kitco. Looking forward to comments on this weeks Barron's from Donald et al.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 06:35)
Japan says it will not intentionally send the yen lower.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 06:39)
Malaysia asks IMF help in curbing currency speculators.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 06:43)
U.S. Mint says platinum coins now on sale.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 06:50)
Economic changes in China could cause a torrent of exports, worldwide deflation and recession unless China improves its domestic consumption of the products it produces.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 07:27)
Barron's, Michael Santoli, has virtually his entire column devoted to a how-to strategy on making money in gold in this market. The strategy uses options and four to one ratio of reward to risk. A second strategy using the silver-gold ratio is also discussed.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 07:43)
MIRO: Barron's has several references to the Y2K problem, how it will impact hardware sales and lists heavy insider selling at high tech companies. Particularly noteworthy were Dell, Sun and Compaq.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 07:47)
Mornin All! Just back from a TWENTY-ONE hour ISP total blackout...To the ISP parent company ( Hook Up ( har har ) Communications ) I say...."go to HELL"...."if you had any competition ( an evil word here ) you would be out of business in a week" still great on the ocean! EB:WAKE UP you slug and get out on the course...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 07:51)
Auric....Nice photographs of Perth. I'll try to identify that structure when it's daylight.

Gold Trader
(Sat Sep 20 1997 07:57)
in the pit
Donald - Please give use the details on your earlier post. Much appreaciated.

Barron's, Michael Santoli, has virtually his entire column devoted to a how-to strategy on making money in gold in this market. The strategy uses options and four to one ratio of reward to risk. A second strategy using the silver-gold ratio is also discussed.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:02)
Re: Who Cares, police state
Who Cares: Thanks for the excellent article on banning free encrytion the next step in our police state. I will make my four calls! Calling what we have here in the usa a police state may seem too strong. How about a police state with velvet gloves on. The gloves can come off at any time. We paid for much of the police state technology when we were "fighting the commies" during the cold war. For instance NSA has a computer network which intercepts and records most of the worlds e-mail. Computers then run key word searches and select individual e-mails for reading by hundreds of humans. Should this e-mail be encrypted this little game would end. What, how will we catch the bad guys? With all our spy technology, all our computers, all our fbi and cia, all our investigative machinery, we can not conclude that our Navy shot down TWA Flight 800. An event hundreds of people witnessed. Given the available evidence most high school students with no resources can tell you this. Instead we used all this wonderful technology to lie to the American people. The peoples resources being used to lie to the people. Give em more, right, give em hell.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:17)
Ted, with all your ISP problems, why don't you switch to AOL or Compuserve?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:17)
@ Panda,6 pak, Nick(Canberra)
Just did some speed scrollin of the past 21 hours..Panda ( 23:32 ) Good explanation on triple withchin volume and ABX,NEM,and HM...6Pak ( 1:58 ) The "oh well" attitude permeates almost everthing in Cape Breton..enuf said! Nick ( Canberra ) ( 3:50 ) Right on Mate!'ll love kayaking!!! Goin out t'night and will have a snort or TWO....Go Fosters.......and gold..

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:24)
Mornin jkla ( 8:17 ) Switch to WHAT.....sputter...sputter...AOL+Compuserve are NOT available in Cape Breton Nova Scotia and if they were my piece of SH!T ISP would be out of business in a week!!! There is ONE alternative ISP and they are the first company I TRIED to go online with...After THREE days they couldn't even get me online!! our friendly tech support number they would say ( average wait while listening to DISGUSTING musac was approx 50 minutes ) ...and they still couldn't hook me up...At least Hook Up ( hahahaha ) Communications got me online....Anything done RIGHT is frowned upon here....

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:30)
@ I'm outta here
Am off ta get me weekly fix of the "Grope And Flail" Mail...
....Ta Sydney...NS...Go Giants and Barry!

Bob M
(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:33)
Anyone have any idea what a 1934 $500 bill is worth??

(Sat Sep 20 1997 08:52)
There are three of us from the same area: you ( Wizards and Komets fan ) auric and me.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:10)
I love it! A secret plot to go back on the Gold Standard. Just can't trust these governments nohow, can one?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:12)
Equity inflows
...the 'fuel is slowing....

Period ending Sept.15 3.9 bn
Period ending Sept.11 .-8 ( outflow )
Period ending Sept.4 2.2

Caveat: Not all inflows go towards equity funds, but are distributed. Reuters has once 'muffed up' on their reporting of Sept. 15 ( ( see story ) as the distribution does not tally. They show Total inflows of $3.3 split toward:
Aggressive growth had inflows of $1.45 billion compared to $595 million in outflows in the prior period, it said.

Growth funds took in $1.28 billion in funds versus $353 million in outflows, while growth and income funds took in $1.05
billion, up from $553 million inflows, Trim Tabs said.

International equity funds took in $1.41 billion compared to $414 million in outflows, Trim Tabs said.

Total equity funds had inflows of $5.33 billion in the two days versus $1.20 billion in outflows.

Flows into bond funds slowed to $31 million from $210 million in the previous period, it said.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:17)
IMF(gold sales not on agenda)
`Gold sales will not be on the agenda because first of all we must get enough bilateral contributions,'' he said.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:21)
Just for the Record
I would like to remind everyone here that No-one in this group is a bigger bull on the metals then me, and even with my short call position in silver, I would love nothing more than to have the bull market start on Monday. Really. It just I do not see enough evidence quite yet. There are some good signs out there, but not enough.

As far as silver spikes are concerned, don't worry. I'll stop myself out way before silver has a chance to kill me.

But right now the trend is your friend.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:22)
Hello Ted;


My compuserve account has several local log on Number all around the world. why don't you call compuserve and tell them you are spending some time in Cape B. and want to see if they have a local access number?

If they do, open an account give them you CC and surf away. If they ask for a US address, give them one. The address should be of either a private post office or a friend who can fwd mail solicitations you will get.

do you have toll free 800 or 888 phone service? if so try MCI ATT etc.. Get the Picture?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:23)
Strong US $ effect
Consumers in Europe and Asia are not buying the higher priced American products, which is eating away at the U.S. exporters'
NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Corporate America may be screaming that the strong dollar is hurting profits but some experts say big
multinational companies are not doing all they could to help themselves.
The list of companies whose earnings have been the casualties of a higher dollar grew this week. It included Eastman Kodak
Co. and Polaroid Corp., which both issued earning warnings. Earlier, Coca-Cola Co., Gillette Co. and Hewlett-Packard Co.
said the dollar was squeezing profit

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:24)
to TED:

Remember the CBC getting into a twist when Canadian were get Ammerican Sat TV?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:30)
I'm a little puzzled....on your 'short position'....

About a week or so ago, there was a post under your handle which announced that you were 'now long gold' ( paraphrasing ) ...
Was that your posting, and if so what made you change your mind, and go short again?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:35)
Gore hires lawyers
WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Vice President Al Gore hired two private attorneys Friday to defend him against mushrooming
money-raising allegations that could lead to the appointment of an independent counsel.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:35)
Earl -- Do you have the numbers for the forward sales by SWC? Specifically, how much did they forward sell and for what length of time. One would assume ( ! ) , that these forward sales would eventually be settled. At that point, one would hope that they would realize the higher prices for their products and consequently increased operating profits. I know, it's a lot to ask of managment. :- ) )

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:39)
Spikes go both ways
GLENN: Hi Glenn. Let me add some fuel to the silver fire ( pyre? ) . There are some interesting positives here. Especially with the potential inverse Head & Shoulders bottom completing in HM, and the XAU. The daily silver uptrend is still intact. A wedge can now be drawn on the daily chart by connecting recent mini-tops and the underlying uptrend line forward into time where the apex occurs in very early November. After drawing the lines on the chart, I looked in the ephemeris to see which planets would be where around that time, perhaps disclosing a clue relative to NYSE Moon ( silver ) at 19 Aries. Sure enuf, in late October, Mars and Venus conjunct in Sagittarius at 19 degrees. That period of roughly a week and a half of Trine ( 120 degree angle ) to NYSE Moon could be quite enjoyably supportive. Not a blockbuster, by any means, but supportive. At least the astrologicals corroborate the graphic technicals here. So my call is that the rally continues, and the "spike" might be more likely a topping formation in early November. In any case, with that apex at that time window, early November may be the next significant intermediate term turning point in silver. That could mean "down" and "bottom" then, as well, but my vote is we're heading "up" for another 6-8 weeks. This would break silver out of the downtrend connecting the '83 - 87 tops. That breakout level is roughly 4.85 - $5. THAT would be a significant portent for a renewed bull. IMVHAOOC ( In my very humble astrological opinion, of course )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:41)
Japanese (buying less US bonds)
...couldn't link....
September 19, 1997


The Japanese Ministry of Finance's securities investment data for July, which was announced last
Thursday, showed that the negative impact of the yen's surge in May is still hurting Japanese
overall investment foreign bonds.

The amount of net buying moderated to Y513.4 bln in July, from Y659.5bln in June, posting the
fourth consecutive month of declines since April. It is also noteworthy that purchases of foreign
bonds have steadily declined over the past several months. The Japanese bought Y12.6140 tln
worth of foreign bonds in July, compared with Y13.45 tln in June, Y15.5452 tln in May and
Y17.6637 tln in April. The decrease is indicative of a loss of appetite for higher yielding foreign
bonds among investors, due to an increased wariness of forex risks in the wake of the yen's climb
in May.

A further moderation of foreign bond purchases will also probably be seen in the
August-September period, as investors tend to refrain from aggressive trading of foreign bonds in
August because of the Bon festival, a favourite time of vacations for many Japanese businesses.
They are also prone to square some of their foreign bond positions in September, in order to lock
in profits ahead of the end of the fiscal first half, which closes on September 30.

The environment for Japanese offshore investment is not necessarily negative, however. The
contrasting prospects for relative growth between the US and Japan, in fact, remain favourable for
further Japanese investment abroad. Recent US economic data underscore the continued healthy
conditions of the US economy. In particular, consumer confidence measures, such as the
Conference Board's consumer confidence index and the University of Michigan's consumer
sentiment index, continue to hover at near record high levels, suggesting the economy will remain
sound in the coming months.

On the other hand, there is a growing concern that the Japanese economy may experience another
downturn. Japan's Q2 GDP report, released on last Thursday, revealed unexpectedly sharp
negative growth of 11.2% ( SAAR ) , following April 1 consumption-tax hikes to 5% from 3%, and
the abolishment of the special income-tax cut from April.

Indeed, the rate gap between the US and Japan widened once again in August, with the long-term
interest rate spread ( US 30-year bond yield vs. 10-yr Benchmark JGB yield ) broadening to 461
basis points at the end of August, from 419 basis points a month earlier, due mainly to a rapid
decline in the JGB yield. The yield on the #182 JGB fell below 2.0%, hitting a record low of
1.950% on September 16.

The increased likelihood that the Japanese economy will ail for some time to come should also
work to keep the yen on a negative footing. Indeed, USD-JPY pared some of the losses
registered in May, and has lately rebounded to the 121 area, from the 110.65 low on June 11.
Given the prolonged economic malaise in Japan, MMS now expects that the BoJ will remain on
hold at least until mid-calendar year 1998, meaning that interest rates in Japan are very likely to
remain at historic lows for the time being. Japanese investors are still on the lookout for an
opportunity to pick up higher yields abroad. And radically low domestic Japanese interest rates
will see the flow of investor money into foreign bonds continue in the second half of FY97.

Standard & Poor's MMS is the leading independent source of analysis for global debt and
currency markets, providing information services that are used by traders and money
managers worldwide. Standard & Poor's MMS is a unit of the McGraw-Hill Companies and
is based in New York.

Copyright 1997, by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:47)
For Those who wish to fight against the congressional bill on encryption; here is a list of US senator's e-mail addresses:

My pocket
(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:52)
was picked
Glenn, I think my pocket was picked on the Comex FRiday.

I went long Feb 98 gold @ 326.1

If you had made this trade, would you close it out Sunday on the Access?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 09:57)
XAU sudden close just below 95 looks like they are playing index option shenanigans with the index on expiry.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:06)
RE your 21:50 on oil shares; especially small producers and exploration co.s.A little good news goes a long way, I've a 120k position in XCL ( amer. ex. ) for over a year, with their partner, Apache, they tested five zones for 8,300+ bpd and have 5 zones yet to test: share price up 50% in two days. there's lots of good plays on some little guys out there right now.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:06)
Where is Steve Peutz/ I am ready for some monday morning quarterback type commentary. Will Jerry Favors and ( delayed ) Peutz be right. Any comments on Silver Lease rates.Are we ready for the big rally like the '95 440-620 in three months. Comex warehouse stocks at record lows/ Merrill guy says irrelevant no sqeeze possible. Whats anyone think. Thanks LGB SSC is doing great/ whats goin on there/ is it predicting up in silver or is it something with the co or is it benefiting from mutual fund money and tired sellers.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:12)
IMF meetings
....Tietmeyer's comments are very significant...they're disagreeing...
The G7 ministers said in a statement at the end of their talks: "We agreed that exchange rates should reflect economic
fundamentals and that excess volatility and significant deviations from fundamentals were undesirable."
Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin even took the unusual step of enlisting the help of Federal Reserve Chairman Alan
Greenspan to convince Japanese Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka that time was running out and Japan had to act now.
Bundesbank President Hans Tietmeyer said monetary policy had not been an issue during the G7 talks. "It played no part," he
told a news briefing, adding: "Not that you should necessarily read into that that everyone was entirely happy."

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:14)
I love the smell of Kitco in the morning.

Badger: Look at TMR also, they are way up over the last few weeks, coming off a 9 7/8 low to close above 14 yesterday. They are developing fields in the same area as American Exploration.

Panda: The hedging info you seek is in the 2nd quarter filing for SWC. I have it somewhere and will look today, if Earl doesn't beat me to it.: ) I sold half my position last week and put it in silver ( SSC ) and more oil ( TMR ) . They both beat SWC for the week. BBL.

Senator Blutarsky
(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:16)
The Charitable

Looking for charities in need of $200. Any ideas?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:23)
Re: When to go long on gold
Barron's has had several articles on gold in the last two weeks. Technical patterns also suggest that the gold bullion bear is almost over -- review of historical cycle data would also suggest this.
There is one deadline coming up that would affect investor sentiment, namely the effective EMU deadline for central bank gold sales. Am I correct in choosing Jan 1998? Perhaps Italy and Spain will aim for a later deadline to fix their balance sheets.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:30)
All liberaterian and leftists should read Noam Chomsky a great thinker. Go into a search engine and type in Noam Chomsky. He has great book on manufactured consent.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:50)
A good article "Noam Chomsky on Liberalism"

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:52)
"I think we will do that," Mr Soedradjad said when asked by a
reporter if Bank Indonesia, the central bank, will liquidate commercial

He declined to say which Indonesian banks, or how many of the
more than 250 institutions, are in trouble. "Don't push me on how
many and when," he said.

Mr Soedradjad, sipping coffee between sessions at the International
Monetary Fund's ( IMF ) annual meeting in Hongkong, also reiterated
his preference for struggling banks to merge with healthier rivals or
find new sources of funding rather than liquidate.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:53)
Mike Sheller: I enjoyed your silver comments 9/20/97 09:39. Do you know of any references on financial Astrology that actually summarize the correlations between the market and the planets? Virtually every book I have read simply summarizes the conclusions of the author, with little actual data. I have Henry Weingarten's introductory book, and several of the Dewey books from the Center for Cycles Analysis.
I am puzzling over the actual mechanism for all of this, and suspect that the answer is in the "new physics" revolution. There is clearly a physical phenomenon with a lunar or solar eclipse, and it is not classical gravitation. It is becoming more and more clear to physicists that the entire universe is interconnected, namely past present and future time, as well as space. Think of how much everyone would benefit if we understood more of this!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:59)
Panda & Earl: SWC has forward sold all of their palladium production at low prices through 1998. This is true unless their production really takes off. Platinum is a better story, their forward sales should be just about over. They are selling platinum at market prices now and the 1998 hedge is only about 1/7 of production. Unfortunately, they produce 3.5 times more paladium than platinum. Management changes were made in August. Time will tell. The story is told in the 2nd quarter report which is available via EDGAR. More upon request. Off to read Barron's and find out how make money in gold. I sure as *?@& don't know how now.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 10:59)
An interview with Noam Chomsky His views may buttress kitco manipulation theories.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:02)
Historical precedent suggests House Of Rothschild is buying gold hand over fist! See extensive analysis review of what the the Richest Family in the world is investing in now:

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:11)
CPI, Inflation and Statistics

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:22)
THE Hong Kong ORACLE Speaks
With Churchillian clarity & logic Guest Guru Milhouse analyzes Alan Greenspans "secret weapon to ensure economy doesnt dive. M-3 accelerated growth is keystone to higher GOLD prices:

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:25)
"From Containment to Rollback :Democracy, Human Rights, and Markets in the New World Order." Noam Chomsky see

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:26)
Support for Puetz et al from Program Trading

Most of the patterns matching best for today favor the bears. The highs are in the morning and usually at 8:30 and 8:40. Occasionally the rally stretches out until 10:30 ( but the panic rally yesterday into 11:40 stretched most of the generals, oils, and bank stocks about as far as they can stretch ) and there is almost always some sort of pop at 12:05 and 12:20 on Friday's ( and a damn good place to short ) . The lows are
usually in the afternoon at 3:15. These patterns suggest shorting the opening for a selloff all day long. But, the odds of this pattern repeating are only 60/40.

BUT ( and this is a big one ) , today is the third trading day AFTER a Full Moon. Ordinarily that day is the single best day to be short during this time of the month. So is the fourth ( Monday ) and the fifth ( Tuesday ) , AND if it doesn't crack on the fifth too, so is the seventh ( Thursday ) . PLUS, from earlier reports this week you know that next Wednesday is the primary cycle day from both crashes. So buying puts this morning with the idea of holding them next week may pay off a lot more than betting on Florida tomorrow.

Which is mainly a media event now and not any different than any other option expiration Friday. Look for selling at 2:15 dropping the spread and the Dow down an into a reversal time at 2:25 that is usually negative. In the old days this reversal would be negative because of some "doom & gloom" rumor hitting the spoo pit, giving the locals a way to load up for a bounce into the close once the d&g rumor was denied, usually around 2:45. In the past few years that game just faded away and lately the exact opposite has been true, with "good" news hitting the pits instead, and the locals using it to sell the spoos ( read that tank the OEX ) into the close. That pattern puts the spoos going out on the low of the day at 3:15. AND today is the third trading day AFTER a Full Moon. That is the best day to be short during this time of the month. So if the Dow drops -216 today, don't be surprised. It's done it twice the penny.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:30)
CORRECTION Chomsky sight on mkts and New World Order is

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:31)
RON ( or other mathmatical genius ) : How many dollars ( in today's values ) would it take to buy ALL the stock of all the gold mines in the world? Then, how many dollars would it take to buy all the above-ground gold?? Third, what could you do with all that gold???....... ( ... silver? )

Senator Blutarsky
(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:32)
The Literate

WW: Would you sum up in a succinct sentence what Chomsky is saying?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:36)
More Noam Chomsky /read now thank me later.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:41)
Noam is anti statist and believes the state exists for the benefit of the wealthy and basically transfers benefits to the wealthy from everyone else. Nevertheless the anger by propaganda is directed against the state so that people will not recognize private power as a source of their pain as a result of taxation and budget cuts. He is anti state to the extent it benefits the wealthy and powerful and supports the state to the extent that it supports democracy and the general good. READ HIS ARTICLES. If we are honest with ourselves upon critical analysis we will agree with him.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:43)
speed -- Thanks for the information. What! You mean to tell me that you have trouble making money in gold too! :- ) ) And here I thought, it was just me! :- ) )

FWIW -- If the CPM group is right about the PGM story for the next year or two, then SWC should be a good long term play. Then again, if SWC forward sold the PA production through 1998!!!! What were they thinking!!@ Here's a suggestion for SWC, borrow some money and BUY BACK your contracts on a pull back! Then do spot sales only. After the Russians fail to deliver again, of course...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:47)
gotta' go to the festivities......I'll check in tonite for any answers to my 11:31...... ( Hi Ted! )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:56)
Speed: Thanks for the info. I had it from a post several weeks ago but lost it.

Panda: When I took my last position in SWC, I felt confident that the hedge position was already discounted. Wrong. ..... Can't make money in PGM's either. Eh? ...... : )

Senator Blutarsky
(Sat Sep 20 1997 11:58)
ain't a statist

WW: Do you think there is any link between the lease rate on PM's and the LMBA?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:05)
Panda: SWC has one ace up their sleeve and that is the new expansion which is just coming on-line. If they can rev up production and surpass their hedge contracts, then they will really make some money.

WW: I realize that I risk starting a food fight in the a.m. but here are a few of points to consider:

1. Rich people don't need government in order to transfer wealth to themselves. They are rich because they have talent, recognize opportunities and take risks. I believe J.P Morgan is credited with saying, "If everybody on earth started even with a dollar at 8:00 am, by noon I'd be the richest man on the planet."

2. Noam Chomsky is a socialist and a statist. He is not a libertarian, nor a conservative. He is against those aspects of government which favor business but is in favor of those aspects of government which are "social" in nature.

3. It is logically impossible to be a libertarian and a socialist. Puhleeeeease try to get a firm grasp of the meaning of these terms!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:14)
Earl: If the backwardation in PGMS stops, then SWC can make money. Of course, as Don Meredith ( Dallas Cowboy's QB ) put it: "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas." Away to the highways and byways on my 10-SPEED. BBL

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:14)
I know that this is a precious medal discussion group, but I have seen comments about oil in the past. I mainly have a question regarding whether any one has ever heard of Seven Seas Petroleum. It is a oil exploration company out of Canada and I can't find any information or news about the company.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:22)
Rongo: Try this:

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:29)
Speed : Noam is talking about corporate power being used to steal from working people through taxation, budget cuts etc. Corps are nothing more than private govt's who try to influence the the public govt for their interests and against 99% of the people. This is why we need campaign finance reform. Noam Chomsky is a Liberaterian for the working people against the arrogance of the corporate elitists.n Go Noam

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:31)

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:33)
I am not sure how could it be. All I know is the high lease rate means supply tightness. Anyway we can compare to lease rates in 2/-3/95 or 12/95 time of the last significant rallies?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:36)
WW: To attempt the construction of a state that "serves" the needs of the many - of modest means - at the expense of the few - "malefactors of great wealth" : ) - is a singular and structural impossibility. It fails to recognize the natural human need to better our position. By whatever means are available.

It therefore follows that the wealthy will always have at their disposal greater means than the rest of us and an inexorable corruption of state values will always be the inevitable result. No finer example is available for our viewing pleasure than the political history of the US.

Beginning with a constitution that clearly limited the powers of the central government, we now find ourselves in a position of mere wards of the state. In its formation, the constitution clearly limited state powers with all other powers remaining in the hands of the people. Now we find ourselves in a complete reversal of that situation. All through the natural coupling of ministers of state and moneyed interests. All accomplished via a mechanism of moral, intellectual and legal bankruptcy.

The key element in all of this, IMO, is the word: SERVE OR SERVICE.

The corruption of an otherwise fine concept begins with the word "serve". It opens the political process to all forms of chicanery that, in the end, first serve the needs of the least "needy" at the expense of the many. Ministers of state, have needs as well, and will always find their needs more closely allied with the needs of the few. Active engagement of the word 'service' allows them to confuse the issue, in the minds of the many, and pursue their personal ends in concert with the few. All with total impunity and at the expense of the rest of us.

There is not a problem of state facing us today that could not be totally eliminated with a return to a strict interpretation of the constitition. First item on the agenda for a return to that position must a be total elimination of the concept of "state service" in all of its variegated forms.

Failing that, modifications by statute, are not merely doomed to failure but will be used as actual vehicles to further extend the already bloated powers of a corrupt state. The framers of the constitution, clearly recognised this as the natural need and tendency of the human species. Our inability to grasp that idea will insure that we continue to wallow in this hog slop forever.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:38)
Read Noam and Learn with a capital L. AGAIN ( many great articles ) read before you critcize.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:40)
NOAM at Many enlightening articles learn the truth and be brave enough to face it.

ted butler
(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:47)
three down, one to go?
Ive read a few comments and questions regarding the recent rise in silver lease rates, along with a notable lack of cogent explanations here or anywhere else. I also have more questions than answers, but I sense this rise could be potentially the bell that never rings at tops or bottoms. It seems clear to me that leasing has overwhelmed the fundamentals in precious metals for years, and if true, it should follow that the lease rate is more important than the flat price. That is, if the marginal supply to the market is coming from loans, the price of the loan is more important than the price of the metal. Not forever, but while new loans of metal are forthcoming. When the loan experiment ends, the price of the commodity will once again regain its rightful role in the supply demand equation.

Thats why the recent tripling of the silver lease rate is so potentially significant There is no way for me to know the root cause of this rise ( only the direct participants would know ) , but there can only be a couple of possibilities. One is a surge in demand for borrowings, which may continue or end at any moment. The other is a loss of supply, due to an unwillingness to lend, which also may be temporary or more long-lasting. ( For instance, a major lender of silver might have come to his senses, and decided future prospects of repayment werent comforting. ) The loss of lending supply might also be based upon the physical exhaustion of lending silver stocks, as was the case in platinum and palladium several months ago.

If the rise in lease rates reflects a newfound unwillingness by the lenders ( or lender, as there isnt a lot of them ) or the depletion of lending supply, watch out above. I dont know if this is the start of the big one in silver, but I think if it were, it would look a lot like it does right now.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:48)
EB read Noam/ historically where labor organizes democratic and economically just results follow. As Noam states the US is way out in left field with respect to worker protection and benefits. He notes even Canada has a Health Care system which from what I can tell most workers like. WSJ Poll yesterday shows the population is again moving to the left. This is probably because instinctively they know they are getting screwed. Public support for Teamsters UPS strike is also encouraging. I am not a pessimist I think things in America can and will turn for the better. Corrporate greed is sowing the seeds for its own demise and a resurgency of democracy and freedom in this country.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:57)
Speed: Per your quote: "I believe J.P Morgan is credited with saying, "If everybody on earth started even with a dollar at 8:00 am, by noon I'd be the richest man on the planet." ............. And I do believe he would accomplish this task with the full aid and comfort of his 'friends' in high government position. People who will always remain inaccessible to the rest of us.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 12:58)
jfkdlsa ( what a name ( ? ) ( 9:22 ) Thankx...I'll look into compuserve but I'd be amazed if I could use them HERE....Hockey Fans: The 'little woman" and I have tickets on the ice next to the penalty box for the first ever "Cape Breton Screaming Eagles" game tonight...they are a new franchise in the QMJL ( Quebec Major Junior league ) ...a great brand of hockey that produced such notables as Patrick Roy and Mario Lemieux....and next years supposed # 1 draft pick in the NHL,Vincent Lecavalier of the Rimouski Oceanic....Go Eagles.....and gold....HI SAVAGE!

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:05)
re our friend WW
EARL: Thanks, Pal, you saved me a lot of time. I would only add that corporations are just another form of the right to FREE ASSEMBLY. This is an inherent HUMAN right, not CONFERRED by government. Therefore, it is Government, by its very existence and unlimited power over individuals, that is the overweening lawbreaker and evil doer. Individuals can choose with whom they wish to assemble, and for what purposes. This is Freedom and Commerce. Government , on the other hand, appropriates the substance of individuals to use for purposes that many of those individuals would not have freely chosen to lend their substance to. In response, free assemblies of individuals must, through the flaws of human nature, pressure and influence government to favor particular causes. This sets citizen against citizen, group against group, in a manner transcending the natural order of human interests. If there were no powerful government TO influence, the evils done by humanity to itself would at least be more natural and certainly less pronounced. Unless one is inane enough to believe that a vow of "service" in government suddenly makes a human being far more moral that anyone else.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:08)
WW: As an afterthought; the framers of the constitution did not include the "electoral college" provision because they held any silly notions about the reasoning powers of the general populace. Even in their time they clearly recognized that 1/2 of the population is below median intelligence. Any formal recognition of that fact would put to flight all notions of reform by popular mandate.

Service to the many, means money from "the other guy". If government is in the business of service, it means the "little guy" might get some. 50% of the population, ain't rocket scientists and simple majority rules.

Democracy: "Where we cheat the other guy and pass the money on to you". Helluva concept. .............. As a rejoinder to your's of Noam Chomsky, I would offer Ayn Rand and her "Virtue of Selfishness". I'm presently in a re-read after 30 years. Vital stuff. But it will not sit well with those who find themselves in "service to humanity".

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:11)
Although I trade the charts, I like to keep track of the "funnymentals". Fundamentals are very useful in understanding a market move AFTER it takes place ( because the market is a discounting mechanism ) . The market broke out in Dec '94 for the greatest bull move in history at the very time Klinton was pushing GATT through a lame duck congress, with the help of Neutered Gingrich. "Free" trade allows multi-nationals to grow earnings at upwards of twice as fast as top line growth, because of the two-pronged effects of cheap goods inflows and downward pressure on wages and salaries here. Read today's Barrons, and you will see that corporate profits have grown at double digit rates EVERY quarter that Klinton has been in office, while real earnings of the employees of said corporations have fallen. The sheer political genius of the Klintonistas is evidenced by the fact that, in the face of this massive shift of wealth from the middle class to Bobby Rubins peers, Slick is still the most popular President at this stage of his tenure, in the history of polling.

Now Der Schlichtmeister is on the verge of being granted "fast track" authority by the Gringichites to bring another large chunk of the third world into the orb of the Multi-nationals. With the S&P only a day's range from breaking out to new highs, it will be interesting to see if the prospect of Klinton's new "Super-NAFTA" will be sufficient to bring on another complete bull leg in stocks and drive the yellow metal deep into the 200's, where Bobby Rubin wants it.

Earl: The left has been winning most of our lives for one simple reason: The left will FIGHT. Sure, they have none of the facts on their side, but they BELIEVE. In the face of the proven failure of "Democratic Socialism" all over the western world, with religious fervor, they still BELIEVE. This quasi-religious belief is so strong that they will come on a gold-bug channel and plug the writings of one of the century's most extreme leftists, Noam Chomsky. Can you imagine what would happen to you or me, if we went on one of the left's chat-room playgrounds and plugged the books of Harry Browne?

We can win-----if we ever decide to fight.

ps: with algore's political life on a respirator and fading fast, who do you think they are setting up for the 2000 run to replace Bill?

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:14)
Chomsky / Encryption

Although I agree with WW's concerns, I don't agree with the
methods. Either way, Chomsky is a MUST read if you never have,
just to get another perspective on what the HELL is really going

Please don't construe my posting of the anti-encryption bill
as political activism, as I de-registered as a voter in '94,
after twenty years of straight voting.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:17)
@CobWebHead...aka Fosters Alley...ouch...
On WebTV - Didn't BillG buy that company?? That's what we need to do is to support that Juggernaut some more...

DJ - Thanks but I would be a VERY-BAD cop. You think Rodney got a good beating ;- ) ... The proper solution is to just use the scroll bar, NO?

Nick ( can ) and others OZ's - How about that Davis Cup?? Rafter can play! Chang dodged a bullet...Good to hear that you smack the white ball...still thick from last night, I fought a galliant battle with the Bitter...

Donald - You are beautiful, kind sir! Your 6:35 is what I've been talking about. The SAME thing happened in Early MAY. Just after a G7 meeting look what happened to the YEN ( $11,000+/contract ) . I made a BOATLOAD...there is still time for all interested ;- ) ( disclaimers apply )

NoMercy 9:41-10:12 - good articles, thanks. All this talk of where the Yen 'should' be is great news for a good bounce. I LOVE G7 meetings...the time is right...

All - sorry about all this yen talk of late. I just have a gut feeling and it's approaching contract lows. imvho, we will not reach this support...before 'lift-off'... ( more disclaimers ) ...

My Pocket - Reverse that and go short...soon... Get real, Get Plat! eh MikeS?

Ted - Mornin' you Kayakin' DOG! The Giants??!?!! You're killin' me you know I am really a Padre fan but they suck so I gotta root for the next best...Get Real , GO BLUE!!

Barry Bonds - you'll be playing golf come October... lick my wounds

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:19)
Physics, Psychics, what's the difference?
JTFLICK: re interconnectedness of the universe just being "discovered" by more and more physicists: DUHHH! re financial astrology, etc, I have not been impressed by most of Henry's astrological calls in the markets. I am impressed with his wonderful promotional activity. Finding which planets represent what and do what to who is a process of time and experience for astrologers. One of the sorriest mistakes many people make who try to use astronomical phenomena for market prediction is that they don't use a horoscope. People who use transiting phenomena related statistically to past events only have half an equation. They reject the horoscope because that is ASTROLOGICAL, while they wish to be seen as "scientific" and ASTRONOMICAL. This way they are a little unique, perhaps even dramatically avante garde, but not a "kooky astrologer." Astrology is essentially the art of understanding the symbolic meaning behind universal ACTIVITIES, and the fields within which these activities interrelate. This study is highly conceptual, psychological, and symbolic. Most linear thinkers who are concerned with what the world thinks, and what the world thinks of THEM, are doomed from the start. Truth is not something that is corroborated by consensus. Astrology is a lifelong study, and the application of what is learned is a profound and subtle art. And usually best appreciated in retrospect.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:26)
Were you asking ME to read Chomsky? Or was that a mistake...?


Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:27)
Oldman / Chomsky / New Orbs

Oldman, several points -

#1 - Please don't marginalize Chomsky by using terms like
"extreme leftists". The guy is worth reading. Ultimately,
left becomes right if you spin around far enough.

#2 - Your comments are Klinton are succinct and clear. Better
than I would have written. If anybody remembers, one of my
scenarios where Greenspan & CO keep the present system going is
to bring in another "free trade" partner, to tack another layer
under the pyramid, to keep it going.

I believe the people in the Federal Government know EXACTLY
what they are doing in regards to keeping the bubble going.

Reference post-Civil War versus Great Depression. Check out
the economic pattern. Post-Civil War pursued "free trade"
policies, which did not ultimately PREVENT depressions, but
staggered them out over longer time periods, ergo we get TWO
SMALLER depressions, separated by fifteen years, versus ONE
WHOPPER depression in 1929. 1991-1994 comes close to
meeting the pattern of the initial depression of 1873.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:29)
You gotta be a currency trader...any thoughts??


btw to all - isn't a stronger yen good for gold??

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:29)
Chomsky, Part II

*EVERYBODY* should read Chomsky, particularly if they wish to
preserve their belief that explicit conspiracies don't exist.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:31)
Mike: Absolutely. We are "endowed by nature" with certain rights. The right to free association being just one of many. At the same time we cannot help but to recognise that free collections of individuals will always seek to aggrandize their collective position. If the power of government is available for that purpose, it is only a matter of money that separates collective will from actual accomplishment. Associations of men, whether of commerce or theology always gravitate in the same direction! ........ I'm compelled to argue with your idea of human "failing" - I think that was the word you used. If man is acting according to his nature; how does that become a failing? I would argue that the failing is really in a system that does not recognise the inate nature of man and thereby limit his ability to unfairly bolster his position, at the expense of, and while limiting the choices available to his fellows.

The human race had a shining moment with the formulation of the US constitution, 200 years ago. It could have been a "light in the window" for all men for all time. It was period that will be looked on with fondness as the process of social entropy continues. Given the quality of education and the irrational nature of present day human action, we may rest assured that the down portion of the cycle has only begun.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:32)
Right is Right, Left is wrong
OLDMAN: I might add that the left has also derived an enormous power from its pre-emption of the "moral high ground." Most people mistake sentiment, especially couched as "compassion," for morality. It is very difficult for people who think little and shallowly to see the moral foundation of freedom and responsibility, the superior effectiveness of voluntary activity, and the true brotherhood and respect for humanity that prevents one human from forcing another, by government or otherwise, to act or believe in any certain way. Such thinking requires much insight, and discipline. Especially to live by those thoughts. What passes for the "right" these days is indeed a neutered shadow of what could be, properly presented, a truly moral philosophy. Of course, that philosophy might threaten many "rightward" politicians these days, as well.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:33)
JTFlick - re: probabilities, moons, etc. I'm not so sure that 1 one in three hit is as good as it looks. Basicly if it isn't at least a 1 in 2, then your odds are worse than simply flipping a coin ( gold of course ) . I have the same feeling about long range weather forcasts.

WEBtv rules.

Out to pick some pears and elderberries.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:40)
Left and Right are misbegotten notions

Just as the axis is not "inflation - deflation", but "status quo -
no", the axis of "left" and "right" is a poor model. The new model
should be, IMHO, "libertarian - statist".

It was the "right" which did the bait-&-switch on the encryption
bill, cut-&-pasted the Expatriate tax bill into an unsuspecting
bill to avoid public outrage, passed NAFTA and GATT in rushed
sessions in the face of public opposition, and is been "fumbling"
the Chinese Sell-out into incomprehensible muck.

The Republicans and Democrats represent the ULTIMATE oligopoly.
Try swirling THAT association around in your mind for a few

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:44)
Flailing, Failing, isn't it the same?
EARL: I see man as having a somewhat mixed nature. I see ALL the attributes of the Divine in Man. Attributes without any one of which, "God" itself would be a doddering idiot and impotent fool.
Man has Consciousness, Will, Reason and Perception. The interaction of these attributes brings him Intelligence. The refusal to develop and refine the interaction of these faculties makes man, at times, lower than a beast. A Leopard is true to its nature just doing what it does. A pig is true to its nature just doing what IT does. But if we look at what man generally does over history, just doing what HE does, we know, somehow, as glorious as man is already, that that is not enough. That something is wrong. Something can be better. This is what I mean when I talk about "human imperfection." We are fallen, and we can't get up. But we have fallen from a place that we have it in us to return to once again. Only it takes work. Spiritual and mental work. And it can't be given to us by religions or governments. We each have to do it for ourselves. If we do, then EVERYONE benefits. If we don't, then the world becomes a living hell.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:46)
GOLD TRADER: I am doing a lot of family stuff today. Here is the shortest one. Check in tomorrow for the other....Barron's, Michael Santoli...For still another way to trade gold that doesn't rely on a big move in its price, Prudential Securities'Don Selkinlast week was telling clients to keep an eye on the gold/silver ratio. With gold's sluggishness and a rebound in silver prices tied to strong economic growth ( silver has a number of industrial uses ) , the ratio has narrowed from 76:1 in mid-July to about 68:1, based upon the December contracts. The December gold/silver ratio has been as low only a few times in this decade, but Selkin believes it can drop as far as 66. His advice is to watch for the ratio to widen to above 70, then buy December silver and sell gold to play the narrowing he expects.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:50)
Oldman: "We can win-----if we ever decide to fight." ......... That's what we're about, Amigo. Slide that CD of the "The Third Brandenburg" into the machine, grab your keyboard and go to war. The war of ideas.

For those with the power of their convictions, it's a helluva lot of fun as well. A whole lot more fun than watchin' GC fall thru its excretive orifice. ......... As well, do not overlook the magnificent power of a hearty belly laugh when confronted by the incomprehensible silliness of those who would continue to enslave us. Their ideas are so important them, so poorly thought out, and so ridiculously contradictory, that they cannot abide ridicule from a rational perspective. ........ Got the idea from Mencken. He used it with great effectiveness. Do not ever give up the fight. It's too important and too much fun. IMO. .......... Be like the Irish: "Whom God hath made angry. For all their songs are sad and all their wars are merry".

(Sat Sep 20 1997 13:58)

I wonder who Clinton would choose as VP if Gore "steps down".

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:01)
Who Cares?: I like your new axis of Libertarian-Statist. The left-right axis creates a false dichotomy between fascists and communists, treating them as opposites, when in fact they are the same thing-totalitarians. Where would you put anarchists on your scale? : )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:05)
@The Public Library
A Reminder As To Where We Are: The S&P 500 chart going back to 1870 in 1997 Constant Dollars.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:05)
auric: When Algore goes, I dont know who Slick will tap, but I know who he wont pick----Anyone who could oppose Hillary for the '00 nomination.
Who C: Anyone who looks to the state for solutions is a leftist in my book.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:06)

Anarchists would HAVE to be Libertarians, wouldn't they? : )

I like that axis, too. It makes everything a lot clearer. For
the life of me, I can't understand why each party insists on
including half-good & half-evil attributes. My personal guess
is that the Crash, when it comes, will disintegrate the Democrats,
and split the Republicans into Libertarians versus Religious Right.
The statists in the Demos will have be forced to side with the RRs,
and the true Democrats will be forced to side with Libertarians. : )

That's the reason a third party has been bubbling under the
surface for the past few years. A change in the axis is coming. : )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:07)
Mike and Who Cares: A necessary prerequisite to the order of battle is to recognise that those of the "right" or "conservative" as popularly conceived and served to us are, in reality, nothing more than the sycophantic handmaidens of our enslavers. It matters little if those terms are adjectively modified by terms such as, religious, commercial or political. The net remains the same. They are intent upon pressing us into their service. Any concept that diminshes the individual for the greater good of society is a foul stench in the nostrils of free men everywhere.

I won't pretend to speak for others but I have never felt that my Momma put me on this earth to forcibly serve the greater needs of others, who are perfectly capable of gettin' it fer themselves. .......... WW: I would have expected a counter with a Mother Theresa argument by now. Where is it?

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:08)

Oldman - anyone who believes the state can be dispenses with
entirely is foolish, im my opinion. : ) Better to remain close
to your enemies, is it not?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:12)
If you want to see the future, perhaps you must look to the past. Mike Sheller translates Fractal Theory into laymans terms - drawing prophetic parellels to the 1985 Gold market:

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:13)
Who Cares: A Libertarian has been defined as an Objectivist who declines the philosophy. They want the politics but not the other...... Like have grand system of roads without a map. IMO.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:22)
All: I don't know if this was posted here before but this is a great site for US weather, satellite views. Very detailed.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:29)
For WW
While I disagree with you on almost everything, I MAY
agree with you on one thing. I think some people make
WAY too much money. I'm thinking of the entertainment
and media industry as well as professional sports stars.
I believe that stock options to company management
is an excellent practice. I wish that the management
of any company I own stock in is paid mostly by stock
options with only a poverty line salary. So if my stock
doesnt go up, they dont eat too well. I also agree that
some company top exectutives ARE overpaid. I think 2
million a year earned salary should be tops. However,
there should be no capital gains tax, since risk is
involved. things can go down as well as up and if a
guy takes a chance and wins - its nobody else's business
- same as if he loses.
I would tax all earned income over 2 milion bucks at
90 % - Movie stars would have no loopholes available.
I would start with the more liberal movie stars - say
Streisand, woopie Goldberg, and K. Kostner. I would
then move on to lawyers - trial lawyers mainly.
I would tax them at an even HIGHER rate and with a LOWER
break point say 25000 a year max.
I would then distribute the funds from such taxation
to the poorest people - but not by setting up a useless
bureaucracy for distribution ( where all the money will be
absorbed by the cost of the organization ) - maybe by
dropping gold coins from helicopters over ghetto areas.
Maybe not - Ill have to think about that part some more.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:31)
Oldman: IMO, we do ourselves a disservice when we continue to confect, define and use labels. They serve no useful purpose. They only serve the interest of those who would use them to confuse the terms of the argument and do us harm. Better to confine the argument to a narrow venue: The power of the state vs the individual.

That has been the argument of record for the whole of human history. Whether of Kings or of Congress, the willful extension of power by one man over another, by force of law. Rule by divine right or the late stage corruption of a legal and principled document, the issue remains the same. Unfortunately, in today's world, the issue is poorly joined....... for a lack of interest.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:34)
For Ted Butler

I'm really glad someone else is looking at this. I
think it's interesting but I dont understand some things.
For example, I think that another variable that may be
important is the SUM of the lease rate and the forward
rate. At the time of the 1993 bull, it appears ( on Bart's
charts ) that the sum of the two rates rose ABOVE the
prime rate. Thats not the case now. US prime is 8.5%
and UK prime is 7.5 ( per the Economist ) . The sum of gold
lease plus forward rate is around 6% ( all one year basis ) .
So I wonder if companies in the Gold industry maybe
or really anyone could arrange financing via a one year
gold lease and sale of that gold plus a forward puchase
of the corresponding gold. Thus they would have a no risk
gold based loan at 3 + 3 %, and be in well under the
prime rate. If this were possible ( and Im not missing
something ) , then sales up front would make short sales
and CB sales tiny by comparison, and would put enormous
pressure on the gold price.
Obviously, if the prime dropped below the "SUM", then
the sales for finance would dry up.
Is there something wrong with my assumption?? Is there
something else that Im mising that makes this kind of
financing unlikely.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:41)
@the scene
John Disney -- Go ahead and take away the incentive to be 'successful'. See where it gets you! They may not 'need' the money, but where do you think seed money for new business investments come from? Perhaps it is picked from trees like apples? Where do you think most ( by far ) employment comes from? It comes from entreprenuers who risk their hard earned savings to do 'better'. And they employ people, perhaps like you and me! And they would RISK those savings that could otherwise sit and earn 'interest' if you were to tax them like that on being successful? Remember the childhood story about the goose that laid the golden egg? Perhaps you might take that a bit more to heart!!!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:46)
@the scene
Chomsky equates to 'bad vibes' in my book!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:48)
John Disney: I hope you are kidding about that "maximum wage" idea. It is the matching book end to the statist notion of a minimum wage. Scattering gold coins over poor folks would first require education. Gold coins look much like arcade tokens. ; )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:55)
Mike Sheller: Your criticism is on the mark. For thousands of years, Astrology and Astronomy were inseparable professions, equally respected. The linear thinkers ( causality above all else ) have prevailed for approximately 100 years, leading to significant advances in technology, such as the computer you are undoubtedly using to create your Horoscopes. I propose to you that some of those "linear thinkers" are now willing to encompass syncronicity, psychology, and psychic phenomena. If the Astrologers and the Astronomers join forces again with our new analytical tools, wouldn't everyone benefit? Wouldn't you like to see an extensive comparison of Egyptian/Sumerian/Chinese/European ( ? ) /Mayan, etc Astrology?
Religion is clearly subject to human interpretation, and what is common to all religions is likely to be very important. Likewise for the different versions of Astrology. I suspect that advancing our understanding of this area will literally be our ticket to the Stars, or at least to a global awakening of the human spirit.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:55)
encryption, White House Pager Interception
There you have it - White House pager traffic was intercepted
it points to transcript of intercepted traffic
maybe it'll help a bit in changig dirrection in current
discussion on need for encryption

(Sat Sep 20 1997 14:56)
John Disney: Whatever the merits of your personal compensation comments, it would seem to me that they are really irrelevent.

Ignoring the marvel of the US tax code, if Herr Vronsky in his capacity as major domo of Hyper Amalgamated International Gold Eagle Enterprises Inc, proposes to pay himself 10 mil + perq's+ options and etc; the issue remains confined to an intracollective realm. It has nothing to do with anyone who chooses not be a member of that collective. Ball players, movie stars and etc are equally divorced from the argument. We can choose to contribute to their largess or not, as it pleases us.

We are not however equally free to pick and choose among the collectives that WW and his minions would have us support. They will choose for us. A vital difference. ........ But I fear I belabor the obvious.

Enslavement of the domestic variety beckons. ~~poof~~

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:01)
@the scene
Earl -- It's great to see you back in 'form' lately! Also, the 'label' syndrome: You said a real mouthful there!

John Disney -- Another thing; Are not all people created equally? If so, should they not all live under a tax law that is equal amongst them. Not one that is 'more equal' for some? Do not a lot of 'under-earners' enjoy that which was provided by the 'overearners' in the many varied forms of entertainment, theatre, art, and all the way down to 'a better neighborhood'? I would think that these things might give the 'poorer 'class'' something to shooot for. Why go in the opposite direction and make everyone poor? I hope you don't consider that 'fun' or in any sense 'better'! Personally, I want RICH and successful about! Shoot, they might even want to invest/buy a better 'mousetrap'! Something that can also wind up helping the 'little guy'! You all need to figure out how money works and WHY!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:09)
@ capebreton
Eldorado ( 14:46 ) I'll second that!!....Puetz: Ya can run but ya can't HIDE
.....come out and take yer medicine like a "real man"....just kiddin Steve cause I still like you anyway!!....go Boilermakers!...and Giants.......

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:12)
@John Disney and stock options
John Disney: I am not so sure about utility of company stock options under current market condition.
1 - Due to irrational market behavior there is no clear correlation between company performance and growth of stock value. This means that management could still be overcompensated for their real contribution to company performance.
2 - there are many management decisions which can boost the stock value in a short run but undermine a company "health" in a long run

I agree that management income should be tied to company performance but it has to be more that just stock options.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:24)
Ted: You better stop lamenting about your ISP. Thats just God trying to compensate for other fine things you enjoy ;- )
I would trade my good internet access for your everyday sea kayaking any time. Please let me make some money so I can retire to days full of sailing, kayaking, and  OK OK wake up it wont happen :- (

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:26)
WW-Re: Noam Chomsky. I would be careful in accepting all of N Chomsky's ideas. I think his points about the negative effects of "rule" by large corporations or government are well taken. In other times he problably would have said the same about big labor. I think the most important principle is that everyone should be free to advance their own economic/cultural development without exceessive control by government, big businesses or big labor. Whenever power is concentrated in the hands of a few, corruption and excessive control of others is inevitable.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:39)
OldMan: How about Hillary for VP -- just kidding! Seriously, I would like very much to know about your thoughts on the LBMA. Could some of the world currencies already be loosely based on gold? Could the current bear market in gold ( priced in dollars ) be due to the derivative trading at the LBMA getting out of control, rather that deflation? Gold has been rising in several non-US currencies for some time. Thanks

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:39)
@the scene
Neither direction in the stock markets has been proven yet with this 'interval' we've had over the past couple trading days. They are at a 'cusp' though. If they continue up, they will do so fairly strongly, IMHO. Gold will more than likely continue to languish with little 'rallies' along the way if that be the case. But my bootom line on that is simply support/resistance and how they are 'treated'. It may be that the stox will continue up, if that be the case, until an 'event' happens. Beyond that remark, it is hard to speculate. First, they have to prove that they will! Secondly, if given some amount of fall, they may go on up to make some new spectacular highs, for whatever 'reason' they might do that. All this makes for a daytraders paradise!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 15:41)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious metals Charts
5 Years, 120 day, 30 day and hourly charts at:
Click on Gold Sectors

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:01)
Old Dudes and Dames

Why is it that when people get old, they turn to goofy, touchy feely concepts like religion, astrology, psychic phenomena and other garbage to try and understand the world? One important triumph of science was the banishment of "circular" thinkers ( as opposed to linear thinkers: the quickest way to get from point A to B! ) to the sidelines, where they belong. JTFlick, you lament that astrology and astronomy used to be equally respected in the days of yore. But the days of yore were also full of superstitious beliefs and adherence to religious dogma. Thorughout history powerful people used religion and superstition to control the minds of people, specifically the would-be scientists who would undermine the world of the elite.

Anybody who tells me that my personality is decided more by my zodiac sign than the product of my genes and my environment is not worth listening to. Anybody who tells me that my fate is noted in the stars is not worth listening to. Anybody who tells me that the fate of a company lies with its horoscope instead of an analysis of its fundamentals and the character of the market is not worth listening to.

So, let reason and logic rule the day ( and rule Kitco! ) . The prophesy market declines based on celestical events only serves to scare away potential bright people with important info to convey. This cuts short the potential growth of this space.

BTW, I am 24 and a scientist-to-be

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:03)
in sacramento
Savage: No genius, I. It's just me, my computer, and SAS. Re your questions: dunno. I don't know how much stock is out there, nor how much it's selling for per share. Nor do I know what _exactly_ would happen to the price as you tried to buy it all up. And how much gold is above ground, anyhoo? One thing's certain: if you owned all the above ground gold in the world, that'd be the mother of all cornered markets! And Uncle Sam would do what he does best: confiscate it all and throw you in the slammer. :- )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:03)
Allen: You are right about 1/3 odds for Lunar eclipses and market turning points. The predictive value is not great in advance. However, I believe several financial astrologers have been successful by waiting until just after the turning point, and then investing, since the new trend may persist for months or more. I have not done a statistical analysis of false alarms. Knowing when to have your finger at the trigger is, I think, worthwhile.
Incidentally, there is a more complex Astrological indicator called the Bradley siderograph, which can closely follow the dow jones for months, and then spontaneously invert, with most of the currect turning points still there -- just upside down. To someone trained in the hard sciences such as myself, the fact that there is any correlation at all is mind boggling!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:09)
Freedom @ Whom God hath made angry
*******Property Democracy********

Articles of Confederation adopted by Continental Congress at York Pennsylvania November 15 1777.
* "Denies Congress any power to tax or to regulate trade"
* "Congress submits the Articles to the 13 States for ratification, makes
the first of several requisitions of funds, to be paid by the States in
paper money"
* "And authorizes confiscation of Loyalists Estates"

Philadelphia - Constitution for the new United States of America. ( 1787 )
* " Balance of power between Federal and State Governments"
( Borrowed the idea of Federalism pioneered by the Iroquois Confederation )

1913 -- The Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution proclaimed in force
February 25 by Secretary of State Philander C, Knox empowers Congress to
levy graduated income taxes on incomes above $3,000 per year. The very
rich will find loopholes for avoiding taxes.

1913-- A sensational report published February 28 by the House Committee
on Banking and Currency exposes the "Money Trusts" that control U.S.
Financial power. U.S. Congressman from Louisiana Arsene P. Pujo heads
the Committee. Financier J.P. Morgan 75 is called as a witness. J.P.
Morgan dies March 31, leaving a vast estate.

Economic Interpretation of the Constitution by Columbia University
History Professor, Charles A. Beard, 39, points out that America's
Founding fathers were all men of property when they drafted the
Constitution in 1787. Beard suggests certain consequent in equities.

My take on the subject of freedom and control. Take care.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:11)
@the scene
JtFlick -- WE WILL be 'ruled' by big Nazi like government and big business for the 'interim'. However, you still have YOUR 'choices' to make in the interim. Those choices will define YOU; your beliefs, your ideals, YOU, and, vice versa! Make 'em so! YOU are what YOU DO for you cannot perform what you 'are not', and what you are not, you cannot perform! Be sure in what you base YOUR foundations! So many today do not have 'ideals', 'faith', or any real 'definition' of themselves. Know 'thyself'! 'Nuff said!
From the heart!

ted butler
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:24)
To John Disney:

I think we are talking about two different things. I think you're talking about the mechanics of what determines lease/forward rates. To this, I confess ignorance and disinterest. I'm interested in how metal loans have influenced the markets. Besides, if rates can go to 300% ( as they did a while back in palladium ) what difference does it make what the formula is? It's obvious you are putting a lot of thought into this, and my only suggestion is step back a bit and try to rationalize the economic justification of metal leasing from a common sense perspective ( like I sense you do in your gold stock analysis ) .

BTW, I've often thought of your tax approach, the only flaw being if you did raise a gazillion dollars, where would it go?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:25)
Organ: I am 51 and am pleased to know that there are still some people that are interested in Physics! You do not need to beleive anything I say about non-linear thinking -- but you shouldn't throw out fringe topics outright! You should review the current controversy about the possibility that the speed of light is not constant, and that Michelson may have been right about the Aether! Did you know that there is evidence that the radiation of the universe is anisotropic, and that the red shift of the galaxies is quantized, ( at I beleive 78 km/sec? ) . Also did you know that the orbital periods of the planets ( with the excetion of one -- Pluto, I think ) are also quantized if you express their periods with an exponential formula?
You should also read about the Sagnac effect, zero point energy and the Casimir effect. Even Edward Teller has written about an intrastellar drive based on the Casimir effect. You should also read about Bell's theorem, and read David Bohm's work. The past present and future being interconnected is a legitimate question being asked by mainstream theoretical physicists these days. Physicists are human and often guilty of preconceived ideas and missing phenomena because they cannot accept their existence! I believe that Irving Langmuir of debye shielding fame said something like that! If you are familiar with all of the above, and still disagree with me then I rest my case. You should also read about the MIT confirmation of "cold fusion".
PS -- Could the fine structure constant be quantized?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:28)
@The Highly Compensated, +RJ
Before we get too envious or condemning about the highly paid among us, let's remember one thing, the mostly highly compensated 1% of the population last year, paid in excess of 30% of the tax revenue received by the federal govt. We should be thanking them for getting rich, not berating them!

RJ, re your 9/18 post of the usual inflammatory, hateful, insulting, ignorant, vitriol, I know you may expect a long defensive response. However, my response to you is only to say that your attitude and tone demonsrate my points about your character and personality more clearly than anything I could ever say. You post is not worthy of a reply, nor were your previous ones, and I regret the error of having done so in the past. My future responses to anything you say will be this...nothing. You are henceforth "squelched" and no longer show up on my radar.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:29)
Ron: Where do you get your data for analysis with SAS?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:34)
Eldorado: Thanks -- I needed that! We all need to believe that good will eventually come out of all the bad news we see around us these days. I wouldn't be interested in investing in gold if I was confident in our leaders, and believed what I read in the media! We all need to hope that we can positively affect our collective future in some way. Thanks again

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:37)
Just got in from my heavy bench press workout and noticed Comments about Chomsky. READ Chomsky article very relevant to Kitco Govt/conspiracy discussions. I challenge SPEED/Eldorado /Disney/EB/Oldman and others to read this article and criticize and discuss with interface as to mkt ramifications. I'll do my best with the address

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:40)
Re last post click on Chomsky's talk in South Africa to read suggested article.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:43)
OK, time to lock n' load...
EARL: 14:07 - Mother Theresa is the LAST icon a "liberal" ( leftist ) would turn to. Mother Teresa voluntarily joined a private organization and dedicated her very life to helping people in misery and need. She put her whole being where her heart was. This is an horrific thought to a liberal, because it means that if there were no one else to hold up for money, or enslave and push around, they would have to either do it themselves ( help the poor, etc ) , or slink off lazily into the bushes. And even worse, if liberals got together and VOLUNTARILY created their OWN private instututions to help the poor ( putting their money and labors where their mouth is, just like Mother Theresa ) then you would see how FAST they created VERY strict standards required from those they were helping. Fraud, and fakery, indulgence and indiscipline, societal disrespect and decadence would NOT be tolerated, believe me.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:45)
@Organ and old age
Organ, your question "Why is it that when people get old, they turn to goofy, touchy feely concepts like religion, astrology, psychic phenomena and other garbage to try and understand the world?" can be probably answered as "because years of experiences taught them that there is too much around us we do not understand and all advances in modern science are falling short in explaining it"

It goes like this: when you are young you think you know everything. When you grow up you find out that you know ( never mind understand ) very little despite the fact that you became much smarter than you were in your younger years.

BTW, I am 52 years young scientist

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:45)
@the scene
Organ -- I suppose everyone likes to know 'why' they are. Everyone likes to find 'meaning' in their short life. Must be that 'soul' factor that distinguishes us from animals and other life forms. A fact of nature that occurs past the age of 16-18 sometimes. Sometimes not 'til 40. Sometimes never. You don't have any of that inquisitiveness and wonderment or faith? I marvel at the marvelousNess of that scenario! 'Sorry' if I cannot contemplate being so empty, or otherwise being so damn full of materialism that all else is buried! Let me simply say 'SWELL'! Go ahead and continue to count your 'marbles'. Maybe 'someone' will be 'kind enough' to bury them with you! Nothing against 'marbles, for they have their purpose, but only where YOU place your real thoughts and priorities, 'tinman'! Hey, if I have this all wrong, pardon me. But I am posting against a posting and I DO know the inherent limitations of such. If that be the case, I apologize in advance, but the posting still stands for those it may 'pertain' to! Best regards to all!

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:47)
Thinking with the wrong Organ
ORGAN: I will take you gratuitous disrespect for things you obviously know absolutely nothing about to be a symptom of your tender years. Yes, my lad, you WILL be a "scientist" when you grow up, at the rate you're going. And I would also add that anyone who talks like YOU do at 24 isn't worth listening to. Talk to me about these things in 25 years kid.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:47)
It should be disturbing

that WW and I actually agree on something. READ, key word is
READ Chomsky for yourself. I can't help but wonder how many
of the negative responses here are based on SOURCE material,
and not "media interpretation".

(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:47)
in sacramento
IDT: I bought Prophet's Worldwide Markets CD ROM: . Don't know if they are the best, or most accurate. But folks in misc.invest.futures generally have pretty good things to say about them.

WW: I just finished working out myself. What kind of bench press routine are you doing?

bb fisher
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:48)
why do you bother with this left/right debate? the usa is a one party state for many decades now. this one party has 2 heads conservative and reactionary. end of story.

the computer revolution is shattering their power. hence the need for encryption controls. clearly a desperate move by a state LOSING its grip. we now have thanks to intel fantastic processor speed. what we lack is large bandwidth to pump information or whatever else you want into your system at light speed. with bandwidth will come the end of the tv/media monopoly. everything going forward will be computer driven becasue that is where the future and the profit lies. the smart cable and computer companies already know it. since the usa regualtors are making it harder to do this in america where they want compettion without winners the usa leaders in industry are doing it abroad. i know i live in europe and the usa telecom giants are doing over here what the regulators won't let do in the usa. without great profit there is no great incentive as the congress will discover to their chagrin a few years out.

walk away, literally or via modem. the dinosaur is dying before your eyes yet most are still caught up in the spin which no longer has any substance and ever diminishing bite.

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:51)
Questionable ORGANization

Ah, give the kid a break. : ) He'll reach the age of confusion
soon enough. : )

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:52)
Flickering Flame
JTFLICK: -14:45 Been there, done that. Now let "science" catch up. ( :- ) ) You are very prescient in looking forward to the coming synthesis of science and classical metaphysics. The last person to successfully blend the two benefitted the physical sciences immensely. Einstein was a true occultist and student of metaphysics, Theosophy, and many related recondite subjects. The insights he gained from the great minds of the past ( still very much misunderstood by "scientist" wanna be's ) allowed him to make theoretical breakthroughs of major consequence. I also like the way you think.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:52)
To All
Someone mentioned Vronsky. He's an exception. I would limit him -
but to about 100 million - negotiable.- Lawyers - rap singers - Streisand
however - watch out ( if I ever take supreme power - ) . I'm the other
side of the ww coin ( when Im in altruistic mode )

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 16:54)
Continuing debate

The debate about left/right continues because some people still
don't know the "truth" as prescribed by BB Fischer. : ) BTW,
be aware that the computer revolution precedes slower than many
would predict. : ) Drip. Drip. Drip.... Now for the last time,
I'm going to restart _Total Recall_ for the FOURTH time and quit

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:04)
Pass the prune juice...
So it would appear that Kitco is, in actuality, a virtual old-folks home. It's cyber inhabitants scuttling slowly across lestoiled linoleum squared floors, misty sunlight radiating through tattered green canvas blinds. But they do not care, they are absorbed in their laptop screens, sending postings to their fellows down the hall, and wheezing gently in the neighboring bed. Ve are too soon oldt, undt too late schmart!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:06)
@the scene
BB fisher -- As much as I really hate to say it, I still have to say B__LS__T! Maybe someday, but it sure as hell ain't here yet! Nor, is it going to be for a nice 'while'! Not until the Nazi style jack-boot has had their way for a 'bit'. That's my take on the situation and you are most welcome to 'discuss' it, here or elsewheres. With best regards....

John Disney
(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:15)
For Ted Butler
I must not be making myself clear - I dont care that
much about what make lease rates and forward rates go
up or down. However, I suspect that the SUM of lease and
forward rates compared to prime rate MAY be a lead indicator
of gold price direction.
In 1993 at the start of the last gold bull, the Sum
was above prime rate, lately and even now it is below.
The possible reason for the effect on the gold price could
be that when the above SUM is below prime, gold could become
a favored FINANCING medium - If so, up front gold sales could
be massive compared with shorting or CB sales.
In the case of platinum, for example the "SUM" is
well above prime and would be a uneconomic finacing
medium. Not so gold and siver - but the silver is too
small a market to consider for financing.
This could perhaps explain the extraordinary volume
of gold traded in London.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:16)
Organ...we meet again...and now I understand...
You are a twenty-four year old scientist...that explains much. Send me a permanent address and I will send you, hardcopy, your 'can-o-worms' speech in 10yrs or better yet 20yrs when you are 'old & goofy' and 'touchy-feely'. Re-read JTFlick 16:25 . I think he has something there. I won't belabor this because the reponses you received summed it up for me too. Study hard, bro. We need the bold, young thinkers and doers like yourself and don't worry, Wisdom comes with age...

Hey! Shouldn't you be out Baggin' the Betties?? ;-0 gain wisdom...AND money...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:17)
What's YOUR take on this YEN thing?


(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:26)
Forex Trading @ Immoral = Currency Traders rich, very, very, rich.
September 20, 1997
Forex rates should reflect fundamentals-G7 draft

HONG KONG, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) -- Finance ministers of the Group of Seven top industrial nations agreed exchange rates should reflect economic fundamentals, according to a draft of their final statement obtained by Reuters on Saturday.

The G7 also said countries growing fast should be wary of inflation and that structural change was needed in some states to curb unemployment. The statement added the G7 expected low inflation and solid but sustainable growth for its members.

September 20, 1997
Malaysia PM says forex trading immoral,should end

HONG KONG, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) - Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, smarting from the impact on his economy from Asia's recent financial turmoil, said on Satuday that currency trading was immoral and should be stopped.

Mahathir has made no secret of his contempt for fund managers who he blames for deliberately wreaking havoc in the region and triggering a plunge in the Malaysian ringgit and what he called the "rape of our share market."

"Currency traders have become rich -- very, very rich -- through making other people poor. They are billionaires who really do not need any more money," he said in a speech on the fringes of the annual meetings of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.
"Society must be must be protected from unscrupulous profiteers," he said. "Currency trading is unnecessary, unproductive and totally immoral. It should be stopped. It should be made illegal. We don't need currency trading.

"We need to buy money only when we want to finance real trade, otherwise we should not buy or sell currencies," he told a packed hall, noting that currency trading was some 20 times the actual volume of trade in goods and services.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:30)
Clinton (campaign funds)
Justice Opens Clinton Campaign Finance Probe

SAN CARLOS, Calif. ( Reuter ) - The Justice Department has informed President Clinton that he is under investigation to
determine whether an independent prosecutor should be appointed to probe alleged campaign financing abuses, the White
House said Saturday.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:47)
...more meat in this article.......
Former White House chief of staff Harold Ickes told
Senate investigators last June that Clinton made several
fund-raising calls at his request. Ickes said he asked Clinton
to make such calls on two to four occasions, and he
subsequently learned the president had made several calls.
A special prosecutor already is investigating Clinton
and his wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton, in the Whitewater
affair, a catchall term covering actions that began as a result
of the Clintons investment in an Arkansas land
development in the 1970s.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 17:51)
@the scene
BB Fisher -- One more! The 'dinosaur' is NOT growing smaller! It is not yet going 'extinct'! Where do you get this 'philosophy'? It just is NOT happening! In fact, it WILL NOT happen until it can NO LONGER exist! That time is not yet here. That does remain an event that we, who are freedom loving, are definitely looking for. Now, as for rights, YOU have to determine, for youself, whence they derive! Then YOU have to determine yor own stance/ideals/beliefs in regards to those most perfect things.

George Cole
(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:05)
OLDMAN: I too have argued several times that the prospect of Congress giving Billy fast track authority for legislation making it still easier for the multinationals to invest abroad would be bullish for stocks and bearish for gold. Still not sure the big caps will make new highs, but that is a real possibility. The new wave of corporate downsizing at firms like Whirlpool and International Paper will further embolden the bulls. And gold will continue to move inversely to the Dow. But I do think this is the final move up for stocks and the last move down for gold.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:05)
making the Yen a key currency
Japan backs proposed Asian currency
fund: Mitsuzuka
BANGKOK ( Nikkei ) - Japanese Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka
said Friday that Japan will help set up an Asian Fund at the request of
other Asian governments, and may contribute financially to it. Thailand
and other countries hit by currency crises proposed creating the
multinational fund to stabilize Asian currencies and financial markets.

The Japanese government's willingness to cooperate is expected to
boost the chances of the fund being set up. Mitsuzuka said Japan will
cooperate to make the yen a key currency.

The fund will be used to intervene to stabilize selected Asian currencies
and would cover the temporary foreign currency shortages of monetary

In Thailand for the Asia-Europe Meeting ( ASEM ) of finance ministers,
Mitsuzuka said he recognizes the need to cooperate on a regional basis.

He added Japan already contributes to Asian economic stability through
international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund, and
would cooperate with the Asian Fund if it is established on the same

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:07)
I am declaring myself a liberaterian as I am in favor of taxpayers getting refunds for taxes and revenues which go to benefit for-profit entities at taxpayer expense as well as tax breaks for the for-profit enterprises which mean I can not get a tax break or relief from the marriage penalty. I am against govt policies which unnaturally inhibit workers from seeking and obtaining the highest pay because of govt interference against labor unions to tilt the balance in favor of free loading big business types. I am against treatries which allow US business to move into third world economies and take jobs from Americans when this is facilitated in any by the govt which is my tax money. Let them go if they want BUT NO GOVT GUARANTEES OR BAILOUTS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Let them take advantage of the cheap labor at their OWN RISK and NOT THE TAXPAYER'S! Lets tax big business more for the infrastructure which they overuse and the average citizen does not such as airports. I AM FOR individual freedom how about you?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:17)
@New Downsizings
Let em eat cake

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:22)


The the US post office outlawed fax machines in 1981.

The post office did this for two reasons:

1 ) Faxes do replace 1 st class mail

2 ) The transmissions had do be converted into "something" that they
didn't know how to intercept.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:28)
More trouble for the US gov
In June, the federal government reported that 270 of its thousands of computer systems had been fixed to deal with the year 2000 problem.
This week, the feds said, 107 have been fixed.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:33)
The Lawyers with Law Suits against the big boys re an array of issues is the only protection afforded the public. God Bless The Legal profession for protecting peoples interests against the overeaching aggressive greed of some big corps.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:34)
Y2K is no big deal?
On September 19, Steve Heller attended a y2k meeting in Dallas.
Speaking was a y2k test manager for the holding company of regional electrical utilities. Heller says he had this exchange after the meeting. It related to embedded chips: the coded microprocessors built into the systems.
Q: What are you doing about your embedded systems exposure?
A: We have just begun the assessment phase for our embedded
systems exposure. Every piece of equipment that has a microprocessor in it will have to be tested and possibly fixed. We don't know how big a task this will be yet, because we haven't finished the assessment phase.
Q: But why didn't you start the embedded systems work first? What good will it do you if you get every business system fixed but you can't generate or distribute power?
*****A: We can't figure that out either.*****

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:39)
U.S. brokerages face problems over decimal pricing
The Financial Post
Thu, Sep 18 1997
Brokerages will have trouble meeting the U.S. Securities & Exchange
Commission's deadline for starting decimal pricing because of difficulties in testing decimals and year 2000 changes at the same time, two U.S. stock markets told the commission yesterday.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:39)
MIKE SHELLER, JTFLICK: Let me recommend a book called "The Cosmic Blueprint" by Paul Davies. Davies argues that all matter and energy have the ability to self-organize according to common holistic principles. Examinining these principles, he suggests that the universe develops toward progressively higher levels of complex self-organization; from the pattern of a snowflake to the structure of organisms to the cosmic blueprint governing the entire structure of the universe ( from the jacket ) A great book. So during this semi-intellectual Kitco weekend I can see that there has been some higher level development going on.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:43)
South Africa to Stall U.K. Push for IMF to Sell Gold Reserves

South African Finance Minister Trevor Manuel said he'll try to stall a push by the U.K. to get the
International Monetary Fund to sell some of its gold reserves. ``It's in our interest'' to slow the pace
of any IMF plan to sell gold, Manuel said, after a Commonwealth Finance Ministers press briefing
at the IMF/World Bank meeting. The U.K. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, is trying
to kick-start an initiative launched two years ago by his predecessor, Kenneth Clarke, calling on
the IMF to sell some of its 102 million ounces of gold reserves to help pay the debts of developing

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:43)
Securities industry concerned with 2000

"It's a very big issue," said John Panchery, the SIA's vice president for systems and technology and a member of the Year 2000 committee.
"It's probably the biggest technological issue we've ever faced as a world. And the plan is, let's be a little conservative and have an extra day in there in case you have any problems."

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:44)
Come off it already
WW: I think I have a sense of humor, but your sudden "libertarian" conversion is bordering on philosophical sacrilege. You just don't get it, do you? Libertarianism ( so-called ) is NOT ABOUT tax breaks. Or minor points of legislation that change like the ripples on every incoming wave at the seashore. You insult the intelligence and the integrity of everyone on this forum who has taken you seriously enough to debate your amorphous and sanctimonious sentimentality passing for human compassion. You only deserve to be berated when you talk like this. If you are serious, then you are truly a bankrupt intellectual puppet. In which case my reprimand will set you right and save you from complete mental instability. If you are being facetious, you deserve an even more outraged continued lashing, which I am sure others here will be happy to provide.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:47)
UK report says London's infrastructure is at risk of collapse in 2000.

The study, by UK consultancy Corporation 2000, predicts key services such as transport, power supplies, telecommunications and banking will break down through a combination of technology failures and logistics and business pressures. For example, it forecasts that no flights will depart from Heathrow or Gatwick from mid December 1999 until the end of January 2000, largely because of the withdrawal of insurance cover.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:48)
Malaysia's Mahathir Says Currency Trading Should be Stopped

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, stepping up his attack on the international financial
system, called for currency trading to be outlawed. His comments are the latest attack by the
71-year-old leader on ``rogue'' currency traders and hedge funds, which he blames for the slump in
the Malaysian stock market and the currency, the ringgit. The benchmark Kuala Lumpur
Composite Index has lost 47 percent this year amid a decline in the currency and worries about
Malaysia's widening current account deficit.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:51)
Year 2000: Countdown To Federal Meltdown
09/16/97; 4:00 p.m. EDT By David Braun, TechWeb

(Sat Sep 20 1997 18:53)
South African interests eyeing Australian gold mines.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 19:06)

Monetary Policy Without Reserve Requirements:
Case Studies and Options for the United States
By Gordon H. Sellon, Jr. and Stuart E. Weiner
District of Kansas City


Over the past decade, the level of required reserve balances held
by depository institutions in the United States has declined
dramatically. The decline in reserve balances has fueled a debate
over the role of reserve requirements. On the one hand,
proponents of reserve requirements argue that low reserve
balances may complicate monetary policy operations and
increase short-term interest rate volatility. On the other hand,
critics of reserve requirements argue that lower reserve
requirements remove a distortionary tax on depository institutions
and need not complicate monetary policy operations.

In a previous article, Sellon and Weiner provided an analytical
framework for thinking about these issues. That article suggested
that monetary policy can be conducted in a world of low or zero
reserve requirements as long as there continues to be a demand
for central bank balances.

In this article, the authors examine how three countries Canada,
the United Kingdom, and New Zealand conduct monetary policy
without using reserve requirements. The experience of these
three countries provides insight into the linkages between the
payments system and monetary policy and into the connection
between reserve requirements and interest rate volatility. This
insight is particularly helpful in understanding the implications of a
further reduction of reserve balances in the United States.

For the complete article.

Please visit the District of Kansas City for other articles.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 19:10)
Look Sheller my comments are not just about human compassion but about who is really screwing both you and me. I can see the media's obvious pro business approach has unfortuantely affected your thought process. The media bias is unbelieviable and has its unfortunate expense.

Out to run two miles Bye/ cant take the mental blocks!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 19:16)
Internet from space ... woooo
Ted - Have you investigated this alternative to your local ISP? I stumbled on this, but don't know anything about it, other than what you see here. Let us know if it realy is a viable alternative.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 19:51)
DJ: My understanding is that Hughes DirectPC is for the incoming or download leg, but that an ISP via telephone is still required for outgoing or uploading. Also one is charged by the amount of incoming traffic,and it is rather pricey.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 19:51)
WW--It is clear that you are not aware of the basic tenents of the Libertarian Party or you are just looking to poke someone's puppy tonight. I'm inclined to lean toward the latter, but if it is the former then see if you can get a hold of the brief booklet "Libertarianism in One Lesson" for your edification.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 20:05)
Saturday afternoon Baseball and Kitco and Anchor Steam...Sigh...
WW - I have read two posts of yours that reference my name. I have NOT debated you AT ALL today and I do NOT want to be dragged into this no-win, aggravating discussion. Please...leave me out.
I will, however, concur with MikeS posts regarding you. I could never have said it better. find the channel-changer...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 20:23)
@ Can of Worms
Thanks for the comments, everyone. JTFlick, I am most interested in physics, although clearly my training is less than adequate to understand many difficult areas such as quantum mechanics. I am a brain modeller, designing simulations of brain neurophysiology which attempt to model the behavioral outcomes of neural ensembles. On the topic of the new physics, I have read that the constancy of c was challenged by a couple of scientists, but I have not found any evidence of this in the more reputable journals. Of course, since most of the editors of these top journals require c to be constant, because their papers were based in some way on special rel., it cannot be concluded that these challenges are bunk. I am staying tuned for any news on this front.

Donald: I have not read the book that you mentioned but I have seen those kinds of arguments made before. A bunch of top physicists, economists, computer scientists and neuroscientists at the Santa Fe Institute are modelling several different systems by using non-linear dyanamical systems. Typically, in these systems, there are a bunch of cells or units or agents that all have some initial conditions, plus a set of relationships which link up all of the agents. The result is a really complex system, and sometimes it vaguely "looks like" the natural system under study. So, some people have made the bold step of ssaying that since all processes in life are controlled by the same basic principles ( UNFOUNDED! ) then we can look at any process, say, the stars, to study any other process, e.g. the DOW30. Although I am very intrigued with complexity theory, indeed, its awesome potential power attracted me study science for a living, I think that much of it is hype and at this point has little predictive ability.

I have to apologize to anyone here whom I may have offended. That was not my intent. I know that "linear thinking" can be very destructive and anti-progress. Two great thinkers that were mentioned on this site today, Chomsky and Einstein, were both scientists who broke the mold of the dogma of their times -- Chomsky in psychology ( demolished behaviorism ) and Einstein in physics. At the same time, Occam's Razor should be used judiciously. Why look to stars when the answer is here on Earth?

Maybe I just really don't like horoscopes.

- Organ

(Sat Sep 20 1997 20:44)
GRAND LBMA EXPOS: A Collective-Mind Analysis - Compiled by Red Baron --PART 3 (September 22, 1997)
London Bullion Marketing Association ( LBMA ) is best described as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Daily gold trading nearly 50% yearly production. Who & Why?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 20:53)
*** MaxMTU ***

I've gotten loads of great information and "thinking material" from the Kitco forum for the few months I've been reading here. Since I can't predict the future and make anyone $$ in PM, I've found another way to pay y'all back and say "thanks Kitco-ites."

Those of you who are using Win95 ( Including Service Paks I & II ) will find your Internet download speed literally DOUBLED+ with this simple registry mod. You will not believe how fast web pages ( like this forum ) "pop up" now!

For the technically inclined, a good explanation for the abysmal performance of the Win95 Dialer can be found at :

Attached is an original html page describing the quick-n-dirty modification.

Enjoy, Niner

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:03)
Y2K Hoax
Shek : Y2K is an overblown prediction of gloom for an essentially non-existent problem. Ask the IRS to provide information regarding a taxable situation that ( i.e. ) extends into the year 2010. They can immediately provide you with the numbers. Ask your banker for a printout on your 25 year mortgage and compare their numbers to your own post-Y2K calculations. If you ask your banker how he can do this, he'll tell you that they've been dealing with 30 year mortgages extending past Y2K for years, and they solved any problems years ago. Go to any data/charting/investment publisher on the Internet. Look at a table/chart extending past Y2K and see it properly formatted and represented ( albeit mostly blank ) .

Etc, etc.

While none of us are able to predict how severely ( and where ) Y2K problems will manifest themselves, I sincerely doubt we'll see airliners come crashing from the skies as the ground and air computers puke at the birth of the new millenia. In fact, I'd bet that my cable and electric bills arrive right on schedule!

Best Regards, Niner

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:09)
This is great -- I only been at this for 24 hours!
Organ - No, I'm not offended by anything you have said. What I consider important is that discussions such as this are free, and other opinions different from our own are considered. You are right that the question regarding the speed of light being constant is highly controversial. For the benefit of all there are many physicists that will not consider this because it "violates" Einsteins relativity. However, Einstein himself would have at least been willing to look at the data.
I think one of the biggest problems we have to face these days is "disinformation". We all need to go back to first principles, or the actual original material as Whocares says, instead of blindly believing what others say of the "experts" in this world. Also we do not need to believe all of what any one expert says, because each of us has only part of the truth, and some of what each of us say or think is distorted by our own idiosyncracies.
Here's to free speech, freedom, the search for truth, and tolerance of others!

Who Cares
(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:28)
Holy Smoke - MaxMTU fix WORKS!

Great contribution, Niner. Netscape loads substantially faster

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:33)
Niner re your Y2K post, watch it there dude, the wrath of the Gloom & Doom religous will descend on you mightily from such Kitco "experts" as
" eal erk " ( Fill in the appropriate capitol letters precedding the words ) , and many others. Y2K problem ( and El Nino, and Govt. / CB conspiricies, and the worthlessness of the dollar etc etc. ) is a religion here at Kitco and you daren't be a heretic without risking the full wrath of the Kitco faithful.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:34)
Vronsky -- Your Web site has done it again. I think LBMA mystery expose part three has unraveled part of the mystery. We apparently now have an electronic gold currency, which can be infinitely divided, thus resolving some of difficulty of not having enough gold for everyone to use as currency. Some questions remain:
1 ) Who is using this currency, and when will this bcome public?
2 ) How can we make sure that noone corrupts and inflates this "E-gold"? The temptation will be there.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:35)
JTFlick: Earlier you used the term: Quantized. When you have a moment, I for, one would appreciate a definition. Thanks.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:36)
Occam's Razor @ I didn't Know that
Occam's Razor

Occam's Razor, named after the Franciscan William of Occam, is also referred to as the Principle of Parsimony. At it's core the Razor assumes that simpler explanations are inherently "better" than complicated ones. The scientific method of hypothesis generation and testing relies heavily on this powerful tool. Here are some other interpretations:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon,
the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic.

Don't make unnecessarily complicated assumptions.
Make things as simple as possible - but no simpler.
- Albert Einstein

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:38)
Organ 1601------ Is your scientific intellect to be still growing or is it locked up in your 24 year old organ? Many of us who are old do not belive in religious dogma, astrollogy, psychic phenomena, flying saucers, devils triangle, big foot, sea monsters, or the thinking of a 24 year old who believes he is a member of the first generation ( rather than the multi thousandth ) who ever had a coherrent thought.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:39)
EB You do not want to debate because of your guilt and you like others cant face the truth. I understand, I face similar disabilities when approaching some issues. If we are strong willed it is possible to overcome prejudice and phobias. I wish you the best brother.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:44)
@Niner on Y2K
Niner, sorry to disappoint you but all of your examples show misunderstanding of Y2K problem. IRS? Yes, they can give you info regarding post year 2000 taxable situation but at this time they would not be able to process and validate returns in 2000+ dealing with different tax situation and different date dependent exemptions.
Banks addressed mortgage processing some time ago, however, this is just a small part of bank operation. The following is an excerpt from Bank of Boston testimony for the US senate. They are far ahead of other banks. These are some of the problems they would face if they did not finish Y2K project:

we would not have been able to mature our customers' Certificates of Deposits in the year 2000 and beyond;

our Negotiable Collateral system would have lost expiration dates and review dates on collateral used to secure loans in the event of loan default;

the system processing a daily volume of $800 million of Controlled Disbursements for our corporate customers would be inoperable for ten days while the problem was corrected in January, 2000 resulting in massive overdrafts to the Bank.;

our Precious Metals business would have been inoperable for up to two weeks while systems changes were being made to correct erroneous date processing. And keep in mind that had these situations not been identified in advance, our ability to respond to all of them simultaneously in the Year 2000 may have been hampered by the availability of computer resources and the pressures brought on by the demands of our customer base.

Planes may not be falling off the sky, however, at this time at least two airlines announced that they will ground their airplanes for a few days due to no guarantee that the ground support on airports around the world will be functioning correctly

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:44)
Organ:."Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of
things not seen. Because of it the ancients were well attested. By faith
we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that
what is visible came into being through the invisible." Hebrews 11:1-4.
New American Bible

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:45)
Mike Sheller ( 16:43 ) : You beat me to the Mother Theresa counter. That's about what I would have said but in a frightfully more pompous and convoluted fashion. Of course. ..... : )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:46)
shek -- I thought something was up last week when I was getting some quotes in decimals from my broker.

niner -- I'm running NT 4.0. I've been playing with the registry for a while now. Folks, back that registry up! And DON'T MAKE ANY MISTAKES IN REGISTRY ENTRIES! You have no idea of the grief you can get in to! That being said, I'll have to poke around now!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:49)
Along with CHOMSKY look for Z-NET and other good people who work with Noam and share his progressive philosophy including Barbara Ehrenreich, Marc Albert and Howard Zinn. Start looking at reality and not the dreamy Wall St drivel.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:55)
Earl - I'd be glad to explain "Quantized"
I think the quickest way to see what this is, is an analogy with music. If you pluck the string of an instrument, only certain sound frequencies can come out of the instrument, determined by the wavelength of the soundwave. The lowest frequency can only be where the wavelength of this sound wave is twice the length of the string. Certain unique higher frequencies ( harmonics ) are allowed, but non lower than this fundamental frequency.
In contrast, a musical instrument that did not have "quantum" rules such as this would permit any frequency to be played. The Stradmaster knows much more about this than I do, and I'm sure he would agree that his violin would sound terrible if all sound frequencies were allowed.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 21:59)

Miro--That is some news about two airlines suspending operations for two days after 12-31-99. We will no doubt have further such announcements as the date approaches. Reminds me of the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still"

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:02)
FREE! New Gold Analyst Newsletter
Kitcoites! I'm posting this to make you aware of a fantastic FREE OFFER of my soon to be released inaugural issue of the "Gold Metaphyisics Investor Quarterly". In out premiere issue we will articles I have authored, AND we will also feature several articles by reknowned guest authors. Just a sample of what you'll find in this inaguraral & future issues;

* Gold's healing effects on cancerous cells. See how an American Eagle worn around the neck can ward off evil disease.

* Y2K, El Nino, and alien invasion, to push gold to 300% gains in 2 years and cause massive crash in the S & P.

* Dousing for gold, Why pay $320 an ounce for gold ( or $3,220 a year from now ) , when you can douse it for free using this new "witching" technique.

* May Y2K planetary alignment signals bull market in gold for the entire Millenium.

* Holy Shaman research reveals stock markets to reach absolute zero within 3 years.

* New charts revealing strong correlation between gold price movements, and psychic phenomena.

* Our Astrophysical research, plots the anticipated price of gold and the markets for the next 24 months. DOW to decline from 8000 down to 24 points, gold to soar to $20,000 per ounce once world population has new "enlightenment" and realizes all Govts. and central banks have "duped" them into believing in currency.

All this and more! We have guest commentaries by such renowned experst as doctors "Sheleutz" and "Pueller" in our first premiere issue. Don't miss it!

To subscribe, just send $899 to "" and we'll send our premiere issue free. Following that issue you may cancel anytime
( cancellations must be forwarded through our psychic receipts dept. via ethermail )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:06)
I understand your position, just as a person of a certain race cant help being that race you and those predisposed to similar thought processes cant help the way you all think. Its nature and no one can do anything about it except try to educate some back into seeing more than one side. This had to be done in Germany, Italy and Japan after the war/ With success I might add/ so there is hope. All The best to you !!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:07)
Eldo: "Everyone likes to find 'meaning' in their short life. Must be that
'soul' factor that distinguishes us from animals and other life forms."

With due respect for all those who hold deep religious principles; is there a meaning of/to life beyond the scope of what we were taught as children? By asking the question, I am also implying that, IMO, a lack of formal religious principles hardly precludes the possibility of a full and satisfying life, quite apart from an appreciation of religious faith.

Is it not possible that the meaning of life is as simple as the achievement of personal happiness? Happiness as a result of spending one's life in a satisfying and productive fashion. After all, it is only the producers of this world who contribute to advancement of mankind. ( not to be read with emphasis on material producers only ) Easily as noteworthy as those who would argue the merits of plan A or plan B of the Omnibus Welfare Act of 1997; or alternately those who would ponder the imponderable in terms of: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?".

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:08)
@Who Cares
Wow, you're quick! Didn't take you long to test out the MaxMTU fix!

The most noticeable change for most users who don't use a System Monitor of any sort is apparent in the "modem lights" in the Task Bar Tray ( or on the external modem ) . Instead of liesurely flickering between Xmit & Rcv, they light up and stay lit solidly - - My ISP ( and the Internet at large ) is a lot better than I used to think!

The buffer timeout also created a number of stange "lock-up" problems in 95 as well, another bonus fix.

Best of luck, Niner

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:18)
Big financial mkt risk in 2000 date change--NY Fed

NEW YORK, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) - New York Federal Reserve Bank President William McDonough said the Year 2000 software date change poses a major risk for world financial markets, and, if botched, could hurt the world economy.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:19)
BB Fisher: As usual, great post, great insight. BTW, last winter, you posted some lengthy comments in the same vein. They were posted before I knew how to do such incredibly difficult tasks as saving posts to the disc. If you still have them, I would appreciate a repost. ...... As I recall, they were not done completely in lower case. ...... : )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:22)
LGB : Any Y2K phenomena is a few years away, at worst, so it doesn't really impact today's trading. Now when someone demonstrates he ( or she ) can accurately predict tomorrow's ( literally ) Dow30 or Gold Spot Price, they will have my undivided attention!

Miro : I am unable to tell you what the impact of Y2K will ultimately be, but my guess would place it near the "noise" of the chaos that determines the fate of our being, including the markets. Y2K is yet another variable in the grand scheme of things, you and I don't disagree about its importance, only the coefficient in front of it. My feeling is it will be a small happening.

Great Trading to All, Niner

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:23)
Wait, let me turn off my radio and TV
WW: The media affecting my though processes?...?...! Now that was below the belt. I think me and my associates over the years have probably created more than a few ad and marketing campaigns that made you buy stuff you really didn't need. I bet you're still doing it. Or are YOU immune? My friend, when it comes to using media, you are talkjing now to the DEVIL. On the other hand, I DO appreciate how you uncover the uglies among us ( societally speaking, of course ) . You're good at that, I admit. But you politicitize your findings too readily, and demonize a lot of intelligent, compassionate folks who just see the answer to a better world in different terms than you. They still want a better world though. What happened to diversity? Look, some of my best friends are liberals ( honest ) . I grew up with artists and musicians. Some went to Canada when I went to 'Nam. I never faulted them. Each must do what each must do, and take responsibility. Do not fault me and do not judge my motives, and do not assume that I am any more media-warped than you, my friend. As for Marc Albert and Howard Zinn, I don't watch sports much, and he's in court over biting some broad, isn't he? And the other guy, well, I don't like his foul mouth on the radio.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:24)
for LGB
Big financial mkt risk in 2000 date change--NY Fed

NEW YORK, Sept 20 ( Reuter ) - New York Federal Reserve Bank President William McDonough said the Year 2000 software date change poses a major risk for world financial markets, and, if botched, could hurt the world economy. ``Getting the Year 2000 issue right is critical for every organization. Failure to get it right will affect the integrity of the payments system and the performance of the domestic, and maybe even the
global, economy,'' he said in a speech to be delivered before the annual membership meeting of the Institute of International Finance in Hong Kong. A copy of the speech was made available here. ``... ( T ) he century date change poses a very significant risk for financial markets.''
The New York Fed chief said that as recently as the early 1990s, banks and other financial institutions did not pay much attention to the Year 2000 issue. Using just two digits in computer programs to represent the year made sense for decades. However, when the new millennium arrives, operating systems of banks, corporations, brokerage houses and other institutions will read ``00'' in the year-date field, a pair of numbers the systems may only recognize as ``1900.''
To guard against Year-2000 problems, organizations are dedicating significant financial and human resources to ensure their programs and systems are millennium compliant. In fact, McDonough said consultants estimate that systems testing alone will absorb as much as 70
percent of Year 2000 project resources at some institutions.
Among other things, McDonough stressed that organizations cannot deny that any Year-2000 problem exists or that institutions can address the issue using only existing resources. Similarly, he cautioned firms not to leave the problem to outside suppliers or vendors. ``Bluntly stated, if your own management and staff, or your correspondents and customers, take any of the ( above ) positions, your organization may be at risk,'' he said. McDonough said the New York Fed and the general Fed system were working hard to ensure that their systems will be ready and fully tested.

The Fed is worried, the IIF is worried. LGB IS NOT WORRIED.
What does that tell us?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:25)
The Inger Letter Forecast - September 22, 1997
Due to lack of momentum recent market action is characterized as having a CANINE AROMA, leaving open possibility next couple weeks the market may try going to the dogs:

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:35)
Light...what is a cat?, never mind light.
JTFLICK, ORGAN: Gentlemen, when considering the speed of light, we must first define light itself. No easy task. Light is radiant matter. But as radiant matter it itself is invisible. What is seen as "light" is the denser layers, or stages of matter that are activated by the presence of radiant matter. Matter changes from its most primal stage of four essential stages to succeeding lower stages. Thus radiant matter expresses as airy matter, airy expresses, over time, as fluid matter, and fluid matter expresses as solid, or earthy matter. Inasmuch as these 4 stages repeat themselves over many cycles, in many invisible layers, as the underpinning of merely the PHYSICAL universe, then we must contend with light ( and its "speed" ) on multiple levels in multiple layers. Is the speed of light HERE the slowest of many speeds of light? Modern physicists are just now becoming aware of the substates of matter, and the substates of those substates. The interpenetration of spheres of matter is a first step to understanding something of the nature of what a physical world is, and how there are three other worlds that are non-physical, that underlie the thin crust of cosmos man erroneously thinks is the only "reality." When you can tell me what a "cat" is, we can go further into the origins of matter from pure space, which is NO THING.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:40)
Need for encryption driven home....Hackers Allegedly Intercepted White House Pager Traffic.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:43)
Interesting post. Based on what information do you make your statement that y2k will be no big deal. Can you refer me to any public document or speach by any government or corporate official, or better yet, programming expert who can assure me that nothing will be effected by the y2k.
Nobody on this site has ever said that planes will be falling from the sky.
My concern is what if only 5% of world financial transaction are incorrect due to y2k. Of trillions of dollars daily transacted between international markets! What will happen to investor confidence?
Re: banks
I have contacted my bank ( "You need this to open locks" Bank ) I was eventually refered to IS President who told me that they are working on the problem, and anticipate on having the problem under control. No guarantees, but they HOPE to be done in time. Draw your own conclusions.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:49)
SHEK: Glad to hear we're neighbors! Are you in the land o' the Irish or in "Appleseed" country ( I saw Johnny's gravesite today - it was covered with apples! ) ...........................................PEUTZ: I hope you rejoin us soon - you're one of the family!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:49)
Mark you are probably recoverable but I sense alot of sexism amd hence racism in your tone. You used the word "broad" for females which is equivalent to the"n" word for one of our prominent and progressive races. You are a quiet and progressive latent bigot. This is why affirmative action must continue. Not to say some of the same irrational anti-minority hysteria doesnt affect me at times. As a white male I am the most guilty as are others in my class.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:49)
WW: "God Bless The Legal profession for protecting peoples interests against the overeaching aggressive greed of some big corps."

Amendment to above: God Bless those in the legal profession who fight for the little guy, pro bono. God Bless them one and ....... er, ah, and I guess it's only one after all.

Really, it's a sorry situation when the legal profession creates the statutes that produces their sources of income. It has reached the point where the legal profession, so called, has planted and continues to fertilize a money tree in the halls of congress and you have the temerity to consider it a mark of social conscience on their part. For shame. How in the name of hell can they be considered distinct and apart from all the other hordes of money grubbers sucking at the public teat? Every lawsuit encountered, raises, the price of the products and services that each of us purchase everyday. We pay for it. ..... If the battle is between an indigent and anyone, we pay again in the form of higher taxes. Where in hell do you see any sense of equity in this form of legal insanity? There is only one winner really. The legal profession. Win lose or draw for the aggreived, they win.

As a member of the legal fraternity, I understand your overarching self interest in the matter and a compelling need to "talk your book" but please, have the good graces, to refrain from proseletyzing us further, as regards the high moral ground protected by today's legal system. It's bullshit double damned and you know it. Hell, we all know it.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:55)
I am glad to have this opportunity to pick you brain on the y2k issue.
I have been researching the y2k problem for 2 years. So far LGB, you and my friend Joe are the only people who tell me "No big deal". I need as much information from you on this issue as possible. If you could post it here I would greatly appreciate it.
So far from my research I found out that politicians, computer experts, investment firms, research firms are saying:
1. we must fix it or we are facing serious problems,
2. we hope to fix it
3. we have no choice but to fix it,
Hope, must, no alternatives are often used.
The IRS has admitted that they WILL NOT make. I posted the URL here 4 weeks ago. Please post more information.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:57)
WW @ 21:49
WW: Would you, could you, explain "PROGRESSIVE"
* Progressive Conservative
* Progressive Socialist

The only difference, from each base is what ?, faster - new improved -
new formula. Leap tall buildings, what ?

Conservative: ( preservative ) private capital owners of the production of
goods and services.

Socialist: Governmental ownership of the production of goods and services

Both are founded in a power base of, control of the sheep. Like sheep and
shepherds. The people know not the difference, regardless, which power
monger is in control. The issue is "control". Why is it necessary for
"control". Production and distribution of goods, right. The people must
produce products for the consumers. It is a Consumer's Market. Choose one
( a ) Old Artificial Control or ( b ) Modern Artificial Control.

Both, Conservative and Socialist want: The citizen/Worker to be "Oh Well"
Like: Be Quiet..Consume..And Die. No freedom, just control. All people need a Shepherd, right. The people have two choices eh! A conservative type, or A socialist type. Both dogma's are Shepherds.

Jay Gould Railroad Magnate in 1886: "I can hire half the working class to
kill the other half" Are the Conservative's killing, and the Socialists
being killed. Or is it best defined, by which is in power at the time.

Sooooo, explain "PROGRESSIVE" I don't get it! Maybe a Shepherd with dogs,
the other, with a staff in hand.
Thanks, Take Care.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:57)
I'm about 30 miles from you.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 22:58)
READ NOAM: We are in a fight against the corporate overeaching which is anti-democratic. The lawyers at the end of the day are the only protectors of working class rights. Look around you my friend the anti-lawyer propaganda exists exactly for the reason that the trial Lawyers are a pain to the elite. The crimes the economic elite commit are unspeakable and an economic/environmental Nuremburg type trial for the elite is a good future idea.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:07)
Mike Sheller ( Come off it already ) : Mike, ya done yer self proud. That post went into my newly formed, Best of Kitco file. But sadly, though salient in content, it was definitely lacking in certain of elements deemed necessary for proper pomposity. Prior to future submissions, please devote a moment's attention to the "Handbook of Proper Policy Provisions for Essential Pomposity." Standards, you know. ....... : )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:12)
PROGRESSIVE equals an agenda that is pro working person in every sense of the word.This means unwavering political/economic and emotional support for workers . An unequivocal support of workers in an enterprise vis a vis owners sense to obtain maximum advantage to the producers and do and support legal economic distress to the owner class so they are forced to submit to the producing class. OPPOSE all forms of race/national origin and sexual discrimination. Encourage and support LAWSUITS where the dominant class commits violations of the LAW!!
Keep alive CLASS thought. Recognize the divisions and act accordingly.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:12)
@ Y2K discussion
Hi Shek : BTW, I'm very pleased to meet you. In real life, my name is the same as my email address, which is

Oh no . . . , you don't get me to prove a negative . . .! You maintain that a major upheaval will take place in the year 2000, I question it and I ask for the proof. Every day 10,000 ( I counted ) postulates about future happenings are presented, and one person cannot simply keep up with and analyze them all. It's up to the "postulator" to rebut existing evidence to the contrary.

I was weaned on Univac 1600's in the late 60's, started my own computer business in 1979 ( which continues to present ) , and have no particular fears about Y2K. What I think together with $1US will still buy a cup of coffee, but everyone I have spoken to about Y2K feels "no problem." That may be a contrarian indicator in your favor, however.

Nice to meet you, Regards, Niner

P.S. All gentle readers are encouraged to memorize, then eat my real name and email address.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:16)
WW: It's late-night, and it's SATURDAY NIGHT -- LIVE, here at Kitco. I see the postings are frequent. I just finished reading the postings from Thursday, Friday, and today. I will respond in the next few hours.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:20)
@What is light
I find your comments most interesting. I don't fully understand the context of your comments, though I can contribute my own thoughts.
First, the speed of light is not constant within a diamond, for example. Organ may be able to give a more precise answer, but I beleive the speed is reduced by a factor of 1.6. Einstein was referring to "empty" space, and glossed over the minor problem that the universe is filled with matter. I'm confident he understood this problem, but went ahead with relativity anyway. Another point is the fascination we have with diamonds and crystals. Yet another is that one very hot topic in solid state physics is that large quantities of data can be stored in crystals, and the data can be retrieved reversed in time! I don't have a clue what this means, except that this is humbling.
In retrospect, I think your reference to "layers" may relate to what I would call matter and gravity rather than light. I am on rather shaky ground on this subject because I have little to base this premise on. It appears that there are two parallel phenomena that are concentrated around matter in the universe. One is the effect of matter on light. The other is the effect of matter on other matter. I think concentrations of matter in the universe act as a focus or anchor, around which are the layers of reality ( ? ) you speak of. These multiple layers of reality of course are poorly understood by temporal material beings such as us, since we are firmly anchored.
Also, one way to stop a physicist in his/her tracks is to ask him "what is time".
You probably understand some of this better than I, as my "awakening" is much more recent than yours. Hope this makes sense! PS, I appreciated your comments about Einstein.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:20)
Donald: I enjoyed yout 9-18-97 posting at 20:40 -- the bicycle ride, birds flying south in formation, and bright sun late in the day. It shows the "human" side of you -- a very positive side!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:22)
Silicon Valley Software Expert Says Both Government and Industry Procrastination Is Creating Major Y2K Problems and Expenses

Y2K Problem Is More Complex Than OMB and Corporate Planners Think,
More 'Surprises' Due for Shareholders and Taxpayers, Says President of
Windward Group

LOS GATOS, Calif.-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --Sept. 18, 1997--The president of a Silicon Valley software firm which helps major corporations ready their computer systems for the year 2000 ( Y2K ) , commented on reports from the White House Office of Management and Budget ( OMB ) that it will cost $3.8 billion to prepare government computer systems for 2000. He believes their cost will be ``double that.''
Doug Engfer, president of The Windward Group, a software design, development, quality assurance, and documentation consultancy here said: ``Problems with Y2K go far beyond computers thinking '00' means 1900 instead of the year 2000. Companies and the government need to get their arms around a problem that seems to grow without stopping.
*****``If shareholders of America's major corporations knew the state of the Y2K assessment in those companies, they'd be appalled,''***** said Engfer. ``At least the government is trying to understand the scope of what they face. This is not the last such surprise we will get from the OMB, and the final budget will likely be at least double current stimates. ``We can count on similar 'bombs' from industries we have trusted in the private sector, including banks, credit card companies and others,'' Engfer said. ``Even if they begin work immediately, most
organizations will not be able to complete their projects in time.''

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:23)
Sorry -- my post at 23:20 9/20/97 was directed to Mike Sheller, who had just made some interesting comments about light!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:24)
The Inger Letter Forecast - September 22, 1997
Due to lack of momentum recent market action is characterized as having a CANINE AROMA, leaving open possibility next couple weeks the market may try going to the dogs:

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:25)
@I knew it!!!!!!!!

So when the barbarians practice female genital mutilation, that's OK. They are, after all, a 'progressive' race. WARPED! I could go on, but the point has been made.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:26)
See some physics talk going around. Another good book-- The Fabric of
Reality by David Deutsch, the author laying foundations in the field of
quantum computing-- 'a qualitatively new way of harnessing nature'.
Subtitle-- The Science of Parallel Universes and Its Implications.
From the fly leaf ( Donald ) ..."I haven't been so inspired since I read
Donald Hofstader's Godel, Escher, Bach," says Paul Davies, author
of About Time: Einstein's Unfinished Revolution.

I read Mr. Deutsch's book through once quickly, passing through the
murky passages ( it's a difficult book ) to get to his point ( s ) . I'm about
halfway through a slow, careful rereading. If there's the observational
evidence and substance which this _scientist_ ( post-quantum physics )
claims in making his case, be prepared for something as counter-intuitive
to common sense as a round earth under one's feet moving through space.

I still got trouble envisioning a million of my own Dopplegangers...

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:29)
Mike Sheller: Are you making light of cats? Picking on lib'rals is one thing, but just watch it with those veiled cat jokes! Cat lovers are gonna be watchin' you real close from now on buddy. Or perhaps you were just being light hearted instead of catty.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:31)
Donald: You're also a barrell-of-laughs. I was rollin' in laughter after reading your Asian currency posting.

Which leads me to say this: Some think I'm in a SACK-OF-TOMATOES ( being a ROE-BEAR ) . But, have NO MERCY on me. A SAVAGE collapse in stocks will soon hit the stock market with the SPEED of a bullet. WHO CARES? Not me, because I just bought a 6PAK. A cold-FRONT just passed through Indiana, the SKY-LARK are heading south????? TED, don't BADGER me any more. I own PANDA's, and I respect the wisdom of CHEROCKEE.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:34)
Peutz -- I look forward to your comments. We all are attempting to predict the future, or we would not be on Kitco. I have certainly learned the hard way that attempts to understand Nature are fraught with surprises, and that persistence in these attempts may be necessary before success! Perhaps you picked the turning point for the rally in Gold Stocks!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:37)
Mark: Our resident Marxist obviously either didnt read the Boston Herald column I posted, or is incapable of understanding it. Here we are only one day later, and he's yelling "Bigot". Talk about irony, about 5 minutes before the post about our "progressive race", I was watching a tv documentary about a British woman who was in a country peopled entirely by that "progressive race", trying to teach the women to wash their hands after performing bodily functions, before handling the family's food. Its the same mentality that believes that if he could only get that .38 S&W out of my wife's purse, OJ Simpson would quit carving up white folks. Hopeless!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:38)
APH: I'm surprised LGB hasn't jumped on your mention of chart-gaps -- another idea that usually works, but with no good explanation of why.

By the way, APH, I believe you win the award for best market-call of the century. You picked the top on Thursday -- virtually to the minute!!!

I believe that was the start of a market crash -- 2 days after a lunar eclipse. Time will tell.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:39)
@Sorry to be so Prolific tonite . . .
Mike Sheller;

Hi Mike, very pleased to meet you. I must, however, take exception to your description of light, and the implications of same.

James Clerk Maxwell unified electric and magnetic fields into electromagnetic theory a few hundred years ago. He was almost 17 years of age when he finished, and invented several branches of mathematics including spherical calculus in the process. Einstein then tried ( unsuccessfully ) to integrate gravity into Maxwell's famous work. We've since come a bit further, by incorporation of the "weak force" into the "Unified Theory." We DO understand light rather well, especially in this century . . .

My point is that I have no idea what you are talking about! "Light is the denser Layers," "Four essential stages," "Light is Radiant Matter?"

What are you talking about, and where on earth did you learn this stuff? I hope your post was in jest and I simply misunderstood the tone - - You were just foolin' . . . ?

Regards, Niner

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:39)
Way off the Mark, WW
WW: My name is Mike, WW. Not Mark. Here we've been rubbing elbows and jousting at the same cocktail party for months now, almost a year, and you can't read my little shiny name tag. Public School education, huh? You REALLY made me laugh with that latent bigot sexist cr*p. You really should lose some of that sanctimony and live like the human beings you want to be great white father to. If I required of you the standards of spiritual perfection I set for myself, you'd be burning in Hell forever. Don't set my social, ethnic, and gender standards for me, unless you can match them. You would lose. If you could spend ONE DAY in my home you would slink out like the...never mind. I will not descend to your level of name calling. I would like to buy you a drink sometime, tho. But we can't discuss politics!

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:42)
IDT: Midwset -- prairie pothole country???? Been in New Orleans. I love those cajin' crayfish!!! ( Did I spell that right? )

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:43)
Puetz: Thanks for the sample of your letter. You are obviously a serious and deep thinker. But we disagree on some points. As posted last weekend, I believe 9/11 was a significant bottom in the stock indexes, which calls for new highs. I will buy any dip on globex tomorrow nite, or early in Monday's day session. I will also look to add on to my gold shorts. Takes two to make a market, dont it?

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:43)
space and speed
aurophile - re: Hughes DirectPC. Too bad. Thought this looked like a good solution for remote places.

Niner - re: faster access. I tried it. Doesn't seem to apply to those using AOL. The referenced subkey doesn't exist. However, I followed a similar path to the last key referenced in your posted document. It already had a subkey named MaxMTU and the value was 1500. I changed it to 576 to see if it would make a difference. Not sure that it did -- at least not real obvious.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:44)
to all
To all,
I believe that we are victims of a great put on by WW. There is no way he believes in what he posts!
WW, great job of having fun at our expense.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:45)
JTFlick, Front, and Panda: Thanks for your kind comments. They brought some tears to my eyes.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:47)
WW: You are an absolute riot Amigo. NO dammit! You leave me, and everyone else privy to your thoughts, completely breathless. Breathless in a most unflattering, indelicate and ungracious manner.

You are without doubt a rare individual. So much so that I almost hesitate to continue on the attack vis a vis your social opinions, only because I respect both your market related ideas and your right to express whatever social opinion pleases you.

I am at once awestruck that a seemingly educated man, by admission a lawyer, can remain so firmly in the grasp of ideas repeated endlessly as litle more than the disgorgement of rote memorization. At the same time, it is appalling that any person of substance could cling to such statements and, apparently, never, ever devote a moments consideration to their ultimate validity.

What I am attempting to say here is not that you give up your closely held beliefs ( and come over to the side of righteousness ... : ) ) but rather that it is time to carefully and rationally consider your entire philosophical position. It's an empty house. There ain't no one home but you.

The reality of your social commentary, is one of ardent study and again, rote memorization of someone's little "Red Book" without regard for the consequences of its application or effect on society. Blind faith is always an invitation for disaster. Unfortunately, you are not alone in your faith and even more unfortunate is, the disaster you would invite would not be confined exclusively to your house. If ever completely implemented,it would imperil us all.

In short, you are advocating a process of social tinkering without a clearly defined set of philosophical principles to guide you. The sum and substance of your comments invariably begin and end with one idea only: From he who has some to he who has little. All without regard to merit and all without regard to its effect on your fellow citizens.

It's not your position that is frightening, it is the apparent lack of concern for its ultimate effects. Your positions are nothing more than a another face of the expression of power. Our gang against your gang. How sad.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:51)
Senator Blutursky: You are consistently the funniest poster here at Kitco. ( You're a satire of the image of real-life senators. ) I'm beginning to believe you truely live in the State of Intoxication!!!! If I lose the bet, you might consider me as your favorite charity! If I win, I'll give you a free 1-year subscription to my newsletter -- after your payment, of course.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:54)

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:54)
There you go again resorting to name calling rather than reasoned argument. I will make no apology for supporting people who work for a living versus those who make money trading others money or clip coupons. No apologies I support the American working people sorry you hate the workers. Economic and racial justice and equality have to support the basis for "New America" after the coming plutocratic induced economic collapse. Further, what is important is encouraging international labor solidarity against capital. This is what will raise labor stds. The worse conditions get the closer we are to revolt against capital in 3rd world countries. This revolt will result in comparative advantage to US Labor when there is a genuine fear of capital loss in foreign places. Uncle Sam military shrinking so time of hegemonistic dominance is waning. In the end trade treaties will mean nada!!

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:54)
Twas a Niner
NINER: No Niner, I was not fooling around. Why do you think it is I who does not make sense, when it is YOU who does not understand what I'M talking about? Now tell me where electricity and magnetism come from, please.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:58)
Twas a Niner
NINER: No Niner, I was not fooling around. Why do you think it is I who does not make sense, when it is YOU who does not understand what I'M talking about? Does the limit of all that there is to be knoiwn and understood end at the tip of YOUR cerebrum? With a closed mind like that, it's little wonder you haven't been following me. Now tell me where electricity and magnetism come from, please.

(Sat Sep 20 1997 23:59)
Who Cares: I say Greenspan is MARKET-PLACE FODDER!! No one is bigger than the market. All attempts to corner any type of market have always failed. Those riding on the coat-tails of Greenspan, and the ill-advised belief that he can keep the stock-market from crashing -- they will be decimated by the marketplace. Reality and the marketplace always win.