Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Tue Sep 23 1997 00:03)
Great game!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 00:09)

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Monday September 22 11:41 PM EDT

Gold seen in narrow price band as platinum shines

PERTH, Sept 23 ( Reuter ) - Gold is expected to continue to trade in a narrow range as the market
settles into a period of consolidation, bullion dealers said on Tuesday.

Spot bullion in New York late Monday fetched US$321.00/US$321.50, 15 cents higher than the
London afternoon fix.

Dealers said a holiday in Japan and a refocus among investors on platinum had stymied much of the
activity in gold.

``We don't expect much to happen in gold today,'' one dealer said.

NYMEX October platinum gained US$7.20 on Monday to settle at US$437.40 an ounce, the
highest level since August 12.

Dealers said a traditional US$100-plus premium in the platinum price over gold was likely to remain
intact as long as concerns continued over Russia's ability to meet all its commitments.

An update on progress at the giant Hartley platinum mine in Zimbabwe by 67 percent owner The
Broken Hill Pty Co Ltd ( BHP.AX ) at the company's annual meeting of shareholders later on
Tuesday could also influence market trading, one dealer said.

Hartley aims to produce 150,000 ounces of platinum in its first stage, which is scheduled to be fully
operational by the end of next year.

The target date to reach full production has been delayed for 12 to 14 months due to the needM to
mine deeper than planned.

Another Australian mining company, Delta Gold NL ( DGD.AX ) , owns the remaining 33 percent in

More news for related categories and industries: mining, stock capsules, international.


Copyright  1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is
expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or
delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon
Important Disclaimers and Legal Information
Questions or Comments?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 00:10)
Goldsmith @ End of Work
Praise For The End of Work
The Decline of the Global Labor Force and the
Dawn of the Post-Market Era

"Rifkin's newest book is dynamite.....The End of Work is absolutely superb, thoroughly researched, soberly written--one of the great social critiques of the Newt Gingrich era."
--San Francisco Examiner

"In his powerful new book, Jeremy Rifkin paints a disturbing picture.... He has given us cogent reasons for asking why we cannot have a more humane society. And he has laid out a program that will point us down [that] road."
--The Progressive

Jeremy Rifkin is among the few with the vision to identify the problems that fundamentally destabilize our societies...In The End of Work Rifkin analyzes the impact of technology on modern society in a provocative and timely way."
--Sir James Goldsmith, European Parliament

(Tue Sep 23 1997 00:13)
Give them hell

Heres a url that gives the email adresses for our illustrious CON-gress-MEN and Senators.
Let em know how you feel about things.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 00:20)
@ the end
Good night ALL..........$$

(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:08)
when the cats away



no cats

sure is quiet


(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:27)

While I cannot comment about your friends not filing because of your non-filing for 11 years, I can say this:

I have a business aquaintance ( he was a municipal court judge ) who refused to file a 1040 on the grounds that it was never a law. He spend a few years in the can, my friend. Why he went to prison and you did not is of real interest to me. Please give me more details, if you would allow. 73, Lar

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:32)
The Sound of Sigh-lence

Mouse - I suppose I could post something to Jack about
"misplaced trust in Congress". : ) Want to see my letter
from Pat Schroeder?

I have an interview with the State Legislature this week, too. ; )
Budgeting and analysis. : )

I suppose I could thank Donald for his detailed reply about the
Roman Empire, too. You're right, my data about debasement relates
to the last 100 years before the Empire breaks up.


Mark Twain
(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:36)

"It is a very dangerous position for a man to be right, and for the government be wrong."

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:38)
IRS - both topics

As near as I can determine, the IRS doesn't pursue people who have
no seizable assets. I did attend a meeting, in 1994, put on by a
promienent tax protestor, he has several dozen cases filed against
the Feds at one time.

He wasn't in jail. Wasn't being pursued. Produced documentation
about how he had been in court numerous times for non-filing. But
he had no seizable assets.

Very interesting. He was able to do all kinds of contortions and
double-talk with the IRS's own tax code. It was fascinating, it's
almost like the Bible, you can twist it around, find dozens of
inconsistencies, etc.

He convinced me that it's possible to get exempted from SS payments
if you do the right things.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:46)
French letters?
Who Cares: Darn it you got me interested, the only schreder I know was in Peanuts, or was that schredinger. OK who is/was, ahhem, who is/was Pat?

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:47)


Nom Yo Ho. Must keep mouth shut or woe.
Nom Yo Ho. Must jam mouth with toe.
Nom Yo Ho. Wagging tongue must go.
Nom Yo Ho. Bank account must grow.

The IRS hearings are a joke. Nothing substantial will happen,
Sam is making too much money off property seizures.

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:55)
Congressional Futility

Pat Schroeder, the Evil Representative from Colorado. I wrote a
letter in '94 ( man, that was big year ) about the Waco coverup,
Deficit coverup, en mass resignations of Congressional reps ( which
we now know was likely precipitated by the Chinese sell-out that
everyone in Congress knew about ) . I received the following reply:

Dear Mr. Who,

Thank you for your recent letter. You read too many novels.


That's it. I doubt that Jack has actually conversed with his Reps
in any meaningful way, or he'd have discovered that they just want
you to go away now. Me, I tore up my voter registration card in
'94. My relatives have, after three more years, finally seen the
light, too.

We have NEVER received a response to FOUR requests about the
cause of death of Barbara Wise, dead pal of John Huang at the
Commerce Department. Never an acknowledgement of the $180B
discrepency between the actual and reported deficit.

We did get an actual acknowledgement about the Expatriot Tax
Law, after it was passed.

It just gets old. Congress does what it wants now.

Likewise, I quit contacting ABC, CBS, NBC, asking why they failed
to broadcast various portions of the Waco FLIR. It's a waste of
time, and we both know it. They pretend to listen, I pretend they
might actually SHOW it, and the game goes on.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 02:58)
Who Cares: Teeth before tongue renge huh?

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 03:09)
Here, here's a conspiracy for you

One that I have personal knowledge of, and that anyone here can

John Hopkins University, Applied Physics Laboratory, is currently
developing a country-wide database for the Department of
Transportation. It involves three "builds" over a period of
several years. The current build should be in place by now.

SAFER. That's the name.

First build involves tracking traffic violations by company.

Second build involves differentiating violations by individual
truck. Probably legal.

Third build involves tracking violation by individual driver
and vehicle, and building a rating system based upon an
individual's driving history.

Probably illegal. Feds know it. Discussed it. Talked
about finding a way around the legalities of it. Never a question
of IF it should be built. Just a question of circumventing
constitutionality to put it into operation.

One of the subcontractors is a company in New York that is
putting in an on-line system for the State government. It's
ultimate purpose is to BILL traffic infractions REAL-TIME,
instantly, against a BANK ACCOUNT. BOOM. GUILTY! Pay now,
or forever hold your piece.

Think about it. Instant billing to your banking account, at
the Point of Traffic Citation Issuance. Even the guys working
on this were kind of freaked out. I sure was.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 04:13)
Homestake Mining
From time to time it pays to check insider trading within personal stock
holdings. Ran across something on HM that creates ????'s.....

Set scan for 1 month and enter "HM".

On Sep. 15, Hitachi Metals sold 1.6 million shares of HM at $15/share
( nice price ) for $23 million.

Makes one wonder if Japanese are selling corporate America, and will
T-bonds be next?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 04:25)
Misplaced Trust? Wow

Who Cares: To trust the CON-MEN would be an act of stupidity. To give them a harsh opinion would not be harassment; but an act of free opinion. If they ignore; remedies exist.
I am not interested in over saturated news about murder and mayhem, which in most cases is between those birds of a feather. Such only serves to confuse with tales of conspiracy, while we 'the public' are having our butts reemed.
My interests are in what is being destroyed. That is the level of success that has been achieved. Eventually we may be at the mercy of those whose only goal is power. This power gained throught control of elected CON-MEN.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 04:41)
10 minutes a day

Spending ten minutes a day bitching to the bastards is a small price to pay for Lurkers and Posters on this board. It may have a multiplier effect?
Leland: they may buy US treasuries, but it is better to have the fiat "considering it's in vogue NOW" so they may buy again later.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 04:47)
As everyone in the world is asleep I can use up a bit of space here without being accused of tryin' to destroy the site. Suggest you all scroll past this posting!!!

Had a LOUSY day on the share market today. I'm sure you've all had em--the days when everyone in the world is bailing out of YOUR shares and buyin' all the ones you didn't want. Never seen so much red ink ( cyber-ink ) on my spread sheet in a long while!! I thought I'd give a coupla shares an extra day or two to show me that I had set my stop losses too high!!!BIG MISTAKE. Set a stop loss when you buy ( mentally--don't show your hand to the other poker players!! ) , and DON'T CHANGE IT!!! I know this rule. I've used it for a long while. It works.
Why didn't I follow it this week? Must be readin' Kitco too much!!! Don't matter what gold shares are gunnado three months from now. What happens today is what counts and I got caught today!!! I guess I should be thankful that I only started buying physical in July--after an 18 year break ( anyone out there remember 1979??? ) . Bought a nice house when I sold in '79-my favourite year. Anyway the physical is lookin' good, what with the Aussie dollar tanking. I knew it was time to buy when our pollies sold out on us!!! IF they were any good at investing--they wouldn't be politicians!!! ( always wondered why Hillary isn't a futures broker? ) . Anyhow, the physical is showing a 5-10% profit already--thanks to the $A distress. Just love those warm cuddly Koalas!! Where was I? Stop losses--use 'em, don't abuse 'em!! Now that I've given back all the $ I made last week-- I gotta use a little more discipline. I've often thought of all of you that have been following this site for a coupla years. IF you bought and HELD PM's or PM shares, I would HATE to look at YOUR red ink. Tell me I'm wrong!! You're all multi-millionaires who follow this site out of boredom--right?! ( I know Ted is--that's how he can afford to go kayaking all day!! ) . Kitco is by far the best site in cyberspace--BUT--you have to recognize that you are in a wolf's den discussing the niceties of eating lamb!!! When a vegetarian comes along, you jump on him/er like a tonne of bricks!! OK--I warned you to scroll past this posting. Now where is that Kenny Rogers' cd--"You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to RUN...."

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 04:52)
Jack Sprat

May I respectfully ask Jack just how many times he has
personally "bitched at the bastards"?

I'm sorry, Jack, but I feel my time is better spent at
the shooting range now. : ) Man, I should have kept
my free ride with the Feds. : )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:09)
commercial break :-)))
Nick - I had some real rum days in 92. It is no fun being right when you're losing money.

As to reading Kitco too much..

Hi, My name is Marcus, I'm a kitcoholic.

;- ) )

I am becoming concerned over the news that appears here, in a Fortean sense, while appreciating the generosity of posters like Donald and 6Pack for ferretting out the best darned news on the net [don't tell anyone eh?].

What is being missed? Where, as Charles Fort would say, is the damned data? The bits that are forgotten today, but are crucial tomorrow?

A poster yesterday ( apo loggies for forgetting who ) suggested a scandal as the catalyst. Scandals involve greed and hubris, a part of society who believe they are above or apart from the law that the rest of us are subject to. Suddenly being brought to book for past indiscretions.

Japan is being rocked by scandal after scandal. Bribery and corruption, failing banks, hubris of leaders.... we may have to look no further. Yet, the first prick of the Japanese bubble had no effect on the rest of us.

Now Japan has delusions of a co-ordinating a new supra-national-central-bank {amongst former enemies and future economic targets}..... what do you reckon the allies ( Sorry IMF ) will say to that??

And now back to the news.......

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:10)
Shooting Range
Who Cares: Shooting range, Gold Cup, and about 200 rounds of light
loads sounds like a good idea. Frustrations? They're usually gone
after a nice range session, eh?

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:14)
Hillary's Cattle Trades

Here's a question to ponder, Jack.

Why didn't anyone know about that "hidden" trading account in
Malaysia? Heck, you'd think it'd be a TAD hard to hide tens
of billions of dollars, wouldn't you?

And what about Barings? "OOps, we didn't know he was trading".

Come on. The whole copper thing at Sumitomo. "oops, we were
lying for TEN years". Come ON.

The records for Hillary Clinton's cattle trades are still
available at the CME. They would prove conclusively that
the trades were actually mob payoffs to then Governor Clinton.

But, mysteriously, nobody at Congress has ever pursues this.

Strange, don't you think? After all, we see accusations about
everything else. Hillary's trades were executed by a convicted
straddler, at the height of mob straddles, in the commodity
most favored by straddlers.

But nobody ever pulls the records that will prove one way or not.

Face it. We have ZERO clues of what is really going on. We see
computer generated numbers on a screen, and EVERYBODY around the
world is scamming. Heck, that Orange County Deal, there's another
one. "Oops, I got caught".

Who Cares
(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:25)
Another Pondering

Here's another pondering, another horse race to bet on.

In 94-95, Congress had more resignations than EVER before,
in two hundred years of the Republic.

Please. Calculate the odds of a "coincidence" here. With
a major election every 4 years, that's FIFTY, okay. So,
we're talking a TWO PERCENT chance that the greatest number
of resignations would just "happen" to occur in 94-95.

Now, please refer back to FBI bulletin to Congress, as early
as '92, that China might be trying to buy influence into our
government. That's over TWO years of prep time. And if SIX
senators admit they were warned by the FBI, you know EVERYONE
on Capitol Hill knew it, too.

Fast-forward to '93-4, where we see massive payoffs coming into
Clinton, now traced back to Chinese-owned banks. Tons of money.

If you were in Congress, and you saw the government being sold
out to China, and you KNEW nobody would believe you, what would
you do?

Hang around and wait for the Reckoning, which has begun?

Or take your money and run?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:26)
Dr. mesmer
Who Cares: ;-} ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the answer is staring you in the face mate ;-} no-one is in control, no-one knows what's going on, so... enough of conspiracy theories already ( as the TV tells me you Americans speak ) no-one is smart enough to control it, cos people get in the way.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:30)
Aurator---baaaa!!! Good to see the radiation hasn't reached N.Z. yet. I thought I was ALONE out here. IMHO the Japanese bubble has not finished popping yet!! You may have to get one of those slo-mo cameras to see the final collapse. R.E. prices are still WAY too high, all the tigers are producing things at lower prices, corruption, Yakuza, protecting the banks--it's all gotta end in a big bang!!--or perhaps just the opposite-- an implosion. By the way -what's this hubris?? If it's half as good as haggis--send me a kilo. Cheers from the only other person left on earth--Nick@C.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:34)
( Comment by Donald: There is more that $233 billion of US currency circulating outside the US. What happens when it comes home? )

Russia: Central bank to curb hard currency


By Chrystia Freeland in Moscow

The Russian central bank will ban the use of hard currency for cash and credit
card payments within the country from November 1 as part of the
government's campaign to strengthen the Russian national currency.

Although cash payments in hard currency were out-lawed three years ago, in
an effort to halt the dollarisation of the economy, credit card payments in
foreign currencies have been permitted. Alexander Turbanov, deputy
chairman of the central bank, said the decision was prompted by the growing
stability of the rouble against the dollar and the decline in hard currency
payments in Russian shops.

The new rule will not affect duty free shops or prevent people from opening
bank accounts in hard currency. However, the central bank recently warned
banks it plans to tighten the rules regulating withdrawals of cash in hard
currency from hard currency accounts.

The decision could also complicate life for Russian shops and their customers.
Although inflation has been brought down from its giddy heights of a few years
ago, it is still relatively steep with consumer prices rising by 14.7 per cent in
August year-on-year.

As protection against this rise, many shops do not express prices in roubles,
prefering to use "theoretical units", equivalent to 1 US dollar, and then charge
customers in dollars if they pay with credit cards. The central bank's new rule
comes at a time of steady work by the Kremlin to improve the reputation of
Russia's once jittery national currency.

Under the careful stewardship of the central bank, this year the Russian rouble
has fallen by just over 5 per cent against the dollar, although this amounts to an
appreciation in real terms.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:38)
( Be sure to read the bottom paragraph )
European banks: IMF warns over euro


By Robert Chote, Economics Editor, in Hong Kong

The future European Central Bank might have to assume greater
independent supervisory powers over banks after the introduction of a
European single currency, the International Monetary Fund warned

If Europe does not restructure its banking system after European monetary
union ( Emu ) , financial problems may build up in some institutions that
require government intervention, the IMF said in its latest report on
international capital markets.

The IMF warned that the introduction of the new single currency, the euro,
would increase cross-border competition in banking. This would require
consolidation and restructuring in the industry.

"Unless structural reforms are implemented across European banking
markets, there is a risk that local market power, rigidities in labour
practices, public ownership structures and other long-standing features
could delay or prevent these pressures from having the desired effects," the
report said.

The report added: "Under existing plans, situations could arise in which
national supervisory authorities would have information about the solvency
of a particular institution that for practical reasons it [the national authority]
may be unwilling or unable to provide to the ECB." As a result, the IMF
argues, the ECB might have to take on a greater independent supervisory
capacity, as Emu-wide markets evolve.

The IMF also warned about the dangers of greater financial market
volatility in the run-up to the proposed launch date of the euro on January
1 1999 - particularly if there were delays or disagreements about
membership of Emu.

"With currency valuations now anchored largely to a single event, the
current environment of low volatility, appreciated peripheral currencies and
interest rate convergence is a delicate situation that could change markedly
between now and the start of Emu," it said.

But the analysis added that a prompt announcement of how the successor
to the European exchange rate mechanism would work for those countries
which did not participate in the first wave of Emu could reduce the risk of
turbulence. The announcement should be made well before member
countries were named.

The report also argued that a correction in US share prices would be
"manageable" because of the strength of the US economy. But it warned
that credit markets might not have priced in the possibility of a further rise
in interest rates. This might produce a magnified response in the rates
investors demanded to buy emerging market debt.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:44)

Generally I bitch at the bastards on a weekly basis, the extent of the bitching is personal in nature, thus it's no ones concern but my own.
Stories about hidden accounts in Maylasia are garbage to me. Let me say Who Cares ( no pun intended ) .
While I don't particularly like the Clinton's. Hillary's good fortune doesn't piss me off one bit, as for gangster payoffs - Who Knows? I am not the Judge and Jury.
My concerns are how we are being led to a big fall by those who control our politicians.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:46)
LURKER: Thanks for your "Sir James" posts. The comment at the end was most interesting about Japanese holdings of US bonds being sold to purchase gold. Yesterday I found a short reference which I did not post and seems gone now. It was a comment that Japan was concerned that the new EMU/Dollar world did not include the yen on equal terms. The implication was that the Japanese would do something about that concern. If so, that validates the opinion that bond sales for gold is not a closed issue.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:53)
The Bard's Tongue
AURATOR: You sure you din't grow up in Brooklyn? You talk English so good. ( :+ ) )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:54)
@ pass the salt please..
Nick--- is that wool between your ears or are yer jest an average australian?

;- )

hubris is overweening pride-- the sort that happens just before an Australian boat capsizes defending the Americas Cup, the sort that happens just before Australia gets whipped by the All blacks..the sort that happens before Australia delivers and under-arm-ball on the last ball of the match agains my mate Brian ( Everyone in NZ knows everyone else ) of all people on earth, Australians, aka sons-and-daughters-of-the-unfortunate-convicts should know hubris... ( DonforgitAnzac! )

As to implosion.. I ( ahhemm ) believe that the great new power China will implode more like Russia and E. Europe, as the dominoes are doing now...

Any one for Mah Jong?

Nick, Are you folk still worried aaabout the Indonesia Threat?? I was in Portuguese Timor before Indonesia invaded... and I know Annie..

Australia, especially the North East , Darwin is a strategically imperative port for the ( ahem ) western Alliance )

If anyone is concerned about relevance to gold, the instability of the Tigers leads to instability in the balance of trade around S E Asia, this effects supplies of raw materials ( notably to Japan ) while most Northern Hemisphere eyes are naturally focused on tinder spots close by, so it is with antipodeans. And to Australia ( correct me if I'm wrong cobber Nick ) the greatest real threat is Indonesian Imperialism.

:- ) )

Salamat Datang

(Tue Sep 23 1997 05:55)
Fund managers frightened by share price levels, seeking alternatives.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:00)
U.S. Automakers keeping the pressure on for a dollar devaluation.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:01)
Read your NOT WELCOME sign loud and clear. Adios!

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:01)
Ahh, Destiny! Often a cruel mistress.
NICK: How often I have prepared my research and gathered my list of stocks for some shared Astrological wave, or another, and out of the ten or twenty best candidates, I bought perhaps 4 or 5, hoping to switch quickly into the as yet unpopped kernels as the first corn popped. And how often did I sit by watching all the stuff I DIDN'T buy streak to the ( you'll pardon the expression ) Moon, while the dogs I owned rolled on the grass in a lazy stupor. We can be right, we can be well-read, and we can be experienced, yet we must account for one factor above all else: Destiny, Karma, Kismet...what is meant to be for US. My sympathy to you for your bad day. May it be the last for you and all of us.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:04)
Brazil allows the currency to slip lower.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:08)
Chile and Argentina sign mining accord.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:10)
call me shishkebab, I'm talkin to Mike Shhh..
Mike Sheller good morning. As a child taken to a zoo ( Whipsnade in Barnstable, Herts, UK ) I, tookishly, looked forward to giving the rhinos rolos.
As Brooklyn is a sizable segue from Barnstable, a defintion is in order--- a rolo is a thumb-sized chocolate-covered-toffee.
This huge Rhinocerous would spent 10 or 15 minutes chewing a tiny toffee..or sometimes swallow it whole. Never easy to say what the rhino would do, you know, chew it -- or swallow it.


(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:14)
Aurator, re: that hubris. How much is it worth/kilo? Maybe we down under can corner the market. No need to use such big words, mate, Yanks won't unnerstan 'em anyway. Aurator, I was in Indonesia a couple of months ago and the last thing they are interested in is taking over Australia. Much more concerned about how they're gonna feed a coupla hundred million next century. The Aussie northern wastelands sure ain't gonna do it! There is a REASON the population of Australia is only 18 million. The whole country is beautiful, but the LIVEABLE area isn't much bigger than N.Z. As for rugby union, mate--a country with such a big inferiority complex like N.Z. needs to excell at something!! That's why we let the All Blacks win now and then, just so's you'll still have the strength to buy our goods.!!! By the way--you obviously haven't seen the rugby scores of the past week. Oughta keep up with the news, mate.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:20)
The Ice Age ( Deflation ) Cometh. Do not skip over this article.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:32)
Mike Sheller--thankyou for the sympathetic comments. Your name reminds me of the "shell game". Ever see that movie --George C. Scott??--Flim Flam Man with his accomplice and the "shell game"? You try to pick which of three shells the pea is under. A bit like astrological forcasting, eh? Anyhow, I've been pickin' the wrong shells all week and by the time I realize I've been took--the f.f. man is gone!! Now I'm real peed off and I've only got a mirror to help me find the culprit! Wonder if I'll catch him? PS--keep up the great postings. I need help from ALL sources, as my divining rod is temporarily malfunctioning!!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:38)
more stuff ain't necessarily better than less stuff...
Donald; re overproduction, have you seen recent figures for new car production in Europe.??
About 6 months ago I remember reading of 30%+car glut in EEC, when added to possible overproduction and high inventories of the 2nd most expensive household appliance the PC.. deflation is not far behind,, then, my patient.... Gum Sarn.
Talk the talk Gum Sarn,,, mountains of precious....
Happy trading, I sleep deep..

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:48)
Donald--what is I.A.G. ( Ice Age Gold ) selling for? It was bloody cold out there today!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:54)
Sunset at Kuta a memory or two ago...
Nick - you said you were in Indonesia a few months back, now with depeciating Rupiah, a holiday in Bali or Sumatra or Lombock sounds pretty attractive. ;- ) ) )

T Dotson (oldman)
(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:55)
Any future posting by me will be under my legal name. We will see if the "children" will commit a crime by using it. Any posting henceforth under the handle "oldman", unless accompanied by my legal name, was made by someone else. The e-mail is real.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 06:55)
Deny Disinformation exists
Since what we are getting paid to do here at Kitco is disinform the sincere posters, if the topic of Disinformation ever comes up, it must be vigorously attacked. This attack often includes our most authoritative Disinformation handle Oldman. Oldman does know a lot about Chomsky. Chomsk's work was done to disclose the evil practice of Disinformation. Using this knowledge to practice Disinformation is evil. Myself, I would have trouble sleeping.

Stone Slinger
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:00)
Lord love a duck oldman your purer than the drive snow ya ole dawg.

Stone Slinger
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:02)
Thats Drivennn Snow.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:07)
stripping down to bare essentials
The affliction of Gold on the psyche is a heavy weight to bear.
As Greenspan knows only to well, Gold is his barrier to unleashing
economic harmony on Earth. Yet while he finds it difficult grappling
with the unwanted child, he knows it is his draw card.
Q. When the Gold bull advances what great advance will man make?

As they say! The PIPER calls the tune!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:09)
Association attack
When we want to attack someone or something one way to go about it is to form an association THING_ATTACKED : BAD. Previous posts by disinformation handles ( too numerous to mention ) have attempted to implant the association CHOMSKY : BAD in the minds of sincere posters. We wish to do this because we are attacking disinformation and there is a strong and valid association DISINFORMATION : CHOMSKY. This may leave the sincere poster with the association DISINFORMATION : BAD.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:16)
T Dotson ( oldman ) --oldman --happy to see you back!! Any discerning reader out there will recognize the REAL oldman's postings. I saw the imposters and they were so out of character, they just hung themselves. Disregard them. They are of no consequence. We enjoy hearing from the coal miner's son. Don't disappoint us!!!!

Unlucky Josephine
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:19)
@it just isn't fair
To Nick @ Canberra ( 04:47 ) ....I relate to how you are feeling. Looks like all the specs got spooked. And those banks just keep going up! Did you fold your FNC?

what's the point
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:25)
to all
to all:

having lurked here for some time one thing is obvious, the information you will read below none of you will likely utilize. clearly most of you like to whine about your situations and are too frightended to to do anything to change it. i suppose the fear of an ever growing out of control bureacrcy is something to worry about. here is the actual structure of United States law and more specifically tax law. those of you who are lawyers can verify this to be true.. disinfo aside, those of you who are curious can verify this, those of you who merely like to pretend that someday it will all work out can skip this section, for you there is no hope!

1. congress passes a law. it is broken down into sections called 'statutes'.

2. the agency that is delegated the power to 'enforce' the statute then drafts 'implementing' ( enforcement ) regulations.

3. these regulations are required by law to be published in the 'federal register' so those parties who would be affected by the law can voice objections and ask for changes 'before it goes into effect'. ( a kind of town kiosk )

4.the 'regulations' must be very specific as to who is subject to the 'statute'.

5. if the agency requires information from someone subject to the statute it 'must' have the information gathering 'form' approved by the OMB because of the 'paperwork reduction act and privacy act'.

6. once approved the OMB assigns a control number to that particuliar form. ( no other form will have that number )

7.************ key *********** key ******************

for refernece purposes there are parallel tables put in the code of federal regulations so anyone can at a glance see:

a. the statute and the implementing regulation for that statute

b. the implementing regulation and the OMB number of the approved information gathering form.

c. the statute and the specific parties from whom the statute can require information.

now go look for the control number on the 1040 form and do your research based upon the above stated 7 items.


1. look in title 26 of the code of federal regulations ( CFR ) . the # assigend to the 1040 form is 1.1-1

2. look in CFR 602.101 which is in the index. this chart lists the number of a specific tax on the left and the OMB control number that has been assigned to the information gathering form approved by the OMB 'for that particuliar tax' on the right. hence:

1.1-1 ...........1545-0067

3. now look in the forms chart to see what form has OMB # 1545-0067


it isn't the 1040 form. it is form 2555 which is entitled FOREIGN EARNED INCOME


the 1040 form has an OMB number of 1545-0074. it has NOT been approved by the OMB to gather information for the individual income tax.

now look in CFR 602.101 ( remember from above ) and find OMB 1545-0074. it will look like

31.601 1 ( a ) -7 ...........1545-0074

***** the prefix 31 followed by any number refers to FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.*****

by looking in law books the form 1040 does not apply to the indivudual income tax.. it would have to read 1.601 1 ( a ) -7 NOT 31.601 1 ( a ) -7.

there'e more but since none of you will do anything with what little is written here what's the point!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:28)
Refreshing the association
Before or during an attack you may wish to refresh an association you have attempted to make in the past. The post of 21 SEPTEMBER 97 at 15:46 made by the handle aurophile refreshes the association CHOMSKY : BAD. Boy does it ever. However for many reasons I do not believe the human being we associate with the handle aurophile made this post. Professor Vronsky could you please verify this post with your friend. Thanks. Could it be the disinformation handle Oldman speaking dishonestly for the human being we associate with the handle aurophile? Yes it could.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:38)
Hi Unlucky Jo. Not a good day for penny "hopefuls",eh? FNC is one of the few I made money on. Folded the instant they turned down. Are you still cashed up?? I tried to buy puts on NAB today when they hit their all-time high. Not exactly followin' the trend!! Anyway, the buggers kept raising the price on me!! The Aussie options markets are I.M. Very H.O. about as straight as 'Les Girls' in Kings Cross. I'll bet you are ecstatic about taking the resident gurus advice here at Kitco. Sold all yer shares just before the big up-move. Non-share holders will still be WAY ahead a few months down the track IMVVHO- ( probably 'bout the time the Dow hits 15000 ) .

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:38)
Joke of the Morn
Gold and silver are looking mighty creaky this morning. Old Age maybe? And speaking of old age, Old Man, welcome back. Some of your imposters are poor substitutes indeed. Ted, up an at 'em big guy. Here's you a little something to read with your morning coffee grounds:

There was a young couple, very much in love, who the night
before they were to be married, were both tragically killed
in an automobile accident. They found themselves at the pearly
gates of heaven being escorted in by St.Peter. After a couple of
weeks in heaven, the prospective groom took St. Peter aside and said,
"St. Peter, my fiancee and I are very happy to be in heaven, but we
miss very much the opportunity to have celebrated our wedding vows.

Is it possible for people in heaven to get married?"
St. Peter looked at him and said,

"I'm sorry. I've never heard of anyone in heaven wanting to get
married. I'm afraid you'll have to talk to the Lord Almighty about
that. I can get you an appointment for two weeks from Wednesday."
Come the appointed day, the couple were escorted by the guardian
angels into the presence of the Lord Almighty, where they repeat
their request.

The Lord looked at them solemnly and said, "I'll tell you what,
wait five years and if you still want to get married, come back
and we will talk about it again." Well, five years went by,
and the couple still very much wanting to get married, came back.
Again, the Lord God Almighty said, "please you must wait another
five years and then I will consider your request."

Finally, they come before the Lord God Almighty the third time,
ten years after their first request, and ask the Lord again.
This time the Lord answered, "Yes, you may marry. This Saturday
at 2:00 p.m., we will have a beautiful ceremony in the main chapel.
The reception will be on me!" The wedding went beautifully, all the
guests thougght the bride was beautiful. Moses brought some flowers
from the Nile River Delta and Ghandi came wearinghis finest
hand-woven sari.

But then ... after the couple were married a few short months
had passed, then suddenly realized what a terrible mistake they
had committed, and just couldn't stay married to one another.

So they made another appointment to see the Lord Almighty, this time
to ask if they could get a divorce in heaven. When the Lord heard
their request, he looked at them, and said,
"Look, it took us ten years to find a priest up here in heaven;
Do you have any idea how long it'll take to find a lawyer?"

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:40)
Someone posted using my handle on Sat that was not myself. Who this was I do not know but can only hazard to guess. Go AFL-CIO and President Sweeney on campaign finance reform proposal. Make it an even playing field. I like Sweeney for his class conciousness.

T Dotson
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:49)
WW: Re: John Sweeney, of AFL-CIO. It's easy to be class conscious when you must live on a mere 200 g's a year, plus expenses.:- ) BBML.

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:52)
Time to move on
Disinformation Machine: It must be rough to give up a handle you have invested so much in. Ah well we move on. However what we wish to examine is the past and it is frozen.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 07:57)
If Sweeney inceases Union membership/power and influence and helps to elect progressive read "true" representatives of the people then he deserves more than every penny of it.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:06)
Unmasked again
NICK: You got me pegged. Sorry about your diving rod. I suspect it will stand tall again soon. AURATOR: We got Rolos here too. Also some Rhinos. DISINFORMATION TIP: ( 07:09 ) - That's how I train my dog Pepi.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:08)
Dipsters having a problem meeting car loan payments.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:10)
@ Tort
Good one Tort!!.....S+P futures down 1.70......Dec. gold up .30...Weather: overcast+ 56 degrees

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:13)
Ahh, Destiny! Often a cruel mistress
Mike Sheller: Your We can be right, we can be well-read, and we can be experienced, yet we must account for one factor above all else: Destiny, Karma, Kismet...what is meant to be for US. is in consistent with Ecclesiastes:

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

TESTAMENT TO THIS are My own market experiences.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:14)

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:15)
Europeans love those junk bonds!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:17)
XCL trading in excess of 3mill shares per day with upward price momentum. Recent oil discovery in china as well as article following
Full text of press release from Canadian Corporate News )
SEPTEMBER 18, 1997
X-Cal Resources Ltd.: Drilling Resumes at Sleeper
Sleeper Gold Project
Humboldt County, Nevada, USA
Drilling at Sleeper is scheduled to re-start immediately.
The West Wood, Bedrock Casino, and Ready Line targets will be
the first areas to be drilled in the fall program.
Recent work by Placer Dome U.S. has expanded the favorable
area for exploration to include the pediment covered area to
the west of the minesite. Additional claims covering the
favorable area has increased the Sleeper project to 20,000
acres. Bedrock Casino is one of the improved western targets.
Placer lost its exclusive right to participate in the project
with X-Cal when extension discussions deadlocked. ( See news
release dated August 21, 1997. )
Recent data review has included input from several of the
worlds largest mining companies who have undertaken in depth
study of the project after entering into confidentiality and
area of interest agreements with X-Cal.
X-Cal Resources Ltd. extended its option to purchase the
Amax Gold portion of the project by paying US $250,000 and
500,000 common shares to Amax. ( See news release dated August
27, 1997. ) We are currently reviewing the structure of the
purchase option.
A resource of over 1,000,000 ounces of gold has been
independently verified in the pit area. ( See news release
dated August 21, 1997. )
Analyst meetings in Toronto and New York are being
scheduled for this month.
Note: X-Cal Resources Ltd. can be referenced through the
Standard & Poors Directory.
The 1996 Annual Report is available through X-Cal
Resources Ltd.


X-Cal Resources Ltd.
Shawn Kennedy
( 604 ) 662-8245
( 604 ) 688-7740 ( FAX )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:22)
AURATOR: Auto sales to Central Europe up 26%

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:23)
@ Nick(Canberra)
Mornin ( 4:47 ) I am a vegetarian!...good post about about stickin to yer "game plan" and the consequences if ya don't....Have ya tried out that kayak ( 1100$ ) yet???

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:27)
Free speach is a good thing and all our disinformation handles clamor for it at times. But there is such a thing as too much free speach. Free speach must always be allowed for the disinformation handles. Sincere posters who pose a threat to the disinformation machine must not be allowed free speach. In fact they should not speak at all. Several stragems to implement this goal are currently in place.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:32)
This one is more agricultural than metallurgical. Hope Cherokee is watching. Looks like a possible Weekly chart Rhino breakout in Live Cattle ( well, at least they have horns! ) A one-week return move is in now, and the daily chart shows a micro Rhino waiting to be broken for the next upwave. Looks like a break out just above .69 will do it.
Anyone who goes long at the breakout, and makes money on this one, remember - I like my steak medium rare.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:35)
Hope I didn't offend
TED: Hope I didn't offend any vegetarians with that observation on Live Cattle. Ted, can you TRADE meat at least? If a person who refrains from eating meat is a "vegetarian," then could one call a cannibal a "humanitarian"?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:37)
Excess copper inventory. Good for silver prices?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:40)
Good Morning Ted: Has Willi finished his brocolli yet?

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:41)
Dissing Information
Just before I trundle off to make my living as ( as Nick so sagely discerned ) a genuine Huckster ( Madison Avenue bred ) , I just would like to make one comment. I tip my hat to Bart of course, as I do to anyone who hands me delightful gifts, and wish everyone at Kitco a really great day. But please, let's get one thing straight. It's free SPEECH, not speach. OK? This misspelling abomination is TRUE DISinformation. There, I feel better. G'day Mates!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:44)
@ Platinum news
Mornin EB:PLATINUM: Strong buying by commission houses and
dealers pushed platinum prices higher. Analysts cited
strong physical demand and a lack of fresh supply for the
metal. October platinum rose $7.20 to $437.40 an
ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Palladium
futures, which often move in tandem with platinum,
headed in the opposite direction. The nearby September
palladium contract fell $4.50 to $196 an ounce. Dealers
attributed palladium's weakness to a lack of selling by
Russia, the world's biggest producer of the metal.
Meanwhile, the U.S. Mint on Tuesday will start offering
platinum bullion coins. Industry officials said more than
25,000 ounces of platinum has been sold by the mint to
distributors and coin dealers who will sell the American
Eagle platinum coins.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:44)

As Jeffrey Dalmer would say, "A sandwich is a sandwich, but a manwich is a meal!"

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:46)
G'nite Ted, Mike--you guys look after things while we in OZ sleep and gather enough strength to win the NEXT Davis Cup. Am getting a free trial of the kayak next week, mate. Know any good life insurance companies?

Vronsky--your 08:13 was beautiful ( Ecclesiastes ) . Have written it down in my notebook and will read again with a clear head tomorrow. "...time and chance happeneth to them all." Must be something about the price of gold in that message. Nite all.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 08:53)
DONALD......One thing that'll happen is one BIG bonfire!! I've a friend in the Secret Service who has told me some horror stories about the sum of counterfit dollars out there. The plan is to eventually ( 5 years?,10? ) , place a moritorium on the old 100's ( soon 50's and 20's as well ) , and declare them worthless after a certain span of time if they've not been returned to the US Gov. When all that worthless counterfit currency comes pouring in all they'll need is a match. Also, don't forget the "under the bed" drug ( read that"unexplainable" ) , money that will surface as well.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:00)
lost - somewhere@the.internet.ether.zzz

Hi all,

Been out for awhile; havent caught up on all the Kitco chatter. Did I miss any PGM or DJIA crashes ( up, down, sideways ) ?
Puetz - hows your scenario unfolding?
EB - whats hot, dude?
RJ - wake up... and share your wealth....

Question for all the internet junkies/jockies: I travel a lot & would like to get a new, "take-anywhere" on-line service. One that offers the ability of logging on-line pretty much anywhere ( 1-800 maybe? ) , anytime ( e.g., a good chance of actually "getting on" ) , and E-mail. Price is negotiable depending on quality and options of service. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance....

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:03)
Sir James Posting - Goldsmith/Part III
LUrker: REF Your Posting  ( Goldsmith/Part III ) : Sir James Goldsmith Death, Gold Manipulation...contd.... They were without a doubt frightened when Japan's prime minister said recently that maybe Japan should sell some of its US treasury debt paper and replace it with Gold, to better balance their reserves. They jumped on him without mercy. We suspect Japan will do it anyway. You will find interesting details regarding your above comment in the following treatise by the ORACLE ( Japan Between A Rock & A Hard Spot:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:06)
@ Mike Sheller,Donald and Auric
Mornin Mike!!...yeah,I can TRADE long pork bellies...Donald: Willy don't eat brocoli but he loves saltines or anything with salt in it ( he drinks seawater ) ..Auric ( 8:44 ) good one...chuckle...chuckle...S+P futures down 1.0

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:10)
Asian fund
....good morning all...
U.S., Asian Nations to Meet on Financial Stability

Southeast Asian nations have decided there is no turning back from market-opening changes and they asked the U.S. to help
them to find ways to continue that process in a way that prevents more financial turmoil. Seven nations from the region
--Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam and Brunei -- will participate, along with the U.S., at a
meeting to discuss the creation of a regional currency stability fund. Japan and China will be invited as well, U.S. Treasury
Secretary Robert Rubin said.

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:14)
to T Dotson
T Dotson: Good for you T Dotson you have an e-mail address. Do you have more than one? Can EB access your email address ( es ) from his computer ( s ) ?

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:17)
DA: Please post your e-mail address we may be on to somethig big here. Thank.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:26)
HAVE to post just once more tonight, folks.

To all. What each of you is doing right now would probably get you arrested and incarcerated on @3/4 of this planet!! Cherish it, nurture it and never let THEM take it away from you. G'nite.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:34)
This Just Lurker 99.99

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:42)
The Inger Letter Forecast - September 22, 1997
Due to lack of momentum recent market action is characterized as having a CANINE AROMA, leaving open possibility next couple weeks the market may try going to the dogs:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 09:53)
@ the loading bench
LEELAND.... My Gold Cup was mfg. in 68; has the additional slide marking "National Match" on one side. We shoot in the Natl. Forest in an area set aside for just such, my favorite is bottles; oh how I love to bust'em... Deer season starts in Nov., can't wait...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:00)
This is one way to clear up the counterfieting of posts.

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:33)
Re: EB, civil tongue
EB: Do realize what you have just said is very close to profanity? Since you cannot speak in a civil tongue EB I will no longer address you nor respond to your insults ( however Lurker 99.98 may should it suit his purposes ) . Oh my ... You tire me EB much as others tire me. Where have heard this before? I know that was part of the BBW's swan song. Was it not? So long EB/BBW. Oh my ... PS. Oldman its best not to get mad when talking to a sincere poster. Although I guess it works fine when fighting with another disinformation handle.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:37)
BADGER: Gold Cups ( by Colt ) and our gold coins are truly something to
be enjoyed!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:45)

Gunrunner--The Webtv is portable. It's about the size of a small VCR. It will work on any phone line in the US. All you need is a TV and you're surfing!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:48)
All - I've known some who have walked that fine line between being legally correct in not filing income taxes and going straight to jail ( not having passed 'GO' ) .If you have no excitement in your life, if you are not now paranoid enough about government keeping its beady eye on you then THIS is a great place to start. There are a number of 'organizations' which will feed your appetite to be a target of the IRS. NOTE: once you decide that you can no longer take the pressure of being in no mans land of non-filing it will cost you a mint to return to the fold. Since you have no documentation to show what you have made in the past they will invent a story to their own liking and will bill you for quite an exorbitant tax. Remember the IRS is the one place that the government uses to prosecute organized crime and drug smuggling. They have the resources to make your life hell. Before you opt-out of this system you might want to hunt up a few re-enteries and ask them how it went for them.

The Wichita Lineman
(Tue Sep 23 1997 10:54)
Beat the bastards at their own game !
To the worried at Kitco: If the market will buy anything that moves, I say we should focus our energies in floating stock, not buying gold. If any guy here has an idea for a company, do it ! do it, do it !. even if it sucks, you could grab 10 million bucks from a public float from a market that is toooo gullible.

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:02)
Re: Allen, nice threat
Allen: Nice threat I will certainly have to check and make sure I have filed the last few years. Did you know the irs only keeps two years of records for most people. PS. Disinformation Machine: My we are flushing all kinds of disinformation handles today are we not? You had quite an investment in disinformation handle Allen. You even got him an e-mail address, did you not? AWAY ... To tend my other handle.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:18)
There are bulls, there are bears. But what does the "RHINO" have to say about bonds and gold? Find out in TRADING THE RHINO, Mike Sheller's trading strategy that even a kid can use:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:19)
"lookin' fer answers...."
Auric - Thanks for the suggestion... Hadnt thought about that. How does one contact a "carrier" or service ( 1-800# or local numbers at whatever city? ) Whats it cost ( i.e., can it compete with the old $19.95 per month unlimited access ) ? Is there a URL to get additional info?

I was actually thinking more along the lines of connecting a laptop to a phone/data line so as to do the old cut-n-paste shuffle for useful information.

Lurker 99.99
(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:20)
Goodbuy for now
Disinformation Machine: I grow tired of this game for now and will be out of town for a few days. Feel free to post under the sincere poster handle of Lurker 99.99. There is no way I can stop you is there not?

Strad Master
(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:24)
LURKER 99.99: While I was gone on my trip back East you posted the following to EB: "EB: Congratulations EB/Ted/Tortfeasor/Strad Master so you have an e-mail address. Can it be accessed from the same computer as Oldmans? Do all your other handles have e-mail addresses? I know you guys have lots of bucks you should be able to afford it." Do I misunderstand you or are you actually conflating us disparate posters into one entity? I'm honored to be in such exalted company - but you're wrong if you think we're all the same person. Being a rare poster here whom several other Kitcoites have actually SEEN in real life, I ( and the others ) can certainly vouch for the fact that I'm not EB, Tort, or Ted. ( Even though I wish I could claim some of Tort's jokes as my own! ) ( Wish I was as rich as you say, too! )

George Cole
(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:25)
Joberg pasted again today; North American golds little changed. Looks like Joberg is pointing the way for the entire gold complex.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:27)
@the nonsense
Bart -- Time to take out the 'trash' again!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:29)
Money Supply on a Tear: M2 & M3 surge sharply 10.2% & 12.6% annual rate. Greenspan warns Inflation is monetary phenomenon. VERY RELEVANT to Gold is Guest Guru Milhouse analysis:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:36)
Bad day in the ole RSA. I am not enjoying this at all. Imagine having over 200K worth of RSA gold stock. Unfortunately, the market thinks it's worth less than 20K. Hey what do they know anyway?

Wanna go on a real ( tourist ) gold mining expedition? -

Wanna buy gold in Singapore? -

Today's PM news from Sydney? -

Wanna tour a PM refining plant , get intro on selling PMs, see neat pictures? -

Wanna learn about gold prospecting? -

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:41)

Gunrunner--The Webtv will automatically connect to the local phone number for its ISP server. If there is not a local number, then it can connect to an 800 number. I don't think any extra charges are incurred.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:46)
The haze disaster and financial crisis story:
just a thought...the foreigner investments just the same in south east asia....they come and they go...just a circle game!WHAT A NATURE LAW!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:48)

Gunrunner--You can't cut and paste with Webtv. The service is a flat $20 per month.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:50)
Strad Master--Thanks for the compliment. Lurker 99.99, I too am a separate poster from Strad, although being classed with Ted and him does not offend me in the least and I count that a high compliment indeed. I pleased that find from your posts Lurker that I am wallowing in wealth. Would that I were. WW is the only one who I know of on this site who is rich enough to be a liberal. Once again Lurker, the Tort is only one person--Maybe I am a kindred spirit with Strad Master and Ted, but we are not of one flesh as they say.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:52)
Well, its good to be home again. After almost a month traveling its so good to sleep in my own bed. Saw a lot of beautiful country, the music was wonderful in Branson and "The Passion Play" in Eureka Springs Ark. was wonderful & moving. The weather in Colorado Springs was good and the Dinasour displays in Vernal Ut. was interesting. If you have not seen "Flaming Gorge Utah" it is one of our best kept secrets. Had the best prime rib ( sorry Ted ) ever in Ogden Utah.

What a wonderful country we have been blessed with and the people I meet are ( in general ) kind and thoughtful.

Good to be home and to "tune in" to Kitco again, you guys make my day with your wit & wisdom.

StradMaster -- How are you doing????

John W. Sorry I missed you I will be in Indiana again next year, lets try again.

Gunnrunner--I find it easier to access my home URL using a "phone card" to pick up and send E-Mail. The most time I have spent online is two minutes.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:55)
My last post illustrates that I should read what I type before I push the post button. Hopefully the meaning will come through and that is this--I am not rich but simply a wanta be rich guy.

what's the point
(Tue Sep 23 1997 11:58)
to all
let me clarify my earlier post.

statutes WITHOUT implementing regulations specifically related to those statutes in question NOT published in the CFR are LEGALLY unenforceable.

don't believe me, do your own research, then ask an irs agent the next time he hassles you in an audit to SHOW YOU IN BLACK AND WHITE the implementing regulation for the statute he his hanging you with.... that MUST be publsihed in the CFR.

tell him you'll wait after he gags on the request.

he can't becasue there aren't any.

if you want out you must face down the beast yourself with there own law.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:01)
@Early warning
To all: I suspect that the Oldman and George Cole ( I think also ) are right that the stock market bull is not yet over in the near future, even for a correction. Can't stop those baby boomers!
I hope to generate some thoughts about early warning indicators that I think Peutz has not mentioned.

In the past, "flight to safety" has been reflected by:
1 ) A drop in the dollar index of over 5% in several days ( 1987 )
2 ) A 2xrise in gold stocks ( 1987,?? )
3 ) A rapid rise in interest rates ( many times in mkt history )
4 ) Rapid rise in insider selling for no apparent reason
5 ) World wide currency crisis. Since the IMF is talking about it,
it's probably over ( this time ) .
6 ) Major disruption, such as middle east crisis
How about a drop in the ratio of daily up corporate earnings vs down earnings, insider selling in rapidly growing, leading corporations?
I am especially curious about all of your thoughts on the early indicator value of gold/gold stocks this time. Without public acknowledgment of inflation in the US, will gold/gold stocks be a leading indicator or a lagging indicator? I suspect this time around our long awaited gold/gold stock rally will only occur after a major correction. Perhaps the gold bulls should still park all of their money in other investments for now. Comments?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:15)
This will be the last fellow kitcoites. My apologies in advance.

Mr. lurk99.99% - Thank you for your 10:33. You warm my cockles when you promise to never post to me again. Although I enjoy reading your posts I would like to see you comment regarding the markets. You waste your time ONLY posting nonsense. Now, get out of the house, as you say, and get the stink blown offa you and enjoy life AWAY from the constraints of your straight-jacket and bed straps. And remember, DO NOT RESPOND. It is your solemn promise.

and have comfort in this...

You're NEVER alone with a schizophrenic - Ian Hunter of Mott the Hoople :- )

away... to save the wackies of the world ;- )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:38)
LBMA EXPOS: PART 3 (September 22, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
London Bullion Marketing Association is best described as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Daily gold trading NEARLY TWICE South Africas annual production:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:49)
JTFLICK: You certainly could be right, that the Bull Market is not over yet. Certainly the trend is on the side of that opinion. I am not going to bet money on a different opinion but this market just does not feel like a Bull Market anymore. It is hard to explain, but here are some signs. Market leader Compaq and Dell insiders are selling. Billions and billions per week since August 6th have come into the market and it has dropped or stalled. Movement into bonds is defensive by savvy money managers, more than just Buffett. Asia problems are very real and spreading. If the Bank of Thailand lost $20 billion trading currencies then there MUST be more losses from banks, businesses or brokers we don't know about yet. The UPS strike shows a change in public mood, the public supported the strikers over management. Personal bankruptcies show that the little guys are in over their heads. You provided some traditional signs that show the sign of a top. Well, traditional signs like S&P yield, PE ratios etc have been showing a top for years now and nothing happened. Mabye they don't mean anything anymore. Businesses CAN'T raise prices, earnings are stalled. I also kind of just get the feeling that the dipsters are tired of the whole thing, like its not fun anymore. The fad is over when there are no more new recruits. And last, but not least, when I went to pick up my Barron's Saturday they still had copies left over from the week before.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:54)
Leading Indicators of approaching top
JTFLICK: Of all the indicators you mentioned ( and all are quite valid ) I feel the most important is the direction of interest rates. A major, secular gold bull will revive only when interest rates head UP, reflecting not so much "Fed tightness" as an expectation that future dollars will be worth much less than current dollars. Every important bull in stocks has been fueled by cheap money, and cheap money has fueled every important bull. The 30 year Bond and the Dow Utilities are making fresh moves to the upside, which if these moves persist, could easily carry stocks back to, or even some beyond, their previous highs. I am in wonder as are many here, but I have to call it the way it is looking. And one other thing, inasmuch as the XAU and HM seem to be putting in a possible inverse H&S bottom, it is entirely possible we will be treated to the approaching end of cytcle phenomenon of all 3 asset classes rising simultanmeously - Bonds, Stocks, AND gold. This would be a clue to await weakness in bonds before selling stocks. Gotta run.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 12:56)

JTFlick--I bought a sh**load of HM @ 13, AU @ 6, and RYO @ 2. I plan to hold on like a pit bull. Will loosen my grip in proportion to their rise.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:04)
Is there historical significance in the $120+ spread between the price
of Gold and platinum?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:10)
MIKE SHELLER: Real interest rates are up. The real rate is higher than 1980, 1987 and 1929? At this point in a deflation rates staying the same are equal to a rate increase. For example, in 1932 the T-bill rate was.25%. Because prices were dropping 20, 25% the real rate was 25% that is what caused the Depression, high real rates, not "high rates".

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:10)
Vronsky @ Questions asked, Why no reply????
Vronsky::: I asked for a reply to my question, re: World Gold Council.
" Is the Gold-Eagle site a Marketing Tool, for the World Gold Council."
I would appreciate a reply. Thanks, Take Care.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:23)
EB; I don't "import"....I EXPORT!....and you are right about California &%#@^$...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:38)
Donald, Mike Sheller, Auric:
I appreciate all of your comments. As I recall, there was a key Austrian bank that failed in the thirties that caused the big banking crisis which pushed FDR into closing the banks, and confiscating gold. I think this occured years after the 1929 crash.
I guess we have to be alert to the possibility of a delayed collapse of a key world-class bank, post our SE Asia crisis. Would this trigger a disruption in the dollar before the US market investors bailed out? In this modern electronic era would there be any warning?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:38)
Missionary Rubin @ Human Rights + Religion + Economics = In God We Trust. (Money Monger)
September 23, 1997
Rubin in China to deliver stern U.S. message

XIAN, China ( Reuter ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin arrived in China Tuesday for a three-day visit designed to prepare the ground for Chinese President Jiang Zemin's planned trip to Washington next month.

The United States has set China a rigorous timetable to liberalize its economy, which includes abolishing subsidies to ailing state enterprises, before it will consider letting Beijing join the 130-member group of countries committed to free trade.

Speaking to a business audience in Seattle before his departure to Asia last week, Rubin said Washington had "serious disagreements" with China on human rights and religious freedom issues as well as economic matters.

"Another very big issue, and it's one that hasn't gotten much profile, is the whole question of appropriate reserve levels," he said. "If you have lower reserves, you can invest more in plants and equipment. It's something they'll have to analyze very carefully."

China said on Monday its foreign exchange reserves stood at $131.6 billion, one of the highest levels in the world.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:42)
"Even the experts are getting it wrong" -

I just read the Second-Quarter Report from the Contrarian Fund. These
guys have alway impressed me with the research they do. They picked
Diamond Fields when it was selling for pennies. The second paragraph
of the report is as follows:

"The gold mining and exploration companies have suffered recently due
to an abrupt decline in the gold price to 12-year lows, near $320 per
ounce. This sell-off in gold comes after the Australian central bank
announced that over the past six months it had reduced its gold reserves
by more than five million ounces. While that selling per se was already
complete, the announcement put new down-ward pressure on the gold price
as it raised the question of central banks holding gold to support
thier currencies."

This is from a group of people that should know the truth about the
market. IMHO. I'm finding it difficult to leave money in the hands
of people who use the bu***hit lies of the 2nd raters as the excuse
for thier own poor performance.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:52)
What happened to the predicted fall to $285 for gold? I'm still waiting for the next buying opportunity. When will it be? Next week, next month, 12 years hence?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 13:56)
@ Home

JTFlick--The consensus here at Kitco is that a collapse will occur in Paper. It is an opinion I agree with, and invest accordingly. The unknown is how big a collapse, and what will be the trigger.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:03)
To all: Not a good sign when Pres. Yeltsin chooses sides in the Middle East. Russia has been remarkably quiet regarding foreign affairs in the past. Is there a new policy? How much support has Russian already given to Iran? A middle east crisis would likely occur before or after the Winter months in that area of the world.
This is my first attempt at posting a file -- I don't know if it will work!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:03)
@ Whaaat:
Something is annoying the XAU during the last few minutes. Up +1.28 !

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:08)
"Money is coined liberty"
On the Side of Golden Angels provides historical precedent the House Of Rothschild might just be buying gold hand over fist!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:09)
"Money is coined liberty"
On the Side of Golden Angels provides historical precedent the House Of Rothschild might just be buying gold hand over fist!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:09)

One other thing. Lurker's post about Sir James Goldsmith. Kinda fits with Big Trader, eh?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:17)
Auric: Last week I reviewed some of "Big trader"'s messages. I don't know what is false and what is real, but the idea about paper money and paper ( or e- ) gold strikes home. How much of what we trade, even in gold, is really safe during a crisis in "paper". Is he telling us that only the buys of real gold bullion are safe? Do you know any derivative traders that speak Turkish? I think we will learn much more about the LBMA in Istanbul, than in London!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:26)
JTFlick, GSC, Ted, Neophyte, others...
Flick - I remember George stating that he is 99% sure that the market has topped and Gold is on the Bull run. To which I replied that I am 99.9% sure that this was NOT the case ( but that call is easy?? ) . I do not recall George stating the opposite but then I have read some waffling ( with all due respect to all veterans of these great 'trading battles' both George and all others ) . I call like I see it... ;- )

George - I still love you man!

Ted - How is your import/export trade surplus? Will we need to adjust the Can.$ or the US$ for you? I know a few people ( Ruby-Baby ) ...yuk, yuk. And while I'm on the subject of the Canadian $. When are you Canucks going to do something about your BORING currency. I would like to start making some Duckets here ;- )

Neophyte - re. the 'buy-on-dips'. You should 'sell-on-rallies'. That way you can make some $$$ while you watch it sink below $300 on the way to 2-8-5. imnsho The 'buy-on-dips' strategy should be applied to the OTHER white metal...cha-ching!!

OZ/NZ - You guys crack me up. Har! Har! I love a good HUBRIS! Hell, sometimes I reek of hubris ( can't help it I'm a Blessed Yank ) . You can have the Haggis...although it's palatable if you have a good beer buzzzzz


(Tue Sep 23 1997 14:47)
New Paradigm
"'New Paradigm' the word du jour that explains why the markets will rise forever, with no bear markets until the last Baby Boomer has cashed out, retired and bought that million dollar home on the golf course. The concept that productivity gains will offset inflation pressures and that Alan Greenspan is now a 'New Ager' who won't do anything to upset the bull market is just the sort of nonsense one would expect to hear as conventional wisdom around the peak of a market bubble of historic dimensions. Which pin will contract this ballon?"----Ian M.T. McAvity

(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:03)
@ EB
A surplus bro.....whether It's Canadian $ or U.S.$....and by the way the Canadian Dollar @ approx. .72 is ELEVEN percent undervalued vis-a vis the U.S buck....fair value ( from my studies @ the supermarket is .80...Where I see the Canadian $ in six months....or less!....low flyin burrito...SPLAT!....Go ( what a pathetic team ) and bas'ball....

(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:03)
Austria @ Germany
May 11 1931 Austria: Financial panic and economic depression engulf most
of the world. Vienna's Kreditanstalt goes bankrupt, possibly as a result
of French opposition to an Austro-Hungarian Credit Union, and panic
spreads to Germany where the Darmstadter and National Bank closes.

The Bank of England advances money to Austria but Britain's own Financial
position is shakey. Britain receives a French-American loan August 01,
the pound sterling is devalued September 20, from $4.86 to $3.49 and
Britain is forced to abandon the gold standard once again Sept. 21.

Japan abandons the gold standard December 11.

The "Swope Plan" for economic recovery outlined by General Electric
President Gerard Swope 58, says in effect, leave the problem to business and let Trade Associations develope national economic plans to
revive the economy.

1933: Adolf Hitler comes to power, as Chancellor, January 30.

1938: Germany Annexed Austria.

Germany's trade balance shows a deficit of 432 million marks. The country
has been bankrupt since 1931.

Roosevelt asks Congress for help in stimulating the U.S. economy as
business remains in recession, with 5.8 million Americans unemployed.
Congress reduces Corporate profits tax May 27 and passes an Emergency
Relief Appropriations Act June 21.

Central Banker
(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:16)

My name is Moneychanger, I have a seat on the board of an important Central Bank.
I lend your country large sums of money, money that you the taxpayer must make good on. I am also a director/stakeholder with a large credit card company.
I make/take money hand over fist.
Your money is mine, so get use to it. I will control you. We control equities, interest rates and gold.
My partners and I may eventually take a short ride on gold, but its better the way we have it now.
Remember, Ya gotta have a gimmik, an I'll take yer to the cleaner, so be careful.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:19)
M3 up 8.5%
More interesting comments that appeared in same newsletter as the Sir Goldsmith article.

"Alan Greenspan has said repeatedly that he would open the Fed's magic checkbook to buy US Treasuries when faced with a torrent of international sales. The market might take him up on it. If it does, the resulting money growth will exacerbate and already precarious situation...and represent the first step toward spiralling inflation."

"Randall Forsyth of Barron's has warned that, in the coming weeeks, we could see record growth in M3. Japan doesn't have to actually sell bonds to wreak havoc. All it has to do is refrain from buying. The Fed is then forced to monetization to keep the government in business. Previously, in a roundabout way, these monetizations cycled back into stocks and bonds. That might not be the case in the future. It is likely to end up in M3. Price inflation will become the delayed result of monetary inflation bleeding out of the stock and bond markets--where it has simply been holed up for while. The only other possibility would be to default on bond redemptions, cause a stock market crash, and wipe out inflation as it was in 1929 through a deflationary disaster."

(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:31)
Y2000: Extracts from article Information Week greater than 60% time and expense will be in testing changes made to systems and code. "Very little testing can be automated" - VP Chase Manhattan Bank. Nearly everyone plans on starting testing on or about Q1 1998. Unprecedented concentration of effort will strain resources. "The magnitude of testing is scaring alot of folks." Trigon Blue Cross Director of Applications. "The business people are the ones who will have to certify the ( compliance ) ." CIO Sanwa Business Systems. Increase in business unit work loads of 10 - 20% to test IS coding correctness. Interrelatedness of all systems creates "awesome" challenge. "This is the largest business technology event that has ever taken place" Chair of Securities Industry Association and senior VP Merrill Lynch. ML has 220 mln lines of code, est cost $200 mln. They are only one of 1,000's who must all fix their own systems and complete work and testing for interoperability.

So far here we have only discussed the coding changes needed. This throws light on the other two pcs: testing and interoperability. Its gonna be a burnin hunk 'o steamin junk when it all breaks down, folks. We should keep our ears open to Q1 '98 re: results of testing, etc. If it starts to get quiet then we know bad things are happening.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 15:53)
Hitler @ USofA Connection
Although any number of magnates have been given credit for the financing
of Hitler, including Fritz Thyssen, Henry Ford, and J.P. Morgan, they, as
well as others, did provide millions of dollars for his political
campains during the 1920's, just as they did for others who also had a
chance of winning, but who disappeared and were never heard from again.

In December of 1932, it seemed inevitable to many observers of the German
scene that Hitler was also ready for a toboggan slide into oblivion.
Despite the fact that he had done well in national campaigns, he had
spent all the money from his usual sources and now faced heavy debts.

In his book Aggression, Otto Lehmann-Russbeldt tells us that "Hitler was
invited to a meeting at the Schroder Bank in Berlin on January 04, 1933.

The leading industrialists and bankers of Germany tided Hitler over his
financial difficulties and enabled him to meet the enormous debt he had
incurred in connection with the maintenance of his private army. In
return, he promised to break the power of the Trade Unions. On May 2 1933
he fulfilled his promise."

Present at the January 04 1933 meeting were the Dulles brothers, John
Foster Dulles and Allen W. Dulles of the New York law firm, Sullivan and
Cromwell, which represented the Schroder Bank. The Dulles brothers often
turned up at important meetings.

They had represented the United States at the Paris Peace Conference 1919
John Foster Dulles would die in harness as Eisenhower's Secretary of
State, while Allen Dulles headed the Central Intelligence Agency for

Their apologists have seldom attempted to defend the Dulles brothers
appearance at the meeting which installed Hitler as the Chancellor of
Germany, preferring to pretend that it never happened.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:10)
..... Gunrunner .....

Been looking for you............................

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:34)
To all: I guess we need to think like A. Greenspan. He probably understands as much or more about the current situation as we do. Certainly he can see more cards than we can. I would guess that he knows the worst evil is deflation, not inflation, and is inflating the dollar like crazy! Looks like that's whats happening!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:34)
THE Hong Kong ORACLE Speaks
With Churchillian clarity & logic Guest Guru Milhouse analyzes Alan Greenspans "secret weapon to ensure economy doesnt dive. M-3 accelerated growth is keystone to higher GOLD prices:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:39)
Dow/Gold Ratio 24.77

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:48)
JTFLICK: Right now the deflation is happening in Asia as borrowers default in Japan, Korea, Thailand etc. It is difficult for Greenspan or the IMF to mitigate that deflation. China is being impacted now, in my opinion. Shanghai is down 10% over recent days. China is anticipating the competition from devaluating countries in the region. This is just the begining. You are right deflation is the problem. Unlike inflation, deflation is not voluntary. I feel that deflation is positive for gold although many here at Kitco do not agree with that.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:48)
New Poster ID Dept: Starting real soon messages will appear with a computer generated ID # to authenticate the poster. Thank you "lurking student in the shadows" for the idea for the quick and easy enhancement. Using passwords to post messages hasn't been ruled out, but this should tame the imposters.

KITCO NEWS DEP'T: We used to have an email service sending price updates automatically to everyone who registered. We stopped taking on new subscribers in January because of the ISP situation at the time which you may remember. Anyway we got it working again.

SCHEDULED Email gets you the metals prices delivered to your emailbox whenever you want. NEWSFLASH EMail sends you a market update whenever there are changes in the prices. You set your own trigger values. We are now open for registration at This is a really good service,and like everything else at our website, you don't even have to pay!

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:55)
BART, ALL: The ID# is a great idea. Just remember that many of us have two internet connections ( home and work ) , and also that when you use two different browsers, as I occasionally do at home, you may wind up with yet a third ID#.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:58)
BYRON: I see that you added a $1.99 flea collar to kitty's wardrobe.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 16:59)
Donald: I think we would all agree that during inflationary periods gold goes up. The only time I know of when we had deflation was in 1929 and in ( I think 1937 ) . Both of those times gold stocks and gold were at a low. In 1929, gold stocks went up briefly, as I recall, settled, and did not really move until FDR raised the US price of gold. Regardless, during this time, if you had held gold stock from 1929-1934 or more, you would have done wery well. In 1937, gold stocks were bottoming at the time of a major correction ( aug 1937? ) , and rallied at least 40% beginning in mid October. I would guess that the 1937 marekt behavior period fits closest to the current one. Comments?

Stone Slinger
(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:09)
kickem when their down
The IRS say all the accusations in the Senate Committee are misleading and unfounded?? Central Banker your words are music to my ears could you please step in create some happy paper and give it to each and every the middle and upper managers in the IRS, they've worked hard. Maybe pipe in a theme song "Song sum Blue weeping like a willow". ARARARARAR

May they ridicule and destroy anyone suggesting the IRS is intimidating the American People. Shame on the traitors.. ARARARARARAR

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:16)
Fed Governor warns of inflation ( a week before the FOMC meeting )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:22)
Slow Days and Wicked Nights
Most honorable and esteemed Bart Kitner. These are good changes indeed. I thank you. If you want to converse here ya' better not hide cause this is a gooooood flashlight...

Y.J. - It won't matter if you have 1, 2, or five ID#'s. As long as there is concistency it won't matter. Just say Yellow Jacket@Home or @work etc. If someone is paranoid they can do some investigation and find out it's you ( the only thing required is a pencil and paper ) . The only people this will affect are the wackie-yackie's.

I am a Yackie ( say alot of nothing ) but I ain't wackie ;- ) sign up for e-mail...oh my!
EB$$$$$$$$$$$ cha-ching!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:25)
1929 @ Morals + wages + golden glow = Good times are here.
During the Daffiness Days of the Golden Insanity every kind of nonsense
was devoutly believed.Bankers and Brokers were paragons of virtue, their
honesty exceeded only by their wisdom. Businessmen were statesmen whose
views of the world were as accurate as science, as undebatable as

When they said in 1928 that what was good for business was good for the
country it had the force of one of the Ten Commandments. And yet within
a matter of months it would be discovered that their ignorance was
exceeded only by their dishonesty, that they had plundered the American
public of billions with no more morals or compunction than a common

Examine the legend of general prosperity during the golden perfection of
the boom days of the 1920s. At its very crest, when a golden glow, it is
said, shed its radiance on every man, almost 60 per cent, according to
the figures of the conservative Brookings Institution, did not receive
sufficient income to buy "the basic necessities" of life.

In 1929 an income of $2,000 was needede by an average family "to supply
only the basic necessities" But in that year, the richest year until that
time in all American history, 16,354,000 American families, 59.6 per cent
of the American population, received less than $2,000 a year.

Nearly 6,000,000 families received less than $1,000 a year while
12,000,000 families or 42 per cent of the population received less than
$2,500 a year.

Before the crisis of 1929 the 33,000,000 wage earners in the United
States received an average of $25.00 a week. More than half of the
country's workers fell below the average and less than one-tenth were
earning as much as $40.00 a week.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:35)
JTFLICK: I prefer to look at gold in terms of purchasing power rather than price. Here is an example:

Presume you want to set aside $20,000 for an anticipated expense 5 years from now, such as tuition for a child in college. You purchase 62 ounces of gold at $321 a total of $19,902

If during the next five years we have 100% inflation college has gone to $40,000 and gold has gone to $642. You sell the gold, pay 20% on capital gains tax, ( even though you had no real gain ) $39804-20% = $31,843. You need to scrape up another $8000 to pay the full bill.

However, suppose we had deflation of 50% over the same 5 years. College is now $10,000, gold is now $160. You receive a tax credit for your $10,000 "loss" and your tuition bill is paid in full.

I realize that this example is a bit simplistic but the strategy is valid.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:39)
Mexico peso
Banco de Mexico said late on Monday that it was prepared to curb peso strength and reduce interest rates by, among other
measures, allowing the money market to close long on liquidity, instead of neutral as at present.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:54)
Donald: Your point is well taken. During deflation, gold prices could go down, but if everything else goes down more, you still do well.
Lurker: The Goldsmith parts I-III ring true with me. How sad that he let greed overwhelm him. Another matter is why the "New World Order" wanted the price of gold to go down. If it was simple greed it would make sense. However, I wonder if there was another agenda. The only one I can think of is to discourage others from buy gold, but that makes no sense to me, as the typical outcome is that gold would rise even faster when the tide shifted. Was it so that Japan or some other world power could buy gold? Was it power- to punish some other country? Ideas?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:55)
@ Ring Around The Collar:
Donald: This is just the begining. This is one "upscale" kitty. : )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 17:58)
Donald - will it be Mr. Yen or RubymeisterCo. to 'leak'...the bomb is ticking...and someone will make a HUGE cash 'explosion'!

Can someone tell me the funnymentals ( thanks T.D.Old ) behind the BIG Yen move in May? It makes NO sense, albeit I don't really care as long as I am on the right side. I bet that Mohat guy was on the wrong side of the trade and he is pissed because GeorgeS scooped him... i don't know... w/w

Ted - I'll send you some tomatos...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:03)
To all: Re a speculative attack to push gold down -- amplify the deflationary trend on gold of the last few years.
Could this be to launch a gold-based currency? How would temporarily pushing the price of gold down fit into this scenario?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:08)
Goldsmith Manipulations
JTFlick; Maybe as BT hinted Japan's a sideshow, Russia's the key.
If Russia were able to buy cheap gold and then somehow engineer a rushon the stuff, this would destabilise the US dollar dominance and improve their situation considerably.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:09 - ID#194311)
ID testing 1-2-3
Cool I'm the first.

George Cole
(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:12 - ID#430205)
EB: If the Dow closes above its August high, I will concede you were right. I still don't think it will unless bond yields drop considerably further. But the NASDAQ and small cap indices have bested their August peaks. Still I do think history will show that the topping process began in August.

Looks like the North American golds gave the correct signal today, not Joberg.

Still waiting for a huge volume rally in the XAU that will signal a new gold gold bull. Today's action was encouraging, but volume was quite lackluster. No cigar!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:12 - ID#194311)
ID bug testing 1-2-3
It's not you it's me

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:19 - ID#258224) rates; CB sales; quick profit on covered shorts
Gold rates down about 30 pts. from yesterday. It was about 3% last week. I think that speculators may have borrowed gold to dump behind a CB gold sale news item. Good idea. A quick buck drop at 1 Mill ozs. au in a few minutes of trading would net someone a nice covered profit of $1 Mill.

The risk of losing money in a quick covered short done on the strength of a CB sale would appear to be negligible to a professional metals speculator. Any traders concur with this ?

I wonder if the $1 rise in spot will hold tonight ?


(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:22 - ID#22956.1)
Ted and MikeS
I think Ted is on to something with regards to Can$, eh? There are many indicators that make this look like it's turning the corner. There even seems to be some mini-Rhino's, Mike?. Best of all I like what you said about grocery store prices. K.I.S.S. , eh? You sly devil, Ted. Let's w/w here and see what can unfold. Been between .72 and .76 for more than TWO years...SOMEONE made some money writing options...Yes they DID! Volatility is down...hmmmmmmmmmmm... the charts...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:23 - ID#225164)
George Cole -- Agree with your analysis on volume. I sold some gold shares last week, only to see them rise further yet! ( DAMN! ) But I'm glad to have sold at a small profit. The liquidity is the problem right now. You can buy them O.K. Just don't try to sell them, unless it's one of the 'majors'. There is little demand yet. I was looking at some former high fliers in the gold stocks last night. Some of those puppies are down 75% and still falling. No more knife catching for me! You should see my hands. :- ) ) OOOOOoooowwww!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:29 - ID#22956.1)
Excellent Id#'s!!!!
I assume my work will be .2 ? This is VERY good. Hey Ted. Hasn't Barry Bonds been staying at your house?? Yuk, Yuk.

Great Job BART!


(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:34 - ID#57172.3)
Kiwi: I rember BT saying that also about Russia being the "key". One problem, why would the "New World Order" and Sir W. Goldsmith go along with this?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:34 - ID#206190)
Jail @ Fixing prices
September 23, 1997
Ad executives face prison for price-fixing

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Two ad executives face likely prison terms and their company a $9 million fine after agreeing to plead guilty to fixing prices in ad displays for Miller Brewing Co. and Anheuser-Busch Inc., the Justice Department
announced Tuesday.

The Justice Department and attorneys for Jon Wamser of Mukwonago, Wis., and Henry Zeni of Brookfield, Wis., are recommending 13-month jail terms for each defendant, the department said. In addition, they will recommend a $350,000 fine for Wamser and a $100,000 fine for Zeni, it added.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:36 - ID#26793)
GEORGE COLE: Re your reference to interest rates; we did not have a CPI during earlier inflationary years such as the Civil War and the post WWI period. Could it not be possible that at this moment we have the highest real interest rates in history? Long real rates are over 5% by any measure. Short real rates are over 3.5%. Even during April of 1980 real rates were lower than that.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:36 - ID#343351)
Tokyo, Japan
Good Morning from Tokyo. Hashimoto seems to have lost his second term. He appointed Sato as a member of Cabinet despite the fact Sato was criminally charged in the court of the Lockheed bribery. Again the rotten politics, the Asian 'CULTURE.' As a result, the Bank of Japan does not look to purchase gold. Sorry.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:38 - ID#331135)
Re: Sir James Goldsmith: Among the disinformation posted hereabouts lately, none is more egregious than that referring to the late, great Sir James Goldsmith. Sir James was the number one enemy of the New World Order, having spent most of the last decade of his life, fighting it with all his considerable might. The son of a French Jewish father and a British Anglican mother, he was a citizen of both counties. Having owned businesses in several countries, he was, in a very real sense, a citizen of the world. I could write a sizeable book about Sir James, but a few enumerated facts will suffice:
1 ) He wrote 2 books, which comprise as cogent and well argued indictment of the New World Order as could come from the mind of any one person. "The Response" is out of print and available only in large libraries. "The Trap" ( 1994 ) is available at any book store. has it on line for less than $10. All you have to do to disabuse yourself forever af any notion that what you have read here recently is true, is to read this small ( about 120pages ) powerfully argued book.
2 ) He made 2 trips to D.C., to spend a total of 3 days testifying before Sen. Hollings' committee in opposition to NAFTA and GATT.
3 ) He formed a political party, ran for and was elected to the new European Parliament on a platform which called for total and complete resistance to the Maastricht Accords, the EMU, and all other attempts to rob the nations of their sovereignty.
4 ) He took great pride in the fact that, in all the business takeovers and acquisitions he effected in his long and successful career, He NEVER moved a single factory out of a high wage western country to produce goods with cheaper labor and send it back into the West. He considered this to be criminal in nature.

If you doubt what I've written, get "The Trap" and see for yourself.

If we love liberty, we MUST know who are our friends as well as who are our enemies. George Soros, just this week, said that if his attacks on various currencies weakened those nations, he considered it a good thing, because it hastened the day when all the world would be under one government. That, my friends, is an Enemy. Attack him with your complete arsenal. But let that great friend of liberty and national integrity, Sir James Goldsmith, rest in peace.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:39 - ID#206190)
Balance Books @ Canada
September 23, 1997

OTTAWA, Sept 23 ( Reuter ) - Canada's Liberal government unveiled plans on Tuesday to eliminate its budget deficit a year ahead of schedule and turn its attention to new spending on health, industry and youth.

The re-elected government, setting out its priorities for a second term in its "Speech from the Throne," said it would balance the country's books by the fiscal year starting next April, at the latest.

"The government will continue to be vigilant and responsible about keeping the financial affairs of the country in order," it said, pledging to put its debt, as a percentage of gross domestic product ( GDP ) , "on a permanent downward track."

It pledged initiatives on home medical care and providing access to prescription drugs -- two measures advocated in
February by a government-appointed health care task force.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:43 - ID#252312)
T-Dodson: I have read the trap. Are we talking about Sir James Goldsmith, or Sir William Goldsmith? Which one is the gold trader?
I am very interested in your opinions regarding the reason why gold has been pushed down. What of the posts by Big Trader do you beleive?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:49 - ID#206190)
Coffee @ SoyBeans
September 23, 1997

Coffee shrugs off producer deal, soybeans down

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Coffee prices closed lower Tuesday as the market shrugged off an agreement by producing nations to keep restraints on their exports.

"Everybody I talk to has better yields than expected," said John Zanutto, vice-president at Merrill Lynch. "Some are getting really good yields, more than 50 ( bushels per acre ) ."

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:51 - ID#331135)
JT: If the earlier reference was to ANOTHER Goldsmith, mea culpa! I mistakenly assumed that the reference was to Sir James, and since he did a great business favor for me while he was alive, I felt obliged to defend him now that he's not around to defend himself. I'm most pleased to find that it was NOT he who was being attacked.

Gold is going down because Bob Rubin LIKES being in charge and knows that he will stay in charge so long as paper goes up and gold goes down. That's all.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:53 - ID#331135)
JT: I believe NOTHING of the posts ascribed to "Big Trader".

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:53 - ID#426220)
There are bulls, there are bears. But what does the "RHINO" have to say about bonds and gold? Find out in TRADING THE RHINO, Mike
Sheller's trading strategy that even a kid can use:

Allen (USA)
(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:54 - ID#255190)

JTFlick - I'm not so sure that Russia has the influence to push gold down. In fact this business looks orcestrated but I can't figure out who. Let's call them the X-Group. They have a plan. Its probably a matter of positioning in relation to a collapse of the US$. They have *alot* of resources. My guess is its the EEC/EMU gang. They Europeans have, more than many, suffered humiliation under US influence since WW II. Europe was the *center* of the universe. They colonized much of the barren wilderness ( taking over native lands ) of the world and subdued many kingdoms and empires in the process. WW I & II brought them into a position of extreme humiliation. Yet I don't beleive they have ever forgotten that they were on top of the world for centuries. They play chess well. See opportunities to regain glory and are positioning themselves to take advantage of our ingrained stupidity. Is it a coincidence that the EMU and Euro$ will be in place just before 2000 when our systems will be failing like pop corn? I DON'T THINK SO.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 18:59 - ID#18970)
Why would the New World order People ever want to let gold go up except when they cant stop ot. Ques. Who are the real New orld Order people and who is not in or does not want to be in?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:00 - ID#364147)
@ #22956.1
Hi 22956.1!!....sounds like these are our prison!...Canadian dollar @ 71.93....Time for a movie ( Courage Under Fire ) with the "little woman"....bbl dudes......

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:03 - ID#258427)
Test for ID number
Do I have an ID number?? Curious minds want to know!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:11 - ID#258427)
One more test
Will the number stay the same?? How about when I access from home?
Let's see!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:14 - ID#336259)
last test
Can we determine that this is BillD?? Is the ID the same? Let's see!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:15 - ID#258427)

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:23 - ID#427357)
The Inger Letter Forecast - September 22, 1997
Due to lack of momentum recent market action is characterized as having a CANINE AROMA, leaving open possibility next couple weeks the market may try going to the dogs:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:23 - ID#206190)
Mutual @ Funds
September 23, 1997
US stock mutual funds up 11 percent in quarter -Lipper

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - U.S. funds that invest in stocks are up 10.99 percent so far in the third quarter, and if they hold these gains, it will be the first time in six years that the mutual funds have racked up a double-digit gain, Lipper Analytical Services Inc. said Tuesday.

Meanwhile, the average world stock mutual fund is down 2.11 percent, hurt by currency instability and sluggish economic growth, particularly in the Pacific Rim, according to data available at the tail end of the third quarter, the company said.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:25 - ID#206190)
Car makers @ The Heat is on
September 23, 1997
U.S. lawmakers urge action on S.Korea car trade

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - More than a dozen senators and 43 members of the House on Tuesday urged President Clinton to take action against what they said were unfair car trade practices by South Korea.

In a letter signed by Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a West Virginia Democrat and 12 colleagues, the senators said they were concerned at implementation of a 1995 agreement with the United States to open up South Korea's car market to more foreign imports.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:31 - ID#215208)
Will someone do me a favor?
Anyone have the URL for Jerry Favors' analyses? Lost my hard drive, and many valuable URL's. Unfun.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:32 - ID#18970)
Clinton is the teflon President b/c of his New World Order credentials. ( If he had vetoed NAFTA he would have been impeached by now. His corresponding NWO group ( Gingrich/Lott/Dole/Bushes ) in the republican party lay back on the issues where they could really score b/c the plan is to have Clinton there and, as the budhist Temple issue dissapates Get Gore in for 2000 and keep Guess Who as Treasury Secretary or as perhaps next Fed Chairman. Repubs keep Congress and all decisions to screw the people become bi partisan. During this process two things are vital/ Strong Financial mkts and the confidence they innure. If we get a Peutz type scenario the NWO crashes. Keep this in mind and everything makes sense.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:42 - ID#338452)
to Back

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:42 - ID#252132)
@ One Favor Deserves Another:
Favor Path: ....besides I want to find out what cards I am holding. : )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:44 - ID#252132)
@ The Card Club:
Hey!! I got three 2's. Anybody can beat that????

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:44 - ID#260296)
To Front
Jeez, I feel like a convict !


(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:45 - ID#18970)
I lost a boat load of files yesterday is there some virus going on somewhere?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:48 - ID#338452)
to BART:

So Bart, I post as Front and get a number.... I then post from the same computer as Back and get a different number ... So what am I missing here Bart ?


(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:49 - ID#215208)
You win!
Byron - Much grass. And you win, with your treble 2's vs. my pair of 2's. Bart - I want a redeal!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:52 - ID#369253)
just dropping in for my tattoo ;o]

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:52 - ID#15334)
DJ For Favors and Kaplan See posts at 7:04 and 7:24 on Friday morning.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:54 - ID#206190)
Bart @ WHY ? + WW ???
WW @ 18:59 & 19:32 are ID#'s of ( 1-8-9-7-0 ) yet, all others are six #'s.

WW: What is this NEW WORLD ORDER PEOPLE's purpose in the world economics.
Competition, with the World Central Bankers, or is it, soft politics??
Like Hitler, and company. Are they European, or Arab or Asian ???

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:59 - ID#252132)
@ I Was Robbed:
6pak: I quess it means that not all people were dealt "a full deck".: ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 19:59 - ID#215208)
Thanks zz.

WW - My hard drive was dead, dead. Wouldn't even spin up, much less read/write. Is there a virus that can do that? Must be a doozy. ( I run Norton Antivirus at all times. )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:00 - ID#338452)
To Byron:

Byron: Do a test fo rme please and post something as 'FRONT' in the Your name field please...Thanks


(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:02 - ID#286199)
@ a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
So who got #1????

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:02 - ID#261269)
very..very...very...VERY...VERYlast post (from home)
Test to see if I have the same number from home...letsee....

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:02 - ID#57172.1)
Lurker: I reread your 3-part posts on Goldsmith. It does say Sir James Goldsmith, not Sir William Goldsmith. As I recall the 1993 gold rally was rumored to have been orchestrated by G. Soros, and Sir William Goldsmith. Could you check to see that we are talking about the right Goldsmith?
TDotson: I apologize for what disinformation I may have contributed to, something I feel most strongly that we all must fight against. I think if our leaders could only speak the truth, our world would be very different. Of course, we the public are partially guity for allowing the deception.
( you are the Oldman, aren't you? You see I'm not sure with all the confusion recently -- looks like Bart's change will help )
One more item, if Rubin orchestrated the bear market in gold, why did A Greenspan go along? He of all people would know what would happen if they pushed the price of gold down too far. Perhaps someone else got on the bandwagon.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:02 - ID#330306)
@ This Is Going To Get Me Into Trouble:
Hi Front: I'm back!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:03 - ID#14756.1) are 101%correctabout JIM

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:03 - ID#284367)
Really it's DJ
Front - So a person can post under two different handles with different codes anonymously. But what happens if I try to post as you?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:05 - ID#252132)
@ Deal Me A New Hand:
Front: I love it. Now I have three 3's. Better than three deuces. Wow. Deal me another hand. Let's go for a full house. : )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:07 - ID#283176)
@ Valley
Hey Ted .... Thanks for the mail, I'll get back to you soon. Just popping
in to get my finger print.

George Cole
(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:08 - ID#430205)
WW: You are right. Gold will not move as long as Rubin and Greenspan can prevent it. But their power to keep the yellow down will not last forever or even much longer.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:10 - ID#390214)
Merrill Lynch forecasts a bear market(1998)
"[The US market] will go higher at least until the
early part of 1998," Mr Farrell said yesterday. "My
feeling is it will be a pretty speculative period. There
is a good chance though, that this will be the last
phase of the bull market and will be followed by
some kind of bear market in 1998."

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:10 - ID#223146)
I have read comments regarding who is pushing down the gold price. How about the US. Maybe they are carefully buying the gold through third parties. Their reason is what we always thought-- That which they print has only promotional value no real value. If you swindled the world how would you unwind the con with advantage.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:11 - ID#228133)

Really Allen ( USA ) Should be 255190

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:12 - ID#252312)
Bart: I think we have a problem. I have been keeping my name the same, and I may have changed my "email address", which I assume is linked to my true e-mail address. Either I'm no longer "me" - ( rather unlikely ) , or there is a problem with the numbering system. Why not link the numbering system to our true e-mail address ( you would know this, because you send the access info to this addres ) , and to our "name". Then the number would only change if we change our name or e-mail address. I think this would work better. Thanks in advance for this great system! I have been at this for three days, and feel that there are some great people out there who simply want the truth!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:13 - ID#338452)
DJ,Byron etc.

Well, it would seems that if Byron posts under his name he gets:

Byron as Front = 330306
DJ as Front = 284367
Front as Front = 338452
Front as Back = 260296

I think it just gives each handle on a computer a different number. i.e. all Fronts from me at this ISP = 338452 and all BACKS get 260296. However, DJ and Byron can use my handle of Front but would achieve different numbers. So we can all go to each others house and confise the hell out of Bart ! Yea Right....StradMaster, I'll be over at 8:00 chill the beer! ( :- ) HAHA


(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:16 - ID#215208)
I give up.
Byron posting as Front - Actually you had a full house. Better get the book out again and study hard. :- )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:18 - ID#27049)
"Money is coined liberty"
On the Side of Golden Angels provides historical precedent the House Of Rothschild might just be buying gold hand over fist!

Spud Master
(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:23 - ID#288154)
...i am not a number, i am a free man...
Curious ... where is "LGB", "JollyMiller", et al? Trying to figure out how to do multiple posts with the new ID# ( grin ) ?

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:23 - ID#252132)
@Where's The Rule Book:
DJ: Are 0's aces?? Maybe they are joker's- then joker are wild and I have FIVE three's. Yippie!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:24 - ID#390214)
Mexico peso devaluation
...a follow up on earlier news......from London FT
Mexico: Central bank talks the peso down


By Leslie Crawford in Mexico City

The Mexican currency weakened yesterday after the Bank of Mexico
signalled concern that the strong peso was hurting exporters.

Late on Monday, after the peso had reached its strongest level against the
dollar this year, the central bank announced technical changes to the way it
manages the money supply which will allow it to combat unnecessarily high
interest rates and the continued appreciation of the peso.

The announcement led to a sharp fall in the value of the peso, which traded at
7.77 to the dollar yesterday against 7.73 on Monday.

Exporters have complained for many months that the strong peso, buoyed by
record inflows of foreign investment, was hurting competitiveness. In July,
Mexico recorded its first trade deficit since the traumatic devaluation in
December 1994.

Central bank officials said they had waited until after Mexico's July elections
to introduce a more flexible monetary policy, to avoid charges of pumping the
economy to win votes for the ruling Institutional Revolutionary party. The
Bank of Mexico has been sensitive to such accusations since the 1994
presidential election, which was preceded by a strong expansion of credit that
ultimately brought about the currency's collapse.

In its announcement on Monday, the bank said it was giving itself leeway to
leave the money market long on liquidity to confront "unnecessarily high
interest rates". With the elections past, and inflation on a downward trend, the
bank said it could again send signals that interest rates should fall.

However, central bank officials said they would only loosen credit if interest
rates appeared to be out of synch with the exchange rate, if inflation fell faster
than anticipated, or if there was an undue appreciation of the peso. None of
these conditions held today, the officials said.

The bank stressed that its overriding concern remained the fight against
inflation, which has dropped to below 1 per cent a month. Central bank
officials said they were close to meeting their end-year inflation target of 15
per cent.

Mexico's success in taming inflation, and capital inflows which have allowed
the Bank of Mexico to accumulate $11bn in international reserves this year,
may lead the bank to abandon the strict monetary targets that have been in
place since the peso crisis.

The bank began controlling the growth of the monetary base, mainly coins and
bills in circulation, as a confidence-building measure after the devaluation of
the peso. However, bank officials said monetary targets were less relevant in
the context of Mexico's strong economic recovery, and targeting inflation
might be sufficient in 1998.

 Copyright the Financial Times Limited 1997
"FT" and "Financial Times" are trademarks of The Financial Times Limited.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:28 - ID#206190)
Struggling Banker (Didn't do it) @ Politics + Environmentalists ?
September 23, 1997
Hurwitz did not "pillage" Texas thrift - attorney

HOUSTON ( Reuter ) - Attorneys for Maxxam Inc. Chairman Charles Hurwitz said Tuesday he did not mismanage or "pillage" a Texas thrift that failed in 1988 at a cost of $1.6 billion to taxpayers.

"You don't have any of that self-dealing," Keeton said. "You have people struggling ... to make this institution survive.

"There's no burn and pillage, no stripping of assets, none of that," he said.

Maxxam attorney Frank Eisenhart told Shipe that the case was so old and ill-founded that it smacked of politics. He suggested that the government was pursuing Hurwitz at the bidding of "environmentalists who see this hearing as a way of getting at Maxxam's redwood trees."

Maxxam's stock fell 12.5 cents to $54.50 on the American Stock Exchange.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:32 - ID#426217.1)

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:33 - ID#215208)
Bart - Can you decode the ID numbers? If someone starts posting insulting, discourteous posts under a new handle, can you determine who it is, i.e. what the poster's normal handle is? This can also be a deterent to malicious posting.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:35 - ID#206190)
Big Money @ More Big Money
September 23, 1997
Smith Barney to pay $5.1 million in SEC settlement

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Smith Barney Inc., a unit of Travelers Group, agreed Tuesday to pay $5.1 million in lost fees and penalties to settle SEC charges stemming from a 1994 bond issue by Dade County, Fla.

Separately, the SEC charged former Smith Barney employee Michael Lissack with violating the anti-fraud provisions of the federal securities law, by manipulating the data used to calculate the money that the county would save by using the financing structure proposed by Smith Barney.

Lissack could not be reached for comment.

Smith Barney will pay Dade County about $2 million in cash and forego future remarketing fees of up to $3.125 million, the SEC said. It also agreed to pay a $250,000 fine.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:36 - ID#338452)
Spud Master

Hey Spud.... This number thing won't do what you're thinking....

LGB could post from his ISP and get 1111111 then post as Jolly etc and get 222222 then as whatever and get 3333333 HOWEVER, anyone else posting as LGB from a different ISP would get a different number than 1111111 OK.....All it does is show when a handle is being stolen from the original holder....It won't show us if LGB is Oldman or really even Jolly etc.....


(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:47 - ID#347457)
How is California these days?
Just leaving for a few days for San Francisco and LA. So westcoasters how is your hurricane season? Am I going to get wet? Keep the Kitco clean - I don't want to browse through 1000 abusive messages when I get back. I also hope that in between you'll push gold a bit higher will you? ... please..?! ;- )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:47 - ID#252312)
Allen ( USA ) : I like your reasoning. Even if Russia was at risk for civil war, I find it hard to believe that group-x ( whoever they are ) would manipulate the price of gold. It must, as you say, be a group with lots of assets ( gold ) , and it is interesting that the timing is in parallel with the deadline for the EMU. Perhaps Greenspan et al got some disinformation too! If you are right, this might shift the power back to europe. One piece that does not fit, why is the gold trading in England, and not in Europe, if you are right?
Incidentally there is, as far as I can tell only one JTFlick for the past 36 hours. I have not spotted any false posts. Isn't a relief that style of writing is often a dead giveaway in a false posting?
By the way, did you see my post on the suitcase nuclear weapons, yesterday or the day before? I'm concerned whether the stationary orbit scanning aperture gamma detectors can spot heavily shielded nuclear weapons. I would like to believe that the US surveillance satellites could see ship-borne or bus-borne shielded weapons. With what may be coming I sure hope so!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:48 - ID#206190)
Albright @ Japan Trade Imbalance
eptember 23, 1997
Albright warns trade deficit could be major issue

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Secretary of State Madeleine Albright warned her Japanese counterpart Tuesday that a rising trade imbalance could again become a "major issue" in bilateral ties, a senior official said.
During her first meeting with new Japanese Foreign Minister Keizo Obuchi, Albright "expressed our concern about the sharp increase in Japan's trade surplus in the aggregate, and about the large negative balance in our bilateral trade," said the official, who briefed reporters on condition of anonymity.

Albright, Obuchi and their defense counterparts Tuesday approved the first revision in the U.S.-Japan security alliance in nearly 20 years.

U.S. Commerce Secretary William Daley complained recently that "slow growth and the fact that the Japanese market is still too closed to imports are reasons why our trade imbalance with Japan is large."

(Tue Sep 23 1997 20:55 - ID#227238)
Bart: Love the numbers; but shouldn't they appear below a small B&W photo in full front and profile? ..... Suitable for display in post office lobby.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:06 - ID#206190)
Unions Worker's Policemen @ Hey,what's the big deal, Bankers do it.
September 23, 1997
Carey says he was victim of scandal, not a player

PITTSBURGH ( Reuter ) - A defiant Ron Carey said Tuesday he had nothing to do with the fund-raising scandal that hit his campaign for re-election as president of the Teamsters union, declaring he was "betrayed" by trusted aides.

In his most extensive meeting with reporters since three of his former campaign aides last week pleaded guilty to federal charges stemming from the scandal, Carey said he was a victim of the scheme along with the union and his campaign.

"You hire people that you trust, that you have confidence in, people who have the ability to get the job done," he said. "They devised a scheme certainly to rip off this union, rip me off in terms of my credibility and you can't control people."

The scandal spread to the AFL-CIO when the former campaign aides in their court appearances last week implicated labor federation Secretary-Treasurer Richard Trumka as a link in an effort to launder Teamster funds into Carey's campaign.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:24 - ID#261118)
@ the grand ball
WW....... A few new "world order" folks: Ted turner ( naw!! really? ) ,and his lovely wife ( she was cool as Barbarella ) , Vice Pres. Al Gore, former Pres. Gorbachev, etc..., hey they even had a big party togather to decide how to best rule, I mean, er.., help, the new world along little faster..

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:25 - ID#426220)
LBMA EXPOS: PART 3 (September 22, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
London Bullion Marketing Association is best described as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Daily gold trading NEARLY TWICE South Africas annual production:

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:26 - ID#280222)
Hi y'all! Wow, 1.00 up today. I may have trouble sleeping./// On a more serious side, does anyone know dec gold's 50 day average, and/or 50 day high? Thanks. ( the turtles would like to know )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:35 - ID#206190)
Vronsky @ Ask the question again
Date: Tue Sep 23 1997 13:10
6pak ( Vronsky @ Questions asked, Why no reply???? ) :
Vronsky::: I asked for a reply to my question, re: World Gold Council.
" Is the Gold-Eagle site a Marketing Tool, for the World Gold Council."
I would appreciate a reply. Thanks, Take Care.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:50 - ID#206190)
Helms-Burton Bill @ MAI = Cuba is being used as a chip
September 23, 1997
Helms-Burton could break MAI deal,Marchi says

OTTAWA ( CP ) - The U.S. should stop slapping sanctions on countries they don't agree with poltically or risk collapse of the multilateral agreement on investment ( MAI ) , Trade Minister Sergio Marchi said Tuesday.
Marchi told reporters such measures as the Helms-Burton law, which
punishes Canadian firms for doing business in Cuba, and other sanctions
could stand in the way of Canada signing the proposed deal.

"I don't think it is any state secret that unless the Americans change
positions on how they apply Helms-Burton as well as the sanctions on
Libya and Iran as well as some of the state-triggered mechanisms, that's
obviously a deal breaker in terms of the MAI," Marchi said.

The MAI, now under negotiation by the 29 member nations of the
Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development in Paris, is
intended to liberalize investment restrictions around the world.

It is widely supported among business groups in the industrialized world
but scorned by Canadian nationalist groups like the Council of Canadians
as a surrender of the sovereignty of individual countries.

Now Marchi appears to be using the MAI as a bargaining chip to force the Americans to either withdraw Helms-Burton or water it down so that it
no longer presents a threat to Canadian business.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 21:51 - ID#364147)
@ Mainlander
M.Graves: Welcome back!!....How bout dem CB Eagles....

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:00 - ID#252132)
@The Public Library
The Japanese Yen is up 108 on the overnight flash page!!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:11 - ID#338452)
Earl :


Let me be the first to initiate my own security procedure for the handle "FRONT" .... Paste this on the Post Office Wall !


(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:12 - ID#93139.1)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Divergence between FSAGX and FDPMX

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:12 - ID#269409)
Geez a guy leaves for a few days and look what happens, political debates extraordinaire, ID numbers tatoo'd on our foreheads, "Friend of Kitco" returned as "Disinformation" poster, and Puetz, I see you still expect to have me use that shoepolish on Nov. 1st. Does that mean we're "on again" for our 2 to 1 odds bet?? :- ) Market still crashing up today I see. New record on the Nasdaq. Hey i like this ID system, I was getting a little tired of the phony "LGB's" out there. No more "Hepcat" slurs to be directed my way. Platinum's flying high, go Platinum!!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:13 - ID#287279)
Remarks by
William J. McDonough President Federal Reserve Bank of New York
before the Annual Membership Meeting of the Institute of International Finance Hong Kong
September 21, 1997

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:25 - ID#212409)
So what happens if you post under a different handle? Just locks a different ID for that handle? I've seen several similar ( and I suspect phony ) posters here using all kinds of handles. You know, some guy named "Real Jerk", and "Rebrobate Jackass" and "Rolled Joint" and "Rabid Jackrabbit" and "Really Jealous". All those posters seem to have a similarity of style, pomposity, insecurity, and inability to engage in debate without resorting to "Recalcitrant Juvenile" remarks. Well this new ID system should help avoid such problems and reveal such posters as the "Rectal Jack$$$'s that they are!!!.......

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:26 - ID#287279)
FROM: Gary North's site

Matryn Emery's organization is studying the effects of y2k on New York City and London -- the West's financial centers. His is what I would call a mild scenario. When you read it, think of what happens in every major city on earth. It will not just be London. Note these two: "Banks: closed 1 December 1999-24 January 2000; Stock market: closed 20 December 1999-24 January 2000." If these institutions shut down for this long, what confidence will people have in banking on January 25? Some well-funded businesses can shut down for two months -- not many, but a few. But fractional reserve banks? Stocks? The recovery will take years -- maybe decades. What effect will such events have on people's emotions? On their faith in government?
Power supply: 75% available December 1999 and 50% January 2000
Hospitals: four weeks of emergency-only cover
Telecoms: 75% available 1-20 January 2000
Transport: 30 days disruption
Banks: closed 1 December 1999-24 January 2000
Stock market: closed 20 December 1999-24 January 2000
Education: schools closed for four weeks
Post [Office]: 10 days disruption

Dundee Maples
(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:32 - ID#216107)
Bart is always going the extra mile for this group. Thanks Bart. And thanks to all the serious posters on this exceptional site.

It definitely is getting interesting is trying to establish where/ when gold and gold stocks may make a move up. Like many of you I have some dry powder, and I am definitely looking to pick some point for a re-entry. The overall view is so incredibly negative, I feel that the bottom is close at hand, BUT I could be wrong.

With currency problems, trade issues, the constant legal attacks on the President, the increbile valuations of stocks, but most importantly is the fragile balance between the dollar, US stocks, and the US bond market that Rubin/Greenspan have maintained for so Looong ... lead me to believe that the odds are in favor of a gold rally.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:35 - ID#352177)
While discussing gold it is good to keep an eye on the dollar

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:35 - ID#252132)
@ Up and Down:
Yen - now +141. Just follow the bouncing Yen.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:44 - ID#426220)
Money Supply on a Tear: M2 & M3 surge sharply 10.2% & 12.6% annual rate. Greenspan warns Inflation is monetary phenomenon. VERY RELEVANT to Gold is Guest Guru Milhouse analysis:

Bart Kitner
(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:45 - ID#25867)
I'm glad to see everyone is enjoying their new numbers. We were going to use letters but you can never predict what they might haved spelled out.

Front is right about how it's supposed to work. The purpose is to authenticate the poster. It's impossible to produce a message using somebody else's handle and ID#.

It won't prevent anyone from making insulting remarks, but it will make it impossible to pretend the insulting remarks are originating from any of the regular contributors. Conversely, it will also impede anyone from attempting to cause a rude, abrasive, obnoxious person to seem like a nice guy.

This change won't solve all the issues but I'm willing to bet it'll keep the imposters at bay. If anybody is unhappy with the number ( s ) they've been assigned, vanity ID#s will be available for a moderate fee...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 22:54 - ID#316193)
Thanks Bart
Will there eventually be a look-up, numerically or alpha by handle?

Ted + Willy
(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:05 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
Dec. Gold up .30....Dollar down 1.88 ( 1.54% ) versus Yen @ 120.17....

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:06 - ID#411259)
..... ? .....


(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:12 - ID#338452)

( :- ) )

SHEK ... I quote you earlier:

Post [Office]: 10 days disruption

According to TED, that would be a vast improvement! That's a better record than our present "Public Service" gives !


(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:14 - ID#173274)
@the scene
ID #'s, what a concept! The only thing better would be 'fixed' handles/logins, but this can work. Who's gonna keep the list?

Gusto Oro
(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:16 - ID#377235)
You can tell I'm a gold nut--the other day I had to chase a squirrel out of the house.

Lan Man
(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:17 - ID#320108)
@Deal Me In!
I call and raise you one $20 gold piece!

Bart: Is it possible to use the IP address? Could come in handy...

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:18 - ID#57172.1)
@are_there_two_Sir X Goldsmiths?
Lurker: Now I more confused than ever - I used Alta Vista to look up Sir William Goldsmith- nothing. However, Sir James Goldsmith brings up alot,
including a Mar 1996 refence in Euomoney about George Soros and Sir James Goldsmith triggering the April 1993 gold rally. Are there two Sir James Goldsmiths, the multimillionaire gold trader, and the philantropist? Unfortunately it would not be the first time that one person could wear two different hats. It is still possible that we are getting disinformation, but less likely, I'm afraid.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:35 - ID#227238)
Front: LOL. That was a good 'un but not a full frontal view. Then again, I suppose it's natural to favor the best side. .... If there is one. ;- )

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:39 - ID#173274)
@the scene
JTFlick -- It would not be better if the number were based on our E-mail address. I post under two E-mail addresses depending on the time of day and weekend. I don't know what Barts algorythm is but I hope it does keep uniqueness. Personally, I think a real login would be better, complete with a password. Can't fake that out, but this may be a decent step in the right direction. We'll see how it works out before 'complaining'! Thanks Bart!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:46 - ID#320102)
James, not William
JTFlick: I re-read the article and it is Sir JAMES Goldsmith. This article also mentioned the Trilateralist. I wasn't sure who this group was so I did a search and came up with the following Abstract which you might find interesting.

If there truly are "World-Leaders" trying to keep the price of gold down then my guess would be it is to stabalize the world currencies and prevent a flight to gold. With all of the currency devaluations as well as the upcoming EMU, a strong gold market would only exacerbate the situation. I really beleive they are doing their best to prevent a worldwide financial meltdown.

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:49 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bart -- Vanity IDs, Heh? Hmmm!

(Tue Sep 23 1997 23:50 - ID#411259)
..... Me # ? .....

Strad -
"conflating" I had to look that one up.

Wackie Boy -
Where's the earring? It looked good.
Sold a lot of PL today, couldn't seem to get through 441.

Bart -
Do you ever feel like your going to have to pull over the van until the kids in the back stop misbehaving? You are a wise parent