Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 00:09 - ID#280222)
ALL: Did you notice dec gold's open interest is declining? From what I can figure out; declining oi + increasing price = dropping shorts. This could get interesting in Oct. Oh yeah, #830522 please report to the colonel's office.........

(Thu Sep 25 1997 00:28 - ID#280222)
Four 2 s. Pretty good.////////////////Hey, Steve Peutz, you out there? What do you think about thurs & fri?? //////APH: sell sign - elucidate? /////D.A. any more thoughts on OJ?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 00:39 - ID#280222)
RON: Looks like you're gonna get wet ala Nora./////////AURIC, SHEK, & JOHN W: Today was a pretty nice day here in Indiana wasn't it? Could use about 90 more.................../////////// Hi TORT!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 00:56 - ID#389196)

I trade ABX and if this rally could continue the chart has the look of a
Elliot wave 2 with Elliot wave 3 just beginning.. 73% of Elliot wave 2's
end at approx. 50 to 60% retracements of EW 1. ABX has just completed
this and is beginning to move up. If this can continue then the bottom
may have been established. This is just my short term analysis with
a little optimism thrown in, but at this juncture, it looks possible.

chart of abx:

(Thu Sep 25 1997 01:22 - ID#255151)

Savage--Damn! Your four 2's beats my full house! Gorgeous weather, indeed! Been off for a few days and spent most of it outside! Someone posted a reference to Ed Hyman Jr. article in the last few days. Anyone have that site's address?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:00 - ID#255151)

Speaking of weather--Here is the latest satellite image of Nora. This is an awesome picture!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:03 - ID#429254)
Notagoldbug and Savage
I am encouraged by the action in gold and gold stocks.Good volume and
constructive looking charts and lots of evidence that there is ton of shorts out there.
RYO ,which I have been buying lately,has over a million and it too looks
like it is entering a third wave up.I wouldn't wanna be short the golds
at the moment.Cheers.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:04 - ID#255284)
Deal me in..
Morning all..Rain, so much rain, local flooding...ducks OK. local flock including the famous Hopalong Casserole ( poor dear had one leg bit by an eel in the pond ) are going forth and if there was a golden goose amongst them.. actually Hoppy is the only duck, so the four drakes of the home flock, plus one wild Paradise Duck who digs a party and who was here last year too, are all, ahhem laying into Hoppy.. Hoppy being disadvantaged in the leg department doesn't seem to run away as fast as she could, if she but tried.

And what's the point of all this suffering? Why, Entropy? Just to remind Hemispherically speaking, that autumn and spring occur simultaneously, and I noticed that someone tried to rig the cards while I slept Auric? You too must sleep.... He He :-}}

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:08 - ID#255151)

Here is the place to go for nearly real time hurricane and other storm info. Easy to use and has killer graphics.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:09 - ID#429254)
Auric.Powerfull storm;pretty picture.Thanks.
I think the shorts in the gold market are gonna feel like they've
been hit by such a storm before long.I'm sure Cherakee could put this

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:18 - ID#255284)
Easy, Easy, Catchee Monkey
Allan your 1803 last night. Again, right with you, as I was when you defended the right of free speach.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:18 - ID#255151)

aurator--I didn't do a good enough job of it, eh? Thought me full house would win! The way I have it is that nomercy has a 4-high straight flush, Savage has four 2's, and there is a 7-over full house out there! Now, how does that "Gambler" song go?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:37 - ID#255151)

aurator--Re "Hoppy"--I think I've got the problem figured out, mate. Everytime those drakes head for poor Hoppy, ya gotta quit yelling "DUCK"! Naturally, she turns to look at you, and she is then "DUCKED"!

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:38 - ID#244209)
Jack assumes I care - read the handle again.


(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:44 - ID#252127)
The Swiss again

Has anyone here considered that Switzerland the last bastion of hard money; with the reputation to standoff from the problems about its boundries is now being castigated as an illegal channel of fund transfers in addition to other infamous deeds; and by who, the fiat powers of the world ( I read it as NWO ) .
When it came to the funding of Hitler's power in Nazi Germany, ask someone with more knowledge than this question? What NY and UK banks performed that deed?
It follows; that today, this last bastion of economic freedom is being hit by huge monetary suits -by the suites- supported by what is considered by msny as the free press.

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:49 - ID#244209)
Question for Eager Student

Eager Student - If your first name is Jim, can you do the
hokey pokey in Denver?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 02:56 - ID#255285)
@ a sneaky shuffle of the cards when they're all asleep. shhh.
Nick Is there a Nick in the house? How fairs Aus gold mate?
Auric: can you give me latitude and longitude of your town? I'll fire up an old mac and see what you will see this evening your time.
BTW Mac users There is an excellent little program called Marco Polo from Mainstay that allows you to print directly from the Net into an archive. the text in a print file is then indexed, so retrievable, the images are also stored in libraries remarkably compressed, have not seen an update since 1995// groovy what we do..

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:14 - ID#244209)

I'm surprised so many people are interested in weapons.

Badger - I own an HK-P7, 9mm squeeze-cocker, the first year
production. A great gun, a mediocre caliber. S&W model 25-2.
Two Colts. Two Hi-Powers. S&W model 947. What else? Oh,
yeah, Star PD. Taurus .357. Marlin 1894. Etc.

Over the past ten years - Swapped my Ruger Mini-14 for an AR-15.
Swapped that for an HK-91 ( 308 ) , swapped that for HK-93 ( 223 ) .

My main is now a Savage 110FP in .308. : ) Wish I had the AR-15
out of the lot.

Although, now that I think about it, it only makes sense that
a gold site would have a higher-than-normal proportion of
gun owners.

Dang. Now that I think about it, I guess I'm ready for business
when the Crash finally shows up. : )

Idaho allows full-auto, I was at a full-auto shoot about four years
ago. I wish I owned a Jati. : ) Heck, even an HK-MP5. : )

Badger - I knowingly paid a premium for owning Eagles. I knew it
when I bought. Don't care. I consider our eagles to be crash
insurance. If the system really does crack up, and gold goes
to $2K like I expect, that will pay down my mortgage
completely, thus enabling us to live on one PART-TIME salary
if necessary. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:15 - ID#429254)
Swiss Banks are corporations.Corporations do not,it seems , have any
obligation to be moral.They are,in fact,amoral.So moving and handling money
for Nazis,who are killing people,is neither here nor there for them.To expect otherwise
is to be mistaken.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:17 - ID#255285)
@ turning ducks into gold.....
Auric re Hoppy I have a complete series of *Destroyer Duck* if anyone is interesting in purchasing some comics... excellent condition..
enough of advertising, lets go back to regular programming..;- ) )

The Peanut Man
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:25 - ID#372274)
"The Strongest Man in the World"

Who Cares: Make sure you don't trip over that HK-P7 without the heat shield, if you do, you'll have a sure case of roasted nuts.
Remember only the Peanut Man whistles while he roasts his nuts, thus my title "The Strongest Man in the World"

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:28 - ID#244209)
Corporations Amoral

An interesting thought - Why is honor ( or morality ) a desirable

I gave this quite a bit of thought two-three years ago. Why?

It's not enough to say "because it makes society tolerable", etc.

You need to DERIVE the value of it. To date, my best answer is
( yup, you guessed it ) a function of information. : )

Because HONOR makes a person PREDICTABLE. Predictability has
value because investments can be made with minimum risk over
the long term. "Investments" can be expanded to include
friendships, marriage, siblings, etc.

Haven't made much more headway on this one, though.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:32 - ID#429254)
I grew up hunting,mostly big game.When it was my turn to kill the
buck i didn't.Guns are made to kill;where's the pleasure.Maybe someone
who collects guns can explain to me what I haven't gotten so far...

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:32 - ID#244209)
Dang. I'm impressed.

Peanut - I'm impressed. There aren't many people that know the
different models. Tried to buy the original PSP but they had
already been updated. : )

Now. Tell me what caliber the S&W 947 is. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:36 - ID#255285)
For the Gastronomer....
Mike Sheller, by the time you read this i shall be looong gone. my mispel @ 2:18 *speach* was actually a neologism in your honour.

That's right, a *speach* is a tasty, as in peachy,
*speech* as in orator, rave about gold, as in aurator.

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:39 - ID#244209)

Because guns are power. You'd an idiot to choose the gold over
the machine gun. Uncle Sam sure doesn't choose gold over guns,
why should we?

Read James Davidson, _The Great Reckoning_, re: megapolitics.

Besides, guns are as much fun to handle and feel as gold coins. : )

P.S. I don't hunt. Never have. Don't really want to. But I
*have* defended myself twice with firearms while living in L.A.,
both times against agressors who clearly meant me harm, and
without a shot being fired.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:39 - ID#429254)
Who cares?You ask a good question.
Perhaps morality matters to the individual because that individual
wants to feel safe.A preposterous proposition at best.No individual
is atypical.Hence morality has a predictive quality about it.Cheers.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:43 - ID#349259)
Where can I see Dec comex gold options quotes without "subscribing" to something I don't want? I just want to see how my CCZ330C's are doing after 3 or 4 days. Please help me if you can. Post on KITCO, I'll watch for it. Maxt

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:46 - ID#429254)
Who Cares.Thanks for your response to my question!
I was a little bit afraid that it would be construed as insincere.I guess
that it becomes a matter of circumstance and being a cabinet maker
I can certainly appreciate fine workmanship and steel.Cheers.

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:47 - ID#244209)
Moral Relativity

Most of the moral relativist will deny it, but there are several
basic properties of virtually successful cultures -

Caring for your offspring. Not murdering people. Honesty.

Since organizations tend to favor "honor/morality", it stands
to reason that "honor/morality" confere some type of advantage
to the *organization*, not just the individual. For some reason,
I keep thinking of the USMC. : )

It's related to another axis - axis of diversity versus conformity.
You get advantages/disadvantages from both extremes - ingenuity
for diversity, reduced conflict and communication costs with
conformity. U.S. versus Japan.

I imagine that honor trades higher along the conformity axis,
hence it's reduced value in our modern times in the United

A great book that changed how I think ( you can tell because I
have it right here on my desk : ) ) -

_Cultures and Organizations: Software of the Mind_, by
Geert Hofstede, McGraw Hill, ISBN 0-07-707474-2.

I highly recommend it.

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:52 - ID#244209)
A cabinet maker

It doesn't matter. I don't usually misconstrue comments, I've
been reading too long, and quite frankly, the hostility and
brutal honesty of the Net is one of its strong points to me.

We blew $4K on cabinets last year, I never realized women were
so hot on them. My wife is nuts about "whitewashed maple". : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:52 - ID#316193)
WHO CARES -- Our guns and our gold somehow represent "freedom". ( It
gets a little too complicated to explain to someone that doesn't already
understand this. ) I'd expect that a high percentage of goldbugs are also NRA members. Wouldn't you agree?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:57 - ID#429254)
Relative Morality
Wha Cares.Thanks again for responding.I'm gonna save that.
Highly sucessfull cultures do share a common set of absolutist values and
don't seem to regard morality as anything like debatable.Excuse me I may be confusing
even myself.I'm gonna read those books and get back to you.Cheers

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 03:59 - ID#244209)
Gold and Guns represent freedom.

I'd have to agree. Definitely. I never thought about the two
of them in conjunction before, until tonight. They're both
tangible symbols of power. Interesting. I never owned gold
until 1994. I'll admit, I got a kick out of clinking the
coins together, I know it sounds childish.

But I've owned at least one firearm since... okay, that's
58 + 14 = 72. 1972. Never had any interesting in gold until
'91-2, when I began reaching Donald's conclusions, that gold
is likely to lose less relative value than paper assets, be there
inflation or deflation.

Those coins really do something to you. : ) I'm bummed we keep
everything in safe deposit now. : ) And silver, it's just not
the same. : ) Dang, I'd *really* like to be buying platinum now.

I attended several 10th Amendment / Sovereignty meetings from
93-96. There's definitely a confluence of guns, gold and
Christianity there, which I suppose ties this all back to
honor and morals now. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:03 - ID#429254)
Who Cares.Yes it's true that women love cabinets.I think perhaps
they see them the way some men see tools and guns;as a symbol
of a perfect world.You're obviously descreet to support the project.Cheers

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:08 - ID#244209)

It's not a matter of being discreet, it's a matter of knowing
my wife. : ) That Marlin 1894 and Taurus .375 aren't mine, you
know, I just use them sometimes. : )

Besides, my wife suffered such a pretty lonely life for the
better part of twenty years. It sounds callous, but I got the
deal of the century on her. Buy low, sell high. For some dang
reason, nobody ever wanted her. She's a little different, but
heck, she's loyal beyond reason, funny, sexy. I just have to
put up with making important decisions based upon the sum of
street numbers and phases of the moon. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:11 - ID#429254)
Let's see... being a CANADIAN I can own gold,which I do,but feel moraly
constrained from owning a gun;however am I free.I've always admired
AMERICANS for there realistic view of government.Because you own guns,which
the government does also,you can defend your freedom.N'est pas...Cheees

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:11 - ID#244209)

Gotta go, thanks for an interesting evening. I rise and shine
in four hours.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:12 - ID#335190)
Encryption @ Back Door rejected by Commerce Committee
September 24, 1997
House Commerce panel rejects encryption controls

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - The House Commerce Committee Wednesday rejected a far-reaching proposal requiring all data scrambling products to include a backdoor allowing government access to otherwise secure computer files and communications.
On a vote of 35-16, members of the panel voted against an amendment from Mike Oxley, Republican of Ohio, to impose such controls.

Who Cares
(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:14 - ID#244209)
Dang, but there's a lot of Canadians.

Greg - my wife is Canadian. : ) Born outside of Hamilton. Man,
that place has dirty water. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:16 - ID#335190)
Bonds, all-time global low @ Japan
Japan bond yield breaks below 1.9 pct in Tokyo

TOKYO, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - The yield of the key Japanese long cash bond fell below 1.9 percent in Tokyo on Thursday,and traders said the yield may be on its way for a try at an all-time global low.
The yield of the key 10-year 182nd cash Japanese government bond ( JGB ) was standing at a record low of 1.895 percent in afternoon trade.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:23 - ID#255285)
O.K. Corral

BB:- )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:24 - ID#335190)
Not a scrap of law-abiding spirit @ Japan's brokerages, (Suits.)
September 25, 1997
FOCUS-Japan prosecutors raid fourth Japan broker

TOKYO, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - A high-profile racketeer payoff scandal netted the last of Japan's "Big Four" brokerages on Thursday when prosecutors raided Nikko Securities over suspected illegal payments.

Japanese media on Thursday expressed their usual disdain for the brokerages' failure to mend their ways after the 1991 affair, which prompted then finance minister Ryutaro Hashimoto to resign his post to atone for his ministry's lax supervision.

Now prime minister, Hashimoto is often said to harbour a grudge against the industry and against Nomura in particular.

"What has been made clear from this series of that the ( brokerage ) executives have not even a scrap of law-abiding spirit," opined financial daily Nihon Keizai Shimbun.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:26 - ID#429254)
Who Cares.Surviving Hamilton ,in itself,is a feat.There's obviously
stength there.Hamilton is a true test of a human being ...but will we survive
this market...I mean how absolute can you get.Cheers

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:29 - ID#335190)
Guns @ Duck, in coming messages.
Duck! Right on! Good Morning. : ) : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:31 - ID#429254)
The duck will emerge!Very interesting note on japanese yields.There's
not a lotta time left for the paper people...if you believe in Time.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:36 - ID#335190)
China @ Get lots of Paper
Friday, September 19, 1997
Dateline Hong Kong

Tell the prospectus printers to get more paper

Great Chinese sell-off will create victims, millionaires
By TOM GRIMMER ---The Financial Post
One of the more bizarre realities of the late 20th century is that when the world's largest ( and one of the few remaining ) Communist parties holds a congress, among the most excited of onlookers are Western investment bankers. Weird? You bet. Illogical? Not in the least.

Even if China was capitalized at 50%, that's half of ... a lot. Tens of billions of dollars of new equity, year after year, for years. And the
economy is growing at 10%. Call the prospectus printers and tell them to get lots of paper.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:37 - ID#429254)
Ducks Unlimited
Forget about bulls and bears... pay attention to the ducks.They KNOW
and they're gonna nibble at the gold bear till there ain't no bear

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:42 - ID#335190)
Rubin @ China -News Agreement
September 25, 1997
Rubin hails impending foreign news deal in China

BEIJING ( Reuter ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin Thursday hailed an agreement which he said China's official news agency was putting together on regulating foreign financial news organizations.

He gave no details of the content of the agreement, or what form it would take. But he hinted it would be favorable to news organisations operating in China whose business had appeared to be threatened
by new controls. Reuters Holdings Plc, Dow Jones-Telerate and Bloomberg LP are among news organizations affected.

The new controls were widely criticized by foreign news organisations and Western government officials as a restriction on the free flow of economic information.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:43 - ID#403267)
Greg: I rreally enjoyed your exchange with Who Cares tonight. seems like we all have some things in common. BTW, to explain the hunting question I would suggest reading Robert Ruark, "The Horn of the Hunter", or "The Old Man and The Boy" or "Use Enough Gun". Some are hard to find but a library may have copies. You still may not agree on the blood in blood sports but you will likely understand and appreciate the view. Before anyone else thinks I am a blood thirsty slob hunter I am not, I pull the trigger on more stocks than game these days, but read some of the above and understand. Also, ah well, I could write my own book, I'm off topic and have to run to work. Best regards.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:49 - ID#423116)
Big Brother
6pak: Your 04:12 on encryption - if free speech is to be preserved and Big Brother ( Heil Hitler ) to be kept out of our lives in the U. S. re the net, congress has got to control itself in this area. The administration isn't all wrong, in that law enforcement must have a way of handling their job re the net, but when the choice is free speech or law enforcement "rights", free speech has to win. Chris Cox, an up and coming Repubican in the House leadership is in the center of this, and on the committee, and fortunately on the right side of the issue. If the administration totally gets its way, the reasons my ancestors came over here will be abrogated big time. Thanks for the Reuters post. ( You know how us Libertarians like our freedoms! )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:52 - ID#423116)


(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:52 - ID#335190)
Asia @ Information.
September 25, 1997
Curse of Asia's dollar peg ignored at IMF meeting

HONG KONG, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - One of the most deep-rooted causes of Asia's currency upheaval -- the currencies' close links to the volatile U.S. dollar -- was ignored at this week's meeting of the World Bank and IMF, senior economists said.

September 25, 1997
IMF/World Bank leave questions hanging over debt

HONG KONG, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Fundamental questions about lifting the debt burden on the world's poorest nations were left hanging over the World Bank and International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) annual meetings, which ended on Thursday.

September 25, 1997
Mauled Asian tigers get ready to growl again

HONG KONG, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Asia's tiger economies, whose recent savaging became the cautionary tale of the annual World Bank/IMF meetings, predict they will emerge the better for the pain.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 04:53 - ID#429254)
Roebear.Thanks and yes I'll read these books,Thanks for responding.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:00 - ID#255151)

Go here and look at the Storm97 headlines of the
last several days. Nora and El Nino dominate the
headlines. SouthWest to get drenched in a few days.
The effects of El Nino are only starting, and most
climatologists agree we have not seen the worst. I also came across the Indonesian forest fire story update in Nando. There is fear that the fires could ignite the peat in the ground in these forests. That would be much worse than the Kuwaiti oil fires after Desert Storm.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:10 - ID#335190)
Goldbug @ 4:49
Yes, Free Speech, it is important, so is freedom. Libertarian's do not
have freedom cornered, many other's, also, value freedom.

I am not Libertarian, just a concerned citizen, that has nothing else to
associate with, other then to be a good citizen, not a member of any
group. Just want the right to contribute, and provide for my family.

Many group's have a mind set, if you are a member, you are on side, if
you are not a member you are off side. Yet, all group's are after, such
people as me, to be supportive, or to be attacked. All group's demand
that every person be marked, as to being this or that. Division of the
people serves what, or whom. I expect, it never serves the people.
Life eh! Take care.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:37 - ID#335190)
Rubin @ China = USofA Citizen policy or the Federal Reserve policy???
September 25, 1997
FOCUS-U.S-China ties key to world stability - Rubi

BEIJING, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, visiting Beijing ahead of a U.S.-China summit, said on Thursday that strong relations between the two countries were crucial to world stability and prosperity.

"Building strong relations is absolutely critical to global prosperity and stability," Rubin said in a speech to students at People's University in Beijing.

"The right lesson is that if you have good policy you have confidence, if you have confidence you have stability," he said.

"We will have our differences. Let me mention one area of disagreement in particular: human rights," Rubin said. "Respect for human rights leads to more open debate, more vigorous exchange of ideas, and also in our view promotes economic development."

"China would benefit enormously from having in China the expertise, the capital, the experience and international networks that international financial institutions would bring with them," he said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:37 - ID#386245)

If you want to attend a barbecue and have a good time there are a few simple rules you should follow:

1 ) Make sure you have your wiener on a stick well before the fire is lit.
2 ) Do not put your wiener into a raging fire. Wait until the fire has died down.
3 ) When the fire is flickering gently and most campers have lost interest, prepare to put your weenie in the fire.
4 ) Just as soon as a few of the bigger campers put their weenies in the fire--get yours in quickly. Do not put all of your weenies in the fire at once.
5 ) If the bigger campers pull their weenies out of the fire before they are cooked---pull yours out immediately!! If the fire gets too hot you should also pull your weenie out. You can put your weenie back in when the fire settles down a bit.
6 ) If your weenie is cooking along nicely, put another couple of weenies in the fire.
7 ) When all of the other campers see how well your weenies are cooking, they will soon come and join you. Get ready to pull your weenies out.
8 ) When every camper in the area is running to the fire with weenie in hand---pull all of your weenies out of the fire!!
9 ) Now sit down and have a nice meal while all of the other campers fight over weenie space. Ignore them, as many will drop their weenies into the fire.
10 ) Even if you are still hungry, do not rush back to the fire with another weenie. Sit back, relax and enjoy yourself. REMEMBER--there will always be another fire, but you can't always replace a burned weenie!!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:49 - ID#26793)
PILLBRAIN: John Murphy was only on for a couple of minutes. He showed a chart of the XAU and pointed out where it had broken trendline. He felt it was for real and made positive comments about all gold stocks, not any particular one.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:52 - ID#26793)
NOTAGOLDBUG: Thanks for that ABX chart. With this post I am trying to modify that site for BGO.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 05:58 - ID#26793)
NOTAGOLDBUG: That didn't work. Must be a subscriber only site.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:10 - ID#335190)
Is this a sign ????? @ Wall Street :) :) :)
September 25, 1997
Dozen hurt in New York financial district fire

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - An early-morning fire injured a dozen people and caused major damage to a 12-story apartment building a few blocks from Wall Street Thursday, authorities said.

Thirty-two fire engines and 121 firefighters responded to the blaze at 130 Water Street, a spokesman from the New York Fire Department said. The fire was yards from the offices of Goldman Sachs, Prudential Securities and other firms.

The spokesman, Tim Murphy, said that of the 12 people injured in the fire, four were firemen. They had sprains and cuts, none of them serious.
The other eight people -- mostly residents of the building -- would be treated for smoke inhalation, he said.

The fire was classified as a two-alarm fire, which is "higher than your average fire," according to Murphy. Firefighters contained the fire within two hours after it was reported.

None of the surrounding buildings were damaged in the blaze and traffic is expected to be able to more freely through the area by morning, Murphy said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:10 - ID#432148)
6pak, ur 05:10 - Agree with everything you say. I don't agree with Libertarians on everything. I am a great believer that everyone that can should work ( except us retirees of course ;- ) , and if jobs are not available then the government should make one before anyone gets welfare. A true Libertarian would disagree with that. I sure agree with your comments on groups, especially political groups. So, to change the subject - is gold on a roll? Notice it is down 25 cents on EBN. I still think it will take a big event to see it reverse for real. My guess is a blow up in the middle east. One would think cousins could get along better.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:17 - ID#386245)
Steven Jon Kaplan--"To achieve a true upside breakout, gold must break and hold above its chart breakdown point of $326.50, then rally sharply in really heavy volume." "... the current attempt to complete a triple bottom is an important short-term trend for the yellow metal".

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:22 - ID#430205)
Taiwan gold sales
Taiwan CB gold sale rumors. Looks like Rubin is stepping up the pressure.

TOCOM gold futures end up despite Taiwan rumour

TOKYO, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Yen-based Tokyo gold futures closed mostly higher on Thursday due to a weaker yen and a
firmer New York market overnight, with participants ignoring rumours that Taiwan may sell gold reserves, traders said.

An unconfirmed rumour swept through the New York market on Wednesday that Taiwan's central bank may sell part of
the 422 tonnes it is said to hold in its reserves.

``The rumour had little impact on TOCOM gold prices, as we cannot find a reason why Taiwan has to sell its gold
reserves,'' one broker said. Benchmark August gold futures ended up 12 yen per gram at 1,236 yen.

Other gold futures ranged from five yen per gram lower to 14 yen higher. Spot gold was quoted at $323.15/55 an ounce at
0712 GMT, against $323.40/90 in New York on Wednesday.

Taiwanese traders said on Thursday there was no evidence to confirm rumours about possible sales by Taiwan's central

The dollar's rebound to above 120 yen encouraged trading firms to buy gold futures, while individual investors sold futures
to take profits, traders said.

Platinum futures closed sharply higher, reflecting firmer spot prices and concerns over supplies, traders said. Benchmark
August ended up 26 yen per gram at 1,533 yen.

Other platinum futures ranged from 14 yen to 38 yen higher.

February and April futures soared due mainly to short-covering from investors, traders said.

``Investors with shorts had no choice but to cover their positions to avoid further losses amid the market's firm trend,'' one
broker said.

Palladium futures also advanced, led by stronger platinum prices. Benchmark August closed up eight yen per gram at 694
yen, while other contracts ranged from three to nine yen up.

Silver ranged from 1.0 yen per 10 grams lower to 2.7 yen up. Benchmark August closed up 1.1 yen at 183.9 yen.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:24 - ID#26793)
NICK@C: Hi Nick, here is a nice quote from Steven Jon Kaplan:

"A number of precious metals analysts have insisted that gold must go down since central
banks hold so much of it. This is like saying that since mutual funds hold so many stocks"
you have to be bearish on the stock market.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:25 - ID#386245)
Steven Jon Kaplan--"To achieve a true upside breakout, gold must break and hold above its chart breakdown point of $326.50, then rally sharply in really heavy volume." "... the current attempt to complete a triple bottom is an important short-term trend for the yellow metal".

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:34 - ID#386245)
Mornin' Donald. My computer ain't workin very well this evening ( morning ) . Post a comment and have to reload before I can see anything. I think Ted's server has found it's way to OZ. Wake up, TED!!! There's lots of money to be made out there!! Tryin' the kayak out next week. Whaddahyadowhenyaturnovermate??
Aurat...where are you???BAAAAA!!Ain't bedtime yet in Kiwiland!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:36 - ID#26793)
The Japanese banks do not have more capital to lend to the private sector. The Japanese banking system is broke.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:42 - ID#335190)
Goldbug23 @ 06:10
Great comments, thanks for the interest. Gold, is an international
currency, as such, it is under strict control. For very respectable
reasons. The World central banks, have control of paper money, and now
want absolute control of the democratic power of the world.

I expect that the money life tree, will be cut down, by the fact
that such power is uncontrollable, no interest group in the history of
man, has been able to harness that absolute control. Give them their due,
they sure as hell have down a great job over the last 50 years.

I expect that Russia, not the middle east, will be the chain saw. The
Russian's use a phrase, Mother Russian, they will protect a Mother, it is
basic to man. In the short term weeks, I expect gold to go up, then pull
back. The various world economic forces, are not going to roll over, just
yet, power is an ever moving force. The issue is not paper money as it is
power. Gold is the weapon of international power, we gold bugs, will be
the last to know, and the average citizen, is completely in the dark. By
design, of course. Russian, is the wild card, a wounded power. Yet, still
a power force in the world. Russia is cut off from aid, considering all
the currency difficulties in the world. The stock market drops bad, then
the USofA, will need aid. What then ?? Take care.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:46 - ID#26793)
U.S. Treasury real yields are at an historic high and are going higher. The U.S. Treasury long bond will yield 7.25% to 7.5% by year end 1997.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:48 - ID#365216)
the THREE G's
God, Guns, and Gold ( in that order ) are the keys to maintaining
our economic and personal freedoms. Can't wait for the ATF to
process my Form 4's so I can take possession of my shorty M-16.
Also own Colt AR15A3, Benelli Super 90M3, Glock 17, Sig P225,
S&W Airweight .38 special, and H&K USP .45 with UTL.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:51 - ID#26793)
6PAK: They always said that if you hang around Wall Street long enough you are sure to get burned.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:53 - ID#26793)
TED: Where are you? Busy shoveling snow or picking coconuts?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 06:54 - ID#386245)
General--I'll be danged careful not to go trick--or--treatin' at your house.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:00 - ID#386245)
Ted!!! This insolence must stop!! As soon as you show up, report to the duty monitor's room to have your wrist slapped with a ruler three times. There is no excuse for tardiness!! ( Too many Fosters the night before being an exception ) . Now report to duty as I want to know the temperature in Nova Scrotum!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:01 - ID#26793)
Gold ignores rumors of sales by the Central Bank of Taiwan and heads higher.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:04 - ID#26793)
Ho-Hum. Brazilian currency lower again.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:04 - ID#316193)
GENERAL -- Glad that you appreciate fine weapons. Wish the Army had
done a lot more for us weapons wise during Korea days. We had all those
left over WWII Garands, BARs, pineapples, and such. The only improvement
I can recall, we had 3.5's instead of 2.8 Bazookas. Wish you'd been
around earlier.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:08 - ID#26793)
High inflation figures send Mexican peso lower.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:13 - ID#26793)
Taiwan denies it has any "immediate" plans to sell any of its 13.5 million ounces of gold.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:16 - ID#26793)
Currency crisis causes weak demand and falling prices for aluminum, copper and zinc.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:23 - ID#26793)
13th century gold coin and other gold artifacts found while digging foundation for a new house in India.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:45 - ID#316193)
GENERAL -- Would kinda like to know your dog tag number. Here's
mine: US54ll7l32, NG54ll7l32, AR54ll7l32, AF54ll7l32.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:48 - ID#333131)
Don't miss the WSJ editorial today on IMF and bailouts of the future.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:50 - ID#26793)
Malaysia's Rating Outlook Cut to `Negative' by S&P

Standard & Poor's Corp. cut its long-term ratings outlook on Malaysia to ``negative'' from
``stable,'' calling the country's credit growth ``unsustainable.'' The credit ratings body said it sees a
growing possibility of a downgrade in the country's long-term rating, which it affirmed at ``AA+''.
The agency said the boom in Malaysia's investment, now more than 40 percent of gross domestic
product, is unsustainable. S&P also said it sees the country's bank asset quality deteriorating in

(Thu Sep 25 1997 07:52 - ID#26793)
Kia Will Ask Court to Freeze Debts for Nine More Units

South Korea's Kia Group said it will ask a Seoul court to freeze debt payments for nine more units,
as it tries to avert the country's largest bankruptcy ever. The move would bring the number of units
under so-called court mediation to 13. Kia, the country's eighth-largest industrial group, or chaebol,
is struggling under $10 billion of debt and has until Monday to avoid being declared bankrupt by its
creditors. The nine units include Kia Precision Works and Kia Heavy Industries Co., a Kia
spokesman said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:04 - ID#26793)
Russia says its economic decline is over.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:06 - ID#333131)
Can anyone beat four 3's? If not, you can all pay up with one good link.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:14 - ID#26793)
CARL: I fold.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:15 - ID#261118)
@ Who Cares'n other pistol packers
Ditto your thoughts on firearms; here in Texas were still in good ownership shape and yes, were allowed full auto. Do your family a favor and save some of that gold for an electrified eight foot fence around your house and a small chopper to get to and from work; God bless the "havenots" but they will want what we've got.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:18 - ID#18970)
Why would the European CBs sell gold if they want a strong Euro given the Aussie currency drop of over 10% after they sold their gold.
Think fast Bobby!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:18 - ID#25588)
Notagoldbug - My focus right now is day trading the S&P. I really like the idea of the electronic trading thru the computer and the RT Get could really enhance my performance I think. Yesterday I called to reverse my longs when the market hit 970 i got filled at 966. Like you I think the cost is high and you don't even own the program. Plus I'd have to upgrade my computer from the P-90 I have now.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:21 - ID#364147)
@ Nick+Donald
Damn Nick,ya woke me up mate!!....What do I do when i tipover...I DIE!...never learned the Alaskan a fatalist!...S+P futures up 2.60...Donald: Mornin! and brrrrrrrrrr.....hit a low of 36 ( 3 Nick! ) degrees last night and it's currently 50 ( 10 Nick ) cocoNUTS almost froze...brrrrrr....S+P futures up 3.05....time for more java! Durable goods # and Jobless claims # due out in 9 minutes!!!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:27 - ID#364147)
@ Tort
Mornin Tort!! I liked yer joke yesterday so don't let the nay sayers try + quiet you...maybe it's time ta kick some ass!...Comex gold up .60

The Major
(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:41 - ID#372425)
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog's back.
It's time for all good men to come to the aid of the party.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:41 - ID#364147)
@ Durable Goods #
Durable Goods # came in much stronger ( up 2.7% ) than expected and as a result the Long Bond is now down 14 ticks and the S+P futures are only up .15

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:42 - ID#22956)
Mornin' all
Orders placed, still dark, I'm tired, back to snooze. Hi Ted. Can$ up 16ticks...WOW... ;- )


i don't own any guns, can I still play here? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:47 - ID#411149)
Does anybody make any sense out of CV Shaw's analysis???

Tally Ho

For some reason I got my date and submit button back. Thanks Bart!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:48 - ID#364147)
@ Waco
Mornin play...."Loonie" soarin like an Eagle! Dodgers suk...From the WSJ:SILVER: Precious metals futures were led higher by
silver. In trading on the Comex division of the New York
Mercantile Exchange, silver for September delivery rose
5.8 cents to $4.711 a troy ounce. Gold futures also rose.
Also, silver is not hurt like gold is by central-bank selling
pressure. Silver prices have been helped by steady
industrial demand. Meanwhile, analysts note that demand
for silver in Europe has increased, sending dealers to the
U.S. to replenish supplies. Comex silver stockpiles
declined for the third consecutive day yesterday,
dropping to 142 million metric tons.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:49 - ID#26793)
TED, ALL: Don't miss my post at 6:46, Steve Roach on bonds. If he is right, and I think he is, the Dipster goose is cooked.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:52 - ID#386245)
Spot gold up nicely!! Must be time for a cb sell rumor!?.

The Major
(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:58 - ID#372425)
@Confused Ray?
It's a contradiction,wrapped up in an enigma,with a little mystery.:- )
To Witcheta Line Dude......Queenstake ( Qtr.T ) signs JV with Barrick.
Go Gold

(Thu Sep 25 1997 08:58 - ID#30116)
Finally back on line! That'll teach me to mess with a couple of modems at once!

WOW, Gold is showing some signs of life! IT'S ABOUT TIME! Morning TED!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:11 - ID#354133)
Lot's of cool "classics" owned by some of Kitco's Free Militia. Remember "Let's be safe out there..."

EB - We could teach you to speak "firearm-ese"...It's a blast...

On another note: I couldn't get my charts this A.M., what are the Dec D-Marks doing? What chart service do you use?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:12 - ID#364147)
@ Comex + Panda
Comex: gold up .90; silver up 3 cents; and Pl down 2.0 ...Mornin Panda: Thought you'd moved to Montana er somethin! S+P futures down 2.15 Donald: Will do! Go dripsters!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:12 - ID#364147)
@ Comex + Panda
Comex: gold up .90; silver up 3 cents; and Pl down 2.0 ...Mornin Panda: Thought you'd moved to Montana er somethin! S+P futures down 2.15 Donald: Will do! Go dripsters!

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:18 - ID#430205)
December gold up $1.20 despite planted rumors of Taiwan CB gold sales.and dollar strenght. Very good action. Bad news being ignored. If this continues for a few days, the shorts may start to panic.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:21 - ID#30116)
Nop! I wish though ( Montana ) . I tried to set up two modems under Windows NT. There are time when I would like to have two data lines going. It would make for some interesting 'trading'... Damn PNP ( Plug-n-Play ) stuff! P-n-P gave me more trouble than it was worth! Give me the old, set the COM port and IRQ by jumpers, much more reliable and less likely to screw everything else up! O.K. back to gold!

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:23 - ID#430205)
Steve Roach
Donald; Steve Roach has been as wrong on bonds these last few years as gold bulls have been on bullion. But he may have it right this time.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:32 - ID#261118)
@ Donald.....

RE your six and change post on long bond rates; Is there a way to play the bear side of the equation with a bond fund you could recomend that takes the short side view of things?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:34 - ID#424253)
Gold's price action should be interesting today, as I believe I detected a %R sell signal last night. If the recent trend continues, we may have seen todays highs ( more or less ) . If we only pause Briefly here and trigger a lot of preset channel breakout sell stop orders, then it could be "off to the races".

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:34 - ID#390214)
Mexico peso
...good morning all...Mexico ...Ole'...
MEXICO CITY, Sept 24 ( Reuter ) - Mexico's National Council for Foreign Trade ( Conacex ) , a group of private
export-oriented companies, on Wednesday said it expected the Mexican peso to end the year at 8.20 to the dollar.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 09:40 - ID#390214)
Gold Mining stocks
Gold mining shares up strongly in TSE
BGO 5.70
ABX 31.65
PDG 23.35
RYO 3.18
TVX 7.25
K 6.55

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:01 - ID#338452)

Good Morning...

Not sure if you missed TED's temps but they're about the same here ( 35F last night ) Great for the leaves but the brass monkeys have to come indoors as well as the 38's ( not the guns! ) Ah well, there's always next year now that "they" have received a "warm" welcome this year at the beaches ! Seems that winter forces us all to "put away the toys" eh! I'm with GSC on this move against the "bad" news rumours. Good news to me!


(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:08 - ID#216292)
Our Numbers Tell a STORY
Sincere Posters: Bart I love our new numbers. Thanks for the effort you have expended on this site. Thanks for providing us with a forum in which we can speak freely and truthfully. Lets see if you post from two computers two different ID_numbers are generated. It seems a lot of Disinformation_Handles have been doing this lately. Could this be the reason many Disinformation_Handles have been clamoring for passwords or the even more untraceable E-Mail_address? As we have seen an E-Mail_address tells us nothing at all other than if you are Bill_Gates you may have thousands. With passwords the same ID_Number would be generated if the Disinformation_Handle logged on at two different computers. Of course this would also happen to Sincere_Posters. One thing about Sincere_Posters though, most would not mind this. Why does the Disinformation_Machine fear ID_Numbers that change when you change computers? Could it be they have so many computers it is hard to keep track? Could it be that the Disinformation_Handles are being run from all over the world? Bart could you please make one little change in the generation of our ID_Numbers? For at least a trial period could we generate our ID_Numbers using only IP_Addresses. This way we could see how many computers the Disinformation_Machine is using. My guess is between ten and twenty.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:11 - ID#30116)
@Coooler weather..
Front -- As Fall comes and the leaves fall off of the trees... Then again there's that funny sking that they do on the slopes come spring time! I've seen pictures of those bikini clad skiers going down those slopes... :- ) Always wondered, do they get cold? Uhhhh, never mind!

Come on gold! You can do it! Platinum don't be such a laggard! As for OIL, come on! Strong economy = DEMAND! Plus the weather is little cooler than I remember for this time of the year! Bean town was in the low forties this morning. Cars burn more fuel in the cold weather, people use more energy in the cold weather, etc. Now, what does El Nino portend for the weather in the Northeast? Do we get colder weather? A wet winter or a snowy winter? Inquiring minds want to know!

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:14 - ID#374200)
Morning All, LGB are you eating crow ???
Good Morning to all. WOAH WOAH BOY gold is hopping up to 326.50 Go big Au. Thanks for the Barrick JV with QTR.T info. My gold stocks they're alive ! they're ALIVE !!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:14 - ID#30116)
Hey! My number changed from the other day!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:16 - ID#432214)
FWIW - Deutsche Morgan Grenfell trading in RYO during 1997
For your trading activities ( take a special look at the April activities )
For all RYO shareholders dealing with DMG it appears that this broker is responsible for a lot of selling ( SHORT? ) during the month of April.

Buy & sells are monthly averages
All $ cdn
Jan bought 77000 @4.02 sold 77000 @4.02
Feb bought 0 sold 5000 @4.84
March bought 0 sold 900 @ 900
April bought 200200 @ 3.45 sold 817700 @3.75
May bought 28500 @3.41 sold 60900 @3.38
June bought 0 sold 9500 @3.29
July bought 700 @2.75 sold 500 @2.85
August bought 0 sold 0
September bought 46600 @2.80 sold 44100 @2.75

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:19 - ID#26793)
BADGER: I believe the Rydex Juno Fund does that.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:22 - ID#338452)

Bart: Re the 10:08 post from our local doubtster .... Personally, I'd like to see that type of information just to clear the air around here. It would certainly answer some lurking questions wouldn't it ? ! Maybe just for a week or so to let everyone post at least once. Food for thought?


The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:23 - ID#374200)
she's gone, 327.05 up 3.55
SHE'S GOIN' up 3.55 to 327.05 like big McGwire blast she's going deep deep deeeeeeeeeeppp. Sorry, I'm just so excited !!!! Last chance on the gold stock express, allll aboard !

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:25 - ID#338452)

Re Changed number:

Seasonally adjusted data !

( :- )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:26 - ID#252312)
All: I reviewed the 45 page "Core Principles for Banking Settlements" by the BIS Sept 22,1997. Unfortunately, it is just a summary of good ethical banking practice: separation of functions, conservative financial managment, confidentiality, availabliity of the books for the central bank inspector ( guess who ) . No specifics. I wonder who inspects the big ( G7 or G10 ) central banks? Will the Bank of England really put their financial statements on the Web? When is Peat, Marwick to be invited?
Donald's reference to the Vatican is the best yet about this matter, re Good Governence I think it is called? Perhaps what is needed for all central bankers who have gone astray is a remedial course in ethics at the Vatican. The cost would be nothing compared to the multibillion dollar shortfalls that keep popping up! Is South America next, or
will it be Eastrn Europe?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:26 - ID#432214)
Another thing about Deutsche Morgan Grenfell on RYO
The September 26 edition of Investor's Diges ( cdn edition ) has an article by Ron Coll analyst of DMG wherein he STILL considers RYO as a SELL.
Note: Investors Digest editor confirmed that article was 'pre-written' prior to August 30, 1997 ( YET BEING PUBLISHED NOW! ) and could be that it was written before ( the article contains data , revealed by RYO on or about August 6 )
Could it be self serving?

Draw your own conclusion.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:31 - ID#81288)
So, is this rally a fake-out or the REAL THING? Opinions with rationale, please.

Much gratitude to the serious posters, regardless of political alignment.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:31 - ID#31876)
Could anyone who's agile on the Web give me some clues? I'd like to
start watching hedge funds that begin to pick up shares of gold producers. Watching the hedge managers about now could get interesting.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:36 - ID#432214)
'Somebody' just bought 1000 ( one thousand ) contracts of RYO March 98 calls at .30 cents cdn
Stock is trading at 3.25 bid

Have a nice day RYO followers.

( See my post of aggressive promotion of two weeks ago ) .

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:44 - ID#22956)
Sleep is for wimps...yawn...
GUNNY - I like being redundant. Software = OptionvueIV. I like 'newspapers' so I get Commodity Price Charts delivered...they go on the walls. And there are some great internet sites I visit on a regular basis. I've only been trading commodities 4 yrs now ( been w/w alot longer ) . I am a 'puppy' ( babe-in-the-woods ) compared to these BIG-BOYS on Kitco. But this has been a fanTAStic year...the 'taxman' has his work cutout ;- )
My favorite currency update site is
it updates automatically ( it sometimes plays havoc when too many windows are open ) . Our DMark is up 18 ticks. I'm holding some and will continue. My Yen is taking a slight thrashing but I expected that ( took a 'nice' profit yesterday$! ) . Now the BP...I have been day trading the hell out of this and making some goooooood caaaaash$$. It's only half size tough, but it has LIFE!
Someday I'll be riding with the BIG-BOYS like Oldman, APH, Dart-Boy, etc. ( and all you other BIG-BOYS ) 'gamble-cash' account is getting HEALTHY!

As far as guns go. I like 'em I just don't own any. I target shoot with my friends. 45's, 44mags ( like that one ) , 30-30's winchester, 30-6 ( great gun! and did I say it right? the Deer hunting gun, right? ) Shotguns are a kick! yuk,yuk. I've been thinking of purchasing a 9mil for 'having around the house'. Any good ones? how 'bout that gloc ( sp ) ? I don't know...

As far as internet service goes have you tried AT&T? I don't use them but they may have some sort of 800# for bein' on the road?? They are BIG! Check it out... protect my ASSets

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:45 - ID#318321)
Maybe this RYO investment is a good idea. One thing RYO has a history of dropping off fast once a peak is reached ( pull your weinie out quick ) . Nick, loved your Bar-b-Que etiquette. Here in Kansas City we have a good reputation for some excellent Bar-b-Que.

Guns at Kitco, whats going on? Relationships between gold and guns, naw, you're kidding? Disappointed no one mentioned the Armalite AR10 and the Berretta 92F. The favorite guns of this poster.

Lurker 99.99
(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:46 - ID#264148)
I found Kitcoite_Ted
Just got back from a trip to Cape Breton. I was looking for the HUMAN_BEING_TED. I could not find his house even though he has given us the explicit location. No one it the area he indicated knew of him. I looked in Sydney, everywhere. The HUMAN_BEING_TED was impossible to find. However while in Sydney I was able to find a computer and get to Kitco. Then I found DISINFORMATION_HANDLE_TED big as life.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:47 - ID#354133)
Anyone notice gold going up? Interesting....

(Thu Sep 25 1997 10:47 - ID#24864)
To Maxt 03:43 today,
You may find this useful for End-0f-Day synopsis of Comex Gold options.

To George Cole
Your comments are a little brighter in relation to the XAU stocks.
I notice they were up another 2% in the first 20 minutes. Down here in OZ, it still appears the "bell" was rung for spot Gold on the 4th of July with Costello's stupid decision to sell off our 67 tonnes of Gold. Only time will tell. Happy trading all.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:05 - ID#22956)
interesting indeed
You are right gunrunner. Gold IS interesting. Should we sell on this rally?? Probably...maybe...who knows...

Ted - You've been found out. I guess the looney didn't search the casino for a puter. It takes all kinds, doesn't it? btw, Those blessed choke artists LOST AGAIN! oh well...I'm rooting for batting-champ right now anyway. Jeeez, this is weird. We've been conversing by e-mail and kitco for a while now and it turns out YOU DON'T EXIST. What the hell is going on?!? ;- )

and why do Dis&99.9 post at the same time...ALWAYS????

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:17 - ID#194225)
@the homeless shelter
NGC +3.65%...PDG +3.76%...CBJ +2.67%...GTCMY +2.90%...GRERF +3.70%...NEM +4.09%...NEM +4.09.. Domolky blood pressure back to 120/80 go George you're our man buddy...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:22 - ID#377385)

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:35 - ID#227238)
6 pak ( 06:42 ) : Your comments on power are right on the mark. I have no idea whether Russia will be a key factor in future events but there can be no doubt that the insatiable drive for power among world banking interests is something we should all be concerned about.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:44 - ID#372100)

Call, and raise ya five.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 11:53 - ID#365216)
Despite my handle, I was actually in the Navy ( USNA Class '78 )
serving on subs for a while and then shore duty. I qualified
on the .45 in the Navy and I guess that's when my interest

(Thu Sep 25 1997 12:40 - ID#335184)
@ for U
LONDON, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Gold perked up on Thursday afternoon as fund buyers arrived in anticpation of Friday's expiry of over-the-counter ( OTC ) options.

``We are seeing some fund buying. It looks like they are trying to move it up to $325 for tomorrow's expiry,'' one dealer said immediately before the market jumped a further $2.00 after London's afternoon fix.

Friday, as the third-last trading day of the month, is expiry day for OTC options.

Spot gold firmed up through the day to fix at $324.60 per ounce, up $1.45 on the same time Wednesday, a level eclipsed immediately after.

As the price hit $325, a combination of triggered buy stops and delta hedge buying briefly put the market up to $327.70, its highest since August 22.

An option gives its owner the right, but not the obligation, to buy or sell a given quantity of metal on a given date at a given price known as the strike price.

``Because of the way the options are working, there's going to be staggered support all the way up until tommorow's expiry,'' said the dealer.

Come the 2.30 p.m. ( 1330 GMT ) expiry, he predicted that little would remain to keep the yellow metal up at such levels.

``I think it could be a very short-term move on the options,'' he said, adding that after the expiry gold could well lose all its gains.

Silver took the lead from gold to gain ten cents on its Wednesday close of $4.71/$4.73, reaching a bid of $4.83 an ounce at one point, its highest since June 24.

A second dealer said earlier on Thursday that gold would remain depressed for as long as questions remained about the source of recently rumoured bullion sales.

The overnight rumour of sales by Taiwan's central bank was scotched early on Thursday when one of the bank's officials said there were no plans for bullion sales.

``Everyone was waiting for Taiwan to say something but there was never anything to say,'' the dealer said.

The bank had gold reserves of 422 tonnes as at July this year.

Uncertainty about central bank sales was however affecting the market, the dealer said, but that related to unaccounted sales of gold bullion said to have come on the back of the Reserve Bank of Australia's announced sale on July 3.

``I think the fundamental out there is still: 'who sold it?','' the dealer said in reference to sales which industry researcher Gold Fields Mineral Services Ltd said this month amounted to 200 tonnes, ``probably of European origin.''

``It was very evident within the market that on the tail of the Australian sale, there was some very obvious, serious selling and from various reports it was in the range of 200 tonnes and it probably was from a central bank,'' the dealer said.

``Until that comes out, it's going to be very difficult to get the market moving to the upside of today's range. It's very involatile, very well-strangled between $320 to $325,'' the dealer said before the OTC expiry effect kicked in.

Platinum and palladium remained relatively indifferent to activity involving their fellow precious metals, the former gaining 50 cents to trade at $437.50/$439.50 and the latter up $1.25, at $192.25.

michael kern
(Thu Sep 25 1997 13:05 - ID#345310)

I cant get the comments to display. What could be wrong?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 13:14 - ID#354133)
EB - Sorry... Didn't mean for you to repeat yourself about being redundant about repeating yourself. It's just when I couldn't get my charts, I didn't have my backup urls nearby.

You do speak firearm-ese. Cool... Lots of 9-mil ( & other calibers ) out there. One could make many analogies between guns and gold/PGMs; e.g., "What do I want this for? How much am I willing to pay for it? Will it hold its value? Will the price go up/down/sideways?" etc ( had to relate this to gold somehow! ) . My "around the house" piece is the Beretta 92F with a 30 round clip full of Black Talons. Probably better ones out there, but I was familiar with the military testing of it during the early 80s and it is pretty reliable. Lots of factors to consider for house guns: Security system type? Kids? Wall thickness? Security/method of storage location? Etc..

Wish I could recommend a good chat line for firearms, but I havent found one with a format I like. Too many chat-groups out there with overly-opinionated "experts" copping attitudes, heckling other contributors, and the like. Whoa, wait a minute....Hmmm.....

"Its a God-given right for anyone to be an a**hole....However, some people abuse the privelge."

(Thu Sep 25 1997 13:23 - ID#194225)
@the experts
Xperts Xplain today's move as strike-price drawn prior to option Xpiry.

Xcuse me, but I'm Xtremely pleased and Xpect more upside action to continue.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 13:36 - ID#426220)
All that is precious SURGING. XAU UP 4.5, HUI UP 5.46, Gold UP 3.40 but Silver stuck UP 2.5 cents. See Intra-Day charts of stock Indices vs hard assests:

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 13:46 - ID#374200)
@Tortfessor, et al...firearms jumble...
With all this talk here about guns, I like to relate a little story: I drove to Detroit from Toronto. On the way home I was stopped at Canadian Customs and they asked me if I was carrying any firearms ?....I said "What do ya need ?"

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:02 - ID#374200)
@Tortfessor More Humor To Ya
I was on a bus and I noticed this beautiful Blonde Japanese Girl. I sat beside her and said hello, isn't it a wonderful day ?. She said "yes, I guess". What do you mean you guess?, I replied. She said "I have been having some problems recently", Like what ?, I said. "I can't tell you, I don't even know you". Well sometimes telling your problems to a stranger on a bus is very healthy for the soul. "Well, I just came back from my analyst and he can't help me". What the problem ?, I said. "Well, I am a nymphomaniac and I only get excited by jewish cowboys, by the way, my name is Raquel". I said: "Nice to meet you Raquel, my name Bucky Goldstein.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:05 - ID#22956)
Is it me OR is it Kitco?
I was cut off until now and it's still acting weird...oh well.

GunDude - I only picked up a handful of posts and yours was one. I meant that *I* like to have redundancy. I like several 'charts' and systems. When I have trouble with get the picture. I thought you meant chart service as in Comm. Price Charts ( hard copies sent to the house ) . I think this is the best Charting for Futures. Easy to read, lots-o-indicators, can take it anywhere ( good to dance to, I give it a 9, Dick ( bandstand humor ) ) . Give me my charts and a telephone...$$ Thanks for the firearm info. I have been investigating...

Good Luck and Happy trading! keep holding the Marks...


(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:07 - ID#364147)
@ Am I hallucinating
Did I finally get to post a comment or what....Recently got in from doin chores on the back fourty and couldn't read or post comments on kitco, that's typical as gold is in rally mode and look at that XAU ( up 4.48 ) WOW!...Did war break out??? are we bein nuked??? What's up Doc??

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:09 - ID#269409)
@Shamelessly Crowing Again re Gold
For all you LGB doubters out there, I just want to violate all known laws of humility and mention that yesterday I posted a 17:03 stating that I had just purchased Gold coins finally. ( My first move into gold in years cause I knew this move was a comin! ) .

That makes batting 1000 so far on every pick I've made public on this forum. SSC, Huge contrary DOW move on Puetze's "crash" day, moves into Platinum at $402, Silver when it was at $4.30, and now Gold the day before it's biggest move in some time. Sorry to crow but I just like to point out that it's possible sometimes for the "little guy", to be right more often than the brilliant technical "analysts" now and then. ( Or even most of the time...OK ALL the time!!! ) And all my calls were made publicy here the day BEFORE the moves...Sorry to crow but..I've gotten an awful lot of heat here for being a Moron and all....

BTW, silver looking pretty strong right now also...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:10 - ID#24864)
re: my 10:47 that was 167 tonnes of Gold sold by Reserve Bank of Australia. Apologies for inattention to detail. Go Gold.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:16 - ID#289289)
My my MYYY! Aren't the metals busy? I just plunked down some ( more ) cash just yesterday -- and the XAU is up a slick 4 points today!! All the metals are busy -- and the COMEX silver stocks are way down......

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:22 - ID#26793)
Rubin Meets China's Zhu, Discusses Foreign Exchange Reserves

U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said the appropriate level of China's foreign exchange
reserves was a topic in his discussions with Chinese Vice Premier Zhu Rongji. ``We talked about
exchange rates and reserve levels,'' Rubin told reporters after the meeting, which also included
Alice Rivlin, vice chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, Chinese Finance Minister Liu Zhongli and
U.S. Ambassador to China James Sasser.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:23 - ID#31876)
LGB === Nobody interested in "U". We're a watchin' AU.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:28 - ID#26793)
I can see the NY Daily News headlines tomorrow. Rubin to China: "Spend some bucks & fix up this dump"

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:49 - ID#365216)
Good gun chat lines
Check out

(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:58 - ID#252132)
@ A Break-A-Way:
To Kitco Techkies:

Looking at today's and yesterday's daily bar charts for the XAU, looks like we have two days of break-a-way "gap" moves!!

John Disney
(Thu Sep 25 1997 14:58 - ID#24164)
I hope you all see that gold has now crossed its
30 day moving average. The RSA golds are nowhere near
crossing theirs. With due respect to Pring's "Technical
Analysis Explained", and the very valued offerrings of
George Cole, Gold ( not gold stocks - at least not RSA
stocks ) have lead this rally ( and I sincerely hope
that is what it is. I dont know yet how the market closed
here but I see RSA stocks traded in NY are up across the
board by maybe 3-4 % - CONFIRMING BUT NOT LEADING THE
GOLD MOVE. It looks nice but Ive been stung before.
Bought a bit early this morning picking up whatever
was left after the holiday yesterday. Added beatrix,
east-daggafontein, and st-helena. The only possible
leading indicator ( if one can call it that was the sudden
spurt in lease rates around September 10 that I was very
interested in at the time )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:01 - ID#246272)
To all goldbugs who are not going farther than kitco1.Look at kitco2 and if you want gold, there it is and a lot cheaper than here.get serious you guys and look at the REAL Bargain gold.

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:04 - ID#430205)
market action
All major XAU components up sharply again on VERY HEAVY VOLUME. This rally most asuredly will not go straight up, but it does look as though THE PRIMARY TREND IS CHANGING FROM BEAR TO BULL, OR AT LEAST FROM A BEAR MARKET TO A TRADING RANGE.

BTW, a continued rally in gold shares does not bode well for the overall market.Sorry RB, but I still think the big cap averages peaked in August. The fact that these did not make new highs despite the strong bond and dollar rallies shows they are not reacting to good news like they used to -- a very negative technical signal. With breadth still strong, a Puetz type crash still seems very unlikley in the near future, but the Dow probably will be closer to 7000 than 8000 by the end of October.


(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:07 - ID#31876)
GENERAL -- We don't neeeeeed any more of thaaaat!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:12 - ID#393102)
Ref: John Disney's 14:58 post. Actually, Dec. gold also crossed 10-week
moving average at 327 ( rounded ) . Wonder if Dec. S&P do the same on the
downside at 944?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:13 - ID#365216)
to Leland
Gotcha!! Uzi, mean, easy does it on the gun stuff.
Gunrunner did ask though.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:27 - ID#31876)
GENERAL -- Kitco is world-wide-forum. If you want to discuss wrapons
and how to become a "trained killer", let's go off-line. O.K.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:28 - ID#346140)
Bart knows
This is a test - did the ID change from yesterday?
Tipster - some friendly advice, probablilty 99.99%: be very careful, they're watching you...q:-o
Go gold, 333 tomorrow please.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:34 - ID#57232)
To all: I hope I got the nautical term right - I'm not Navy!
Looks like we have a gold bottom, and possibly a rally! Even threats of
CB gold sales had no effect. I guess what we need to watch, in addition
to the market are:
1 ) spot commodities index -- watch for drops
2 ) LBMA activity -- probably the gold bear is over, but the elephant
does sit wherever it wants.
3 ) Possible ( deflationary ) market crash -- A market collapse al la
( 1987 ) will catch those of us that are in gold stocks, cheap as they
Some time in 1998 the effective ECU/EMU deadline will be over, and
gold prices will rise. Maybe it has already started!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:37 - ID#393102)
Just as I expected, an average ID, one pair and 4 singletons.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:38 - ID#354133)
General - Thanks

EB - Im still learning "trading". Ive only been at it a few months. Won some, lost some, but and have mostly lost. Got too impatient too quickly. Hope to regain some $$ and at least stay in the game.

On the firearms topic, if you were near, Id let you demo a few samples. Perhaps I should post a DISCLAIMER as to what ( or if ) to purchase. I am not advocating or trying to sell anything - as I was once accused of on this forum. Geesh, the similarity of guns to gold and Kitco chat to other chat groups is amazing.

Hey, maybe we could get all the Kitco-ites together and have a sample & blasting party. Wed finally have that big BLOW-OFF I hear so much about here. Well, maybe not. Couldn't do it in Canada in conjunction with the other celebration. AND BESIDES, someone might become a target :- o

O.K. - nuffa dat

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:44 - ID#374200)
@Tortfessor et al: Nobody Likes my Humor. Boo Hoo.
You might like this one: A young fugitive was about to engage in sexual intercourse with his girlfriend, but neglected to remove the revolver from his belt. In his lustful fury, the gun went off and blasted away most of his penis. The moral: Never leave home without your safe-ty on!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:44 - ID#252132)
@ The Suspense:
The XAU is now sitting at the 102.96 level. This is about the area of the previous closing HIGH of 8/8/97. Will we break it at the close. If we do we are off to the races. IMHO. : )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:54 - ID#346140)
Thar she blows! XAU = 103.17

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:56 - ID#26793)
Bill O'Neill of Merrill Lynch just on CNBC saying the gold rally is going to go nowhere.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 15:58 - ID#26793)
BYRON: The Elliott Wave people say it has to exceed 103.54, the August 13th peak, to be meaningful. Comment?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:04 - ID#318321)

Merril Lynch is as predictable as the sunrise. Are we at Kitco the only ones who understand their motives?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:08 - ID#342125)

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:12 - ID#252132)
@ Moon Shot:
Donald: I don't know about the Elliott People but my "cat" says it is going to the moon. Two break-a-way gap opening days!!! They are probably using the daily highs rather than the closing price. And just a little reflection of Pretcher's track records during the last ten years makes one wonder. Nah, I stand with the "cat".... by the way BGO was "only" up 10.94% today. Gosh, if it does that for a few more days, it might even add up to something. :+ )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:15 - ID#26793)
LSteve: I was not surprised. He did have some positive things to say about platinum and palladium.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:18 - ID#335190)
Recession or Depression @ Management laid off
Kodak says to cut 200 management jobs

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Eastman Kodak Co said Thursday it plans to cut, in the next few weeks, 200 senior and mid-level management jobs, a week after warning that it expects disappointing third quarter profit.

The cuts, amounting to about 20 percent of its management workforce, were disclosed in an internal memo issued by Chief Executive George Fisher and President Dan Karp to employees on Thursday.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:23 - ID#213265)
@the scene
I must say that the charts on gold, XAU and HUI are looking 'very nice'! Notice how they climb above their previous short term highs and don't look back? If I were and E-waver, I'd say we are still in the first leg up! At the most, the second leg up! I'll leave it up to others to answer that though. I just like my support/resistance. It is very possible that we can see some 'decent' numbers before this is done! Oh yes, don't forget to watch those charts for breakage.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:26 - ID#364147)
@ this is better than nothing
I can't read any comments but I can post!!!...What a rally in the XAU ( up 5.32 )!!....Anyone else having problems reading other peoples comments??? or is just me and EB???....

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:27 - ID#333109)
W T F, O?????

Kitco chat is acting wierd.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:28 - ID#252132)
@The Poker Hall:
Cueball: I see you got a straight. 1-2-3-4-5!!!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:30 - ID#346140)
Bart, why does the "short" version of the query screen show up at times?
The one that asks for a single three character month, rather than a full date to date range?
I've cleaned out the caches & cookie storage area - that seems to help a little at least temporarily - we'll see....
What's up?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:35 - ID#255284)
spaghetti language in the comments box??
TED Hi, me vice versa, comments start looking wierd once I edit. And scroll Was going to post earlier: It is a beautiful morning down under, Public Radio News announced "Gold closed at a nice round US$327". Good News, but a nice round US$330 would be nicer and rounder imho.
Nick: G'day :-] your post on BarBs good one, is too camp to

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:35 - ID#390214)
Gold action
...positive comments for a change...
``Gold saw a nice solid breakout from first resistance, and looks likely to challenge the $330 line, as physical demand still looks
good, and recent supply has been absorbed without break of the bottom of the recent range around $320 an ounce,'' Chase
Manhattan managing director for global commodities Dinsa Mehta said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:40 - ID#255284)
@ Golden Duck
Nick, That should have read:
Nick: G'day :-] your post on BarBs good one, is too damp here to fire mine up yet.. Do you follow league? Tonight's game is nearby, which means roads clogged for hours.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:42 - ID#354133)

Re: your 15:27

What's a "wrapon"? It sounds like some sort of contraceptive device ; )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:46 - ID#390214)
Housing sales
..oh oh another the economy overheating? 'inflated' market money spilling over to economy? oh no...oh Allan...Bobby...
August sales of pre-owned homes set
surprise record
Copyright  1997
Copyright  1997 The Associated Press

Electric surge hits durable goods market

WASHINGTON ( September 25, 1997 4:15 p.m. EDT ) --
Sales of previously owned homes rose 3.3 percent in August to the highest
level on record, a trade group said Thursday, taking economists by

Existing homes sold at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 4.32 million,
the National Association of Realtors said. It was the highest level since the
group began tracking sales in 1968 and beat the previous record of 4.28
million, set in May 1996.

The increase, from a revised 4.18 million-unit rate in July, was a surprise to
economists, who were expecting a slight drop in home sales.

Today's figures had been scheduled for release on Friday. But they were
inadvertently released over a voice mail line by the organization and
reported in an economist's newsletter. The Realtors association confirmed
the numbers and later released its report.

By region, sales rose 6.5 percent to an annual rate of 980,000 in the West,
4.4 percent to a rate of 1.64 million in the South and 3.3 percent to a 1.1
million rate in the Midwest. They fell 4.8 percent to a 600,000 rate in the

Nationally, sales for the first eight months of this year totaled 4.16 million,
up 1.8 percent from the same period of last year. Total sales in 1996 were
the best in 18 years.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:47 - ID#258224)
@...Kitco login; GSC/Disney-Joberg; Friday strike price; GLENN ?
Ted/Bart: I also am having unusual problems staying online at Kitco. I couldn't get in when I tried a few times this morning. I thought thast bandwidth may have been cramped at a time when the gold market came alive and many of us probably overloaded the server. ( It helps if we all reduce off-topic comments when the market is moving fast and hard so that we may talk gold on Kitco. I am also occasionally guilty and hope to follow my own advice in this regard. )

GSC/Disney: In past GSC had expected to see a leading confirmation of a turn in gold from Joberg. I think that using past stats when RSA gold miners had much lower costs this would seem reasonable. Now that RSA gold miners are the most costly gold miners - on average -it would appear reasonable that the leading gold miners in any gold market price turn would be those that are unhedged and low cost producers - hence the HUI should be the global leading indicator for gold turns as the HUI - North American miners have the lowest average cost per oz. gold. and substantially unhedged production.

Strike Price ? It was reported elsewhere that the current run in gold price was expected in anticipation of European strike price $325 ( short ) expiry Friday and traders who pushed the gold price up toward $325 to render the short positions valueless. This is a new one ! I guess this spin will balance off the recent poor results that speculative ( false ) CB sale reports have accomplished. Time will tell but Tuesday ( FED meeting ) is the day of we will know if this is a sucker rally or a real turn up in the metal. It would be interesting to see what happens to gold price if the FED does not raise interest rates. Well in any case the traders goofed as they pushded spot gold $2 past $325 - any maore spin theories ?

Glenn, hows the action today ? What do ya hear and see ? Much appreciated.


(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:50 - ID#194225)

Gold jumps up on buying for Friday OTC expiry
11:03 a.m. Sep 25, 1997 Eastern

LONDON, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Gold perked up on Thursday afternoon as fund
buyers arrived in anticpation of Friday's expiry of over-the-counter ( OTC ) options.

``We are seeing some fund buying. It looks like they are trying to move it up to $325 for tomorrow's expiry,'' one dealer said immediately before the market jumped a further $2.00 after London's afternoon fix.

Friday, as the third-last trading day of the month, is expiry day for OTC options. Spot gold firmed up through the day to fix at $324.60 per ounce, up $1.45 on the same time Wednesday, a level eclipsed immediately after.

As the price hit $325, a combination of triggered buy stops and delta hedge buying briefly put the market up to $327.70, its highest since August 22.

An option gives its owner the right, but not the obligation, to buy or sell a given quantity of metal on a given date at a given price known as the strike price.

``Because of the way the options are working, there's going to be staggered support all the way up until tommorow's expiry,'' said the dealer.

Come the 2.30 p.m. ( 1330 GMT ) expiry, he predicted that little would remain to keep the yellow metal up at such levels. ``I think it could be a very short-term move on the options,'' he said, adding that after the expiry gold could well lose all its gains.

Silver took the lead from gold to gain ten cents on its Wednesday close of $4.71/$4.73, reaching a bid of $4.83 an ounce at one point, its highest since June 24.

A second dealer said earlier on Thursday that gold would remain depressed for as long as questions remained about the source of recently rumoured bullion sales.

The overnight rumour of sales by Taiwan's central bank was scotched early on Thursday when one of the bank's officials said there were no plans for bullion sales. ``Everyone was waiting for Taiwan to say something but there was never anything to say,'' the dealer said. The bank had gold reserves of 422 tonnes as at July this year. Uncertainty about central bank sales was however affecting the market, the dealer said, but that related to unaccounted sales of gold bullion said to have
come on the back of the Reserve Bank of Australia's announced sale on July 3.

``I think the fundamental out there is still: 'who sold it?','' the dealer said in reference to sales which industry researcher Gold Fields Mineral Services Ltd said this month amounted to 200 tonnes, ``probably of European origin.

"It was very evident within the market that on the tail of the Australian sale, there was some very obvious, serious selling and from various reports it was in the range of 200 tonnes and it probably was from a central bank," the dealer said.

``Until that comes out, it's going to be very difficult to get the market moving to the upside of today's range. It's very involatile, very well-strangled between $320 to $325,'' the dealer said before the OTC expiry effect kicked in.

Platinum and palladium remained relatively indifferent to activity involving their fellow precious metals, the former gaining 50 cents to trade at $437.50/$439.50 and the latter up $1.25, at $192.25.

-- Patrick Chalmers, London Newsroom +44 171 542 8057

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:50 - ID#269409)
Gunrunner re your 16:42. "Wrapons" are poor picked on Kitco posters who get constantly "Rapped on" for their contrary posts. BTW, what's worth more, My .32 mm Glock semi, or 2 ounces of gold? Which will go up more in value in the next year?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:53 - ID#377419)
@ Eldorado
Eldorado: The XAU is sittin right on its downtrend line connecting its late May '96 and late Feb '97 WEEKLY CLOSING highs. Since the 10 point rise in the XAU the last 3 days isn't getting much public or press attention, I am inclined to believe that the up trend will continue. Although most indicators aren't at overbought territory yet, my inclination is for a brief two day pause before continuing the rise. Make sense to you? or will you be selling this strength?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:55 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio 23.996941 ( I could of rounded off as usual but I like seeing it in the 23's again )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:56 - ID#390214)
...comments from an earlier posting of Reuters story on gold...
Traders said some buying may have been related to the London OTC option expiry Friday in gold, though there was talk of
another large gold mining company lifting a hedge position.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:56 - ID#335190)
Trouble @ Gaining Access to Kitco
September 25, 1997
FOCUS-US factory orders surge, job markets strong

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Orders for expensive manufactured goods jumped in August and new jobless claims fell last week, the government said Thursday, ahead of the Federal Reserve's meeting next week on interest rates.

Stocks and bonds fell after the reports, as investors grew worried that the Fed would have to raise interest rates, if not Tuesday, then perhaps later this year.

"A few more months like this and factories will hit the wall with respect to their capacity," Mayland said.

Wall Street economists had expected new claims for unemployment benefits to rise to 311,000. But claims have dropped in each of the past three weeks, indicating continued tightness in the job market, another concern among central bankers at the Fed.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:58 - ID#258224)
All: Todays gold action is a: ( chose one only please0

1 ) definite turn in the golden Bear
2 ) too early to tell, or
3 ) probably a sucker rally

Your votes are appreciated - any tally takers ?


(Thu Sep 25 1997 16:59 - ID#81288)
BOB: ( 2 ) : 2 early 2 tell -- imnsho... 2morrow should be fun.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:00 - ID#194225)
@the DNC
Gold down = big news. Gold up = no news. Believe me, once gold breaks $450, that will be reversed. Everybody loves a winner.

POE ( peace on earth )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:04 - ID#335190)
Trade Secret @ Gillett = Who can be trusted eh!
September 25, 1997
Man indicted in theft of Gillette secrets

BOSTON ( Reuter ) - An engineer at a Tennessee design firm was indicted on federal charges of stealing trade secrets related to a Gillette Co. shaving system and passing them on to the company's competitors, authorities said Thursday.

In February and March, Davis disclosed technical drawings about the system by fax and electronic mail to Gillette's competitors in the razor market, according to the indictment.

If convicted, Davis faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison on each of the five trade secret counts, and a five-year term on each of the wire fraud counts, Stern's office said. He also faces a fine of $250,000 on each count.

David Fausch, a spokesman for Gillette, said the company is cooperating with authorities, but he had no further comment. Gillette's stock fel 44 cents to $86.125 on the New York Stock Exchange in late trading.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:07 - ID#194225)
@the polls

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:08 - ID#227238)
Well, looks like some 'a them homely yella harred broads we brung to the dance done went 'n put some stuff on 'n 'er lookin' more handsome by the minute. May even consider keepin' one 'er two 'n drivin' 'em home by the long road.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:11 - ID#427357)
XAU Up 5.32, HUI Up 5.78, Gold UP 3 bucks & Silver spurting 4.5 cents near close. All while STOCKS ACROSS THE BOARD DOWN. See Inter-Day charts together on one page:

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:11 - ID#411149)
Donald- I can assure you that Bill O'Neil has his head not in the sand but up his REAR. CNBC always makes a point of having this IDIOT on when we have a rally. Stock sales channel and stock sales firm, what would you expect, we are the enemy.

Tally Ho

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:12 - ID#335190)
Gold & Silver @ Comments
September 25, 1997
Gold and oil prices rise, grains fall on harvest

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Gold prices reversed form on Thursday and rose strongly as a rally in gold mining companies and weakness in other financial investments spurred investor interest in a market that has been burdened by bullion sales.

But analysts said the real spur to activity in gold on Thursday was a rally in gold mining stocks. The widely followed Philadelphia Stock Exchange's XAU index of North American mining stocks was up 4.99 percent late in the day at 103.00, its highest level since mid-August. Gold shares had also been a leader in the U.S. stock market on Wednesday.

"Gold saw a nice solid breakout from first resistance, and looks likely to challenge the $330 line, as physical demand still looks good, and recent supply has been absorbed without break of the bottom of the recent range around $320 an ounce," said Dinsa Mehta, Chase Manhattan Bank's managing director for global commodities.

"Gold stocks look good right now, with the XAU index posting more good gains and looking cheap in relation to the price of gold," Mehta said.
December silver at COMEX ended 3.0 cents higher at $4.780 an ounce. Trders cited carryover from firm gold and from falling silver stocks at refineries and depositaries around the world.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:12 - ID#390214)
Bogus $50 bills
...oh my the printing presses working overtime...getting careless.... the presspersons must be fatigued.....
Eestimated 30 million copies of the redesigned $50 bill are
being withheld from circulation because of a tiny printing
flaw, the Treasury Department said Wednesday.]

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:18 - ID#194225)
She may be ugly, but ( today at least ) she sure can cook.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:20 - ID#240142)
@1 1/2 worth...(ain't much!)
I am very cautious...I read the Reuters story this a.m. and sold off stocks and bought puts FWIW. I hope t continues up but I'd be much more confident when a 330+ close happens. I thought year lows on AU stocks were in when AU was 327 in August. So 327 doesn't really excite me yet...but I am ENCOURAGED...can always recoup on a dip later if my puts die on Monday.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:22 - ID#173274)
@the scene
I LIKE the fact that 'they' are making no news on the gold move. That means 'they' don't want to sell it yet; I.E., it's still tooooo cheap! They'll wait 'till a decent move up is in, then WE can sell it on the 'news' or very soon thereafter, depending on 'things', of course! Keep watching those support/resistance areas for failures!

Stox seem to be having a bit of a time in maintaining 'face' lately. Maybe that'll change, and maybe it won't. Some say they are short term oversold!!!!???? Heh? Whatever.... They also may be about poised at a precipice also! Hey, maybe it's 'dippy' time!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:23 - ID#390214)
When Will the Economic Party End?
Recessions are always preceded by a rise in interest
rates by the Federal Reserve.

Blaming the Fed for recessions, says Alan Blinder, a former
Fed vice chairman, is a bit like blaming hospitals for death:
While lots of people die there, it probably would be a mistake
to read too much into it.

The fact is that recessions were more common -- and a lot
more virulent -- even before there was a Federal Reserve.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:27 - ID#390214)
...oh Allan...Allan...Bobby....
LONDON, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - The scourge of world oil markets, Iraq, sent crude prices surging on Thursday as Baghdad said
it might be forced to cut supplies under its humanitarian oil exchange with the United Nations.

Bellwether North Sea Brent blend rose 32 cents to $19.12 a barrel by 1645 GMT on the London futures market.

Dealers said demand for heating oil in the northeast United States, buoyed by seasonally low temperatures, and concerns over
a Norwegian oil industry strike also were supporting crude values.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:33 - ID#335190)
USofA Dollar @ Germany + Japan
September 25, 1997
Dollar falls vs mark on signs German rates may rise

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - The dollar fell against the German mark Thursday after a report showed rising inflation in Germany and a key central banker there said he favored higher interest rates.

The dollar gained on the Japanese yen as investors dumped yen for marks, helping the dollar rise in sympathy.

Germany reported prices of imported goods rose 5.4 percent in August from a year earlier, the biggest one-month gain in eight years.

"These comments are taken very seriously by the market. We saw a lot of liquidation of dollars," said Steen Jakobsen, treasurer at Christiania Bank in New York.

In late Thursday trade, the dollar stood at 1.7599 marks, down from 1.7720 marks late Wednesday, and at 120.87 yen, up from 120.30 yen late Wednesday.

The British pound rose to $1.6285 late Thursday from $1.6140 late Wednesday. The dollar stood at 1.4490 Swiss francs, down from 1.4590 late Wednesday, and at Canadian $1.3834, down from Canadian $1.3882 late Wednesday.

In fact, some traders claimed the Bank of Japan was selling dollars for yen in the market Thursday, but calls to the Bank of Japan's New York office were not immediately returned.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:33 - ID#26793)
BOB: Put me down for a "2". I need to see my 10% ( 23.50 ) on the Dow/Gold Ratio before I stick my neck out. Ask again tomorrow.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:33 - ID#173274)
@the scene
nomercy -- Oil; also, the charts don't look too shabby either anymore! Anybody out there watching the OJ also? Grain time is near at hand too!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:41 - ID#390214)
SE Asia (haze)
...ecology in the region destroyed....lost working sounds like a disastrous event......
Thousands of people will be killed by the smog
blanketing Southeast Asia, experts warned on
Thursday, adding some regions could face famine
as crops were devastated and livestock choked to

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:41 - ID#374200)
Name that tune !!!!
For all those at Kitco who think they should sell their gold shares on this little bump in price, let me sing to you. "But we've only just beguuunnn, they days are so much longer now... da da da da da da .... and we've only just begun......"

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:42 - ID#26793)
6PAK: Arrested for stealing the secret plans from Gillette? You can't be serious! I am lucky to get two shaves from a Gillette blade. Get an easy 15 from a Schick. ( Not shaves actually, but beard trims )

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:43 - ID#430205)
in Florida
Bob: The gold bear has probably ended. Not 100% certain, but about 80% sure at this point. This is the strongest XAU rally since late 1995 and volume is enormous. The "experts' are skeptical. Gold and gold stocks are dirt cheap. What more could one ask for?

KITCOITES should reread Captain Bill's essay on the $325 CB ceiling He argued that a decisive penetration of $325 would raise fears among the shorts that the CBs are losing control. Looks like he was right.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:43 - ID#335190)
Dow @ Close

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Prices on the New York Stock Exchange closed lower in active trading on Thursday.
The Dow Jones industrial average fell 58.70 to 7,848.01.
The NYSE Composite index fell 2.75 to 491.52.
The average price per share fell 25 cents.
Declines beat advances 1,482 to 1,359.
Volume was 524,888,810 compared with 639,462,979 on Wednesday.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:47 - ID#26793)
NOMERCY: I do blame hospitals for a lot of unnecessary deaths.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:48 - ID#335190)
Nasdaq @ Close
September 25, 1997
Nasdaq declines again

NEW YORK, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Nasdaq stocks fell for the second-consecutive day on Thursday, dragged down by bond-market fears about inflation, traders said.
"The bond market being down was the big thing," one trader said after the Nasdaq Composite Index closed down 8.52 points to 1678.89, its second daily decline after racking up four consecutive record closing highs.
"Most of our tech stocks were down," the trader said.
Intel Corp led the sector downward, faling 2-1/2 to 93-1/8 after the company announced that it faces a U.S. Federal Trade Commission investigation into alleged unfair business practices.
Novellus Systems Inc was among Thursday's rising issues, up 3-7/8 to 123 as analysts anticipated that it would benefit from International Business Machine Corp's move to wire computer chips with copper rather than aluminum.
For the same reason, Lam Research Corp lost 3-1/8 points to 48-1/4, analysts said. Lam was seen as less likely to benefit from IBM's new approach.
Cognos Inc , the most active issue, fell 10-11/16 to 22-1/16 after it released second-quarter earnings that fell short of Wall Street's expectations.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:52 - ID#173274)
@the scene
GVC -- Finally worked my way down to your posting. You do not need to sell it until it breaks! If you can spot a very nice place to take profits, then fine. But otherwise, simply let IT say when it's done going in that direction. So far on the XAU, everthing is 'very nice'! If you have the five minute chart available, then you can 'find' the spot when it might become broken, at least temporarily. I can only say that it looks 'nice' at this time! Unless you know the point that it will go, I would say, 'let it ride'! Who knows, it might be a hell of a ride! But also be aware of where it breaks! At some point, it will at least have to correct and/or go sideways. But, you can allow it to tell you.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:53 - ID#26793)
( Bloomberg News does not seem to be covering the gold rally )
Copper Slump May Turn Heat on Miners: Commodity Views

The world's copper producers are being forced to slash costs and may delay new mines and shed
jobs after the price of the metal plunged this year. Copper is down 24 percent since June and is
expected to fall further because global production is rising faster than manufacturers can consume it.
Some mining companies now are planning to shut some older, less productive mines. Australia's
Broken Hill Proprietary Ltd. already cut jobs and will close a mine in Arizona by 2002. Mergers
and acquisitions also may pick up as market values of mining firms follow prices lower.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:54 - ID#376309)
It was crazy and GREAT today!

Around 1:10 today NY time a trader came in to SELL 1000 contracts at 329.20. Two minutes later another trader came in to buy 500 at 329.00. We sat there between '9.00 and '9.20 for some time before the trader wanting to buy at 329.00 bought the entire 1000 contracts at 329.20. There was more selling at 329.20, but we did close above this level. "IF" we open tomorrow above 329.20 were taking off to the upside. I heard that another 1000 lot contracts were crossed at some point today. I did not see it.
In the morning when silver was trading lower to unchanged I bought back some of my puts. I was also long today catching some of this rally. I was going ot go home long today but at the last second of the day I took my profits and went home flat. We have failed so many time up here and even if we go higher we may go down tomorrow. Anyway I have to go thru my number for my next move. It was very exciting today and I hope we go much higher, and for the first time in quite a while it feels like it. Of course the reason I closed my longs out at 2:29:59 ( We close at 2:30 ) was because it seemed just to "Expected" to open higher AGAIN and take off AGAIN.

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 17:58 - ID#430205)
The CBs
i want to repeat a point I have made many times. If investor demand for gold should take off for any reason, the CBs will be powerless to prevent the price from skyrocketing. All their holdings combined are just a drop in the bucket compared to the global financial markets and global money supply. The key to the next secular gold bull is not what the CBs do or don't do, but the revival of private investor demand.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:01 - ID#194225)
Semper Fi
FDPMX 13.37...+.34...+2.61%

FSAGX 20.54...+.60...+3.01%

George S Cole rules!!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:05 - ID#335190)
Disinformation @ Housing Report (Gold And Coca-Cola up)
September 25, 1997
Dow dragged lower by weak bonds, 3rd straight loss

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - U.S. stocks tumbled Thursday after two robust economic reports ignited fears the economy may be overheating.

Traders were first alarmed by a morning report of strong August orders for big-ticket manufactured goods, such as aircraft, refrigerators and automobiles. The already sagging bond market was then knocked lower by a **leaked report** that August existing home sales jumped a record 3.3 percent. The report was later confirmed by the National Association of Realtors.

Most Wall Street analysts do not expect the Federal Reserve to raise rates at its Sept. 30 policy-making meeting, but the reports roused worries that the central bank would raise interest rates this year.

Most Wall Street analysts do not expect the Federal Reserve to raise rates at its Sept. 30 policy-making meeting, but the reports roused worries that the central bank would raise interest rates this year.

"A lot of groups that were strong, like interest rates stocks, banks, airlines, and insurance are down. But stocks that have been weak are doing better, like Coke and gold stocks. It's a reverse market," he said.
Coca-Cola Co. shares rose 1/16 to 60-9/16.
Gold stocks were some of the top gainers in the session. After the hint of possible inflation from the economic data, money poured into the sector.
Barrick Gold Corp. rose 11/16 to 233/8, Gulf Canada Resources Ltd. added 1/4 to 91/8, with both stocks heavily traded on the NYSE. Placer Dome Inc. rose 11/4 to 177/8.

The American Stock

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:06 - ID#335190)
Disinformation @ Housing Report (Gold And Coca-Cola up)
September 25, 1997
Dow dragged lower by weak bonds, 3rd straight loss

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - U.S. stocks tumbled Thursday after two robust economic reports ignited fears the economy may be overheating.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:18 - ID#307360)
It's Alive!

TSE Gold & Silver Index up 4.08%.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:38 - ID#335190)
Charges @ Investment Newsletter Editor
September 25, 1997
Investor newsletter editor charged with fraud

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Jerome "Jerry" Allen, who wrote and edited "The International Investor" newsletter, was charged Thursday with securities fraud for allegedly accepting $1 million for publishing false information about Ferrofluidics Corp.
The two count complaint, filed in Manhattan federal court, alleges that Allen, of Boca Raton, Fla., agreed with a then-executive of Ferrofluidics, a high-technology company, to publish the information in exchange for the payment.
The complaint alleges that Allen also conspired with the executive to falsify Ferrofluidics books and records to conceal the payments.
If convicted of both charges, Allen faces a possible maximum prison term of 15 years and a fine of $1.25 million.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:41 - ID#7568)

Put me down for a 1. Everthing is falling into place. Those waiting for a close over $330 to get long may have a tough time getting in. Maybe the day of the FOMC meeting where no rate hike is announced we will have a $20 rise in gold.

BTW: Anyone wanting to front run our system can get long in the overnight market. We just got our first buy signal in gold in 4 years. We will be lifting our fair share tomorrow.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:45 - ID#335190)
USofA @ Japan Trade + MAI + Fast Track
September 25, 1997
U.S. voices growing frustration on Japan trade gap

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky Thursday expressed growing frustration with Tokyo over the widening U.S.-Japan trade gap and a lack of progress in resolving trade frictions.

"We are obviously very concerned about the current numbers," Barshefsky told a U.S. Trade Representative advisory committee. She noted a sharp increase in Japanese exports to the United States at the same time U.S. sales to Japan have slowed significantly.

The U.S. trade deficit with Japan has been climbing swiftly since the beginning of the year, wiping out gains made last year in reducing the gap. In July the deficit hit $5.2 billion, its highest monthly level in two years. The total deficit with Japan stood at nearly $31 billion in July, compared with about $27 billion for the same period in 1996.

Much of the increase is being attributed to a weak yen that makes Japanese goods cheaper and a strong dollar that makes U.S. goods more costly.

Barshefsky, who is trying to convince Congress to renew special trade negotiating powers for President Clinton, said enforcing existing trade agreements is a top priority for the administration. Opponents of the so-called fast-track trade negotiation legislation often point to the U.S. trade deficit as a reason to reject new free trade agreements.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:47 - ID#391142)
more RYO news

TORONTO ( Sept. 25 ) BUSINESS WIRE -Sept. 25, 1997--Stealth Mining Corp.
( Alberta Stock Exchange:SAL ) Based on the Government of British
Columbia's Geochemical Survey of the Toodoggone River's high gold
stream sediment anomaly ( Map Sheet N75-95E-July 10, 1997 ) the
corporation has acquired eighty ( 80 ) additional claim units ( 1 unit
represents 60 acres ) in the southeast corner of the Pine Property.

Stealth now holds a contiguous block of 660 mineral claim units ( 39,600
acres ) in the Finlay River Valley of north central British Columbia
covering an area of approximately 160 square kilometres.

The claims are approximately 8 kilometres north of the Kernesis gold
copper deposit which is being readied for production by Royal Oak Mines
Inc. in the second quarter of 1998.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:55 - ID#335190)
MAI @ AFL/CIO USofA Labour
September 25, 1997
Labor sees 'fast track' symbolizing lost jobs

PITTSBURGH ( Reuter ) - Organized labor's staunch opposition to President Clinton's request for special trade negotiating powers is rooted in fear that it will destroy union jobs by encouraging companies to leave the United States.

The so-called "fast track" proposal would restore the president's authority to conclude trade deals that cannot be amended by Congress, only voted up or down.
But to labor leaders the issue conjures up decades of job loss in heavily unionized industries like steel, autos, textiles and electroncis to low-wage countries that is partly to blame for the labor movement's declining influence.

"All I can do is to look at the impact on the kind of people that we have represented and in the final analysis, over the past 20 years we have lost literally half of our entire membership," said Ed Fire, president of the 125,000-member International Union of Electronics Workers. Fire, whose members work mostly in manufacturing and appliance and electronics assembly plants, estimated that most of the 5,000 to 6,000 jobs his union has lost since the 1993 passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement over labor's objection went to Mexico.

AFL-CIO President John Sweeney gave Clinton credit for an "eloquent" defense of his position, but issued a quick rebuttal from the podium only hours after Clinton had left it.

"We believe America should use our tremendous power in the world economy to lead a race to the top, not to the bottom, and negotiate fair policies that protect the environment, that protect workers and human rights," he said. "Nothing else is acceptable."

Although the danger of job flight to Mexico and other low wage countries varies greatly among the 78 unions of the AFL-CIO -- those in heavy industry, textiles and trucking are most vulerable, while those in government, services, mining, construction and communications have nothing to fear -- the labor federation has put up a united front on fast track.

The AFL-CIO has launched a $1 million advertising campaign against fast track in key congressional districts.

"We protect the air we breathe, we protect the water. I think we have an obligation to attempt to protect our members and those interests we represent while we trade with the rest of the world," said Jay Mazur, president of the Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees, which has been hit hard by job flight to low-wage countries.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 18:56 - ID#316193)
Find one o'them funny lookin' things with a pin in it. Pull pin, release
handle, count to 101.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:07 - ID#240142)
@still on the fence
D.A. A small carification to my earlier post...I did not sell all my gold stock position...I hope I'm not that dumb! I did take a good hard look at the 4 previous steepest rallies in the XAU this past year...all lasted only a few days before dipping...also, except for possibly one of the four, there was a corresponding dip in the DOW. All were followed by a rebound in the DOW and a dip in the XAU. We're down so low in AU stocks that getting in heavier two days looks better IMHO than betting the farm again ( exaggeration! ) like I did in late July having incorrectly percieved the bottom as being July 7.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:15 - ID#26793)
All SE Asia covered by smoke, "planetary disaster", peat and coal deposits ignited, fires could last years.

George cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:32 - ID#430205)
real or fakeout
Watcher: The volume on this XAU rally is much heavier than the earlier upmoves. That is why this jump probably is the real thing, while the earlier moves were fakeouts. Also this jump has occurred despite rumors of more CB sales ahead.

Oldman: Would be interested in your opinion of this move. Real or fakeout.

Believe it or not Rubin and Greenspan are not omnipotent. They cannot keep gold down forever no matter how hard they try. Nor can they keep stocks propped up too much longer. Not even sure they want to.

Looks like the question of whether an exogenous shock would be required to get gold moving has been settled. Gold up for no apparent reason. Just what I like to see.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:37 - ID#364147)
@ party pooper down .30 @ 329.20 .....but it is!....Marv: why'd ya bite her buddy??

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:39 - ID#424345)
A Cusp
The market action has been very interesting lately. My take is that the "script" has been laid out very nicely by 'News' ( 12:40 ) where gold will reach 325 for OTC option expiry tomorrow and then drop down - possibly coordinated with an announcement of another CB sale already done and another run by the shorts.

Spot gold moving decisively over 325 spot will "cause problems" and very likely be seen as the beginning of the bull market in gold... Expect counterfire from the CB's and their propogandists as gold starts moving. However, short of linking gold to satanic rites I can't think of what else they can throw at it....

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:42 - ID#177109)
Glenn: Thanks for your on site comments. It was ho hum where I hang out during the trading hours. No one seeemed to care at all that interest rates, crude oil, gold, and forex were all up. As long time friends know I don't think gold can go up big time unless interest rates do too. Well they are plastered on their lows along with gold. Go team go!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:45 - ID#177109)
Ted: A joke ( ? ) going around today was that Marv had asked Klinton to testify for him as a character reference...:- )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:50 - ID#18970)
Rubin calls for more openess in Treasury and Fed oprations. Rubin resignation rumors a few months ago. Hello

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:50 - ID#364147)
Yeah,Klinton would have made a good character reference....he don't bite
.....and he don't inhale! Whatta guy!!....

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:52 - ID#364147)
WW: What the hell is wrong with YOUR DODGERS??? hahahaha....Go Yankees+ Gold!!!...Didn't think you were a "Vermonter"....

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:52 - ID#376309)
Obviously my posting at 17:54 should have stated "I bought back a few of my calls ( NOT PUTS! ) , which I was short".

George Cole
(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:55 - ID#430205)
interest rates
Aurophile: The 1993 gold bull took place while interest rates were low and declining. Granted that a 1970s type bull probably is impossible without surging inflation and climbing rates rates, a 1993 type bull would do just fine, thank you.

BTW, Gold could well skyrocket in a deflationary environment if investors concluded the banking system was in danger or that the political situation -- now so favorable for capital -- was about to escape from big money's domination.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:55 - ID#240142)
Get Real! It wasn't was THEM!!!!!! Check out todays testimony. Come to think of it...I think that was Marv in last months Victoria's Secret catalogue!!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 19:57 - ID#335190)
Voisey Bay Labrador @ Inco is double talking, to clear up misconceptions.
September 25, 1997
Incogives wakeup call to Voisey's Bay groups

TORONTO, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - Canada's Inco Ltd on Thursday warned governments, natives and others with a stake in the rich Voisey's Bay nickel mine that their expectations are too high and more delays could affect the timing of the project.

In a "wake-up call""to the project's stakeholders, Stewart Gendron, president of Inco unit Voisey's Bay Nickel Co. Ltd. ,said he wanted to clear up two big misconceptions.

The Labrador deposit is also facing competition from within Inco, which began the next stage of developing its Goro nickel project in the French territory of New Caledonia.

"If this project were delayed four or five years for some reason -- and there are no thoughts on it at the moment. But say it were. You could not guarantee that it would come on at that time. You may well wait for another decade or 15 years because something else would have taken its place," he said.

Shares in Inco and Voisey's Bay Nickel have taken a beating from weak nickel prices and uncertainty over the Labrador deposit.

Inco's stock fell 0.10 to close at 33.05 on the Toronto Stock Exchange on Thursday, off a high of 51.30 on March 10. Voisey's Bay Nickel shares dropped 0.25 at 20.25, well below a high of 38.25 reached earlier this year.

"I think the only message I would be trying to give to shareholders would be that we are in the process of bringing this on as rapidly as we can. Everything we do is aimed at that end," Gendron said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:01 - ID#426220)
IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH GEORGE S.COLE: "Believe it or not Rubin and Greenspan are not OMNIPOTENT. They cannot keep gold down forever no matter how hard they try." In reality they are IMPOTENT in even trying to deter any increase in the public's OR INSTITUTIONAL DEMAND FOR THE NOBLE METAL.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:05 - ID#201238)
To all - gee, I go out in the field to find gold for a few days,r eturn and find everyone has an ID number! Then gold and gold stocks are beginning their move. Then many of the old group return to post comments. Wow must be good company.

Just wanted to post an observation on gold and silver warehouse stocks. Gold warehouse stocks have been holding near their historic lows with only about 1.1 ounces of physical gold available for delivery. If we start a real up move and this derivative mess collapses, we could be in for some real fun!!!!

Comex silver warehouse stocks continue to fall, now about 141 million ounces total. I was real interested in the numbers late last year, then we had this 'magic' ( at least to me ) warehouse appear with 50 million ounces on Jan. 1. Well, that is all gone now as is another 10 million oz. I am beginning to be very bullish on silver, and of course my old friend Aurophile knows how bullish I am on gold!

It is a pleasure to keep your company, even if we are now "numbered".!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:06 - ID#18970)
No I Confess I do not live in Vermont,But am a flatlander ( as you say ) who lives in one of the original states of the Conferate States of America. Go Stros BUT STILL PROGRESSIVE on a political basis.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:12 - ID#240142)
@potent in other ways
I believe the BIS,WB,IMF,CB's, etc. ( Rubin, Greenspan, et. al. are just busboys for the real power dudes ) are taking the long term view. At some point ( when? ) they will impose the "no buy/no sell rule without our permission" on anything and anybody. 3rd world countries are lining up to get in on their game cause it's the only one in town. Check out the BIS sight in detail. Make hat while the sun shines on gold. Last time I tried, I couldn't spend it at the store! My bank just started requiring fingerprints in order to cash a check! No print...No money!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:13 - ID#335190)
Investors @ Little Legal Protection
September 25, 1997
State legislator group backs litigation reforms

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - In a surprising move, a group of state legislators Thursday said it supports Congressional efforts that would prevent securities class action lawsuits from migrating to state courts.

The state legislators, siding with their powerful high-technology company constituents, maintained it would be better to chip away at state powers by requiring securities suits to be handled only in federal courts.

"In this instance we felt that federal action was not only warranted, but necessary, considering the detrimental effect this type of costly, burdensome litigation has on companies in emerging markets nationwide," said Michael Hotra, director of the group's Civil Justice Task force.

The state legislator group's stance is not likely be taken well by consumer groups, including state and local government representatives who have warned that more reforms would leave investors with little legal protection.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:14 - ID#396136)
Hey y'all- does anyone have or remember the URL for the site I gave here that enables you to create charts with Bol Bands MACD,etc. I seem to have lost it and tried searching to no avail. It had the words ALPHA in the title, I believe. Thanks.

The Wichita Lineman
(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:14 - ID#374200)
Marv's gonna be put away !!
Yeash ! Yeassshhh, the 32nd ace by Sampras, Yeassasshh. Come now darling pinch, pinch, open open, Yeaahhhsss. It can't taste that bad, I have it all the time YEAAAHHHHSSSS !

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:15 - ID#18970)
Myself and the wife ( she is a Lawyer for a notorious Federal Agency ) and my young Children are thinking about a trip to Cape Breton/ you are a great advertisement/ How is the Casino? Better than Gold I hope/ Progressively Yours WW I want tourist info!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:20 - ID#335190)
SEC @ Ferrofluidics
September 25, 1997
Ferrofluidics Corp, official settle SEC charges

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Ferrofluidics Corp. and a former company official Thursday agreed to settle charges that they issued false and misleading information to the stock market and the investing public.

The SEC said it is seeking repayment of ill-gotten gains plus prejudgment interest and imposition of civil penalties against Moskowitz, Kirk and Allen.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:23 - ID#335190)
Germany @ Tax cuts, 30 Billion mark - fail
German tax reform talks fail

BONN, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - German government plans to reform the tax system failed early on Friday when Chancellor Helmut Kohl's coalition failed to reach agreement with the opposition Social Democrats ( SPD ) .

Negotiators from the two sides emerged after five hours of talks in a final meeting of parliament's mediation committee to say they could not find a compromise on Finance Minister Theo Waigel's original plan to cut 30 billion marks in taxes.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:26 - ID#251213)
Hey Eldorado!

I'm long Jan '98 OJ from 72.60 , Dec HO from 55.00 and Feb gold from 326.10; what a day!!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:27 - ID#335190)
Gold @ Phelps Dodge Corp.
September 25, 1997
Phelps Dodge sells stake in Montana project

PHOENIX, ( Reuter ) - Phelps Dodge Corp. said Thursday it sold its 72.25 percent stake in the McDonald gold project and other properties to CR Montana Corp. and Canyon Resources Corp. in a deal worth about $150 million.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:42 - ID#195260)
Reify, I was looking for that site this afternoon also. If you find
it, please forward the URL. thanks

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:43 - ID#270151)
(No more panic)
On July 7 I submitted the following: "Any student of markets will appreciate the current atmosphere of panic selling, negative sentiment, and fear. There is blood in the streets, especially in gold equities." That day was the exact bottom for the XAU and most gold equities. Now there is no more panic.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:44 - ID#347332)
Is my gold graph wrong? gold just drop.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:45 - ID#194225)
@the results
So how is the new Kitco ID# idea working out?

1 ) Averaging a post every three minutes around the clock, many times more than before

2 ) Hugely reduced unpleasantness

3 ) Gold stocks up 4-6% over two days

I didn't like the idea, but if this is the results, you can put my picture, my social security #, and my weight next to my posts if you want.

Now if only Cherokee would come back...

Once again, Kitco improves on one of the better sites on the Web.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:46 - ID#261118)
@ thefront door
Hey, can't get in, what's up?

Bill Buckler
(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:47 - ID#257234)
A week ago, I posted an Op-Ed at discussing the fact that Gold traders had decided that the Central Banks had placed a $US 325 ceiling on the Gold price. That "ceiling" has now been broken.

Today, I updated my $US - $A Gold comparison charts and commentary at

$US Gold had its biggest one-day rise since August 11 today. The impact of the Gold price rise in $A is even more significant. My reading of the relationship between $A and $US Gold is that $A Gold always changes its trend direction BEFORE $US Gold. Only the timing is not constant, the precedent is.

$A Gold signalled a trend change back in mid June, but then the RBA
came out with the announcement of their Gold sale and the price plummeted. Now, the $A price is signalling again, but this time, the signal is stronger than it was back in June. There is now STRONG technical evidence that the $A Gold price has indeed bottomed. That is not the case for the $US price - yet.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:49 - ID#26793)
Steven Jon Kaplan, always a good read, is especially good tonight.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:52 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

100% LONG and enjoying it!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 20:53 - ID#199183)
GS Cole: XAU rally today impressive in every way. The volume was at least as important as the price. The metal did nothing it has not done a couple of other times since entering the consolidation area. I hav e always felt that the first leg up in the gold bull would coincide with the last move up in the stock bull. If this is the beginning of a gold bull, then I believe the next move up in stocks, which I expect to start tomorrow---Monday at the latest---is the last. If we close above the 100 MA in GC7Z, I will cover my shorts the next day if the strength is still there. I will not go long gold until I hear hoofbeats. I still have a truckload of HM leaps, which could "get well" in a couple of days if this continues. In sum: It looks good for the "Bugs", but we wont know till sometime next week is the long dark night is coming to an end.

ps: I'd rather enter on a pullback after a $20 rise than enter now on the basis that there MIGHT be a $20 day coming.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:01 - ID#352177)
Reify and Kuston :

Arden : Would appreciate your opinion on ECO.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:10 - ID#389223)
Yesterday's news for LGB
Well, the Kitcoites would seem to verify my point from yesterday, that gold may be looked upon as a proxy for guns. Aren't these eminent and civilized gentlemen eager to discuss and compare their guns? I read over several comments to the effect that an AMAZING number of them seemed to be weapons afficianados. Someone came close but didn't put together about the Swiss and the Nazis and gold and guns however. The Swiss sold Oerlikon cannons to both Allies and Nazis throughout the pre WWII era...for gold. Now one more historical thought for the night: Isn't it odd that countries like China, Pakistan, South Africa, Switzerland, who seem intent upon maintaining their gold stocks also maintain strong military presences? And odder still that so many in the EC are selling both guns and gold? And even in an effete country like the UK there are major gun collectors who ( surprise ) belong to the Royal family and happen to be gold hoarders?

Bill Buckler
(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:11 - ID#257234)
$US Gold price, with 100-day moving average,
bollinger bands, volume, and momentum.

George Cole ( 17:43 ) The Op-ed is at
Take a look at what happened when $US 325 was penetrated!

Mike Stewart
(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:18 - ID#270253)
Reify, I believe that you are looking for

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:20 - ID#240142)
@learning can be an expensive habit
Oldman...I feel better now...I stuck my neck out and almost got trampled by the bulls on Kitco. Sorta reminds me of relationships...Gold is like disappoints and the suitor becomes more desperate with time or more cautious!...all the while still believing in love. I'd rather lose a little gain tomorrow than find out she's already married after jumping into bed!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:21 - ID#335190)
WW @ 20:15 @ Cape Breton
Here are some sites to get you started. Be careful, if you go to Cape
Breton, they do not like do gooder's, especially Progressive type. : ) : )

Nova Scotia | Tourism | Business | Send Information | Links | Map | Search |

Nova Scotia, Canada *MAP*

Over 3.5 Million Hits So Far!
Ciad Mile Failte!!
That's the Gaelic100,000 WELCOMES that every visitor to Cape Breton receives!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:30 - ID#344211)
numbers and words---

how sweet the sound.

a huge bean stalk has been sighted, and
the crowds are clamoring to re-assemble
at the feet of the giants who reside atop
the smoke-signals.

"if i have seen farther than others, it is because i have
stood on the shoulders of giants." isaac newton

the train of knowledge has emerged from the tunnel of
chaos and flux. are the rails repaired as well as the

a lesson in physics and el nino relative to montserrat,
mexico city, ethiopia, and sol.....soon.

hi ted----AND all the other kitco-ites!!

cherokee!; ) dotssmfatimm----------AND--harvester-of-the-seeds-of-knowledge

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:39 - ID#287279)
Y2K: no triad but more frightening
Sydney Morning Herald
Dr Ed Yardeni, the chief economist in the US for Deutsche Morgan Grenfell, is one of Wall Street's most exuberant bulls and has been all through the current bull market.Yesterday when I dropped in on his home page ( ) I was rather surprised to find that he now rates the prospect of a global recession in 2000 as 35 per cent. The cause he advances will not be found in any economic text books. It is "Y2K".
That is expression destined to soon become common in the financial markets and to quickly make its way into the mainstream.
Y2K is the year 2000 problem: the fact that many computer programs will not be able to cope with the changeover of dates.
According to the Basle Committee on Banking Supervision, where sangfroid is practised in the extreme, Y2K has the potential to spread chaos through the global banking system.
In a memorandum issued earlier this month the committee stated that if a bank failed to fix the Y2K problem: "Many calculations will either indicate that transactions have been open for nearly 100 years or produce negative numbers. New files may not be recognised as the most recent data, causing current files to be erased or archived as old data. These and other logic issues have the potential for causing problems for debt
collection, aging of information, calculating interest rates etc, and could significantly disrupt normal business operations.
"Also when dates are compared, customer billings may change from charges to refunds and vice versa. Even building systems such as elevators or climate control systems may be affected because of embedded logic to facilitate maintenance and operations."
The committee has advised bankers to move decisively and immediately to ensure their computer systems are compliant or they will find themselves out of business. In the same memorandum they warned bankers to closely examine the compliance of their loan customers; the implication being that non-compliant customers should be terminated. On the same day the G-10 governors of the Bank of International Settlements put out a press statement which said in part: "It is possible, in the light of the enormous scale and range of financial participants, that certain applications may fail to operate smoothly on 1st January 2000. It is therefore important that all financial institutions, and in particular
market bodies such as exchanges and clearing houses, develop appropriate contingency plans to deal with any interruptions to counter-party trades and payments." This is Herstatt-risk on a scale never contemplated.
Herstatt-risk moved into the vocabulary of the financial markets in 1974 when a private German bank, ID Herstatt, had its licence revoked when it collapsed following a wrong bet in the newly floating foreign exchange markets. Because of time differences between Hamburg and New York this left $US620 billion in partly completed Herstatt foreign exchange transactions in the pipeline. Herstatt's US correspondent bank, Chase
Manhattan, refused to pay claims against Herstatt in the Clearinghouse Interbank Payments System ( CHIPS ) , the world's main artery for clearing large dollar payments between banks. The German authorities refused to stand behind Herstatt's debts and this set off a chain reaction of panic and non-payments through the CHIPS. The system all but went into gridlock. For months international lending fell dramatically, maturities were shortened and exposed banks were forced to pay interest rate risk premiums. It took a year for the mess to be sorted out.
Herstatt was just one minor bank operating in a global marketplace that was still in nappies. Quite literally, most of the derivative instruments that now dominate in global financial markets had not even been invented back then. The BIS created a mechanism to deal with Herstatt-risk type situations but Herstatt is potentially to Y2K what a firecracker is to an earthquake. As William J McDonough, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, told a conference in Hong Kong on the week-end: "Getting the Year 2000 issue right is critical in every organisation. Failure to get it right will affect the integrity of the payments system and the performance of the domestic, and maybe even the global, economy."
This column has focused on just one tiny corner of the Y2K problem: the banking sector, which is the cornerstone of the global financial system.
While that expression tends to conjure up an image of the big end of town, the Y2K problem could be most disruptive in economic terms at the household and small business level.
If a non-compliant bank finds that its computer system is confusing debt and credit entries, as the Basle Committee suggests, you can imagine what that would do to consumer spending in economies such as Australia which are geared to EFTPOS and ATMs.
If you really want to scare yourself just browse around the web. I suggest that you try, a home page run by a journalist which carries his own rather apocalyptic views of YK2 but which, more importantly , carries an extensive list of articles and official reports, all of which can be accessed through the web. Reading these it is not difficult to see why the hitherto impervious optimism of Ed Yardeni is crumbling.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:40 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Speaking of Montserrat, anybody else checking out 'Volcano World'? Here's whats happening with Montserrat:

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:42 - ID#335190)
Germany @ Tax Cuts
September 25, 1997
Focus-German government tax reform plans collapse

BONN, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - German government plans to reform the tax system to boost investment, cut record post-war unemployment and help Chancellor Helmut Kohl win a record fifth term next year, collapsed early on Friday.

SPD chief negotiator Hans Eichel, premier of Hesse state, accused the Bonn government of never having a realistic basis for its tax reforms. "Nobody could have coped with the revenue losses that would have resulted," he told reporters.

Kohl's three-party coalition government, which agreed the package of income and corporate tax cuts last January, has put tax reform at the top of its bid to win the general election that will take place in a year and a day from now.

Blundering on with unreformed tax and entitlements systems could also put Bonn's bid to comply with the fiscal constraints of European economic and monetary union ( EMU ) into doubt.

"If this round of mediation fails then we will not see any real chance of reform before the year 2000," economist Thomas Mayer, of Goldman Sachs in Frankfurt, said on Thursday.
"That means continuing job losses, weak investment and more businesses looking abroad for a higher rate of return on capital."

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:43 - ID#364147)
WW: E-mail me and I'll send you info on Cape Breton and even though we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum,if you come,you gotta stop at our place.....Other than the left-ward slant of the place,it is a very beautiful island and well worth the effort it takes to get here!!...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:43 - ID#309239)
GLO:VSE is one of our 'core' picks. READ VERY CAREFULLY:

Excellent news of a joint venture JV with Adamas Resources ( AMS:VSE ) and the
completion of the agreement to acquire a 75% interest in the Luchuza ( Cable
Mountain ) Property, Bolivia. Recent sampling has yielded excellent results,
several values over 10 gm/t ( 0.29 oz/t ) gold from narrow quartz veins within
structure with values as high as 24.6 gm/t ( 0.72 oz/t ) gold.
( For you newbies, gold is usually economic for mining at 1 g/t and 3-5 g/t
is considered high grade )

Be aware that the JV partner Adamas is being tracked by several other
prominent newsletters both in Canada and the States ( including Mr Deadlock
and Mr Wilding ) . Undoubtedly, GLO will be mentioned to their respective
subscribers since they hold a 51% stake in the Hydra-Hercules gold project*
, this will create some interest in the stock...we all know the rules of
supply and demand...

*This is an advanced stage Nevada project with a defined gold resource on
the order of 250,000 oz Au and 1.5 million ounces of silver. The host
structures are open along strike and down dip. Strong potential for million
plus ounce deposit. Geologist Greg Crowe will be managing the GLO
exploration program, he is has a very impressive resume!

GLO stock is very tightly held and has been under accumulation in the $2.10
trading range for over a month. Technically the stock is undersold and RSI
was giving very bullish signals earlier this month at these levels.

If your doing your DD ( like you should on ALL your investments ) on GLO:VSE
phone IR Thor Gauti at 1-800-792-3834. Ask Thor for the free video of the
Bolivian properties.

You can find the complete news release here:
Have a very profitable day!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:45 - ID#411259)
..... Gold Glee .....

Lest the glee run amuck:

Gold has gone to these levels three times since July, so we are not treading unfamiliar ground. Higher prices could encourage producers to lock in more forward sales. 200+ tons sold by European CB ( Germany, France? ) over the last few weeks. Gold will make new lows before the year is out.

George Cole maintains gold will not enter a bull market until investor demand increases. All I do all day long is talk to individual investors. This small and unscientific sampling still shows very little interest in gold. American investors look on gold as a dirty and undeserving mongrel dog that has been under the porch far too long to trust its goodwill now. More likely it is a rabid beast that will greet your curious peeks under the porch with great snarls and foaming snappings of the jaw. I will add to new shorts from here to 331 spot. Above that, a quick rally to 440 should offer new opportunities to place new shorts.

Silver is acting very strange. Sold short 100,000 oz today at 4.78. Everything says silver should drop soon, but the warehouse stocks have me a bit concerned. I suspect there is more silver than these numbers would imply. It could be sitting in a warehouse right next door to the COMEX, or sitting on docks in New York or London. Warehouse stocks have dropped below 100 million oz. I am not including Wilmington Trust stocks in this figure. When comparing COMEX stocks of 250 million plus oz in 1996, remember, this did not include the 48 million added from Wilmington Trust in January.

Sold Most of my PL this week for nice profits, I might miss a bit of profit here, but I will buy it back below 420, 410 if I can get it.

Don't let the gold glee sweep you all away too soon, this has all the earmarks of a bull trap. Don't get caught.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:51 - ID#364147)
@ Cherokee
Hi bro!!....As usual we are on the same wavelength....TODAY was "harvest" day my friend....Willy sends his regards......6Pak:re-Cape Breton: ya scooped me buddy and by the way...I think WW would fit RIGHT in here...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:57 - ID#335190)
FBI @ 14 years, file on John Lennon, released
September 25, 1997
John Lennon FBI files revealed after 14 years

LOS ANGELES ( Reuter ) - The FBI Thursday released previously censored files on former Beatle John Lennon, who was under surveillance
in the early 1970s because of fears he would incite anti-war violence.

The move was hailed as a victory by the American Civil Liberties Union of
Southern California, which filed suit 14 years ago to have the files on the murdered rock star made public.

"These released documents prove that the investigation of John Lennon
was motivated by the fear of his political influence and not any criminal
activity," the ACLU said in a statement.

"This is a victory for every person in the United States who is worried
about excesses of the government," Ramona Ripston, executive director of
ACLU-Southern California, said.

The FBI later responded, saying the investigation reflected the ethos of a different era. "The FBI is required by law to release raw information from its files that was collected during an earlier era in our history, when different concerns drove the FBI, the U.S. government, the news media and public sentiment," the FBI said in a statement.

"Under today's laws and investigative guidelines, this type of investigation would not have been initiated by the FBI."

Wiener, a professor at the University of California, Irvine, said the newly released files did not reveal any new information about Lennon, who was shot to death in New York in 1980, but they demonstrated an "abuse of
power" by the FBI.

Among the examples of information the FBI, under then-head J. Edgar
Hoover, had blacked out of previous files was one report about a neighbor
of Lennon's in New York who had a parrot that would say "Right on"
during heated arguments.

"Tom ( the neighbor ) is trying to train it to say 'Eat shit' whenever he argues with anyone, but the bird now says it to him whenever he sees it," the informant's report said.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ -- Just so you don't get Tooo carried away with your doom and gloom on the metals, this could also be a 'bear trap' for those that don't see the trend change. Not saying that it has yet. But if the sucker decides to move far and fast, it'll be to the upside. It just doesn't have that kind of room in the other direction. Trends always do have a nasty habit of changing at the most inopportune times! Don't get caught with your 'shorts' down!
How's the weather out there?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 21:59 - ID#261118)
@ odds
Neophyte........ Yea, so what's your point? Lots of peopoe here have gold. Lots of people here have guns. The Nazis had guns. The Swiss have gold...Alexander had gold, bronze short swords'n elephants; but he didn't know Hitler. Ava Gardner wore tons of gold but I don't know if she ever had an elephant....class dismissed.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:00 - ID#252312)
RJ -- Thank you for keeping our feet on the ground. It is easy to forget the effect of the gold producers during this long bear market. Given the strength of the bull market, and all the baby boomers who think gold is not worthwhile, we need to be cautious. Can you shed some light on the question of when the gold sales associated with the launching of the EMU will end, assuming it does make the 1999 deadline?
The apparent peaking of the dollar, and the apparent bottoming of the Swiss frank however, make one optimistic about gold. I gather there was little activity from the floor trader associates of yours. Thanks again -- I follow all of your missives, as well as the Oldman, and George Cole.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:14 - ID#411259)
..... Tooth go OOOOWWWWWW! .....

JTFlick -

My understanding is the EMU requirements for debt ratio must be satisfied by end of 1997, that's one reason why I highly suspect Germany of becoming a large seller of gold. I can say this much: it will take a lot higher than 330 or 340 or 350 to get the individual investors that George Cole refers to back into gold.

Eldo -

I am very cautious here, gold could make a small rally, which I suspect will precede a move down to new lows. I am less concerned about the gold shorts than the silver shorts I just placed. I'm going with the tech stuff on this trade, I just don't trust this whole warehouse stocks thingytoo pat.

Rained today. A hot steamy Hurricane Nora rain that did less to improve my mood than the root canal I had today.

Away..To take a Vicodin

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:15 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ -- I see Dec silver either making a triple top at/near 4.85, or the third time is the 'charm', and it shoots on up to 5.0 +. Should it do that, there will be NO time to react as it'll be near instantaneous! Can you imagine how many buy stops there are above that magic 4.85 level?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:15 - ID#252312)
Peutz: Perhaps you did predict the turning point for gold, back on that eventful Sept 16.
Peutz, Mike Sheller: One thing I've noticed about financial astrology, is that it only predicts the turning points ( some of the time ) , but the direction must be determined by the investor. The Bradley Siderograph clearly shows this relative to the Dow Jones. I have yet to plot it against gold or gold stocks.
A corollary that one might add could be, one also may need to know which market! By hind site, the world wide central bankers meeting we just had might have been the "awakening" for gold, without materially affecting the stock ( ie DJ,Nasdaq etc ) market. The gold stock market is very thin ( as I recall total equity assets equal to that of Coca Cola ) , and only a little doubt in the safety of money is necessary.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:15 - ID#199183)
Glenn: If I cover my gold shorts next week, it will be because I think I can put them on again at a higher price. I'm gonna keep shorting it until it proves me wrong once, then I'll consider a long.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:21 - ID#199183)
RJ: God knows my heart is with the goldbugs. I am a total bear on stocks for the long haul. But I'm not going to be premature in calling this turn again. I did it once last winter. With all due respect to the fine people here who are excited about today's market action, one thing that keeps me leaning to the short side on gold and the long side in stocks, is the way folks react to a little bit of contra action. Folks on the Avid group started hollering "Crash!" on 8/8/96---the very first day of the correction. Some think todays blip up means a bull in gold. Both may be right, but they are a long way from being proven. Good luck to all.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:24 - ID#177109)
George Cole: I was thinking of the parallel rise in interest rates and gold ( gold stocks, CRB ) from 1946 to 1980 rather than the bear market rally of 1993 in gold.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:27 - ID#396136)
Mike Stewart- really appreciated your help. Felt a little lost without that friend.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:28 - ID#386276)
Still looks like a bet:
Many charts ( Dow30, European Indices, USA Indices ) all seem to be at the classic fibronacci retracement point.
In my mind, movement has to be either up or down and there seems little upward momentum at the moment. Will this bring on a failure?
Golds upward momentum at the moment?
Could this be a signal of changes ahead?

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:37 - ID#280222)
Hi Y'all: I just got in from work so I haven't read the posts yet; so-o-o..if I'm being redundant here please overlook. ///My take on today's action is simply: If dec gold hits 336 it's LOOK OUT MAMA time ( right APH? ) ; conversely, if dec gold breaks down thru 320 it's LOOK OUT BELOW....therefore my proposed strategy is to buy more 320 puts for crash insurance while they're cheap ( was 150 ea at close ) ; and set mucho buy stops at 336 ( futures ) ...expectant straddle with UP bias!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:40 - ID#270263)
My hat is off to bkitner et al: what a 'place' to post -- what a caldron of confusion, bull-hockey, and creative dialogue. All you 'metals bears', please line-up in a row: my target-practice is getting better all the time. ... "COUNT-DOWN ACCELERATES INTO GOLD/SILVER BULL-MARKET LIFT-OFF" .... -- ( + 'THE LEAD SCOUTS'-revisited ) .
Today, September 25th, 1997:
The XAU accelerated today, up a '+5.32 points' ( +5.42% ) . As many of you kitcoite participants might recall, I've referred in several previous posts here, that when the XAU 'chews'/moves thru the 100 level....that THEN: 'the upside fireworks/accelerating values, for gold & silver investments, would really begin, in a sustained way.

I've posted several recent 'kitco posts', ( listed below ) , which help identify the background of, and explanation for, what is about to take place/unfold: "a rip-roarin' bull market in gold" !

Today's action, Thursday, in the mining shares, as evidenced in the XAU, would best be respected, and appreciated, & even 'embraced'.
( And any of you persistent, precious-metals bears -- 'bless your pea-pickin hearts' ! If you insist on selling, I'll gladly buy. )

"The Lead Scouts" ( see my of 8/24/97 ) , are offering us a golden platter, as they reveal the "cornucopia" of opportunity in the precious metals investment markets, AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME.

Todays action, in numerous important mining shares/stocks -- with anywhere from 2% to 7% appreciation in share prices, plus ...THESE INCREASES IN VALUES HAVE OCCURRED, ON TWO ( 2 ) TO FOUR ( 4 ) TIMES, THEIR AVERAGE DAILY VOLUME.....

In several previous posts, I've referred to a 'reverse head-&-shoulders'
bullish chart pattern, that has been developing in the precious metals mining stocks. This pattern is completing NOW.

Metals prices -- gold, silver, platinum, paladium --, and mining shares and metals-funds; are due for a rip-roarin bull market in the days/weeks/months...just ahead.

My 'Shakespeare' may be a little rusty, but ... here goes:

"We at the 'height' ...are ready to decline ........

"There is a 'tide' ... in the affairs of men...
"Which, taken at the 'flood' ....
"Leads on, to fortune.

"Omitted -- all the balance of their lives,
"Are bound in shallows, & in miseries.

"On such a full sea, are we now a-float.

"We must take the 'current' when it serves,
"Or lose our ventures."

I don't know if Shakespeare knew anything about gold & silver, or investment markets. But he did appreciate that old adage:
"strike - ! when the iron's hot."

( The U.S. stock markets, and probably bond markets, are increasinly vulnerable to a veritable 'crash'. )

Sincerely, & 'good-fortune', with your investing,
David Blair Macrory, C.T.A.
Tierra$anta Trading

P.S. Here is a listing of some of my recent posts:

8/24: "The Lead Scouts"
9/19: "LIFT-OFF"
9/21: "Lift-Off Aborted"
9/22: "Wild-Card"
9/24: "Lift-Off Reinstated"

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:52 - ID#258224)
@...survey results - suggestion for Bart
1 ) The bear has turned ( DA/GSC )
2 ) To early to tell ( Donald/Korondy )

Thanks folks....

Bart - It would be nice to add a survey on the precious that may be trademarked as Kitco Survey. We can request a vote for either a Bull Bear or Sucker on each of the precious for a quick reading of random participants on this site. If anything, it would be interesting to evaluate the consensus opinion of Kitcoites. You could tally the total vote before the US markets open and post the survey results to see how we are calling the play by play action. I think we have a good balance of longs shorts and neutrals to gather an interesting stat.


(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:53 - ID#30116)
Where was this XAU/HUI move about three months ago, when I 'really' could have used it? :- ) )

(Thu Sep 25 1997 22:59 - ID#30116)
Here's a chart, you make the call...

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:01 - ID#411259)
..... Goodnight .....


Was it you who wrote all that stuff about physics a few days ago? If so, I enjoyed it immensely. I would have loved to jump in but I have been massively busy lately and time did not warrant. Perhaps you would enjoy a tongue in cheek piece I wrote on non-locality. You can find it on Kitco Date: Thu Jul 03 1997 02:35 RJ. My post was in response to Date: Wed Jul 02 1997 12:40 Ron ( Physics Made Simple ) : so read his first. When things settle down a bit, I would like to match physics wits with you. Until then.


I agree, one or two days does not a reversal make, the trend is still down. Rest easy with your gold shorts, they will comfort you well. Are you going to play some more PL next dip?

Eldo -

Mucho buy stops above 4.85 and I agree 5.00 is just a blink away. The silver short is a bit more risky than I prefer, but this client is a player and he wants to play. All will be clear by end of next week. Wish me luck.

The Vicodin is starting to kick in, so I will park my keyboard for the eve. One should not post while impaired. Maybe I need a designated poster for the next couple days. Tooth going thump thump thump..

Away To throb


(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:07 - ID#270116)

Last week when gold was hovering around the 320 level we heard news of European CB selling. The we heard news of Taiwanese CB selling. We heard all about the death of inflation. We had proclamations on this site about how new lows in gold were immenent. We had the hcat come in with a new prediction for 310.

We then had a strong dollar rebound day and gold did nothing. We saw the XAU begin to exhibit some strength. We saw gold just sit. The XAU began to get better and gold began to creep. Now we have the XAU breaking out on large volume and gold is strong. We still have lots of skeptics. Why will this time be any different than all the other rallies up to this level? Mostly because the dollar has shot its load. Why has the dollar shot its load? Because the European economies are now growing as fast as we are and their rates have one direction to go, up. Today release of record inflation in German import prices has put the Buba on notice. Devaluing your currency causes prices to rise. Its very simple.

A few months back I opined that the strongest thing that gold had going for it was time. The longer the price stayed down at the 320 - 330 level the stronger the fundamentals would become. We have now been in this trading range for 50 days. Each day that passes generates the need for greater CB selling just to supply the increased demand due to lower prices, and the lower new mine supply due to same. Although the CB's have enough gold to sell to the market for many years to come, it is only true if the 'big' holders decide to sell. If we indeed see sales from either France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany or the US then all bets are off. Absent these players, the battlefield is a much different place. At the current supply / demand levels we will need on the order of 3 - 5 Aussie size dumpings per year just to keep the market in balance.

On the technical side of things, a breakout in gold from these levels will likely be very strong and very fast. Many of the system players use historical volatility in calculating the size of the position that they take on entering a new position. In a market such as this, the logical stop for a break above $330 will be $320. With such a tight stop, very large long positions will be taken.

The two hundred day moving average of silver is creeping down. We may only have to go sideways over the next week or two in order to trip the switches on some of the big technical players. With the market as tight as it is, look for a big jump when this occurs.

By the light of our technical system, the action in both gold and silver is very strong. Historically this type of activity is most typical of rising markets.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:09 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ -- I certainly do wish you luck! And as you say, by the end of next week we should know whether this be the beginnings of a new bull, or the continuation of bullsh_t! I'll just play it day-by-day as it bounces about, not that it has done much of that this week!

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:11 - ID#57232)
RJ -- The fellow having the dialogue with Organ was me! I will look up your non-locality missive, and the one from Ron.

Bart -- My ID's are now ( ID#252312 ) *3 and ( ID#57232 ) *1 with two different ID's on the same computer. I'm still the same me ( as far as I know ) . Ideas? My next e-mail may need to be to Mike Sheller, or to a Physicist for advice on parallel universes!

To all: I 've been on Kitco for about five days now, and am enjoying this immensely. Thanks, Bart for making it possible.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:14 - ID#201238)
NJ - since you asked. ECO is a real problem. They have a very good mine, actually a couple of them, Round Mountain and Lupin, but they continually spend money without reason, then refinance something from Round Mountain. I was really taken aback with their last two proposed projects ( both of which are mothballed ) when they proposed them with a 6 year payback with gold at 375. It seems to me that they were grasping at straws. Also they have had an enormous change in management but I don't think in the Director position. ( Kill the bearer of bad news? ) This company could be good, but it has a ways to go.

To all, the funds bid up the price of the stocks they are most familiar with at the start of a bull move, not necessarily the best companies. That is why you see ABX, HM, NEM, ECO start out well at a time like this. The real leverage is in the some of the other companies with growth prospects.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:18 - ID#22956)
Sell on the Rally, Gold. Buy on the Dip. PL. How simple can it be?? And my Hygienist-Babe-Girlfriend says GO long on Dental-Floss ;- ) and send ME the Vic-500mg...oh my!!

Did someone say OJ?!? Let's get it on. Frost scare in Brazil I hear. However, the crop in Florida next season is looking to be record breaking...c'mon El Nino & Med-Fly. ( sorry to all growers ) Hold all JOF8 and w/w for JOH8. OJ is going to ROCK! floss and Seinfeld

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:32 - ID#289289)
LOVE those new numbers! Now we can keep all the players straight as we now have a program! ( "Getchur programs here......can't tell the players from itch-other without a programmmmmm" ) I noticed it has reduced the baffoonary to a very minimal level.

One poster opined that our roudy "misinformation" posters could defeat this by using a couple different computers. No worries......that would take a lot of effort just to disrupt this august body. Besides, once I see some baffoonary, I will note the number and quickly move on past future posts. Now, if Bart could give us a twit filter that would allow us to customize our downloads...... [anticipatory grin]

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:35 - ID#173274)
@the scene
D.A. -- Wasn't 'moving up in the face of bad news' one of the criteria of a change in direction that was discussed here a couple weeks ago? Well, it would appear that we may be seeing the bare beginnings happening at this juncture. A break above some key numbers could be a sight to behold, methinks! Especially if a bit of 'fear' creeps into the paper! Keep an eye on that stuff too.

(Thu Sep 25 1997 23:42 - ID#289289)
One thing I've noticed is that the Bear and Bulls and Neutrals are numbering about equal numbers. And what about moi, you ask? I have the big picture on this kind of thing. I'm smart enough to recognize the down trend and have been buying. But I'm a goldbug at heart and hope that this is the start of our salvation! Yesterday I bought my last position as I think we are out of the woods; and I am also out of money! The latter is pretty much self critiquing.

Oldman: welcome back! Nice to see your sage advice again. Cherokee, your humor and unique outlook is always welcome here. George C: nice to see your posting volume increasing! Ted: hope you have your long underware out of mothballs. But perhaps gold will move in your direction and you can spend part of the winter in Florida. WW -- wow! Mike S: any comets heading our way? I like comets and did OK on Hale-Bopp! To all I missed: it's great to have the discussions flowing again.

I think it's wonderful to have discussions among the bulls and bears. To me, investing is like mowing the yard. We all have our different techniques and tried-and-true methods. But in the end, we all end up with pretty nice looking yards. Now that we have the ID numbers, I can enjoy this site again. It's now very easy to weed out the men from the boys -- and children.