Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Fri Sep 26 1997 00:05 - ID#352177)
Arden : Many thanks for your prompt response. My interest in ECO was because of their unhedged position and past market performance. Yet this is one known company that has not participated in the present rally, hence my concern. I agree that mf money will go to the known names first. I guess what I am looking for is second rung names who may outperform?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 00:11 - ID#252312)
RJ: I had a chance to scan your and Ron's messages. It's clear both of you know something about the field, given the topics you chose. I must admit they were more entertaining than any courses I had!
Ironically, if you ignore all of the mathematics and focus on the concepts, the real ( new ) physics is almost as mind-bending as your and Ron's missives. I'd love to see what you say about Bell's theorem and Bell's inequality, or time reversal -- ( phase conjugate waves ) . Yes -- time can actually be reversed for certain optical phenomena. Optical physicists have kept this secret from the rest of us, probably because they don't have a clue what it means, but it makes great tightly pulsed laser beams! Lots of physics is like that, despite the hype!
You might get a kick out of "The New Physics" Ed Paul Davies, Cambridge University press 1994 ( in paperback, fortunately for us avid readers who still have kids to support ) . This book is mainstream ( orthodox type ) physics and gets sufficiently theoretical to interest a high-powered theorical physicist, and the rest of us mere mortals can look at the diagrams and beautiful color pictures. Schrodinger's cat is on p391 - both alive and dead ( well before the animal rights interest would have nailed him - of course he could have just closed and opened the box a couple of times just to drive them stark reving mad ) , the phase conjugate optics time reversal stuff is on P305 of my edition. There is also alot of other interesting stuff, such as reversal of entropy ( heresy!! ) , feynman diagrams etc. ( I think Feymann missed out on the time reversal stuff, even if he did get it right about the O-rings on the space shuttle Columbia ) . I have always wondered about entropy, because I think humans violate it all the time! What they do always seems to increase entropy unfortunately ( SE Asia ) -- I just mean they decrease it by their simply existing! ( My thermodynamics prof didn't take kindly to my inquiries ) . Don't forget to look up zero-point energy if you haven't done so --
I wish I had a book on the fringe Physics to recommend. This is even wilder and a hot bed of activity for young Physicists who don't know any better. Some of these will get whipped into shape by their seniors, and accomplish nothing new with their lives. At least one, I hope will survive the education process to become the next Einstein!
Some of the fringe Physics offers the clue to an unlimited source of energy, which I believe a small number of people already know about. Re: Look at Jane's Defense monthy ( I think May or June 1995 or 96 ) regarding "alternate drive" vehicles, I think they are called. Would the rest of us call them UFO's if they didn't say NASA or USAF, or RAF? or?? How about those "black" helicoptors. I don't recall if Janes has pictures of them. Those of us who live see the next twenty years are in for a technological treat that will make the computer revolution just a warmup! On the serious side -- I am more than a little upset that some individuals know about such things, and won't let us know. However, it is leaking out slowly in the internet. RJ -- I'm looking forward to the response!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 00:15 - ID#364121)
@camp david
Mr Greespan, the honeymoon is over. You have injected reservres in
the system like grant took richmond. Insurance companies are panicked at the financial markets and are buying brokerage firms
at whatever the cost may bearer. Bottom line is the game is over.
every american company is abled to cloned by what ever super money
consortion in the world. The buy and hold theory only is given to the
suckers and smart money says I dont buy it! You think you can sell
social security to the market but you are only giving the keys to the chicken coup to the wolves.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 00:17 - ID#352177)
Market turns
RJ and Oldman :

Gold has been belittled for the longest time. Yet, it has to be recognized that it is a lagging financial asset which has much more room on the upside than on the downside.

The present rally may well not last but, more than anything else, it is telling us that there is something wrong with the financial markets. If the stock and bond markets swoon, gold is assured of a rally lasting through at least the end of October. If the stock market goes into yet another "final rally" a la Oldman, gold prices will surely retreat within the week.

I on my part believe the stock and bond markets are now in for a period of consolidation and that the long one way ride up forever has now ended.

That is what has prompted this rally in gold in the face of European and Taiwanese gold sales and every other reason being bruited about on the street explaining the demise of gold as a financial asset.

It may not be a bull market yet, but it surely is the light at the end of the tunnel.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 00:46 - ID#388434)
@ RJ, JTFlick
Hi RJ;

That was Mike and I bantering about physics the other nite - - Glad to find out that others on the board found it interesting, strange ( but nice ) mix here at Kitco . . .

JTFlick; Be careful with "fringe physics," it's a trap that many a good physicist has fallen prey to . . . A few years ago it was a mass exodus to Eastern Mysticism, when non-locality was finally and ultimately proven. Seems it was more than some minds could bear. Today's crop of "free energy" proponents have lots of theories, all undemonstrable and all unproven. I especially enjoy the "hydrogen fuel" crowd, can you visualize fuel cells for power production and automobiles? I'd hate to see the total of emissions generated ( in producing the hydrogen ) if that concept ever takes a popular fancy!

All; as to todays surge in gold price, I hope it was a fluke. We don't have the groundwork in place for a dramatic ( and profitable ) rise as yet. I see it as a bit of manipulation to prolong the price channel that has developed. As to the Dow, it needs to drop to 7300 or so and bounce, most likely producing the 10,000 people have been waiting for. Only then will all condx be in place for a REAL gold bull . . . These predictions may not come to pass, but then neither will a super bull market for gold, IMHO.

Regards, Niner

(Fri Sep 26 1997 02:09 - ID#273168)

Hello YELLOW JACKET Yup......its late BUT ther are parts of the world that are NOT asleep. IT was substancially DOWN 3 hrss ago and noww we are only down *pennies*.......anythiong canhappen BUT II BELIEVE in the next 5 business days we will see a HUGE shift towars the metals.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 02:48 - ID#396136)
@ Curious
John Disney, or anyone that has any info on what's happenng to Blyvoors
holders ( BLYDY ) ? John you spoke often about a merger with Deep Levels etc., but noone has contacted me to tell me squat, and I am a shareholder.

You may email me if you prefer with any info you might have.


Re RJ,&Ted Dotson's comments. Have a great deal of respect for both, and have watched their performances over a fair period, but now with what my work, long term, of course, is telling me the bottom is in and we should expect a substantial rally of possibly several months.
Many of the necessay requirements for a bottom are in place, and those that aren't, we'll all be watching for them to fall into place.

What I'm curious about, as traders, "why gold", there are many more volatile commodities or currencies to trade???

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 03:46 - ID#244209)
You might as well be shorting Platinum

twen-ty-five years ago
broke out
and markets
spoke out

in recession
and oppression
and together we toked

and we grokked
on sitars
a bond fire

the shiny

what the hell

Some were spellbound
by Diana's crown
All fall down?
Naw, DOW got back up

No crack up.

Angst for meltdown.

And our kids
doing stock picks

We're hypocrites

Buy and hold fashion
the true meaning of it.

so don't delay

act now

supplies are running out

allow, if you're still alive,
six to eight years
for the bear
to arrive

and if you follow
there may
be a tomorrow
but if
the dollar ain't done....

You might as well be shorting

You might as well
be shorting

- apologies to _Smash Mouth_ : ) My mind was the first thing to go.

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 03:53 - ID#244209)
God, Gold, Guns....

and the General forgot the fourth Horseman of the AU-pocolypse...

Galium. : )

So don't delay
Act now.
Supplies are
running out.

This is a Bull attack.
So don't look back.

Allow, if you're still alive,
six to eight years
for gold to thrive.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 04:42 - ID#335190)
Japan @ Market
September 26, 1997
Tokyo Nikkei ends below key 18,000 line

TOKYO ( Reuter ) - The Tokyo stock market's benchmark ended below the 18,000 threshold Friday as position squaring before the weekend burdened the market already depressed by a gloomy economic outlook, brokers said.

The Nikkei average ended 347.25 points or 1.89 percent lower at 17,994.71 recovering slightly from a fall which brought it down to 17,933.37 late in the session. December Nikkei futures closed down 350 points lower at 17,930.
"The market mood is very pessimistic as the economy doesn't seem to be doing well and investors are worried that the government may not be able to do much to stimulate it, making them reluctant to buy," Seiki Orimi, Dai-Ichi Securities analyst said.

"The Bank of Japan's survey on corporate sentiment is due out next week and the market is waiting to see what it will yield, heightening the wait-and-see mood," he said.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 04:48 - ID#335190)
USofA @ Trade Japan
September 26, 1997
Japan defends deregulation plan after US complaint

TOKYO, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - Japan on Friday defended its plans to deregulate its economy and said U.S. complaints about Tokyo's "attitudes" toward two-way spats were unproductive.

U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky Thursday expressed growing frustration over the widening U.S.-Japan trade gap and a lack of progress in settling trade feuds.

"Japan is focused on deregulation," the trade official said. "According to the plan we are supposed to carry out, there are deadlines for relevant revisions of laws and regulations. The deregulation process requires legal procedures... It is not a one-shot, month-to-month issue."

Washington, well aware of Tokyo's commitment to fiscal austerity, has stepped up pressure on the deregulation front. The two sides earlier this month kicked off talks mandated by an agreement between Hashimoto and President Clinton last June to intensify discussions of Japan's deregulation.

Nor are there any signs of a quick resolution to a dispute over allegedly discriminatory Japanese port practices, which led the Federal Maritime Commission to slap sanctions on Japanese container ships early this month.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:07 - ID#335190)
TSE @ Gold
Friday, September 26, 1997
Stock Markets Inspired golds fail to lift TSE

Wall Street stocks tumbled after two robust reports ignited fears the U.S. economy may be overheating. A red-hot gold and precious minerals subindex failed to keep Bay Street in positive territory


The rate fears were whipped up further by a weak earnings report from Canadian business software maker Cognos Inc. ( COGNF/NASDAQ ) . Its shares fell more than 30% in heavy trading before closing at US$22 1/16, down US$10 11/16.

"It's a very mixed day with a lot of end-of-quarter portfolio adjustments going on," said Jon Groveman, vice-chairman of Ladenberg Thalmann. "A lot of groups that were strong  financial services, banks, airlines and insurers  were down. But stocks that have been weak are doing better, like Coca-Cola and gold stocks."

In Toronto, the stock market's benchmark index ended lower as gains in the gold group failed to overcome the weakness. The Toronto Stock Exchange 300 composite index fell 36.1 points, or 0.5%, to 6975.72. Volume on the Toronto Stock Exchange fell to 145.2 million shares, down from 181 million shares traded Wednesday.

The gold subindex soared 4.08%, but failed to keep the market in positive territory. The price of bullion on the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange supported the rise, climbing US$3.60 to
US$327.20 an ounce. Gold producer Placer Dome Inc. ( PDG/TSE ) gained $1.70 to $24.70. Barrick Gold Corp. ( ABX/TSE ) rose $1.40 to $32.90.
Traders said in spite of several high-profile companies warning about possible earnings disappointments, they expect the bulk of the third-quarter earnings will be good.

The Big Beaver
(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:17 - ID#373337)
Fasten seat belts!!!!!

Calling All Gold Bugs:

Fasten your seat belts; the rocket ship is now leaving Earth's gravity and there's no turning back. Hope you're enjoying your First Class Seats and extemely low fare prices. Fuel is now cheap and we will be able to travel far into the Galaxy.

There are a couple more ships leaving later, but they will be very expensive and passengers will be stuck in economy/stand by class. They won't be able to travel very far as the price of fuel will be exceedingly expensive by then.

Oh Well, the Doubting Thomases always seem to get left behind, especially the "know it all types"!

Go Gold!!!!!!! Go Bema!!! Go Newmont!!! Go Barrick!!!!! Go Euro Nevada!!!!!!! Rah Rah Rah!!!!!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:22 - ID#335190)
Gold @ China
Friday, September 26, 1997
B.C. Report
Asia Minerals leads gold miners' foray into China

Vancouver Bureau Chief The Financial Post
Since early September, the shares of Vancouver-based Asia Minerals Corp. have risen about 25%  an experience shared by few junior gold explorers.
The share price dipped below 60 in August when a big Toronto institution simply dumped its holding on the open market without even asking Asia Minerals president David Owens if he wanted to help find a new home for the shares, just as the company was on the verge of a good-news announcement.
The stock ( AMP/ASE ) , which have traded in a 52-week range of $1.50 to 38, closed yesterday at 75.

The institution unwound its Asia Minerals holdings just as the company reached a long-awaited threshold in its development. In late August, Asia Minerals finally got approval from the Chinese government to establish communist China's first foreign gold-mining joint venture.

Asia Minerals went public in 1993 by taking over a shell on the Alberta Stock Exchange. Owens then began talking to major mining companies for financing. No one showed much interest until he called on Royal Oak Mines Inc. president Margaret Witte. "With very little hesitation, she offered a deal," Owens says. Witte invested $2 million for back-in rights on Asia Minerals projects. It gave Royal Oak a major interest ( now 44% ) in the

By focusing on gold, Asia Minerals had chosen one of the toughest nuts to crack in China minerals. "It has been an incredibly secretive industry in China," Owens says. "The first year that they published any gold production figures was 1994."

The approval of the joint venture by Beijing's Ministry of Foreign Trade and Economic Co-operation is described as the "final consent" that Asia Minerals needs. The remaining business licence now becomes a mere formality, Owens says.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:33 - ID#288274)

Can anyone tell me what time TED@CAPEBRETON usually logs onto KITCO? I have a message for him that he should recieve today. ( nothing to worry about, just some humor that is most timely. )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:47 - ID#386245)
Shanoon--re: Ted's log-on time. Look mate, there are a lot of variables here which require close examination. It all depends on several factors, ie, how late Ted stayed at the casino last night, how much money he lost, how much he had to drink, WHAT he drank, eg Aussie beer will require a later start up time, what the temperature is ( he don't get outta bed if it's below 32 ( that's zero to me, Ted ) , and last but not least, what kind of mood his wife is in this morning. You never know, if she is in a good mood, Ted could get lucky and be delayed half an hour or so.. Shanoon-- if you've got a good joke--just post it for the rest of us and we'll tell Ted about it later!!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 05:51 - ID#26793)
Joburg Gold Index up 29.6 ( 3.26% ) this morning.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:00 - ID#26793)
Malaysia: S&P alters outlook rating to


By James Kynge in Kuala Lumpur

Standard and Poor's, the international rating agency, yesterday warned of
potentially large loan losses in Malaysia's financial sector and revised
downward the outlook for credit ratings.

The announcement - the latest sign of rapidly flagging confidence in Malaysia's
economy - came one day after a heavy run by depositors to withdraw money
from MBf Finance, the country's largest finance company. The run dissipated
yesterday after central bank assurances that depositors' money was safe.

Standard and Poor's re-affirmed its existing ratings for Malaysia's sovereign
debt denominated in foreign and local currencies but revised the outlook on
the ratings from "stable" to "negative" - which serves notice that the credit
rating may be revised downward in the future.

The revision was prompted by a number of factors, the agency said. One was
that, as the economy slows, banks and finance companies may be hit by high
lending to an oversupplied property market.

This problem is compounded by the amount of debt outstanding in the
economy - estimated at more than 170 per cent of gross domestic product
this year - which is "very high" by international standards.

"Potentially large loan losses in the financial sector would weaken the
government's financial position as well as the economy's medium-term growth
prospects," Standard and Poor's said in a statement.

The excessive level of credit in the economy is being compounded by "evident
reluctance" to curb rapid credit growth which is financing an "unsustainable
boom in investment". While other south-east Asian countries have tried to
shore up their depreciating currencies by raising interest rates, Malaysia has
done the opposite, keeping rates low to protect heavily indebted companies
against repayment demands.

Many economists argue that this easy credit policy may succeed only in
delaying an inevitable credit crunch.

Standard and Poor's also took issue with what it called the government's
"ambivalent" commitment to orthodox economic policies. It cited moves by
Mahathir Mohamad, the prime minister, to restrict free market forces in the
currency and stock markets.

The agency said future ratings hinged on effective steps, starting with the
budget to be announced in October, to slow excessive demand.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:01 - ID#288274)

NICK: Thank you for you very informative post.TED is the only person on KITCO to refer to National League West baseball ( "Go Barry! Go Giants!" ) Therefore, I'm afraid most KITCOITES wouldn't find it funny. I guess I will just have to remain vigilant and patient. Thanks again!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:05 - ID#26793)
Mexico: Government asks banks group for
stand-by credit of up to $3.5bn


By Leslie Crawford in Mexico City

The Mexican government is negotiating a credit line of at least $2bn with a
syndicate of international banks, the largest commercial bank loan since the
1995 peso crisis, to guard against "unforeseen contingencies", according to
government officials.

The stand-by facility, of up to $3.5bn, would be made available if new turmoil
in emerging markets provoked a sudden outflow of foreign capital.

The credit line is being arranged by Credit Suisse First Boston, the investment
banking arm of Credit Suisse Group.

Lukas Mhlemann, chairman of the Swiss banking group, met President
Ernesto Zedillo this week, and said afterwards: "This is a market mechanism
that will provide Mexico with resources to counteract events beyond the
government's control."

Many economists believe Mexico may face a new crisis of confidence if Mr
Zedillo's administration fails to reach agreement with the opposition-controlled
Congress over the 1998 budget.

If the budget law is not approved by December, the workings of government
will grind to a halt because there are no legal provisions that would allow
Mexico to continue servicing its foreign debt, or pay the salaries of
government employees, in the event of a budget impasse.

But aides to President Zedillo said the new loan facility would not finance
government business in the absence of an approved budget.

Other economists believe the credit facility might be used to pre-pay monies
owed to the International Monetary Fund, or to retire more expensive
commercial bank debt.

Alfredo Thorne, an economist with J.P. Morgan, said Mexico was under
pressure to repay part of its outstanding $11bn debt to the fund, borrowed
during the peso crisis, so that the IMF could help distressed governments in
south-east Asia.

Guillermo Ortiz, Mexico's finance minister, said this week that Mexico would
not be borrowing more money from the IMF. Mr Ortiz had previously
indicated Mexico's interest in negotiating an Extended Fund Facility, an IMF
medium-term borrowing programme, to iron out humps in Mexico's debt
repayment schedule. Under the present timetable, Mexico must repay the
IMF $3bn in 1998 and $6bn in 1999.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:19 - ID#255285)
no substitute for Tort, I guess he sleps shhh...
Getting a little salty on a Friday night, at Nick's invitation ( i sure hope it hasn't been posted before )

There was this old man sitting at the bar sobbing, tears dripping into his beer. "I got married to a lovely young widow last week," he explained to the barman. "She is a great cook, washes and irons my clothes, she looks gorgeous and she is insatiable in bed." He said.
"Then why the hell are you crying ?" asked the barman.
"Because I can't remember where I live," sobbed the old man.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:20 - ID#386245)
Jo'burg gold now up 30.5 ( 3.35% ) Donald. Hope you Can/anks do the right thing as I am "holding" plenty of gold shares over the weekend.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:31 - ID#386245)
Aurator--Iwant to thank you from the bottom of my golden heart, mate. I am re-reading "The Zurich Axioms" that you posted Aug. 15th at 19:36. It is one of the all time great posts on this site and is worth it's weight in gold. I love major axiom 4 on forcasts--"Human behaviour cannot be predicted. Distrust anyone who claims to know the future, however dimly. Nobody has the foggiest notion of what will happen in the future. Nobody. Never lose sight of the possibility you have made a bad bet".

Some quiet night, mate, repost the whole 4 pages, and anyone who doesn,t get it down deserves the rewards life has in store for them. How's that slab of Steinies doin, mate?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:31 - ID#255285)
wake up TED...
My precious $322.10 -4.90. was that london?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:32 - ID#26793)
Hello Nick: I wish the Brits had done more, spend more time on gold than on stocks. They have stocks up over 100 today.

Mike Sheller
(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:36 - ID#347447)
Let's get Non Physical
GOLD BEARS: Caution lads & lassies, next resistance on this gold breakout ( see Panda's chart ) is at 346 -347. Are you prepared for that kind of ride? JTFLICK: "Financial astrology only picks the turning points." Tha's a BIG "only" my man. If it DOES pick the turning points then if the move INTO the turning point has been down, we can extrapolate that the turning point will take us UP. & vice versa. Very handy adjunct to our trading it becomes, no? I'll take it. Wrap it up please.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:36 - ID#255285)
ahhem, with the greatest respect to my learnd friend..
Tort:- ) excuse me, i did not mean slepp, as in schlepp, but rather sleep, as in non-billable time:- ) )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:39 - ID#26793)
Earthquakes in South African mining areas.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:39 - ID#386245)
Gold down 4.90. Silver down 40 cents. Wouldn't want to be long silver futures right now. Donald --danged Poms don't know what they're doin".

Mike Sheller
(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:40 - ID#347447)
As an Aside...
JTFLICK: Be careful talking physics with RJ. He is under heavy sedation and is likely "channeling" some departed, discredited theoretician.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:43 - ID#255285)
now i know they're after me.. darn't computers...
Nick, why it was my pleasure.. I am so glad I resisted the temptation to post a mob of australian jokes gleaned from an aussie publicati
:- ) \\PS I am getting paranoid "cos I am getting wierd looking concertina words and lines in the comments field. Am probably offending all gold bugs.

If someone is collecting votes i'm not convinced, this is any more than

TED, wake up man, I am thinking aurator should go into hibernation,,, and you know what that means...:- ) )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:45 - ID#386245)
Bart--mate, now gold only down 1.60. Was that 4.90 down a computer glitch or have I had too many VB's tonight??

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:50 - ID#255285)
I'll have my trout with almond stuffing and a hint of lemon..
Nick, further to ZA IV.. suggest you look for "A Fool and His money" by Martin Baker Orion 1995 London. His was the metaphor about the villlage idiot, you know, which side of his jerkin...
He is also responsible for this little gem:

Q. What is a market anyway?

A. A group of Smart, Highly paid People with a Common Economic Purpose and the Collective Intelligence of a Baby Trout.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:52 - ID#386245)
Aurat... I got a long mem...o...ree, mate. Who say's Aussies can't under...under...stand more than two sylla...sylla...two of them little things that make up big words at a time!!! I find that highly offens...offens..., very mean of you, mate.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 06:56 - ID#26793)
MIKE SHELLER: We are going to have a nice day today, weather wise. Starting to look and feel like Fall around here now.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:00 - ID#255285)
@ invoking those rodents of disbelief..(HH Munro aka Saki))
Nick,, I agree, Most mean of me,, loved the aurat quip, what I might term a witty rip- ar-aurat-in-two, I deserved that. First round definately on me. Moving on Ok with you?? :- ) )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:06 - ID#386245)
Aurat...with ( or without ) your kind permission, I'm gonna quote a few Zurich Axioms tonight. Abbreviated and mispelled version. You want the whole hog--go to Aug.15th,19:36 and copy it!!

Major Axiom 1--On Risk

Put your money at risk. Don't be afraid to get hurt a little.

Minor Axiom 1

Always play for meaningful stakes. M.A. 2 Resist the allure of diversification ( because it creates situation where gains and losses cancel each other out ) .

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:14 - ID#57232)
Mike Sheller: I was not putting Financial Astrology down. I've see the daily comparison of the Bradley siderograph and the Dow Jones since 1987. The correlation of major turning points is uncanny for a ( now former ) sceptic such as me. What is puzzling are the inversion periods when the turning points are still there, but the two graphs go in opposite directions.
My reference to "only detects the turning points" was to the Bradley siderograph -- to me this is still very exciting. Incidentally, what I was getting at with "Niner" was ( in part ) due to the fact that mainstream Physics does not come close to explaining this affect, or why inland fresh water fish know the phase of the moon, even when it is on the other side of the earth! We need to sort the wheat from the chaff in the fringe Physics, or ( better yet ) come up with our own ideas, and test them. My poor understanding of this mysterious but wonderful process that you have studied is limited to the effect of the moon, whereas the Bradley siderograph clearly indicates that conjuctions, oppositions, and the locations of venus and ?mars in the heavens affects ( or is syncrhonized with ) the markets. I don't have a clue why Jupiter and the galactic center seems to have positive effects, and why Saturn seems to play a role opposite that of Jupiter. The galactic center and Jupiter are similar, because Jupiter is a failed sun. But why is Saturn different from Jupiter? Why also does the effect of the planets appear to be stronger than what you would expect from their relative distances? It is not an inverse square law whatever it is. I am simplifying, but a physicists are simple-mined and must start somewhere. I always enjoy your comments, even when they are tonque-in-cheek!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:19 - ID#26793)
A few weeks ago someone posted a chart showing the 1987 Dow pattern with a 1997 overlay. Has that been updated? Does anyone still have the site?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:19 - ID#386245)
Zurich Axiom 2 On Greed

Always take your profit too soon.

Sell too soon. Don't hope for winning streaks to go on and on. Don't stretch your luck.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:23 - ID#57232)
Donald: S&P should have been following Kitco. They should have downgraded Malaysia weeks ago! Perhaps they too busy getting out themselves to make the call?
I too am very worried about deflation. The plus is the massive dollar inflation that A Greenspan started -- is it realistic that he can control world-wide deflation? I hope that we will had a gold rally or a dollar twitch to warn us mre mortals. Best wishes -- we all may need them! Best of wishes to A Greenspan -- may he achieve the impossible!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:28 - ID#255285)
@ Gremlins-R-us
Yeah, Minor Axiom 1

Always play for meaningful stakes. M.A. 2 Resist the allure of diversification ( because it creates situation where gains and losses cancel each other out ) .

i love that one, cos I'd just been cramming for my Certificate of Investment Analysis part-time while full-time working in the markets in 1985-87, this paper was a funnymentalist's dream, the zenith of our learning was Markowitz's diversifed portfolio theory, the latest one and therefore the best. Diversify, different classes of assets in different countries. Yaddy~Yaddy Ya ( How's my Brooklynese Mike Sheller? )
I sat the final exam the saturday after the 1987 crash, one question specifically enquired about one's knowledge of Markowitz....
Remember Lord Kelvin?

Remember Fisher?

What a laugh......
a ha ha hah....

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:31 - ID#57232)
Donald: our posts crossed. I don't have a 1987/1997 price comparision, but I think this would be very important. We also need to follow the comparative behavior of interest rates and the dollar. What worries me is that ( using the retrospectoscope ) the behavior of the dollar and gold stocks gave several months warning in 1987. Will this stll hold with the acceleration of time due to our computer enhancements. Knowlege ( and disinformation ) is also moving around the world much faster. Perhaps what we need to do is analyze the process as much as we can, because the overlay may not match as well as we would like. My quess is that we will have time "compression" so that similar things will happen faster. I wish I had a clue how fast.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:32 - ID#386245)
Zurich Axiom 3

When the ship starts to sink, don't pray. Jump.

Learning to take losses is an essential speculative technique.. MOST never learn it. Take losses at once and move on. Take small losses to protect yourself from big ones.

In my very humble opinion, this is the most important of the Zurich Axioms. If you can't follow this one, you will NEVER make any money as a trader ( unless of course you have unlimited funds ) . U

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:33 - ID#26793)
CNBC has London FTSE up 120 on speculation that the British pound will be devalued and that the devaluation will be good for British exporters.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:34 - ID#255285)
my comments box looks pyschotic, 
JTFlick why have you lost your decimal point? This is not clumsiness I am sure. What is it then? Have you been stripped of your ho?
BTW haave enjoyed your deeply researched posts ;- )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:39 - ID#255285)
Gotta do something rad with the poota
au- rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:44 - ID#26793)
JTFLICK: Kitco has scooped CNBC many times, often days in advance.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:47 - ID#198328)
Hey Nick, thanks for that Skeptical Investor report. There is a lot of wisdom packed into that article!

The article clearly shows why gold is such a good investment now. Right now it looks like we are engaged in a deflationary spiral, but it would not be prudent to invest in T-bills because we don't know how much the gov't will reflate the economy and markets. They could spark off a hyperinflation, in which case those bills would be useless. Gold is useful in times of inflation and deflation. It is clear that hyperinflation and deflation are two sides of the same coin -- and that coin is financial excess and credit overexpansion.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:52 - ID#255285)
@ 4 letter words
Nick On ZA III, if you go to bed at night and you find you are relying on hope..iz a dirty, dirty word.
What happened earlier mate? gold was $ $322.10 -4.90. @ 6.30 Friday their time, now it looks "sensible"

Any high volumes in Aussie mining sectors these past 8 days or so?

Some day you're waking up to 'Up" therre.

Mike Sheller
(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:54 - ID#347447)
Physics, Psychics, what's the dif?
JTFLICK: I wasn't implying you were putting astrology down. I find you to be refreshingly open, intelligent, and, most importantly of all highly respectful of any kind of knowledge. I know that you can integrate anything new and seemingly "bizarre" into your own paradigms, and gain much from the synthesis. Yes, my tongue is often firmly in my cheek, but there is always a method to my madness. I know a brilliant young astrologer/trader in Florida, Rainsford T. Yang, who uses the Bradley and other very esoteric methodologies in his day-trading. His site is There is a private site that requires subscription. This fellow has great promise. I myself, as I have stated before, work off corporate horoscopes only. I do not work with transiting phenomena except inasmuch as they relate to a specific computer generated horoscope, be it person, corporation, or institution. But that is MY limitation, I am sure. Must start the day. Best of fortune to all!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:55 - ID#36965)
Joke of the morn
Ah ye gold and silver, how ye have fallen. Ted, its Friday at last. Here's my offering of the morning--an old one but one with a bit of a bite.

Two Irishmen were digging a ditch directly across from a brothel.
Suddenly, they saw a rabbi walk up to the front door, glance
around and duck inside.

"Ah, will you look at that ?" one ditch digger said. "What's our
world comin' to when men of the cloth are visitin' such places ?"

A short time later, a Protestant minister walked up to the door
and quietly slipped inside.

"Do you believe that ?" the workman explained. "Why, 'tis no
wonder the young people today are so confused, what with the
example clergymen set for them."

After a hour went by, the men watched as a Catholic priest
quickly entered the whorehouse.

"Ah, what a pity." the digger said, leaning on his shovel.
"One of the poor lasses must be dyin'."

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:56 - ID#255285)
i'm sure u understan, danged gremlins don't like golbugs :-))
Donald 07:44; And my hat's off to you and many other kind contriburors for that

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:57 - ID#261118)
@ breakfast
Donald, what's a carry over charge? ( last sentence ) .
Friday September 26 4:38 AM EDT
Hong Kong gold ends down on producer sales
HONG KONG, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - Hong Kong spot gold ended down on Friday from New York's previous close on producer selling, dealers said.

Bullion ended at US$325.70/326.20 on Friday compared to New York's close at US$326.90/327.40 per ounce on Thursday. ``There's been bits and pieces of producer selling business,'' said one trader. He added there would be more producer selling in gold should the price approach $330 per ounce.

``Producers are eternally optimistic,'' another source noted. ``If they have orders to sell at $330 and the price is $328, they'll change their orders to sell to $335 per ounce.''

Physical demand in Asia was stagnant, dealers said.

But some said they were not so bearish on gold, that prices had seen the worst and would trade higher between $330 and $338 per ounce by the end of the year.

The next key resistance level was seen at $328 per ounce.

Local tael gold ended HK$24 up at HK$3,008.

The carry over charge at the Chinese Gold and Silver Exchange Society dropped to -7.00 from its previous fix at -6.00.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 07:59 - ID#26793)
JTFLICK: Your post at 00:11 referenced Bell's Theorem and Paul Davies. Have you read his book, The Cosmic Blueprint? It discusses Bell on page 177 of my paperback edition. Interesting stuff but a bit over my head. A connected wave function for the entire universe. Any given particle is inseparably linked to the fate of the cosmos as a whole. It sort of explains why Mike Sheller gets it right so often.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:02 - ID#390214)
...good morning all....
WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - A former White House aide confirms that President Clinton solicited money from major
Democratic contributors in 1994 with phone calls from the White House, the Los Angeles Times reported Friday.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:04 - ID#198328)
@Young Goldbug
Sometimes I wonder if I am the only goldbug under 25. My generation is rabidly anti-gold. Every now and again I see the ( formerly ) soaring DOW and some friends would tell me about the 40% they made in their tech stock mutual funds and would generally laugh at my holdings of NEM, ABX plus 30 written XAU put contracts and I re-evaluate my investments. I think seriously about selling off part of the gold stuff and buy some of the tech stocks I understand well but I COULD NEVER DO IT. Gold is the most logical investment right now. No other investment makes as much sense, even oil stocks, and especially the typical stocks that my contemporaries are buying up. It is hard to believe that all of my brilliant colleagues are deluded when it comes to their invetments and I am the only sane one, but it is what I must conclude when they are buying Microsoft at 54 times earnings while shunning the incredibly undervalued gold stocks.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:04 - ID#235389)
Anyone notice the similarity between Scotty#289289 at 23;42 and LGB ?
As for "moi", moi thinks the game is on again.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:05 - ID#364147)
@ Nick(C),Aurator,Scotty and Shanoon
By popular demand,I am back....Nick ( C ) ( 5:47 ) Couldn't have said it better meself mate!!...Aurator: I'm up and so is my damn ISP for a change!..Scotty: brrrrrr and the blasted moths ate some holes in the OLD long underware....Shanoon: Bring it on buddy....

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:14 - ID#364147)
@ slooooow kitco
Is Kitco bein slooow for anyone else or am I bein singled out for more of my past sins??...S+P futures up 3.90 and Ft-100 up 135 on "talk" they will join EMU....Mornin Donald!....Weather:58 degrees ( heat wave ) and partial sun with a gentle breeze commin off the ocean...S+P futures up 4.25...Jim-Bob Rogers on squawk box...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:14 - ID#364147)
@ slooooow kitco
Is Kitco bein slooow for anyone else or am I bein singled out for more of my past sins??...S+P futures up 3.90 and Ft-100 up 135 on "talk" they will join EMU....Mornin Donald!....Weather:58 degrees ( heat wave ) and partial sun with a gentle breeze commin off the ocean...S+P futures up 4.25...Jim

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:18 - ID#255285)
i is saturday....
Tort you have a golden tongue mate :=}}

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:21 - ID#386245)
Organ, thanks mate--but your thanks belong to Aurator for the original post. I reckon anyone contemplating trading should print out the Zurich Axioms, put them up somewhere near their computer and read them every couple of days. They will work trading ANYTHING not just PM's.

Aurator ( see--three syllables ) -thanks again mate. Great stuff. Aussie gold stocks were up very nicely today on reasonable volumes, but nothing like what they're gonna do if the 99 gold balloons take off!!! I'm into Normandy ( NDY ) and Acacia ( AAA ) , both top gold stocks plus call options and I'm even "holding" some wanna be goldies, but I am "holding" with a hair trigger on my sell button and a whole heap of humility if things turn sour. I don't want to get zugswanged out before a big rise so will have to use a bit of good judgement whatever happens. You gotta be in it to win it, right mate? Please DON'T remind me of the Aussie/Kiwi rugby league score. I don't wanna know about it mate.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:22 - ID#261118)
@ Organ
Eventually friend Organ, the shoe will be on the other foot; The hard part is to know when to go without shoes...

P.S. when your time comes, don't brag: educate.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:24 - ID#288274)

TED: Go to-
select Jon Carroll, then Previous Columns, and read 9/1/97. BTW-This is Fan Appreciation Weekend at Candlestick Park. Really!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:28 - ID#255285)
all right, i'm not just paranoid, the bas%$ds are after me. My comments look like spaghetti, now that may be a fair comment, but this is a wierd 1999 censorship George Orwell is an anachronism///
Ted: we got a strange quote while you were stacking the Look back in anger. ( this is an obscure reference to a defining NZ novel ) i like what you did to my precious last night,
But I think it's a Witchy, Witchy woman market..
Got to finish above "a nice round US$330" for me.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:38 - ID#390214)
Middle East
JERUSALEM ( Reuter ) - Israeli troops trained this week for a possible
all-out war with the Palestinians, including the prospect of Palestinian fighters
storming Jewish settlements, Israel Radio reported today.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:41 - ID#390214)
Middle East (Iraq)
BAGHDAD ( Reuter ) - An official Iraqi newspaper called for "suitable
retaliation" today against Turkey's latest military incursion into northern Iraq.
"We shall not tolerate ( this ) and we support suitable retaliation to defend
our people in Iraq's Kurdistan and to defend our boundaries," declared
al-Iraq newspaper in a front-page editorial.
"Our leadership, at the top of which is our symbolic leader Saddam
Hussein, and our armed forces are able to settle the situation...and defend
our frontiers and national sovereignty," said the editorial, entitled: "Let us

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:42 - ID#386276)
Best Au/Stox indicator yet:
Spoos traders at 'avid' talking gold!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:42 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
Shanoon:I'll check it out bro and go YANKEES! Mornin Tort!! I liked IT...and!...EB:WAKE UP!...Aurator:huh?? GDP revised down from 3.6% to 3.3%...price deflator up a tad though...Comex: Gold down 1.30; silver down 1.5 cents;PL down .90 and PA down .60....Pound plungin+FT-1oo soarin ( up 148 ) ...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:43 - ID#261118)
@ skool
Organ, put yourself in the "shoes" of Sir Issac Newton, think of the age in which he lived,all that he did'nt know; the volumes of information he had'nt at hand yet he proved to be one of history's greatest minds.
He also bought South Sea Tradeing Co. hand over fist and lost a sizeable fortune. Quote Sir Issac ( sort of ) ,"I can predict the movements of the universe, but not the madness of the minds of men".

Doug Schott
(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:49 - ID#215196)

Greetings to all from an old goldbug inTennessee.

Has anyone seen historical spot gold or gold producer stock prices displayed in constant US dollars?

For example, I suspect that 1997 Hecla Mining ( HL on the NYSE ) stock at $US5&1/2 would be around $2 or so if converted into 1987 dollars.

My point is that the stock is really at a value less than half of what it was the last time we had a major low. So it recent low is in the weeds.

Any thoughts?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:51 - ID#255285)
@ I hope I get this through the thouglice
TED The quotes are going wierd. beware mate

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:53 - ID#255285)
@ dimension n
TEd I typed that as thought police.
Tank goodness i clink, such a pretty sound. my precious...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 08:55 - ID#354133)
Gold down so far...325.7 ( Oct ) ..

JTFlick - The U.S. Govt. has a special program to train and hire PhDs ( mainly physics & related fields ) , primarily for research in labs and weapons development. There are existing and proposed "systems" that have been developed that can create the "effects" that are described in the Book of Revelations. And, no, they are not in Janes.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:02 - ID#386245)
G'day Nick@Aussie. Got your e-mail, thanks mate. Yes I would like a copy of that share program. Will have to get the software to run it--but sounds like an excellent innovation. You'll have me doin' "homework" soon, mate. Thought I'd left that all behind!! cheers, Nick

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:14 - ID#26793)
BADGER: I don't know what "carry over" is in the Chinese gold trade.
TED: I am having the same problem with Kitco, for periods of time, then it clears up. It seemed like heavy traffic during peak times yesterday and once today. Got to get some painting done today. Ugh.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:17 - ID#386245)
Who's this Jim Rogers guy? Just saw him on CNBC dumping a truckload of manure on gold. "Don't buy until the cb's panic and dump all their gold on the market".

ninrty niner
(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:26 - ID#389300)

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:29 - ID#26793)
Bank of Mexico says it is "fine tuning" the peso, not devaluing.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:35 - ID#390214)
...Starr is being methodical & unyielding...will he succeed?
An obstruction-of-justice investigation by Whitewater
independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr spread Thursday
into the White House with the issuance of subpoenas for
records from President Clinton, first lady Hillary Rodham
Clinton and several key White House aides.
. . . . The federal subpoenas, coming after weeks of little public
notice in Mr. Starr's ongoing investigation, were quietly issued
by the Whitewater grand jury in Little Rock and seek "all
records of communications or conversations or meetings" the
Clintons, White House lawyers and other top administration
aides had last year with key figures in the Whitewater inquiry.
. . . . The subpoenas, according to lawyers and others close to
the Starr probe, focus on a critical juncture last year in the
Whitewater investigation -- February through September --
when prosecutors actively were seeking evidence from several
key witnesses.
. . . . Meanwhile, a new grand jury also has been sworn in
Washington to hear additional evidence in the probe. It met for
the first time on Thursday.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:44 - ID#257148)
@ play,, ignore golbufs, I is home on the range
One of my neighbours, that runs a crooked fair-ground & side show scam that trucks around our fair NZ islands taking money off widas an kchildrun, has named it's place The Alamo... so, here, i have fulfilled an impt goal. I live within 100 yards of the Alamo..
Where that messanger get to??

Oh.  The Yellow Rose of Texas...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:49 - ID#257148)
@ it's good night from him...
Goodnight All Happy Trails
Under 325 Fridy close, my precious.
Be Vigilant mes amis..

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:53 - ID#390214)
Money Supply increase again (M2,M3)
US M-2 money supply up $7.3 bln in Sept 15 week

NEW YORK, Sept 25 ( Reuter ) - U.S. M-2 money supply rose $7.3 billion in the September 15 week to $3,984.9 billion, the
Federal Reserve said.

The broader M-3 measure rose $9.9 billion to $5,238.1 billion. M-1 was down $6.6 billion to $1,055.4 billion, the Fed said.

The Fed said the four-week moving average of M-2 was $3,980.8 billion versus $3,976.1 billion in the previous week.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 09:53 - ID#344211)
what purpose do our assigned numbers serve?
how are they used? can i change my number?
are they MANIPULATED?[sic]

chaos and flux, accompanied by el nino, have
begun their journey to the far corners of the

looking at the big picture--------

el nino fluxing foodstuffs
chaos with war in the middle east affecting petro-chemimcals
irrational valuations for stocks create crash scenario
currency crisis worldwide ( goldbugs know about paper! )
government crisis from criminal activity and a-moral attitudes
dis-enfrancisement of the youth in western cultures due to liberals
controlling the various medias. ( tv )
sig's ( gays, now, lulac, naacp, etc... ) demanding ( and getting ) recognition
career politicians and lawyers pushing THEIR agendas instead of OURS.

the list is endless. the point is ---

for what-ever reasons, we are at a major cusp
in our societal evolution. chaos and flux have
the upper hand, and their position is added to
daily, due to mans actions.

"for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"
albert einstein

the opposite reaction will cause pm's to soar, as
chaos and flux roar.

cherokee!; ) driver-of-the-smoke-signal-mobile-for-all-time------

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:01 - ID#390214)
...changes are being made....slow but deliberate.....
The Hong Kong government has decided to banish
English as the main teaching language in schools.

The education department announced on Friday
that schools will start teaching in Chinese from next
year and that head teachers who refuse to comply
could face jail.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:02 - ID#194225)
@sibling rivalry
FDPMX may best FSAGX today, for a change.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:11 - ID#227276)
@ home
Donald: CNBC furthering the rumor that Britian may be joining the
EU and that is giving the FTSI the surge.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:16 - ID#354133)
Cherokee - I know you were just kidding. That quote was WAY before Einstein.... Have a fig Newton.... ; )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:17 - ID#364147)
@ just sold more stox
Just lightened the load a tad....Cherokee: right on dude!!..Aurator: Gotcha! ( have YOU been drinkin?? ) ...Donald: Now you can see why many painters are!..Nick ( C ) Jimmy Rogers was George Soro's trader and he is a so-called expert on international investing...Wrote the book "Investment Biker"....

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:18 - ID#338452)


Did you notice the numbers for the inflows into mutual funds this week?

Apparently the weekly average lately has been 3.6B ( and that seems to just keep it even re the DOW ) . So let's call that .7B per day to keep it afloat. This last week ( ending Wednesday ) brought in 2.1B and the week before that was at 4.1B. The talking heads on CNBC are crowing that the amounts coming in are still "enormous and continuing". EH? Since when does a drop of a 50% income below last weeks input and 25% below the average constituts "enormous and continuing" ? 700 MILLION a DAY of NEW MONEY to keep it afloat! Can you believe it'll go up as they say? ( :- ) )


(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:32 - ID#364147)
@ Shanoon
Shanoon: Good article buddy.....Am a Yankees fan and want anyone BUT the Braves to win the NL....Ted Turner=PUKE...ditto Jane!...XAU down 1.19 but not bad considering "paper" is soaring ( up 77 ) ...U of Michigan cosumer sentiment @ 106 ( up from 104.4 ) ....Dodgers suk too!!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:34 - ID#246224)
All - A wordy, meadering rumination and propsal for your comment. Unfortunately FTP didn't work for me so I will post as a paste to post:

Of Currencies, Gold and A Modest Proposal
26 Sept. 1997

As of 1985 the US$ has been used as the world reserve currency.
In this role it has become the central point or 'gate' to the
valuation of other currencies and units of value ( tangible
commodities ) . Pricing is done in US$ and other currencies are
related to tangible commodities through their relationship to the
US$. Though Gold and Silver retain their intrinsic and historical
value as stores of wealth they are often seen in terms of their
"value" in US$. This perspective gives the US$ the center point
and makes, at least psychologically, precious metals a peripheral
and variable material.

If you do not believe that the US$ is trustworthy ( ie - from the
abuse of increasing its supply and thereby decreasing the
relative value of outstanding US$ ) then you may prefer to
establish other 'gates' or currencies to be used in tandem and in
competition with the US$ as a medium of pricing.


Because of the size of the US economy and its involvement in
import/export trade the US$ became the defacto and later
politically acknowledged reserve currency. Now Europe, in its
political and monetary unions, will present an economic entity
which is LARGER AND MORE STABLE ( in its monetary regulation ) than
the United States.

These two power blocks may be joined at a later date by an asian
grouping. But the most imminent development is the introduction
of the EURO in 1999 as a competitive currency to the US$. Whereas
the US$ was untroubled by complaints about US government debt
mismanagement because there really was no alternative to its use,
now a new vehicle will arise which will offer an avenue for
expressing that discontent through market migration to the EURO.
The transition period from the US$ monopoly as the single reserve
currency to it being one of two alternative reserve currencies in
relation to tangible commodities will be VERY TUMULTUOUS INDEED.

In fact the recent state and trends of US government debt,
corporate debt and personal debt ( ie - read this a total 'supply'
of US$ used to purchase tangibles or make speculative
investments, etc. ) would VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST ( Please get a big
hammer to drive home this point. ) that the US$ will quickly be
cast off as the world reserve currency and devalued in proportion
to its inflated quantity.

What this means is that all tangible, mobile commodities not
exclusively dominated by US production will skyrocket in price in
US$. This includes oil and its products, agricultural produce and
derivatives, industrial output and precious metals. Inflation
within the US will become uncontrollable by government agencies
regardless of the level of interest rates. Gross, rapid capital
flows motivated by fear and short term safety seeking will
distort the US economy in both inflationary and deflationary ways
in different sectors at different times. All vulnerable financial
concerns ( governments, corporations and individuals ) will sink
into bancrupcy as financial and monetary stresses crush their
respective organizations and capital flows.


From this moment let's take a step back from the current myopia
in which the US$ is the international medium of pricing. Let's
recognize that gold and silver are, in a long term historical
sense, the fulcrum upon which other currencies totter. Instead of
saying "gold is worth US$325 per ounce" let's say " US$10.54 is
worth 1 gram of gold". This is more than semantics. It is the
rearrangement of perspective from a US$ bias to a gold bias. Gold
is the least inflatable of currencies since its production verses
its current stockpile is limited.

In an earlier time American monetary policy pegged the value od a
US$ at 64.3 cents is worth 1 gram of gold ( $20/oz ) . The current
level of 'gold worth' of the US$ is $10.54 per gram of gold. In
this we see that the US$ has depreciated by about 94% in its gold
worth at current prices. The point here is to encourage the
perspective that "gold worthiness" is virtually static where as
paper currencies can appreciate or depreciate according to the
markets willingness to release a unit of gold. This would give us
a STANDARD to judge the value of relativistic currencies and

I do not believe that gold will return to its place as the
primary medium of exchange. It will have a more important role as
the STANDARD POINT OF REFERENCE for all variable units of value.
Whether the US$, the EURO or both are intermediate 'gates' for
pricing commodities, gold will continue to be the ultimate
arbiter of their ( US$, EURO, etc ) respective stability and

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:43 - ID#377390)
@ To 2(194225)/ FDPMX vs FSAGX
2 ( 194225 ) : If there is to be a true trend change in most asset classes then there also must be a trend change in FDPMX vs. FSAGX. FSAGX has been outperforming FSAGX since the last major gold rally ended in Feb '96. The ratio of FSAGX/FDPMX reached an all time high of 1.5363 yesterday. I chart that ratio on a daily, weekly close, and monthly close basis. I will truly begin to get excited when those line charts begin to go south.

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:43 - ID#244209)
Uncle Allen's Wild Post

A wild, wild post, Allen. I should have seen the similarity
months ago. The change from U.S. monopoly to U.S./Euro/Asian
oligopoly is exactly the right evolutionary move.

It's exactly what should be happening. It mimics the John Law
world of 1720, with roughly equal world powers of France, England
and Spain.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:50 - ID#390214)
More...for the Dipsters
...more Bargoons to come....Dipsters get ready......
MORE than 80 companies have already told investors
that their earnings for the third quarter were not going
to be up to expectations.

And by far the greatest number of disappointments are
coming from the technology sector.

That's a pretty brisk pace of negative
pre-announcements, but the disappointments are not
being followed by analysts reducing their earnings

In other words, analysts at brokerage firms seem to be
ignoring the warnings coming from the companies they

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:54 - ID#224149)
World without end- Intangible as Gold reflects the aspirant's eyes and yet to perceive this primitive substance as worthy of value is but animal man "Caught up into paradise" is but a warning of the future death of greed.Deception,fraud,scandal,disgrace and a cup of old English tea will bring 1999 as the year of dismay.Bart as always great page and now a number I can paste on my forehead of thought.Happy Trails

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:55 - ID#244209)
Cure for Organ Self-Doubts

Sorry, I'm not going to take the time for format this into
an Australian weenie roast -

Organ - you're doing modelling, right? So. Surprise and
amaze your Microsoft-buying friends with a chart of the RATE OF
CHANGE in Microsoft's profits for the past seven years.

Followed by an entree from the _Scientific American_ on the
economic cycle of the semi-conductor industry, published sometime
in '95. I'll see if I can find the exact date and article.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:57 - ID#257148)
Today will be stranger than you can imagine
TED..cave canem...

cherokee, not that i've got anything about you, nor even care one dingo dropping about your ravings, but, I've heard some things here.

Things like you are misrepresenting yourself in terms of your *race*.
Like, anthropology is a subject I'm not so unfamiliar with
Now, I live in a land that was first colonised about 1000 years ago. A group of brave pacific Polynesian voyagers who made the journey that took many, many weeks, suffering, severe privation, they steered by constellations of names we find hard to pronounce, but their beauty///..oh the beauty of the stars, the songs that help them remember the voyage the ancestors. The mechanisms.. of wood and flax..octants..measurements. accuracy not seen until "our" 19tjh Century, songs, waita, legend in song, story upon story...legend and song..

The songs said they once found a land of plenty, a land they named the Land of The Long White Cloud. Aotearao... [[AY-OH-TEA_ARR_OH_AH]] we call it New Zealand - i think we should change it back eh?- These Polynesian adventurers, they call themselves Maori .. "The people".... I am not a Maori, .... I would never dream to pass myself as a Maori, ( ( The Maori have a millenium of oratorial tradition, [I am humbled} ) ) It has been suggested that you are not a Cherokee, What say you, follower of Carlos Castenada..?
Are you an Indian? or are you a fraud::? A Fraud, Like Castenada?
If you are not a Cherokee Indian, you should be ashamed

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:58 - ID#335192)
@4 you
LONDON, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - Gold prices more than held their ground after the expiry of over the counter ( OTC ) options on Friday afternoon and some dealers even forecast a further thrust on the upside.

At the 1330 GMT option expiry, the spot bid price was around $325.70 per ounce, offering an immediate return to any holder exercising a $325.00 call option.

Gold was fixing at $326.65 per ounce up from $325.45 at the morning fix and $324.60 on Thursday afternoon. It was the highest gold fixing since August 14.

"Some heavy producer selling out of Australia was well absorbed earlier at above $325.00. If the price doesn't fall back now, this is looking quiet constructive," a dealer said.

The $325.00 call was the most prominently traded option in the expiring OTC series. Whatever selling the expiry involved was well absorbed and by the fixing, the market was pushing ahead.

"Talk was that a U.S. house bought over a million ounces when the price was on the way up yesterday. He may have been the buyer again today," one dealer said.

Technically supportive was the price breaking through a trendline from around $380.00 in November last year.

Resistance from early July around $330.00/$329.00 suggested $328.50 looked feasible as the next target and if that broke, then $340.00 was plausible, according to techncial analysts.

That rate of climb might be enough to keep producer selling at bay until a level is reached, dealers said. "The producers tend to stand back when the price gets a bit of steam behind it," one dealer said.

Also encouraging buying was a weaker dollar and growing doubts about the sustainability of the U.S. stock market level and the yield rates for U.S. long dated bonds which had hitherto enjoyed the focus of investors' attention.

"The feeling after the G7 ( last weekend ) is that the core G3 banks are trying to jaw the dollar down, not up which is short term positive for gold," one economist at a major bank said.

He added that the downside for gold was backed by "very significant and well tested support" at $319.00-$320.00.

Silver was ignored at around $4.77/$4.79, down a cent and palladium was only steady at an unchanged $192.00/$194.00.

However platinum prices were swept downwards by profit taking following a climb from around $403.00 at the beginning of the month. Platinum was indicated at $428.00/$430.00 down $9.00.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 10:58 - ID#390214)
Simply awesome post! ( 10:34 )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:05 - ID#390214)
Howard fights for his life
...deserves everything he's getting....shouldn't sold his gold....he's suffering the curse of a .....
The Federal Government is in disarray as ministers and
backbenchers question its capacity to bounce back from
a week in which it was forced to accept resignations from
three ministers and its principal political strategist to stem
the travel rorts crisis.

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:22 - ID#244209)
Aurator Adds A New Wing to the Ausoleum

Aurator - will you take a Cajun in lieu of a Cherokee?

Come on, sing with me ....

So don't delay...

Act now.

Supplies are running out....

Allow, if you still alive,
six to eight years
for the bears
to arrive.

If the offer is shunned....

You might as well be shorting

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:24 - ID#257148)
jes try it...
Who Cares; Teeth b4 tongue renge kyo

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:24 - ID#386276)
Aurator. Who them?
Land of plenty? Yeah, plenty of Mori-Ori's more like it. Yum!!!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:29 - ID#25588)
Savage - Dec gold - That 336 number isn't as important as it was a couple of months ago. It was based on a downward Gann Line. That line was crossed on Tues at 323 and closed above it. Next objective over the next of couple weeks is 350-355. Buy any pull back under 325.

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:32 - ID#244209)
Hi-Tech EmpAUrium

So, like, hi-tech earnings are dropping. Predictable. Cost of
Information leads Price down. I still say we need a whopper
shake-out in the hi-tech economy-driving wonder before a Crash
is an irresistable force, surprassing even Greenspan's powers.

I should post a graph here, but I imagine everyone has a good
imagination, with all this focusing on the Au-pocolypse. : )

So don't delay. Act now. Supplies are running out...

Imagine the cost of information projected out three years,
at a constant rate of drop. Imagine price of information
as another line trailing along. Difference between cost
and price is profit margin.

Now, imagine that many, many hi-tech companies take it as
faith that the cost of information is a physical constant
somewhat on the order of speed of light. Ergo, there's no
need to track minor changes in the rate of drop.

Now imagine that the rate of drop in the COST curve flat-lines,
i.e. the COI is no longer falling. What happens to profit

Right, they shrink down until the POI line hits the COI line,
after which the company is the red.

And nobody knows it for, oh, perhaps six months... a year...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:41 - ID#426220)
Yesterday witnessed VERY BROAD-BASED reversal of GOLD FUNDS INDEX by rising 3.13. Index composed of 10 global Gold & Silver Funds - portfolios contain SEVERAL HUNDRED mining firms:

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:42 - ID#194225)
@a loss
Allen, the world hates absolutes, e.g., gold. Hopefully, this is undergoing some reform in the hearts and minds of Earthlings

Re: FDPMX. As much as I hate to shamelessly ask for help, preferring rather to freely give and freely receive in the delightful spontaneous interchange that characterizes this site, I am looking for help in tracking FDPMX value. Fido posts the top ten holdings as of 6/30/97, which is not much help since it is no doubt different now, and since these holdings at that time constituted only around 50% of the fund. The closest I can come to finding trading symbols for these ( I may have some correct ) is:

GTCMY.......Great Central Mines LTD
NDG.........Meridian Gold Inc Inst Recpt
( ? ) VAALY....Vaal Reefs Expl&Mng Adv New
( ? ) JCI.AL...JCI Limited
GGO.........Getchell Gold Corp
EN.TO.......Euro-Nevada Mining Corp Ltd
FN.TO.......Franco-Nevada Mining Corp Ltd
NEM.........Newmont Mining Corp
( ? ) SWC......Stillwater Mining Co 144A
CTR.........Centaur Mining and Exploratn Ltd ( Australian )

Are there any build-your-portfolio-and-view-it sites that link to
the Australian Exchange as well as Canada and US?

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:43 - ID#244209)
Aurator Chi Berater Ying Liberator

Okay, okay. How about a Seminole event?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:45 - ID#257148)
I remember the smell of the black powder smoke. and the stand in the street at the turn of a Joke.....Guy Glark.. thanks Guy...
I is ratted & is 03:40 sat a,m, aotearoa time..
Lissen to Jason Eckland.. anybudyy??

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:52 - ID#244209)
Off to the Rock Farm

Great. Six months at the Rock Farm. I can hardly wait until
the Crash "liberates" thousands of competing IT workers.

It must be punishment from God, if the bastard exists. I
suppose it could juxtaposed with hubris. My motivational
warp drive is definitely running at sublight speed today.

Screw it.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:55 - ID#386276)
More from Nick Chase on Y2K and medicare

And for all with a dish - pasted from Gary North's domino page

"Mike Phillips, a bond trader, has put it well ( pp. 15-16 ) :
I am a bond trader. I work out of my home. I have a satellite dish on the roof which takes quotes which originate on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade, are relayed by computer to a private vendor, converted to their system then uploaded to the satellite. I then receive them and convert them in my computer to a screen display. Using this information, I make trades.
As near as I can tell, I am going to be out of business on 01/01/00. There are no firm plans for any link in this complex chain to be Y2K compliant. Even worse, fixing these various links will not help if they are not COMPATIBLE with each other. Before the vendor can fix his system, he must know what the Chicago Board of Trade will do with their system. Only then, can I begin to consider what to do with my system. Of course, the CBOT is only ONE of many markets my vendor must deal with, each with its own computer system.
But, enough about me. I don't expect you to care about the bond market or me. This was meant as an example. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that no one reading this ever even considered something like my personal situation in connection with the Y2K problem. Likewise, there are probably a hundred thousand other unique situations that aren't being factored in either. "

Steve - Perth
(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:55 - ID#284170)
Howdy Cherokee & Ted & crew. Am back from my trip around the Kimberleys ( the far North West of Western Australia ) . Saw clients between Broome & Kununurra & Wyndham. In Wyndham they said that the Port was very quiet due to few live cattle being exported. This was due to the fact that the Indonesion currency had devalued by over 20%, & they had stopped buying our live Australian cattle. An interesting side effect.
My view is if the Dow fails to reach 8300 soon, the game is over. Am not totally sure yet.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 11:58 - ID#22956)
P!ssed-up! on a friday night...
OZ/NZ - You mates are raging. Sat. 2:00a.m. over there?? Still sippin' the Bitter? Sounds like fun. Aurator...I think that Nick has a wooden leg. Watch out if you're goin' toe to toe ;-} You have given me much to read this a.m. Fri. G'day Mates!!

TED - What's all this about YOU being the only west-coast-baseball-fan?? Shanoon doesn't read ALL the posts do he/she ( no offense, the name is Genderless... ) . GIants/Braves Suk! Say what you must about the Doggers but don't ever talk down my Sadres ;-} I'll waft a low-flying-burrito later...

Gold is a dog just like OJ... it is NOT YET the moon? and back down to plummet through the Earth's Mantle...oh my...

Plat is setting itself for another run...maybe :~]

BP - I'm buying today with ONE hand...oh YES! salute the Queen!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 12:14 - ID#432214)
Royal Oak Mines
Deutsche Morgan Grenfell ( DMG ) update.
As indicated in my earlier posts DMG shorted RYO in April and May 1997 at a price of $3.75. By my count they should be over 500,000 short.

ROYAL OAK IS ON THE MOVE ( Up to $3.45 today ) .....SKIN THOSE F&&&&&G CATS!
They have been BUYING LATELY ( yesterday ) 39,800 @ 3.27
Today ( sofar ) 5500 @ 3.34

September 1 to September 23, 46,600 @2,80

(Fri Sep 26 1997 12:21 - ID#22956)
@ ValderrrrrrAMA...
C'mon Yanks!! Take the Piss out of the Euro's. Hey, Down-Under's. Do you guys count as Euro's?? ;-}} C'mon Fredieeeeeeeee!! yahooooo!!!

On ( channel ) USA right NOW board the Jet to Spain

(Fri Sep 26 1997 12:49 - ID#215211)
Just trying to find out what my number that Bart has assigned.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 12:55 - ID#390214)
Asia vs US
East versus West: how the markets
are uniting Asia against the US
Japan, the only nation on earth that approaches the US in
economic weight, chose this moment to launch a
proposal for a new emergency rescue fund of $US100
billion ( $138 billion ) -- to be financed and used
exclusively by the countries of Asia.

The idea is a very shrewd one. First, it is designed to
restore to Japan's smaller neighbours some sense of
control over their own destinies. It could be used to
defend national currencies against speculators.

Second, it is a statement of Asian solidarity, a gathering
of friends in the face of adversity.

Third, it is a political rebuke to the US -- which was not
invited to join.

And fourth, it is potentially a mechanism for Japan to
increase its economic and political leverage over the rest
of Asia.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:31 - ID#287279)

Y2K Success Formula: Start Your Repair in 1992 or Earlier!

This story from INFORMATIONWEEK ( Sept. 22 ) reports on the semiconductor industry, which supposedly has "all but completed successful implementations of their year 2000 remedies, some of which were undertaken more than five years ago." First, nobody is compliant. "All but" isn't. Second, this is a high-tech industry. Third, it got started before de Jager's "Doomsday" article appeared. Fourth, and most important, these firms did not adopt the "repair code" strategy. They adopted a "switch to a new platform" strategy: SAP or client-server. They scrapped their legacy systems. It's way too late for that now.
To do this, they had to make sure their data could be transferred. As
one person interviewed here admits, his company is still not sure this
has been done successfully. "Moving multibillion-dollar companies from legacy to open and mobile systems, worldwide, is a nontrivial job," [Texas Instrument's CIO Pallab] Chatterjee says. "A lot of attention over the next year will be paid to ensuring we made the transition and didn't lose anything in the process. We're basically jacking the engine from one
car to another while they're still moving." Here was this industry's key to "all but success": abandon legacy systems. This is what most companies have not done, cannot do in the time remaining, and are now pretending does not need to be done. "Reengineering with new applications has emerged as the primary mechanism semiconductor manufacturers use to solve 80% of their year 2000 problems. Over the past year nearly all of the major semiconductor manufacturers have deployed massive, fast-track
implementations of general business solutions from vendors such as
SAP, PeopleSoft, Baan, and J.D. Edwards."

(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:36 - ID#194311)
War, Guns, Hellfire, Brimstone
The brave new era has arrived ( again ) , east vs west, racism, eco-bigots, faggot then as now, the guy with the gold wins.
Only a cowboy like SORROWS could have started it.

Radio: Israel Trains for War
Israel Radio says Israeli troops trained this week for a
possible all-out West Bank war with Palestinians which might
involve PLO fighters storming Jewish settlements. Middle East
peace moves have been in crisis for six months over Israeli
settlement building in the West Bank, home to more than a
million Arabs, and over Palestinian militant suicide attacks
that have killed 20 Israelis. The Israel Defense Forces refused
to comment on the report.

Turkey Ignores Iraq Anger in Raid
Turkish troops backed by air power positioned themselves deep
in northern Iraq, disdaining Iraqi outrage at Turkey's latest
drive against Kurdish guerrillas. A military official says the
troops have killed 44 Kurdistan Workers Party ( PKK ) rebels while
losing three soldiers in the operation so far. Around 15,000
troops are taking part in the push against the PKK, a Turkish
Kurd group that often operates from northern Iraq in its fight
for self-rule in southeastern Turkey. Turkey's army chief says
his troops will withdraw from the region once their mission
against the rebels is completed.

Quake Damages Italy's Basilica
At least eight people were killed when two earthquakes tore
through central Italy within hours of each other today,
partially destroying one of the country's famed medieval
churches and reducing many villages to rubble. Two friars were
killed when part of the vault of the 13th century Basilica of
St. Francis crashed to the ground after a tremor shook the
region. The deaths were confirmed by rescue workers, who were
pumping air into the Basilica in an effort to clear dust, which
was hampering efforts to reach those feared trapped. The extent
of damage to priceless frescoes, which line the walls of the
Renaissance Basilica, was unknown although an earlier tremor was
known to have opened cracks in them.

Sumatra Plane Crash Kills 234
An Indonesian Airbus passenger jet crashed in northern
Sumatra, an area hit by smog from bush fires. State television
quotes the transport minister as saying all 234 passengers and
crew were killed. It is Indonesia's worst air disaster. There
was no official word on the cause of the crash, but residents in
nearby Medan say the area was shrouded in a haze from forest
fires, though officials said the airport was open at the time.
Airport sources say the plane lost contact with the Medan
control tower about 15 minutes before it was due to land in
Medan. The plane was coming from Jakarta.

Spud Master
(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:38 - ID#273112)
fitting puzzle pieces together...
nomercy = vronsky???

Bart, why don't the other two Kitco boards have ID#'s as well? I don't see the Vronkster poster here any more - but he/she/it is over on the Kitco stock/metals board.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:56 - ID#390214)
Spud Master's not so elementary Watson...I thank you though for putting me in the same 'illustrious' class.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:56 - ID#320102)
Looking for charts comparing '97-'87? Try Fiend's Bears Home Page. He has several links, one includes '29. He also has a new cartoon today. It's good!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 13:58 - ID#57232)
Aurator: Re-Your concern over my losing my decimal ID. I think Bart altered the labeling criteria. Unfortunately, I still have several ID#'s even when I am on the same computer ( work one, I think ) . One of these ID#'s is the same as the one at home.
To the best of my knowlege, I have created all of the JTFlick entries with in the last six days ( all in this universe!! ) . Isn't it fortunate that one can still identify a poster by writing style, as well as by handle or ID#.
If you had a fractional ID#, you also might find yourself wondering what fractional universe you were in! Perhaps it's just as well we don't have them anymore.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 14:20 - ID#57232)
To all: Today Israel plans for war with Palestinians. Unfortunately we can't ignore trouble on the side of the earth opposite SE Asia. Things will quiet down during the winter months, but we still have October.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 14:28 - ID#354133)
At the risk of annoying a few by interjecting a non-investment topic, I would like to recommend a book titled "Guns, Crime, and Freedom" by Wayne LaPierre ( forward written by Tom Clancy ) . I couldnt remember the spelling of the authors name the other day, so I apologize for the belated offering. This book is a must for those who value their right to own firearms. The first two chapters should be mandatory reading for all U.S. citizens.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:04 - ID#346140)
Kitco fans - quite an educational experience to be had by using the "way-back" machine! I've learned quite a bit by checking the goings-on at kitco a year ago ( change 97 to 96 in the query ) it's fun, free & easy. The Kitco core has been posting a looong time - keep the faith. :- )

Maybe JM was a year off? see: Date: Thu Sep 26 17:51

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:11 - ID#348397)
I read yesterday that gold was supposed to drop today following yesterday's option-expiry-related blip. Rogers on CNBC has nothing flattering to say. Pretty darn good day then.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:23 - ID#57232)
Mike Sheller: 9/26/97 AM comment. I appreciate the compliment, and the name of the astrikos web page. I got the Bradley data from this site, but did not know the name of the creator. Some day I hope to have the time to write my own updated Bradley siderograph -- don't have as much time to write programs as as once did.
gunrunner:Re-8:53am post. Your comment about our government hiring young physicists to work on unusual projects sounds plausible. I worked for the government for some time myself. What worries me is the we have "good guys" and not so "good guys" within our government, and it is unclear to me who is doing what and for what reason. Some of these projects may not be for the benefit of the American people ( and the world ) , and may be only for the gain of a small faction within the government. I'm hoping we can stay in a peacetime posture long enough for a change in the political environment to clear the air. It worries me when I hear about devices to duplicate the revelations, or activies to emulate "the second coming", because that suggests the desire of a group of individuals to control others. This is a negative process, which can only lead to the detriment of humankind. The strength of humankind rests on the good faith and good will of the average human on this earth.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:25 - ID#30116)
@No comments allowed in the frames mode?
This is not gold related, but it is a curious news item from the Dow Jones News Wire.

13:40 Unidentified Object nearly hit Swissair 747 near Philadelphia.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:30 - ID#30116)
Now it seems to work?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:39 - ID#364147)
@ finally
Haven't been able to get into Kitco for hours....Why me God???...Sadres suk!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 15:56 - ID#194225)
Gold and stocks held up pretty well today, defying the Xperts, didn't they? We were there... when gold was below $320 in 1997. That will be hard to believe 5 years from now.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:19 - ID#57232)
gunrunner: I find it interesting that two of the most democratic countries in human history consist of the classical ( ? ) greek period in greece, and modern switzerland. In many aspects modern Switzerland is more democratic than the US. Both of these two cultures allowed ( allow ) virtually every citizen to be armed. It is hard to attack or corrupt internally a country where every citizen is well armed with portable weapons.
I will bow to the historians and other experts to explain why democracy works so well in these two situations, without leading to civil war or other forms of unrest. For example this would not work in downtown Detroit or in the less attractive parts of LA.
I think it would serve us well if we understood why the Swiss culture and the classic Greek period were so successful. Our earlier American period resembles these democracies.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:24 - ID#413161)
@who cares 11:52
Who Cares, You are treading on dangerous ground. I remember my grandfather raising his glass to give a toast on Thanksgiving. He said, "I want to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy yourselves. There is no God. There is no hell. So live it up."
He died several years later a very bitter and unhappy man. Before his death he told me that he wanted to believe in God but he couldn't anymore. Think about it. ( Exodus 20:7 )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:25 - ID#26793)
LURKER: Thanks for the help with the 87-97 chart. It sure looks encouraging. No new high since August 6th, $3.6 billion a week can't get it back up to 8000. Compaq & Dell stalled. The Dow longs have got to be getting antsy about now.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:30 - ID#33180)
Coeur d'Alene
CDE rose to 15 today, with good volume in the last hour, closing at its high for the week. Someone besides the golden elf must be starting to like this good old silver stalwart with increasing gold operations.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:31 - ID#335190)
UFO @ Philadelphia (only in USofA you say!)
September 26, 1997

UFO nearly hit 747 near Philadelphia, Swissair says

ZURICH, Switzerland ( AP ) - An unidentified, wingless object travelling at
high speed passed dangerously close to a Swissair jetliner between
Philadelphia and Boston, the airline said Friday.

The pilot and copilot gave U.S. investigators different descriptions of the object that passed about 45 metres from the Boeing 747 after it had taken off from Philadelphia on Aug. 9.

The pilot told the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board that the
object as long and wingless, but the copilot said it was more spherical,
Swissair spokesman Erwin Schaerer said.

The incident took place at 7,000 metres. The plane's final destination was Zurich.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:36 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio 24.26

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:43 - ID#335190)
Lambs to Slaughter (by Suits) @ West Virginia Tax Payers, (the beat goes on!)
September 26, 1997
West Virginia to vote on entering stock market

MIAMI ( Reuter ) - With seemingly everyone from the Beardstown Ladies to baby boomers pouring money into the stock market, West Virginia is the only state that still bans the buying of stocks with public funds.

That could change if voters approve the "Modern Investment Amendment" in a Saturday referendum.

"We think it's winnable. We certainly don't think it's a shoo-in by any means," said Craig Slaughter, executive director of the West Virginia Investment Management Board.

Most U.S. states banned equity investments in the mid-1800s, when their heavy holdings in unstable banks and canal-building companies forced them to the brink of bankruptcy.

"Investing in infrastructure back then meant to get somebody to come to your state and build a canal. That was start-of-the art modern transportation," said Garth Dickey, manager of Indiana's $8 billion Public Employee Retirement Fund.

"Then along came something called railroads. A revolutionary change took place. Those canals became very expensive irrigation ditches." "What they never expected in 1851 was defined benefit plans. Pension funds didn't exist," Dickey said.

Over the past few decades, most states changed their constitutions to permit long-term investing in the stock market. Two of the last three holdouts, Indiana and South Carolina, scrapped the bans when voters approved constitutional amendments last November.

There has also been public resistance to the change because of lingering ill will over an investment fiasco in 1987, when West Virginia sued nine Wall Street brokerages to recoup money lost in risky bond derivative investments. The last of those lawsuits was settled in January.

"We've done everything we think is possible to keep that from happening again," Slaughter said.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:53 - ID#227238)
rdahlen ( @who cares 11:52 ) ID#413161: Obviously, your anecdote was meant to create some sort of connection between contumacious cause and the effect of an inevitable Universal Retribution. Please cite evidence to support conclusion. ........ Grandfather died 'years' later??? Surely, a sign of remarkable patience on the part of your Deity. The Yahweh of our fathers' fathers, would have smote him where he stood and kicked his butt, to boot!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 16:59 - ID#335190)
Gun Registration @ Canada
September 26, 1997
Government says firearm registry will cost more than $85 million

OTTAWA ( CP ) - A national firearms registry will cost more than the $85
million the federal government predicted when it passed its gun-control
legislation, say Justice Department briefing notes.
The increase is blamed on changes to the Firearms Act, including notifying spouses of people applying for licences, a court challenge to the legislation and the decision of three provinces and a territory not to administer the act.

"While the protection of all citizens will be maintained, it will be at a cost which is expected to be higher than would have been the case if those provinces had continued to administer this important piece of criminal law," the notes say.

Six provincial and territorial governments, led by Alberta, have gone to
court in Alberta to argue that sections of the law are unwarranted intrusions into provincial authority. The notes say implementation of the registration is "proving challenging."

(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:04 - ID#246224)
UFO = They're shooting missles at our air-lanes. Happened near
Long Island, New Tork last time, only they got a hit then. Just an attempt at payback. We've made enough enemies. Those Stinger missles ( approx 1000 ) we gave to the Afgans are back at us. If they went trolling for "fishing boats" in the area I'd say they would find some interesting 'fish', wouldn't you?

(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:09 - ID#227238)
Elf: Did you pull up the monthly chart on CDE? It didn't appear to have broken the downtrend line. But the daily and the 1 minute chart look promising. Do you see something higher than the 93/94 highs in the mid 20's? ..... I wish I had been collecting data on CDE. I don't have a current chart in my daily stuff.

George Cole
(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:12 - ID#430205)
2 and Mikeharry: The gold complex indeed did quite well today considering the magnitude of the recent runnup and the strong rally in paper. Jimmy Rogers to the contrary, it does look like the trend finally is changing in a fundamental way.

I now am 90% certain the bear is over, but am still unsure whether we will now enter a strong bull phase or a basing period. The CBs and Wall Street will continue the struggle to keep gold down until the bitter end. They may no longer have the means to keep driving it lower in the face of surging physical demand and growing doubts that the paper bull can keep going much longer. But they still may be able to keep the price from rising sharply anytime soon.

Spud Master
(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:38 - ID#273112)
Pre-planned treachery
Allen - come'on, do you think we'd give Stingers to the Afghans that had a life of more than a year? It is very easy to add a chip or two, a different battery, a slowly corroding bridgewire in a detonator, an environmental weak spot so that a munition works fine for a year or so, and then turns to merde. Just like all those bleed'n F-16 and F-15's we've sold ( cough - given ) to the Egyptians, Jordanians, Turks, Greeks - you know how easy it would be to bury a command protocol in the aircraft's avionics so that one of our planes would merely have to broadcast a "screw-up" command and send their planes spirialing into the dirt? Why do you think the Isreali's insist on doing their own F-16 avionics? They ain't stupid.

Who Cares
(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:56 - ID#243265)
Top Rhami-don

Says "You're treading on dangerous ground. God might strike
you dead".

Good. That would be a blessing.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 17:59 - ID#335190)
Gold + Silver @ Markets
September 26, 1997
Oil prices rise strongly, silver up, wheat down

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - Oil prices closed higher on Friday as concerns spread about supplies being affected by a storm in the Gulf of Mexico and Iraqi tensions just as heating oil demand starts to pick up for the winter season.

In other markets, silver prices continued to rise on shrinking stocks of physical metal in warehouses.

Wheat prices fell sharply after Pakistan bought less U.S. wheat than expected, and corn and soybean prices fell amid harvest.

Meanwhile, rebels in Colombia blew up a section of the country's Cano Limon-Covenas oil pipeline on Friday, forcing immediate suspension of pumping operations along the line. The pipeline has been dynamited at least 49 times this year, and four times this month.

Silver prices extended a rally on Friday, while gold fell back after Australian miners sold metal following the market's strongest day in weeks on Thursday. Silver for December delivery at the COMEX in New York closed 3.7 cents an ounce higher at $4.822, while December gold closed 50 cents lower at $329 an ounce.

"The bulk of central bank selling for the year may now be over, but there was some more Australian producer selling overnight and I don't think this market is going to run away on the upside," Credit Lyonnais Rouse chief bullion dealer Scott Mehlman said.

"Very little has changed with producer forward selling, along with actual and potential central bank sales remaining major enemies of gold bulls," said Merrill Lynch commodities research director Bill O'Neill.

"In addition, gold continues to ignore factors that in the past would have been considered quite bullish, such as the currency crisis in Asia," he added.

In silver, the focus remains on the steady slide in silver stocks in depositaries around the world this year, with silver demand exceeding mine supply for the eighth year in a row.

Silver stored at COMEX-registered warehouses fell another 1,222,126 ounces to 141,388,753 ounces on Thursday.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:13 - ID#26793)
EARL: Contumacious? Wow! I had to look that one up. I would of used contumelious but I guess you were trying not to be too pompous. ( grin thing )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:15 - ID#57232)
Allen ( USA ) : Would a stinger missle have the vertical range to bring down flight 800, if launched from a fishing boat? How about the "friendly fire" stuff that Pierre Salinger was talking about, along with the French secret service? The idea of a "kinetic" weapon or some other experimental device sounds more plausible, because that would explain the presence of the P3.
Another possibility is that there is an "unfriendly" parking in a fishing boat near the flight lanes. The key question would be what kind of missle would have the range, and why our military hasn't picked up on this. I would expect some commotion or the sudden disappearance of the threat ( probably all top secret ) . Another question along this line is how our "unfriendly" might get access to more than one of these missles, which I would assume would be much harder to get than a stinger. Let's hope noone has figured how to "soup up" a stinger.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:15 - ID#227238)
Donald: Contumelious?? Damn. Now I gotta go to the really big book. :- )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:43 - ID#335190)
12 Communities @ Nafta Loans as Economic hardship Aid. Job Losses
September 26, 1997
U.S. adds to list of NAFTA loan areas

WASHINGTON ( AP ) - The Clinton administration has added 12 communities to the list eligible for economic development loans to deal with job losses from the free trade agreement with Mexico and Canada.

Businesses in the designated areas can apply for loans and loan guarantees administered through the North American Development Bank. The $3-billion US bank was set up by Congress in 1993 as part of the
legislation that created the North American Free Trade Agreement. It also
finances environmental cleanup along the U.S.-Mexican border.
After a group of Hispanic members of Congress accused the administration of delaying implementation of the program, it released on Aug. 1 a list of 35 communities in 19 states that will be eligible for the loans.

The 12 communities in nine states added to the list on Friday were:
Greenville, Ala.; Helena, Ga.; Osage City, Kan.; St. Martinville and Port
Barre, La.; Zanesville, Ohio; Kingstree, S.C.; Newbern and Spencer,
Tenn.; Tyler and Weslaco, Tex., and Martinsville, Va.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:55 - ID#227238)
6pak: How long before the entire US and Canada is added to the growing list of hardship cases? Seems like every piece of legislation is eventually turned into a reason for more handouts and pork barrel spending.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 18:56 - ID#335190)
Voisey Bay @ Delays =sabre-rattling =Inco posturing
September 26, 1997

World nickel markets could use Voisey's output

TORONTO ( CP ) - The vagaries of world metal markets make it difficult
to predict what the fallout will be from any delays by Inco Ltd. in getting its proposed Voisey's Bay nickel project under way, analysts said Friday.

But they all agree Toronto-based Inco, the western world's biggest
producer of nickel, has too much invested in the $6 billion Labrador
project to turn back now.

One analyst dismissed as "sabre-rattling" the company's warnings that
delays in the regulatory process could push back production targets by
several years. "It strikes me as posturing," said Leo Larkin, an analyst with S & P Equity Group in New York.

"There's an uncertainly about the actual timing of Voisey's Bay," he said. "When you combine that with the uncertainty of exactly what the situation will be in the nickel market at the time, it's very difficult to have a hard, fast conclusion as to what the impact will be."

But demand for stainless steel - in appliances, utensils and counter-tops -is booming in the North American market as well, driven by a public
obsession with germ-fighting, Goldie said.

"We are using increasing quantities of stainless steel because of its
antiseptic properties and people are buying because of the growing fear of plague."

(Fri Sep 26 1997 19:27 - ID#344211)

your query is quite quarrelsome in nature
and presents a quandry. obviously you were
asleep when communication skills were passed-out.
if this is important to you, try again, i'll
respond in kind....

btw--stay away from the yellow snow---where the huskies go--
frank zappa-----

(Fri Sep 26 1997 19:33 - ID#335190)
Earl @ 18:55
There is no expanation to this madness. The economic situation in UsofA
and Canada, has been based on the premise: "What is good for business, is good for the Citizen." Business professionals have such a huge burden of
responsibility, having the difficult task, of managing the wealth of
their respective nations. Such a monumental duty, they must care for, and
keep their school mates, and family, and friends under contract.

We citizen's must give these business professionals credit, and not to be
critical, of such caring and dedicated servants of the consumer, citizen, Share-holder, etc. eh! Nafta, was promoted as, Job,Jobs,Jobs. And on it goes, the little citizen will pay

(Fri Sep 26 1997 19:39 - ID#228257)
Earl: I don't have a price target yet for CDE. I'm so happy to see it doing well again on stronger silver prices. In my usual chicken fashion, I may just let it rise til it scares me, then start taking little profits on the way up ( if we are so lucky ) . That's not technically interesting, but it is an old habit that lets me sleep nights and live to trade again.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 19:53 - ID#344211)

the computer on heinleins mythical space/dimensional/ship
named dora; even she made mistakes.....i blame her....and
willy.....btw---these books by heinlein are incredible
glimpses into the future...if we last that long----

ted---ss coming at you via the jet stream

welcome back steve@perth...hi earl---kitco-cumma-sum-laude
your seat awaits........

cherokee!; ) with-REAL-red-blood!--fatimmatgt

(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:11 - ID#426220)
While XAU slumped today, the BROADER-BASED GOLD FUNDS INDEX rose 0.46! The Index is composed of 10 global Gold & Silver Funds - portfolios containing SEVERAL 100 mining FIRMS:

(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:25 - ID#22956)
Good Weekend to all
Don't go and say anything 'smart' this weekend...O.K?...WW?... promote commerce in No. Cal.

ted - whatchu talkin' 'bout!?! tony knows people...

Yellow Jacket
(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:34 - ID#4289)
The Zurich Axioms
NICK: Just read the Axioms. You're right. Worth printing and posting close by you!!! AURATOR: Thanks for your post of the Axioms. My contribution is the URL so everyone can access them easily.

Yellow Jacket
(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:36 - ID#4289)
The Zurich Axioms
The URL only to avoid having to leave the page.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:45 - ID#18970)
Talked with a mining Co Trader who has been correctly bearish re contacts with THE Trading Desks. They ( the desks ) are now turning neutral. Still worried about CBs though but who isnt..

(Fri Sep 26 1997 20:50 - ID#255190)
All right, all right. Maybe they weren't Stingers, but I keep expecting them to show up somewhere in the hands if Iranians, Iraqis or Lybians. As to why these "unfriendlies" are not immediately apprehended You've got to understand that our military apperatus is set up to deal with *extrenal* threats. We do not have a big expenditure of $$ in patrolling our coasts. Consider a moderate sized fishing ship. By the time they figure out that it might be a launch, where do you start looking? They don't hoist jolly rogers these days. "What, officer? A missle? We haven't seen any missles here abouts..". So it seems that a "very fast" flying things coming from the ground is really a missle. And it came really close. And it is an awefull lot like the Long Island situation. And I bet that since Aug 19th there have been more than a few late night meetings about this in certain windowless rooms in Washington.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:05 - ID#255284)
The Illinois Enema Bandit rides again. ;-))
Yellow Jacket
you fellers can do amazing things did you copy and pste that?

cherokee; yes I was being quarrelsome, I get like that sometimes, especially if i sense an injustice. It is the warrior in the talker. The point i was making in an Antipodean-Ham-Fisted-Way was simply that other posters here find your handle offensive. That is if you are not a cherokee, someone who is a cherokee might take umbrage ( as in eclipse ) at some of what you say, cos you purport to be a cherokee, therefore should know something about being a cherokee.
my post referred to the offence that i could cause if I posted under the handle maori, or jew.... i do not need to go on.
may i apologise for my lack of "manners" and suggest most politely that you change your handle #if# those who appear to be offended have cause to be offended???
;- )

I wanna move to Montana, gonna be a Dental Floss Tycoon....zappa

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:08 - ID#334321)
@ Chong
Hi bro

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:22 - ID#334321)
@ Cheech
Hi bro

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:22 - ID#344211)

since i am of direct lineage of a certain
group of indigenous people, my great-grand-parents
had the distinction of having a special number assigned
to their personage identifying them as INDIANS by the ( deja vu )
gov't. i have more than enough of their lineage to be
recognized as a native american indian by the us gov't.
i care not for entitlements or hand-outs, and despise liberals!
the handle "cherokee" is an enjoinder for has
never caused a problem, and shant it is me....

cherokee-------or john, as you wish......they are both me, and i he...

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:27 - ID#344211)
@the majic carpet

i'm with you dude------

Yellow Jacket
(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:27 - ID#4289)
Copying a URL
AURATOR: It's really easy, actually. Just click on the "Location" window where the URL is displayed and press Ctrl-C. The item is now stored in the Windows Clipboard. Then place your cursor where you want the item, and press Ctrl-V to paste. This works on any html text on any WWW page.

Yellow Jacket
(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:31 - ID#4289)
I forgot something
AURATOR: It's probably obvious but, just in case, the item to be copied must be highlighted before pressing Ctrl-C. Highlighting works as in any word processing application. Happy copying!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:35 - ID#388434)
@ George Cole, gunrunner
Hi George Cole;

I would hope you are correct in your last analysis, but I think "the manipulators," if they exist, have one last surprise in store for we "gold bugs." This consolidaton phase has left option prices still a wee bit too high - - Sure, they are as cheap as we've seen them, and a surge in gold could make us bugs rich by most people's reckoning, But I don't think that's good enough for some . . . This scenario has been 17 years in the making, it simply HAS TO end with the "Mother of all reversals" ( to borrow a phrase . . . I think that requires a further serious downside for gold.


For the benefit of non-shooters who lurk here, Wayne LaPierre, the author of the book you mentioned earlier, is the current executive vice-president of the NRA. I agree that the NRA puts out some great publications.

I got the handle "niner" several years ago on a shooting sports board because of my propensity to support the 0.355" extensively in my collection, as well as develop ever-faster handloads for same. My favorite water jug buster is an 88gr 9mm JHP approaching 1600 fps . . . Wow!, does that puppy vaporize a 1 gallon milk jug full of H2O . . .

"Could have just as easily been known as Two-Two-Three . . ."

Bets Regards, Niner

The Major
(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:42 - ID#372425)
@What Kind Of A Guru Are You Anyway--ZAPPA
Speaking strickly what point do we/they/anybody
finally put to rest the Central Bank Selling theme?Is there a date or
time period for this declaration to be made or do we just sit and wait
till whenever?

On the UFO.... maybe it WAS a UFO!!Are we/you counting those little green
men out cause ya'll are not to big on ( Green ) span:- )

On the AUS. selling overnight....are they that d*mn desparate down-under?
After just giving their own CB the gears for selling,they sure jumped on
the bandwagon pretty quick.Doesn't help the cause when they thwart a rise
in their own commodity.Not real bullish eh?What's with that Nick?

On the use of handles relative to backgrounds...who cares!!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:44 - ID#255284)
@ Dinamohummmm???
cherokee. Ancestors numbered? i had no idea....will you accept the pipe i pass to you? ;-]
Sometime last week i raved and mentioned my own grandfather who enlisted with his four brothers on the declaration of WWI, three months later he was the only one alive...
there has been a lot of belicose talk on this site these last few days.
Nick, it was in this sense that I mentioned Darwin a while ago. Darwin has immense strategic importance....more later
Yellow Jacket - thanks, I can be astonishingly dim sometimes..;- )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:49 - ID#334321)
I "know" you are my friend.Pass the pipe this way~~~~~~~~

(Fri Sep 26 1997 21:59 - ID#287389)
John Cherokee...........

A most American sounding name! You must be proud.
[also, keep an eye on CAU on the AX]

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:22 - ID#258224)
@...the easy one first
Panda: re- Swiss Air plane almost hit by UFO ? Ever hear about the MIR station problems ?

nomercy: Japan could possibly be the trigger point for a retreat in the US Bull. We are reading now about two important issues. First, the Asian currency problem's solution is being heralded by the Japanese in the absence of U.S. leadership. The Japanese regard Asia as their only balance to US/EU global economic hegemony. Second, we are now reading articles about trade conflicts between U.S./Jap - notwithstanding Rubin's consilatory claim to the contrary. The congress is motivated by corporate lobbists most of the time and by ( common folk ) voters during re-election. U.S. exproters are hurting due to the high US$ and specifically in relation to Japanese imports of autos and IT related goods and jobs are being lost to foreign low-wage/cost juridictions. There is a story on Yahoo today indicating that the U.S. is going to impose a 50% + duty on Jap supercomputers entering the U.S.

If there is one thing that Japan can do that has little current risk and long-term gain is to sell sufficient US paper to fund an Asian currency airlift fund. The Japan-Asia fund could mirror IMF credits/loans to this region and provide leadership to begin the process of policy based reform of the SE Asian economies that have been harmed by so-called 'evil empire' speculators.

The possibility of a Japanese break point nears as the U.S. continues to beat the drum of trade friction while the Jap economy is still experiencing a lack of sufficient domestic demand - the Japs contend that it is not that they are selling as much as they can't afford to buy thus leading to the balance of trade problem with the U.S.

Bill Clinton will likely have trouble getting his fast-track trade legislation through congress as union and non-union workers will begin to rally congress to save American jobs.

I think Bill Clinton assumes that he will have an easy ride in his last term of office. I remember George Bush also had expected to win an easy second term and was rudely awaken by the US voters.

Postscript: I would like to see Elizabeth Dole run for the U.S,. Presdidency. I liked her style and competance even before Bob Dole ( whom I also like ) challenged Bush for the GOP Presidential nomination.

( An admiring Canuck )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:38 - ID#335190)
USofA Treasury Counsel @ Indicted for Consiracy
September 26, 1997
Former U.S. Treasury counsel indicted

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - A former general counsel to the U.S. Treasury and three others were indicted Friday for conspiracy to commit wire fraud in connection with a scheme to solicit investment in non-existent bank obligations.
Paul Eggers, who had been general counsel to the Treasury during the Nixon administration, and the other defendants were indicted by a Manhattan federal grand jury, for allegedly collecting nearly $8 million from investors for a program known as "cash leasing."

Eggers was previously charged with the crime in a May 16 complaint filed by the Manhattan U.S. attorney's office. The other defendants in the scheme are G. Lincecum, Anthony Miremadi and Valerie Miremadi.

If convicted, the defendants face a possible maxium prison term of five years. Prosecutors allege that the defendants solicited investors to provide money that Eggers and Lincecum would invest in what were called "106-guarantees," which Lincecum defined as financial instuments issued by "top 25 banks."

He allegedly identified the issuing banks as Bank of Nova Scotia, Barclays Bank, Deutsche Bank, Dressner Bank, Barnett Bank, First Union Bank of Tennessee, ABN Amro Bank and National Westminster Bank.

Prosecutors alleged that many of the representations made by the defendants were false.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:40 - ID#344211)
@the-python-boot-is-too-tight, stinkfoot

agreed 100% on who should care! wooo, woo, woooo, woo, woo!; )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:44 - ID#335190)
School District @ Bilked
September 26, 1997
SEC accuses firm of bilking Pa. school districts

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - The Securities and Exchange Commission said Friday a Federal judge has temporarily frozen the assets of investment adviser Devon Capital Management Inc. on charges they caused many Pennsylvania school districts to lose about $71 million.

"This is apparently the largest municipal fraud in Pennsylvania history, defrauding primarily school districts," said Ron Long, the SEC attorney handling the case.

In 1985, more than 20 school districts in Florida said they lost about $100 million in a similar investment plan with another firm.

Based on the experiences of other school districts' losses in the past, potential fallout from the investment losses could range from stalled capital projects to budget cuts, bankruptcy and ratings downgrades.

Devon managed about $345 million in assets for about 100 investment advisory clients, most of which are school districts that invest bond sale proceeds, according to the SEC.
The SEC alleged an ongoing fraudulent scheme in which the adviser invested about $233 million of the municipal bond proceeds from 75 local school districts, the SEC said.

"From January 1996 through August 1997, at least $2 million of school district funds were used to pay for the defendants' personal and business expenses," the SEC said.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:49 - ID#335190)
Bad Apple @ Drug Trials
September 26, 1997
Research company admits to falsifying drug trials

LOS ANGELES ( Reuter ) - A research group working on behalf of some of the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies Friday admitted to falsifying clinical data in trials of several drugs seeking U.S. approval.
American Pharmaceutical Research Inc., its president and two employees pleaded guilty to conspiracy in connection with clinical trials it conducted for Bayer AG, Glaxo, Pfizer Inc., Rhone-Poulenc Rorer, SmithKline Beecham Plc and others.

"We always require two controlled multi-center trials and each one can involve as many as 10 different study centers, and maybe 100 investigators, said FDA spokesman Don McLearn. "So when you have one bad apple it's not the be all and end all. Our system doesn't depend on a single investigation. We have a fairly successful set of checks and balances."

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:50 - ID#287389)

What does all that have to do with the price of precious metals and pm stocks on monday morning?

You generally have an interesting, common sense approch to our subject. Over analysis is no different than under analysis. And it ain't that complicated!

(Fri Sep 26 1997 22:53 - ID#335190)
Insider Trading @ Canada
September 26, 1997
Canadian 88 CEO accused of insider trading

CALGARY, Sept 26 ( Reuter ) - Canadian 88 Energy Corp Chief Executive Greg Noval will face a hearing before Canadian securities regulators over alleged insider trading before the company's failed takeover bid for Morrison Petroleums early this year, the regulatory bodies said on Friday.
The Alberta Securities Commission ( ASC ) said it accused Canadian 88 and Noval of providing undisclosed information about the planned C$652 million hostile bid to David DiPaolo, the sole officer and shareholder of West Central Capital Corp, in the weeks leading up the the January takeover offer announcement.

"The allegations raised by the staff of the Commissions are entirely without basis. We want to get this matter behind us as quickly as possible while we continue to go full steam ahead with our C$110 million capital expansion program now under way in Western Canada," he said.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:02 - ID#335190)
Blair, Central Banker's Man @ British Labour Party
September 26, 1997
Focus-Britain's Cook dismisses EMU report

LONDON, Sept 27 ( Reuter ) - British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook has tried to take the steam out of a report that the Labour government was warming to Europe's planned single currency.

Friday's Financial Times report, quoting an unnamed minister as saying the government would soon make a statement on joining European Economic and Monetary Union ( EMU ) shortly after its 1999 launch, sent London shares soaring.

"I think I can authoritatively state that there will be no such announcement in the immediate future," Cook told reporters at the United Nations.

"The position on the single currency I've been stating over the last few days is exactly the position I've been stating over the last year."

The official position of the Labour government, swept to power in a May general election landslide, is that it is highly unlikely Britain will sign up for the first wave of EMU.

The Treasury and Prime Minister Tony Blair's office dismissed the Financial Times report as "speculation."

But economists, who have seen other tell-tale signs that ministers are warming to EMU, said it had a ring of truth.

The Times, staunchly anti-EMU, said in an editorial on Saturday that Blair could force through approval for entry into a single currency, but at a high cost.

"Blair was elected on the understanding that he would defend British interests in Europe... Blair might win the referendum but at the cost of his outstanding political asset, his reputation for straight dealing," the newspaper said.

12 Pak
(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:08 - ID#250183)
@ wasted
Am I trashed or what

(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:11 - ID#22956)
My name is Eric...and I am a Kitcoholic...
Damn!! This Place is gooood!

I NEEd my Kitco...

Cherokee - keep on keepin' on

Aurator - You want to live in 'Big-Sky-Country'? That is one of the Supreme Creators Favorite places... and I printed your Axioms when they were written. You gotta way with words...

So do you Earl of Pearl-Post...

Cheech & Chong - Let's ALL enjoy the peace...pipe...


(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:14 - ID#335190)
Mark + Pound @ USofA Dollar
Friday September 26, 1997
U.S. dollar ends higher as British pound tumbles

NEW YORK ( Reuter ) - The dollar ended higher against the British pound after a newspaper report claimed Britain would join a proposed single European currency shortly after its launch in January 1999.

But a report in London's Financial Times said Britain would seek to join the half dozen or so participants soon after the euro's launch date.

"That's definitely an idea within the British government. They leaked the story to see how the markets would react, and they seemed to get the reaction they wanted," said John Hazelton, chief currency dealer at Manufacturers and Traders Bank.

In addition, economists at Deutsche Bank predicted the Bundesbank might let its key money market rate, the repo rate, drift higher when it sets money market terms for the week next Tuesday."We're waiting for next Tuesday. If the Germans raise rates or float the repo, it will cause the mark to go higher against a lot of currencies," said Mark Gargano, head of currency derivatives at First Union National Bank.

But later in the session, the dollar reclaimed some lost ground when Bundesbank chief economist Otmar Issing told reporters the Bundesbank was no longer concerned that the dollar had gotten too strong against the mark.

German central bankers in the past had repeatedly stated that the weak mark was boosting German inflation by raising the prices of imported goods. "Issing said they shouldn't worry as much about the dollar's strength. Traders took that to mean the dollar will not go down anymore, so the dollar shot up," said Hazelton.

(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:16 - ID#253174)
@ earth
SF 3----SD 1 sadres suk

(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:26 - ID#257148)
@ reprising an earlier post
By popular demand..more exerpts from The Zurich Axioms by Max Gunther...1985 1985
( all apostrophes have been eliminated as part of a global plot to exterminate em )

Minor Axiom VI

Beware the Chartists illusion

Representing numbers by lines on graphs can be useful or dangerous. It is useful when it helps you visualise something with greater clarity, than you could with numbers alone

( ( aside:- I have seen a most amazing chart that is also a map of the route taken by Napoleans army advancing towards and retreating from Moscow - one axis is time and the chart itself depicts the ever decreasing size of the army - anyone got an URL? ) }

It is dangerous when it makes the thing represented look more solid and portentous than it really is.....

The chartist begins by fastening his attention on a stock, say Hoo Boy Computers....He goes back through the months or years of records showing the ups and downs in Hoo Boys trading price.....He looks particularly for jiggles and wiggles just before Hoo Boy stock began a significant price rise or a sharp drop. He believes that these patterns will repeat themselves. The next time he sees a similar set of jiggles and wiggles, he will conclude that a new price rise of drop is on the way and he will take the appropriate speculative action.
When things dont work out as he expects - which, as often as not, they dont - he will humbly blame himself. The problem, he insists, is that he hasnt been astute enough. He *knows* the market can be predicted by charting, if only he can figure out what patterns to look for.
He cant make himself believe the simplest of all possible explanations

( aside-- why, Yes, it is the William of Occam Razor gang visiting again )

that is : The stock market has no patterns. It almost never repeats itself and never does so in a reliably predictive way...Making charts of stock prices is like making charts of ocean froth. ( Froth? someone open a beer here? ) You will see each pattern once, and then it will be gone. Only by blind chance will you ever see it again. If you do see it again it will have no significance, for it predicts nothing.

... the danger is not just that you can be conned by others, but that you can hoodwink yourself.....

...A chart line always has a comforting orderly look, even when what it depicts is chaos....

Life never happens in straight lines. ( great line that ) Any adult knows this. But we can too easily be hypnotised into forgetting it when we are contemplating a chart.

( ( see ya in a bit- gotta check the creek, looks like more local flooding..
;- )

(Fri Sep 26 1997 23:36 - ID#335190)
Religion & Nuclear Missiles @ Russia & USofA
September 26, 1997
Russian president signs law restricting foreign religions

MOSCOW ( AP ) - President Boris Yeltsin signed a bill on Friday that makes Russian Orthodoxy his country's pre-eminent faith and limits the
practice of many others.

A brief Kremlin statement said Yeltsin signed the revised law "on freedom
of conscience and religious organizations" but made no further comment.
Yeltsin signed the law in spite of an attempt by the United States to talk him out of it.

September 26, 1997
U.S., Russia launch new NATO partnership

UNITED NATIONS ( AP ) - Officials began a new partnership between NATO and Russia on Friday, then signed two sets of arms control agreements aimed at reducing nuclear threats and strengthening security.
Russia will have more time to get rid of long-range missiles banned by the 1993 START II treaty, and all five Pentagon programs to defend U.S.
troops against missiles got a green light from Moscow. The accords are
subject to U.S. Senate approval.