Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Thu Oct 09 1997 00:05 - ID#242148)
To John Q. Public, stop whinning, you are not a victim. Because of your greed you have made your choice.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 00:40 - ID#410246)
Westly, don't invite chaos

The Major
(Thu Oct 09 1997 01:06 - ID#372425)
@TSE Gold Index

The Major
(Thu Oct 09 1997 01:20 - ID#372425)
@Tse Gold Index Today
Ex Time Price Change Volume Buyer Seller Marks

T Oct 8 17:04 8913.89 220.93 7852326 !
T Oct 8 17:04 8913.89 220.93 7852326 !
T Oct 8 17:00 8913.89 220.93 7852326 !
T Oct 8 16:45 8913.89 220.93 7852326 !
T Oct 8 16:30 8913.89 220.93 7852326 !
T Oct 8 16:15 8913.89 220.93 7851426 !
T Oct 8 16:00 8913.89 220.93 7849226 !
T Oct 8 15:45 8823.99 131.03 7315212 !
T Oct 8 15:30 8818.33 125.37 7058046 !
T Oct 8 15:15 8804.39 111.43 6864794 !
T Oct 8 15:00 8798.12 105.16 6666721 !
T Oct 8 14:45 8813.40 120.44 6463183 !
T Oct 8 14:30 8809.71 116.75 6325103 !
T Oct 8 14:15 8799.99 107.03 6209483 !
T Oct 8 14:00 8788.85 95.89 6139156 !
T Oct 8 13:45 8814.55 121.59 5818871 !
T Oct 8 13:30 8798.42 105.46 5444295 !
T Oct 8 13:15 8842.31 149.35 4335466 !
T Oct 8 13:00 8842.24 149.28 4193152 !
T Oct 8 12:45 8856.58 163.62 4067622 !
T Oct 8 12:30 8881.96 189.00 3929142 !
T Oct 8 12:15 8875.11 182.15 3815581 !
T Oct 8 12:00 8834.93 141.97 3502243 !
T Oct 8 11:45 8825.33 132.37 3348100 !
T Oct 8 11:30 8834.47 141.51 3008897 !
T Oct 8 11:15 8805.68 112.72 2735787 !
T Oct 8 11:00 8800.79 107.83 2448723 !
T Oct 8 10:45 8794.62 101.66 2252397 !
T Oct 8 10:30 8777.70 84.74 1805361 !
T Oct 8 10:15 8778.43 85.47 1176372 !
T Oct 8 10:00 8761.51 68.55 693360 !
T Oct 8 09:45 8765.67 72.71 417034 !

(Thu Oct 09 1997 01:31 - ID#255285)
a crowd of golden daffodills...
Oh Ludd ( Ned that is ) Please don't let me be miscontruated..

We could call this a collection of buffalo chips or golden words, depends on how you hear em i guess:

Mundis vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
( the world wants to be deceived, and so it is deceived )

"Can you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?" asked Alice.
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the cat.

Lewis Carroll

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Stephen Wright

Is the glass half empty, half full, or twice as large as it needs to be?


And the gold rolled through his veins
Like a thousand railroad trains
And eased his mind in the hours that he chose
While the kids ran around wearing other peoples clothes

Sam Stone
by John Prine

(Thu Oct 09 1997 01:44 - ID#198328)
@ Oracle of Alberta
I'm afraid that you guys may have missed the point a little with respect to that article I posted ( 3am yesterday ) regarding Oracle of Alberta's gold eagle paper on the "foreign" ownership of the Fed. That essay ( that I posted ) was top notch and argued quite convincingly that foreign ownership of the New York Fed was highly unlikely, given its consitution. A couple of people here complained that this essay did not account for who the shareholders of the NYFed really were. That wasn't the point of the article! My point was that OoA's list of shareholders was identical to the list published by that conspiracy theorist ( I think it was Kah ) in the essay that I posted. Perhaps OoA's source for this information was not the S&P paper at all, but it came from some conspiracy buff from Alberta -- I understand that the province is chock full of these people. It would be wise for Vronsky to post some footnotes in the submissions so that we can check up on the sources. Many of us use the information on Gold-Eagle to trade, so the verity of the sources for data given in the pages should be ascertainable. OoA, if you are out there, what is the name of that S&P publication where you found that list of foreign investors in the Fed?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 02:16 - ID#403267)
Howdy folks, did anyone see Dec Worth magazine? Page 39 has an article recommending gold stocks by Peter Lynch, nothing new to Kitcoites but a revelation to the rest of the world no doubt. Sorry no URL, Worth DEC not out on net yet ( cheap buggers ) , ( speaking of which ) you'll have to get a peek while waiting in the supermarket line like me!: ) To clarify the last, at the article! ( If its supermarket stories you want, I could toast another server of Barts ISP. LGB eat your heart out )

(Thu Oct 09 1997 02:54 - ID#252127)
Things smell like inflation in California

My basis; while living in the Cupertino, CA from 1989 to 1992, rent at the complex averaged $925 monthly over that time for a 2BR/2BA apartment with dual master suites. Today in the same complex, facilities with 2BR/1-1/2BA rent from $1500 to $1700. While Cupertino is home for Apple, who along with other members of the
'Silicon Tribe' -are not doing particularly well.
It seems that the big property owners smell a strong stench of inflation and are making plans to to be ahead of the curve.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 03:26 - ID#252127)
(@ Organ)

While it is difficult to determine what the percentages of ownwership in the Federal Reserve are and an important question it is; the fact, that the US $ an extremely overvalued currency controls the globe, begs the question.
Do you believe in the pronouncements of Ted Arnold and Andy Smith who ply their services for the currency and stock Czars?
If we are talking about conspiracies, I'd place my bets
with conspiracy "NUTS' before accepting the trival of the money changers.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 03:32 - ID#252127)
(@ Organ)

While it is difficult to determine what the percentages
of ownership in the Federal Reserve are and an important
question it is; the fact, that the US $ an extremely
overvalued currency controls the globe, begs the
Do you believe in the pronouncements of Ted Arnold and
Andy Smith who ply their services for the currency and
stock Czars?
If we are talking about conspiracies, I'd place my bets
with conspiracy "NUTS' before accepting the trival of the money changers.

John Disney
(Thu Oct 09 1997 04:37 - ID#24140)
To All
I just looked into files and found an old optimized
rule on buying gold mines.
Rule was buy if

1 RSA index up by 8 % from a low.

2. Swiss Frank above ( stronger ) than 9 week simple
3. Gold bullion above its 26 week simple MA.

rule 3 looks as if it now in place. This make RSA
mines a buy if you have faith this rule.

The exit is ANY 8 % drop in the index

(Thu Oct 09 1997 04:38 - ID#386245)
Aussie share market took a BIG hit today--all ords down 48. Gold shares ( XGO ) broke even. Some good bargains out there today!! I am in full nibbling mode--nibble, hell--bought a HUGE slab of Delta Gold. Not only have they got a world class gold mine, but also coming on stream with a humungous platinum mine in Zimbabwe ( Hartley ) in partnership with BHP--plus have huge undeveloped platinum ground next door. Can't believe the shares are going for these prices!! Don't the institutions with all their research facilities know that these prices are gonna double or treble in the next year or so??? I guess you gotta be pretty dumb to get a job with a mutual fund or insurance company!! In my not so very humble opinion--read this post a year from now and weep in your corn flakes if you haven't loaded up on these PM bargains!!!

GSC--mate--ain't it nice to be buyin' on the dips for a change!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 04:57 - ID#386245)
Honkers down 3.81%
FT-SE down 2.35%
J'burg Gold UP 2.21%
Someone give Puetz a call!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:03 - ID#386245)
Australia: right in the heart of the crisis zone

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:10 - ID#386245)
BIG drop in Hong Kong today !! The next meltdown zone??? Any comment???

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:18 - ID#26793)
Greg: The world system of debt, credit and paper currency can only continue if there is confidence on the part of savers to lend. Each failure nibbles away at that confidence. The closer the saver is to the failure the more his confidence erodes. Acting in fear, savers already have begun to show their concern by withdrawing funds at risk to havens they percieve to be safe. As the debt spiral unwinds with bankruptcies increasing in size and frequency even havens previously thought to be safe will become suspect. Gold will be the last haven of refuge. Indonesia, being a large country thought to be immune from failure, will play a large part in the process of confidence erosion.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:33 - ID#386245)
Have this with your morning coffee!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:34 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:42 - ID#386245)
You have to get the COLOR right!!!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:42 - ID#26793)
Nick@C: Good Morning! It's going to be a heavy duty day today. HK, Japan, UK down 111, Germany down 87. Goldilocks economy found in bed with 3 bears. Porridge is all cold.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:50 - ID#386245)
Japan sending warnings on further yen fall-traders

G'day Donald. The gold bears porridge must be getting a bit cold!! Hope that bull has a GOLD ring in his nose.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 05:58 - ID#33164)
Nick@C- Your url?

Morning Everybody! {: }}
Last few days have seen some great postings- Thank you all. Just sorry I don't have anything worthwhile to contribute.

NICK: Pl. could you re-post that address? www.afr ? Couldn't get in. Thanks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:01 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:02 - ID#386245)
Donald--if you've read my last post--this could have enormous implications for gold. Am I correct in assuming that Japan is saying to the US--"Your dollar keeps going up compared to our Yen and we will SELL heaps of $$$$!!!" Gold will look GOOD if dollar goes down!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:28 - ID#386245)
Hi colleen--G'day to S.A. ( see, I'm a poet as well as being "VERY popular with the ladies..." Thanks Mike Sheller--where do I send the cheque??--make it in pesos, mate--I've spent all my REAL money on gold/platinum shares ) . Where was I --colleen--almost forgot you--it's 8:10 pm here and I've had a GOOD day--so forgive my jabbering!!

I couldn't get that danged site to work either, but try this one and go from there. Have a look at the AFR every day as they are one of the BEST info sites on the net--BOOKMARK IT!!! Cheers from the other down under!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:29 - ID#26793)
Nick@C: Yesterday they were using 125 as the trigger, today 123. With the Nikkei below 17500 most, mabye all, Japanese banks do not meet the minimum capital requirement of the Bank for International Settlements to participate in international transactions. They would have to clear through a foreign bank. Serious loss of face.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:30 - ID#286199)
Didn't someone post sometime back that if the Nikkei fell below 17000, bank failures would become a serious problem for Japan? Today's close at 17376 puts them within a day or two ( 2-3% ) . They will sell U.S. treasuries if they need money and they own a whole bunch of those.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:33 - ID#286199)
@rise and shine
Geeesh Donald you are psychic...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:34 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:43 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:48 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:53 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 06:55 - ID#386245)
Wake up, TED!!! Showed me missus the Mike Sheller reading ( "VERY good with the ladies..." ) and she's been watchin' me like an eagle ( double ) !!!
I hope yur not gonna be a "drip" and keep all that cash in Cannuck $$$$, mate. Buy yerself some 'precious' shares before the price goes up too far!!! When John Doe catches on, mate, it'll be too late!! If ya don't make a fortune on the precious, you can always go to Scaterie and live like a hermit!! N.S. will probably give ya 50k/year to do nothin', mate. Why work fer a livin"???

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:02 - ID#348286)
@``The selling is being soaked up, the funds are still running short positions,''
Thursday October 9 4:34 AM EDT

Hong Kong gold ends up after two-way interest

HONG KONG, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Hong Kong spot gold ended up on Thursday compared to New York's previous close after two-way interest from Japan and Australia, dealers said.

Bullion ended at US$333.60/334.10 on Thursday compared to New York's close at US$333.00/50 on Wednesday.

Dealers reported producer selling but in small volumes that were easily digested by the market.

``The selling is being soaked up, the funds are still running short positions,'' said one source.

Other dealers said buying from Australia had pushed gold to an intraday high of $334.10/40 per ounce and the short position of funds meant gold could likely test higher on short-covering.

European buying in the afternoon session triggered another rally in prices and dealers said gold would test $335 per ounce in a bullish market.

Physical demand had remained lacklustre, dealers said.

Local tael gold ended HK$10 up at HK$3,081

The carry over charge at the Chinese Gold and Silver Exchange Society remained unchanged from its previous fix at -2.00.

Mike Sheller
(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:06 - ID#347447)
@Nick @the SILVER Chartz
NICK: Getting a lot of mileage outta that reading, ey mate? Gives new meaning to the phrase "Nick at Nite." RE SILVER: A look at the daily chart seems to be telling me that silver needs to take out 5.33-35 and go on to new highs for this move soon, or we'll see a quick breakdown to breakout support at around 5.04ish for starters. I am hoping that any reaction from here will be contained at that level. If that can happen, it validates the 17 year breakout and gives silver time to breathe on the "outside." There is going to be a "return move" after this breakout, like it or not, and if it's not sooner, it will be later from higher levels. That could be temporarily ugly when it happens. While an inevitable reaction would be normal, a close below $5 in the next month or so would be very damaging to the bull cause. These are the early moments when the newborn baby is still delicate and must be watched carefully. We would like to see renewed zip in the PM shares now as well, or we might start getting antsy.

George Cole
(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:12 - ID#430205)
Greenspan and gold
Several times over the past year, I have opined that the day might come when Alan Greenspan would want to see gold price move higher ( not too much higher, of course ) to help cool the runaway financial bull. After yesterday's speech I wonder if that day has arrived.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:14 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:17 - ID#269218)
( see> ) : : )
Tokyo stocks plunge; dollar also
Copyright  1997
Copyright  1997 The Associated Press
TOKYO ( October 9, 1997 06:10 a.m. EDT ) -- Tokyo stocks closed sharply lower
Thursday as investors grew pessimistic about chances for
the government's new measures to boost the economy. The
dollar plunged against the yen after U.S. stock prices fell.

The benchmark 225-issue Nikkei Stock Average fell
242.26 points, or 1.37 percent, closing at 17,376.92. On
Wednesday, the index had gained 107.99 points, or 0.62

An overnight decline on Wall Street also drove Japanese
share prices lower in early trading.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan rattled U.S.
stock and bond markets with a warning that tight labor
conditions could soon prove inflationary.

Prices on the Tokyo Stock Exchange continued to decline
because of growing fears about the health of the nation's
economy. Traders said many market players now believe
that the government is unlikely to adopt a special tax cut or
supplementary budget to give it a boost.

"The market is certainly heading downward, and it is seen as
a matter of time before the Nikkei falls below the year's
lowest level" of 17,303.65, set on Jan. 10, said Hideaki
Nakagawa, general manager of the stock division at Meiko
Securities Co.

The broader Tokyo Stock Price Index of all issues listed on
the first section fell 17.72 points, or 1.29 percent, to
1,360.24. It had climbed 3.14 points, or 0.23 percent, to
1,377.96 Wednesday.

Trading on the first section was estimated at 400 million
shares, up from 301 million Wednesday. Declines
outnumbers advances 783 to 318, with 155 issues

In currency dealings, the dollar was changing hands at
121.18 yen in late afternoon, down 1.08 yen from late
Wednesday in Tokyo but above its late New York level of
121.05 yen. It ranged between 121.08 yen and 121.35 yen
in today's trading.

In New York overnight, sharp declines in stocks and bonds
led investors to sell the dollar against the yen.

The dollar rebounded slightly early in Tokyo as currency
traders shifted their focus to the German mark and yen,
traders said. The mark rose against the yen on speculation
that the German central bank would soon raise interest rates.

Higher interest rates make a currency more attractive to
international investors.

The yield on the benchmark No. 182 10-year Japanese
government bond rose to 1.785 percent from 1.750 percent
Wednesday, driving its price down to 108.44 from 108.70

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:20 - ID#26793)
Yahoo has the London FTSE down 110. CNBC shows only 8. Anyone know the correct number?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:22 - ID#386245)
Platinum group metals seen firm on Russia worries

" seems the problems which hindered Russian PGM exports this year remain unsolved"

"Russia is the source of more than 60 percent of the world palladium supplies and about 20 percent of platinum supplies"

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:29 - ID#286199)
EBN shows FTSE down 9.9

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:36 - ID#232412)
Worth a lot
Roebear: I read that article in Worth ( in the November issue ) on Monday. Lynch is advocating buying gold stocks because of the difference between production costs and price of gold. He liked Barrick Gold and Placer Dome citing to other analyists. He feels that the major central bank sales are over.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:40 - ID#386245)
EBN markets --worth adding to bookmarks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:41 - ID#57232)
To all: Re -- Donald's post - "China loans 1.2 Trillion bad" I couldn't click on this to read -- but if this is confirmed, this is the trigger as far as I am concerned. If this is so, aren't you glad you heard it from Donald, and not elsewhere? You have a little more time.
If course what to do is not easy unless everything you have is in non-electronic, non-paper assets. For those of us who want to ride the market ( even gold stocks or derivatives of any kind ) , let us hope that we have a market to ride -- up or down!
Mike Sheller -- can you give us a clue about turning points? Next full moon Oct 16?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 07:47 - ID#364147)
@ Nick(C)
Mornin....Mate!....ya woke me..again...little groggy...sip sip...ahhhh..Now where were we...oh yeah...Canadian $'s,drips,NS and the precious...Scroll back ta yesterday morn. and ya'll see I sold more of me beloved stox; most a me bucks is in U.S.of A $'s: yer right on the money visa-V NS-CB but I ain't a Canuck citizen so they won't GIVE me nothin mate ( what the hell is the world coming to anyway ) ; drips= after yesterday= 40% of paper portfolio ( rest in CASH ) and finally the P.M's--have large ( for this ole dork ) position in ABX ) .....Scaterie looks ominous today with BIG waves a crashin against its rocky coastline but still plan @ least one more trip "out there" before the loooong winter sets in....sip sip...nothin like some hot java ta start the day! GO GOLD!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:04 - ID#386245)
"Has anyone stopped to think that Ted might be right?" --- ( just overheard on TV--my daughter is watching an oldie--The Mary Tyler Moore Show ) .

G'day mate. We're probably ALL wrong, mate. Probably shoulda bought that rhodium 260--290 Bart's tryin' to flog!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:05 - ID#386276)
Globex falling fast SP500 -585 NDX -700

Greenspan sends markets down

Latestest hurricane arrives ashore

Also Italy suffers 4th earthquake in last 12 days.
It measured 4.9 and was followed by 90 aftershocks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:06 - ID#364147)
@ monkey C monkey dew
Hang Seng down 3.81%.....Just read an article how tourism has been off almost 50% in Hong Kong since the "take-over" and the retail business sector is doing terribly---this mirrors what JIN says about Malaysian retail business so the hard times are spreading in Asia...More doom+gloom= S+P futures down 6.55 ( YES ) makes me feel less stupid ta see the market tank right after I sell some stox!! -7.25 ( double YES! ) Panda: liked yer post from summit of Mt.Washington with its radical weather....Just heard Krauts raised their interest rates ( repo ) and the European markets are startin ta plunge...ditto U.S.of A dollar...-7.35..7.60....

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:12 - ID#364147)
@ Nick(C)+ Krauts raising interest rates
There's a first time fer everthing mate.....are you implying that I might be livin in the "past"....Could be an interesting day for the dollar-gold with the rise in German!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:14 - ID#34450)

nick,just wondering what your thoughts are on TGO NTS & JBG THANKS

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:14 - ID#18970)
TED: GO Os/ GO MARLINS/ GO SILVER!! and not necessarily in that order!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:15 - ID#403267)
Nick Could you please repost your 8:05, I can't read the rest of the post,=error 404, thanks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:17 - ID#386245)
G'day Nick@Aussie--glad to see you here, mate, to lend some respectability to our handle. I really appreciate your informative posts--as the sites are A1. Don't know how you find so many fantastic sites--but keep em coming!!

Sorry to hear what wheelie bins are used for up there!! Not gonna help Japanese tourism much!! I guess there's a few rotten apples in the best of barrels.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:23 - ID#426220)
ALL: Can anyone supply the URL for this entity: Chinese Gold and Silver Exchange Society?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:25 - ID#364147)
@ WW
Mornin WW! I see yer gettin cocky after ONE measly!..Hate ta disappoint ya but last night was an aberation dude...GO TRIBE! hey,you want to buy a spectacular oceanfront property on the cheap---you'd fit in here better than mois!...One of the best views in all of Cape Breton!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:29 - ID#386245)
@Go the Sharks
Matt--G'day mate. Don't know much about Tanganyika Gold or North Star Resources--so won't advise. Made a packet on Jubilee, but now much too high for my taste. A year from now could be $3.00 or 30 cents--not good odds in my view. I like the odds the other way around!!!

Ted--no inference on the last post--after all yer gonna miss out on Granville's?? Dow 10,000 party, arn't ya, mate??? They've got a cruise ship and all lined up--with big honcho investment advisors etc. Bet the damned thing sinks!!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:29 - ID#364147)
@ Mike Sheller
Good call ( so far ) on copper......! EB: get yer lazy-ass outta bed...Front: Nice colors dude!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:33 - ID#364147)
@ Doom+Gloom
S+P futures down 8.85.....

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:34 - ID#386276)
Hi Nick@C
Had a mate who was working the camera when they found the wheelie bin. Not very nice. A real wacko and at 16!
Lendlease took a hiding today -$1.19 but more to come I think.
Should have bought puts in that one too, have to settle with the banks I guess.

Globex falling fast SP500 -585 NDX -700

Greenspan sends markets down

Latestest hurricane arrives ashore

Also Italy suffers 4th earthquake in last 12 days.
It measured 4.9 and was followed by 90 aftershocks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:36 - ID#206358)

Something strange happened around here!Dued to the recently currencies crisis over here last 2 months.Many private investors bought the gold physical to escape from the devalueation.Now,....the other way turn around.Since the currency getting stable a bit and they make profit nearly 30% or over from the local market!They pouring out the bars/bullions to cash in.the price just cheaper than the dealer.And even some dealer bought back the bars they sold out recently.My goodness,even myself bought couple of kilos dairy.Still,the market is run out of $!!I heard that ,Some of the dealers can even suck up hundred of kilos everyday....and export to hong kong!..I'm not sure about this situation could be last long,at least for the time being the demand over south east asia looks ENOUGH! ( Sorry,i do not have any number/percentage to prove this ) .Maybe someone more wisdom can enlighted us!
bye...stay happy!
p/s want to have some cheap sale here?ha..ha..!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:37 - ID#426220)
SPEED: Right on the money with your comment They will sell U.S. treasuries if they need money and they own a whole bunch of those. Compelling and comprehensive reports on subject in JAPAN BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD SPOT: Only Solution Is To Dump U.S. Treasuries and Buy GOLD! Parts I - VI:

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:39 - ID#200367)
Look out below.....

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:41 - ID#364147)
@ Joe Granville is an IDIOT
Had a spacy-friend ( was one of the higher-ups in the T.M. ( transcendental meditation ) organization and in the 80's "Joe Baby" was his guhru and guess what ...he lost everything but his shirt and even that I'm not sure of...How can people take someone like him...or Elaine Garzerelli seriously???....S+P futures down 8.55...P.S. Am gettin in as many posts as popssible before we go into our "prime-time" shut down...get it together Bart!! I'm payin big bucks for this site and I want SERVICE ( with a smile damn it ) -----down 9.20

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:41 - ID#364147)
@ Joe Granville is an IDIOT
Had a spacy-friend ( was one of the higher-ups in the T.M. ( transcendental meditation ) organization and in the 80's "Joe Baby" was his guhru and guess what ...he lost everything but his shirt and even that I'm not sure of...How can people take someone like him...or Elaine Garzerelli seriously???....S+P futures down 8.55...P.S. Am gettin in as many posts as popssible before we go into our "prime-time" shut down...get it together Bart!! I'm payin big bucks for this site and I want SERVICE ( with a smile damn it )

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:43 - ID#26793)
Vronsky: This seems to be what you are looking for but the URL does not work.
Chinese Gold. Foreign Investment. The Chinese economic boom is attracting massive foreign
investment. Over 50,000 sino-foreign joint ventures are now... - size 3K - 21-May-97 - English

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:43 - ID#386245)
Someone wake Puetz up, quick!! Is this the big one??? Bet the containment squad moves in quick smart on too big a drop!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:44 - ID#386276)
Nick @C
Ozzie SPI overnight down to 2701 not long ago. Down from 2792 high yesterday. Our market has broken important support barriers very quick.
I don't feel comfortable buying our AU stocks at the moment. If this selloff gets out of hand, they could be heaps cheaper soon.
That is providing gold doesn't go to the moon.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:46 - ID#364147)
Hi JIN! Good to hear from you again but what is this about selling stuff??...gotta run----Willy wants to play.....happy trading little bro!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:47 - ID#26793)
Ted: Good Morning. You did well to lighten up on paper yesterday. Anyone understand the reason for what Jin is reporting?

Johnny Q.
(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:48 - ID#244159)
@ Westley(00:05)
Dear Westley: I like to whine and I am a GREEDY-pig. oink oink oink

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:49 - ID#251223)
NICK: What is the ticker on Delta Gold and which exchange? I am always looking to do research on an overlooked, well managed company. Pegasus Gold was up almost 8% yesterday. PGU has had a rough summer, to say the least. They brought a new mine online this spring/summer. The good news @ PGU is that they have contracts on the rest of their 97 gold production at @$420/oz. They sold the comnpany jet also, tells me that they are serious about staying in the biz.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:50 - ID#30116)
Hi TED -- What's going on here? I can't get any of last nights posts. The earliest post that I can see is about 7:00 A.M. EST.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:51 - ID#26793)
JTF: That post on China loans. They admit to 600 billion. Independent sources say the figure is double. Thus the 1.2 trillion.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:52 - ID#286199)
leaving for work
It's a shame that when more people get jobs ( in the U.S. ) , the news is considered "bad". Wages are going up. Employers are competing for workers. At least it's good news for gold!! BBL

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:53 - ID#30116)
@TED spread
Treasury/ EuroDollar spread is widening...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:56 - ID#386276)
Global markets listening to Greenspan?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 08:57 - ID#386245)
Donald--re: Jin's report.. Those guys ain't stupid--they're traders. They figure their currencies have been OVERSOLD in the panic and they are simply taking a quick 30% profit. I woulda done the same!!! The currencies could easily bounce back 10--20% and then you simply go long gold again for the next drop. IMHO--they are buying the dip.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:07 - ID#206358)
This is what i meaned!Those guys will buy back AGAIN!If the physical drop or the currensies weakness!THEY PLAYED IN BOTH WAY!THEY ARE REALLY SMART AND SENSITIVE!
tHANKS FOR explaination!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:07 - ID#235389)
Nick@ Canberra
I wonder why the US nasdaq aint listening. Any comments?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:07 - ID#386245)
JAG-- Delta Gold is DGD on the Australian Stock Exchange.


the latter you will have to pay--but you get fantastic live quotes, charts etc--everything you need to trade in OZ

Nick@A--lots of down arrows there in Europe!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:15 - ID#235389)
I am assuming that Nick@Canberra and Nick@Aussie are one and the same.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:17 - ID#261118)
@ all.....
Somewone please E mail me the URL your all useing for Globex and S&P futures index price status before the market here ( US ) , opens.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:17 - ID#386245)
Uris--I'm no expert on anything--let alone the NASDAQ!! I reckon the yuppies figure tech stocks can't possibly fall!! After all, it's a brave new world out there!! Maybe they're right-- Microsoft 500!! Might even replace the S&P, mate!!! However, as a gambling man--I would be willing to bet the NASDAQ is gonna fall just as hard as the rest of the cards!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:21 - ID#386245)
Uris--I'm no expert on anything--let alone the NASDAQ!! I reckon the yuppies figure tech stocks can't possibly fall!! After all, it's a brave new world out there!! Maybe they're right-- Microsoft 500!! Might even replace the S&P, mate!!! However, as a gambling man--I would be willing to bet the NASDAQ is gonna fall just as hard as the rest of the cards!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:25 - ID#386245)
Uris--it's dangerous to assume anything these days. Look at the I.D. numbers, mate.

Nick is a popular name down here. I hear it all the time!! Get nicked!! Nick-off!! You should be so popular!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:26 - ID#240142)
@more bad news????

Comments, Please...I can't see how this would impact favorably on the paper today given AG's comments yesterday....

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:27 - ID#390214)
Germans raise interest rates
Bundesbank raises key money market rate to 3.3 pct

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:29 - ID#393102)
Investors expect returns of 22.3 percent this year and average
returns of 34 percent over the next ten years, according to
a Montgomery Asset Management survey. ... The Wise Investor survey
was conducted during late August and early September and questioned
a national group of 750 mutual fund share owners.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:32 - ID#30116)
badger --

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:34 - ID#390214)
First Canada, then Germany and France, next..
Bank of France Raises Rates, Following Bundesbank's Lead

The Bank of France surprised investors by raising interest rates at today's money market tender, matching an earlier rate
increase by the Bundesbank of Germany's key money market rate. The French central bank raised its intervention rate, the
effective floor to money market rates, to 3.30 percent from 3.10 percent. It left its ceiling rate unchanged 4.60 percent. French
bonds, already lower, fell further after the Bank of France moved. The 10-year 5.5 percent benchmark bond slid 0.75 to push
its yield up 10 basis points to 5.56 percent.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:41 - ID#386245)
About 11:40pm down here--so g'nite to all me mates up there. So far looks like yer all doin' the right thing with the XAU UP and everything else down. I bought one helluva lotta gold shares today folks, so make me smile when I wake up tomorrow!!! Nite all.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:45 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Today will either make or break gold for the very short term. There is a good chance that it will follow silvers yesterdays latter day move and go down. Given todays lacksadaisical behavior so far today on 'good' news for it, I could judge it as a safe bet. All it has to do is prove me wrong! If it were to do so, then 339+ Dec should be accomplishable.

Spud Master
(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:46 - ID#273112)
Destination: Core of the Earth
Dow down 54 points ... and so is my Yahoo! source of quotes. Is it just random chance that this -deleted- happens during potential crisis days, or is there a -nonpertinent phrase deleted- conspiracy going on to jam/disable certain public access to information? On the other hand, considering the amount of code out there written in C/C++ ... I shouldn't be surprised.

Spud Master
(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:47 - ID#273112)
down, down ....
Dow down 90 points ... Yahoo! quotes still down too...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:49 - ID#390214)
Donald- BGO news
Bema Gold Corporation -

Globe says firm in talks with potential partner

Bema Gold Corporation
Shares issued 92190909
1997-10-08 close $6.65
Thursday Oct 9 1997
Also Arizona Star Resource Corporation ( AZS )
The Globe and Mail reports in its Thursday, October 9, edition that Bema Gold is
in talks with a major mining company about jointly developing Bema's large gold
and copper deposit in Chile. A Bloomberg News dispatch to the Globe says
chairman Clive Johnson would not name the potential partner for developing the
Cerro Casale deposit, although he said it is a project that would interest both
major copper and gold producers. Bema expects to receive a preliminary
feasibility study within a week from Mineral Resource Development on the
economics of developing Cerro Casale. Bema Gold owns 49 per cent of the
deposit. Its 33 per cent owned unit, Arizona Star Resource owns 51 per cent.
Cerro Casale is thought to contain 27 million ounces of gold and seven billion
pounds of copper.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:51 - ID#386276)
Fiendbear's hot tonight!

Tick bottomed at -1202 biggest -tick yet.

You can use this url for quotes on SPZ7 GCZ7 etc. even when charts are not active. The bid/ask box ( bottom right side ) is still active.
It's more live than CME globex.
TYZ7=Dec 10y Bonds
USZ7=Dec 30y Bonds

George Cole
(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:52 - ID#430205)
interest rates
Looks like the Europeans are moving to put a break on runanway
stock speculation and the soaring dollar. The big bull may not
be dead yet, but it sure like a significant correction is getting underway.

If I were in Greenspan's shoes I would much rather try to tame the bull by covertly nudging up gold prices rather than taking the heat for hiking interest rates.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:54 - ID#36965)
Joke of the morn
Good morning all. I'm back from the spa, sweating and polluting the area but did want to give a big cheer to our friendly metals which are causing us to breath with greater frequency now. The paper market makes me hark back to the story which follows:

So one day, Gramma sent her grandson Johnny down to the
water hole to get some water for cooking dinner. As he was
dipping the bucket in, he saw two big eyes looking back at
him. He dropped the bucket and hightailed it for Gramma's

"Well now, where's my bucket and where's my water?"

Gramma asked him. "I can't get any water from that water hole,
Gramma" exclaimed Johnny. "There's a BIG ol' alligator down

"Now don't you mind that ol' alligator, Johnny. He's been there
for a few years now, and he's never hurt no one. Why, he's
probably as scared of you as you are of him!"

"Well, Gramma," replied Johnny, "if he's as scared of me as I
am of him, then that water ain't fit to drink!"

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:56 - ID#348286)
@More Bailouts: Thailand has $91.6 billion in foreign currency debt, with Japanese banks accounting for nearly half of that amount.
Thursday October 9 8:35 AM EDT

FOCUS-Thailand appeals to Japan, gets new trade insurance

By Yoko Kobayashi

TOKYO, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Thai Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh appealed on Thursday for Japanese companies to keep their faith in Thailand, and his finance minister said foreign investment was the key to Thailand's economic recovery.

In a meeting with Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, Chavalit also assured Thailand's main trade partner he was determined to live up to the terms of an IMF rescue plan.

Chavalit, along with Finance Minister Thanong Bidaya and other top officials, is on a two-day visit to Japan to boost investor confidence in the Thai economy.

``My commitment is that we in Thailand are doing our best to improve the investment environment and make Thailand a better place for Japanese firms to do business, Chavalit said in a speech to Japanese business leaders.

During a meeting between the two leaders, Hashimoto offered both advice and pledged $8.0 billion in a fresh trade and investment insurance plan.

Of the total, $7.0 billion will be extended in conventional trade insurance and $1.0 billion in two new insurance schemes covering investment and imports, Japanese officials said.

He also said Japan would send 1,000 experts to help Thailand's economic restructuring programme and consider disbursing more Japanese government loans to small firms.

Chavalit had asked Japanese creditors to roll over debts of Thai firms and extend new, bigger credits to the private sector.

``I urge Japanese financial institutions to be more flexible by rolling over short-term loans and being proactive in extending higher levels of new loans, he said in his speech to businessmen.

Thailand has $91.6 billion in foreign currency debt, with Japanese banks accounting for nearly half of that amount.

Chavalit started his day by meeting leaders of major Japanese businesses including Honda Motor Co, Mitsubishi Corp and Mitsui & Co, and asked them to keep investing in their Thai subsidiaries and to increase exports from them.

Japan is Thailand's biggest trading partner and its investors were among those who helped fuel Thailand's boom decade from 1985-95 when the country had annual average economic growth of nearly nine percent.

But with the Thai economy in trouble, Thanong said economic growth this year was likely to be less than two percent.

Hashimoto's advice to Chavalit was for Thailand to lift restrictions on foreign investment, speed up value-added tax returns, reconsider corporate tax levied on sales rather than profit, introduce efficient and transparent customs procedures and clamp down on illegal and violent trade union disputes.

``You have said all the things that were in my mind,'' a Japanese official quoted Chavalit as telling Hashimoto. ``But the most important thing is to live up to the IMF plan.''

Thailand was forced in August to accept an International Monetary Fund-brokered multilateral package worth $17.2 billion, of which Japan agreed to give $4.0 billion.

Whether that package will be enough to bail Thailand out of its economic woes hinges on whether investment from abroad will return, Thanong said.

``So far it is enough, but again, it depends on the confidence of foreign investors, he said.

Chavalit said in his speech it was possible for Thailand's economy to recover within two to three years.

``We aim to prove to the world that it is possible for Thailand to excel economically, to experience great economic challenges and then to recover within two to three years. Thailand has succeeded, faltered, and will succeed again.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:56 - ID#270116)
Nick, Donald & Jin:

It does appear that the currency crisis in Southeast Asia is drawing to a close. No doubt there will be lingering effects but the major panic wave is over. The likely course from here is that there is dollars selling because of the panic hedging which has been overdone. Whatever money was put into the gold market as a hedge against falling currencies is dwarfed by the money which moved into dollar denominated instruments. As the currencies settle down these will be somewhat unwound. The net of all this should be dollar selling throughout the region. At about a yield of 20% per annum, the Indonesian Rupia looks like a nice bet. We bought a small load a few days back.

The large scale implications of the crisis and how it unwinds effect greatly the inflation / deflation debate. Putting aside the theortical economics debate which hinges upon price / demand inelasticities etc. I think that it is important to focus upon the political aspects of this crisis and the likely political responses. It must be very clear to the G7 central banks that raising interest rates in the reserve currencies will have a leveraged debilitating effect upon the peripheral currencies which are in trouble. This knowledge is apt to influence their policy decisions in a dovish fashion. The general theme being played out by the major central banks is that monetary policy must be set easy enough so that those areas of the world with the weakest economies can be accomodated, even though other areas are growing too strongly. In the mid 1980's the US had a similar experience when monetary policy was made easy to accomodate the oil bust. In an effort to salve the energy economy the rest of the economy was allowed to grow unchecked. This led to the stock market bubble of that time. What is happening now appears to be the same thing except on a global basis. The bubble created is global in nature and of biblical proportion.

The final phase of liquidity bubbles has historically been a rise in tangible assets. Sooner or later, people with vast quantities of paper wealth look to translate this into physical assets. It is this investment demand which sends 'stuff' rocketing to absurd prices. This process is already underway in many markets, particularly those markets which are influenced most closely by those with extreme wealth. Prices of luxury apartments in Manhattan are skyrocketing, as are prices for top quality fine art. As the process spreads, eventually even the governments inflation statistics will be effected and the price of debt will be negatively effected. This is when it all ends.

Against this backdrop the PM's are looking just fine. Silver is looking particularly scrumptous. This rally is unfolding just like the other commodity rallies we have seen over the last few years where stockpiles have been drawn down. If the same script is followed there will be no pullback of significance and those waiting for a buying opportunity will watch in disbelief as the market heads higher. As the price begins to reach extreme levels the 'news' of declining inventory will become more and more prominent until everyone 'knows' what is happening. At this point we will be in the midst of the panic portion of the move where great volatile swings will be the order of the day.

The fundamentals of the Palladium market appear to be asserting themselves once again. If you buy into the theory that the Russian stockpiles have been dissapated then the metal which has come to market over the last few months would just be that metal which is has been newly mined. Given that no metal was delivered for the first half of the year, stockpiles produced during the first half of the year are now entering the market along with current production. If the production numbers of around 2MM oz/year are in the ballpark then the stockpiles built in the begining of the year will be about exhausted at the end of the year. This will mean that somewhere over the wintertime supply coming out of Russia will revert back to current production rates. Worldwide production is still some 2 million ounces a year short. The next squeeze will probably cause a real rationing of demand. The price at which this occurs may be near the $300 level.

With so many of the bear faithful conceding that a rally to new highs in the Dow is all but inevitable, perhaps the big surprise is that the top is really in. All the classical top signs are there, especially the meteoric rise in small cap signs and even a rally in the gold stocks. Stocks and bonds may head lower in tandem until the day of reckoning.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 09:57 - ID#348286)
@More Bailouts: Thailand has $91.6 billion in foreign currency debt, with Japanese banks accounting for nearly half of that amount.
Thursday October 9 8:35 AM EDT

FOCUS-Thailand appeals to Japan, gets new trade insurance

By Yoko Kobayashi

TOKYO, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Thai Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh appealed on Thursday for Japanese companies to keep their faith in Thailand, and his finance minister said foreign investment was the key to Thailand's economic recovery.

In a meeting with Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, Chavalit also assured Thailand's main trade partner he was determined to live up to the terms of an IMF rescue plan.

Chavalit, along with Finance Minister Thanong Bidaya and other top officials, is on a two-day visit to Japan to boost investor confidence in the Thai economy.

``My commitment is that we in Thailand are doing our best to improve the investment environment and make Thailand a better place for Japanese firms to do business, Chavalit said in a speech to Japanese business leaders.

During a meeting between the two leaders, Hashimoto offered both advice and pledged $8.0 billion in a fresh trade and investment insurance plan.

Of the total, $7.0 billion will be extended in conventional trade insurance and $1.0 billion in two new insurance schemes covering investment and imports, Japanese officials said.

He also said Japan would send 1,000 experts to help Thailand's economic restructuring programme and consider disbursing more Japanese government loans to small firms.

Chavalit had asked Japanese creditors to roll over debts of Thai firms and extend new, bigger credits to the private sector.

``I urge Japanese financial institutions to be more flexible by rolling over short-term loans and being proactive in extending higher levels of new loans, he said in his speech to businessmen.

Thailand has $91.6 billion in foreign currency debt, with Japanese banks accounting for nearly half of that amount.

Chavalit started his day by meeting leaders of major Japanese businesses including Honda Motor Co, Mitsubishi Corp and Mitsui & Co, and asked them to keep investing in their Thai subsidiaries and to increase exports from them.

Japan is Thailand's biggest trading partner and its investors were among those who helped fuel Thailand's boom decade from 1985-95 when the country had annual average economic growth of nearly nine percent.

But with the Thai economy in trouble, Thanong said economic growth this year was likely to be less than two percent.

Hashimoto's advice to Chavalit was for Thailand to lift restrictions on foreign investment, speed up value-added tax returns, reconsider corporate tax levied on sales rather than profit, introduce efficient and transparent customs procedures and clamp down on illegal and violent trade union disputes.

``You have said all the things that were in my mind,'' a Japanese official quoted Chavalit as telling Hashimoto. ``But the most important thing is to live up to the IMF plan.''

Thailand was forced in August to accept an International Monetary Fund-brokered multilateral package worth $17.2 billion, of which Japan agreed to give $4.0 billion.

Whether that package will be enough to bail Thailand out of its economic woes hinges on whether investment from abroad will return, Thanong said.

``So far it is enough, but again, it depends on the confidence of foreign investors, he said.

Chavalit said in his speech it was possible for Thailand's economy to recover within two to three years.

``We aim to prove to the world that it is possible for Thailand to excel economically, to experience great economic challenges and then to recover within two to three years. Thailand has succeeded, faltered, and will succeed again.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:05 - ID#386276)
Hi, I'm not Nick in Canberra. I couldn't live there - too cold.
I hail from Cairns, in the tropical north Queensland. I used to be a KIWI but traded in my gumboots for thongs-jandals.
Another 'perfect day in paradise' here today. Temp 20-29 degrees C.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:07 - ID#2082)
n your Mark! Get Set!
Gunner - Did you get some of that Mark?? Let's hope so...h M!

Ted - Mornin'! I heard you 3000 miles...



George Cole
(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:28 - ID#430205)
stock market action
U.S. stocks doing pretty well today considering that long-term bond yields have moved back over 6.4%. Just another modest correction. New highs in the Dow still likely before long. The time to start worrying ( or hoping ) for the finale is when stocks go down sharply FOR NO APPARENT REASON.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:28 - ID#386276)
This sites a must. Lots of comments, quotations about the markets and even some comments about gold. Plus a good URL bank.

Oz overnite futures still falling.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:35 - ID#2082)
That was a nice piece of work. Good to here from you. Do you guys have some Mark?

George - Why do you ( hope ) for a stock market crash?

Nick ( of time ) - is Canberra up in the hills?

Go Platinum!


(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:40 - ID#386276)
Out in the sticks.
Out in the hills
Down the hill.
Seems pretty apt description for where our pollies hang out. Canberra.
No offence Nick@C

(Thu Oct 09 1997 10:52 - ID#258224)
@...Bart Kitner
Bart: Can you please move the price link to the top of the page. Often, the discussion page is not fully loaded as the transmission cuts cut-off. If someone want ed to check the price of gold, the way you have the link designed now, the entire page "must" load before the link to gold prices is visible. I do not know the frames version. perhaps this is the solution. Please move the price link to the top of the page or punblish the frame version URL. Thanks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:07 - ID#258427)
George ... can you provide some insight into this morning's action...
Sure looks like "they" are trying awfully hard to keep the ball up in the air, with PM ( spot ) being sold and stox not down nearly enough to be in line with the rest of the world or AG... Looks fisy to me...Comments?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:07 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Any further drop targets to just below 330 on the Dec gold contract, and very quickly at that! Don't get caught.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:08 - ID#258427)
@fat fingers

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:12 - ID#224149)
Watch the next move up!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:12 - ID#30116)
For all of you Schwab users.... They are off-line again! You can't trade through them at their web site or direct through e.Schwab.

What's that commercial they run all of the time?? something about not being able to trade????

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:17 - ID#240142)
@some consolidation move!!!!!!!
Anybody checked silver lately? Look out below........

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:25 - ID#357115)
Don't be coy, Watcher, cough up what you know or else ice it!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:31 - ID#246224)
Uris, Nick@Canberra - NASDAQ does not publish P/E on its composite. But I can tell you that the P/E's on most tech stocks ( which make up a large % of NASDAQ listings ) indicate that they are grossly, hideously over priced. If the DOW goes down 30% I would not be suprises to see NASDAQ drop 50-60%. Its a dream world there. The nightmare is soon to come upon the starry-eyed believers in technology's future position in this economy. People are betting that every company will become another Microsoft success story. BTW what happened to FORD, GM, etc in 1929 - 31 market. Weren't they the up and comings then?

Gusto Oro
(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:33 - ID#377235)
We need some unexpected news to shoot gold up $5. Stock market still down 31.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:37 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Tentacles -- He knows trend lines. The major supports are seriously being tested as we speak!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:41 - ID#271215)
hope@springs eternal
Be encouraged things are looking up. If gold would drop slightly below $330 to take out the weak hand and buying come in at this price then technically we should be on solid ground. I am very encouraged by my charts which show the 10 day moving average crossing up through the 30 day moving average first on most all of my gold daily charts and next on the weekly version as well. I haven't seen this much hope in these charts since 1993.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:44 - ID#426220)
Acclaimed Compuserve Gold & Silver King has returned from the North Woods to share his considerable wisdom. Hes found a pure silver play worth watching:

Paper ULL
(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:46 - ID#22650)
watch out bear
The Bull is Back. For all the real money makers. You sell 'em, We buy 'em. Go Paper!! Join up! and sin NO more!

Or will the bears come back from lunch and trash the place


(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:46 - ID#240142)
@I don wanna go to bed!!!!!!!
Papa Greenspan speaks and the market reacts...just like my six year old boy! When he's tired he is stubborn!!!!!!He won't do anything I say!!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 11:52 - ID#246224)
Equities were way down then buy those dips you market riders. Even Gabrelli is telling people to buy now. I suppose the world 'out there' will have to teach us a lesson in humility as it has with SE Asia. So it looks like Hong Kong is getting hit. Japan is staring at oblivion in its exposure to SE Asian economies. Didn't anyone ever tell them about diversification? Speaking of which, we are vulnerable to their over investment in T-Bills as they sell off. No doubt the increases in CA and European rates portend further increase until we 'get it'. Looks like Ag bounced off of 5.15 and Au off of 330.

We're in for a ride. Just a short drop and then..the sky. Oil at US$50???

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:04 - ID#426220)
Homestake Mining Will Reach New All Time Heights... - bb fisher
Internationally acclaimed Technical Analyst has performed another insightful study destined to be called THE Homestake Mining Prophecy. His analysis exudes incisive thinking, and is expressed with great clarity:

George Cole
(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:17 - ID#430205)
market action
Eldorado: Another great call!. Your feel for the short-term fluctuations of the gold market is unsurpassed on this site. I always look forward to your posts.

Gold stocks holding up well ( so far ) in view of $3.00 drop in bullion. As I have said several times, this is the time to be buying the dips. Very dangerous to chase rallies at this stage -- especially when upside volume is lacking.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:19 - ID#338126)
If we get the gap at 330.90 basis Dec filled we're done with our correction

past lives
(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:24 - ID#224129)
denton tex
Denton Texas was your former name " Big Bad Wolf ?"

Richard Burke
(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:26 - ID#411318)
Denton and Allen: Spot has just gone "slightly below" 330. Fifteen minutes ago Dec gold was around 331 with support it seems at 330. This would indeed see spot go a point or two below 330. XAU went up this AM and then retreted to slightly below where Deaner thought but hopefully ready for a rise as Dec gold settles.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:30 - ID#335188)
@for U
LONDON, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - The precious metals party paused on Thursday as the main players gold, silver and platinum gave away some of their recent gains to leave palladium as the only one left standing.

Gold's early firmness disappeared as the London fix marked it 35 cents lower than in the morning, at $333.40 per ounce, and then the spot price shed $2.20 on its previous London close to hit $331.20/$331.60.

Silver took even more of a hit, dropping 12 cents on its Wednesday London close to trade at $5.17/$5.19 at one point.

Platinum also gave back some of Wednesday's ten-dollar rally to trade at $431.50/$433.50, down $2.70 on its previous close.

Palladium added to Wednesday's gains by adding a further $1.50 to its London close to trade at $204.50/$206.50.

Partly responsible for the reverse in the main metals was a steadying of New York stock prices after they dropped sharply on opening, a morning-after reaction to comments made by U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan about stock prospects.

``The Dow Jones ( Industrial Average ) seems to be holding quite well. People thought that if the Dow took another whacking today, gold might make it up through $335,'' one dealer said.

``It seems the scare was not as big as people thought it was,'' said the dealer, who added that gold now looked bearish.

``I am a bit worried that now it's tested below $331 a couple of times if it goes down there once or twice more, we could see it breaking through to $327,'' he said.

Russia threw only strictly limited light on recent worries about the country's stocks of white metals platinum and palladium, responding cryptically to questions on stocks.

``What platinum stocks there were we still have,'' said Vladimir Rybkin, head of the Russian Finance Ministry's precious metals section, in response to Reuters questions in Moscow.

He added that palladium stocks were in no danger of disappearing any time soon.

Russia did not start its 1997 supply of platinum and palladium to Japan, the world's largest consumer of both, until the second half of this year, after delays blamed on bureaucracy and other factors.

Those delays sent prices for both metals soaring.

Japanese traders said earlier on Thursday that concerns over Russian supplies were resurfacing there as new contract talks

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:31 - ID#194311)
Up, up, up and awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:32 - ID#365216)
platinum coins
I received an offer from Monex in the mail for buying the new
Liberty $100 face value platinum coins. Is Monex a reputable firm?
Are the new platinum coins a good buy? thanks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:44 - ID#333131)
@staws in the wind on wages
I just heard a local story on the news here in Kalamazoo Michigan that local retailers looking to hire for the holiday season are having to pay up to $10/hr. These are ordinarily $5.50 - $6.50 jobs in this area. More significant than the fact itself, is probably the fact that it's on the news. It will most certainly lead to unrest and job shopping by people presently employed. The official unemployment rate is under 3% here.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 12:45 - ID#246224)
RBurke - thanks for the insight. I'm not an intra/inter-day trader - I'm way to dense and slow for that. Buy the physical. 1-5 year outlook. So the daily flux doesn't concern me to much ( except, of course, when the chart rise makes the air around your head a bit breezy - that's pretty exciting! ) . I *know* the longer term for Au/Ag/Oil complex is through the roof. And when *everyone* else has finally figured it out then its time to move to the latest unloved prospect. All of this for appreciation and capital preservation, but mainly at this point the latter.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:00 - ID#213265)
@the scene
The number that I'm kind'a looking for on the Dec gold is 329.3.

Dec. Silver JUST broke through 5.15. Could be headed for 5.05-5.00!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:02 - ID#271215)
Sorry I don't know this "Big Bad Wolf". Gold is falling hard but xau not so hard. Maybe this is a shake out or a spring to higher ground. Lets hope so.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:03 - ID#213265)
@the scene
According to EBN, I'll be seeing 329.3 and even less!!! What a washout!

Richard Burke
(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:07 - ID#411318)
@Gail-force winds in Gulf of Georgia
Allen: I am not a day trader either, but looking for one of the dips George Cole talks about to buy gold stocks. I have been using Kinross, TVX and Placer Dome on TSE to trade through ten point + rises in the XAU. Hopefully, we are getting close to the big rise. For the long term I also hold High River Gold ( HRG, Toronto ) , and Golden Phoenix ( GPXM, NASDQ ) as in-the-ground plays with significant potential.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:10 - ID#426220)
The major problem facing the EMU caused the Bretton Woods Agreement ( Gold Standard ) to fail. Medium to long-term GOLD WILL BE the greatest single beneficiary of the EMU:

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:11 - ID#258427)
Who's doing 'dat'
Somebody is selling spot gold HARD...DOWN 6.20---6.00 ... BUT silve took a bounce...Really weird action this are not acting like they should ( or is it like I want them to!! )

Richard Burke
(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:12 - ID#411318)
@Oh! Oh!
Did spot gold really drop $2.50 a minute ago - if so I am lost at sea. this may be a big dip George.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:13 - ID#224149)
Gold-325 looks for a bounce cash market ?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:17 - ID#354133)
Gold seems to be acting as I experienced it earlier this year - when the DOW drops, so does the gold & silver. Is it just me, or do others see this too?

General - RE Monex: They are large, have been around a long time, offer outstanding products, and have competitve rates/commissions, so I guess that makes them reputable. However, you need to know exactly what you want before you deal with them. READ THIS AS: be careful which broker you get. They offer a lot of services and some of the brokers will try to sell you something you may not really want. I have been less than pleased with three of the four folks I've dealt with at that company. I am pleased with the other individual ( so far - hint, hint ) and could recommend with a clear concious. Post your E-mail address on Kitco if you're interested... PS - How's the M-16?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:23 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Wherever it's going, it seems to be in an awful hurry to get there. It has retreated beyond my short term expectations, so I'm not in a big hurry to go long until it settles in somewhere!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:24 - ID#258427)
Attack on AG and AU
I believe that we are witnessing a concerted attack on PM's in an attempt to keep the paper alive...shows the POWER of the paper bulls... but in the :.....: run ( fill in the blank ) ... it is unsustainable. Sell PM's, buy stox ... desperation moves!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:33 - ID#271215)
hope@still spring eternal
I not an expert in these matters simply trying to apply what I read. Suppose you are a professional in making money and you like gold. Are you going to buy at the high point or are you going to force the price down where you can get it cheaper. Suppose you know that many people have places sell orders if the price gets to $329.50 slightly below the $330 level. By driving the price through the $330 level selling is going to intensify and you are going to pick up your position much cheaper that if you bought on the way up. All of this selling is forcing the price down but the question we want answered is will buying overpower these sellers and drive prices back up. If so, hope springs eternal.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:37 - ID#252312)
As several have said already -- someone is selling gold and silver again. I suspect the powers that be don't want a repeat of Oct 1987 when gold rallied -- this may be a desperation ploy. The problem is that we don't know how much reserves are left -- how long can one push gold down to 320/oz? It seems to me that the powers that be are repeating the same mistakes the Central Banks made before 1972 -- just sell gold to keep the dollar strong. Its just a matter of time before this fails, and all we can do in the meanwhile is keep our powder dry. I sold 1/2 of my gold stock investments yesterday, amd am wondering why I didn't sell the rest. From the long term trends, this is probably that last bearish "gasp" that the Oldman, and ( ?RJ ) wer talking about. I will be buying more gold stocks when this current bear bottoms. I cannot believe we will ever go below $318/oz for more that a week.

Richard Burke
(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:41 - ID#411318)
@gail winds rise as gold drops
My in-the-ground gold stocks have held steady this AM. Looks like a much better buy opportunity for my trading stocks than I had thought for today. But, where is next support for Dec gold - my inexperienced eye saw 330 but that din't hold - is 320 the next stop?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:43 - ID#371247)
Just tuned in to see the metals tanking again. Just when I begin to love them they turn on me--Not unlike some girls I dated in high school, except they were nicer. When the metals markets stink I am reminded of the Goldfinger movie where Goldfinger had to extricate his gold from the car and his disgruntled investor which somehow found their way into the scrap metal crusher. I'm afraid the gold market is giving us the finger a good deal of the time.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:45 - ID#252312)
Donald: Any more news on the debt situation in China? No matter how your slice it its hundreds of billions of dollars that the IMF doesn't have. Any idea how desperate the situation is -- I'm more concerned about who loaned the money -- perhaps we are going to have one of those international "debt restructuring" deals like what happened in the 80's I believe. Let's hope no key world-class banks are up to their eyeballs.

Gusto Oro
(Thu Oct 09 1997 13:57 - ID#377235)
Come on metals, the Dow is down 50--what more do you want? Hey, the longer we go without new highs in the Dow while other indices push up the less likely there ever will be new highs, in this century anyway.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:06 - ID#348286)
This is one Fk-ed up PM market!
Lots of stops got taken out today.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:08 - ID#252132)
@ Done:
The December Coxmex Gold Futures contract has now closed its gap opening of late September.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:11 - ID#252132)
@ I need a spell checker:
That's Comex Dec Futures on the DAILY chart.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:12 - ID#426220)
LBMA EXPOS: PART 5 (October 7, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
London Bullion Marketing Association is best described as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Daily gold trading NEARLY TWICE South Africas annual Gold Mine production:

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:13 - ID#318321)
At just about 9:45 a.m. eastern time gold started its drop, also at that very same time the dow reversed direction from its precipitous drop. You can't tell me that there isn't some sort of coordinated effort keeping this rube goldberg special together. Manipulated markets suck!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:17 - ID#252312)
To all: What would you do if you were A Greenspan, and you had a currency collapse that involved 1/3 of the world, and the world currency is still dollars? Ans: Print dollars like crazy! How would you prevent the inflationary consequences at home ( and elsewhere? ) . Ans: Sell gold. I don't know how one does this without buying something else, but perhaps some clever economic gurus have figured out how to do this with some kind of derivative gold trading at the LBMA. E-gold to the rescue again? I think what has happened is the the Central Banks ( and LBMA ) are using derivatives to amplify the effect of their gold to achieve the activity that we now see. However, my intuitive feeling is that no matter how cleaver they are, the game is still up when they run out of gold, or they come to their senses. Derivative gold trading just delays the inevitable.
Is ANOTHER right? Is part of the problem that oil prices are aboout to go up more, and the LBMA has to sell gold to boost the dollar?
The alternative is that this is all speculative trading. This seems unlikely due to the magnitude of the trend for the last 1 1/2 years, but I bow to the gold gurus on this.

Richard Burke
(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:18 - ID#411318)
@Gail continues but has XAU bottomed?)
My delayed charts show the XAU hitting resistance at 105 and coming up a bit. The 104/05 area is an area of major support. Are we up from here? Does someone else have come good technical or fundamental ideas as to direction from here?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:21 - ID#213265)
@the scene
The retrace of Dec gold to 327.00 is 66% of the whole distance up from
320 to 340.5, with the 66% being a percentage that Dr. Doom says that gold will oftentimes use in a retracement. Soooo, Take it as you will.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:22 - ID#252312)
LSteve: Perhaps you have the answer! What better thing to buy with your gold than the DOW? Buy whatever you think is weakest, because that may hold the rest of the market up. As I recall our AG was only on the job for a few months before Oct 17, 1987, and he will certainly not let that happen again on its 10-year anniversary!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:33 - ID#194311)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:35 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Watch out on the corn. It'll either continue up or fall very shortly! It is time for a bit of correction in it. Just be aware.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:39 - ID#390214)
Interest rates (Netherlands,Denmark,Belgium)
The day got off to a poor start as traders reacted to news of higher European interest rates. The Deutsche Bundesbank,
Germany's central bank, boosted its key securities repurchase rate to 3.30 percent from 3.00 percent. The move is significant
as it represents the Bundesbank's first rate hike in over five years. The Bank of France followed suit, upping its intervention rate
to 3.30 percent from 3.10 percent. Additionally, central banks in the Netherlands, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium all hiked
short-term interest rates.
Higher European rates result in a weaker U.S. dollar, thereby increasing the attractiveness of holding European securities as
opposed to those denominated in U.S. dollars.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:44 - ID#252132)
@ One Hand Washes The Other:
Yesterday the XAU was up about 3.15 today, at this time it's down 3.28. So far, it's a wash. What's the problem? : ) ) )

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:47 - ID#213265)
@the scene
I do mean that last one to refer to market-time/tomorrow, of course. It just may be that the overnight markets will provide the clue to direction on the corn.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:49 - ID#18970)
GSC Do you still think Greenspan wants gold to go up to prick the financial bubble.Looks like the mkts are going for the stops. Someone aptly posted here a few days ago that gold had to go back below 330 as all advisors had said go long with stops below 330. Looks like a good prediction. Tomorrow should be interesting with the inevitable good PPI report and anything else put out to confirm the goldilocks economy. We either stop here or it is back to crashville followed by the inevitable 5 dollar range for the following 14 wks. What ye all think?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:49 - ID#255285)
What's all this, i go to sleep for a few measly hours and look waht happens to my precious. TED what did ya do mon?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:52 - ID#377382)
I understand that you can draw chart trendlines a 100 different ways to support whatever viewpoint you may have. With that said, my charts tell me that gold and silver have just come back to test their breakout from a previous downtrend line ( especially silver on a weekly bar chart ) . This retest is normal and essential if the original breakout is for real. Obviously, we will soon see one way or the other. Any further significant breakdown from here may just spell continuing bear. On the other hand......

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:53 - ID#216107)
tough day
Schwab's computer trading has been down most of the day. I wonder how it felt if someone was trying to make that key trade.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 14:58 - ID#364147)
@ holy Sh!t
Just in from doing carpentry+ chores and I see gold down 6.0 and the XAU down 3.53....Should have known the day after Greenspan warned of inflationary pressures that the gold market would'd think that a European rate-rise would = a lower U.S. Dollar= higher gold ( where is my thinking ( ? ) wrong???

(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:04 - ID#364147)
@ Aurator
Hey you can see from my previous I just got in and clicked on the boob-tube and saw the carnage...Am in the dark as much as you mon..Guess gold didn't like thr rate-rises in!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:10 - ID#213265)
@the scene
WW -- I think gold tanked today and that it'll continue down or go back up. A 66% retracement in gold is an important milestone. Now to see if that was ALL it was! By the way, these 'numbers' depend on whos' charts you look at. Some charts do include overnight action whereas some don't.
Another reason to take everything with a partial grain of salt. So, who's on first?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:15 - ID#224149)
Ted-wait a few days and have some Screech.Happy Trails

The Major
(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:36 - ID#372425)
@The Rumor-Mill
Heard a short blurb about Venezuela selling gold.Anyone hear/see it?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:40 - ID#365216)
Gunrunner: thanks in advance for the recommendation on Monex
dealers. I finally got my paperwork in to the ATF for approval
to accept ownership of the M16. Hopefully, in about two months
or sooner, I can take possession from the dealer. Its a non-COlt
shorty which bothers me some but I had to opt to get the lesser
expensive model. A test fire will tell I guess.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:41 - ID#228128)
Looking at Bart's charts the carnage in both silver and gold began at the same time ( approx. 9:30 ) . Did they get some bad news at the same time, or is this an organized attack on precious metals?

Bill Buckler
(Thu Oct 09 1997 15:52 - ID#257234)
Just woke up and saw the Gold price ( it's 5:45 AM here ) . This was totally a U.S. market sell off. Gold's London PM fix was 333.40, up $US 0.80 from the previous day's fix. On Comex, gold was up $1.20 after the first hour's trade.

The early morning reports here in Oz claim Gold selling out of the Middle East, where peace has just broken out again.

This one flies firmly in the face of the charts, but then Gold has done that before. Have to have a good look around and then I'll update the pages at my website. It certainly smells very interesting.

Bill Buckler
(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:05 - ID#257234)
Major ( 15:36 ) Venezuela blurb concerns statement by Finance Minister that Venezuela would not sell gold to pay external debt. Statement made in very late trade in NY, after the gold price fall.

See Bridge News at

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:15 - ID#26793)
Nick@Canberra: A brother Kitcoite is trying to get hold of you by e.mail. He is having a problem posting and called me asked me to post a message to you. His e.mail address is

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:23 - ID#364147)
@ Grant's Interest Rate Observer
James Grant on CNBC: Says treasurys are the best-buy @ the moment...Likes some of those beaten down equities in S.E.Asia ......Didn't mention gold but did say ( again ) that U.S. equities are headed for a fall---"this is not a new era"....Poorboys: I know what "Newfie Screech" is but what the hell is Screech Happy Trails???...doesn't take much of the Newfie Screech to get!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:27 - ID#364147)
@ The Donald
Belated good mornin Donald! Weather 48+ mostly cloudy...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:27 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 24.64 This reading does not indicate any cause for concern by the price activity today.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:29 - ID#217268)
Does anyone know when the next FOMC meeting is scheduled ?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:33 - ID#269218)
Final shake-out of the "weak-sisters". I believe the drop in gold & silver today, along with the mining shares, is the final 'shake-out' of any remaining "weak 'bulls/longs" -- weakly-committed investment capital, regarding the precious metals.

In my Sept. 22nd, discussion post here, I spoke of the "WILD-CARDS" ( -meaning "achille's heel" ) for the stock-market, which were, and still are: the energy group ( ex.- Crude Oil is substantially higher now, than it was 9/22 ) ; the grains-markets ( - which are also 'warming-up' ) ; and the foreign-currencies ( -where upside momentum is building, as the U.S. dollar begins to 'stumble' ) .

The CRB index is mapping out a chart pattern that is very bullish...the 'smell' of inflation is in the air.

The current shake-out in precious metals will not last. It is most likely, the last, best time of opportunity, for long-term investors, as well as for short-term oriented traders, interested in the gold and silver markets.

David Macrory

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:37 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .323 This reading is still "blue" and in risky territory where it has been for some weeks. The Auger number is 3.10 and if we are doing this right it says the XAU trend is still up. This is still a new and untested way of looking at the XAU so caution is advised. Comments and other opinions are encouraged.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:42 - ID#26793)
HiTed: This has been the best week of the entire year. 65-75, low humidity, sunny with a light breeze.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 16:55 - ID#364147)
@ Donald
Donald: Sounds like perfect fall weather but none of that warm stuff has made it up this way...don't think we got above 55 this week and have been using the wood furnace @ night...sun is setting-very pretty! Time for din din...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:10 - ID#390214)
Russia committed to buy gold
MOSCOW, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Russia's central bank bought 15.85 tonnes of gold from commercial banks during the first nine
months of the year, Sergei Kyshtymov, head of the bank's precious metals' directorate, was quoted as saying on Thursday.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:12 - ID#246224)
What is it EB would say at this point? Oh MY! Indeed!

Down in the holl'er, ol' farmer AG was concerned that his bull had wandered into his Mrs's garden and was not doin' it any good. So the good farmer decided he'd better 'shoo' his bull back into the barn. You see its about hunting season out in these parts and people expect to see livestock where they should be, which is not where he was at the time. And knowing that hunters tend to be willing to shoot first and to ask questions latter, farmer AG decided he'd need to get his bull back to where he belonged. This would also help the Mrs's feelings abit since the bull was starting to eat up her prized Asters'. So farmer AG went to get his fly swatter to beat that bull over the head with. He gave him one good wack and expected that he'd get the picture and wander off back to the barn. The bull was quite startled. He shakes his head and steps back determinedly. ( At this point the curtain falls. Now the crowd titters nervously, knowing that when the curtain rises they expect to see farmer AG get flattened even with that fly swatter in his hand. During this intermission a few folks who are good buddies of farmer AG decide they will help a little bit. During intermission they get out their 'swatters and wave them about once or twice to get the crowds attention. "There. That will certainly get that bulls attention." they say. Curtain rises. ) Farmer AG has left the scene. The bull looks a bit perplexed since he expected just as much as the audience to see farmer AG standing there holding his 'swatter. Now you've got to understand that bulls are, as a group, and I don't mean this to be sexist in any way, not real sharp. So this bull decides to step back a bit more since that is what he did after getting swatted. The audience roars with laughter. The bull decides that this was just his imagination since he had been dozing a few moments prior to getting swatted. And well possibly it hadn't really happened. And seeing that there was no one with a swatter standing there to do nasty things to, the bull decided to continue grazing for a while on Mrs AG's asters. Now this was not quite what the boys on the fence were looking for. They had seen AG getting his 'swatter out and expectin' ta have a really good show. They had bought tickets because they expected that this bull was goin' right back in that barn. Given the earnestness of the effort on farmer AG's part they were in for a neat little profit, having made wagers on how fast that bull would get. But low and behold after seeing the bull back up just one step, then just a second step, and knowing that THAT did not look like he was runnin' off, and that farmer AG was nowhere to be seen, they decided that maybe they had better 'GET WHILE THE GETTIN WAS GOOD', as they say in these parts. So now we have the bull with a quizical and yet contented look on his muzzle having just realized that fly swatters are just basicly NOT that important and that he can do just as well as he pleases, when he pleases. Now the only problem with the situation is that just over the hill, to the east there's this fella, in huntin' garb, loading his riffle with high powered, hard point bonds. His family hasn't had a very good year and he's got 'the hunger', as they say; needs to bring home some provisions for the winter. He'd just spotted that 'deer' over next to farmer AG's house and once he's within sight that bull is definitely going to be 'provisions'. So I guess that about sums it up. I suppose old farmer AG , in the end, was right. That bull just went to far. Unfortunately he didn't have the sense to know when to get back in the barn, even for his own good. I suppose he didn't know it was huntin' season either.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:22 - ID#320102)
My March silver option got sold today :- ( Made some money but really wanted to hold out for the BIG run up. I guess I need my stop limits or my greed would break me. ANYWAY, my broker said there was going to be a lot of margin calls so to expect another sell off tomorrow.
Still have two gold options but not much optimism.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:33 - ID#222186)
Next FOMC meeting: Nov. 12, 1997

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:37 - ID#18970)
I have to get up to Canada soon mid to high 80s here through the weekend. Beautiful mid summer weather got a little sun burnt on Sun.
Looks like metals are in for another rout/ will be interesting to see if this is a typical rerun ie, Gold below 320 and quick/ silver in the 480s then churn.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:41 - ID#426220)
Rhino Alert.....RHINO ALERT!
The inimitable Mike Sheller has located another Rhino ready for the stalking. This time its the Copper Rhino currently grazing at support, but close to explosively emerging from inactivity:

Paul Simon
(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:51 - ID#22650)
Slip-Slidin' away... Slip-Slidin' awaaaaaaaay! The nearer your destination the more you're Slip-Slidin...


Paul Simon

(Thu Oct 09 1997 17:56 - ID#2082)
Hey Paul S.

You wouldn't be talking about GOLD would ya'? buy at the dips?!?? not...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:04 - ID#18970)
I think the CB stuff is rubbish as cash marts dont govern metals. The Wall St boys exploit technical and sentiment weakness to drive the metals down. As big financial asset peddlers one can understand. This is why bullishness on stks can last forever but as soon as there is metals bullishness RAID. Then the buying will always stop when any overt bullishness developed as had just happened. Pavlov's dog at work. Notice though that overt bearishness evident does not have a corrollary effect. Only shortages as evidenced by high lease rates are stymying
the Wall ST game. When supply and demand truly assert themselves, as they will, that is the end of the Wall St shenanigans. We are getting there. This will also mean the beginning of a more progressive political and economic system and the end of a deceitful ravenous oligarchic one.

Mike Stewart
(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:08 - ID#270253)
For many years, the United Services Gold Shares fund was full of South African issues. It was considered a play on this market. About three months ago, I read a Sunday New York Times article ripping into the fund for terrible long term performance caused by the South Africans. Most of the investors were of the buy-and-hold variety. This is laughable when you look at the fund's historical portfolio.

I just looked at the current makeup of the fund. Wow!! The number one holding is Barrick and large cap North Americans take five of the top ten positions. As a contrarian, you have to like this kind of thing. Everybody hates them.

Historically, if you buy stocks financially viable stocks below their Monthly Bollinger Bands and hold them until they hit their upper Bollinger Bands, you do very well. Just be patient in between.
Generally speaking, this work for any stock from high tech to steel to precious metals. Hang in there, sometimes it takes a while to make money.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:08 - ID#252312)
Donald/Mike Sheller: I was thinking some more about the China situation. News is sparse on this many hundred billion debt that the Chinese have. How can one find out how much of this debt is from looted bankrupt communist concerns that are not externally supported? The real power of china is in the modern, non-communist operated concerns.
It seems to me that the only real concern is how much debt is owed to foreign ( non continental chinese ) investors.
Without any further information, all I can do is follow chinese interest rates and exchange rates, or the chinese stock market. It is unlikely that any further crises will occur in SE Asia until we see turmoil in the Chinese financial markets. Perhaps we have been hoodwinked into a false sense of alarm, because of the horrendous "debt" in the communist companies.
Mike - What have you heard form your relatives. My relatives know little because they left Shanghai about 1948, and have little interest in communist china ( too many bad experiences ) .


George Cole
(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:14 - ID#430205)
Today's drop in bullion and the XAU certainly were more than I expected; and I had been anticipating a significant pullback. Someone sure wanted to blast the yellow today. Steep declines like this are almost always followed by further weakness, so this ain't over yet. Whether this is the final shakeout before the PMs take off big time will be determined by the strength of the next rally.

WW: I only speculated that Greenspan might not be adverse to higher gold prices as a way to cool overheated markets. But obviously I am not aware of his true thoughts on this matter.

On a more positive note, FSAGX fell just 1% today. Looks like the broad mass of gold stocks held up better than the XAU and HUI..

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:14 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Looking back through 'data', I find that moves down in gold like this do not begin and end in one day, support ( ? ) areas or not. Personally, I think we are below previous support and now looking for, and verifying a support area. Bouncing off of numbers is one thing. Finding the one that holds is another. In having gone to hell today, gold IS in that particular situation of having to 're-find' itself. Tomorrow and into/through, I think, tuesday, should put whatever writing on the wall that needs to be put. However, 'should' some numbers happen that somehow negate the 'usual' occur somehow, then, by ALL MEANS, partake! Personally, I WILL BE watching closely, for 'things' are indeed getting quite 'hot' out there!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:22 - ID#401460)
THEY, those that no one wants to talk about, in my opinion beat Gold down to reduce the CRB index, control the value of the dollar, and to maintain the perception of no inflation. This coupled with timely released weak economic reports, the week prior to a Fed mtg., creates the illusion of utopia. I am beginning to think that they are so good at manipulating the economic picture that this will go on forever.

Goldman Sachs is saying that the markets will continue to reach new highs. They should know there guy is head of the US Treasury Dept. Fed Bd. Member, Rivlin, reassured us today of what AG really said, and that we dont have to worry. Alice is one of the people appointed to the Fed by the President from his administration - she should be in the know. Therefore, maybe we should all jump into the market. PE of 135 NO PROBLEM! Lets bet the farm.

We had another project come in higher than estimates. And I just had to give 75% of my employees raises today. It took me over a month to replace an employee, and I worry every day if the new hires are going to show up for their first day of work.

Wendys has employee recruiting promos plastered all over the interior of their restaurants offering all kind of perks. You would think they were hiring a new CEO. Christmas workers, $ 10/hr you say, but they just told us retail sales were down. Question - If every body is working how come no one is buying?

Gold Bugs just remember it is peoples perceived value that matters. If they are made to think there is no inflation there is no inflation. If they are made to think that they rich than they are rich. A smaller box of cereal that cost the same as its larger predecessor its not inflation the price is the same it is just that the box is smaller. If Gold has little worth or, more importantly, little stability; why would one want to own Gold? By the way what are the Russians using to buy all that Gold?

Our President and First Lady greatly admire FDR who said  the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. FDR became a master of controlling the publics perception of World affairs. However, with all that said just remember that good old Abe said  that you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all the people all of the time. Or, sooner or later the s...t is going to hit the fan.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:39 - ID#173274)
@the scene
I find that a 'few' dollars put into or against the market at key short term resistance or support can make or break the market! It really doesn't take a lot of buying to put a market just above resistance when the price is at resistance to hit all the buy stops just above it, or to sell the market just above the current support to hit all the sell stops. In the stock markets here, the opposite tends to be usually true at this time. For a prime example, look at the 1 minute chart on the Dec gold and at the 331.4 where it just simply 'broke'! Just one super slide to 327 in that same minute! The same entity probably also had a buy order in at that point and then above. Amazing the havoc that can be caused with a 'few' bucks to work with!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:39 - ID#18970)
When supply demand rule the game will be over as perception is and always will be good based on what the govt says. When all that wanna be in are in it be over ala Nippon/ there was no news event there just spin. THE BIG QUESTION: Who in the world is not maxing into US stocks and bonds and shunning gold who has not acted on their beliefs.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:45 - ID#348452)
Does anyone have the full story on Venezuela's supposed gold sale? They have 11.4 mill. ozes in the vault.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 18:50 - ID#252132)
Glenn: If your lurking, do you have the final actual high, low and closing figures for the December Comex gold futures. One source, Quote.Com shows a high of $342.5 ( !!!! ) . Doesn't seem right. Can you confirm. Thanks.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:00 - ID#60253)
Gold is the only money the world has ever
known Sounds like a simple thought but
it isnt .
 Money is whatever people say it is
Not true!
Currency is whatever a government says
it is
The LBMA problem
I can now make clear for all to see.

Background; to understand the following
you must rethink your basic knowledge
of money and investments. Get your aspirin
Some time ago gold not only was used as
money but also circulated as currency. It had
always been money and people had no use for
a separate currency to represent gold money
so they stamped the gold itself and used it as
circulating currency. From the start, one thing
most thinkers cant quite grasp is that money
does not have to circulate! The first world
money, gold money that is, could stay locked
up and still represent value and wealth. People
had but to agree on who owned it in exchange for
goods and services. You have all read the articles
about how paper receipts for gold money were
later circulated and became paper currency receipts,
then paper currency, then just currency.
The western world today, as we know it does
not use money ! They use paper currency. To
fully understand what that really means you must
come to terms with this fact.  When you use paper
currency you are placing a value using another persons
concept of value You are using a thought as a means
of value! When an investment in stocks, bonds,
bank accounts, CASH, businesses
etc. is priced in US$ currency you are really holding
the intentions of providing value locked away in
the thoughts of another mind.
This type of human interaction works well for a time,
as the last 100 years or so proves. But, it is highly
unstable to say the least. It has its own self distruct
code written inside each mind. One day ( it has already
started ) a type of nuclear chain reaction will occur in the
currency markets as people start unvalueing the
thoughts of others. Little by little all debts owed will be
marked down .
Now that we understand that concept lets move on:
One of the great money troubles facing the western
currency system today is that many third world people
are starting to put a mind value on real money, gold.
These people dont know the true value of gold money
but they know its worth a whole lot more than the world
paper currency price now placed on it. And that brings
us to the next problem; how can paper currency that
represents the thoughts of a nation blowing in the wind
be used to value real money of ancient world class
proportions, gold? It cannot! Any price you can think
of will do, as in no price will work!
How did we come to this unworkable mess?
The best way to rework the publics mind about
gold money was by changing the way it was viewed.
Its money of course but lets also call it a
commodity! Then we can place a paper value
on it and denominate it in all forms of future contracts.
It will lose its true value as money in peoples minds
and be priced in an unrealistic paper format.
And here we are today!
The banks must sell all the gold they have to keep
the system togeather. And once it is all sold and the
financial markets implode the nations will use
whatever force is necessary to pull the gold back
in! That action in and of itself would show the true
value of gold money!
What of the LBMA mess?
Gold is cornered. Plain and simple. No complicated
theories, no options problems. The commodity value
of gold was forced so low in paper currency terms
that all of the new mined gold, going out some 10
years is spoken for. Between the third world buying
physical gold and the jewelry industry ( same people
buying ) there is none left for the oil states! They do
value oil in terms of gold, but not IN the paper
currency price of gold! How much is gold
worth in terms of
oil value? Just stop supplying gold to them in ultra
cheep US$ terms and you will find out by watching
the currency price of oil! In any event, LBMA has
traded so much paper/oil/gold that any rise in the
currency price of gold will implode them. The CBs
must become the full primary suppliers of gold
or the system as we know it is done.
One last note: No form of paper wealth will survive
the financial crush once the CBs stop selling!

Bob M
(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:00 - ID#26059)
Has anyone ever heard of an estimate on how much money it would take to corner the silver market? It seems to me that if the Hunt Brothers did what they did in 1979 with the price of silver pretty much the same as it is today, that in 1997 there is much more money sloshing around than there was then, so therefore it would be much easier to accomplish..any input??

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:02 - ID#173274)
@the scene
One more thought; It could ALL be simply driven by directing numbers to the screens. That's ALL it would really take, with everything else being total BS! Just make it 'look real'! Then polish it up with a story for the paper in the morning. HAR!

Mike Sheller
(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:08 - ID#347447)
Get Real...Get Gold!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:11 - ID#338147)
The only good thing about todays gold market is that the decline stoped at 327 basis Dec. 327 is a .6218 retracement of the recent rise

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:23 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Another -- Makes all kind of sense to me! The sentence "The banks must sell all the gold they have to keep the system togeather. And once it is all sold and the financial markets implode the nations will use whatever force is necessary to pull the gold back in! That action in and of itself would show the true value of gold money! ", I take it to mean that the price of gold will literally 'explode' to the upside, as they 'implore' the holders to sell. This being by means of both higher prices first, then by laws of 'confiscation' of one kind or another. God, Ground, Grub, Gold, and Guns. Sounds like a lot of all that they are in the process of taking away!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:28 - ID#18970)
As long as commerce accepts and pays for goods in paper what is the problem. Perhaps the current internationalization of labor and therefore the decrease in its bargaining power and value is the flip side of the coin of paper creation which keeps the acceptance of paper currency unquestioned. If Labor costs fall paper creation and credit will increase with a managed amount of Bankruptcy on the side. In sum, business would rather control labor costs right now than worry about demand. Afterall if a proliferigate bank lends too much on credit and it goes under than the taxpayers pay. If a person goes bankrupt and cant pay for anything then we pay now. Big business has a govt subsidized market that needs to push for further internationalization to keep labor costs down and profits growing. ( which WS demands, by the way ) Any movement to the left or Socialism is the death Knell for this over leveraged period of extreme continuing high expectations concerning revenues and profits and increasing concentration of wealth.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:31 - ID#348129)
Very True. The futures market is especially bad for Gold, because it makes it so easy to manipulate.
- It's secret, almost no-one knows who is buying or selling how much paper Gold ( ex: Australian CB sale ) .
- Almost all futures contracts are never delivered on, 99% I think. They are just used to take exsessively large positions without ever having to worry about buying or delivering the Gold.
- Large positions can be purchased for very little margin.
Again making it very easy to manipulate the product.
Of course if the price ever takes off, the leverage is incredible
and the losses on shorts would be staggering.

Walter Hersey
(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:41 - ID#48118)
This is a test. First time user.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:42 - ID#217260)
market rigging
Some big short seller was beginning to feel some pain-answer-start a central bank sell rumor, Venezula.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:48 - ID#335190)
SEC Chairman Levitt @ Threatening Business people-Congress can not write the rules ?
October 9, 1997
Gramm says SEC chief Levitt talk is "unacceptable"

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Sen. Phil Gramm attacked Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Arthur Levitt at a Banking Securities Subcommittee hearing Thursday, accusing him of "absolutely outrageous and unacceptable" behavior. Gramm, who chairs the committee, convened the hearing to discuss controversial new accounting rules on derivatives
prepared by the independent Financial Accounting Standards Board.

Congress has no role -- formal or otherwise -- in writing the rules. But congressional oversight hearings give members and witnesses a chance to air their views. The hearing came as FASB was gathering public comment on its proposed rules before approving them by year's end. They would take effect Jan. 1. Gramm, a Republican from Texas, and Levitt agree that the FASB -- and not Congress -- should write the rules. But Gramm, citing speeches Levitt gave in December and May, charged that the SEC chairman tried to discourage potential critics of the rules from coming to Congress.

"The idea that the chairman of the SEC is running around this country basically threatening business people not to come before the Congress, not to exercise their First Amendment rights to petition the government is absolutely outrageous and unacceptable," Gramm said in an opening statement. "People have a right to be heard," declared Gramm.

A spokesman for Levitt said the SEC chairman had urged those in the business community to let the FASB, and not Congress, write the rules.
But Gramm noted that the nation's large banks and Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan oppose the approach being taken by the FASB.
Witnesses from companies and banks expressed concern the rules would force them to disclose confidential information that could damage them competitively.

Sen. Paul Sarbanes, D-Md., said banks were opposed to the new standards just as they had opposed earlier standards that required new disclosure on bonds. "But the investor community found that a step forward," he said. Derivatives are contracts such as futures and options that are related to an underlying commodity or security.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:51 - ID#173274)
@the scene
WW -- I think "Another" said it all. I'll say that when the 'percievedness' of the paper, as is beginning to happen, is not as it was, then those same people, companies, states, and nations will of necessity look elsewheres for safety of their ASSets. And as has been most often stated here, the metals will be found to be the choice 'vehicle' of that safety, and for 'safe' transactions as no one will otherwise trust even the temporary transaction of 'currency'. A handwritten IOU under known good faith will be of more value than currencies, for usable and needful hard goods, no matter what they be, and will be of more value than any paper currencies. Paper is a confidence game, but metals are a value game. Is there really a choice? If so, it is only an aberration! One that WILL get rectified!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:55 - ID#390214)
Venezuela denies selling gold
CARACAS, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Venezuela denied Thursday reports it said appeared in international media that it was considering
an operation to reduce its foreign debt using some of its gold reserves.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:56 - ID#194225)
Gold down $6, with FDPMX down a bare fraction and FSAGX down less than a per cent?? This has to be good news for gold. Why in the world wouldn't stock values respond?????

May all have a fruitful and productive weekend. I'm slippin', I'm slidin', I'm gone.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:57 - ID#22985)
I believe it was Another or maybe Big Trader who said "oil and gold do not flow in the same direction". Does anyone have any evidence that oil-producing countries or their citizens ( other than Russia ) are accumulating gold?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 19:58 - ID#335190)
Federal Reserve @ All is well - No problem - They are in charge.
October 9, 1997
FOCUS-Fed's Rivlin sees scant signs of wage inflation

WASHINGTON ( Reuter ) - Federal Reserve Vice Chair Alice Rivlin said Thursday she saw few signs of U.S. wage pressures, helping to stabilize financial markets a day after Fed chief Alan Greenspan warned the U.S. economy may be on an unsustainable path.

Rivlin told CNBC television that wage increases so far had been moderate but warned that the central bank would have to remain vigilant for the first signs of inflationary pressures.

The benign combination of stable inflation, robust growth and low unemployment has baffled economists and Fed officials alike, who have attributed it to factors such as higher productivity, a strong dollar and increased worker insecurity.

Rivlin said the Fed would have to see a whole range of statistics indicating looming inflationary dangers before it would be tempted into tightening credit. If the economy should continue to grow in the second half at the same pace seen in the first half, Rivlin warned that inflation would result. But she cautioned: "Now, it's not clear that it will."

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:09 - ID#255190)

Just got some 'wind' in my hair. Boy those charts can sure move it, eh? Now THAT's excitement!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:10 - ID#335190)
October 9, 1997
German central bank raises interest rate to pre-empt inflation

FRANKFURT, Germany ( AP ) - Germany's central bank raised interest rates Thursday for the first time in more than five years, calling it a
precautionary move against inflation. Central banks in France, the
Netherlands and Denmark followed suit.

The German Bundesbank announced it was increasing its securities repurchase - or repo - rates through Oct. 22 to 3.3 per cent from three per cent, to pre-empt higher inflation and curb growth in the money supply. Following the Bundesbank's announcement, the Bank of France in Paris also raised its key interest rates to 3.30 per cent from a previous 3.10 per cent.

In Amsterdam, the Dutch central bank increased its fixed advance rate to
2.75 per cent from 2.5 per cent, and in Copenhagen the Danish central
bank raised its discount and repurchase rates a quarter point.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:11 - ID#390214)
Money Supply(no inflation, except stocks)
The broader M-3 measure rose $10.1 billion to $5,250.7 billion. M-1 was up $7.0 billion to $1,061.9 billion, the Fed said.

Gusto Oro
(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:12 - ID#377235)
"Kodachro-o-ome, it gives me those nice bright colors; it uses up the silver stockpiles. Oh mama don't take my Kodachrome away." Hey Paul Simon--if gold doesn't bounce back by next Friday, you can call me Al.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:15 - ID#390214)
Equity inflows in Sept. est. $21 bn and they went nowhere
WASHINGTON, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Estimated net new flows to U.S. stock mutual funds were $21.5 billion in September, up
from August inflows of $13.9 billion, a mutual fund industry trade group said Thursday.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:15 - ID#335190)
October 9, 1997
Study says Canada is investors' haven

OTTAWA ( CP ) - A government-funded study suggests Canada ranks first as a potential destination for new investment among seven industrialized
countries. At least for now.

"Not only is Canada the best country in the world in which to live, Canada is also the best country in which to invest," Trade Minister Sergio Marchi said Thursday, releasing the study. But experts say investors should hurry while the Canadian dollar is undervalued against the U.S. currency. Any significant rise in the value of the dollar would erode Canada's advantage.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:22 - ID#57232)
Another: Your thoughts are appreciated. I have noticed how US dollar-based currencies have risen over the last year, almost in lock-step with the drop in the price of gold. However, gold has actually risen in value in other stronger currencies, such as the Swiss Frank, as well as in others. It is clear that oil ( priced in US dollars ) , gold ( priced in US dollars, and the US $ are being manipulated in some complex fashion, either 1 ) to maintain the status quo of the western world ( constant oil prices ) , 2 ) to act as a backup for the EMU, 3 ) to initiate a new e-gold currency, or 4 ) for simple speculation.

It also makes sense that some oil-producing countries can demand payment in "hard" money, namely gold. It is clear, from the activities of the LBMA ( "1000 tons" gold/day traded daily ) that many well-placed individuals are acutely aware of the monetary value of gold, despite the illusions created by the "paper money" financiers/bankers.
Perhaps you could, in your inimitable style, allude to how the LBMA can push gold down ( and the US$ up ) without significant sales of physical gold from the central banks. I would guess that the manipulation has been going on for at least five years, but none of the G7 countries have acknowleged sufficient sales of gold. Is this all due to the leveraging effect of the derivatives they are using? If we had some idea how this was done, we might be better able to decide how to retain what assets we have, in order to rebuild after the pending collapse of nearly 100 years, as you put it, of "paper" money. I don't expect a personal answer.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:24 - ID#335190)
Spin Spin Spin @ What is fact?????????????
October 9, 1997
U.S. Business Council worried about weaker economy

WILLIAMSBURG, Va. ( Reuter ) - Leaders of the largest U.S. corporations generally are more worried that economic growth could slow than about a potential overheating, despite official data showing the economy has been growing strongly. A survey of members of the Business Council showed Thursday that nearly two-thirds of the top U.S. chief executives polled said economic weakness was a greater worry than overheating.

About three-quarters of the executives forecast a growth rate for the economy of between 2 percent and 2.75 percent through the middle of 1998, while two-thirds predicted a reading of 2 percent to 2.75 percent on the Consumer Price Index in the same period. Although recent comments from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan have prompted concerns in financial markets about the potential for interest rate rises, the majority of Business Council members see that prospect as unlikely.
Forty-six percent of the members predicted that interest rates would be steady by the middle of next year and 19 percent looked for lower rates. Just 35 percent saw higher rates.

Corporate leaders who discussed the survey results at a news conference said their more sanguine view of the inflation outlook stemmed from the fact that they do not see any ability to pass along price increases at the moment.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:28 - ID#2082)
had a feeling
That gold was gonna roll over like the dog, that we could scratch it's soft underside...I'm just disappointed it had to drag my shiny-white in to the dirt also. But, ALAS! I believe she is coming back...maybe. I dunno, let's ask Eldo about the various lines of support and resistence and moving through next Tuesday if the lines will meet the equator and we can all grab a burger and crash through some resistence and hold hands and chant mantras...oh hell...I'll go watch the ballgame instead ;-^ )

away...on the hunt for Mr. October

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:31 - ID#2082)
NoMercy, 6-pak, Donald

Can you guys scour the net for reasons on Plat. slide? Who showed up? Who didn't? Who will? Irvine-Boy? KGB?


(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:33 - ID#390214)
Brazil's samba
``Invariably the day of reckoning is in the future, and the more they procrastinate on correcting that imbalance, the larger the
problem becomes,'' said Eduardo Cortes, portfolio manager at J.P. Morgan Asset Management.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:36 - ID#390214)
Brazil accelerating devaluation
Players continued expecting a new decline in the reais/dollar mini-band in coming days. The current mini-band was set on
Monday at between 1.0970 and 1.1020 reais per greenback.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:37 - ID#401237)
It seems that when ever they list what is included in the money supply figures ( M1, M2 & M3 ) they now include mutual funds but leave out stocks and Gold.

Does anyone have more info on this. I have thought for a long time that there is a huge amount of cash in the market that is not counted in the money supply. They could print all of the dollars they want if it is going into the market - no one would notice. Only way to get rid of all of that printed money would be to let it evaporate in a major down market.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:42 - ID#261118)
@ Another's school
Ah'am I say; Ah'am varry impressed! ( I knew there ws some reason I stay here at kitco! ) Panda , thanks for the URL..

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:42 - ID#173274)
@the scene
EB -- Away to watch TV? Sounds like a most marvelous place for you! Perhaps we should rather ask YOU about the support areas! I'm sure we would at least get an 'away' somewhere out of it! Thanks for being so 'helpful' at this site!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:45 - ID#386245)
OK -- so I go to sleep for a few hours and what do you guys do!!??
Let's stop all this funny business up there!!!

Fortunately the OZ market is taking it in stride. XGO ( gold ) down a coupla %--but very low volume selling. The big campers are still keeping their weenies in the fire!! This tells me they don't believe the manipulation goin' on up there. Ain't no panic in OZ, gang. The shares I bought yesterday are still above what I paid for 'em--so I'm relaxin'. By the way--those put warrants on the banks sure are nice insurance. NAB ( Aussie's largest bank ) is tanking even faster than the PM's.

Now you guys get your act together up there and stop all this foolin' around!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:47 - ID#252312)
Eldorado: I enjoyed your comments regarding ANOTHER. Sometimes I wonder if all of those electronic ups and downs we see in the market are being manipulated without any connection to reality. Could a sufficiently well versed financial-type individual go one step beyond regular derivatives, and manipulate our money at will? Could someone use the central banks gold as "collateral" and create "gold" at will just as we know central banks create dollars? As I recall, with central banks the leverage is about ten-fold historically. What is it for gold, which may be traded secretly at the LBMA? To what limit can this reach ( unregulated because it is secret ) ? When will the "house of cards" crash, and the central banks ( or whoever it is ) have to sell gold? It seems to me either the selling of gold has just begun, or the official IMF gold reserves are a lie! What a mystery -- we either must unravel this if we wish to buy gold and make a profit -- or remain completely in the dark and risk financial ruin flying nearly blind!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:55 - ID#390214)
Indonesia (Japan worried)
"The weight of Indonesia with a population of 200 million
is much larger than Thailand so that the impact seems to
be much more grave than Thailand's case," said Mr
Takashi Kiuchi, executive research fellow at LTCB

"Also Indonesia has its own structural problems and since
the year before last there have been some insurgencies
and street riots.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:57 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:58 - ID#390214)
Commodities (CRB index)
Keep An Eye On The CRB Futures Index

The CRB futures index closed at 245.69 today, up about one-half of a point on strength in
grain and oilseed prices. Although today's point increase is nothing special, the level of the
close is above the recent double-top level of 245.30. This area of resistance was breached last
Friday on strength across a broad spectrum of CRB commodities. If commodity prices are
starting to move higher, even if they are not "core" commodities, then any sign of an uptick in
core inflation in the PPI and CPI could have an amplified effect on the debt markets. A missing
ingredient in this business expansion at this stage has been a runup in commodity prices.
Maybe this is starting. If it is, though, you can bet it will make a counter-move tomorrow. All I
have to do is mention that some commodity price is braking out to the upside and it
immediately heads south.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 20:59 - ID#396137)
@Caution Repeat
If you've bothered to read my past postings, I've been advising keeping
the faith for the long pull, but short term, the golds & silvers look
like they may correct. To where, you ask--let me refer you to the all
knowing guru that posted a day or two ago, ne other than Mr Cat- the HEP one, who predicted Dow 8300, and gold 310- this in itself was nervy,
but then he added by the 23rd of October, with his humble brags, saying take heed as he is rarely wrong. Well take it for what it's worth, the short term charts with MACD adn bollinger bands do not look promising for those that are long. Long term holders, like myself, should do nothing, but grit teeth.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:02 - ID#333131)
Bema news:
VANCOUVER - ( Dow Jones ) - Bema Gold Corp. and Arizona Star Resource Corp. Thursday said a prefeasibility study on the Cerro Casale gold-copper deposit in northern Chile recommends that the project owners proceed with a final feasibility study.
Bema Gold ( BGO ) and Arizona Star ( AZSRF ) , both mining companies, said the study, which was completed by Mineral Resource Development Inc., concluded that the Cerro Casale deposit is"both technically and economically viable,"and the project could be developed into a low-cost, large scale gold-copper mine, at an initial capital cost of $1.33 billion.
The companies said that, according to the study, Cerro Casale contains a mineable reserve of 19.5 million ounces of gold and 5 billion pounds of copper. They said 85% of this reserve is in the proven and probable category.
Exploration expenditures to date total $28.5 million.
The study recommends Cerro Casale be developed as a large scale open-pit gol

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:02 - ID#252312)
HighRise: Enjoyed your comments about the market and ABE's famous quote.What worries me is that the entire world equity market is built on faith only. The only reason why prices go up, is that people believe that the general trend is up. Despiste thos mystery, the market does generally tend to follow real corporate earnings, althought the faith part causes fluctuations on the pessimistic and optimistic sides of equilibrium. What really bothers me is the manipulation of public opinion appears to be on a larger scale than ever, due to the effective monopoly of the news media by a few large corporations. It wasn't always this way in the US. This means that the deception ( deviation from reality ) may be much greater than it was, say 40 years ago or more in the US. Consequently, when the market does fall, it is likely to be catastrophic. The large US private and federal debt doesn't help.

What does one conclude, when conservative, painstaking analysis of gold prices ( compared to the CPI, or commodity prices ) over the last hundred years reveals an equilibrium price for "real" gold of about 600 dollars per ounce? Gold is undervalued almost a factor of 2, and the bear market of gold may not yet be over -- how much farther from reality can we get?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:04 - ID#2082)
Sell On Rallies
I have said it before and you could have made some money.

I take the advice of the metals Sage-Boy...

It is not as difficult as playing minute-by-minute lines of support and resistence in-my-oh-so-humble-opinion.. watch the game

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:05 - ID#401237)
JTF: Exactly that is what nags at me. How can one invest in something that is so secret and appears to be manipulated.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:08 - ID#390214)
Gold - Swiss Mark
FWIW - Swiss Mark lower vs US $ to 145.42 ( yesterday it was 144 +
They say the Mark = gold

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:09 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:11 - ID#252312)
Donald: Are the mainland chinese leaders noticing a run on their banks?
The Chinese, as I know from personal experience, place a high value on real ( underline real ) monetary assets. They will be much less likely to be fooled than the average westerner.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:12 - ID#173274)
@the scene
JTF -- Manipulated 'screens' would make a good fiction novel, but otherwise totally unnecessary otherwise. Just a 'few' bucks placed 'appropriately' will easily cause the same effect. Crash and burn will happen when it happens. If, at that time, you don't have you butt covered, then perhaps you will not thereafter have the choice or chance to do so. To do so or not, at this time, is still your choice. It is very possible that at some point, if you do not already have it put away somewhere, that it just won't otherwise be available. And that doesn't have to be limited to the metals. I don't bet on next week/next month. But I WILL bet on eventualities, for THOSE must happen. They may get dragged out in time, but sometimes, time and events drag them in VERY quickly! Don't allow yourself to get run over! This is why I earlier said that even though I do not expect a one day gold drop to be over, I'll be 'watching' anyway! Things CAN get mightily accelerated at times!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:13 - ID#333131)
@another try at the whole Bema story
VANCOUVER - ( Dow Jones ) - Bema Gold Corp. and Arizona Star Resource Corp. Thursday said a prefeasibility study on the Cerro Casale gold-copper deposit in northern Chile recommends that the project owners proceed with a final feasibility study.
Bema Gold ( BGO ) and Arizona Star ( AZSRF ) , both mining companies, said the study, which was completed by Mineral Resource Development Inc., concluded that the Cerro Casale deposit is "both technically and economically viable," and the project could be developed into a low-cost, large scale gold-copper mine, at an initial capital cost of $1.33 billion.
The companies said that, according to the study, Cerro Casale contains a mineable reserve of 19.5 million ounces of gold and 5 billion pounds of copper. They said 85% of this reserve is in the proven and probable category.
Exploration expenditures to date total $28.5 million.
The study recommends Cerro Casale be developed as a large scale open-pit gold-copper mine processing 150,000 metric tons of ore a day, yielding average annual production of 916,000 ounces of gold and 282 million pounds of copper, over a mine life of 16 years.
The companies said the study recommends that ore be processed into a gold-copper concentrate using standard grinding and flotation techniques. Cleaner flotation tails will be further processed by cyanide leaching for additional gold recovery in the form of dore. The concentrate will be transported 224 kilometers by pipeline to the Chilean coast, and shipped to a smelter for final processing.
The companies said direct operating cash costs, including mining, processing, concentrate transportation, smelting and refining, total $79 per ounce of gold net of copper revenues. Total costs per ounce of gold produced including life of mine capital are estimated at $182 an ounce.
Using a gold price of $350 an ounce and copper price of 95 cents a pound, the net operating cash cost per ounce of gold is $93 with total cost including capital of $196 an ounce. The internal rate of return would be 11.4%.
Bema and Arizona Star said that, based on the strong results of this study, they will continue to advance the Cerro Casale project, which is owned 51% by Arizona Star and 49% by Bema. Bema owns 33% of Arizona Star.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:17 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:18 - ID#252312)
nomercy: Thankyou for reminding us to watch the CRY0. If it tanks, it usually takes the gold stocks with it ( short term ) .

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:21 - ID#386245)
G'day Donald. Got your message. Have e-mailed Dragon. Cheers, Nick

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:22 - ID#26793)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:23 - ID#252312)
Goodnight all! I for one believe that our gold bear market is over -- but that advice is worth whatever you paid for it!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:27 - ID#173274)
@the scene
JTF -- And one more thing; The ONLY gold that you can be sure of is that in you own holding, physically! For all we all know, the CBs haven't had any for years. Don't count on any numbers 'they' provide. It all could simply be a lot of hocus-pocus BS, and as long as REAL delivery does not have to actually be forthcoming, then who would know?. All the more reason for a 'day' such as we haven't seen before.... Add up lack of confidence in paper and lack of gold alternative. I think it means to bend over REAL hard and kiss you A_S insofar as ability to conduct business as usual!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:28 - ID#386245)
C'mon Ted--fess up!! You bought gold shares yesterday, didn't you??

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:35 - ID#252312)
@one last post
Eldorado: Appreciated your post. I have 1/3 of my money where it can't be touched, I believe, except by a direct nuclear attack. The problem is, as it is with many baby boomers in the US, we are acutely aware of how much money we need to retire -- because we cannot rely on our federal government. My job - handling a large lab - about the size of a 100million corporation - is very stressful and I hope to retire in a few years before the job wears me down -- get the picture? How to save alot of money in those few years. Long term plans are of more value when the pace is slower. Hopefully I'll get good enough at investing so that I can retire without a "fortune". Have one more kid to send to college first-20k/year if he is to get the quality education I got at 4k per year.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:37 - ID#251168)
@ anti-diluvian
Nick G'day, and that's what I said too although i reckon it was TED, I wonder what TED was building? Are you building an ARK or something up there mate?
I can't see before about 7 am, today. Perhaps there is a clue there.
In meantime another has given us food for thought.
Liked Eldo's comment earlier re another

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:39 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Reify -- The dude cat may wind up being totally correct. And if he were not constantly being so obnoxious, perhaps he could then present those views and rational himself. But, I'll take it day by day, for even the most 'imperious' seem to fail at the most inopportune times! Best regards!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:41 - ID#252312)
Eldorado- I should buy some more gold coins -- Wouldn't it be hilarious if all those soldiers at Fort Knox had nothing to protect! If that is true that would be the ultimate deception. That secret ( if it is so ) would be classified top secret at the highest level possible, and if it ever came out that the US had no gold, even the non-believers would panic!
Goodnight all for real this time -- always enjoyable on Kitco --

Gusto Oro
(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:45 - ID#377235)
Hey mates down under--gold was thoroughly shelled under our stateside care today. ( The best we could do is shake 30 points off the Dow. ) Never underestimate the power of the dark side. We deliver the yellow stuff back to you Aussies. Do your best to hold the line till we can regroup next week!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:48 - ID#386276)
OEXTrader has a bit of a rave on gold today

Nick@C HER MKA PRA look good here DEF and EMD interesting.
Gee I wish Lihir woud just drop another 20c.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 21:52 - ID#286199)
"The remarkable thing was that everyone accepted the entire process, seemingly as normal as physical laws of nature, despite the fact that it was really as ethereal as a rainbow. The money did not physically exist. Even "real" money was only specially made paper printed with black ink on the front and green on the back. What backed the money was not gold or something of intrinsic value, but rather the collective belief that money had value because it had to have such value. Thus it was that the monetary system of the United States and every other country in the world was entirely an exercise in psychology, a thing of the mind, and as a result, so was every other aspect of the American economy."

Excerpted from "Debt of Honor" by Tom Clancy

A must read for those interested in possible exogenous events related to financial chaos.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:01 - ID#251168)
lacrimae mundi
Speed, sounds like Tom Clancy said the same thing as that anon latin fella i posted this morning, something like, the world is deceived because it wants to be deceived.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:16 - ID#286199)
Aurator: Thinking is hard work. Thinking something through to the endis not an inherited talent like running fast, it is a learned skill, more like gymnastics. Everybody thinks, but it is rare to find one who thinks well. Unfortunately, thinking is not taught in school anymore. I frequent this board because many really good thoughts are posted here. Either that or Bart is really a clever computer program generating various personalities and messages a la Rod Serling's "Twilight Zone". Who really knows how many of us are "real"?

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:27 - ID#251168)
deus ex machina
Speed, Zigackly. I was going to advise TED that KITCO is really just a Turing demonstration. In point of fact, the only human at Kitco is TED. The rest of us are just clever bart-type programming

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:30 - ID#386245)
"Fed chairman Alan Greenspan's recent performance casts a shadow on his abilities"

"Alan Greenspan is a lousy equities analyst and just an average economist..."

Further down---Chile tax on mining...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:30 - ID#286199)
@twenty or so lines of code...
Aurator: Shhhhh, don't spoil it for him!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:32 - ID#263259)
Speed r.e. 22:16 post: I for one am not real, merely a probability wave on the surface of space-time, spending some time pondering whether the fictional price of Au will dip further tomorrow or rebound. But, as it too is merely a wave lapping on the shore of the aether it makes little difference against the turning tide which will soon fill our shore.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:34 - ID#31876)
ELDORADO -- Your comments tonight remind me of all those financial
scandals in the 1920's. The market was rising, so John Q didn't "know",
( spelled "think" ) . Then the crash. What had been hidden then leaped into the news. That was one thing that helped G-O-L-D!!!! Think about
all the help that's a'comin this time.

Bill Buckler
(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:34 - ID#257234)
I have updated the "Gold Bottoms" page and the
$A - $US Gold comparison page at The Privateer website.

The URLs are

The long and short of it ( if you would pardon the
expression ) is that this one absolutely reeks of
Central Bank manipulation. With capital flight
accelerating out of South East Asia, the escapees
face two choices - $US or Gold.

If they decide on Gold, they will also decide to
buy it with their US Dollars. And to get the U.S.
Dollars, they would have to sell their mountain of
U.S. Treasury Debt. That's why the U.S. Treasury
and the Fed don't want to see Gold going up.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:36 - ID#431263)
Have to agree with David Mallory. This is the bear's last gasp raid on gold! I believe the funds smelled a "golden opportunity" to pile on to the short side of gold when the Bundesbank et al raised short term rates this morning. This is simply good trading! And if they can re-establish the trend down all the better! But the supply situation in the white metals, including silver and gold will simply not permit them to do so. Add to this the currency problems in Asia and a Japanese banking system and stock market on the edge of a deflationary collapse and AG ( hey, that's the symbol for silver isn't it? ) spooking the paper boys with hawkish inflation speak so he can bail out the world with ever more eurodollars, petrodollars, latinodollars, philippinodollars etc. etc. etc. without causing hyperinflation at home and you'd have to be a fool to go short the precious yellow at such a precarious turning point in economic history! Let the funds have their fun for a couple of hours, days or weeks, in the end supply and demand will triumph and then it will be the Kitco crowd's turn to crow! I've been stalking this bull for too long now to give up just when the trend is beginning to turn! Go GREEN AND GOLD! Bash the BEARS this Sunday and let the gold times roll!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:52 - ID#286199)
signing off

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:52 - ID#263259)
neural net predictions
Phillips is long on both FDPMX and FSAGX

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:53 - ID#368168)

(Thu Oct 09 1997 22:59 - ID#222167)
What Greenspan has failed to do, Eugene Ludwig is now doing. What do bankers hate more than higher interest rates? Answer: Bank auditors. Ludwig has spoken about the reckless lending going now going on at the nation's commercial banks. 125% home-equity loans, buy stocks with the proceeds. Need another credit card, buy more stocks. Borrow from your retirement fund, buy stocks.

Perhaps more interesting for Ludwig would be an examination of what borrowers are using their loans for. Any student of credit history knows that any credit expansion immediately rears its ugly head in the form of price inflation. In the present case, there is only one area that is inflating in the US -- financial assets.

The obvious conclusion is that virtually all new loans are finding their way into purchases of stocks and bonds. What effect do you suppose Ludwig's nosing into the books of commercial bankers will have on new lending? Any reduction in lending will have the same effect as credit tightening. Any reduction in new lending will curtain new stock purchases.

Any drop-off in new stock purchases will send equities crashing. Playing the same old broken record -- buy gold and silver, sell stocks and bonds.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:01 - ID#335190)
Central Bank Canada @ Not a BRAKE - Only easing off accelerator (BS-BS-BS by Jerks))
October 9, 1997
Canada's Thiessen says policy tied to U.S. economy

TORONTO, Oct 9 ( Reuter ) - Bank of Canada Governor Gordon Thiessen said on Thursday that a slowdown in the U.S. economy would reduce the Bank of Canada's need to tighten monetary conditions. "If the American economy slows down a lot, then I think it's certainly true there's going to be less need for us to ease off on the accelerator than before," Thiessen said in a televised interview. The central banker also said the Bank of Canada would be free to dictate monetary policy if the Federal Reserve had to tighten to slow a robust U.S. economy. "American interest rates will always have an impact on Canada, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have the monetary conditions we need in this country. But we always must remember if the American economy is growing really fast, that does tend to spill over into Canada," said Thiessen.

He repeated comments he made earlier this week that the Bank of Canada's interest rate hike last week was not aimed at a major slowdown in the economy, but was an attempt to reduce excess stimulus in the face of strong domestic demand. "It doesn't need the same degree of monetary stimulus and so we're just easing off on the accelerator pedal. We are most certainly not hitting the brakes," said Thiessen. The central bank head also repeated his belief that the Canadian dollar was on an upward trend.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:06 - ID#2082)
Golden Cheesehead
I am diggin' your posts. You exhibit SOUND reasoning ( mostly ;- ) ) . I do not agree, however, with you take on gold though. "you have to be a FOOL to short gold". I don't understand this. It is Still a bear market regarding the fundamentals AND ( for all you 'AG' bashers-and I agree with Aurator that he is an average economist ) as Bill B. says, there could be CB manipulation and a whole Slew of other reasons...I don't know. Suffice to say, gold is Dead for the near term. And Gold is in trouble for the intermediate. The other White metals will Not move in harmony with Gold. It is different right now. And don't ask me to define have a feeling what I am talking about. Gold does Not seem to be the 'store for wealth' that it once was. The stigma/fact will return, but it will not return tomorrow or the next day. Maybe after this currency/'false paper' situation plays out...however it may be. I believe that gold WILL reign supreme, but Not now.

I am exhausted now and I must return to my loving woman and baseball on the couch...she Likes baseball...isn't life great!

oh...and I still love you Eldo...I just don't know what comes over me sometimes ;- ) get some lovin'

aurator and Nick's...I want to read some gooood stuff later...

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:08 - ID#335190)
Car Dealers @ Japan
October 9, 1997
U.S. disappointed in outcome of Japan car talks

SAN FRANCISCO ( Reuter ) - U.S. trade negotiators Thursday expressed strong disappointment that Japan did not offer to do more to open up its car and parts markets to more foreign competition during two-days of talks.
Assistant U.S. Trade Representative Wendy Cutler said that discussions with Japanese trade officials "give us little cause for optimism" that Tokyo will follow through on promises to promote domestic demand, deregulate to open up its markets and avoid relying on exports to boost its sluggish economy.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:15 - ID#30116)
Bill Buckler -- If you are correct about manipulation ( I tend to agree with you! ) , then this is a truly disgusting market to trade ( PM wise ) . It is driving me to the conclusion that the 'safest' way to play is by buying the physical, 'in your hand' stuff. What was it that Marie Antonette said? "Let them eat paper!" :- )

At least if one 'loses' on the 'price', you still have something in your hand as opposed to paper! There is one other 'benefit' also, the bastards get what they want, no interest in the 'paper' gold, just the the 'stuff'. To which, I'm sure they can supply me with ad nauseam at low prices. :- )

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:18 - ID#386245)
G'day Nick@Aussi. Some action in OZ today, huh. Gold down 6 bucks and last time I looked our biggest gold miner ( NDY ) was UP 4. How do you figure that?? Don't you just love those bank put warrants!! I'm actually makin' money on a day that by all rights should be a disaster!! Had a look at HER,MKA & PRA--lack of volume bothers me. Will study in more detail later. I was in 'n outta DEF recently--talk about volatile--better wear your whiplash protection around yer neck, mate. I was into LIHIR a few weeks ago at 1.81. Have sold em since--am lookin' to get back in as they are going to be a BIG money spinner.

As it is very late in N.America--I wish to repost the best picture of the month!! This is for those manipulators up there!!! Your day will come!!

Bart--please don't escort me to the parkin' lot mate. They deserve it!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:19 - ID#30116)
Good night all. I can't wait to see tomorrows PPI report, not! I can hear the cooks in the kitchen now....

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:19 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Up $75K on first leg and still 100% Long

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:24 - ID#335190)
Italy @ New Election, after 17 months
October 9, 1997
Italy's Prodi government falls under communist weight

ROME ( AP ) - A small communist party brought down Italy's 55th post-war government Thursday. Premier Romano Prodi resigned after his Marxist allies, the Communist Refoundation party, refused to tolerate welfare cuts the government says are vital for Italy's entry into the common European currency. President Oscar Luigi Scalfaro asked Prodi to stay on as caretaker while he consults with political leaders on forming a new government. Prodi's deputy premier, Walter Veltroni, said he believed new national elections would be necessary - Italy's third in six years.

The fall of Prodi's 17-month-old government ends Italy's first leftist-dominated government since the Second World War.

Refoundation had sought a promise that pensions not be touched and
wanted concessions on health care, job creation and a shorter work week.
Prodi said the government was ready to move toward a 35-hour work
week, from 40 hours. He made other small concessions, promising to put
off privatization of the state electric company and to cut health care costs. But it wasn't enough.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:40 - ID#257148)
why do they call it "the bird"?
Nick Aw gee, and i thought you were saving that for me.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:44 - ID#431263)
Amen, Brother Puetz! And pass me another credit card application will ya! I now own 15 of those little plastic printing presses. If I wanted to ( and if I was stupid enough ) I would print myself an instant money supply of $150,000.00 digitaldollars so I could go out and bid up the price of my hottest small-cap mutual fund! Heilige Scheiss! I could beat the six month 5.9% teaser rate in a week or two, pay off the balances and qualify for fifteen more of those convenient little portable printing presses. And repeat the whole process all over again! Jeez! Borrow my way to wealth! Multiply me by 50,000,000 other 'boomers' and you can see why this booming stock market is about to get hit with the most devastating margin call the universe has ever seen! No wonder AG is sheissing all over this party! EB--this is why I said you'd have to be a fool to short gold now. Cause when the sheiss hits the fan, and the extent of the margin call is made public, the gold window will be closed like the door on Noah's Ark and no one will have enough time ( or money ) to get on board! Can you spell P-A-N-I-C!!!!!!!!

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:57 - ID#57232)
Bill Buckler: Enjoyed your comments about CB's manipulating gold. I have read most of ANOTHER's posts and they fascinate me. How do you think the manipulation is being done? Are the CB's "selling" gold and "buying" dollars? Is it all done with derivatives, or by some new method of amplifying their gold assets, just like our US Federal banks multiply their assets to create dollars in the US market? The correlation between the rise in the US$ and the drop in gold over the last year is more than coincidence! Gold prices are rising in terms of the Swiss frank.

(Thu Oct 09 1997 23:59 - ID#386276)
Seems to me that a cute kid like the one in the photo, would just have to have a "WICKED" horrorscope.

I just went and reviewed the 30 Dow Inds, in weekly & monthly.
Seems to me that near 1/3 of the Co's have put in monthly tops and are now in the process of rolling over.
Have a look for yourseves esp. LBG & Hepcat.
It's now just a matter of patience.