Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:01 - ID#227238)
LGB: " Example, we now have the highest rate of personal Homeownership in our Nation's history."

Would it not be equally correct to say that American Banks have the highest rate of homeownership in our history? ..... The average net worth in the US is something on the order of $30K!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:01 - ID#410226)
what's up gold grumps
Overseas market taking a hit again and what does gold do. Down, down,
down. I told you that gold is the most worthless commodity. Almost every ounce ever mined is still around! : )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:03 - ID#310407)
HK Gold
Sunday October 26 9:08 PM EST

HK gold opens firmer after sharply New York fall

HONG KONG, Oct 27 ( Reuters ) - Hong Kong gold opened firmer in early Monday trading after its sharp
declines in New York on Friday, but dealers said they expected the metal to continue softening later.

Bullion opened at US$309.30/80 an ounce against New York's US$308.75/309.25 close on Friday.

``Gold was pushed down to new 12-year lows by news of the Swiss proposal to sell 1,400 tonnes of gold,'' said a
dealer at a local investment house. ``A softer tone is seen in the absence of positive factors and I suppose gold will
come off later.''

Local gold opened HK$8 lower at HK$2,858 a tael.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:04 - ID#319269)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:06 - ID#257148)
tomato ketchup
Ron, now i have a bad back too, will it help if i lie in a sack o'tomatoes? Early and main crops are planted now, but do i have to lie in 'em? i will try anything..

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:07 - ID#310407)
@Story bodes poorly for XAU
Sunday October 26 7:27 PM EST

Australia gold stocks slump after Swiss-led rout

SYDNEY, Oct 27 ( Reuters ) - Australian gold stocks slumped more than nine percent in frantic early trade on
Monday after the gold price fell five percent on Friday night to 12-year lows on news the Swiss central bank may
sell 1,400 tonnes of gold.

The Australian Gold index fell 117.7 points or 9.45 percent to 1,131.7 by 10.35 a.m. ( 2335 GMT ) .

Stocks with largely unhedged production were hardest hit.

Plutonic Resources, which is relatively lightly hedged, fell 36 cents or 11.4 percent to A$2.81, while the fully
hedged Normandy Mining Ltd ( NDY.AX ) fell 5.7 percent or 10 cents to A$1.64.

``People look for the production being hedged as a way for these producers to preserve near-term earnings and
the place to be is Normandy and Gwalia Consolidated ( GWC.AX ) ,'' said ABN AMRO Hoare Govett Head of
Mining Research David Walker. He said these two companies had large volumes of production hedged at high
values for the next two to three years.

Gwalia Consolidated's shares were down five cents or 5.2 percent at 90 cents.

``It's the smaller hedging positions that are going to get hit. Plutonic is very lightly hedged,'' Walker said.
Newcrest's ( NCM.AX ) shares were down 32 cents or 14 percent A$2.23.

Plutonic is about 33 percent owned by Malaysia Mining Corp ( MMCB.KL ) .

The gold price slumped US$16.10 an ounce to US$309.60 on New York's Comex market on Friday, but had
bounced to US$310.75 in early Asian trade.

On Friday, officials of the Swiss finance ministry and the Swiss National Bank said they approved of a plan to sell
up to 1,400 tonnes of Swiss gold reserves.

Since March this year, the Swiss have debated a broad plan to overhaul their constitution to reduce the amount of
gold needed to back the Swiss franc.

Analysts said the Australian industry appeared set for a major shake-up if the gold price stabilised at these lower
levels, with large chunks of production deemed uneconomic, forcing the rationalisation and merger of many
mid-ranked companies.

``It's only a handfull of large-low cost operations like Lihir ( LHG.AX ) , Great Central's ( GCM.AX ) Bronzewing
and the Superpit ( NDY.AX ) ( HM - news ) that'll survive these low prices,'' Walker said.

Other new projects could be put on hold, including Newcrest's Cadia Hill mine and Normandy's Wandoo project.

``Some of the big, low grade projects like Cadia and Wandoo are going to be under a fair amount of pressure,''
Walker said, adding that these low prices could force a 20 to 30 percent fall in Australia's annual gold output.

Australia's major commodities forecaster, the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics
( ABARE ) forecast in September that Australia's gold output would rise 9.4 percent to 344.9 tonnes in the year to
June 30, 1998.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:09 - ID#215208)
Still trying to get home. Weather delays. For those that are interested, based on the current Kitco spot prices, all metals have now broken thru the bottom of the channels I have been posting. But .... it is still a long time until the afternoon closing of the London exchange ( which were the prices used to define the channels ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:09 - ID#401460)
On The Other Hand
You Guys know that most of the Newspapers and media sources of the World have e-mail and web sites.
I have watched Apple Computer for the last 8 months do battle with all of the mis-information put out by the media ( I wonder where that info came from-you get one guess ) . They have accomplished it by using their chat line as a communication link with one another - there are literally millions of Mac OSs in use in the world, more than Windows 95. They would Inform each Mac lover of who to contact and respond to after an inaccurate press release. I want to tell you, you would not believe the impact of thousands of e-mail, from all over the world, in response to one article, would have. They always advised to be positive " don't spam, educate". After all this has been said the media eased off them once they came to an agreement with Bill Gates.

People on this line have the time to communicate with one another and probably could drop a line once in a while to the media. All we have to do is create predrafted POSITIVE & INFORMATIVE statements informing the media of our concerns.

By the way they do not like anonymous information leads.

Of course one must realize that they own the media, but you never know you might find a real investigative reporter out there who doesn't care about his job or his life.

You will need to reach the mass of investors who are really going to be P!SSED OFF when this is over. You will need to use the Internet and other "uncontroled" information links to reach them. Does Schwab have a chat line?

The Wichita Lineman
(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:10 - ID#374200)
Questionman, I hate to break this to you, but you are barking up the wrong tree if you want any action out of this group. The posters are mostly goldbugs, and in the case of LGB, a guy who spends lots of time on the net, mostly to argue with people cause thats how he gets his kicks. Thats fine, but goldbugs are not the people of action, they are bugs who prefer to cling to gold like mama's nipple, they have numerous fears and hang ups, they have 'pasts', they consider other people 'so dumb', while they are extremely lazy and are usually zelots, full of themselves, so to speak. Every time, I, like you think that this site is brimming with talent, I always catch myself with the simple question: true knowledge is only evident through silence and modesty. Every time these 'intellectuals' open their web-mouths, they reveal their exact store of knowledge, or lack of it. I think those that listen and read are the ones who should be followed, not the frequent posters. But then, that would make this a boring website, so I hope they remain full of themselves and keep me entertained, and I will join the fun too. But as for asking these guys to engage in some sort of exercise..... Now thats funny !

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:12 - ID#231208)
(4 highrise)
and if only one of them shall understand the word
and give the word to the people
then the people will know the word


(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:13 - ID#30116)
Hang Seng index site...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:15 - ID#227238)
LGB: Didn't the Swiss announcement come out after the Pacific markets closed for the week? ..... If so, the Aus action may be catch up.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:18 - ID#231208)
we all know what happens if one person closes their bank-account, surrenders their credit card and pays everything in gold
what about 10 people
what about 100 people
what about 1000 people
what about 10000 people
what about 100000 people
what about it ?

LGB (Posting from Daughter's Computer)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:19 - ID#319367)

Everyone: I apologize for my mean-spirited, vindictive behavior. As you well know, it more often than not that gets the better of me. I just catch hell from all sides, my boss, my wife and my seven daughters!

My boss had the nerve to question my engineering skills! I graduated in the top 100% of my class of 3!!!! The field of Sanitary Engineering is very rigorous and requires a tolerance for foul smelling cargo! I was awarded a distinguished trophy for coining the term "Wom Bak". It sure saves alot of time when directing the garbage truck driver to continue to back up his engineering equipment!

I am posting now from my daughter's room ( had to "Bitch Slap" her to get use of her computer ) .

I occasionally have problems at my computer and if my wife is in a bad move, I've decided to retreat here to post from the daughter's room.

We have 4 computers in all hooked up to the internet so expect me to post from any one of these in the future.

I promise to continue posting here although the majority of you absolutely hate my guts.

LGB, the "Bitch Slapper"

The Wichita Lineman
(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:20 - ID#374200)
Questionman, I hate to break this to you, but you are barking up the wrong tree if you want any action out of this group. The posters are mostly goldbugs, and in the case of LGB, a guy who spends lots of time on the net, mostly to argue with people cause thats how he gets his kicks. Thats fine, but goldbugs are not the people of action, they have numerous fears and hang ups, they have 'pasts', they consider other people 'so dumb', while they are extremely lazy and are usually zelots, full of themselves, so to speak. Every time, I, like you think that this site is brimming with talent, I always catch myself with the simple question: true knowledge is only evident through silence and modesty. Every time these 'intellectuals' open their web-mouths, they reveal their exact store of knowledge, or lack of it. The one who usually comes to mind is GS Cole who is an 'expert' and LGB who is the 'counter the experts expert'. I think those that listen and read are the ones who should be followed, not the frequent posters who like to see themselves published. But then, that would make this a boring website, so I hope they remain full of 'knowledge' and keep me entertained, and I will join the fun too. But as for asking these guys to engage in some sort of exercise..... Now thats funny !

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:21 - ID#319269)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:22 - ID#259160)
Has anyone talked to Glen, how did he do on Friday? If your out there Glen would like to hear what you expect for Monday???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:22 - ID#38970)
Hong Kong down 6.49%. Here we go again!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:23 - ID#194311)
Blood On the Street
A former derivatives trader publishes a scandalous book of high finance scams of "reputable " operations like First Boston, Morgan Stanely, etc...the public will be disgusted with the whole greed and gluttony of Wall Street and the party will be well and truly over. It's got everything sexism, racism, fraud, nauseating wealth....hits the shelves November 3. The times has a review on their web site.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:23 - ID#231208)
@the Wichita Lineman
OK, let me start again
what if one person did it for fun, for a day
what if 100000 persons did it for fun for a day
would;nt that be fun ? - almost as good as mental masturbation.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:24 - ID#319269)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:28 - ID#288352)
Your short and long versions appear to use different clocks.
Or is it the clock-change ?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:30 - ID#194311)
Blood On the Street
A former derivatives trader publishes an inside account of derivatives trading. The book exposes reputable names like First Boston, Morgan Stanely well and truly through their blatant sexism, racism and disgusting high finance scams. Hits the book shelves November 3, The Times has it on review on their web site. The public will be apalled by this and the greed and gluttony that Wall Street harbours in its ruthless quest for MONEY, party's over...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:30 - ID#227238)
Witchita What?: "I think those that listen and read are the ones who should be followed, not the frequent posters. But then, that would make this a boring website, ......."

Duh??? ..... Having known a few, it sounds like lineman mentality to me.
Do you wear your climbing spikes on the inside or outside of your foot? One is for poles the other is for barrels.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:31 - ID#270104)
On Friday, S&P Dec futures ( SP7Z ) closed at 944. They are now trading on Globex at 933.05, down 10.95. Monday should be interesting.

Does anyone have a site for Asian gold quotes? ABN now wants a password.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:32 - ID#231208)
The Wichita Lineman may be right.
U may be a bunch of frustrated goden couch potatoes - with zero cojones
or convictions. probably did it with your sister, when you were little.
( most people do ) . Goodnight, and sweet dreams in your little safe bed
with your little safe minds.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:33 - ID#257148)
then there's charts
RON, LGB , and NZ isn't even on the chart, i do feel like a figment of someone'es imagination come to think of it..

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:36 - ID#227238)
Questionman: Congrats. You went from harmless question to irritating public nuisance in the space of an hour or two. All without apparent effort.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:36 - ID#231208)
substitute and re-read. sorry

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:38 - ID#408152)
in sack-o-tomatoes
LGB: Showed it to my internet-hating wife. Haven't heard her laugh so hard in a long time.

Yellow Jacket: You're on to something, there! I'm going long palladium tomorrow!

Aurator: Never tried laying down in 'em, but if the UFO's heated 'em up enough, they might provide some relief. But get out and get out quick if you see any aliens approaching you with a big FORK!

Panda: Whaddya think about shorting the Hang Seng index? Perhaps not now, but if it rebounds a bit? Talked to my trade desk tonight, and they said that'd be another way to short the HK$.

Wichita Lineman: Hope you're not angry with the bit of levity I brought to Kitco, tonight. My dad was a Hutchinson Switchman, y'know.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:40 - ID#22882)
If you like silver you'll love Prime Resources Group

Check this artical>
If this link fails,
You might look over the Northern Miner at:
Prime Resources Group has a web site at: ( from my memory )
If this fails I will repost.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:41 - ID#231208)
Earl: elapsed time 1:26:34
i am good at it because i stand on the shoulder of giants akt this site

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:41 - ID#432451)
Recommended Aussie stocks
Been a long time since my last post. Enjoy reading others. ( Almost all )
Looks as if most are in bed

In my Portfolio on My Yahoo, Homestake had a news star by it. It stated that Aussie gold was down 11% Monday. David Walker, an analyst said the highly hedged companies would survive while lightly hedged would probably fold. Stated Normandy and Gwalia are highly hedged. Says only Lihir, Bronzewing and Superpit will survive along with Norm and Gwal. Are ;you Aussies in those?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:47 - ID#257259)
bandwidth is forever
Question man, just what this site needs, another lunatic with a messianic complex who uses the Caps lock.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:48 - ID#22882)
If you like silver you'll love Prime Resources Group

Check this artical.>

If this link fails,

You might look over the Northern Miner at

Prime Resources Group has a web site at ( from my memory )

If this fails I will repost.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:53 - ID#231208)
4 answerman
fyi - i already apologized for the caps ( twice )
it was suggested that people really do not read/comprehend messages
in smallcaps that run contrary to their established paradigms about
gold, values and principles.
i apologize humbly to you for using valuable bandwiidth that you
could have used for higher purposes than the value of gold

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:55 - ID#18970)
I will start to become an optimist again if we elect a Democratic House in 1998. I think it unlikely and we will have to wait until at least 2002 to get relief.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 00:59 - ID#22882)
If you like silver you'll love Prime Resources Group
Sorry no luck, but Primes web site works.

Check this.>

If this link fails,

You might look over the Northern Miner at

Prime Resources Group has a web site at

Sorry but Prime rates a close look.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:00 - ID#18970)
I will become a lot bigger optimist about the US if we elect a Democratic House in 1998. Its a long shot but we can all hope. Hope is what this country is about and lets hope the Democrats kick Newt out on his derrier in 1998. We probably will have to wait until 2002 when will really get positive change by electing a liberal oriented majority to both the House and Senate.

The Wichita Lineman
(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:04 - ID#374200)
Earl, the handle is from a song, but youu are too busy being clever to listen to music. My point to questionman, before you and him turrned this into a row with such flagrant ease was and is simple: This is a site for FUN debate, trying to 'rally the troops', you and I being part of them, is crazy and we both know it, so lets drop it, here and now, no come backs or 'burnings', they just make it difficult to navigate through this 'sea of knowledge'.

PS Earl, I take it you followed GS Cole to no avail.... Ha Ha,

see you on the telephone pole......wearing a barrel, listening to the advice you hear at this site.

LGB is right on one point....there is a lack of 'successful' investors and market analysts here.

Lets just call it like it is, even Kitco has the guts to do it.... misery loves company, hence ' Group Therapy' is a nice fit.

By the way Earl, I never pay attention to you anyway, your boring, very boring.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:10 - ID#38970)
Can anyone recommend a real time site for Hang Seng. Yahoo international markets quotes has hung up on me.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:13 - ID#408152)
in sack-o-tomatoes
WW: I'm gonna getcha for making me laugh while I've got a bad back!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:16 - ID#255190)

JTF & Highrise - Is it possible that the speed of a financial ( vs economic ) meltdown would be so quick because of modern telecom and computer technology that capital flow would simply cease or get so tied up in knots that people couldn't use it? International division of labor and international trade would be hamstrung by such a tangle. To my thinking that would bring ALL trade to a stand still. Imports/Exports would be hit worst of all. Just would stop. There are a lot of factors. But considering the derivative market, debt structure and currency turmoil, this may not be an impossible situation.

All - It seems that whole orld is trying to get at Kitco this night. I've been timed out four or five times. And its late!

Good Night. Remember to fluff your matresses.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:17 - ID#194225)
@and the water is pourin' down
Let's recap our situation. After a long period of boredom in the precious metals market, we finally got the excitement we were all hoping for. Pretty amazing, since NOTHING HAPPENED. But what did happen ( a panel made a recommendation, which was rejected, but as a result gold was spooked down ) tends to confirm the CONSPIRACY buzz, but not as one might expect. Yes, there is an anti-gold conspiracy, but it is not ( IMHO ) being executed by men in suits taking specific actions in a regular and planned fashion.. Rather, it is a MINDSET that pervades the Tower-of-Babel, New World Order crowd. In that mindset, there is no room for absolutes, and no room for the absolute value of gold. Everything is relative, everything is under control. ( See Brave New World, perhaps 1984 ) . This is a world in which the randomness has been exorcised, in which the markets are kept steady. What happened Friday was not a carefully planned attempt to drop the market price of gold, but rather a skirmish won by a world view, the world view that says we can control our destiny and implement the new world order, in which there is no place for gold, the barbaric relic.

Those of us who continue to bet on gold are, perhaps, betting against the Pax Clintonia, where there is no room for us and our yellow stuff.

Nevertheless, this chess game is not over. Each side has a king, and both kings are still on the board. As in chess, sometimes what appears to be a strong position can be suddenly dismantled.

What is clear is that the downside to gold may be way way down. And unless there is a turning, perhaps that "exogenous event", everything looks like Bre-X. On the other hand, there is no reason gold could not turn around completely in the next few months.

There are some puzzles. It appears to me that gold stocks are at the level they reached some weeks ago when bullion was in the high teens. Why are stocks doing relatively better? With the high cost of production, one would expect that Friday's bullion action would have caused an evern greater slide in mining stocks. If my mine produces at $312/oz, I am suddenly running a money-losing operation ( barring hedging ) . I have gone from a slim but livable profit ( and a resultant share value, presumably ) to an operating loss with no guarantee of turnaround, ever.

Is this a good time to stock up on kruggerands?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:19 - ID#316409)
Kuston re your 00:19 as "LGB" and your earlier posts as "Horses Ass" you ain't foolin anyone boy....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:19 - ID#227238)
WW: My optimism will exceed your's, by leagues; if the Hon. Richard Gephart joins with the Hon. Newt Gingrich in a bipartisan effort to encourage all Hon. members of the United States House of Representives to join them in a bipartisan demonstration of the latest techniques in suicide.

A grateful nation would lift it's eyes to the heavens, beseeching Almighty God to extend his benificence to members of the United States Senate as well.

Multitudes would rejoice and give thanks. Indeed, Thanksgiving would take on new meaning. ...... Unfortunately, my wait will be much longer than your's. Sigh.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:19 - ID#364147)
@ damn it
Nikkei down 2.48% and Hang Seng down 4.95%....Dec. gold down .60 @ 308...
....Jose Mesa for Marlins MVP....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:24 - ID#364147)
@ Earl
Hi Earl.....would have got back @ ya but thought you were out of town for two weeks ( stupid grin thing ) .....what the hell am I doin up ( 1:24 am ) ??? good night all...go GoLd

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:25 - ID#401460)
Please Understand The Politics of GOLD
WW ( @NE ) ID#18970: It has nothing to do with either party! If you have reading all of the post you will see that controled by those who use which ever party benefits them. You are also blind if you donot see the the manipulation of the markets by this Administration. Wake up.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:28 - ID#194225)
My screen shows Sunday's posts first, then if you follow them down far enough, this morning's posts.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:32 - ID#227238)
Witchita Whatever: It's good to collect a few friends as we go through life. Some days are just better than others. ...... In the meantime, continue to follow those who choose to say nothing. Fonts of wisdom, all. It's a fine strategy. ..... and no one will ever know the difference.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:42 - ID#227238)
Ted: No problem. Some plans work. Others do not. Unpleasantness ( not here ) remains as a constant. ...... Late last nite, a teeny tiny silicon soaked brain became deranged and manufacturer must now be consulted tomorrow. ...... Large elements of our brave new high tech world, leave a lot to be desired. Heresy I know but true nonetheless.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:43 - ID#433171)
Gold has stood the test of time. While governments have came and gone through out history gold is still with us today. Gold will always be here as long as coruption exits in the world we live. That does'nt seem like it's changing any time soon. With that in mind gold has my vote at these bargain base levels. From here every time gold drops I keep nibbling. Sooner or later the loaded spring will pop. Opportunity is knocking but very few are listening. Ditto when the stock market was shooting somebody buy me and nobody listened, now their listening at the top. The money is made before the crowd jumps in. It's nice to have company, but the real world of investing does'nt work that way. Guts and money do.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:45 - ID#257148)
in just 16 minutes the world will return to normal

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:47 - ID#401460)
Asia in smoky haze
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia ( AP ) - Ships without navigational aids were warned Saturday not to
sail in the central and southern sectors of the Strait of Malacca because of a smoky haze that has enveloped much of Asia.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:51 - ID#252127)
The Lunatics Rule

The entire US political system, from the Administration to both houses are the loony driven cohorts of the world monetary powers. Few here seem to care. Puetz, it seems that Lunar powers are working with them? Maybe there is something about this Moon stuff.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 01:56 - ID#293184)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:03 - ID#257148)
all is right with the world
This is the best of all possible worlds Dr Pangloss

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:06 - ID#240142)
@so what's new?
Monday October 27 12:25 AM EST

Reuters Business News Highlights

SINGAPORE - Hong Kong share prices tumbled sharply on Monday on overseas weakness and currency jitters,
shattering hopes of a quick recovery in other Asian stock markets.

Major regional markets Japan and Australia were also hit, but Southeast Asian bourses were little changed.

- - - -

TOKYO - Tokyo stocks hovered in negative territory in late Monday morning trade, weighed down by losses in
high-technology issues sparked by a hefty fall in New York on Friday, brokers said.

They said that after the recent weakness in Asian stocks and the fall on Wall Street, the market was waiting to see how
Hong Kong opens.

- - - -

SYDNEY - The Australian stock market opened sharply weaker on Monday following Friday's 1.7 percent tumble on
Wall Street on concerns over Asia's financial crisis and after gold prices dropped five percent.

The All Ordinaries index plunged 59.2 points to 2,502.1 in turnover of A$167 million ( US$114 million ) .

- - - -

SYDNEY - Australian gold stock prices slumped about 11 percent on Monday as traders, panicked by the spectre of a
plunge in the gold price through US$300 an ounce, carved A$1.45 billion ( US$993 million ) from the sector's value.

``The market's selling everything across the board,'' said one senior gold analyst.

- - - -

SYDNEY - A five cent collapse in the Australian dollar has brought the decade trough into sight and made analysts
consider the unthinkable: a return to the all-time low around 57 U.S. cents set in the ``banana republic'' days of 1986.

While most say the currency's fall is overdone on a fundamental or comparative price basis, they warn the mood is grim
enough to become a full blown financial emergency.

- - - -

NEW YORK - U.S. investors are likely to begin the week playing it safe, favouring Treasury bonds over stocks, as they
await developments in Southeast Asia's currency crisis, new U.S. economic data and testimony by Federal Reserve
Chairman Alan Greenspan, analysts said.

Analysts said investors will probably continue a trend started last week, avoiding high-yield, high-risk markets and taking
refuge in Treasuries.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:09 - ID#433171)
Very soon you will be wrong. If not then congratulations in advance. Gold has a strong threshold at $250. It may never get there , but if and when it does I'm backing up a fleet of trucks to buy. What makes you think gold will break below that. You already mentioned theres alot of gold around but if demand ever picked up especially when the public has'nt invested in the stuff in years there would be alot of buyers coming into the market. I believe this is how markets work. If everyone has already bought who is left to buy. What makes gold any different with coruption always present in markets and government. Gold's hedge will never change as long as that exists.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:14 - ID#240142)
@Nick & mates down under
Hope you all ducked and scooped those profits ( from a few weeks ago ) off the tables before the house moved in to stop the game today...

I've been checking out the oil sector...hedging a bit against the gold & silver.

Digging around in the other PM sites I came across these traders...interesting ( and profitable )

I believe the O & G cousins in Toronto have been beating the spread lately, too. How about down under today?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:14 - ID#403267)
@Earl, mon ams
Earl, as to that 5 Trillion, we have, perhaps, Bill Gates, a few more Roths and the Illuminati? ( grinthingy ) Also, I have 600+ channels on satellite, 1/3 of which cost extra, and I wonder WHY$?! Heck, if I watch it 2 hours a week I'm lucky, but anything to amuse the wife while I am on the NET ( Big grin thingy! )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:29 - ID#319367)
Whoops-here comes the daughter-will switch back to other computer.

Roebear: Are you related to Roegain??

I heard he was your hairy brother.

For the record - At a minimum, gold will rise to $3,000. A more likely scenario is that the world's financial system will break down completely. The basis of that system is the US dollar. In that case, gold will rise as high as $10,000 to $40,000 an once. At this point, all credit - paper will be backed by gold.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:29 - ID#403267)
Bravo, nothing has changed indeed. Remember the media hoopla when 1984 came without Orwell's predictions? They just didn't mention it was more like "Brave New World ( Order ) ", just give'em some more soma! Undoubtably on orders of their "1984" superiors:- ) ) Trouble is, as long as we are the only ones to see it, doesn't matter much AFA POG is concerned. All you Zombies, eh?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:36 - ID#403267)
EBN shows silver up $5.08 but down -1,637%. Monty Python is in charge, the same fellow in charge of the Swiss Gold Sale ( ?!? ) news??

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:41 - ID#403267)
LGB, why is it that you see your daughter and immediately think of hair? Are you up for some trouble tonight? Behave!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:42 - ID#227238)
Roebear: Not to mention fattened wallets, in the pockets of principal contributors to RNC/DNC. In the meantime we have a couple of generations that cannot make change at the burger emporium.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:47 - ID#386276)
Was thinking of pyramiding some of my put option down into lower strikes but there has been a major repricing at these lower levels.
Seems to me that the market makers are start to price risk in now.
The way out of the money puts have jumped in price so much that they no longer show good risk/reward ratios. Therefore I hold.
BHP which has been severly slamdunked is showing the same bias but towards the long side. Its calls are now severly overpriced even though the mother share is still falling.
Funnily enough some of our gold shares are showing the same form.
I currently hold calls in LHG and NDY. The share prices of these shares have fallen hard, but the price of their calls have not fallen appreciably.
LHG has fallen since I purchased these calls, and yet people are still buying them with gusto and paying a higher price than I did.
These moves sound a bit contrary, but I think tend to show a bias towards future trends.
There is currently a rumour in our market that BHP is a possible takeover target. The intention would be to aquire and strip this company of its assets. A consensus value of approx $30 has been placed on BHP's assets if broken up. At the current price of under $14, this play could have serious upside if leveraged correctly. Of course this is only a rumour but then there was a rumour on Kitco that gold would get thrashed towards the end of last week.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 02:56 - ID#240142)
@predictions...but not mine
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Hag 2:8 The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

1984 came and went...sad thing IMHO is that 1984 happened in a way that deceived just about everybody. Hard to see the forest for the trees.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:02 - ID#403267)
Give the kids a break Earl, they could use calculators during math class, its part of the New Paradigm, no one need be burdened by the ability to count. Makes it that much more convenient to control the Zombies. BTW I was in a Supermarket late at night with the wife, trying to do some off hours shopping ( no crowds ) . Here in one of the quietest towns in US three punks came by and made the wolf whistle etc. at my wife. Well this I can understand as she is a nice looking gal, but still they were very rude. They decided to follow this up with some similar comments about moi! I suppose my reaction was somewhat a combination of chivalry ( yeah, I must be ancient ) and homophobia ( a dinosaur ) but the three punks exited faster than they came in! This is not an isolated incident, and perhaps I see such things with older eyes, a hick provincial attitude, etc., but it was just more evidence to me that the world is going to crap.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:05 - ID#240142)
I read at Kaplan's something very interesting yesterday...for the first time ( I think I am correct, but I didn't save his posts ) the Speculator/Commercial ratio has reversed. Speculators now short gold and Commercials now very long. He gives credence to the Commercials as to golds direction. We'll see.

I'd like to see RJ's comments. He may have missed the source of bad news but he certainly called the shot!

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:07 - ID#284177)
Daily Market Commentary - Australian Stock Exchange Web Site.
Monday, 27 October 1997. Prices as at 4.05 pm.

The All Ordinaries plunged dramatically today
following the Swiss Central Bank's announcement
that it might sell over half its gold reserves in 1999
causing gold stocks to plummet and compounding
fears of a fall-out from Asia's economic turmoil. The
All Ordinaries Index finished down 84.3 points
( 3.3% ) to close at 2,477.0. 417 million shares worth
$1.082 billion changed hands. Over the past week,
the All Ordinaries Index fell 162.4 points ( 6.15% )
and over the last 12 months it has risen 142.9 points
( 6.12% ) .

Hong Kong's stockmarket fell further today despite
its rebound last Friday. At 3.30pm, the Hang Seng
was down 651 points to 10,494 and the Nikkei fell
335 points to 17,029.

The Australian dollar reached its lowest level since
January 1994 in early trading, diving nearly 2 from
the close on Friday, to $US0.6845. The decline is
attributed to the disappearing interest rate differentials
as well as the financial turmoil hitting Asian markets
which would damage Australia's exports. At 3.30pm,
the Australian dollar firmed to US$0.6862, after
trading in a range between $US0.6845 and
$US0.6910, and on the cross rates was buying
83.85, DEM1.2140, 0.4192 and SF1.000.

As at 12.00pm, the yield on 10 year Treasury bonds
was up 11 basis points to 6.14% and the yield on 90
day Bank Bills was unchanged at 5.45%.

All the 24 Sub-Indices of the All Ordinaries Index
were major movers: Gold down 141.1 points
( 11.3% ) to 1,108.3; Other Metals down 57.0 points
( 5.7% ) to 941.0; Infrastructure down 76.0 points
( 4.5% ) to 1,594.5; Energy down 55.5 points ( 2.8% )
to 1,928.2; Diversified Resources down 61.3 points
( 2.6% ) to 2,325.5; Developers and Contractors
down 211.3 points ( 3.5% ) to 5,770.2; Building
Materials down 106.7 points ( 3.6% ) to 2,894.7;
Alcohol and Tobacco down 149.3 points ( 2.0% ) to
7,453.0; Food and Household down 196.2 points
( 3.6% ) to 5,202.8; Chemicals down 174.3 points
( 4.1% ) to 4,096.3; Engineering down 92.9 points
( 4.5% ) to 1,985; Paper and Packaging down 45.2
points ( 2.1% ) to 2,093.3; Retail down 127.7 points
( 3.5% ) to 3,538.3; Transport down 203.2 points
( 4.9% ) to 3,965.4; Media down 345.3 points ( 2.1% )
to 16,028.5; Banks down 124.1 points ( 2.4% ) to
4,974.4; Insurance up 142.8 points ( 2.3% ) to
6,267.5; Telecommunications down 40.7 points
( 3.8% ) to 1.041.5; Investments and Financial
Services down 173.8 points ( 5.4% ) to 3,049.4;
Property Trusts down 28.4 points ( 2.3% ) to 1,187.9;
Health and Biotechnology down 119.7 points ( 3.9% )
to 2,924.8; Miscellaneous Industrials down 67.4
points ( 4.2% ) to 1,541.9; and Tourism and Leisure
down 163.8 points ( 5.9% ) to 2,604.8.

On the commodities markets, COMEX Gold fell
US$16.10 to a 12 year low of US$307.40/oz after
the release of news last Friday night that the Swiss
Central Bank might sell 1,400t of gold, more than half
of its reserves. NYMEX Oil weakened 18 to
US$20.99/bl. Nervousness that the effects of the
recent crash in the Hong Kong stock market could
spread to North Asia, leading to a downturn in
growth in those markets, had implications on the
metals markets. On the London Metals Exchange,
base metals were down: Zinc lost $9 to US$1,269/t;
Lead was down $7 to US$611/t; Aluminium fell $8
to US$1,590/t; Nickel lost $50 to US$6,225/t;
Copper dropped $52 to near year low levels at
US$2,026/t; and Tin dropped $10 to US$5,410/t.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:19 - ID#386276)
Gold price slide poses threat to miners

Hong Kong battens down for speculators' assault on dollar

Coverage of Asian crisis 'may do long-term damage'

Korean stockmarket follows the meltdown

Britain's euro entry a question of timing

Clinton gets China agreement he needs

Gold miners brace for share slump

(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:27 - ID#431216)
Rarely have I seen a market,Gold,with so much pessimism atteched to it.
If you look at the market sentiment,beyond this group,it's almost
totally negative.Trader's and investors ALL seem to be waiting for the other to move.
This market either goes out of existence or acts like any other market
will.The selling is occuring in a void of buyers.Pychologically
speaking this market is near a bottom.Whether that ends at 250 or 296
or immediately recovery on almost any interest will be swift.IMHO
BTW I've also spoke too soon in the recent past and was surprized by
the move to 310 but happily ,so far, own primarily two stocks RYO and
FSR ( Van ) both of which have not followed this decline.Bullish IMHO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:30 - ID#240142)
There's always tomorrow Nick...your market should be closed by now...what's done is done...have a cold one and enjoy it!

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 03:35 - ID#284177)
Be the first to check out my newly lauched Web Site.

Loving the coming crash. Am just waiting for the bargains. I believe in buying on the BIG DIP, when it has DIPPED OUT......
Some of my clients have been recalling my bearish concerns.
What beats me is how come everyone else couldn't see it!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:30 - ID#257148)
a bottle of champagne (Aussie)... I name this site...
Steve ok, I claim the prize.. good luck in your www venture.. keep posting here tho OK?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:44 - ID#206358)
So as gold,stocks,currencies,land,ANYTHINGS U ASKED FOR IT?!

P/S:cheaper next week!patience....wait for awhile..

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:44 - ID#386276)
Go and have a look at the numbers in the file I posted on
Date: Sat Oct 25 1997 23:57
Nick ( @Aussie ) ID#386276:
Who's buying what.
Here is a spreadsheet showing the closes, vols, $values,o/i, plus changes for US gold, silver and SPX options
Shows some strong buying of calls in precious and puts in SPX

This file will read best if imported into Excell.
Positions being entered show a different bias to the market.
Notice the difference between near dated positions and long dated positions.

Right on.!
You sound like the type of broker I need.
The broker I use in Cairns, I constantly use as a contrarian indicator.
He thought that I should take profits on my put positions on Friday.
Have you heard any whispers on BHP.
If you want to talk send me an email

Indian changes to shake up gold and silver market

World Economy
Unlike its neighbours in South-East Asia, mainland China remains an example of economic and political stability, with a clear program of difficult but viable medium-term development.

Australian markets outlook

Wall Street
The bulls went home for the weekend scoffing at US jitters, while the bears went back to their caves to wonder how long America's bubble can stay inflated,

Street Talk
Deflation, the number one enemy of stock prices, has emerged as the most consistently correct theme in tracking the Australian stockmarket,

What a week it was for equity warrants with plenty of scope for more excitement this week given the potential for volatile markets.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:46 - ID#255151)

Good morning Kitco. Got 11 full f***ing days off now! Most days off in a row in the last fifteen f***ing years! Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war! ( just speaking metaphorically, and I never metaphor I didn't like )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:52 - ID#386276)
ASX ALL MINING INDEX --------------- 649.60 -55.20 -7.83
ASX ALL ORDINARIES INDX---------- 2477.00 -84.30 -3.29
HANG SENG STOCK INDEX -----------10498.20 -646.14 -5.80
HKSE ALL ORDINARIES INDX---------5347.09 -223.63 -4.01
TOPIX INDEX -------------------------------1312.45 -19.24 -1.45
NIKKEI 225 INDEX-------------------------17038.36 -325.38 -1.87
KUALA LUMPUR 2ND BOARD-----------376.89 -5.05 -1.32
KOREA COMPOSITE INDEX --------------530.47 -18.00 -3.28
CHINA CLSA INDEX CHINA WRLD------952.16 -36.98 -3.74

(Mon Oct 27 1997 04:57 - ID#257148)
is it a bird, is it a plane, no it's SuperGoldMan
Nick@Canberra, where you?

JIN what price latest Merc in auctions? How about Proton? Cash is King.

Got the slugs and snails out of the garden ( Sir Sydney Snail safely on top of his pole ) and soon I must sleep, what the world needs now is some kind of hero, to spring from the shadows of telephone boxes, no a SUPER-HERO to stop..... this meteorite heading for Cape Breton--- wrong script no--- we need a Superhero to stop the Financial Panic about to engulf the world ( Yawn ) - to stick a finger in a dyke ( homophones-R-us ) to prevent the cascade of falling paper currencies...where is hero when you need one?

Gotham City calling GoldMan..

do not panic everyone AG is coming.....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:00 - ID#257148)
Fly me to the moon...
Auric G'day, good to see you looking your old self. seen any superheros on the wing

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:09 - ID#386276)
FTSE 100 4933.00 -37.20 at 08:43 on 27 Oct 97

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:10 - ID#386276)
FTSE 100 4925.10 -45.10 at 08:45 on 27 Oct 97

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:13 - ID#255151)

Hi aurator! Quite a bit of angst and gloom amongst both stock AND gold bulls from the looks of it. Do you get a sense we are on the cusp of BIG move? Things are quite unsettled out there. As for me, I am feeling very sanguine. Have placed my bets, got my fox hole carpeted, and will watch the incoming Tsunami. And yes, I am quite aware that I might be the one who gets wet. Let the show begin!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:14 - ID#257148)
Homaurator Simpson
Well, I was hoping for a lullabye, a golden lullabye to rock me to sleep tonite, it may be difficult..I am down to J & M in the morning, tra la la averaging down, Uh Doooh. BBLL

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:18 - ID#257148)
Heh meester, wanna buy a carpet cheeep? Good Quality....
Auric cool- carpeted foxholes

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:44 - ID#226346)
@time to accumulate
I believe the sell off in gold was a bit overdone. Investors always exagerate their actions in response to events seemingly linked to them. Gold will recover here, and investors will begin to gain confidence in the metal forward from here. I mean, how much lower can it go? Many mines are on the verge of closing; and contrary to government propaganda, it's becoming apparent to many that gold IS very important to governments throughout the world. Most investors are aware of the bullish fundamentals for gold. It's accumulation time for both bullion AND the pm stocks.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:54 - ID#386276)
FTSE 100 4897.80 -72.40 at 09:29 on 27 Oct 97

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:55 - ID#255151)

German DAX down 3.5%, London down 4%. Also--Can anyone here confirm that Great Britain now has an inverted yield curve?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 05:59 - ID#386245)
Have been very busy--what with trying to watch the world series and trade at the same time. For a while there I was losing a thousand bucks an inning so took the 4th and 5th off and got most of it back.

If any of you have been waiting for one more little correction to get in cheaply on something that is out of favour ( the contrarian's dream ) , well now is the time folks!! If you are too scared to move now then I suggest you buy bonds and spend all your time raising chooks--at least you can eat the eggs!! The very BEST time to buy something is on a panic selloff with no fundamentals to back it. If you ain't got the huevos--then stock up on chook feed and they'll give you some!!!

G'day Aurator, Nick and Auric. How's it goin' mates??

Big Cheeser
(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:00 - ID#262358)

privateinvestor: Nice to see you a while back at the gold show in New York. I was at the midas fund booth. We talked at length about the interests you represent overseas. What's your take on current asian currency turmoil? What is investor sentiment overseas towards gold investment? How is that deal coming along in Russia?

Big Cheeser

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:03 - ID#33164)
Morning to you All!
Have just scrolled quickly through to catch up------ Oh, My!... Such a fun week-end!! How I giggled.....

BART:-Your Group Therapy is working-that's just what we needed!!

LGB: I thiink you're great. Be nice, darling.

Ron: Your El Nino/UFO Exhaust link hilarious!!! Thank you I shall take that thought to the next dinner party, throw it in, and try to keep my face very straight and serious.

NJ: Thank you for that. You're right, of course. I just like to find 'joy' where I can. { :-}}

Dear Aurator, How are you? Whatever happened to our nice quiet and gentle [SA] mornings? {;-}

Nick@Aussie - You carry on giving us all so much, in the midst of chaos. Thank you. Have just re-read your sobering 12:29 of yesterday. There's only so much one can do to be prepared for any crisis. It's good to receive sound advice, and would suggest to any newies on this site that they scroll to that one.

Steve-Perth. Hello- Wish you well. Have bookmarked your site for a look when I return from CTown.

JIN: Keep well. Take care.

JTF: Think I can get Crook's book to you. Rather technical, and wasted on me. Please e-mail your address?

The Major
(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:03 - ID#372425)
@The Apocal

Virginia Library


Chapter Rev.1

1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for
the time is at hand.

4: John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which
is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the

9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the
isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven
churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto
Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt
about the paps with a golden girdle.

14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as
the sun shineth in his strength.

17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first
and the last:

18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are
the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Chapter Rev.2

1: Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who
walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried
them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4: Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6: But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree
of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8: And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, ( but thou art rich ) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are
Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10: Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second

12: And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13: I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied
my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14: But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to
cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15: So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

16: Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the
hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that
receiveth it.

18: And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of
fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19: I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the

20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a
prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22: Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their

23: And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24: But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths
of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my

28: And I will give him the morning star.

29: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Chapter Rev.3

1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars;
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before

3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will
come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they
are worthy.

5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I
will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of
David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and
hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make
them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon
all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the
name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my
God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the
beginning of the creation of God;

15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art
wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,
and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup
with him, and he with me.

21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father
in his throne.

22: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Chapter Rev.4

1: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet
talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2: And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3: And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight
like unto an emerald.

4: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in
white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5: And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the
throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6: And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne,
were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7: And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth
beast was like a flying eagle.

8: And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9: And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10: The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and
cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they
are and were created.

Chapter Rev.5

1: And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2: And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3: And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4: And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5: And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to
open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6: And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had
been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7: And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8: And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one
of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and
hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11: And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number
of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12: Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and
honour, and glory, and blessing.

13: And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in
them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
for ever and ever.

14: And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and

Chapter Rev.6

1: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts
saying, Come and see.

2: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth
conquering, and to conquer.

3: And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4: And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5: And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and
he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6: And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a
penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power
was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts
of the earth.

9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for
the testimony which they held:

10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on
them that dwell on the earth?

11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their

15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every
bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
wrath of the Lamb:

17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Chapter Rev.7

1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the
wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four
angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the
tribes of the children of Israel.

5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad
were sealed twelve thousand.

6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and
tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their
faces, and worshipped God,

12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for
ever and ever. Amen.

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came

14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have
washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne
shall dwell among them.

16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and
God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Chapter Rev.8

1: And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2: And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he
should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and
thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6: And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third
part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of
the sea became blood;

9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part
of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of
the waters, because they were made bitter.

12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of
the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the
inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Chapter Rev.9

1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless

2: And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and
the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3: And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have

4: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but
only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5: And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was
as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6: And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7: And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like
gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8: And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9: And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many
horses running to battle.

10: And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon,
but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12: One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13: And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14: Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the
third part of men.

16: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17: And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone:
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18: By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of
their mouths.

19: For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they
do hurt.

20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they
should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor

21: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Chapter Rev.10

1: And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his
face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3: And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4: And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5: And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6: And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the
things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he
hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8: And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the
hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9: And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall
make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10: And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I
had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11: And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Chapter Rev.11

1: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the
altar, and them that worship therein.

2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall
they tread under foot forty and two months.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:08 - ID#255151)

Nick of Canberra and Aussie--Good Morning! I found a page that gives yield curves of major world economies. It looks like Britain does indeed have an inverted yield curve. I wonder how long it's been that way.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:20 - ID#386245)
J'burg gold -6.68% -- trying to catch up with us Aussies are ya??? Your fault colleen--get out there and buy Kloof, Harmony and Dreifontein!! Damned good investments!!

Haven't read the bible in years!! My favourite was always Deuteronomy. "Heeeeee that is a bastaaaaaaaard unto the tenth generation, shall not enter the house of the Lord.. " I"ve been called that more than once!! Probably why I don't go to church. I hope the bible basher will find a site of converts that will suit him---AND not waste too much of BART's bandwidth.

Nick@Aussie or anyone else--have you got the URL for the Globex S&P??? I've lost mine in cyberland somewhere.

Big Beaver
(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:23 - ID#262358)
Sunday October 26 8:13 AM EST

Will Stock Freefall Send Investors to Gold?

By Pierre Belec

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Wall Street is forever dodging bullets, and the latest shot came from a panic
sell-off in Hong Kong stocks.

The ripple effect on the global stock market shook investors' confidence but it also gave gold buffs
another reason to gold-plate their investment portfolios.

Stocks spun lower this week, taking their cue from the Hong Kong market's worst collapse in history on
concern that the country might be losing a war with currency speculators.

Hong Kong's blue-chip Hang Seng Index crumbled more than 10 percent, and tumbled 18.1 percent for the
week, becoming the latest casualty of what has come to be known as the "Asian flu." Thailand, Indonesia,
Malaysia and the Philippines have undergone similar shakeouts since midsummer.

By Friday, the Hong Kong market rallied, but the Dow Jones industrial average skidded further on
lingering concern that the crisis may not be over. The Dow closed down 132.36 points at 7,715.41 after
plummeting 187 points on Thursday. For the week, it was down 131.62 points.

The plunge that spread from Southeast Asia to Europe and finally to the United States reminded investors
that the world's biggest stock market was vulnerable to events in faraway markets and of the need to find
safer havens, such as gold.

"We're seeing some interest for gold stocks as a hedge against the Asian crisis," said Douglas Cohen,
equity reseach analyst for Morgan Stanley.

"These stocks have been beaten down so significantly that they have a lot more room on the upside than on
the downside," he said.

Indeed, things may be turning up for gold mutual funds, which had their best showing of the year in the
third quarter.

Lipper Analytical Services said the total return of gold-oriented mutual funds rose 1.3 percent in the
latest quarter after dropping 12.2 percent in the second and slipping 7.8 percent in the first quarter.
The gain was the biggest since a 23.6 percent rise in the first quarter of last year.

Cohen said that if the Asian financial turmoil triggers a bigger freefall in stocks, gold will "assert
its historical role and outperform." Gold has traditionally risen when stocks have been going through
rough times.

Many financial advisers are now recommending that investors hold between 5 percent and 10 percent of
their portfolios in gold-related assets.

For the last four years of huge stock market gains, it has been hard to build a bullish argument for

The precious metal was again under the gun Friday as it retreated to the lowest level in more than a
decade at $308 an ounce on news of a Swiss proposal to sell 1,400 metric tons of gold if it is approved
by a nationwide referendum set for 1999.

James Dines, publisher of the Dines Letter, said gold will turn out to be one of the greatest sleeping

"The Asian turmoil looks like a very strong kind of buying signal for gold because we are getting that
flight to safety and the scared Asian investors are going into the ultimate asset," he said.

Central bank selling and a strong dollar have contributed to the bearish sentiment toward gold, whose
appeal as an insurance policy against hyperinflation has also been undermined by the lowest inflation
rate since the 1960s.

But the gold bugs who tend to have an apocalyptic view of financial markets believe that when everybody
else is bearish, then, it is time to be bullish.

And, a worldwide correction in stocks could bring an accelerated rise in gold, which has attracted only
the most adventurous speculators in the last few years.

Analysts said the metal's fundamentals are improving because depressed gold prices have caused mines to
close while demand is growing.

"Supply-demand is very closely balanced, and any supply dislocation would cause a very tight market,"
said John Geraghty at North American Equity Services, a consulting firm.

He said that "political" supplies from the central bank selling have kept a lid on gold. The leading
central banks of Europe have been steady sellers of gold to raise money to pay for popular social
programs and balance their budgets.

"Effectively, they have been burning the furniture to keep their houses warm," Geraghty said.

Geraghty said that the inevitable results of the central banks' selling is bullish for gold.

"As the banks divest themselves of their gold and their supplies become less of a psychological overhang,
the more likely the value of gold will increase," he said.

On Friday, the Nasdaq composite index closed down 20.33 points at 1,650.92. For the week, it was down

The Standard & Poor's index of 500 was off 9.05 points at 941.64, and stood 2.52 lower from a week ago.
The American Stock Exchange index fell 2.21 to 701.18, and was up 3.00 on the week.

The NYSE Composite lost 3.72 to 495.77. For the week, it was off 8.00 points.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:39 - ID#386245)
Good one, Beaver!!! A contrarian after my own heart!!

Auric-- You'll have to ask someone very sober AND with brains to discuss the Pommie's inverted yield curve. I reckon the Poms are all inverted anyway!! Have you ever seen the majority of their newspapers??? Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesuz what a weird mob!!! Our Aussie rubbishy sitcoms are some of the most popular shows on their tele's. Mind you -- a country that invented Faulty Towers and Monty Python can't be all bad.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:42 - ID#258129)
According to Bloomberg news Swiss government announced, that it want to sell 400 t, not 1400. Any confirmations?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:43 - ID#386276)
LME traders say Soros pulling out of aluminium
Nick@C Gidday mate glad to see you back.
You can also get SP, Au, Si, Pa futures at
Try spz7, gcz7, siz7

"The LME may have fired a warning shot or he may have decided just to liquidate metals to make up for stock market losses," said an LME trader.
"If he ( Soros ) had to get out of aluminium, then he would have liquidated other metals too," said a trader.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:51 - ID#255151)
@WAY too much time on my hands!

Have come up with some anagrams of "Kitco Gold Forum"-- 1. firm gcd outlook 2. ok comfort guild 3. dig from lockout 4. forgot muck idol 5. fog turmoil dock 6.lookout gcd firm

(Mon Oct 27 1997 06:56 - ID#386276)
Big Beaver
Check out the song and film clip for:
"Winona's got a big brown beaver"
It was showing on tv here about a year a go. What a hoot!
One of the best video clips my kids have seen, me too.

Your last post aludes to AG's great fear.
If stocks tank big time their will be a rush to gold.
There could well be another announcement to stop the masses from feeling so inclined.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:15 - ID#386245)
Nick@OZ--am reposting one of your charts. Am I correct in assuming that a big down day in the next couple of days will break through on the downside??

Any chart buffs out there -- can you post the Dow and S&P levels, once broken on the downside say "look out beloooooow!!!"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:17 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:32 - ID#386245)
Thanks Donald@Conn and Nick@Oz-- Globex S&P -690

Wake up TED-- Danged Indians pitcher--if he was an inch taller--woulda gone to the 12th!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:32 - ID#252127)
Will stock freefall send investors into gold?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:36 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:38 - ID#318123)
Just got in and looked at the oversea markets, red means down right? This kind of puts us back to last Thursday curtain call. The Dow and Nasdaq are in for a busy day we could very well see trading records broken again today. The day Gold gains back Friday's loss plus some??

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:40 - ID#255151)

Here is a repost of a URL by someone yesterday. This is really cool! Has an aesthetically pleasing, easy to use layout. Links to: Kitco Gold Forum, The Privateer ( Howdy Cap'n ) , The Gold-Eagle, 24 hour Spot Quote, Foreign stocks, plus some updated news affecting gold. It's one to bookmark.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:41 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:41 - ID#31868)
@Shoveling metals into knapsacks
Donald: Do you like irony. Clinton is going to announce today that the deficit is even lower later on today. On Yahoo.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:44 - ID#26793)
Tolerant1: He won't be able to announce it later, capital gains taxes will not be arriving at the Treasury anymore.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:46 - ID#344308)
this week will live in infamy----

4 days and counting----equities have had
their day in the sun, now they are relegated
to the dark-side-of-the-moon. ( pink floyd )

beware paper and its' task-masters, their ship
is awash with the waves of chaos, and a tsunami
named flux is on the horizon....

smoke-signals have shown when, where have you been?

cherokee!; ) owner-of-the-arrow-that-did-the-deed!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:47 - ID#31868)
@Using dump truck now.
Doanld: Your killin me!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:51 - ID#31868)
Greenspan takes a bath and thinks. You don't think he uses Mr. Bubble now do ya?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:54 - ID#252127)
Possible Swiss Gold Sales

No one seems to consider how much of this "possible" Swiss sale will be between them and other CB's.
With many currencies in turmoil; why would the Swiss vote YES on the proposed 1999 referendum?
This whole exercise may be engineered to protect overvalued stock markets and the dollar, both forms of paper, "also a commodity", which in those forms can become worthless.
Latest bull is that US deficit is only $22 billion dollars. Clinton is scheduled to talk today. Artical seen on scroll down to find.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:54 - ID#386245)
CNBC gold 311
Right direction!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:56 - ID#31868)
I do not think the numbers in gold represented people's divestiture of gold, but rather other entities that had to sell off in order to meet other obligations.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:59 - ID#231277)
(@handle too long to type for repetetive posting)
good morning everyone. now that some of us had a good night sleep ( as
per time zone ) most of you are still asleep. sweet dreams !

(Mon Oct 27 1997 07:59 - ID#33164)
Anagrams Auric?
Hi AURIC! Thanks for those anags. Here's a really great site I eventually discovered, [ there are plenty]
This seems to be the best around. I have other sites with some good anagrams on as well, if you wish. [Next week]

DONALD: Please keep them coming! Even if I have to read them the next day, I don't mind. Thank you.
Re: Armstrong: [Your post 26/10/ 18:15 ] Please could you give me the link?

Hi Nick@VGWTL@Canberra. Good to see you back! Is it really a good time to get into Gold shares, do you think? [Rather than coins?- we're not allowed to hold bullion here in SA, I hear]

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:00 - ID#57232)
@Home - Everyone sleep well?
Colleen: Could you repost your E-mail address? I lost it in the pile of Kitco posts.
Aurator: Great comments about Supergoldman. Last night I was wondering if God and Gold were getting mixed up. Great idea about posting our concerns and some data about derivatives to some key people -- worth a try to "save the world". I'm willing to try it -- but that's not going to stop the Kondratiev wave -- which will eventually happen anyway.
All: Looks like gold and silver have some life left in them. Maybe that whopper about Switzerland emptied the quiver. Don't underestimate our White Night, however.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:03 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
Nick ( C ) Like I said last night..."Jose Mesa for Marlin's MVP!!"...Looks like the Hang Seng took it up the wazoo again and Europe is all in the RED too with Germany down 4%---mornin Ckerokee....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:09 - ID#31868)
Does anybody notice the world is up to it's ear's in red ink as the murderer of students arrives from China to get into bed with President.

It also hacks me off to no end that Clinton wants the fast track at this very precipitous point in financial history.

Mark my words, when the historians have a chance to sharpen their pencils Clinton will go down in history as a less then nothing President. The American people DO think with their wallets and when they have all the slight of hand this man has used on them, layed out before them, it will not be pretty.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:14 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:21 - ID#255151)
@ Look out, gcd firm!

Colleen--glad you enjoyed them! Hell, I hate to give away my best tricks, but here goes-- Here is the most easy and fun anagram site I've found-- Have fun!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:22 - ID#386245)
G'day Ted--it's been a long week in the trenches.

I think we all need to sharpen our PR skills. Maybe a big "announcement" to counter their Swiss non-event!! Have any of you bothered to look at the Swiss voting patterns on referenda??? The Swiss distrust their government even more than we do. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the vast majority of referenda in Switzerland are shoved back up their leader's glockenspiels!! Donald@Home -- how about finding the %age of Swiss refernda that pass ( should take you @ 30 seconds ) .

Ted-- the new "announcement" to the press should be something like "Ted Sells Drips!!! Buys gold!!! That should move the market!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:22 - ID#364147)

October 27, 1997

Swiss Move Has Investors
Pondering Banks' Strategy


After gold on Friday turned in one of its worst performances in years, the
question weighing on investors is how much of the metal central banks
might unload.

In the largest one-day drop in price since Aug. 4, 1993, gold plunged 5%
after a Swiss panel proposed that the nation sell more than half of its giant
gold reserve. Gold for December delivery shot down $16.10 to $308.60
per troy ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange's Comex division.

The Swiss proposal would bring no new gold from the country onto the
market until at least 1999 and needs to be approved by the nation's
Parliament and voting population. Nevertheless, the prospect of more
selling by Switzerland or other European nations continues to haunt the
precious-metals markets.

"I think the gold price will go lower because there is a higher risk factor" of
selling by the key holders of the metal: central banks, said Andrew Smith,
an analyst for Union Bank of Switzerland in London. Many analysts are
predicting that some nations will sell gold in coming years to reduce debt,
replacing it with better-performing financial instruments such as currencies
and bonds. "The Swiss can be put aside for two years, but [their
announcement] will possibly excite selling from others," said Mr. Smith.

Investors share the same fears about the metal, which has declined in price
by 26% since its 1996 peak. In short, the metal is suffering from a
perception that central banks don't need to hold as much gold to bolster
confidence in their economies. Already, observers point to recent sales by
Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands and Canada, saying further sales could
flood the market with gold, driving prices sharply lower.

Those beliefs came to a head Friday in a sell-off that stunned traders and
demoralized gold investors. At one point during the day, the metal skidded
to a 12-year low of $308.30. "It's like a war zone," said Dinsa Mehta,
Chase Manhattan Bank's managing director of global commodities.
"Sellers had a free ticket," he said, noting that Switzerland reinforced
widespread fears that gold's role as a monetary benchmark could diminish.

The unfolding financial crisis in Southeast Asia also damaged sentiment for
gold, amid concerns about an economic slowdown. Some investors and
traders fear that central banks in the region will sell gold to defend battered
currencies. Meanwhile, jewelry demand in Asian nations is expected to fall
markedly as consumers sift through their crumbled stock portfolios.

But Friday's carnage was ultimately touched off on the London bullion
market minutes after the Swiss committee announced its recommendation
that the country's central bank sell 1,400 tons of gold, 54% of its reserve.
Spot gold prices in London dropped $2.30 to $320.50 an ounce.

Led by officials at the Swiss finance ministry and Swiss National Bank, the
committee is charged with reviewing Switzerland's gold policy. The panel
concluded that the metal should be "freed up for other purposes," said
Werner Abegg, a spokesman for the national bank. "It's an assessment by
experts about what amount of gold should remain at the central bank for
economic reasons," Mr. Abegg noted.

David Rinehimer, director of futures research for Smith Barney Inc., a unit
of Travelers Group, said the Swiss announcement "highlights that central
banks will continue to reduce their reserves and reduces gold's standing as
monetary asset." He added, "Even though it's only a proposal and it's
down the road, the general thinking is that central banks that want to sell
will do it" soon, before possible Swiss sales could weigh down prices

To be sure, the Swiss panel's recommendation didn't come as a total
shock. Switzerland has been considering abolishing its gold standard for
nearly a year and also has said it would sell gold for a fund to aid
Holocaust victims and their families, as well as victims of natural disasters.

But most traders were startled by the size of the recommended sale,
roughly equivalent to seven months of world-wide mine production. "The
market expected a lower recommendation, maybe 500 or 600 tons," said
Andrew Smith, a metals analyst at Union Bank of Switzerland in London.

Also, many market participants saw the recommendation as tantamount to
a crumbling of Switzerland's support for gold. The third-largest central
bank holding the metal behind the U.S. and Germany, it has for years
valued the metal for its independence from individual foreign economies.
"The Swiss had been one of the holdouts for gold," maintaining the gold
standard after it was dropped by other countries, said William Byers, head
of commodity research for Bear, Stearns & Co. in New York. He called
the apparent change of heart by the Swiss "devastating" for gold investors.

Traders and investors sold early and often in the gold market Friday,
sending the nearby October gold future down $6.50 on the Comex
opening. The steady torrent of selling did not abate through the hectic
trading day, as hedge funds and commodity pools closed out bullish "long"
positions and established new bearish bets.

The turmoil spread to mining stocks Friday as the Gold-Silver Index
plummeted 8.7% on the Philadelphia Stock Exchange. The South African
All-Gold stock index dropped 4.92%. "The producers we deal with
weren't very happy," said Andrew Brosoff, a precious-metals trader at
Mitsui & Co. in New York "They may have to shut down."

The possibility that more mines will be shuttered or delayed could curtail
supply, lending some support to the market, more bullish analysts
suggested. At the end of 1996, mining companies were pulling gold from
the ground at an average total cost of $317 an ounce. That's nearly $10
more than they can now get for the metal on the spot market, $308.35 an
ounce at the close of trading in the U.S. on Friday.

Traders and investors sold early and often in the gold market Friday,
sending the nearby October gold future down $6.50 on the Comex
opening. The steady torrent of selling did not abate through the hectic
trading day, as hedge funds and commodity pools closed out bullish "long"
positions and established new bearish bets.

The turmoil spread to mining stocks Friday as the Gold-Silver Index
plummeted 8.7% on the Philadelphia Stock Exchange. The South African
All-Gold stock index dropped 4.92%. "The producers we deal with
weren't very happy," said Andrew Brosoff, a precious-metals trader at
Mitsui & Co. in New York "They may have to shut down."

The possibility that more mines will be shuttered or delayed could curtail
supply, lending some support to the market, more bullish analysts
suggested. At the end of 1996, mining companies were pulling gold from
the ground at an average total cost of $317 an ounce. That's nearly $10
more than they can now get for the metal on the spot market, $308.35 an
ounce at the close of trading in the U.S. on Friday.

Return to top of page
Copyright  1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:22 - ID#344308)
morning ted-----

i'll roll the dice for you in vegas
this week-end. about the same chances
as making money on stocks..............imnsho

will be in s. california for the next two weeks
and hope to find gold in them-thar-hills!

cherokee!; ) riding-metal-into-the-skies

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:28 - ID#364147)
@ CherOkee
As you can see,I'm right with you.....happy trails...and wish I was going!! Go VEGAS!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:28 - ID#57232)
QMan: If you can gather up an E-mail list, we can do what you suggested -- the only thing we can complain about is unregulated world wide derivatives trading, or uncontrolled attacks by hedge funds. Personallly, I think we will not be successful for two reasons: 1 ) We are talking about individuals who have access to trillions of dollars, and 2 ) street lights are never putup at that intersection, until someone dies.
My point is that the authorities will move to slowly to prevent this eventual collapse of paper, Wichita Lineman's comments notwithstanding! His comments sting a bit, because he is right about goldbugs in general!
Please remember that AG is ( I think ) on our side, if he has not been corrupted by the system. He still talks about going to the gold standard. As a single person, he would be most likely to put a stop to the derivatives problem. He does have a problem, because the Central Banks are doing it too, and they might well get caught with their hands in the cookie jar!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:29 - ID#31868)
Here's one for ya:

Gold Rises Again = Solid Gains Rage

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:31 - ID#364147)
@ Nick(C)
Sell the drips????????.....argggggghhhhh....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:31 - ID#252166)

Global Economy Faces Trouble

By Charles J. Hanley
AP Special Correspondent
Sunday, October 26, 1997; 1:26 p.m. EST

The talk these prosperous days, from Wall Street to Wuhan, is of
boundless economic horizons. But just over the horizon lies a
familiar patch of troubled waters, a blue-green whirlpool called
the Persian Gulf.

As the global economy sped ahead in 1997, navigating through
market dips and Asian currency scares, optimists began
speculating about a ``repeal'' of the laws of boom and bust. But
they'd better repeal the laws of internal combustion first.

A check of America's gas tank tells you why: The United States
is importing more than half the oil it burns. And Persian Gulf
petroleum is even more important elsewhere in the world economy,
especially in parts of Asia where the optimism already is
tempered by currency crises and stockmarket slumps.

It's been a generation since the industrial world first learned
what an oil crisis could mean.

At that time, in 1973, an Arab embargo led to a quadrupling of
oil prices and a world recession. A few years later, Iran's
revolution produced another global oil squeeze and economic

In those years, the United States relied on imports for as
little as one-third of its oil.

The new heavy dependence on foreign oil troubles some in
Washington. Hazel O'Leary, the former energy secretary, said
earlier this year that ``we need a wake-up call'' that only a
new oil price shock might provide.

Oil traders, of course, don't need reminders. When the U.S.
aircraft carrier Nimitz rushed to the Persian Gulf this month,
amid heightening tensions there, crude oil prices jumped almost
$2 a barrel, to more than $23.

That ``crisis of the month'' may be subsiding, but the twists
and turns of the Gulf whirlpool remain unpredictable:

--In the Gulf's tight quarters, crowded with American, Iranian
and other naval vessels, miscalculations and mishaps easily can
escalate into confrontation.

--Iran and Iraq might clash over Iraq's sheltering of anti-
Iranian guerrillas, a flashpoint for tensions in recent weeks.

--Iraq might draw U.S. or broader international retaliation if
it violates ``no-fly'' zones or rejects U.N. weapons

--Terrorists might again attack American forces in the region.
If an Iranian link is uncovered, a major Gulf showdown could

Crises like these would each affect the flow of oil in different
ways. For one thing, long-distance pipelines make the region
less dependent on Gulf shipping than it once was. But any Gulf
conflict inevitably would drive oil prices up sharply and
quickly. And the waves and ripples from such an emergency, even
if short-lived, would reach everywhere.

America's oil imports have been climbing since the mid-1980s, as
domestic oil production declined by more than 25 percent. The
U.S. appetite grew in the '90s with the booming economy and the
popularity of sport utilities and other gas-hungry vehicles. So
far this year, imports have supplied 55 percent of consumption,
one-fifth of that coming from the Persian Gulf.

In Asia, the heavier dependence grew even more quickly.

China, an oil producer, became an oil importer in 1993 as it
modernized industry from coastal Shanghai to inland Wuhan.
Expanding automobile ownership across East Asia may help boost
global consumption from today's 73 million barrels a day to over
90 million by 2010, energy analysts say.

Already operating at more than 90 percent capacity, oil
producers will scramble to keep up. The big energy companies
have big plans for the Caucasus and Central Asia, but the flow
from many of those fields lies years over the horizon.

Until then, the Gulf, with its oil and its crises, lies
comfortably --and uncomfortably -- closer at hand. It's a fact
of life sometimes forgotten as stock indexes have risen on Wall
Street, but never forgotten in the whirlpool itself.

``My job is stability,'' a U.S. destroyer captain told a
reporter in the Gulf earlier this year. ``Because if this neck
of the world blew up, what would really suffer is the world
economy. That's what it all comes back to -- economics.''

EDITOR'S NOTE -- Charles J. Hanley has reported on international
affairs for The Associated Press since 1976.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:32 - ID#252166)

"Iraq Acts Against U.N. Inspectors"

By Waiel Faleh
Associated Press Writer
Sunday, October 26, 1997; 6:33 p.m. EST

BAGHDAD, Iraq ( AP ) -- The Iraqi Parliament recommended Sunday
that contacts with U.N. weapons inspectors be frozen -- a
response provoked by a U.N. Security Council threat of further
sanctions against Baghdad.

During Sunday's televised session, Iraq's National Assembly
called on the government to suspend its cooperation with U.N.
inspectors trying to verify whether Iraq has eliminated its
weapons of mass destruction.

The National Assembly sent its recommendations to the Revolution
Command Council, Iraq's main decision-making body, the Iraqi
News Agency reported, giving no further details.

However, assembly members speaking on condition of anonymity
said the 250-member body, which debated for two days, proposed
that Iraq halt all contacts with the inspectors ``until Iraq's
cooperation is recognized.''

Assembly Speaker Saadoun Hamadi conveyed the recommendation to
President Saddam Hussein, the deputies said. Saddam had referred
the U.N. resolution to the largely rubber-stamp Parliament for a

The arms inspections date to the end of Persian Gulf War in
1991, when the council ordered Iraq to destroy its long-range
missiles and chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Until Iraq adheres to the order, the council will not lift stern
economic sanctions imposed after Saddam sent his forces into
Kuwait in 1990.

Last June, the council warned Iraq that it would consider a
travel ban unless the U.N. inspectors' October report found
Baghdad in compliance. The report concluded, however, that Iraq
was withholding information and impeding the investigation.

In response, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution
Thursday warning Baghdad that the council will ban foreign
travel by some Iraqi officials if the country does not cooperate
with inspectors.

Deputy Iftikhar Ahmad Ayoob said during Sunday's session that
she endorses the recommendation to freeze ties until there is
recognition that Iraq has made efforts to comply with U.N.

``They made us feel like we have not done anything. It is all
because of the blind hatred of the American administration,''
she said.

Saad Qassem Hamoudi, another deputy, said Iraq had fulfilled its
duties toward the inspectors.

``It is time that the world ... give Iraq its rights because it
has implemented most of the resolutions,'' Hamoudi told the

Saddam repeatedly has threatened to end cooperation with U.N.
inspectors, believing that the United States and Britain will
never agree to lift sanctions.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:32 - ID#26059)
Where is there a site that I can pick up the quotes for the foreign stock markets? Thanks

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:36 - ID#57232)
Ted: Great post from the WSJ. The powers that be will try to milk the Swiss gold "sales" -- the -- "story of the century" dry. As far as I am concerned this is the last cry of wolf -- the next cry will not be believed. This is probably near bottom for gold. The Swiss going off the gold standard! Ha!
Wait -- there is something more shocking! The day that the Rothschild's and the Rockefellers sell all their gold and buy dollars with both hands. That would do it! I can't wait!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:38 - ID#20135)
Another sleepless night. On TED's post it just happened to jump out at me. " largest single day drop since august 1993". Well, we all know how gold faired after that drop. Getting to tired to think -- maybe that 's gooooood, but its things like that a bottom make. Currency crisis is here, commodities will be favored. ( IMHO )

Date: Mon Oct 27 1997 08:22
Ted ( @ WSJ ) ID#364147:

October 27, 1997

Swiss Move Has Investors
Pondering Banks' Strategy


After gold on Friday turned in one of its worst performances in years, the
question weighing on investors is how much of the metal central banks
might unload.

In the largest one-day drop in price since Aug. 4, 1993, gold plunged 5%
after a Swiss panel proposed that the nation sell more than half of its giant
gold reserve. Gold for December delivery shot down $16.10 to $308.60
per troy ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange's Comex division.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:38 - ID#33164)
JTF Good Afternoon!
Hello JTF: This time zone thing is really confusing me- thought you were asleep. How are you? Ready for the week ahead?
Try I'll get back to you after my return from CTwn.
Tolerant1: You certainly are! Good to meet you..
Hello Qman: Power of the Meme? Good idea.
Auric: Thanks! Love anything that grows my 'dendrites' !

Have just heard on our local radio - ' It's a blood-bath here today [at the JSE" Do you chaps have any urls for me? Thanks.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:43 - ID#386245)
Bob M

Cheers, Nick

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:45 - ID#57232)
Colleen: 6:40AM my time --Got your site where I can't lose it again. Slept well, despite the commotion last night. Looks like the hedge funds may be attacking HK again. Hope not. Notice how China went up, but not Hong Kong. Is there a message there? I may hold on to my gold stocks during this storm -- the gold stocks might not be good short term, but long term gold has to go to at least $600 /oz US.
I guess I must forget about short-term profits. This charade with weak gold and strong dollar cannot last!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:48 - ID#33164)
Hello again- Is that you JTF? or is JTR someone else?

I absolutely agree with the JTR post.
And think- what better diversion for instability [in whatsoever sphere] at 'home', than the diversion of threatened/real war?
Remember, though, the Battle of Salamis...

Off to the bank- again!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:49 - ID#364147)
@ JTF + A Goose
The pessimism is getting extreme ( hmmmmmmmmmm )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 08:58 - ID#286199)
S&P futures are down 12.75 on Globex.
Cherokee: I missed some days with a faulty ISP. What's the countdown for? It seems apropo for the volatile markets.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:03 - ID#31868)
Lady Colleen: Greetings. I read an earlier post of your's regarding bullion and such. I think that one of your alternative's may be found at:

I am a customer of their's and am adding to my holdings as I am able. I am spread around in metal stocks, coins, bullion and e-gold.

This is a suggestion I feel may enable you to spread your risk around. It is another way of holding the metals and may suit your needs. Should you need anything further or have more specific's

Hope all is well.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:08 - ID#31868)
For those of you that are contrarian. Take El Nino. They say mild winter her in the states.

I say, I bought extra winter items as I think this Winter is going to be a real bear. ( no pun intended )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:10 - ID#261118)
@ colleen'n T1
I grabbed your genius 2K URL; will look later. Saw your post to Nick: no bullion in SA!?, so where's SA? Here in Texas of course that's San Antonio, home of our shrine, The Alamo: what's your SA?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:15 - ID#261118)
@ Tolerant1
Sorry, I forgot your part of the last message. You post on Clinton's anouncement today; well what if markets tank enough that investors sitting with losses hold tight ( the denial thing ) , and those anticipated capital gains income for the gov. doesn't appear? Believe me their counting on that, this market tank couldn't come at a worse time psycologicly speaking although those expected revenues are a tiddy sum!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:17 - ID#211237)
Boys!!, Down the Dow!

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:20 - ID#26059)
Dow will drop loke a rock early today, then will reverse and rally by days end. This seems to be the pattern..bad news is just an excuse to go higher.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:20 - ID#26059)
Dow will drop loke a rock early today, then will reverse and rally by days end. This seems to be the pattern..bad news is just an excuse to go higher.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:27 - ID#211237)
Is the dow opening later today as indicated on yahoo, or is it that the internet connection stuffed again?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:30 - ID#31868)
Badger: A possible scenario for the sidelined. Clinton is toast. The worse the economy gets, the harder, faster and more furious the attacks on him will become. The media has no choice but to begin presenting the truth about the Goldilock's Economy. Like Bill at Privateer says, the bears finally came home.

Fast-track paradigm, what they believe.

In the street with a pair of dimes, what I believe.

Excerpt from Strategic Investments

Inflation Countermeasures: Real Assets

Many investors have speculated that inflationary indicators have been deliberately misrepresented for months in favor of prolonging "maximum sustainable growth." The latest EMU and Canadian bank action supports this belief. So far so good. Should Greenspan tighten into this reality after the FOMC, then real asset values may skyrocket.

In periods of pure inflation, real asset values become paramount. Concern over real purchasing power shifts consumer behavior towards assets which hold their value in the face of rising costs and central bank issued paper. Precious metals ( primarily gold & silver, though sometimes platinum & mercury ) have this intrinsic value and backed by thousands of years of human history, are the traditional inflationary countermeasures. They are the intrinsic benchmarks of wealth.

An EMU central bank president is due to be named by mid next year. That banker will control up to 80 percent of the World's gold reserves outside the US via Euro member central banks. Peter Munk of Barrick Gold commented that gold is likely to play a role in proving the strength of the EMU currency in 1999. Major gold producers would be happy if Europe's new central bank decided to hold reserves at 16.7 percent of total reserves. If they choose to liquidate reserves, the World Gold Council, a producer-funded marketing body, will have a group of major financial institutions "ready to take the gold off their hands," Munk said.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:30 - ID#258427)
Scott & Bart
Set your clock back one hour ... *grin thing*

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:32 - ID#31868)
Bob M.: Don't bet on it.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:37 - ID#33164)
JSE biggest percentage loss since 1991
Looks like JSE is also feeling this badly- just heard the above on Radio 702.
Badger- Hello! SA= Sunny South Africa. I'm in Jhbg-known as Egoli or Place of Gold! Our province is no longer called 'Transvaal', but 'Gauteng'- the nagram for which is "Get a Gun"!! or "A Nugget " . Like so much else, the choice is there in our perception.
Tolerant1-Thank you for the link. Are you from the ' South" USA?
BobM: Do you have a website? I will need to speak to you about coins.

Trying not to take up too much of Bart's space! - SCOTT: Hello-Where can I find those DOW current details ?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:44 - ID#261118)
@ home
Bob, correct. The Dow will drop 200+, then "rally" back up 50/80 pt. on the close. Now a world of novice investors are saying "hey?, wher'd our money go?, where's our 34% annual return?, where's the phone?...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:46 - ID#272206)
@waiting for the S&P or Gold or both to crash
A salute to you valiant Goldbugs that will not be deterred by the worst news in decades for Gold. I spoke to my cousin at length about Gold and interest rates. He is responsible for all of the investments for one of the top four largest banks in the United States. I heard nothing positive about Gold. However, his bank is one of the prime participants in the yen for US T-bill interest play and he fears one thing more than any other. A US devaluation! He also leans towards INFLATION and HIGHER INTEREST RATES in the US. Concerning large speculators who specialize in currencies and commodities- they often get conditional loans such that if their markets move against them their funds are called! What this means to me is that the attack against the HK currency will quickly abate if the mainlanders stiffen.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:50 - ID#31868)
Lady Colleen: No. Birthed in NY, soul from the Conch Republic.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:50 - ID#287279)
From my grandpa's memoir.

When they tell you how much they like you, it's time to watch your back!
When they tell you they come in peace, prepare for war!
When they tell you it's worthless, accumulate it!
When they tell you things are good, prepare for lean times!
When they tell you "trust me", question their every action!
When they tell you you dont need it, it will be scarce!
When they tell you it's valuable, you can do without!

From Bill Buckler's "Privateer"
In the words of Ayn Rand: "Don't bother to examine a folly, ask yourself only what it accomplishes."

"Gold is now tempting to any investor with even an inkling of the true nature of the situation. If it goes lower, it will become more tempting. In the face of mounting financial carnage all around, Rubin and Greenspan must hold up the market, mop up excess liquidity flowing into U.S. debt markets, control U.S. interest rates, and hold down the Gold price. Not even Hercules could do all that!"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:52 - ID#31868)
Kolorado: I don't know one banker that has anything nice to say about gold. It is their wooden stake. They despise real money.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:55 - ID#261118)
@ kolorado
I can see just the reverse; big trader know on anothers financial situations so those loans are no secret,currency speculators know this and are patiently circleing the wounded caribou, no need for injury; time and more importently momentum and FEAR on their side.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:55 - ID#31868)
Shek: Your grandpa was a wise man.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 09:56 - ID#426220)
LBMA EXPOSEE: PART 8: (October 27, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
"The Onion PARADOX" peels yet another layer away from the eventual truth of the LONDON BULLION MARKETING ASSOCIATION...:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:01 - ID#26793)

Structural Change and Exchange Rate

How swiftly times change! Two years ago Japan, and to a
lesser extent Germany and Switzerland, were suffering from
the unparalleled strength of their own currencies, while an
apparently free-falling dollar continued to give additional
impetus to a booming American economy. Today, against a
background of massive shifts in the international monetary
structure, the picture is completely different. The dollar is
flourishing, while the formerly strong currencies have slipped
back to more reasonable levels. The dollar now stands at
least 25% above its former low - 50% above in relation to the
Japanese yen.

The altered exchange rates are an expression of various forces.
First among these is the varying monetary policies in the
different currency blocs. Second come certain tangible factors:
The dollar is strong because America has been enjoying a
robust up-cycle for years; the other currencies are weak in part
because of the substantial deficits in their respective
economies. Finally, the dollar is strong because official
Washington stands behind it. In Robert Rubin, the U.S. has a
treasury secretary who does not drive a wedge between the
inner and outer stability of the American currency. When the
heads of the U.S. automotive industry recently objected to the
strong dollar, Treasury enunciated a clear message: If we
want low inflation, low interest and a strong economy, a strong
dollar is part of the package.

If Rubin's principle is transposed to Continental Europe, it is
evident that weak currencies can do no more than provide
temporary economic impetus. Stagnation can only be overcome
in the context of major corporate restructuring ( including the
downsizing of clumsy conglomerates ) , flanked by a credible
economic policy. What's lacking in Europe becomes clear when
we examine the causes of American dynamism. On this side of
the Atlantic, competition is repeatedly strangled and
deregulation remains halfhearted at best. Labor costs are too
high in proportion to capital costs, and while the service sector
remains underdeveloped, policies to salvage long-obsolete
production structures are all too common. And long overdue
reforms of the welfare state are generally nipped in the bud.

As to Switzerland, it seems at least to have done some
homework under the pressure of six years of stagnation.
Export-oriented corporations such as ABB or Novartis - to
name two concerns that have faced up to restructuring with
particular verve - have recognized that survival in the global
market requires lean structures and focused forces. The weak
Swiss franc is of enormous benefit to such companies and all
others that have accepted the challenge of global competition
in recent years. Bank economists estimate that, in the two years
ending in December 1998, Swiss export industries will take in
nearly Sfr. 4 billion in additional currency-linked profits. That
will be the proverbial warm rain which could also make
less-export-oriented industries blossom, and it exceeds
anything that could ever be earned by the economy as a result
of well-intentioned government pump-priming programs. In
this way the weak franc actually helps protect the flanks of all
those firms that have not yet made the necessary structural

Of course, business must not rely on a cheap export franc for
too long; the risks attendant on a weak currency, and the
danger of an abrupt trend reversal, are too great. So it is
evident that the Swiss economy must take advantage of the
present weak-franc stage now. The faster it makes the needed
structural changes in the lee of favorable exchange rates, the
more likely it is to sail firmly through the next period of a
restrengthened franc.

Daniel Hofmann

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:06 - ID#26793)
Watching CNBC the talking head is not worried because Asia takes only 10% of US exports. There is not even a glimmer of an understanding that the true nature of the Asian problem is cheap and getting cheaper imported goods, not export trade problems.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:08 - ID#26793)
Conch Republic one of my favorite places.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:08 - ID#41182)
I think gold is about to take off. The contrarian in me sees the following.:

These are not unwise people. Could it be the canny Swiss are driving down the price to buy more at a better price?

NO ONE would be so stupid to pre announce the sale a commodity like gold before they were to sell it. You would know right away the announcement itself would lose you value.

There is more going on here than we are allowed to know.

Have a great day and keep the faith.

Remember government will protect itself first, then big business, then the unions, then us.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:10 - ID#348169)
"Mishaps are like knives, that either serve us or cut us,
as we grasp them by the blade or the handle." - James Russel Lowell

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:12 - ID#7568)

Just got off the phone with my partner chatting about our strategy in the S&P's. We went through the various scenarios and both agreed that if we got another triple digit down day it would be very hard to stop the ball from rolling down the hill. This isn't an exercise in technical analysis or valuation or anything else other than trying to gauge raw human emotion. The question is, how much bad news in the form of price declines can the average Joe take, before he decides to lighten up a little. We are not talking about complete liquidation of portfolios, we are only talking about a marginal shift into cash. With the mutual fund industry contributing 20 billion dollars a month into the game, all it will take is a tiny shift to blow the whole ship out of the water. We have come to take for granted that the entire volume of national savings should be 'invested' into the stock market through mutual funds. Should this equation revert back to its pre 1995 form we will experience a wrenching bear market.

So the question remains, how much news needs to be generated to get the avalanche rolling. My best guess is that 3 days of triple digit declines will be enough in this environment to generate a 4th. The 4th will generate a 5th and however more are needed until the first phase of the bear market are complete. Under this hypothesis the last hour or two of today's trading is crucial. If it appears that we are heading for another 150 point day or better then it will be time to bring more logs to the fire. If not we will probably cover our position and look for another entry point.

In chatting with my partner he told me of an indicator that he used to watch very closely back in the 73-74 bear market. At the time he was the administrative general partner of a Wall St. firm which did OTC stocks. One of the things that he used to watch very closely was what he termed NASDAQ contractions. Naive me thought this was some sort of volume indicator and I enquired as to how it was constructed. He replied that it was nothing very esoteric but was simply the number of stocks delisted for any given week. In a war I think this would be called the body count.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:13 - ID#26059) website

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:13 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:15 - ID#33164)
Donald-Prechter site- JTF url for Crooks book
Donald: Thank you for the Prechter site- my mind is whirling!! There's so much to learn in the midst of all the current excitement. Feel I'm getting way behind!

JTF: I have an url for Fred Crooks new book "The Universal Gene"

{;-} Hope all goes well with you All.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:16 - ID#25645)
Bell Labs Proves Existence of Dark Suckers
For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light. However,
recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise. Electric bulbs
don't emit light, they suck dark. Thus they now call these bulbs dark
suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a Bell Labs spokesperson,
proves the existence of dark, that dark has mass heavier than that of
light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. Take for
example, the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is less dark right
next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the dark sucker, the greater
its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a parking lot have a much greater
capacity than the ones in this room.

As with all things, dark suckers don't last
forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is
proven by the black spot on a full dark sucker. A candle is a primitive
dark sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that after
the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark which has
been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating
candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the path of the dark
flowing into the candle. Unfortunately, these primitive dark suckers have a
very limited range.

There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in
these can't handle all of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a
dark storage unit. When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either
emptied or replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this mass
generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark sucker.
Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in the solid
wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount of heat.
Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you notice it
gets slowly darker and darker. When you reach a depth of approximately 300
feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to
the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats to the top.

The immense power of dark can be utilized to mans advantage. We can collect
the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it through
turbines, which generate electricity and help push it to the ocean where it
may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much more difficult to get
dark from the rivers and lakes to the ocean. The Indians recognized this
problem, and tried to solve it. When on a river in a canoe travelling in
the same direction as the flow of the dark, they paddled slowly, so as not
to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled against the flow of dark,
they paddled quickly so as to help push the dark along its way.

Dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in an illuminated room in
front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open the closet door, you would see
the light slowly enter the closet, but since the dark is so fast, you would not
be able to see the dark leave the closet.

Bell Labs stated that the concept of dark suckers make all our lives much
easier. So the next time you look at a light, remember that it is actually a
dark sucker.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:20 - ID#30116)
@Not preaching to the choir!
To those of you who say gold is dead, BS! I'm tired of reading these obituaries on gold.

The rest of you on this site now the story and facts about the metals. It's the 'media' who doesn't get it. But they will! GIVE ME A BREAK! Gold is too expensive to buy because your currency was devalued? George Orwell is alive and well.... Double speak and double think!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:24 - ID#31868)
panda: I agree, it is BS...........BULLION SOARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:28 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:29 - ID#31868)
CNBC the talkinghead/disinformation mochine says US market is SUPREME...Asia means to rally by mid-day.

How can anyone on this planet defend the US as a safe haven, supreme market, and a flight to quality when we are the single largest debtor in the history of those walking upright.

Allen (@USA)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:34 - ID#246224)
@JIN and ALL, re sell offs and gold warehouse stocks COMEX
JIN & ALL - Thanks, Jin, for the invitation to the Christmas sale ( in Thailand ) . I'm afraid that we are all in for that kind of 'garage sale' sooner than later. Alot of folks with *high* incomes here in the US have not saved much. They have *speculated* and they spend their income on a grand lifestyle. But they have no forethought about their loan commitments and income instability. "Savings" accounts are passe to them. So when the fires burn, they will be forced to sell their shiney possessions on the front lawn. This is a problem for people who try to sell *new* goods since they will have to compete with low, low prices on slightly used, luxury goods that must be sold to pay bills or loans. Bancruptcies will release a flood of very nice second hand goods on the market ( cars, trucks, homes, boats, etc ) . Those who have waited will of course buy the slightly used goods.

Another 'bloody' day in equities, but gold is firmer. Gold got trashed at the open of the New York market on Friday. If this happens again it is an indication of US manipulation, IMO. The harder they beat on Gold the more people will watch and see its resilience. If they can't keep Gold going down at the same rate as equity markets then you will see more interest.

My dealer said a number of times that local investors only seem to buy when the price is rising. So it seems that we will have to wait until it is OBVIOUS that Gold is going up before Mr. 'Easily Frightened' commits. The post ( s ) on Friday regarding 34,000+ oz drawdowns in COMEX warehouse stock two days in a row is, to my thinking, a VERY potent sign. This is equivalent to a 18% or so drop in warehouse gold stocks in 2 days. VERY INTERESTING!

What are these people afraid of? They are withdrawing 1.5+ tonnes of Gold bullion per day. Gold bullion stock on Friday stood at approx 350,000 oz in COMEX warehouses. Let's keep an eye on that situation. Either someone is withdrawing their Gold from the market OR someone is buying and withdrwing it from the market. Why withdraw it from a very well secured environment like this warehouse unless you don't trust being able to get at it, eh?

Finall thought ( s ) : We should understand that often powers perform damage control so their friends can escape and leave all the pawns to get the wipe out. There is no intention to preserve the system or protect the vast majority of the markets' participants. They know that they can only do so much before the 'fit hits the shan'.

The degree and length of time of Gold's drubbing will be *the* indicator of just how bad the coming crunch will be. The harder and longer they fight gold's rise will indicate the intensity of the fire storm to come. My guess is that they will do their uttemost to hold this line ( in the US ) until the latest sale of Bonds ( Tuesday ) is complete. After that its a matter of getting all their friends under cover ( who's buying all that gold? ) . There is a window of opportunity here. It will close very quickly.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:34 - ID#7568)

It was posted here that on CNBC someone said that our exports to Asia are only 10% of our total exports. This is wrong. Exports to Asia account for approximately 30% of our total exports.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:34 - ID#30116)
Going to watch the 'fun and games' at the open... BBL

Lucky Strike
(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:37 - ID#320158)
and the Nuggets
Todays Offering ( To the tune of "Fools Rush In" ) :

Fools rush in
Where angels fear to tread,
They buy gold 'cause it's cheap, they think,
It falls some more instead.

Fools rush in
Where wise men never go,
For wise men don't buy gold just 'cause
"It's never been this low".

But I just cannot help but buy,
Though I may never win,
Just open up your vaults and let
This fool rush in.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:39 - ID#31868)
Talkinghead guest analyst says he thinks gold is no longer the safe haven it used to be.

REMEMBER - this is a US sentiment in the media at this point. It is not a reflection of the people and what they are going to do.

The west is stupid. The east is not. The reports on the festivals and such from India should tell you something. GOLD IS IN THEIR DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS AS THAT WHICH IS GOOD.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:42 - ID#31868)
TUNE INTO CNBC and wait a few minutes. The GOLD SECTOR will be analyzed by an "expert" team.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:50 - ID#402309)
As of 09:45 AM the DOW is down -73.43 at 7,641.98 ... NASDAQ is down -20.33 at 1,650.92 ... S&P 500 is down -9.05 at 941.64 ... NYSE is Unchanged at 495.77 ... AMEX is Unchanged at 701.18 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:53 - ID#364147)
@ The calm before the STORM
Time for seakayaking and the hunt for Fin whales...Dow down 73

The Wichita Lineman
(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:58 - ID#374200)
@ Bart Kitner
Bart or System Manager, the time beside the forum posts has not been changed to allow for the 'fall back' of an hour, take a look.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 10:58 - ID#32078)
dark suckers
AJT.. Reference your comments on the 'dark suckers'. This is to notify you that you are in noncompliance with your signed agreement on file not to discuss this top secret project and will be reported to the Department of Dark in the unlit basement of the Pentagon.

Another little known fact ( recently declassified ) is recognized by all pilots and astronauts who fly at higher altitude. As you go above 50,000 feet, the blue sky gets much darker. This is due to the residual effect of black holes emitting darkness into space and forcing light back into stars. This fact, now released, with cause shockwaves throughout the astrology community and may upset some of the Kitco posters.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:01 - ID#286410)
DBC Market Ticker
Prudential are bullish on Gold, cites strong demand.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:04 - ID#30116)
Just for referencen purposes, Dow Jones -30 Industrials.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:10 - ID#32078)
serious this time
CNBC offered the expert opinion of Mr Morrison of Prudential Securities who stated that as a PM expert he was not 'as bearish' as most others he knew ( meaning that his compatriots in NY are generally bearish on metals ) . He gave four reasons, which test my memory:

1. There was a limited supply of gold coming from the CB's who are selling or may be selling. Many, such as Canada, Belgium, Austria, and Australia have already sold.
2. Forward selling is now or will soon be uneconomical due to the low price, below production cost.
3. Production is down and decreasing.
4. He sees consolidation with many mines absorbing others. He mentioned that Placer had made an offer for Bema.

He appeared to be reasonable in his logic, but XAU is down anyway. Gold is up.

Another talking head expressed his dismay that gold could plunge thru 300.

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:12 - ID#42953)
Lyle Gramley
About a week ago, ex Fed Governor Lyle gramley opined that AG would soon begin an aggressive tightening campaign unless the stock market fell 10-15%. And low and behold the stock market finally got hit!

The powers that be are not all unhappy about this decline, but do not want it to get out of hand. My guess is that serious efforts to support the market will not be forthcoming unless and until we get close to Dow 7200. Only time will tell how successful these support operations will be.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:14 - ID#20135)
Is it just me or is not updating their gold quote feed again??? indu works, xau.x works .... note gold was rising when it stopped. ????

TPher (AKA John)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:25 - ID#37295)
A.Goose - your right about Quote.Com's GC97Z not updating. Last update was at 9:20 EST. The silver quote is down also.

Looked at Battle Mountain Gold. The upside gap of 9/24 to 9/25 has been filled ( is that the correct terminology? ) . From what I've read here, that would be a good sign. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:38 - ID#32078)
HK rates
To all: With the battle raging in HK, the discount rate is set at 6.25% for banks borrowing from the central authority. Those borrowing at the low rate and loaning to speculators 'will be punished' says the main bank, and no longer allowed to borrow. Since the overnight rate jumped as high as 300%, it will be expensive to speculate unless the HK dollar is released from the 7.80 HK$ per US$. Large speculators would go elsewhere, such as the US market to borrow.

Question. The US long bond rate has dropped to and rebounded several times from a low of 6.25% and is now, this morning once again at 6.25%. Could this be a floor? Meaning that rates won't be going any lower than they are now?

Any experts out there?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:40 - ID#20135)
TPher ( AKA John ) :
I just heard cnbc say they got a flash that energy futures trading was suspended until futher notice ... then they immediately broke for a commerical. Somethings up. Hope its gold.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:45 - ID#20135)
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard that Soros was selling our treasurers . Heard CNBC futures pit report.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:47 - ID#31868)
TO ALL: I hope none of you have stock in Oxford Health Care. One of, if not the largest, healthcare companies - OXHP Down-33 points roughly 50% It has recently been touted by several firms as a solid buy.

An ill wind blows across the land.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:57 - ID#267246)
I believe this has not yet been mentioned: the Swiss have a vested interest in discouraging a "scared money" flow into the Swissie. They run an orderly ship.
Given the Euro ( will it?/won't it, whose in/whose out, hard?/soft? ) and the 2K "problem" ( will EVERY bank be ready?/ will EVERY system function with NO errors? ) one can only ponder when Darla Moore's perspicacious remark will take hold. Asked about investments to "make money" she commented that, "At this point in time, we are not in the business of creating wealth, we are in the business of PRESERVING wealth." In today's market, this represents radical thinking. Can ANYBODY remember when folks happily ( ? ) accepted the 5% return that was mandated by US Federal law?

A word of thanks to your insightful posts, your remarkable "hot links", and, most particularly, for the opportunity to warm chilled hands before the cheerful fire of like opinions!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 11:59 - ID#31868)
I see only four exchanges on the planet in the black. All the rest in the red.

I will wager that advertising firms are scrambling to pull ads that recommend their heavy favorites that are dropping rocks before they air.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:04 - ID#31868)
Dianne: Greetings. A great deal has been written for some length of time now about how the Swiss will cease to accept various new anything into their market/country.

In addition, that is one of the reasons the Swiss have been held up to the "light" as there are those that wish to discredit the Swiss for one reason or another.

Just more of the yada, yada, yada from the talkinghead/propaganda mochine.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:05 - ID#20135)
I know I am only a goose, but would someone explain to me what is going on with energy futures and gold trading at this moment. George could you find out.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:06 - ID#2082)
@ Bobby Bonilla
Hey Big Bob, could you drive up to the Cape ( Breton ) and check on Ted for me. I haven't heard a good morning call from him yet...DOH! And bring your buddy Jose Mesa with you. He needs a vacation to get his mind off a few things...

Gold up 290 check the post??

Strad Master
(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:09 - ID#250297)
Let's get together!
CHEROKEE: If you're going to be in the LA area, please give me a call. E-mail me before you come. OK?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:10 - ID#20135)
Do you know while they suspended energy futures trading?? Is gold trading or is the feed bad just for that commodity.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:10 - ID#2082)
Oh...and bring your bat...the one you smacked a dinger with last night...h M! Louisville for the slugger

gold still up 290

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:16 - ID#215208)
Do you believe this?
I was informed trading on the NYMEX ( and COMEX ) has been suspended indefinitely because of problems with the phone system.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:19 - ID#7568)

Perhaps someone is trying out this technique in a not so important market which is under little duress. I'll bet Fidelity is watching with interest to see how this pans out.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:19 - ID#348286)
@Out There
Dow down 145 , Nasdaq down 46. Gold up 1.60 .
If this continues, Asia will get clobbered tonight..... :- ) )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:22 - ID#20135)
Thanks DJ. Same thing for energy futures???

I am wonering if this is the turn around or am I chasing clouds again. Dollar under pressure, rumors of 30 bond sales, Dow tanking, ... I am sorry but this crazy goose ( heavy into gold already ) is eager to buy more.

Any info on the status of these developments would be much appreciated.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:22 - ID#7568)

A friend of my brothers who works in Istanbul report this morning that huge quantities of Asian money are flowing through. The panic is begining to spread. People want out and they don't care where. They should.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:23 - ID#320102)
comment from Avid Trader Chat:
"the bull is now pronounced dead and deceased and we have a new trend"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:26 - ID#30116)
Dow down 169.94

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:28 - ID#30116)
@some quotes
GGO 34 3/4
ABX 20 15/16
SWC 19 3/4
HM 12 3/4
PDG 15 3/4

All at 11:25 EST

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:28 - ID#285233)
No problem
Stay calm!! - One of these Halloween days gold will rise up. None of the CBs will be able to keep it down. Just use this opportunity to add to your Au porfolios. These bastards are giving you a gift. Gold for under $80 pre '73 $$$.!!! Don't listen to the BS that our bonds are experiencing "flight to safety/quality". When the game is over we will see if paper backed by debt is more valuable than gold.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:30 - ID#215208)
D.A. - One can hypothesize either that heavy trading brought their phone system down, or that they need to do a little trading behind the scenes without it being visible to the outside world. The conspiracy option makes a better novel.

A.Goose - Sorry, I have no energy.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:30 - ID#224149)
Mooney-Welcome back!!! Good you found some space as LGB should use another 5 megs of Barts hard-drive tonight.Hope everything is well.Happy Trails

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:30 - ID#348286)
D.A.: Interesting. The question is will the last haven of choice be USD/Paper, or will it be commodities? Watch the Bonds.....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:33 - ID#255151)

D.A.--If the shutdown is indeed a ploy, it is a very risky one. The phone system malfunction explanation is either the truth, or a VERY desparate move. I really have no clue as to which. Just count me as one who is content to be heavily into the long side of the Silver play.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:33 - ID#386276)
Heres the update of MSCI
Morgan Stanley World Index

Couldn't resist on loading up on SPX put option tonight

The dow has just broken MAJOR support and is beginning to engage full throttle.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:33 - ID#401237)
Time to buy?
From the for what it is worth dept., I think things are starting to go our way.
1 ) Dollar weakening
2 ) Europe falling more
3 ) Oil is up
4 ) Gold a little better 312+
5 ) Bonds not as strong
6 ) Investors buying Euro dollars and Treasuries
for more liquidity
7 ) England not in Euro deal for several yrs.
8 ) This will affect Gold
9 ) I was told over the weekend by one in the
field that oil and gas are going up, they can't
get any meintenance Rigs. Evidently all
Rigs are in use.
10 ) CRB is up 243+
11 ) Margins are being called.
12 ) 24:3 market breadth

I have been here before, 1973
Good time to average in for long positions.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:33 - ID#30116)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:35 - ID#255151)

D.A.--If the shutdown is indeed a ploy, it is a very risky one. The phone system malfunction explanation is either the truth, or a VERY desparate move. I really have no clue as to which. Just count me as one who is content to be heavily into the long side of the Silver play.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:36 - ID#348397)
buy what highrise???
Buy gold, gold stox, dow stox ??? Which gold stox to buy here ( Ithink this is what you refer to )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:37 - ID#30116)
It seems that 'someone' is trying to push the indexes higher with stock index futures. They don't seem to be having much luck,....yet. Masters of the universe, anyone???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:42 - ID#402309)
...As of 11:35 AM the DOW is down -167.73 at 7,547.68 ... NASDAQ is down -49.31 at 1,601.61 ... S&P 500 is down -17.54 at 924.10 ... NYSE is down -9.09 at 486.68 ... AMEX is down -12.34 at 688.84 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:44 - ID#286410)
Brazil -863 ( -7.48% )
Mexico -318.490 ( -6.47& )
Venezuela -596.60 ( -5.79% )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:45 - ID#20135)
Well, gold quotes working again. Its trying to rally ... let us see what it does today.

Crystal Ball
(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:48 - ID#287367)
(Go Gold!)
A man with a winking problem is applying for a position as a sales representative for a large firm. The interviewer looks over his papers and says, "This is phenomenal. You've graduated from the best schools; your recommendations are wonderful, and your experience is unparalleled. Normally, we'd hire you without a second thought. However, a sales representative has a highly visible position, and we're afraid that your constant winking will scare off potential customers. I'm sorry....we can't hire you."
"But wait," he said. "If I take two aspirin, I'll stop winking!"
"Really? Great! Show me!"
So the applicant reaches into his jacket pocket and begins pulling out all sorts of condoms: red condoms, blue condoms, ribbed condoms, flavored condoms; finally, at the bottom, he finds a packet of aspirin. He tears it open, swallows the pills, and stops winking.
"Well," said the interviewer, "that's all well and good, but thi

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:49 - ID#30116)
Russell two thousand taking about 2 1/2 % hit today. So much for 'small cap' safety. Nasdaq off about ~3%.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:49 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:50 - ID#401237)
In 6 days the Nasdaq has lost the equivalent of 500 dow points. CNBC

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:53 - ID#57232)
D.A.: What is your impression of the HKong situation? Are the hedge funds back on the attack with $1 trillion in funds? Interesting that China is up but HK is down.
What really worries me is that the Hedge fund attack on HK may mean that the "smart" money is already in a safe place -- otherwise why aren't the Hedge fund operators worried about bringing down the worlds markets?
Perhaps "they" have enough gold bullion now. Comments?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:56 - ID#347332)
TO Crystal Ball

but what? memo cut off. try again.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:58 - ID#348397)
excuse me please
Hey gold, move your ARSE ALREADY FOR GODS SAKE

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:59 - ID#365216)
to Crystal Ball
please repost your joke; the last part was cut off and you
got me curious. Down with the School of the Americas in
Ft. Benning.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 12:59 - ID#285233)
Red Monday???
Red Monday Status: Brazil -8%,SAfrica -6.6%,Mexico -6%, Venez -6%, Russia -6%, Findland -6%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:00 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:01 - ID#255151)

Panda--The "dipsters" have said they will hold on and even buy on declines. Looks like we'll find out if they have the nerve to back that up with action. You might say their "mettle" is being tested!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:01 - ID#2082)
Goose - Energy is NYMEX. I did not know of any closures. Have not traded today and I don't want to bug my broker although his mood is probably O.K. because the Bears did not play yesterday.

Poorboys - Only 5 megs?? More like 15-20. But you must remember he works all day with no time to post...NOT! He will probably post from his bosses uncle's friend's daughter's computer tonite...we need more horses back sides...

Mooney - Welcome back! Where ya' been?? I have only a bachelors w/ major in margaritas and minor in seduction ;- ) work

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:04 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:06 - ID#258224)
@...if it matters
Britain to back-off ECU in 1999. Need time to think until election 2002. Swiss Min. Fin. back-off on proposed gold sale. Swiss need govt OK and people referendum OK in 1999.


Bob A
(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:06 - ID#18388)
Looks like the BGO boys cut a lousy deal, stk down 10.5%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:07 - ID#215208)
Phones now OK?
All - NYMEX now trading again.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:09 - ID#26793)
Brazil down 8.11%, Mexico and Venezuela down 6%+ each

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:11 - ID#347332)
To Bob A:
Take a look @ Placer Dome. Not doing too good either.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:12 - ID#7568)

I don't have any good info on who is doing what in HK but I don't really think it matters at this point. It looks like the whole house is coming down. As was just recently posted here the South American markets are in freefall. There are just too many markets in the sychronized swim.

Ultimately I expect that the HK dollar will simply disappear. It will be folded into the Chinese currency. This will allow the face saving act to occur and will also cost nothing in terms of reserves to defend the currency. In fact it will make money for the Chinese CB because of the higher interest being charged on loan money. If this was an independent country where the capital markets could freeze them out after a cut and run move such as this I would agree that being short the HK dollar would be a good play. However, in this case I think the Chinese government will just do as they please. This does not include handing over their hard currency reserves to speculators.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:16 - ID#7568)

Your post of the declines in the South American markets is telling. The phones are starting to ring pulling money out of the submerging market funds. I've been watching this action to see if the conflagration was going to get more fuel. It has. We couldn't wait for the afternoon to add to our short S&P position. On the last rally we added a few more logs.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:21 - ID#424345)
The crises control teams are in the process of earning their pay this week. The essence of their problem at this juncture is living in a global village.

Declines in the Dow of the last few days would not be a problem at all if it were in normal times. It simply would be a signal to *prudent* investors that it was time to buy *good values* on another dip.

The issue is whether the panic that seems to be deepening in the aisian corner of the global neighbourhood will spread to wall street. Face it, the dippers have been getting no joy in the last few months. Their *patience* has not been rewarded this time.

How the man in the street will react to news of their ( global ) neighbours being decimated in the markets in the face of a falling Dow must be fascinating the crises managers at this time. Particularly, when the damage in north america is compounded by asian sales of north american securities to meet margin calls and to otherwise repair damage caused by panics in other exchanges.

However, it seems they face deeper problems. The swiss announcement last week smacked of desperation tactics. Trying to hammer gold on the basis of a proposal facing certain defeat when it is subject to ratification two years from now strikes me as scratching the bottom of the barrel.

However mortifying spreading panic in the exchanges may be to the crises managers I suspect that thought is being overshadowed by an even greater terror - a BUYING panic in gold.

However, they still have reserves in place. An european CB has been selling lately ( most likely France IMVHO ) and have yet to make an announcement. If gold shows signs of untoward life in the next week or so, expect another announcement. The crises managers NEED gold to be in a down trend for the next few weeks. The last thing they want is problems from a barbaric relic.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:21 - ID#424231)
D.A. send me you email address

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:22 - ID#424231)
D.A. send me you email address

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:25 - ID#386276)
Have just averaged into some more gold calls and they weren't cheap up 100% on Friday's price April360's.
Also averaged into some more spx put options Dec700's & Dec850's and the price on them was up heaps on Friday's price.
Seems like risk is starting to be factored into this house of cards.
Both of these positions have jumped 100% since Friday.
Now if they can only keep going in that same direction.

If we have two more serious down days globaly, like the last few, I would expect that the market will make or break on the third day.

A break being a outright crash.

The wave of fear is increasing as many people hear the great sucking sound of the water being drawn out, just before it is thrown back at them.

I believe that this Tsunami is already here on our shores.
And will fall with a horrific crash in approx 3 days time.

If the dow crashes in one day and they manage to send gold down, way down. I will be in boots and all.
IMHO ( :-}}}}}}

Ka............. Ching..........

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:27 - ID#20135)
Hey, Look at those bonds. By golly someone must be seeling them. Where are they going to move their money? Back home? .... gold?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:37 - ID#7568)

Here I be.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:40 - ID#175200)
ALL: Does anywhone here have an idea of the average gold production cost ( per ounce ) for the current year.

Thanks in advance.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:40 - ID#257114)
Steady, would you be comfortable buying more CAU at this level? It seems awfully cheap. But I do know that when things look cheap and I act on it,
suddenly it gets cheaper. What's your take?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:41 - ID#215208)
OK - Today's London afternoon fixes confirm both gold and platinum have broken thru the bottom of the previous channels. Silver recovered to the point that the London closing shows it right at the channel bottom. Palladium strongly resisting the trend, and holding well within the channel.

The question is, have the trends and channels really changed, or is this just a transient phenomenon I should ignore. Time will tell, I guess. At least with platinum, I would think the drop is irrational. Looks to me like a good opportunity to go long.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:49 - ID#255151)
Ringside @ Kitco

This market situation might just be a little rain on the US-China State Summit. No one has more disdain for the "Hollywood Left" than I do. However, in the new bipartisan spirit at this forum, I must applaud them for calling a spade a spade. Richard Gere and his friends DARE to point out such unpleasant facts as: Tibet, the jailing of dissidents, and the gulag system that exists in The People's Republic of China. Is anyone else of the opinion that China will follow the same path as Malaysia, Thailand, S. Korea, et al?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:51 - ID#246224)
Good post in your 11:57. Keep em coming.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:56 - ID#7568)

The last few times we have had mini corrections in the stock market we have turned on a dime at down 10%. This would project a Dow bottom at 7470. If we fall below this number then the clever folks who watch this sort of thing will think this time something is different and the real fun will begin. I am hoping that this time is different now that we are short a fairly substantial load of S&P's. One interesting scenario would be to have the market close around 7500. The commentators could then go on about this being a normal healthy 10% correction and everyone would go to sleep feeling nervous but confident that the storm was passing. Unfortunately if we close down 175 points the Asian markets are hardly going to take this as a sign of confidence. They will in likelyhood continue their plunging. When this reverberates one more spin around the globe the big kahuna will be here. 100 S&P points is not out of the question on Tuesday. Could be that LGB is going to be shinin' some shoes.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:58 - ID#251147)
George Cole;\

What do you think of the gold shares v. gold?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 13:59 - ID#387247)
DOW DOWN 200 !!!!!!
Dow just touched down 205 for the day.....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:02 - ID#364147)
@ the lonely cry of the loon
Such a beautiful sound....looks like we are having a mild sell-off on the Dow....Ditto on the XAU ( ( DOOOOOH ) ...hi Nailz!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:03 - ID#194311)
DA...psyche out!!!
No amount of technical analysis will give you the end result to this I was explaining to LGB last night. This is it, systemic failure, phones failing, computers crashing, billions lost in seconds, where will it stop?
Only at rock bottom, bedrock that the illusion is built on...GOLD...physical not psychological that is.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:04 - ID#232387)
Gold shares are still papaer! in 87 they went down dramatically! look it up.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:05 - ID#37295)
DJ - I posted a comment either last friday evening or early saturday morning about gold putting in the head of an inverted head and shoulder formation with the July 7th low being the left shoulder. All this was based upon my observation of the monthly gold chart at the Privateer site ( ) .

Now I look at your channel chart and, maybe its just me, but I see the same head and shoulder formation ( you really have to look ) . Am I dreaming? Seeing what I believe? Your comments ( or anybody else's ) would be appreciated.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:09 - ID#364147)
@ Numbers
D.A. says 7470 is critical # for Dow....A while back Oldman said a close below 7580 is a SELL signal...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:10 - ID#246224)
@Donald - One for the hopper.
Donald - could you post the COMEX warehouse stocks movement at the end of the day sometime? Thanks.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:13 - ID#347457)
Dow just broke 7500
Does not look like it's stopping either

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:13 - ID#42953)
selling climax?
Today's action in the gold shares sure looks like a selling climax. We could get a strong final hour rebound.

The last hour also will be crucial for the overall market. If we don't rally sharply, the Dow probably will be flirting with 7200 by week's end.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:15 - ID#285233)
Al- CAU looks very attractive at these levels. I am adding to DURAN DEEP ( DURBY ) AND RANDGOLD ( RANGY ) , both SA shares and on NASDAQ. Also, take a look at Silver Standard, it is a steal at these levels.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:17 - ID#261269)
7470 on the dow just got taken out

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:18 - ID#347457)
@Ted critical numbers for Dow
Ted, if 7470 is critical, Dow just crossed it. 7468 is the lates ( at this point probably lower than that )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:18 - ID#251306)
Question for DA, Cole and anyone else.

If the banks are short the gold mrkts, do they have to close out their short positions to book the gain? Are their short positions a liquid asset?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:19 - ID#251213)
George Cole

Don Wolanchuck is looking for 7200 also

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:19 - ID#348169)
All - Please don't waste time reading this until the markets close. Hot Time in the old towne tonight, eh wot?
Poor Boys and EB - Thank-You. All A-OK. Had some netscape problems a while back and used it as my lame excuse to take some time off the net and concentrate on earning some money for Mooney! Both in my 24 hour a day job - real estate - and in commodities. Both working out well thank-you. Since re-activating my ( miniscule by the standards of many here at Kitco ) commodity trading account in Aug. I have made six consequtive winning trades, and, as anyone who plays commodities knows, that is not the same thing as picking six winning stocks in the perpetual bull! Stuck in my seventh trade ( White Gold - March Cotton ) at the moment showing a slight loss and so am biting at the bit as I want to re-enter Silver ( but not until Cotton takes out my stop or gives gives me an ego boasting seven in a row.
On other matters, I had noticed LGB's peculiar propensity for ponderous and presumptuous, predominantly pre-eminate pontifical and pugnacious pomposity. Could it be that he suffers from a slight touch of the pumpkinification disease as so many others, ( as so correctly pointed out by the W. Lineman last night ) , on this page? NO offense intended LGB! :- )

All - Just back with my first official post at 10:10 ID# 348169 ( Bart's time, not mine ) and almost immediately the HEP ( help? ) one, ( you know the guy who is so smart that he has a PHD, ( permanently helpless dork? ) , but can't seem to remember to take his daily prescriptions ) , posts using my name and e-mail address, ( I thought this was illegal? ) , at 12:03 ID#350108. This was an obvious false post emanating from the PHD ( perpetually horrible delilinquent? ) , who never grew up and loves to bother those here with his inane games and mental health hang-ups. As he used MY name and MY e-mail address I shall forthwith ask Bart to remove that particular piece of cat litter.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:22 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Had a few minutes to drop in. Looks like my 920 on the Dec S&P came true today, and the 'perhaps lower'. Also looks like Dec gold above 313 might make a little run to 316 potentially. BUT, given its poor showing again like Friday before it crashed, you might want to consider being real careful! You all enjoy. BBL.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:23 - ID#371247)
Joke of the Morn
Given the sorry state of the markets, perhaps a joke would be a nice breather.

Father O'Grady was saying his goodbye's to the parishioners
after his Sunday morning service as he always does when
Mary Clancey came up to him in tears.

"What's bothering you so, dear?" inquired Farther O'Grady.

"Oh, father, I've got terrible news." Replied Mary.

"Well what is it, Mary?"

"Well, my husband, passed away last night, Father."

"Oh, Mary" said the father, "that's terrible. Tell me Mary, did he
have any last requests?"

"Well, yes he did father," replied Mary.

"What did he ask, Mary?"

Mary replied, "He said, 'Please, Mary, put down the gun...'"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:26 - ID#26793)
Brazil down 1536 ( 13.3% ) , Mexico down 330 ( 6.71% ) , Venezuela down 860 ( 8.34% )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:28 - ID#217268)
Washington Confluence
At the same time and place this week in Washington, D.C. are: President Clinton meeting the president of China, A.G.'s testimony to the JEC, executive branch "fast track" coming to a head ( vote?? ) , stock market turmoil, and gold price being DRIVEN down. Can anyone add to the list ? nomercy can you help ?

Watching the financial markets carefully Monday and Tuesday, prior to A.G.'s testimony for "insiders" taking positions.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:29 - ID#285233)
get ready
We are 76 point before trading suspension.DJI-273, NASDAQ-86!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:30 - ID#390275)
There is something very fishy about the Swiss announcement to sell gold. Who in their right mind would make an announcement that would drop the price of something that they wish to sell? The Swiss are astute traders.
Would they cheapen the price of something they wish to sell in the future? Something coming out of Switzerland smells rotten.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:30 - ID#386276)
Just spoke with my broker about the gold calls that I'm trying to get.
Last at on Friday 50c, - 2hrs ago 100c, - now 120c.
So I told him to go at market.
Probably a foolish move. Probably scam me for 140c.
Not so I think.
The huge rise in premium is all risk factored and tells me that they don't want to sell risk at the moment.
The expotential increase in such a short time say that we are ready to turn and bolt for the door.
The way that the market makers are unwilling to sell risk cheap anymore gives a clear indication of their level of fear.
They are starting to act like spooked cattle.

I think that maybe, just maybe gold has truly bottomed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:30 - ID#194311)
Ringside....Body Blows
Canada -5%, Brazil -15%, Mexico -8%...nose bloodied
Gold swaggering but holding up well after below the belts

Crystal Ball
(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:31 - ID#287367)
Buy this, Dippies !!
Dow down 272 @ 7442; S&P 500 down 33; NASDAQ down 85 !! But...
XAU down 9 @ 88.26; SSRIF down 3/8 @ 3 15/16; PDG down 1 11/16 @ 15 1/8
PGU down 11/16 @ 4 3/16; HM down 7/16 @ 12 3/4; ABX down 1 1/4 @ 20 5/16

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:32 - ID#269409)
@ Humilty Central
Wow.... OK I gotta give Puetz his due. It's no "crash" yet and it has nothing to do with the Moon ( more like Aisian meltdown and typical Fall/October downer ) but DAMN that WAS a good call yesterday calling today "Black Monday" and buying Puts on S&P.

I'm glad I'm not in Equities INCLUDING Gold MIning Stocks. Interesting that Bullion is showing some minor strength today. Hmmmm, I don;;t think that shoeploish will be seeing daylight Puetz, but I think we'll be a LOT lower by weeks end than we were Friday.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:33 - ID#252132)
@ The Line Is Holding:
On Newmont Mining the WEEKLY support line going back to late April has so far held at 37 3/4!!!! Unless this is broken, the Weekly Chart says that Newmont Mining is still in its BULL trend which goes back to this April, l997 date!!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:33 - ID#364147)
@ Tort and crashin Dow
Good one Tort---was just getting ready to slit my wrists but now I feel alright....Mooney: Welcome ( ?? ) back.....did you sell my house yet?? ( it's on MLS ) ..EB: please have the decency to allow me a sufficent mourning period.....they shoulda kept Mesa in jail!!...Nasdaq down 85.01 ( OUCH! )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:34 - ID#347332)
TO Tortfeasor ;
not bad.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:35 - ID#402309)
...As of 01:29 PM the DOW is down -261.29 at 7,454.12 ... NASDAQ is down -72.36 at 1,578.56 ... S&P 500 is down -24.34 at 917.30 ... NYSE is down -12.93 at 482.84 ... AMEX is down -22.49 at 678.69 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:35 - ID#20135)
I know I am starting to be a pest, but gold doesn't seem to be trading again. ( ) . Another phone problem, or are the sending out for bullion?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:37 - ID#241277)
Chinese and Hong Kong
JTF and DA: The Chinese are, in my opinion, very much involved in the devaluation of the Hong Kong dollar and markets. ANOTHER points to this in the lastest Red Baron LBMA expose Part 8.....I have always wondered what agenda the Chinese are marching to....Supose they intentionally want to wage economic warfare against the US and Britain ( historical thorns over Hong Kong ) ...they might first inflate the Hong Kong market, then fleece the sheep, they orchestrate a market crash, depressing real estate and other prices ( vintage Nathan Rothschild as he did in brilliant moves depressing the London markets in previous centuries and during Napoleonic wars ) ....the outcome of a market calamity in Hong Kong washes over to Japan; the Japanese financial/banking sector goes into a talespin....putting increased pressure on the Japanese to unload some of their excess US treasuries ( as the Japanese PM alluded to recently as a possible option ) , thus exploding confidence in the US dollar and a bursting of the US stock market bubble.

Or is my intuition all wrong. If I were a master game theorist, which I believe the Chinese are...I might consider such a possible strategem against my enemies....after all the Chinese don't really need the Americans any more...they have a selfsustaining economy with 1 billion consumers....who cares about 300 million Americans or the same number of Europeans...


BTW...where is ANOTHER when you need him?!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:38 - ID#269409)
Mining stocks
You think the DOW is bad! Look where some of the Prime Gold & Silver mining stocks are at the moment. SSC off 6.7%, SSRIF off 8.7%, ABX off 6.7%, PDG off 10.4%, HM off 3.8%. How much lower can they go?????

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:38 - ID#170235)
The bear market in stocks has been confirmed. DJIA has decisively broken below 7500-7600 support. I'm am now in a maximum bearish position. Greatest crash of all time has started. It's very possible that the big circuit breaker at DJIA -350 will kick in soon. Watch what happens when the bulls get trapped into the market and can't get out.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:39 - ID#252132)
@ One More Thing:
If Newmont Mining holds at the Weekly support, this is a GREAT buying opportunity. IMHO. : )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:39 - ID#246224)
@The Global Bubble Burst
My guestamate is that Dow closes at about 7350 today. This will ring their chimes. All markets will spiral down for the rest of the week. What will stop it? They have no powder. AG will only release enough to keep major brokerages and banks from foundering, but not to support this market in any way. He doesn't want it supported at this or anywhere remotely near this level. Placing bets on the floor. My guess is 4500 for the short term.

Liquidity crisis to follow. This will take months and years to unfold.

What money is left will thrash the economies and markets of this world both up and down. Emotional exhaustion will paralyze participants. No one will trust anyone. This will be priced in to all markets. One year from now ( maybe less ) being called a "financial consultant" will be a term of derision.

What we have here is not a DOW bubble, but an entire world bubble. A wad of bubbles so closely connected that all of them will fail one after the other. We haven't ever seen this before ( possibly 1929 ) . This is not a localized situation. American 'optimism' ( read this 'MANIA' ) . infected the entire world. And now there is no place to run or hide from this "correction". Money will find gold and silver soon. When it does than expect this to produce an incredible revolution in peoples' attitudes and actions. This will further exacerbate the chaos and volitility we have seen so far. Right now we are seeing a fairly orderly sell off. When Au/Ag is ignited then we will see "interesting times".

America will become the focus of anger, resentment and hatrid through out the world. This will so change attitudes about our currency that it will be dethroned as the world reserve currency.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:39 - ID#403267)
Glad I sold last week and sorry I didn't get those puts! Yahoo quotes out of service for me, anyone else?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:39 - ID#347332)
To steady ;
Computers shutting down automatically? What? Please explain.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:41 - ID#386276)
Have a look at the selling presure.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:41 - ID#269409)
I beg to differ Puetz. Big correction, no crash coming. Economy is too strong. I say we bounce off a 10% to 12% correction and stop there. Is your downside still 5750?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:42 - ID#252132)
@ Again:
Please notice that I said "IF" Newmont Mining hold that support line.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:44 - ID#20746)
RCA (1925-1929) & MICROSOFT (1993-1997)
Deja Vu All Over Again?! From 1929 to 1932 RCA lost 97% of its market value. In the 1920s RCA was the #1 high-flying tech stock of the day:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:45 - ID#57232)
@Work - impressive !
LGB: I may have some gold/silver equities, but I do have 2/3 of my liquid assets ready for the "whites of their eyes". May not be so much longer! Even some "talking heads" talking about gold stocks. After the crisis is over, and the dollar stabilizes, our White Night may feel like loosening up on gold, and we may have our turn --- only need a few percent of that "flight to safety". Peutz is not such a bad guy after all, is he? Even if you don't understand them, I wouldn't throw the Astrologers out with the bath water!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:45 - ID#31868)
LGB: My opinion is that the mining sector has already had it's depression. What you are seeing is the last tiny bit, plus people selling who need to meet other obligations.

Then all of these stocks will make for solid investments from the people looking for markets which are going to grow - the metals and natural resources.

The Asian tigers will sit at the feet of the Dragon, the Princess of India adorns herself with gold and looks to the dragon.

The land of the rising sun is now more of an island than she would care to be, caught between the Eagle and the Dragon.

CNBC talks as if everything is okay, 10s of billions have been wiped out today.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:46 - ID#33180)
Byron; 37 1/4 now, real-time. Did that break the low?

Bob A
(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:46 - ID#18388)
to Puetz
Do you like gold now?

2, a long-time contrarian (since Dow 3400)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:47 - ID#194225)
Yabba dabba doo Wokka wokka wokka I'm tellin' ya, I knew it was all gonna come tumblin' down soonah owah laita. Puetz:"...greatest crash of all time." If so, there's a lot more fun ahead folks. Well, at least we'll have the solace of the Kitco group.

SO who is going to fare the best in the next three years? Land owners? Renters? Government workers? My guess: People with faith, flexibility, a sense of humor, and generosity of spirit.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:47 - ID#320102)
gold down?
CNBC just said "gold is down today". Whats going on? Kitco's quote 311.70 +2.20 hasn't changed recently.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:48 - ID#347332)
TO Allen ( USA ) ;
please get a grip on yourself. Relax. Read a few jokes here @ kitco.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:49 - ID#20135)
Look at the daily chart for HM versus the other gold xau stocks. I believe HM is the least hedged company and ABX the most ... it may be showing. ??? good sign ??? Anyone know why quotes stopped on for gold again ( for indu ect. still working ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:49 - ID#170235)
The DJIA may rally 1 day this week. But, for the most part, it will be a crash week. The height of the crash will be toward the end of the week. Beware of Halloween on Wall Street.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:49 - ID#194311)
Chinese Power Play
Chinese market up 5% over night.
D.A....i'm with you the HK dollar gets folded in mainland problem...first the territory, then the money.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:50 - ID#319269)
vronsky: I got your email, I didn't know it was wrong to have a link to your site, my apology, I will remove it.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:52 - ID#20135)
lurker :
CNBC does not give the news, they have the job of making the investing public stay invested. Gold is up over yesterday's close. I wish was giving their feed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:53 - ID#252132)
@ Maybe:
Elf: It is a low for the day, but the question remains if the Weekly support line is broken. I am only "eyeballing" my Newmont Weekly chart so one has to get a little lead way to the numbers. How much lead way, only the elves know. : )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:55 - ID#319269)
does anyone know how to get hold of vronsky, he wants to talk to me about a link to his page, he doesn't sound happy and I am worried, I am new here

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:55 - ID#57232)
Allen ( @USA ) : I dont' know if the bubble is bursting, but all of a sudden it looks like we will no longer have South America as a strong trading partner. ( re: Banco Santander down 10% -- this is the South American equivalent of Hong Kong Shangahai Bank ) . Now not just 1/3 of the world economy is affected, but like South America also! What is really puzzling is that often in the past in such situations, the "flight to safety" would be to the US markets. Apparently not this time. Where is the money going? Treasuries?
That cheap foreign trade goods Tsunami washing on our shores is getting bigger every day!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:56 - ID#269409)
More Gold STocks
Nem Off 9.5%, PDG off 11.5%, CDE off 9.2% and at a 5 yr. low

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:57 - ID#252132)
@ Again:
Please notice that I said "IF" Newmont Mining hold that support line.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:58 - ID#194311)
Hurricane Gold
Wiiiinding UP....sucking all in it's path!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:59 - ID#319269)
Can anyone help me?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 14:59 - ID#31868)


(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:01 - ID#194225)
Yes, gold is up several $$ relative to the Friday's US close. It may not be up relative to London's Friday close.

To George Cole: Most Accurate Dow Top Prediction award, congratulations.

Doesn't common sense tell you that if this becomes a prolonged downturn, mankind will turn to precious metals? The failure of the global economy will constitute a palpable rebuke to the New World Order crowd and may have the ancillary effect of discrediting the gold-bashers.

Career / entrepreneurial tip for the coming worldwide megadepression: Providing security at mining sites.

There are some nervous people in the world right about now, folks.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:01 - ID#402309)
...As of 01:55 PM the DOW is down -295.18 at 7,420.23 ... NASDAQ is down -79.18 at 1,571.74 ... S&P 500 is down -30.43 at 911.21 ... NYSE is down -16.10 at 479.67 ... AMEX is down -27.72 at 673.46 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:02 - ID#20135)
Well, History is about to be made -- our first test of the 350 collar. It will be fun seeing how people handle the market being shut down?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:03 - ID#348129)
I was bearish on Gold with the Swiss sale etc, but the CB manipulation period may be drawing to a violent close here .... :- ) )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:03 - ID#31868)
The money which is not showing up anywhere in the world, will show up in gold and money market accounts. CNBC is talkinghead puppet.

Alan Greenspan is taking a bath in Mr. Bubble.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:04 - ID#386276)
Dow 97

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:05 - ID#403267)
@look out below
If we take out 290 SOX, 1560 NASDAQ, OEX 860, all of which we are poised to do, look out below, Puetz is a winner.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:06 - ID#194311)
growth industries
Kevorkian assisted suicide...
Wall Street cleaning services....
Chinese laundries, specialist underwear stain removers...

Peter (born loser)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:06 - ID#15658)
1 ) The "Group Therapy" heading is great, Bart: it gives such a warm huddly feeling.
2 ) The realisation that the Dow maybe Has No Clothes: is this to do with the "bare" market I keep on hearing hinted at?
3 ) Lancelot's 4-word question ( the 14.59 version ) : so poetically poignant!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:06 - ID#252132)
@ Holding That Line:
Elf: Newmont shows a low for the day at Yahoo of 37 1/2 so far. I say the support line still hold and Newmont is still in the Bull phase. ...........To London LMBA market--- "may you get the pocksies"!!! : ) ) )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:07 - ID#31868)
Okay since nodody else has mentioned it I thought I would throw this out for public consumption - AFRICA - yes, one of the greatest investment opportunities as we close out this century.

Greenspan still soaking in Mr. Bubble.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:08 - ID#194225)
@verbose today
JTF - where is the money going? There never WAS any money. It was all a mirage. Electronic. Bits and bytes. Printouts. Mutual fund mailings. Stock columns. Annual reports. Electrons, powered by optimism. There was never any real money. If you and I would like to lend each other money and make huge offers for each other's houses, we could be millionaires. Billionaires. Until reality set in. As some doomsayer once said, We'll just mark everything down to what it's really worth, then start over ( might have been James Davidson ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:08 - ID#57232)
Zardoz: I don't know if you are right about the mainland Chinese orchestrating the HK situation, but you might want to look at my dialog with Mike Sheller yesterday ( or Saturday ) . Hong Kong has been a thorn in the side of the mainland Chinese for over a century, and they now have Shanghai. Despite the Chinese skills at intrigue going back centuries, I think it is damage control, and HK is expendable. As I recall, the Chinese not only invented bureaucracy, gunpowder and rockets, but Chess as well.
If anything that comes out of this, it will be the Hedge funds that will be blamed for the HK situation, not the mainland Chinese! Could be the mainland Chinese will now blame the westerners, just as Mahathir did. And they will remember. Our president will not even notice the blink of an eyelash.

a JTF friend
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:09 - ID#256153)
BaNCO Santander
JTF: Banco Santander indeed has branches in all Latin American countries, but it is a SPANISH bank with corporate offices in Santander, Espana.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:09 - ID#319269)
is vronsky there?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:11 - ID#33180)
Byron: 36 3/4 low today on my real-time ( no delay ) quote service.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:12 - ID#252132)
@ Again:
Please notice that I said "IF" Newmont Mining hold that support line.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:13 - ID#194311)
US dollar looking soggy
tissue paper going cheap

Wan Mo Tam
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:13 - ID#173273)
@the pits
DOW down 315 turning up just a tad??
NASDAQ down 92 slight upturn
S&P down 40 was 41

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:14 - ID#319269)
does anyone have vronsky's phone number?

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:14 - ID#26059)
Ol' Joe Batapaglia is coming on soon to shore up the walls...theyll be buying after he talks...makes me want to puke!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:15 - ID#187218)
Why is silver not moving ? How are gold/silver prices being kept down with the volitility in the past several days ?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:16 - ID#403267)
We are through support. My speculative "news" Au mining stock BCMD is holding so far at its 1 1/8 support. Strong hands in bad weather!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:17 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
Glad I bought gold shares ( ABX ) as a portfolio hedge for my conventional stox ( ( DOOOOOOOOOH ) ) ....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:17 - ID#320102)
With our market down and the Chinese holding all those US Treasuries, it would seem to put China in a superior bargaining position at this weeks meeting with Clinton. I wonder what this is going to cost us?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:18 - ID#252132)
@ Holding That Line:
Elf: Newmont shows a low for the day at Yahoo of 37 3/8. Homestake showing only down -1/2.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:19 - ID#386245)
Black Monday repeat. Will you take out the 550 halt?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:20 - ID#31868)
They are going to have to invent a new word to describe silver's move upward. The silver market is going to get stretched like a rubberband.

The gold market is being grossly manipulated. Things can now be made to look as if the market is making "wacky" things happen in the metals market.

If volume of gold being bought around the globe starts pushing gold upwards, those betting the short position will get slaughtered and the price of the yellow metal will go off the charts.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:20 - ID#318123)
This has got to be the ultimate sport event, mega money changing hands and more than a 5% loss on todays trading. Sorry but I've got to share some bragging points to afew people who figured us Goldbugs and analysts
are market disaster soothsayers. Eat my Shorts paper pushers!! Gold securities of all types are Moonshots once Gold it breaks out!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:22 - ID#30116)
If we get to 3:30 E.S.T. without going the 550 point limit, there will be no halts in the final half hour of trading.

Crystal Ball
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:22 - ID#287367)
(Choking Dippies! Heimlich maneuver anybody ?
I show Dow down 470 ! The 30 yr bond is up over 1 full point.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:23 - ID#287389)
If you have the data, could you please post XAU/Spot Ratio?

NEM and ABX look mighty attractive.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:24 - ID#30116)
$TRIN OVER 7!!!!!!

2966 decliners
158 advancers.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:24 - ID#187218)
It's not time to gloat. We BUGS must wait until we can scrape the clouds in the sky ONLY THEN can we make Yellow fall from up high.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:24 - ID#31868)
When was the last time the NASDAQ got clanked 110 points.

Is Bill Gates wealth clock running backwards yet?

Does he care?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:25 - ID#30116)
497 and counting!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:25 - ID#57232)
a JTF friend: I know -- if I said South American bank, I mispoke. STD has been very busy buying up South American Banks. Yes, it is a Spanish bank. The reason I mentioned this is that as far as I can tell ( I'm not a banker ) it is a world-class bank rivaling HKSB. Thank you for correcting me -- I try very hard only to post just the truth -- in part so that others may strive to do so also -- like ANOTHER. If you know more about STD, and its significance to the financial strength of the Spanish speaking world -- please tell us! For obvious reasons, I am very concerned about the possible collapse of a key world-class bank, such as what happened in Austria in the early 30's.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:25 - ID#20135)
@pondCentral feed is up again. I gues they ( comex ) had trouble finding bullion because it looks like we are making a nice upward move. Take a look. It will make you feel warm and fuzzy at least for a little while -- if you hurry. Let's hope for the best.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:26 - ID#30116)
TRIN has gone verticle now over 8.3

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:26 - ID#364147)
@ crash control headquarters in Cape Breton
Dow down 5-2-0....where are the dipsters??

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:26 - ID#431263)
EXCHANGE STRUCTURE! THE DOLLAR IS THE NEXT CURRENCY TO GET CLOBBERED! ALL DOLLAR_DENOMINATED PAPER WILL BE DEVALUED IN COMING WEEKS! ONLY METALS WILL SURVIVE AS MASSIVE FLOW OF FUNDS FROM ASIA, Latin America, Europe and US pile into ONLY SAFE HAVEN LEFT--GOLD!! We've been asking for it! We've been expecting it! AND NOW WE'VE GOT IT!!! For better or worse!! The NEW PARADIGM IS NOW DEAD!!! The CYCLES OF HISTORY LIVE!! The next stage will be massive socila unrest on a global scale leading up to WAR!!

Crystal Ball
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:27 - ID#287367)
Down 525.04 ! ! ! ! ! !

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:27 - ID#26059)
Some free market, halt trading at 350 points...what a rigged game...I have a short fund and it is funny, it doesnt go up as much as youd think on a big stock selloff day, but on a Dow upday it gets hammered...geeeesh

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:27 - ID#252132)
@The Public Library:
The XAU low for the year was 85.79 in July. Today's low is 87.58.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:27 - ID#402309)
Follow the Markets and see the patterns to improve decisions and reduce risk.

...As of 02:19 PM the DOW is down -321.21 at 7,394.20 ... NASDAQ is down -91.48 at 1,559.44 ... S&P 500 is down -40.74 at 900.90 ... NYSE is down -21.37 at 474.40 ... AMEX is down -29.94 at 671.24 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:28 - ID#364147)
@ Panda
Do you think we will have a down close for the Dow?? Thankx in advance for your answer!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:28 - ID#30116)
'They' are waiting for 3:30, don't buy anything yet!

Hellen Keller
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:28 - ID#394147)
@ Cheese Head
Head of Cheese: STOP YELLING! it's not polite!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:29 - ID#320102)
Dow down 469.05; I would say the test of the new trading halt failed!Wow
Wow, now its dropped to 534 while I've been waiting for Kitco to answer.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:29 - ID#348129)
@CB Central Control
We are nearing the end of the great Gold manipulation era.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:29 - ID#26059)
Golden Cheesehead-whos gonna win tonight?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:31 - ID#7568)

They -- are toast. This baby is off the rails and is not coming back. The first part of this game was hard. The next part is easy. This will only end after Joe Mutual Fund has gotten hammered. No 10 - 15 percent correction is going to do the trick. No, oh well the Dow is still up 10 percent for the year. It's hammer time.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:31 - ID#402309)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:32 - ID#30116)
@White House weighs in!
White House says that everyone should take a deep breath!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:32 - ID#42953)

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:32 - ID#26059)
No, I mean the Dolphins and Teddy Bears...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:33 - ID#364147)
@ trading halted AGAIN!
Enuf said!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:34 - ID#30116)
Hi Ted!

D.A. -- If they didn't halt trading yet ( 3:30 ) , then there will be no halt till the close. I know what my clock says, I don't know what the NYSE clocks says though. :- ) )

R. Burke
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:35 - ID#411102)
Both toronto and New York Closed NASDQ best efforts only.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:35 - ID#42953)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:35 - ID#30116)
NYSE Volume at 692.5 million shares!

John N.
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:35 - ID#244207)

Hmmm. Why is it that CNBC removes the "Dow bug" when the average gets down around the collar?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:36 - ID#30116)
@Radio news!
The spin is on!!! The business news says to be happy and BUY!!!!

George Orwell, alive and well!

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:36 - ID#26059)
Dow trading has halted

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:37 - ID#20135)
Want to sell you NYSE stock SOOOOooooo Sorry YOu can't it has closed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:37 - ID#224151)
Zardoz 14:37 & Allen 14:39....Some very perceptive comments. Particularly agree with your final paragraph Allen re " America will become focus of anger etc. Dollar dominace could well be over when the dust from this one settles.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:37 - ID#57232)
RJ: Any surfer Tsunamis to the west above your window? Your surfboarder friends may be having the time of their life! At the very least, we'll have a cheap goods Tsunami coming our way.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:38 - ID#227238)
Trading halted for the day. XAU down 10 and change. ...... When the police arrive, the good girls get taken with the bad. For a ray of sunshine, be happy if you're not a holder of Oxford Health Plans. It was down some 40 points the last I saw.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:38 - ID#26059)
The traders were applauding on floor..a big announcement on floor...what a bunch of cry they have a little taste of what we have felt like

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:38 - ID#364147)
@ the pause that refreshes
Dow down 354.37

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:38 - ID#42953)
USA Gold
From USA Gold:

oints, with some high tech stocks down 11 points a piece!!

We reported Friday that gold dropped $16/oz. after an announcement by the Swiss finance
ministry and Swiss National Bank that they would like to sell 1400 tons of gold as part of a plan
to sell off half their reserves and revalue the other half to free market levels. Just this morning
Reuters news service carried a story that Swiss finance minister, Kaspar Villigar, has back away
from the plan to sell the full amount of 1400 tonnes of Swiss gold reserves if referendum approval
is obtained in 1999. The key here is that it would have to pass by referendum with Swiss voters
in 1999. Recent polling in Switzerland over the gold issue showed the Swiss people are opposed
by a comfortable margin. In addition an earlier plan called for selling Swiss gold over a period of
years so the market would not be overly disturbed. When you take into consideration that the
Swiss will retain half of their reserves to back the franc, they would only hurt themselves by
putting too much pressure on the price. We think it more than a coincidence that this
announcement would be made at a time when currency and equities markets around the world are
embroiled in crisis. More later as things develop. We see this as a buying opportunity.

Meanwhile, demand in Asia ( especially in India ) is holding up. They are buying as gold comes
onto the market. Physical demand continues unabated as seen in the rising gold lease rates. On
Friday, lease rates were at 2.78%. Today, lease rates have jumped to 3.60%. In silver, the
warehouse stocks continue to fall. On Friday, warehouse stocks dropped another 674,000 ounces
to 133 million ounces. There are approximately 70,000 silver contracts open for December 1997.
Each contract represents 5,000 ounces. Multiplying these numbers yields 350 million ounces but
there are only 133 million ounces available for delivery. Now it is clear that a classic short squeeze
is developing which could propel silver much, much higher . That's all for now. We will update if
anything important develops.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:40 - ID#364147)
@ great call
Congrats Cherokee ( in Vegas ) and Puetz on crash-calls...Hep: belated congrats on gold call but your Dow call suks ( 8300 on 10/23+ 8300 on 10/24 )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:40 - ID#255285)
Happy and smiley, grumpy and salty..

Hi Ho Hi Ho it's off to the salt mines I go

and to JM.for a leettle beet more precious

Cherokee a bird whispered "31" in my ear, perhaps that was for you at Vegas?

Some morning, the talking heads on NZ radio trying to calm the patient's fevered brow. "looking for buying opportunities fairly soon"

And they completely upstuffed gold analysis unless I missed massive Asian Sales of yellow while I slept.

BTW kitco volumes ( the only data that really matters ) have tripled since June, but, Bart, *whence* cometh these golden birds to feed at the oasis@sanitydotkitco? And how frequently,

I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm the pheasant plucker's son,
If you want to pluck a pheasant wait till the pheasant plucker comes.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:40 - ID#26059)
Here comes the Messiah of stocks on CNBC..Joe Battapaglia...all will be well the Saviour has arrived...gheeesh

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:40 - ID#31868)
JTF: According to the Edinburgh Chess Club the game as best they can tell was invented in India.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:40 - ID#431263)
Entschuldigen Sie mich meine Kitco Freunde! I promise not to abuse the caps button ever again! But I feel a tremendous obligation to warn any dipsters still out there about the conflagration of paper which is just beginning! Please understand, I'm not saying we've reached the end of western civilization, but for those who think this is just a short term hiccup in an ongoing bull market IT ISN"T! This mess will take months and years to correct! That's why the ONLY SAFE INVESTMENT NOW IS GOLD!!! ( Heilige! There I go again! ) PACK BY 10

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:41 - ID#26059)
Wonder if theyll bring Battapaglia out nailed to a cross ....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:41 - ID#364147)
@ won't be long
It won't be long till Klinton trots out Bobby Rubin to do some spin-control....

Richard Burke
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:42 - ID#411318)
@Sunny Gulf of Georgia
What is the prognosis regarding gold stocks now with there being a good chance of triple digit drops in the Dow, and Toronto for at least a couple more days? Where do any of you see supports for the XAU?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:42 - ID#244284)
O.K. everyone! Take a half hour breather from the carnage...
Dow down 352 and change...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:42 - ID#386276)
Mon Oct 27 2:35PM Eastern U.S. Time -- U.S. Markets close in 1 hour 25 minutes.
NameSymbolLast TradeChange
BrazilBovespa Index^BVSP2:24PM9817-1728**************-14.97%
CanadaTSE 300 Composite^TSE2:24PM6703.40-330.09******-4.69%
MexicoIPC Index^MXX2:23PM4481.500-438.560***********-8.91%
PeruLima General^IGRA1:47PM1827.20-125.31************-6.42%
AustraliaAll Ordinaries^AORD12:06AM2477.00.00.00%
ChinaShanghai Composite^SSEC2:01AM1235.827+57.521****+4.88%
Hong KongHang Seng^HSI2:55AM10498.20-646.14*********-5.80%
IndiaBSE 30^BSESN6:49AM3934.33-23.13*****************-0.58%
IndonesiaJakarta Composite^JKSE4:00AM490.120-0.277******-0.06%
JapanNikkei 225^N2251:02AM17038.36-325.38*************-1.87%
MalaysiaKLSE Composite^KLSE4:01AM693.39+1.00********+0.14%
New ZealandNZSE 40^NZ40C2:21PM2469.59-0.15**********-0.01%
PakistanKarachi 100^KSE4:06AM1959.59-21.09************-1.06%
SingaporeStraits Times^SS14:01AM1619.90+2.09***********+0.13%
South KoreaSeoul Composite^KS111:41AM530.47-18.00******-3.28%
Sri LankaAll Share^CSE4:32AM758.60-1.50****************-0.20%
TaiwanTaiwan Weighted^TWII11:03PM7662.53-56.51********-0.73%
Czech RepublicPX50^PX5010:01AM531.1-4.1***************-0.77%
FinlandHelsinki General^HEX10:35AM3581.72-215.19********-5.67%
FranceCAC 40^FCHI11:16AM2769.64-79.39****************-2.79%
GreeceGeneral Share^ATG6:30AM1652.42-43.74************-2.58%
NetherlandsAEX General^AEX10:30AM861.16-30.19*********-3.39%
NorwayTotal Share^NTOT11:02AM1356.36-29.59***********-2.13%
PortugalBVL 30^BVL301:31PM3451.12-97.09**************-2.74%
RussiaMoscow Times^MTMS12:52PM966.03-83.42**********-7.95%
SpainMadrid General^SMSI12:28PM555.47-25.62***********-4.41%
SwedenStockholm General^SFOG11:00AM2877.01-133.46****-4.43%
SwitzerlandSwiss Market^SSMI10:43AM5533.5-156.0********-2.74%
TurkeyISE National-100^XU1009:00AM3119.00-393.00******-11.19%
United KingdomFT-SE 100^MFNX11:30AM4840.70-25.60****-0.53%
Africa/Middle East
South AfricaJohannesburg Gold^JGAI9:08AM894.9-62.1******-6.49%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:43 - ID#318123)
Who do you think is going to be selling their Gold tomorrow, USA, Swiss or the investment house clients?? Probably the investment house clients, everything is tanking "trust me"!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:44 - ID#402309)
Been fun folks! ...As of 03:36 PM the DOW is down -554.26 at 7,161.15 ... NASDAQ is down -109.97 at 1,540.95 ... S&P 500 is down -55.03 at 886.61 ... NYSE is down -28.31 at 467.46 ... AMEX is down -36.02 at 665.16 ...

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:44 - ID#26059)
Wonder what the reaction will be when it reopens..just said that T Rowe price has heavy calling volume...hats off to the person in here that called 7200 on the Dow..just might happen..

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:44 - ID#402309)
...As of 02:39 PM the DOW is down -354.37 at 7,361.04 ... NASDAQ is down -87.10 at 1,563.82 ... S&P 500 is down -38.36 at 903.28 ... NYSE is down -20.53 at 475.24 ... AMEX is down -31.12 at 670.06 ...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:44 - ID#57232)
All: Perhaps gold is like a tidal wave in reverse ( I like Tsunami better ) . Minutes before the wave hits the beach, all the water disappears. Those that don't know any better think the water is gone, and wander out onto the sand.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:45 - ID#227238)
Panda: "White House says that everyone should take a deep breath!"

You forgot: Clinton don't inhale. ........ :- )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:46 - ID#30116)
@Good Girls!
Earl -- Don't go knocking them good girls... :- ) They seemed pretty friendly to me ( and Ben ) . :- ) )

O.K. Let's see, who can find some gold coins right about now? Then try sometime tomorrow afternoon???

Mexican peso took a hit today. It's looking pretty ugly all around!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:46 - ID#427357)
View the carnage on Wall Street:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:46 - ID#386276)
Avid chatter

Mon, Oct 27, 1:31PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
Feb Gold +4.70 XAU 88.21 - 8.30 !!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:47 - ID#241277)
Trick or Treat
JTF and ALL: Indeed, is Jiang's visit to the NYSE on Halloween at trick or a treat? Jiang may indeed have reason to smerk as he is apt to do! Another Chinese chess move? If the Chinese can turn the finger towards the west and the US for Hong convenient....maybe they will convince the Japanese to do the same...the Tigers will have their vengance!

BTW: I found this curious quote by the Canadian Press in Friday's paper issuing from their New York office re: Swiss sale and golds drop:

"But such sales ( the Swiss proposal, the Dutch 300 tonnes and the Aussies 167 tonnes ) don't necessarily always disrupt the gold market. The US and International Monetary Fund sold 1,175 tonnes of gold over a three-year period in the late 1970s without disrupting a gold bullion market that was about half the size it is now"..said Rhona O'Connell, of T.Hoare & Co.....the World's central banks and instutitions hold about 35,000 tonnes of gold.

Now is the Swiss threat a trick or a treat?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:47 - ID#26793)
Are the metals still trading?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:48 - ID#427357)
DJIA Down 555, NASDAQ Down 115 & S&P 500 Down 64:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:48 - ID#364147)
@ isn't this TYPICAL
Due to stormy weather am just starting to lose the satellite signal and can't hear talkin heads on CNBC....but more importantly,Monday Night Football is now in jeopardy!!....Why God??

Robert Rubin
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:48 - ID#403159)
@Everything is fine
Gold bugs: This is YOUR chance to step up to the plate and buy some of those grossly undervalued equities that you previously hated.WE need your help!! Go America! Go Wall Street!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:48 - ID#402309)
Hands up, baby hands up, gimme your stock, gimee gimme your stock!!

George cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:49 - ID#42953)
Cash and FSAGX
After selling my modest nongold stock holdings today at a small profit ( they were considerably bigger yesterday ) , I am now 90% in money funds and 10% in FSAGX. After today I am down 10% on the FSAGX investment but am hanging in there. I still see this as a selling climax bottom for the gold shares, and expect themm to be MUCH higher a year from now.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:49 - ID#227238)
George Cole: Do expect to see additional tax loss selling, from these levels, on the gold stocks????? .... ( grin thing )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:50 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:52 - ID#30116)
@Tech route!
Talk about a hit! Tech stock, Teradyne ( TER ) , was at ~$55 a week and a half ago. The latest quote I have says 36 3/8. OUCH!! $SOX at 284 and change, a week and half ago, ~390. Intel being touted as a good buy at $75, no thanks......

The M.F. crowd is going to have one hell of a case of heartburn at dinner tonight!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:52 - ID#348397)
maybe the goldilocks economy is turning into a mouldy lox economy. gold seems to suck

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:52 - ID#354221)
With the Dow down over 350 points, has the market been halted and if so, for how long.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:53 - ID#401237)
If they won't buy'em tank the markets
Well, that's one way to sell US Bonds.

Anyone hear anything about margin calls?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:53 - ID#241277)
All; NYSE stops trading....!!!!!....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:54 - ID#246224)
Thanks for your kind words. We have been exploring a wide range of concerns here over the past few months which could be divided into two groups: economic and financial. The financial portion is the fluid movement of capital. The economic portion is the structure and substance of underlying organizations ( whether corporate or governmental ) . As we have delved into these matters it has become clear that we are in the midst of a remarkably untenable situation where almost all the world's equity markets are in a super-speculative bubble. In addition to this is the gargantuan debt ( bond/loan ) commitments and derivative options used to "insure" both equity and debt markets and their players. These commitments are worldwide in scope and have fed each other to the point of mania. Many regions have used equity shares to colateralize loans for large corporations ( Asian ) .

As we see the equities markets fall like dominoes we are left to ponder the *total* impact of the evaporation of this capital on the personal and regional fortunes of over a billion people and their livelihoods. Outflows from the equity markets will create tremendous pressure on other financial and economic arenas. We are looking at the beginning of sorrows here.

There are a few here who see a much darker picture than a simple correction. Just the way we are looking at this situation and where it might end up. In looking the tiger in the teeth, so to speak, some are hoping to plan well enough to weather lesser difficulties if these nightmares are never realized.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:54 - ID#347332)
TO tolerant1 ( @Tequilaville ) ;
Microsoft down $6.00 x 462,000,000 shares ( B.Gates ) . u figure it out.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:55 - ID#387247)
Would this be the time to borrow money and buy gold and silver thinking you can repay your loan in a couple of weeks with a cheaper dollar ??????

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:56 - ID#42953)
tax loss selling
EarL; After the gold stock routes Friday and today, I suspect there are not many weak holders left who would consider chucking them in near a probable bottom for tax loss purposes.

Someone here mentioned that one can gauge the depth of potential problems in the financial markets by the intensity of official attacks on gold. A very profound and very correct observation.

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:57 - ID#42953)
trading halt
According to CNBC stock trading will resume a little after 3:00.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:57 - ID#26059)
Trading will be halted ahalf hour...if drop hits 500 1 hour..George Soros dumping bonds...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:57 - ID#387247)
HI TED !!!!!!
Saw where you are selling your house.......You can't do that until I get up there!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:58 - ID#386276)
I would be very cautious about buying gold stocks at this point in time.

With the massive total no confidence displayed by the US markets today, I would expect the rest of the global markets to follow suite.

I expect the dow to pass through 7000 tonight and 6000 the following night.
The big plunge to follow bouncing off 4000 at the lower fibo level.
The massive move down will shred all and every share in its path - globally.
Only when the dow bounces off these lower levels will it be safe to come out of the woodwork and pick up the au bargains off the floor.
Gold could rise $20 in the next few days but I doubt that it would save gold stocks from this fall.

I see the global markets sustaining losses in the vicinity of 5% to 10% today.
Our OZ SPI is down 90 odd points, it will be true carnage, here in Oz today.

But the real plunge is still a couple of days off.
Real fear and massive panic is staring the massive Tsunami in the eye now.
It is truly visible from the beach, but many stand and watch in disbelief. Time to move quick - last chance now.
As always IMHO

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:58 - ID#42953)
Dow fell nearly 7% today. That is only a third of October 19, 1987, but is not far shy of the 10% drop posted when the market crashed in 1929.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:58 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio at the point trading was halted = 23.59 I had been looking at 23.58 ( 10% ) drop from 26.2 as the point where a Bear stock and Gold Bull would be confirmed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:59 - ID#401237)
Gold Stocks trouble with trading
Inverted Yield Curve exists, investors went to short end of yield curve.
China & Soros selling some bonds?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 15:59 - ID#244284)
As I hinted at in my last missive. If the Dow drops 350 points a half-hour trading halt is called. If it drops 550 points, an hour halt is instituted. Anything beyond that and all bets are off-in more ways than one. I am really sweating my junior precious metals in here-but still holding.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:00 - ID#335190)
Stocks @ Toronto
October 27, 1997
Financial markets hit with biggest loss ever

TORONTO ( CP ) - North America's financial markets were shut down Monday amid a panic-driven selloff that resulted in the biggest point losses in their history.
The New York Stock Exchange, the world's most important stock market, was shut down for the day at 3:30 EST after the Dow Jones industrial average lost 554.26 points to close at 7161.1.
That was the biggest daily point loss ever, surpassing the record set on
Oct. 19, 1987 - Black Monday.

In Canada, the Toronto Stock Exchange was shut down after losing 434.3
points, or 6.12 per cent of its value, to close at 6599.2

a JTF Friend
(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:00 - ID#256153)
Credit-Anstalt, 1931
JTF "I am very concerned about the possible collapse of a key world-class bank, such as what happened in Austria in the early 30's." The collapse of Credit-Anstalt - an International Austrian bank- spilled over into Germany, then spread to England and France. The BIS was right in the middle of the entire financial mess. The ceNTRAL banks of England, France and the FRB of NY all got sucked into the problem. All this may have led to the re-establisment of the GOLD STANDARD.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:01 - ID#20135)
On Your Mark, Get Set, Start Traaaaaaaaaaadddddddddiiiiiinnnnnng.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:02 - ID#269409)
@Humilty Central, Hi Puetz
Congratulations Puetz. A BIG congratulations. A HUGE congratulations, a GARGANTUATION congratulations. I won't shine shoes till we hit your 5750 definition of crash, BUT the Pundits calling this a "correction" are full of crap. I gotta call it as I see it, and I've been wrong. We have a crash today, no question.

Anyone calling this anything short of a "crash" is just jerking themselves, and playing with semantics. It's a panicky meltdown when we hit both trading stops.

You deserve credit for a big hit today. Just don't talk Moon stuff and I'll sing your praises the rest of the week!

The Wichita Lineman
(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:03 - ID#374200)
where to now Jeeves ???
a ) the money comming out of stocks went to bonds, not gold.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:03 - ID#287279)
From my grandpa's memoir.
When they tell you how much they like you, it's time to watch your back!
When they tell you they come in peace, prepare for war!
When they tell you it's worthless, accumulate it!
When they tell you things are good, prepare for lean times!
When they tell you "trust me", question their every action!
When they tell you you dont need it, it will be scarce!
When they tell you it's valuable, you can do without!
From Bill Buckler's "Privateer"
In the words of Ayn Rand: "Don't bother to examine a folly, ask yourself only what it accomplishes."
"Gold is now tempting to any investor with even an inkling of the true nature of the situation. If it goes lower, it will become more tempting. In the face of mounting financial carnage all around, Rubin and Greenspan must hold up the market, mop up excess liquidity flowing into U.S. debt markets, control U.S. interest rates, and hold down the Gold price. Not even Hercules could do all that!"

George S.Cole
At this time I would be afraid of any paper. Only physical posession will do for me. Good luck.


Where is LGB!?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:03 - ID#31868)
Okay, the political pressure now gets stepped up a few clicks on Clinton. The band leader responsible for killing students is now in the Whitehouse discussing foreign policy with a President who just happens to be under investigation for accepting funds from what Asian country...Hmmmmmmm

Massive political shuffling in the deck of political cards. Clinton and Gore start looking around for their, what, friends. Bill says Al, where did everybody go.....Al...Al........hey Al, where did you go.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:04 - ID#348397)
Seems the dow did not want to hit the 350 panic button until after COMEX closes for the day. Maybe they wanted to suppress another, say , $ 0.50 up move in yellow.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:07 - ID#318123)
350 points down 30 minute coffee break for the traders this could be a long 30 minutes for some investors. Will be interesting which way the market moves from here. The herd mentality could finally be tested to the max, I feel this evening as many people are licking their wounds and contemplating if sell is on everyones mind. The bloodletting is not over and it may be a week or 2 before we see what the investment houses have for contingency plans? The Flight to Quality? GOLD GOLD GOLD

(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:10 - ID#31868)
Hey don't worry, President Clinton just said through his talking head news puppet that all is well, the fundamentals are fine and he is confident that all is well.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 16:12 - ID#31868)
Same talking head puppet already being asked about the 1934 Executive option the President has to halt trading on the market.

No comment was the response.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:38 - ID#284177)
Australian All Ords down 8.59% on opening ( 2264 ) -212,
Brazil down 14.97%
Mexico down 13.34%
New Zealand down 9.66%
Turkey down 11.19%
DOW TO 4000 no problems....
Remember it was at 3750 only three years ago...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:40 - ID#188244)
How come the same pinheads that told us last week that what happens in Asia isn't important to us are going to broadcast live the opening of the Hong Kong market tonight?

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:41 - ID#284177)
Australian All Ords down 228 so far
All the brave are coming out saying they will buy in a day or too.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:42 - ID#401237)
I talked to Schwab a while ago, could not even get on net for a while. I ask her how people were reacting? She said "it was panic"

Check out Aussie mkt and the others sell off continues. down 8-9%

I think bonds are weakening? in after hour trading.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:42 - ID#348286)
J&M Gold bars are sold out at a large dealer today. Haven't seen this in a very long time.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:45 - ID#401237)
Heraldo Rivera will cover the Hong Kong opening, NOW we will get some action!!!

Bill Buckler
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:45 - ID#257234)
capt@the-privateer com
The fall on U.S. stock markets is bad enough. What is FAR worse is the fact that trading on Wall St. was closed down - TWICE - on the day. The only precedent I know of for a Wall St closure was the assassination of President Kennedy in 1962.

Given the financial carnage already engulfing the rest of the world, and especially the fact that flight capital has been flooding into U.S. debt since the Hong Kong melt down last Thursday, this market closure is an absolutely horrendous precedent.

As I wrote in the most recent Privateer,
the flood of capital into U.S. bonds after the Hong Kong smash and the king hit which Gold suffered on Friday brings the whole situation to a head. At the core, the antagonists have always been Gold and U.S. debt paper - the reserve behind the entire global financial system. Now, events have focussed the attention of all on that core battle.

This U.S. market closure, much more than the 7% Dow fall, will shake confidence in the ultimate "quality" of U.S. debt. Long bond yields fell further today. Watch them. When they turn up, the true crisis will have hit.

The Canadian market closed early too, as did Mexico's. The North Americans have "blinked". That is a very grave precedent to put before all those looking to T-Bills as the ultimate "cash" in a market rout.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:47 - ID#20135)
Congrads, CNBC is having special coverage and they mentioned your markets open down roughly 8%. Wonder if they will tell us if gold moves up. Their is some guy Mark Holowesko ( Templeton ) that says he has been buying hong Knog all week and will buy today also. ( WOW! ) Gut he won't buy Japan.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:47 - ID#18970)
Everytime there is a crisis the WAR on Gold goes into full gear. When it ends GOLD will be UP 400 in one day. Re Swiss GOLD smoke screen It is almost embarrassingly apparent that the powers that be knew something was about to happen last week and it did. They are trying to calm fears as the economy is on the skids world wide and the debt implosion excellerates.
Gold now under attack again to prevent the safe haven after all shouldnt that be US treasuries. How will the deficit be with a recession /bankruptcies and pressure on stks. Remember its not just a crash this BUBBLE demands immediate gratification.

Lucky Strike
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:49 - ID#320158)
and the Nuggets
A bonus song to mark today's events
( To the tune of "Mr. Tambourine Man" ) :

Hey, Mister Alan Greenspan, play your song for me,
I'm a goldbug, so I've stashed away a bar or two,
Hey, Mister Alan Greenspan, play your song for me,
In the jingle-jangle morning, I'll be richer than you.

You took me for a trip upon your magic credit-chits,
Now the market's called it quits,
The Dow's been blown to bits,
Waits only for your boot-heels to come stomping,
My weariness amazes me,
I've waited for this day,
And now I'm going away,
On a Caribbean island I'll be romping,

[Chorus] Hey, Mister Alan Greenspan, etc.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:50 - ID#348286)
@The Bullshit Factory
The Talking heads are Speaking:
Urging calm, its only a minor blip. Buying opportunity.
The Bull market is still alive. USA is just fine. All the problems are elsewhere. The fundementals are possitive.
Don't worry. Don't sell. You'll be making 30% again in notime.

poor goldbugs
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:54 - ID#176144)
your gold stocks crash and gold don't rise
you could be looking at a major bummer winter

the way you're talking, gold stocks are going
to be worthless chits after tomorrow

remember, bugs, 10% does not a crash make.
if it did, we would be talking about the
1997 Crash of Gold

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:57 - ID#18970)
With the media covering the HK opening I wonder how it will open. Duh! They have to keep the public buying as Wall St needs liquidity to liquidate its longs to the public for its institutional clients who are still long. At the REAL equities bottom ( and maybe this applies to gold ) They will only talk of the risks of stks and to remain conservative. Message dont give them the liquidity SELL rallies even manufactured new high rallies though doubtful as probably to little time before the as yet deemphasized BAD news starts to hit. Trade only, dont hold stks or mutual funds. Quick trading will work. When you think about it isnt interesting how the new tax laws encourage long term ownership near the cyclical top. Hmmm. Thanks Newt!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:57 - ID#409349)
Puetz Puts
Congratulations on your call!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:58 - ID#348286)
Highrise: Are you serious? Is Opra planning to go next? WW: You got it right. Big time price manipulation, but physical Gold getting hard to find. Futures are bogus, they could never deliver on 99% of the contracts.
If we can get a few more bright days like today, the price will move.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:59 - ID#284177)
Australia down 17% since recent peak of 2780.
Down 183 ( only ) at 7 AM. Came back a little. A long day
ahead yet.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 18:59 - ID#194311)
No more therapy for us...we's not crazy!
Old rugby saying...keep your eye on the ball.
The ball's GOLD...the kick off has just been made, now the battle begins.
You will hear discrediting, even slanderous remarks..."catching a falling knife..", no longer a safety...blah blah blah.
HURRICANE GOLD will go on and on and on. Tsunami is just the bow shock and then there will be winds like you never seen on the financial seas and waves and rain, batten down the hatches, there's BIG forces at work.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:00 - ID#223146)
AG Wants Market To Fall --Alittle!!
Back in 1987 it was rumored that the Federal Reserve were Very Big buys of stock on the day that followed the big decline of 500+ points/ 20+%. If AG has a target of say 6400 on the DOW that represents where he thinks values belong, if he creates the money to stop this drop, can he do it under the Federal Reserve Charter?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:01 - ID#31868)
I really do feel sorry for the unsuspecting souls that took a clank today in the market. This is going to be a very bad week for alot of people. Billions and billions of dollars just wiped clean.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:04 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 22.97 According to the 100 years of data we have there has never been a time when the ratio "backed up" from a high point drop off like July/August until now to reach a new Dow/Gold Ratio high. If the ratio performs as in the past you can expect the general trend to be toward a ratio in the 2.0 or less area. From September 1928 to December 1932 on the first occasion. From January 1966 to December 1979 on the second. Past Performance etc. and all that stuff.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:06 - ID#284177)
AUSTRALIA: Banks hit by 10% drop.
Prime Minister urging calm, as "we don't overly rely on Asia" ( which is total CR*P! ) 60% of our total exports go to the TOTAL Asian region.
Blind Freddy could see this coming.

S&P must close over 963 to stabilise! No sustainable correction possible until a weekly closing below 898.05 ( It did that last night ) . Bull market remains in effect on a long-term basis as long as 733.25 holds on a monthly closing basis. ( Roll on 733! )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:07 - ID#32078)
rates down
Bill Buckler has hit the nail. Today the 30 year bond rate edged up to 6.27% when there was a rumor that Soros was selling bonds, then reversed strongly and the rate dropped to 6.13 as tons of money went into bonds. It is just a matter of time before the only other destination for loose cash will be precious metals when the US bonds lose their allure. When rates turn up, get on the metals train.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:07 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .275 We have moved into the high end of the safe area after being in the risky area for 3+ years.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:07 - ID#348286)
Tokyo down 100 at open.....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:07 - ID#386276)

Oz market SPI high last night=2480...low this morning =2210.... This sucker is breaking apart at the seems.. talking to my broker before opening and he said that it would support at 2350..ha.ha.ha blew thru that call in first 5 minutes. This beast is goging to tank extra big time next two days. there are still buyers buying for every share sold. only when the buyers realise that they are not getting a cheap share that will go up tommorow, will this market purge itself. I look to the buyers realizing their worst nightmare, and stepping away from the buying stool and turning to sellers, when this happens, that there are no buyers only sellers, will the market fall massively into a deeply oversold position will finally start to induce dippies beack to the bargains. The loss of confidence in these markets will be enormous. We have to see this absence of buyers and a big plunge before we can think of going long again. I caught 54pts down today , and looking for spx to break 600 in next three days. IMHO

Our OZ SPI zinging up and down 100pts wow All our majors currently under suicide attack BHP down 10% some banks down 15% and the day has but begun. Bstevens you like me sound to make a large fortune in the next 3 days. Last night every rally was a failure that wedgie was the best. All rallies will be failures till all buyers leave the market. My ping figure for the first real rally is at 480spx. That level is the bottom fibo on the move from '84 to'97. The full bull leg.IMHO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:09 - ID#401237)
S&P Futures
Did I just hear S&P Futures down 15, looks like a down morning.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:09 - ID#20135)
CNBC talking head just noted that s&P futures just opened limit down -- means a bad opening in the U.S. tomorrow. ( roughly quoting her )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:14 - ID#31868)
I spoke with a friend today who works at one of the biggest rare coin and bullion companies in the US. He said today the phone practically melted.
People were specifically buying bullion, and as much as they could afford.

Most likely anybody in the bullion/coin business had a similar day. Now this is in the US where gold has been treated like a disease. I can only imagine how the gold bullion market worldwide was today.

Now I have no exact numbers of the total above ground amount of ounces, but I would bet that a buying market of roughly 250 - 300 million terrified people buying as much as they can afford would begin to eat into whatever the supply is and quick.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:14 - ID#400248)
Anyone invested in mining exploration companies experienced a meltdown
similar to whats going on now months ago after the Bre-x thing. Many junior stocks dropped 80% and are trading at or near their bottoms. These stocks were not affected at all today. Look back on the charts around Feb and see what happened. Maybe the same will happen with the broader markets.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:14 - ID#194311)
Reason for Gold shorts
a huge arbitrage position has opened up sucking in all kinds of derivatives money into seemingly endless profit on Gold sales...IT IS A TRAP...but like pigs at the slaughter trough we can't stop...our equations say SELL so we do...what are we selling anymore?...does anybody really know?

Senator Blutarsky
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:18 - ID#288100)
@Asset Allocation

For the dipsters: Was it OVER when the Germans bombed Wall Street? Where's the guts, where's the glory, huh? This is a buying opportunity for you paper bugs! You said you'd BUY on the dips! Here is Dow 7100. BUY it!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:18 - ID#217338)
Would all the young arrogant mba new paradigmers please stand up so that the millions of people who borrowed on their home equity loans and credit cards to follow your advise can remember who you are.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:20 - ID#364147)
WSJ gold news:Gold Futures Rebound a Bit,
But Fail to Rally on Dow Loss


The price of gold Monday managed to rebound a bit from Friday's losses,
but investors' caution about a Swiss plan to sell more than half of its giant
gold reserve to aid victims of the Holocaust kept gains in check, despite
the 554-point decline in the Dow Jones Industrial Average.

On the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange, gold for
December delivery rose $3.70 to $312.30 an ounce; December silver
climbed 0.5 cent to $4.790 an ounce.

On Friday, gold posted its biggest one-day loss since 1993, when the
December contract fell $16.10, or 5%, to $308.60 an ounce. The decline
Friday followed news that a Swiss panel, headed by top finance ministry
officials and representatives of the country's central bank, proposed that
the nation sell 1,400 tons of gold, or more than half of its giant gold
reserve, for the $5 billion fund.

While the Swiss plan requires the approval of
the nation's parliament and voting population,
the prospect of more selling by Switzerland or
other European nations continues to haunt the
precious-metals markets.

Monday's rebound in New York, meanwhile,
ran into trouble when technical problems with telephone services forced
the Nymex to delay trading in energy and metals.

Gold's inability to reap gains after the Dow Jones Industrial Average's
plunge is viewed as bearish. "It was as if the gains we saw today was only
some profit-taking after Friday's historic drop. It's clear that anybody
who's losing money in the stock market is not coming to gold," said
Timothy Porter, a research analyst at Refco Inc. in New York.

Gold prices usually rally on any downturn in stocks as investors turn to the
metal as a safe haven.

Meanwhile, January platinum plunged $11.80 to $400.20 an ounce on
rumors of more metal surfacing in Japan circulated in the market, said
George Gero, first vice president at Prudential Securities in New York.

In other commodity markets:

GRAINS AND SOYBEANS: Futures prices retreated on the Chicago
Board of Trade as a deepening world financial crisis made the long-term
export outlook for U.S. crops more uncertain.

The retreat came during a day that normally would have seen strong gain

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:21 - ID#31868)
What was the deal with the gold market closing early today???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:23 - ID#194311)
Black market in Gold
there is the paper gold market....and then there is the physical Gold two separate entities

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:23 - ID#26059)
I just called the Invesco Funds Group and they have a recording explaining what happened today in the markets. Then at the end they said, that most of the calls in the last half hour of trading more people were calling in to buy than to sell....the classic sign of a true bear could be emerging..

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:24 - ID#348286)
I can confirm a lot of physical buying today. As I said before a large dealer is sold out of the standard bars and doesn't know when getting more. Physical is being bought up. What does that tell us......

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:25 - ID#269409)
@Silver & Gold stocks
Looking at some key Gold & Silver Equities, ( SSRIF down 19%, NEM down 17%, PDG down 13.4% ) is appears some of the worst bloodletting happened in Mining shares, especially the exploration types. ( Where did IPMCF end up?? )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:26 - ID#401237)
Japan Down Again, here we go, another "DIP"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:27 - ID#252132)
@ U.S. Hurting:
At the overnight globex flash page, the U.S. is hurting. Yen up 78; Mark up 100; British Pound - up 120 and the Swiss Fr +136. That is the U.S. Dollar.

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:28 - ID#26059)
Australia and New Zealand down 9%--Tokyo down 1%???the fis is in there

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:30 - ID#386276)
LBG if you don't think that it is a tank yet, wait for another few days there won't be anymore dippies for years, You have readily accepted that your calls for the dow were not quite correct. Methinks you will have to rethink you thoughts by friday after all who is going to long over the weekend - no one.IMHO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:30 - ID#431263)
Just got Nick Guarino's latest fax ( 20 pages long! ) . Guarino is BEARISH! BEARISH! BEARISH! On US stock market, US Dollar, and US Bond market! How does Dow 4000 by Christmas grab ya? But he is BULLISH, BULLISH, BULLISH on the metals! $400 gold by Christmas! $6.00 min. silver by Christmas! Nick also says to SHORT, SHORT, SHORT the SPOOS and is guaranteeing all his subscribers DOUBLE their money back ( $10,000 ) if they don't make AT LEAST $100,000 trading his recos by the end of their subscriptions ( $5,000/yr. ) I'm in as of two weeks ago and short from 955! Bot DEC. Gold at $310 on Friday! Looking to buy silver at $4.90 MIT. The meltdown has just begun! Wait till Japan and China sell their US T-BILLS and T-BONDS!
WOW! RATES will SOAR! Bonds will CRASH with STOCKS! And GOLD will ROCKET! A Green and Gold victory over the Patriots tonight will confirm! GO PACK!

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:32 - ID#26395)
Market's up. Group therapy's over. We're back to a regular discussion. For those not using the frames version the weekend header that we used was "Group Therapy for Gold Investors and Market Analysts". I think we set a new record for weekend postings.

Donald : FYI the correct closing spot price on Friday was $308.50.

Mooney: Firstly, welcome back. Secondly, at your request the message appearing incorrectly with your name as the author has been removed. The culprit who did it will be reprimanded on the next paragraph.

Hey culprit: The Anonymizer is not completely efficient. It didn't anonymize your three posts of Saturday afternoon nor four of Friday afternoon. Lose the charade or you'll be asked to sit anonymously in the waiting area.

FWIW: The manufacturers of recognized 1-oz gold bars became two-three weeks late on their deliveries on two occasions in recent memory. Once when gold fell hard into the 320's and the other time when it dipped into the 340's. Today I was surprised to find that they had some on the shelves, ready to ship. BTW, FWIW=for what it's worth.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:35 - ID#31868)
LGB: IPMCF = 4 3/4

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:36 - ID#348286)
@JAPAN DOWN 270 - sinking as we speak
Just a reminder, the DOW still has to fall 14% just to get back to the level at the start of 1997. This baby could have a long way to go.......

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:39 - ID#26793)
James Grant and Pat Buchannan on CNN Crossfire right now.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:41 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Damn! Another chart that needs a new sheet appended to the bottom of it! WOW, is the word here! More to come? How can it now be any other way? Oh Bobby Rubin would have to do some major deficit spending to halt this now, but he would have to now spend it world wide! Nope! The house is afire! I see a new horizon appearing over the water. Horizon? Nah, just a little Tsunami style wave building and just about to hit the beach!

As for charting this stuff, don't even waste your time until it begins to slow somewhere, but watch the metals carefully! I wouldn't be surprised at ANYTHING happening with them, either up or down.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:41 - ID#386276)
I hope you don't mind me shouting out your name, but I like that call.
These levels are very close to mine and like you have already entered the necessary positions. Added well last night. Hang in there mate, as you have a mate who agrees 100% with that call. Only thing I see different is that the tank will be a lot sooner than most think. we are already 25% of the way there. Go gold !!! Like no one could hold this market back so to soon to happen for gold.IMHO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:41 - ID#371247)
Its nice to have a little gold optimism. My gold mutual fund must have done worse than the DOW today, even with bullion up slighly. Why is that? You would have thought the World Gold Fund would have stood up a little better than that. Any thoughts my asute brethren and sisters?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:42 - ID#225283)
Tuesday WSJ article

"This is the first time I've seen so many bears, and I've been here 20 years," said Leila Gustafson, owner of the Wildwood Wallstreet Campground..."they seem to be coming out of the woods in large numbers"
"i would like for somebody put up bear-crossing signs on the street" said one passerby "these bears can really do some damage."
It looks as though the bears are back after a very long nap.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:43 - ID#252132)
@ U.S. Hurting:
At the overnight globex flash page, the U.S. is hurting. Yen up 78; Mark up 100; British Pound - up 120 and the Swiss Fr +136. That is the U.S. Dollar.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:45 - ID#286199)
Most boomers are getting home from work and are getting the new for the first time. Phones are going off-hook and brokerages are being called. Tomorrow morning, mutual fund redemptions will hit the market. Any bets on when the market closes??? It is very bad that gold hasn't gone up on this news. This should have been an up day in the double figures.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:46 - ID#252132)
@ Yipes:
Update on U.S. Dollar at cme. Yen now .8377 +133; B.Pound 1.6764 +208; D.Mark .5840 +133; Swiss Fr .7146 +213

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:48 - ID#42953)
Noticed the XAU held steady the last hour as the Dow plunged 200 poonts. A good omen for tomorrow, perhaps.

Cyb Jeddak
(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:49 - ID#287193)
Was amazed that investors ignored the asian market problems. It is apparent that panic selling at any price is taking place. Other countries more distant than asia may contract the contagion as investors look at their fundamentals. However, the big next event is probably going to happen in Japan. The Japanese are trying to support Thailand, Indonesia and the asian tigers in general. It will overwhelm them quickly. Typically, the japanese are going to hide the disaster that is their bad foreign loans coupled with their bad domestic loans. Then one day rather sooner than later, their is going to be an abrupt announcement that one or more of their major banks is insolvent. Then you will really see panic selling in the U. S.

Gold is going to perform its' function as money. Gold and hard asset investments are going to lead a new bull market.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:49 - ID#26793)
Monday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a moderate 39,000 lots, as weakness in
technology shares triggered actual technology failure on the COMEX floor. Friday's
cleared volume was the highest ever at 140,726 lots. Total COMEX gold open interest on
Friday rose 25,829 to 204,484 contracts, sharply intensifying a recent trend of persistent
commercial accumulation combined with speculator short selling. COMEX gold
warehouse stocks rose 7,684 ounces to 769,952 ounces, while COMEX silver warehouse
stocks remained at their 12-year low of 133,227,192 ounces. The Johannesburg gold index
closed Monday morning at 894.9, down 62.1, with the U.S. dollar quoted at 4.7735 rand.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:50 - ID#252132)
@ There is hope:
If the U.S. Dollar continues to fall overnight this has to be good news for gold. ( According to my short and long term charts of gold vs the U.S. Dollar ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:50 - ID#348286)
@Go Figure
Why is the US dollar getting hit when big money is going into US bonds.
Things are not making much sense here. Strange things are starting to happen. :- ) )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:51 - ID#206358)
CAPTAIN:"We been waiting for you so long..welcome on board..MR D JONE!introduce some trip companions to you...MR.TAHILAND,MR MALAYSIA,INDO....MISS AUSSIE,...MADAM CARRIBEANS,....MISS DIM SAM..DOCTOR TAKAHASHI....ALL WELCOME OUR HONOURABLE MR.DOW JONES!"
"YOUR...SEAT NUMBER IS NO#554 UPSTAIR,if you prefer we have few floors low a bit..there are a lots of vacancy..feel FREE!"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:52 - ID#371247)
Question for George
George S. Cole, I have most of my money in gold mutual funds. Do you feel that these funds will go up in response to a move up in gold or will the gold funds follow the DOW down into the black hole? It seems to me that historically the gold stocks go up before the bullion does; obviously there is more volitability in the stock. Given my long-term investment strategy of buying into the gold funds on basically a dollar cost averaging method, I am hoping that investors will eventually turn to tangible worth and away from paper. I am assuming that gold funds represent gold reserves and hence more than just paper. Any thoughts?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:52 - ID#20135)
what is your url for currencies. thanks.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:54 - ID#201238)

To All - so what's next? I was early on Thursday's market open to predict we get to see a test of the circuit breakers, but today's action is exactly what I expected. If you stop trading for any period of time, it reinforces the fear that you can't get out. This is classic in commodity trading, building fear upon fear in a limit move.

In 1987 we had some similar reactions to what we have seen so far, but I believe that there is a powerful attempt to counteract the response, as in last Friday's gold action. Today looked very quiet with gold up 3.50 or so. Tonight globex is quoting gold down $2.00 Is this selling for margrin calls in the far east or is this selling to deny the 'flight to quality' that will happen.

In 1987, the reaction of bonds and gold was a bit delayed. After the big drop, bonds went limit up in the night session, and kept going limit up for for three days. They are only up 1/2 of a limit tonight, so far. At the same time gold stocks went down initially as I recall, then soared. I remember Battle Mountain at $25. Gold also went up for the next month to be capped by a huge sale ( at that time ) by Newmont of 1 million ounces at about $520 or so. We haven't seen that price since. If my info is correct, Newmont now has no gold hedge.

Today Placer announced an offer for Bema. Gold is very cheap in the ground now!

BTW, do you who bought huge amounts of T Bonds last week? Do you who shorted huge amounts of the SE Asian currencies? Do you who was selling T Bonds today? Do you know who started the gold rally in 1993? Do you know who is the largest shareholder in Newmont? George Soros.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:56 - ID#20135)
Nekkei 225 well below 17000. It will most likely close below 17000. Next stop 14000. THIS is A FULL BLOWN CURRENCY CRISIS. I may lose moeny in gold but I will not lose it all. Remember, it is relative. Ask the poor souls in asia that held their currency then ask those that bought gold. Gold in terms of the baht ( sp ) has been a great investment for that fellow even though it didn't earn interest under his bed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 19:58 - ID#18967)
@what's up
I know there's been alot of good calls here lately on the yellow metal.
However, its sounds funny to me right before all markets slides the Swiss announce a gold sale ( something that hasn't happened yet and maybe never will ) . The price of gold tanks. To me it sounds like some kinda market manipulation to drive the price down so it can be bought at cheaper price later. When you look at the size of the gold market, a differance of $10 or $15 not only will it make buyer wealthy but a hell of wealthier.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:02 - ID#426220)
The inimitable Gene Inger, CNBC financial celebrity, has insights worth sharing with us. PLEASE NOTE His comments were BEFORE the 555 point drop in the DOW:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:04 - ID#252132)
@ Info:
The site for currencies info: Need to click on "flash" update for current goings on at the CME Overnight Globex markets. DCB shows gold down $1.60. Give me a break!!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:04 - ID#348286)
Japan down 351. This is shaping up to be a hum-dinger of an open for HK.

George Cole
(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:06 - ID#42953)
gold and gold stocks
Tortfeasor: If gold rallies sharply ( $15 or more ) the gold stocks will go up or at least hold stady even if the Dow plunges another thousand points. But a smaller bullion rise probably would be insufficient to support the gold stocks if the markets really tank. Still, from here on in, the gold stocks should up much better than the overall market if bullion doesn't tank again.

Bitter experience has forced me to revise my thought that gold stocks usually lead bullion. Sometimes so, sometimes no. This latest gold sector smash, for instance, was triggered by bullion, not the gold stocks. Bullion plunged and the gold stocks followed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:06 - ID#69191)
I would like to know if my plan to reinvest profits from my investment in juniors ( which emerged relatively intact from todays carnage since they had already been wacked by Bre-X etc. ) later into Gold bullion and 90% silver coins and possibly some more 1 oz. Silver bars is still viable.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:08 - ID#431263)
Herr Moregold! The US DOLLAR is tanking because they're being cashed in by the CB's of China and Japan to provide the liquiduty necessary to cover their golden arsches in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Hong Kong and the Philippines! Read Jin's latest post! He's got it right! Just wait till the US investor gets wind that AG and the Treasury is printing dollars like there's no tomorrow to fund the IMF and the World Bank in their feeble attempts to paper over the ASIAN ( soon to become global ) market debacle! SELL ALL US PAPER NOW AND BUY GOLD!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:09 - ID#426220)
PUETZ LETTER - BULL KILLERS: Over-valuation & Leverage
Leverage is the vehicle that pushes markets beyond prudent levels. Once bull market reverses, leverage is the catalyst for panic selling. Short-interest level & NYSE Seats price bearish:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:09 - ID#69191)
WOW! Spot Gold is getting antsy tonite. Took a quick jump and then faded back a bit. The Sleeper is finally awakening to the currency and stock shenanigans???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:09 - ID#217268)
arden: It seems to me that ABX had/has ex-statesmen as board members, equal in stature to Mr. Soros, as shareholder at NEM.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:10 - ID#251147)
You guys and gals wanna know what is really going to get things movin?

If any money market mutual fund "busts the buck" look out. If you want to put a little english on it, put the world "government" some where in its name.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:14 - ID#26793)
Latin American securities suffered some of their biggest declines in five years as investors dumped
their holdings amid concern that markets, currencies and economies could be roiled by the same
upheaval that has swept through Asia in recent weeks. Brazilian stocks plunged 14.9 percent, in
their steepest percentage drop in at least five years. The Mexican peso plunged at least 8.4
percent, its biggest single-day decline in at least two years, and Argentine bond yields rose more
than 100 basis points.

Senator Blutarsky
(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:17 - ID#288100)
Senate Finance

Steve Puetz, Rousing good wager we have! Still don't think 4500 by Oct. 31, but by Jupiter! Damn good gutsy call! LGB should be down a bit today. He SAID he would BUY at 7400. Have you backed up your words with action Mr. Lurking Gold Bug?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:18 - ID#252132)
@ Just Discovered:
Just discovered that one can monitor the U.S. Index at night at The symbol is dx=z7. It's down -188!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:22 - ID#25588)
Puetz - My hat is off to you for not wavering from your analysis despite the intense criticism showered on you. Next time I'm at Purdue, I was there yesterday, I'd like to shake your hand personally.

irving berlin
(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:23 - ID#423220)
BLUE SKIES AND MARKET BLUES (1929 & 1997) by irving berlin
On the day of the greatest point drop in Wall Street history ( down 555 points in one day ) , it is memorable to recall: "Blue Skies" was the most popular song in 1929 - all across the land, but especially in Wall Street.

"Blue skies smilin' at me-
Nothin' but blue skies do I see-
Bluebirds singin' a song-
Nothin' but bluebirds all day long"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:23 - ID#391195)
Another push down ????
While all the pieces to the puzzle are in place for gold and silver to make a strong rise, I still expect another push downward. This should be an intra day thing when the bottom is in. Maybe 5-15 $$$ down spike with a close up of approximately the same amount. Those who have been here for a while will remember the conversations where this scenario was described in detail on this site about a year ago. We are close. Those with dry powder, you may start to "aim". "Fire" should be here soon.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:24 - ID#261118)
Mooney?, theeeeeee Mooney?,; yea!!!, welcome back...
DO NOT LEAVE AGAIN! ( this is your Mother talking!! ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:25 - ID#261269)
Look at gold c.r.e.e.p u.p ...shhhhhhh!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:27 - ID#261118)
@ The Puetzmeister
Much congrats!!!, what a call. I'd take you for a beer...
But I can't get your head through the door!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:28 - ID#391195)
APH..You still here ???
APH....This is the scenario we discussed about a year ago here...We thought it would occur a couple of months earlier.....Silver is not cooperating though....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:30 - ID#431263)
What a prescription for disaster! American capitalist greed and Chinese protectionist hegemony! In bed together in HK! Heilige!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:33 - ID#33180)
welcome back
nailz, APH: Good times in gold and silver may be just around the corner, with the old gang from better times returning. If Aurophile and Oldman were to join you in posting again to Kitco, the prospects would indeed look better. The absence of some former good forecasters has suggested to me that you had lost interest in gold as well as in childish posters.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:34 - ID#431263)
The death of Lady DI in a car crash! What a striking metaphor for what's happening tonight to HK!

Gusto Oro
(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:34 - ID#377235)
APH--Righto! Puetz showed considerable character in sticking to his story while suffering heavy criticism. No matter what happens now, given the last three trading days and a likely further spike down at least tomorrow morning, he'll retain lots of credibility in my book.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:35 - ID#252132)
@The Public Library
Gold only down .30 cents at dbc.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:37 - ID#261118)
@Donald'n all
Is'nt this the part in the story where Japan's banks COULD begin to fail?
Where tword 15K collapse could occure?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:38 - ID#431263)
Gold at $313.75 UP $2.05!!! If we can clear $325 we've got a bottom IMHO!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:39 - ID#347457)
I guess there is no other way for me just to ride it out
I hope this golden puppy wakes up soon and takes the g. stocks for a run. I've got 25% of my portfolio in FSAGX and FDPMX. 20% loss in the last few days. Rest of the money waiting on the side. Still hate that steep drop in gold stocks!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:40 - ID#225283)
This just in to G.T. communications center

"I regret to inform you that Miss Swiss Franc will not be able to join Mr D. Jones, Master U.S. Dollar, etc. on the cruise aboard the Gigantic Financial Titanic. She is certain all will have a smashing time.Please excuse the last minute change of plan"
her envoy,

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:40 - ID#252132)
@ Update:
Nikkei down -549.15 or -3.22% at 8:39PM EST.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:40 - ID#20135)
Japan Nikkei 225 ^N225 8:39PM 16488.11 -550.25 -3.23%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:41 - ID#31868)
I think it is safe to say that most people were unaware of the depth of the drop today until they got in their cars to go home. Upon getting home they watched as the talkinghead/puppet show informed them in graphic detail about the drop.

Then the puppets when on to say, with expert testimony from Mr. Rubin that the economy is healthy and the fundamentals are intact and strong.
Earlier someone mentioned in a post that the stopage for thirty minutes with the final stopage, closing the day, left people feeling trapped.

Tomorrow the market gets clanked big time, from the getgo. Markets around the world witnessed what happened to the almighty dollar and the supreme market.

This baby hasn't even begun. Things should be real ripe for Mr. Bubble on Wednesday. With all the guessing and such, I still say Mr. Bubble says something that stuns everbody on all sides.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:42 - ID#348286)
@Gold price
GOLDEN CHEESEHEAD: SSSHHHHH, there are some of us who want to buy it cheap tomorrow.........

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:42 - ID#225283)
ABC sta feed

Jimmy Rodgers is telling em like it is....$600 billion up in smoke today!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:42 - ID#157190)
Anybody have info re Adrian Day writing that the swiss proposal had been
rejected by their government before the media got ahold of the story and spun it in a more negative light?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:44 - ID#431263)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:46 - ID#26793)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:46 - ID#315256)
@Nick, Senator Blutarsky
Guys, Guys, Guys, there's no inconsistency here! I've been tellin ya for weeks I'm "out" of Equitites and waiting for 6700 for a chance to average back in. The only revision to that is I won't start that averaging process until I see stabilization. I think that will happen Wednesady after the Gree Weenie testifies and tells us all how he's ready to do whatever it takes to pump the market back up. We'll see a fall tomorrow, a climb Wednesday, maybe more drops in the following days, but no full fledged "crash" a la 1929.

I'll be happy to move back in ( cautiously ) between 6200-6700. As the pundits keep tellin us, today was only a THIRD the loss of 1987, and we quickly recovered that loss as you recall and went on to the best Bull in history.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:48 - ID#20135)
Byron the tie goes to the runner.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:49 - ID#26793)
LGB: Equitite? Each one the same size?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:49 - ID#31868)
Something that still bothers me. There are alot of people taking a bath. I know they are all big boy and girls. But watching somebody get run over by a train is no picnic. This kind of thing is not good for anybody.

This puppy has not even started to clank.

I'm starting to look into booze and brewing stocks. I figure there is going to be one whole lotta drinking going on. The winners and losers will be diving into the bottle.

This could be the perfect time for the govt to legalize weed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:50 - ID#224151)

Allen: You very ably express many of my sentiments and concerns. This "show" may
seem like fun to those of us who sensed it coming and took some precautions. But if
things turn into the Smash that some predict eventually it will be difficult for the luckiest
among us to escape some hurt. The possible negative ripple effects are mind boggling.
Beginning to look like an abyss under the Dow tonite. Perhaps now the decades long
"paper-chase" seems on the point of exhaustion Gold will re-establish its Kingly role.My
faith there is bolstered by the same logic that warned these days were approaching. That
fiat money and excess credit would end in abuse and failure is now becoming
self-evident. Historically , the discipline of Gold has supported "real money" in its three
main roles: Storehouse of value...value reference point and medium of exchange. And it
is looking more and more as though it will be called upon to fill that role once again.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:52 - ID#315256)
@Puetz, Black Moon on Halloween
Puetz have you noticed that the "Black Moon" occurs only once every 33 years or so on Halloween?? Does this mean we'll have a HUGE crash on Friday to follow the drops of today and last week?

OK, I congratulated you earlier on your call for today, now it's time to look at reality and be my old contrarian self. According to your thesis, a huge drop like today's, should precipitate a huge meltdown in an "overleveraged" market. Margin call selling, house of cards, nuclear reaction, etc. If this thesis is correct we should see a full blown crash by Friday or next week no??

( and to top this off we have a "Black Moon" , Sun, Moon Earth lined up perfectly with no sunlight reflected off the "new Moon" )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:53 - ID#7568)

We are certainly in the raw emotion phase now. Regardless of the spin, or the plaintive wails of our annointed leaders, the panic is here. The most likely event for my money is a commodity like adjustment to the S&P. Just like crashes in soybeans when there is a bountiful crop report, so to will the stock market decline. This means there will be very little actual trading for the distance we are about to travel. In the S&P's it is quite possible that there will be no trading at all tomorrow. On the morning of the crash in 1987 the S&P's opened down 20. The same percentage drop tomorrow would get us down around 50 points. With limit down being 70 its not farfetched that tomorrow will be a very quiet day in the S&P pits. The real problem for the market is now forced selling. With margin debt at an alltime high ( somewhere over 100 Billion dollars I believe, but will check later ) the phones are ringing. This market scenario is the one I have posited for some time now and why I have never even considered trading S&P's from the long side in the current environment, regardless of how 'easy' the money has been made on the upside. Anyone caught on the wrong side of the S&P's may get wiped out without any chance at all to cover.

If the market heads straight for its 'clearing' price, we will probably go down about 40-50% from the top. I haven't done the numbers yet but there is a useful indicator which relates stock and bond prices which has a pretty well defined floor for the stock market at current bond prices. Last I looked at the numbers, a 50% decline in stocks with no change in bonds would get us to lows in the relationship. Since then rates have come down a good deal so the 'bottom' is probably only 40% down from the top. This would project the S&P down around the 600 level.

As for the metals markets, the best is yet to come. Once the stock market finds its level, albeit much lower than at present, the Central Banks of the world will go to whip. As someone here commented before, since the US has the fastest computers they undoubtedly will be able to create the most money. Once the markets figure this out there will be no holding back the precious. Those that abandoned ship on Friday will be dealt the horrible blow of watching the metals skyrocket after they were shaken out. There is no bound to the cruelty of the market.

While I should be feeling upbeat and bouyant at having gotten our fund short a nice load of S&P's, truth is I'm a little bit scared. So many people are about to lose so much money its going to make for a lot of really angry and pissed off human beings. Last week we saw the gorillas go on the rampage when one of their young was snatched. Being gentle and forgiving, they were happy to go back to the forest when they had succeeded in liberating the little one. Human beings seem to hold grudges for a long time and are always looking for someone to blame. I sincerely hope that this financial dislocation does not get a lot of people killed.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:54 - ID#401460)
The Bar will be crowded tomorrow!
tolerant1: BOOZE was a big item durring other bad times is a good investment - Beer not Crown Royal - who makes Ripple Wine.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:54 - ID#315256)
I make a lot of typos Donals, must be the time I spent on AOL learning to type with One Hand!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:56 - ID#315256)
@Spin Meisters
However, on the amusing side of the "reporting", I've heard all kinds of great new Buzzword spins today on KGO. "Anticipated adjustment" was my favorite! ( Yeah if they anticipated it, how come we didn't hear about it last week!! )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:57 - ID#431263)
HERR LGB! You still don't get it mein Herr! THIS IS NOT 1987! Nor is this 1929! This is however 1997! At the height of the world's FIRST GLOBAL PAPER BUBBLE!! This debacle will TOP EVERYTHING BEFORE IT AND AFTER IT BOTH ON THE WAY UP AND NOW ON THE WAY DOWN! This ain't a falling knife, mein Freund, it's A NUCLEAR MELTDOWN ALA CHERNOBYL! Buy it at your PERIL!! I'll wait till everybody else is BANKRUPTED! GOLD @$313.80 UP $2.10! Better buy that yeller stuff TONIGHT on GLOBEX, mein Freunds!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:57 - ID#401460)
"Something called Gold went up today " ABC News

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:58 - ID#289151)
@on the scene
Rumor is 100$ plates have been installed in all printing presses and c-140's are standing by for the flight to HK!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:58 - ID#315256)
RJ the riff raff is gone. Times is exciting! Come back! What so you re silver??

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:58 - ID#252132)
@ DBC Update:
Gold now up $1.70 on DBC.!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:59 - ID#335190)
Federal Reserve @ Stabilization Hearings 1928=Prices down = Higher Monetary Value
The House Stabilization Hearings of 1928 proved conclusively that the Governors of the Federal Reserve System had been holding conferences with heads of the big European central banks. Even had the Congressmen known the details of the plot which was to culminate in the Great Depression of 1929-31, there would have been nothing they could have done to stop it.

The bankers knew what would happen when that five hundred million dollars worth of gold was sent to Europe. They wanted the Depression because it put the business and finance of the United States in their hands.

1928 House Hearings;
MR. BEEDY: " Mr. Ebersole of the Treasury Department concluded his remarks at the dinner we attended last night by saying that the Federal Reserve System did not want stabilization and the American businessman did not want it. They want these fluctuations in prices, not only in
securities but in commodities, in trade generally, because those who are now in control are making their profits out of that very instability. If control of these people does not come in a legitimate way, there may be an attempt to produce it by general upheavals such as have characterized society in days gone by. Revolutions have been promoted by dissatisfaction with existing conditions, the control being in the hands of the few, and the many paying the bills."

The financial situation in the United States during the 1920s was characterized by an inflation of speculative values only. It was a trader made situation. Prices of commodities remained low, despite the over-pricing of securities on the exchange.

The purchasers did not expect their securities to pay dividends. The idea was to hold them awhile and sell them at a profit. It had to stop somewhere, as Paul Warburg remarked in March 1929.Wall Street did not let it stop until the people had put their savings into these over-priced

Irving Fisher warned us in 1927 that the burden of stabilizing prices all over the woeld would soon fall on the United States. One of the results of the Second World War was the establishment of an International Monetary Fund to do just that. Professor Gustav Cassel remarked in the sameyear that:
" The downward movement of prices has not been a spontaneous result of forces beyond our control. It is the result of a policy deliberately framed to bring down prices and give a higher value to the monetary unit."

(Mon Oct 27 1997 20:59 - ID#24374)
Is there a web site that I can track the Nikkei on? Thank you

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:00 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Well, if anybody was still curious about the domino effect and the fruits of a global, interwoven paper/financial, inter-dependent empire, this is THE proper time to be studying it in its entirety!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:00 - ID#401460)
Heraldo Hong Kong CNBC
CNBC coverage of Hong Kong? I think on Heraldo's Show - really.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:01 - ID#225283)
to highrise

Sorry but you are wrong about the beer....there is currently a market share war going on between the major players and prices/profits are way off

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:01 - ID#347457)
@live TV on HK openning
Can somebody tell me WHY is HK so important and interesting that it requires live TV coverage. Isn't Japan, Australia NZ, etc. of more importance and look what's happening to them. I don't think that they've got it yet!

BTW, as far as booze goes, I am having a drink right now to wash down my loses in Gold mutuals :- )

Na Hearadh
(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:01 - ID#352180)
Western Isles
Nikkei down 584.51 @ 16453.85. The isles will see red skies in the morning!!!! Ted, Why don't you row out for breakfast.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:02 - ID#31868)
O'tay, tuned in to watch the football game and caught the end of Tremor's on Wall Street or some such nonsense. The talkinghead/puppet was Peter the repeater.

He asked the panel what their final thoughts were. One from the Wall Street Journal was asked, what would you do if a friend called you tonight for advice in the market. He flat out said, Oh, I do NOT give market advice to friends. But to the average investor, hang in there.


Then one of the other puppets said, the only place to go is bonds or gold which isn't worth anything anymore.


Na Hearadh
(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:03 - ID#352180)
Western Isles
WebPilot: Try this!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:03 - ID#315256)
Hope you're right Cheesehead as most of my discretionary investment money is in Platinum & Silver ( which ought to outperform any Gold ride ) , however, I don't think we have anything remotely resembling meltdown conditions. This "bubble" is overhyped here. Leverage and debt in OUR nation is not out of line with historical norms as a percentage of GNP, and every other indicator of ecomomic health is pretty damn rosy!

A big correction, or yes let's call it what it is, a mini crash, is a happenin! A major crash? I think it's HIGHLY unlikely, even WITH todays action and the Asian crises. You'll see a few more substantive drops, not as bad as todays, and then things will return to normalcy with a good "buy" opportunity.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:04 - ID#352177)
HK down 1200, down 11%.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:04 - ID#57232)
Miro: Even if you have a lot of dry powder, the part that's wet still hurts, doesn't it? I have about the same percentage of my portfolio in gold stocks, and the drop ( complements of that 1400 tonnes of Swiss gold to be sold in ???, if ever ) has been disturbing. Looks almost like panic selling -- much like the regular equities metals market. I can't decide between cutting my losses, or waiting it out -- because gold will eventually rise.
I guess the deciding factor for me is whether the dollar drops. If the dollar drops, will someone push gold down some more, and if so, what more can they throw at the gold market? Logically one would expect gold to rise if the dollar drops -- but I don't know what to believe anymore.
All I know is if gold drops more, a good bargain will become incredible!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:05 - ID#347457)
Wow, look at HK
HK down 11% on openning. Well, forget my question why is it so interesting. TV looks for sensational stories and HK looks like one right now.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:05 - ID#194311)
Down 11% at the OPEN!
OOOOOHHHHHHH, tears and gnashing of teeth

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:07 - ID#289151)
@on the scene
The c-140's are in taking off!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:07 - ID#225283)
HK & Highrise

The HK market is off nearly 12% in the first five minutes....Time to go for the hard stuff folks....Seagrams just sold off their networks .....flush with cash...and I think John Q. Public will be hitting the hard stuff once he realizes that it is a table stakes game and most are not able to ante up.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:07 - ID#315256)
@Tolerant1, Bad Gold Press still
All the talking haeds I heard interviewed today, bad mouthed Gold as a safe place for investors money when the subject arose. They all pulled out the "Flight to Quality" rhectoric and recommended "shifting" to "safer" equities or to the Bond market/Treasuries.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:08 - ID#401460)
Going Going Gone!!
HK futures down 15% "panic"
Glod moving I knew I should have bought more today my broker said to wait, this is always a sure sign I should buy.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:09 - ID#31868)
I tried this and it works better. Put masking tape across your TV set when it is tuned to CNBC PUPPET VISION, write yada, yada, paradigm, yada turn the volume down and sit back and watch.

It's no different, I swear.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:10 - ID#30116)
I see we're back on line! In case anyone missed the depth of the carnage today, here is the $TRIN chart.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:10 - ID#401460)
Shot & a Beer time
I used to know I guy named Black Jack.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:10 - ID#194311)
So who the hell is selling?
Taiwan stands by gold reserves
TAIPEI, Oct 27 ( AFP ) - Taiwan's central bank is not likely to
alter its gold reserves system despite millions of dollars' worth of
losses in the wake of the plunge of international gold prices,
central bank official said Monday.
"The central bank has no plans to adjust the ratio of gold at
its exchange reserves," Liang Cheng-chin, deputy governor of the
central bank, told the press.
It said the value of the central bank's reserves had shrunk by
more than 200 million Taiwan dollars ( 6.56 million US ) over the past
two days owing to the plunge of bullion prices touched off after
Swiss government experts recommended the sale of gold reserves.
Their recommendation has met strong opposition in Bern.
The central bank currently owns about 85 billion dollars in
foreign exchange reserves, including 13.60 million ounces of the
precious metal.
The China Times Express said the plunge of gold prices had posed
a threat to the longstanding foreign exchange system, under which
gold reserves comprise 20 percent of the total value.
Bullion prices fell as low as about 307 US dollars per ounce on
Monday on international markets, the lowest price for 12 years,
after experts appointed by the Swiss government had recommended
slashing the country's gold reserves by half, or roughly 1,400

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:12 - ID#194311)
the new paradigm
the sun is rising in the east...hahahahahahahahahaha

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:12 - ID#252132)
HK down 8% at opening. Nikkei now down -965

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:12 - ID#431263)
HERR LGB! Try selling that rosy scenario scheiss to the hegemonized people in HK! Hang Seng down another 12%!! The meltdown continues, mein Freund! Better start duckin and coverin!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:13 - ID#401460)
Margin Call
A Bank truck just pulled up to my neighbors home, hooked up to it and pulled it away.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:14 - ID#252132)
Down 8 - 10 - 11-15. Take your pick.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:15 - ID#7568)

You appear to be bullish, just looking for the next buying opportunity. A few weeks back a 10% correction was what you were looking for yet now you have revised that to 20% because things have gotten a little volatile. You have lowered your sights not because of any 'fundamental' change but just because things look a little scary out there. I am not trying to be critical of your actions, they seem utterly sane and reasonable. However, consider for a moment Ma and Pa mutual fund holder who is not out and looking in for a buying opportunity. They are watching their little nest egg crumble. You, with nothing to lose are reacting emotionally, how do you think those with money on the line are going to take this? They too are thinking that it would be nice to sit and watch from the sidelines a little to see how this shakes out. Problem is, if you're in now, out is a word that may well have no meaning at all.

Having traded commodities for a long time I've seen many markets which just lock up and reopen some days down the line. Stocks these days are just like commodities run wild, totally detached from real value. It looks like they are making a commodity like readjustment.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:16 - ID#30116)
Dow 30 in 15 minute bars;

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:16 - ID#431263)
JHERR HIGHRISE! Just so they left his wife and kids with some gold!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:17 - ID#401460)
Home Starts Up
How would you like to be home builder with 20 to 30 spec homes out there right now? How would you like to be his Banker with 50 builders as customers. Freak Out Time!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:17 - ID#255190)

You guys are having waaayyy to much fun at others expense here.

Byron - What do the numbers you posted mean?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:18 - ID#431263)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:18 - ID#30116)
D.A. -- How do like the $TRIN chart? Interesting little spike near the shutdown, eh?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:19 - ID#289349)
gold up 5.00 per oz. in the last 2 hours per kitco 24 hour gold graph.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:19 - ID#26793)
Hong Kong 9330, down 11.2%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:19 - ID#31868)
D.A.: That last post makes sense, the last part in particular for this next thought. The market has not been realistically valued for sometime now, neither have the metals.

If the metals move upwards just to meet their respective real values they have to move up quite a bit. Even with the market clanking. IMO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:20 - ID#57232)
@Home -- gold stock rally - when?
D.A.: Your scenario is -
1 ) US market crash/severe correction -
2 ) deflationary shift in the economy -
3 ) print dollars,etc like crazy -
4 ) inflation and precious metals rise.
Won't that take some time to happen? Months? And what if the dollar drops? What then? Interest rates go up, because AG wishes to save the dollar before the market? He may have some difficult choices. I'm just asking because I don't know the answer - short term. Long term we know what will happen.
One thing I think we can all conclude -- he won't announce a rate hike in October, because someone else did the dirty work for him.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:21 - ID#25588)
Nailz - Timing is everything.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:21 - ID#433171)
The nonbelievers will become believers when gold rockets up and everyone including Uncle Charlie runs down to stand in line to buy gold and find it's sold out. Recommendation, buy now or miss the ride. There is a small window open so climb thru or sit back and watch the rest make money.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:21 - ID#431216)
Nailz.Gold stocks seem to be getting hammered
along with the other equities so if
your bullish gold now is a good time to be
aiming and firing.Some here,and I invite them to
disagree with me, would probably think it rash
to leap in here but since I heve NEVER seen more negative
sentiment towards a market,gold,I have to assume now
might be a good time to buy!...IMHO

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:22 - ID#403267)
DA, congratulations on your calls ( also to nick and Puetz etc. ) for this debacle in the markets. Saved me from being creamed:- ) . What is your view of the metal markets tomorrow, especially an entry point for silver or silver options? Thanks

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:22 - ID#31868)
Highrise: How about all those brand new homeowners looking down the pipe of that looooooooooooooooong mortgage. I wonder if Mr. Greenspan and Mr. Bubble are having a heart to heart right about now.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:22 - ID#391195)
ELF.....Thanks to you....I have been able to check in every few days and mostly read and not post....Have been real busy with sideline business... Yes, it is interesting today !!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:23 - ID#431263)
HERR SILVER! YOU'RE RIGHT, MEIN FREUND! Looks like $309 spot might be the BOTTOM for this move!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:23 - ID#30116)
LGB -- Look at my 21:10 $TRIN chart, That was a market of all SELLERS. Does anyone know what the put/call ratio was today? Did we have dippy action going on in the option department? Ugly, ugly...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:24 - ID#401460)
Take the HIT
Allen this no fun. I have witnessed and lived through a couple of these and they are not pleasant - but you have to have a bit of humor in order to survive. We all warned and were warned of this happening. People still are ignoring the events. Some people just want to take the hit. "It is just a "DIP"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:24 - ID#252132)
Down 8 - 10 - 11-15. Take your pick. ......numbers represent the various quoted % down on HK by poster at Kitco. : ) The numbers were all over the board. So take your pick: )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:25 - ID#348286)
HK: -1348.97 -12.85%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:26 - ID#356163)
Can anyone reccomend a source that updates the Nikkei 225's action reliably? at it seems they always take forever to update.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:27 - ID#20135)
The markets are falling into place. Now what we need to watch the currencies - especially the U.S dollar. The other currencies are shaky, now watch the dollar... how much confidence will the dollar has in the U.S. dollar.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:28 - ID#289349)
HK down 13%. Geraldo has proclaimed a "financial disaster".

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:29 - ID#391195)
"FIRE" Is Close
GREG....Also some time ago on this site I mentioned that ones physical position should be well established and the position taken to leverage when the time was right. My reference to "fire" will be to take a leveraged position.My physicals are already banked. You might want to read some of the strategies used on Vronsky's site.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:29 - ID#431216)
Panda.Thanks for the TRIN chart!I was out working
,building things, this really illustrates the
steepness of the decline and witness the EAST
tonight...YIKES!!!and then there was the second

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:29 - ID#400248)
Budding gold bug
If I wanted to bet that gold was going up what would be a good bet and how would I place it?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:30 - ID#30116)
I loved the last line of this story, ( it's a short one )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:31 - ID#347457)
@ steve Puetz - your day may have come
Folks, I am not a market analyst, but I know a bit about the fear and I smell the fear all around. Come to think of it, this live coverage of HK may have been a dumbest thing they could come up with. First, most of the guys learned about today's drop on the way home, then we feed them about "it was due to HK problems", and finally we show them live coverage as HK keeps dropping additional 12+ percent. What does it tell to Joe Doe?! "Gee, I guess it'll continue on Wall Street, pick up the phone and sell, sell, sell!!"
No, it's not 1929, it's different, it's global and it may be the same proportion. LGB, I want to see you buying at 6700, you may loose some ( or all ) of your past gains.
Steve your day may be here!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:31 - ID#255151)

Time to call in the rescue team. This patient is haemorrhaging rapidly. Dr. Greenspan, it's your call.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:31 - ID#401460)
ForeClosure Time - Sell The Kids
tolerant1: YES, I was just going to mention how would you like to have signed a contract on a $500K home, with a 50% mortgage, the rest in cash from the sale of your market investments. You signed the contract last month and were planning on paying the Contractor in cash from the sale of your stocks this week. That would make your butt pucker.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:32 - ID#30116)
The story;

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:33 - ID#57232)
@A Goose
I agree -- the dollar is a key variable - how do we find out about the dollar index -- my service-Telescan- only gives the dollar index once a day. Eyeballing from the german mark, Japnese yen etc. is difficult.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:33 - ID#255190)

D.A. - I just had a chat with 'ma and pa' prior to loing in here. She was a trace apprehensive. He was oblivous. The news outlet is their only source. So watch what's on the news to determine what they will be thinking. At this point a few are starting to wake up. Most are still asleep or just now stirring. Yada, Yada, Yada say the video-heads.. market dropped but we expected that.. told you that.. all is well. Ma and Pa are get a queasy feeling but have NEVER DONE ANYTHING BEFORE BUT PUT MONEY IN. They do not know that they have the option to move their assets within the fund families they own. They are truly sheep in this situation. Having never done a transfer, they just watch.

Yes, the brokerage and Mfund phones are melting. But most people who have signed up for a mfund monthly investment plan haven't called them yet. They will just sit there until one of their friends or family starts to talk to them about it. I seriously believe that less than one third of the ma and pa's know that they can do anything other than groan about their losses.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:34 - ID#431263)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:34 - ID#30116)
``People are going to be looking at Argentina and Brazil,'' said Hector Velez, an independent market economist. ``These days
to finish off a country you don't need bombs, you need a couple of mutual funds.''

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:34 - ID#433171)
Anyone that questions golds's role here is a fool. This exactly what the establishment wants you to think. Don't put your trust in something thats been around for thousands of years, trust us The Establishment. Lets get real. If any of you think this is a new era and gold is finished is a FOOL. THATS RIGHT. A FOOL . What will it take to wake some of you up an all out nuclear war or what. Or will you buy it like almost everyone will. Buy high and sell low.

Master Sun
(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:35 - ID#334242)
Brave Heart
" Standing your ground awaiting those far away, awaiting the weary in comfort, awaiting the hungry with full stomachs, is mastering strength"

"A surrounded army must be given a way out"

The engines flamed out at 8200 meters. er what to do!! 5 seconds put the baby into a vertical dive if your not already in a flat spin. Force more air through the intakes and hope to hell that the Bastard starts or just eject now.

Sure am glad I bought the SP 500 Peutz options

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:36 - ID#43475)
It seems that globex S&P 500 trading is "halted". It will be interesting to see what happens when they uncork that baby.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:36 - ID#194311)
World's not my job.
Listen to this yellow was his job to cream all the profits.

Rubin: SE Asia money woes job for IMF
NEW YORK, Oct. 27 ( UPI ) -- Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin says the
way for Southeast Asia to weather its monetary crisis is with help from
international financial institutions.
Rubin told the Council on Foreign Relations in New York today he
thinks ``the international response in Southeast Asia is going to be
organized around the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and
Asia Development Bank.''
He said, ``The question of exactly how that is going to be organized
and what its pieces will be in cases of each individual country is
something that we'll have to work through, all of us will have to work
together, on a country by country basis.''
He repeatedly declined to discuss specifics about Southeast Asia
Rubin said the currency depreciations in Southeast Asia have trade
ramifications in the developed world.
``It is extraordinarily important to do exactly what we have been
doing which is to spend an enormous effort to focus on working with the
IMF, the World Bank and others to re-establish financial stability in
southeast Asia,'' he said.
Rubin said because of the impacts on the United States it is
``enormously important that the U.S. continue to assert leadership in
the global economy,'' adding that it ``is indispensable'' for an
``appropriate and effective international response.''
He said the crisis calls for a better understanding ``in all
quarters,'' if the United States ``is going to be able to do what is in
its own best interest.''

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:36 - ID#285233)
sp500 futures
Anyone?? What are sp500 futures doing; how do you get to it???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:37 - ID#400248)
Help! Goldfinger
Please help me out. If a novice wanted to "buy gold" what would they do?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:37 - ID#431216)
nailz.Thanks for the reply and reference.I do feel
kinda vulnerable since I own some physical and
have concentrated my position in Gold Stocks.
I will continue to build a position in RYO,FSR
and VGZ but looking at Panda's TRIN chart
I think some physical wouldn't hurt!...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:40 - ID#20135)
Haystack :

What country are you in?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:41 - ID#285233)
Heard on CNBC that MF redemptions came in real heavy after the 1st trading suspension. It was too late for MFs to sell to cover. Since most MFs are almost totally invested with no $$$ on hand, some are talking to banks right now to be able to pay today's redemptions.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:41 - ID#57232)
Kiwi: There is another spin to what Rubin is doing. Where is the money coming from that will "save" SE Asia? How many US dollars are we going to print?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:41 - ID#433171)
Stop thinking of excuses and buy some old gold coins or even bullion. At this point your missing the train if you don't get on board.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:42 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Steady --

Haystack -- What's so hard about checking out the web resource link ( above ) and find some gold dealers. Also your phone book. Also a Web search.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:43 - ID#43475)
Haystack, You could start by looking in your yellow pages under coin dealers. Alternatively, you could call up the Swiss government and tell 'em you heard they were having a sale.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:44 - ID#194311)
Haystack; No more bets...
Buy physical GOLD in your hot little hand.

Your Friendly Stock Broker
(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:44 - ID#234128)
Mr. Speculator: Please come up with $10,000, by tomorrow morning, so that you can hold your current margined stock holdings. If you do not come up with the money, I will be forced to sell your stocks at the market price to raise the necessary cash.

By the way, I have 50 other clients under margin call, so please come up with the money, and make this easy on me. And don't file suit against me. And, also remember, that if you don't pay, that I am personnally liable to cover any losses with my own money. You wouldn't want that to happen? Would you?

No, I'm not really Your Friendly Stock Broker, it's an alias. I'm really Steve Puetz. I presented the above story because it's no too far from the truth -- slight variations are being played throughtout the US tonight, and throughout the world.

The question about margin debt on the NYSE. It has increased by $27 billion since April 1997. Here are the figures: April - $99 billion, May - $106 billion, June - $113 billion, July - $116 billion, August - $120 billion, September - $126 billion.

It looks like the margin liquidation has begun. Liquidating $126 billion of margin debt won't be easy. Add to that the much greater leverage in the derivatives marketplace, and the seeds for the greatest financial panic of all time has been set.

Lately, I have come to the conclusion that this crash has the potential to be of the magnitude of the South Sea Bubble collapse -- when South Sea shares collapsed by 80%. If this is repeated by the DJIA, we will see the DJIA lose 6000 points before the end of November -- taking the DJIA down to 2000. At a minimum, the DJIA will fall to at least 4000 before a temporary recovery ( lasting more than 1 month ) begins.

A massive deflationary depression has begun. Gold and silver will be the only safe havens in this environment.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:45 - ID#431263)
HERR JTF! It won't matter! By the time he's done printing the dollar won't be worth the toilet paper it's printed on! Sell dollars! BUY GOLD!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:46 - ID#31868)
Highrise: Ah, yeah! Those poor bastards. I'll tell you something about this that is really wild to me. Several of you folks have mentioned that people are oblivious.

I agree, I have been asking people in a laid back manner what they think of the markets and not one gave me an answer like they even had a clue what they were in, they just knew they were in.

Holy Mutual Fund Batman! I agree with the thought that stipulates the media has made a huge mistake in focusing on this mess. People that might have just thought it will blow over are going to be tossing and turning tonight.

Pro Zak, step right up, gettcha Pro Zak, all you can carry for for a gram of gold folks, best deal in town.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:46 - ID#400248)
Swiss fire sale
Geff, great idea!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:47 - ID#31868)
Kiwi: Sound advice!

irving berlin
(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:49 - ID#423220)
BLUE SKIES AND MARKET BLUES (1929 & 1997) by irving berlin
"Blue Skies" was the most popular song in 1929 - all across the land, but especially in Wall Street.

"Blue skies smilin' at me-
Nothin' but blue skies do I see-
Bluebirds singin' a song-
Nothin' but bluebirds all day long"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:50 - ID#194311)
US toilet paper getting flushed out
USD/DEM 1.72

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:50 - ID#7568)

Glad to hear that the train didn't get you.

I don't have any real strong feelings on what's going to happen to the metals near term. There is a liquidation force out there which marks down all assets at a time like this. It's just simply a function of people selling anything to raise cash for margin calls or whatever. I think that the action in gold and silver today was very good. Contrary to the pundits that call today's small gains bearish I see it as a sign that the market is completely sold out. If you notice the lease rate in gold soared again overnight and is closing in on 4 percent. My metals desk related to me that there was good commercial buying of silver today against fund liquidation. In the gold market any liquidation on the fund side is going to be of short positions.

I have very strong feelings towards the metals markets for the intermediate and long term. The single biggest error in analysis that I see is the near universal concern for deflation. I don't know if this is something contrived by governmental powers wishing to sell bonds or it is just something that people have latched onto because of the endless talking head drivel, but I am 100% convinced there will not be a shred of deflation. In a fiat currency system where the largest debtors control the creation of said paper it is inconceivable that a general deflation will arise. It is about as likely as politicians voting themselves out of office for not doing a good job. In fact it would be virtually the same thing.

When the presses roll to 'shore' up the system, the price of physical assets outside the system are going to go up. Portable ones like precious metals will be all that more dear. The final act in this play does not occur until the governmental debt bubble is popped. This one is the real scary one. It will make the stock market debacle look like childs play. Maybe we can all head up to Ted's and hang out where no one can find us.

Since the metals did not go down today, they are probably immune to any liquidations due to stock market turbulence. If they do start to rise they may go up even faster than they went down. Remember what happened to the bond market in 1987. The day of the crash bonds were actually down all day albeit small. Right after the close the buying started coming in and they took off like a scalded cat. They went up 10 full points with only a small pause for air. A similar move in gold or silver could happen at any moment. If it does, those that are watching will watch in awe.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:50 - ID#433171)
The government cannot stop what is about to happen. They can cushion it but thats about all. Either way people will eventually lose confidence and turn to gold. Don't bet on it, but count on it.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:51 - ID#57232)
@HongKong & Geraldo
Miro: You may be right -- first the newsmedia suppress the troubles in SE Asia, and now it is sensationalized by live coverage of Hong Kong by Geraldo! Geraldo may have done more damage globally in one day than the Hedge funds in months!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:51 - ID#20135)
There are some nice url's but I can't find the one I want right now.

I had abn but it doesn't work now without a password. Would someone help JTF and myself out by giving us a good url for realtime currencies. Thanks in advance.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:51 - ID#31868)
Haystack: I just scrolled down through a bunch of posts. These folks one and all are giving you great advice. Listen to them for your sake.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:52 - ID#261118)
@Puetz'n all
You nailed it! this is one reason we are seeing a sell off in gold stox. People are covering their margin requirements: they are selling what they want LEAST! the mentallity is keep those tech stocks ect.. cause .. well.. THEY'LL COME BACK!! Pride and rationalization; with enemies like these how does anyone survive?, they don't...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:52 - ID#431263)
HERR STOCKBROKER PUETZ! Sorry mein Freund! But ain't gotta no money! Lost it all in that new Lotto game, "DHONGKEY KONG!! Right on, mein Freund! RECHT AN!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:53 - ID#401460)
Gold Chains are Back
I just happened to think that if I saw a guy wearing a gold chain tomorrow, I would think differently of him then I would have a week ago.
I would have to warn him that next week some poor sole may rip it off his neck to buy groceries. Remember that the new percieved value symbol will no longer be a person's margin account but the gold he and his lady wears.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:54 - ID#285146)
Aust -248 -10% HK -1250 Japan -621 New Zea -307 Taiwan -458

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:55 - ID#348286)
Is anybody planning on buying the DOW tomorrow? *** silence ***
Thats what I thought.
Who the hell will buy up all these shares. Seems to me there will be a void of buyers and 1000 down is not out of the question.......

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:56 - ID#249453)
Eldorado: Your 19:41...had to laugh...My charts have had to grow themselves a few more squares to the south, also!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:57 - ID#194311)
like your idea about a good time to free up the weed trade....hey know any good dealers where I pick up some physical?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 21:59 - ID#255190)

Haystack - Firstdetermine your available resources. What can you spare from cash that would be used to pay for loans, expenses to live. Second, find a local coin shop, the biggest in your area. Ask them about the tax situation in your state. Is there a minimum total amount that you need to buy in order to escape paying a sales tax.

Ask about the price breaks and when do you get a wholesale pricing. There are spreads on all these things. You buy at a higher price than they buy back from you at any one time. 3 to 5% pread differential usually. If you buy locally you do not have to hassel with overnighting a cashiers check or how to receive a registered parcel. But you may get a better deal going through a 'mail order' house. Ohters here can give you a few addresses and Bart's site ( Kitco ) could help.

Coins have at least a face value and sometimes a numistic value. LGB likes gold Gaudens though the premium is a bit stiff. Coins also are smaller in incremental weight which is good if you can't buy in kilos. At some point you may want to sell and probably don't want to sell everything you have in one fell swoop.

Silver is low enough in price to be an attractive alternative to gold for those who want to buy at a wholesale premium but don't have the $$$ to do that in gold. Also some here feel that silver have a better upside potential than gold does at this time, so in % terms you could do better than gold, up to a point.

Don't rush it. Its better to miss a few bucks than to rush to get in. Maybe someone here can do a little menoring if you ask nice ( which it sounds like you are asking Goldfinger ) . One last thing: little, fractional gold coins have such high premiums that they really are more of a curiousity than an investment hedge ( IMHO ) . I'd rather buy a good chunk of Silver Eagles or Silver Maple Leafs than a few over priced trinkets.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:00 - ID#431263)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:00 - ID#401460)
Collection Time
badger: NO, the creditors want payment of real value - not paper. They want the real thing. Ease of transfer with no currency calculations that are changing by the second. The loan you paper but want the equivalent of Gold as repayment in a crash situation- I have been there. They will not take checks. Gold is real money. They will ask that guy for his home and Gold chain.

Seagrams, TRW, and SID's Collections out of Youngstown. Good investments?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:00 - ID#194311)
real time currency URL

Lucky Strike
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:03 - ID#318141)
and the Nuggets
Hey, Irving !
Here's another one of yours ( sorry about the lyric changes ) :

I'm dreaming of a Gold Christmas,
Just like the ones I used to know,
Where the gold price rockets,
And fills my pockets,
Just like a golden shower of snow.
Yes, I'm dreaming of a Gold Christmas,
With every stock and bond I've sold,
May your plays be winning and bold,
And may all your Christmases be GOLD.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:06 - ID#433171)
We will all look back several years from now if indeed we live through this
and remind ourselves that this was the worst financial debacle in human history. Just maybe we might have learned something from it so we can set the tone for the next 70 years and future generations.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:08 - ID#30116)
Looks like we're going for limit down in the NDX100 tonight...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:09 - ID#31868)
Kiwi: you shock me, but if I did, I'll bet you would find out fast how much gold is really worth.

irving berlin
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:09 - ID#423220)
the rabbi blesses you
"Lucky Strike ( and the Nuggets ) : REF Your new lyrics to WHITE/GOLDEN CHRISTMAS: my Rabbi blesses you ( :- ) ) )

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:10 - ID#225283)
Re;att recorded message

Callers all over the world will hear the following message in the next few days:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:11 - ID#310407)
Allen gave good advice. Let me add NEVER buy anything from a group called "Family Of Eagles" ( Whopping 100% plus markups on little tenth ounce Gold A's that Allen warned you not to buy ) .

I'm more into the Numismatic coins, but if you want to buy highly liquid silver cheap ( close to spot ) , and not worry about assaying it later and such, Junk Silver coin is a good vehicle. ( 1964 and earlier U.S. Dimes, Quarters, Halves, which are 90% silver ) .

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:12 - ID#400248), silver
Thanks for your suggestions. The silver thing sounds interesting. How about siver or gold futures?

You and others mentioned gold coins. Years ago I bought a few gold coins off of a merchant marine who had got them overseas somewhere and I held them for about 10-12 years and sold them when the POG got up to around $800/0z. I remember selling them and the line ups of people selling there family heirlooms to dealers to melt down. Everyone was in a manic state over the prices. That time might come again. One thing I have to mention is that after I bought those gold coins a couple opf people told me they were conterfeit. I never found out whether they were or not because the dealer I sold them to was so anxious to get them he didn't even look at them closely. So a word of caution to anyone buying gold coins is to try to make sure they aren't conterfeit.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:14 - ID#18968)
@looking for update
hong kong -1350

niky hasn't updated in over an hour. do they have suspended trading

bernard baruch
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:16 - ID#26137)
"times don't change, only people..." bb
IS 1929 BEING REPLAYED THIS YEAR? - by Guest Guru Ure

There is an uncanny similarity between the DOW from January 1920 to April 1930 AND TODAY'S DOW track record. Avoid reading this study at your own peril - GUEST GURU URE:

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:18 - ID#285233)
forward sales
Just a word of caution : Make sure that when buying shares of gold mining companies you absolutely check if they have commited their future gold production at near the current $ levels ( forward sales ) . If so, do not touch them since their upward potential will be extremely limited. Most blue chips companies do that. Some gold mining comp. especially in Australia have their future gold production sold-forward for YEARS in advance.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:20 - ID#43475)
Bloomberg Radio reported that the Jap Govt. has placed limits on sell orders, but the market was still open last I heard.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:21 - ID#255190)

Some here have expressed their concern that I'm just a tad hyper and need to read a few jokes. I have and do enjoy them. Including the jovial red numbers that seem so funny to everyone here that they keep posting them all night long. HA HA HA. What fun. How unfortunate to think that people's real lives are being ruined as the ticks keep going down. I think of Jin and his family. I think of the many who were just inching up out of a subsistance existance. People who had dreamed of sending their children to school to improve their future. Our problem in the US is that we are so fat and isolated from the misery of existence of the other 4 billion struggling individuals who are "out there" that we can't understand how these events have and will severly hurt them all. Highrise, I appreciate that you have been through this before. But has it really touched you like it is touching these poor ones. Or did it just touch your comfort level a bit? As I have posted before here, 'yes we will make a few bucks at this but not enjoy them all that much knowing the difficulties our neighbors are enduring'.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:22 - ID#433171)
Buy mint state 62 $20 liberty gold coins if you can find them if you hurry. I'm not kidding, their getting very scarce. Why buy them. Briefly speaking you insulate yourself from sell off in gold and the government can't recall them because they are a collectable. The coins run about $470 right now if you can locate them.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:22 - ID#348286)
This thing is not over, a true whipeout. HK: -1479.22 -14.09%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:25 - ID#78115)
the japanese take an hour break for lunch

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:25 - ID#194311)
Allen...hear, hear
This isn't really fun, just euphoric vindication it'll wear off and then we'll be back to our conservative selves.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:25 - ID#255190)

Haystack - I, at this time, would not touch paper contracts of PM's with a ten foot pole. All you have is the paper - a promise. There is some much over extention of the options on the low stores of physical in the warehouses that its anyones guess what might happen if it was all called due. I'd stick with the 'stuff', but then again maybe I'm just paranoid, eh?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:26 - ID#31868)
I truly believe that these trading stops should be outlawed. Instead of letting this thing take it's natural course and getting it over with, they prolong the inevitable and the only one's making a buck are the brokerage house and brokers.

It will be a quiet holiday season in Lemmingville this year.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:27 - ID#69191)
Lookin' pretty gloomy! See below...

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:27 - ID#284170)
Update on Hong Kong, Sth Korea, Australia, New Zealand
Exit the hatches mates! Lots of puts on the Dow tonight eh??
HONG KONG 9037 ( down 14% )
STH KOREA 498 ( down 6% )
AUSTRALIA 2244 ( down 9.38% )
NEW ZEALAND 2162 ( down 12.46% )

Bob M
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:28 - ID#26059)
No one wants to sell US gold pieces right now..most people are into them too deep...I still, if your looking for a bullion play buy common date slabbed gold..but I still feel the rarity factor will make you a lot more money in the long run....but before you leap, know what your getting into.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:28 - ID#225283)
Tuesdays Bond Auction
Train kept a rollin all night long..Train kept a rollin all knight long.....
What are your feelings on the auction Tuesday...
Demand should be high...but the offering is massive...what are your feelings on this effecting yields....OZ bond at low of 5.8% I hear

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:28 - ID#18968)
@maybe there's hope
Just to stubborn and refusing to give up the ship, I bought a call option on Friday when the market was about $8 down. The option was worth alittle less at the close of trading. The market closed up almost $4 today, however, the value of the option increased by 50%. Maybe somebody knows something.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:29 - ID#289349)
@I feel your pain
You know, if this mess wipes out the life savings of my co-workers at work, it will be kinda hard to feel sorry for them. For the last two years they have ragged me about my investing in PM's with comments like how much did you lose this week? HA! HA! HA! Well guess what guys, it's PAYBACK TIME!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:32 - ID#261118)
@ T1
Hong Kong has nooooooooooo trading stops; trading goes on no matter the outcome.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:32 - ID#431263)

Na Hearadh
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:32 - ID#352180)
Haystack: From the Golden Mist of the Isles
MS62 Liberty's are better than Saints and if you can locate nice MS62/63 $20 Libs which are truly scarce, you'll make a killing in the upwave.

Dates? Try any date with a New Orleans mintmark. Also, the 1888, 1889 and 1890 Philly strikes are very undervalued.

Follow this link for the latest population report on these $20 winners.

P.S. Unless you know how to grade coins very well, stick with the Certification services ( PCGS or NGC ) . Otherwise, you may as well be buying the dips in HK tonight. HAHAHAHA!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:33 - ID#348286)
Monday October 27 7:44 PM EST

Rubin sees need for fast resolution of Asia crisis

NEW YORK, Oct 27 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said that there is ``clearly a serious issue'' with respect to finanical instability in Southeast Asia that needs to be resolved as soon as possible.

In a taped interview with the Nightly Business Report aired in New York, the Treasury Secretary said, ``We have to work with the World Bank, the IMF and countries in the region to re-establish financial stability as quickly as possible,'' referring to the International Monetary Fund.

The interview was taped earlier Monday.

Later, in a live statement, Rubin confirmed that he was in touch with financial officials around the world and that the United States would continue to monitor financial markets.

In the taped intervew, Rubin said it was in the interest of every party -- the United States, Japan, the global trading community -- to ``focus with great intensity'' in restoring stabilty to Southeast Asia.

Stock markets worldwide fell sharply on Monday. A 5.8 percent drop in Hong Kong's Hang Seng Index paved the way for a 7.2 percent plunge in the Dow Jones Industrial Average. The Dow plummeted 554 points, the most ever, in a session halted twice when the drop triggered circuit breakers on the New York Stock Exchange.

Rubin also called on China to keep an open policy on Hong Kong -- where much of the recent turmoil has occurred.

``I think the overwhelming message ... is that sound policy and open markets lead to growth,'' Rubin said. ``What we have to do is stay on the path and not get off the path.''

Meanwhile, Rubin said Japan still needed to fix its huge trade surplus.

``Prime Minister Hashimoto said at the beginning of the year that his objective was to have domestic-led growth and also to avoid sustained significant increases in their trade imbalances and that is a challenged that has not been met,'' Rubin said.

``And I think it is very imporant they meet that challenge. It's important for themselves and important for the rest of the world,'' he said

The Treasury Secretary praised Germany for ``getting back on the growth path.''

``It makes the point that in all these countries, it is in the enormous interest to re-establish a successful domestic economy,'' he said.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:34 - ID#261118)
@ home
Remember, "somewhere" said: you may find you get what you want,but you won't like it...

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:34 - ID#364121)
@camp david
After two months of using the term Toliet Paper, I, m glad you now
understand what I was refering to. Thats what stock cerificates are!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:35 - ID#285233)
S&P 500 down the limit?? NSDQ100 down 2600 - how much down for nasdaq tom.morn.??anyone??

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:35 - ID#255190)
@Silver & Kiwi

Silver, they deserve it. But go easy on em OK.

Kiwi - Yes I know. I'm not sitting around grumpy here. Just pondering the people side of this screen of numbers in order to reign in morbid enthusiasm.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:36 - ID#255151)

The hemorrhaging continues, no matter how you spell it. $3-1-0 is an S-T-E-A-L

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:38 - ID#433171)
All those nice circuit breakers kept this market proped up all these years that created a huge bubble that won't be resolved only at the cost of the average citizen. The standard of living is going to go into the sewer very quickly. We are already in the pipe headed there now. The people that don't protect themselves may never recover from what's about to happen.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:41 - ID#285233)
Hong Kong under 9000
Hong Kong now under 9000 and dropping!!!!!!!!!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:41 - ID#255190)

Good night all. Wake me when its over, eh? Article mentions dollar weakness due to concerns about its "health". German Mark seems to be taking an initial leadership position against the dollar. Soros you dirty devil dog you. Turning against your adopted country like that.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:41 - ID#348286)
The rout resumes: NK: -664.53 -3.90%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:42 - ID#30116)
FWIW, I think the trading halts do more harm than good. In this intial 'test' of the halts, the first one ( 350 pointer ) in theory, should have slowed the selling down. It didn't. Then the second one was 'hit'. So they closed the market. F*****G brilliant. Now what do you have? Investors who don't know what their securities are worth. How many sell orders are pilling up now, as we chat here? Tomorrow should be real interesting. I wonder, how many credit card 'loans' have just gone in to default as a result of todays market action? Liquidity anyone? Let's not forget Bob Rubin giving the, "All is well.", speech. Yes, the clearing houses are working, ... today.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:46 - ID#7568)

Consider the following sampling of retail investors:

This is unreal. Can all these people be on drugs?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:46 - ID#285233)
Goldfinger:to protect from what is coming; but how??? Financially, do you think that shares of gold mining copm. will go down the drain too????

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:47 - ID#252219)
@International Markets Indexes
Here is the site for active quotes to the International Market. Note times give.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:48 - ID#7568)

Platinum One
(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:52 - ID#227223)
State of Wondering
D.A. poste that the PM's did not go down today. Someone please clarify the definition of PM at this site. Is platinum not a precious metal? If it is, or isn't, is there not comment ( s ) to be offered on its prognosis for recovery? Some dialogue on the short and long term role of platinum as this market 'correction' plays out would be greatly appreciated and any comments respectfully received.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:52 - ID#7568)
Night all. Got to get some sleep. Tomorrow will be something else.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:53 - ID#31868)
I really hate to say this, but if for some reason any of you have to go to a brokerage office for anything I would be wearing Kevlar underware. My gut tells me we are going to hear about lemmings going postal with automatic weapons.

This is going to be mind blowing for lemmingville. What! I thought I was going to make 30% for ten years and retire in a Visa commercial.

Least ordered sandwich in 1998..............the Rubin

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:57 - ID#348286)
Im cuttin out too. Enough excitment for one day.
More to come tomorrow...........

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:57 - ID#201238)

To Pyramid and all - My post of 19:54, maybe you should read it again. My point is that Soros is NOT a political figure like Bush, but a powerful financial force. I tried to tell you what I think he is doing but obviously not without Clarity of vision. Soros moves his money and thus his fund's money very adroitly. First he shorted the SE Asia currencies, then he bought huge amounts of US Bonds to take advantage of the flight to 'quality'. Today he has apparently sold a large part of his bond holdings. My point is - where will the money go? In 1993 he bought a large position in gold and it Newmont, he might have sold his position in gold, but he only sold a little of his Newmont ( at about 60 per share ) ( his cost is about 39 per share ) : therefore, is he going to sell currencies?, bonds? S&P futures? or BUY GOLD!!!!!!!

Can I be ANY MORE CLEAR??????

Look at DA's 21:50 post for help.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:58 - ID#431263)
HANG SENG DOWN 1575 ( -15.01% ) to 8922!! Almost a 50% retracement from 16,800!!! Could we be gettin' close to a .....NO!! Currency hasn't even begun to detach from the US $ yet! PACKERS 14 PATRIOTS 10 GO PACKER GOLD!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:58 - ID#18968)
@what there thinking now
You bet the clinton admin. is painting a good picture.
Who wants to be president when the markets tanks. They've been playing the great savour for 6 years. You can bet her husband and rubin are setting around with their N*TS in the throat tonight.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 22:59 - ID#401460)
Freight Train is here
Allen ( USA ) : I am not making fun of those people, and if I gave you that impression I am sorry. I am purely relating the potential and eventual scenarios. I have been there I didn't think it was funny then and I don't' think it is funny now. I am saying that we are all but for the grace of God only a few points from that same situation.
The Stories I posted are events that actually have happened to myself, friends, and I am sure many others before and after us. My post are directed at those who create situations as the one we all find ourselves. You talk of us making money at others expense, I really don't know what you can be referring to, Gold has not gone up in months. And even if it had so what. I am in the RED, with respect to Gold.

I am upset that many are getting screwed by a few. They ripped us off in the "Rust Belt", They Ripped us off in the "Oil Patch" They created the Savings and Loan Crises with the Tax law of 86; and now this.

Industrials, High tech, Bank, and Gold stocks are all down - Go Figure. The only thing that is up are their Bonds. Everyone has been warned of this situation and if you had read my earlier post, where I stated that I choose not to sit on the tracks when I see a freight train Coming. Well it just came through town and it is a long one - CHOO! CHOO!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:00 - ID#287279)
The average Joes are not concerned, and they are going to get smoked! I feel sorry for All of us. This will affect everybody.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:03 - ID#287207)
Markets are dropping buy 100's soon thousands of points and gold is at 312.95. Where is the store of value. How come the TSE gold index is dropping with the rest of the market? Anybody got an answer?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:03 - ID#287279)
You're funny.

walter winchell
(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:04 - ID#24364)
Mr & Mrs America, the US Secretary of the Treasury just issued a statement: "U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said that there
is "clearly a serious issue" with respect to finanical instability in Southeast Asia that needs to be resolved as soon as possible. Upon hearing this dramatic statement, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is recorded to have blurted out: "NO SHIT!"

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:05 - ID#201238)

So Tolerant 1, how does a Rubin sandwich taste with tequilla? May be we should all enjoy one!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:11 - ID#431263)

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:11 - ID#431263)
YEH! TSE IS PAPER!! THE PAPER GAME IS OVER!! ONLY GOLD WILL RULE AND ONLY WHEN PEOPLE LOSE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR WORTHLESS PAPER! It's all a process of conversion! Some nuts are HARD to CRAAAACK!! Gold stocks will have their day in the sun but only those that are UNHEDGED WITH CHEAP SAFE PROVEN RESERVES IN THE GROUND! ( Like LHG, LIHIR, VENGOLD ( VENGF ) ) And only when gold PROVES ITS WORTH BY CLOSING CONVINCINGLY ABOVE $340 on a weekly close!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:11 - ID#386276)
GCZ7 up $5.80

Margin lending ammounts from memory
under $100b 6 months ago
$110b 4 months ago
$125b 2 months ago
$135b 1 month ago
I read an article awhile back that potrayed these sort of figures. I hope someone can find the proper figures.
What is very disturbing about these figures is their rapid acceleration of late. A 50% increase over the last 6 months of this bull market. Presumably this vast increase was put in after the march lows. Which means that $40b plus went in to the market above 6700. Once we break that figure watch out.

Another weird bit of info I heard yesterday. From a book by Larry Niven.
Roughly translated it went along the lines of:
If there was a total breakdown of the transport system in London, in 1910, it would take one week before people started to die from hunger.
In 1970 1 & 1/2 days, and in 1990 3 hrs.
I wonder that this sort of quantum time measuring method, might not be applicable in todays markets. It also bears reflection in regard to Y2K

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:16 - ID#31868)
Arden: That's why I love Tequila - anything tastes good.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:18 - ID#390275)
Right now the big money is buying gold. They want to buy in big volume and buy cheap. The Swiss announcement was already 12 months old and never had an effect before. When the big money finishes buying, gold will go up.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:18 - ID#57232)
Selby ( @Toronto ) :The gold stocks are going down mostly because so many are now getting out of stocks. If there was a stong gold bullion rally it might be otherwise. If you have gold stocks, you may need to wait months or longer before they go back up. They will, but not as fast as you or I would like.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:19 - ID#402309)
Break out the summer sausage and the cheese: Packers 21 Patriots 10

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:19 - ID#225283)
Ian Simpson's man on the street story

Thanks for the post. These morons have really been brain washed. I cannot beleave the number of "buy and hold retail believers" ...even under the current situation...I can only assume that they are towing the party line...I hope they aren't that stupid...If one had bought and held across the board over the years they would not be in very good financial shape...The large retail houses always use the buy and hold story but they often assume that the initial purchases were following a bear market. Never before. Just imagine how well JIN O PUBLIC would do if they got out early the beginning of the bear.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:20 - ID#37256)
@place your bets now
what are the odds hong kong will hit -2000 before close and what are odds Wall Street will suspend withing the first hour.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:21 - ID#373204)
Well the one shoe dropping is the stock market.
The other will be the $dollar!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:23 - ID#402309)
Vegas: One half of your proposal is looking better all the time:

Hong Kong Hang Seng 11:19PM 8794.78 -1703.42 -16.23%
Japan Nikkei 225 11:21PM 16317.38 -720.98 -4.23%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:25 - ID#151412)
currency problems
From CNNfn:
Meanwhile, in currency trading the dollar fell
sharply against the yen, from 121.80 at Monday's
New York close to 120.40 this morning, while
Japanese government bonds rose to record levels as
investors sought a safe haven in the face of the global stock sell-off.
The dollar was also falling against the mark dropping from 1.7455 on Monday to 1.7230. Traders
said the mark appeared to be emerging as a safe haven
currency as Asian financial turmoil sparked doubts
about the dollar's health.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:29 - ID#310180)
The Hang Seng is no more. It is completely gone. The Exchange
has been permanently closed down. It no longer exists.
Done. Kaput. Zonked. Out to lunch. DOA.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:32 - ID#201238)

Ok, so don't read my post at 19:54. Gold now up 2.10 after being down 2.00, Bonds uo 1.25 points, S&P 500 down limit 15.00, if it stay there Dow opens down a slight 175 or so, but don't worry Bill will it it be OK.

Man on the Street
(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:33 - ID#345257)
Talked to ten people at work today who own mutuals. All are saving for retirement, 10 to 30 years down the road. Not one single, solitary person said they would cash in any funds no matter what happened in market. All were resigned to ride it out, no matter how long it took. I think many of you are victims of your own imagination. Sure, there will be a bear market. Sure it will wipe out billions. But ma and pa mutual investor won't be feeding any panic by redeeming their nest eggs.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:33 - ID#433171)
Gold is about to explode. Anybody that has'nt bought yet do so now before it becomes "DEAR". The system is flawed and when it breaks hard you won't be able to find gold anywhere in sight. No one is gonna want to sell their gold. If you wait you will be left out.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:35 - ID#259160)
Gold Stocks
Selby...Re yours of has been my opinion US gold stocks are grossly over valued, look at ABX, it would take $400 gold to give them anywhere close to a respectable PE.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:36 - ID#31868)
If you think about it the Rubin puppet was not talking to the people in the US. His worst fears are being realized as the dollar drops and the market gets clanked.

Beatle's melody

Yesterday.....all my treasuries seemed so far away.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:37 - ID#347332)
TO Vegas;
only 365 points to go.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:37 - ID#401460)
The Dollar
$ilverbug ( currency problems ) : Could this be it?
Dollar falling agaisnt Asian currencies. Their going to the Mark. How much longer will they stay with the Bonds.
The dollar was having a little problem holding earlier today.
I don't see the little guy, the small investor, going into bonds. I am not sure they understand them or know how to get in them.
There was an earlier post raising the question Does the small investor know he can switch his
investments, does he know how and does he know what would be best to move into - before its to late.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:38 - ID#31868)
Man in the Street: Hand them a pair of dimes and see if they get it.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:38 - ID#344290)
I mostly lurk here and I come back after away a week & find I've taken a big hit - but thanks to you fellow Kitcoites it isn't what it would have been, for which I'm grateful - THANKS!! To Mr. Peutz - sir, I salute you, not only for your call, but also for hanging with it in the face of scathing hectoring!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:40 - ID#20135)
Timing is everything. Some people are buying and going to buy lots of the U.S. treasuries and bonds. Those actions are going to drive down our interest rates. The lower interest rates are going to hurt ( drive down the U.S. dollar ) . People like Soros will make the move out the U.S. market smooth as silk. Most will end up holding bonds in a dropping currency. Then the rush from the U.S. and around the world will be to pm's. ( IMHO ) . As is happening around the world, the situation will snowball on itself. BYE, BYE MISS AMERICAN PIE ....

The lucky ones will be established in bullion and bullion stocks early on.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:40 - ID#401460)
Bernie ( Gold Stocks ) : ABX I think has sold ahead @ $400/oc. ?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:42 - ID#433171)
When the dow melts down below 5500 they will all sell. Every single one of them. Wall Street is finished and the country is bankrupt and so is the world. Also as the world sits there and watches gold slice through $1000 stocks will be the last thing on everyones mind. Your toast pal.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:42 - ID#151412)
I'm thinking bearish thoughts on Silver.. if the economy follows the market down, silver demand will plummet, and supplies of old silver, i.e. scrap sold by individuals to pay rent will increase ( It's the fundamental's, stupid ) . Ditto for the PGM's since they are primarily used for industry. Gold will suffer too if we go into a deflationary period. No I don't believe that the U.S. dollar is going to collapse, and that I would be forced to trade gold coins for food at Dean & Deluca's.
Market opens down 185 tomorrow, and then bounces up from overnight repos from Fed pumping enormous liquidity into market. The only possible flaw is that market opens down limit within first 30 min,. and trading is halted, because sell orders pile up until market starts again

Some safety valve....

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:42 - ID#386276)
Avid chatter and there's lots more

Looking for confirmation of Dial Data stuff. They have NY "up" issues at 182 on 400,000 shares, and "down" issues at 2937 on 683,360,000 shares. Can someone tell me if this is close. Thanks.

there are CME margins and actual broker's margins. CME is up to what? 20k Something now for overnight. Was told that some commodities brokers are requiring 40K - 50K to DAY trade spoos through tonight and in morning.... I would imagine a majority of traders of independent ilk are not prepared to spill 40k into a margin just to trade one contract in a precarious market. For covering, the volatility is going to be incredible for any trade entered into tommorrow, making it unlikely as to where in the market one might be filled because of thinning, all of course if this thing being told me is running rampant in commodities brokers. I don't know-- call and find out. I didn't get raised cause I'm short with healthy profit, but one broker told me he didn't care if I was the Lord himself if I wasn't already in, I'd be required to pony up full margins at least just to day trade. anyway, something to think about.

Seems like the day traders just got kicked off their roost for a stretch.
$40k margin to trade 1 contract.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:44 - ID#69191)
Do you BELIEVE this guy???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:44 - ID#347457)
@Man on the street
Hey Man, you must be talking to different crowd than I do. In my company ( high tech consulting ) most of the people have a significant money in 401 and 403K accounts. Most of them have been moving money out of stocks in the last few days. Many of them said they will move the rest based on what will happen in Asia tonight.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:45 - ID#206358)
REUTERS:Dued to the fear of meltdown of the hang seng stock market,some fund shiefting the fund to gold!gold price rebound a bit.The u.s dollars weaker to day!still,the south east asia currencies look shanking too!LUNCH BREAK!The cnn news reportED that the afternoon looks slide down further in HANG SENG! ...THE RECESSION OVER HERE START EARLY THAN THE MONSOON SEASON.....SAD AND WET ....
Still wondering,thinking,.....mouning...eeeeezzzzzzz

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:46 - ID#401460)
one billion shares wow
Nick ( @Aussie ) : 900,000,000 + for day I think.
A record would have hit a Billion if not closed down.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:47 - ID#347332)
Wake up. Gold prices crashed friday on Swiss proposal to sell as much as
45.0M ozs.the equivalent of 15 years of Barrick's annual production.
Gold prices took it on the chin Friday following a Swiss government
committee report suggesting the possible sale of as much as 54.0% of
its gold reserves, or 45.0M ozs. ( 1,400 metric tons ) out of a total of
83.3M ozs. ( 2,590 t ) held in reserve. This would be the equivalent of
15 years of Barrick's annual gold production of 3.0M ozs., and
Barrick is the largest producer in Canada. According to a Bloomberg
report, the central bank would transfer as much as 45.0M ozs. from
its accounts to the government and Switzerland's 26 cantonsthe
Swiss National Bank's main shareholderswho could then gradually
sell the gold on the market. The committee also said that the country
should do away with the gold standard, which is still part of its 1848
constitution but no longer administered. Its abolishment, however,
would represent one step in paving the way for eventual gold sales
since the gold standard stipulates that currency be converted into
While the government welcomed the proposals, it reiterated its
current plans to revalue or sell only about 12.9M ozs. ( 400 t ) of the
central bank's gold reserves, mainly to finance the previously
announced SF7.0B ( US$4.7B ) Swiss Foundation for Solidarity. The
Swiss National Bank values gold at SF4,595/kg., or about US$118/oz.
Nonetheless, the government said the finance ministry and the central
bank will now draft a proposal that will be presented to parliament in
1998, ahead of a vote by the general electorate in the second quarter
of 1999. Note that none of the gold should be sold until approved in
this election.


(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:47 - ID#251147)
CNBC has reported that the Euro gov't are planning to flood their financial mrkts with liquidity if they are down 7 % on Tuesday. I think they'll have to. Very few mrkts in Asia are down less than 7%

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:50 - ID#364147)
@ ocean storm
Markets ain't the only stormy thing goin on...Can't access DBC: Anyone know what Dec. gold is @???

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:53 - ID#288424)
Have been short bonds & long gold for last 15 days, options don't expire till Dec, question for you chart hounds, this kind of flight-to-apparent-safety bites, in the past history has it occured for a matter of days only or much longer, do you expect if dollar starts to drop that long-bond prices will fall?

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:53 - ID#347332)
TO Man on the Street;
ma & pa will sell like others and will move in with you.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:54 - ID#252132)
@ Last Call:
DBC shows gold up $1.70

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:54 - ID#402309)
Packers 28 New England 10 ..... The perfect ending to a perfect day!!

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:54 - ID#433171)
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Boy, THE ESTABLISHMENT sure brainwashed you. Silver at these prices is a no brainer. A lousy hamburger for pete sakes costs $5.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:56 - ID#364147)
@ Byron

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:57 - ID#31868)
When the lemmings wake up to the smell of the figment standard gold will be scarce and all this talk of CB selling and supply will go right down the tanker.

There are at least 500,000,000 very nervous people out there capable of buying gold. Do the math. How many ounces do you think all those terrified people will buy.

(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:58 - ID#401460)
Hong Kong CNBC
Australia, If you want some more you just go out and dig up. More Swiss sale talk Etc. Etc. US $320 break even point for Mines.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Oct 27 1997 23:58 - ID#284177)
So the US has a "Goldilocks" economy! Unless I misremember the fairy tale, didn't Goldilocks have a run-in with some BEARS??????
Hong Kong down 16%. Bye Bye Dow!!!! The Asian Stir Fry, is now creating some major tummy upsets. First the Mexican Tequila, now the Asian Stir Fry, next the Eastern European Exit. ( Russia down 8% ) .
Of course, the real game here is for Asia to have their own currency block, remember that!!!