Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:00 - ID#386276)
We should be able to clock the 1billion mark tommorow.

Feels like my two feet are superglued to this old 12' boggie board as I speed down the base of the wave, I look behind me and there is the 'mother******'

WOWWWWW ( :o}}}}}}}}}}}}}

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:00 - ID#227238)
Nick: Your comments regarding the sudden increase in margin requirements to trade Spoos would seem to fall in line with D.A.'s earlier comments. That is, that the SP may have few trades as it finds its way to a new clearing price. ..... A brave new world for stocks that suddenly find themselves in a commodity like world. Lock limit down ..... and pray a lot.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:01 - ID#263196)
Oh no! It looks like the evil bankers have gotten to Milton Friedman, also. ( I believe the remedy is to vote for Lyndon Larouche, who will make sure the dark international bankers don't bring about the end of the world ) . From his book _Money Mischief_ Milt writes:

"There is much confusion about whether the Federal Reserve System is a branch of the government or a private enterprise. That confusion has sparked a host of 'crank' conspiracy literature.

"The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is composed of seven members, all appointed by the president with the aid and advice of the Senate. It is clearly a branch of the government.

"The confusion arises because the twelve Federal Reserve banks are federally chartered corporations, each with stockholders, directors, and a president. The stockholders of each bank are the member banks of its district, and they select six of its nine directors. The remaining three directors are appointed by the Board of Governors. Each member bank is required to purchase an amount of stock equal to 3 percent of its capital and surplus. So, nominally, the Federal Reserve banks are privately owned.

"However, dividends paid on the stock are limited to 6 percent. Any additional income in excess of costs is turned over to the U.S. Treasury ( nearly $20 billion in 1989 ) . The Board of Directors of each district bank names the managing officials of the bank. However, the Board of Governors has a veto power and in practice has often played the major role in naming the presidents of the district banks.

"Finally, the most important policy body in the system, other than the Board of Governors itself, is the Open Market Committee, which has as members the seven governors plus the twelve bank presidents. However, only five of the presidents have a vote at any time, so that the Board of Governors is guaranteed ultimate control.

"In short, the system is in practice a branch of government, despite the smoke screen of nominally private ownership of the district banks."

Wake up, guys. Friedman is the person who has probably lent the most weight to the argument that the Fed caused the depression ( due to screw-ups and POLITICS, NOT conspiracy ) . He has been one of its most thorough and respected critics for decades. In short, central banking is a dumb idea however don't let yourself be fooled by the "evidence" that conspirators are secretly controlling the world. If a centuries-old "cabal" has been orchestrating every election, every recession, every war, why have they still -- after hundreds of years -- failed to eradicate gold as a monetary instrument? Well, believe what you want but please try to limit the damage you're doing to the image of those of us who have LEGITIMATE arguments against the Fed and government intervention in general. P.S. The world is not ending.

Richard Burke
(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:01 - ID#411318)
@NIght on Gulf of Georgia
Ted: GCZ7 closed at 312.5 up 3.9. I often have trouble with DBC so I have backup sources included in my bookmarks. I use as alternate source for various futures - e.g. you use gcz7 to get Dec gold. I use Yahoo finance as alternate source for stocks and indexes. You can set up portfolios of any size and almost any number of protfolios free of charge just by registering. I now use Yahoo as my prime source because you are too limited on DBC. Hope that is of some help. I also use for my five-minute charts for indexes and futures - xau is $xau.x.

Cyb Jeddak
(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:02 - ID#287193)
Dollar is down against the Yen & Mark. The smart money is far from stupid. As the dow prices are unmasked for being overvalued & U. S. dollar strength concerns arise, smart money is flowing into harder currencies. Eventually, it will be clear that gold & gold stocks are the new leaders of choice. All this money looking for a home will find that the portals to the new residence are golden.

Bill Buckler
(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:03 - ID#257234)
Had a quick phone round my neck of the woods in Oz. Couldn't find a Gold dealer who had any bullion coin to sell. One bloke said he sold it all yesterday ( our Monday )

Have you considered the effect of the two market closures in NY for the amazing Hong Kong meltdown? Would be interested in any comments on the new Op Ed I have just posted at

Haven't stopped answering emails all day. Just consider this. If you bought Gold as insurance in $US anytime since July 4, the most you could be down right now is about 6.5%. You are more likely to be down in the region of 4.0% 4.5%. Can you name me a market, with the notable exception of some of the western bond markets, that is not down a LOT more than that? And what, in the considered opinion of esteeemed KITCOITES, is the downside risk on Gold - compared to everything else?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:03 - ID#227238)
$ilverbug: If the Fed pumps liquidity that should offset your deflationary view and have a real negative effect on the dollar. Especially if the Fed also feels compelled to pour dollars on troubled Asian waters at the same time.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:04 - ID#251283)
Yes! I remember, the Bears challenged Goldilocks and she ran away.... to 4500 Dow Street.

Steve - Perth
(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:04 - ID#284177)
Australia down 187. Now 2287. Temporarily stabilising. But will probably drop again tomorrow when the Dow keeps going DOWN.

Steve - Perth
(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:05 - ID#284177)
Australia down 187. Now 2287. Temporarily stabilising. But will probably drop again tomorrow when the Dow keeps going DOWN.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:06 - ID#364147)
@ Richard Burke
Richard: Thankx for the info!!....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:08 - ID#403267)
Selby, as opposed to last spring, I believe that we will see that intrinsic value of gold and silver this fall ( pun alert ) . Just like the dipsters say, this time its different!
Good night all, golden appreciation while you sleep!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:12 - ID#257148)
Relax, everyone, it was a false alarm
huge volume on kitco today!!

Take comfort all, The Minister of Finance of New Zealand, The Hon Bill Birch, just on evening news " The New Zealand Economy is in great shape. There is no reason for a repeat of crash of 87."

So sleep easy y'all

ha ha

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:17 - ID#259160)
HighRise....You are right, it would take $500 gold to make their earnings respectable!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:22 - ID#364147)
@ Aurator
Hi mate!...hell of a storm blowin here....good ta hear everything is OK ( goofy grin thing )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:22 - ID#433171)
How much money do you have because if you have any you either got very lucky or you inherited it and are about to lose it. I'll try and consider the source here but you must be one of the Johnny come latelys to the investment world. If the Swiss where going to sell their gold in 2 years their not going to tell you unless they want to take advantage of little creatures new to the world of investing. I don't know where you have been and what you have done in life but listening to the media is going to write you a death certificate to your nest egg whether you earned it or not. If you want to be like a little sheep going to slaughter then you did it to yourself. Let me tell you something I grew up in the school of hard knocks and know how to lose alot of money. Before you can make money remember you have to know how to lose it first. Losing teaches you your mistakes and believe me I never forgot mine. In the future you will have either see that I am right or wrong. But I have done alot of work on gold and I could write a book on it. Gold is not going to fold. It will be here when we are all dead and gone, but only at a much higher price.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:26 - ID#225157)
Thank you John. I took your 10/23/97 call seriously and sold my Gold stocks before this slaughter. I will be looking to buy after the dust settles.
Thanks for the insight.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:31 - ID#390275)
Mikey, That Swiss announcement is already 12 months old.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:33 - ID#390275)
The Swiss announcement was first made 12 months ago.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:35 - ID#364147)
@ the end
I'm BURNT....g'night ALL......

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:36 - ID#257148)
Good ta see ya, storms? you not just talkin' markets are yer? You crazy kayakman, we got blue skies sunny days and even Hoppy the duck got her ducklings ( tho i suspect the gold coloured one will be the first eaten by the hawks ) there may be a lesson there goldbugs....

The early goldbug gets the chop.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:49 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bill Buckler -- Simply put, I think your new commentary tends to sum it all up quite succintly!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:49 - ID#372157)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:51 - ID#411259)
..... Gold Bear? Me??? .....

Covered all my gold shorts. What I didn't get out of Friday, I covered today. I still don't feel good about buying gold now. I might consider new shorts at the top of a 20 - 30 dollar rally, or going long on a true breakout. Bought some platinum today, likewise silver. With the shake out in the Dow, I feel holding any metal short is a fools folly. Don't have a clue what the equities will do tomorrow, but I feel I'm in pretty good company there. I suspect the vast majority of stock and fund holders will hang tough, repeating the mantra, "Ride it out, Ride it out" Remember, a true shake out in the equities will not spill into the metals for a couple weeks - takes time to get what $ they have left from their stock broker into their bank account. The true measure of the equities will be found in leveraged positions. Whether to make the call or liquidate? We are living in interesting times

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:54 - ID#433171)
Not always true. Admit it your a bear with your eyes polked out. Even if gold took off you still would'nt buy and if you did you would'nt buy till it's too late. The ones that get in a little early always make the most money. Guys like you get on and get back row seat and end up making squat because you could'nt make up your damn mind. Just like most that got in on the tail end of the stock market. Even in this environment most are losing their shirt and it has'nt even got started yet. You must be a new kid on the block.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:56 - ID#372157)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 00:59 - ID#263259)
Relax, Dewds!
Man On The Street re 23:33 post: You are right, of course. Average 401k investors don't hold full portfolios of high flying growth stocks. They own the boring sort of income stocks which just go up in dividend yield when the prices go down. In my company's 401k plan the MOST exciting fund dropped a ho hum 1.6% over the last week. Yawn. Luckily there is gold to keep life interesting! But even ther, I'd bet that there are thousands of other boring people like me who will continue to plow the goldfields using dollar cost averaging...Jeez I bore even myself. ZZZzzzz

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:01 - ID#401460)
Correction Please
Bernie please review our post you have mis-quoted me.

Date: Mon Oct 27 1997 23:35
Bernie ( Gold Stocks ) ID#259160:
Selby...Re yours of has been my opinion US gold stocks are grossly over valued, look at ABX, it would take $400 gold to give them anywhere close to a respectable PE.

Date: Mon Oct 27 1997 23:40
HighRise ( ABX ) ID#401460:
Bernie ( Gold Stocks ) : ABX I think has sold ahead @ $400/oz. ?

Date: Tue Oct 28 1997 00:17
Bernie ( ABX ) ID#259160:
HighRise....You are right, it would take $500 gold to make their earnings respectable!

Bernie I did not say "it would take $500 gold to make their earnings respectable!" I do not know what it would take, $300 or $500. I just think I know that they have sold ahead @ $400
and I think that is why they are preferred over others.

Please reread the previous posts. Thank You

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:08 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ -- I still think that damn silver needs to drop down to/near 4.60 on the Dec contract. Should be happening REAL soon though if it really is going to do it. Then, I'LL feel more comfortable about the real possibilities of a rally in the two metals. As for stocks in the morning, it should be very interesting, with all those sell orders on the desks. But at some point, after who knows how many times the markets will probably get halted, this sucker is going to take a pretty big bounce up to kill some shorts, IMHO. Then a continuance south to kill a bunch of newbie longs. ( Dippers ) . I'd worry about that Jan Platinum should it cross below 400 by more than a couple bucks! It's a long way to 375, with a very short time to get there, with a brief bounce at 390 which may easily fail.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:13 - ID#433171)
When all the disbelievers see gold pop, their lights will turn on but the only problem is they won't see where their going. And even as gold breaks $400 most of them will still be wondering whether to get in or not. And then the bad news is they will be all be buying near the top. When it melts the same is true they won't get out in time. Why, because they did'nt get in early enough to capture the bulk of the profits waiting for more. Good luck who ever you are. You'll need it.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:21 - ID#225283)
Hang seng Fire

Do do do dodue due da due due due Hang FIre..hang Seng FIre. Will they be running for the exits in London?????
AG's surprise-----Where their is smoke.....there are mirrors. You can make book on the fact that the pumps are primed and the press is running at full speed...M1,M2. M3 here we go...up up and away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:22 - ID#263259)
Relax Dewds! Part II
Things aren't so bad for us who lost a measly $10k here and $20k there in our gold stocks today. I heard that Bill Gates is in such bad trouble he's had to file for a Small Business Administration loan : )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:22 - ID#257148)
you stick your finger where??
Goldfinger and welcome to you too, i suggest you read what i posted again, and then take a deep breath - perhaps check what i rant about here - before you make such profoundly incorrect judgements.
And the ones who will buy the dips in the crashes, my oh so learnd friend? What will happen to them.
I merely called for calm, in a salty contrarian auratorian way, so, if you dont like it, please scroll past

clink clink


(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:29 - ID#348112)
Where is the fire

I guess I should dollar cost average into the market!!!!!
What is a bear market?????????????????????
You mean I can sell also...........????????
I think i will just buy and hold.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:39 - ID#433171)
Only those that say they did are liars. They can't and never will. These people are living a fantasy. If your going to invest try and be reasonable. Don't be afraid to buy when things look the worst after a long period of sell offs. I see to many people here trying to pick exact bottoms in the metals here. Very few of these type investors will ever make money and they never will. Buy and be patient, because the metals are about to give fruit.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:41 - ID#318151)
New Zealand is pissing blood tonight

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:41 - ID#401460)
Hong Kong comming back
Good Night All big day tomorrow.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:50 - ID#433171)
Sorry, maybe I misread your post. I guess I don't understand. Are you trying to hand me back my head or am I handing you yours. Or its late and I need to turn in.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:55 - ID#259160)
No Misquote
HighRise re ABX:
When I quote someone I use these "....". You said ABX has sold
their production forward at $400, I said you are right they have
sold their gold forward, which will make it even harder to make
their earnings respectable. They are losing money selling their
production at $400.00! I think it will take $500 gold to make their
PE ratio even close to respectable.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 01:58 - ID#433171)
Who cares. The man in the moon did'nt even say anything.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:13 - ID#257148)
the big sucking sound that you here will be.....
Lurker G'day

you look like someone else i met somewhere, had the same name, anyway, this blood on the streets thing, it's not good for the tourist industry, so enough gore. OK? Any way our Minister of Finance said Don't panic.

No, now really, let's keep this in perspective, I was on the NZSE on the day of the 87 crash, that was meltdown, this, well I think it was Eldo who said it was like the big suck of the tide out before the tsunami, well it sure is a big suck, but I am not sure yet just how big the tsunami will be. It is very hard to judge things from down here, we have had no bubbles here ( apart from property and Personalised Plates and Emus ) since 1987, we have learnt our lesson in NZ. ha ha ha

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:26 - ID#257148)
spring cleaning...
"scuse me while I open the windows and pick some flowers, freshen the air up a little....


Catching up:

Lucky Strike
Thanks for your goldbug verses to old songs, i even try to sing some when no-one is about! I like gold too much to sing in company, especially that bit about a golden shower. I guess it means something else down under ;- )

Thats right, Im not from Texas, but Texas loves me anyway. ( ( from Lyle Lovett ) I live across the road from The Alamo, one of my lifelong ambitions somehow Texas is my spiritual home ( although Ive never been there ) Of course the Alamo of which I speak is a large red barn on a neighbours farm here in Auckland NZ.

Are you referring to Fritz Capras At the-turningpoint in your rubrics? No wonder you are continually challenging yourself and the rest of us with understanding aspects of the gold markets! Looking for new paradigms using the old models, that is probably why I find your posts so stimulating, that, and your obvious inexhaustible energy. Kitco group analysis has taken a great leap forward since you posted. Your input is appreciated - this awerator is awed!

Colleen please report on the popular reaction to the market meltdown news in the people around you, we hear a lot from the americas, sometimes their hysteria is incomprehensible.

Auric got your ears on my anagramatic buddy?

Nicks g'day!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:29 - ID#372100)


(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:31 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Someone posted here recently that they saw a 302-303 Dec gold as support. I'd like to state that I now see why. I too think it to be correct for this time period. THANKS!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:40 - ID#257148)
sinking feeling
Eldorado, sure would like to hear more, if you're up to it..

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:40 - ID#289163)
@Belchin the Blues!

Scuse me while I RELIEVE myself! Heuuuweeeee!! Get me some air freshener!

What are yall so cottin pickin peachy keen about, picken flowers and such... I'm loosin my ass!!! Yeayes, thats rat! Literally loosin it, as in chunks of it are fallin on the floor as I speak! I'm dyin yall!!! Comprende???? I mean I may be dead sundown. Help... Help yall.

Pleeeeeease help??!!! Whats a dyin gold bug to do?????????? Buy, sell or die?????

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:44 - ID#225283)
Danger zone

G'day mates,
I wonder if you grasp the potential danger of a global meltdown.......We are not talking the Mexican bolsa here.
Rubin has already said that the USA will not bail out Asian markets.....But he has previously stated the USA would bail out Japan......The Nipponese are one very thin hair away from the whole house off cards coming down over night...Japan has serious banking problems coupled with a massive amount of investment in the various asian tigers...they cannot hide their huge losses forever...When the truth cmes out...all hell will break loose...This crash will make tulip mania look like a garden party.Would anyone care to buy some bulbs from Holland for only ten ounces of gold. ??????I wonder how long it will be before the "correction kooks" change their mantra.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:45 - ID#225283)
Danger zone

G'day mates,
I wonder if you grasp the potential danger of a global
meltdown.......We are not talking the Mexican bolsa here.
Rubin has already said that the USA will not bail out
Asian markets.....But he has previously stated the USA
would bail out Japan......The Nipponese are one very thin
hair away from the whole house off cards coming down over
night...Japan has serious banking problems coupled with a
massive amount of investment in the various asian
tigers...they cannot hide their huge losses
forever...When the truth cmes out...all hell will break
loose...This crash will make tulip mania look like a
garden party.Would anyone care to buy some bulbs from
Holland for only ten ounces of gold. ??????I wonder how
long it will be before the "correction kooks" change
their mantra.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:49 - ID#431216)
Senator Blukowsky.Buy gold and buckle up!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:50 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aurator -- Parallel trend lines. The last one meets along in that region at this time period. Lower if later. That would probably be the one that goes both ways during the same day. Besides, this move down seems to require another leg down. Also, it is not reacting very well to the equities markets very well either. That move might also be along with the near 20 cent silver move ( south ) that I've been anxiously looking for. Right now, it all makes sense to me. As usual, the market speaks though.

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:51 - ID#289163)
@chokin and them some!
Privateinvestor: Sir, I agree we got a real problema on our hands. The way I see it, we've just entered the 1st inning of this ball game. Where does one put his money at this point in time?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:53 - ID#2082)
Forgive and Clink loudly...oh salty dawg of N.Z. Some here do hear when they read and write right...wait...who is the salty one here I hear

It is good to read your reeds of yuk me...


(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:53 - ID#255285)
Is there a doctor in the house (Of Medicine uh dohhh every other kitcoite has a PhD ;-))))
Senator G'day, dying huh? you need a doctor, what are you eating man? change your diet. Try become a vegetarian, unless you are one, in which case you better eat beef. Who was it who said on this site that the charts don't mean anything? The only thing I know is gold is mine to hold.

Hope it helps BTW there are several MDs here who can help you with your embarassment.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:55 - ID#372100)


(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:56 - ID#225283)
Danger zone

G'day mates,
I wonder if you grasp the potential danger of a global
meltdown.......We are not talking the Mexican bolsa here.
Rubin has already said that the USA will not bail out
Asian markets.....But he has previously stated the USA
would bail out Japan......The Nipponese are one very thin
hair away from the whole house off cards coming down over
night...Japan has serious banking problems coupled with a
massive amount of investment in the various asian
tigers...they cannot hide their huge losses
forever...When the truth cmes out...all hell will break
loose...This crash will make tulip mania look like a
garden party.Would anyone care to buy some bulbs from
Holland for only ten ounces of gold. ??????I wonder how
long it will be before the "correction kooks" change
their mantra.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 02:59 - ID#173274)
@the scene
PrivateInvestor -- The topic is discussed here quite often. Of course, you may also start it up again. Got your 'foxhole' dug?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:01 - ID#173274)
Time to watch a movie on the backside of my eyelids. Later all.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:03 - ID#255285)
sweet sweet sounds
 So glad i yuk you. Which way are you facing? In fact I am writing into a dictation machine and the spelling mistakes are usualy homophones. The software ain't perfect. Now, dunno 'bout you , but I aint homophonic.

Why aren't you panicking like so many of the rest of em? You relaxin' lad?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:05 - ID#431216)
All.Forgive the waste of bandwidth...If you're gonna get bullish gold
it's hard to see what you're waiting for.This time frame ,July-Dec/97,will be featured in text books someday;be in the first chapter!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:07 - ID#225283)

Unreal....I just flashed on a satalite broadcast of a religous ( US christian cable ) station hawking a video tape on the final days..the financial collapse....stating how important it will be to purchase gold coins to weather the sea change....then the catch .....send 29.95 for VHS tape to XXXXXXXX. Looks like they rushed the spot into production just today.

This could do wonders for stoking up the hysteria amongst the naturally paranoid right wing christian coalitionists...a definite change in the momentum has occured in stocks and gold. In the coming days the fat lady will perform in concert with the world markets.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:13 - ID#225283)

sorry to hear that you are losing your ass. I am certain that you are not alone. Just wistle a happy tune like blue skies and all will be okay. ....NOT!!!!!

Big Beaver
(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:13 - ID#262358)
@Beaver's Den
All - Story time.

Credit trends give great cause for alarm especially with world equity markets in trouble as they are now. Credit growth ( debt ) has jumped by 1.5 trillion. Repayment of this debt requires liquidity that isn't available without an increase in the money supply. In other words, there's not enough money to pay back the debt. That's one of the problems facing the bond market where leverage was readiliy available and billions are borrowed for the profitable playing of the yield curve. These loans can't be repaid if bond values evaporate - e.g. Orange County. Bond market worries are a long way from over. A liquidity crisis will strike here the hardest.

D.A. was right on, in his posts of today. ( Arden, too! )

It's going to be interesting tomorrow morning.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:18 - ID#386276)
Panda Eldorado
My source for: advances/decliners/same - for the Amex, Nasdaq & NYSE is out of action. I feel naked without this data and was wondering if you guys had it or could direct me to it. I need the data for friday and monday. I tried 'Bigcharts" but their figures were way out of synch.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:22 - ID#255285)
add a pinch of religion and what you got??
Oh Boy, christian demand for gold, Thanks privateinvestor hmmmmmm, what did this aurasausage say?
We are gonna hear (  ) wierd millenial stuff here (  ) and there on the wing, too late for October.. Perhaps it is all a Vatican Plot. Uhhh Doooh, now I understand, the EMU, the SE Asian Meltdown, The LBMA, The Federal Reserve Board ( which is not federal at all- you guys - you US guys have been had- sorry, I guess you know that ) , it is ALL a big blind. The real power, the real buyer is Naaaah,

Thanks, I appreciate the lesson.

Welcome to the history book, I call them Sages@Pagesdotkitco understandably, the phrase hasn't caught on

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:33 - ID#431216)
Aurator.Yeah I know it's been said
Buy Buy Buy and all it's amounted to is Bye Bye
Bye ...But I'm sure this time it's different.
A basic shift is,IMHO,occuring here between the
equity market and gold ;also been said before
...going north.I hope to you ,as an AUssie, this is not
an offensive concept.Cheers

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:35 - ID#226337)
@what should my strategy be tomorrow morning?

privateinvestor- I read some of your posts earlier and agree with them. Where do you see the gold market tommorow? Whay are you into?

Aurator: What's your take? Time to start buying gold stocks?

Big Beaver: Same question - what should an investor be doing as of tommorrow morning????? Where do you see this going?

Nick, Fl, ??? Same questions.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:37 - ID#225283)
Attn Robert Prechter fans

Could this be the begining of

A Grand supercycle bear market "correction"....destruction of the paper money system....for a bear phase of this magnitude.

I don't think you gold bugs would like the outcome.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:38 - ID#255285)
Umbrage, moi...
Greg, Going North is not an offensive concept, but, my Windy Lake buddy ( you got the same thingie as that Senator? ) being called an Australian is a highly offensive concept.

Notice tho my aussie buddies, I gave your country a capital letter out of respect to you.

a simple apology followed by a donation to widows and orphans will suffice ;- ) )

Big Beaver
(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:44 - ID#262358)
Privateinvestor: Prechter's been preachin for years and yeras... Stick to your story long enough and eventually that cycle will come around. But to the contrary, gold would thrive in such an environment.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:47 - ID#431216)
Aurator.Somehow I thought you were Australian.
My condolences if you are not.Myself I am north,
in Canada.If my posts seem vague and a bit over
enthusiastic it's cause I think the one to two
year upside for gold will dwarf this bottom in
gold.Sentiment towards the yellow couldn't be
much more negative so I guess there's a lot of
potential buyers out there...runnin as fast as
I can.Cheers

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:49 - ID#431216)
Aurator.Donation to follow!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:50 - ID#255285)
from all over to the oasis at kitco
Phil, I am both flattered and concerned that you ask me that question. I forget my manners--- welcome, but as I'm at least awake and not too salty to type here goes.

I have had a mistrust of paper assets for a long time. And I have expressed that here, that is really because I decided some time ago if I wanted to be a *trader* as opposed to an aurator I would have to work nights and sleep during the day, and what was the point of living in New Zealand and not seeing this beautiful country. [[Hey Senator you should come over mate, I hear cows farting on the hillside outside my window, you'd be right at home...]] and because the NZ market has been insipid i have only precious metal, 9999, ex GST he he and cash, yes i even have mattress money .Now other, smarter people here can weave you some nice option strategies, you want to trade every day like  and RJ and dozens of others they will help you, or you just want to sleep at night and tend the tomatoes, look at the birds, hey what do i know??


(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:52 - ID#386245)
G'day folks. Good News!!! There is still time to get your tickets for the luxury Dow 10 000 cruise ship!! I hear they are going cheaply tonight and by tomorrow night will be free!!

What a day. Isn't it nice when your gold shares can drop 30k in a day and you can come out AHEAD on the day!!! I will be thanking the put God tonight ( and I'm not even religious ) . Have done heaps of wheeler-dealin' today and it was GREAT fun. Just LOVE this volatility!!!

A lesson to all on trading rules ( especially ME ) . From previous posts you may know that I use strict stop losses. These have saved my ass ( ets ) on countless occasions over the years. So you have a s.l. 10% below the buy price. The stock OPENS 25% down and the only buyer wants 3 shares. Shirt-a-brick!! Sooooo, folks, I am holdin' gold shares well below my stops!! When they recover, what I WON'T do is sell em at break-even price to "get my money back." Jeeeeez did I get some bargains today!! They may be bigger bargains tomorrow--but some are selling for less than the cash in the bank. Anyone out there wants to sell me 10 bucks for 8, I'll be in it!!!

You Northerners are in for an INTERESTING day. Won't make any predictions-----but, I emptied all of my bank accounts today. ( "I'm sorry Mr. Doe -- haven't you heard about the $100 limit on all withdrawals??? Mr.[ Rubin/Costello-your treasurer's name here] says it's to keep those greedy speculators from harming our economy ","Don't worry, you can come back for another $100 next week" ) .

G'day Aurator. You guys have a holiday--you gotta pay double next day, mate!!!

Nick@Aussie -- have you got an up-to-date All Ords graph to post?? Have we broken through the support line from '94?? I think we're just about sittin' on it.

Y'all have a good time tomorrow ( today ) , hear??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:52 - ID#2082)
The Aurator - this lad is no switch hitter but I do love stereo...and I'm leaving not coming...huh???? ok....I dunno............

My panic has not hit the button and It will likely NOT. I am in some long term stuff. I do not care regarding where this market ends up. I trade mostly for the here and the NOW ( and months from now ) . I have been LUUUUUUUVing the currencies of late and I is a option-future-trader. I seldom stick my head out too far or lift my skirt too high. Unless I smell some fresh meat........mmmmmmmmgooooooood............and the meat has just been your mate KiWi has been saying so eloquently the US dollar is starting to stink up the place ( although I might add it hasn't been smelling like the rose down under ( the catspace ) either.....h M!

bitters 2-nite?? the Mark get (  ) en ( ? ) go ...

The BIG Beaver
(Tue Oct 28 1997 03:55 - ID#373337)
@Beaver's Den
Phil: Here's a likely scenario - stocks crash abit more. Fed comes to rescue infusing money into banking system. Lowers short term rate 1/2 percentage point. Stocks rise briefly, but to Rubin's nightmare, markets continue to sink. Dollar plunges, interst rates rise ( beyond fed's control ) as bonds collapse. All asset values shrivel, and the soaring cost of imports sends consumer inflation into orbit. The dreaded INFLATIONARY depression desroys the accumulated wealth of Ma an Pa Kettle. Gold SOARS. Buy gold, Phil. For more leverage, start averaging into Blue Chip gold stocks now!!!!!

Newmont Gold
Placer Dome
Barrick Gold, etc...

Grab some silver stocks while your at it:
Pan American, Silver Standard, etc...

Join me in the winners circle Phil!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:09 - ID#2082)
i is a small fry
Thanks for the words Aurator...oh smeller of cow and frog farts. I am just a small fish in this large ocean of Big-Time-Traders. I blush when put in the company of Irvine-Boy. The likes of D.A. or the ferocious Panda bear and the Old'Fart'Man ( a loving prod ) , to name just a few, are the chaps that I look forward to reading. And even your close cousin ;- ) Nick ( Aussie ) shows himself to be full of savvy. I can go on but I will start to bore my friend LGB who is the greatest legend in his mind...DOH! We all learn from each LGB... oh Humbled One. btw, we will be getting that 2to3% sell-off sometime this week right?? I still love you man...oh bag-o-bones.............. pay homage

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:10 - ID#431216)
All.I hear there's this guy,name of Greenspawn,
who has a few US bucks to sell ya like maybe
60 Trillion of em.Try to keep them wound up
and see what happens.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:13 - ID#226337)
Interested to buy gold.
B B eaver:

Well guys, maybe I will take your advice. I'm a bit conservative, so gold bullion coins look pretty cheap and a good investment at these levels. I was thinking Maple Leafs and Eagles as a hedge?

Thanks again.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:15 - ID#225283)

My family held ownership interest in several mines in the Black Hills of South Dakota....I shall skip the details...The town was Lead S.D. and I'm certain you all know what became of all the small claims when the C. Kane family came to town.

I would not consider myself a gold bug.....although there is a time and place for everything....I feel the time for gold is soon...Remember the stock market sensed recovery in 1932 only after the Dow traded down by almost 90 percent.

I currently maintain homes in Luxembourg, London, Florida, Washington State, and Honolulu.I do not disclose my finanacial positions.I do feel that things will get much worse before they get better.

I think London will play follow the leader and the market will continue to tumble for at least forty eight hours followed by a suckers rally...intervention...The dollar may fall dramatically in the coming slump...the japanese will repatriate money to shore up the crumbling economy at home.....the yen and the duetsche mark will work in concert to pound the dollar. Other than a bunch of small investor getting a crew cut everything will be just peachy keen.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:19 - ID#386245)
CARNAGE in Europe!!!

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:21 - ID#289163)
@Blowin chunks from both sides now.....
...fl: You fag... I've been savin thisun fer yew!

Riiiiiiiiiiiippppppppp!!!!!!! Ruuuummbbblllee!!!!! Roooooooar!!!!!!!!


May Day!!! May Day!!!!!! Call 911 !!!!

I can only take so much from the likes of you!

Cha no - I fffffffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllll like A NEW MAN!!!!!!!!

Think I go buy some mer gold taday!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:24 - ID#386276)
What do you think about coffee consumption laced with lots of scotch during these days of stress. Chart looking interesting.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:24 - ID#2082)
Ahem............(as he clears his throat)
Oh Ted - Has it been enough time yet? Are there any more tears left? Can I give you the bronx cheer yet? Should I go to suk canal water yet? Has Bobby B. showed up? You had better have some coldies ready...he's got a big thirst to slake...I think he's worn out from holding that big trophy up so high......DOH!!! $5 bucks baby$ ( whicked smile thing )
do you want Dec. gold try this when others fail one of me fves..... aur-a-tor?

gold up a buck and a half

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:25 - ID#255285)
tangled up in knots
Phil. you're taking my advice? Sh!t, last time someone asked for my advice and then took it........., i was in the NZ Sharemarket in 1987, NZ was the worst hit sharemarket in the world and i was right in the middle, and I was asked for advice, it was not my job then, nor now, but I was asked for advice.

I remember the hopeful look in their eyes, seeking salvation.a tip, something to hang on to, to be told something. to be told something instead of working it out for oneself. it is later than we think..

this is the worst news i have heard, the very worst news the albatross is gasping her last

my precious, so happy, my precious

am i a contrary indicator dreaming i am a aurator or an aurator dreaming i am a contrary indicator

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:28 - ID#226337)
Privateinvestor: I get over to Honolulu several times a year. Sure seems like the Japanese took it on the chin over there with real estate. I heard prices plummeted after the early 90's runnup. Were you affected?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:29 - ID#2082)
and I don't want none of that Canadian Crap either!!!!!
I want five dollars US...ugh....Can$ down 74 ticks...ugh....

away...far away...cause the Senator just blew the pipes.....pheeeeeoooow!!!


(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:29 - ID#372100)


(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:34 - ID#386245)
Steven J. Kaplan

Commercials long gold, speculators short.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:35 - ID#2082)
Who needs coffee??
Nick - just click here for a JOLT...whoa!
and we DO need the single malt...yes we do is getting late

gold creeping up...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:41 - ID#289163)
@Blowin chunks from both sides now.....

...fl: You fag... I've been savin thisun fer yew!

Riiiiiiiiiiiippppppppp!!!!!!! Ruuuummbbblllee!!!!! Roooooooar!!!!!!!!


May Day!!! May Day!!!!!! Call 911 !!!!

I can only take so much from the likes of you!

Cha no - I fffffffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllll like A NEW MAN!!!!!!!!

Think I go buy some mer gold taday!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:49 - ID#225283)

No .....Who do you think everyone with half a brain sold to ...The nipponese bought High then they were foreclosed upon by their own banks...I was able to pick up some cheap hotel/condo property and convert units to special use for a hugh ROI...but the writting was on the wall ..with the change in congress hawaii would no longer receive $10 ( federal democratic pork ) for every $1 in taxes they paid in to the feds in DC. I got out while the gettin was good. Remember Bulls make money , Bears make money, and Pigs get slaughtered....I have friends and assoc. in Honolulu that I speak to everyday....the economy sucks....The HK Chinese , and mainland us firms are buying assets but at pennies on the dollar...and things will never be what they once were...Nice place to visit but keep the G3 fueled and ready for take off...Hana on Maui will be a nice place to hide out if it ever gets real bad worldwide. You can block off the road and communicate via earthstation satcom.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:50 - ID#226337)
@Hello-is anybody out there?

Where did everyone go? Sure smells bad in here!

I guess the Senator cleared out this Kitco site!

Hello! Hello!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:54 - ID#386276)
Globex was locked down limit before it opened therefore no trading.
Heard that one needs $40k margin to trade spoos.
Wouldn't it be amazing to see the dow open down limit -350
Not tonight Josephine I've got a global headache, try me again tommorrow, pleeeease!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:55 - ID#226337)

privateinvestor: regarding your family investment in Black Hills - are you referring to Home Stake?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:57 - ID#318123)
Do I sense a tad of contention tonight??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 04:58 - ID#2082)
I was talking about the currencies...h M?

away...for good...night

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:05 - ID#225283)


(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:14 - ID#318123)
It looks like a night from Hell, markets takin a beating and the garbage is tip over and the cat pregnant,right!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:16 - ID#226337)
Good luck all in the markets!

Nice talkin to you privateinvestor! Good luck with your properties!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:26 - ID#318123)
I kind of hate this part when we all take it on the chin its the after effect that going to be sweet. You win some and lose some more, but its how you play the game, its all a game. Who going to crumble today the mutuals or the banks?? Maybe just maybe the whole shootin match!!

Bill Buckler
(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:26 - ID#257234)
Anyone out there doubt that the two closures in NY contributed to the meltdown in Asia now spreading across Europe? Last I saw, Germany was down about 9.6%!

The Aussie news shows were, predictably enough, almost exclusively focussed on the meltdown today. The commentators kept coming back to NY and the market closure. The reporting was all the same. The closures came about to prevent further falls. Nothing about sound "fundamentals" or "preserving an orderly market". This is going to haunt Rubin/Greenspan and co.

Next big one is Greenspan's testimony tomorrow night!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:27 - ID#198328)
@ Locked the Limit!
Spoos and Nasdaqs are locked limit down in Chicago!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:31 - ID#215244)
Losing Faith in Gold
The Dow goes up - gold goes down. The market crashes - gold ( stocks ) goes down. Will gold stocks EVER go up?

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:39 - ID#289163)
spoos and foos and organs

Spoos are foos as far as im concerned ya dang foo!
As fer dem daqs, daqs are fer foos too. makes mor since ta by somer gold i reckon, foo!

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:39 - ID#289163)
spoos and foos and organs
Spoos are foos as far as im concerned ya dang foo!
As fer dem daqs, daqs are fer foos too. makes mor since ta by somer gold i reckon, foo!

Senator Blewfartsky
(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:39 - ID#289163)
spoos and foos and organs
Spoos are foos as far as im concerned ya dang foo!
As fer dem daqs, daqs are fer foos too. makes mor since ta by somer gold i reckon, foo!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 05:55 - ID#57232)
Nick ( @Aussie ) ,RJ, Aurator, all: It is clear now to me that in the electronic age, "deflation" of the world's markets can be nearly instantaneous.
Wish I figured that out two days ago. Nick -- you were quite right about what was coming, and we benefited from the warnings. Now, what we need to do is ( if we are investors ) wait on the sidelines for the dust to settle - may take months -- until the powers that be inflate the currencies in an attempt to correct the problem. If we are shorter term traders, there are ( I'm sure ) profits to be made -- mostly on the short side in equities, I would guess.
D.A. - You said it right last night. The equities market is likely to rise several times on the way down to catch the unwary. The inflationary part will take much longer - perhaps 6 months or more, unless the currency of your country is attacked. Until the currency attack, or inflation develops, don't expect a precious metals equities rally. Gold bullion may start back up sooner, but it has been pushed down pretty hard . Those who have dry powder left will have bargains. Beware the collapse of some key international bank -- Japan? Hong Kong? It will be interesting if mainland China escapes relatively unscathed -- but not Hong Kong.
To the shelters everyone -- and away from the beach!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:03 - ID#57232)
RJ - Looks like Tsunami surfing time!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:06 - ID#318123)
How long before the dow hits minus 550 points today?? I say within 4 hrs. any takers??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:08 - ID#26793)
JTF: I tried to look at my account today ( Waterhouse ) and saw an Internet message I have never seen before "Connection Refused".

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:10 - ID#286410)
My Bet
Leaner- I'll take 3HRS.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:11 - ID#57232)
Everyone - Watch the US dollar -- how much did it drop last night? The flight to safety does not appear to be to the dollar. A real solid drop in the dollar would revive the gold/precious metals market -- but beware the equities margin crunch.
What will AG do? Dollar first, then the markets, I would expect.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:21 - ID#57232)
Donald: "Connection Refused" --- interesting. Was that before or after you tried to log on? That is not a regular oveloaded internet type of message. I think we had better hope that the Brokerage firms we are using don't have any major complex derivatives trades, etc. -- a la Barings bank fiasco. Any ideas about whether mainland China is going to remain relatively unscathed? I really do think they consider HK expendable - sort of like the skink and its tail, which comes off, and then grows back. Too bad the rest of us can't benefit from something like that.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:22 - ID#347447)
What a Panic
I think the air reeks sufficiently of panic and prices have lurched downward from the New Moon in a straightline enough fashion to proffer kudos ( aurator: should they be lesser or greater kudos? ) to STEVE PUETZ. From one Moonman to another, Steve- well done! Even if the world does not come to an end, I will credit you with this one. Way to go.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:43 - ID#57232)
Aurator - wish you were on this side of the world where I could make sure I didn't miss your posts! "The early gold bug gets the chop!" That explains it all in seven words. You are also right about the conspiracy stuff -- our markets are well past the conspiracy stage. The only value for conspiracies now will be pointing the finger on who to blame. That will be of no value to those of us who are just trying to hold on to our assets.
What we need to hope for is that our world-wide electronic system holds together during this time of crisis.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:43 - ID#78115)
@European bounce
European stocks have bounced back..... The DAK is trading at its high for the day, albiet still down 6.5% but a big improvement over -135. If the really continues there, the
US markets could open flat.... that would calm the financial markets around the world. The globalization of financial markets means that all types of changes both good and bad happen faster. This great storm could be passing

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:50 - ID#57232)
All: I can't wait to see what our AG says and does now -- I doubt he will wish to raise rates, and I'm sure the dollar machine is still turned on -- for the likely deflation that's coming. How much of a dollar drop will he ( or the ECU/EMU guys ) tolerate? Another attempt to push gold down coming up?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:51 - ID#57232)
Where is everyone?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:54 - ID#78115)
Greenspan can't possib;y tighten now, that is pushing the dollar down and
should be mildly positive for gold

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:54 - ID#31868)
I flip on the tube to see what's up. go to the kitchen to get a cup and what do I hear on the lemming box.

Whining is a great wat to get attention and how to deal with it. Did you ever feel it was going to be one of those days?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:55 - ID#262239)
gold stocks
I am new here. I have gold stocks. Should I stick with them?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:56 - ID#262239)
gold stocks?
Any comments for Gold stocks this point?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:57 - ID#262239)
how did gold stocks do in europe?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:57 - ID#31868)
The media is relentless. "Brokers are telling people not to sell, not to panic. ride out this storm."

Ah, yeah.

Holy paradigm Batman!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:58 - ID#262239)
any comments for gold stocks?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 06:59 - ID#262239)
anyone care to comment on gold stocks?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:01 - ID#262239)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:01 - ID#262239)
tolerant: care to comment?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:02 - ID#31868)
BossBear: Prepare to hear several different answers.

Dig a foxhole.
Buy bullion.
Buy coins.
Buy options.
Do not buy options.
Sell all paper of any kind.
Hold selective paper.
Hold selective paper in only gold stocks.

Not trying to be a clown here. Take your pick. Go with what your gut tells you and see if you wake up one morning to find out you are right or wrong. These are the times we live in...this week.

Jojo in Tokyo
(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:03 - ID#210109)
These markets! God, I love these markets ( I almost said I love the smell of napalm in the morning! ) . But so many of you are talking like it is over! the bull is dead. Ha! How can you be so sure? or is this wishful thinking standing in the way of careful thinking? It sure is easy to tell that many of you have never been in real combat! You never assume your enemy is dead just because he is fallen and covered with blood. And if you are going to bet short this bull is still a mortal enemy! Here is what I think; get ready to ride the coming oscillations - over the next 6 months; it will go something like this: +3% -5% +6% -4% etc., premiums will be high ( time to sell premium ) , and reversals will be constant. Assume lots of volatility, and trade thusly, and all will be well. Ahhhh...I am talking about the equities here; regarding gold we are still forming opinion and a strategy, not yet of one mind on the very difficult question of gold.

Be careful out there!
There is no better life than that of a Warrior!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:03 - ID#262239)
anyone home?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:05 - ID#333131)
@Looking at markets after two day black out.
Electricity just went back on. Red is the color of people's blood.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:06 - ID#262239)
well i know bullion climbed last night to as high as 314, it may go did gold stocks do in europe? joberg was down about 3.0, which is not too bad considering, is the downturn mainly in bluechip stocks?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:07 - ID#31868)
As usual the talkinghead/puppet lemmingville media mochine says nothing of any substance. They can never make up their mind's. Billions are lost and they casually refer to it as a wild ride.

Yada, yada, yada.

Holy microphone Batman!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:08 - ID#262239)
it really seems stupid the stunts the aussies and swiss pulled, if they only knew what was coming

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:09 - ID#31868)
Least ordered sandwich in 98. Roadkill Rubin sandwich.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:12 - ID#262239)
are there any stocks shining through all this?

George Cole
(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:13 - ID#42953)
Interesting that this smash came so soon after Elaine Gazarelli declared bear markets "extinct."

Looks like this generation of investors will learn the hard way that it isn't how much you make in the bull that counts, but how you do over a complete market cycle. I suspect that many will be giving back all their bull winnings and then some before this bear is over.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:15 - ID#262239)
: )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:17 - ID#262239)
George Cole: Is this a crash or a bear george? And where do gold stocks go from here. You mentioned once money would enter the bond market and it would decline following stocks?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:18 - ID#262239)
how high does bullion have to get to help gold stocks?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:18 - ID#31868)
Bossbear: Go to any of a number of info sites and look for a winners and losers hyperlink. I really don't know.

Finally a voice of reason on the lemming box. A Mr. Jim Grant - told it like it is and did not mince his words. Good for him.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:19 - ID#261118)
@George Cole'n all
I love your post on Ellaine "Smasherelli",talk about a basking Guru! Hope some harpoons find the mark, she's convieniently switched signals several times already this year.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:21 - ID#262239)
i prefer a bear market to a crash anyday

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:21 - ID#261118)
@ T1
tolerant! hey! I missed J. Grant, wher'ed ya see him and what was the upshot of hiscomments; I like him too!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:22 - ID#364147)
@ Good(???) morning
Yeah, and next week Garzarelli will say she predicted this crash too...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:23 - ID#31868)
I think the talkinghead puppets are their own worst enemy. The group of people that think they are overpaid idiots gets larger with every program. I figure that here in the US it should be 2697ad before it spills over to the majority side of the line though.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:23 - ID#262239)
Amazinbg how wild things are getting

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:23 - ID#36965)
Joke of the Mourn
Well, here we are again already to watch the carnage if it continues unabated. Ted, are you out of the sack. Here's a joke kind of in the spirit of the whole thing.

A woman went to the beach with her children. Her 4-yr-old
son ran up to her, grabbed her hand, and led her to the shore
where a dead sea gull lay in the sand. "Mommy, what
happened to him?" the little boy asked. "He died and went to
heaven," she replied.

The child thought for a moment and said, "And God threw him
back down?"

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:27 - ID#262239)
does greenspan comment today?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:28 - ID#33180)
Bosbear: Tomorrow. The date was changed.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:30 - ID#31868)
Badger: Morning. He was on last night, don't remember the network and this morning he was on All Be Chumps-he did not pull punches and both interviews on his part sounded exactly the same.

He said the market fundamentals are not there, have not been their and what did you people expect with this kind of market. He said it was emotion not anything real that inflated this bubble, and now it was going to be emotion that deflates it. He says we have a ways to go before we get back close to reality.


All in all he is the first person that did not digress in any way and scientifically pointed out the flaws. Then he went on in a polite way to say that people had no one but themselves to blame.

Pretty straight forward fella.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:31 - ID#262239)
george cole:...seems like you were on track for most things george, but talking about it and seeing it are very dif experiences

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:31 - ID#258427)
The FTSE is up ( slightly ) ... everybody else down 6-15%

Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:32 - ID#347447)
Juris Tuesday
TOLERANT 1: re your 7:02, do I at least get two choices? Jury Duty calls. If you think the FINANCIAL system is in trouble...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:36 - ID#400248)
I think it's going to be hard to find gold stocks that will do well unless they have alot of cash, solid reserves, and good management.
With the Swiss overhang whgo can predict anything? And if people have to liqudate anything and everytrhing to raise cash to cover depts or margin...???

Best thing sit tight until things settle down..IMHO

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:36 - ID#261118)
@ T1'n all
Grant USED to be a regular on L. Rukeyser's perinially" sunny faced" show till he began to rock the boat, then he was efectually black balled. Remember a few weeks ago when we contemplated this idea on kitco; remove disenting voices, smart asses ect...? Badger's glad their here. one'n all!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:36 - ID#18970)
FTSE currently down 301.29. Interesting we still havent heard the REAL reson for the decline. When we finally know then buy for the bear mkt rally. It will be sharp and fast.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:37 - ID#262239)
considering the high pe ratios in gold stocks, a buy?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:37 - ID#400248)
I think it's going to be hard to find gold stocks that will do well unless they have alot of cash, solid reserves, and good management.
With the Swiss overhang whgo can predict anything? And if people have to liqudate anything and everytrhing to raise cash to cover depts or margin...???

Best thing sit tight until things settle down..IMHO

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:38 - ID#57232)
Bossbear: I wish I could tell you for sure what will happen with gold stocks or bullion. Right now, the most likely bet is that gold stocks will continue to fall with the general market. The rumored sale of 1400 tonnes of Swiss gold apparently did our fledgling gold rally in. What is amusing is that the Swiss cannot sell this much gold bullion for years -- even if they did eventually.
The only thing that would revive gold bullion very soon would be a major drop in the currency where you live.
I guess my best summary to you would be that if you had to buy something now, buy hard assets, such as gold or silver coins. Otherwise you must wait out the deflationary period before buying precious metal stocks.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:42 - ID#400248)
gold stocks
The Aussies had had similar Bre-x type meltdown years ago and they revamped there whole mining disclosure requirements. They haven't participated in the recent boom in NA. IUf the same thing happens here mining stocks will go in the tank with everything else and it will be along time before they recover.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:42 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller: Had trouble with my browser. Me, I am spread around in physical, silver and gold stocks, cash and e-gold.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:42 - ID#262239)
I read somewhere that a swiss opinion poll showed the swiss to be against a gold sale

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:42 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller: Had trouble with my browser. Me, I am spread around in physical, silver and gold stocks, cash and e-gold.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:43 - ID#262239)
I read somewhere that a swiss opinion poll showed the swiss to be against a gold sale

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:45 - ID#262239)
are gold stocks at a bottom here, theye are approaching their lows many of them

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:47 - ID#31868)
Now puppets are telling people mutuals okay. With the bruising sales out there,.............there is good value today.

Good grief.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:47 - ID#262239)
joberg was down only 3 percent

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:48 - ID#400248)
GOld stocks
IMO another factor to consider is where a company has their mines or properties. They better be in a country with rule of law or whose to say ther properties won't get confiscated or taxes raised or whatever???? and they lose the properties. Would anybody invest in Russia ....???

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:49 - ID#262239)
spot gold has just crossed over 314

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:51 - ID#364147)
@ S+P
S+P futures no longer limit-down...only down 14....Go DRIPS! CherOkee: I can hear you ( all the way from Vegas ) - them are strong smoke-signals dude.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:51 - ID#262239)
spot gold is showing a steady gradual climb

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:51 - ID#31868)
I have yet to hear one talking head puppet talk about the very obvious, and megafactor. The US is dead meat due to the ownership of our debt by foreign countries.

They got hammered, they need real money, dump US paper, buy gold.

Countries are going to treat US paper like cancer.

Bob M
(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:53 - ID#26059)
Any bets on another 500+ point drop today in the Dow..If it does Im buying the Dow

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:53 - ID#400248)
Many gold stock prices are at their recent lows and they do look attractive. The problem is whose to say how low they'll go. INHO if you find somethingff you like and you're prepared to hold if for a while invest half now and you can invest the other half later if the price falls. Another concern is if you look at many of the graphs of Canadian juniors they went down right after Bre-x thing and have continued to slide at a 445 % angle. They are starting to bottom out but it weill be a few months of consolidaton and testing of lows before prices begin to rise IMO.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:54 - ID#262239)
: )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:55 - ID#31868)
BOB: You are a brave man.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:57 - ID#33180)
Superbull correctly bearish just in time
From today's Wall Street Journal: I give Ralph credit for being correct both up and down this year, a remarkable record.

But another bull, technical analyst Ralph Acampora of Prudential Securities,
has pulled in his horns. Known for forecasting a Dow Jones Industrial Average
of 10000 by June of next year, Mr. Acampora says he turned temporarily
negative on the market a few weeks ago. With the Dow average at 8100, he
says, he warned his sales force of a nasty correction to come.

Monday's drop was far worse than he had projected, however. When the Dow
industrials fell through what he considered a ''support level'' of 7600, he says,
''I told everyone that it would go to a trading range of 6900 to 7300.''

Does he still project Dow 10000 next year? Back in the 1960s, he notes, the
Dow industrials notched up eight sharp declines between 1962 and 1966. The
worst was a 12% drop in six weeks in 1965. "When that happened, the
market turned around and hit a new high," he says.

Now, "you could have a spirited yearend rally," especially if the Federal
Reserve decides against raising interest rates next month. He still is calling
for Dow 10000 in June, although he says he will re-examine that "once I see
the extent of the damage" from the current decline.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:58 - ID#262239)
would be interesting to see a technical chart on the dow

(Tue Oct 28 1997 07:59 - ID#333131)
@Donald, did you see the Bema news last night?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:00 - ID#262239)
i've heard bear market, crash, what about correction?

Bob M
(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:04 - ID#26059)
The only thing that will kill stocks and ignite gold is WAR....this is just a nasty correction..if gold stocks begin to move will the Dow

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:05 - ID#400248)
Thx fo the Bema post. Interesting to read the news release closely. It would be worth putting a pencil to the numbers to see what placer is payiny for there share of the property per oz of gold and lb of copper.
Interesting that others were interested and Bema was critized for not striking a better deal.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:07 - ID#364147)
@ straight from the horse's mouth
October 28, 1997

Hong Kong Plunges 13.7%,
Hit By Wall Street's Decline


HONG KONG -- The equities market plunged 13.7% Tuesday to end at
the lowest level in almost two years.

The Hang Seng Index was dragged down from its open by a steep fall on
Wall Street Monday and rising worries about higher local interest rates
and the Hong Kong dollar peg's viability, market participants said.


Roundup of Asian Markets

See related articles on the global markets plunge

World Stocks Monday: Hong Kong Plunge Triggers Global Rout

The blue-chip Hang Seng Index tumbled 1,438.31, or 13.7%, to
9059.89, the largest single-day point drop in Hong Kong market history,
and the third-largest decline ever in percentage terms. The index last
closed below 10000 points on Dec. 28, 1995.

The key index nosedived right after the opening and fell through a key
support level of 9,000 points briefly before the midday day close. It
regained some lost ground in the afternoon session. The index traded the
session in a range of 8775.88 and 9649.06.

"There has been a chain reaction that has led to a vicious circle. The selling
pressure was coming from the uncertainty over the currency peg ( to the
U.S. dollar ) and its implications for the economy in the coming months, the
outlook for higher interest rates and, of course, the Wall Street factor,"
said Andrew Fernow, research director at Vickers Ballas Hong Kong Ltd.

Interest rate-sensitive property and banking stocks were hard hit, leading
the Hang Seng Index lower.

The broader All Ordinaries Index, meanwhile, finished down 615.12
to4706.88. Trading volume was valued at 25.24 billion Hong Kong
dollars, compared with HK$22.50 billion in the previous session.

Other markets that have closed so far have also fallen sharply in reaction
to Hong Kong's slump.

In Tokyo, the benchmark Nikkei Stock Average lost 725.67, or 4.26%,
to close the day at 16312.69 as traders reacted to the worst-ever
single-day point drop on Wall Street. Nikkei futures traded in Singapore
dropped as low as 15900. Futures trading in Osaka was suspended at
one point midway through the morning session because of the swiftness of
the selloff.

Among other markets, the key indexes in Manila dropped 6.3%, Taiwan
dropped 5.9%, Australia dropped 7.2% and South Korea fell 6.6%.

U.K. share prices plunged at the opening Tuesday, with the Financial
Times Stock Exchange 100 index dropping as much as 428.4 points, or
8.9% in the first few minutes of trading. The index was down 393.4, or
8.1%, to 4447.3. Frankfurt's DAX was down 390.90, or 10%, to

However, Hong Kong's Chief Executive Tung Chee Hwa appeared
unconcerned about a precipitous drop in the morning, characterizing the
fall as temporary after meeting with his cabinet for more than three hours.
He blamed the drop on a reaction to drops in other overseas markets.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average recorded its worst-ever single-session
points drop and its 12th-worst fall in percentage terms Monday.

Mr. Tung said that his cabinet, the Executive Council, didn't discuss the
Hong Kong dollar peg at its weekly Tuesday meeting.

"The peg, or linked exchange rate, is staying," said Mr. Tung, emerging
from a regularly scheduled meeting of his Exco cabinet. "There was no
discussion on that subject, because that's not a subject for discussion."

Mr. Tung said "there is very strong determination" to hold the peg in place.
Hong Kong's currency peg has been in place since 1983 and places the
official value of the U.S. dollar at HK$7.8000.

Financial Secretary Donald Tsang Yam-kuen said Hong Kong won't
impose any trading curbs to halt the steep drop in stock prices.

At midday in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong dollar was stronger as the
quasi-central bank intervened to shore up confidence amid the drop in
domestic equities.

The U.S. dollar was quoted at HK$7.7325, the top end of a range
stretching down to HK$7.7310. The U.S. unit was quoted at HK$7.7395
at midday Monday. However the rate was as low as HK$7.7300 in late
trading Monday.

Traders said that Hong Kong Monetary Authority has sought to ensure
that liquidity is sufficient to keep overnight Hong Kong Interbank Rates
around 7%. The HKMA had no comment on its activities.

The Chinese government also reiterated that China remains confident
Hong Kong can weather the current market turmoil. Noting that Hong
Kong's economic fundamentals were "sound" and its foreign reserves were
"abundant," Foreign Ministry spokesman Tang Guoqiang said the
government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region was entirely
capable of maintaining currency and stock market stability.

Return to top of page
Copyright  1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:07 - ID#262239)
sounds like a buy to me

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:08 - ID#364147)
@ go DRIPS
S+P futures now only down 13.....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:11 - ID#400248)
Wow!!! See what PLacer is paying for their share of the property....
It looks like BEma gave it away. Placer gets 50% 0f 19.5m oz and 7.6 billiopn lbs of copper for 60million. Even if you throw the copper in for nothing the their share of the gold is only 6.00 per oz...... Thats 2% of the present spot price of gold....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:15 - ID#251213)
In my former life and maybe future, I used to be a sailor ( VLCC's ) .When the ship went to Panama there was a whorehouse called the "Ancon Inn."

The Ancon Inn was like most operations of this sort except for one thing;
at midnight the doors were locked shut. Everyone inside, stayed inside and everyone outside stayed outside. Needless to say, there could be quite a scramble for the "clients" to get out the door and avoid ruin ( job loss ) .

The current markts seem to have the same feel except no one's laughing.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:16 - ID#286199)
@reality check
Normal market behavior ( up until about 5 years ago ) included 2 or 3 "corrections" of 10% or so and 1 correction of 20% PER YEAR. We are currently at about 15% down from the 8259 high in August. This market was probably about 25% overvalued using value standards mostly rejected by the new paradigm boys. Things will shake out for a few more days and then we'll be back to business as usual, albeit with more caution and that's good. The big buyers still have billions coming in every week from pensions and 401k plans. The individual investors will come back next week bottom fishing. I'll change my optimistic opinion if and when we break the 6500 line negating all of this years gains. We are still up 10% for the year on the DOW. It was fun reading all of the adrenalin charged posts yesterday. Gold is still at a 12 year low and stocks are still winners. The Fed and treasury still have cards to play. Y'all take a deep breath and try not to let time compression warp your judgment. Where will we be in two weeks, 3 months etc.????
Fire when ready Gridley.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:19 - ID#400248)
Let's all hope we have a g'day!!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:19 - ID#364147)
@ Speed
Bravo Speed! A voice of REASON in cyber-SPACE

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:22 - ID#261118)
@ Haystack'n Carl
Carl et al; what of H-stack comment: so what has been the norm of late for big co.'s to pay up for P&Ps?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:23 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
EB: Yes,my period of mourning is now awaaay bro! S+P locked limit-down again.....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:24 - ID#30116)
London traders calling for an opening decline of 100 - 250 on the Dow...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:26 - ID#30116)
I just noticed, platinum broke below $400/oz.

Good Morning Ted!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:28 - ID#30116)
Will EBN ever fix their commodities board???

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:33 - ID#364147)
@ Panda
Morning Panda!! Got a question for you or anyone else "out there"...Do you know if brokerage firm money market accounts are INSURED??? Like say @ Fidelity???...not that I'm nervous...mind you...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:33 - ID#30116)
@Devaluation does this, Oh boy!
A chicken in every pot, albeit more expensive...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:34 - ID#30116)
@WHY does that happen?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:36 - ID#401460)
Inlationary Nos. just released employment cot up over 3%. What does the bond do now?

$ moving into swiss franks dollar falling.

Bob M
(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:37 - ID#26059)
What leads me to believe that this is just a nasty correction in stocks is that the bond market is not breaking down, and the dollar is relatively need all 3 to break down to create a bear

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:37 - ID#335190)
Tuesday, October 28, 1997
Markets at the Brink
Mining shares take beating, outlook for base metals grim

Markets in panic as Asian fallout spreads
Market Watch: Trade halted after meltdown
Edgy investors abandon gold
C$ plummet raises odds of bank rate hike
Brokers stay calm as market tanks
Ottawa, Washington quick to soothe fears
Hong Kong vows to stick with policy despite market exodus

Mining Reporter The Financial Post
Share prices of Canada's mining companies were pounded yesterday, with a bleak outlook for base metals and bullion prices giving investors an added reason to sell gold stocks.

The Toronto Stock Exchange's metals and minerals sub-index fell 9.14%, or 413.91 points, to 4117.02. Prices of most base metals continued their prolonged decline, putting more pressure on earnings at mining companies.

While the sinking price of gold has captured the most attention recently, prices of nickel and copper are at or near 12-month lows. Even zinc, which earlier this year had soared to near record prices, has fallen dramatically over the past six weeks. Nickel closed yesterday at a 12-month low of US$2.74 a pound, down from a high of US$3.69 on March 4.
During most of 1997, markets have been flooded with nickel from Russia. Also, scrap stainless steel is being used more heavily than usual by makers of stainless steel, thus reducing their need for nickel.
Nevertheless, executives at Inco Ltd. said yesterday that demand for nickel remains strong. "The good news is demand - the bad news is supply," said marketing vice-president Peter Goudie . Copper closed at US90 a pound, down from a 12-month high of US$1.23 on June 20 and not far from its low of US88 on Oct. 30 last year. Copper supply is increasing as new mines come into production, and the recent market meltdown in Asia may weaken demand, said Manford Mallory, a base metals analyst at Research Capital Corp. in Toronto. Zinc, meanwhile, finished at US56 a pound, down US1 from Friday. Zinc prices have collapsed following a spectacular runup early this year that peaked at US80 on July 28. Just five weeks ago, on Sept. 23, zinc was selling for US78 a pound. A spate of short-covering by a Chinese zinc producer created artificially high prices earlier this year, Mallory said.

The price of gold rebounded partially yesterday from the US$15.70 hammering it took on Friday, when Swiss authorities said the country's central bank might sell 1,400 tonnes of bullion.

Gold closed at US$311.30, up US$4. Victor Flores, a Texas-based gold analyst with Marleau Lemire Inc., said yesterday's rally was due mainly to shortsellers covering positions.

High Rise
(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:38 - ID#401460)
TED: NO, I don't think so, definitely not like CDs
this is a good deal for the FED insurance.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:39 - ID#30116)
Ted -- Not that I know of! I set my accounts up such that all cash is parked in U.S. T-Bills. I don't like the higher yielding muni-cash funds or tax-exempt funds. Those funds tend to buy G.O. ( General Obligation ) bonds of states and municipalities. Those boys default when the sledding gets rough... BTW, G.O. can be issued for anything, like N.J. did to buy stocks for their state employee retirement fund??? I wonder how that is doing today? :- ) )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:40 - ID#403267)
@EMU NOGO in UK, thiswhyFTSE up?
My apologies if posted before, I know I missed it yesterday in all the brouhaha:

12:43 PM ( ET ) 10/27
Brit. Official Puts off Euro Link
LONDON ( AP ) -- Britain's treasury chief on Monday ruled out converting to a single
European currency in 1999, but offered reassurances that the government recognized
"it is right in principle to join" if the economic benefits of doing so are proven.

"It must be clearly recognized ... that to share a common monetary policy with other
states does represent a major pooling of economic sovereignty," Chancellor of the
Exchequer Gordon Brown told Parliament.

"The determining factor ... is the national economic interest and whether the economic
case for doing so is clear and unambiguous," Brown said.

He said evaluating those elements would take "a period of years," too late to join the
first wave of conversions on Jan. 1, 1998.

"Barring some fundamental and unforseen circumstances, making a decision during this
Parliament to join is not realistic," Brown said -- which would put it off until at least

Brown also reiterated that Britain would not adopt the euro unless it was approved by
voters in a referendum.

"The government, Parliament and the people must all agree," he said.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:42 - ID#401460)
Bonds Uch. Employment cost up
Bob M : It is obvious now that interest rates would have gone up this week if the market hadn't crashed. Inflation nos., employment cost going up. AG may have to raise rates anyway wouldn't that be wild.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:44 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Yes SIR! This gold/silver stuff is REALLY strong! HAR! If it won't go up, it surely WILL go DOWN! Right Shirley?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:45 - ID#348169)
@Today's Possible Market Scenario
Good Morrrrrnnniinnng WORLD! ( and Robin Williams wherever you may be )
First of all, my apologies if anyone has already suggested this since yesterday's close as I hav'nt caught up with all the posts since I exited here at about 2:30 yesterday.
Now: -IF this meltdown follows the pattern of '87 ( as it has so eerily thus far ) then I would remind everyone that on that Tuesday in '87 we had the wildest volatility. In otherwords there MAY be an OPTIMUM time this morning or early afternoon at which to take profits on those lovely puts that I know many here are sitting on. ( As I recall ) on that famous Tuesday the market was in full-fledged panic and down about the same as the maximum downstroke on Monday and then a sharp afternoon reversal cut Tuesday's intra-day losses in half. Good Luck Today All!
In retrospect the absolute BEST time to short this market was when the Dow crossed over the 100 day moving average as so easily seen in panda's beauty chart that he posted at 11:04 yesterday. My first post in about two months ( yesterday morning ) was very apt for this crash and I believe it will most certainly apply today as well:
Date: Mon Oct 27 1997 10:10
"Mishaps are like knives, that either serve us or cut us,
as we grasp them by the blade or the handle." - James Russel Lowell

ron jett
(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:45 - ID#372154)
If anyone would like to view some charts on DJ, Lond Gold etc. please visit my page......updated each evening around 7:30-7:45

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:46 - ID#42896)
FTSE just blasted through 4400 now down 351

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:46 - ID#30116)
Highrise -- The rise in bonds has been masking the selling going on by foreign C.B.s. This could get interesting. Man in the street can't figure out what's going here. IT'S the CURRENCY, STUPID! Remember, nothing goes straight down or up! Volatility will be a constant companion here. The news continues to speak of a 'good economy'. The market doesn't care about that. It cares about the current illusion, only. As a result, this may be a correction, only to see something much worse down the road. They don't call this liars poker for nothing!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:47 - ID#403267)
Ted, Waterhouse has two MM funds, one uninsured and one insured by FDIC up to 100K. The FDIC account run 1/4% or so below the other, but I am in the FDIC one.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:48 - ID#255151)

Morning all. Ted--I believe that brokerages are insured up to a certain amount ( $500,000? ) per account by the SIPC. This is a private insurance arrangement, not government backed. Now, if the SIPC can't pay up......well, that's why we buy gold, eh?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:50 - ID#30116)
Auric -- That insurance only applies if your broker goes belly up, or someone rips off your account. Market losses.... Oh, well...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:52 - ID#30116)
Isn't it amazing how gold is being reigned in here? Truly an amazing thing. Then again, trees don't grow to the sky either.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:52 - ID#426220)
The inimitable Gene Inger, CNBC financial celebrity, has insights worth sharing with us. PLEASE NOTE His comments were BEFORE Yesterday's 554 point drop in the DOW:

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:54 - ID#364147)
@ Panda,Roebear and Auric
Thankx guys...Auric: nice timing on yer vacation!!...My Fidelity money market is a mutual fund MM and not a brokerage acct. MM---maybe I'll call em but don't know if I'll get through....

Bob A
(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:58 - ID#18388)
I like to go to the horse races, quite often they comment that a horse will surprise. Surprise will apply to gold and in the UP direction.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 08:59 - ID#262239)
: )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:01 - ID#255151)

Panda--Good point. I think it was posted here a few days ago, that most mutual fund holders believe their accounts are insured against market losses! I would call that an Extraordinary Popular Delusion.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:04 - ID#20746)
RCA (1925-1929) & MICROSOFT (1993-1997)
Deja Vu All Over Again?! From 1929 to 1932 RCA lost 97% of its market value. Recall RCA was the #1 High-Flying Tech stock of the 1920s.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:06 - ID#81287)
All this talk about Swiss selling. Hah. A Government panel _recommended_ the sale of some of the reserves. The recommendation was rejected. Should it come to life again, then it will be placed on a public referendum in 1999 and every Swiss citizen will have a chance to vote on it. No way, Jose. However, shoul it pass, then gold sales would commence in 2001 and end in 2010.

Do NOT fall for smoke and mirrors. Gold and mining shares are at fire sale prices. Smart money is buying with both hands and then some, albeit quietly.

Two points. ( 1 ) If you wanted to sell 1400 tonnes of gold, would you announce it to the market? You'd get $16 billion less for it. Duh. ( 2 ) There is a currency crisis spreading around the world, even CNBC talking heads know this. Nervous equity markets go into the toilet. And gold FALLS $16 in a single day? Makes no sense, does it? BOO, it's almost Holloween here in Amerika.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:06 - ID#401460)
29-37 vs 90-97
New paradigm, no more cycles. by the way remember the 60 year cycle well this is the 68 year anniversary of the 29 Crash well me missed by 8 years, or did we? Japan crashed in 90, could this be compared to 37? Which was very bad.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:11 - ID#401460)
Clinton & Guns
This could explain Clintons backing of Gun Control. He will have a problem if this continues, the economy has been his foundation. Sure does take the attention away from his bent dick though.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:13 - ID#173274)
@the scene
And there goes the platinum.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:19 - ID#255151)

Had to chuckle at "bent dick" comment. There was a saying during the 1972 presidential campaign: "Don't change Dicks in the middle of a screw, vote for Nixon in '72."

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:20 - ID#402309)
To all nostalgic Canadians: "Would'nt a Dow go good now?"

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:26 - ID#261118)
@ all
Now the concencus on the "trading halts" is VERY negative. Orders are piled up and standing by: there now seen as a curse and every one knows iti...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 09:30 - ID#261118)
@the start'n line
I've got my Tibetan Spaniel n' my Gold Cup'n the other! ( now where'd my Starbuck's tumbler go to..?*##@ )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:47 - ID#20135)
Having trouble getting on today.

Captain of the Titanic
(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:48 - ID#34264)
In plain view of the accelerating worldwide currency tsunami, the announcement that Switzerland is contemplating the sale of some of the country's GOLD RESERVES is equivalent to the monumentally stupid AND TRAGIC decision of the TITANIC owners in 1912 to "economize" by reducing the number of lifeboats that the ill-fated ship was supposed to carry for passengers protection. It seems Swiss politicians have as little concern for the long-term safety for its currency as it lacked empathy and sympathy for Jewish well-being and their gold during World War II. This is blatant and reckless disregard for eventual consequences, and who will suffer from such a foolhardy decision.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:49 - ID#20135)
Is it just me or does kitco have trouble every time something major happens in the market. ABX HM looking like they are getting stronger. Gold was looking good early thismorning before the DOW rallied.

Comments about this government sponsered DOW rally. Hope everyone else will soon join the discussion.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:50 - ID#401237)
Unable to sell or buy "the DIP"
Very Interesting, I have been unable to reach Kitco, and other sites while the market comes back. Unable to access my accounts @ Schwab. Talking heads are really talking the markets back, of course if you can't sell it will go up. I am glad that I sold last week may want to nibble @ this "DIP".

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:52 - ID#30116)
O.K. Now we've had our little pop in the Dow. Where do we go from here? Has anything really changed? I still can't get through to my broker....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:55 - ID#31868)
I have noticed a very poor quality of service in the last three trading days. It has been tough to get on here, get quotes. Is this happening to alot of you ass well.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:56 - ID#30116)
Looks like this was a suckers rally, $PREM just went negative, big time. My data feed has been very erratic this A.M. Don't know what to believe.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:56 - ID#31868)
CAN't Spell
great typo, sorry

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:59 - ID#30116)
If my data feed is giving good info ( ??? I've already had to edit really bogus DOW quotes out ) , we've had 6000 point swing this A.M. on the $PREM!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:59 - ID#2082)
is buying back the US that you Kiwiwiwiwiwi??????!??!? w/w

(Tue Oct 28 1997 10:59 - ID#246272)
@ sunshineland
Yess Sirs,the sun still shines.Could anyone tell when or where the shoe polishing takes place?and do they charge an entry fee?The drop on the market will continue untill the E/P reaches a reasonable level-what ever that is considered to be.Oh yes and buy flag,one of the few issues which will go up!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:00 - ID#7568)

This is quite exasperating and humbling. Just when you think its going to get easy it gets hard again. We covered our shorts as the S&P's went positive. I guess the dipsters will be in control for a little bit longer. The pattern of crashes over time has generally been a three day rally off the spike low and then another decline. The first reversal day is today, tommorrow should be an up day, with Thursday being the reversal back to the downside.

Now that a market collapse is not in the cards for the moment I wonder what will happen to the bond market.

It does suck that anytime something interesting is going on the internet grinds to a halt.
While I'm posting this the stocks are probably collapsing just to make a fool out of me again.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:04 - ID#433171)
The wall street massacre won't be over until everyone throws in the towel. Investors are now getting part of the message "sell all rallies".

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:04 - ID#30116)
My inclination is to walk away from the puppy, right now. This doesn't feel right. Communications problems, data is questionable, and wild emotions rule the day... Very bad combination. I'll feel better if i can get QUOTES ( ! ) from my broker!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:09 - ID#2082)
Hang in there Buddy!!
C'mon big Ted. Remember this is the US stock market we are talking about. Not some mamby-pamby overseas crap...let's hold em before we fold em...GO DOW!!!! GO DRIPS!!!! GO SPOOOOOOOS!!!

btw, has anyone seen CME lately...they have the dow up 2900 ticks and the S&P plus 1200 crazy is that .......we are now entering the twilight zone do do do do, do do do do........ climb in the space ship

George Cole
(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:10 - ID#42953)
Now that some influential Swiss have done their part to knock gold down, five will get you ten that the anti-Swiss campaign underway in the U.S. press will soon be "gone with the wind". The Swiss were blackmailed and bowed their heads.

BTW, I wonder if the recent attack on gold had anything to do with Mandela's visit to Libya which was made in direct opposition to U.S. wishes.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:10 - ID#257114)
Just received a call from my coin dealer. He's telling me coins are holding their own and prices on libs actually went up a little. Can someone confirm this. Are coin prices edging higher in all this mess?
I'm told supplies are getting tight at dealers.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:10 - ID#31868)
The media is pounding out the same talkinghead/puppethead message over and over again. Everything is fine, don't worry. Stay in for the long haul.

One item and it is a monster, that no puppet has touched upon. What about the huge amount of debt that Japan, and others hold? The DM is going up on the US$.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:11 - ID#30116)
D.A. -- You're right, THIS SUCKS! I will try and post the $PREM chart for this A.M. You don't know from one second to the next where this puppy is going! To boot, you can't even get those 'juicy' prices that I see on screen! The phones are either busy, or the computer won't take your order! Saving grace? I'm sitting on cash since last week. I guess even I get lucky sometimes????? :- )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:12 - ID#403267)
Watch out, there may be bigger DIPS in the road ahead. Like the way they knocked down AU/Ag again. Would buy some SSC IF I could get through, all lines busy, servers locked or too slow, like 20 min for a quote that never came??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:13 - ID#2082)
The moonsters....what a call!!
Mooney - what were you saying this morning about taking profits on your PUTS??!??!?? YOU GO PHD DUDE. Are you a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist...h M! scrub His feet...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:13 - ID#287207)
JTF Bernie: Thanks for your responses. I got out of all gold stcoks just about a year ago at about 385--except for Barrick. It is clear that they are being treated like any other stock at the moment which makes sense since gold is doing nothing in response to this meltdown--so far.

This will be a real education about the store of value theme and the idea that gold is a good hedge against a stockmarket crash as the next few days pass. At the moment I'd love to be all in cash.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:13 - ID#2082)
The moonsters....what a call!!
Mooney - what were you saying this morning about taking profits on your PUTS??!??!?? YOU GO PHD DUDE. Are you a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist...h M! scrub His feet...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:14 - ID#255151)

Finally got back on here. While Kitco has been unavailable, I have settled back and am actually reading a book! Got it in the mail last week. "Extraordinay Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds & Confusion de Confusiones. First paragraph, "The tales told in this volume cover events that happened about three hundred years ago, but the accounts sound like only yesterday, or maybe even today.The more things change, the more they seem to to stay the same. Nothing in our modern markets appear to make much difference, not the dazzling technology, not the institutional dominance, not the complexity of financial instruments, not the information overload, not the globalization, not the powerful insights of financial theory." Comment--Folks, this meltdown we are experiencing is nothing new. I wonder what Greenspan will have to say about all this.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:14 - ID#433171)
Yes, supplies are getting very tight on all coins and the low levels of today won't hold for very long. Good hunting.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:14 - ID#20135)
You got to love them. The london CNBC news is now cheering 5% loses because they lifted from the lows on the U.S. rally. Scary.

How about the status of the U.S.?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:15 - ID#246224)
Prediction on AG's comments
I believe that AG *will* raise interest rates. Though economic and financials are interwoven IMVIAHO ( in my very ignorant and humble opinion ) he will be focusing in beating inflation down ( the ecomonic sector ) NOT supporting markets ( the financial sector ) . He warned everyone an unprecedented *three* times. He has been ridiculed for his prudence. He knows that once inflation becomes a way of thinking again that very desperate measures ( a la 1980-1 ) would be needed to destroy it.

Prediction for tomorrow's talk: he will say that the FED and all CBs must provide leadership and always prioritize the long term needs of economies over the short term desires of investors for comfort and security. ( See Hong Kong's *complete* dedication to holding the currency peg and letting their markets go to hell ) He will again focus on inflation and will say that it has reappeared and that the FED must now take action to contain it. Interest rates will be raised and apologies given to those in the markets who will suffer as this will exacerbate the current market sell off.

Then we will see true, unfettered panic and blood. The previous few days has just been a warm up exercise. This is a crash with bear to follow. Whatever the DOW settles at GOLD will rise to meet it at 1/2 to 1/3 of its price. DOW 4000 = GOLD 2000. DOW 3000 = GOLD 1500. If the DOW drops to P/E of 10 then we are talking DOW at 3200. The problem of course is that the destruction of capital in the equities markets will lower the potential earnings of their operations as economies fail to support purchases. This downward spiral will bottom somewhere. I look for a threshold at which people lose all confidence in paper and seek shelter to ride out its 'correction'. We will know that threshold has been reached when gold begins its inexorable climb as the DOW and all equities markets plunge. I do not know what the threshold is but believe it is psychological not technical in nature. These two lines will create a serpintine oscillation in their respective advances and declines until they meet at a 2:1 or 3:1 DOW to Gold ratio as George Cole or Donald ( ? ) has said.

Regrading gold/silver stox. Paper is a promise. Even though these stox look "attractive" in that they are at multi year lows I suspect that you will do better to wait until they have been destroyed along with much of the other stox. Until gold is impossible to stop in its rise these stox will be viewed as producers of a volatile product. Once gold rises and that rise is a confident bull rise ( somewhat retarded from the general stox failure ) then these stoxs will be golden again ( just like 1929 - 1935 era ) .

Caveat emptor.
Just a few thoughts and feelings. Now back to our regular programming...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:15 - ID#198328)
I think I have figured out why the Swiss made their bizarre announcement that they will sell gold some time in the future. I don't think it has anything to do with the price of gold, per se. It has to do with the Swiss Franc. If the Swiss did not make the announcement then everyone would have piled into the Franc because of its gold backing. Currencies have a much more positive "feel" to them right now than beaten-up gold. The Swiss are having enormous trade problems and they have a negative trade balance that they can't seem to get rid of. By making this announcement they were able to prevent their currency from becoming "overvalued" which would destroy their ability to compete on world markets. Also, by shutting down gold and their own currency the Swiss are doing their best to ensure that there are no safe havens except for U.S. debt. The world requires this situation in order to function properly economically.

Any Comments?

- Organ

George Cole
(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:17 - ID#42953)
Huge volume in the XAU today. Now down a modest 1%. Does look like we are searching for a bottom around these levels.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:18 - ID#403267)
Panda, OVER HERE, This is the only Lifeboat left till the light of day, it's name is CASH! Perhaps time to row it over to the friendly neighborhod coin dealer:- ) ) Bart is his name I believe?;0 ) )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:19 - ID#30116)
$TRIN chart

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:21 - ID#30116)
Roebear -- I have this check writting feature on my account. I've been contemplating using for the last couple of weeks...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 11:24 - ID#43356)
Could someone post the ticker symbol for placier, the mining company purchasing some of Bema Golds claims. Bossbear was talking earlier about it.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 12:03 - ID#37468)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 13:23 - ID#33164)
Testing file send
Nick, JTF, Mike, Reify.EB, Boyd

Please check your mail - have sent a new file thru-testing.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 13:24 - ID#194311)
Japanese banks confront bursting of Hong Kong's property bubble
TOKYO, Oct 28 ( AFP ) - Japanese banks suffered fierce attacks on
the stock exchange Tuesday as their exposure to a property bubble in
Hong Kong threatened to compound debt problems built up during the
1980s, analysts said.
Japanese banks, responsible for 42 percent of loans in the
former British colony, were sold down sharply on the bourse for
their heavy exposure to the Hong Kong economy.
After a rough ride the previous day, the biggest banks were
unquoted for most of Tuesday's session due to a lack buyers. They
lost an average seven percent while the key Nikkei index dropped 4.3
The world's biggest bank, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, suffered a
9.26 percent slide, wiping 454 billion yen ( 3.8 billion dollars ) off
its market capitalisation in a matter of hours.
Sellers of stock in Mitsubishi Trust and Banking, one of the
world's top 20 banks, found no buyers throughout the session.
According to the Basel-based Bank for International Settlements,
Japanese banks have extended 87 billion dollars in loans in Hong
Kong, whose reputation for financial stability has been cast in
doubt by sharp stock market falls.
Japanese banks have accounted for 90 percent of foreign bank
lending in Hong Kong, making the Chinese-ruled territory a bigger
potential risk than Thailand whose financial troubles have rocked
the region.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 13:31 - ID#194311)
Confuscius gathers his followers around him.
Economists stunned by Singapore aid to Indonesia

SINGAPORE, Oct 28 ( AFP ) - Regional economists reacted with
stunned disbelief Tuesday to news that Singapore had offered
Indonesia funds totalling 10 billion US dollars to help it overcome
its financial crisis.
Indonesian President Suharto was quoted by the state-owned
Antara news agency as saying Singapore had offered five billion
dollars in a standby loan to strengthen Indonesia's foreign exchange
reserves, and another five billion dollars to purchase rupiah when
The total is equivalent to one-eighth of Singapore's total
foreign reserves.
"It's incredible. I'm surprised by the sum of money," said an
economist with a foreign financial house in Singapore.
Another regional economist said the move could rattle financial
markets Wednesday on top of the ongoing turmoil triggered by the
severe drop in the Hong Kong and US stock markets.
"This is not very good because it suggests that they ( Indonesia )
cannot stomach the IMF conditions, that they are not ready for
financial discipline," the economist said.
After the meeting between Suharto and Goh, Indonesian State
Secretary Murdiono said "the aid from the Singaporean government is
to further strengthen our foreign exchange reserves and at the same
time to strenghten our rupiah."
Goh has said that an Indonesian turnaround could bring an end to
the regional currency crisis which began with the effective
devaluation of the Thai baht on July 2.
The Singaporean pledge was followed by Malaysia with Deputy
Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim committing one billion dollars in
standby loans to help Indonesia on Monday.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 13:32 - ID#194311)
Confuscius gathers his followers around him.
Economists stunned by Singapore aid to Indonesia

SINGAPORE, Oct 28 ( AFP ) - Regional economists reacted with
stunned disbelief Tuesday to news that Singapore had offered
Indonesia funds totalling 10 billion US dollars to help it overcome
its financial crisis.
Indonesian President Suharto was quoted by the state-owned
Antara news agency as saying Singapore had offered five billion
dollars in a standby loan to strengthen Indonesia's foreign exchange
reserves, and another five billion dollars to purchase rupiah when
The total is equivalent to one-eighth of Singapore's total
foreign reserves.
"It's incredible. I'm surprised by the sum of money," said an
economist with a foreign financial house in Singapore.
Another regional economist said the move could rattle financial
markets Wednesday on top of the ongoing turmoil triggered by the
severe drop in the Hong Kong and US stock markets.
"This is not very good because it suggests that they ( Indonesia )
cannot stomach the IMF conditions, that they are not ready for
financial discipline," the economist said.
After the meeting between Suharto and Goh, Indonesian State
Secretary Murdiono said "the aid from the Singaporean government is
to further strengthen our foreign exchange reserves and at the same
time to strenghten our rupiah."
Goh has said that an Indonesian turnaround could bring an end to
the regional currency crisis which began with the effective
devaluation of the Thai baht on July 2.
The Singaporean pledge was followed by Malaysia with Deputy
Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim committing one billion dollars in
standby loans to help Indonesia on Monday.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 13:45 - ID#33164)
Nick, Mike, JTF,EB Reify, Boyd:
Resize image to 2464x3506x2-2.6MB - I reduced it right down to 320 x 120 to save your ISP'S!


(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:06 - ID#225283)

Thats a shame....I was hoping to pick up a couple of the Suckerman Suharto buildings in Honolulu for liquidation prices....he has been spiriting money offshore into hawaii for several years...ala Marcos style...I had hoped that he would have to liquidate his foriegn holdings and repatriate the coinage...his asain benefactors should hold him accountable and demand liquidation of at least his vast Hawaiian Holdings which would further depress the hawaii real estate market so I would feel comfortable buying back some comercial properties with net cash flows.I guess I shall have to wait until the repudiation of the international monetary system.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:22 - ID#194311)
Jiang to Bill
hand over the gold and you can get you beloved paper back

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:22 - ID#225283)
japan Banks aka Worlds Largest

Does anyone out there know what happens when the largest backs in the world become insolvent overnight???????
Looks like several wise conservative investors wish to profit from the necessary liquidation of the japanese banking sector by selling short shares of Jap money center banks. Japan is facing an unorecedented collapse of wealth...and the leadership over there is having a very difficult time responding to the late to reinflate...The losses are very very real and they will eventually have to be faced.....if they bring money home to do it guess where it will come from?!?!?!?!?!?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:23 - ID#225283)
japan Banks aka Worlds Largest

Does anyone out there know what happens when the largest banks in the world become insolvent overnight???????
Looks like several wise conservative investors wish to profit from the necessary liquidation of the japanese banking sector by selling short shares of Jap money center banks. Japan is facing an unorecedented collapse of wealth...and the leadership over there is having a very difficult time responding to the late to reinflate...The losses are very very real and they will eventually have to be faced.....if they bring money home to do it guess where it will come from?!?!?!?!?!?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:25 - ID#318123)
IBM is buying back 3.1 billion dollars of their own stock and asking other companies to meet or beat their strategy. Who's going to buy tommorrow or Thursday?? I think many companies are putting on a facade
to bring back stability to their stock portfolios after Monday's wake up call. All is well in North America markets??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:26 - ID#194311)
Watch now how the metals LEAD the paper

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:27 - ID#225283)
Real money

$10 billion here $10 billion there....Hey people now we are talking real money....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 14:29 - ID#194311)
charity cases
leaner: sounds like a pledge drive...hand over the money

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:12 - ID#30116)
@Back again!
Well, we're over a billion shares traded on the NYSE!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:13 - ID#225283)

Dow is moving at 3 million shares a minute with Intel putting out the pr that it to plans to repurchase vast amounts in the morning...ala IBM......did some CEO have a bit of a Conference call and agree to prime the market... who is next...MR BILL are you ready to buy??????

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:20 - ID#30116)
Ladies and gents, checkout the Volatility chart.... yeeeeee haaaaaaa!! ( Slims Pickens riding the H-bomb down in "Doctor Strange Love" )

O.K. we can't post the chart just yet,..........!!!!!! I got the high at 55.48

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:21 - ID#225283)

You have got it by Geoge....More smoke and mirrors ...a week attempt to hold the market it is up to the spin doctors to make the sheep buy it....Looks like GE is buying back on the sly also well as MIke Eisner ( Disney ) but he got started late...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:35 - ID#225283)

Any news on the asian front..........What has the reaction been to the NYSE.......The folks in London seem to have been saved by the Market manipulation.....What about Germany and the B-Bank statement of a possible rate adjustment. Jiang Zemin is still sched to visit NYSE on H-DAY for trick or treat???

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:40 - ID#30116)
The market done gone crazy!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:42 - ID#30116)
Remember Slim Pickens riding the H-Bomb in, "Doctor Strange Love"?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:42 - ID#30116)
Remember Slim Pickens riding the H-Bomb in "Doctor Strange Love"?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:44 - ID#30116)
@Short comments only ?
I guess we have to learn to keep it 'short' :- ) for now.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:47 - ID#246224)
Will someone who has a live feed give us a running commentary here. I can't see a thing. Kitco was blasted out of the water and I'm just getting back on. Can't get charts. Gold looks like it was starting to ascend when NY MEX closed.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:51 - ID#30116)
Can't post graphs but the Dow is up 313 points.
XAU is up 3.36 at 89.0
Hui is up 1.93 at 124.53

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:53 - ID#225283)
Looks like time for Lucent

All this volume....and failure to handle traffic will mean even more up grades of hardware...Call on Lucent

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:54 - ID#30116)
EBN had gold up $4.20 at 316.05 spot
silver up 2 cents at $4.83

Brent crude up 50+ cents.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:55 - ID#30116)
1.162 BILLION shares on the NYSE!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:56 - ID#246224)
Sucker's Rally. Watch Japanese banks. Hong Kong is the millstone around their kneck.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:59 - ID#30116)
@Dr. Strange Love
Allen -- do you remember the movie, "Dr. Strange Love, or how I learned to Love the Bomb."? Slim Pickens was great! He rode the H-Bomb out of the bomb-bay in the B-52 because it got stuck! Famous last words? YEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAW! Then a bright flash.......

(Tue Oct 28 1997 15:59 - ID#246224)
Saw gold at 316.75. Silver at 4.83. Both up, same curve - exponential. Just at point of buy back news.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:01 - ID#30116)
Ted -- You have incoming X2. If you can't wait...
try this one.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:03 - ID#225283)
NYSE close

Well ........Big down day followed by biggest one day up record closing up. Nice orcastration of the bear...but well it hold...a one and a two...Hang Fire...anyone hear a fire alarm going off in asia

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:04 - ID#246224)
North Eastern Dealer "Past two days has been unbelievable. 70 to 80 gold orders just today. Our distributors are all out."

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:05 - ID#30116)
Yes folks, it's here! The VIX monster! This is pure gambling emotion that you're seeing here. 554 points down yesterday, 336 points up today, 545 intraday point swing today. Yah, this is the stuff of stable, sound markets! :- ) ) :- ) ) The lunatics are in charge of the asylum!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:07 - ID#30116)
Gone to eat dinner. Got to digest the meal before the business 'news' makes me puke..........

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:10 - ID#225283)

I hear you...check my earlier posts re this situation.....
CNBC reporting hearsay the sheep/new victums are standing in long cues to open accounts in hope of speculating/gaming away all of the hard earned money they have socked away...hard to understand...Dips buying the rally.??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:11 - ID#364147)
@ Thankx Panda!!!!!!
Thankx to Panda I can post!!!!t,Dow only up 337....who needs trading curbs when you can't reach your broker--hahahaha...looks like IBM+Intel reached their brokers....Re-gold: gold started really going up after the Dow did its big turn-a-round ( go! ) up is down!--now the rest of the world is just like Cape Breton!...drip drip drip

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:21 - ID#225283)
Alliance Capitol Comercials

Have you all seen these US tele spots with the Husband explaining to the wife that he forgot to invest and save for retirement and she will have to start doing yard work...or the son explaining that he to forgot to invest and now his parents need to go out and start bringing in some extra money while he rushes off to play golf because he cannot help them out....I think the real story may be that a number of the small fry will be cooked/smashed by market moves and end up with a non existent nest egg and an unfunded private or public pension. That is if the what alot of the kitco posters say comes true....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:23 - ID#335190)
?????? @ What to do ?????
Is this the moment in history to buy *lots* of gold. Or, do we wait a few days, or weeks. What say you. Do we go for it.? In hand, or Gold stocks.?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:23 - ID#225283)
Alliance Capitol Comercials

Have you all seen these US tele spots with the Husband explaining to the wife that he forgot to invest and save for retirement and she will have to start doing yard work...or the son explaining that he to forgot to invest and now his parents need to go out and start bringing in some extra money while he rushes off to play golf because he cannot help them out....I think the real story may be that a number of the small fry will be cooked/smashed by market moves and end up with a non existent nest egg and an unfunded private or public pension. That is if the what alot of the kitco posters say comes true....

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:24 - ID#194311)
Ugly, ugly, ugly....
why won't they fess up and exercise some prudence or humility. The gluttony begins again...a few throats cut but the Hogs aren't running from the trough yet. The writing is on the Wall, they all admitted it was over valued but now it's just buy, buy, buy again.
I really can't believe how stupid humans can be, now I think I finally understand the nazi holocaust, you can see it happening, you try to tell them and they just don't want to believe it.
Well believe it the largest JAPANESE BANK WAS NOT TRADED because THERE WERE NO it is worth NOTHING, dead, finished, over!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:28 - ID#194311)
Back from the slaughterhouse
The Bulls screaming as it bleeds and lunges forward again for another plunge, the hogs squeal and thrash about looking for a way out, there is no way out.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:32 - ID#194311)
the sign
Chinese lucky number $4

The Dipster
(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:33 - ID#364321)
Wonder if the mood and energy level will be a little differen't tonight at Kitcoland after the feeding FRENZY of last night.hahahaha- eat your hearts out boys!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:35 - ID#36850)

Richard Burke
(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:40 - ID#411318)
Finally got reconnected to Kitco. I have been following DBC Market Monitor and Gold-Eagle Intra-day charts. I see lots of exclamations in the preceeding posts, but we need to get down to tomorrow's strategy. I suspect Dow will be retesting yesterday's low in the next day or two. Anyone have any ideas as to whether gold stocks can decouple themselves from the non-gold stocks and move up? The XAU yesterday was a disaster all the while gold futures rising? Obviously sucked down by the general market downturn. And, what about silver - the fundamentals all seem good but the silver stocks sat there today while silver futures bounce back 10+ points. I would be grateful, and I am sure others would be, for a thoughtful analysis of where we have been and where we might be going?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:40 - ID#225283)
Allen kiwi

Have you heard of , or does anyone know this Allen Sinai talking head fool....I tried to sell Jap banks takers...see earlier posts... smart money will short Jap money center banks...they haven't even faced up to the old problems much less realized the potential bottom line crisis in the even of the asian currency about a rigged market just look at the obvious manipulation of the markets in would think the Robber Barons were alive an well...just reincarnated in Tokyo ....I can here it now Oh sooo sorry we did not know there was an asian currency ploblem must be that nasty Mr Soros not our bad loans... we do not have laws that force us to recognize bad loans like the silly Americans...we think we shall still receive payment eventually matter that the asset under the note is now worthless..POOF

Richard Burke
(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:43 - ID#411318)
@Stormy Gulf of Georgia
I can post again but can't bring up full version of others posts? Ideas?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:55 - ID#348397)
CRASH--BOUNCE (end act I)
The drunks have been at this party for so long, their stupor is so intense, they cannot believe it is over. They want the DJ to play one last song, he obliged.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 16:57 - ID#30116)
Richard Burke -- Try this ;

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:04 - ID#401460)
Good Day??
The Dipster ( @HAHAHAHAHA ) :
You are right may be an interesting night.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:09 - ID#30116)
@some more stats
Up Volume 1 BILLION shares.

Down Volume 163 MILLION shares.

Yes the dippsters were at it FULL FORCE, and this is the best they could do? Either this was a huge case of distribution ( I think ) , or there's going to be one hell of a rally in the cards.

The curious thing is this, how does one cure a deflationary spiral in South East Asia without creating inflation? Joe what's his name ( Battappatat whatever! ) tells us how the devalued currencies will give us cheap imports and thus no inflation. Joe! What about MY job? They won't be buying our imports, now will they Joe? What's this I hear about trade barriers in the region in question????

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:10 - ID#31868)
The amount of money that was wiped clean in the past two weeks alone is huge. Over inflated stock values, lemming purchases, money sitting pat in mutual funds.

Japan going to hell in a handbasket. No need to mention the others, you see the International charts. Not one mention of the amount of our debt in their hands by the talkinghead puppets.

My stocks worked their way back or went up a tad or are just under a tad. I am buying metal left and right. This paper debacle is yet to even begin. I don't see the last three days in the US as the primer for the horrendous clanking which will occur and I for one still adhere, and believe strongly that the big clank is almost upon us.

Clinton, Rubin and all the rest of the talkinghead puppets sound just like all of the quotes surrounding the 1929 clank. It is almost verbatim in some instances.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:11 - ID#194311)
pity on you carefully
Ailing Japan to drag down rest of Asia, predicts MIT professor
HONG KONG, Oct 14 ( AFP ) - The combination of financial
deregulation and economic stagnation will see capital desert Japan,
pushing the yen down to 140 to the dollar and undermining the rest
of Asia, an economics expert predicted Tuesday
"Japan is basically half-dead and the consequence is that the
yen will go down," said Rudiger Dornbush, economics professor at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
He was speaking during a lunch at the East Asian Economic Summit
organised by the World Economic Forum, currently being held here.
"We are going to see a rate of 140 yen to the dollar and this
will affect the rest of the region," he said. "Japan is surely bad
news as it is to find out that your mother-in-law has a twin

Japan's bankruptcy liabilities up 96.2 percent in September
TOKYO, Oct 15 ( AFP ) - Japan's corporate bankruptcy liabilities
in September surged 96.2 percent from a year earlier to 645.4
billion yen ( 5.3 billion dollars ) , a private research agency said
The number of insolvencies rose 15.5 percent to 1,287 cases,
following a rise of 19.2 percent in August, Teikoko Databank said in
a monthly survey.
Its survey covered corporate failures involving liabilities of
more than 10 million yen.
The largest single failure was that of Yaohan Japan Corp., the
core of the international retail group Yaohan, with debts of 161.4
billion yen, it said.
In the six months to September, corporate bankruptcy liabilities
jumped 105.9 percent from a year earlier to 5,930 billion yen, with
the number of cases increasing 11.7 precent to 7,906, it said.
"Although the government has reluctantly begun to admit the
seriousness of the problems facing the Japanese economy, it is less
likely that it will provide any effective economic stimulus
measures," the research agency said in a statement.
"Banks are now desperate to collect loans for their own survival
and can not afford to help failing corporations," it said.

Japanese banks buffeted by appraisal losses on securities holdings

TOKYO, Oct 18 ( AFP ) - Japan's major commercial banks are beset
by appraisal losses on their securities holdings, a blow to their
struggle to dispose of bad loans dating back to the overheated
investment boom of the late 1980s.
The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported Saturday that such losses
incurred by Japan's top 20 banks totalled an estimated 2.5 trillion
yen ( 20.8 billion dollars ) at the end of the April-September half of
their business year.
Appraisal losses on securities are equal to the combined book
value of shares minus their market prices.
The losses grew particularly towards the end of September as
such issues as banks, brokerage houses and contractors slumped, the
leading economic daily said.
Banks hold these issues under Japan's practice of

Japanese securities houses brace for 'sokaiya' impact on profits

TOKYO, Oct 23 ( AFP ) - Japan's "Big Four" securities houses said
Thursday they expected a scandal involving alleged illegal payoffs
to a corporate racketeer to have a negative impact on their
second-half performances.
Reporting interim results for the six months to September, the
broking houses warned of rough times ahead as the finance ministry
imposes tough sanctions for dealing with a "sokaiya" gangster and
clients stay away.
Nomura Securities Co. Ltd., which revealed its involvement with
sokaiya Ryuichi Koike in May, said trading volumes in the six months
to September were "substantially" reduced due to administrative
sanctions imposed as punishment by the finance ministry.
The broking house and three of its former excecutives have been
charged with illegal dealings with Koike.

Japanese firms seek non-dollar funds in Southeast Asia: report

TOKYO, Oct 28 ( AFP ) - Japanese companies based in Southeast Asia
are seeking non-dollar funds to avert foreign exchange losses
following the currency crises in the region, it was reported
In procuring funds, they are switching from the risk-free US
dollar to the yen as well as local currencies which, however, carry
high interest rates, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun said.
Southeast Asian subsidiaries of these companies used to borrow
dollars and changed them for local currencies but the currency
crises are threatening to cause massive exchange losses, the leading
economic daily said.
The semiconductor unit of Fujitsu Ltd. in Malaysia had almost
totally relied on US dollars for its borrowing until the crisis
surfaced in the summer months, the report said.

Prosecutors arrest executives at Japan's Daiwa Securities

TOKYO, Oct 28 ( AFP ) - Prosecutors Tuesday arrested four
executives of Daiwa Securities Co. Ltd., Japan's second largest
brokerage, for allegedly compensating a corporate racketeer for
investment losses, reports said.
Daiwa was the last of Japan's "Big Four" brokers to be accused
of paying off infamous "sokaiya" racketeer Ryuichi Koike, at the
centre of a scandal that has rocked the financial sector.
Prosecutors arrested the four executives for allegedly
compensating Koike for trading losses, following a criminal
complaint filed by the country's securities watchdog earlier in the
day, a company official said.
"Four officials were arrested after being accused by the
Securities and Exchange Surveillance Commission today," Daiwa said
in a statement.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:12 - ID#225283)
Hong Kong

Tickets are selling fast for Hong Kong's Hang Seng Bull fight...TORO TORO TORO will be heard in the street... jaws will drop at watering holes on Wall and Fleet St...

Japans Kamakazi traders will scream TORA TORA TORA as they impale themselfs on the market for the good of the rising sun.

Just enough time to grab a bite to eat and a power nap before the Hong Kong Bull fight begins..

Mike Stewart
(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:13 - ID#270253)
I tax loss sold my KLOFY yesterday at $4.625, and bought more of it at $4.125 around noon today. Nibbled at a beat up tech stock as well. I got it filled as well.

The McClellan summation index still has a fair amount of downside work to do, as compared to other post +3000 readings. This makes me think that we have to work back down gradually over the next month. This was likely the momentum low, with price lows to follow. From past experience with sharp declines/rebounds, I have found that the high volume NY/NASDAQ stocks bottom with the low momentum move in the McClellan Oscillator and the smaller stocks bottom with the low in the McClellan Summation index. This will likely occur in late November or early December.

I can't believe that the South Africans went back to their 1993 lows. They have, and represent potential triples at this point for patient investors. You can collect good dividends while you wait.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:14 - ID#401460)
Communications Shut Down
Anyone else have a problem using the Internet or Telephone today - Strange. I could not access Kitco, Yahoo Quotes, Schwab, etc. and the browser was working extremely slow. Unable to trade unless called a broker direct or actually drive in City to their office. I planned ahead for the down draft, by selling last week, but was not quite prepared to handle the upward blast. I am going to have to work on that because a BILLION shares within 6 hrs is a bunch of orders.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:14 - ID#30116)
And speaking of bonds.... A little bit of a rate rise there today? Hmmm, what to make of this? Real rates are arguably to high, but what the hell. Nothing else seems to matter in this market! Remember, the bottom line is this; This market is being driven by the Dollar. It is a currency market. If the Dollar runs in to trouble here, the operative phrase will be, "Sell the rallies, and buy the dips..." ( Short people don't get no respect..... )


(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:16 - ID#31868)
Any word on when the site switches over to normal format?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:18 - ID#390214)
Russia suspends trading(from Financial Times)
Moscow suspends share trading
Share trading was suspended on the Moscow stock exchange to prevent
further falls. Sergi Aleksashenko, the bank's first deputy chairman, called for
Russian banks not to follow foreign investors blindly, adding that Russia's
economic fundamentals were "sufficiently sound" and gave no reason to
predict signs of a financial crisis.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:22 - ID#194311)
All bets are off
100% metal

Over 'n out...hope I've helped.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:23 - ID#390214)
Saddam chairs meeting(suspension with UN arms inspectors)from FT London
Saddam chairs leadership meeting
President Saddam Hussein has chaired a meeting of Iraq's leadership to
discuss a recommendation by the National Assembly calling for a suspension
of ties with United Nations arms inspectors. The recommendation followed a
UN Security Council resolution adopted last week threatening more sa

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:34 - ID#225283)
Kiwi Xlent Post

You do not hear any of that from the talking head puppets do you...they are to busy parroting the party line to stop thirty minutes and use their grey matter... but then again they do not get paid to think...they get paid to take marching orders..and to churn Ma & PA acounts..

.So will AG resupply the punch bowl soon or take it away...He is probably prepping both versions of his notes as we read this... the question is...which version will he use???????????

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:36 - ID#390214)
Japan's economic growth cut to .05% for this year
That larger-than-expected decline led economists to scale back
growth forecasts for the year ending March 1998. Economists now
see the economy growing only 0.5 per cent this year, worse than the
1.6 per cent they previously forecast.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:39 - ID#401460)
Intel ByBack Just a Rumor
Intel has no plans to buy back it's stock, just a rumor - SURPRISE. Put this with the Swiss Gold sale - in the Can.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:42 - ID#390214)
A$ may hit 10 year low (gold prices hit A Exports!!!)
The couple of billions they got from disposing of 167 tons, is haunting Costello
The main fuel for the decline has been a corrosive mixture of
disappearing interest rate differentials following official rate cuts in
May and July, and concerns that the financial storm battering Asia
would damage Australia's exports.

Add to that a dive in the price of gold, Australia's second most
valuable export, to 12-year lows and you have a recipe for volatility,
analysts say.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:44 - ID#335190)
Stocks @ New York

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Prices on the New York Stock Exchange closed sharply higher in very heavy trading Tuesday.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 337.17 to 7498.32.
The NYSE Composite rose 19.45 to 482.66.
The average price per share rose $1.75.
Advancers beat decliners 1810 to 1309.
Volume was 1,195,836,620, a record. It compared to 685,496,330 on Monday, the previous record.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:48 - ID#401460)
When the markets were in the toilet everyone said he would not raise rates does that mean that now he will......?
Cost of labor up
Dollar down
Over inflated markets
Gold moving up
Bonds weak 30 yr down and little demand today for 2 yr.
Interest rates may have to go up to compete for the bond investors of the world.

Talking head just said Gold did not do that well YESTERDAY, what about TODAY? Nothing did good yesterday. Wow these people are brainwashed.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:57 - ID#390214)
Morgan Stanley says German stocks overvalued by 30%
Morgan Stanley says Germany among
riskiest markets

Copyright  1997
Copyright  1997 Reuters

For up-to-date information on stocks, visit Nando's Stock Server

STOCKHOLM ( October 28, 1997 12:40 p.m. EST ) -
Morgan Stanley said on Tuesday stock markets in Sweden, Germany, The
Netherlands and Spain were the most high-risk stock markets in Europe.

"The rising stock market in Sweden has been fund flow driven. That's why
Sweden can overrun on the downside when the stock markets in Europe
are going down," Ben Funnel, market strategist at Morgan Stanley, told

"Another reason is that the economy is very open. About 45 percent of the
earnings per share is related to the dollar," he added.

He said Morgan Stanley revised its views on European stock markets after
European markets closed on Monday.

"We found that the stocks market in The Netherlands was overvalued by
approximately 35 percent and the stock market in Germany by 30 percent,"
he added.

"The losses in Sweden are not over. We will not be buying the market
today. In the ongoing downturn we think stockmarkets in Sweden, together
with Germany, The Netherlands and Spain are the most exposed," he said.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 17:58 - ID#255190)

Guy leaving from work says to me 'Buy the dips!'. I asked
him if he was crazy. He was incredulous. Counldn't
conceive of losing money. Said 'Have faith' twice to me
upon our parting. The guy's an accountant. Didn't have
the slightest idea what the debt situation in asia was
about and glibbly retorted 'that's an isolated area'.
Big sh!t eating grin on his face. Totally naive. A pure
babe in the woods.

AG will tank the markets tomorrow with rate hike. 1/2 to
1% my estimate. People like the above will blame him for
it. Asia is melting as we speak. Hong Kong is the
kindling and it is on fire. Japan will set the whole
system on fire.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:02 - ID#20135)
Thanks Panda. I have not been able to acces kitco ALLLLLL Day. I just got on with a post that Bart put up, but that didn't allow posting -- your note did.

Miss all of you and whatever it is you were saying.

I for one thought it was a very positive day. Probably not enough sleep.
But I think that:

1. I was looking for a falling dollar as I mentioned last night ... and we got it.

2. I was looking for selling in the bond market and we got it. A fair amount of it coming for asia.

3. I was looking ( not that I mentioned it ) a way to suck all the funds out of the BULL and with the volume we saw today, I think we dugged pretty depth into the pockets of the BULLS just to get back to 7493.

4. I was looking for upward movement in bullion and we got it.

Of course, we got a ways to go, but this was a significant day.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:05 - ID#401460)
Rate Increase
Allen ( USA ) : I agree. He really has no choice but to raise now, with what happened today.
The Investor is now ready and able to handle a rate increase after what they have been through this week. They have been preconditioned now for a rate increase.

Richard Burke
(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:08 - ID#411318)
panda: thanks for the try, but I could no bring up the balance of your post over and above what was shown on the first screen. I click on "30 more words" or whatever it is and I get the home page instead of the balance of the post. Perhaps you could e-mail me at the underline between my names does not show up too well in the Kitco format. Or can you get your answer down to about 15 words so it will all be on the first screen. Thanks

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:08 - ID#344290)
Virtuosity of Rubin acc. by AG or vice versa
We have seen IMHO one of the great "high wire" acts by the fiscal guys, the market IMHO was rescued overnight - it won't stand. We will see act 2, and then the question is have they yet another powerful antidote to unleash; if so, then on to act 3, etc., until the excesses are dealt with at the root cause.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:09 - ID#390214)
WGC calls on Swiss to clear concerns on gold sales
The ``untimely'' report which was from an advisory group to the Swiss National Bank and the Finance Ministry said
Switzerland could sell 1,400 tonnes from its gold reserves of 2,590 tonnes if it totally decoupled the franc from its gold backing.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:14 - ID#20135)
When was the last time that anyone see John Murphy on CNBC. Whatever happened to their technical analysis? Wonder what John thinks about the technicals on the DOW. Could I once again impose on our fine chartist to post some of their excellant works on the DOW, S&P and gold and XAU. Even though I think the major sea change is more important to bullion and the XAU than the technicals at this time. The hedgers at some point are going to throw off the xau.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:15 - ID#401460)
Intel closed 5 pts higher than it did Friday.
People buying not even knowing the price.

Strad Master
(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:19 - ID#250297)
ELDORADO: Was today's spike down to 4.60 on Silver what you were looking for before it could start up again, or are you looking for it to come down and sit ther awhile? IMO the spike down and subsequent reversal in both Silver and Platinum that took place today look pretty bullish to me. Any comments? Off now...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:20 - ID#225283)
DA are you online

WHAT is your take on the HK opening

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:26 - ID#20135)
I don't expect asia to turn around on a dime because of the shenanians going on here ( U.S. ) . I think that the general ( Hong Kong ) investor has been bloodied quite badly. He has either committed all his money on the way down, sold some barely on the way down, or sat back and silently tearie eyed watch his wealth disappear. I suspect they will sell into any rallies. ( IMHO ) but of course, I just a gooose.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:29 - ID#31868)
When I could finally get through to yahoo stock quotes, for the first time I never once noticed a mention of gold. Anybody else notice this or anything similar out there.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:29 - ID#248180)

Currencies tied to currencies? No need for a gold standard in world banking ? The overvalued USD$ a con!!!!

World currency crisis!!! North & South Asia real estate crash any day!!!

Japanese banks overexposed?

Precious metals are simply commodities?

All the World's equity markets overvalued by a min of 35% on todays prices?

World economies so volitile that they depend on one man AG for leadership?

It all sounds, looks, and smells pretty sour, GO metals & mining stocks!!

The equity suits have conned us into believing that paper weighs more than gold.

God bless and keep your wits boys and girls.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:29 - ID#227123)
Sorry, Bart, but until I get a firm confirmation that
the entity known as Mooney isn't posting under multiple
handles and attempting to imitate the inimitable cat,
I'll have to keep posting as other former residents
of his creation and you'll have to continue removing
them. Once thing I have yet to receive from this
newly recycled Mooney is an admission that he lost the
bet. If you have any problems with this please write
me at The password is 'kitco'.

What is wrong with this site is something Richard
Burke makes apparent. There are a lot of exclamation
points on this site but very little in the way of
thoughtful analysis. Everyone's "the world is going
to hell" message is quite appropriate on the two days
out of each decade when it appears that that might be true,
and laughable at all other times. The Dow is not going
to crash, and you can't say it is going to crash at the
same time you are blaming the government because they
didn't allow it to crash. The Dow is not going to 8500
sometime in October ( GSC's prediction ) nor is it going
to undergo a 1000 point drop followed by stabilization
and further decline ( interestingly, also GSC's prediction ) .
It just ain't gonna happen. Government or big business
or whoever you want to conjur up has too much money and
too much power to make it happen, and ma and pa are
brainwashed and the CB's are conspiring to keep down gold
and on and on and on and the bottom line is the Dow is
at 7500 today and gold is at 315 and Donald's ratio will
still scream "gold is a better investment" while day after
day after day for the last three months with about
two notable exceptions just the opposite is true. Stop
blaming other people and start blaming yourselves for
not recognizing that this gold bull is not going to
end soon and is not going to be permitted to end soon.
Everyone that you convinced to get out of stocks on this
site ( except for gold stocks, which you didn't do a
very good job of convincing other people to get out of
until it was too late ) is going to wonder why they
listed to this short-sighted advice when the Dow is
back up in the 8000 range. Don't you agree, Ted,
you lovable down-on-your-luck loner?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:39 - ID#225283)

See my post on 10-27 re meltdown of telcome bandwidth...
DO DO DUE beeeep please try your call again after the melt down this is a recording...And you can mark my words it will be much worse in the event of a major melt down. so have fax..FedEx..HDL ready to over night or be within walking distance of your broker...because they WILL TAKE THE PHONES OFF THE HOOK!!!!I promise you that

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:40 - ID#225283)

See my post on 10-27 re meltdown of telcom bandwidth...
DO DO DUE beeeep please try your call again after the melt down this is a recording...And you can mark my words it will be much worse in the event of a major melt down. so have fax..FedEx..HDL ready to over night or be within walking distance of your broker...because they WILL TAKE THE PHONES OFF THE HOOK!!!!I promise you that

(Tue Oct 28 1997 18:55 - ID#31868)
Aside from anything else, the more and more my isp gets back to normal I continue to notice a lack of commentary on the metals. I also have a great deal of difficulty in finding commentary on the massive amounts of money that have been lost very recently.

Each time it is the same bloated reports of how good things are. The rebound and such. It seems to me that hundreds of millions of people do not have the money they did 8 short weeks ago. Savings accounts are going into the dips - delinquent indices promoting stocks.

It would seem to me, and I honestly say that my charting and scientific analysis is nowhere as good as some of you folks out there. I am thankful for your output and evidence in that regard. It would seem to me that with the oscillations running rampant through every layer of the financial spectrum that things in general are coming apart at the seams.

President Clinton and the Rubin puppet are out and out liars. Plain and simple. They obviously see what is going on, have continued to promote a false state of solid fundamentals and overall market strength, and I for one just don't see it.

Folks have their life savings on the line, debt up to their eyeballs and this is a position of strength. On, no, no, no, I think not.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:06 - ID#364147)
@ Hep
Hep: I do agree!! on bended knee too...

The Dipster
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:11 - ID#364321)
@ High Rise and Allen
You guys have very potent drugs or you are very STUPID.Greenspan will NOT raise rates tomorrow! Are you-all crazy?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:12 - ID#93177)
dipsters or manipulators????
What exactly happened today? Did the dipsters go on a buying frenzy or did the big boy manipulators sucker all the small fry to the frying pan?

There was something I found strange and very interesting this morning.

After the first selling wave was finished and then all of a sudden the

straight, almost 90 degree rise at about 10:00am took place, I was shocked in a way. What actually caused this about face reversal. Well the best index in the market. The DOW. and it's cousin the OEX.

130 companies caused the big move this morning. The mass investor

psychology was created with the DOW Index. Now who could move the market and how much effort would it take? Probably not much by the

Index manipulators or hedge funds. All day long most of the big price moves were in the 130 stocks and somewhat topwards the later afternoon the S&P. Any comments anyone?

Did anyone get a take on the volume 1.2billion versus 680million yesterday. Yesterday the market tanked 555 points and today it rallied

340 points. Isn't there still a deficit of 215 points but, almost twice the amount of shares traded. Seems that alot more lemmings took the fall and it was intentional.

And how about the bonds in the morning and then tanking in the afternoon? What if the Asians wanted to get out of the US Bonds and also stocks at the fastest way possible. How can they accomplish that and have enough buyers to absorb the volume? Well maybe the manipulators helped a little. We all know that the Big brokerage firms after 1987 put in safety valves to protect themselves and not the little investor. That's what those circuit breakers did yesterday and will do

to the opposite later on in this debacle. Very few little investors who hold

all the 100 billions in mutual funds exited yesterday. They like all their

successors are going to wind up holding the bag, like we all know. Some

more sophisticated investors bought the Asian US bonds yesterday and

not wanting to miss the Titanic sailing away, got out today and back into

stocks. How long will this process be repeated before the circuit breakers lock one after another and not let them off the sinking ship, just like the pork belly futures locking up or down the limit for a few days in a row?

I personally feel that the indexes and all these derivatives are the manipulator's tools to push everyone down the plank before they realize

what has hit them!!!! ( A HUGE MANIPULATOR'S ICEBERG )

Isn't that what has happened to the PM markets?

Finally, The big day is at hand. What normal investor would not buy on the dips, when the past two days have brainwashed them into complacency by believing that what we are witnesing is just a minor

correction in a normal Bull Market. The big boys are selling everything they can get their bloody hands on and that includes shorting all the way up during today's big "RALLY"

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:12 - ID#242129)
and clairvoyant
No doubt the Nikkei and All-Ords and Hang Seng will be
updated with the same fervor tonight as on previous nights.
Ah, but of course these markets are also artificially supported
by Clinton and Rubin and the other talking head puppets
and so it's all a scam that they are not all trading at
0.000 since ma and pa are brainwashed and there is no
such thing as a computer and the phone lines are all
conveniently "down" except to the people casting over
2 billion "buy" votes today and isn't it funny how the
word 'gold' cannot be found in the latest Websters
Dictionary because of course Clinton and Rubin
don't have anything else to do with the market
meltdown than scurry around strickening every
mention and every thought of gold.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:27 - ID#364147)
@ Early returns
Nikkei up 2.51%, New Zealand up 10.18% and Australia up 7.85% ( Where is everyone tonight?? )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:35 - ID#30116)
Ted -- Can you post the editorial from todays 'Review & Outlook' in the WSJ?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:39 - ID#30116)
Ted -- The column speaks about Rubin and Greenspan. To quote one section of it, refering to Greenspan, "He should say something similar today. Indeed, given his periodic wistful references to the gold standard, he might say that as one good measure of world liquidity he will not let the dollar price of gold fall below $300."

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:40 - ID#30116)
What a concept! Link the dollar to gold! :- ) )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:42 - ID#30116)
The site is too quiet! The link to this site is ;

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:43 - ID#215208)
Mega futures
Submitted By: nymex

Release Date: 10/27/97

Gold Futures Trading Hits Record Volume

New York, NY, October 27, 1997 -- A record 140,726 COMEX Division gold futures contracts traded Friday on the New York Mercantile Exchange, topping the previous record of 127,439 gold futures contracts traded on November 28, 1995.

The record also topped the previous record for metals futures trading, which was 127,890 silver futures contracts traded on December 30, 1976.

Exchange President R. Patrick Thompson said, "The Exchange is very pleased with the continued growth and vitality of our gold contract as it continues to be a source of price discovery and risk management for our members and customers."

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:49 - ID#164147)
Greetings from the library at James Madison U. in the scenic Shenandoah Valley in Va. Kinda slow, but it's the best I can come up with 350 miles from home ( got a modem driver problem on my laptop ) .

DIPSTER, ALLEN: AG may TALK about raising rates tomorrow, but cannot, since the next Fed Governors meeting is isn't until Nov. And I doubt that they will raise rates anyway, which will be good for gold. Remember the $6 rise the last time rates went unchanged.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:51 - ID#215208)
To post, use this URL to access Kitco

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:52 - ID#164147)
ALL: Question: Is there any significance to the fact that the gold futures and spot prices are about even at US$316? Futures prices are usually higher, just as future bond yields are higher for longer term maturities according to the market expectations theory. Is this like a bond yield curve inversion? If so, it could be interpreted to mean that gold prices are in imminent danger of collapse. Just a thought. Looking for other opinions, since it could be kinda important, if you know what I mean!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:52 - ID#426220)
LBMA EXPOS: PART 8 (October 27, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
"The Onion PARADOX" peels yet another layer away from the eventual truth of the LONDON BULLION MARKETING ASSOCIATION...:

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:53 - ID#215208)
To post use:
Let's see if this works.

Spud Master
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:53 - ID#273112)
Rubin & crew US Treasury set-up
Slick, you are correct: The Asians ( Japanese for sure ) are dumping US Treasury notes ... Rubin & Motley Crew have engineered this market slump ( controlled collapse ) in such a way as to have a "demand" available for the Japanese bonds and they come whistling back across the Pacific. Moronic US investors flee from stock market into used US bonds. What a perfect set-up.

Mike Stewart
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:54 - ID#270253)
The site is quiet because of:
a ) Fatigue from staying up too late and getting up too early to check

b ) General confusion

c ) Some of the posting screens are not yet up

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:57 - ID#286199)
PANDA: Yo! I found it. The tabs are funny because there were pictures.
Thanks for the URL for comments.

Review & Outlook
Market Interconnections

In the fumble to explain yesterday's
carnage in stock markets world-wide,
including the 7.2% dive of the Dow Jones Industrial
Average, it's starting to sound as if the markets
themselves belong in therapy. After a bout of what
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan last year
called "irrational exuberance," some analysts suggest
that stocks have hit a patch of "irrational hysteria."
Others say what goes up must come down. President
Clinton's spokesman, Mike McCurry, told a waiting
world to just "take a deep breath" and relax because
"the President is confident the fundamentals of the
American economy are strong." We happen to believe
that markets by and large react to real factors, and
the issue here is not U.S. "fundamentals."

As to the real problem, it pays to look at the
similarities of the crash of recent days with the crash
10 years ago. Both were manifestly international

In 1987, the collapse of markets
around the world suggested that
purely domestic explanations would
not fly. This time the crash began as
a regional crisis and series of
competitive devaluations in
Southeast Asia. The reaction in the
U.S. came when matters built into
big uncertainties about the value of
currencies well beyond the Thai baht
or Malaysian ringgit, especially in
Hong Kong--the lone holdout in
Southeast Asia still defending the
promises it made to investors about
the value of its currency. Speculators have been
betting that under China's rule, the Hong Kong
authorities will surrender their grip on the 14-year-old
U.S.-Hong Kong dollar peg and join their Asian
neighbors in devaluation.

Which highlights a second similarity. Recall that in
October 1987, as the world headed for "Black
Monday," the U.S. was in a spat with some members
of the Group of Seven, particularly Germany, over
what the relative values of their currencies should be.
There had been some measure of agreement on
exchange rates at the famous Plaza and Louvre
meetings. But there was no agreement on who should
adjust to defend these rates, the U.S. or Germany.
On a Sunday, Treasury Secretary James Baker
appeared on "Meet the Press," saying there would be
no cooperation. The next morning the stock market

From today's perspective, the 1987 crash seems a
blip, but in fact markets stayed riled through the end
of the year. But on the first day of trading in 1988,
the world's central banks staged a massive
intervention in support of the dollar. Exchange-rate
cooperation was back in business, and share prices
started to recover, ultimately reaching this year's

The lesson here is that in the highly
integrated world economy that is
making the modern world rich,
exchange-rate roulette has the
potential for disaster. When
businessmen invest and do deals
across many borders, they must
cope with an array of
currencies--and promises made by
the countries that back those
currencies. And when it's unclear
what those promises might be, or
whether they will be kept, it
becomes a lot more difficult and
expensive to do business.

Even more important, markets need some
reassurance that someone has an eye on the
all-important question of liquidity. In today's world,
of course, no one precisely controls or even measures
how much money an integrated world needs in the
form of dollars, yen, marks and ringgit. Yet spats
among central bankers, as in the competitive
devaluations of the 1930s, have a vast potential for
getting this crucial question wrong. This is the real
danger markets sensed in 1987, and no doubt the
same danger they sense today.

In this situation, markets could use some
reassurance, which has been anything but evident the
past few days. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin has
simply handed over leadership to the International
Monetary Fund and World Bank. What these
institutions prescribe is seldom clear, but the IMF is
widely perceived as a force for devaluations. Asked
whether Hong Kong should stick to its fixed rate, Mr.
Rubin replied yesterday, "I'm not going to comment
either on what's going to happen to the currency or
on particular actions they are taking."

It would have been far better for Mr. Rubin to express
his support of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority in
defending its rate. Hong Kong has ample financial
and intellectual resources to do this if it wishes,
though the support of the world community would
certainly help. Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan is due
to testify tomorrow on the state of the U.S. economy.
In 1987 he affirmed the Fed's "readiness to serve as
a source of liquidity to support the economic and
financial system." He should say something similar
today. Indeed, given his periodic wistful references to
the old gold standard, he might say that as one good
measure of world liquidity he will not let the dollar
price of gold fall below $300.

Were there some clear standard the world could look
to now, it would go far to ease the fears of
businessmen who instead stand at the mercies of
commercial crosscurrents they did not reckon on and
cannot further predict. Given a U.S. administration in
which the President figures the cure for stock-market
convulsions is a deep breath and Treasury Secretary
Rubin thinks the answer is the IMF, the world is
looking for a financial leader. As the most likely
candidate, Mr. Greenspan needs to provide at least
some small suggestion of hope that somebody in
Washington knows that an interconnected economy
and interconnected markets need a reliable system of

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:58 - ID#30116)
Did anyone read the Wall Street Journal, Review & Outlook "Market Interconnections" Op Ed piece? The currency 'theme' is finally sinking in.

Mike Stewart
(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:59 - ID#270253)
General Market Comment

Remember that the period from the lows in a midterm election year ( 1998, 1994, 1990 etc. ) through the election are BY FAR the most bullish for the general stock market. The boys in Washington want all the dirty stuff to be over by mid to late 1998. They don't want a strong market over the next year.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 19:59 - ID#426220)
The inimitable Gene Inger, CNBC financial celebrity, has insights worth sharing with us. PLEASE NOTE His comments were BEFORE Monday's 554 point drop in the DOW:

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:00 - ID#7568)

Maybe the site is quiet because no one can figure out what the heck to say. To say that there are strange things afoot would be a rather large understatement. It is hard to conceive of just how many strings were pulled and how many sheep went baa together to pull off what had to be the greatest rescue of all time. I guess the take home lesson is that anything at all will be done to prevent a bear market.

The absolute funniest or scariest report today was contained in IBM's announcement that they were going to repurchase 3.5B worth of their stock. They actually had the balls to stand up and say that their repurchase announcement had nothing to do with the recent decline in the market. What's scary about this kind of behavior is that the movers and shakers are upping the ante. If the stock market was allowed to sell off a cleansing process could occur which might save the system from a day of reckoning in the future. By not allowing anything to really happen it just raises the stakes. If the game is ever lost it will be lost so large as to cause a nightmare.

The bright side of this rescue effort is that liquidity is once again flowing. Rates are down, the Fed is on hold, and the metals may rise from the ashes. I could get over not making bigger chunk in the S&P's if the price of silver would double in the next few months.

I guess the meaning of the phrase 'don't fight the Fed' may be taking on a new meaning.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:01 - ID#30116)
Speed -- What's this stuff about 'reliable' money? :- ) )

Don't they know, Uncle Ben and Uncle Grant just got a face lift. :- ) )

Lan Man
(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:03 - ID#317183)
@Line Up Here
How many out there have friends and co-workers state that it looks like a GOOD time to buy some "blah blah blah stock"? One co-worker of mine told me that his wife last night asked him if it would be a good time to buy some Disney stock, since there was the correction and all. Now mind you, he knows how I feel about equities in general ( excluding natural resources ) and Wall Street in particular. He told his wife that he would check with me first before they buy. This poor guy and his family live from paycheck to paycheck, using the good old credit card in between just to get by. You know the type - the ones who hold onto all those bills until payday then run around trying to get all of them in before there are penalties...Heck when we go out to lunch I usually spot him a buck or two!

Yea, right I said to him, go ahead and buy that stock, after all, you'll all retire millionaires - at least thats what the mutual fund companies promise!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:05 - ID#30116)
D.A. -- i would love to post a chart of the $VIX, volatility indicator. It is just spectacular! The high was 55.48, if DBC was right.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:07 - ID#286199)
Panda: I thought that "Reliable Money" was a 23-1 longshot in the second race next Saturday. ; ) The other horses are "Good-as-Gold" and "Fickle Paper".

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:08 - ID#403267)
@that was irritating
Thanks for the posting URL, when try read comments the "more words" = home page anyone else?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:09 - ID#194311)
Greenspan pulls the trigger
...what else. Th hog is thrashing about on the ground blood gushing out of it's throat but not dead. He's a humane man so he does the humane thing and puts it out of it's misery, raises interest rates. But also because he's humane and can't watch so much suffering he turns the gun on himself and blows his brains out on that would cause quite a panic!...Anybody wanna take futures on this possibility?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:12 - ID#403267)
@Help,U know I cannot speak only one sentence!
Panda,Speed,all,Can only read post first lines,cannot get ore words, what is going on, same for you?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:14 - ID#403267)
All the post URL works, cut and paste to location ( as in show location under options netscape ) hit enter.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:14 - ID#30116)
Roebear -- Try this URL

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:16 - ID#164147)
Steven Kaplan is the one responsible for the "changing deck chairs on the Titanic" comment a few days ago referring to the flight to "quality" into bonds.
The rest can be found at
Gold Mining Outlook
by Steven Jon Kaplan
Updated @ 6:00 p.m. EDT, Tuesday, October 28, 1997.

COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities ended sharply lower on Tuesday, while precious metals
began the day lower but ended moderately higher. Gold gained $4.20, silver rose 1.5 cents,
platinum was up $3.80, and palladium rallied $5.95. Extremely bearish analysts' sentiment
substantially assisted gold in its recovery, as those who were considering selling ( short ) had
already done so, leaving a moderate amount of buying sufficient to push the yellow metal
higher. Many gold mining shares hit new annual lows before ending the day with a gain, thus
marking a bullish key reversal.

The recent volatility in the financial markets at home and abroad will make it much more difficult for the
Federal Reserve to raise interest rates. Therefore, even if inflation accelerates, as long as the stock
market is declining, there will be no brakes put on the economic engine. The implications are strongly
bullish for precious metals and their shares, since rising inflation and artificially low interest rates are the
ideal combination for spurring investment in gold.

Commercial accumulation of the yellow metal continues at a record pace, with COMEX gold
open interest rising 9,241 lots on Monday to 213,725, not far from the yearly high, and following
a day in which open interest surged by 25,829 lots, totaling a record +35,070 over the previous
two days. This of course indicates heavy commercial accumulation accompanied by equally
lopsided speculator short selling, which is strongly bullish. If, as bearish analysts have been
fond of saying recently, gold and silver are "just" commodities ( i.e., not true inflation hedges or
recognized proxies of monetary worth ) , then the traders' commitments should be the
predominant item of importance; thus, gold should be poised for an imminent rally. Remember
that the market was created for the benefit of the commercials.

A number of analysts very foolishly commented that precious metals rallied on Tuesday "in spite
of" the rise in the Dow. The historical correlation between gold and the stock market is only
slightly negative. There is a strong positive correlation between volatility in equities and rising
gold prices, so strong moves in the Dow in both directions over an extended period of time will
lead to a continued rise in the value of the yellow metal. Some of these same analysts even
attributed the recent recovery in gold prices to speculator short covering, which directly
contradicts the COMEX' official figures, and leads one to wonder what the qualifications are to
be a gold mining analyst these days.

On the New York Stock Exchange there were 11 new highs and 292 new lows, with 1810 stocks
advancing and 1309 stocks declining. The index put-call ratio was a moderately pessimistic 1.51,
while the equity put-call ratio was a moderately pessimistic 0.55. The fact that everyone believes
that the stock market drop is over, combined with what would be the lowest index put-call
ratios in history for a market bottom, makes it very likely that the stock market will decline
sharply again in the near future.

Tuesday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a moderately heavy 52,000 lots. Total COMEX
gold open interest on Monday rose 9,241 to 213,725 contracts, sharply intensifying a recent
trend of persistent commercial accumulation combined with speculator short selling. COMEX
gold warehouse stocks plunged 67,650 ounces to 702,302 ounces, while COMEX silver
warehouse stocks hit a new 12-year low, declining by 718,738 ounces to 132,508,454 ounces.
The Johannesburg gold index closed Tuesday morning at 861.0, down 33.9, with the U.S. dollar
quoted at a new record high of 4.8375 rand.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:16 - ID#286199)
Lanman: One of my bosses came in and asked if it was a good time to buy. I told her to wait a week. Like I should know?! I'm down not up.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:16 - ID#403267)
@panda, more words = error 404, try and fit it on
one line, please.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:17 - ID#286199)
@try this>

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:18 - ID#286199)
This is better.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:18 - ID#252132)
@ Between The High and The Low:
I understand that the spread between the intra-day high and the low on the Dow Jones Industrials was more than 500 points!!! Don't know the exact number. Was it greater that yesterday's "dip"???? : )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:18 - ID#30116)
kiwi -- D.A. made mention of a 'typical' down market pattern. No, Iwon't use the 'CRASH' word. This story isn't done yet. No, no, no. For the bull to go on, we need to take out the old highs. Hmmmm, thousand plus point rally anyone??? Remember, we lost a thousand points on the Dow in about three days. How many months of trading work was that?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:20 - ID#338126)
The metals are flying on the Tokyo futures ex

the equivelent amt in $ is $5.80/oz

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:22 - ID#164147)
Panda's last URL should work
ROEBEAR: If not try linking through the Kaplan URL I just posted. Using frames?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:22 - ID#30116)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:25 - ID#30116)
Byron -- I've been getting bogus data from DBC all day in regards to the Dow. I believe the range for today exceeds the drop yesterday, also, the volume was unreal at 1.2 billion shares. Too much energy expended though. One billion shares up volume and 163? million shares down volume.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:26 - ID#344328)
Considering the sheer magnitude of the Wall Street rally today, does it strike anyone else as strange that the breadth was so weak? Advances beating decliners by not so much as 3:2. Comments? What does this mean?

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:28 - ID#164147)
@ Another library
BYRON: I think the Dow intra-day spread was 500 points ( -170? to +330? ) which would be just lower than yesterday's 554 point loss.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:29 - ID#262242)
To All: The problems that caused the downdraft yesterday are still in place. The rescue effort today was masterful. Lets see if it holds for the rest of this week. I believe we are headed for a crash or ( most likely ) inflation IMVHO.

Tolerant1, I sure enjoy your posts. Drop me an E-Mail.
Mooney, good to see you back.
Hello Reify: Sure enjoy the pictures of your paintings.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:31 - ID#30116)
Byron -- Yesterdays drop occured on something like 680 million shares of down volume, I don't remember the exact numbers. Compare that to the up volume of today and where we stand on the Dow index. I wish I could post the $VIX chart!!!! It looks like a mountain. More specifically, a head and shoulders pattern. The peak was 55.48!! I wonder what the $VIX was in the '87 debacle. I think that there is too much complacency given this 'correction'. Remember, the fundamental cause was the currency crisis in Asia. Solution???? We have some of the finest computers and printing equipment in the world, as someone hear recently said. :- ) )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:38 - ID#194311)
Get this....
somebody just told me that it was the "best" paper that they printed money with so it is worth something after all.....I'm truly terrified at what money can do to people, I guess that's what the '30's were about a huge hangover from the money high.
God how will we ever make it into the new millenium, TV makes me vomit and cry...this is pure evil rearing it's ugly head.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:42 - ID#252132)
@ Cup of Java:
Panda: If you have access to "java" sites, the site now has access to "java" charts which allows for "intra-day" 1-5-10-15-30-60, etc time periods. One can look at todays intra-day's action and compare it to yesterday. I'm currently at a text only machine so I can't check. The URL is and after you get the indu quote you next have an option for a wide variety of charts. But you need java software.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:44 - ID#252132)
@ The Public Library:
Well, I still think that it is amassing that we had two back-to-back 500 point moves days looking at it on a intra-day basis only.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:50 - ID#252132)
@Support Your Public Library Week:
Yellow Jacket: It good to hear from another fellow local library user. ( ^.^ ) .... last night at the library, I was fortunate to observer a in-house halloween parade by the local young ones. ( ages 3-6 or there abouts ) .: )

Bob M
(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:53 - ID#26059)
The PR being done by the government officials and the media, and the mutual fund companies has been incredible..but watch the Middle East..a shock wave from there is about to come...then see if the market holds up...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:54 - ID#426220)
Gold Prices zooming upwards Wednesday morning in TOKYO! Gold at US$318 ( 1,225 Yen/gram ) - UP US$6.50 ( 25 Yen/gram ) . ORACLE's prediction being fulfilled: "JAPAN BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD SPOT - Only Solution Is To Dump U.S. Treasuries and Buy GOLD! Financial Tsunami Looming in Land of Rising Sun. Part - VI of ORACLE's series found here - other five parts hot-wired at the bottom of Part VI:

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:55 - ID#20135)
Finally found a chart url ... couldn't find it last night. Doesn't make up for the great chartist on kitco, but may help some until they can post their charts again. Try
Select the index you want to view 8 month or 2 year. Very interesting. If you ask me, the world markets are entering a new phase ... it is bearing down on them and they probably can ignore it for awhile longer.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 20:58 - ID#364147)
@ The Skeptical Investor
From Halifax Nova Scotia I present the Skeptical Investor:THE SKEPTICAL INVESTOR

Issue No. 5. October 1997

Posted 27.X.1997

Previous Issue .....

Well, it is looking increasingly certain that the local consequence of the financial and economic chaos
in the Asia Pacific region is going to be deflation. In Thailand, the nation which has been in crisis the
longest, although some prices are being raised money and credit are obviously drying up: that's
deflation. Land, real estate and commercial rents are particularly good indicators: the prices of all
are now falling at double-digit annual rates in Bangkok. The Bangkok Post columnist Bernard Trink
has also been describing how many of his business acquaintances have no money, how jobs are
disappearing, and he has noted the falling prices of many items. Second-hand luxury goods -
jewellery, imported cars - are being sold by individuals who cannot afford the credit payments, or
simply to raise needed cash. Early evidence from other countries is pointing in the same direction:
for example commercial real estate in Manilla has already fallen as much as 25% in price this year.
Expect more of the same throughout the region. A nasty deflationary recession - perhaps even a
depression - thus now appears to be almost a certainty in this part of the world.

The effects on Japan are also starting to become visible and unequivocal. As I write this, the Nikkei
225 Index is at 17,038, its lowest close since August 14th 1995 ( 16,917 ) . It has been ratcheting
down implacably and 17,000 is widely perceived as the crucial psychological level. It is almost
certain to be breached tonight. During the last trading session ( October 27th ) the key No. 182
Japanese Government Ten Year Cash Bond fell to a record low yield of just 1.650% ( closing up
just a little ) . Japan looks to be in big trouble economically: since I posted the last Issue of the
Skeptical Investor a number of official statements have confirmed my expressed belief that a
recession is likely. I will now go further: I think it inevitable. The bad news will only come out in
dribs and drabs of course. A severe recession or a depression in Japan has frightening implications
for the global economy. ( See S.I. No. 4 September 1997 ) .

In Europe and the USA the realisation that investments still have "risk" has finally come back. The
psychological turning point was the collapse of the Hong Kong stock markets. I explained in the
mid-June Issue how the US bull market was being driven to a large extent by a sanguine belief that
buy-and-hold investing had become risk-free. And I predicted that it would most likely collapse not
as a consequence of some sudden external shock but in response to a more non-specific
breakdown of investor sentiment. In this light, all the fine-sounding economic analyses which we are
now reading about how much of the US economy will or won't be directly affected by events in
Asia are largely irrelevant indicators of the ultimate effect on US stock markets. The psychological
effect on investors in these grossly overvalued markets of their realization that the booming Hang
Seng could collapse by 25% in a week is what will matter. That has gotten their attention. Like the
proverbial two by four between the eyes. Hence the sharp falls throughout Europe, North America
and Latin America during today's trading sessions.

One of the main arguments that has been used in support of the belief that we are in a New Era is
that globalization has resulted in tremendous economic growth as markets open up whilst at the
same time the increased competition is holding back inflation. Another is that governments and
central banks have now learned how to "get it right" and maintain steady inflation-free expansion
without triggering inflation. Such trends are argued to have eliminated the business cycle: the prices
of equities ( particularly those in the USA ) assume decades of steady growth and increased profits.
But, as I have said before, I consider this New Era thinking to be nonsense: nothing more than post
hoc rationalisation and wishful thinking.

Globalization has indeed been a major factor lying behind the unprecedented economic expansion of
the last several years, but it has to be remembered that governments and central banks ( whilst they
may attempt to act in concert ) are institutions of nation states with ultimately only domestic power
and authority. Globalization has increasingly eaten away at their power to manipulate the economy:
accordingly I see the world as a whole now operating in the most laissez faire environment that has
existed since before the Second World War. ( In fact, this is yet another resonance of the period
leading up to the Great Depression. ) . In support of this are observations by a number of investment
analysts who had noticed the increasing correlation of stock markets around the world. A typical

" But a new school of investment management argues that geographical allocation is
becoming a thing of the past. As companies become globalized and economies are
increasingly run along the same lines, it is not a question of where you are investing but what
you are investing in." ( Juliet Oxborrow, Investment International, September 1997. )

But ,if true, this means that the global economy as a whole has obviously become subject to the
forces that lead to classic business cycles. ( I think it has. )

Looking at the world in this way as a single economy, the equity markets have been in a bear
market since August. The Morgan Stanley Capital International Index of world stock markets which
has experienced the biggest bull run in history, peaked in August and has been falling since.

What do I think will happen next? I am sure that the bulls still believe that we are just experiencing
"healthy corrections" - a wonderful buying opportunity - but I see all significant stock markets
around the world as overvalued. Obviously, the problem is most severe in the United States, but it is
also true of Europe, Latin America and ( very apparent now ) has been true of Asia. As the excess
credit and production capacity that have been created by the boom of the last fifteen years unwinds,
all of them will, I believe, fall much further. The sequence is unpredictable, and probably doesn't
matter anymore. I suspect that Japan's problems will become significant fairly soon. The most
overbought market - the USA - could well be actually the last to reach bottom: after all the forces
that have led to such overvalue are more powerful there than they are in other countries.

How far down will the equity markets go? If we revert to mean, then 50% and more in the US is
eventually feasible, with comparable declines around the world. As I said in earlier Issues of the
Skeptical Investor, it is this huge downside risk in stock markets that led me to sell out of them
some time ago. ( I currently hold only 3% of my portfolio in equities ) . As of today, that certainly
looks to have been the right decision!

And, if my assessment above is more or less correct, it means that the global economy has now
entered the deflationary contraction phase of a massive credit driven bubble. It will be very
difficult, if not impossible, even for the USA to arrest this through DOMESTIC reflation.

Copyright ( C ) 1997 Max Moseley

Return to Index Page

Yellow Jacket
(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:01 - ID#164147)
BYRON: This is a college library and the view from where I'm sitting is pretty good too!! :- ) ) ) ) ) ) )

IT: It looks like Dow components and other domestic giants had a good day. Many international issues traded in the US were losers. Compaq lost a little and had the heaviest volume 25M+ shares traded.

Gotta go now. The Marlins made me lose a beer bet and I have to go pay up! Good night y'all, as they say here in Dixie. Will check in when I get back home Thursday.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:05 - ID#201238)

To All - the reason why this site is quiet tonight is because some of you younger people are quicker at figuring out how to get on! You do not type with ten thumbs like some of us old farts do! As a long time Kitcoite, I am almost used to having a problem getting access when I want it the most. It is the second most frustrating experience in life, tied with being a gold bug and a parent! That said, here are a few observations today.

In the early part of the day when the dow was up 200 or so, the S&P 500 was only up less than 10 points ( equal to dow plus 80 or so ) . Was this a disguised 'flight to quality?' Big cap stocks being bought while the index funds were liquidating to meet redemptions?

Why would any company buy back its own stock? The function of any corporate management is to deploy the capital of the company to maximize the return of the stockholders investment in their area of expertise. Thus when IBM announces it is going to buy back its own stock it is an admission that the management has no idea what to do with the money in their industry. Is this an insight into the high tech area? I don't know, but it would seem that if they had so much extra money around they could buy someone in their own industry. Maybe someone made a lot of low cost money available to them? Nah, couldn't be.

Gold, silver, platinum and palladium had strong rallies very late today. US bonds and dollar tanked. Could this be the start of something?

Best of all, the man we all hate to listen to, RJ, covered his shorts in gold. We hate to listen to him because he has been right and we have endured so much pain.

I just feel that we are in a period of great adjustment, and that the majority on this site are going to be well rewarded. Gold has bottomed, gold stocks have bottomed, the Dow has topped, and the dollar bull has cracked. BTW do you know who is visiting Clinton today? Which country bought 9 million oz of gold last year? Which country will have the largest trade gap with the US, now and for a long time? Which country might not like taking paper in the form of US Bonds in exchange for its exports? And, finally, which culture has always had a profound respect for gold?

Just a few comments on such a quiet evening.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:11 - ID#364147)
@ ain't life great
Hang Seng up 1,386 ( 15.30% )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:15 - ID#20135)
Wow! I sure called that one wrong.

Hong Kong Hang Seng ^HSI 9:12PM 10310.25 +1250.36 +13.80%

Well, that is why I enjoy hanging out here. I have so much to learn.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:22 - ID#344328)
So is it worth noting that breadth was very lackluster during the rally today? Or is it not really worth noticing? Myself I'm quite a novice and would love to hear someone else's opinion on this observation!

PS -- very good summary of the kind of views I've seen on this board. Point your hopelessly bullish friends to it.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:35 - ID#252132)
@Watch The Bouncing Dow:
So now that Hong Kong is up 13-15% so far, does that mean the US markets will be down???

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:37 - ID#30116)
arden -- I work in 'high tech'. If you think that a high tech company buying it's on stock is an insight in to their managerial abilities.... :- ) ) you ain't seen nothin! Look at those who bought INTC today. Intel up 10 1/4 on 51.95 million shares! Why? I have a dual PII board with 96 meg of ram. This machine was built for some special apps that I have for it. Is the PII 'faster' than a standard Pentium, yes. Is it worth most people buying it? NO. Intel is already being asked by customers to resume production of older processors, because they're cheaper. This is so that they can make cheaper PCs at higher profit margins. Those very margins that are under so much pressure now. Arden, the tech managers are clueless.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:38 - ID#252132)
@ Their Back:
A. Goose: You might also find some chart sites at Bart's Web Resource Links site located at the top of this page. The site was absent without leave for awhile. : )

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Strad -- Been off the net since just after my last posting this morning. Could not keep any data flowing. Got more off the radio than off the net! BAD! This must be the 'Honey, I really didn't mean it day'. Most of the markets gaining back yesterdays loses. What a rigged scam!!! HAR!!!

Yep. That's what I was looking for in silver. There is no way to know what it will do down the road a piece, but this was what I was looking for just for this period in time. You notice how it also recovered fully! The question is now gold. Will it make a similar move tomorrow like silvers today, or are they all primed to move up for a spell. Item 2 on that is gold has made a 50% correction back up towards 325 ( Dec ) , and is also at a resistance level. Let's see how it plays it. Platinum impressed me with its more than adequate recover after breaking down to 392! I really thought it had rolled over and died. These ARE indications that there is more life in the metals than most make them out to have! Just some metals are more apt to be 'couch potatoes' after getting up to fetch a beer.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:42 - ID#401460)
CNBC,NBC,GE, Wintel and The Boys
Is this Media market manipulation or what?

"CNBC cable television station also reported that Intel Corp., the world's largest computer chip company, planned a buyback, but Intel denied the report.

By day's end, the Dow Jones industrial average retraced more than half of Monday's drop to post its biggest point gain ever for a single day. The Dow rose 337.17 points to close at 7,498.32.

Analysts cited buybacks as a major factor."

No conspiracy, just business as usual. The question is will it work?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:43 - ID#221228)
@ Fort Knox
Just load up at will boys, and have pleasant
stay. Our dollars will walk your way.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:45 - ID#30116)
Funny thing. All the charts that I looked tonight look pretty ugly. Not just gold chart either! My new high/low indicators..... I've never seen them at such extremes! We had a hell of a rally today, BUT, something is really rotten here. Perhaps what is needed is a 'SHORT ORDER' cook? :- ) )

I really want to see just how far this rally will go. Will this be the ultimate case of buyers remorse here? The $VIX chart is amazing! The complacency is unreal. Come to think of it.... This whole scenario is unreal... The Dow rallied when the economy was in recesion. Now the economy is 'booming', could this be a fitting end to the bull?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:45 - ID#258224)
@.. Arizona Star Shareholders, 51% owners of Alderban, Chile 19.5 moz au, 5 B lbs cu
To Owners of Arizona Gold ( AZS-VSE ) stock: I am initiating a proxy solicitation to take control of the board from Bema ( BGO-TSE ) and bar the recent Placer Dome takeover of Arizona Star's 51% interest in Cerro Casale and related Alderban properties. The web site is at

Yes Virginia, I do believe that shareholders can make a difference if they only try.


(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:48 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Someone mentioned here that large companies, etc, were buying their equities during the beginning of the '29 crash in an attempt to halt the slide. Could be a repeat of that scenario in the works at this time. Most interesting!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:55 - ID#348169)
EB - Re: Your 11:13 Re: My 8:45 - THANKS. I needed that; at least ONE serious trader is paying attention to content. BTW - IYO ( In Your Opinion ) - Does my long cotton trade stand a chance? OA ( Opinion Appreciated ) . P.S. - My dogs name is Toto. ;- )
And Thanks, 'BillnOregon' and 'Hello Ted', and any others I may have missed -Yesterday and Today- ( the Beatles ) .

Lurker oo7
(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:57 - ID#310198)
@ Puetz
Where's our crash by 10/31 and why do you only post when things ( dow ) are going your way?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:58 - ID#266144)
to Chip off the old block
Chippie: Now that's what I call volatile.. ( HK ) Back to yer soon, but where did you learn so much?

Lurker oo7
(Tue Oct 28 1997 21:59 - ID#310198)
@ Mooney

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:01 - ID#334321)
@ Dak
Do I have to tell ya all me secrets?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:01 - ID#30116)
Durable goods tomorrow at 8:30 A.M. and Greenspan speaks at 10:00 A.M. Oh, and it's October 29, 19??

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:04 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Panda -- I'm still perusing stuff, but though the DOW recovered yesterdays loses, the SPOOS did not. And unless they get real busy making and breaking the 935 and plus area, they WILL die. That's the chart that looks butt-ugly to me right now. Numbers today in it only comes up to the supporting trendline of July, August and September. Unless it proves otherwise, some real serious damage has been done to it yesterday. Perhaps too much.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:05 - ID#30116)
Business news saying the 'Asian Flu' didn't last long... Anyone care to walk by the cemetary, whistling as we mosey along.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:06 - ID#57232)
@Thanks Panda 19:42 - on Kitco again!
Kiwi: I e-mailed Donald your posts in the teetering ( or dead ) banks in Japan, and the Rudiger Dornbusch statement around Oct 14 that "Japan was about to collapse financially". Puts our masterfully manipulated recovery in perspective.
All: Donald is still unable to read and write -- except by e-mail. This Kitco web address seems to work faster that the one I've used for the last month.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:12 - ID#57232)
All: Does anyone know if the Hedge fund raid on Hong Kong is over? If it is that would be highly suspicious wouldn't it? We'll know in a few days, I would think. Since Donald is off-line is there someone out there who can follow up Kiwi's work in digging up stuff on Japan? Is Japan teetering or falling? Do they have the reserves or not?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:13 - ID#30116)
Eldorado -- Agree. On a day with a rally like this, one would think that my new high/new low indicators would have rebounded. They didn't. As a matter of fact, they registered their lowest readings that I have data for. Admittedly, I only have a few years worth. The point is, I think the BEAR is on. We may have some more 'rally' material ahead, but I think it's going to be the stuff for the "SHORT ORDER COOK" :- )

I can't get over the volume figures and $VIX. It took so much, "Energy", to un-do what was done yesterday. Lot's of work, lot's of heat. Boy I wish I could post some charts. Bart's technical problems have taken down the posting feature.................. :- ( (

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:15 - ID#225283)
Hong Kong Hang Seng Bull fight begins

AND they are off.....Place your bets gentlemen..Lookout Japan...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:16 - ID#335190)
Bob @ 21:45
I hope you are sucessful with your attempts to gain a favourable resolve.
Men of action, do make a positive difference. Yes, others expect someone else, to attend to the details. Very few persons, in 1997, will engage in a conflict ( fight ) , most, prefer to walk away, and bitch. I wish you every success, and good fortune. Take Care.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:17 - ID#401460)
Buying to Soon?
A while back, on Kitco, some one posted that they had recently talked to a person who remembered the 29-37 crash, and they said that many people lost what they had by buying back into the market to soon.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:17 - ID#286277)
Noticed very little comment on moneyline tonight regarding gold in today`s market. any comments?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:22 - ID#266144)
Spill 'em
Chippie Every last one, in your own time of course

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:22 - ID#57232)
@Home re - Donald
I just e-mailed Donald this site address.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:23 - ID#433171)
10 to 1 shot he raises rates. The madness has gone far enough and this is the best time to nip it the butt. Time to get it over with and buy some time to mop up the mess before the elections.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:23 - ID#93177)
PANDA - What is happening?
The more you look at today's charts and try to figure out the technicals,
the more I am convinced of a brilliantly orchestrated massive delusion
of a Great Bull still charging. As my previous posting stated,
the manipulators had their day. Now who are these manipulators? The are
the ones running the "REAL" show. The exchange owners - specialists firms
the Merrill Lynch's and Goldman Sach's etc. The guys who make an the
"orderly market" for everyone.

If you take a look at the tremendous bounce off the lows at about 10:00Am
a 1 minute chart would show it pretty good. What can create such a move in a short
period of time? Well the only answer I can come up with is the following:

The specialist firms have the money since, they made a killing when they
sold short at the highs earlier this month and at the August highs.
This morning they were not too greedy and probably Slick Willy with Mr.
Rubin decided now is not the opportune time for the real blood bath so,
they covered their short positions on a dime. That covering created an
aura that the bull is still alive. Then the fun started when all the small
firms and investors who were short, had to scramble to cover before they
did it in their pants. Well where did they get the shares to cover
their little short positions?
They got them from the fellows who "make the orderly Markets"
they shorted the Compaqs, Intels,etc...and gave the market as much stock as
they could buy and they still have plenty for tomorrow!!
WHO SAID OUR MARKETS ARE FREE??????????? The markets are free....
for easy pickings ( FOR THE FEW SELECT ) and if we do all our homework, we just may
make a few pennies here or there!!!!

But, it certainly is not easy and the big boys know that time
is running short for them also!!! ( But, they have the circuit breakers
to bail them out ) or....HOLD EVERYONE ELSE IN!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:24 - ID#225283)
Japan in deep kimchee

Japan has very litle gold reserves backing their play and they are awash in dollars...USD bonds...and as of recently bad asian paper...they have been trading USD bonds on the sly for GOLD.By US banking standards and regs the boys with the brief cases and adding machines should be hanging closed signs on the front doors but....

the government lets them make up the rules as they go along.....and the farmers and Japanese people have refused to go along with a US style bailout.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:30 - ID#287207)
I may be the only one here that is disappointed in gold's reaction so far but this is a real lesson for those who think that it is a hedge against
a market melt down. For the last 2 days the markets have been falling and gold has gone up less than $10. The "real" crash won't be much different--24 hour media coverage, telephones to brokers jammed, Net sites overloaded--still gold doesn't do diddly. Many excuses can be found--not enough time for gold to react but it reacted real nice today when the markets started back up--and a whole bunch of other "if only's" Fact is gold had all the conditions needed to move and it didn't. Comments?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:31 - ID#334321)
One @ a time will sloooowly drip out but will have to wait till I get together with MOO on Saturday ( that weekend only thingy ) said with sly grin thing

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:34 - ID#401460)
Gold/rate increase/
skelly : Yes, I am really upset that I listened to a broker, and didn't buy the "DIP" I wanted to buy more Metals/Nat.Resources. Gold is on its way up this time ( I think ) . I have no idea how AG is going to handle this rate increase. He is in a situation now where he can't raise rates, UNLESS the last two days has totally prepared the public for anything. A rate increase now may have no affect.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:34 - ID#223146)
At 11:00 PM 0n 10/27/97 Robert Rubin called the Chairman of IBM and said " Start Buying back your stock at 10:00Am tomorrow, I will be be in touch with the other DOW stock Chairmans through the night". At 12:05 AM 10/28/97 Al Greenspan called his staff to notify all specialists on the NYSE who handle DOW component stocks that the Federal Reserve has arranged through their credit banks unlimited credit to take all Dow component stock sell orders to book and hold in inventory if necessary. Both the Staffs of Rubin and Greenspan contacted all Mutual Fund Managers
and told them under their Charters they were not to sell any further stock if the Market fell 500 points. Instead they were to notify their customers who wanted redemtions that they would deliver shares of the underlying portfolio rather than cash.

Do You See How Easy It Is---- This was rumored to have happened in 1987!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:39 - ID#413109)
@ observation point
All- Thanks to some kind soul, and there are many here, who posted
comparison charts of the '29,'87 and '90 crashes, recently, I found
in looking these charts over that we should expect a strong rally around
the 7100 level, and sure and behold.
what I see here is a sucker's rally, and one that will be short lived.
what the golds will do from here is anyone's guess, but based on recent
volume I should think that the expected spike down GS Cole was looking
for, has occurred???
Hi back at you Bill from Oregon. Glad you like my stuff.
Mooney, missed you - good to see you back.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:42 - ID#433171)
Sit back and be patient. Gold has not lost it's role. The establishment wants you to think that. Why if everyone knew what was about to happen, everyone would be rich. Who's going to work the fields and scrub the floors.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:43 - ID#30116)
slick -- Read the posting from speed at 19:57. Pay attention to the last paragraph or two. Could a defacto gold peg be in our future? Wishful thinking on my part.

As to the market behavior! I've never anything like it. The 200 day moving average meant nothing! Look at the Dow, Intel or whatever the BIG 'Blue Chips' are. Now look at the $SOX index ( phili semiconductor index ) , it didn't break the 200 day M.A. The question now is this; Who are the holders of this stock? STRONG hands or WEAK hands??? If they are stong hands, the rally goes on, if they are the weak hands looking for a quick flip... Look out! The next few days could get volatile.

Everyone seems to be looking at 1987 for the model of what is happening here. I think they learned to buy the crashes too well... Let's not forget one more thing, who lost money on this? How do they feel?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:44 - ID#57232)
@Home - Raise rates?
All: I think one of the most important points made tonight about AG raising rates tomorrow was made by Mike Stewart. Presidential elections are coming up soon ( believe it or not! ) , so if AG is to slow the market and economy, he must do it now, or possibly spoil the next election for the Democrats. I would not have guessed that AG would raise rates when a market correction could bring the market down instead, but I also would not have guessed that the market would go up today!
Personally, if I were AG I would not raise rates until spring -- and until I knew more about the Japan situation.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:46 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Selby -- No arguments from me. See my posting of this morning, and yesterday. The ONE thing a trader must realize though is that each day starts afresh, with new 'possibilities'. Therefore, the game starts anew. All trends change at some point. Start looking forward to tomorrow rather than just peering at the past. Change IS in the wind. On the other hand, one can always buy some other type of stock or paper and don't even look in this direction. Can't imagine that being anybodys sweat of their backs, either way. Enjoy. Drink a beer.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:47 - ID#266144)
Chippie. Deal BBLL

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:48 - ID#401460)
Kitco Posts
Selby ( Toronto ) :Fact is gold had all the conditions needed to move and it didn't. Comments?

Yes, read the the posts on Kitco for the last month.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:49 - ID#286199)
@winding down
Selby: The folks who can afford it don't want it and the ones who want it can't afford it. It really is that simple, I think.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:53 - ID#30116)
Trading was easy today. There were no 'problems' getting through to your broker. It's true, I read it here;

Pure, unadulterated B.S.!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:54 - ID#287207)
Thanks HighRiser: I have read most of the posts on Kitco since July '96.
What's your point?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:56 - ID#30116)
I love this quote from that story;

``I had people opening accounts to buy the market today,'' said Martin Skea, who manages the Charles Schwab World Trade Center office. A line of people had formed at 0745 EDT/1145 GMT, 15 minutes before the office opened today.

And this isn't a mania?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 22:57 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Selby -- One more. Notice how much of that paper wasn't wanted yesterday, but just the opposite today? Gold too will be JUST like that. Its day may be slow in arriving. That'll just make it better! Either that or a horrible alternative. Maybe both in an interim.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:03 - ID#252219)
@ Need Update:
Does anyone have an update on Gold prices in Asia. Vronsky posted awhile ago that gold was up $5.00 +????

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:04 - ID#57232)
@Home the future, dimly
All: Another thought ( gee, I must be careful when I say that ) . If AG and RR ( I keep thinking Ronald Reagan ) are this adept at controlling the US markets -- as we think -- than what is there to keep this rally going ( at a slower pace, I hope- with a few healthy corrections ) all the way to 1999-2000? I admit this would be difficult given what is happening in SE Asia, but not impossible for our White Night. Perhaps mainland China will emerge relatively unscathed. Don't forget the bullish effect of the US baby boom!
Gold and gold stocks would probably rise over this period, after the Jan 1998 deadline for the ECU/EMU qualifications race.
All I can say is that if these are the plans by the "New World Order" I sure hope our AG never falls asleep at the tiller. Every year we go up like this we increase the odds of a crushing, world-wide paper meltdown. Of course, a war, or energy crisis might be more than the system can bear, even for our White Night.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:05 - ID#255151)

Finally got back. For you y2k freaks, here is required reading-

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:05 - ID#30116)
Selby -- You're right. People will buy the gold when it's too late. If this currency thing continues on its' merry little way, there are only two choices. Inflate or deflate. To have a tarrif war or not. It's all in the currencies. The globalization of everything has put everyone at risk. Events in Asia cannot be controlled by the Fed or some executive order. Gunboat diplomacy, maybe. The world has changed, and as usual, most have not noticed it. Why was the smart money bailing out of tech stocks due to the Asian turmoil while the public buys the dip?

Time to hit the hay. Good night all.............

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:06 - ID#433171)
Hang in there, gold is like a loaded spring right now. Remember every dog has it's day and now it's gold's turn.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:09 - ID#334321)
Where's EB 2night?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:10 - ID#206358)
It's a small encouragement in this financial crisis moment!let see:

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:11 - ID#393102)
What if they gave a dip and nobody came?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:13 - ID#206358)

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:13 - ID#31868)
Reading through the posts tonight is interesting as usual. To me the $ factor in gold is not a big deal. 10% in either direction in the price of gold does not mean squat.

At this very specific juncture in time you either believe gold is going to skyrocket or you do not. Day, week or monthly purchase of gold and trading on that basis for a few bucks does not make sense to me.

My opinion is that it is clear that any gold purchased at today's prices, 10% in either direction of today's right now price is a bargain. To me, anyone willing to trade me gold for monopoly figment standard paper is a deal I have, do and will continue to make each and everyday.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:14 - ID#197304)

Are you long gold or silver futures? Is it true that RJ is covering gold shorts? I'd kinda like to put on some more longs but have been beat up lately. Was tempted today but this stock market has got me scratching my a--. I don't know what to do. Have you heard from Oldman, GSC, Puetz. Seems like alot of gold cheerleaders out tonight with alot of bluster and not much substance. I need advice!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:23 - ID#252219)
@Gapping Jaws:
To Techkie Types: Has anyone checked out the Bollinger Bands on the Daily gold stocks charts, for example, Homestake. Are not those the widest jaws you every seen?? := )
Try URL: and the 180 days chart!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:23 - ID#335190)
MAI Fast Track @ Corporate USofA Citizen's urging fast track!!!!
October 28, 1997
U.S. trade bill faces problems in House

WASHINGTON, Oct 28 ( Reuters ) - President Clinton's bid to win special trade negotiation powers appeared to be in trouble in Congress Tuesday amid Republican criticism of Democrats for failing to support their own president.

Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott said he may not schedule a vote on the so-called fast track trade negotiation authority because of delaying amendments threatened by miniority Democrats over the issue of campaign financing.

Lott told reporters that giving Clinton power to negotiate trade deals without fear they will later be changed by Congress would help reassure financial markets rocked by financial turmoil in Southeast Asia. "I think it would be reassuring to the markets if we could get fast track going," the Mississippi Republican said. "I'm not going to do it if the Democrats and the administration are going to play games."

Meanwhile, more than 100 top corporate executives signed a letter that was sent to every member in the House and Senate urging them to support the fast track legislation.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:23 - ID#433171)
Wall street is going to get some more doses of the big bad bear this week. Then they won't be so eager to climb aboard a ship thats been wreaked. Greenspan is done jaw boning the market now and his also given fare warning. Watch out below guys.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:23 - ID#334321)
Good night DAK. I am very very tired.See you 2morrow!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:26 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Goldfinger -- I wasn't kidding when I posted very early this morning that gold still has the potential to go to 302-303 ( per this time frame, lower later ) . This is not saying that it will, BUT....... Let us watch to see if it can make decent headway up. To prove it, it MUST get above 325 Dec! Anything less is very very suspect! Some say above 340. I post this only in the attempt to give those who want to purchase for a longer time period than just simply short term trading, a scenario that MAY still be hanging out there. Good trading.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:29 - ID#348169)
Selby - I love ya babe, ( bald detective/sergant type guy with lollipop in mouth ) , but the fact that gold has 'only gone up less than $10' in the few days that the stock market has been so volatile and unpredictable does not seem to negate its 'safe haven' quality to this student!
Reify - Thanks! Especially since you know that I never have anything good to say about Buffalo ( except that when in North or South Dakota one really should try it at dinner medium rare! ) .

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:34 - ID#57232)
@At the ??
Mike ( @Aussie ) : What do you think of this stunning comeback? Will we have an encore tomorrow, or the beginning of a 1929 - style crash and bear?
Barring a Japanese meltdown of a key central bank, what do you think? I must admit, if that world-class unknown Japanese bank does let loose -- there might not be any warning. A new kind of post cold war brinksmanship -- perhaps that Red Phone in the White House has a new use? Mobilize the CB's and the exchanges? How many times will we be brought back from the brink of paper immolation?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:37 - ID#433171)
Eldo, hell for all I know we could be trading at $280 before long. But we both know what is in the cards here. The risk reward ratio is sure looking good for gold for patient investors. I hope your in when it pops.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:38 - ID#31868)
You might want to check out ABC Nightline

Tonight- Idiot's Guide to the Market

Really, no kidding

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:40 - ID#348169)
Panda - Re: Your 22:56. Think back over the last few months. I'm sure everyone here has bumped into numerous people that have said 'Boy I sure hope the market corrects so that I can get in!' In fact I bet many ( most? ) today had ( or heard ) people ask the question - 'Is now a good time to buy?' I certainly had that question put to me today.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:41 - ID#371129)


(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:43 - ID#2082)
at Chippie Dippie DAK...oh my
it is too early for ...

I honk for Anti-Podans...or whatever...... nicks?? rators?? Kwiiwwiwwii?? pick the cotton under a full Mooney...

i'm comin at ya' moon.........

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:44 - ID#287207)
Mooney: Whats in your lollipop. We figure out last spring that over the last quarter century gold had gone from $850 to now 315 and that 850 worth of DOW is now worth--even today--over 3000. Argue a hundred eitherway it still looks more like a ships graveyard than a safe haven. Still its a tough question. War doesn't raise the price, inflation, global stock market meltdowns, major currency problems, Presidental problems, warm pacific winds--nothing.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:45 - ID#57232)
Goldfinger ( @eldorado ) : If it pops, I hope you are in gold bullion, and not gold stocks, because the pop this time will have no savings cushion, and the equity downdraft will bring your gold stocks down too -- even though we have had a gold bear for over 1 1/2 years! I think the gold market is still smarting from the Swiss bombshell ( even if it is false, the public bought the story! ) Also RJ may not be short any longer, but he is not long, either. ANOTHER may not be giving us a true picture of the resources behind AG and the Central banks. He/she can still be right about the dollar/oil/gold relationship, and not see the reserves that are available to the powers that be.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:46 - ID#242276)
Where is RJ's post on his covering the gold shorts?

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:49 - ID#348169)
EB - GREAT! I'll peruse your Cotton results on tommorrows Kitco. In the meanwhile - Goodnight ALL! And especially to our friend Glenn!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:50 - ID#93177)
Night Line Special "Wall Street Celebrates Victory Today"

Boy O Boy What is going to happen when these cocky Main Street
Investors realize as someone from the "Motley Fool" just stated on ABC's
Nightline program that" the small investor is smarter than the professional
he didn't panic like they did yesterday." That is Absurd and the blood will
run in the streets. When this bubble really blows and these people keep buying the dips, those professionals will control the world!!!!

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:50 - ID#433171)
Why are dealers having trouble keeping gold coins on the shelves. How come old gold coins are becoming nonexistant. Why are coin dealers investing mega bucks in newer larger facilities and bringing on big sales forces. Get the picture. These professionals know more about whats going on than all of us put together. Now if that don't capture your interest nothing will.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:54 - ID#57232)
Goldfinger: I am buying gold coins too -- they at least can't vanish like yellow "paper" or gold stocks can -- if some Central Banker falls asleep at the switch. I also cannot believe that gold bullion can go much lower.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:55 - ID#401460)
Same Old Crap
Selby, no point really, I had additional comments on that post and when I read them I realized that I was just rehashing the same old crap about, CB,s, Bond Sales, Ruben GS & friends, China balance of trade, market manipulation, IBM & Intel the entire Wintel consortium jumping in with stock buy back stories, their Banker- GS/Ruben and his partners the Rockefellers, CNBC, NBC & their landlord Rockefeller Center ( being purchased by partners Goldman Sachs & the Rockefellers ) , GE owner of NBC, Swiss Rumors of Gold sales, Swiss discovery of Nazi relationship of storage of Jewish Gold, Rockefeller Standard Oil sales to Hitler, Rockefeller and the United Nations. The House of Jardine's moving out of Hong Kong, Ruben's expertise as a currency trader and Vice Chairman at Goldman Sachs, the largest investment banker in Mexico at the time of the Peso collapse At which time he was made Secretary of the Treasury. NAFTA and GE's plant in Mexico, ETC. ETC. & ETC.

Somebody made a lot of money the last couple of days and it was not the average Joe on the street. They made money on stocks this time, maybe it will be Oil next time. Check out Exxon, BP Oil etc. AND, who knows maybe next time it will be GOLD. By the way who has controlling interest in GE, EXXON, BP Oil, Chase Bank, etc. What was the politicians name that initially got Clinton out of the Draft. What was the name of the Politician who was the biggest supporter of the Hillary Health Care Bill. What was the name of the politician who sponsored the Federal Reserve Bill, and what was his Grandson's name who became vice president of the United States in the 70's. Oh how I remember the 70's

"The principal shareholders of the Federal Reserve include: Rothschild Banks of England
and Berlin; Warburg Banks of Hamburg and Amsterdam; Laz ard Brothers Banks of Paris;
Israel Moses Seiff Banks of Italy; Chase Manhattan Bank of New York; Lehman Brothers of New York; Kuhn, Loeb of New York; and Goldman, Sachs of New York. This profitable charade has been going on for 81 years! "
"The power transfer created by the Federal Reserve System was further extended with the
Monetary Control Act of 1980 which gave the Federal Reserve System control over all
depository institutions, whether or not the banks were members of the system."
"This act also, among other things, gave the Federal Reserve the power to use the debt of
foreign nations as collateral for the printing of Federal Reserve notes. This now permits
saddling the American tax payers with foreign debts! "

Now you see why I did not include all of this crap in my post. I am sorry for posting this crap again, I know many think it is a conspiracy but it is not - JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL.

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:56 - ID#2082)
Here is a quickie...


Greenspan will be forced to do nothing AND gold will go to the shitter...although my skirt is well close to my ankles right now ( but i'm wearing NO knickers ;- ) ) . Matter of fact it is an elegant evening dress...uhuh...oh yeah...uhuh...oh yeah...I will seriously consider more shorts on a decent rally ( soon ) . shine my patent leather pumps...i'm gettin' slutty...

(Tue Oct 28 1997 23:56 - ID#257148)
salt of the earth @kitco
All G'day
Moonie* Good to see ya back
TED You always sleeping son?
 Good to see facing this way. What does You Yuk me actually mean, you know, in English...Frog Fart?
Auric Ah, but that version of Extraordinary Popular Delusions &c misses all the good bits - The Crusades, Witches, Alchemy, Beards, Relics and, Dearest to many of us Prophecy...
JTF Your kind words keep me inspired that and watching the birds, they seem to give more accurate indicators than Head & Shoulders, Rhinos, Buffalos, MACD, Stochastics, but I do go on....
Mike Sheller, I am checking same, if credit is due, credit will be given in no unstinting measure. Jury duty, oh....