Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:00 - ID#403159)
I will come to the rescue and no man can stop me from holding up the market.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:01 - ID#371443)
ID#371443:Date: Fri Oct 31 1997 16:52
You owe an apology you illiterate scum

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:04 - ID#215208)
Darn. Lost you all.
Past the witching hour. This time I can't find you, and can't even find Nov. 1 on Bart's drop-down list. Well, if you receive this, I wish you all a good night and a profitable November.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:04 - ID#30116)
FWIW -- S.E. Asia acts as a pool of cheap labor. The demand in the U.S.A. for engineers is mostly of the software type. The hardware guys are not in anywhere near as great a demand. Most manufacturing is done off-shore. Hardware designs are being done by fewer and fewer people. Manufacturing is done in Asia of one flavor or another, for cost. As an example; An integrated circuit is designed in the U.S. It is simulated on a CAD ( computer Aided Design ) program here in the U.S. When the design is 'proven', the mask is made here. The wafer is coated , exposed, developed, and surfaced coated in Malaysia or the Phillipines ( usually ) . The Wafer is then shipped back to the U.S. for laser trimming, and intra U.S. for back lapping ( a grinding process to reduce the thickness of the wafer ) . Then the wafer is shipped back to the S.E. Asian area where it is sliced in to individual dies ( chips ) which are then put in to packages. Sometimes the Integrated Circuit is shipped back to the U.S. for testing, but most times it goes to another area in S.E. Asia for this purpose. The reason a lot of this is done in S.E. Asia has to do with enviromental laws in the U.S. Some very toxic chemicals are used in the manufacture of 'chips'. Needless to say, it's not a popular thing in this country.

Now that I've put you all to sleep, that point is this; In order to make cheap electronics, you need low costs. High P/Es demand this. As a consequence, those Pac Rim countries are very important to the High Tech companies. So you see, "We really have to bail them out because...."

The average chip has done more traveling in its' creation than most people will in a lifetime. Look at all of the industries involved in the process.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:06 - ID#30116)
ANOTHER -- I thought FDR did this already. :- ) )

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:06 - ID#386276)
T/A says that we have now initiated a new trend and this trend is down.
The initial reaction by the global public confirms this.
Whilst we are trending downwards we should follow the t/a for down-trends.

Lower lows + lower highs.
Sharp internal drop-offs followed by rally's that fail.

Ever since the dow bounced back up, we have been travelling down, in a trend channel.
Even with the manipulation, we are still confined to this channel.
This formation slowly builds over a period of time.
As the masses start to realise this, so will they more and more start to stop their buying and increase their selling.
This should build up, more and more presure, untill it becomes a rush to exit.

Two weeks ago I was looking for the up-trend to be broken .
One week ago I was watching it being broken.
This week I have watched the new down-trend being confirmed.

If you have a close look at the waves of the dow since the recovery peak, you will see that they are conforming to t/a that applies to down trends.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:07 - ID#341111)
Dear Tolerant1,

RE your 16:18 post

Date: Fri Oct 31 1997 16:18
tolerant1 ( @Tequilaville ) ID#31868:
TO ALL: You have $100,000 right now to invest. Where do you invest it?

Believe I would invest the $100,000 in a nice little cabin with a few acres of fertile ground and good water. Gold is wonderful, but it won't feed you and house you when the chips are down. A good garden and a cottage will.

Many posters at Kitco worry about having lots of gold in case of a collapse, but how many have really thought of where the groceries will come from, or where they will lay their head at night.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:08 - ID#215208)
Hey, found you.
Oh, there you are. Well good night anyhow. May visions of gold bars dance thru your heads.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:09 - ID#30116)
@Cap't Morgan is still here!
Yes, November 01 has disappeared!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:11 - ID#372100)


Steve - Perth
(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:11 - ID#284177)
South Korean market closes up 5.5%

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:12 - ID#30116)
Time to hit the hay........... Good night all, and remember the short order cook. :- ) ) It looks like the trend has changed for equities.

Earl -- I wondered where you went. Later dude.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:12 - ID#257148)
New Calendar
November the 1st where are you??? come out and play....Cooooooeeeeee

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:14 - ID#227238)
Anyone on the West Coast: Since the addition of the new time dimensions, I am no longer able to cross the barrier to the new day, when Kitco's clock crosses midnite. If someone has the solution, please email same. I'm stuck here at 12:59 Oct 31. ...... I'd appreciate it.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:14 - ID#401460)
Where is the 1st

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:16 - ID#225283)
@ YU

are you out there....would love to hear more on your feelings about the colony ( ex-that is ) ...How is your beautiful daughter--Sum Yu Ng this fine Saturday?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:16 - ID#227238)
Ignore that last post. .... It's like magic. All it took was a post. .... the only thing I didn't try.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:16 - ID#255190)
Lost In Timw Warp

Kitco just rolled over to Nov 2nd. I can't get to Nov 1st. Also can't get Oct 31st. When I do submit with Ot 31 it gives me Oct 30th. BART ITS NOT WORKING.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:19 - ID#244207)
Nick - Your charts, perceptions and conclusions are both awesome and ominous. Even many of those who give credence to your forecasts still fall victim to the notion that markets always rise in the long haul. There is a fatal flaw in this reassured reasoning. Historically, stock market participation has represented a minor percentage of overall investment potential. This was true even in the late 1920's. Now, the lion's share of investment money ( as well as home equity and credit card "money" ) is in stocks. When this market turns, many, many people will get burned badly. They not only will stay away from the market for the rest of their lives, but they will also inculcate this aversion into the next generation of potential investors. Those investing for the long haul better hope that cryogenics is perfected in their lifetime, so that they may "live" to see a time when they will once again, at least, break even after this debacle.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:19 - ID#225283)
@ YU

are you out there....would love to hear more on your
feelings about the colony ( ex-that is ) ...How is your
beautiful daughter--Sum Yu Ng this fine Saturday?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:20 - ID#225283)
@ YU

are you out there....would love to hear more on your
feelings about the colony ( ex-that is ) ...How is your
beautiful daughter--Sum Yu Ng this fine Saturday?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:22 - ID#227238)
Hmmmm. A post for every update??? Otherwise it's back to the void.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:28 - ID#244207)
Battling the Glitchmonkey

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:36 - ID#2082)
Use your bookmark. It works best. slam dunk the Jazz

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:36 - ID#255190)
@Bart Kitner

I can only see after I post. If I try to back track and then move forward using Nov2 ( no Nov1 available ) I can't see.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:37 - ID#227238)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:38 - ID#401460)
Hong Kong Gold Sat.?
HONG KONG ( AP ) - Gold in Hong Kong opened at $311.65 an ounce on Saturday, down $3.10 from
Friday's close of $314.75.

This is the second friday that I have seen this is Gold being traded on Saturday in Hong Kong

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:39 - ID#227238)
Echo Baker: And so it does. Thanks.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:49 - ID#401460)
Japan Housing Starts
Housing Starts: 9th Straight Month Of On-Year Fall
TOKYO ( Dow Jones ) -Japan's housing starts in September fell 22.2% from the year-earlier month to 114,721 units, the Construction Ministry reported Friday. In August, the figure fell 17.5% on year to 112,004 units. September was the ninth consecutive month of year-on-year decline.

Annualized housing starts were at 1,328,928 units.

Private housing starts for individuals' homes in September fell 37.6% on year to 33,447 units, while rental housing fell 18.1% to 48,943 units.

Meanwhile, multi-unit dwellings fell 5.2% to 30,077 and company housing fell by 7.3% to 2,254.

Multi-unit starts include those of condominiums.

I wonder if these numbers are really that bad or if they are distorted by the earthquake rebuilding. They look pretty gloomy.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:51 - ID#386276)
The Loss of the 'Royal George'

TOLL for the brave,
The brave that are no more !
All sunk beneath the wave
Close by their native shore !

Eight hundred of the brave,
Whose courage was well tried,
Had made the vessel heel,
And laid her on her side.

A land breeze shook the shrouds,
And she was overset ;
Down went the Royal George,
With all her crew complete !

Toll for the brave !
Brave Kempenfelt is gone ;
His last sea-fight is fought,
His work of glory done.

It was not in the battle ;
No tempest gave the shock ;
She sprang no fatal leak ;
She ran upon no rock.

His sword was in its sheath,
His fingers held his pen,
When Kempenfelt went down
With twice four hundred men.

Weigh the vessel up,
Once dreaded by our foes !
And mingle with our cup
The tears that England owes.

Her timbers are yet sound,
And she may float again,
Full charged with England's thunder,
And plough the distant main.

Brave Kempenfelt is gone,
His victories are o'er ;
And he and his eight hundred
Shall plow the wave no more

William Cowper
-Queen's salute
-Spithead Review
-Naval tradition

--------The tragic sinking of the "Royal George"
This occurred while the vessel was at anchor.
At the 'Spithead Review'
The eight hundred sailors were ordered to the side of the ship'
To salute the Queen as she sailed past.-----------

Quite a good analogy of what the masses will do when told.
Hasn't AG told them.
And now we see the result.

 BOO!
(Sat Nov 01 1997 00:55 - ID#2082)
Gold Short
Nick ( Aussie ) - Does this mean you are gonna join the crew and short gold now?? I will feel good with an Dundee next to me..... wrestle a few crocks

(Sat Nov 01 1997 01:13 - ID#386276)

"Troops always break step before crossing bridges"

----------An ancient rule within the army tradition.-----------

Dates back prior to Caesar.
Cyrus was invading Greece in 490c BC.
He had a pontoon bridge built to cross the Hellespont.
The first bridge failed as the troops were marching over it.
The bridge failed because of the synchronized undulations.
Generated by the rhythm of the thousands of men marching in step,
The bridge in spite of being built strong enough to carry horses, charriots and elephants.
Shook, crumbled, and broke up under the power generated by the many feet in 'lock-step'.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Sat Nov 01 1997 01:26 - ID#25867)
To All: Technical problems at this site heat up when the market gets active because suddenly everyone's interested in gold. This, being one of the places they come for information, has put a sudden surge of activity on our ISP's equipment. The techies immediately assume that we must have just posted results from Pamela Anderson's latest photo shoot and begin an enthusiastic search for the evidence. When the only curves they find are weighted moving averages drawn on top of squiggly lines, I think they somehow feel cheated and seek revenge. This would have been apparent to anyone who recently experienced an "Error 403 - Permission Denied" or other error message.

Your ISP is your friend as long as you don't really consume their bandwidth, much the same way your bank manager is more than happy to lend you cash unless you actually need it.

Our discussion group is consuming bandwidth at the rate of about 500 megs a day. Weve added the additional time slot divisions to reduce this number, and weve also revamped ( and improved ) our main quote page for the same reason. As long as the market is flat well be OK, but we are trying to find a permanent solution in time for the real gold rally. Finding a new ISP requires a little additional explaining: After indicating only our data transfer requirements to the sales reps of prospective service providers, their standard response is "Im sorry sir, but we dont host those type of sites"

To LGB: Do me a favor. Kiss and make up with everyone on your bad side. That alone should save us 100 megs a day.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 01:52 - ID#227238)
Someone asked for silver back to 1987. Here is the monthly continuing futures chart. Unadorned. ..... I hope they didn't want the daily data as a file. ....... Not after reading Bart's latest.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 01:56 - ID#227238)
Here is the daily silver chart. Note that silver has retraced almost exactly 1/2 of its recent move. Time to add positions????

Nick Van Excellent
(Sat Nov 01 1997 02:01 - ID#391218)
The Mailman
Take That!!!!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 02:02 - ID#227238)
Here's the SP500 continuing futures contract on a monthly basis going back to '86. Adorned with Bollinger bands. Note how uncommon it has become, since '95, for it to even hint at kissing the moving average. Compare to '88/90 and '94/95. Also of note are the last 4 months spent in a vain effort to crack 960. In the process, it has formed a flat top triangle. ..... Break to the upside?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 02:09 - ID#227238)
Here is the daily SP adorned with a common overbot/oversold indicator. The lower line of the chart indicates conditions on 10/27. The oversold condition was a humongous -728. It's now -195 and probably headed higher, short term.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 02:47 - ID#316409)
@ Bart Kitner
OK Bart! ( Never argue with your favorite site provider! ) All LGB haters, let's be pals, Halloween's over, my mischievous personna shall remain back on the 31st. Is that you Puetz my old friend??

(Sat Nov 01 1997 02:57 - ID#316409)
@ Nick
Thanks for the chart Nick. Looks like my DOW target needs to be around 20,000 by the year 2000 eh??

(Sat Nov 01 1997 03:02 - ID#316409)
@ Silver
Silver to answer your M/S 63 question for common dates. Approx. $28 retail for Morgan pre 1921's, and approx. $16 to $20 wholesale for same, and approx. $18 to $20 wholesale for same CERTIFIED. ( A drag that the Certified's are so low since it costs $15 to $28 to certify a single coin! ) Shows what an incredible bargain they are right now.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 03:10 - ID#357246)
Here are the closing figures for Nov-7.
Tse- 6950-7000
Gold- 315-318

(Sat Nov 01 1997 03:36 - ID#237136)

Warning on EMU.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 03:42 - ID#237136)

Furthermore, these clowns are getting rid of their Gold, too. Brilliant!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 04:09 - ID#289254)
about the slogan InGodWeTrust@USDollar

This week, US stocks should have crashed as S.E.Asian markets, but unlimited supply of US dollar supported it so well. Huh...
S.E.Asian currencies and stocks will not crash if its governments have the right to print unlimited powerful dollars as US government did.
I know earlier Americans are superstitious that they always print a slogan "IN GOD WE TRUST" on their dollars.
Maybe I am superstitious too, is there any other currency also print that? Anyone?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 05:09 - ID#386276)
This Dundee will have to decline for I have employed all my artillary elsewhere.
Punting for some 10,000%'s
I might have to add, if you can push my precious a lot lower.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 05:11 - ID#386276)
Possible falls to be expected if we are to go back to these long term trend lines.
I have put two expected price bands, between which I would expect the price could settle.
If these companies fell to these levels, the dow would be expected to be down the average fall %.
Most times a share price will go lower than its long term trendlines.
Overbought to oversold.
The lower target has a good probability of being bounced off if we were to have a crash.
The upper target has a high probabilty of being pierced in a bear market.
Being that we are now in the beginnings of a bear market,
we could expect that the dow will fall a further 18% to 39%.
That would put the total correction range at 29% to 46%.
Because we are at the end of a 15 year old bull run,
and we have turned the art of investing to a mania.
I would expect that we will bounce off the bottom line.
If we were to break below these levels
then we will not call this a crash
We would call it a collapse.

Co. code Upper price- target Lower price- target Top -High Current price Fall to date Current price to upper price- target Current price to lower price- target High to upper price- target High to lower price- target
GE $ 35 $ 25 $ 76 $ 63 17% 44% 60% 54% 67%
KO $ 50 $ 30 $ 73 $ 56 23% 11% 46% 32% 59%
MRK $ 75 $ 50 $ 108 $ 88 19% 15% 43% 31% 54%
XON $ 45 $ 35 $ 67 $ 61 9% 26% 43% 33% 48%
MO $ 35 $ 25 $ 48 $ 39 19% 10% 36% 27% 48%
IBM $ 80 $ 55 $ 109 $ 96 12% 17% 43% 27% 50%
Average fall %'s 18% 39% 29% 46%

(Sat Nov 01 1997 05:15 - ID#316193)
A subject with this discussion group that gets scant attention is where
to store your physical gold, silver and other valuables. At no time
have I seen private vault services mentioned. Listen up. If you think
your bank safety deposit box is a wise choice, then you are not old enough to have seen banks close during the 30's, and sometimes what was
in those bank boxes was not all there when the banks re-opened. Just a
word to the wise from someone over 65.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 05:34 - ID#255151)
@ Kitco

Well, it sure got quiet in here. Some Halloween party eh? Thoughts ( FWIW ) --I'm thinking that Gold and Silver are a steal at these prices. They have been about the worst investment choice for any time period from mid 1980 to the present. The question now is, where do you think they'll be during your investment time horizon. Personally, my time frame is about 3 years. I think events in the next 2 years, such as the EMU in 1999, and Y2K, will impact the US to a much greater degree than has the Asian crisis so far. If and when we get over the crises of the next 2 years, my wager is that you will be able to use your Gold and Silver profits to buy things like Stocks and Bonds at fire sale prices. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

George Cole
(Sat Nov 01 1997 05:57 - ID#42953)
Good News and Bad News
Note that downside action in the gold complex is rapidly accelerating. It took over 3 months before the early July lows were broken. The way the market is acting, unless we rally sharply and soon, last Friday's lows could be taken out as early as next week. This kind of accelerating downside momentum is typical of the final capitulation phase of bear markets.

The good news is that this gold bear will be over soon; certainly by year-end and probably earlier. The bad news is that we COULD drop quite a bit further in the very near future before the final bottom is in.

Storage Idea
(Sat Nov 01 1997 06:10 - ID#288244)
by Anonymous

Get some PVC piping of a diameter that will fit your coins. Cut pipe to desired length. Put coins in. Use PVC caps and sealant to seal ends shut. Bury in back yard!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 06:39 - ID#255151)

Aussies, NZers, El Nino freaks--required reading. Aussie scientist thinks an Indian Ocean El Nino phenomenon helping Australia.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 06:53 - ID#336297)
Another good idea on what to do with your gold.
In the summer time I use a bar to hold the kitchen door open.
Come winter I load it all in the trunk of the car, for better traction
on slippery roads.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 06:58 - ID#31868)
Farmer: Solid suggestions. I am thinking of something near the ocean. I am thinking of somewhere in the southeast US or in other countries. The US does not seem to be the place in a major financial clanking. My gut tells me it is going to be rather ugly in the states. Large cities and nearby areas will not be the place to be.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:15 - ID#364147)
@ capebreton
Mornin Rumple + all Kitcoites

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:15 - ID#26793)
Steve Puetz: You have been mentioned in the Alan Abelson in Barron's today: "For example, the Steve Puetz Letter reminds us that in '87, 25 million households owned $270 billion in stock mutual funds. At present, 45 million households own $2.3 trillion worth"

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:19 - ID#336297)
Did you hear about the Cape Breton bank robber?
He tied up the safe, and blew the manager

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:20 - ID#364147)
@ Donald
Mornin Donald! 46 and partly sunny on the North Atlantic...I can't scroll back more than a couple of hours ( you too?? )

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:23 - ID#364147)
@ Rumple
Good man! You obviously are familar with Cape Breton and the rocket scientists that populate our ( ?? ) isloated little island...

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:23 - ID#57232)
@after_the_turning_point? Or a surprise rally?
Nick ( @Aussie ) ,Earl: Any comments about which way? We've got the "lock step" in the Market -- any chance of up, rather than the more logical down? Where is all that "scared" money going to go - ie now S. America, and Russia and?
Nick ( @Aussie ) : Great post about wahy the soldiers break step before crossing the bridge -- the ultimate plunge protection! And that even before finishing my morning coffee!
Aurator: Are you still there?
Great to see Kitco at relative peace -- less bandwidth for Bart, too!
Bart -- I'll try to cut down on the prose, too. If we have a real gold rally we may be on our own.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:30 - ID#57232)
@Home - Donald, Steve Peutz
Great post from Barron's, Donald. One of the best publications on the markets I have seen. Says in one paper what others say in a week. Isn't it strange that Steve Peutz is getting more recognition from Barron's than from the hecklers on this site? Says something, doesn't it. Sad to say, it won't stop the hecklers, because they seem to be the least likelly to learn. The noise won't stop me from posting -- and it shouldn't stop you Steve, or RJ.
Donald: Any news from the South American banks? Yesterday we had a news blackout-- I wonder why? A visit from China, perhaps?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:35 - ID#57232)
@Home -- Ted
Ted- Isn't that "your 'Isle'-ated island"?
Any escaped whales nearby? Do we need to get the "Save the Earth" protection team out to your neck of the woods before the Earth starts to wobble? Don't realy think we got a full synopsis from Aurator on that matter,yet. Just a pod of 20 stranded whales.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:42 - ID#334159)
Take serious matters re ILLUMINATI. Forces of those we no very little
about currently shaping the world to "their own means & end" Req'd
reading-"Holy Blood-Holy Grail", "Messianic Legacy" Christ will return
but not in the clouds. Descendent today thru divine bloodline from King
Solomon/King David. "He" will be King of the World" Revelations in Bible
& Nostradamus not predictions but blueprints for the Architects of the World-
the Illuminati. Freemasonery very active-more than before. Watch closely-
George Bush/Brian Mulrooney:Board of Directors-Barrick Gold. Posting same
in short version for reactions.
not prophecy nor was Nostradamus psychic. These are blueprints for the Illuminati

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:46 - ID#364147)
Good mornin JTF! Was just out in the kayak yesterday and still couldn't find a whale ( Fin ) in contrast to last fall when it was hard to look out our living-room window and NOT see a whale spouting off...The seal population is also about 5% of what it was...Mooney said something about El Nino being behind this and maybe he's right as there has been some drastic changes here....Where do you live??

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:47 - ID#57232)
When you can't find your post at that magic hour, you must move forward two days, not one. I have always found my posts, but I must admit it is eeery when you find yourself hopping forward two days in time -- and noone else is there -- except the few that figured it out.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:53 - ID#402127)

JTF: Try here for financial news from Latin America and around the world:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:54 - ID#57232)
@Home - middle USA
Ted - I live in just about the center of the USA -- but I love the ocean -- you may have seen my eyeball to eyeball enounter with a lone grey whale while captaining a rented 37 foot yawl off San Diego -- bigger than the boat, and fortunately kept his tail in the water! Summered on Barnegat bay, NJ when I was young -- and took power boats into the Ocean through the Manasquan Inlet. Some stormy days even the Coast guard boats had difficulty. Great place to sit and watch too!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:57 - ID#57232)
@Hal 9000
Hal: all I get is a picture labeled "The Info Zoo" and an endless loop" back to the picture. Did Dave put all your memory chips back in?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 07:57 - ID#26793)
Hi JTF: I will have to look for news later, family stuff calls but we have a rainy day and the afternoon will give me some time. It was really great seeing Steve mentioned in Barron's. Makes you realize how much Kitco is like family, even have some disfunctionals like most families.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:01 - ID#364147)
Yup,I caught your ocean adventure yesterday....My wife is from the Point Pleasant area ( NJ ) and still has a sister in Brick...Still can't scroll back on kitco and the net version of Barrons isn't out yet so BBL....

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:01 - ID#402127)

There has been no mistake, JTF, the link is functioning perfectly.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:02 - ID#426220)
JTF & HAL: At this website you will find the greatest
selection of Latin American News sources on the Internet.
It contains more than 200 sources in English, Spanish
& Portugues. Enjoy:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:04 - ID#57232)
I'm locked out of Nov first all of a sudden. My local time is Nov1, 1997, and it is 7:05AM. I don't have a clue where this post will go. Hal 9000, did you do something -- I didn't mean it!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:07 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:09 - ID#57232)
@Home -- this is wild!
Hal 9000: Are you sure you didn't do something to my link? I am now posting in November 2, and can only see the rest of you in Nov1 if I post! Please don't get me mixed up with Dave -- I won't pull any of your memory chips out!
Sorry Bart, but I do want to read the posts -- so I will add to the bandwidth today -- This is wild!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:10 - ID#402127)

I am very sorry, JTF, but this mission is too important to allow for human error.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:18 - ID#288352)
IMHO your calendar engine is part of the problems you are having at this
examples: stores short & fulltext messages of same posting time into
different slots
there is no Nov.1 97 available today
Trying to help

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:18 - ID#57232)
@Home- still posting from Nov2 Not kidding, either!
Ted: My uncle lived in Bay Head, NJ on Bridge avenue, I think it was. Twilight lake, where the K-4's stopped at the end of the New York and Long branch, was about 1000 yards toward the beach. Every summer weekend for years it seemed we would walk down to the beach about 1/2 a mile away. Route 35 was almost on the beach, and was typically backed up for miles on the holidays. Sometimes we would go into Point Pleasant. Spent some great hours there when I was young. One of our relatives still has a summer place on Brant Beach!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:19 - ID#288352)
IMHO your calendar engine is part of the problems you are having at this
examples: stores short & fulltext messages of same posting time into
different slots
there is no Nov.1 97 available today
Trying to help

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:23 - ID#57232)
Hal ( 9000 ) : If it wasn't for human ingenuity, I would not have figured out that I must now post from November 2 to see anything on Nov1. I think from the way you are now responding that you have a serious problem. I want you to do a memory check. While you do this, I will contact mission control.
All: family awake -- chores beckon! Will check back in later in the day.
I am not kidding about my problem. Nov 1 has disappeared, although I can still reach October.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:23 - ID#206358)
Since recently the stocks,currency,metals are so complicated,why not try this man:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:25 - ID#31868)
ALL: Given that many think the market has been manipulated, would this not serve to add rocket fuel to the tanking of the DOW. Some suggest that intervention has helped which is referred to as a soft landing. I feel it will serve the complete opposite function.

In addition, if as the onion peeler's suggest that the true price of oil and gold have been masked and kept artificially low, is it not probable that we have already been in a hyper-inflated atmosphere. Once the bell tolls markets will suffer a never before seen collapse.

Prices worldwide would skyrocket overnight hence the preposterously huge figment standard paper supply. Essentially, hyper-inflation having taken place would mean that paper might as well be virtually worthless whether you believe in the metals or not. It would just become a frightfully painful fact of the moment.

I merely ask, as I find much of the of current financial affairs abstract and out of my grasp.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:28 - ID#426220)
Novus Ordo Seclorum ( Rothschild, George Soros et al ) versus the Chinese Dragon --- world monetary and political dominance the prize --- TRICK OR TREAT????????:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:53 - ID#57232)
All: did a virus check, and purged my ram and disk caches -- no problems at my end. It is wild that Nov 1 disappeared for me while I was posting to Hal 9000, or reading his post. Looks like a problem with the Kitco site that just occurred in the last 30 minutes. Can anyone access Nov 1 without posting or purging cache files?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:56 - ID#57232)
It looks like Hal 9000 can't find the post info -- either. I think everyone is having the same problem.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 08:58 - ID#18970)
Jon Kaplan's page indicates that there was a reiterate by a Swiss working group re gold sales. Is this the reason for yesterday's decline in Gold and Silver?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:00 - ID#57232)
@Home y2k
All: Is this what y2k will be like? Frightening! Be nice to your computer! Remember -- at some point when you add that extra ram -- self awareness will be evident. Seriously we are far from this untill our computers are massively parallel -- just a thought to keep in the back of your mind. Now, where did Nov 1 go----------?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:03 - ID#402127)

There is no error, JTF, the system is functioning perfectly. Try this:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:03 - ID#57232)
WW: check your viewing options screen, and tell me if you can still see Nov 1. Then, if you can't purge your ram and memory caches, and post me. You should be able to get through.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:07 - ID#57232)
Hal 9000: If there is nothing wrong -- why are you and I the only ones left? Are you doing something to the Kitco web site?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:08 - ID#30116)
@Volume stats continued...
I forgot to mention yesterday, the monthly volume on the NASDAQ was a record 18.686 BILLION shares. Not that I believe much of the volume numbers from the Nasdaq...

Steve - Perth
(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:08 - ID#284177)
Changing a day is a drama, but changing MONTHS is a nightmare...
So if in case you missed these articles. I cannot find the first of Nov. But it is nearly the 2nd of Nov here in Perth, which is my Birthday ( a whopping 33 yr old! ) Old enough to be a Goldbug's grandson???


Better Sell Now, the real event is yet to come

Beware - the Bear is Loose

Millions of workers lose jobs as rupiah collapses

Shares on the Edge

More blows ahead for HK property

Editorial - The perils ahead ( read the last sentence! )


Normandy Gold Chief declares war on mine costs

Gutnick dreams of huge new mine

Fears for Euro Gold

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:08 - ID#334159)
Vronsky-Feel Chinese Dragon not in opposition to: but- a full fledged
New World Order Conspirator. Would feel that Illuminati has been working for
years to have individuals well placed within all world governments along
with major corporations in order to effect the New Order which will soon
arrive. Mark of the Beast is now being planned/implemented. Not crackpot statements!!!!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:09 - ID#31868)
JTF: I had problems this morning, and I still can not get Nov-1 at all.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:10 - ID#348169)
Hal - Just tuned in and must say there IS a problem right now. I have tried to access the 21:00 time slot of Oct 29th every which way and it won't work for this lad, so others ARE experiencing problems. ( However so slight ) .

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:10 - ID#57232)
@Home - should be doing my chores
Hal 9000 : If you are as good as I think you are, why are you bothering with us little guys at Kitco! It's a big world out there!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:13 - ID#57232)
@Home -- tolerant 1
Half an hour ago, I thought Nov 1 was working. Ahh now I remember -- I kept posting from the first time I logged on -- the first time you can get on -- but later only if you post.
Hal 9000 -- My apologies! Perhaps you will tell us about yourself later.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:13 - ID#223146)
@Observation Point
RE: Nov 2 Problem: There is not a Nov 1 option to choose from when you try to select a date to view.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:15 - ID#30116)
So the combined volume traded on the Dow and Nasdaq was about 33 Billion shares for the month of October. Hello? Is anyone listening ( long term investors? )

If we assume a world population of 6 Billion, then every human being on the planet traded about six shares of U.S. stocks last month. Wow, I should get a job as a stock broker! Think of the commissions!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:19 - ID#57232)
All: Really do have to leave for chores. PLEASE REMEMBER -- YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THE SUBMIT KEY, BECAUSE NOV 1 IS NOT AVAILABLE TODAY. Either purge your cache files and log in fresh from your Kitco book mark, or post a message to see other's posts. Hal 9000 is blameless ( so far! ) Never seen a bug like this before! wild!
See you all later -- chores beckon -- or I may wind up in the dog house tonight.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:24 - ID#348169)
THIS article posted by Donald is a very good summary of why the market must drop substantially. A good Sat. morning read.
Date: Sat Nov 01 1997 08:07
Donald ( @HistorySaysDowWillDrop66% ) ID#26793:

Steve - Perth
(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:24 - ID#284177)
IRAQ say Satan ( USA ) go home....

Nothing like being cooperative eh? Well, on that wonderful note, ( WW3 here we come ) I must head off to bed. Night all. Will definitely wake up on 2nd November. Then I won't be missing 1st November. Simple eh!!
I suggest you all take the day off.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:27 - ID#31868)
The new world order club have a major problem here in the US. There is a very large and well connected hard core right wing. I do not see these individuals and groups just rolling over and giving in.

The US military could easily break into two different factions over the above. It seems to me that people that live in current history circumstances tend to believe that "their" days are so vastly different from those which plaster the pages of history.

There is also much to be said about the major church oriented movements in the US. The mark of the beast will NOT go over well with these folks.

And finally, when people start to really feel threatened by Big Brother I think the response of these individuals might be rather different than what the new world order crowd have planned for.

As for the Chinese, the Chinese people are one thing. The little murderous weasel being paraded around the US is another. He and his murdering thugs have one agenda and it is plain view for all the people of the world to see.

But, everyone sat around and sipped tea while Hitler wrote a book, and then started to set Europe on fire.

The US is making a deadly mistake in doing business with the Chinese weasel, providing this murderer with nuclear anything is insane.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:30 - ID#30116)
The point of this stock trivia on a gold site is this; When the bubble pops it's going to be ugly! Hopes will be shattered. There will be angry people calling for blood. But most importantly is, it will take time for the paradigm to shift in peoples minds. This is why I think we are going to see one hell of a blow-off rally in the near future. Greenspan knows this. The stock market has become a commodity and is trading like one right before our eyes. Timing is everything here. You do not want to be trading any paper when the music stops. I know I sound like an 'end-of-the-worlder', but look at the facts. The best example we have, happened last week. The circuit breakers that weren't. Instead of slowing trading, the circuit breakers added to the frenzy. People panicked that they wouldn't be able to get out by the next shut-down. The implications are there. I really hope that I'm wrong. The alternative is too ugly to contemplate. Not everybody is in yet, but we are getting close. How long? I don't know. The best thing that could happen here is a 1972-73 style bear market. A nice long, slow, grinding bear market. Any other alternative, IMO, would lead to tyranny. Yup, we've gotten real far out of our cave, haven't we...

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:31 - ID#426220)
This past week we all witnessed the market making ALL-TIME
RECORDS: greatest one-day DOW point loss in history on Monday,
followed by the greatest one-day DOW point gain in history on Tuesday. It's my considered opinion that internal dynamics of the market do NOT have the required strength to cause such whipsaw action... there must be an external force exerting inordinate pressures. I may be too old-fashion, but I thought market manipulation was illegal - regardless who the culprit might be... or is it that some are above the LAW?! We received via email visual evidence there is indeed blatant and obscene stock market manaipulation. Here is the report with charts - comments and observations invited:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:33 - ID#334159)
Tolerant-Jack Van Impe & assc. have a lot of influence in the Bible Belt??????

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:35 - ID#31868)
Panda: In the scheme of things I agree. We are not far from the mouth of the cave. But if you think about it, historically, it's not even a second or two.

Maybe this mess we are currently in is the new world order and it is suffering it's determined, self inflicted finality. Total chaos. I look at the amount of golf courses worldwide, the membership of these private clubs seem to be new world order types if you ask me.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:39 - ID#31868)
Concerned Caper: Pardon my ignorance, Jack Van Imp? I am not familiar with this individual. More?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:40 - ID#30116)
Donald -- Good thread at 08:07! The Economist article is dead nuts on! There is no fear. Buy the dips. Park your cash in bods when the market 'dips'. Blah, blah, blah... What does that Chinese dude want with the U.S. Not that Clinton hasn't sold us out, mind you...

Steve - Perth
(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:41 - ID#284177)
Australia & Asia tonight....from ASIASAT1.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:44 - ID#386276)
AG did the job for the moment.
The wave of fear that descended early last week has been purged.
Like all emotions it comes on as a steep wave which rushes asore.
This wave raced in and pounded the masses.

Fortunately the crash team were ready and waiting for it.
It was at its crescendo the day they $bought$ it back up.
Since then it has eased off.
There was a bit of a spike in selling thursday and friday quiet.
I could see no ramping friday.
The impulse has been squashed.

Now we wait till the next impulse.
The next wave will be larger than the last and should last for a longer duration.
We are at an impotant pivot point at the moment with emotion backing off.
News will have the ability to panic in a specific direction.
A break out of the channel that we are in at the moment while the pulse is placid will be meaningful.
A short term reprieve of news ( good or bad ) should keep us within the channel.

Shortly we will see a new pulse pick up within the market ( it needs time to digest the last week ) .
The direction of the next pulse will be very important.
If it is solid selling, then the crash team will have to work a lot harder.
As this time the masses will be acting not so much in panic but more because they want to.
The market could well start a short term trend up for a few days.
A retest towards 7600 and subsequent failure, would be a healthy move.
A break downwards would indicate some panic still left in the market.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:45 - ID#30116)
tolerant1 -- Jack Van Impe is some kind of Bible thumper on T.V. ( At least around here. )

It's funny that you mention golf clubs. I've noticed more driving ranges springing up everywhere along with some exclusive golf clubs in the most out of the way places. Very curious indeed. Didn't Japan go through this phase? As Homer Simpson would say, "Doooooooooooooh!"

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:46 - ID#348169)
"If you don't know who you are, the commodity market is an expensive place to find out." -----George Goodman

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:47 - ID#31868)
Nick: As usual, thank you.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:50 - ID#30116)
Nick -- I saw some late buying of S&P futures after the Dow close yesterday. The buying pushed the premium up a solid 600 points. Could this be a cushion for the Sunday night Globex session? Or perhaps it's the early sign of a buying binge? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:51 - ID#31868)
Panda: The indiviudal that brought this to my attention was George Carlin during a routine that had me on the floor. He, in his inimitable style has forever burned a mark against golf in my soul. The more I listened the more I realized that there was much between the lines of humor.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:53 - ID#30116)
@CBOE site
Optimism is back, but the VIX is very high, still.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:54 - ID#30116)
@CBOE site, I hate it when it does that!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:56 - ID#30116)
Time to do the Saturday things.... BBL

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:58 - ID#335190)
Democratic Party 1997 = MAI @ Democratic Party 1913 = Federal Reserve Act (Fast Track)
November 1, 1997
For release at 10:06 a.m. EST Saturday Nov. 1

AMELIA ISLAND, Fla. ( Reuters ) - Vice President Al Gore made the case Saturday for the president to win fast track trade negotiating power from Congress, saying that to vote against it would be to "turn our backs against the world."

"This week America faces a crucial choice -- and Congress faces a critical vote," Gore said in the radio address, which was taped in Washington. "Will we turn our backs on the world economy in a vain struggle to turn back the clock?"

Clinton and Gore, who are in Florida to rub shoulders with Democratic Party donors who paid $50,000 each to spend the weekend with them at a plush resort, have both argued that the trade authority has increased U.S. economic growth.

While acknowledging that some workers are displaced by free trade, Clinton has argued that they should receive training to help them overcome their difficulties and that overall benefits to the economy justify this cost.

In an effort to push Congress to vote for the power, the White House Friday released letters from three former presidents -- Republicans Gerald Ford and George Bush and Democrat Jimmy Carter -- in support of the trade power.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 09:59 - ID#333131)
Good Morning good people, Was Another's post yesterday bogus, or did he actually get specific about next week being THE week?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:03 - ID#426220)
LBMA EXPOS: PART 9 (November 3, 1997) A Collective-Mind Analysis Compiled by Red Baron
The Onion PARADOX peels yet another layer away from the eventual truth of the LONDON BULLION MARKETING ASSOCIATION...:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:04 - ID#386276)
Did you see those 6 charts I posted earlier?
Did those urls work?
I went back and found that the period from 00:00 till 05:59 has gone.
Up monday? test 7600?
Margins are going to hurt. ouch!!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:08 - ID#287207)
I need the URL for a "portfolio" site that will give me daily data on some Canadian stocks. Thanks

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:12 - ID#31855)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:13 - ID#31868)
Selby: This may help you

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:16 - ID#386276)
No portfolio but you get the charts.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:16 - ID#335190)
Jay Gould @ 1886
He ( Jay Gould ) was willing to spend huge sums with the Pinkertons to shoot strikers but totally unwilling to increase pay and once said scornfully, when threatened with strike, " I can hire half of the working class to kill the other half"

His avarice was celebrated in a bit of popular doggered called "Jay Gould's Modest Wants":
"My wants are few;I scorn to be
A querulous refiner;
I only want America
And a mortgage deed of China;
And if a kind fate threw Europe in,
And Africa and Asia,
And a few islands of the sea,
I'd ask no other treasure.
Give me but these--they are enough
To suit my notion--
And I'll give up to other men
All land beneath the ocean."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:16 - ID#402127)

Selby: Try enter your symbols, then bookmark the site. It will retain your portfolio. It has never malfunctioned.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:20 - ID#402127)

May also try

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:30 - ID#386276)
A present for your weekend.
You're not an e-waver???
[December Gold, C-$312.10, H-$313.60, L-$310.80, -5.1] Gold struggled to $319.40 yesterday before succumbing to the bearish Elliott pattern. The fall from yesterday's high to today's low is five waves, telling us that the near-term downtrend is back on track. This next leg of decline should carry prices toward strong support of $297-$306. We will look for a bottom in this range. Prices might briefly test $316 resistance on Monday before declining, but this is not required. Any move above $319 would be short-term bullish.

Here's the Bottom Line from the November Elliott Wave Theorist sent out this evening. "Welcome to the bear market. Last month, we labeled the stock market's position 'the most dangerous in history.' All we needed was the near-term waves and cycles to turn down, which they now have done. The 554-point slide of October 27 is a foretaste of the new environment. Rallies in the bear market, as we already saw on October 28, will be almost as violent as the declines. Bonds are topping in a second wave and should start a third-wave decline soon. Gold is bearish long term but has begun a near-term rally. Silver has hit its ideal downside target for wave B and is ready for wave C up. The October lows must hold to keep these rallies alive. Wave 5 up in the U.S. dollar should begin by the end of the year."

Now for tonight's Short Term Update.

[Dow Industrials, C-7442, H-7496, L-7353, +60]. It's been a wild week in stocks as Halloween came early to spook this market. To own stocks is frightening indeed, it's just that not many investors realize it yet. They will. The Elliott Wave pattern presents several possibilities for the market's near-term direction. Let's examine them. The fourth wave bounce during the past couple of days ended at Wednesday's print high of 7621, or it was just the first leg of four ( wave 'a' ) which ended at this high. If all of wave four is over, then Monday holds the potential for a significant market decline, possibly carrying prices below this past Monday's 6971 print low. But the way the near-term pattern is configured, we cannot eliminate the possibility that wave four is tracing out a sideways triangle for the next week, or even a zigzag correction that pushes prices higher for several days.

Here's what to watch for in Monday's trading to know which scenario is correct: Dropping beneath 7175 in the Dow will be the trigger that lets us know the market is in a fifth wave lower which should draw prices below 6971, possibly significantly below this level. We might even see a repeat of this past Monday's action. If the Dow does not break 7175 on Monday, expect prices to oscillate up and down between 7621 on the high side and 7175 on the low side for several days, possibly the entire week. That should lead to a steep drop which carries the Dow below 6971. Finally, if the Dow pushes above 7621 on Monday, expect a quick push toward higher near-term resistance of 7750. These are our parameters; once they are breached, we're ready to act decisively as the market makes its next significant move.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:30 - ID#33164)
Lost posts? and 2nd Nov?
Afternoon All
What's happening? Can't see postings, and had to 'refresh' to get this far..

Nick@Aussie: If you're there? That was a really good one on respect grows daily. Please read your mail? I think that you will be able to add to your charting significantly when you have the lot.

Anyone else there? Hello Mooney-I can see why you were welcomed back so warmly. I like your posts a lot.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:33 - ID#426220)
6pak ( Jay Gould @ 1886 ) : I would like to add a few points to your comments about Jay Gould. He single handedly tried to engineeer a complete gold corner in the US in 1869. His effort was twarted by Presidential decision to dump gold on the market. The subsequent market havoc in the gold pits became known as the infamous Black Friday. Testament to his market acumen he came out unscathed, however, many Wall Street brokerage houses were left bankrupt. By far the best treatise of Jay Gould is the book, THE LIFE & LEGEND OF JAY GOULD by Maury Klein.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:41 - ID#386276)
Your email coming in now many thanks.
Did you see the earlier poem on the "Royal George"?
Very safe till everyone goes to the same side.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:45 - ID#287207)
Thanks for the URL's. The one that I had been using for a year just improved itself and lost a third of my listings.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 10:58 - ID#33164)
Cyberlost posts
Hi Nick,
Cannot see anything as yet prior to 10am. Could you please let me have 'Royal George'? Thanks.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:07 - ID#335190)
Jay Gould & John Rockefeller @ 1880s Monopoly & Trust's = Future blueprint
Jay Gould, more than any other figure of his time, was the symbol of monopoly to the American people. He did not sleep well of nights, often walking the streets until dawn, coughing, hacking, and spitting blood.
By the late eighties ( 1880s ) he had owned and pillaged the Union Pacific, the Wabash, the Missouri-Kansas-Texas, the Texas-Pacific, the Western Union Telegraph Company, the New York World, several steamship companies, and a number of shorter Eastern railroads.

Similarly the future was being foreshadowed by sanctimonious John D. Rockefeller, the slim little decon from Cleveland who knew what he wanted with an intensity that was almost fierce. Secretive and soft-footed, he liked to whisper if it were possible, and he was mindless itself unless money was involved and then he was as savage as a tiger. He had "an instinct for conspiracy"; the fact that it was against the law bothered him not a whit. ( 1882 )

The trust he originated both as a legal form and as a method of tying together all the far-flung processes of an industry, controlling the products from their extraction from the earth as raw materials to their sale to the public, was to serve as the method and the model for all American industry.

The trust's aim was the narrowing and centralization of ownership while creating a vast monopply which increased profits by fixing prices high while holding wages low.

Rockefeller's trust was a blueprint of the future. Upon this foundation American monopoly built, constantly pyramiding in strength and narrowing in control, until it was at last to seek the whole world as its province.

Rockefeller never doubted himself for an instant, for he said God had put him on earth to make money. Those who got in his way were obstructing God's will.

He was the great combiner of American industry, transforming " the pigmy property of the many into the Titan property of the few, transforming the individual and scattered means of production into socially concentrated forms."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:15 - ID#335190)
Vronsky @ 10:30
Thanks Vronsky, I did not have the information that you were considerate enough to put forward. Thanks again, take care.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:18 - ID#411149)
Why can't I get November 1st on choice of date and time? I cannot read the messages from midnite to the present? The date doesnot include the number 1 for November 1?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:28 - ID#335190)
Gould & Rockefeller 1880s @ MAI (Fast Track) 1997. World Monopoly to be sure
November 1, 1997
For release at 10:06 a.m. EST Saturday Nov. 1

AMELIA ISLAND, Fla. ( Reuters ) - Vice President Al Gore made the case Saturday for the president to win fast track trade negotiating power from Congress, saying that to vote against it would be to "turn our backs against the world."

"This week America faces a crucial choice -- and Congress faces a critical vote," Gore said in the radio address, which was taped in Washington. "Will we turn our backs on the world economy in a vain struggle to turn back the clock?"

In the address, Gore described opposition to the power as: "a vote against American leadership in the world and a vote for pessimism and retreat."

In an effort to push Congress to vote for the power, the White House Friday released letters from three former presidents --Republicans Gerald Ford and George Bush and Democrat Jimmy Carter -- in support of the trade power.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:38 - ID#334321)
Will soon start eating the brownies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:48 - ID#386276)
Possible falls to be expected if we are to go back to these long term trend lines.
I have put two expected price bands, between which I would expect the price could settle.
If these companies fell to these levels, the dow would be expected to be down the average fall %.
Most times a share price will go lower than its long term trendlines.
Overbought to oversold.
The lower target has a good probability of being bounced off if we were to have a crash.
The upper target has a high probabilty of being pierced in a bear market.
Being that we are now in the beginnings of a bear market,
we could expect that the dow will fall a further 18% to 39%.
That would put the total correction range at 29% to 46%.
Because we are at the end of a 15 year old bull run,
and we have turned the art of investing to a mania.
I would expect that we will bounce off the bottom line.
If we were to break below these levels
then we will not call this a crash
We would call it a collapse.

Co. code ----Upper price-target---- Lower price-target ---- Top -High----Current price---- Fall to date----Current price to upper price-target Current price to lower price-target----High to upper price-target----High to lower price- target
GE $35 $25 $76 $63 17% 44% 60% 54% 67%
KO $50 $30 $73 $56 23% 11% 46% 32% 59%
MRK $75 $50 $108 $88 19% 15% 43% 31% 54%
XON $45 $35 $67 $61 9% 26% 43% 33% 48%
MO $35 $25 $48 $39 19% 10% 36% 27% 48%
IBM $80 $55 $109 $96 12% 17% 43% 27% 50%
Average fall %'s 18% 39% 29% 46%

The Loss of the 'Royal George'

TOLL for the brave,
The brave that are no more !
All sunk beneath the wave
Close by their native shore !

Eight hundred of the brave,
Whose courage was well tried,
Had made the vessel heel,
And laid her on her side.

A land breeze shook the shrouds,
And she was overset ;
Down went the Royal George,
With all her crew complete !

Toll for the brave !
Brave Kempenfelt is gone ;
His last sea-fight is fought,
His work of glory done.

It was not in the battle ;
No tempest gave the shock ;
She sprang no fatal leak ;
She ran upon no rock.

His sword was in its sheath,
His fingers held his pen,
When Kempenfelt went down
With twice four hundred men.

Weigh the vessel up,
Once dreaded by our foes !
And mingle with our cup
The tears that England owes.

Her timbers are yet sound,
And she may float again,
Full charged with England's thunder,
And plough the distant main.

Brave Kempenfelt is gone,
His victories are o'er ;
And he and his eight hundred
Shall plow the wave no more

William Cowper
-Queen's salute
-Spithead Review
-Naval tradition

--------The tragic sinking of the "Royal George"
This occurred while the vessel was at anchor.
At the 'Spithead Review'
The eight hundred sailors were ordered to the side of the ship'
To salute the Queen as she sailed past.-----------


"Troops always break step before crossing bridges"

----------An ancient rule within the army tradition.-----------

Dates back prior to Caesar.
Cyrus was invading Greece in 490c BC.
He had a pontoon bridge built to cross the Hellespont.
The first bridge failed as the troops were marching over it.
The bridge failed because of the synchronized undulations.
Generated by the rhythm of the thousands of men marching in step,
The bridge in spite of being built strong enough to carry horses, charriots and elephants.
Shook, crumbled, and broke up under the power generated by the many feet in 'lock-step'.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 11:53 - ID#215208)
Lost November 1
For those of you that have noticed, the government of Canada decided to drop the 1st of every month from the Canadian calendar. This was done as a cost saving measure, as current legislation requires all social benefit checks to be sent on the 1st of every month. Now they don't have to send them out. Bart has been forced to comply with this directive by removing the 1st of the month from his drop-down list.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:00 - ID#411149)
DJ- I knew there must be some verry good reason for no #1.

Spud Master
(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:05 - ID#273112)
The catchy logo for world electronic funds is...
Tolerant1 - in my spare brain CPU time, I try and figure out just what form the putative "Mark of the Beast" would be ... it's frightening from an informational-computational perspective to realize that it's obviously some form of a Universal Credit mark. Total control can only be effected by utter abolishment of *any* kind of commodity-based money. You and I must *never* be able to buy any food, pay rent, purchase gasoline etc. except that we use an electronic smart card, Universal Credit etc. That is ***really*** the ultimate goal of all the world's Central Banks. As long as gold, silver, oil, platinum, copper can be used for "money", they can never control us. I fully expect the "Mark of the Beast" to be some ultra-appealing, yuppie-catchy thing. A status symbol. ( shudder )

DAK's evil Twin
(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:10 - ID#27150)
Chipiie Dipiiiie head
Chow Down! Save some for the Ostertag and Carl. They need some after last nights whooooopin!!!!! And my buddy ShaQ ( dak's black cousin-ShaQ Dak ) didn't even get off the bench. BRING ON PATRICK and that BUM Starks!! It'll be about tearing a new as.h.le!!

Bob M
(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:23 - ID#26059)
It would seem to me, in view of the action in the gold market the last several years, that this concerted effort to drive and keep the price of gold down will go down in history as the biggest market manipulation that has occurred to appears to me that this is a desperation move on the part of the central bankers to keep the ship afloat..they are walking a fine line between prosperity and civil revolt. If their efforts fail, the possibility of another world war between trading blocks, could come to the forefront of world events. I would suspect that some of the theorys tossed around in here, such as Anothers gold for oil has a degree of truth, and the reality of keeping the equity markets moving up, because if either oil moves up dramatically or the equity market drops dramatically, the general populus is going to become very angry. And whom will that anger be directed at? Could be the politicians, could be our trading partners, could even be the oil magnates..whichever, the outcome will probably not be pleasant. I get the feeling that the game is already beyond the point of no return..they cannot turn back now..they must stay the course and continue to drive gold down and the market up...anything different will be disastorous to everyone..there will be no proverbial soft landing this time...whomever comes up on the short end of the stick is going to be very angry..and that will lead to aggression...

Spud Master
(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:23 - ID#273112)
As for so-called New World Orders....
Texas is filled to the brim with guns and God knows what else. In East Texas vernacular: "we ain't stupid". The US Constitution is the LAW, not some bleed'n United Nations of over-paid, effete, knows-whats-good-for-us, never worked a day in their life bureacrats.
I pity you poor Australians loosing your guns & for all practical purposes your freedom. It's a mean world out there, and people are nice to each other mostly because of ethics/morals/values - software-like things that are being denigrated round-the-clock by the coopted press of the world. Failing ethics, the threat of force makes the rest of humanity behave. When we are all disarmed, and have no resort to buy anything save for an electronic debit card we'll be in the smiley-faced Hell of the Liberals/United Nations.

Here in the United States, the effort to "balkanize" us has been underway for many years, but has intensified in the last four years through the agency of multiculturalism ( or stealth racism as I call it ) and political correctness ( intellectual or idea racism ) . Instead of us all being AMERICANS, we are "convinced" that we are some oppressed segment and deserved of resources.The end goal of multiculturalism is not to teach respect & tolerance for other cultures, but to drive an ideological wedge into our brains such that we will never be able to work together as a cohesive nation. This is, of course, Caesar's old "divide and conquer" strategy. After all, you, as a Hispanic, can "never" understand me as an Asian. This all leads to apathy, distrust and devisiveness. After massive, nation wide riots and unrest break out, the president suspends the Constitution, invokes Martial Law and invites in UN troops.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:36 - ID#251213)
If pork bellies had the gloom and negativity that gold does, we'd all know what to do; especially in light of Glenn's comment that the comex floor traders laugh at anyone who even scalps on the long side of gold.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:54 - ID#33164)
Jhbg Newspapers
Jhbg Saturday Star- Personal Finance: dated 1 Nov.97- Headlines:

"Sit tight for the big dipper ride- Financial experts urge unit trust investors to take a long term view"

To quote a few extracts from the above:-

-"Stay invested in your unit trusts, dont panic and if you have spare cash, buy now" [a number of independent financial advisors canvassed by Personal Finance]

-"They [the independent F/A's ] say the fundamentals in the RSA economy are strong, and many echo Reserve Bank Governor Chris Stals's views that this 'adjustment was necessary to get stability back into the financial markets"

-" You should expect this kind of thing to happen from time to time. Although the equity markets have gone through a dip, they're still the best place to invest in the long term"

A few weeks ago, I asked a couple of our top financial advisors what they were going to do with their clients' investments, in view of the danger of the SE Asian situation at the time, and the response was " The West would NEVER be affected- it won't affect us at all"

All the little old ladies who look to these financial 'guardians' as the ultimate experts are reading this newspaper today.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:58 - ID#334321)
@ DAK and now Dak's Evil Twin
Hi DAK + Evil Twin! Just ate the brownies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Stay tuned~~~~~~

(Sat Nov 01 1997 12:58 - ID#33164)
Nick, thank you so much for 'Royal George' . Makes one think?!

All pages of Crook's update now scanned through Acrobat. Just waiting to hear if the first two came through alright [ and which one was the best?]

John Sparks.....huh...Starks
(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:01 - ID#244159)
@ Shaq-FOO
YOU will eat those words mon ami.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:02 - ID#272124)
Good as Gold
Chippie, that darn KAD, always showing up over my shoulder, like a monkey on my back or a Jones in my head. Them brownies sure smell good as gold.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:07 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:13 - ID#257148)
Gold fiends, Humans and Kitcomen, Lend me your ores...
ALL is there a trick to seeing posts before current time interval, or are historic golden words thereal dogmeat?
Thanks in anticipation

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:16 - ID#391195)
No NOV. 1....
BART.....NOV. 1 got left off your viewing options, at least on mine.....I can't quite read Nov. 2.....Hey this may be something new. Are you going to let me read next weeks postings????? Today that is.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:23 - ID#224151)
I'm missing Nov 1 Too. Bear has arrived on Wall street.Bear Continues in Gold.Looks like 72 on the XAU.New features and formats at
Oh Boy!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:29 - ID#364147)
@ Aurator
G'day mate-----you have mail and I'm outta here............hopefully ta return.....

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:29 - ID#335190)
Corporate USofA @ Opportunity before and after WW I
The war was over on Nov. 11 1918. Out of the holocaust came two great earth-shaking historical changes. First was the revolt of hundreds of millions of people against the misery, starvation, and death brought about by the war and the stirrings of hundreds of millions of others against colonial subjugation. In November, 1917, the Russian people eliminated the profit system and established socialism on one-sixth of the earth's surface. Inspired by this great revolutionary upheaval, the people of China under Sun Yat-sen moved forward to liberate their country. Similarly, the people of India under Mahatma Gandhi began a long and bitter struggle for liberation from British colonial rule.

J.P. Morgan & Company together with three of its allies on Wall Street extended their imperial domain in America beyond the "341 directorships in 112 corporations having aggregated resources or capitalization of $22,245,000,000" their holdings according to an official Congressional report submitted one year before the outbreak of the war.

Meanwhile American big business, taking advantage of the preoccupation of its European rivals, transformed the Caribbean Sea region into an American lake and extended its sway over more of Latin American. Battleships, marines, and soldiers--all at the public expense--were sent to Haiti ( 1914-15 ) , the Dominican Republic ( 1916 ) ; Cuba ( 1916-17 ) , and Mexico ( 1914 and 1916 ) .

By the end of World War I the United States owned outright in the Caribbean Sea region Puerto Rico, the Canal Zone, and the Virgin Islands and held as protectorates Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Panama.

The war marked the end of an era for the United States. Until America entry into the war there were many who still thought it possible somehow to return the country to a non-monopolistic middle way, some modern version of Jeffersonianism in which none was either very rich or very poor.

However, with the war's end, there was small chance for a return to the simplicities of Jeffersonianism. For better or worst, American monopoly was in the saddle, stronger than ever before, its foreign rivals badly shaken and coming increasingly under its control through financial need. As never before, the whole world beckoned to it as a prize to be won. It was a dazzling prospect.

World War I **1914 1918** ( July 28 1914 Austria sent a declaration of war to Serbia ) USofA World War I---- New Year 1918, America were sending their army overseas as fast as it could be raised----

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:34 - ID#33164)
Also Lost
What on earth is going on ? I disappeared for a short while, came back to a time change and couldn't find a thing. "Refreshing' the page eventually enabled me to see the few current messages.

Hello, Aurator dear. Never expected to see you at this hour. {:-}}

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:44 - ID#257148)
colleen, good morning, it is 7:45 local, sunday am and overcast, was looking forward to reviewing past 24 odd hours before family committments but can't see a fing..

Yes, REFRESH rather than "submit" once you're here, but does anyone know how look back to today's earlier posts?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:50 - ID#410114)

Hello Larry the fisherman

I am thinking about taking a job with one of the commercial fishing
boats out of the NW.

Do you any suggestions on which companies and pay levels for officers?
Is now a good time to take one of these jobs with the El Nino?

Robert Fisher

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:55 - ID#225359)
scandals and the tip

Can't wait for the real news on gold to someday break. The above link is just the beginning.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:56 - ID#364147)
@ Aurator
No treats....they IS dog meat!!!....Strange day here in ole Cape Breton~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:57 - ID#225359)
The real link

(Sat Nov 01 1997 13:57 - ID#33164)
Short Text and refresh?
Try going into short text, then pressing "Refresh' [submit gives you nothing ].
Got down to 7:am odd, and it was still loading.

Aurator: Always nice to see you. Here it's Saturday evening 8:51pm -a hot and too dry day today. Guy Fawkes has started, and will go on for weeks- wish they wouldn't do it in a residential area, as the animals start shivering with fear at the very loud bangs.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:01 - ID#335190)
What Me Worry @ USofA Shareholders SURVEY SAYS !!
November 1, 1997
Most Americans unfazed by Wall Street tumult -poll

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - A majority of Americans still have confidence in the economy despite a volatile week on Wall Street, a Time/CNN poll released Saturday said.

The poll found 77 percent of those surveyed did not change their opinion about the U.S. economy after the wild fluctuations of the market during the past week.

Only 28 percent said the market's decline made them more worried about the country's economic future, compared to 46 percent who said so after the October 1987 market fall. One of Wall Street's busiest and most volatile weeks saw a record 554-point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average Monday, followed by a 337-point surge up Tuesday as volume on the New York Stock Exchange topped one billion shares for the first time.

The poll, conducted by Yankelovich Partners Thursday, had a margin of error of 3.4 percent.

Mr. Mick
(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:01 - ID#339273)
Thanks for explaining the synchronized stepping of the markets as the
unusual phenomenon that it is. My partner and I noticed it last summer
( August ) and sensed that something was "rotten in Denmark".
Just shows the degree of manipulation going on.

I see
(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:10 - ID#42575)
said the blind man
Over on SI's gold discussion thread, George S. Cole ( Kitco's
resident lunatic ) has stated that is doesn't look good for
gold, but that the final washout, whether to 300, 280, or 250,
will signal the start of the long awaited gold bull. Last
night on Kitco, George S. Cole ( our resident lunatic ) stated
that gold had a 70% chance of going to 340 by the end of
next week. So, I would definitely agree with George on
this point, that by the end of next week, gold will almost
certainly be somewhere within a range of 250-340.

Stephen Mooney, Kitco's resident pedant, has once again
decided that only his nonsense is worthy of posting.
He and I are finally on the same side of one issue,
that of requiring registration at this site. And of
course we both agree that Flag did not go
to 65 cents by the time 2% of the outstanding shares
were traded from when he first made this statement.

My problem with allowing that Peuty ( or GSC with his
gold bull call or Mooney with his Flag to the moon
call ) may eventually be right is that it sets no
timetable for when this occurs. My Dow 8300
call may eventually be right, yet you have no trouble
saying "stupid call". So why do you see it as so
unusual that others say "stupid call" to the above
mentioned absolutes?

What we all need on this site is a little understanding
of the other side. The reason there is so much nonsense
posted here is because both sides are so polarized they
say "I will be right and you will be wrong and I will
do anything to show that I will be right and you will
be wrong." But we need to agree on a few conditions.
When a certain day comes without a prediction coming
true, then it is wrong. Rather it is an early or brave
or honest or bold prediction is beside the point, it
must be agreed that if it does not fulfill the conditions
originally stated, it is wrong. I apologized for making
incorrect predictions on gold and the Dow for 10/23/97.
I have yet to see Peuty or GSC or Mooney admit to making
incorrect predictions. They just waffle and say, "Well,
I was merely predicting the start of the trend, you can see it
is now underway." Last week, I got in what I thought was
a particularly stupid argument with someone defending GSC's
early call on the gold bull, who said, "Well, if gold goes
back above the point where he made the call, then he will
be correct." Excuse me if I was a bit incredulous.

If George S. Cole said the gold bull had begun when
gold jumped from $325 up to $330, and then over the
next six months gold goes to $300, $280, $250 and
then, one or two years later, climbs back above $330,
he was correct in calling the start of the gold bull?
Well, hell, then everyone can be correct on this site
making whatever calls they want. Lollipops for everyone.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:25 - ID#37295)

Don't mean to preach, but I'm glad to see that some who post to this site are aware of Proverbs 15:1.

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grevious words stir up anger."

If we can all practice the first part of this proverb ( I know it's hard sometimes ) , this site will continue to be the great site it is. Practicing the second part of this proverb will only end up wasting bandwith, and I we have seen the results of that action.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:27 - ID#215208)
Is it really true?
Ted - Maybe you can confirm this rumor. I heard that the Canadian government passed a law to drop the 1st of every month off the Canadian calendar. Supposedly this is a cost saving measure, as according to law, all social services checks must go out on the 1st of every month. Now they don't have to send them. I heard that someone ratted on Bart, and leaked the information that he still was showing the 1st of the month on Kitco. Supposedly a swat team in body armor broke down his door, and arrested him. A team of government programmers were then put to work with the objective of fixing the problem. After several weeks of work they managed to remove the 1st of the month from Bart's drop down list, but typical of a goverment operation, they managed to screw up everything else. This is why we are having so many problems with Kitco lately. An anonymous source said that the whole operation cost the government over $2B Canadian, which Bart was forced to pay in gold bullion. This was then sold secretly to raise the cash, thus causing the price of gold to crash down to $308. Did you really think it was because of the Swiss announcement?

Can you confirm any of this.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:39 - ID#335190)
16 Banks, forced to close @ Indonesia & IMF
November 1, 1997
FOCUS-Indonesia quickens reform, closes banks

JAKARTA ( Reuters ) - Indonesia's economic reform program agreed with the IMF got off to a running start Saturday, with the government closing 16 banks it said were harming society. Finance Minister Mar'ie Muhammad said the government would soon reimburse depositors in the unlisted banks for up to 20 million rupiah ( $5,555 ) per account, which he said covered 93.7 percent of depositors. Reform of the financial and banking sector was one of the key areas in the package announced Friday by the government
and the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) .

Rising prices and unemployment, especially in urban areas on Java, home to 60 percent of the country's 200 million people, could prove a potent brew. In his statement, Mar'ie appealed "to all members of society to remain calm" during reform of the banking system.

"There are too many uncertainties in the world. We need a first line of defense and a second line of defense," he said. Indonesia said it expected a fall in economic performance over the coming two years, but hoped to return to seven percent annual growth by the 1999/2000 fiscal year and beyond.

"His reputation was on the line. He wants to go down as the president who pushed Indonesia out of poverty. It will be sad if that legacy is wiped out," she said. The package agreed with the IMF includes reform of the financial and banking sector, trade deregulation and a cut back in
monopolies in the agricultural sector, export incentives, a reduction in import tariffs on a range of goods, and greater transparency and accountability.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:41 - ID#429212)
Fear and loathing
It seems that even long-time bulls on this site have developed a large modicum of fear and loathing toward gold. This sentiment, combined with
the fact that a gold non-lover such as Peter Lynch can see gold as a
straight value play encourages me to think that the bottom is essentially

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:49 - ID#411149)
Iffin yo'll ain't figured it out TODAY AIN'T, BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY TOMORROW!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 14:49 - ID#335190)
German & Swiss Gold @ Federal Reserve Bank USofA 1951
October 31, 1997
US bank took Nazi gold as collateral for Spain loan

LOS ANGELES ( Reuters ) - A leading U.S. bank knowingly accepted about $30 million worth of looted Nazi gold as collateral for a loan to Spain after the gold had been laundered in Switzerland, documents made public Saturday said. The 1951 deal between National City Bank, which later became Citibank ( CCI.N ) , and the Spanish had the approval of the
U.S. Treasury Department which gave the gold, now worth $300 million, to the Federal Reserve Bank.

The Federal Reserve melted the German bars bearing the Nazi Swastika, and reissued them as U.S. Assay Office bars. Under rules of the time, neither a U.S. bank nor an individual could own gold bars and the gold had to be held by the Federal Reserve Bank after the U.S. Treasury gave its permission for it to be used as collateral.

According to the documents, the U.S. bank approached the U.S. Treasury to secure a license for the transaction. One internal Federal Reserve memo said, "Some of the gold in the shipment was identified as having been part of the gold looted by the German authorities during the last war and melted and reissued as 1937 Prussian mint bars." The memo said, in part, that of "761 bars listed, 503 appear to be clean, 187 were looted from the Netherlands and subsequently placed in the German deposit account in the Swiss National Bank."

The Americans resmelted more than half of the looted bars after checking with the Tripartite Gold Commission, set up by Britain, France and the United States to return looted gold to the countries from which they were taken.

The three countries had reached an agreement with Switzerland in 1946 to return $58 million worth of looted gold although the Swiss never admitted receiving such gold from the Germans. The actual total of looted gold was estimated at between $200 million and $350 million at 1946 prices. The value at today's prices would be between $2 bilion to $3.5 billion.

The Germans looted gold from the national treasuries of the European nations they conquered and from individuals and businesses. A Federal Reserve Bank memo from March 23, 1950 said that the Treasury Department had informed it that the gold was tainted only in the hands of the first purchaser -- that is Switzerland,in most cases. WJC Vice President Kalman Sultanik said, "There was a logic to that policy which was understandable. The failure was in not pressing the Swiss to make compensation for all the looted gold it received from Germany. .. But while material liability resides in Switzerland, the moral accountabilty extends to reside in all of us."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:04 - ID#257148)
you is the enemy
TED Are the CB'ers losing their marbles on Halloween?

colleen thanks for the tip. I know what your mean about Guy Fawkes, but it will probably be lost on our American friends who are celebrating Halloween.

Spud Master I will pick up your comments on guns and freedom although directed at the aussies, who will be able to answer for themselves... Really..
It amazes me that your fine constitution mixed up freedoms and dangers on the right to bear arms. I am aware too that I have just pressed a whole bunch of righteously indignant american pride buttons and shall probably be flamed for it. However, this absurd "right" is imfho the reason much of the rest of the world thinks that americans are gun-toting half-witted unruly rednecks, and therefore the evil empire. Not my fho, you understand but ROW's fho.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:13 - ID#263259)
Spudmaster's Conjecture
Spudmaster re 12:23 post: You give me pause to think today. I wonder why such an underpopulated country as Australia would seek to disarm its citizens. Among all the overpopulated countries in southeast Asia it remains an anomaly, both in its ethnic makeup and in its citizen's previous degree of freedom. I would suppose that will continue to change as it continues to allow foreign colonisation efforts. The educated Australians I've met on the Net are nearly all apologists of multiculturalism and disarmament. I would suppose that in the end they'll pay the same price for their mistakes as did the Manhatten tribe of North American Indians.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:15 - ID#26793)
Goldman: Where is the gold bottom? I don't know. I have never been in an earthquake either so earth seems solid to me. Friends who have been in them say it changes your outlook. Maybe my analogy is weak but these currency devaluations rolling around the world seem like a financial earthquake to me. Today I am picking up vibes that the Japanese may devalue the yen. Where does it stop? The British are already saying the pound is overvalued. Overvalued against what? Our financial system has no bottom, there is no safe place in paper. Nothing can be measured. Nothing seems real. The numbers on the banknotes or in the passbook mean nothing. There was a post the other day about another devaluation by those who have already devalued. At some point the whole thing becomes unravelled and only "things" will count. Does the "price" of gold matter on the day that happens? The world has been "devaluing" since the 1920's when nations started going off the gold exchange system. Mostly the devaluations have been slow and stretched over years and hard to see. Now I sense that they are coming closer and closer together, each country is trying to obtain an advantage over its trading partners. How much longer can producers operate in this environment? You can't produce "things" if your whole day is consumed in watching CNBC in order to protect your business or your savings. Farmers trade commodities rather than plant. Miners speculate in metals rather than dig. IBM does currency swaps rather than manufacture. Someday "soon" I see it ending in a very real financial earthquake and you will be glad you have some gold and silver and you won't care what you "paid" for it.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:26 - ID#26793)
Ray: Why do we need today? Tomorrow it will be yesterday so why bother with it today?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:26 - ID#31868)
ALRIGHT, now hold on a minute, who insulted the great Australian people, where did this gun thing start, and who posted what? I can't find a post I guess, but the posting's are tough to get ahold of today.

Could someone explain how this mess got started?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:27 - ID#335190)
Spain defeated @ 113 day war with USofA 1898 (1951 gold belongs to Corporate USofA)
Senator Beveridge of Indiana, Senator Lodge of Massachusetts, Under Secretary of the Navy Theodore Roosevelt and a good many others also felt that God wished us to seize the Philippines as well as Cuba and Puerto Rico. All three were owned by Spain and when the battleship Maine mysteriously exploded in the harbor at Havana, war was declared against that country on April 25 1898.

Two days after war was declared Senator Beveridge hailed it with a paean of joy, declaring it the beginning of world domination for the United States. "American factories," he said, "are making more than the American people can use; American soil is producing more than they can consume." ( He did not mention the great depression of 1893-97 ) "Fate has written our policy for us; the trade of the world must and shall be ours.

And we will get it as our mother [England] told us how....We will cover the ocean with our merchant marine. We will build a navy to the measure of our greatness...."

The war with Spain, "a splendid little war," according to Secretary of State John Hay, was over in 113 days, when all that was left of the Spanish Empire was handed over to American monopoly.

Mark Twain excoriated the American slaughter during the "slendid little war" of unarmed natives, the massacres of defenseless men, women, and children, which were palmed off as gallant victories. "The Blessings-of-Civilization Trust, wisely and cautiously administered, ia a Daisy." Mark Twain observed. "There is more money in it, more territory, more sovereignty and other emolument than there is in any other game that is played."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:34 - ID#31868)
I am laughing at this whole affair concerning gold, the Swiss and the Nazis. Americans have to be the dumbest people under the Sun.

FDR robbed your gold but you don't jump up and down in anger. Then it ends up with the reserve criminals and the oh so spooky central bank criminals.

But lo and behold, the big bad Swiss, and the US government in cahoots with the Nazis, well, them thar is fightin words.

America, grow up and smell the coffee.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:34 - ID#251213)
I See

Here's a word in defense of Mr. Cole.

In addition to watching this group, I also follow a fellow named Don Wollanchuck. Mr. Wollanchuck has been and is according to Timer Digest, the top market timer for the last 8 yrs in stocks. Mr. Wollanchuck also speculates in the gold market his record there has not been sucessful...yet.

Mr. Wollanchuck after 1987 crash using elliot wave said that the Dow would be penetrating 10,000 in the future. People including me laughed.

That prediction no longer seems so preposterous anymore.

On Gold, Mr. Wollanchuck's thinks that gold is going to take out the old highs $875/oz and go into the thousands. Of course, recently he as a trader gets in and has been getting stoped out. Wollanchuck's entries and exits are pretty much matched by Mr. Cole's comments on this site.

Wolanchuck bought the xau options on the day after the $16 drop in the gold price and went long both of fidelities gold funds. He has also has been buying aggressivly the canadian penny golds. In addition to this, he just went long the silver and gold futures. As Don Wollanchuck is a name that all of us recognise, I think that the fact that kitcoites get GSC's comments for about $6000/yr less than Wollanchuck's a blessing.

The significant differences between Cole and Wollanchuck is that Wollanchuck is currently a super bull on the Dow and alot more specific on gold trading i.e. when to getin/out.


(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:34 - ID#257148)
repost before riposte
Tolerant1 here 'tis, in all its logic and perspicacity, electronic money because you don't bear arms...

Date: Sat Nov 01 1997 12:23
Spud Master ( As for so-called New World Orders.... )
Texas is filled to the brim with guns and God
knows what else. In East Texas vernacular: "we
ain't stupid". The US Constitution is the LAW,
not some bleed'n United Nations of over-paid,
effete, knows-whats-good-for-us, never worked
a day in their life bureacrats.
I pity you poor Australians loosing your guns &
for all practical purposes your freedom. It's a
mean world out there, and people are nice to
each other mostly because of ethics/morals/values
- software-like things that are being denigrated
round-the-clock by the coopted press of the
world. Failing ethics, the threat of force makes
the rest of humanity behave. When we are all
disarmed, and have no resort to buy anything
save for an electronic debit card we'll be in the
smiley-faced Hell of the Liberals/United Nations.

Here in the United States, the effort to
"balkanize" us has been underway for many
years, but has intensified in the last four years
through the agency of multiculturalism ( or
stealth racism as I call it ) and political
correctness ( intellectual or idea racism ) .
Instead of us all being AMERICANS, we are
"convinced" that we are some oppressed segment
and deserved of resources.The end goal of
multiculturalism is not to teach respect &
tolerance for other cultures, but to drive an
ideological wedge into our brains such that we
will never be able to work together as a cohesive
nation. This is, of course, Caesar's old "divide
and conquer" strategy. After all, you, as a
Hispanic, can "never" understand me as an Asian.
This all leads to apathy, distrust and devisiveness.
After massive, nation wide riots and unrest break
out, the president suspends the Constitution,
invokes Martial Law and invites in UN troops.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:39 - ID#31868)
Aurator: Thank you. Now I shall read.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:45 - ID#372100)


(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:47 - ID#215235)
How does selling gold keep the price of oil down ?
Will one of the illuminati please explain ANOTHER's comment that the G7 / CB's are keeping the price of oil down by selling gold.

server problem
(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:48 - ID#288100)
every day brings a new adventure

Getting used to finding a back door into this site. Anyone else have a problem logging on today?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:51 - ID#31868)
Spud Master: I read your post and I am trying to figure out what in the world put a thorn under your saddle. You covered alot of territory there. Could you post for me what it was that set you off.

I only have your response. Thanks.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:52 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:56 - ID#263259)
re BobM's 12:23 post
BobM: I think you're quite right in your predictions of social unrest. ( I find an odd comfort in the fact that you, a jewelry professional who dabbles in psychology would come up the same conclusions that I, a social scientist who dabbles in jewelry would make. ) IMNSHO opinion, the US has now successfully raised its second generation of persons who have no concept of where the necessities of life come from and have no skills in creating them. So it is natural to presume that if the distribution system breaks down...strike that...hiccups more than a couple of won't have to break down... there will be looting, burning and pillage, particularly if for some reason the government fails to continue to supply daily necessities for the welfare classes. It's really telling if we go through the list of recent civil unrests...Watts, LA, et cetera and see how ritualized and sedate they were compared to those of the 19'th century where people were really hungry. I would suspect that when big unrest occurs it will probably occur as some sissified social protest, but then turn really ugly when for some reason the supply lines are cut. I would suspect that the only limiting factor in the end will be unavailability of fuel for fires.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:56 - ID#335190)
Corporate USofA @ Trouble in River City
November 1, 1997
Shareholders sue Boeing over production problems

SEATTLE ( Reuters ) - Boeing Co.'s problems speeding up production have sparked a shareholder lawsuit in federal court, a local newspaper reported Saturday.
The lawsuit filed Friday in U.S. District Court in Seattle contends that Boeing officials knew of the production problems as early as April but hid them from investors to maintain the company's stock price, according to the report in The Seattle Times.

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of two shareholders by attorney Steve Berman, who is seeking class-action status, the report said. Berman could not be reached for comment. A Boeing spokesman said the company had not seen the suit and could not comment.

The lawsuit contends that Boeing misled shareholders about the extent of production difficulties in part to maintain its stock price before the $16.3 billion all-stock purchase of former rival McDonnell Douglas Corp. that closed in August. The stock price had risen sharply in part because of Boeing's ambitious plans to more than double production to meet
demand. "It was vital that Boeing keep its share price high in order to preserve the premium paid to McDonnell Douglas shareholders, or they would be unlikely to approve the transaction," the suit says, according to the newspaper.

On Oct. 22 Boeing said it would take $2.6 billion in pre-tax charges through the end of 1998 to pay for the costs of the production problems, which forced it to shut down two major assembly lines for several weeks. As a result Boeing reported a loss of $696 million for the third quarter.

The suit seeks unspecified damages for anyone who purchased Boeing stock between July 21 and Oct. 22. Boeing stock closed at $47.875 Friday, down from as high as $55.25 July 21.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 15:58 - ID#429212)
I agree. In my earlier comment, I meant to point up the contrast between
long-time gold lovers despising gold and value players who find it

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:03 - ID#243180)
6pak basher of non-gold issues
6pak: Could U please make some relevance of your pedantic historical references toward the issue of GOLD.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:09 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:21 - ID#26793)

Spud Master
(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:22 - ID#273112)
@nail on the head
223: your quote "[U]S has now successfully raised its second generation of persons who have no concept of where the necessities of life come from and have no skills in creating them" hit the nail on the head. America is ripe for dissolution & conquest via social unrest leading to chaos. History will record that character DID matter, that there is NO SUCH thing as moral equivalence, that Hollywood/Television/Press were instrumental in disseminating the informational viruses that subsequently infected & disarmed the American citizen's mental immune system - the media message spumed out through sit-coms, films et cetera was the ideological equal of the Aids virus, destroying the citizen's ability to think skeptically, clearly & reject manipulation. Now, these legions of young people in our suburbs and inner cities will be the recruiting ground for modern day police state. Will they hesitate to take personal property? Will they hesitate to unjuectly arrest and imprison? will they hesitate to execute on orders? What moral principle will rear up in their minds and halt them, pray tell? None. Hitler got his legions of SS from demoralized post-Wiemar German youth. Don't think it can't happen in America. THINK SKEPTICALLY. QUESTION ALL POLITCAL AUTHORITY. REJECT THE ADVENT OF ELECTRONIC FUNDS. Buying and using gold and silver for commerce defeats those who would enlsave us with worthless paper.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:25 - ID#335190)
WetGold @ 16:03
WetGold: Do not understand, of which historical references, are you referring ??? I suggest, all posts made this day, are attached to the view, that all such historical notes, are gold related.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:27 - ID#31868)
Spud Master: I am not going to enter into a great deal of discussion on your post, due to my not having the post to which you have responded.

However, if you think President Clinton is dumb enough to invoke marshall law due to unrest and riots and call in ANY foreign troops, and he may be that dumb, this country will break into various groupings of state factions and the northern hemisphere will glow at night for many years to come.

Of that you can be assured.

Spud Master
(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:28 - ID#273112)
simple observation, deduction & human history...
Credulous1: Think man. Look around you. Remember history. We forget were we came from. We've had the life of luxury & ease too long. We've forgotten the price of freedom, and we've forgoten that humans are animals with animal instincts. With culture, education, we become people. Without it, we're just two legged animals, only without the saving innocence of an animal: we enslave & kill for pleasure. What folly to think humans are intrinically "good". Individually, by choice, perhaps, but not en masse. As for Australia banning guns - there are 275 million Indonesians slightly to the north who are led by the peace-loving, democratic persons like Suharto and the Riadys. Just ask a few thousand dead East Timoreans. The day will come when Australia is fighting for it's life. ( BTW, the Indonesian people are as decent as any other, just there leaders are as corrupt & venal as any others ) .

Spud Master
(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:32 - ID#273112)
Tolerant1: A fragmented, balkanized and EASY to control/conquer America is just what the New World Order wants. The America of ideas, freedom, individual liberty, personal property, and sound money is anathema to them. America has to be marginalized or reduced for the One-World oligarchy to rule.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:35 - ID#26793)
I just did a search using the word "deflation" and received 21 articles! My previous record, only a week ago was 11. I have been doing this since June and the usual response would be zero to three.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:37 - ID#31868)
Spud Master: I do not discount much of what you say, and I now see how this all came about. My last post stated clearly my thought on foreign troops on US soil. But nobody minded during the Olympics when we had more foreign troops ( police? ) call them what you want, on US soil than at any other time in recent history. Remember Altlanta?

I say buy gold and silver, and sit and wait. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, because if they do not, like I said, the Northern Hemisphere will glow at night for many years.

We American's have no one to blame but ourselves. When you give somebody something for nothing, they become, nothing.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:42 - ID#31868)
Spud Master: Just a thought. Perhaps a kind word to our Australian friends. This is the US and well, Australia is their's. We need to clean up our collective mess in our own backyard, and not by tossing bones over the fence, pond, ocean, whatever. Just a thought.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:45 - ID#31868)
This Swiss mess, the Swiss should pony up, the Us Govt should pony up and the reserve bank should pony up the cash, gold and all other goods and associated whatever's connected with this Nazis gold.

Will it happen. No.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:48 - ID#267277)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:50 - ID#26793)

NOVEMBER 3, 1997 VOL. 150 NO. 18




Maybe you were distracted by the landing of Pathfinder on Mars or were just
not paying particular attention when Thailand's currency, the baht, began to fall
to earth like a wounded satellite. On July 2 the baht plunged more than 12% in
value against the greenback. Then it crashed into the Philippines, Malaysia and
Indonesia, where government officials were forced to devalue their currencies.
That triggered a region-wide crisis, in which stock markets gave up as much as
35% of their value, inflated real estate prices fell through the floor, banks
collapsed, and hundreds of thousands of Southeast Asians, rich and poor, lost
their jobs and fortunes.

Last week the reverberations of that early
July disaster reached Wall Street,
following a brief and awful stopover in
Hong Kong. The former British colony
had formed the Maginot Line of money,
vowing to use its $88 billion in foreign
reserves to fight off speculators and keep
its highly valued currency pegged to the
U.S. dollar at a rich 7.8-to-1 ratio. The
gambit succeeded--but at a price: $42
billion of Hong Kong's storied wealth
disappeared in short order as the Hang
Seng index dropped 6% on Wednesday,
then 10.4% on Thursday. The "red chips"
of the Hang Seng, the stocks of mainland Chinese companies, were bled white.
"This is a full-fledged, absolute crash," said Kent Rossiter, an investment
adviser for Nikko Securities in Hong Kong.

Hours later Wall Street was in full retreat. The global economy, once an
abstraction to most people, had shown up front and center to deliver the bad
news. Investors, fearing that the earnings of large U.S. companies exposed to
Asia would suffer, began to sell. On Thursday the market dropped 186.88
points. On Friday, while the Hang Seng recovered, the Dow fell an additional
132.36 points, unable to take comfort in the good news. In New York City,
out-of-favor issues ranged from big airlines with Pacific routes, like American
and United, to consumer-product companies like Coca-Cola. Semiconductor
stocks took a beating, along with high-tech giants like IBM and
Hewlett-Packard, which earns 16% of its revenues from the region.

All could face an Asian double whammy,
at least in the short run. First, the region's
economic crunch will probably cause its
consumers and companies to buy less
from America. Second, sales by U.S.
firms in Asia won't add as much to their
bottom line because Far Eastern
currencies are worth 20% to 40% less
than they were just a few months ago.
Warns Sung Won Sohn, chief economist
at Norwest Corp., a large bank based in
Minneapolis, Minn.: "The collapse of
Hong Kong and other Asian economies is spreading like an oil slick that will
continue to wash up on America's shores."

Not all of that is bad. Slamming on the brakes of a runaway market may help
prevent a worse crash later. Also, devaluation of Asian currencies will make
Asian exports cheaper, help keep inflation at bay in the U.S. and deter the
Federal Reserve from raising interest rates.

Hong Kong will have a harder time divining any benefits from its predicament.
Analysts expect the roiled markets to spell high interest rates, sending the
Chinese enclave's crucial property market into a tailspin, leading to economic
slowdown, lost jobs and continuing trouble for other nations in the region,
particularly Japan, which has a big investment in Hong Kong and other
Southeast Asian real estate.

And Hong Kong is one of the more stable denizens of a region where the once
grand gown of the Asian Miracle is weekly growing more frayed and tattered.
From Seoul to Bangkok, economies that earlier made annual double-digit
growth look easy are now strangling on a lethal brew of skyrocketing interest
rates, current-account deficits, shrinking budgets and rapid flight of the foreign
loans and capital that in many countries underwrote the miracle. "Right now my
feeling is one of despair," says a Jakarta stockbroker who has watched the
Indonesian stock market drop 33% since July. ( It was down 5.8% just last
week. ) "Looks like it's going to get worse and worse before there's any chance
of its getting any better."

How could things go so wrong so fast? One reason is that Asia's "tiger"
economies had a virtually unlimited credit line from the world's bankers. The
easy money combined with easy virtue in places like Indonesia, where an
authoritarian government and crony capitalism led to corruption, poor
corporate management and gross overspending on grandiose public projects.
The foreign capital borrowed to build many of those projects has become
much more expensive to pay back because of devaluations. In fact, much of
the debt will have to be restructured.

In Thailand the government has negotiated a $17.2 billion International
Monetary Fund bailout that will force it to raise taxes, cut its budget and rein in
the worst abuses in its out-of-control financial system. The IMF has also
stepped in with new loans for the Philippines, and has begun putting together
what could be a $15 billion rescue package for Indonesia.

Meanwhile, economists are slashing their projections for the region. The
Goldman Sachs investment firm predicts Malaysia's growth in 1998 will slow to
4%. Investment giant Morgan Stanley foresees that growth in the beleaguered
Thai economy, which from 1993 to '96 averaged 8.2% annually, will shrink
1.5% next year.

The crisis has been made worse by the flailing, amateurish response of some of
the affected leaders. As Malaysia's currency, the ringgit, and its stock market
plummeted, mercurial Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad implied that
international financier George Soros and his ilk were responsible. He then
trotted out a familiar, repellent accusation, blaming Jewish speculators who he
contended were out to squash the economy of a Muslim country. His
proposals to restrict currency trading and otherwise punish foreign investors
quickly scared away new investment and called into question the future of what
has been one of the world's great economic success stories.

In Thailand the crisis put an end to what an analyst calls "golf-course
capitalism" and raised the specter of domestic unrest. With credit growth far
exceeding the growth rate of the economy, Thais had been investing in
increasingly risky assets, dozens of golf courses among them. "Capital will be
more productively used," says David Roche, president of Independent Strategy
in London. "The people are the same."

Not quite. Tens of thousands of Thais who until very recently enjoyed a
middle-class life have been abruptly thrown into unemployment and poverty.
Countless industrial firms, restaurants and other businesses have collapsed.
There is no longer a wait to tee off. With 58 banks and finance companies at
risk of bankruptcy, some managers are being forced to give up their
Mercedes-Benz and drive taxis instead.

Last week Piti Sukakul, managing director of the President Tour Co., was
found dead in a hotel room with a bullet wound in his head, an apparent
suicide. In spite of the cheap baht, the overbuilt Thai tourism industry has been
devastated. "How do we cope?" asked Khunying Chanut Piyaoui, chairman of
the Dusit Thani hotel group, speaking of both the hotel business and the overall
economy. "It is so unprecedented, so unexpected. Nobody believed it would
be so bad, so nobody has any plan or is prepared to deal with it."

Thais are turning their bewilderment into anger. Two weeks ago, at the urging
of Finance Minister Thanong Bidaya and the IMF, Prime Minister Chavalit
Yongchaiyudh's Cabinet passed a tax on oil of 1 baht per liter. The levy caused
such an outcry that Chavalit rescinded it three days later, whereupon Thanong
resigned. On Friday the political turmoil deepened. Chavalit shuffled his
Cabinet and named banker Kosit Panpiemras as the new Finance Minister. He
also set the stage for an early election by pledging that Parliament next month
would debate laws facilitating the provisions in a newly adopted constitution
that would allow a general election to be held as early as December.

One reason that Southeast Asia's descent into economic turmoil came as such
a shock is that, on paper at least, most countries appeared to be in supremely
good health, even as their currencies came under attack and their stock
markets began to teeter. In Indonesia wages were rising, inflation was low,
exports were projected to rise 14% this year, and until very recently analysts
stuck to their forecasts of 8% economic growth for a second consecutive year.
"There were no obvious warning signals of the kind of catastrophe that was
about to hit Indonesia--at least [none] that we were watching," says Dennis de
Tray, of the World Bank office in Jakarta.

That's because too many deals were being cut under the table, and countries
such as Thailand and Indonesia don't have regulatory agencies capable of
swatting the bad actors. "The most important factor is that the financial
statements of big companies that have borrowed money offshore are not true,"
says economist Kwik Kian Gie. "There are many Indonesian companies that
are bandits, that have deliberately created financial statements that make things
appear much better than the reality." Now the banks have cut off the credit.
"Nobody--no Indonesian, no foreigner--wants to bring dollars into Indonesia,"
says De Tray. "What does that mean? It means they think it's going to get

Hong Kong's new parent country, China, has so far been spared the brunt of
the Asian downturn. But last week's stock-market crash made clear that as
Hong Kong goes, so goes China's capitalist revolution. Some of the hardest-hit
stocks early in the week were the "red chips"--though they recovered most of
their losses on Friday.

The question now is whether Hong Kong, the last holdout against devaluation,
can stand its ground. Hong Kong chief executive C.H. Tung said his
government would do everything in its power, including spending down some
of its reserves, to guard the exchange rate. To discourage borrowing by
speculators, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority drained liquidity from the
economy, which drove overnight bank interest rates as high as 300% last
week. The banks then raised the prime rate from 8.75% to 9.5%.

The strategy could backfire. In an economy like Hong Kong's, an increase in
the interest rates will hurt the all important property owners, whose companies
dominate the stock market and owe billions to the banks. It raises the fear that,
as in Japan, real estate deflation could undermine the whole fragile structure. If
that happened, the tremors that shook the world's financial markets last week
would seem as placid as a sail on a junk in Hong Kong harbor.

Barring another, more serious meltdown, analysts consider it unlikely that the
tumult in Asia will trigger a major market correction in the U.S. But that doesn't
mean it won't have a lasting impact. David Hale of Zurich Kemper Investments
predicts a surge of up to 25% in Asian imports made cheap by devaluation and
a contraction in U.S. exports of as much as 15%. The result could be that the
U.S. trade deficit, now $191 billion, would balloon to as much $300 billion
next year and fan a protectionist outcry.

The message is that interdependence between the U.S. and Asia is real and
growing. Boeing projects that it will sell a third of its aircraft there over the next
20 years. Increasingly, when Asia sneezes, as it did last week in Hong Kong,
America will catch cold.

--Reported by Robert Horn /Bangkok, Rahul Jacob /Hong Kong, David
Liebhold /Jakarta and Adam Zagorin /Washington, with other bureaus


Air carriers with Asian routes got caught in the downdraft. AMR ( American )
fell close to $4 a share, to $118.69. United lost nearly $8, landing at 91.94

Asia has been a big consumer of computers and accessories, so tech stocks
slid. Hewlett-Packard fell $3 a share and closed trading at $63.88

Consumer-goods companies such as Coca-Cola that sell heavily overseas took
a bath, with Coke's stock dipping almost $4, to finish at $55.50

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:51 - ID#263259)
Important news
I've had trouble accessing Kitco today so this may be already there.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 16:55 - ID#267277)
Dow Jones gains
Just read in todays Globe & Mail that DJIA gained 33.5 and 26 percent
in 95 and 96 respectively.Would appreciate if someone could post
gains for years 91 thru 94.Thanks in advance.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:05 - ID#26793)
I hope you all get to read that post at 16:50. An excellent analysis. I had to post the whole story rather than the URL because it is a protected URL.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:08 - ID#18970)
I. It Must Be Friday.

If it a crisis situation and a Friday then it must be Swiss Selling gold reiteration day. It is comical what they will do to get cover for a raid. The annoucement yesterday should have been bullish as instead of 1400 million tonnes being sold the new more official proposal is to sell only 400-800 million tonnes ( as if it makes a difference ) over 3-8 years beginning in 2000 if approved. Apparently a Swiss Finance Minister said gold was no longer an appropriate investment. Silver went down more than gold are the Swiss also selling their silver.

II Rush The Market Maven and Detective Rush

Rush repeat of Fri program was interesting as he referred to concern that the Federal Govt bought futures on Tues to prop up the stk mkt. He thought the "Plunge Protection Team" may have intervened so Clinton could take credit for the rebound. I dont agree with Rush on many things but it is great to hear the scam being discussed in wide spread media.He stated rightfully that" the govt had no business protecting profits in the market place".

III Plunge Protection and Gold Suppression

If there is a Plunge Protection Team there is also a Gold Suppression Team. The timing/ idiocy and technically coincident selling of gold and even shortage silver lead very heavily to this conclusion. When these mkts assume their natural course it will be a financial hydrogen bomb. But for when/ I guess we have to read the tea leaves/ they seem to be getting a little desparate/ridiculous and overzealous now which may be a sign thast the explosion is near at hand.

IV Throw Out Those Charts and Supply/Demand Stats!!! PLEASE!!

If the intervention/manipulation is true then you can throw technical analysis out the window except to know that financials will get technical buying at all support levels and metals will meet selling at technical resistance levels and aggressive selling when there is a breakout to drive them back into a technically weak position/ the latter will especially occur when there is financial mart uncertainty. The bigger the bubble the more emphatic the activity has to become as a soft landing becomes more improbable.

The stk mkt breakdown of last week was the first time the stk mkt broke technical support since 1990. It will take A BIG effort to get it back. The Plunge Protection Team will get a chance to really prove itself now!

The manipulation is why Peutz/GSC etc are basically wrong. If they accept that the markets are not honest then they could take a different tack

V. WW's road TO WEALTH RECOMMENDATIONS:OR Moveover PEUTZ ( BARRON'S Qouted One ) , GSC and yes even Wollanchuk.
Its Sooo Simple!

1 ) Go long the financial mkts a day or two before any major economic report or before Greenspan makes a major address or the Fed is to take action. Up mkts surrounding these events are necessary to maintain confidence and keep the money flowing.

2 ) Short gold if any crisis situation seems to be developing. Short after the first pop when mkt participants first learn or suspect a crisis.

3 ) After gold is hammered go long when the situation in the financial mkts is stabalized. At this time the raiders will cover their shorts and gold will rally to its technical resistance level at which time reverse and go short or stay long in case there is an oversold condition breakout because shortage silver will not break down with gold. Buy a put for protection. Or do a long Silver Short Gold trade almost a SURE winner.

4 ) Go long bonds especially if a crisis looks like it might develop/ this can be extremely profitable when combined with a simultaneous Gold short.

5 ) Short bonds after they rally on weak economic reports which you would think would be continually bullish for bonds. Really weak econ reports are bad for bonds because they could be bad for the dollar and thus bad for capital flows. This is why you rarely hear any EXCEPT after the reports got TOO strong and they need a weak report to ensure balance in how the goldilocks economy is viewed.

VI. Technical Analysis Conclusion ( again throw out your charts and your fundamental analysis as it is costly )

Goldilocks will cause the greatest bubble in history as every dollar that can be committed will be committed. When the flow stops the Plunge Protection Team and the Gold Suppression Team will fail.

Good Luck Trading:


I will talk with you personally if you want more guidance but I charge $20 for every ten minutes.

Hurry more news
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:11 - ID#403210)
@end of world
Hold hands and jump. The world has ended.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:17 - ID#348169)
Donald - Although many, many of your news information posts are informative, please provide URL links and short summaries. We, each of us then decide whether to read. In this way the space Bart provides does not become overburdened. If even ten participants started reprinting 5-10 long articles each day the site would become cramped and unworkble. Thanks for your participation and consideration.

New Bile
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:22 - ID#390180)
@low low low premium price
I am a small investor of gold/silver. I periodically purchase these items for the lowest prices usually by calling several dealers. Is there a way to purchase several hundered oz of silver or 10 oz gold more directly so that I may shave some bucks off the premium of Maples and/or Eagles ?

Greatly appreciate any advice. Thanx!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:23 - ID#348169)
Caught your excuse just after I posted. Thanks Donald! WW - Why so cheap?

George Cole
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:24 - ID#42953)
final washout
What I said on the other site was that if gold doesn't rally convincingly and soon, a final smash down is likely in the very near future. I think this is Eldorado's position as well. And this smash will be the washout that ends the gold bear. Perhaps a bear as ferocious as this can only end in a massive capitulatory collapse such as the late 1974 bottom in equities.

The final trough probably will be in when we see a $20 plunge one morning, but bullion closes higher for the day.

But whether we rally strongly from here or experience a final selling climax to below $300, this bear is on its last legs. The stock bear, by contrast, is just beginning.

News Update
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:28 - ID#390100)

French truckers may strike. Keep an eye on this one.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:28 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:32 - ID#335190)
Swiss & Forward sales @ GOLD will take Two years to recover
Saturday, November 1, 1997
Swiss add to gold market's tarnish

Mining Reporter The Financial Post
For the second time in seven days a committee of the Swiss government has thrown cold water on the gold market, sending the price of bullion down by US$5.10 an ounce on Friday. Gold closed at US$311.30 in New York, close to a 12 1/2-year low.

The Toronto Stock Exchange's gold and precious minerals subindex fell 1.6%, or 122.42 points, to 7548.04 points.

"I think it's a very real possibility that gold will be undervalued for a couple of more years," said Pierre Lassonde, president of Franco-Nevada Mining Corp. Franco-Nevada and its sister company Euro-Nevada Mining Corp. Ltd. are gold royalty companies, holding profit interests in other companies' mines.

The problem of central bank sales, Lassonde said, is being made worse by excessive hedging by gold producers themselves. In his view, the producers have shot themselves in the foot this year by increasing their sales of gold in futures contracts.

Gold miners, able to earn higher prices in forward sales, have sold about 400 more tonnes of gold this year than during 1996 in futures contracts, he said. The stepped-up forward sales add to a market already beset by a historic high level of central bank sales and the 2,300tonnes of gold the producers will turn out this year.

"The central banks are to blame and the producers are just as much to blame." The gold market will firm up when the spread between spot sales and futures sales closes, Lassonde added. "But I don't believe it's going to happen in the short term."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:34 - ID#26793)

George Cole
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:39 - ID#42953)
Gold Suppression Team
WW: There is much truth in what you say. But you err in assuming the establishment has virtually absolute financial power and will always be able to make the markets dance to their bidding. This game can only be carried so far and no farther.

The higher stocks go the tougher it gets for the Plunge Protection Team. And the lower gold goes, the tougher it gets for the Gold Suppression Team.

New Bile
(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:43 - ID#390180)
Really could use help for my posting of 17:22.


(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:44 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:47 - ID#333131)
Out come the demonstrators in Iraq

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:52 - ID#269218)

Over the last several months, I have posted several 'posts', some of which have referred to the "Achille's Heel" of the investment markets/economic world. The Achille's Heel is/are: For. Currencies, the Energy sector, and Grains. These are the LEADING BULL MARKETS, of this time. These investment groups, are but symptoms, ultimately, of an "angry earth".

Although many of us may 'perceive' .... that it is Suddam Hussein's insanities, that will compell the energy sector higher, in the period just ahead, ( - I have been recommending the energy sector now, for the last 2-3 months; see my previous posts ) , and the grains ( -El Nino is 'already' 'here' ) -- these are but a symptom and signals... of an ...
"angry earth" .

Western civilzation, and the 'global economy'... will be brought to its' knees, in the proverbial sense, unless and until, a sound basis for money, and economic trade & commerce, are agreed upon, on a world-wide scale/level. Thus, until that time - we will now witness the birth of a new, long-term bull market chapter in the Sw. franc, and the D-Mark. It is part of the "Achiiles Heel" -- one of the three compments of the investment & econmic world's vulnerability -- energy, grains & currencies -- that will bring about - ultimately - total upheaval - in the investment, economic, and political world,
as we know it, today.

The current economic, political & monetary world, is about to usher in -- the beginning of the end -- of the U.S. dollar, as the world's - "reserve currency".

Friday's ( 10/31/97 ) investment & trading markets' action, is one more example of the "disguised close" phenomenon -- that is inherent in all trading, and investment markets. All markets, can be manipulated .... but only -- in the very, very, short-term time-frame -- of a few days or weeks.

Gold and silver, are about to follow the 'foreign' currencies --
the Sw. franc & the D-Mark -- to the upside, and dramatically so.

Many there are who listen, few there are, who here.
It is often darkest before the dawn.

Independent-thinking investors and traders, would do well to remain steadfastly committed - each - to his/her - self, and to his/her beliefs and investment philosophy .... and soul.

It is always more fun, to - not give up - just before ... the miracle.

Sincerely yours,
David Blair Macrory, C.T.A.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:53 - ID#333131)
Indonesian deposistors to get up to $5555 in 16 closed banks

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:53 - ID#26793)
George Cole: I agree. We need a better metal price soon or some miners could go bankrupt. Even if the companies I own are in good shape their share price would be impacted. I have noticed that bullion is starting to ebb and flow with stock swings in the past week. Weakness in the dollar and/or T-Bonds could help gold also as the "safe haven" mentality of those "investments" gets adjusted.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:55 - ID#18970)
Gold is the contra financial asset. The fundamentals "appear" to be bleak and they are constantly REPEATED to the same extent that the great environment for financials is touted as unending and oft REPEATED. The latest spin is that th Asia crisis and our mkt decline is good. The bubble in financials is so pervasive that all forces have to be mustered to keep it going or soft land it. The latter is not likely if gold rallies because of its negative implications for bonds/the dollar and overall confidence which with the extent of participation in the bubble must be maintained at all costs/ergo the crisis. The everything is fine cry is getting a little shrill and obvious in its nature not to believe that the situation is currently more fragile than it has ever been. Remeber Goebbels towards the end of WWII/TOTAL WAR.

The real story.

Asia and Latin America in recession/ Europe and the rest of the world languishing. Remaining growth being supported by US Credit Card purchases ( with BRs goin through the roof as debt at record levels and real incomes down from 1989 ) and booming financial marts. GO FIGURE. It is real easy to see how Goldilocks could easily turn into the Three Bears called US stocks, Bonds and Real Estate. The line of resistance to make the crash ultimately worse is YOUR Plunge Protection Team and probably your Gold Suppression Team.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 17:55 - ID#31868)
New Bile: You might make a start by scroll down and give them a call, I am sure they would be more than happy to help you.

New Bile
(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:02 - ID#390180)
tolerant1: Just as I was getting discouraged from the lack of response from the "knowledgeable men of gold" you pull through. I never realised Kitco sold in such small volumes ( 100 oz ) . I at times use Blanchard, Tulving, et al for bullion purchases but I will now try Kitco.

Thanx again for riding in on your "Gold Horse" and restoring my faith. The more folks we infect with the "virus" the greater the potential for upswing ... thanx again ...

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:05 - ID#18970)
I was shocked to hear Govt manipulation of the stk mkt discussed openly in the mainstream media through Rush. If he keeps it up I am sure he will receive a phone call. GSC do you think this has any implications?
IE a new stage of public revelation. OR If the public thinks the govt supports the bubble it could it make it bigger. Maybe this is the reason the PPT went public in the Washington Post Thoughts.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:11 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:18 - ID#26793)
WW: Everytime I hear a talking head on CNBC say "the fundamentals are sound" I want to puke. The same with the "I'm in for the long haul" Spend 1 hour at Kitco and you will learn that the fundamentals are not sound. The long haul will get you killed.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:23 - ID#288180)
Why can't I access comments from 1300:1759 ?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:27 - ID#240142)
@the future?

Friday October 31 6:49 PM EST

Soros group cuts Newmont Mining stake

WASHINGTON, Oct 31 ( Reuters ) - A group including international financier George Soros said on Friday it has reduced
its stake in Newmont Mining Corp to 4.79 percent or 7,485,177 common shares.

In a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, the group said it sold 1,265,900 shares of the
Denver-based company between Sept. 30 and Oct. 23 at $44.86 to $45.27 each.
This is old news...he's probably waiting till Tuesday to jump back in after sell off on Monday!

Stillwater Mining ( SWC ) is the only real PGM mine outside of SA or Russia. Somebody just picked up 1100 option contracts for April 98 on last Thursday. Somebody is bullish on metals. I would venture that NEM LEAP option activity, expecially blocks, would be a good indicator of the future "bull" in gold. Both NEM and SWC posted good earnings last week yet have had mediocre results in stock activity ( except for SWC option purchase of 1100 contracts ) .

Maybe not very technical analysis...but kind of a blue collar approach. Interesting that Soros got out of NEM at the recent peak! Right before the Swiss debacle.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:27 - ID#31868)
New Bile: Your welcome, you should also go to

And you may wish to post your question again. There are many here who are better versed than me.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:32 - ID#240142)
The following was my comments on the Soros article:

This is old news...he's probably waiting till Tuesday to jump back in after sell off on Monday!

Stillwater Mining ( SWC ) is the only real PGM mine outside of SA or Russia. Somebody just picked up 1100 option contracts for April 98 on last Thursday. Somebody is bullish on metals. I would venture that
NEM LEAP option activity, expecially blocks, would be a good indicator of the future "bull" in gold. Both NEM and SWC posted good earnings last week yet have had mediocre results in stock activity ( except for SWC option purchase of 1100 contracts ) .

Maybe not very technical analysis...but kind of a blue collar approach. Interesting that Soros got out of NEM at the recent peak! Right before the Swiss debacle.

I finally figured it out
(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:35 - ID#42575)
George S. Cole is completely looney
you know how sometimes crazy people can drive sane people
batty? Well, George S. Cole has now informed us that
"the gold bear is on its last legs". Here is another
nonsensical post. What does it mean to be on one's last
legs, George? How long can one stand on one's last legs?
Could you give us a time frame, George? Do you see this
gold bear lasting one month longer? One year? One decade?

Oh, and you people who say it doesn't matter where you get in
when you buy gold - Why are you posting? Why aren't you out
buying? Are you advocating that the money people spend on
gold should be money they would otherwise squander? I mean,
you've been reduced to talking about gold as a form of insurance,
like house insurance - probably not necessary buy nice to have.
Do you advocate spending $10,000/year on house insurance versus
$1000/year? Is this also something where price doesn't matter?
Did you do any comparisons before buying house insurance? Or did
you just take the first price that came along.

Donald - Please restrict your posts to 3 word summaries.
Mooney is back and he's going to start giving us a lot more
whale news and quotes from Louis XVI. What was that quote
again, Mooney? I think it would be helpful to post it again,
since you posted it when the bottom was in.

All - Every weekend for the past five months we have had someone
come on the site and say sentiment is at an all-time low, it
is obvious that NOW the bottom is in, etc. Also, every weekend
for about 10 months we have people post that dealers are completely
out of bullion, no supplies left, etc. I remember posting a rebuttal
after someone posted such nonsense around the time of the Florida
Numismatics show. That was back in January. Do you get it?
You have been completely wrong, and the more you post this nonsense,
the less chance any visitors to this site have of actually finding
useful information. Do everyone a favor and stop posting silliness.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:35 - ID#30116)
Well! Barron's was quite a read this weekend. If I didn't know better, I'd say all the market gurus are scared sh**less. Hence the, buy, buy, buy, mantra. Hell, even Marty Zweig was saying it could go up if doesn't go down. :- ) )

Every market pontifica

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:36 - ID#30116)
Well! Barron's was quite a read this weekend. If I didn't know better, I'd say all the market gurus are scared sh**less. Hence the, buy, buy, buy, mantra. Hell, even Marty Zweig was saying it could go up if doesn't go down. :- ) )

Every market pontificator was mentioned, and no where was GOLD mentioned. Real estate, energy, oil, commodities ( beans, corn, etc. ) , were mentioned, but not gold. WW, I think you are dead on with the analysis of gold. I nearly fell over when I heard Rush Limbaugh mention the Plunge Protection Team on his show. It's all amazing! Remember! Those who are in the bubble, CANNOT see the bubble.

One section of Barron's had a fund manager recommending various tech stocks, the hardest hit sector. Now, let's talk about momentum investing! :- ) )

Buy the dips anyone? Only if you can get out, of course! :- ) )

Look at the discussion that the trading halts have started, now that they have been invoked for the first time. Yup, I can see rule changes and thousand point days in the future.

By all means, have fun in the markets, but screw the bastards at their own game. Buy some physical gold! Don't blow all of you spare cash on this, mind you. Just call it a 'small' insurance policy. The bright side is this, you'll be contributing to the slow squeeze in gold. :- )

In the near term, gold will probably go lower due to the mad rush in to equities. When the tide turns....... It will be a tsunami. :- )

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:38 - ID#241277)
Watcher...good blue collar intuition on Soros...probably close to the truth..consider Soro's link to N.M. Rothschild & Sons and thus the LBMA as noted by Oracle of Alberta...Soros most certainly knows more than most and his link to old merchant banking powers like Rothschild might help explain his uncanny timing in currency markets, which undoubtedly include uncanny timing in gold markets. Your post is classic Rothschild actions of old when Nathan Rothschild would single-handedly manipulate stock prices in London... Keep that intuition sharpened!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:40 - ID#31868)
WW: The more I think about it, I think I am just going to start buying metal every Friday and Monday, Friday's for sure. This is literally starting to run like a Swiss clock.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:46 - ID#30116)
Earl -- On your comment regarding the weekly versus monthly Dow. Eerie, isn't it? Barron's made note of the same trend in the Dow, that is, its' downward projection since August. Also, they were amazed ( ! ) at the record volumes being set on a daily basis. The bulls quoted in Barron's are using these facts to claim better times are coming. My question is this; Who was doing the selling, and who was doing the buying?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:46 - ID#340261)
@who cares
Figure it out-why are u wastin' ur brilliance here??? Something of interest here must grab u. Get a life!!!!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:48 - ID#26793)
October 31, 1997
Dear Bob, I have an account with an "internet" brokerage service which I
opened for the sole purpose of purchasing leap puts as I had last week.
What I wish to comment about is the complete inability to access the
account at all after over 10 attempts during the day Tuesday. My attempts
with telephone access also ended in failure ( busy signal ) . What is really
strange is the fact that on todays Yahoo news there is a story in which this
brokerage service is complementing themselves on how well thier systems
functioned during the unusually busy day. I was able to access many other
financial sites with no problem so I dont think the problem was internet
"traffic". I'm not the conspricay theory type but I am suspicious on this
activity and the almost instant turnaround that the market experienced in
the morning. Could the market have possibly recieved some "help" from an
inflow of capital originating from ??? Thank You for your great writings.
Reply from Bob Prechter

When you are ready to sell your puts in the middle of a crash, make sure that you
put in your orders before the opening, perhaps the night before. Then enter a few
wild prices and see what you get when people have to buy them back at the
market. No, I don't think the Fed bought anything on Tuesday. If it did, the market
has more to worry about than it knows. --RP

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:49 - ID#243180)
McMar: Apparently your time is spent analyzing others who you deem as folks without a life. What does this make U.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:50 - ID#315256)
@ STock market to 20,000
Just started an interesting book on why the stock market ( DOW ) is destined to go to 20,000 or higher within the next 10 years. Will post synopsis when I finish reading it. So far the premises seem pretty sound.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:51 - ID#243180)
Sorry for the spelling: McMac not McMar

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:54 - ID#426220)
Novus Ordo Seclorum ( Rothschild, George Soros et al ) versus the Chinese Dragon --- world monetary and political dominance the prize --- TRICK OR TREAT????????:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:57 - ID#240142)
@for the record

This NEM news was one day before Soros article and further NEM drop...currently $1 above July 7 price of $34.

Reason for block purchase of Apr98 calls

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:57 - ID#30116)
@Servers and such
Well, Bart confirmed it. If this URL is bogged down due to lurkers peeking in at major market turning points... What more do you need to know? Clearly, there is much interest in the barbarous relic. What a scream! A defacto, high-tech confidence/no-confidence voting both! :- ) )

Look, the big money players can move the markets with ease. It's only bits and bytes. Paper contracts on gold or gold mining company stocks, can all be manipulated. It's a casino, have fun. The bottom line is, and will be, THE METAL.

After all, stocks can become ugly wallpaper, futures contracts, options contracts, and options on futures contracts, for all intents and purposes, don't really exist. A fine Maple or Koala ( or whatever your choice is ) DOES EXIST, usually in YOUR hand too!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:57 - ID#340261)
@meme chose
Wet Gold-these stacatto silly statements do not require an indepth analysis. Why don't u switch over to one of those sex channels for more

(Sat Nov 01 1997 18:58 - ID#408247)
@ ***Moooooney***
There once was a poster named Mooney
His posts seemed a little bit gooney
He says "respect the bold"
who claim "Gold's oversold"
Now it's plain that he's just one more Looney

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:01 - ID#333131)
Donald, Now that Indonesia is closing banks, how long do you think the lines will be Mon. at the open ones? How long before other Asian people get the jitters and make a run?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:02 - ID#243180)
McMac: U remind me of those pedantic professors I had in college that discussed parenthetic issues unrelated to the subject at hand. This forum is a rather intersting place by which tolerant people exchange their ideas and commentaries freely - not with malice toward those with which U disagree.

Regarding your comment on sex chat house - since I have no experience in such non-sense I'll leave it to U to theorize how I would perform in such an atmosphere. Your overwhelming experience in such areas are apparently your stronghold.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:05 - ID#315256)
@ Puetz, Puetzke, Puetzmesiter, Puetzter, Puetzolator
In case you missed it yesterday, the 31st is past and YOU LOSE!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:06 - ID#30116)
LGB -- I have three trading accounts at different brokers. Tuesday morning I could not access any of them. I had to wait two hours after the open before I could get any trades through. I saw some spectacular 'minute trades' on the tech stocks. These are trades that last for less than fifteen minutes and typically yield 10 - 15%. I passed on them during Tuesday. What good is a trade if you cant exit it? BTW, the stocks all reversed their gains in less than an hour. This is what I mean by, casino , mentality.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:07 - ID#347457)
@loosing it so what the heck
My friends, with all "interventions and rescuing" I am loosing "short tern faith" in gold. Looks like nobody knows when and how this market will turn, though I believe it will. Call me crazy but here I go. I am moving some of my money into China & HK. Sure there is a risk involved ( but not any bigger than in Gold ) . Don't we all say "buy when it's low"? I think the upward potential is good and will happen ( I think ) in shorter time than in gold. Lets gamble, just like with gold ( Ill keep some money in ) .
Yeah, I can miss the boat on gold a bit, but I think I can recover some of what I lost. Why not the US market? Well, when the US market drops as much as HK did, I'll consider it ;- )

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:08 - ID#340261)
Wet Gold-No malice intended. Enuff said!!!! Back to enjoying this site.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:09 - ID#30116)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:10 - ID#194311)
beware...greek BEARing gifts
Storms have passed for world markets: Soros
LONDON, Nov 1 ( AFP ) - The fierce storms that have buffeted
financial markets around the world are over, billionaire US
financier Georges Soros told BBC radio on Saturday.
"This particular storm has passed," said Soros, whose Quantum
hedge fund lost two billion dollars, or 10 percent of its value, on
the markets early in the week.
He added that "the markets need to be kept under some sort of
control" to avert wild fluctuations -- ideally "an international
authority dealing with supervision."
Soros has been cast as one of the major actors in the turmoil on
stock and foreign exchange markets that erupted in Southeast Asia
and then spread worldwide.
He denies allegations by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir
Mohamed that he was responsible for sending the value of Asian
currencies tumbling.
Soros said that while central banks were currently the only ones
able to confront speculators, future reaction ought to be done "on
an international level."
On Britain's decision not to join European monetary union ( EMU )
from 1999, Soros said there were obstacles to short-term
But he added: "In the long run, Britain must be part of it. It
would really suffer to be out of it."
"EMU would give a greater degree of stability inside Europe," he
said, although it would not halt future upsets on other world

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:11 - ID#30116)
Miro -- Nothing wrong with that. Just stay close to the screen and make sure you can pull the trigger when needed. :- )

Really gone....

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:23 - ID#26793)

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:28 - ID#26793)
Carl: Will respond later. Taking computer off line for thunderstorm.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:30 - ID#426220)
This past week we all witnessed the market making ALL-TIME
RECORDS: greatest one-day DOW point loss in history on Monday,
followed by the greatest one-day DOW point gain in history on Tuesday. It's my considered opinion that internal dynamics of the market do NOT have the required strength to cause such whipsaw action... there must be an external force exerting inordinate pressures. I may be too old-fashion, but I thought market manipulation was illegal - regardless who the culprit might be... or is it that some are above the LAW?! We received via email visual evidence there is indeed blatant and obscene stock market manaipulation. Here is the report with charts - comments and observations invited:

Old Gold
(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:33 - ID#237143)
Sick and Sicker
Hepcrap: You are pathetic and sick individual. Your ravings would be funny if they didn't indicate a diseased brain. If you speak to people the same way you post here, you must have gotten the crap kicked out of you repeatedly. George Cole, Mooney and all the others you have repeatedly attacked are worth a thousand of your kind despite their errors.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:42 - ID#403159)
Is this what you want. Bend over and open your mouth.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:45 - ID#341192)
JIN what will people do in Malaysia if banks are going to be closed?

Will they hold cash at home or gold? Perhaps move their money to a foregin bank?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:46 - ID#408152)
War with ET
Okay, LGB: Before you begin making fun of us for believing that such an event would produce a spike in the price of gold, let me emphatically deny that anyone at Kitco has even *suggested* that the Air Force shot down the Roswell UFO. So don't even bring it up.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 19:58 - ID#31868)
Kiwi: From what I read in your post, Mr. Soros thinks we need an international body to govern the markets essentially to protect all us poor little people from someone like him.

I hope somebody already jumped down his throat for this remark.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:05 - ID#251165)
@ the precipise
Swiss announcement and CBs selling of gold calls.
Well it was all to coincidental that the Swiss announcement coincided
with the ravaging of world stock markets. In hindsight the announcement
was made to stop the flight to quality; stocks, bonds, dollars to
gold. Why would the CBs want to stop such a phenomena?
Why would they announce that they are going to sell something,and deflate
the price, when it would be their duty to maximise profits from any
asset sale? Well the answer might lie in the perseption by CBs that GOLD
has been an unprofitable asset earning low returns. Once this perception
was accepted the engineering of a means to increase profit on gold assets
took place. So what do they day? They start writing calls on their gold.
The writer of a call option wants the price of the underlying asset to be
below the exercise at expiry. Now this practice can and has been very
profitable. Most calls evaporate to zilch and are not exercised. As
mentioned by a commentator the CBs are having to sell gold, push prices
down and generally cause a market of pessimism to keep their most precious asset, the ugly sister, gold. This could go on for ever! But
it will not. There be, or has been, a final capitulation, where prices
start rising again and CBs stop lieing about their involvement in
possibly one of the great scams of this century.

Any additions or comments would be appreciated, thankyou.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:19 - ID#256321)
Don't blame me for whats about to happen. I'm just doing my job. I got chosen to do everyones dirty work.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:20 - ID#31868)
Does it not strike anyone else as interesting to say the least that the world knows the angular aspects of the penis of the President of the United States, but the Central Banker's are like shadows in the fog.

How is it that Americans know all about aliens and Roswell, but none of them are storming the capitol to demand that money be coined in gold and silver as it clearly states in the Constitution.

John F. Kennedy is murdered and our government proves the magic bullet theory, but most Americans have never even heard about President Kennedy's desire to take control of the money supply from the reserve. Three weeks after he signs a document to implement this he is murdered.

Bob M
(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:25 - ID#26059)
Amnesty- This episode will go down in history as the biggest financial scam ever..the CBs are doing this out of desperation to prop up the paper assets..but in doing so, they are planting the seeds of their own some level gold will become "cheap" to a much larger group of investors who will begin to nibble on it and buy a little..then the stage will be set for a move of greater magnitude. Once these "new" investors have their feet wet in the gold market and get a little taste..then watch what a market decline will do to the gold price, or an international crisis of some sort..hang on to your horses..the problem now, is that no one wants gold...I cannot believe the pessimism in this chat room, although I fully understand it as I am that way to, if they wipe out the gold bulls in here..who will be left? Maybe we should start talking sports chat in here..or better yet..lets start talking stock picks or forming little investment clubs! Would this be a sign of a bottom?

Old Gold
(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:27 - ID#237143)
Ode to Hepcrap
In the errors of others
You take an infernal glee
Many would be so happy
If you came down with HIV

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:31 - ID#263259)
Dow 20000?
LGB: FYI Dow 20,000 in ten years would require a growth rate within spitting distance of 10%, compounded for that time. The usual growth rate for the Dow has been roughly 7 to 7.5% annually ( counting the ups and downs for a buy and hold strategy ) . Gold has had some pretty big inflations and deflations in the past, but they relate to major events like the fall of Rome, conquest of the Incas, the black plague et cetera. IMHO the 20th century technical revolution is one of thos major crises. In the time it takes for natural growth of the dow to 20,000 the full impact of the precious metals' industrial use will become self evident. Now the problem exists of predicting what will be the equillibrium prices for Au/Ag/Pd/Pt.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:39 - ID#348129)
@Australia has lots of bucks, 1$Billion to Thailand now 1$Billion to Indonesia... Indonesia is in VERY BIG DOO DOO, as the IMF is sending them $23 Billion. Bravo New World Order - The West FOOTS THE BILL AGAIN thanks to our "leaders".........
Australia says offering US$1 bln for Indonesia dea

CANBERRA, Nov 1 ( Reuters ) - Australia said on Saturday it had offered up to US$1 billion towards an international loan package to restore confidence in Indonesia.

International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) managing director Michel Camdessus unveiled the package in Washington on Friday, saying it provided for ``first line'' funds of US$23 billion to bolster the Indonesian economy and help stabilise regional financial markets.

That sum was backed up by the promise of further contributions from individual countries including Australia, Japan, the United States, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong and China.

``Australia's contribution, if required, could be up to $US1 billion,'' Australian Treasurer Peter Costello said in a statement.

``It would be in the form of 'supplemental financing' and would remain at all times conditional upon adherence to the IMF program.

``Australia's contribution would only be drawn down after recourse to IMF financing and would take the form of a loan which would be repaid once the support program came to an end.''

Prime Minister John Howard has been forced to defend Canberra's contribution to the package against domestic criticism led by populist MP Pauline Hanson.

Australia also contributed US$1 billion to a similar IMF-led rescue package for Thailand.

Costello said the success of the rescue package was important for the financial stability of the whole region.

``A return to financial stability and steady economic growth in the South-East Asian region is in Australia's interests because of the contribution that exports make to our own growth and employment opportunities,'' he said.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:46 - ID#170211)
Swiss Alps
Amnesty...I like your theory but how about something simpler...The Swiss yell
"Fire" in the gold arena, and while everyone is pouring out the doors, the
sly Swissy start buying at 308 so as to sell at 600+ before the time they
start to make payments for the victims....a virtual free ride....

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:50 - ID#31868)
Bob M: This old gold thing has been around a long, long time. I will as will millions across the globe continue to hold, and acquire gold. The only reason there is some pessimism at Kitco is because too many think of gold as a commodity. When they finally come to grips with the fact that it is the only real money on the planet, smiles will finally abound.

The the President, the Federal Reserve, the CB's can all go play their criminal games amongst themselves.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 20:52 - ID#348129)
@We in the USA are guilty also, WHY DIDN'T CITIBANK COME OUT AND ADMIT TO THIS EARLIER ??? What a farce...
U.S. bank took Nazi gold as collateral

Copyright  1997
Copyright  1997 Reuters

LOS ANGELES ( November 1, 1997 2:10 p.m. EST ) - A leading U.S. bank knowingly accepted about $30 million worth of looted Nazi gold as collateral for a loan to Spain after the gold had been laundered in Switzerland, documents made public Saturday said.

The 1951 deal between National City Bank, which later became Citibank, and the Spanish had the approval of the U.S. Treasury Department which gave the gold, now worth $300 million, to the Federal Reserve Bank.

The Federal Reserve melted the German bars bearing the Nazi Swastika, and reissued them as U.S. Assay Office bars.

Under rules of the time, neither a U.S. bank nor an individual could own gold bars and the gold had to be held by the Federal Reserve Bank after the U.S. Treasury gave its permission for it to be used as collateral.

The Swiss banking system has come under international criticism for accepting vast quantities of looted Nazi gold during the Second World War and the documents show that, in at least once instance, a U.S. bank and the Federal Reserve were willing to accept it -- although under international law the responsibility for taking the loot rested with the country that originally received it.

The documents, memorandum from the Federal Reserve Bank, were uncovered by a researcher for Swiss television, Gian Trepp, for the program "Rundschau."

The material was turned over to the World Jewish Congress which contacted the Federal Reserve and Citibank, which searched their records and confirmed the transaction.

The WJC praised both Citibank and the Federal Reserve for their cooperative and forthcoming attitude. A Citibank spokesman said he knew of no other similar transaction by the bank.

At issue was a series of loans that the Spanish were seeking from National City Bank in 1951 so they could buy communications equipment from an American company.

According to the documents, the U.S. bank approached the U.S. Treasury to secure a license for the transaction.

One internal Federal Reserve memo said, "Some of the gold in the shipment was identified as having been part of the gold looted by the German authorities during the last war and melted and reissued as 1937 Prussian mint bars."

The memo said, in part, that of "761 bars listed, 503 appear to be clean, 187 were looted from the Netherlands and subsequently placed in the German deposit account in the Swiss National Bank."

The Americans resmelted more than half of the looted bars after checking with the Tripartite Gold Commission, set up by Britain, France and the United States to return looted gold to the countries from which they were taken.

The three countries had reached an agreement with Switzerland in 1946 to return $58 million worth of looted gold although the Swiss never admitted receiving such gold from the Germans. The actual total of looted gold was estimated at between $200 million and $350 million at 1946 prices. The value at today's prices would be between $2 bilion to $3.5 billion.

The Germans looted gold from the national treasuries of the European nations they conquered and from individuals and businesses.

A Federal Reserve Bank memo from March 23, 1950 said that the Treasury Department had informed it that the gold was tainted only in the hands of the first purchaser -- that is Switzerland,in most cases.

WJC Vice President Kalman Sultanik said, "There was a logic to that policy which was understandable. The failure was in not pressing the Swiss to make compensation for all the looted gold it received from Germany. .. But while material liability resides in Switzerland, the moral accountabilty extends to reside in all of us."


(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:02 - ID#348129)
@BOY the news just keeps getting stranger: Indonesia now closing 16 banks, AID IS NOW $33BILLION +, Mexico #2. Where the hell is the money comming from ??? Is it gonna be $43 Billion tomorrow? Someone's gotta sell a lotta Gold! Is the next news item gonna be a Russian suitcase bomb going off ???
Indonesia closes 16 banks after IMF steps in

Copyright  1997
Copyright  1997 The Associated Press

JAKARTA, Indonesia ( November 1, 1997 08:34 a.m. EST ) -- Indonesia shut down 16 insolvent banks Saturday, one of its first tough steps toward economic recovery after international donors stepped in with more than $33 billion in aid.

The bank closings came less than 24 hours after the International Monetary Fund announced what was its second-largest rescue package ever, $23 billion, to help Indonesia through a crisis of confidence that has added to financial volatility across Asia and around the globe.

Singapore and Japan said Saturday their governments would kick in another $5 billion each.

Indonesia is expected to announce more economic reforms in coming days, as more aid pledges roll in.

Finance Minister Mar'ie Muhammad told operators of Indonesia's roughly 220 other banks to regard the 16 bank closings as "a lesson."

"To the public at large, we would like to emphasize that this action by the government is taken in order to revitalize the national banking system," Mar'ie said.

"Therefore, we appeal to all members of society to remain calm."

Some of the liquidated banks have close links to the government of President Suharto.

One, Bank Jakarta, is owned by Suharto's half-brother, Probosutedjo, while Bank Industri is part-owned by Hashim Djojohadikusumo, the brother-in-law of Bank Indonesia governor Soedradjad Djiwandono, who is overseeing the banks' liquidation.

Mar'e said the government would ensure that small depositors with up to $5,700 in savings would get their money back.

Authorities would compensate wealthier depositors and creditors as much as possible from the banks' liquidated assets, he said.

Indonesia sought IMF help last month after unrelenting speculative attacks in currency markets slashed more than a third off the value of the rupiah, undermining investor confidence and setting its stock market into a spin.

The IMF said Friday that it would provide $10 billion to help Indonesia's economy recover, with another $4.5 billion coming from the World Bank, $3.5 billion from the Asian Development Bank and $5 billion from Indonesia's own assets.

With pledges of support from the United States Japan, China, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong and Australia, Indonesia has been offered more than $33 billion in outside finance -- the biggest bailout in IMF history after the $50 billion offered Mexico in 1995.

Indonesia becomes the third Asian nation this year to seek IMF assistance because of currency turmoil. In July, the IMF approved a $1 billion loan for the Philippines and in August put together a $17.5 billion package for Thailand.

The currencies of Malaysia, Hong Kong and Singapore have also come under heavy selling pressure this year.

In exchange for the economic support, Indonesia agreed to a series of economic reforms, including shutting unhealthy banks, reducing food subsidies, removing trade barriers and ending inefficient state monopolies.

Suharto, 76, who has governed the country for 32 years, has tolerated little political dissent, but until earlier this year -- when speculators pounded the Indonesian currency -- he had been able to deliver sustained economic development.

Critics complain that the Indonesian economy is dominated by a small group of his family members and close associates who run state monopolies and other inefficient industries.

-- By GEOFF SPENCER, The Associated Press

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:04 - ID#310407)
DOW History, A&E Special NOW!!!
A & E Special on "Biography", history of the DOW. It re-runs at 9:00 PM PST tonight, so I assume it's starting right now on the East Coast. Quite interesting. Watch how the DOW began, all the Crashes, and our recent spectacular rise.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:04 - ID#31868)
Simple answer to worldwide gold and silver consumption.

IF AMERICANS would DEMAND their Constitutional right's, the government has no choice but to adhere to the LAW. Coined money. It's the law, end of story.

The government is a bloated, bankrupt entity. Politicians are getting paid, they spend illegal paper money manufactured by an illegal private entity.
The reserve.

Demand your Constitutional rights under the law.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:06 - ID#255190)
Donald@goldman 15:15 reply

Great reply. Basicly the short term flux is not the main concern unless day trading. If you can't get it then you can't get it. Regardless of the "price". If ya got it ya got it. Got it?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:08 - ID#31868)
LGB: It's not running on A&E now. Maybe schedules are different or certain zones carry different channels?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:09 - ID#403159)
Old gold is about to fold
The old fart is that old
So now you have been told
This is how old farts go

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:09 - ID#310407)
@ Ron, Aliens & Gold
Ron, re your 19:46. Me make fun? I think it might be the best case for Gold presented on Kitco so far!!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:11 - ID#310407)
@ Tolerant, A&E Special
Yes, possible different schedules in different zones. It runs in 3 hours at 9:00 PST here on the West coast. Not sure when it would run on East Coast but thought perhaps it would be now due to 3 hr. time shift.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:13 - ID#31868)
LGB: It ran at 6p.m. podge. I will check the guide and see if it reruns later this evening. Thanks.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:16 - ID#31868)
LGB: Nope, didn't run. Go figure, we get Boris Karloff biography.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:18 - ID#310407)
@ Miro, Moving on Asian markets
Now THERE's a move I respect! Especially since I too plan to move a portion ( 10% ) of my 401K into the Fidelity emerging markets fund on Monday. First medium term move out of cash that I'll be making with the 401 since I sold out Magellan & Blue Chip Growth back in August.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:21 - ID#310407)
@ Tolerant1, DOW Biography
What time zone are you? Try it again in 2 1/2 hours. ( Or whenever their next listed Biography episode airs ) We had Boris earlier today also! Then last hour they ran the DOW Biography which I assume is the ione they will re-run at 9:00 PST. ( Though I'm not certain, planning to record it if it does run )

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:23 - ID#255190)
@NewBile re: purchases

Ask about the various price breaks for quanity up front. There is a certain level at which the shop should give you the wholesale rate. This indicates they recognize you are a repeat customer and will buy enough to rate their attention to retain you as such.

Quantities of 10 oz in gold is easier for them to handle without breaking a container. Quantities of 20 in silver ditto. Silver also packaged in 500 boxes. This at spot + $1.38 buy and spot + $1.28 to buy back ( $0.10 spread ) .

Find out if you have to pay sales tax or is it considered investment vs retail sale. Could be a minimum to qualify for tax free sale. This varies by state. Mail order houses may provide saving. Make sure you relate to them you will be a long term customer if they treat you well. Relate your target purchase $$. Kitco is competitive. but there are some internet suppliers who are obviously over priced.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:24 - ID#255190)
@David Re 17:52 post

Thank you for that post. Very helpful to see adifferent perspective. Include energy and grains in triumverate.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:25 - ID#348169)
Louis,Louis,Louis, Back by Popular Request!
Due to the fact that our historical Kitco records are temporarily inaccessible, and that someone has incorrectly misquoted my former post, I will reprint the gist of it, on this slow Sat. night, for the newbies and the curious.
First of all, I had mentioned last Spring that when the time came that I felt that the gold market was at it's absolute bottom I would post a quote from the time of Louis 16th of France. I became impatient to
post the famous quote, and so when I finally did, I did so with the statement that although the final absolute bottom may not already have been reached, I felt that we were CLOSE ENOUGH to that point that it was indeed the time to start accumulating. The price ( in percentage terms ) was very close to where it is now, and I still stand by what I said then. NOW IS THE TIME TO BEGIN ACCUMULATING THE PHYSICAL METAL. ( Buy half Silver, half Gold in dollar terms acceptable to your budget, dollar cost average by buying a little, ( or a lot! ) , each month ) .

Franklin Speaks to His Fellows
During the time of the American Revolutionary War, in the reign of the ponderous Louis XVI of France, one Benjamin Franklin was sent as an emissary to Paris along with a couple of fellow ambassadors, Arthur Lee, Ralph Izard and ( eventually ) John Adams.
The following conversation, as recorded in the novel "Waffen fur Amerika", ( Arms for America ) , by Lion Feuchtwanger, ( translated from the German by Moray Firth ) , may or may not have really taken place; I leave that for the reader to decide!
BTW - One of the main missions that the revolutionary Congress had sent these men over to France to accomplish was to petition ( read: BEG ) the French Government ( read: KING ) for money ( read: GOLD ) . Enough history Mooney, get on with the storey!

"When John Adams had finished speaking there was a slight pause while Franklin gazed at the picture of General Washington, with whom he knew himself to be of one mind, and then at his colleagues who were with him in the flesh and with whom he found it so difficult to come to an understanding. "Perhaps you will permit me," he said, "to relate a little storey. A man was sitting on the Pont-Neuf a short time ago offering gold coins for sale, louis d'or both old and new, for which he asked two livres apiece, in other words a tenth of their value. Many of the passers-by stopped to listen, they examined the coins, which had the authentic ring, yet the man did not succeed in selling a solitary one of his louis d'or. Not a single purchaser could be found who was willing to risk a couple of livres in order to acquire a whole louis."
"Well," asked Ralph Izard in a depreciating tone, "what about it?"
"The louis d'or were genuine," replied Franklin. "It was all part of a bet. The man won his wager, for he had asserted that people are so suspicious by nature that they will not even accept real gold if it is offered them cheaply."

In the year 1997, unfortunately, I have to amend Mr. Franklin's statement to read: "People are apparently so STUPID and GULLIBLE by nature that they will not even BUY real gold, even if it is offered them cheaply." TM - Stephen Mooney 1997.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:27 - ID#255190)

Everything is poised for another fantastic year. Great rowth. Low inflation. Solid fundimentals. We recommend investment in Asia Growth Funds.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:28 - ID#255190)

Some concerns were raised in the Thai revaluation but Asia is strong and on good footing. Solid fundimentals and growth without inflation.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:29 - ID#348129)
ALLEN you forgot one: Rock solid Banking System....

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:32 - ID#255190)

We are perplexed by the asian crisis which has reduced this regions growth and seen most markets down 30 - 40 %.Currencies have been devalued and more trouble lies ahead. Banks have yet to assess the extent of damaage to their outstanding debt commitments. Imports into the region will be severely reduced. Japan on the verge of significant reduction in profits.

Only months ago this region was considered healthy and the fundimentals continue to look strong.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:32 - ID#335190)
Gold Reserve Hearings 1934 @ Senate Committe on Banking and Currency
The Gold Reserve Hearings 1934:
Senator Robert L. Owen, longtime critic of the Federal Reserve System. made the following statement:
"The people did not know the Federal Reserve Banks were organized for profit-making. They were intended to stabilize the credit and currency supply of the country. That end has not been accomplished. Indeed, there has been the most remarkable variation in the purchasing power of money since the System went into effect. The Federal Reserve men are chosen by the big banks, through discreet little campaigns, and they naturally follow the ideals which are portrayed to them as the soundest from a financial point of view."

The Banking Act of 1933 also legislated that all earnings of the Federal Reserve Banks must by law go to the banks themselves. At last the provision in the Act that the Government share in the profits was gotten rid of. It had never been observed, and the increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to 45 billion dollars in 1949 went entirely to the private stockholders of the banks.

At The Gold Reserve Hearings, Benjamin Anderson, economist for the Chase National Bank of New York, said:
"At the moment, 1934, we have 900 million dollars excess reserves. In 1924, with increased reserves of 300 million, you got some three or four billion in bank expansion of credit very quickly. That extra money was put out by the Federal Reserve Banks in 1924 through buying government securities and was the cause of the rapid expansion of bank credit. The banks continued to get excess reserves because more gold came in, and because, whenever there was a slackening, the Federal Reserve people would put out some more. They held back a bit in 1926. Things firmed up a bit that year. And then in 1927 they put out less than 300 million additional reserves, set the wild stock market going, and that led us right into the smash of 1929."

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:35 - ID#255190)

The US economy is healthy and with low inflation and good demand will not be hurt significantly by the crisis in asia. US economic fundimentals are strong ...

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:35 - ID#60253)
Do you think that value has been lost by
holding physical gold all these years?
If the answer is yes, you are wrong!
I tell you now, its all in your perception
of what is value and what is real.
Gold has been increasing in value since
the early 90s and doing it at a rate much
higher than any other investment. Cannot
see this? Hear me now, what the wealthy
and powerful know:
real value does not have to always
be stated or converted
thruout time. It need only be priced
once during the experience of life, that
will be much more than enough!

Worldwide the oil business is still conducted in
dollars. But, an interesting side show is now
taking place that will change the way we think
about gold and oil!
If you wanted to devalue the US$ against other
currencies what would be the best way to do it
without LOWERING interest rates in the USA?
Perhaps you want to cool off an over active stock
market without raising rates ?
Could a smart CB Chairman kill two birds with
one stone ?

The US$ could be effectively lowered against most
of the leading currencies by slowly taking it off the
oil standard! This could be done by introducing
a new concept to the world:
create a mechanism whereby a form of CB
paper gold could be traded for oil as a side
premium. So, instead of them taking physical gold
off the market at its now MAINTAINED
commodity price, let them take gray paper
CB gold priced at its true value in US$ for oil.

You see, this could solve the problem of supply
that is also the problem for LBMA!
We now have a parallel market with gold
trading at its commodity value on the physical market
while being held for its oil value by major players.

You dont think this is true?
Think now, as the answer becomes clear:
Who is on the other side of the long gold deals that
contango the metal far above its current commodity
price while freezing out most small private buyers?
Why is gold being slowly transformed into a new
kind of hybrid asset, off traded an for oil value of many
thousands of dollars per oz.?

One more thing, Big trader left HK some time ago
and is now in a waiting game. No posts are from
him. The post was not me on this date:
Date: Fri Oct 31 1997 16:09
ANOTHER ( thoughts ) ID#256321:

More later

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:36 - ID#255190)
Feeling better now.

I'm so glad to hear that our economy is strong with low inflation and good fundimentals, aren't you?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:50 - ID#20779)


(Sat Nov 01 1997 21:59 - ID#206358)

The monsoon start few days back,a bit late this year!
To the citizen around South east asia,we had been suffered the most "financial DISASTER'.Personally ,i feel THAILAND still in very big troubles,looks falling in to black hole.The politic,currency just slipped eveerydays,these effected to others neighbours countries...!The thais now have to face many many tasks ahead!
Indonesia,too!reach out for imf last week!Not sure about the directions of billions dollars will go...refer to AMNESTY POST BELOW.Malaysia,very in to trobles some too!due to many influnced by the powerful sturborn of inner politic,policy,..many unsolved problems.Lots of public coms in bad
deficit..bad business..cosumer power slow down..whatever u retail/wholesale business dropped about 80% last two months.
Heard that many citizen ( thai,indo,mal ) buy up some stronger currencies,such as pound,dollars and marks.The gold bars seems lost the flying colour this time... ( any comments? ) !Even the banks sectors,the encouragements looked weak too!since ,all the money invest into the stock market,SUCK THEM ALL!Cos few years back,many newly public com listed for higher return,...these time all the investors lost the ground badly.

Thai BHATS looked sinking further ..last ex rate was 40.20 to 1 dollars.These situation will drift the stock too.And again,...DOMINO EFFECT to the asean friends!NEVER ENDING STORY.......!?



Southern man
(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:01 - ID#289175)


HWhaat Mr. Another is tryin ta say for those of you a little dense in the head, i.e, Speed, etc, is simply that:

"Gold is not going to fade away and just become another useful metal."

Now that's not so hard to understand, is it?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:11 - ID#333405)
The Secret Financial Network Behind "Wizard" George Soros - Part 1 of 2

By: William Engdahl

Posted by: stefan lemieszewski, 12 Nov 1996 on Internet

" Corrupt elites prosper at the people's expense with the aid of the
IMF, World Bank and 'shock therapy' policies of Western advisors
under the guise of free-trade or democratic or market-reforms."

EIR Investigation
Executive Intelligence Review ( EIR ) , November 1, 1996


The dossier that follows is based upon a report released on Oct. 1 by EIR's
bureau in Wiesbaden, Germany, titled "A Profile of Mega-Speculator George
Soros." Research was contributed by Mark Burdman, Elisabeth Hellenbroich,
Paolo Raimondi, and Scott Thompson.

Time magazine has characterized financier George Soros as a "modern-day
Robin Hood," who robs from the rich to give to the poor countries of eastern
Europe and Russia. It claimed that Soros makes huge financial gains by
speculating against western central banks, in order to use his profits to help the
emerging post-communist economies of Eastern Europe and former Soviet
Union, to assist them to create what he calls an "Open Society." The Time
statement is entirely accurate in the first part, and entirely inaccurate in the
second. He robs from rich western countries, and uses his profits to rob even
more savagely from the East, under the cloak of "philanthropy." His goal is to
loot wherever and however he can. Soros has been called the master
manipulator of "hit-and-run capitalism."

As we shall see, what Soros means by "open," is a society that allows him and
his financial predator friends to loot the resources and precious assets of
former Warsaw Pact economies. By bringing people like Jeffrey Sachs or
Sweden's Anders Aslund and their economic shock therapy into these
economies, Soros lays the groundwork for buying up the assets of whole
regions of the world at dirt-cheap prices.

The man who broke the Bank of England?

An examination of Soros' secretive financial network is vital to understand the
true dimension of the "Soros problem" in Eastern Europe and other nations.

Following the crisis of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism of September
1992, when the Bank of England was forced to abandon efforts to stabilize the
pound sterling, a little-known financial figure emerged from the shadows, to
boast that he had personally made over $1 billion in speculation against the
British pound. The speculator was the Hungarian-born George Soros, who
spent the war in Hungary under false papers working for the Nazi government,
identifying and expropriating the property of wealthy fellow Jews. Soros left
Hungary after the war, and established American citizenship after some years
in London. Today, Soros is based in New York, but that tells little, if anything,
of who and what he is.

Following his impressive claims to possession of a "Midas touch," Soros has
let his name be publicly used in a blatant attempt to influence world financial
markets---an out-of-character act for most financial investors, who prefer to
take advantage of situations not yet discovered by rivals, and keep them
secret. Soros the financier is as much a political animal, as a financial

Soros proclaimed in March 1993, with great publicity, that the price of gold
was about to rise sharply; he said that he had just gotten "inside information"
that China was about to buy huge sums of gold for its booming economy.
Soros was able to trigger a rush into buying gold, which caused prices to rise
more than 20% over four months, to the highest level since 1991. Typically for
Soros, once the fools rushed in to push prices higher, Soros and his friend Sir
James Goldsmith secretly began selling their gold at a huge profit.

Then, in early June 1993, Soros proclaimed his intent to force a sell-off in
German government bonds in favor of the French, in an open letter to London
Times Financial Editor Anatole Kaletsky, in which Soros proclaimed, "Down
with the D-Mark!" Soros has at various times attacked the currencies of
Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Mexico, coming into newly opened
financial markets which have little experience with foreign investors, let alone
ones with large funds like Soros. Soros begins buying stocks or bonds in the
local market, leading others to naively suppose that he knows something they
do not. As with gold, when the smaller investors begin to follow Soros, driving
prices of stocks or whatever higher, Soros begins to sell to the eager new
buyers, cashing in his 40% or 100% profits, then exiting the market, and often,
the entire country, to seek another target for his speculation. This technique
gave rise to the term "hit and run." What Soros always leaves behind, is a
collapsed local market and financial ruin of national investors.

The secret of the Quantum Fund NV

Soros is the visible side of a vast and nasty secret network of private financial
interests, controlled by the leading aristocratic and royal families of Europe,
centered in the British House of Windsor. This network, called by its members
the Club of Isles, was built upon the wreckage of the British Empire after
World War II.

Rather than use the powers of the state to achieve their geopolitical goals, a
secret cross-linked holding of private financial interests, tied to the old
aristocratic oligarchy of western Europe, was developed. It was in many ways
modeled on the 17th-century British and Dutch East India Companies. The
heart of this Club of the Isles is the financial center of the old British Empire,
the City of London. Soros is one of what in medieval days were called
Hofjuden, the "Court Jews," who were deployed by the aristocratic families.

The most important of such "Jews who are not Jews," are the Rothschilds,
who launched Soros's career. They are members of the Club of the Isles and
retainers of the British royal family. This has been true since Amschel
Rothschild sold the British Hessian troops to fight against George Washington
during the American Revolution.

Soros is American only in his passport. He is a global financial operator, who
happens to be in New York, simply because "that's where the money is," as
the bank robber Willy Sutton once quipped, when asked why he always
robbed banks. Soros speculates in world financial markets through his
offshore company, Quantum Fund NV, a private investment fund, or "hedge
fund." His hedge fund reportedly manages some $11-14 billion of funds on
behalf of its clients, or investors---one of the most prominent of whom is,
according to Soros, Britain's Queen Elizabeth, the wealthiest person in

The Quantum Fund is registered in the tax haven of the Netherlands Antilles, in
the Caribbean. This is to avoid paying taxes, as well as to hide the true nature
of his investors and what he does with their money.

In order to avoid U.S. government supervision of his financial activities,
something normal U.S.-based investment funds must by law agree to in order
to operate, Soros moved his legal headquarters to the Caribbean tax haven of
Curacao. The Netherlands Antilles has repeatedly been cited by the Task
Force on Money Laundering of the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development ( OECD ) as one of the world's most important centers for
laundering illegal proceeds of the Latin American cocaine and other drug
traffic. It is a possession of the Netherlands.

Soros has taken care that the none of the 99 individual investors who
participate in his various funds is an American national. By U.S. securities law,
a hedge fund is limited to no more than 99 highly wealthy individuals, so-called
"sophisticated investors." By structuring his investment company as an offshore
hedge fund, Soros avoids public scrutiny.

Soros himself is not even on the board of Quantum Fund. Instead, for legal
reasons, he serves the Quantum Fund as official "investment adviser," through
another company, Soros Fund Management, of New York City. If any
demand were to be made of Soros to reveal the details of Quantum Fund's
operations, he is able to claim he is "merely its investment adviser." Any
competent police investigator looking at the complex legal structure of Soros's
businesses would conclude that there is prima facie evidence of either vast
money laundering of illicit funds, or massive illegal tax evasion. Both may be

To make it impossible for U.S. tax authorities or other officials to look into the
financial dealings of his web of businesses, the board of directors of Quantum
Fund NV also includes no American citizens. His directors are Swiss, Italian,
and British financiers.

George Soros is part of a tightly knit financial mafia---"mafia," in the sense of a
closed masonic-like fraternity of families pursuing common aims. Anyone who
dares to criticize Soros or any of his associates, is immediately hit with the
charge of being "anti-Semitic"----a criticism which often silences or intimidates
genuine critics of Soros's unscrupulous operations. The Anti-Defamation
League of B'nai B'rith considers it a top priority to "protect" Soros from the
charges of "anti-Semites" in Hungary and elsewhere in Central Europe,
according to ADL National Director Abraham Foxman. The ADL's record of
service to the British oligarchy has been amply documented by EIR ( e.g. The
Ugly Truth About the Anti-Defamation League [Washington, D.C., Executive
Intelligence Review: 1992] ) .

According to knowledgeable U.S. and European investigators, Soros's circle
includes indicted metals and commodity speculator and fugitive Marc Rich of
Zug, Switzerland and Tel Aviv; secretive Israeli arms and commodity dealer
Shaul Eisenberg, and "Dirty Rafi" Eytan, both linked to the financial side of the
Israeli Mossad; and, the family of Jacob Lord Rothschild.

Understandably, Soros and the Rothschild interests prefer to keep their
connection hidden far from public view, so as to obscure the well-connected
friends Soros enjoys in the City of London, the British Foreign Office, Israel,
and the U.S. financial establishment. The myth, therefore, has been created,
that Soros is a lone financial investment "genius" who, through his sheer
personal brilliance in detecting shifts in markets, has become one of the world's
most successful speculators. According to those who have done business with
him, Soros never makes a major investment move without sensitive insider

On the board of directors of Soros's Quantum Fund N.V. is Richard Katz, a
Rothschild man who is also on the board of the London N.M. Rothschild and
Sons merchant bank, and the head of Rothschild Italia S.p.A. of Milan.
Another Rothschild family link to Soros's Quantum Fund is Quantum board
member Nils O. Taube, the partner of the London investment group St. James
Place Capital, whose major partner is Lord Rothschild. London Times
columnist Lord William Rees-Mogg is also on the board of Rothschild's St.
James Place Capital.

A frequent business partner of Soros in various speculative deals, including in
the 1993 gold manipulation, although not on the Quantum Fund directly, is the
Anglo-French speculator Sir James Goldsmith, a cousin of the Rothschild

From the very first days when Soros created his own investment fund in 1969,
he owed his success to his relation to the Rothschild family banking network.
Soros worked in New York in the 1960s for a small private bank close to the
Rothschilds, Arnhold & S. Bleichroeder, Inc., a banking family which
represented Rothschild interests in Germany during Bismarck's time. To this
day, A. & S. Bleichroeder, Inc. remains the Principal Custodian, along with
Citibank, of funds of Soros's Quantum Fund. George C. Karlweiss, of
Edmond de Rothschild's Switzerland-based Banque Privee SA in Lugano, as
well as of the scandal-tainted Rothschild Bank AG of Zurich, gave Soros
financial backing. Karlweiss provided some of the vital initial capital and
investors for Soros's Quantum Fund.

Union Banque Privee and the 'Swiss

Another member of the board of Soros's Quantum Fund is the head of one of
the most controversial Swiss private banks, Edgar de Picciotto, who has been
called "one of the cleverest bankers in Geneva"---and is one of the most
scandal-tainted. De Picciotto, from an old Portuguese Jewish trading family,
who was born in Lebanon, is head of the Geneva private bank CBI-TDB
Union Bancaire Privee, a major player in the gold and offshore hedge funds
business. Hedge funds have been identified by international police agencies as
the fastest-growing outlet for illegal money laundering today.

De Picciotto is a longtime friend and business associate of banker Edmond
Safra, also born in Lebanon, whose family came from Aleppo, Syria, and who
now controls the Republic Bank of New York. Republic Bank has been
identified in U.S. investigations into Russian organized crime, as the bank
involved in transferring billions of U.S. Federal Reserve notes from New York
to organized crime-controlled Moscow banks, on behalf of Russian organized
crime figures. Safra is under investigation by U.S. and Swiss authorities for
laundering Turkish and Columbian drug money.

In 1990, Safra's Trade Development Bank ( TDB ) of Geneva was merged
with de Picciotto's CBI to create the CBI-TDB Union Banque Privee. The
details of the merger are shrouded in secrecy to this day. As part of the deal,
de Picciotto became a board member of American Express Bank
( Switzerland ) SA of Geneva, and two American Express Bank of New York
executives sit on the board of de Picciotto's Union Banque Privee. Safra had
sold his Trade Development Bank to American Express, Inc. in the 1980s.
Henry Kissinger sits on the board of American Express, Inc., which has
repeatedly been implicated in international money-laundering scandals.

De Picciotto's start as a Geneva banker came from Nicholas Baring of the
London Barings Bank, who tapped de Picciotto to run the bank's secret Swiss
bank business. Barings has for centuries been private banker to the British
royal family, and since the bank's collapse in March 1995, has been
overhauled by the Dutch ING Bank, which is reported to be a major
money-laundering institution.

De Picciotto is also a longtime business partner of Venetian businessman Carlo
De Benedetti, who recently was forced to resign as head of Olivetti Corp.
Both persons sit on the board of the Societe Financiere de Geneve investment
holding company in Geneva. De Benedetti is under investigation in Italy for
suspicion of triggering the collapse of Italy's Banco Ambrosiano in the early
1980s.The head of that bank, Roberto Calvi, was later found hanging from the
London Blackfriar's Bridge, in what police believe was a masonic ritual

De Picciotto and his Union Banque Privee have been implicated in numerous
drug and illegal money-laundering operations. In November 1994, U.S.
federal agents arrested a senior official of de Picciotto's Geneva bank,
Jean-Jacques Handali, along with two other UBP officials, on charges of
leading a multimillion-dollar drug-money-laundering ring. According to the
U.S. Attorney's Office in Miami, Handali and Union Banque Privee were the
"Swiss connection" in an international drug-money-laundering ring tied to
Colombian and Turkish cocaine and heroin organizations. A close business
and political associate of de Picciotto is a mysterious arm dealer, Helmut
Raiser, who is linked in business dealings with reputed Russian organized
crime kingpin Grigori Luchansky, who controls the Russian and Swiss holding
company Nordex Group.

Another director of Soros's Quantum Fund is Isodoro Albertini, owner of the
Milan stock brokerage firm Albertini and Co. Beat Notz of the Geneva
Banque Worms is another private banker on the board of Soros's Quantum
Fund, as is Alberto Foglia, who is chief of the Lugano, Switzerland Banca del
Ceresio. Lugano, just across the Swiss border from Milan, is notorious as the
financial secret bank haven for Italian organized crime families, including the
heroin mafia behind the 1980s "Pizza Connection" case. The Banca del
Ceresio has been one of the secret Swiss banks identified in the recent Italian
political corruption scandals as the repository of bribe funds of several Italian
politicians now in prison.

The sponsorship of the Rothschilds

Soros's relation to the Rothschild finance circle represents no ordinary or
casual banking connection. It goes a long way to explain the extraordinary
success of a mere private speculator, and Soros's uncanny ability to "gamble
right" so many times in such high-risk markets. Soros has access to the "insider
track" in some of the most important government and private channels in the

Since World War II, the Rothschild family, at the heart of the financial
apparatus of the Club of the Isles, has gone to great lengths to create a public
myth about its own insignificance. The family has spent significant sums
cultivating a public image as a family of wealthy, but quiet, "gentlemen," some
of whom prefer to cultivate fine French wines, some of whom are devoted to

Since British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour wrote his famous November
1917 letter to Lord Rothschild, expressing official British government backing
for establishment of a Palestinian national home for the Jewish people, the
Rothschilds were intimately involved in the creation of Israel. But behind their
public facade of a family donating money for projects such as planting trees in
the deserts of Israel, N.M. Rothschild of London is at the center of various
intelligence operations, and more than once has been linked to the more
unsavory elements of international organized crime. The family prefers to keep
such links at arm's length, and away from its London headquarters, via its
lesser-known outposts such as their Zurich Rothschild Bank AG and
Rothschild Italia of Milan, the bank of Soros partner Richard Katz.

N.M. Rothschild is considered by City of London sources to be one of the
most influential parts of the British intelligence establishment, tied to the
Thatcher "free market" wing of the Tory Party. Rothschild and Sons made
huge sums managing for Thatcher the privatization of billions of dollars of
British state industry holdings during the 1980s, and today, for John Major's
government. Rothschilds is also at the very heart of the world gold trade, being
the bank at which twice daily the London Gold Fix is struck by a group of the
five most influential gold trade banks. Gold constitutes a major part of the
economy of drug dealings globally.

N.M. Rothschild and Sons is also implicated in some of the filthiest
drugs-for-weapons secret intelligence operations. Because it is connected to
the highest levels of the British intelligence establishment, Rothschilds managed
to evade any prominent mention of its complicity in one of the more sordid
black covert intelligence networks, that of the Bank of Credit and Commerce
International ( BCCI ) . Rothschilds was at the center of the international web of
money-laundering banks used during the 1970s and 1980s by Britain's MI-6
and the networks of Col. Oliver North and George Bush, to finance such
projects as the Nicaraguan Contras.

On June 8, 1993 the chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives'
Committee on Banking, Rep. Henry Gonzalez ( D-Tex. ) , made a speech
charging that the U.S. government, under the previous Bush and Reagan
administrations, had systematically refused to prosecute the BCCI, and that
the Department of Justice had repeatedly refused to cooperate with
Congressional investigations of both the BCCI scandal and what Gonzalez
claims is the closely related scandal of the Atlanta, Georgia Banca Nationale
del Lavoro, which was alleged to have secured billions in loans from the Bush
administration to Saddam Hussein, just prior to the Gulf War of 1990-91.

Gonzalez charged that the Bush administration had "a Justice Department that I
say, and I repeat, has been the most corrupt, most unbelievably corrupt justice
system that I have seen in the 32 years I have been in the Congress."

The BCCI violated countless laws, including laundering drug money, financing
illegal arms traffic, and falsifying bank records. In July 1991, New York
District Attorney Robert Morgenthau announced a grand jury indictment
against BCCI, charging it with having committed "the largest bank fraud in
world financial history. BCCI operated as a corrupt criminal organization
throughout its entire 19-year history."

The BCCI had links directly into the Bush White House. Saudi Sheik Kamal
Adham, a BCCI director and former head of Saudi Arabian intelligence when
George Bush was head of the CIA, was one of the BCCI shareholders
indicted in the United States. Days after his indictment, former top Bush White
House aide Edward Rogers went to Saudi Arabia as a private citizen to sign a
contract to represent Sheikh Adham in the United States.

--- continued in part 2 ---

Southern Man
(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:19 - ID#289175)
Whale Jin, as I see it, you Asians tain't out of the woods yet. 23 billion thrown at the situation is sort of like pissin on a raging forest fire. Now, some may say that 20 billion helped out the Mexicans, but as I see it, they tain't out o' the woods yet either. Seems that theys been spreadin it around to make it look as if its done sumptin. But it sorta like plasterin wall poaper over a rotted out wall. Governments keep tryin to patch things up, but only prolonging and exascerbatin the sitchuation. The markets need to clean out all the bad debt without government interference for the good of the markets. It won't be a perty sight to see, thats fer sher!

Well, I spose wheel see something unexpected come down the pike to turn these markets every which way but up. Spect its time fer buyin some gold and silver. Ive got plenty hidden around my place. Course I live out in the country near the woods.

As fer ever turnin it over to billy clinton when the time arises of financial calamity - wheel you can sher foget that notion! I never had much hankerin fo the government. I believe that Big Governement doesnt solve the problems cuz they is the Problem! NO WAY would I ever give MY GOLD UP to a bunch of rekless spendthrifts who lie, cheart and still from the Good American citizens. I'm a TRUE BLOODED AMERICAN and like my forefathers - I'll Fight to the end for the cause of justice for all.

Amen brothers

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:30 - ID#256321)
I.D.#60253 is not me. Please disregard his thoughts. Also Big Trader is still in HK and is not leaving anytime soon.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:38 - ID#335190)
More Notes @ I hope it is related to GOLD.
Before the House Banking and Currency Committee on June 24, 1941, Governor Marriner Eccles said: "Money is created out of the right to issue credit-money"

Governor Marriner Eccles said, at the Silver Hearings of 1939:
"When you sell bonds on the open market, you extinguish reserves."

Extinguishing reserves means wiping out a basis for money and credit issue, or, tightening up on money and credit, a condition which is usually even more favorable to bankers than the creation of money. Calling in or destroying money gives the banker immediate and unlimited control of the financial situation, since he is the only one with money and the only one with the power to issue money in a time of money shortage.

The money panics of 1873, 1893, 1920-21, and 1929-31, were characterized by a drawing in of the circulating medium. In economical terms, this does not sound like such terrible thing, but when it means that people do not have money to pay their rent or buy food, and when it means that an employer has to lay off three-fouths of his help because he cannot borrow the money to pay them, the enormous guilt of the bankers and the long record of suffering and misery for which they are responsible would suggest that no punishment might be too severe for their crimes against their fellowmen.

On September 30 1940, Governor Eccles said:
"If there were no debts in our money system, there would be no money"

This is an accurate statement about our money system. Instead of money being created by the production of the people, the annual increase in goods and services, it is created by the bankers out of the debts of the people. Because it is inadequate, it is subject to great fluctuations and is basically unstable. These fluctuations are also a source of great profit. For that reason, the Federal Reserve Board has consistently opposed any legislation which attempts to stabilize the monetary system.

Its position has been set forth definitively in Chairman Eccles' letter to Senator Wagner on March 09 1939, and the Memorandum issued by the Board on March 13 1939. Chairman Eccles wrote that:
" are advised that the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System does not favor the enactment of Senate Bill No. 31, a bill to amend the Federal Reserve Act, or any other legislation of this general character."

The Memorandum of the Board stated, in its "Memorandum on Proposals to maintain prices at fixed levels": " The Board of Governors opposes any bill which proposes a stable price level, on the grounds that prices do not depend primarily on the price or cost of money; that the Board's control over money cannot be made complete; and that steady average prices, even if obtainable by official action, would not insure lasting prosperity."

Yet William McChesney Martin, the Chairman of the Board of Governors in 1952, said before the Subcommittee on Debt Control, the Patman Committee, on March 10 1952 that "One of the fundamental purposes of the Federal Reserve Act is to protect the value of the dollar." Senator Flanders questioned him: "Is that specifically stated in the original legislation setting up the Federal Reserve System?" "No, replied Mr. Martin, "but it is inherent in the entire legislative history and in the surrounding circumstances." Senator Robert L. Owen has told us how it was taken out of the original legislation against his will, and that the Board of Governors has opposed such legislation. Apparently Mr. Martin does not know this.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:42 - ID#253183)
A multi personality schmuck.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:43 - ID#390249)
Bank Closures
I can't help but think that the bank liquidations in Indonesia will cause panic in other southeast Asian countries. Jin, do you see any spillover in this? If I were a business owner in Thailand or Malaysia with deposits over $5,000 in a bank, I'd be the first in line on Monday to get my money out after the Indonesian announcement. This IMF move in Indonesia doesn't make sense to me. I think we're going to see more panic as a result

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:43 - ID#60253)
Asia put an end to a sweet deal for the
West! From the early 90s it was working
very well. But now:

The problem with gold physical supply is
very real indeed! But, there is no way that the
CBs will continue to sell off an asset for
its commodity price that has many times
more value as money! The talk of sales
will continue for years but the real act
may come to a close very soon as they
try to take the LBMA off the supply
hook by offering gray paper deals.

If they are not buying it, then:

The falling markets worldwide are
an early warning that the gold for oil deals
are coming undone! As the big players are
now heading for the exits in anticipation of
exploding oil prices, the selling pressure from
the CBs will quickly come off gold.
The end of a parallel gold market pricing
structure will leave many, many players holding
nothing at all!
The third world markets are the first to go
as their currencies are crushed time and time
again. Europe will be next, closely followed
by the USA!

As for the US$ and T- bills held overseas,
they dont really exist!

more later

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:48 - ID#316409)
@ Miles re Soros
Miles re your Soros post. Seems like Soros & the Rothschilds et al conspirators everywhere, have the most "visible" conspiracy network ever known to man. These guy's must REALLY be geniouses! I mean who else could pull off all these conspiratorial rip offs with behind the scenes secret plans, time after time, year afyer year, when so much has been written about them exposing their "secret plans"!! Here the whole world has been privvy to what they're up to in one published report after another for years on end, and yet they PERSIST in pulling off genious secret conspiracies with never ending aplomb right under all our noses. Amazing feat! Maybe Soros is the Antichrist? It's take supernatural power to fool all the people all the time for so many decades on end don't you think?

Glad a few folks like you here on Kitco have that "Inside info" on all these secret conspiracies so the rest of us can plan accordingly. Those craft Jews, Soros Rothschild & all their secret pals. Always trying to take over world finance. Too bad Hitler didn't succeed in putting an end to it eh Miles?

Sign me, LGB, NOT trying to be funny with this satire, but totally disgusted and nauseated that we have to read such crap here on Kitco as has already been floating around for decades. White sheets and burning crosses are less offensive as far as I'm concerned.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:50 - ID#251306)
Malaysasia is going to get a IMF bail out also

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:54 - ID#338126)
Another, I always like reading your posts BUT they have always been followed by a sharp drop in gold

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:56 - ID#316409)
@ *Mooney
Mooney we're so glad that you, who complains ceaselessly about wasted bandwidth on Kitco, have now been kind enough to repost a former 500+ post of your great wisdom. Why don't you continue in this vain ( I mean vein ) , and repost ALL your former words of wisdom from days past? That way you can crowd out NEW posts of such nonsense as Marla Maples and such, and instead we can just re-read everything you've ever written or posted here? Looking forward to having an "All Mooney" site here real soon.


(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:57 - ID#187218)
LGB: good stuff!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:57 - ID#225199)
The Bushes GEO BARB etc. are clarions for YOU KNOW WHO.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 22:57 - ID#333405)
SpudMaster - re your 12.05 post. Here in Adelaide Australia, Telstra ( Telecom ) have introduced new phone boxes into which you load your new smart card, dial a number and it gets charged up with e bucks. Department of Social Security is presently organising that pensioners and welfare recipients will be able to get their " pay " via the phone/smart card and then walk into the larger department stores and buy stuff. Also consider that about 30% of people here are on some sort of welfare. My thoughts
are that we are very quickly entering into the age of e-money which is the precurser to the New world Order or whatever you want to call it. The fact is that there are certain power elites who'se wish it is to control money and thence the people that use it ( all of us ) . Although not conspiratorial by nature, it is very hard for me to ignore the signs in our everyday life. Look out for these words when used by our elected politicians.
Sustainable development - Erlich/Sagan and the UN elite all reckon that there are about a 150 million more Americans than there should be to keep " Mother Earth/ Gaia " from going bad on us. Hope you're not one of the 150 million that have to go to make way for the Wilderness corridors that the UN want to criss cross your lovely country. Euthanasia is the thin edge of the wedge. Look out for people like Maurice Strong / Rio Eco fest man. He is a dangerous bit of work. Look out for unelected politicians deciding what's good for you. Look out for Kyoto in December.
Challenge the politicians on global warming/El Nino etc. There are loads of other things to consider, but it's 2.20 Sunday afternoon in beautiful Adelaide. and then zoom out.
Anyway is GOLD going to be any sort of currency in the NWO?

Southern Man
(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:01 - ID#289175)

Now JJ - thems strong and foolish words. No call for disrespectin me. I may just have to hunt chu down and braek some of yer bones if yer cowardly attacks continue. You understand or are you a little dense tween yer ears?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:02 - ID#222167)
I've been unable to access postings for November 1st. On my menu, the day choices range from 2 to 31. For October 31st, I did notice LGB eas elated. LGB: Before you declare my defeat, you might also remember that I've been recommending December put option on the S&P 500. I'm still looking for a crash, and while the actual high occurred on August 6th, the panic-phase began October 15th. Based on previous crashes, October 31st was a good guess for the height of the panic.

It did not turn out that way. However, make no mistake about it. This stock market remains highly over-valued and grossly over-leveraged. A crash has started. And the bears will be the winners.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:03 - ID#289159)
So when do we get to experience the first nuk going off and will that be a prelude of more nuks to come? It seems to me us gold bugs will get to enjoy are great wealth in the last days. Sounds like it's a no win prop. No amount of gold will save you if things get that bad and there will be war over money = nuks.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:04 - ID#187218)
Puetz: I've had similar problem with the 1st. Can't get to earlier postings.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:09 - ID#18970)
The current regime can continue as long as everything is portrayed as perfect. When they know things cant remain perfect and One of the financial bubbles is about to do a hari kari they will search for a villain upon which to blame ie Saddam for example he worked well in '90 and is CIA trained. If Marts in US CANT recover in US look for a military blowup in the Middle East so that the Bubble makers dont get blamed/ BLAME SADDAM. Laughable but people will probably fall for it again. Further, war will keep money flowing into the over bloated and over owned dollar mkt which is the key to maintaining this historical Ponzi Scheme. Any ambiguity for any time and US Dollar is history along with Financials.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:15 - ID#57232)
@Home -- the REAL ANOTHER ID#60253 posts!
ANOTHER ( 22:43 post 11/1/97 ) : You are the original ANOTHER by your ID.
My assessment of your statement is that the LBMA - orchestrated ploy to keep the price of gold down is unraveling very soon ( weeks? ) . I presume that the "grey paper" reference is to the possibility that others want to curb the activities of the LBMA -- reading between the lines -- I suspect that you would agree that this will fail. This 200-300 year old gold trading activity cannot be stopped -- closing down the LBMA will just encourage the activity to go elsewhere -- to Istanbul, for example.
Earlier you said that we ( Kitcoites ) would not be happy with the outcome of the pending upward crisis in gold. However, I think you are saying that gold and oil are about to rebound. I would think that this would be favorably reflected in gold stock prices.
I do admit that the impending paper crisis will hit all equity prices, including that of gold stocks, and that the best time to buy gold stocks will be after the paper crash, not before. Are you saying that the paper crisis and the gold bullion rally will occur at the same time? I would have expected something more like the 1987 scenario, where gold stocks rallied at first, and then crashed with the market. However, this time there is only a whiff of inflation.
There is one other item in your comments today -- Pierre Lassonde just stated that ( in his opinion ) gold producer profits will languish for at least two years. Pierre Lassonde is well recognized as being a very astute student of the price of gold. He is president of EuroNevada, and FrancoNevada, two of the most profitable mining co's in the gold mining industry. How do you reconcile your statement regarding the imminent rise in the price of gold with Pierre Lassonde's bearish statement?
Again -- I do not expect a direct response, and I am only asking these questions because I honestly don't know the answer.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:21 - ID#318238)
"We have strong growth, low inflation as Unions have no power and international trade is growing. The new technologies herald a new era of opportunity and responsibility as people reject government solutions. We can look forward to increasing trade and earnngs growth. The low inflation and low unemployment bode very well for the future...though debt levels are worrying." Wall St Journal of 1929.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:23 - ID#206358)
Look liked SOuTH EAST ASIA fall back to the colonies time zone again!!
......DO WHAT I SAID,DON'T DO WHAT I DO!....We have to follow their game rules now..economy war age!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:28 - ID#348169)
You are really enamoured with yesterday's FREEDOM of SPEECH Marla Maples post aren't you? And yet you post such crap as: "White sheets and burning crosses are less offensive as far as I'm concerned." Give us a break LGB. Your head's in the gutter. Admit it.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:28 - ID#253183)
Southern man you really shouldn't done that. Now I like making alot of holes in places I don't like. You seem to fit the bill mister. Don't let lay eyes on you now.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:30 - ID#57232)
All: I get worried when the original ANOTHER posts twice in the same day -- what is in store for us next week? Will the "powers that be" desperately push gold down one more time? This bear market in gold can't last much longer. Isn't it interesting that G Soros reduced his holdings in NEM just before the Swiss bombshell?

My problem with another drop in gold next week or so is that I can't think of anything bigger than Switzerland "selling" half of its gold. How much longer can the "powers that be" cry wolf? Will the CB's use real gold this time instead of loans? I doubt they would do this, unless it was part of a "plunge protection package". I do know that if someone said that there was no gold in Fort Knox, that would be bullish for gold, though it might crash the markets -- if the story was believed.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:30 - ID#394165)
Alas, ye mere mortals. A billion here or there is nothing
in the eyes of the LORD. Gold will not rise and prosperity
will not falter. It is my plan for humankind to drown in
prosperity. Oil prices will not rise for that would
dampen the pollution it causes. Keep on producing my mortal
bretheren for surely ye will have nowhere left to put your
garbage ( I have only given you a small cage in which to live ) .
Gold will not go up for it will be the cost of garbage colletion
that will accelerate. Who will need money anyway when you
cannot drink the water or breath the air. You must prosper to
create more people and more "things". Everyone must have

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:33 - ID#57232)
@Home -- good night all
Goodnnight -- had a long day of chores. Don't let the posts by ANOTHER turn the remaining Nov1 Kitco hours into a rout!

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:34 - ID#31834)
Capitalism Sweeps the World

"Russia reforms and allows private ownership of businesses under its new NEP or New Economic Policy. US businesses rush to open joint ventures in Russia as the Bolsheviks turn to Capitalism. US industry to open shop in Russia in joint ventures as small business and private ownership flourish." 1928...

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:35 - ID#251213)
I'm going to purchase some xau puts Monday and hope they expire worthless

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:38 - ID#333405)
LGB- thanks for your input. Rather surprised though that you think the killing of black people by KKK is less offensive than the killing of Jews by Hitler. The Master whom I serve is also known as The King of The Jews, so I dont have the problem. There is absolutely NO room anywhere for any form of racism and I reject your incorrect assumptions about me.!
Now, if a man like Soros IS making and breaking countries through his financial empire,and if this man can have an effect on what is obviously very dear to you, then surely there is room on Kitco for this relevant information. ( In spite of all that extra bandwith taken up by Moody, who incidentally I find interesting as I do ALL the other Kitco postings ) .
Lighten up LGB and have a great day.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:40 - ID#335190)
October 31, 1997

Texas vote could open market for home equity loans

AUSTIN, Texas ( Reuters ) - Texas voters on Tuesday will vote on a state constitutional amendment that would clear the way
for homeowners to take out home equity and reverse mortgage loans.
Proposition 8, a constitutional amendment approved in this year's legislative session, would have an estimated $5 billion
impact on the state's economy and create 40,000 jobs as consumers borrow against their homes for the first time.
Texans are expected to borrow about $16 billion of the available $124 billion in home equity that could be borrowed
against, with about half of the loans used to pay off credit card debt, an Austin, Texas, mortgage banker said.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:43 - ID#253183)
@walking on water
God, nobody asked you and you are to speak only when spoken to. Ask me and I might grant you permission. And only then will you speak. You need to go through me ya "wipe". I run things around here ya got it. Now get.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:44 - ID#348169)
Compadre - I trust you noticed my musings of yesterday stating that LGB is a little early in his call of defeat from you. Now - Not outright disputing your strategy,
BUT, as I have mentioned to you and ALL previously, the premiums on straight out and out put options are ENORMOUS and yet IMNSVHO a truly committed bear would be more likely to reap greater financial profits by selling ( for instance ) a 1000 call ( collecting the premium ) and selling the S+P Futures outright. I don't believe you responded to this statement previously ( although some others agreed with this outlook ) . In fact since we discussed this scenario about a month ago, I believe that it has been quite profitable. What say you?

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:49 - ID#206358)
For those who interested in indonesia news...try:

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:50 - ID#25588)
If you're in Puetz's camp short the Dec S&P between 940-945 Monday or early Tuesday with a 950 or 5 point stop.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:55 - ID#253183)
@I'll do ya right
If things are going to continue around here I need to start collecting some premiums. As of tomorrow there's a cover charge at the door. Pay or post somewhere else. DON'T FORGET MY MONEY TOMORROW.

(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:55 - ID#60253)
The act being played out now is much larger
than the business of find the gold in the ground!
In the world today there are only three assets,
gold, oil and currencies. The paper currencies,
so long admired and accepted are now in a war
of self destruction. They will consume each other
in an end battle of Im the last man standing
but have lost all use as a unit of value. Each
nation state is trying to add a kicker or
premium to its trading paper as a means
of buying oil. This does not mean any country
will go without oil, they will have to work with
oil priced at a value rendering them uncompetitive.
National stock and bond markets do not like
this kind of news!
Inflation? We are not speaking of currency price
inflation here. This is currency destruction because
my national IOUs are being devalued by cheap oil
supply problems!
As was said before, the real gold market that most
people invest in is gone! Any gold trading paper
will evaporate in the heat of fire now starting to burn.
I tell you now, when the currencies are at nuclear war,

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Sat Nov 01 1997 23:58 - ID#25867)
THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH has been restored. You might have to press the reload or submit button an extra time to get it,but it's there. It won't work for October or December, but if you want to catch up on all of Nov 1, 1997 you shouldn't have any more problems.