Cause I think the spike had more importance concerning the near-term trend in gold---that's why....

Just had a scan through all of the gold producers with my Tradestation indicators in full bloom, and it looks like just about every gold producer has hit the dirt "so to speak". Any guesses as to how long the gold price will continue to be manipulated in this price range?

HIGH RISE.. According to Bloomberg, the 3 month rate is 5.30%. How can AG raise rates when overnight fed funds are now artificially kept at 5.5 ( too high ) . He can't go up. The 30 year bond rate was 6.14% today, as determined by the market. In the past few years, AG has never raised rates when gold was descending.

In the last few days, the yen has slid from 121 to 124+, indicating a move from yen to dollars. This coincides with the 30 yr bond rate going down, and gold going down in dollars.

Selby ( Toronto ) : See Lurker's post 18:43 today. I think he posted a longer, full length version, which I may have read. It was
NEW YORK, June23 ( Reuter ) at Columbia University. It is very clear that Hashimoto did intend to buy gold, and sell US treasuries. Hashimoto knows something about the future of gold.

Nick ( @Aussie ) : You know - you do write poetry -- when you are talking about the sea. Doesn't need to rhyme and still it is captivating.

G'night dude.......you 2 EB!

As a jeweler, is there sales tax in Illinois when selling gold coins to private individuals?

It is amazing how hindsight is 20-20. Everyone is giving Greenspan
credit for the fiscal state of the economy. In 1980 the guy that bit
the bullet was Paul Volker. I was not a fan of Paul, but in retrospect
he was responsible for getting things under control. Stock market
advisors like Bob Brinker can brag about their sucess but investing
in long term governments ( 30 year ) treasuries in 1981 have returned
16% per year without you having to read the newspaper. What
will history write about the "experts" in the year 2027?

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/=go gold

Help Bart! I'm locked in the past. I can't access current postings.

Central banks trap investors during devaluation of world currencies by limiting exits from money. If prices are low then supplies must be high relative to demand. This is basic economics. The truth is that demand exceeds supply globally and physical gold seems in short supply to investors. Why then does such a basic premise of economics not apply in this case?

The threat from central banks to dump on the market and the marketing campaign by the same to spoil investors view of the metal as an investment. Someone also seems to have bought the next several years mining production thereby insuring the lack of physical gold to form a credible market in the event of monetary collapse. Finally, the spin about potential deflation is the final death knell for any residual interest in holding a non-performing asset which most understand to be a hedge for inflation.

The central banks are planning to monetize the debts bringing on severe inflation yet stablizing volatile exchange gyrations and bringing a new reality to money supplies.

A few of us will become enriched through the foresight to own gold but those who wait until the impending crisis will find little precious metal to form a credible market in physical gold. The dollars in funds do not matter to the bankers because it will devalue anyways. They are not against the investor making money, only the sidestepping of their intentions through physical gold holdings. The few gold bugs here on Kitco do not form a signifigant roadblock to the coming carnage so there is not much to worry about as far as new hording laws.

Steve
http://www.familyjeweler.com

Rod Serling: All you need to do is move one day into the future -- easy once you know how!

Good night all --
Nick ( @Aussie ) : Hope your net is full when you pull in in -- we have learned alot from you already, regardless. Thanks, and good luck!

Central banks trap investors during devaluation of world currencies by limiting exits from money. If prices are low then supplies must be high relative to demand. This is basic economics. The truth is that demand exceeds supply globally and physical gold seems in short supply to investors. Why then does such a basic premise of economics not apply in this case?

The threat from central banks to dump on the market and the marketing campaign by the same to spoil investors view of the metal as an investment. Someone also seems to have bought the next several years mining production thereby insuring the lack of physical gold to form a credible market in the event of monetary collapse. Finally, the spin about potential deflation is the final death knell for any residual interest in holding a non-performing asset which most understand to be a hedge for inflation.

The central banks are planning to monetize the debts bringing on severe inflation yet stablizing volatile exchange gyrations and bringing a new reality to money supplies.

A few of us will become enriched through the foresight to own gold but those who wait until the impending crisis will find little precious metal to form a credible market in physical gold. The dollars in funds do not matter to the bankers because it will devalue anyways. They are not against the investor making money, only the sidestepping of their intentions through physical gold holdings. The few gold bugs here on Kitco do not form a signifigant roadblock to the coming carnage so there is not much to worry about as far as new hording laws.

Steve
http://www.familyjeweler.com

Nick, this is no Spruce Goose, this turkey won't fly, this bumble bee would give an aeronautics engineer nightmares. Provided you got PKUnzip, I got a mere 2.3mb sludging your way.

uuuhhhh

How Bizarre, How Bizarre

by OMC ( Otara Millionaire's Club )

Otara is one of the Social Welfare Dependant/High Crime suburbs of Auckland. There were no millionaire's in Otara until OMC Ha Ha Ha Ha

Re: KahunnaGrande's 22:55 post:
You may be right, but one of the chief designers of Pentium was born
in Asia. The same person then moved on to AMD, and designed an
improved clone, doing it on a schedule and budget that few people
believed could be done. While I don't think any Asian company will
beat Intel soon, they can create plenty of serious competition.

KGB not like venn gold go down. KGB know dat hack people in media vorking fur NEU WERLD ODER, make rossy prediction for paper currenzies gainst the gold, zpezially fur greenspan's bak, vhich much bullzhit about the dollar power is not refuted by learned people dat are HACK MEN.
Zpecilly in Vorld vhere all paper currenzies zmell like Zhit and da real monie gold - lingers.
Be reddy fur big ZURPRIZE.
NWO ruin my great kountry and itz people for their enrichment. VEE PISSED.
FROM RUSSIA VIT HATE - to the nwo and up vit the people.

WetGold: For the CBOT Silver 1000oz contracts try Lind-Waldock in Chicago at 800-445-2000. As someone else mentioned, there is not much volume in these things and consequently they can be difficult to use stops with. It took $5000 to open my account there. I've been happy with Lind-Waldock but my trading methods are another story. Good luck.

I bet you did not know that it is very difficult to make AU .999 high polish. You have to burnish it with a ruby graver stone or other polished and hard surface. This is in contrast to .5833 and .750 which can be buffed using rouge impregnated cloth spinning and 3450rpm.

go gold

BART
G'day, we got that upside~down antipodean thing again.

Upsets this server.

Well, it's nice to have a sensitive server. Good morning server.
Hope you're feeling better soon.

I am just going to toss this out and see if it bounces.

I think that once a government makes a deal, e.g. the Roosa Bonds, that it knows would create shouts of outrage were it known, and gets away with it, the next deal is easier. And the one after that easier still. And when your back is to the wall, whatever works is worth any risk, because the downside is too awful to contemplate

And I think weve been wheeling and dealing our paper in some pretty creative ways.

...The IMF can borrow under the General Arrangements to Borrow AND UNDER AN ASSOCIATED AGREEMENT WITH SAUDI ARABIA. What? Hey, the petro dollars are gone; swallowed up by London casinos and the expensive hi-jinks of 6,000 Royal Princes.
The King has problems with his people, problems with his neigbors and an ever growing need for more money! But then, the King has oil.

Mmmmmmm. Japan has lots of money, but no oil. US has lots of paper. IMF has lots of privacy. Lets do a deal. Japan comes back to the auctions, buys the paper; gives the paper to the Saudis for oil; the Saudis currency is pegged to the SDR, so its no problem to launder ( oops, I mean exchange ) the dollars into SDRs. By way of appreciation, a little sugar is included for the Saudis in the form of an interest strip off the bond. The Japanese are thanked profusely for their consideration and aid with the principal strip.
And dem dollars dont darken de horizon no more.

Whats wrong with this story?

Be gentle please.

Hong Kong down 4.8 %.

Watching yesterday's action was very disheartning, as it has to be when
the last attempts at shaking the tree for loose fruit is in progress.
Having lived through, or should I say survived, more bear markets than I
care to remember, I urge all to "HANG TOUGH", "keep the faith".
If the bottom isn't in, it ain't much further nor longer.

I was hoping someone here might be able to tell me when economic
management becomes a national security problem. Is there a point at
which an alternative solution will be sourced? Thanks.

HANG SENG DOWN -480 PTS AND NIKKIE -430 PTS!!!

Read the chinese article from hong kong about the investors:"THE CONFIDENCE SEEM SHAKING A BIT!".And prediceted that 6500-7000 points in next six months.
On friday 14/10,the japan financial department will declared:"RECESSION"!

( WILL CHECK OUT FROM THE ENGLISH VERSION AND POST IT LATER,OR SOME ONE
ELSE ) !

Look liked we are all sinking futher.......drift away.......

An article from reliable TAIWAN CHINESE news mentioned that:
"THE JAPANESE FINANCIAL DEPARTMENT WILL DECLARED" RECESSION PERION" ON THIS FRIDAY,14/NOVEMBER DURING THE MONTHLY FINANCIAL REPORT"
check it out...........

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/germany_bundesbank_g_1.html

Last story same as Swiss but coming from ANOTHER angle.

Chippie: Soon, Before the New Year --- Liberate **** ****

Easy, easy catchee monkey. Plans here and other place. Careful, We are being watched!!
EB should be eliminated, it knows to much

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971111/business/stories/markets_1.html

Check out the home pape of Bloomberg

HEADLINE: JAPAN BANKS HAVE 500 BILLION IN ASIAN BAD DEBTS, that represents 20% of the bad debts. The wild now begins - buckle up!! & buy PM's

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971110/pakistan_gold_import_1.html

Peregrine Sees Asia Ex-Japan Bad Debts at More Than $500 Bln

Bad debts at Asian banks outside of Japan could rise to more than $500 billion by the middle of
1998, as Southeast Asia's currency crisis shifts to Northeast Asia, said Christopher Wood, an
emerging markets strategist for Hong Kong-based Peregrine Group. The figure represents about 20
percent of all loans in nine Asian countries, he said. He said his $500 billion estimate of total bad
loans doesn't take into account a deterioration in economic conditions in Hong Kong, where he
now expects the level of non-performing loans to increase. ( 90 HK CN )

Korea's Rates Rise to 8-Month High on Currency Turmoil

South Korea's benchmark interest rates rose to an 8- month high as the central bank bought the
won to slow its fall. Investment banks borrowing won funds to convert into dollars to repay their
foreign-currency debts added to pressure on the currency. Rising interest rates will hurt finances at
Korean companies, which are already suffering record bankruptcies due to dwindling sales and
thinning profits. Interest payments currently account for more than 6 percent of revenues at Korean
companies. A series of major bankruptcies left Korean banks with billions of dollars in bad loans.
With their credit ratings downgraded, the banks have difficulties borrowing dollars in overseas
markets and are forced to turn to the local foreign exchange market to secure dollars.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971111/manila_9_mth_gold_ou_1.html

JTF, Aurator
Thanks, away we go.

Swing chart updated.
Current cycle to top out and reverse tonight?
The next downswing should be larger than the previous one.
http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/Swin14.gif

Tried emailing jokes, the address I have wouldn't accept please email me
with new address of suggestion.

Physical Gold. Where?
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/indian_gold_silver_o_1.html
Nikkei graph today. 2 year low
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/je3tbc/html/sthome.html
Europeans bearish
http://cnnfn.com/markets/wires/9711/12/europe_open/

I looked in my dog-eared ephemeris the other day, and there on the margin for November 1997 were the pencil notations "Buy Gold" "Buy Gold Standard, Inc" "Buy Silver". "Buy gold stocks." They had been written there three years ago, in anticipation of a major bottom in gold for this Fall/Winter. Would that I had followed my own advice. Alas I started buying gold stocks at the Spring bottom, as greed made me think I would not get the REAL opportunity I saw in the Fall. But the truck has backed up one more time. Shovel in the shares lads and lasses. The Uranus square to NYSE Venus, which came on in the Spring, and has returned for its final pass right now, in October/November, has been the damaging culprit. Not without cooperation from "fundamental" reality, of course, but ALL things must synchronize with the clockwork of the Zodiac. That is Cosmic Law. Not that I want to sound spacey or mysterious. I bring this all up, dear Kitcoites, in order to point out that we are NOW in the eye of the storm astrologically. That we shall soon pass through to the other side, dear goldbugs and bugettes, and that the evil powers of darkness are going to be dispelled forthwith. It is the bottom, dear ones, so buy with abandon in the days ahead. Have faith. If I have seen ahead to the great things coming, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of great astrologers and metaphysicians ( or Cherokee ) . Is there a metaphysician in the house?

Mofos:

Gold bottom is in! Today! Yes, that's ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

Buy Gold NOW!

As mentioned in these hallowed cyberhalls over the weekend, the overall stockmarket may have hit resistance, and the S&P may be heading down to test 852. If this level cannot hold, we will see the 760's by some time in January. I would prefer not, as I am still looking for some astro action in several squashed but ripe and ready small caps. But the danger of a fresh leg down exists. We must exceed the current rally's highs, or we shall tank.

Interesting. Do you want to get in on the Japan housing boom? ( Just joking )

Wednesday November 12, 6:05 am Eastern Time

Tokyo Sowa to securitise Y100 bln of loans in U.S.

TOKYO, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - Tokyo Sowa Bank Ltd ( 8534.T ) said on Wednesday that it has concluded a contract with Bear Stearns Securities
Co Ltd of the United States to help securitise housing loans and sell them in the United States.

The bank will initially securitise 50 billion yen from next June and raise the amount to 100 billion yen over a year, an official said.

The regional bank based in Tokyo will become the first Japanese bank to securitise housing loans without the approval of borrowers and the
move will be made possible by a Japanese legal revision in April 1998, he said.

The official said the action would enable the bank to improve its capital adequacy ratio and to offer new housing loans to customers.

- Tokyo Equities Desk ( 813 ) 3432-9404

Mike Sheller: Morning. Yesterday or Monday Mr. Crawford, I think that's right, was on CNBC Puppet Lemming network. Mr.C. has an astrological newsletter, I believe it is in Arizona, not sure.

He was saying that there was much afoot in the stars. He said something at Thanksgiving or right afterwards did not look good. Did you catch this.

I am not a subscriber to his publication. Any input.

Normally this news of a strike would be bullish for gold, but... .

Wednesday November 12, 3:45 am Eastern Time

Libanon gold miners strike continues

JOHANNESBURG, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - More than 7,000 miners at Kloof Gold Mining Co Ltd [Nasdaq:KLOFY - news]'s Libanon division
were still on strike on Wednesday with production at a standstill, the company said.

Gold Fields spokesman Andrew Davidson said the workers, who went on an illegal strike on Sunday night, had still not returned to work for the
Wednesday morning shift.

``We hope to have talks with their representives today,'' Davidson said, adding that a Labour Court injunction had been served to warn the
strikers the action was illegal.

Production at the Libanon division, which produced 2,666.6 kg of gold in the three months to end-September, had ground to a halt, Davidson
said.

Six working shifts had already been lost. ``Production is at a standstill,'' he said.

The company said on Monday that the strike ``constitutes an unprotected strike as provided for in the Labour Relations Act of 1995.''

Libanon made a working loss of 17.9 million rand in the quarter ended September 30.

Mike Sheller: I agree with you! I'm in for the long hall, hopefully. I've been hit hard, down over 70% from last years high point- ouch! I've lost over 80,000 in a relatively short period of a year and a half! But I haven't sold any yet - just paper loss. I go through periods of feeling sort of sick and depressed, but hope that things will look better in a year or two. I'm thinking that soon I may buy on margin to try to leverage any big moves up in gold. There are so many great buys out there. I have some companies I feel will do well. Golden Star Resources, Bema, El Callao, Stillwater Mining, First Dynasty, Euro Nevada, Atna, Pan American, Silver Standard, Courd D Alene, Vista, Campbell Resources, International Tournigan, Pangea, El Dorado, Barrick, Newmont, North Amer Palladium, etc... Now you can understand why I'm down so much. Is it a case of "Nothing Ventured Nothing..." or "A Fool and his Money...".

I'm hoping that someday gold will win out before I run out that is.

Please keep us posted on your impressions of the market. Maybe I'll wait for some momentum to the upside before jumpin in. I feel more like "Nothing Ventured Nothing..."

Thanks again for your posts!

tolerant1

I have alot of respect for Arch. He has made alot of good calls, usually he has been very up front about his calls ( appearences on TV etc. ) He is presently bearish on stocks and bullish on gold.

I don't get his newsletter. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone that takes his newsletter on exactly where he stands at the moment.

I believe Arch is looking to have big news around November 28 to Dec 2.

September 1997 from Gold Newsletter, excerpt:

Frank Veneroso, once atain, has come up with one of the best arguments I've seen.:

"What will happen to the gold price if the U.S. stock market crashes?" It depends in large part on how a stock market crash will affect the short sellers. Will they view it as deflationary, and negative for gold? Or will they fear a flux of investor funds into gold and move to cover.

"...Our guess is that a discontinuity to the downside will trigger reductions in other theme-correlated, leverage-fund positions. Funds will tend to cover their gold shorts, and the uptrend in the gold price that will be created will trigger a further, technically based unwinding of the speculative short positions...Given the prevailing large deficit in the gold market, the gold price would then rise."

Remember they will do anything to sell bonds!!!!
Does this mean they have to raise interest rates ??? CNBC 15% Chance ??? Other countries are raising rates do we have to also, to keep our bonds competitive. AG had said that the majority on the Fed are concerned about INFLATION.

Where o where has all the gold gone and how can this price stay so low with talk of going lower? Supply Demand Who is pulling market down on every rally and how long can they keep it up? This is really getting tiresome. We know the value is there it is like being offered a new Corvette for $5000 cash. Come on boys and girls lets pundle up so much cash they can't hold us back!!!**

A. Goose: I agree with you that he is upfront and direct. The CNBC puppet lemmings give him some one eybrow looks as they go camera and such, but he holds his ground and seems totally unaffected by it.

During the past several months I have seen him three times I think and he is always reserved and firm in his beliefs. He never gives flipant answers and is meticulous in his research and what specifics he draws his conclusions from.

Interesting to say the least.

Silver, platinum, and palladium up nicely. Gold down $2.20

All: I wonder -- could the Japanese government have decided that it is time to let the air out of the Nikkei bubble - "slowly"? Hard to believe any air left after nearly 8 years -- but looks like that way, doesn't it? We should all worry about that world class Japanese bank collapsing and causing a currency crisis. Did AG's international plunge protection team do its job -- was all the shuttling between SE Asia and Washington effective? Lets hope our White Night is successful -- for all of our sakes!
Jin - your early warnings are extremely helpful. Please take care.

EBN $307.85 and fading fast How long can this go on?

Four U.S. oil workers were killed by gunmen in Pakiston today. Just after a Pakistani national was convicted of killing two CIA employees. This kind of thing will become much more common as the global financial crisis intensifies.

Four U.S. oil workers were killed by gunmen in Pakiston today. Just after a Pakistani national was convicted of killing two CIA employees. This kind of thing will become much more common as the global financial crisis intensifies.

George ... since you are lurking ( and posting ) this morning ... let me ask you one .. Many posters to this group advocate "Physical" PM's ...yet if the physicals were to rise substantially ... wouldn't the stock rise even further and faster? Why the emphasis on Physical? Thanks

....Liquidity crises is brewing in the global markets.Euros and other
shortterm paper interests are rising ,Yen crashing below 80,the Nikkei
should be hitting 14000 in a short order.Gold will hit a V bottom,
and massive unwinding of derivatives are going to take place.
Interest rates in the long bonds will sky rocket.We are now reaching
the two year low in the longterm bond interest rate cycle.Everything
is falling into place.Gold stocks will go down initially with gold
rising.I expect Barrick to drop to 18 Canadian and Placer to 12

All: I would worry more about the day gold goes up, and not down during a pending crisis. That day we may not want to see, because of the obvious implications. For the moment, I welcome the drop in gold because to me it means the PPT is still active behind the scenes. We need to come down slowly.

The more they mess with the markets, keyword markets, plural, the worse this clank will be on a global scale. If not today, in the future. The markets will take on a life of their own and they will crush everything in their way until a balance has been met due to natural law.

Todays lecture, Man Master of the Universe has been cancelled due to the weather.

How much you figure all that furniture and the rest of the stuff is worth in the White House? Let's start the auction.

Like a barber shop.....NEXT!

They are hammering gold hard again this morning. Their problems have grown beyond desperate, pointing at gold has done them no good. Soon they will have no time nor energy to play this losing game, they have to many other areas that are falling apart.

Nick ( and other chartist ) it might be helpful to display the price of gold in other currencies. I think people would be surprised how gold has done in terms of yen, Australian dollar, ...

The U.S. dollar is the game that is being played now. They need to have it protected, they need money to flow to our bonds to pay our deficit ways. Protect the stock market, protect the bond market, protect the dollar, the three pillars that hold up our life style. The stock market is going, going, gone ... The dollar is faltering and losing credibility ... Bonds are being sold buy key foreigners ( sp ) .... The game is done.

Soon they will realize it and move on to the next backup plan, no more time to point to gold and saying all is well because gold is down or low. They will ignore gold and say its action are now relevant and/or they will say it is a positive indicator because gold is moving up because it means_________ ( fill in the blanks with whatever keeps the masses calmish and passive ) . ( early morning ramblings )

http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/hi/english/business/newsid_30000/30131.stm

fundaMETAList --- thanx for your post on 12 Nov 01:20... I'll try them ...

tolerant1, JTF:
Obviously I have to agree with your viewpoints. I guess folks will jsut have to go out and get some more bullion. Just think how those silly asians that bought gold during the boom days ( a few months ago ) were treated as they sold their stocks and bonds and bought gold ... .

Playing this gold market is like riding a bucking bronco with no rodio clowns to take the heat off. Kind of reminds me of the following story:

I had a near death experience that has changed me forever. The other
day I went horseback riding. Everything was going fine until the horse
starts bouncing out of control. I tried with all my might to hang on,
but was thrown off.

Just when things could not possibly get worse, my foot gets caught in
the stirrup. When this happened, I fell head first to the ground. My head continued to bounce harder as the horse did not stop or even slow down. Just as I was giving up hope and losing consciousness, the Walmart
manager came and unplugged it.

Thank goodness for heros.

http://www.smh.com.au:80/daily/content/971112/world/world3.html

Bill: Physical metal is better if paper takes a bath. Just because the metal rises does not mean that the metal stocks will rise. What you have at least you have in your possession. It is YOUR MONEY, not the governments, not the Federal Reserve nor the Central Banks.

That is the problem with this whole figment standard paper rip-off the US government ( illegally ) and the Fed, Central Banks have done a beautiful job in taking real money ( Constitution-real money gold and silver ) away from the people and replaced it with paper. Paper is the lie of the criminals that are the United States Government, the Federal Reserve ( nothing federal about it ) and the Central Bankers. Gold and silver are the only real money on the planet.

If there is a total meltdown of markets, paper will be worthless. Gold and silver on the other hand will allow you to feed your family.

But for a letter Gold..God.the L stands for longevitythe word of man is nothing more than the fleeting will of good people.gold stands tall like no other metal and outlasts the evil that is the politicians and bankers lies.

I understand there are some nice place settings for sale at the White House.

Oh, by the way: We the People only accept gold and silver as payment.

Like a barber shop; Next. We haven't got all day. Step right this way.

The average daily gold clearing turnover in October of 42 million ounces was the highest since the London
Bullion Market Association ( LBMA ) began to compile records a year ago, the LBMA said on Wednesday. AND LOOK WHO IS BUYING IT.


Wednesday November 12, 7:37 am Eastern Time

London October gold turnover reaches record-LBMA

LONDON, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - The average daily gold clearing turnover in October of 42 million ounces was the highest since the London
Bullion Market Association ( LBMA ) began to compile records a year ago, the LBMA said on Wednesday.

The average figure last month was up 22 percent from the 34.3 million ounces recorded in September and 53 percent above the October 1996
level.

``The high level of turnover in October was stimulated by the continuing weakness in the gold price,'' the LBMA said.

Most of the price fall occurred towards the end of the month after the Swiss National Bank said it could sell up to 1,400 tonnes from its gold
reserves.

There was also a high level of demand for physical gold especially from the Middle East, ``but turnover was generally driven by the extremely high
level of activity in the forward market,'' the LBMA said.

The average afternoon fix price in October was $324.87 per ounce compared to $322.82 in September leading to a steep rise in the turnover
value to $13.6 billion daily from $11.1 billion the previous month.

Average silver turnover hit a record of 345.5 ounces, 10 percent up on September and 24 percent up on October 1996.

The average London spot price for silver in October was $5.03 against $4.73 in September so that the value of the daily turnover rose to $1.7
billion, its highest since the LBMA's records began.

The number of transaction for both metals was also higher than the previous month. Silver set a record average of 592 lots but gold's 1,326 daily
transfers were below the levels seen in the 1997 first quarter.

I stated TWO WEEKS AGO/ SHORT GOLD ON ANY CRISIS. Yesterday and today are the most clear cases of suppression I have seen yet. If things stabalize go long as that is when the manipulators will cover their shorts. Silver is itching to go up both technically and fundame ntally/ Therefore they have to kill gold to hold silver at bay.

TORT: HA HA HA HA HA......hilarious, you are killin me....that is hilarious!

SnP's down almost limit on Globex ... ( again ) !!

Good 1....S+P gettin hammered....gold gettin hammered...what's up doc??

They are already telling us not to worry about competitive devaluations. Okay, that makes me sleep better. IMF Managing Director Michael Camdessus is working overtime.

Korea must face up to IMF bailout soon

Talk about a tough job. couldn't pass it up, its got to be tough when their are people standing in line to get a job as "human sheild". I would rather work at MacDonald's, but I am a gold bug.

More Iraqis volunteer as human shields at palaces

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/iraq_palaces_2.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/korea_investment_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/indonesia_imf_devalu_2.html

BillD -- Gold shares are risky because of the stock market 'problems' associated with them. Such as, not being able to buy or sell your stock due to the general market heading one way or another. What happened a couple of weeks ago should have provided everyone with a crystal clear example of the risks involved.

With physical, .... It's in your hand. True, you have less leverage but more safety.

Now, if Bill Clinton really were the President of the United States and the leader of the FREE WORLD ORDER he would turn the heat up to a boil. Get the Chinese people so angered as to mash the student murdering weasel and crush the 120 million army of robots.

My simple plan allows for no violence on the part of the USA.

We load up 747s, as many as we can get our hands on. We modify them to have bay doors underneath.

Then the next part of my FREE WORLD ORDER plan. We take gold coins,even mix from US, CAN, etc., chocolate bars, wrapped in US, CAN, ETC. flags, throw in some Twinkies, and Big Macs, other snacks and such, cuddly toys for the children, and care packages away.

I would give the murdering student weasel and the 120 million robots about 90 days total and that's from start to finish, plus clean up. They have alot of brooms I hear. Jim Croce said when he was in Japan, if you listened carefully you could hear a whoooshing noise to the West. It was the sound of 2,000,000,000 brooms cleaning the square.

The U.S. cannot afford to lose any military conflict now, no matter how small or large. The dollars reputation as a 'safe haven' is at risk if this happens. Saddam knows what he is doing. Quite a game of chess, eh?

Before I get hammered, that was supposed to be 2,000,000 brooms. Opps.

Views for the coming turbulance:

Read and study the t/a of mania's
Mania's tend to crash, then crawl, into long term bear markets.

Not till after the crash, should gold stocks be accumulated.
Not till after the crash, should gold bottom.

Legal documents of financial contracts, held by other parties,
Should be copied and stored in a safe place.
Copies of other paper contracts, should be duplicated and stored.

Evaluations of personal debt/equity positions, should be undertaken.
One does not want to be squeezed, in the coming financial disaster.

An emergency supply of cash, should be appropriated away.

What time does Mr. Magoo, I mean Mr. Greenspam go live with the rest of the traveling figment standard paper ripoff show. I want a ring side seat for that circus, I already have my nose on. Clown city here we come.

As for gold? Patience, there are still enough veterans on the 'street' who 'know' what to do. I'm still curious to see if we test the 1993 low of 64 on the XAU.

S+P futures down the limit....Long bond up 16 ticks---flight to quality ( ? ) continues......

On the fly and out for the day. Wonder if I will be able to get on tonight.

I hope everyone has noticed that JUICE is up over 10% in the last 3 days.

Need consultancy! Is there any site ( other than KITCO ) where spot gold price autoupdated might be seen.

The Dec bond has to go over 118'20 to confirm
a run to 120,could happen today.

The Hong Kong Monetary Authority stepped up its
inspection of local banks yesterday to ensure it is
able to react rapidly to any banks experiencing
financial difficulties, deputy chief executive David
Carse said.
The authority sent a letter to banks and other
authorised institutions requiring them to submit
deposit, loan and liquidity situations by fax to the
authority on a daily basis.

During normal market conditions the authority
makes weekly inspections of local banks but
decided to step up its assessments while financial
volatility in Hong Kong persisted.

"We have demonstrated all that the banks are okay
and all of them have fulfilled their liquidity
requirements. The rumours that some banks are
facing financial difficulties are without foundation,"
Mr Carse said.

He emphasised the enhanced regulatory regime was
not a reaction to Monday's minor run on the
International Bank of Asia ( IBA ) , but formed part
of its wider policy of keeping a close watch on the
sector.

The Government yesterday maintained its policy of
reassuring account holders about the banking sector
in an attempt to ensure the minor run on IBA was
not repeated elsewhere.

Financial Secretary Sir Donald Tsang Yam-kuen
said the $534.5 billion Exchange Fund was
prepared to support IBA and other banks should
they experience difficulties.

"The Exchange Fund stands squarely behind this
institution and will provide all the necessary financial
support it may require to meet its obligations for as
long as is necessary," Sir Donald said.

"As we know, rumour-mongers serve their own
selfish purposes. They are not acting in the interest
of all of us.

"We have very sound fundamentals in Hong Kong
and I'm quite sure we have the determination and
strength to overcome this difficulty."

Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa also reiterated his
confidence in the SAR's banking sector.

"We are not afraid this will spread because the
HKMA has really been on top of the situation at all
times and our assessment is that all banks in Hong
Kong are sound," he said.

IBA claimed victory yesterday in quashing the
potential run in less than 24 hours.

IBA chief executive Mike Murad said: "I declare
this short run over. When I say it's over, it's over."

Only two of the bank's 28 branches throughout
Hong Kong had to extend their business hours to
meet demand from customers wanting to withdraw
funds.

About $700 million to $800 million was withdrawn
yesterday in addition to the $600 million to $700
million withdrawn on Monday.

Mr Murad said the bank honoured most of these
withdrawal demands from internal resources with a
"very small amount" from the "billions and billions"
provided by its parent, Arab Banking Corp.

The authority also made available "substantial"
emergency funds to the bank but there had been no
need to draw down these funds, he said.

Mr Murad said the bank had also declined an offer
from the SAR's three note-issuing banks who said
on Monday they would provide financial help if
required.

He said the bank had liquid funds in excess of $5.6
billion, marginally higher than the level on Monday
because it continued to record an inflow of deposits
from its supporters.

Mr Murad said there would be no changes to the
bank's asset-liability management policy as it was
sufficiently prudent with non-performing loans of
only 0.22 per cent of assets.

Mr Murad said he would not pay higher interest
rates than the prevailing market to attract deposits.

"I let quite a bit of corporate deposits leave this
bank because customers were demanding high
interest rates and I'll continue to do that," the chief
executive said.

The bank obtains 75 per cent of its funding from
retail deposits, with the remainder coming from
certificates of deposit and interbank borrowing.

IMF and the Peg

All:

Yesterday's post of an article implying that Korea was a large gold borrower and short may give some clue as to what is really going on in the gold market. Since central bank loans into the gold market are by and large secret, perhaps this has been a method used to lend money to failing countries without any public review. What do you suppose the reaction of the Swiss or German people would be if they were asked to provide large loans for Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea or any other of the countries which are currently in the depths of a financial crisis? If however the German and Swiss central banks loan gold into the gold market and the Koreans or anyone else for that matter borrow the gold the loan is 'sterilized'. The Central banks loan the gold to a bullion house and so do not directly make the loan to the country in question. If ever brought to task for this activity they can claim that they were only trying to 'manage' their 'sterile' reserves, as any good central banker has learned in CB101.

If these countries are in fact using the gold market as a means of financing their ailing financial system it would explain why each 'crisis' causes another downward spike in gold. Every time the banks go to the well they must sell more gold in order to realize the cash that they need for operating.

If the other central banks are in on the deal, and it would seem that they are given how their announcements to sell, or loan gold are exquisitely timed to have maximum negative effect on the market, it would be in their interest to maintain a low gold price so their 'loans' would not explode.

This strategy would have a chance if it were not for the laws of supply and demand. It would appear that the players have vastly underestimated the increase in physical gold demand by everyone else on the planet as a result of the lower prices. This is why lease rates are going up and we have seen a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that physical gold is indeed in short supply. This tightness in the market has forced the Swiss national bank into the lending game. Certainly all the central banks have some limit as to what they will loan out and as those limits are reached new lenders must be drawn into the game.

The game will probably end one or two ways. First the laws of supply and demand may simply overwhelm the lenders and there will be a spike in the lease rates for gold. Once the lease rates have gone high enough so that they cause borrowers to begin losing money on the carry they will begin to liquidate their short positions. To do this they will have to purchase physical gold. This should drive the price higher and cause a self reinforcing avalanche of buying in an already squeezed market. The second way that this madness can end will be for one of the big borrowers to go belly up and be forced to admit to their outstanding gold debt. This will lead down a path back to the gold lenders who will be in deep s*&t with their respective populaces for pissing away thier gold reserves. If the light of day ever hits this scheme it will be over in a flash.

Either of these two scenarios will result in a reversal of extreme speed trapping the shorts and leaving would be bulls gaping.

This whole story is just conjecture, like everything else which is written about these markets, but it does have some plausability. It does not say when the bottom will be reached but it does anticipate that the first move up will be very fast. Since it is clear that at these prices demand is growing by leaps and bounds and the physical is getting harder to come by, it would appear to be a very safe place to be long.

Gold is a different commodity from soybeans and porkbellies in that the individual is happy to own the physical. This is important in trying to come to grips with a floor price. In the other commodity markets, final declines can carry much further because speculative longs are in no position to take delivery because they are not in the business. In the gold market, those people who are now speculating by buying physical gold will receive no margin calls and will be very strong holders.


I will be talking to my partner today about making a fairly major commitment to this market at these prices. It is the kind of bet that sits well in the risk reward universe.

BillD: Gold or metal stocks? Depends on how bad the crisis gets.

Gold stocks far outperformed bullion during the early 1930s. That was the worst financial and economic crisis the U.S. has ever faced. Unless you believe the whole financial system is about to fall apart completely and all paper will be worthless -- the gold stocks ( at least those that have not hedged too much ) will do much better than bullion when the tide turns.

Debt-rating agency Standard & Poor's has warned
that turmoil in international financial markets could
have negative effects on many banks worldwide.

"The biggest short-term impact on banks is the
battering their borrowing customers are taking from
sharply falling currencies, spiking short-term interest
rates, declining property values and gyrating stock
markets," the agency's global financial institutions
ratings managing director, Roger Taillon, said in the
latest issue of its CreditWeek publication.

"While increases in problem loans have been
concentrated in Asia, the risks could spread
elsewhere," he said.
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971112010453073?=biz&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=2332

shm: http://www.gold-eagle.com I'm pretty sure.

Excellant theory D.A. I will noogle on it awhile. Very interesting indeed.

nomercy: your synthesis of the past events very well
put in perspective.

"Let us not confuse stability with stagnation." ---Mary Jean LeTendre

The North American markets may see a day similar to what we saw acouple mondays ago, a barn burner, what do you think?? It kind of reminds me of the Doukabours that settled down in Grand Forks B.C. at the beginning of this century, the women ran around nude and burnt wooden houses and barns down. To eliminate these problems each commune started to build their homes and sheds out of bricks, it stopped much of the damage. If anyone has the opportunity to visit this south central part of B.C. you'll see it dotted with huge brick houses and barns thoughout the region. You'd think after all the carnage in the Asian markets people would start building their portfolios out of brick, "GOLD BRICK" if ya know what I mean!!

I meant my referral to D.A instead nomercy.

DA: Your theory makes a lot of sense. I too feel that when gold does turn the move will be exposive.

WW: With many starting to recognize the fact that gold has become a reverse barometer of global financial stress, I am starting to wonder if the manipulators might soon begin to drive it higher in an effort to reassure the markets that all is O.K.

Backdrop: Book shelves, packed with legal looking books, authority instilling. Puppet type - female, hair - brown, clothing - conservative - darker colors, puppet voice box - human monotone simulator, pre-recorded tape - flight to quality.

In today's world the smart investor ( lemming ) goes to US Treasurey to secure safety.

Sheesh!

Have a look at spz7 and look at the volumes building up.
The Ftse100 data on Yahoo is incorrect.
It urrently reads down -18.6.
Yet my live quote puts it at :
FTSE 100 4685.10 -108.60 at 13:25 on 12 Nov 97


Financial turmoil hitting Eastern Europe:
Russia down -6.95%, third day in a row, with heavy loses.
Also Turkey down -5.3%.
Hungary down -7.7%

We now have Asia, Sth America, and Eastern Europe,
Falling into the chaos.
It will spread to the the next tier of countries,
Then to the major powers.
Already Japan is starting to crumble.

A.Goose.
That idea of gold charts in global currencies would be one to take up with Bart @ Kitco.
I'm sure he could do it justice.
The Privateer carries p&f charts of Yen, DM, $A, $US / gold prices.
http://the-privateer.com/g-charts.html

There could well be examples of ramping, to be viewed tonight.
Snapshots of SPZ7 at end of globex trading,
Notice the large volumes bid/ask.

http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/Spz7.gif
http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/Spz71.gif

CNBC - NEWS FLASH - NEWS FLASH -Today's decision to fire all human puppets should be viewed only as a downsizing effort to give our shareholders the most return on their investment. The human puppets will be replaced with the newly acquired crash dummies from Insurance companies that did not do well in the recent, market downturn of 3500 points.

The term "crash" has no financial connotation and has been removed from all written literature and the voice box simulators. We have corrected the problem we had with the voice of Maria B. being installed in all the male dummies.

We now return you to your regularly pre-recorded programming.

The following site gives an instantaneous snapshot of gold, the long bond, and the major stock market averages:
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/data/marketdata.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

Martin Armstrong and others have claimed that Germany has been or will sell off its gold reserves: The following statement by the bank refutes this. ( which gives caution to relying too much on "Armstrong" insider information ) .
Germany's Bundesbank on Wednesday, saying it had no plans to sell reserves.``Selling gold reserves is not an issue for the Bundesbank. The Bundesbank has no intentions of selling"

WSJ:
November 12, 1997

Review & Outlook
Asia's Chain Reaction

When Thailand tried in July to cure its economic ills by
devaluing the baht, the International Monetary Fund
praised the move as a way to ensure "financial stability." Instead, the Thai
slide triggered an avalanche of falling currencies and economic wreckage
that has rolled across East Asia from Malaysia to Indonesia to the
Philippines and Taiwan, laid siege to Hong Kong and is now battering
South Korea. All this has been shaking emerging markets from Brazil to
Greece, and poses a growing threat to the world's second-largest
economy, and Southeast Asia's chief creditor, Japan.

Somehow, all this does not sound to us like the dawn of stability. We have
here a phenomenon that economists call competitive devaluation, in which
countries try to keep up with rivals by eroding their own money--a
process that destroys the trust vital to letting markets work.

The mistake is the notion that devaluations make a country more
competitive. They may briefly, the way morphine lets you feel no pain. But
you can't improve the real terms of trade simply by changing the unit of
account. There are accompanying effects that offset any initial kick, and do
damage besides. Devaluations make it more costly to buy imports, which
are the real payoff for exporting. Ultimately devaluations produce inflation.
And most crucial for Asia, they erode credibility. Businessmen make deals
trusting to one set of terms, and find themselves abruptly saddled with
another. They head for the exits.

The chain reaction now sweeping Asia is proving hard to bring under
control. So far, President Clinton and his Treasury Secretary, Robert
Rubin, have placed a lot of faith in the power of systemic bailouts--or so
we assume, since we haven't seen them doing anything else. Along with
Thailand, Indonesia now has its own IMF bailout. Last Thursday, IMF
Director Michel Camdessus announced that the Fund stood ready to help
South Korea. The next day, the won plunged to an all-time low. Why
anyone thinks by now that this process will produce stability is hard to
figure.

The Asian chain reaction isn't going to be stopped simply by waiting until
more countries queue up for bailouts. It's a costly way to fix the world.
With a Thai tab of $17.2 billion and an Indonesian package that with
trimmings now tops $40 billion, how much would South Korea need?
Problems there have been bringing pressure again on South Korea's
competitor and trading partner, Taiwan. Which in turn does a lot of
business with Hong Kong and China. So if IMF piecemeal bailouts don't
do the trick by round three, who's next? Would the Fund care to try
bailing out Japan?

Recently we asked the IMF's Deputy Managing Director Stanley Fisher
when Indonesia and Thailand might again stabilize their currencies. Mr.
Fisher replied, "It's an open question now as to where they'll end up."

What's needed at this point in the world's economic affairs is leadership in
setting up a system more dependable than using IMF bailouts as a guide to
the future value of money. Where that leadership might come from is a
tough question.

In Asia, political will and vision lag behind sneaker production. South
Korea is heading into a presidential election next month in which none of
the candidates want to inhale. Malaysia has Prime Minister Mahathir
campaigning for the end of markets or some such. Indonesia has President
Suharto pondering whether to take away factory toys from his kids. China
has yet to re-invent a banking system. Japan, a natural to take the lead,
has spent the past seven years unable to mop up its domestic financial
spills.

So the spotlight turns to the U.S. There we find a President whose latest
feat was to reduce fast-track free-trade powers to a heap of special
interest irrelevancies. Thankfully, tariffs are already low, and as such,
fast-track's collapse is no great cataclysm, other, perhaps, than for the
office of the U.S. Presidency. And that indeed has costs.

The day may yet arrive when the relevant world economic players will
want to meet at a venue such as the Plaza Hotel to shore up the reliability
of the world's economy. Under those circumstances, the U.S. needs to be
able to walk in with a lot of credibility and clout. But credibility and clout
isn't what you carry in when the President of the United States is beset
with personal and political problems emerging from the milieu of Charlie
Trie, Mr. Wu, the Arkansas cronies and all the rest. As a result, that
leadership has been defaulted to the IMF, hoping that just one more
devaluation will stanch the flood. This is hoping for a lot.

Return to top of page
Copyright  1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

BKX will get hammered today....not me though~~~~~~~~~

DA You may want to rethink your reasoning in view of the following:

By Jae Hur
SEOUL, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - South Korean bullion firms are
extremely unlikely to default on deferred payments for huge gold
imports, despite growing concerns over the country's financial
health, because the companies' financial reputations would be
shattered and they are backed by South Korea's giant "chaebol"
industrial groups, local dealers said on Wednesday.

Local dealers said talk in the New York gold market on
Tuesday that the country's banks were involved in the bullion
trade were incorrect.
"Allegations that Korean banks were involved in gold
arbitrage trading don't make any sense because they are banned
from doing so," one bullion dealer said.
South Korean banking regulations forbid banks from buying or
selling gold.
The rumours added to mounting concerns in financial markets
over the South Korean economy, the world's 11th largest in terms
of gross domestic product, which faces rapidly rising servicing
costs on a mountain of U.S.-dollar denominated corporate debt.
The won's recent slide against the dollar has further swollen
those debts.
Local bullion houses are currently allowed to import gold
bought from international dealers on a 30-day deferred payment
basis for transshipment trade and pay a premium over world
prices plus interest based on London Inter-bank Offered Rates
( LIBOR ) . The deferral was shortened in the middle of last year
from 120 days by the government to limit importers arbitrage'
profits.
Previously, bullion houses had imported huge amounts of gold
on 90-day deferred payments, then immediately exported it,
parking the proceeds in high-interest domestic money market
instruments.
Gold imports for refining by domestic bullion producers,
including LG Metals and Korea Zinc, are still subject to a
maximum 180-day deferred payment rule.
Dealers said it was more profitable to import gold on a
deferred payment basis than lease the metal. If a buyer wants to
borrow gold for three months he has to pay contango costs for
the period and needs to cover his obligation for making physical
delivery, and the price risk, by building a three-month long
position in the futures market.
"Gold purchase on lease rates isn't profitable when we
consider all these factors," one dealer said.
But South Korean companies are now curbing their gold
transshipment trade as they fear huge exchange rate losses due
to the won's sharp decline against the dollar, dealers said.
The won has lost about 15 percent so far this year to the
greenback.

Most ordered sandwiches, renamed, the Rubin, people order this sandwich not to eat it, but to continually stick a fork in it. The Clinton Burger, an empty bun, signifying his foreign policy and financial beliefs. Where's the BEEF!

Tolerantl: Thank you a lot for quick response. Being at Gold-Eagle didn't find there live spot gold. The best presentation of real-time info I saw at www.quote.com but failed to get spot gold. May be only Kitco displays it free?

So if the LBMA has this huge volume, why is the price set on comex for gold?

LBMA: GOLD, SILVER DAILY TURNOVER ROSE SHARPLY IN OCTOBER

Futures World News - November 12, 1997 06:15
METAL V%FWN P%FWN

London-Nov. 12-FWN--THE AVERAGE DAILY TURNOVER OF GOLD and silver showed strong rises in October, the London Bullion Market Association reported today.

Average daily gold turnover was 42 million ounces, the highest since statistics were first compiled in October 1996. Average volume exceeded the September level by 22% and exceeded the level seen a year ago by 53%.

The average afternoon fixing price for gold in October, at $324.87 per ounce, was slightly above September's $322.82, making for a steep rise in the value of daily turnover in October to $13.6 billion, compared to $11.1 billion in September and $10.5 billion a year ago.

Turnover in the silver market continued its recent rise, hitting a record level of 345.5 million ounces in October, up 10% from September and an increase of 24% from a year earlier.

The average price for silver in October, based on the London spot fix, was $5.03 per ounce, up from $4.73 in September. The average daily value of turnover in October was $1.7 billion, the highest level recorded since these statistics began, the LBMA said.

The number of transfers recorded in both markets was sharply higher in October compared with both September and year-ago levels. While silver transfers were at a record daily level of 592, the number of gold transfers, at 1,326 a day, was below levels seen in the first quarter of 1997.

The LBMA said the high level of turnover seen in the gold market in October was stimulated by weakness in the gold price. After some recovery at the end of September, the London afternoon fix fell during October from $337.15 to $311.40 at the end of the month. Most of the decline occurred in the second half of the month, following the recommendation of a Swiss expert group that the Swiss National Bank should dispose of part of its gold reserves, the LBMA said.

During the month there was a high level of physical demand, particularly from the Middle East, but turnover was generally driven by an extremely high level of activity in the forward market, the LBMA said.

The organization noted that the silver market also saw a price fall during October, declining from $5.18 to $4.82. The spot market was subdued, while the forward market was busy, the LBMA said.

Yuppie lemming birthrates have dropped dramatically in 1998. The main reason cited was a tremendous thinning in the herded population as they compete for food. Once cute furry little creatures have turned on their own young. Desperate measures are in order. Their diet of over printed paper has been supplemented with newly ground paradigm 401K forms and promissory notes from the US government.

Keep in mind the possibility of a turnaround in
the XAU based on the Full Moon cycle this Fri.
If it's going to turn, this could be the time frame.

DA: Your 8:46. This is what I was asking about last night. Central banks could borrow gold, sell it and use the proceeds to buy dollars. As long as dollar interest yields are high, the dollar is strong, and gold is plentiful and dropping in price -- this is a great way to make money, and generate extra reserves during a currency crisis.
Then -- gold starts going in the wrong direction, or the dollar drops, and the world-wide plunge protection team steps in and loans gold ( or sells it ) to keep this scheme in operation. As you say, it would be easy to hide. Isn't this what ANOTHER was talking about, or a close facsimile? This would explain a lot, wouldn't it? Eventually the gold loan business saturates, and the CB's have to sell gold, or let all of this unwind.
Do I have this right? I know very little about the gold loans trade, so I might not have the terminology correct. Lets hope the current crisis blows over before the CB's run out of gold loans, or things will be worse later. Comments anyone? Any gold loan guru's?

Does anyone know why the quotes posted here are running a dollar below those future source current quotes?

shm: I wasn't sure. Sorry. Kitco may be the only place. Anybody out there, can you help shm looking for spot prices?

Just read an article in the local newspaper "JAPAN'S ECONOMY IN NEAR STATE OF PANIC". By Bernard Kaplan - Hearst newspapers.
If anyone has access online, please post it......

Yes Mike S. A little bird has been in my ear here to make me hear there. This will be the mover when the time comes. You have mentioned it countless times and I have 'seen' it myself...

now...

What is it and why have I 'seen' it?? It must be good ( when the time comes ) otherwise it would not have 'come across' my desk.

away...to be more vague...huh?


Futures follow Spot ( cash ) ...gold is going...................


aWaY!
ountiful$

David - Your 8:46 is excellent conjecture! Congrats on another great post!
No Mercy - "Date: Wed Nov 12 1997 08:51
nomercy ( S&P warns of global spread of Asian banking malaise )
ID#390214:
Debt-rating agency Standard & Poor's has warned
that turmoil in international financial markets could
have negative effects on many banks worldwide. ...."
Let's face it folks - 'turmoil in international financial markets' WILL have 'negative effects on many' -nations, markets and peoples- 'worldwide.' It's called RECESSION. IF this turmoil and meltdown in Asia is not quelled VERY shortly, we are in for very troubling times world-wide.
Yesterday JTF commented that I live in a sort of international meca known as Toronto. This statement has some truth in it and , for example, Toronto has a very large Chinese population. There are whole malls almost entirely dedicated to catering to the Chinese population.
I maintain a small speculative account with a young ( mid-thirties ) Chinese-Canadian broker in one of the largest of these malls. As A type of survey of the sentiment of the Toronto's Chinese populations feelings' in the wake of the HK meltdown I toured this mall yesterday. I was more shocked then I thought I would be. The crowds were down to a trickle of what they were only a month ago. Many worried and sad ( and shocked actually ) looking faces. I continued into my Broker's office and after a bit of market banter I put my real questions to him. "How is this HK meltdown affecting his Canadian Chinese customers? "Depressed" He went so far as to tell me that his father and his father's friends ( you can bet they had money ) are very depressed. Multiply this by every single investor in the HK market ( Chinese and others all around the world ) . What do we have. Millions of depressed people.
Mooney's Math Lesson # 162 - "Depressed investors, dealing with depressed markets = DEPRESSION"
Hope for the best folks, but prepare for the worst.
BUY GOLD. ( and Silver )
BBML

Skylark: Korean gold trade. There are some dead banks out there for sure. I wonder what happens if a gold shipment does not get paid for if the 180 day parked money is lost in a bank failure?

Quote off of gold-eagle.com opening page. Can we play this as a tape for the lemmings before the Greenspam imposter sits down.

"The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists ( government bureaucrats ) to use the banking system as an unlimited expansion of credit. In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation... Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process."

  Alan Greenspan

?????????????

Interesting article. It said it was against the law for S Korea's CB to BUY or SELL bullion, I wonder if it's OK to LEASE?

Has anyone out there in lemmingville put 1+1 together yet. The world awaits the words of ONE MAN, REPRESENTING THE CENTRAL BANK.

Keywords ONE and CENTRAL, don't you get it. One man and something central is the kiss of death. No ONE and no CENTRAL anything should have that much power.

Coined money - gold and silver. Two hundred years later and the lemmings don't get it. GOLD AND SILVER are the only real money.

Greenspan didn't know much when he said that, I suppose. He is much wiser now.

DONALD: The article goes on to say: "South Korean bullion firms are
extremely unlikely to default on deferred payments for huge gold
imports, despite growing concerns over the country's financial
health, because the companies' financial reputations would be
shattered and they are backed by South Korea's giant "chaebol"
industrial groups, local dealers said on Wednesday. The companies most active in South Korea's gold trade, including Hyundai Samsung and Daewoo are also the country's largest and financially strongest industrial groupings and, as in the case of LG Metals Corp and Korea Zinc Co Ltd, actually produce goldthemselves."

Oh, and a note of caution for all you holders of Mutual Funds. They are not insured. Zip, zero, nada, bubkis, gone goodbye outta here. If your mutual fund starts to get clanked, you get clanked.

Stock Market 101 - Buy low, Sell high.

Would you follow your broker into battle?

Is this the begining of world deflation or are the CBs still trying to manipulate gold????? Bourses down all of the world, some big Japanese banks are close to insolvency and gold is dropping!Anyone can explain where we might be?? What the hell is going on !!

Do sleep-walkers have to have pie-in-the-eye
before realization of something being amiss
crosses their mind?

currencies are going to be the straw that breaks the
bulls back. the financial melt-down on an international
scale cannot be propped-up by the imf or the fed and their
minions. the fiat currencies of the world are fixing to
realize their intrinsic worth in an event of diasporitic
proportions.

this run-up in paper valuations------equities, and curriencies
is over.

gold may never rise over 330 again, but the paper-tiger breathes
her last gasps even as it is reported, and not believed by the
masses. things go on for-ever, right?

heading back to s california and will be back in vegas the 21'st.
ted------time for a road trip......

cherokee!; ) planning-for-a-bitter-harvest-in-grains-------in-'98

Hashimoto's assistant,
Here is the quote from Hashimoto:
Supposing the Japanese government sold some of its Treasury holdings, I think that the American economy has the underlying strength to withstand this. ***But*** would such an action not have a large impact? This is what I want everyone to reflect on.
READ IT AGAIN
What he said is that Japan had considered selling the treasuries, and although the US is strong enough to withstand it, the impact on rest of the world would be devastating!
Japan WILL NOT sell.
If need be Japan and other SE Asian countries will be sacreficed to preserve the global system ( at any price ) .

Steady: Hang tuff. All in good time. All in good time. What time does Greenspam go on puppet lemmingvision?

Tolerant1-AG may be an imposter but he is the only visable face of an invisible and true government.

DONALD: The most compelling issue represented by the article is not whether bullion payments will be made but what will the effect be on the bullion trade if these Korean firms slow down their purchases. A second compelling issue to consider is the reported record LBMA volume for October and particularly the large physical demand coming from the mid East in contrast to recent media reports state that physical demand has been reduced due to local dishoarding and other currency related factors. This is the first time I have seen a break-down of the LBMA statistics as to what categories the trading has occurred and presents an insight as the reasoning for the high volume. It is interesting to note the corelation between the high volume in the OTC market coinciding with a drop in the COMEX. In a related matter, IMO too much is made of the reduction in the COMEX warehouse stocks. Unlike silver, as demonstrated by the LBMA turnover, gold is everywhere and a reduction in the warehouse stocks probably has minor significance to the trade - unlike a reduction in silver warehouse stocks.

Shek: Are you telling me Japan and Asia are going to sacrifice themselves for the good of the world. Oh no.

This reminds me of the cartoon where the russians put out a press release that the Head of Afghanistan commited suicide for the good of the country and left a note saying so.

Ah yaaaa. Not.

tolerant1, re:10:12
You are getting over excited. Nothing will change.
In an ideal world gold and silver would rule. But we live in a selfish world. 95% of people have no gold and want no gold. They want food TV and beer. In order to maintain their lifestyles they will continue supporting the system at any price. Look at AG. 34 years ago he was a goldbug, today as a matter of expediency he is a paperbug. Why?
1. It gives him power, position and lifestyle.
2. He knows the alternative is very dark for MOST people.
You are a goldbug, but if the change will cost many lives, many ruined businesses and families, social strife and pgysical danger, do YOU want the change?

Steady: It is obvious that the lemmings don't get it. We elect a president but we don't elect the Central Bankers. The president and WE the People don't have a say in the Central Banks.

Oh and one other minute detail. We can not inspect their books.

Hmmmmmm. Sweet deal.

tolerant1,
The decision to sacrefice will be made by the governments not the people. And governments dont suffer.
Asian people have a very long history of suffering and sacerfice for their families, emperors etc. It will happen again. What also can Indonesia, Korea, HK or any other country do?

tolerant1,
Don't forget that MOST people prefer comfortable slavery to rough freedom.
Paper offers comfortable slavery. Gold offers rough freedom.

LATEST ON CURRENCIES

Internationally acclaimed market analyst, James Dines, shares his insights and foresights with us about current currency crisis.

Asia is awash in hammered & cascading currencies. The deluge of devaluations in South East Asia is spilling over into other countries on the opposite side of the globe -- and will wreak havoc in world stock markets. The Currency Contagion continues unabated...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/dines1110.html

Shek: I read your words. They are hollow my friend. I am no goldbug. I believe in the Constitution of the United States. The very reasons the Founding Fathers pounded the words coined gold and silver into that document are clear.

The death, famine, disruption will be specifically due to the Central Banks, Federal Reserve, and Politicians.

They deserve nothing less then full criminal prosecution under the law of the land. Nothing less.

And believe me the figment standard paper will hit the fan and when the smoke clears the people will have ropes and then you will truly see the madness of the crowds.

The system is based on illegal paper and lies. Do you think that people want to live their lives atop that tower my friend. I don't think so. At present there are roughly 2billion very pissed off people. And that number will grow.

It seems that the crack of the whip in 1929 was not forceful enough. The individuals toying with these markets have created problems that are now out of their hands.

All the wishful thinking under the sun will not make the markets desire to get back to reality fade.

Todays lecture: Man, Master of the Universe has been cancelled due to the weather.

Shek wrote "You are a goldbug, but if the change will cost many lives, many ruined businesses and families, social strife and pgysical danger, do YOU want the change?"

Shek, you and everyone else DON'T have a choice. What is coming is what you & paper-pushing feel-good manipulators have brought down on yourselves & the world. Do not blame we goldbugs for pointing that you have set into action events that will ultimately destroy your illusory world. You've lived well raping the world with bad money, inflated money, lies & disinformation. That REALITY will ultimately reassert itself and reveal Social Security, Medicaid, Welfare, 401Ks, KEOGs, IRAs and the grossly inflated Stock market to be frauds is merely expected. Human nature ***never*** changes. Take what wisdom you can from these voices crying in the wilderness of paper and protect at least some of your wealth from paper inflation confiscation. The paper-louses have made their choices, lived well and now will pay. I have made my choices, protected my wealth from paper-inflation confication via gold. I now control my financial destiny directly. You ... you live at the whim of the Bankers ... a fawning puppy, tail wagging, waiting for another crumb. Reject their control! Assert that you will use lawful money, as defined by the US Constitution and 5,000 years of human history.

tolerant1,
I also believe in the US Constitution.
American's rights are slowly taken away from them, everyone talks about it, but no one does anything about it. Yes, CBs and the FED are the problem - what are we going to do about it. Nothing. The sytem will continue because everyone talks about it and does nothing about it. Even you participate in the system, don't you. You use cash, have credit crads and mortgages. How are you going to live without it?

It's extraordinary, what you can do

with leftovers, sometimes

due to the waste

not want not echoes

of admonishment.

You don't know

what it means to be hungry,

wear patched hand-me-downs

and then the wrong size,

the soles so thin of someone else's boots,

your feet bruised and wet,

and no work, no jobs at all.

We do not know about no jobs.

We change the subject.

Shek, may I suggest your words: "Paper offers comfortable slavery. Gold offers rough freedom." would make a fine epitaph for those who will be crushed in the coming debacle:

"I lived & died a comfortable slave,
puppet of paper-masters. I had everything
in life one could desire, save freedom."

Ben Franklin, that marginalized dead white male wrote:

"Those who trade a little freedom for a little security,
soon shall have neither."

Shek: it's not what we "want", it's what HAS to be. Most people are not manic depressives that talk the "doom and gloom" talk to get off. Also, nobody is really stupid, even if they are totally sleepwalking through life, like most people. Deep down, you intrinsically KNOW when something "ain't right".

Yes, the credit bubble is "wonderful and a joy", golly, just think of all the houses, cars, businesses, and other big things people could afford for the last 60 years even when they didn't have the money up front.

Sure, that's nice, but when you're dealing with thieves and scounderels and they head up your world markets and banks, this little "dream scenario" is NOT going to end pretty. You take a shaky system and you put the wolves in charge ... how in the world do you think it's going to end?? Not to even mention the usual "goldbug" mantras of "gold is good, fiat isn't!"

For those here who are more "paranoid", here's what I think will happen: world market decline will continue AND gold will also FALL in price.

If you want what gold can offer you, BUY it every chance you get when it's low and KEEP it for when it can reward you.

If you want to "make money" on gold, excuse me but, you are a fool.

Watch the markets and see how things turn out...

Torfeasor: Do you think that WalMart employee that turned off bucking Bronco is for hire? Perhaps the plunge protection team needs an extra pair of hands. He was a bit late, though. ----
Good to have some humor on this site -- we are chronicling the collapse of paper on this site, I think. Fortunate that we have an excellent Fed Chairman or things would be much worse. The dollar and the world's currency system comes first, then the markets.

Spud Master,
What I write on this site is not what I want to continue, but what I think will continue. Humans seek safety, security, full bellies and little effort. Paper ( because it can be created ) offers easy credit, easy money no hard work. That is what most people want.Gold requires work, honesty, effort, discipline. Do you thing that is what MOST people want. If our current system gets close to a collapse, People of the world will want it replaced with improved paper system. Im being realistic.

Shawn,
I agree with you.

Brazil with its world's 6th largest economy ( 4th w/o China&Russia?? ) is going to set off Latin America if the decline continues much further. Down another 6.5% today.

Shek and Tolerant 1, Americans gave up their rights willingly for a empty promise of Social Security.

To: Nick@Aussie, D.A.@A.Wild.Theory.Not;A.Goose>D.A.@A.Wild.Theory.Not;A.Goose

Overslept so missed the open, but looking at the tape, it appears it is taking more and more to accomplish less? Is this a fair assessment about resource utilization?

Your shrimping/sea post last night--I didn't know the Force of Few Words ( Poetry ) had its own inheritable gene! Your Dad's not the only poet. Very evocative piece of writing that just flowed ( pun unintentional )

D.A.@A.Wild.Theory

Brillant. Better the "impossible probable than the improbable possible. I vote Yes. Now please come up with a theory that covers how they hope to handle the dollar coming home tidal wave. THAT's their national security problem and what, to my mind, has really been behind the battle against gold. Perception is NOT reality. As they may soon discover.

Shek: REF: YOUR COMMENT - "Don't forget that MOST people prefer comfortable slavery to rough freedom. Paper offers comfortable slavery. Gold offers rough freedom."

Unfortunately, I cannot refute your statement as I am not in contact with "MOST" people as you would have us believe you are. Nevertheless, this was EXACTLY THE SAME RATIONALIZATION voiced by MOST people -- which prevailed in 1929! Although I was not there, ALL historians emphatically assert that was the "Blue Skies" song sung by all Americans just before the GREAT CRASH. Regrettably, the painful outcome will repeat. Just as governments refused to take the necessary measures in 1929 to prevent the looming financial debacle - because it was politically unpopular, present day governments are avoiding their sworn duty to serve and protect the people.

The "BLUE SKIES" song of unbridled optimism has become Wall Street's favorite melody, which inevitably and eventually will become its swan-song.

Blue Skies, smilin at me, nothin but Blue Skies do I see...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/blue_skys.html

Shek: My friend. I have no charge cards, no mortgage, I barely participate in the "system." My father was in the intelligence community of the United States Government, when you could tell one side from the other. My father resigned when the US began bringing Nazi's over to America and folding them into society like a chocolate maker creating a mixture. My mother is British.

My father spoke nine languages that he would admit to, mother plays a better games of cards and claims to be monolingual. My mother to date has yet to lose a game of scrabble. My father lived on three different continents, my mother on two.

Believe me, there are many who will arise to take these criminals to task. The worse it gets, the easier to track the trail to the ones that send these waterboys named Greenspan and Kissinger.

Not all who watch and wait are sinister and evil. Not all who watch and wait are deluded with a sense of one central power governing.

There are many phantoms waiting to take form. Everything in time my friend. The only thing that is universal are the laws which can not be altered by man.

The only way evil can win is if good people do nothing.

Again,wish I was goin with ya.....Will have ta settle for my little casino in Sydney,which is where I'll shortly be....BBML kiddies

Skylark:

Thanks for the post. It is most interesting. If my conjecture is correct it would be a central bank operation rather than an operation of the commercial banks which as has been noted are prohibited from gold dealing. In any event there would be complete denial of such activity because its publication would also be it undoing. I know this sounds like a clip from a movie and it is a little far fetched but it is fun to muse upon such things.

The first paragraph of the article gave me quite a chuckle. I will paste it beside my collection of other statements from financial 'powerhouses' that thought so highly of their own staying power. I could fill up a book with the rantings of the Malaysian PM about how the currency would be defended and the speculators would be brought to their knees.

Perhaps the bullion houses which are short gold denominated in Won are the ones who are about to get blasted. In an environment such as this where there are enormous stresses in the system it is impossible to know what is going to crack when. From an investment standpoint just keep your eyes on those parts of the system which are leveraged and where bets have been generally in one direction. These are the areas which are prone to dislocation. Along with the financial markets of the world the gold market fits into this description but in the reverse.

All: USAgold, in its Nov 11 daily post yesterday, said that a European Central Bank is being formed, and that a "gold-backed euro" has taken center stage. Does anyone know which country will be the site of this bank, and whether each member country is expected to have gold bullion assets? If that 1990 Warwick, UK Economic symposium describing secretly going to the gold standard accurately summarized what will happen, each member country will need to have a minimum of gold in their Central Bank. Also Japan will have to follow suit. Wonder what they will sell to buy gold? I guess more importantly to us is when? Maybe my idea of a new gold-backed currency coming out of England, or ? wasn't so crazy after all.
I wonder, will this gold-backed euro be the new ECU/EMU? If it is, the secret transition to the "gold standard" was well orchestrated!
I think the spin doctors will have a great time explaining why all of a sudden gold is so important again. What worries me is that this transition to a gold backed euro must be done very carefully, or the current problems with "paper" will remain. What will become of the US dollar?

JTF: European Central Bank supposed to be in Germany

Irving,
I do not disagree with you. We have had crashes and UNFORTUNATELY paper still is perferred by most. We will have crashes in the future, and most ( not me ) will prefer paper.

JTF
SDRer has been talking about this for a long time ( to me ) . I believe the bank is to be located in Germany ( for obvious reasons ) . The banking of gold for the ecu is nothing new, it has been planned since the start. SDRer is the one that should follow up on this ( she has been researching this also )

I wonder how the citizens of the United States are going to feel when they realize they never got their freedom. Just colonized, only to see the seat of power returned to Europe after a brief 200 hundred or so years.

I'll bet alot of downhome folks all across America are just going to love that.

George, Ben, and Thomas must be rolling in their graves at the mention of such.

SDRer

My last 'shrimper' was the "Bountiful Pearl"
And every season I would paint a 'pot of gold'
On the splashguard of the wheel house roof.
I always believed in searching for my 'pot of gold'

Banana prawns, are a very yellow species of prawn,
Hence the name.
They school up in massive schools.
And one can catch vast amounts,
In a short period of time.

I used to spend a lot of time searching,
For these schools of prawns,
And they were like trying to find a 'needle in a haystack'.
Hence the expression 'pot of gold

This was back in time, before I had a computer,
Ever read a financial paper, or bought a share.
Before I ever knew about the 'net'
Or had heard of Kitco.

Time changes many things, immeasurably.

Shek: Your statement does not show sensitivity to, nor demonstrate empathy for the millions of working Americans, whose hard-earned savings will be trashed down Wall Street's toilet, once the Bubble Bursts. Would you not shout out to the blindman who was walking straight toward an open manhole cover? Would you not dash to stop the small child from running into the path of a speeding car? Then why not try to illuminate the average American who unfortunately has neither the time nor background to realize the looming financial danger on the horizon.

After All

Sensationalism is applique on news
reports, often slip-stitched, mere tacking.
It is safer - easier - thus to shift
the items, piece by transitory piece.

Palimpsests apparently erase events
of yesterday. They can be picked out,
removed for later emphasis by some
omniscient terrier.
There's complacence
about complaint, no obligation
to read, listen, watch, lick the surface
flavor of everything about everything
and everyone. There are, after all,
digest reports that prevent
total ignorance.
Longevity is limited.
There's the quality of life to be
considered until you are forced to
take up arms or refuse,
and sleep identical sleep, you
and the enemy and yesterday's news.

Wednesday, November 12, 1997
Wave of layoffs announced - and more are coming

NEW YORK ( AP-CP ) - Not yet a month after a major study concluded that downsizings are declining, the jobs of more than 15,000 workers are being eliminated so that five more companies can fit into their ever-tightening fiscal belts.

Also Tuesday, Fruit of the Loom was ousting 2,900, Waste Management was letting 1,200 go, electronic components maker Kemet Corp. was saying goodbye to 1,000 and Donna Karan International was giving up 15 per cent of its workforce, some 285 people.

Late last month, the American Management Association issued a report saying that companies were hiring again after years of widespread layoffs and shakeups. Downsizing, the AMA said, was at its lowest level of the 1990s.

But the same day the report came out, Citicorp announced the elimination of 7,500 jobs.

"The overall economy is at full employment ... but individual firms face competitive problems," said C. Fred Bergsten, director of the Institute for International Economics in Washington. "That continues in bad times and good times."

Even so, Bergsten said, some companies "turned out not to have done it right the first time" and additional correction is required.
"Rightsizing is never over," Bergsten said. "I think it will continue indefinitely."
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/MoneyNews/nov12_layoffs.html

Irving,
I see your point and I will do my part.

Wednesday, November 12, 1997
Russian stocks plunge with world markets

MOSCOW ( AP ) - Russian stocks plummeted nine per cent Wednesday, undermined by turmoil on other emerging markets. The Russian Trading System index closed at 350.01, down from 385.69 Tuesday. The reported volume in the electronic trading system was light at $62 million, down from $51 million a day earlier.

The market was nearly shut down near the end of trading, when the main index almost surpassed the daily loss allowed under trading rules.

"Fear is dominating the market here," said Martin Diggle, head of trading at Brunswick Brokerage in Moscow. "There are absolutely no brave souls stepping in to buy."

Traders said that after recent declines, many blue-chip issues should be attractive. But with the turmoil in other emerging markets, sophisticated investors are waiting for the market to fall further. Russia had been one of the high-flying emerging markets until the recent financial gyrations.

Dmitry Yevenko, head of trading at United City Bank in Moscow, said the Russian market's losses may be exaggerated by a lack of liquidity and poor market infrastructure. "As soon as the world markets stop declining, Russia is likely to rise very quickly," he said. "It's just rather modest client sales which, as a result of low liquidity, push the market down. There's no massive selling."

D.A. : Brother Aronstein, I think you've got it! Gold is being sold to finance the meltdown. Question: Why are the Roths ( with their immense gold hoard ) going along with this?

I thought I would put myself in others shoes and try to see what my thinking would be in this crazy financial environment. Just some thoughts, for what is worth, I don.t know; but, I feel that I have to get a handle on what economic relationships are driving Gold up and down.

Japan: I no longer can or will buy the dollar down. Therefore, the US$ will rise with the Yen going lower. Due to the increase in the value of the US$, I will use my US$ to buy Gold and Oil, because it will now take less dollars to buy them now. Why should I buy the US Bonds. I can buy Oil @ $20 and Gold @ $309 with the my appreciated US$s. Plus if I am correct my products will be cheaper/ more competitive in the US than yours. My people are not buying your stuff anyway.

Japan: If you dont want me to sell my US Bonds, the value of which is questionable, and with my Yen is deflating, you have to let me continue buying Oil at $20/barrel.

Oil Producers: If you are going to pay me with deflated Yen and overvalued US$ which are really worth less now than they were a month ago, and if you dont want to pay more than $20/barrel, you have to lower the price of Gold for me.

Oil Producers: You have to increase our profits and financial security if we are to maintain the political status quo. Either stop the Iraqi export of Oil, which will decrease the supply driving up the price, and/or keep the price of gold down.

The questions are: Is Gold a better investment than US$, US Bonds, or anything else for Japan and the Oil Producers? Are the Oil producers and Japan buying Gold?
Considering the World economic situation, If you were in their shoes would you be using Gold as your medium for exchange, investment, collateral, etc. or would you be using the Yen, US$, HK$, Peso, the Pound, the Mark, Euro$, or some other PAPER?

The Gold standard is hidden by direct, indirect, and inverse relationships with many commodities and currencies; however, In my mind I always come back to Gold as the standard for all material exchange.

The fact that Gold is behaving the way it is, may be a positive indication of the importance of Gold - as a major player in the complex economic relationships that exist today. The same relationships that have always existed.

Any thoughts from Another or others would be appreciated.

ARDEN: re your 9:38...that IS the central pricing question! What is your best guess? ...anyone else??

westerman,
You wrote: "Would you not shout out to the blindman who was walking straight toward an open manhole cover? Would you not dash to stop the small child from running into the path of a speeding car? Then why not try to illuminate the average American who unfortunately has neither the time nor background to realize the looming financial danger on the horizon."
This is exactly what I am doing. I am saying based on our knowledge of the human nature, what is the most probable outcome after the crsh?
More paper - we never learn from our mistakes.

November 12, 1997
U.S. Fed policy-makers meet, rates seen steady

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Federal Reserve policy-makers met Wednesday to consider interest rate strategy amid widespread expectations they will keep borrowing costs steady despite signs of a tight labor market. A Federal Reserve spokeswoman said the central bank's Federal Open Market Committee began its scheduled meeting at 9 a.m. EST. An announcement of any decision was expected at about 2:15 p.m. EST.


Greenspan warned in congressional testimony two weeks ago that the U.S. economy was "drawing down unused labor resources at an unsustainable pace".

The FOMC's last meeting this year is scheduled for Dec. 16, and its first 1998 meeting for Feb. 3 and 4.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/ECONOMY-FED.html

November 12, 1997
RESEARCH ALERT - Echo Bay Mines raised

NEW YORK, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - Morgan Stanley Dean Witter said it raised its rating on Echo Bay Mines Ltd to neutral from underperform. -- Although Morgan sees few positives in the company's fundamentals, the stock's recent weakness has brought its valuation back in line with the rest of the gold group. -- But Echo Bay remains a very high-cost producer, its exploration pipeline is now almost completely dry and its
third-quarter restructuring charge of $310 million has eroded the company's equity base. -- Echo has posted losses for 12 straight quarters and is likely to continue the streak through 1999, Morgan said. The best the company can hope for is a major rebound in gold prices, which Morgan does not foresee until at least mid-1998. -- Echo Bay was up 1/16 at 3-7/16 in early American Stock Exchange trading.

Folly, Frenzy and Fear, those Careless are
The fates that mould our destinies, and shape
The grave dishonesties, deceits, that mar
Our work, our very loves, our art
Stir the dark anxieties, the mortal pains
The dark and deadly pride that stains
The living dying heart.

We mime the random measure of their art
Act out the torment of their aimless play
Suffer all things with numb unfeeling heart
The less their wilful torment day by day
Or wanton, toss to waste our life in play.

Only that man,
Who steadfast stands apart
And cries his manhood, cries aloud - I AM
Will be free of such dire fates
Only thus be saved,
Be his own man.

This morning. I've not seen so many well-written, thoughtful, challenging posts...Everyone ( whether or no I happen to agree with a particular point ) is super-charged. A joy to read.

Tolerant 1--fine writing. Fine

JTF: The day you make an insane comment...Good post. Have you got a time line on this ( Euro-gold ) . Because the thing that I think happened, circa 93-94, was the global intelligence that the Europeans hadn't changed much in the last 50 years; this brought forward the potential of the SDR, the next basket for which will include China. And perhaps the quid pro quos for China ( who had previously announced gold-link ) is more Probable.

China is, whether or no we like it, the 500 pound gorilla.

November 12, 1997
Bundesbank confirms lending gold, but not selling

FRANKFURT, Germany ( Reuters ) - The Bundesbank on Wednesday confirmed it had been lending gold to offset some of the costs of maintaining its 3,700 metric tons of gold reserves, but Germany's central bank firmly denied any plans to sell part of its gold store.

Flooded by inquiries amid a fresh bout of market speculation about central bank gold sales, the Bundesbank issued a clear statement: "Selling gold reserves is not an issue for the Bundesbank. The Bundesbank has absolutely no intentions of selling gold."

It gave no details of the extent of its gold-lending activities other than that they were "restricted," had been going on for some time, and were a common practice among most central banks.

The German central bank, which this summer torpedoed government plans to revalue gold reserves to ease Germany's path to European monetary union, has repeatedly denied it plans to sell any of its gold in the face of recurring speculation.

Gold prices have been hovering at their lowest levels in more than a decade, pressured after the Dutch central bank said it had sold 300 metric tons of gold in January and after Switzerland indicated it might sell 1,400 metric tons of gold.

The Bundesbank itself was reportedly the cause of the latest bout of gold sales talk. German news reports said speculation began after a visit to London in September by Bundesbank directorate member Peter Schmidhuber, who reportedly met with three companies that participate in gold fixing to discuss market liquidity.

Die Welt newspaper said the Bundesbank had been lending gold, mainly to foreign banks, for about a year, and that the income generated appeared under the interest income item on its profit and loss sheet.

The central bank itself would only say: "The Bundesbank has carried out gold lending on a restricted basis for a long time, like most other central banks. It thus generates a contribution to covering the costs of maintaining the gold."

Germany's daily Boersen-Zeitung, citing market estimates, said the Bundesbank may be lending some 10 percent of its gold reserves, generating returns of some $70 million a year.

U.S. Fed policy-makers meet, AG's briefcase looked FAT and Heavy, this has been a sure sign/indication in the past that they are going to raise rates

Clearly the banks are getting vocal, "Oh NO, NO, NO, we are not selling our gold."

I wonder why they are so vocal about not selling. Hmmmmm.

As in the last number of sessions: Up from what the market is 1/2 into trading. Then buying? comes in for couple of hours and down from there. Today's top of 7540 is in and probably down from here.

HighRise ( @ Still Trying to Figure This Out ) : Your thoughts ring with LOGIC and CLARITY.

No plans/intentions "to sell" - watch the tense. Imaginot

DA The Korean Aricle and the high LBMA turnover evidence that there is much that goes on in the gold market which may affect price than is generally known and/or reported by supposedly knowledgible pundits; and the hazzards to attempt to attribute a reason for movement in price by what is reported only in the media.. In regard to Korea, I wonder if the bullion houses are now borrowing gold on a contango basis in view of currency loses in playing the interest rate spread, which may account for high lease rates, and what will be the affect of the reduction in bullion trade on the price of gold by the Korean houses? When considering that the record volume in the LBMA is attributed largely to forward sales, this would imply that the recent increase in COT short speculative interest is also being matched by such activity in the OTC - which could mean that record global short positions are being established. But if this is so, the fact that bullion has not fallen further than it has implies that the bullion market is being supported by other "unknown buyers" which of course is bullish. Unfortunately, recent leading stocks such as ASA and HM do not support this or any other bullish theory.

Thank you all for your insight into the Korean/Interest Rate arbitrage situation. I am still trying to digest it all.

Attached is today's precious metals article from the same source as yesterday. There is no mention of Korea today but there is an interesting comment about rumors on ECB and gold reserves.

http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5914334-73f

If you were AG and the Dow is down only 40pts today after a terrible down turn in the rest of the world, and you know, as every one does, that if you do not raise rates the Dow will rise right back to new highs; what would you do?

Sorry for the typos in the exchange post - I get going to fast sometimes.

Wednesday November 12, 12:11 pm Eastern Time

Russia, E.Europe stocks hit as investors turn tail

By Ben Hirschler

LONDON, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - Russian and eastern Europe stocks dived on Wednesday as investors, running scared of more Asian market turmoil, bailed out of the region, analysts and fund managers in London said.

Leading Russian stocks fell around 10 percent while Hungary's BUX index dropped nearly eight percent, Poland fell four percent and Czech Republic two percent.

Russia, which has attracted a flood of ``hot money'' portfolio investments this year, has been hardest hit by the recent global market shake-out -- and is still seen as the most vulnerable to further falls.

``Poland and Hungary are getting caught in the backwash from Russia,'' said Martin Taylor, fund manager at Baring Asset Management which has over $1 billion in eastern Europe.

``Regional funds tend to have a very large exposure to Russia and if regional funds have redemptions it creates a domino effect.''

The Russian stock market has fallen 35 percent since hitting a record high in early October, damaged by Asian fallout and a surge in the country's debt risk premium which has seen spreads on the benchmark 10-year dollar eurobond double to 700 basis points over U.S. Treasuries.

Yet Russian stock prices are still 80 percent up on the start of the year, tempting many investors to book profits in case things get worse.

``In the case of Russia, and to some extent also of Hungary, investors are trying to lock in what have been very nice profits so far this year,'' said Ed Butchart, emerging Europe strategist at Merrill Lynch.

``It's getting towards to the end of the year and it doesn't make sense to try and stay in the market for 10 percent upside if there is danger of 40 percent downside.''

The bearish mood has been exacerbated by Monday's hike in the Russian central bank's refinancing rate to 28 from 21 percent.

The move, part of a package designed to bolster the rouble, has encouraged banks to bail out of debt-financed equity holdings. Higher rates could also dampen growth and corporate prospects in 1998, analysts said.

Butchart is braced for more short-term turmoil but believes that in the long term current Russian prices offer opportunity.

Jonathan Garner, of Robert Fleming, agrees. He recommended at the end of October that investors switch to Poland from Russia, but has a neutral weighting for Russia within a model portfolio for the region.

``We still think leading blue chips like LukOil ( LKOH.RTS ) , Rostelekom ( RTKM.RTS ) and UES ( EESR.RTS ) are underpinned by highly attractive assets valuations at these levels,'' he said.

John-Paul Smith, equities analyst at Morgan Stanley, and a long-time Russia bear, is not convinced. The Russian stock market rally has been built on sand and investors are now waking up to reality, he contends.

``People are just starting to focus on the fact that this market was built on very little in terms of corporate and economic fundamentals...I expect the market to be back to start-of-year levels by end of December,'' he said.

Smith expects mounting pressure from investors seeking to redeem units in Russian funds.

``People running specialist Russia funds are probably going to come under a lot of pressure to redeem units -- and if they are heavily invested in second liners their only option is to sell the more liquid stocks,'' he said.

tolerant1-I totally agree with your posts today, but to bring the world's financial manipulators to justice you first would have to know who they are. They are invisible as the names of owners of FRB. The only private corporation that can not be audited and whose "shareholders" names are unknown. AG is perhaps one of the very few visible faces. He just delivers the messages.

November 12, 1997
Brazil left protests against fiscal measures

BRASILIA ( Reuters ) - Honking horns and blowing whistles, left-wing demonstrators brought the center of the Brazilian capital to a standstill Wednesday in protest at tough budget cuts the government announced to shore up the economy.

Public servants, landless representatives and the labor movement hurled abuse at President Fernando Henrique Cardoso, while an opinion poll showed the majority of Brazilians agreed that the spending cuts and tax hikes were necessary.

"Once again Fernando Henrique has adopted dictatorial methods in decreeing these measures without any consultation of the people," the head of Brazil's giant CUT trade union confederation, Vicente Paulo da Silva, told the demonstrators.


Eighty-eight percent believed an explosion in joblessness would be the direct result. "The people continue to support the government. But the measures adopted Monday have alarmed them," Vox Populi director Marcos Coimbra told Correio.Vox Populi questioned 500 people across the country by telephone Monday night. No margin of error was given.

In contrast to the national opinion survey, a more targeted polling in Brazil's industrial heartland of Sao Paulo, which would bear the brunt of any recession, found 57 percent of people wholly rejected the fiscal package.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/BRAZIL-ECONOMY.html

Steady: Hmmmm, not everything can be a whisper in a dark room, with the window shades drawn. What's the term, hmmm. Hackers, yeah that's it.

Somewhere, somehow, I think information may just start surfacing on the WWW. Just a wacky guess. Trust me on this next one. WHY DO YOU THINK THE GOVERMENTS OF THE WORLD ARE TERRIFED OF THE INTERNET?

What goes around, comes around.

I hear Calypso music, yeah mon.

D.A.@Wild.Theory: You have to include in your calculations the actual sales required to fill the supply/demand gap. If your theory is true, then the CB's have been burning the candle from both sides - gold loans used for currency stabilization and gold sales to fill the supply/demand gap.

Despite all the negative press with respect to CB gold sales the current announced sales are a drop in the bucket compared to the requirements over the next few years. If, in fact, there has also been considerable gold "leasing" by CB's ( potentially indicated by very high LBMA volumes, particularly in times of crises ) then there may actually be much less gold left on the shelf than the oft cited "10 years supply".

The ice here could be a lot thinner than anyone imagines...

Brazil stock market was 6% down 30 minutes ago, now
down more than 9% in a short period of time.

Question: If the Bundesbank et al are loudly proclaiming, "we won't sell our gold", why isn't this helping gold price? We know that if the reverse were true, gold would plummet!

LONDON, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - Gold steadied from its previous day's late thumping on Wednesday as supports held firm on light buying, dealers said.

Gold fixed at $310.10 an ounce on Wednesday morning, down from its fix of $312.65 the previous afternoon which preceded a fall to around $309 later on.

"Gold has seen some buying. It hit resistance at around $314 yesterday but I thought the resulting sell off was a bit harsh. It looks well-supported at the lower levels," said one dealer.

Mini-rallies in gold have rapidly petered-out midway into the $310-$320 range during recent days, mainly on producer selling in the face of overall bearish sentiment for bullion.

Gold remains bruised by news from Switzerland late last month that the country is on track to sell 1,400 tonnes of reserve gold, more than half its total, depending on parliamentary and voter approval.

The fact that the Swiss are considering sales is already a strong bear factor on its own without the notion that fellow central banks may follow suit.

Germany's Bundesbank dismissed such thoughts on Wednesday, saying it had no plans to sell reserves.

"Selling gold reserves is not an issue for the Bundesbank. The Bundesbank has no intentions of selling gold," the central bank said in a statement.

It said it had carried out gold lending "on a restricted basis for a long time, like most other central banks".

"I dismiss that as being nonsense. It's the old, old story on sales," said one London dealer.

"The only thing I found mildly surprising was that they have been in the lending market recently," he said, adding that the Bundesbank didn't used to lend at all.

Silver finally looked set to shrug off its recent association with gold on Wednesday, nipping up towards $5.00 while gold looked the opposite way. At 1100 GMT, it was at $4.98/$5.00, up six cents on its previous London close.

Platinum and palladium also firmed to $393.00/$395.00 and $211.00/$213.00, up $6.00 and $3.00 respectively.

"The last few days saw sizeable long liquidation of platinum by funds, which eased yesterday. When these guys sell large quantities, you have to get out of the way," said one dealer.

"There has been good physical demand below $400 with real bargains down at $390," he said, adding that one-month platinum lease rates at 16 percent would help to firm the spot price.

06:38 11-12-97

Steady: How long do you think it will be before the lemmings figure the following out.

As a citizen I can have every orifice of my soul, life, and financial dealings monitored, looked into, poked, and prodded, BUT, these wacky kids they call the Central Banks and the Federal Reserve, nobody gets to look at what they are doing and have done.

Who elected them. Nobody. THEY ELECTED THEMSELVES.

Hmmmmmmm.

Lemming alertLemming Alert

EARTH TO LEMMINGS!!!!

November 12, 1997
US, Malaysia at odds on WTO financial pact

GENEVA ( Reuters ) - The United States and Malaysia indicated Wednesday they were at odds over terms for a global pact to liberalize financial services, and diplomats said they feared the problem could sink a deal.

While Deputy U.S. Trade Representative Jeffrey Lang made clear that offers from key developing countries were not yet enough for Washington to sign up to an agreement, a Malaysian official said his country had advanced as far as it could.

They were speaking after senior negotiators from nearly 90 countries, facing a Dec. 12 deadline, met to assess prospects for a pact that would open up banking, insurance and securities industries to international competition.

"There are some positive elements but we still have a lot of work to do in a short period of time," Lang told reporters as he emerged from the meeting at the World Trade Organization ( WTO ) headquarters, echoing comments he made before the session.

At a news conference earlier in the day, he stressed that the United States, whose support as the world's biggest player in the multibillion-dollar sector is vital for a deal, wanted more movement from emerging economies. Promises had to be converted into concrete proposals, Lang said. And he told the WTO session that many key countries were holding back on the commitments the United States was looking for "as a matter of policy."
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/TRADE-FINANCIAL.html

steady: I have found them to be more visible, than I originally thought. Just track the media, $ and politics, of this country. Follow the money!
It is all out there and is not a conspiracy it is business as usual for them. To us it is easier to just say it's a conspiracy, rather than dig out the relationships between various people and organizations. When ever information is posted here that shows their relationships it is either not responded to or dismissed as "just more of the conspiracy talk" They are just very LOW profile to say the least.

What if the Western European/N American CB's have been lending gold to to Russia for the last year and Russia has been selling it for US$. This setup would allow the West to ( silently ) support Russian reconstruction and help to keep Yeltsin in power. The return of their gold would be guaranteed by Russia's large gold reserves. Sounded like a win-win situation until things begin to sour. Russia has mismanaged the funds and now they can't even pay their miners. The West is getting nervous about the return of their gold. Does anyone remember BIG TRADERS post several months ago....Russia's the key, Japan's the sideshow ( slow platinum deliveries from Russia ) , the Bear is a raging Bull ( what appears to be a gold bear market is really a bull market behind the scene ) Any comments?

Could the attempt to create a gold backed Euro be
causing the gold slump? If the gold price is low,
doesn't that make it easier to create a gold backed
Euro? Does that mean that once the Euro situation
is resolved, gold will go up. Nice timing by the CBs?

The shorts better be able to hold on or gold will explode and things will REALLY start to get interesting.

Calypso. Let your body move to the rhythm.

November 12, 1997
Closing overseas stock market indices

LONDON ( Reuters ) - Here is how major stock markets outside the United States ended Wednesday.
LONDON - Britain's leading share index was knocked back to levels last seen in June after a fresh bout of selling in key Asian markets reverberated around the world. The FTSE 100 closed at 4,720.4, down 73.3 points, or 1.53 percent.
PARIS - French shares recovered early losses to close slightly down, buoyed by a stronger dollar and a better-than-expected performance by Wall Street, traders said. The CAC-40 index closed at 2,696.60, down 3.11 points, or 0.12 percent.
FRANKFURT - Germany's DAX index, hammered by overnight losses in Asian financial markets, tumbled 1.9 percent as traders said there were few indications for an upturn in the coming days. The DAX-30 index closed at 3,659.27, down 71.81 points, or 1.92 percent. In later screen-based trade, the IBIS DAX index ended at 3697.48, down 37.31 points, or 1.00
percent.
TOKYO - The Tokyo stock market's benchmark fell sharply to end at its lowest level in more than two years as the yen's slide against the dollar sparked concerns among overseas investors about the value of yen-denominated assets, brokers said. The 225-share Nikkei average closed at 15,434.17, down 433.06 points, or 2.73 percent.
HONG KONG - Hong Kong stocks closed sharply lower on worries over lending rates and regional markets, brokers said. The Hang Seng index closed at 9,607.91, down 396.22 points, or 3.96 percent.
SYDNEY - A lackluster Australian stock market limped to a lower close after Asian markets opened weaker. The All-Ordinaries index closed at 2,510.9, down 13.1 points, or 0.52 percent.
JOHANNESBURG - The key South African stock index ended down nearly 2 percent in futures-led trade as derivative players sold off stock on fears of a possible U.S. rate hike and as Asian market woes resurfaced. The All-Share index closed at 6,540.9, down 118.6 points, or 1.78 percent. The All-Gold index closed at 830.8, down 25.0 points, or 2.92 percent, while the Industrial index closed at 8,041.9, down 137.6 points, or 1.68 percent.

JTF: I would like to add to your insightful comment:

Date: Wed Nov 12 1997 11:25
JTF ( @USAgold ( Nov11,97 ) :

a_new_gold_backed_euro! --

All: USAgold, in its Nov 11 daily post yesterday, said that a European Central Bank is being formed, and that a "gold-backed euro" has taken center stage. Does anyone know which country will be the site of this bank, and whether each member country is expected to have gold bullion assets? If that 1990 Warwick, UK Economic symposium describing secretly going to the gold standard accurately summarized what will happen, each member country will need to have a minimum of gold in their Central Bank. Also Japan will have to follow suit. Wonder what they will sell to buy gold? I guess more importantly to us is when? Maybe my idea of a new gold-backed currency coming out of England, or ? wasn't so crazy after all.

I wonder, will this gold-backed euro be the new ECU/EMU? If it is, the secret transition to the "gold standard" was well orchestrated!

A few months back GOLD-EAGLE received an interesting analysis from the ORACLE, which indirectly deals with your above statement. And although ORACLE did not specifically mention the EURO, it is readily discernible this is what was referring to. Not only does the study estimate which countries must buy or sell gold to implement a GOLD-BACKED CURRENCY, but also specifies HOW MUCH GOLD MUST BE BOUGHT OR DIVESTED by each country -- including the expected gold acquisition by Japan. It is indeed an interesting study:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/oracle714.html

AlKahulik: Yes, I think that is how they are cooking their books to meet Euro Standards. One press released, a while back, stated that their CB's were selling Gold to improve their balance sheets for the Euro requirements.
Plus all of the other exchange relationships with commodities and various currencies that I referred to in my earlier post

A Modest Defense of Kitco Exchanges

To all of you that visit this Board and, before exiting, express your disgust with the gloom and doom, the madness you find here, I would respectfully ask that you consider the following:

It is a very Difficult, indeed Painful, task to view ones world with Objective eyes. It requires that one Discipline out the Ready Rationalizations and Allow In only Austere Facts.

The free and spirited exchange of Ideas poses no threat to Anyone. If one finds an Idea unpalatable, one dissects and replies or simply Ignores.

But Willful Ignorance Is a dangerous explosive. Consider:

I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.
( Tolstoy. )

What might NOT have happened had Germans had an electronic forum like this in the 20s and 30s.

As for madness, a motley group of farmers daring to Challenge the British Empire...there is a Fine Madness!

There is, perhaps, a link between Madness and High Purpose.

To: Nick@Aussie.12:24

Folly, Frenzy, Fear. Truly the Force of a Few Word. Thanks.
Thanks also for "Sea Catcher"

Tolerant1-Lemmings are just what they are, lemmings. People believe what they hear and read. The same bunch that controls the financial markets controls the mass media. Do not have much hope in the masses. It will, as always, take an individual to chgange things. It is an uphill battle but since the mass media does not control this MEDIA maybe, just maybe there is a chance.

Any know the Put to Call ratio?

If one was in the Know, One will make a ton of money today when the Fed reports @ 2pm.

AlKahulik: YOUR: Could the attempt to create a gold backed Euro be causing the gold slump? If the gold price is low, doesn't that make it easier to create a gold backed Euro? HERES your answers:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/oracle714.html

November 12, 1997
States warn against scams aimed at ethnic groups

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - State securities regulators are cracking down on securities scams targeted at ethnic minority and religious groups and are warning that these schemes may be on the rise.

A group of 14 states, including California, Florida, New York and Ohio, on Wednesday announced they have begun investigating or have taken actions against perpetrators who have preyed on Asian communities, Hispanics, African-Americans and several religious groups.

Called affinity group fraud, these scams are becoming more common as the numbers of new immigrants is at levels not seen since early this century.

"You need to know that just because someone shares your ancestry or race, that's not enough of a reason to trust that person with your money," warned Mark Griffin, president of the North American Securities Administrators Association. In California, state officials are investigating more than 20 cases of commodity dealers targeting various Asian communities in the Los Angeles area for bogus foreign currency and precious metals investments, which led to millions of dollars in losses.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/INVESTMENTS-SCAMS.html

There have been almost daily reports of CB selling, yet no CB, or the IMF, which reports such sales, has made any confirming announcement. Moreover, most European CB's and other likely selling banks have announced that they have not made such sales. Thus, either these CB's have made public false statements of fact, which is unlikely, or CB selling has not occurred to the degree speculated this year by the CPM group and others, unless a large amount of such sales have been made by Asian and other banks not subject to reporting requirements which is not likely. In addition, investor dishoarding at these price levels would not seem to be significant and except for Australian producers, producer hedging has not been reported as being a major detriment to price. When this is to be considered relative to the strong physical demand this year, it would seem that an enormous amount of sales must be attributed to foward sales arising from speculators betting on a lower gold price and the open OTC interest at this level must be extremely high. Since there apparently has been no attempt to cover at this price level, obviously these speculators have valid reasons to expect gold to drop substantially further. The primary question is what are these reasons, for if they prove to be wrong, gold should bolt substantially higher. Armstrong attributed lower gold prices to German CB selling, which we now know is wrong since the German CB specifically denied such sales. Swiss bank sales will not come on the agenda for years. Other leading CB selling candidates have also denied making or about to make such sales. Thus is CB selling the true reason for the speculative short interest or is there another reason, more substantial yet to be publically uncovered. The Soros group unloading of NEM recently should not be taken lightly - as presumably it was done with the expectation that it and gold would move substantially lower.

Pay attention to Brazil. The Bovespa Index is crashing today -- down 10% . It stands at 7864, -847 points for the day. US banks are going to take a big hit from losses in Brazil. The Brazilian situation is approaching the panic stage -- close to where Hong Kong was 3 weeks ago.

The bonds and DJIA are synchronizing, finally. Where is the "flight to quality"? This term will go down in history as much as "irrational exuberance has unduly escalated assets values, which then become subject to unexpected and prolonged contractions, as they have in Japan".

( Brazil down 10% , Russia also down 10% )

Delphi, A. Goose: If this gold-backed euro talk is just the EMU/ECU business that has been going on for a long time, this is no news at all, and will change nothing.
I just thought someone had finally "seen the light" -- perhaps it was wishful thinking on my part. A strong gold-backed european currency -- to bail everyone out -- it had a nice ring to it.
I hope the "powers that be" don't play up the gold-backed ECU/EMU bit too much now, or when we really do need a truly gold-backed currency, noone will believe it will work.

November 12, 1997
Stocks rebound ahead of Federal Reserve's rate decision

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Stocks rallied at midsession Wednesday as the market braced for the outcome of the Federal Reserve's interest-rate decision, but the mood on Wall Street was still uneasy after another sell-off in Southeast Asian stocks.

At 1 p.m. EST, the Dow Jones industrial average was off 33.40 points at 7,525.33 after rebounding from an early deficit of more than 80 points.
In the broader market, declining issues led advances 2-1 on active volume of 311 million shares on the New York Stock Exchange.

The Nasdaq composite index was down 12.41 points at 1,571.45. "I like the way the market is bouncing back. There is definitely some bottom fishing out there, especially in the tech stocks, but the hot, fast money is selling into any rally," said Charles Payne of Wall Street Strategies.

Investors were awaiting the outcome of the Fed's rate-setting Open Markets Committee, with an announcement expected around 2:15 p.m. EST.

The bond market was lower, with the benchmark 30-year Treasury bond off 5/32, or $1.56 on a $1,000 bond, which raised its yield to 6.20 percent from Monday's close of 6.16 percent. The bond market was closed Tuesday for Veterans' Day.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/STOCKS.html

If the Dow behaves over the next 8 years the way the Nikkei has behaved for the last 8, it will be at 2975 in the year 2005.

steady ( Synchronization ) : I think they are generally always in sync., we just don't have a complete understanding as to how they are Synchronizing with one another - it very well could be an inverse relationship with Gold, and appears to be.

I feel that they have a real problem in Brazil, HK, Japan, etc. and the price of Gold may be a greater indicator of the severity of the problems than we realize.

Does anyone have a good Internet site for the number of advancing and declining issues on the NYSE, OTC, Amex, NY Bonds. Also up and down volume on all exchanges, TICK, and CBOE call-put volumes?

If so, I'd appreciate the Internet Address. Thanks.

Fed News Leaking Out? Dow -62 now, -65 now.???????
RATE HIKE ????

November 12, 1997
Report: Levi Strauss paid former exec $126 million

SAN FRANCISCO ( AP ) - Levi Strauss and Co., which just announced plans to fire nearly 6,400 workers and close 11 plants, paid more than $126 million US to its retiring president last year, the San Francisco
Chronicle reported today.

The newspaper said company records show Thomas Tusher was paid $105.8 million in accumulated stock options and $21.5 million as a "gross tax offset bonus" to help him cover the taxes on the option package.

Levi spokesman Clarence Grebey would only confirm that Tusher received sizable options and said that he "played a pivotal role during 10 years of unprecedented growth in the company."
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/BizTicker/CANOE-wire.Levi-Strauss-Payout.html

Vronsky: Just went back and reread the piece from the link below. I think the Japanese and US would go for such a deal. Interesting to say the least. Very interesting.

Er, um, if person A lends gold to person B who then sells it to C and uses the proceeds to buy bonds from D who gets stiffed under the various circumstances where one of the parties goes bust? It sounds like a risky proposition to me.

To: JTF@Sane, A.Goose@Pond.central


Why Not Euro?

Are not the geo-political realities being ignored here? That part of the world ( SE Asia ) which was the focal point of delight 9 months ago can not be discounted now. China must be slotted into action equations.

It seems probable the geo-political realties will include a measure of disenchantment with the west.

It seems probable they ( SE Asia, for starters ) may feel they followed the rules of the game and got thrown out of the game for the efforts. They are not happy campers. They will be a hard sell on New Euro Campground Offers Best Facilities and Total Security . Hard Sell.

And then, in Euro-land, there is the French.

And there is China. A different mind-set altogether. And one that can be ignored only at great peril.

What they ( Cbs, Banks, They ) need is a tool that can be sold as doing the least damage to the least number of people over the shortest possible time.

I submit that that tool is the SDR; with no national identity, no philosophical tenets, indeed, very little baggage at all.

Mr. Peutz, Try this: http://cbs.marketwatch.com/data/marketdata.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

Just picked up some Homestake Apr. 98 Calls Strike price 12.5. You'd think I would know better by now.

223 ( @dumb question ) : GREAT QUESTION!
That is exactly my point, simplify to A,B, & C etc. doing business with one another that is exactly the situation, now add in the commodity varibles etc. Gold is the only thing that keeps them honest. 2 Goats for a can of Gas with a
4 strange coins - GOLD in COLOR just doesn't complete the deal.

No action on interest rates...

http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/fiendbea/homepage.htm

Vronsky: Thanks for your 13:11 post. I think A. Goose, Delphi and I may be at cross purposes. Just like any other major currency currently in use, the EMU/ECU would be expected to have some gold backing, and years ago Germany was selected to be the central bank for the EMU/ECU. As far as I know the ECU/EMU is still a "paper" currency, not significantly more "gold-backed" than any other modern currency. Only the Swiss Frank comes close to being gold-backed. Isn't interesting that the Swiss Frank has been rising more rapidly than any other currency in recent weeks? I wonder why? Is this the smart money? Further, George Soros and others have stated that the ECU/EMU as planned has serious problems.
Now USAgold is making a news out of a gold-baked EURO. Why would this be news to USAgold, if this is the old ECU/EMU bit? Is there something else out there lurking as a backup to the ECU/EMU? Some time ago I mentioned the LBMA might be a testing ground for a truly gold-backed currency. Could this be why Hashimoto alluded to the need for Japan to buy gold? Perhaps he knows what's coming.
Yes, I did read your referenced study on the need for Japan to buy gold -- I think it fits with Hashimoto's comments that he would like to sell US treasuries, and buy gold, if he could without disrupting the world's currencies.
Vronsky, SDRer, Lurker, others -- Any ideas? Why would USAgold report activity on a gold baked EURO if it is old news? Perhaps the international plunge protection team has a contingency plan -- a backup currency -- just in case! I for one will be watching to see if the ECU/EMU has a backup. If you were a Rothschild, would you rely on the ECU/EMU?

No action taken by the Fed on interest rates. I guess they're afraid of the boogie man.

Steve Puetz
I have been using:
http://quote.yahoo.com/m0?u
Go to US Market Digest.
I plot the ratios every half hour to monitor the internals.
And they are just getting sicker.
Market leader GE just getting dumped.

Panda: Did they already announce no increase from the FED?

Looks like thay are trying to pump the premium.
Is this just timeing for AG's speech???

Some replies:

Date: Sun Nov 09 1997 21:49
Cmax ( @ANOTHER ) ID#339320:
Thanks for the reply. Due do the new "sectioning" of time intervals on Kitco,
I think most people missed it.
What do you think is a tentative timeframe for serious upward movement in
gold ( above 450 )

CMAX,
A simple move above 450 is not even a thought. The billions that have found
gold these few years see metal in the thousands! Someday the CBs will say, we
stop now, as value has all. In that day we will all understand what is
real and who is real!

Date: Sun Nov 09 1997 21:58
Shek ( home ) ID#287279:
Another,
6-7 months ago, a poster ( BigTrader ) made similar predictions to yours.
He even gave timframes. His final and boldest prediction coincided with a
big drop in gold prices. BigTrader vanished from this site.

Shek,
Big Trader has vanished from view, but he and his gold still exist. At the time of
their accumulation traders did not understand the nature of Low gold for oil and
what would happen. Many traders have lost much in paper gold but the large
physical buyers know that its value in terms of oil has risen. Time will prove all
things.

Date: Sun Nov 09 1997 22:09
KahunnaGrande ( PermainBasin,Texas ) ID#27454:
Saudi's Gold and Oil. Whatta combination. I do not see how until there is a
unified european currency that the saudi's and the other oil producing
countries can price their commodity in anything other than dollars.

Mr. KG,
The House of Saud will not have to reprice its oil in dollars, the rest of the world
will do it for them!


To close:
I have reply for others but time will not wait.

A person thinking of purchasing physical gold should
see the Bundesbank statement as fact. They
openly admit to lending in the past and no chance
of selling real gold in the future. This is a clear
indication that a solid decision was made at the BIS
meeting ( see my post ) ! All CBs will now slowly stop
all leasing operations and allow the market to size
itself. The important players, the oil states, will have
their paper covered without question! But, for all
others, the great scramble is about to begin!

Oil now must rise if the US$ and the currency system
is to survive. Japan has reached the end. They must do
their best to help the dollar rise against the yen. To this
end they will maintain all US bonds and use all new capital
to buy gold and oil!

Any country without gold will be found in a disadvantaged
state!

I wonder when folks will begin to figure out that something is not quite right here. We are truely like Alice in wonderland here. Just don't break any of those mirrors!

I have a question, and I would greatly appreciate some feedback.
Do you think it's time to start buying up some of those seemingly
cheap Can gold mining Co shares, or should I hold off for a while
longer? Thanks.

tolerant1 -- That's what Data Broadcast is reporting. I haven't seen it on Dow Jones News wire yet.

Interest Rates: NO ACTION Unchanged
Let the party begin, I got to go buy this "DIP".
Dow 10000 buy Christmas!!!
This will just fan the inflation fire.
GO GOLD!! please.

The Dow perked up about twenty points at 2:00 pm, so I wasn't the only one who saw that. Fact or, 'error' remains to be seen. I always like it better when two news sources confirm the same story.

Dow Jones News just confirmed at 2:12.

November 12, 1997
Levi Strauss defends huge payment to former executive

SAN FRANCISCO ( Reuters ) - Levi Strauss & Co., which last week said it would lay off 6,395 U.S. factory workers, paid more than $100 million to a former top executive last year, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Wednesday. Levi spokesman Clarence Grebey acknowledged that a "high figure" had been given to Tom Tusher, who retired last year as the company's chief operating officer and president, but said it was justified and not connected to the lay-offs.

"There is no doubt about it that these ... are high figures by anyone's standards, but they have nothing to do with the announcement made last week ( regarding layoffs ) ," Grebey said Wednesday.

"When his stock options were awarded back in 1985, there was no guarantee that they were going to be worth a dime."

The Chronicle reported that Tusher collected $105.8 million in accumulated stock options from the world's largest brand-name apparel manufacturer.

The sum was so large, the newspaper said, that a local bank's computer could not print it on a federal tax form, forcing bank employees to type it in manually.

Grebey said the Chronicle story took the matter out of its proper context, explaining that Tusher was the last of more than 15 top executives at Levi Strauss to cash out stock options received when the San Francisco-based company took itself private in 1985.

While Grebey declined to confirm the exact sum paid to Tusher, he said the former president was given options to buy shares at $3.50 each, and that he sold them back to the company at $265 a share.

Grebey also explained the sum by saying Tusher was head of a company that had experienced record growth. Between 1985 and 1996, the company's revenues rose to $7.1 billion from $2.6 billion, and the value of its stock increased by 5,200 percent.

Tusher joined Levi Strauss in 1969 and was president and chief operating officer of the company from 1985 to 1996.

So will a Gold backed Euro cause the price in U.S. dollars to rise or fall? I bought some Gold Maple Leafs a few months ago and have been disappointed with Gold's falling price. In finding and reading this forum I am finding solace in my decision!

What I don't understand is why Gold continues falling as world market conditions deteriorate. In the good old days, Gold always rose in times of uncertainty. What in the world is going on?

Tech sector is in a stupor, if that doesn't change then any rally is suspect.

Highrise: I would wait a little to buy that dip. Better safe than sorry. The global market looks sick, sick, sick.

Brazil down 700, That's nearly 10%, not good as Puetz pointed out.

Dow down 74 points. Could it be? A fed credibility problem being spied here by the market?

Dow down 84 points and sinking...

Thanks for embellishing my thoughts on the gold loan/currency scheme, however there is one final piece of the puzzle that will blow everybody away. Okay so the European CB's ( perhaps US also ) have got suckered into loan out or even selling there gold as a mechanism to back door finance countries like Korea, Malayasia, Brazil etc. They make a profit for sure on arbitrage, gain needed foreign currencies and it's "safe" because they are in a bear market so they can always short the gold for more profit....they've taken the bait.
Here's the trap, somebody ( House of Roth ) sends out it's minions to attack these poor countries currencies forcing them to up their gold activities to cover there "losses". All the while though it is buying up the CHEAP GOLD knowing full well that at the end of this huge mess the gold will soar, the currencies totally collapse and they stand supreme over much of the financial world. It is a better metal/money play than has ever been orchestrated and it seems the market is behaving exactly as it would if this was the case. I knew those bankers were not that bright looks like the've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, bet they haven't a clue as to what the gold market will do next.

Back to solving riddles of science, wasted too much time on this gold puzzle already...got a few coins for the kids when the ride arrives.

I've been following the metals for only a few months and I've noticed that SIlver continues to rise, even though Gold is falling. This seems to violate the historical patterns that used to take place in the 70's and 80's. Does this mean silver has more potential than Gold at this time? I'm ready to invest more, and interested in any and all opinions. What should I buy for maximum gains? Silver or Gold?

Now they know how worried AG is, they will trash this market.
None of us here has ever seen what is about to unfold.

Take a look at quote.com http://www.quote.com/cgi-bin/jchart-form?genApplet=yes

Set the chart for 10 minute intervals.

Dow spiked 20 points on FOMC announcement of no rate change
and then fell nearly 50, all in less than 20 minutes.

ANOTHER: Could you please enlighten us as to the Bank of International Settlement decision you allude to in your recent post?

To: JTF@Sane, A.Goose@Pond.central

Please see my post at 13:52, why not the Euro.

Brazil sure got hit today. Looks like the IMF better get another check ready. The economies of Latin America, Russia, and Eastern Europe are hemorrhaging. The SE Asian collapse was just the tip of the iceberg. Nick of Oz--Is the Tsunami in contact with the continental shelf yet, mate?

VIX seems to have found a new 'home' between 35 and 40. Wow. While we're at it, let's hammer gold at the close, just for good measure...

I think you have it! Keep you eyes open for steady red-laser dots in your vicinity. Could I interest you in a 2nd-hand bullet-proof vest?

Come on guys, quick, dump the gold fast. Hurry, Greenie did nothing, Brazil is down 10%. NO time to waste

You may have not seen all of the Kitco posts in the last few months. You are right, normally gold rises during times of economic or financial uncertainty. But recently -- probably around the early 90's, the Central Banks ( and others ) started to manipulate the price of gold -- to prevent gold rallies when they thought it appropriate ( my guess ) . Deflation is certainly part of the scenario, but the gold price, in my opinion is well below what it should be, by even the most conservative estimate.
Now that "flight to safety" indicator, gold, has been suppressed -- whenever we have a financial crisis, it goes down! Pretty effective, too in keeping everyone in "paper" currencies. But this suppression cannot be kept up forever, and eventually gold will rise, possibly dramatically. My guess is that, even without any more inflation, it will reach about $600/oz. If the powers that be are successful in bringing the "paper" bubble down gracefully, the rise in gold back to equilibrium will be gradual. Hope this helps. I didn't figure this pattern out until a few months ago, and lost some money during this current gold bear market. All the traditional rules on the behavior of gold have been rewritten -- but the fundamentals cannot be altered indefinitely.

FAR OUT!!the Dow down -92 pts., with no increase in rates who would have thought?
Go Figure this one. Inflationary environment with a collapseing market WOW!
Fed credibility problem YES I think for sure!
Dow -75pts 10000 by January???
Nasdaq -23pts
Who knows, this is nuts. This is like watching the weather - if you don't like it, wait a minute and it will change.

Later - I got to go make some money.

If we extend this Asian currency problem a bit, and it bites in to the GDP output of the U.S. which leads to a slow down in the economy. Won't earnings take a hit in the next few quarters? Increases in layoffs? Fewer contributions to 401K plans and other market investments? The stock market goes down in a nice slow bear. What do the long term investors do then? Clearly, anything that slows the cash inflow to the markets will cause grief. Your fault, my fault, or nobodies fault, the market gets it! ( Love those John Wayne movies! )

JTF: My intuition tells me that the Euro will have a still-birth and that the Roths and Soros knows this and have a contingency plan which they are operating through the LBMA. Help me if my intuition is wrong! The Roths operate in London through the LBMA and I suspect, having been the age-old financial advisors to the House of Windsor, undoubtedly want to avoid a strong EMU which ultimately benefits their old enemy...Germany. The Germans need the Euro more than anyone else, but will the Brits preclude such a dream and what role are the Roths playing in this game of chicken? Of course, the German Bundesbank has no intention of selling physical bullion...it is and remains the only safety valve available to fiat currency systems.

Amensty on Nov. 10 made an interesting comment re: China and Japan... Could it be that China is quietly amasing gold bullion, through Hong Kong gold mercenaries, at the expense of those naiive enough to believe it has become less valuable ( eg. Australia ) . Could it be that the words of Lao Tse are coming true...what is up is down, what is down is up, everything tends towards the middle." My money is on China gobbling up gold as quickly as they can through whatever means possible ( even a Bre-X fiasco DRAG? ) and it behooves Japan to protect itself against potential Chinese dominion ( hence the Prime Minister's statements regarding Japan's possible purchase of gold ) .

What I believe we are witnessing is indeed the rearrangement of the musiscal deck chairs and when the lulling fiat-currency-music stops and the debt implosion begins.....just who will have the last chair ( s ) and who will be left holding the bag! This is geopolitical manuevering on such a grand scale, that it boggles the mind and our hopelessly inadequate capacity as arm-chair analysts to comprehend.

Quite frankly, all of this geopolitical posturing and the veil of secrecy surrounding currency and gold trading gives me a headache!

Bonds doing a small rally while stocks roll over. :- ) ) Yeah, low interest rates = higher stock prices. :- ) ) :- ) )

Reality check anyone?

http://canoe.quote.com/fq/canoe/industrygroup?group=tse_gold

BBL

Panda
That resistance line on the Dow, that cuts across the highs,
Since the 5th is very strong.
It has created a trend that is strongly down.
Even AG and his cronies, could'nt bust through it.
It has been such a 'true' line, that one should be day trading it.
Up/down vol ratio's are currently almost as bad as at 9:45,
Amex is worse the other two just holding up.
We should get a decent sell-off shortly.
Tomorrow the fun begins.

Dow slips after Fed interest rates decision

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - The Dow Jones industrial average resumed its slide Wednesday following news that the Federal Reserve decided to hold the line on interest rates. Shortly after 2:20 p.m. EST, the Dow was off 88 points at 7,470. Early in the day, the market had fallen on continued concern over the impact on the U.S. economy from Southeast Asia's
economic problems.

Federal Reserve leaves U.S. rates unchanged

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The U.S. Federal Reserve left key interest rates unchanged on Wednesday in a widely expected move following weeks of global financial market turmoil.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~kcjones/simpsons/pics/is_anim.gif

Bravo JTF:One of the more realistic and probable scenarios I've had the
pleasure of reading.If many were to have held on to their gold related
investments on traditional fundaments that are followed here, ( unless
they were short ) ,this year's outcome would not be pretty.I and many
others appreciate the educational value of this site,but when many of the
fundamentals are falling into place and gold continues to go the " wrong"
way,at some point it had to be assumed these fundaments no longer have
the same influence..IE:Controlled/Manipulated market.You cannot win in
such a market unless you have been made privy to such information.I was
in awe of Hepcat/Parlay Vous/Cool Water/Testing.......'s...intuition or
whatever it was he used to have such good calls right from the beginning
of the year.I have now come to the conclusion he was infact one of those
fortunate enough to have access.His calls to the number are suspicious,
thus his decision never to have revealed his reasoning.Too bad he had to
stoop to taunting everyone who were trying to rationalize fundamentals,
knowing fundamentals were useless in a manipulated market.Again..Bravo!

November 12, 1997
Brazil gov't denies report of IMF bailout talks

BRASILIA, ( Reuters ) - Brazil's Finance Ministry Wednesday dismissed as unfounded a report in an Argentine newspaper that it may have been discussing a possible bailout deal with the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) .

"This doesn't exist. The Finance Ministry is unaware of any deal, any negotiation, any conversation of this sort," a ministry spokesman said, referring to the report in the newspaper Clarin.

Brazil Monday announced an $18 billion package of spending cuts and tax increases to shore up its economy and defend its beleaguered currency against speculative attack.

On Wednesday, a report in Clarin quoted Argentine President Carlos Menem as saying that international credit agencies were urging Brazil to carry out the economic adjustment program and complete it with structural reforms of the social security and civil service system, now passing through Congress.

The newspaper added that "an expert consulted by Clarin suggested Brazil had been negotiating an agreement with the IMF."

Brazilian shares were sharply down again Wednesday on fears that financial turmoil in Asia could spread to Latin America's largest economy, provoking a devaluation that would wreak havoc throughout the region.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/BRASIL-ARGENTINA-IMF.html

Your intuition re:Euro stillbirth is probably true. The US is having enough trouble finding the expertise to correct systems in time for Y2K, across the pond they have to deal with the Euro conversion as well. If the Euro is not killed outright, it will be significantly delayed. The Euro deadline is moveable, Y2K is not.

A first-time post from a big-iron programmer and 2-month lurker, interested in PMs as a hedge against possible Y2K induced infrastructure collapse. Learning quite a bit from the posts. Keep it up.

TEST

A CLASSIC!

They have been hitting the premium for the last ten minutes.
This looks like manipulation!!!!!!
But it looks like they can't hold it
Watch the dow drop this time.

Thank you -- looks like there are agendas within agendas. I wonder, if the Roths have been using gold through the LBMA ( or its equivalent ) as their medium of exchange -- for at least 200 years, why not set this up as the currency backup? Obviously this medium of currency exchange has survived turmoil in the past -- and will again.
I agree with you that China may have a lot more cards in their deck in the near future. The Chinese have survived at least three major currency debasements during their thousands of years of civilization. They undoubtedly are buying this incredibly cheap gold.
I also wonder if they have outmaneuvered the Japanese during this SE Asian crisis. I don't know if the Japanese have been serious gold buyers at all. If not, they will be in trouble after the dust settles. One also wonders if Hong Kong is that important to mainland China now that they have Shanghai fairly well-developed. Perhaps HK is being used as a convenient target, so that mainland China is protected from the Hedge fund attacks. China will be a superpower fairly soon, and possibly even the leading superpower if we ( the USA ) fail to change our ways.

With Hang Seng closing at 9607 and the Dow now at Intraday 7430, both indices are now set to test their mini crash lows of 8776 and 7151. http://www.marketweb.com/commentary/JF1111.htm

Remember the golden rule, he who owns the gold makes the rules

Here is a good summary of EMU/Y2K problem http://www.y2ktimebomb.com/International/y2kemu9745.htm

No interest rate hike, and most of the US Banks are being downgraded. Now that really is interesting there is really something wrong out there in the banking world. No more Asian miracle that you can count on for one.

They are talking about it now. That means it must be bad. I don't know but, this does not look good.

All ( incl. Kiwi, D.A. Theory, ANOTHER et.al. ) . Eureka! Consider this hypothesis: that the LBMA in London, by virtue of recently revealed volume of gold transacted in volumes that suggest gold not as commodity but as currency ( see Red Baron's LBMA expose ) , is experimenting, grooming and flexing it's muscles as the world's Central Bank, an instrument of the BIS.

I make this proposition on several bases:
1. The LBMA only recently "leaked" the actual volume of gold being traded in London and might suggest that the Rothschilds, who are one of the age-old and probably majority "shareholder" in London's twice-daily gold "fix." This volume suggests that gold is trading as currency.
2. England would do well to avoid inclusion in the German-supported Euro given the historical relationship it has had with Germany and avoidance of their political or military dominion. To this extent the Rothschilds, as the supported Britain against Napoleon and certainly against Hitler, would want to be on the right side of history. Have you heard one word from the Brits re: gold sales? NO! Nor from the Americans! Why only the Swiss? Why Australia?
3. The Euro will have a still birth..Soros and the Roths are betting on it, I bet!
4. What better way to experiment with the construction of a new world currency than through gold central: LBMA? If the majority of gold is transacted through the LBMA then this can serve as the central clearing house for all future "new world currency" trading. The Rothschilds, through N.M. Rothschilds & Sons have been the master money changers and gold traders for over 200 years in Europe and know this business and the value of gold, like no other merchant banker or Central Banker. For goodness sake, they advise the Bank of England and the Bank of France. Do they advise the Bundesbank...? Has not the LBMA become the defacto world central bank....and think about who works for the Rothschilds....the great currency trader of today: George Soros.
5. Enter China: the Chinese know whats going on...they are not going to be shut out and having been buying gold ( as Amnesty suggests ) and future production to avoid subjugation under the LBMA/BIS scheme of their western "enemies." Japan must be very concerned about being isolated between the two titans: China and the LBMA/BIS "western" powers and thus are also attempting to protect their backfield by buying gold or considering the possibilities. Japan is very tenuous right now and close to currency collapse.

The only problem is how the Americans fit into all of this....but presumably the Americans are part of the BIS group and thus the grander scheme being masterfully orchestrated by master gold traders, Rothschild.

I welcome comments and debate

Yep, someone knows. You can pay me now, or you can pay me later. But, eventually, you must pay.

When talking gold, don't forget the Russians.

Re:the Westergaard Euro/Y2K summary -- good info. I am a witness to spiraling programmer salaries -- I have received two 35% raises in the last three months, just to keep me from bailing to another company. I get daily calls from headhunters beggin me to join their team for bigger $$$. That's the reason I lurk here -- to try to keep some of the value of those raises from going up in smoke with the rest of the paper.

Avid Chatter
news in the pit is Iraq situation heats up.

That is right November 17th plus or minus two days as I stated last week will be the crash. It is begining from a ten percent decline and should rapidly increase in volume and price decay as it breaks through the 6900 level to the 6000-6200 level. To bad gold is going down the tube with the stock market.

Does anyone know the amount of gold that the US and Britain have combined? What percentage of the above ground Gold supply does this represent?

Teradyne ( TER ) was hit for over 10% today because of earnings concerns. Teradyne manufactures automatic testers for semiconductor chip makers. It seems that about forty percent of their business comes for Asian sales. Maybe I should say that forty percent of their business USED to come from....

This is what the asian currency debacle means to the U.S. investor. NOW WAKE UP! ( not addressed to kitco folk ) What will be even more interesting is the steps taken to reverse this process, or should I say the attempt to reverse this process. Fear of earnings will tank this market for now. Gold? The only way I could see gold NOT being traded, is if everybody refused to part with their precious yellow. I think it's called a locked market?

Okay, a new term from the CNBC crash dummies. Are you ready?
Stealth Bear. No kidding.

The present General Manager of BIS in Andrew Crockett,who might well p"position" neatly within the battle-lines you've just drawn. But are you not describing a titantic struggle for power? Those that have do not go gently into the night, even when it is they who have called down the darkness.

Very interesting game plan.

JTF, your post 14:04. The Euro,to have any change at all, will have to have atleast a lustre of gold.to back up the euro 100% with gold is not possible, maybe 10% but that is even questionable.To think of Europe as a united Entity, as is the US is very far of the mark yet,maybe another 50-100 years you can think of.How would you institute a common currency over such a collection of people with such diverse thinking and social policies is more than I can comprehend.Have you ever lived in Europe to know what the common person is thinking over there?As the saying goes, you can fool some people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.There is plenty of mistrust ( justifiable though ) and I have to agree with the opinion that if the Euro is born at all,it will be a very crippled currency for sure.

tolerant1 -- I thought the term 'stealth bear' applied to a narrowing of the market. In this sense, the major indexes rise as the lessor stocks fail. A type of 'flight to quality' that is always doomed to fail as the bear is seen for what it is.

Nice to know that we have such 'seasoned' commentators on CNBC. :- ) )

Nick -- Another feature of this market is the relatively light volume on the 'upside' and the heavier volume on the downside. Unfortunately, XAU and HUI being tossed out with the rest. Geezzz! GGO at 29 1/2. ABX at 17 3/4. NGC at 32 1/4..............

Auric: US has about 8000 tons, the UK has 600. So that is 8600 on a total of let say 120,000 tons or something in the neigborhood of 7% of above ground gold reserves.

I'm more concerned with the return OF my money then the return ON my money----Will Rogers

Light up volume + heavy down volume = eager sellers. Do I hear a growel out there?

BBL, having a tough time getting in to post.

Can anyone tell me where all that money went when the market falls to hell?That money will aks for a place to stay and their owners will not leave it under the matress very long as it does not earn any interest there.This is the point made about gold too.So what to do with the money?
Traders will have a hayday when things get in a flux,they make money coming and going.yeah,timing is everything!

Markus ( Is the LBMA the worlds' future CB? ) : I truly believe you may have reached finally the inner-sanctum of the the last peel of the 'Onion Paradox.' What is left to determine is the exact game-plan of the Rothschilds et al... and more importantly their time horizon.

DOW -140/NASDAQ -42 - No Uptick today at the end???????

Some woman from Prudential Securities was just on CNBC and she said that gold was dead as an asset - that no one is interested in hard assets anymore.

She also mentioned that based on some futures trading in Chicago, the Nikkei is now below 15,000!. I'm not sure if I got this right, but it sure sounded ominous.

She claims the US$ and bonds are the only way to go.

Thanks, CC. Do you know how this compares to Germany, France, and China? If my figures are correct, Switzerland has about 2100 tons? That would be about 1.6% of total above ground supply. PS--ssrif, paasf, fsr lookin' good.

Panda: Did not know that. The only bear I am familiar with is Winnie the Pooh.

Nick ( Aussie ) Congratulations on another brilliant market call! With bullion off $2.30 today no surprise that gold stocks have been hit hard yet again. Your recommendation to avoid gold until AFTER the crash was right on the money. I am 98% in cash and just 2% in gold mutuals, but do regret that 2%.

BTW, how low do you see the Dow going if it breaks the October trough of 7000?

'Japan selling' emerges amid economic and financial concerns


TOKYO, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - Japan suffered the double blow Wednesday
of falls in its stocks and currency as funds fled the country due to
growing concerns about the economy and financial system, analysts
said.
"It all came down to 'Japan selling'," Tokyo Research Institute
analyst Toshio Sumitani said. "Funds are flowing out of Japan
because of economic worries and concerns about Japan's financial
system."
The main share price index fell to its lowest close in more than
two years on the Tokyo Stock Exchange Wednesday as the currency
dropped to a six-month low against the dollar.
The Nikkei average of 225 selected issues slumped 433.06 points,
or 2.7 percent, to 15,434.17, the lowest close since July 6, 1995 as
the currency fell to 127.72-75 yen to the dollar by late afternoon,
the lowest since May 6.
Dealers and brokers said declines in stock prices and the yen
were feeding off each other, creating a vicious circle.
The yen accelerated its fall against the dollar Wednesday
following a report on a widening of the Japan premium, extra
interest charged by foreign financial instutitions on loans to
Japanese banks.
Global markets were charging an extra 0.18-to-0.19 percentage
points on loans to Japanese banks, up sharply from the 0.05
percentage point premium charged for the previous three months, he
said. Investors and the business circles are waiting for an economic
package being drawn up by the ruling Liberal Democratic Party,
expected to be released as early as Thursday.
But Japan's financial authorities are left with little means to
stimulate the economy.
The Bank of Japan has no leeway to cut its key discount rate,
which has been pegged at an all-time low of 0.5 percent for more
than two years.
"Considering the effect that Japan's economic slump would have
on the world's economy, now may be the time to shelve the rebuliding
of the state finances for a while," said Takanori Tanabe, an senior
official at a investment trust firm affiliated with Nomura
Securities Co. Ltd.

Dow down 160 points...

Ali -- It goes to 'money heaven'. :- ) )

Clinton to meet ASEAN leaders over currency turmoil: Philippine FM


MANILA, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - US President Bill Clinton is to meet with
a group of Southeast Asian leaders in Canada later this month to
discuss the financial turmoil besetting their economies, Philippine
Foreign Secretary Domingo Siazon said Wednesday.
The meeting with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations
( ASEAN ) leaders should be held over breakfast on the sidelines of
the November 24-25 summit of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation
( APEC ) forum in Vancouver, Siazon told reporters here.
"President Clinton has indicated that he would like to have a
breakfast with the ASEAN leaders," he said.
The Filipino official said ASEAN expects the US leader to
discuss "how to deal with this particular currency turbulence, and
of course to reassure Southeast Asia that in the eyes of the United
States of America, Southeast Asia is important as a major economic
partner."

Panda
What amazes me is that there are still bulls buying - dippies.
It won't take to many more days and they'll be wondering what they did wrong.
Their trading methodology that has worked well for ten years, now no longer applies.
Oldman said the best comment the other day,
"I'm not a bull and I'm not a bear, I'll just play the market the way it's going"
Any trader who can do that, and leave the emotions behind has to be a winner.
Same applies to gold.
Soon to turn - but a bit more to burn.

Survey shows most Germans gloomy about future
BONN, Nov 12 ( Reuters ) - Most Germans see a bleak and
uncertain future ahead of them in which the rich become richer
and the poor poorer, according to a survey published on
Wednesday.
The survey by the respected Allensbach Institute also showed
Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Christian Democrats ( CDU/CSU ) closing
the gap on the opposition Social Democrats ( SPD ) lead with 34.7
percent and 37 percent respectively.
But despite the small gains of his ruling coalition of CDU
and the junior partner the Free Democrats, which had 6.1 percent
support, a "red-green" coalition of centre-left SPD and the
Greens with 12.8 percent would still beat them in an election.
"The world on the other side of the fence looks bleak and
frightening," Allensbach director Renate Koecher wrote in the
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily newspaper which also
published the results of the monthly survey.
Kohl's pledge to halve unemployment by the year 2000 had
failed to convince the vast majority of Germans who fear
joblessness, currently at a post-war record high of 4.5 million,
would get even worse.
"The vast majority of the population is convinced that in
ten years time society will be colder, more selfish, that
unemployment will rise and their future will be less certain,"
Koecher wrote.

XAU -5.02 ( 6.21% ) ; DOW -162 ( 2.15% ) , NASDAQ -44 ( -2.80% )

'Premium' nightmare recurring for Japanese banks
TOKYO, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - International lenders have jacked up the
"premium" they charge Japanese banks for loans and while officials
cite a seasonal rise in demand, analysts blame growing gloom over
the economy.
The premium "widened for the past several weeks," Haruhiko
Kuroda, chief of the international finance bureau, was quoted by
Jiji Press news agency as telling a lower house parliamentary
committee on Wednesday.
Global markets were charging an extra 0.18-to-0.19 percentage
points on loans to Japanese banks, up sharply from the 0.05
percentage point premium charged for the previous three months, he
said.
But Kuroda said the higher premium was due to increased demand
for funds, and not because of deepening gloom over the Japanese
economy, including last week's collapse of Sanyo Securities Co.
Ltd.
"The premium is on a slight rise, as Japanese banks are
hurriedly raising funds amid tight supply," the news agency quoted
the official as saying.
"I have not heard that foreign banks are tightening credit lines
( to Japanese companies ) ," he said, adding it was "not difficult at
all to secure enough funds."

Fully blown liquidity crisis coming up next.....

Neophyte -- Gold will be dead until they devalue the dollar. Don't worry, it's coming. If we keep inflation low by importing all of those 'inexpensive' imports ( via their currency devaluations ) , then how will we export our HIGH priced goods?

Advances 600
Declines 2400
4:1 ratio
Kathy Jones @ Prudential was ask on CNBC, "what are you in?", She answered, " CASH, Bonds I am not sure of in this environment."
I think that is the first time that they haven't called bonds the safe haven.

At least they have moved to cash, can gold be far behind?

Hong Kong steps up inspection of financial standing of local banks


HONG KONG, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - Hong Kong's quasi central bank, the
Hong Kong Monetary Authority ( HKMA ) , has stepped up its inspection
of the financial standing of local banks, following a minor run at
one bank over the past two days, it was reported Wednesday.
The HKMA has asked banks and other authorised institutions to
file daily updates of their deposit, loan and liquidity positions to
ensure it is able to react rapidly to problems, the South China
Morning Post said.
In the past, the reports were submitted on a weekly basis, but
the HKMA said it was stepping up its assessments while financial
volatility in Hong Kong persisted.

IBCA reviews Japanese banks' ratings, warns of accounts cheating


PARIS, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - The credit-rating agency IBCA said
Wednesday it will review the individual ratings of Japanese banks to
take account of the effects of the financial crisis in Southeast
Asia.
The agency said that the Nikkei 225 stock index in Tokyo had
fallen below 16,000 points and that therefore six banks no longer
had hidden reserves because their stock portfolios now showed
capital losses.
The agency named these banks as the Long-term Credit Bank of
Japan ( LTCB ) , Yasuda Trust, Nippon Credit Bank, Daiwa Bank, Hokkaido
Takushoku and above all Fuji Bank.
IBCA, which is owned by the French Fimalac group, said: "It is
our intention to ensure that the poor condition of the banks is
appropriately reflected in our individual ratings."
If the stock market remained weak, Japanese banks would have to
make choices between making provisions for poor loans and capital
losses on stock portfolios in order to respect capital-adequacy
rations required by the Bank for International Settlements.
At the end of the 1997-98 fiscal year to March 31 some banks
would have no choice but to cheat, IBCA warned. They would have to
do so either by delaying provisions which, however, were absolutely
vital, or by delaying the effect of stock losses on their accounts.

Bundesbank stands by gold
FRANKFURT, Nov 12 ( AFP ) - The Bundesbank does not intend to sell
gold, it said on Wednesday in denial of press reports.
The Bundesbank issued a statement stressing that "the sale of
gold reserves is not a subject for discussion at the Bundesbank. The
Bundesbank has absolutely no intention of selling gold."
The Die Welt newspaper reported on Wednesday that an executive
of the central bank had travelled to London recently to talk to
experts in the gold market about possible sales of gold.
The sale of gold reserves in Germany has been a taboo owing to
deeply-entrenched concern about the strength of the banking system
arising from the experience of disastrous inflation in the 1930s.

The way I look at it I am buying more physical. I am satisfied with my metal stocks, and they held up very well today. My physical will be split between delivered to my hut in the Conch Republic and e-gold.

I have no desire to try and find the bottom in the bullion gold market or guess the lows in the metal stocks.

My gut tells me gold is a steal at these prices.

As for Prudentials analyst that said gold is dead. I saw her. She looked post embryo to me. All she has ever seen is the bull market. A rude awakening for her and those following that kind of thinking.

Kitcoites! Finally I think we are starting to "grok" gold. Do we have the full picture yet? No I don't think so. But I do feel that we are on the most solid ground since Big Trader started posting last december... The details will start filling in rapidly... Today is probably one of the best set of kitco posts ever!!

I think a note of caution to folks that just tuned in recently to Kitco and to people that lurk here.

Do not get crazy and start thinking options on the metals. Please seek out a friend and spend a long time learning and thinking, then if you still feel "lucky" my advice is don't do it.

Buy physical and mining shares. And do NOT go into debt of any kind to get set up in any metal situation.

This has been a public service message from Tequilaville.

To: Tolerant1@Pru.analyst

She also was at a loss about some place in the world to invest. "cash" she said, looking quite embarassed by it all.

FWIW I vote for the D.A. scenario over the LBMA being positioned as a new world bank. However, elements of the LBMA scenario would apply in the D.A. scenario.

George
I have a target between 4000 and 5000,
I think that it will bounce closer to the bottom mark before it will rebound.
Long term I'm in Steve's camp, Y2K depression etc.

Today the world should react harshly.
I expect that the trading halts will be hit early tommorow.
Monday capitulation?

So far it seems to be following textbook 'crash mode'
This wave we have just entered should be the crash wave.
I doubt that it will happen on a third wave.

I feel that gold will keep on falling,
For a period after the crash.
My logic for this is that the paper debts, that are being burned now.
Will have to be paid for with real assets.
Once this has balanced out,
I feel that it will take off, like a scalded cat.

Nick -- Agreed. My problem is that I have been scaling in to these gold stocks. I can't tell where the bottom will be. I do know, when the turn comes, and it will, it will be explosive. After all, the market makers have to make up their losses somewhere! What better way than to mark up like crazy? Oh, of course that NEVER happens... So, ( a poor investment strategy BTW ) I buy constant dollar amounts of certain stocks when these down drafts happen. some would call it dollar cost averaging, I call it something else... Now, in the gold market, there has been only one CONSTANT draft, and that is down. I have never been able to pick a bottom except by luck. So this has been my way of accumulating positions over time. Once in a blue moon, ( it has been known to happen though ) , I have the good fortune to take profits on a bounce.

SDRer: Yes, quite so.

Dow/Gold Ratio = 24.06

Vronsky/the Major..thank you for your endorsement of my theories re: LBMA as world's central bank. As for their time horizon, if one studies the Rothschilds of old, one recognizes that, as the Chinese, they play a very patient and grind-them-down game. As the old adage goes: "slow but sure wins the race." Reflecting on the words of the President of Franco Nevada that "these ( depressed gold prices ) are buying opportunities ( of smaller, less economical gold mines ( operating at above $300/oz ) ", one can only imagine that the Rothschilds take the same atttitude.

Don't forget, the Rothschilds always benefit from the illusion of peace and stability. Slowly but surely, mining companies will default ( as many of us are realizing in our megre portfolios with smaller firm share prices steadily falling since July's Australia's gold sale announcement ) and who will pick them up at low prices? Soros and Rothschilds? For my money, check the prospectus of any companies you currently own....if they have the name N.M. Rothschild and Sons associated with their financing, perhaps consider them as "keepers." If you see good gold mining companies experiencing unusual price declines ( e.g. such as is now happening with Prime Resources, Canadian sister of Homestake Mining ) , then ask "why" and "who" would benefit from depressed prices of such a gem which has remained remarkably resilient throughout this very serious grizzly bear gold market ( check their performance since March ) .

For my money, this will be a painful and protracted rationalization of the few gold bugs that remain committed to the old "fundamentals" which in economic terms still foretell soaring gold prices. What I have learned as a gold neophyte is that "normal does not live here any more" or maybe it never did. That is, fundamentals which affect other commodities do not operate in the same fashion as gold.

Consider this quote from Richard Salsman's epic study "Gold and Liberty" from the American Institute for Economic Review ( p. 106 )
On the question of what factor determines the price of gold Salsman writes:
"The overriding factor determining the gold price in any currency is the degree of credibility ( or likely to be exhibited ) by the government that issues the currency. The higher ( or lower ) the credibility, the more ( or less ) likely a government currency will retain its value or not lose ( or gain ) so much, and the more ( or less ) likely the gold price denominated in that currency will stabilize or fall ( or rise ) . Since there no longer are any objective standards by which government money is issued, no precise formula exists for determining the long-term future value of a currency, and therefore the future of its gold price."

My conclusion from this is that fundamentals, as we know them, don't apply to gold; never have and never will. Perhaps all of the so-called fundamentals reported by the World Gold Council or any other body have been simply "necessary drags" appreciating the historical and current strategic significance of gold to the world. It is in the interests of those who control currencies to maintain the illusion, and when that illusion gets out of control simply to impose binding legislation ( as Roosevelt did in the 1933 gold-collection legislation ) to reign it in and out of the control of the citizenry.

What we are witnessing is a HUGE CONFIDENCE GAME, unprecidented in human history that involves the monetization by central banks of their debts, which will undermine their credibility and credibility of their currencies. To that extent, budget deficits are necessary, but not sufficient, condition for such monetization. The US continues to deficit finance and spend....it being the supreme world currency, must continue this game of debasement.

Consider the evidence, as Salmans shows, that under Clinton we now have the purchasing power of the US dollar ( calculated from the Wholesale Price Index ) at 0.09 ( based on an index where 1792=1.00 ) and gold's purchasing power ( calculated from annual averages of Wholesale Price Index and the annual averages of the exchange ratio of dollars for gold ) at roughly 1.70...that means that gold's purchasing power vis-a-vis the US $ is now 18.9 times, unprecidented in history.

Had I known these facts back in March, when I entered the gold market, I most certainly would have considered NOT the FUNDAMENTALS of supply and demand, but the fundamentals of the CONFIDENCE GAME that must continue so avoid US currency implosion due to a debt implosion. I would have thus sided, ironically with the gold bears, buying the dips in July and now November....

In the mean time, I enjoy being "crucified on the cross of gold" to quote a former presidential candidate who lost the bimetalism debate: Bryan.

Cheers and happy days!

BBML

Glad I bought that gold stock ( ABX ) as a hedge to the reg. stock market----DOOOOOOOOOH.....

November 12, 1997
Stocks slump after Fed keeps rates steady; techs hammered

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Stocks took a pounding Wednesday as the Federal Reserve's decision to keep interest rates unchanged highlighted U.S. central bankers' worries about the global fallout from the economic crisis in Asia.

A big drop in technology stocks also soured investors' taste for stocks.
Based on early and unofficial results, the Dow Jones industrial average tumbled 151.76 points, or 2 percent, at 7,406.97. In the broader market, declining issues swamped 23-6 on active volume of 589 million shares on the New York Stock Exchange. The Nasdaq composite index plunged 43.15 points, or 2.7 percent, at 1,541.71.

KIWI - "Fully blown liquidity crisis coming up next....." YES 60 Trillion in derivatives, unwinding now. As cash evaporates in the markets, it will cause an amplify more defaults.
MoreMargin Calls, loan problems etc.

AG doesn't really have to raise rates if "tight money environment" exist. They may have to keep the currency printing presses running tonight. They will have to add liquidity to the system.

Tonight will be interesting, to say the least.

JTF
I wasn't trying to say that it was a well known fact about the ecu. I just was indicating that the ECU banks would have to hold gold as has been planned. As you already know, their seems to be someone on this board that has read about almost everything that has been planned by the gamesmen.
So as that information becomes more widely known it could have an impact as you were asserting.

XAU/Spot Ratio = .248 The last time the ratio was this low was in March, 1993.

The road ahead looks extremely ugly. Every country is cross invested in other nations. A very clear domino effect seems to be emerging.
Tonights Asian reaction will be critical.
Remeber it would take only US $300 Billion to buy ALL the CB Gold that is out there.
How much money was lost in todays trading alone around the world???
This paper charade could be drawing to a close.

Gee, would you rather be long XAU stocks or Long the Nikkei right now?

AURIC: Germany 2900 tons, France 2600 tons, Swiss 2600 tons, China ??

Neophyte
That CNBC comment is the 'pure' propaganda they want the masses to believe.
If the masses were to turn to gold, as their next high % investment,
The bonds would be in a worse position, than they already are.
No bonds = No Gov't.

I agree 100% with GFD at 16:10. This is the best day at Kitco I have ever lurked thru.
This is solid proof that once the antogonists are gone,you all can have some sane and
courteous dialogue.

Boy am I glad Clinton has his hands on the rudder. AGHHHHH!

Several days ago I have posted here DJ/Gold chart and data about POSITIVE correlation between DJ and gold price in last 2+ months. Here is an update. Correlation coefficient for the period September 2 - November 12 is +0.82 ( was +0.749 ) . Last days they just follow each other, during current week even intraday. Here is updated chart.

"Nick K. Burns ( What`s worse, being Japanese or being a gold bug? ) ID#390397:
Gee, would you rather be long XAU stocks or Long the Nikkei right now?"

Nick, that's easy. A goldbug, because I have friends and cohorts across the world that share my pain, my suffering, and my passion.

Well it's happened! The world financial system is in the process of CRASHING! What started out as a little hole in the dike has now become a floodgate! First the Asian Tigers. Then Korea. Then HK! Then Japan! Now Brazil, Russia, Hungary and Eastern Europe! Next will be Mexico! Then the Western European democracies, and finally the US, Australia and Canada! This financial tsunami is UNSTOPPABLE and UNQUENCHABLE! It will not stop until it has bankrupted every nation on earth! We will have a global market meltdown unprecedented in human history! All financial instruments, all paper equity, in every currency will be destroyed! And when the conflagration finally comes to an end only one investment vehicle will be left standing--G-O-L-D!! Whatever world currency is to rise from the ashes of this global disaster one thing seems eminently clear--IT WILL BE BACKED BY GOLD!! If anyone out there still thinks this a temporary market correction I warn you now: IT ISN'T!! This is no less than judgement day for the fiat money system! Those who refuse to see the handwriting on the wall will suffer the permanent loss of their purchasing power! You MUST! I repeat. YOU MUST NOW SELL ALL PAPER ASSETS INCLUDING GOLD STOCKS, AND BUY PHYSICAL GOLD NOW! BEFORE IT BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO DO SO! ONLY GOLD WILL SURVIVE! And whatever its price in terms of dollars, it does not matter! For GOLD IS THE ULTIMATE HEDGE! It and it alone will determine the value of whatever world currency emerges from this debacle! Without it you don't stand a ghost of a chance of surviving the GLOBAL DEPRESSION we are now beginning to enter! I plead with you while there still is time--NOW IS THE TIME TO BE LOADING UP THE WAGON WITH GOLD!! I've been telling you this for months and I'm telling you again today! Don't put it off! Or you will live to regret it!

PS. Herr DA--I believe you are hot on the trail of what is going on with gold! Whether you have it 100% correct is anybody's guess, but if you don't have most of it correct I'll eat my cheesehead! Thanks for adding more fuel to the debate!

PPS-Don't forget to watch for the DOW TRANSPORTATION INDEX TO FALL BELOW 2885 for a DOW CONFIRMATION of the coming BEAR MARKET!

And now for more of a look at the international scene. It becomes more and more interesting to me that the USA and UK are on one side, while the French, Chinese and Russians are on the other relating to Iraq.

All that gold and the number one figment standard paper against the French, no friends to either, the Russians that lost a years worth of froward market movement, and the Chinese the 800lbs gorilla.

Throw in the recent meeting between the Japanese and the Russians and this geo-political mess gets even more complicated.

Meanwhile back in the states, nobody seems to remember stock market 101 - buy low, sell high. Mix that with the fact that Americans by and large think gold is dead. While it is clear that India, Russia, China, and Japan are buyers.

It's getting interesting out there.

D.A. I was so impressed by your 08:46 and your "wild theory" that I would like to post it at another forum of gold/silver investors at SI. If you don't want me to post verbatim then I would like to paraphrase. I can guarantee a reaction by some clear thinkers which I could bring back and post or email you. My email is rdfelty@nbn.net Markus, the same goes for your post this afternoon about the Roths and fundamentals.

Golden-Totally agree with your last post, all well summarized!!! I have a question for you. I have a lot of stock in gold mining companies. Needless to say this investment has crashed already. Do you think that XAU will resurect and do well in what is coming up?????

Markus, Kiwi,all: I think we need to keep something in perspective. I also mentioned the possibility of a gold backup currency being tested at the LBMA months ago. I have posted several times in the last two months regarding the Economic symposium at the University of Warwick UK, where the concept of secretly returning to the gold standard was almost the exclusive topic and mentioned that this was physically not far from the LBMA. I have the entire collection of Warwick gold-transition papers at home.
I propose that none of us at Kitco claim the credit singly -- this is not just yours, Vronsky's,ANOTHER's, mine, Kiwi's, DA's, SDRers etc. ideas.

If any one person deserves the credit for unraveling the LBMA mystery, it is Bart Kitco who made all of this possible.

Anyway, humility never hurt anyone!

I thought you were recommending selling gold? Should we buy stocks or US bonds, Japanese stocks or bonds, Brazilian stocks, Australian stocks, South & North East Asia stocks. You made a bunch of great calls. Enlighten us. Are you holding cdn or us funds?

Herr Steady--I believe that all paper and all currencies will be ravaged by this debacle. Whether the big boys have planned for this or not is anybody's guess at this juncture. But whatever the reason, paper will not survive and I believe this includes paper gold ( read gold stocks. Whether gold goes to $100.00/0z or $10,000.00/oz won't matter a whole lot if the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency and fails to maintain its value over against what IS! Hence gold and gold stocks could actually rise in dollar terms and yet be absolutely worthless in terms of whatever new world reserve currency emerges from this fiasco! As always IMHO!

JTF..I concur entirely, our gaining of wisdom is iterative...a leap frogging of analysis and intuition, made possible by the grace of the medium of exchange...the Internet and Bart Kitco for this forum. I congratulate Bart for the opportunity and for your reminder that wisdom is gained through seeking to understand in all humility!

Cheers!

People, the dow was down a healthy 2% today. Just right. Goldilocks situation. No panic. I`m so good at this!

`We believe we can handle this problem ourselves.''
Fears of a debt repayment crises have driven interest rates higher, punished Seoul's bourse and left the won extremely fragile,
fund managers said.

The won is down 17 percent against the U.S. dollar since the beginning of the year and bond yields are at two-year highs.

``You have to say the odds are there will be some sort of rescue package. If there isn't god knows what they will do,'' said
Dean Newman, fund manager at Invesco Asset Management.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/korea_investment_1.html

Comex warehouse gold stocks FELL 1,182 oz today to 570,178 oz. Silver stocks were unchanged/

Has anyone had the chance or time to update their Daily XAU chart. Eyeballing my XAU 2 years "daily" chart from Bigcharts.com, it appears that the XAU has now reached the bottom support line which goes back to July, l996. The XAU had previously bounced off this line three ( 3 ) times and if it ended on the line today than that will make 4 times. I will not know not know until I get home and find my 69 cents ruller.: ) ...If anyone has already updated their charts would appreciated feedback as to whether or not the XAU landed on that support line today....If it did, it's now truth or consequence time.:+ )

Donald: After Brazil today, what's next? Interesting isn't it that the markets drooped as much as they did, despite the Fed keeping rates constant. I found it interesting that gold bullion held up as well as it did, despite the drop in gold stocks. They will continue to drop if the market drops.
Nick ( @Aussie ) : Any comments? Not hard to guess on what will happen tomorrow. What worries me is that we also have Friday, the full moon. Certainly the Dow won't be going up! Could be a short term bottom for gold stocks.

Oh, one more thing! I've also put in a bid for 10 shares of GREEN BAY PACKER STOCK! It may actually be worth more some day than GOLD!At least in Wisconsin! : )

You must understand that with regard to relativity theory, gold goes up in US dollar terms faster than gold stocks, ergo, the view of the physical universe of gold is a planck's constant, as it were, in the market sense of monetary perspective in conjunction with wave theory as it applies to the universe.

And now the wise words of Roy Blumberg:

"I think that the intraday low that we made around 7000 on the Dow on Oct. 28 is probably
going to prove to be very close to the ultimate low," said Roy M. Blumberg, chief
investment strategist at Josephthal Lyon & Ross Inc. "Now we're going to spend some time
zigzagging back and forth and probably test near that low over the next month or so. Market
sentiment is bullish. Until the second dip goes a lot lower than the first dip, people are going
to continue to buy the dips. So, unless this market goes through 7000 and goes to, say 6500,
investors are simply not going to be scared." !#@!#@!#@!#@!#@!#@!#@!#@!
That reads "Investors are simply not going to be scared"!!!!

RIO, 12 - A tenso e o nervosismo voltaram a dominar os preges das bolsas de
valores brasileiras, na esteira do que aconteceu no mercado acionrio mundial. Mais
uma vez, o Brasil potencializou os temores que varrem o sistema financeiro, e, com
isto, a bolsa paulista chegou a cair mais de 10%, sendo acionado imediatamente o
sistema de "circuit breaker" que suspende os trabalhos por 30 minutos.

Apesar do esforo, a Bovespa encerrou o dia com um queda expressiva: 10,20%
( 7.822 pontos ) e um giro financeiro de R$ 746 milhes. A bolsa carioca percorreu a
mesma rota e, apesar de no suspendido o prego, amargou uma desvalorizao de
10,18%, com uma movimentao financeira limitada a R$ 28,6 milhes.

No mercado internacional, tornam-se cada vez mais freqentes as especulaes sobre
a sade financeira dos bancos japoneses e russos. Os especialistas argumentam que
a Coria, ao desvalorizar o won - desde o incio do ano o percentual chega a 17% -
acaba aumentando a competitividade dos seus produtos, e afetando o Japo - cuja
economia est combalida. Leve-se em conta ainda que as instituies bancrias do
Japo tem forte posio nos mercados asiticos, o que os coloca numa situao cada
vez mais delicada. Em meio a este cenrio, Wall Street tambm operou em baixa, o
que levou a Bolsa de Nova York a acionar o sistema de "circuit breaker" cada vez que
a desvalorizao atingia o patamar dos 50 pontos. Este mecanismo, explicam os
operadores, inverte as ordens - de compra ou venda - dos computadores para tentar
contornar as quedas abruptas. Nem mesmo o anncio de que o Federal Reserve ( Fed,
o banco central americano ) manteria as taxas de juros parece ter animado os
investidores de Wall Street.

Pelas contas do mercado, a bolsa de valores que j chegou a acumular uma alta de
94% at o dia 8 de julho, agora registra uma valorizao de apenas 11%. Por conta
desta retrao, muitos investidores que estavam se mantendo no mercado acionrio,
apesar das quedas, acabaram no sustentando suas posies, j que as bolsas de
valores no tm tido flego para retomar uma curva ascendente. Com a sada destes
investidores, os administradores de fundos acabam tendo de desfazer-se de parte dos
papis, puxando as cotaes para baixo. Mas alguns analistas consideram que este 
um bom momento para entrar na ponta de compra. Tais especialistas calculam que
dentro de seis meses as aes preferenciais da Telebrs devem valer R$ 150, cifra
bem supeior aos R$ 95,50 do fechamento do prego paulista. A queda hoje somou
8,61%.

Mas no foi apenas o carro-chefe do mercado acionrio nacional que despencou. As
aes ordinrias do Banese fecharam em queda de 40% enquanto as Lojas Arapu
registraram uma desvalorizao de 30% no prego de hoje. Aes de primeira linha
tambm sofreram quedas acentuadas. As aes preferenciais da Cemig caram
12,94%, encerrando a R$ 37. Os papis preferenciais da Petrobras amargaram uma
retrao de 10,71%, terminando a R$ 199,99.

Dentre as aes que compem o Ibovespa, nenhuma delas fechou em alta. O setor
bancrio tambm foi destaque nas quedas: Banespa PN ( 20,9% ) e Itausa PN ( 19,1% ) .

[Volta]

There's always seems to be a P.S. The daily chart I was referring to is a BAR chart not a LINE chart. Thank's in advance.

To all:
Check out xau meets elliot, yauger says xau must hold 76 and rally from there. Look at daily wrapup from Nov 6. http://www.mgl.ca/~yauger

Re: Uris 16:33 conmment "This is the best day at Kitco ...".
Gold down, XAU down 6%. If this is the best day, I shudder to think
what a bad day might be like :- ) . And I thought the decks were clear
for a gold share rally today, because I capitulated out of the
remaining gold fund holding yesterday, for a near zero return over
two years.

JTF
I believe its down to the bottom on this wave.
Capitulation is just around the corner.
The Golbal stockmarket carrier has been holed,
Just as the Titanic was.
It will just be a matter of how fast she takes on water.
Eventually she will be laid to reat on the ocean seabed.
May she rest in peace.
Swing charts updated.
Note the new downtrend on the short term swing chart.
Serious damage sustained
Second major ping- swing engaged

http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/MyHTML.htm

PARIS ( November 12, 1997 09:23 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - The
credit-rating agency IBCA said Wednesday it will review the individual
ratings of Japanese banks to take account of the effects of the financial
crisis in Southeast Asia.

The agency said that the Nikkei 225 stock index in Tokyo had fallen below
16,000 points and that therefore six banks no longer had hidden reserves
because their stock portfolios now showed capital losses.

The agency named these banks as the Long-term Credit Bank of Japan
( LTCB ) , Yasuda Trust, Nippon Credit Bank, Daiwa Bank, Hokkaido
Takushoku and above all Fuji Bank.

IBCA, which is owned by the French Fimalac group, said: "It is our intention
to ensure that the poor condition of the banks is appropriately reflected in
our individual ratings."

IBCA noted that the purpose of these ratings "is to indicate a bank's
stand-alone financial strength."

The Nikkei 225 index closed on Wednesday at 15,434.17 points to show a
loss of 433.06 points on the day. This was the lowest value since July 6,
1995.

IBCA said that the slump of prices could not have come at a worse time for
Japanese banks which had to make big provisions for doubtful loans.

If the stock market remained weak, Japanese banks would have to make
choices between making provisions for poor loans and capital losses on
stock portfolios in order to respect capital-adequacy rations required by the
Bank for International Settlements.

At the end of the 1997-98 fiscal year to March 31 some banks would have
no choice but to cheat, IBCA warned. They would have to do so either by
delaying provisions which, however, were absolutely vital, or by delaying
the effect of stock losses on their accounts.

The health of Japanese banks was also being weakened by the poor
general state of the Japanese economy which had not yet entered a
recovery cycle.

IBCA also expressed concern about what it termed a lack of determination
by authorities in coping with problems in the Japanese financial sector.

But IBCA estimated that the risk to creditors and for depositors from the
state of Japanese banks was limited.

It said: "In addition to a general review of our individual ratings, we will be
undertaking a selective review of our long-term ratings with a focus on
those banks where the divergence between their credit rating and their
underlying financial conditions become most acute."

Date: Wed Nov 12 1997 17:28
Byron (@ Technicals:) ID#252132:

To Techkies: The "Ultimate Oscillator" also available at Bigcharts.com should show tomorrow its lowest reading during this two years period. The indicator is down in the "buy" area. ...It just doesn't say "what day" to buy. :- )

NJ: Agree with digdeep, 76 is the support area, the line in the sand, the make or break line. Tomorrow is important. But with gold its seems recently that "eveyday" has become important. When is this train going to leave the station. My luggage is loaded and I would like to sit back and enjoy the ride. I previously stateted that I felt that the CB'ers ( central bankers ) were trying to drive the price of gold back into the ground from whence it came. We are now at ground zero. Here's hoping we hold that line. ( - - )

Donald have Nikkei Futures stopped trading ? Where do you get this number?

nomercy ( Brazil samba's ( tension and nervousness as Bolsas loses 10.2% ) Vronsnky your translation skills are needed, please. ) :

I have about another 8 hours of work before I can hit the sack, so I cannot translate each line. However, the gest of the entire article is the following.

Tension and nervousness dominate Brazilain Stock Exchanges in Rio de Janneiro and Sao Paulo yet another day. Sell orders were so heavy in Sao Paulo that trading STOPS went into effect for 30 minutes. The Brazilian Stock Index closed down 10.2%, however a couple stocks plummeted 30% and 40%!

The deluge of sell orders reflects in part the banking crisis in Japan & Russia - which is spilling over into Brazil.

The outlook is grim.

JTF: After Brazil, what next? Let me suggest Argentina and Uruguay. The other day you suggested I was being too gloomy. Do you want to take that back? ( grin thing )

Seriously, there is more on Brazil to come but Korea is an even bigger worry. The action in US banks today seems to say that we have an unannounced bank failure on our hands. Hard to tell if it is a US bank but it will impact them all. We are in meltdown mode and it will have to play out. Our XAU/Spot Ratio took its biggest one day hit since we started posting it. Still waiting for someone to say "the fundamentals are sound" I have not heard that one in the past several days.

No Mercado, I mean Mercy: you got that in Spanish too by any chance? Is tomorrow and Monday looking to be major tankage days for the markets?

Johnson: I heard it on CNBC. They trade on CBOE I suspect.

The fact that the gold stocks continue to act worse than the metal is bearish short-term. This is not the kind of action one associates with a major bottom. Volume much too low for a climax. Bullion already down 40 cents on access; tomorrow looks like another bad day.

I still think we will see the bottom in the near future, but it could be quite a bit lower than current depressed readings. If bullion drops below $300 with conviction, the XAU will almost certainly plunge under 70 in very short order. And XAU 50 is not out of the question if gold drops to $270. Still looking for a selling climax on HUGE volume before this golden grizzly is over.

Australia All Ordinaries after 15 minutes of trading: -1.42%

New Zeland NZSE40 after 15 minutes of trading: -2.42%

See http://quote.yahoo.com/intlmarkets

Sorry, server error, try again!
JTF, thankyou for your response. I supposed you have read the story book in website http://members.tripod.com/~neocosmo/
IMHO, I perceived these world's markets as the battle fields between two group of entities:
One group is those billion-year old, intelligent and invisible angels, they are merciless.
The other is God's chosen servants, intelligent humans with some mercy, our leaders in the world.

In 1987' crash, the angels want to make it like 1929's , so they can continue herd human beings into merciless wars.
But, our leaders won and saved the market in 87 and continue boom up to 97 on.
And the battles are so intensified that Volitility is Tsunamies and our leaders cannot sleep overnite, watching Asian and European markets...
But, regular natural man are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED, and complained our leaders manipulate market.
They don't know our leaders are fighting with invisible entities and saved human beings in 87.
Yes, the Lord God is watching and in control, albeit there will be sacrificice for His righteousness to those accuser angels.

Concerning Goldbugs, this is my parable:
When a loving mother is fighting and winning, she scolded her timid son: "You lazy bug, join the majority, come and fight!" but the timid son run away from her battles.
Later, when she is terribilly wounded on death bed, knowing she will die soon, she sent and called her beloved surviving bug:
"I want to see you save and sound for my last sight, escape for your life, forsake me, go in peace, because I love you forever!"

http://webservices.pcquote.com/cgi-bin/cboeget.exe?TICKER=nik

1997: Don't look for advice from me. I sold almost all my gold holdings in Nov 1996 and am still waiting for a sign of a bottom to look at buying back in. That is why I am interested in Japans's threat to sell US debt and buy gold. I don't buy the idea that Japan has decided that the U$ is finished despite the enthusiaism that the idea receives here. I see no rational from the Japanese on why they would do such a thing--just that they are thinking about it. I suggest it is a threat---help us or we will dump your bonds.

Take a look at these two articles from the popular press http://www.usatoday.com/money/mphotof.htm http://www.usatoday.com/money/s024.htm

From Kaplan today:



KWG Resources Ltd. of Canada said the weakness in the prices of both gold and gold mining shares
have delayed its ability to obtain financing required to complete pre-production activities [the early
stages of mine setup prior to operation] for its various planned gold projects in Russia.

Various rumors about central banks possibly selling gold have been traced to a few European investment
houses that are heavily short the yellow metal. The Bundesbank reiterated that under no circumstances
would it consider selling gold, though it does lend out about ten percent of its holdings.

This has been truly painful. Like a dentist's drill man.

IMF interference in Indonesia to last for years
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/971113/world/world1.html

AlKahulik: YOUR: Could the attempt to create a gold backed Euro be causing the gold slump? If the gold price is low, doesn't that make it easier to create a gold backed Euro?

HERES your answers:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/oracle714.html

Previous posts from D.A., JTF, Skylark, Neophyte, Vronsky and others too numerous to mention have seemingly arrived at the notion that what we are seeing in the current gold market is quite consistent with the following scenario.
Large quantities of gold ( up to 8,000 tons ) has been loaned out of the world's central banks with the borrowers probably converting the gold to needed foreign reserves earning better interest rates than the cost of the loaned gold, commonly known as an arbitrage play. As an added bonus this borrower may or may not short sell the market with their borrowed gold, doing quite well thank you in a bear market, before picking up their desired currency. However as they come to rely on this source of seemingly easy money their own primary currency is suddenly devalued so who do they look to for a quick "fix" but the good old LMBA. So everytime we hear of another currency crisis there is an accompanying spike down in the gold price as the gold borrowers short or sell into the market.
Relevant questions to ask here are; who initiated such a hare-brained scheme in the first place or was it a carefully planned trap?, who is buying up the essentially borrowed gold?, will the gold borrowers ever have to repay the physical gold?, and when will the gold price stop going down?
Maybe this will go down in history as the gold loan scam/debacle.
What it highlights for me is what interest really is. To expect to earn interest on loaned out gold is ludicrous, the gold does nothing but sit there, it generates no income, how can you earn interest on it? Naturally the same thing can be said for any form of stored value, eg money. Now we are that the root cause of many of societies ills, banks expect to earn interest on their money, this is usery, as they actually have no real interest whatsoever as to what you do with that loan as long as they get their "interest".
Now if I was to put some of my money towards the purchase of a family farm or plant for a business I would have a real physical interest in what happens, I might even help out mucking out the stables on the odd occasion, can you picture a banker doing this because they have an interest in you? You see banks were originally a store of value and you gave then enough to keep safe your worldly belongings, now however most banks are trading and playing the money changing game and the laws are rapidly being repealed to allow more banks to trade and more financial institutions to "bank", whatever this means anymore. This will end in tears as it has done every other time in history.

Mike Stewart, thanks for your analysis @17:31.

LATEST ON CURRENCIES

Internationally acclaimed market analyst, James Dines, shares his insights and foresights with us about current currency crisis.

Asia is awash in hammered & cascading currencies. The deluge of devaluations in South East Asia is spilling over into other countries on the opposite side of the globe -- and will wreak havoc in world stock markets. The Currency Contagion continues unabated...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/dines1110.html

Golden Cheesehead--Although I agree with most of your pronouncements, I disagree strongly that mining stocks will be destroyed. This world has never seen the economic interdependence that we have now, and the panic and fear will be something to behold. Mining stocks will drop in a meltdown, but as gold begins to move explosively, I believe, upward, mining stocks will follow--people will not be able to buy physical, and companies with proven reserves in the ground will multiply in value--of course, down the road a period of time, we cannot forecast what the powers that be will do to private ownership of gold or stock--pay off all debts ASAP.

288000 :: Please peddle your religion on a religious board, leave this one for the PMs. otherwise you will invite pagan retributions your religion ( and most others ) has killed millions, leave us alone.

http://www.dir.co.jp/Investment/derivative/qdve1121.html
Nikkei 225 future daily trading volume.

Just to refresh your memories--for those of you who TRADE shares on the XAU ( as opposed to buy and hold ) , Extend down to the slanting line at 76 and that is where we are now sitting--RIGHT ON THE LINE. From a trader's standpoint -- THIS is the time to buy for a bounce back and a quick sale. If that slanting line is broken to the downside--get out quick. You may be zugswanged--but better safe than sorry as below that line you don't know where the bottom is. I'm getting in now for a bounce. I'll be out if it doesn't. For chart readers--this is buy time.

http://www.mgl.ca/~yauger/Xweekly.html

Byron and Dig Deep : Sorry about that. Must have been dreaming. It's not too far back was it when 96 was the trendline.

Why do many advocate not holding gold stocks in the event ( the market crashes and ) gold surges? They represent ownership in a tangible entity. Are you suggesting a breakdown in the legal system and the concept of property rights? If that happens it is bullets, not gold that I want to hold. Someone help me out here.

Oh dear Nikkei looking to breach 15000 today. Down 266 -1.72%

Saddam's secret weapon against US jets
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/971113/pageone/pageone3.html

The Kitco Board has been Hi-Intelligence Command Center today.
Kudos to the many who posted such solid information, theories, etc.,
wo brillantly. Quite a day.

To Kiwi for the masterly summation at 18:51, it certainly resonates.

And this trivia: I still hold a little stock for old times sake, & because in times past, mutual fund managers would oft park there for respite; I think of it as a bullion money market ( CEF ) and it was UP 1/16 today.
Do you think there is one mutual fund manager who doesn't buy into
the rhetoric?

Rumours of Clinton departing Whitehouse?
Rumours of Iraq hotting up?
Any super sleuths found any info on these subjects?

Did not take too long for investors to start taking money out from mutual funds insstead of riding it through ;- )
LGB? cat? any comments?
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/u_s_stock_funds_lose_1.htmlfunds

Carnage continues in Asia. What is the threshold before Japanese banks get into serious trouble. Anyone know ?

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971112/u_s_stock_funds_lose_1.html

NJ,
Japannese banks have been in trouble for the last 3 years. The problem there has been managed the same way as our plunge protection team is managing our soft landing right now.

Had trouble with the URL ( repost?- )
- I must be alone with my 401k- I evacuated into MMF in July and haven't moved since.. 8 ) Though I am seriously considering taking the tax bite 01/01/1998 and getting my hands on it.
BBL cmh

The Kitco Board has been Hi-Intelligence Command Centra; today.
Kudos to the many who posted such solid information, incisive ideass, and dry witticisms. Quite a day.

To Kiwi for the masterly summation at 18:51, it certainly resonates.

And this trivia: I still hold a little stock for old times sake, & because in times past, mutual fund managers would oft park there for respite; I think of it as a bullion money market ( CEF ) and it was UP 1/16 today.
Do you think there is one mutual fund manager who doesn't buy into
the rhetoric?

Der Nikkei ist KAPUTT! Down 1.5% to 15199. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that CHINA buys JAPAN, who it could never beat in a war. Almost as amazing as going to the moon and back. We indeed live in interesting times.

Nick : Lead story on ITN World News tonight was Clinton and Gore answering questions on fund raising from the White House, with their lawyers present. Had many clips of Clinton glad handing Asian donors. One shot was right in the Oval office. Possibility of influencing policy decisions by foreigners was mentioned. Seems Reno has until January to appoint an independent counsel. Possibility of the two facing criminal charges was also mentioned.

Looks like we need a little good news. Well, maybe this will help a little.

Upgrades

Company Symbol Brokerage Firm Upgrade from:  Upgrade to:
Echo Bay Mines ECO Morgan Stanley Underperform  Neutral

So its a start, maybe they will even recommend some of them soon.

Nick: Thanks for the comments on the XAU. ....To All My simple ( but complex ) 9 waves integrated trading system shows on one of my alternative counts that the XAU in in its 9th wave down from the top of the current move which began on October 1, l997. We now await the bottoming of this down wave. Will it be tomorrow???

To those who are interested, John Murphy of former CNBC fame is now appearing on the AVID chat site. http://avidtrader.com/chat ...If your not registered you need to do so to lurk or participate.

John disappeared from CNBC the day the trouble started. He was never given a chance to do any T.A. on the repercussions of the Asian meltdown.

Does he say anything about that?

Nick ( @Aussie ) : Your 17:27! Did you upload all 20 *.gid files, and then refer to them with your posted html file -- Haven't figured out how you did it! Still looking in amazement at all the graphics!
SDRer: Don't fully understand your 17:39, but KISS I do understand -- an engineering term. You are right about that - all that matters is that the "powers that be" will risk virtually anything to keep the world's financial system stable. The CB's and everyone else in the industrialized world consider our current financial system essential to our way of life. My only problem is that I don't know how far they will go to protect it. I doubt Germany, France, England, the US and Switzerland will actually sell gold -- but they may loan all of it, if that is what it takes to let the markets come down gracefully. I hope they have enough left to do this, and I hope it is done in such a way that it does not delay our recovery if things do not go as planned.

A. Goose: I jumping back and forth between Kitco and Avid at the moment. John started answering question less than 10 minutes ago. So far no questions on Asia. He should be at the chat site for 1 hour. But if anyone misses his commentary, Avid stores chats from special guests which can be read latter on.... Ok, back I go to Avid.

Japan -315

SDRer, Nick ( @Aussie ) : Mathematicians tend to be musicians for some reason -- I think it has to do with a certain mathematics to the rythmic cycles. I suspect there is also a link between math and the rythms of poetry -- Nick -- you certainly have shown us that!
Signing off for my son ------ will check in later.

JTF
Yes I saved the Excel file in html format.
The 20 gif files are all linked to the html file.

You can see on the swing chart how we are now on a down swing.
Looking at the adv/dec/unc charts short term,
You can see the ping within the stocks.
It is currently expanding out nicely.
This is what I'm refering to as the second ping.
It should be larger than the last ping.

These pings always come in series.
Expanding out, then contracting in.
Because the first ping was so large,
I deduce that the next one will be huge.

Japan looks like it is going under 15000.
It seems that the investors there have reached a stage of capitulation.
Next the rest of the world.
Unless the 'powers who be' step in.

If the mkts are breaking for the first time since 1990 IT MUST BE SADDAM TIME. If Saddam aint the elected crisis/cover maker of the CFR/trilaterals then nobody is. Though they are grasping at straws and Econ events may overtake the CFR Trilateral types. The French and Russkies are Trilateral but probably want to be the heads of Trilateral versus the US thus the conflict continues and there is hope for those CRAZY BUGS.

Gold is in both a short and long term down trend. Silver is now in both a short and long term up trend. The XAU is in both a short and long term down trend. The CRB is in a short term up trend and a long term down trend. The major market indicies are in short and long term down trends. Bonds are in both short and long term up trends ( bullish for bonds ) . The dollar remains in both a long and short term down trend.

Alright, all you folks who are going to the 10th Anniversary of the Western Investment in Mining Conference ( Gold Show ) at the San Francisco Marriott on November 30 - December 1, l997, please raise your hand.... For info you can call 1-800-282-7469 ( only in the U.S. and Canada ) Phone: ( 305 ) 669-1963 or Fax: ( 305 ) 669-7350

XAU down 5 1/2 % my gold portfolio down only 1 1/2 %. Does that mean
I am smart or dumb?

E,
Sadam was good for the market in 1991, and he is usefull again. Americans love him.

A test of the Gray-Monday lows is in progress. Already, many averages have broken down below the lows from that dark and dreary Monday 2 1/2 weeks ago. For example, London's FTSE Index, Japan's Nikkei, Brazil, and the advance-decline line on the NYSE -- have all broken into new-low territory. The rest of the US averages and global averages should break into new-low territory by Monday, if not sooner. Then, all hell will break loose. Be positioned in S&P puts before then. LAST CALL: The lights are being turned off. The intoxicated bulls are being sent home to recover from a nasty hang-over. This one will be a doozy. It will make Gray-Monday look like a picnic.

Per the attached article 65 CB's are active in gold leasing market. Does anyone know if there is a limit to how much they can lease. As I understand it, Germany will lease up to 10% of their reserves. I also have heard that total CB holdings of gold is 28,000 tons. Obviously more than 10% of total CB holdings have been leased as the estimated number is between 3,000-8,000 tons ( which is a very wide range ) . Is there anyway to find out if there is an agreement between the CB's as to how much each CB can lend on a % basis?

http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5919105-1b5

I have another really dumb question but being a neophyte I still have a lot to learn and that is:

When a CB leases its gold, does it stay on their books as part of their reserves? I'm just wondering if say Country A ( Switzerland ) leases its gold to country B ( Korea ) and Country B sells this leased gold to County C ( Japan ) does that sale from County B to Country C end up on County C's books as part of its reserves? What happens if Country B can't repay the loan to Country A?

I do appreciate all the responses. I have learned a great deal today.

ARS: You were lucky.

My dad told me their was four things necessary to make it
big in the stock market:


1. Luck



2. Luck



3. Luck



4. Information

 a mind that can think, it is worth life itself
Markus has given a great thought! If it could happen
the world would gain much. But it will not.


Date: Wed Nov 12 1997 14:26
Markus ( BIS Decisions ) ID#283277:
ANOTHER: Could you please enlighten us as to the Bank
of International Settlement decision you allude to in your
recent post?

Markus,
A BIS meeting was held and from those doors the world
did change. The Bundesbank has now made clear to all what
will now be policy for CBs. A crisis is at hand! All physical
gold sales will stop. All gold lending will wind down. We will
see the results of this as a massive scramble to cover open
positions slowly unfolds. All of us will see the destruction of
the gold market as we know it, LBMA will be no more!

Jumping back and forth between Kitco and Avid and who do I run into but ANOTHER!!!!

In only 3 minutes the Hong Kong show is to begin. Mr.Haruhito Crashimoto must be watching on his screen in Japan. Let's see how the twins do tonight. Us markets lost $243 billion in market cap today.

Byron:Only if there's a Central Banker there to throw things at.har har..
Maybe they could set up a dunk tank with one as the target?All proceeds
to those who invested in Gold related instruments this year.

Mexico:You obviosly picked a good company.What you should look at is if
your pick is on a delayed reaction.That is...will it play catch ( up/down )
behind the market.This happens.Stay tuned....system outage may not be
temporary...adjust your set accordingly.

The Most Probable Candidate for a gold back currency is the SDR.

It exists; it is used in transactions public and private; it is convertible.

It belongs to no one nation or BLOCK of nations.

The basket from which it derives consists of the 5 countries with the largest export/import trade, so it shows no favor.

The basket will be reconfigured next in December 1999, and will include
China.

China has spoken out before regarding backing a convertible currency with gold.

Byron : What did Another have to say on Avid ? Curious.

JTF, thanks for the reply on Gold. I agree that it just isn't following a logical pattern. I'm eager to buy more Bullion coins, but wondering about my timing.

The dance band on the Titanic played "Nearer my God to Thee", with iceberges off the starboard bow. Won't you dance with me?...

I saw an interesting story in the Times today about how a cashier's check has been found which was an illegal loan from McDougal to Clinton. Finally some hard evidence of the allegations. Now that Clinton has lost his Fast Track legislation, could this lock him in as a lame duck? And could that add to the mistrust and chaos in leadership that will help expedite turmoil in the markets? I think that the days of happy stability are over.

Also, look at how we are snubbed ny Iraq in this U.N. thing. No respect for the U.S. position. Saddam is obviously making some weapons of mass destruction, which will come back to haunt the U.N. eventually. This is bullish for Gold but not so good for our allies.

I agree with your last post Mr. Puetz. I've been following the patterns here and I believe the Bear market has truly arrived. If you look at the increase in new lows it's bad news. Then there's the volatility and high volume. The Asian crises just get's worse, I wonder what will happen tonight?

Then we have Allan Greenspan today, failing to raise rates and giving his usual happy speech. This used to drive the market up. Today it drove the market down. What does all this tell us? The irrational exuberance days are over! The Bear has begun. How far and for how long should the market fall before the talking heads see it and call it the Bear that it is?

Now if only Gold would respond appropriately.

It appears that @ midnight tonight Canada Post goes on strike----should be dealt with the way Reagan dealt with the air-controllers srike!!---fire the whole damn bunch of em!!! $17.41/hour is already too much to deliver a damn letter.....let alone givin em another 8%....Friday our local police force goes on strike ( same philosophy---fire the whole bunch of em!!....The postal union GOONS are already makin their not so veiled threats to do whatever it takes to stop replacement workers ( ie. threats of violence--which are easy to make when you have thousands of other MORONS right behind you....

Well Ted, labor is now starting to exercise their muscle after years of quiet. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar things in the U.S. After all, we had all these years of corporate profits getting better to fuel our stock bubble. Yet no real wage increases for the employee's. Now the inflationary pressures of labor begin.

Who will win? Inflation or deflation? This dilemna confuses me. I don't know which would be best for Gold. In the past inflation drove it a lot higher, but many here are calling for deflation because of Asia. What do you think?

Wow! I just checked foreign markets and see that Nikkei is down to 15,234. Did not someone here recently post that 15,500 was a very important support level? Most of Asia also falling. Then I see brazil dropped more than 10% today. Venezeula and Mexico also off sharply.

It would appear the slippery slope has begun! Predictions for U.S. markets tomorrow anyone?

Check out Larouche web site, he tells us that the present system must go bankrupt and a new system must be implemented. Ya know he predicted a currency collapse starting in october several months ago. Look at his radio interview ( EIR talks with Larouche ) at www.Larouchepub.com

Folks, it's been a long day. Do I see gold UP $.30?
Wow, in view of how gold has performed lately, I would call that "rally" ;- )

Given the fact that the FOMC has seen fit NOT to raise US rates, I think Kitcoites might find the following of interest. It is the text of a posting which I just made to the investment newsgroups.

In our first issue of 1997, The Privateer published a study which showed
that the Dow had not enjoyed more than two consecutive years of 20% plus
annual gains since the start of the Reagan Bull in 1982.

In 1995, the Dow gained 33.45%. In 1996, the gain was 26.01%. The point
was that historically, the Dow could not expect anything like those gains
in 1997.

Of course, at its 1997 high of 8259, the Dow had gained another 28.09%
for the year to that time. Now, at its November 12 close of 7401, the
Dow's annual gain has been reduced to 14.77%

We subsequently published a study on our website showing that, in fact, The Dow has not enjoyed more than two consecutive years of 20% plus gains in this century.

We have put up a new page at the Subscribers Pages section of our website, with a further refinement of this data. This shows that while the Dow has never had three consecutive years of 20% plus annual gains, there has been one period this century where the AVERAGE annual gain worked out to more than 20% over three years. This was in the period 1933-35, the bounce from the greatest crash ever on the U.S. stock market.

The page shows every two year period of 20% plus average annual gain on the Dow in this century. It also shows what happened in the year following these two year periods ( there have been 12 of them since 1900 ) .

Anyone who thinks that the recent "volatility" on Wall St is simply
another opportunity to "buy on dips" should take a look at this study.
So should anyone who agrees with the recent surveys in which investors
said that they expected annual gains of 40% plus for the next decade.

The Privateer is at http://www.the-privateer.com

This study is being made available to non-subscribers.
The url of the page is
http://www.the-privateer.com/sample/dowhist.html

BT NEWS : http://www.asia1.com.sg/biztimes/4/nasia01.html

OFF...HAPPY!

From what I see labor is exercising their stupidity in this case ( Canada Post ) --called shooting yourself in the foot disease-- Go replacement workers!! 19.59/hour to deliver mail?????? And from what I've seen of their service and work ethic they'd be OVERPAID @ $10/hour....

The crash team must be busy in futures trading: Chicago S&P500 and NASDAQ100 futures have turned around and are now +5/+5.5 positive, respectively.This is relatively "cheap" way to influence the markets for the morning session. Let's see how much that will buy them.

DEFLATION!

Geez Ted, you're getting just like Earl ....

No opinions at all on anything !

Just because the cops are going on strike shouldn't really bother you however I can just imagine the police that'll be needed when the welfare checks are delayed by the post office ! Hell the whole of Cape Breton will shut down because no-one will have any money to spend !

Enjoy the picket lines Ted .... ( :- ) ) )

TTFN

Everything's going to fine Ted.Your welfare check should arrive late,par
usual................... http://www.canoe.ca/TopStories/nov12_postal.html

Global Gold Market Deficit Is 700 Tonnes Larger Than Consensus Estimates
- Aggregate Short Position Too Large To Be Covered

Noted international gold market analyst Frank Veneroso said today that Bundesbank disclosure of massive gold loans ``confirms our view that the global gold market deficit is 700 tonnes larger than consensus estimates and that the aggregate short position in the gold market is too large to be covered... This is the beginning of a reappraisal of the gold market that will slowly unfold...''
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/971112/ny_bundesbank_gold_1.html

hn_murphy: . . . . Wed, Nov 12, 7:26PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
easydoesit: Gold stocks look terrible. They plunged to a new low today. The
deflationary tendencies make them look very unattractive

Does anyone know anything about Royal Oak Gold. They will have the Kemess mine up and running by next april. It will have a cost of $79 per oz. of gold using $1 copper offset. They expect 250,000 oz. per yr. for 16 yrs. Thats over $2.50 per share ( less than 14,000,000 shares ) , yet the stock is selling for less than $2 today. Info anyone?

Something to think about, maybe 65 or 70 on the XAU. Maybe not.

"Zugzwang" - Doesn't that mean if it's your turn to move, you must lose? ( from chess )

After five + years In Cape Breton I've seen the DAMAGE the union-welfare mentality ( ???? ) can cause....The Postal union ( due to their utter brilliance ) will deliver all the U.I-welfare checks to all the Bretoners so the leemings don't riot----guess they know what's up here!!

And how dare you compare me to that "crusty ole fart" ( Earl ) !!!said with grin thingy.......go scabs!!

Does the European whatever it is, have the strength to push China, Russia, Japan and the Tigers around. That would seem to be what Another is saying. Plus, throw in the Middle East mix or oil bloc. It seems to me that there is a great deal of upheaval going on and I doubt that any one body has the power of any kind to implement such a "masterful" as it has been called plan.

South America is not a dog to be led around. Australia, India and Africa, all these have to be dealt with.

And then we have lemming central, the United States. It would seem to me that the far right is going to have some pretty big problems returning the seat of power to Europe. The SDR has possibilities, but how will Americans react to not being the number 1 kid on the block.

Then again, how stupid can Americans be. Gold is dead, but the Euro is going to have to be tied to it. The bankers made that very plain today by saying that no more gold is for sale. A complete reversal of their position in the recent past.

And Americans sit and have no clue what to invest in. In addition, you have many puppets saying gold is dead. And Americans sit and have no clue what to invest in.

Like I said before. The best way to get away with something is to do it right out in the open.

Cueball -- Yup, gold stocks do look terrible here. Now for a forward looking question, who is going to buy whom?

john_murphy: . . . . Wed, Nov 12, 7:53PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
degoto I don't hve a specific target for gold. 280 was the low hit in 1985. That could
be a target.

John Murphy - Interview
http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/JohnM.html

The Most Probable Candidate for a gold back currency is the SDR.

Why else does the Economist, its Economic Indicators section, Commodity Price Index  track in 3 currencies:
Dollar Index
Sterling Index
SDR INDEX

Mr. Rupert Pennant-Rea, a member of the Group of 30, is the former editor of the Economist.

SDRer: Howdy. What is the dollar in SDR terms?

panda ( @ Something to think about, maybe 65 or 70 on the XAU. Maybe not.
I agree with you panda. The current is very bullish - referring back to early 1993.

It's going to get ugly in the market real soon. Projecting DOW to around 2400 or less within two years. Get ready to short the market big time and slowly load up on hard assets.

Just pounded the Raptors. Go GoLd

Shek re 22:00 post: I'm speechless! Thanks for the tip. Do you have any guesses as to the timeframe before this hits the market?

Panda,

Don't know. What I do know is that everytime I go to my local coinery with the game plan to buy X% gold Eagles with my Platinum Eagles, I come away with all Platinum.

Secondly, Based on some info I have recently come across, $250.oo Au is very likely but for none of the reasons previously discussed, but until I'm convinced it stays with me.

Shek: In your view, what happens if the positions cannot be covered?

223,
This goes well with what ANOTHER has been saying on this site for 4 weeks now. My guess is as good as yours.
I think it hasmstarted and will come to a climax within 3 months.

tolerant1,
I think it's called a locked market. Nothing for sale.

Nick:
Thanks for the John Murphy dialog. It is very helpful. He isn't into currencies, and isn't much into the asian markets. ... more later my daughter is pushing me off the computer.

Tell yer daughter to shove it.

Vronsky, Cueball -- What's wrong with this picture ( chart ) , CRB up ~20% and the XAU is down ~50% of it's 1993-95 highs.

Stop trying ta be so rational---up is down,ain't it....Can you believe NEM @ 31??

panda: your post: Wed Nov 12 1997 22:07

The chart indicates Gold has a direct relationship to the CRB, if we get the CRB rising again, with OIL possibly, than Gold will follow. Gold is a component of the CRB. and when it begins to rise t will drive the CRB up very rapidly.

I wonder how high the CRB would be if Gold wasnt in the toilet? They have driven Gold down in an attempt to create the illusion of no inflation. If Golds true value were input in the equation, the CRB real number has to be close to a record high.

More trouble for clinton. Check out www.impeachment.org

Shek: So the price goes ballistic in terms of dollars? I have been a buyer of physical and e-gold. I have moved into platinum and silver coins as well in both instances.

Something very bad looms as the markets tank and the gold loans and shorts all start clanking at or in the same time frame. Should make the newspaper more interesting.

Funny is it not, that with all the photographers chasing people that you never see photos of the Roths. What, they only leave the vault at night?

To whit, one might ask, if gold is so 'worthless', why bother to mine it? As far I as know ( and it may not be much ) , you need two people to make a market, and you need a market to determine a price. Please spare me the commie philosophy of the government 'determining' prices. In the end, the government determines that everything, save for itself, is worthless. Unfortunately, that same government feels the need to own all that is worthless. What a paradox.

Kitco Commenteers,
Looks like the lemmings are all jumping off the cliff AGAIN. Predictions for the morrow, I'd say a steep drop in all sectors. Does anyone think differently?

This is what McDougal has to say about Clinton. http://www.foxnews.com/js_index.sml?content=/news/wires2/n_1112_57.sml

tolerant1,
Roths value their privacy.
I have found "Gold Newsletter" recommendations profitable and their information useful. Frank V. seems to be a straight shooter. In light of that, his estimate of at least 700 tons short spells big trouble. I wonder if ANOTHER knows Frank?
Do you find e-gold beneficial. Wouldn't you feel safer with physical posession?

ANYBODY GOT A VIEW OR DATA ON HOW MUCH PHYSICAL GOLD IS SITTING IN THE BINS OF THE MINING COS. THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY THE 'BIG-BOYS'...ABX, NEWMONT...
AND I WONDER IF ALL THOSE PILES ARE GETTIN LARGER OR SMALLER LATELY, CAN WE ASSUME ANYTHING HERE ?? AND CAN THIS MUSCLE ULTIMATELY BE FLEXED SINCE THE AGGREGATE MITE BE QUITE LARGE ??

WHO SAYS YOU GOTTA MORTGAGE EVERYTHING [FORWARD SALES]; DOESN'T EVERYONE HAVE A "PIGGY-BANK" AT HOME... EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE TALKIN 'BOUT DOLLARS, NOBODY TALKIN CHANGE !!

HighRise -- I'm not being sarcastic here, but have you looked at new cars or trucks lately? I don't care if Pentium II processors go to $5 a piece ( I would throw another one in the PC though, at that price ) , it doesn't help me if I have to replace my automobile which has increased in price by ~30% or so since I last bought one.... That's not inflation, it's just a cost of 'living'... :- )

Go figure, my sister inlaw paid $8 for a cup of coffee at a stand in downtown Tokyo a couple of years ago. That means a 50 cup percolator would sell for $400. What would you rather have the pot of coffee or a nice 1oz gold coin?

Tort,
The market is getting too hairy for timid ones like me, can you tell me which Walmart sells that bucking bronco?

Mo

Trying again.

McDougal Says Found Check Will "Hang'' Clinton
7.03 p.m. EDT ( 003 GMT ) November 12, 1997

WASHINGTON  Convicted Whitewater figure James McDougal said prosecutor
Kenneth Starr will use a check to President Bill Clinton from Madison Guaranty
Savings & Loan to "hang'' the president and his wife.

McDougal told the Washington Times in an interview that the 1982 cashier's check,
recently discovered in the trunk of an abandoned car, was a loan from the failed
savings and loan firm and that the two men agreed to conceal the transaction.

Clinton has testified under oath that he never got a loan from Madison.

McDougal, speaking to the paper from a federal prison medical center in Fort
Worth, Texas, said the check and other newfound documents contradict Clinton's
testimony and provide a major break for Whitewater prosecutors.

"They're going to hang them with the documents that they got,'' McDougal told the
paper. "It certainly proves the chief executive perjured himself when he said he never
obtained a loan from Madison Guaranty.''

Workers at a Little Rock, Arkansas, junkyard found a check for some $27,000,
payable to Clinton, in the trunk of a 1980 Mercury Marquis abandoned by a former
Madison courier 10 years ago.

The check was not endorsed.

Clinton's lawyer, David Kendall, has said the documents "may have the authenticity
and credibility of a newly discovered and freshly written Elvis autobiography.''

But Henry Floyd, the former Madison employee who owned the abandoned car, said
in a story published Wednesday in the Austin American Statesman: "If that's so, then
we'd better get investigators out there because Elvis Presley is alive.''

He told the newspaper that Whitewater investigators showed him the check last
August. "I've seen the check and the check is real. I don't want to call the president a
liar...but he made false statements about the check,'' said Floyd, who now works in
Austin at the Texas Department of Transportation.

Kendall said the check may have been one issued in the amount of $27,600 to pay off
a loan at a bank owned by McDougal  a $30,000 loan McDougal took out in August
1981 to provide capital at the Whitewater real estate jointly owned by McDougal and
the Clintons.

Kendall said "neither the president nor Mrs. Clinton had signed for this loan,'' but
has not explained why Madison would have issued a check to Clinton.

Starr is investigating whether the president or first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton
played any part in fraudulent business deals in Arkansas in the mid-1980s, when
Clinton was the state's governor.

The Clintons deny all allegations of wrongdoing and have not been charged with any
crime. However, several former supporters and associates, including McDougal and
his ex-wife Susan, were convicted last year on a string of fraud and conspiracy
charges stemming from some of their other business deals.

Floyd, 36, said he used the car  a present from McDougal's mother, whom he
described as "like a another mother to me''  to make deliveries for Madison.

After it developed transmission problems, he took it to Johnny's Transmission in
Little Rock and ended up leaving it there for good after a dispute about the cost to
repair it. Workers at the shop opened the trunk after a tornado damaged the vehicle
last spring.

How You Can Put The Brakes On
`Road Rage'

An epidemic of "road rage" is sweeping America -- as
enraged road warriors are making our streets deadly.
But you can stay out of harm's way by following a few
simple tips from an expert.

Shockingly, violent traffic incidents have increased 51 percent
since 1990, the American Automobile Association says.

And a full two-thirds of the 41,907 traffic deaths in the United
States in 1996 were tied to aggressive driving, according to
the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

"Aggressive driving isn't unusual anymore," said Leon James,
a traffic psychology professor at the University of Hawaii
who's known as "Dr. Driving."

"We've become more territorial. We feel that if people cross
certain lines, they've invaded our territory -- and it's a natural
instinct to protect our territory."

You can put the brakes on road rage by following these tips
from Dr. Driving.

* If you're the target of another person's aggressive driving,
don't respond in kind.

"It takes two to make a fight," Dr. Driving pointed out.
"Swallow your pride."

* Try to get out of the other driver's way.

* Don't establish eye contact with the aggressive driver.

"If you give another driver a mean look or an insulting gesture,
you're pouring explosive fuel on a burning engine," said Dr.
Driving. "That driver is already mad. A nasty look or gesture
would most likely make the situation worse."

* If you made a driving mistake that angered the other driver,
apologize.

If a road rage incident makes you lose control and become
angry, you can calm down by following these tips:

* Take deep breaths and count to 10.

* Make funny animal sounds to yourself. It's a way to regain
control.

"I like to roar like a bear," Dr. Driving said. "Others prefer to
meow like a cat or moo like a cow. After about 10 seconds of
this, the anger is completely gone."

* Try not to take the other person's behavior personally. For
example, imagine that he lost his temper because he had a
headache.

* Sing a favorite song to yourself -- or give yourself pep talks.
Dr. Driving concluded: "Conquer your road rage and you'll be
on the way to coolheaded, hassle-free driving."

-- S.D. HUBBARD

Ted -- Now is the time to do some serious research on the 'in ground' assets of these companies. I can't predict how low the prices of these stocks will be driven ( like NEM or NGC ) , but at some point book value must count. For now, panic rules by a few. Remember that stock prices are set at the margin. You don't need a lot of sellers, just fewer buyers than sellers. The price drops and causes weaker holders to sell. Mutual Funds are a problem here. They want to minimize the losses that they are showing.

NJ -- I think it was FDR who said, "In politics, NOTHING happens by accident." I guess it takes one to know one?

To: Tolerant1@evening, good

Well, it's not as good as it was, and not as bad as it going
to be...
At the beginning ( circa 1970 ) SDR1=USD1

At the end of the beginning SDR1=USD 1.381

sigh

MO IN TO: The globex at the moment does not agree with you -
http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

To: Tolerant1@evening, good

Well, it's not as good as it was, and not as bad as it going
to be...
At the beginning ( circa 1970 ) SDR1=USD1

At the end of the beginning SDR1=USD 1.381

sigh

Hmmm, February is the timeframe that some historians cite for the "after Presidential election" rally phenomenom. Steven Kaplan believes this is a lesser timing indicator, according to his webpage http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/4915/index.html

Have you considered what the vendor made on those 50 cups a java, and how much he'll make on the next percolator,etc,etc,etc,etc,..... That oz a gold might go up in value but then again....

Royal Oak Mine... I don't know if your're referring to the same company but there's a Royal Oak mining co in Canada that has a lot of high cost mines there closing down. ALso, I'd check out that 79 dollar figure per oz. Seems too low.

Shek: I have plenty of physical. I am very pleased with e-gold and Mr. E-gold. Honest, straight forward individual. The couple of times I have requested redemptions, bingo, a key stroke and I have it in my hands.

I think people that go and get into the e-gold system will eventually take bigger and bigger positions with this money system. I am very comfortable with e-gold.

Try it, take a couple of ounces worth of figment standard paper and feed it into the system. I have quite a bit more in the system and sleep happy as a clam in deep mud.

Thats why I mentioned the other night I have everything ready for immediate wire transfer out of banks and into physical possesion and e-gold, or just into e-gold. I have my choice of gold, platinum, silver or palladium.

I feel much better that my money system with e-gold is based 100 percent on my metal and nobody can touch it but me.

I

XAU to hold above 75 trendline on its way up.
Good night all.

Ted, thanks for your opinion. Now if you're right, will deflation be good or bad for Gold?

This Saddam thing is just beyond me. Since when does the U.N. have U-2 spy planes? Oh, I get it. We ( the U.S. ) GAVE some to them. So it's now a, 'U.N.' plane, with U.S. technology... What next? Maybe some SR-71s? How about some KH-11 spy satellites? Oh, they already have access to those. Hmmmm.

Is it just me or has anyone else had problems getting timely delivery of Bullion coins from Blanchard? It took them over 6 weeks the last time I ordered. It makes me nervous. Any recommendations?

Am beginning to wonder when or IF book value will count??? And excuse me,NEM is @ 30 15/16---is getting tempting AND YA EVEN GET A 1.56% dividend while ya wait...and perhaps wait some more....

Bugle: call 1-800-593-2585 ask for Russ Savage. Jefferson Coin and Bullion - order what you want pay for it and get it pronto. No muss, no fuss.

( ( ( ( EVENTUALLY ) ) ) ) good!

With the POG under 310 and not rallying....maybe that's a good predictor that the market is not going in the tank after all. Rather than seeing the market as the leading indicator, maybe the POG is the leading indicator of where the smart money is going or will go when the market is really going into a bear.. Any comments?

What the F*** does your ROAD RAGE post have to do with investments you idiot! Bet you're the kind who cuts people off in traffic too aren't ya! Where's my gun at.

Remember the dippie credo, buy when the market falls 10.00000%. Not 9.999%. Not 10.00001%. It must be 10.0000000% period. :- ) )

Good night all, let's see how much blood will be let in the gold market tomorrow. And look at that CRB/XAU chart.

Ted -- You want a dividend? Look at Western Deep Level Mines ( WDEPY ) .

SDRer: It will be interesting to watch as the dollar slides and see how it fairs. Something still smells rotten to me. Not the SDR, but the whole enchilada.

Too much is happening and I think when the USA starts to really clank, well, I just do not think anyone or group or, you name it, when this baby blows run and duck for cover.

Thanks Tolerant1 for the tip on Bullion dealer. What kind of premium do they charge?

Ted -- After four rainy weekends, we have an improved weather forecast... A snowy weekend! December nat gas anyone?

CAN A WORLDWIDE 'GOLD CARTEL' JUST NOW BE BEGINING TO FORM AS WE SPEAK ? SIGN ME UP TOO I GOT A COUPLE OF MAPLES AND KRUGS...HEY, WHY DIDN'T THEY ( ? ) THINK OF THAT BEFORE THE PLUNGE ...WONDER WHERE THEY WOULD HOLD THEIR MEETINGS ???

Last thought for the evening, well, another attempt at least. Look at some of the technology plays in mining stocks. ALTIF is going up during this whole mess. IPMCF could shock the planet with a positive report from Beher.

Silver is a wildcard. Easily the most volatile of the metals. If it gets squeezed and it does not take much to to that, the price will make goldbugs blush. You can bet that all these investors looking to make a buck to feed their instant gratification need fix will jump in with both feet.

Some other stocks you should take a peek at. Tan Range TNX, Oro Peru OROP.

Well, it's off to Tequilaville, peace to all. Except that student murdering weasel in China.

Hang Sang +35, Tokyo closing ground

Now you are talkin ( nat. gas is IT ) ...and will continue to grow in importance in the future...

Ted -- 7.24% Yield....

If I bought nat gas, I'd single handedly sink the market. :- ) )

Good night...................

tolerant1,
I own Oroperu, and it is my believe that its price will increase significantly in 98.

A beautiful sight on a tranquil ocean----calm befoe the storm as forcast is wind gusts up to 60 MPH tomorrow....Panda: P.S. Had some snow flurries today---why wait till the weekend!....Good night all$$$$$$$

Here is the Mcdougall ( sp? ) interview about Clinton perjury. Very damning! http://www.washtimes.com/news/news1.html

Donald: Re - your 18:13 post?
I did say one time that you were too much gloom and doom!
I think that was the day you posted that Vedic astrology text, and blew me and Colleen away! I thought you had been replaced by someone ( thing ) else!
Was relieved that it was really not you ( Grin thingy! )

If you check, during the 87 crash the gold stocks crashed with the market. Gold stocks are not suited for the crash comming I believe.
Any comments?

I find myself in need of adult instruction. ( Ted and Front need not apply ) ...... I am puzzled by a comment Another posted earlier today. That is: "Oil must advance in dollar terms in order to save the system" ( I put it in quotes but it's a paraphrase ) .......... I don't understand why the above must occur.

I did understand his gold for oil thesis but the above escapes me. What am I overlooking.

If doomsday occurs and paper money becomes worthless, what benchmark is there for valuing gold? I have heard that an ounce has historically equalled a good mans business suit but is there a basket of goods which equals an ounce of fine?

"Fortunes are made by buying low and selling too soon." --Baron Rothchild

Which Baron I really don't know; but does it matter? Glenn, Baby, Where are you? Goodnight All.

I wonder if low gold stock prices precede a general downturn in the market especially if gold prices are low making mining unprofitable for many companies and reducing the profits of even the best low cost producers. The reason gold stocks are low now is because of the lo POG and the projection by producers that the price will remain low for some time contrary to what many people believe who post here on Kitco. Most companies would have negative cash flow if it wasn't for hedging. Even with hedging high cost producers are in big trouble.

To: Tolerant1
You can find it listed at this url

http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/today.html

HK up 210
Tokyo up 140. What a swing. Dow up 50 Thursday?

or 150?

Ted: the Postmen must have heard your complaints because the strike is off atleast until Friday. Cold here and we are burning lots of natural gas -- shares in Trans Canada Pipelines look good on a cold night.