hi I like you. yes i see things that all dont but why is that? I want gold to make money to but things and then go get more help for some thing that stops me.hi i liKe gOld it pretty my name quigly not quigiE...hi!

You have been sniffing too much nerve gas///

New people you must understand that people here are not totally normal. They hate money and this is proven by their consistent touting of gold and the related investments. Most of them will not come out of the closet and admit that they have a pathological hatred of money. Most individuals with a problem stay in denial for a long time. We are monitoring this sight in hopes of developing a program to help these obviously intelligent and thoughful people. Imagine what they could do if their energies were directed in a proper direction. However, addiction to precious metals is just like any addiction such as drugs or alcohol and until the person admits they have a problem there is little that can be done. Nevertheless we want to warn others lest they become gold addicted and contract the related abnormality of money hatred. Hopefully people in this class will gain job protection as a persecuted minority under the Civil Rights Laws as God knows they need it. Call 1-800-ALA-GOLD and protect the young naive investor! ALL information provided to ALAGOLD will remain confidential. Inquire with respect to our program for Spouses, children and others who suffer peripherally from this disease. One of the early symptoms of the disease is infectious Financial market crashitis. Protect yourself and your family and call our toll-free number today.

I'd like to eat you all up after i chop you into little pieces that is.

Last post: I agree, Bob Brinker maybe right for the moment but his day
will come just like Joe Granville. Bob is so Obnoxiious to the rookies
I have to turn him off.

You very bad man. dont lie u. like gold! gold good for yu.go home bad man

sssorry bout name. that yur nameis Quigly. Nurce ratchit say nasty
thing bout us. I dink better stick togetter. She might give us EST.
Last time brain fried and I smsmsmelll bacon in da room. She dryonce
give me thalium but i vomit den i take lithium ok but wish i take
gold.

Last post: Bob Brinker is Obnoxious. His day will come just as did
Joe Granville's.

LLLLLooks lllllike toughguy kkkkkant sseee da ftuturre. He walkin
da dark cant read dem nonono more.

I like you. you like me. we same people. they give me drugs two but am still not here then but ok is getting better. thank yu for talking past me.I like you. Some nice peoples here and no doctors.I dont lik doctors but nurses another story. do you like gold-I like you. my brain is kind of not good but am better than tuesday. where are we bounce/ dont let them take me away to bad place again .

Let me guess,Harvard? MIT? Wharton business school?

Quigly yuyu not reerelated to guido no? Llllet us reretarts pppparty
on. New murse like I like she pat me on the head so I licked herrr lik a dog I like dog and ccat.

Quigly: I think you and your alter ego had better tell Hepcat to increase his meds -- You're coming apart.

Ted: Morning. I guess the CFL season didn't end exactly as you had hoped. I'm going to be ready to watch the NY opening on gold Monday. Can't wait to see if the drop continues without a letup. An article in the Canadian Financial Post Saturday cited a report that stated the absolute bottom for gold was 147. This could get to be a rival for the Super Bore by early in the new year.

Hi friend.I like you.i lick her two! party is fun with peoples like us cause we nice peoples who then sometimes do crazy stuff . am ok now-my drugs work my brain out to space but i type and better then than try to think yes or no as they run to the store.I like pussy kats are you 2 there.hi my name is quigly what is your name?

I like you man. i think im crazy are yu? what is hepcat.Pussy? kitco fun for me and you. are we posted yet. brain not working good but am still stupid.

Japan 16216.18 +1133.66 +7.52%
Hong Kong 10475.9 +518.57 +5.21%
Taiwan 7690.54 +198.28 +2.65%
South Korea 495.64 -23.73 -4.57%
Thailand 443.60 -13.27 -2.90%
Malaysia 668.50 -8.97 -1.32%

Oz SPI futures rose 33 pts then fell off 49pt
Closing at the low, at a discount to the physical.

Volatility fluxing at extremes.
Strong bull rally followed by a sharp reversal and sell-off?

Hi JTF--I just had a thought. Maybe we could work out an arrangement with some of the more mischevous Kitcoites ( yup, they are family ) , wherein they have the hours of 00:00 to 02:00 to themselves in return for letting the more studious posters have 02:00 to 23:59. Just my guess here--I think Hepcat feels we are at some very important event. I believe that he is not amongst the disrupters this a.m. He sounded very serious in some of his last few posts.

Nick ( @Aussie ) : Left e-mail for you. That Magicelf Kondratiev wave site was great!

Quigly head hurt lesss tototo. Tththerapy is good lik gold butbut
udder patints ddont lilike therapee. Me dink it fun. got to gogo
colli-bag full nurse rippin at my pppants. Give me gold tttexta
i pplay now lllike Andre Cerrano. Draw pretty piture.
Prof yeh we from Princeton, gogo like join in QQQuigly and mine
reresearch projectie.

Auric: That's fine with me -- I think alot of people are letting off steam -- alot of heavy stuff being bantered back and forth on this site.
What do the consistenly sane/peaceful Kitcoites from down under think about that?
Nick ( @Aussie ) ?, Nick ( @Canberra ) ? Aurator?

i lik you. we team no can beat.professer like us he think we smart peoples yes we are. i can right two and spell two.but not good as before accident and surgery.lobottomly didnt do good things but i learn from this /bounce dont let them get me. help me/ we start comapany and mak lot of dimes and nicles. gold two. I go sleep now.i take pills.i lik you. we like gold.

Does anyone have a Reuter's feed that is working tonight ( especially asian news ) ? If so can I get the url. Tahnks in advance.

I hhave fffriend he QUANTUM MECHANIC and he post back in june jully
what hehe see inada fffuture dddooo uuuuknw dddate cause i wantta
ttake it hhhome show mum. Dontt have copy cant ssearch. brain hurt
when ii gogo back. yeh we make heaps of doe. i can open bank
account and the nurse said they let me write cheque with texta.

Auric JTF you got my vote ( What, me sane? ) ;- )

gotta accomodate many voices huh?


That is the real glory@kitco.

stock-markets need more prozac, they're kinds looking down at their feet and getting vertigo - like I felt as a child at Niagra Falls.

Quigly and B.B.B.Bounce are the KITCO THINK-TANK.

Good night again everyone -- even the multiple personalities!

test

Pacific weather
http://www.ece.jcu.edu.au/JCUMetSat/globehlast.gif

Nikkei to suffer more losses
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859116?=mar&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=1884

Greenback rises to six-month record over yen
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859113?=mar&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=997

London : Rate rise fears resurface
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859103?=mar&template=DNoCommas.htx&maxfieldsize=926

Tokyo : Pension funds expected to move in after sell-off
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859112?=mar&template=DNoCommas.htx&maxfieldsize=1304

Taipei :Correction seen as players adopt cautious approach
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859111?=mar&template=DNoCommas.htx&maxfieldsize=1816

Evil cabal plot theory not backed by evidence
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859057?=mar&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=3989

Price of crude edges up amid Gulf tensions
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid=19971117004859064?=mar&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=3038

What will replace gold as a tool for providing confidence in paper after the "demonetarization" of gold has been effected?

I think the multiple personalities are night shift government workers. I'm sure you all know that gov workers now outnumber workers in manufacturing ( reason enough to sell stocks ) . Punching idiocy into the keyboard may be their high-tech form of looking busy ( replaced paper shuffling ) .

Puetz and everyone...it seems that we ( bears ) are being lined up to the slaughter house...check this chart out http://www.oexmaster.com/secure/gif/sp100in.gif

I guess the crash will come someday but, now I have to decide how to minimize my put losses.......

Whats it say? Required password. Can you summarize please. Is it REAL bad??

Dave dont be so harsh. If you cant laugh at yourself then this game
probably wont suit you. Like being in a plane, everything is out
of your control. Quigs and Bounce you did well today. You
both are making a great recovery. As of tomorrow you are allowed
1 day visit to the city per week.

Japanese bank to close
Chirac backs Mahathir on forex rules
US stresses central role of IMF
Malaysia's October inflation up 2.7%
S'pore: Templeton launches Thai fund
IMF to oppose independent Asian fund
http://203.120.201.25/cgi-dos/apac.exe

Yes that would be Guns, Lawyers and the good ol US of A.

Am I missing something? This is a positive?? How many other banks, real estate, insurance, brokerages etc. will there be? How much skullduggery will be uncovered, eh? Like hidden losses, fraudulent books, Yakuza pay offs, etc.? Prepare to be shocked.

Tokyo crashed up. Watch how Europe will follow now. Bingggggg.

Triple Ought by James Wesley, Rawles
( http://www.teleport.com/~ammon/gn/cover.htm ) has been expanded and is now available in print! Titled TEOTWAWKI ( "The End of the World as We Know It." ) The novel has been expanded to 33 chapters, revised, reorganized, updated, and retitled. TEOTWAWKI is now available in soft cover from Clearwater Press. See http://www.teleport.com/~ammon/gn/teopromo.htm for more details.

Triple Ought by James Wesley, Rawles has been expanded and is now available in print! Titled TEOTWAWKI ( "The End of the World as We Know It." ) The novel has been expanded to 33 chapters, revised, reorganized, updated, and retitled. TEOTWAWKI is now available in soft cover from Clearwater Press. See http://www.teleport.com/~ammon/gn/teopromo.htm for more details. To read about "Triple Ought" see ( http://www.teleport.com/~ammon/gn/cover.htm )

Gold up 1.05, Silver up .08

Try gold up 50

away...to await auratorspk...dum, dee, dum...


Donald....I have been monitoring and an infrequent poster to this
site for two years. It seems that every other post is yours, I am just
wondering how you do it. Do you have two computers going? I
find it is very hard for me to post once or twice a night. I am in no
way criticizing you, because I do enjoy your posts. Just wondering.

More upward Crashing...Less downward spiking...more woe is Bug...of gold...tomorrow...is tonight...in Zealator...aWaY...to catch the...





zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's



where is he.......knox myself out.......oh........my......... ;- )

Up a buck-twenty...

away...to dream of gold at 500...right george??
omegaDude

Gold now up .05 ( Getting my quotes from Kitco )

Check this out. This administration is drowning in scandal and corruption. http://www.drudgereport.com

More precisely, check this out. http://www.drudgereport.com/3.htm

To Another - Why are the people you talk about ignoring platinum?

U.S. Bonds Fall in Asia on Concern About Japanese Bank Plan

U.S. bonds fell in Asia, as a Japanese government shutdown of a debt-ridden bank increased
concern that the nation's postal savings system may sell Treasury bonds to buy preferred shares of
banks. The Japanese government said Hokkaido Takushoku Bank Ltd., one of Japan's 10 city
banks, will be shut down. That followed a comment by an official of Japan's governing Liberal
Democratic Party that the party is weighing a proposal to use postal savings funds to strengthen
banks. The benchmark 30-year Treasury bond fell 8/32 in Asia, or $2.50 cents per $1,000 bond,
to 99 30/32. Its yield rose about 2 basis point from New York, to 6.13 percent. The two- year
note last yielded 5.70 percent.

Dollar Recovers Against Yen on Concern About Japan's Economy

The dollar recovered against the yen, as investors weighed the importance of yen-supporting
comments by Japanese officials against the outlook for the Japanese economy. News of the largest
bank failure in Japan's history, and a slide by the South Korean won to a record low against the
dollar, prompted fears that exports from Japan, Korea's main competitor, will become less
competitive. The dollar roller- coasted against the yen. It rose to 126.60 yen after Japan said the
Hokkaido Takushoku Bank will be shut down. The dollar then plunged more than 2 yen after U.S.
and Japanese officials voiced concern about the yen's ``excessive'' decline.

Hi Bernie: I have two computers but the second is just for backup and rarely turned on. I just have my search sites memorized and some key searchwords that get the kinds of posts I am looking for. Words like turmoil, chaos, deflation, losses, devaluation, banks, etc. Sorry if I tend to be a motormouth. Most of the stuff I post relates to gold or things that I suspect can cause long term gold price changes.

Good Morning Donald, there is much talk ( specualtion? ) of Japan selling US securities on some SI threads tonight. I cannot find a post that spells out anything substantial but that is the perception. BTW, good to see someone else in US up early, but I must be off to my TDC 3000 soon.
This is the SI thread where most of discussion is:
http://talk.techstocks.com/~wsapi/investor/Subject-10565

Just blowing my own horn here for a bit....When posting a while back that several NIPONESE banks would be failing and the world of financial domino's would begin to fall I was met with the e-equivalent of blank look from most of the posters at this site. Does anyone one have a comment speaking to the ripple effect which will be felt when several other major financial institutions " come clean" and admit that they are insolvent?

As I posted weeks ago the Japanese will have no other choice but to repatriate funds to help prop up a failing banking system...It is a question of nationalism and saving face on a nationwide scale...The keritsu's have already been given their marching orders by the powers that be in Japan.

Keep up the good work...It saves me a bundle of time on researching articles I may have missed with my search engines.

Keep posting, sir. Your sites are a veritable fountain of information. This Kitco citizen appreciates the work.

Hi Roebear, PI: I have been looking for Nikkei volume for a clue but nothing yet. Korea seems hurt by this move and I think that the U.S. yield curve is moving close to inverted by the slide in 2 year US notes.

Dear Sir,

Do you think you could find the archive of the Japanese Minister's comment that they will sell US BONDS AND BUY GOLD IF THE US does not " play ball" the way the Jap's would like ( i.e. one way fair trade '/ uneven playing field / open us markets - closed japanese )

test

Inverted yield curve should be any time now....over...

If the short end of the US yield curve rises in yield, won't that play havoc with the budget? Isn't there a lot of short term Government debt due for refinancing?

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971116/business/stories/stocks_29.html

The super bear gold case from economist Burt Ely. Bottom line -- gold is losing its value as a monetary asset and is just another commodity. Enormous supply overhang will push price down to $250.



FOOL'S GOLD ( THOSE WHO OWN GOLD ARE FOOLS )

The Random House version of Webster's dictionary defines "fool's gold" as "iron or copper pyrites, sometimes mistaken for
gold." Ely's definition of fool's gold: "Someone who owns gold as an investment." The accompanying Figure 3 shows
why. This figure shows four charts that plot, from different starting points, the actual price of an ounce of gold relative to the
compounded value of the same amount of money reinvested annually in 1-year Treasury bills. For the years up to 1996, the
data points are annual averages; for 1997, the data points are averages for the third quarter. Treasury bills, of course, pay
interest, while gold does not; in fact, gold has a continuing negative cash yield because it costs money to store and insure one's
gold hoard.

Briefly, these charts show that gold, that great store of value and protector against inflation, actually has been a terrible
"investment" and store of value for two decades. For reasons discussed below, that circumstance will continue for many,
many years to come. Only if someone bought gold in 1977 or before, and held it to the present, has gold been a better
"investment" than 1-year Treasury bills, and only if one incurred no insurance or storage charges for that gold "investment."
However, since 1977, gold has performed less well than 1-year Treasury bills, and sometimes much less well, depending on
which year one "invested" in gold. Gold purchased between 1972, when the United States abandoned the last pretenses of
backing the dollar with gold, and 1977 still appears to be a good investment, but only because the price of gold moved slowly
during the 1970s towards what has turned out to be a price which most of the time falls in the range of $300-$400 per ounce.
Of course, anyone who bought gold in 1981 or 1982 at $500 or $600 per ounce fared far worse when gold prices plunged as
inflation declined. Even those who bought gold when it was relatively cheap, such as in 1985 and 1992, have fared badly if
they still own that gold.

As bad as gold-as-an-investment looks in Figure 3, the future will look even worse, for a long-standing truth about gold is
finally becoming evident in the marketplace -- gold, when viewed as just another commodity ( as it should be ) , suffers from a
horrendous inventory overhang that will take literally decades to work off. I estimate that half and perhaps as much as
two-thirds of the world's supply of 130,000 to 135,000 tons of gold is owned by central banks and individuals who view their
gold holdings as an "investment" or a protection against inflation. The privately owned gold is in the form of gold bars, coins,
and clunky jewelry of little artistic value; such jewelry represents a primitive way to store and display one's wealth.

Many central banks have decided that they should sell their gold bars before prices drop even further. Just a week ago, the
Swiss government, of all people, endorsed the Swiss central bank's plan to sell almost one-third of its gold. If Swiss bankers
no longer believe in gold as a sound store of value, why should anyone else? Hence, we can expect to see more gold coming
on the market just as demand for gold drops in Asia due to its economic problems. Consequently, the price of gold could fall
below mining costs for all but the most efficient gold mines. While some say that gold prices cannot drop that far, in fact,
commodity prices often drop below production costs until excess inventories are worked off. I will not be surprised to see gold
drop from its present level of $310 an ounce to below $250, which of course will increase the sell-off of gold now held as an
"investment." By the way, I wonder how much gold that well-known gold bug, Al Greenspan, owns and how much he has
gained or lost on that "investment." As an aside, the U.S. taxpayer has lost big time on her government'000 tons of gold is
owned by central banks and individuals who view their gold holdings as an "investment" or a protection against inflation. The
privately owned gold is in the form of gold bars, coins, and clunky jewelry of little artistic value; such jewelry represents a
primitive way to store and display one's wealth.

Many central banks have decided that they should sell their gold bars before prices drop even further. Just a week ago, the
Swiss government, of all people, endorsed the Swiss central bank's plan to sell almost one-third of its gold. If Swiss bankers
no longer believe in gold as a sound store of value, why should anyone else? Hence, we can expect to see more gold coming
on the market just as demand for gold drops in Asia due to its economic problems. Consequently, the price of gold could fall
below mining costs for all but the most efficient gold mines. While some say that gold prices cannot drop that far, in fact,
commodity prices often drop below production costs until excess inventories are worked off. I will not be surprised to see gold
drop from its present level of $310 an ounce to below $250, which of course will increase the sell-off of gold now held as an
"investment." By the way, I wonder how much gold that well-known gold bug, Al Greenspan, owns and how much he has
gained or lost on that "investment." As an aside, the U.S. taxpayer has lost big time on her government's "investment" in
8,140 tons of gold. Since gold prices peaked early last year, that "investment" has lost approximately $28 billion in market
value. One final comment on gold: Future declines in the price of gold should not be seen as a harbinger of a broader asset
deflation, for gold will continue to enjoy its own little bear market regardless of what happens elsewhere in the world.

Korea and all of ASIA is very sick financially...as are many other major banks worldwide... unfortunately they are unwilling to take the medicine needed to get well... they have a feeling that they can have the best of both worlds..... rigged markets....favoriism....oligopolies....monoploies...and all the benefits of free markets with out the dues...I tell you ...it is going to get real ugly real fast.... My predictions is for widespread homelessness in Tokyo and other major ASian city that have never experienced such social earthquakes before.

http://biz.yahoo.com/upi/97/11/10/financial_news/usauction_1.html

For US yield curve-- http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/C13.html International yield curves-- http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/iyc.html

Ouch Ouch Ouch Ouch Ouch.

Sorry. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Completely in valid in formation in your post...can you beleave those statements are the exception rather than the rule in the General Media...one thing I do persnally agree with is that I have not been bullish on gold since "74-78" time frame until now!!! The only equities I will be buying for a while will be gold mining companies for some of the best prices/ratios Ihave seen in years. Certainly you could loss it all if the mining companies go belly up but ....I feel much better bargain hunting now than if I had purchased earlier....

The United States is a big spender internationally.

For years, Americans have bought more French cheese, Venezuelan oil, and other foreign goods
than they've been selling in the way of corn, machines, and other exports. To pay foreigners for
this trade deficit, the US has been borrowing money.

As a result, the world's richest nation has become the world's biggest debtor nation.

And new statistics show that what economists term its "international investment position" slipped
another $194 billion into the red last year to reach a negative $831 billion in total. That rapid
growth rate puts US financial markets in a somewhat delicate position.

Like the $4 trillion in domestic federal debt held by the public, the international debt is probably of
no immediate threat to the economy. Nonetheless, it is something economists keep an eye on
because of its influence on interest rates and perhaps even the stock market.

"America has become increasingly reliant on the good graces of Asian investors to keep interest
rates low," writes Stephen Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter in New York.
The inflow underpins "the valuation of a rather frothy US stock market."

"The amount of foreign monies supporting the US debt market is astonishing," says Michael
Cosgrove, editor of the Econoclast Advisory Service in Dallas.

What if it slacks off? he asks.

In June, the mere threat of this sent stock and bond prices plunging. Japanese Prime Minister
Ryutaro Hashimoto was interpreted - inaccurately, according to Japanese officials - as saying that
Tokyo might pull some of its money out of US capital markets.

The inflow of foreign money has helped keep interest rates down, making up for a low national
savings rate. If it drops off, interest rates could rise, hitting those buying a house or car with
borrowed money.

And rising rates could send stock market prices plunging.

Last year, foreigners pumped in an amount equal to more than half of the all business, household,
and government credit needs - from car loans to municipal bonds to business borrowing.

Foreign money has helped finance the business investment boom in the US. This money hikes
productivity, provides jobs.

On one hand, the inflow reflects the attractiveness of the US for foreign investors.

"The United States is an island of prosperity in the world," says Scott Pardee, a senior adviser to
Yamaichi International ( America ) , a Japanese-owned investment bank in New York.

On the other hand, it makes US financial markets vulnerable to a sudden outflow of foreign funds.

"Should some event occur, these fund inflows could be quickly reversed," Mr. Cosgrove says.
That's particularly true for more than $1 trillion of Treasury securities bought by foreigners.

Such an event - say an oil crisis or a Gulf War-type action - would depress bond prices, force up
interest rates, and clobber stock prices, he warns.

The first impact of the recent currency crisis in Asia has been a flow of funds into
dollar-denominated assets as a haven. But Mr. Roach worries this inflow might dry up as these
countries shore up troubled financial institutions.

Japan, Singapore, China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong have accounted for fully 40 percent of the
phenomenal growth in total foreign holdings of US Treasury securities since the end of 1994, he
estimates.

Mr. Pardee, however, maintains that as long as the US maintains "reasonable" fiscal and monetary
policies, foreigners will be glad to keep money in the US. Fiscal policy involves levels of
government taxes and spending.

The US international balance sheet is the national equivalent of an individual's balance of assets ( say
a house, bank balance, and mutual fund investment ) and debts ( perhaps a mortgage and credit-card
balance ) .

The US, including its government, corporations, and individuals, own $4.3 trillion in assets abroad,
while its liabilities total $5.1 trillion in foreign-owned factories, stocks, bonds ( more than $1 trillion
in Treasuries ) , and the like within America.

On both sides of the balance sheet is a mix of debts and assets. Thus government experts avoid the
popular but inexact "debtor nation" phrase.

But as long as the US racks up a substantial deficit in its balance of trade, it is likely to keep moving
into the red in its balance of assets and liabilities. That's because the surplus dollars piled up by
foreigners need to be invested directly or indirectly in US assets.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/hongkong_gold_pictur_1.html

For speaking words of hope. You know, the "Gold is Dead" school reminds me of the "God is Dead" school of theology of the several decades ago. Contrary to the expectations of that school, religion ( whether or not God was ever dead is a subject we will not broach, the issue being then perhaps as now not so much His ontological reality as the perception of His relevance to modern life ) is prospering as never before.

Now I do not want to confuse God with Gold, nor do I wish to predict that Gold will necessarily do as well over the next 30 years as God has over the past 30. My point is, being left for dead by the pundits is not the end, and the nattering nabobs of negativism often do not have the last word.

W A L K E R M A R K E T L E T T E R
11 / 16 / 97
Mid Month Update

http://www.lowrisk.com
...............................................

-- FROM THE EDITOR --

Our circulation has now passed the 9,000 mark. The funny thing
about the publishing business is that it makes you greedy. A
year ago we were publishing to 250 subscribers, now we are at
9k. But that kind of growth just makes us hungry for more - we
are hoping for 10k by the new year ( actually we want 12k, but
don't want to be TOO greedy! ) . You can help us...if you find
this newsletter to be of value please forward it to your friends
and associates! Subscription instructions are included at the
bottom of the newsletter.

-- MODEL UPDATE --


Model status = FLAT, 100% in money markets
The model has held this position since 10/31/97.
CONSERVATIVE PORTFOLIO = 100% in Vanguard Money Markets.
AGGRESSIVE PORTFOLIO = 100% in Rydex Money Markets.

-- COMMENTARY --

In the last two weeks the market has continued its extreme
volatility. The DJIA's average daily range in the last month has
been 184 points, or 2.4% of its value. That is 2.4 times greater
than the average range since 1992, which is 1.0%. The last
several years have been a period of low volatility in the stock
market, but that kind of increase in volatility is still
noteworthy. It shows that the rules are changing for this stock
market. In general, high volatility is not good for stocks.

After our last issue on 11/1, the market rallied strongly for a
few days and then spent the next week giving all that ground
back. Last Thursday we had a "double bottom" on the charts and
the market started to rally back. The question now is whether
that double bottom was the much anticipated "retest" of the late
October drop. This question should become much clearer in the
next few days. Right now the charts are still pointing down. The
market internals have been pretty weak also. The rally back from
the October lows has been very selective and has left many
stocks behind. That isn't a good sign for the market.

On a more positive note, interest rates have continued to fall.
The yield on the 30 year treasury bond fell from 6.14% to 6.08%
in the last two weeks alone. That is the lowest rate for the 30
year T-bond since February, 1996. Low interest rates are
generally good for stocks. However, we continue to watch the
spread between short term rates and long term rates. This spread
has continued to narrow over the last couple of weeks, and could
become a trouble spot.

The next couple of weeks should be telling for the stock market.
There are a lot of negatives and this market remains very
dangerous. But that double bottom can often be the base for
powerful rallies. Our timing model continues to stay on the
sidelines. At this point it looks like there is about an equal
chance that the next signal could be a buy or a signal to go
short. As always, we will let you know immediately if there is
any change in the model's position.

November 17, 1997
FOCUS-Tokyo stocks soar, lead some markets higher

SINGAPORE ( Reuters ) - Tokyo stocks roared back into the black Monday, ending nearly eight percent higher and bringing some Asian share markets along for the ride.

In Australia, the flotation of telecommunictions carrier Telstra Corp -- the country's largest ever -- buoyed that market, but the gains were limited because of a selloff in gold shares.

Tokyo's stunning about-face came after sharp losses on Friday, when concern over the financial system and disappointment over the government's latest economic measures cast a pall over the region.

Monday's rally reflected a perception among investors that authorities were taking active steps to help the ailing financial sector following news that Hokkaido Takushoku Bank Ltd's business will be taken over by another regional bank.

"The bounce was rapid, especially since it came after the Nikkei's drop of about 2,000 points ( over the past few weeks ) ," said Akira Yaku, SBC Warburg Securities' director of equities trading.

"But considering the fact that there are other financial institutions out there which still have problems, the rebound may not last long," he added.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/MARKETS-ASIA.html

Why is it that

gold wealth is "hoarded"

but

paper wealth is "accumulated"??

nightrider-----

the nattering nabobs ( excellent ) are only spokes
in the wheel of life. to think they can permanently
steal the wheel, and control it from the inside-out,
is arrogance, and is the forte of the task-masters.

cherokee!; ) gold-is-fixing-to-kick-------actions and reactions..

November 17, 1997
Japan seen reversing fiscal course to save economy

TOKYO, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - As pressure on Japan mounts from the United States and from within, Tokyo may be forced to reverse fiscal gears and resort to a tax cut to shore up its flagging economy, government sources said on Monday.

Calls within Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto's Liberal Democratic Party ( LDP ) for extra fiscal spending are growing louder as Tokyo share prices remain in the doldrums, ruling party officials said.

Although the Tokyo stock market's key Nikkei average soared 1,200 points or 7.96 percent on Monday to 16,283.32, brokers dismissed this as a temporary rebound and said shares still had a long way to go to restore losses from their recent tailspin.

The United States, meanwhile, has stepped up its rhetoric urging Japan to expand domestic demand by loosening its fiscal grip.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/JAPAN-ECONOMY.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/markets_precious_1.html Donald
I think you are the best on the net. Keep it up. Thankyou, you a
mine working at full capacity while others around close.

10-4
------------- peaceful warrior----------------------

PrivateInvestor.... I think you have it backwards. The nattering nabboos of negativism are the gold bugs. In order for gold to rally, it will take some kind financial system crisis/recession/depression. The New Economy folks who argue that gold has no future are boundless sources of optimism.

Also, just an aside. The Japanese and other Asians have know great homelessness. When the US airforce fire bombed Tokyo during WWII the result was widespread homelessness.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/news/stories/malaysia_4.html

The Nikkei is up 8%. Globex futures shows a strong open for stocks this morning. So far, the flow of new cash into mutual funds is holding up the market. If the DOW were to go up 8%, we'd see between 500 and 600 points gain. Can anyone make a realistic case for gold, in any form, having this kind of potential in the near term?

November 17, 1997
Adds confirmation meeting has begun )

BEIJING ( Reuters ) - Top-level Chinese bankers and economic officials met Monday to discuss financial reforms in a gathering prompted by the markets crisis in Asia.

A central bank spokesman said the three-day conference organized by the State Council, or cabinet, got underway in a Beijing hotel. "It has started," the People's Bank of China spokesman said, without giving any details of the closed-door gathering.

State media Monday made no direct reference to the meeting, but officials have said privately that it would focus on ways to strengthen controls over a banking system that is technically bankrupt.It would also discuss restructuring the central bank along the lines of the U.S. Federal Reserve, concentrating power at a regional level and chopping out the bottom layer of the bureaucracy.

Low level central bank functionaries often thwart central policy on lending because they are susceptible to pressure for loans from local enterprises.

State media were filled with commentary Monday urging reform of a banking system staggering under bad debt.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/CHINA-FINANCE.html

Donald... like your 6:04 post... a couple of points. First, the data on foreign and US overseas investment is not the best set of data the US government publishes. The biggest problem with it is that the US owned investments were made decades ago and most are accounted for at their acquisition cost. The foreign investments have occurred more recently and reflect the effects of inflation. The net of this is that the US still probably owns more assets overseas than foreigners own here.

Secondly, foreigners tend to be more loyal and less informed investors than the locals. Runs on a currency or a local stock market are almost always started by locals who lose confidence. I know from personal experience that was the case in Mexico and Brazil. My bet is that despite what the idiot premier of Maylasia says, it was locals who started the Asian runs.

Finally, as your post points out, the US is the best, highest quality, most stable place in the world to invest. It would be remarkable if we did not have an inflow of investment. The inflow of investment is a reflection of the strength of the US economy, not a weakness.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971116/business/stories/summers_1.html

This brief commentary from the superbear page says it all re: gold. I agree 100%


 Fiend Commentary
 ================

 Gold's Not Shining

Just when it seemed as if it couldn't get worse for the yellow metal, it
manages to plunge even further. It wasn't that long ago that gold traded
above $400 an ounce and now one of the world's oldest stores of value is
struggling to stay above the key $300 level.

Now, every dog and his brother has declared that gold is pretty much dead
for any use other than industrial purposes. Business Week has a recent
article that is almost the exact antithesis of their famous Death of
Equities article first published just months before gold began its long
bear market which is still running to this day.

Nothing has been able to shake gold out of its doldrums. Even the meltdown
of several key Asian stock markets ( and a few Latin ones ) has not boosted
the former safe haven investment. It is certainly possible that the
deflationary implications of the various ( and imminent ) currency
devaluations are outweighing any flight to quality inflows.

This would seem to indicate that gold is going to continue to languish at
low ( perhaps lower ) prices until the deflationary episode has run its
course.

Although this has got to be tremendously disappointing to Gold bugs, it
is very likely that once government printing presses begin to run in
response to various recessions ( and even depressions ) , gold will once
again shine.


all,
EGYPT seems not a good place for this year's christmas.
..LUXOR, Egypt ( AFX ) - Twenty-eight people, including 11 foreign tourists,
were killed when suspected Moslem militants opened fire on tourists outside a
temple here Monday, the Egyptian news agency MENA reported.

The dead in the attack, which occurred outside Hatshepsut's funerary temple
in the Valley of the Queens in Luxor, included 11 Egyptians and six assailants,
MENA said.
p/s CNN MENTIONED only 3 deaths and 22 wounds...!

Whether or not the Death of God, the Death of Gold, or the Colts-over-Green Bay is positive or negative is in the eye of the beholder. Enough of this goldbugs-are-negative claptrap. Speaking boldly for all us, goldbugs have a positive vision of a healthy world economy with prosperity for all ( who want it and are willing to work for it and endure life's vicissitudes along the way ) , with an international economy reflective and supportive of the independent self-interests of the autonomous nation-states, with free markets between those nations that desire them, and the wise, prudent, and freely exercised decision of those nations to link their respective currencies to the stable and stability-generating precious metals.

A negative vision would be one of the evil collusion of power-drunk internationalists scheming toward sterile, stifling and lifeless world totalitarianism by manipulating a recursively self-defining international economy careening toward oblivion and maintained by positivespeak.

"Imagine all the people, living for today." John Lennon

Morning all, Are we beginning to see how Japan intends to deal with its banking problem? If so, Mr. Bond Market isn't going to like it.

Hi Karlito: There are two classes of foreign holders of U.S. debt, governments and private. I suspect that governments are the largest class and their holding have been dropping since August as reflected in Fed custody account records recently posted here. I suspect the reason is to finance problems in the home countries. To the extent that trend continues it will put pressure on U.S. interest rates as the funds needed by the U.S. government must be raised increasingly at home. I am unsure about foreign private sector holders. The general feeling is that they are buying as a safe haven. I do not dispute that; I do doubt that it will continue. Congress is already receiving intense pressure from U.S. exporters who complain about their inability to compete due to an "overvalued" dollar. In the past those type of complaints have been satisfied by a weaker dollar.

There is nothing behind this but good comrades and confidence whose paper is as foul as they are. But people seem to have an intense desire to believe everything has changed, the world is a new place.

Anoyone not preachng the party/system line is a terrorist of one kind or another. This is not freedom, it is the sort lived prosperity before the financial death knell. Markets are being guided by short term political gain. The folly of this is almost upon us.

It will not be long before the horrors of this printing press mania will savage the markets. It is nearly done.

Monday November 17, 5:24 am Eastern Time

Hong Kong gets gold fever amid stock turmoil

By Carrie Lee

HONG KONG, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Hong Kong investors, shying away from a choppy stock market, have got a dose of gold fever and are pouring into jewellers to take advantage of depressed prices, industry sources said on Monday.

``There's a gold fever now because the prices are low,'' said Kent Wong, administration manager at Chow Tai Fook Jewellery Co Ltd, one of the territory's best known goldsmiths.

``Sometimes there are so many customers that they need to wait to be served.''

Wong said the buying spree started in the middle of last month when gold prices fell sharply, boosting the company's sales by 100 percent.

Gold plunged from more than US$320 an ounce to below US$310 in October and has since stayed at low levels as sentiment remained frayed by fears that central banks will dump gold reserves, dealers said.

Gold closed at US$303.40/90 in Hong Kong on Monday.

``But people in Hong Kong habitually start buying when prices are low,'' said Emily Li, manager for Hong Kong and southern China at the World Gold Council, a body promoting the gold trade.

``Recently, gold prices are soft and more attractive. Therefore more people are buying gold,'' she said.

Sales at most gold accessory retailers were up 10 to 30 percent in the past two months, Li said.

Turmoil in the stock and property markets might also encourage some people to turn to gold instead, she said.

Hong Kong stocks have been buffeted by heavy volatility since a big sell-off last month sparked initially by speculative attacks on the local dollar's peg to the U.S. currency.

"To investors, gold is an investment tool," Li said.

Wong said some people, especially the elderly, thought gold was a safe investment and would keep its value.

``Also, the fourth quarter is always busier because many weddings take place at this time of the year. So people take advantage of the low prices to buy gold accessories,'' Li said.

Chinese brides traditionally wear gold jewellery at their wedding banquets.

But year-on-year sales were also up generally in Hong Kong's gold trade in the fourth quarter, market players said.

Chow Tai Fook saw growth of 60 to 70 percent in sales this month over the same period of 1996, Wong said.

Gold bullion houses, whose customers include manufacturers, have also reported sales increases in the past months.

``I estimate, as far as Hong Kong bullion market is concerned, sales were over 100 percent higher in November and October than in September,'' said a dealer at a local bullion house.

http://www.lfcity.com/chart11.htm

Chrystal Ball- tried to send you an email, unable to get through.
Please advise.

Hi Carl: Mr. Bond Market? Neat idea for a coast to coast franchise. One stop shopping, bonds not burgers. Under the Paper Arches, Over 5,000,000,000,000 sold!

Quantum Fund is into this company - 585,938

Wednesday July 23 2:52 PM EDT



Company Press Release

Sedna Reports Results for First Six Months

VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --July 23, 1997-- Sedna Geotech Inc. ( VSE SOT. ) Sedna Geotech Inc. ( the ``Company'' ) ( VSE:SOT ) is pleased to announce the results of the first six months of operations for 1997. ( All figures are in US dollars. ) During this period, gross revenues were $5,983,688, compared to $2,368,573 during the same period in 1996; while net earnings were $1,686,488 ( compared to $801,000 in 1996 ) . EBITDA ( earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization ) for the same period were $2,981,000 for 1997 and $1,395,000 in 1996.

``We are very pleased with the results for the Second Quarter, not only financially, but also with the increase in operating capacity achieved,'' commented the directors.

Sedna also announces the establishment of a Water Drilling Division, which commenced operation in Peru servicing long-term contracts with American Barrick and Newmont Mining.

At the Company's recent Annual General Meeting, Mr. Luis Sergio Caroso de Oliveira was elected to the Board of Directors. Mr. Oliveira, who resides in Brazil, brings to Sedna an important professional background in banking and mining, including positions with Chase Manhattan, Rio Tinto-Zinc do Brazil ( RTZ ) , Cookson Group plc. and Dona Isabel S.A. Mr. Oliveira's formal education includes a graduate degree from Stanford University.

Sedna Geotech Inc. is a Canadian-based exploration drilling company operating in Peru and Brazil, South America. The Company trades on the Senior Board of the VSE under the symbol SOT.

For and on Behalf of the Board SEDNA GEOTECH, INC.

Hans H. Kuppers, Director

FWIW: XAU gif with RSI and Stochastics...On Friday, the price put in a lower low ( 74.09 ) than on Wednesday ( 75.89 ) , but the closing price was a tad higher on Friday than on Wednesday. The RSI, contrary to price, did not confirm a new low, but rather, gave us an A-B-C bottom. In the stochastic, the fast curve crossed up over the slow curve, and both curves turned up. Sure as hell looks like a BUY signal to me. IMVHO we shall see XAU 83.75 within the next couple of days, and 102 within a few weeks.

Donald.... Liked the bubble chart post....

One of the reasons the US dollar is 'overvalued' is the inflow of foreign investment. However, as an occassional traveler overseas, the U.S. dollar is if anything, undervalued, on a purchasing power parity basis. Exporters can whine all they want and Congress can bluster but the market for fx is just too big for any government to move without a significant change in monetary or fiscal policy.

The added attraction of dollar based investments is that real interest rates in the US are still very high. Certainly, central governments are reducing their positions, but private investors have more than made up the difference.

Finally, the Fed govt's demand for fresh credit continues to fall. If the economy continues to expand, there will be a surplus in a year or two. If deflation becomes a reality, interest rates can only go lower, further reducing the governments debt burden.

All: Morning -- Might want to confirm this, but looks like Saddam is backing down -- he will probably wait for one of the US carriers to leave, or some other crisis. Perhaps nothing till January. Wonder how much gold ( or whatever ) he has to pay his personal guard. That is probably the rate-limiting-factor. His popularity with his guard will drop precipitously if he can't pay them.

Just heard 61 dead in terrorist attack, including Japanese and Swiss tourists. Can anyone verify?

Good morning ! How may I help you this morning, my brother?

Anyone: Where can I get a 20 minute delayed gold price? It may seem like a stupid question but my Kitco chart is stuck on last night around 8pm est. The numerical fix also seems out of date. Thanks.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971113/philippines_law_mini_1.html

Good mornin all! S+P futures up 11.40~~~~~~~~~~

S.Korean won's sudden plunge rekindles woes
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/korea_currency_2.html

Calls for public funds seen in Japan banking mess
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/japan_bank_funds_new_1.html

OPENING BELL COMMENTS
http://38.209.4.67/open.html
You may need to refresh your cache.

Monthly chart of National Bank.
OZ's largest market cap.
http://165.247.180.114/pub/discussion/Nab1.gif
Amazing Gravestone Doji.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/business/stories/summers_2.html

Gunmen attack tourists at Egypt's Luxor temple site
November 17, 1997
Web posted at: 7:51 a.m. EST ( 1251 GMT )
CAIRO, Egypt ( CNN ) -- Unidentified gunmen opened fire at the world famous Pharo-era temple site of Luxor in southern Egypt on Monday, killing an unknown number of international tourists.

State television issued a brief statement saying "attackers hit a number of foreigners, Egyptians and policemen who exchanged fire with them. Security forces are chasing the perpetrators of this criminal act."

The precise number of deaths remained unclear. But the latest report said six gunmen, three other Egyptians and 11 international tourists had died in the attack, which took place about 300 miles ( 500 km ) south of Cairo.

A spokesman for a travel agency in Luxor was quoted as saying that the gunmen opened fire indiscriminately on tourists of various nationalities as they prepared to enter a temple about 9 a.m.


The assailants then left an empty tour bus, which they had apparently hijacked, and reportedly fled toward the desert and nearby mountains.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack.

The Luxor incident came two months after nine German tourists and an Egyptian driver were killed when a tour bus was firebombed outside the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. The authorities at the time said the attack was carried out by deranged criminals and was not politically motivated.

Attacks by Muslim militants have killed 34 international tourists in the past five years. Overall about 1,100 people have been killed since 1992, when extremists launched a campaign aimed at ousting President Hosni Mubarak.

Reporter Alphonso Van Marsh, The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Good morning, rmw. For GCZ7 quote, try http://cbs.marketwatch.com/data/marketdata.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

With Britzkrieg effectiveness the Nikkei soared 1200 points on Monday to 16283 -- a gain of nearly 8%.

REPORT FROM TOKYO: Monday's rally reflected a perception among investors that authorities were taking active steps to help the ailing financial sector following news that Hokkaido Takushoku
Bank Ltd's business will be taken over by another regional bank.

The above will eventually prove INDEED to be a mamouth understatement... that authorities were taking active steps to help the ailing financial sector... IMO there is only one force which possesses the financial clout and MOTIVATION to temporaily detour the downward spiral of Japanese stock prices: THE BANK OF JAPAN ( BOJ ) - Central Bank of Japan!

Consider the scenario. Japans corporate world riddled with scandal... top executives jailed. The economy in a worsening recession. Interest rates nearly abolished in futile attempt to stimulate economic activity. Japanese Banking system relentlessly crumbling due to domestic unperforming loans, estimated by Nippon experts to be between US$400-US$800. Adding to the the banking systems burden are massive bank failures in most Tiger nations, which are the Nippons largest debtors. Massive withdrawals of funds from Japanese insurance companies, due to fear they will fail. In light of all these negative factors the Japanese saver has lost all confidence in their financial sector. ALL THE ABOVE IS KNOWN TO EVERYONE... native and foreigner. SO, WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY COME FROM TO CAUSE AN 8% RISE IN THE NIKKEI IN ONE SINGLE DAY?????

It is not foreign money!
It is not Japanese savers money!
It can ONLY be the BOJ, which has motive and means!

Whereas the BOJ will momentarily deter the slide in Nikkei, it will not resolve the underlying problems plaguing Japan and the rest of Asia. It is a ruse to confuse.

To appreciate the grim financial and economic conditions - becoming worse daily - one must examine the problems. This weekend an outstanding article was posted at GOLD-EAGLE, which describes in minute detail what is happening in Asia.
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/kutyn111597.html

CNBC 303.70 Kitco 303.15
Somebody kick start the Gold chart! has life?
Futures up 11.5 not 15 after a 1200pt. move on Neikei.
Dollar ? Bonds? Whatchem!!!!

It seems the Japanese Govt has taken a lesson from Rubin and formed their own crash prevention team,print yen buy Japanese stocks.

As I stated last night upon seeing the remarkable move in the Japanese market.

The death knell is complete.

Up= down

OUTLOOK

Gold, precious metals
No silver lining in sight for gold watchers

Monday, November 17, 1997
By Stephen Northfield
Investment Reporter

The bloodletting in the gold sector isn't over yet, but the bottom can't be far off, analysts say.

Gold stocks, under incredible pressure this year, got hammered last week as bullion prices slipped
precariously closer to $300 ( U.S. ) an ounce, a level not seen since 1985. Bullion, which briefly sank
below $300 an ounce on Friday, closed the day at $303.70, down from highs of more than $400 in
early 1996.

The Toronto Stock Exchange's gold and precious minerals index slumped another 3.1 per cent
Friday bringing the year-to-date loss to a crippling 42.2 per cent. The TSE 300-stock composite
gained 13.5 per cent over that period.

While there are a host of reasons that the gold market should be under pressure, most analysts
agreed that simple gloomy sentiment is driving the market now. "I think it has gone beyond the
fundamentals to a certain extent," said Victor Flores, analyst with Marleau Lemire Securities Inc.

Gold bugs have been forced to endure a withering spate of bad news in recent times. With gold
prices already dropping, news last month that Switzerland may sell off up to one third of its reserves
sent prices tumbling.

Last week, Germany's Bundesbank acknowledged it is lending out some of its gold reserves, which
pushed prices lower again. In July, Australia said it had sold off two-thirds of its gold reserves.

While physical demand for gold continues to increase, central bank selling has more than covered
the new demand, said Vahid Fathi, analyst with ABN AMRO Chicago Corp. in Chicago. "Central
bank selling is what has been the fundamental change in the gold business."

At the same time, currency devaluations across Asia makes gold, which is priced in U.S. dollars,
more expensive for Asian consumers, a key source of world demand. And slowing Asian
economies are expected to have a deflationary effect globally. That reduces the attractiveness of
gold to investors because the metal tends to thrive in an inflationary environment.

"The big debate going on these days is deflation or inflation, and deflation is becoming the
flavour-de-jour," said Tom Caldwell, president of Caldwell Securities Ltd. in Toronto.

All these factors have combined to turn sentiment on the yellow metal from gloom to outright doom.
For that reason alone, many analysts expect further weakness for both bullion and gold stocks.

"The sentiment is so negative that I think we could see the next support level at between $270 [an
ounce] and $280, and my feeling is that would be the bottom if $300 isn't the bottom," said Judy
Baker, analyst with Loewen Ondaatje McCutcheon Ltd. in Toronto.

Mr. Fathi said he now believes gold could slip down to $285 an ounce, and gold stocks drop
another 15 per cent. "At that [price] level, you would have a significant portion of global mining
production in jeopardy . . . so that's a good number to look at." He is forecasting an average price
of $345 for 1998.

Swooning gold prices are already having an impact. On Friday, Royal Oak Mines Inc. said it
would mine only those areas of its mining operations economic at a gold price below $300. The
Kirkland, Wash.-based miner also plans to cut employment. And neighbour Pegasus Gold Inc. of
Spokane, Wash., said it is writing down the value of its assets by $396.8-million and planning to
close its Mount Todd gold mine in Australia.

Once gold reaches a bottom -- which it could hit before year-end -- Mr. Fathi said he would regard
it as a "significant buying opportunity" for gold stocks.

The problem is that calling the bottom on the gold market this year has been a bit like juggling
chainsaws -- potentially fatal. "The danger with trying to bottom pick when people don't like a stock
is that sometimes they go from not liking it to really not liking it," Mr. Caldwell said.

"Telling people to own gold stocks has not been good this year and saying that 'now it has really
bottomed' is probably not good either," Mr. Flores said.

Still, "the time to buy these things is when everyone is selling them." His top picks include Cambior
Inc., Dayton Mining Corp., Meridian Gold Inc., Sutton Resources Ltd., Crown Resource Corp.,
Metallica Resources Inc. and Barrick Gold Corp.

Toronto-based Barrick also got the nod in recent reports from ABN AMRO Chicago, Canaccord
Capital Corp., Research Capital Corp. and Oppenheimer & Co.

While Ms. Baker is expecting gold to bounce back somewhat, she said bullion prices aren't likely to
break above $350 during the next year. Still, the rebound could come fast and hard. A lot of
speculators have sold bullion and gold stocks short and will be looking to cover those positions
quickly if gold prices look set to snap back, she said. Her top picks are Greenstone Resources
Ltd. and TVX Gold Inc. , both of Toronto.

Mr. Fathi said that if the sector rebounds, the best short-term gains will be made by holding a
basket of the lower-priced stocks of small to mid-level producers.

[ News ] [ Sports ] [ The Arts ] [ Commentary ] [ Report on Business ]



Back to the top of the page

We welcome your comments.
Copyright  1997, The Globe and Mail Company
All rights reserved.

Date: Mon Nov 17 1997 08:14
Crystal Ball ( @Reify ) ID#287377:
Good morning ! How may I help you this morning, my brother?
Tried to email you it was returned. Please email me again to see if
the lines are open, so I can try again. Thanks.

It is hard for an empty sack to stand upright.

Ben Franklin

Mornin Selby! Too bad wasn't more of a game and it kinda resembled the "Stupor Bowl"....without the hype!





OUTLOOK

Gold, precious metals
No silver lining in sight for gold watchers

Monday, November 17, 1997
By Stephen Northfield
Investment Reporter

The bloodletting in the gold sector isn't over yet, but the bottom can't be far off, analysts say.

Gold stocks, under incredible pressure this year, got hammered last week as bullion prices slipped
precariously closer to $300 ( U.S. ) an ounce, a level not seen since 1985. Bullion, which briefly sank
below $300 an ounce on Friday, closed the day at $303.70, down from highs of more than $400 in
early 1996.

The Toronto Stock Exchange's gold and precious minerals index slumped another 3.1 per cent
Friday bringing the year-to-date loss to a crippling 42.2 per cent. The TSE 300-stock composite
gained 13.5 per cent over that period.

While there are a host of reasons that the gold market should be under pressure, most analysts
agreed that simple gloomy sentiment is driving the market now. "I think it has gone beyond the
fundamentals to a certain extent," said Victor Flores, analyst with Marleau Lemire Securities Inc.

Gold bugs have been forced to endure a withering spate of bad news in recent times. With gold
prices already dropping, news last month that Switzerland may sell off up to one third of its reserves
sent prices tumbling.

Last week, Germany's Bundesbank acknowledged it is lending out some of its gold reserves, which
pushed prices lower again. In July, Australia said it had sold off two-thirds of its gold reserves.

While physical demand for gold continues to increase, central bank selling has more than covered
the new demand, said Vahid Fathi, analyst with ABN AMRO Chicago Corp. in Chicago. "Central
bank selling is what has been the fundamental change in the gold business."

At the same time, currency devaluations across Asia makes gold, which is priced in U.S. dollars,
more expensive for Asian consumers, a key source of world demand. And slowing Asian
economies are expected to have a deflationary effect globally. That reduces the attractiveness of
gold to investors because the metal tends to thrive in an inflationary environment.

"The big debate going on these days is deflation or inflation, and deflation is becoming the
flavour-de-jour," said Tom Caldwell, president of Caldwell Securities Ltd. in Toronto.

All these factors have combined to turn sentiment on the yellow metal from gloom to outright doom.
For that reason alone, many analysts expect further weakness for both bullion and gold stocks.

"The sentiment is so negative that I think we could see the next support level at between $270 [an
ounce] and $280, and my feeling is that would be the bottom if $300 isn't the bottom," said Judy
Baker, analyst with Loewen Ondaatje McCutcheon Ltd. in Toronto.

Mr. Fathi said he now believes gold could slip down to $285 an ounce, and gold stocks drop
another 15 per cent. "At that [price] level, you would have a significant portion of global mining
production in jeopardy . . . so that's a good number to look at." He is forecasting an average price
of $345 for 1998.

Swooning gold prices are already having an impact. On Friday, Royal Oak Mines Inc. said it
would mine only those areas of its mining operations economic at a gold price below $300. The
Kirkland, Wash.-based miner also plans to cut employment. And neighbour Pegasus Gold Inc. of
Spokane, Wash., said it is writing down the value of its assets by $396.8-million and planning to
close its Mount Todd gold mine in Australia.

Once gold reaches a bottom -- which it could hit before year-end -- Mr. Fathi said he would regard
it as a "significant buying opportunity" for gold stocks.

The problem is that calling the bottom on the gold market this year has been a bit like juggling
chainsaws -- potentially fatal. "The danger with trying to bottom pick when people don't like a stock
is that sometimes they go from not liking it to really not liking it," Mr. Caldwell said.

"Telling people to own gold stocks has not been good this year and saying that 'now it has really
bottomed' is probably not good either," Mr. Flores said.

Still, "the time to buy these things is when everyone is selling them." His top picks include Cambior
Inc., Dayton Mining Corp., Meridian Gold Inc., Sutton Resources Ltd., Crown Resource Corp.,
Metallica Resources Inc. and Barrick Gold Corp.

Toronto-based Barrick also got the nod in recent reports from ABN AMRO Chicago, Canaccord
Capital Corp., Research Capital Corp. and Oppenheimer & Co.

While Ms. Baker is expecting gold to bounce back somewhat, she said bullion prices aren't likely to
break above $350 during the next year. Still, the rebound could come fast and hard. A lot of
speculators have sold bullion and gold stocks short and will be looking to cover those positions
quickly if gold prices look set to snap back, she said. Her top picks are Greenstone Resources
Ltd. and TVX Gold Inc. , both of Toronto.

Mr. Fathi said that if the sector rebounds, the best short-term gains will be made by holding a
basket of the lower-priced stocks of small to mid-level producers.

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We welcome your comments.
Copyright  1997, The Globe and Mail Company
All rights reserved.

Oracle: In reading back I see that I was 8 minutes late, oh well a $ short again.

Reify: My e-mail address is Avikey@aol.com.

Is yours Reify @sitcom.co.il ?

Hey,I didn't hit V again---what the hell happened?

SPEED: Ur 07:13 - Money pouring into mutual funds? The last Barrons shows for the latest week reported on, an outflow in the Equity Funds. While this may be a blip, it shows the figure can turn on a dime. As for a case for gold: On any given day a case can be made for about anything happening in the markets - and is made of course for all to read right here at this site. From my long experience of watching and investing in the markets if you are long term oriented buy when the clouds are darkest and sell during the buying panic. Sometimes it takes a lot of years in the execution - no pun intended ;- )

"New Era" Late industrial societies accept an obligation to ensure that all their citizens do receive a money income sufficient to enable them to subsist. But the assumption still is that the normal way to get this income is from paid employment, either directly as an employee or indirectly as a dependent of an employee.

People who get their income from the state, for example, in the form of unemployment benefit or social security benefit, are treated as unfortunate exceptions to this general rule.

They are regarded as second-class citizens, and are subjected to severe restrictions. These limit their freedom to commit themselves to useful activities, such as training or voluntary work ( since these might make them unavailable to take a conventional job, if one existed ) , and heavily discourage them from trying to build up paid work on their own account.

The Business-as-Usual view thus assumes that people who don't have a job can do no useful work; that, if they want to work, they should look for a job; and that the main objectives of government policy should be to encourage this, while creating conditions in which enough jobs will once again be available for all.

This new kind of labour leader was sometimes in a cell one day and the guest of honour at a banquet the next. More than one turned up at the conference table with a black eye, or an arm in a sling, the result of an attack by police or goons. Labour , in 1937, was not just a program of economic improvement. It was a way of life, a holy creed, a passionate belief, a blazing crusade for which thousands were ready to give their lives.

President Roosevelt warned in 1938, the depression which had meant suffering for the people had meant oppotunity for the great corporations. Monopoly was steadily increasing in power and concentration. On April 29 the President told Congress:
" The statistical history of modern times proves that in times of depression concentration of business speeds up. Bigger business then has larger opportunities to grow still bigger at the expense of smaller competitors who are weakened by financial adversity."

" Close financial control, through interlocking spheres of influence over channels of investment, and through the use of financial devices like holding companies and strategic minority interests, creates close control of the business policies of enterprise which masquerade as independent units. That heavy hand of integrated financial and management control lies upon the strategic areas of American industry. Private enterprise is ceasing to be free enterprise and is becoming a cluster of private collectivisms; masking itself as a system of free enterprise after the American model, it is fast becoming a concealed cartel system after the European model."

The government National Resources Committee reported in 1939 that the nation's economy was largely controlled by eight comparatively small groups of men "by no means independent of each other" The eight groups, controlled $61,000,000,000 of investments in industrial corporations, railroads, banks, and public utilities, were Morgan-First National, Rockefeller, Kuhn, Loeb, Mellon, du Pont, the Chicago group, the Cleveland group, and the Boston group.

Crystal Ball - Your 7:59 XAU comments are right on! Also the gut meter reader points out that any market that drops 30% in just over three weeks ( Oct. 23 - Nov. 14 ) is due for a technical bounce at the very least.

Donald, I can't go back to previous postings to check, but it seems to me that you pretty well called what is so far happening, starting in Asia, months ago. Congratulations. So where does the debt implosion go next? How do you see the time frame for interest rate rises due to world wide need for liquidity? Do you see radical steps on the horizon by individual countries, other than interest rate increases, to hang on to capital?

All: G'day
JTF: That Gordian knot keeping me awake ( kinda )
TED: gold showing up 0.40 at kitco, you buying again?
: too much flak first thing this am for a speach. Gotta get the planets aligned with the techtonic plates before the muse visit, either that our a grand toast to Bacchus.

here for a while, Go Hashimoto, Buy Gold

Live data from SIMEX:
Other Futures Contracts
Eurodollar - Euroyen - Nikkei 300 - Euromark -10yr Japanese Govt Bond - Spot US$/Yen - Spot US$/DM - Fuel Oil - Gold - Brent - Crude -MSCI - Taiwan Index -Options Contracts
http://web3.asia1.com.sg/cgi-bin/simex/futuresdet.pl?nikkei225

Today's TOPIX - Intraday
http://www.tse.or.jp/xe/edef.html

This bull run could end up being the greatest bull trap ever.
A reversal from the top of this rally could be the trigger to bring on the crash.
Bulls are going crazy - forgotten already the bear of last week.
Up/down volume going to the moon.

This rally is mania surpreme.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value.

Thomas Paine

November 17, 1997
Rayrock sets reorganization

TORONTO, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Rayrock Yellowknife Resources announced on Monday details of a reorganization of the company's gold and copper mining assets and the creation of a focused metal company, Pxy Mining Corp. The proposed reorganization would also affect the interests of related mining companies, Minera Rayrock Inc and Inter-Rock Gold Inc , Rayrock said.

"Our two principal objectives in proposing the reorganization are to strategically focus our core group of operating companies and to make the group's structure simpler," Rayrock Chairman David Crombie said. Rayrock said Pyx would be focused exclusively on metal mining projects and would hold the group's entire gold and copper portfolio, which include mines in Chile, Panama, Ireland and the United States.

Crombie said the company consulted with shareholders and professional advisers before announcing the planned reorganization. Under the terms of the proposal, Rayrock shareholders will receive one Pyx share at no additional cost while continuing to hold their Rayrock shares, Rayrock said.

If approved, the plan would allow shareholders to receive one Pyx share for 7.1 Minera shares and one Pyx share for 5.7 Inter-Rock shares. The planned reorganization will also include elimination of all inter-company debt through an exchange of shares and cash, Rayrock said.

November 17, 1997
World Wide Minerals to set up gold unit

TORONTO, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - World Wide Minerals Ltd said on Monday that its board of directors had approved a plan to split the company's gold and uranium businesses and establish a new gold mining subsidiary.
World Wide Minerals said it intended to convert its gold subsidiary into a separate public company by either acquiring control of an existing public company or by making an initial public offering of shares of the subsidiary.

The split of the two operations will allow World Wide to better focus on the separate businesses and permit the uranium and gold assets to better reflect their respective values, the company said.

November 17, 1997
China says jobless rate 10 percent in northeast

BEIJING ( Reuters ) - The jobless rate in China's northeast rust-belt, home to much of the state's heavy industry, has reached about 10 percent, the People's Daily said in an unusually frank report Monday.

Unemployment in the region had become a fact of life, and many workers were facing a crisis, the Communist Party newspaper reported. The number of workers either unemployed or idle had reached 1.1 million in Liaoning province, home to about one-tenth of all of China's large- and medium-sized enterprises, it said.

Liaoning's total workforce is 9.8 million."Despite its glorious history, Liaoning now has 1.1 million unemployed and 'xiagang' workers," said the Communist Party daily. "Xiagang" -- which translates roughly as "to stand down" -- refers to workers sent home by ailing companies while remaining
on the books and receiving nominal pay.

"In a sense, unemployment and layoffs have become inevitable and it has become the reality," the newspaper said. "Many workers face a crisis of unemployment and 'xiagang."'Official data shows unemployment in China at about 4.0 percent.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/ECONOMY-CHINA-UNEMPLO.html

November 17, 1997
Japan Inc. braces for 3-year profit run to fizzle

TOKYO ( Reuters ) - Japan Inc. is bracing for a three-year run of robust profits to fizzle out as a slump in sales at home and faltering markets elsewhere in Asia hurt the balance sheets of big firms.

"We have a lot of negative factors at hand," Matsushita said. The yen's weakness may bring smaller benefits to firms than in the past, while there may be no quick turnaround in weakened consumption," he said.

The currency turmoil in Southeast Asia, which started this summer, will also take its toll on Japanese corporate profits in the second half, he added.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/ECONOMY-JAPAN-PROFITS.html

November 17, 1997
U.S. output rose, capacity use hit 2-1/2-year high

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Industrial output rose in October as businesses ran at their fastest operating rates in 2-1/2 years, the Federal Reserve said Monday. Total ouput by the nation's mines, factories and utilities rose 0.5 percent last month after a revised 0.5 percent increase in
September. The capacity use rate, which measures how close businesses are to their maximum operating capacity, rose to 84.3 percent -- the highest since an 84.3 percent reading in March 1995.

November 17, 1997
Merrill sees global growth slowing, Asia worst hit

HONG KONG ( Reuters ) - Economic growth will slow in almost every region in the world in 1998 and Asia will see the greatest declines, Merrill Lynch chief economist Bruce Steinberg said in Hong Kong Monday. "The most rapid slowdown will be seen in Asia, the center of the storm," Steinberg told a news conference.

Slower global economic growth would yield slower U.S. corporate earnings growth, but the good news was less inflation and lower U.S. interest rates in 1998.

"My opinion is that at some point in 1998 the Federal Reserve will actually be easing U.S. monetary policy," Steinberg said. "So I look for interest rates in the U.S. to decline really as a direct result of events here in Asia."

He did not give a forecast for U.S. interest rates.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/ECONOMY-GROWTH.html

Are the dramatic market upheavals WORLDWIDE in recent weeks trying to tell us something that is NOT YET apparent?

The once mighty Tiger stock markets of Asia have seen securities prices decimated -- a week ago Hong Kongs Hang Seng Stock Market Average lost more than 10% in ONE TRADING SESSION - and continues its downward spiral! The Nikkei penetrated the psychologically important 17000 level - purportedly the sacrosanct value where the Japanese banking system begins to come apart at the seams. And late last night it came within a whisker of breaking 15000! Many South Sea currencies lambasted, and financial institutions beginning to crumble. The selling panic is spilling over into Wall Street, which is dragging down most European stock indices.

For some time prior to this gold has inexorably been wasting away... that is until a few weeks ago when it suffered a coup dgrace - diving more than $16 in a single day for a loss of 5%. And today, November 14, the yellow dove to $300. It is painfully obvious a draconian change is taking place... but what is the prime motive force... and its purpose?

I cannot discard the helpless feeling something is going on that is not readily apparent... at least not to me. Last night in shifting through all the worlds debris in search of some rhyme or reason for the cause of these dramatic market moves worldwide I reread the June report, SEVEN GOLDEN THREADS OF THE GLOBAL QUILT by the Oracle of Alberta - in which he alludes to the possibility of A SINGLE WORLD CURRENCY.

A Single World Currency? To contemplate such a scenario of power and control seems almost preposterous. But is it? Consider for a moment the events that would usher in a single world currency in an electronic medium. These might include: financial and stock market chaos; the collapse of the U.S. dollar, Yen or the stillbirth of the Euro; war in the Middle East; a worldwide banking crisis; or other global unrest.

Is the worldwide financial paradigm changing as we speak? Are global market forces reacting simply to imbalances, or is there a specific force orchestrating the financial and monetary machinations... and if the latter, what is their game-plan and purpose? The Oracle of Alberta has an intriguing and plausible idea of what is really going on:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/alberta604.html

He, new location!!!

What is the latest on BGO @2 -1/8, others are even or up

Testing

A new BLUE!
Could this be a sign that the trend has changed?

6 Pak Re your 10:10 - Sounds like M.L. has figured out what I was explaining in one of my posts last week. Depressed Markets=Depressed Pocket Books=Depressed Population=Depressed Spending=Depressed Economies= Depression!

High Rise, I've been searching for BGO news. Found nothing. High volume too. Aren't you the OSU fan? How about a little ( non ) gentlemen's bet on Sat. game? One self administered dope slap even up!

6 Pak - Sounds like M.L. has figured out what I was explaining in my post last week. Depressed Markets=Depressed Pocket Books=Depressed Population=Depressed Spending=Depressed Economies=Depression!
Before anybody makes silly comments about this post; this does not particularily make me happy. Just reporting reality folks.

Ted - Quit jamming up the bandwidth with all those double posts. You must get out of Canada and clear your head from all the Nabobs and Cabals...

rmw - try this for ten minute delayed

http://www.futuresource.com/cgi-bin/charts32s.exe?chart=Gold+Futures&month=Dec+%2797 gold up 50!!! BIG RALLY SOON!!!!

Donald - Looks like it's time to go long en. When en gets this low out come ALL the respective G-men to 'prop' it up. As I have said and you well know...it's not about economic strength anymore, no? as long as I make a buck.......ME ME ME! ;- )

away...to drink some OJ/JO...oh my!!

ob of Na

Carl : I learned my lesson a LONG time ago not to bet on this "The Game". All bets are off. How beat up are you Guys from last Sat., We had an easy one, played 2nd & 3rd team. You Guys look strong this year. We just keep getting better each game, hopefully we will be good enough on Saturday. The Question is, as always, will OSU play teir game or the one "the team up north" wants them to play?

Sorry about the double post folks, but I was lost in space for awhile as it seemed I was posting at about the time that Bart was switching systems. IF we indeed have to post using a proper e-mail address from now on I would like to calm anyone's fears by mentioning that I have been using my real e-mail address for more than a year and a half now on this site and have never yet had even one untoward incident. I was telling everyone this a year ago and could not figure out everybody's worries and secretiveness. It is mostly the cretins who have the largest reason to be adverse to use their real e-mail.

Carl - that is good therapy sometimes. It must be something that GoldBugs alike know well and Love. ;- )

I imagine it to be regimine for many of the politicians surrounding the Globe, eh? They must be covered with welts from head to toes...uh huh.

away...to slap myself around



go gold!

The Japanese market going up roughly 1200 point is similar to a 500 point rise in the Dow is it not. If so, this would mean that$600 billion or so was injected into the market.

Where did this money come from?

This new Blue is more of a UCLA baby blue, wouldn't you say?

"HOURS OF LABOUR" ( 1866 ) ( USofA ) Reduction of hours, without decrease in pay would necessitate a larger labour force resulting in increased purchasing power which would end depressions, increase production. It would bring opportunity for learning and development to the workingman, as well as sweet rest, while solving all ills of society.

The regular army and the National Guards of the various states, particularly in Colorado and Idaho, were called out at least a dozen times in a dozen years. Either federal or state troops were sent against the miners in the bloody strikes of Coeur d'Alene in 1892, of Leadville in 1896, at Salt Lake City and Coeur d'Alene again in 1899, at Telluride in 1901 and 1903, in Idaho Spring and Cripple Creek in 1903.

In this great 1903-04 strike for the eight-hour day in Colorado 42 men were killed, 112 wounded, 1,345 arrested and imprisoned in bullpens, or military concentration camps, and 773 deported from the state.

One reason for the bitterness of this Colorado strike was that the miners were not taking anything any more. Former cowboys, lumbermen, prospectors, trappers, and hunters for the most part, they did not take kindly to the blacklist nor to the slow starvation of the lockout.

The mining camp, with its solitary street lined with saloons between the almost perpendicular walls of some Rocky Mountain canyon, was not a school for gentleness.

With immense effort the miners and their allies had gained a state referendum on the proposition of amending the constitution so that an eight-hour day would be constitutional. Rallying a wide segment of the public, the miners gained another victory when the amendment passed by a majority of 47,000.

Still the owners did not accede; still the ordinary workday was for twelve hours, seven days a week. In addition, smelter men, worked around the clock, twenty-four hours. Labour then succeeded, by another mobilization of the voters, in electing a new legislature pledged to the passage of new eight-hour law. But the bribery and influence of the owners proved stronger than the will of the people.

The miners and smelter men continued to work a minimum eighty-four-hour week, the smelter men received $1,80 a day, the miners often less than $3.00. Weekly pay, after the usual deductions of company towns for food and rent, was often no more than $10 or $15.

Vronsky,Aurator, all: With regard to your ( Vronsky's ) 10:27 on the possibility of a new world currency, I would like to repeat two points we do know:

1 ) There is always a defacto world currency -- by default. Until a major crisis shakes the confidence in that currency, a new one is unlikely to replace it -- human nature. Ie, the Pound sterling that preceeded the US$.

2 ) The EURO/ECU/EMU that is expected to go online 1/1/99 is unspecified. Noone ( there I go again! ) knows how much gold is to be placed where ( if any? ) , and there is no prototype ready for testing that is to automatically correct for local changes in inflation or interest rate effects ( G Soros criticism ) . Rudiger Dornbusch ( who should know ) has essentially admitted this latter point ( see SDRer's post on RD ) .

It puzzles me that why such a momentous event such as the "birth" of the new Eurodollar is not planned years in advance. Isn't it odd that little is happening? Is this because "the powers that be" can't get their act together, or is it because there are a number of choices, and "the powers that be" are waiting for something to happen to the dollar first?

If the dollar falters, the new EURO could be altered at the last minute, if the precise formulas are not publicized, and it would look as if it was planned this way. If I were responsible for EURO, I would have all the details worked out already, with several contingency backup plans, all tested by computer modeling. As some have mentioned, there may be another group that has a backup currency if the EURO never gets off the ground. This backup is bound to be commodity-based on gold, but will not get anywhere until after a major financial crisis. What Western World public figure thinks gold is important these days anyway?

Comments? Thoughts?

I have joined this discussion group about 3 months ago. I must say that I agree with most of participants' point of view. I have been involved in the gold market through options, stocks and physical metal for about 3 years.My common sense and logic tells me that "Things are not as they appear" and eventually the free markets will catch on and reset the game back to reality. However, I see more and more that truth does not matter. What matters in the markets any more are the lies and manipulations perpetrated by the governments, special interest groups and CBs in a coordinated fashion. We live in a control world where yes is no and vice versa. I have always known that there was a degree of influence by govts,CBs and other powerful groups, however, never realized how complete and pervasive this control has become.

So, all this leads me to ask any of you a question: IS THERE ANY POINT TO PM INVESTING ????????????

It came from my Tequila fund. Pocket change Bro... ( wink/grin )

away



One self administered dope slap even up!
I have already drawn blood, not sure how many more slaps I can take. Gold has to bounce one of these days - doesn't it? Seems like it should - doesn't it? There I go stammering again!
Later

HighRise, BGO volume approaching 1 million @ 11:00. What's going on? Michigan has one offensive lineman with ankle problem, don't know how serious. Two corner backs out. The story this year is that no one has realized how quick they are until they get on the field with them.

XAU taking a pretty hard kick from PGU's plummet to oblivion, but the rest of the complex looks constructive. Expect to see ABX touch 20 by Wednesday ( latest ) , and at 23 1/2 or more in a few weeks.

Yes, at some point THEY will turn to the PMs for profit. I want to be there when that happens. If I can buy at these prices and hang long, it won't matter exactly when that happens.
The profit potential is great enough to wait - isn't it?
SLAP! SLAP!

Steady: I throughly agree with your sentiments. I have followed PM
investments for 20 years and now find this to be a manipulated market.
To answer your question: Currently their does not seem to be any point to
investing in PM. We have an "alice in wonderland" market and nothing in the financial world is as it sems to be.

Mooney::....Action = Re-Action. Yes, Monopoly will be hiring. As Jay Gould stated in 1886 "I can hire half the working class to kill the other half"

I posted the post about the eight-hour day fight, to give a view of other actions that will be common place in our respective communities in the very near future. There is much more then economic consideration, to have a community that has life. Yes, I do believe, that the eight-hour fight will return. Yes, the worker is much more educated in 1997, and no, they ( the workers ) will no longer accept the fear of retirement, and the bull sh** that you must have a million dollars to retire. Give away a life for paper wealth ? not likely. Well maybe not so, half will. Those that want to kill the other half, eh! ( Army - National Guard etc. ) : ) : ) : )

Yeh, OSU has noticed their quickness over the last few years. How long have some of those guys been in school? It seems like the fast guys have been there for ever.

BGO discussion line, interesting to read past post. These people have been following BGO for a long time, they know the names of the CeO's children. Quite a story about Chile mine fields, there value and sale. You may want to cruise ahead to the lastest post #?
http://www3.techstocks.com/~wsapi/investor/s-6647/reply-7266

November 12, 1997
Union says NB ignoring miners' woes

SUSSEX, N.B. ( CP ) - The union representing workers at a New Brunswick potash mine has accused the province of not doing enough to keep the mine open.

Members of the United Steelworkers are organizing a rally today at the
Potash Co. of Canada mine near Sussex, N.B.The company is closing the 18-year-old mine because of what it describes as uncontrollable flooding.
But union officials, speaking on behalf of the roughly 500 workers who will lose their jobs, don't accept company claims that the mine is doomed.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/AtlanticTicker/CANOE-wire.Potacan-Protest.html

IS THERE ANY POINT TO PM INVESTING ? Most definitely YES !! The laws of nature and physics have not been repealed for governments. One can compress and cool hydrogen to almost absolute zero and turn it into a liquid, but the energy expenditure is enormous, and cannot be maintained indefinitely. Similarly, governments can spend enormous amounts of money and energy trying to bend and warp the natural course of events, but the more they distort reality, their actions in themselves create greater and greater opposing forces that must in the end prevail. The U.S. dumped tons of silver to hold it at $1.29, but had to abandon the strategy in 1964. Result- silver soared! They tried this game in gold in 1968 and failed miserably. Their resources are FINITE, and therefore they must eventually fail! The longer they keep gold's price artificially low, the greater the upward explosion when they finally tire and let it go. I fully expect to see gold at $3,000/oz in my lifetime. ( There you go, Tolerant1! Someone has made

test

Here we go

Date: Fri Nov 07 1997 11:02
Mooney* ( @Bottoms.Up! ) ID#348169:
I forgot to mention the most obviously bullish scenario ( chart-wise ) would be for a double bottom to be put in place by Dec. Gold right now at about the $308. area. If this holds we may then spike upwards to fill the small gap in the $321/22.5 area.

Wonder whatzup with ECO ... huge volume and down /4 ( 8% ) ..anybody know?

Bart...Buddy!! What happened?? My creative abilities are being stiffled ;- ) I am feeling Very unclothed right now...

I bet Comex trading floor is all BUT boring today. I wonder who is slapping who??

CrystalB/Mooney* - Are you two using that ole trading strategy...Wishful Thinking?? The XAU at 102?? In two weeks?? Hmmmmmmmmm... Moonsters, tsk, tsk, this chart looks to be following a trend...hmmmmmmmmm...

away...to 'Savage' ( ly ) follow the trend ;- ) and find some new rags...


Date: Fri Nov 07 1997 10:54
Mooney* ( @EB and GSC and RJ ) ID#348169:
EB - I took a look at the daily Dec. Gold chart as you requested last night. The line of descent connecting all the tops since the beginning of Oct. looks very ominous and suggests that RJ's previous $280. prediction is now becoming a possibility ( much as I hate to admit it ) . Most here will remember that after the July ( Aussi-induced ) melt-down I had a minor discussion with George Cole as to whether we would then form a base or whether the'second shoe' would drop. Well, after a false breakout into the upper $330's we have, since Oct 9th, been in a sharp downtrend. The 'second shoe' dropped on or about Oct.23/24 when support in the $320/22 was decisively broken. For short term commodity traders I suppose a good time to buy would be when the market closes two days in a row above this downtrend line.

Ya can't fool mother nature! Government manipulation has never worked in the long run. In fact, if you attempt to keep the sand pile from collapsing by supporting it then the 'collapse' will be even worse. At some point natural law will overcome all obstacles and will enforce reality.

Consider the obviously desperate situation when institutions are actually talking out loud about their manipulations, where it is so obvious that even a blind man can see it. It will just get worse and worse until no one is left but the foolers and the fools.

My sense about this is that they are only holding the door open so their big customers can get out before its to late. This is understandable since the 'system' is the only thing we have and without it we are REAL TOAST. They are doing a salvage operation so that hopefully they will be able to have a basis to start from again.

Whatever you do have the strength of your convictions. Maintain at least some physical ( 5 - 10% of your portfolio? ) in case thing do fit the shan.

Allan ( USA ) , Crystal Ball, keva, High Rise: thanks for the reply

BGO is down because I bought it several weeks ago!
SLAP!
ECO is down because I bought it last week!
SLAP! SLAP!
XAU down again.

Greek market down dramatically.... Sri Lankian market crashing....
will the misery never end for those poor buggers holding now
worthless paper.

The tsunami is crashing over my magarita.... agh, the misery of it all

Date: Tue Nov 11 1997 16:23
et ( bare bottoms ) ID#225297:

George - Congratulations on predicting every day for the last month that a rally was imminent and finally getting it right today. Of course, I now see you are couching all predictions with a disclaimer, which is wise, since gold is going to $300 soon, very soon.

Whether you recognize this change in your posting style or not, the air really got taken out of you from the beginning of the year until now, didn't it? Hesitation kills, George. Are you afraid you're going to miss it like all the others? Then keep predicting day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day.

Stephen - A simple question. Did you or did you not post under something other than Stephen Mooney in September or October at this site?

I'm sure the newcomers here would appreciate an honest answer.

Highrise ... one of the two of us needs to SELL ( so the market will go UP!!! )

Recent news from the mideast:

RUSSIA, IRAN EXPAND OIL COOPERATION. Speaking after talks with
visiting Iranian Oil Minister Bijan Namdar Zanganeh in Moscow on 15
November, Gazprom Deputy Director Valerii Remizov said Gazprom
and the Iranian government have set up five working groups to
expand cooperation. IRNA the next day reported that Russia and Iran
also signed a memorandum of understanding on jointly developing
several Iranian gas fields, according to Reuters. LF

DUMA REJECTS USE OF FORCE AGAINST IRAQ. The State Duma on 14
November voted by 259 to 37 with two abstentions to adopt a
resolution calling on Yeltsin to pressure the UN Security Council to lift
its sanctions against Iraq and opposing the use of military force
against Iraq, Russian media reported. Duma International Affairs
Committee Chairman Vladimir Lukin, who had submitted a less
strongly-worded draft, termed the resolution counter-productive.
First Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said it contained
inaccuracies, but he too rejected the use of force, arguing that a
"constructive way of implementing the [council's] decisions on Iraq's
disarmament must be found," Interfax reported. Speaking by
telephone on 16 November with U.S. President Clinton, Yeltsin said
Russia will take "all necessary measures" to facilitate a peaceful
settlement of the Iraqi crisis. LF

Intra-Day charts displaying the days price trend of the most representative of financial assets and real assets. One may thus appreciate the day's relative price movement of DJIA, S&P, NASDAQ, DJUA, versus XAU, HUI, GOLD, SILVER PLATINUM & PALLADIUM. In effect you are on the "virtual trading floor" of each:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/intra-day.html

Violent crime rate lowest in more
than 20 years.

November 15, 1997
Web posted at: 2:00 p.m. EST ( 1900 GMT )

WASHINGTON ( CNN ) -- Violent
crimes in the United States fell to a
record low in 1996 according to a
report by the Justice Department
released on Saturday.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9711/15/crime.rate/index.html


11/15/97 -- 1:06 PM
President halts import of assault weapons

LAS VEGAS ( AP ) - President Clinton halted importation of Uzis and other military-style
assault weapons that he said have been getting around a federal ban because they were altered to pass as sport guns.

``We didn't fight as hard as we have ... only to let a few gun manufacturers sidestep our laws and undermine our progress,'' the president said in his weekly radio address. ``We've banned these guns because you don't need an Uzi to go deer hunting, and everyone knows it.''

These guns `exist for no reason but to inspire fear and wreak deadly havoc on our streets,' Clinton said.

 `I'm not going to let people overseas turn our streets into battle zones where gangs are armed like they were guerrilla warriors halfway around the world if I can stop it,'' he declared to applause. 

This year, firearms importers have obtained permits to ship in nearly 600,000 altered guns, Clinton said, and applications are pending for an additional 1 million. Some 20,000 of the 600,000 weapons already have entered the country.
http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news100v.htm


What is he worried about? The possibility of Baby Boomers in the streets demanding their Social Security and 401Ks be reimbursed?

To those of you that ridicule my commentary. I say once again. The death knell is complete. What is happening around the globe is very simple.

Worry about your precious wallets. What is being done to you is being done in full view. On center stage, right before your very eyes.

Laugh and see your markets rise. Hundreds of millions in misery as you warm your minds with riches. Enjoy.

Remember what Another said. The noones have gold and they care not about your debt.

Remember what I stated. This is not about your wallets.

November 17, 1997
Phelps Dodge sets "permitted""Cobre bid

PHOENIX, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Phelps Dodge Corp said Monday it has proposed proceeding with a "Permitted Bid""for Cobre Mining Co Inc's stock under that company's recently adopted shareholder rights plan. Responding to Cobre's November 14 letter, Phelps Dodge said: "We are pleased that Cobre Mining Company has made a commitment to evaluate all options to maximize shareholder value, and we welcome the opportunity to work with Cobre to
make our offer directly to its shareholders."

In a letter to Cobre, Phelps Dodge said, "We anticipate commencing a "Permitted Bid""to acquire all outstanding capital stock of Cobre Mining ... for a purchase price of US$3.85 per share, payable in cash, as quickly as possible after your execution of this letter." That price is unchanged from Phelps Dodge's prior offer.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/PHELPS-DODGE-SETS-PE.html

November 17, 1997
Southern Mineral to buy Amerac for stock

HOUSTON, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Southern Mineral Corp said Monday it had signed a definitive merger agreement with Amerac Energy Corp under which 2.7 million to 3.3 million Southern Mineral shares will be exchanged for all Amerac shares.

Southern Mineral will also assume Amerac's debt. In a statement, Southern Mineral said the combined companies would have reserves of about 80 billion cubic feet of oil and gas equivalent. They would have operations in Texas and Oklahoma and properties in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Canada and Ecuador.
As of October 31, Amerac had 3,891,981 shares outstanding.
The merger is expected to be completed in early 1998.

We need to buy more! That's it we will buy more and more! MOrE! Let's corner the market, let's buy the entire XAU!!! If Gold just goes up $3 we will make millions, MILLIoNs!!!!
SLAp!SLaP!

THE ANALYTICAL ECONOMIST
A Workaholic Economy
by Paul Wallich

For the first century or so of the industrial revolution, increased productivity led to decreases in working hours. Employees who had been putting in 12-hour days, six days a week, found their time on the job shrinking to 10 hours daily, then finally, to eight hours five days a week. Only a generation ago social planners worried about what people would do with all this new-found free time. In the U.S., at least, it seems they need not have bothered.

Although the output per hour of work has more than doubled since 1945, leisure seems reserved largely for the unemployed and underemployed. Those who work full-time spend as much time on the job as they did at the end of World War II. In fact, working hours have increased noticeably since 1970 -- perhaps because real wages have stagnated since that year.
Bookstores now abound with manuals describing how to manage time and cope with stress.
http://www.uakron.edu/econ/e201/hw/wallich.html

test

Vanishing Jobs

Some business leaders are concerned, but politicians seem strangely deaf to what is likely to be the most explosive issue of the decade.

*****"Will there be a job for me in the new Information Age?"******

This is the question that most worries American voters--and the question that American politicians seem most determined to sidestep. President Bill Clinton warns workers that they will have to be retrained six or seven times during their work lives to match the dizzying speed of technological change. Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich talks about the "end of the traditional job" and advises every American worker to become
his or her own independent contractor.
http://www.mojones.com/MOTHER_JONES/SO95/rifkin.html

HighRise, Thanks for the BGO discussion site. Didn't know it existed.

I have not posted at Kitco since last Monday, except for one
post as "Matson" on Wednesday or Thursday which had absolutely
no impact, drowned out as it was by tolerant1 and Nick's ruminations
on the end of the world. ( Tolerant1 has now admitted, whether
he planned on it originally or not, to wearing the fool's cap.
He thus treats this site as his own private amusement park, apparently. )
I have not had time to go through all this weekend's posts accusing
me of being one person or another, nor of those posts purporting
to be me, nor am I going to, nor am I ever going to. This site has ceased to be relevant. It is now simply a place to come to for a good laugh. There are many things that the newcomers need to be constantly
reminded of, but here are three glaring ones ( if anything, I was
encouraged this weekend by the number of people who called GSC's
and Puetz's and Mooney's and Vronsky's bluff in my absence. One thing they consistently underestimate is the number of detractors they have,
and when they lash out blindly at the two usual suspects ( LGB and
Hepcat ) , they look quite foolish to not only LGB and Hepcat but also
the true posters, and only encourage more people to question their
supposed intelligence ) :

1. With Mooney serving as his own amaneunsis at this site, the
correct history of Kitco will never be recorded. I was not surprised
by his usurping of the laurels on Friday from people like EB, since
he has done it so many times, but by the boldness of it based on
his two meager posts from the Friday before, which to my mind don't
really say anything except "we might be going down", which is not
the stuff for which reporters bent on plagarism would flock to
this site ( please don't flatter yourself and your site too much,
Stephen ) . Anyhow, it doesn't exactly have the bite of "gold to
$300 soon, very soon" from last Monday, which gives both an exact figure and a time frame. To answer Stephen's obvious rebuttal, I would
ask "Stephen, are you saying gold is going to $280, or are you
with Bernatz at $305?, and if $280, when?"

2. With Puetz serving as his own interpreter, he will never admit
to being incorrect on his calls. He now claims that he was advocating
buying silver more than gold ( just ask Eldorado, he says ) . Should
silver tank and gold jump $20 in the next few days, he will undoubtedly
recant and say he was advocating buying gold more than silver.
Regardless, when he posted again and again and again "buy physical
gold and silver" last month, he didn't put the word 'silver' in bold or say "see Eldorado for specifics" in fine print. It's just a
convenient way to wriggle out. I won't address whether you would
have to be "stupid" to not make money on shorting the S&P 500.
I would contend that you would have to be "stupid" to attempt to
do anything with the S&P 500 over the past month unless you were
a day trader. Somehow, I don't think the people sitting at home
on their couch reading the latest installment of the Puetz report
are particularly pleased that the Dow is now back to where it
was before the 'meltdown', nor do I think they became fabulously
wealthy in the interim. Doubtless we will have testimonials
posted over the next month to clear up this issue.

3. As long as the webmaster is offering opinions on the
future direction of gold, this site has no chance of ever
hosting a gathering of unbiased analysts. From its inception,
it has been blatantly pro-gold, even in the face of
overwhelming evidence that gold was a poor investment
in the short term. There was some hope among some of us
that it might change, but it will never change with the
webmaster qua webmaster inserting himself into discussions,
regardless of whether he is 'right' or 'wrong'. It's his
site, he can do what he wishes, but it is a less relevant
site when the illusion of tabula is removed, and the
question of favoritism is raised.

Finally, Byron, thanks for setting them straight over at SI.
( is the rolling discussion temporarily down? ) . Please, though,
make sure Zeev understands that I said $310 starting on
September 23, not around the time it dropped to $310.
I would like to be remembered by someone somewhere as something of
a visionary.

November 17, 1997
Morgan Stanley cuts 1998 copper forecast by 15 cts

NEW YORK, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Morgan Stanley cuts its 1998 copper forecast by 15 cents to 85 cents a lb, pointing out that the higher prices over the previous 10 years stimulated too much growth in capacity.

Its 1999 forecast was reduced by 10 cents to 90 cents a lb, while its 1997 forecast was cut by a cent to 104 cents a lb. "We have had too much of a good thing over the last 10 years in the copper industry, as strong copper prices have finally stimulated too much capacity growth," said Wayne Atwell, metals equities analyst with Morgan Stanley.

He predicted copper supplies, including net imports from the former Eastern Bloc, would grow 4.0 percent in 1998 and 4.1 percent in 1999.

This would result in a net supply surplus of 400,000 tonnes in both 1998 and 1999.The COMEX spot price was 89.40 cents a lb at 1230 EST/1730 GMT.

Sorry gang had to bail on Gold today with 5k loss and feeling lucky at that, what a screwed up market! It will happen I just hope you will be able to hang thru the manipulation long enough to prosper. I will have to wait to get on board after blast off now. I think gold money is going into silver last few days. As close as we can get to real market for now GOOD LUCK to you all. ADIOS

Is the US CB among those selling or proposing to sell bullion? ( I have been
lurking on this excellent site about 6 months..."IV" stands for intrinsic
value.

SKorean won plunges below 1,000 as central bank abandons intervention
SEOUL, Nov 17 ( AFP ) - The South Korean won plunged below the
1,000 mark against the US dollar Monday after the central bank
stepped out of the market, dealers said.
At 2:10 pm ( 0510 GMT ) , the won was quoted at 1,008.60 to the
dollar, its daily permissible low, after opening at 986.00.
Dealers said the central Bank of Korea ( BoK ) suddenly "gave up"
its recent strong intervention, letting the won fall.
The BoK said it "temporarily retreated from intervention" in
order to ease ongoing concerns over the stability of the foreign
exchange market and because of "too strong dollar demand for imports
payments."

Won drags other Asian currencies down, attack feared on HK peg
SINGAPORE, Nov 17 ( AFP ) - The South Korean won plunged past the
1,000 to the dollar level Monday, pulling down other Asian
currencies and raising fears of a new attack on the Hong Kong
dollar's peg to the greenback, dealers said.
The won crashed to an all-time low of 1,008.60 against the
dollar after the central Bank of Korea stopped intervening in the
market without warning.
"We're not sure why they did that, when today the market was not
crashing. We are not clear about what is going on," said a foreign
exchange dealer with a top European bank in Singapore.
It was the first time the won breached the psychological 1,000
barrier, and its closing rate Monday was the lowest permissible
under a daily limit, heralding further pressure when the market
reopens Tuesday.
"It will just get worse," said Tan Kee Wee, a currency analyst
with the United Overseas Bank, one of Singapore's top banks. "Maybe
the won will hit 1,200 before Christmas."


Now we should watch for an accompanying drop in the gold price as more gold is borrowed and sold to cover this lastest squeeze.
Confusion reigns, this is a good sign for the those that wish it.

Steady, in reply to your 11:21, the answer is, very definitely, yes!
You say that you invest in gold through options, stocks and physical metal. You do not mention futures or futures options. Since declaring my bearishness on gold some months ago, I have profited very handsomely by shorting the stuff through the futures markets. I believe others like RJ have done the same. I do not know about Hepcat, since I am unsure whether he follows his own advice ( which, you must admit, has been uncannily accurate ) to the extent of outlaying money on it.
The problem with many regular posters to this site is that they let their hearts rule their heads where gold is concerned. Most acknowledge the obvious, ie. that gold is in a savage bear market, yet they see each new low as a further buying opportunity, believing that "dollar cost averaging" will eventually pull them through when the long-awaited surge in gold finally occurs. If you wish to trade with your head, there are two points to remember. First, if you wish to accumulate physical metal, buy ONLY when this market has reversed, and is very firmly in an uptrend. So called "dollar cost averaging" is simply a losing strategy in a protracted bear market. Second, if you wish to trade derivatives, or trade short-term, trade with the trend. The trend has been ( since the beginning of this year at least ) , is, and will remain for the short term, negative. It may be that nowadays there are too many alternative investments accessible to the small investor for a resurgence in demand for gold to occur easily. Think about the last few months. Not a significant drop in the Dow, nor a crisis in the Asian markets, nor rumblings of conflict in the Middle East, could stem gold's steady decline. The central banks appear to have recognised this truth, and, while they have contributed to gold's decline, they have not caused it. In retrospect, The Australian CB's move to sell a large proportion of its gold holdings was very intelligent ( despite the outcry to the contrary on this site ) in view of the subsequent decline. The Aussies could buy the whole lot back a darn sight cheaper now. Of course, they don't have to - they can just dig some more up if they need to.
Steady, if you want to profit from PM's, you must let sentiment go, and trade with your brains !!

Amidst the currency chaos, mounting debt debris and stock market turmoil ravaging all-Asia, a voice emerges which goes to the core of the problems. John Kutyns observations and insights ring with Churchillian logic and clarity. In painful detail he paints the problems plaguing Asia... and with oracle eyes he foresees the havoc to be wrought before economic stability may be restored. His poignant observations regarding Japans forced action in US Treasuries and Gold will soon prove to be prophetic:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/kutyn111597.html

D.A. - As a gentleman who has admitted errors in the past,
it is incumbent upon you to post on this site at your
next available opportunity "I made a mistake when I advocated getting in when gold was $320, and I made a bigger mistake when I continued
to support this decision when gold went to $310 and $300".
You have become decidedly less civil to me as gold donned
the concrete boots, and I realize it is hard to separate
business from civility when one of your investments goes
awry, but this has nothing to do with maintaining artificial
civility and everything to do with giving people a push
in the right direction, something you have the power to do
since people tend to follow your lead. Oh, and I'm sorry
for making such a horrendous prediction as Dow to 8300 by 10/23/97.
I admit I was incorrect, and have admitted I was incorrect
to everyone who asked, and even to those who didn't.
See how easy it is?

testing always testing always testing always testing

visionary you got to be kidding

arogant
painful
repetative
churlish
antogonistic
disdainful
detractable
idiotic

simply put

( Hightlights from news article in local paper )

--There's a difference between official inflation and workings man's inflation, says financial columnist Malcolm Berko. Inflation defined by government measure, for the benefit of politicians seeking reelection, is just 2.5% to 3% a year but working people likely are seeing their costs of living rise by 6.5% to 7%. For retirees, real inflation probably is in the order of 10% to 12% annually. There are a lot of things not covered by the way the gov measures inflation. For example, they do not count costs such as higher turnpike fees, real estate tax, health care, utility service, dry cleaning, car repairs, bank service.---

1 ) The Nikkei "rally" is nothing but an injection of money by the Japanese government,banks to save face prior to their accounting cycle. Accordingly, I predict the Nikkei will go back down tonight.

2 ) If the manipulated press can continue to "convince" the people that gold is worthless, it will be "worthless", and the fly larvae who pose as sage bankers and Wall Street financial masters will have succeeded in world control at last: there will be never again an "honest" money.

3 ) The next logical step is to outlaw ALL financial transactions in anything but the fake banker's "money" ( SDR, EMU, Dollar ) . Currently, Federal Reserve Notes bear the words "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private". Soon it will read "This note is the ONLY legal tender for all debts. Violators will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law".

4 ) It is simple logic that ANY stock sector, having been driven low, is then exploited for gain. Wall Street could careless what the stock sector is - only that it be at historical lows for them to quitely accumulate and then sell as they instil in public mind what a great deal it is. That the Precious Metals sector has been at 12 years lows for many months now and HAS NOT been so exploited confirms that the market is manipulate. It's like asking Great White Sharks to ignore a lacerated, bleeding whale. It just doesn't happen unless some SERIOUS scheme is going on. Eric Bartel, feel free to wade in on this point and comment.

5 ) Non-gold precious metals ( Silver, Platinum, Paladium, etc. ) are not held in sufficient hoards by central banks to dump on the world markets to effect control as has been done with gold. Therefore, they are controlled by inducing the producers to engauge in diasterous forward sales, and by seeming manipulation of COMEX NYMEX wharehouse stocks. I applaud those here who put together the Wall Street bombing of two weeks ago, COMEX's delisting of the Swiss Bank for "less than accurate" reporting of deliverable inventories of Au and Ag. To my mind, the bombing was an attempt to delay and possibly coverup distruction of data relating to the gross reporting shortage of the wharehouse's silver and gold stocks. The imaginary wharehouse silver and gold quantities seem to have been used in a kind of COMEX "fractional reserve" scheme whereby large numbers of contracts were written and sold ( shorted? ) against metal that was not there. How are these futures based on non-existent metal going to be rectified? One must wonder: Are the remaining COMEX wharehouses so inflated with non-existant stocks?

6 ) With gold at $300/oz - and the continued adverse affect on gold/silver mining equites from forward sales as well, one has to wonder why we have not seen merger and consolidation of this sector much as we have seen in the telecommunications and military sectors. How can these companies hope to survive? Again, this is only OBVIOUS, yet it does not happen. Mergers in the gold mining industry would draw public attention and so one must ask: are these companies REALLY trying to merge, only to be denied funding by the banks?

7 ) Finally: WHO is buying all this gold at $325 ... $310 ... $300 an ounce?

TESTING -Marv Albert What about those Gold Nylons?

Gosh, jolly old St. Nick, who's being
naughty and who's being nice?

Don't forget to add "much better off
financially listening to my advice than
listening to yours" to the list

Your attacks wouldn't have a thing to do
with the current directions of the markets,
would they, Nick? I would hate to think
that you were letting a temporary setback
influence personal interaction with people
who warned against your delusions months ago.

Remember "Don't take us down under with you,
Nick"? You were motoring around in a swill
of your own design. Where are we one month
later, Nick?

Where is the Dow?
Where is gold?

Let the numbers guide your answers, Nick.
Look at your charts.

OK, events of recent week's have proven the validity of the recommendations I've been trying to make re Gold coins. Namely, that you should buy the Gold St. Gaudens double Eagles from the early 1920's in lieu of the common modern bullion coins.

As Gold continues it's free fall, the Numismatic common $20 pieces, have held firm in price and now, are on the rise!! In the face of falling Gold prices!! How can this be?

Simple. Firstly, The "Saint", is a highly prized collector coin, though of rather large mintage and readily available, it is considered the most beautiful coin ever minted by most Numismaticists.

Secondly, it has historically outperformed Gold bullion coins in both rising and falling markets. In rising markets it rises further, and faster, than bullion, exponentially. A conservative form of leverage using physical coin in your posession. VERY attractive.

In falling markets ( as we have now ) the "Saint" resists value drops, as it hits it's Numismatic floor. Remember, NO MORE "Saints" will EVER be minted. Bullion coins on the other hand, are minted in the millions yearly, with virtually unlimited production capacity to meet demand.

Thirdly, when congress and our pal Roosevelt required U.S. citizens to turn in their Gold ( isn't it ironic that we now are minting a GOLD commemorative coin for Roosevelt! ) , anyway, when the Gold coins were called in, guess what? Numismatic coins were EXEMPTED from recall. The folks who had the foresight to but "Saints" when Gold bullion could not be owned by U.S. citizens, are the ONLY major group of long term gold coin investors who really made a good profit during our century.

Gold's price upon becoming available as bullion to the American public once again, after a year or so of stabilization ( say late 1974 ) , has been a losing investment for any buy and hold investor since that time, when you look at it's purchasing power relative to such essentials as Housing, food, transportation, insurance, gasoline, and energy prices.

Fourthly, with the "Saint's" you hold beauty and history in your hand. Pride and enjoyment of owndership, an intangible asset, true, but of value nevertheless.

Fithly, I made a number of calls this morning to coin dealers that I work with frequently, to get quotes on American Eagles, Maple Leafs, and Saint Gaudens. Here's what I found. Contrary to what's been posted on this forum recently, virtually ALL the dealers had the common bullion coins in stock and ready for delivery at $318 to $323 price range. ( less for the lowly Kruggerand of course ) No shortage, and no problems with delivery.

But the "Saint Gaudens"?? Most of the dealers who advertise them have run out of inventory, and those that DID have them had RAISED their prices about $10.0 a coin from where they were 3 weeks ago ( last time I checked ) during a time when Gold has taken another big dive! When I inquired about this, the dealers all said that the "Saints" are in such demand that they have to charge more because it costs them more to get ahold of them.

Hmmm, a Gold coin that rises when Gold falls? And rises MORE than bullion when Gold rises? And has a firm floor? You see why I recommend Numismatic coins. I have the exact same recommendation for Silver. Skip the "junk" silver and spend a little more to get Morgan Silver dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves. The same principles apply, albeit at a diminished level ( due to the many millions of those coins minted )

That's my case for Numismatic Gold. Personally, I'd put most of my physical holdings in it, with some diversification into common bullion for liquidity purposes. That's what I'm doing and so far, having bought into Silver at $4.20 to $4.40 in July, we're already looking at big gains. The "Saints" I've bought this year are in the money even with Gold's price falling! Consider it Kitcoites....

New & Improved LGB

Observer, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you eh?

323132: You stated, "Oh, and I'm sorry for making such a horrendous prediction as Dow to 8300 by 10/23/97." But wasn't it Hepcat who made that prediction?

LGB-Take your Gold Coins And bars If you have any?Tie them with some dead skunks and you can smell the stink from the South Pacific to the shores of North America.May you and Gold REST IN PEACE.Amen and Happy Trails Till we meet again.

I vicariously followed a stock called Fairmile Gold for the last year.

It went from a high of $7.00 down to its current ask of 30 cents.
It didn't drop all at once like Bre-X, it took over 1-1/2 years
and a lot of "smart" money with it.

At every 10 cent drop, someone diehard would invariably come on and
emphatically state "This is the bottom, it can't go down any farther" and follow it up with the question "who is buying?"

"Who is buying?" is irrelevant. When a stock it going down, it
de facto indicates more people are selling than are buying. If
I found out that the Saudi's bought all of Australia's gold
at $350, $340, and $330, I would have no qualms saying "The
Saudi's were stupid. They could have had it at $320, $310,
and $305."

At 25 cents, there are STILL people at the Fairmile site saying
"The smart money is buying and I'm holding on."
If this is true and the people posting this truly believe it,
then both the buyers and the posters are worthy of our
pity, not our admiration.

CB - If you don't know why I am entitled
to post as Hepcat, you haven't been doing
your due diligence at this site.

The APEC ( Asia Pacific Economic Council ) conference is scheduled for this week in Vancouver, BC, Canada. There will no doubt be some last minute "window dressing" ( i.e. Nikki +8% overnight ) to avoid potential embarrassment during the conference. Expect more upward direction of these indicies this week.

LGB -- Just tuned in and saw your post on the 'Saints'. For gold, I wouldn't be able to disagree. In fact, that's how I hold my physical gold. Not because I 'enjoy' having to pay the premium on the pieces, but because of their rarity and the knowledge that those kind of pieces DO go up first and DO hold their 'desirability' more so than bullion. Also, the premium will only get larger and larger so there should be an extra built-in profit should one decide to sell for reasons other than 'insurance'. Good catch! I will also say that if their prices are beginning the elevator ride north, the time for the bullion rise should not be real far off.

13, I read your 21:58 post of last evening, re Bob Brinker's show. I listen to good old Brinker every week, and heard the call you referred to;

( Quotes below from 13's post for Kitcoites.. )

Q: What about metals?
A: ( Taken partially out of context ) Metals for losers ... gold bugs masochists ... Dollar is extremely strong currency ... Mighty
Dollar ...Anchor... dollar backed by worlds strongest economy... the american worker ... other patriotic junk ... Au &Ag
complete unadultered nightmare ( since 1980? ) 

The caller pressed his case. Mr Brinker said he was a comedian.


LGB Comment. What did Brinker say that wasn't in fact true? This is why GoldBugs are so derided. When confronted with facts they pretend the facts are somehow all fictional. Brinker was right in every comment he made during that call. Does this mean that someday stocks won't drop and Gold rise? Of course not! Nevertheless, truth is truth. Claiming a "debt bubble" renders the Dollar, or stock gains as worthless, and Gold as some paragon of investment virtue, is just so much mental masterba***.


P.S. to all, I did NOT make last night's "LGB" posts of ID# 319435. I have only TWO ID#'s. Work & home, day & night, rich and poor, etc etc.

Common date Saints are OK ( yes, they are gold and the mint isn't making them any more ) , but there are other issues that are much less common and give you more numismatic "bang" for your buck. If you like Saints, then the 1907 High Relief with Roman Numerals ( mintage only 11,250 ) should appeal to you at only $6000 for MS60 ( Unc ) . Mint State 63-66 gold dollars, quarter eagles ( $2 1/2 ) , half eagles ( $5 ) , and eagles ( $10 ) are selling for a song compared to their 1989 highs. The same could be said for pre-1933 US gold and silver commemoratives; some are 80% or more off their highs. Old Spanish Trail is one of the key issues...only $1100 or so for MS66! 19th century type and proof coins are also a bargain.

Poorboys, your 13:54 is baffling, could you elaborate? I'm not a diehard Goldbug ( as if I have to say it ) , and own no Gold bars ( or dead skunks ) .

To Kitco Technical Types:

The Montly Technical Association charts have now been updated. Includes Monthly Gold chart.

http://www.mta-usa.org/charts/charts.html

Would someone please explain Hepcat's 13:57 post to me? I don't get it.

CB, with all due respect, the coins you mention are not for the "average" Gold investor. I can't disagree with you that all the coins you mentioned are great buy's presently, and have the potential for explosive gains.

The problem is that those coins should simply not be purchased by investors who don't have some relatively extensive numismatic expertise. You have to be able to spot counterfits, know who to deal with, understand the market intimately, etc etc. For the "average" investor who isn't a Numismatist, and isn't interested in becoming one, common date "Saints" would be the way to go.

LGB -- Only ONE problem with 'confidence' games: They ALL come to an end! In this case, the paper 'confidence' scam might be more likened to the Tower of Babel. First you build it to the sky......

To Oliver: Didn't understand your posting about KWG Resources - Chart shows a price of about US$20 in the spring of 1996. It can be bought today for about US$ 69 cents. Is this another BREX?

Check out CNNfn -- "GOLDBUG BITES HONG KONG`" 2:09 est

Dearest Test: You are correct. You are the man/woman or maybe simply a test looking for direction.

However, I give way on the posting board to your obvious intellect. Please continue to tell all who look at Kitco how to make money.

I sit here with my nose on, I am the clown.

The floor is all yours.

Puetz my new friend. What happened to the Friday/Monday Full Moon crash we were all looking forward too? What do you see for the rest of the week? How come these "false" rally's keep the DOW at fantastic gains on the year during a "Bear" market? ( Though I'm MIGHTY disappointed that the gains havn't been 400% yet this year as Kitcoites say us stock bugs demand! Oh wait, I'm on the sidelines..so I don't care! )

OK, not needling ya, just want to hear more rationale for bearish sentiment. Asia appears to be in a state of orgasmic Euphoria rather than a free fall from banking/deflation woes.....

Would someone please explain Hepcat's 13:57 post to me? I don't get it.

Don'r be over-looking the other golden stuff out there. Grains making a turn!

I appreciate the merits and civility of your ( 14:25 ) reply. I know it's none of my business, but why don't you quit needling Puetz? He's as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours.

Eldorado, re your 14:26 I respectfully disagree. I hate to sound sappily syrup sugar like in my patriotism, and confidence in the American citizenry, but I must again take the position that it's "confidence" that built this country on a wing and a prayer.

"Confidence" produces something from nothing. It drives Enterprenuers to invent, produce, build, work miracles. They have faith in themselves, their ideas, their fellow man. Faith in the average citizen's ability to prevail and improve in a free democracy. Faith in the history they can look back on, replete with errors and triumphs and learnign from same. Faith in idealism, pushing the limits and boundries, ignoring cynical naysayers of all stripes and making it happen.

It's borrowed money based on human "confidence" that built the greatest economy and prosperity of all time. I put more stock in that than in an inert metal. It's worth more, it's been proven to be more valuable, and it will always be so in the long run.

( Sung to the tune of America the beautiful... let the snide, country hating, nagative, naysaying, comments begin! )

PS: Bob Brinker RULES!

Idle musing... If we take the 1982 bottom ( $296 ) as one shoulder, and the 1985 bottom ( $285 +/- ) as the head, and the 1997 bottom ( $300 ) to form an upside-down head-and-shoulders pattern with the neckline ( obviously ) in the neighborhood of $505; once we break through the neckline, do you realize the implications? They say the length ( either in time or in a point-and-figure chart ) of a pattern predicts its objective. Hmmmmm.

when are you going to start living in the real world!

D.A. has had a standing offer of 1 oz of gold for 6 months. Neither

you or any of the other losers on this site has had the balls to

take the bet. Right or wrong D.A.'s money was on the table. He's a

player that still is playing. You are a leach. You and the other

losers in the world stand in the shadows and watch the players.

Every now and then you step into the light and mouth something stupid

to prove your manhood, to prove you are living, you prove you are a

player! You're not a player, go back to the shadows, to your world

of make believe. to you other leaches out there: your not fooling

anyone the eye in the sky sees all.

Puetz and I patched things up yesterday. I'm not needling him, just holding his feet to the fire on his predictions. He is after all, an analyst with a Newsletter, and many follow such folks closely in making their investment strategy decisions.

Extraordinary claims ( ie Full Moon market crashes ) require extraordinary evidence and extraordinary scrutiny. Putting such claims under close scrutiny is the best way to test the validity ( or lack thereof ) of the claims being made. "Bad News Bears" and "Crash" theorists have been misleading the gullible for many years. And cost some investors a real fortune in missed gains or outright losses. Consequently, we need to look at the validity and historical accuracy of such in the harsh light of honest reality. IMNHO.

I have foresworn personally insulting remarks to my friend Puetz, but will continue to look at his claims very closely!

P.S. NO MARKET CRASH IN SIGHT FOLKS!!!

CB - The post was a call for D.A. to rescind his
failed gold call. As an example of how easy it
was to apologize, I gave him an example of a bad
call I made and apologized for. D.A. posted an
acrid "gosh, how could you be so stupid" upbraiding
a few weeks back so I wouldn't get too big for
my britches. I am returning the favor.
D.A. didn't make the bad call on the Dow, I did.
I didn't make the bad call on gold, D.A. did.
Selby and GSC and others have asked all along
if he was still holding, and he was adamant that
he was, and posted a lot of technical information
indicating that gold was a good buy. At this point,
I want him to say ( if he is still holding ) that he
is holding out of pride or beligerance or because
he has a lot of money or because he doesn't care
where gold is in the next six months or six years or
because he like cheerleading for gold. Whatever,
just so his investment doesn't continue to
hold the patina of "wise short-term play" for
the novitiates.

Tolerant1 - I have been saying for two years on this
site how not to lose money ( gold ) and how to make
money ( Dow ) . Just because you don't want to hear
it, don't say I haven't been saying it.

CB: The game being played is one of bankers and politicians. Nothing more, nothing less. I stick to what I said when I stated that the market move in Japan was the death knell.

I do not think the charts reflect what will happen when gold makes it's obvious spike up. I think $505.00 will be a blip on the radar screen.

I remember back in 1985 that gold got down to $285-$290 neighborhood. Now twelve years later with the inflation we've seen you'd think it would not be possible for gold to get this low. Something is definately afoot. Two years later in ~1987 gold was pushing $500. Will gold come back, you bet. When, we just have to figure out what the puppet master's plan is. Remmber it took gold quite a while to take off the 1929 crash. I predict that gold will continue to decline till spring. Then we'll have our turn around. Why next spring? Thats when I see the turmoil in asia and south america hitting our market. Also Clinton should be in a lot of hot water by then. The big boys just have to be salivating at the price of gold right now, and what P.M. stocks will do once this pendulum changes direction.

Well said!

Mikeharry 14:28 -- Let me try to post the URL for CNNfn. Here goes ...

http://www.cnnfn.com/hotstories/bizbuzz/wires/9711/17/gold_wg/

"Well I been down so god damn long it looks like up to me"

Dearest Test: I have not been interested in the stock market. I have been making money in the metal stocks for roughly 6 months. One does not have to see the major price moves to make money in the metals arena.

In addition, I have been purchasing the metals as a frozen savings account and I believe in the near term, starting from six months ago, that is a wise position.

I see short term political gain slaughtering the very markets that achieve the myopic greed of the politician. There are many stages, which lead to the position the markets are currently in.

The play is in its final and inevitable closure.

Pardon me, I have to buff my clown shoes now.

( L ) icking ( G ) ibberish ( B ) arrator-The explanation is immaterial and impervious to any further engagement in tribal pagoda.

Vegas - I have taken bets on this site TNTC
( too numerous to count ) , none of which have
been to my advantage, all of which have been
defaulted on when I won ( with the exception
of Blutarsky, and, finally, grudgingly,
after months of plodding, Mooney, who still
sprinkled some sarcastic nonsense about the Dow
and "buy on the dips" in with his admission
just to show he wasn't truly able to take
his medicine like a man. When D.A. posted
his original proposal, I think it was something
like gold to $400 before gold to $300 at a time
when gold was at $335. I said, well, you're
talking about something that hasn't happened
in four years versus something that just happened
last year, so why don't we make it a little
more reasonable and say gold to $300 before
gold to $600. He did not take me up on this bet.

You can read this one of two ways:

1. D.A. isn't a "player".
2. D.A. is smart enough not to take up every
bet from every goofball that comes along.

Do you remember that "bet" that Scotty said
I had made about gold would be "exactly"
$325.00 on 7/29/97, when in reality I gave
anyone who wanted to take me up on this bet
a $5 cushion? Do you expect me to take up
every bet, no matter how ludicrous, just to
prove I am a "player"? Does the same thus
apply to you, Vegas? I'll bet you posting
privileges for a year that gold will close
tomorrow somewhere between $200 and $500/ounce.
You have to take everything below $200
and above $500. Do you want this bet, Vegas,
or are you too chicken?

test

LGB -- You are thinking of the days when the government went into debt to fight a war. Debt that used to be paid off. Todays government can't even live in a peace time and whittle on the national debt! No. We have to have other nations buy our debt. I view that as being just 'swell'! I view that as trouble in the making and I view that as no longer being able to control your own destiny as a country. This really breeds 'confidence'!

As for continuously rolling over the debt, think of all those who are yet to come, who will be born into being a virtual slave of having to make someone elses debt payment. Now THAT certainly breeds 'confidence' in the system, doesn't it.

The confidence game we are discussing is no more, or less, than any other pyramid sceme in existence; Debt built upon debt built upon debt. Promises, promises. Hope your children enjoy it.

Ted @ 15:05 -Well at least you got that one right! :- ) Did you check your mail yet today?
ALL - I bet I could stop posting for SIX months and 'ol John the testy test Hepcat will STILL be distorting things I said a year ago. The guy loves me - What more can I say?

for buying gold as an investment:

"Gold - the frozen savings account"

I don't know of any savings account where I have
to pay to keep my investment protected ( or do
you wrap up your gold and put it in your freezer? )
and receive a statement at the end of every month
that says I have lost another 3% of my original
deposit. This is almost as good as:

"Gold - the insurance policy that hasn't paid off
in eighteen years but that you don't lose completely,
just in a 30-60% chunk.

Test -- Three things: 1 ) Buy paper. 2 ) Get a new handle. 3 ) Find somewhere else to 'test' at.

Hi test

Pegasas Gold just got decimated. Does anyone have any news?

Stephen, I reposted in their entirety the two posts
from November 7 you referred to in giving yourself
credit for your outstanding "third shoe drop" call
last Friday. Were their others I missed? Did I
post something other than what you yourself posted?
Are you saying you didn't post these?

Your "eye-rolling" defense is wearing thin, Stephen.
Especially since you have been on the wrong end of
things for so long, and you never have anything of
substance when you counterattack. Stephen, where
will gold go now? The site depends on you. Newspaper
reporters everywhere depend on you. $280 or $305 or
something else? When? Stephen, don't leave us
hanging. Decisions have to be made based on what
you say.

Dearest Test: I have neither lost 30 or 60 percent on my frozen savings account. And I am doing quite well in the metal stock arena.

I appreciate your concern.

Thank you.

I will be in Seattle ( SeaTac area ) Nov. 20,21,22,23. If there are any Kitcoites in the Seattle area, maybe we could meet over a cup of coffee. Drop me a line.

PGU off 60% BGO and ECO both off about 15%. Iwas told PGU closed a mine

XYE, here is my answer to your question,

I agree with you,this stock had been crushed in the duldrum
recently.BUT...
The fundamentals did not changed.

They are going into production for the equivalent of Cambior.
They are planning nickel production.
They are drilling for diamonds.
But they are out of fashion... for the time being.
Have a look on the Company Site. Do your own DD.
IMHO the Shares are dirt cheep.
http://www.kwg.com

IF YOUR LAZY AND HAVE NO BRAINS TO INVEST, THEN BUY GOLD. I'VE SEEN YOUR POSTS AND ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG ALL THE TIME, EVERY SINGLE TIME. TO MAKE MONEY YOU NEED CHARACTER NONE OF YOU POSSESS. ANOTHER, G. COLE, JFT
PUETZ, CHEESEBRAIN, ELDO, AND ALL THE REST OF YOU ARE
"CLOWNS" WHO POSSESS NO TALENT AT ALL.

Horseman: Here is all you have to know in para 2. I believe there is more information available but I've lost track of it.
http://www.canoe.ca/FP/nov15_goldhitsth.html

Horseman -- It's LGB's confidence-in-debt game that did it in. Too much debt and no way to pay it. I'd say that it got a vote of 'no-confidence'!

All: Bart Kitco told us about a month ago that gold was forming a bottom.

Guess we didn't know how "hard" that bottom was going to be.

I wonder how many more gold producers will go belly up before we have our wild ride up.

Nearly twenty years down!

Would be nice to have WD Gann to tell us what to expect on the dizzying way back up when this "baby" finally goes!

We must be patient - like the Roths.

More good and bad news -

Good news first - Our discussion group has become really popular. The
number of postings has grown rapidly just over the last few months.The
number of requests for the messages posted has grown even more.

More good news - We're going to begin a password registration system as
has been suggested so often. Also we're setting up a search engine ( for
real this time ) that will quickly find words from postings going back to
April 1996.

Bad news now - The demand for bandwidth far exceeds what our ISP is able
to provide without additional costs. We're moving the discussion group
to new ISP who supplies bandwidth cheaper, but it is still costly. This
site has lately been serving up at least 500 megs of data transfer
daily. On the one of the days of higher gold price volatility the demand
for data nearly hit 1 gig. Splitting the days into three, and then into
six time slices was only marginally effective in reducing bandwidth
consumption.

OK here's the bad news finally: In order to keep this service running we
have to make some changes. Free access will continue for everyone who
views the messages using the "short-text" option. That won't change. But
what's being considered is charging a fee for the ability to view a full
day in full text mode. The total charges would have to cover all of the
bandwidth costs. Any extra would be re-invested in site development.

Another way to get around this would be if anyone with an internet host
would be willing to allow our full text discussion to reside on their
server. We could provide the links such that there would be no
noticeable difference to users accessing the information.

This would be a good time to send me your comments and ideas
( bkitner@kitco.com ) since no final decision has been made.

If you're having technical difficulies accessing now from the new
location describe the problem in an email to mt_le@kitco.com

Horseman: Read the whole article its all there.

Tol1 - You are exactly the reason why this site has
become irrelevant. When I posted as "Matson" last
week requesting that we have a FAQ ( frequently asked
questions ) list which gave metals dealers names and
phone numbers so that we wouldn't have to repeat
this information every day, you posted not thirty minutes later
a list of your favorite precious metals dealers,
exactly what I stated we should have a FAQ for.
When I saw this, I thought you either:

A. Were incredibly stupid, since you posted exactly what
I requested you not post again and again
B. Envisioned yourself as outrageously funny, which
you have stated before and since you see as your role
on this site.

I noticed you also availed yourself of the opportunity
this weekend to post your favorite PM dealers two or three
additional times. The fact that you are trying to engage
me in a silly tete-a-tete regardless of what I say ( where
did I say you lost 30-60% of your investment? Where did I
say I was concerned for you? ) indicates you are either:

A. Terribly lonely ( the number of times you post a day
makes this quite likely )
B. Terribly witty. I will allow the other frequent
posters here to attest to your knee-slapping humor.
Your gold at $500 and Dow at 4000 by 12/15 is a good start.

WHAT NOW CLOWNS. GO GET A JOB AND GET TO WORK LIKE THE REST OF US. DUMB SUCKERS

Bart: Thank you Bart Kitner - I would be glad to pay for this service. Unfortunately I have no server to offer. Sorry I mispelled your name.

Millionaire: Are you telling us that the weathiest family in the world -- the Rothschilds -- don't know how to make money? There is a time to invest ( most of the time ) , and there is a time to invest in gold/gold stocks/natural resources ( some of the time ) if you expect to keep what you have made. If you don't see this you will not be a millionaire very long.

Unless of course, you know how to prevent the Kondratiev wave cycle. Even the Rothschilds cannot do this.

Dearest Test: I don't care what you think of me as long as you are thinking of me.

It is appreciated.

GET A LIFE FOOL. YOUR NET WORTH = SQUAT. GET A JOB.

LGB: Mr. brinker made fun of him. I think a good investment advisor would ask why the caller felt that way and devise a plan to suit his needs. So the caller felt a market crash was at hand. Well, do we have a time frame? Maybe we could invest in metals in a particular way until a particular time or circumstance. The caller might feel comfortable with risking 10% to hedge against a crash.

The extent one makes fun of others is a measure of how uncomfortable they are with their self or beliefs.

Whats not true? The stated idea that AMERICANS are better. At what? Killing her own citizens? We do have the best modern propaganda machine. We have a superbly uneducated popoulation. ( We think that condoms that have intrinsic pores of 5 microns will stop an ADIS virus that is 50 times smaller at 0.1 micron. )

Mr. Brinker himself says the index PE ratios are at or near all time highs. Does he ever answer the question of what happens after these highs are made? Historically they revese sharply.

I like Mr. Brinker; he is probably a wonderful grandpa. I do think he has a blind spot or 2. Don't we all?

JTF WHO'S GAME DO YOU THINK YOUR PLAYING. YOU AS JTF AND ANOTHER IS GETTING SICK. WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOUR BLUFFING.

Bart: Maybe you really should change the name of this site to:

"Gold Group Therapy for Investors and Market Analysts".

Some really touchy people out there!

YOUR BRAIN HAS BEEN PICKLED. GO SOAK YOUR HEAD AND FLUSH IT.

Millionaire: What don't you tell us the truth, and tell us how much you lost -- good for the soul, you know. Anger gets you knowwhere.

WE will all see the clutter of daily inanities reduced sharply if we Bart ever introduces a registration system. :- )

Looks like the Dow has failed in its attempt to close above the key 7700 level. Dow now up 125 for the day, 40 points down from its high for the day.

If the Dow can't hold on to 7700, can 6700 be
far away? In the true Kitco tradition, can someone
take what is very bullish news and make it bearish?
C'mon, now. Gentlemen, start your engines.

...millionaire must have lost a sh*tload -- he cant even afford to fix his CAPS-LOCK key...

SO KNUCKLEHEADS WHEN IS THE STOCKMARKET CRASH AND WHEN IS YOUR PRECIOUS METALS GOING NORTH. JUST AS I THOUGHT NONE OF YOU HAVE A POT TO PISS IN.

you already beat everyone else to it

Oh, woe is us. With the Dow unable
to hold the 7700 level, I predict
that all of the paper gains made
in the last 60 years will be wiped
out at tomorrow's open. Plus, gold
will jump to unprecedented levels,
easily up to $306.50. We are so
blessed to be alive at a time like
today, on the cusp of a major crash
which is clear from my charts, showing
if Venus approached its apogee during
a waning Moon when the Dow failed
to hold on to 7700, even if it only
closed 2 points below 7700 and the
amount of shares trades towards the
end of the session was negligible,
so it wasn't like there was a concerted
push to attempt to keep it above 7700,
we would see parousia. Glory to gold in the
highest.

Stephen - Don't tarry. Let's get your
prediction for the papers. As far as
registration eliminating the nonsense,
you're right as long as it's done correctly.
But I still feel like the way it will be
set up, you'll be able to continue
posting under three different handles.

Never been a fan of registration but if we have it, can we please also have a way to prevent posers from posting as handles other than their own? There are a lot of phony "LGB's" out there, and a lot of folks that accuse the "real" LGB of being Karlito, Gloomy Gus, etc.

Also will we be held to a higher standard of dialogue? Yes I know I've been a "bad boy" at times, but I still feel that certain posters here can't "Tolerate" ( no pun intended ) differing points of view without resorting to extremely pejorative personal insults. ( A habit I have now gievn up for lent of course! )

Yes Hep, with the DOW only 1000% above it's 1979 lows, we've obviously been in a "Bear market" for many years. Where you been? Soon we'll hear why this was a "false rally" like all the other hundreds of "False rally's" that have occurred in the past 17 years, which indicate an iminent crash is at hand.

Dow/Gold Ratio = 25.31

XAU/Spot Ratio = .251

There is no economic reality for the jump in Japan. People that pushed the US markets up did so based on what.

That Japan fixed everything in 48 hours. How?

All: Saddam backing down -- Donald may have posted this already.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/international/stories/iraq_15.html

What happened to the Silver corner? No flareup yet, even after that Swiss Bank fiasco.

All: Saddam backing down -- Donald may have posted this already.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/international/stories/iraq_15.html

What happened to the Silver corner? No flareup yet, even after that Swiss Bank fiasco.

John, Hepcat, Dragoo, Crab Rangoon, test, testy, Gus, Parlez Vous, Zoinks, etc., Etc., ETC. I, fortunately, only have one id inside my body and am quite content to post under one handle, one ID#, or one e-mail address. To answer another of your previous non-sensical accusations: I did not post at all in September or October under any false handles. It is not my game to spread dissension and confusion for the sake of having fun. I leave that activity to the likes of you and the others that live with you in the same body. My advice to you is what it has always been. Take your prescribed medicine. Daily. If you have run out make an immediate appointment with your doctor ( s ) and have those prescriptions renewed. Pronto. Good Luck and Bon Chance - Zilch!

All: Saddam backing down. On another Yahoo search, the Saudis show willingness to support the US, due to concerns about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/international/stories/iraq_15.html

What happened to the Silver corner? No flareup yet, even after that Swiss Bank fiasco.

.. to registrations and removal of those who can not control themselves. I remember when, for a few days, we had some peace here. That was nice. I'm looking forward to a return to that mode. People with different view points can work together respectfully without personal attacks, harrasement or degrading others. People who express contrary opinions can communicate in a way that is adult and constructive. It is important to 'keep score' on predictions since this will help us to determine if someone has a good model. It is entirely inappropriate to derate someone because their predictions were not realized. What we are really involved in is sharing understanding and developing a consensus. This can not happen in a 'win-lose' mentality or discussion group. No one is so smart that they do not need help in attaining something better than what they already have. We are all standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before. In turn we will host the next generation. Let's do that well here.

John, Hepcat, Dragoo, Crab Rangoon, test, testy, Gus, Parlez Vous, Zoinks, etc., Etc., ETC. I, fortunately, only have one id inside my body and am quite content to post under one handle, one ID#, or one e-mail address. To answer another of your previous non-sensical accusations: I did not post at all in September or October under any false handles. It is not my game to spread dissension and confusion for the sake of having fun. I leave that activity to the likes of you and the others that live with you in the same body. My advice to you is what it has always been. Take your prescribed medicine. Daily. If you have run out make an immediate appointment with your doctor ( s ) and have those prescriptions renewed. Pronto. Good Luck and Bon Chance - Zilch!

It ain't all bad, Moonchild. This beats the sh!t out of any sitcom or daytime soap-opera ( IMVHO )

Get a life LGB you must be soooooo busy. Why didnt you join Quigly
and Bounce in conversation. Why, you might of picked up some hot
trading tips. Listen pal, its my job to ruffle feathers around here
and Im gonna silence you forever. It is my mission. HQ has given me
2 weeks. Pack up your gear boy and move em on out. I'm commin
over your place and I'm gonna mark my territory. Any dude who talks
like you is a security threat to themselves. If you want hyperventalate
on Kitco try it with a plastic bag man.

Donald - Thank you for continuing to provide us with the extremely useful Dow/Gold and other ratios. Is 25.31 a new high, or just very close to the old one?

November 17, 1997
Overseer bars Carey from union election rerun

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - A court-appointed overseer Monday disqualified Teamsters union President Ron Carey from running in a new election ordered after a first vote was nullified because of illegal fund raising by Carey's aides.

The overseer, Kenneth Conboy, agreed to a request by James Hoffa, Carey's opponent in the 1996 Teamsters union election, to bar the Teamsters president from running in the mail-ballot election scheduled for February and March.

The fund-raising scandal, in which officials of other unions and the Democratic National Committee also have been implicated, has marred the labor movement's image at a time when it is seeking to reinvigorate itself.
http://canoe2.canoe.ca/ReutersNews/TEAMSTERS-CAREY.html

Sorry ALL for the double post. Second one was supposed to be a message to Bart that perhaps after the registration system starts about half of the useless posts being made, ( take today as a good example, including my Hepcat related posts ) , will not be posted anymore, thus causing a decrease of about half the bandwidth being taken up. This one change alone may therefore make it unnecessary to charge a fee. Just a thought.

http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WAPO/19971117/V000036-111797-idx.html

Tim: No. That is not a new high. The high was 26.20 set in August. The high before that was 28.61 in 1966 and before that 18.43 set in 1929

Comex gold warehouse stocks PLUNGED 38,394 oz to 496,531 oz today. All of the drop was from 'eligible' stocks indicating someone taking delivery. Eligible stocks now stand at 246,036 oz. With comex open interest at 219,010 contracts as of Fridays close, we now have 1.12 ounces of gold to cover each contract. That means that 99 PER CENT OF THE CONTRACTS ARE NOT COVERED, not that anyone cares.

Comex silver stocks unchanged today at 126,097,149 ounces.

I wonder if we are going to see some Silverite 'enemas' bestowed tonight. Don't mind me if I start laughing already! HAR!

Donald - Many thanks. You just saved me a time consuming search of your old posts!

Does anybody have any opinion on Indochina Goldfields. They appear to be a strong company, at a low price.

CB - I actually agree with you and told the crazed one so myself once or twice last Winter/Spring when he made some particularily funny posts. He is missing his true calling as a stand-up comedian. He could give Jim Carey a serious run for his money. In fact if he had have tried out thay might have even given the Hepper the role of the insane Joker in the Batman movie to the 'Hep' Cat instead of to Jim. With about ten different personalities under one layer of skin how can he miss? He could conceivably come up with a story or funny one-liner under just about any circumstance. BBML

http://biz.yahoo.com/upi/97/11/17/international_news/koreanork_1.html

Was gonna leave but just saw your post which is a strong indicator that we are close to the absolute bottom. Somebody's taking big deliveries and eligible stocks are about as low as they can go. Seems like a turn around can't be too far off. Geez, Sorry EB! There I go mimicking George again. :- )

Tim: I would be pleased to send you a printed copy of the Dow/Gold Ratio chart from 1903 to this July 27th if you will e.mail me your postal mailing address.

Sorry about the bad news guys. It is down from here give or take 50
There is no more strength left in this rally. For Dow to truly awaken
it would need another 350 rise. It had that chance today. It didnt take it. Look out followers of LGB, you might need a shovel to pick up the
pieces after this train runs through his bravado.

SRDer, Are you out there? I have a little info for you.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/971111/a_m_best_1.html

YOUR A HOPELESS HUMAN BEING. SCHMUCK

McDonough said, however, the current role of the dollar should not be ``taken for granted.''

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/dlr_s_reserve_role_m_1.html

Asked about Brazil, he again refused specific comment, saying only that "there obviously has been

a great deal of financial instability."

http://www.economeister.com/curracct/971117ca/rubin_pe.htm

You people would have better odds in Atlantic City. I'd roll the dice before I would listen to anyone of ya. Whats that say for this site. Get real folks!

Asked about Brazil, he again refused specific comment, saying only that "there obviously has been

a great deal of financial instability."

http://www.economeister.com/curracct/971117ca/rubin_pe.htm

DONALD YOU NEED PROZAC OR ZOLOFF TO CURE YOUR DOOM AND GLOOM HABITS. WATCH OUT DONALD THEIR COMING THRU THE WALLS. GET A LIFE FOR CHRIST SAKES.

ALL YOU ARE IS A NUISANCE

IT'S ALL GRAY SKYS WITH YOU NOMERCY. WHY CAN'T YOU PROVIDE ALITTLE WARMTH IN PEOPLES LIFES. I'M SICK OF YOU.

Crawled back into your little holes did ya. Come out and play so I can see you ugly mug turn different colors. LOSERS

You sound real smart Millionaire. Its a wonder youre not a billionaire by now.

Nice try, Mr. Mooney. However, you are not telling the truth.
Also, for the newcomers, all of the names Mr. Mooney addressed
me by were different handles I was forced to use on SI after he
and his compadres insisted on having me kicked off for pointing
out that Flag was a good investment. This has been bourne out
by the drop in Flag from a high of $1.30 to a low of .27. It is
presently at .56, below when RJ2/leaner Mooney/prognosticator/howler
said they were throwing everybody a bone. Mr. Mooney can hem and
haw all he wants, but if he could ever face up to facts, for the
last year Flag has not been a good investment unless you got out
at $1.30, a point where he was still advocating people get in.
I never denied using these handles - Cominsk Dragoo, Cool Water,
Parlez Vous, nor have I ever denied using them, nor have I ever
not been forthcoming when someone asked if I used a particular
handle or not. I am not Gus, I am not Karlito, I am not LGB.
I have never once asked Bart who a particular handle was ( well,
I did ask once, but he never answered ) or to confirm my suspicion
that a particular handle was another person. I unearth all of
these things by my intuition and by ID number, I have yet to be proven wrong, and most of these dopplegangers are quite easy to reveal based
on style and time of posts. I have always stated "If you are so sure, please provide evidence that I am a particular person I say I am not".
No one ever has.

I am not Gus, I will never be Gus, and I don't know how it helps
your cause to insist I am Gus. If you want me to be Gus, fine,
since Gus serves as a surrogate and I am always serving as a
surrogate so that notoriously incorrect posters can at least undergo
some role playing on how their awful predictions impact people
in the real world. ( Which clearly doesn't make a difference. The only time GSC or Puetz ever backed away from a blank screen is when the cops busted up their stag film party before it got started. )
However, I am not Gus. At least I tell the truth. When I ask you,
Mr. Mooney, I know you are lying.

Oh, and we're still waiting on that prediction. Here's some help:

Gold will be at __________ on __________.

Fill in the blanks, and try not to write with an ink pen on the computer, because only you can see that.

AT LEAST I GOT SOME, YA SCUM BOY.

just so you don't have to waste time speculating on that.

HERE'S A HINT. LOOK IN THE SEWER AND YOU WILL FIND SOME TEST. HE'S OUT OF THE PIPE NOW AND HE'S THERE. DUMB PRICK.

Flag is currently at .50

My apologies. As Tim over on SI says ( I am not Tim, by the way )
Flag is a great stock to jump in and out of, but volume is always
a problem. No doubt Mr. Mooney will be kicking up the volume
the next coupla' weeks, and no doubt in his enthusiasm he will post the upcoming but hardly unexpected jump to .90 on both this channel and K2.

Aurophile, are you in?

LETS HAVE A CONTEST ON HOW MUCH YOU LOSERS CAN LOSE. PLAY WITH YOUR OWN MONEY OF COURSE. OH NO WE CAN'T PLAY YOU LOST DIMWITT'S DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY. OH WELL. ONCE A LOSER ALWAYS A LOSER.

We must be very close to coming out of this bear for gold, judging by the pot-shots everyone is taking at each other! Don't forget about the "last fool" people. I'm stayin true to my belief that we're much closer to a new bull for gold than we are to a new high on the Dow!

HE'S GOING TO JOIN TEST.

FOR NOTHING BECAUSE YA GOT NOTHING.

Today one of the Japanese Banks bit the dust and the Government and media are asking for the public to be calm. Now as each and every bank steps to the plate does this mean the public is prepared for the onslaught of losing their monetary purchasing power?? I think with all the most learned financial economists and money managers singing the same phrases
of the "No Problem Be Happy Senario" it would be semi-appropriate to start looking for something of true value. Dear Lord, I'm a sinner, I've chased the paper dream and its now time for me to pay the piper, I know its hard to admit this, but the greed of being a "Paper Puppet" is not hard to take and I'm caught in the evil ones snare. The objectives and methods used by the paper deceivers;

1. Gain Political Power ( Were pretty close to this outcome?? )

2. Destory Freedom ( Something many take for granted, nowdays!! )

3. Acquire Wealth ( Millionaire, you could be borderline here!! )

4. Destory God's Kingdom ( There's no such person, just money & power?? )

5. Secret Oaths, Covenants and Group Solidarity ( CB's and Institutions )

6. Murder and Assassination ( Wonder who got knocked off today?? )

7. Robbery and Plunder ( Will all Japanese people please stay calm!! )

8. Political Action ( We own the court, so we'll do it OUR WAY!! )

9. Bribery and Corruption ( The pro-paper pushers on Kitco know this all
to well!! )

This list is an example of what is in store for the typical investor today, is anyone prepared for the worldwide system crunch?? 99.9% of what is discussed on Kitco is relevent to proper financial planning and a alternative approach to whats said on the street, for the individuals who
constantly ridicule the wise, please take a trip elsewhere your wasting our valuable time!! TANKS!!!

when we're reached the bottom for gold

A. When we actually reach the bottom for gold
B. When, for one week, no one comes on and posts "judging by
people's behavior, we must be at a bottom for gold"

New kid, it is obvious you are a new kid, because every
single week for the past 18 months, someone has posted
exactly what you just posted. Guess what? None of those
posts proved to be correct. This is not analysis.
This is talking to keep your lips from getting chapped.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/business/stories/growth_1.html

YOU HAVE CHOOSEN GOLD= POORMAN. YOU'LL BE SMOKING BUTS AFTER IT'S ALL OVER FOOL.

Don't you think it's high time you found yourself a job?

If we are not allowed to post our opinions here, then
this site becomes everything you say occurs in the
outside world ( that world outside of your cardboard
box in the Vancouver recycling and landfill ) . So
don't on the one hand call for censorship by proxy
and on the other hand decry the lack of alternative views.
Someone has to counterbalance your nonsense. We will
be right until we are wrong, but you will be wrong
until you are right.

YOU WILL LOSE.

Flag, GLB, DVL, MMT, gold, silver, end of the world, Dow,
Nikkei.

I have a question for everybody: Is your continued
"paper is folly" approach a convoluted attempt to
actually recruit people to invest in gold? Deriding
the other side or scaring them into investing in gold
is not working - look at your charts. Try instead to make
gold attractive, by referring to its potential as
a frozen savings account or as insurance against unstable
elements ( like Kitco regulars ) carving you up with a hacksaw.

http://www.businessweek.com/1997/47/b3554167.htm

ALL LOSERS COME FORWARD. NOW JUMP, HEAD FIRST.

http://www.businessweek.com/1997/47/b3554165.htm

Heh! I just got back and logged on. Whats all this talk about Millionaires Testicles. I thought this was about Gold, the metal and its mystic, not a couple of nuts. Why are they hanging around? Why are they so sore if they are not even interested in the subject? Must be macho thing. Sure hope it goes up no matter what they say.

LOSE LOSE LOSE TAKE PUETZ, TAKE NICK ALL LOSING ON GOLD CALLS AND STOCK PUTS. LA LA LA DE DA LA LA LA DE D A LOSE LOSE LOSE LA LA LA DE DA la la la de DOPES.

HA HA YOU LOSE.

WHACK IT

CNBC Story: Major Credit Card Debt leading to 125% 1st & 2nd Mortgages. Yep, there is no problem out there!

Donald - My humble apologies. As you probably guessed, I have been away from the terminal. That is a very kind offer, and of course, I accept.
I will e-mail you an address to which to send the chart.

YOUR THE PROBLEM. 125% SO WHAT. PEOPLE CAN SPEND THEIR MONEY ANYWAY THEY WANT. GET IT. MIND YOUR BUSINESS.

Bart - Hurry with the registration. The kiddies seem to be in a posting frenzy at just the mention of it.

KITCO a Sobriety test would be a good idea prior to allowing a person to log on. Try asking them to spell their name, count to ten, or their fathers name.

Stock market analysis BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY

Precious metals analysis SELL SELL SELL SELL SELL

With Blitzkrieg effectiveness the Nikkei soared 1200 points on Monday to 16283 -- a gain of nearly 8%.

REPORT FROM TOKYO: Monday's rally reflected a perception among investors that authorities were taking active steps to help the ailing financial sector following news that Hokkaido Takushoku
Bank Ltd's business will be taken over by another regional bank.

The above will eventually prove INDEED to be a mammoth understatement... that authorities were taking active steps to help the ailing financial sector... IMO there is only one force which possesses the financial clout and MOTIVATION to temporarily detour the downward spiral of Japanese stock prices: THE BANK OF JAPAN ( BOJ ) - Central Bank of Japan!

Consider the scenario. Japans corporate world riddled with scandal... top executives jailed. The economy in a worsening recession. Interest rates nearly abolished in futile attempt to stimulate economic activity. Japanese Banking system relentlessly crumbling due to domestic unperforming loans, estimated by Nippon experts to be between US$400-US$800 BILLION. Adding to the banking systems burden are massive bank failures in most Tiger nations, which are the Nippons largest debtors. Massive withdrawals of funds from Japanese insurance companies, due to fear they will fail. In light of all these negative factors the Japanese saver has lost all confidence in their financial sector. ALL THE ABOVE IS KNOWN TO EVERYONE... native and foreigner. SO, WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY COME FROM TO CAUSE AN 8% RISE IN THE NIKKEI IN ONE SINGLE DAY?????

It is not foreign money!
It is not Japanese savers money!
It can ONLY be the BOJ, which has motive and means!

Whereas the BOJ will momentarily deter the slide in Nikkei, it will not resolve the underlying problems plaguing Japan and the rest of Asia. It is a ruse to confuse.

To appreciate the grim financial and economic conditions - becoming worse daily - one must examine the problems. This weekend an outstanding article was posted at GOLD-EAGLE, which describes in minute detail what is happening in Asia.
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/kutyn111597.html

Auric,Donald,6pak: keep posting the news. There's more information here than in 20 news sites around the world.
Millionaire, you are really funny. I can't type I'm laughin' so hard....

LONG AND HARD. SQUIRT SHOOT SHOOT SQUIRT. I'M A BOGGIE NIGHTS BABE. SQUIRT SHOOT SQUIRT SHOOT SHOOT.

ANYBODY HERE NEED AN ENEMA, as Eldo 'terms' it? I'll be most happy to provide. AH, I see we have a 'millionaire' posting here, with a mouth to match. Perhaps it is a bad time of month for 'it' and needs a RAG stuffed somewhere! SHALL I OBLIGE?

test

IF IT DOES'T GET ALL OVER YOUR FACE IT DOESN'T BELONG IN YOUR MOUTH. SHOOT SHOOT SQUIRT SQUIRT SHOOT ALL OVER YOUR FACE.

Anybody know good place to buy Hot melting gold?

There is no way bonds can rise as if the dollar falls foreign buyers wont purchase because of currency risk. Foreign CB sales are making problem worse by being rumored tosell some. On the other hand if the economy shows strength even if this causes a stronger dollar it will mean higher rates by the Fed and will be bad for bonds. There is nowhere for bonds to go but down. ARGUMENTS RE Bonds at the end of their Bear Market in Oct 1987 just before the, thus far, 10 year bull began. LESSON the more convincing and overwhelming the arguments and apparent evidence the closer you are to a major bottom.

The gold Bears and stk Bull arguments are funny given what is really developing in the world economy.

Millionaire,test and HepCRAP,
I can tell you that I for myself scroll over your crap very Qickly.
Same thing when I read in Caps....FLUSH
Keep loosing your not so precious time...after all, Bart is coming in soon with THE fix.

Oliver

SHOOT SHOOT SQUIRT SQUIRT"0H NOW HOLD ON TO IT" SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT SQUIRT YA LIP SERVICE PLEASE

Dirk; You couldn't even get within 20 feet of a woman. Maybe a Lezzy, but not a WOMAN! They'd smell you a mile away, at least. Best you can get is yourself ( ? ) ! The only thing you would know how to squirt, even if you HAD anything else, is your baby bottle, and you mommy would have to help you with that!

In an absolutely perfect world, no central bank would need to
hold any gold. David Ricardo, the great supply-side, classical
economist of the 19th century, wrote in his Principles of Political Economy in London of 1821, that When money is working at the peak of efficiency, the central bank need hold no gold.

Very few opponents of "a gold standard" know what it is or how it works or how many different ways there are to link paper money to gold.

If the Eurocrats understood that, they would go back to the
drawing boards and build a monetary system from that assumption. This would require them to first fix the Eurocurrency to something the markets would understand as being a reliable unit of account. What? The answer is the dollar, the world's key currency, except that the dollar still wobbles around relative to the gold price. The Euro would be possible, but only if the dollar is first fixed in value to gold. Then, the European nations in the Eurocurrency system would have a credible unit of account as their anchor.
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/wanniski111897.html

LGB is that loving good boy yum yum come to daddy and bring cat along yum yum

Bart; The looney farm made the net available to the inmates today. Time to take out the trash again.

IF YOU ONLY DID. I HAD BOTH. SHOOT SHOOT SQUIRT SQUIRT SHOOT RIGHT IN YOUR FACE, AND MOUTH. 13 INCHES WORTH

One last time folks. Most of the 'gold' trading reported is nothing more than paper trades. The Central Bankers aren't selling, they're loaning paper. It's a big paper shuffle. It works as long as we all believe in the 'credibility' of the exchanges. One major default.... Force Majour? ( sp? )

How quickly everyone seems to be forgeting the platinum/palladium trading at the begining of the year. What has changed THAT much in the white metals?

As far as gold and gold producers go, PGU was the Bre-X of the larger mines. High cost and no profits. Who else looks like PGU? ECO? someone else? Who will suffer? More importantly, who will be buying the lost cost producers with reserves? Bre-X took out the juniors... Think about it, then take two aspirin and think about it some more.

lost = lowest

AND I HAVE IT TO STICK WHEREVER I WANT. YA HOE.

Come to me voronsri got gold under bed shhets

LGB: I welcome the Kitco registration -- just as you do. There have been 3 Puetz postings in the past 2 days that were not mine. The 18:54 tonight wasn't mine.

I still wiev the stock market bearishly. Here are some reasons:

1 ) The advance-decline line has been pathetic. Tonight, it stands just barely above where it did on October 27th. Just 3 trading days ago, it fell into new-low territory. It has barely bounced back from that low.

2 ) The DJIA and S&P have once again rallied back to its resistance area -- at the levels before the October 27th panic.

3 ) Investor sentiment ( as measured by the AAII ) is at one of it most bullish levels in the past 10 years -- that's a good contrary indicator.

4 ) The market is now short-term over-bought -- fully correcting the short-term over-sold from 3 weeks ago. The stock market both intermediate-term and long-term over-bought.

5 ) Speculators have been pouring into stocks since October 27th. They are the most unstable group of all stock market players. Watch out when they try to sell. The question will be: Sell to whom?

6 ) A number of smaller foreign markets continue to trend lower. The international trend is down. Even the markets that have rallied -- they haven't approached their pre-October 27th levels. The US market is virtually alone in regaining what was lost since then.

This is my short-term analysis of the situation. My long-term analysis remains unchanged -- Super-Bearish!! I'm still expecting the greatest stock market crash of all-time to soon develop.

Hey nobody told me this is about stocks hi putz what size yo got

Mooney: Thanks alot!! will get back to you later---have to keep the phone line open---gotta run~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

George Cole: Can I have some of what Burt Ely is smoking? He sounds like my stock broker. Has he ever heard of the "business cycle"?
"only fools own gold" - tell that to the people in Hong Kong or the guys in Indonesia who were using it to buy WATER.

Vronski:
I've tried e-mailing this through your site but am unsure if it got through. The post below was taken off of a Silicon Investor website. It points out several inaccuracies found in your Federal Reserve article. Please read it and reply. Where did you get your information and why is it inaccuate if indeed it is so? Please respond! Here is the excerpt:

"Rothchild never had a Berlin branch in the the 200 years of their banking history. This is taken off some board of ultra rightists and racist separative groups trying to revive the old "Elder of Zion" conspiracy theory. Anitsemistic garbage of the highest order trying to hide behind the theme of 'less government'. By the way, there is no Lazard Brothers Bank in Paris ( and to the best of my knowledge, there never was ) , and except of the fact that Warburg came to the US from Europe, he and is family never had a bank in Amsterdam, he joined a brokerage here in New York before he helped start the Federal Reserve System. These are the same fabrications I checked in detail about a year ago when the same garbage floated on Vronski's gold site."

Well, are you spreading truth or misinformation? I want to be fair to you!

TED,

Hi!Over here,just 09.04 a.m !really early!!
The thai bhats,malaysia ringgits and korea won got hit heavyly late yesterday evening!Short my physicals last week from 310 per oz,think that to covered to day,gained few cents....tHE STOCKS here still not stable!though nikkie ,hangseng gained yesterday!look out for korea too!
email to you soon....get more facts..off.......watch out ....sawatdeekarp!

Hello All:

Jim Dines had an interesting comment about the Swiss selling gold.

Dines said that the reason the Swiss officals wanted to do this was because they wanted to weaken their currency. The Swiss beauracrats want remove the gold backing the because Franc is to strong. The Swiss gov't wants to weaken the Franc. Does this imply anything about gold?

I will go back into gold when George Cole give one of his fuzzey "this may be the bottom" posts AND gold AND the Canadian dollar are up.

Hey anybody got some whips or tips thinking to invest in gold for some kinky fun ooooh baby

Puetz, You couldn't tell a bull market from a bear market if it stared you in the face. Still hanging on to those puts huh. You don't have a choice, their worthless. Some market analysis specially prepared for this site of havenots. When you gonna land that 3rd job to pay for all your foolish mistakes.

Hey Puetz - So should we be buying gold and silver or
gold or silver or gold not silver or not gold but silver?

Stephen Mooney - Doggone it now, we are all waiting to
hear your prediction. When are you going to give us
our fix? If you don't make a prediction soon, a lot
of papers are going to go without a business section
tomorrow. The free press depends on you. Where is you
gold prediction, Mr. Mooney? You are the Kitco King,
never wrong, always right. Tell us that Louis XVI story
again, Mr. Mooney. Tell us about averaging down, you
ole gold bear, you.

Hey test is that short for testicle come to my house oooh baby

My number 1 indicator has giving its strongest sell-signal so far. I call it the HECKLER INDEX. When the hecklers come out at Kitco, it's time to sell stocks and buy gold and silver. The track-record has been good in the past.

As far as I can tell, heckling has hit a record during the past 24 hours. Sell stocks, buy gold and silver. The hecklers will be tucking their tails between their legs in a few days. You can count on it.

George Cole finally says "Alright, that's it,
I give up. I have no idea where the bottom is,
nor do I know when it will arrive, nor do I know
what will indicate it, nor do I think once it arrives
that you will miss out if you don't get in immediately,
nor that once it arrives it will rise exponentially
each day for a month, nor do I know how to survive
without Meals on Wheels bringing me scalloped potatoes
and diced carrots and cherries jubilee every day, nor do I
know how to find the business end of a remote control,
nor do I know why I wasted seven months out of my
life calling a daily end to the gold bear, nor do I
know how I was able to retire at 42 off of my knowledge
of the markets except for complete blind luck or intervention
from a higher power or the fact that my broker always did
exactly the opposite of what I instructed him to do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/hi/english/business/newsid_31000/31889.stm

Only he's running out of steam.

Where you make a wild-ass prediction just for the heck of it.

Steve - I'm disappointed. You are not emphasizing silver
over gold. Should we talk to Eldorado to see what you
really mean when you say buy gold and silver?
If the Heckler index has worked in the past,
then you should be batting a thousand on all your predictions
so far this year. But you haven't even been batting one in a thousand, and you missed that prediction about how you would continue to post
provided you were making people money.

Hey putz you sweet but like that test .... icle

Steve - Before tucking my tail, I'll probably
shout out some parting shot like "I don't
owe my country anything."

Add 1 more point to the HECKLER INDEX.

Excuse me. Add 3 more points to the HECKLER INDEX.

About one month ago, I posted a question to the effect:

What will it take for you to admit you all were wrong?
Just give me some kind of number, anything, a line in
the sand which, if gold goes beyond it, will make you
say "uncle".

For example, if gold goes to $250 ( pretty outrageous,
don't you think ) , will any of you capitulate?

If the Dow goes to 8000 ( hard to believe with all
the ongoing bank failures in Hokkaido, commonly
referred to as the Wisconsin of Japan ) , will any
of you admit that you were wrong?

Do you have a number? Do you have a stopping point?
Or is your final breath going to be spent on the
words "what a fantastic buying opportunity"?

test, TEST MY BIG 13!

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971117/business/stories/commodities_5.html

I think it would be interesting to find out exactly
how much Steve Puetz has invested in his own advice.

Remember when GSC kept telling people to buy gold stocks
on the dips one month ago, then during a moment of
not thinking, admitted he had about 3% of his funds invested in
gold or gold stocks?

OH ALBERT,,,,, KISSY KISSY. WON"T YOU BE MINE TONIGHT?

Test: I don't remember you asking that question at all. However, I do remember LGB asking me that question. LGB, could you possibly be hiding behind the alias TEST? If I remember correctly, I believe I said a rally about 8000 would defer the crash to another later date -- so far, that hasn't happened.

Heckler extra point. Man, is gold really going to
take off tomorrow. And the Dow, toastchee.

Puetz I hate to say it but your market analysis STINKS. When you going to get off the soap box. I think you should reconsider about doing something else in life. Anyone that has followed you has lost their shirt. A good example is Nick. You got him good. He's probably got a noose around his neck right now because of you. Do us all a favor and blow your brains out and get it over with.

OH TESTY,, I'D SO LOVE TO FONDLE YOURS. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE ANY?

Sado Masochism or investing in gold related equities. Who is really the sick person?

The Malaysian and South Korean stock markets continue to sink. I believe they are both dipping into new low territory. Could someone check this out for me? -- If, in fact, that is the case.

http://www.bis.org/press/index.htm

Just a note: Last week ordered several Morgan silver dollars and was told they would be shipped shortly thereafter.
Called today and was told "they SHOULD be shipped by the end of this week, hopefully..."

Selby, Mooney, Mo in To: I detest large cities but love yours. I live just around the end of the lake from you. About 50 miles east of the Falls.

I have been posting as Test all day. Are you daft?
Do you know how to read anything longer than three letters?

Pakistan is down 2.5%, Steve. How does this figure
in to the Heckler equation. Is this just another indication
that a number of the lurkers at Kitco are Pakistani?

Steve Puetz - Market maven to the world, or at least tonight,
Pakistan.

Puetz - yes - marvelous isn't it! Such an wild fury of hecklers - SOMETHING surely must be up!

Arden - delicious hearing those COMEX gold drawn-down numbers. Doomsday draweth nigh for the worshipers of paper. Thanks for your reports!

Finally - yes - Bart, I'm in for restration as well. Away foul sprites! Back to your Wall Street Nazgul masters.

They just ran out of money in Japan.

Worldwide rescue was impressive but getting to be a multi front daily battle. RE ARRANGE DECK SHARES ON THE TITANIC ALAN ET AL.?

Hepcat - After all the nonsense you have put people through today, aren't you feeling just a little bit ashamed? I don't know why I'm even bothering to speak to you after all your multiple-handle posts spewing such filth in the face of all the participants here. Sure, some people ( newcomers ) might be fooled, by your handle and ID changes, but most of the regulars know exactly that all those obnoxious posts are being made by you. WE really had hope for you, that one day you would finally desist from this self destructive nonsense. Over and over you've been told to take your medicine, but NO, you'd rather fight within yourself with all the disturbed personalities that you harbour under one skin. Perhaps it's the fact that you have no other friends and so you can't bear to let the others inside depart. Actually, some of your more degenerate posts tonight have told the true story, confirming something that I suspected all along. You grew up in a very disturbed home environment and through the abuse that was heaped upon you, in your youth , you have developed very deep-seated emotional problems through no fault of your own. We here at Kitco have been suffering with you and hoping, that through communication, you would get better. Unfortunately this forum also has many conflicting personalities and everytime you seem to get a bit better, for one reason or another, you seem to shortly thereafter have a relapse.
No, John, the only solution for you is to do as I, and others, have suggested many times. Take your medicine on a regular basis and seek out the BEST professional counselling that you can find. Speak to any trusted doctor to steer you in the right direction. Good Luck and God Speed!

Diggler meet me and test tonight yeeeees lets play golden horseshoes yum yum yummy

Morgan dollars are readily available from http://www.ajpm.com or
any of about six thousand other coin dealers. There is no shortage,
nor will there ever be a shortage, of Morgan dollars. For most
years at the Philadelphia mint alone, over 10 million were produced
EACH YEAR. What's next, somebody coming on and saying they went
to the bank to get a roll of pennies and the teller looked all
shifty and said "COME BACK TOMORROW. WE SHOULD HAVE SOME TOMORROW."

"registration"

Test: I'm referring to your 20:37 posting -- where you said: "About a month ago I asked..." LGB was the person who asked me that question 1 month ago, not TEST. It seems that LGB and TEST are the same person. Why would TEST think he said something that LGB said 1 month ago, unless TEST is LGB?

AH COME ON TESTY, STEVIE DOESN'T WANT YOU, BUT I DO. KISSY KISSY! EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.

Monday, November 17, 1997 Published at 12:06 GMT



World: Far East

Thailand Bank Loses Profits

Thailand's biggest bank, the Bangkok Bank, has
announced that its profits for the third quarter of this year
have fallen by almost a-half, to seventy-five million dollars
just under three billion baht.

Correspondents say the Bangkok Bank -- like most
others in Thailand -- is saddled with bad debts.

They say the banking sector has been among the most
serious casualties of Thailand's current economic crisis,
and almost all banks can expect bad results for at least
the next two quarters.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

Consider the environment and views of every market at the time of its reversal of fortunes: DOW 1968, 1982, 1997; GOLD 1971, 1981, 1997. Either overwhelming optumism or pessimism which did not fit the facts: its neither as good nor as bad as it looks. Arguements in favor of or against a market being based on the recent past ( 3 - 7 years ) never take into account that a reversal is never part of that prior time period. So it is always a surprise when it happens. At first people do not believe it. They look at the reversal as a short break from the trend which surely be re-established. A recovery ( or decline ) reinforces the idea that the trend has not been violated. The second reversal portion is met by insistance that we are just seeing another pause before the trend reasserts itself. The final wash out ( or up ) starts the stampede ( out or in ) .

IMHO we are in the first return to trend, between the first major reversal portion and the second such portion ( for the DOW ) . In terms of gold we are in the first return to trend of the bear, between the first and the second reversal portions ( changing the bear to a bull for gold ) . The syncronicity of these two markets is very interesting to me. Usually opposed they are now aligned. I expect that the return to opposition will signal the moment that DOW will nosedive and gold will ascend both dramaticly. This regardless of the who and why of the correlation and pricing.

Baby-cakes, I'm glad to be in the metal now. Because I hate getting stampeded on. Remember, reversals are always surprises.

GET YOUR NUT OFF 13. CUM CUM TO ME. OOH BABY

That would put you somewhere in beautiful upstate New York, somewhere in Orleans or Monroe county. Close?

Albert Marv: I've heard that "YUM YUM YUM" somewhere before. You aren't related to Big Bad Wolf by any chance?

Steve: "test" is the Hepper. He admitted it earlier today. :- )

Steve - I've posted under one handle today, that of 'test'.
You seem to enjoy breaking your promise to ignore me with
every single post. In fact, it's kind of a coy "I really told
myself I wouldn't respond to Hepcat anymore, but I just had
to say this one thing before I never respond to him again
ever again". Would you like me to post all the times in
the past month where your posts have been exactly this?
Steve, guess what, even though I haven't been on K2 for
about 6 months and am not going to expend any energy
this year beating a dead dog since I already proved my
point, the bulk of your recent post was not about Flag
but was about me. How much confidence do you have in
a stock if you spend most of your time swatting at
nonexistant detractors before you even start the promotion.
Ninety cents, Steven, and no higher. Kind of makes you
wonder if it's worth the effort, knowing that's as high
as it gets. Remember T.IC, Steven. Don't press your luck.

Well stated. I expect the fit to start hitting the shan very shortly.

STUMBLING GIANTS

ASIA'S MALAISE SPREADS TO JAPAN AND SOUTH
KOREA. IT COULD POSE THE MOST SERIOUS THREAT
YET TO U.S. PROSPERITY, FROM MAIN STREET TO
WALL STREET

BY FRANK GIBNEY /TOKYO


First came the Asian Miracle, as booming Pacific Rim countries showed the
rest of the world how to grow. Now comes the Asian Meltdown, as turmoil
across the region shakes markets from Hong Kong to Wall Street. Last week it
was Japan and South Korea that gave the world a jolt. No sooner had rumors
of a possible South Korean collapse swept out of Seoul than the Japanese yen
and the Tokyo stock market plunged to their lowest levels in two years. Across
the Pacific, the ill winds from Asia blew the Dow Jones industrial average into a
157-point drop on Wednesday. "The real problem in East Asia is not Thailand,
Indonesia or the Philippines," says Kenneth Courtis, chief Asia-Pacific
strategist for Deutsche Morgan Grenfell. "It is Japan and Korea."

It wasn't supposed to be this way. On the eve of the Pacific century, Asia's two
most powerful economies were supposed to be pumping out wealth for the rest
of the world--not threatening to suck it dry. But banks in Japan and South
Korea now groan with bad debts that could push both countries into deep,
prolonged downturns. In Japan, public confidence is at a postwar low and
nobody wants to spend a yen. Korea is cash strapped and politically
rudderless, with a presidential election just four weeks off.

U.S. leaders have been eyeing both countries with growing alarm. In a letter to
his Japanese counterpart two weeks ago, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin
reportedly urged Tokyo to move swiftly to regenerate the Japanese economy
and warned against flooding the U.S. with exports as a way to solve Japanese
problems. And with concerns rising in Congress, Federal Reserve Chairman
Alan Greenspan testified last week that Asia's problems, while not yet "serious
threats" to the U.S. economy, could become so if they are not defused
properly. To do that, Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers was to
meet with Japanese officials in Tokyo this week to discuss an emergency
bailout fund for the region.

The stakes for the U.S. are particularly high in Japan and Korea. Banking
collapses in either country would pull back gobs of capital from the U.S. and
possibly slay the bull market. At the same time, a sharp drop in demand for
U.S. exports could slow or stall the soundest peacetime expansion in recent
American history. Perhaps more worrisome is the danger Rubin warned
against--that Japan and Korea might slash prices of exports to the U.S. to
restart their economic engines, and thereby ignite a trade war.

So what happened to Asia's two key economies? Korea's rise was until
recently the stuff of legend. Like Japan, Korea prospered from the cooperation
among its banks, politicians and large conglomerates, known as chaebol.
Politicians picked industries to support; business leaders duly invested in them;
and banks put up the money.

But as growth slowed and Seoul opened its economy to foreign competition,
the fat profit margins of Korean companies suddenly became anorexic.
Manufacturers like carmaker Kia Motors and steelcaster Hanbo have
collapsed. Yet the chaebol kept begging for money, and their bankers kept
obliging. Result: loans to Korean companies have reached an amount equal to
165% of Korea's GDP, and rumors abound that the country may seek an
International Monetary Fund rescue. Seoul, however, denies it.

For Japan, which has been in a slump for most of this decade, the turmoil in
Korea and the rest of the region ends any hope for a near-term recovery.
Toyota said this month that it will temporarily close two huge auto plants in
Thailand and conglomerates like Mitsubishi Heavy Industries have been
slashing profit forecasts.

Japan's plight is especially worrisome because Japan is the world's most
important investor. But with corporate bankruptcies climbing there, nobody in
Japan is willing to invest much in anything. "We have banks desperate to get rid
of bad loans," says a top official at the Foreign Affairs Ministry, "and they will
not fund anything until they have done that."

Therein lies the core of Japan's current perplexity. During the go-go years of
the 1980s, Japanese banks handed out money no matter how grandiose the
project. Now the banks must write off hundreds of billions of dollars of bad
loans even as more companies tumble into bankruptcy. And with the stock
market's Nikkei average threatening to drop below 15,000--vs. its peak of
38,915 in December 1989, when the bubble burst--many banks face massive
losses on their stock portfolios. If the Nikkei index sinks toward 14,000, as
many economists fully expect, Japan's top 20 lenders could face an additional
$100 billion in portfolio losses. "The whole system is in trouble," says Masaru
Kakutani, a Moody's Japan representative director.

Such setbacks could force Japanese banks to dump foreign holdings for cash,
which would swiftly be felt across the Pacific. The Dow Jones average tumbled
last June when Japanese

Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said in jest that his country might begin to
liquidate its U.S. Treasury bill holdings. "If they did that, there would be a
substantial downtick in our market prices, our equity prices and probably in our
real estate prices," says Carl Weinberg, chief economist for High Frequency
Economics in Valhalla, N.Y.

In any case, Japan and Korea can count on the falling value of their currency to
increase exports to the U.S., a prospect that worries American companies.
Shares of Texas Instruments fell 13% last week on fears of growing Asian
competition in the market for computer chips. If exports from Korea and Japan
do balloon, America's trade deficit will also. That in turn would strengthen the
protectionist forces in Congress that last week forced Bill Clinton to withdraw
his fast-track trade measure.

The turmoil in Asia has already cooled prospects for the U.S. economy next
year, which helps explain why Greenspan last week declined again to raise
interest rates. Japan and Korea must now put their own economic houses in
order--Japan was to unveil a new stimulus package this week--without waiting
for miracles.

WELL GOLLY. NOBODY WANTS ME? MAYBE AL WANTS SOME? COME ON AL. ALL 13 JUST FOR YOU! WELL, MAYBE A LITTLE FOR TESTY-LESS ALSO.

XAU still holding above multi year lower trend line of 75. Good sign!
Stockmarket wizards enjoy your turkey, stockmarket to crash after thanksgiving. Local coin stores out of St.Gaudens.

Mooney: Yes, sir. Monroe.

This is about the worst I've ever seen Kitco. It's a shame when such sterling posters as John K, Donald, Nick et al get drowned out by the noise.

OH YA AS I SQUEEZE MY GENITILES DIRK SLIPS IT IN MY MOUTH. WOW I CAME RIGHT AWAY. I LUV YOU DIRK.

The move up in Japan is the death knell. Clearly this huge sum of money came from somewhere. Hmmm. I wonder where. Equally absurd was the reaction in other markets.

Meanwhile back at media central, gold is a constant theme. Why if something is so archaic is it deserving of so much air time? Clearly India, China, Middle Eastern countries and yes, Japan do not think that gold is dead. In fact, the only country where gold is considered dead is the United States.

Constant intervention has created a monster that is out of control now.
The market forces will crush this intervention and the market with it. There will be no way to stop them. Like I said the death knell was announced with the 1200 point gain in Japan.

Has any one seen the latest open interest for the December Gold Contract
If draw downs continue at this rate,I think a short squeeze may be in the cards.

Gotta go for now and watch my Bills get trashed by the Dolphins. BBL.

Test you ham its time to move over to crystal she got class and know the Big Bad Wolf she makes money everday and everway yum yummy crystal

Steve just noticed your comment relating test and LGB. I don't know if THAT is accurate but believe me - Test IS Hepcat as has been practically every other disturbed post tonight. Just for starters one of the few things that Hepcat was good at was talking about the coins, as test has been doing between rude remarks. So many other of tests remarks today prove he is Hepcat. All the little rude one-liners using many different handles IS a Hepcat trademark when he is off his medicine. We were warned that this week the planets are alining ( has effects similar to full moon on many people ) and so we should have expected this would happen. Whether LGB is also Hepcat is something I always wondered about. It possibly is one of his more 'normal' personalities but we better leave that for his doctors to figure out. BTW _ Does anybody remember any LGB posts going into detail about coins? Hmmmm?

-47.39
-0.45%

WOW I DID IT AGAIN. IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE. MY NEW UNDERWEAR IS FULL OF VANILLA PUDDING. SOMEBODY WANT TO CLEAN ME UP. I REALLY SHOT IT. I LUV YOU DIRK.

Steve - about a month ago, I did pose a question,
but not to you, to the assembled Kitco readership.
When I pose a question directly to you, Steven,
I'll loosen your restraints and shake you out of
your stupor. That question was "What will it take
for people to admit that they were wrong". I believe
gold had just hit $310, and I was wondering if there
was any hope left at this site. See, Steve, GSC
comes on here every week and says "sentiment is
at an all-time low on Kitco, I can't see a gold
bull everywhere" when in reality, there isn't a
gold bear anywhere. Tell me who out of this list
has been at all influenced ( or let their posts
be influenced ) by the fall in gold from $370
to $305 this year:

GSC
You
Donald
Vronsky
Allen
Dave in CO
Mooney
leaner
nick
Strad Master
tolerant1
kiwi
eldorado
sixpack
D.A.
Earl
sorry if I've left anyone out

Remember that day when Scott at the bank or someone
( not me ) posted under all of the regulars' handles and said
"That's it. Gold is at $325 or whatever, I'm
throwing in the towel." What was so amusing about
that episode was how many of those posts disappeared.
All of the people imitated went to Bart and said, "Please
remove that post, it's not mine". That specific post.
I have never seen other posts removed with such fervor.
No one wanted to be on record as saying they were giving
up at $325. It was unthinkable. "you can call me a
pervert, call me a nimrod, but never, ever, say I capitulated."
What the hell difference does it make? Well, apparently,
they have one umbilical cord which can never be severed.
They cannot lose their connection with gold at any cost.
Even if it bankrupts them. I have seen this behavior
before. It always ends with family members circling
their finger near their ear when asked to comment on it,
and it always ends in disappointment.

Fire-fighting in Japan

TUESDAY NOVEMBER 18 1997

If the Japanese authorities' readiness to permit the closure of the country's
10th largest bank signals a new realism in dealing with their festering banking
crisis, so much the better. The snag is that Hokkaido Takushoku Bank looks
too unusual a case to justify the euphoric stock market response to the news
of its demise. What is needed, if further trouble is to be avoided, is a clearer
indication that the Ministry of Finance has a strategy that goes beyond mere
fire-fighting.

Japan has already paid a high price in lost economic growth as a consequence
of its mismanagement of the banking crisis. The risk, as problems creep further
up the banking hierarchy, is that they will spill over into international markets
and pose a threat to the world financial system. In effect, we are seeing a
re-run of the 1930s on a regional basis. While a wave of competitive
devaluations sweeps through the emerging markets, the developed world's
second largest economy finds itself in the grip of worsening deflationary
forces.

Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan judges that the impact of Asian
turbulence on the US will be "modest, but not negligible". Europe is not greatly
at risk. Yet as Larry Summers, US Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, has
remarked, such verdicts depend heavily on stability being restored as soon as
possible. Since that cautionary statement was made, the Bank of Korea has
abandoned its attempt to defend the won. The squeeze on Korean companies
that have borrowed in yen will be exacerbated, so adding to the woes of the
Japanese banks.

This would not have been possible if the Japanese authorities had learned the
lesson of the US savings and loan debacle. The decision in the 1980s to allow
these loss-making institutions to attempt to trade their way out of trouble led
to a vastly increased bill for the US taxpayer. The new feature in the present
crisis is that taxpayers outside Japan are also at risk, because of financial
integration and the urge of Japanese banks to go for broke overseas.

The Japanese banking system remains inherently unstable because its solvency
is threatened whenever a falling stock market reduces the value of the banks'
equity holdings. Moreover, the threshold on the Nikkei index at which the
banks run into trouble has been creeping up as they have used up their hidden
reserves in writing down bad debts. The recent rise in the premium Japanese
banks have to pay for dollar deposits also suggests a further erosion of
international confidence since the onset of the Asian crisis. The systemic
implications are deeply worrying.

Because the integration of financial markets carries the risk of contagion the
international community has a right and an obligation to press harder for a
more coherent Japanese approach. This should entail a recognition that timely
and transparent acknowledgement of bad news is better for market
confidence than continuing fudge. More fundamentally it requires the
announcement of a plan to recapitalise the healthier parts of the banking
system, along with a rapid and brutal closure of the rest. The risks and costs
of prevarication are mounting daily.

I've read that there are groups of pathologic people on the internet *dedicated* to destroying to destroying forums such as Kitco's Discussion Group. They don't care about the issues at all. Personally, I don't mind a little joking and bantering about, but this is different.

Yesterday, I forecasted that the Dow would rise and test the 7750 level this week and that gold would stay in its dead cat bounce mode, moving up slightly for the week....

Well, the dow tested the 7750 level twice today and failed.

As much as I hate to find myself in agreement with Mr Putz, even a blind squirrel finds an occassional acorn.... the market will go back and test the 7400 support level over the rest of the week... for the very nimble day trader, tomorrow morning would be the time to buy puts.

Just for the record, I bought sp calls on thursday of last week and sold them off late this afternoon, for a double. Tomarrow, I will take this gain and buy puts.

Gold outlook remains unchanged.

No expectation of a crash...

Tolerant is spending too much time in his tequila and not enough time looking at the market... death knell my ass.

Tolerant1: Clearly the money came from somewhere, I offered three suggestions this morning. Getting the market up is one thing. What keeps it up is earnings, quarter after quarter, enough to service their debt and make a profit. That is not going to happen. The debt burden for most of these companies can only be removed by bankruptcy.

OH TESTY LESS. I'LL STILL LOVE YOU WITHOUT YOUR TESICLES. THOSE WERN'T WHAT I WAS INTERESTED IN ANYWAY. I KNOW JACKO DOESN'T CARE THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY. NOT ANY MORE!

Puetz- Korea at 488. 52 week low is 462, hit very recently.

I'LL SAY WHEN. BUT NOT BEFORE. HOLD ONTO YOUR SAK.

Mooney - I would request you go back and read what
I posted earlier today. If you have any proof that
I have posted as anyone other than 'test' today, please
offer it here. Otherwise, if you have no proof, kindly
take your speculative enterprises over to K2. Remember,
if you quit wasting space on mindless jabbering,
maybe we won't have to pay as much to hear your after
the fact self-congratulations.

Donald is spot on.... just to add a log to his fire, it didnt take all that much money to move the Japanese market yesterday. It was way oversold and looking for any reason to go up. With so much short interest all it took was a modest move upward and the shorts did the rest.

Closing the 10th largest bank was very un-Japanese. I would expect more such closings and consolidations in the next week or so. The Japanese are beginning to get some of that old time religion. Better late than never.

Would you people give it up? We are not destroying the forum.
The forum has already been destroyed by reckless prognostication
and vapid comments from the chosen. Last week, Tolerant1
speculated on whether or not Maria B. on CNBC was wearing
underwear. Did I rush on and say "Oh, I've read just about
this kind of churlish behavior. Tolerant1 is trying to
destroy a fine web site."? No, I kept my mouth shut
and wrote off another one to the Kitco fool. Ignore what
needs to be ignored, incorporate what needs to be incorporated,
and leave all the stupid conspiracy theories out of every
single thing that goes on in your life.

Gotto go now that punch-head test is ignoring me and anyway i got my oun whip to play with he likes that moony rear i guess go to lgbs house for fun you swine

REMEMBER SQUEEZE IT AND KNOCK THAT SAK AROUND ALITTLE. MORE THE PAIN THE MORE THE SQUIRT.

HEY KITCO

Your forum is being ruined by a bunch of foul mouthed 12 year olds...

please for the sake of the many people here who have something to say and an interest in sharing their views on the world do something to register users and control their postings.... otherwise you are at risk of losing something of value.

Japanese taxes: Government unveils next
stage in its policy 'striptease'

TUESDAY NOVEMBER 18 1997

By Gillian Tett in Tokyo

When the Japanese government unveils more measures today to boost a
flagging economy, the markets will be watching for signs of long-awaited tax
reductions.

They are likely to be disappointed. For although the US is now stepping up
pressure for some radical stimulus measures, today's package will focus on
longer-term supply side reforms, rather than extra spending or other
short-term boosts.

Indeed, as the measures tumble out today they are more likely to be akin to
another round in a longer running policy "striptease" - rather than a radical
change in direction.

It started last month, when the government made vague pledges to take
measures to boost the economy, including a reform of the corporate tax
regime and property law changes.

Last week more details trickled out: the government pledged, for example, to
launch a UK-style private finance initiative and cuts in internet and postal
charges.

However, today's package, which has been drawn up by the Economic
Planning Agency, will add more meat on those bones. It will cobble together a
motley collection of 100 old and new reform proposals into a 25-page
document. These will include:

Measures to boost Japan's ailing property market, by changing the law
to allow special purpose companies for securitisation to be set up.
Laws governing land use will also be eased.


Help for Japan's small and medium-sized enterprises, such as additional
forms of finance and loans for these smaller companies. These have
been ailing recently and have found it difficult to raise finance from
banks.


Steps to promote the "globalisation" of Japan's industry, by bringing
industrial standards into line with international norms in areas ranging
from construction to the transport sector.


Reaffirmation of Japan's commitment to its planned "big bang"
deregulation process. It will be announced, for example, that life
assurance companies will start distributing investment trusts soon.


Reaffirmation of Japan's other deregulation plans, in areas such as
telecommunications.


Few of these measures are entirely new.

But most are likely to be welcomed in the longer term by analysts - and by the
US government, which has long been pushing for faster market-based reforms
in Japan.

But the problem is that few economists expect the reforms in themselves to
deliver much of a short-term economic boost.

Consequently, the real focus of attention will shift to the next round of the
policy process - negotiations between politicians and Ministry of Finance
about next year's change to the tax regime.

For the moment, the Finance Ministry remains opposed to net tax reductions
or to suggestions that tax cuts could be financed by issuing new bonds.

But pressure for these cuts is building: Larry Summers, US deputy Treasury
secretary, appears to have called for such measures in a meeting with the
Japanese government yesterday, and these calls are supported by some in the
ruling Liberal Democratic party.

Consequently, the government is likely to give hints today that it is preparing
reforms in areas such as corporate and property tax. It may even indicate that
it is considering more radical measures.

But the details will probably not emerge until the tax negotiations are
concluded next month. The policy striptease is far from over.

OFF!

TEST, I'M STILL WAITING FOR YOU. DON'T BE TOOOOOOO LONG IN THAT PLACE. YOU'LL JUST RUIN MY DISPOSITION!

What are we trying to save here, a forum of losers and predicting the markets wrong every time. Good-bye and good riddens.

CUM TO PAPA

Bart; LOOK, less bandwidth! I don't think this is what you had in mind though! REGISTRATION PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

The Nikkei was oversold. If I would have suggested
that to anyone this weekend, I would have been
laughed off the site. Now, it's obvious. You
people are great at Monday afternoon quarterbacking.

But put your record out there for people to see.

Late last year and early this year, despite constant
harassment and threats against my job and my health,
I said gold to $350 and then to $325.
Gold reached $325 on July 7, 1997

Shortly after July 7, I said gold would be at
$325 on 7/29/97.
Gold closed at $325.80 on 7/29/97.

On September 23, 1997, I said gold would be
at $310 on or before 10/23/97.

Gold closed at $310 on 10/24/97.

Starting around two weeks ago, just
after the webmaster got into the prediction
game, I said gold would be at $300 soon,
very soon.

Gold went to $300 on 11/14/97.

Who was right about Flag? Who correctly called
the rise ( and fall, after Mooney said he was
in ) of T.IC? Who named the country, the exact
country, that was selling gold ONE DAY before the
official announcement? Who pointed out first
that leaner was RJ2? Who pointed out first
that Mooney was howler? Who pointed out first that
JTF was behind ANOTHER? Who pointed out first that
Mooney was foolish in telling people to average down
starting from $380, oldman was foolish in calling
the bottom at $350, aurophile was foolish in calling
the bottom at $345, that glenn was foolish in calling
the bottom at $340, that GSC was foolish in calling
the bottom every day? Who pointed out first that
Big Trader was complete crap, that nick was complete
crap? Who was one of the first people to advocate registration?

Who is ruining the site?
Who is persona non gratis on the site?
Where is gold?
Where is the Dow?
Who was right?
Who was wrong?

NEED SOME WHERE TO STICK IT. CUM HERE TESTY

Japan market had zero reason to go up. When it slides down it will go clean through 15000. This "fix" will exacerbate the inevitable. Deflation is the market de jour.

lgb i know you got some kids but i love you anyway your strong and sure got a nice handle come see me you know everything you are my man you can give it to me bring some coins we can play alnight with them oh i love you lgb talk to me

OH TESTY LESS, WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER ME? KISSY KISSY!

In your 21:09, you asked if anyone recalled LGB commenting on coins...

Date: Mon Nov 17 1997 14:25
LGB ( @ CB ) ID#269409:
CB, with all due respect, the coins you mention are not for the
"average" Gold investor. I can't disagree with you that all the coins
you mentioned are great buy's presently, and have the potential for
explosive gains.
The problem is that those coins should simply not be purchased by
investors who don't have some relatively extensive numismatic expertise.
You have to be able to spot counterfits, know who to deal with,
understand the market intimately, etc etc. For the "average" investor
who isn't a Numismatist, and isn't interested in becoming one, common
date "Saints" would be the way to go.

Date: Mon Nov 17 1997 13:44
LGB ( Gold Coin Recommendation, St. Gaudens ) ID#269409:
OK, events of recent week's have proven the validity of the
recommendations I've been trying to make re Gold coins. Namely, that you
should buy the Gold St. Gaudens double Eagles from the early 1920's in
lieu of the common modern bullion coins.
As Gold continues it's free fall, the Numismatic common $20 pieces, have
held firm in price and now, are on the rise!! In the face of falling
Gold prices!! How can this be?
Simple. Firstly, The "Saint", is a highly prized collector coin, though
of rather large mintage and readily available, it is considered the most
beautiful coin ever minted by most Numismaticists.
Secondly, it has historically outperformed Gold bullion coins in both
rising and falling markets. In rising markets it rises further, and
faster, than bullion, exponentially. A conservative form of leverage
using physical coin in your posession. VERY attractive.
In falling markets ( as we have now ) the "Saint" resists value drops,
as it hits it's Numismatic floor. Remember, NO MORE "Saints" will EVER
be minted. Bullion coins on the other hand, are minted in the millions
yearly, with virtually unlimited production capacity to meet demand.
Thirdly, when congress and our pal Roosevelt required U.S. citizens to
turn in their Gold ( isn't it ironic that we now are minting a GOLD
commemorative coin for Roosevelt! ) , anyway, when the Gold coins were
called in, guess what? Numismatic coins were EXEMPTED from recall. The
folks who had the foresight to but "Saints" when Gold bullion could not
be owned by U.S. citizens, are the ONLY major group of long term gold
coin investors who really made a good profit during our century.
Gold's price upon becoming available as bullion to the American public
once again, after a year or so of stabilization ( say late 1974 ) , has
been a losing investment for any buy and hold investor since that time,
when you look at it's purchasing power relative to such essentials as
Housing, food, transportation, insurance, gasoline, and energy prices.
Fourthly, with the "Saint's" you hold beauty and history in your hand.
Pride and enjoyment of owndership, an intangible asset, true, but of
value nevertheless.
Fithly, I made a number of calls this morning to coin dealers that I
work with frequently, to get quotes on American Eagles, Maple Leafs, and
Saint Gaudens. Here's what I found. Contrary to what's been posted on
this forum recently, virtually ALL the dealers had the common bullion
coins in stock and ready for delivery at $318 to $323 price range. (
less for the lowly Kruggerand of course ) No shortage, and no problems
with delivery.
But the "Saint Gaudens"?? Most of the dealers who advertise them have
run out of inventory, and those that DID have them had RAISED their
prices about $10.0 a coin from where they were 3 weeks ago ( last time I
checked ) during a time when Gold has taken another big dive! When I
inquired about this, the dealers all said that the "Saints" are in such
demand that they have to charge more because it costs them more to get
ahold of them.
Hmmm, a Gold coin that rises when Gold falls? And rises MORE than
bullion when Gold rises? And has a firm floor? You see why I recommend
Numismatic coins. I have the exact same recommendation for Silver. Skip
the "junk" silver and spend a little more to get Morgan Silver dollars,
Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves. The same principles apply,
albeit at a diminished level ( due to the many millions of those coins
minted )
That's my case for Numismatic Gold. Personally, I'd put most of my
physical holdings in it, with some diversification into common bullion
for liquidity purposes. That's what I'm doing and so far, having bought
into Silver at $4.20 to $4.40 in July, we're already looking at big
gains. The "Saints" I've bought this year are in the money even with
Gold's price falling! Consider it Kitcoites....
New & Improved LGB

TESTY LESS ONE, I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO IS RIGHT HERE. I'M RIGHT HERE FOR YOU. KISSY KISSY.

http://news.bbc.co.uk:80/hi/english/business/newsid_31000/31917.stm

test: You are getting better at explaining your points. Now how about telling us when gold will go up. It is nearly at a twenty year low.

Do you really expect it to go to 280 -- 260 -- 240 -- 220 -- 200? When will you say gold is low enough?

I get a kick out of your thinking I am ANOTHER. There is clearly one area that you are not expert in -- and that is evaluating writing style. ANOTHER was not even brought up in the same country you were brought up in -- but you and I were!

Monday November 17, 6:42 pm Eastern Time

U.S. public warms to Wall Street in 1997 - Harris

NEW YORK, Nov 17 ( Reuters ) - Wall Street's image with the U.S. public has improved substantially over the past 12 months, and 80 percent of Americans now believe the financial services center benefits the country, a survey showed.

Fewer people think Wall Street is ``dominated by greed and selfishness'' today, and more believe it is a beneficial influence, according to results of a Harris Poll, which surveyed 1,003 adults nationwide during October.

The reasons behind the shift in public sentiment toward the financial industry were not clear, but the number of people who think Wall Street harms the country has fallen to 13 percent this year from 22 percent last year, Harris said.

``Whether this reflects the substantial increase in the stock market, or the absence of insider trading or other scandals, is not clear,'' Louis Harris and Associates Inc said. ``But the improvement in Wall Street's image is strong.''

The survey showed that in 1997, the number of people who think Wall Street benefits the United States rose to 80 percent from 70 percent.

The number of people who believe Wall Street is ruled by greed fell to 52 percent from 61 percent a year ago, it said.

Those who think ``most people on Wall Street would be willing to break the law if they believed they could make a lot of money and get away with it,'' fell to 56 percent from 64 percent, according to the survey.

The number of people who believe ``Wall Street only cares about making money and absolutely nothing else,'' also declined to 48 percent this year from 57 percent.

Those who believe that ``in general people on Wall Street are as honest and moral as other people'' have increased to 51 percent from 43 percent, the survey showed.

And a majority of 51 percent believe successful people on Wall Street deserve to make the kind of money they earn.

But Harris said the survey also showed only 39 percent of all adults think that ``in general what is good for Wall Street is good for the country.''

Sorry guys, parents can't control some of our newcomers and I don't have time to scroll through all this nonsense.

Bart, please registration ASAP. I hope that the registration process will impose on each post a login-id selected at registration time. No more confusion who posted what.

See you all when this nonsense is over

take care - Miro

Around the world? One way?

************************ Bart@Kitco ****************************

Your website has not only gone to the dogs,
But continues to get worse, at an accelerating pace.

If you will not choose to remove, these antagonists yourself,
You will find that many solid regulars, will remove themselves.

You will end up with a website,
Full of morons, talking to themselves.
And little talk of gold.

This site has already lost many bright minds,
Due to this constant barrage, we are inflicted with.
And will no doubt lose more.

If it is your choice, to let this antagonism exist,
Then you will have the privilege,
Of watching one of the webs - best gold discussion forums
Turn to an empty forum of nutters.

The choice is not up to the many viewers,
Who come here,
To further their knowledge, of the history of gold.
But up to you.
As it is your house.

You need to do some house cleaning.
Or your house, will not be a nice place to visit.

This forum is here for the many,
To discuss, dissect and analyze,
The direction that gold travels.
To have opposing opinions, different ideas,
Is stimulating and healthy.

But to see what is going on here,
Is not healthy.
And will result in the abandonment,
Of this formerly informative site.

Some here are putting all their time,
And energy and efforts to achieve,
This demise of your forum.

The choice now is yours,
And I will concur with your choice.
But be it, that you choose to do nothing,
Then you seek your own demise.

As I, like the many others, that preceded me,
Will seek a better place to talk and discuss.
And if the many others, who also exist here,
Become of the same opinion.

Then you will have allowed,
The detractors here, victory,
And your site,
Will be as nothing - empty and cold.

Nick ( @Aussie ) : Well said.

nick i need some house cleaning come to my house bring a whip i just love talking about gold yum yum yummy

NICK THATS FOR YOU LOSER. WHAT MAKES YOU SO SMART. BEING A LOSER. YA THATS SMART. GO HAVE SOME FUN AND JACK IT WHILE IT'S STILL THERE.

DON'T CUM BACK

YES TESTY LESS ONE, TELL ME WHEN 'IT'S' GOING UP! TELL ME ALL ABOUT IT! AND TELL ME 'ANOTHER' DOESN'T EXIST. TELL ME ALL YOUR WHISPERING ( I CAN'T HEAR YOU! ) LIES! I JUST LOVE IT! KISSY KISSY!

To all,
Without a doubt all this noise is a concentrated effort to disrupt this site. Why also would any poster interested only in disrupting Kitco spent this much time and effort on posting such idiocy.
Having said that, if any quality posters leave we allow those idiots to succeed. Simply don't read their posts. Give them no satisfaction of having your attention.

Jin: I apologize for what individuals frpm my own country are doing to this site -- sadly in disarray. Please do not leave -- Bart will have a solution soon, I think. It is hard for me to accept that on a site such as this with international posters -- that one Country --namely mine -- could have such children. Does not say much for America, does it?

It's not Bart's fault at all. Even my own children are better behaved.

GO GET EM DIRK. SQUIRT SQUIRT SHOOT SHOOT

Bart,

I am for registration. Maybee you should have an on site survey for the averaging of cost for the service or do you already have an amount in mind.

Would be nice to know and maybee it would make some posters really appreciate this site.

We have been lucky so far but I must say that some posters should be charge more for the abusive garbage. With registration you will know where it comes from.

Criticism = the art of making a reasonned judgement, a critical appreciation

Abuse = improper treatment; a corrupt practice; rude language

I DO LOVE YOU SHEK CAMEL JOCKEY

Crystal Ball...are you still here? Question? What is the going rate for Morgan Silver Dollars, Mercury Dimes and Walling Liberty Halves?
Can anyone tell me?

All,
Two things will happen.
1. After a day or two, idiot posters will get bored and leave.
2. Idiot posters will stay on and continue their assult, leading me to believe that someone has a very strong reason to attack gold and this site. Why? Are we reaching the point of a major change in gold price direction?
Perhaps.

I will LOVER BOY. Just give me your email address. You Hunk.

Shek: You may be right -- the "noise" posts have increased dramatically. Usually they occur at times of stress, full moon, or just after a post of major import. This time I don't have a clue what it is.

Perhaps the gold bear is nearly over, and some of the noisemakers know it but cannot do anything to prevent the inevitable.

Can't continue much longer can it?

my slush box is waiting for jake. big big jack

Ever seen one of those IBM Dennis Leary commercials where he tells punks like you to get off the net and let the business of the world be conducted by adults? No one cares about you. No one cares about your needs. No one cares if you stay or leave. Your parents obviously don't care enough to know what you do at night. Why don't you take a good look at yourselves and find your palces in society. We care as little about you as your parents.

JIN, I share JTF's concern and regret for the behavior of these people. They are not very wise and and do disgrace our country.

IT'S PISTOL WHIP NIGHT

Hepcat: Whatever ID you are -- Now you know what we feel like -- this time you find yourself on the other side.

Notice a common tone to the sick posters? They sound as if they came out of the same hole and are posting from the same location with the same motive - to disrupt this site.

LOVER BOY,
It's Shek, prenounced Scheck, not SHEIK ( as in Arab or other Muslim use ) .

what is all this homo stuff, i thought this was a gold forum?

I have been lurking off and on for eight month's and have enjoyed the wealth of information exchanged here. BUT, until Bart and company can fix this system we need to think about an alternitive site. This is getting pretty sick and sometimes I leave the posts on the monitor after logging off. I would like to think my family could view anything posted here. Thank you.

What a day and night. Nick, your comments were perfect, I agree
100%.

Bart: Put me down for the money, I'm for the long form and registration.

Here's my measurements. 36 triple D bust and a 23 inch waste. Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness. For switch hitters I got a big 13 inch. any way you want it baby.

The world central banks, in a move designed to quiet conspiracy talk on gold moves downward, have their children infiltrate and attack Kitco discussion group.

HighRise: I agree - the writing style is of only one source. Strikes me as someone who is panicked about something.

Pull down your pants and let me see it. And then i want to see you do it in front of me.

gold goes down you need good whip and some fun nothing wrong with that i sell gold all the time to buy drugs and beat women its fun and we got no law in usa look you can even kill kids my fun is private i heard people at kitco are losers so i came for some fun you all welcome to my house its full of gold taps and whips we can play all night america is great we make our own laws i think kitco is great will be every hour every day forever

Bart:

See the Telecommunications Act, Section 502, which relates specifically to what is happening here. To paraphrase:

"The transmission of any comment, request, suggestion, proposal,..., which is obscene or indecent, is punishable by fines up to $200,000.00."

Please proceed.

Thanks,

Dave

anonymous: We have a disrupter in our midst. Please hang in there.

Bart - you have a vote from me to have registration w/passwords to post

Bart:

I am not an attorney but my guess would be that people deliberately disrupting this site and thus destroying your marketing efforts would be liable for some monetary damages. I am sure that you are doing your best to track the origin of the messages and will be successful in your efforts. When you do locate the person or persons responsible, please do begin a civil action against them or their parents, if as is likely, they turn out to be underage. Good luck.

JTF
There is a distinct lack of sanity,
At this site today, and recently.

From both sides.
From the normal viewers, for putting up with what is going on.
And from the other side, for doing what they are doing.

If time is precious,
Then I am wasting my time being here.

And that is what the antagonists,
Wish to achieve.

When we have all gone,
They will have the sandlot to themselves.

They will then become sad and seek a new sandlot,
As they will have no one to chide and deride.

They have an ultimate goal
Which is un-forfilling.

To seek the destruction,
Of the dissemination of knowledge.

To my mind there is a war,
Going on in Kitco.
Seeking the disbandment of the followers.

The intelligent way in which this has been approached.
Leads me to believe,
That these antagonists,
Are no normal persons,
But an organised body.

IF YOU BARK LOAD ENOUGH YOU CAN SEE NOT TOUCH MY PRECIOUS SNATCH.

JEANNIE,
You are such a lady!

I had about given up on this site for tonight. As to your question. It really depends on dates, mints, degree of preservation ( mint state, vs. circulated ) and grading service ( NGC, PCGS ) or raw ( not slabbed )
But for common dates in general, you can get really nice MS65 or 66 Mercs with full split bands for as little as $35-$50, MS65 Walkers for $75-$100, and MS65 Morgans for $80-$100

Hey Puetz, I thought we promised to be nice to each other now? What's this accusation about me being "test"?? "Test" is QUITE obviously Hepcat, and I'm surprised you can't read his style. I havn't posted as anyone but me today, as Bart is hereby authorized to confirm!! Now cut it out with these accusations or I'm gonna get "testy" ( pun intended ) again!

( P.S. How bout that full Moon "crash" prediction my Lunar lovin pal! )

( P.S.S. You KNOW the site has gotten bad when even LGB now has to clamor for site registration! I think the Moron posts are from the same guy who was making death threats on me the past few weeks here.. just an opinion, I'd dearly move to know who it is, anyway, bring on the registration Bart and the sooner the better..... )

P.S.S.S. Bart, I am thankful for the site though... too many whiners and not enough accolades to you for providing it.

i can send you misanthrops to anyone of several excellent gay or sexually oriented "chat's" where you can be vigorously entertained by hoards of other sexually dysfunctionals,
better if you would go there voluntarily!
you are not welcome here
you are not appreaciated
you are not entertaining
YOU ARE PITIED

"To seek the destruction,
Of the dissemination of knowledge."

Looks that way to me and I don't think they are kids, they refer to posters like Another.

From Proverbs...Folly is a joy to him who has no sense. Why should a fool have a price in his hand to buy wisdom, when he has no mind?

thanks Cystal Ball, i have capped out on gold, and would like to add some silver to my stash.
( p.s. i have very good inside information that the next 6 mos will see the demise of paper, and the startling rebound for gold that we have been expecting )

All: This apparently organized attempt at disruption says more than any indicator I know. I wonder if the disruptor ( s ) know that it will be much harder to do this very soon -- worst disruption I've seen yet -- and anyone reading the posts tonight will suspect that the gold bear will be over very soon.

The contrary indicator of Kitco "noise".

If this disruptive effort is indeed by someone wishing to degenerate the level of exchange on Kitco, and to make serious posters leave, than I will remaind all an old Spanish proverb:
"A dieing bull fights hardest before he falls"

Let your hair down and drop your trosers for an erection. Sounds like a good deal of fun.

Now that I read back through the obscenities, I KNOW it's the same person who's been making obscene posts in my direction for weeks. Same all caps style, same mentality, same vocabulary, same long headers in the e mail line, same time of day.

Kitcoites, how is that that not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU ever complained when this guy was making death threats and throwing obscenities my way for the past few weeks and now suddenly everyone has a major attack of offended pride at the gross site disruption? I'm as offended by the hypocrisy as I am with this Lunatic poster.

While I hope the poster can be tracked down and prosecuted, I lso think you ought to consider doling out the criticism consistently toward those who toss out such garbage, even if said garbage is directed at a non "DieHard Goldbug". Even if said poster is agressive and annoying in their debating style. After all, no matter what you think of the LGB and his opinions, I have never posted obsceinities or threats, or absolute senseless garbage etc. IMHO.

Registration.... yes

I just read the Wanniski On The Gold Standard on gold-eagle...I thought it was excellent. Anybody else read it?, thoughts?

LGB: How does it feel to be on the "other side" with the rest of us -- even Hepcat -- who is "test" only part of the time -- and "free text" part of the time?

HighRise,
Excellent,
Obviously, the idiot posters have followed this site for some time and that's how they know of ANOTHER. Also why did they attacked him personally, when though ANOTHER didn't even post today.
Are they trying somehow to discredit him? If so than why?
Very interesting!

Pegasus Gold dropped 66% because they closed their
Austrailian mine. The loss is something like $350Mill.
Sign of the times for the gold mining industry.

My pleasure to be of service. Check out the Coin Dealer Newsletter
http://www.numismatists.com/cdn.html
Orders by mail, phone or fax should be directed to:
CDN Publications, P.O. Box 7939, Torrance, CA 90504, tel: 310-515-7369,
fax 310-515-7534
Mention NUMISMATISTS ONLINE to receive your free NUMISMATIC DEALER
DIRECTORY
Visit the COIN DEALER Newsletter on the Web!
http://www.greysheet.com

It'll take a lot of that buy-and-hold money to pay those fines per the Telecommunications Act, Section 502. Didn't Slick Willie sign that one back in Feb.?

Bart, please post the pictures of the offender ASAP.

keep it unregistered...
if you don't you will loose some very important posters whose anonymity is vital. these disrupters come and go, ultimately they go, as long as we don't entertain them.

Did you see the article I posted yesterday from NY Post re: Wanniski and AG?

Notice how the "noise" is dropping off? The mere fact that we keep posting is wearing whoever it is down. What makes Kitco such a great site is that we have so many diverse posters, and the sheer number of posters is drowning out the noise!

Think of how much better we would be -- Bart --- if we did have a little more security. The bandwidth would drop off -- too!

Try the following sites for good info.
on slabbed/ certified coins, prices.


http://208.222.111.7/prices/

http://www.vccoin.com

http://www.jax-inter.net/coin/

I have been reading the postings here at Kitco for several weeks now and from time to time wondered why people seemed to congratulate themselves on days free from cheap shots and personal comments. Today gold seems weak and the postings take on the tone one expects to find on the walls of public urinals frequented by queers, fags and assorted teen-aged perverts. Is there a connection? or has a group of them really come here to take advantage intentionally of your forum to massage their various perversions?

An avid follower of the metals markets for many years, I was happy to discover this site and hear others with a similar interest. I would agree with many level-headed posters lately who say that there seems to be some kind of a low point defining itself now in the metals markets with a corresponding frothy optimism in the stock market. However, noone ( except perhaps the great seer in the sky ) can say for sure exactly what will unfold and when. On the other hand, those with insider knowledge do very well thank. ( as seen the day of the PPI report when gold began falling 30 minutes or so before the report was released-a fact which was noted and commented on here ) Therefore, why not lighten up a bit on the adolescent forecasts about what may happen in the near term. After all, even when someone does manage to hit it right, each one of us is still responsible for our own investment decisions and we all suspect that there must have been a bit of luck involved anyway.

For the record, I also would endorse some form of registration to get rid of these moronic imbeciles and allow those with something interesting to say to say it. Perhaps we should all consider doing away with some of the secrecy about identities. After all, in any form of communication one must take into account who is communicating and to whom. How can we pretend to do so if we each know we are anonymous and further, know not whom we address. In any case, those posters with something valuable to offer usually do so under their own identities...Vronsky, John K. ( the K was revealed on the Gold Eagle site today ) Jon Steven Kaplan at Gold Mining Outlook etc. I for one would gladly release my own ID to know in return who is Tolerant1, LGB, Nick, Allen in USA, Crystal Ball, etc.

For all followers here is the news. Hepcat know supports registration.
Aggressive poster who's ego squirts out the end of his knob, ah yeh.
Hepcat and LGB are angels compared to this illinformed turkey. For those
who missed it.
Date: Mon Nov 17 1997 17:10
Hepcat ( Dow analysis ) ID#39845:
Sorry about the bad news guys. It is down from here give or take 50
There is no more strength left in this rally. For Dow to truly awaken
it would need another 350 rise. It had that chance today. It didnt take it. Look out followers
of LGB, you might need a shovel to pick up the
pieces after this train runs through his bravado.

Another is bluffing and is one wild made up story that you people have bought into. The fan fair JTF started is one way to get attention. But this guy is sick as anyone posting offense material. JTF is a dork. It's about time you guys wise up to this fake.

Crystal: Yes. Something must be up for such a pubilc display. I am sure Mr. Greenspan does not appreciate it one bit.

This is like those days when there is a lot of action and a need to get on line, or get to your broker, or log on at Kitco and you can't. Always blamed on some odd thing like birds on the line in Cleveland. Do they still have those 200 young computer whizzes in the Whitehouse?

Prudent: Can you at least give us a hint at what sort of inside information you have on the shift away from paper?

The effective deadline of 1/1/98 for when the clock stops for the 1/1/99 ECU/EMU "go live"?

Re your question "How does it feel to be on the other side..." I have never tried to be an intentional disrupter here. What I have done is to be an agressive advocate for common sense, reasoned debate, balance, looking at the obverse of the "Gold ) coin, etc. If I've been satirical, abrasive, agressive, annoying, etc. in my style, that's my style. I doesn't change the fact that my posts have been substantive and have engaged the subjects being posed by others most of the time.

Like Hepcat, I think there's a definite double standard here, which I find somewhat hypocritical. I havn't been here long enough to view whatever came before June, but I found the Hepper's posts to be on target, yet he came under incredibly withering attack, ( as I have ) , partly due to style and personality, yes, but partly I think ( if we be honest ) due to the fact that he was pushing truth in the faces of those hwo don't want to hear it.

You gotta admit, his Gold calls have been WAY MORE ACCURATE than anyone else's here , including the "Pro" analysts.

( Thanks, George, for your reply. )

Here in case it's of any interest is an article from Saturday's Financial Times ( London ) . Best wishes to all. Peter.

Gold: Rough times for prospectors

SATURDAY NOVEMBER 15 1997

Anybody treating gold as an investment

over the past decade has had a rough

time. The price, which on Friday dipped

below $300 an ounce, is almost back to

the nadir seen in 1985. Fortunately, in

the west at least, most private investors

long ago concluded there was little point

owning an asset that paid no dividend

and whose prospects of capital growth

were dubious. There is, of course, the

pleasure of retrieving an ingot from the

safe and feeling its weight. But that

pales against looking at a Picasso - so

investors who are happy to do without

dividends are probably better off with

art.

The worries pummelling gold stem from

the fact that central banks - first the Dutch, then the Australians and the Swiss -

are reaching the same conclusion that gold is a pretty useless investment.

Indeed, Union Bank of Switzerland calculates that the top 12 gold holders lose

$15bn a year in interest by hoarding the yellow metal. With central banks

owning 35,000 tonnes - equivalent to 10 years global demand - it is easy to see

why bears are having a field day.

Nobody, of course, expects all this gold to flood the market in one go. Indeed,

looking on the bright side, a few hundred tonnes a year is probably needed to

balance supply and demand as things stand. Moroever, if prices fall further,

demand for jewellery will pick up, gold mines will close marginal shafts and few

new mines will be sunk - making even more space for central bank sales. Gold

may not have reached rock bottom but there cannot be far to go.

thanks gent's, i will pursue your leads.
( p.s. anyone here read the McAlvany Intelligence Advisor? )

READY WHEN YOU ARE JTF. WHAT SCRIPT WILL YOU PLAY NEXT TIME.

You make good points. I also agree with Prudent that there may be some contributors who have valid reasons for needing to remain anonymous, but I have nothing to hide and don't mind giving out my e-mail address: Avikey@aol.com

Very interesting article, creation of world's largets Gold co. http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971117/safrica_goldco_2.html

Hepcat: Thanks for coming in from the cold. You are a very engaging fellow when you want to be.

Donald:

It is interesting that the Malaysian PM finds a sympathetic ear in the French Pres. and perhaps the IMF.

At first I thought that it was extraordinary that the IMF would be looking into currency speculators to see if they were a problem which could be eliminated or a necessary evil. The more I thought about it the more I became convinced that speculators are actually to be feared by central powers because they are they represent a large pool of intelligent capital that cares not for agendas but only for profit. It is this quest for profit that leads them to exploit policies which are untenable. This unrelentless force, must scare the heck out of those policy makers that come up with schemes to further their agendas, but are far from sound in an economic sense.

It is an appropriate time to revisit this topic because it appears that the second phase of currency destruction in Southeast Asia is getting underway. Yesterday the Korean Won passed through the 1000 / USD mark which had previously been a line in the sand. The last quote that I saw was 1012. Should the Won continue to devalue this will be extremely important because Korea is a direct competitor with Japan on a host of mid tech value added products. If the Koreans throw in the towel, which appears most likely, Japan will have no choice but to devalue in kind.

I do not know what the US response will be to a devalued Yen ( 140?? ) but there are certain groups ( automotive companies, heavy equipment manufacturers, consumer electronics etc ) that will lose significant market share as a result.

If this comes to pass there will be two large competing forces at work in the US. The first will be a booming domestic economy, further fueled by declining interest rates, the second will be certain sectors ravaged by the competitive devaluations.

Much thinking to be done.

lgb,hepcat i love you both come to my house on the hill its called candymans bluff i know you will like high you will be forever the whips will fly oh i love kitco

If you think that e mail messages cannot be traced, then think again. You may find your posts turned over to your employers, and to a district attorney. In addition, your name will be in the papers and all over the internet.

PH, I'll glady post my ID if registration is done in such a way as to preclude any old wandering cybermoron from reading the site. You think after telling everyone what my precious metals holdings are ( which I hold at home ) I want every lunatic, Moron, whacko out there to be able to track me down? I DON'T think so. Newsletter and site sellers are the ones who post their E mail ID's for the most part. Other's do so who aren't sharing much personal info here.

Peter: --did you know that those banks who actually did sell gold are virtually bankrupt, i.e. austrailia, holland, belgium? and had to raise cash.
--did you know that as western banks unload gold all the major asian players are scooping it up as fast as they can, esp. China, Tiwan, Hong Kong, Thialand etc.

+440.66
+2.71%

Just back from a week in Chicago and W. Lafayette, IN. Can anyone tell me the days of John K postings. I'd like to read them. By the way, it never fails. Whenever, I leave town the markets start jumping.

I think just a password to get into the site would suffice. If it has to cost a few bucks so what. I agree with the thoughts that stipulate that anonymity is important to some. LGB makes some relevant points in that direction as well as certain privacy, home issues.

Your a bunch of stupid idiots. You people will never understand. The system is not allowed to fail. Japan is not going to hell and you guys will eat s_ it. Japan up again. Where is Puetz. Nick where is your crash indicators. All of you act like fools. This site would do best if it was closed.

Euro currency has little to do with it, the paper tiger burns before they are in fully positioned, ( and thank god for that, some of us may survive ) Certain individuals make statements PUBLICLY, that are SIGNALS to insiders. Such statements have been made. Although the timing may vary the message is that 98 will see major havok.

IDT: Go to gold-eagle.com, go to the digest section and click on the CURRENCY CHAOS article listed.

You will find John's article their.

Supply-Side Economics Summer School Lesson #2

Memo To: Students of Supply-Side University
From: Jude Wanniski
Re: Who Should Hold the Gold?

Karl Marx
Very few opponents of "a gold standard" know what it is or how it works or how many different ways there are to link paper money to gold. The question arises again and again: "How can we be on a gold standard when there is so little gold and so much money needed to finance this enormous world economy?" The answer is that it is the function of the central bank only to maintain the "standard," the "unit of account," and the rest of the world will create its own money around that standard. I first learned this from Karl Marx, who was a great fan of David Ricardo and the gold standard. Marx pointed out that in any village of Europe, everything for sale was quoted in terms of the gold price, even though there was not an ounce of gold within many miles of the village. Gold provided a common understanding of the value of all things, enabling people to reckon how many chickens they would have to bring to market to sell in order to exchange for so many gallons of milk or sticks of lumber.

It is possible to live without posting here. The real question or atleast the first question is whether or not this site works after midnight tonight.

Why are you here?

And always looking for that thalium spiked drink some moron
threatened to give me.Damaging news to hit news-stand soon.
But not via my lips.

Maana. Gotta go to work in 7 hours. Wonder where my pal  is tonight? To all - Your health!

Dave the problem is that what country did the offense take place and in that country is it an offense etc etc etc

I notice the disruptive propaganda machine is getting rather desperate. I take this to mean there is not much longer to go!

Very Good!
gold is not for profit ( normally ) , it is for safety and stability.

This site is a disaster to ones financial health. It need not exist. The B.S. is sky high. You want more.

The Marxist know the value of Gold. They have not forgotten.

Note: only a part of that quote was Karl Marx.

Thank you -10c ( @north ) for the lead to this site excellent!!!

It Could be called GOLD ECONOMICS 101

A must read by all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: Sat Nov 15 1997 20:29

-10 c ( @north ) ID#204295:

supply-side economics

inflation, deflation, Gold as a Constant,

http://www.polyconomics.com/univ.htm

weekend school in supply-side economics

June 20, 1997

Supply-Side Economics Summer School Lesson #2

Memo To: Students of Supply-Side University

From: Jude Wanniski

Re: Who Should Hold the Gold?

There will always be folks that resort to nonsense and name calling. It is the result of a society that values free speech. Unfortunately it does not preclude those that have little to say from voicing an opinion. There is no freedom that doesn't carry some price.

I think many are missing one key aspect of gold's recent decline. It has fallen approximately 17.6% against the US dollar in the past year. This figure is remarkably close to the 17% rise the US dollar has made against the Duestchmark, and the 19% ( and climbing ) rise against the yen. The US dollar is rising in value relative to other currencies, and gold is effectively a currency. The amount of the dollar's rise is similar from currency to currency. How long and how high will the dollar go?? I don't know, but it can't climb forever. I expect gold to test $285.00 before we see any change.

Take the halo off your head. Take your business somewhere else.

A weird set of discussions going on here, for a gold site. Fortunately, I scrolled WAY back and found the adulescent set of postings, and the fact that Bart will be installing registration. Couldn't happen soon enough! Must be the full moon syndrome. These others wouldn't be able to build an erector set! However, I do now know why sabot slugs were invented.

My thoughts are the usual in that one should follow the money trail. I do think that it should not be very long before the bottom is reached in gold. It may be a while though before it moves. That all depends on how well they take care of their paper stuffs. As others have said, it truly is a game of confidence, and as has been seen in other countries, that confidence can literally disappear overnight. They will protect the reserve currency to the best of their ability. And do not forget that ALL the currencies and paper are intrinsically tied together to one extent or another. What you may be seeing is simply games. If it isn't, then be prepared for all hell to break loose! It isn't like there aren't major, but basic, reasons for real problems to be in existence, all the smiley faces be damned! Just don't be one of the damned!

Don't let the Turkeys get you down. Best to totally ignore them. Bart will get the registration working and the world will be fine. At least here. Perhaps I'll drop in more then.

To parrot someone else here; Away, to sniff out the money trail......

If you haven't yet I would do now. We are going up, Up, and...

AWAY!!!

eyond

Ken: This is an extremely valuable site. It provides an opportunity for people to express their opinions and provide some inforamtion if they have any. Due diligence is always necessary. I don't agree with everything here but I'm sure happy that are views different than my own to balance out some of my own thinking. ( I don't appreciate the obsene postings though. )

Date: Mon Nov 17 1997 23:23

Ken Donovan ( Highrise, I've been told of what goes on here. )

ID#274159:

"Then why did you come here? I really would like to know. "

"This site is a disaster to ones financial health. It need not

exist. The B.S. is sky high."

So again why are you here?

"You want more."

I did not ask what you disliked, I ask why are you here?

If you feel that way,

Why are you here?

* prudent ( @home ) ID#224267:

* Peter: --did you know that those banks who actually did sell gold

* are virtually bankrupt, i.e. austrailia, holland, belgium? and had to

* raise cash.

* --did you know that as western banks unload gold all the major * asian players are scooping it up as fast as they can, esp. China,

* Tiwan, Hong Kong, Thialand etc.

Dear prudent, many thanks for your prompt reply. No I didn't know ( at least, not with any certainty or precision ) the things you say. But I am certainly interested. ( I am long gold mutuals, to a tiny extent. )

Best wishes, Peter.

Good post, well explained, the direct and indirect relationships of currencies which includes Gold.
Thank you

LGB: Your sudden interest in civilized discourse is all the more amusing in light of your past history. Since I seldom read your comments or others directed to you, I do not know of physical threats to you personally. If they ocurred, they are deplorable. No question about it.

Equally deplorable are your choice of words and expressions such as: "bitch slap", "moron" or "hit ... like a stepchild"???

Recognise that a keyboard is a blunt instrument with very little sublety and you will go far toward not contributing to another evening such as this one has been. ...... Additionally, if you choose to continue to dish out, please have the good graces to develop a thicker skin. For sure as hell, you have not shown that you can take it in return.

Well, looks like noise is gone for tonight.

Registration:

Folks, there is no easy way to go about registration, however, there can be multiple levels based on how much control of the site is required

1. Just ask to be registered, no question asked, you select ID and password, nobody knows who you are and there we go. Problem - anybody can register, register multiple times, therefore no protection at all.

2. Ask to be registered, site asks you for your e-mail address and sends you a confirmation. This way you can be at least somehow identified by the administrator. Again, some people could register under different id, different e-mail addresses. However, if there is abuse of posting etc, Bart can send a complain to a postmaster about the poster and revoke the posting privileges ( poster would have to get multiple e-mail addresses to register over and over under different id's.

3. Bart can ask for some other id at registration time ( not to be disclosed to anybody on the list )

As you see, more protection requires more information for the administrator so he can control the site. However, none of that information would be available to the rest of the group - privacy would be protected.

BTW, I work with some top experts on security, communication, etc. Work is done for top entities in the US dealing with security, etc. I know that any post on this site can be traced to it's source, experts can do it in no time. Bart and his site has all the information to start the trace. This means that your privacy is already in hands of Bart and his site.

Don't make such a big deal out of registration. Registration process will not make destroy privacy of any poster.

3. , the privacy of posters can be protected and nobody except Bart would know it.

I have been mostly lurking and learning at this site for a couple of months.
Tonight was the first time when I feel as if the disrupters were even moderately successful.
I note there has been little from Nick@ aussie as well as aurator, Colleeen and a myriad of others who have value to add to our search for meaning.
The disrupters will be gone with the first strong upsurge in the P.M. prices.
Thanks all for the education I've been receiving.

Obscene postings. Not from me. I think not. Highrise your too ignorant to understand. Why waste my time. Have a good night worry warts.

I'd hope that the few disrupters here haven't chased away the regulars. Sure the disrupters are a nuisance and get in the way but it should take more than this to stop posting or consider trashing the site. Who's turf is this anyway?

Does anyone know the spot price of Gold.
Thanks

Not spot but Dec.gold down .20

Obscene postings. Not from me. I think not. Highrise your too ignorant to understand. Why waste my time. Have a good night worry warts.

Obscene postings. Not from me. I think not. Highrise your too ignorant to understand. Why waste my time. Have a good night worry warts.

HighRise: According to Kitco, The current Ask price is $303.60. I think that's Hong Kong.