Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:00 - ID#249409)
re:quotes, charting software
re: past comments on charting software -
You could try Parity Technical Analysis 1.5
Shareware - free trial for 30 days, then about $79.
contact 76655.2570@compuserve, or check a
shareware download site on the internet.

re: option and futures prices
( EOD and 15 min delayed )
You could try Ira Epstein site

Also, through Epstein account get
free charting software, option/index/futures data
John Hackner 1-800-284-1093

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:01 - ID#28594)
The Cast Gathers for Rehearsals...
Comments: ( October, 1996 )
Prof. Dr. Helmut Schlesinger
Mr. Schlesinger is the former President of the Deutsche Bundesbank

The study presents a well-documented and cogent case for a stable dollar being an essential requirement for the "wealth of nations" as defined by Adam Smith. The finding that there was, on average, a one percent annual decline in the real value of weekly earnings in the United States between 1973 and 1994, compared with an annual increase of 1.9 percent between 1947 and 1972, is an important one. This was undoubtedly due in
large part to the instability of the dollar; its loss of domestic purchasing power, its depreciation against other major currencies, and the loss of confidence that was -- and no doubt still is -- associated with this in the United States and throughout the world. In terms of their basic stance, the specific conclusions and the account of the
macroeconomic relationships contained in Mr. Birnbaum's study deserve a full endorsement.

Bearing in mind the lessons learned in Germany, however, I feel that some comment is required; first, on what the abolition of the Bretton Woods system signified ( in particular, the abolition of the gold redemption requirement which was the preliminary stage top the abolition of the system ) and, second, on what the Bretton Woods system of fixed
exchange rates and the changeover to floating exchange rates implied for countries outside the United States.

Mr. Birnbaum gives a lucid account of the long period of relatively stable prices, comparatively low real interest rates and steady growth in the United States in the Bretton Woods era, and of the de jure obligation that existed to exchange foreign monetary authorities' dollar assets for gold.
The observation should be made, however, that this era increasingly came to rest on two artificial supporting elements.

Firstly, there was U.S. moral pressure on foreign central banks not to convert their dollar assets into gold. The major U.S. dollar creditor during that period was the Deutsche Bundesbank, which expressly refrained from any conversion of U.S. dollar into gold on
the part of United States monetary authorities. At the end of his period of office, Karl Blessing, President of the Deutsche Bundesbank from 1958 to 1969, said that this was his "biggest mistake." In saying that, he did not mean that the Bundesbank did not have enough gold ( its gold holdings originated in the period of the European Payments Union;
in other words, they came from European countries ) , but rather that the United States had been relieved in this way from the compulsion to settle its balance of payments deficit. jec/bimbaum2.html

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:02 - ID#284255)
Sugarbag years
Dads says that there was vast fires back then.
But more like what has been happening in Borneo lately.
Vast tracts of land were cleared making way for agricultural farming.
Because of the depression, labour was very cheap and graziers took advantage of this.
Lots of labour gangs clearing land and building roads.
Single men had to go into labour camps, this was compulsory.

Read "The Sugarbag Years" by Tony Simpson.
Prizewinner in the Watties book of the year awards.
An oral history of the 1930s depression in New Zealand.
Published 1974 by Alistar Taylor Publishing. Reprinted 1974, 1976.
This book gives amazing insights to those days of yesteryear.
"You could always tell us unemployed by the sugarbag we carried over our shoulder. It was our badge. They were the sugarbag years."
Dedication reads: "This book is dedicated to my father, who saw it. To my son, who will never hear about it."

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:03 - ID#210114)
'Gold' Coins
Have read in yesterdays comments that Clinton has authorised a 'gold coloured' $US 1 coin to be issued. We have 'gold' coins here in Australia for our $1 and $2 coins. Its an alloy of aluminium and copper-nickel if memory serves. I imagine it will be something similar in the US.

Anyone got some more details??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:05 - ID#210114)
Gold Sales by Default
Posted a comment a couple of days ago re: gold loans by CBs. I suggested that with some 8000 tonnes out on loan repayment may in fact be done by cash rather than gold thus producing gold sales by default.

Has anyone heard anything or have any thoughts??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:05 - ID#364147)
@ EB
Was beginning ta think ( duh ) that since you + G.S.Cole disappeared,that you were one+ the same....are YOU??? come clean duuude...agree with ya on that Canuck Dollar and ( . ) 72 thingy....had a nice little rise today~~~~

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:05 - ID#26660)
Argentina gold sale
Aregentina sold US$1.46b in gold rese4rves in the first half of the year to limit lisses from falling gold prices, the Central Bank said. Argentina sold more than 4moz of gold, all of the county's non minited gold, for an average of US$370.22/oz, the sale has staved off potential losses of $301m, the proceeds invested in US Treasury bonds gaining 5.5% interst. The central bank said it purchased options to buy gold at US$380/oz, anticipating a rebound in the price of gold.
The sale was'nt announced earlier because of the sensitivity of the international gold market to such events, the bank added. source Bloomberg

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:07 - ID#210114)
David, From where did you get this information about Agentinian sale?? Is this old news or new?? Any effect on spot price?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:09 - ID#364147)
@ conspiracies
Where is G.S. Cole or better yet WHO is G.S.Cole????......

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:12 - ID#22956)
everyone knows that I am you and you are me.........
and Aurator is not from this planet.....;- ) search the celestials for answers

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:14 - ID#255284)
We got 'em too - over the ditch
And don't they sound chintzy when they hit the floor?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:16 - ID#248180)
A.Greenspan & His flyin "747" circus show
A.G's comments to Asian Markets can be interpreted as "Trust Us" "Print More Paper & Accept our Paper". His speach is yet another " In Flight Fill-up of the massive "747" without landing gear. "Keep her up boys and keep flying - we will never have to land. Trust us we can fly forever.
Mr. AG's credibility is now waining and the world stage is growing weary.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:17 - ID#255284)
Pod People
Right, and my space-ship is causing global warming.
My Mission
I am here to take your gold.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:18 - ID#284255)
Greenspan sees strong world economy after Asia woes
In an unusually candid acknowledgment, Greenspan said the Fed was equally concerned about the inflation or deflation risks to the economy.
Deflation, or a loss of assets' value, results in a serious drag on the economy. Greenspan also pointed out that deflation often is a consequence of a one-time financial asset bubble.
any severe breakdown can have contagion effects on a worldwide basis. Contagion in Asia had been ''particularly troublesome,"
There ``is a very strong bias against the too big to fail'' syndrome, Greenspan warned, acknowledging that players would behave differently knowing they were not in danger of being allowed to fail.

Greenspan warns against defending weak currencies
``There is no level of reserves... which will protect you against a fundamental imbalance in respect to the market,''
``The one thing I find surprising about the recent crisis is not so much its nature... but how fast we are moving and how far we have come from the Mexican crisis of 1994-95,'' Greenspan stated, stressing the importance of accelerating the transparency process ``hopefully in a successful manner before crisis Number Three.''

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:20 - ID#24140)
For Mike Stewart

I dont think it matters much on this one as the

market came to equilibrilium very quickly. The

conversions for west deeps and fregold are

0.4735 and 0.1159 respectively. That means take the

price of Vaal Reefs ADR ( multiply by 10 as the ADR

trades at 1/10 of the joberg value ) - then use those

conversions and you should get the ADR "trade in"

value. Example vaal adr is $3.5- then joberg =$35.

35 * .4735 = $16.55 for Deeps and 35*.1159 = $4.05

for fregold.

For info, the conversion is 0.1425 for wes areas-

or 35*.1425 = $4.84

Im starting a rumour that shareholders should get

an extra 5% for tribal warfare insurance premium but

I dont think it will go down. ( Only kidding Zaddeek ) .

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:27 - ID#26660)
Spock - as far as I know this is new information, I certainly hav'nt seen it before. The souce was Bloomberg Buenos Aires office from Susan Schneider tel 514 321 7730 and Andrew Butters New York 212 318 2300 - hope this helps but this would confirm Veneroso's estimates on physical demand, plus if it was done earlier in the year the other sales ( Veneroso assumes 500t in October/November ) sure now look likely

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:28 - ID#364147)
and we are all together
Nite all~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:31 - ID#28594)
A Mirror Image
To understand why gold is down
and the dollar is up
why belief in the dollar is necessary
for this brief moment in time
to save the system
how a few of the men present at Camp David that week-end so long ago
saw, clear-eyed, the place where we now stand

Find the mirror image in Birnbaum's report

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:33 - ID#431263)
Herr Jack--Must have been readin' my mind! I've been thinkin' the same thing about the timing of this Asian currency debacle. If this isn't an attempt to teach those "little brown brothers" on the Pacific Rim a lesson or two about playin' ball with the US FED I'll eat my cheesehead!
How DARE they sell US paper promises for the REAL THING ( and I don't mean COKE! )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:39 - ID#249409)
another fundamental reason to buy gold...
I commented a while ago about research on buying gold...
" of a study done several years back by Nelson Freeburg.
Nelson is the proprietor of a monthly newsletter called Formula Research.
Their phone number is 800-720-1080. In the study, Nelson observed that the
only time to buy gold is when the Barron's Gold Mining Index divided by
Handy and Harman's spot price of gold is 1.40 or below."

Well, the ratio has fallen down to 1.37

So, FUNDAMENTALLY, a reason to buy gold shares ( or should I say, yet
another reason to buy gold shares ) .

However, TECHNICALLY, I am personally going to wait for a confirmed
trend change - I will miss the turning point, but will be happy
with getting the middle chunk of the move ( they do say that
top pickers and bottom pickers become cotton pickers - the trend
is your friend, and all that ) .

Also, there was a request for more technical analysis on this
site. I would be glad to share my 2 cents worth ( and get some
good feedback too I hope ) - but another day.
It is late, and I'm off for now.
Good night all...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:41 - ID#228128)
unable to login for several hours due to ovreloaded lines of IP
Thanks all for your return comments. Panda thanks for the synopsis. I'll probably go with Tradestation.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:42 - ID#22956)
And I will sell you gold that I do not have......

now........where did I leave my spaceship...I think I locked the keys in the trunk..... call AAA Earthside assistance


(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:51 - ID#284255)
"Big Bang"
Here is a most wondrous thing
So think and ponder on it,
The entire universe,
With you and me upon it
All blossomed from one atom
So the herald angels sang
In their first creative hymn
Extrapolated into THIS
At the Big Bang
Where He made all begin.

But yet its not so very odd
Other wondrous things agree
On creations mild simplicity
Note how the simple acorn grows
Into the noble - vast oak tree.

The magic numbers - 1 to 9
With mystic zero. Experts plan
With them to theorise the Universe
Reduced and Unified into
One pregnant, potent single line

Like E = M x C  !
We used this in our warring strife
Made a somewhat smaller Bang
But generated Death - not life.

And all the magic of
The sweet rich world of sound
Ars Nova - seven simple notes
make music's miracles profound.

And our alphabet. Its clear
Here is a magic world compressed.
All the worlds wisdom and its folly
By these few vowels
And the consonants expressed.

And colour too!
And mystic world of Light
Magic's of atomies
These pure simplicities
Perform the miracle of sight.

And so,
When all is Known and understood
The whole is such a simple place
Simple - but infinitely deep,
And wonderfully good.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:53 - ID#310407)
"Gold Colored" US coins
Hmm, this new "Gold colored" US coin is bound to cheapen perceptions of REAL Gold even further no?

who cares
(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:53 - ID#244209)
Fun Fact For Today

Check out

The Federal Debt has risen $116B in the past 123 days.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 00:55 - ID#372344)
@ SA production for the record.
The new Anglogold will produce 5,7 million ounces or 178 tons of Gold
a year if the price stays above 300.This number includes production
from Mali ,Namibia and South Africa, according to Mr. Boby Godsell CEO
for the New Anglogold. A regular Kitco contributor had erroneously posted earlier today that the new Co. itself would produce more Gold than the US, which even by 1995 figures produced about 320 + tons.

Mr.Godsell went on to say that because the costs to the new Co. would be about $280.00 per ounce ,unless the CB's clarified their position on
Gold, he forecast a major decline in SA Gold production as the higher grades would only be mined, which would bring their costs down to about $250.00 per ounce.

Another article in the WST last week indicated that a good portion of SA Gold production comes from mines that are over 2.5 miles deep underground and are becoming costly and the grades are declining.

In my view the foregoing would support Gold at least at the 280.00 level
for the time being and the possible closure of mines not just in SA but worldwide should quickly rally Gold .

(Wed Dec 03 1997 01:41 - ID#401460)
If you ain't got it, fake it!
The new gold colored coin will just reinforce the value of real Gold as being to precious to put on or in a coin. If anything is cheapened by the coin, it will be the country who tries to fake the real thing. Only the perceptions of the of the country who tried to fake the real thing will be lowered further.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 01:54 - ID#284255)
Comments on 2 December for the Market on 3 December 1997

It is 50/50 whether the top is in for this short term cycle or whether we will make another short term high, first. Either way, we are heading for a soft spot with a short term down cycle which should last 10 days - 2 weeks. To review the bidding, I have three possibilities on the table and have had for some time as the consolidation continues to work its way out. In no particular order, the first possiblity is that we are making a triangle. If that is the case, we may start the last leg down this week, but that is not clear. If this is a triangle, there will be new highs all around, eventually. The second possiblity is that this is part of a down, up-to-double-top, much bigger down sequence. If this is the case, we may start the much bigger down sequence this week, but that is not clear. If this is the case, there will be new highs all around, eventually. The third possiblility is that the bear market has begun. If that is the case, we will not see new highs for some time. No way to tell, yet, as the market slowly tries to decide whether the US economy is strong enough to suffer the slings and arrows of Asian flu, together with the end of freer trade, potentially coupled with economically devastating implications of fighting global warming, whether or not such a beast actually exists. Bonds are near a critical, critical point. While I am very bearish, a break through to new all time highs would be extraordinarily bullish.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 02:02 - ID#284255)
Equity Inflows ( AMG ) : +$0.2 billion; prev week: +$0.3 billion
four week avg: $7.0 billion
Wednesday, December 3, 1997:
Although the blue chips may continue higher, the rally has ended for the broad market. Money Flow is strong only in the Dow and nowhere else. The pattern setting up in the blue chips could actually see the Dow at a new high this week and well below the 7000 level by late December, so this is no time to be chasing the rally. We should get a great buy point in just about two weeks.
If the description of calm on the outside, chaotic on the inside sounds familiar, it is because we have all seen it before. It comes almost verbatim from the serial killer's neighbor handbook, commenting to the TV news crew, "Oh, he looked like such a nice boy, we had no idea what he was really up to".

ER Physician
(Wed Dec 03 1997 02:04 - ID#228283)
Gold Discussion

Full moon and ER:

ER Physician
(Wed Dec 03 1997 02:12 - ID#228283)

JTF, here is the full moon article

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 02:50 - ID#24140)
Zadeeks predictions
For Zadeek

I admire your energy. You should devote your time

to a better cause than distorting information.

Gold annual outputs through August 1997 follow for

the AngloAmerican group of companies. Source Mining

Journal - units 000 oz.

Estvaal 60

ERGO 415

Elands 525

Fregold 2500

Southvaal 1215

Vaal Reef 2115

West Deep 1080

Total 7910

In addition, we must now add in joel and Wes areas

which Anglos bought from JCI.

Joel 240

Wes Areas 570

For a grand total of 8720 , or 8.7 million oz, or

271 tons. The best number that I have for US production

about the same level.. I can calculate the US production for the

corresponding period but it is a lot of trouble as

there are many small mines. I dont think its worth

it. My point is that One RSA company produces gold

at the US OR Canadian national order of magnitude - It's subsidiary Amplat also produces about as much or more platinum than Russia.

When Godsell says a lower number - that means

what they WILL cut back to if the price stays

below 300$. The US, Australia, Canada will also

cut back similarly.

Now lets look at US production same basis

Amax 440

Battle Mt 860

Coeur d' 235

Getchell 180

Homestake 1810

Newmont 2930

Total 6455

Barrick is registered in Canada and produces 3

million ounces. If you count canadian registered Barrick as US

production as US production then The US can be seen

as 9455 oz versus 8700 for anglos. If you dont, then as

I said , anglos outproduces the US.

I hope you are right about a bottom for gold at

280 or better. Although, I worry about how you arrive

at the number.

One thing you should try to understand is that

the decline in gold production in RSA was really

because of slack exploration and commitment by Mining

houses during the uncertain political transition

period. The western areas deposit is vast. There are

others. Ill tell you about them later - you're not

ready for it yet.

If you have a problem with these numbers, then contact

Mining Journal Ltd, 60 Worship street,London EC2A 2HD,

phone 44 171 216 6050

Now please give me references and sources for your

data and information - like the 320 plus tons produced

by the US in 1995. I'd like to check that number.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:11 - ID#284255)
What caused the stock market crash of 1929 and the bear market which followed? The period from 1929 to 1933 was the worst bear market in the history of the United States stock market. Many analysts have looked at the 1929 stock market in the United States, but what happened in the rest of the world, and what lessons can be learned from those fateful years? This newsletter will attempt to answer those questions.

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:19 - ID#24140)
Finished with Zadeeeeeek!
For Zaddeek

Please check the following URL

You will find that the US is NOT the world's largest

gold supplier as you originally stated. In 1995, South

Africa produced 522 tons versus 468 tons for North

America ( ie US and Canada ) - You said that the US

produced 320 tons plus in 1995 - I question that number

-- please give me your source for the the 320 tons in

1995 which you spoke of.

You seem to confuse things that are matters of opinion

with facts - you dont seem to want to be bothered with

facts - yes troublesome little things arent they??.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:43 - ID#215208)
Here we go again!
London has creamed the PM's. Gold dropped under 290, silver down a dime, PA down 5, PA down 4. What's with those guys!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:45 - ID#215208)
Whoops! First PA ia PL of course.

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:46 - ID#287367)
Now what is going on that gold is down another $3 ? ( Other than the usual "more sellers than buyers" )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 03:53 - ID#252127)
Is there a comprehensive study on the DOW?

Like what was the total capitalization of the 30 DOW stocks at DOW 2000 and then again at DOW 8000? No doubt that some of the stocks were replaced over time. I bet that all have more outstanding shares at DOW 8000 than at DOW 2000.
What about their total debts at the two price points. Then there are various ratios that would be intersting to compare for - then and now.
If an in-depth study DOW existed; and the two price points were compared -- it would be very interesting -- and may tell the whole different story.

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 04:03 - ID#287367)
Hi,Nick! Found fascinating reading. Thanks!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 04:17 - ID#372344)
@ final comment on SA Production.
Someone has been posting for Zaddeek I wonder if they even read
thru my posts at all. My handle is TZADEAK*.

With respect to the issue of 320 tons produced in 1995 by the US Pls
ck the URL provided on Dec 02, 1997 at 1758 by 223, to the World Gold Council, there you will find your 320 tons in black and yellow writing.

The statements made by Godsell and others are to be found in the WSJ
last Wenesday and Friday.

The figures you quote include production from Mali, Namibia etc.
and RSA. Therefore you would have to include production from Canada
and South American to the official US production and there you will see my point . But this is just like" Monday Morning Quaterbacking" in my view.My original posting spoke of today and tomorrow not yesterday's production, and there I was hoping that my statements would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the trend for the monent at least, is for much lower RSA production, and that sneaking from behind sort of speak over the last few years,the US has been steadily increasing its own production at home, and in its own back yard.

No need to worry on how I arrived at the 280 number, you see their MO
is to keep their subjects just bearly alive, witness the forced IMF restrictions now being imposed on battered Asian Economies.
Some RSA Gold production will be needed to keep Gold Down,in order to keep the paper US$ game going, they do not want dramatic gold production cutbalks as world demand rises, at 280 a good portion of
RSA production could be , but just bearly maintained.

p.s- I do not appreciate being accused of "distorting information".
I understand this subject is rather important to you, but if you wish to have
an honest exchange of ideas and information, you should not react
impulsively, but rather intellectually.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 04:52 - ID#26793)
Air Force Colonel says Ron Brown Died from gunshot wound.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 04:59 - ID#26793)
Ratings cut on four major Japanese banks

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:03 - ID#26793)
BOJ creating massive asmounts of liquidity to keep system alive

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:06 - ID#26793)
BOJ selling dollars for first time since August, 1992

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:12 - ID#26793)
Fed injects $10 billion when Fed Funds rate hits 7%

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:18 - ID#26793)
Brazil auto workers get 20% pay cut

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:22 - ID#157190)
Why the sudden drop in London?
When was Agentina sale announced? Is that what caused this drop?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:27 - ID#26793)
Russian platinum and palladium deliveriers in doubt.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:39 - ID#26793)
British bank suffers 300 million pound trading loss

(Wed Dec 03 1997 05:44 - ID#26793)
Central Banks were eager gold lenders yesterday

(Wed Dec 03 1997 06:10 - ID#35767)
Gold drop
I am not surprised at this am gold drop. Yesterday at around 1:30 eastern gold was up about a buck then I turned around and the next minute it was unch. There was agenda selling yesterday as today. The Argentinian announcement is way old news and is just to give cover to the raid and further discredit gold. The problem is now earnings for tech stks thus nasdaq clobbered thus another problem so KILL gold. The intensity and timing of this program along with announcments for cover is amazing. To make a bottom in Gold we need a day like today where we close up. Starting on the upside yesterday was a nonstarter as a turn around day IMHO.

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:07 - ID#24140)
Farewell to Zaddeek

Goodbye Zaddeek - I've enjoyed as much of this as I can stand

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:08 - ID#24140)
Farewell to Zaddeek

Goodbye Zaddeek - I've enjoyed as much of this as I can stand

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:21 - ID#413109)
If what I've watched, so far today in gold, continues on the up side, I believe there's a good chance the sudden drop to below 290 USD, was a final
shakout. The end of the day will tell. We should see the XAU and gold and the other PMs finish the day in the plus column, then I'll feel more better still.
Yes I know that's not good english. It's to make the point, see?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:25 - ID#26793)
Morning gold drop blamed on Australian producers

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:25 - ID#35767)
TED Speed Reify J. Disney LGB 2 JTF

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:28 - ID#35767)
TED Speed Reify LGB 2 JTF etc
Where the Hell is Internet Economist George S. Cole. And I want Feedback from S. Peutz as to where we are. Comments and help from anyone appreciated. Is George S. Cole's letter still coming put?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:42 - ID#93232)
OMAHA ( Rooters ) for immediate release

In an unexpected move this morning, the AMA ( American Mall Association ) , released a report recommending to its members to immediately reduce the size of parking spaces. Jon Dent, executive director, stated, "We forsee 73% of our mall customers driving Kias next year". He went on to recommend that malls having more than five million square feet should continue to have five spaces for Lincoln Towncars.

DETROIT ( Rooters )

In an obvious defense reaction to the AMA annoucement this morning, Karl
Forde XXIII, chairman of Ford Motor Cars, stated that "Ford will not be affected by the cheap import market". He added, "Last year our company was involved in a global market; however, I am proud to say today we are not!" He went on to say that Ford will soon offer a scaled down version of the successful and legendary Pinto. The new model has not been named to date; however, rumor is that it will be called the El Nino.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:52 - ID#26793)
The latest from Nick Chase, The Contrarian

(Wed Dec 03 1997 07:58 - ID#333131)
"It's always darkest just before the lights go out."
The lights get turned off at dawn, as well as the stars.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:00 - ID#364147)
@ Cape Breton
With gold gettin hammered ( down 1.90 ) good mornin all!...ROR:Since George S.Cole hasn't posted since registration my guess is that he was a made-up character---who would do such a dastardly act you ask----my best bet is EB ( grin thingy ) Tort: CHEER UP ( 'it' will be OVER in 23 days ) ....

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:10 - ID#427357)
INGER LETTER FORECAST - December 2, 1997
Gene Inger Predictions:
Dow over 8,000; highs no doubt for S&P coming;
........................................................while facts haven't changed.

What about a drop into mid-December? Well, my opinion is that's still coming, but as it will be a bullish pause for the moment, barring news of shock capability. Complete Market Forecast at:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:15 - ID#427357)
SILVER LINING by The Astrological Investor
Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:16 - ID#287207)
STUDIO.R: Mercury version will be the Santa Maria and they will all be built in a city in Ohio.

G.S. Cole has a history of computer problems that have kept him away before.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:36 - ID#35767)
THERE IS A GEORGE S COLE AS HE HAS a newsletter. The mystery is why the disappearance. This is almost as perplexing as the pressure on gold. Maybe GSC is Another or Big Trader. Can we know, indeed is it knowable and finally do we individually or collectively really want to know. I am going to post an internet poster offering a reward for locating GSC and for his safe return to Kitco. Who would like to contribute to the "George S. Cole" rescue fund. To those who may have gone off with his handle we plead that a return before Christmas or Chaunakah
would be within the spirit of the season and a welcomed event to his anguished family on Kitco. Make your checks payable to the GSC RESCUE FUND. Thanks and may our friend be found by the New Year.
Contributions to this rescue fund from Robert Rubin and the IMF will be gladly accepted. If they can bailout S. Korea they can bailout Kitco by contributing the the George S. Cole rescue fund. SAVE GSC!

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:42 - ID#287367)
Hi Fred! It's "Turnaround Tuesday" not Wednesday ;- )
I see gold is only down 55 cents and silver is up 3 cents. I'm going to call 911 and ask for the gold plunger team to get back to work!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:52 - ID#427357)
THE GOLD-EAGLE monthly spotlight for insightful market commentary and analysis BEAMS on John Kutyn for his autopsy of the Asian financial fiasco: Currency Chaos and Financial Collapse. To review this insightful prophetic treatise of Asian currency & stock market turmoil, and its inevitable consequences, go the following Internet location, and once there CLICK on John Kutyns plaque:

Spud Master
(Wed Dec 03 1997 08:55 - ID#273112)
back from an extended sojourn...
A.Goose: re. computer sales weak this Christmas - quite right. Just HOW many $3,000 to $1,500 dollar computers can you afford to buy every six months ( their tech. obselescence life-span now ) ? Even loosey-goosey credit card spending yuppies have realized this... Compaq, Microsloth,Dell, Gateway earnings, watch out!

JTF: re. new US "gold-coloured" dollar coin. I've already suggested to my US Representative that it be "merde-coloured" to reflect its true value. This is simply more of the confidence scam effected on a continuing basis by the Feds: gold-coloured to inspire confidence in the silly consumer's mind - just like "In God We Trust" stays on the currency - but not in our schools! Atheistic everywhere else, but when ya gotta have the unwashed public suckered, feed'em what you will! I understand Stalin, during the Great Patriotic War encouraged Russians to go to church...

EB: re. $295/oz gold. A rigged clock is right all the time! To quote Black Adder's doctor: "That just leaves more rampant toddy for us real men" ( grin ) .

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:04 - ID#339274)
final hour
...Guess the Goldbugs have lost their hearts ( golden? ) .
Time to cover and to go long,exuberant taxloss sales in
goldstocks gives an excellent opportunity to make 50%
on the upside for the upcoming relief rally.And who knows
when we finally make a final bottom in the spring ,could be
200,250,or 300 .The only thing you will know that the
gold vis a vis the stocks will be relatively stronger.
Favourite metal is Platinum ,the Gold /Platinum ratio
will widen when both metals will go up.
Interest rates will rise sharply after the holidays,
taking the stockmarket with it.
Happy trading : )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:11 - ID#93232)
And where should we forward the cheques? I trust you will not have a difficult time depositing mine after Christmas...would you prefer that it be Y4,000,000. or US$3.75? Must now go to the office to pump oil and give it away.

The gatorade/oil index: ( NEW LOW ) 1/176.3 ( in bbls )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:19 - ID#390214)
Indonesia 's Rupiah dives to new low (loss of confidence in CB's continue)
The Finance Minister, Mr Mar'ie Muhammad, said intervention by Japan, Singapore and Indonesia which has

been used to prop up the rupiah would be suspended. The turmoil surrounding South Korea's economic woes

meant intervention was no longer effective, he said.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:19 - ID#31868)
I have not lost heart. I say buy the noble metals gold and silver with every downturn in price. Turn your governmental debt paper in for every ounce you can.

The amoral thugs cannot beat history. The truth will overwhelm them. It always has and it always will.

Freedom cannot be contained. The truth cannot be hidden.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:24 - ID#390214)
Loss of confidence in Australia CB & 1998 economic outlook
Investors aggressively sold the Australian dollar yesterday as news of further troubles in South Korea and falls in

key Asian currencies overshadowed better-than-expected growth figures for the local economy.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:31 - ID#390214)
Massive bad loans in Asean & Korea (twice the total of shareholder's equity)

Bad bank loans in ASEAN countries and Korea have

been estimated by Jardine Fleming at about $159 billion

-- twice the total shareholders' equity.

A survey by the finance house assumes that 70 per cent

of nonperforming loans are lost forever.

If the banks write off the rest, this means that in Korea

banks are short of capital by $54 billion, in Thailand $27

billion, Malaysia $5.5 billion and Indonesia $1.6 billion.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:31 - ID#287207)

Ted: Maybe George S Cole is your Postman and has been locked out and unable to get to his terminal. If so, he will reappear here and there on Friday--maybe.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:34 - ID#339274)
tolerant 1
...physical gold should always be part of your core position as well as
TBills.To buy at every dip would be unsustainable.Cycles will give you
the trading advantage to go long and short timing wise.

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:37 - ID#287367)
A beautiful young lady was walking along the beach when she came across a central banker sitting there crying; he had no arms or legs. The lady asked the central banker what was the matter. Sobbing, he said, I am 55 and I have never been kissed. So the lady bent down and kissed him. He started crying harder, and again she asked the central banker, "Whats the matter"? He responded by saying, "I'm 55, and I've never been screwed." So she picked him up and tossed him into the ocean and said, "Well, now you're screwed."

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:39 - ID#31868)
Prudence is my best friend as I do buy at almost every downturn. One need not buy much physicl to keep up a healthy pace during these depressed times in the metals markets.

Each of the metals has offered many a buying opportunity at different intervals.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:41 - ID#31868)
Crystal Ball
If you could hear me laughing you would know how much I loved that joke. Cheers.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:43 - ID#390214)
India gold news(gold acc. schemes to public effective Jan '98)
IOB plans to focus on retail gold sales: Indian Overseas

Bank, one of the seven banks permitted to sell gold, plans to

increase the volume in this segment by concentrating on retail

sales. From January 1998, select branches of the bank will start

selling gold to the public in retail quantities. The bank will also

offer gold accumulation schemes to its people.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:46 - ID#28593)
A Rallying Cry for us in our time of tesing
Seneca, in De Providentia, warns us that there will be trouble in our lives, and we must learn to come to grips with it, telling us literally:

ignis aurum probat, miseria fortes viros

"Fire tests gold; adversity ( tests ) strong men."

It makes a good motto for us...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 09:46 - ID#261190)
NOTHING is over until WE say it is

Hey, I miss GSC too. I would MUCH rather hear from him than LGB.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:02 - ID#261190)
Settling Accounts

Steve Puetz: How about our wager, eh?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:04 - ID#28593)
Grief! That should, of course, be T E S T I N G
I'll quietly crawl away and have a cuppa...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:05 - ID#258427)
@Bouncing Silver
Silver really bouncing today ... up 2 or 3 cents ... down 2 or 3 cents .. Wonder what that means. It is unanimous ... I want GSC back too!!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:08 - ID#7568)
torrential rains lead analysts to predict severe drought

A quote from an AP wire story re Japan:

"The government announced Wednesday that real gross domestic product rose 0.8 percent in the July-September quarter from the prior quarter, for an annual pace of 3.1 percent, leading analysts to believe the risks of a full-blown recession are growing."

When the media gets a story and decides that it is 'true' no amount of data or facts will change their mind. The deflation collapse story has gained so much credence that the talk will not turn until way, way after prices have done so. My comment about the lack of bond market rally yesterday in the face of 'great' news was to intended to point out that things may not always be as they seem.

The 'deflationary collapse' may well turn out to be the biggest fakeout we have ever seen.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:11 - ID#31868)
The price of gold should not be used as a barometer of deflation as the price has clearly been forced down by central bank sales and a media storm against it.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:14 - ID#34883)
If Gold was measured in the gram ( troy ounce = 31. 103 476 8 g. ) it would facilitate economic calculation with the currencies.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:17 - ID#427357)
Considering the traditional investments of these financial behemoths, we may quite imagine them sitting all day long watching over THEIR INVESTMENTS on this Intra-Day chart page - scroll to the bottom:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:21 - ID#31868)
Go check out

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:23 - ID#339274)
...Xau breaking down to test 67 and 65.Fire sale in full swing,gold stocks are being dumped

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:29 - ID#255151)
I LOVE the smell of Gold 3-0-0 in the morning.

My 2 cents here. I bought a 5 gram Gold bullion wafer last week. Paid about $50 for it. It is the first time I have felt the metal in my hands. Smells like...victory

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:31 - ID#338452)
Crystal Ball:

Sorry, but just to correct something minor .....

" ( Other than the usual "more sellers than buyers" ) "

Is actually incorrect as there must be an equal number of buyers as sellers for a price change to register at all. I believe you meant there were more people willing to accept a lower price than there were buyers willing to pay a higher price .... yes?


Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:33 - ID#295111)
Placer Dome (PDG) vs Barrick Gold (ABX
To Lawrence, in reply to yesterdays post.

ABX can sell its gold at $400 an ounce till the year 2000 because of a hedging program it pursed ( I guess it knew gold would go down, hence the short selling in it, I call them the professional short sellers who really know what's going on and when gold will bounce upward ) . PDG has a weaker hedge position, but I don't know what it is.

ABX is the lowest cost producer of Gold in the world, so they say. It has very large reserves. ( BUT I always hear American analysts on TV saying NEWMONT is the lowest cost producer, and they "guys on moneyline, CNBC etc" really want to pump up Newmont, probably because more Americans hold NEWMONT, and they are biased for "their" stocks. I also heard FREEPORT MACMORAN CEO say he was the lowest cost producer. ) Newmont has been a better performer stock wise though. So now I don't really know but I believe Barrick is.

ABX has closed high cost mines to improve profitability and is a good move. PDG has increased gold output to maintain earnings.

PDG is in litigitaion for mining rights in Las Christinas. They will win it though. Real question is for the copper rights to it. But I think they'll win that too.

PDG CEO WIlson expects gold to be around $350 in 1998.

I own shares in both.

In my opinion, PDG is the better buy. Short term, stock will give you a nice gain once those judges come out with a final decision. When gold price goes up, your return wil be greater too. ABX is a safer stock to buy though because it can wait till year 2000 for gold to bounce.

Consider buying Freeport Preferred shares. They are required to redeem them in the future with ounces of gold per share, not US Dollars!!!!, NOT DOLLARS. So if you think gold will go up, buy the preferreds. I forgot wich ones they are though. Anyone out there know??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:38 - ID#285233)
tolerant1 / All - I tend to agree with your assumption that gold market has been manipulated to a large degree. Namely, the CB's have come in and changed supply portion of the supply/demand equation.
However, I am wondering if what we are seeing, as far as the gold price collapse is concerned, can all be attributed to this manipulation.
The gold market is very sofisticated and has a tremendous depth. Since our basic premise is based on an assumption that gold is money, the demand by now should match anything these manipulators have thrown at the gold market.

If some currency ( suppose as good as gold!!!_ ) would be put on temporary sale, say 30% , wouln't the demand be overwhelming ??????? I say: absolutely YES!! ( By the way, for reference: inflation adjusted price of gold is now at about $420; this assumes no world's financial and other crises. )

So, we should still be exploring the deflationary collapse scenario as a possibility taht is getting more and more plausible.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:40 - ID#31868)
Gold Mining Outlook
by Steven Jon Kaplan

Gold touched $290.50 per ounce at 3 a.m. EST on Wednesday, its lowest spot price since March 6, 1985.

Updated @ 9:00 a.m. EDT, Wednesday, December 3, 1997.

COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities were little changed on Tuesday, while precious metals ended higher. Gold edged up twenty cents, silver inched higher by 0.3 cents, platinum rallied four dollars, and palladium gained $2.50. Analysts' and investors' sentiment remains extremely bearish, especially toward the yellow metal. According to Rhona O'Connell of T. Hoare and Co., London, "There's lots of physical demand out there, it's very difficult to get hold of the metal in Asia, premiums [actual purchase price over official spot price] are rising, but no professional will want to be exposed when you've got this sort of sentiment about." In other words, everyone knows that the price is ridiculously low, but everyone is waiting for everyone else to be the first buyer.

Argentina announced early Wednesday morning that it had sold its entire gold reserves of a little more than four million ounces ( just under 125 metric tons ) , and will sell most of its ancient gold coins as well, for the purpose of investing its money in U.S. Treasuries.

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:41 - ID#287367)
You are correct sir! Thank you for the gentle reminder. {:- ) }

Lan Man
(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:43 - ID#317183)
Tantalus Rex - you sound pretty confident about PDG and Las Cristinas, but WHAT IF you are wrong? Personally I would NOT be buying PDG based upon LC...since the share price has already factored in that property. Just imagine IF KRY came out on top? PDG would be an $8.00 stock before you knew it.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:43 - ID#285233)
@Tantalus Rex
Tantalus Rex - The lowest cost producer among the majors is Freeport, with $174/oz cost. They mine copper at 27c/lb and gold is almost a by-product of this mining. Their reserves are over 50million oz , all in one mine and all in one country, Indonesia, and that is a problem. FCX has not collapsed like the other majors.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:45 - ID#255151)

Here is a shocker. Any comments?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:45 - ID#426220)
WHATS THE LEK LACKING? by Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D.
Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D. shares his insightful views on Why a currency is strong or weak. His poignant example of a weak currency is the Albanian Lek vis--vis a strong currency, the Almighty Buck. It exudes common-sense logic... and is indeed a refreshing down to earth explanation of the underlying rationale:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:45 - ID#28593)
August, 1971...US Treasury gold window is closed...
Paul Volker ( G30 ) , Toyoo Gyohten ( G30 ) conferring with Arthur
Burns, August, 1971...

"..floating will bring misery to manking..."

Six years later, the Group of 30 is formed. Men who truly understand
money, and honor, and discipline, and see clearly the monster
that has been let loose in the world.

Can you begin to imagine Toyoo Gyohten grief as he looks as his
beloved country ( Japan ) today?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:48 - ID#28593)
"manking" is a freudian slip...
i meant, of course, mankind...
and "sorrow" would have been a better
choice of words than "grief"
i must be less "spontaneous"...

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:50 - ID#287367)
Well, at the very worst, the Argentinians will be able to wallpaper their capitol building with pictures of dead ( US ) presidents. Although I wonder why they wouldn't simply print up some of their own with home-grown national heros ( seems more patriotic ) . Must be they ran out of paper and ink, and they had this worthless yellow debris lying around. Kinda like the story of Jack, who traded his cow for some magic beans; they must be expecting the US Treasury paper to grow to the sky. ;- )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:52 - ID#20136)
gold premiums in Singapore, the main distribution centre for the region, moved up sharply last week

Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 05:44
Donald__A ( Central Banks were eager gold lenders yesterday ) ID#26793:

``There has been a great deal of concern about the economic upheaval in East Asia which led to some distress sales of gold starting in the third quarter,''
WGC's Milling-Stanley said.

``Currently, however, there are signs of a recovery in the demand for gold in the region,'' he added.

``Reports from Thailand and Indonesia suggest there is quite a strong turnaround, while gold premiums in Singapore, the main distribution centre for the
region, moved up sharply last week - the premium on kilobars jumping to 70-100 cents over spot London prices, from 45-65 cents, and that on 10 tola
bars to 90-120 cents over spot London prices, from around 80 cents,'' he said.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:55 - ID#31868)
Crystal Ball
The United States and its people are going to suffer years of devastation for the stupidity we are witnessing. And all the idiots that talk of how great the expansion is and the yada, yada, yada, that goes with it, I wonder how they will love the soup lines.

The debt will crush the US. Printin Clinton is fool.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:57 - ID#285233)
Tolerant1 - When I looked at your earlier post that had the following news:
"Argentina announced early Wednesday morning that it had sold its entire gold reserves of a little more than
four million ounces ( just under 125 metric tons ) , and will sell most of its ancient gold coins as well, for
the purpose of investing its money in U.S. Treasuries. ",

I find it as a good news!!!!!. Let those bastards sell all they have. Eventually they will HAVE to buy it at a lot higher cost plus with devalued currencies because of the sale. At this point new sales will be netral or positive. World's wealth is being transferred to smart hands!!! RIGHT ON!!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 10:59 - ID#28593)
Freeport preferred is FCX Preferred B
the "gold bond" stock
and one of the few I held on to...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:00 - ID#31868)
There will be huge shifts in wealth when this puppy crashes. Gold will rise as will silver. Hopefully we can clean house in Washington and then get the bankers.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:01 - ID#295111)
Steady: Thx. I knew they had the lowest cost mine, but still don't know if that's true when taking all their mines into the equation. Ie their high cost mines could make their total cost per ounce quite high.

Lan Man: I know, you never know what happens in court. But I believe the Cyrstallex play was to make sure PDG goes down in price and to delay things as much as possible. They delay is still on because the judges were supposed to have come out with a decision by Xmas. There are about 3Million shares shorted on PDG but people have not sold them. So these guys still want to scare people into selling their shares.In other words, Chrystallex and PDG are in bed together, though you'd never know for sure.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:05 - ID#31868)
read this from yesterday if you missed it.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:06 - ID#28593)
Thanks Cousin Donald for the FEDFunds update
Do we have a bank in trouble? Chase for the Min/Fin short
sale? MS for a derivative deal?

Sharefin@Work, Work, Work...Thank you for the
information. I think your 'handle' should be

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:08 - ID#34883)
thanks Tolerant1
The troy ounce is a remnant from the days of the alchemist's.If money is the common denominator used for calculation of exchange ratio's wouldn't the unit of measure preferably be a facsimile of price?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:14 - ID#390214)
Argentina sale(Reuters omitted mentioning purchase of calls at $380)
Nevertheless, the Argentinian Central Bank cushioned the effect of the sale, with the announcement it had

purchased call options at $US380 an ounce, with the belief gold prices will rise.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:14 - ID#295111)
all: FYI, In the last ABX annual report, ABX clims to be the lowest major cost producer at $193/oz vs the average of $269/oz. With the mine closings it recently announced, ABX says gold will be produced at $150/oz and they also say the will increase output.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:21 - ID#263278)
Cyclist, just noticed that Lehman has reconfirmed a sell on gold stocks, based on the idea that the stocks do not yet reflect the fall in the gold price. I'm interested in your opinion on this.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:22 - ID#22956)
Welcome Back
Oh great Spudster - A warm welcome back ( grin ) . Your sage market comments have been sorely missed. this broken clock thingy.....huh?? My clock is set to the U.S. Naval Observatory every a.m. Does this mean that clock is busted?? If so my broken clock says we will see prices in the 280's and possibly ( probably ) lower ( hell it happened in '85 why not now ) . Join the 'crew' and make a buck here. If not you should be buying gold ( physical not futures imho ) at these levels ( or wait when it is cheaper ) with BOTH hands and feet and your neighbors hands and feet. Historically speaking, gold is priced quite favorably for the buy, right? This truly seems to be a great time to buy the physical ( if you are into that sort of thing ) . I'm just not into it.....but things could change.......we know this to be the only constant ( change ) .....uh huh....that's right.......uh huh.....oh my...

to add...these boys ( and girls ) in London really seem to be trashing the metal when it becomes their turn ( US evenings ) they know something we don't...or is there clock broken too....I think I know... jump on the good ship ss britian


(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:28 - ID#228100)
Investing in Gold?
Dont send money to a company that will send you a certificate for some bullion in a vault somewhere. Just mail a check to me. Ill buy it for you and keep it in my basement. I promise to take really good care of it.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:35 - ID#22956)
Currency traders take note.......and Ted.......
Some fine news from Donald ( our ) a.m. I will reprint some important 's. And the Plat. news is good stuff too. Thanks King Don...

``When the appropriate time comes, we may intervene again,'' said Japanese Vice Finance Minister

for International Affairs Eisuke Sakakibara, known as ``Mr Yen'' for his ability to move exchange


Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka said movements in the forex market, especially in the yen

against the dollar, were not favourable, and that Japan stood ready to act appropriately to ensure

currency market stability.

The dollar was also threatened by a warning from an international monetary official, who spoke on

condition of anonymity, that a further dollar gain against Asian currencies would rebound on the

United States.

``The U.S. dollar's rise not only against the yen but also other Asian currencies such as the rupiah

would have a big impact on the United States because that would cause competitive devaluations,''

the official said outside meetings of Asian finance ministers in Kuala Lumpur.

``Ignoring such comments is a dangerous game to play,'' said Nick Probert, head of spot trading at

Bank of America. ``The market is still fairly sanguine about it but it would be foolish to shrug off the

threat of intervention.''

imo....when talk gets like this and the en gets this low......well, you know the your homework... ( remember ) "ignoring suc comments is a dangerous game to play".



D.A. - haven't heard from you...not a good time, I understand ;- )

Ted - some toilet reading for you......yuk, yuk...ugh...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:43 - ID#426220)
ALL: Normally I DO NOT recommend books to anyone, unless specifically asked, brecause one does not know their interests and level of sophistication. HOWEVER, today I recommend without reservation the following 1975 publication: "PONZI: The Boston Swindler." In credible and fanciful as they may seem, the events meticulously recorded in this book are factually true --- AND NOT UNLIKE WHAT THE IMF IS ATTEMPTING TO PERPETRATE in bailing out the World Bankruptcy:

IMF Rescue Loan to Mexico ( 1995 ) :..........$48 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Korea ( Present ) :........$55 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Thailand ( Present ) :.....$40 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Malaysia ( Present ) :.....$Yet Undetermined
IMF Rescue Loan to Japan ( Future ) :............$Experts Fear To Estimate

And where will all this RESCUE MONEY come from... with currencies and stock markets around the world suffering the Domino Effect??? In the end the IMF will issue paper-backed Bonds, and try to find the naive suckers to buy them. Anmd how will the IMF pay the interest due on the new paper-backed bonds, well... The Ponzi Book outlines the genius simple plan: future interest and redemptions are paid from new sucker money buying newlly issued paper-backed bonds... and infinitum & ad nauseum.

The PONZI BOOK by Donald H. Dunn is a must read. However, apparently the word is getting out - as there has been a 'run' on used-book stores. I had to call three states to locate a coverless copy. The store-owners said there were some stogy pot-bellied middle-aged men in suits with vests, who bought up all the copies. "Looked like bankers," said the bookstore owners.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:48 - ID#426220)
GOLD VERSUS THE DOLLAR by Milhouse (Hong Kong)
Hong Kong analyst Milhouse shares his latest economic and financial wisdom. Again, he draws special attention to the significance of Money Supply. Correctly he observes, If confidence in financial assets and government controlled currencies was to significantly reduce, then the total gold reserves of all Central Banks ( worth 320 billion dollars at current gold prices ) could be absorbed in an instant by private investors.

Of monumental import is his assertion that  must be remembered that there are 3.8 billion ounces of gold in the world and the supply is increasing by ( ONLY ) 1.75% each year ( probably less for the next few years due to mine closures ) , WHEREAS there are 5,300 billion US dollars in the world, and the supply is increasing by 9% each year. The end result is obvious.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:51 - ID#28593)
Re: FCX Pr B, from Barron's/Capital Markets, August 16, 1993
"A one-of-a-kind security issued recently by Freeport McMoRan Copper & Gold offers a combination long sought by many investors: gold and
...acutally pays a dividend based on the price of gold, and it will be redeemed in 2003 at the then current value of gold. As such, the security
is a virtual proxy for owning the metal, but has the advantage of a current 3 1/2% dividend rate.
The six million preferred shares, each equivalent to 1/10 of an ounce
of gold...

Come August 2003, investors will get the cash value of 1/10 of an ounce of gold and, in the interim, they'll receive a quarterly dividend that
now ( 1993 remember, sdrer ) works out to a 3.5% yield. Since the dividend is based on 0.00875 of an ounce of gold, the payout will vary with the metal's price." Barrons/Capital Markets, August 16, 1993

I've edited, but retained the salient points...hope this helps...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:52 - ID#20136)
We are talking big bucks here, the IMF will sell the bonds to ...
Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 11:43
vronsky ( THE PONZI SCHEME ) ID#426220:

THE IMF IS ATTEMPTING TO PERPETRATE in bailing out the World Bankruptcy:

IMF Rescue Loan to Mexico ( 1995 ) :..........$48 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Korea ( Present ) :........$55 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Thailand ( Present ) :.....$40 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Malaysia ( Present ) :.....$Yet Undetermined
IMF Rescue Loan to Japan ( Future ) :............$Experts Fear To Estimate

There are very few buyers that can come up with that kind of money without selling other assets ( like US bonds/ securities, or some other country's bonds/securities ) . THE IMF WILL SELL THEIR BONDS TO THE G7 COUNTRIES AND THEREBY MOVE TO THE NEXT STEP IN THE PONZI SCHEME. G7 WILL ELECTRONICLY MAKE THE CURRENCY NEEDED AND SINCE IT WILL "BE HIDDEN" IN THE IMF ALL WILL BE WELL ( NO INFLATION ... ) .

When will it end? Sooner than later, the risks are getting incredibly high!

Steve - Perth
(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:54 - ID#284177)
Steves specially edited NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

Rupiah dives to new low - despite IMF intervention

Argentine sell-off sends gold to lows

Japan shows worst growth rate since '74

The good, the bad and the ugly banks of Asia

The D-word is out -- but Greenspan didn't dwell on it

Asian currencies routed in plunge to record lows

Deflation is hitting home - oil included


Hedging looks the key to gold survival

Concern over Japanese Life Companies

IMF quietly hijacks separate Asian rescue fund

High Interest Rates & Unemployment to result from IMF $88bn deal

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:55 - ID#320441)
Gold in the 280s? If the Kitco chart is correct, we had that this morning.

Steve - Perth
(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:55 - ID#284177)
Gold plunge
I noticed that gold actually bounced off 290 today. 280 here we come...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:56 - ID#20136)
Should have marked where my comments started.
A.Goose ( We are talking big bucks here, the IMF will sell the bonds to ... ) ID#20136:
Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 11:43
vronsky ( THE PONZI SCHEME ) ID#426220:

THE IMF IS ATTEMPTING TO PERPETRATE in bailing out the World Bankruptcy:

IMF Rescue Loan to Mexico ( 1995 ) :..........$48 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Korea ( Present ) :........$55 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Thailand ( Present ) :.....$40 BILLION
IMF Rescue Loan to Malaysia ( Present ) :.....$Yet Undetermined
IMF Rescue Loan to Japan ( Future ) :............$Experts Fear To Estimate

Comments from A.Goose:
There are very few buyers that can come up with that kind of money without selling other assets ( like US
bonds/ securities, or some other country's bonds/securities ) . THE IMF WILL SELL THEIR BONDS

When will it end? Sooner than later, the risks are getting incredibly high!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:57 - ID#28593)
Vronsky, "11:43", and from the IMF's own MOUTH (before the 'crisis'...
in IMF Survey Supplement on the Fund 1996 - Liquidity

"IMF Position Weakens Further"\ft\survey\sup0996\11liquid.htm

and now i am 'away'...take care...
see you later

Crystal Ball
(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:59 - ID#287367)
I heard from Steven J. Kaplan ( of "Gold Mining Outlook" fame ) that Comex officials have announced that Iron Pyrite will be acceptable for delivery against the December gold futures contracts. Hey, why not? It's worth more than gold anyway! ;- )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 11:59 - ID#320441)
A humble opinion
A central bank ( Argentina ) announced sales, and the price of gold did not suffer appreciably. Perhaps that CB-sales-threat driven bear run on gold has punched itself out....

(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:01 - ID#426220)
Asian Currencies are all turning into PAPER!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:18 - ID#22956)
..........NightWriter................possible mistake.............
I do not see any charts saying gold in 280's. Perhaps it was a mistake. If it is true........uh oh.....for the bugs..... w/w


(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:25 - ID#22956)
Hot off the e-mail........yuk, yuk.....
I thought this joke would be funny for the Bulls and the Bears alike....


Joe was moderately successful in his career of choice, but as he got

older he was increasingly hampered by remarkably painful headaches. When

his personal hygiene and love life began to suffer, he sought medical

help. After being referred from one specialist to another, he finally

came across a doctor who solved the problem.

The doctor said, "I have good news, and I have bad news. The good news

is that I can cure your headaches, the bad news is that it will require

castration. You have a very rare condition which causes your testicles

to press up against the base of your spine. The pressure creates one

hell of a headache. The only way to relieve the pressure is to remove

the testicles."

Joe was, of course, both shocked and depressed. He indeed wondered if

he even had anything to live for at this point. Yet, he immediately

decided he had no choice but to go under the knife.

When he left the hospital his mind was at long last clear, but naturally

he felt like he was missing an important part of himself. As he walked

down the street, he felt like an entirely different person.

He walked past a men's clothing store and thought, "I'll buy a new suit.

Maybe that will cheer me up."

He entered the shop and told the salesman, "I'd like a new suit."

The salesman eyed him briefly and said, "Let's see...size 44 long."

Joe laughed, "That's right, how did you know?"

"It's my job," said the salesman.

Joe tried on the suit. It fit perfectly.

As Joe admired himself in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about a

new shirt?" Joe thought for a moment and then said, "Sure ...."

The salesman eyed Joe and said, "Let's see, 34 sleeve & 16-and-a-half


Joe was once again surprised, "That's exactly right! How did you


"It's my job," said the salesman, very matter of factly.

Joe tried on the shirt, and it fit perfectly. As Joe adjusted the

collar in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about new shoes?"

Joe was on a roll by this point and said, "Well, Sure..." The salesman

eyed Joe's feet and said, "Let's see...nine-and-a-half...wide."

Joe was astonished, "That's right ... How did you know?"

"It's my job," said the salesman.

Joe tried on the shoes and they fit perfectly. Joe walked comfortably

around the shop and the salesman asked, "So, how about a new hat?"

Without hesitation, Joe said, "Sure..." The salesman eyed Joe's head and

said, "Let's see...7 5/8." Joe was astounded. "That's right! Man, how

can you tell all of this?"

"It's my job," reiterated the salesman.

The hat fit perfectly. Joe was feeling great, when the salesman asked,

"How about some new underwear?"

Joe hesitated for a second and said, "Sure..."

The salesman stepped back, eyed Joe's waist and said, "Let's see.. size


Joe laughed, "No, I've worn size 34 since I was 18 years old." The

salesman shook his head, "No, you can't wear a size 34. It would press

your testicles up against the base of your spine and give you one hell

of a headache."

As frustrating as chasing bottoms and tops, EH? grimace :-O!


i know, you did not need to know that.......

(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:25 - ID#234311)
A.Goose and all
I read with some interest the article concerning AG and the 'D' word ( deflation ) . I have another clueless question to toss around. If gold is viewed by the majority of investors as a commodity, rather than as true money, then could the consistent slide in the value of gold be a leading indicator of real deflation?

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:34 - ID#24140)
Nazi Gold and the Holocaust
To All

Some questions on gold confiscation during the depression

and prior to the second world war.

1. What are parallels to US confiscation of gold

and Nazi Germany confiscation of Gold ??

2. How come German Jews HAD so much gold if indeed

they did ? Didnt Germany confiscate gold in the same

manner as the US in the early 1930??

3. If German jews HAD so much physical gold and

had REFUSED to turn it in for fiat money as

Americans had done - then might that not have been

a contributing factor in their persecution by the

Nazi establishment?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 12:38 - ID#426220)
SILVER LINING by The Astrological Investor
Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:03 - ID#225283)

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:05 - ID#36965)
EB Joke
EB, thanks for that tight fit'n joke. Just about as tight as people are about buying gold right now. I'll try to match that but it may be tomorrow before I find a worthy response to such witicism.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:07 - ID#426220)
INGER LETTER FORECAST - December 2, 1997
Gene Inger Predictions:

Dow over 8,000; highs no doubt for S&P coming;

................................................while facts haven't changed.

What about a drop into mid-December? Well, my opinion is that's still coming, but as it will be a bullish pause for the moment, barring news of shock capability. Complete Market Forecast at:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:08 - ID#255151)

I remember Gold in 1984 - 1985. I shorted it from about $370 to below $300. It was Christmas 1984 and I was feeling rich. I gave it all back 3 months later. In March 1985, Gold locked limit up one day and never looked back. It topped out at around $500 just after the crash of 1987. It has been downhill ever since. Will the shorts get taken to the cleaners once again in '97-'98? I am on the long side this time.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:43 - ID#31868)
more options
Now we have options on the mutual funds.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:45 - ID#328159)
The value of Lek
re: vronsky's Dec 03 10:45 pointer to WHATS THE LEK LACKING? by Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D. at:

Readers might be interested in another of Hein's currency articles here:

"All Work and No Pay"

Fascinating stuff, since my web pages contain references to both

Leks and the global financial situation! The coins were called

Quindarkes, and were made of aluminium ( their weight being suggestive

of their value! The complete opposite experience of holding

a satisfyingly heavy QEII Sovereign or a Maple Leaf... )

Here is an extract from my comments on my own visit to Albania ( bear in mind this was written 10 years ago ) :

"In the morning we changed GBP 10 each, as advised, to Lek. This 112 Lek

( or so ) was sufficient for all additional wine, beer and spirits throughout the four full days in Albania, plus souvenirs bought in local shops ( sweets, biscuits, Turkish delight ) ...

The range of goods is extremely limited in the town shops, for example there were only about half a dozen types of confectionery [note: typical

confectionery was very crude, like a round ball of sugar]

I failed to spot any butcher's shops....

It was easy to get the impression going past in the

coach that the shops are virtually empty of goods [note: that's because

they were!]

...We looked in at a watch repairers shop,

where behind the screen an old man was working on clocks and watches that

would rarely be seen in junk shops in Britain. Perhaps one of the few digital clocks in the country is the big one over the State Bank of Albania in Tirana....

'Make do and mend' is common; one of our group related the tale of a shop

where holes in plastic buckets are repaired by a man with a hot iron, melting and joining the plastic....

...all kinds of goods are kept

functioning as long as possible, if at all repairable. Another example was a motorbike windshield which was apparently broken at some time and had all the pieces glued back together like crazy paving."

For a frightening, paranoid view of the future, substitute Dollars for

Lek and America for Albania... - financial page - meltdown page - Steve Blizard's edited news via Oz

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:48 - ID#57232)
Gold reversals
Auric: Could you think about what happened during the switches from Gold bears to bulls -- eg, was there any warning -- other indicators ? Anything we can follow? I have a small amount long on gold stocks right now, but I am afraid to add more because there micht be another stock market correction ( or worse ) coming? I have been trying to make a gold bear into a bull for over 1 year now - and am tired of losing money.

My guess is that the pending gold rally will be more free-market like than the current bear - obviously manipulated. However, this will only be after gold regains its respectability as a "flight to safety". We see this already in the premiums of non-bullion gold coins, but the "paper" specialists still have a stranglehold and won't let loose.

I wonder, would it make sense to plot the non-bullion gold coin premium to bullion ratio? When that skyrockets, we may have a good leading indicator.

We could also plot the weighted price of gold in currencies not pegged to the dollar. I wonder, what percentage of the world's currencies now have rising gold prices rather than falling ones? I know the tide is turning, and it won't be long before the US dollar is "the last man out".

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:49 - ID#194311)
More timely dirt on gold
Swiss urge for strong franc boosted Nazi ties
LONDON, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - The world might have been a very
different place today had the Swiss not been so obsessed by the
idea of a strong national currency backed by gold.
Documents released by the Swiss and German delegations at an
international conference on Nazi gold on Tuesday reveal that
almost above all else, Berne worried about its currency being
devalued because of the war.
Once the Allies froze Swiss gold reserves in New York,
London and Ottawa in 1941, the Swiss became more dependent on
gold purchases from Germany to keep its currency stable.
The Swiss franc became the only universally accepted means
of international payment for both the Germans and the Allies and
Berne calculated that as long as this remained the case, the
more chance it would have of remaining independent.
"The gold transactions during this period were not prompted
by motives of enrichment but by the need to maintain the
stability of the country and protect it against a possible
foreign invasion," said a report by the Swiss National Bank
( SNB ) .

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:51 - ID#194311)
get down you beast....
Allies knew Nazi victims' gold went to banks -WJC
LONDON, Dec 3 ( Reuter ) - The three Western Allied powers
knowingly used gold stolen by the Nazis from individuals to
restock European central banks looted by Germany in World War
Two, the World Jewish Congress ( WJC ) charged on Wednesday.
WJC executive director Elan Steinberg said recently
declassified post-war documents found in the U.S. National
Archives proved the Allies knew 50 to 60 tonnes of individuals'
gold went into a pool used to pay central banks.
The documents appeared to be 1949 or 1950 records of the
U.S. delegation to the Tripartite Gold Commission ( TGC ) , which
was set up with Britain and France after the war to return
so-called monetary gold to central banks looted by Germany,
Steinberg said.
"These documents we have located prove that the Gold
Commission was well aware that tonnes of the gold in their
reserve which they were handing over only to central banks was
non-monetary," Steinberg told reporters.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:55 - ID#194311)
it's slowly dawning on the gurus....
Asian turmoil could still come to haunt Europe
LONDON, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Europe has so far remained largely
unscathed by Asia's financial turmoil, but speculation has begun
to emerge over the potential dangers to European growth and the
EU's planned single currency.
From a pure economic standpoint, most analysts and EU
policy-makers are sanguine over the possible contagion effects
from the crisis engulfing major economies such as South Korea
and Japan.
"If the Asian crisis becomes deeper and more protracted,
this is going to have an impact on European growth," says
Avinash Persaud, head of currency research at J.P. Morgan in
"It will have a bigger impact than most models suggest
because of the importance of confidence and expectations in the
investment process."
They see the most worrisome and unpredictable aspect of
Asia's troubles as what would happen if the pace of bank and
business failures creates a credit crunch.
"What we can't measure is the kind of damage that could come
about if capital markets basically freeze up," says George
Magnus, chief international economist at Union Bank of
Switzerland in London.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 13:57 - ID#194311)
now what is this about?
Russian Central Bank's gold reserves plunge by $3.5 billion

MOSCOW, Dec 3 ( AFP ) - The Russian Central Bank's gold reserves
fell by 3.5 billion dollars in the past two weeks and now stand at
18 billion dollars, the bank's chairman Sergei Dubinin said
Wednesday, quoted by Interfax.
Dubinin said the plunge in reserves was linked to the crisis on
global financial markets.
An improvement on Russian financial markets would depend largely
on the ability of Russian commercial banks to fulfil their contracts
for foreign exchange transfers to foreign banks, he said.
Such deals have multiplied since foreign investors began pulling
out of the Russian government debt market following the crisis on
Asian stock markets in late October.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:10 - ID#269409)
@ Blufarsky2000.....don't wanna hear from LGB
Blut, re your earlier post, yes I agree, heaven forbid that anyone post here who ever has even the slightest amount of accuracy in their prognostications, or sucess in their investment calls eh? Results, success, and facts are held in MIGHTY low esteem on this forum. ( Which explains perhaps the contrast with the investors here vs. the rest of the poor deluded, wealthy, sheeplike, Lemmings who invested in the DOW and shied away from Gold the last few years eh! )

Nope, I'd rather be impoverished with a nice chart and graph cycle theory on my side, any day, rather to actually make MONEY on my investments. ( After all, money is a farce anyway and you can't trade it for goods and services like you can with little lumps of bullion right?? )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:10 - ID#22956)
Perhaps Ted needs to try that. Eh, Ted? Give it a try for the headaches...hehehe...



(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:10 - ID#57232)
Dawn for the Gurus - Europe affected too!
Kiwi: And we know what was coming months ago! The investment gurus would look like stars if they read your, Donald's, Steve-Perth's news posts, as well as those of numerous others. Which country will be first, and last?

My guess is that the UK, by staying out of the EMU/ECU bandwagon, will be one of the least affected. Of course Switzerland will be relatively unscathed, although they will be nervous about having a Swiss Frank that is too strong.

Since what once was Russia is technically part of Europe, my vote is that Russia will be first this winter, with a market crash and winter famines. Looks like the market crash has already begun. This would also explain Boris Y's abrupt shift toward being unfriendly to the Americans.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:16 - ID#194311)
you are becoming truly gloating, abrasive, repetitive and exceedingly dull.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:19 - ID#269409)
Homestake Mining...dumpster...SSC, BUY!!
That Bellweather GOLD North American blue chip, Homestake, is approaching it's 5 and 11 year lows, might cause even an equities DIPSTER to take note and consider what a nice "buy point" might be. I have assiduously avoided the Gold mining shares so far, ( to me great relief ) and I don't see a bottom yet, but the bottom is at least drawing nigh...within th next three months we'll be there. Meanwhile, time for me to move back into SSC today ( a small stake ) due to it's untimely downtrun and buy opportunity. Ive made 2 good short term plays on it in the past 2 months. It's been volatile around .75 to 1.25. Plenty of profit opportunity playing the volatility and if you get caught long, so much the better as it will far outperform lowly Gold stocks in the next 1 to 2 years.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:20 - ID#57232)
No Gold reserves in Russia?
Kiwi: Synchronicity! Someone posted in the last few days that the IMF was bailing out of Russia. I think it was Donald.

I remember also that one of the posts said that Russia was buying gold. Looks like that was a smoke screen.

I think Russia will be the next domino to fall -- China is in much better shape, despite the $300 billion plus uncollectible debt in SOE's.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:23 - ID#23782)
I have misplaced or given away all my copies of
"The Art". Can anyone quote some?
I need a fix

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:26 - ID#373403)
And the slingshot gets pulled back further with Argentina
I get more and more amused by these weekly threats and announcements of sales. It has become so transparent that the central banks are desperate on the price issue. To have so many involved in a conspiracy of this type with no leaks means there are serious repurcussions to gold moving upward. Trouble is, the more gold goes down the more people I talk to who are interested in taking a physical position. The downside risks become less and less with mines closing and demand increasing.

I am excited about the prospect of the manipulators losing their grip.


(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:27 - ID#269409)
@ Kiwi
To each their own Kiwi. To me, dull is 500 word pontifications about arcane events that ultimately have little or no impact at all on the markets. Something we see here about 90% of the time.

As the only true contrarian here, ( now that URIS/HEP has apparantly been censored once again ) , I have little choice but to carry on in annoyingly correct and truthful fashion, something that diehard Goldbugs may not want to hear, but good for balance nonetheless.

After all Kiwi, do you not find it tiresome to read the same old Gloom and Doom predictions week after week, month after month, and what their supposed impatcs will be on Gold/DOW, and then have every single one of them fail to materialize? This is not dull and boring to you? Or Boorish? Yeah I guess you're right, it does provide comic relief to our lives....and most of the time I wonder to myself, "Are all these folks really satirists...funnin with the world?" Me thinks they are, they gotta be!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:30 - ID#334219)
LGB: May I ask what is your rationale for buying SSC. Altough it is one of the "original three" US silver companies, it is now one of the most expensive silver play.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:32 - ID#390214)
...which exchange does SSC trade in...


(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:35 - ID#261190)

LGB: Yes, you have managed to call some good shots. No question about it. You are also a good spin doctor on telling this forum how accurate you have been. After the 20th time of reading your self assessment, My Eyes Glaze Over.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:37 - ID#28861)
nomercy: Try DBC/now CBS MarketWatch - SSC trades on the NY exchange

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:39 - ID#269409)
@ CC, No SSC
SSC trades in NYSE. My rationale for playing it is not that it's a "value" stock ( since it has so many shares outstanding and doesn't show strong fundamentals ) but rather that it is highly liquid, trades in high volume ( more so than any other SIlver Mining shares ) and therefore a good play for both short term volatility plays, and also for long term Silver "sentiment" plays. When Silver rises, the folks least familiar with the mining shares will still buy SSC because it's the stock they know.

As far as a long term play, I feel SSRIF is one of the best and it's made a nice move up from 3.5 lately to around $4.00. I have a few shares of SSRIF but plan to add more in the neat future.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:42 - ID#269409)
@ Blutarsky.....OK
Point well taken Blut, all you folks have to do to shut me up ( for a day or two anyway! ) is say, "Dammit LGB, OK you've been right so far, we'll see about the long run, we'll be open to your rationale, and meanwhile shut the F$$$ up about your market calls!"

P.S. you DO have to allow me a friendly jabbing of Puetz now and then though.... New Moon today Puetzky.....Puetz? You there Puetz????????

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:44 - ID#194311)
lurky turky
you always good for a bite...gobble, gobble...bite me.

Now instead of using this forum to tally up your "winnins" on the shock market how abouts bringing to bear on the world financial situation your astute analysis and incredible acumen of socio-political implications of the historical geo-cultural interactions between the various human races inhabiting our living organism planetsphere and the influences from interplanetary forces, aliens and GOLD.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:46 - ID#194311)
oppps that was really untimely of me, sorry just jibing you know?
No grudges just a little fun.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:46 - ID#31868)
Silver as a scalded cat
If you want to watch a silver stock move try ASM / ASGMF this stock will run rings around any other silver for price movement. Period.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:48 - ID#31868)
Wednesday December 3, 2:03 pm Eastern Time

Global stock regulators worried by auditor merger

MADRID, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Global stock market regulators are worried about the lack of independence of accounting firms amid increased concentration in the sector, the chairman of the Spanish stock market commission CNMV said on Wednesday.

``In the opinion of IOSCO ( the association of world stock market regulators ) there are concerns about this concentration,'' Juan Fernandez-Armesto told an energy conference.

There are huge mergers in progress between Coopers & Lybrand and KPMG and Ernst & Young.

``In just a few years we have gone from accounting as an independent profession to the existence of three large multinationals, who also function as auditors.

``The process, in my opinion, has not been developed with sufficient reflection and before the final concentration shows its effects, it would be positive if all of us evaluated the consequences of what is taking place,'' Fernandez-Armesto said.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 14:55 - ID#93232)

We are merely fans of the mighty "GOLDBUGS"! We move in unison ....we have perfected the "stadium wave" and proudly cheer our team on to victory. No real need to remind ourselves of our team's record...we enjoy pulling together. This may be all the profit some of us may get.
I read an interesting paper the other day which presented a convincing argument that these cyber communities offer more to an individual in the sense of "belonging" than the neighborhoods in which we live.
Personally, I think we need a new quarterback...or maybe a dollarback...GO MIGHTY GOLDBUGS!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:04 - ID#261190)

Fair enough. Why not just get over Mr. Puetz? Again, after the 20th time of reading about it, MEGO. Besides, he owes me $200.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:07 - ID#194311)
Consider this...comments welcome
Head banker from Russia just declares Russia has suffered US$3.5 billion in gold losses in the past two weeks. They are only buying gold so the only reason I can imagine they "lost" on gold is because the price dropped, I'm sure they wouldn't announce their trading

Is he really giving a thinly vieled threat to the world bankers that Russia's gold reserves are of the order of US$88 billion worth. This is accounting for the $12 drop in gold since 19 Nov....two weeks ago. A US$3.5 billion loss for a US$12 drop means they have around US$88 billion worth.
Now this would really change the equation much gold is that anyway?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:26 - ID#364147)
@ EB
Go 'golden NUGGETS' and sToP hitting below the belt~~~~~~~~

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:29 - ID#364147)
Selby + GSC
You may be right.......unions ( especially CUPW ) SUK~~~~~~

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:29 - ID#255151)

Re Gold sales-- Australia sold 167 tons, correct? At 32,000 ounces per ton, that is roughly 5,344,000 ounces. Assume an average price of $350 per ounce? That works out to about 2 Billion US Dollars. They have thrown that money into SE Asia and S. Korea, from what I understand. I feel like crying when I read about betrayals such as this.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:36 - ID#426220)
GOLD VERSUS THE DOLLAR by Milhouse (Hong Kong)
Hong Kong analyst Milhouse shares his latest economic and financial wisdom. Again, he draws special attention to the significance of Money Supply. Correctly he observes, If confidence in financial assets and government controlled currencies was to significantly reduce, then the total gold reserves of all Central Banks ( worth 320 billion dollars at current gold prices ) could be absorbed in an instant by private investors.

Of monumental import is his assertion that  must be
remembered that there are 3.8 billion ounces of gold in the world
and the supply is increasing by ( ONLY ) 1.75% each year ( probably less for the next few years due to mine closures ) , WHEREAS there are 5,300 billion US dollars in the world, and the supply is increasing by 9% each year. The end result is obvious.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:43 - ID#246224)
$88Bln @ $305 = 288.5 Mln ounces; About 8,200 tonnes ( 288,500,000/32151 troy ounces )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:44 - ID#246224)
Correction that's 8975 tonnes.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:50 - ID#339274)
..Blonde @ 11:21 :Lehman should have come out with their recommendation last year this time when the intermediate cycle was topping out and
save their clients lots of money.The intermediate cycle is due to bottom
at around the end of April,short term is bottoming at the beginning
of next week to be topping out at the end of January.In the background
is the longterm bottoming in the year 2001.I wouldn't know what the
price would be that I will leave to the market to decide.
Right now the tax loss fire sale is on good luck.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:50 - ID#246224)
Suggested emblem for 'Gold Bug 'Team
Giant golden artillary round just fired from cannon with devilish, toothy grin headed straight at ya'.

Mascot: Pit Bull with Equities broker's leg in mouth races up and down the sidelines to cheers of crowd.

Music: Alien invasion music sequence from "Independence Day" movie.

Coach: LGB2_A??? Nahhhhh! Open for suggestions.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:52 - ID#295111)
Lehman's latest forcast
Wednesday December 3, 10:38 am Eastern Time

Lehman bearish on gold stocks

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Lehman Brothers said Wednesday it remained bearish on gold mining stocks and recommended
reducing positions in the sector.

-- In a research note, analyst Peter Ward said, ``We do not believe gold mining equities have fully discounted the drastic decline in gold
price which has already taken place. In addition, we believe there is a real possibility gold could decline even lower.''

-- Said would continue to reduce positions in Amax Gold Inc ( NYSE:AU - news ) , Barrick Gold Corp ( Toronto:ABX.TO - news ) ,
Homestake Mining Co ( NYSE:HM - news ) , Newmont Mining Corp ( NYSE:NEM - news ) and Placer Dome Inc ( Toronto:PDG.TO -
news ) .

-- Cited Barrick as having the most attractive valuation and a very healthy financial position, but said ``unless gold prices rebound
significantly, we do not believe Barrick shares will outperform the S&P 500 over the next 12 months.''

-- Called a significant and sustainable rise in gold price unlikely over the next year.

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:53 - ID#24140)
To All

I have had only one response to my question on Nazi Gold seized from

German Jews. The response seemed to assume that my question arose from

an anti Jewish bias. Not so -

But my question still stands - did the Germans NOT confiscate ALL

gold ( as the Americans did ) or only loot Jewish gold ??.

Perhaps the answer is simple. Maybe they did NOT follow the US

example and call in everybody's gold in return for fiat money. I dont


Does anyone know the answer.??Its a question I imagine some Swiss

bankers may be asking.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:58 - ID#372180)
Gold up or down?
I've really enjoyed the opinions and market insights expressed by the group here ( I've been lurking for more than a month now ) . However, I'd like to express some of my own opinions on the matter of gold.

I'm strictly a technical trader and my own worst enemy is my own opinion of where commodities and stocks might go. I love gold, the look, feel, warmth I get from holding it and I own alot of physical quantities, but when it comes to trading, my indicators say sell short and run with the pack and until stopped out by a reversal my position remains the same. I fight hard to keep my emotions out of my trading ( It's taken years for me to learn to keep it in check ) . Gold is just a commodity...a vehicle for gaining wealth and must be thought of that way at all times when trading. However, if you love to hold it in your hand, definitely do it might feel a little burned if it goes to $250US, but the gold you hold in your hand is generally not for trading so no great loss.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 15:58 - ID#31868)
John Disney
Let's face the facts that everybody robbed everybody. That part is safe. And let us not forget that Jews robbed Jews. Germans robbed Germans. So forth and so on.

Mike Stewart
(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:01 - ID#270253)
Royal Oak
I just saw a million shares of Royal Oak cross the ticker at $1.60 CDN ( $1.125 US $ ) . There is either some bad new about to be announced or this is market capitulation at its best. I haven't seen any other RYO trades since, so I expect the latter.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:03 - ID#295111)
Wednesday December 3, 12:04 pm Eastern Time

INTERVIEW-Barrick upbeat on Peru's Pierina

By Eduardo Orozco

LIMA, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Canadian miner Barrick Gold Corp [NYSE:ABX - news] believes its Pierina deposit in northern Peru could soon turn into one of Latin America's biggest gold mines.

That would make Pierina Peru's second largest gold-producer after Minera Yanacocha which runs the biggest gold-mine in Latin America, also in the north of this mineral-rich Andean nation.

Yanacocha, a joint venture run by Newmont Mining Corp and local firm Minera Buenaventura S.A., currently produces nearly half of Peru's total gold output through heap-leaching operations at its open-pit mines.

The Barrick official said his company invested between $50 million and $60 million on exploration at Pierina in the last year. ``Starting
up the project would mean an investment of more than $250 million,'' he added.

According to Barrick's most recent studies, proven gold reserves at Pierina, 260 miles ( 420 km ) north of Lima and 13,000 feet ( 4,000
meters ) above sea-level, are around 6.5 million ounces. Preliminary surveys have also shown a gold content at the site of 3.2 grams
per tonne, resulting in an initial production cost of between $50 and $100.

The Barrick official added that the company's Pierina deposit also contained more than 50 million ounces of silver.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:04 - ID#255151)
TechTrader__A-- 15:58 Kitco Post

TechTrader__A-- Well stated. FWIW, I agree.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:05 - ID#426220)
For the last last week I have been poring over reports and analysis from all major financial news-wire services of nearly all the world's financial centers. My purpose was to do research and gather enough material for a comprehensive report to attempt to describe and delineate what some are calling the THE DOMINO EFFECT, causing havoc in global currencies and world stock markets... and toppling banks, brokerage houses and insurance companies IN Asia.

I searched and studied hundreds of documents from private and public sources to find a path through the maze. But the more I read, the more lost I became in the financial quicksand sucking in all of Asia, parts of Europe and Latin-America... which seems to be relentlessly engulfing more and more geographical area.

I am in a perplexing labyrinth, not knowing where to TRY TO start putting into words a coherent and comprehesible picture of this contagion cancerous mess. It seems an almost imposssible task... like trying to untangle a 15 pound ball of steel wool into all of its separate strands.

That the IMF should delude itself into thinking it can resolve the growing financial disarray shadowing the earth by JUST throwing a few billions of SDRs here and there, is IMHO, the epitome of institutional stupidy at best, or an expressed attempt to DECEIVE THE PUBLIC AT WORST.'s A 15 POUND BALL OF STEEL WOOL

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:06 - ID#339274)
Royal Oak
...Mike ,I believe that is the case,I personally have been buying
the shares at 1 1/4 and 1 3/16 and believe in a bounce.
None of the fundamentals have changed,except the gold has gone lower.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:06 - ID#171240)
Central Banks Selling of Gold
Something to ponder:

In the early eighties, Reagan's advisors told him to look into a gold backed currency ( feasibility study ) . What the study showed was that America had no gold in Fort Knox to support such a currency and that all the good delivery gold was being kept by the Fed as collateral against the Deficit. My guess is this is the same situation in every country that has a private Central Bank that uses a fiat currency. The key is to find out who is purchasing this huge amount of gold through the LBMA. My guess is the World Bank. Anyone else agree with this theory? There are alot of scenarios from this viewpoint.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:08 - ID#28594)
A. Goose: the distinctioon between "bad banks with bad assets" - "good banks with good assets"
may not be as 'fire-walled' as we've led to believe...
" a bank regulatory change was announced in the media on the morning of November 8, 1994. That regulatory change enabled banks to avoid book losses by choosing not to sell bonds held in portfolio as
"available for sale" whose prices were FALLING.

Henceforth, regulators would NOT require banks to mark-to-market those

Before the change, banks had to book a capital loss on such bonds, regardless of whether they sold them at a loss, or continued to hold them
and took a mark-to-market loss..."

Perhaps we shouldn't be pointing fingers at our Japanese brethren?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:13 - ID#31868)
Blaming the Japanese is rediculous like I stated yesterday. The banks and governments screw everybody and then pull out the race card issue.
I do not blame the regular folks anywhere, it is clearly the governments and the banks.


John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:14 - ID#24140)
For Tolerant1 -

I agree - everybody robbed everybody.

What the Nazis did to the Jews was awful - horrible.

However, I still want an answer. The Americans called

in ALL GOLD from everybody. What was the date - 1932??

anyone know ??

What about Europe - did they follow that example or

PERMIT individual gold holding ?? Anybody know ??

Did Nazi Germany permit non-Jews to hold gold ?? The

more I think of this, the more I doubt it, but I dont

know and I want to.

Is anyone else interested ??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:16 - ID#28594)
Prisbrian, 16:06, Have you ever heard of the SDR?
I thought your comments very interesting, particularly in view
of my informal research. I think you'll find helpful the following report:

It is over 20 pgs long, so printing it out makes for a more
comfortable read ( take along a tot of Glenlivet, for medicinal purposes of course ) .

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:21 - ID#402251)
Tales From The Criptic
As ANOTHER has said here,not so long ago,

The market is cornered,but by who we don't know.

It's now pretty obvious,for those who doth follow,

For the smoke screen was up,and many did swallow.

In who's currency is GOLD now so cheap?

And from what country have we not heard a peep?

All countries are selling,but noone are buying?

How can this be,unless some they are lying?

So here lies the answer,and a tale to be told,

Of the exchange of paper,for old yeller GOLD,

Never again this mystery in the history of man,

Will so few own so much,thanks to Uncle Sam.

Short lived will it be,so the scriptures they say,

In the timeline of man,a year is a day.

The rich shall be poor,and the poor shall be rich,

Isreal's Streets Of Gold in time is a stitch.


(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:22 - ID#249453)
Chart: xau back to 1984

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:22 - ID#31868)
John Disney
I do not have the specific information to provide you with. I am sure one better informed than me will attack this question and provide an answer.

FDR did not descriminate, he robbed everyone.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:23 - ID#20137)
SDRer__A ( A. Goose: the distinctioon between "bad banks with bad assets" - "good banks with good
assets" ) ID#28594

I love it SDRer. Profit by definition.

Is it just me or is volume on the comex drying up. Looks like volume is really getting low on a daily baisis.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:29 - ID#171240)
Reply to SDR
I got the following message when I "hit" your web page: FILE NOT FOUND on this server. Please recheck am very interested in reading

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:31 - ID#20137)
XAU is never going to be the same.
Long low can PGU remain under $1.00 before it is delisted??? Which company would be chosen to replace it??

PGU 4:00PM 11/16 -3/16 -21.43%

Could get interesting.

TVX 4:00PM 2 7/16 -1/8 -4.88%
ECO 4:02PM 2 5/16 +1/8 +5.71%
BMG 4:01PM 4 11/16 -3/16 -3.85%

Will Tvx go below a dollar????

News Server
(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:31 - ID#390100)
Nazi Gold

John Disney, Try entering "Nazi Gold" in this search
engine. Post if you find anything of interest?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:34 - ID#28594)
Vronsky 15 Pound Ball of Steel Wool (nice metaphor!)

I agree, totally. But would suggest ( hope ) that there are two opposing groups ( at the top, many minor groups hunting/fighting for feeding positions.

There is the CB/IMF group best represented by James Joyces stream-of-consciousness Ulysses ( Now in Control; there is the Volker/Gyohten/Karl Blessing/IMF represented by Homers Odysseus , The A Team, who are in sympathy with all just wrote.

John Disney@12:34
It is a pleasure to watch your mind work an issue!

News Server
(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:43 - ID#390100)
John Disney: Unclean Hands in US and Britain?

I think you will like this one. Do the the Fed and Britain have unclean hands in matters golden?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:47 - ID#316193)
J. Orlin Grabbe has a story (lengthy) everyone should read....

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:49 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.46

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:50 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .236

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:53 - ID#28594)
PrisBrian, I've whipped over to the sight & copied the URL for you
after the market closes, net traffic gets heavy and ISP's give
various messages when they can't get you thru; but here it is,
right from the sight. Wish I could say enjoy, but as an American,
I can't. So I'll settle for "Be Enlightened" and then we'll
fight the good fight...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 16:58 - ID#401237)
4,000,000 OZs SOLD
CNBC reported:
"Australia sold 4 million ozs. this am" x 290 = $1,160,000,000.00
Must have needed some pocket change.

Of course, they didnt say who the buyer was.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:06 - ID#259160)
John Disney yours of 12:34
Right John, ALL Germans and Americans who did not turn in
their gold were sent to concentration camp OVENS. Excuse me for
being lugubrious.....but give it up. Where is WW to keep this site straight?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:13 - ID#31868)
How did you get that out of the Disney post. I just went back and reread it. Please explain your last post.

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:29 - ID#24140)
Bernie's attitude
For Bernie -

I somehow get the feeling that you dont like my question - if not

why not - Obviously - sending people to gas ovens is dreadful and

jews suffered horribly prior to 1945 in Germany. However, Bernie -

freedom of speech cuts in all directions - just because Jews were

victims of one of the worst atrocities in this century does not give

them the right to stop me asking questions about it 50 years later.

Sorry if you are offended - but IF you are offended please tell me

why ?? Otherwise , please can it.

Do you know the answer?. Was gold confiscated by the German government

as it was by the US government during that period?? Do you know the

answer ???

I tried the Nazi gold site - mainly things about how bad the Swiss

are - Not much use..

(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:31 - ID#373403)
John Disney
Your question is did Jews failure to hand gold over after confiscation laws passed have any impact on their being murdered?

Yes, I think greed was a major factor for both the slaughter of Jews and for trying to take over the world on the part of the germans. If the English, French, Belgian, Polish, Hungarian, and Russian governments had turned over their countries when asked, massacres of those people would not have occurred either.

What was your point again?


(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:31 - ID#57232)
Russian gold reserves?
Kiwi: My guess is that Russia has almost no gold reserves for the following reasons:

1 ) The Russian financial system seems to be coming apart. Reason - The Russians kicked out some respectable Western investment/banking firms for "suspicious" banking/investing practices - there were 6 or so in a prior Kitco post. Remember the bonds that became mysteriously missing? Also, the IMF has apparently withdrawn support ( Donald post several days ago ) . The Russian stock market is dropping.

2 ) Many non-gangster Russians have not been paid for months, despite Yeltsin's promises to the contrary.

3 ) The Russian Ruble, thought to be stable, was recently dropping again.

4 ) Yeltsin has suddenly switched from being pro-American, or at least neutral, to anti-American posture. Very unusual, unless severe internal trouble. Remember the American just accused for spying?

5 ) Yelstin has been negotiating heavily with ( former ) communist party members -- indicating political weakness.

My impression from all of this is that official Russia is probably broke, and we cannot believe the gold reserve numbers reported. What if the Russian central bank has been infiltrated by gangsters -- like virtually everything else in Russia - and the gold had been stolen?

If Russia had gold reserves, he probably would have spent them already to stabilize the Ruble, or pay all those unpaid Russians anyway. Either way you look at it, Russia is in deep trouble.

News Server
(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:34 - ID#390100)
Nazi Gold

Check this out....

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:45 - ID#24140)
MissingLink's attitude
For the missing link -

You assume that Germany had confiscation laws in place. Is that correct?

From that assumption, you then presume that Jews were in non-compliance.

I really do not know. The question is not intentionally biased in any

way but I really want to know.

Were all Germans compelled to turn in their gold ?? Did non-Jews

comply and Jews not comply ?? Is this the case ??

Is this question so emotionally loaded that I cant ask it??

Sorry about that -

(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:46 - ID#228100)
German Gold
Everyone knows a little about these horrible acts of the 1940's. So what are you saying? That we try to track down every ounce, then return it to some 5th cousin in Albania? If not, how is this possibly relevant to today's market?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 17:48 - ID#201238)
comex golds stocks - getting interesting

Comex silver warehouse stocks FELL 424,395 oz to 127,827,375 oz

Comex gold warehouse stocks FELL 31,649 oz to 729,124 oz ALL OF THE DECLINE IS FROM ELIGIBLE STOCKS which now stand at 169,424 oz to cover 194,540 contracts or ONLY .87 ounces of gold per 100 oz contract. Delivery notices for today were 702 contracts bringing the total for December to 5,067 contracts. The open interest in Dec is 3,107 contracts. If enough of them take delivery, comex will be out of eligible gold, then it would be all paper ( its only 99% paper now! )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:01 - ID#255151)
JTF @ 13:48

JTF-- Nope. I never saw it coming. In retrospect, the Dollar was much too strong vis a vis the DM and Yen. Gold went down to about $285 at its nadir. I almost Ralphed ( Get it? Ralph nadir?... ) . Anyway, I was short Gold in the Spring of 1985. The mini bull market went from about $285 then, to just over $500 by late Autumn of 1987. Fortunately, I was playing with only about $5,000 then. Damn if I wasn't just over $20,000 at one point. I closed down my account in 1988 with about $4,000 cash, and an education in the pitfalls of hubris. But no, I never saw the bull coming.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:09 - ID#31868)
Who posted the info on taking delivery from COMEX? I looked but cannot seem to find it. If there is a URL that I could go to, anything on this suject would be helpful, thanks.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:09 - ID#426220)
WHATS THE LEK LACKING? by Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D.
Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D. shares his insightful views on Why a currency is strong or weak. His poignant example of a weak currency is the Albanian Lek vis--vis a strong currency, the Almighty Buck. It exudes common-sense logic... and is indeed a refreshing down to earth explanation of the underlying rationale:

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:12 - ID#24140)
Whose teeth were they anyway?????
To All

Found something interesting - seems like Gypsies who say they had

4 million killed in Ovens during the holocaust have a claim on the gold

too. They say Jewish groups appear not to recognize Nazi massacre of Gypsies.

Found a strange little magazine called scallywag -----

I quote

"But the gypsy question is one the Jews simply never consider.

The Holocaust for Romanies just didnt happen and, of course,

few gypsies rarely had any real possessions to speak of. Except

gold. Money was gold to any gypsy community, and

consequently they kept their gold reserves in their mouths. This is

not a Jewish habit. Yet it is a well known fact that the Nazis

wrenched the gold teeth out of the bodies they had so cruelly


Who did the teeth belong to? "

I think this is very interesting.

Gusto Oro
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:14 - ID#377235)
Murdered Ukrainians & gold...
8-10 million Ukrainians were either starved to death where they lived or otherwise arrested and murdered in the gulags of Stalin in the 1930's. Their gold was confiscated too by the way.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:15 - ID#259160)
tolerant1 yours of 17:13

I copied the third question from John Disney's post of 12:34 below:

3. If German jews HAD so much physical gold and

had REFUSED to turn it in for fiat money as

Americans had done - then might that not have been

a contributing factor in their persecution by the

Nazi establishment?

It is clear to me from this question the writer is trying to find a
little justification for Nazi actions. If the answer is yes, a few Jews
broke the law and refused to turn in their gold, then was this a
contributing factor to these few being prosecuted ( not persecuted ) .
Yes it was. Does this in any way justify the actions the Nazi's took
on the entire Jewish population. NO it does not. Ask yourself why
anyone would ask the above question.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:15 - ID#372344)
@ Tech Trader & Auric
The fundamentals of your theory albeit in part accurate, are seriously lacking , when looking at the BIG PICTURE of the history of paper currencies. Every paper currency ever printed is doomed to die, yes much
like all else in the COSMOS, they too have a cycle of birth, life and death.
The extensive list of graveyards of these currencies for every country,can be found at your local library.
Can you name a currency that has maintained its value in tact and is older than say 70 years?
Some currencies die swiftly, others are kept alive by artificial means for perods of time but eventually die. Of course I refer to their death when
compared to their original value not their name.
I agee entirely GOLD is soft, beautiful,warm, but did you know that it is
actually in our bodies, in small amounts of course.But more importantly,
Gold is and has been the SUPREME currency of last resort when all
paper currencies die.It is engraved in the minds of mankind as the
ultimate currency, thus the need for the most intense anti-GOLD propaganda campaign to date to keep it's price down, as part of an
artificial life support means of keeping the present currencies alive.
But sooner or later and it appears sooner now,the currency patient will die. I agree entirely with your theory when apllied to regular trading in
securities or commodities, but remember this, GOLD is not just another commodity, although it trades like a commodity, it is much much more

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:17 - ID#393224)
Canberra now covered in smoke from bushfires 200-300 miles away. Gold now covered in smoke from charlatan's chicanery.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:18 - ID#373403)
John Disney
No attitude, please do not try to bait me, I was just answering your question. You are the one who sees attacks in everyone elses posts.

It seems that in asking whether non-Jews complied with confiscation and Jews did not then might this be a contributing factor in their genicide.
Although it may not be your intent, this seems to be trying to assign contributory negligence on the part of Jews for non-compliance. Sort of like asking a rape victim if she had dressed provocatively.

If this is your querry, I find it improper. If not, maybe you could make your intentions a little more clear on this emotionally charged subject.


(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:25 - ID#255151)
Indy $500

TZADEAK*-- Enjoyed your last post, and yes, at some point in the future the Dollar could become worthless. However, the Dollar has room to go on the downside without upsetting the apple cart. My best guess is that Gold will be "allowed" to rise to the $500 area by 2000.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:25 - ID#344308)

excellent info on comex!! thanks.....tam bien---

do you have the delivery data for the last 6 months for
comparative purposes?

what COULD happen if some-body informed one of the talking heads at
the major financial networks of the staus of deliverable
amounts of gold versus contracts written?

if this news ever hits the public media machine, it is over.
time to become pro-active and get the word-out for the benefit
of all sleep-walkers, AND the sellers of gold. there are some
heavy dues to pay!!!!!!!!

who has some solid contacts with ski-slope herrera, or maria
bartiromo? this info NEEDS to make copy!!!!

what do these folks live for?? the BIG story. lend a hand.......

cherokee!; ) ---burning-the-ether-to-the-talking-heads-of-the-networks---

Spud Master
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:26 - ID#273112)
Very good point, John Disney...
John is trying to point out the EXTREME hypocrisy swirling about so-called "Nazi gold". We all know the Jewish people suffered cruely from Nazi atrocities, but as another poster just mentioned, so did several OTHER groups as well. You *NEVER* hear of them mentioned in this Swiss return of gold.

It makes it pretty obvious that this "gold giveback", after 50 years ( gee, we just now discovered what had happened! Yea, sure. ) is part of the continuing world-wide cabal/conspiracy to drive down the price of gold. Face it: even if the gold is returned - 60% to 75% of it will line the pockets of lawyers, brokers and politicians.

And while we are at it, let we Americans make our own war reparation payments to the surviving American Indians of our own genocide effort ( oh my, Americans, genocidic! But we're supposed to be the good guys! ) .

British must pay the Welsh & Irish
Americans must pay the American Indians
French and Spanish must pay the Basque
Inodnesians must pay the East Timorese
Japanese must pay the Koreans
Chinese must pay the Himalayeans
Russians must pay the Ukranians, Byleorussians, Crimean Tartars, Khazakistaninis, Siberians...
Dutch must pay the Balinese
Zulus must pay the Xhosa
Africaners must pay the Zulus
Brazilians must pay the Amazonas Indians
Argentinians must pay the Tierra del Fugeans
French must pay the Algerians
Turks must pay the Armenians

man ... this list just goes on & on & on ... is there enough gold to pay everyone off???!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:29 - ID#280222)
Sharefin: What is Lihir's symbols ( on which exchange ) ? Do you know its strengths and weaknesses? Outlook?....John Disney, what about Anglo ( symbols and exchange ) strenghths and weaknesses? ( This is the one that absorbed Western Areas, is it not? )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:34 - ID#210114)
There have been rumours going about for the last few months about a CB sale of about 200 tons. Does anyone know if that was the Argentinian sale??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:38 - ID#255190)
HighRIse @ Garbled text, seeking clarification

You report AUSTARLIAN 4 Mln oz sale this MORNING???

There was report of ARGENTINA 4 Mln oz sale during SPRING of 1997. Is this what you are reporting or is the new "sale" anouncement as you have stated???

4 Mln oz = 124.4 metric tonnes

I thought the Aussie's sold 75% of their gold in July ( 167 tonnes? ) which would indicate the Government, anyway, only had 55 tonnes remaining.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:41 - ID#261190)

You might be onto something with them Gold Claims. Any attorneys lurking that could advise on class action suits? How much Gold does it take to buy a nice suit these days?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:41 - ID#255190)
Nick@C We are soory for the hard time you are having

Hopefully this will not combined with a currrency/equities crisis in OZ like Indonesia had earlier to make it bad in every respect. Are you out of harms way???

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:44 - ID#93232)
tolerant1 inquiry re: COMEX
Tyler Rose's posts last evening demonstrated expertise in taking delivery at COMEX...

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:46 - ID#24140)
for Sharefin

Symbol is ANGLY and you can follow ADR price at -

Strength - huge diversified resource company with massive gold plat

diamond coal involvement.

Weakness - see above

For BERNIE - Gee bernie you found me out - IM ADOLPH HITLER -

but PuLeze dont tell my wife, mishugannah - She's Jewish.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:48 - ID#210114)
Australian Sales
Australia sold 167 tons ( two thirds ) and kept 80 tons.. Those 80 tons are apparently not being considered for sale.

John Disney__A
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:49 - ID#24140)
Victim List
For Spudmaster

Please expand that list - I dont seem to be on it anywhere. At least

not yet -

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:53 - ID#35767)
Argentine Announcement
Ques. 1 ) Why Now? 2 ) Why mention the purchase of US Treasuries. Sounds like an ad to others to do as the Argentine and make money. With Argentina's record we should all be heartened. Given they are being bailed out on a continuous basis by US Treasury Brady Bonds ( which would get destroyed if US rates rise ) it is little wonder they would make such an announcement. The boys must really be worried about any gold rise as the real world financial structure is cracking worldwide.

Gusto Oro
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:55 - ID#377235)
Murdered Ukrainians & gold...
I didn't realize the extent of the persecution dealt to the Gypsies during the war years. They probably won't get more than token remuneration.

NBR guest says Mexico, Venezuela, and Peru as the big market gainers for next year. How many shopping days to new all-time highs in the Dow?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:57 - ID#364147)
Dec. gold down .70 @ 293.80..........EB: too bad about Shaq~~~~~~~~

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:59 - ID#26793)
CNBC mistakenly reported the gold sale as Australia, should have been Argentina. Hey; they both start with "A" and are south of the equator.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:59 - ID#31868)
Disney is looking for an answer. Gold would have been one of a multitude of reasons the Nazis rationalized exterminating the Jew. You seem to think there is so much more in the question than just a curious quest to a huge puzzle of which this is a miniscule piece.

In addition I have some Jew, Armenian, Christian, American, Russian and a few more mutt mixtures of race, culture and such coursing through my veins. I took no offense.

Dead is dead, murder is murder, robbery is robbery.

Spud Master
(Wed Dec 03 1997 18:59 - ID#273112)
re. "the List"
don't worry John, per the New World Order, any & all who oppose the NWO will be on "the List".

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:01 - ID#20137)
gold coins
I just went in to talk to my local dealer.

Of course, I talked to the girls. They said that they are quite busy. Delivers are extending out to 2 1/2 weeks. They are doing 50 ounces a day. A year ago it was dead, now business is brisk. I asked if they had anything on hand and they said nothing. If anything comes in its sold immediately. I told them that if anything happens to pop in give me a call -- because I'm a goose and I want more of that cheap gold.

How many of these little shops are there? How many are doing this much business??? What does that mean for gold availability???

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:02 - ID#393224)
Lihir Gold
Savage-- symbol for Lihir Gold is LHG. I have bought a truckload at these prices ( currently A$1.49 ) . Huge gold mine with production ahead of schedule. Only about 40%?? forward sold-- so will profit hugely or suffer depending on future prices. Now close to all-time low price.

Allen ( USA ) -- thankyou for your concern. Most of Australia is a tinderbox right now. Extremely hot, dry and windy. Combined with dry lightning storms,suspected arsonists??--not a good combination.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:02 - ID#426220)
SILVER LINING by The Astrological Investor
Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:04 - ID#210114)
Greed is not Good
CB sales have in recent times been much on my mind. Conspiracy theories aside, I have been trying to think of why the CBs continue to offload the yellow metal.

The Argentinians and my Australian central bank have said it is because they can make more money from US, German, and Japanese Government bonds.

That may be so, but that is to totally forget the reason to hold gold in the first place. Gold is a tangible assett which can be used in times of emergency. As many on this page have noted, paper money is just that and can indeed be the cause of emergency ( look at Thailand Malaysia etc. )

I think the short term view of the banks is wrong. If gold looses its value; so what? It is there for an emergency. It seems to me that the 80s attitude of greed is good is still with us and that this is why the banks are selling their gold.

What on earth are they going to use in times of trouble??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:05 - ID#20137)

You're right Donald. The next step is that they will just report " Some country sold some gold ... we think ... not sure anyone bought it ... news later ... maybe ...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:06 - ID#426220)
from one mutt to another mutt
tolerant1: from one mutt to another mutt, you're a great person!

Tyler Rose
(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:13 - ID#373164)

My post last night re: Comex deliveries was Dec 2, 21:40. As a follow up, I talked with Lind-Waldock today and they confirmed that I would receive one contract of gold, regardless of whether a short position elected to deliver or not. They said Comex would deliver in any event. This may answer some questions posed by Arden, as some of the shorts evidently can put their own gold up, as long as it conforms to the prescribed standards. I don't know whether they have to have it in Comex stocks, but would guess that they don't.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:15 - ID#372344)
@ Auric, multiple limit moves up
I am of the view that once the next Gold Bull begins it will be ushered in by a large number of days limit moves up ck out my post of Dec 01,1997
at 23:39 for some reasons ... more later

News Server
(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:16 - ID#390100)
Ron Brown Homicide?

Is this story credible?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:18 - ID#31868)
vronsky and Tyler Rose
A most humble thank you to the both of you.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:18 - ID#26793)
Argentine gold sale; details and comment

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:22 - ID#31868)
gold sales
If you look at the numbers at LBMA the gold sold by banks means nothing. The media obviously has never done an in depth story on the amount of gold moving through the LBMA.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:23 - ID#426220)
INGER LETTER FORECAST - December 2, 1997
Gene Inger Predictions:

Dow over 8,000; highs no doubt for S&P coming;
................................................while facts haven't changed.

What about a drop into mid-December? Well, my opinion is that's still coming, but as it will be a bullish pause for the moment, barring news of shock capability. Complete Market Forecast at:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:26 - ID#35767)
The CB physical sales are dwarfed by derivitives and thus focus on CB sales is cover for the derivitive raids. CBs are irrelevant if you look at the volume of what is really dictating price. All out effort to prevent tsunami from hitting US. US economy really in bad shape the News will never reveal as confidence must be maintained at all times to keep capital flowing into the ever hungry treasury mkt and stk mkt. Without this flow the game could not be sustained. PREDICTION US EMPLOYMENT on Friday will show strong growth with low inflation. They are just making the bubble bigger because the bubble has become to big to fail. Now the whole world is rushing to the US bubble.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:27 - ID#210114)
Bundesbank and Gold Loans
Am confused and would like some clarification. Yahoo article on Argentinian gold sale suggested that the Bundesbank had STARTED to lend Gold. Bill Buckler stated on his gold pages that the Bundesbank had admitted to loaning gold FOR YEARS.

What is the truth? Have they just started or have they been at it for a long time??

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:31 - ID#401349)
News Server
Yes, the story is for real. In addition, Ron Brown
and Vince Foster are buried in the Rose Garden so
Clinton can keep an eye on them!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:35 - ID#93232)
Day 18 ( business days ) on my last order...Hoosier is at Day 24 on his last order. I visited with Marie @ usagold, Denver, she had to hunt through "three piles" of orders to find my last order. Was assured it is on its way...sure hope so. Mike Kosares was on the phone giving an interview to New York radio show "Money Matters"...he reports bullion coin orders are heaviest in a long while. GO GOLDBUGS!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:37 - ID#26793)
Russia wants IMF to resume assistance

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:39 - ID#426220)
ALL: So much has been this evening, BUT in my considered opinion, NO ONE HAS MENTIONED WHY THEY WERE FORCED TO DUMP THEIR PRECIOUS GOLD!

For years the Argentine Government under the baton of President Menem has staunchly and fanatically tied the Peso value to a ONE TO ONE RATIO WITH THE US DOLLAR. Circumstances during the last 12 months in South America, and most recently in Asia have made the 1 to 1 parity a Herculan Task to maintain. THEREFORE, THE GAUCHOS were forced to sell-off their gold hoard of bullion - and ancient gold coins, a legacy of their culture - to support the ONE TO ONE RATIO with the US Buck! In effect they sold their "wives jewels" to protect their "families honor!"


(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:40 - ID#35767)
This talk is SPIN. The Ques is why the intensity now. Do not try to analyze the comments understand they are being made in concert NOW to affect price. The ques that should be asked is WHY NOW and not trying to discern a reasoning. The reasoning is clear they want to keep the tsunami of created money from seeping into the metals because of what it would symbolize.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:44 - ID#295111)
Lehman Brothers
Analyst Peter Ward of Lehman Brothers said today, ``We do not believe gold mining equities have fully discounted the drastic decline in gold price which has already taken place. In addition, we believe there is a real possibility gold could decline even lower.''

I take this comment as a contrarian indicator. Ward should have given this advice right after the BreX fiasco in order to save investors money. It looks like he's got friends who need to cover their short position in gold/gold stocks.

Time is near folks, gold is near its bottom.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:44 - ID#26793)
More on Argentina; go to market comment

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:50 - ID#364147)
Gold Futures Drop to Low
On Argentina Announcement


Gold futures Wednesday fell to their lowest price since 1985 after
Argentina announced it sold its entire stockpile of non-minted gold,
reinforcing fears the days of the metal's use as a government investment
tool are numbered.

Gold fell after Argentina's Central Bank announced late Tuesday that it
had sold nearly four million ounces of gold -- all the country's non-minted
reserves -- in the first half of the year to invest in U.S. Treasury bonds,
which offered a higher rate of return. Argentina's government also said it
planned to sell the bulk of its gold coins that were minted prior to 1892.

The announcement came just as gold futures appeared to be stabilizing
from a 20% plunge in prices this year on fears that European central banks
would sell their holdings within months of the formation next year of a
common European Union central bank.

Central banks hold about one-third the world's gold supply and
increasingly are frowning upon large stockpiles of the precious metal
because of its low return rate and declining value.

Currency problems in many Asian countries also have contributed to the
fall. Many countries that routinely have stepped in to buy precious metals
at a bargain now see little incentive, and have less cash, to do so. Some
investors in gold futures now fear that other countries will seek to quietly
dump their holdings to obtain the highest price they can get, said
PaineWebber analyst Bernard Savaiko.

Gold for February delivery fell $1.40 to $294.50 an ounce on the New
York Mercantile Exchange, the lowest since March 14, 1985. March
silver fell 2.5 cents to $5.323 an ounce.

In other commodity markets:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:56 - ID#93232)
Is it coincidence or merely irrelevant?

Premise one: U.S. Treasury official advises world financial leaders to sell their gold now at London conference last week. Don't wait...the smart bankers will do it first. Is this a seller talking? Duh.

Premise two: Our friend, Argentina decides to unload their gold in favor of U.S. debt. Surely the Treasury didn't accept gold for paper.

Premise three: We will soon have gold dollars in our pockets. Albeit, gold plated...kinda' cheap but good symbolism.

Greenspan and company may be better than I thought.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:57 - ID#284255)
ISP working again?
IMF Sets Record Bailout Package for S. Korea
But it is expected to call for Seoul to put the brakes on economic growth, liquidate or restructure troubled banks at the heart of the crisis, further open up the financial markets, cut public spending and possibly raise taxes.
"But these pains and burdens are the cost our economy has inevitably to pay to revive and to recover our lowered credibility in the world financial society," he said.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 19:58 - ID#255190)
Deep Storage Retrieval

It seems to me that the suppliers are depleted on stock and are accessing deep storage through the largest bullion/coin companies. These may require secured trips to vaults, etc. Surely the paperwork burden has also caught them off guard. Understaffed.

All of this when 'gold is nothing'. Wait until the price begins to rise significantly. Asia is paying 'premiums' on top of spot now. This shots the 'asia is selling gold' story in the foot big time.

Try Al Prescott @ Del Greco Coins 800-878-2443. He says 1 to 2 weeks delivery time. A pretty straight shooter.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:00 - ID#263278)
@ the beach
Cyclist, certainly agree with you on Lehman's timing. That's par for the course with brokerage firms, it seems. GVC, thanks for the XAU chart. If there is a break below 70, what would you see as its next stop?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:02 - ID#284255)
cheap! cheap! cheap!
Fed: U.S. Economy Grows, Asia Woes Curb Prices
WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Cheaper imports from distressed Asia helped keep a lid on U.S. price rises as the economy kept growing moderately during November, the Federal Reserve said Wednesday.
"On balance, Federal Reserve districts report a continued moderate pace of economic growth since the last report," the summary said. It said Asian economic turmoil and currency weakness was putting some drag on export growth and causing stiffer competition from imported goods.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:04 - ID#285233)
What is the limit up/down for gold????

Also, Since human beings are human beings, latest Russian gov. fugures confirm that during Stalinist purges 42,500,000 people were exterminated ( this includes 8-11million Ukrainians. This is based on actual unclassified files made public since 1990. This is fairly close to the low 50's # rumored over the many years. Include the estimates for Red China, Cambodia, etc, and you will arrive at a number far exceeding the Ruskies and totaling over 100 million. I have always been totally amazed at the ignorance of westerners ( not taught in schools at all ) when it comes to the communist "collateral damage" numbers. My father was one of them. Maybe these people do not count.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:04 - ID#284255)
more to come
Gold Hits New 12-1/2-year Low
"Gold is still acting poorly, with the trade selling, and if silver loses its relative strength, I would guess gold will test the $285 level basis February in the next five to ten sessions,"
"There was little real surprise in the Argentine news, as the market has been waiting for another central bank to put up its hand and own up to a gold sale, and there is more to come,"

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:08 - ID#25588)
Short S&P
The Dec S&P could be setting up for a big drop. The top on 10/7 at 992.30
was a wave 3 high and we are now in a wave 4 correction. Wave A of 4 ended on 10/28 at 844.00. Wave B of 4 is in progress and turning out to be an abcde wedge. Wave a/B 11/5 at 955, wave b/B 11/13 at 902.5, wave c/B 11/21 at 971.00 ( c =.618 of a ) , wave d/B 11/25 at 945.00, wave e/B ( .618 of c ) projects to 987.30. Next is a Wave C down. The strong up seasonals may buffer any declines in the short run. If the market blasts though the highs at 992.30 we would be in a new comfirmed leg up. If the market closes under 965.00 would confirm we are in Wave C down. For the next two days short the SPZ at 987.00 with a stop above the highs.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:09 - ID#26793)
Dow/Glod Ratio
We are only 1.2 ounces away from the 100 year high of the ratio set in 1966. You recall this past summer we were hitting a new Dow high day after day after day. It has been nearly 4 months since the last one. I get the feeling we are almost ready to end this stock bull, not so sure about the gold bear but I ordered some British Sovereigns yesterday anyway.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:10 - ID#280222)
VRONSKY: re your 19:39...very astute! Was IMF pressure involved?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:12 - ID#280222)
NICK@C : Thank you!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:15 - ID#364147)
You have mail bro......

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:16 - ID#285233)
Donald_A How much are the British Sovereigns ( BU ) ???

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:23 - ID#26793)
Some of the news from Argentina is good.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:25 - ID#255151)
Ron Brown a Fallen Hero?

News Server-- I will be watching mainstream media to see if they run with this story. This story reminds me of that geologist at Bre-X. A lot of people fell for that one-- ( heh, heh )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:26 - ID#288352)
CB Sales
Argentina CB sales adds 1 country to the list of sellers
How many countries are there left that could sell large amounts ?
Has anyone in this forum lookes at the time table i.e. how long do the
CB's need to keep this game up and .... will they have enough country/CB's to play ?
Comments appreciated

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:28 - ID#26793)
I paid $84.00 The ones I bought in the past were uncirculated but I would not call them BU. I ordered kings this time.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:34 - ID#426220)
REF: "Savage ( !!!!!!!!!!! ) VRONSKY: re your 19:39...very astute! Was IMF pressure involved?"

The IMF IS OMNIPRESENT AND... OMNIPOTENT.... in fact I personally would NOT be surprised if the IMF bought the Argentine bullion and ancient legacy/HISTORY of the Argentine Republic. Is is not sad when a "family" must sell its history in order to survive economically?!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:34 - ID#93232)
Got liquidity problems? Losing money on your investments?

Son, I can get you into a deal that'll yield you 6.03% every year for the next thirty...Now I can't guarantee you that rate much longer... I think we're going to have to lower that rate next week. Who knows?

Now about paying for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...what you got there son?

Oh crap, Gold? How much of it ya' got? Well you know that stuff's fallin' like a rock. But, let me check with the manager.

Son we've got a deal...but I gotta' book give me that crappy old gold.

And son, don't tell anybody about this special deal I made you. Pleasure doin' bidness with ya' boy.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:37 - ID#280222)
NICK@C: Yahoo says no such ticker symbols as LHG. Lihir query comes up LIHRY, but that cannot be it as price is not even close. Can you be of further help....URL?....also A$1.49 = ? American?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:38 - ID#284255)
Net chatter
said that his boys in the currency markets in NY were telling him that Greenie has made a deal with Japan. They will take the treasuries and give them cash but they have to buy them back in 1- 1/2 yrs. So it is all being done thro the back door. He said that this was not confirmed but the boys in NY are usually correct.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:39 - ID#26793)
Argentine sale, the Australian view.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:43 - ID#258129)
APH: Always wondered - how Fibonacci figures will look like in antic Roman notation

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:44 - ID#284255)
I think that is the right code. LIHRY. It is an ADR
LHG in OZ is currently AUS$1.49
Check Vengold's hompage, they have info there.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:47 - ID#69149)
Checking my charts....
In looking at my chart of the U.S. Dollar Index, it seemed to me fairly plain that the price rise has peaked inside a very overbought zone. The message my work sends me is that the dollar is "tired". The associated indicators etc. seem to confirm at least a near-term turn. The London Gold fixing chart appears to be faithfully mirroring the dollar. The CB activity seems to me to be merely reenforcing rather than causative according to the charts. Now all we need is for the dollar to fall of its own weight ( or its relative abundance-if you will ) which will start taking the "bloom" off of the Treasuries' "rose".
The chart action of the XAU was interesting as it indicated a definite divergence between the nominal new low and my trend indicators ( a few have swung positive over the last few sessions and were unaffected by today's drop ) -as well as being well into oversold territory over the last week or so. As a matter of fact, one oscillator flashed a "buy" today. Seems too neat to me though, but I can't ignore the confluence of readings. Am I seeing things or what?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:47 - ID#26793)
Depression clue? Brazilian car sales down 31% for November.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:52 - ID#284255)
Avid chat archives
Interesting observations on current events, political and financial can be read daily from this archive.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 20:57 - ID#284255)
Global liquidation sale
This news post has been a regular this last week.
Do we have a new trend establishing.
Foreigners net sellers of Japan stock via 11 firms

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:00 - ID#26793)
Is a trend starting?
After finding the Brazilian car sales dropoff, and recalling an earlier post about the layoff of 20,000 auto workers in Brazil, I did a Yahoo search using the search words "sales down". This is what came up for today: French champagne down 4%, Japan cars down 23%, Ford India down 3000 units, U.S. new homes down 1.7%, computer chips down, no figure provided.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:01 - ID#194311)
confused...ask the analysts...they are too.
Argentine gold sale catches market, price recovers

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:02 - ID#284255)
more credit where credit already went wrong - best US interests
Korea aid to help stabilize world economy-Summers
``The motivation for this program is the restoration of stability for the benefit of Korea and the global economy,''
``It's in our security interest because a prosperous, strong, integrated Asia is more likely to remain stable -- at peace -- than an Asia that is confronted with tremendous instability and factionalism,''
Summers said the aid package would also support U.S. commercial interests and financial markets.
``It's in our commercial interests because South Korea and Asia in general are major trading partners. A third of our exports go to Asia and they support millions of jobs,'' he said.
``It's in our economic and financial interest because markets are increasingly interlinked.''

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:06 - ID#26793)
China predicted to devalue currency

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:06 - ID#217338)
Spud Master 18:26
Well said.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:06 - ID#31868)
fiat graveyard?
Is there a currency cemetery? I mean a place where all the dead paper is listed in a historical timeline. Anybody know of such a place that may have the information?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:08 - ID#284255)
Who wants to bite the bullet?
S.Korea bank reforms key to IMF rescue-US analysts
Despite a record $55 billion IMF-led bailout package, experts said investor wariness persists because the government that negotiated the package will step down after presidential elections scheduled for December 18.
``There is still a fair amount of skepticism in the market about whether Korea will actually follow through with their parts of the bargain,''
The IMF is reported to have sought assurances from the leading presidential candidates that the winner would honor any agreement signed with the present government.
While the three main presidential candidates have all endorsed the IMF bailout with varying degress of enthusiasm, analysts remained wary of Korea's commitment.
The Koreans might balk at the IMF's painful prescription, and prefer more moderate exit strategy from the crisis that sapped its currency and financial assets. Also, Korea's powerful labor unions have vowed to block those reforms that would result in the loss of jobs.
``The dislocations from implementing these IMF policies is going to have an even harder impact on ( Korea ) than would similar policies in developed countries that have a safety net,''

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:12 - ID#426220)
Follow the Argentine Peso
tolerant1 ( fiat graveyard? ) : All we have to do is to Follow the Argentine Peso!! Al Cementerio vamos! Pobre sea el Gaucho!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:13 - ID#284255)
if all of us evaluated the consequences of what is taking place?
Global stock regulators worried by auditor merger
``In just a few years we have gone from accounting as an independent profession to the existence of three large multinationals, who also function as auditors.

``The process, in my opinion, has not been developed with sufficient reflection and before the final concentration shows its effects, it would be positive if all of us evaluated the consequences of what is taking place,''

Url for previous article:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:15 - ID#426220)
THE GOLD-EAGLE monthly spotlight for insightful market commentary and analysis BEAMS on John Kutyn for his autopsy of the Asian financial fiasco: Currency Chaos and Financial Collapse. To review this insightful prophetic treatise of Asian currency & stock market turmoil, and its inevitable consequences, go the following Internet location, and once there CLICK on John Kutyns plaque:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:16 - ID#222167)
Blutarsky: I just read your posting from earlier today. I lost the bet to you about the market crashing before the end of October. However, that has been settled per your instructions a day or two later -- early November. I am greatly distressed by your posting. I feel that you own me a public apology. If you have any further complaints, e-mail at, or write to me at: Steve Puetz, 2800 Wilshire Ave, West Lafayette, IN 47906. Otherwise, I consider this matter closed.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:25 - ID#26793)
@Tolerant1-Key dates in Asia crisis

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:28 - ID#26793)
@Tolerant1-Currency graveyard.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:36 - ID#217243)
my website
Well, I've talked about gold quite enough. Music is
much more interesting. So, since I haven't plugged my
website in quite a while, here goes: http:\\\~kulick
Nothing better than the internet!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:36 - ID#31868)

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:38 - ID#217243)
forward or backward
Always helps to be forward or backward.
For better results try:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:39 - ID#217243)
something about gold
Gold will have a knee jerk bear market rally. I suspect
the XAU will break support at 68. Deflation has just started.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:39 - ID#426220)
Tolerant1 & Donald: Graveyard for Money ---
Glyn Davies Professor Emeritus of Economics University of Wales
"Sovereignty and Money: Past, Present and Future" see:

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:44 - ID#217243)
Try for Three
Well, try one more time and then decide that links aren't working
all the time at Kitco. Enjoy!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:45 - ID#225283)

Not much has changed from the days of the "Big Eight" other than none of the firms count on the auditing operations as a key profit center for the firms these days.The big money is in consultancy not accountancy....the big boys no longer want the potential liability that goes with the iternational audit of a large multinational operation. What you will see is billable hours going thru the roof. Let us not forget that the vast majority of employees bail out from the big firms and start their own practice after they get tired of being over worked and under paid.... or once they leave the fast track to partner , or burn out on the 100 hour week that goes with being partner. Did you see the report on the Japanese bean counter that died of exhaution and over work and putting in something like two weeks straight a one of the failed institutions last week. Thanks but no thanks. I do not think the consolidation within the business will be a bad thing for stoclholders or the public at large....the audit bill will certainly be larger though.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:45 - ID#30116)
John Disney__A
John Disney__A -- Free speech is O.K. in the US. of A. as long as you don't ask a question that someone can read whatever they want to in it. Then you're labeled a bigot or racist or whatever, because you are not supposed to ask such questions.

John, I think I know where you're going with this question. The answer is; History will repeat and it can happen here. Isn't it fascinating how gold is a commodity, but the governments of the world watch it carefully ( like it was money ) ? Do they watch Nat Gas as carefully?

Germany went through a hyper-inflation during the twenties. Anyone who was fortunate enough to 'hedge' against that calamity was probably perceived as being in some kind of cabal, or worse, being the creators of the calamity so they could profit from it. Remember rule one of the War handbook! Dehumanize the enemy and then demonize him! It's worked for over five thousand years. Why mess with such a successful formula? BTW, do you know how many people died as a result of WWII? Best estimates are around 100 million. Most of those killed were non-combatants.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:46 - ID#31868)
Thanks for the link. It seems odd to me that nobody has put a chart together that shows the death of all the figment standard paper that has existed.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:50 - ID#217243)
Why up? Will the Dow rally more? Why do the Wall Street Week
gurus indicate an elf +5. I see alot of bears. The specialists
are neutral. Oil production is up, price down. The economic pace in the US is headed south. No inflation. AG can't handle deflation?
Nothings changed? Bull market on track. Dow 10K+.
Gold goes to $200/oz. No major bull in gold until 2003.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:52 - ID#245319)
Tantalus Rex: re ABX

First time visiter. Noted your comment on ABX article. I got in to that play ( Arequipa ) at $1and hung on until Barrick took it over for $30 Cdn. Their next winner is in Venezuela. They are bankrolling an unknown exploration co. called Chesbar Resources ( CBI:MTL ) . All permits are in place and much due diligence and perseverence has been suffered through for the last three years. The first drill holes were outstanding and drilling has just resumed as per news release today.
This property is very similar to Pierina in Peru, only I think it will be better. Perhaps I have already overstayed my initial visit. If you take the time to follow up, I think you will be very happy in about three months, after about 100 holes have been drilled. Word has it that Barrick is very positive about this one.

P.S. It won't matter what the price of gold is when the assay results are proved up.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:57 - ID#225283)
germany in the twenties

I have a neighbor that lives near my home in Washington state that had the luck of living in Germany during that period of time. he is currently well into his eigties and has a mind and memory better than most thirty year olds....anyway,,,,He tells stories of how his mother used to rush down to his fathers place of employment every payday before noon because the payroll checks were handed out at noon and his father would give her the check and she would rush to cash it and buy food because by the end of the day the same amount of mnney would buy far less. the workers that did not have a family member to provide this service had far less buying power for the same exact wages.

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Dec 03 1997 21:59 - ID#295111)
Winston: Thx for the comment...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:01 - ID#26793)
India commodity traders strike against 5% tax. Government relents.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:04 - ID#57232)
China Devaluation likely - slowly?
Donald: Saw your 21:06 post on China devaluation. If they do it as claimed, they will bring the Chinese yuan down in steps -- "in the interest of stability" It is very likely that they might do it this way, after seeing what happened to other SE Asian currencies that went into free fall. Isn't it interesting that Hong Kong got hit hard by the hedge funds, but not communist mainland China. I think the $300 billion or so in uncollectable SOEs debt is a more serious matter still to be addressed.

There is an advantage of a totalitarian system -- and that is long term plans can be made -- if the leaders know what they are doing.

However, I still believe in what Churchill said about democracies:

"Democracy is a terrible form of government, but the alternatives are worse" This is a close facsimile, if not an exact quote.

Donald: Any more news about Russia? That I think is where the next major collapse will be. Here's another Churchillian quote ( exact ) about Russia, uttered on Oct 1, 1939:

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:11 - ID#26793)
Brokers claim Asian exposure not a problem

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:15 - ID#284255)
insurance for the masses - MF puts and calls - don't miss out on yours.
Listening to Nightly Business Watch today,
And they were recommending, a new derivative product.
Puts and calls on Mutual Funds.
To be widely taken up, by the fund managers, and the public.

Buy some puts, and sleep well at night,
And some calls, to enjoy this bull market.
Insurance for your previous positions,
Speculation, for the continuation, of the trend.

Now, if all MF investors, insured their portfolios,
And we were to have a crash, ( thank god I took out insurance )
And $4 trillion was to evaporate from the markets,
And insurance from these puts was leveraged to 4x.
Where would this $16 trillion come from?

Another case of badly managed derivatives.
Why do the "Powers Who Be" keep changing the goalposts.
Why do they keep warning us?
Of what we need insurance for. - puts, circuit breakers, etc.

The current explosion/implosion, of paper money,
Is accelerating, in a ever steepening, parabolic curve.
It's velocity surely must be coming to a topping formation soon.
The trend reversal shall be awesome to say the least.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:21 - ID#26793)
I think the point to remember about the current round of devaluations is that most seem to agree that the Chinese started this round in 1994. We are seeing the result now. If the whole exercise only results in placing China right back where they were in relation to their competitors what has been gained? Do they decide to start another round and another spiral down? If currency devaluations were the way to build a great country Juan Peron would have his picture on our dollar now instead of GW.

I posted the latest on Russia earlier. They still need more money from the IMF. That was all I could find.

I think the Churchill quote is: "Democracy is the worst possible form of government; except for all the others"

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:24 - ID#20137)
Sound familiar and other ramblings
In the mass on material I was reading today ( and I'm a poor reader even for a goose ) , I remember some comments on the soundness of the IMF. In one section some fellow mention that the IMF has never lost money in all the loans they have ever loaned out. He went on to say, if the have collection problems they just extend the loans out like in Africa. But the never take the loans off their books.

Hmmmmm, Isn't that what got the Japanese banks in trouble.


If we can find out who is buying, we can turn this game around. There probably, is not a single discovery that would yield us more useful information. Remember to catch the crooks, follow the money ( in this case the real money ) . Obviously, that is why the trail is so hidden and confusing. Who is buying all this bullion, and what are they giving in return? Sdr's, bonds, free tickets to the IMF????

There must be sometail that is left. I suspect that some sales are just moved between banks, I sell to you and you sell to me, it nets out and we get the negative press we need. In other times, I buy from you and you buy from me and we get the postitive press we need.

If a more honest ( but not much ) is going on, then I suspect that the CB's may be selling to the IMF or BIS. They may receive bonus SDR's for the sale.


If anyone thinks that the asians are taking kindly the a bunch of rounds eyes running around their area telling what to do and not do, they are sadly mistaken. A lot of pent up frustration is going to be let out soon, and the smug Americans and Europeans are going to be the recipents.
Who are the banks on the othersede of the trades with the down trodden Asian banks? Are they sleeping well? One of them has to underwater already, when will they have to let out the news?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:27 - ID#26793)
U.S. Treasury tells Russia how to solve financial problems

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:28 - ID#30116)
This one's for LGB
If you had the stones to buy the Dow in January of 1988....

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:34 - ID#26793)
Greenspan speach
Last night Greenspan used the word "transparency" several times when talking about Asian banks that were in trouble. He said they were hiding things that should be public so that investors could make better decisions.

Someone should ask him if his newfound zeal for "transparency" includes information about Fed gold loans so goldbugs can make better decisions.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:37 - ID#30116)
XAU daily with volume

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:40 - ID#57232)
RE: Stabilitiy of countries with no gold reserves -- for SDRer, all.
All: I think we should make a list of countries with no gold reserves. These countries are most at risk for a coming financial crisis, as the "gold cushion" that is the centerpiece of a stable currency is not there. Please see: Univ of Warwick Economic symposium, "Exchange rate targets and currency bands", Ed P Krugman and M Miller, 1990, sponsored by CEPR and NBER. Buried in that book is information regarding how much gold each country should have, based on their economic size. Unfortunately I have not been able to identify how much gold is needed per unit of GDP or similar parameter, but just the mathematical formulas.

There is one interesting section in a chapter addressing speculative attacks on a country without gold reserves:

1 ) the use of bond arbitrage, using interest-bearing bonds in a variety of currencies. Another comment,

2 ) relates to a period between 1893 and 1896 in the US when there was a widespread fear that the US Treasury would run out of gold reserves, and that the US would have to abandon the gold standard. The financial markets were very unstable, and peaked in the panic of 1893. During this period the US government made a swap of gold for domestic bonds several times, and "subsidized" speculators ( the Belmont-Morgan syndicate ) to stabilize the currency. This last part predates the plunge protection team by over 100 years!

SDRer- Do you understand this? -- does this help your research about the future of the US dollar or the SDR? I will be glad to look more stuff up in this symposium book if you tell me what to look for.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:44 - ID#26793)
Speach, = Speech
I have seen it spelled so many times here the wrong way that I am starting to do it myself.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:45 - ID#30116)
$290 and below?
Is gold going to break $290/oz. tonight?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:47 - ID#30116)
We can't have transparency in the gold market. We need to break the last hold outs for gold. It must be totally discredited, that is, if it isn't already.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:48 - ID#344308)

another perspective IF comex runs-out of deliverable gold...

they would become a buyer....pdq!

what would happen to the market if ANY major trading co or exchange announced it was "BUYING" gold? did'nt this same scenario play
out in the 'past'? did'nt a cb announce ( years ago ) that it was a
net buyer of gold and in effect turned the market around?
history----may the circle remain un-broken--

--listen to your eyes, they speak the truth------!; )

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:55 - ID#57232)
Gold still a bear but markets relatively stable!
Donald: Thanks for your comments, and correction of the Churchill quote. I could not find it in my Barlett's ( 1951ed ) . I did not know about the Chinese devaluation in 1994, but your comments make sense. Did they have the same economic leaders at that time? If so, they much use the same approach again -- to get the edge on the rest of Asia.

I find it very hard to scroll back through the days posts, given the current slowness of the server - at least for me -- , and the "full" from fragmented into 6 sections. If you didn't see my posts, I am convinced Russia is next. The SE Asian countries had booming economies, but all Russia had was a booming stock market.

All: The markets are relatively stable, and gold is very weak or dropping. This cannot be due to the action of the "plunge protection team". Why? Trouble with the dollar? Other currencies? More Central banks in trouble?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:55 - ID#287277)
A. Goose--Who to believe?
The conflicting news stories are the news ( if one can figure it
out... ) These are all from FT-Monday ( which the US Postal service, in
its wisdom, delivers on Wednesday )

( 1 ) Venezulean Economy-IMF agreement unlikely
The government ( Venezula ) rejected the IMF's proposal to INCREASE
( 2 ) Long, thoughtful article, with Big,Bold Headline: CHINA RULES OUT
They state, quite catagorically, they will NOT devalue; there is strong
demand for the yuan and in the view of MANY economists, ..the currency
has been UNDERVALUED...
( 3 ) In Letterl to the Editor ( in FT some of the best info is here )
there is a letter from the chief economist, Agustin Villar of the
Central Bank of Argentina, addressing an article in the FT ( which,generally, complimented the Argentine CB ) and STRESSING
that "the confidence in the financial system is now such that, while the current Asian crisis has affected Argentine stock and bond markets, bank
deposits and international reserves have been very stable indeed."

It seems VERY valuable that we now "POOL" news reports, critique, and
then decide. A new kind of "liars dice" only for real money...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 22:55 - ID#20137)
This could be BIG!
Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 21:06
Donald__A ( China predicted to devalue currency ) ID#26793:

Donald good catch. China is a 800 pound gorilla.

"China had $132.9 billion in foreign exchange reserves at the end of August -- more than any other nation except Japan."

They are the low end market competitor that eats everyone for lunch. They are not going to give that up. If they devalue their currency, all of asia will have to react ... and blood will really be in the streets of the other low cost asian producers. They don't really have a free market, they can throw speculators in jail if they want, they can limit access to their currency market, they do have a dependent U.S. begging for ever cheaper products.

The chinese are awesome businessmen. They are not going to throw their hard earned reserves away on a wild devaluation, they will have a solid plan. They will get a store of value, store their earnings in that value and then lower the yaun to whatever level necessary to rule the roost of asia. Of course, I suspect they will store their vlaue in gold, which the round eyes will sell them like beads to the inidans.

If China devalues the game is up.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:01 - ID#30116)
At the current rate of decline, we should have $100/oz. gold by the turn of the century.

With that said, ....................Good night all.....

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:04 - ID#57232)
Derivatives for the Masses!
sharefin: Love your post about derivatives on mutual funds! Up and down. Now it is no longer important that the market goes up, because you can make money either way!

Who is going to explain to the masses diminishing value, timing, in the money, out of the money, etc?

I can't wait till brokers offer portfolio insurance for the masses. I wonder how much it will cost, and if any insurance companies will underwrite this! If I knew that a major insurance company was doing this, I think the best money maker would be puts on the insurance company!

Just wait till the banks get into this business too! By that time, I think I will be looking for my mountain retreat!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:09 - ID#344308)

27 days or less....beware--- the bear cometh to quench
his thirst for ink. his 7 year hiatus has caused the 7
itch to develop around his bi-scroscumules which in turn
has created pattern baldness. this is very bad for the
paper-tiger. her ink will flow in the streets of the world
and the tributaries will be as the sewers, polluted.
the bear has en-gendered himself with the winds of war-------el nino----
and they are as one. with their standard held high,
don't mess with mother nature!! physics rule and the
equal and opposite reaction will knock the socks off of
99.9% of the worlds population!

cherokee!; -------looking-to-the-skies-for-a-signal----

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:11 - ID#20137)
How could this be ???? I thought the IMF had everything fixed in asia.
Wednesday December 3, 10:37 pm Eastern Time

Tokyo stocks lower by midday on worries over banks

The losses were triggered by news on Wednesday that Moody's Investors Service had placed its ratings for three regional Japanese banks -- Ashikaga
Bank Ltd ( 8335.T ) , Hokuriku Bank Ltd ( 8357.T ) and Kiyo Bank Ltd ( 8370.T ) -- under review for a possible downgrade, traders said.

The market was weighed down by economic worries following the release of Japan GDP data, whioch showed a rise of 0.8 percent from the previous
quarter or an annualised 3.1 percent.

``The GDP data released yesterday was much worse than expected, and the slight recovery failed to diminish our worries over the economy,'' said
Hiroyuki Nakai, chief investment strategist at Nikko Securities Co Ltd.

By sector, losers were led by real estate, shipbuilding, brokerages, insurers, and banks.

Among bank shares, Yasuda Trust & Banking Co Ltd ( 8404.T ) fell 17 yen to 113 yen. It was the second most heavily traded issue with 7.946 million
shares traded.


(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:13 - ID#225283)

Have you run across any news lately about Russia slicing off three zeros from the ruble in January?

The move had been in the works for some time now but I have not heard anything in the world press lately.

on the same stage...I know that the Russians were hanging their hat on large Eurobond auctions this Autumn....

any news on how they faired or was that part of what all the Institutions were running away from and the reason the russians sent a delagation to DC with hat in hand?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:16 - ID#287277)
JTF...Nice Work
If you will accept "understand" as being a relative and moveable
What is fascinating is "rhythm" of these panics, and what I sense
as "ominous" is that our present situation seems, at the center,
to be a mirror image...that is, several things are mirror opposites,
but moving toward a panic resolution nonetheless.
As you can see my friend, I am still struggling to untangle threads

University of Warwick--Exchange Rate Targets and Currency Bands: is
this the title of the book? The publisher the University Press?
I would really like to have a go at that.

Something else that would stand us in good stead, I believe, would
be data from, about, UK, 1922-1939.

The parallel there the switch from key currency holder to new key currency holder. There WILL be a new key currency. SDR? YUAN?
Let's find out!

PS--Have you started on the new indicator yet?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:17 - ID#287277)
JTF...Nice Work
If you will accept "understand" as being a relative and moveable
What is fascinating is "rhythm" of these panics, and what I sense
as "ominous" is that our present situation seems, at the center,
to be a mirror image...that is, several things are mirror opposites,
but moving toward a panic resolution nonetheless.
As you can see my friend, I am still struggling to untangle threads

University of Warwick--Exchange Rate Targets and Currency Bands: is
this the title of the book? The publisher the University Press?
I would really like to have a go at that.

Something else that would stand us in good stead, I believe, would
be data from, about, UK, 1922-1939.

The parallel there the switch from key currency holder to new key currency holder. There WILL be a new key currency. SDR? YUAN?
Let's find out!

PS--Have you started on the new indicator yet?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:18 - ID#372344)
@ Currencies Graveyards

Here is a list of CB's Gold holdings, updated to reflect Aussie 176 t sale
published by Barron. They quote their sources as CPM Group and IMF.
A quick overview of US holdings will reveal THEIR plan to at least
cover parts the US$ with a Golden Armour at a very high cost to protect it and thus postone the trip this time to the CURRENCY GRAVEYARD.

Millions-Troy oz.

US 261.7

Canada 3.1

Australia 2.6

Japan 24.2

Austria 10.1

Belgium 15.8

Denmark 1.7

France 81.9

Germany 95.2

Greece 3.5

Italy 66.7

Netherlands 27.1

Norway 1.2

Portugal 14

Spain 15.6

Sweeden 4.8

Switzerland 83.3

UK 18.4

China and Russia is anybody's guess my guess 60
Also remeber some countries actually have gold in the ground.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:18 - ID#344308)

not only are you an absolute idiot, ( they GAVE us the beads )

you need remedial 1'st grade spelling tam bien!

danged round headed dummy-----!;/

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:20 - ID#284255)
Banks in up to their eyeballs.
I think the banks are already in.
I would like to see their books opened,
And their true positions revealed.
I doubt that we have seen 5% of losses declared as yet.
I'm still waiting for the major European houses to declare,
What made them sack whole divisions last week.
When Barings went under only a couple of heads rolled.
Half a dozen divisions could add up to expotential losses.
Did you see the latest downgradings?
Tip of the iceberg, I think.

Private Investor
I think the drawing together of these great houses,
Creates an umbrella, under which, they can do as they please.
"Big Brother Omnipotency."
They, above all else, need to come down.
I look not to what they grew from.
But more to what they are becoming.
Omnipotent and not answerable to.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:22 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Niagara Falls Gold Chart
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Well defined channel formation in progress.
Odds favor breaking out to Downside .
However, It would be time to scale into a
position if it were to breakout to the Upside.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:23 - ID#20137)
How about puts on puts on the puts for the put ...
JTF and Sharefin:

It seems that they game is don't have the public worry about withdrawing money from the market. The beauty ( if not insanity ) of this new option is that it may allow the market to not only hold onto john q. citizen's stock money, but also get him to give them more of it.

Yes, its another ploy. About as dumb as dumb can be, which makes me believe that they are terrified that the game is up. They are pulling out all the stops, they are making all the deals, but are they making headway? I think not.

When you lie successfully to everyone long enough, you also become a victim to your treachery. You start believing your own pr. That happened to Romainia ( sp ) and I believe it is happening here and now to our economic leaders. It only looks silly ( insane ) to us, because we have held ourselves to a higher standard - logic, honesty, ... responsibility.

Zillions will be wasted and destroyed.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:28 - ID#20137)
Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 23:18
cherokee__A ( @-----swatting-flies------and-flaying-hides------------ ) ID#344308:

Well, I wish I could argue about my spelling and my quote, but I can't. Hope the point got across to some. Not all of us can be as learned as yourself. Guess I best go and get some rest, remember I never pretended to be anything but a goose.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:30 - ID#287277)
JTF--I'd really like to have you read the following
I went back and re-read your message, and think I now more fully
understand what you were suggesting; you have the book from the
symposium, right? OK, that'll be very helpful. If you can download
this report ( too long to read online, and it deserves your
attention; maybe you can save to disk and print out?

I know it's getting late for you, but if you could get the
report tonight, we might start the questions tomorrow?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:30 - ID#280222)
deliverable gold
CHEROKEE: re your 22:48...or Comex could say, "So sorry, we seem to be out of that item. And, Oh yes, we filed for dissolution this morning... have a nice day! BxYtF

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:35 - ID#410387)
USA Mining
Well, we heard today that the Florida Canyon Mine in Nevada, owned by Pegasus will be closing in January. This looks like the first of many that will fail due the low gold price. Of coarse they are on the high end of cost per ounce but still the Nevada and US economy will feel some of the effects. Some people don't realize just how many other jobs, closures of mines will effect. I am speaking of the equipment dealers ( Catapiller, Komatsu and etc ) as well as the other support people and services. Where does this thing level off and what is there to really support the gold industry? We need to find another use for gold other than jewelry as well as proving to the economists that gold should back all currencies. If we could only see into the future!!!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:35 - ID#22956)
I can't believe there was NO comment from this post...............
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$SO I SHALL POST IT AGAIN$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Date: Wed Dec 03 1997 16:21

HepMeMoney_Hmm ( Tales From The Criptic ) ID#402251:

As ANOTHER has said here,not so long ago,

The market is cornered,but by who we don't know.

It's now pretty obvious,for those who doth follow,

For the smoke screen was up,and many did swallow.

In who's currency is GOLD now so cheap?

And from what country have we not heard a peep?

All countries are selling,but noone are buying?

How can this be,unless some they are lying?

So here lies the answer,and a tale to be told,

Of the exchange of paper,for old yeller GOLD,

Never again this mystery in the history of man,

Will so few own so much,thanks to Uncle Sam.

Short lived will it be,so the scriptures they say,

In the timeline of man,a year is a day.

The rich shall be poor,and the poor shall be rich,

Isreal's Streets Of Gold in time is a stitch.


THIS post seems quite significant..........JTF, anyone?!?? I, for one will take heed and decipher FULLY what the Hep has to say. I intend to benefit from it as I have benefited from HepRatCat before.

such a poet...The HepMeMoney_Hmmm Thanks. ponder this in great detail


(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:37 - ID#401460)
kiwi : Thanks for the post, I thought for sure that CNBC said Australia
CNBC reported:
Argentine Central Bank sold 4 million ozs. x 290 = $1,160,000,000.00
Must have needed some pocket change.
$1.12 Trillion that is a lot of money isnt it?
What is going on?
Of course, as always, they didnt say who the buyer was.

"Gold and platinum coins being found in the Salvation Army kettles again." Local News
Worth $ 3,000.00

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:39 - ID#287277)
Cherokee: The Grading Schedule...
If we are going to be graded on our spelling ( or typing accuracy ) ,
I, for one, am in deep trouble...

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:41 - ID#373403)
Kitco gold chart
Can anyone explain why this chart shows gold taking it's main loss during London trading and gains in New york?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:42 - ID#284255)
high road or the low road? which way to go? full steam ahead!
I too, am noticing the pendulum swings - like a see-saw.
Asia is esp. good at this. Europe too.
One side down, the other up, with volatility to spare.
As far as the oscillations are going,
They seem to have pulled in to a low point,
And I now forsee them expanding out again.
The strength of this next wave,
Should take your breath away.
Be it, up or down.

Still looking.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:44 - ID#224149)
EB-"How sweet it is"Still counting all that short Gold money when are friend Ted is looking for "Candles in the wind" Sorry Elton John that is.Happy Trails.P.S. Ted now is the time for a Wind Generator?

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:46 - ID#348286)
@Y2K - The vultures are circling - $1 Trillion
12/01/97- Updated 09:32 AM ET

Lawyers circle over 2000 time bomb

The Year 2000 computer bug is scary enough. It threatens to shut down or damage at least half the computers worldwide come Jan. 1, 2000. That could garble financial transactions, halt factory lines, disrupt hospitals and cause traffic accidents by turning off stoplights.

Now there's an even bigger concern increasingly gnawing at executives: the lawsuits that will follow.

Litigation resulting from Year 2000 meltdowns will be more costly than asbestos, breast implant and Superfund cleanup lawsuits combined, several reports say. Total litigation costs could exceed $1 trillion, according to research firms Giga Information Group, Gartner Group and others.

Litigation could include lawsuits for breach of contract, business interruption or personal injury. There will be shareholder lawsuits if the bug damages the bottom lines and stock prices of companies. A report by law firm LeBoeuf Lamb Green & McRae calls this "the cascade effect." If the Year 2000 problem is as pervasive as predicted, the cascade will turn into an avalanche.

"It will be two to three times as big as the problem itself - and it will last longer," says Terrence Tierney, analyst at J.P. Morgan Securities and co-author of a report called "The Year 2000 Problem: It's Worse Than We Thought." "Every lawyer in the world is lining up on this."

The Year 2000 bug is a small problem on a large scale. Software in many computers, especially older ones, uses only two figures to represent years. So 1997 is 97, and 2000 would be 00. But when computers see 00, they'll read it as 1900. Computers or computer chips that use dates in any way, even just for an internal clock, will either shut down or malfunction on Jan. 1, 2000 if they're not repaired.

Fixing the year 2000 problem is simple, but finding it is not. It's scattered through millions of lines of code in each of millions of computers. Programmers have to go over every line of code, then test every bit of software. That can take months or years. "It's just too big to fix in the time we have left," says Colin Brown, a programmer who has been fixing Year 2000 bugs inside banks and factories.

Gartner Group predicts half of all companies will have computer problems come Jan. 1, 2000. Even if a company's internal computers are OK, it might still have trouble doing business. Telecommunications networks could be disrupted, experts say. Regional phone companies have more than 70,000 programs vulnerable to the bug and they "cannot be repaired or replaced in the 26 months remaining," says software consultant John Zubeck. The federal government is likely to have trouble operating. A General Accounting Office report says many agencies are behind schedule in fixing Year 2000 problems. Those agencies include departments of Treasury and Defense.

No one really knows what will happen on Jan 1, 2000. Too many ever-changing factors are involved. "You can't really imagine the chain of events that will cause whatever outcome we're going to get to," says Jim Woodward, senior vice president of computer consulting firm Cap Gemini. Worst-case scenarios include power outages, ruined financial records, stock market freeze-ups and air travel problems. The best case still includes business interruptions and inconveniences ranging from closed ATMs to lost report cards in a school's computer.

Into that breach the lawyers will march.

So far, there is only one known Year 2000 bug lawsuit, filed by Produce Palace International of Warren, Mich., against two of its computer suppliers, Tec-America and All American Cash Register. Produce Palace is upset because the Year 2000 bug wasn't fixed in a computer and cash-register system it just bought.

Law firms are hiring computer specialists. They're swarming into conferences on Year 2000 litigation, which come at a clip of one major conference a month. The conferences are topped by one in San Francisco in November called Year 2000 Crisis Litigation Summit and one Feb. 9 in New York called Understanding, Preventing and Litigating Year 2000 Issues: What Every Lawyer Needs to Know Now.

Typical is the law firm Goldberg Kohn Bell Black Rosenbloom & Moritz in Chicago. There, partner Gerald Jenkins has long been, as he says, "the certified computer geek." Now he's helping the firm set up its Year 2000 business, which already is getting clients. Corporations call, wanting to erect legal protections against Year 2000 problems in their own computers - or damage caused if computers of suppliers or partners go down. "They're starting to send letters to each other, trying to protect themselves, jockeying for position," Jenkins says.

LeBoeuf Lamb Greene & MacRae has set up a separate subsidiary, LeBoeuf Computing Technologies, to handle Year 2000 business. Williams Mullen Christian & Dobbins, a Richmond, Va., and Washington, D.C., firm, has been sending its main Year 2000 lawyers all over the country to speak at conferences, hoping to raise the firm's profile in that area of law. Partner Daniel Hassett has posted on the Internet a number of papers about Year 2000 legal issues, including "Frequently Asked Questions About the Year 2000 Problem." First question: "Why are lawyers involved in this issue at this point?" Answer: "Minimizing potential liability, assessing legal rights and pursuing valid claims are legal issues."

At the same time, legal and industry groups are working to defuse the litigation time bomb. The Information Technology Association of America ( ITAA ) is sending out packets to help computer companies and users solve potential Year 2000 conflicts before they get to the lawsuit stage. "We're trying to cool down the rhetoric," says Marc Pearl, ITAA's legal counsel. "The question is whether this is a problem people want solved or a problem they want to make money off of." ITAA will urge people to keep their heads and negotiate. "You've got to avoid getting to the point of suing just to get a vendor's attention," Pearl adds.

Meanwhile, some lawyers say the litigation figures are overblown, although even that serves a purpose. The scary predictions might be prodding more companies to fix Year 2000 problems, heading off lawsuits. "Now that people are paying attention, a lot of the problems will be solved, but not all," says lawyer Jenkins. Still, he says: "Nobody knows what will really happen when litigation starts popping up."

And what if Year 2000 problems do serious damage, and the lawsuits start flying? The most severe figures are that for every dollar spent fixing Year 2000 bugs, there will be $10 in litigation costs. Estimates for the cost of fixing the bug range from $200 billion to $600 billion. That would put litigation costs at $2 trillion to $6 trillion, which seems farcical because the U.S. economy's total annual output is about $7 trillion.

Even $1 trillion sounds outrageous, but the figure has made its way into numerous reports and even into testimony by Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, who has introduced legislation that would make companies report their liability concerning Year 2000 problems. Bennett predicts it will be the litigation - not the original costs to fix Year 2000 bugs - that will bring on a recession.

And if the sky-is-falling crowd has it right and the Year 2000 bug has a disastrous effect on companies, litigious lawyers might have a surprise coming. "If attorneys think there's going to be anyone who can pay them," programmer Brown says, "they've got another think coming."

By Kevin Maney, USA TODAY

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:47 - ID#401460)
"Over four million ounces were sold at an average price of $370.72 per ounce during the first half of this year to stave off a
potential loss of $301 million as the gold price fell against the asset."

"U.S. Treasury bonds yielding five percent per annum were bought to replace the gold and earn an annual income of $81 million,
according to the central bank's statement."

Does this mean the US was the buyer?
Has anyone done the math to see what they really paid for the US Treasuries. Does this mean, at todays price, the US took a $80/OZ loss on the deal.

CNBC reported this like it was happening or about to happen right now - it took place 6 MONTHS ago!

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:47 - ID#225283)
imf gold

My folks in London tell me that the IMF is holding massive amounts of gold .

Could they be selling off in order to fund some of these huge obligations....and they are still coming up shy.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:52 - ID#339274)
..EB@23:35.Who knows in the world of Gold,Uncle Sam is exchanging
interest paying notes for pure Gold.To me it means currency monopoly
run by the Federal Reserve.To bad he is not around.

(Wed Dec 03 1997 23:59 - ID#255284)
I always say beauty is only sin deep (Saki)

perhaps you're right, my book of Quotations lists it is this form from Churchill

"It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.'

I have always liked his

"There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at with no effect."
( My dad said that's v true )

And some favourites from Sam Clements

"Put all thine eggs in one basket and watch that basket."

"Let us be thankful for the fools, without them the rest of us could not succeed."

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them how you please."

"A goldminer is a liar standing beside a hole in the ground."

And my favourite gastronomic quote from my favourite short story writer, Saki ( H H Munro ) - Posted on cos we are having oysters tonight - ;- )

"Oysters are more beautiful than any religion...there's nothing in Christianity or Buddhism that quite matches the sympathetic unselfishness of an oyster."

Happpy midnight