I do not think the sale was at 290.I heard that they had sold the gold much earlier and just now got aroung to the annoucement.

I agree with the earlier post ....what we are seeing here is that the various CB have made wash sales to each other over the past 12-24 months and they wait until they need the PR release of the information to suck down the gold price and then they send out the press release and sort of gloss over the fact that the sale was made light years ago but John Q. Trader is just getting the knowledge today way after the fact.

Kitco has a lot of good minds. I too would be very interested in the analysis of the Hep riddle. What do Uncle Sam, Nazi gold, UFO's in Isreal, and the falling price of gold have in common?

High Rise, These Press Releases...

I suspect that there is, somewhere...perhaps in DC, a war room that is
tasked with coordinating the gold bombing missions.

The releases of sales is too convenient ; if gold looks as if it might go up, there is another news release...

They have precious few tools with which to work, and a electronic Attila the Hun on the loose, so theyll use the media...and one is forced to admit, they have been darned successful thus far...

Aurator@Dinner?
Annoyed Oysters bring forth pearls...isn't nature wonderful?

I downloaded the Birnbaum report yesterday, but had not had a chance to read it -- will try to read it tomorrow between "crises" at work.

The book I was quoting from is titled: "Exchange Rate Targets and Currency Bands", eds P Krugman and M Miller, Cambridge Univ press, 1991.It is a compilation of economic papers presented at the University of Warwick during July 9-11, 1990. The conference was titled as per above title. The Center for Economic Policy Research and the National Bureau of Economic Research sponsored this conference.

Most of this book is mathematical, dealing with economic subjects dealing with how to go about maintaining a stable currency -- fixed, currency bands, floating ,etc,. There are historical tidbits scattered between the equations. Though math is easy for me as a Physicist, I am not accustomed to Economists methods of analysis.

What is interesting is that much of the book is focused on going back to a gold standard of sorts -- but not one that is rigidly fixed, like the ones that predate the computer. As far as I can tell, they are talking about a modern type of currency, with the exception of using gold bullion as an "anchor" to stabilize it. My guess is that the currency that would be allowed to fluctuate in a "band" - semi floating?. You may have seen some of my prior posts when I mentioned this book, and the fact there is a section that the describes the need to go on the "gold standard" in total secrecy.

It is also very clear that all countries would need to have some gold in their reserves for this to work optimally.

EBber: I know that you are a successful options player, so I hope you don't mind answering a question for me... ( how much loss do you tolerate before you unload a nonperforming option?...is it based on percentages, or time, or $$$........??? )

Hepcat: Enjoyed your poem that someone posted again for us. Are you suggesting that there is no gold left in Fort Knox?

All: I have always wondered how the US could get other countries to sell their gold, without doing the same. The German, French, and Swiss CB's do not wish to sell their gold, unlike a number of other central banks. But then -- they do not find themselves playing the role of the holder of the world's currency.

If the US still has its gold in Ft Knox, what arrangements might have been made with other world-class central banks to keep it that way?

Questions within questions.

From my other favorite poet, Conrad Aiken,

"What else, when chaos draws all forces inward
To shape a single leaf."

g'night

Bullseye....

The entire disinformation campaigne has been thought out...

Let us not forget that the boys out at Langely had their charter amended a few years back to concentrate more on economic threats and economic espionage....

who cares if the treasury was able to pick up that much gold for a promise to pay back future dollars plus interest...

I say right on Rubin and A.G. push the price of gold down to $200 and clear the vaults from every other CB that is stupid or hard up enough to sell the stuff off...

once they have run out of fools that are willing to be separated from their gold ...

the US Treasery will hyper inflate the dollar, and pay back all the fools that accepted bonds with greenbacks that are less valuable that toilet paper.

I wish that was the case.

JTF
Your comment:
"When you lie successfully to everyone long enough, you also become a victim to your treachery. You start believing your own pr."

Reminds me of what they are doing to gold.
The more they push it down to stop it becoming attractive,
The more attractive it becomes.

The lie they give, to create the illusion,
Backfires and creates the opposite to the illusion.

Al Gore........and Running-Mate Sen. ( Ca ) Fienstien ( sp? ) ....in '98.....oh god help us..............

away...to register republican....better-of-the-two-evils

throwinginthetowel

Well i guess thing have slowed down here...I'm off to check out earlier posts.

I hope you are joking?

A.GOOSE.. regarding your comments on Chinese devaluation. I would imagine that the Chinese would attempt to stage a gradual devaluation ( as someone has already suggested ) if they do it at all.

The rapid-fall devaluations of Thailand, Malaysia, etc, caught citizens off guard and I believe that gold ( having gone up in the local currency ) was sold only as a last resort to pay the bills. We are still in that stage.

However, in a slow devaluation, citizens of China would begin to notice what was happening and I think, would buy gold for individual protection. They certainly wouldn't be buying US Tbills. Therefore, I would expect a bottom in gold if the Chinese start an organized devaluation.

By the way, are you related to a friend of mine, M. Goose?

Did you catch the nightly news tonight about the Chinese developer that is literaly washing away an entire mountain in the hope of allowing the wind flow in to blow away the smog ?

According to local media Peter Munk has just bought the Sears Tower in Chicago

cherokee__A

I will endevor to run posts through the spell checker ( even though amazing as it seems the damn thing -msword- doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Maybe my bad spelling broke it. ) This spelling checking will not solve all my spelling problems nor my grammar, but hopefully it will minimize them. In trading with the Indians, trappers often carried beads, mirror glass, glass  nick knacks to exchange for animal pelts. Trappers didn't have much need for beads other than to trade. I don't understand why you believe the indians gave trappers beads, but that is ok with me. It makes you happy, then fine. Otherwise, I will accept the responsibility that I put out a poorly worded, phrased ... post that confused and frustrated you, and for that I am sorry.

I do apologize to the board for not taking more time with my posts.

It should not be a surprise that World Bank Prwesident James D. Wolfensohn is a big China booster. Afterall, Beijing is the bank's biggest customer. In the year ending June30, the bank lent China $2.8 billion , and it has provided the Chinese a total of $28 billion over the past 17 years to build dams and a host of other big ticket infrastructure prjects. CHINA IS ONE OF THE WORLDS WEALTHIEST BORROWERS.

Thanks SDer.

larryn__A
My understanding is that the citizens of China are buying gold.

China devalued once already ( I think 94 ) and the citizens learned their leason then. You may be correct in stating that they may phase the devaluations. The point is either way, once they start, the rest of asia will have to react.

No but M. Goose is a friend of mine.

Goodnight, I am asleep at the keyboard.

EB:................ck my 00:18........??

Rubin says China acutely aware of banking woes
``I was very impressed by their discussion of that problem. They have a very sophisticated understanding of the problem. The question is how they are going to unwind it,'' Rubin said after delivering a speech at Chile's Catholic University.
``There is a very big distinction between a country which knows it has a problem and has a strategy for trying to work its way through it, which ( the Chinese ) seem to have, and a country in which at least some people are reluctant to face the problems they have,'' he added.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/china_banking_rubin_1.html

Canada pledges $1 bln in loans for South Korea
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/korea_canada_1stld_1.html
``Canada has agreed with other G7 countries to participate in this international second line of defense in the event that it is required,'' Martin said in a news release. ``It is intended to demonstrate to markets that the international community is confident that South Korea will recover.''

Is Royal Oaks a good buy @ $1.64CDN? Or, will it likely go under, if gold continues to plummet?

For Savage -

Mining Journal lists Royal Oak with cost of 356$/oz - They lost

0.22$/share at higher gold prices - Dont believe I would rush to buy

this stock IMHO.It's 1997 high is shown at $3.59, so its only a little

less than half its 1997 high. I can list a string of South Africans

that are down more than this, and still making money. Woops - Not a

string - but a few.

Israeli strike enters second day as talks go on
JERUSALEM, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - A strike by 700,000 Israeli workers entered a second day on Thursday, closing down the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange and airport, banks and government offices despite all-night negotiations, their leader said.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/israel_strike_1.html

NYSE to reset circuit-breakers - Wall St. sources
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/markets_nyse_2.html
Trading would be stopped when the market fell 10 percent, the sources said, and a second halt would kick in when the average fell 20 percent.
The breakers were meant to act like a timeout in a sporting event, allowing the market to move, but smoothly.
Some market experts, however, said the circuit breakers had actually pent up selling demand, which was then unleashed with greater fury when trading reopened and may have led to worse losses both in U.S. markets and overseas.

S.Korea vulnerable despite IMF pact-Tokyo analysts
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/korea_japan_confiden_1.html
``With economic growth expected to be cut sharply next year, more collapses of chaebols are inevitable,''
``But the big problem is far from being solved. That is, how is the government going to clean up the huge amount of non-performing loans?''
``Some Japanese banks may be exposed to merchant banks, including those that were ordered to suspend business recently,''
``IMF loans can be used for foreign currency payments accompanied by transactions of goods and services, but not for currency market intervention. So they cannot completely offset dollar-buying pressure in the market,''

S.Korea loan is almost 2,000 pct of its IMF quota
WASHINGTON, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - A $21 billion International Monetary Fund loan for troubled South Korea represents almost 2,000 percent of the Asian country's quota with the fund, much more than the normal ratio of 300 or 400 percent.
Seoul's IMF quota IMF is 799.6 million SDRs, although South Korea, whose economy has grown rapidly in recent years, will be one of the beneficiaries of a 45 percent overall quota increase approved by the IMF board of governors in September.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/s_korea_loan_is_almo_1.html

Hows that for 'mover and shaker' magic. They create a huge bailout package with money from hell and satan sends the Korean Market smartly upward. HOW ABOUT THAT, eh.
Korean labor will not like the attached austerity package. They had bad labor riots before; just you wait.
Then those those gold transshipments of about 400 tonne annually; wonder if their US hack government got the word about the events that would transpire and those in power quietly bought the yellow?

WHY BOTHER...IT TAKES TO LONG ....TO GO BACK OVER EVER
SINGLE TYPO...THE TOPIC HAS CHANGED ...OR SOMEONE ELSE
WILL HAVE BEAT YOU TO THE PUNCH BY THE TIME YOU DO THE
SPELLING TRIP.

China has attracted $42 billion in foreign investment in
1996 qalon and had amassed $121 billion in currency
reserves-- not including Hong Kong's own $80billion
trove.

Hey down under...this Wolfensohn is a native of Australia
that used to work for a boutique investment banking outfit
on WallStreet I think he may have owned the firm does anyone know
for certain.? Who picked this guy to be President of the
World bank?

Who pulls his strings?

According to him China needs $600 billion to fix their
infrastructure and developement problems.

The central bank of China --The People's Bank of China
was lent $7.3 million dollars in 1993 to hire Price
-Waterhouse to teach them how to operate a central bank.

PW advised on how to strengthen its supervision and
accounting controls.

PW also helpedthe central bank move from a paper to an
automated reporting system, produced a bank examiners
handbook , set up a risk-monitoring system, and recruited
retired British and Spanish cental bankers to give
seminatrs to the Chinese.

With per capita income rising, by 1999, China will no
longer qualify for nearly free long-term loans designated
to aid the poorest borrowers.China's leaders are well
aware of this and are hoping to get as much free money as
they can before the spigot is turn off, or the rate goes
up.

Whoa, just a minute. LGB told us that Y2K is the most over-hyped subject in the news.

Although there is a lot of coverage on the Internet, I have seen miniscule coverage by the controlled news media. Has anyone seen a poll on how many people have even heard of this "event?" Maybe the Y2K article in USA Today was held back until the announcement of mutual fund options. Or was this just another one of those conspiratorial-looking coincidences?

In the year ending june30, the bank lent China $2.8 billion, and has provided the Chinese with a total of of $28 billion over the past 17 years for infrastructure.

It has attracted $42 billion in foreign investment in 1996 and amassed $121billion in currency reservs not including Hong Kongs own $80 billion bucks.

Deflation Part 1; Profitability declines toward more normal levels as investment matures and new output is brought onto the market.//Commodity prices decline//The farm economy goes into recession//Interest rates fall, and as they do, hot money moves into financial assets stimulating the stock market//as opportunities in the real economy subside, investment is concentrated on financial assets, leading to a stock market blowoff.// The boom is self-limiting because debt is concentrated at high interest rates compounds faster than income, eventually requiring that owners of leveraged assets liquefy their holdings, thus driving asset prices down.

Deflation part 2. "Real estate sag//Some trigger such a credit squeeze, a major bankruptcy, fraud, or simply the slowing of the real economy reveals overvaluation of assets//The stock market crashes, credit concentration intensifies, the money supply implodes and depression ensues, with returns on previous investment falling to subnormal rates// real interest rates skyrocket, even as nominal interest rates fall, further reducing economic activity//Unemployment skyrocket because real wage rates rise//Wages and prices are cut as the system winds down//Bingo, you have deflation for some time"

the above mention is the work of James Dale Davidson and Lord William Reese-Mogg.

Tokyo stocks extend losses in afternoon trade
TOKYO, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - Tokyo stocks extended their losses in Thursday afternoon trade as index-linked selling weighed down a market already weakened by sales of financial sector issues, brokers said.
At 0513 GMT, the Nikkei average was 295.30 points or 1.78 percent lower at 16,290.21. Its December futures were down 320 at 16,320.
``Feeble financial sector issues are quite noticeable, but the actual sentiment may even be much worse,''
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/tokyo_stocks_extend__1.html

the year 2000 problem is huge....I attended Gartners ITExpo this year and even some off the IT companies are way behind.

Have you been in Hospital of late. Everything is automated.

The bad part is most companies have gone with the lowest bidders or piece meal IT systems that do not talk to each other very well...they got what they paid for ...very minimum support and no guarenties when it comes to the year 2000 problem. If they haven't started to fix it by now it is most likely far to late to get started.The Y2K consultants are bboked up thru 2002.

I am surprised that the Japanese have been able to hold the market above critical levels ....are you?

I expected it to be at a critical stage by this friday.

It may not get there as soon as I had calculated.

Royal Oak Mines, if survives until its Kemess mine starts
operating at full capacity, could be potentially an interesting
investment.

Of course, right now it is not looking particularly good, but which
gold mining company looks good at this time?

You can check Roayl Oak discussion thread at Silicon Investor Web site.
Also, RYO has its own Web Site.

Robert Wilson said: "UNLESS THERE IS A FEAR IN A STOCK, IT PROBABLY
DOES NOT HAVE A GREAT CAPITAL GAINS POTENTIAL"

I think it applies to RYO 100%. If gold price recovers at least to $330
and they are successful with Kemess project ( in time, as planned ) ,
I can imagine that RYO stock appreciation will be very impressive.

If not, it could be a trouble.

I hold some stock, probably will buy more, but no sure. In any case,
you must decide by yourself, of course. But I have to admit that this
stock is for people with strong stomach only, it's a shocker sometimes.

what is the asian exposure to Placer Dome?

Private Investor
I don't think you will be disappointed.
As much as they support their markets,
The many are starting to capitulate.
They want out.

Japan to have another sell-off - more downgradings today.
What the sell-off of HK did for the dow, will pale beside the sell-off that
Japan will create.

The worse this gets the closer we are to a turning point.
The boys are ready:
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/markets_nyse_2.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yamaichi Securities Clients Withdraw 12.6 Tln Yen, Paper Says Yamaichi Securities Co. customers withdrew 12 trillion yen ( $97.8 billion ) worth of assets from October to the end of November, the Daily Yomiuri reported, citing figures released by the failed brokerage. The outstanding balance of customer assets decreased 52 percent to 11.39 trillion yen at the end of last month, compared with 23.96 trillion yen as of Sept. 30. Of the total amount of customer funds remaining in Yamaichi's hands as of Nov. 30, 5.70 trillion yen was in stock investment trust funds, 3.27 trillion yen in bond investment trust funds and 2.15 trillion yen in investment trusts, the report said.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/research_alert_lehn_1.html

"lehman analist" calls for sale of gold stocks ...does not see gold moving up for at least one year.

India waits for snap poll, or political miracle
India's political crisis, which led the centre-left government to collapse and weakened the rupee, has also raised questions on government spending plans awaiting approval by parliament.
But it remains to be seen whether a special session of parliament will be necessary to approve spending plans, which if not passed could precipitate economic problems and hamper expenditure under the 1997/98 ( April-March ) budget.
``The giant tragi-comedy that was being enacted in the political mega-theatre of New Delhi left Mr. K.R. Narayanan with no choice,'' it said. ``Costly as they are, elections are...better than a prolonged spell of expensive non-governance.''
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/india_picture_1.html

India waits for snap poll, or political miracle
India's political crisis, which led the centre-left government to collapse and weakened the rupee, has also raised questions on government spending plans awaiting approval by parliament.
But it remains to be seen whether a special session of parliament will be necessary to approve spending plans, which if not passed could precipitate economic problems and hamper expenditure under the 1997/98 ( April-March ) budget.
``The giant tragi-comedy that was being enacted in the political mega-theatre of New Delhi left Mr. K.R. Narayanan with no choice,'' it said. ``Costly as they are, elections are...better than a prolonged spell of expensive non-governance.''
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/india_picture_1.html

Prime Resources Group ( pru ) Toronto, ~Can $7.15, has large cash reserve; mines gold and silver.
Richmont Mines ( ric ) Toronto, ~Can $3.30, good cash reserve, has bullion assets, mines gold. Not many shares outstanding.
River Gold ( riv ) Toronto, ~Can $3.30, In production about two years mining gold and doing OK. Should start accumulating cash over time. Paid a dividend in its first year of production.
Viceroy Resource ( voy ) Toronto ~Can $2.30, good cash reserve, could surprise.

Prime and Richmont also listed on American Stock Exchange.

It will not hurt to look into ( do DD ) these companies. Prime, Richmont and Viceroy have web sites and River's news can be found fairly easily.

I seem to remember posting warnings regrding japanese banks several weeks ago... they are the big domino...when they fall all else will crumble...hardly anyone made a comment!

To All

Heard rumour that CocaCola plans to market coke

in SOLID GOLD cans.

You will be pleased to hear that cans are NOT

disposable but must be returned for deposit.

Frankly I dont believe this

Are you familiar with East Africe...something something company they are in the middle of doing a private placement @ .20 A$

I doubt it with the former CEO not even cold yet.

The soda would probably react with the Au

Not familiar with East Africe. Whats their story? Name seems to indicate that like will explore in Africa.

Tokyo stocks end down on financial sector jitters
TOKYO, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - Tokyo stocks finished the Thursday session lower, weighted down by jitters over the financial sector after a rating agency said that it might cut the ratings of some banks, brokers said.
Some added that market sentiment was also bruised by data on Wednesday showing that Japan's economic growth for the July-September quarter was slower than expected.
Late on Wednesday, Moody's Investors Service said it placed its ratings for three regional banks -- Ashikaga Bank Ltd ( 8335.T ) , Hokuriku Bank Ltd ( 8357.T ) and Kiyo Bank Ltd ( 8370.T ) -- under review.
``Feeble financial sector issues are quite noticeable, but the actual sentiment may even be much worse,'' a broker at a medium-sized brokerage said.
``The GDP data released yesterday was much worse than expected, and the slight recovery failed to diminish our worries over the economy,''
``Public funds may be used to help protect depositors in the event of a failure, but they are not likely to be used to nurse ailing banks back to health,'' said Masaaki Higashida, Nomura Securities strategist. ``This sort of speculation is not encouraging for investors and gains are limited.''
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/tokyo_stocks_end_dow_1.html

EB
You done been out EBwitching agin????

Gold chart 60 min
EB is that your target - the spike down to $253
http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/GD60min.gif

Gold chart daily
http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/GDdaily.gif

Lihir Gold chart
http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/LHG.gif

Japan should use public funds for depositors-IMF
TOKYO, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - Japan should use public funds to protect depositors and also needs to take decisive measures to restore both international and domestic confidence in its financial sector, a Ministry of Finance official quoted International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) Managing Director Michel Camdessus as telling Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto on Thursday.
Camdessus was also quoted as saying that all three candidates in the forthcoming South Korean presidential elections had pledged to carry out the economic adjustment programme agreed to by Seoul and the IMF on Wednesday.
``The candidates clearly promised to implement the programme if they are elected,'' Camdessus was quoted as saying.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is being told to do what, and why?
Kow-towing to the fiat paper masters?
I'm sure the Asians like being told, like school children, what to do - NOT!!!
The creators of fiat paper, not content with creating the problems,
Now tell them how to fix them.
How condescending can they get.

Private Investor
For some reason the article did not last long.

Yahoo - Document Expired
The requested document '/finance/971203/research_alert_lehn_1.html' is no longer available.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. You'd better believe it.

ADD to your statements the "it'll have little to no effect on us" crowd, and you've got some people who are becoming very weary of those attitudes.

With 60% of U.S. Western States' export markets in Asia?

We'll see.

( the 60% came from Wolman or Rogers. Don't recall which. )

I think I was wrong this a.m. regarding who wants to kick gold. It looks as though it is not just the English but the Hong Kong, Sydney, AND US markets that want to push it into the dirt. NObody likes gold right now. "give me some of that paper"! seems to be the consensus.

Gold is now BELOW 290.......oh dear!...end in sight?!? Next stop...284, eh D.A.?

away...to witness the freefall

ottomlesspit

savage-got your post and wrote something but it got erased so I must start over but now I am tired and will get some winky first. Are you holding some near worthless JOF7? ;- )

......zzzzzzzzz nite gold......zzzzzzzz

Gold 290-----gold 288---------gold 290---------gold???????

? H M

I smell a bottom ( whew!!! )

Sharefin soup---great Lihir chart ar 03:05. If I hadn't already bought a squillion, I'd buy a squillion more!!! A year from now I'll not only be laughing all the way to the bank, I'll OWN the bank.

From where do you get the quotes on gold?

Delphi

HaHa Fibo, ma man, as you know,...." replaced the cumbersome Roman numbers with the Hindu-Arabic place-valued decimal system and the use of Arabic numerals into Europe" and so assisted the rise of Europe ( You're Up to your.. ) commerce... Come, to think of it, i'd like to see it too......

I,I,II,III.V,VII,XIII,XXI,XXXIV,LV,LXXXIX,CXLIV,CCXXXIII,XXXLXXVII,DCX

something like that?


How about mayan counting, Now that's something else? uses dots and horizontal lines, is v similar to roman counting being based on 5. can't do it on a poota ( but hey, decimal counting sucks )

Fibo News for the Poms ( and those with cool satelite dishes )

NEWS!!
Watch BBC2 TV on December 28th around midday, for
the first Royal Institution Christmas Lecture all about
Fibonacci numbers and Phi!

Henry the VIII, VIII

first mistake!

aureraser

Nick@C
Are you going to buy out Vengold?
Or NDY or DGD.

Nikkei 5 day chart
Solid downtrend - is it bottoming here or continuing the trend?
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/je3tbc/stdata/tchap.gif

Nick@CBottomsmelling?
who said you can't learn from your pets?

sharefin
Burt says thanks- we is crunching now


SPUD MAn
You is a Jersey Bennie at my Chrismas dinna, your 18:26.sat easy on the other side of this gloria mundi.

Auric
feels good, huh? holding my precious, now get two or three and cup 'em the sound they make is as sweet as a spring bell promising a new dawn.

and an pox on those CBs who give us these fowl ersatz gold ( actually sh!t ) -coloured coins that sound like 'luminium when they hit the floor.

BTW what a strange coin the toonie, is, In a moment of cultural confusion ( explianed later as the turnstile wasn't working properly?? ) I was handed something that looked like a subway token, but was in fact real money,

whew.

Thought for the minute:

You can't get rich counting someone else's money



aurasilasmarner

ROR--go to top of page and click where it says "click here" -- assuming Bart's charts are up to date of course.

You could also try EBN -- go to commodities.

http://www.ebn.co.uk/Markets/

Auratious-- I am 'enery the 8th I am , 'enery the 8th, I am,I am...
How's BJ and the big sale goin', mate? Any of our smoke reached you yet??

Nick@C ( assuming you're still talkin to me ) Looks like an "investor" has swallowed the bait ( I mean siezed the opportunity ) almost, not quite, one has to be very patient in love and business no?

I have listened to people here saying buy land, I am selling, I am sure I will buy back for a penny in the pound, just like Horatio Bottomly.

auratightasthebarkonatree

arf arf

No smoke, but am going over to W Coast in W/end, can often see spectacular sunsets over the Tazzie and across the deserts of your Lucky Country.

please mate, I got to stop axing, where can I get quotes for the OZ options?


What's in that smoke, buddy? It's not the same stuff that makes all you ozzies think that ozzie rules is a game of footie is it? cos I'll blow it all bac if it is.

gotta go, am getting hoarse, I mean horse, I mean horsaurated

On the supply side of the gold equation, CBs have the overwhelming upper hand but:

Somewhere out there sits a producer who has sold all his production forward over the next couple of years but now has to contemplate mine closures. Who picks up the shortfall?

Can a forward committed producer continue to to produce at a loss? For how long?

CBs mobilising their gold reserves are effectively short, rely on the system to continue working, the rate of turnover of bullion etc. to allow them to believe they can eventually cover their positions.

There is some bad news for these guys: the industry they rely on to continue their games is in deep doo-doo.

Closures on a big scale are around the corner. If the deposit is deep, it dies ( watch out, RSA ) .

Junior and medium sized producers that still carry a sizeable debt service on their initial or recent plant capex will fold.

Exploration, the engine behind healthy supply, has already taken a massive knock globally.

If the system that supplies the commodity that everyone wants to short should shut down, how do the bears cover?

Aurator
I don't think you can get data on OZ options unless you go to a paid service. We aren't that advanced yet.
You are probably better off going to the US options market ( better liquidity ) unless you specifically are targeting an OZ company.

Antipodeans-- the "northerners", when they wake up,will probably read these posts and think, "what kind of kangaroo juice are those guys on??"
Well guys/gals, when you live with the constant threat of being burned out in a maelstrom, being devoured by crocks, the world's most poisonous snakes, the world's most poisonous spiders, jellyfish with 100 meter long stinging tentacles, and politicians who couldn't find their asses in the dark without a torch ( flashlight to youse guys ) , well, to complete the worst run-on sentence I've ever written, what's a mere 40% drop in the price of gold in the grand scheme of things????? Shirt-a-brick. We're rich beyond the dreams of all the kings and queens in the world 400 years ago. Tell a fifteenth centurion ( who lived an average of 32 years in squalor, pestilence and hygienic conditions that would make a head-nurse blush ) about your problems, and he/she would say "what problems??" Gold 290--BIG DEAL!!!!!

lobengula--good post, mate. How do the bears cover??? With paper gold, of course!!! Just as long as no one asks to see the real thing!!

For Nick

You got a good attitude mate - Thanks for sharing - I feel better.

For Jack

Appreciate you warning on RSA Mines.

Lets look at some numbers - end of 2nd quarter 1997.

Following USA/Canadian companies making profits

at price of 325$/oz list gives company and annual

ounces.

amax - 443

homestake 1800

Newmont - 2930

Barrick - 3000

Cambior - 540

Franco - 1900 ( ? )

Prime - 390

Teck - 350

Grand total N. America = 11.3 mill

Note following in loss - battle,coeur,getchell,agnico,

echo,kinross,meridian,pegasus,placer,royal oak,

TVX, Williams.

Following for RSA same quarter same price gold

Anglo group - 7800

gencor group 1355

GFSA Group 2700

Randgold 950

Grand total 12.8 mill oz in the Black

Note following in loss - avgold,deelkraal,joel,

Randfontein,Western Areas, Blyvoor,DDeep.

Following for Australia same basis

acacia 325

aurora 190

aus resource 188

delta 226

grand central 436

newcrest 473

normandy 1975

plutonic 510

resolute 292

WMC 830

Grand total 5.5 mill oz in the black

Note following in loss - goldfields, kidston,gwalia

Will have numbers for 3rd quarter shortly - if you

are interested Ill update for you.

I only listed the mines covered by the Mining Journal.

Believe ALL the mines will be in trouble - not just

the ones in RSA - Never start believing your own

propaganda ( I include myself in that statement )

Also check my numbers. I make a lot of mistakes.

James D. Wolfensohn became President of the World Bank Group in June 1995. In addition to his position at the Bank, he is Chairman of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton University and the Finance Committee of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. He is also a member of the Steering Committee of the Bilderberg Group, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Century Association in New York.

Previous to his presidency, Mr. Wolfensohn was an international investment banker. He has an enduring interest in the performing arts, and has served on many boards, most recently as Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Chairman of the Boards of Trustees of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and Carnegie Hall.

FT did an interview last week; I was appalled because his theme
was, "I wanna help poor people." I, for one, get very nervous
when a banker wants to be a social worker, or a minister.
Back to work...

Mr. Wolfensohn holds B.A. and law degrees from the University of Sydney and an MBA from Harvard University.

Thought mention of Bilderberg Group interesting...

Headlines of the future...

Although exit polls shows republican challenger X with a narrow lead, AL Gore has been declared the winner in yesterdays election. Attorney General Janet Reno responded to republican claims of widespread voter fraud with the following statement "After a careful review of last nights results, I can find no evidence of a crime". Al Gore called the claims of
voter fraud "the work of right wing extremists".

Have another look at Panda's gold chart. What has happened EVERY time the price of gold has gotten this far away from the 100 day moving average??? Whoooooeeeee!!Trader's paradise!!! Cheers from Nick the trader.

http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/Xgld.gif

Thanks Panda. Your commission is in the mail.

December 4, 1997
Edit Page Features
Inflation's Five Deadly
Myths

By DAVID RANSON

Inflation and deflation are topics obscured by clouds of misinformation,
and at no time has bad economics misled investors more profoundly than
during the present Asian financial crisis. It almost seems that since the crisis that erupted in Asia hit Wall Street, otherwise rational economists and fund managers have taken leave of their senses. Not that the fallacies now circulating are anything new. The myth that inflation is created by "too much" economic success has long affected the policies of the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. The worn belief that deflation is created by "too much" competition is equally unfounded. Yet these ideas have resurfaced with renewed force with the Asian crisis.

There are good signs, however. For example, analysts are at last beginning to recognize that deflation is a real possibility. unfortunately, they assign it to the wrong causes and attribute to it
the wrong implications. The popular analysis is riddled with many untruths. Here are five myths that are so pervasive that they merit singling out and debunking:

Myth 1: Falling equity prices in Asia are a classic symptom of coming deflation.

Couldn't be more wrong. Price levels are about to explode in those Asian countries where currencies have depreciated. Devaluations are always followed by inflation, and nearly always accompanied by equity market declines. Mexico's devaluation of December 1994 is a perfect example. The dollar values of Mexican equities fell by half from the day of devaluation through mid-1995. Wholesale-price inflation jumped to 36% in 1995 and 39% in 1996 from 7% in 1994. Only in 1997 has it slowed. Weak currencies and high inflation always go hand-in-hand. High inflation is usually accompanied by increasing interest rates and in due course by economic contraction--in a word, stagflation. Economic contractions cannot help but show up in advance in the form of lower equity prices. That's because equity prices discount the future. This is all quite elementary, and evidence of all of these negative results
has already begun to show up in Asia.

Myth 2: The Asian crisis has unleashed a wave of deflationary forces that are now at work around the globe.

This is completely backward. Everywhere that currency speculators "win" and currencies succumb, inflation is sure to break out, for the reasons stated above. The misguided attempt to maintain "competitiveness" through devaluation presages a recession, all right, but it will be an inflation-fueled one. It was the U.S. that began to experience a declining price level even before the crisis started in Asia, signaled as always by a fall in the dollar price of gold. The spread of disinflationary pressure has been from North America to countries
whose currencies are ( or were ) tied to the strong dollar.

In any case, a careful reading of history suggests that disinflation, far from a "contagion," is likely to be an economic benefit. The U.S. is prospering now as it deflates--a quite normal combination of
circumstances which has also been the intermittent historical experience of Germany, Japan and other countries with strong currencies. The global depression of the 1930s and Japan's situation today are exceptions to the rule, not examples of it.

Myth 3: Deflationary forces will shatter the complacently bullish view of U.S. corporate profitability and force a slowdown in the economy.

Complacency is not the issue. Western equity markets have been spooked more than they need to be. Deflation may hurt some political constituencies ( large debtors, for example ) , but investors are
wrongly fearful of it. Historically an environment of stable prices facilitates lower interest rates, falling prices even more so. Simple logic and historical evidence alike show that this leads to improved economic growth and profit performance. "Erosion" in pricing power is actually a benefit to the economy. When prices in general are held down by the strength of a currency, so are costs. The absence of inflation is good for business. Intensity of competition is good for everyone.
A U.S. slowdown is quite likely, but the cause is to be found elsewhere. The hawkish Fed continues to maintain unnecessarily high interest rates given the absence of inflation.

Myth 4: It was the strain of maintaining overvalued currencies that caused the Asian countries to devalue.

"Overvaluation" is in the mind of the overvaluer. Thailand and others devalued simply because they thought it would give their economies a boost. As I said above, they were mistaken. Those policy makers who thought they would be better off with increased discretion over
their domestic monetary policies are quickly discovering otherwise. In the aftermath of these devaluations they are surrendering policy control to the IMF and selling failed banks to foreign investors for a song. "Currency misalignments" and "overvaluations" are mischievous diagnoses which have led to devaluations in the past. They tempt
governments to create through currency depreciations the very inflation to which they point in justifying devaluations. "Overvaluation" arguments also serve to transfer blame for devaluation's disastrous consequences from policy makers to economic forces outside their control.

Myth 5: Asian companies will now flood the West with cheap exports.

There is a lot of bad economics in this one. First, in terms of depreciated local currencies, prices will be up--not down.
Nor are prices likely to be affected in terms of dollars. Intense world-wide competition imposes a common price level on goods sold by all nations. Asian exporters are "price-takers" in the immense international marketplace. If globalization means anything, it means
that international markets must not be analyzed as if they were fractioned.
Second, the total supply of goods from Asian countries will decline, not
increase, as recession engulfs them. Indeed, world supply of goods will
decline slightly, as will world demand.

Finally, it is precisely the ability of Asian countries to continue exporting to the West that will mitigate the severity of that recession. Exporting, to the extent that they're able to, will be good for the world economy.


Mr. Ranson is president of H. C.
Wainwright & Co. Economics, an
independent producer of international
investment research in Boston,
Massachusetts.







Copyright  1997 Dow Jones & Company,

"New York bullion dealers said the Argentina sale was actually conducted largely in 1996 by buying put options and selling calls through about four or five bullion banks, with delivery occurring this year. "

So much for Argentina sales causing the recent drop in price.

``It's sad because you obviously can't rely on the International Monetary Fund data on official holdings anymore and the bureaucrats in the central banks dont understand what they're doing to some countries like South Africa, which if gold prices fall much further might eventually need IMF help like some Asian countries,''




``The irony is that central bank gold is not always of extra fine deliverable quality, so refineries are bottlenecked trying to upgrade the gold into kilobars and other investment products,'' the bullion dealer said.

Honey, honey!

Wake up! Where did I put my .357?

Boom.

gold 289.10---Aussie $$$ .6710---gold same price as yesterday at 292 ( in Aussie $$ ) . Wonder how many won I could buy with an ounce of gold??? Might go to S. Korea and retire!!!

Thanks for your WSJ post at 7:00. That guy has got it all wrong. We had a credit based inflation. We will have a credit based deflation. That means things that were/are bought traditionally with credit will decline in price. Things like houses, furniture, cars, office buildings, factories etc. Things like food, toothpaste, fuel and clothing usually go up at least in percentage terms of all income after a devaluation.

By not making the distinction between traditional cash and credit purchases he destroys his argument.

The IMF's doubts on the euro
From Central Banking, Volume VIII Number 2, Autumn 1997

However, far more important than this is the potential effect on the financing of the US balance of payments deficit, forecast to total $205 billion in 1998. As the Fund states; "episodes in which even a hint of a sell-off of Treasury security holdings by foreign investors
have resulted in sharp increases in US long-term interest rates clearly show the benefit to the United States from widespread acceptance of
the dollar".

And what would/will the US do to assure 'widespread acceptance of the
dollar"?
http://www.centralbanking.co.uk/cbv8n22.html


Thus is one of the great themes of post-war financial diplomacy taken up again. When General de Gaulle in the 1960s spelled the end of the Bretton Woods system by his call for a return to gold it was explicitly aimed to end what he called the "exorbitant privilege" enjoyed by the United States in being able to finance its deficits with impunity by causing other countries to accumulate surplus dollars in their reserves. The end of the Bretton Woods system did not end that privilege, because the world had no alternative to the dollar. But the launch of the euro may after time provide such an alternative.

The United States with a less than almighty dollar would be a
different country."

http://tfc-charts.w2d.com/menu.phtml
Commodity Futures Chart Selection Menu

We could easily hit 28.61 on Dow/Gold ratio today or tomorrow.

Inflation+deflation=INSTABILITY

Donald_A: You have made a dent in my thick skull on this issue. I posted the article to provoke comments and help me perhaps understand what course various investments will take. The IMF bailout has increased the world's liquidity at the expense of tax payers and the European markets have taken off. U.S. retail is looking strong and our market will make a serious run at new highs ( S&P futures up nearly 5 now ) soon. I am having a hard time seeing the forest ( shaky credit expansion ) for the trees ( market gains ) .

This is my first post to the list so excuse me if I mess something up. Oris spoke of Royal Oak and their current high cash costs/oz. but referred to the potential upside with their planned Kemess project which they say they will bring into production at 250,000 ounces per year in April of '98. They project cash costs of US79$/oz. if copper credits are considered @$1.00/#. If they get it done, they would appear to have some real potential particularly if gold prices rebound.

Another situation that is interesting to me is Taseko Mines. I'm not sure I really understand the situation but they apparently have a gold-copper ore body in British Columbia with 9.4 million ounces gold and 3.5 billion pounds of copper. They have recently completed a pilot milling project to confirm recovery rates and indicate 90% copper recovery and 75%gold recovery rates. At .90/#Cu and $280/0z.Au I figure a total recoverable resource worth 4.8 Billion dollars. This is for a company with 12,375,000 shares ( fully diluted I think ) trading at Cdn. 4.32 ( US$3.03 ) or total capitalization of US$37.5 million. $37.5 million to hold a proven resource of 4.8 Billion dollars? Am I missing something? BTW, I'm not management or a stockholder/promoter - just wondering? If their production costs are the least bit reasonable, they might be a trmendous option play on gold.

Any feedback?

Your observation is correct...what will drive gold up is the perception of the US as not the rule maker of the game any more. Ever since WW2, the US has made the rules for the financial game, and has dictated how everyone should play it..any nation who contested it was made to pay..with the arrival of the Euro dollar or whatever they cal it..will give the rest of the world an alternative..the question is will they accept it? Which leads to my other point..the only reason the dollar remains strong is because the US is the bully on the block militarily..we still have the capability to level anyone who stands in our way..when that changes so will the perception of the dollar

Well,I'll be damned.......we've now entered the 20th century! EB: thanks duuuude~~~~~

Nick- Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! A Phenomenal Site!! ( http://tfc-charts.w2d.com/menu.phtml )

IMHO it is more likely we will see a positive move in gold resulting from problems with the EMU than pblm's with the dollar. The central banks of Belgium and Netherlands have been sellers of gold. Problems with the new EMU may result in re-purchase of gold by these same ctrl banks. I don't look near term for a gold rise due to dollar problems. My bet is on short covering, producers buying back and lower or no bank sales. A bail out of Asin's by anybody is a plus for gold also IMHO

Your 7:01 is fascinating. So the shake-up in Asia is not Deflationary, but rather Inflationary. ( local prices soar due to the local currency devaluation ) Could it be that they will export the inflation to US?

After just reading that WSJ article by David Ranson, my eyes popped out of my head. UNBELIEVABLE. Obviously he is not from any classic school of economics. I think I'd rather take notice of Donald's assessment.
While I know I shouldn't rubbish alternate points of view on this site, as it broadens the debate, you have to draw the line somewhere. It is like the guy is calling black white!

Hope you're right! This descent into Hell is making my head swim.

I thought the death of the dollar was a foregone conclusion. The financial powers that be have made a very serious error in their thinking. Purposely, harshly and publicly chastising the Asian Tigers and Japan is a major international stupidity that the round eye and the dollar shall pay for with the implosion of their currency and ultimately their power. Hacking off the Middle East with the flotilla bobbing about offshore is performing nothing more than enflaming hatred for the west and the United States in particular.

The Europeans and the United States have put the fabric of the western world at risk and the east knows it. You cannot have the US running around with the World Bank and IMF yapping like wild dogs and not have major implications. Each of the three entities in the previous sentence is broke. The only way they can exist is if money is created out of thin air. Plain and simple, the people are enslaved through taxation and interest payments are made in perpetuity.

Good grief; the Chinese must be laughing so hard it is difficult for them to keep a straight face in public. Come to think of it, the student-murdering weasel that was just here in the US was smiling the entire time. Oh how he must have been chuckling when he rang the bell at the stock exchange.

What is happening is not that difficult to figure out once you get past all the highbrow Ph.D. mumbo jumbo. The clowns in suits always try to put an air of respectability on these things, but the fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than an old fashioned street fight. Of course they would never sully their clothes in a fight, they will send the sons and daughters of the peasants

The dollar is dead. The next currency to take power will be the Yen or DM. ( if the DM printers can cut a deal the east likes. )

Wouldn't devaluation put pressure on the POG because devaluation makes gold and other assets cost more and therefore force the price down by having less money to buy goods prices in foreign currency and also cause people to sell those asssets like gold that would automatically be worth alot more??

our domestic ( us ) oil industry has re-arisen as the proverbial phoenix.

this bird is impinging upon the hallowed territory of opec.

what has caused the recent big sell-off in crude oil?

could it be that the opec members have decided to add nails to the
coffin by boosting their production ( they are ) , to ensure that
ventures by their competitors are shot out of the sky?

the price of oil follows its' task-masters from one end of the
spectrum to the other depending on whom needs spanking.

manipulation? nahhhh.....

corn is trying to break that nasty old 270 to 280 barrier, depending
what month is being perused. the grains are due a sell-off to help
position for their run to the moon, soon.

cherokee!;------mouth-monitor---------------

Mornin Bro~~~~~~~~~

The issue with RYO is whether they have sufficient cash to complete Kemess, if Kemess will in fact produce as contemplated, and will Kemess provide the necessary cash flow to offset other high cost mine closures if gold remains at this level or lower.

There is a difference between devaluation and deflation. The terms relate to different things. Devaluation is a reduction in the rate of exchange between currencies ( or gold )

Monetary deflation is a reduction in the amount of currency circulating. Credit deflation is a reduction in the amount of credit available. The "price" of gold is sort of meaningless because it relates to the currency you think in. That is a trap. Whatever country you live in it is best to think of gold in terms of its purchasing power. You should make a mental calculation and price it against something you are familiar with. Ask yourself: how many ounces did I earn last year? how many ounces will I earn this year? If you get more ounces you got a raise. Thinking in local currency numbers is part of the illusion that politicians use to make you think you are doing OK when in fact you are not.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/anxiety_over_japan_m_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/japan_economy_imf_1.html

i cannot help but be discouraged

Charlie

Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/astro120297.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/japan_to_seek_deposi_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/imf_russia_japan_1.html

http://search.main.yahoo.com/search/news?p=unrest&n=10

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/dlr_yen_hoggs_limeli_2.html

Your last post says it all in the last paragraph.The people in Japan are getting screwed. The politicians and bankers are treading thin ice. I say if they screw this up the military will step in and you will see what happens when the people demand the heads of those responsible for taking Japan down the path to financial destruction and making deals with the WB, IMF, USA.

If I remember correctly there was this Italian guy and an Archbishop, you know how the rest of the story goes, right?

We keep hearing that Russian workers are not being paid. I wonder if they owe taxes on what they should have received?

ted----

your isp fully functional again? ever considerd having
aol with their 800# as a back-up? i use it when out of
town with another browser. aol's browser platform is
absolute trash compared to netscape communicator which
can be downloaded for free from their web-site.

also, there is a beta test of a program called pointcast
that tracks major indices, stocks, curriencies ( awesome ) ,
and a multitude of data that you configure----for free---
do a websearch or go to shareware or tucows shareware or
let me know and i'll post url.

corn fixin to head to south--------cap-n-kev----vos-is-los?
where is the bean-meister?-------geff, are you riding the grain train?

cherokee!;-----gold-calls------and------golden-corn-puts--; ) -ke-sera-sera

For John Disney ( or anyone else interested ) :

US confiscation:
http://www.oregonobserver.com/March97/gold.htm

German confiscation:
http://users.penn.com/~nms/newsweek.html

TAFN ( that's all for now )

Last night I posted Brazil car sales down 31% for November.

This from Brazil is further confirmation.

A BAD NOVEMBER FOR ELECTRICAL APPLIANCE RETAILERS

Historically the month that accounts for 15 percent of total sales volume for electrical appliance
retailers, November was atypical this year, with some retailers reporting a 30 percent decline in
sales volume compared with November 1996.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-12/04/162l-120497-idx.html

You point out a much ignored dimension to this crisis - political fallout. I was incredulous that the "savers" in the US quietly acquiesced to Greenspan's effective confiscation of their interest to reflate bank capital by keeping short term rates low and handing the banks big spreads. I think you may be right - somebody's going to get really pissed off as they discover that the international financial bale outs are bankers saving other bankers - public be damned.

Here is another possible. Let's say the military says enough is enough. I bet there is an immediate outcry from Clinton and others that UN troops need to be sent in to bring about a peaceful settlement.

At the first mention of it get ready to watch sparks fly.

I guess there's not much market for Turbo Tax in Russia.

..FWIW. Xau sitting in the 67range,might get a bounce to be followed
with a drop to 65 next week.happy trading

Fascism finds wonderful fertilizer in a financial collapse with international "forces" to blame.

donald_a------

highest regards oh shaker of the mighty tree of knowledge!


how, and why, is russia building deep under-ground mini-cities
to survive nuclear war when she cannot/will not pay her civil
servants? how can the imf continue with loans and bail-outs to
countries who verbally espouse co-existence and peace, but who plan and
spend all, preparing for carnage that they will instigate????

gee whizzzzz-------look at the turmoil EVERYWHERE!!!
how can anyone believe it will continue into perpetuity?
look at history. this century to be specific. how many
wars were there? determine an average for the time between
these major conflicts, and where do we now stand? what about
the cycles for the equities? where do we stand relative these
cyclical considerations?

we have just witnessed a record breaking run for stocks, and have
also endured a general peace-time era, un-precedented in history.

'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction'---a-law-of-physics------

this relegates carbon-astro-earth-anouts to cyclical events on a
regular basis. if delayed, the intensity increases. physics. nature.
regardless---of what nomer you apply....a fact is fact.

the only thing left to wonder is when. when-oh-when, not where.


cherokee!;-----friend-of-the-wind-------

---"it" being green grass and high times forever----outlaws----

circuit breakers have been re-set to allow for a bigger harvest
of the sleepwalkers when the crop is ready.------imm-----

It is with immense sadness and heavy heart that I must tell you that my son, STUDIO.R, took his own life at approximately 7:15 this morning. He has been unstable for some time now and when he awoke this morning to learn gold had broken 290, it was simply too much for him.
His last words were, "Mom, tell ol' LGB he was right." And with that he was gone. It might console you to know he has wearing his "GO GOLDBUGS"
t-shirt which he loved so much. He was a good boy, not too bright, but a good boy.
Now on to the business at hand...where can I get dollars for all this gold he has under his bed?

Moments ago with the Dow at 8092 and spot at 289.50 we had a Ratio of 27.95. It backed right off from there. Former market leaders Compaq and Dell are not keeping up with the Dow.

Which game is up? Please elaborate.Thank you.

To John Disney ( Nazi gold confiscation inquiry ) :
I know there wasn't much "meat" in those earlier URLs - still poking around -

Try:
The International Military Tribunal, Nurnberg: Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression

http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/

More detail here, but I haven't had the time to sift through it.

Donald : Jerry Favors projected an intraday top today at 8096 plus or minus 75. Ties in, if it holds. http://www.marketweb.com/commentary/JF1203.htm

Gene Inger Predictions:

Dow over 8,000;
........................new highs no doubt for S&P coming;
.....................................................while facts haven't changed.

What about a drop into mid-December? Well, my opinion is that's still coming, but as it will be a bullish pause for the moment, barring news of shock capability. Complete Market Forecast at:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/inger120297.html

People are cyclical.Historically someone steps out of the
crowd and leads his people to a new order.Maybe a Chinese version of
Adolpf this time.

Do any of you have real life experience of traveling with gold coinage such as $50 American eagle 1oz etc.?

What is the declaration value?

Would it be based upon the daily price of the gold or the face denomenation?

My condolences. As a support group, I guess we have failed. The gold? Bring it over. I'm having a garage sale this weekend. They'll buy anything!

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 10:21
Bill El Zebub ( A.Goose Dec.3rd 22:55 post ) ID#263276:
Which game is up? Please elaborate.Thank you.

Bill, if the Chinese devalue their currency the other Asian tigers ( I don't think they are kittens yet ) will have to follow. As others have pointed out, the trend has been for competitive devaluation in Asia. Their aggressive competitive devaluations have caused massive moves out of the area of foreign investment dollars. The efforts of the IMF have been to try and stabilize this area of the world with massive loans to reassure the investment community. Another round of devaluations would once again spook the investment community. Attachs on the currencies would start again, the spiral would head down. The IMF's loans would be disappear. Thus the game to prop up Asia with paper would be over IMHO

Royal Oak broke below $1.00 US this morning on 3x volume......why?

Silver holding up pretty well these last few days in light of the slide in Gold ... Go SSC

Am unable to find url with a complete description of fcx_pb, does anyone have same?

Considering the traditional investments of these financial behemoths, we may quite imagine them sitting all day long watching over THEIR INVESTMENTS on this Intra-Day chart page - scroll to the bottom:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/intra-day.html

It wasn't only the savers that bailed out the domestic banks/S&Ls and South America some years back. It was everyone who paid 18+ per cent on credit card balances. That 13+ per cent goes a long way, and the American "middle class" will absorb a big share of the bail out this time, joined, of course, by our G-7 friends. Are the wage slaves of America feeding the ruling elite in those "lesser developed" countries?
Well, surprise, surprise!

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 11:00
Savage ( RYO ) ID#280222:

Palladium has also held up quite well. It wasn't to long ago that it traded in the $160 area. Gold must hold 285. Silver 4.83.

Looks like we will test 285 soon. Let's hope.


Fed seems to be in the market heavy everyday.

I called XAU 78 back ii the hot days of summer and was called a jack-ass.Now with the XAU trading 67 we all can repent for our sins. Happy Trails.

In light of the days news of gold down and Clintons day dawning at 12:pm EST ( see drudge report ) a ray of sunshine. A company was wanting to re-engineer themselves to become a lean mean global machine. I bought the services of three consultants. The president told the three consultants that the one that could give the best answer to an age old question would receive the contract. He took each into a room. There were two glasses of water. And the CEO asked the first what he saw. The first being upbeat as he was invested in stocks and had sold the drillers four weeks ago and had bought back in Monday said the glass was half full. The second was brought in. The second was a diehard goldbug. He had sold his stocks in 1994 and averaged in buying the fine yellow. He had spent the rest of his reserves Monday and bought more gold. He said the glass was half empty. The third was brought in. The third had started his career with TI. Then ATT and IBM. His last employeer was Levi Strauss. He had no 401K, no insurance or a pension. If he didn't git this contract his house was gone and his wife too. He walked around the table. He looked at the each glass and the ammount of water in each. Finally he stoped and told the CEO. The problem is there is too much glass.

A.Goose: I'm sorry, but I did not understand your 11:15...perhaps something was left out? PS. your spelling was fine.

Who needs ShaQ....Jack.

Go Gold!

Away...from losing

winninandlovin

Savage - mail me and I will tell all.....well almost all. I don't want to bore the 'heavies' anymore than I already do.....

away...to work

L

A.GOOSE: I concur totally with your "Attachs on the currencies would start again, the spiral would head down. The IMF's loans would disappear. Thus the game to prop up Asia with paper would be over IMHO." RIGHT ON!

Just by extending massive loans to Asian Banks, the IMF IS NOT ADDRESSING THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM: Which is simply that the borrowers cannot repay their debts! The borrowers bit off more than they can chew financially. It is equivalent to the hapless worker who earns only $1,000 per month, but who has found a aggressively imprudent bank which finances the purchase of a luxury home requiring $2,500 per month mortgage payments. After a short while the hapless worker uses up all his savings to make up the short-fall in monthly mortgage payments. His pleadings encourage a second bank to extend him another loan to pay the next three months mortgage. But alas, the hapless worker STILL ONLY EARNS $1,000 PER MONTH... etc etc until BOTH bank resources are depleted. The borrowers simply CANNOT PAY THEIR DEBTS!

It doesn't take a double Ph.D. in Mathematics AND Finance to understand the ludicrous folly of the Asian Banking Debacle looming on the horizon of the Land of the SETTING Sun... and the horiffic ramifications which inevitably will ensue.

This evening GOLD-EAGLE will be posting the LATEST analysis of the Asian Banking Domino Effect by John Kutyn - whose LAST essay was selected for the November HALL OF FAME:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/awards/spotlight.html

Deepest sympathy. The 10:53 from last night is
taped to the wall in the study. It was the the
funniest thing I have ever read here.

How are things down at the pond?

Any more stories from the Gold show that you would not mind retelling? Knowledge is power?

To trade a dead man's Gold for the buck,

Ask the Nazis and Sveads,they had luck.

Since today you appear to show little grief,

May we put YOU in the company of these same thieves.

It's impressive how you've talked today,as your Son just passed away,

Is this what we are to expect,or a one time show of disrespect.

Being right is of course admired today,

For the wrong reasons lead many to their dismay.

The price of Gold notwithstanding,

To your son may we say..HAPPY LANDING!!

Watching RYO and PGU and ECO drop like they have it would appear that we are into the forced liquidation stage of this downturn. TVX is also dropping like a rock. Margin calls are a fact of life and I have a buddy who got one today because of gold stocks. Put up more money or sell. RYO has had a lot of insider buying over the last year and I sure hope it wasnt on borrowed money. bye

We will be looking at another Mexican loan situation in Asia.

The money will be all gone sooner than expected, although the loans will remain current through creative flipping of the paper. The average worker in these countries will pay a huge price...and sooner than you think we will be back at square one ....as Yogi said Deja Vu all over again.

Please repost.

Larry Kudlow and another Kitco poster have made it very plain that the US Dollar is ALREADY BACK ON THE GOLD STANDARD! That's why the Dollar is soaring, bond yields are falling and gold is crashing through the floor! The Fed-led and Fed-engineered Asian DEFLATION will help the US DOLLAR to revalue everything including OIL, the DOW and GOLD!

I believe that before this is all over we shall see $50.00 Gold! Why else are the 1 oz. US Gold Eagles denominated at $50/oz? The US DOLLAR will be the RESERVE CURRENCY OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER ( Novus Ordo Saeculorum ) and it will be as Larry Kudlow asserts "AS GOOD AS GOLD" perhaps even better because it will pay interest in gold-backed dollars!

The NEW PARADIGM is being established and structured right now and it's DOLLAR-BASED and GOLD-BACKED! Shocking as it may seem, both Rubin and Greenspan are ardent goldbugs who are quietly behind the scenes buying up
as much gold as they can lay their hands on through the auspices of the US Treasury and the FED in order to make the US DOLLAR the currency of currencies for the new millennium! THE currency in which all world trade will be denominated, valued and transacted!

Thus the US will own the manufacturing capacity of Asia even as it now owns the manufacturing capacity of Latin America! Indeed, the US will RULE THE WORLD, economically, politically, culturally and militarily! The US FED will be its banker. The US MILITARY will be its enforcer. The US consumer will be its conscience.

And GOLD WILL TRADE AND BE FIXED at $50/oz. just like The US American Eagle 1 oz. gold coin says! If anyone cares to dispute any of this you are welcome to consider the alternatives. And I'll warn you, they're NOT very pretty!

Post/Bloomberg say Singapore branch shut

National Bank of Canada NA

Shares issued 168,307,543 Dec 3 close $22.95

Thu 4 Dec 97 In the News

The Financial Post reports in Bloomberg dispatch its Thursday edition that

National Bank of Canada is shutting its branch in Singapore because of

deteriorating business and heightened credit risk in southeast Asia. The

Singapore branch of the Montreal-based bank, which is Canada's

sixth-largest, and its Singapore-based merchant banking arm employ 15

people.

BREAKING STORIES:

The changing nature of economic crises
HIGHLY INTERESTING SPEECH by Australian
Reserve Bank Governor Ian Macfarlane
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971205/verbatim/verbatim1.html

HK property slashed 20pc post-slump
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971205/world/world1.html

Senate primes Govt's Wik election trigger - Pastoralists worried
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971205/news/news4.html
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971205/news/news9.html

Koreans await painful details
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971205/world/world2.html

IN REVIEW:

Argentine sell-off sends gold to lows
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/971204/business/business3.html

Japan shows worst growth rate since '74
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971204/world/world1.html

The good, the bad and the ugly banks of Asia
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971204/world/world4.html

The D-word is out -- but Greenspan didn't dwell on it
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971204/world/world3.html

Deflation is hitting home - oil included
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971204/market/markets5.html

Concern over Japanese Life Companies
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971203/world/world2.html

IMF quietly hijacks separate Asian rescue fund
http://www.afr.com.au/content/971203/world/world4.html

High Interest Rates & Unemployment to result from IMF $88bn deal
http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/971202/world/world4.html


BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/blizard.htm

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 11:42
PrivateInvestor ( A.Goose ) ID#225283:

All is fine at the pond, we are thinking of lining it with gold ( never thought we would be able to afford that much gold but looks viable now ) .

I think I covered the high points of the gold show.

I am very interested in comex gold stocks and deliveries for this month. I keep wondering if the shorts are driving the price down so hard hoping to have the longs roll over rather than take delivery. Something, just isn't right. At these prices Bill Gates could corner the gold market all by himself. Heck if the trend continues, I will be able to corner the market. You just have to laugh at it sometimes.

Dow/Gold Ratio of 28.20 a few minutes ago

Gold falling like a rock, -4.80 .
Looks like we'll see 275. soon....

you'll get rid of the gold table settings and eat from PAPER!
an assortment of treasuries perhaps? 2 yr with appetizers, 5 yr with
salad, etc.?

Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.29 now

To John Disney ( again... )

http://veritas.nizkor.org/Harvest/cgi-bin/nph-search.cgi?query=gold+confiscation&broker=Web&caseflag=on&wordflag=on&errorflag=0&opaqueflag=on&descflag=on&verbose=on&maxobjflag=50&maxlineflag=10&maxresultflag=100

It appears that "refusal to comply" was a non- issue. ( the dead rarely protested )

DONALD: Any calls for a Dow/Gold Ratio top? From your charts, that equals the 1966 top, as I recall. I really did miss your ratio submissions when you were off this site before. Keep it up mate!

Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.09 right now

Yup,my ISP is fully ( as full as is it gets ) functional ( ?? ) but don't think I can get AOL ( even with 800# ) from this distant perch and even if I can Kinda hate changing e-mail address etc. as don't anticipate being here all that much longer ( ( grin thing ) ) .....go gold+ crops....unions suk!

This seems like an important day! The old monthly high was 28.61 set in January, 1966.

All things are not as they seem. The FED needs and wants as much cheap gold as it can gets its hands on to establish the supremacy of the US Dollar and dollar-denominated debt in the new millenium. Thus the CB war on gold! The goal is to so discredit gold and demoralize gold investors/speculators that the price of gold in terms of dollars collapses to a level which will allow the US FED to FIX the price of gold at $50 oz and establish the dollar as the WORLD'S ONLY HARD RESERVE CURRENCY! Thus the WAR ON GOLD is in reality a BATTLE FOR GOLD! A battle which both Rubin and Greenspan MUST WIN and INTEND to win if the US is not to IMPLODE and leave the NWO without any major superpower to enforce its will! Think about it!

Oh dear, another buying stock buying panic again today. They have better panic right past 8300 on the DJ, to make it worthwhile.

One does wonder though, that the rest of the world quietly acquiesed
as we pushed our paper to buy their gold.

It is difficult to comprehend the great love and reverence with which the rest of the world regards us, and the job we've done thus far as the world's key currency.

Particularly as Bundesbank officials have been so free with their
disapproval of our niggardly little balance of payments problem...

And China's rather unkind remarks about our lack of discipline with
regards to matters monetary...

But one must be grateful that they are all back on board, signed
up, and ready to put their heads in our yoke. Are we not Grand?

http://www.herald.ns.ca/cgi-bin/home/loadmain?1997/12/04+233.raw
Darrell ( the MORON ) Tingley is from Nova Scotia and he is very very STUPID

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 11:57
THE GOLDEN PROPHET ( Pax American Aureana ) ID#372262:

I am but a goose, so when you have a $50 1 ounce gold coin, how does that work for backing the vast quantities of U.S. dollars?

Each dollar is backed by 1/50 of an ounce of gold?

262,000,000 ounces ( times ) 50 = 13,100,000,000

Is 13 billion enough?

Of course my numbers might be off, please run some numbers so we can see how this works out.

acquiesced
for grading purposes, that was a typing error
so please deduct only 1/2 point

If you are there lurking why don't you predict a down day on the Dow. Last time you did it worked. If I do it the jinx will be on.

Simply lop off the required number of zeros! In other words, revalue the currency and back it with gold! Better than inflating the currency to zero and imploding when the boomers all start to retire!

Please, could someone tell us what date we will know about the COMEX stocks being non-sufficient for orderly settlement? Thanks in advance!

Here is a list of four gold companies I know of that offer a preferred with a decent yield from 7 to 11 percent. All are listed on the NYSE along with the respective common stock. We hold these in an IRA for yield while waiting for gold to resume it's upward trend.
AMAX GOLD PFD. B, BATTLE MTN. GOLD PFD. B, COEUR D'ALENE PFD. B ( MARCS ) , & HECLA MINING PFD.B.
Good place to park your gold investments with a good return and some safety.

Get yer sh!t together duuude----I'm countin on ya~~~~~~~

On your list of four stocks. Are the dividends safe?

I like tomorrow better.

Here is one from CNN Interactive:


Dow higher, helped by
drugs

Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.98 right now

Why RYO is going down? It is simple:

1.Tax-oriented selling at the year end.
2.Production cost is higher than the current price of gold -
- means no cash flow
3.No cash flow means Kemess project is in question besides all other
things, nobody who bet on upside move likes it.
4.At this time it's my serious assumption that they could even
close ALL MINES
for several month to conserve cash for KEMESS.
5.Some large scale short selling is possible under the cover of general
bearish sentiment on gold and gold stocks.

In general, at this time RYO looks like a classic high risk/high reward
kind of stock. I think that their near-term goal is just not to go donw
completely and keep the company alive in 1998. If, by any accident, gold
price recovers in the nearest time to $325-340, it is good for RYO,
otherwise this stock is in question.

Still think that if RYO survives in these conditions and if price
of gold recovers, this is a good stock to own. Unfortunately, we are
looking now not just at Roayl Oak potential, which is promising,
but alsoat two very serious "IFs".

Ritalin Rx's are at an all time high and rising. Maybe this whole thing is due to Attention Deficit disorder.

TED,
G'day sunny here, calm, no icebergs.

SDRerDo we have to watch spelling now? Gold where? Am thinking to visit JM again, soon....

One plus ( ? ) for el nino -- most NZ wineries expecting a superlative year this year. The dry east coast weather is giving a very high sugar content already.--- The prominent winds have been wet Nor' Westerlies, dumping high rainfall on the Southern Alps and all West Coast areas, giving the East coast wineries perfect wine-producing weather.

aurawinetaster

If gold spot penetrates $284.25 then we are in real trouble. This low must hold or all the bets are off. I like the speed at which we are getting there, hope for a strong rebound from there.
Real money is on big sale. I'd say it is on 35% sale and considering the world's financial situation this sale is more like 50-70%. I am sure smart money is buying all they can from all the weak idiots, manipulators and CBs at this very moment.
Even though deflation is still a possibility , I am still unsure since US money supply is exploding. Watch this all important indicator. If it stays well above 10-12% for long, maybe the $$$ presses will win the battle.
This historic speculative bubble must be fed phenomenal amount of liquidity for it to continue. And remember that the FRB can not stop this demand for liquidity without raising rates considerably!!!


Anyone has an internet address that shows montly M3 changes???????
PLEASE post it!!!!!!

god help us....the 5% of the human population that consumes 25% of the resources and flatulates 33% of the pollution.
The US is the fat spoilt disgusting kid at the end of the table guzzling everything in reach and messing himself at the same time...they have no conscience.

A NEW WORLD backlash will whip this errant fool in time.

No. I just want Cherokee to know that I'm trying
( but my reach exceeds my gasp...see what I mean...

This is perhaps the most comprehensive and accurate overview of the HOUSE OF ROTHSCHILDs financial activities during the last 200 years. And undoubtedly, NO ONE heretofore has ever come closer - indeed DARED - to estimating the extent of the Rothschild wealth TODAY... and what it might be up to in its traditional business of trading Treasuries and GOLD:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/markus112297.html

See how the world loves and admires us?

steady: REF: "Anyone has an internet address that shows monthly M3 changes???????" SEE:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/milhouse1130.html

THE STOCKS ARE CONVERTIBLE PREFERREDS AND THE DIVIDEND IS SET AT TIME OF ISSUE. THEY CAN CONVERT TO COMMON STOCK AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO THE EXPIRATION DATE BY THE COMPANY OR THE HOLDER. USUALLY THE STOCK CARRIES A PREMIUM WHICH FAVORS THE HOLDER IF THE PREFERRED IS CALLED.
I WILL BE OFF POST UNTIL AFTER 10PM LOS ANGELES TIME.
REGARDS..

I share your revulsion. But as a Canadian I wonder... Why have Canadians bought into it so completely, and why is every emerging culture so axious to trade down to their last cultural tradition to hop aboard?

Who has an opinion about year 2000 crisis and the price of gold? Ive spend the last 100+ days doing lots of research about "y2k" and Im not very optimistic about a smooth transition into the next century with our computer networks, distribution systems, et al.

It seems obvious to me, FWIW, that gold will sky rocket when its clear that major banks may have problems processing transactions over the date change. ( eg. Bank runs etc. ) Conclusion? Buy goldand hang on to it for at least the next 758 days!

COME ON 4 more $$$$ off the gold price, so we know where we are. I believe $284.25 +/- $.5 is the real test! The 1985 low must hold! It is up from there!???

All: Greetings, especially my neighbors just across the border in Toronto and environs.

Bart: Thanks for the registration.

Found the following in "Answers to 200 of Life's Most Probing Questions" by Pat Robertson. Relates, in a way, to the 60 year cycle many of us have noted:



The law of use, in terms of money, is an awesome principle. Money, compounded, grows at an astonishing rate. Baron Rothschild called compound interest the "eighth wonder of the world". If a person takes $100 and double it every year for twenty years, he will have $50 million. If he continues doubling it for thirty more years, he will havee $12.8 quadrillion, which is more money than there is in the entire world! Such is the power of compound interest.

But God is not unaware of the law of compound interest. After all, this is His basic law of personal growth in the kingdom. Therefore He wisely made a provision in Israel to counterbalance the effects of compounding, the year of Jubilee.

Every fifty years during the year of Jubilee the people had to do three basic things. First, they had to cancel debts. Every debt outstanding, by every debtor, was cancelled. Second, they had to release slaves, because slavery is a form of indebtedness. Every person had to be given his freedom, unless he voluntary and freely acknowledged that he wanted to remain a slave. Third, all agricultural land, what we would term today the means of production, was to be returned to the families who had originally owned it.

There was, every fifty years, a redistribution of wealth through the cancellation of wealth and a reassignment of land. Then another fifty year cycle began. For the next fifty years, the people were permitted to accumulate as much as they wanted to without any arbitrary limits. At the end of that time, there was another year of Jubilee. Debts were canceled, slaves were freed, and the basic means of production redistributed.

In our capitalistic Western society we have a redistribution mechanism called a depression. Every fifty to fifty-six years, the accumulation of debt becomes insupportable, and the normal free market mechanisms fail to function. Over capacity develops, prices fall, and we have a crash. During that time, banks fail and debtors go into bankruptcy. As debtors are released one way or the other, credit is contracted, the accumulation of debt is diminished, and many of the means of production are put into new hands.

There is a new, fresh vitality that comes about in society. Society, in a sense, starts over again. Our way of doing it is very painful. The biblical year of Jubilee is something that our society ought to learn. Otherwise, we will be faced very shortly with a major crash and a depression.




Wise words.

SDer, i'm a fairly moderate example confining my furor to words. The yankee shennanigans in Asia have not gone unnoticed. These people have heard for way too long how the US wants to "help" them, and the majority still have a subsitence lifestyle while the US whales it up.
After having a taste of what it might be like they will not stand by and be DICTATED to...I see US$55 billion in Korea as just gone down the drain. A new government who won't commit to economic dictatorship and unions vowing to have national strikes...oh no things in Asia are not getting better, they just got a whole lot worse.
Yankee corporations will barge in now looking for bargains and more cheap "slave" labour and lax environmental laws....they may find some nasty suprises....

Thanks for the historical M3 source. If you know the address for current M3 data as they are released PLEASE post. Thank in advance.

JT8D - never thought of it that way. Makes a lot of sense.

I agree with all said in BOTH posts...
I deeply love the principles upon which my country was founded
but am now a stranger in my own land

kiwi - it is a really simple game plan. Internally, in a country, you use privately owned CB to control the monetary policy, i.e.; control the economy. Externally, you control the economies of others by "loaning" them $$$ through IMF/World Banks with strings attached. It is not a very complicated game. And it works, believe me! Forget social antiquated social philosofies, do it with business since it knows no borders.

US founding principles are truly worthy and I think this what most of the world looks to, this along with Hollywood images of sun, beaches, babes and money... ( Baywatch is the MOST watched show the world over! ) .
So coupling the greed with basic human dignities and it is a natural attraction, sad that the reality is not portrayed so faithfully, rich/poor gap at 250 to 1...a third world underclass within a "first" world nation.
Some yankees I know are the salt of the earth, when I wonder how it got so out of whack....i can only conclude greed not need and breed not deed.

I was just flipping through the channels and caught CNBC saying it may be time to buy mining shares and, no kidding, physical metal. Tune in and see for yourself.

Concerning Y2K, the jury is still out on what the depth and impact of that situation will be. Even the experts with the gloomiest predictions admit that the net fallout may be manageable.

My personal expectation ( speaking as a professional software engineer who is not in the Y2K repair business ) is that humanity will be walking across a narrow bridge into the next century, and the Y2K problem may compound other difficulties in such a way as to create significant dislocation.

It is my own position that the result will be a skyrocketing in the price of gold and more so in gold stocks. A time of tremendous international insecurity, with just enough stability to allow continued trading in the equities markets, is the scenario I envision. I think $10000/oz gold is of course very unlikely but it is not impossible.

Concerning the 60-year depression economic cycle, the computerization of international economics, the IMF, and other factors have IMHO had the effect of tampering with the economic clock the way artificial hormones confuse a body's natural cycle. Sixty years may be a natural cycle time, but we live in such an unnatural era, I do not see how that could apply now.

People have been preaching doomsday, international unsettling, etc. for a long time, and have almost always been wrong. Nevertheless, how ironic if the race that has fought off and endured pestilence, plague, famine, genocidal tyrants and all the other forces that have sought its demise, is finally brought to its knees by the simple stroke of midnight that ushers in the year 2000 and cripples the magnificent computers that order our lives.

Some basic thoughts on gold for the novice:

http://www.best.com/~dolphin/Gold.html

Tg-I don't see how the 2000 transition can be done smoothly. Its gonna create some big problems. I can't make up my mine how big though. I certainly want to be out of paper assets by then. Another problem: When do I get out? What will be the signal lto get rid of paper? If the demand for gold doesn't intensify before 2000 and after, there's no hope for it.

U.S. calls 1998 conference on Nazi assets
LONDON ( Reuters ) - The United States said Thursday it would
hold a second international conference in Washington next year
to probe further the origins and fate of assets looted by the
Nazis.
``There will be a conference that we will convene under the
auspices of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum,'' U.S.
Undersecretary Stuart Eizenstat said on the final day of a
conference on gold the Germans stole during World War II.
He told reporters the conference would take place either in
late spring or early summer.
Jewish organizations say another conference is vital because
the London meeting has only had time to touch briefly on many
complex topics such as where exactly the Nazi gold came from and
how Holocaust survivors can be compensated.
``We began to focus today on other assets -- including real
property, securities, bonds, insurance and artwork. The
continued research and discovery of these issues is important in
providing a more complete picture of this set of issues,''
Eizenstat said.
``To build on this start, and to give attention to these
other assets in particular, it is important to commit to a
follow-up conference.''


It's amazing how much mileage ( bad press ) they're getting out of a lousy 60-80 tons of gold...what about the hundreds of tons pillaged from the Inca, not to mention the millions butchered.

Why is it that whenever the bottom is beginning to drop out of a stock or commodity, the media recommends to the average investor to go long?

SEOUL, South Korea ( Reuters ) - An IMF-led rescue package for
South Korea was expanded to a record $57 billion Thursday, but
many South Koreans reacted with humiliation and anger to the
deal even as it has breathed new life into the ailing economy.
The militant Korea Confederation of Trade Unions promised to
wage ``all-out strikes'' if companies pushed for layoffs as a
result of concessions to the International Monetary Fund.
South Korea was rocked by a month of worker unrest earlier
this year after the government rammed a controversial labor law
through parliament. The government was forced to postpone until
1999 a provision that would have made layoffs easier.
The Finance Ministry said the package of loans had grown by
$2 billion to $57 billion after Italy said it would join in and
three other countries increased their offerings.
Political parties were especially eager to exploit voters'
feelings of shame ahead of presidential elections scheduled for
Dec. 18.
``We cannot help but question the IMF's attitude. The IMF is
acting as if it is an economic conqueror,'' the governing Grand
National Party said in a statement.

Kiwi: there's a real difference between the Incas and the Jews. The Jews control much of US business and US politics.

FOCUS - Moody's flashes warning sign on Brazil
LONDON, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - Brazil faces serious difficulties
that have begun to threaten its economic stability as confidence
in its anti-inflation programme ebbs, Moody's Investors Service
said on Thursday.
While the ceiling on Brazil's sovereign ratings was not yet
compromised, the New York-based credit rating agency said
further pressure on the real was likely.
"Among the most serious difficulties are its overvalued
currency, its huge current account deficit, the delays in
implementing vital adjustments and structural reform policies,"
Moody's said in a report.

Re the 1985 low, what was the XAU low? Anyone?

You are killing me, clear the table, that was pretty damn funny.

Tolerant1: I missed that cause I was watching the world cup soccer draw instaed. I would have loved to hear their reasons. What analyst was it?

I think they said now it would be at 3:00 est.

It's going to occur to some of these countries that they'd better get some IMF money while there is still some there.

Carl - The XAU low, reached in the months following the low of $284.25 in gold was 60.5.

sdr-er----


spelling was not the point.....it was a blind-side.

it seems to me as though you have the same problem
with understanding what you are writing....

on that note....

would you care to explain the term "niggardly," and the
exact context in which you were TRYING to position it?

cherokee!;\----string-stretched-taut------

they thought it was a going to be haircut and come out minus kidneys, liver, pints of blood, pounds of flesh...soon found out had sold their heart and soul too.
Dr. Spin... at your service...leave your gold fillings and rings in the plastic Mc Donalds tray by the door.

The only mining stock other than golds that I would recommend is INCO, world's largest Nickel miner. I here it's trading at book value. It's ripe for a takeover sometime soon.

THE SOLUTION TO THE DISTORTED PRESS AND MANIPULATION ON GOLD IS TO FIGHT THE CB'S AND SHORT SELLERS WITH THE FORMATION OF A GOLD CARTEL WHERE ALL MINING COs DECIDE TO COVER THEIR FORWARD SALES AND TO WITHHOLD GOLD BY SHUTING IN THEIR PRODUCTION. THE CB,S ARE AT WAR WITH ALL MINING COMPANIES AND PRIVATE HOLDERS OF GOLD. IT'S TIME TO UNITE AND FIGHT!!!

I would like INCO also but......they have a huge exposure to the asian ontagen don'tm they.

Does any one out there know the extent of exposure to Placer Dome?

Thanks

UP UP UP UP UP

DOW, leave no head un-turned
as your final boosters burn.
Payload full of space bound dreams
touches twilight spacial seams.

Just as all your hype-r fuel
burns the brightest shade a blue,
winking out, its pressure spent,
will bring this glory to its end.

.........................................

There will be no glee as we watch the exact and rapid reversal of the lines that equities and gold have thus far traced. This is the final throws of euphoric bliss, just before the night is upon us. The devastation to the world will certainly touch the smallest to the greatest.

Understand this: those who hear their God speak of judgement will soon be out of harms way. Then the waters which stand as a heap will be released and will destroy the persuing 'army' of Egypt. This is why this catastrophy was delayed: to spare those who hear and obey.

CNBC recommending AU physical and shares?? We are within a hair of the all important support level of $284.25. The big boys must be ready; now we need the psychological change. Should we strap ourselves in??

Hellloooo...sniff, sniff, sniff

Hello, Mrs. Cool Lurk, I hate to bother you at this time...and allow me to convey our deepest sympathy for the loss of your brilliant son...but this is Alan Greenspan from the United States of America Treasury Department. And...well, frankly maam we thought you might could use some dollars to give your son, STUDIO.R, the kind of burial he so richly deserves.

Well that's so thoughtful of you Mr. Greasecan, some cash would sure help this poor old woman...If I may ask, Just how can I help you?

Well, maam, we do buy a little gold from time to time to help our neighbors out of pinches. You see, like Stevie Wonder once said...we are the world. I believe Willie Nelson said that too.

Well, Mr. Greaseman, I do love Willie Nelson and so did my son. I know this sounds horrible...but just how much is my boys' gold worth.

Ms. Cool Lurk, as you may have heard on CNBC the price of gold has collapsed...however, I am prepared to pay you $50. an ounce...that's fifty big ones, maam.

Well, Mr. Greenspam, I know my son would be pleased about this...and May
GOD Bless You Too.

Ms. Cool Lurk it has been our pleasure to help, and next time I will take you up on some of that banana pudding!

My son just loved that puddin', come again.

Oh maam, I'll have Mr. Battipaglia stop by and pick that old gold up and how would you like that cash?

Mr. Grenspam, I sure would like some of those new gold colored dollar coins...that would be so sweet.

Good day, maam.

The all time low for the XAU was July 28, 1986 when it hit 59.13. The second lowest day was 59.96 on July 8, 1986, some 20 days earlier. Those are the only two readings in history below 60.00

COMPANY NEWS ( sm ) provided by Dow Jones Online News


12/4/97 Gold Stocks Fall To 52-Week Lows, But Analysts See It Bottoming

By Rebecca Wolf

Staff Reporter


NEW YORK - ( Dow Jones ) - Most gold stocks dropped to 52-week lows Thursday as the price of gold continued to fall. But analysts say they expect gold to bottom out in the next few weeks, and see an upturn at the new year.
In London, gold was fixing at $289.35 an ounce Thursday afternoon. Gold prices roared to $800 an ounce in the 1970s and 1980s as inflation dominated investors' minds and undermined confidence in the value of the dollar. It began to fall in the 1990s, and last year fell from the low $400s to the mid-$300s, and has been steadily decreasing ever since.
Analysts attributed the drop in the price of gold to selloffs from the central banks as well as from individual investors.
"It's just plain ugly," said Steven Porter of Elliott Wave International. "There's been a blowout." But Porter said he expects to see an upswing at the start of 1998. "From a technical perspective, gold is entitled to a sharp-snap rally," he said.
ABN AMRO Chicago Corp. analyst Todd Hinrichs agreed. "In the next two to three weeks, we should see a bottoming out ( of gold prices ) ," he said. "But then prices should firm up." Hinrichs said one reason he expects gold prices to increase is that "many mines are insolvent." As production decreases, he said, supplies will be lower. The demand for gold, which increases especially at lower prices, will then put upward pressure on prices, he added.
Until gold prices improve, most of the stocks in the sector will likely be weak, analysts said.
Virtually all large-cap gold stocks were trading down Thursday afternoon, and most fell below 52-week lows set earlier this week.
Leading the losses was Amax Gold Inc. ( AU ) , which was trading down 12.5 cents, or 5.9%, at $2 - the level of its previous year low set Tuesday.
Placer Dome Inc. ( PDG ) was down 68.8 cents, or 5.8%, at $11.125. Earlier, it had dropped to $11.063, below the previous 52-week low of $11.75 set Wednesday.
Coeur D'Alene Mines Corp. ( CDE ) was down 37.5 cents, or 4.7%, at $7.688, below the year low of $7.875 set Wednesday.
Battle Mountain Gold Co. ( BMG ) was down 18.8 cents, or 4%, at $4.50, below its 52-week low of $4.625 set Wednesday.
Newmont Mining Corp. ( NEM ) was trading down 93.8 cents, or 3.2%, at $28.375, below its low of $29.313 set Wednesday.
Barrick Gold Corp. ( ABX ) was down 43.8 cents, or 2.7%, at $16. Earlier, it had falled to $15.875, below the 52-week low of $15.938 set Monday.
Homestake Mining Co. ( HM ) fell 25 cents, or 2.5%, to $9.75, below the year trough of $10 set Wednesday.
Remaining above its 52-week low of $2.063 set Monday was Echo Bay Mines Ltd. ( ECO ) , which was trading down 12.5 cents, or 5.4%, at $2.188.
Copyright ( c ) 1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.

2:39 PM

Wow ! Dow at 8065; Gold at 286.25 and still flying south for the winter;
XAU at 65.7; HUI at 93. Are we all having fun yet !?

this may not be politically correct but over the years ( 2500 ) Jewish folks have shown themselves to be fairly smart in matters of money, so I was wondering if they consider this price to be cheap enough to be buying gold? Are there any statistics anywhere that might demonstrate this?

Or have they also changed into believing this a barberous relic and they are also stockings up on US$ toilet paper for when banks and everybody gets the runs after this humdinger party?

Jubilee year anyone?

27 days and counting---------

alert----alert----toilet-paper-alert!!

27 days and counting---------

alert----alert----toilet-paper-alert!!

Thanks

I have suffered a 1929-1933 equivalent crash in AU and AU shares in just a few short months. And it does not feel as bad as one would expect since I know that I will recover rather quickly. I just feel sorry?? for the DOW investors since they have the slide ahead and will stay there for perhaps a generation.

Dr. Paul A. Hein, M.D. shares his insightful views on Why a currency is strong or weak. His poignant example of a weak currency is the Albanian Lek vis--vis a strong currency, the Almighty Buck. It exudes common-sense logic... and is indeed a refreshing down to earth explanation of the underlying rationale:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials/hein120297.html

GOP investigators claim there is no record of Larry Lawrence serving in Merchant Marine during WW2. Administration claims that he served under an assumed name because he was Jewish:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a42472.htm

Same old bear arguments. Gold loosing its special status. Just another
commodity, etc. etc. Slightly new twist is that S.E. Asian demand is falling. No mention was made of mine shutdowns or demand in other parts of the world. Nothing also about the very large borrowed gold position.
We must be getting very close to the bottom.

The CUPW is just what all the Juniors up there need right now. No mail. I wonder if that makes everyone feel real confident in the government?

In the past year, I managed a Y2K assessment for one of the largest companies in the USA, and have been involved with a few more Y2K projects for Fortune 100 companies. All of these companies are currently conducting "assessments" of the problems, but haven't started any of the corrections.

Most of the mainframe Operating Systems currently being used are not Year 2000 compliant. The companies that write the Operating Systems have not yet issued compliant versions, and most will not make schedule commitments for issuing these versions. Therefore, any financial software that runs on these systems will have to be tested ( and likely fixed ) AFTER the Operating Systems are upgraded. The testing alone usually requires a few months. Absolutely no one can be certain that their software is "compliant" until it has been tested.

About half of all the manufacturing control systems that were sold last year were not Year 2000 compliant. Historically, these systems are installed and arent fixed until they break. Most of these will continue to function just fine, but a few will fail. Which ones? Every chip and every module of software would have to be evaluated.

Financial systems will be hit hardest, especially General Ledger software that companies usually dont like to replace. Understandably, companies usually dont like to fidget with the methods they use to calculate profits, income, and expenses.

In most companies, it comes down to politics. The Financial people have a system that is currently working, so they dont see a problem. In a typical company, a small group of computer folks have been maintaining a mainframe accounting system for 10-20 years. These people may see the MAJOR PROBLEMS coming, but they would be out of work if the company re-wrote the software, or switched to a compliant version of PeopleSoft, SAP, BAAN, or one of the other financial systems ( completely different technology! ) . Therefore, they are waiting.... and waiting....

In the past year, I managed a Y2K assessment for one of the largest companies in the USA, and have been involved with a few more Y2K projects for Fortune 100 companies. All of these companies are currently conducting "assessments" of the problems, but haven't started any of the corrections.

Most of the mainframe Operating Systems currently being used are not Year 2000 compliant. The companies that write the Operating Systems have not yet issued compliant versions, and most will not make schedule commitments for issuing these versions. Therefore, any financial software that runs on these systems will have to be tested ( and likely fixed ) AFTER the Operating Systems are upgraded. The testing alone usually requires a few months. Absolutely no one can be certain that their software is "compliant" until it has been tested.

About half of all the manufacturing control systems that were sold last year were not Year 2000 compliant. Historically, these systems are installed and arent fixed until they break. Most of these will continue to function just fine, but a few will fail. Which ones? Every chip and every module of software would have to be evaluated.

Financial systems will be hit hardest, especially General Ledger software that companies usually dont like to replace. Understandably, companies usually dont like to fidget with the methods they use to calculate profits, income, and expenses.

In most companies, it comes down to politics. The Financial people have a system that is currently working, so they dont see a problem. In a typical company, a small group of computer folks have been maintaining a mainframe accounting system for 10-20 years. These people may see the MAJOR PROBLEMS coming, but they would be out of work if the company re-wrote the software, or switched to a compliant version of PeopleSoft, SAP, BAAN, or one of the other financial systems ( completely different technology! ) . Therefore, they are waiting.... and waiting....

I am sorry to hear that you have taken a loss on gold. It is true that I took some very profitable short positions, but I have taken my profits and am very much "long cash" now ( US dollars, that is ) . I agree that the Dow is risky at these levels, but not as risky as gold. I may buy gold, but not just yet.

Allen ( USA ) , Donald,all: It is clear that we are in a deflationary mode. Commodity prices are dropping, and gold stocks are doing what they usually do when commodity prices fall - drop! My guess is that the gold stocks will contnue to drop until there is a credit crunch or a dollar crunch.

What AG is going to do is to open the floodgates even more to prevent the deflation. What is he going to do to minimize the chance of inflating the market bubble even more? He can't raise rates!

http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news100c.htm

...FWIW cycle hasn't played out yet,exhaustion phase we are
in now could last a few more trading days.Gold might
penetrate 280 to give everybody a scare and Xau go intraday to 62.
To many traders were looking for the 285 number.

But they finished up with the comment that we last saw this type of action is silver prior to CB bailing from silver backing to gold and went into a Worldwide DEPRESSION!!! I cannot imagine they are allowed to say that word .

Is there a government???

Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/astro120297.html

Thanks for your insights. I haven't seen much written about your point of the operating systems which must be fixed even before the application software can be tested.

There is a lot of software running out there which was written for government contracts. I understand that those applications run under various versions of old operating systems and old versions of software products. Do you have a feel for the extent of this problem? Thanks.

G'day mate!!! Whatever yer weather is, ours is nicer ( silly lookin grin thing ) back to the kitchen---grenn potatoes ( thanx Danny Qualye ) ...gotta run---don't want ta burn nothin~~~~~~Go ( up fer christ sakes ) Gold!

HONG KONG, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - Gold will find support at $270/275 per ounce, Martin Armstrong, chairman of Princeton

Economics International said.

``It is very difficult to get gold into the boom market, as long as they ( market players ) viewed that all these central bank sales

will suppress it any time,'' he said.

Gold prices slipped further on Thursday to $289.85 per ounce at the London fixing, a fresh low since early/mid March 1985.

``The big spikes in gold always come when the currencies are undermined,'' he said.

Just got back from the bank with 3 new $50 bills - similar to the $100's but the reverse looks truly like monopoly money! ( Well heck, it actually is ) Good pic of Grant - rather stern look on his face. Must have been copied from one of those rare pics when he was sober. Unlike the Ben, the numbering on the reverse side is different, with the 50 in the lower right hand corner much larger and in solid green, looks like same font as Milton-Bradley uses...maybe they helped do the printing?

Donald - Any idea what the estimated cash in circulation would be with the new 50's now out?

It doesn't appear to be one that knows what it is doing...or even right from wrong.

Try to answer this for me ......Why is it the governments with the most to lose from a downturn in the gold mining sector ( Australia & Canada ) have been stupid enough to allow the broadcast and rebroadcast of the fact that they sold large amounts of gold stockpiles.

Just plain stupid ...economic suicide

It's called shooting yourself in the foot disease---very prevalent in the 'great white North'.......

It's called shooting yourself in the foot disease---very prevalent in the 'great white North'.......

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971204/news/stories/iraq_7.html

How is the Bay looking today.Do you find that any one of the B&B's up in CAPE BRETON is a better value than others?

Green Potatos= buttered potato skins filled with potato,brocoli,onions,salt and hot peppers....away ta make a PIG of myself~~~~~~~~~~

How is the Bay looking today.Do you find that any one of the B&B's up in CAPE BRETON is a better value than others?

To all ( Particularly those who believe North American

Stocks will outperform RSA stocks at low gold prices )

Suggest you look at p/e ratios of stocks like ABX

before you start singing praises of their hedging

program and finds in the Andes. Before their latest

results and at a higher gold price their p/e was 60.

Now since they ARE LOSING MONEY at a higher gold price

despite hedging and much vaunted low costs. Their p/e

is infinite. Their price can drop a lot faster than you

think. Newmont and Homestake also have abnormal p/e.

Compare that with Vaal Reefs - a p/e of less than 13.

Of the north American majors - Franco Nevada looks

pretty secure, the rest are very vulnerable.

The Aussies are hard to assess as they are really

well hedged and their currency has slipped - this will

help them.

On gold, I said a few weeks ago that a break of 57.5

on the gold/silver ratio would be painful - It has been

and we are now at 54. Dont worry yet - the platinum ratio

may save us - first stop - 0.73 oz plat/per oz gold

or about 280 - next stop .69 oz per oz or 265. Lets

not break that one or we go into the twilight zone -

Fun play and very safe - take puts on Barrick and

buy calls on ASA.

No longer believe RSA mines will be rerated upwards.

Now believe North American mines will be rerated downwards

because of their historically nutty high p/e ratios. ABX

seems to run on hype and promises - not bottom line

results

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/table_imf_contribut_1.html

Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.12 A new 31 year high

XAU/Spot Ratio = .226

Oh! The blind side
blackness
niggardly ( excessively parsimonious--as well you know )
is from the Scandinavian gnikka, gniggi...to be stingy
Origins: Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, Eric Partiridge ( Put DOWN that arrow Cherokee, no no no.... p. 435

Be not gniggi with forgiveness
wise walking warrior
we all have better battles to fight
yes?

The number should not change with the new bills. They are retiring the old notes. The latest number is $490.92 billion. They have revised upward the new estimate of notes circulating overseas to $250 billion. Treasury has actually been travelling to countries that have high U.S. note usage making presentations to alert officials about the new notes and to allay fears that the old notes will become worthless.

Am disturbed to find questionable refernces to Jews on this chat line. Cease and desist with comments like "the Jews own all of US business".

Thank you so much Carl, I completely missed that. Between you and
Cousin Donald I get a great deal of quality, targeted information!
Thanks again.

http://www.treas.gov/whatsnew/newcur/

GEORGE S. COLE: Was this the selling climax that you have been waiting for?... ( I hope so! ) .......please respond!

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/brazil_moodys_1.html

We, in no way, have a stable monetary, financial or economic situation on a world-wide basis. Our ( USA ) money and markets are briefly benefitting from the bloodbath in Asia and elsewhere; but only briefly. As the remainder of the world sinks into a financial and economic coma our A.G. will do whatever he can to keep us going just a bit longer. But our house of cards is getting taller both as $'s are returned to equities, bonds and real estate AT THE SAME TIME that the rest of the world is undergoing a long term deflation of valuation, credit and credit-worthiness. Each day on in this direction will only mean added misery for the US and the rest of the world.

For whatever reason the price of gold is dropping. But this is an illusion. The US$ price of gold is dropping. That means I can buy more gold with these silly dollars. I continue to reflect on the number of countries in the 1928-9 period which fell before the US markets fell. The world was falling apart and our market was rising like a crazy thing on a spring. What must people have been thinking? Probably very much what they are thinking right at this very moment.

We have a president who in one day changes his stance from an image of ignorance and neglect to declaring a world-wide financial crisis. Money machines ( CB's ) the world over are cranking out credit at a rate that would have seemed suicidal a few months ago and are bearly able to keep these systems afloat. Entire economies are imploding. A region with billions of people, tremendous industrial capacity and completely corrupt governments, institutions and organizations is literally in a financial firestorm, being consumed as grass in a dry land fire.

Currencies are falling 20 - 50% while equities and real estate holdings are falling just as fast. The compound reduction in valuation is on the order of 35 to 75%, depending on the country in question. Brazil is next. Their market has dropped 40% and the Real supposedly is overvalued by 30%. That is a 58% reduction in valuation AT THIS POINT IN TIME ( given that the currency will depreciate to meet this figure ) .

The entire world is desperately hoping that the USA will continue to be an open market where they can sell their goods in an effort to support their respective economies. The only problem with this is that the USA can't simply buy without selling to them. Economicly the entire world will try to climb on our shoulders while we drown in a sea of red ink. How long can we export debt to people 'out there'? Will this not create a WORLD-WIDE DEBT BUBBLE? Will people who have recently experienced their local bubble burst feel confident in taking US Debt because "we are to big to fail, just trust us"? And when they own 90% of our debt and decide they don't want it any more? What will be the result of a year or two more of volatility, depreciation, bankrupcy and false confidence if the US$ as the reserve currency of the planet is destroyed in the process???

Frankly, you can have it all ( paper ) for a few days, but you will lose it all in a few hours. Physical gold and silver represent a reality which can not be depreciated, inflated, deflated or corrupted. It remains the same regardless of what happens today or tommorrow. Ask the people who live in countries which have just been destroyed if they would have held more of these 'commodities' in their portfolios. I don't care if gold drops to $10 per ounce. If it does I will sell everything I have to buy it. The drop in gold price in the face of the current world wide situation is proof positive to me that we are in a free fall and will very shortly experience catastrophy which will be very difficult to comprehend.

The drop in gold is an indicator of what is to come. The lower it goes the worst the resultant crash will be. Count on it.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971203/ibca_rates_slovenia__1.html

Can you spell C-A-P-I-T-U-L-A-T-I-O-N ??

I totally agree. I challenge Tantalus Rex to prove his statement with facts.

ABX....Barrick Gold......3.0708M
BMG....Battle Mountain...1.0193M
ECO....Echo Bay..........1.1557M
HM.....Homestake.........1.8707M
NEM....Newmont...........2.0270M
RYO....Royal Oak.........4.9964M
VGZ....Vista Gold........2.1705M

George S. Cole where the hell are ya. Has any one spotted him out there in Internetia. Peutz please give us some comments. Will silver last and stabalize gold. I heard today that the option expiry at the end of Dec portends a move back to 300-310 if test of the 285 level succeeds. Hope springs eternal.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/971204/thomson_financial_1.html

TO Allen ( USA ) : I would like to make email contact with you: vronsky@netrox.net

WHile the computer year 00 problem is legit, end of century hype is nothing new. In the 1890's, and increasing towards 1899, suicides rose, religious cults sprang up and flourished, gloom & doom analysis emerged, Jesus is coming--all this stuff took place. It's in the history books. And now we're seeing a rerun of it on this site.

What would be interesting to see is what gold did approaching 1899 and after 1900, extrapolated into 1997 dollars. ( Unless the price was fixed back then. I'm new to gold history. )

Thank you for your post the other day regarding amount of gold held by various nations.

Thank you for your post the other day regarding amount of gold held by various countries.

Thursday December 4, 4:35 pm Eastern Time

U.S. M-2 money supply rose $6.5 bln in Nov 24 week

NEW YORK, Dec 4 ( Reuters ) - U.S. M-2 money supply rose $6.5 billion in the November 24 week to $4,000.3 billion, the

Federal Reserve said.

The broader M-3 measure rose $15.4 billion to $5,306.0 billion. M-1 was up $4.8 billion to $1,061.7 billion, the Fed said.

The Fed said the four-week moving average of M-2 was $3,992.5 billion versus $3,986.6 billion in the previous week.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/u_s_m_2_money_supply_1.html

Well said at 17:31

Thank you for your volume post ...I own small positions in all mentioned except Echo & Royal.

Things could be worse.

http://biz.yahoo.com/upi/97/12/04/international_news/koreaimfm_2.html

Has anyone out there noticed that gold has a tendancy to spike up roughly six months or two quarters after M3 has spiked up. Just enough time for the money supply to trigger infaltion under normal circumstances.

PrivateInvestor

I did look back through my notes for you and something did pop out at me. Not from my notes so much as remembering the various talks. One company ( they were all tying to convince us how economically viable they were ) noted that they were in a solid financial position because they had forward sold their production 5-6 years at $460 per ounce. ( Don't know if I should give the name - its not really important anyway ) .

This information reminded me that selling forward was suppose to protect these companies from falling gold prices. What is going on here. PGU has strongly forward hedged. Gold has dropped like a rock. They should close all their mines ( like they are doing ) and just buy off of the spot market and fulfill there contracts. TVX and RYO also have aggressive hedging programs. They should be doing great. Buy spot and deliver. Of course, the spot would tend to stabilize with this action and it is not.


Finally, I posted last night about my local coin dealer ordering 50 ounces of gold coins a day. I got no responses. What I would like us to check is IF this is a national trend. Why?

Because:

50 states ( times ) 10 coin dealers per state ( times ) 50 ounces per day = 25,000 per day.


In ten days = 250, 000 ounces.

We know we can't trust the governments numbers. Let us determine if this trend is valid ( correct ) .

Please call your local coin dealer and find out how much gold coins they are ordering and what is the delay they are experiencing. Then find out how that compares to their business one year ago.


I note that I live in Silicon valley and therefore people may be buying more bullion than other parts of the state and or country. BUT using 10 dealers per state should be very conservative. Please check and prove me right or wrong.

Yesterday I posted this question regarding the Bundesbank and gold loans. I got no response so I'll try again.

An articel on Argetinian gold sales mentioned that the BBank had STARTED to loan gold. Bill Buckler said that they had been doing it FOR YEARS.

Which is correct??

Will the 35$ support level on gold hold ? If it does not, 20$ should be strong support.

Well, I went flat in gold today, convinced that the big boys can run it just as far down as they want to. I will take delivery on the December Comex contract and also bought some Dec 98 calls @ 350 and 400 strike price. The 350 calls were $250 and the $400 calls were $50. Maybe I can catch the train when it starts to leave the station ( would someone call me when they holler "All Aboard!" I will continue lurking hereabouts.

Tyler Rose

There are economic data out there that seem to be contradictory when one tries to understand if we are about to experience inflation or deflation.

a. Gold is indicating deflation, but it has the supply/demand equation manipulated.
b. Money supply rate of expansion is indicating significant inflation ahead.
c. World's debt, which is in tens of trillions is indicating a deflationary collapse.

....and so on..

I have come across an interesting analysis recently, concerning the significance of copper price as an economic indicator.
The price of copper always goes up during economic expansion and always precedes an economic contraction. Moreover, the degree of its price decline can well be correlated with the degree of the subsequent economic contraction.

The study found this uncanny behaviour going back to 1850. As an example, the copper price reached the high of 18 cents in the middle of 1929. Its decline was well under way and very steep by the time Oct'29 arrived. By the way copper price reached its GD bottom in 1933 at 4.7 c/lb.

Copper prices have been on the decline for a while now, reaching a low of 79.5 cents just recently. Remember the highs of $1.40+ ???
Anyway, the copper indicator is clearly indicating economic contraction. When the recent decline is compared to 1929 slope, it is indicating more of a depression type decline/contraction.

Maybe, just maybe, copper is confirming what gold is shouting:deflationary collapse!!

Anyone out there can point to an address with copper price history for the last couple of years???????

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/russia_cenbank_no_pl_1.html

Comex warehouse silver stocks FELL 2,193,522 oz to 125,633,853 oz

Comex warehouse gold stocks FELL 1,516 oz to 727,608 0z. Once again the drop comes from eligible stocks which now stand at 167,908 oz.

The way I see it we only have $285 more down in gold or 167,908 oz more to go in gold stocks. Which will come first?

Does anyone have Alan Ableson's email address handy. Its time some one said something to him. Mine is ardengold@msn.com

I'm running fever, I think I caught a gold. Terrible disease. I`m shivering and feel weak .My doc said take a couple of Nasdaqs and call him in the morning.

BM Frankfurt/M. - Die Deutsche Bundesbank
hat erstmals den Verleih von Goldreserven
besttigt. Spekulationen ber die Veruerung
des gelben Metalls wurden jedoch klar
dementiert. "Der Verkauf von Goldreserven ist
in der Bundesbank kein Thema." Mit dieser
eindeutigen Aussage trat die Zentralbank am
Mittwoch in Frankfurt Presseberichten
entgegen, die von mglichen Goldverkufen
berichtet hatten.

Besttigt hat die Bundesbank, da sie wie
andere Zentralbanken am Goldleihegeschft
teilnimmt. Wieviel von den insgesamt 3700
Tonnen Reservegold der Bundesrepublik
Deutschland verliehen werden, wollte die
Bundesbank allerdings nicht przisieren.

Schtzungen gehen derzeit von etwa zehn
Prozent verliehener Goldreserven aus. Bei
einem durchschnittlichen Leih-Zins von zwei
Prozent pro Jahr kann die Bundesbank einen
Ertrag von rund 70 Millionen Dollar erzielen.
Dies wird als Beitrag zur Kostendeckung fr
die teure Goldhaltung gesehen.

Edelmetall-Hndler sagten, das
Bundesbank-Gold werde vor allem von
Banken, Goldminen und Juwelieren geliehen.
Eine Goldmine kann etwa das - fr
bescheidene zwei Prozent - geliehene
Notenbankgold in Dollar umtauschen und in
ihre Gruben investieren. Die Rckgabe erfolgt
dann mit dem zwischenzeitlich gefrderten
Edelmetall.

Dealers around here ( west coast ) have claimed to be "out" of eagles on two occasions in the past two weeks, and one dealer only had a couple of coins one day. The first place, besides having a 2 to 3 day wait for a shipment to come in, told me that "with the price of gold going down, alot of people are buying, and nobody is coming in selling their coins at these prices."

Bill Buckler is correct. BB has been loaning out Golf for years.
CK back at Yahoo Biz for facts.

Yes I agree with you about the ultimate outcome. It is ironic isn't it that we expect to export our debt to other countries who may be become more bankrupt than us! It makes one wonder if any of the financial markets are worth investing in. Most of my money is in US treasuries.

However, I know this site ( and gold bugs in general ) tends to see the turning points months or years before they arrive. The sequence may not be an "instant inferno" where all paper assets are consumed. In fact the debt collapse with bank failures could occur months or years after the stock market collapse ( ie market 1929 banks 1932 or 1933 ) . My guess is that there is going to be a period of instability in the dollar when it will drop, and the price of gold will skyrocket. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to invest a portion of one's money in gold stocks and try to ride the Tsunami?

I will give the physical analogy -- the US economy and dollar financial system are like a huge fluid system with finite viscosity. There will be a period of time when the distortion of the system is still coherent and non-turbulent before the instabilities arise, and everything disappears in the deadly froth.

I do agree that the safest time to invest in gold is after the Tsunami hits the beach, but a nimble investor still might make a large profit with some percentage of his portfolio before the big event ( just as some shrewd investors did in gold stocks in 1987 ) .

I think it will go something like this: Foreign investors start bailing out of dollars, and the dollar drops 10% or so in two days. The markets at that time are stable, or dropping relatively slowly. The smart money has been buying gold and gold stocks, for about a month, with stellar profits. The stock market continues in a relatively stable fashion for approximately one to two more months, with the dollar dropping in a relatively stable fashion. Then-- the market finally crashes, taking all paper assets down with it -- including gold stocks.

I am not suggesting that everyone will want to ride the gold stock Tsunami -- but I might try a small percentage of my assets -- could double my stake in 2 months, and lose most of it in 2 months and one day if I fail to bail out at the right moment!

I think RJ would not hesitate --- the Tsunami gold surfers ride of a lifetime! I wonder what the beach looks like 400 feet up!

Gene Inger Predictions:

Dow over 8,000;
........................new highs no doubt for S&P coming;
................................................while facts haven't changed.

What about a drop into mid-December? Well, my opinion is that's still coming, but as it will be a bullish pause for the moment, barring news of shock capability. Complete Market Forecast at:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/inger120297.html

REF: "Donald__A ( @Spock. This seems to have the answer. Help anyone? ) "
Wirklich? --- Das kann nicht Wahr sein!

Arden: Good idea. Allen Abelson will be interested, if he does not already know. I have always enjoyed his editorials.

Thanx for that. Fortunately I can speak German. It says that the BBank is confirming that it is leanding gold. It says it has no intention of selling. It says that it is lending out about 10% of its gold to mining companies, jewellers and banks for 2% interest. It says it is earning about $US 70 million a year which is going into the expensive pursuit of handelling gold. If anyone's German is better than mine feel free to correct me.

Wednesday December 3, 10:38 am Eastern Time

RESEARCH ALERT - Lehman bearish on gold stocks

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Lehman Brothers said Wednesday it remained bearish on gold mining stocks and
recommended reducing positions in the sector.

-- In a research note, analyst Peter Ward said, ``We do not believe gold mining equities have fully discounted the
drastic decline in gold price which has already taken place. In addition, we believe there is a real possibility gold
could decline even lower.''

-- Said would continue to reduce positions in Amax Gold Inc ( NYSE:AU - news ) , Barrick Gold Corp
( Toronto:ABX.TO - news ) , Homestake Mining Co ( NYSE:HM - news ) , Newmont Mining Corp ( NYSE:NEM -
news ) and Placer Dome Inc ( Toronto:PDG.TO - news ) .

-- Cited Barrick as having the most attractive valuation and a very healthy financial position, but said ``unless gold
prices rebound significantly, we do not believe Barrick shares will outperform the S&P 500 over the next 12
months.''

-- Called a significant and sustainable rise in gold price unlikely over the next year.

REF: "Spock ( Bundesbank and Gold Loans ) "
The Bundesbank announced about 3-4 weeks ago that it has been transacting Gold Loans for a couple of years. BUT HAD NO INTENTION WHAT-SO-EVER TO SELL ANY GOLD!!!!!!!

Tantalus was just commenting on the obvious.

Don't think so? Better take a look at the trading volume on the NYSE next time there's a Hebrew Holiday.

So touchy!

How much worse can Gold stocks get? Most are approaching multi year lows, and lower to go. ( IMNHO )

Check out ASARCO's web site for historical copper pricing.

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 18:08
Tyler Rose ( Flat ) ID#373164:

Keep us informed on all the details. From what Arden says you may be the last big winner. I certainly hope so.

Arden, good idea. It definitely time to get visiblity on the comex stocks issue.

In my previous posts I stated that Gold would move up the Limit for a
number of days. You all should know that Gold at this point in time has
no limit up or down. It has been so for about 5 years now. But don't
expect this to last, while it may have served THEIR psychological purpose to have no floor on the Gold price, you can rest assured that
limit moves will be reintroduced just before or at the big move, much like what hapend with palladium.

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 18:08
Tyler Rose ( Flat ) ID#373164:

Keep us informed on all the details. From what Arden says you may be the last big winner. I certainly hope so.

Arden, good idea. It definitely time to get visiblity on the comex stocks issue.

Check out ASARCO's web site for historical cooper pricing.

http://www.germany-live.de/gl/Artikel/Inland/1997-05/865000420.html

Some of the old government computer systems have Operating Systems that date back to the 1970s. The homegrown financial software running on these systems will not be able to be run on current systems without thousands of hours of modifications. Could you imagine trying to run a ten year old version of Lotus 1-2-3 under Windows 95?

Dont forget the communications systems. Even the routers and hubs sold in the early 1990s will require replacement or software patches which havent been written by the suppliers yet. If the Financial systems were fixed in time, it wouldnt do anyone any good if their PCs and terminals couldnt connect.

TRY THIS: If you work in an office building, ask someone if your telephone system is Year 2000 compliant. More specifically, ask them if they have checked with the manufacturer to ensure that your PBX hardware is okay. Chances are that everyone will say Huh? Whats that?, or We dont have to worry about that....

IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY COMPANY that says their financial systems are currently ready for the year 2000, PLEASE post the companys name and address here.

Some of the old government computer systems have Operating Systems that date back to the 1970s. The homegrown financial software running on these systems will not be able to be run on current systems without thousands of hours of modifications. Could you imagine trying to run a ten year old version of Lotus 1-2-3 under Windows 95?

Dont forget the communications systems. Even the routers and hubs sold in the early 1990s will require replacement or software patches which havent been written by the suppliers yet. If the Financial systems were fixed in time, it wouldnt do anyone any good if their PCs and terminals couldnt connect.

TRY THIS: If you work in an office building, ask someone if your telephone system is Year 2000 compliant. More specifically, ask them if they have checked with the manufacturer to ensure that your PBX hardware is okay. Chances are that everyone will say Huh? Whats that?, or We dont have to worry about that....

IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY COMPANY that says their financial systems are currently ready for the year 2000, PLEASE post the companys name and address here.

This is perhaps the most comprehensive and accurate overview of the HOUSE OF ROTHSCHILDs financial activities during the last 200 years. And undoubtedly, NO ONE heretofore has ever come closer - indeed DARED - to estimating the extent of the Rothschild wealth TODAY... and what it might be up to in its traditional business of trading Treasuries and GOLD:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/markus112297.html

Big artcicle today in WSJ about Rubin's exclusive control over $40 Billion ESF fund ( Exchange Stabilization Fund ) poor cousin to the IMF but interestingly, one that Rubin can wield and use at will with no congressional approval. He currently may use $5 billion of it for Korea bailout and $3 billion for Indonesia.

Now you GoldBugs, here's the REAL irony. The ESF was established in 1934 and primarily financed by a revaluation of U.S. Gold reserves by changing revaluation of Gold's U.S. Govt. mandated price from $20.67 to $35.00 per ounce!!

Talk about manipulation....enriching Govt. through arbitrary fiat....and you guy's wanna go back on a Gold standard? I say let Gold float where it will, even if it slides to $10 per ounce! ( which will be tomorrow or so at the current rate of decline! )

http://tfc-charts.w2d.com/menu.phtml#metals

Uh Huh, and aliens control all the major institutions on earth through the Rockafeller/Rothschilds LBMA connection.

What is your problem people? I asked a question about a discrepancy between reports of BBank gold loans and I get sacrastic responses from those who think they are superior. I translated what was sent to me for anyone who didn't know better. Yes, I TOO knew that they were loaning out their gold. I just wanted to know wehter they had just started or had been doing it for years.

The politeness factor on this line is low.

Nightly Business Report was talking about the dangers of deflation hitting the stock market.

Nightly Business Report was talking about the dangers of deflation hitting the stock market just now.

OK folks, I did mention to you a few days ago ( and week ago and weeks ago and months ago ) that Gold & Gold shares had a lot further to fall, BUT I do believe that stabilization at it's support point of $280 is at hand. A few more days of down, a flattening...and we'll hover around $280 for awhile. As GSC was so fond of saying "I think this is the final washout"...

I could be wrong, but battin 800 or so to date eh? ( Buy SSC/SSRIF, today is a BUY opportunity!!!!! )

It also sounds like Japan's troubles may continue for some time.

And I suppose you believe that no one runs the show and that paper
money grows on trees.

Interesting that Russia intends to use it's giant Oil Industry co. ( AORosneft ) as collaterral for a much needed loan due to desparate need for cash inflows. Can the sale of Gold be far behind? Forward sales? Platinum forward sales???

PrivateInvestor your a nice guy ( person ) , it a pleasure having you on the board.

SDRer give it up. Think of Cherokee as a distraction. He may spell well and may be intelligent, but his posts ???? His mind is in the upper level of the highest story of largest building, but I am not sure anyone is home, the door is locked, no one has the key, and all we hear is the whistling in the canyons of his mind. for example:

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 10:02
cherokee__A ( @-------THE-DON----------- ) ID#344308:
donald_a------

highest regards oh shaker of the mighty tree of knowledge!


how, and why, is russia building deep under-ground mini-cities
to survive nuclear war when she cannot/will not pay her civil
servants? how can the imf continue with loans and bail-outs to
countries who verbally espouse co-existence and peace, but who plan and
spend all, preparing for carnage that they will instigate????

gee whizzzzz-------look at the turmoil EVERYWHERE!!!
how can anyone believe it will continue into perpetuity?
look at history. this century to be specific. how many
wars were there? determine an average for the time between
these major conflicts, and where do we now stand? what about
the cycles for the equities? where do we stand relative these
cyclical considerations?

we have just witnessed a record breaking run for stocks, and have
also endured a general peace-time era, un-precedented in history.

'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction'---a-law-of-physics------

this relegates carbon-astro-earth-anouts to cyclical events on a
regular basis. if delayed, the intensity increases. physics. nature.
regardless---of what nomer you apply....a fact is fact.

the only thing left to wonder is when. when-oh-when, not where.


cherokee!;-----friend-of-the-wind-------

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/fx_in_europe_yen_si_2.html

Read all about it---Dec. gold UP ten cents @ 288.60.....ROR: I see something floating out on the ocean ( could it...could it possibly be George S.Cole floating like a cork in me waters ) Maybe some disgruntled G'bug ( Like Gloomy Gus ) blew em away.....

No Taz, I believe that we run the show and we create the paper money as a handy instrument to trade goods and services with each other. See..I live in a democracy. ( Or Represntative Republic if you wanna pick nits ) .

We ARE the Govt. my friend. Nefarious types notwithstanding, they can only fool around so long before we catch on to em and throw the rascals out. The economy right now is in as good a shape as it's EVER been in and this is partly due to the expansion of money supply to fuel High Tech and enterprenarial industries.

Luddites would still be eating Weeds and living in caves if they had their way..as for me, I'll take the current system and economy ANY day, good with the bad, and live regressive thinking to those who would prefer perpetual worldwide depression.

What do you think of silver holding up with gold crashing. Another drawn down in stocks at Comex.

Ted your KITCO assignment, should you decide to accept, is to Find the famous Internet Economist George S. Cole. Should you decide to accept this assignment this post will self destruct in five minutes or quickerin than gold can fall 5 bucks. This assignment could be difficult and dangerous but we know you can do it. Good Luck Ted. Central signing off.

LGB:

That you are looking at Russia is smart. There are however other conclusions to be drawn from the action of the metals markets of late. Since I am heading for the train home I will leave the other interpretation to the reader as an exercise. BBL.

The problem was not the gold standard but the gold exchange standard and fractional reserve banking. Under a true gold standard and 100% banking
there would never be the need to devalue a currency in relation to gold.
So don't blame gold. Rather blame the inflationist gold exchange standard and fractional reserve banking.

Can anyone give me some information about ROYAL OAK GOLD , it went down to $1 today. Thanks

A. Goose: Don't know about your coin dealer but if I were a coin dealer and had bought/ordered coins, junk silver etc only 30 days ago or more at $310--$320 or more --I think I would have a shortage for sale at $286.

Analyst Mike Sheller asserts long-term speculators in bullion and mining stocks may be looking at the kind of opportunity right now that presents itself every several years in the heartbeat of the gold cycle. The last time he made a similar call, he was RIGHT ON THE MONEY in predicting the lows of Oil and Gas stocks in early 1994. Subsequently, hundreds of percent gains were made.

At this particular astrological moment, he says, We kind of feel the same way right now about gold and silver. He names his favorite stocks... which may rise to the stars ( pun intended ) :
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/astro120297.html

Looks like they are going to change the rules on us is the middle of the game again to encourage corporate buybacks in the last half hour of trading so "they" can ramp back up their companies stock after the marketplace has made its move.

I bet some bond traders got surprised!

I totally agree with Mr. Spock's comment regarding the politeness
factor. It seems to me that the lower the price of gold goes, the
more impolite the comments are, in general. Some appear to be more
interested in patting themselves on the back for a correct call or
an "I told ya so" than they are in providing something that might
be constructive. Has anyone performed a study on the slope of the
line identified below?

Impoliteness Factor / Gold Price

I believe a study would show that we are nearing a price bottom!

http://nt.excite.com:80/reuters/971204/08.INTERNATIONAL-KOREA.html

Using a simple trendline tool, I am disappointed to see that the close on the dow has not broken positively through the extended trendline of the peaks set back in early August and October. This can't be good for sentiment since I know I'm not the only one using this chart technique.

Every boy and girl you meet,

Is dancing to the limbo beat.

Gold's going down,down they say,

Won't be back for a nother day.

But if you like history,

Then join in and dance with with me.

Move the bar all around,

Till de bottum,she be found.

Reporting "gold will getcha... annoucing a 10% drop in Getchell Gold , Placer Dome down yada yada, Close @ 288.60 yet another new 12.5 year low"

http://www.timesofindia.com/120997/busi12.htm

ROR: I accept the mission.......damn door is jammed and only got 30 seconds to......CABOOOOOOOOOOOM~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ted check your mail. I think that I have unearned your diary. My secretary tells me that my work is as good as gold. Should I be offended? Does this market suck sewer water through a rusty straw or what? I want my money back.

Ted, that would be unearthed not unearned. Sorry.

22 days till 'it' is OVER~~~~~~~~~~

Hallelujah brother and sister goldbugs, check
out EBN the silver price is $45 US, must've been
higher cause its down $40.

http://www.ebn.co.uk/Markets/Commodities/

Bart, please get your price gizmo workin:- ) )

Royal Oak mines has several high cost mines that are all
over $300.00.

They are well managed, but at these prices they will
not be profitable.

They are opening up a new mine, and I remember that
they poured Gold for the first time just a few weeks
ago. This new mine is supposed to be a low cost
producer.

I held the company all the way from 1.50 to 5.75 and
sold. When Gold bounces back-Royal Oak will be a
winner once again.

We're on the same wave-length!! Small world ain't it~~~~~~

Firstly, I do not wish a depression or destitute of any kind on anyone.
You see you think we that because we live in what is described as a democracy that we are economically freee. It would take me too long to go into further detail suffice it to say that you have not responded to my question which was:

-does paper money grow on trees?
-and if not where does it come from?
-and Who or what gives that entity the power to create paper money?
-and who or what sets the purchasing power for all paper money worldwide?

You are correct my friend when you say we've had one of the longest
economic expansions and all is well in the US, but did you know and
this was reconfirmed last week by L. Kudlow, that since AG was
appointed by Reagan he has covertly tied the US$ to Gold, and that is the primary reason for the above noted expansion.since foreign counbtries treasuries are filled with US$ paper, and further,a number of the world paper money is pegged directly to the US$. I could go on and on but for now I await your detailed respones to the aforementioned questions.

You might want to ck out my post last night on currency gaveyards @1815

Having been a regular viewer of and occasional contributor
to the Gold Discussion Group for the past couple of years,
I would have done quite well financially if I had acted
on the majority of messages contributed by George S. Cole.

For many weeks before the Dow reached its all time high this
past August, Mr. Cole quite accurately stated that the small
cap stocks were going to rally and that gold would basically
go nowhere until the stock market started a major decline.
As I recall, he also called a top in the Dow within 100 points.

The last time I recall gold rallying, Mr. Cole assessed the rally
as a change of trend and the commencement of a gold bull market.
Quite the opposite market action ensued and a fair share of negative
feedback was directed to him at this site.

I have, for many months, mistakenly believed that gold could not
continue its non-stop plunge and have thus stayed partially invested
in gold mining shares. For the moment, it appears to be the worst
choice of my investment career.

Perhaps it is time to "cut my losses" and realize that despite many
claims that gold is CHEAP, $250 gold may be just around the corner.

Like Gerry Ford I can do TWO things @ once!!....GOLD: Futures continued a trek downward, tumbling below $290 an
ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange for the first time since
March 1985, on Argentina's announcement it had sold its four million tons
of gold in reserve.

The announcement late Tuesday renewed sentiment that central banks
around the world will sell their gold stockpiles in favor of higher returning
investments such as U.S. Treasury bonds, said analyst Bernard Savaiko at
PaineWebber Inc.

The Asia currency crisis, which has caused investors there to sell their gold
holdings amid higher interest rates, also has hastened gold's fall, Mr.
Savaiko said. "Everyone has known for a while about the lack of interest
in gold in Europe and the U.S., but Asia, which had been the key
underpinning the market, has been caving in because of their economic
problems," he said.

On the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange, gold for
February delivery fell $6 to $288.50 an ounce; March silver fell 1.8 cents
to $5.305 an ounce.

COTTON: Futures fell sharply after the Sparks Companies of Memph

"Free markets exist only in the head of Milton Friedman."
"Nothing fails like success."
"There is no such thing as a 'windfall profit' unless it's taken out
of somebody's pocket, or gained at the expense of the environment or
of future generations."

Das Kapital
"All progress in capitalist agriculture is progress in the art,
not only of robbing the laborer but of robbing the soil."

Golds true worth? How about $1500.00/oz

Don't do it----not now!

Marla Maples is on Larry King tonight~~~~~~~~~~~go gold!?!

George has his personal email url posted at the bottom of some of his articles that reside at Gold Eagle.
Anyone interested in contacting him should try that link.

Just by extending massive loans to Asian Banks, the IMF IS NOT ADDRESSING THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM: Which is simply that the borrowers cannot repay their debts! Debtors bit off more than they can chew financially.

It doesn't take a double Ph.D. in Mathematics AND Finance to understand the ludicrous folly of the Asian Banking Debacle looming on the horizon of the Land of the SETTING Sun... and the horrific ramifications which inevitably will ensue.

THIS is the LATEST analysis of the Asian Banking Domino Effect by John Kutyn -
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest/kutyn120497.html

Thanks for the info on Royal Oak. I know the Kemess mine should be up and running soon. It is suppose to put out 250,000 oz a year at $79 oz. It got something like $160million from the government of Canada as economic development money. If all goes well and gold was only $279 oz, they would make $50million year on just that mine. With 138million shares outstanding at $1 per share today, that would be one hell of a PE ratio.I am just trying to make sure all the fundamentals of the companies operations are OK. At least the government has faith in them. Thanks again.

The daily limit is $75/oz.

http://www.nymex.com/contract/gold.html

Dig Deep. I own alot of RYO and have suffered greatly. It is a victim of gold prices and mutual fund redemptions. However, it is transitioning to low cost producer. The Kemess project which is 77% complete will produce gold at about 180 per oz and with its copper credit that would be about 100 per oz. The project is not complete and the co has financed it thru debt and 160 mill from the BC govt as settlement of a lawsuit. Since the project is not complete and gold is out of favor the uncertainty factors are taking over the possibilty factors. The company has many other projects on hold which are also low cost but must await cash flow from Kemess as completion of that project in this environment is the priority. It seems that the co is getting little benefit of the doubt re Kemess because of extremely negative gold market sentiment. The Co also has a 43% interest in Asia Minerals which was the first Co, to get JV project with Chinese Govt. VALUE of Kemess if it comes on as expected is 3-4 dollars per share. The co went below 1 bc all gold stks are getting hit and they wont get credit for anything but being a high cost producer with some debt until Kemess comes on in April or Gold rises.

TO BAD WEHAD TO READ ABOUT IT FROM INDIA

Japan up 1.5%, Korea up 7.5%

The $75.00 limit up mentioned in your post is not a daily limit, rather it is a
10 minute stop gap measure. Once trading resumes that day the limit increases by 100% read thru the url you posted.

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
Check out the 'Fan Mail' piece.

When the last gold bug capitualtes, will they please turn out the lights?

As for me, this is my third repostition and fire all guns salvo. Powders running low but let'em eat CANNISTER. First two engagements July and October we kept nimble and weren't hurt much, this time they stung us though. When ammos out, its sword play and hand to hand, this position will not be given up until they pry it from my cold dead fingers!! STEADY UP THE ABX SMARTLY BOYS, READY, FIRE!

27 days or less....
the last call garnered only a 500 pt drop.....
there is more power in this one---

don genaro.....kr.........NOW......it is true.....
can you "see" the real me, can ya, can ya? the who-----the hell are you?

it's gonna be a 'special' christmas......

cherokee!;---up-linked-with-passing-neutrinos---they-know-some-sh!t!!!!!

To whom it may concern ( I know you would want to know ) :

Final post by STUDIO.R: Dec.4 @ 7:13

cool lurk post @10:10 {formal annoucement of demise )

cool lurk post @14:50 ( the truth begins to unfold )

The German Bundesbank has agreed to the lending of gold reserves for the first time.

Speculations over the sale of the yellow metal was clearly denied. The selling of gold reserves is no subject matter as far as the Bundesbank is concerned.

With this unanimous declaration, the Central Bank confronted on Wednesday,in Frankfort, press releases, which had reported possible selling of gold.

The Bundesbank, as other Central Banks, has declared it will participate in the gold lending business. How much of the 3700 tons of the reserve gold in the Federal Republic of Germany will be lent, the Bundesbank does not want to specify.

Estimates are that ten per cent of gold reserves have been lent. With an average interest rate of two per cent per annum, the Bundesbank can realize a sum of $70 million. This will be viewed as contribution to cover maintenance costs for the expensive holding of gold.

Noble metal handlers ( coin shops? ) said the Bundesbank gold would above all be borrowed by banks, gold mines and jewelers.

The noten ( paper ) bank gold that a gold mine can borrow at a modest two per cent per annum, can be exchanged into dollars and invested in the shafts ( gruben ) . The note will be paid back by the gold mined meanwhile.

As the great one quipped:

" Solvency is valuless without security, and security is impossible to achieve without solvency."

the grains----corn, beans, and oats are fixing
to stampede for the exits. time to short 'em to
the bottom, and ride 'em to the moon, in the spring!

corn broke-out of the channel today... ( down )
beans broke hard on fundy's....
oats are leadin-the-pack....

the cycles of life....up and down...in and out...

cherokee!; ) ----bud-to-the-mud-----

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/u_s_debt_futures_bre_1.html

D.A.: Would appreciate your views on the Comex warehouse situation for both silver and gold. You had indicated some time ago that 100 million oz of the comex stockpiles were "not available" at current prices leaving about 25 million left as of today for the silver markets. Does this number still hold in your view?? If it does, how do you see the endgame playing out for silver. I know you had discussed this all a while ago but it might be useful for newcomers to get your views at this stage of the game.

I am also curious how you see gold playing out for the december contract. As Arden helpfully points out there is very little physical gold left in comex warehouses. However, it is hard not to believe that the CB's or bullion banks will come forward with whatever bullion is required to maintain the current trend. Also, it is not clear how many of the current contracts will simply be rolled over.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/971204/business/stories/commodities_4.html

The German Bundesbank has agreed to the lending of gold reserves for the first time.

Speculations over the sale of the yellow metal was clearly denied. The selling of gold reserves is no subject matter as far as the Bundesbank is concerned.

With this unanimous declaration, the Central Bank confronted on Wednesday,in Frankfort, press releases, which had reported possible selling of gold.

The Bundesbank, as other Central Banks, has declared it will participate in the gold lending business. How much of the 3700 tons of the reserve gold in the Federal Republic of Germany will be lent, the Bundesbank does not want to specify.

Estimates are that ten per cent of gold reserves have been lent. With an average interest rate of two per cent per annum, the Bundesbank can realize a sum of $70 million. This will be viewed as contribution to cover maintenance costs for the expensive holding of gold.

Noble metal handlers ( coin shops? ) said the Bundesbank gold would above all be borrowed by banks, gold mines and jewelers.

The noten bank gold that a gold mine can borrow at a modest two per cent per annum, can be exchanged into dollars and invested in the shafts ( gruben ) . The note will be paid back by the gold mined meanwhile.

According to Market Vane, Inc., as of Wednesday, only 19% of investors were bullish on
gold, one of the lowest readings ever recorded for any kind of investment at any time.
This exactly marks its 19% reading from February 1985, the last major bottom for gold.

Heard a pretty credible rumor that Homestake will make a move on Echo Bay.

What's is gold doing in Asia this evening???

never mind it finally pooped up. I'm not sure it is working correctly because it shows gold up 0.15 ( joke ) .

As fast as the metal is moving it should be running the current trend out. If you invert chart it'll look similiar to the dow.

``Former Federal Reserve governor, Wayne Angell, a long time advocate of gold's value as a guide to monetary policy, was recently quoted forecasting a decline in the gold price to $222 an ounce, or roughly
the marginal cost of production,'' he said.

Ted, loved the spud recipe; will try soon. I had time for a lengthy conversation today with Freeport Mcmoran's shareholder relations dept.

My aim was to find out more about their "B" prefered shares and I was indeed suprised. Most of you may know that these shares ( needless to say at a 52 week low ) offer a yield paid quarterly of about 4.88% and are convertable in the year 2003 to dollars in the equivalent of 1/10 oz. of fine gold.The fortunate point here is that even if we find ourselves ( Americans ) with a devalued dollar by that date, for whatever the reason, you will be paid in the apropriate sum of devalued bucks as gold stands alone unaffected. With gold lets say staying even all those years up to 03 and the dollar dropong say, 20%, you would be 36 dollars insted of just 30, thus avoiding what at least I precieve as an unavoidable, eventual downturn in the value of the dollar.

Meanwhile, you can participate in the appreciation of the shares and actually have income, as well as a choice of selling at your discreation or eventual redemption. The "dividend", if you wish to call it that, is figured against the price of gold as well whereas the last five days of trading's gold price monthly isused in the calculation. Tomorrow I'll bring home my notes and spell it out for anyone who requests said particulars.

Lastly there was talk yesterday of who's the lowest of the gold producers and I put that very question to my contact. He said that it depends on how you approach the question; If Cu is your main product, then cost is about .82 cents a pound and the gold is free; a bypoduct of Cu mining. If you call us "gold miners", then we produce at about 172$ per oz. and copper drops an appropriate number as well, like I said; I need my notes.

Just a minute!....grrrrr...grrrr. geeeze this banana pudding won't go down the disposal. Just a minute!
Knock, knock, kn..
I'm coming. squeak... May I help you?
Mrs. Cool Lurk?
Yes...
My name is Dom Battipaglia. I work for the United States of America Treasury Department. I believe you are expecting me.

Oh yes...please come in and make yourself comfortable Mr. Butterpattia.
I suppose you're here for my son's gold. I would offer you some pudding but...

No thank you, maam...I must keep moving about. I must be in Buenos Aires this evening . Now if you would just direct me to the gold, I 'll dispose of it for you.

Very well. Here you are Don...may I call you "Don?"

Geeze, Ms. Lurk, we had hoped it was heavier than this. Are you sure this is all of it.

Yes sir that's all of it.

Well maam, here's your treasury bills that Mr. Greenspan promised you.

Whooaaa! Whoooaaaa, now. Mr. Greenspam promised me some of those new gold dollars...not these Tease-Bills. What's goin' on here, Donny?

"Look old lady...we know what happened here...we saw it on our spy satelites!" "But if you cooperate...I am prepared to offer a burial site at Arlington cemetary for your distinguished son's final resting spot".
Hmmmmmm. Okay...here's the gold and get the hell out of here!

Yes maam.

It seems as if the psychological luster of gold faded for our time. Exuberant Equities, Zero Inflation, Everybody is Working. The standard of living has risen throughout the world. Some older cultures still covet and revere gold, but these buyers alone cannot cause more than an insignificant rally, or even begin to stem the tide of deserters on this golden shore. The Central Bankers have been holed up on the roof for more than a year, overlooking havoc wrought with barely controlled glee. The lines of communication snapped this summer and all messages have since been passed by means of a few pieces of tattered semaphore flags. Im beginning to get the feel of those flags. I'm starting to catch the cadence; they don't just hold them, they whip them around and strike up all sorts of poses. One must pick through the not always obvious misinformation to find the truth lying underneath. Gathering intelligence this way is a dangerous, cold, and windy job and I think they are on to me. I knew I should have spent more time practicing with those damned flags! The slathering demi-gods, fearing I have discovered their nefarious plans, descend with flashing claws and dripping fangs, in a vain attempt to capture the words before they escape; there is a down from here.

Just calledthe Invesco Gold Fund $2.18 a share..could the gold stock sector be the first sector to go belly up..question who is going to buy these companies when they become worthless?

So what are you saying RJ; how do you find W. Angel's comments?

February gold up .50

http://optionsfutures.miningco.com/

In your 19:33 post you say AG has secretly tied the dollar to gold? Can this be verified?

A few weeks ago while perusing the PM charts I noticed an interesting trend in gold futures contracts. If you look at the the futures graph for the last 2 months the trend line appears to have been drawn by a ruler.
Even more interesting is the fact that gold being driven down in an extremely stable manner. Note the days when it suddenly drops how the trend line is pushed back up into the same downtrending line.

This not only suggests the obvious, that gold is being driven down, but that it is not being allowed to go down suddenly. This sort of trendline is almost mathematically impossible. Compare the last 2 months to the previous trend lines. Although the lines are downtrending there is much more volatility and uncertainty demonstrated.

I can't possibly imagine this sort of trend line occurring naturally. The price is being manipulated with computer-like precision both up and down to remain in a straight line that someone has arbitrarily drawn.

The only possible explanation for this sort of activity is a computer automatically calculating and placing short and long positions to maintain lock the trend to an artificial line.

This raises an interesting theory that those who are manipulating gold prices realize that sudden swings in price ( up or down ) create an environment which makes it very difficult to maintain a stable downtrend.

About a month ago I noticed this but I dismissed it until the trend continued further. The daily closes track down with military precision.
Comments?

RJ -- The standard of living has risen throughout the world? Which world is that? Even the 'exporting' countries are in trying times, not to mention the rest; Longer hours with less purchasing power. The world is in a funk, and will continue to be in a funk until debt based currency is a thing of the past! There will be no stability and real prosperity until then!

Schultz - I've been watching the local financial channel ( KWHY, Los Angeles ) commodity analysis and have seen the same thing on their gold chart. If I remember correctly, gold is skirting along the lower bollinger band ( I think ) based on the 50 day moving average. Absolute straight line.

BINGO

Bloomberg News ( 10 PM EST ) has spot gold up $1.00.

Ck back when AG to office and swore THE OATH to defend the US$
and you will find he stated so I had a copy of his speech but it went
something like"the gold market along with a basket of currencies and
other commodities will be a factor in tabling the intrinsic rise of monetary
supply and a barometer of sorts to gage the perception of inflationary trends" don't quote me, but I believe its pretty close, in any event, I do
have a copy of last weeks Mclauglin group aired on PBS in which
L.Kudlow ( u-Conservative ) stated himself" that one of the reasons for our
unpresedented growth is that soon after Reagan appointed AG the US$ has been tied to gold" ck with PBS for a copy of the broadcast.

My post last night at 23.18 detailed Gold holdings by CB's and you'll
plainly see that the US has by far the most Gold Reserves, officially haven't sold an oz. but are bullying others to sell. you might want to ck my post of Dec 01 at 23.39

Anybody familiar with Abcourt Mines. They appear to have 6 million oz of silver and are currently trading at twenty one cents Canadian.

Those of you who read my posts will recall my suppositions about Bundesbank selling gold this year. I reported a few months ago a 200 + metric ton sale to be announced before the end of the year. Today we find the Germans have become lessors of gold.

A tricky business, this. Apparent activities by certain agents who have been associated with central bank sales in the past can be identical whether the agents are selling or leasing. I feel pretty good about my scoop on this story but saddened that I covered so much of my gold shorts at 305 - 308. Dow back above 8K, gold a wilted flower, seems the year is ending pretty much the way I said it would way back in June

I'm still buying platinum, seems a simple call; I would buy platinum at these levels in a normal market. Imminent interruptions in supply will make the platinum play the star in the months to come.

For the many people who have e-mailed me, please do not feel slighted, I have had little time to respond. Please accept my thanks for your encouraging words and I will try to post occasionally now that this forum has settled down a bit.

Hi RJ, will be lookin'forward to your posts on the
new and improved kitco. Although now that you've
covered your shorts, not much to see when you
hike them skirts ( grin ) .
Praytell, tis silver shriven from your heart of
hearts or has it a chamber there yet?

It has been lonely And cold hanging on to that building fire-escape all this time-ALONE. My binoculars, too, have been fixed on their latest shenanigans. I thought you might FINALLY come along to 'help' me in the trenches. We shall not fight these CBr's together......we shall ( continue ) to join them!!! h M!!

the last sentence need not be stated again......but I will in case some ( goldbug ) one missed it

The slathering

demi-gods, fearing I have discovered their nefarious plans, descend with flashing

claws and dripping fangs, in a vain attempt to capture the words before they escape;

there is a down from here.

Bag 'em and stack 'em.........

away...to be among good company

exhuberant...uh huh...

btw....... he said, "there is a down from here".

My post of a little more than a week ago stated that silver was simply in a correction. Now, it is at a crossroad and we see which way it breaks! There are now enough data points on the chart to plot your own trend lines/break points. I'll leave it at that.

Gold, however, shows no sign of letting up what-so-ever. Further lows certainly look to be in the offing! But, just maybe, not for to much longer in time. Certainly not before a decent bounce can be made, for those traders amongst us.

Just a few words on some other markets. Hogs and Live cattle are now worthy of good mention. Copper is due for a bounce, as a minimum. Cocoa deserves a close watch. Platinum looks to be gearing up for a run up on the Jan contract. It may first drop near 380 on that contract first to form an inverse head-and-shoulder. Watch for break below though. Grains are weak at this time but could change their attitude with a bit of drop in price, and soon, depending on action. I also think crude and heating oil are almost ready for a bounce up.

Bryant Park is waiting in the rain.

Is this a number you just picked out of the air....or somewhere else?? And are people now to believe you or follow you to battle because you bat 800?? Where did you arrive at this number and why do you call a bottom now?? And what is with the "MAY stop it's slide". Are you not too sure?? And if so, why even call it?? And when it Blows through 280 what next??!? Will you just be Mr. 600.....500....200....etc......ugh............----------------- ( flat line )

Date: Thu Dec 04 1997 18:51

LGB2__A ( @ Gold may stop it's slide at $280 ) ID#315256:

OK folks, I did mention to you a few days ago ( and week ago and weeks ago and

months ago ) that Gold & Gold shares had a lot further to fall, BUT I do believe that

stabilization at it's support point of $280 is at hand. A few more days of down, a

flattening...and we'll hover around $280 for awhile. As GSC was so fond of saying "I

think this is the final washout"...

I could be wrong, but battin 800 or so to date eh? ( Buy SSC/SSRIF, today is a

BUY opportunity!!!!! )

I'm just a bit curious.....cause I'm curious......uh huh...

away...to ponder 800%

ullshi ( r ) t

I'll be there in the summer......I'd like the table next to the band please.....and two chilly ones

away..to bide my time playing the markets ;- )

ryantParkbound

Anybody know what the current lease rates are? And a good site to follow them?

Glenn - Can you get me ( and others ) ACCURATE Opens, Highs, Lows, Closes for the Fateful Bottom in the days of 1985. You said you had access to exact numbers. It will be VERY helpful to me. Thank you in Advance...

away...to eat and slober on the couch for a while



LGB2 you see gold flattening a @ 280. How long do you foresee it staying there before launching like a rocket?

RJ: Whats your take on Silver. Do you still think its heading down? Pdeep: I think that you can get the lease rates here on the Kitco site.

tolerant1: Abcourt is dewatering 2 old mine shafts and the 6 million I believe goes back to an estimate made in 1990-1. Also has gold reserves. Last traded at 26 cents on Nov 11 as far as I can tell. Sorry Mooney wrong channel

Thanks.

I think what Kudlow meant was that Greenspan was using gold as an indicator of when to tighten or loosen credit conditions. But I think it
was just one indicator among many Greenspan used.
If it was currently the only indicator the Fed was using, then the falling gold price would indicate excessively tight credit. Accordingly, the Fed would be now lowering the Federal Funds rate. The fact that it isn't and probably has no plans to do so in the immediate future indicates that the dollar is not linked to gold.

Every time gold crashes something follows 24hrs later. APH are you still short the SP500?

GFD:

My thoughts on the silver market are unchanged. If anything I am becoming more bullish, if that is possible. Over the last few weeks to months we have seen a destruction in commodity prices. Some of the best performers in this dismal environment have been silver and palladium. The only reason that these items have held up is because there is a physical shortage. This relative outperformance leads me to believe that once this downdraft in general commodity prices ends, we will see explosive rallies.

Most of the investment world is 100% convinced of the coming deflation and has acted upon it. There are large short positions in all the base metals, not because of current supply / demand and inventory but because of the perception that growth in 1998 is going to be dismal. Bonds have been bid up to extreme levels based again upon perception of what will be the Asian fallout rather than any realtime economic data flow. The inflationary expectations for the next 10 years have been knocked down 30% in just the last few months. People are shooting first and asking questions later.

Synchronized opinion and investment leads to high volatility and rapid reversals. I strongly believe that the central banks, in an effort to make sure that there is no melt down, will cause a melt up. If we were in the middle of a deflationary collapse, we would most likely have begun to see something in the monetary aggregates pointing to a slowdown. Instead, over the past 2 months we have seen some of the strongest money supply growth in the last 20 years. My naive way of looking at things says that the US economy was in the middle of very strong growth going into the Q3 and Q4. The biggest threat to the economy was inflation due to rising labor costs. Now we have the Asian debacle which will shave some growth off our exports but as compensation we have had a 50 basis point rally in the bond market. Credit growth seems to be responding to the bond market and not the potentialities of SE Asia.

It appears that the FED has been drawn in to taking a big gamble on inflation because they cannot afford to take the risk on worldwide financial calamity. They have lost their window of opportunity to hike rates and now must hope that exchange rate adjustments ( stronger dollar ) keep things from getting out of hand. I think it is a gamble they are destined to lose.

Thanks IDT, ( sheepish grin ) I finally found them at
http://www.kitco.com/gold.leaserates.html
I think I understand the lease rate. But what exactly does the forward rate indicate?
I notice that since 11/25, lease rates have increased about 30%.
I'm aware that short term trends are deceiving, but given the rather
drastic drop in spot prices for bullion since 11/25, might this indicate
an increased risk for the lender? If there really was a glut of the
stuff, wouldn't lease rates be going down?

Miguelo - The pleasure is mine amigo

TED - G'day mate,

Eldo

How

Are


You

puff....puff....puff....ahhhhhhhhhhh

Ya snuck in under me mate......HI!

Thursday December 4, 10:54 pm Eastern Time

Indonesian rupiah hits new low of 3,995 offshore

JAKARTA, Dec 5 ( Reuters ) - The Indonesian rupiah hit a new low of 3,995 against the dollar in Singapore and 3,985 in Jakarta in nervous trading


Dealers said Bank Indonesia was seen coming in twice into the market, first at the 3,985 and later at the 3,975 levels.

However, it failed to reverse the rupiah trend as the South Korean won tumbled, driving the Japanese yen to follow. Separately, the Malaysian ringgit
slipped to record lows and was embarking to test the 3.8 barrier.

``These are the factors you can't influence from the Indonesian side. The worry is if the rupiah breaks the 4,000 barrier, a slew of stop-loss selling will
emerge. It would be easy to reach 4,100 and may create some panic dollar buying,'' one Japanese bank dealer said.

``It's a very delicate situation. The central bank is trying to provide some support for the rupiah. But I don't know how long it can withstand offshore
pressures,'' he said, adding dollar buying emanated mainly from Singapore.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/971204/indonesian_rupiah_hi_1.html

Thankx~~~~~~~~~~was already aware of 'that' but appreciate the advice anyway!! go herbs****

After reading Steve Kaplan's Gold Mining Outlook an doing some thinking I would like to propose a question to the forum. If the banks have foreward loaned to gold mining companies at $460oz and this can be covered on the open market at todays $289oz who eats the $171 difference? Dont you go broke loaning $460 and having it repayed at $289? Also if the price drops below say 250 and a lot of mines are closed wont this have an explosive effect on the price of gold when the companies go to repay their loans and it cant be bought on the open market. Or is there enough supply of gold available to meet this demand at $289oz. Without the fiat type end of the world retoric just from a commodity view when it comes time to repay or provide the gold for delivery isn't someone gonna take a bath? My experience in the extractive industry is you can shut somthing down a heck of a lot quicker than you can start it back up. If there is demand!

Aurator -- NOT BAD! I like 'dem boats! Try a '76; The spirit of.....

Kudlow definitely said "US$ is tied to Gold" and not as you suggest.
However you make an exellent point which is really where we are today.
The last time I looked the BOJ had an equal amount of paper reserves as
the FED, and very question being argued between them is who is going to loosen monetary policy to get SEA out this mess?

I don't believe the promised IMF money is going to come easily, or at all from the Rep. congress i.e.US Taxpayer .But as soon as one of them
does loosen and believe me they will there is no way out, look for gold to break out.

Kahunna:

The central banks lend out physical gold and are repayed in physical gold. They are insensitive to the price change. The bullion banks to whom they lend the gold then lend it to mines and shortsellers. The bullion banks are also insensitive to price for they to are repayed in physical gold. The banks however may find themselves in a pickle if gold mining co's use the gains they have achieved from short selling to finance the losses they are incurring from continuing operations. Should the companies go belly up without having repayed the loan, some bullion banks are going to find themselves on line with other creditors. They will then have to go to the open market to buy gold to return to the central banks.

I faintly recall that gold & silver & maybe platinum were declared strategic metals to be held for a national emergency. I believe they can't leave the ownership or possesion of the Govt. unless congress passes a law so permitting. If my memory is correct, doesn't that mean that there is no gold available to back the dollar.

Make a shallow knife cut around entire potato #2 butter the spud #3 bake @ 400 for one hour #4 hollow out spud #5 in butter fry chopped up brocoli ,onions and hot peppers #6Forgot this ingrediant earlier ( duh ) grate some cheddar cheese #7 mix all these together with a little milk and stuff the damn potato #8 bake stuffed potatos @ 300 for 30 minutes #9 eat like a pig! go gold~~~~~~~~~