Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:02 - ID#215379)
Eurodollars are like T- bills, short term debt instruments. Like all

debt instruments, value goes down= int. goes up

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:09 - ID#344308)

mozel- - - - this time of year, the price is driven by carryover,
and s american crop condition and size.....

the loan packages have credits to allow for some foodstuff

look at what happened in '85- '87 during that deflationary period....
charts of grains.....way down.....compound it with the de- valued
curriencies......they're going down..imo......and i'm waiting.....
bring the corn and bean kings to me! we'll use the smoke- signals
on 'em.........hee..hee..heee...

mozel, enjoy your, and aragorn's contributions.......keep 'em coming!

where's the don? hard to keep- up with current events.....

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:10 - ID#344308)

eurodollars are american $$$ deposited in a european bank

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:11 - ID#401460)
I posted last night that all you have to do in this market is be a contrarian. That is what they are doing, who ever they are.

The markets have been like a yoyo, up and down being played by a master. Of course I realise that this is also the nature of markets - to react as they have been.

Time to step up to the plate - Gold today Bonds tomorrow. Bond PUTS! That has to be the next play. They have to make them worth to own again. THANKS

"No Guts No Glory" right?


John Disney__A
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:12 - ID#24140)
Zees man speaks crappe
To all ma frens at Keetco

Zees ess Crazee - I was nevair keeled in a rockyslide!

ah do not ave no brozair ! Ah deed ave won but e pass

awhay ovair 900 yearrs ago by dam.

oo ees zees fellow oo mak zees histoire ovair me.

Ah am seemply lay lowing as you say een engleesh. Ah

am wanted by zee IMF as zey try to tak may machine for

zee gold from zee infected dairt.

Ah am wiz zee wizards een zee high caves - ah am

taking zair courses een ow you say him - technique

d'analyse. Ah learn zee dreaded waves of monsieur

Elliot by dam and ah count zem so many ways eet drive

me crazee.

Eet ees wintair herre an cold my gar. Zee wizairds are

all drunk and Ah have to shovelle zee dairt and zee zherms

all day long to keep zeeze Koreans appy. Eet ees wairk

wairk wairk - no time for lift zee skairt - unless eet is

a wizairds skairt - and no zank you vairy much !!

Bill El Zebub
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:13 - ID#261352)
Is this rally based on belief that powers that be will inflate rather than deflate?
The main fear for market meltdown lies in the 3rd and 4th quarters
Is the FED and IMF inflating worldwide and some people know it?
I hope so!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:14 - ID#287277)
FT, Wed Jan 14 Asian turmoil affects multinationals

Gloomy forecasts from Scandinavian and Japanese companies yesterday showed how Asia's financial crisis is squeezing the global economy. Three Swedish- based multi- nationals said their sales in Asia were being hit while the world's largest steel company said Japan's steel industry would suffer a serious blow

BBC Tues Jan 13
Far East woes could hit exporters
The continuing financial crisis in the Far East could soon start to hit European exporters, according to a leading credit insurance company.

Cardiff- based NCM Credit Insurance said a combination of currency and debt woes and an expected slowdown in demand from the region was increasing the number of overdue debts and requests for credit term extensions.

It added that while the full extent of the crisis had not yet become clear, there had been a fall in the number of companies able to meet trade debts.

NCM insures exporters against the risk of non- payment by buyers.

Goi Ashmore, a senior economist at NCM, said: "Devaluations and depreciations of the Asian currencies will seriously affect the cost of repayments

John Disney__A
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:14 - ID#24140)
Bernatz is posing as me !!
to all

Whats going on here

Bill El Zebub
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:17 - ID#261352)
Will I treat Gold bug dissenters the same way they treated me for 6 months?
My 8 balls say YES!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:20 - ID#224149)
EB- Will sell my Platinum in Europe tonight great move .Don't need to hang around with profit like this.Gold volume today was lowest in a week maybe it's time to short again let's give the floor a chance. Away to catch the new BULL LGB.

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:20 - ID#20783)
@Tyler Rose & his 7lb TEXAS PAPERWEIGHT!!!
At this moment you have NO physical GOLD in
Your hot little hands
What you do have is much like a check ( warehouse
Receipt ) & thats whats presently worth .985 of SPOT
& furthermore in order to sell - - just the warehouse receipt.
You must go through, as a general rule, all the actions you
Just went through to obtain the receipt.

Which is:
1 ) Sell one FEB 98 GOLD
2 ) Tender warehouse receipt on first notice date
3 ) When smoke clears- - - Get paid mid- March

What you have is basically like a chain letter backed

Its very simple to UNWIND your problem and switch it
Into either Eagles or MapesWhich you can sell one at
A time or as needed WITHOUT an assay & ALL THE BS!!!

The way we see where you are headed at the moment- - - -
LOOKS like you are in high speed and headed for a WRECK!!!
Which would probably cost you 5% to possess a
( I was born & reared there so I have the rite to say! )

We prefer to have FIVE TUBES of GOLD EAGLES that
We could roll around on the floor or pitch against the curb.

Your bar weighs over SEVEN POUNDS! Hard to move
Around BUT not as bad as a 1000oz Silver COMEX Bars.

P.S. To all that are readingDONT ever buy a Gold or Silver
Bar that weighs more than 985ozas registered mails max
Shipping weight is 70lbs & its tough to find a box strong
Enough to ship it in!!!!!!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:21 - ID#31868)
MARK WEISBROT: When will reality intrude on Wall Street?
Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 The Christian Science Monitor

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review

( January 13, 1998 01:08 a.m. EST ) - It's a new year and predictions about the stock market are falling like confetti at a ticker- tape parade. Most are worth just about that much, too. With the Dow Jones industrial average up 22.6 percent for the year, and more than doubling over the last three years, everyone wants to know if the end of this unprecedented run- up in stock prices is near.

Well, not exactly everyone. In spite of the tremendous movement of personal savings into stock mutual funds over the last decade, about 60 percent of Americans still have absolutely nothing invested in the stock market. ( This figure includes all the money people have set aside in defined contribution retirement plans that are invested in stocks ) . And ownership among the remaining 40 percent is highly concentrated, with most households having little of their assets in stocks.

But the stock market's performance and prospects have important policy implications, especially since a 10- year bull market has pushed expectations beyond all rational bounds. A movement to privatize Social Security, for example - largely financed by Wall Street - is based on the idea that, in the long run, stocks will provide a higher rate of return for beneficiaries than the current system.

What can we say about the long- run prospects for stocks? While no one can predict what will happen over the next few decades, there are possibilities that can be ruled out as unlikely. One is that the stock market will show the kind of returns it's yielded in the past. In fact, even the more moderate gains that the market has averaged over the last 75 years - a real annual return of 7 percent - aren't likely to be repeated. Real return is annual total return minus inflation.

The reason is fairly simple: No one is projecting the economy to grow, over the next few decades, anywhere near as fast as it has in the past. Over the past 35 years, the economy grew at about 3.3 percent a year. For the next 35 years, it is projected to grow at about half that rate.

Bubble must burst

This means that profits can't grow, over the long run, as fast as they have in the past. And as Wall Street knows, prices of stocks must ultimately reflect the earnings of the companies they represent.

For a period of time, stock prices and earnings can be seriously out of whack: In fact, many analysts would say that's already true. Price- to- earnings ratios are currently at a near- record high of 22 to 1.

This ratio can go higher still, in anticipation of higher future earnings, allowing Wall Street's good times to roll on a while longer. But sooner or later, unless our economy undergoes some profound structural change that ups its rate of growth - something no one is predicting the speculative bubble has to burst.

Dean Baker of the Economic Policy Institute has done the calculations. Suppose, for example, that the economy were to grow as expected, and the stock market were to revert to its historic 7 percent real return. This would require, by 2015, a price- earnings ratio of 34 to 1; by 2035, 79 to 1. Clearly the bubble will burst long before this comes to pass.

And we are not talking about the record stock price increases of last three years - no one claims these will continue - but something just a fraction of these returns, which is not sustainable over the long run.

'In for the long haul'

The millions of small investors who bought the dips during the market's wild ride last October might want to think about this. "I'm in it for the long haul," was the typical statement of those who rode out the storm, following the advice of the experts. But it's the long haul that doesn't look very good right now.

From 1968- 78, the stock market lost about 45 percent of its value, and a comparable downturn in the coming decades would force a lot of people to seriously alter their retirement plans.

No one can predict when reality will intrude on Wall Street, or whether stock prices will crash, stagnate, or slowly wind down. We could see another good year, though the outlook is clouded by the Asian financial crisis, projected slower growth, and the present overvaluation of stocks.

One ominous sign is that during the recent turbulence, the market was apparently sustained by smaller investors, while some bigger players got out of stocks. The big players are more likely to have done the arithmetic described above, meaning small investors could be left holding the bag in the event of a sustained downturn.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:25 - ID#153102)
What is a eurodollar ?

Also, how and why would it be in the interest of the federalist imperialists inside the Beltway to have Europe establish another reserve currency, the EMU ?

Bill El Zebub
(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:26 - ID#261352)
Europe (some say) will lift the US in light of Asias' downturn
CNBC talking head today commented ( paraphrasing ) ... BULL S**T
it will! GO GOLD!!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:40 - ID#263153)

There was a report in the Portland Oregonian Sunday paper a few

weeks back of the sea of cargo containers piling up in the port and

air cargo transport companies returning leased aircraft, laying off

flight crews as business was trailing off daily as result of Asian

events and their effect on trade.

The local newspaper reported the closing of the last remaining

sawmill operating in Coos Bay, Oregon. The big sawmills shut down

some years back as result of owl and other rulings. This mill was a new,

high- tech, laser precision mill cutting metric post and beam timber soley

for the Japanese housing market, which doesn't use 2X4's in their

traditional style of housing. Partly on account of currency

movements, partly for depressed Japanese home sales and construction,

partly for a trend towards alternative construction methods

and materials in Japan, Weyerhauser announced official closure of

the mill today, the machinery to be dismantled and sold as

were the enormous headrigs, edgers and trimmers for handling old

growth/ancient forest/virgin timber when the big mills closed.

This new mill had been on temporary shutdown since November

until the final decision was announced today.

Apparently Weyerhauser doesn't expect the demand for metric

post and beam timbers for building single family Japanese homes

is going to pick up appreciably any time soon.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:44 - ID#238422)
@John Disney
What's going on here? People are drinking...

Some swedish guy brought 10 galoons of free Absolute
to this site, absolutely free of charge,
and you know...when free drinks are offered... nobody cares
about health problems any more, screw the doctors,
so I guess we got some party going ... in full strength LGB made a terrific statement on becoming full- time gunman- stock operator in Tokyo is arrested
... and finally everybody loves each other...


(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:45 - ID#401460)
European Union with one currency, the Euro Dollar. I think that is correct. It has been in the News a lot for the last year or so. I hope that helped, If I understood your post corectly?

Good Night, tomorrow is another day in the story of the World and Gold's role in it.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:47 - ID#287277)
Japan Times Wed 14 Jan 1998
Debate sought as banks triple figures for sour loans
Figures indicating that the nation's banks have more than triple the amount of bad loans than originally thought will help spur Diet debate on using public funds to stabilize the financial system, Finance Minister Hiroshi Mitsuzuka said Tuesday.

More pump- priming steps may be implemented
Mitsuo Horiuchi, the minister of international trade and industry, indicated Tuesday that additional pump- priming measures may be implemented to prevent a global economic crisis from originating in Japan. 98/news.html#story2

(Wed Jan 14 1998 00:54 - ID#287277)
The Euro dollar is just a USD visting overseas...
started, quite without malice aforethought, by the Russians, who- - in an
effort to keep funds in US banks from being sequestered by an irritated
US government- - moved them to London ( Narody ( sp ) Bank, if memory serves )
and started lending them out. No reserve requirements, everybody LOVED
it...and they just grew and grew and grew and ( you get the picture ) .

The 'new' to- be European currency is the Euro ( previously the Ecu )

The Euro Dollar and the Euro ( Ecu ) are not related- - and often are
not even on speaking terms :- )

Hope that helps a little

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:01 - ID#398105)
Avalon.......sorry for late reply, but our server went belly up!

An array of home pages for Australian and International exploration and
mining companies. Save them to a file, and check at will......

Aye, Haggis

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:08 - ID#411259)
..... Tyler's Gold .....
Tyler Rose

I can help you with your gold questions. Feel free to e- mail.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:10 - ID#153102)
investment in japan
The government will present on Friday a new interpretation of JR- related
bills being prepared to justify forced payment by seven group companies
to shoulder some of the 28 trillion yen debt left by the former Japanese
National Railways.

The reinterpretation has been unofficially cleared by the Cabinet
Legislation Bureau, and the Cabinet is expected to give its approval
Friday, Transport Ministry officials said.

Under the reinterpretation, forced payments cannot be regarded as
violating the firms' property rights if a law's intention is to promote public welfare

Above from japantimes. Certainly sounds like a place safe for property rights and investment.

Yen is going down.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:11 - ID#42371)
I did my bit.
Bought 23 oz gold. Go Gold!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:14 - ID#398105)
Steve in Perth...........Hardman Resources

Release Date : 10 December 1997

To : Manager Companies
Australian Stock Exchange Limited
Company Announcements Office

Contact : Ted Ellyard
Managing Director ( 08 9321 6881 )


Dear Sirs


Further to a Letter of Intent between Shell Exploration BV and Hardman
Petroleum ( Mauritania ) Pty Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Hardman
Resources NL ( "Hardman" or "the Company" ) which was signed on 20 August
1997, the parties have now signed a Joint Negotiating Agreement for the
deep water portion of Blocks 4 and 5, offshore Mauritania.

The Joint Negotiating Agreement sets out the terms and conditions for a
Shell affiliate ( "Shell" ) to earn a 70% interest in the area by funding 100% of seismic and drilling over the next two years. The Letter of Intent allowed for Shell to have a four month Option Period to complete a technical review, conduct 4,000 kilometres of seismic reprocessing
and finalise negotiations for a new Petroleum Exploration Contract
( "PEC" ) which covers only the deep water portion of Blocks 4 and 5 corresponding approximately to water depths over 300 metres, as shown on the attached map.

The Company is pleased to advise, following meetings in London and
Mauritania during September and November 1997 between representatives of Hardman, Shell and the Government of Mauritania, that the terms and financial requirements for the new PEC have been agreed by all parties and the new PEC is expected to be signed in Mauritania on 26 January 1998.

Upon the signing of the new PEC, Shell is to fund 100% of the following
work program:

Year 1 : Seismic survey of minimum expenditure USD$2.5 million.

Year 2 : Drill one exploration well ( expected cost of US$18 million ) .

Note : Shell may withdraw from the PEC after completing the Year 1 or
the Year 2 program.

Shell will also pay US$200,000 to the existing partners of Blocks 4 and
5 as part
reimbursement of past costs.

Upon completion of the earning program, Shell will earn a 70% working
interest in the
new PEC area. The interests in the other portions of the original
Contract Area would be
unchanged. The ownership would therefore be as follows:

Shallow Water AreaDeep Water Area ( new PEC ) Hardman72% 21.6% Elixir Corp8%
2.4% Fusion20% ( earning ) 6% Shell- 70% ( earning )

Hardman is continuing to evaluate the petroleum potential of the shallow
water portion of Blocks 4 and 5 and of Block 3 which contains the giant Shafr al Khanjar drilling prospect and also deep water prospects. The Company is also in discussions with several other major oil companies to fund future exploration work, including seismic and drilling in
these areas.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:15 - ID#398105)
Any OSCAR PETERSON fans out there????????

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:17 - ID#42371)
All Canucks are Oscar Peterson fans even if they haven't heard his music.

Lurker 777
(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:28 - ID#317247)
Can you still get Vienna Philharmoniker's and using $286 spot can I get them delivered for under $300.? It is always a pleasure to see your posts. You are a wealth of great information and Kitco is a better place for it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:35 - ID#398105)
Junior....................Rare Earth Metals (not oxides)

you should be able to get prices from the METAL BULLETIN in London - do a search via AltaVista............

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:37 - ID#398105)
vertigo..........aye, but I have most of his CD's

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:44 - ID#344290)
@tolerant - gold mining stock
To own mining stock ( which is paper with the inherent problems ) you may face the market meltdown if there was a serious selloff in a panic - all stock would probably get hit by the initial sell frenzy. The mine stock should later recover to a value comensurate with the profitability,etc. of that particular company ( as happened to gold stocks in 1929 ) . However, if the POG went up astronomically, government may step in and levy a tax on the mines to keep the few from getting rich from a "windfall". If you hold physical, confiscation is a real concern in USA. I am attracted to a concept I first heard of in one of Donald's posts, Central Fund of Canada - CEF on the AMEX. It is a closed end fund that holds nothing but bullion gold & silver. This fund was designed for holders of the Canadian equivalent of US 401K. Canadians can't hold bullion or coins but they can hold CEF in 401K type retirement accounts. I don't think Canada has a track record of confiscation yet.

JOE Smith
(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:46 - ID#24869)
munni munni holds more suprises
Large quantities of ELECTRIM being obtained in bulk sample- - - not sure what the significance is- - - any help

(Wed Jan 14 1998 01:57 - ID#398105)
RARE EARTHS..................are rare..........

RARE EARTHS.......some undeveloped known resources and reserves in Australia

Clifton deposit; Endurance deposit; Riverside prospect; Swains prospect; South Mount
Cameron tin field
Tasmania: Pioneer; Monarch Flats; Blue Lake; Mount Cameron;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Trigg Hill;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Umbrewarra tin field
Northern Territory;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Eastern gold fields
Western Australia;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Killi Killi prospect; Bells prospect; Redbank mine; Mosquito tungsten field; Mount Cornish prospect; Meranga mine; Lone Pine prospect; Last Hope prospect; Mount Mary prospect; Edwards Creek prospect Northern Territory;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
WIM mineral sand project
Victoria: Horsham; Drung South;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
South Australia: Oraparinna; Dunbar; Quorn; Black Hill; Calca; Ardrossan; Tantanoola; Lake MacDonnell; Williamstown; Birdwood; Penrice; Klein Point; Rapid Bay; Coffin Bay; Caroline; Parham; Dry Creek; Price; Lochiel; Whyalla; Glenshera; Mount Fitton; Lyndoch; Cowell; Mintabie; Coober Pedy; Andamooka;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Boomer prospect; Jug prospect; Native Cat prospect Queensland;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Cummins Range; - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Calzoni; Glenelg Queen; Holleton; Holleton Reward; Lookout Hill; North End Extended; Southern Cross Province;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Bald Hill; Fraser Well; Yangibana Bore;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Corkwood Yard;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Australia: Browns Range; Mount Junction; Tanami;

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:04 - ID#398105)
JOE Smith............Electrum.........argentiferous ( silver) gold

Can also contain up to 43% Rhodium, palladium, copper, iron.........

HIGHLY significant with respect to the Munni Munni project.......

Refer to AGSO Bulletin 242, Petrolgy and platinum group element geochemistry of the Archaea layered mafic - ultrmafic intrusions, ISBN 0 644 24907 2..........GREAT MAPS

Cross check on the Radio Hill nickel project.......they "forgot" to assay for silver

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:09 - ID#252127)

A fiat meltdown in the US/Europe coupled with the present Asian currency problems may require that governments not punish profits in gold, but actually subsidize miners to produce more.
Witness the big miners scooping up the little ones. We both know that the big guys never lose cause they control the economic flows.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:14 - ID#398105)

Important meetings currently taking place TODAY in Brisbane.......

Administrators in Australia are about to ask Pegasus Gold Inc ( USA ) for US$150 million ASAP............they are ROOTED.........

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:20 - ID#398105)
LGB, or should I say GBL...........hope you make a "mint"

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:21 - ID#252150)
When I was 16 years old I worked 1 summer for the Canadian Pacific Railway in Montreal. I made 1 round trip to Winnipeg every week. Across the street from Windsor Station was a little bar called the Albera lounge. We used to drop in there occasionaly & usually there was a very large black man there playing the piano. That was in 1956, just a year or 2 before Oscar Peterson started to become well known & moved on to much bigger & better things. It was a couple decades later before I really became intersted in jazz, particularly instrumentals featuring a pianist,& rediscovered Oscar. I have several of his LPs & tapes which I have'nt played for at least 5 or 6 years, since I got my CD player. I have just 1 of his CDs. Do you like Dave Brubeck?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:26 - ID#398105)
kiwi.........India has HUGE undeveloped GOLD potential.........

I have previously posted some geological issues concerning gold in India. It has has much, if not greater, potential then Western Australia. Check out the Kolar mining district as an example.

Gold to the current West Australian economy is worth $3.5 billion per annum........

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:29 - ID#257148)
Gerry Mulligan before rehab

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:29 - ID#398105)
James.......yes DB is Ok, but I have a hundred plus OP cd's

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:34 - ID#398105)
Oscar Petersen "tribute" to GOLD............


first recorded by Fats Waller in October 1938

Disc Two, Track 3
Oscar Petersen in Paris, live at the Salle Pleyel
June 25, 1996
Telarc Jazz, 20 bit cd- 83414.........

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:37 - ID#153102)
tolerant1 stocks & expropriation
FDR made it illegal to hold gold coin and bullion, but holders were given paper dollars for gold turned in. Since the new official price of gold was higher than the previous market price, there was a paper bonus. It was similar to what is going on in S Korea. I believe the same thing was legislated in Canada in the same time frame, 1933.

Governments have cut people off from a lot of PM profits in the past by suspending trading which I consider expropriation. Suspension of trading is not likely to happen to stock in gold mining companies in my opinion. But, nationalisation of gold mines could happen under any of the world's socialist governments. A gold mine would be safe in Switzerland, but I can't think of anywhere else where I would offer a guarantee against nationalisation in all circumstances. I think gold mines are reasonably safe in the US. US nationalized railways during WWI, but de- nationalized soon after. American socialists are gung ho Corporate Socialists, but not State Socialists.

And, wouldn't it be loverly if dividends were paid in product ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 02:56 - ID#249147)

This metal is starting to look really good now. Perhaps it is just following palladium but if stays here or higher for 3 more days, the funds will buy.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:01 - ID#153102)
Info on Eurodolar is quite interesting and much appreciated.

Wonder why there are not Afro dollars and Latino dollars and Asio dollars as well ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:15 - ID#22882)

The reputed 40 tonnes of gold given up in Korea in 6 days = 1.286 million ounces or 214,360 ounces per day, that is if 214,000+ people stood on line each day to gave up one ounce.
This is a logistics problem, that even my tooth fairy doesn't believe.
I believe that holders of more than 5 ounces is likely to be rare. and if existing they are not inclined to give it to a government that put them into the situation in the first place.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:31 - ID#252127)

You have one sharp tooth fairy.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:39 - ID#153111)
FDR Gold and the $35/Oz Au Myth
There is a myth that FRD gave $35/oz au in the 1930's this is false. You need to read up on this subject before you make such historically incorrect statements. James Grant's "Money of the Mind" and Ron Chernow's "House of Morgan" will give the dates and names of the laws how this confication of gold from the American People took place. FDR gave the holders of gold $20 an ounce - THEN- he devalued the gold to $35.00 an ounce. This is as a much theft from a people as any prince or pope has done in past times. Only by degree is it different

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:48 - ID#333192)
Gold potential in India
Haggis: Can you post a source for the
information concerning gold potential in India.
Currently, gold mining in India is
neglegible, if any. The 2- mile deep Kolar gold
mine ( world's deepest ) was almost totally
depleted years ago. If it is still in
operation, it may be producing a neglegible
amount of gold at very high cost. I did read
about some new discovery, but don't know where
it was or how big it was estimated to be.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 03:57 - ID#28585)
Haggis, my haggard friend, certainly the Australian voluntary administrator would be able to seize control of the Pegasus Australian subsidiary and/or Pego's Aussie assets...however, it is my understanding that they have no recourse to the main company itself. So what do they gain by seizing Mt. Todd? It's too expensive to mine given the current gold price.

Pegasus need only worry about one issue at this point: will the multi- member bank syndicate ( including only one Aussie bank ) re- negotiate the loans afforded Pegasus?

Some banks have collateralized loans while others don't....ultimately, the final determination on Pegasus' fate will depend on whether or not a consensus can be reached within the banking syndicate.

I continue to believe that it is ultimately in the banks' interests to allow Pegasus to continue as a viable entity ( particularly in the face of a rising gold price ) . Pego has many other producing ( albeit fairly high cost ) mines besides Mt. Todd in Australia. Of course, if the banks decide to pull the plug, then Pegasus International will simply declare bankruptcy and continue operations. Within a bankruptcy, the fate of the common shareholder will remain indeterminate. There is as much probability the common shareholders will survive bankruptcy as there is that they will be wiped out. It's a 50/50.

If have a little fun money, then I suggest you buy some common, roll the dice, and see what happens. You might make a quick 100% on your money within a fairly short time frame.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:00 - ID#345425)
Korean gold
Explorer: I share your skepticism.

The gold is typically in the form of rings given to children after 3 months and one year of age and other jewelry. Pure gold for the rings. I think one tael is 3.75 grams. A ring might be one or two tael. I dont think most families would have an ounce. Richer families would have many ounces, but as you say, less likely to give them up.

My guess is that there could be an initial enthusiasm for this patriotic giving, probably limited to the poor, that would die quickly. Inflated quantities heralded by those collecting it would tend to attract more, and also suggest a solidarity among the population in a time of crisis. Both these ideas would be promoted by the government, so the reported quantities probably cannot be trusted.

Koreans have not had a high regard for the trustworthiness of their government, being accustomed to types like Chun and Roh, and would not easily give up their last buck, which is what their gold represents.

It is possible they might be a little more inclined to help the new president, since he has a lot more to recommend him than his predecessors.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:06 - ID#224151)
Oscar Peterson
Aye Haggis! Here is another OP fan.Often listen to his Jazz 'round Midnight CD while scrolling thru Kitco!Plenty of Golden memories from the 50's.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:11 - ID#185448)
Hey! Obviously monsieur  was successfully squeezing the platinum market. Go Platters!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:12 - ID#28585)
In the final analysis, Pego Australia is just one of several Pego international operations...ergo, in the larger scheme of things, Pego can continue to function quite nicely without it.

Whether you realize it or not, you are just as chauvinistic about your country as the "damn Americans" you complain about all the time. You think the world revolves around Australia...that if the Aussie admininstrator shuts down Pego Australia, it is curtains for the entire company.

I sincerely doubt it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:12 - ID#328159)
Rare Earths and Hyphens
"Alfa Aesars high purity rare earth metals, alloys and compounds
constitute the REacton product line. REacton rare earths feature
extremely low impurity levels and exacting Certificates of Analysis are
issued with each REacton product. Under the REacton name, Alfa Aesar
offers a broad range of high purity rare earth materials, including
Oxides, Halides, Carbonates, Nitrates, Acetates and more."

Can't see any prices there but there's a catalogue available. bin/odc_webcat/jump.cgi?FILE= newproducts/reacton.html

If you replace the hyphen ( Kitco puts a spurious space after hyphens in URLs ) with % 2D it should work: 2Dbin/odc_webcat/jump.cgi?FILE= newproducts/reacton.html

However, % 2D doesn't work in the hostname ( e.g. ) part.

This site quotes about $7500/kg for Europium ( 1995- ish price? ) : search-

( I picked Europium as I have a few g of Europium Oxide )
Rare earths are moderate to highly toxic, and usually used for chemical analysis or engineering, so I wouldn't expect the price levels of small quantities to behave quite like bullion metals.

See also

"The meek shall inherit the Earth, but not its mineral rights." ( J. Paul Getty )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:14 - ID#328159)
The incorrigible hyphen

Doh! Kitco does it with % signs as well!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:17 - ID#28585)
I continue to urge Kitcoites to spread the pro- gold message to as many mainstream media vehicles as they can access.

With a little momentum developing in the metal, it is important to add wood to the fire.

Effective propaganda....changing the perception...these are imperative factors in getting the great gold snowball rolling.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:21 - ID#286234)
I play 'round Midnight every night. Also play Coleman Hawkins/The Hawk Relaxes every night. [Prestige/Moodsville OJCCD- 709- 2 ( MV- 15 ) ]

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:22 - ID#249147)
Korean Gold

Most press reports are suggesting that the Koreans are 'giving' the gold to the gov't. In fact they are selling the gold to the gov't with a forward payment in won. Effecitvely the gov't is stealing the citizens on the true forward rate of won, but it is still not taking the gold for free. I don't believe the size either.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:23 - ID#328159)
To Cut/Paste hyphenated URLs
If you click on the URL you can't cut, since it hyperlinks to the invalid address truncated by the Kitco spurious space after the - .

What you must do ( this works with versions of Explorer and Netscape I use ) is start the cut outside the URL part of text, then move the mouse cursor to the end of the URL. Paste this either to the browser "Address" box, or to an editor for intermediate editing. Delete the extra few characters that you've cut around the URL, and the Kitco spurious space inside the URL. Then cross your fingers and it should work.

"For NASA, space is still a high priority." ( Vice President Dan Quayle, 9/5/90 )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:36 - ID#286234)
I wrote something yesterday. Seems quiet enough to post it. Wait a minute...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:36 - ID#248180)
R/Earth Metals @ Haggis & CJS
Thank you gentlemen for the information. Just tuned back in from tea ( burp ) . All this lovely green ++ and Gold sure is sweat dessert. Hope it lasts as a sudden drop would give me bad gas and I am out of Quick Eaze.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:40 - ID#432148)
Tolerant1 Your 00:21 Wiesbrot article
Interesting article. But no one knows the future, all we can do
is guess. I disagree with him on future growth in the US economy,
as it could grow twice as fast in the next 35 years as it has the
past 35. There is a lot of entrepreural spirit out there yet. I have
never thot that greed ( as long as no one else is being hurt by it )
is a bad thing. Yes, I know, all you libs out there hate the

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:43 - ID#286234)
not about gold, not about poke her, about poker
I dont know about card clubs or casinos. We played high/low seven card stud, nickel a chip, dollar limit, two or three bumps around. I forget the exact rules and how long ago, and how many years we kept that Tuesday night game going. Other things I remember very well. We were friends. No dorks allowed. If we couldnt get five regulars together we cancelled the game. That rarely happened. Nickel a chip, dollar limit poker may not seem like real gambling. Well, poker isnt gambling. We had to bring at least twenty dollars to the table, sometimes we brought and lost more. In those days losing even twenty bucks caused an abrupt lifestyle adjustment for the rest of the week. If the stakes arent high enough poker doesnt happen. We thought about what cards might come up next and vaguely about the odds. We played past midnight, sometimes much later. No one drank more than two beers though; get sloshed get squashed. Oh, I forgot, smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette. Marlboro, Perl and Drum. Hip talk and joking all the time but under that was real life underhanded determination to kill your buddy. We used observation, wit, skill, treachery and deceit, whatever we were best at. My cold- hearted four- flushing friend, your smiling face, youre trying to bluff me out again. Ocho, kong , bullet, diamond lady luck! Low flush, ducks and tres, full boat. Dont bet on the deuce and trey...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:52 - ID#248180)
Goldbug23 @ GREED
Greed: excessive consumption of or the desire for food: Gluttony.
Excessive desire, as for wealth or power. How can this negative emotion in mankind be remotely interpreted as good? I am not a liberal by any means, ambitious yes, desire to prosper and improve myself, but it is not a greedy motivation. Greed acquires wealth and food stuff to the demise of others. Greed does not imply any fairness or room for the double win "win"- "win".

(Wed Jan 14 1998 04:58 - ID#432148)
Junior - Greed
There are a lot of definitions of greed and most have bad conotations, I grant you that. As I thot I said, greed ( when no one else is hurt by it ) . Greed can be similar to ambition which you state you have in abundance and that is certainly fine. I look upon it as a basic emotion like fear and greed, often quoted in analyzing markets :- ) Is there anything wrong with trying to make a buck in the market. Is this greed. It is at the expense in a way of someoneelse, the buyer or seller. So, I guess it is all in the way we define greed. I really should quit trying to make my point, as it is usually misunderstood.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:01 - ID#248180)
@ Sorry
Jumpy trigger finger - Sorry re the double post

JOE Smith
(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:02 - ID#184165)
Haggis__A (JOE Smith............Electrum.........argentiferous ( silver) gold)
Haggis thanks for the reference- - - yes i agree radio hill about 10 km also in layered intrusives.

The electrum was not seen in eearlier holes to 85m- - there has been over 40+ minerals found in original cores taken from munni munni- - the presence of electrum may change the nature of the silver deposit . I feel it arugues well for more interesting things at depth .rumor has it that so far there is 5 zones with approx 50,000 ton of 2% Ag- - this is incredibly rich I doubt if ther is a mine today with these grades

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:07 - ID#432148)
Junior Greed Part II
Ayn Rand called greed selfishness I believe and she tried to make a case for that being a good thing. Few understand what she was trying to say also. If you haven't read Atlas Shrugged you might enjoy it. I thot is was her best book. We are talking about emotions, and who understands emotions?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:10 - ID#248180)
@ Goldbug23 - greed
Yes, we are trying and willing to make a buck and more. But Sir, I think you demean your argument and yourself by stating that greed can be good. It is contradictory and opposes your logic. Yes, and I do agree with you know one knows the future. As for US growth next 35 years- we would do well if we could see ahead 35 hours.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:12 - ID#228283)
sam..where u been?

I've been looking for a good poker game to use my KRands for chips!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:16 - ID#432148)
Junior - Greed Part III and last
I certainly agree greed is usually bad in our society. It can however, I believe, be a positive emotion for an individual if it provides incentive to work hard, study, and thereby profit him or herself. AS LONG AS NO ONE IS HURT IN THE PROCESS. Good luck. We are disagreeing on definitions I guess.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:18 - ID#286234)
Hey! I do have to work some time. OK! Nickel a KRand? It's been a long time since I played poker. I don't if I have the killer instinct anymore.

Bill Buckler
(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:21 - ID#257234)
Roosevelt's Gold
MJPL ( 3:39 ) Absolutely correct. An act of Congress which was passed on March 9, 1933, immediately after Roosevelt was elected, gave the President the power to seize Gold. Roosevelt invoked the authority on April 5, 1933. He made it against the law to hold Gold coin, Gold certificates, or Gold bullion.

The Gold Reserve Act of January 30, 1934 removed the legal title to all Gold held by the Federal Reserve Banks and vested it in the U.S. Treasury. The next day, January 31, 1934, the Gold fix was altered from $20.67 to $35.00. Thus, in one stroke, the number of Gold dollars held by the U.S. Treasury increased from just over $4 Billion to just under $7 Billion.

In short, Roosevelt got the gold in 1933 for $20.67 per ounce. In 1934, he gave it all to the Treasury and the next day, he increased the value of the Gold by $14.33 an ounce. That's 71.65% .

The source for this info is the book: ECONOMICS AND THE PUBLIC WELFARE by Benjamin M. Anderson. This is a superb U.S. monetary history of the period between 1914 and 1946. I recommend it highly

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:22 - ID#248180)
@ Goldbug23 - Emotions?
Slick Willie's Spin Doctors understand emotions. As do Coca Cola and the like. We are chatting on a sight with mostly the converted. I do not have additional comments and have enjoyed your input. Sorry about the double "know" in my last post. I started to sound like ANOTHER - THOUGHTS
"KNOW" ( no ) ONE KNOWS". Maybe that will be a good handle "Know ONE" "KNOWS" - Good night Cats & Kittens.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:33 - ID#286234)
I probably won't have time to scroll thru the last few days posts. Did you post anything more about them yuppies?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:35 - ID#228283)
sam ...Need at least 3 more people to make it interesting...

You haven't played in a long time? I'm new at the game,myself.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:41 - ID#228283)
sam , RE: yuppies got a podiatrist whose bro is a stocker converted after I let him hold one

of my krands and an Eagle.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:41 - ID#286234)
We played when we were in our mid twenties, I'm ( ulp ) fifty now.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:44 - ID#228283)'re just a puppy! I'm much older,but probably not wiser now.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:47 - ID#286234)
Good going!

I notice lot's of people here show their gold to people. Kinda makes me twitchy. Some of my best friends don't know I'm a gggGoldbug. At least I don't think they know. They all know how many guns I have.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 05:51 - ID#286234)
lot's = a lot

Dont know why I put that apostrophe in there.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 06:01 - ID#228283)
sam and ALL..

Itseems that I can talk 'til I'm blue in the face, but until they can touch and feel real gold it doesn't register. Paper mining shares then become a reality and suddenly they ARE interested enough to LISTEN to what is said. If thats what it takes, one on one , I'll keep on keepin' on. Right now I gotta go ... so good nite from the chilly midwest.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 06:05 - ID#286234)
Come to think of it I have given gold and silver as graduation and wedding presents. Those folks were delighted. Don't let me start paranoia in you.

It's 3 am here, about time for this night owl to turn in.

Take care.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 06:17 - ID#22451)
Ponzi, Bubble, or is the burning match very short.
You will need an attention span of at least 15 minutes for this one.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 06:21 - ID#284255)
AG to Bobby
Gee whiz. This just ain't good.
We can't let those golbugs have a real rally yet.
Just imagine if all the mugs investors sold their shares and started buying gold.
Why, we'd loose our bonds.
We just got to hold em back till the markets cool off a bit.
This one's got to be easier than pumping the PREM.

OK. Lets go to it.
No, lets wait a little bit and catch a few of them golbugs first.
Teach em for sassin us.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 06:41 - ID#263153)
@squirrel your nuts
Pete ( Ponzi, Bubble, or is the burning match very short. )



(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:00 - ID#328159)
Au $290?
...One analyst said gold now had room to test the $290 level and silver
$5.95, depending on how U.S. players reacted later in the day to Asian
and European market developments...

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at the touch, nay,
you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and
full at evening." ( Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:07 - ID#328159)
Precious metals strengthen on easing of Asia fears... short covering?

"Force is all- conquering, but its victories are short- lived." ( Abraham Lincoln )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:10 - ID#289382)
Good Morning
South Africa, JSE ALL GOLD +38.3 ( +5.32% )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:12 - ID#286199)
CFTC Boosts Surveillance Of Silver- Futures Market

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission said it had increased surveillance in the silver- futures market following allegations that several market participants were manipulating prices.

Speculation in the market about a pending CFTC investigation and a possible class- action lawsuit alleging manipulation has sent prices reeling recently.

Tuesday, March silver futures bounced back sharply after falling four- consecutive sessions at the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange. The active March contract gained 21 cents, 3.84% , to
$5.685 a troy ounce.

But traders and analysts said they are continuing to monitor the possibility of regulatory intervention, keeping in mind that a prolonged investigation would diminish buying interest in the market.
"Unfortunately, the market is spooked from time to time" by reports and complaints of manipulation, said Edward Kempf, an analyst at CPM Group, a New York precious- metals consultant.

The CFTC ended days of silence about its stance on the recent price moves. In an interview, a spokesman confirmed that the commission had increased its monitoring of the market to address recent concerns.
"The commission intensifies its surveillance efforts when unusual events or activities occur such as we've seen lately in the silver markets," he said. He wouldn't comment further on the possible outcome of
the heightened supervision.

At issue in the CFTC's inquiry is whether economic fundamentals justified the 29% silver price spike over November and December, which drove the metal to an 8 1/2 - year high. When prices rose to more than
$6 an ounce in December, some market participants attributed buying interest to increased demand from jewelry consumers in India. But others contested that much of the silver purchased and transported out of
U.S. Comex warehouses was sent to private warehouses in Europe and was stored there by speculators trying to keep prices rising.

In October, Merrill Lynch analyst Ted Arnold noted in his precious- metals report that a large trading "syndicate" consisting of a large hedge fund and two aggressive bullion houses controlled or owned a large
amount of silver in London or New York. In a year- end report released last month, he said the big unknown that would dictate prices would likely be "what the so- called consortium would do and how high they will
be able to raise prices against a backdrop of falling Indian demand and rising production."

Many traders and analysts noted that Indian demand did tail off at the end of 1997 because of currency weakness in the Indian rupee and rising Comex prices.

In addition, Martin Armstrong, chairman of the Princeton Economics Institute, said earlier this week that he had been contacted by a New York lawyer, Chris Lovell, for his opinion about whether silver futures prices had been manipulated. While Mr. Armstrong said Mr. Lovell was preparing a suit seeking class- action status alleging price manipulation, Mr. Lovell declined to comment and no suit has been filed. Princeton's trading arm had a short position of about 500 contracts on the Comex
that would rise in value as silver futures fell, Mr. Armstrong said, adding that he advised taking the positions Dec. 30 because of patterns in the price behavior of silver relative to gold.

As talk of a possible class- action suit faded Tuesday, precious- metals markets were led sharply higher by gold and palladium. Gold futures rose $4.90 to $283.80 a troy ounce in heavy trading at the Comex behind heavy physical demand and reports of better- than- expected gold imports to Dubai. Palladium futures rose by the daily allowable limit of
$12 an ounce on fear that first- quarter shipments of Russian supplies could be delayed for the second consecutive year. The nearby March contract gained $12 to $236.40 a troy ounce.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:37 - ID#93232)
@I am the sleep talker.
Have yet to awake from a surreal sweat where clowns in suits pointed their guns at me only to taunt. I survived...I am gold. Beware of all relatives...they know the clowns.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:41 - ID#341214)
Speed: WSJ Article on Silver
Speed: Thanks for the WSJ article. I stated over the weekend that Mr. Armstrong was short just based on his comments. And a **message to Mr. Armstrong**: I'm just a beginner in trading but I've been following silver for 17+ years and you, sir, do not know anything about silver. If you can't stand the heat get out of the pit you big crybaby.

What the hell are they going to do if the silver/gold ratio starts approaching it's historical numbers. Jeez... I also noticed that the earlier articles said nothing about the 500 contracts that Princeton is short! Chalk one up for the WSJ for providing some useful info.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:45 - ID#364147)
Mt. Etna ready ta blow

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:55 - ID#93232)
@Haggeezzz...aye yes to Ozcar P. .......
But do you know of Oscar Moore? N.King Cole trio. Head chopper supremo.
Friday and Monday, the waitress brings the "check" for Wall Street's support binge of the last two days. Do you take Visa?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:56 - ID#426220)

TODAYS HEADLINES: Lenders are not blameless, say World Bank, IMF


Dr. Paul Hein explains the significant difference between the real devaluation of a currency versus its change in parity with the dollar. It is indeed an interesting distinction - which at least to me - not readily apparent. Dr. Hein uses the rapidly wasting away of the Indonesian rupiah as a perfect example.

Dr. Hein also blames greedy international bankers for the Asian currency chaos - - by overloading the Tiger economies with loan money that could not be put to effective and productive use to generate enough cash flow to pay on- going interest, and eventually loan amortization. Once the hapless country is unable to service burgeoning loans, the IMF is called in to administer the coup- de- grace in the form of chokingly stringent economic restrictions.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 07:58 - ID#243212)
The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine

nations, and they shall come to the Desire of all Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory", says the Lord of hosts.

For thus says the the Lord of hosts: "Once more ( it is a little while ) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land." Hag. 2:8,7,6

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:00 - ID#365216)
waz up with palladium?
What's the story with palladium? and how come my shares of
North American Palladium ( PDLCF ) are not skyrocketing?
Are there any other palladium plays out there?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:02 - ID#286199)
You suspected it, I suspected it, but the facts were not released until after silver took a $1 hit. Funny how that works. Everyone interviewed for these articles should be asked to declare their positions for the record, imho.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:08 - ID#341214)
Speed: Until such time...
Speed: Until such time that that actually happens I guess reading between the lines comes in handy, eh?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:08 - ID#287207)
Does anyone know how much gold the US Gov confiscated from private citizens during the '30s?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:21 - ID#20137)
Wednesday January 14, 4:43 am Eastern Time

Palladium leads rally in precious metals market

ZURICH, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - A bounce in Asian markets helped push precious metals prices higher in Europe on Wednesday, while palladium took
on a life of its own, rising to levels not seen since 1980 on the back of mounting supply worries.

Palladium breached the $250.00 level in morning after jumping to a five- month high in London on Tuesday following news that Almazjuvelirexport,
Russia's sole precious metals export agency, said it did not yet know when it would meet clients in Japan to discuss 1998 deliveries of platinum group

``Looking at the charts, the upward path is open. We could see $260 today,'' one market analyst said.

Gold and silver were also higher after gaining overnight. Dealers said short covering and good physical demand in the market after gold managed to
hold support at $277, holding off several attempts recently to push the metal lower.

Silver also began higher as operators began to play down earlier worries sparked on Monday by talk in New York of possible legal action against
players believed to be manipulating prices.

One analyst said gold now had room to test the $290 level and silver $5.95, depending on how U.S. players reacted later in the day to Asian and
European market developments.

PDLCF sold forward last year. But I think they will out from under that forward sale soon. I think our patience will be rewarded.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:25 - ID#243212)
For thus says the Lord of hosts:
Once more ( it is a little while ) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land;

and I will shake all nations and they shall come to the Desire of all Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory, says the Lord of hosts. The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine, says the Lord of hosts. Hag. 2.6,7,8

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:33 - ID#57232)
Mt Etna?
Ted: I know Mt Etna is making noises. Have you heard that it is about to erupt?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:43 - ID#57232)
Like your 6:21 post
sharefin: Great post! I'm sure AG has been alerted - - can't let the gold markets erupt, can we? Is it time for another gold sale announcement, as RJ predicts? Or - - perhaps some new news on that anti- silver corner lawsuit. My problem is that if they manage to keep the equity markets under control, precious metals might not really move for some time. I wonder, how much is "some time to a gold bug" Days, weeks, hours? We just need to be patient.

Now - - if Saddam decides to act up - - that's a different story alltogether. I wonder, is Saddam smart enough to short the US stock market. He was runmored to have done this during the last minicrisis. He must be smarter than he looks to survive all of those assassination attempts.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:46 - ID#356379)
EB, have you shorted this rally yet?

Or is it time to go long for the "long" haul?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:49 - ID#375108)
Mt. Etna
General; A. Goose: Like y'all I'm expecting some shaking from PDL ( CF ) and maybe even SWC today unless, at these prices, PGMs come out of the woodwork...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 08:54 - ID#254269)
Brandywine Fund 60% in cash; Today's WSJ page C1 says that Foster

Fries, manager of Brandywine, has been visiting technology companies in Asia has sold virtually all his tech stocks and moved the $9.5 Billion Fund two thirds into cash. In addition to selling tech stocks they also sold aerospace and oil service stocks that would be affected by a "flow- on" from Asia. HIs conclusion re Asia "bottom line, there are more negatives than positives". One worry, he says, is whether China will devalue its currency.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:01 - ID#424187)

Is there a URL that will give you VOLUMN figurers as to the size of trade.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:04 - ID#254269)
More WSJ articles;

1. Inflation rose 1.7% in 1997 ( Page A2 ) .

2.IRS Report says Agency beacame overzalous ( Page A2 ) .

3. South Korean Debt Package is being sweetened ( Page A15 ) .

4. Friends in high places worry firms in Indonesia ( Page A15 ) .

5.Suharto vows to co- operate with IMF ( Page A16 ) .

6. Indonesian Turmoil worries Japan, Korea ( Lenders from both nations have major exposure ) ( Page A16 ) .

7. The Road Back from Devaluation ( Page A18 ) . Re Asia.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:06 - ID#364147)
You should have mail~~~~~~~~~~

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:06 - ID#243180)
Barb Hughes @ 00:20
Barb, you wrote to Tyler Rose regarding his physical delivery:

"Its very simple to UNWIND your problem and switch it Into either Eagles or MapesWhich you can sell one at A time or as needed WITHOUT an assay & ALL THE BS!!! "

Specifically, HOW IS THIS DONE ???


(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:10 - ID#254269)
A Bailout Lession; One Guy ruins it for everybody ; Op-ed commentary by

Holman Jenkins, Jr. WSJ Page A19. Interesting article. If anyone subscribes to WSJ electronically, can you please post the url ? TIA.
This artilcle is how the "risk" is being taken out of international banking and how folk like Soros want to take out more risk by creating new regulatory authorities. Excuse any typos.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:10 - ID#364147)
JTF...........................and I can feel the rumble here
The 'word' on the streets of Cape Breton is that Etna is ready ta blow and these folks are rarely wrong....Actually I heard some 'talkin head' on the boob- tube say it was acting like it would ERUPT soon ( CNN I think ) ...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:12 - ID#251268)
First time joining the gang,although have been taking advantage of this great site for a while.What happened in Asia markets last?Also does anyone know if Corn and wheat were locked limit up on the cclose yesterday?Aloha from Hi. beautiful morning4.08am and th
e moon is bright,looking for gold to come with the sun.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:12 - ID#243180)
I'm not sure "So- Damn- Insane" is an integral part of the picture since someone has decided to start a "love- in" with Iran. Iraq and Iran have a slight problem with each other ..

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:14 - ID#364147)
Selby..................keep asking that ? and someday someone will----------
ANSWER YOU!! I don't know the answer! ( and I thought I knew everything ) ...Looks like the Can. Dollar is gettin a good pop this mornin and hopefully that's the start of a 'new trend' as the 'trend is yer friend' ( sometimes ) .....

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:19 - ID#344308)

jman- - - - - geetings newbie- - - - -

none of the grains closed limit- up....the current contracts
of corn and wheat had short lived limit moves.......

export numbers out thur......

- - - - - - don't be afraid of the lawnmower blade- - - the cut is clean....


(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:26 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Jman - - Corn seems to have closed limit up. Wheat, not even close. Soybeans even lower; only up a few cents. Important day here for corn as it is at an important decending trend line with no room to spare. And even that breakage need not guarantee anything. Just would be a temporary step in the correct direction is all. Just have to watch. Wheat ALMOST made it to the same line yesterday, then dropped off. Today? Maybe?

I don't believe this run up in gold will go for much more than Thursday and into Friday. Watch for important resistance areas that don't get broken and support that then looks shaky.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:26 - ID#375108)
@Have we seen gold's bottom???
Ted: Gotcha, and one flyin right back to Mira Bay...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:27 - ID#344308)
@----gravitational-forces-on-earth------discussed-and-archived----on-kitco-----last year....

ted- -

don't be fooled by the c$.....europe's curriencies are
in line for a hit, as well as all north american represenatives....

where is this volcano located? sure is coincidental to have
so many signal from so many places - - - - - - vulcan cometh...

the recent postings regarding LUNAr gravitational forces in
feb being the strongest in 20 years......and the possibility
of an increase in temblors.........i submit it will be vulcan
who comes- a- callin- - - - - - - - the cycle dictates all......


(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:28 - ID#288157)
JTF--Good morning
BBC Iraqi update...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:28 - ID#237164)
An obtuse, erudite, predictive comment by Lyon, perhapse ...
In his comments about behavior, markets, etc ... It brought
to my mind the behavior of Indonesian leadership and the IMF,
as reported by the press ... their inaction after the IMF
guarantees ... Lyon is a good read ...

Following are his concluding remarks:

"In concluding this essay I want to mention one more thing that
relates to the question of the "link" between financial crises
and economic crises. When Minsky was writing most of his articles
on the "financial instability hypothesis" most economists, while
not ignorant of what is called "moral hazard," or the tendency of
individuals to change their behavior when "insured" against
failure, and that this changed behavior might be against the
public interest was overlooked with the concern that a financial
crisis might result in a depression and the loss of wages for
large numbers of people.

"The hard truth, however, is that a perfectly honest, hard- working
person can be in the employ of an individual who is financing
everything, including his employee's wages, in ways that are not
justified by his prospective income, and when the bubble bursts
is it right to bail out the profligate just so the employee can
retain their job? I will not pursue this very difficult moral
question here.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:30 - ID#254269)
Kins and Queens around the world. This is not about gold but still quite
interesting. Last Sunday, my local paper ( Dallas Morning News ) ran one of those 3 page feature typse articles about the different monarchies around the world. It list 28 of them from the King of Bahrain down to the King of Western Samoa and gives a brief profile of each one and how much political power they have, net worth etc. Yes, it includes the Sultan of Brunei. ( who has a net worth of $38 B. and the Emir of Kuwait who has a net worht of $15 B. I meant to post this on Monday but had computer problems. Sorry guys, it does not list the Sultan's telephone number.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:33 - ID#254269)
Meant to say Kings around the world.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:40 - ID#251268)
Thanks for the info ( sorry for the sloppy typo's will drink some coffe and work on it ) I saw a clip on the tube of the people in Indo. loading up at the stores and wonder if that mentality is hitting the buyers over there?Better grain in the barn and gold in the pocket than wheelbarrows of paper?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:43 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Jman - - Some would say that.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:43 - ID#258427)
Quote.Yahoo is "losing it" this morning ... y2k problems?...Earthquakes?
or just dam* computers...oh...Go Gold...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:45 - ID#254269)
@ farfel and Haggis; Re Pegasus and Mt. Todd' I scanned some of your earlier posts and in
farfels' 3.57 he asks "what the aussie administrators will achieve by foreclosing on Mt. Todd because of the high cost structure there ?
I have been out of Australia for some time but think I am correct when I say that bankruptcy laws in Australia are different to those in the US in
that when a company goes bankrupt in Australia, the liquidators are brought in to "wind up the affairs of the cmpany", i.e. there are no
prolonged "workout" phases like in the US. Therefore, the banks may have NO CHOICE but to take it over. From what I have read over the last couple of years, there may be more of a willngness on the part of creditors to "try to restructure things" but I don't believe there is ANY legal way that a debtor can voluntarly choose the form of his bankruptcy like in the US. Perhaps Haggis knows something about the current bankruptcy laws and can bring us up to date.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:47 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Cherokkee - - If 12 cent isn't limit on CBOT corn, I don't know what is.

Spud Master
(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:48 - ID#273112)
This is WELL worth re-reading; it reveals IMF SOS manipulation of public perception
Date: Wed Jan 14 1998 03:15
Explorer ( YEH ) ID#22882:

The reputed 40 tonnes of gold given up in Korea in 6 days = 1.286 million ounces or 214,360 ounces per day,
that is if 214,000+ people stood on line each day to gave up one ounce.
This is a logistics problem, that even my tooth fairy doesn't believe.
I believe that holders of more than 5 ounces is likely to be rare. and if existing they are not inclined to give it to a
government that put them into the situation in the first place.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:50 - ID#254269)
@ jman; If coffee cured all typing errors, my posts would be flawless.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 09:51 - ID#344308)

eldo......i was seeing 10.5.........either way it was a
hell of a move.....too bad for the bulls it will be
temporary...........grains........and puts......
soon to be congregating as birds of a feather....

looks like silver is going to swoon and take gold
with day......

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:02 - ID#348286)
@BARRICK ABX - All of a sudden they like Golds?
Wednesday January 14, 9:23 am Eastern Time

RESEARCH ALERT- Stone Energy, Barrick Gold

NEW YORK, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - Morgan Stanley on Wednesday said it raised its rating on shares of Stone Energy Corp ( NYSE:SGY - news ) and Barrick Gold Corp ( NYSE:ABX - news; Toronto:ABX.TO - news ) to outperform from neutral.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:09 - ID#257148)
My learnd friends across the ditch...come in...the meter is running...


my 2 caveats
1 I am not qualified in Australia, but NZ
2 I am insomniac ( 4:00 am )

But as far as I know the law has essential similarities Aus & NZ and both are very different from your bankruptcy laws ( which seem incomprehensible to us )

Debt instruments ( Mortgage/ Lease etc ) will typically contain definitions of liquidity, or corporate viability, if these ratios are breached, or if a company cannot pay its debts by some other definition, the creditor holding the mortgage ( say ) will exercise a term of the Mortgage and "Call in the receivers"
The receivers take over the management of the company, ( the shareholders and directors are sidelined ) make assesment of its viability and act to maximise the return of the Loan to the borrower. This will usually mean selling the assets to the highest bidder. The secured creditors ( holders of the mortgages etc ) are paid out after wages and bankruptcy fees ( to the receivers & lawyers ) and tax. but before unsecured creditors ( trade debts ) and shareholders.

I know that some details are different in Aus, they will no doubt be corrected later.

I think I just sent myself to sleep, as quickly as I did you, dear reader..

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:10 - ID#426220)

What If the Dollar Just Keeps Rising?

Nationally syndicated market analyst, Rick Ackerman, shares his insights about the adverse strength of the greenback.

Business couldn't be better, consumers are as confident as they've been in years, the dollar is king and interest rates are bouncing near multi- year lows.

Not much for U.S. investors to worry about, right?

THINK AGAIN. That strong dollar, of all things, is threatening to
blight the rosy picture by destabilizing financial markets and
constricting global trade. Moreover, there is no apparent way to

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:13 - ID#28593)
A. Goose, Take a look at China's "Trade Diary"...
South China Morning Post- - China Business Review 19980107170051010& G_Filename= tradia

Frankly, I'm impressed.

John Disney__A
(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:19 - ID#24140)
Restructuring at Harmony

Local broker announced today that Harmony has

restuctured their operations and will reduce costs

to 250$/oz level. They will weather the current gold

storm and be able to stay viable even at current gold prices

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:26 - ID#284255)
Gold being knocked off its perch
Looks like AG is on the job early with AU.

Avid chatter
SOROS was on dj wire this am, pre- release of interview with german weekly die zeit..."situation in hk and china extraordinarily precarious"..."govt change needed to resolve indonesia crisis"..."optimistic on south korea recovery"

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:28 - ID#401460)
Feb. Gold
- 13
- 0.5

We were talking about this last night - contrarian every time they are making billions on these moves - just follow them.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:31 - ID#401460)
"govt change needed to resolve indonesia crisis". Sorros

How do they do that - overthrow the government?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:32 - ID#257148)
And was Jerusalem, built here, among these dark satanic mills?
Any forestry analysts out there?

2bro2b post this am re mill closure in Oregon, mine a couple of days ago, in North Island NZ. The first high tech supply special timber to Japan, Tangiwai sawn timber to korea.

Any other data and historical guides, how much of a leading/lagging indicator as new house building dries up around Asia...

Songs of Innocence and Experience

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:36 - ID#20137)
Updated as of: Jan 14, 1998 @ 10:32 am ET

GC G8 Feb. Gold 2836 - 2 - 0.1 2873 2833 46.0K
SI H8 March Silver 5625 - 60 - 1.1 5810 5595 16.4K
HG H8 March High Grade Copper 7830 +140 +1.8 7880 7690 12.4K
PL J8 April Platinum 3740 +18 +0.5 3790 3722 3.33K
PA H8 March Palladium 23780 +140 +0.6 24800 23700 1.01K bin/htx.exe/dbcfiles/curcommt.html?SOURCE= core/dbc has gc8g at 283.8 at 10:07am.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:40 - ID#401460)
As you can see I have Gold prices that range from 277 to 287.
Kitco nose diving, and
My yahoo quotes are down and others appear to be not current.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:42 - ID#254269)
Asian crisis fallout continues;

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:42 - ID#284255)
I don't really know.
Maybe that is why they are cutting down on the army.
They'll all become pacifists and Soharto will give in.

Or they could put him on the pension,
And give him a big super payout.
At his age he should be shooting the breeze with his pals in comfort.

Just like all the other peers of yesteryear.
It seems like you only come to true power,
Just before senility creeps in from behind.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:43 - ID#401460)
Gold 283.40
XAU 67.71

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:45 - ID#403195)
U.S. government confiscation at $20.67

Just a minute, please, the value of gold was /not/ raised.

Citzens in that country saw their government take their gold away from them at $20.67 and give them cellulose in return. No sooner had /that/ sin been committed than the cellulose that had been forced on them was devalued by a huge percentage. /That/ was the bag the citizens there were left holding, a deflated paper one.

This is a /gold/ list.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:45 - ID#251268)
kitco has been on the money today,realitive to the spot and futures price spread ( according to my brokers quoteline )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:49 - ID#401460)
Cohen, secretary of defence arrived there, with no comment, the hight before last.

A friend of mine is planning on going into business over there, and he says that guy and his nepotism is ruining the country.

He doesn't know wether they can change or not. It is amazing how positive everyone was yesterday now they are not so sure.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:54 - ID#401460)
@ 10:52
Feb. Gold
- 6
- 0.2
March Silver
- 55
- 1.0
March High Grade Copper

(Wed Jan 14 1998 10:59 - ID#254269)
@ aurator; where are you in N.Z . ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:01 - ID#284255)
Something in the wind
This relief rally - for what else could we call it.
Seems over the top.

It was only this week that Peregrine went down.
There are rumours of two Japanes banks in trouble.
We have had another downgrading of a Japanese bank.
Japanese bad debt just gone up 300% due to new accounting?
90% + Indonesian companies bankrupt.
European banks starting to admit to asian problems.
Plus so much more.

Seems to me like the cake is only half baked.

If you knew next weeks fundamentals were to be attrocious.
What better to do than to say all is right.
Everything was overdone.
Pump up the premium and bouy up the indices.
Get those indices up 15% .

So next week they don't fall through the floor so quick.

Reminds me of action in the futures.
Big moves, all happening to quick.
I am always suspicious of large quick moves with no fundamentals backing them up.

Seems like everyone is getting into the game of whipsaw.

Maybe a few of those boys who went over to Asia.
Where mates of Bobby's, who'd done time in the pits.

The rate at which volatility is climbing in all markets.
Make me think towards what is coming.

A solid recovery should be slow and steady.
Not whipsawed around.

I smell something in the wind.

Markets are in tight lock- step.
Volatility's going off the screen.
Something is around the corner.
Somewhere we've never been.

Commodities are going crazy.
Bonds seem to act the same.
Perhaps I should start to wonder.
What they are playing with this game.

Somethings afoot.
And they ain't tellin.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:07 - ID#254269)
@ sharefin / somethings' in the wind; re my 8.54 about Brandywine Fund;
when WSJ interviewed Fries, he was in Tokyo at the time.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:08 - ID#280245)

Holding in mind Corrigans List of Five Risks ( to the settlement system ) - -

and reviewing Natural Disasters

What happens to the Daylight Overdraft ( plane loads of checks that can neither take- off  nor land, e.g. Portlands airport has been closed, Montreals problems, and others )

Jim Grant, in Minding Mr. Market, p. 323 notes that there are other instances where settlement appears, at least in part, to be in commodities or barter...

Are the wretches using "our" gold?
As Tolerant1 would say, "Hmmmm..."

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:10 - ID#401460)
sharefin (Something in the wind)
YES, I agree, something is going on. The commodities are really active?

Are BOND PUTS to be considered now?


(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:12 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Whats the matter? People getting cold feet already, just because gold dropped to fill the morning gap and to do a bit of testing? BFD! And silver is/was just checking over the 5.60 support area. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If this stuff is done already, they are going WAY lower!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:16 - ID#57232)
Cape Bretoner word on the street? Mt Etna to erupt?
Ted: Just how far away are you from Mt Etna? I need to get out the globe and look! Why are the Cape Bretoners so worried? I wonder, do the native Cape Bretons see a correlation between increased tidal activity and earthquakes/volcanoes - - like the native Hawaiians?

By the way - - your new location is very near the Bay of Fundy isn't it? You ought to go down to one of the Bay docks and watch the tide go out - - something like 15 meters, with a Spring tide peak in Feb. My tide program says you should have an especially good show on Feb 28. ( Solar eclipse Feb 26 - - rare alignment of Moon and Sun ) . I gather the Mainers don't say much, even when some unsuspecting visitor tightly moors his boat up to the dock. If the standing joke goes the way I heard it, they just watch the tide go out. I wonder - - can a 40 Yawl hang 20 feet up on its cleats? Must be quite a sight. And what happens to one of those 6 foot draft sailboats resting on their side when the tide comes back in? Does the bay water go down the hatch? How many deep keel sailboats are designed for bad timing in the bay of Fundy?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:21 - ID#401460)
More bank failuress in Asia.
CRB 226.98
XAU 67.96
30yr 5.71%
Gold 284.20

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:22 - ID#333232)

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:37 - ID#288157) EarlGrey in Sevres cup! Most

My ISP's lead story ( for you know who )
Change Expected in Indonesia, Markets Rally
JAKARTA, INDONESIA, 14- JAN- 98:International Monetary Fund ( IMF )
Managing Director Michel Camdessus points at journalists upon his arrival at his hotel in Jakarta on January 14. Camdessus said he was hopeful for a solid agreement with Indonesia on reforms to rescue the country's faltering economy. [Photo by Dylan Martinez, Reuters]

P.S. He ( Camdessus ) is not looking particularly well...:- )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:38 - ID#258427)
@JTF ...Bay of Fundy
I've seen those tides...the 40 foot yawls use loooooooooong spring lines.
The tital bore is a sight to see...

oh...go gold

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:42 - ID#258427)
tital = tidal

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:42 - ID#427357)

XAU is UP over 11% including yesterday's rise. Right now the Gold & Silver Index is UP 1.65 points to 68.16. Lookin' good. To watch the cliumb vs the Paper Indices, check out the Intra- Day charts.

To view, just copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:42 - ID#401460)
The Federal Reserve
6pak or someone steered me to this site a few months ago, and I really appreciated the information. It answered a lot of questions for me. I was e- mailing it to a friend, when I thought I would repost it at Kitco.

Maybe ROR and others can gain insight from the information presented there.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:43 - ID#57232)
Interesting comments about fluctuating prices
All: D.A. mentioned a few days ago that there was extreme volatility in the currencies of some SEAsian countries during the recent turmoil.

I wonder - - commodities are often priced in the US dollar like gold and oil - - could there be some turmoil today in the dollar? Things get alot more complicated if there are two sources of uncertainty - - the underlying commodity, and the currency used to price it.

Please beware that if there is turmoil in the dollar the Fed will do everything in its power to protect the dollar, including selling gold, IMHO.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:44 - ID#284255)
Whats going on?
Don't know about bonds.
All I see is that big money is starting to move around agressively.
The move in copper intrigues me.
It just seems strange when there are large fluctuations for no reason.
I don't think the trend has changed yet, just positioning taking place.
Real assets should become valuable when paper fails.
Seems as though smart money is moving around now.

The big boys getting prepared?
Shame I have a suspicious mind.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:44 - ID#333447)
Retearivs re yours @ 10:45
You are correct that the do;;ar was devalued. Prior to '33 it containe 1/20.67 of an ounce. Post Gold Reserve Act it contained 1/35 of an ounce. Without going into the metaphysic of money, it is easy to see that 1/20.67 is more gold than 1/35. Usually the value of gold is expressed in the appropriate currency. So, in this case it took more dollars to puschase the same amount of gold. The big trouble is this trade was denied Americans at home in the Act. The foreigners were glad to trade this way. One concept that might help is this, from beyond gold was denominated in units of weight and any other money was denominated in
units of account. Croesus was the first to confuse them and that's where the blivits came in. Good hunting.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:47 - ID#401460)
IMHO, Clinton and all of the troops are showing the stress. Those 24hr plane flights are a killer.
Talk about "Jet Lag" and if any of them drink - well, we may be in trouble for sure.

Gold 284.50


(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:49 - ID#424345)
Something In The Wind
Sharefin: I too admire your 11:01 post. Am also wondering about bond puts but maybe not quite yet since there may be more "flight to quality" before the fireworks starts... Counterintuitive ( to a bug that is ) trends seem to have too much power behind them...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:50 - ID#153102)
sharefin et al
A bankruptcy is a black hole. Other financial masses in the legal vicinity are either pulled into it to make the black hole bigger or if large enough, retain their independent orbit.

Last night I posted the japantimes report on the 28 trillion yen of debt from JNR which is still undigested. The banks have revealed 78 trillion yen of other nonperforming debt. The bankruptcy reports from S Korea, Thailand, Malayasia, and Indonesia are staggering. Peregrine is belly up in Hong Kong. Asia is a growing black hole.

The Japanese politicians have vowed Japan will not be the beginning of another world deflation. They are going to print money to fill the black hole. Japan is a candidate country for hyper- inflation. Short the yen.

The blokes and chaps are up to their ears in Asia. The British Pound is going to become vulnerable as black holes begin to appear in the City of London. Short the pound.

There is nothing concerted going on. You are watching the milling of an uneasy herd, the sort of increasing oscillation of will which precedes a stampede.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:51 - ID#333447)
Retearivs, my previous
Please pardon typos.Also it should read.."from beyond memory"
Beest reference is U.S. Code, annotated- refer to Monetary Legislation.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:53 - ID#269409)
@ RJ....Proof Coins...why would someone buy them?
RJ, you're a master at metals analysis but you aren't "gettin it" when it comes to Numismatics. The reason the posts of yesterday stated that some are buying massive quantities of "Proof" coins, may be many.

1 ) Gold Proofs trade at a modest premium over Gold's price ( currently about $125 ) . They track the POG, same as bullion, however, in a sustained bull market the premiums will rise on these collectorr coins. Conversely they resist falling too far in a down market due to a Numismatic floor, and resistance to "whipsaw" metals moves.

2 ) The "Proofs" would likely be exempt if Feds ever decided on a Gold confiscation move a la 1933. They were also exempted then. Extra security.

3 ) Tax legislation. The new Capital gains tax law which just took effect, allows collector coins in IRA's and such, beyond just the "AE's" that were allowed in th past. However, the collector coins must be .999 pure. PLatinum Proofs qualify, however the bullion coins would as well.

There is also the issue of privacy. Coin dealers are not required to report Numismatic coin purchases below the $5,000 threshold. I believe that bullion coin purcahses, are reprotable, though I could be mistaken on that. I do know there are some differences in reporting requirements between bullion and Numismatic coins.

4 ) Those who trade and understand the Numismatics market well, can sometimes make a killing in certain types of Proofs. The Platinum AE Proof sets released last summer for example, have been steadily climbing in value, and now trade at approx. 20% over their issue price wholesale, far above that, retail. Not bad for 7 months. Had someone dumped a quarter mil into those when they were released by the U.S. mint, they would have done quite well, particularly when you consider that "bullion" Platinum has taken a beating.

Even in bullion Platinum, we sometimes have Numismatic premiums that reward an astute buyer. As you no doubt are aware, the 1997 Half Ounce Platinum AE's now trade far above their normal premiums due to the unexpectedly low mintages. ( Unexpected that is, if you don't pay attention to Numismatic considerations, some of us purcahsed a bunch of these when it became clear that the mint would not be minting more than 17,000 or so )

Botanic Proof set was another case in point. Went up 900% overnight when released last May, and has settled back to about 600% gain. Of course in that case, with a mintage of 25,000, it was obvious the demand would be there and the mint limited purchasers to 5 sets.

I could give more examples, but the bottom line is that there are many cases where Numismatic investors purchase Proofs and outperform bullion coins with them. If they understand the market well.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:53 - ID#401460)
CRB 226.80
XAU 67.94
Gold 284.30
30yr 5.704% steady?

More problems in Asia US markets turning down. Another Crash tonight?


(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:56 - ID#31868)
Mozel - Crunch thanks for the input.

Goldbug23 - I agree, nobody can tell the future, hell, people look at the past and argue about what happened.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:59 - ID#243180)
LGB stated:

"There is also the issue of privacy. Coin dealers are not required to report Numismatic coin purchases below the $5,000 threshold. I believe that bullion coin purcahses, are reprotable, though I could be mistaken on that. I do know there are some differences in reporting requirements between bullion and Numismatic coins."

Are there reporting procedures performed for purchasing Eagles. I go- out- of- my- way to keep purchases to several thousand dollars at- a- time to avoid this. ( Not that I would submit to confiscation anyway ... )


(Wed Jan 14 1998 11:59 - ID#401460)
GFD (Something In The Wind)
Some of the "Flight to Quality" has shifted it appears to the XAU and Gold yesterday and last night.

I am trying to buy Bond puts any ideas. My Broker is out of town again. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Index puts or what?


(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:00 - ID#22956)
Toot Toot!!
That was EB's horn a tooting...

I love it when TWO calls come to pass. Gold's Wedgie bounce, and my beloved Plat Pennant bounce...and bounce it did. I thought the breakout went the other way then I had to go to work. Too busy to call the broker before he went home and meeting took me into the 10:00pm. Needless to say, when I got home I had a 'small' celebration. Ya- Hoo...ohmy!

Irvine- Boy - Thanks for the 'step' yesterday. You were probably the one who brought it down a couple bucks before squeezing it where it hurts....just to play around, eh? Well, nice joke....yuk, yuk. Now, let us resume our climb to lofty heights...uh huh!

Gold - Well, the rally did occur ( bull wedgie ) . Gold bottom in?? hmmmmmmmm.....probably not. I will w/w on this new rally and watch for more patterns.......charts don't lie, right??

Silver - as I said before......7 bucks is a dream..... ( ugh ) ....we'll see 4 before seven.

Cherokee - Corn broke out from a 'bull flag' and solid Funnymentals.....check the charts. OUCH...

Ted - how 'bout those nix????? yuk, yuk... git outta the cape, NOW!!

Poorboys - good job on the Plat.....did you sell too early....I wonder.

lgb - a few St's?? You said a few dozen.....more incon.....oh forget it, I could get carpel tunnel ( sp? ) because of you........buying gold now?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......I will alert the Asian continent, they will want to know. This could start a stampede..........

Cat - hey dude! funny stuff.......who are you man?? And how is Oklahoma this time of year? grind for the myopic


now it's back to my humble, beer- swilling self.......sure.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:04 - ID#22956)
and I think D.A. is sunning and funning.....should be back soon...and with a 'mean' tan no doubt. protect my winky assets ;- )


(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:11 - ID#333447)
Thanx for Fed info. I can't find my historical notes.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:12 - ID#269191)
Why would anybody who is bullish on gold buy ABX?
Aren't they actually hurt by a rising gold price? They are very proud
that they sold 2 year's production forward. But doesn't that mean that
they are locked- in to that price? Therefore, if gold prices rise, they
not only don't reap the benefit, they actually loose because the unrealized gain on those contracts shrinks. They also run the risk, if
the gold market goes something like palladium, of not being able to offset those forward sales.

Aragorn III
(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:15 - ID#212323)
Please provide your valuable feedback
To all gold mining company CEOs:
( An Open Letter )

Cease immediately all sales of gold exceeding the minimum necessary to meet operating expenses for currently productive mining operations. Additionally, use available cash reserves to fill all outstanding forward sale contracts at the current spot price.

The commodity price of gold has been adversely affected by an artificial supply of paper gold from relentless short selling by speculators. By purchasing contracts rather than selling production to fill forward sales and gold loan commitments, the ensuing demand for warehouse delivery on these contracts will leave the short- selling speculators holding the bag, thus launching the upward recovery in the price while depleting warehouse inventories. This will enhance your future practice of selling only at spot prices only the minimum amount necessary to meet actual production expenses.

Your companys investors are a unique group, and they will reward you for these efforts. As evidenced by the past year on Wall Street, investors interested in generating paper profits bought equities in the broader market, NOT in the gold sector. Those investors remaining in the gold sector did so because they understand the true value of the gold itself, and know paper values to be transitory. To sell excess gold is to deprive your investors of the very object of their continued ownership.

Begin immediately to pay dividends in gold by crediting each shareholders account with their share of all gold mined in excess of the amount sold as directed above. This will further reinforce the supply/demand market forces to further drive upward the commodity price, leading to ever lessening amounts sold at spot prices needed to cover production expenses. This will in turn increase available gold for dividends, further reducing world supply reaching the open market, etc. Do not sell excess gold in an attempt to show paper profits. Remember, your investors WANT this gold, regardless of spot price. Paper profits may be sought elsewhere.

You will raise capital for exploration and development expenses through additional stock offerings. For attractive ventures your investors will pay cash in exchange for future gold and increasing shares of current production. Your investors realize the logical method to accumulate physical gold- - at its source. They will bid up the company stock price in relation to the quantity of gold dividend multiplied by the commodity price of gold.

Little thought will reveal this administrative paradigm to be a formula for ever- increasing dividends, reduction in gold reaching the commodity open market, increasing spot prices, selling less gold to cover production costs, raising gold dividends...and so on, in positive reinforcement of itself.

Discuss this with your peers and act immediately. The logistics of a dividend paid in gold may easily be addressed through accounts such as are available through the e- gold company or by establishing a similar in- house system.

Please recognize this modest change to the paradigm as a simple and straightforward method by which the producers may regain control of the industry. No longer will producers be hostage to such unthinkably low prices driven by the commodities market at the hands of forward selling and ruthlessly speculative short- selling. The reduction in supply from producers simply wont allow it; shareholders alone will eventually obtain the majority of physical gold produced when the industry implements this approach. Give shareholders the gold, then EVERYTHING will fall into place.


R.D. Strauss, P.E.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:16 - ID#288295)

Looks to me that there's a little more to go before taking a short position in bonds. The outer envelope in this chart is just starting to curl under:

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:19 - ID#284255)
Poor man - such pressure.
My pleasure.

Perchance you should share a cup with young Michael.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:21 - ID#333447)
Sharefin re suspicious mind
Maybe, but from what i get off of Kitco, you have an incisive mind like sharks teeth. I have a fair grasp of historyand sometimes know where the present is, but the big problem is the future. Apparently you have solved some of this. dO YOU HAVE A SUSBSCRIPTION SERVICE? I would like to hear from you in any case- email thanx.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:23 - ID#41229)
Decisions, decisions
A think the events of the past 24hr one has to reevaluate ones position.

As tolerant1, I asked about the paper assets holding up ( stocks ) ! Seems the topic is an unpopular one as Anothers predictions appear to be gaining credibility

I think when $ fails, smoke clears and cooler heads prevail, their would be some sortof value acredited to stocks for companies that weather the paper storm. But will do nothing for the dire times when the assets could make a difference between existing and not.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:25 - ID#57232)
Market manipulation at its best!(?)
sharefin: I'm beginning to see how it works. If you are worried the market will fall, you ( the insider ) prop it up with derivatives, allowing time to exit positions. As long as you are controlling the process, it is straightforward. Also, the more you push it up, the more shorts are wiped out, so they don't have to get paid. If by pushing the market up it does not fall quite so far as it might if you left it alone, those who are short in puts are out of the money and get nothing either.

My guess is that the market insiders can loose control too on occasion, and get caught in the suction. Given all the baby boomers we have, the market insider have a cushion this time I think. But - - - just wait until the baby boomers get nervous!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:25 - ID#424345)
The Ghost In The Machine
Sharefin, et al: I have just finished reading Rick Ackerman's latest thoughts on the US dollar spiralling up out of control on Vronsky's site ( thanks Vronsky! ) . This may be the "hidden hand" that is moving all these markets in such strange ways - as opposed to the cabals ( who may be running aound in panic before they are also crushed by their frankenstein ) .

Ever since US bonds started yielding less than 6% I have been bothered by an ugly little thought that the US dollar may be on an exponential death march. Rick Ackerman does a better job of verbalizing this concern.

The currency situation that Ackerman outlines would be very similar to the events leading to WWI where a relatively isolated incident triggers events that activate interlocking defense treaties more or less automatically leading to war. Today we have a similar situation with currency devaluations in the era of gobal economy.

What politically realistic choice does Suharto have when confronted with either pleasing a few international bankers at the expense of the entire indonesian economy and ( much more importantly ) the fate of his own family and all of their cronies.

What realistic choice does China have but to devalue it's own currency when it is faced with shutting down massive state industries and will need strong exports to support an economy absorbing tens of millions of displaced state workers.

This is what Greenspan is seeing when he mentions the "D" word.

The internal political pressures of the asian countries are leading to interlocking ( domino ) events that effectively are forcing massive currency devaluations.

Expect decimation of banks active in asian lending, global US companies ( like the 30 dow industrial stocks ) and especially US manufacturing companies.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:27 - ID#251268)
Gap filling
As hearts droped,maybe just a little gap filling?We'll see.Also the bulk of yes. gains came late and after market close,maybe suggesting that out side the U.S. people are ready to stop playing games and load up with a tangible commodity.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:29 - ID#347457)
@LGB and WetGold on reporting requirements for coin purchases
Folks, something does not sound right about reporting requirements for coin purchases under $5,000.
If coins can be bought under IRA ( according to new tax law ) this purchase has to be reported! IRS would not let you take a tax advantage without dealer reporting your purchase. If they have to report this type of purchase, I would question a privacy of any purchase, if for no other reason, dealers accounting and dealing with IRS may be too complicated to keep separate books.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:29 - ID#269191)
Anybody who thinks the central banks are selling all their gold should read this.
According to Gold Fields Mineral Services net offical sales totaled
393 tons for all of 1997. 19 central banks sold and 14 bought. The
gross sales were approximately 800 tons and purchases about 400 tons.
That's all folks. It is a total myth that the central banks are
demonetizing gold and getting rid of it. If it wasn't for the panic
sales by the Dutch and Belgians to beat EMU restrcitions, the C.B.'s
would have been net purchasers. Also the full year gap between
fabrication demand ( jewelery ) and mine output was 1300 tons ( 3700 vs.
2400 respectively ) . Check it out yourselves gold fans at
Click on the weekly market commentary.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:31 - ID#153102)
financial reporting and bond puts
I was given to understand purchases of coin are not reported, but if you sell coin, reports flow.

The US federal government will do anything to protect itself. With respect to the growth in credit ( 10% per annum ) , bond yields are already negative. The Street knows this. This may be behind the decline of gold. If gold were not dropping, there would be no penalty in lost interest for holding it instead of the dollar. Gold can only be pushed so low. Unlike a bond it cannot be pushed into negative territory. So can US government let bond yields really go much lower without giving up the game ? If gold buying starts in earnest, even the CB hoard would be swallowed in a day.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:32 - ID#243180)
Thanx! Dealers need to weigh in on this to give us the skinny.

Any dealers out there willing to share info .... hey ....

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:35 - ID#288140)

In case you don't have this URL already

I forgot the work around to make URLs clickable.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:36 - ID#401460)
Thanks - Good Site, how often is it updated.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:37 - ID#243180)
Open Question to ALL
When a government chops off a zero from the local currency - how is ( was ) this done ? Does the President/Chancellor/Dictator/... come on national TV and discuss it and rationalize it ? Does the local CB send a memo ?

I have a friend that teach in Moscow and she said that they lopped off 3 zeros there BUT since she has a PhD in some bogus area and knows nothing of finance and/or math I didn't pursue the details.

Any recent examples - not the 1933 FDR stuff ?.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:38 - ID#408147)
LBG Proofs
I'd beware of jumping into ANY 'coin' investment vs bullion investment. The reasons are simple:

1. Collector type coins are not as 'liquid' as buillon
2. The bid/ask price spread is often quite wide - - try selling a coin you just brought from a dealer as see what another dealer is willing to pay to for it!
3. Price regulation/posting on numismatics approaches 'voodoo' science at times.

IF you know what your doing with numismatic investments AND you have access to a reputable dealer ( or two ) , THEN you should be able to handle investing in collector- type coins with SOME level of safety.

Anyone who is just buying 'low- mintage', 'proof' coins from some dealer is asking to be ripped- off BIG TIME! that I have said my disclaimer, I do like the potential of gold/plat. proofs, but only the majors ( Maple Leafs, Eagles, etc. ) - - NEVER the 'off- the- walls ( Franklin Mint spec. editions, etc. )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:38 - ID#289357)

The boys down at Barrick didn't get where they are by being stupid. They know they are sitting on a Bo- zillion dollar trading profit when they cover their forward sales, and you can bet they won't let it get away from them. But they have to do it easy, so it won't spook the market.

I look for them to announce their cover by end of January, and also some announcements that they have a shopping list for all those dollars.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:39 - ID#269191)
The Ackerman article
Seems to me the dollar's rise contains the seeds of its own destruction.
With the high dollar and only robust economy, the U.S. will price itself
out of export markets and suck imports. The trade deficit will skyrocket
Since the deficit is a subtraction from GDP ( remember Econ 101 ) the
economy will slow. This will be bad for corporate profits and key
constituents of the political parties will cry about the foreign
competition. Trade friction will rise and as the economy slows and
trade deficit rises, the Fed will come under pressure to cut rates.
The dollar will fall. The currency crisis will then enter its final
stage- - the collapse of the reserve currency. The dollar will take the
rest of the finacial syatem with it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:39 - ID#333127)
Anyone have any idea as to when low cost mine starts prod. for RYO? I think it's called Kimess. Thanks.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:41 - ID#287207)
Confiscation of US Gold by FDR
Ted: I'm asking the question because I'd like to know how important it is to avoid confiscation in the future. Has a lot to do with the bullion or paper question. It never happened in Canada as far as I know and I'm no longer sure any gold was actually ripped from the hands of starving widows in the US either.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:41 - ID#269191)
Ackerman article
I also asked him why unsterilized intervention by the Fed couldn't stop
the dollar's rise. So far I haven't received an answer.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:43 - ID#284255)
Pushing for profits.
I was speaking to my futures broker in Sydney,
When Japan announced their economic policy.
He stated that the top brass in Japan were using it to exit their positions.

Futures are such a cheap way to unload large positions to weak hands.
Then you can sell out of your future position.

Long term copper chart.

Swing chart still on a sell.
Potential for a large down move is high.
Lots of shares have rounding tops and look to cycle down.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:44 - ID#280245)
and to the South, cival 'unrest'...
Police face arrest in Chiapas slaying
Mexican TV caught shootings on anti- government marchers
Julia Preston/New York Times

OCOSINGO, Mexico - - The governor of Chiapas state has called in army troops to arrest all 29 members of a police unit who opened fire on an anti- government march Monday, leaving one Indian protester dead.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:45 - ID#228100)
Serenity Prayer
ord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they posted stupid stuff.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:45 - ID#424345)
This Way Darkness Comes
Highrise: I agree with Silverbaron that it might be a bit soon to do the bond thingy. If the US$ goes exponential ( relatively speaking ) we could see Japanese yields for US bonds... Amazing what a black hole can do...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:46 - ID#333447)
Retearvis re your 10:45
I have thought some more about your comments. I only answered about currency/gold. Do you have another concept about gold's value? If so, please put it on me, Thanx

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:46 - ID#289357)
Quote for the day (and for us, every day)

Throughout history, the people who have made a difference - - those whose names we know and remember - - have marched to a different drummer and have seen the world from a decidedly different point of view. 'Failure and mediocrity are the norm. Success, in sharp contrast, is exceptional and quite rare.'

One obvious conclusion we can draw from these facts is that, to achieve success, it is necessary to leave the security and comfort of conformity - - to set aside the widely held views and accepted behaviors that surround us - - and at least begin the process of looking at our personal and business lives from creative new vistas - - from Contrarian perspectives.

Successful, ultra- creative, world- altering individuals are not completely different from everyone else. Their differences are subtle and few. But, within these seemingly fine distinctions lie the great secrets for achieving success and prosperity in business and in life.

from a flyer on the web at

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:47 - ID#288140)
Supposedly, the IRS can not get into a corporate safety deposit box. At least access is not as easy as an individual's box.

I heard someone around here buried his gold, probably with a tractor. Just be sure you somehow let your heirs know exactly how to find it. I heard that some zoo buried an elephant head and couldn't find the skull only a fews years later.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:48 - ID#335190)
Bank of Canada @ International Business taking care of International Business ( C.D. Howe Institute)
John W. Crow
Fellow- in- Residence

John W. Crow graduated from Oxford University in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics in 1961. Upon leaving university, he joined the International Monetary Fund in Washington, D.C. His initial work at the Fund was concentrated in Latin America. In 1969, he transferred to the North American Division ( Canada, United States, and Mexico ) and was appointed Chief of the Division in 1970.

Mr. Crow joined the Research Department of the Bank of Canada in 1973 as Deputy Chief, and was appointed Chief a year and a half later. He was appointed Advisor to the Governor in 1979, Deputy Governor in 1981, and Senior Deputy Governor in 1984. In 1987, he was appointed Governor for a term of seven years, which expired on January 31, 1994. In 1993, he was elected Chairperson of the central bank Governors of the Group of Ten countries. He also relinquished this position on January 31, 1994.

Mr. Crow now resides in Toronto, from where he acts as adviser to the American International Group of companies, and as a Director of Midland Walwyn. 2/crow.html

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:50 - ID#243180)
Lost buried elephants head ?
You should have used the police around here - couple years ago coppers found bodies buried under a guys sink for years.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:53 - ID#258129)
Full moon
It is full moon today, or I am wrong?
IMO, Dow will end the week minus 60- 130 to current level. At the moment, shows 7721. Has nothing to do with full fool moon

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:54 - ID#261157)
Construction is continuing on schedule at the Kemess site. The project is 82 percent complete with start up still expected early in April.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:55 - ID#288140)
Just saw your 12:41. Understand your are in Canada. Maybe your laws are similar. Or you could incorporate yourself in USA easily I think. Might not be convenient if you don't go back and forth very often.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 12:57 - ID#287207)
Sam. Thanks. If I had any bullion at the moment I wouldn't bury it in my garden. I'm beginning to think I'm asking a question for which ther is no answer.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:01 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
Another one for the list?

HK shares in london down; rumours that a property company had defaulted - Sino Land

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:02 - ID#338289)
APH: Lost My Nerve
APH: I went flat this morning when silver weaked a bit. I'm concerned that we might still be in the correction and I'd rather be flat than dead ( grin thingy ) . I got out where I got in so no harm done. I'll look for a good place to get back in. Good luck! Did you see the 1- month rate on silver? Over 8% ! Do you use these in any way in your analysis?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:02 - ID#289357)
Repeating previous post, which may have disappeared into cyberspace.

Updated every couple days, I think. Seems like a good system for long- term entry and exit points. I've requested guidance from the source in developing an envelope chart for silver, but as yet no response.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:03 - ID#31868)
MARKET UPDATE ( 01/14/98 ) AM- - - - - Gold rallied above yesterday's New York close in Hong Kong and Tokyo overnight with massive short covering dominating trade. In Tokyo, at least one ton of shorted gold was covered at current prices in what had all the appearances of panic short covering. Experts expect more short covering in New York as the day begins in the Western hemisphere. FWN reported yesterday fund buying in behalf of Republic Securities - - a division of Republic National Bank, one of the largest gold bullion banks. Short selling through Republic Securities beginning in mid- 1997 signaled the beginning of the gold's rapid decline from the $375 area to below $300. Whether or not these same traders are now covering those shorts is the open question. In a very interesting story run by Reuters this morning, George Soros declared the situation in Hong Kong and China as "precarious." Hong Kong's peg to the U.S. dollar is being maintained only at great cost. If the Chinese currency were devalued, the peg would not hold," he said. Soros went on to say that the problems in Asia had the "wherewithal to destroy the world trade system, but the probability is against it." He went to say that the Asian turbulence could spread to Latin America - - a conjecture we brought to the surface weeks ago. Mr. Soros must read this Daily Report! Gold has been unaffected by the public gold turn- ins in S. Korea and Thailand even though mainstream press reports paint a different picture. ( Mainstream press reports on gold of late usually have a kicker that the metal is likely to go down because of the gold call- ins in Asia, etc. etc. Ed. Note: Nobody pays attention to this old & tired rhetoric anymore. ) Could end up being an interesting day after yesterday's breakout - - gold up almost $5 at day's end and then up another $3 in Asia. We shall see what develops. Very busy here at USAGOLD/Centennial Precious Metals. Please call if we can be of service. There is a real shortage developing in both gold bullion and some pre- 1933 material. Please call if you would like the details and if you are thinking of making a purchase. Thanks. Have a good day, fellow goldmeisters.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:04 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Selby - - Lots of ways to put it out- of- site and out- of- mind so it can not be easily stolen or found. And not necessarily outside. Think about it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:07 - ID#269409)
@ RayZer...Numismatic coins
Not a thing in your post I would disagree with Rayz. "Rare" type collector coins are not for investors, they're for collectors. You "can" make great gains in them...if you're an expert and don't need liquidity. Certainly we agree on that.

The "Numismatic" coins I was referring too are common Proofs that trade with a small premium and are quite liquid. A different ballgame. When it comes to that which coin dealers push, "Slabbed" U.S. type coins etc., very few folks will realize gains without being absolute experts, unless and until the coin market explodes to levels it enjoyed around 1980, when such coins were worth 5 times what they are now!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:08 - ID#401460)
DEJ (Why would anybody who is bullish on gold buy ABX?)
ABX sold ahead at a high price if the price of gold hits that price we will all be happy, including ABX. ABX & NEM are two of the few money making miners today they know what they are doing. And their stock is CHEAP!


PS: The UN is meeting - look out Saddam the world needs a stimulous and a news diversion.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:14 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Highrise - - Couldn't agree more about the UN meeting. They DO need a diversion! Saddam is made to order for all kinds of diversions. If the people over there only knew!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:15 - ID#287207)
Eldorado. I'm still wondering if the concern about gold confiscation based on what did or did not happen in the '30s is a real concern or just hysteria. At the moment it is beginning to look a little like it never happened - - yet.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:16 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter - perhaps?
i was at another internet chat site for a long time which had a brilliant schizophrenic in residence. every once in a while he would forget or refuse to take his medicine and show up and make a mess at the site and piss everyone off. saddamn is a lot like that.
Sounds like?
Weekend reading:
Interesting that with the S& P at 950 approx.
Feb 1000 calls @ 7.30
Feb 900 puts @ 12.00
- - - - - - - - - - -
Feb 1060 calls @ 0.35
Feb 840 puts @ 4.50

Seems like it's a bit one sided.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:16 - ID#401460)
Tolerant1 - Sorros Publically Worried!
"In a very interesting story run by Reuters this morning, George Soros declared the situation in
Hong Kong and China as "precarious." Hong Kong's peg to the U.S. dollar is being maintained only at great cost. If the Chinese currency were devalued, the peg would not hold," he said. Soros went on to say that the problems in Asia had the "wherewithal to destroy the world trade system, but the probability is against it." He went to say that the
Asian turbulence could spread to Latin America - - "

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:17 - ID#254269)
Psst. Map For Sale; Shows an elephants head. Price one gold bar.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:18 - ID#251268)
See the grains retracing,sold hc8 had a hc 270 call bought cheap I'll keep it for awhile.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:20 - ID#280245)
Sharefin re: Folly, Frenzy, Fear Index
We slid into the Sea of Fear last week. ( The christening of the
Ship of Fools took place Christmas Eve )

The Law of the Last Straw is in full effect: many straws from which
to choose in five major categories. Will you do the honors with
the envelope Sharefin, when the moment arrives? We all thank you.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:20 - ID#335190)
Who will build this building @ Justifiable Faith or Wishful thinking? in the private sector.
Bank of Canada high real interest rates since the eighties - and particularly since Crow's anti- inflation war began in 1988 - have been the driving force behind the deficit.

All this still leaves us with a great unanswered question: What was it about "price stability" that so inspired John Crow and the experts at the Bank of Canada? Exactly what did they think it offered that could possibly have justified damaging the lives of millions of Canadians who suffered from job losses or the ripple effects of all that unemployment?

The evidence of the benefits of zero inflation must be overwhelming. Right?

As the Bank of Canada screwed the oxygen lever tighter and tighter, it was difficult at times to see where all this would lead. Hence the need for **FAITH.**

Economist Lars Osberg explains the dilemma this way:
" [I]f one observes people digging, and the hole they are digging is getting deeper and deeper, how is one to know whether this is an ordinary hole, or the hole for the foundation of a building?

How can one empirically tell the difference? If they are asked what they are doing, and they say ' we are not digging a hole, we are digging the excavation for a big foundation for a beautiful building,' how can an impartial observer know?

One can ask ' who will build this building?' but if the answer one receives is 'the market will build the building,' how can one know whether this is justifiable faith in the private sector, or wishful thinking? "

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:24 - ID#194311)
What's going on?
Someone pull the market plug on Yahoo!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:24 - ID#38451)
Gold Bull
I am thinking out loud here but I don't see many classes of assets except gold worth investing in. Stocks markets domestically and internationally are turning into high risk propositions, bond yiels are decreasing. If the situation doens't change, i could see money flowing in gold with a snowballing effect.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:28 - ID#401460)
This may be it, UN is mtg. now.
2 days in a row UN inpection team turned away.
Cohen on the move.
Copper on the move.
Gold action.
Oil some strength.
Grains ?
Where is Clinton, Secretary of State, Sec. of Treasury and the rest of the cabinet.
Any Vapor Streamers @ 50K?
Who Knows?


(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:28 - ID#269409)
@ Poorboys.....Platinum
Why'd you dump your Platinum with such a small gain? Now it's absolutely exploding upwards and I tend to concur with RJ, who's expertise in his Platinum calls has been consistently on target, that it has higher to go.

I'm holding to $420, unless the metals bo into a genuine bull in the near term, in which case I'll hold out for $480.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:29 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Selby - - Anymore, anything can happen. It is always a good idea to hide any valuables to keep any thief from finding them. You have the option of attaching that label to the Feds if you choose, or not. Governments everywhere are getting more and more 'popular'. HAR!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:30 - ID#347457)
@Kiwi and Yahoo
Kiwi, I don't know, Yahoo works for me just fine

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:31 - ID#269409)
@ Kiwi..Yahoo workin well...

Wednesday January 14, 1:08 pm Eastern Time

FOCUS- Wobbly Wall St open scares Euroshares

( Updates, with Wall St open, U.S. retail sales data )

By Trevor Datson

LONDON, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - European share markets slipped from session highs following Wednesday's equivocal Wall
Street opening, and market players braced themselves for possible new shocks.

``It's all very tentative,'' one London trader said. ``It feels as though we could go either way as we're only really reacting
to overseas markets.''

The Dow Jones Industrial index bobbed around starting levels despite predictions of 30- 40 point gains fuelled by a return
of interest in the technology sector.

Asian bourses posted a second day of strong advances, but many market players looked on the ground gained as a simple
if spectacular correction.

The bulls' victories in the Far East may have been pyrrhic, but they were anything but insignificant.

Hong Kong's Hang Seng rallied 507 points or 5.81 percent to end at 9,227 after slipping from highs of 9,317. Jakarta's
composite index gained 5.72 percent to 403.98, and in Singapore, the Straits Times Industrials index leapt 7.5 percent to
1,243. Turnover across the region was heavy.

Initial rises in the FTSE 100 blue chip index were derailed only temporarily by stronger- than- expected labour market
data, and the benchmark had gained over one percent by the U.S. stock market open.

However, the timid start to the Wall Street day knocked the index back to stand about 0.6 percent higher shortly after the
New York open.

Dealers said the market had found fair value.

``We're about right at these levels with that scale of gain in New York ( on Tuesday ) and on the Hang Seng. It was always
on the cards today,'' one dealer said, noting that a 4.3 percent rise for HSBC ( quote from Yahoo! UK & Ireland: HSBA.L )
stock made a hefty contribution to the FTSE rise.

After a strong start to the morning, Frankfurt shares slipped from the day's highs by midday as a 4,200 technical support
level in the DAX index gave way.

Sports equipment maker Adidas ( ADSG.F ) led the morning's gainers, picking up almost five percent to 246 marks after
brokers Commerzbank and Paribas expressed their approval of the recent merger with Salomon ( SLMP.PA ) .

French shares received a boost from an eight percent gain in SGS- Thomson ( STM.PA ) to 255 francs, following stronger
than expected fourth quarter earnings from sector leader U.S. Intel ( Nasdaq:INTC - news ) .

The Paris CAC- 40 blue- chip index firmed over one percent during the morning, and one voice in the wilderness even
suggested a resumption of the autumn's bull trend.

However, the index was dragged down as European counterparts failed to share in the French enthusiasm.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mark 1.8252/57 Yen 131.05/10 Sterling 1.6305/10
Gold $284.60/5.10 +5.35 ( pvs PM fix ) Brent $15.36 - 0.02
FTSE 100 5115.9 +32.0 CAC 2936.49 +33.56 DAX 4190.08 +30.68
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On the foreign exchange markets, Asian dealers said the bourse rally was giving added strength to a tentative recovery in
the region's currencies, and gains were accelerated by stop- loss sales of the U.S. dollar.

Soothing comments by officials from the International Monetary Fund also spurred players to reduce dollar holdings in
the hope of richer if riskier pickings in Asia.

IMF Managing Director Michel Camdessus said he hoped to announce a ``very solid agreement'' with Indonesia on
long- overdue economic reforms designed to pull the nation out of its current financial mess.

The dollar clawed back some of the ground lost to the yen in last night's Asian rebound, and the mark softened on
comments from Bundesbank council member Hans- Juergen Krupp that inflation was under control, lessening the
likelihood of a German rate hike.

Sterling gave up early gains made after the December minutes of the Bank of England monetary policy committee,
published on Wednesday, indicated tighter policy might be needed ``quite soon.''

December U.S. retail sales data, showing a 0.7 percent increase in overall sales, had no discernible effect on the debt or
stock markets as the figure was exactly in line with analysts' forecasts.

U.S. Treasuries were little changed, but signs of greater stability in Asia were expected to keep downwards pressure on
the market.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:31 - ID#31868)
I would imagine that people in the know are very worried quite frankly. If the system takes a major hit they will be at risk as well.

That is why since WWII the bankers finally figured out they could make more money on smaller well managed wars. They are not that bright really. Should the dollar crash there would be such worldwide turmoil that even the well armed nations would be at risk, hence the bankers will do anything so as not to mess up their golf schedules. They will try as they are now, time will tell if they have enough wool to pull over the world's eyes.

Personally I think they have screwed the pooch ( I know Camdesuss has my dog still has that terrible rash. ) and the game has gotten away from them. The US can only police so much at once, Camdesuss is their little waterboy, Cohen is a joke, Robbin Rubin and Printin Clintin are about to become a part of history they had not bargained on IMHO.

And I am wondering when the real Alan Greenspan will stand up. He is only one link in the chain and who knows what they are hanging over his head to make him act in a manner that goes against every paper written by his hand on the subject of gold.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:32 - ID#401460)
They were down earlier, But now
Looks pretty good!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:35 - ID#244360)
Any opinions on the future of central asia?
Just wondering if anyone here gives credence to Mayberry's
Chaostan theories, as I was considering buying KazMinCo...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:36 - ID#269409)
@ HighRise re Soros
Re your 16:13, and Soros grim comments re Asia's potential for worldwide trade system collapse. I'm confused, is this the same Soros that Vronsky and others have posted about as being part of the big money media conspiracy manipulators trying to hide the truth from the public about shaky world finance problems??

How could he make such a statement? Aren't the Rothscild's, Rockafellers, Rubinites, et al keeping him in line?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:36 - ID#287207)
Eldorado. I know it isn't a popular view on Kitco but the Canadian gov's are getting more popular. Poll came out earlier this week that even the Prime Minister's popularity is going up. Of course we are in the middle of tax reductions and deficit elimination so it may be temporary.

Still don't know if the confiscation of private citizens gold ever happened in the US.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:40 - ID#93232)
DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE!!! Take it from ol' Studio.R...the guy on the other end of the line is a young, frantic stock broker. Yesterday, and even more so today, my business phone lines have been clogged by brokers trying to unload stocks. The offered shares are part of the one and one half billion shares bought by the evil houses to prop up the aged, weary bull. This is not going to work this time...the bull is impotent. The bull has become bologna...Oscar Meyer time boys. Sing it all together now! B..O..L..O..G..N..A.'re good! Eat the sandwich...pass the shares.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:41 - ID#401460)
"what they are hanging over
his head to make him act in a manner that goes against every paper
written by his hand on the subject of gold."


He was going to raise rates before the Asian crises. I still believe that because his hands have been tied, it is only a matter of time till the US goes into an inflationary stage. It may be there now, who knows, with the media control/spin and manipulated reports coming out of Wash.DC.

Printin Clintin, all of this has to hit the fan sooner or later. IMHO


(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:41 - ID#426220)

ALAN GREENSPAN: Can a leopard change his spots...?

In 1981 Alan Greenspan spilled his guts, poured his heart out, gave us the straight- skinny, let it all hang out REGARDING WHAT HE REALLY THINKS ABOUT THE GOLD STANDARD. UNCHARACTERISTICALLY, he spoke in everyday common, clear language... he obviously wanted EVERYONE TO GRASP HIS THOUGHT, to comprehend, indeed to truly understand the essence of the GOLD STANDARD... its benefit and its control of THE IRRATIONAL EXUBERANCE OF POLITICIANS. Is this the echo of the future?

To read Greenspan's essay on the GOLD STANDARD, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:42 - ID#31868)
Take a peek at IPJ - International Pursuit. I think you will like what you see.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:43 - ID#269409)
@ Gold & Silver...insider vs. speculator positions
Interesting that Gold industry buyers are long vs. short at an approx. 2:1 ratio, while "speculators" are short to long at an approx. 6:1 ratio.

We see the opposite situation for Silver. It's the one major indicator that worries me about Silver and has me thinking about shifting some of those profits Silver profits into Gold. Well, that and my newfound bullishness on Gold, would make it a good diversity move. Hmmm, them "Saints" can still be had around $440 or so.......

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:45 - ID#288157)
fiorino d' oro: "perhaps the most stable unit of currency in monetary history..."

The Florentine unit of account, the gold florin, was introduced in 1252, and held its value for about two hundred years.

..It is interesting and inspiring to consider the calamities that did not result in wholesale devaluation of the Florentine currency. The list includes war, bank failures, government bankruptcy, the Black Death, famine, flood, economic depression and credit contraction.
Grant, Minding Mr. Market p. 325

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:48 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Selby - - Yes, the confiscation did happen. Unless you had you gold 'buried' somewhere away from governments prying eyes, you could consider it gone. And at that, you had to leave it alone for all those years. The only coins I am told that would not be confiscated are those that had at least a 15% premium to spot. Numismatics in other words, kept for investment purposes and that would'nt see the light of day. I won't even guarantee that statement though. But all those late 20s and early 30s gold coins falling outside of that 15% premium markup would certainly not be available today if they had ever seen the light of day. They were either 'buried' or overseas.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:51 - ID#287207)
Eldorado: but was the confiscation what we would fear on Kitco. For example did the G- men raid private homes and remove what they found? I'm convinced there was a "law" was if enforced and gold sought out and forcefully removed?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:54 - ID#401460)
LGB (@ HighRise re Soros)
Makes one wonder doesn't it?
Glad to see you are wondering what they are doing also. I am sure there is a motive behind the public statements by Soros and others.

There has been an effort to publically stress the importance of Asia in an attempt to get the US and others to contribute to the IMF and Asian cause. The US congress does not want to fund any more aid to Asia. The US is broke, it has never really been paid back by Mexico.

The big boys are srambling for sure, but they are getting what they wanted - the Asian markets are being forced open to outsiders. The Bankers have been trying to enter those markets for many, many years!


(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:57 - ID#287207)
Asia Bottoming
Exxon announces 400 million investment in Thailand for new plant. Bank of Nova Scotia announces plans to buy financial concerns in Asia. Can the bottom have been reached?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:58 - ID#153111)
Answer to WetGold's question
WetGold asked a question about how a government can remove zeros from there currency, the answer is easy, it is their currency and what they say goes. Now some examples of not how but what has happen.

Argentina: on 29 Dec 86 ( that is when my data starts ) 1US$ bought 1.211 pesos in Argentina
6 Jan 92 1US$ bought 9,905 pesos,

The next week the dismal point was shifted over 4 places to the left to about .9999 and has stayed there since.

Mexico: 29 Dec 86 1US$ bought 897 pesos
11 Jan 93 1US$ bought 3,116 pesos

The next week the dismal point was shifted over 3 places to the left. I was in Mexico not to long after this correction. The new 10 peso notes looked different from the old 10,000 peso notes but they both bought the same item: they were both in circulation and interchangeable with each other at the same time. HEY, NO PROBLEM!

Peru: 29 Dec 86 1US$ bought 13.95 Sol
21 Jan 91 1US$ bought 524,934.38 Sol

The next week the "NEW SOL" came out and the dismal point was shifted over 6 places to the left.

Brazil: 29 Dec 86 1US$ bought 14.541 Real
16 Jan 89 1US$ bought 802.1 Real

Next week the dismal point shifted over 3 places, but the story is not done!

2- Aug- 93 1US$ bought 68142 Real

Move the dismal point over again 4 places

4 Jul 94 1US$ bought 2698 Real

Move the dismal point over 4 places again.

To make it simple I'll show the effects of inflation on these poor people.

Argentina took 1 peso and turned them into 8256, need I say the government kept the new 8255 for its self and handed a loss of 99.9878876% of value to the one peso it allowed it citizen's to keep. No that is not true, I'm sure they taxed the remaining peso.

Brazil took 1 Real and turned it in to ( get this ) 222,119,990 reals, and no this doesnt work like a stock split where before you had one and now you have two. Rather, currency devaluation works like before you had one, now after the devaluation you still have one but it is only worth  as the government keeps all new peso, real, or US$ production. To get a better idea of the devastation of currency devaluation on wealth here is an example:

The Brazilian government took 1 and turned it into 222,119,990 from 29 Dec 86 to present, that's only 12 years! See why sometimes they want to remove a few zeros every now a then? What if a Brazilian citizen had 222,119,990 real on 29 Dec 86? Well it would have been worth US$15,318,620.00 with an exchange rate of 14.5 real to 1 US$ on 29 Dec 86. Inflation caused by the Brazilian government reduced that US$15 million dollars ( also remember 1986 US$ are worth more than 1998 Dollars ) and made it worth ONE 1998 US$ DOLLAR. Dr. Frankenstein dosen't work as a mad medical scientist, no, he is a mad social scientist working somewhere in government.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:58 - ID#288140)
If you just have to know. You could try asking Nick Chase to look into the subject. He asked his "subscribers" to send him personal recollections of the depression. After a few months he started putting really fascinating stories on his site. I haven't checked it recently. I think he has some fresh stuff up now.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:59 - ID#284255)
Getting ready - slow hints. Frenzy to follow.
England puts in 20% trading curbs.
US seeks to enlarge trading curbs, but gets scared.
Now Soros - Rothschilds issue warnings.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 13:59 - ID#57232)
G. Soros
HighRise: Interesting comments. Sounds like G Soros reads the Kitco news, doesn't it? Now why would he talk gloom and doom? Is it like his books - - he wants to say it the way he sees it? Only problem is, he has put himself in the role of a public figure. You don't say things like that in public - - only behind closed doors. Why haven't his sponsors reeled him it yet? If this is a signal of some kind - - it is pretty heavy handed.

It makes me think that his money is betting that China will devalue, and pull down whats left of SE Asia. If South America goes as he warns, the US will be on shaky ground indeed. At the least there will be a boatload of US investors hanging high and dry.

I wonder what the MIT economist Rudiger Dornbusch is saying. Donald - - anything?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:00 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Selby - - I'm not aware of any house- raiding having taken place. They were not quite the police state we seem to be now where you have Feds kicking in doors and sticking guns in your face as they ransack your home. Anymore, I figure that if they want to actually look for coins and other, they'll use metal detectors. Take that into account when 'hiding' stuff.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:03 - ID#287207)
I can't seem to get any info on door breaking either.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:06 - ID#187218)
MJPL @ 13:58
This is data I will cut/paste and save - Thank U.

I was under the impression that when this occurred ( zero[s] disappearing ) that the respective governments had a public broadcast on Sunday evening stating that on Monday the old currency would need to be exchanged for new currency while simultaneously all debt ( mortgage, credit, etc ) and commodities expenses ( milk, sugar, etc ) would be equally devalued in one fell swoop. Perhaps I'm reliving an old nightmare, dated twilight zone episode, or outdated books. I'm fully aware of the effects over a given time period BUT does it ever occur "Over Night" ?

Again - Good stuff and Thanx!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:06 - ID#339274)
eye of the storm
Markets are unusually quite which ever way it is going to be a strong move.Looking at the long bond they are ready to fall out of
bed.Abx covered and shorted at 17 1/2.To go long net it has to go over 18

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:07 - ID#333447)
Tolerant1 re 13:03
You said call. Send me your number or call me 704 433 6473. Not a big deal, but it would be more secure than the net. Thanx

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:08 - ID#254269)
Buried gold stories ; I seem to recall reading somewhere that during WWII

the British government physically moved a lot of its gold to Canada for safekeeping. It was loaded onto some destroyers and they moved it to
( I believe ) , Ottawa. I think I have the book at home and will look it up

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:10 - ID#401460)
JTF (G. Soros)
Yes, I agree. I ask the other day why did a public figure, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve use the word "DEFLATION" in PUBLIC? That is an economist taboo a real no no, they never use that word unless they are trying to spook the markets or are sure of the potential of DEPRESSION.


PS: Now Hillary doesn't want Paula at the White House. Wow!, that Man has his hands full.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:14 - ID#364147)
Is the God-damn gold rally runnin out of steam already??
JTF: Will be a few hours south of the Bay of Fundy ( Bar Harbor area ) but the tides are still pretty HUGE ( eh...Novice ) ...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:16 - ID#31868)
That was not me that asked anyone to call. You can go to their site and get a number to speak directly to the folks at

Sorry if there was any confusion. I don't know those folks. I do read their site and post their stuff here frequently.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:20 - ID#153102)
"LGB ( @ Gold & Silver...insider vs. speculator positions ) ID#269409:
Interesting that Gold industry buyers are long vs. short at an approx. 2:1 ratio, while
"speculators" are short to long at an approx. 6:1 ratio. "

What is the source of this data ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:20 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Ted - - I have a sometimes moving line I draw in the 'sand' that I dare it to cross. So far, it has met it but hasn't broken it. Not saying it won't. Just that it hasn't yet.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:20 - ID#270236)
Silverbaron: Question on ABX
Aren't you assumining they can cover? What if the market gets away from them?
If the shorts panic and given the deficit in mine supply vs. fabrication
demand, the price could spike up quickly. The gains would evaporate.
Didn't something like this happen in palladium?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:22 - ID#254269)
@ WetGold re currency changeovers. I was a teenager in Australia when
we changed from the old pounds, shillings and pence systems to the
decimal system. I cannot recall the year but it was in the 60's. If I recall
the "old" pound was fixed at two "new dollars and it was a change over
a period of time ( maybe 2 years ) , because everything ( machines, cash registers etc. ) had to be recalabrated . I still have one of the old pound notes. Back then the aussie dollar was worth about 1.35 US dollars. Today it is worth about 65 US cents.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:23 - ID#57232)
Cyclist --- Your 14:06.-- Logging off for a while.
Cyclist: "Bonds falling out of bed". Is that bonds down, interest rates up? Just wasn't sure what you meant, that's all. I think I can speak for many Kitcoites that your daily tally of your actions are very much appreciated.

All: The DOW looks like it is peaking on the intraday charts, after only 3 days of short- term rally. Running out of steam already? If the insiders are trying for a 10- 15% runup before the next downturn, they better start rolling up their sleeves! Perhaps the PPT is running out of fuel. Either way, as someone said ( Cyclist I think ) it sure does seem like "the eye of the storm" - - the new trend whatever it is, is about to declare itself.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:23 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Ted - - And just as got that posted, it crossed my short term line and stopped me out.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:27 - ID#364147)
Business 'as USUAL' in Nova Scotia

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:28 - ID#28585)
The gold shorts are doing everything they can to constrain the gold ore...but the gold propaganda machine is ready to kick into full gear.

At last, some of the major players are attacking the New Paradigm and beginning to change the perception.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:29 - ID#187218)
As stated by MJPL - your experience is based on a 2 year time span. If this is always the case ( over specified time interval ) then how is this perform so that the end game is achieved ? Who is watching the game so that each step ( in the game ) is successfully achieved. How does the Au$ become reduced so dramatically over 2 years ? Let's not get into this cabal trap - how is it done ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:29 - ID#364147)
Eldorado................are you sayin ya think the gold rally is----------
OVER for now~~~~~~~~

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:31 - ID#287207)
Eldorado: Looks like the gold bugs greatest fear is underway in Montreal. After 8 days of no electrcity and zero degree temperatures the Police are now forcefully evicting people from their houses and taking them to heated Community centers. Also the Army has now been given police "arrest" powers as there have been some thefts of portable generators.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:31 - ID#339274)
JTF The long bond interest rate will spike up.Short the banks,they look even worse. More so when I mentioned it last week.Happy trading

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:33 - ID#28585)
@LGB...your 13:43 post says it all, doesn't it?
Your perspicacity is growing and growing with each and every day.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:34 - ID#177109)
selby on confiscation
Selby: All I have found so far is that it was estimated that 500 million worth of gold ( @$20.67 the oz ) was NOT turned in by May 1933 which then resulted in the penalty being increased for failure to report ownership of gold to $10,000 per day and/or prison time!!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:34 - ID#338289)
Traders: Silver
After seeing how silver closed does anyone else think that the shorts are gonna try and hammer it down again tonight in the overnight market?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:34 - ID#22451)
Gee Guys,
Maybe there are three midgets in a garage in Brooklyn running the world! How could there be a CONSPIRACY? If the NWO is a figment of every one's imagination, then why is every thing falling into place, namely by creating chaos and government by emergency, to finally realize their dreams of a one world currency ( fiat ) thereby being able to really control all commerce,trade, governments, and peoples.
If you can't see the BIG PICTURE, and every one else also, then we deserve what ever happens.

PS Did'nt Soros start all of what is happening in Asia? I do not recall, was it Malaysia?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:37 - ID#187218)
aurophile - re: confiscation
Are U suggesting that records were kept in the 1930's ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:37 - ID#364147)
More 'business'(?) as USUAL in Nova Scotia bin/home/secfront?1998/01/14+NovaScotia

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:39 - ID#227238)
Aurophile: $10K/day and or jail???? ... May be splitting hairs on definitions but that sounds like confiscation to me.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:40 - ID#364147)
Try it again---more business(?) as USUAL in Nova Scotia bin/home/secfront?1998/01/14+NovaScotia

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:42 - ID#287207)
Gold Confiscation
Aurophile. thanks for the information. As far as I can tell after some looking into this matter - - the law was passed and some gold was "turned in". It became clear that not all was turned in- - who would have guessed. The penalty was raised subsequently. BUT was there any of the forceful removal of gold that lies at the heart of the issue - - here. I'm beginning to doubt it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:42 - ID#364147)
SCREW IT............even the newspapers don't work right in
NOVA SCOTIA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:42 - ID#187218)
Bullion purchases in Canada
I read ( quickly ) the other day someone was leaving for the day and going to a "ScotiaBank" to pick up a few Maples. Can U buys bullion directly in Canada ? Haven't been there many years BUT if this is so, I will schedule a vacation...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:44 - ID#187218)
Ted: ........cgi-bin........ has a space

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:46 - ID#348286)
SELBY: There is actually a cash shotage here. Banks are CLOSED in Montreal and probably will be till Monday. The worst outlying areas have no bank machines either!
The separatist leader Lucien Bouchard asked that the Canadian Army be given powers of arrest, this from an Animal who in normal times dumps on the Canadian flag.
Montreal is essentially shut down since last week.
Apparently we were minutes away from a complete long term blackout when the freezing rain let- up.
It goes to show you that we are never far away from anarchy, and one must always be prepared........

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:47 - ID#187218)
Try this bin/home/secfront?1998/01/14+NovaScotia

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:47 - ID#153102)
selby re confiscation
1933. US Treasury agents took gold coin, certificates, and bullion out of bank depositories, including safe deposit boxes. Took gold from refiners and such. House to house not worth the trouble.

The big confiscation was the gold in banks which was actually bank reserves. Some of the big bullion boys moved gold offshore in 1933 and then repatriated in in 1934 making nifty windfall on the difference between 1934 official price of $35 and and 1933 official price of $20.67.

Remember metal in the US was replaced by paper from 1862 onward. 1933 was like scenes from Dr Zhivago. It was the capitalist's gold that was taken and nobody wept for the banksters. Too many had lost everything when their local banks went belly up.

Anybody who believes the propaganda that the Cold War was between capitalism and communism does not know and understand US history. Almost all governments today, regardless of what they call themselves, are nationalist and socialist, or National Socialist in sum, US federal included.

Security ??? Switzerland.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:47 - ID#338289)
aurophile: 24,000,000+ ozs
aurophile: If you meant $500,000,000 at $20.67 an oz thats 24,000,000+ ozs. There must have been a lot of people back then that were more concerned about their families than what Uncle Sam wanted. I'm glad to hear it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:47 - ID#254269)
@ WetGold; There were two separate issues involved here as follows;

1. The "old" pound was "fixed" at a rate of, say two "new" dollars with
pro- rata fixings for shillings and pence ; Thus, ten shillings which was "half a pound" was worth 50 "new cents. I think the transition period was two years at the end of which time, the "old" currency would not be
accepted within Australia for everyday transactions. There has to be a
transition period to allow for the old currency to be taken "out of the system" and for the new currency to be "accepted" by the population for
everyday transactions and for contracts to be fulfilled etc. As I say, about the only place you would see a one pound note today is in a collectors
shop somewhere.

2. You seem to be confusing foreign currency transactions with domestic
currency transactions. AT THE TIME of the changeover, one "old " pound was worth two "new" aussie dollars and BOTH of these were
worth the same amount in terms of US dollars, or YEN, or Deutsche Marks, or Swiss Francs, etc. That rate changes daily and even by the minute as have recently seen ( and are seeing ) in Asia.

3. The only other Anglo country that has gone through a similar situation
was the UK itself, which changed from their old pounds, shilling and pence system ( after Australia did ) to their new decimal systerm which for a long time, they called "new pence".

4. Back in Australia before the changeover, there twleve pence in a shilling and twnty shillings in a pound.

5. Australia had a two year transition but there is nothing to stop a government using a shorter or longer transition as we have seen in some situations.

6. Yesterdays ( 1/13 ) WSJ had an article on the very front page about how during the eighteenth century, different states in the US had "different" dollars. I did not read the whole article and unfortunately tossed out my WSJ.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:48 - ID#287207)
Pack your Bag
WetGold: You can buy gold bullion and coins from the Bank of Nova Scotia
and get what you want while you wait from the main branch in Toronto. If you go elsewhere you may have to wait a couple of days. There are several other place to buy as well. Borders make for different rules eh.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:48 - ID#187218)
I agree
Screw it.

Bill G
(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:49 - ID#260354)
Do you want to add this URL for Plutonic ( I believe it's relatively new ) to your list of Home Pages?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:50 - ID#187218)
Selby: I'ma cummin
Does one need to show identification of citizenship ? What's the premium over spot price ???

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:51 - ID#212132)
why does Stefen Mooney lobby so hard for my banishment?
Especially now that I have stated the bottom is in,
and my record is far better than his.

Stefen, turn the page. Your tired attacks,
recycled from last year, no longer apply.
I am telling you that now it is finally
appropriate for you to tell people
to buy gold. Under your system, people would have
dollar cost averaged themselves into bankruptcy.
Under my system, people don't have to dollar
cost average anything - With every wise purchase
in the window $272.25 - $282.25 spot gold they
are going to make money if they can hold on for
longer than five weeks. Why do you feel you are
the only one entitled to dispense information
on this site, and to remove those people who have
exposed you for a courtroom flack? In your case,
double why, since your information is either wrong
or lifted from someone else and appropriated as
your own ( Ballard ) .

EB - Norman is stormin this time of year.

All - The less posted about extraneous issues,
the more this becomes a gold site. When new
people tune in, if the message is short and simple,
actions will be swift and sure.

Aragorn III
(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:54 - ID#212323)
Farfel... anyone ?
Farfel, surely you will have some thoughts on my 12:15 post ( new paradigm )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:55 - ID#287207)
mozel: thanks for the information. I didn't think "house to house' was an issue. If that had happened it would have been the stuff of folklore and movies.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:57 - ID#246224)
@Selby, Sam & Eldo re: confiscation (of different kinds)
Resentmentism - institutionalization of attitudes of jealousy, envy and covetousness. ( Jealousy - they don't want you to have it. Envy - they want what you have. Covetousness - they are willing to steal it from you. ) About sums it up. This is a BIG motivator at many levels in our civilization. "If you hold what you have publicly, then people in my position will take it from you." - ANOTHER. ( I believe he was speaking of mining companies, etc )

There will always be loopholes big enough to drive a truck through though. Jewelry was exempt as well as art. Once tried to post a suggestion that regilous art as jewelry is probably the safest thing at least in the USA, as it intangles many constitutional and cultural issues.

IMO the gold confiscation in the 1930's was about 'converting' the masses to an all paper money system. That has been in effect now for a long time. IMHO another confiscation in the USA is a very distant possibility but you will see it if it is coming ( via rhetoric, legislation, crisis talk, etc ) . Well enough in advance to secure your holdings. Must always keep an ear to the ground ( Cherokee would, I'm sure, confirm this ;- ) .

A small investment in materials and a little practice makes for a personal casting foundry ( just in case ) . And possibly a neat little business if things work out for the better.

Storage is a bit of a challenge but do- able with a bit of creative thinking.

All these are continencies. Possibilities are always possible, regardless of our tendency to belay the scary side of things ( or fixate on them as the case may be .. ) .

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:57 - ID#177109)
Selby: I recall stories of the seizing what we call "safety deposit boxes" in banks in this country in 1933/34. That is still done on a routine basis by tax authorities when one dies and for other suspected crimes...;- )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:57 - ID#187218)
I understand the foreign/domestic currency seperation BUT when the domestic currency is intentionally devalued ( for whatever reasons ) the folks "in- the- know" can take advantage of the local currency devaluation by utilizing the foreign exchange. This is the nature of my question.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 14:59 - ID#287207)
WetGold: Sorry I don't know the answers to you questions. Look up Bank of Nova Scotia on the internet and I suspect you will find all you need to know.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:00 - ID#298259)
Fidelity Cash Flows.....Nov 30 and Dec 31
I always find it interesting to see where the monthly money flows go or don't go:

- - - - - - - Size ( $MM ) - - - - - - -
Select Funds Nov 30 Dec 31 % chng
Retailing 180 395 +266
Leisure 153 207 +35
Food & Agri. 219 274 +25
Utilities Gwth 250 318 +27

American Gold 262 188 - 28
Prescious Metals 166 123 - 26

SE Asia 276 256 - 4
Hg Kng & China 179 180 +.5
Japan 231 217 - 6
PC Basin 228 215 - 6

7 Select Technology funds showed little change.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:00 - ID#338289)
LGB: flip, flip, flip, flip
Ah, here it is... Perspicacity: clear in statement or expression; lucid.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:01 - ID#26793)
IMF Indonesia news conference

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:02 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Ted - - Seems just a tad early for this particular run to already be over. I'll be looking for a lower entry point tonight/tomorrow to buy back in. Then we'll see. And like I said earlier, if this is all we get, then we can certainly expect a LOT lower! I think below 381 certainly puts the handwriting on the wall. That's a 66% correction point that gold is apt to do. Also an excellent place to buy back in 'should' it get there. 282.5 and 281 are support areas. Play 'em as you see 'em.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:04 - ID#298259)
Fidelity Cash Flows...correction SE Asia
276 265 - 4%

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:05 - ID#254269)
@ MoReGold and Selby; Unfortunately the situation you are going through

in Montreal is probably a "microcosm" of what can happen when a system fails. It is all built on trust and when that fails for whatever reason, then there is a problem ( and sometimes a big problem ) ,

@ Selbyt; In a perverse way it is probably a shame that searches were
not carried out "house to house" because that WOULD have caused an uproar. The fact that it was someone else's savings in a safety deposit box somewhere "took a lot of the sting out of it". Ever wonder why the
IRS lets you take a tax deduction for the cost of a safe deposit box ? Or when you cross a border, you have to fill out a Customs Declaration form ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:07 - ID#213265)
@the scene
OOPS - - 381 in las posting should certainly be interpreted as 281. Wishful thinking no doubt got in the way.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:10 - ID#373403)
Looking at the bar charts, doesn't trading yesterday and today seem much more controlled? There were such wild swings prior to yesterday in the 15 minute bars.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:13 - ID#26793)
International Monetary Conference
I heard a rumor that an international conference as big as 1944 Bretton Woods was in the works. Nothing on the web at my sources. Everyone be on the lookout.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:18 - ID#23782)
I can't find your website at
Please e- mail me at


(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:19 - ID#26793)
Could this be it? Seems like business as usual. Don't frighten 'em?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:25 - ID#22451)
Aragorn III
Your suggestions are ideal. But, let's assume that some one or some group wants to consolidate or make large conglomerates in order to further control PM's etc. By making it unprofitable for smaller, marginal or highly leveraged miners to continue to do business at these prices, opens the door for buyouts and mergers. This might explain why the price of Gold is being manipulated, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it is, by Banks forward selling.
Once they get control by these means and the monopoly is set, watch the price of Gold soar. Look how ruthless the manipulators were in S. Africa, need I say more.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:27 - ID#410194)
What a week so far!
Quite a powerful week so far in the equity markets worldwide since Monday's early morning lows.

It could have been worse:

Date: Fri Jan 09 1998 22:14
Puetz ( ) ID#222167:
Crystal Ball: This week was nothing in US stocks. Wait until next week , and the week after. 2 or 3 days of the DJIA down more than 1000 point is to be expected. The period between a full- moon and a new- moon is historically negative for a bubble- market - - once it bursts.

The full- moon on monday will be the start of the greatest stock market crash of all time. On Wall Strret Week tonight, the elves were still a bullish +4. Martin Zweig was still bullish. He believes - - as long as the Federal Reserve is easy, stocks will rise. That belief assumes that any individual entity can control the economy. If it is obvious, it is obviously wrong - - as Granville used to say. Deflation has the upper hand, and the Fed has lost control.

I'm still looking for the DJIA to crash to somewher between 2000 and 5000 before the end of January ( this year ) . Monday should be a serious down day. Maybe not 1000 points, but it could very well be.

Let it be known, I'm still very bearish on stocks, and very bullish on gold and silver.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:30 - ID#26793)
Steps to overcome growing Congressional opposition to Asian bailout

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:33 - ID#93232)
Let's meet in Jakarta for Camdessus's press conference. I'm not big on liver pate'...but I'll pour the Cuervo and help clean up the mess. Might have a problem flying out of's pretty bumpy. Let me know your schedule.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:33 - ID#254269)
@ WetGold re Devaluations; There are others on this site who understand
this better than I do, but there are normally "warning signs" that a currency is going to be devalued. One of the indicators is interest rates ( and inflation ) in the country versus other countries. In the recent Asian situation, the Malaysian Prime Minister was accusing George Soros and hedge funds of "causing" his country's problems when in fact, Soros was probably trying to take advantage of the situation. Soros probably gets a lot of flak because he is such a high profile individuall but
currency fluctuations affect tourists and manufacturing companies every day of the year. and they can be quite dramatic.. If you are an American
tourist in Asia right now, you could probably get a pretty good deal on some hotel rooms, especially in Indonesia. .

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:34 - ID#288140)
Never worried about confiscation. But you all got me a thinkin. I discovered they will all fit in the front two pockets of Levis. That means I could move them around very easily. Amazing. Now I know why I wear suspenders.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:34 - ID#269409)
@ IMF...those Nimrods!
The IMF has dropped a few notches on my "esteem- o- meter". They now release a "confidential" report ( NY Times today ) that it was a "mistake" for them to close Indonesian banks in the belief that this would "boost confidence",... now that it's apparant that the bank closings caused a run on banks!

Sheesh...and these guy's are determining the financial world's fate? Pardon me GoldBugs but could you spare a bit of room in the Lifeboat ? The Titanic hasn't sunk all the way yet... ( and besides, I really like the looks of that Babe wearing only that big Blue diamond....! )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:36 - ID#26793)
Rumors of Asian bankruptcies

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:37 - ID#426220)



The 1929- like crash in Asia is causing misery on a biblical scale, threatening the solvency of banks, stockbrokers, margin calls undermining investors, while the crackpots running the central banks raise taxes and interest rates, wreaking havoc on the middle class and poor.

If all nations printed paper money at different rates, how could there possibly be stability?

Over the millennia, gold has been the traditional receptacle for Mass Fear, along with silver and perhaps platinum. On a "spike" there is no telling how high gold might go when so many try to buy at the same time, like a herd of elephants trying to get through a revolving door at the same time.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:39 - ID#26793)
Here is rumors of Asian bankruptcies.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:40 - ID#269409)
@ Gold..Indonesia.........Hepcat & Puetz
However on the flip side, let all GoldBugs ( including me now ) take note that the panicked Indonesians are not buying Gold in their time of total meltdown..they're almost excusively buying dollars en masse!

I hate to be a U.S.ophile ( OK,OK, I love the role ) , but doesn't this response and that of the Asian markets, indicate that we will not seea massive flight to Gold as a response to currency, economic, and financial collapse?

It takes big shoulders to be the world's financial nanny... it appears AG has em....stagflation around the corner


Hepcat now bullish on Gold? WoW!!! I feel even better about my newfound bullishness only remaining reservation, is that PUETZ is bullish on the stuff and he has a virtually unbroken record as a contrary indicator!

( Where is this week's U.S. stock crash again Puetz??? )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:41 - ID#288140)
You want in my lifeboat? Got a deck of cards?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:44 - ID#269409)
@ Spcial Comment
Platinum American Eagles are our friends....

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:44 - ID#28593)
Donald, Monetary Conference ala Bretton Woods--
You can count on it. The threads of thought will be something
akin to: 'anchor to gold' ( minority view ) ; anchor to basket
of commodities ( majority view ) ; no anchor at all, but
'one theme' PR...because it's 'worked' so far...

I've noticed ( and heard ) as you, and there is a sad and
terrible kind of logic to their rationalizations- - that is,
from THEIR point of view...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:50 - ID#31868)
Regarding that dirtbag Camdesuss. Not the liver, but rather his brain. I want to eat his brain so that when it splashes through the water and slides down the porcelain getting closer to its final resting- place it will have been returned to its proper atomic structure for the entire world to see.

Don't worry about travel arrangements. Read Slaughter House 5 again

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:53 - ID#269409)
Realistic.......Gold, Silver, Stocks
Your 15:27 repost of "Puetz" predictions for this week is appreciated. I couldn't find his post , but recalled his usual Moon induced crash scenario for this week.

We MUST get Puetz to go bearish on Gold and Silver so they can rise to lofty new heights! COuld we maybe bribe him or something?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:53 - ID#213265)
@the scene
LGB - - Wonder which currency WE'LL be buying when the Tsunami comes ashore here. As in the case of everybody who holds gold in these countries, past and present, they were the very few who could protect their ASSets from their depreciating currencies. Few others would even know how to exchange their pesos, or whatever, for the 'good' currency of the day. Wonder how many of our banks carry 'other' currencies.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:56 - ID#225127)
If you believe you will be made whole? Why not put the stash in equities.
So far it has worked for the banks, saving and loans, 1987 mkt., Asia countries, Mexico. I need to change my name, maxout 100 credit cards and bet it all.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:58 - ID#254269)
Bigger trouble coming ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 15:58 - ID#269409)
@ Eldorado
Good point. Also we had an artcile in our local rag today ( San Jose Mercury news ) that all the immigrant workers will soon be expelled from all the distressed Asina countries en masse to preserve jobs for Nationals in the coming recession.

A flood of illegal immigrants on top of everything else

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:00 - ID#376309)
I would not give up just because gold closed lower today. I did buy fidelity select precious metals today at the 12:00 price. I did not buy any options and was happy to see the price come back. I real brea- out needs some time for accumulation. Even if we do go back down one more time I think that $255.00 will be it. 'IF' we get there I will be 100% invested at that point in Cash and Options positions only. Futures I will continue to trade for very short term profits only. Ever since this group was formed in April96 I have been moderatly bearish ( I Never expect this! ) saying that the funds needed to drive the price down to a very oversold point so a real rally could start. If we are not there we are very close to that point. I can honestly say "Gold is now oversold!". Can it become more over- sold? Yes. But any decline from here will simply be a gift to buy more at a cheaper price. Yes I know some of you have been saying that for a year now but this is different.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:01 - ID#31868)
I printed it out and stuck it on the wall, so when it happens we will have proof.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:02 - ID#254269)
Dow closed at 7785 (+53 points or 0.68%0, S & P 500 up 5.72 (0.60%),
30 yr. bond at 5.731 % . Volume on NYSE 588 million shares.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:02 - ID#333232)
Tangentially related

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:03 - ID#368244)
Mr. Greenspan's Comments
As you recall, not too long ago, Mr. Greenspan was talking about irrational exuberance and inflation. Now, Mr. Greenspan is using the "D" word in public. It seems obvious to me that when it became evident that inflation would not fly, in regards to the world and its markets, and that a much better case for deflation was being advanced by the media and most financial experts and economists, Mr. Greenspan decided to take THAT ball and run with it. One might ask why?? I think it's his way of giving the investors of the world one last chance to realize that things are not 'hunky- dory' and that a substantial world market correction is in order as well as inevitable.

Maybe this is Mr. Greenspan's way of trying to reduce the tremendous impact that he, as well as others, feel is certain to come, due to facts that are probably not totally clear to even us Kitcoites. I think this might further be evident due to the fact that a man like George Soros, who is world renowned for his investment strategies, is also commenting openly about the state of world affairs in a negative ( yes, even frightening ) tone.

In any case, this rhetoric is very different from what one might expect from these two men. Suffice it to say, my money is in cash, in one form or another.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:03 - ID#376309)
The below bullish comments were ONLY for gold. I have no idea what is going on with silver. Silver could easily drop 10% and still be in the middle of the range for the past three years.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:04 - ID#271215)
He is some ammo to use on each other.
These are actual lines out of OER ( Officer Efficiency Report ) - -
performance appraisal for the military:

1. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
2. Got into the gene pool while the lifeguard wasn't watching.
3. A room temperature IQ.
4. Got a full 6- pack, but lacks the plastic thingy to hold it all
5. A gross ignoramus - - 144 times worse than an ordinary ignoramus.
6. A photographic memory but with the lens cover glued on.
7. A prime candidate for natural de- selection.
8. Bright as Alaska in December.
9. One- celled organisms out score him in IQ tests.
10. Donated his body to science before he was done using it.
11. Fell out of the family tree.
12. Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming.

13. Has two brains; one is lost and the other is out looking for it.
14. He's so dense, light bends around him.
15. If brains were taxed, he'd get a rebate.
16. If he were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week.
17. If you give him a penny for his thoughts, you'd get change.
18. If you stand close enough to him, you can hear the ocean.
19. It's hard to believe that he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm.
20. One neuron short of a synapse.
21. Some drink from the fountain of knowledge; he only gargled.
22. Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.

Performance Evaluations = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - =
Quotes Taken from actual performance evaluations:

1. "Since my last report, this employee has reached rock bottom and
shows signs of starting to dig."
2. "His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiosity."

3. "I would not allow this employee to breed."
4. "This associate is really not so much of a has- been, but more of a definitely won't be."
5. "Works well when under constant supervision and cornered like a rat in a trap."
6. "When she opens her mouth, it seems that this is only to change whichever foot was previously in there."
7. "He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle."
8. "This young lady has delusions of adequacy."
9. "He sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them."
10. "This employee should go far - - and the sooner he starts, the better."
11. "This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot."

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:07 - ID#254269)
@ tolerant 1; Printed what out ?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:11 - ID#289357)
I think that ABX can cover their position, assuming they start to do it now ( and quietly ) before the sea change in outlook toward gold occurs. My thinking on this is that it will happen sometime near end of January ( near end of Ramadan ) .

You are correct; If they wait until ( as we hope ) the gold price starts rising 10, 20 bucks in a day, they may be in trouble with their covering. I bet they won't wait, but I don't have any interest either way. Sooner or later, they will have to cover those forward sales, and it will give a kick to the price

Are you listening, Barrick?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:13 - ID#28585)
Absolutely brilliant letter...if the gold mining companies were deluged with such lettters, then they might expedite a radical change in their tired old, automatic pilot, tactics of yesteryear.

Paying dividends in gold? A perfect strategy if accompanied by prominent declarations from gold producers explaining the rationale for such a radical move, e.g., announcing fears that the impending pop of the financial bubble will devalue the dollars it pays its shareholders. If such a radical shift in dividend strategy does not scare the hell out of the average, complacent American mutual fund investor collecting his wad of greenbacks, then I don't know what will.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:13 - ID#410198)
Anyone hear about this,happened last nite

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:14 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.61

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:16 - ID#31868)
Bigger trouble coming - Re: Sumitomo

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:17 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .237

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:23 - ID#375108)
PGMs White Hot
And the stocks moved today...Last I looked, PDL ( Toronto ) up 25% ; PDLCF ( Q ) up 23% , SWC up 6.9% . A nice report card, eh General? Ted: Another New Yorker, FDR, loved that Fundy- - northern Maine area. POWERFUL tides...; independent people...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:24 - ID#26793)
Silver/Gold Ratio = 49.21

Tyler Rose
(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:32 - ID#373164)
COMEX Delivery
Following up to my prior post, I called a company in Dallas ( Thanks for the tip! ) called SWEST, who told me that they didn't refine and cast gold, but gave me the number of Dillon Gage. I talked with them and they said they would buy the bar of 4 9's pure ( 99.9999 ) for $2 under Comex spot price, which would be a charge of about $208, since the bar weighs 104 oz. So, taking delivery is not as expensive as I had feared and I plan on taking delivery physically. Barb Hughes - I might even use it as a TEXAS SIZE PAPERWEIGHT in the meanwhile! ( Thanks for your help, Barb ) .

The man at Dillon Gage is sending me some info on swapping the bar for Gold Eagles, etc. He said that would be the way he would go, since it would be more manageable. That, of course, is in line with what Barb Hughes had said.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:33 - ID#26793)
Cayman Island bank failures

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:33 - ID#254269)
Is it a bird, is it a plane, no it's SuperCam to the rescue ;

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:34 - ID#269409)
@ NY Fed...CPI
Wednesday January 14, 4:05 pm Eastern Time

NY Fed sees US CPI bias nearly gone in '98- sources

By Isabelle Clary

NEW YORK, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - The Federal Reserve expected the upward bias overstating inflation in the U.S. Consumer
Price Index ( CPI ) to be nearly eliminated by mid- 1998, sources told Reuters.

``By the middle of 1998 ... five- to eight- tenths of the bias in CPI inflation, relative to 1994, will have been removed,'' New
York Fed director of research Stephen Cecchetti told the bank's annual three- day seminar on central banking, according to
sources. The sources attended the closed- door event for academics specializing in economics and finance.

``Cecchetti explained that the various adjustments made to the CPI by the ( Labor Department's ) Bureau of Labor Statistics
will largely eliminate the upward bias that was estimated at around 1.0 percent in 1994,'' one source said.

Cecchetti, an expert on inflation, is the policy advisor to New York Fed President William McDonough who also is the vice
chairman of the central bank's policy- making Federal Open Market Committee ( FOMC ) .

``Cecchetti was speaking about the sources of uncertainty the Fed has to deal with in formulating monetary policy. He made
the point that one source of uncertainty for the Fed is in the CPI and inflation measurements,'' the source said.

Cecchetti is a co- creator with Cleveland Fed economist and assistant vice president Michael Bryan, of the weighted median
CPI, a core measure of inflation that excludes any item whose performance departs from the behavior of most items.

The most common measure of underlying inflation, the core CPI, excludes only food and energy prices.

``The CPI is declining. The median CPI has shown less tendency to decline,'' Cecchetti told the seminar, according to sources.
The New York Fed chief economist noted that one difficulty for the Fed was comparing trends before and after BLS

Cecchetti also commented on the impact of the East Asian crisis - - a typical example of an exogenous shock - - on the U.S.
economy as one source of uncertainty for Fed policy.

``One must be able to quantify the effects ( of shocks ) ... In the current crisis in Asia, it's difficult to quantify the impact,''
Cecchetti said, according to sources.

The source also quoted Cecchetti as explaining that, while it is generally understood that a stronger dollar or lower growth
overseas dampens demand for U.S. exports, it was difficult to assess the net effect of these factors on growth or inflation.

The Fed has often stated that one difficulty in conducting monetary policy - - which operates with a lag - - is to anticipate
economic developments.

``Central bank policy does not have much to do with money anymore,'' Cecchetti said, according to sources. He highlighted
another key issue in current Fed policy: the loss of a tight relationship between money growth and economic activity, the
sources added.

The Fed last year officially acknowledged that it had abandoned targeting reserves and is, instead, targeting a specific federal
funds rate level.

Cecchetti also elaborated on recent changes at the Fed, including policy announcements at the end of FOMC meetings and the
size of daily open- market operations, the sources said.

Cecchetti explained, according to one source, that the increased transparency at the Fed was in part to answer the ``dynamic
inconsistency problem,'' or the situation where a central bank, like the Fed, must remain independent while, at the same time,
account to Congress for its actions.

``There is no question the Fed is ultimately accountable to Congress,'' Cecchetti said, according to the source.

Cecchetti stressed the importance of transparency as a means to resolve this issue and noted that within the Federal Reserve
System, ``there are some who believe that we should specify inflation targets,'' the sources said.

``But what should they ( targets ) look like?'' Cecchetti asked, according to the participants.

McDonough was the first Fed official to propose a specific inflation target band, and the Cleveland Fed was an early
proponent of the concept.

The New York Fed seminar, held Monday through Wednesday, included presentations on the Fed's regulatory and
supervisory role, the payments system, as well as policy and international issues.

The New York Fed had no comment on Cecchetti's presentation.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:34 - ID#390249)
Indonesian IMF news conference

Citing an unnamed negotiator, the Dow Jones Newswires reported today that the IMF and Indonesia has reached an agreement in principle on the following:

1. halt the national jet project

2. phase out government subsidies for soybeans and fuel

3. repeal the 49% limit on foreign ownership of banks.

The IMF led plan would allow the national car company to continue while government control of wheat flour distribution will be relaxed.

I'm disappointed that the car company is not dismantled. it shows Suharto is still protecting his family. Apparently, they are hoping for a consolidation in the banking sector with this change in the 49% limit as cpital requirements are to be increased June 30th.

It'll be interesting to see how the market reacts.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:40 - ID#26793)
For Japanese banks "face" may matter more than solvency

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:40 - ID#252127)

The last two sentences of this news artical are very interesting indeed.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:42 - ID#28585)
I think your conspiracy consolidation theory on the part of some major gold producer ( s ) is conceivable, yet highly unlikely. In fact, you could extrapolate your conspiracy theory to the CB's who might perceived as desiring the shut- down of the producers in order to have total monopolization of the gold supply.

However, there seems to be one substantive flaw in the logic to such a conspiracy theory. Specifically, in turning sentiment so negatively against gold, then the remaining entity ( ies ) that absorbs all the failed gold companies may end up with a de facto monopoly on SH__T. It is becoming increasingly difficult to quickly turn around the rapidly escalating negative anti- gold sentiment. By the time we reach the point of complete collapse on the part of the junior and mid- size producers, it may be impossible to effect such a rapid perceptual turnaround.

In other words, what good does it do a major producer ( s ) to have a monopoly on a metal whose value is so diminished that people begin perceiving it as having a value equivalent to a lump of coal?

If it were a CB conspiracy ( something I really doubt ) , they would have to wait 10- 15 years to exhaust the current gold supply and force the price upward. Would they be willing to hold their gold another decade or so in the face of stagnant or falling prices? Given the short- term orientation of most financial people today, I sincerely doubt it.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:43 - ID#410198)
Donald.....Thanks buddy

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:44 - ID#20783)
@Tyler Rose
Never received E- Mail but if I
had would have given you my office #.

Republic Bank, where your bar is stored
has a very large bullion department and
I'm sure arrangements could be made with
them on the exchange to Eagles
without you taking delevery. And you
would probably come out with more denero

Have delt with them for years.
Take care & good luck!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:45 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Donald - - Re Cayman: Seems that with the banks we have today, who DOESN'T need a 'stuffed mattress'! HAR!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:49 - ID#93232)
@Denton, Tejas......Onward NTSU!
Great music school...jazz band/festival...McClain's Music....What a hilarious posting @16:04...the last one, village idiot...Wow!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:50 - ID#403195)
Chas, jackboots

Chas, you have taken the post a tad seriously! We regulars here endlessly excoriate outsiders for their "paper is real" orientation. This bruised old gladiator in his battered golden helmet, stumbling about the trading arena trailing his net, saw it a giggle to translate your most excellent post into the typical "goldspeak" some here would favour. Nada mas.

= = = = =

On confiscation, we will hear a week or three of denials about confiscation in spite of the fact that "there is intense public pressure on the government to confiscate". The dollar is sinking, after all, because disloyal Canadians are selling it for gold. Then there will be a long weekend. On Monday morning we will read in the newspaper that the government has "reluctantly bowed to public pressure"; all safety deposit boxes in the country have had seals placed over the locks during the long weekend. You will then only be able to open your box in the presence of a government inspector.

The jackboots will come later: maybe the /War Measures Act/ this time can embrace retroactive legislation, presumption of guilt ( "you are guilty of possesion unless you prove you sold that gold you once bought and provide the identity of the purchaser" ) , three a.m. arrests of hard cases and confiscation of real property where the gold is not coughed up.

Nationalization of mines will follow, too. After all, this is an /emergency/ and gold is essential to the well- being of the Canadian nation. Owners of gold mines "are despicable, profiteering leeches preying upon the noble Canadian people in their moment of agony" blah, blah, blah. Payment for shares will be made, of course, at their "true value", not the market price; the free market is all wrong, the government knows the "true value" of the dollar.

Bart's business and computer records will be confiscated for "detailed examination"!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 16:53 - ID#288156)
"the bright day is done, and we are for the dark." Shakespeare
Yesterdays Hong Kong Standard had a headline, with an accompanying photo that struck even my Occidental mind with incredible force.

The headline Ive Shared with you: A Broken Promise...

But the large photo was an image that wont leave me alone. It was the picture was of two men: one, Oriental, exceedingly well- groomed, seated, back- straight, head bowed, his face lined with pain and grief ; seated next to him, facing him obliquely, was an Occidental man, suit- jacket open, slouched in his chair, looking somehow debauched, smiling widely..

It struck me as a visual metaphor of enormous strength- - a kind of litmus test- - and a harbinger of whats to come..

It must have struck others that way too, because within hours it had been replaced with a less condemning photograph of the two men.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:01 - ID#246224)
@Donald & All re: Cayman Is Monetary Authority
"Why couldn't they have done something to protect us .."

US$464 BILIION in assets.


These people ARE KILLING ME WHERE I SIT. Please stop it. I can't breath!!! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! ( gasp )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:02 - ID#254269)
Kitco is like watching a pot boil; nothing happens for ten minutes, then you

leave for two minutes and there are twenty new posts.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:04 - ID#333232)
Newbie Cheatsheet - in no particular order - open to amendment
Having little else to offer, and wishing only to enlighten the lurkers

( Jung/Bart - maybe a glossary page? )

CB = Central Banks ( Cape Breton to some )

BIS = Bank for International Settlements

POG = Price of Gold

SA = South Africa ( usually ) , South America
SEA = South- East Asia
IMF = International Monetary Fund

PM = Precious Metals
PGM = Platinum Group Metals
AU = Gold : )

AG = Silver

PT = Platinum

PL = Palladium

SDR = Special Drawing Rights

NWO = New World Order
OZ = Australia
Hepcat = you'll find out
Y2K = What some computers think of dating: January 1, 2000 Y2K year+2000

SC = spell checking ( nevermind )

Elementary Links: m3& p= Periodic+table+elements

TA = Technical Analysis :P m3& p= technical+Analysis

And what of Zimbabwe?
http://guide- SDR& col= NX& rf= i500sRD& kt= N& ak= news1486& sv= M3& lk= noframes& svx= lhs_relnews

XAU,GOX = Gold Stock indexes

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:06 - ID#20783)
@Tyler Rose
Your bar is not four nines fine.
COMEX bars are point two nines five.
( .995 )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:08 - ID#93232)
@All....I can't help but notice that StradMaster....
hasn't partcipated in the fun for a bit. I know his wife is expecting their third child within the week. Our best wishes and prayers should be with them now...what a glorious event. Like Steve in Perth, Strad is doing his part to proliferate goldbugs. Cheers!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:12 - ID#213265)
@the scene
I'm thinking that some currency turn- arounds or bounces are now at hand! Yen, SF and DM . Dollar? Some more downside coming I believe. Bonds. Probably will test 122.5 this week but I would have a hard time believing that it's all over for them yet! Next week back up. As usual, all caveats apply.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:16 - ID#215379)
double bottom
Double bottom or triple bottom, which will it be ??

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:21 - ID#333232)
http://guide- SDR& col= NX& rf= i500sRD& kt= N& ak= news1486& sv= M3& lk= noframes& svx= lhs_relnews

( Sorry - wrong URL, plus it had a - )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:23 - ID#215379)
Agree Eldorado
Rubin knows he can't let the dollar accelerate to the upside without causing a world depression..

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:25 - ID#333232)
Bart, please fix your parser ( or whatever it is that inserts a space after certain characters ) ... grumble ( giving up )

Tyler Rose
(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:26 - ID#373164)
COMEX Delivery
Barb, didn't have your e- mail address, or I would have written you. The certificate that I received ( unendorsed ) said 99.9999 fine on it. So, I assume that is what the bar will be. As I am in this for the learning experience, I would like to know more about taking coins from Republic in place of the bar. Perhaps you could post more about that. Thank you!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:39 - ID#212132)
cmh - we need more of that
and we need it more often

Hepcat - Former group- applied derisive handle,
not of the poster's choosing, although
later worn as a badge of honor for having
come through the immolation wars unscathed.

See also under DARK TIMES of Kitco.

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:41 - ID#20783)
@Tyler Rose
My E- Mail is
Give me a jingle!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:45 - ID#333232)
Just looking for where a blank character is inserted
1234567890- = qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./z

Apologies in advance.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:47 - ID#269409)
@ Homestake Mining....shares overvalued for Gold's price?
So says this brokerage...Tuesday January 13, 7:05 pm Eastern Time

RESEARCH ALERT- ABN AMRO starts Homestake Mining

CHICAGO, Jan 13 ( Reuters ) - ABN AMRO Chicago Corp said Tuesday it initiated coverage of Homestake Mining Co
( NYSE:HM - news ) with a hold rating and a fiscal 1997 earnings estimate of a $0.33 per- share loss.

- - Analysts said in a report they view the company's offer of 0.34 Homestake share for each share of Australia's Plutonic
Resources Ltd ( PLU.AX ) positively ``given that it would be immediately accretive for Homestake shareholders in addition to
our belief that Homestake's common stock is overvalued relative to current gold prices.''

- - Value Homestake common shares at about $4.50 each based on spot gold at $278 per ounce, but rate stock hold on long
term view gold prices will ``eventually'' rise.

- - Said $330 per ounce spot gold price ``reasonable'' by end of 1998.

- - Estimate a fiscal 1998 loss of $0.07 a share and a fiscal 1999 loss of $0.01 a share.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:52 - ID#333447)
Sorry. My arthritis is up today- I increased the brandy ration.

Strad Master
(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:54 - ID#250297)
Not quite yet...
STUDIO.R: As it happens, I just logged on for a few minutes and found your sweet message. No, baby hasn't arrived yet - due next Wednesday, the 20th. I'll keep everyone updated. With the two kids I do have at home in addition to my other work, I usually log on just long enough to post something and then log off again and scroll through looking for answers or comments later. Generally, I only have time to post early in the morning or late at night. I also try not to post if I don't have anyting ( I think is ) meaningful to say. Thanks so much for your prayers and kind thoughts. They are truly appreciated.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:56 - ID#333232)
URL busters
AFAICT, a blank character will be appended to these characters in the "Message" portion of your posting. ( The "Subject" field seems to leave them alone )

% & * ( ) - =

URL's containing these symbols may give end- users unexpected results...

P.S. Thank you BDV

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:58 - ID#31868)
Big Bad Mining Companies
PHILIP GAILEY: The scam that mining companies pull on taxpayers
Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 Scripps Howard

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review

( January 14, 1998 01:31 a.m. EST ) - - Sen. Dale Bumpers, D- Ark., will be leaving the U.S. Senate at the end of the year, and no one will be happier to see him go than the mining companies that have been gouging the public lands and the American taxpayer for more than a century.

Since 1990 Bumpers has led a lonely and unsuccessful fight to revise a 125- year- old law that allows mining companies to loot the nation's gold, silver and platinum reserves.

They pay no royalties on the minerals they mine, and, even worse, these companies usually stick taxpayers with the bill for the billions of dollars required to clean up the environmental damage they leave behind. And that's not all. Congress even gives these mining companies, including some that are foreign- owned, a tax break.

In the latest issue of the Washington Monthly, Bumpers writes: "It's hard to believe that at a time when the average citizen considers himself grossly and unfairly taxed, Congress would tolerate such an unconscionable giveaway of billions of dollars in minerals to some of the wealthiest corporations in the world and, through tax deductions, literally pay them to take the minerals."

Here's the deal: Under the Mining Law of 1872, intended to encourage people to settle the West, anyone can put down four stakes on a 20- acre tract of federal land and file a mining claim. There's no limit on the number of claims a person can own, and the claim will remain in effect as long as the owner pays $100 a year per claim. It gets even sweeter. The law gives people who stake these claims the option of purchasing the land for between $2.50 and $5 per acre. All they have to do is prove to the Interior Department that the land contains producible hard- rock minerals.

"According to the Mineral Policy Center," Bumpers writes, "more than 3.2 million acres of public lands packing $243 billion worth of hard- rock minerals have been patented ( or purchased ) since 1872. Yet once a claimant has been granted a patent, he is not required to mine the land he's bought. He can use it for any purpose. Patented claims have become sites for vacation home developments, junkyards, tourist traps, casinos and golf courses."

In 1989, according to Bumpers, an Oregon family "patented" 780 acres of land containing silica in the National Dunes Recreation Area for less than $2,000. Shortly after the patent was issued, "the Department of Interior decided the land, which attracts more than 2 million visitors a year, should not be mined, and sought to buy back the land. The new owners offered to sell the land back - - for $11 million."

Every time Bumpers has introduced legislation to end this great public land steal, he has fallen short of the votes needed for passage. When Bumpers leaves the Senate, it is not likely that any of his colleagues will be eager to take on this fight. And it's not just because of the campaign contributions the mining industry makes to lawmakers.

Bumpers explains: "It is certainly understandable that legislators from states in which the mining industry is a major force would be supportive of that industry. However, a large number of senators, most of whom have no mining in their states, continue to vote with the Western bloc. While the desire for campaign contributions from the mining interests is certainly one explanation for many legislators' unwillingness to reform the mining law, it is not the only one.

"The sad fact is that many members of Congress are happy to support other members' parochial interest if they feel comfortably certain that the voters back home won't know or care about the issue. It's called a "a freebie," a bad vote that has no political repercussions and which the lawmaker can cash in when he's gathering support for his own interests."

Bumpers' latest attempt to reform the mining law was last September, when his bill got only 39 votes. Among the senators who voted against his reform legislation were Connie Mack, R- Fla., Barbara Mikulski, D- Md., Richard Lugar, R- Ind., John McCain, R- Ariz., and Thomas Daschle of South Dakota, the Senate Democratic leader.

So far it has been a political "freebie" for the 59 senators who voted against the Bumpers' bill. The issue rarely comes up when they go home to assure their constituents that they are guarding public money as if it were their own, or when they take a bow for ending the federal welfare guarantee for the nation's poor.

The press has paid little attention to the issue, and too few voters either know or care about this scam. So no one is being held accountable.

With Bumpers soon to depart the Senate, the mining companies can relax. They have little or nothing to fear from this White House or this Congress. The federal budget is coming into balance, and the politicians in Washington already are arguing over how to spend the projected budget surplus. That the government is losing an estimated $100 million a year in royalties and looking at environmental cleanup costs running in the billions of dollars is of no concern.

Besides, why offend a generous campaign contributor when the voters don't seem to give a damn?

( Philip Gailey is editor of editorials of the St. Petersburg Times. )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 17:58 - ID#22451)
Reply to Farfel
My Dear Farfel,
I can not believe you believe Gold will ever equate to a lump of coal because of some bashing and manipulation of PM'S. Gold can be manipulated up as well as down.
I believe that a possible massive squeeze is being exerted on the metals for the consolidation of mining companies. When the mining companies can no longer meet operating costs and eventually interest costs, because they are capital intensive businesses, they will go hat in hand to the bankers and say, "Please save us." Most of the Gold Bugs are already ready to throw in the towel or have taken substantial losses because they never in the world believed that Gold would plunge under the current conditions.
Once these scoundrels have cornered the market for PM'S and "IF" the current chaos in currencies creates a mandate of save the world thru a one world currency, watch them finally say that the currency will be backed by Gold.
Remember what happened in S. Africa! How the Ops,D's and Rhodes conspired, murdered or did whatever they had to do to obtain wealth beyond anyones dreams. Think of the wealth they control today and for the past 100 yrs. Think of the POWER these people have.
We both know that the CB'S have been maipulating the price of Gold. Why would they debase the value of their Gold? For interest? Why, when they have debased the capital value of their Gold holdings far beyond the interest they collect. It does not make any sense, unless!!!!!!!

The Phantom

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:01 - ID#31868)
No problem. Hope ya feel better.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:06 - ID#26669)
A couple of property confiscation links.
IMHO the privilage of confiscation of subjects' property is one of the hallmarks of government. I think that gold is just a single one of many classes of assets which are subject to seizure once the government becomes non representative of its peoples' wishes. Even a republican form of government is prone to such excesses as evidenced by the 19th century US confiscation of Amerindian and Confederate property. Here are a couple of links I found on this. ( Lucky for us peons, gold is small. All it takes is a tobacco can, a spade and a walk in the park. )

Strad Master
(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:07 - ID#250297)
Warm fuzzies...
LGB: While I'm here and I see that you are too, I want to commend you on your post yesterday in which you outlined your pragmatic approach to investing. It's not that you have become bullishon gold that so many responded to positively but to your respectful and well thought out tone. Kudos!!! Now there...Doesn't it warm the cockles of your heart to read so many positive comments sent your way? ( :- ) )

I try to be as pragmatic in my investing as possible, too, and I'm certaily not wedded to any position long or short. I still maintain a relatively small short position in gold, as I ( like RJ ) am not convinced the absolute bottom is in yet. I have a much larger postion long on silver which again is starting to look better and better. At the same time, like you, I also love gold, and in additon to the little pile of Vienna Philharmonics I've got stashed away ( bought at a much higher price ) I will be long as soon as the bottom looks confirmed. Not far from here IMHO.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:10 - ID#57232)
Soros comment about future of dollar
Jack,SDRer: Jack - Your post about G Soros was very interesting. He knows exactly what will happen to the role of the US dollar as a safe haven , but he won't tell!
He is clearly not a modest person, but the comment is still interesting. Has someone told him, or has he planned out what he thinks will happen? You can bet that whatever does happen, he will do his best to be on the side of profit. As someone once said ( perhaps it was SDRer ) , the same hedge funds that went after those SEAsian countries will turn around and attack the dollar when the right time comes for that to happen.
I still have the mental image of the unhappy Oriental and the smiling Occidental that SDRer just posted about. We are talking about 1/3 or more of the world's economic system. Also the Oriental's work ethic is without compare, they save more than we do, and their children consistently excell in school. We have much to learn from them. What I am saying is that it is hypocritical of us to think that "they" did something wrong, or that "they" just don't have it right - - what happened in SEAsia will eventually happen here. We as humans on this world are no better than any other humans, and we should not take advantage of anothers misfortunes. When the tables are turned, and we are the ones suffering, will the Oriental people come to help us? I don't know. I hope so, and I hope they carry ourselves better than we have.
Hope you don't mind my soap boxing on my post to you - - I just don't like how this SEAsia "bailout" is being managed. I think it is a setup for ill feelings when SE Asia recovers ( which will be fairly quickly ) , and it is our turn. They have alot more private savings than we do, so they will come out of a depression more quickly than we will.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:18 - ID#30116)
Off gold subject- - If anybody is running Windows NT 4.0 with service pack 3 installed ( this will be the case if you have installed IE4.0 ) , DO NOT install the Microsoft "Intellimouse" driver software for the Intellimouse! NT4.0 will self destruct. You will get 'crash dump screen' and can kiss the OS good bye. THANK YOU MICROSOFT. ( Pissed off grin thingy! )

Let's see. OS from Microsoft and mouse driver software from Microsoft = CRASHED system. Maybe it is time to sell MSFT?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:18 - ID#254269)
Public holiday in Japan

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:18 - ID#427357)

What If the Dollar Just Keeps Rising?

Nationally syndicated market analyst, Rick Ackerman, shares his insights about the adverse strength of the greenback.

Business couldn't be better, consumers are as confident as they've been in years, the dollar is king and interest rates are bouncing near multi- year lows.

Not much for U.S. investors to worry about, right?

THINK AGAIN. That strong dollar, of all things, is threatening to
blight the rosy picture by destabilizing financial markets and
constricting global trade. Moreover, there is no apparent way to

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:21 - ID#254269)
No problems here !

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:24 - ID#410194)
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

Gold: Fell 2,098 troy ounces to 466,367

Silver: Rose 778,122 troy ounces to 110,861,596 - Just above a 13 year low

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:24 - ID#30116)
Gone to attempt completion of recovery? Been two days and two crash dumps already... And this is progress? Technology? If this is so, we in big heap of trouble... Robust software? Testing? Quality control? Y2K ought to be breeze in comparison... :- ) )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:27 - ID#26793)
As long as we are bashing software companies...DO NOT install Turbotax on Windows NT. It will infect other programs, ( including theirs ) and does not work on NT. How can you be a serious software company Intuit and not support NT?

Strad Master
(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:27 - ID#250297)
Since we're all in this together...
ALL: A thought occurs to me: There are so many here who use a wide variety of frudamental and technical indicators to make trading decisions. More often than not, the predictions don't pan out, but occasionally they do - quite remarkably. Since we are all PM bugs, would it not behoove us to make note of all the times a prediction comes true and the EXACT methodology that was used to arrive at the prediction. After a time, only the very best predictive methods would emerge. By doing that, we could construct a trading method that could approachthe "Holy Grail" of trading - something none of us could do alone. Whatddya think?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:28 - ID#388434)
tolerant1: Now for the other side . . .
Congressional testimony regarding the Mining Law of 1872 . . .

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:29 - ID#227122)
Soros comment
I think you should read it again - there's more than a little sarcasm there.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:33 - ID#210114)
Suckers Rallies and Dead Cat bounces.
Not much hope around is there? Suckers Rallys of early October and Xmas week. Dead cat bounce yesterday on Au.

$280ish range looks like its gonna hold for a while.

Think of all that money I could be earning interest at the bank instead of in bullion.

Hmmm life's like that.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:33 - ID#238295)
LGB bullish
LGB: Over time I have learned to greatly respect your investment opinions even when I disagree. The fact that you have finally turned bullish on gold after staying correctly bearish for many months is a matter of no small significance.

In retrospect I turned bullish on gold much too soon because I did not forsee the extent to which deflationary forces would come to dominate the global economy and financial markets. I do not think it is a coincidence that gold and Asia crashed at the same time.

The Morgan Stanley upgrade of ABX is very significant. They are not fools and they are not goldbugs. But they do recognize value when they see it.

Gold stocks did very well today considering that bullion fell $1.40. I'm not sure we have seen the final bottom, but if we haven't - - I doubt it will be much below $278.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:35 - ID#347457)
@chm on URL busters
chm: I am not sure that Bart and his crew can do anything about it. It's not a space character interested into posted URL links, it's a carriage return triggered by formatting of long lines. URL is a continuos string of character and if it is too long, formatting of message tries to break it over two lines. It uses a special characters ( mostly "- " ) as a break point and server inserts a carriage return. When you click on this URL link, it picks up only first part of URL link and browser returns message "object not found" or something like that.

This formatting does not apply for a header line which has a limit of 100 characters instead of 78 ( ? ) for line in a body of the message.

to avoid it ( not always possible ) start URL links at the beginning of line ( hit carriage return before pasting URL )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:37 - ID#31868)
Thanks. I posted the story on Nando as I find the timing and such to be too much of a coincidence. If it is not one thing it is another relative to mines, mining and precious metals.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:39 - ID#410194)
Trend change in currencies?
An imminent upturn in the European currencies along with major bottoms in the Japanese Yen and Canadian Dollar?


Date: Wed Jan 14 1998 09:27
cherokee__A ( @- - - - gravitational- forces- on- earth- - - - - - discussed- and- archived- - - - on- kitco- - - - - last year.... ) ID#344308:

ted- -

don't be fooled by the c$.....europe's curriencies are
in line for a hit, as well as all north american represenatives....

where is this volcano located? sure is coincidental to have
so many signal from so many places - - - - - - vulcan cometh...

the recent postings regarding LUNAr gravitational forces in
feb being the strongest in 20 years......and the possibility
of an increase in temblors.........i submit it will be vulcan
who comes- a- callin- - - - - - - - the cycle dictates all......

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:41 - ID#26793)

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:46 - ID#263153)

Volume of soothing assurances times depth and breadth of

crisis equals actual need to worry in inverse correlation.

Magnitude and velocity of domestic equity market moves

positively correlated to issuance of 'not- to- worries' when

negative in direction and negatively correlated when positive

in direction, both phenomena mutually exclusive to the truth.


Assurances X need = reciprocal function where truth is

the null factor.

The resultant hysterical, er, historical decoupling of the

bond market, where fear meets its weaker face, greed, is left

for another class. You will be tested.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:51 - ID#347457)
@Spock and Suckers Rallies
Spock, I think we are reaching a "twilight zone" where everything is hanging over the cliff and will fall off the cliff or take off to fly away. I mentioned that about a week ago I moved my money from PM mutual funds back to "regular stox" funds. I may burn myself, but for a time being it pays off. I am waiting for a definite up- trend to go back to PM. What I am trying to say, at this point of time there is not much definite direction in any markets and any way you play it may be "right " or "wrong". So your comment that you may be earning interest on some other investment may be true, but I am not sure for how long. At this point of time, only person who is not a gambler is a person holding cash ;- )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:56 - ID#432148)
I think I have the answer to whether the US gets help from Asia when we need it: NEGATIVE! Do you remember any help being given from anywhere during the depression? I do. NONE. Yes, they had their own problems, but not to the extent we did. Uncle Sam seems to be the great giver. How many paid the loans made in WW I? ONE: FINLAND. God bless them. When the Russians invaded Finland we should have been right at their side but we forgot. Shame on us.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 18:59 - ID#26793)
Camdessus praises Korean gold scam

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:00 - ID#432148)

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:01 - ID#288157)
US envoy lauds SAR for rate defence
Hong Kong Standard, Thur Jan 15, 1998

A visiting senior American official has praised Hong Kong
for its ability and skill in repelling attacks on its currency. In talks
on Wednesday with Chief Executive Tung Chee- hwa and
Financial Secretary Sir Donald Tsang Yam- kuen, United States Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers said: ``The Hong Kong authorities have very well demonstrated that they have the capability, determination and the skill to carry out their declared policy with regard to the exchange rate.'' Full Story

HSBC's exposure said to be $250m
HongkongBank is estimated to have a $250 million exposure in
collapsed Peregrine Investment Holdings, but this is not
expected to adversely affect the bank's financial position,
analysts said. They said the magnitude of HongkongBank's
loss from its loan to Peregrine will depend ultimately on how its
loan to the failed group is structured. The structure of the
loan will also determine if HongkongBank will eventually
be forced to write off the loan or not, they said.

Money has certainly changed- - nowadays no matter how much they
lose, it doesn't "adversely affect the bank's financial position".
Now THAT'S the kind of money to have:- ) ) )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:02 - ID#26793)
Koreans fearful gold sale will hurt prices

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:02 - ID#348286)
@Comments from Steve Kaplan - LBMA DAILY TURNOVER 43.7 Million Ounces !!!.
The South Korean government announced Wednesday that they may purchase the gold which is being collected through a public campaign, rather than selling it. According to Yoon Jong- hwa, an economic secretary at the presidential Blue House, "Considering falling international gold prices, it probably would be better to keep them for now. You can sell them later, when the prices are higher. Since gold at the central bank is also considered as foreign reserves, keeping the gold could be as good as exporting them for dollars." [I'm almost prepared to retract my previous scathing remarks about the recent actions of Korean officials.]

The London Bullion Market Association announced that its average daily turnover was 43.7 million troy ounces of gold ( about 1350 tonnes daily ) in December 1997, up from 40.8 million in November 1997, and up almost 47% from the 29.8 million ounces in December 1996. To put this in perspective, the average daily volume on this London exchange is about 3.5 times the total net central bank sales for all of 1997 combined.

Reports from Asia indicate that investors are paying three to four times the normal premium above spot for refined gold bars, indicating strong physical demand.

Due to the low gold price, Glamis Gold of Canada is reducing its total employment by 35% . When its Picacho mine in California ceases production in March those workers will be let go.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:03 - ID#401460)
CNBC News Release!
Another Clinton Cabinet member under investigation, former Sec. of Labor Harmon, I think.

Is there anybody in this administration that is clean?

Hillary was under questioning today, Whitewater and the thef of FBI files.


(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:06 - ID#26793)
Korean gold collections at 40 tons

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:11 - ID#26793)
CFTC increases surveillance of silver market for manipulation

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:12 - ID#288295)

Trevor Newton, webmaster at ( another resource- oriented site ) is creating a SILVER BUG'S CORNER just for iinformation relative to our small but not insignificant species, and asked for my input as to what information the silver bugs would like to have there, such as silver stock input from Pennaluna ( specialty silver broker ) , links, discussion areas, silver supply/demand fundamentals,whatever you would like. You can direct the show.

Do me a favor, silver bugs - give Trevor your input. Let's get the word out elsewhere, as well as on this great forum; it is in our own interest!

Send comments to

and you may say I referred you if you wish.


Tom Hixson

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:14 - ID#12388)
Realistic - Comex warehouse stocks
Where can one find historical Comex warehouse data ? Thanks.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:15 - ID#26793)
Mexico hurting from lower oil prices (Anothers must be hurting too)

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:24 - ID#269191)
Nobody catches a bottom except by luck. So I think they are taking
a big risk. They better start now because its going to take some time
to cover such a large position. I read they have an $800 million unrealized gain and that was when gold was $320 per oz.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:27 - ID#333447)
Thanx. I feel great now.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:30 - ID#238295)
changing opinions
Glenn: You seem to have radically changed your take on the gold market. A few weeks ago you were predicting a big smash in January. Now you are cautiously optimistic. Why the change of heart?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:33 - ID#333447)
Retearivs, your last to me
Great post. Got a bunch of laughs. I guess my brandy ration kicked in after I posted. Still there's that thing lurking in the back of my mind.
The only answer I have has to be conveyed on a secure line. Thanx

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:41 - ID#269191)
Preliminary 1997 gold stats.
From Gold Fields Mineral Services:

Fabrication Demand 3,750 tons ( 14% ahead of 1996 )
Mine Supply 2,402 tons ( Record despite lower prices )
Gold Loans 504 tons
Net Central Bank Sales 393 tons
Scrap 800 tons ( my estimate taken from other sources )

Add it up. No wonder we had lower prices. My prediction: Fabrication
demand will rise to 4000 tons in 1998 and mine supply drop to 2000 tons.
If scrap stays the same ( it will more likely drop because of low prices ) ,
gold loans increase to 600 tons and Central Bank sales are around 400
tons, we should see higher prices.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:42 - ID#220325)
What is RSI please
Oldman spoke of RSI"s in relation to put/call ratio. Could someone please tell me what the indicator stand for and where to find it? Thank you.
(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:42 - ID#432137)
Paul Erdman, for CBS MarketWatch htx/http2_mw

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:47 - ID#24095)
@overnight markets
Feel like Sisyphus...but Feb. gold once again climbs over 283.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:52 - ID#263153)
Miro ( @LGB and WetGold on reporting requirements for coin purchases )


Folks, something does not sound right about reporting requirements for coin purchases under $5,000. If coins can be bought under IRA ( according to new tax law ) this purchase has to be

reported! IRS would not let you take a tax advantage without dealer reporting your purchase. If they have to report this type of purchase,

I would question a privacy of any purchase, if for no other reason, dealers accounting and dealing with IRS may be too complicated to keep separate books.


Couple notes from a brochure picked up at a local coin shop

titled American Eagle Bullion Coins published by the U.S. Treasury

Dept. and United States Mints with official logos.

"An easy way to add gold to your portfolio is to invest in

legal tender bullion coins."


"American Eagles can help you reach your long- term retirement

goals, too. They are the only gold and silver coins the U.S. Government

will allow to be used to fund Individual Retirement Accounts."

The date of the brochure is 5/94.
(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:54 - ID#432137)
snowbird's hunt for RSI
Relative Strength Index
look for/search - charting/trading books, magazines, web- sites; at your library, & on the net

(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:54 - ID#93232)
What does Sisyphus feel like? I think I may have it, which probably explains a lot of things.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 19:55 - ID#212132)
Spanky, if you go to
and enter "gold price" in the search engine, you will
see what we are up against ( you only need to look at
the first 20 entries, although the next 100 are mildly
entertaining, I learned a lot about fake nuggets by
following the "RE: Selling My Gold" thread. Also, the
"Gold at Half- Price" entries appear to lead you to a
dead- end ) . In order for gold to go up in price, gold
must first go up in price. This is the only thing that
will change the common man's perception about what type
of investment gold is currently.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:01 - ID#243212)
MoReGold @ 19:03 - LBMA DAILY TURNOVER 43.7 Million ounces!!!
That's all PAPER gold!!! We need to TAKE DELIVERY of the PHYSICAL gold away from the BANK VAULTS so they can't lend out a MULTIPLE of PAPER gold against the PHYSICAL gold on deposit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Bankers are bankers; and they make loans on a bank reserve system basis, e.g. they make $20 of loans for every $1 on deposit with them. Who is there to say that they don't lend out $20 in PAPER gold for every $1 in

PHYSICAL gold that they hold in deposit?????? How can you otherwise reconcile 30- 40 million ounces of PAPER gold traded on the London market alone DAILY ( times 250 trading days in a year makes the value traded in a year equal to $2 trillion ) with the 8000 tons lent by CB's valued at $100 Billion or with the total above- ground PHYSICAL gold of 100,000 tons valued at roughly $1 trillion only. Is the total PHYSICAL gold traded MANY times over in a year in London alone???? Hardly!!!

Ask the ladies in India how many times a year they trade in their jewelry !!! How much PAPER gold is traded in N.Y., Sydney and Hong Kong and Zurich??? You can clearly see that the PAPER gold is a MULTIPLE of the PHYSICAL gold and that the bankers did it again, i.e. lent something like $20 of PAPER gold out against every $1 of PHYSICAL GOLD on in their vault!!! Get this:

1 ) The POG is controlled primarily by the trading in derivatives/PAPER GOLD!!!

2 ) The POG control will remain until it is unravelled through taking of DELIVERY OF ACTUAL PHYSICAL GOLD and PUTTING IT IN PRIVATE INVESTOR



(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:03 - ID#288295)

I don't know enough about the internal workings of forward sales, whether they are done strictly on the futures markets or done also privately. Maybe one of our futures trader friends can help us out on this.

Let's see - if ABX has an $800 MM unrealized gain @ $320 gold, and ( just for argument ) let's say their avg selling price was $400.

That means they have $800 MM/ ( 400- 320 ) $/oz or 10 MM ounces sold forward. HELP somebody! Is it easy to lay this off with options, or to cover it directly?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:08 - ID#376309)
old gold
Just too many people were claiming that the old low's of '85 were the spot to buy gold. Also copper and the CRB continued down. not good. THis recent move down was needed to shake the week new longs out, just as today's move down did. As I stated several hours ago, do not be upset that gold closed lower today. It was actually more bullish than if it closed up alot. Anyway I'm bullish now, but I still can not rule out $255.00 during the first half of this year. I really will feel better after I see the COT report this weekend.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:08 - ID#333131)
OK Strad Master, get out your resin stick and mark these down
Indicators I use for the direction of Mr. Gold Market: 1. The direction of the dollar index. 2. The rate of change of the gold stocks relative to spot. If the gold stocks are moving at a rate more than 3 times the rate of spot movement, the direction will lead gold. 3. The rate of change in inflation relative to the previous year's month. Notice this isn't the rate of inflation, it is the rate and direction of change in inflation ( second derivative of prices ) . Right now I'm looking for a roll over in the dollar index which will change the direction of Mr. Gold.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:10 - ID#347447) that you????
The entry, the post, by Bernatz de that true? Can it be? NO! I say NO! Zees eez not ze Bernatz I know. What gives here?

Nayvair mind zee gold, Nayvair mind Zee silvair...we want to know..."Where is Zee Real Bernatz...what have you done to heem?

Mike Sheller
(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:12 - ID#347447)
I repeat...
What geeeeves here?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:14 - ID#31868)
these people make me sick
Wednesday January 14, 7:47 pm Eastern Time

U.S. readies global initiative on Asia crisis

( Recasts with Treasury confirmation )

By Gene Gibbons

WASHINGTON, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - The United States is laying the groundwork for a major international meeting of finance ministers to discuss new initiatives to deal with Asia's financial crisis, the Treasury Department said on Wednesday.

In announcing the U.S. move to help contain the crisis, a Treasury spokeswoman said: ``The United States plans to convene a meeting of finance ministers from key countries around the world to explore implications of the current financial situation in Asia and ways to deal with these challenges.''

``We are in the process of consulting with the G7 ( group of major industrialized nations ) and other countries to look at possible approaches going forward,'' she said.

The spokeswoman declined to give a date for the planned meeting or say whether it could be held as part of a scheduled meeting of G7 finance ministers in Britain in late February.

But she said it was part of an initiative presented by President Bill Clinton at last November's Asian Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vancouver, at which he announced setting an agenda for the ``international financial system in the 21st century.''

The Treasury statement followed a Reuters report earlier on Wednesday which quoted a senior U.S. official as saying the Clinton administration was working with its allies to convene such a meeting with the aim of strengthening the international financial system in response to Asia's turmoil.

The official, who asked not to be identified, said the meeting was likely to take place ``in the next month or two'' and would not be confined to the Group of Eight - - the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and Russia.

``I think what you'll eventually see is a meeting of a certain number of industrialized nations ... more than a G8 and less than a huge group,'' the official said.

The planned initiative by the administration came amid growing opposition in Congress from both Republicans and Democrats to committing U.S. taxpayer money to bailing out Asian countries, which some lawmakers accuse of profligate, corrupt, incompetent and repressive policies.

Congress is at loggerheads with the Clinton administration not only after blocking extra money for the International Monetary Fund, which has led Asian bailouts of more than $100 billion, but also concerning funding for the United Nations.

Congress raised the pressure on the administration on Wednesday with the House Banking Committee announcing it will send a high- level delegation to Asia and summon Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers - - currently on a mission in Asia - - and Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan to testify on Jan. 30 on the turmoil.

Also, the second- ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives, David Bonoir, announced on Wednesday he would oppose any bailouts that hurt workers in Asia.

Leaders of major industrial countries agreed at their 1995 summit in Halifax, Canada, on reforms of the IMF including a system that was supposed to give early warning of financial crises. But critics now say the reforms were woefully inadequate and failed to forestall the crisis.

Asked if an effort was under way to put together a ``Halifax II'' package of financial reforms, the senior official responded: ``Yes.''

The senior official said the prospective meeting to address the crisis would ``talk about transparency, talk about the international financial institutions and talk about what kinds of rules, regulations, reporting standards and so forth should be attempted.''

The official also said Clinton was being urged by some advisers to take a ``very, very hard'' line on both money for the IMF and the United Nations when he makes his State of the Union speech to Congress on Jan. 27.

In his speech, Clinton is expected to ``make a major pitch for our involvement in this ( restoring stability in Asia ) ... and he will link it to support which was denied last year for the IMF in general and for paying off our U.N. dues,'' the official said.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:19 - ID#252150)
Realistic Re: Puetz
There is a method to his madness. All he needs is 1 of his wild predictions to come true & he'll have it made. He'll be in demand on CNBC & flogging books everywhere. Hopefully no one will have the temerity to question his previous 439 predictions.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:23 - ID#253246)

cool lurk
(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:25 - ID#147100)
Dear Mr. Sheller
My loving nephew, Bernatz de Ventadorm, was killed in a rockyslide. May he rest in peace.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:32 - ID#253246)
Asia Gold Comments / Mr. William Fleckenstein Director / PAASF

checkout william fleckenstein's comments at:


(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:32 - ID#243212)
MoReGold @ 19:03 - LBMA DAILY TURNOVER 43.7 Million ounces!!!
That's all PAPER gold!!! We need to TAKE DELIVERY of the PHYSICAL gold away from the BANK VAULTS so they can't lend out a MULTIPLE of PAPER gold against the PHYSICAL gold on deposit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Bankers are bankers; and they make loans on a bank reserve system basis, e.g. they make $20 of loans for every $1 on deposit with them. Who is there to say that they don't lend out $20 in PAPER gold for every $1 in

PHYSICAL gold that they hold in deposit?????? How can you otherwise reconcile 30- 40 million ounces of PAPER gold traded on the London market alone DAILY ( times 250 trading days in a year makes the value traded in a year equal to $2 trillion ) with the 8000 tons lent by CB's valued at $100 Billion or with the total above- ground PHYSICAL gold of 100,000 tons valued at roughly $1 trillion only. Is the total PHYSICAL gold traded MANY times over in a year in London alone???? Hardly!!!

Ask the ladies in India how many times a year they trade in their jewelry !!! How much PAPER gold is traded in N.Y., Sydney and Hong Kong and Zurich??? You can clearly see that the PAPER gold is a MULTIPLE of the PHYSICAL gold and that the bankers did it again, i.e. lent something like $20 of PAPER gold out against every $1 of PHYSICAL GOLD on in their vault!!! Get this:

1 ) The POG is controlled primarily by the trading in derivatives/PAPER GOLD!!!

2 ) The POG control will remain until it is unravelled through taking of DELIVERY OF ACTUAL PHYSICAL GOLD and PUTTING IT IN PRIVATE INVESTOR



(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:41 - ID#252150)
Silverbaron Re: ABX fwd sales
I agree that they are very unlikely to get caught napping if POG takes off. Munk is on record as stating that $150 is a possibility. No doubt the odds of that are infinitesimal. Albert Friedberg,who is considered by many pros to be 1 of the canniest commodity/currency analysts around thinks that it could take up to 2 yrs before the fit hits the shan & AU reasserts itself. I have no idea when the big move will start but sold 1/2 my ABX this morn & will be satisfied with a quick 10% here & there.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 20:51 - ID#364147)
For Bernatz
Feb. gold up .80 @ 283.20

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:12 - ID#426220)

TODAYS HEADLINES: Lenders are not blameless, say World Bank, IMF


Dr. Paul Hein explains the significant difference between the real devaluation of a currency versus its change in parity with the dollar. It is indeed an interesting distinction - which at least to me - not readily apparent. Dr. Hein uses the rapidly wasting away of the Indonesian rupiah as a perfect example.

Dr. Hein also blames greedy international bankers for the Asian currency chaos - - by overloading the Tiger economies with loan money that could not be put to effective and productive use to generate enough cash flow to pay on- going interest, and eventually loan amortization. Once the hapless country is unable to service burgeoning loans, the IMF is called in to administer the coup- de- grace in the form of chokingly stringent economic restrictions.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:13 - ID#333447)
Brandy ration too much.Check you tomorrow. Thanx.

Grant Dinse__A
(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:15 - ID#428239)
Oil & Gas/Energy Site wanted
Is there a site like Kitcos great site, but relating to Energy? If yes, please Email me the details to -, thanks

Mr. Mick
(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:24 - ID#345321)
Confiscation? Someone said once that Rockefeller and the big boys
kept numismatics, etc. and that they were therefore "exempt" from confiscation. Any truth to that rumor? Or was it just because they were wealthy?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:24 - ID#339274)
FWIW XAU closed the opening gap,ABX relative stronger
than other gold producers,go long on 17 1/2.,stop 17
ASA on the hourly chart gives a nice head and shoulder
config buy at the opening stop 20.Bank stocks very weak
at the close.Interest rates going up in deflationary times

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:26 - ID#212132)
Ted - you wouldn't believe the password I got assigned
I have decided that the overnight prices
are false leads, but I'm glad to see it

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:28 - ID#310407)
@ Strad, OldGold, et al
Thanks for the kind words. Yes I admit it's nice not to be the parhiac "Howard Stern" of the site for a change.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:32 - ID#333447)
agreeeeeeeeeeed, agreed. Re confab.Gone to the sack.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:36 - ID#212132)
LGB - (Although I don't think it will) I would like nothing more than to see silver go to
$6.50 or higher real soon, only because there is this stupid doofus
butthole named DONDI3 over on rec.collecting.coin who was bragging
on Monday because he sold all his silver above $6.00. When I saw that
post, I knew silver was done falling.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:38 - ID#28585)
Pete, the conspiracy scenarios you spin are not inconceivable. However, I do not believe there is a world- wide CB conspiracy. Certainly, I would not be surprised to learn that countries such as Belgium, Netherlands, and Switzerland are acting upon some joint master plan related to the imminent creation of the Euro. ( Scare the price of gold down, then re- accumulate in advance of the formal unveiling of the new ( initially gold- backed ) Euro...certainly, given the recent macro- economic studies conducted in the U.S. examining the effects of the Euro ( gold- backed and not ) on the American dollar, there is reason to believe the government is somewhat concerned about the exact nature of the Euro's ultimate incarnation.

However, many other CB's are pursuing strategies that do entail sales or significant loans of gold. In fact, various CB's are in an accumulative mode where gold is concerned.

As for a major gold producer conspiracy to force consolidation and absorption of medium and junior gold producers...again, I doubt it...ultimately, the price of gold is really determined by CB actions ( although I firmly believe producers have the ability to influence CB strategies, especially through a dramatic cutback in supply ) . Therefore, even if consolidation left the world with a gold cartel or even just one major producer, the CB's can still move the gold price around independent of the actions of the new oligopolistic or monopolistic gold supplier.

Basically, I am not a big believer in conspiracy theories ( the Rothschilds and all this other anti- semitic nonsense ) . It is just too damn hard to get disparate individuals, corporations, or national units to agree on joint economic activities in an economically selfish world.
Even the De Beers cartel is having troubles maintaining a solid front where diamonds are concerned.

However, what I do believe in are the concerted propaganda efforts of certain groups to make markets move in certain directions. This belief stems from my conviction that people, corps., etc. are much better at sending joint ideological messages than in creating real, tangible economic conspiracy in the form of sales and purchases.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:39 - ID#257136)
SELBY @ Gold confiscation....
then as compared to now and near future!

I too have not known of any specific instances where gold was forcefully taken from the homes of citizens.
Ya gotta remember that the average citizen then was much more in awe of gubmnt than are we contrarians of today! They also did not have nearly such munificence as have we.
The whole point is that they were s****d over by USG then by relatively gentle agents. Not quite the same as the anii agents of this era!

To do it today, the hired guns of the IRS, ATF FBI DEA CIA NSA, ad nauseum would be given blanket orders, already covered by the executive orders of Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Nixon,

The orders would be to "sweep every dooryard" most especially those of known tax rebels, gold bugs, libertarians, secessionists, etc.

With the turn of mind the army of today possesses, Waco would appear as a blip on a large screen, compared to what could happen as agents move against gold possessors.
You'd be able to see the conflagration from 400 miles up, much as we watched the fires in OZ a couple months ago.
There are many means by which oro puro can be concealed. Just think on it.
Remember the "Purloined Letter" by Edgar Allen Poe? Use that technique!

Firearms and reloading equipment can be relatively well concealed also. Just think on it!
Consider the limited knowledge and experience of many of our troops.

Any object buried beneath such as an old engine block or any other dense metallic object is nearly inpossible to differentiate from the bulk of the body above it. and on and on and.......

I personally own no bullion except for silver coins pre 1964. All else is numismatic or Swiss annuities denaminated in Francs. Gold and silver shares. FMCG, SSRIF SFSLVF FSC SNF and several losers too!

I am not as worried 'bout confiscation as I am about being turned out along with the rest of the populace and forced to watch as a concerted search for any "contraband" is conducted in each neighborhood.

BTW. Some religious groups have been warning their members and all else who would listen to store a year's supply of food. Ammo and clothing and fuel, etc.
Were you aware there are already laws on the federal books against hoarding? A hoarder is a CRIMINAL in the eyes of the sheep, lemmings and grasshoppers which have failed to provide for themslves and their own. They would joyously turn you in!

Another aside: I 've been told that quite a large number of wealthy elitists have purchased land in
West Texas where they have access to oil, water, oil refinery capability etc. 2000 and more acre estates. 10 to 12 foot high walls surrounding their living compounds.
Like rich Road Warriors.
Or European colonists in Africa, Indonesia and africa.
Do they know something we don't?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:39 - ID#35767)
Do you still support Clinton's IMF and UN policy. I agree with you we aint given em enuf. Hows the weather up in CB. I visited a CB web site and noted a 3100 sq foot house on a six acre island for only 177k US. It looked unbelievable. How can you leave/ Whats in Maine/ More Geo Mitchells? No casinos in Maine either.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:42 - ID#28585)
SHould read..."Many other CB's are pursuing strategies that do NOT....."

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:46 - ID#310407)
@ StradMaster........Investment predictive systems
Strad, re your post where you said "There are so many here who use a wide variety of frudamental and technical indicators to make trading decisions. More often than not, the predictions don't pan out, but occasionally they do - quite remarkably. Since we are all PM bugs, would it not behoove us to make note of all the times a prediction comes true and the EXACT methodology that was used to arrive at the prediction. After a time, only the very best predictive methods would emerge."

OK, ignoring for a moment the ALMOST Freudian slip in your first sentence which my eyes first saw as "fraudumental".... ( he he ) I have an idea for the most accurate possible predicitve tool we've seen on Kitco to date. That is of course, looking to the markets to move in the opposite direction of whatever Puetz predicts.. ( oops, and I was being such a good LGB till now..jus can't help myself, it builds up and has to be released ya know! )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:50 - ID#288295)
Mr. Mick and a.j.

Mr. Mick - Numismatics were not covered by the confiscation order. I think the feds didn't want the hassle over rare coin valuation vs. bullion.

a.j. - You neglected to mention the ease with which the US government could seize gold bullion coins held in IRA depository accounts. This could be done with the stroke of an electronic pen, and the owner would have no recourse...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:51 - ID#310407)
@ Bernatz/Hep.....Silver
Yes, I must agree I hope it will climb as well. The inventory increase today did not warm my heart. The next few weeks will tell us one way of the other I think, whether the COMEX inventory issues has been simple manipulation.

Seems to me like folks here are split about 50/50, as far as those closest to the actual trading like RJ and Realistic. I'm bullish but I won't hesitate to move out if the inventory picture suddenly and miraculously goes into reversal mode.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:54 - ID#364147)
ROR.......according to environment Canada the weather in CB is--------

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:56 - ID#398105)
farfel................. going FARFETCHED...................AGAIN !!!!!!!!

I'm sure that Wenner Nenneker agrees with with!? What is a mere US$353 million dollar default between friends!

Even although we are "Down Under", we do look at things the right way up.
Does the Pegasus situation in Aussie reflect American industry in general? Surely not all Americans are that incompetent. Or are they?

Aye, Haggis........... where is that Claymore........

(Wed Jan 14 1998 21:59 - ID#364147)
and YOU know--------------
I don't support Clinton,IMF or the UN so don't try and jerk my chain...You had your chance to buy my house- - - - you blew it!!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:01 - ID#364147)
Where the hell ya been?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:02 - ID#288295)
Queensland Gold Bull Notes

I remember sometime ago ( before POG collapse ) the newsletter Strategic Investment was touting a yield- bearing instrument tied to the price of gold.

Can any of our Australian friends give us an update on these? ( if they are worth investigating )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:04 - ID#335190)
Fast Track @ MAI-SDR --What is best for Corporate USofA, is also the best for the "We The People"
January 14, 1998
White House regrouping for new fast track effort

WASHINGTON, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - The Clinton administration is regrouping from last year's defeat on "fast track""trade authority and crafting a new proposal aimed at winning enough votes to pass, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

It was hoped the fate of fast track could be resolved before President Bill Clinton traveled to Santiago, Chile in April for a summit of western hemisphere nations, said a White House aide, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"We hope the issue will be resolved before the Santiago summit," the aide said.

However, Commerce Secretary William Daley told reporters an expected struggle in Congress over the U.S. role in an Asian financial bailout and funding for the International Monetary Fund could sidetrack efforts to pass a trade bill. CLINTON- 1STLD.html

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:05 - ID#398105)
Clean (Gold potential in India) ...............

My principal reference is..............

Naqvi and Rogers, 1987
Prcambrian Geology of India.
Oxford Univ Press,
New York, 223 pages

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:15 - ID#93232)
@Cousin Bernatz...Your Auntie Lurk has three words for you....
Buy Gold.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:17 - ID#28585)
Ol Haggis...for some strange reason, you seem to almost pray that Pegasus liquidates itself. What happened? Did the company fail to hire you or something? Did the president, Nennecker, say bad things about your mom?

Personally, I don't give a damn one way or another. On a grander humanitarian level, I hope it survives for the sake of the many people who will be put on the street should liquidation occur.

If there is one thing I have developed over the years, it is a certain expertise in knowing how corporations deal with huge debt...especially bank syndicate debt. You have suggested Pegasus has a gold loan....when it fact it does not. What other misinformation about the company do you wish to send into the market?

Hey, maybe you're spreading all this disinformation because you are a proxy acting on behalf of the dreaded Rothschilds....trying to drive the equity down to the ground so you can pick it up for cents on the dollar.
Next thing I'll discover that you pray at the same synagogue as the Rothschilds....and that you're circumcised to boot!!! ( Oh, horrrors of horrors!! ) ( Remember, folks, this is a sarcastic paragraph )

I can name you all variety of corporations that had astronomical debts and survived them. It would be a shame if Pego is one of the exceptions given that it is a victim of a macro- factor beyond its control, i.e., the
recent collapse in the POG.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:18 - ID#212132)
Ted - I've been reading "Oh Pioneers!" by Willa Cather
and wondering if I should bite on the Pack winning
by 37 or more points at 15 to 1 odds. Anybody have
the payoff for a straight- up "Packers win" bet?
I remember the year Dallas beat Pittsburgh that some
guy placed a huge bet in Vegas ( like 1 million to
win 1.2 million, or somesuch ) . I want to be that guy.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:20 - ID#31868)
I think plenty of Americans own weapons. Like Charlton Heston said "the second amendment is the most important, because without it the rest of them don't amount to much."

The USG has put itself in between a rock and a hard place. IMHO the USG will be far different in a mere 5 years than it is now. There will be no search of homes, and there will not be a second round of treason even by the dirtbag currently in the White House. There will be no confiscation.

There will be a civil war before the USG confiscates anything. IMHO

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:20 - ID#261267)
real scary theory!
Since this is one of the best conspiracy thoery places I've found on the net...."Killer flu bug could be likely in future!" For all the millineum
scares this one could one day be for real. I wonder what a major worldwide plague would do for gold. Gold holders could be rich if they
live through it.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:21 - ID#212132)
One thing that would be nice to compile at this site
Is a list of handles and who posts under these handles.
Not that we would be any closer to the truth, but we
would unwrap one more layer.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:22 - ID#286199)
You got that exactly right.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:27 - ID#212132)
Anybody ever wander over to the Classified's site
and wonder how safe it would be to send money
to anyone posting from ""? The most
recent post is from somebody named "AKA STASH"

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:32 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Working backwards through the 'scene':
Bernatz - - I'm on AOL while at home. My child likes it. In any case, I don't ask for cash. I only ask for ThingS of substance; metals!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:33 - ID#212132)
Studio R., I changed my name from "de Ventadorm" to "du Ventadorm"
because it makes a better anagram, namely:

Tarzan Bent Over Drum

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:36 - ID#212132)
I don't have anything against AOL,
just how easy it is to obtain free air time using it.

Was it someone here who posted the story about the
scam operation that called themselves "Fly by Night"
and wrote a slew of bad checks, many of which were

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:38 - ID#257136)
Bernatz: Yeah and we'd tell our true occupations too!
I noticed your first posting on return did a good job of venting the dorm. As on saturday a.m. in a frat house when windows have been closed all night!!
We needed that!
I will not speak of firearms here, as this is a gold forum and silence ( ers ) can be golden! ( :+^}[
Riflas & pistolas can be worth their weight in gold. Guess that put the aura of legitimacy on the post!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:38 - ID#401183)
1 ounce + 1 ounce + 1 ounce +1 ounce + 1ounce + 1ounce, etc
Time: Week Next!
Let's get the physical into the private sector possession!
Let's buy till they bleed!
Let's buy till they end these foolish games that causes such pain on the constituents!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:39 - ID#401183)

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:43 - ID#20783)
Good nite to all.After what I just
Witnessed over the skies of Phoenix
Four very bright lights standing
Still in formation for five to seven minutes
Then just like bliping ..out gone five minutes
Latter they were all back in a triangular
Formation called a couple of my
Neighbors ( just to see if I was wacked or
Delusionary ) they saw the same thing. I
Dont believe in this unexplainable events.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:44 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bernatz - - Re: Your comment that in order for gold to go up in price, it must FIRST go up in price. EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! How else might 'attention' be captured! And they call themselves 'dippies'! HAR! They don't even KNOW the meaning of the word! Ask any goldbug what a dippy is! THEY KNOW!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:46 - ID#212132)
good God, A.J., now you're attacking me for a name I didn't even come up with
And as for the venting, it is apparently okay for people to
slam me over and over with impunity.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:47 - ID#212132)
Barb, that's interesting and all
But I'm going to have to call you on it,
since that sighting occurred about eight months ago.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:47 - ID#257136)
groups of lights
Barb: Neva hoppun! And ol' slick didn't inhale!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:48 - ID#257136)
groups of lights
Barb: Neva hoppun! And ol' slick didn't inhale!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:49 - ID#426220)


Nationally acclaimed analyst and oft CNBC- TV financial guru shares his diagnosis of recent market actions... and give his prognosis of what is looming on the horizon.

He likens recent US market action to the Japanese Big Bear that began in January 1989. In a sense this does remind me a little of the Japanese break from our expected high near 40,000 seven years or so ago. In route to what eventually would be a 25,000 point decline, the Nikkei actually had more up days then down days; it's just that down days were lulus.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:52 - ID#257136)
@du ventadorm:
No offense intended! The ( :+^ ) }[ was split in two ( as u kin c )
I merely played on the english words comprising yo moniker! ( :+^ ) }[

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:54 - ID#93232)
Did you ever get your shipments? Speaking of the long lost..where have you been?

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:55 - ID#257136)
Bernatz: By way of explanation!
The symbol or icon ( or whatever ) is one I dreamed up a couple years ago. It is to represent tongue- in- cheek. ( :+^ ) }[
Saves hurt feelings and explanations ( usually )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:59 - ID#22956)
go plat... ( big smile )

Geber Djafar
(Wed Jan 14 1998 22:59 - ID#377184)
Good idea on the predictions. FWIW, it appears to me that March silver has traced out a clear five wave advance from the October lows to the December highs, followed by a corrective three wave decline, which ended at yesterday's lows. If we follow a classic Elliott wave 3 from here, I would expect silver to gain approximately $2.70 from current levels ( the $1.70 wave 1 X 1.6 ) to reach $8.10 over the next several weeks.

Gold's action in the last 15minutes of Comex, on the other hand, made me want to puke.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:02 - ID#344308)

eb- - - -

excellent call on pl.......

realitstic- - - - - -

patience......can it be expected in the future for you to re- post
my posts in toto....and use eldorado's thoughts as your own against
mine? ie...the currency posts.....look at mine, eldo's, and yours....
same thing with my and eldo's grain post mine and excerpt
and use somebody elses as your own............. got any original material? gumby.....

- - - - - grains are coming down........
- - - - - bonds are coming down.........
- - - - - the european curriencies, latin american curriencies, AND
north american curriencies are ALL fixing to crater......imm...


fixing to buy some MORE CHEAP bean and corn puts.....
this scenario is'll play- out
for all to see........oommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

!; in- incredible- times- - - - - - - - waiting- for- more- - - - -

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:04 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Glenn - - I too like that particular 255 number for gold. Kind of fits in with John Disneys extrapulation of Fibonacci in regards to oil price and gold. I will await failure of current lows to put it into more 'proper' perspective, but right now, I keep it in my little book of 'possibilities'. Thanks for your ongoing views. Much appreciated!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:09 - ID#401183)
STUDIO.R: Received all shipments! Advertisements in USA TODAY very slim for precious metal deals! Doing business exclusively of late with GOBRECHT NUMISMATICS, Silver Spring, Md.Swamped with real estate appraisals with lucrative finance rates! Working seven days a week!
Doing mostly sales, VA, FHA, Conventional, and refinance of real estate entities! A few lenders are lending 125% of site value on new construction/new single- family entites! Just think, in a short time I'll being doing liquidation appraisal on these properties when this game of financial cards collapses! Best to you!

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:09 - ID#194311)
UBS gold guru tip....
310 in a blink.

Barb Hughes
(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:09 - ID#20783)
RE: Amber lights in the sky
OK bernatz du ventadorm:
It's on FOX 10 news now seems
like 20 or so other folks arround
the valley saw it to...they even
had footage.
Never in my life have I seen
anything like I just saw.
Watch the news....

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:12 - ID#93232)
Nice call. Thanks....from the non- sighted ( me ) .

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:26 - ID#411259)
..... LGB .....

LGB ( @ Spcial Comment ) ID#269409: "Platinum American Eagles are our friends...."

Tis True. Also agree about the babe in the blue diamond.

As for the value of proof coins: If they track the POG, then why would not one simply buy the cheaper bullion coins so they get more gold for their dollars? If gold goes up a buck and the proof goes up a buck, its the same dollar profit regardless of how much the coin cost originally. I like proofs because they are pretty, but remember, a collectable is only worth what someone will pay for it. I think history shows that in a sustained bull market, premiums on collectibles DECREASE as the base metal rises. This only makes sense since the value in the numismatic is not in the base metal but is its relative rarity. The higher gold rises, the lower the spread between bid and spot tends to become.

Confiscation: I think there will never be another gold confiscation in the USA, but it is wise to cover the eventuality. Legal tender coins from other countries cannot be seized by the US Government, absent criminal conduct of the gold owner. Maple Leafs, VPs, and Nuggets fit the bill.

IRA: Any American has been able to put American Eagle gold proofs in his/her IRA since the law was passed a couple years ago. My understanding of the new legislation, is that it opens the door to purchase bullion and foreign bullion coins for your IRA. The problem with having metals in your IRA is finding the Trustee. You cannot take delivery of the metal as this would be considered a disbursement and would be then subject to penalties and taxes. Very few companies are willing to hold the metal in trust. The trick to the IRA is that the metal is not held on a fungible basis, but must be kept segregated from all other metal. You could scratch your initials in your Maple Leaf and come back in 20 years to find the same coin waiting for you. I have set up several PM IRAs for my clients, and they are a bother, but it makes sense if one has a buy and hold mentality.

Regarding reportability: I don't have a clue on requirements for numismatics, but reporting requirements are very simple for bullion and bullion coins. There are ZERO reporting requirements when you purchase any precious metal. The reporting requirements kick it when the individual investor sells his PM back to the dealer. All bullion is reportable. Gold Maple Leafs, Kruggerrands, 90% silver coins, and 40% silver clad coins are also reportable. All other forms of bullion coins are non reportable. If a futures contract has ever traded on a commodity, as is, or was, the case with all above, then the sell back is reportable.


Let me too add my voice to the swelling chorus, we like you better this way.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:28 - ID#365190)
market updates - yahoo's not working
sourced from and

Malaysia 540 - up 0.6%
HK 8941 - down 3%
S'pore 1248 - up 0.5%
Jakarta holding at 409

wonder why isn't giving live quotes though...

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:30 - ID#398105)
farfel.... misinformation,US$353 million.......putting some "light" on the situation

On January 9, 1998, Pegasus Gold Inc. ( "Pegasus" ) issued a news release
announcing that the lenders under the Company's revolving credit facility have notified Pegasus that the indebtedness outstanding thereunder has been accelerated and that such lenders have offset amounts they owe under various hedging contracts against such indebtedness. Certain other hedging agreements have also been terminated. the FACTS

farel, how can an American be certain that the new mine he's just financed is actually new? When the banks declare him bankrupt!

farfel, why does it take 3 Americans to change a lightbulb? One to stand on the ladder, and two to carry enough lightbulbs until one is found that isn't defective.

farfel, are you a typical Yank? Or, are you an atypical Yank?

Every day you should take some time to sit at your desk, breathe deeply and say to yourself: "Do I still have some Pegasus shares?"

Aye, Haggis

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:31 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Cherokee - - Perhaps I'll get burned on them, but I really think corn and wheat are heading higher. I did take some profits and then turned around when they 'regrouped' and bought some back. Now I'll await further failure, should they occur. But, you might very well be correct. That's what commodity trading is all about; giving it your best shot, and surviving! This part of a move makes it more difficult to place 'appropriate' stops 'cause it hasn't defined much of anything yet. Really have to play support/resistance levels, spike failures and clustering on the charts. Does make it more fun though. WE BE HAVING FUN! Best regards!

PS, I do not post my trades here as I make them. I will ONLY give MY opinions on a potential 'situation'. I'll let others make their own way and only hope others might be able to profit from them also. EB brought note of the platinum which actually caused me to re- examine it. HE WAS DAMNED RIGHT! And I'm damned happy he did!!!! It is hard to watch everything carefully by oneself. Let's ALL try to put it all together the best WE can! We are not in any kind of competition, but if ANY of us might bring note of a potentiality here, stock, bond, commodity, currency, then bring it on and make us aware of it for our own perusal. This, of course is at least secondary to the metals movements and causes thereof. But it sure can cause a lot more movement of profits towards the metals over time. Now THERE is a rational! Thanks for all of your opinions. They ARE much appreciated as I hope even half of mine are.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:33 - ID#341293)
snowbird .... fuller explanation of RSI
When Wilder introduced the RSI, he recommended using a 14- day RSI. Since then, the 9- day and 25- day RSIs have also gained popularity. Because you can vary the number of time periods in the RSI calculation, we suggest that you experiment to find the period that works best for you. ( The fewer days used to calculate the RSI, the more volatile the indicator. )
The RSI is a price- following oscillator that ranges between 0 and 100. A popular method of analyzing the RSI is to look for a divergence in which the market index is making a new high, but the RSI is failing to surpass its previous high. This divergence would be an indication of an impending reversal. When the RSI then turns down and falls below its most recent trough, it is said to have completed a failure swing. The failure swing would be considered a confirmation of an impending reversal.

In Mr. Wilder's book, he discusses five uses of the RSI in analyzing commodity charts ( these apply to indices as well ) :
Tops and Bottoms. The RSI usually tops above 70 and bottoms below 30 ( MetaStock automatically draws horizontal lines at these levels ) . The RSI usually forms these tops and bottoms before the underlying price chart.
Chart Formations. The RSI often forms chart patterns ( such as head and shoulders or rising wedges ) that may or may not be visible on the price chart.

Failure Swings. ( also known as support or resistance penetrations or breakouts ) : This is where the RSI surpasses a previous high ( peak ) or falls below a recent low ( trough ) .
Support and Resistance. The RSI shows, sometimes more clearly than the price chart, levels of support and resistance.
Divergence. As discussed above, this occurs when the price makes a new high ( or low ) that is not confirmed by a new RSI high ( or low ) .

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:34 - ID#212132)
Okay, Barb, whatever, but now the fact that this formation has been seen twice in Arizona
in the last year makes it seem less likely that it is aliens,
unless they have someone on their intergalactic BB team who
wants to play for the Suns.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:35 - ID#31868)
IMF being
discussed on ABC NIGHTLINE


(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:37 - ID#402127)

I would like to thank Bart for the new system, which is functioning perfectly. Hello, JTF.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:38 - ID#364147)
EB------------------------------No Braging allowed on this site
Go Nuggets~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bernatz: 15- 1 odds and 37 points- - - hell- of- a long shot bro and bein a sentimental old fool I'm goin for Elway- Broncos...G'nite all- - - gotta rest my brain- cell......

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:38 - ID#93232)
Like T#1 said....ABC NOW.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:40 - ID#364147)
BRAGGING------------you MORON

bernatz du ventadorm
(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:44 - ID#212132)
Ted - do you think the Broncos will come within 13?
The Packers play well on grass.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:48 - ID#364147)
Bernatz.......................and grass
I 'play' better on grass too....g'nite- - - and this time I fukin mean it..

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:49 - ID#347457)
@RJ and buying/selling gold
RJ, from your post it looks like most reporting happens when you sell your gold and only limited reporting when you buy. Now how does this work for tax purposes? It looks to me that I can file a tax report which will show that I made a minimum profit ( better yet that I lost money ) because I bought gold at time when price was much higher than at time of my actual purchase. Not that I am suggesting to cheat;- )

Anyway, knowing IRS, they must be asking to prove your purchase date and price by forwarding a documentation for all your transactions ( just like for anything else ) Oh well, looks like I can't win ;- )

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:50 - ID#42682)
flu bug-problems yes-don't tell the media

strange flu- hits usa - hospitals full - a typical- origins unknown- take the test phone any hospital inthe usa.......

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:54 - ID#93232)
Fair report so far... go ABC.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:57 - ID#263153)
@gold denominated depositary shares
Date: Wed Jan 14 1998 22:02

Silverbaron ( Queensland Gold Bull Notes ) ID#288295:

I remember sometime ago ( before POG collapse ) the newsletter Strategic Investment was touting a yield- bearing instrument tied to the price of gold.

Can any of our Australian friends give us an update on these? ( if they are worth investigating )


Freeport- McMoran Copper & Gold has some gold and silver

denominated yield- bearing preferred stock issued, listed as

FCXPrB, FCXPrC and FCXPrD. The B preferred shares currently

sell for the equivalent price of $220/oz of gold, and yield

about 4- 5% , the yield is prorated to the price of gold as

calculated near the quarterly dividend payout. These securities

display no gearing, roughly tracking the underlying price of

silver and gold. The mandatory redemption date of the gold

denominated B series preferred stock is August, 2003, redeemed

at the then current price of gold as calculated as an average

of the price of gold in the thirty days run- up to the redemption

date. One could reasonably expect the current gap between the

listed price on the NYSE and spot to narrow and close near redemption

date ( 8/03 ) , for a little better yield in terms of total return.

Should gold do nothing, or end up at the present price at redemption

date I figure they will yield something like a money market in the

interim. In the interest of full disclosure, I've got some lots

of the gold denominated PrB and silver denominated PrD. The PrC

is also gold denominated, pays a lower prorated yield, has a later

redemption date, and currently sells for less. Marie Evillard

of the SoGen goldfund loaded up on these to the max his fund regs

would allow last year ( 25% of assets ) , giving him one of the better goldfund performances for '97.

$220oz, 5% yield, the physical equivalent cost delivered in 8/03 minus commissions, full liquidity with the stroke of a key in the interim.

(Wed Jan 14 1998 23:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Miro - - That hard to keep an important purchase receipt?

RJ - - Could you clarify your statement: If a futures contract has ever traded on a commodity, as is, or was, the case with all above, then the sell back is reportable.
This does relate to platinum coins?
Very good info in your posting. Thanks!