Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:05 - ID#411259)
..... Miro .....

Miro -

Any profit on your gold sale will be taxed as regular capital gains. Any loss incurred is a write off only against capital gains and not regular income. To claim either you must present proof ( invoice, receipt, etc. ) of the actual buy and sell prices. Everyone still has to pay their taxes. The whole reporting thing is a matter of privacy and discretion, which is very important to most of my clients. Its bad enough you have to lay your soul bare on your tax form without other people reporting your financial transactions to the government. Non reportability does not mean "non taxable". It does mean an extra measure of privacy. All other things being equal ( Leaf = .9999, VP = .9999 ) why would not somebody choose the VP over the Leaf and go the quiet route? Besides, I'm sick of looking at QE on the face of the Maple Leaf.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:06 - ID#347457)
Eldorado: no it's not difficult to keep receipt. I was trying to figure out if I can reduce my tax liability which is more higher than my level of resistance to pain. Fells like I have to support a half of federal government ;- (

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:06 - ID#93232)
ABC pushed the threshold a bit, I thought. Asia doesn't like dollars anymore, U.S. earnings in jeopardy...The Bull is BOLOGNA. $200 Billion for "temporary fix" per Camdessus... Hear that Congress? Your share $50 billion...Hello Deficit.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:09 - ID#347457)
Ooops "fells" was supopose to be" feels"
getting too late :- (

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:10 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Miro - - I hear you on that! Bunch of damned leaches!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:10 - ID#31868)
At least they covered it to some extent. If it was a meal I would still be asking where's the beef?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:11 - ID#22451)
ALL-Bank Bailouts
I am trying to comprehend how these fr- - ng bankers can make the same mistakes over and over and get away with it. What happened in Latin America, Mexico, and now Asia.

So now they will use taxpayers money and bail them out again. Who's smart and who's stupid?

Niteline gave a pretty decent account of what is happening in Asia, save that they are scaring anyone invested in the stock market that if we do not quash the problem investors are going to get hurt. Therefore, Congress, sign the check!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:12 - ID#28585)
@HAGGIS...PEGASUS NEWS RELEASE IS OLD NEWS (five days old anyway)...
Haggard ol' Haggis...your revelation concerning Pegasus is not a revelation...nor is it an unexpected development. The banks ( the collateralized ones anyway ) are simply apprising management of their rights to foreclose. Whether they do so or not remains the major question.

Pros: they can try to obtain a small portion of their loans ( 20% or less ) . They get to seize a big hole in the ground in a Godforsaken part of Australia containing gold they can extract for no less than $350 an ounce. Also, they get to seize mining equipment whose value in this deteriorated gold market is slightly above nil, i.e, the transportation costs to move the equipment elsewhere probably is comparable to the value of the equipment.

Cons: the collateralized banks alienate the non- collateralized banks, thereby harming important inter- bank relationships. Pego international probably declares bankruptcy in order to preclude paying out any monies to the banks. So, the banks end up in a position where they must wait indefinitely for even a relatively small pay- out...because all loan payments are suspended until the bankruptcy judge determines if they should be paid at all. The producing mines in the U.S. pay no monies whatsoever to anybody until resolution of the bankruptcy ( can drag on for eternity ) . If gold price rockets up again, banks are unable to mine Mt. Todd nor operate mining they must auction property to highest bidder who will still end up paying cents on the dollar for entire property.

In the end analysis, it makes the most sense to keep the company alive.
That you do not see this is simply some weird form of anti- Americanism
or some such syndrome.

P.S. Why are Aussie prisons so empty?

Because all the convicts own homes.

What does an Aussie shout when he farts?

This round's on me!

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:12 - ID#20783)
Are you a bullion dealer or a vest pocket folk?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:14 - ID#280222)
GLENN: What would you specifically like to see in the upcoming COT report that would make you more comfortable being long?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:15 - ID#280222)
APH: Is 305 still the potential upside target, or has it changed?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:15 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Studio R - - HAR! So what else is new? Like we haven't had 'surprise' deficits before? We didn't know it was coming? NAH! After all, we ARE the bank/taxpayer of last/only resort!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:16 - ID#31868)
The more I think about the more I get the feeling that each of the ABC people was afraid to come out with what they really wanted to say. Did you get the same feeling?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:18 - ID#411259)
..... Report Card .....

Miro -

Any profit on your gold sale will be taxed as regular capital gains. Any loss incurred is a write off only against capital gains and not regular income. To claim either you must present proof ( invoice, receipt, etc. ) of the actual buy and sell prices. Everyone still has to pay their taxes. The whole reporting thing is a matter of privacy and discretion, which is very important to most of my clients. Its bad enough you have to lay your soul bare on your tax form without other people reporting your financial transactions to the government. Non reportability does not mean "non taxable". It does mean an extra measure of privacy. All other things being equal ( Leaf = .9999, VP = .9999 ) why would not somebody choose the VP over the Leaf and go the quiet route? Besides, I'm sick of looking at QE on the face of the Maple Leaf.


Only those coins I listed are reportable, all others, of any type, are non reportable.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:20 - ID#93232)
The Evil Houses will be buying a lot of drinks and whores ( and little boys for some ) for the Congressmen you can bet on that. And ABC is right...if we don't pay up the Market is Toast. Problem is anyway. At least I now know how to pronouce the dickhead's Frogeze.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:22 - ID#42371)
Gold Producers selling
Bridge/CNFN- Gold fell back on producer selling. These guys are worst than CB, killing any rally with their panicky selling- just so they can get the stuff out of the ground at cost. CLOSE THEM DOWN

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:24 - ID#93232)
Hell yes...they were staring into gun barrels ( ak's, glocks, and colts ) ...but, honestly, I was surprised they went as far as they did. The bastards work for a publicly traded company. Sing, bird, sing!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:26 - ID#347457)
@RJ and ....Report Card ....
RJ, thanx, your information was very useful and educational. I am not much into physicals ( yet ) but I am getting there

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:27 - ID#28585)
The notion of gold producers leading today's selling is exactly the type of New Paradigm propaganda designed to disillusion gold- bugs.

Has any evidence been provided as to which companies sold? What were their names and how many contracts did they sell?

Do not condemn an entire industry because of one vague news report. There is no doubt that significant changes need to occur in the industry. I think tomorrow will reveal the first spate of such changes.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:28 - ID#24140)
A message from Bernatz
To All

Received this email which I pass along for what its


" Mon cher monsieur Deesnay - Zanking you so much for

your help on zees mattair. PLEASE assure ma frens at

zee Kitco place zat Ah am alive and vairy well. Ah

have zee beeg problems avec my computair which is a

Pyrannean modele and use zee Granite sheeps razair zen

the silicone sheeps. Zees is the pyrannean technologie

( jus lak zee gold machine by gar ) but zair ees a beeg

problem in zee wintair in zees orrible weazair.

Zair was no ROCKYSLIDE. An have no brozair for 900

YEARS ( alas pauvre henri who die so long ago een

a druken brawl - zat fou ) and no oncle eizair. Zee templair

LOVE me an would nevair hurt me at all ( ah Zink so anyWAY )

Zees perSON who preTEND to be ME - Ah weel fin

HEEM _ Ah have much monaie from my gold sales and Ah

have mah LeerZhet to Fly een and ah have mah FRENCH

sword by dam - Ah weel feex hees goose

Your good fren Bernatz "

I can only say that Mr Ventadorm seems a little

upset by these latest developments.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:28 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Pete - - Bankers are smart if they get BIIIIIG! That way, the Gov cant't allow them to fail! Causes 'problems' if they do, therefore they prop them up, pump in money, etc.... So EASY! Bail out the pigs when they mire themselves in the mud. AH, but the slaughter still remains on the horizon!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:29 - ID#31868)
When I get up I will buy some more physical to do my part for the cause. God only knows my relatives will get hammered in the downturn. Night all.

ER Physician
(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:31 - ID#228283)

Just stopped in to read the posts and say hello. I
don't believe I have ever seen Kitco better, than
it has been
in the last few days. There has been the return
of some posters who used to be regulars, such as
Earl, Eldorado, Glenn, and others. Also, some new
posters have come aboard who have been most
enjoyable. Would also like to send to Bernatz du
Ventadorm a thought. I am pleased to see you
back. I remember your gold calls. I must admit,
when gold was at $360, your 325 and 310 seemed
very far- fecthed. It turned out that even that was
not quite bearish enough. I hope you will post
regularly here, and are accorded respectful
responses. You never struck me as a person of ill

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:32 - ID#347457)
Good Night You All
:- o

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:33 - ID#411259)
..... Barb .....

Barb -

"Vest pocket folk?" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I am a precious metals broker whose main focus is leveraged physical transactions for individual investors. I do some delivery business, usually in the form of bullion coins. I trade both sides of the market and could care less where the prices go, as long as they go somewhere. I play the volatility for profits and losses - thankfully more the former than the latter. I only handle gold, silver, platinum, and palladium. I trade no other markets for my clients. I used to be a lot more active on this forum, but the last few months have been bodaciously busy. Seems the manners have improved hereabouts; if only the songbirds learned a new tune

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:34 - ID#20137)
So Here is Hong Kong...
Hang Seng ( HSI ) 8608.87 - 617.68 - 6.69 Jan 15 23:3

How about South Korea ... Yahoo stuck or broken .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Studio_R - - The market is toast even IF we DO cough up the bucks ( on the back of the taxpayers, of course ) . It is only bailing out the badly made loans of the bankers, for one. It has/will impose VERY stringent controls over foreign nations ( their sovereignty ) , and their spending. Just realize that ALL of this sh_t DOES come around to roost here. In that, you can count upon and BET upon!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:39 - ID#93232)
I shall do the same and I also worry for my family in the stock market....but worry is all I can do.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:47 - ID#93232)
@El Dorado....
I have no words defamatory enough to describe my opinion of bankers. If I uttered the words that come to my simple mind...I would be barred for life from Kitco and imprisoned by the IRS. The ignorant greedy- ass bastards loaned the damn money...let 'em collect from the poor bastards they lent it to... or let them be broke like everyone else. Put the bastards to work and let their lily hands bleed. Sorry, for the outburst.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:47 - ID#212132)
No doubt he is upset by these developments
Especially by the development of computer problems
that somehow preserve his ability to send e- mails.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:47 - ID#28585)
With the failure of a big Cayman Island Bank and subsequent run on several others, then problems in the American banking system may not be far behind.

The genuine super- rich in the world park most of their funds offshore. In many ways, the integrity of the offshore banking system has become more important to the super- rich than the integrity of American shore- based banks. When the super- rich can no longer trust their offshore havens, then disillusionment with the world financial status quo has finally arrived. Dollars disappearing offshore could induce huge patriations of capital back to America with potentially negative inflationary effects.

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:52 - ID#225408)
ANOTHER's Thoughts on internet

You posted a message yesterday? about informing the proper authorities about ANOTHER'S posting on the internet in London. The reference was withdrawn at about the same time. Was there a connection? Which authorities would have an interest in that sort of thing? Are we missing missing something about the identity of ANOTHER?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:52 - ID#93232)
@Brother John Disney.....
That was funnier than hell. Now, my blood pressure is starting to go back down a bit...thank you, sir.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:53 - ID#255284)
a series continueth......
I always feel honoured to read many of the posters here. I confess that I find the current discussion on confiscation of American citizens gold most interesting, although it does not directly concern me on the other side of this sweet gold world.

However, while I appreciate that the coin and numismatic experts have been able to guide everyone on what coins/bullion may or may not be confiscatable by your gobmint, I think yall maybe overlooking something. Before that infernal Rooseveldt decree in 1933 noone wouldve thought the gobmint would confiscate AT ALL. The order was conceived in some fetid bureaucrats room and spewed on you good American folk. ( Has anyone found actual figures of confiscated gold? ) This order exempted some but not all coins as we are discovering.

The point I am about to make is this. You cannot be sure that what was not confiscated last time will also not be confiscated next time ( if there is one ) I would not pin my hopes on fine distinctions as the past would lead you to believe. Your gobmint may steal it all next time.

Ones labours in life can be exchanged for paper or for gold. If one chooses to exchange labour for gold, then any gobmints confiscation is equivalent to stealing of ones life.

......."The Land of the Free_____ HA HA"

....a merry sketch of irony, blasphemy and goldbuggery.....Part 11.....

In America, at the time of the Cuban missile Crisis in 1962, a series of emergency measures were formulated, to be followed in the event of a full confrontation, and they were signed into law by John F Kennedy. They stand today exactly as they were signed on February 16 & 27 1962. Those emergency documents provide that the president should have complete and final dictatorial control, the authority to undertake immediate and decisive action. His executive orders are to be carried out through the office of Emergency Planning and they are to be put into effect in any time of increased international tension or economic or financial crisis.

Executive Order #
10995 - to take over all communication media
10997 - take over all electric power, petroleum, gas, fuels and minerals.
10998 - take over all food resources and farms.
1099 - take over all methods of transportation, highways and seaports
11000 - mobilisation of civilians and work forces under governmental supervision
11001 - take over all health, welfare and educational functions
11002 - The Postmaster General will operate a nation- wide registration of all persons.
11003 - take over all airports and aircraft
11004 - take over housing and finance authorities
11005 - take over al railroads inland waterways and public storage facilities.

Pretty spooky stuff in that lot, amigos....

Perhaps someone may correct me, but I think these odious Executive Orders are still hanging like that old sword of damnhisknees over the freedoms and liberties you hold so dear.

Hard to imagine theyd forget to include Phillies or Maples next time huh?

to be continued.............

(Thu Jan 15 1998 00:55 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ - - If I may say, I too would like to see you posting here a LOT more often! Thanks for your thoughts and knowledge. I do look for their presence here! I DO have say 'HAR' to your last nights' HE heeeee heeeeeee post! ( Or was that two nights ago? ) . But the 'EB' Russian 'translation' thing certainly warranted it! HELL, I put that one right along side of Mooneys 'looney tooneys' story! HAR!!!! I hope you get to see that one, if you haven't already! Best regards....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:00 - ID#373403)
U.S. Debt
Up $4.785 Billion this year already. At this rate, $114 Billion will be annual increase in a year expected to have a tax surplus. Gee LGB, do you think the government would ever lie to us about reporting statistics and such?

John Disney__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:02 - ID#24140)
Keep your eyes open
For Bernatz the Pretender

Dont know how The True Bernatz sent that message. Im only

reporting the facts. But Ive SEEN those old French swords -


(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:03 - ID#255151)
Gold Confiscation

Hi aurator- - I am doubtful that the U.S. Government will confiscate any Gold. Too much hissing for too few feathers. Your point, though, about those Executive Orders is well taken. A Fortean would call these orders "damned data".

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:05 - ID#212132)
Thanks, John, but I'm not imitating Bernatz de Ventadorm
As everyone on this forum will attest.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:06 - ID#373403)
Gold confiscation
Do you think if I designed a limited edition of religious jewelry cast with Kitco .9999 that would deny the government the ability to confiscate? Limited edition art designed to be used in mainstream religious ceremonies.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:07 - ID#401460)
I hope the IMF can back up it's Promises

Wednesday January 14, 9:33 pm Eastern Time

US Rep. Paul to propose legislation to cut off IMF

WASHINGTON, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - A Republican lawmaker said on Wednesday he planned to introduce legislation to end all U.S.
participation in the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) .

``The IMF was a bad idea from the beginning: economically, constitutionally and morally,'' Rep. Ron Paul of Texas said in a statement.

Paul said financial markets would make the necessary adjustments without U.S. intervention.

``The IMF exists only as welfare for the very rich investors and to keep afloat reckless political institutions which have policies that destroy
their own economies,'' Paul said.

``By subsidizing the irresponsible economic behavior of South Korean, Indonesian and other leaders with these lucrative bailouts, the U.S.
and the IMF only encourage other nations to play fast and loose with the basic laws of economics,'' he added.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:10 - ID#280222)
RJ: Forgive my lack of sophistication, but what is "leveraged physical transactions"? Could you give me an example? Thanks.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:12 - ID#255284)

Auric G'day. I suppose they said the same thing before the infernal order too?

There was some discussion earlier about methods of concealment. Would appreciate any further info or threads on this. both hi tech and lo tech solutions.

Avalon. I live North of Auckland, still.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:13 - ID#284255)
Indonesia set for new reform deal; riots reported
JAKARTA, Jan 15 ( Reuters ) - Indonesia geared up on Thursday for a new reform deal with the IMF to pull itself out of an economic mess as police and news reports said food riots had erupted in some parts of the huge archipelago.
Former Swiss security guard sues bank for billions
NEW YORK, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - A Swiss security guard who stopped Holocaust documents from being shredded sued the Union Bank of Switzerland ( SBGZ.S ) on Wednesday for up to $2.5 billion in punitive damages, alleging the bank caused him to be the target of a campaign of harassment.
Credit Lyonnais surprised by Moody's ratings move
Moody's on Wednesday placed under review for possible downgrade the A3/Prime- 2 deposit ratings of Credit Lyonnais S.A., as well as the bank financial strength rating at E+.
Moody's said this rating action reflected the potential credit risks associated with the bank's exposure to troubled East Asian counterparties, notably in Korea, Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia.
U.S. stock funds lose $456 mln in 2 days - survey
ASIA- Crisis expected to curb U.S. profits in 1998
NEW YORK, Jan 14 ( Reuters ) - The Asian financial crisis will stunt U.S. profit growth in 1998, dealing a blow to American companies that export goods, loan money and construct buildings in the region, analysts said.
Jakarta stocks down over two pct after IMF reforms
HK stocks extend losses, index down 5.01 pct
Sino Land ( 0083.HK ) dropped HK$1.60, or 45.7 percent, to HK$1.90 on continued selling on rumours, denied by the company, that it was unable to honour its loans.
The company said in a statement that its directors stated there was absolutely no ground to such rumours and the Sino Group was able to pay its loans as they become due and had sufficient working capital.
Chronology of the Asian financial crisis
SINGAPORE, Jan 15 ( Reuters ) - President Suharto of Indonesia and the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) Managing Director, Michel Camdessus, signed an agreement on Thursday to strengthen economic reforms.
The following is a chronology of the financial crisis that has rocked Asia.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:17 - ID#284255)
This is a true story - related to me by a fellwo Kitcoite
Reg said that in 1978 there were manipulating the silver market then just as they are now. I guess nothing really changes. the man who owned the little coin shop and commodity trading house used to trade in the cattle market. He made a tremendous amount of money by straddles in that he would go long one month and short another. The boys in Chicago saw that he was
taking them to the cleaners and they wanted to get even and what they did was they manipulated the market in such a way as to spike prices against him and put him into a tremendous loss, so great that he had to declare bankruptsy and had to close down his coin shop and trading house. He was only able to survive because he had a huge stash of gold and silver coins which he stored at his house north of Toronto ( Canada ) . One day he had to trunk of his cadillac loaded with gold and silver. He was about to leave his house when the RCMP ( police ) drove up with a search warrant. While they were searching his house, his brother drove up in his cadillac which was
identical in model and colour. So when the police finished searching the house and found nothing, they asked him about his car and they wanted to look in it's trunk. He had already made arrangements with his brother to change cars so when they went to look in his brothers trunk they did not find anything. So they had to leave empty handed. These boys in Chicago and New York are the biggest gangsters in the world. He often told me stories of how they would take successful traders to the cleaners. I guess that's why he always had the gold and silver at home because he knew that one day they would come after him

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:18 - ID#255284)
____Ra! Ra!_____
TheMissingLink: G'day, now that's a thought, tho' for this old salty you're pretty open on the religious design. How about a sunburst. Sun and gold, the Egyptian Sun God was called Ra. Perhaps that's a possible name for it...?

The kitco Ra.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:20 - ID#255151)
Gold Confuscation

Got some thoughts on that, auratorius. Get some PVC piping of the proper diameter, and put your coins in there. You could then seal it with PVC caps and either bury it or conceal it within the plumbing.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:21 - ID#212132)
Low tech methods of concealment
Very low tech - Point in a direction opposite
to where PM's are located and say "Look, Suzie Gharib"

Pretty low tech - Bake bullion coins inside cake
( kind of like a thimble cake ) and serve as refreshments,
making sure you serve yourself the piece with the hidden

High tech - Although the moon is sacred to Native
peoples such that items like human remains cannot
be stored there without invoking calls of sacrilege,
no one said anything about items ORBITING the moon.
See if you can blast your bars high enough to send
them into lunar orbit, making sure to label them
like your mom did with your clothes before you went
to camp so you don't get them confused with someone
else's bars.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:23 - ID#284255)
Web chatter
I liken Sino land to Peregrine.
The big Co's are now being squeezed.
And the banks are non supportive.
More fun to follow soon as this liquidity crises,
Establishes its foothold.
Expanding and acting like a highly contageous disease.

Disease = ill at ease.
A friend of mine was in malaysia ( muslim )
when the gulf war began and the there were anti american
demonstrations everywhere, flag burning etc. American
friends of his had to call themselves Canadians to avoid
getting beaten up. Business people in some countries
there are interested in what they can get out of the USA,
thats why they try to be friendly. Run a trade surplus with
them as large as they have with USA and we'll see how un friendly,
uninterested in trade they are. In Japan there are bars
that foreigners aren't allowed to go into, Japanese only.
Nationalism and religous fervour is of a kind people here
cant imagine, they have an us versus them mentality, as if
we owe them access to our markets, while they have a right to
deny us access to theirs. Japan wouldn't let high quality USA
rice be sold in Japan as is because they were afraid the
people would get to liking it, so they mixed it up with cheap THai
rice to water it down. Are you starting to get the picture?
By the way, I am indonesian on my granmothers's side.
Don't be naive.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:23 - ID#93232)
First of all, I can only say so much about that. Not because of "mysterious" reasons...but because of confidentiality. And the confidence does not involve ANOTHER. I have no knowledge of or connection to Another or his purpose.

I was contacted, by phone, by two different well- known publications which are aware of ANOTHER's words on this venue. They share our intrigue with him and are interested in publishing excerpts or entire texts. I have publishing interests and am somewhat knowledgeable in that business arena. I, as they, know permission must be granted by him to publish his works.

Several discrete attempts have been made, in different manners, to contact him. They have failed. I surmise the withdrawal of his works by the London publisher was a result of my posting or the inquiries that were made to locate him. I do not know if the London group had the right to publish. I am not concerned with that now.

It is interesting to note, that our comments on Kitco are being monitored by a rather large scope of interests. And I will tell you this, the people that discussed his works with me are taking him rather seriously. And I don't hesitate to say, that surprises me a bit. But, what the hell do I know?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:23 - ID#401460)
S L O W D O W N underway!
Qantas to cut more Australia- Asia flights
SYDNEY ( January 14, 1998 9:37 p.m. EST ) - Qantas Airways Ltd. is to further slash services between Australia and
Asia from next month because of plummeting passenger numbers caused by the Asian economic crisis, the airline said

John Disney__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:27 - ID#24140)
I just cant get started this morning
Some bumper stickers

* If you smoke after sex, you're doing it too fast.

* If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic.

* Jesus is coming, everyone look busy.

* Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them.

* The more you complain, the longer God lets you live.

* Keep honking, I'm reloading.

* The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

* If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of


* Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

* Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

* Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

* 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

* I like you, but I wouldn't want to see you working with

subatomic particles.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:29 - ID#24140)
Ill try sending a reply
for Bernatz the Pretender

Okay Ill try to calm him down.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:33 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aurator - - All of those EOs are still there, and more. Interesting, aren't they! One might wonder how such can be under our Constitution, right? Just goes to show that we haven't been quite 'sane' in regards to a 'Constitution' since the war of nothern agression, when the south walked enmass out of the legislature. Can't DO that without dissolving it! GOT TO record the next meeting date! But, that not being the case, it was essentially dissolved! After the war, the southern legislature was bought back, essentially under gun point. Bottom line is that our Legislature is by 'resolution only'. Even now! We now live by presidential decree, since everything else was disolved. Sure, they keep up the pretense. But if you examine it all, it all follows the EOs except where the difference doesn't matter. Look upon it like living in Rome. Not much different. What's next; Pharaohism? Hey, why not. Didn't the Germans NEED a leader out of the morass of WWI? Arise, Hitler, with his altruistic purposes! And again, these are getting to be the unfortunate times when another SOB can arise! Watch for ANY and ALL signs of JACKBOOTness, whereever it be found. From there arises tyranny!

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:34 - ID#225408)

Thanks for your reply. There seems to be many levels of mystery swirling around on this one. I have noticed a difference at the London site. There used to be commentary and updates at that site with liberal quotations from various sources. That has disappeared for the moment and I for one lament its passing. I recall seeing a collection of his thoughts available somewhere. From your comment I would guess that it was here at Kitco although Gold Eagle would have seemed a likely spot.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:37 - ID#57232)
LBMA,LGB, and Goldbug 23's post about US aid given to others in past
LGB: I also like your new leaf, so I will add my positive comment to the Kitco Chorus. When you want to, you can contribute alot.
LBMA - - MoReGold, Jaackko- 20:32. Your posts about the LBMA now trading paper gold at daily levels nearly equal to annual gold production rates reminds me of my concern that gold prices may no longer reflect the physical price of gold. Regardless of what individuals more expert in these matters than I say, there will be a point where paper volume gets so high that the physical metal can no longer control the price. I just realized there is a good example of this - - futures. In the case of futures the price is not that of the physical price of the commodity, but that of the expectations for that commodity. Yes, these prices may coincide, but they also may diverge for months. We know the CB's are mixing paper and phyical, or they would not be able to control the gold price with derivatives. We also know that our market indices can be manipulated up and down with derivatives.
I ask the gold traders out there - - what volume of paper gold trading, or type of paper ( derivative ) trading would be necessary for the gold price at the LBMA to no longer reflect the price of physical gold. Aren't we already at more than a 10:1 ration of derivative to physical volume? How high does the paper gold trading need to go before the gold price is manipulated like our market indices?
Given my example it is clear that what I describe could happen. All that remains is to define the criteria for that deviation of paper and physical price.
I wonder - - is there any gold market out there where only the physical is traded? But even so, I doubt this would help, because the LBMA gold paper volume probably dominates all other markets. I would very much like opinions expanding on what I just said, because this could be extremely important to all of us. Is ANOTHER right after all?
Goldbug 23 - your 18:56. You are absolutely right that the Marshall plan became a one way offer of financial support from the US, the vast majority of which was never paid back. There was lend/lease with England during the war as well- - I don't think that was ever paid back. And, during the Great Depression, we got little help from the rest of the world, despite the fact that anxious european bankers had worsened the US market bubble by asking us to inflate the dollar beginning around 1925. And, our depression was much worse than that of other countries at that time - - but noone offered to help us.
I guess I would make my point this way - - if the world is to move in the right direction, with world peace rather than strife, all countries should demonstrate what should be done by positive example, even if they do not get a response in kind. This could be considered to be motivated partially by self interest, since the more healthy trading partners in the world we have, the better for all. A stable healthy environment for all is in our self interest, because the alternative breeds war.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
John Disney - - Re your 1:27; HAR!!!!!!! I'm saving those!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:39 - ID#41229)
Your post, it seems that your sure it is a man, if they're trying to contact him, it seems that a nationality maybe also known?

I also am wondering why Bernard- Hep is so concerned with knowing who everyone is!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:42 - ID#401460)
Hong Kong

- 655.79

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:44 - ID#285392)
Thank you for your RSI information. I am a Canadian and if there is any information regarding our markets that I can get for you please let me know. Best regards Snowbird.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:46 - ID#288140)
Go to a hardware store a have a look at what sizes of PVC pipe and end caps you can get. This stuff glues together real easy ( special solvent type cement ) , strong water tight seal, it's designed to be buried. Getting any ideas?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:49 - ID#28585)
Just some further suggestions about creating a mass re- evaluation and new perception of gold's value.

My main point has been to access the pro- gold message into the mainstream media. One Kitcoite informed me of his pro- gold prop on various cyber- chatnets.

I think the most effective arenas would be in the major media forums, e.g., forum on the New York Times, forum on the L.A. Times, etc.
When you visit these internet forums, you rapidly discover that most conversation is of a New Paradigm nature and there are all variety of virulent, anti- gold messages. Apparently, these major media forums receive millions of hits per week.

Anyway, for those Kitcoites that wish to spread their pro- gold message, take a stab at major media FORUM sites such as,, etc. etc.

If you do not feel sufficiently articulate in expressing the message, then simply copy and appropriate your favorite Kitcoite guru's thesis and post them into these forementioned forums.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 01:55 - ID#93232)
The people I spoke with think he is in a position to know and that he is middle- eastern. But they are guessing...I don't know how good they are at guessing these things. That's all I want to say about it.

Well, I think I almost blew a heart valve on that banker crap. I pray to God I never need a loan...I have burned those bridges. I can swim.
Good nite.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:01 - ID#372235)
IMF concedes that errors were made in its Indonesian policy

This was in the January 14th Los Angeles Times.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:02 - ID#401460)
S& P 500 MAR98 958.50B - 480

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:03 - ID#284255)
Airlines flying high..where's the landing wheels gone?
There has been some interesting comments about the airlines on Avid over the last two days.
You will find them stored on:
http://aig- chat/
Time to short the airlines.
I wonder if their index chart mirrors copper's chart?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:07 - ID#301318)
PVC piping NOT!

The chemical makeup of PVC will destroy your coins.
I am not an expert but any numistmatic can verify this for you.
Apparently PVC will give off gases and leave an oily like film in the metal. If you attempt to clean them you will surely destroy the face if not done expertly.

Use a Mason Jar!

*Auric ( Gold Confuscation ) ID#255151:
*Got some thoughts on that, auratorius. Get some PVC piping of the proper *diameter, and put your coins in there. You could then seal it with PVC caps and *either bury it or conceal it within the plumbing.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:11 - ID#284255)
ANOTHER one? Ra. Ra. Ra.
Another copy of ANOTHER's transcripts.
There may be some missing between mid Dec to early Jan

Au RA tor
One for you.
The golden orb.
Just a few days old.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:11 - ID#41229)
Bullion sales
Been keeping tabs with dealers, just to get a feel.

In my part of the world, the demand of physical going up quite a bit, and the interesting part is that it isn't only the quys with the deep pockets seeking out an safe haven but your average Joes'.

The perception is changing Ferfal, without a propaganda machine, the evening news begining to take effect.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:12 - ID#284255)
Web chatter
Peregrine plight: No major impact on China's enterprises. See the article at the end of the message.
In case you don't know, the fall of Peregrine Investment Holdings is mainly due to large amount of default loans to Indonesia.
As for this link, thanks for reminding me. I don't give too much credit on their comment and prediction. They also predicts that "it is clear to us that China will not be able to escape the process." I am not certain about that. I think most likely Hong Kong peg will remain and China will not devalue their currency in short term ( meaning 6 months or may be longer ) . This will be hard for China, as well as Hong Kong, but China has gone through harder time than this in its modern history. And every time, it came out stronger than before. The reason for China to do so is not for their own interest, it is for the interest of the whole Southeastern and Eastern Asia. As a matter of fact, China might be better off to devalue its currency somewhat, but that will put too much pressure on other already very depressing Southeast Asian economy, and as well as South Korea economy. Of course, this remains to be seen.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
THE fall of Peregrine Investment Holdings, the largest Hong Kong- based investment bank and a major sponsor of mainland- linked shares, is unlikely to have major impact on mainland enterprises' moves to raise funds in the Hong Kong equity market, analysts said yesterday.
However, the underwriting market for mainland- linked stocks is expected to be dominated by foreign investment banks such as Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Credit Lyonnais Securities and JP Morgan. Peregrine had been a powerful rival for them.
"Such a situation will be harmful for mainland enterprises seeking listing in Hong Kong," a Beijing- based Peregrine official said. "There will be no Chinese- funded company to compete with them."
Peregrine acted as lead underwriter for more than 70 per cent of issuance of mainland- backed, Hong Kong- listed red chips and some 20 per cent of flotation of mainland- incorporated H shares. It had been involved in almost all the initial public offering of red chips and H shares, the Peregrine official said.
The red chips and H shares plunged yesterday on fears that the troubled company might dump its portfolio of red chips and H shares, brokers said.
"There are many professional investment banks which can sponsor listing of mainland- linked shares overseas," said He Ning, chief representative of Merrill Lynch in Beijing. "It is not that the mainland companies can not do without Peregrine. Competition will remain fierce in this market."
He admitted Peregrine had an advantage in having a deeper understanding of domestic companies and capital markets than most foreign investment banks.
Some mainland companies such as the Yanzhou Mining and China World Trade Centre, have delayed their Hong Kong listing ever since the market began to tumble in October last year.
The company fell into trouble last Friday after Zurich Group's Zurich Centre Investments Ltd pulled out of a deal to invest US$200 million into the company.
The stock and futures exchanges of Hong Kong have suspended Peregrine Brokerage Ltd's membership, and the Securities and Futures Commission issued restriction notices on certain members of the Peregrine group including both the securities and futures trading operation.
Peregrine said in October its equity products business had suffered a fall in net profits for the period January 1 to October 24, 1997, dropping to US$16 million from US$39 million at the end of the first six months of the year.
The Asian currency turmoil forced Peregrine to lay off 275 of its 2,000 staff worldwide in November.
It registered bigger losses recently with the depreciation of the Indonesian rupiah.
The company had hundreds of millions in US dollars invested in the bond market in Indonesia.
Analysts said an important problem for the company is that it did not pay enough attention to risk prevention in its aggressive development.
Hong Kong Financial Secretary Donald Tsang on Sunday sought to calm fears that Peregrine's troubles would crush the already battered stock market and urged investors to react rationally.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Date: 01/13/98
Author: Liu Weiling
Copyrightc by China Daily

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:13 - ID#284255)
Web chatter
Death penalty for hoarding food in Indonesia ( under the subversion law )
- Many more bankruptcies in Hong Kong as credit lines are pulled ( many Jap banks are pulling credit as we speak )
- Why should Peregrine be the only one in trouble? Remember Steady Safe owed Peregrine US$250m but also owes HSBC another US$100m - which it won't pay back. OK HSBC can handle it but there are many more nasty surprises in store for banks in Asia. Of that I am certain
- When Indonesians don't get their bonuses at the end of this month they are not going to be very happy ( ie more riots on the cards )
- Just as Asia were in denial for the last few years the West have not realised the effect of the Asian economic disaster on their own growth. The US market is only just off its all time high!
With all this going on does anyone know why the markets are so buoyant? It seems like a sucker rally to me.
Sell Asia, sell all banks with Asian exposure ( particularly European ones which have been the marginal lenders to Asia in the last few years )
Korea has been the best performing market in the world this year- in US$ terms. Give me a break!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:14 - ID#288140)
RJ or anyone
Please, what is VP coin?

Also interested if anyone has experience with PVC storage damaging gold coins.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:14 - ID#284255)
Web chatter
I received a synopsis of a conference w/ Abbey J Cohen this AM re: Asia and US markets.
FWIW, see what her opinion is re: US bank exposure to Asia.
" center banks
don't have a significant exposure to Asia. She stated that Citibank is
puting in ATMs, but she said they are not issuin spec loans. On the
contrary, 60% to 65% of non- performins loans are held by Japanese
banks. Less than 5% of non- performing Asian loans are held by US
banks. In financial services, the failure of some Asian institutions
may even open up opportunities for US financial organizations ( as she
cited the US closing of Daiichi- forgive my spelling ) . "
Here is the synopsis in entirety,
She believes global markets now possess less risk than 6 mos ago or a
year ago. The reason: in 2h96 and 1h97 the risk premium in the credit
markets decreased considerably, but rewidened considerably in 2h97
following Alan Greenspan's "irrational exuberance" comments ( that Abby
claims were directed at credit markets rather than the stock market. )
Greenspan's comments triggered a notable expansion in the risk premium
spread of markets around the world. Since the risk premia rewidened,
she believes the risk in the capital market is now lower.
Abby believes that the US market is 5% to 10% undervalued now based on
GS valuation models. In August the market was at fair value, but since
October the market is undervalued. She believes it is very difficult
to determine whether international markets are undervalued ( since good
fundamental and accounting data are less certain from companies in many
international markets ) , but she did state that the overvaluation of
international markets last summer has diminished.
Abby believes the fundamental picture in the US is superb. First,
fiscal policy is sound as the government reduced the deficit ( since
1990 ) from 6% of GDP to practically 0. Second, US corporations are
better managed with margins up since 1990, ROEs at 22% ( from 11% in
1990 ) , and the return on invested capital also doubled. She said she
could "go on and on." The economy is good and the problems in Asia
will slow the US in the short term but are not a "big deal." She said
that the US is the largest domestiv economy in the world and that
foreign trade is less important in the US than in either Europe or in
As for Asia, the problem is due to "lousy returns on capital" and not
to a lack of capital. In fact, she claims, excess capital led to
untenable equity and real estate levels. No one thought they had any
risk, so they invested in increasingly risky projects. Abby likened
the Asia crisis with the U.S. savings and loan crisis; S+L managers
took on the riskiest loans they could find since someone else covered
the risk.
She said the mostly likely scenario for the US has Asia lowering GDP
0.5% from what it would have been otherwise. She said that for most
companies, Asia is statistical noise. Some companies will have greater
impacts, but this will be the general impact. She cited that Asia is
only 30% exports that are, in turn, only 13% of US GDP. According to
Abby, Asia is serious but the US economy is solid and Canada, Mexico,
and Europe are improving so it will only cause a small dent to profits.
She also noted that we export 30% of our trade to Asia but import 48%
of what we take in from other countries. Hence, Asia is a source of
production rather than a source of demand.
Goldman Sachs thinks that the markets overreacted to Asia, particularly
in two areas: financial services and technology.
In Fin Svcs: all the stocks are under pressure despite a very favorable
inflation and interest rate scenario. She said that money center banks
don't have a significant exposure to Asia. She stated that Citibank is
puting in ATMs, but she said they are not issuin spec loans. On the
contrary, 60% to 65% of non- performins loans are held by Japanese
banks. Less than 5% of non- performing Asian loans are held by US
banks. In financial services, the failure of some Asian institutions
may even open up opportunities for US financial organizations ( as she
cited the US closing of Daiichi- forgive my spelling ) .
In technology: She said approx 50% of tech customers are
international. She said that some tech companies will get clobbered,
but 1 ) on average 70% of the international business tech business is in
Europe where demand is improving and 2 ) most of the Asian business is
in Japan.
Abby also favors small cap stocks. She said the risk premia for small
cap stocks has increased steadily for 2 years and is up even more over
4 years ago. She believes small cap stocks now offer "extremely gopod
value." Small stocks 1 ) offer attractive relative value, 2 ) will come
into favor when investors see that the US is just fine, and 3 ) will
gain interest with the increase in volatility as investors move to more
active stock selection and sector rotation.
Abby expects that by the end of 1998 the S+P will be at 1075, the Dow
will be at 8700, and the Nasdaq will be at 1776 ( that's her number ) .
She said these should be easily achieved. She expects 8% profit
growth in 1998 ( down from 12% in 1997 ) . Positive surprises include the
possibility for multiple expansion as foreign investors come back to
the US market. Her negative surprise concerns earnings, particularly
that any specific company might disappoint.
She does not see a recession in 98 or 99.
She expects wage an price pressure to be a little more troublesome than
in 97, but not serious yet.
Abby expects the long bond to trade between 5.75% and 6.25 for 1998
although it could go lower in the near term.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:19 - ID#41229)
Would be very suprise to see any effects of pvc with gold or silver, does not effect brass or copper.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:19 - ID#284255)
Watch for this one. - repeat but worth it.
Credit Lyonnais surprised by Moody's ratings move

Credit Lyonnais is one of the big boys in Europe.

Is the contagion spreading?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:24 - ID#284255)
Anyone notice any posts from Another between Dec 12th and Jan 8th.
I would love to add them to the archive.

Next week in the markets will have the potential to be explosive.
A sell off into expiration will tip the balance in favour of the bears.

My swing looks vaugely like it did prior to Oct fall.
Block selling of large parcels evident in OZ today.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:30 - ID#212132)
refer - I don't care who people are
I care who people are not.

You, for example, are not unlike a palindrome.

The concern over PVC stems from coin holders
or coin sleeves containing PVC as a softening
agent - These coin holders very definitely
destroyed coins by "sliming" them. I have
no idea if PVC pipe would do the same thing -
the only part of the coin in contact for what
you are suggesting would be the rim/edge.
My suggestion if you are storing coins of
numismatic value would be not to do this, but
of course if they are of numismatic value you
wouldn't want to be burying them anyway.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:39 - ID#288140)
If it's going to be melted down, I want to choose when and how. Consider a fire safe. Small not very expensive ones are commonly available these days.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:49 - ID#22956)
Cherokee.........mi amigo.....
Now,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ what the hell are you talking about?? I think you read wrong 'stuff' into my posts. Could you please 'splain what it is you mean......oh slayer of gumbies?

An email is sitting on your 'doorstep'.

away.....still scratching my head


(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:56 - ID#288140)
Horus the 1 oz Falcon

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:57 - ID#284255)
Shake rattle and roll
Visiting my doorstep this weekend. bin/quake/
Currently Sth America is wobbling

Don't rise to the bait.
It is not worthy of you ( :o}}}}}}}}}

(Thu Jan 15 1998 02:59 - ID#244360)
Newbie questions...
As inferred above, I am a newbie, to this forum, to the markets,

and to investing....although I have had varied contact with PM's

for about half my life ( since about 1988 or 89 ) .

Honsestly, is everybody's gold- buggish/gold- bullishness based

on realistic expectations or wishful thinking? Are historical

arguments concerning CBs, inflation, fiat money, major media headlines and POG acceptable as constituting realistic expectations?

Is there anything, as far as fundamentals like supply and demand, that says the situation cannot continue, for say, another couple years? What's the average lifespan of a ultra- low trough like this? If CB's hate gold so much, do they simply keep their vast hordes of it so they to manipulate the market? If this is so, how can we think they'll let anything even like $500 gold happen? Could the market just pull away from their controls? The only ways I could see this happening is by the market catching them unaware or sucking up their entire reserves, as it did the Fed's 2,000,000,000oz. stash of silver. The latter scenario could become a very long term deal because even if all gold mining production ceased today, they would have enough to satisfy current demand for about 10 years ( from figures off the top of my head ) . Very few, if any, gold stocks would be worth anything on the other side of 10 years at current prices.

In questioning like this, I am questioning my assumptions, as my own investments are structured benefit from a near- term bull market in gold. This case is reverse of the norm, as it's my mouth that's not where my money, rather than vice versa.

I don't mean to irritate anyone as I know feelings run with particular

strength in this sector of the market. Just had to get some of these things off my chest.

PS Can someone fill me in on the story around "ANOTHER"?

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:04 - ID#212132)
EB - how would one go about placing a bet on the SB
if one were not a member of a service or acquainted
with an EBookie?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:10 - ID#255284)

Has Jin managed to post yet? would someone please direct me, I have only seen a couple of tests.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:30 - ID#28585)
Somebody at Capital Cities/ABC must have a major short position on Dow stocks.

News reports don't come much scarier than that one.

Picture after picture of Asians lining up to turn in their American dollars for local currencies.

( Prediction: next ABC NIGHTLINE will feature Asians lining up to turn in their local currencies for gold )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:33 - ID#22956)
Cat Man Do
Fly to Vegas if you don't have one of those I had a bookie long ago but I grew out of it ( ? ) . My bookie lives in Chicago now and he takes my money when I place bets on these here commodity markets. I think the odds are better for me......sometimes.

I do like GreenBay to win though. Stupor Bowls always seem a bit anticlimatic to me......sort of like............hmmmmmmm...

.....sort of like 'cuddling' AFTER the fact ( know what I mean ) she's gonna kill me......Bart, can you surgically remove this post before something of mine is?? ( yuk, yuk ) ............ugh........ ( self destruct in five seconds ) not get any


go plat...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:37 - ID#28585)
The central thesis presented in tonight's NIGHTLINE: unless quickly eliminated, the mounting frustrations and despair in Asia will likely lead to a regional ( maybe even global ) war.

It is hard to believe a mainstream media vehicle like ABC would devote so much air time to analyzing such an unnerving hypothetical.

( All I want to know is this: who are the psychos shorting gold in this uneasy environment? MAJOR BALLS ARE REQUIRED! ) .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:41 - ID#284255)
Someone's pumping sph8
Have a read of this.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:43 - ID#263153)
@stranger & stranger cried Alice
Has Jin managed to post yet?


No Jin, it would be nice to hear.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:48 - ID#22956)
Sharefin............and Haggis...
How's it goin mate?? Did you get some of that nice move in the other white metal?? I know that you saw the pattern.....did ya'? Good on ya mate.

Haggis - what is your deal with us ruddy Yanks anyway?? Who shoved the Giant stick up yers arse?!?? Is it a permanent stick? And do you have it in for Yanks only or is it just certain yanks or is it anyone else in this world 'theatre'?? Who wronged you? If we are to get along you should be civil, AYE?? Enough with the bashing........I do not wish to stoop and grovel with ya and I enjoy most of your please, it is getting old old as this post.........duh.



(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:51 - ID#28585)
In the L.A. area, it's hard to find any stores with decent supply of eagles or maples...there is a definite populist buying spree taking place.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 03:53 - ID#432148)
Platinum shares...
Amplats, Impala Stillwater, North American Palladium tanked

with the gold shares, and since the price outlook for platinum

seems to be brighter, I doubt this was warranted. They could

put in key reversals from lows this week, if platinum continues

upward. Gencor Ltd is also an interesting play on platinum since

I believe it owns 47% of Impala. In addition they will own more

than 25% of Goldco, the new gold mining colossus. I would like

to communicate with someone interested in Gencor Ltd. Please

contact me at

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:00 - ID#28585)
Hong Kong is viewed by Asians as the font of prosperity and unbridled capitalism in the continent. If the Hong Kong dollar peg collapses, that will be the end of the Asian faith in the American greenback. Essentially, they view the HK dollar and the U.S. buck as synonymous entities.

In such an event, one would expect Asian sentiment to spin on a more donations of gold to government collectors but more likely a spate of gold hoarding.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:08 - ID#22956)
There seems to be something brewing betwixt the US$, en, Mark...........real soon. Interesting patterns are forming. It looks as though one is 'waiting' for the other to move his chess piece. Consolidation is occuring and I can't figure it out.

Let me go on a limb and say...sell the buck to buy Mark and en.......ohmy! And how will this effect gold?? Well, I don't know. await news from Donald


hello AuRAtor......hows the barby?? any shrimpies.....?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:10 - ID#255151)
Gold and PVC

Much of the water that people drink goes through PVC piping. Therefore, I doubt the piping is that reactive. Besides, Gold is not subject to tarnishment by any chemical in PVC that I can think of. Would appreciate confirmation or refutation on either point.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:11 - ID#22956)
Vienna Philharmonics.........not the dreaded sausages.


bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:11 - ID#212132)

For those of you emetic fans, I am vomiting right now.
( See shortage post below, and refer to my reunion tour
pronouncement )

EB, does your wife look over your shoulder whilst you
type? Is she a rose by some other name, posting on K- 1?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:12 - ID#286279)
How do I access ABC NIGHTLINE? I am afraid it may only be on television. I don't have television.

PS- Gold is forever.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:15 - ID#286279)
Thank you very much.

PS- Gold is a girl's best friend.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:15 - ID#28585)
ABC NIGHTLINE probably provides a transcript via internet.

Otherwise, call up the Network and have them send you a video.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:18 - ID#22956)
Cat Dude
She looks in from time to time....wondering what it is that keeps me up all hours of the eve....and she is not my wife.........yet, but a rose indeedy.......... ( sniff ) ........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...zzzzzzzz... ( snore ) ...



(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:31 - ID#286279)
I found where they will post the Nightline transcript. Thanks.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:35 - ID#228283)
Platinum vs. Gold..

does anyone know what the traditional ratio is. It used to be somewhere around a hundred bucks.If so we've got the pull of platinum and silver that should trigger the shorts once we get past $290 or so. No?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:46 - ID#286279)
Sorry, I don't know anything about your question. I just wanted to say hi! And bye. It must be two hours farther past your bedtime than it is for me. Good night.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:46 - ID#398105)

I am perfectly balanced, as I have a "chip" on BOTH shoulders......

(Thu Jan 15 1998 04:55 - ID#228283)
@sam.. goodnite to you ,good pal.Just got OUT of bed.!

Crystal Ball
(Thu Jan 15 1998 05:08 - ID#287367)
@ Auric
I've heard that PVC "flips" cause haziness on silver and copper coins, b
I've not heard that about PVC and gold.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 05:29 - ID#284255)
Worth a look around?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 05:31 - ID#248180)
Silver @ "US Big BoysHands" "Hedge Funds" - Dresdner
At the end of an article in The Australian, dated January 15, 1998 Titled "Watchdog to probe silver rumours" by Julie Earle and Bloomberg: "Dresdner Australia precious metals dealer Peter Upton said yesterday any litigation stemming from the reports would be a drawn- out event.
"Silver doesn't seem to be trading from a technical point now," he said.
"It is in the hands of the big boys, the US hedge funds," he said.
Someones been fibben us and they said Pm's were not a hedge for funds.
The worm as stated yesterday has turned. Press and push the metals.
A off topic thought regarding paper as paper. Don't you get sick of paper napkins? When one goes to a nice restaurant and is served linen cloth isn't nice. If we prefer linen to paper how long can the world tolerate fiat paper $$$ unless it is backed by something solid & good to hold and look at.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 05:48 - ID#228283)
@Junior...Backed by the "Full Faith and Credit",blah,blah,blah.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:06 - ID#259400)
Winston post of 2:59
This gentleman asks all the pertinent questions that have been plagueing me. I read all sorts of optimistic posts about the impending rally in gold but then on the other hand all the reasons gold is where it is are still in place. If this long awaited rally takes place I stand to benefit mightily as I am fairly heavily into gold mutuals but I just can't come up with anything short term that changes the equation. Any thoughts out there?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:13 - ID#26793)
Do they have the luxury of two months? (Repost for those who missed)
Wednesday January 14 7:48 PM EST

U.S. Plans Global Meeting on Asia Crisis

By Gene Gibbons

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The United States is laying the groundwork for a major international
meeting of finance ministers to discuss new initiatives to deal with Asia's financial crisis, the
Treasury Department said Wednesday.

In announcing the U.S. move to help contain the crisis, a Treasury spokeswoman said: "The United
States plans to convene a meeting of finance ministers from key countries around the world to
explore implications of the current financial situation in Asia and ways to deal with these

"We are in the process of consulting with the G7 ( group of major industrialized nations ) and other
countries to look at possible approaches going forward," she said.

The spokeswoman declined to give a date for the planned meeting or say whether it could be held
as part of a scheduled meeting of G7 finance ministers in Britain in late February.

But she said it was part of an initiative presented by President Clinton at last November's Asian
Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vancouver, at which he announced setting an agenda for
the "international financial system in the 21st century."

The Treasury statement followed a Reuters report earlier Wednesday which quoted a senior U.S.
official as saying the Clinton administration was working with its allies to convene such a meeting
with the aim of strengthening the international financial system in response to Asia's turmoil.

The official, who asked not to be identified, said the meeting was likely to take place "in the next
month or two" and would not be confined to the Group of Eight - - the United States, Britain,
France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and Russia.

"I think what you'll eventually see is a meeting of a certain number of industrialized nations ... more
than a G8 and less than a huge group," the official said.

The planned initiative by the administration came amid growing opposition in Congress from both
Republicans and Democrats to committing taxpayer money to bailing out Asian countries, which
some lawmakers accuse of profligate, corrupt, incompetent and repressive policies.

Congress is at loggerheads with the Clinton administration not only after blocking extra money for
the International Monetary Fund, which has led Asian bailouts of more than $100 billion, but also
concerning funding for the United Nations.

Congress raised the pressure on the administration Wednesday with the House Banking
Committee announcing it will send a high- level delegation to Asia and summon Treasury Secretary
Robert Rubin, Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers - - currently on a mission in Asia - -
and Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan to testify Jan. 30 on the turmoil.

Also, the second- ranking Democrat in the House, David Bonior, announced Wednesday he would
oppose any bailouts that hurt workers in Asia.

Leaders of major industrial countries agreed at their 1995 summit in Halifax, Canada, on reforms
of the IMF including a system that was supposed to give early warning of financial crises. But
critics now say the reforms were woefully inadequate and failed to forestall the crisis.

Asked if an effort was under way to put together a "Halifax II" package of financial reforms, the
senior official responded: "Yes."

The senior official said the prospective meeting to address the crisis would "talk about
transparency, talk about the international financial institutions and talk about what kinds of rules,
regulations, reporting standards and so forth should be attempted."

The official also said Clinton was being urged by some advisers to take a "very, very hard" line on
both money for the IMF and the United Nations when he makes his State of the Union speech to
Congress Jan. 27.

In his speech, Clinton is expected to "make a major pitch for our involvement in this ( restoring
stability in Asia ) ... and he will link it to support which was denied last year for the IMF in general
and for paying off our U.N. dues," the official said.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:15 - ID#255151)
Gold 101

Here is a must see site for the chemical and physical properties of Gold explained in layman's terms. "Gold is a noble metal. It is softer than silver and harder than tin. It is the most ductile and malleable of all metals."

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:16 - ID#261139)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:20 - ID#255151)
Try Again

My last URL didn't work. Here is that Gold site- -

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:20 - ID#26793)
Russian company says all miners now fully paid.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:23 - ID#26793)
Cryptic comment by Tietmeyer????

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:25 - ID#26793)
BOJ selling "foreign" bonds

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:31 - ID#26793)
Silver squeeze investigation shows metal shipments to London

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:34 - ID#248180)
Donald @ G-7 Global Meetings re Currency
The perception is that the G- 7 has enough power to decide currency issues globally. When one examines the majors in the group it is fair to say they do determine much of what happens in and for the global economy. But something is missing in the article. What reports have we of any meeting between the bleeding Asian Tiger Nations, China and the Arab Nations. If the wounded Tigers, China and Arabs decide to determine some of their own destiny aside from the G- 7 group, we are in for absolute currency turmoil and strong upward movement in PM's. A start of this problem for the G- 7 is for the Wounded Tigers to simply default on payments to the G- 7 group banks and IMF. Just move Sideways - this may be a tad simplistic but something is missing in this mess.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:38 - ID#26793)
World Bank may be given broad new powers to rescue everything that breathes

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:43 - ID#30116)
Donald__A - - "Semi- repaired". The mysteries of NT and Microsoft!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:48 - ID#26793)
Notice that each country Summers visited had big stock drops last night.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:52 - ID#243212)
farfel@ 03:37 - Who are the psychos shorting gold???
See my post at 20:01 of yesterday!!! Besides, the manipulators "freeze" the POG to the US$ every time the panick hits crescendo...including the "bad" day last's all done with PAPER as opposed to PHYSICAL gold...the manipulators will continue to control the POG until the derivative market is unravelled through the REDEEMING of the PHYSICAL gold from the BANK vaults so that the MULTIPLIER effect on the POG is disengaged!!!!!! See my post of yesterday for details...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 06:52 - ID#57232)
Sharefin, all: LBMA and the paper price of gold
Sharefin: Are you up? Did you see my post about the LBMA last night? It could be very important - - ANOTHER might be right about a sudden shift in the price of gold by hundreds of dollars within days, and a gold "corner" might not even be necessary.
My reasoning goes like this: We know the following:
1 ) Central Banks have been pushing down the price of gold using "paper" gold ( derivatives ) . Thus we know that the physical gold price can be manipulated in this way. The gold "shorts" have also joined the bandwagon, accelerating to some degree the trend the CB's started.
2 ) The LMBA daily volume in "paper" gold is now approaching the annual volume of physical gold produced by the gold mines.
3 ) We know that futures of various commodities can differ significally from the physical commodity price, due to sentiment swings regarding which way a commodity price is expexted to go.
4 ) We know that significant variations in stock index prices can occur due to purachase/sales of derivatives in that index.
The conclusion is inescapable - - the apparent price of gold is no longer rigidly linked to the supply of physical gold. The only question remaining is how far from equilibrium can we be. For this we need an expert in commodities to step up and give us an estimate, based on the volume of physical gold traded daily, relative to the volume of gold derivatives. I submit that is the LBMA volume is equal to the total volume of physical gold produced in one year, the volume of "paper" gold is disturbingly high. By the way, one cannot simply look at the price of gold on a market where only "physical" gold is traded to see what the price of gold is, because the LBMA volume apparently dwarfs all other markets, like a steadily growing back hole.
My conclusion from this is that ANOTHER may be right after all - - the "short" gold derivatives could unwind abruptly causing the price of gold to rise hundreds of dollars in a few days. All we need is some input from some experts to tell us just how bad the situation is, and how soon this could happen. Hopefully someone knows what this could be, based on their experience with other markets. Black and Scholes may rue the day they discovered their rules for pricing derivatives, just as Alfred Nobel rued the day he discovered dynamite.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:00 - ID#26793)
These guys need to pull out some dusty history books to find out that nothing works except gold. Period. How many times does civilization need to learn the same lesson before it finally gets it right? The solution to the problem is so easy. The problem is that the solution requires pain on the part of those who deserve it.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:01 - ID#289357)

The precipitating agent could be Frank Veneroso's conference call. When it is scheduled to occur? I assume that within minutes/hours after this call, all the info will be here @ Kitco for all to see and act on.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:04 - ID#26793)
Can I hire you now to work on my tax software problem?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:04 - ID#248180)
JTF @ Paper Au zs Physical Au "Real" Numbers & Data
Reckon you're smokin son. Sounds good. You got the idea but gettin the facts is a monumental tasks. Those in Know are a keepin them cards close to their chests and besides it is a very exclusive area to try and source accurate information from. Stay on it and Thanks

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:04 - ID#57232)
Logging off? Sharefin -- take care! Looks like a pretty big critter heading your way!
Sharefin, and everyone else down under! Hope your houses are battened down for what we "up overs" call hurricanes. I don't know what grade it is - - but hurricane Hugo hit Charleston SC while I was there, and clipped off all the trees at about 40 feet. One foot wide steel I- beams were bent like pretzels from hundreds of mini- tornados. Miraculously only 3 died. We know it was going to be bad when virtually every Naval ship able to head out to sea left the night before, and one of the Nuclear subs that couldn't decided to settle on the bottom of the bay. After the hurricane, we had utility repair trucks from virtually every state in the US, it seemed. They were a welcome site. Took too weeks to get electricity, and months to get over the psychological effects of the devastation. Take care, please, and head inland if you need to.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:07 - ID#238295)
gold and Asia
Gold now off slightly after rallying modestly overnight as Asian markets tank again. Make no mistake - - gold and the Asian markets will continue to move in the same direction.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:09 - ID#26793)
We sent you truckloads of donated groceries from Connecticut during the Hugo thing.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:10 - ID#248180)
@ Purddy Green & Gold top of the Kitco Page!
Auhhh ain't those green & gold colours prettier than an X- Mass tree!!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:12 - ID#364147)
Not enjoying the new deck.............yet
8 degrees with 40+MPH winds~~~~~~~~~~~

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:13 - ID#248180)
Old Gold
A while back the players stated that gold was miserably hooked to the DOW and it seemed to be. Now you state that it is hooked to Asian Markets. Why? Thank you in advance

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:13 - ID#57232)
SIlver and the LBMA --- Should have guessed!
Donald: Great post! Where else could all that silver be going, except through the LBMA? I wonder - - just how much is the trading volume of silver on the LBMA versus other markets. Wasn't there a big flap about copper not so long ago?
And - - - if the authorities sue to find out where the silver went during this current shortage, I'm willing to bet that the trail stops at the LBMA. Aurator - - any comments? My guess is that is all the investigators will find - - namely that the silver is gone, if it is being traded like gold.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:17 - ID#289357)
JTF - others
Gold bottoming

CRB Index bottoming

USdollar Index topping

Treasury yields bottoming

Crude Oil bottoming

All the signs are here for a change in the tide.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:26 - ID#289357)
JTF - LBMA & silver transhipment
I think you're right - the silver trail will end @ LBMA.

Probably the stuff is sitting in Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong as we speak, never to be seen again ( or at least traced ) .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:34 - ID#238295)
Gold and Asia
Junior: Asian demand dominates the global market for physical gold. So when their markets and currencies tank, the dollar moves up and gold comes under pressure. Do you think it is a coincidence that last fall's horrible gold smash occurred at the same time the Asian markets and currencies were going into freefall?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:34 - ID#333131)
@dollar watch
The dollar still looking toppy this morning.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:40 - ID#289357)
JTF @ Hurricanes
I agree with the warning you gave Sharefin - I'm in Charlotte NC, and although we didn't get slammed as bad as Charleston, 95 miles per hour winds for 5 hours made this place look like a war zone for about 6 months.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:41 - ID#364147)
@ New Scotland(Nova Scotia)----------HAGGIS
Haggis ya ever been ta New Scotland ( hahaha )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:47 - ID#364147)
Serves them(QUEBEC) right------IDIOTS
Thanks partly to its low operating costs - - and some generous government
subsidies - - nearly 80% of Quebec homes rely on electric heat today,
compared with just 15% in 1970. But now that temperatures have plunged
below zero and parts of the electric grid remain in fragile condition, that
dependence on electric heat is part of the problem. While power has been
restored in most of Montreal itself, about one million people in the region
were still without power Wednesday.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:54 - ID#364147)
WSJ Palladium news
WSJ:Palladium Hits 18- Year High
Amid Unease About Supplies

Dow Jones Newswires

NEW YORK - - Palladium futures climbed to an 18- year high at the New
York Mercantile Exchange as concerns mounted about a possible
interruption in supplies from Russia, the world's largest producer.

Russia has yet to sign a supply contract with Japan, its main buyer and the
world center for platinum trading, stirring unease about a repeat of the
break in supplies that occurred during the first half of last year.

The March contract for palladium in New York rose $3.15 to $239.55 a
troy ounce, having earlier reached a high of $248.00, a price not seen
since March 1980. The contract reached the limit set by the exchange
during its previous three trading sessions.

"In normal years, not like last year, export agreements between Russia and
Japan are fairly well set by the end of the year. That there's not anybody
negotiating a contract at this time is causing some concern," said Aran
Murphy, senior economist of the Platinum Guild International in New

Joshua Giordano, a trader at Mitsubishi International Corp., said that
although Russia was the main influence on the market, prices were also
buoyed by physical demand and talk about hoarding of palladium by large
investment funds. Hoarding of a commodity is sometimes used by
speculators to force higher prices, a strategy known as a squeeze.

"Russia is at the forefront, but you also have to mix in auto demand, the
squeeze, a little of the Asian economic situation, general hedge- fund
buying, and speculators coming in. It's all of these things together," Mr.
Giordano said.

However, the uncertainty about Russian supplies is likely to be resolved,
said Mr. Murphy. "I think the market would be quite surprised if we had a
complete repeat of last year's failure to ship for the first half of the year.
We may be seeing some people adding to their inventories right now just
in case, but by and large they expect the shipments to begin in a more
prompt way than last year," he said.

In other commodity markets:

PORK BELLIES: Futures fell to two- year lows on the Chicago
Mercantile Exchange because of heavy supplies and a weaker cash
market for hogs, analysts said. The nearby February belly contract fell 2.3
cents to 47.72 cents a pound, the lowest

(Thu Jan 15 1998 07:54 - ID#255151)

ANOTHER idea for the Wet T- shirt logo. "Gold: When it goes down, you can buy it cheaper!"

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:05 - ID#348169)
Come on Ted, have a little more sympathy for the people. The direction that the province took in regards to heating was probably due to the decision of about 5 corporate and governmental overlords ( including the premier of the day, whom I saw on some old film footage last night declaring that ( in regards to the James Bay project ) he 'felt like a powerful conqeror' ) . These guys think they know what is best for everybody. Obviously their human decisions are fallible. Ontario Hydro and Quebec Hydro have both made massive costly mistakes in the past, but of course its O.K., because there is always the public purse to pay for the billion dollar errors.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:09 - ID#26793)
On the silver corner...why is it illegal to do that? I thought we were in favor of free markets? I guess they will have to open the CBMA ( Cayman Bullion Marketing Association ) Why is it legal for governments to do things that people are not permitted to do?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:11 - ID#426220)

BLACK GOLD - - 1998 Crude Oil Forecast

Crude Oil - The price of crude oil is likely to continue its slide well into spring months as U.S. demand remains low and the glut of crude oil of the world market swells. Prices could easily drop to
1994 levels- - around $12.50 for Arab Light - - before turning around.

What all of this figuring comes down to is that market gasoline prices are driven by the spot price of gasoline and today's cost of crude oil. But the market price of gasoline bears no relation to the refiner's actual costs or profits.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:17 - ID#364147)
Mooney----if ya want ta be a DEPENDANT nit-wit(electric heat in a Northern Climate)
You get what you derserve....I have NO sympathy for people in the 'Great white North' who are totally dependant on electic heat ( the ) and then whine when their subsidized 'juice' is cut off...Another 'bennie' of wood heat is it's better than sand to combat ice of the driveway....80% of the Quebecers heating solely with electricity is PATHETIC but typical of Quebec- The French....Not too spoiled of a!! Go ALTERNATIVE energy!!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:25 - ID#93232)
@vronsky...gee, thanks for the oil post....ugh.
I am the Scarab with black oily feet pushing a ball of gold up Giza. Maybe we'll hear a blurb soon about the Opec boys getting back together for a chat....otherwise....I'll have another cubalibra, por favor. Good day, sir.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:48 - ID#348169)
Hey Ted! I know what you're saying and totally agree that electric heat is the worst choice, but when the princes of power tell the people 'here we are making this James Bay energy project for you, the people, so that you can all enjoy unlimited, clean, cheap power for your homes for the next hundred years' do you really expect many SHEEP to argue? ( As far as protesting it ( the James Bay decision ) it was only the native indians in the area and a few environmental groups of the day; the goverment naturally squashed opposition and did what they pleased - just as the Kings of old.
As for throwing out the old back- up oil or wood system - well anyone who actually did that - I agree with you - got what they deserve. However most newer homes, ( in urban areas and suburbs AAR ) come with one system and that is the way the whole neighbourhood is built - the choice ( almost totally decided by governMENTAL decree ) in Quebec was electric. Where I live, and indeed in most of Southern Ontario, millions of newer homes ( last 25 years ) come equipped with only the one choice - natural gas. However - at least we could warm our bones around the stoves and toasters if Saddam ever blew up our gas mains. ;- )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:52 - ID#26793)
IRS having trouble hiring Y2K programmers

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:54 - ID#364147)
Mooney............Canadian Gov'ment decrees and where they can stick em
Leemings are us~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BBL

(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:59 - ID#424187)
More positive articles starting to appear about GOLD .Its not the DEMON that everybody thought.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 08:59 - ID#426220)

What If the Dollar Just Keeps Rising?

Nationally syndicated market analyst, Rick Ackerman, shares his insights about the adverse strength of the greenback.

Business couldn't be better, consumers are as confident as they've been in years, the dollar is king and interest rates are bouncing near multi- year lows.

Not much for U.S. investors to worry about, right?

THINK AGAIN. That strong dollar, of all things, is threatening to
blight the rosy picture by destabilizing financial markets and
constricting global trade. Moreover, there is no apparent way to

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:11 - ID#26793)
Trillions of derivative assets are done off balance sheet say Boston analysts news& doc_id= PR19980113NYTU052& ticker=

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:25 - ID#280215)
Commitment of Traders Report
Glenn or anyone:

I know of the COT reports for the commodities markets and I know what is included in the reports. However, I never have really looked into how to interpret the reports to get an idea of direction in the markets. What are the things to look for? If anyone can give a brief explanation or refer me to a site that explains how to interpret the report, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:32 - ID#398105)'s a rough life being a Scot........

A Scotsman visited London for his annual holiday and stayed at a large
hotel. However, he didn't feel that the natives were very friendly. "At
three o'clock every morning," he told a friend, "they hammered on my
bedroom door, one the walls, even on the floor and ceiling. Sometimes
they hammered so loud I could hardly hear myself playing the bagpipes."

Steve - Perth
(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:39 - ID#284177)
Steves specially edited: NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

Soeharto yields to IMF

US to convene more financial plotting & scheming

South Korea pleads poor on US bail- out

Crisis may eat Asian chips

Agricultural exports to South Korea grind to a halt

Profits of arms manufacturers will far due to Asian cancellations

Tokyo spends to avoid slump - will it work?

Results indicate Gold oversold

Banks move on the Asian crisis

Crisis of confidence despite rally

Asian blowout feared for European car makers


Asia a worry for German banks

IMF blames sloppy banking for current crisis

Japan economy stalls as confidence wanes- - MOF head

Recession alarm bells ring

Japanese PM queries bank debt blowout

Sick NZ current account infects $A

Farm Debt on the rise AGAIN! Watch out for those interest rates!!

NZ fears Asian Crisis & Australian flow on

Aussie Property Trusts lead the field in Yields

What if the US Dollar just keeps on rising?

Peregrine Merchant Bank - An Asian Chicken coming home to roost

Foes of IMF plan rally to fight Clinton

Central Europe suffers emerging- market flu

Delinking HK dollar a different ball game

Taiwan prepares for yuan's fall by June - - just in case

Doubts over use of RBAs TWI in measuring balance of Trade with Asia

Indonesian food panic the worst since 1960s - IMF, US to rescue Rupiah

Over 90% of Indonesian Companies technically bankrupt



Soros to do Korea over again - softened up for the kill

Deflation fears take bonds back to the 60s

GREENSPAN DEFLATION SPEECH: Problems of Price Measurement

After 15 years the bulls are looking for a break

Reproducing the 1930s

Mid Level Officials lobbying for Chinese Devaluation!

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:49 - ID#376309)
There is no article or book about the COT report that one can read to become an expert, and the COT report in and of itself does not determine if gold is in a bull or bear market. There are many different things I look at and how they change relative to the price and chart action of gold and in the end it is more of an art than science.

I don't know why I'm telling you this, you should be able to figure it out on your own. Look here for gold on dec 30.

then look at this report for the "CONCENTRATION RATIOS".

You will see that for the last report the "4 OR LESS TRADERS : 8 OR LESS TRADERS" traders for "NET" position and "All" that the big guys had a larger short position than a long position. This is actually rare these days since the biggest guys are commercials and they are normally net long.

This is all the info for today. Enjoy.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:56 - ID#22451)
I've heard that argument of being too big to fail ad nauseum. What would really happen if they spoke the truth and said, BIG BOYS, you made your bed, sleep in it. Some one else would come in and take over the assets of Mr. Big for pennies on the dollar, recapitalize and continue. If not some other big bank would fill vacuum.

I'm sure the taxpayer would certainly appreciate it, and our Reps would have finally done something honest.

I believe we both know that it is better in the long run to take your medicine instantly than prolong the illness.

Me thinks that there is more involved; Good Ole Boys Club, financial conflict of interest, etc.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:59 - ID#368244)
Producer selling

Why are producers selling so aggressivly on each small rally? Which ones are doing it, and why? Is it more here than meets the eye? Would someone explain this please?

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 09:59 - ID#273112)
Forging the golden stake to drive through the black heart of the Fed/CBs
All - I did my part again - snapped up 20 ounces of Maples ( no bloody US Eagles - tainted with Nazi gold perhaps, eh? ) this morning. Blanchard rep says last quarter was the best he's ever seen. Apparently they can't keep gold in stock. Down side is the ( arrgh! ) long wait. In Dallas, Tx, same story from Dillon Gage - they're out of Maples and the shipments are late and it goes as fast as it show up. Of course, no one really wants this "worthless" stuff, eh, LGB/Karlito?

Although the metals have intrinsic value quite on their own ( unlike confidence- scam fiat paper - plently of South East Asian marks in misery now ) , let's CALL THE BASTARD'S GAME - buy & take possession of gold, silver, platinum, paladium, rhodium, ruthenium, osmium and gadolinium! Let's watch their gold- paper derivitives detonate in a mushroom cloud of lies!

This is war. Make no mistake. Smooth- talking bankers, diplomats and politicians have been and are living the good life, controlling and enslaving us, bribing us with paper promises. The pyramid of manipulative paper- based lies must be destroyed; it leads to false prosperities & savage collapses.

Replace paper- lies with honest, gold- based money controlled by each of us individualy, that lead to slow but steady improvment and keeps inflating governments in check and in the control of We the People.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:00 - ID#31868)
all - re: steves news about financial reforms in global meeting
I don't want Printin Clintin to have anything to do with the financial system of the 21st century. We don't need anymore of his good ole boy crap in the future.

If they do not discuss gold at this conference the whole world will know they have no intention of cleaning up the mess THEY created. Buy gold and silver.

Protect your family from Washington. We clearly have no leaders, only swill from the bottom of the barrel of crap in the capitol.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:02 - ID#410194)
Historical event
Afer being shut down for a full week, our downtown Montreal has been made available for business again today but for limited hours only.

What's even more unprecedented are the hundreds of thousands of trees that have been damaged and/or destroyed in and around Montreal by the fierce ice storm of last week. About a million people on the southshore ( Monteregie ) will not see their power back for another week or two!

What looked like the storm of the century at first, it's now agreed upon by analysts that such an event occurs once every 10,000 years! Cold air was trapped on the ground while "mild" depressions were dumping rain on our region one after the other for 5 days in a row. On the final day of this scary experience, we witnessed lightning and thunders ( in January! ) as the trapped cold air finally began to move.

Coming this spring, we will probably realize that our city and the surrounding regions may never look the same again in our lifetime.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:03 - ID#187218)
NIGHTLINE last evening
I'm surprised that some are touting ABC ( ala "NightLine" ) for presenting the Asia situation in a truer light than they mostly do ( not ) . Did anyone see the caveat that Koppel opened with stated the conspiracy theorists regarding the CFR, Trilaterals, and Bilderbergs as being "Poppycock" and "non- sense". He is a member of either the TLC or CFR. I do agree though despite his arrogance rejecting an 'inside- play' it was surprising to see the piece ...

Details may be here tomorrow ...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:04 - ID#254269)
$43 Billion for the next three minutes; Today's WSJ has an imaginary transcript of
the conversation between Clinton and Suharto last Thursday. It is on
page A18. This is a MUST READ if someone can electronically post
it. TIA.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:10 - ID#262351)
EBN site
The site I used to obtain commodity prices including gold, silver and oil was EBN which no longer works.
Is there a different address or a better site?
Thank you

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:10 - ID#187218)
Spud Master
I can't afford 20 at a time. I usually do 2- 3 per month BUT called last week to Blanchard to get my normal shipment with my normal rep - - - - He never called back - - - called later in the day to find out the Blanchard changed their policies and personnel.

They have dedicated numismatic guys/gals and seperate bullion folks. Before my rep would do both for me. OK - so get me a new bullion rep and gimme 2 Eagles - - - Sorry, if U don;t buy a minimum of 5 Eagles Blanchard adds an additional $45 surcharge PLUS shipping PLUS premium. According to the rep Blanchard was losing money selling 1% over spot + $10 shipping. I'm glad I got 3 in December. I'm going to Toronto where I can walk right into the Bank cash- n- carry..... eh ....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:12 - ID#23782)
That is an interesting report. Thanks, I am enjoying.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:19 - ID#258427)
@BRIDGE...EBN new url

then choose markets....commodies are way over to the right...almost off the screen...

oh...go gold

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:28 - ID#31868)
Try Jefferson Coin and Bullion - 800- 593- 2585 Ask for Mr. Russ Savage, he will not jerk your chain or BS you. NAHO

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:40 - ID#344290)
Confiscation and Morality
After reading good posts on Govt. confiscation - it wouldn't work now as it would be almost impossible to seat a jury to convict, IMHO.

Regarding whether it is right or wrong to speculate on currencies of financial systems under stress - Mr. Soros and his kind are taking a position and placing a bet in an open market. Is this immoral? I think not - this is after the issue of immorality. The wrong was done by the corrupt, incompetent, and/or inneficient bankers, politicians, or bussiness persons long before Mr. Soros arrived. The speculators are cutting the puppy dog's whole tail off at once rather than one joint at a time. IMHO

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:41 - ID#288337)
I like Liberty Coin Service at 800- 527- 2375 or 517- 351- 4720.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:49 - ID#427357)


Nationally acclaimed analyst and oft CNBC- TV financial guru shares his diagnosis of recent market action... and gives his prognosis of what is looming on the horizon.

He likens recent US market action to the Japanese Big Bear that began in January 1989, and continues to growl as I speak. In a sense this does remind me a little of the Japanese break from its high near 40,000 seven years or so ago... In route to what eventually would be a 25,000 point decline, the Nikkei actually had more up days then down days; it's just that down days were lulus.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 10:59 - ID#333447)
Wetgold and all re coins
I just checked Jefferson Coin & Bullion for 10 Maples. Thanx to Tolerant1. I got the best quote I could find from about 8 dealers. One or 100 the same, gold was 283.9 and he said x 4.7 for a net of 297.24 plus $10 for s & h. Talk to Gerry. Got 10 end of Dec and working on 10 more. That was 30 min. ago.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:03 - ID#333447)
RE my previous-PS
I assume y'all know that Jefferson is Jim Blanchard. Blanchard dealer is GE. Jim sold out to them and is now Jefferson.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:12 - ID#427357)

TODAYS HEADLINES: Lenders are not blameless, say World Bank, IMF


Dr. Paul Hein explains the significant difference between the real devaluation of a currency versus its change in parity with the dollar. It is indeed an interesting distinction - which at least to me - not readily apparent. Dr. Hein uses the rapidly wasting away of the Indonesian rupiah as a perfect example.

Dr. Hein also blames greedy international bankers for the Asian currency chaos - - by overloading the Tiger economies with loan money that could not be put to effective and productive use to generate enough cash flow to pay on- going interest, and eventually loan amortization. Once the hapless country is unable to service burgeoning loans, the IMF is called in to administer the coup- de- grace in the form of chokingly stringent economic restrictions.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:14 - ID#333447)
Re coins
Damn, I messed up again. Tolerant1 has phone #. They have plenty in stock.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:14 - ID#286230)
Hey I'm Quotable
ANOTHER: said on Saturday

"Someone once said, noone wants gold, thats why the US$ price keeeps falling. Many thinking ones laugh at such foolish chatter. They know that the price of gold is dropping precisely because too many people are buying it!

I've been saying here that the price of gold is dropping because no one wants it for about 18 months and that it would continue to fall until it reached about the "average cost of production" which many suggest is about $285- - or now. Except for the usual back chat against any suggestion of gold's continued decline there has been little comment on this simplistic view except to note that it isn't complicated. Now ANOTHER seems to have given us a whole new joke. The price is going down because too many people are buying it.

I still say ANOTHER and other anonymous spooky posters who encourage the buying of gold are doing so because their employers are selling.

I did not read ANOTHERS comments on Sat because I always skip them but they are now appearing on other sites as humour eg SI Goldigger.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:17 - ID#31868)
Another site you should check out is http://www.e- it is an excellent way to accumulate metal. It is totally out of the current payment system.

I have an account and believe very much in the company and the folks there. In addition anyone you know that has an account that you do business with will not be affected by the funny money fiat collapse when it hits.

They are not a bank. They are the only alternative to the current global system of payments. Your money is literally 100% gold, silver, platinum or palladium.

Should you get nervous or wish to take posession, it is a key stroke away and YOUR money will be at the designated address in days. I know I have tested, retested and tested the system again and again.

Everybody here wants to use gold as money. I say you can, it exists and I trust e- gold and the people that built the system 100%

Of course, In My Not So Humble Opinion

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:17 - ID#280215)
Glenn - COT Report
Thanks Glenn, for your prompt reply. It is very much appreciated!


I agree with Glenn's assessment of a bottom. Almost all daily and some weekly indicators are signaling a turnaround coming. From solely a chart picture perspective, it looks like a downward wedge is trying to form ( FEB basis ) . If this is what is happening, we'll get a bounce to the 290 - 295 area, and then a final downward move to the 270- 275 area as he said. Then the upward move begins.

One cautionary note however, is that this same "picture" occurred on the weekly Gold chart in Mar - thru June of 97. Most people thought that mid June was the final move down on the wedge. However, as we know, in July it spiked down through the wedge and began a new leg downward to our current level. This wedge turned out to be a descending triangle consolidation wave 4 ( for the elliott wavers ) and not a wave 5 diagonal triangle.

If this current wedge is a wave 4 consolidation, we get the move down to the 255 area, possibly with a gap down to signal the final exhaustion. If this wedge is a wave 5 wedge, 270 - 275 is the bottom. My take is that with the divergences in ALL indicators ( including weekly ) just screaming "bull coming soon", I think we'll get the wedge to the 270 area and then the move up.

FWIW: The elliotteers take on the long term ( monthly/yearly ) perspective is that we are now ending a wave A, with wave B coming soon to about 375 - 385 area, and the final wave C down to some ungodly number like
$110. Then the greatest bull market ever in gold is supposed to begin. Wow, I have to wipe the sweat off my face!! Happy trading!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:32 - ID#31868)
I forgot to tell you that the Hein article is excellent. I just wish more people would go and read it. I have printed out copies and handed them out to people.

Go gold!

Get Camdesuss!

Aragorn III
(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:34 - ID#212323)
Tolerantl clients for e-gold
See my 12:15 post yesterday for an idea to help e- gold reach thousands of people.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:38 - ID#261352)
@ Donald_A Gold and Asia go in the same direction?
Is that CB, IMF, et al inflating to avoid global meltdown.Do
you sense any momentum change for AU provided by A. Greenspan?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:41 - ID#31868)
Aragorn III
I apologize. I had meant to compliment you yesterday on your 12:15, an excellent piece. Yes, Yes, Yes I agree with everything stated and I am in the process of doing my part to promote gold. In addition to family and friends.

Go gold, go e- gold!!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:43 - ID#34883)
How do you calculate prices with the Troy ounce?
Remember: what is a dollar? a pound of what? a yen for alchemy?

$$$ ... These mythical symbols are the King's new clothes.

A famous philosopher was enamored with that government debt currency

symbol $ also. Now I of course have not read her works ( about as popular

as Thomas Paine ) but from what I understand, within the context of what

she wrote she was glaringly wrong to be so.

At one time most thought it was in their best interest to have a centrally

planned economy, that of course, was before the economic calculation in

the socialist commonwealth debate.

( Hey don't forget Pope Sylvester II ! Algorithms ... I don't know, there may be cycles but within human action where free will exists there is no set time frame, we possess choice. And if we don't, It seems God ain't tellin. )

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:44 - ID#225408)
ANOTHER'S Thoughts

I do not pretend to completely understand either AG or ANOTHER. However, the latter long ago pointed out that vast quantities of gold change hands at the London Bullion Metals Association ( LBMA ) on a daily basis. ( Yesterday it was pointed out that oneay's trades dwarf the amount of CB gold sold in all of last year! ) HIS explanation is that most of this gold trading is related directly by the international oil market. This could only be substantiated by someone on the inside but is not so unlikely to be relegated to humor.

HE has also pointed out that the basic ( spot ) price is determined by the futures ( read: derivitive ) markets. Saturday's post by ANOTHER seemed to me to be saying that the POG has been pushed down by selling in the futures market, not outright buying in the traditional sense.

WHOEVER he is, one thing is certain: Taking HIS thought- provoking syntax and use of English out of context and calling that humor does little to further understanding of what he is actually saying. ( Whatever that is. ) IMHO

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:46 - ID#57232)
Markets/Business Free Enterprise -- with some rules!
Donald: I don't know if your 8:09 was tongue in cheeck or not. I have been hoodwinked by your Banker's wry humor before ( grin thing ( y? ) ) .

The way I look at the metals markets is that there should be a minimum of rules to allow free enterprise, but that no rules are dangerous. For example, all of those who trade need to know the rules of the game, and they should be fair. When there are "house rules", insider information and insider manipulation to the expense of the uninitiated, who have a different set of rules, that is going too far. I guess the house includes the market operators and government officials. I don't know if anyone should be allowed to corner a market - - but that is different from everyone having the same set of rules to play. I just get mad when the "game" is not the same for everyone.

Now, when our entire financial system is at risk in part because derivative trading of gold may be out of control, that is a serious matter indeed. That is like mucking around inside delicat machinery and expecting it to work just as well as before you did. The consequences may not be what you expected. I think after this fiasco with gold ends, there will be new rules about what individuals or banks can do with deriviatives. What is interesting is that is what G. Soros said years ago when he testified in front of congress. I think he was referring more to the international markets.

Finally, I do not support the steady inflation of rules and regulations that are sneaking up on us in the USA. My opinion of government is that it should be as little as possible, as free enterprise is much more efficient. Government is almost exclusively a consumer of resources, not a producer - - with the exception of defense. The best government is one that concentrates on defense,and setting up a minimum of rules so that the market/business participants play the game fairly. - - like a referee. But when the referees start playing in the game, or choosing sides to favor, that is unfair.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:48 - ID#333232)
Learning by International Example?
P.S. Miro - as always you are instructive & constructive - thanks

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:48 - ID#254269)
From Sydney Morning Herald (Australia)

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:51 - ID#261352)
Will China devalue? What is the impact on US and Gold?
Will China choose to devalue based on action of other Asian

(Thu Jan 15 1998 11:59 - ID#286230)
PH in LA (ANOTHER'S Thought
Point taken PH but there is nothing new about the LBMA information and it was thrashed out around here about 8 - 10 months ago. The fact that ANOTHER'S posts are hard to read means his posts are hard to read. To suggest that the price of gold is going down because too many people are buying it is about as close to humour as the depressing gold scene can get at the moment IMHO.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:07 - ID#339281)
WetGold: Cash and carry Maples in Toronto?
I live in Mississauga, I'm trying to make my first every purchase of 5 or 6 Maples. I've been to 4 banks including Royal and CIBC. No one knows how to handle a Maple Leaf gold coin purchase! The Royal Bank staff even replied "We don't have "Make Believe" gold coins"! I speak perfect English.

At which Toronto bank can I make a cash and carry purchase?

I'm also going to transfer $1000 into Royal Bank Precious Metals mutual fund in my group RSP - any comments?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:08 - ID#341293)
LGB and indicators ....
Hey GBL ( now a GOLD BUG LURKING ( Thanks HAgggis ) you mentioned a little while back to Strad that the best contrary indicator for you was Peutz. May I humbly ( :- ) suggest yourself as well. Whenever you have announced that you're going on a long trip, the DOW has fallen. Not a crash mind you but it seems to have missed you to no end. ( :- )


(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:10 - ID#261157)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:10 - ID#246224)
@Selby & PH in LA
If the paper market price dictates the physical market price, then those who sell off options in futures can move the POG down by sell off their futures positions. Next they take the money and purchase physical gold ( which was just dropped by the futures sales ) . ANOTHER was saying that the oil producing country was not happy with the paper game and wanted physical metal. So they are eliminating their paper positions, selling them. And then moving into physical buying. Since the POG ( physical ) is not determined on the physical market this gives them some time to convert their investments before all hell breaks lose.

The riddle 'the price is going down because people are buying' has to do with this weird arrangement. Paper is selling, but those who cash in their paper are buying physical gold. ANOTHER has alluded to this more than a few times by saying 'paper will burn' and other such things.

I listean carefully to his comments for a number of reasons. Usually a person who is making up a story will slip up somewhere along the line and then make a bigger mess by trying to invent other inaccurate details to cover the first mistake. In ANOTHER's case I haven't, so far, found this to be the case. His information is unconfirmable and so he is arguing from silence' as far as we know. But it is interesting and possible.

Maybe it is a joke. Maybe. But until something comes out which disqualifies his story I'm still listeaning and NOT laughing. He indirectly called this bottom. His story has plausibility and "we shall see..".

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:13 - ID#341293)
Re your choice of mutual funds.....


You can see which funds have the best gains . You might find that the Scotia Bank Metals fund seems to be the best but the most consistent is the Royal Bank for sure. Altamira is struggling as is TD for the moment. Royal has a larger amount of silver certificates to rely on so it is more diversified than the Scotia ( but less profitable in a rush! )


(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:14 - ID#57232)
Deviation of gold market price due to derivatives trading-how much?
Vronsky: You have special contacts who might have something substantial to say about what I said in my 06:52 post today ( 1/15/98 ) . Given that ANOTHER has warned us about this in his/her confusing, mysterious way, and we have solid evidence that at least part of the gold price is derivatives driven, and not driven by physical supply/demand, I think this question is probably the most serious question ever raised about the behavior of gold prices in the last few years. Namely: At what point does the volume of "paper" gold trading at the LBMA get so high that there is no longer any meaningful relationship between gold price, and supply and demand for physical gold. The daily "paper" gold trading volume is now equal to annual physical production. Is the doubling time for this every two years or it less than two years? When will the system breakdown? I don't have a clue - - but I think we should at least get an experts opinion. I wonder - - do you know F Veneroso? He might answer such a question in general terms - - since the world's financial system may be at stake.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:15 - ID#261157)


(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:18 - ID#426220)
CURRENCY TURMOIL IN 1998 by Milhouse



The economic supremo of Taiwan's ruling party, Lui Tai- ying, has challenged conventional wisdom on China's commitment to retaining a strong currency by warning of a MAJOR DROP IN THE YUAN BY JUNE.

Lui predicts a worst- case scenario of a 40 percent fall via a gradual devaluation, or a 25 percent one whack depreciation.

The Hong Kong Oracle has given another insightful and perhaps even alarming prediction of what currency turmoil to expect in Asia during 1998. It is definitely NOT a pretty picture. Milhouse gives his considered opinion on most major currencies and GOLD.

Gold will be the major beneficiary of the increasing currency
volatility wrought by EMU and the drive to inflate which is
already underway in almost every country. The reason it will
benefit is because it is the only form of money which exists
outside the financial system. As such, it is the only truly effective hedge against inflation. Any method of hedging against inflation which exists within the financial system involves a payment risk. Also, even if your non- gold hedge is 100% effective, you simply end up with a larger quantity of paper.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet Go To window ( Location ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:20 - ID#41229)
Allen@Gold paper
What market would the physical buying take place, since it would not be at the same market because the buying and selling would offset.

It also would answer the riddle.

If there was another market your scenerio would be accurate. But how would that market get its physical out of publics eye.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:22 - ID#22956)
a.m. stuff
Thanks Donald...I knew you would come through with some good info..... ( can I wash yer feet sometime? ) ....

Cherokeebanzai - I got yer mail and I pass the pipe back to you...but not before........ ( puff, puff ) .......aaaaaah... ( puff, puff ) ..............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... ( smile ) .... I get it now, part of the message was to Realistic. You got that Realistic??!? ( grin ) ...

Ted - your team needs all the help it can get ( you can trade for Michael and it wouldn't get ya' a trophy. And solar power is the viable alternative...and wind.......and water.......etc, etc. I wonder who has been blocking the Heavy R& D we should be putting into it ( hmmmm ) ??!?

No offense StudioR, but I am glad you are a rancher also. Oil is finite ( in the short run, relatively speaking of course ) ........wind and rain and sun are not. And neither is gold for that matter....

Haggis, I guess I'd be pissed ( off not up ) if somebody ripped a big stick outta me bum and put it on my shoulders. Hang tough Kalgooorie, AYE,EEOUCH!!

Good job on the Maples Spuds. I have said all along that it is the buy 'o the century for the physical...too bad ya' didn't wait though ( grin ) . Whats 25 bucks a coin though, eh? yuk, yuk.

Savage - Gulp, gulp..... ( the sound of large funds buying OJ ) ....damn straight....... ( smile ear to ear ) ....... ( a small chuckle of content ) is good..... ( a good back slap ) ....... ( and gas pass ) ..................

The three S's and I'll be gone...



(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:23 - ID#286230)
Cableman: Call the main branch of the Bank of Nova Scotia in Toronto and ask for the Gold desk.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:24 - ID#22956)
Probably a repeat but funny nonetheless...

One night in a local pub, a man stumbled up to the only other patron in a
and asked if he could buy him a drink.
"Why of course," came the reply.
The first man then asked, "Where are you from?"
"I'm from Ireland," replied the second man.
The first man responded, "You don't say, I'm from Ireland too! Let's have
another round to Ireland."
"Of course," replied the second man.
Curious, the first man then asked, "Where in Ireland are you from?"
"Dublin," came the reply.
"I can't believe it, " said the first man. "I'm from Dublin too!"
He continued, "Let's have another drink to Dublin."
"Of course," replied the second man.
Curiosity again struck and the first man asked, "what school did you go
"Saint Mary's," replied the second man. "I graduated in '62."
"This is unbelievable!" the first man said. "I went to Saint Mary's and
graduated in '62, too!"
About that time, one of the regulars came into the bar and sat down.
"What's been going on?," he asked the bartender.
"Nothing much," replied the bartender. "The O'Malley twins are drunk


(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:25 - ID#376309)
Gold supply & Demand are meaningless in determining if Gold is in a bull or bear market.
They only determine how high during a bull market and how low during a bear market. If the gold market is being manipulated then WHY is crude oil at a new 52 week low, cooper was recently at a new 52 week low, the CRB was at a new 52 week low rently also. How about the US bond market hitting new highs daily? Isn't gold an alternative to the US bond market? If teh US bond market were to crash and gold was still low then we can talk of manipulation but it isn't. It's doing great.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:25 - ID#333447)
Tolerant1 re e-gold
I remember looking at an e- gold site a few months ago. I forgot the details. It looked good, but have not thought about it since. Can you just buy and take delivery of coins? If so, what prem is there + s& h?Thanx for the info.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:26 - ID#288399)
Rainbow Coalition's Handout

Looks like Rubin/Greenspan et al are trying to silence any future objections from "minorities" about any IMF bailouts. It looks like Clinton's strategists sense a coming revolt by the US taxpayer at bailing out international bankers for their Asian mistakes. Jesse Jackson got wise after Mexico, and he's making Clinton pay. Good for Jesse! According to CNBC/NYSE head Grasso, minorities invest largely in CD's/cash instruments and need to be "educated" toward putting their savings into the "American dream" machine - - the US stock market. What a con! Get Jesse to get his followers in at the top and REALLY help bail out the investing community. What's wrong with "conservative" investing, anyway? Of course, once all "classes" of Americans put the majority of their savings in the stock market, it will be alot easier for Congress to "reform" the Social Security system by convincing us that a "portion" of SS should be in equities. The ultimate paper chase!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:26 - ID#286230)
Allen ( USA ) : You can laugh or not laugh. My point was he is encouraging readers to buy gold as gold declines- - why would he do that except to get people to buy.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:28 - ID#22956)
One more for the road........
funny thing, Bill Cosby used to say....or was it Flip wilson?? ...anyway.....he said, Don't offer a drink for the road...cause the already laid out!

last jokie here. for tort...

A young couple was out carousing one evening. While driving down the


the guy said to the girl, "If I go 100 miles an hour, will you take off



She agreed and he began to speed up. When the speedometer hit 100, she


to strip. When she got all her clothes off, he was so busy staring at her


he drove off the road and flipped the car. The girl was thrown clear



scratch, but her clothes and her boyfriend were trapped in the car.

"Go get help," he pleaded.

She replied, "I can't, I'm naked."

He pointed to his shoe that was thrown clear and said, "Cover yourself with


shoe and go get help."

She took the shoe, covered herself, and ran to the petrol station down the


When she arrived she was frantic and yelled to the attendant, "HELP! HELP!


boyfriend's stuck!"

The attendant looked down at the shoe covering her crotch and replied, "I'm

sorry Miss. He's too far in."

yuk, yuk!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:29 - ID#376309)
At no point can the volume of the LBMA make the physical market irrrelivant. Gold price is not a reflection of supply/demand but as an alternitive of the 3 month US T- Bill or basically confidence in the governments around the world.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:30 - ID#429395)
INPATHIQUE indicates gold peaking today/tomorrow
INPATHIQUE Analysis which called the Dec 9 low and the Dec 24 high correctly now shows the final phase of the bear starting with a bottom mid Feb. The free pattern for the TSE precious metals index provides an excellent clue to the future of gold: and the close up is updated daily

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:32 - ID#333447)
I forgot to say I tried site today 3 times- no luck.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:35 - ID#31868)
It would not make sense to buy through e- gold. They are not theere for that reason. They are an international payment system backed 100% by metal. Not a bullion sales house.

If you wish to redeem at some point they will ship YOUR metal pronto. I look at e- gold in many ways, one, a solid method of saving money, real money. Two a system of payments outside the fiat funny money morass.

Three as a method to begin to promote metal as money vs paper which is backed by the lying dog politicians, bankers and others who use YOUR money for their own benefit.

Go back and read through the site. I am sure you will open an account once you do. Try it, you will like it.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:36 - ID#31868)
www.e- I just went there and had no problem.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:37 - ID#390249)
Gold prediction posted last week . Predicted Jan 13th as fhe day for turnaround.

About a week ago someone posted a prediction on gold movement early this year. I recall that this prediction stated that gold's rally would begin January 13th. It would then go up a few days or weeks, come back down and then go up again. There were specific dates for these movements. I would like to track that prediction. If anyone can recall where it is, I would appreciate your reposting. Thanks in advance

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:39 - ID#273112)
Gentle reminder to EB...
don't & drink drive the Internet, Eric! Ask the femme de jour to make a tall glass of sweet lassi, swig it and go sleep it off. Meanwhile, covert Spud forces move on, taking no paper prisoners...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:43 - ID#365190)
buying gold (differences in perception)
There is a BIG difference between buying gold in Asia and in Western countries.

I'll speak of two places I know pretty well - Malaysia and Australia.

In Sydney, not too long ago, after learning about the looming gold problem ( problem as in price being manipulated ) here on kitco, I set out to try and purchase some gold coins. None of the banks I went to had a clue as to where I could go to buy them. Didn't matter if I wanted Kangaroos, Maple Leafs or Eagles or whatever. They just didn't sell them. Some bank tellers suggested I go to the Reserve Bank ... where I was told that yes, they did sell gold coins - once, when they had some promotion for one year some time ago. Not surprisingly, I was told to try a coin dealer ( where, I'm sure, the cut above spot will be higher ) . Strangely enough, some jewellery shops stocked Kangaroos, from small denomination 1/20s to 1 ozs. However, they marked the price up like you wouldn't believe. So there I was, in the biggest city of one of the biggest gold producing countries and I couldn't easily find a decent place to buy gold for investment.

Back in Malaysia ( my homeland ) . Want to buy gold? No problemo. Go to any major bank and ask. They'll give you a daily quote on Maple Leafs, S'pore Lions and Kangaroos ( isn't it ironic that you can buy Australian gold coins in Malaysia more easily than in Australia? ) . Price? At about the current ringgit price of gold ( verifiable by taking the US$ POG and doing the maths with the ringgit/US$ exchange rate ) with about 2% markup. Seems pretty fair to me. Heck, at least one daily newspaper, "The Star" has daily price quotes for gold coins in the business section. Jewellery shops here each have a big sign which quotes the daily price of gold for 24kt, 22kt, etc. fineness. If you ask for the price of a gold chain in one of there stores, they look at the tag on it, which only states the fineness of the gold involved and the weight of it, do a little multiplication with the stated price, add some markup and that's the selling price.

What's the point? The Australians ( and I figure, by correlation, quite a few Americans and Canadians, etc. ) don't know the value of gold and have bought the idea that it really is a "barbarous relic" of time past. Not so for Asians in Asia.

The anti- goldbugs ( or spewmongers ) can talk all they want. Asians value gold far more than the Western world gives them credit for.

In my heart of hearts, I hope ANOTHER is wrong. I hope there'll be time for me to cash in profits from my mining shares as the price of gold rises - profits, which I shall hastily use to buy property, gold ( physical gold ) and ... well ... some expensive toys.

Good luck to all goldbugs and goodnight ( or morning or afternoon or whatever ) .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:43 - ID#254269)
Dow at 7724 (down 61 points at 12.43 EST. The jokes are the best thing here today.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:44 - ID#197289)
re: Mississauga gold purchase.

The banks are agents of the Royal Canadian Mint but very few branches know anything about gold transactions. If you make a purchase from a branch they charge for the armoured car delivery ( seriously! ) . You can purchase the coins from the RCM directly over the phone. They have a web site. They mail the coins. Price includes insurance. You may get a better deal at a local coin dealer. If you get to downtown Toronto the main Bank of Nova Scotia has dedicated wickets for gold sales. There are also several bullion dealers around the Queen and Yonge area. They are not as busy as the BNS and easy to deal with. I have not bought the physical for several years but I inquired at Thomas Cook currency exchange in the Scarbourough Town Plaza when my mother wanted some wafers and they did have them in stock. Perhaps a call to Thomas Cook might find a local supplier. I have had a number of blank stares when talking about gold to bank personnel. It amazes me they work in an bank and k

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:46 - ID#339281)
Selby: Bank of Nova Scotia Mississauga Main branch knows whats up
When I called, they informed me:
cost is based on previous close, currently 298.50 for today's purchase
+$15.00 admin, +$15.00 Brinks, + GST on it all.
You can save $30 buy purchasing downtown Toronto at main branch 44 King.
Thank you.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:47 - ID#286234)
mornin' Ersel
The early bird gets the gold. That true Ersel?

Good ol' boy
(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:49 - ID#26344)
would like to get your e- mail address for furhter discussion regarding your post.

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:50 - ID#273112)
EB, are you making a bet, or just parrot-squawwwwking?
"Good job on the Maples Spuds. I have said all along that it is the buy 'o the century for the physical...too bad ya' didn't wait though ( grin ) . Whats 25 bucks a coin though, eh? yuk, yuk. "

You offering a bet that gold will drop to ( $284- $25 ) = $259/oz? or just squeaking about Blanchard's fee ( which isn't $25 btw ) ?

If it's the latter, I'll take you on! Standard bet of one 1/10 Maple wink?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:51 - ID#333447)
I think it's my problem or isp. I'm waiting on a call. These damn things are capricious as hell. Thanx.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:51 - ID#339281)
oldgoldpanner: RCM recommended Scotia or CIBC for investment coins
I checked the web site and called 1 800. The recommendation was go thru banks for investment coin delivered in plastic bag. They supply coins at premium cost in velvet gift case. I think I'll take my cash to downtown TO to make a purchase. Thank you.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:57 - ID#286230)
Cabelman: Given the trouble you have had at various local banks you would almost get the idea that not a lot of new buyers are checking out the physical market. Maybe ANOTHER should try harder.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 12:57 - ID#31868)
I could care less why people buy as long as they BUY!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:02 - ID#341293)

For an unknowning housewife, that's quite a good post. Are you sure your "husband" didn't help a little? Why don't you just come out of the closet and play it straight like the rest of us. Games are not appreciated here as you and "Hep" have both noticed I'm sure.


Lurker 777
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:03 - ID#317247)
Tolerant 1
Called Jefferson Coin and they quoted 8 day delivery after reciept of check. Is this correct? Thanks for the tip.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:06 - ID#227238)
PH in LA ( ANOTHER'S Thoughts ) : Without regard to delphic thoughts of Another; last spring I posed the thought that, perhaps, the Comex was being used to drive the world price down, with small transactions, while taking off physical in the London market on a larger scale and lower prices. Inasmuch as Comex traded much smaller volume than London, I used the analogy of an amplifier, at the time, because it seemed to fit the effect - if true.

From the initial announcement - "coming out" - of LBMA, it had bothered me to know that they were trading huge amounts of gold. All undercover with no apparent price signal. Where were/are they getting their price signal from? If they used Comex pricing, it seemed reasonable to assume that, because of its smaller volume, they could control pricing to their advantage without having to use much physical gold in the process. In other words, they have been able to jiggle a little gold in NY to control a large quantity in London. Hence, the amplifier effect.

Overall paper market forces have made it much easier to effect a successful operation. When the full light of day shines on this shoddy business, I still believe we will find that the scheme worked in a fashion similar to the above. We may be reaching that day soon.

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:14 - ID#225408)
Derivitives, ANOTHER etc.

Thank you for pointing out a fact that is frequently overlooked here at Kitco. Namely that: Gold and Silver are not commodities whose prices are affected by supply and demand. I have occasionally heard it estimated that 90% ( or some such number ) of all the gold ever mined in human history is still in existence today. This means that it is available whenever the price makes it attractive to sell it. This is the supply, not new production. Furthermore, without any real expendable use for the stuff, demand becomes strictly a function of how badly people want it...This of course explains why the price falls during periods of high interest rates, why mine closures have virtually no effect on prices and why CBs can loan out their reserves, etc. ( Can we imagine a farmer offering to loan out his siloed corn to a derivitives market gone mad? )

A whole essay could convincingly be worked up on this theme, which I will leave to those with more writing skill and time. But certainly, when someone with inclination surfaces ( such as ANOTHER ) bringing a coherant story to the forum, he deserves a serious hearing. As disclosed by StudioR last night, some very serious people in publishing are willing to take ANOTHER'S thoughts rather seriously indeed. ( As do many of us here. )

HIS understanding of the role played by the derivitves should be pondered and discussed until we, too, understand it well; as JFT has been pointing out since last night.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:14 - ID#376309)
the thought that trader are controlling COMEX and taking gold in london at a cheaper price is absurd. comex is a true reflection of the bigger picture. If big buying is done on LBMA then it will be reflected in the WORLD price of gold including COMEX.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:14 - ID#356379)
COT > Straddler, re your 9:25 post...

I have been a Commodities Trading Advisor ( CTA ) for over 15 years. It has been my experience that the COT report is hugely significant in that it tells you what the commercials anticipate. They have deep pockets and are seldom wrong. When they establish a large long position, you can bet the ranch that whatever the commodity is, its price will be going up.
Comversely, the small specs are almost always wrong. Think about who has the best access to critical information...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:16 - ID#269191)
Isure and Producer Selling
I don't think it's the producers. Speculators were heavy sellers on
this latest rally. Watch the lease rates. When the one month rate
goes up and the lease rate curve becomes inverted, then it's a good
bet the short sellers are active.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:17 - ID#20137)

Date: Thu Jan 15 1998 12:32
chas ( Tolerant1 ) ID#333447:

Did you check the pasted url for the - - - - . Space after dash problem??

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:17 - ID#288295)
Neophyte - Rebecca Nolan Gold trend forecast

Here is how I read the gold price trend chart from Rebecca Nolan ( Financial Astrologer )

Low at Jan 13
up to Jan 16
dn to Jan 28- 29
uptrend to maximum peak at Mar 4- 5
Irregular flat trend to end of April

I can fax copy of chart to you if in US or Canada
send request to

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:18 - ID#197289)
When I called around the coin dealers I found the prices varied a lot. A few phone calls might pay off. The RCM was more expensive than the local coin shops.

It is suprising that the banks, being in the money business, know so little about it. Good luck.

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:22 - ID#225408)

Do we actually know at what price gold is trading on the LBMA? Perhaps it is not a market at all as we know it. Are dollars actually being exchanged there for gold, or is gold ( and oil? as alledged by ANOTHER ) being traded for itself somehow?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:23 - ID#22956) Idaho connection.........with butter and chives.....
Now what of the former?? 259?? Could be... just don't know. The US$ might just have to run off the charts and stox rebound back into 8000's. Anything is possible at this juncture. I guess gold could even rally before it sinks back down, down, down...

I'll get back to ya with a wager...this could be fun.

btw, I know that Blanchard does not charge 25 bucks. They call me every week. I told them no thanks for now....but they keep calling, th emachine is full with messages. Who was it that said they couldn't get anybody to call them back?? Seems gold shortages that I see.....just call around, you'll find yer gold. Cheap too!

away... to earn some 'toilet- paper'...


Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:24 - ID#273112)
Click-click. Of course you don't have to 'contribute'... (re. Hillary 'invest')
Thai army to collect gold to aid nation

Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 Reuters

BANGKOK ( January 15, 1998 09:25 a.m. EST ) - Thailand's army is launching a nationwide campaign to
collect donations of gold and jewelry from the public to help the nation overcome its economic crisis, an army officer said

"By doing this the army wants to create patriotism among the people. To show that Thai people are ready to fight the
economic war," said Maj. Gen. Lertrat Ratanavanich director general of the civil affairs division.

"The nine days of collecting gold will begin from Army Day, which falls on Jan. 25," said Lertrat. "Thousands of people have
expressed their intention to help the nation after the army initiated the scheme two weeks ago. Some have even offered to
donate one or half a kilogram of gold."

The campaign, which stresses voluntarily donations, is expected to raise at least one ton of gold.

The army's original plan was to issue bonds in exchange for gold collected, but legal snags scuttled the idea, said Lertrat.

"The government can now sell the gold donated and bring dollars into the country without commitment to any bonds," he said.

Thailand is suffering its worst economic crisis in decades. Plans to raise funds from the public to help the nation have sprouted
since the International Monetary Fund arranged a $17.2 billion bailout package for Thailand last August.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:28 - ID#410194)
Trend changes?
The grains are currently shrugging off some weaker than expected export figures released this morning. It's becoming more and more obvious that the whole Asian situation has been factored into the markets. If it is indeed the case, the path of least resistance will now be to the upside until some future evidence that the weather will be perfect throughout the summer!

The Japanese Yen is now 200 points above it's lows of not too long ago...practically without any intervention. The beginning of a new multi- month trend?

Even Live Cattle seems to have put in a bottom this week and now the news are coming out to support it, the latest being some "import bans" being lifted soon in Europe.

For now, odds are strong that several commodities will now correct to the upside.

Even Gold took notice.....and could very well trend higher along with the CRB Index!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:30 - ID#41229)
That would fit also with the statement that Comex is just a side show.

This situation would be of the Arabs doing, selling paper on Comex, buying physical on LMBA. The part that doesn't fit is why would the price price of gold be allowed to stay at a low level, it would work against buyers of oil if the transaction is done by weight rather than dollar amount. Meaning if gold is over sold to the amount of 8000 tons and individuals need to cover, with the price so low it is an double edge sword, yes they can cover sells cheaper, but is not the increase in demand working against them more than having to purchase @ a higher price. In other words, a new factor has been added to the equation, The limit physical supply is now being bought up by everyone, while the large paper positions are being sold.

Need to spend more time on working the scenerio out, large amaunts of physical would still have to be sold or bought off market if you will. Where would all this physical come from?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:30 - ID#243180)
Cable_Man @ 12:07
Sorry! I've been enjoying tea and Crumpets since this morning and just getting back to Kitco.

I asked the question yesterday to the group regarding gold purchases directly. Selby has mentioned that they could be purchased directly from the Main branch of the "Bank of Nova Scotia" in downtown Toronto ( as U already know ) . While reading old message from today I noticed post from selby @ 12:23 and OldGoldPanner @ 12:44 to help U in this matter.

Will discuss travels to Toronto with wife this evening over dinner which will include a stop over at the Bank.

Sorry for the delay ....

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:32 - ID#273112)
@EB: I want that wink. Take the bet.
I can forsee the wink becoming like "The America's Cup" ( before, of course, it was artistically modified in OZ ) , passing from hand to hand, the list of winners & dates inscribed on an attached Wiemar- era 1,000,000,000 mark note.

The bet:
EB says: gold to hit $259.00 sometime during 1998.
Spud says: no way in hell.

The wager: One 1/10 Canadian Maple Leaf ( hereafter refered to as "The Wink" ) , minted from virgin Canadian gold, wrested from the innocent earth by the rough hands of hardy miners.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:33 - ID#227238)
Glenn: Given a thinly traded market with historically hysterical negative sentiment; is LBMA control of Comex price trends anymore absurd than the obvious control of derivatives ( options ) on closing contract prices??? It seems to me that options traders, in the aggregate, do a fair job of manipulation all by themselves. Scale that up to a larger entity or entities with deeper pockets and governmental support and it assumes a greater measure of plausability.

If the fed can buy and sell the SP in support of general equities; why would paper manipulation of Comex gold be a major absurdity?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:34 - ID#246224)
(Earl, Selby & All)@Shoddy Business ..
or just playing the game. Whatever. It is indeed a confused mess. As you say Earl there will be a revelation and it will be INTERESTING, so long as you are well positioned in the physical. The physical deficits of the past ten years, no doubt, were turned into paper promises ( with garrantees ) for those willing to accept them. But at some point this is not tenable is it??? At some point someone will want their promises paid on. If you knew this, then you would wish to silently exit the theater at the most propitious moment.

Selby, there are discrete markets; Dubai handles 67 tonnes a month ( publicly ) . I'm sure they get it from SOMEwhere ( and handle more than this in a private manner ) . Turkey ( recent entrant ) , Singapore. Venezuala & Columbia. A post in the past few days ( over the week end? ) indicated a news item ( 1996 ) indicating that a small island ( 35 sqr Km ) in the Arabian Sea was being built into a 'commodities storage center'. They were honest enough to mention gold as one of those commodities, but they buried it in the list.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:34 - ID#212132)
Front - why don't you get your head out of your ass and stop lumping me
in with "remote viewing" disciples who hide behind 500 handles?

Was I "kidding around" when I said gold was going to $325, to
$310, to $300? Was I "fooling around" when I called people
who were using this forum as their playground? Am I "goofing
off" when I call $277.25 the bottom in gold?

I know full well what problems Kitco has, and they are not mine.

Here is a suggestion as serious as sin: Stop mentioning my name
as anyone other than a person who should be accorded respect on
this site, since I was posting correct calls while everyone else
( save two or three ) was wallowing around in their own feculent
masterpieces about the Dow going to 4000 or gold rocketing
to $1000 and making this site a laughingstock among serious

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:35 - ID#339274)
FWIW..Gold stocks are turning flat.Sell and stand aside

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:36 - ID#57232)
Physical Gold supply and demand, and other variables that affect gold price
Glenn: Consider a simple market where derivatives cannot distort price ( personally, I wonder if any are left! - - Certainly not the sp- 500 ) . For physical gold, supply is gold production and recovery from other sources, or physical gold sales ( individuals or Central banks, etc ) . Demand is jewelry consumption, gold purchases by individuals or Central banks. Price is then determined by simple supply and demand. This is the ideal, and this can be readily understood ( except of course CB gold transactions are top secret ) . Inflation and deflation clearly affect gold supply and demand. There are also time constants associated with each of these variables so that one can analyze the effects of shutting down the producers, and how long it takes to gear up again.

Now we add more complex variables - - derivatives. As we know for the futures markets, and the indices such as the sp- 500, the price can fluctuate significantly from the "true" equilibrium, based on the perception of the market regarding whether it is expected to go up or down. I don't know exactly how it works, but the sp- 500 can be clearly shifted up or down in price by the derivatives markets - - which are therefore not independent markets. Some derivative types are likely to be more or less effective at altering the underlying market price.

We now add one more variable - - the currency in which gold is priced. In the ideal world, the price of gold would be the "same" ( same buying power ) in all currencies. Unfortunately, it is not, because each currency fluctuates. But - - if everyone uses one currency to price gold and virtually all other commodities, then the fluctuations in that currency can cause the price of gold to fluctuate relative to other currencies, until it relaxes to it's true value. Unfortunately, these fluctuations in the underlying currency - - the dollar - - add one more complication to the formula that determines the "price" of gold. For example, the price of gold is now rising in more and more currencies. At the current rate, one might expect that in about 6 months, the dollar might be one of the few currencies where gold is "cheap" - - if the dollar stays "strong" that long.

I think I have discussed all the variables that affect the price of gold. There may be others. But - - it is my concerted opinion that the price of gold can be determined analytically in this manner if you know all the rules.

If as you say the price of gold cannot reliably be determined in a gold rally or bear, that just means you do not know some of the variables, IMHO. I still maintain that understanding the behavior of the price of gold ( even a little bit ) is probably the most important issue regarding the behavior of gold price of the last 5 years or so. Every time the volume of gold "paper" trading doubles on the LBMA that paper activity becomes more important relative to the physical price. Just like the equities market, nothing rises or falls without limit.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:37 - ID#227238)
Hep.nut: No one. Absolutely no one, has used more handles than you. ..... and it's interesting to note that your medication is still not working.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:39 - ID#426220)
(Physical Gold supply and demand, and other variables that affect gold price)
JTF: Regarding your commentaries about the above subject, when you have time pls get into eamil contact with me:

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:41 - ID#227238)
Hep.nut: @addendum: Strictly as an academic exercise; try posting something without first person references. Yer burnished ego is blinding enough as it is.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:43 - ID#373403)
Select American Gold and Select Precious Metals sure seem to get knocked down a lot more from a $2 drop in the price of gold than they are raised by $2 rise.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:44 - ID#194311)
Here's a plan.....
Why don't the Asian countries, who are known to have high per capita gold holdings, put enough into their central banks and then make gold paper loans to pay those people ( western bank/robbers ) , who have made dollar loans to them.
Seems like they would rather have a gold backed loan than a paper backed loan, right?

The paradox is clear....who owes who anymore? merely perception/deception

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:48 - ID#227238)
refer: The game comes undone when world demand increases. That is when gold is no longer a thinly traded market and buyers in the over the counter market must compete with everyone else. Everything is predicated on that assumption. For when demand is high in any market, ie many players involved, manipulation is no longer possible and price is more nearly governed by pure supply and demand. We ain't there yet in gold.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:51 - ID#22956)
Earl and The Cat.....
Shake hands. Earl, Hep was doing just fine until you provoked him. Please do not provoke, I would like the Hep to stick around. He has some good stuff to say. Grow some skin and carry on soldier.

The Cat - I am sure Earl forgot to take HIS med's this afternoon. Forgive him and you grow some skin too.......and, of course, carry on soldier. call 277.5 the bottom? Well...duly noted oh sayer...

Now let us all be good little gold- too Haggis :- 0 work, I'm late now.....but this is biz too, EH?


spuds, I will consider the 'wink- cup' wager...

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:52 - ID#212132)
And no one has had more derisive handles appended to them than me, especially tasteless ones
And yet, Earl, I make it absolutely clear who I am and never deny
it if people can't figure it out from my posting style and my
message. When George S. Cole started posting as "Old Gold", did
he own up to who he was? Has he overtly admitted it yet?
If you don't know where the hell gold is going, Earl, fine.
But don't be slandering people who do. I have to use other
handles, Earl, because everytime I appear on this forum someone
runs to Bart and says, "Oh, please, Bart, I can't enjoy myself
anymore if someone tells me I'm not the smartest and the most
beautiful on this forum". So I get kicked off. I would be
happy to be myself, but I am not allowed to. Please post your
real address here, Earl, and then we are in the same boat and
you can dole out advice. Otherwise, shut up. Your pretty
balloon didn't get punctured by me, Earl, it got punctured by
Glenn. Take out your anger on him. Maybe you can lobby to
have him kicked off. And stop treating the whole issue of
mental illness as a joke. It would be like me making fun of
your paunch and your baldness and calling you a fat slob.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:55 - ID#197289)
Aaahh! Eating crumpets and travelling to buy gold. Isn't life great.

Current quote from Thomas Cook 10 King St. East Toronto - 1oz

Maple Leaf 447.74 + pst 35.82. The 1oz wafers might be a better buy or . Good food at the Red Tomato ( downstairs ) 321 King West. Have fun.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:56 - ID#227238)
PH in LA: Sorry, I have no inside knowledge of such business. It seem to me though, that much of the LBMA activity is barter and settlement of commercial transactions. Oil would certainly fit into that category. ..... But at the end of the day, LBMA still needs a price signal from somewhere. They cannot determine value in a vacuum. If it's the much smaller Comex that's supplying the price signal; then I stand by my earlier idea. Good or bad.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:57 - ID#243180)
"Can't we all just get along here" ?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 13:59 - ID#22956)
and Savage......drinking golden......gulpy gulpy ;-)))
h M! .....oj is BEAUUUUTIFUL!! 2600.00 per March since last week......CHA- CHING!!!!!!!



(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:00 - ID#227238)
Hep.nut: ( Sorry EB. I disagree ) Hep, I rest my case. Try a different medication.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:02 - ID#201131)
The yen
As the yen goes up so does gold. It is that simple.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:04 - ID#227238)
Cyclist: Perhaps you were a bit premature. The XAU is stiffening its resolve a bit. ....... Most likely a momentary aberration. ...... It really hasn't even been a tradeable move yet.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:06 - ID#212132)
I want to make it perfectly clear that (once again) I did not start this
and that ( for about the hundredth time ) I will never allow
gratuitous nonsense directed my way to go unanswered.

Front made some unsolicited comment about how I was not taking
this site seriously. I said nothing to Front or about Front
to prompt this. He decided to take it upon himself to lump me in with someone who is obviously doing a very bad job of hiding behind
a handle. I am not doing a bad job of hiding behind a handle,
I am not even trying to hide behind a handle. It was obvious
from the very first sentence of my very first post who I was.

Earl decided once again that he had to be king of the hill and
assert his manhood when someone ( not me ) questioned his latest
conspiracy theory. What did I say to Earl to prompt this attack?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:07 - ID#20137)
Look at the price of spot gold. Look at the contracts for delivery in Feb ... for gold.

Then go back and compare them a year or so ago. Notice a change?

Mo in To
(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:09 - ID#347205)

Buying gold and eating at the Red Tomato!!! Life doesn't get any better than that! It's my fave rave eatery!! You lucky duck!


Mo in To

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:10 - ID#243180)
Mo in To & OldGoldPanner
U folks are changing my plans - - - I am now considering moving to Toronto.

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:11 - ID#273112)
EB, you've ALREADY made the bet, be a man and own up to it, lad.
"Good job on the Maples Spuds. I have said all along that it is the buy 'o the century for the physical...too bad ya' didn't wait though ( grin ) . Whats 25 bucks a coin though, eh? yuk, yuk. "

At the time of your post gold was $284, so you are BOLDLY and CONFIDENTLY saying: gold $259/oz.

In my book, either yer blow'n orange juice, or yer making a bet. Which is it? And wrap some duck- tape around your knees, dammit! The knocking sounds can be heard all way to Texas...

Mo in To
(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:14 - ID#347205)
Coin Sellers (Toronto)

Just saw your earlier post re: dealers in To who sell gold coins.
Can you share some names? I am interested in doing some shopping a
around. Thanks.

Mo in To

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:20 - ID#194311)
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.....
know wotta mean, say no more, say no more....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:26 - ID#287207)
Allen ( USA ) : As far as I know LBMA serves to supply gold to big boys around the world when they make purchases of varoius items and have to setle accoiunts. Sort of the warehouses of corn and cotton- - except much more glamorous. My interest with precious metals is to make money and knowing about the LBMA hasn't helped. Artificial islands are again interesting but I don't think they are going to put money in my pocket.
I have learned the following that are of importance here during the last 20 months or so:

1. Gold is not a store of value for any given period of anyones life.

2. Gold need not be a good thing to own during a depression. Same goes for gold stocks The idea came from the '30's when the price was supported by US Government intervention- - need not happen again.

3. Gold was not forcefully removed from citizens homes by the US Gov during the '30s.

4. Stay with the trend until it turns. From Oldman and proven correct so far.

That is about it for Kitco. Sorting through the rest of it has been a chore but so far well worth the effort.

Spud Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:44 - ID#273112)
1. Gold is not a store of value for any given period of anyones life.
Selby, there are 750 million Thai, Indonesian, Malay, Koreans and Philipinos who would violenty disagree. Those that had gold, saved their wealth during the respective government's rape ... uh ... devaluation of their worthless paper currencies.

Sorry you feel that way. Remember, what is going on is a collosal, world- wide condience- based scam that is falling apart. The Paper Ponzi can no longer find enough suckers to payoff the previous suckers. Hence the collapse we are witnessing.

Rubin, Greenspan, IMF & all the Queen's men can't hold it together. Hence the usual recourse in the offing: wars to kill off the suckers.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 14:51 - ID#197289)
Mo in To - coin shops


The coin market 710 Yonge does not have any ML's or wafers but does have Krug's at $435 cash price $460 credit card plus taxes. To buy the physicals I think the best way is to buy the wafers. They are beautiful and there are no taxes on them. Some places ( the banks ) do have bar charges etc. which raises the price - best to shop around. Thomas Cook is

well located with branches around the city 10 King St E., 9 Bloor St.W, 55 Bloor St.W and Scarborough Town Centre - more in the phone book under Foreign Exchange Service. I live in Scarborough so it is best to look in your local phone book for the coin shops. The do not always have the coins in stock.

The best place for coins and wafers is the pawnbrokers's strip along Church St. I have seen good prices on coins there. Best to phone ahead as their stock changes daily. I think it was James McTamney's 416- 366- 9646 where I saw the coins ( last fall ) . They do not always have them but they are the best prices when available. Hap

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:01 - ID#427357)
GOLD, Silver, Platinum, Palladium, Gold & Silver stocks all SOARING. The XAU is UP 13% for the week. Today its UP 2.70 to 69.42. See the Intra- Day Charts at the URL above. Just copy & paste to yout Internet Location window ( Go To ) , and click ENTER

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:01 - ID#93232)
@Someone like me......Did Someone Say Banker?
Jesus H Christ. Bill Seidman on CNBC just said..."The large banks should do very well in light of the Asian problems." Do you or do any Asians tuned in right now have a problem with this? And, "it looks like it will only cost $200 billion to fix the problem." My God, the man has a tumor ( tuber ) for a brain. Get Potato Brain out of my sight...he's trying to kill me. And now...Clinton's on ....take me now Lord.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:04 - ID#271215)
You guessed it.
For taking Jesus' name, your history. Consider yourself gone.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:08 - ID#427357)

STUDIO.R ( @Someone like me......Did Someone Say Banker? ) :

With as much respect as I can muster under the circumstances, I am obliged to say that Bill Seidman's braying about the Asian crisis vis- a- vis US banks borders on reckless and irresponsible commentary... and I am amazed to see a national media network would allow it to be aired, which gives it some semblence of credence.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:09 - ID#243180)
oldgoldpanner (what's a wafer ?)...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:09 - ID#57232)
What is important in investing in Gold? We should know as much of the rules as we can.
Selby, Earl,all: I hope you both don't get me wrong - - I'm just as interested as both of you in investing, and - - just like you I am going to follow the conventional approach investing.

However, I think the rules may be changing due to the advent of the use of derivatives by the Central Banks. I am amazed at what they have done this time without selling much gold. I do need to go back and look at that 1961- 1967 gold pool period, and the 1975- 1977 period when the CB's were dumping gold, and see if less was sold this time for the same proportionate drop in the gold price. I don't think derivatives were used in gold trading in a big way until after 1980.

My bottom line in this is that one major problem with investing in gold is not knowing what is going on - - and not knowing the rules. Much of the time we are the mushrooms - - in the dark. We are clearly near a bottom in the price of gold - - and I am eager to invest. But - - I am always going to be on the lookout for a sudden change in the rules - - and to be truthful, I am worried that we may be wrong that the LBMA trading truly does not affect the price of gold, and that the gold price is determined on the COMEX, or something like that. The LBMA trading now apparently dwarfs all other gold markets. Does the tail ( COMEX ) actually wag the dog ( LBMA ) ? I think we should always be looking for more information to survive in this game. Only then does it make sense to invest, I think. Sort of like the prey - - always one eye open to see the predator.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:11 - ID#93232)
Unforunately, I'm still here. I must be jewish, pard. I always thought I might least I know now.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:12 - ID#286234)
Maybe I am missing something. Buying on the way down. Isn't that staying with the trend?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:17 - ID#288157)
JTF--re: the paper gold 'fog'
It is necessary ( or perhaps just wise ) to remember that exchange- traded derivatives MUST be marked to a public market price every night, while bank- created derivatives can be carried at whatever valuations the
bank's own computers assign them.

Kiwi said it brillantly in eleven words ( surely a world
record ) ; his last two words a golden- nugget- summary,

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:17 - ID#31868)
Bill Clinton and his wife are the worst part of the fat that fell off an Arkansas hog.

This man and his wife are lying thru their teeth.

Trust Bill and Hillary and join in your subjugation. Nuff said.

As an American I say this freely. FU to the first family of BS lies and all that robs you of your freedom.

George, Tom, Tom and Ben would have shot the bastard.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:21 - ID#28585)
Sorry, Greg, but I will bet you a steak dinner the gold bottom was established at $278 and we are now moving into a fairly sustained uptrend.

Silver set for another explosion once the realities of low inventory are established and the media scare stories disappear.

There's just too much demand for physical developing at the retail level...even more compelling is the complete absence of the usual, frequent, dramatic CB announcements concerning gold sales.

Again, if you are shorting gold at this price level, then you must have balls of steel ( and you should avoid walking in the vicinity of large magnets! )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:30 - ID#286234)
Mobius strip. It's a double sided thing that has only one side. Do you know it? I make them out of paper, you could make them out of gold. You could inscribe money one side and commodity on the "other" side.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:32 - ID#93232)
@All.....Tolerant/studio Travel Agency annouces their Gold Excursion.....
To Thailand, Indonesia, Korea.....See this beautiful vacation mecca first hand. Don't pack a change....we'll get our clothes off their backs! Just pack a cool quarter mil in greenbacks and we guarantee you'll get twice that in gold. They're waiting on us...let's go make some new friends and get rich at the same time!!! Call early, de plane is alomost full!!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:32 - ID#373403)
DOW going down
Down 20 points in two minutes.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:37 - ID#197289)
Wafers are small gold bars. The most common is the 1oz wafer - about 1" X 2" X 1/8". Johnson Matthey is the most common refiner. The wafers have a mining pick and hammer insignia and are intricately decorated ( to prvent tampering ) . Current price at Scarborough Town Centre Thomas Cook is $444. NO taxes.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:37 - ID#286230)
SpudMaster. Read it again. "anyones" The problems in Asia haven not made any money for American gold holders.

PH in LA
(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:37 - ID#225408)
Supply and Demand for Gold

Re: your 13:36? post in which your analysis began with the simple concept of supply and demand. This ( supposedly ) simple concept merits a closer look. What you call demand ie jewelry, individual purchases etc can be at amy moment converted into supply by simply selling it since it is not actually consumed as in the normal supply/demand scenario. I have heard it said that most of the gold ever mined throughout human history is still in existence. That means we really should not be thing in traditional supply/demand terms. Gold is only worth what someone else is willing to sell it for and/or willing to pay for it. In the final analysis it becomes the ultimate psychological hedge, divorced from production, comex warehouse stocks, etc. The price of fear and uncertainty, if you will.

I too like seeing analysis that attempts to sort out the rules and mechanisms of the markets. Without a good understanding of these things, we are truly being led to slaughter.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:38 - ID#286230)
sam: Buying on the way down is playing the trend the wrong way - - unless you are trying to go broke.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:42 - ID#286234)
You mean, buy low, sell high, doesn't work anymore?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:44 - ID#286230)
Say it again Sam
Sam: It seems to be an enduring truth

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:46 - ID#224149)
OldGoldPanner- I f you go down to Church Street MAKE SURE CAR IS LOCKED- Away to find Car Thieves.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:47 - ID#286230)
oldgoldpanner: do you mean the taxes are in the price?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:49 - ID#375108)
Getting Real
Oldgoldpanner: The cost of that 1 oz. wafer is $444 CDN, right?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:50 - ID#427357)
XAU UP 2.78 - THE HIGH OF THE DAY with minutes to go.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:51 - ID#93232)
@Meanwhile in the pits on Wallet sTreat....
"What's all that you've got there Jimmy?"

"Well, Mr. Soloman, they're the rest of the margin calls that need to go out today, sir"

"Damnit, Jimmy go ahead and send them, I guess."

"Er...but sir....they don't have addresses on them."

"Oh my, Jimmy, give me a minute...I'll get back with you son."

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:52 - ID#31868)
Your's was a comical post. This is not. Let the treason of these United States be what they are. If I worked in the so- called intelligence community I would check and re- check everything.

Check my phone number, bank accounts, trivial conversations, make sure that none of the old promise watches your loved ones. We would never harm an innocent, you on the other hand are carrion for the vultures of hell to prey upon.

Your technology, is nothing more than a further of what was. Lies are lies, truth is truth, and technology cannot improve upon that. It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.

The eyes of truth are always watching you. We even listen to your phone calls and every other method at your disposal for that which is a lie and deceit.

Hi tough clown that follows me around.

Be careful what you ask for you deceitful clown, I may just plant a nose upon you which you shall not want to wear forever.

Tell fat boy in the White House there are many who do not fear, nor forget his stupidities. Tell him FU from those of us that watch, wait and pass no self serving judgement. Call Teddy koppel. This ought to be rich

Our dream is to sweep the floors and mow the gardens that all may live in America, free...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:54 - ID#364147)
good one my friend~~~~~~~

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:55 - ID#288399)
Look, Front, my husband is away slaving so we can buy more gold. I stay here, hold down the fort, and keep him informed of media misinformation. Did anyone see Clinton's "Wall St" speech this afternoon on CNBC? He even said ( I paraphrase here ) , 'and we can invest here in our countries if we're going to invest in other countries'. Get ready for the big pro- IMF propaganda blitz aimed at the middle class who, until now, has been preoccupied with who's going to go to the Superbowl. Dow weak at the close....Asian equities markets this evening, anyone?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 15:55 - ID#224149)
Farfel- You see and I see but the bet should be Veggie no dead animals here.Right Ted.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:02 - ID#371247)
Parting company and Roth
It was a great pleasure today to see the paper market and gold stocks part company. I sold $2,000 of some of my gold stocks that have a loss and invested them in a Roth IRA investing in the same stock. That way I can generate a capital loss for tax purposes and have the Roth IRA invest in the same stocks and never pay income taxes on the profits. Now all this assumes that eventually the stocks will regain all of their lost value over the coming months. Sounds like a very sound stategy however.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:03 - ID#371247)
Parting company and Roth
It was a great pleasure today to see the paper market and gold stocks part company. I sold $2,000 of some of my gold stocks that have a loss and invested them in a Roth IRA investing in the same stock. That way I can generate a capital loss for tax purposes and have the Roth IRA invest in the same stocks and never pay income taxes on the profits. Now all this assumes that eventually the stocks will regain all of their lost value over the coming months. Sounds like a very sound stategy however.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:04 - ID#254269)
Dow close at 7692 (down 93 points, 1.19%), S & P 500 down 7.27 (0.76%),

30 yr. bond at 5.739% , NYSE volume at 568 million shares.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:04 - ID#339274)
FWIW Selby XAU didn't reach the 70 level neither Febgold
held 287until than I see this as a bearmarket rally.
Xau and by proxy Abx is the most terrific stock to trade.
Whether on the long side or the short side .Right now I let
the market decide below 65 we have another downfall or above
76 we have a shot at 90.I still believe as I have mentioned
before April 20 is the bottom cycle wise.Price ? I don't know.
Happy trading : ) and sell into rallies

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:05 - ID#261272)
up $3.80
Just caught sUE hERRARA on cnbc updating precious metals and


silver discussed re:price increase and supposed market manipulation

platinum increase mentioned...

paladium increase discussed re: possible Russian deals with Japan.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:05 - ID#371247)
Ted, my friend, I saw you below and immediately began to stutter. Quite a day eh on the markets? Things are looking up quite nicely for us gold fanatics and silver lunatics.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:06 - ID#288157)
Well, India's Central Bank has plans for gold...

From Reserve Bank of India: Chapter 4a; Capital Account Convertibility: Timing @ Sequencing; Phase I, 1997- 98; Phase II, 1998- 99; Phase III, 1999- 2000

Gold At present, there are restrictions on import of gold. There are only three channels through which import of gold is allowed ( i ) through canalising agencies ( ii ) through returning NRIs and ( iii ) through special import licences.

( i ) Banks and financial institutions fulfilling well- defined criteria to be allowed to operate freely both in domestic and international markets.
( ii ) Sale of gold by banks and Fis included under ( i ) above to be freely
allowed to all residents.
( iii ) Banks to be allowed to offer gold denominated deposits and loans.
( iv ) Banks fulfilling well- defined criteria may be allowed to mobilise household gold and provide working capital gold loans to jewellery manufacturers as also traders.
( v ) Banks may be allowed to offer deposit schemes akin to GAPs ( gold accumulation plans )

Steps to be taken by Government and the RBI for developing a well regulated market in India for gold and gold derivatives including forward trading. Both residents and non residents to be allowed to operate in this market. index.html

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:08 - ID#246224)
Making money is a fine ocupation if you must;- ) I perfectly understand your stance. One of the many points of view. There are other ones as well. Such as poking around dark corners, following dirt roads and reading between the lines. Glad you can find SOME worthy insights in what must seem like alot of superfluous chatter. There's making money and there's keeping it. It all depends upon your timeline and ability to see the scene for what it is rather than what we are told that it is.

One thing you must admit, though, is that last Spring the folks in Asia had NO CLUE what was coming their way. Now they are struggling to survive each day they are living in let alone a long term perspective of making money. The investments and business environment simply evaporated under their feet. JIN is a perfect example of this with his business gone bust. The credit situation over there is just NOW coming to light. People wouldn't even extend them credit to ship products out of their respective countries.

What I'm saying is this 'you just never know what you'll need to know'. As far as gold as a way to make money or as a store of value, well we just may have our chance to repeat the "Asian Experience" in our own special way. And if so then I think you might say that 'gold was a good store of value and a great way to make money' in such a time as that. We shall see.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:09 - ID#335190)
Inflation/Deflation & Interest Rates @ Corporate USofA usually happy about Global Competition RIGHT!
January 15, 1998
U.S. manufacturers group says Fed should cut rates

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The head of the National Association of Manufacturers Thursday urged the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates to prevent an excessive slowing in the U.S. economy due to Asia's financial troubles. "The Fed ought to be easing monetary policy," Jerry Jasinowski, president of the association, told a round- table discussion on deflation.

The call for lower rates was a shift from the group's emphasis over the past two years on the need for the Fed to refrain from raising interest rates.

"It would certainly seem that, given what is happening in Asia and that we do not see any sign of inflation accelerating, that growth should be the primary focus," Jasinowski said.

The association expected the Asian crisis to subtract about a half a percentage point from U.S. gross domestic product growth, estimated to have increased by more than 3.5 percent in 1997.

Jasinowski said competition from Asian producers, who will be slashing prices, will further erode the pricing power of American manufacturers to the point where it is virtually nonexistent.

"For manufacturing, at least, no price increases will be allowed," Jasinowski said. While Jasinowski predicted falling prices in some key areas such as computers and appliances, he said a risk of broad price declines known as deflation could be avoided if the economy continues to grow.

In addition to fostering growth, Jasinowski said an overvalued dollar was another reason for the Fed to lower interest rates.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:13 - ID#254269)
Monetary Union

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:19 - ID#320441)
Yes, Tort, it was great to see paper stocks and gold stocks diverge so clearly. Hopefully this is a portent.

I will celebrate tonight with a homemade steak sub ( grinder, wedge, hero, whatever ) . What do they call those things up north?

May everyone have celebration in his own rite. Or whatever.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:22 - ID#225127)
down on the stock market
Gentlemen I have made a few cynical comments about a few of the mired of vectors pushing the equities and PM markets around. If any of it makes any sense to you, your welcome to comment otherwise just ignores them. I'm and old engineer use to expressing my self in short step 1 step 2 sentences and can't compete with the elegant and cogent word smiths that post frequently at Kitco.

I see the current moves by the IMF, world CBs, AG & RR as a huge bet or effort to maintain confidence in the US financial system that has evolved since 1982 when Regan turned from balanced budget efforts and joined the Democrats in debt creation as the method of staying in power. After 1982 it has required larger and larger financing of weak or bankrupt entities to keep this going.

On the surface, there were sum apparent successes in these stabilizing efforts but on closer examination only increased low- grade debt and risk.

If AG & RR are successful in Operation Asian Tiger Reliqufaction then confidence will restored and the stock market will go to new highs, but I don't think so. If my beliefs are correct about 70% of this advance since 1990 will be unwound.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:28 - ID#286234)
I am finding it difficult to understand gold market. So many incredibly knowledgable and brilliant Kitcoites. So many posts way over my head. I guess it will always be that way. So many different opinions. So many ideas. So much difference of opinion. Difficult concepts, huge numbers, exotic far away places, conspiracies, powerful mysterious inaccessable people. Fascinating. Hard to know what to believe. "Check email, then I'll just take quick peek at Kitco." Sure. Two hours later my head is spinning. I do think that gold has value for some people that isn't measured dollars. I am going to chop some wood now, then I better get to work. Good luck.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:29 - ID#238295)
gold market
Hep: Despite your nasty disposition you do have a better gold call record than anybody else on this thread. We should have taken you more seriously. I know that I will in the future. My congratulations sir!

Still would interested to know your forecasting methodology - - TA, fundamentals, high level CB and political contacts, etc.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:34 - ID#288157)
East --West divergence?
From Export Import Trade Flash ( online zine India focus )
Gold: Phase I - Banks and financial institutions fulfilling well- defined criteria to be allowed to operate freely both in domestic and international markets; Sale of gold by banks and FIs included under ( i ) above to be freely allowed to all residents; Banks to be allowed to offer gold denominated deposits and loans; Banks fulfilling well- defined criteria may be allowed to mobilize household gold and provide working capital gold loans to jewellery manufacturers as also traders; Banks may be allowed to offer deposit schemes akin to GAPs ( gold accumulation plans ) Phase II - Steps to be taken by Government and the RBI for developing a well regulated market in India for gold and gold derivatives including forward trading. Both residents and non residents to be allowed to operate in this market.

Participation in international commodity markets to be allowed.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:43 - ID#197289)
gold wafers
I do lock my car on Church St. With the mission and armouries around the corner it's a good idea. Even though it is a bit seedy the area has character. I lived at Bloor and St George and always liked the downtown area. Church is a little too downtown for me. Nice to visit....

Yes $444 CDN dollars.

The bullion dealers tell me that there is no tax on bullion and the wafers are considered bullion. I do not buy the physical only stocks but have checked the prices for my parents. The last time I bought wafers was before the GST and at that time there was no PST charged but the banks did add a "bar charge" of CDN$2.50 to the 1 oz wafer. The other bullion dealers did not add a bar charge. Today Thomas Cook says $444 CDN and no taxes. Perhaps the best thing would be to ask them if there are any other charges to be clear. Friedberg and Co. 181 Bay St. 416- 350- 2888 was also

priced well - I would think cheaper than T.Cook. The $444 CDN is well above spot but not high enough to inclu

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:45 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 26.91

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:51 - ID#26793)
XAU/Gold Ratio = .244

Mo in To
(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:53 - ID#347205)
Places to Buy/Places to Try...

Thanks for sharing names etc., of coin/wafer sources. I'm still
drooling over the Red Tomato, how do you know about this fine eatery
out in Scarborough. ( I'm a downtown central snob[truly in jest] )

Happy hunting!

Mo in To
( to the fine person who wants to move to To...a good thought and
best of all, our hydro is still working, taxes are a drag though! )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:55 - ID#26793)
Silver/Gold Ratio = 49.28

(Thu Jan 15 1998 16:59 - ID#201131)
Gold will rally because congress will be back in session. Whats that matter? IMF funding is a hot topic an nobody wants to increase it. Congress will love this and the markets will get scared of our lack of concern for the IMF.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:00 - ID#224149)
Ted- All is quiet in Ontario the Land of BIG CARS and full- proof Gold Wafers but the WINDS are looking to catch the East Coast ,The land of UP- TO- LONG- DOWN- TO- MUCH CRITTERS "Elusive Canada rich for all but the few".Anybody find a Mafioso with grids for the tent pole?Away to see Quebec fall from corruption .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:01 - ID#288157)
Mozel! Now you've done it--from your mouth to Hashimoto's ear!!! :- )
"Asian Version of ECU

Japan plan for currency unit
Japanese politicians yesterday floated the possibility of creating an Asian Currency Unit in the region in response to mounting financial problems.

The scheme would aim to create an Asian version of the European Currency Unit, which would act as a reference point for currencies, politicians told Japanese reporters.There was no official confirmation of the scheme and some Japanese government officials suggested it could be impractical given the diversity of the region's economies.

A number of Asian currencies have recently broken their traditional peg with the dollar, prompting speculation that a new currency system will be needed for the region."

Gillian Tett, Tokyo
FT, Wed Jan 14, 1998

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:10 - ID#93232)
Have you come across any news on Libya calling for an Opec meeting to reduce production limits...even if you haven't...tell me you have. Thank you sir.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:12 - ID#22451)
While watching CNBC this afternoon, I saw Camadus praising Indonesia. While he was spouting off I notced a resemblence to The Pink Panther. What was his name? I believe Peter Sellers played the part.

Inspector? Somebody clue me in or am I all wet?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:14 - ID#288157)
Growing Global Business Difficulties
Export insurance clamp on Korea a blow for trade
By Ian Rogers

In a further blow to Australian trade with Asia, banks have lost much of their capacity to insure against losses on trade loans for Korean exports after a crackdown by the Export Finance Insurance Corp.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:14 - ID#26793)
China absolutely, positively, you can bet on it, will NOT devalue; maybe?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:17 - ID#57232)
PHin LA: I like your post about gold supply and demand. You are absolutely right that gold supply and demand is different from other commodities in that it is mostly non- consumable. What I was referring to was the physical act of buying and selling of gold as supply and demand - - sort of like recyclable grain in grain elevators.
All I am trying to do today is get everyone thinking long enough about the possibilities with gold derivatives to that perhaps someone on Kitco will come up with something so that we can get some idea of what will happen if the LBMA derivatives trading of "paper" gold keeps growing exponentially. Exponential growth in physics does not go on forever, and it does not go on forever in economics, despite the very human tendency to look only at the status quo, and overlook the Tsunami, or the iceberg heading our way. It is the alert investor who will avoid the pitfalls and the changing rules - - and - - what if ANOTHER really has it right! No harm done in a little preventive thinking about all the "what if's"? Isn't that what the owner of a successful company has to do all the time to stay afloat, or the Captain of the Titanic?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:17 - ID#57232)
PHin LA: I like your post about gold supply and demand. You are absolutely right that gold supply and demand is different from other commodities in that it is mostly non- consumable. What I was referring to was the physical act of buying and selling of gold as supply and demand - - sort of like recyclable grain in grain elevators.
All I am trying to do today is get everyone thinking long enough about the possibilities with gold derivatives to that perhaps someone on Kitco will come up with something so that we can get some idea of what will happen if the LBMA derivatives trading of "paper" gold keeps growing exponentially. Exponential growth in physics does not go on forever, and it does not go on forever in economics, despite the very human tendency to look only at the status quo, and overlook the Tsunami, or the iceberg heading our way. It is the alert investor who will avoid the pitfalls and the changing rules - - and - - what if ANOTHER really has it right! No harm done in a little preventive thinking about all the "what if's"? Isn't that what the owner of a successful company has to do all the time to stay afloat, or the Captain of the Titanic?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:18 - ID#335190)
Mushrooms @ What is good for Corporations, is good for the people.
Can anyone explain, the conditions that the IMF has/will impose on the people of the various nations, accepting the Billions of IMF loans. Yes, I understand one condition is to destroy the workers organizations, such as Unions. But, what other conditions can the worker/citizen be expected to be forced to adhere to, under these financial conditions. Yes, those nations central banks and corporations, have inflicted the financial madness on those workers. The workers had no in- put, as to the financial expansion of their respective nations.

At what interest are these bail- out funds being charged, and what conditions are these funds expected to be returned, to the tax payers of the various nations that have provided these funds. At what point have the various worker/citizen of those nations that are providing the billions of IMF loans, been considered. What in- put have these workers/citizens been a party to the financial expansion of their respective central banks, corporations.

In addition, at what cost will the continued financial support of those various nations that are bailing out these central bankers, corporations, will show up as job losses, and homelessness, and welfare recipients, in the nations that have provided these bail- out funds.

Yes, responsibility rests at the feet of the central bankers, corporations that accepted the financial conditions of the original loans, and conditions, and yes, responsibility rests with those central bankers, corporations that extended the original loans.

No, the worker/citizen of the nations in financial madness are not responsible, No, the worker/citizen of the nations providing the billions of bail- out IMF funds are not responsible. Yet, the actions of the central bankers, corporations on both sides of the financial arrangements, are begging the worker/citizen to bail them out.

CORPORATE WELFARE EH! You have got to love/support free enterprize, especially if you are a corporate welfare bum. Good work if you can get the go- ahead from your friends in high places. And of course, if the We The People accept the fact that they are nothing more than MUSHROOMS.

Yes, I would appreciate a response. Yes, it is possible, I do not GET IT !

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:18 - ID#28585)
If Asians set about creating an Asian Common Union, then you can be certain it will be based upon a gold- backed currency. Asians are the ultimate gold- bugs.

The very announcement of such a plan would probably have immediate dire effects upon the American buck ( and corollary positive effects on gold ) .

We already have conclusive evidence Japan is selling U.S. treasury bonds. Is BOJ also actively purchasing gold at $280 or is it acting through proxies?

Again, I commend those who are shorting gold at this level...they are truly possessed of balls of steel.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:20 - ID#26793)
Dutch Finance Minister says "nein" to Italian Wooden Nickels.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:20 - ID#93232) apology to you, particularly Tolerant, for my....
Sloppy sarcasm contained in my post of 15:32. Sometimes I get carried away, as most know, and forget that you can't see my facial expressions. The point that I was trying to make is...the unjust insensitivity that our financial entities, domestic and international, shown these people in Asia has been unconscionable. Anyway, it should have been the Camdessus/Rubin Travel Agency...and not named after two "good" guys.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:23 - ID#344308)

listening to a financial advisor on the major am
station here in houston today, and heard investors
asking how to buy stocks on MARGIN! this advisor ( damned good one too )
told the callers his company advised against this
type of investment, especially in this market environment.
the callers were persistent and asked which companies
would! one caller said that the current level was a
life- time buying opportunity! damned near ran off the toll
road! had to spit several times to get that taste from
my mouth.....ds!

what a sign of the times.....these deluded souls will
probably never get the chance to buy on margin, as the
bear is fixing to really scare the living sh!t out of
every paper- tomorrow the day? ...we'll see......

realistic.......much, much better.....what happened with
the european curriecies? the grains are preparing for
their LIMIT MOVES DOWN.....gotta have a train- full of
riders before harvest....THE TSUNAMI ( asian origin ) has yet
to wash over our is time to prepare.....

how?................imnsho- - - - - -

buy grain puts
buy bond puts
buy gold calls
buy s& p puts
buy nasdaq puts
buy dollar puts
buy currency ( euro & n american ) puts
sell all paper- assets.......

my calls, my ba!!s........we'll see.........

patience and planning.....contrarism and options....birds- of- a- feather- - -

dirty dog henry cisneros is going to go jail....another klintonista
bites the dust.......

.......don't be afraid of the lawnmower cuts evenly!

ca ca is coming.......turn- on the fan so it will spread evenly....

WHO SAID IT? who said the asian contagion would not create problems
for us markets? some whiz- bang- investor- guru no doubt....

cherokee!;- - rising- and- falling- with- the- heat- of- the- day- - - - - -

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:24 - ID#254269)
Dow/Gold Ratio; Donald, I have been keeping myself a little "cheat sheet"
of your D/G ratio since mid December and I notice that today is the first time that D/G ratio has been below 27.00 since 12/29. and there is a full
70 basis point difference in the D/G since yesterday. Without putting too
fine a point on it and ( not being a technical analysis person ) could this bee a start of a trend .Also, how far back have you kept D/G ratio and could you develop anything like a 200 day ( or 50 day ) moving average ? Or am I just "playing with statistics ? "

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:25 - ID#286230)
the folks in Asia
Allen ( USA ) I'm not sure that the Asians know what has happened to them yet. On the other hand there were sufficent clues available to the general public to get a hint that something was not quiet right there. For example the worlds tallest office building is in Asia. When it was finished a few years ago- - there were no tenants and it was in the sticks. Reminded me of Canary Wharf the big land development in England that went belly up and ruined - - for a while- - one of the richest families in Canada. But that is just a minor detail that has some importance after the event. Main point is Gold still goes down and Asia is still a minor threat to US and Canada. Maybe a good hedge only after you experiece the disaster locally- - not something I look forward to.

Dave in CO
(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:26 - ID#215211)
Inspector Clouseau ( sic ) . Didn't see it but did he fall from the podium?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:26 - ID#57232)
Denial intensity and frequency
Donald: My approach is to monitor denial frequency and intensity. Generally, the more of this the more likely something is up. There is no reason to deny something if the topic never comes up. And - - a topic that comes up frequently often does so because the undlying problem has not been resolved. So - - batten down the hatches!
I wonder - - does the SS Japan have damage control set up for such an event? I doubt that we will ever know - - my guess is no. I did find someone's post about one item in Japan interesting - - and that is that some Japanese banks would rather "go under" than use the savings funds - - I have had some experience in the Oriental way of thinking, but this does seem a little puzzling.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:30 - ID#254269)
Dow Jones Average; I was cleaning out some paper files this afternoon and
came across a WSJ clipping of the DJIA graph since October 11th, 1990. It really takes off at the end of 1994 and important dates are;
1. Feb 23,1995 hits 4000

2. Nov 21,1995 hits 5000

3. Oct 14, 1996 hits 6000

4. Feb 13,1997 hits 7000

5. July 16,1997 hits 8000

It's quite a sight to go back and look at it again .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:31 - ID#28585)
ABC NIGHTLINE yesterday...the ultimate media provocation with sensational images of Asians lining up to turn in their American bucks for local currencies.

But, that was nothing. There is a topper coming around the corner...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:32 - ID#224149)
How many slices in The cake of Gold?Now the cake has many icings, How sweet the bulls and How sour the Bears.The candles can be out with one thrust of wind but the cake remains for the pleasure of all.Away to Hear "Candles in the Wind".

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:35 - ID#31868)
You never have to apologize to me or infer same.




Forgive those you despise for they are the walking dead for whom I have no forgiveness.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:47 - ID#252127)

Asian banks and producers are falling over like hong kong chickens. Expect $20+ gold days coming soon at a dealer near you, especially, when China devalues. What is she and Hong Kong to do with all their US dollars, take up the slack of short term treasury sales by Japan?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:48 - ID#227238)
Farfel: So what's the delicious news that's waiting in the wings???

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:49 - ID#288399)
Hashimoto/US bonds/Gold
If you haven't read it, you guys might enjoy reading this posting in Japan Echo about Hashimoto's comment last summer.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:53 - ID#254269)
Quote of the day award; to Cherokee_A; "don't be afraid of the lawnmower cuts evenly ". There's a gem of wisdon in there.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:54 - ID#288157)
South China Business Post, Friday Jan 16, 1998

Friday January 16 1998
Sino Land, Lai Sun battle to overcome debt worries

Sino Land and Lai Sun Development failed yesterday to repair damage caused by rumours they were about to default on debt obligations.

Sino's lenders include Bank of China, which lent about $7 billion to Sino's joint- venture residential development in Siu Sai Wan. Other banks include Bangkok Bank, Hang Seng Bank and HSBC. 19980116014954023& top= biz& template= Default.htx& maxfieldsize= 4122

Sino Land Gearing paints grim picture ( Fri Jan 16, 1998 SCBP )
Concerns are mounting over the financial position of second- line property developers, many of which are highly leveraged and supported only by a
limited recurrent income base. While Sino Land Co and Lai Sun Development Co were named among the most vulnerable to the current environment of rising interest rates and falling property prices, several other second- liners also drew attention.

Some analysts expressed concerns over the debt exposure of Hon Kwok Land Investment, Paliburg Holdings and China Overseas Land and Investment.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:54 - ID#26793)
My chart has an "M" shape. The left foot standing on Nov. 19th, the right foot on today. The peaks of the "M" are December 9th and Jan 5th. Can anyone offer a name and prospect for that pattern?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:55 - ID#20137)
Date: Thu Jan 15 1998 17:01
SDRer__A ( Mozel! Now you've done it- - from your mouth to Hashimoto's ear!!! :- ) ) ID#288157:
"Asian Version of ECU

SDRer another GREAT catch.
I tend to think that this peice of information may be the most important that we have received in some time. It will become a rallying point for all of Asia. I don't know if China will come out first with a gold back currency or not, but this could push up their plans. The talk of an Asian ECU makes a lot of sense, noting the pain, disfaction, and humilation that has occurred using the round eyes fiat currency scheme. Asians always have known that gold is the only safe and true currency.

This united currency talk will drive Asian governments to accumulate GOLD ( just like South Korea has done recently ) .

The U.S. dollar is heading for a MAJOR drive IMHO, I just wish I could time it ( BUT it feels like it is coming soon 1st quarter maybe 2nd ) .

BIG NEWS I think.

"Japanese politicians yesterday floated the possibility of creating an Asian Currency Unit in the region in response to mounting financial problems. "

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:55 - ID#39133)
Asian Spot Gold Price
CBS Market Data is showing gold up $1.60 from New York close.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:56 - ID#288399)
Hashimoto/US bonds/Gold
If you haven't read it, you guys might enjoy reading this posting in Japan Echo about Hashimoto's comment last summer.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 17:59 - ID#224149)
Someone said "Walking Dead" The Whore sits on many Waters but the Soothsayers sit on many mountains ready to fall.Away to catch falling Inebriated semi- intellectual Drunks

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:03 - ID#427357)

CURRENCY TURMOIL IN 1998 by Milhouse


The economic supremo of Taiwan's ruling party, Lui Tai- ying, has challenged conventional wisdom on China's commitment to retaining a strong currency by warning of a MAJOR DROP IN THE YUAN BY JUNE.

Lui predicts a worst- case scenario of a 40 percent fall via a gradual devaluation, or a 25 percent one whack depreciation.

The Hong Kong Oracle has given another insightful and perhaps even alarming prediction of what currency turmoil to expect in Asia during 1998. It is definitely NOT a pretty picture. Milhouse gives his considered opinion on most major currencies and GOLD.

Gold will be the major beneficiary of the increasing currency
volatility wrought by EMU and the drive to inflate which is
already underway in almost every country. The reason it will
benefit is because it is the only form of money which exists
outside the financial system. As such, it is the only truly effective hedge against inflation. Any method of hedging against inflation which exists within the financial system involves a payment risk. Also, even if your non- gold hedge is 100% effective, you simply end up with a larger quantity of paper.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet Go To window ( Location ) , then hit ENTER.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:07 - ID#20137)
Does anyone know if there is a big coin dealer in the San Francisco Bay Area? My assumption is that I would be able to get lower prices and possibly immediate pickup.

My local quoted me 304 on maples, but 315 on kangaroo's. Affordable Jewelery has both for 300 but its mail order ...

Thanks in Advance

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:07 - ID#288157)
Hong Kong Standard, Friday Jan 16, 1998
Rumours about illiquidity batter property sub- index
By SM Yau

THE property sub- index received a battering on Thursday in the wake of speculations of financial ill health which continues to
hound Sino Land.

The Hang Seng Index properties index fell 7.59 per cent to 10,274.83 from 11,118.61 on Wednesday. Its performance was slightly overshadowed by the finance sub- index which dropped by a bigger 8.79 per cent to 11,744.48
from 12,876.13 over the same period.

The commerce and industry sub- index stood at 5,073.80 from Wednesday's 5,400.12, representing a 6.04 per cent decrease.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:13 - ID#26793)
Rubin says Treasury and Fed are "very much focused on the next set of improvements".

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:14 - ID#212132)
George - Which way did you vote for having me kicked off back in July?
Therein lies your answer.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:19 - ID#57232)
If China Devalues
All: Will SEAsia be buying or selling gold if China devalues? Might want to think about that before gleefully looking for the bull market in gold. You must have positive cash flow, or more than adequate savings to buy gold. In fact, I would be buying gold before the Chines devaluation, not after - - if I were Chinese.
Now, a Japanese who knew what was going to happen would be buying gold now too - - with both hands - - if he/she could get access to nonessential cash. I wonder - - just how liquid are those postal savings accounts in Japan? If they are all company based, they might not might not be very liquid at all. And we all know from experience in the US what happens to these funds if the sponsoring company goes belly up.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:22 - ID#25588)
FundaMETAList - Sold my March Silver tonight at 5.865, netted 36 cents I have another order in to short it at 5.90, if I get filled I'll be out by tomorrow's close, taking the Kids to Disney World ...don't want to stay short over a 3 day weekend.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:26 - ID#26793)
Tietmeyer says Deflation is not a possibility for Germany

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:26 - ID#93232)
@All....from a source that would know, something you might want to know...
I realize Bernatz doesn't put any importance on this particular matter but: 1. One reason bullion coins have been in very short supply lately, is that the mints are normally closed for two weeks prior to Jan. 1 each year. This causes a blip in supply. 2. There is common thought among the mints that the bullion banks which supply the mints have unusually low gold inventories and the problem has yet to be resolved.

I was told that an order for 1000 bullion coins would be very difficult to fill and would take special arrangements...unknown delivery commitment. Physical demand is very strong ( 4X ) . Again, from an excellent source. Our physical demand is turning the tide.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:26 - ID#31868)
I kneel, kid. I have been around the planet. None have doubted my honor or my forgiveness. None. I am chased and never pursued. I will travel miles and miles so that a child might not scrape a knee knowing what I do. It does happen, but it is my fault and mine alone. No matter knowing more or better, it is my hollow fulfillment.

Let all children become more than we could dream. There is none of my loneliness in that future.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:28 - ID#252150)
Cyclist @ STAN ASIDE 13:35
Oh well! Nice try anyway.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:34 - ID#65207)
Quebec will will be back on his feet and a lot stronger
I am tired of the bigots who throw their s... on the Bart Kitner Country warm home.

Even if it is not gold releted, I feel I have to respond and say to the world that you are in Bart generous land, and fabulous peoples with golden hearts.

The world will listen and give respect when all the facts will be in the news.

Nowhere on earth does the word SOLIDARITY means as much as in French Speaking CANADA.



(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:38 - ID#26793)
Swiss Supreme Court rule Marcos money must be returned with strings attached.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:43 - ID#254269)
@ Shlomo; Very interesting 17.49 re Japan.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:45 - ID#26793)
Missed this 2 day old platinum post from Russia

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:51 - ID#93232)
@All....usagold pays homage to the Gold Bugs of Kitco....
Please visit this site for a great and humorous commentary on "our" stuff...

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:54 - ID#93232)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:56 - ID#93232)
whoa! duh!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 18:58 - ID#26669)
OldGoldPanner or other Candian: Question about selling coins in Canada?
Suppose an hypothetical person who looked more or less Canadian were to walk in offer to redeem Canadian gold coins for Canadian scrip in a bank or bullion dealer's office. Suppose they had neglected to bring their Canadian identification and talked with a suspiciously foreign accent. What would happen regarding taxes, registration, et cetera? Is there any specific local custom which makes this a more pleasant and less conspicuous action. ( I've heard for instance that in Canada one normally tips with beer but am certain that this is merely a nasty rumor. )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:02 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-tomatoes
First, Koreans turn in their gold to bail out the gov't and now they face 40% inflation over the next year - - .

Say, how long will it be before they rush to buy all that gold back?

The stampede may have already begun.

Repeat after me: Gold is the BEST hedge against inflation!

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:09 - ID#20783)
Bullion coins are available in any quantityYou have to be
a trading partner of one or more of the major houses ( that takes $'s ) and you can only
buy in very large quantities Most dealers do not have the capital
to participate in this manner. The profit margins are extremely low
and the capital output is very highTherefore unless you have a tremendous
volume you could loose your backside rapidly.
I do not sell to the public, only to dealers, I receive an average at least 10 faxes
Per day from the houses.
AND furthermore just because someone is on the net does not the are a large dealer.
Take care ... Barb

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:12 - ID#215379)
Out of weak hands into strong, I'm buying on dips

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:13 - ID#20167)
To any Canadian
Are Canadians allowed to own gold?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:19 - ID#372131)
To the best of my knowledge, the only goverments to ever prohibit the ownership
of gold were Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia. AND the good old USofA

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:20 - ID#26669)
Donald_A: That was a good post. It explains this one.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:20 - ID#288157)
Bank of Japan substantial increased its BIS subscription in Sep 96
Capital Subscription to the Bank for International Settlements

The Policy Board decided on September 6, 1996 to subscribe to an additional 8,000 shares of the Bank for International Settlements ( BIS ) , following a request by the BIS. The decision was based on the Policy Board's view that an increase in the shareholding of the Bank of Japan would further strengthen its relationship with the BIS and, as a result, contribute to enhancing international financial cooperation. The Bank made the subscription on November 1, 1996.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:21 - ID#269191)
Look at what's happening in Asia. They ran easy money with artifically
overvalued currencies. At first things were great. The easy money
produced boom conditions and the overvalued currencies produced price
stability. Now that the currencies have collapsed, prices are catching
up to what they should have been all along. What has gold done against
these currencies? Gone up, right? The Chinese have been doing the same
thing. If they devalue, gold will go up in China. The U.S. has been
doing the same thing: running easy money and allowing the overvalued
dollar to restrain prices. When the dollar starts down, at first the
inflation genie will be unleashed. The high interest rates will
strangle the economy and eventually cause deflation. Either way
gold wins.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:21 - ID#288157)
Bank of Japan increased its BIS subscription in Sep 96
Capital Subscription to the Bank for International Settlements

The Policy Board decided on September 6, 1996 to subscribe to an additional 8,000 shares of the Bank for International Settlements ( BIS ) , following a request by the BIS. The decision was based on the Policy Board's view that an increase in the shareholding of the Bank of Japan would further strengthen its relationship with the BIS and, as a result, contribute to enhancing international financial cooperation. The Bank made the subscription on November 1, 1996.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:27 - ID#248180)
TJB @ Russia citizens Gold ownership
Late in 1997 Russia law approved private ownership of Gold. Check Russia Interfax News or Feller Mining News on Info Mine. Russia Citizens can own gold and Miners are now not obliged to sell their gold to the Gov. as before.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:35 - ID#288295)

A new Silver Bug's site is in the making and your input is needed - If you missed my posting yesterday ( 1/14 @ 19:12 ) please read it, and contribute your wishes.

Thanks very much.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:38 - ID#376309)
Last summer someone posting an address you could write to in order to get info on the derivatives market in- respect to gold. i did. It was a very interesting booklet on the gold derivatives market. The author interviewed gold bullion houses around the world and came to the conclusion that the derivatives market compliments the gold bullion market and does not replace it. Big trading house that write gold calls and puts and real gold backing up there hedge. COMEX gold options traders have comex gold futures contracts backing up the calls they sell. THe derivatives market does not make the market the market is huge and whole. If a trader buys gold on the LBMA and sells it on COMEX the price should not change after the entire transaction is done. There are BIG gold bullion house around the world and they all have access to COMEX. COMEX is as much of the market as the market itself. Think about that one.

On a better note. I really like what I see. A number of good traders think that we could rally and then simply go down again but I am feeling more and more that any pull back will not make new lows, but be a retest. I tried to buy the HM jan 2000 12.5 calls yesterday and today when HM was trading at 8.5. I put a limit order in and every time I did the screen should the 'asking' price would go up. Yesterday the asking price was 1 3/8. Today while hm was at 8.5, unchanged from where it was trading today the asking price slowly climbed to 1 9/16. It really suck. I never did get filled. They closed today asking 1 3/4. What a jump in one day on an option that has 2 years to go.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:47 - ID#205140)

The pattern for your chart format could be all of us at Kitco standing side by side by side. I have been following this market for months and months. My conclusion is sell at the top of your M and buy at the bottom. Gold seems caught in a range between over the next three- six months ( Lowside Threat= $260 / Highside bounce maybe $324 ) . All in all, Gold will move up and down like any stock, It is impossible to rationalize about Gold because it always seems to defy common sense. Gold seems to me to move in 7- 10 day spurts either up or down - at the moment it's moving up - in 2- 3 days it will be moving down again.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:48 - ID#286199)
Sunshine filed an S3/A today and I don't read legaleeeze so well. Any help would be appreciated. It looks like they are selling a bunch more shares, which would further dilute a mammoth pool. Thoughts?

Here is the Edgar Link: 833376& F= S- 3/A& D= 1/15/1998

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:48 - ID#20783)
@ Studio.R
So, Sorry I didn't realize that you had a site on the net.
Just thought you were an investor observing that you could
not buy the bullion coins you wanted in the quantities you
I don't like to step on any sorry.. Barb

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:54 - ID#280222)
Burp,...excuse me!
EBbaa: Pass the pitcher of fresh- squeezed please!.. ( And GOLD and GOLD STOCKS went up too!!! What a great day!!! )

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:55 - ID#20783)
If you are truly a 1K piece player, cert. funds avail.
in open NY MKT cut you close deal.
Take care....Barb

(Thu Jan 15 1998 19:58 - ID#217338)
Gold blossoms:

It was ironic that Asian countries were seeing the need for gold as a reserve asset in times of crisis, when European central banks were disposing of their gold reserves, analysts said.

Net official central bank gold sales last year were 393 tonnes, made up of gross sales of 825 tonnes by 14 countries and gross purchases of 432 tonnes by 19 countries, according to a report by industry consultants, Gold Fields [Nasdaq:GLDFY - news] Mineral Services ( GFMS ) last week.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:00 - ID#93232)
I am just an investor. I really wasn't prepared to buy 1000 coins, I was told that this size order right now would require more delivery time than what I'm used to, and I got the impression that the price, etc. arrangements would be different than my normal orders. Normal is 100 Philharmonikers. 4.5% over spot....10- 14 days....shipped from Scotia Mocatta. L.A..

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:06 - ID#227238)
Ron/DEJ: Inflation or deflation. Either way gold wins and wins big in this case because it has 'several days' to make up for. .... More than that; gold is the best hedge against, not just inf/def but it is the best hedge against the greatest scourge of all ....... government. Especially, democratic governments. So called.

Psilver Psyched
(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:10 - ID#216217)
Today's figures anyone?

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:14 - ID#20783)
OK Would suggest sticking with Eagles because
Philharmonic's are a very thin market here
in the US. In fast market would not be as
liquid as Eagles. AND would be at a discount
to Eagles.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:15 - ID#26669)
Speed re: SSC
SSC has been toying with a reverse stock split for some time. Could this be a factor? I can't even spell legalese, much less read it.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:17 - ID#280222)
RON ( in sack- o ) : Long time no are things out there in never- never land??????? ( hope you're in OJ already! ) Is this IT or will it be down one more time for Gold?????????

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:21 - ID#217338)
Gold mutuals:
USAA gold fund 4.77$ to 5.22$ 10.5% in three days.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:25 - ID#401460)
Feb. Gold

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:30 - ID#194311)
Fill up those sweaty shorts.....
with gold until the pockets drag.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:35 - ID#398105)
Karlito....Karlito....where art thou...........................

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:35 - ID#335190)
Please MR/Mrs USofA @ We need your help, so we can have your jobs.
anuary 15, 1998
S.Korean president asks for U.S. help on debt

SEOUL, South Korea ( Reuters ) - South Korean President Kim Young- sam on Friday asked the United States for support in getting his country's short- term debt extended or rolled over on favorable terms, the presidential office said.

"It may be inevitable for us to pay high rates when we get extensions on short- term debt because our current ratings are low," a statement from the office quoted Kim as telling U.S. Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers. " ( I ask ) U.S. support for negotiations to be settled in a manner that the rates can be readjusted when our credit ratings are restored," Kim said.

Kim also requested cooperation in South Korea's efforts to secure smooth disbursement of aid loans from countries described as forming the "second line of defense" in the bailout package spearheaded by the International Monetary Fund.

The IMF has arranged a record $58.35 billion bailout program, in which the United States. and 12 other industrialized countries are participating.

Kim said a South Korean delegation is due to visit New York next week to negotiate with international financial institutions on rollovers of maturing South Korean short- term debt.

Kim reaffirmed that his country has been faithfully implementing all it promised to the IMF and said he was closely cooperating with President- elect Kim Dae- jung on major reforms, the statement said.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:40 - ID#93232)
@Barb.....thanks for the advice,,,,NOW....DOWN TO BIDNESS......
Area 51 come in...roger, over.... What about the UFO's? What's the latest? There goes what small credibility I had here. BTW, I believe.

Lurker 777
(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:44 - ID#317247)
I am not in the market for 1k coins ( Hmmmm ) . As Studio has confirmed, I pay about 4.5% over spot for 100 Philharmonikers and it was like pulling teeth to find a player at 4.5% . If I were in the market for 1000 how much could I save? Please, if you feel uncomfortable revealing this information skip this post. Thank you!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:45 - ID#401183)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:45 - ID#390249)
US Mint reports eagle coin sales rise 180% from 1996 levels 6968017- 8e1

The above article is an interesting update on gold market today. Article states that it is ironic that Asian countires were seeing the need for gold as a reserve asset in times of crisis, when european CB's were disposing of their gold reserves

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:51 - ID#401460)
Feb. Gold

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:52 - ID#20137)

Date: Thu Jan 15 1998 19:58
plaintalker ( Gold blossoms: ) ID#217338:

Could you possibly name the countries and quantities on both sides of the trade or give the url.

Thanks in advance.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:55 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Chart
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

There are several technical reasons to take the current rally seriously
1 ) Recently the FSAGX NAV almost reached it's 93 low.
2 ) The current rally Up defines the second leg of a double bottom.
( wrt 180day chart )
3 ) The above hourly chart looks very Strong.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 20:56 - ID#227238)
Haggis: Karlito is .... uh, on the road. As part of the ongoing US/IMF dog and pony show, he is giving talks on the safety and security of debt based currencies. Word has it that the veggie peddlers and fish mongers of SE Asia are not buying a word of it. ...... Some sells are just more difficult than others.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:00 - ID#401183)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:01 - ID#341214)
APH: When you say straight up you mean...

STRAIGHT UP! Tilt it sideways a bit and it looks like the sliver hour chart the last few days. Have a good time with the kids and congrats on your GREAT silver calls. I'm looking to get back in once we fade back from this rocket.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:01 - ID#93232)
@EB...she's real two-eighty-nine.....
Is this it? Mix a bit more Smirnoff in that O.J. and phone home.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:02 - ID#341214)
APH: When you say straight up you mean...

STRAIGHT UP! Tilt it sideways a bit and it looks like the silver hour chart the last few days. Have a good time with the kids and congrats on your GREAT silver calls. I'm looking to get back in once we fade back from this rocket.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:05 - ID#341214)
Well, I'm no longer a double post virgin... DAMN...

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:06 - ID#20783)
@Studio.R##&Lurker 777##& ALL
PMs. We have checked out Kitcos spreads & they seem to be very competitive.
So, we feel We have noticed a lot of lip wagging with people purportedly buying & selling
that they are so gracious to provide this forum for us ( it cost them
Plenty of money ) that we ALL SHOULDwhen it makes centstry to toss some
BIZ their way.

Lurker 777- - - - - - Goldwater AFB range said they were testing
Take care....Barb

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:08 - ID#398105)'s a funny old world out there..........

It is rather odd that the "average" man in the street does not really understand gold. Here in Kalgoorlie, "we mine gold, we sell gold, but we don't buy it".

The local Banks do not sell gold, Johnson Matthey buy gold principally from local prospectors but they don't sell it, and one place the Golden West Refinery buy and sell gold but not silver.

"Everyone" knows that "Diamonds are a Girls best friend", gold ....???

Aye, Haggis

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:11 - ID#335190)
Please Mr/MRS G8 Nations @ Central Bankers, require a few hundred billion dollars, no big deal eh!
Thursday, January 15, 1998
U.S. calls on G8 to aid in Asian turmoil

Washington Bureau Chief The Financial Post
The U.S. is urging Canada and other industrialized countries to attend a special meeting on Asia's financial crisis.

The U.S. Treasury Department said yesterday it wants a meeting within the next month to develop "new initiatives" to bring stability to the region. "The United States plans to convene a meeting of finance ministers from key countries around the world to explore implications of the current financial situation in Asia and ways to deal with these challenges," a Treasury spokeswoman said.

Such a meeting was first proposed by President Bill Clinton at the November summit of Asia- Pacific leaders in Vancouver.

Talks on the Asian crisis may be tied to those slated by finance ministers from the Group of Eight countries ( Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the U.S. ) in Britain in late February.

The U.S. administration and the International Monetary Fund are coming under increasing criticism for their handling of the crisis.

IMF managing director Michael Camdessus denied reports in yesterday's New York Times the IMF was partly responsible for the near- collapse of Indonesia's banking sector. The main problem, Camdessus said, was that Asian governments were reluctant to believe their economies were in serious trouble. "It takes time for governments to perceive the magnitude of the problem."

The U.S. Congress also plans to hold hearings about the U.S. role in the Asian bailout. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan will testify before the House of Representatives banking committee Jan. 30.

The U.S. pays about 20% of the IMF budget. So far, the fund has lent nearly US$120 billion to troubled Indonesia, Thailand and South Korea.

The U.S. part of the bailout still requires congressional approval, and a key Democrat, Representative David Bonior, has threatened to oppose any U.S.- paid bailout of Asian countries.

Camdessus also said Indonesian President Suharto will sign a new deal for economic reforms, but without some more punishing aspects. "The immediate priority is to arrest and turn around the tremendous loss of confidence, and stabilize the market through monetary discipline and a dramatic acceleration of long overdue structural reforms," he said.

The recovery plan calls for Indonesia to boost interest rates to support the rupiah but it does not deal with US$80 billion in foreign debt owed by Indonesia's private sector.

The IMF has backed away from its original demand the Suharto government bring in a 1% budget surplus by April 1, something that could cripple the already troubled economy.

Suharto has shelved 15 government- sponsored projects, although it is not clear yet whether he will axe a national car- building project being launched by one of his sons.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:12 - ID#401183)
Well said, Ms. Barb Hughes! The proposed investment club could really do some damage directing business to our sponser/sponsers! Let's corner the market!!!!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:16 - ID#20748)
Aurophile posted this article on Avid today.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:17 - ID#285309)
Gold/Silver Futures
Currently, Feb Gold up + $2.80, climbing steadily after HK opened
March Silver + 8 cents

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:18 - ID#225127)
We are next
IMF managing director Michael Camdessus denied reports in yesterday's New York Times the IMF was partly responsible for the near- collapse of Americas banking sector. The main problem,Camdessus said, was that the American government was reluctant to believe their economie is in serious
trouble. "It takes time for a governmentto perceive the magnitude of the problem."

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:20 - ID#20748)
The url again.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:22 - ID#398105)
EB..............trouble on the horizon...............

A Scotsman came rushing into a bar, and said to the Barman......

"Give me a whiskey before the trouble starts!"

Another Scotsman then came rushing in, and said to the Barman......

"Give me one of them before the trouble starts!!"

Yet another Scotsman came rushing in, and said.......

"Aye, I'll have one of them too before the trouble starts!!!"

So, the Barman stands there a watches the three Scotsman "skull" down the Dram....

"Right", says the Barman, "who's paying????"

The three Scots looked at each other, totally bewildered....... and said..

"Looks like the trouble is about to start..........!!!!"

Aye, Haggis

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:23 - ID#373403)
They do not seem to be feeling our pain tonight.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:27 - ID#57232)
Comex -- public, regulated gold trading, LBMA private OTC?
glenn: appreciate your 19:38. Your impression on the COMEX being the place where gold prices are set, but LBMA being a more shadowy, confidential place that uses COMEX prices or public gold prices is pretty much the same as mine. Now - - here's the kicker - - the LBMA is trading in one day the entire annual production of gold. Is that all gold bullion? If so, where are the CB's loaning their gold ( or other derivatives ) - - in private brokerage houses? And - - just how much derivative volume is necessary to push down the price of gold? My problem is that the CB's have so far stated that they have sold relatively little gold, but that they have loaned out 8000 tons according to Frank Veneroso.
You mention other gold brokerage houses. There is a small one in istanbul, and possibly one in South Korea. Do you have any idea how these compare in size to the LBMA? Are there others? Why are they so secretive even the gold bugs don't know about them?
I hope you dont mind my persistence today. If we are all going to get the maximum mileage of wondering just what the gold derivatives have done to the gold market on Kitco - - my reasoning is to keep the topic going for most of today, and jog other memories like yours. Do you happen to know where that flyer about the gold bullion houses went? I'd love to be an anxious Greek or Arab gold bug who inquires at the Istanbul Bullion House what are the options for selling and buying gold, but my knowledge of foreign lanquages is nill - - one of the reasons I wound up in physics instead of in study of the arts.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:28 - ID#398105)
EB................ we have always been merenaries.........

An American was hopelessly lost in the Highlands and wandered about for
nearly a week.

Finally, on the seventh day he met a kilted inhabitant.
"Thank heaven I've met someone," he cried. "I've been lost for the last

"Is there a reward out for you?" asked the Scotsman.

"No," said the American.

"Then I'm afraid you're still lost," was the reply.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:29 - ID#28585)
Basically, Sunshine is allowing various senior bondholders to convert their warrants into stock via a special stock offering:


1 ) now some of the big boys will own stock and have major incentive to do whatever is necessary to push the stock price upward ( like diverting Comex silver inventories to Cuba ( hah, hah...that's a joke ) .

2 ) Increased liquidity for Sunshine to finish Argentina's Pirquitas and put a major supply of silver into production. By the time Pirquitas is rolling, total Comex inventory of silver will probably be 5,000 ounces ( well, maybe I exaggerate a little! ) . Suffice it to say, the silver market is getting tighter with every passing month ( especially since so many recently closed gold mines will not be adding silver to the market now ) . Pirquitas will end up being one of the world's most significant sources of the silver stuff ( in fact, with stricter environmental regs in the U.S.A. and the growing clamor to close the existent American silver mines, Pirquitas might end up becoming the only significant source of silver someday! ) .


1 ) Dilutive effect on common stock...although overall dilution will be relatively inconsequential...that is, if you believe that silver is headed for a year end target price of at least 9.00- 10.00 an ounce ( projected target by a number of leading silver bulls ) . If such a price is realized, then Sunshine's augmented net worth will more than compensate for the dilution.

Ultimately, I think the pros outweigh the cons. If you're simply looking for a quick score, then I suggest you hold the stock until the end of '98...if it hasn't moved up at least one buck, then dump it!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:29 - ID#364147)
Haggis----------yer on a roll t'day

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:29 - ID#373403)
U.S. Federal Debt
01/14/1998 $5,488,705,496,927.68

Month Amount

01/13/1998 $5,486,749,552,796.75
01/12/1998 $5,481,621,078,832.40
01/09/1998 $5,480,038,744,944.38
01/08/1998 $5,479,700,204,736.38
01/07/1998 $5,484,646,071,706.36
01/06/1998 $5,486,352,648,906.21
01/05/1998 $5,481,924,290,553.50
01/02/1998 $5,476,836,236,537.09

$11.9 Billion in two weeks. Annualized is $309 Billion in new debt.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:33 - ID#364147)
Oliver(9:32) ya got the bigot thing----------
half- assed backwards......can't wait till I don't have ta read french on my damn wheaties....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:35 - ID#364147)
Confused or what--that's Oliver(18:34)
9:32 was a good- n from Haggis....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:35 - ID#364147)
Confused or what--that's Oliver(18:34)
9:32 was a good- n from Haggis....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:35 - ID#364147)
Confused or what--that's Oliver(18:34)
9:32 was a good- n from Haggis....

Lurker 700__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:38 - ID#319326)
Selby (PH in LA (ANOTHER'S Thought) )
regarding ANOTHER said on Saturday: They know that the price of gold is dropping precisely because too many people are buying it!
My understanding about this above intriging sense is:
1. CBs and Oil chiefs had a deal that oil sell for gold, disregarding $US price.
2. Oil chiefs can gain more gold from CBs if oil price is low in $US term, due to larger oil consumption worldwide.
3. But, the outsider SEAsians jump in and bought too much gold at price about $400 by their large trade surplus over years.
4. CBs are physically loaning too much gold and cannot recover it back to their already empty vaults.
5. Now, CBs cannot deliver physical gold to Oil chiefs because gold was hoard by SEAsian people.
6. CBs use paper gold and their financial tools to drive gold price down with SEAsian currency, hoping SEAsian people giving up gold for $US dollar.
7. But, that results in SEAsian financial crises, those people wont give up gold, so CBs hope those battered people donating gold willingly.

This is how CBs make the gold price dropping precisely because too many SEAsian people were buying it! They push those currency down , and push gold price down even more. But, the result is uncontrolable and those currency became doo- doo because Asian people still believe gold more than currency. Although $US is super strong.

This worldwide turmoil happened all because of gold, and who says gold is nothing.
Did they know? Gold is more powerful when it is cheaper! If gold was driven down to $200, it is possible, but the whole world will crazy about Deflation/Inflaion/Disflation and uncontrolable Tsunami.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:39 - ID#364147)
as usual
This site ain't workin too good from Cape Breton

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:42 - ID#20137)
Is this the start of something or just a correction...
Thursday January 15, 9:21 pm Eastern Time

INSIGHT - - Dollar/yen technical ground quakes

NEW YORK, Jan 15 ( Reuters ) - Dollar/yen loss of trendline support at 129.85 on Thursday threatened the current range and suggested a deeper
correction may be in the offing, technical analysts said.

A loss of 129.25 at the close would be a ``green light'' for a retest below 126, or the low hit after the Bank of Japan's yen intervention on December

``From a wave perspective, I have to consider that 134.40 is an irregular high, meaning we could go back down toward 125.80 before heading
higher,'' said Andrew Baptiste, technical strategist at J.P. Morgan Securities.

But support at 129.00/25 should hold, said analysts who noted this represents the 62- percent Fibonacci retracement from the 125.75 low on
December 17 to the 134.40 high on January 7.

Scott Siller, senior technical analyst at MCM CurrencyWatch, said dollar/yen would need a push back above 131 or 131.60 to suggest that the bull
trendline has truly resumed. If this holds over the next couple of weeks, this may make way for a fresh advance, he added.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:43 - ID#194311)
IMF is toast..maybe they'll line up with the Koreans to hand over gold.
Right- left alliance in U.S. Congress blasts IMF
WASHINGTON, Jan 15 ( Reuters ) - An unlikely alliance of
liberal and conservative lawmakers launched a fierce attack on
Thursday against the IMF, calling on the U.S. Congress to
withhold its funding despite financial turmoil in Asia.
Members of the coalition, meeting at a forum on Capitol
Hill, called for the International Monetary Fund to overhaul its
policies, and threatened to block the Clinton administration's
request to give the IMF nearly $19 billion to boost its
resources, drained by multibillion- dollar bailouts for South
Korea, Indonesia and Thailand.
Left- leaning lawmakers and experts at the forum argued that
the international lending agency's policies were hurting workers
and the environment, keeping repressive dictators in power, and
bailing out rich international bankers.

Conservatives said they were opposed to government
guarantees for overseas investments, and warned the bailouts
undermined capitalism and shackled the free market.
"This is not an alliance of two ideological wings of both
parties simply trying to protect just labor or to just oppose
foreign aid," said Peter Krug, legislative aide to Republican
Rep. Cliff Stearns of Florida.
"This is an alliance of members of Congress who are frankly
fed up with the exclusion of Congress from fundamental policy
making regarding international affairs," he said.
Critics accuse the administration of skirting Congress by
using money in a special fund to back up the IMF. The Exchange
Stabilization Fund falls under the control of Treasury Secretary
Robert Rubin, so it can be tapped without requesting permission
from Congress.
South Korea, Indonesia and Thailand have all received
billions of dollars in loans from the IMF in rescue deals backed
by promises of help from neighboring countries and from rich
industrialized nations, including the United States.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:44 - ID#398105)

There were two Scots doing a bit of prospecting for gold in the Highlands, when they came across an old mine shaft.......

"Angus, how deep do you think it is".

"Oh, it must be very, very, deep cause I cannie see the bottom", replied Jock.

Angus looked around him, searching for a rock. However, he saw a railway sleeper........

"Jock, throw that railway sleeper down the shaft and test how deep it is".

So Jock picked up the sleeper and threw it down the shaft. As he did so, they heard a rushing sound behind them, quickly turned round to see a Billy Goat charging at them. They both just dived out of the way, and the Billy Goat wnet head long down the mine shaft.

"Jesus, that was a close call", they both said.

Mean while, a local farmer appeared over the hill.

"Have you seen a Billy Goat, I'm looking for him and I can't find him".

"Yeah, we saw him. Mean looking, came charging at us" replied Jock.

"Nah, he couldn't have been mine" said the farmer. "Mine was tame and palcid, and besides I had him tied to a railway sleeper".........

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:48 - ID#28585)
Don't be too upset with the bondholders for diluting Sunshine's common stock.

Unfortunately, it was a necessary maneuver in order to preclude the bondholders from foreclosing on Sunshine years ago. If they had done so, Sunshine would be nothing but a hazy memory today.

( P.S. In a similar vein, Pegasus gold is in the same position Sunshine found itself years ago...struggling for its very survival.

If its banks accept equity in lieu of loan repayment, then Pegasus will experience a common stock dilution as well...that's the downside. However, the upside is the company will survive...and that fact alone should pop Pego's equity up at least a buck ) .

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:48 - ID#286230)
Lurker 700: You might be right but I still think the price of gold is going down because nobdy is buying it- - least of all Asians. The price of for many of them has skyrocketted- - in their life time- - what are they going to use for money.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:50 - ID#194311)
European banks on ratings watch....unthinkable looming large...get gold
"We are all in this together," Cook says of Asian crisis
WASHINGTON, Jan 15 ( AFP ) - Western lenders must tackle the Asian
financial crisis by recognizing that "we are all in this together,"
British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said here Thursday.
Cook, who will travel to Asia later this month, underscored that
the freefall in the value of currencies and share prices in Asia was
not strictly a regional problem.
"If financial international institutions and if the world
community does not get its response right, does not turn around the
situation, it has every capacity to impact the economies of all of
us," Cook said following an address at the European Institute, a
Washington- based private organisation.
"For that reason, I think we have got to approach it ... by
sitting down in recognition that we are all in this together and we
have to work together," he said.
Cook was asked to comment on criticism that the International
Monetary Fund had badly managed the crisis and that a new approach
was needed to prevent all- out collapse.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:54 - ID#398105)

Pegasus.........are they STILL on the go?!

You should employ an opera singer to give us the stock report!!!!!

Aye, Haggis

(Thu Jan 15 1998 21:58 - ID#57232)
Interesting comments!
Lurker700_A: Appreciate your comments. Isn't it interesting how we can make sense out of ANOTHER's riddles. I find his/her posts fascinating and frustrating at the same time. Again you allude to an unstable process - - dropping gold prices only encourage more buying ( or borrowing ) and emptying of the gold coffers. Can't control the gold price if the controlling interests are running out of gold. Very much like the process of creating a gold corner on a grand scale - - perhaps not initially intended, but now has a life of its own, even if there is no specific group that is cornering the gold. When the interests that are trying to keep the price of gold down run out, the game is up. The CB's suppressed the price of gold with the London Gold pool from 1961- 1967, and also from 1975- 1977. But now derivatives trading plays a major role, and ( as I recall ) according to Frank Veneroso, the CB's are now selling or loaning gold in public brokerage houses instead of more private locations such as the BIS or ( ? ) London Gold pool.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:01 - ID#22956)
Aye!! From a Black Irishman ( and scot and english ) ....will ya still talk to me?

Aye- Way!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:05 - ID#410194)
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

Gold: Fell 21,561 troy ounces to 444,806

Silver: Fell 144,624 troy ounces to 110,716,972 - Just above a 13 year low

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:07 - ID#28585)
Haggard, are still pissed at Pegasus for digging that big hole in your back yard down there in good ol' Aussiestralia?

Listen, Haggard, your guess is as good as mine. Whether or not Pego survives is being debated in a bank boardroom somewhere...even as we trade insults.

If they do survive, it will be because the banks accept some equity in lieu of a portion of the loan obligations. In doing so, they will immediately impart value to the equity, currently perceived as worthless.

The banks' final decision is something only God can discern...neither you nor I.

P.S.... How does an Aussie say thanks after a good meal?

He uses the toilet instead of his underwear.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:11 - ID#364147)
Keep em commin.....EB: Yes,he is furious @ you so buzz off....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:12 - ID#288295)

I just found this search engine for the Kitco forum over at Colin Seymour's financial pages:

Has anybody used this sith success? Is password the same as for the Kitco forum? Either not working for me or very slow to return the search tonite.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:12 - ID#432148)

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:15 - ID#364147) crusty old fart
Why so grouchy today

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:17 - ID#376309)
More Derivatives
I'm looking at my booklet now. It's from the World Gold Council ( WGC ) titled "Derivatives Markets and the Demand for Gold". I send a letter to the WGC and asked for it and they sent it to me for free. Th eaddress for this was posted on Kitco many months ago. I do not have the WGC address here but they do have a home page.

Perhaps you can send tehm an E- Mail for info on it.

When CB's loan gold they loan it only to Major Triple A rated mining companies, money center banks and gold bullion dealers. As far as I know they do not loan it to hedge funds! The hedge funds can short gold in the OTC through money center banks or bullion dealers, but if the hedge fund gets in trouble the dealer is still responsible.

The total Gold derivatives market world wide I have heard is about 1,500 tons. There are 320 comex contracts per ton of gold. so about 480,000 comex contract equivalents. Remember that is world wide, comex included.
Some of the calls are written by mining companies who will delieve the gold if the calls expire in the money.

Don't know what more to say so.....

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:23 - ID#376309)
Gold looks like it's going to $300. After that is the big question. If we get a weekly close above $305.00 the chance that the low is in will increase substantially.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:23 - ID#259400)
Single men vs married men
Why are single men thinner than married men?
The answer is simple.
A single man goes to the refrigerator,can't find anything he likes and goes to bed.
A married man goes to bed, can't find anything he likes and goes to the refrigerator.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:25 - ID#411259)
..... Gold Coin Prices .....

There has been a quite a lot of back and forth the last couple days about gold coin prices. I have seen everything from some good deals to downright robbery. My main focus is trading metals for profit, as a result I don't spend a lot of time with delivery business, and I am not here to hawk my wares in any case, but I would like to give a baseline from which to compare.

The following prices are based on today's closing spot price of 287.50.

Vienna Philharmonic Ask: 301.80 Bid: 289.60 Spread: 12.20

Eagles or Leafs Ask: 302.30 Bid: 290.10 Spread: 12.20

These are delivered prices, there are zero additional costs. Coins are sold in increments of 10 ounces. Notice that the delivered price is about 4.9% over spot - 14.30, which is lower than anything I have seen listed here, but my bid price - what my company pays you when you sell back - is more than 2.00 over spot so the spread is only 4.25% .

Like I said, I don't concentrate on delivery business, but many of my clients have taken large deliveries. I can't remember the last time anybody could match my prices. One dentist really worked Blanchard to match my price on 300 one oz Maple Leafs, when they finally did, he still bought them from me, because we by 'em back. Buying gold coins is one thing, being able to sell them back is another. The firm I work for has been buying back metal from our clients for 30 years, and virtually always at a few dollars higher than anybody else.

All this to offer some baseline for what a good deal should look like. If you are paying more than this, you are paying too much. I am not soliciting business here, as LGB may charge ( Who knows? Maybe not. He has mellowed like a finer brandy ) . I could sell 5000 oz for delivery and still not make the money I can make from one good trading account, but the stuff is cheap and I am finally comfortable enough to sell it. Gold may fall further, 250 - 260, but at 287 it would be kind of like falling out of a first floor window, its hard to get hurt.

I am me, and I am here

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:26 - ID#31868)
There is the children and then there is nothing. I like you kid. I will never give in to the bullshit in Washington.

Get Camdesuss!

Love, Devotion, Feeling, Emotion,...We The People...

Do not be afraid to be weak, do not be afraid to be strong...

There is no sacrifice for a child's smile and understanding....

I dive on the bayonet of gold so that my friends might set things proper.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:28 - ID#227238)
Ted: Grouchy? Who's grouchy? Not me. Actually, it's been a pretty good day. All in all.

Gold's moving. PGMs moving. God is in his heaven and all is right with the world. Mostly. ...... Tomorrow I may nail a close on a building I've had on the market for some time. Hopefully, it will all be settled in time to take advantage of the PM's before they top out.

No, just chalk it all up to an even disposition. ...... Unvaryingly bad.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:38 - ID#286199)
Farfel SSC
Thanks! In for a penny, in for a pound.

223: Don't change your may be 600 by July. : )

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:47 - ID#348129)
RJ: Thanks for your honest words.

Mo in To
(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:54 - ID#347205)
Odd Thoughts
To all and sundry,

Just some thoughts. Firstly, I see there are many happy campers
around the kitco campfire tonight! Congrats on being right! Even
if the sunny yellow stuff falls back, we know it will inevitably
go right back up. Now, more news from Canada, didya hear that
Dame Witte sold her shares in Echo Bay because she got caught in a
margin call! ( when will they ever learn and what the heck was she
buying I wonder? ) Anyhoo, how come nobody but nobody out there is
raving about Japan's finally fessing up to carrying approximately
800 BILLION ( yes folks, almost a trillion dollars ) in bad loans?
Sounds like more trouble to me on the stock market horizon no matter what the goldilocks and sunshine boys ( or girls ) have to say. More scary than
a bad X- Files episode. [and what will Stephen King have to write about
Scully anyway?]

Nite all.

Mo in To
thanks for listening!
ps. tort, today's were great!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 22:57 - ID#348129)
According to reliable friend, a top official from a major Gold producer has been meeting with CB officials in Europe.
Apparently there will be little or no further CB Gold sales from the countries he has met with.
No guarantees but its looking good...............

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:00 - ID#284255)
Michael "the Enforcer" Camdessus
MARKET UPDATE ( 01/15/98 ) AM- - - - -
( NEW YORK, NY 1/19/2003 ) USA- PI - - A federal grand jury this afternoon indicted former International Monetary Fund Director, Michael "the Enforcer" Camdessus, on loan sharking and racketeering charges in connection with activities in the late 1990s in Southeast Asia. Camdessus declared his innocence and vowed to defend himself against these "scurillous charges". In the indictment, the grand jury claimed that the now defunct IMF, which went bankrupt in 1998 after the U.S. Congress refused further funding, was little more than a front for questionable, possibly criminal, lending operations centered in New York and Tokyo. Loans were made to financially stressed countries in Southeast Asia struggling under the burdens of what came to be known as the Southeast Asian Currency Meltdown. That meltdown eventually spread to the United States and has been blamed for the U.S. stock market crash of 1999 in which the Dow Jones lost nearly 2/3 of its value. One witness present at at the 1998 meeting between Camdessus and Indonesian President Suharto testified that Camdessus told Suharto that he "wanted either his signature or his brains" on the IMF loan agreement that guaranteed repayment of loans to international banks. Camdessus stated vehemently that he never saw the movie, "THE GODFATHER" so he couldn't possibly have been aware of the famous Corleone dictum. The contract called for additional IMF loans of $40 billion tied to an economic reform package. The $40 billion staid in Indonesian banks long enough to prepare wires to New York and Tokyo to pay previous loans. Suharto said at the hearing that he didn't like the idea of paying off one credit card with another but added with a shrug "what could I do under the circumstances". At the time few in the international financial community believed Indonesia could adhere to the terms of the contract, and as things turned out, they couldn't. Speaking in behalf of Camdessus at the grand jury hearing were Bill "Printin" Clinton and Hillary "Somebody Stole My Files" Clinton. The former president said that he felt the former IMF director's pain as well as the pain of "all those poor people in Asia" and that's why he had to create the money that subsequently avanlanched through the American economy. Mrs. Clinton made cryptic reference to "letting them eat cake." Strangely, the two began to fox trot in front of the courthouse as soon as they emerged from the hearing and spied the television camerals covering the event. Both Clinton's later claimed that they didn't know they're dancing was being recorded.
Sorry, fellow goldmeisters, somethings I just can't resist. I could have gone on with this but the work- day calls. Hope you enjoyed a touch of humor on an otherwise bleak day in the financial markets. Believe me, I do not take the events in Asia lightly, nor do I envy these people the strictures about to be placed on their economies. Gold is responding well to the re- generating trurmoil in Asia - - up almost $2.00 at the open. Few feel that Camdessus accomplished much except in the way of public relations for the benefit of international markets. Have a good day fellow goldmeisters. We will issue a more serious rendition of today's Market Update it developments warrant it.
We don't mind having this report posted in the various chat rooms. As far as Today's report goes please post all the above for the sake of clarity and so there's no misunderstanding where we are coming from. We don't want anybody to think we take the suffering both psychological and physical in Souteast Asia lightly. It is just that a little humor now and then helps get the point across. I want to thank whoever came up with the monniker "Printin Clinton" - - its catchy.

Lurker 700__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:10 - ID#319326)
Selby, Asian is not poor if their gold is in strong hands.
Right now, their gold is in small guys hand.
Just imagine if their governments confisticate 50% of their gold into their CB, and then use 10% of their trade surplus to drive up POG to $2000, their currency will be stronger than $US. ( only use half of Taiwan's surplus can buy out US CB gold at current price. )
The problem is: For what purpose their stong hands will do that without much gold in their possesion. A Unified Asian Government might emerge to do that, but it is no good for the world G7.

Barb Hughes
(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:10 - ID#20783)
Seems like you are working tween the spreads I.E. as in
broker ( which we deem is one who likes to make on both ends,
who might not have physical inventory ) ...

Real Player tight spreads currently about
SPOT +2.75% at 4.25%
Less on Quantity on the sell side.

We'll do the math for you....That's translates to
$295.40 Bid $299.75 Ask
If my BOMAR BRAIN is still working properly that's
a $4.35 spread NOT A 4.25% SPREAD!!!!

These spreads are current during open trading hours!!!
( NY not E.F.P. )
These spreads may vary slightly depending on current physical
positions from product to product.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:10 - ID#348129)
@Some info for ECHO BAY followers
The stock will be removed from the S& P 500, and S& P has ECO on credit watch with negative implications.
The stock has gone down the past few days while other Golds are going up ( a pretty bad sign ) .
I sold my position today.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:20 - ID#57232)
US Markets tommorrow - up wave?
All: SEAsia markets are up nicely - - Japan approaching 16,000 according to Yahoo. Makes one think the upwave will wash over into Europe and to the USA.
But - - The US markets looked weak today, so I would have expected a down tomorrow. And - - why are the eurodollars down again and gold up? What inflationary news passed our way - Japan selling dollars again?
My guess would therefor be a rise in the US markets in the AM, and a fall by afternoon. But this info is as good as what you paid for it, IMHO.
Everyone notice how the DOW trend is bearish in the last month or so? No January effect yet!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:25 - ID#341293)
Hep .....

Now you want respect for all your past calls. After what you tried to do to the assembled multitudes on this and other sites and now you want respect .... while at the same time freely admitting that you're here against Bart's wishes. Sorry , but in my book ..... Hep = respect = Oxymoron.


(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:25 - ID#429395)
Prediction you wanted reposted probably Inpathique's from last year
Namely - Bottom Dec 8, peak Dec 24, bottom Jan 7, peak Jan 15, bottom mid Feb, rise and level off mid March to First week of April at TSE's precious metals index value of 6900 to 7200 ( closed at 6066.86 today ) , then continue rising to a sharp peak end of June then comes a MAJOR crash
This is better seen on the sample INPATHIQUE pattern of the TSE's precious metal's index at updated daily and shows expected path of precious metals index. Gold normally relates

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:26 - ID#57232)
US Markets tommorrow - up wave in AM, down in PM?
Sharefin,all : SEAsia markets are up nicely - - Japan approaching 16,000 according to Yahoo. Makes one think the upwave will wash over into Europe and to the USA.

But - - The US markets looked weak today, so I would have expected a down tomorrow. And - - why are the eurodollars down again and gold up? What inflationary news passed our way - Japan selling dollars again?

My guess would therefore be a rise in the US markets in the AM, and a fall by afternoon. But this info is as good as what you paid for it, IMHO.

Everyone notice how the DOW trend is bearish in the last month or so? No January effect yet!

Any comments?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:27 - ID#20137)

Date: Thu Jan 15 1998 22:54
Mo in To ( Odd Thoughts ) ID#347205:

"Mr. Eacott said Ms. Witte was forced to sell half of her shares in Royal Oak because of a margin call."

Not Echo Bay.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:29 - ID#285309)
Latest Money Supply Data
The US Money Supply Data M3 ( widest measure ) indicates accelerating rate of increase. Currently, the rate, based on 13 wk average, is right at 10% .

This rate implies a real inflation rate of appr. 7.5% ( M3 expansion rate - rate of tangible goods creation GDP of 2.5% ) .



H.6 ( 508 )
Table 1 These data are scheduled for release each Thursday at 4:30 p.m.
January 15, 1998
Billions of dollars
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Date M33
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Seasonally adjusted
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

1997- Jan. 4943.7
Feb. 4984.3
Mar. 5019.0
Apr. 5058.4
May 5063.0
June 5080.9
July 5121.2
Aug. 5168.2
Sep. 5204.9
Oct. 5237.1
Nov. 5285.1
Dec. p 5334.2

John Disney__A
(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:33 - ID#24140)
Echo Bay
For all speadsheet sportfans

If you review the info in your spreadsheet, you will see

that Echo Bay is the worst on the list with little hope for

improvement. Non spread sheet holders are apparently just

beginning to learn this the hard way.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:33 - ID#57232)
Gold derivatives
glenn: Thank you for 22:17, and your patience - - It is clear you know more about the operations of the gold derivatives market than I do!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:37 - ID#390249)
The daily PM update which I can't post includes the statement that it is
Ironic that Asian countries were seeing the need for gold as a reserve asset in times of crisis, when european CB's were disposing of their gold reserves. it also included the statement that US mint sales of eagles were up 180% from 1996 levels.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:44 - ID#31868)
Love, devotion, would you give the baby paper or metal. I prefer the absolute. For me it is to give the un- knowing metal.. My dreams are made of air and all that goes with it.

Should your child walk up to me I will place metal in his/her hand. I shall feed them well, house and blanket them, but I shall put metal in their hand. And as far as my eyes can watch and see, and further than that, as far as my word of honor travels so shall my respect for your thoughts travel with yours, little feet that they may be.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:49 - ID#285309)
JTF - Re.: US markets in the near term.

I believe that the US paper market is in a short term rally ( to around 8,000- 8,100 ) . The Asian markets have come down too fast and too much at this point and therefore the upswing there. Also, many lemmings are throwing a lot of $$$ into the US market as is customary in the first 4- 6 wks each year. After that, watch out!!

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:50 - ID#298259)
Neophyte... hear it is

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:52 - ID#287207)
Lurker700: You might be right that a United Asian government could have a major effect on things. I expect to be long gone before that happens. I think gold will go to the 1000- - - 2000 + range when the small US guys think it is a good idea to buy it. Since they are the strongest economy in the world- at the moment- and since it looks like gold only skyrockets in currencies that have fallen - - as opposed to those that might be in jeopardy- - - I think we will all be buyers before the US.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:52 - ID#224149)
Last of the Bears - As LGB becomes the new fearless leader of Gold only a few real bears remain including myself and the weak Governments .Give me cash or let the World fall to the NEW ORDER of Gold based Suicide .Spoliate me for I no not what I do for the sake of GREED.Arrest me for the paper that fly's around the world. Away to the printing crams of human fallibility and the rulers of dimes.

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:52 - ID#373403)
You guys are paying a $12 spread on coins!?
I buy .9999 casting grain for $3 over spot, $2 over if I am getting back the proceeds of a refining. When I want to cash out, I send to the refiner who takes between 1- 2% depending on the scrap. Fine gold is 1% . Then there is a $75 refining charge.

Way less than your coin spread if you are dealing in over 10 oz. positions.

Strad Master
(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:54 - ID#250297)
North Korea Weighs In...
Here's something interesting/amusing: Taken from today's web page of the North Koren Central News agency of the "Democratic" People's Republic of Korea -

S. Korea to be faced with "national dishonor crisis"

Pyongyang, January 15 ( KCNA ) - - The Emergency Economic Measure Committee of South Korea said that there is possibility for South Korea to be faced
with national dishonor crisis" in the first quarter of this year, according to a radio report from Seoul. In a report on the "view of foreign investors regarding the economic crisis of South Korea" the committee said that the authorities announced they should return short- term foreign debts of 21.6 billion dollars in the first quarter of this year, but it is estimated at 40 billion dollars. It stressed that in case the authorities' plan to introduce foreign loans on a large scale to pay foreign debts fails, south korea will be faced with more serious "national financial crisis" than the catastrophic crisis of foreign exchange in mid- December last year. The authorities totally opened financial market but the funds invested by foreigners are not coming in and South Korea's downgrading credit abroad makes it difficult for the authorities to borrow short- term 35 billion dollars on short terms, it said.

Of course, it is North Korean propaganda so they probably have a bit of an agenda ( :- ) ) . There is some really funny stuff up there if anyone is interested:

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:56 - ID#411259)
..... ? .....


The numbers I quoted are for the listed gold coins only, and include all delivery costs. My trading accounts trade strictly bullion with spreads as low as 3.3% for gold bullion. I'm not sure what kind of mathematical alchemy you are using in the numbers you posted, but my calculator says that spot 287.50 x .0425 = 12.21 or conversely, 12.21 / 287.5 = .0424. That's awful close to 12.20 and 4.25% wouldn't you say?

(Thu Jan 15 1998 23:56 - ID#373403)
Asia up, DOW down, gold up?
Is Asia maybe dumping her $denominated assets? Maybe the fed is cranking out the $ to buy back bonds and then reissuing them to fund the IMF. This figures in with M3 and the debt both rising dramatically.