sharefin: Windy and wet? Hope you're high and dry - - everyone ok? I would guess by now the worst is over.

In your post of 22:29 you stated that
third world countries would not be allowed
to blackmail industrialized world.

I raised the same point 3 or 4 weeks ago
talking about nukes, oil and gold relationship.
It drew me to the conclusion that ANOTHER's
story is not true, and it just cannot be
true for the reason of "nuke" factor.

You came to the same conclusion.
Nice to know that logic can still prevail...

So, in other words, currencies will be forced to be backed by gold if it wishes to purchase oil?

And what of nations that do not have enough gold to pay? Would they then be denied oil? If so, do you not think that war would ensue?

If this scenario hurts the west too much because its economic partners could not produce, do you not think the US would step in in some way?

Any interuption in oil to the west and its economic allies would not be tolerated.
Just watch at what lengths the US will go to save the Asian countries. What makes you think that the ME has any capability to simply take it away?

Anaconda- What a movie .....Looks like the snake on my Metastock Gold file using rainbow.mtw All the White People die and the hero is ice cube. Nothing to say about the many rap groups that still look to eat whites for supper.Imagine Haggis on a takeout order or ANOTHER with fresh Bolshevik ideas pan fried in 69 wine .yummmmmmmy It's only a rap thing.

Ziva: I am still of the opinion that gold has NOT bottomed yet. I am NOT of the opinion that it will fall to $250 retroactively: ) I do think the price will hit the 250 range soon, however.

Here is the URL for the article that I mentioned earlier. The "Oracle", whoever that may be, obviously put a lot of thought and work into this article, and I would recommend it to all Kitcoites, if you haven't read it yet. I hope that Another will respond as to whether the scenario sketched out here would fulfill the requirements for a stable currency.

http://www.gold- eagle.com/gold_digest/oracle714.html

I would post the table in this article for all to read, but tables posted on Kitco never survive in the original columnar form.

Sorry if this gets a dash in it.

You seem one that displays intense thoughts in varying subjects. I pose a question to you.

Why is it that scientists, would assume that a higher form of inteligence would be that of a different planet and not of are own. Has not earth gone through cycles which could easily erase or hide any presence that existed thousands of years ago. Have not the plates shifted, where the poles were at one time a tropical climate. Would it be so far fetched that the supposed landing strips in Egypt and the paintings on the inner walls of the pyramids be that of race that was from this planet.

Didn't Babilon have technical advances way beyond the era?

Wouldn't be easy to conceal an civilation in the depths of an ocean?


I know this is way off the gold platform just thought it would give something to ponder.

Dear Selby,

I will be brief.

1. I am sorry for using the definition of
"complete idiot".

2. Please, do not apply it to yourself, you
do not deserve it.

3.I respect your knowledge, but please respect
my knowledge. Miro and I lived under communists,
learn a lot of history lessons and we know very
well that defenseless people is easy pray.

4. For this reason we have a very specific
instinct of freedom and self- respect, which
many good people both in Canada and the U.S.
can not understand, because they never faced
those problems, They are lucky and slightly
spoiled too.

5. People should be armed and have gold in order
to be really free. In this case THEIR FREEDOMS
ARE RESPECTED by the power.

6. I agree that Canada and a couple of other
countries may be a lucky exceptions of this rule,
so you can be proud of it. But fundamentals
never change...

Take care.

Interesting that last post of your's. I was thinking ( it does happen once in a while ) that it might not be too far fetched to conceive the possibility that we are the result of others who left a different world long ago.

There is so much on this planet that we have no clue about. Perhaps the DNA is a code for progression that is slowly unlocking itself on schedule as we evole to understand what is locked within.

And I agree whole heartedly, JTF gives much thought to many items of ponder and always represents that which for me is what we might become if we just put the right foot forward.

tolerant1: Noticed your comments to ANOTHER. I understand what you are alluding to - - - but I am more concerned that you are forgetting your namesake.

Continuing along your line of thought, I really think Sarkar has the essence of what is happening better than any historian I have read - - and Sarkar was a "humanist" I believe, not an historian.

According to Sarkar's model there are 4 basic human phases in one big cycle - -

Warrior phase - - - )

Intellectual/builder phase- - - )

wealth acquisitor phase- - - )

worker phase ( general public ) - - - ) back to warrior phase

We are in the acquisitor phase because the average person is losing wealth due to the slow insidious growth of power/wealth by those who govern us or manipulate us. In the US, real standards of living are dropping, and we must work harder to maintain what we have. However, we as Americans are still far better off than the average African, Asian or Middle Eastern. A few countries such as Switzerland have a higher standard of living.

Eventually the acquisitors ( you are alluding to ) will have almost all the wealth, and the public will revolt, as it always has - - many times throughout history. High profile aquisitors will find themselves very unpopular or worse if they can be found.

During this period of turmoil, when real power is briefly is back in the hands of the public, the warrior phase will begin. This phase is a critical point in history as power is concentrated in the hands of a few - - will these leaders be wise and just, or will we have an "antichrist"? In the last cycle, the turmoil in Germany was followed by Hitler, and the turmoil in Russia followed by Communism. Other countries such as ours fared much better.

Well stated and respectfully understood. Gulp. a toast of tequila to you.

You're all right.

ANOTHER - get a life.

away



Hmmm. As always your posts are caring. I fully agree with your postulation that "hitler" types are bred during certain times. If we have learned nothing then it will be again that a madman will endear himself to the populace.

I think that there is an alternative, there are many now who wish for peace and the time to enjoy life, their loved ones and the sanctity which arrives in the mailbox of the previously stated.

Technology affords us the ability for the global populace to embrace a true sense of humanity.

Give people a choice to live simply and kindly and they will not succumb to the rantings of a maniac.

I didn't realize that Yanks were soooooooo sensitive. This must be surely be something new.

Now, I know that John Wayne and Michael Jackson are both American, but correct me if I'm wrong - they are from different eras, the latter being the modern icon.........says alot !!! Is he a reflection of modern day America !

1. Shell ( Royal Dutch ) Oil group will invest
billions of USD in "Bio mass project".

2. Nasa launches rocket to probe lunar surface for
H20 so that future lunar mission could use H20 as
fuel.

3.GM acknowledges at Auto show that Japanese
automakers beat them to market with hybrid fuel
eff. electric/fossil fuel autos...GM will be
redoubling efforts to launch hybrid vehicles

THE future is now...without clean fuel sources
soon we will all choke to death on the fosil fuels
that will be pumped into the air as all nations of
the world industrialize and enjoy the 21st century
by consuming more and more energy each year.

I know of companies that are looking forward to
selling an auto to every household in eastern
europe as well as China...can you imagine the
energy consumption and pollution output??????

T1 @00:26: If we are the offspring of some forgotten visitor to this humble globe; judged by our actions, they used this place for an asylum. Or better yet, an exercise in cosmic humor. The interstellar equivalent of watching an ant farm.

And this comes from a man who represents a race of organ stuffers. grin and a shot of tequila to ya!

Pat Riley........is feeling low.....Chick put it in the fridge...

The butter is getting hard, the eggs are getting cold, the jello is jiggling........ohmy....... ( ugh ) .......

WayAway...

tinsletownrocks...

go gold....10,000 gold ( sure ) ....and pigs will fly outta my bu.......

Do you remember the comic book The Fantastic Four? There was a fabulous character called the Watcher. He was the one who saved the Earth from Galactacus aided by the Silver Surfer.

I understand your thought, I guess I was just thinking that nothing is impossible or improbable.

Without question we are an experiment in progress/regress.

oris: I understand that some of us have experienced different lives. My question was why is one culture so different from another when it comes to law and order- - for want of a better term. Canada and the US make for a good comparison. About the same age. From the same legal traditions. About the same level of prosperity. Same level of technology. Different levels of violence. One side says more guns are needed to protect ourselves. Other side says no guns and they won't get used. My question is how did we get that way from about the same beginning. As usual this results in accusations of liberalism and socialism ( I vote conservative ) and what do you want a gun or a law faced with an armed intruder. Anyway time for ANOTHER. I finally recall where I have seen and heard him- - the Alien on THE FINAL CONFLICT- - came to earth to enlighten us and all the while trying to trick us and doing so by speaking in unfathomable abstractions.

Time is running out for Goldfields Leudoorm and Libanon mines and 15M
miners there are living on a knife edge, and 14 of SA Gold mines producing some 200 tons/year with 150,000 miners, were not profitable
despite hedging,SA Energy Minister P. Maduna said today.

Many mines face closure GFSA Ex. R. Robinson was quoted as saying.
with results ominus for the March quater which will better reflect the
recent decline of Gold in US$. Some mines are running bank overdrafts.

Gold Analyst A. Auchterlovie said, all of SA Gold mines are going to be
Knocked with Avgold in particular.

The full article is at

www.bday.co.za

Your last post brings about many worth while thoughts and questions. I fully understand both sides of the weapons debate. As of yet, I must say that I am firmly in the camp which allows individuals to defend themselves.

My temper flares on this subject and I should know better. But I do respect much of what you say.

JTF
We have fortunately missed the cyclone.
Or did it miss us?

Not to wet and little wind.
It has been downgraded and is slowly moving down the coast.
Fortunately far enough out to sea to do little damage.
It currently has winds of 55kts at the centre still.
But looks to be turning into a tropical low.

Still a danger to towns down south but weakening.

I believe it was Amory Lovins that said "digging oil out of the ground and burning it for energy makes as much sense as cutting butter with a chainsaw."

My complaint about Kitco

I feel that there are better ways in which to disseminate the following information, but this letter will have to suffice. I want to share this with you because evidence exists to suggest that negativism is not confined to any specific era, culture, or country. Until recently, Kitco's demands have gone unnoticed and unanalyzed. It is quite true, of course, that he keeps coming up with new ways to dismantle the family unit. But I consider his effusions antithetical to my principles as a person concerned for the good of all. Judging by the generally arrogant nature of his lackeys, I can see that I wouldn't put it past him to substitute rumor and gossip for bona fide evidence. It is common knowledge that the majority of stolid numskulls probably agree that we can't stand idly by and let Kitco crush the will of all individuals who have expressed political and intellectual opposition to Kitco's viewpoints. The world today seems to be going crazy. That proves that the only way for him to redeem himself is to stop being so infernal. The most closed- minded manifestation of pathological sentiment among whiney cads has been the way they create widespread psychological suffering. This implies that I am confident that perfidious boeotians will come to their own conclusions about all of these matters. Please remember that we must use our minds and spirits to halt his efforts to conjure up dirt against his fellow human beings. As a dynamic historical current, obstructionism has taken many different forms and has evolved dramatically in some ways. The reason is clear. The cliches of Kitco's shenanigans are well- known to us all. Let me leave you with one last thought: Kitco uses his influence to inflict untold misery, suffering, and distress.

Maybe coincidence you be the judge. CNN a little while ago ran a 6 minute piece on the "People against gangsters" vigilante groups in SA that are taking the law into their own hands and meating out frontier
justice to anyone supected of being a criminal. They begin their vigil
by first chanting in church, and then scatter out in groups to find and
actually punish ( horrible pictures ) said gangsters, claiming police are
incompetent. The report went on to say that 3% of SA population is already in overcrowded jails, jailguards are on strike etc... There can be little doubt that crime in Joburg is out of control, the ethnic mix there is
rather scary with moslems, coloured, hindus, black have and have nots
etc...This piece was broadcasted twice today.

I have a feeling that ANOTHER may be Japanese....

The Japanese are indeed invested heavily in American: America has a gaping deficit, Japan a towering surplus.

"Nixon terminated the convertibility between dollars and gold and
devaluated the dollar, America has sought to replace the gold standard
with a dollar standard by bringing to an end the use of gold as a
currency. The illusion that the dollar has become a good international
standard has taken fairly firm hold in the 1990s, but it will be
shattered if moves get underway to sell U.S. Treasuries and buy gold for
foreign- currency reserves. Such behavior would present a challenge to
America's international monetary strategy".

Gold may form a buffer between the Yen and the Dollar. it is in both interests for this to be so. Should a market crash occur, at the Japanese end it would be absobed, at the American end it would fragment.

The "current" Dollar cannot pay for oil alone. In his discussion on an "International Buffer Stock Scheme For Oil" G Soros ( Alchemy of Finance, 1987, page 333 ) outlined a grand design that combines an oil stabilization scheme with a solution to the international debt problem. Soros points out ( page 359 ) that "we desparately need an international currency system that is NOT based on the dollar. Yet the Yen is not yet ready to serve as the international reserve currency......... and the value of the international currency would be tied to GOLD........"

The balance between ANOTHER and the American readership is.......GOLD.

You are vicious! By the way, I did enjoy my coffee and Dram this morn and my only feeling is still reeling.

Hope all is well where you are.

I'VE "been away", so to speak, reading this extensive conspiritorial post & would like to hear your brief review of same. How much of this tale do you hold is gospel & how much is to be taken with salt ?

Fly fishing was invented in Scotland !

I didn't know flys could swim.

Selby: While our national origins and ethnic makeup are similar, the US and Canada evolved along very different social and cultural lines. The most prominent in my mind is the issue of slavery. It set a course for the US that continues to haunt us today. The civil war set an intramural tone for violence. The reconstruction period only exacerbated the division between North and South with its rapacious and inhumane treatment of the South. Vindiciveness was the order of the day. Much as the Treaty of Versailles after WWI.

The winning of the west. So called. All done in the period following the civil war. It was done quickly and without regard to the principles in our constitution. IMO, that period between 1860 and 1900 defined the aggresive culture of the US. ...... 'n it ain't that long ago.

when the Dollar is replaced by some other volatile instrument, it will be oil, with gold remaining as the standard?

refer: I took your question and raised it several levels. I am looking at a notebook that I have made that focuses on natural cycles throughout history. The cover page is a copy of the "Vostok temperature Change" over the last 160,000 years. This is based on those interesting estimates of the temperature of the world taken from ice cores - - I think mostly at the south pole.

Here is the punch line. During a period from 12,000 to 10,000 BC the earth went through a warming period, and the oceans rose hundreds of meters - - as the last ice age ended. Before that time, the Vostok temperature records indicate that the earth's temperature was stable for over 100,000 years.

Now, we know that humans have been on this earth for more than 100,000 years, so what were our ancestors doing all this time? Couldn't an advanced civilization have flourished? If this civilization was near water, as it likely would have been, and the oceans rose hundreds of meters, it would have been inundated, and most of the artifacts might well be well hidden under the oceans. This does not even require tectonic plate movements, which might well have also occurred, but that is another story.

The Vostok temperature data is especially intereting because Plato descriebes in the Timaeus a conversation that Solon had with Egyptian priests. Apparently Solon was told that, 9,000 years before he was born, a powerful kingdom called Atlantis existed beyond the "Pilars of Hercules". This civilization had overrun the Mediterranian at that time, probably well aware of its impending doom by flood.

I can't give you more details about this, but it suffices to say that Greek and Egyptian ancient histories both allude to an event about 12,000 years ago where the kingdom of Atlantis was inundated, well before the Vostok temperature record was available. I think it is more than coincidence that these times correlate as well as they do. So if there are artifacts of an advanced ancestral civilization that predates ours, we probably need to look under the waves.

Another highly suspicious fact is that the original pyramids of Central America seem to have been built by the same architects that the original pyramids, in particular the Great Pyramid of Gizeh. The proportions of the golden section were used in these original structures, which can be traced back to the Fibonacci series, which we know know offers a key to the fractal ( or chaotic ) nature of life. Also, as I think you alluded, the Sphinx has a weather pattern that suggests water erosion, a physical impossibility in the current desert climate. Some experts think that the Sphinx and the pyramid of Gizeh were not built around 3,000 bc, but actually many thousands of years earlier.

And there is one remaining point: Just how advanced could a human civilization be if it had 100,000 years to evolve? They could very well have been able to leave in spaceships, or to tunnel under the earth before the flood.

I think undersea Archeological explorations are going find some interesting artifacts very soon. There are allusions already to a few discoveries, but I seem to have misplaced the references. Hope this post is of interest, even if it is not about ANOTHER or gold!

Selby: While our national origins and ethnic makeup are similar, the US and Canada evolved along very different social and cultural lines. The most prominent in my mind is the issue of slavery. It set a course for the US that continues to haunt us today. The civil war set a tone for intramural violence. The reconstruction period only exacerbated matters with the North's rapacious and inhumane treatment of the South. Vindictiveness was the order of the day. Much as the Treaty of Versailles after WWI. With a similar result.

The winning of the west. So called. All done in the period following the civil war. It was done quickly and without regard to the principles in our constitution. IMO, that period between 1860 and 1900 defined the aggresive culture of the US. ...... 'n it ain't that long ago.

I think Dr Coleman has been a very brave boy. What is fact and what is fiction ?

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/ron/alien/main_archive/a_upto_i/committe.300.txt

I am Scottish, and the Masonic Order is very strong there.

There is a certain Island in a Loch in the Highlands, where all the Grand Masters of the Masonic Order are buried. Need I say any more?!

Rule Britannia ........

Hech,I thought it was invented in TEXAS

It is not out of the realm of possibility that the "aliens" are us returning.

UFO - Unusually Fraternal Object.

Sharefin- Try some Studio_R stuff great for all the brainwashing dudes- - - Jimi Hendrix- - - skip- - - skip- - - - - skip See It's easy.

Selby: ( sorry for the double ) I meant to add that these are some of the things that Canada has never experienced. They are not intended to serve an excuse for uncivilized behavior but I think they go a long way toward explaining the difference in social outlook.

sharefin: I will never forget our family's near head- on collision with Hurricane Hugo, so I am relieved.

Your post about "Kitco" is great! Who is "Kitco" anyway - - never met him/it/her!

Some one really doesn't like us - - it seems! Is it the negativism, or is it because the topics are too close to the truth? I have noticed over the years that the most bitter critics of others are often that way because their lives or their belief systems are being threatened.

For Earl

Your point on violence nature of America deriving from

period of Civil war through opening of West is true - Suggest

you read Cormac McCarthy ( ?? ) - Blood Meridian - Outstanding

book with same theme - would also make great movie.

Your post........

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 01:00
sharefin ( http://www- csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint )
My complaint about Kitco

Sharefin @01:00: What in 'e hell was that all about?? Did you find it in the street somewhere? If you produced it personally; why? .... @confused.

Violence in America, hmmmm. Let us go to India, China, Africa, and many other places. Violence goes hand in hand with all those that fell out of the trees and walk upright.

To pretend that America is violent while the rest of the world claims some sort of civility is a cruel abandonment of any knowledge of history.

We are all monkees in progress, stop wiping your sleeves on some sense of pretentious, make believe nobility. None walk upon a pristine path, none.

I hope you can swim !

There is actually a place in Africa, Lake Victoria, where "flys" can swim. I understand it is a seasonally favorite food with the local population - they make little cakes............

THOUGHT THAT PRINCE CHARLES COULD RUN ANY SERIOUS OPERATION OR ORGANIZATION !
I suppose if Bill can be Pres of US & AL Gore can be considered a serious contender for feurer of the free world any thing is possible !
AYE !
Y.O.S.
Tar Baby

I use the following sig. file for my dealings in my profession:

"Information's pretty thin stuff unless mixed with experience"

I think it's very applicable to issues discussed on Kitco, especially investing in Gold.
We hear advice, listen to predictions, see charts and tech. analyses, however, only after you go through the fire, loose money in gold market, you learn how to digest and judge what you read. Ive got a long way to go ;- )

Same is true for other issues discussed tonight.

As soon as I posted it I knew I would pay. I knew it. Bet they are tasty though.

John Disney: Thanks. Though well armed, I dislike violence very much and have given a lot of thought to the subject over the years. That is; why we are able to accept violence as natural part of American life. Sad stuff. ...... Clear the back bedroom John, I'll be on the next flight to SA. : )

sharefin: What is the world coming to? Now compliants can be automated. Junk ( e? ) mail can be elevated to a higher level of sophistication. How much longer before you and I are replaced by auto- responding computers who can while away the hours on the web while we are free to do something else altogether? We can look in from time to time to see how our ( ? ) conversations are going.

Lewis Carroll - - where are you? Or do we need HAL 9000 instead?

FIGURE HEADS are exactly that.............

T1: Of course it's the very nature of the beast. But you would be hard pressed to find another culture where violence is considered almost a spectator sport. If it becomes the dominant theme in popular entertainment, one must conclude that a problem exists.

Haggis: Lobsters are distant relatives to flies as they are arachnids, and they grow very large in the Oceans. I remember seeing one as a child that weighed nearly 50 pounds. Do you need to warn tolerant1 that fly casting in certain parts of Africa may be hazardous to your health? I wonder what a 50 pound swimming fly would look like and whether it would consider us as food.

Forgive me my bewilderment but I am somewhat baffled by the fixation upon the statements supplied by "ANOTHER." For one thing, he does not seem to be very adept in syllogistic reasoning. That is to say that he does not proceed A to B to C and often provides non- linear reasoning. Moreover, he offers one fact after another that he considers axiomatic without any substantiation of the facts. Furthermore, he proffers all variety of assertions that are at best abstruse and at worst complete off- the- wall.

This forum's inclination to treat ANOTHER as though he were YAWEH revealing himself at Mt. Sinai is very amusing. I guess I should change my name from farfel to THE UNPRONOUNCEABLE to get better reactions from the participants in this forum.

My own pet theory is that Kitco participants, discovering that precious metals have not turned out to be the wonderful "gods" they hoped they would be, are now searching for some new divine inspiration somewhere.

Personally, I think ANOTHER might well consider a new name change that is more appropriate to his particular rant....something like OIL BULL or GAS GOD or how about PETROL PROPHET?

In the final analysis, I would rather quickly scroll past Mr. Another's mystical teachings and oddball conspiracy theory to the more cogent, relevant postings that appear on this forum.

I take exception to a few key aspects of Americans' whinges. In the
first place, evidence exists to suggest that we cannot and we must not
allow ourselves to become infected with the fatal germs of
post- structuralism. This seems so obvious, I am amazed there is even any
discussion about it. His followers portray themselves as fervent
believers in freedom of speech and expression, but are loath to reveal
that this view dangerously underestimates the macabre quality of
propagandism. He leaves me no choice but to become the target of
prejudice, ridicule, discrimination, and physical violence. We all
learned the Golden Rule in school. Maybe Americans was absent that day.
You may be surprised to learn that I was once like him. I, too, wanted
to curry favor with lascivious xenophobic wastrels using a barrage of
flattery, especially recognition of their "value," their "importance,"
their "educational mission," and other frightful nonsense. It interfered
with my judgement, my reasoning, and my ability to address the real
issues faced by mankind. I don't normally want to expose anyone to
rigorous sarcasm and satire and disdain, but he unhesitatingly deserves
it. I used to think that dastardly power- hungry misers were the most
pompous people on the planet, but now I know that it would be downright
despicable for him to pigeonhole people into predetermined categories.
The devil not only finds too much mischief for idle hands to do, but
increasingly in our contemporary world, he causes asinine braggarts to
exert more and more control over other individuals.

Given the range and unpredictability of human behavior, it is quite
possible that every morning Americans asks himself, "How can I fool the
masses today?". There are two related questions in this matter. The
first is to what extent he has tried to mete out harsh and arbitrary
punishment against his adversaries until they're intimidated into a
benumbed, neutralized, impotent, and non- functioning mass. The other is
whether or not I can barely contain myself from going into a laughing
fit when I see one of these laughable wretched- types. Of course, in a
discussion of this type, one should indeed mention that I'm giving him
the benefit of the doubt, which is more than he's given me. To be
honest, sometimes, scurrilous survivalists are so self- righteous, they
merit special attention. A large percentage of Americans' cronies can be
termed annoying. It's destructive barbaric bimbos like Americans that
rip off everyone and his brother. It's shocking just how yellow- bellied
he can be. Which brings me to my next criticism of Americans.

It is never easy to judge what the most appropriate or effective
response to his prodigal ideals is, but one unfortunate fact remains
clear: He represents the most recent incarnation of the unique
20th- century phenomenon known as "disagreeable revisionism". It is
becoming increasingly obvious to many people that my manuscripts are
clearly in defense of decency and human dignity and violate nobody's
rights. Few people realize that your support of my imprecations is an
ideal way to tell useless loud- types just what you think of their
nonsense. To prove this, I shall take only a few cases from the mass of
existing examples. Domineering stirrers are sharply focused on an
immediate goal: to undermine the current world order. I am, of course,
referring to a recent occurrence which is so well- known, it requires no
comment, except to add that Americans' deputies are united through
fanaticism, narcissism, and cameralism. Frankly, for every dollar we
spend to better our communities, Americans'll spend a thousand more to
convert lush forests into arid deserts. If I didn't think he would
infringe upon our most important constitutional rights, I wouldn't say
that his goons fail to recognize that the reasons that he gives for his
assertions clearly do not correspond with his real motives. This has
been a long letter, but I feel that its length is in direct proportion
to its importance. Why? Because education without action creates
frustration, while action without education leads to Stalinism.


SHAREFIN............IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Farfel ( The Unpronounceable ) : I can enjoy the delight of a good conspiracy theory as well as the next boob but looking over Another's record to date, there's one helluva lot of convoluted ( enigmatic? ) rhetoric and an empty hole where some evidence should be. In the absence of anything tangible - as in varifiable ( hell I'd settle for plausible ) - it shall have to remain what it has become. An occasional mild tickle to the lower level synapses.

farfel: It is now part of Kitco. You are right that it does appear that logic is suspended in a shroud of mystery. What I like is that the approach is fresh, and stimulating. All one needs to do is corroborate any comments with information gleaned from other sources. What cannot be corroborated then remains as entertainment.

To All

Results are out for GFSA- Dries lost 0.139Rand per

share versus a profit of 0.76 in the prior quarter.

Kloof had a loss of 0.581Rand/share vs a loss of 0.442

ramd per share in the prior quarter. About 40 % of

kloof production comprises Libanon and Leeudoorn - These

mines have not been profitable for ages and should

have been shut down a long time ago - The brain dead

GFSA management preferred to keep them onstream with

highly profitable Kloof carrying the two losers as long

as the net results for the 3 mines together was

profitable.

I hope they will be forced to shut down finally.

Shareholders should rejoice if they do. Also maybe

16 tons of uneconomically produced gold will come off

the market.

Im glad that the strange gentleman who comments

from time to time on RSA is now reading a better class

of newspaper ( thanks to my advice ) . I see he saw the

BBC report on violence in RSA which is directed

AGAINST crime. I like this very much. Mandela and the

half wit Justice Minister Dullah Omar have been the

main obstacles to reinstating the death penalty.

The only solution to the crime problem is for the

death penalty to be reinstated at grass roots level,

which is now in progress. If one worries about things

like "anarchy" then I direct them to to some recent

posts by OLDMAN which are correct - The "anarchy" that

exists in an RSA township is more on less identical to

that in an American inner city ghetto, with the

possible difference being that the Americans are MORE

violent, bigger, and better armed.

Haggis: Agreed. Unstintingly. You have us nailed to a T. .... Tee? ..... Your sentence construction has taken a remarkable turn for the better. But you really must pay more attention to agreement between subject and predicate.

they mention in the FP yesterdays issue perhaps TVX may face the same fate as PGU and RYO. Anyone wish to share their views.

I have been away for a couple of hour and can't find ANOTHER's promised post Hae I missed it or are we still waiting.

AND FEW POSTS LATER

John Disney: What are you anticipating from DROOY? It seems to have found a bottom and been acting more positively, of late. I hope it doesn't need POG $400 to pick its ass up off the ground.

Karras, FP has never been a notable media exponent on gold's behalf. The newspaper always has been quick to highlight negative developments in the gold sector. Keep that fact well in mind when you read their negative statements with respect to various gold mining companies. In other words, FP is promoting a gold shorter's agenda. It is that simple.

REPOST ( Jan. 17, 98 )

Ramrod, I assume you hold a great short position in Echo Bay...and I further assume you are shorting all other gold stocks. Because when you scream fire in a crowded theatre ( as you do here on this forum ) , then you are trying to foment a panic. It is especially irresponsible at a time when gold show indications of improving strength ( and conversely, other general equities seem poised to weaken greatly )

Now, if Echo Bay collapses as you predict, then I can name you at least 7- 10 other gold mining companies that will fold along with it over the next month.

Echo Bay's situation is not good...but guess what, it ain't good for any of the gold companies at 290 an ounce or lower.

Now, I have repeatedly urged gold investors on this forum to remain united in purpose. Do not allow the shorters to scare the crap out of you!

Along with these pleas, I have hoped that more solvent gold producers ( like Barrick and Newmont ) would expedite the process of consolidation such that many failing gold companies do not fold.

Otherwise, there will be mass panic contagion run through the entire gold mining sector that will leave majors ( like Barrick and Newmont ) as decimated as all the rest. Because when panic sets into the gold mining sector, once again, investors will toss out anything with the word "gold" affixed to it.

If you doubt this prognostication, then you need only remember BRE- X as a good example of what a single company disaster can do to the entire industry in which it is a member.

There has been much discussion on the forum tonight about crime in the States. It is almost a given that the Clinton Justice Deptartment is seriously cooking the books when they report a falling crime statistic in any category. It is true that we have a serious problem, but it is largely confined to the ghetto communnities that are tied to dependancy upon the welfare state. The most rampant form of crime is black on black. Jessie Jackson let the truth drop last year when on a trip to New York he noted sadly he only feared when he encountered a black brother & not when he realized he was encountering a white person. Ofcourse, he was not being a racist, but merely sharing the truth about his purely rational view about the statistacal probability of being a crime victim.
I read in The NATIONAL REVIEW of last year that if you removed the black demographics from US crime statistics, you would have a crime rate somewhere between Sweeden & Luxenburg !
Beginning with Johnson's Great Society, the black family structure has been decimated by the principal of the AFDC program ( The US version of the DOLE ) that excludes the black male from being present in the black home & has alienated & decivlized a generation of black males & concomitant famly culture as a result. This has been the main fruit of compassionate liberalism in America.
Please understand that this is not a racial issue, & I am not espousing any theory of inferiority, but of subjugation that ought not to be countenanced by any race or society. If the black family structure could be revived, the crime problem would virtually vanish !
My point is that this is a government driven problem & not a result of any racial deficiency.

Y.O.S.
Tar Baby
P. S. I know white families have their own set of disintergrating problems & that in absolute numbers there are more whites on welfare than
blacks.

Haggis: I couldn't resist one last post. Now what minor changes do we make so that this infernal device can be used to emulate anyone? Should we start with a politician or two?

Sharefin - - what is happening? The world will never be the same! You and I are now no longer necessary. What shall we do now that we are about to be replaced by a comment machine?

Ziva: Thanks I have read ANOTHER'S post and possibly managed to follow the tortuous phrasing. Interesting concept of oil producers determining the value of oil differently for gold vs paper. Don't know enough to comment on the likelihood of such an eventuality but for the foreseeable future I think Iraq has demonstrated the fate of anyone who tries to make oil purchasing problems for the US.

Fear not, no machine could ever replace you or the fin that shares. Such as it is as this point, the element missing would be the soul. Live long and transfer your personality which will always make a machine want to be more than it can ever be.

There has been much discussion on the forum tonight about crime in the States. It is almost a given that the Clinton Justice Deptartment is seriously cooking the books when they report a falling crime statistic in any category. It is true that we have a serious problem, but it is largely confined to the ghetto communnities that are tied to dependancy upon the welfare state. The most rampant form of crime is black on black. Jessie Jackson let the truth drop last year when on a trip to New York he noted sadly he only feared when he encountered a black brother & not when he realized he was encountering a white person. Ofcourse, he was not being a racist, but merely sharing the truth about his purely rational view about the statistacal probability of being a crime victim.
I read in The NATIONAL REVIEW of last year that if you removed the black demographics from US crime statistics, you would have a crime rate somewhere between Sweeden & Luxenburg !
Beginning with Johnson's Great Society, the black family structure has been decimated by the principal of the AFDC program ( The US version of the DOLE ) that excludes the black male from being present in the black home & has alienated & decivlized a generation of black males & concomitant famly culture as a result. This has been the main fruit of compassionate liberalism in America.
Please understand that this is not a racial issue, & I am not espousing any theory of inferiority, but of subjugation that ought not to be countenanced by any race or society. If the black family structure could be revived, the crime problem would virtually vanish !
My point is that this is a government driven problem & not a result of any racial deficiency.

Y.O.S.
Tar Baby
P. S. I know white families have their own set of disintergrating problems & that in absolute numbers there are more whites on welfare than
blacks.

Uh- oh. Report that the Prez had 2 year affair with 23 y.o. WH Intern. There may be tapes. http://www.drudgereport.com/1.htm Arf, Buddy

You certainly nailed it on the head! But seriously don't you believe that
someone always has to be on top? Ins't that Human even aminal Nature?
Think of the billions of sperm that fight upstream to fertilize one egg ,only
ONE of them makes it then the egg spins and spins and chemically does
not allow another sperm to enter. Think of the 800 pound gorilla who fights with other Gorillas to dominate the harem of females , to pass on his genes. One could virtually go on and on..... with such examples. The fact that this fight for supremacy is and has been since Cain and Able, fought in our own real lives, and yes with whole nations of peoples, with some countries on top and others at the bottom should not, when all considered, be surprising or news or conspiracy IMHO it is Nature.
I could however in defence of the US think of much worse scenarios if some others say the Chinese ran the World, they would use real bullets
to change our behavior and not propaganda to fool the masses.
It is also just as natural to fight against he who is on top of you, and that time wil surely come for America. A friend of mine has coined the phrase "The US is inflicting financial genocide on some peoples" in order to maitain its status and power thru the US$. I can hear it now
"YANKEE GO HOME"

Just to add a bit to the GUNS and violence discussion earlier, it is my
understanding that a good portion of thousands of the murders in the US each year are caused by knives, bats and other such items other than guns which leads me to agree with those who were of the view that
people kill people. An interesting thought, IF the US is to be World Cop
and in need of "violent" soldiers, what better place to recruit same, than the mean streets of any US city.
I would also agree with those who stated that indeed because of Guns
and the right thereof to bear Guns that freedom and "democracy" exists
and flourishes in the US.

BTW many thinks for the expose by Dr Coleman on the Committee of 300. I'm going to file that right in there with the reports from Kim Philby, Donald McLean, & Co.

Visited the BIS and I see nothing about the bank which would cause it to intervene in the gold market if the price of gold were to go below $280.
The Bank was simply capitalized in gold francs in 1930. Well capitalized. If the bank has been involved in the gold market, it has acted on behalf of central banks in pursuit of monetary and financial stability and reserve portfolio management. All that CB's deposit with it, however, is currency ( paper ) .

I think all these CB guys, AG included, want to do is keep gold down so the press doesn't write about inflation. They sell gold and they loan gold to producers to keep supply ahead of demand and control perceptions.

But there are seeming contradictons. If the CB's want to increase gold production, why would they allow gold to fall so low so long that the mining industry is being damaged and SA may combust ? Just to create an impression of deflation to disguise their actual policy of inflation ?
A plan that backfired when the unexpected fires started in Asia ?

Canada has a large number of people whose descendants were expelled from America. This is the foundation for their resentment of all things American and they infect a lot of other Canadians with it and have developed a mid- Canada sub- culture on it.

America is peopled by a large number of individuals like Miro who migrated for freedom and individual rights and who believe they have the right to keep and bear arms in self- defence regardless of what the Queen may say.

Canadians only owned white slaves. Americans owned black and white slaves.

Canadians design their electric line pylons to fall down in ice storms under strict government supervision. Americans sell them pylons built to their specifications.

A Canadian has an excuse for penis envy because he doesn't have a gun. An American has no excuse.

Canadians have been granted rights ? Americans have granted limited powers to their government in written constitutions. That's why some say those who do not see the difference are people living in Can of Duh.

For Earl

Drooy is a tough one - I suspect that the group may

be able to get their costs down to a little over 300

per once _ I believe they should close DBN Deep it

self and just operate Blyvoor and Buffels. We'll

know where their costs are in a week or so.

for Newtron - If the Black township element was

isolated from the crime statistic along with the

incidents of crime perpetrated by Blacks in non Black

areas, in RSA, Im sure you would also have crime figures

in line with Germany or a Scandanavian country too.

Problem is, we cannot lay the blame on the Government

welfare program in these figures. Like it or not, it

either comes out RACE, or if you want to be less

controversial, African "cultural".

Dont like to have to say this, as it opens me up to

charges of racist ( which Im not ) from various and assorted

dorks. But the conclusion is unavoidable.

Pete ( ALL!!- Bank Credit Ratings ) ID#22451:
Date: Sat Jan 17 1998 14:03

Your post was very insightful. It shows how greed plays on ignorance, and becomes bolder when no one notices. It seems now people will begin to notice.

That greed has become so bold as to alert all to the vulnerability of paper ( it's main instrument of deception ) through the debacle it has caused in Asia. Now it can't help itself from following through and buying at the fire sale, revealing itself further.

So, greed always defeats itself in the end.

Just got back from three hours reading Kitco.
Isn't it great when computers can abuse.
( Complaints about Kitco )
Thought it good for a laugh - Ta AURATOR.
At least I can still think.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email chatter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Northern Miner Volume 83 Number
47 January 19- 25, 1998
LETTER TO THE EDITOR - - World's governments can't print gold
The comments made by David Gulley ( "An historic juncture for
gold," T.N.M., Jan. 5- 11/98 ) provide useful ammunition for those
of us trying to persuade skeptics that gold has not had its day.
Quite the reverse, in fact. For holders of worthless Asian assets,
there are very few easily tradable alternatives; United States
dollar bonds are one, and gold is another.
Here in Europe, the French and German governments are spearheading
the creation of the so- called Euro, due to be launched next year. This
has been designed by politicians ( alarm bells should start ringing here ) to
replace the currencies of France, Germany and any other country willing
to fudge the criteria for entry. This politically controlled monetary policy
will ensure suspect currency from the start. As Europe's citizens see their
old money replaced by the kind used in the game Monopoly, they, like
their Asian counterparts, will seek refuge in U.S. dollars and gold.
In today's world, most governments are still borrowing just to pay
interest on their debt, never mind repaying the principal. Such a process
inevitably ends in tears.
So why invest in gold? Simple - - it's the only form of money which
governments can't print.
Peter Walker Managing Director, Scandinavian Gold Prospecting,
Ostersund, Sweden
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MOBIUS ON EAST ASIA - - Is it merely conjecture?
"A period of floating exchange rates in the region would prevent a similar asset price bubble occurring again but would also be an impediment to trade.
Perhaps a system similar to the European Union's Exchange Rate Mechanism ( ERM ) could be developed in Asia.
I believe that such a system founded on a gold standard could be implemented effectively in Asia. Of course, this would be fraught with difficulties."
So sayeth Dr. Mobius.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I say the following is worthy of consideration.
As East Asian markets start to resurface, they begin accumulating the yellow metal. Only difficulty is that, at some point, the U.S. threatens to pull all support from their re- emergence for their favoring gold over greenbacks. But, the U.S. does so only after the greenback has fallen enough to provide some much welcomed relief to a few export sectors of the U.S. economy. Meanwhile, we are aware of how well gold reacts to a falling U.S. dollar. Gold's reaction, coupled with the threatening rhetoric is read, therefor, by many as merely a technical rally.
The Asians disregard the chastisement for being just that, even as savy Western investment houses also begin to take shares in gold- based instruments. The pundits' prognosticating goes "poof," the metal dips once to tip it's hat to the pundits, then never looks back as the Asians from Tokyo to the Subcontinent renew gold's priority status.
All the while potential Euro- members kick- up a fuss about consolidating sovereign monetary and fiscal policies. ( Look for Spain to play an increasingly pivotal role as they share interests with North American policy- makers over their considerable S.A. holdings and indifference for Franco- Prussian strategies. )
Should China crumble in the interim, none of the above will come about.
Also, keep an eye on news from Germany as they have been cozying- up to Beijing for some time now.
http://satellite.nikkei.co.jp/enews/SPECIAL/market/news26.html#top

George Cole Scotty: I'm certainly bullish but am not counting on the mother of all short squeezes. The specs have been heavily short ( correctly so ) all the way down. I suspect the smart ones already are starting to cover and some may actually be long by the time the yellow breaks out decisively. Let's face it - - the shorts have been the smart money in this market for the past 2 years.
If Republic National Bank actually is covering its shorts as reported by USA GOLD, that would be very bullish indeed.

George, plenty of naivete about what's happening in Asia and always a misunderstanding of the problem. Despite the calls for "fiscal stimulation," the Japanese have already tried every imaginable alternative this decade.
The simple problem remains: once enough chips are called in, you can't get rid of so much bad debt without walking away from your currency or letting the dominoes fall.
I'll start thinking recovery only after I see the Nikkei well under 10000.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980117/japan_stoc_1.html

To understand Japan's xenophobic ways really requires an understanding of their history.
I am going to make an attempt at a very abbreviated history of Japan to explain my thesis of xenophobia currents in that country. In prehistory Japan was settled by hunter/gatherers. The first evidence of communal living is dated at around 13,000 bc, and is known as the Jomon period which lasted for approximately 10,000 years. Then around 300 bc a period known as Yayoi emerged, influenced by new arrivals of immigrants from China and Korea who brought with them rice growing and metal work.
Chinese Wei Dynasty documents, circa 300 bc, refer to Japan as an eastern uncivilized island occupied by a war like people. One theory holds that immigration to Japan from China accelerated during the Han dynasty, during which new technologies were brought to Japan.
A theory holds that Japan was invaded by Mongolians around the 3- 4th century AD, subjugating the Yayoi rice growers. The horsemen conquered the central Japan and established a nation incorporating the indigenous clans as a United Clans of Japan, sitting at the top as the "Imperial Court". As the conquerors had horses, iron making technology, communication with the
continent through the Korean Peninsula and other advantages over the natives clans, the whole process went on without much conflict. They were superior militarily and culturally to the rice farming Yayoi population. Thus began a period called the Yamato, marked by the first emergence of a national identity.
In the 6th century AD written language and Confucianism was first brought to Japan from China. In 538 Bhuddism was introduced by Baekje Koreans who were escaping from a North Korean tribe known as the Kokuryo. In 588 AD the first Bhuddist temple was built In addition this wave of Korean immigration brought with it smelting, weaving, road construction, ceramics, and paper making. In the 6th century AD civil leadership was largely vested in Empress Suiko and her regent Shotoku Taishi. The latter wrote the first constitution incorporating 17 articles which included the admonition to respect Bhudda and the local gods, thus eliminating religious conflict. Sho- Toku- Taishi also had the effrontery to write and dispatch a letter to the Emperor of China saying in it: "Greetings from the land of the rising sun to the land of the setting sun, are you well?" for it was at this time that Kanji, the Chinese system of ideographs was introduced.
In 712 AD the first history book in the Japanese language using Chinese ideographs was written, based on the passing down over the centuries of a rich oral history. Again, the idea of this book was imported from China where scholars had long been recording their own history.
To learn the Chinese civilization deeper and faster, the Japanese government of the eighth century started sending selected young men to China on regular basis. At that time, China was under the long rules of Tun Dynasty, which was prosperous and expanded its territories over the vast steppes of central Asia and reaching close to India. It had trade routes established with the remnant of the Roman Empire and the Islamic sphere of influence in Central Asia and the middle- east.
One of these young men was Ko- Bo- Daishi a bright Buddhist monk who was sent to China to study the latest Buddhism sutra of the day. ( China was then considered the center of excellence for Buddhism studies. ) Ko- Bo- Daishi returned and became the founder of a new school of Esoteric Buddhism,
had a great power over the government, built a lot of temples, engineered an earth- filled dam for irrigation, developed new medicines, cured the sick and invented kana, Japanese phonetic characters leading to the popularization of education and literacy Selectively Japan accepted ideas and technologies from China through books and occasional refugees who sought asylum from the revolutions in the continent.
From then until the twelfth century AD there were periods of actively seeking out new ideas and technologies from the mainland, followed by periods of isolation and assimilation. Several ideas and technologies made their way to Japan including the cultivation of mulberry trees for silk and paper making ( these grew well in the mountainous regions whereas rice cultivation was only possible in approximately 20% of the land due to the topography ) , new mining technologies ( as silver and copper sources were discovered on the island ) , architecture, and medicines. By the start of the 10th century there had arisen an aristocracy, centered in Kyoto, and primarily concerned with manners of religion, poetry, and other aesthetics. In the meantime great farmer clans rose in strength throughout the hinterlands. These were the familial cultivators of rice. By the end of the tenth century, all the flood plains of major rivers in the Honshu island found rice farming under the self control of the local clans. Rice was power and wealth. The real political power started to change hands from the aristocrats in Kyoto to the armed farmer clans in the countryside. Unlike the aristocrats in Kyoto, the farming clans were totally self sufficient. Warlike they maintained armed forces, and waged war on one another, primarily over the occupation of precious land to grow more rice. Out of this movement emerged the ways of the Samurai. Thus the middle ages of Japan began, with power flowing to and fro on the wings of constant feuds while Kyoto became the religious and cultural center of Japan. This feudal system lasted until the mid 19th century during which Japan was largely insular and estranged from other nations and influences.
When the Western- China trade emerged in the 17th century and grew in importance those countries that gave any attention to Japan, mostly Dutch and Chinese, found their emissaries confined to Nagasaki. This didn't change until two hundred years later when Perry arrived in 1853 with his gunboat diplomacy forcing the Japanese to open trade. ( The Japanese acceded, believing it was better to ally with the Americans then face the threat from China alone.
1868 marks the beginning of the Meiji period whence Japan makes the true transition to a nation- state. Official policy is to enrich Japan through imperialism and grow a strong military. Interestingly, while gun powder was known of in Japan by way of China, it was in 1553 that the Japanese first learned about modern armament when some Portuguese soldiers were shipwrecked on their shores.
At this point I won't delve into the militarism of the Meiji period and the consequences that led to World War II. The post war recovery of Japan earmarked by a new wave of imported ideas ( such as the transistor and Deming's TQM ) is fairly well understood.
Here I want to conclude with a point. Throughout Japan's history that Island nation has assimilated most of its ideas, tapping other cultures. Japan's adaptability to new ideas and ,in fact, its ability to improve on many of them is very well known. Today's preoccupation in Japan by the young people with western pop culture is little different. But at the level of the centers of power, and among the decision makers and influencers, Japan is what it always was. Insular, xenophobic, and racially biased. The assimilation of ideas has nothing to do with the other. While it is a paradox, so has it always been.

HMMM...Maybe Gold has a place in relation with Currencies after all.
Thursday January 15, 11:49 pm Eastern Time
OPINION - Asia currency crisis - By Mark Mobius
By Dr J. Mark Mobius, Templeton Asset Management Ltd
HONG KONG, Jan 16 - The Asian currency crisis, which started in July in Thailand, has had a dramatic and largely unanticipated effect on the region's equity markets.
As of December 5, 1997, the Thailand market was down 88 percent in U.S. dollar terms from its all- time high. Enormous falls from all- time highs have also been seen in Korea ( 85 percent ) and Malaysia ( 72 percent ) .
Many other countries in the Asia region have seen equity prices fall by more than 50 percent from all- time highs. The number of countries involved and the extent of the market declines indicate that the current crisis dwarfs the Mexico crisis of 1995. In hindsight the origins of the crisis can be traced back to the imprudent exchange rate policies adopted by the governments of the region which encouraged companies to borrow excessive amounts of foreign currency fuelling a region- wide speculative bubble to rival that of Japan almost a decade earlier.
When the currencies of the region finally succumbed to the enormous pressure of huge current account deficits and speculative attacks, they fell like rocks.
The devaluation of the currencies had a knock- on effect on the equity markets of the region because so many companies and governments had borrowed U.S. dollars heavily, attracted by the low dollar interest rates being offered during the last few years.
Their governments had assured them that the exchange rates of their local currencies against the U.S. dollar would not change so they assumed no or little currency risk.
The domino effect of falling currencies thus had a disastrous impact on the cost of paying back the U.S. dollar loans putting many companies into bankruptcy and thus affecting the banking systems in those countries.
The rush for cash then consumed equity market prices in a wild melee of selling the likes of which has not been seen for many years. The Asian currency crisis spells the end of the system of U.S. dollar pegs for the region's currencies which has been in existence for a long time. What system will replace it is, as yet, unclear.
A period of floating exchange rates in the region would prevent a similar asset price bubble occurring again but would also be an impediment to trade.
Perhaps a system similar to the European Union's Exchange Rate Mechanism ( ERM ) could be developed in Asia.
I believe that such a system founded on a gold standard could be implemented effectively in Asia. Of course, this would be fraught with difficulties.
The fundamentals of the countries in the region are even more disparate than those in Europe where the introduction of a unified currency is now being implemented.
However, the alternative of floating exchange rates creates all kinds of problems for domestic exporters and importers in Asia.
The good news is that floating rates would force governments in the region to be accountable for their actions to the world markets. This might encourage them to adopt prudent macroeconomic policies and rein in government spending on inefficient projects.
The International Monetary Fund has come in for some serious criticism in recent months, both for its handling of the crisis and for the austerity measures it has imposed on the countries that it has bailed out.
In the long run, however, the structural changes that are being enacted now in Korea, Indonesia and Thailand will be of immense benefit to these economies and help to prevent such crises occurring again.
However, the history of the 20th century has shown that governments cannot resist fixing their currencies in some way and more often than not they pay the price for their inability to learn from their mistakes.
We see the Asian currency crisis as an excellent opportunity to purchase stocks at bargain prices and we have been aggressively buying in those countries where equity prices in U.S. dollar terms have fallen the furthest.
In several countries we now have the situation where panic selling has driven both equity prices and the currency to ridiculously low levels.
Many currencies that were overvalued before the crisis are now significantly undervalued and from a long- term perspective many stocks in the region represent very good bargains.
With day- to- day trading in the region still looking pretty scary it takes great fortitude of mind to take the plunge and invest. The best time to buy is when blood is running in the streets, even if it is your own.
However, while this is a great long- term strategy there remains the possibility that the crisis of confidence among investors will push equity prices in the region lower and that currencies will continue to depreciate.
Investors in these markets must be ready to experience losses for a while before the profits start coming in.

Watch this deflationary scenario as it unfolds. Gold collapsing, petroleum, copper, petrochemicals... along with currencies. Include computers, clothing, cars made in Asia.
The longer term problem here on the crisis thread that we're developing here is watching a global credit implosion as commodities and assets collapse in value. As people around the globe compete things will get cheaper...and cheaper...and cheaper. Soon Thomas gasoline will get to 1 US penny a gallon and then the Europeans with gas at $3.01 a gallon will wonder about the real pageant of things.
My god in your last post Barton says the Nikei at 8,000: the Hang Seng at 3,000 and he claims he's never been wrong ( recently ) . Well I guess pencils ( to sell in the street ) will be cheaper too.

My only anecdotal evidence right now is based on an LA Times article at the beginning of the year documenting the panic buying occurring in grocery stores in Korea. It brought to mind an update to the old international investing cliche, "Buy when blood is running in the streets". Updated, its "Buy when toilet paper becomes a store of value".

NonzeroA, the people in SEA must feel like they have the toilet paper right in their wallet.

Abbey Josheh Cohen on Asia and the Marekt.
Geoff and thread: In case you haven't seen this inverview yesterday.
CNBC interview with Bill Griffeth: ( Jan.16,1998 )
CNBC:
The Asian situation - is that the straw that's stirring Wall Street's drink right now, and if so, are we nearer the end of that crisis, in your view, and it's effect on Wall Street, or nearer the beginning?
AJC:
It seems to me that the stock market in the United States has been focusing keen attention on Asia since last August, and, since that period of time, we have been stuck in a very choppy trading range. Our own sense is that the impact of Asian developments on the United States will prove to be far more muted than the many of the pessimists have estimated to this point and we do think that US stock prices can move higher, once there's clarification.
CNBC:
Certainly the numbers from an Intel or Motorola this week would suggest that it wasn't that big a factor for the 4th quarter but there are plenty of people who argue that it wouldn't have been a factor in the 4th quarter - maybe it won't be for another quarter or two - then we start to see to see the slowdown effects of the Asian crisis. Do you disagree?
AJC:
Even if Asia does have a larger impact early in 1998 than it did at the end of 1997, the fact remains that our domestic economy is doing extremely well - and the United States is primarily a domestic economy.
CNBC:
But, you would then argue - look we're in an international economy today, Aren't we? A global economy that benefits from the liberalized trade agreements that have been passed in the last few years and we benefit from the upside. Don't we have to suffer from the downside as well?
AJC:
I think there is some truth to that, but we have to keep in mind the relative proportions. Foreign trade for the United States is equal to just about thirteen - one three - thirteen percent of our GDP and that is a much smaller proportion than it is in many other nations. Now US companies do do foreign direct investment in other countries but it's not all in Asia. We do a great deal of business in North America - both Canada and Mexico. Both of those economies are looking quite good. We also do a great deal of business in Europe and there seems to be some improvement on the margin there as well.
CNBC:
The last question on Asia - and then we'll get our own markets here primarily. The news out of Asia has been hopeful this week with the signing of the more stringent agreement with the IMF and Indonesia. We had Roger Altman earlier today, a former deputy Treasury secretary, who's had first hand knowledge of how these kinds of bailouts work and he says , "Look, things are still very fragile and any of these agreements could unravel." If that's the case, do we see a bigger play on Wall Street then - even if it's only psychological?
AJC:
It seems to me that what matters at the end of the day for the US stock market is what's happening in those economies and what's happening in the economies of other trade partners. It may very well be that we'll be in a period of slower growth in the global economy but we certainly do not see a global recession on the horizon.
CNBC:
OK. Back here now. Earnings? You expect them to meet expectations? I mean, some expectations have been coming down here for the last few months. Do you expect that to continue?
AJC:
We have always seen a pattern, Bill, where at the end of the year expectations do come down, because expectations almost every year start a little bit too high. We have not seen that 4th quarter expectations are being cut any more dramatically than in any previous quarter. What we're watching most intently is what the companies tell us about the first half of 1998. To this point, not enough companies have reported yet and so the information is really fragmentary. But, what we do know is that most of those companies what have reported have said that their results were quite good in the 4th quarter?
CNBC:
And you would expect that to continue?
AJC:
We do think that 1998 will be a good year although profit growth on average will be slightly slower than it was in 1997. Asia is part of that.
CNBC:
And what about growth for the stock market itself? Certainly we've had two or three stellar years - 20% gains - unprecedented for the Dow Jones Industrial average. What do you expect for 1998?
AJC:
I think 1998 will be yet another good year - but perhaps not quite as stellar. In 1997, stock prices were propelled upward, especially in the first half of the year, not just by improvements in profits but also because PE ratios went up. PE's go up when inflation and interest rate expectations go down. We may
have a little more of that and a little more multiple expansion, but I think that we have seen most of the increase in the PE in 1997.
CNBC:
Sectors that you feel will leave the way this year?
AJC:
I think there are three laggards thus far that will be leaders. Financial services stocks have been very hard hit because of overreaction to the impact of Asia on them. Second category - Technology - there are some companies that will have some problems, but the overall sector we think will do very well. And the third area that we have been expecting to better for a while and it has not, is small and mid- cap stocks. They look very cheap - but they can stay cheap until investors feel confident enough to add a little more beta, a little more pizzazz to the portfolio.
CNBC:
What is it about market psychology that's keeping the focus on the blue chips and away from those smaller companies that you've been talking about?
AJC:
I think it's uncertainty. Asia, for many people, was a bolt out of the blue. And because many people had not done the analysis ahead of time, they're still a little bit confused about what the ultimate impact may be. Lets also keep in mind that it IS a moving target. There's still many more developments up ahead and while there's uncertainty, there's always a tendency to focus to on those securities that perhaps are the largest cap and most liquid, that is, the most easily traded - you can buy them quickly and sell them quickly. And they also tend to be the companies that are very well followed by Wall Street analysts and so there's a better sense of how the earnings are going.
CNBC:
Last question - what about interest rates? Certainly we've been at historic lows for the 30 year treasury bond in terms of yield. We've had not a yield curve but a yield line. Basically, the spread between the short end and the long end not very wide. Good or bad for the stock market if this continues?
AJC:
It seems to us that inflation and interest rates will be comfortable for the stock market over the next few months. It may very well be that reported inflation goes down a bit more and it could also happen that intermediate and long bond yields go down a bit more as well. We're not disturbed about the flatness of the yield curve. Let's keep in mind that the previous fifteen years, we had an usually steep yield curve. This is in fact closer to the more normal historical pattern.
CNBC:
I lied. Last question now. Upward target for the Dow this year?
AJC:
We think an easily reachable target for the Dow is 8700 and for the S& P 1175. Bill, you know that what I like to do, is set targets that I feel comfortable that we can reach, and then go through.

My dear Thomas don't be depressed. I didn't mean to depress you. Things go in cycles you know. I look at this ASian deflationary scenario as a good thing. Part of a cycle.
I do wish you could have read the hugely researched and detailed New York Times "expose" of both the Bhutto and the Suharto famlies. My god, Ms. Butto had a Swiss company contract to do a study of how the Pakistani government could collect more efficient customs revenues. The Bhuttos then took 10% of the fees acrued to the Swiss company in fees... as a bribe for giving them the contract. We are living in times of great ingenuity.
Looking at the crisis in Asia it is a good thing for the people of Asia that they move out of the banana republic phases of their history. Send the Suhartos off to Palm Beach where they can stay warm.
As far as world deflation in concerned it would seems to me that Europe has been in a deflation for 20 years. Think about the huge rates of unemployment in western Eruope and the countries in Europe who have absolutely wrung out any extra margins they could as more and more of the GNP slips into the government's hands via entitlement programs. Europe has practically institutionalized deflation.
The same thing has been evident in America since, perhaps, 1990 when we went thorugh the deflationary wringer of the great real estate bubble bursting and then winding down of the S& L crisis. Here in America it is no joke to say that huge numbers of men and women have been layed off from well- paying jobs - they haven't gotten anything like their old jobs back - but in the existing financial boomlet they have watched their children get their jobs instead. Every other year I go to the west and see places that were packed in the 1980's almost completely empty of people. Hotels empty. Restaurants. Think about Texas. I used to go to Houston and ask cab drivers what they once did. Nobody ever said, "Boy. I could hardly wait to grow up so I can drive a cab in Houston."
So don't be depressed. Europe, particularly Europe, has been living in deflationary times for decades. Every other year I go climbing in Europe and I am struck how tightly the people are being squeezed. It usedt to Europe and bought quality clothes, climbing equipment, etc. Now what is offered and bought is the absolutely cheapest sort of thing you'd find in the lowere end ofthe retail establishments here. I don't mean for this to sound shirty. It is merely an observation about the price that has been paid in Europe by people in the great unremarked deflation.
So. Don't be depressed. It is just Asia's turn.
Europe and the US are both well down the road of deflationary contraction despite what the economists say. We are near the bottom and for us it is onwards and upwards. IMHO.
This started out to be a short note. Sorry. My usual convoluted thinking leading off into the swampo.

http://talk.techstocks.com/dz/asia.html
Good article on Asia.

Global Web Cams
http://www.rainier.net/~larry/web- voyeur/

of my day. @ comments, tho... 1 AJC will someday wake up to reality and 2 . The dow averages , in 1967 dollars, have gained nothing, zilch, nada,nicht.

for theinfo and insishts. this observer really appreciates the gleanings of your collective minds. Thanx again.

From the viewpoint of a Tom Paine sort of American of Independence cast,
the Asian crisis is more political in origin than economic. The
political ideas which have governed monetary policy worldwide in this
century are bankrupt. The Asian currency crisis is at bottom a crisis
of the corporate socialism model.

Socialism requires fiat paper currency. The fact virtually all modern
currencies are fiat paper currencies is plain evidence that virtually
all governments are socialist. The non- corporate socialist model failed
as communism. The triumphant model of socialism is American Corporate
Socialism and it is this model which has now failed in Asia. It has
failed because the accounting system of capitalism is fictional when
"currency" is a function of politics. Debt is fictional when it can be
printed or borrowed away using "national credit". Assets which can be
"valued" at any level required by political and national purpose are
fictions. The Japanese taught their Asian neighbors how to bank as
corporate socialists: Finance national borrowing on the collateral of
land and equity assets. Japan has mastered this use of one form of
financial fiction as collateral for another form, but they learned their
methods of banking from the Americans. The Asian bank bailouts of 1998
were presaged by the American bailout of its S& L and banking sector in
the 1980's and the American bailout of its banks in Mexico in the
1990's.

The accounting system inherent to the market side of Corporate Socialism
is simply indigestible to the Socialist side. The fiction of public
fiat debt and interest on debt is the granite ceiling that all socialist
economies eventually must crash into. The American model of Corporate
Socialism works for America because the dollar is the world reserve
currency. When your foreign debt is denominated in the same currency
which you can create at will, no financial crisis is insurmountable. As long as your people will pay the necessary tax.

The American model worked in other countries during the Cold War for
political reasons. Importing inflation from America was a small tax to
pay in return for safety from the Soviets. But, in a world of national
economic competititon, the American model will only work for the
Americans. Other nations that hit the granite ceiling of public fiat
debt must give up either the political fictions of socialism or the
accounting fictions of corporatism. Chile is instructive.

It is a great irony that America, which learned to hate fiat paper money
during the Independence War when "not worth a Continental" became a
byword, that America, which still has in its Constitution a clause
prohibiting a State to "make anything but gold or silver a tender in
payment of debt", and, that America, which authorized "coining money" in
its Constitution, a phrase which for 80 years was understood to mean
money was minted gold or silver, has led the world into the miserable
cul de sac of fiat paper currency in the service of National Socialism.

All of the solutions proposed to the Asian crisis are socialist: impose
controls on currency, trade, markets, and finance. All of the agencies
which are to impose these solutions are international. But is a policy
of sacrificing a nation to the needs of international socialism going to
prevail in any country over a policy of nationalism and national
interest ? I think not. There will be more than one "Iraq" and
"Serbia" at odds with the U.N., the I.M.F., and the other organs of
world socialism before this decade is done. And nations, perhaps
including even the American nation, will return to their cultural roots
and national origins to find their way in the coming century of
competitive currency devaluation, financial instability, and social and
political turmoil.

You are obviously not a Monte Python fan .... "always look on the bright side of life"...... it's the only one you've got!

You are obviously not a Monte Python fan .... "always look on the bright side of life"...... it's the only one you've got!

Quite to the contrary, I liked that search for the Grail.
Three Stooges, as well.
Too bad, too, Will Rogers isn't around these days. In the 20"s, he said, "There's people in government that shouldn't be allowed to play with matches."

I suspect that Dr. Coleman is another frustrated mystery writer. I knew WHEN Dr. Kissinger had been bought from Harvard by the Rockefeller people; therefor, I halted at Dr. Coleman's assertion that "Kissinger's role in destabilizing the United States by means of three wars, the Middle East, Korea and Vietnam, is well known, as is his role in the Gulf War, in which the U.S. Army acted as mercenaries...."

I wouldn't think that Henry Kissinger was involved in a war in Korea. The years don't mesh.

A PORTION OF HENRY KISSINGER'S BIOGRAPHY

MA, Harvard University in 1952; PhD, Harvard University in 1954.

From 1954 until 1971 he was a member of the Faculty of Harvard University, both in the Department of Government and at the Center for International Affairs. He was Associate Director of the Center from 1957 to 1960. He served as Study Director, Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy, for the Council of Foreign Relations from 1955 to 1956; Director of the Special Studies Project for the Rockefeller Brothers Fund from 1956 to 1958; Director of the Harvard International Seminar from 1951 to 1971, and Director of the Harvard Defense Studies Program from 1958 to 1971. ( He was on leave of absence from Harvard from January 1969

to January 1971. )

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 03:31
mozel: Haggis Bond & BIS & Canadian/American differences

I take it that you are slightly right wing in your outlook.

How do I be polite.........you're a fruit loop.........

Do your self a favour and count your fingers, you should have ten.

Have you ever been outside the USA. Perhaps you should get a job with a humanitarian agency in a third world country, clearing land mines which were manufactured in the USA.

Problem solved.... Dr Coleman is a relation of mozel........

People just seem to fail to see the lighter side of this prejudice/racism issue. For example, I was once required as part of my job to take a week- long training course in EEO. For those of you non- US citizens, EEO is an acronym for how to discriminate against white males at the workplace and otherwise make them utterly paranoid about offending anyone who is not a white male if they can get a job. Well, we had some humourless drone come to our workplace to bore the crap out of us with this stuff. To kick things off she ( oops it ) wanted us all to let each other know what dirtly little crapheads we really were by standing up in front of the group, introducing ourselves and telling all one of our personal prejudices. Some of our more left wing types said cute stuff like "I'm prejudiced against people who are prejudiced". I thought I'd lighten things up a bit. So, when my turn came I said "I was born and raised in Chicago and have lived in worked with people of every race and ethnic background. I can honestly say that I have no prejudices. I hate everybody equally". Well this went on for two and half days. After a while it became clear to me that the instructor was prejudiced against me because she ( oops it ) wouldn't call on me anymore unless mine was the only hand raised. The coup de gras as far as I was concerned came on day three when the instructor was relating a real life drama about a small town in Iowa in which 2000 Vietnemese were relocated to an all white community of about the same number. She asked the class "what would be the very first thing you'd think of if you were one ot these Iowans and all these people suddenly appeared in your community. What would be the very first thing you'd think of". Since the question was phrased in 3rd person and noone else had their hand up, I figured it would be ok to answer. I said " the very first thing I'd think of is where's the dog.". The class laughed uproarously further infuriating the instructor. The upshot was that I was told to keep my mouth shut for the next two days or get thrown out and thus not receive credit for training required for my position. Go figure.

Perceptions of control......is that how you view US "control" on the world, because it is a perception.

Correct me if I am wrong: at this time, America is not known for it's on- going long term investment around the world, BUT it is known for its' short term "smash and grab" via Wall Street.

From my limited experience working with Americans, they generally cannot last the pace?! With respect, a generalisation I know.

America needs Japan more than Japan needs America - "defence" is not a single issue to rationalise Japans "dependence" upon America.

America is a consuming market, and frankly I cannot name a single economy with which it runs a trade surplus?! Costa Rica??

Japan can always create new markets, especially if it joins the "GOLD CLUB" discussed by G Soros - international financial outlays are secure and backed by gold.

The Japanese

Perceptions of control......is that how you view US "control" on the world, because it is a perception.

Correct me if I am wrong: at this time, America is not known for it's on- going long term investment around the world, BUT it is known for its' short term "smash and grab" via Wall Street.

From my limited experience working with Americans, they generally cannot last the pace?! With respect, a generalisation I know.

America needs Japan more than Japan needs America - "defence" is not a single issue to rationalise Japans "dependence" upon America.

America is a consuming market, and frankly I cannot name a single economy with which it runs a trade surplus?! Costa Rica??

Japan can always create new markets, especially if it joins the "GOLD CLUB" discussed by G Soros - international financial outlays are secure and backed by gold.

The Japanese do not put all their eggs in one basket, for example...

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240508.html

So, the liberal media is going to let Clinton off the hook again it appears. How can they look in the mirror? Free Press. Ha.

Seems to me either way the "Thoughts" of "Another" that the USofA is a loser in his riddle. High price gold and gold backed currency - burns the US$ & economy? Cheap oil say US$10.00 p/Brl on the surface sounds good for the public but kills the US industry & the inflation driven US economy who are also expert at exporting inflation. This riddle if argued as reasonable makes the USA the double loser. Someone help me out- there, I'm confused. Another smacks me as a person hopeful of the demise of the USA economy. Not that as Shultz stated without good or reasonable cause. Or are we simply at a juncture in World history that will see the American/West Empire go the way of all other historical empires ( Romans etc ) . Has the USA economy,"Printin Clinton" and his ilk reached the bottom culturally, economically and morally? Maybe no matter what the motives of the USA are the World has had a gut full of her arrogance and her supposed "New World Order" Could Another simply be a spokes person for those of similiar "Thoughts". "Thoughts" that speak as though this ( his/their ) game has a time frame? Help me here fellow Kitcoites I am over my head.~~~~~~ dizzy!

Stated by the our Lord many years ago "The World loves it's own."
Clinton and the media are not something modern and fresh they are merely relics from ancient Sodom.

My goodness man, what did some American or the US ever do to you that you are so bitter? I know this will set you off and there goes the bandwidth, Bart. ;- )

I support the majority of Haggis's opinions re USA. The arrogance of might and power breeds corruption on a global scale. The words "American Culture" are a contradiction of terms. It is a brave voice indeed that can boldly speak what he/she thinks is correct. Is it not the American way, freedom of speech? Having said all of that there are probably 90% of the USA citizens that are wonderful people, but unfortunatly they are the uninformed. Ever watch American television? World news is non existent unless the US troops are somewhere "kicken butt" or Oprah is interviewing someone overseas. The export of the American culture has a very bad smell. Especially the "modern" material valuless culture.

To All -

I believe we should begin to take this RSA cricket team

seriously. Never mind gold.

To All -

I believe we should begin to take this RSA cricket team

seriously. Never mind gold.

Are you on line?

Are the talented cricket players paid in the eight figure range like the NFL and NBA guys? Or do they play for the sport of it?

So I'll just talk to myself about my inner feelings or.....maybe what I heard last night...or better yet....what I heard last night as it relates to comments posted on Kitco last night...yea, that's it!

Haggis...regarding the American icon conflict of John "By God" Wayne and Michael Jackson...I can report to you the battle has been lost. I listened to a surgeon discussion last night about the removal technique required to extract an eight pound sphere from a young man's rectum. I don't know if the fellow slipped and fell at the bowling alley or what? Could be a new sport...Buttball? Hell I don't know...none of my bizwhacks. All I know is, The Duke is Dead.

The doctor also spoke of a middle- aged Greek who required knee surgery. The patient needed a new knee, presumably due to the fact he had a 14 inch wobbley. Now that I know this, I have now changed my handle ( no pun intended ) to STUDIOPOLUS.XL. Carol, Alice, Michael....are you there?

I see many, far too many of our league, dove into the fathomless waters of the ANOTHER SEA, last night. I observed drownings. Life above the water line is better...albeit, not much. It is very dark and insidious in the depths of the ANOTHER SEA....life, as we know it, doesn't exist there.

It sounds like Haggis may be off- line at present but I'll reluctantly put my two cents worth in. I am an American and am grateful to be the benificary of all that has been made possible by the efforts of so many great people over the years. But, it does seem clear to me that we are a culture at great risk. As a culture we are indulgent, insensitive, arrogant, and most fearful to me, becoming amoral. I don't mind hearing the perspectives of others concerning us. It is true that the same problems exist in many others but the degree to which we as a society have drifted from the principles of integrity, fairness and hard work should be a major concern to us all.

What does all this have to do with the price of gold? Time may tell.

I appreciate your musings. You do much better at freely expressing that which is amiss among us. Our ramblings may be a bother to others later as they have to pass over this - but these are things that are a grave concern. I am a physician working in Emergency Medicine at "have seen it all" ( although an 'eight pound sphere' ) is a bit more than I've found "up there". It is rather pathetic to see what our people will do to entertain themselves. Surely the musings of Kitcoites should be more "stimulating" than that ( much less easier on one's capacity to be "ano- retentive" as some here seem to be ) .

Good night

THE END OF THE LINE... for the Silver Lease CON

Ted Butler is the worlds foremost expert in nuances, intricacies and ramifications of GOLD & SILVER LEASES. Many months ago he exposed the Central Banks ill use of Gold Leasing Operations. Now he shares his insightful observations regarding the Silver Loan CON.

And don't be surprised with future tactics intended to derail
what promises to be a very long and sharp price UPWARD spiral for silver.

...there is no way that the vast bulk of silver loaned can ever be returned.

That was then, this is now - the silver lease CON is over! Here's
why: the report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

For StudioR - US sports figures are paid so much

that Ive gone off US sports altogether.

The range for a South African cricketer would be

from a low of about 60,000 US$/year to a high of

about 120,000 in the case of Cronje ( the captain ) for

a season's contract. So they retain the concept of

team spirit and playing for national pride - US sport

lost this ages ago - they now provide their audience

with giant egos, swollen wallets, and stunted brains.

There is such as thing as making too much money.

One day cricket is a great game - and the Aussie's

Shane Warne is one of the most dominating athletes Ive

seen in any sport.

Another thing that cricket has is sportsmanship, whereby

these guys can play against each other all and look forward

to enjoying a beer together after the match - Marvellous

Eggsactly. Lack of leadership, pure and simple....good people don't want to be shot at so they stay in their houses, blinds closed and keep their mouths shut....fearing the reprisals of having opinion. An organization is a reflection of it's leader...our leader is Bill Clinton. It is simply getting worse each day...we need to speak up, take up arms and attack complacency....we have a dire future if we remain idle for much longer.

You hit on a favorite theme of mine with the Duke.

It's role models from films. I remember those great

US actor from the past. Tracey, Bogart, Cagney, Cooper,

the duke. Now the BEST would be DeNiro or Pacino.

Now who would you want to call on if you needed back

up?? - Tom Cruise ?? - Not me thanks

Even the bad guys from the past like Jack Palance

had more integrity than the good guys do today.

Maybe Jack Nicolson ( great as he is ) was a watershed.

Suddenly things started to become ambiguous. and its

been downhill since -

Same in other areas - Hemmingway or Faulkner before

- Updike and Theroux today. The talent's still there

but the attitude has shifted.

( but cormac mcCarthy's still pretty good - bit of a

throwback )

Maybe the eight pound sphere is a symbol of things to

come.

My wife, Lini, is a sports fanatic. I like a touch of college sports now and then. I can not tolerate professional players as a group.
I know we would enjoy cricket as you describe...Lini told me yesterday that she read that Joe Paterno just gave Penn State $4,000,000 back for scholarships and such. Joe Paterno for President. Now there's a fellow I can respect! My nephew plays soccer at Penn State...he says they have their sports program under control.

For Studio R and wife
I was raised on US sports - the Giants and the Dodgers
- Jim Brown versus Sam Huff - Chuck Benarik creaming
Frank Gifford. Dimaggio vs Ted Williams.
Carmine Basilio - Suger Ray - La Motta - Archie Moore -
The Knicks vs the Celtics
Sports had fantastic drama and impact then. I dont
know what happened - but something did.

For Studio R and wife

I was raised on US sports - the Giants and the Dodgers

- Jim Brown versus Sam Huff - Chuck Benarik creaming

Frank Gifford. Dimaggio vs Ted Williams.

Carmine Basilio - Suger Ray - La Motta - Archie Moore -

The Knicks vs the Celtics

Sports had fantastic drama and impact then. I dont

know what happened - but something did.

And my sphere shines in the light of day to beheld. Is it a coincidence that the words "gold" and "standard" are bonded together? Standard is a strong and good word....we need to hear and use it more.
I am very fortunate, and thankful, to have John Wayne memorbilia throughout my house. We have a small statue of the Duke that was given me by a partner...I have him placed on a pedestal above all.
When I was a kid, I sat between him and my father at a Hereford cattle auction. He was at Hereford Heaven to buy a bull for his Red River Ranch. Also, got to go there and meet his old partner Shorty Johnson...he was a character! Mr. Wayne was not there...but "Shorty"
was a chip off his partner's block. I cherish those moments.

I've got to go...but before I forget it...Lini has bought me several John Wayne things from the Franklin Mint that are wonderful. You may already know about these things but they mint a beautiful John Wayne coin in bronze. And they have a larger version of it that can be used as a paperweight, etc.. I had one of the larger ones mounted in walnut and gave it to a friend that was battling cancer. He really did admire it. I can get the poop on this stuff to you if you would like that.

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 06:17
Junior ( @ ANOTHER ) ID#248180:

Not to worry it is over most people's head including mine. I look at his postings and the comments it generates as food for thought ( gourmet food at that ) .

Assumptions and interpretations: ( IMHO )

I think that the world of oil will not go totally to the oil/gold exchange that ANOTHER discusses. Not all countries hunger for gold in the same way as Middle Eastern countries. So Venezuela could work deals that sell oil under different algorithms. Even the key Middle Eastern country would have oil for sale in quantities to folks without gold, BUT the price would not be as favorable. UNLESS, the buyer had something the seller valued ... of course there is gold. BUT I assume that even Middle Eastern folks would accept other algorithms also. The key is that the currency exchange ( the deal ) would have to have something of VALUE linked to the fiat currency. Maybe diamonds, opals, lumber, ... maybe a pipeline project ( of course barter would be accepted ) ....

The baseline I see from ANOTHER's comments set the final stage for fiat currency, as we know it today. I believe that ANOTHER's thoughts spell the death of the U.S. dollar as we know it today.

The ECu ( and possibly the Asian common currency that SDRer referred to ) would be much preferred especially if the founding father's put a stronger link to gold than we have seen in the recent past. Possibly the SDR is set to step in and be used as a medium of exchange as SDRer has suggested. But in any case, the oil states no longer are interested in the sham of the U.S. dollar continuing.

ANOTHER doesn't seem to want to see the demise of the U.S. and its economy, but rather much more interested in continuing international trade. He sees the flaws in the existing fiat currencies and notes that if the situation is not repaired international trade and thus the world will suffer. ANOTHER is deeply interested in a smooth transition. He wants the U.S. and all countries to do well in the new situation.

Maybe this is the reason he has come to post and spread his THOUGHTS around the world. Inform the people and the people will prepare, spread the word, and put pressure on their governments. Perhaps the better prepared the people are the more successful the transition will be.


Junior this is some of my impressions and views of ANOTHER's posts. Hope it helps some.


ANOTHER seems to believe that a NEW gold backed currency will be an assets to the world. ( gold/oil backed currency to be specific ) . I tend to agree.

Panda: Nothin could incite me....ROR: Get a life....EB: 'They' got lucky.....

Could, would someone pls explain how comex silver inventories can go up- down by hundred of thousands of ounces in a day when there are no deliverable contracts in the delivery period on that particular date? While not on the subject but in full agreement with oldman, if you further adjust the murder figures to eliminate those caused by serial mass murders ( faggots in most every case ) the Americans of European descent rate would look even better.

http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/ANOTHER3.html
ANOTHER updated plus a couple of old ones I found.

Reading this 3 or 4 times while I was editing was interesting.
Certain words, phrases, concepts contain clues.
Some of the concepts are moving towards fruition.
Seems to me that there is X% of truth ( wisdom )
In everything one reads on Kitco.

Ted Butler's piece at Gold Eagle is important not because it talks about leasing, which even Aunt Susie knows about by now, but because it addresses the issue of credit worthiness of the silver ( and by extension, gold ) borrowers.

Presumably folks who borrow and sell gold lent to the market by central banks are of the most impeccable credit worthiness. They must either have a gold mine which the engineers and banks have deemed capable of produing the gold required to pay back the loan and/or must be so financially strong ( and have their asses covered so well with derivatives ) that their is no possibility of non- performance.

And I am sure that the early loans in the mid to late 1980's were so guaranteed and structured. But how have the borrowers fared since? Are they still as golden? That is one issue.

The other issue, which I discussed several years ago in GFL and here, is the bandwagon effect. At the big FT annual gold confeenc in Venice three years ago there was a feeding frenzy of "facilitators" from all the big houses ( Morgan, Merrill, Goldman, etc ) crawling all over the smaller CB's explaining the virtues of leasing.

Central Bankers are, I am told, human beings, and are therefore subject to the same financial stampedes as Moms and Pops. What has happened is the same thing that has happened in exotic derivatives "based" on other market items. Namely the also- rans and late comers to the party are not as sophisticated ( as lessors ) and are more greedy and pushy ( as facilitators and borrowers ) . [Have you seen the FIASCO book?]

It is most likely- - unless human nature has changed drastically in the past ten years without our knowing it, both that the passage of time has caused originally credit- worthy ( gold- worthy ) borrowers to become less so, AND that newer borrowers and the deals they got are less gold- worthy to start with.

Does the CFTC pending investigation of silver indicate some panic on the part of the me- too shorts and/or the lessors, as Butler suggests? Are the shorts trying to do a replay of what Dr. Hernry Jarecki of the Comex Silver Committee did to the Hunt's with the full connivance of the FED and the short dealers and banks? Are some cenral banks beginning to wonder whether they will get back their silver and gold after leasing it for 2% per annum to increase cash flow for their owners in a "risk free" deal?

If so, many heads will roll and silver and gold bars fly. I won't bore you with the enormity of the short positions in physical gold, naked options, futures, and paper stuff. They have been there for years and have increased as the calendar changes.

Many have gone broke picking the bottom in metals, and I ain't gonna do it. But if the markets in general get a whiff of of what I call "de- disinflation" or even a hint that the FED might ease to "assist" Asia or slow down the dollar, it could well be a Red ( or Gold ) Alert as in 1979- 80.

I have posted ( for download ) an Adobe Acrobat file with a bit on the "De- disinflation" idea as well as some charts of potential interest. The text and charts will be revised later today.

http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/floor/7953

After a nights sleep I still say the ANOTHER is trying to get readers to buy gold. Why? Because he wishes to sell. As for the US/Canada chatter I have noted it on several SI sites as well.

( historically speaking ) of the Drudge Report mentioned earlier?

Me thinks a key to this game is the worlds feelings about gold. ANOTHER stated that the west values gold for NOT at this time. OF course, this thought doesn't set well on this bb, BUT I think we must admit that most the world DOES NOT care for gold. In the U.S. most folks would rather have a year's supply of Burger King's Fries than 10 ounces of gold.

So if a country ( the right country ) said, work in an ounce of gold and we will give you the deal of a lifetime ... . Yes I think they would be taken up on it. It would be cheaper and easier than fighting a war.

Of course, oil would still trade in other areas of the world for different prices. BUT the "CHEAP" oil would go to those with the gold.
Yes, I could imagine this senario.

Yes, I can imagine Bill and Hillary getting on the TV and informing the gradeful public that they have found a way to further lower inflation and obtain cheap oil.

ANOTHER, my bigger worry is for those of us ( little geese ) that hold some gold bullion ( for whatever reason ) . Would we be able to keep it? Would we be able to sell it? Would we be able to move it to a new homeland?

ANOTHER, would the powers of gold be promoted around the world or surpressed for the little ones such as I.

http://www.gold- eagle.com/greenspan011098.html

A.Goose: Junior@ANOTHER

Your interpretation of ANOTHERs meaning is very thought provoking - especially your ending sentence: ANOTHER seems to believe that a NEW gold backed currency will be an assets to the world. ( gold/oil backed currency to be specific ) . I tend to agree.

I too tend to agree... and we are in excellent company, as Alan Greenspan ALSO AGREED, at least in 1981 before becoming Fed Chairman. At that time he was a overt advocator of the Gold Standard.

I say the following ONLY HALF IN JEST, but could ANOTHER really be Alan Greenspan?!

A re- read of Alan Greenspan, private Economic Consultant & GOLD STANDARD ADVOCATE ( circa 1981 ) , might be prophetically interesting and relevant in light of ANOTHERs somewhat cryptic messages.

Private citizen Greenspans verbatim comments as published in the Wall Street Journal may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Pegasus in deep. SHE who runs Royal Oak sold some of her shares recently eh. Here is why:

Saturday, January 17, 1998

Metals firms do hard time

Pegasus Gold declares bankruptcy, Royal Oak has a near miss

By PETER KENNEDY
Vancouver Bureau The Financial Post
Once a pioneer in low- cost gold mining, Pegasus Gold Inc. filed for voluntary
reorganization under U.S. bankruptcy laws in Reno, Nev., Friday with debts of
US$213 million.
Pegasus is the latest in a string of producers brought to their knees by weak bullion
prices, which have recently tumbled to 18 1/2- year lows.
While bullion rose US$4.70 to US$290.60 an ounce in New York Friday, industry
watchers said there are bound to be more casualties in the gold mining business.
"There are quite a few companies out there with disturbing balance sheets and no
real earnings,'' said Murray Pollitt of Toronto investment firm Pollitt & Co. Ltd.
Royal Oak Mines Inc. was rescued from the brink of insolvency Friday after its
bondholders agreed to let it tap a US$44- million debt
financing. ( Both Pegasus and Royal Oak have head
offices in Washington state. )
Among other companies being watched are Echo Bay
Mines Ltd., William Resources Inc. and TVX Gold
Inc.
"The [gold] industry is in real difficulty,'' Pollitt said.
Pegasus, which has 120 days to file its restructuring
plan, filed for protection after being pressed by a
syndicate of 11 banks to accelerate all amounts
payable under a US$68- million revolving credit
facility.
Its other liabilities include US$14 million in trade debt, US$115 million of 6.25%
convertible subordinated notes due 2002, and US$16 million in foreign currency
losses.
Trading in the stock was halted Friday. After it resumed, the shares ( PGU/TSE )
tumbled 75 to close at 11 on volume of 222,100. Its 52- week high is $11.95.
During a conference call Friday, Pegasus chief executive Werner Nennecker said
the company would operate its three U.S. mines while talks with key lenders
continue.
"The banks have not issued a demand for repayment,'' said Nennecker, who
blamed low gold prices for Pegasus's problems.
After recently shutting its Mount Todd gold mine in Australia and collapsing its
gold hedging contracts, Pegasus couldn't generate sufficient cash flow to service its
debt and continue operations, he said.
Analysts weren't surprised see Pegasus file for bankruptcy.
Tony Sutton- Pratt of HSBC James Capel in Toronto said he "nearly choked''
when Pegasus reported a huge loss for the third quarter ended Sept. 30, 1997 -
US$433 million ( US$10.47 a share ) on revenue of US$78 million.
Those third- quarter results included a US$353.3- million writedown stemming from
the closure of Mount Todd.
In the first nine months of 1997, Pegasus produced 353,050 ounces of gold. But
costs of US$417 an ounce made its operations unprofitable.
"Pegasus didn't have the asset base to pay back its debt once Mount Todd had
gone,'' said Sutton- Pratt.
Nennecker said an investment bank has been retained to seek potential buyers for
Pegasus. But analysts said interested parties may shy away because of the
company's heavy environmental liabilities.
Meanwhile, Pegasus will decide within two weeks whether to shut down its
high- cost Florida Canyon mine in Nevada.
If the mine remains open, the company could produce about 250,000 ounces of
gold this year, Nennecker said.

LAST WEEK'S STRENGTH IN ASIA IS JUST A MIRAGE... the fatal illness is still present.

NEW YEARS MUSINGS: More Tears Than Joy

John Kutyn is undoubtedly one of last years most brilliant and perceptive analysts on the Domino Effect sweeping through Southeast Asia. His insightful take on currency chaos and stock market turmoil paint a grim picture of what the new year holds for the countries of that area... indeed what the ramifications are for the rest of the world. Following are a few of his random thoughts on the region. Additionally, he shares his opinion of the precarious condition of the Japanese Banking System, and what we might brace ourselves for in 1998.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 10:11
vronsky ( http://www.gold- eagle.com/greenspan011098.html ) ID#427357:

Thanks for the kind words. It is intriguing to think of ANOTHER as A.G. Hmmmmmmmmm.



To all:
P.S. the 10:00am post of mine was posted last night. I have no idea how it showed up this morning. I did not repost it. Second time this magic reposting has happened to me. ?????

I take it as a given that anyone can ask whatever they please for a product, but they can't set the price unless they have the market cornered. Suppose some producer of oil asks for some amount of gold for each barrel of oil. First question: will the gold portion of the asking price ( when translated to dollars ) be competitive with other willing sellers of oil in dollars? If yes, then the seller will be able to gather gold. If no, then he will sit on his oil.

Second question: If yes is the answer to Q1, will the price of gold in dollars move up to make the answer to Q1 change to "no"? If yes, then he will sit on his oil. If no, then he will continue to gather gold at a low price.

Conclusion: Free markets work

A.Goose
But he could also be Saddam.
He knows what the price of oil and gold will do,
When he presses a few buttons.

One historical addendum to the previous posts about zenophobia, Japan, US et cetera. The primitive tribesmen who settled Japan some dim Ice Age summer were Caucasian. The remnent of their tribe is the "Hairy" Anu people who live a marginal exisatnce now in remote areas of some of the northern Japanese archipelego. The moral of this story ( directed primarily at our New Zealand and Australian neighbors ) is that those who beat their swords into plowshares are destined to plow for those who don't. IMHO

In keeping with the need to tie this in with gold, I might mention that there is an alloy consisting of 80% palladium and 20% gold, which can be heat treated then work hardened to make excellent knife blades; both springy and tough, blades of this alloy can hold an edge like good carbon steel. IMHO

currencies. Keep you're eyes on the currencies. Inflation, deflation, gold for oil, ANOTHER, etc. are all good for discussion. The answer is in the currencies... Question; Whose promise to pay is better than anyone elses? ( Rhetorical. ) What backs up that promise? How will that promise be made good on? Markets closed on Monday in the U.S. for new holiday.

Ted - - Good morning! More or less back on- line.

IDT - - I know about EEO all to well. Just don't be accused of anything by a protected group ( if you're a white male ) , else you'll truely discover the point of all this crap. ( In other words, White Males of European descent are the scourge of the earth, and a final solution must be found. )

What If the Dollar Just Keeps Rising?

Nationally syndicated market analyst, Rick Ackerman, shares his insights about the adverse strength of the greenback.

Business couldn't be better, consumers are as confident as they've been in years, the dollar is king and interest rates are bouncing near multi- year lows.

Not much for U.S. investors to worry about, right?

THINK AGAIN. That strong dollar, of all things, is threatening to
blight the rosy picture by destabilizing financial markets and
constricting global trade. Moreover, there is no apparent way to
stop it. WHAT ARE THE DIRE RAMIFICATIONS?

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 10:46
sharefin ( Who could it be now? ) ID#284255:

Now that would be a rip. Very funny.

Only thing is that I would be upset to find out that Saddam was that intelligent.

I am pained by what is happening to the people of Iraq. I think it does the U.S. no honor to inflict such pain on so many to punish so few. Just kill the guy and 2 or 300 hundred people of power, that would be more just and kind. Ooooops off topic.

I saw a U.S. dollar index chart last night that went back to the mid 80's. ( I think that's when this index started. ) The peak appears to have been about 120 ( about when the index started ) , then all down hill until the recent ( ~'92- '93 to present ) run up.

BBML..............

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 11:02
panda ( A.Goose ) ID#30116:

Thanks panda. That information would make me wonder if we are topping out, getting ready for a down move. The world situation would support such a continuing at this time. If that trend ( downward ) continues, gold will be rewarded.

January 18, 1998

JAPAN IS WORLD'S SICKEST ECONOMY

BANGKOK, Jan 18 ( Reuters ) - Japan is the sickest economy in the world, leading U.S. economist Lester Thurow said in an interview published on Sunday in Thailand's The Nation.
 "It ( Japan ) isn't the poorest, but it is the sickest. It is the sickest because we don't yet know if the South Korean government is good at cleaning up the mess, we don't yet know if the Thai government is good at cleaning up the mess," the newspaper quoted Thurow, economics professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as saying.
 South Korea, Thailand and Indonesia have received emergency financial aid under International Monetary Fund- led reform packages.
 Thurow said the Japanese had a crash in 1990 which was bigger than the stock market crash in the United States in 1929. Seven years later they were still in a mess.
 "It is because they are partly disoriented. They find it hard to do new things because it is difficult to get a consensus in Japan, and they think they ought to make decisions by consensus. The fact of the matter is, seven years later they have made no progress, and if you let things slag long they get sicker," Thurow said.
 Thurow said he did not think China would become the next target to fall after economic turmoil had hit several Asian countries, but China's growth rate was going to slow down.
 "Everybody in this part of the world has a problem when China starts to play the game. For example, compared to Southeast Asia, China is cheaper, better educated and has a bigger internal market. If I'm Indonesia I've got a real problem playing the game against China because I can either play it with lower wages or better educated people," Thurow said.
 - - Bangkok newsroom ( 662 ) 652- 0642

http://www.intersurf.com/~vor/usd.html

If Psycho James Carville is the best talking head Clinton has to defend him, the Presidential doomsday is at hand.....

January 18, 1998

Ex Nomura executives held for bribes say reports

TOKYO ( Reuters ) - Two former executives of Nomura Securities Co. Ltd. and a government finance official were arrested Sunday on charges that they took part in bribery, Japanese media reported.
 The incident is a new setback for Nomura, which has just been allowed to resume full operations after a previous scandal involving payoffs to a racketeer.
 The reports, on the NHK television network and Kyodo news service, said the Tokyo Public Prosecutors Office apprehended Takehiko Isaka, now director in charge of accounting at the state- run Japan Highway Public Corp.
 They said Naotaka Murasumi, a former Nomura vice president, and Isao Teranishi, a former Nomura managing director, were also arrested on suspicion of giving bribes to Isaka.
 Prosecutors said they believe Isaka received bribes between July 1994 and December 1995 in exchange for helping Nomura become lead underwriter for the corporation's foreign bonds.
 They said Isaka was wined, dined on 41 occasions.
 The highway corporation is under the control of the Construction Ministry and operates a vast network of expressways across Japan.
 Nomura, Japan's largest brokerage, was the first firm last year to be charged with making payments to a corporate racketeer in exchange for his silence at annual shareholder meetings.
 The scandal later spread to all of Japan's big four brokerages as well as a major bank.


RYO CEO M. Witte sold her shares because of a large margin call when the shares crashed in Dec. This makes sense as a margin call requires you bring your balance all the way back to the initial margin level. I believe she was on margin rather than sell the stock to pay a large tax bill. The reason was stock rights which vested and results in a huge tax liability even though the stock is not sold. To meet this liability I believe she margined her stock at around 3 never imagining that it would go to one. Clearly, this was a forced sale.

Graham Eacott of RYO indicated that the companiy's two operating mines Giant and Timmins are currently positive cash flowing contrary to the impression in the FP.

"SILVER WILL GO TO $18 per oz ONCE THIS RALLY GETS GOING WITH A LITTLE HESITATION AT 10- 12 per oz.".......MARTIN ARMSTRONG MAY 14,1997 THIS IS THE GUY WHO HAS BEEN HIRED BY SOMEONE TO INVESTIGATE SILVER MANIPULATION
AND NOW SAYS IT COULD PLUNGE TO 3.....HMMMMM

HIS MINIMUM TARGET FOR GOLD IS 1200 by 2003 HIS MORE LIKELY IS 4000- 5000 PER OZ. MAXIMUM TARGET IS 10000 PER OZ. all by 2003.
HE STATED THE METALS BULL WILL BEGIN IN JUNE 1998 and SAID APPROX $280 would be the low for Gold. Martin Armstrong May 14, 1997.


JAMES
WHERE ARE YOU.. I wouldnt sell short those silver stocks yet.

Me thinks a key to this game is the worlds feelings about gold. ANOTHER stated that the west values gold for NOT at this time. OF course, this thought doesn't set well on this bb, BUT I think we must admit that most the world DOES NOT care for gold. In the U.S. most folks would rather have a year's supply of Burger King's Fries than 10 ounces of gold.

So if a country ( the right country ) said, work in an ounce of gold and we will give you the deal of a lifetime ... . Yes I think they would be taken up on it. It would be cheaper and easier than fighting a war.

Of course, oil would still trade in other areas of the world for different prices. BUT the "CHEAP" oil would go to those with the gold.
Yes, I could imagine this senario.

Yes, I can imagine Bill and Hillary getting on the TV and informing the gradeful public that they have found a way to further lower inflation and obtain cheap oil.

ANOTHER, my bigger worry is for those of us ( little geese ) that hold some gold bullion ( for whatever reason ) . Would we be able to keep it? Would we be able to sell it? Would we be able to move it to a new homeland?

ANOTHER, would the powers of gold be promoted around the world or surpressed for the little ones such as I.

Mozel @05:04: Absolutely terrific. You continue to provide new and different ways of looking at current events. For those of us who suffer from congenital laziness, you are providing an easy avenue to greater understanding, in a broader sense. Many thanks and please continue.

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 11:15
Carl ( panda and A Goose, You might take a look at this chart of the dollar index ) ID#333131:

Thanks Carl. The chart definitely let us know the dollar is heading down. This is what the aden sister's were looking for in December. The bigger qustion is if it is going to bounce at the lower band or drive through it.

Sorry folks. The 11:26 and 10:00 am are a mystery to me. I have rebooted my system, in case it has anything to do with these repostings. Strange.

BBL

No- dollar pact

KL and Jakarta to trade using ringgit and rupiah

JAKARTA: Malaysia and Indonesia agreed yesterday to explore ways to boost bilateral trade

without using hard currencies in order to cope with a shortage of US dollars, said Prime

Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad.

"We think that there is a need for us to increase the trade between our two countries," Dr

Mahathir said after a 90- minute meeting here with President Suharto, two days after Indonesia

announced sweeping reforms under a new deal with the International Monetary Fund.

"Since we lack US dollars, we should think of ways to further enhance trade without using

foreign currencies and instead, use our own currencies like Indonesia using the rupiah and

Malaysia the ringgit," he said.

Indonesia is undertaking austerity measures as part of an IMF rescue program amounting to

more than US$40bil.

Malaysia has also been affected by the currency crisis ravaging Southeast Asia since the middle

of last year but pledged US$1bil in loans as part of the bailout.

Suharto was unable to attend the Asean summit hosted by Dr Mahathir last month during which

the Heads of Government of member nations agreed to explore ways of trading using their

own currencies or barter arrangements.

Dr Mahathir said one of the reasons for his visit was to brief Suhartoon the results of the

summit.

"Besides, I would also like to hear from President Suharto himself on matters affecting the

economy in Indonesia," he added.

Asked whether the economic crisis in Indonesia would have an effect on security in Malaysia,

Dr Mahathir said:

"We always feel that neighbours would do better if they are better- off. We believe in

prospering our neighbours because neighbours who are having problems, of course, there will

always be a spill- over ( effect ) . What they call contagion, nowadays."

Dr Mahathir also said Malaysia had no plans to carry out a mass repatriation of Indonesian

workers.

"We're not really going to expel them but we have to warn people that we have no more jobs,"

Dr Mahathir said, indicating that Indonesian workers could be shifted to the plantation sector

instead of less active industries like construction.

Malaysia has almost two million foreign workers and indicated that some of them might have to

return home because of the slowdown in its economy. - - Agencies.

Don't have the chance to read every Kitco post from day to day, but I
wonder why no one's given you a serious rebuttal on your repeated post
on folks around the world no longer valuing gold. Are you just being
facetious or what?

Sure, we value Burger king fries more than gold. That's why we wrap them
around our ring fingers when we get married. Yep. And that's why the
50th anniversary is the "Burger King fries" Anniversary.

The current price of gold comes from a lot of different factors, as this
site is continually exploring, but lack of value in people's eyes isn't one of them.

Professional money managers and "financial planners", most of whom are too young to remember the 1970's, and certainly don't understand problems associated with fiat money. They didn't get exposed to these ideas in school and they weren't part of the public forum in their adult lives. They're clueless. Others, who are old enough to know better, have been swept away in the great paper speculation.

I don't even know how to approach this problem.

Does anyone have the most recent listing of holdings of BLPMX. Last march 97
TVX was listed at 10% .

I sit here and listen and I try to keep my cool. I hear U.S. bashing from all sides, much of it coming from those who are placing that steak on their plates from the good old US of A, while toasting their bread from the grains grown on U.S. soil. This list could go on forever, but it's useless to debate such issues.
We in the U.S. are composed of many different backgrounds, races and cultural heritages. This sometimes creates problems, in as much, that as countries do not get along, when people from many countries are thrown together there will be clashes due to these differences. Some say this is our greatest weakness, I say it is our greatest asset. We as americans can learn from one another, and beleive me, we are learning.
Remember this, no country on the face of God's green earth is as capable of being self supporting as the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Talk of oil, talk of any thing you wish, but when it comes to the things
that support life, food, fiber,factories, and technology, the U. S. has no equal. Is oil important? Yes, at this time it is. Does the technolgy exist to make it unimportant? Most likely it does. When might this happen?. As soon as the financial gains are outweighed by the necessity for freedom.
CAUTION!!! Do not underestimate America or her people, they are tenacious and will unite with a vengeance if threatened. Government officials are not the norm but the exception , as, I suspect, is the case in most countries.
And by the way, gold will be 320 by the end of February!!!!

All: I was thinking about ANOTHER post - what kind of person he/she is and what are the motives to make these post on Kitco. It can be
1. Very powerful person ( like it was almost suggested in Vronsky post - ANOTHER is AG ) , want to share his/her incites about market situation without being recognized
2. Someone is willing to influence gold price, for whatever reason
3. Novelists exercise - was already suggested by somebody here
4. Some person looks for a fame in a circle of intelligent people ( like most of Kitco population ) , enjoy it
Before making any conclusions let us consider this. First of all, he/she can attract attention. Even my ( and others ) "he/she" gives a bit of mystery. Bit of conspiracy smoke. This site is mostly populated by goldbugs - right thing to do is to say that real gold value is sky high, at least 10 times more then on a tape. Maybe more. Interesting, isnt it? Look, how it was played yesterday: short message - I am coming, I am going to tell you the truth And what a respond - "My coffee is ready", "Now I dont have to search all the messages to find out, where there new post of ANOTHER or not", etc., etc, What follow - a delay. Good timing - to keep everyone hot and right before disappointment and loosing interest. Good play. What is in the message - about the same as before, nothing really new. Some ironic ( yes, already ) respond - away, no argue - that damages image
Now lets re- read points above.
1. Very powerful person - I do not think so. I saw many of them. Mostly they are very busy people with practically no free time. And when it happened to have some - there are plenty of other things to do - like children or grand- children, hobby, or simply rest in a way one likes. Coming back again and again to some Internet chat with the same idea - what for?
2. It might be. To rise it. Lets consider someone who made a bet on gold and is loosing now. Intelligence and luck often goes apart. May be. Besides Kitco posters there are a lot of lurkers, and many of both share their views with other people. More people buy, higher the price. But still, prices are something, that individuals can not really influence. At least in most cases.
3. That might be, that ANOTHER is a novelist. But in that case why to continue to play the same card for such a long time? Not enough imagination to create something new and test it here?
4. Fame. Better then Gold. Thats my choice of explanation.

ANOTHER: time to invent something new or you are going to loose attention.

( tongue- in- cheek thingy ) We're gonna need another gold piece.

While I look down my nose at any and all career politicians ( no matter what their professed stripe ) , and Glenn has some 24 years in the Senate now I think, the man has provided some REAL service to this country in the form of 150 air missions during WWII/Korea and riding atop a giant exploding bullet named Friendship 7. I think those things in themselves make him qualified for this trip. I agree that they should drop the facade of research and call it like it is: a joy ride for an old man.

Tolerant1: Put me on the list of contributors towards the lucky gold piece. And please help me start a campaign to get Yeager signed on as the pilot.

Duly noted. Yeager as the Pilot, yikes!

Anybody have thoughts on Canyon Resources?

I finally found the link I was looking for on TNX for people that were looking for a few different reads on them. This link provides four or five differing views.

http://www.futuresuperstock.com/stock371.htm

This comment by Tol1 is worth repeating.....

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 01:29

tolerant1 ( Hmmmm ) ID#31868:

Violence in America, hmmmm. Let us go to India, China, Africa, and many other

places. Violence goes hand in hand with all those that fell out of the trees and walk

upright.

To pretend that America is violent while the rest of the world claims some sort of

civility is a cruel abandonment of any knowledge of history.

We are all monkees in progress, stop wiping your sleeves on some sense of

pretentious, make believe nobility. None walk upon a pristine path, none.

And this comment by Earl the Pearl is worth refuting:

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 01:44

Earl ( @violence. ) ID#227238:

T1: Of course it's the very nature of the beast. But you would be hard pressed to find

another culture where violence is considered almost a spectator sport. If it becomes the

dominant theme in popular entertainment, one must conclude that a problem exists.

Hmmmmmmm...Earl......what of the Romans....just to name ONE...there are countless others if you just look back, no?? Violence has been a spectator sport *since* we fell outta the tree.....do not kid yourself or others, just ask Julius next time you see him....

...go gold

away



should something go awry with Glenn on board. NASA would be shot, buried, and never more resurrected for eternity.

THE END OF THE LINE... for the Silver Lease CON

Ted Butler is the worlds foremost expert in nuances, intricacies and ramifications of GOLD & SILVER LEASES. Many months ago he exposed the Central Banks ill use of Gold Leasing Operations. Now he shares his insightful observations regarding the Silver Loan CON.

And don't be surprised with future tactics intended to derail
what promises to be a very long and sharp price UPWARD spiral for silver.

...there is no way that the vast bulk of silver loaned can ever be returned.

That was then, this is now - the silver lease CON is over! Here's
why: the report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

Delphy - complete agreement. It also tells you something about current state of affair among goldbugs. Long bear market did its damage and most will accept any theory ( so more if it is enclosed in a shroud of mystery, conspiracy, and indication of "insider" information ) indicating movement of gold ( so more if it indicates upward move )

of money. Pure and simple, it is too expensive to force countries to do what one might want. If the US couldn't negotiate with oil producing countries, they would have to get their oil from Texas or Alaska.

Go we must. Sacrifice has always been part of the process. There are risks and I am sure the crew is well aware of them. Hence the lucky gold piece.

Staying on Earth would be the death of our species.

it's purely philosophical. I agree that one of mankinds' greatest adventures would be to colonize another planet ( such as Mars or the Moon ) . After all, no other Earthly organism has done it, have they?
However, another great frontier to explore and "improve" upon is the human heart ( social, spiritual ) . We have a LONG way to go on that one, don't you think?
One must also be careful about lending credence to any UFO or alien ideas. So far, the evidence is sketchy at best.......
IMHO

EB: I speaking of contemporary cultures. I thought that was obvious. Obviously not.....But since you bring up the Roman spectacles; I would submit that if we had the money for a great national colliseum, we could easily give the Romans a run for their money. ......Who knows? Given the potential future need for public distraction; for the price of one more senate office building we could have such place to celebrate blood sports. ...... T'would be worth it, if the grand opening were celebrated with the sacrifice of 535 members of congress.

I agree that there are many things right here on Earth that need improvement. It is however my contention that we must go to space and give the human race a singular goal in the process.

To see the wonder in the eyes of the world during the recent mission to Mars. Our need for safe, efficient energy. Solar Power Satellites could be up and working now if we had the resolve and leadership.

I am not thinking of UFOs, I am thinking of another stage in our development. The journey into space and beyond would be a powerful unifying, healthy exercise for everyone around the globe.

Instead of a common enemy, a common goal, replace the negative with the positive and fabulous things can occur.

I sat out this question for some time, it now begs to be answered:

"What's with this whole ANOTHER guy thingie?"

Seems to me this guy set the hook firmly in the collective Kitco mouth a few months ago and has done little but loosen the drag occasionally to let rest run with it. I will congratulate ANOTHER on one thing though, he has the highest response to post ratio since Big Trader.

Sounds like a great dream. Certainly the improvements you suggest are needed, but mankind has to consider the cost, and be willing to pay it. We could have colonized the moon already if we had the political will and funds to do it, but we don't. Most of the lemmings don't care about moving off this rock, and even if we do, there will be plenty of physical problems to overcome to do it successfully. Remember, you were built for a 1 g environment, not zero g or 0.7 g ( such as the moon ) . NASA has spent considerable monies investigating the physical consequences of leaving the Earth. In a nutshell, it' not healthy for humans unless they can find a 1 g environment somewhere else very soon ( in a matter of days or weeks ) . Got any place in mind? The trip to Mars is 3.5 years.

So, like Rome, we've gone from a Republican form of government to an Imperium? Maybe they'll start coining money with Bill Caesar's image. Probably make it of aluminum/copper sandwich.

Yes. Thumbs down to them...

away...to the lions den



Irvine Boy - G'day mate.

Guilty as charged.

Thanks for the most interesting article on the silver lease CON.

One thing not addressed in this piece is, who owns the silver which has been leased out? It was my ( perhaps imperfect ) understanding that Central Banks did not own silver.

And, if the silver leased out has disappeared forever, where do the borrowers go to find silver to repay the loan? IMHO they are in deep manure.

This will get very interesting.

A small cadre of us believe that Big Trader= Another = long time Kitco poster= ongoing scam. I value the insight of real, successful traders who post here. It is probably insignificant that Another's postings have increased at about the same time that Hepcat returned as the brother of Bernatz. Whither goeth the metals this week????

Except there is more than one person behind him.
Notice whenever interest in ANOTHER wanes that
certain people resurrect his message and
solicit comments on him. The people
who respond are also playing their roles.
The whole thing is so laughably unprofessional
that to take it seriously has become a kind
of reverse con.

Oldman - Glad you're back, spouting your
white supremacy nonsense. Couldn't you
direct your views to a more appropriate
forum, like alt.kkk.com? Who would you
want your 6- year- old daughter or niece
to come into contact with - Mr. Simpson
with a long knife or Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey
with a plate of Christmas cookies?

to restore my previous one.

Otherwise, spin your nonsense elsewhere.

Gentlemen, I have done a thorough analysis of ANOTHER's syntax and linguistic patterns...plus a comparative analysis of his idiosyncratic
mannerisms with other notable essayists.

My conclusion is that he is none other than AL GOLDSTEIN, publisher and writer for SCREW magazine.

( Yes, I know it is a shocking revelation...and I hope it does nothing to undermine Kitcoites belief in ANOTHER's sagacity ) .

Actually ANOTHER has hit me right in the middle of my sense of humour and I look forward to his weekly posts like they are a Saturday Nite Live continuing skit- - the old SNL. Given the misleading "gold is going up" stuff that has mislead and apparently bankrupt some of the past and present viewers during the past 2 years- - he/she probably has done little harm - - that we know of.

uh huh ... since the power they would generate has to be beamed down as microwave energy to farms of antennas ... you want to tell me some Print'n Clinton wouldn't order the beam to "wander" over an adversary's territory, or even Texas, slowly frying the opposition? Solar Power Satellites are a good idea only in a world filled with nicey- nicey people.

ps - Karlito99 is away in North Korea, getting a refresher lesson on the wonders of total state control.

Miro: Thanks for reply

It has been interesting to watch the effects of ANOTHERs posts on this forum.

Because ANOTHER has been so thought provoking, naturally everyone wants to know where he is coming from. What are his motives? What does he know?

His authority will ultimately be decided by the accuracy of his projections about gold, because that is the litmus test for everyone here that makes predictions.

To me, he rings true. I dont think there is much deception in his writing. He writes and uses English in a style similar to other people I have known from that part of the world he implies he is from. He writes well and with respect.

He claims to have watched gold for a long time, and that certainly looks true. It would be a hard vantage point to fake.

He describes a cultural appreciation of wealth that is consistent with older cultures perceptions, and contrary to the New Worlds perceptions.

So it is easy for me to simply accept ANOTHER as a man who holds an important position in the Arab world who wishes to share his ideas anonymously. His perspective is illuminating because it is tempered by intelligence, training and much experience. I appreciate the opportunity to see it, no matter what his motives.

His authenticity, of course, would not make him an oracle or infallible. All points of view are self limiting. His is perhaps as close as we are likely to see to the fundamental reason why gold has enduring value; old culture and tradition. Though he may have great experience with the vagaries of Western thought, I am sure there are mysteries there for him. He can probably accurately predict some actions from within his circles, but he might be less accurate predicting reactions, particularly from those Westerners who regularly shock even themselves.

Perhaps for him Kitco offers an opportunity to meet Westerners on a common ground.

Frankly farfel, I'm much more concerned about the welfare of James Brown in the insane asylum...are they feeding him well?, do they let him have a hi- fi?, etc....than about the nationality or agenda of ANOTHER...he didn't even mention the Godfather of Soul in his weekly address....hell with him...he doesn't even care.

Printin Clintin is not even a maggot in the after birth of history. We need real leaders, people of intelligence, will, honor, gumption. We should demand a world where maniacs would not turn a worthwhile technology into a weapon of destruction.

Dreams can become realities, they surely can and do.

At the interrogatories yesterday in D.C., Printin Clintin didn't even recognize Paula Jones until she yawned.

Speed, RJ: ANOTHER is popular I think due to the mystery - - and the non- western thinking. As I have posted before, it makes me think. And - - generally I disagree with his/her posts. Regardless the perspective is interesting, even if nothing specific is said that can be used for investing. Big Trader's posts caused just as much commotion, and there really was nothing specific in those posts either.

But - - we do have to make sure our fellow Kitcoites do not make any investing decisions about what to do and what not to do - - based only on ANOTHER's comments. Of course - - no Kitco advice should be taken for investment decisions without corroboration from different sources anyway.

And, as many others have said, any investment decision is the responsibility of the investor involved.

Have you ever heard of the Space Studies Institute?

when standard oil first visited saud's arabia in the 1930's, payments were demanded and made in gold coin.

Laughing so hard, I can barely type. I want you to know that your last post is responsible for the gob of Ham sandwich sliding down my monitor. Off to get the Windex.

Selby, regarding your post 00:46.

I've been in Toronto, probably 10 or so times.
Beautiful city, I like it very much, cooking is great too...
Like Canadians also, they are a little bit more
European than Americans. But that's all I know about
Canada, and it would be wrong for me to try to show
you that I know Canada and to try to explain to you
why there is a difference between Canada and the U.S.

But here is my extremely, I repeat - EXTREMELY simple
thought - Canada does NOT trust its citizens to own
firearms and the U.S. does trust its citizens to own
firearms.

I REALLY LIKE TO BE TRUSTED....

Mozel, could you please post your
understanding of socialism?

I used to live in the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST
Republics, I thought I know what it is, but
now I am confused...

to what you say every time you are called on to defend
ANOTHER. It's like you are reading from a script.
You say the same thing EVERY SINGLE TIME. Please don't
think that just because you have been successful
at turning this forum into the ANOTHER comedy hour
you have somehow surmounted ridicule from people who
really know how to run a successful sting.

TOLERANTl.....Have you found anyone to cast your " charm " for the mission yet????I've been a Dentist and jeweler for 16 years and a GOLDBUG since birth! I personally believe Glenn is a hero in many peoples eyes. He has contributed to society infinately more than any of us on this forum. He darn sure deserves one- heck- of- chunk- a- GOLD if they give him a second crack at it. There is'nt anything I can't cast into GOLD. Please E- mail me at k& bferg@gpcom.net if I can help!! PS if any one else would ever like something custom cast, duplicated or melted into something else call. dr.bob

Duly noted and filed. I am still pondering several aspects of this idea. I shall keep all informed. Thanks.

if i were on the short list for a post as pm/finance/foreign affairs minister of a new government in an oil rich nation whose finances were somewhat in disarray, i think i would explore the possibilities for an increase in the price of oil which was not confrontational at first glance. however, i have heard that the us treasury was not amused several years ago when the boj accumulated some gold ostensibly for the minting of commemorative coins.

If I had to guess, and I find the limb quite unconfortable for my skinny butt, I would say that the big "A" is a politician. Legal training perhaps...someone who has the ability to create undetectable lies within context. When and if necessary. He has a precise mastery of the langual art of saying without communicating. The listener feels satisfied after the performance...but learns very little from it. I honestly do not get what he's talking about and have learned nothing from his words. I already knew oil and gold could be used to purchase each other much like dollars and cabbage.

Through all of this Another business, one should not overlook at the perception change of the masses. I would state that with the increased popularity of bullion buying by the Middle Class, to me this is not a forseen as investment vehicle, rather an investment in survival, conifidence is begining to be shaken, and when it is shaken, people turn to the object that has been used to weather finicial uncertainty throughtout modern time.

Something is in the air! The masses are like flocks of birds that in a group flee from some unkown danger, People are starting to flock to gold.

Not trying to be a sooth sayer, to be sure the roles have been filled here, just reporting what is taking place. Will it amount to anything, who knows. But history and the cycles of life point that it will.

Would be interesting chart readers to look at the cycles of war and tell us at what point of the curve we are at; or of the economy cycles.

Aren't all major boom cycles followed by a bust cycles, ( from the overbuilding ) and major bust cycles followed by war? ( War extremely profitable to the winners. It even stimulates the economy for the losers for a period of time. )

Where are we on the trend line?

Here only to ask questions and seek answers to the questions there of.



Blast away Bernie

bernatz du v- - - : Your posts are rather negative today - - you might want to think about that. Also - - think about ANOTHER in the context of a grandparent - - or older member of a family. In other cultures, the words of our seniors are respected, regardless of what decisions are finally made. Our American culture has lost respect for the older generation. Do you not agree?

RJ Said:

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 13:59

RJ ( ..... ANOTHER what? ..... ) ID#411259:

I sat out this question for some time, it now begs to be answered:

"What's with this whole ANOTHER guy thingie?"

Seems to me this guy set the hook firmly in the collective Kitco mouth a few months ago and has done little but loosen the drag occasionally to let rest run with it. I will congratulate ANOTHER on

one thing though, he has the highest response to post ratio

since Big Trader.

######################################################################

Yes, it does sometimes display similarities to the results

of the anthropological studies done on small group dynamics

serving long durations in the isolated outposts of Antarctica.

A GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD... Implemented by the Japanese

IS IT Financial Fairy- tale or Expedient Global Monetary Necessity: A Global Gold Standard?! STARTLING IMF ( International Monetary Fund ) data demonstrate its feasibility. The Bank of Japan's T- Bond holdings is the keystone for success.

The above statement is the considered opinion of the ORACLE in his GOLD- EAGLE post in mid- 1997. Subsequent events in the international currency world, and statements by very important Japanese politicians, including Prime Minister Hashimoto, lend credence to the growing possibility of a GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD. In further support of this hypothesis is the December 1997 statement by a well- respected Japanese news agency. Verbatim excerpts follow.

BEHIND HASHIMOTO'S REMARK ON DUMPING U.S. TREASURIES

JAPAN ECHO Vol. 24, December 1997 by TAKAO Yoshikazu


HASHIMOTO'S BOMBSHELL STATEMENT

Hashimoto had been delivering an address at Columbia University on June 23. Fielding questions, he was asked by the manager of a hedge fund what he thought about U.S. government bonds held in Japan's foreign- currency reserves losing value owing to a rising yen and falling dollar. Hashimoto replied that Japan had been "tempted to sell U.S. Treasuries and buy gold" on a number of occasions, such as when he was wrangling over autos with former U.S. Trade Representative Mickey Kantor. He added that the temptation also arose when Americans focused their eyes inward,
demonstrating little interest in the outlook for exchange rates and the value of the dollar as the world's key currency.

This was, of course, an impromptu comment in a question- and- answer session, and reportedly it was delivered in a jocular manner. But it nonetheless had an official ring because it came from the lips of a prime minister who was speaking in a public place. Under what conditions might a foreign government begin selling off U.S. Treasuries?

Two basic scenarios can be postulated. First, a country whose currency is falling against the dollar may try to arrest the slide through intervention in currency markets using dollars obtained through their sale. This presents no particular problem; in fact, foreign- currency reserves are accumulated for just such a use. The second scenario is closer to the situation in which Japan found itself in the spring of 1995. That is, if a country sees its currency rise against the dollar, and if it suspects that the United States is deliberately maneuvering to keep the dollar cheap, it may sell U.S. government bonds in retaliation. As an economic policy, of course, this makes no sense. When the yen is strong and the dollar weak, money flows into Japan on a net basis, and Tokyo should hold on to dollars in cash or use them to buy Treasuries instead of selling them. If it nonetheless sold them, this could only be an act of revenge.

THE WEIGHT OF GOLD

Although the prime minister never said anything about a gold standard, it is conceivable that if U.S. Treasuries were ever sold, gold would be purchased as a substitute, as I remarked earlier. But any attempt to construct a new monetary system backed by gold would deliver a blow to the U.S. monetary strategy and also cause the price of gold to spiral upward. As gold became more expensive, the dollar would be likely to get cheaper. The falling dollar would then drive up U.S. prices and force hikes in interest rates. America would be thrown into confusion, and its stock prices would come crashing down.

Japan is now in the midst of a reform of its financial system that will bring it into line with Anglo- American standards and introduce American- style market principles. Big Bang will get off to a start in April 1998 with the liberalization of foreign- exchange controls and will include many more specific measures now being worked out. Should the U.S. bubble happen to collapse while this reform is in progress, the impact would hit Japan more directly than ever before. Hashimoto's off- the- cuff remark, which itself could shake the foundation of the dollar standard, happened to score a direct hit on the delicate mechanism of skyrocketing U.S. stock prices and the risk that they will suddenly nose- dive.

Given the monetary history of the world, the convertibility of currencies into gold cannot be treated lightly. The significance of gold is too weighty for that.

Translated from "Hashiry 'Bei kokusai hatsugen' no shin'i," in Voice, September 1997, pp. 12029; slightly abridged. ( Courtesy of PHP Institute ) - - - - - - - - - - - -

Stark testament to the feasibility of the observations made above by the Nippon News source is the perceptive ORACLE report, A GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD - The ORACLE report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

I take it that your not overly enthused about Brush Creek

Just testing to see if I should use this computer for communications or target practise.

Grant, I agree with you on the subject of optics, in
normal combat close- range conditions optics are not
practical and in most of the cases it makes weapon more
sensative to "harsh" conditions of battlefield...

Here is my question - are you serious about hitting
man- sized target at 600 yards with the iron sights?

I shot a lot of different guns, including specialized
sporting fireams, and I have doubts you can do it.

Theoretically it is probably possible with Sharps Rifle
and good peep sight on it, but still you got to be
a real Sharpshooter, may be 1 in 1,000,000.

I would say I can hit such target with my fine tuned
SMLE #4 up to 400 yards, or with customized long- barrel
AK ( I put peep sight on it to increase sight radius ) up
to 300 yards, assuming good ammo is used., but at 600
yards I will not probably see the target good enough to
aim at it.

You comments will be appreciated, I am in target shooting
business and I am interested to learn.

If you believe that the gold price is being manipulated and that oil turns the world machine, it is fairly simple to recognize; that for a time regardless of supply/demand fundamentals, oil can command its own price. Or simply, what happens when the machine stops?
So it is conceivable that an oil producing country may receive a portion of its payments for oil in gold, so as not to effect golds manipulated price.
Then there is the belief that new technology will one day make oil less important. Would you want paper investments that might go the way of the Asian Tigers or gold?

As far as making the $280. call, there have been many capable analysts on this site that have been saying $275- $285. for months. I will make my investment decisions today and in the future based on the analytical works of EB, Cherokee, Realistic, Cyclist, LGB, Bernatz, tolerant1, Donald, xau and other capable Kitcoites ( I am sure I left at least two more off of the list...I'm sorry. ) I know these gentlemens' intentions and appreciate their work.

aurophile- - Is that indeed a fact that the U.S. powers were annoyed at the Japanese for accumulating gold to strike a commemorative coin? If true, then how precariously are the scales of finance balanced??? Perhaps I should restate this and say that this shows how precariously the scales of finance are balanced!

I wonder if Canyons's McDonald mine permitting process could be affected by the Pegasus chapter 11 filing? Montana is a difficult state to permit a mine in and Pegasus is the largest gold miner in the state. They have 4 large scale mine sites and numerous exploration properties all with reclamation liabilities which run into the 10's of millions of dollars. If they default on these obligations the very active anti- mining groups in Montana will have a poster child better than Summitville.

As an aside what will happen to the ceditors should Pegasus not be able to reorganize? Who is first in line to receive the assets. If the banks were to assume partial or full ownership of the mines they might find themselves in the reclamation business. Could it be that the price of a gold loan gone bad will prove to be substantially more than the value of lost gold?

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 11:17

MoReGoLd ( @MEET THE DEPRESSED ) ID#348129:

If Psycho James Carville is the best talking head Clinton has to defend him, the Presidential doomsday is at hand.....

######################################################################

Inhabiting the persona of Mr. Carville would be akin to having

bees living in your head.

Snowball ( Just a test

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dialing in the windage....

The price tag for developing the McDonald Gold Project is around $205 million
for gold that costs $300/oz. The way the bankers whipped up on Pegasus makes
financing this project difficultl. Canyon has $41 million shares outstanding.
Twice the average trading volume on 1/16.

Wow, out of my league. My problem is that I reached that pitiful moment in my life which calls for bifocals. I am fighting it, but it's either sharp sights or sharp target. Can't get them both :- ( 150+ ( OK maybe 200+ ) yards better be optics. On that note, I believe that you can do 600 yards just with iron sights, some people have vision like eagles.

Check this URL for your info on Blanchard fund.
http://biz.yahoo.com/p/b/blpmx.html

Click on 'holdings' button. TVX looks to be about 15% as of late September.

Elevate 13 degrees and let it fly. Just give me time to grab my beer.

Ted Butler- that was one fine piece you wrote on silver. You
eluded[I think??] on the first page that gold might be in the
same situation. Comments?

Tally Ho

I'm not very familiar with the mechanics of shorting gold so I would appreciate some feedback on this from anyone savvy and kind enough to respond.

Let's suppose that I took a substantial short position on gold last Friday in New York, as gold spiked up to $290 and ( I'm not sure if this can be done ) gave instructions to my broker ( the lender ) to cover my position ( stop buy? ) at say $295.

Now let's suppose that mid- day through Asian trading on Monday, news breaks that Khadafi is successful in his bid to arrange for an emergency OPEC meeting to discuss the plunging price of oil. Let's say this news incites a couple of major South African gold producers to monetize a substantial portion of their hedges on Tocom and results in a $10- 15 gold price increase. When London opens later, a few more producers decide to cash in ( the heavily hedged producers are after all the largest short- sellers of them all and partly if not largely responsible for gold's demise ) and take some profits while there's still time.

After the dust settles, say gold closes at $315 in London. My question is , with the American markets closed on Monday, would my short position be covered at $295, at $315, or would it be covered at all? If the same scenario is repeated on Tuesday in Asia and Europe and gold opens at $330 in New York Tuesday morning.... what then? Will I get a call from my broker on Tuesday advising me that I'm going up sh- - creek without a paddle?

I did stay tuned to Kitco last Sunday night January 11th and for the following days and what I noticed is the most successful recovery week in the Asian equity markets in several months.

Date: Sun Jan 11 1998 15:41
Puetz ( bpuetz@holli.com ) ID#222167:
Only 3 more hours before the carnage begins is Asia.
Stay tuned to Kitco for the details.
The great stock market crash of 1998 is set to begin!

YES!

John Disney__A ( The sign of the eight pound sphere )

Suddenly things started to become ambiguous. and its

been downhill since -

Same in other areas - Hemmingway or Faulkner before

- Updike and Theroux today. The talent's still there

but the attitude has shifted.

**********************************************************


It's been said that the poets are the unacknowledged legislators.
Given the trash they've long been churning out, no rhyme or reason,
wouldn't be cause for great optimism. Not that one could blame them,
they can't help it.

Let's not forget to monitor a potential major event:

Last Monday January 12th we saw Bonds reaching it's highest level ever ( a top? ) backing down eversince while on the same day Gold has reached its lowest level in 18 years, recovering greatly since those lows.

Successful traders and investors are always there to watch for these major happenings so that the odds can increase greatly to profit from these situations.

January the 12th 1998 may turn out to be just a normal day if Bonds make new highs and/or Gold make new lows but we must at least BE THERE and take our bets just in case this date will turn out to be a big turning point for those who will look back on their charts in several years!

We are all facing a great puzzle and putting the pieces together is indeed very demanding. Instead of predicting "emotionally", I think we can be well served by being in touch with what's happening RIGHT NOW and dealing with reality, no matter the reasons why some events are taking place.

We talked for endless hours about ANYTHING. Not knowing what
the next hours would bring.Secretly praying for salvation.
Gold 305 next week?

They have been well orchestrated thus far in the domestic market
Will they tinker with inflation world wide? I think that's what
I want to happen.

What level of gold would be considered a break out in current trend in your opinion? $305- $325?

Chrisophilos ( A purely hypothetical scenario....you may say doomsday )

Assuming you were substantially SHORT AT MAXIMUM MARGIN, and the gold markets went limit up on each day's opening, trading would be halted, and your daily loses would be nightmarishly compounding, whereby you could conceivably lose your house and your derriere... what's left of it! When you are SHORT vis- a- vis soaring prices, your theoretical lose is infinite. And bet your life they would collect.

it should read: "... your theoretical LOSS is infinite. And bet your life they would collect."

I saw this referenced the other night ( the US displeasure on Japanese buying of gold ) in a post ( maybe here, maybe not ) from a translation of a Japanese journal article. Also mentioned was the possibility of a secret agreement between Japan and the US of longstanding to the effect that Japan would NOT buy gold. Inasmuch as I have never been able to fathom why they didn't, it had the ring of plausibility. I cannot find the article in the mess of my files at the moment....

I this case I'd choose "300" because of it's great psychological implications.

But let's be careful, the term "breakout" has different meaning for so many people.

Once and if Gold closes above $300 ( a few times in a row preferably ) , it will be another fantastic opportunity to take bets on the scenario that it will not get back below that level! The first bet could be lost....and the second one.....and the third one too! ( We see here the importance of never betting the house on something. ) But what if the 4th bet becomes the right one?

I sure will be there for the battle around the $300 level.

That is precisely what happened in January 1980. The shorts were taking a beating until they prevailed upon the FED to assure the Comex Silver Committee it was OK to screw the longs. Dr. Henry Jarecki, the Yale psychiatrist and principal in Mocatta, was chairman of the committee, and did the foul deed, or so I was told at the time. So you only get hit big time if you are so small that you can't call up Paul Volcker and Henry Jarecki and tell them what to do. Or if you are politically incorrect as was Nelson Bunker Hunt.

That sounds like something Theroux's Uncle Hal might have said in "My Other Life."

BUFFORD, regarding the cost of gold production at McDonald being $300/ounce. The following is from a Canyon Resources press release dated Dec. 15.

"MINEABLE RESERVE

( at $275- 300/ oz. gold )

Cut- Off Grade- - - - - - Tons- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Grade- - - - - - - Ounces

( opt gold ) - - - - - - ( millions ) - - - - - - - - - opt gold ) - - - - Gold ( millions )

0.020 ( external ) - - - - 96.0- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0.046- - - - - - 4.4

0.008 ( internal ) - - - - 155.7- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0.012- - - - - - 1.9

TOTAL- - - - - - - - - 251.7- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0.025- - - - - - 6.3

Barren Rock/Ore

Strip Ratio 1.7:1

"The anticipated cash operating costs of gold produced in this low- gold price mine plan are approximately $150 per ounce. The estimated initial capital costs are $205 million."

The $275- 300 referred to above is not the cash cost of production but was the gold price used for open pit design calculations.

What is not clear is if the $205 million includes the + or - $100 million due Phelps Dodge when the mine goes into production or the cost of the reclamation bond, which in Montana will be sizable.

I hope the table came out with resonable alingment, I am new at this.

Read Milhouse and others/ it is clear that the FED will do everything in its power to keep the mkt up. Only when the overseas boys deem it in their interest not to cooperate will we get the Big One. Asia may be moving us in that direction. Incidentally Martin Armstrong predicted 18 dollar silver at his May 13th 1997 conference. Now hired by the "injured" and calls for 3 bucks by July if "they" have to liquidate/ if they dont then max up is to 7 bucks IHHO.

Seems to be a pinicle point for markets of this year, why is that?

Having moved from a new low of 278.3 set on monday, gold closed on
friday at 290.6, an advance in four days of 4.4% . Gold funds began to
move up from extremely low levels as most gold stocks recognized the
new advance in metals. Because the rally began with Japanese support
of the yen and a reduction in the flight of capital to the dollar, gold may
just be responding to currency fluctuations. The Japanese are responding
to their fiscal problems and potentially large bankruptcies, and have
stated that they must maintain stability in currency trading. Apparently
they thought that 134 yen/dollar was high enough for them. If the
exchange rate stays below 130 yen/dollar and the long bond rate keeps
climbing, the gold rally and gold fund rally should continue. However,
another crunch or crisis causing flight back to the dollar would probably
create another dip to test the gold lows, taking funds down once more.

http://www.eaglewing.com/

Canyon management must first prove they can produce a profit at Briggs mine in Inyo County, CA before they seriously begin to finance McDonald. 1998 1st 1/4 results should shed light on how well they're doing at Briggs. Pegasus problem in Montana is certainly another impediment for Canyon to overcome. However, Canyon's mining record in Montana is good with respect to their Kendell mine and its recent reclamation.

By the way, mine permit holders must be bondable. If a permit holder defaults on its obligation before mine reclamation, the bonding company will take over the responsiblity of reclaiming the project as outlined in the original permit.

Asia gold up $4+ from their Friday close @ $291.70

oris: You might be right but I doubt more than a handful would agree with you. Having the Government trust you is not an issue. May be it was in your experience but not here.

Asia gold up 4.70 to 291.10

Jack -

Re: Armstrong - If he really said what's been printed, he's either incredibly ill- informed or he's trying to manipulate the price of silver down. If he's just trying to talk it down, I hope he gets burned.

Ray -

I'm sure the gold loan story will end in default, I just don't know how close we are to the end. Wish I did.

Aurophile-

You raise a valid point about individual credit risk in metal loans, but that's beyond the point I've tried to make, i.e., metal loans are fraudulent in that they can never be paid back collectively. In other words, the strongest credit in the world cannot pay back something that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist. I don't think Aunt Susie knows that, unless she's on AIG's metals desk.

CURRENCY TURMOIL IN 1998 by Milhouse

TAIWAN PREPARES FOR YUAN'S FALL - - JUST IN CASE

The economic supremo of Taiwan's ruling party, Lui Tai- ying, has challenged conventional wisdom on China's commitment to retaining a strong currency by warning of a MAJOR DROP IN THE YUAN BY JUNE.

Lui predicts a worst- case scenario of a 40 percent fall via a gradual devaluation, or a 25 percent one whack depreciation.

The Hong Kong Oracle has given another insightful and perhaps even alarming prediction of what currency turmoil to expect in Asia during 1998. It is definitely NOT a pretty picture. Milhouse gives his considered opinion on most major currencies and GOLD.

Gold will be the major beneficiary of the increasing currency
volatility wrought by EMU and the drive to inflate which is
already underway in almost every country. The reason it will
benefit is because it is the only form of money which exists
outside the financial system. As such, it is the only truly effective hedge against inflation. Any method of hedging against inflation which exists within the financial system involves a payment risk. Also, even if your non- gold hedge is 100% effective, you simply end up with a larger quantity of paper.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet Go To window ( Location ) , then hit ENTER.

I was going to ask if this is the latest, I see it must be.
GC G8
Feb. Gold
2911
+47
+1.6
2966
2865
35.1K

HighRise

Has come down considerably from its high. Company with about 23 million shares out has a property in Venezuela's km- 88 distric close to PDG's Las Cristinas.
The alluvial portion of GLR's property is said to contain about 7 million+ ounces of AU. It looks like they will also get the hardrock rights to the property. Also enviromental concerns in the ( ?? ) rainforest have hurt company.
More info is available at CanadaNewsWire.

IMHO I think they are getting a little frantic about March given the Lease rate action. In May 1997 Armstrong predisted a big silver rally to 18. Now apparently he has been retained by the injured parties to testify against the manipulators. Interesting lease rates going ballistic well before the first notice while in Dec they did not skyrocket till we were in the thirty day period. What do you think?

Thanks for the input on CAU. I see I will have a bit of reading to do on them.

Well done Realistic. I don't know who Puetz is or what he/she is on but their predictions of crashes and disaster seem to be ALWAYS wrong.

I would much prefer to see some OBJECTIVE analysis of current market trends than silly emotional outbursts which are designed to provide moral support for impoverished goldbugs.

Someone mentioned a support of $US300. Bill Buckler seems to be looking at that price as well. But Bill got it wrong in October so we'll have to wait and see.

I really liked your article, but I'd have to disagree that the borrowed and sold gold and silver doesn't exist. It's there at a price, either on the market or in the ground. My question is whether the borrowers can perform. My point about Aunt Susie is that nearly everyone knows ABOUT leasing.

sig__A, Montana requires a cash bond or irrevocable letter of credit from a bank. The Golden Sunlight expansion project , Placer, came with a $33 million bonding requirement. The Beal mine expansion, Pegasus, would have cost $10 million in additional bonding if Pegasus had gone forward with it. Basin Creek, Pegasus, had a $13 million cash bond. The cost of bonding gold mines is not tied to the amount of gold mined but given the reserves at the above projects it works out to around $100/ounce. I am not aware of any bonding company that would assume this type of risk especially after Summitville.

I think that $291.1 may be Saturdays price? I remember seeing it Friday night or Sat. am.

HighRise

Not Government, Selby.

I'm talking about Constitution, which is still
and will be hopefully for some time above the Government.

Government can do mistakes. But system still works.

Here is an example that impressed me very much.

I've got my first handgun while being just a
Green Card holder, not US citizen. In Michigan,
it used to be a law that stated that only
US citizens can own handguns. So, what do you
think happened? MICHIGAN court ruled that
it is unconstitutional, law was changed and I've been
the second non- US citizen in Michagan to purchase
handgun legally. The first one was a person who
applied to court, seeking court ruling against
the local government refusing to issue handgun purchase
permit. This person needed handgun for self- defense.

By the way, Local Prosecutor office helped me a lot
to get my first handgun, and local police officer
was ready to give me recommendations, if necessary.
I was not a U.S. citizen yet, but they trusted me.

Firearms are not toys, if you are trusted with
these ones, it means a lot.

Gold in Asia takes its usual small drop at openning
- 0.20 at 290.60

I wonder whether PGU ( pigasses ) had its gold loans called.

i suppose the smart lessors will be the early ones who get both their gold back AND the mine. the later ones will only get the shaft.

So far so good, $US keeps coming down agains Yen - .50 at 128.30
I like the picture.

Is the COMEX Up and running MONDAY ???

ROR -

If what I've been saying about these crooked leases is true, I'm not so sure that first notice days matter much. Don't get me wrong, I've looked with anticipation to each first notice day in silver for too many moons to not feel as you do, but with a set date like that, the CFTC and Comex are always on guard to diffuse an obvious problem. With the leases, it could come without notice. If anything, I've noticed a sell- off into first notice day as the longs must put up full cash to hold beyond that date, while the shorts have no such requirement. I guess what I'm saying is that the jolt will come from the cash market, the paper market is under control, or at least it has been.

aurophile -

Sorry if I sounded like a smartass, it wasn't my intention. I just get a little frustrated that no one else sees this fraud. My point is it's physically impossible for these loans to be paid back, because you can't create metal like you can create currency. Southeast Asia went down in flames because they borrowed in a currency they couldn't create. Metal is a lot harder to create than paper. The price that it would take to uncover the required amount to be paid back could not be afforded by the participants.

It seems once again the Asian markets have the price of gold falling once again. It figures..

Are you on line?

Si.

ROR -

If what I've been saying about these crooked leases is true, I'm not so sure that first notice days matter much. Don't get me wrong, I've looked with anticipation to each first notice day in silver for too many moons to not feel as you do, but with a set date like that, the CFTC and Comex are always on guard to diffuse an obvious problem. With the leases, it could come without notice. If anything, I've noticed a sell- off into first notice day as the longs must put up full cash to hold beyond that date, while the shorts have no such requirement. I guess what I'm saying is that the jolt will come from the cash market, the paper market is under control, or at least it has been.

aurophile -

Sorry if I sounded like a smartass, it wasn't my intention. I just get a little frustrated that no one else sees this fraud. My point is it's physically impossible for these loans to be paid back, because you can't create metal like you can create currency. Southeast Asia went down in flames because they borrowed in a currency they couldn't create. Metal is a lot harder to create than paper. The price that it would take to uncover the required amount to be paid back could not be afforded by the participants.

Just saw your post, thanks as well for the input on CAU.

fwiw, I think ANOTHER and Big Trader are the same poster.

Please take a moment and visit http//:www.quicken.com Then select quote "azc" and then select and examine financials. Tell me what you see, por favor.

oris: Remember I said the Canadian Constitution and related laws were set up to avoid being similiar to the US. The major ideals are Peace Order and Good Government not Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. No coincidence they stress something both different and a reaction to the US Constitution. The control of hand guns follows and is supported by the citizens of the country although the lesser regulation of rifles is about 50- - 50 and depends on where you live.

AZCO Mining closed at 1 3/8 down 1/16th on Friday.

Lester Turlow says Japan is the sickest economy in the world meaning the
Japanese have yet to do the "structural reforms" ( i.e. adopt Western
accounting standards ) . Somebody else said on the overnight that the
fundamental problem in Asia is corruption, meaning bribery, payoffs, and
theft as well as cooking the books. I said it was a problem of the
political bankruptcy of twentieth century monetary policy and the
American Corporate Socialist model and I'd like to expand on that and
connect it with another theme on the overnight: the moral deterioration
in America. And the incorruptiblity of gold and to an insignificant
lesser extent, silver. Because it is their incorruptibility as
substances which makes gold and silver suitable as "lawful money".
The thing which connects all of the above together is "moral hazard".

"Moral hazard" refers to the observable fact that when people are
relieved of the responsibility of making choices or rescued from the
consequences of their behavior, they behave differently than they
otherwise would. They behave more badly in the most basic moral sense
of the word. This characteristic of human beings was first noted
in the insurance business, I think, where the actuaries have to quantify
the risks assumed by the insuror, including the amount of risk due to
the "moral hazard" created by the terms and conditions of a given
insurance policy. If we look for the engine that enables government to
take from people their power of choice, and responsibility, and that
enables government to foster a legal environment that rescues people
from the consequences of their behavior, the engine behind government
creation of "moral hazard" in short, this engine is, I submit, the
greenback.

Minted gold and silver coin, in American law, is "lawful money" ( as
distinguished from legal ) . An honest man does not expect or demand
something for nothing and the law ( as distinguished from legislation ) is
made by and for honest men. The Constitution of Virginia was
established by and for the good people of Virginia, not the rogues and
criminals. And so it was in all the states. But, the greenback, which
has been imposed on us by government, is nothing but printed paper. It
is the means to get something for nothing. Paying for bread or for a
man's day of labor with greenbacks is no different that paying with a
bad check. There is no substance behind either one. And substance for
substance is the only honest exchange. Paying with a bad check is a
dishonest cheat. And the people in and out of office who further and
promote the greenback are dishonest cheats. So, we have this
fundamental problem that the government and legality have been put into
the service of dishonesty and cheating. In short, the government that
issues greenbacks is against the law. It is the enemy of the honest man
for whom the law is made and the honest man is its enemy. So, in the
first instance the greenback creates "moral hazard" because it
accustoms people to dishonesty on a daily basis. They know getting
something for nothing is wrong at some point, but they soon cease to
think about it because everybody is doing it and they "have no choice".
So the first freedom which is lost to the greenback is the freedom to
refuse a dishonest exchange, the freedom not to give your something for
government's issue of nothing.

And once a person has rationalized that it's ok to do the wrong thing in
one area of life because everybody is doing it, it is a more acceptable
justification for doing wrong in other area's of life.

But this is merely the beginning. It is a principle of American law
that whatever government creates or allows to come into existence, it
controls. Its creatures have only those legal rights, legal privileges,
and legal immunities that government has granted them. If a corporation
is disagreeable, the government can cancel its charter and the
corporation ceases to exist. This is why corporations have no choice
but to participate in social security and the other socialist schemes.
It is the legal basis for American Corporate Socialism. Many think that
the corporation is inherently an instrument of private enterprise and
capitalism. Nothing is further from the truth. If the government is
socialist, the corporation is an instrument of socialism through its
adherence to the regulations of the government. American corporations
are "capitalized" without capital. Capital is gold and silver.
American corporations are "capitalized" with greenbacks. They are
socialist, not capitalist corporations. And this makes them a source of
"moral hazard". In the first place, with legal advice, they can
bankrupt and cheat their creditors without any of those making corporate
decisions being penalized. The legal environment created by unlawful,
dishonest government permits this. This state of affairs makes the
honest, lawful business man who pays his debts seem to be a fool. He is
further disadvantaged because he must pay taxes for the bailout of the
bankrupt when the activities of the bankrupt have been guaranteed by
government. It advantages and rewards the dishonest cheat who can get
the most something for the least nothing, legally. And, soon, everybody
is doing it.

But, through its power over the corporation government creates yet more
"moral hazard" by taking away more choice and with it the responsibility
for choice until gradually people feel like they are not respsonsible
for anything. Government takes their power of choice from them, makes
their choices for them, and therefore has all the responsibility.
People succumb to the moral hazard and behave irresponsibly,
accordingly. In the common law, the law made by and for honest men, the
law in which all constitutions were ratified, three of the rules of law
were caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware ) , caveat vendor ( let the seller
beware ) , and he who assumes the risk deserves the gain and the loss.
But, in the dishonest environment of greenback legalites, the politicans
can break the law, legally, even constitutionally, because our passing
around greenbacks puts us outside the law along with the other common
thiefs and cheaters who get something for nothing. The protections of
law and of the Constitution are protections for honest men. In the
dishonest world of greenback legalities, the buyer can be rewarded for
carelesssnes, foolishness, and worse. The seller, so long as he sells
according to government standards and government regulations, can ssell
harmful things with impunity. And the responsible risk taker can be
forced to pay for the irresponsibility of those who are heedless of
risk. Hence, the prudent banker is compelled to assume the bad loans of
the defunct bank. Hence, the working, solvent citizen pays to
compensate the improvident clients of the social insurance and welfare
agencies. Our liberties are taken from us, the responsibility that goes
with liberty is taken from us, and we are given a safety net in their
stead. So instead of being the security for the life, liberty, and
property of the honest people, greenback government is the enemy of all
three. Instead of being the protector of the good people who established
it, it is the promoter of "moral hazard" and of the attendant immorality
and of badness in people.


And now you know why there is a war against gold and animosity and
propaganda by the dishonest cheaters of this world against gold and
against those who refuse to exchange their something for nothing.

And now ask yourself, can the corrupt reform the corrupt ?

Gold Mining Newsletter is very high on AZCO, it is one of the nine top developmental mining companies according to James Blanchard.

Did you look at the financials? If not, select the same. Muy interesante.

$= 126.82 yen

I get the quote, but there is nothing else to click on to look at the financials.

O'tay, color me stupid. I will go back and see if I can locate them. If I am missing something just post the instruction and I will be back in a minute.

$ = 126.57 yen now, ( quotes basis march contract )

Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious metals Charts
5 Years, 120 day, 30 day and hourly charts at:
http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/5969
Click on Gold Sectors

I do not know exactly what you are looking for but they have a pretty solid web site http://www.azco.com

I think we are in basic agreement, just a difference in emphasis. there is also a school of thought which puts it yet another way: namely that the whole purpose of the gold loans was to rip off the CB's gold and silver. i prefer a simpler and more matter of fact interpretation: that the big finance houses have made a killing on these deals as they have generally in selling derivatives to the uninitiated. still, I would love to know who the big buyers have been.

No, I haven't heard of that particular think tank, but there are lots of them "studying" what mankind should do in space. Why do you ask?

PGU should now be under the protection of the Court. Chapter 11 is not all that bad, many large US corps have used 11 remember it is not 7. 11 is protection, buys time - not all that bad. It will let them get back to basics. "It is hard to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp when you are ass high in allegators ." circa 1973 and 1983 USA

Thanks, and thanks for directing me toward the Baker Hughes oil rig count chart a week or so ago.

Can anyone elaborate why the price of gold is falling in the Asian Market. Down 1.90/oz already. Why??

Is it that no one has an answer to my 09:52 question?

Just curious. Here is their site. I think you would find it interesting.


http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/ssi/home- ssi.html

Are we really saying that there is alarm because the controlled paper is having trouble controlling price so now accusations of manipulation. I am still waiting for a named defendant which does not seem forthcoming. Talk aboutr attempts at manipulation. Did you notice the sttement in the WSJ article that a "long investigation could keep prices under pressure"/A more obvious attempt at price manipulation by rumor mongering could not be more obvious. The BIG BUYER I HEARD in TEHRAN is not AFRAID OF ANY INVESTIGATION AND WILL KEEP BUYING AND WILL NEVER BE FORCED TO LIQUIDATE. I want to see the "authorities" gain jurisdiction in IRAN. My two cents. THE PHYSICAL MKT IS BEING TAKEN DOWN AND OUT OF US JURISDICTION!!

For some reason I can't call up your last post....but you can select "financials" on the left hand margin of the quote page. I think its the fifth entry reading down the margin. Anyway, the ratio of current assets to total book value is real neat ( see balance sheet ) . I don't know what the loss provision is on the income statement, but I'll find out. Really unusual balance sheet...no debt. My kind of company.

http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980118/australian_1.html

Night is young but I like development in Asia. Stock markets are steady, $US dropping. Yes, Gold came down but is holding steady. Gold stocks going up!

Relax, Gazebo...it goes up and it goes down...

However, there is little doubt that the foundations have been set for one massive short squeeze.

At least that's the message I got ( twice ) . But I have spent years in such think tanks, they only have value if the people have the will and money to reach for the stars..........

Ted Butler: I enjoyed reading your silver lease piece. Silverbaron had an interesting question related to it. I've cut and pasted it below from his Jan 18 14:19 message.

"One thing not addressed in this piece is, who owns the silver which has been leased out? It was my ( perhaps
imperfect ) understanding that Central Banks did not own silver. "

Also, for anyone that missed the WSJ article that Speed posted in the last day or 2, Princeton is apparently short 500 contracts of COMEX silver on Martin ( Shorts ) Armstrongs recommendation. My guess is that he was expecting silver to retest it's low of 1993 ( approx 3.50 ) and got caught on the wrong side. He probably still believes in his predictions long term but is trying to screw all the longs to fix his short term problem.

Can't wait til D.A. gets back and gives us his views on all this!

http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/ssi/home- ssi.html

I know that is the right address, but I get the same screen you are getting. I am positive I am doing something wrong.

PAUL KANGAS: My guest market monitor this week is James Dines, editor and
publisher of the widely followed "Dines Letter," based in Belvedere,
California. He comes to us tonight from San Francisco. Welcome back, Jim.

JAMES DINES, EDITOR, THE DINES LETTER: Hey, good to be here again Paul.

KANGAS: Right at the outset, let me say my hat is off to you for predicting
over a year ago, including during your last two visits with us that there
would be a global currency crisis with its origins based in the far east.
Excellent call.

DINES: Thank you. You deserve credit for having it on your show and showing
your audience that.

KANGAS: Now if you were clever enough to see that problem coming, perhaps you
can tell us now how the Asian turmoil will play out including a time
framework.

DINES: Sure. In my second book, "The Invisible Crash," I made five
predictions. One of them, the first one was the coming currency crisis that
we're getting. Number two, I said the coming competing currency devaluations
that's just getting underway. Number three, I said the coming collapses in
real estate and in banks, that's already happening in Asia. The fourth, I said
the coming trade wars that's yet ahead of us. And five, it would climax in a
major gold crisis, the coming gold crisis.

KANGAS: All right. Well it was a great call indeed, but can the U.S. market be
coupled from the Asian markets anytime soon?

DINES: See I really don't think so. Asia's really important. They're going
through 1929. It's a calamity out there. And, and I don't think it's really
sunk in yet. You'll notice the market stopped going up. I've been calling this
the mother of all bull markets on your show the last three years. We flashed a
sell signal last October and that's because I'm very concerned about Asia. I
think this is a really good time to get some money off the table and keep some
buying power and to have some gold stocks.

KANGAS: So it's going to be a while before this thing straightens itself out?

DINES: Yes, the only thing that would change my mind would be a new upside, a
new upside break out, a new all time high by the Dow, and that would really
impress me.

KANGAS: Well we'd, we'd have to get back to 8,259.

DINES: Yes.

KANGAS: And I must say that when you were last with us on April 4th, the Dow
was at 6,526. It was down 214 points that week. You said don't worry, we're
going to have an explosive rally. By August 6th, we were at the all time high.
So that was a good call.

DINES: Yes, but I missed it by two days though.

KANGAS: Yes, right.

DINES: I missed the bottom by two days.

KANGAS: Yes, you poor guy. All right. You gave us a couple of good stocks,
Sunbeam ( NYSE:SOC ) at low 30's, it's now 40. And you gave us Pre- Paid Legal
( AMEX:PPD ) on the American. It was 15, now it's 33 1/2. Excellent calls
indeed. What do you think of the market here? Apparently not too positive at
all?



DINES: No, I've, I've led my subscribers out of the market here. We have some
stocks in because I'm not really sure how our leaders are going to handle the
Asian crisis. You know they're printing 20 percent more money each year and
there's no way you can get currency stability. So all this money they're
throwing, the IMF is throwing at Asia is all wasted, and nothing is going to
work until they get clear. They've gotta link currencies to gold. It's a
position nobody agrees with, but that's where it is.

KANGAS: Well the, actually, Jim, the only blemish on your record in recent
visits is your persistently positive stance toward gold. You gave us stocks
that are down 30, 40, 50 percent. Franko- Nevada ( FN.TO ) , International Pursuit
( IPJ.TO ) , TNK Resources ( TNKRF ) . The three that you gave us back in April,
they're all down. Isn't it time to just throw in the towel?

DINES: Absolutely not. You don't cancel fire insurance just because you
haven't had a fire.

KANGAS: Okay.

DINES: Now remember, Dines' number 7, the Dines rule of gold countertrends
says gold goes opposite the market. Now gold went down in the last two years
because the market went up. Look at Asia. They're markets are crashing and
their gold prices are going up. You know when the Thai currency drops by half,
their gold price doubles.

KANGAS: But countries are selling their reserves of gold and it seems like the
new investment ...

DINES: Oh are they going to regret it.

KANGAS: ... the new investment standard, it's high quality bonds and maybe
stable currencies.



DINES: Oh are they going to regret it. Look at the Canadian, the quacks
running the Canadian currency. They sold all their gold and then suddenly the
Canadian dollar makes a downside break out to new low. Can't figure out why.

KANGAS: Sounds like the only recommendations on the buy side are gold stocks,
we have 40 seconds.

DINES: No, I like, there are a couple of things if you want to buy here. And
I'd like to have some stocks. One is Keane ( KEAN ) K- E- A- N on the New York
Stock Exchange, that's the millennium bug hedge.

Two, Stillwater ( AMEX:SWC ) S- W- C is my favorite, Platinum/Paladiums stock,
they're, both those metals are doing very well. They have the world's largest
deposit outside South Africa and Russia. Three, silver's already in a bull
market. The best one there is Pan American ( AMEX:PAA ) now at $9, P- A- A. Fourth
is gold. Franko- Nevada I recommend again, also International Pursuit. And
five, on the Internet, I'd buy a package of three stocks: America Online
( NYSE:AOL ) , Iomega ( NYSE:IOM ) and Mediconsult.com ( BB:MCNS ) .

KANGAS: All right, so you've, there are some that you do like after all.

DINES: Oh yeah.

KANGAS: Appreciate your being with us and we'll look forward to your next
visit, Jim.



DINES: Yeah, experience is what you think you have until you get more.

KANGAS: Okay. Thanks very much. My guest market monitor, Jim Dines of the
Dines Letter.

O'BRYON: And that wraps up NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT for Friday, January 16th.

.

There is really nothing new about the silver syndicate. Ted Arnold and Andy Smith have been writing about them for two years or more. They have systematically bought prime deliverable bars. But Comex and Tocom are very strong. Look what Tocom did to platinum and palladium the other day. Never underestimate their power and their willingness to use it, as they did in 1980 and ever since.

What exactly is going to happen to the gold market when:

1 ) The Swiss cancel and/or defeat their proposed referendum to sell gold.
2 ) Dollar, bonds, and equities experience a major, simultaneous tumble.
3 ) Japan decides maintaining American treasuries and dollars is not in its best economic interests and diversifies to gold.

With gold producers shutting down right and left, it seems we have the set- up for an amazing gold short squeeze.

( Haggis, now that's the type of cynicism that would make you proud of me )

Armstrong's site shows they are short term bearish but long term quite bullish on silver. They appear also to think that a bottom is forming in gold. I don't see how anyone can be bearish short term on silver ( not meaning it goes up tomorrow ) with that ewave chart. btw, I've been away for a long time. Does anyone still talk about TA here nowadays, or is it all funnymentals?

http://www.quicken.com/?setcookie= 1

If PGU starts trading again where will it trade, will there be an announcement before trading commences and what will be the price ( es ) it will start at?

I think the question of the hour is Was the price of gold pushed down with or without the consent of the CB's ? And maybe ANOTHER is just a trader who has checked the vaults.

It is not only the Central Banks which have been solicited to loan gold and earn a percentage while it's on lease. Any party which has a lot of gold in storage would be a candidate for such a solicitation. Needless to say this would include the Emir of Kuwait. Otherwise, his gold would be in Baghdad.

The kicker here is if the Emir has let these loans accummulate and roll over, but intends now to demand physical delivery and lease/loan gold no more. If the Emir were suddenly disenchanted with the advice of his western propagandized advisors, this could happen. If there were more of these contracts accummulated than there is physical gold on the market to meet them at any price, trading in gold would be stopped.

And if the Emir is fearful that his gold delivery is in jeapordy, he could be the buyer in silver who has no intention of returning the metal to the market.

This would mean one pair of very deep pockets is behind both precious metals squeezes.

Haggis_A: Re: your 01:06 AM post

No, I dont think that ANOTHER is Japanese.
My grandson is married to a Japanese.
ANOTHERs style, vocabulary, sentence structure,
do not resemble A Japanese person.

Also, Japanese are not outspoken,
and they have a tendency to stay in a group,
not single themselves out on the Internet.

Also, ANOTHER replied immediately to questions put to him.
This is a clear indication that he is NOT a Japanese.
It takes a LOOOOOng time to get a reply from a Japanese, IF EVER.
Japanese culture trained them
NEVER TO REVEAL THEIR TRUE FEELINGS.
Never to reveal their opinions OR SECRETS.
And you are trying to convince us that ANOTHER is Japanese?

My friend who is married to a wonderful Japanese lady told me:
....it took me 15 years before I discovered that I never knew my wife,
and that I will never know her....

For a Japanese to go on the Internet,
and talk to the whole world,
is almost as unthinkable as,
as,
as,
as .......Ziva, NOT being on the Internet.

SO, who could ANOTHER be ??
One of us mentioned that he may be the Sultan of Dubai.
I doubt it, the Arabs are a proud people,
they have class ( a rare commodity in our western world ) .
The Arabs will not bother to talk to us.
They see us ( and justifiably so ) as a despicable, degenerate culture,
who prostituted any elementary sense of ethics
by being totally one sided
in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Knowing the Arabs very well ( I am Jewish ) ,
it is inconceivable to me that one of them
will go out of his way to enlighten us regarding GOLD.
Just take a walk on the streets of any of our AMERICAN cities
and look at the idiotic miserable faces of our young generation.
Than walk on the streets of any major Moslem city
and compare their youth to ours.
You will understand immediately why the Arabs would not talk to us.

BTW, FWIW, IMHO,
ANOTHER may be Chinese, BUT not from China.
What do you think ?

PS:
Another photo of our beloved President:
http://www.cseti.org/programs/quote.htm


280 WAS THE BOTTOM
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Sorry, I missed the point regarding Canadian
Constitution. Thanks for reminding...

Anyway, I fully recognize and support the right
of the Canadian people to choose the way they want.
Guns are not toys, and if society can live w/o
them - it's propably good.

I'll keep my point of view unchanged. Thank you.
It was pleasure talking to you on this subject.

Let's now get back to gold.Guys are saying it's
down in Asia, and US$ is down.. Strange, one of them
should go in the opposite direction
to the other...
Holy Cow!!!
It's ANOTHER!!!

Thanks for the calming words. I strongly believe that the dollar's decline would help significantly to the rise in the price of gold. Not to mention that with some gold mining companies closing, there should soon be the "supply and demand" economics take place. The demand is high and the supply is short should be the grounds for a strong rally.

223...PGU will probably trade on the NASDAQ pink sheets until bankruptcy is rescinded ( which will happen if gold ever bounces to $350 or higher ) . That could happen next month...or in several years.

Keep your chin up...many companies operate in bankruptcy quite nicely. One of my favorite was the Riviera hotel ( operated in bankruptcy for several years ) . When it emerged from bankruptcy, common stock performed quite nicely indeed.

No question, they do look very strong indeed. And undervalued as well. This market is not looking at some obviously solid buys IMHO

Very interesting post.
You are probably right on Japanese
and Arab, but not sure about Chinese.

Oh, 223, in case you are not familiar with the Riviera, that is the hotel casino on the Las Vegas strip.

"a maggot in the afterbirth of history"? Tolerant1, you have outshone yourself with your prose this evening. Fortunately, I didn't have a ham sandwich in my mouth when reading yours of 15:07.

Perhaps the John Glenn lucky coin could have his face on it and dates of his two trips into space "There and back again" ( Hobbit ) . Limited edition. One free one to him, the rest we buy for the memories.

He certainly is bold and explicit in prediction.

OK.......... THE BATTLE- LINE IS DROWN
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

***********************************
Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 00:08
Oldman ( Gold Bottom ) ID#199183:
Ziva: I am still of the opinion that gold has NOT bottomed yet.
I am NOT of the opinion that it will fall to $250 retroactively:
I do think the price will hit the 250 range soon, however.
***********************************

OLDMAN.....one of the most respected people in Gold trading.
A person of wonderful personal integrity,
very rarely matched today. A person with class.
A humanitarian, philosopher and philanthropist .
A person of deep ethical convictions
and thorough knowledge of history.
A person with many successful years of GOLD and stocks trading.
A person which I am humbly honored to share this forum with.
( I realize some question: what in the h_ll am I doing at Kitco ) .

OLDMAN said ........GOLD at 250 soon.
ZIVA said ( Dec.29.1997 ) : GOLD BOTTOM WAS AROUND 280

Ziva.......a simple woman who likes to be a tail to the KITCO lions
with hope to learn something eventually.
Betting the whole farm that Gold has bottomed around 280.
With no GOLD trading knowledge,
Ziva used just common sense.


*******************************
Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 14:36
Ziva ( GOLD IS AT THE BOTTOM ( Dec.29.1997 ) ) ID#302251:
My husband said that from all the famous psychics in the USA,
only Sean David Morton has 100% accuracy rate
about Stock Market trends. My husband wish to pass to you that
this scientist/psychic said on Dec- 29- 1997 that:
...now is the time to buy GOLD.
Sooooo Faaaaar he is correct.
I listened to that interview at:
http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/archive.html#dec97
Click on Dec- 29
*******************************


Where is Mike Sheller today ?
280 was the bottom.....

223: PGU trading was opened on Friday, not sure if you want to hear the price.......... Closed at .11 Can!!!

It's really a shame that the bank consortium behind PGU could not pull a consensus together about re- working Peg's loans. The stumbling block was simply the collateralized banks adamant refusal to negotiate ( So, now the idiots get to wait indefinitely until a bankruptcy court determines if they can get anything at all ) .

However, gold investors can take heart in that the same type of rigid inflexlibility the banks are showing to gold companies will likely be mirrored in the same rigid inflexibility they will show to gold short sellers who come crying to them for forbearance in the future.

THERE WILL NO FORGIVING BANKS FOR THE SHORT SELLERS OF GOLD...THAT'S A GUARANTEE!

Silver to Teheran, you say...very interesting......

If one had a few billion $ and wanted to create chaos in the west, a silver 'bomb' in the financial markets might be just as a nuke.

Just buy all the physical silver stockpiles in NY and London, then sit back and watch the ( paper ) boys sweat!

http://www.discoverthailand.com/frame/f_king.htm

I have no intention of starting a food fight, but if you look back at the history of Canada you'll find that firearms restrictions are a relatively 'new' thing. Did these restrictions exist fifty years ago? Or how about seventy five years ago? And Please spare me the, "Those were the frontier days", speech. No the fact of the matter is this; As the march of world wide socialism continued, the first casualty was what I call 'rugged individualism'. Otherwise know as the ability to fend and protect your self without the Nanny state coming to wipe your A**.

The price for this convenience? Your labor is stolen from you in ever increasing amounts along with your freedoms. That price is too high. You can keep the cradle to grave BS.

In my line of work I meet many college ( B.S. M.S. PHDs ) educated people. Do you know what their religion is? ENVIROMENTALISM. Global warming is a big thing with these folks. Talk about Jesus Christ and they'll give you an argument on many fronts, even if he existed. Talk about global warming and they'll tell you that it's a fact. The problem with global warming is that the evidence says, "?????" ( Personally, I don't believe it exists ) . They also believe that we must go to ANY lengths to acheive this noble goal of 'controlling' the earths temperature. The amazing thing about this religious zeal is the haughty arrogance of mere humans to think that THEY can change the temperature of the earth. I wonder if these college edu- ba- cated people have ever heard of this ball of burning hydrogen in space that we call the sun?

The point of this Selby is simple. These folks will go to any lengths to destroy individuals in the name of some greater good. It's just that 'they' need to be anointed to do the task, and in the process the rest of us must be subservient to them. All for our own good, of course...

Funny how history repeats, isn't it?

Moregold, when an exchange is delisting a company, what is the difference between 60 cents a share and 10 cents a share. Nothing.

The closing AMEX price is completely unrelated to the price it may command ultimately upon the NASDAQ. When it trades on a related exchange, it can just as quickly bounce up 50 cents as it bounced down 50 cents in the last half hour trading on the AMEX.

Suffice it say, most of the tax loss trading is finished now.

Actually, PGU was smart not to fight AMEX to retain its listing. It is nothing but a futile waste of corporate resources and time. Instead, the company can now go about its business without regular interference by creditors, share regulators, etc.

Once again, I urge gold investors to respect this company and its problems. The company simply put too many eggs in one mine and, like other gold producers, simply never imagined gold trading below 300 an ounce. However, there are many other gold companies that could be in the same position ( but for the grace of God ) .

Pegasus will probably end up being one of the sacrificial lambs needed to convince CB's, gold short sellers, and gold antagonists in general that the gold industry is headed for a shut- down at current gold price levels.

Ergo, they must ask themselves a very significant question: where will they get their gold in the future to cover their short sales and loans?

As a sacrificial lamb whose downfall is alerting the entire world to the precarious position of the gold mining industry, then Pegasus should be afforded some degree of respect rather than derision.

T1:

Previous posts by others re bonding, Montana greenies,and possible fallout from the Pegasus reorganization are all cogent. But, in a nutshell, MacDonald Meadows has too many ounces at open pittable depth to not get mined eventually. Look for a major to step in and snarf up Canyon after some critical permitting hurdle is attained. Personally, I am looking for Anglogold to make a serious N. American acquisition after it finishes gobbling up Minorco's gold interests ( J. Disney disagrees, however ) . Canyon might be just the morsel they are looking for....

I am an infrequent poster but frequent lurker. Thank you for many fine posts in the past.

Carpe aurum,

Haulpak

Well said, Sir!

As long as we are all in a jocular mode, this bud's for you:

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/6284/BILLDVL.GIF

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/6284/BILLDVL.GIF

http://www.cninews.com/CNI_FTDAlien.html

ANOTHER is Swiss.

One of these days when you've some time on your hands, you should hook up with my brother in Kew, Victoria. Hell of a great fellow...mech. eng., geophysics degree and airline captain for Ansett. Good oil finder and heady in investments. He really likes rocks...I tore up his rock collection when we were kids and he's still pissed all over. Let me know if you head that Melbourne way. Says he's never comin' back to the states...loves it down there.

http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/240506.html

The Preacher says: After REPENTING of its new low, Gold has leapt off the floor with STRONG CONVICTION; The first step to a new bull market is to RISE ABOVE the December high of $297.50. Having accomplished this first goal, the next one will be to remain above last Monday's low on the ensuing pullback.

If that test gets past, we should be in Hog HEAVEN.

If we get a SANCTIFIED run in the gold price, then there are a great many Canadian mining stocks that will double- quadruple in price in a real hurry. That's because with gold in its present SINFUL CONDITION, very few mines are worth very much. But add about $25 to the gold price and mines start becoming economic which will bring back speculative interest.

With the winter drilling season JOYFULLY SINGING, there will be some big surprises to the upside.

Dare I mention the name of one or two or three of the most promising? The preacher wouldn't want to be accused of being a HYPOCRITE nor a gold- stock promoter. So, if someone wants to HEAR THE WORD on the preacher's top three Canadian mining stocks, say AMEN and I'll come SHOUTIN'. ( One hint: the properties are in Ontario, Guyana, and Mexico. )

The Preacher

PS. Last week I read Puetz's post then went and told the CONGREGATION the Dow would see God's JUDGEMENT on Monday. They are not too happy with me. The OFFERING was definitely on the skinny side this morning. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

It's a long way to Tippararay from Kalgoorlie......... Melbourne, THAT's in the Eastern States!

I will keep your offer in mind.

Aurophile: I think a lot of us use TA but it's mostly the funnymentals that get discussed. In the last year I've learned a bit about e- wave analysis and I'm getting more comfortable with it all the time. As I was learning about it I followed that 5th wave down that started about Mar 97 and ended in Jul 97. That and the beautiful wave I that we appear to be in now has sold me on the subject.

BTW, your Silver Rally Ahead? of last year helped me get positioned for my best gains ever in silver. The amount in my account doubled. Since that time I've learned some hard lessons about silver futures and about myself. I'm a programmer/analyst, thus implying that I have a modicum of intelligence ( my wife wouldn't necessarily agree ) , and learning how to trade silver futures is the hardest thing I've ever attempted. But it sure is a BLAST!

Let me finish with a question. APH, whose initials I'm sure you're familiar with, has been making some great silver calls the last few weeks. At this point he feels we have finished wave 4 of I and have started into wave 5 of I. Would this fit your own analysis? I thought we might still be in wave 3 of I ( recently finished wave 4 of 3 of I and going into wave 5 of 3 of I ) but I trust APH's TA more than mine at this point.

Cheers and good trading to you...

Jim Blanchard interview? Does anyone have information or url about the outcome of reported interview with Venerosa?

Yes, Preacher, please give the symbols. I own over a dozen at this time and continue the hunt for future value. Unfortunately, no one has ever accused me of being meek.

gracias mi amigo escoss!

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 20:35
Ziva ( OLDMAN Vs ZIVA ) ID#302251:
OK.......... THE BATTLE- LINE IS DROWN
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

***********************************
Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 00:08
Oldman ( Gold Bottom ) ID#199183:
Ziva: I am still of the opinion that gold has NOT bottomed yet.
I am NOT of the opinion that it will fall to $250 retroactively:
I do think the price will hit the 250 range soon, however.
***********************************

OLDMAN.....one of the most respected people in Gold trading.
A person of wonderful personal integrity,
very rarely matched today. A person with class.
A humanitarian, philosopher and philanthropist .
A person of deep ethical convictions
and thorough knowledge of history.
A person with many successful years of GOLD and stocks trading.
A person which I am humbly honored to share this forum with.
( I realize some question: what in the h_ll am I doing at Kitco ) .

OLDMAN said ........GOLD at 250 soon.
ZIVA said ( Dec.29.1997 ) : GOLD BOTTOM WAS AROUND 280

Ziva.......a simple woman who likes to be a tail to the KITCO lions
with hope to learn something eventually.
Betting the whole farm that Gold has bottomed around 280.
With no GOLD trading knowledge,
Ziva used just common sense.

*******************
Date: Fri Jan 16 1998 14:36
Ziva ( GOLD IS AT THE BOTTOM ( Dec.29.1997 ) ) ID#302251:
My husband said that from all the famous psychics in the USA,
only Sean David Morton has 100% accuracy rate
about Stock Market trends. My husband wish to pass to you that
this scientist/psychic said on Dec- 29- 1997 that:
...now is the time to buy GOLD.
Sooooo Faaaaar he is correct.
I listened to that interview at:
http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/archive.html#dec97
Click on Dec- 29
*******************************


Where is Mike Sheller today ?
280 was the bottom.....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 20:14
Ziva ( ANOTHER IS JAPANESE ??? ) ID#302251:
Haggis_A: Re: your 01:06 AM post

No, I dont think that ANOTHER is Japanese.
My grandson is married to a Japanese.
ANOTHERs style, vocabulary, sentence structure,
do not resemble A Japanese person.

Also, Japanese are not outspoken,
and they have a tendency to stay in a group,
not single themselves out on the Internet.

Also, ANOTHER replied immediately to questions put to him.
This is a clear indication that he is NOT a Japanese.
It takes a LOOOOOng time to get a reply from a Japanese, IF EVER.
Japanese culture trained them
NEVER TO REVEAL THEIR TRUE FEELINGS.
Never to reveal their opinions OR SECRETS.
And you are trying to convince us that ANOTHER is Japanese?

My friend who is married to a wonderful Japanese lady told me:
....it took me 15 years before I discovered that I never knew my wife,
and that I will never know her....
For a Japanese to go on the Internet,
and talk to the whole world,
is almost as unthinkable as,
as,
as,
as .......Ziva, NOT being on the Internet.


SO, who could ANOTHER be ??
One of us mentioned that he may be the Sultan of Dubai.
I doubt it, the Arabs are a proud people,
they have class ( a rare commodity in our western world ) .
The Arabs will not bother to talk to us.
They see us ( and justifiably so ) as a despicable, degenerate culture,
who prostituted any elementary sense of ethics
by being totally one sided
in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Knowing the Arabs very well ( I am Jewish ) ,
it is inconceivable to me that one of them
will go out of his way to enlighten us regarding GOLD.
Just take a walk on the streets of any of our AMERICAN cities
and look at the idiotic miserable faces of our young generation.
Than walk on the streets of any major Moslem city
and compare their youth to ours.
You will understand immediately why the Arabs would not talk to us.

BTW, FWIW, IMHO,
ANOTHER may be Chinese, BUT not from China.
What do you think ?

PS:
Another photo of our beloved President:
http://www.cseti.org/programs/quote.htm


280 WAS THE BOTTOM
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Quite interesting reading. Sorry that Jim Rodgers was limited to a comment that commodities were headed higher ( except gold ) . Wish he could have elaborated more. Felix Zulauf was very positive on gold a year or so ago but I failed to see any supporting comment so far in this discussion.

APH is a good cyberfriend, an excellent Elliottist ( I agree with his silver call ) , and a damned fine judge of most things.

Is it a far- fetched concept that Fed chairman Alan Greenspan may come out one of these days and announce that the US central bank may consider buying gold? Think about it...he's talking about deflation now which would be disastrous for the US stock markets and this deflationary trend will accelerate if the rise in the US $ is allowed to continue unchecked. As it is now, more and more american multinationals are blaming the strong $ for failing to meet their earnings expectations. The strenght of the $ is hurting their exports, primarily to Asia but also around the globe ( it's also responsible for the plunge in commodity prices but that's another story ) . If this is allowed to continue, demand for US products and services abroad will increasingly diminish.

I watched Bill Clinton's speech on CNBC last Thursday where he spoke about pockets of high unemployment in and around some major US cities. Having the lowest unemployment levels in decades doesn't seem to be good enough for Mr. Clinton...he wants even lower unemployment. Well, he's not going to achieve lower unemployment in the US as long as the $ keeps strenghtening. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

The way I see it, Mr. Greenspan will have to find a way to lower the value of the US$ without having to ease monetary policy ( which is something he has stubbornly resisted even in the face of the current economic chaos in Asia ) . So, how many options is the Fed left with in lowering the value of the $ without lowering interest rates?...not many. One of the most plausible and economically desirable options for the Fed would be to sell the US $ to buy gold.

Panda: I don't know what you are talking about but its is clear it is not what I was talking to oris about. Seems we were discussing the existence of a Canadian constitution and what it means to have more than 1 view on a topic. I think its a great idea to have the freedom not to have the whole world believe exactly the same way on all social issues.
Do you?

Why do you think so ?

There's been some talk tonight about Canyon Resources. I'll talk to Cheryl Martin tomorrow, Lord willing and have a complete SERMON afterwards.

But another company with a similar name, Gold Canyon Resources ( GCU.Vancouver ) . Last year it reached C$5.00. Today, it's less than C$1.00. The gold is still there. A drill program is just about to get underway and the fur could start flying.

Also, the most unknown mining company with a great future, Guyana Goldfields ( GGFI.Canadian Dealer Network ) They continue to build a gold deposit and intend to actually MINE it, not JV it. Serious fellows.

And, of course, there's always Minefinders Ltd. ( MFL.Vancouver ) It has a 2 million ounce ( gold equivalent ) deposit and just announced 21 more holes on Friday. 19 of them hit and the deposit expands. There's also C$9 million in the bank and a price of about 40% of its level last April.

The prices are: GCU - C$.90; GGFI - C$.85; MFL - $1.85. It's Jan. 18. Write down those prices and the date. I'll look at them again in one month and we'll see where we are.

This is not an offer to buy or a recommendation to buy. Mercy, there are hundreds of stocks in an undervalued condition right now in Vancouver, Alberta, and Toronto.

The Preacher

http://www.asia1.com.sg/biztimes/1/focus14.html

Here is one of the quotes from the article with which Haggis has refreshed my flagging neurons: "Actually Japan did try to add some gold to its foreign- currency reserves when gold coins minted in honor of the emperor were melted down in 1995.

Though their monetary value was only about $700 million, the Department of the Treasury signaled its displeasure. This is an indication of how nervous

U.S. monetary authorities are about the addition of gold to Japan's reserves."

http://www.asia1.com.sg/biztimes/1/focus16.html

Thanks for the thoughts on CAU

and here is another:

"One rumor that refuses to go away is that in the course of Japan's postwar occupation by the United States, Tokyo entered into a secret pact with

Washington not to convert its foreign- currency reserves into gold even if they swell. If both countries then reached an unspoken agreement based on

such a pact to the effect that Japan would help America maintain the dollar regime, the prime minister's remark might have far more significance than

one can read from the words themselves. It could be a message stating that Japan has changed its mind about always observing the unspoken

agreement faithfully."

Has AU down 2.7/ is that accurate and from here does it come. Coments.

Reminds me of an "old" Alexander Brothers song.....

"I'm Nobodies Child".................

Preacher: I would like to hear your top 3 mineing stocks. Thanks

"The banks have not issued a demand for repayment,'' said Nennecker, who
blamed low gold prices for Pegasus's problems.

The problem was too many eggs in the Mt Todd basket, an incorrect bankable feasibility study, and non- resolved operational issues. Above this, bad management.

It was NOT the gold price.............................

The TSE has not delisted PGU yet ( although there is a good chance it will ) . There are a lot of people out there who beleive this company won't
come up with a viable plan and will be liquidated i.e. shareholders get zippo. These people are/will be bailing out on the TSE at whatever price
the market sets, currently it's 11 cents - and thats the current value of the shares.
Any increase in the price is a matter of speculation by investors willing to risk new funds.
I have first hand experience with a few Gold companies going bad, and they seldom come back from this state.
If the stock is delisted and ends up on the pink sheets and/or the CDN network, it could drift for years and still go under.
Don't get me wrong, I hate to see Gold miners in trouble, but this is the reality of todays market, and I know too well how quickly a risky investment can turn sour.
Other recent examples KWG, ST. Gen.

I cannot for the life of me work out why you think ANOTHER is Alan Greenspan. I maybe wrong thinking that ANOTHER is Japanese, BUT in retrospect, looking at the "syntax", surely ANOTHER can be "non- other" than AL GORE..............it makes sense !!!!!!!!!

aurophile: I recently started posting due to the way I feel about the Year 2000 problem and how it is going to have a great effect on the PM's ( up ) and stock market ( down, down, down ) . I've been in the coding trenches for 25+ years and have read a great deal on the subject on the Internet. I think the majority of businesses and governments at all levels around the world have had their head in the sand far too long and are about to have it ( their head ) handed to them. Do you have any opinion on the subject in general and what it will do to the PM's over the next 2 years?

.

What's with the skyrocketing markets in Asia? What good news do they know which we don't? My suspician is that "fundamentals" aren't behind the rise, instead, there must have been yet another one of Puetz's weekly posts claiming a total meltdown on Monday leading to A U.S. stock market collapse. Hmmmm, a la your earlier post referencing last week

"Date: Sun Jan 18 1998 17:20
Realistic ( The carnage ) ID#410194:
I did stay tuned to Kitco last Sunday night January 11th and for the following days and what I noticed is the
most successful recovery week in the Asian equity markets in several months.

Date: Sun Jan 11 1998 15:41
Puetz ( bpuetz@holli.com ) ID#222167:
Only 3 more hours before the carnage begins is Asia.
Stay tuned to Kitco for the details.
The great stock market crash of 1998 is set to begin! "

Platinum Up $3.00... Silver flat........Gold however...

Japan is up 407 or 2.54%
Hong Kong is up 464 or 5.21%

EBN Gold down 2.30 at 288.45
EBN Silver up .01 at 5.85

I am always more than a little wary about Doomsday Prophecies in that we always seem to have more days than dooms; however, the little lady was, in a previous incarnation, a COBOL and RPG programmer. She says, "yep,it's all in there, compiled into oblivion." But I, who know nothing of such matters, keep wondering why they can't just dump their data into an entirely new data base...............

Malaysia up 9% , even spoos up 330.

Gold should be rising with the Asian markets. Go figure.....

Just read thru your post last night, here are some thoughts on this subject.
I believe Japan is very concerned about the "cozy" Economic and even stratigic military relationship being cutured between China and tthe US.
China had nearly a 50 billion US$ trade surplus last year alone, and is eatimated to grow to $90 Billions in a few years, with Billions more pouring in. They also hold substancial amounts of US$ Debt, Many stratigic
thinkers in the US are very concerned about this "cozy" relationship
for obvious reasons but have not thought thru what SE Asia will
look like say 5- 10 years from now, ( preferring to beat inflation ) given Chinas growing nationalistic prowess, and their history of brutal dictatorships and domination of region.

Also witness Cohen's vist today for talks, as well as the unprecedented invitation by the Chinese to visit one of their top military installation near
Beiging, as well as last years historic visits by heads of the Chinese military to US top military facilities and the numerous visits by each others navy to respective countries. IMHO something is certainly up and the Japanese are rightfully concerned, unable to militarize as part of their
surrender to the US and Japan having fought serious wars with China, I believe they are and have been worried about feeling left out and unarmed. As M. Gaye would say What's Going On?
I recall last year when big headlines were made by a US soldier based
there who apparently raped a local girl, and the cries from the residents
to oust the US soldiers, so it would not take much to oust US Troops.
I believe that Japan has historically viewed itself as THE power
of said region so I don't believe they are just going to roll over.
I think Taiwan is going back to China. It's a done deal.

However an alliance with China is also a possible, soon though,while Japan is at least an economic superpower, and since they share a common acenstry if not many customs and values that are not shared by the West. I believe this to be the probable scenario with a new Asian currency backed by some Gold to share "world throne" as world reserve currency with the US and the Euro. It will be a crowded "throne" to say the least.

Where in the Art Bell show does he make the Gold comments ???
I've been listening for 1/2 hour......

A scotsman was walking down the street and passes a hardware store
advertising a cut- price sale on a chainsaw that is capable of cutting
700 trees in seven hours. The scotsman thinks ...t"hat 's a good deal", and decides to buy one.

The next day, he comes back with the saw and complains to the salesman
that the thing ..."didn't come close to cutting down the 700 trees", the
advert said it would.

'Well,' said the salesman, 'lets's test it out at the back.'

Finding a log, the salesman pulls the starter cord and the saw makes a
great roaring sound.

'What's that noise?' asks the Scotsman.

Moregold, yes, it's true, there is a good possibility that PGU is finished forever. It is really a function of the the bankruptcy court's predisposition and the lawyers who represent the corporation. In PGU's favor, they are quite a bit more substantive than the other companies you mentioned. Moreover, in favor of PGU, they are not dealing with preferred shareholders or bondholders...only banks and common shareholders.

Ultimately, I believe PGU's fate will be linked to the price of gold. If the indications are for a continued malaise ad infinitum, then yes, I suppose the company will be liquidated. On the other hand, if gold should suddenly spike and show indications of a genuine revival, then PGU should be viable.

Haggis, again, I advise you not to sneer at PGU's misfortune. The management certainly was not conservative in their approach...but their policy derived from a fundamental belief that the floor of gold was nowhere near where it seems to be.

Many of the hallowed Aussie golds you have recommended could just as easily be on the chopping block within the near- term if gold bee- dives to 250 ( as gold bears project ) . I guarantee you that there are many gold producer managements that cannot conceive of such a price and act accordingly. For example, at 250 an ounce, Normandy will be the next gold bankruptcy in Australia.

ANORTHER is not from Russia.

Knows too much...

aurophile, you asked: "keep wondering why they can't just dump their data into an entirely new data base"

Its like with creating new fundamentals for a currency ( or gold ) - it does not happen overnight ;- )

Re: Silverbaron's question of who owns the silver that was leased out. I guess I was a bit confused with the question because that silver is gone, so nobody owns it. Now think I see the question - did the CB's own it in the first place before they pissed it away on the lease scam? My opinion is yes for two reasons. One, silver, like gold, was accumulated by CB's or their predecessors for hundreds of years, but because silver ceased being an official monetary metal long ago, there was no reason to publish ownership amounts. As you know, the CB's let you know what they want you to know. Even now, very few officially acknowledge gold loan amounts, and it's obvious that is big business. Two, only an institution whose ownership of a valuable commodity was left in the hands of some kid technocrat, who could care less about something he personally didn't own, would be so stupid as to engage in the loan scam. I find it hard to imagine a real owner getting duped by the shear idiocy of metal lending. Goodnite.

Sec. Ruben did say several weks ago that there is an agreement betweent the US and Japan re: US$/Bonds and the YEN. Implying that there was nothing to worry about. Everyone keeps talking about how bad off Japan is; IMHO they look pretty friggen strong. They would not have to do much

HighRise

Of course, guys, me means that ANORTHER = ANOTHER

...I bet I am from Russia..., me shames myself
for such English...damn system of Russian education...

Oris, ANOTHER is not from Russia?
What makes you so sure? He may have spent last 20 years in exile in Siberia. Gave him a lot of time to think about things. Hey, Lenin started the same way and look where it ended ;- )

European banks face Moody's downgrade
SHEEL KOHLI in London

Moody's Investors Service, the United States credit rating agency, has put on negative review a raft of leading European banks, as fears heighten that the full impact of Asia's economic crisis is about to be
felt in Europe.

Britain's Standard Chartered, and Germany's Commerzbank, Westdeutshe Landesbank, Norddeutsche Landesbank and Bayerische Landesbank, are all facing the threat of possible rating downgrades, Moody's said.
France's Credit Lyonnais, which it said also had "very large" credit ties in Asia, is on ratings watch, and the agency has warned that other French banks could come under the spotlight.

http://www.scmp.com/news/template/templates.idc?artid= 19980119003053015& top= biz& template= Default.htx& maxfieldsize= 2806

Ted Butler: There is a case to be made for the proposition that it is a GOOD THING for the CB's to be stripped of their bounty. After all, their masters have have totally bolixed the whole currency regime for 60+ years. There is no money anymore, only debits and credits, and one doesn't want either. Why trust real money to governments anyway!? HUH?

Miro, ANOTHER said something like standing in the sand
and thinkink.... Where did you see sand in Siberia, I am
not even talking about thinking in Siberia. What they do
in Siberia is ...drinking.

Lenin? Hmmmm. let me think, but first let me drink...

For you.

- Buy pre 1933 Gold coins ( not exactly my bag )
- Wheat will make large gains
- Tech Stocks will make enourmous gains ( I wonder if it's Y2K related? )
- Large power outages ( we have already had massive record breaking outages in New England and Quebec/Ont, although he did not mention Ice )
- Clinton thing heats up
- Viruses and plagues to hit US hard.
- UFO will be filmed
Hmmmmmmm

How right you are.
And, the Greens aren't the first primitive nature worshippers to appear in the 20th century either. That distinction belongs to the German National Socialist Party.

ADAM ENTOUS: Asia crisis sparks debate over U.S. priorities
Copyright  1998 Nando.net
Copyright  1998 Reuters

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review

WASHINGTON ( January 18, 1998 1:19 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - Bailouts for Asia's battered economies have sparked a debate in Washington over U.S. President Bill Clinton's economic priorities, and whether America is surrendering too much money and power to the IMF.

Lawmakers on the political right and left have cast aside their differences over the last week to slam the International Monetary Fund and the Clinton administration for putting together multibillion- dollar bailouts for Indonesia, South Korea and Thailand.

They are tapping into isolationist sentiments that were brought to the surface in last year's fight over fast track trade legislation and during the heated battle over the North American Free Trade Agreement ( NAFTA ) in 1993.

The debate over the IMF is expected to intensify when Congress reconvenes later this month. It will be asked to make nearly $19 billion available to replenish the lending agency's resources.

Already unpopular with lawmakers on furthest reaches of the political spectrum, analysts said more moderate legislators will start questioning why Washington supports the IMF and is bailing out its competitors as cheaper Asian products flood U.S. markets and the trade deficit balloons.

"Certainly the protectionists are going to be alarmed about that, and we're going to see pressure from them," said Morris Goldstein, a senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, a Washington think tank. The danger is that Congress will throw up barriers to these cheap Asian imports, and prolong and deepen the crisis, he added.

South Korea, Indonesia and Thailand have received billions of dollars in loans from the IMF in rescue deals backed by rich nations including the United States.

The Clinton administration, initially wary to get involved in the crises, has in recent weeks insisted Washington should play a bigger role.

Clinton has rushed to support the IMF and defend U.S. involvement in the bailouts. He dispatched Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers to the region a week ago, and telephoned his counterparts in Asia to discuss the crisis and to urge them to make reforms to stabilize their economies.

"There was a very serious risk of a contagion," Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin said on Friday. "I do think that by having gotten involved as vigorously and effectively as we have, that at least for now that process has been avoided."

But analysts say Clinton will have trouble convincing lawmakers because isolationists are better organized and wield increasing power in Congress.

NAFTA, ratified in November 1993, came under heavy fire from Democrats in Congress as benefiting the corporate elite and weighing on American workers by sending U.S. jobs overseas.

Last year, fast track was targeted by groups arguing that worker rights and environmental protections should play a greater role in U.S. trade deals. Unable to muster the votes needed, Clinton in November had to ask congressional leaders to take the bill off the floor of the House of Representatives.

Greg Mastel, an economist at the Economic Strategy Institute, said the IMF faces the same fate as fast track. "It is going to be a very tough sell," he said.

Conservatives argue that the IMF, by coming to Asia's rescue, was encouraging governments and international bankers to engage in ever- riskier business. Some of the more liberal Democrats accuse the IMF of propping up corrupt governments, and say the packages hurt the environment and workers while enriching international bankers.

"It's amazing to me that at the same time as many in Washington have told us that we have to cut back, that we can move forward with lightning speed to provide some $15 to $20 billion in loans to Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines and South Korea," said Rep. Bernie Sanders, a Vermont Independent.

Efforts are already underway in Congress to attach conditions on the IMF money. House Democratic Whip David Bonior, who was instrumental in last year's defeat of fast track, said labor and democratic reforms should be tied to the funding package.

Rep. Ron Paul, a Texas Republican, said he would introduce legislation to end all U.S. participation in the IMF. Other critics say Washington was surrendering its sovereignty to the Fund and that it should be put out of business.

"Not another dime should go to the IMF or its neo- socialist little sister the World Bank," former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan wrote in a recent column. "These leeches of American capital should have been exterminated like the parasites they are, decades ago."

Thought it was closed,but maybe I'm mistaken.Please advise.

Guest are guest, but.....

Remember a shocking incident in September 1995, the rape of a
schoolgirl by American servicemen on Okinawa, touched off an
unprecedented wave of demands for the closing down of U.S. bases.
The antibase movement has shown no signs of abating, and it required the
Prime Minister to resort to a form of emergency legislation in order to
let the Americans stay on.

Japans best form of "defence" is commercial attack, with the investment
of funds overseas - in real not apparent investments. The best example
of this is the investment in the US over the last 10 to 15 years, and
given todays scenario a further wave of overseas investment is required
- sink or swim ?!

The last imposition that this requires is a weak Yen and a strong Dollar
- something has got to give. It would appear that the US has set- up the
Asian economies for a short term "Kill". What is required is a longer
term definition, with both sides of the fence gaining: the fence being
GOLD.

There is only one "Almighty" on Earth, and sorry lads it is NOT the
Dollar !!!

The Asian situation started to make a bottom when Korea's current account
went to surplus. All of these countries are going to be having big
surpluses. Wonder how they're generating those surpluses when just
a couple months ago they had deficits? Who could they be selling to?
Could it be us?

DA ZDRAZTVUYET PYERVIYA MAYA DYEN MEZDYUNARODNYA
SOLIDARNOSTI TRYDYASHEEQSYA PROTEEV IMPERIALISMA EE ZA SOCIALISMA. For our Russian emigres/ I did my best.

Preview, international bonds: Investors lukewarm to heavy supply
MONDAY JANUARY 19 1998
By Edward Luce and Samer Iskandar

Judging by the state of the primary market over the past fortnight, 1998
promises to be a lively year for eurobond issuance. With more than $10bn
issued each week in the dollar sector alone, volumes are approaching the
robust levels witnessed during the market boom this time last year.

Take a closer look, however, and the situation does not seem quite as rosy. Rare names, such as Scottish Power and H.J. Heinz, could normally expect a rapturous welcome from institutional and retail investors. Although neither was by any means a failure, their offerings last week could hardly be described as blow- outs.

Similarly, experienced single- A borrowers such as General Motors
Acceptance Corp, which tapped the market for $2bn last week, and Ford
Motor Credit, which issued a $1bn bond the previous week, usually expect a little more than the respectable demand they saw.

"There has been a lot of supply and there's a lot more still to come but the level of investor interest doesn't really justify this," said one bond official in London.

http://www.ft.com/hippocampus/v7be62.htm

all US markets closed

Aurophile - Only $700 million? That's chump change for the boys at the treasury! Maybe Japan will wise up and decide that wild swings in the exchange rate of its' currency is not in its' best interests... Nah!

U.S., Japan, Europe mull creating a 'global central bank'
Copyright  1998 Nando.net
Copyright  1998 Agence France- Presse

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review

TOKYO ( January 18, 1998 9:19 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - U.S., Japanese and European financial authorities are mulling the creation of a new global body that would guarantee state and private- sector debts of countries in economic crisis, it was reported Sunday.

Central bankers and finance ministers of the Group of Seven ( G7 ) economic powers are expected to discuss the idea of setting up the "international central bank" at a late February meeting in London, the Mainichi Shimbun said.

The proposed bank would help ease current financial turmoil in Asia, the paper said in a front- page story from London.

"What is needed most for crisis- hit Asian nations are measures to keep private- sector banks' funds from fleeing overseas and call back funds that have already gone," Mainichi quoted unnamed financial officials as saying.

Plans to aid Asian countries would include a system in which the state would shoulder debts of private- sector banks and issue government bonds guaranteed by the proposed international central bank, the paper added.

I do not snear............ I was never a Pegasus share holder

Mt Todd.......

Stage 1, heap leach: made AU$0.5 million per month profit

Stage 2, CIL: got themselves in trouble, LOSS........

Moral of the stroy....stick to what you are good at !

A lot of people bought shares between US$ 8 and 16. They are not "happy chappies".

Now...........if only Mt Todd could be fixed !!!!!!!?

"Not another dime should go to the IMF or its neo- socialist little sister the World Bank," former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan wrote in a recent column. "These leeches of American capital should have been exterminated like the parasites they are, decades ago."

Futures markets I mean

Thanks, ROR!

Bolshoe Spasibo, tovarish ROR!

Next drink is for you - NA ZDOROVIE !

I thinks its called the greening of the reds.

Haggis__A ( Vronsky..........one for you.......... ) : Thx ol' buddy for the good laugh. On that happy note I'm going to hit the sack... and probably will dream about one of my heros... the greatest Scotsman whoever lived: the Incredible Andrew Carnegie ( 1835- 1919 ) . He was the only man in business who bested the legendary J.P. Morgan.

NOT ANOTHER CENTRAL BANK! The Soros International Bank for Reconstriction and Disgorgement?

WHO AR G SOROSs' BACKERS AGAIN................. !!!!!!!!!

WHO ARE ....... the largest backers of Banks and gold mining companies in th world !!!

Th wonder who......something beginning with R.......d !

tolerant1 ( central central bank? )
U.S., Japan, Europe mull creating a 'global central bank'

TOKYO ( January 18, 1998 9:19 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - U.S.,
Japanese and European financial authorities are mulling the creation of
a new global body that would guarantee state and private- sector debts
of countries in economic crisis, it was reported Sunday.

Off topic subject again. As of tomorrow, people in the U.S. will be able to turn off the air bags in their cars after they apply for and receive permission from the government to do so. Funny, I thought I owned my vehicle! Now an air bag does not affect the road performance of my vehicle, just my face during an impact. Incrementalism at its' best! This is how freedoms and constitutions are made meaningless, by legislation. You take an inch here, an inch there, and voila!

Now I have to ask for permission to remove something that I own.

Enough of the ranting. On to gold.

Is this another 'Long Weekend Special'? Run gold up on Friday only to take it down on Monday, when the U.S. markets are closed.

From my backyard to your viewing pleasure....ohmy.
http://www.calgold.com/
away


WHO AR G SOROSs' BACKERS AGAIN................. !!!!!!!!!

WHO ARE ....... the largest backers of Banks and gold mining companies in th world !!!

Th wonder who......something beginning with R.......d !

tolerant1 ( central central bank? )
U.S., Japan, Europe mull creating a 'global central bank'

TOKYO ( January 18, 1998 9:19 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - U.S.,
Japanese and European financial authorities are mulling the creation of
a new global body that would guarantee state and private- sector debts
of countries in economic crisis, it was reported Sunday.

My logic is kind of under influence right know, but
here is my take on your idea:

1. Siberia is rich in gold and oil.

2. Lenin spent only 2 years or so in Siberia,
not enough to learn about gold/oil problema.

3. So, he ended up without thoughts on this subject.

4. All he could do is to arrange for revolution, so the
whole world could get excited for 70 years...

5. ANOTHER, on the other hand, if proven to stay
20 years in Siberia, learned about gold/oil problema..

6. He ( she ) ended up with thoughts

7. All he ( she ) could do is to arrange for Kitcoties
to get excited...

I don't like both outcomes, let's ged rid of Siberia...

When a society, reaches the full hell, of the false security & status, that it's soul has been sold for; it is at the point of collapse, and rebirth. ( Oscar Ichazo )

At this rate of Central Bank creation, we could be witnesses to the most complex derivative to date yet, the fiat currency unit. :- ) )

Good night all......

aurophile: I'll let the little lady fill you in on the particulars but
basically, they can do what you suggest ( move data to another
database ) . It is also necessary to go in and change all the computer
instructions to work with 8 character dates instead of 6. The
problem is that this requires lots of time and resources ( money and
programmers ) and we as a nation and a world are short on both. If
businesses and governments had started this process years ago we
would probably be in fairly good shape but because it has been
ignored until it is too late we are going to reap a result that no one
can really quantify at this time.

Here is an article I read today that ought to make the hairs on
everyone's neck stand up.

NEW YORK, Jan 16 ( Reuters ) - Banking officials grappling with the
Year 2000 computer glitch are considering declaring a holiday on
Dec. 31, 1999, to pave a smoother road into the new millennium. . .
.

The proposal ``may offer meaningful benefits,'' said William
McDonough, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
Speaking at the SIA Year 2000 conference in New York, he added,
``we have to do it either soon or not at all,'' to minimize costs. . . .
George Colony, president of Forrester Research Inc., stood behind
the idea of a one- day holiday, although he also said that two or three
consecutive holidays would only serve to ``lengthen out the pain.''
Forrester conducts studies into the potential impact of the Year 2000
bug and recently said financial systems would be among those most
affected by the Year 2000 problem.

After interviewing 51 information technology executives, Forrester
also reported that 52 percent of respondents have run into date-
related problems already, including an insurance company that cited
incorrect calculations for payment schedules involving long- term
coverage plans. . . .

``If the decision is not made by March of this year, we may as well
not make it,'' said Richard Lindsey, director of Market Regulations at
the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Link:
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/986

This ought to give everyone a clue as to what is coming down the
pike. Obviously, the Fed is going to try and do this without creating
a bank panic of some kind. I wish them luck. And don't be too
surprised if that bank holiday gets extended into early Jan 2000. Of
course, right up to Dec 31, 1999 they will be saying "just one day."

If you would like to read something on the subject pick up Time
Bomb 2000 by Ed Yourdan and his daughter once it hits the book
stores. It might be in the stores by now but I recently heard it will be early Feb. Ed Yourdan is by no means a doomsday type of guy and the
book is targeted at those that are not familiar with IT. If you would
like a couple URL's to visit regarding Y2K just ask away.

Tokyo pulls Asian markets up in regional surge


Copyright  1998 Nando.net
Copyright  1998 Reuters

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review
For up- to- date information on stocks, visit Nando's Stock Server

TOKYO ( January 18, 1998 10:49 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - Asian stock markets lit up on Monday helped by Tokyo, where hopes grew that the government is prepared to take action to revive Japan's economy and contain the regional financial crisis, brokers said.

Japanese stocks, which gained more than six percent on Friday, climbed another two percent by midday on a report that the government may take action that would affect the sagging stock market before major companies close their books for the fiscal year on March 31, they said.

Regional markets surged on hopes that the worst of the Asian financial crisis may be over, following high- profile visits by top U.S. and IMF officials last week to the region.

Jakarta stocks rose 5.29 percent in early trade, Kuala Lumpur's key share index jumped 7.14 percent by 10:34 p.m. EST and the market barometer in Singapore rose 2.71 percent by 9:21 p.m. EST. Big rises were also recorded in Seoul, Manila and Hong Kong.

"The rise is based on overseas markets. So long as people feel the outlook is improved and it's time for some nibbling in, we'll see short- term gains," a brokerage dealer in Singapore said.

The rise in Tokyo came on top of reports that the ruling Liberal Democratic Party is putting together another package of stimulus steps in March that would include further income tax cuts and the front- loading of public works spending.

Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, whose support rating slipped according to a poll reported over the weekend, has pledged to do whatever it takes to keep Japan from triggering a global meltdown.

The key Nikkei stock average advanced 407.10 points, or 2.54 percent, to 16,453.55 by midday.

The rally in Tokyo stocks had a dampening effect on the dollar, which tumbled to below 128 yen as operators unwound their long dollar positions amid improving sentiment for the yen.

By 10:47 p.m. EST, the dollar had pared some of its losses and was standing at 128.10/20 yen. It stood at 129.25/30 yen and 1.8330/40 marks in late New York on Friday.

In Seoul, foreign investors were returning in droves, with the composite index up 5.11 percent to 521.27 points at 0145 GMT.

Investors in Manila were cheered by the regional rise and the strengthening peso, pushing up the main index by 5.64 percent, or 94.51 points, to 1,771.14.

Hong Kong's Hang Seng Index echoed the rise in Asia, opening 3.57 percent higher at 9,217 points and quickly extending gains to trade up 4.99 percent at 9,344.

"The market is oversold," said Percy Au- Young, sales director at DBS Securities. "I think in two weeks you'll probably see the market go up to about 10,000 and at that level it would have to find its new direction."

Jakarta, another market hit hard by recent turmoil in the region, posted huge gains in early trade, buoyed by news that some leading banks have basically agreed to merge.

Dealers said Wall Street's pre- holiday gains on Friday had also boosted regional sentiment.

The Dow Jones industrial average gained 61.78 points to 7,753.55 on what analysts said was speculation that the Japanese government would take strong action to revive the world's second- largest economy. New York financial markets will be closed on Monday for the Martin Luther King holiday.

In regional currencies, the Australian dollar was quietly consolidating its sizable offshore rally at a thin midsession with support stiffened by a surge in the yen against the dollar.

In the precious metals market, gold opened easier as profit- taking pressured it after sharp rises in New York on Friday, dealers said.

Bullion opened at $288.60/289.10 an ounce against New York's $289.90/290.40 close on Friday.

By ALLEN WAN, Reuters

Today..........
Oil is worth say.........US$ 15, plus XX gold per barrel

Future.........
OIl may be worth say.....US$ 15 ( + or - ) , plus ( XXX or X ) gold per barrel


So, in the future, what are the relative values oil, US$ and gold? Which will be up or down?!

ANOTHER recons that Oil will bid for Gold directly ..........

Lets have some bets !!!!!!!!!!

The CB's are not going to be stripped of gold in general. They intend to have enough on hand to manage the inflation perception by managing the price. Now, if this lease/loan thing has gotten away from them, then ...

There is so much loose cannon liquidity floating around looking for a bargain and to divversify and the Asian markets are so thin, that those markets will bounce on any official words of encouragement. The Funds are just shooting craps.

The problems in Asia are books cooked so thoroughly and an ethic that says hide your loss of face in the Cayman's so that nothing on paper is above suspicion.

And how would the Japanese go about accumulating gold, practically speaking ? If it becomes clear the Japanese are giving up the Paper Chase who, anywhere, would sell gold for paper ?

Thanks amigo. Well, I have to get my beauty sleep and get all rested up for the MLK Jr festivities. Cheers all. bbml.

TICKER TALK: Wall Street sequel - Another soft landing?
Copyright  1998 Nando.net
Copyright  1998 The Associated Press

Nando's special report: 1997 Year in Review

NEW YORK ( January 18, 1998 9:01 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - - Veterans of the great bull market for stocks will recognize a familiar phrase as talk begins to stir on Wall Street of a "soft landing" for the economy this year.

The term embodies an important principle that has helped stock prices to soar all through the 1980s and '90s. Instead of a recession or credit crunch every three or four years, the U.S. economy seems to have found a way to smooth out the bottom part of the economic cycle.

There was, by official measurements, a recession that lasted two or three quarters in 1990- 91. Otherwise, every time the pace of business activity has slowed over the past 15 years, the economy has managed to pause and recover its strength without any serious upsurges in unemployment, inflation or interest rates.

The expansion of gross domestic product, or the total output of goods and services, has slowed, but not stopped or turned negative, as the economy has weathered such jolts as a precautionary tightening of credit conditions by the Federal Reserve Board.

Hence the description "soft landing," for a maneuver that gets a high- flying economy back to earth without damaging the equipment or shaking up the passengers very much.

Now, a new source of turbulence looms in the form of the Asian financial crisis, which has already begun to dampen demand for U.S. exports and to chill the expansion plans of a good many international businesses.

That has set economists to lowering their predictions of U.S. GDP and corporate profits this year, and to debating the chances for a painful spell of deflation spreading outward from commodity prices to incomes, profits and maybe the values of financial assets like stocks.

"The Asian crisis has converted deflation from a theoretical risk into a clear and present danger, in my opinion," says Edward Yardeni, chief economist at Deutsche Morgan Grenfell Inc. in New York.

A soft landing could save the day, however. In the optimists' scripts, the U.S. economy proves able to weather the storm because of its many strengths, including robust consumer optimism, technological innovation and improved productivity.

As investment managers at Bessemer Trust put it, "We will in all probability see some short- term market effects as a result of the recent events in Asia. We should not, however, confuse the disruptions in those countries with the fundamental soundness of the U.S. economy.

"Positive trends in employment, personal income, inflation and profit margins are not likely to reverse as a consequence of a slowdown in Asia. Growth will slow but it does not portend a recession."

Quite possibly, the Fed will lend a hand by nudging short- term interest rates lower to stimulate the flow of money through the banking system.

"Our forecast for 1998 implies that the U.S. economy will have its second soft landing in four years," says Hugh Johnson at First Albany Corp., a regional brokerage firm based in Albany, N.Y. "Although the risks are higher, we continue to believe that stock prices will be modestly higher at yearend."

The risks do appear to be pretty high, in part because investors' confidence in the chances for happy outcomes such as soft landings has become so pervasive.

In decades past, the stock market became famous for anticipating more recessions than actually occurred because it was so quick to shrink back at the mere possibility of a slump. By contrast, at its current levels it gives little evidence of discounting such a prospect.

So if a recession were in the offing this time, investors might be caught by surprise, and stock prices might have to decline considerably to take it into account.

By CHET CURRIER, AP Business Writer

Grant@16:27 sat, 1/17 Excellent point!! Where indeed would the world be if we ( US ) were to
have run amok as did tojo & co w / Hitler and Mussolini, not to forget stalin and ol' mousey
dung??
2BO02B.: Re yours of 17:00 or thereabouts on Saturday!
I recently read an article which outlined a study done for the express purpose of learning why
and from whence the gun violence in our Nation comes.
A close look at demaogaphics here and abroad as well as a very close study and comparison of
cukltures here and in lands from which many of our citizens come.

To cut to the chase: Germans in US had approximately the same level of gun and other
violence as do the Germans still residng inthe homeland.
Spanish, French, British, Irish, Japanese, They as well mid easterners, Mexicans and other
south amercian emigres had almost the identical rates of violence coincident with their countries
of national origin. . africans of several nations on the continent were in the study also. They were
no different from the other nationalities in the study!
To shorten the story: the fact of the matter was- - since violence is LEARNED BEHAVIOR the
original national and/or ethnic culture gruop was a major determinanr in the ratio and degree of
violence practiced by the U.S. populace.

Brits had a very low incidence.Period! Irish only a little more in spite of IRA! Germans
miniscule, and so on!
Africans had nearly the same ratio as did their cousins. Mexicans and mid- easterners also.

Swiss, with every male from age 100 down t0 18 having been trained and given a
GOVERNMENT supplied gun to TAKE HOME, had an extremely LOW ratio of crime, gun or
otherwise.


In spite of what the anti- gun forces tell us, people will be people. They usually behave in the way
they have beeb programmed to behave
.
Even those of us who have had the government sanctioned training which teaches us to solve
problems by breaking things and killing people. Known as military or war games or whatever!
When was the last time any of we vets killed anyone? Unsanctioned?

Burundi and congo as well as zaire and afghanistan have validated the point made by the study. How to defend 'gainst machetes in the dark, etc. if 2nd amendment were to be struck down?
Sorry I can't name the study. If someone else has read it, jump in and tell us where!!

As to a good all 'round piece ( rifle ) sks or ak47 or m 14 308. For the long stuff, I prefer my 1903
A3 remington, w/ scope. It works!!
My preference for side- arm is DAN WESSON 357. TRIED rUGER P89 dc AND IT DON'T WORK
FOR ME!

Right on,you have hit the nail right on the head...take it from
a used to be small business man from the heart of socalist Canada
who got tired of paying for the experimentation of reams of social
engineers to create their so called "perfect society"....and now I
spend my time learning from the great wealth of intellect that inhabits
the pages of kitco......many thanks to all of you,it's nice to know that
my intuition was right,that something about this human environment we are creating has gone awry...I only wish that I had been wrong...once again
thankyou...and keep up the good work of educating the less enlightened
of us...

Brace yourself. January 22 is almost upon us. The stockmarkets day
of reckoning according to Decembers Astrological Investor.

If that really takes place I'm changing my faith, my broker and my
shorts the same day.

Thanks for the excellent post! Didn't think I would ever find so many points of view to agree with as I have on this site.

Isn't every Swiss household required to have a fully automatic weapon? It's a law to help provide for the defense of their country, but that was the intent of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as well. Notice I said intent and not the late 20th century interpretation.

U.S., Japan, Europe mull creating a 'global central bank'
TOKYO ( January 18, 1998 9:19 p.m. EST http://www.nando.net ) - U.S.,
Japanese and European financial authorities are mulling the creation of
a new global body that would guarantee state and private- sector debts
of countries in economic crisis, it was reported Sunday.

But, except for the Japanese, where is Asia ? Answer: the US is already selling those little biometric id cards to the Red Chinese.

Mozel: Just finished reading your ( 19:27 ) on the link between money and morality. In a word: excellent. Ayn herself could not have done a better job. ..... Just excellent.

The Preacher says: The markets are rising to the HEAVENS in Asia and gold is retracing part of last week's gains. Some of you seem worried, but I don't think it's time for fear; don't expect gold to move higher in a strait line. It doesn't logically follow that just because the same factors which help Asian markets also help gold, that gold should move in lock step with the Asian markets on a daily basis. There will be divergences from time to time.

As PROVIDENCE would have it, the Dow doesn't look all that bad, either. It's not far off its all- time high despite the carnage of the past four months. It has made four successively lower highs, the weekly stochastics are in mid- range ( about 60 ) , but the Dow is still far above its October low. It could make a run toward the all- time high during the next two weeks or so. Of course, things can change in a hurry.

If the world monetary system is now temporarily stabilized and the CBs are inflating to stave off further deflationary shocks, it may be a while before the public catches on. Someone knows, and that is why gold bottomed and U.S. bonds peaked on the same day.

The market will figure it all out soon enough. One word of caution, though. The big runup in gold Friday was certainly not confirmed by the other metals. It needs to surmount the Dec. high of $297.50 to get some credibility.

The Preacher

You Know You Are Addicted To The Internet When...

You refuse to go on a vacation spot with no electricity and no phone
lines.

Your bookmark takes fifteen minutes to scroll from top to bottom.

You begin to wonder how on earth your service provider is allowed to
call 200 hours per month "unlimited."

Your phone bill comes to your door in a box.

You move into a new house and decide to Netscape before you landscape.

All of your friends have an @ in their names.

The last girl/guy you picked up was only a jpeg.

You start tilting your head sideways to smile :- )

Your eyeglasses have a website burned in on them.

You don't know the sex of your closest friends because they all have
neutral nicknames.

You turn off your modem and get this awful empty feeling, like you just
pulled the plug on a loved one.

You refer to going to the bathroom as downloading.

You step out of your room and realize that your parents have moved.

You kiss your girlfriends home page instead of her.

You tell the cab driver you live at
http://123.elm.street/house/bluetrim.html

You actually try that 123.elm.street address.

You wake up at 3am to go to the bathroom and stop to check your e- mail
on the way back to bed.

You check your e- mail. It says no new messages, so you check it again.

Your fantasy dreams at night are in HTML.

...And the number 1 reason you know your addicted the Internet when...

You get a tattoo that says, "This body is best viewed with Netscape 3.0
or higher or Internet Explorer 3.0 or higher."

If you would could you email me with the citation for demographic article you mentioned. I am aware of multiple reproductions of the data concerning the northern European male factor for suicide, but taboos within the behavioral science community have made such violence studies as you describe extremely difficult to find.

gagnrad@hotmail.com

I suppose this entire thread hs only a tangential relationship to gold. Sorry.

How much gold for grain if you have none ?

Must aplolgize. Hadn't read but a couple posts on the subject before I responded. The study I mentioned has obviously been read by others who ( I believe ) were able to voice it more succinctly than did I. Thanks Oldman and others.
I'm gonna have to stay a little closer to the forum, I guess. Was gone to Tyler and Lindale TejaS FOR THE WEEKEND, SO MISSED OUT ON A LOT !!!