Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:03 - ID#335184)
MOZEL /HERE HERE ! It is obvious that "you stand in good with the the Lord & I want to decorate you
!" I have had the pleasure of reviewing some of your outstanding commentary over the last 18 hrs. & I want to commend & thank you for your contributions, no matter what that crusty crummugeon, Haggis A, may say !
His dispepsia will pass, but your ideas will linger. Here's a double shot of Wild Turkey in your glass !
Actually, I don't think he atacked your ideas, only your Americanism.
I have no prejudice against Americans, as I was lucky enough to have been born one, but Southern by the grace of God !


Tar Baby

Don't be so tough on us Yanks, just because we are inept empire builders compared to our Mater, Britannia. And another thing, don't call us all Yanks, as some of us are sensitive about our motherhood !

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:05 - ID#373336)
Can someone explain to me how a regions economy can, after years
of mismanagement and finally a bust, be brought back to healthy
after only six weeks of IMF intervention? I'm truly amazed that
the Asian crisis is over, according to the news and markets this
morning in Asia. I need an accountant like they have!!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:07 - ID#302251)
ALL: I just received this E- mail

As I always said: Murphy Law always works.
GOLD is going to the moon !!
( sorry OLDMAN )
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Subject: Egypt/Syria
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:56:24 - 0600 ( CST )
From: "STRATFOR Systems Inc."
To: ZIVA- who said that GOLD had Bottomed at 280


Stratfor's SHREDDER software:
Protect yourself and your data

Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
January 19, 1998

Mubarak Signals U.S. to Pressure Israel or Possibly Lose Egypt.
Egypt has become more direct in urging Washington to alter its course on
the Middle East peace process. Following a surprise meeting in Damascus
last Wednesday, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak joined Syrian President
Hafez Al- Assad in condemning Israel's "negative position" on the peace
process. The two leaders noted that Arabs still eagerly sought peace,
while the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sought to kill the process. They made it clear that they laid their hopes on the United States pressuring Israel to return seriously to the bargaining
table. Egyptian President Mubarak also took the opportunity to denounce
ongoing military cooperation and exercises between Turkey and Israel,
charging that such moves were directly targeted at Syria and could not be
tolerated by Arabs.

We have been reporting on Egypt's growing frustration with the Middle East peace process, especially Cairo's displeasure with Washington's firm
support of the Israeli position and its pressure on Egypt to join in
support of that position. Additionally, we have been following the ongoing realignment in the region, with Syria, Iraq, Greece and Russia on one side, and Turkey, Israel, Jordan and the United States on the other. The two wildcards in the region have been Iran and Egypt. Iran appears to be showing signs of, while not exactly supporting the United States, at least not joining the Syrian/Iraqi bloc. However, the sudden visit of Hosni Mubarak to Damascus raises the spectre of Egypt joining that alliance.

At this time, we believe that Mubarak's visit and subsequent statements
were only intended to do just that- - raise a spectre. Cairo is strenuously signaling Washington that current U.S. Middle East policy is putting Egypt in an untenable position both domestically and within the Arab world. Egypt must take steps to control its internal Islamic fundamentalist opposition. Furthermore, as a signatory to the Camp David Accord, Egypt will become increasingly ostracized and isolated in the Arab world if Israel continues to behave as it currently is toward the peace process.

Mubarak's visit to Damascus was a very public and ostentatious warning to
Washington that Egypt is flirting with the Syrian/Iraqi bloc. Mubarak was, in effect, waving his arms and shouting to Washington, "We're serious this time. You saw Sadat suddenly reverse himself regarding Egypt's relations with Russia. Don't miscalculate me. Don't let Israel put me in this impossible position. If you are going to let Israel run roughshod over the Oslo Accord, then there will be consequences."

Egypt does not particularly want to split with the United States and join
the Syrian/Iraqi bloc. Egypt has little to gain economically from such a
move, and billions of dollars to lose. Furthermore, an abandonment of its relationship with the United States would only serve to strengthen Egypt's fundamentalist opposition. It would be an acknowledgment that the past 20 years of Egyptian foreign policy were a mistake, and that the
fundamentalists were correct in their criticism of the regime.

The bottom line from Cairo is that Washington must choose between Netanyahu and Mubarak. They can't have both. Meetings this week between President Clinton and Prime Minister Netanyahu and Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat will show whether Washington heard the warning.


To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates
or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at,>, or send your name,
organization, position, mailing address, phone
number, and e- mail address to>

STRATFOR Systems, Inc.
3301 Northland Drive, Suite 500
Austin, TX 78731- 4939

Phone: 512- 454- 3626
Fax: 512- 454- 1614

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:10 - ID#257148)
It's that Mason-Dixon thing

Nick@C Look what you're missing out on ..newtron's 00:03. come out of the closet, the holiday's over, pity about the cricket, but what a side S.A. is turning out to be.


(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:27 - ID#339274)
FWIW ..Gold will go into seasonal weakness as of the 22nd ,
bottoming feb8- to make a top March28 an important cycle bottom will be
be made April20.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:31 - ID#302251)
We all know that the Gold market is manipulated.
So, what are we doing here at Kitco ?

whether the weight of events in 1998
will make it impossible for the manipulators to stop the avalanche.
And I am betting on GOLD to be well above 1000 by the end of 1998.
1998 will not be your usual investment year.
In 1998 all the market distortions that kitcoits pointed out
so eloquently, will be brought into balance.

Until then, we collect intelligence:

.......You must remember that in the intelligence world,
every truth is part lie and every lie is based on some truth.
If you try to separate the two,
you will only wind up confused and frustrated.
If you are an outsider,
you will slowly learn that there is no separation of the two...
the lies and the truth are just two of the many sides of the same
ever- flipping coin. If you are an insider, you will slowly and often painfully learn that sometimes the coin lands by chance,
sometimes the way it lands is rigged by you'll never know whom,
and that sometimes there is not even a coin at all.
If you are lucky and work hard, you will find some of the truth.
If you are lucky and work REALLY hard, you might find the WHOLE truth...
as someone wants you to know it.
If you are PHENOMENALLY lucky and really work your tail off,
you might even go on to find the REAL truth.
But no outsiders.. and in fact,
very few insiders ever... EVER... learn the WHOLE REAL truth.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:51 - ID#347457)
@oris (EB myself for this...)
Oris, are you still on? You said "me shames myself for such English...damn system of Russian education..."

You mean they taught you English? Lucky you. I had to take Russian instead, and after I landed in the US there was never time to take any formal English class - too much hassle at work. I had to pick up English just through reading and listening. Not enough and it sure shows : - (

Well, maybe when I retire, I would love to do that.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:51 - ID#335184)
Can any one post a long term chart on Platinum ? My record only goes back to 86. What did it do when AU spiked in 1980 ?


(Mon Jan 19 1998 00:56 - ID#252127)
Is the PPT in Asia tonite?

No telling what those guys will do with the taxpayers
Bill Siedman dispatched to Japan to rescue their banking industry. Naah

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:05 - ID#153102)
ziva Tar Baby earl
Ziva Victory to the market or we are enslaved.

Tar Baby earl: thanks for the kind words. re: the enemies of gold
No lawyer will explain how they get around the Constitution. They are all officers of the court and members of the bar. But there are people figuring it out. Right there even in the Tar Heel state. If you have a right, you don't need a license or a permit to exercise it. But you do have to know how to get the law on your own in a courtroom. They don't give you anything. And you can't be accepting or expecting anything from government but the law and national defence.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:10 - ID#41229)
March of 80 the low was $460 high of $1050.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:12 - ID#288140)
I remembered you like hot pickle with vodka. I just tried Maui ( brand ) Spiced Takuan ( hot radish pickle ) with vodka. One pickle makes straight vodka go down like water. I drink vodka fast enough anyway. Besides I like the taste of vodka. Just thought this phenomenon might be useful to others.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:16 - ID#41229)
Your cut off, no more beverages for you.{:+0 - {:+ )

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:17 - ID#24135)
Monday Morning Quarterback
Some interesting developments in RSA

1. An English speaking South African lady has applied

for residence in the US on grounds of anti White

racial prejudice in RSA. She has claimed that she is

disadvantaged by race to be able to find employment

in RSA because of their affirmative action program.

If this case is upheld, all White, colored, Indian,

and Moslem South Africans who are active in the

economy here will move to California or equivalent,

leaving RSA with a one way ticket to the iron age -

Mandela and Mbeki will be the bus conductors ( unless

they revise their programs - which they will of course

do - any body who knows ANYTHING about Africa knows

that Africans like to SAY one thing for mass consumption

then DO another thing to keep things cozy and stay out

of serious trouble ) .

2. I noticed nobody reported that man hours lost

to strikes in RSA were down to less that one FIFTH

of what they were 2 years ago. Why hasnt the man with

the strange name reported that?? Is it because it is

GOOD news and he is only in charge of BAD news?? Gee

Whiz - is this a case of "vested self interest"

( whatever that means ) .

3. Other mines that may be in trouble in addition to

Echo Bay ( 735,000 oz Canada ) and Pegasus ( Ive lost

touch with Pegasus because it looked so bad I took it

off the spread sheet - I know the Aussie part is

stuffed - what about the rest of it ?? ) -

Suggest take a look at

AMAX - 600,000 oz - USA

TVX - 400,000 OZ - Canada

Sons of Gwalia - 400,000 oz - Australia

Royal Oak 390,000 oz - Canada

Kinross - 420,000 oz - Canada

HOMESTAKE !!!! - 1,600 oz - USA ( Say it isnt so. )

Less bad

ERPM - 280,000 oz - RSA - RSA May GO

Libanon/Leeedorn - 480,000 oz - RSA Must GO

Lorraine ( avgold ) - 300,000 oz? - RSA MUST Go

I believe that the mines on the above list are

in MORE trouble than the remaining RSA mines ( with the

possible exception of the original DBN deep Shafts ) .

This will come as a big surprise to certain people.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:19 - ID#238422)
Yes, I graduated from so called "specialized English
language school". I think it gave me good basics of
language. However, when I landed in the U.S., I actually
learned English again, American English is different
from Moscow English. Did it in the same way as you did -
by listening. Sure, I could read, write and talk, but
I could not understand what these guys around were talking
about. It took 3 years, and you know, it's amazing, but
I really think in English now!!! Sometimes, it's easier for
me to talk English than Russian. The good part in picking
up the language has been complete absence of any
Russian- speaking people around, so my brain did not have
any "language competition" at all.

Your English is execelent and much better than mine.

I know that you guys in "the socialist camp" were
forced to learn Russian, I'm sorry, but it was not
my idea. In the former U.S.S.R. they teached students
English, German and French, English is the most popular.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:24 - ID#251129)
Gold to a 1000

Gold to well above a 1000 by the end of 1998, can you tell me more because Iam about to sell everything I own buy up and dig a foxhole ( WW3 ) . If it doesnt I might have to move in with you.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:29 - ID#288140)
oris, Miro
Both of you write with clarity. Can't say that for lots of others here, myself included, whose first language is English.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:37 - ID#153102)
from Zola
Behold a nation of sleepwalkers! Whats that alarm I hear? What is that
obnoxious gong saying? Something like:

If in 1965 you had taken $1 and placed it in gold, and another $1 and
placed it in the stock market, then as of December 1997 your two
investments would have yielded the same return. Each would have
increased in value about eight times, to about $8. Now, no one denies
that, by itself, gold is an unproductive asset. Gold hoarding doesnt
produce anything. There is something intrinsically absurd about digging
gold up out of the ground ( mining ) , turning it into gold bars, and
then burying it again in another hole, such as the vault deep
underground beneath the Federal Reserve Bank of New York in Lower
Manhattan. No, gold is not productive. But, if this is true, then what
does that say about productivity in American industry?

No. I dont want to hear this. What are you saying: that productivity
has been roughly zilch since 1965? What are you trying to imply?

The ratio of the Dow Jones Industrial Average to the price of gold
peaked in 1965- - a peak it only reached again in December 1997. If the
ratio now goes the other way, the value of stocks will fall relative to
the value of gold. If the ratio were to return even half way to its
level in 1980, there will be a murderous blood bath in the stock market.
But dont let me scare you. Im not one of those Jesus- is- Coming,
End- of- the- Age apocalyptists. One of those Year 2000 nuts. Im just
stating the facts.

Go away you demon voice! Leave us somnambulists in peace!

Behold a nation of sleepwalkers!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:38 - ID#238422)
I found it to be amazing that so many good big
American guys have no idea on how to drink.

I'm still educating local population on the subject
of correct way of drinking. I have a number of dedicated
followers who understood and enjoy. Some guys are still
resisting, they seems to be afraid even to try. I can not
get it.. They drink this strange liquid called Budweizzz.e.r
and call it beer, they mix heavy drinks with beer and
they think it's a right way?!? They harm themselves, and
I can not tolerate it. In science of drinking, the U.S.
is far behind...

When I retire, I'll write a book "Drinking Skills".

Try Black- n- White Smirnoff "Mellow" Vodka with
"Tony Packo's Original" Pickles. Do not mix beer
and vodka together.

If you like beer, the best is German and Cech, also
"Red Barrel" ( England ) is usually available in Meyers,
Samuel Adams "Scoth Ale" is good enough. Beer is good
with salty fish or salami, or with spicy meats, or
with shrimp/lobsters.

If you have any questions, ask.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:40 - ID#284255)
Chart of Platinum
Platinum chart back to 1977

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:44 - ID#344210)

The power behind
Branson's throne

Flushed out: the diageo
Woolly thinking
Ram- bo Bill springs back into trouble

PERHAPS it is the pressure of all those burst balloons, but
more worrying evidence is emerging of the idiosyncracies
of Britain's favourite walking grin, Richard Branson.

It was only last month that we started to compile what
have become known as the "B Files" ( with the disturbing
revelation that the Bearded One frames memorable letters
before going to bed ) .

The latest worries have come to light in a new magazine
that "outs" the big man as having adopted the ancient
Chinese practice known as feng shui. For those fortunate
enough to have avoided contact with the highly addictive
ailment, feng shui is the 3,000- year- old "art" of moving
your furniture around the house until you feel at peace with

It might be a traditional thing in China, but when
Westerners take it up psychologists usually diagnose it as a
symptom of Neurotic Nothing- To- Do Syndrome.
Becoming a disciple is not as simple as dialling Pickfords.
There are rules to follow - too much heavy furniture can
affect the Yin and Yang harmony and a nasty bookcase in
the wrong place can create "secret arrows" - something to
be avoided.

According to the imaginatively titled Feng Shui For
Modern Living, Beardo increasingly looks to feng shui to
give him that "little extra edge", along with Boy George,
who has always liked to put his furniture in unusual places.
"Branson never travels without first checking his
recommended correct feng shui directions and travel
dates," it boasts. Those who get it bad can be found
relocating their front door and garden path.

But the most important room in the house is the lavatory.
Branson's plays an important part in his current libel battle,
but it is not what was taken down there that matters, but its
location and the state of the lid - down, not up. All are
crucial to a good toilet experience, ensuring a steady flow
of feng shui - something Branson is positively full of, the
magazine assures us.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:47 - ID#252127)

You'd think this old hand would know better than try to spread all over the world. Better to be small and concentrate on and solve problems, than a big player loosing focus. Homestake, awaken to your quality roots and be your crusty old self again.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 01:49 - ID#288140)
Certain food goes best with beer rather than wine, I think. But mostly I drink cheap vodka. You will argue this point, I suppose. Cheers!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:00 - ID#153102)
John @RSA
How do you evaluate the political risk in RSA from day to day ?
My brother says a lot of SA are leaving just like they left SR now Z.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:00 - ID#238422)
Sam, I will not.

Cheap does not mean bad, but it's important to do
it in a right way. Vodka - fast shot ( like you said )
- first, pickle goes second. Then eat... Then repeat...
5- 6 1 oz. shots is usually enough. Beer... I like
strong beer, 5- 6% alc. at least, and I like tasty
beer.. and this is usually European style beer.
Now you can also get some good beer made in the
U.S. by relatively small guys, like Sam Adams.

Budweizer is not beer, it's something that I don't
know how to discribe, although may be good for safe
driving...but not for enjoyment.

I wish I could show you my way, are you in Michigan?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:00 - ID#41229)
You may pronounce that your not one of the bible thumpers testifying the end of the world is coming, nor would I suggest that. But if you would read the scriptures you would notice alot of similairities from what you profess and what is written.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:03 - ID#288140)
Where can I find Tony Packos? Maybe I can contribute something to your book. I have a few tips on dealing with hangover.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:06 - ID#238422)
Meyers usually has Tony Packo's on the shelf.

Your contribution will be sincerely appreciated.

Will stay in touch.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:08 - ID#153102)
I just posted that from Zola Times.
re scripture: everything is in there. but I'm not prohesying.
But Zola is: 1998 the year of the dominoes.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:09 - ID#238422)
Sam, BTW, hangover can be effectively fixed with
pickle juice - salty liquid in a can with pickles.

Old Russian secret...

Must go to bed now, good night.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:10 - ID#288140)
I am in golden southern Calfornia ( Camarillo ) . At one time, was known for state mental hospital, but we have grown out of that. We will have one of few military bases remaining soon: Point Mugu Naval Air Weapons Sation. Cool aircraft fly over my house daily.

Monkee Person
(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:24 - ID#288105)
It's not all about oil.
China's interest in expanding trade via the Silk Road coincides with U.S./Western desire to re- develop the financial markets in the Middle East. One clinker drops, resoundingly, into the pot - - Saddam Hussein.

The unanimous 9- 0 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court against the Clinton Administration's petition - - to have the current litigation post- poned until President Clinton's present term expires - - sends a signal to future U.S. Presidential candidates: Have a clean slate prior to entering the Oval Office for we will not dismiss apparently valid claims. And, any serious future candidates for the U.S. Presidency should remember that the skeletons in their closets will not forget that suit can be brought against a sitting U.S. President.

Monkee Person
(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:26 - ID#288105)
random remark @02:24
The second passage was just a random remark.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:36 - ID#288140)
Monkee Person
I remember hearing the term "silk road" but I forget what it means. Can you give short explanation?


(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:55 - ID#162309)
Goldman Sachs -- Metals R.I.P. and Y2K
During my short stay in New York last week, while I was interviewing for a position in the commodity research department of Goldman, Sachs & Co., I noticed two items of interest. First, in the office of the head commodities honcho were two huge binders. The label on these binders said "Metals - - R.I.P.". These binders were the manuals for a large piece of software used by the commodity traders at GS. It is probably nothing, but perhaps therein contains a clue to why the precious metals are being kept down. Second, I found out that GS HAS NOT STARTED ITS Y2K REMEDIATION EFFORTS. A couple of IT managers that I was interviewing with informed me that GS management is still bickering over which consultants to retain. They still haven't taken an inventory of all of their systems, although all new systems purchased from vendors are required to be Y2K compliant. The managers both said that "we are Goldman Sachs, of course we will be finished. We are the premier investment bank in the world." The head commodities honcho estimated that they would have to fix about 50 million lines of code. If this estimate is correct, it doesn't look like the mighty Goldman Sachs is going to finish on time, since even the leading remediator Cap Gemini can fix only about 1 million lines of code per month for each client.

Pretty amazing isn't it - - how on earth could the simply awesome Goldman Sachs let this happen to them? I started to think that perhaps I have missed something, perhaps there are simpler solutions to the problem that I ( and Y2K experts like Yourdon ) have not considered. But one passage in Benjamin Anderson's "Economics and the Public Welfare" ( highly recommended ) cast some light on the situation. Anderson recalls that France would not rearm themselves as Germany was becoming increasingly more belligerent. EVEN AS GERMANY HAD PENETRATED FRENCH SOIL, French bureaucrats would bicker with American armament suppliers over unimportant details. I'm sure the idea of Nazis marching before the Arc de Triomphe in Paris was ludicrous to these French bureaucrats, much as the idea of the greatest investment house on Wall Street being taken down because of a couple of missing zeros seems ludicrous to the bureaucrats at GS. With all of the emphasis these days on improving stock price and "shareholder value", all managers are being paid to look after short- term problems, thus assuring them of higher bonuses. They will probably attempt to retire late this year or early next year before the Y2K fallout begins. So I can now see two causes for the Y2K crisis even in prudent institutions: ( 1 ) procrastination/failure to consider worst case scenerio, and ( 2 ) greed/short- term thinking. Both of these are classic self- fulfilling positive reinforcement cycles, which must eventually explode, as Soros asserts in "The Alchemy of Finance".

Another item of interest: in order to convince us to work for Goldman us recruits had a catered breakfast in the partners' boardroom on the 30th floor at 85 Broad Street. The scenery was quite breathtaking - - the partners could look down upon the Statue of Liberty. The symbolism of this was not lost on me!

- Organ

p.s. I WILL NOT work for Goldman Sachs!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 02:58 - ID#255284)
Marco Polo, no, not the ultimate Macintosh archiving software but a traveller down the
sam ...The silk root

have a look here good history
and here

here's a special one for JTF, & all our other physicist, and "hard" scientists it's quite something



(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:00 - ID#288140)
program trading
Well, then, I have another dumb question for anyone. What is program trading?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:06 - ID#255284)
food for the hungry....
organ: great peak inside GS, thanks. The devil is in the details, and the details of your observations will ECO loudly for years to come. If GS are that confident in their Mort D'argent mantra, no doubt they are playing short. perhaps GS will not see the millenium, in which case, Y2K compliance expenditure would be wasted $$??
now, the important stuff, did you enjoy your dinner?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:07 - ID#335184)
Little Island...,Little Island.
It is a funny thing, the way we bicker amoung ourselves like the siblings that we are & heirs to the mantle of Western ideals & burdens. The predominate American habit of nievete ( Sic ) is both our main extravigant virtue & probably what the rest of the world finds most annoying & baffeling in the American stance in the world. It has been said on this forum, "The only thing the world hates worse than American hedgemony, is the lack of it." This is true. As clumsy as we are, what would the 20th century have been without it ? Alright, it was arguably the most bloody in history, but mostly in the first half when the US was still in it's ascendency & mostly through neglect of it's role & not in the exercise of it.
Does any one think that America ( Its' people, ) has the appetite or desire or has truly exerted itself in empire ( other than in minor early flirtations with imperialism ) , the world stage or the internal affairs of other lands, except in self defense or in the defeat of national socialism or Bolshevism. Well, WW1 comes to mind & the resulting rise of Lenin, Stalin & Hitler, but our Mother made us do it.
Do the Aussies think their arsses would be sovereign today without the US arsenal ??? How about the Mater, ...does anyone have a count on how many times we've retrieved her singed chestnuts ? Just the post/WW2 example of how not to turn toward a fabian society is probably our greatest service to the Mother Country, but is the least likly to ever be acknowledged. Oh well, we're the ungrateful ophesh son who never does anything for her mum. Saving the world from totalitarianism is no small thing , even if it was acomplished with blind dumb luck. Oh well even a blind squirrel, as they say can find a nutt.
And Canada,... OOOH CAN- A- DA, get with the program. We love ya eeh, but you've got to get a life. Why not tell those frogs in Quebec to take a chunnel to franse' & join the North American Estados Unidos or better yet, you should join the South where English virtues are still practiced & appreciated as It rises again !
And Scotland, my Gad what have we t'doo wi yoo ! Proud & beholden to no one, even the bloody Roman Empire had to curtsy to your stubborn will at Hadrians wall ! Or was it built to keep you out of our exclusive "club of Rome" & Greece ? I like to fancy that it is the human spirit of William Wallace that informs & swells in the breast of all people who will not be dominated, who will endure & who will prevail. Thank God for this measure in our character. And I've often thought that we owe our southern fiddles to some poor Pic in the hollars of the Smokey & Blueridge mountains who lost his pipes & tried to duplicate the sound with stings as best he could while he goes about trying to cliam the wilderness for King & country or escape the tax man or both.
At any rate, & at all cost, let us not forget that we are all one big happy family & let us try not to let the necine ( Sic ) stabbing get out of hand.
Hail Britannia, ? Why hell ya, with all it's permutations!


Tar Baby

Breaths there a man with a soul so dead, who never to himself hath said, " This is my own, my native land "...who's heart hath ner within him burned as home his footsteps he hath turned, this jewal, this emerald isle, this..., Yes Virginia, there will always be an England, even if it lives on like the many different feathered birds are to the diosour !
Eat more possum !
Nipps buy AU !

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:11 - ID#215211)
White House intern subpoenaed to testify in Paula Jones civil suit against president
This is the 23 year- old intern who was to be the subject of a Newsweek article this week by Michael Isokoff but the story was spiked at the last minute. Ironically, Isokoff had quit the Washington Post when his story
about Paula Jones was spiked.

Instead, Newsweek ran an "old" story about Kathleen Willey, a part- time White House employee, who testified under oath in a deposition last week that she was kissed and fondled by the president in a room off of the Oval Office. The president later named Willey to the Board of Governors of the USO. This is an infinitesimal story in the Clinton saga but he has denied any and all allegations. Many other women are reportedly testifying under oath on related matters.

Unfortunately for the U.S.A, political turmoil in 1998 could cause major problems; an escalation of the Iraq situation would not be a surprise.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:28 - ID#255284)
URLS gathered from hither & yon..
Program Trading
Trades based on signals from computer programs,
usually entered directly from the trader's computer to
the market's computer system and executed

was from look up glossary may I also suggest:


but, perhaps best of all this search engine:

you'll probably have to remove any spaces.


(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:30 - ID#284255)
I should shut up!!!
George Soros = Big Trader = Another.
Cause he loves manipulating and making money.
Why not?

Does it really matter who ANOTHER is.
More the reality of the 10% of truth behind his words.
Hardly worth being captivated over.
But worth contemplating.

Just like many of the other fine articles and postings I read here.
10% truth and discard the rest.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:34 - ID#162309)
Dinner in NYC
Hey Aurator, you remembered! Yes, dinner was fantastic. My friend and I went to the China Grill on 6th Ave. The total bill came out to $205 - - eclipsing my record spent in a restaurant by more than $100 ( I am still a grad student ) . Unfortunately the recruiter knew that something was up so I didn't get reimbursed for the whole dinner. Still, it was a thrill, especially waking up with the traders on the Street ( my hotel overlooked the NYSE ) .

BTW, I just accepted a position with Bain & Co., a management consulting firm. I will be moving back to my hometown, Toronto, in the fall. I hope that I will still be able to take part once my life becomes a lot more hectic!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:36 - ID#288140)
Thanks for the silk road link. Fascinating. I bookmarked it and will study it again tomorrow when better able. Yes one link. For the second link, I deleted the space after the hyphen and tried one other trick with out success. Thanks again. Salud!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:38 - ID#302251)
MA MA MIA..........WHO NEEDS WW3 ???

This is the first time that we see any real activity in Sydney.
Do you think that they are trying to scare the bulls ???
Since Sydney is a very thin market,
any old lady selling her jewelry could drop Sydney down.

OR, could it be that OLDMAN is using his connections in Sydney,
to push Gold to 250,
just to get ZIVA aggravated ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:47 - ID#255284)
Perorate or die

sharefin, actually I have another picked a muslim, This is after all, better than Twin Peaks, and more revealing than Silvania Waters. He left us just before Ramadan, joined us on the last evening, perhaps the breaking of the fast of Ramadan? and with tea, not steinies. I have him for a muslim, probably gold trader in Bahrain, Kuwait?..I am too crass of course. With Colin Seymour's beautifully correct Seven Pillars of Wisdom Lawrencian image of a camel whose head is in a tent. Frankly, all I could see was a Camel's raisin.

but, those jaffas I rolled down the aisle. ( Trans. note. - ringside seat at "another's little drama" on w/end- old kiwi tradition roll the jaffas - round orange candy- coated chocolate balls down the wooden cinema floor in the dramatic bits makes a hell of a noise and stops things getting to serious ) he didn't pick up. Those Qs like who are you and, existentially, mate, why the f*ck bother?

see what got a alien believer nutter about sharefin, just watch out you don't get abducted.

do you know, that using some stats from these alienlunies, 3 million americans have been abducted. gold in them thar alien's bloodstream, I've heard.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:48 - ID#288140)
Thanks for the search engines. I bookmarked 'em all. Like hitting paydirt. Thanks!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 03:58 - ID#335184)
SHAREFIN< THANKS for the historical chart on Platinum since 77
Looks like the EKG on one of Dr. Jack's sendoffs !
What happened, the fall of SU ?
Do you think Platinum blond is better than goldy locks ?

Over & out !


(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:01 - ID#28585)
@sharefin....Soros spelled backwards = Soros...Very Profound.
Sharefin, Soros is also a homonym for sorrows. Soros brought sorrows to Thailand which ultimately brought sorrows to Asia which ultimately brought sorrows to Latin America which will ultimately bring sorrows to ??????

What does it all mean?

Tuesday...another shoe drops...and another delicious day for gold.

Very Truly,

Farfel ( The Unpronounceable )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:01 - ID#153102)
I personally wish the blessings of liberty and peace on all people everywhere. But, I'm a son's son of a liberty boy. No "Your Honor's" or "By Your Leave, MiLord" for me, thanks.
I think this century shows one country can't do for another what the people in it must do for themselves.
And I think you're understating the amount of imperial commercial exploitation committed overseas by the greenback federal government by way of its creations, the corporations.
And did we go over there because mater made us or to get J.P. Morgan's chips out of the fire ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:07 - ID#302251)
Aurator.......3:47.....: YOU ARE RIGHT
Most Americans now beleive that the Government is lieing about UFOs.

They are wrong !!!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The government knows nothing.
Only a small group in the military
who are hiding behind 'Grey Budget'
which is hidden behind 'Black budget'.....know.
They are the only group who has contact with Aliens.

This military group will never talk to politicians,
as they have no respect to them.
President Nixson was an exception,
he was shown the bodies of few Aliens.


(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:12 - ID#288140)
Y'know I hear on the radio, "... when program trading kicked in..." I had visions of thousands of robot computers making trades for "big boys" instantly, automatically, while they were out, perhaps at lunch.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:14 - ID#255284)
bum steer
Organ I wish my undergraduate days were closer than they are. I remember, after one dinner in Sydney ( That's the Australian one Ted, me old china ) on an expense account seeing the bill for the Lobster I ordered. For the rest of the trip, I was converting everything to Lobster currency. It was a good preparatory exercise for thinking in OzGold. ( But then again an maths teacher got us counting in base 8 at 10 yrs old - We didn't know it was supposed to be hard ) A word to the wise, if I might presume. you will never regret never padding an expense account.

One day perhaps, I'll have a charcoal steak in NY, hmmmmmmm

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:25 - ID#335184)
Mozel / Britannia
My only point is that the nut doesn't fall very far from the tree !
J.P.MORGAN, interlocking financial interests, what's the difference ? Wasn't he the American agent of the Rothschild ?
No doubt your point of US $ Imperialism cannot be easily dismissed, but did not US $ impearialism rise in a vacum ? No doubt the real damage was done when the Federal Reserve was formed & we ipso facto domestically removed ourselves from the AU standard & when Nixon closed the AU window.
This is no apology for the IMF / World Bank Etc. the best intentions of smarmy ( sic ) bastards usually do go astray !


(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:26 - ID#255284)
play it again......
ask DA, or search back for some of his and other's postings. There are some very sophisticated traders who kindly donate their input to this site. In fact that often happens. A trade will be triggered by some mathematical formula that have shown in the past to be ( perhaps ) statistically more likely to produce a movement, in say the share, upwards. The digial equivalent of a little red light beeps and then our noble trader may or may not follow what the programme says. But of course, some traders say that if they allow a human input into the cold mathematical formulae ( you'll here the word algorithm, though the word is often used incorrectly ) it will ruin the pure logic of the formula/algorithm.

I variously wax and wane on the efficacy of these. I certainly have no expertise, and I do believe that some formulae get it right more often than others, at least for a while. Sometimes the traders here get it right, and the more honest ones will also tell you when they get it wrong. There is something about the conceit of trying to predict the future that is the undoing of most prognosticators. It sure is good show though. In the end, it is one man and the market.

The market roars, one man can listen.

A GoldTrader
(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:26 - ID#21455)
Are any of you making a living trading in Gold. Hi I am A GoldTrader. I have studied with Jim Sibbett, George Lane, Walter Bressert, and Wells Wilder. Stanley Kroll lead me to the teachings real or imagined of Jesse Livermore "There is only side to the market; and it is not the bull side or the bear side, but the right side."

When you see my post's you'll have some idea of my background. Aloha..

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:34 - ID#255284)
Haere mai, Haere mai,Haere mai.
A Gold Trader Welcome. Personally I am not a trader, many others here are, they'll be along shortly, once they drag their sorry arxes out of bed. Always like to hear another perspective. Jesse Livermore's words, real and imagined are always welcome to discuss strategies. Do i hear a hula in your aloha?

It is my time to count sheep, good night

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:35 - ID#432148)
Aurator - Your 04:26
Well said my friend. In the end we are all in this game by ourselves when decision time arrives. It is getting the emotions ( greed and fear ) out of the way and using just logic, if that is possible. I guess it isn't. That is where one has to try and use past experience. And even then there are those damn loses from time to time, just not too many times we hope. I always said, I'll settle for 60% :- )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 04:38 - ID#288140)
Good night.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 05:11 - ID#185448)
good morning all. there was a lot of talking bout gold over the weekend, at least over here in Soundofmusicland. Will try to post it a little later, much work in the office. Try to get a coffee ( black gold ) to support blood pressure.

Good nite sam, aurator

(Mon Jan 19 1998 05:24 - ID#302251)
Good morning Fred, the Americans did not wake up yet.
For those of you who are looooooong on Gold,
this is an indispensable website.
Daily GOLD traders, dont bother to go there.

Salisbury Turnpike
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
914- 876- 6700
Fax 914- 758- 5252

Trend Analysis
Trend Management
Trend Forecasting
Strategic Planning

World Leader in Trend Forecasting

(Mon Jan 19 1998 05:39 - ID#288295)

Some of us are up!

Carpe argentum.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 05:47 - ID#302251)
"There's no better trend forecaster then Gerald Celente.
The man knows what he's talking about."
- Bob Berkowitz, CNBC

"A network of 25 experts whose range of specialities
would rival many university faculties."
- The Economist

"Mr. Celente is a very intelligent guy... we're able
to learn about trends from an authority."
- 48 Hours, CBS News

"Those who take their predictions seriously
might consider The Trends Research Institute."
- The Wall Street Journal

"The Standard and Poor's of Popular Culture."
- The Los Angeles Times

"Congratulations on your record for accuracy."
- Seattle Post Intelligencer

"Gerald Celente is the best trends forecaster in the business."
- Psychology Today

"Gerald Celente will show you how to be able
to predict the direction that we are going."
- Anthony Robbins, Author
Robbins Research International

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:02 - ID#302251)
I know noting about GOLD
What does it mean carp argentum

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:08 - ID#302251)
I was just told it's an Argentinian Carp,
I heard they are very tasty.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:26 - ID#266105)
@they don't make meds like they used to
Nurse, she's chewed through the restraints again.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:30 - ID#30116)
Just another three day weekend...
With the U.S. markets closed, what happens? Gold takes a hit, again....

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:35 - ID#266105)
Say Panda, just catching up on a stack of WSJ's. They're making
quite a mess out of cleaning up the mess.
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:35 - ID#431203)
T Robbins & genius insight on the monoply of timing truth...
any web- sites/ urls...?:: )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:36 - ID#185448)
Morning, Ziva
Im afraid, but I dont think that argentinian carps are traded similar to pork bellies as a commodity. As all carps I know, they can taste like mud if not prepared properly.
IMHO, "carpe argentum" is rather a citation in Latin, and means somewhat like "grab the silver" in the sense of "use it for your advantage". This citation is know originally as "carpe diem" which means "use the day" ( - today ) and it derieves from medieval times of plague in a sense somewhat like "live hard - die young". "Carpe diem" and "memento mori" ( i.e. remember your mortality ) characterize an important period of medieval literature. ( As far as I remember they used to write lots of cooking books about plagued south american fish- dishes ) !

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:40 - ID#347447)
Gastronomical Investor
SAM, ORIS: re Vodka, or, for that matter Gin. Yes indeed, Cheap doesn't mean bad. I always preferred the cheap stuff for the bite. In my Manhattan daze, once had lunch with the ex president of a humongous North American distiller who ordered the cheapest Gin in the house for his Martini. My "And why, pray tell, does a liquor industry goliath such as you..?" was met with "The 'good stuff' is just too smooth...I like it dry and with a bite..." As my wife says when she takes an occasional sip of some cheap Vodka I've brought home "It tastes like alcohol." Yesss. Dry.
ORGAN: What are you doing eating Chinese food on 6th Avenue? $205 indeed. Next time go down to Chinatown.
AURATOR: You WILL have your charcoal steak in New York. In my backyard. With cheap Vodka Martinis.
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:41 - ID#431203)
T. Jefferson's ghost, echoing
If a nation
allows its bank
to control its money
first by inflation
then by deflation...

One day, their children
will wake up
homeless on the continent their fathers conquered
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:42 - ID#431203)
Abe Lincoln
You can not rise up
the wager earner
By tearing down the wage payer

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:42 - ID#30116)
2BR02B? - - Of one thing I'm sure, this morning, the traffic shall be 'lighter than usual'. After all, it's another one of them gubament holidays. The light traffic serves to remind me to whom my taxes are being paid...

As for Asia, whither gold???? These three day weekends are developing a curious pattern...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:44 - ID#431203)
Reginal McKenna, leading 19th century English Banker
Give me control of a nation's money

And I care not, who makes the laws

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:45 - ID#347447)
Brother can you spare a diem?
FRED, ZIVA: As in "Quit Carping and get a life!"?
(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:49 - ID#431203)
we've met the enemy
and he is us

the conscious of the body- politic is reflected, and revealed, in it's "leaders"

and so the blind continue to lead the blind
in to the ditch

(Mon Jan 19 1998 06:53 - ID#266105)
There it all is and there we all are, like, New Age at
the EPA.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:09 - ID#289357)

Sorry - after posting, found that our weather forecasters had ( once again ) missed their predictions and had to deal with an overnite snowfall getting to work ( a major problem in the southern US, where it rarely snows and drivers don't know how to handle it ) .

Hopefully, these forecasters are the same ones predicting the impending collapse of silver and gold.

A very long time since my high school Latin days, but ( roughly translated )

Carpe argentum = Sieze ( the ) silver, I believe.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:20 - ID#185448)
Carpe diem - carpet day - was a public holiday in ole Rome, celebrated whith a big rambazamba in Circus Maximus every of January to remember the victory against the ugly taste of cheap vodka, gin and similar liquid semi- blinding toxic substances that was spilt over the floor during winter.

BTW: Saw a movie recently starring Steve Martin ( Try to retranslate the Title as "Dad by random" ) , where he played a guy, collecting gold- coins,drinking lots of ( unidentified ) Schnaps while watching them. What a great Hobby for a goldbug!

Tip of the day: Try out greek Ouzo for this purpose - and if you ever have the opportunity: Try the one, exclusively brewed on the island of Chios, where they add Mastix. If you ever do so, youll know what I mean.

Ad Mike Sheller: Enjoy your posts for many months now - you mentioned some times ago Jan 22nd. Still valid?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:32 - ID#426220)

THE END OF THE LINE... for the Silver Lease CON

Ted Butler is the worlds foremost expert in nuances, intricacies and ramifications of GOLD & SILVER LEASES. Many months ago he exposed the Central Banks ill use of Gold Leasing Operations. Now he shares his insightful observations regarding the Silver Loan CON.

And don't be surprised with future tactics intended to derail
what promises to be a very long and sharp price UPWARD spiral for silver.

...there is no way that the vast bulk of silver loaned can ever be returned.

That was then, this is now - the silver lease CON is over! Here's
why: the report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:37 - ID#403195)
Carp? Rete habeo sed piscator non svm!

Ziva, Fred totum dixit!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:49 - ID#289357)
Ted Butler & All - Silver leases - who owned the silver?
Here is Ted Butler's response to my question of Central Bank ownership of the silver which has been leased ( and now has disappeared forever ) :

Re: Silverbaron's question of who owns the silver that was leased out. I guess I was a bit confused with the question because that silver is gone, so nobody owns it. Now think I see the question - did the CB's own it in the first place before they pissed it away on the lease scam? My opinion is yes for two reasons. One, silver, like gold, was accumulated by CB's or their predecessors for hundreds of years, but because silver ceased being an official monetary metal long ago, there was no reason to publish ownership amounts. As you know, the CB's let you know what they want you to know. Even now, very few officially acknowledge gold loan amounts, and it's obvious that is big business. Two, only an institution whose ownership of a valuable commodity was left in the hands of some kid technocrat, who could care less about something he personally didn't own, would be so stupid as to engage in the loan scam. I find it hard to imagine a real owner getting duped by the shear idiocy of metal lending.

A follow- up question: Is this what happened to the 2 billion ounces of silver in the U.S. strategic reserve? If so, is the U. S. government ( read taxpayers ) going to get stiffed for it when the leases cannot be rolled over?
(Mon Jan 19 1998 07:54 - ID#431203)
A. Lincoln
you can not help the wage- earner
by tearing down the wage- payer

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:00 - ID#31868)
How are you folks up in Canada doing that were affected by the storms? Are things getting back to normal or are they still in the process of fixing electric, etc.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:01 - ID#185448)
OK: Back to the agenda:

Austrian Mint reported, they sold more than 1 Mio Ounces of Gold ( Phillies and Bullion ) in 1997, which is 80000 Ounces more than in 1996.

to be continued...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:29 - ID#31868)
For those of you constantly searching the net or for folks looking for info on search engines and such, go to and the lead article should be of interest.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:34 - ID#185448)
From the balance- sheet of Austrias CB ( ) at 31.12.97: They hold approx. 244 tons of gold and have it in their books at 60.000 ATS/kg, which is ca. equivalent USD 140/trOZ.
( In the homepages glossary they mention theyr holdings still as 480 tons!! ) .

Every nation who will be participating the European Currency- Unit is obliged to deliver 20% of the CB- Gold as well as 20% of their Dollar- Reserves to the EWI ( Europisches Whrungsinstitut = European Currency Institute ) which has the function of a kind of pre- CB of the EMU.
A - well reputated - austrian newspaper reported, that Austria will receive back 18 tons of gold from the EWI, as the total amount of CB- gold had decreased in 1997 and thus EWI- holdings exceeded the required 20% .

to be continued...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:40 - ID#432107)
to tolerant 1
I live in Southern Ontario and was unaffected by the past ice storm. In answer to your question, schools and businesses are returning to normal today and within a week they hope to have everyone with hydro again. It makes you realize how dependant we are to our infastructures. The Canadian government no longer has to worry about what to do with their recent defecit surpluss. That should be a relief for them. ha! ha!

Go Gold!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:40 - ID#426220)



The 1929- like crash in Asia is causing misery on a biblical scale, threatening the solvency of banks, stockbrokers, margin calls undermining investors, while the crackpots running the central banks raise taxes and interest rates, wreaking havoc on the middle class and poor.

If all nations printed paper money at different rates, how could there possibly be stability?

Over the millennia, gold has been the traditional receptacle for Mass Fear, along with silver and perhaps platinum. On a "spike" there is no telling how high gold might go when so many try to buy at the same time, like a herd of elephants trying to get through a revolving door at the same time.

To read the report, copy and paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:40 - ID#398105)
It's a funny old world...................

With the on- going creation of Dollars, and the on- going increase in US National Debt, is this a relevant A "NEW" American dollar ???? This paper was written in 1996........"Derivatives can solve ALL the worlds problems........."

The Swiss and the BIS.......
And a 200% to 300% GOLD backed currency.... sounds and is nice.....

It is certainly a "funny" old world....The BIS Committee on Banking Regulations and Supervisory Practices..........
"Its Committee on Banking Regulations and Supervisory Practices ( made up
of central bankers ) recommends Capital Adequacy guidelines for banks-
currently, this critical factor determines the point at which Japanese
banks become insolvent because of their dependence on the valuation of
their stock assets".

Q - does this infer that the BIS can influence wheither or not Japan is "insolvent", considering their current low gold holdings?

Q - If so, does this mean that the BIS ( or associated body ) can influence the "printing" of US dollars, and/or the provision of a "new" US dollar? A Greenspan is a Director of the BIS.

The underlying theme in these discussions is GOLD.

What do you think?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:41 - ID#31868)
Monday January 19, 7:20 am Eastern Time

ADVISORY - U.S. Holiday Market Hours/Closings

NEW YORK, Jan 19 ( Reuters ) - In observance of Martin Luther King Day, the following market schedules are in effect Monday, January 19:




NYMEX energy markets: crude oil, heating oil, RFG, natgas and electricity contracts all closed;

COMEX AND NYMEX metals markets: gold, silver, platinum, palladium, copper all closed;

NYMEX ACCESS electronic trading: ACCESS reopens Monday night at 1900 EST/2400 GMT;


All CSCE markets closed


In Chicago, the Chicago Board of Trade ( CBOT ) , Chicago Mercantile Exchange ( CME ) and Chicago Board Options Exchange ( CBOE ) are closed.

CME Globex electronic trading will halt at 1030 CST/1630 GMT and reopen at 1730 CST/2330 GMT.

The afternoon Project A session will be closed, but the evening pit and overnight Project A sessions will be open.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:42 - ID#341214)
Organ: Goldman Sachs
Organ: It would be wise for everyone here to read and heed your words about Goldman Sachs ( Jan 19 02:55 ) . I have been in the coding trenches for 25+ years as a programmer/analyst and I have personal experiences with other companies that match your own with GS. The fact that this situation is so ludicrous is a big part of the problem. People are just not going to believe it until it starts happening to them personally. I liked your example of the French in WWII. There is another good example. The Japanese were given an ultimatium before the first atomic bomb was dropped. Even with the evidence of the first bomb staring them right in the face and the testimony of eyewitnesses the authorities could not bring themselves to comprehend the awful truth. They would not surrender and this led to dropping the second atomic bomb.

In Y2K we are dealing with a logic bomb. We programmers can see it sitting there ticking down the time day by day. We see businesses and governments at all levels around the world making belated attempts to defuse the thing but they are too little and too late. No bomb of this size has ever been detonated so we can't really tell people the exact effects but we know they will be huge. Most people will be caught unawares. Keep relating your GS experience. If you wake a few people up it will be worth your effort.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:43 - ID#31868)
G Bug
Thanks, I would much rather hear from folks in or near areas affected as I find news coverage lacking.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:46 - ID#398105)
fundaMETAList...........could this be your "logic bomb".....

........ Japan, join us or else ( ie. BUY GOLD OR ELSE ) ??

It is certainly a "funny" old world....The BIS Committee on Banking
Regulations and Supervisory Practices..........
"Its Committee on Banking Regulations and Supervisory Practices ( made
of central bankers ) recommends Capital Adequacy guidelines for banks-
currently, this critical factor determines the point at which Japanese
banks become insolvent because of their dependence on the valuation of
their stock assets".

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:56 - ID#254269)
Korean Gold hoards;
from Sydney Morning Herald 1/20/98.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 08:58 - ID#347457)
@Fred on Ouzo and Greece
Fred, you brought back some old memories. Twenty years ago, I've spent 12 months in Greece refining my taste for Ouzo. Sweet laziness, not having much to do but drinking Ouzo and thinking about life.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:05 - ID#254269)
No Kitco junkies here.

Ted; I am living proof that you can get through the day without Kitco. I have not been in the office since 12 noon CST on Saturday. ( Does it count against me if I say that I was here at 4 a.m. this morning trying to
catch up on 36 hours of posts ? )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:07 - ID#398105)

An old guy's sitting on a bus when a punk rocker gets on. The punk
rocker's hair is red, green, yellow, orange...he's got feather earrings,
and he sees the guy staring at him.

He says, "What's the matter, old man? Didn't you ever do anything wild?"
The old guy says, "Yeah. One time I fu...d a parrot. I thought maybe you
were my kid!"

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:21 - ID#280245)
A. Goose--Congrats! You win first mention!

You may have missed this; sporting spirit compels me to bring it to your attention. ( :- ) )

FT , Friday Jan 16, 1998
Jonathan Ford in London


An emerging market hedge fund managed by ING, the Dutch bank, lost almost two thirds of its nets assets in the final quarter of last year.

Unnerved investors withdrew around $100m from the US- based Javelin fund after it was hit heavily by falls in the emerging markets at the end of October.

...Before October Javelin was regarded as one of the best performing emerging market hedge funds, with average returns of 32.6 per cent since inception two years ago.

...Javelin wrote to investors saying it had reduced, but not liquidated long positions in Latin America and Russia. We continue to believe the fundamental backdrop that has supported our investment thesis remains intact, wrote Scott Gordon, Javelins manager.

Analysts said this appeared to contradict statements ING had made to investors- - in literature which accompanied the funds prospectus - - that all core positions in its portfolio would be liquidated or immediately hedged if the fund lost more than 10 percent of its value. In October, Javelins net assets fell by 24.7 per cent.

However, because such statements were contained in supplementary documents sent to investors rather than in the offering prospectus, they were not technically binding on the managers. ING refused to comment..

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:22 - ID#341214)
Haggis: Logic Bomb
Haggis: I'm sorry but I don't think I understand your point. I understand the basic function of the BIS and the fact that if Japan's stock market value drops below a certain point their banks have negative net worth but I don't understand who is saying BUY GOLD to Japan. Not the US, I'm sure, so you must mean the BIS.

At any rate, I don't consider myself qualified to comment on that subject. I do feel that the effects of the software logic bomb will boost golds price in the coming years due to a negative influence on stocks along with the fear factor. The negative influence on stocks will come from the incredible costs of Y2K remediation and businesses going under because they can not shoulder the Y2K costs. The fear factor which has not been present in the pricing of gold lately, to say the least, will return in the near future ( between now and 2000 ) possibly due to Y2K itself.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:23 - ID#93232)
Ouzo by Metaxa, Piraeus, Greece...Studiopolous here at your service. Miro, I will never trust your writings from this day forward...the drug you speak of is much worse than lsd and the disclosure by you explains many things. I too can not be trusted because of this evil spirit.

Speaking of carp, does anyone have a good recipe for this delicacy? I have one my mother gave me...if you need it. Studiopolous.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:24 - ID#162148)
Holiday In
goldfevr: It is incredible that someone would post quotes from a slave- owner ( T. Jefferson ) and a virulent white supremecist ( A. Lincoln ) on this Holy day when we are celebrating the life and times of the ONLY American worthy of a Holy Day, the great Rodney King.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:46 - ID#320441)
my sentiments exactly
fundaMETAList's point is my position as well, that as the global economy is traumatized by Y2K- related issues, there will be an erosion of confidence in the "digital wealth" that constitutes 98% of the world's so- called abundance, and a longing for more tangible stores of value. If this happens, as has oft been noted in this forum, there is hardly a limit on how high gold could go.

If not, the wonderful malleable rust- free treasure of the ages could continue to gravitate toward its worth as an industrial commodity.

Point to ponder: If only the Bre- X gold had really been there, then maybe Indonesia could have stayed out of trouble, and the Asian crisis would have been averted.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 09:55 - ID#284255)
Gold below $280?

I am curious as to your logic on gold down to approx $250.

Does this respond to another leg up on the Dow.
I am only thinking this, as they mirror each other so well.

For the chart buffs:
Lease/Forward Rates % for silver/gold.
Graphed from Kitco's data with some smoothing.
I have yet to correlate over physical prices.
Strong oscillations within the silver charts.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:00 - ID#341214)
All: Business Week: Will Your Bank Live to See the Millennium?
All: Here is an article in Business Week that mentions some of the Y2K
points I've been making. Be sure to read Gary North's lead- in comments regarding big banks. Banks are obviously one of the most important Y2K subjects but only one of many.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:02 - ID#341214)
Sorry, forgot the URL.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:04 - ID#318321)
Interesting seeing Dines Friday night. He says that a bailout of SEA will not help. Like pouring money down a deep hole. Another interesting thing he said was that the money supply was showing 20% growth, yet he predicted asset devaluation. I wish he would of explained that more. Maybe some Kitcoites have some insight into his thinking? Also got this in the mail.

by Eric Margolis
January 16, 1998

NEW YORK - As Asia's financial storm continues to rage,
Congressional conservatives and liberals have joined to
oppose any more aid to Far Eastern nations. Why, they ask,
should US taxpayers' money be used to bail out Asians and
make good their financial excesses?

Billions in aid, say critics, will only reward reckless
Asian investors, and encourage more dangerous speculation in
the future. Let Asian businessmen and financial
institutions pay the price of their follies and clean up the
mess they created through cronyism, fraudulent accounting,
kickbacks, and rotten business practices. Allow the free
market mechanism to discipline Asians and restore their
battered economies to health.

What's more, the US- orchestrated IMF bailout of South Korea,
Thailand and Indonesia, is being done without the approval
of Congress. The White House is using the obscure Exchange
Stabilization Fund, which enables the executive branch to
give emergency financial aid to foreign governments, without
seeking Congressional assent. This loophole may contravene
the Constitution, which gives Congress control of the
federal purse.

Liberals in Congress complain about US aid being given to
authoritarian Indonesia. They claim the international
bail- out will punish workers, while making whole the Asian
financial institutions and politicians who created the
gigantic mess.

Both groups of critics are right - to a point. But the
Clinton Administration, led by Treasury Secretary Robert
Rubin, correctly decided America's national security is
gravely jeopardized by Asia's monetary crisis and must take

A total collapse of Indonesia, Thailand and South Korea, who
owe billions to Japanese banks, could bring down Japan's
financial system, the world's second largest. Ongoing
convulsions in world stock markets give a preview of what a
full- blown crisis would look like. A major international
financial meltdown could devastate the US economy and
produce dangerous political instability in Asia, Russia,
Eastern Europe and Latin America.

The same Conservatives who oppose the rescue package keep
calling for US military forces to protect America's "vital
interests" around the world. Washington spends US $50
billion annually on military forces policing the Mideast,
and a similar amount in the Pacific and North Asia.

Many liberals and conservatives ardently backed war with
Iraq, which cost $100 billion, to prevent a five cent a
gallon increase in the price of gasoline. Surely the threat
of an international financial panic is a greater danger to
the republic than events in the Mideast, which is no longer
even America's principal supplier of oil.

Right now, the biggest threat to American security is not
Saddam Hussein, Libya, Sudan or assorted terrorist groups.
It's the spectre of a financial panic duplicating the 1930's
worldwide Depression which, let's recall, led directly to
Hitler and World War II. The newly interwoven global
economy is producing dangers and complexities previously
unimagined, and is still only poorly understood, even by

Fighting wars for cheap oil violates free market economics.
So was helping rebuild demolished Germany and Japan after
World War II. But the Marshall Plan restored Europe to
health, blocked Soviet expansion, and created a half century
of unprecedented prosperity.

The same conservative and liberal critics who oppose
emergency aid to South Korea, Thailand and Indonesia - call
it the Rubin Plan - regularly vote $3- 5 billion in annual
aid to Israel, which has received over $85 billion from
American taxpayers since 1948. Why is highly strategic
South Korea, where 37,000 American troops are based, any
less vital than Israel to US interests?

Giving loans to profligate Asians is deeply distasteful. It
certainly offends my fierce free market beliefs. The IMF's
draconian "rescue" packages have often backfired. Still,
it's the best vehicle available.

We're facing an unprecedentedly dangerous situation, what
French call "force majeure". Financial and political
realpolitik must take precedence over economic ideology.
Without the US- mounted rescue, there may be few markets left
in Asia, free or otherwise.

Copyright: E. Margolis, January 1998

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To receive Foreign Correspondent via email send a note
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in the body:
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For Syndication Information please contact:
FAX: ( 416 ) 960- 4803
Eric Margolis
c/o Editorial Department
The Toronto Sun
333 King St. East
Toronto Ontario Canada
M5A 3X5

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:04 - ID#427357)
Angell and his not so angelic-logic


Testament to my astonishment is Wayne Angells braying about the Gold Industry... of which he knows ZILCH. It is my very considered opinion his logic is tainted with the self- interest of a Wall Street Economist, defending his future - which is now in considerable jeopardy. NONETHELESS, lets use his faulty reasoning and apply it to his own industry.

Here is another line in the sand labeled "$280": According to Wayne Angell, Chief Economist at Bear Stearns [WSJ, Dec. 6 1996], new gold leaching technology allows gold to be produced for
between $225 and $280 per ounce - so profitability is likely for most of these producers if the gold price is above $280. Therefore, concludes our so- called economist, gold should not be valued higher.

Well, Mr. Angell, lets apply the same logic to the stock brokerage business. As one of the leading brokerage houses in the Street, Bear Stearns is probably charging the going sales commission rate as others its ilk of about $120 per trade on the average! Now lets compare this outrageous sales commission to what some of the economical discount brokerage houses are charging for similar trades. One will discover there are a slew of brokerage firms with stock sales commissions between $9.99 to $19.99 per similar trade. Now Mr. Angell if they can do business PROFITABLY at that sales commission level, how on earth can Bear Stearns et al justify gouging John Q. Public the exorbitant price of $120???!!! Unless, of course, it is to finance the Wall Street Limos, sumptuous yearend bonuses, and extravagant lifestyles of elite Wall Streeters!

Mr. Angell, as an economist, how can you justify a $120 stock sales commission, when more efficient brokerage houses only charge $9.99 per trade? Perhaps, you apply distinct and more convenient logic to evaluate the Gold Industry than you employ in determining the sales commission level in your own industry?

Mr. Angell, may I respectfully suggest you employ your very considerable knowledge and experience to the YOUR OWN AREA OF EXPERTISE, i.e. the stock brokerage business. BTW, we ALL would be very interested to know how, and per what criteria, you justify charging $120 vis- - vis $9.99. There is obviously considerable FAT there. And Mr. Angell, spare us the decrepit clich of full- service nonsense. Nearly ALL stocks today may be researched TOTALLY FREE VIA THE INTERNET.

Under current highly competitive conditions, full- service today by the Wall Street establishment is tantamount to full- shaft!

Mr. Angells credibility would be considerably enhanced if he would be consistent, and apply the SAME ECONOMIC LOGIC to the Gold Industry as he conveniently applies to the Stock Brokerage Industry.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:05 - ID#341214)
Sorry, one more time folks...
Gary North's comments are at:

The link to the main article is also there.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:06 - ID#257136)
Made the statrement re: control of money!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:10 - ID#254269)
@ Haggis. Re two of your posts last night ,

1. Your 23.41 re Netatitis, I loved it and think that I am showing some early signs of this "disease". Please let me how this malady is treated; does it require some form of isolation ?

2. Your 23.00 re Soros, I have read quite a few of the posts on this forum re Soros and his backers ( The Rothchilds ) and I wonder why there
is this constant pre- occupation with the source of his money . Isn't it only
logical that billionaires have billionaires for friends and that they ( billionaires ) have access to major fund managers around the world who
have access to VAST sources of capital. I am obviously not a billionaire,
but have worked on large scale real estate development projects and I know that there are many pension funds around the world ( US, Canada,
UK, Australia, in fact any country ) who are quite "ready, williing and able " to invest in large scale projects. A good sized real estate development these days is $50 million or more and I would guess that a
gold mine of any size would easily be $100 million or more. I just do not quite understand why the pre- occupation with the source of Soros's
funds ? Other comments are welcome and appreciated.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:23 - ID#254269)
More on Fund Managers; Last night, there was a show on PBS in Dallas
called "The Bottom Line" part one of two. It was about how Wall Street
is greatly affecting the Corporate Rationalisations that have been going on in the US. It featured Michael Price ( a New Jersey fund manager )
who took a major stake ( about 6% ) in Chase Bank and effectively
"forced" a merger between Chase and Chemical Bank. Out of this exercise, Price's funds made about $700 million or so. In the same article , it talked about how Price hired Al Dunlap to run Sunbeam Corporation where Price also had major investments. In the Sunbeam
situation, Price made a similar huge amount of money. The article is trying
to show "the connection" between these types of corporate re- organizations and the lowering of salaries and wages in the US.
My point in this post is that there are probably hundreds ( if not thousands )
of fund managers in the US, who have access to HUGE amounts of capital who are always looking for a business opportunity. I am not "taking sides " in this argument but merely pointing out the pros and cons of the situation. Yes, I am truly sorry that hundreds and thousands of people get laid off in these sitiations but "someone" ( The market ) is going to require that these restructurings be undertaken. I am also reminded of the changes that Ross Perot tried to undertake in General Motors where he "ran into a brick wall" and the changes that Calpers has tried
to initiate in many US industrial companies. It would seem to me taht the gold industry is an industry that is ripe for ratiionalisation on a worldwide scale. Comments are appreciated.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:23 - ID#162148)
Leg up/down
sharefin: Historically the final distribution at bull market tops takes place under the umbrella of a strong Dow. IBD called it the "Judas Goat", leading the lambs to slaughter. I expect a rally wherein the Dow will outperform the broad market as the last inventory is off- loaded to the innocent. whether we see new Dow highs or not depends upon how low we go before the final "fool's rally". All IMHO, of course.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:27 - ID#93232)
Mother Studiopolous's " le Carpe' du le Okie" as I recall.....
As most know, times can become very difficult here in Oklahoma. With few resources at hand, no money, chiggers and perpetual bad press, we Okies continue to slowly advance in spite. My mother once prepared this entre' for Mr. Rodney King at our mansion in Murray County. He absolutely loved it, as do I.

le Carpe' du le Okie
as prepared by Chef Mother Studiopolous.

Catch or shoot one five pound carp fish. Scale and gut the slimey beast while drunk on Stag beer. Take chain saw and cut off a piece of wood, preferably oak, approximately 12"x 16.5" from the side of the house. Cut high enough on the side of the house that no varmints can get in...we learned this later. Place carp on wood slab, go inside the house.

Preheat stove to 305 degrees, no warmer. This is critical. Now stick two sticks of margerine inside the dead fish. Cover with sliced onions, cloves of garlic, apricot brandy, Heinz 57 fish sauce, jalapenos, old soy sauce and Grey Poupon. Bake the fish for 14 hours being careful to baste the beast every 7 to 8 minutes. Continue to drink Stag beer.

When the fourteenth hour has passed, take two shots of Old Crow whiskey and turn off the electricity to the house. Now stick cotton balls in your nostrils, and have the kids go outside to the front of the house. Open carefully the door to the stove....Voila!

Gingerly remove the masterpiece from the stove. Bring all loved cats, dogs and goats into the house. Open the kitchen window and throw the damn fish out the window. Now you are ready for a fine Okie Treat. The board should feed 4- 6.

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:37 - ID#24135)
Happy Mozel's brother's day
For mozel

You asked a question

" How do you evaluate the political risk in RSA from day to day ? "

and then you told me what your brother said

" My brother says a lot of SA are leaving just like they left SR now Z. "

Lets cover your brother first - I think he is

wrong - but I dont really care what he thinks and I

dont know why You mention him to me - maybe its

because he is your brother and you love him - I think

that's sweet -

Now to your question - I think that the political

risk for anyone who would ask this kind of question

would be way too much for them to bear.

You see Mozel - you are talking to a man who LEFT

the USA in 1981 for good BECAUSE he assessed the

risk to his personal freedom as too great to have to

put up with. I would never go back there - one of

the reasons being the amazing amount of politically

correct claptrap that is indulged there - one

example being the sacred day that you are presently

celebrating. Dont get me wrong - Im not particularly

racist - just realistic. Blacks are okay - celebrating

"victimhood" isnt. Ive basically enjoyed as much

Steven spielberg as I can stand.

If you mean the coming revolution and bloodbath -

Get a grip man - That stuff you see on TV is to make you

feel better about living in the US - Dorkos have

been forecasting this kind of crap since sharpevile and

before. Blacks are in the minority in the Cape and

very pleasant on balance and provide very cheap labour.

( my live in colored maid costs 100$ a month - my Black

gardener is 40$ a week - yours is probably cheaper but I

just have to live with that ) .

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:37 - ID#254269)
"le Carpe du le Okie"; If you eat the whole board, do you get splinters ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:39 - ID#347457)
STUDIO.R: neither do I trust my writing. That makes at least two of us. :- )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:44 - ID#284255)
The last bull trap to come?
Does this have a relationship with your thoughts of gold going lower?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I, like many, had thought that the Dow had finished its run.
But just of late, have see many indicators pointing to excessive volatity coming.

It's almost like we are going to go into a really crazy euphoric phase.
Either that or fall flat on our face.

Some of the indicators I'm watching are pointing to :
Time being compressed and price expanding.
Makes me think that prices could go absolutely crazy before correcting.
The last final orgasmic thrust of the trend before turning.
Gold down and equities up for the last run?

Here in Oz, I am starting to see this effect where fundamentals are thrown to the wind. So much money in everyone's pockets that they will pay whatever "just to have."

Is this form of irrational investing,
What is currently happening in Asia.
Dippies, dipping before the true bottom is set.
Or have they solved their problems and the bottoms in? NOT.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:49 - ID#254269)
Wall Street Journal articles.

1. Talk of Deflation ( The Outlook, page 1 ) .

2. Shipping Lines feel effects of Asian Woes, Page A2.

3. Pegasus Gold files Chapter 11 ( Page A9 ) .

4. Malaysia Air delays Boeing order ( Page A9.

5. Japen's Efforts to avert collapse boost markets Page A10.

6. Moody's rerates nine European Banks Page A10.

7. Tension grows in Indonesian factory belt Page A11.

8. China to revamp its Central Bank . Page A11.

9. South Korea and banks move closer on debt crisis . Page A11.

10. Hong Kong struggels amid beat of Asian News, Page A11.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:52 - ID#57232)
Gold to $250/oz? Yes, if any future ECU CB has gold (except France and Germany)
sharefin,Oldman,RJ: I have another tidbit from Frank Veneroso's Dec 9 Canarc teleconference that may be relevant to this topic.

According to FV, the main reason for the gold bear is "small" CB selling of gold, with speculators piling in when the trend was obvious. He believes that when the EURO officially goes "on line", individual CB's in the ECU will no longer be able to buy or sell gold without permission. Since Germany and France will wind up controlling the majority of the gold that will "back up" the EURO, there is no reason for the smaller CB's to keep their gold. FV has also said that the mind set of many CB's has been to focus on the last 10- 15 year trend in gold, and not longer term. Hence the gold sales by the Netherlands and Belgium, since gold seems to be of "no investment value". Fortunately the French and the Germans remember hard times when gold was necessary to stabilize their currencies, and are much less likely to join in on the selling spree. Also, longer term, FV claims he can show that gold offers a better return than "real" interest rates on bonds.

This reason why the smaller CB's have been selling gold with such apparent abandon - - pushing gold well below its equilibrium price - - makes alot of sense in this context. Why keep something that you think you don't need anymore, when you can make money "short term" earning interest on paper?

So - - the key question is I see it - - is just how much gold Belgium and the Netherlands still have - - or for that matter any other country that plans to join the ECU during this "first cycle", other than Germany or France? If there is any gold left, it is almost certain that these countries will sell it before the EURO goes on line - - simply because that gold is "no longer" needed, since the German and French holdings will be used to back the EURO.


(Mon Jan 19 1998 10:53 - ID#254269)
WSJ cartoon today.

Guy is sitting in front of his TV, watshing the news. The caption from the
announcer says,
"Saddam Hussein today threatened to have himself cloned if the US doesn't give in to his demands".

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:00 - ID#57232)
Saddam Hussein cloned!
Avalon: I thought he already did it! Ever wonder why he seems to have nine lives?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:00 - ID#162148)
sharefin: Ma and Pa will not pay 25 times earnings for Dow giants that are enjoying low single- digit top line growth if Gold is rocketing skyward.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:03 - ID#162148)
jtf: Gold will bottom when Ma and Pa decide that Dow giants at P/E's approaching 25 were not a good deal. Of course the P/E's will be near 15 by that time.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:07 - ID#249147)
Another rally in stocks? Don't think so.
The key point in stocks is to follow the breadth and the divergence. The NASD has broken down first. The SNP is going sideways. The Dow is making lower highs. Another rally is possible but I doubt if it is a buy - more like a trap if it comes. The most gogo market has been Italy by the way and it is actually down today. If Asia falls tonite, the cold water is on for the US tomorrow.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:11 - ID#280222)
gold stocks
"Buy it when nobody wants it." When the dust settles, I plan to add to our positions in ECO, RYO, and DROOY, hedging with appropriate gold ( physical ) puts. You don't get rich following the crowd.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:15 - ID#403277)
Reply to JVF: I doubt if Holland and Belgium got to their positions as trade and commercial powers by being as naive as you suggest.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:17 - ID#57232)
Trouble in SE Asia
All: Saw an interesting article in morning paper today . Apparently several US companies with international interests are claiming that the SEAsia situation is an "great opportunity", because of the potential low cost manufacturing. Could this lead to a rally in certain international stocks that could benefit from such an approach? - - perhaps. I find it hard to believe that this would be sufficient to buoy the US markets for any length of time.

Perhaps some "bottom fishing" in SE Asia has begun - - I for one would at least wait until China devalues their currency.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:21 - ID#284255)
Massive CB selling?
I am not so sure about these large sales.
I think net sales from banks were around 400 tons.
That is worth approx $4.5 billion.
This figure is absolutely dwarfed by bond releases during the same period.

Also these countries selling to join the EEC.
Seems like the Mid- East, India and Asia would swallow any surplus.
Let alone Japan is it chose to bolster its gold reserves.

Seems to me that this whole gold debacle is more sentiment driven than fundamental.
It's almost like gold's price is being positioned for specific reasons.
Like Grandmasters shuffling their pieces across the board.
And goldbugs are patiently awaiting their next move.

Did you see the Gold/Silver Rates % charts?
Are we soon to see fundamentals overtake sentiment?
As per Ted Butler's comments.

Those solar fluxes should collide with us this coming week.
It will be interesting to see if there are other chaotic occurances during this period.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:25 - ID#153102)
JTF newtron John
JTF The small CB attitude toward gold may not even be euro centered. A visit to the BIS site will reveal this is the "business school" for CB'ers. First you come to their seminar; then they show you what they did for CB X using "modern" portfolio management. Of course, gold looks like a dead weight in the spreadsheet. Apparently, the Canadians, Aussies, and Argentinians have swallowed this hook, line, and sinker. There's no doubt where the impetus for PM loan/leasing came from. Oh, the magic of compound interest. But I believe FV could show gold has a better return. Sort of like BIS is Wall Street in Basle. Figures can lie and bond salesmen always figure.

newtron: your last post. very well spoken.

John: should have mentioned the scuttlebutt was from SA in the immigration law office brother rents out. knew SA is not like the news. PC is worse than ever here as are the other factors you mentioned. sounds loverly on the cape.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:26 - ID#57232)
Belgium and Netherlands
Ryter: I am not suggesting - - that was from Frank Veneroso who has an $8000/year gold newsletter. I do not know if he is correct, but what he says makes sense in a certain perverse way. The general mindset right now is that gold has no long term economic value - - even the Swiss CB directors were considering selling some of their gold reserves. If you were Belgian or Dutch and you were told that you would no longer have control over your gold assets, and France and Germany were taking over the role of assuring the strength of the EURO, you might sell them too!

I agree that a gold bug like you or I would not do such a thing - - but that is a different matter.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:31 - ID#341214)
Dave in CO: TWA 800 Item
Dave in CO: Take a look at this item. Pay special attention to the
very last sentence which I've reproduced below after the link.

Retired Navy Brass Revives Twa Missile Theory
Officers Voice Suspicions Over Fbi's Findings

For its part, the NTSB insisted after the briefing that "We have no
physical evidence that a missile impacted TWA
800, or a fragment of a missile penetrated the aircraft."

Not even counting the fact that the media did not report this news
conference, that last sentence has a loop hole big enough to fly a C5

Think proximity fuse and then go back and read that sentence again.
A proximity fuse does not detonate the warhead upon impact ( "no
physical evidence that a missile IMPACTED TWA 800" ) , it blows up
in the immediate area of the target and creates a shock wave that
destroys the air frame. The warhead and missile would have
disintegrated upon detonation so there would have been nothing left
of it to penetrate the aircraft.

This is a PERFECT example of how our government tells an
incredible lie and the truth at the same time. Do we have any
military ordinance types out there that can back up my comments?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:32 - ID#302251)
We can not kill Saddam Hussain.
We will never kill Saddam,
for the simple reason
that he probably has terrorists with us
with bacteriological weapons.
So let's talk about something we understand something about,
like GOLD.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:35 - ID#284255)
Re the P/E
Seems like the story about which comes first:
The chicken or the egg.

Buy gold cause it's going skyward
And dump the dow cause it's earning's are falling fast.

Dump stocks cause they have already gone down.
And buy gold cause it's safer and going to go up.

Now which one comes first?

ABCD Goldbugs
MNO Goldbugs
OSAR Goldbugs
OSICD Goldbugs

Silly silly bug. Swat, squash.

Volatile times a coming to a screen near you.
It's 3am and goodnight to all.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:36 - ID#57232)
Gold rally after DOW falters
Oldman: Your comment makes alot of sense. It will take months I think for all of those baby boomers ( or Ma and Pa ) to decide that the DOW cannot go up anymore. We may have some sophisticated investors heading for the exits and buying gold and gold stocks, but the real surge will be later. Inflation fears driven by the rapid expansion of the money supply will also take months to build up as well. One other variable in the equation would be a run on the dollar - - but that will wait until the unrest in SE Asia subsides - - right now the US dollar looks like the best place to be for many. But - - when the situation improves in SE Asia, dollars will start returning to the US in a big way.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:39 - ID#302251)
We always knew that TWA- 800 was shot by a missile fact.htm

The FBI forced the NTSB to lie.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 11:53 - ID#57232)
Gold sales alone can't cause Gold bear
sharefin: I think I understand what you are saying - - how could CB sales alone drive the gold market down? This is what FV seems to be saying. Perhaps the idea is - - as you say - - a general sentiment against gold as something to keep because it is hard to make money with it during non- inflationary times. So - - you take the CB sales, the speculators riding on their coattails, the gold loans - - the fact that certain banks such as the Brazilian CB apparently sold or loaned gold for speculative plays of some kind - - the current deflationary times - - and finally the desire to suppress the price of gold to support our paper currencies. I don't know the relative importance of each of these factors, but I think you are right that the underlying force behind all of this is a general mindset that gold is not worth keeping.

Perhaps a better way of looking at this is to think about who will not sell their gold - - such as Germany, France, Japan, etc. I don't think the US will - - as long as AG is Fed Chairman.

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:00 - ID#24135)
this place is so crowded nobody goes here anymore
for Mozel -

You cant beat the Cape. I wish I could get off the

computer and enjoy it. We have a first class

infrastructure, good wine, cheap fruit, booze, etc,

cheap services and help, and excellent weather. Its

like California without LA and at half price.

for Savage - dont follow crowds - I like you attitude -

but with echo bay you may be following the crowd to

the poor house

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:02 - ID#302251)
foundementalist fact.htm

remove the space before 'fact'
it works

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:04 - ID#267276)
If you are interested in royal oak gold, than the good news is that all of its required financing for the Kemess mine in finished. Its a GO. Check RYO.To and look under news. They made the announcement over the weekend.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:09 - ID#358318)
test - please ignore

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:10 - ID#432107)
a few thoughts
Why is the Dow still riding high? Because interest rates are so low that people can find no other investment.

Why are interest rates so low. Because since we had double digit inflation in the 70,s we have appluaded Paul Volker's and now Allen Greenspan's attempts at wrestling the inflation beast to the ground.
The beast has been beaten for sveral years now. We keep kicking him to make sure he's dead. Should he show any glimmer of life the Central Banks fear that Government debts could not survive any kind of resulting increase in interest rates. Our preoccupation with this beast has allowed the Deflation beast to sneak up behind us.

Every good saleman knows that you must create the urgency to buy today. Lowering prices for houses, cars, etc. does not create any kind of urgency to buy today. So to keep the appearance of growth corporate America must lay off some more workers and make the ones that are left work harder for less money. The bottom line looks good and the share holders are happy. This is a dead end street that we are driving down.

Governments the world over require an objective watchdog to keep their currupt spending habbits at bay, middle class workers need a raise and some time off to spend their money and we need a 2- 5 % inflation rate so that our retired loved ones can go back to earning 5- 8% on their savings and not have to inflate the Dow to rediculous hights.

What does this have to do with the price of gold? For now the price of gold is whatever the CB's decide it should be. Let's hope for their sake and ours they decide to take the price a little higher.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:11 - ID#280222)
re your 10:04
Vronsky:..give 'em hell, bro! ( & an e- mail! )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:12 - ID#22956)
John Disney....
I know that you secretly wish to come back to the states for good Hot Dog w/ all the trimmings. And you miss the crowded streets of New York and the Beautiful countryside of your beloved Virginia. C'mon back John......just for a long weekend, you know you want to ;- ) .....uh huh. And you can fly west to meet me so we can 'bag some betties' together on the boardwalk in Santa Monica w/ RJ.....we'll sip good beers and remember the good ole days in the bright, warm southern California sunshine........aaaaaaaahhh...and then you can go back to the realities of your world in RSA.....four days, possibly more if you enjoy yourself...

John, I'll keep a light on for ya' ( smile ) ... enjoy the times


Bugs: copper is a buy, no? Historically speaking from now until Feb....ohmy, and just look at the charts.....I am going in to make it or break your homework.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:12 - ID#238422)
Digdeep, makes no big difference,
but I believe RYO = Royal Oak Mines,
not Royal Oak Gold, which is a different

I know that you know, this correction
is for the other guys.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:18 - ID#267276)
Thanks Oris, your right its Royal Oak Mines.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:19 - ID#238422)
John Disney
John, what's the situation with gun ownership
in RSA? Can you get a handgun of rifle if you
wish, and do you need a special permission
from anybody? Just curious...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:20 - ID#302251)
John Disssssney
did you miss my posts yesterday ?



00:07...this morning

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:20 - ID#238422)
John Disney
John, what's the situation with gun ownership
in RSA? Can you get a handgun or rifle if you
wish, and do you need a special permission
from anybody? Just curious...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:26 - ID#35767)
John Disney
I live in No. Va near Washington. It is a great place to live we have everything to do and the weather is at least somewhat temperate compared to NY and CHI. The people here are very educated which makes for a good mix. The restaurants rival NYC and LA IMHO.

Cape Town would seem dangerpus to me because of all the unrest. Are you not just a little nervous as when Mandela goes?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:27 - ID#153102)
JTF sharefin
JTF The small CB attitude toward gold may not even be euro centered. A visit to the BIS site will reveal this is the "business school" for CB'ers. First you come to their seminar; then they show you what they did for CB X using "modern" portfolio management. Of course, gold looks like a dead weight in the spreadsheet. Apparently, the Canadians, Aussies, and Argentinians have swallowed this hook, line, and sinker. There's no doubt where the impetus for PM loan/leasing came from. Oh, the magic of compound interest. But I believe FV could show gold has a better return. Sort of like BIS is Wall Street in Basle. Figures can lie and bond salesmen always figure.

newtron: your last post. very well spoken.

John: should have mentioned the scuttlebutt was from SA in the immigration law office brother rents out. knew SA is not like the news. PC is worse than ever here as are the other factors you mentioned. sounds loverly on the cape.
Is there a gold is not worth keeping mindset ? Look at the poor S Koreans dumping their gold in return for an IMF loan with interest of 11 - 13% . That rate shifts the rat race into at least third gear. Wonder what portion of the price of a S Korean export to US will be loan and interest payment cost ?

Anybody else noticing they just keep creating banks on top of banks so the left hand is guaranteeing the obligations of the right hand and vice versa ? Quite a juggling act. We are watching the world's greatest confidence men at work. Gold sales by CB's mean one thing: they have lost all fear. Hell, AG even has admirers among the GB while he is presiding over the creation of a central central bank. For a european that would be a central central central bank. Fly me to the moon.

How do wave readers and TA decoders accommodate the fact the numbers are not economic, that is the result of voluntary human action, but the product of policy at the top ? Can you TA central planning ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:28 - ID#341214)
Ziva: Thanks for the link. Hadn't seen that one before.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:30 - ID#302251)
John Disney afraid ?
Are you ROR brave enough to drive right now
20 minutes from your house to the suburbs of Washington ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:41 - ID#45181)
I'm sure we can assume that Disney's report from Mandelaland and ROR's description of Marion Barry's paradise, are equally accurate. Happy Robert E. Lee Day to all!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:43 - ID#347447)
Wayne no Angel for Gold
VRONSKY: In 1989 I made a silver play along with Tony C. ( I wont mention his full name ) who was a brilliant money manager and newsletter writer. He was one of the few TRUE predictors of the '87 crash, with a warning article published in Barron's about 8 MONTHS prior. Tony is a technician, AND a fundamentalist. When we were closely in touch, he went to a gold conference where Wayne Angell, then on the FRB, was giving a talk. Angell made it clear that even then ( 1990 ) the Fed was targeting gold to keep the impression of "inflation" down in the minds of investors. He as much as admitted that the crude oil market was too large to "control" that way, but that the gold market was small enough for success in keeping the gold price down when it suited the Fed. According to Tony, and from the quotes I was provided, Mr Angell appeared to take a great deal of smug satisfaction, and glee, from his power and this strategy, which is, of course, according to early Greenspan, a naked intervention in the "Free Market."This is something you should know about Wayne Angell.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:49 - ID#347447)
Fred @ Vienna
FRED: Yes, the 22nd ( and 23rd ) are still valid as potentially powerful days for the stockmarket. I would have liked to see continued weakness into this week, and would then go with a panic crisis for those two days, but now there is a possibility it could be a potent rally point as well. If put to the wall to make a choice, however, it being an astrological square, the odds would point to a jolt down. If that's the case, it would be interesting to see what the news is around that time. Clinton meets Netanyahu and then Arafat this week, does he not?
Maybe something there, but I'm only an astrologer, not a fortuneteller ( ;- )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:52 - ID#302251)
Mike Sheller
This is the fortuneteller talking:

(Mon Jan 19 1998 12:57 - ID#22956)
Mike 'the man' Sheller
How is Bryant Park nowadays??!? 'Tis good to see a Sheller post from time to time.....uhhuh. wait in the rain


(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:01 - ID#249147)
The 23rd of January

The UK stock market has always fallen on the 23rd. No one seems to know why. A fun fact that I gleaned from TeleText on Sky One.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:05 - ID#35767)
I have lived in LA and Houston and there is no safer place than the business/govt area of DC along with Georgetown. Most of the crime is segregated to neighborhood areas where noone would venture. The govt/commercial area along with Georgetown and Dupont makes DC one of the most attractive and picturesque cities in America.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:05 - ID#333131)
Mike Sheller, Your post about W Angel
Your story tends to confirm what many of us have suspected, but ( I for one ) could hardly believe. Is economics such a dismal science that these people could bring themselves to believe that keeping gold down in dollar price by manipulation will decrease inflation? I suppose dipping the thermometer in cold water before reading it will decrease fever.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:06 - ID#243180)
LaRouche on Soros -?-?-?-?
Anyone know if this is worth reading:

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:11 - ID#243212)
ANOTHER now recognises the 1994923

ANOTHER's post dated Ja. 17/98 at 20:45

I still think that this huge lending practice is the primary reason for the current weakness in the price of gold.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:18 - ID#302251)

I didn't know Soros was involved in so many things.
As no human being can be involved in so many things,
the question is :

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:23 - ID#243180)
What is Money ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:31 - ID#243180)
"The SDR ( Special Drawing Right ) is an artificial "basket" currency used by the IMF ( International Monetary Fund ) for internal accounting purposes ..." - - - why does "The Economist" post it month- by- month as a CPI as it does the Dollar, Sterling, Gold, and Oil index ???


(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:37 - ID#228128)
Carl: Someone, in the fed I believe, came up with a theory that if you lie about the true rate of inflation that you can dampen its effects. The reasoning is that if people believe that there is inflation then they will raise prices and visa versa. All that created money, the true cause of inflation, has to go somewhere, so I suppose it goes towards asset inflation instead of price inflation.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:41 - ID#153102)
G-Bug's dream interest rates
"Why is the Dow still riding high? Because interest rates are so low that
people can find no other investment."

Is there such a thing as investment anymore ? Or isn't it all speculation ?

"Every good saleman knows that you must create the urgency to buy today.
Lowering prices for houses, cars, etc. does not create any kind of
urgency to buy today. ... This is a dead end street that we are driving down."

You cannot ever pay off debt with debt or even pay it down. All you can do with it is roll it over. Restructure. Refinance. Pay Master Card with Visa and vice versa. Central Bank pumps in. Taxes pump out. If people cannot or will not borrow, demand ( hence tax revenues ) goes below the cost of carrying the debt. the armed guards, and the con men. Then you have naked public works spending on the credit of the state. But that's not net gain taxable. War is the true health of the socialist state. Saddam understands the game. He doesn't want peace with anybody. Capitalist banker/accounting concepts will not work when capital is not the unit of account and/or governments interfere with pricing. If the soviets could not central plan their empire, why do you think AG is going to successfully central plan the world. He's already been interfering with PM & stock pricing for a decade already. The final chapter in the story of all socialist regimes is financial crisis and collapse when they hit the granite ceiling or somebody cuts off their credit.

"Governments the world over require an objective watchdog to keep their
currupt spending habits at bay"

Who watches the watcher ?

", middle class workers need a raise and
some time off to spend their money and we need a 2- 5 % inflation rate
so that our retired loved ones can go back to earning 5- 8% on their
savings and not have to inflate the Dow to rediculous hights."

What are your M1 through M8 targets ? Keynes said that not one person in a million would figure out how money supply inflation was theft and was he ever right.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:44 - ID#57232)
Fed suppresses Gold to discourage
Mike Sheller: Your 12:43 says very clearly what several Kitcoites have been saying for months - - myself included - - that the Fed has suppressed the gold market as a means of blocking the gold "flight to safety". What puzzles me is your statement that Wayne Angell smugly said this. Isn't he smart enough to know that one can delay the day of reckoning by suppressing gold on critical days, but that irresistible market forces will eventually take over anyway? Your comment that the gold market was thinner than the oil market, hence more easily controlled is interesting also. One could take this comment one step further, and say that rising oil prices could be countered by selling or loaning gold.

I wonder - - with gold trading at thousands of tons/day at the LBMA, is the gold market really that thin any longer?

I wonder what Wayne Angell says these days, now that he is no longer working for the Fed. If he really thinks suppressing the price of gold is an effective way of fending off inflation, weakness in the markets, or weakness in the dollar - - I wonder if we should even listen to what he says.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:44 - ID#31868)
Keynes grave should be opened and used as a public urinal.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:45 - ID#26669)
Oldman Fools Rally
Long ago I heard that for bursting bubbles the fools rally occurs at 80% of the peak price, or around the $6600 to $6700 range for the Dow.

Happy Lee's B'day! :- )

"Let us cross over the river and rest under shade of the trees"
- T.J.Jackson-

(Mon Jan 19 1998 13:47 - ID#243180)
Click on URL, then icon marked "Concepts in Digital Cash" -- good reading

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:03 - ID#162148)
Our "Nation's "capital
ROR: If Barryville is such a blissful place, why do you live in Virginia? I will never understand why several hundred thousand liberals live in the troglodyte state of Virginia, when they could just move across the river and enjoy the full blessings of the "diversity" they so vehemently push upon the rest of us. Hope you are joining my kinsmen in the Old Dominion today as they honor those two giants of our history, Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:04 - ID#246224)
A quiet day at Kitco ..
and all is right with the world. Well, I think I'll sell all my gold and buy Nikkie 225 index since its going up. I'll sell my silver to buy Korean shares. I will sell my sanity to buy Indonesian real estate. I will sell my life's blood to buy the Thai Baht. I will sell my home to buy US T- Bills on margin. The green pastures await!

( Just kidding of course! )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:06 - ID#432148)
Haggis Your 09:07
Great Joke! For about 40 years I have collected parrot jokes and this one is right up there at the top. ( Have about 200 of them. ) Thanks. You aren't all bad :- ) Why have I collected parrot jokes? For the same reason gold is only about US$287 an ounce :- ) Crazy I guess. See, Bart, I knew this had something to do with gold! ;- ) Actually, I love all you OZ and NZ types. Have had a long admiration for your demeanor under fire. No joke!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:12 - ID#372344)
@ RSA...World ...Violence...Gold.
Many posters have commented on violence around the world etc....
But IMHO the very important point to keep in mind, since this is a Gold
Discussion Forum, is that there is none being mined near Washington
DC , whereas the same same can not be said around Joburg where there
is plenty of Gold being mined, and further Blacks form something like
22% of the population in the US, compared to RSA where they form
a large majority with 75% . I realize that someone from the 5th Dimension
is going to get upset, but those are the facts, and sorry to have to awaken same.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:13 - ID#432148)
You are a man after my ole heart. I wish you lived where I could meet you. But, would you post your e- mail and I will appreciate that. Mine is Best! INGOTWETRUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:15 - ID#333131)
Go long sanity and short the IMF

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:17 - ID#432148)
You posted Blacks are 22% of US population. I know you must know this is incorrect. So How about maybe 11- 12% ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:23 - ID#432107)
to mozel
thanks for adding to my text. You are right to say that all investments now are speculation. Even T- Bills. That is why I am focused on paying off all my debts and investing in gold with my savings. I hope to safely ride out these next few years and have the equity I need to buy low priced stocks and real estate that I think will be available in three years time.

Investing in my fear isn't something I am fond of. I would prefer to build my fortunes in a normal environment. I hope that my worst fears aren't relized. If they aren,t then being debt free at that time won't hurt me either.

My Gold mining investments have weathered a rough road in the last few months but I hang in there thinking of them as my future insurance policy.

Better days ahead for all of us.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:24 - ID#257148)
cum grano salis


Cave Carpem. You have just invited oor haggman to relate Monty Pythons' Parrot Sketch. For it is written, "Wherever two or three Python fans are gathered together, they will utter the Parrot Sketch...."

I have always been fascinated by your civil war. The battles preceding the war and following that war are as interesting as the battles of the war itself. The battle over the Unification of the Americas is ongoing.


Me neither. Agree, Fred was very good indeed! looking forward to hearing more waltzing from Vienna.

Here is a fun URL just for you and Fred ( it doesnt work @ kitco - I tried already ) you might need to remove the extra spaces..
Pig Latin Converter

Mike Gastronomer Sheller
A New York steak, cooked in New York, by a New Yorker? Thatd be ANOTHER dream come true. Kinda like a lonesome aurator blowin is armonica, astride is oss on the Chisholm trail. Cheap vodka martinis, on the trail too? Thanks.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:28 - ID#372344)
@ Goldbug23
I knew if I said 12% Blacks in the US, you know who would then
question that figure and would insist on counting 1/2 part Black.
1/4 part Black, 1/8 part Black I just included anyone with any trace of Blackness in them.

BTW CNN just reported that several young Black children were shot while in a parade marking M.L King Day in Batton Rouge Lou.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:36 - ID#243210)
Echo Bay
Somebody knows why Echo Bay Mines is so weak today?
More than 20% ( 21.42% exactly here in Paris ) DOWN ?

Why ? Bankruptcy ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:38 - ID#153102)
SDR is a hoot
". Every five years the IMF determines which five currencies will enter
the basket, and which weight will be applied to each currency. The
exchange rates used by the IMF to calculate the official SDR are the
noon rates in the London foreign exchange market. When the London market
is closed, noon rates in the New York market are used, and Frankfurt
fixing rates are employed when the New York market is also closed."

Conclusion: Every five years the IMF gets to re- invent its "capital"
Every day at noon the CB's get to fix their books. If trading is stopped , they just get to put the fix in without trading. Fix is the operative word here. What a con. And people pay tuition to learn this stuff, too. It's a growth industry. Change the rules and sell another BIS seminar.

I'll tell you how bad it is. Banks that are members of the federal reserve system carry SDR's on their books at full value. Got a bank in trouble. Give it a handlful of SDR's.

How bad could it really be ? I know somebody who tried to get back the original of the security interest document when he paid off a loan on equipment. Bank didn't want to give it up. Wanted him to take the copy with cancelled or discharged on it. Turns out if the bank doesn't have to get the original back from the federal reserve, it can loan on it over and over on it. The part about the original is a little known legal point from the Uniform Commercial Code. Since you cannot pay debt with greenbacks, but only discharge it, legally, the interesting point was that if the last guy defaulted and they came looking for the security, they could take it from the first guy. Greenback legalities.

If economist didn't print the SDR "value", it couldn't be named the economist. Keeping up the con is a full time job for a lot of people.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:41 - ID#238295)
Joberg gold index down about 2.7% .

Wayne Angell has always been an anti gold fanatic.He gets nervous whenever any but the most efficient gold producers can earn a decent profit. Make no mistake, many on Wall Street feel as he does.

With gold temporarily reduced to the status of a commodity, upside potential this year probably is not much above $350. And that will require considerable weakness in the dollar and the bond market as well as reduced CB selling and lending. $350 gold implies a drop in the dollar index below 95 and bond yields back in the 6.5% area. I think we will see this during 1998 as reflationary policies gather momentum, but not until the second half.

Gold will not move above $400 unless and until one of two scenarios develops.

1 ) Global confidence in the dollar's role as a reserve currency collapses and the dollar index plunges below 90.

2 ) An international monetary reform occurs which increases gold's role substantially.

But with gold stocks being given away, a move to $350 will generate handsome profits on gold equities and mutual funds. FSAGX probable would go up 60% or more if bullion got to $350.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:41 - ID#227290)
John Disney 's day in court
John Disney! You have made PROFESSIONS the preacher can not allow to go unchallenged. Now I must CATECHIZE you.

On the one hand you describe SA as a paradise ( California without LA ) , and on the other, you intimate that it's so bad that anyone who would even ask about the political risk there is facing a situation where the political risk is too great for them. Are you being "A DOUBLE- MINDED MAN" or can you square those two seemingly divergent perspectives coming from the same mouth?

Also, I see you left the USA for ideological reasons in 1981. What personal freedom did you see as threatened in America that was available to you in greater measure in SA?

You wrote about "the amazing amount of politically correct claptrap that is indulged there ( America ) , one example being the sacred day that you are presently celebrating. Don't get me wrong, Im not particularly racist, just realistic. Blacks are okay, celebrating "victimhood" isn't."

Whatever "politically correct claptrap" we have in America, is either also in SA or definitely on the way. The mining companies are being forced to put blacks on the board even though they have no mining experience. The mining companies must also give them stock and options, etc. etc. Whites are being systematically eliminated from civil service jobs in many areas of the country. Affirmative action in the courts, the job market, and other areas of life are a growing reality. ( Crime is being committed in epidemic proportions in parts of the country and the revolutionary government cannot make good on the promises to its constituents. ) And the ONLY reason that you can say it's not as bad there as here with any modicum of truth whatsoever, is that the takeover and revolution in SA is only four years old, while here it is 34 years old. Give SA 30 years, and you won't even recognize it.

At first blush, you sound like a man living in denial of a society collapsing around him. But I want to hear your response before FINAL JUDGEMENT is rendered.

The Preacher

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:44 - ID#288260)
Anybody hear Art Bell last night
Overnight about 11 pm Pacific.. Gerald Celente's, Trends

Research Institute was on. Projections of the future.

Said a lot of positive things about gold. Said CB's have

to keep gold down or there will be a run from paper ( bad

for banks ) to gold. Seems to me I've heard that around

here. Says it's just a matter of time. ( boy am I tired of

waiting at this station ) Said this year will be horrible

for the markets, Asia the main problem. But new ways to

electricly power things cheaply are coming on line.

Cold Fusion and something called the Patterson battery.

Gold may not have to attach to oil we may not need oil!

At least the message is getting out there even though

it is in the wee hours. At least it seems to have aired

twice last week.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 14:47 - ID#197289)

Since things are so quiet on Kitco today I would like to take this opportunity to thank the person who said this ( or close ) on Kitco several months back. "5 bucks for silver - you can't even buy a G__ D___ hamburger for 5 bucks!". That nutshelled the POS for me.

Thanks to the guy who worked for the commodity exchange and stated the commercials were always right and the speculator always wrong judging from his fifteen years on experience. As the commercials are now long gold and short silver the next few months should be most interesting.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:15 - ID#93232)
@T#1..No beef jerky for Camdessus...
I know there are no other cattlemen on Kitco, but today my dear friend Paul of the smartest guys I've ever known...including Another...will probably be on the Ophrah show. Paul sued the bitch for badmouthing beef...all on his own. Now every Harry, Dick and Pedro in the cattle biz has jumped on his bandwagon.
Paul Engler is a great American with a heart of gold. I have always admired him greatly. He might not do the talkin' but he will have done the thinkin'. Clark Willingham, atty, will probably talk but his claim to fame is he married H.C. Hitch's daughter and that's all he had to do to make his life. The recently passed, H.C."Ladd" Hitch was known as the Godfather of the Panhandle. I never could get along with him. The Hitch's own 300,000 head of cattle and 150,000 acres of land...and God only knows how many gas wells.

We ought to sue the bastards that badmouth gold...if they would ever crawl out from under the rocks. I'd like to get Haggis's hands on them by God!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:25 - ID#246224)
Sanity is but a state of mind ..
IMF ( In My Fogginess ) . Will also sell my old used truck, appliances on the side lawn and second hand water- pick tooth brush to buy Bonds floated through a Cayman Is. "corporation". Will sell class ring and day- glo polyester disco shirt collection to buy Chinese bank stocks ( Red ) via Hong Kong market.

Also will clean all my 64's with a brillo pad and battery acid to "brighten 'em up a bit". Will keep my silver in can with 1 lb box of agricultural sulfur to help preserve them. Will roll up all Kitco printouts, put them in box and bury them to prove we were right after all ( and WAY ahead of our times ) !!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:29 - ID#364147)
Yes it does ( sorry )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:32 - ID#153102)
Somebody said go long sanity and short the IMF. The world has been going long on dishonesty and the con for a long time now. Persuasion is not going to wake sleepwalkers or reform the con man. Do you remember the townspeople, the Duke, and the King in Huckleberry Finn ? There's a connection between sanity and honesty. And as dishonesty increases, social insanity goes up with it.

If you've got a share in a producing gold mine, at least you have a share in capital, at least theoretically, if free enterprise ever does come back.

I guess I just paid too much attention when my Dad told of his Uncle poking around the ashes after the house burned down. After a while, he reached down and picked something up. It was the gold. Sent it off to the mint and in a while, he had brand new money in his pocket.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:38 - ID#153102)
Studio; How many daughters did Hitch have ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:41 - ID#35767)
When I talk of Washington DC I am not being political. What I mean is that as far as aesthetics/culture/theatre/restaurants/brew pubs IT and the surrounding area beats anywhere else in the country. The NEW MCI arena near China Town has only enhanced the entertainment sector. The crime rate in areaes of good restaurants/theatre and entertainment etcet is practically non existent. Most of th crime occurs in areas remote from the govt/commercial area. The festivals on the mall in the summer are great and as anyone can tell you the monument and park areas are fabulous. Even the FED the World Bank and the IMF have atractive architecture. If you are a WWII buff the Holocaust Museum is incredible. The detail and information available is astonishing it takes a full day to take it all in. Even better this and all the other fantastic museums are free of charge.

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:42 - ID#24135)
take yo court and .....
For the preacher man - -

I dont think you gonna goto heaven preacher man cause

you too dumb.

Of course in 30 years I wont recognise RSA you silly

boy - But you wont recognise USA either - Its all about

TIME mistah preacher - we is all screwed in de long

run - didnt you know ??? - this way I got 17 good

years away from the US - and who knows - if it

gets annoying here - guess what mr preacher - ill

leave - also old bean I had not planned on livin forever

and if you have I think you should shorten yo time

hoRIzen - I may be in Cyprus or back in australia but

not in the US where you and yo congregation will be TRAPPED!.

Now mr preacher you have been judged in My court

and found unfitting to wear yo collar. You is

unfrocked forthwith-

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:43 - ID#364147)
DC Suks~~~~~~~~ ( I prefer AC )

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:43 - ID#24135)
take yo court and .....
For the preacher man - -

I dont think you gonna goto heaven preacher man cause

you too dumb.

Of course in 30 years I wont recognise RSA you silly

boy - But you wont recognise USA either - Its all about

TIME mistah preacher - we is all screwed in de long

run - didnt you know ??? - this way I got 17 good

years away from the US - and who knows - if it

gets annoying here - guess what mr preacher - ill

leave - also old bean I had not planned on livin forever

and if you have I think you should shorten yo time

hoRIzen - I may be in Cyprus or back in australia but

not in the US where you and yo congregation will be TRAPPED!.

Now mr preacher you have been judged in My court

and found unfitting to wear yo collar. You is

unfrocked forthwith-

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:44 - ID#93232)
He had one daughter ( don't get your hopes up ) and here's the kicker...she was a Miss Oklahoma in the Miss America gig. He has one son, Paul, who might be available...Linda his wife would probably trade him for little or nothin'. He ain't too good lookin' though... ( squeal ) .

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:46 - ID#22956)
Lunchtime w/ afternoon soap.....ohmy.
StudioR - you have been killin me man...

......the cat, the cat...i see the cat...uh huh.

Ted - welcome back, winters nap? You got some great graphs and stuff to catch up on....git to it!

Go Freddie...Yu da' man!! You will be player of year in '98.....EB's prediction...right here, right now!!

.......Go Elway! 12 pts......hmmmmmm...I may just catch the Southwest shuttle to Viva Lst Wjeez and throw down some greenbacks... ( cause they don't take the A$, or en ) ....uh huh. Or perhaps I 'll contact Studio's bookme......duh.

Another is English....and who cares anyway...right bb?

Now what of the sure is a slow day today at must be the flu or something....................hmmm.

Back to work......grind, grind, grind...



go plat...tuesday will be good.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:54 - ID#376309)
To: oldgoldpanner
The commercials have been net long gold for almost an entire year! As far as silver, the commerials are almost always net short. Nothing new.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:54 - ID#35767)
TED why dont you move down here instead of Maine? They dont have casinos in maine and we are only 170 from AC. We also have the best brew pubs and great Wineries in Va.

John Disney what is it about the US you hate that is so much better in SA Cyprus or Australia?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 15:56 - ID#35767)
Super Bowl
Take Denver +12.5 ???

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:00 - ID#153102)
Just as well. Just about past even bird doggin'.
No, thanks, on the other. Already made too many trades where I got nothin' or less than nothin'.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:01 - ID#22956)
and I do like copper......and do your homework...
It seems like it should retrace to 92.50/94.00 area......what do ya say APH? Filling the gap at 92 is my first goal...and look to add on a pullback.....hmmm. I like seems obvious, too obvious...hmmm

looks like the bahamas found a home in D.A.....or vice- versa. D.A., what do you guys say? This copper thing.....oversold, no? Needs a bounce.....ohmy. pray tell this lowly trader.....I need a bone to sink my teeth into......yum, yum, good for the tum, tum...



(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:02 - ID#197289)
Not new - just unfolding.

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:08 - ID#24135)
now look - one and one is two -- and two .....
for Zadeek the magnificent

Im not upset - because I said there were 3 times as many

Blacks in rsa as nonBlacks and YOU said that the RSA

population was 75 % Black - you we AGREE you silly boy-

You see 100 % - 75 % = 25% and 75% /25% = 3 - yes 3 - you

got it !! YOu actually got something RIGHT - after months

of trying - hooray hooray .

And the Black population of the US is 12 % - not 22% - so

you blew that one -

Old buddy you just cant cope with numbers now can you ?? You

are just a misspelling and wrongnumber machine. Gimme a break.

I go back to sleep now - but first a vodka

and a word to my friend Boris who never annoys me because

he is a nice guy - You have to get a licence for a gun but its

not a problem - I have a .38. Come on over for visit - we

shoot trees and beer cans.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:10 - ID#31868)
Give the USA 5 years and you won't even recognize it.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:11 - ID#57232)
Art Bell and Gold
Skeptic: Interesting to learn that Art Bell is now talking about the suppression of the gold price to support paper money. Looks like the antigold mindset, so carefully constructed over the years, is crumbling. As Old Gold said ( I think ) today, it will take a major loss of confidence in the US dollar for gold to rise above $400/oz - - but even a rally from $280 to $400 would very very nice indeed! This would be comparable to the 1993 gold rally from about 334 to 400- 410.

It is difficult to invest in a precious metal such as gold, given the behavior of those who do not want its price to rise. It is very much like living near a lake where the water level rises a little bit every year. Instead of making a house that floats, the clever owner builds a dam around the house, adding another protective layer each year to fend off the inevitable. The only problem is that that dam can fail catastophically. The gold markets are very similar - - years of nothing followed by sudden activity - - when the blind faith in our paper currencies suddenly falters - - and then no amount of dam building can stop the flood.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:15 - ID#364147)
ROR................ya have ta be kiddin
ROR: An island eight miles off the northern coast of Maine is as close to DC as I want to get...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:16 - ID#252150)
While scrolling through yesterdays postings, searching for pearls of wisdom, I came across your mouse drop of excrement ( 03:31 ) . Your vitriolic attack on Canadians, on a Gold Forum sponsored by a Canadian Co., was specious & sophomoric. Your lame attempt at disparagement " can of duh",

reveals a pathetic lack of wit & imaginination.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:17 - ID#359316)
South Sea Bubble
Long- term economic Fractal cyclists would have us believe that the next downwave will exceed that of 1929, or indeed, of 1720, from which we might learn many lessons. While flicking through my copy of "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" [1852], I came across a list of nefarious "Bubble Companies" banned on July 12th 1720, which charlatans proffered on the backs of more conventional stock offerings ( which themselves were in no small part contained in the bubble ) . These companies caught my eye:


17. For carrying on an undertaking of great advantage; but nobody to know what it is.


36. For a wheel for perpetual motion. Capital, one million


For "ANOTHER" fans:

68. Another for the improvement of our breed in horses.

69. Another for a horse- insurance.

And now for some deja vu?

"...During the whole of the month of May the stock continued to rise, and on the 28th it was quoted at five hundred and fifty. In four days after this it took a prodigious leap, rising suddenly from five hundred and fifty to eight hundred and ninety. It was now the general opinion that the stock could rise no higher, and many persons took that opportunity of selling out, with a view of realising their profits... So many sellers, and so few buyers, appeared in the Alley on the 3d of June, that the stock fell at once from eight hundred and ninety to six hundred and forty. The directors were alarmed, and gave their agents orders to buy. Their efforts succeeded. Towards evening, confidence was restored, and the stock advanced to seven hundred and fifty. It continued at this price, with some slight fluctuation, until the company closed their books on the 22d of June.

It would be needless and uninteresting to detail the various arts employed by the directors to keep up the price of stock. It will be sufficient to state that it finally rose to one thousand per cent. It was quoted at this price in the commencement of August. The bubble was then full- blown, and began to quiver and shake preparatory to its bursting.... During the whole of the month of August the stock fell, and on the 2d of September it was quoted at seven hundred only.... On the 12th of September... several conferences were held between the directors of the South Sea and the directors of the Bank. A report which was circulated, that the latter had agreed to circulate six millions of the South- Sea company's bonds, caused the stock to rise to six hundred and seventy; but in the afternoon, as soon as the report was known to be ground- less, the stock fell again to five hundred and eighty; the next day to five hundred and seventy, and so gradually to four hundred...

[on the 29th of September]...the South- Sea company... stock fell to one hundred and fifty, and gradually, after various fluctuations, to one hundred and thirty- five.

Unfortunately I do not have a gold price for the period around 1720; it would be interesting to see what happened to it after the South- Sea bubble collapse.

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:21 - ID#215211)
@Oldman - Why do the liberals live in VA?
Answering the question with questions: Why do liberal/socialists like Sen. Feinstein carry concealed weapons or have bodyguards who do, then vote to disarm people who live/work in much more dangerous environments? Are their lives more important than the "Great Unwashed?"

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:30 - ID#31868)
After much reflective dream living and walking through the corridors within the Mansions of my mind I say this. I offer Camdesuss the following;


I must now discuss with myself the remaining part of my displeasure, distrust and abhorrence of the maggot Camdesuss. But that is unfair to the maggot, what crime did this diminutive creature commit that I might compare this part of nature's family to the thing known as Camdesuss. ( Apology to the maggots of the world for comparing Printin Clintin to them as well.

The mere utterance of its name causes trouble for me at this point as my Father told me that when you step in Camdesuss it gets on your shoe, since I walk barefoot much of the time I find this particularly offensive. This is as well unfair to fecal material as it serves a purpose.

I shall get back to you STUDIO_R as I must reconcile the thing Camdesuss. I assure you I shall not let you down in my interpretation.
(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:31 - ID#432137)
JTF - re. Art Bell & Gold
There's still ballooning.
( plenty of hot air around )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:33 - ID#364147)
Amerikans(only)......Happy Martin Luther King Day
Do people eat turkey for MLK day too?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:36 - ID#372344)
@ James.... Here Here ...Re Mozeland!
I hadn't read thru his post yesterday, glad you brought it to our attention..
This guy sounds like a Karlita 99 clone, the way he cuts and pastes anything and everything he reads and obviously believes about the
great USA, and yet has obviously no clue what the World thinks of his obscure view of USA. For his information we Canadians are the biggest
trading partners of the US and I might suggest top him our well being
is directly tied to the US economic well being ,otherwise Canadian
Nationalism will rise up and cut off our oil , gas,water,and raw materials supply to them, and burn their White House again!

Mozel get off your myopic views of CANADA and the World, yes
there is a whole real world out there beyond mozeland!

John Disney__A
(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:37 - ID#24135)
Hate ? who said Hate ?
for ror

I lost my first message to you in cyberspace.

I did not say I Hate the US - please tell me where

I said that ?? YOU SAID that !!

Now what I REALLY HATE is BULLSH!T and people

saying that I said things I did not say -

I dont want to live in the US because I like other

places better - Now ID RATHER live in the US than

in Saudi Arabia. Id rather live there than Lybia or

central Africa. But Id rather live in Peru, or

Mexico, or Chile, or Argentina, or Turkey, or Spain,

or Australia, or Canada, or England, or France, or

Italy, or Mexico, or New Zealand or ALMOST anywhere

really. But I dont HATE it. I just cannot think of

any good reason to want to live there.

Why do HATE people that dont want to live in the

US ??

I go beddybye now - please annoy someone else -

annoy zadeek - he can take it - ask him why he HATES

numbers so much. Seeyoulatah.

I go technicolor dreamland my favorite place

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:38 - ID#153102)
of mice and canadians
"Your lame attempt at disparagement " can of duh", reveals a pathetic lack of wit & imaginination."

Yeah, I know. Just another example of tasteless American culture. Sorry it caught your attention.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:40 - ID#359316)
Extraordinary Popular Delusions e-text
BIG file!

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:43 - ID#215211)
Thanks for the article. I heard about this theory but had not seen it in print. The NTSB statement is strikingly similar to the ATF statement that the copters did not fire on the Davidians. What they neglected to say was that the agents on the copters DID do the firing. And the Republocrats in the congressional hearing did not pursue this obvious perjury. Would a government which lies to its constituents hesitate to manipulate the price of gold?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:47 - ID#31868)
16:17 a great slap on the wall. Cheers, a shot of tequila at ya!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:51 - ID#302251)
OK kids, let us stop fighting.

I do admit that when I travel overseas,
I often meet many Americans who left the US.
A common reasoning for them is that the
quality of living in the US had diminished so much
because of black minority,
that in many other countries,they feel much better.

WOOOOOOPS, I was not supposed to say it ?

you better read my posts from yesterday:



00:07...this morning

(Mon Jan 19 1998 16:59 - ID#376309)
Limit UP!!!!
I have been catching up on my reading from Kitco. Yesterday some comments were made about Gold going limit up and shorts not being able to get get. Well let me tell you what the offical COMEX stance is on limit up moves in gold!!

If gold moves up/down $75.00/Oz, COMEX will shut down trading for a mere 15 minutes and then reopen with another limit of $75.00. It get vague here but I do not think it will reopen if gold moves up a total of $150.00 in one day ( Again I'm not sure, the manual talks like that can never happen ) . If the first limit up move ( up $75.00 ) happens with 20 minutes or less left in the trading day then the market WILL NOT CLOSE for the 15 minutes. Trading will continue.

The same goes for silver which has a limit move of $1.50/Oz, copper is $0.20.

In the energy markets the time limits are slightly different, in stead of 15 minutes they only close for 7 minutes with a limit move of $7.50/barrel.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:00 - ID#153102)
another dispatch from mozeland
"TZADEAK* I might suggest to him our well being
is directly tied to the US economic well being ,otherwise Canadian
Nationalism will rise up and cut off our oil , gas,water,and raw
materials supply to them, and burn their White House again!"

Will these demands for more economic aid for the ghetto mixed with thinly veiled threats of terrorism never cease ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:06 - ID#376309)
If gold gets above $400 then there would be a loss of confidence in the US. People think that the powers to be would never let that happen. Get a grip. They do not control the world. I think that gold will get above $400 but not until 1999. Sorry no limit up moves in 1998. I think that President Clinton will NOT finish his second term as President. This will be one of several reasons behind the move in gold.
Seriously, I'm betting all my democratic friends $10 each, the few that I have that admit to like Clinton, that Pres. Clinton will not finish his second term!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:07 - ID#372344)
@ mozeland.... in RIM Dreams.
You say that now, but wairtuntil your your trillions of toilet paper are
sent back by to you all by the world via Federal Express, than we shall see who lives in the ghetto!

Happy Dreams ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:07 - ID#243180)
ZIVA: How do U hyperlink your (other) messages on Kitco ?????

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:10 - ID#347457)
@all - living in Virginia
OK folks, no reason for bashing my good ol' state! Yes, I live in Northern Virginia, outside the DC beltway. Close enough to Blue Ridge mountains for hiking, yet close to Chesapeake Bay to enjoying sailing.

I don't go to downtown Washington DC much, except when business requires it, or when I go to see my daughter who lives in DC. Safety and crime in DC is overstated by the media. Yes, there is a significant crime problem, but mostly in the areas where any sane person would no go in the first place, especially at night. I am sure that you can identify such places in any metropolitan areas across the world.

No I dont plan to retire in this area but again, this is mostly due to my hobbies - mountains and sailing, and theyll probably take me away from here.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:11 - ID#254269)
@ glenn your 17.06; Why do you think he will not finish his second term ?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:12 - ID#252150)
We'll forgive old sourpuss this time. He was no doubt under the influence of booze or drugs...twinkies maybe. Besides I would'nt want to cut off their oil & gas. I have investments in a couple small companies that I expect to do very well with the Alliance gas pipeline project ( Alberta to Chicago ) .

Looks like tomorrow will be crunch time for POG. My Barrick held up reasonably well, but glad I sold 2/3 of it on Fri.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:14 - ID#57232)
Completion of Second term?
glenn: I am interested in your reasons why you think BC will not finish his second term. If we were talking about a president who was not popular with the press, he would not have been reelected, given all the "- - - gates" that are lurking. He has near total control of the press, so my guess is that it will take a major problem, like a military fiasco, or a market crash to shift the tide sufficient for anything lurking in the backround to bring him down.

I would be interested in your comments!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:26 - ID#41229)
Couldn't help it
Date: Sat Jan 10 1998 21:03
Someone once said, noone wants gold, thats why the US$ price keeps falling.
Many thinking ones laugh at such foolish chatter. They know that the price of gold is
dropping precisely because too many people are buying it! Think now, if you are a
person of great worth is it not better for you to acquire gold over years, at better
prices? If you

are one of small worth, can you not follow in the footsteps of giants? I tell you, it is
an easy path to follow! An experienced guide is not needed for this trail, look around
you and see. The real money is selling ALL FORMS of paper gold and buying
physical! Why? Because any form of paper gold is loosing value much, much faster
than metal. Some paper will disappear all together in a fire of epic proportions! The
massive trading continues at LBMA, but something is now missing? The CBs are no
longer lending! They will not anymore! We have reached production costs. Oil will
have nothing of gold paper if gold must stay in the ground! And a CB values the
wishes of oil far above its return of leased gold! Hear me now, if gold tries to go
lower than US$ $280 the BIS will buy it OUTRIGHT in the OPEN for all to see!
They must! They will! I know. For no currency system could stand if Oil were to bid
for gold!

Oil has kept the deal as the CBs sold paper to lower golds price! All is fair. Asia will
bid for gold not as in the past. They now know that the free flow of oil has more value
than the Pacific economy. But the price that was paid may be more than the world
currency system can endure.

To close:

The US$ has risen on a flight of fear. That will now end as the LBMA shorts are given
to wolves. If this fire burns too hot, gold will turn and its trading halted. The price of
oil will explode as gold becomes the world oil currency! Even now oil has locked the
IMFs gold, Asia will bid against them no more. We come to extreame times.

Risk not your wealth in paper, we enter a period of truth.

The only concrete information that Another has gave us that I can find. If we see a retracement below $280, ( which many see a $250 range ) could we then conclude the Another matter. I know one shouldn't judge a whole story by one sentence but it is the only sentence that we can verify.

Other sites seem to be intrigued by Another, funny how gold bugs are drawn to conspiracies.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:28 - ID#372344)
@ Clinton... and Horny Paula!
CNN just reported that in part of his deposition Saturday, Clinton
stated that a trooper "pick- up" Paula in a bar and F- - - - d her in his car
before taking her up to his office....

Paula and her lawyers had no comment and are desperatly trying to
keep this quiet and out of the upcoming trial.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:34 - ID#41229)
If we see Clinton go down from some of the past issues, such as sexual harassment, or election contributions. I would suggest to you that he allowed information out to be removed, to avoid more serious character damage from the economy collasping. I think he would rather go down as a sexist rather than the seated president during the melt down of the free world.

We can use Clinton as a indicater

Just a thought.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:39 - ID#31868)
Whore Gore
I want in a room with live video feed with this walking garbage and I will discuss Greene County, TN with him. Oh, and I will not let the garbage in NJ off the hook either. Yeah I eat pasta as well dimwit.

Mr. Vice President, you read the Internet and so do all of your robots, you know where I live, you know my phone number, while you are feeling so evangilical call me and call Mike Wallace and lets get this show on the air waves you lying ______ I have to invent a word for you as well.

Col. P. of Texas. Sir they never answer, Sir. I have not forgotten and I assure you Sir, I will never forget.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:46 - ID#254269)
@ tolerant 1; I am not getting the significance of Greene County, TN. Could you please explain ?

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:46 - ID#215211)
Leave to CNN ( Clinton News Network ) to attack the person who is not on trial. When are they going to broadcast the story about the 20- something year- old intern who claims that she and Clinton had sex in a room just off the Oval Office. And she reportedly has tapes to prove it ( of course the many hours of tapes of Jennifer Flowers and Clinton were ignored. )

In 1992 Clinton and Mrs. Clinton appeared on 60 Minutes to promise the American people that there was no more hanky- panky. Clinton has also denied any and all allegations in a court under oath.

Jones is not on trial and Jones doesn't have her finger on the nuclear button. If Clinton is lying, and there are apparently dozens of witnesses who says he is, he should be impeached.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:57 - ID#153102)
@refer @Another
The consensus in mozeland is that a free world would not melt down.

Another is a clever hoax constructed on two facts:

1. $280 is an important production cost benchmark figure for the gold mining industry worldwide.

2. The keepers of the Islamic faith are too honest to accept nothing for their something. I think they have all the roads, hospitals, mercedes, etc. that they can find any use for in those kingdoms and I don't think any King that would be King will exchange oil for paper. Nor do I think he would stand by and allow the controllers of paper to use their paper power to close down gold mining.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 17:59 - ID#347457)
@TZADEAK* (@ Clinton... and Horny Paula!)
It sure looks like more PR trouble for Clinton than Paula. Reminds me of a bunch of horny high school football players talking about taking gal for a ride. Not something I would expect from the president of the US. " yeah Joe this is Bill  bring her up, and if you get lucky on the way its fine with me  does not bother me at all.."
Yes, I would like for him to be out of the office before his term is up. Americans may be used to him but he is embarrassment to the US in front of international community. There was a bunch of reporters from Asia catching the news about his deposition. I bet their thinking was "look who is trying to tell us what we have to do"

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:00 - ID#215211)
Why the Newsweek story on a Clinton sex scandal was spiked
I think the group controlling the news media controls gold ( and everything else ) :

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:02 - ID#372344)
@ Dave in CO
I agree . However justice and truth as anyone who has had the misfortune of involvement in our legal system will know are not necessarily the same thing, in that we in North America are governed by the English adversarial type legal system as opposed to say the European truth finding type legal system, so as long as one is a good enough liar
and further one can depict your opponent is trailor trash ,than the law
is not concerned with the TRUTH .The mass jury will be easily influenced accordingly. Talk about values? No wonder alot of our kids are screwed up!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:05 - ID#31868)
Greene County, Tn. A dumping site of toxins. Fed mostly from NJ., Col. Purvis contacted me and wanted to find out if I was the son of the fellow I professed to be. He made his contacts in Washington D.C. as I instructed freely. My Father is my Father, what he taught me is infinity, freedom and the right for that freedom is any individual wishing to live free without a yoke, he taught me as well that it is not given but defended daily.

Upon checking me from his sources he called me and said "boy, you are the cannon I have been looking for." ( I am a teddy bear. ) Colonel Purvis and his wife had to leave TN due to death threats and arrived in the Great state of Texas.

The story was on CBS Morning about 4 or 5 years ago.

Look up Greene County, TN, maybe you will find the facts and maybe you will not. They poisoned the people there. I give no quarter to those that knowingly did what they did. None. Make no mistake about that Avalon.

These thing that were done, were done knowingly, for "money" done and I forgive not any of the participants.


It is on the Internet.

Al Gore is _____________

Bill El Zebub
(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:08 - ID#261352)
Is Echo Bay still a contender?I want to take a taste. Comments appreciated!
Either ECO or Mr. Dines recommends a spread:KEAN ( NYSE ) y2k hedge
Stillwater ( platinum/palladium ) ,Pan American ( silver ) , and Franco
Nevada ( gold ) .Thank you all.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:14 - ID#31868)
MIRO 17:59

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:15 - ID#31868)
MIRO 17:59
You are capable of better.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:18 - ID#372344)
@ Miro... Power Corrupts! Better for Gold If Clinton Stays!
Re your Asian friends who think Clinton is a joke, well he is into SEX
grabbing as much of it as he can, ( so did JFK ) and Asians and others are into money grabbing and scaming as much as they can, witness the last two presidents of Korea just to mention one example, let us not forget the
Japanese or Indonesians etc..... you get my point, it is either money
or sex or both!

IMHO I believe if Clinton stays, he will definitely be weakened which can
only be good for Gold!!!! Does any one Remember the Jimmy Carter days? Gold went thru the roof.........

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:19 - ID#28594)
This is a very rigid ( therefore not so great ) translation. But I wanted to be very sure I didnt smooth over some of the professors more pointed comments. However inelegant, it does give us a sense of the enormous disparity between what we, in the US, routinely read and what personages in the East are actually saying to the rest of the world. It is not an unimportant distinction.

SPIEGEL: Mr. professor Kawakatsu, will the world now copy Asia?

Kawakatsu: I do not believe that. We Asians have already mastered quite different crises: More than 150 years ago Asia was opened by force by the
imperialistic west and included into the world economy. The position, in
which Asia was at that time, was many more serious than today. Southeast
Asia was kolonialisiert - up to Thailand - and degraded to a raw material
supply base. On the other hand, today it concerns primarily a monetary crisis.

SPIEGEL: Nevertheless the Asians must submit now to the specifications of
the International Monetary Fund.

Kawakatsu: This change is too abrupt, in Asia it will release large social and political uncertainty. Nevertheless: In countries such as Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia the education level rose. Unemployment will rise at short notice. But it will show up on a long- term basis that these countries have outstanding workers. They are neither Sudan nor Bangladesch.

SPIEGEL: From where does this almost family linkage between employers
and employees come into Asia? Is a special feature of Asian culture?

Kawakatsu: No, this term one put on the thing later. The system developed
already before and during the Second World War in Japan. In the course of
their war preparations the Japanese had to mobilize workers of the
whole nation. Certainly, Japanese family values played also a role there, but in the rest of Asia is that again was quite different. So Chinese and Koreans have quite a different way of thinking about the family/family ties than the Japanese. While the Japanese adopt also non- - relatives for example, for Chinese and Koreans only blood gang counts.

SPIEGEL: And the asiatic tigers took over this model then from its large
model, that Japan AG.

Kawakatsu: Most eagerly the south Koreans imitated the Japanese model of
an export- oriented economy. They, as one knows now, made one however differently: They introduced plentiful foreign capital. In this point Japan was always most careful. The remaining Asians oriented themselves towards management and looked to Japan, therefore also the workstation warranty took over.

SPIEGEL: In Japan large companies still hold such as Toyota and Matsushita to the workstation warranty. The tiger countries cannot afford this luxury any longer. On printing of the IMF South Korea wants to amend the work laws, in the future should dismissals be possible for example.

Kawakatsu: In Japan that is different: In the eighties and seventies western experts studied our system. Rightfully they were surprised, why we mastered the oil crisis at the beginning of the seventies with fewer than two per cent of unemployed persons. Thus in Japan a certain pride developed of this system. Still one cannot abolish the system easily. All over 40years want to hold to it - younger ones are rather ready to accept more flexible work forms.

SPIEGEL: The IMF pushes the Asians particularly to a reform of their
moden financing. Can the asiatic societies bear radical such radical change under anglo- saxon market principles at all?

Kawakatsu: Not particularly well. But these countries do not come around
probably to orient itself in the future at market mechanisms. They have
nevertheless an advantage: Already in 16th and 17th century, Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia had active free trade that has been carried on for centuries, when Europe was mostly still in the Middle Ages. The Muslims traded with the Chinese with rice, porcelain, tea, the Indian with cotton, silk with jewels.

SPIEGEL: So far many asiatic countries, all emulated the Japanese, their
markets in front consciously before foreigners. Now foreigners are to be
allowed to possess the majority of domestic banks and companies. Does the business life in Asia take place in the future according to American rules?

Kawakatsu: I do not believe that. We take the example of Japan: As the country in 19th Century was opened by the west, thye wanted to find out about the Japanese: why they had been defeated by the west. Therefore they copied war plants, textile weaving mills, railways abroad. After the Second World War Japan produced that which the Americans already produced, only evenly more cheaply: Textiles, auto, ships. And these exports bought the Americans. This Japanese method copied first South Korea, late Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore.
The Japanese can amerikanisieren themselves just so much - they still eat rice. And that applies to all Asians.

SPIEGEL: Thus Asia doesn't become so western, how are anglo- saxon
investment bankers to hope?

Kawakatsu: It concerns a echo- viewing: On the page the western story progresses, however it becomes human, paradoxically, only when all view their own regional identity consciously. It remains only to hope that the western template runs smoothly.

SPIEGEL: Do you believe that the IMF understands the present tendency/ position in asiatic societies?

Kawakatsu: No, at present those see still very vaguely. They want to
force the American standard upon the countries.

SPIEGEL: Don't even therefore many Asians feel the credit conditions of the IMF as particularly humiliating - just like urging the opening of the
asiatic financial markets?

Kawakatsu: Yes, so much overt anti- Americaism. I consider this trend
extremely dangerous. So far many asiatic countries had coupled their
currencies to the dollar. This so- called Peg symbolized to a certain extent the confidence of the Asians opposite America - nevertheless that broke now. If instead of its these countries, instead of its western principles, are simply - - stubbornly - - put on to these countries, then it can come to an anti- Americaism, as it becomes already visible with of Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir.

SPIEGEL: How could this anti- Americaism express itself?

Kawakatsu: If everything turns only around the dollar, Asia could follow as counterreaction more strongly Japan. Japan possesses the highest foreign exchange reserves of the world.

SPIEGEL: Japan had suggested the establishment of an Asia fund, separately from the IMF. In countries such as Thailand the Japanese thereby encountered sympathies - for frightening the USA...

Kawakatsu: The idea of the Asia fund goes exactly into the direction of a
stronger regionalism. At the end the Asia crisis would lead then evenly not to the victory of the hundred percent free- market economy after anglo- saxon model, but to the break with the American model.

SPIEGEL: At the moment it is clear the American model in Asia is on the

Kawakatsu: Certainly, also Japan is pushed by the USA to open its financial sector - like beforehand already in other industryes such as shipbuilding, automobile industry and Chip making .Insofar as Japan took already over took much of the USA. In earlier centuries that was by the way similar: First we copied the Chinese, later Englishman and German - thus always stronger ones in each case. But as soon as there was nothing more to take over, Japan turned away from the models. Next the rejecting of America is approaching.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:19 - ID#254269)
@ tolerant 1; Thanks for your response, I was not questioning the basis of

your comment. I was just not familiar with the subject matter, as I am sure are many others. ( hope I expressed that correctly ) .,

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:26 - ID#31868)
I kneel before you, sword of truth before me. This particular thing was, is and shall be that which I will never let go of.

In any manner shape or form mine thoughts were meant to explain.

I truly appreciate your input and will give mine life for same.

Nuff said.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:29 - ID#210114)
Euro and CB Holdings
An interesting post by JTF ( ? ) suggested that US$250 was still on the cards because of European CB sales.

An interesting thought.

While I hope this doesn't happen, I think it is a possibility. Having said that, the CBs may wait and see what actually happens with the Euro. If it is weak and shows signs of sinking, the CBs may well hang on to their 'barbarous relic'. Once things have settled down, they may well sell. If it does get to 250, buy like crazy!!

Just another one of those maddening variables which is frustrating the crap out of those people who are trying to make a buck out of the noble metal.

Rally to US$400 in 1999............. Hope so!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:42 - ID#57232)
Asia from the Asian perspective
SDRer: Interesting post. It is not just as we are told: that the Asian system of finance needs better regulation, or that it needs to be more "open". The Asian culture is very different from ours, making comparisons of economic systems very difficult. The outcome of the SEAsian crisis is that there will be an Asian solution - - not the European or Western solution that we expect. In some ways, we are seeing the weaknesses of our own system reflected in what has happened in SEAsia.

The Asians, with their work ethic, and family- based education ethic will recover relatively quickly from this financial fiasco, though it may take several years. We can only hope that the Asian solution is a peaceful one. It will be interesting to see what will happen when it is our turn to have problems.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:47 - ID#376309)
to JTF - Re: why would clinton leave/get thrown out of office.
I do not know the exact reason but here are a few things to think about.
1 ) The stock market will turn south for real before he leaves.
2 ) A rapid oil price raise may very well happen, especially with the comments that Sadam made over this weekend ( He want a holy war to start if the UN is not out and santions are not lifted in 6 months ) . The santions will not be lifted in 6 months, is sadam going ot hold to his word??
3 ) If an oil price shock hits the US the economy will go down quickly along with the Presidents approval rating. It's the eceonomy stupid! Even without an oil price shock something could happen to our economy.
4 ) All the sandals he is in.
5 ) Paula Jones
6 ) He really is not as popular as the media makes him out as. The democrates will turn against him, desperate to save there party instead of hanging in there and supporting him when they realize that he may drag them down with him.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:48 - ID#376309)
that's scandals not sandals, sorry.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:49 - ID#302251)

Date: Mon Jan 19 1998 17:07


ZIVA: How do U hyperlink
your ( other ) messages on Kitco????? ) ID#243180:

1. Click on 'SHORT TEXT'......above.
2. Click on 'SUBMIT'.
Now, our wonderful Kitco will send you
only the begining of the messages,
3. Paste this hyperlinks into your message...etc.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:55 - ID#250251)
Gold on the slippery slope
All: Asia up while the US market's on vacation yet Gold once again slides down that ivory pipe. Why?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 18:57 - ID#376309)
BIS is that you Big Trader????
BIS is going to buy all the Gold if the price gets below $280??
This reminds me of Big Trader. He was going to buy all the gold in the world and take delievery of it, if the price went below $370.00 in Dec96.

Big Trader what happened?? Unless you've come back as the BIS.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:07 - ID#403277)
Does anybody know what's happening in Greece these days?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:13 - ID#243180)
ZIVA the magnificent

Now, how does one query on keyword. ( ex: ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS ) ) ???
I'd like to look over his postings over the past few months without going through each page manually.

Thanx again!!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:20 - ID#41229)
Last two posts of mine were not connected. The second post was trying to state that Clinton would rather be impeached on sexual harassment or some other charge rather still be in office if consumer faith was lost, Markets crash and then hyper inflation. With Another and his story aside, with the leveraged economies, aren't we still skating on thin ice.

Even if the facade remains intact, I still see an signifacant increase inflation. Market woes still very high, wait until trade imbalance starts showing up in corperate earnings.

I was just stating that Clinton will accept praises on economy when times are good, but the buck will be passed when and if it turns sour. And if things turn to hell in a handbasket, and he was impeached, he could say " It not my fault the republicans threw me out, and Al couldn't handle things, If I was there it wouldn't of happened."

I would suggest that him allowing himself to be impeached, would be the final play. Up to that point Clinton will do everything he can to avoid an financial catastrophey wether its within his realm of constitutional powers or not. ( He has a lot of IOU's out to Large Corps. and Foreign Nations for election proceeds. ) besides the ego let down on not going in the History books of the President who conquered the decifit

The budget deficit that is predicted at only 25 billion, what a joke, They're already thinking what new programs can be added. Of course this doesn't take into effect of the bail out funds they have already spent in asia or the next round of paper injection that maybe needed.

What happens when the rates do go up, the dept skyrockets, at some point U.S. will be viewed as a bad risk.

All these Karlito's 1& 2, LGB 1& 2 keep talking about the dept to the GNP ratio, thats fine when the econ. cruising along and good cash flow continues; but when there is a slow down the ratio increases exponotailly, due to the fact the people who are working, pay taxes, when ther not they're consuming tax revenue. Not only that but consuming as a whole drops off, so take away the revenue from the tarrifs, licenses, permits and so on. All the revenues are geared on exchange, wether its an exchange of work for $, goods for $, are being allowed to pursue venture for $. Any slow down of the exchange and gov. not only gets less revenue in but has more mouths to feed. Why do you think the easy credit is allowed, it is the only way to keep the exchange going. We know can finance 125% of our house, and you don't even need a good credit history. I ask again, why do you think that is allowed, is it not as reckless as the asians, what makes us any better! It is allowed because it is an necessary ingredient to this incredible economy.

We still are teetering on the conifidence cliff, that is why I was so intrigue with Anothers story, but question it to the fact that Arabs will only accept payment in Gold and legitmate questions are not answered, one is left with many doubts

But if the story went, The Arab country would surely sell oil to the U.S., but not in dollars, in something purchased of dollars, grains, auto's, in their own currency, and gold whatever, just not the dollar.
Maybe it has or is coming to that.

All it will take is one country to stand up and say, sure we like to trade with you, but we don't reckonize your currency, pay me in something else.

If you were investing in a corp. with a balance sheet of the U.S., would you invest? Whats the book value?

It will happen sooner or later, wether if oil has something to do with it, well...... thats ANOTHER thing.

My money is on thats its sooner, that's why I'm a goldbug

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:23 - ID#257148)
le loi....les droits...les aurators

Tzadeak: must say I am suprised to find a champion of the French Inquisitorial system of justice here, around so many libertarians. Although far from perfect, the adversarial system at least ensures that there is someone on the side of "the little people." Both Prosecutor and defender are represented. You are of course aware are you not, that in the French system there is only the Inquisitor? ( both systems look for "truth" ) And you know thatthe Inquisitor is a state servant? Is funded by the State, and ultimately holds the interest of the State as paramount? The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence? ( nor the french )


(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:24 - ID#287280)
JTF--yes, we seem to fall quite comfortably into the habit of accepting what we're told

- - EVEN when our mind- set is contra! It is quite inexplicable.

For instance: Zhu Rongji, Vice- Premier of things economic in China has said, China will take measures to increase the competitiveness of its exports. It has no need of and will not resort to methods that would mean a devaluation of the yuan And all everyone talks of is devaluation of the yuan against the dollar. The world economic contains a number of possible Chinese actions:I am becoming more convinced that they will Redefine the renminbi ( nenmin ( people ) + bi ( currency ) . Some study has brought to light some interesting considerations...I did not know, for instance, that the word yuan has a philosophical meaning in Chinese: ancient cosmology, abyss was defined as primal chaos, before creation.
More about this later. ( And about the golden bird cage! )
Take care. BBL

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:25 - ID#41229)
Sorry for the long post!

[ . . ]
( ||| )
- - - - - - -

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:32 - ID#31868)
The FBI was involved. In the summer of 1991 when they inquired about hazardous waste and dumping in Greene County, TN. Now I could not care less about some punk in a bad suit. If you want to be a fair minded American, a mutt, then you must want which that never harms little people.

Jimmy Cansler, look up that name. I say as an American let him hide behind the law and I will not only bury him, I will insure that he lives in a room with no service, no recognition.

Fuc_k him and everyone like him.

On this evening I am listening to Mr. Monroe, from the great state of Kentucky,. I have nothing against the fine people of TN, nothing at all, but this is murder against children and the unborn.

Jim Cansler you are a representation of that which takes and forces upon others that which is unhealthy to say the least, and I want you dead and gone.

Avalon, most do not speak openly, BUT, I do...

I am a peasant, I have slept under the stars with many around the globe, I seek not that which is the misguided hope of the adults but the open eyed innocence of the chirldren.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:35 - ID#317138)
Mozel-your 14:38
Your interesting comments contained the statement-

"Since you cannot pay debt with greenbacks, but only
discharge it, legally,..."

Could you please comment with a little detail on
the above quote, perhaps a reference? Thanks.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:35 - ID#432298)
Gold's inability to climb..........
Let it be known that the price of gold will bear great resistance to move upward, blame it on the bears. I blame it on Asia. Who would'nt devalue the price of gold, then buy it up at a cheap price to hold in reserve for when the price goes up, then sell to pay off their debts. The question is when are they going to stop the gold decline and start paying up?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:35 - ID#401237)
Feaux Gold
"Golden Globe Awards"
At lest somebody is using Gold - probably Fake.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:39 - ID#401237)
Gold 288 Bounce - I hope!
Feb. Gold
- 27
- 0.9

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:49 - ID#333131)
@dollar watch
$ stronger against all majors except the pound tonight. Gold down.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:52 - ID#432298)
I don't understand your meaning of gold 288.00 bounce. Can you elaborate please. Thanks.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:52 - ID#267276)
Lawrence Kudlow did a great job tonite on the newshour bashing the IMF,Hormats was introduced as an economist and not the vice chair of goldman sachs, so people would think that he was unbiased. Everyone who watches that show knows who he is, who do they think they are fooling ?

Mike Stewart
(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:57 - ID#270253)
Best Bargain out there???
I have seen several hopeful comments on ECO here lately. I expect that it is beaten up this week by the ejection from the S& P500. There may be better opportunities out there.

My bet for the best risk/reward is South Africa's Harmony Gold Mining. They say they can mine at a cash cost of $250, currently produce around 750,000 ounces and are down 75% since last March. They have no long term debt to speak of. That's HGMCY at about $2.25.

I felt the same way about Randgold at $1.00

Any other ideas out there?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:57 - ID#372344)
@ contraire mon ami !
I most certainly am and have been a devoted and practicing libertarian .
Believe me I am no fan of the French Inquisitorial System just as much
as I am not of the English adversarial, I was mearly attempting to describe
the obvious drawbacks in the latter, and thus the propensity for its abuse
by both sides. My reference to the European "truth" type was NOT a refrence to above noted Frech System, rather what I understood to be
a move in European Law to become more open in search of "truth"
something we here in NA sorely need in ours.I know here in Canada
Constitutional Law in still after 15 years or so in infancy. I don't believe our legal system is working, and is too biased in favor of power and money. I was merely trying to suggest we need to reform our legal system with the emphasis on "truth" and not necessarily on so called "justice".

Dave in CO
(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:58 - ID#215211)
@refer - impeachment
I agree with most of what you said but what's to stop a desperate president from declaring martial law due to any of the following or other likely scenarios:

1. The Asian crisis spills over to the U.S.
2. Domestic terrorism ( real or contrived ) becomes frequent and widespread
3. Y2K becomes our worst nightmare

Impeachment threats would fade away with a national emergency. This guy and the co- pres. won't go easily. When Maros ruled the Philippines for about 9 years, it took the threat of a revolution to oust him.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 19:58 - ID#401237)



(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:01 - ID#302251)

Date: Mon Jan 19 1998 19:13


( ZIVA the magnificent ) ID#243180:


Now, how does one query on keyword.
ex: ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS ) ) ???
I'd like to look over his postings
over the past few months without going
through each page manually.

Thanx again!!!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Kitco used to have search engine last year
but they remove it.

The rumuore is that we are talking too much nonesense.

If they will allow the public to go back and read
all the foolish things we said in the past........

And how wrong we were...........

And how many of us are now buncrupt ( financially ) ........

And which one of us ,
is spreading disinformation intentionally.......

And which one of us is talking in a manner
that is not "proper" about black people.......

And you could also ask: why US Naval Intelligence
is monitoring this website 24 HRS a day
from their naval base in southern Japan..........

In short...........
having a search engine is too much of a liability !!!

No, we better keep all the dirty stuff in the family.
So they removed the SEARCH ENGINE.
It is possible also,
that their programmer is incompetent...
Did I say 280 ?
talking about fools......

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:01 - ID#333131)
I watched the show and agree Kudlow did great. The transcript ought to be available on the web in a couple days. I'll try and post it.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:05 - ID#333131)
@dollar watch
$ losing steam.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:06 - ID#401237)
::::III\__/ III

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:08 - ID#26669)
Comments on PGMs for tomorrow?
After all you nice ladies have solved the world's problems, which way is
platinum going tomorrow? I'm frankly amazed at this SWC chart.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:15 - ID#267276)
If you want to impeach clinton try this, their way ahead of you.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:16 - ID#432221)

Hey, didja know that today,1- 19- 1998, is the birthday of a very prestiged and important man who had a major impact on race relations of his day, and ever since.This man led the battle to express his views as to how his people would be treated, namely with dignity and autonomy or suppressed under the heavy hand of unscrupulous master who had no regard to thier persuit of prosperity or the principals of the citizens autonomous relationship with their Federal govornment.
These people fought for thier beliefs and freedoms ,standing behind this hero of history, and some say they lost. The Federal govornment continues to supress them, and has developrd a huge web of associates to aid in the impoundment of the freedoms of these people.
But these people maintain the memory of what is right. Things do change over the years, morality blends to fit the ages, but these people know the limits and know these limits are stretched tight.
The spirit of the times and the man live strong.

BORN JANUARY 19,1807, DIED 1870
Robert Edward Lee

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:16 - ID#267276)
try again

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:16 - ID#288295)
Ziva @ Search Engine for Kitco

Is this the search engine you are seeking?

Lurker 777
(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:18 - ID#317247)
I'm worried.
Public buying

CB not selling

Mines closing

Bond higher

Yen stronger

Asia turmoil

Fed printing

Clinton exposing

Sadaam threating

Another predicting

Stars aligning


(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:19 - ID#41170)
Mike Stewart- I agree with you 100% about Harmony. and now acquired
Cons Modderfontein, the richest deposit in SA they should really
be OK. Problem is the trading on Harmony is very thin in the USA.
I own a bunch of Harmony!

I prefer Durban Deep because the volume can accomadate most any trade.
If gold stays down this might not be too good of a choice but if we
get a rise it could be VERRRY PROFITABLE. and iffin gold ever gets
to $500 you could be lookin at a $50+ stock. DD has enough RICH ore to get it through tough times. Two years ago almost to the day I was in the depths of DD. Now they have West Witts, Buffles and Blyvoors to pull from. I like those odds!

Tally Ho

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:19 - ID#432148)
Currency units needed to buy one ounce of gold: 1/9/98-1/16/98...
Currency 1/9- 1/16

USD Dollar 279- 290-

IDR Rupiah 2410000- 2460000

MYR Ringgit 1281- 1212

PHP Peso 12240- 11950

KRW Won 503000- 468000

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:20 - ID#28594)
The Time of India Jan 20 Tues
Demand for gold grows 45% in '97

Dubai: Demand for gold in the country grew to a record high of 736.74 tonnes in 1997, as compared to 507.76 tonnes in the previous year, the World Gold Council ( WGC ) said here on Monday. India has not only maintained its status as the world's largest market for gold, but has also become the fastest growing market, WGC chief executive for Middle- East Rolf Schneebeli said. He said Indian demand had grown by an astounding 45 per cent last year over the 1996 levels.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:25 - ID#427357)

THE END OF THE LINE... for the Silver Lease CON

Ted Butler is the worlds foremost expert in nuances, intricacies and ramifications of GOLD & SILVER LEASES. Many months ago he exposed the Central Banks ill use of Gold Leasing Operations. Now he shares his insightful observations regarding the Silver Loan CON.

And don't be surprised with future tactics intended to derail
what promises to be a very long and sharp price UPWARD spiral for silver.

...there is no way that the vast bulk of silver loaned can ever be returned.

That was then, this is now - the silver lease CON is over! Here's
why: the report may be read by copying & pasting the above URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:26 - ID#302251)
This search engine starts Jan- 9- 1998 !!!!!!!
All the good stuff was posted before......

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:26 - ID#376309)
my postings
yea! That's what I was talking about!!

I also stated to buy Crude Oil on Friday night and CL is up thirty cents already! ( I guess Sadam's statement didn't hurt either )

It'll happen, hang in there.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:27 - ID#341234)
To: Glenn
Glenn, I am surprised you said, I think that gold will get above $400 but not until 1999. I am actually becoming more optimistic. Finally, we are getting some mine closings and bankruptcies. Unfortunately, even after declaring bankruptcy, they are still mining!, at a loss!. Even with that, I think the rally could start before the end of the year. I am not talking about these stupid 2 day bounces that everyone keeps getting so excited about. A real rally will not be the result of a short squeeze. For a real rally, there must be changes in the market. These changes could be, but are not limited to:

1. Reduction in supply due to mine closings and lack of exploration.

2. Increase in demand due to flight to safety: weak dollar, inflation, etc.

3. European Community Central Bank decision on gold holdings. I think that they will decide to hold more gold than people expect. The World Gold Council has some excellent reasons why they should. See Luckily there are no dashes in their site name. Can somebody fix the text editor? Bart?

4. Central Bank loaning. Eventually, the Central Banks are going to reach the limit on what they are willing to loan. Loaning is just as bad as selling.

5. The market being smart enough to see these changes coming soon. A dumb market means a longer wait. Look at silver; they had to start running out of the stuff before there was a rally.

I have read a lot of posts about conspiracies. I do not think it is a conspiracy for Central Banks to sell or loan out their gold. It is their decision. Why should they care if they knock the price down for a year or two? After the mining is reduced, their stockpiles will be even more valuable. They can afford to wait it out.

If the Central Banks can wait it out, so can the long term investor. Dollar cost averaging is the way to go. Do not try to get rich quick ( unless Hillary Clinton is giving you investment advice, wait, that was cattle, and it was really a pay off ) .

Also, I want to thank whoever it was who posted the Nightly Business Report interview with Mr. Dines. I had a friend who missed it on TV.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:30 - ID#302251)
LURKER 777....(20:18)...............I LOVE IT !!!
( excluding my posts......obviuosly )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:41 - ID#41229)
Martial law
Not sure how that would play in this day and time, too many factor enter the equation. Society is much more unlawful, if you will, this day and age.

Military watched a city burn during the L.A. riots, They just camped out outside of the hot zone.

Just like Gold confiscation, I think it would cause a big stir, not the same sentiment today as in past, "Whats good for the country is good for me"

Neonazis would love to test their toys out. Probably attempt assasination.

Military does not respect President.

The National Gaurd for the most part would have responibility of inacting martial law. These guys do not have the same mindset as full time military. They would have a harder time of keeping communities at gun point. Also more apt to question Authority.

Bill loosening what friends he did have in congress. Not sure they would want him ruling in a crisis situation. Proof of treason would probably come out with dealings with china.

A Kennedy type solution.

Anything could happen, in my oppinion when it comes to martial law. Many unstable factions across this land.

All very Hypethetical, do not even like thinking of senerio's

According to some, the terriorist situation you pointed out has already happened. And out of that we got the antiterrorism bill that made it legal for gov. to do just about anything it wants in the way of wire taps and searching ones personal property just on probable cause; which means when they feal like it.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:41 - ID#376309)
I am also getting Bullish. I just think that gold will go up faster the higher the price goes. ie- it will start out slow and then GOOOOOO!
Anyway it can start soon and there is alot of room between here and $400!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:49 - ID#30116)
Dines speaks of asset deflation regarding stocks, bonds, commodities, and real estate. The rational goes something like this;

1 ) The dollar is in demand, we need to print more dollars to meet ( commodity? ) demand.

2 ) Foreign stocks and bonds crashing due to currency problems in home countries.

3 ) Foreign inability to inflate their own currencies because they bought in to dollar based instruments of one flavor or another. Thus they need dollars ( 1 ) .

4 ) Forced liquidations of assets to 'buy' dollars to pay off dollar denominated debts ( 1 ) .

5 ) Competing devaluations to aid export to the U.S. ( 1 ) .

6 ) Strong dollar ( for now ) will lead to export problems for the U.S.

Remember, interest is the risk premium paid for holding cash. Thus, cash is not risk free. Cash, fiat money, derives its' value from repayment and the interest paid on it, thus it is an obligation ( debt ) . It follows that the risk premium ( interest rate ) is based on the 'credit risk' of the derivative, ooops! I mean the credit worthyness of the issuer. No, wait, cash is payment... Ahhh! The hell with it! Just think of the dollar as another derivative.... I'm so confused! Maybe I should buy nuemismatics :- ) )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:49 - ID#41229)
Pretty Cool......... What is it? Looks like an owl.

Mine was a attempt of a face, with a teeth problem!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 20:56 - ID#401237)
I was just trying to capture AG's face, takes some time. I was wondering, does that slow up the posting on Kitco. I hope others can post while Another is posting. Wow, one can't get away from using that word. I wish there was another word tha could be used.

Oh well Another time.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:02 - ID#31868)
These are the days

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:05 - ID#210253)
Fidel Castro

Forget for the moment that he's a marxist, his reign is admirable. He is proof of the effectiveness of strong leadership. He has strong- armed the weak for 40 years, and now he welcomes the pope. So what's the deal? Is he suddenly concerned for his soul? Is he attempting to connnect to divine truth?

I would like to visit Cuba. Go Gold!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:13 - ID#243180)
Jacques Nassar, an executive at Ford Motor Co. --- is a RACIST.
While watching the "Nightly Business Report" ( NBR ) this evening I was struck by some several comments at the 1st Annual Conference of some Wall Street ... bla...bla...bla...

In an effort to pander to the mostly Black audience and to give a false sense that he is understanding of the black condition, Nassar said:

"... What's the favorite color in Germany ? ... [referring to automobile colors] ... Exactly the opposite - - bright colors. Now, someone would say that Germans are looking for something bright in their life - but- [laughter] I wouldn't say that - I wouldn't say that - but - there's another example of a national characteristic that you jump to immediately..."

Let's juxtapose some words for the fun: Germany= Liberia - - Germans= blacks.

Here's how it reads Ford Motor Company:

What's the favorite color in Liberia ? ... [referring to automobile colors] ... Exactly the oppostite - - bright colors. Now, someone would say that blacks are looking for something bright in their life - but- [laughter] I wouldn't say that - I wouldn't say that - but - there's another example of a national characteristic that you jump to immediately...

I wonder if the verbal legerdemain will be picked up on in the German community ??? - - - hmmmmmmmm- - - - - - -

Steve - Perth
(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:18 - ID#284177)
Steves specially edited: NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

Japan: the $164bn collapse

Soros rumoured to clean up in Korea

Falling metals spike Normandy

Is Asia qualifying for 'blood in the streets' time?

Cross rate gives lie to crisis



Russian Update

A New Economic Order is coming

Airlines cannot fix Y2K Bug in time ( Jan 15th article ) bin/update.cgi

Behind Hashimoto's Remark on Dumping U.S. Treasuries

Japanese Communist Party gaining ground with jaded voters

Deflation: Strategies to cope with it

China still haunted by devaluation

IMF - Now for the backlash

Why the world is watching China

US to convene more financial plotting & scheming

Crisis may eat Asian chips

Agricultural exports to South Korea grind to a halt

Profits of arms manufacturers will far due to Asian cancellations

Results indicate Gold oversold

Asian blowout feared for European car makers

Asia a worry for German banks

IMF blames sloppy banking for current crisis

Central Europe suffers emerging- market flu

Delinking HK dollar a different ball game

Taiwan prepares for yuan's fall by June - - just in case

Doubts over use of RBAs TWI in measuring balance of Trade with Asia



After 15 years the bulls are looking for a break

Reproducing the 1930s

Mid Level Officials lobbying for Chinese Devaluation!

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:19 - ID#267276)
Henry Ford was a early supporter of Hitler, believe it or not.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:20 - ID#284177)
Steves specially edited: NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

Japan: the $164bn collapse

Soros rumoured to clean up in Korea

Falling metals spike Normandy

Is Asia qualifying for 'blood in the streets' time?

Cross rate gives lie to crisis



Russian Update

A New Economic Order is coming

Airlines cannot fix Y2K Bug in time ( Jan 15th article ) bin/update.cgi

Behind Hashimoto's Remark on Dumping U.S. Treasuries

Japanese Communist Party gaining ground with jaded voters

Deflation: Strategies to cope with it

China still haunted by devaluation

IMF - Now for the backlash

Why the world is watching China

US to convene more financial plotting & scheming

Crisis may eat Asian chips

Agricultural exports to South Korea grind to a halt

Profits of arms manufacturers will far due to Asian cancellations

Results indicate Gold oversold

Asian blowout feared for European car makers

Asia a worry for German banks

IMF blames sloppy banking for current crisis

Central Europe suffers emerging- market flu

Delinking HK dollar a different ball game

Taiwan prepares for yuan's fall by June - - just in case

Doubts over use of RBAs TWI in measuring balance of Trade with Asia



After 15 years the bulls are looking for a break

Reproducing the 1930s

Mid Level Officials lobbying for Chinese Devaluation!

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:24 - ID#257136)
Tz: I shudder to think what kind of a conglomeration we might end up with if we TRY to replace our present system with anything other than the good ol' common law which was developed by the people, not the elitists.
It, rather than a new method which seeks only "truth" is what the Founders intended.
It has been supplanted by Caesar's law to such a degree I can understand why a thinking person would want change.
Change to what we had at the onset of the Republic. Don't regress to the Roman code!

223: Ilost all my bookmarks due to inadequacies in Netscape 4.03. I can't remember the websitewher I found the facts I attempted to relate in the post re: violence.
Perhaps a search of the militia and/or patriot sites?
Or maybe the Militia Watchdog?
Type those two words in on EXCITE or LYCOS and you'll get the urls for a supposedly neutral site which purports to present a balanced approach to the militia movement and Rights Guaranteed by the Second Amendment .

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:25 - ID#335190)
Labour @ Watch this very closely.
TRADE UNION LEADERSHIP - are policemen - Useful to to rule over, and against, the worker/citizen - Will the economic crisis in Asia, force these worker/citizen policemen, to become actual Trade Union Leaders ????

This news item. appears to suggest the worker/citizen will force these Union Leaders to represent the interests of organized labour.

Should any here at Kitco, be a working stiff, you will have to prepare yourself for a job loss eh! Maybe 3 million jobs lost, at the start. But, maybe it will end at 30 to 40% of workers unemployed. But hell, think on the positive side, there will be 70 to 60 % employment.

January 19, 1998
Study says Asia crisis could hit U.S. workers hard

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - A Washington think- tank has warned in a new study that more than one million Americans could lose their jobs as a result of Asia's economic crisis, feeding U.S. workers' fears the turmoil threatens their jobs.

Jeff Faux, president of the pro- labor Economic Policy Institute, said the jobs could be lost over the next two years as cheaper Asian products flood U.S. markets and U.S. sales to the hard- hit region weaken.

The study will be released later this week, before Congress reconvenes and considers a controversial request by the Clinton administration to give billions of dollars to the International Monetary Fund to help it fight Asia's economic crisis.

The study will fan the fears of labor groups that say the crisis will spread and hurt U.S. workers. It could also be used by IMF critics to lobby against funding for the agency.

As part of the IMF's multibillion- dollar bailouts for Indonesia, South Korea and Thailand, authorities have put painful reforms in place that have forced companies out of business and will make it easier for them to shed workers.

"It ( the study ) will not only add fuel to labor's concerns, but to everyone's concerns," Faux said in an interview. "There will be about a million U.S. jobs lost because of the increase in the trade deficit, assuming the Federal Reserve does not lower interest rates."

"You have imports coming in and you have a loss of export markets. There will be a lot of dislocation, and a big hit to manufacturing," he added.
Labor groups - - including the powerful AFL- CIO - - are beginning to weigh into the debate. "We have very grave concerns about the employment implications of the Asian crisis," said Thomas Palley, assistant director for public policy at the AFL- CIO. "The scale of the devaluations means we will see an increase in Asian imports and fewer exports to Asia, and that could cost hundreds of thousands of jobs over the next 12 to 18 months." USA- LABOR.html

Steve - Perth
(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:26 - ID#284177)
Double Post
Apologies for the double post. Re: Wetgold & Racism. I think you
are a bit sensitive on the racism bit. Maybe because it is so
overcast in Germany that they find bright coloured cars liven
the street environment abit. They may be easier to see in the
regular fogs etc, compared to dull cars. Germany's main problem was
that they were driven into financial poverty by the first world
war reparations. What do you expect they were going to do once
they were stirred up by a populist like Hitler? In light of that,
watch Asia very carefully. Racism/Scapegoats maybe. Poverty & war, watchout!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:32 - ID#243180)
Steve - Perth
One problem with typing - U can't see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek.

The comment preceding the early post from Mr Nassar went something like this ( paraphasing ) :

'What color cars do you think they prefer in Italy ... [pause] ... You may think red but it is actually dark blue, ..., black BECAUSE ITALIAN TAKE DRIVING SEROUSLY AND WITH PRIDE ...' ( end paraphrase )

If this guy was not pandering ....

The actual transcript will be out soon - I'll post it then ( if I'm not up some other rat- hole infested ars ... )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:48 - ID#257136)
ALL and especially 223 and those who favor right to keep and bear arms
The folowing site has a multitude of other urls. GOTTA SEE IT!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:48 - ID#243180)
Dines Letter's Past Predictions:
According to the latest letter on gold- eagle:

"... We have been bearish on the Japanese stock market since 1989, especially on their stocks and real estate. ..."

This guy does not impress me - - - Comments !!!!

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day ....

(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:50 - ID#284255)
Malaysia and Indonesia Propose Non-Dollar Denominated Trade
Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
January 20, 1998

Malaysia and Indonesia Propose Non- Dollar Denominated Trade

Malaysia and Indonesia reached agreement on Saturday to increase trade between themselves without using dollars. The decision to attempt to increase trade in their own currencies is extremely important, even though it is doubtful that the plan can actually be implemented. The importance of the proposal is that it indicates that the Asian financial crisis is moving to the next stage, that of enclosure. Malaysian Prime Minister Mahatir Mohamad, long an advocate of increased Asian cohesiveness and self- reliance, made the reasons for this move quite clear. He stated, "We need to work out the mechanism of trade simply because we do not have enough dollars or hard currencies to be used for imports and exports so we need to find a way of doing out trade without a resort to foreign currencies."

The catastrophic collapse of many Asian currencies has created a serious dilemma. The common currency for international trade in the region has been the dollar. When dollar reserves were ample and currencies were stable, trade in local currencies was possible, but trade in dollars added a degree of security and stability. The collapse of dollar reserves means that dollars are inaccessible and that therefore, regional trade has become difficult. This is compounded by the fact that the relative values of regional currencies have become inherently unpredictable. Simply put, no one knows what they are worth relative to each other from day to day.

This agreement focuses on a two- tier approach to the problem. Malaysian and Indonesian currencies need to be stabilized relative to the dollar. Even if this can't be achieved, a bilateral stabilization might be achieved, in which Malaysian and Indonesian currencies might reach a stable balance, permitting essential bilateral trade to continue. This is, of course, extremely difficult to achieve, since the level of confidence in
either currency is insufficient to permit trade. This problem is compounded when the entire basket of Asian currencies is included in the equation.

The dilemma is this: Asia must find an alternative to the dollar if it is to stabilize itself with regional trade. The logical candidate is the yen. Unfortunately, Japan is barely healthier than its neighbors. Japan's
endemic banking crisis makes it difficult to inspire confidence. Some proposals have been made to create an artificial Asian currency against which to peg regional currencies. But joining weakness does not generate strength, and the idea of a stable artifice stabilizing currencies like the Thai Baht and Indonesian Rupiah is not credible.

This means that, try as they might, Asians can't shake the dollar habit right now. They need it- - and hate needing it. The Thai newspaper Krungthep Thurakit, in an editorial discussing the visit of U.S. Deputy
Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers, wrote, "For a full six months the Thai people have been facing bitter economic hardship without any offer of help from our great Western friends, especially the United States... Our suspicions increased when we learnt that the visiting high- level U.S. delegation also pressed Thailand to yield to White House demands for the acceleration of market liberalization which will benefit the United States tremendously."

One cannot underestimate Asian bitterness at the United States. A strong conspiracy theory is being generated, in which the origins of the economic crisis are not to be found in Asian mismanagement of their economies, but in an American conspiracy to unfairly force open Asian markets to American goods. Needed reforms are being perceived as an American maneuver to gain advantage. This sentiment is powerfully seductive. It explains the crisis while absolving the Asian elite. It justifies the pain by blaming it on the United States, a view strengthened by the fact that the U.S. is finally in a position to impose the lifting of trade restrictions in exchange for help.

We have consistently predicted that one of the political consequences of the Asian collapse would be tension and estrangement between the United States and much of Asia. The proposal for Asian denominated trade is impossible at this point. As Asia stabilizes at a relatively weak level, the search for a stable Asian currency will continue. This will particularly be the case if the expected surge of low- cost Asian goods into the American market results in either American protectionism or even more aggressive demands for Asian trade reform. In either case, Asia will be looking for regional alternatives to American power. They will therefore seek to reduce their dollar dependency.

Mahatir has pursued this goal since the early 1990s. He will continue to pursue it and will now find ready allies. We doubt that an Asian ECU will emerge. However as the crisis passes into endemic malaise, there is one currency waiting in the wings- - the yen. The last thing that the Japanese want is to become the reserve currency of Asia, particularly if it increases problems with the United States. Japan is simply too dependent on American markets, as is the rest of Asia. It is precisely this dependency that now permits the United States to dictate terms that can neither be resisted nor lived with. That is why the logic of the situation points to the long- term implementation of Malaysian- Indonesian type agreements on a regional basis. The time is not yet ripe, but the time is coming.


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or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at, or send your name,
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(Mon Jan 19 1998 21:56 - ID#225273)
WetGold & Dines

James Dines impresses himself so much, he doesn't need to impress you.

The Preacher

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:06 - ID#335190)
USofA Secretary of State, Albright @ "We are not giving money - IMF is giving CREDIT"
January 19, 1998
Albright defends IMF bailouts

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Secretary of State Madeleine Albright denied on Monday the United States was surrendering too much money and power to the International Monetary Fund.

In an interview with Reuters, she stressed the major role the United States plays in IMF decision- making and rejected critics who say U.S.- backed IMF rescue packages for Asian economies in financial crisis are "bailing out Wall Street."

"We are a major part of the IMF" and have substantial voting power under the institution's weighted voting system, Albright said.

She also took issue with critics who "are saying the IMF is bailing out Wall Street."... "That is not what is going on here ... Actually, we're not giving money. The IMF doesn't give money. It creates a credit situation so countries can borrow and it's paid back at interest ... It helps those countries recreate strong economies," she said.

Albright noted that some critics have suggested "looking at ways to adjust the IMF ( and ) perhaps down the road that is appropriate." For the moment, "we do have a crisis with which we have to deal with now," she said.

She did not elaborate on this point. But a senior official later said the only adjustment the secretary of state was referring to was creation of a possible "early warning mechanism" that could better signal a potential financial crisis. She was not suggesting a broad review or change in the IMF system, he insisted.

Bailouts for Asia's battered economies have sparked a debate in Washington over President Clinton's economic priorities, and whether the United States is surrendering too much money and power to the IMF. ALBRIGHT.html

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:06 - ID#26669)
a.j. demographics&violence:
Well, thanks for trying. Perhaps someone else has the citation. I know there have been several studies commissioned on the subject...and not by any crackpot militia groups. One just has to walk through a few big city hospitals to see the evidence before their eyes. I've just not see anything published recently. The trouble is that grant money dried up years ago for such areas of research. IMHO

IMHO determinants of violence within population groups are pretty cut and dried. Drugs, alcohol, unwed mothers, ignorance, poverty, mental illness, lack of religious/moral upbringing. And chances are things will get worse as the disenfranchised get further from the minimum required education to understand how to live in postindustrial society. Such 'great idas' as affirmative action just cause friction and further alienation.

IMHO efforts to reduce the common denominator of education and social awareness in order to make everyone equal just won't work, about like the efforts to educate the citizens out of liking gold. A quick look at the statistics of the private/home education movement is just as revealing as is a walk through the mall to look at all the gold citizens are wearing.

FYI here is one link I did find, from pretty straightforward sources. And from my perspective from trenches on the front lines in the war on violence/poverty/drugs I'd say they have the straight skinny: IMHO

Sometimes I wonder if the war against gold might be an attempt to reduce the flow of alternative currencies which could be used by the drug producing nations. If so, I'd think a better plan would be to merely inflate the hell out of the dollar so as to wipe out the value of the dollars gained by the cartels. Then they'd have to ship drugs in in exchange for much less real wealth. IMHO

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:07 - ID#30116)
sharefin - - Do you think at some point, these fine examples of gubament officials ( sarcasm intended ) will figure it out? In a nutshell, gold.

To gubament boyz;

Face it guys, gold has the attributes that you desire ( as in gold standard ) . Gold is not anyones liability, it constitutes payment in and of itself. Payment in gold concludes the transaction. PERIOD. There is a downside though. You won't be able to inflate the @#$$ out of your money and have it linked to gold. I know, I know, it's tough to be forced in to an honest payments system. Ain't life a bitch. And those transfer of payments known as taxes...

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:11 - ID#243180)
my post @ 21:13 in incorrect
This information was not from NBR but rather "Jim Lehrer's NewsHour".

I had them both one tape and had just re- watched it... SORRY!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:13 - ID#210253)
Here's the deal

I get Summers!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:14 - ID#302251)
This time, 400 will just be the begining.
The problem is no Kitcoits will beleive us this time.

Do you remember how wonderfully bullish you used to be,
all the way down from 395 to 360
and than you left us.

Anyway, I M happy 2 C U back.

Looking at the world around us,
I am desperately looking for any signs
that OLDMAN is right,
That GOLD is going to 250.......
Could not find anything!!!!!!

If it will ever be at 250,
because of the current GOLD manipulations,
it will be for a short spike only, IMVHO,
just to make OLDMAN happy.........

I have to leave you now,
My husband is returning from his
"business trip" with his secretary tonight,
am I preparing a surprize for him....

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:17 - ID#427357)


The Dines Letter was the world's only investment advisory to have predicted the Asian currency crash in advance. Some of these past 18 predictions are already coming true.

During the last two years the internationally recognized market analyst, James Dines, has made some incredibly audacious predictions... and they are turning out as he foresaw them. Here is a review of his fast- forward & quite accurate view of the current currency chaos sweeping ALL ASIA.

To read the report, copy & paste ABOVE URL to your Internet call- up window ( Location or Go To ) , then hit ENTER.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:25 - ID#270295)
I gullibly dollar- cost averaged myself from $6 down to $0 on PGU!! I'm sensing a similar urge to do the same on ECO. Self destuction has'nt been a part of my nature until recently. Can anyone save me?? My 3 month old baby's college fund is in grave danger. Is in fact PGU worthless and has my entire investment evaporated?? Is the same fate in store for ECO??? Can PGU ever come back from the dead, and be traded again?? Forgive me if you kind people have already answered this question. I think I better keep my day- job!!!!

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:26 - ID#261157)
A....GOLDBUG is watching!!!!

I ~ ~ I
I o o I
$ $
$$ ( vvvv ) $$
$$ $$

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:27 - ID#266105)

The gold they long

( a dollar they short )

Go gold they say

( drop dollar exhort )

Thousands an ounce!

( pennies a buck )

Don't wait to pounce!

( the buck's outta luck )

Gold is cheap!

( the buck's overpriced )

And beautiful too!

( George needs a 'doo )

Back up the truck!

( dump all your cash )

Can't wait a moment!

( if it burns do it fast )

Didn't you see overseas!?

( they look pretty cheap )

It's coming here next!

( Giant Frog's gonna leap )

Gold is oppressed!

( the dollar is free )

They're keeping it down!

( and Elvis ate three )

They can't do it long!

( but they caaAAHHNN do it short )

I'm hanging on!

( for bugs that's a quart )

Where do I buy unreportable?

( to hide a loss? )

How do I hide in my plumbing?

( use mental floss )

We need change in perceptions!

( pocket change I perceive )

I bought five more Maples!

( his tree he did leave )

It's the CIA!

( and maybe your wife )

There's still time!

( place a call on a life )

The Fed's on the loose!

( chewed through the restraints )

There's no tomorrow!

( then no more complaints )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:29 - ID#335190)
Holocaust on trial @ Paris (Book Burning next eh!)( when will first nation's people, be recognized?)
January 19, 1998
Palestinian rally supports Holocaust skeptic in wake of Arafat flap

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip ( AP )  Following a flap over Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's snub by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, dozens of Palestinian intellectuals rallied Monday in support of a French author who says the Holocaust was a myth.

About 70 professors, journalists and religious leaders protested in front of the French Cultural Centre in support of Roger Garaudy, on trial in Paris for denying the Holocaust. His book, Founding Myths of Israeli Politics, argues that the Jews inflated the number of Holocaust victims for political reasons.

The group carried banners reading "Garaudy, all of Palestine is with you." Naim Tubasi, head of the Palestinian Journalists' Syndicate, said the Palestinians were protesting the French law "that criminalizes all those who doubt the Zionist tale of the victims of the Holocaust."

The rally highlighted the chasm of misunderstanding between Israelis and Palestinians and their ongoing refusal to acknowledge the other's suffering.

Palestinians are taught little about the Holocaust, and a common refrain is that the creation of Israel caused Palestinian suffering. Arafat's planned visit  at the suggestion of the State Department  to the Holocaust museum in Washington this week appeared to be a step toward bridging that gap. The museum, however, said Arafat was not welcome to make an official visit because it could involve the museum in political disagreements between Israel and Palestinians.

The museum, built with private funds on public property, is partially subsidized by the U.S. government. The snub set off an angry debate in Israel, where many commentators said an important opportunity for reconciliation had been missed and several Holocaust museums in Israel issued their own invitations to the Palestinian leader. Yad Vashem, Israel's state Holocaust memorial, said Arafat would be welcome if the Israeli government invited him.

Top aides to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, however, said they agreed with the Washington museum's decision because of anti- Semitic and Holocaust- denying remarks by Palestinian officials.
Israel's Haaretz newspaper, in its main editorial Monday, said Arafat  and
all Arab leaders  should be welcome visitors at any Holocaust memorial.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:36 - ID#411259)
..... Fred .....

Fred -

Remember, the reason gold producers sell forward is to lock in prices. I have read figures that some producers are sold up to 80% five years forward. Doesn't matter what the price of gold is today, they already sold it at a much higher price. They will be diggin' the stuff for years to come. Those that did not lock in higher prices will fail if gold stays down here much longer ( I don't think it will ) . They deserve to fail. They will be absorbed by the larger, more successful producers who had the good sense to hedge their production. As Paul Harvey is wont to say, "Now you know the REST of the story".


Read "diggin" in the literal sense as opposed something real 60's like, "I'm really digging' how much cash we're getting for all this here gold we're diggin".

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:38 - ID#307360)
Lies, damned lies, and demographics

I assume everyone has heard the standard mutual fund buy and hold arguement based on demographics which goes as follows: 1 ) the baby boomers are afraid of retiring poor, 2 ) they have no choice but to buy the stock market ( insert: why never gold!? ) , 3 ) the oldest boomers won't retire until 2010, 4 ) therefore back the truck up and buy stocks because we have at least a twenty year honeymoon in stock market returns.

This sales pitch has always bothered be for many reasons including the lack of regard for valuation and the assumption of fixed supply of investments.

The January edition of the Canadian MoneySaver included an even more interesting torpedo: The largest age group in Japan during the 1990 crash was 40- 44.

Moral: tales of everlasting honeymoons at the top of bull markets and and the death of any investment ( ie:gold? ) at the bottom of a bear simply reflect the mood the market is in, nothing more.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:42 - ID#210253)

So what's "Global Intelligence Update". Is this your imagination, or a legitmate news gathering organization.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:42 - ID#411259)
..... All at large .....

Allow me to hold forth my own extraordinarily and completely humble opinion on DINES.

He's a schmoe.

Feel free to quote me on that.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:45 - ID#341234)
To: RJ
Just one question. If a mining company's variable cost of production is $320 and the market price is $285, would they still mine the gold to cover their forward contracts, or would they just sell the contracts?

My guess is that they would continue mining for a while because the cost of shutting down mines is so high. I think that eventually they would realize that there is more profit in just selling the contracts.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:46 - ID#261157)
Another Goldbug is watching too!!!!
I..o.- .o..I
$$. ( vvv ) .$$

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:50 - ID#30116)
RJ, how did you manage to cut off the rest of your post like that?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 22:57 - ID#341234)
What's in a word?
Look at all the things you can make out of gold:

old - the world's oldest form of money

log - it does not grow on trees

dog - man's best friend

god - no comment

do go - and buy some

Did I miss any?

( sorry for such a lame post )

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:00 - ID#93232)
@2BRO2B...your 22:27
That's cool stuff, Elvis ate three what? Jelly donuts?

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:09 - ID#93232)
How 'bout Ziva's 20:41?
Check the last paragraph out....take a print...take fingerprints...motive is there....Justified homocide...except it was premeditated. I don't know nuthin'. Remove the post, Bart.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:10 - ID#288260)
Looks like the handbrake is dragging on the Asian markets tonight

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:11 - ID#266105)
Just foolin' around.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:12 - ID#93232)
Ziva's 22:14.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:13 - ID#335190)
Cambior & Barrick @ Quebec
January 19, 1998
Cambior takes over Quebec gold mine from Barrick

MONTREAL ( CP )  Cambior Inc. said Monday it will pay $136 million to buy the half of its Quebec gold mine held by Barrick Gold Corp., giving the Montreal company full ownership and control of its operation. Cambior also announced it will issue $75 million in new shares to help pay for the Doyon mine in Quebec's northwestern gold belt.

In the context of falling world gold prices, Montreal- based Cambior believes it can increase production and lower costs by owning the whole mine and operating it. Barrick, Canada's largest gold producer, is the mine's current operator.

Cambior also owns the Mouska mine adjacent to the Doyon. Henry Roy, the company's senior vice- president, finance and administration, says operating the two as one will save costs and help the company compete in a tough international gold market.

Barrick wants to focus on larger and lower cost mining properties in the United States, Northern Ontario and South America.

Barrick spokesman Vince Borg said the Toronto company's share of the Doyon mine only produced three per cent of Barrick's gold last year, and operating the property took up management time. "That asset ends up doing more for Cambior than it did for us," said Borg. "We'll take the cash and redeploy it."

As part of the deal, Cambior will also swap some exploration properties in the region with Barrick. In addition, Barrick will share in future gold revenues, to a maximum of $30 million, if the price of gold goes above $375 US an ounce,

Bullion prices were set at $287.25 US an ounce on the London market Monday afternoon, down $2.75. Cambior said the Doyon mine has not performed well during the last two years as the result of a strike, lower bullion prices and expansion costs, but it should improve in 1999. "Ninety- eight is still a transition year for us," said Roy in an interview.

Cambior's goal is to achieve annual production of 245,000 ounces by the year 2000 at the Doyon mine, with an average direct mining cost under $200 US per ounce. For 1998, production has been budgeted at 176,000 ounces at an average cost of $245 US per ounce. The Doyon mine, 40 kilometres east of Rouyn- Noranda, has been producing since 1980.

Cambior bought its half in 1986 from a Quebec agency, while Barrick got its 50 per cent in the acquisition of Lac Minerals in 1994. Barrick still owns the Bousquet mine in the region.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:19 - ID#284255)
I guess you get what you pay for.
How can the gov'ts know?
When the best minds on Kitco are confused.
Including me.

Try the site for yourself?
They email you their opinions for free.
I guess you get what you pay for.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:21 - ID#215379)
Malaysia and Indonesia
Solution to their problem finding a trading medium other than the dollar: Use E- Gold....

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:25 - ID#411259)
..... Post all there .....


Hedging production is dynamic and complex and very fluid. Some contracts will be filled by delivery, while others will be bought back at lower prices for a cash profit. A skilled and lucky producer can make money for years - except in a static market - by hedging production. They are traders like everyone else.

Panda -

Whose post was cut off? Look's all there to me! ( sigh of relief )


(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:26 - ID#41229)
Srudio.R@Ziva's post
Not sure what you ment.

Also wanted to clarify Kennedy solution in my 20:14 post in that I meant govs. solution like in the movie JFK.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:31 - ID#41229)
Reread her post and got it.

I thought you were refering to my 20:41 post.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:36 - ID#93232)
Sounded like she was goin' to blow her old man away. Eeeeeeekkkk! I don't know nuthin'.

away! studiopolousseenospeaknohearno

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:39 - ID#284255)
``The Asian crisis is still very much in place,'
Asian improvement may shift US mkt focus this week
The ``bullish sentiment in Asia'' bodes well for the yen and for Asian stocks.
Durrant said that while Asian stock markets are moving up, currencies are not. ``That tells us that economically the fundamentals haven't switched,'' he said, adding that overall improvement in the region may be ``more remission than reversal.''
``The bond markets are in a period of consolidation,'' Berner said. ``The flight- to- quality bid has been pretty much purged from the Treasury market. People are more likely to focus on U.S. fundamentals.''
``The key issue is what's going to happen to corporate earnings in the next six to nine months,'' he said. ``A lot of companies have and will continue to blame, rightly or wrongly, what's happening in Asia for any shortfall. That will have impact on equity markets. I wouldn't say we're out of the woods in terms of the impact of Asia on the U.S. economy and financial markets.''
Braverman said the factors that drove bond yields down - - particularly the ``Asian meltdown'' - - will be reinforced in the long- run and any weakness in bonds this week would be a buying opportunity. ``The Asian crisis is still very much in place,'' he said.

(Mon Jan 19 1998 23:50 - ID#42371)
@ Dr Bob
PGU traded a tidy volume on Toronto today. It close up 33 cents so some people must be picking them up on spec. unless it's the shorts covering. If the creditors agree to convert debt into stock they might have a hope... Certainly the creditors can't hope to get much on the dollar selling used mining equipment and expensive mines.

At least you got a few years till your kid needs the college money.

You may want to cosider a low cost producer, eg Agnico Eagle ( AGE ) , it is off it's lows nicely and will benefit from a late gold rally unlike some of the expensive producres who may be too dead to revive by then.