Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:04 - ID#24135)
The Givatron
for AJ
Strange that you should reprimand my brother Oris for
not knowing of Irag fiendish plot to spread deadly
desease of mass destruction by transporting in secret places
that you very unlikely to check out in public.
Brother Oris has been working on machine ( Givatron ) that
can check out 45 secret places an hour. He has reported it
on this site. Where you been bro??
I am one of his agents. Family model sells for 100$ plus
20$ mailing - allow 2 weeks for delivery. Order NOW and
receive free pair sunglasses and 2 pair sandshoes.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:04 - ID#373403)
Something does not add up
We are going very far out on a limb with our foreign policy regarding Iraq. Open global markets and bomb select dictators?

What about Iran? They have sponsored alot of terrorism as a state and they are developing long range missile capabilities. I wonder what Syria and Libya are working on?

Our actions are not being taken for oil this time and global security based on this hardline policy will fail as technology sweeps the developing and underdeveloped nations.

I wonder what is truly making Clinton push so hard. I do not even believe it is his current Lewinsky problem. Someone is pulling his strings from behind the curtain.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:06 - ID#345268)
@ 6pak

Need to protect from terrorism while travelling.
An easy way is to buy a few Canadian newspapers.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:09 - ID#24135)
Where is the nearest nuclear free zone please ??
Your post made me THINK. YOU are right. Lets not take
chances ... NUKE them ALL.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:11 - ID#373403)
"Brother Oris has been working on machine ( Givatron ) that can check out 45 secret places an hour."

I have a tool that can check out one or two secret places in about 15 minutes.

Oh by the way, gold is at $299.50

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:13 - ID#31868)
John Disney_A
I wanted to say thanks for your posts on deep and harmony. I certainly have not got your background or understanding and your posts have filled in huge gaps in my thinking.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:13 - ID#227238)
ROR: I've been thinking about your earlier lament. Namely the disappointment you have discovered in a succession of tin pot messiahs of the political sort. Perhaps it's time to recognise that this democracy thing, as it is presently constituted, is a swindle. At best.

The lineage of popularly elected social dictators, passing as presidents, is easily traced to the misconception that, lying deep in the public psyche, there is some magical solution to every problem - real or imagined - that confronts us. Moreover, there is also the expressed belief that the unwashed masses are able to, somehow, select the "best and the brightest". The masses are told the fairy tales at each election cycle and what's more, they believe them.

Both assumptions are false and history stands in humorous testimony to the fact.

If we begin with the proposition that simple majorities will carry the day and couple that with a realization that 50% of the population is below median intelligence, there is no great difficulty in concluding that the mythical advantages of ( present day ) democracies are just that. A myth.

In light of the above, it is not difficult to understand why the level of campaign rhetoric is also abysmally low. Who is being pandered to and why? It also follows that, until something is done to reform the franchise, the situation will only follow the trend of understanding in the body politic and continue its descent to an absolutely simian level.

It should also be recognised that the present power structure has a vested interest in strictly maintaining the low level of understanding level in the population. For if it were raised, the present power structure would likely collapse. Federal involvement in education has only made the situation worse ..... at far greater expense. Who benefited? Certainly not the young.

Perhaps it's time to cease looking for solutions in the form of new, better, more capable chief executive because even if that person exists and assumes office, the fact still remains that the system is fatally flawed. And until hard choices are made, it will not be fixed.

In the meantime, quietly disassociate yourself from the damned system. Protect your resources and be prepared, and in a position, to help family and friends should the need arise. Recognise that the messiah ain't coming and the present system will continue until something more powerful overtakes it.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:14 - ID#257148)
Nuclear-Free Umbrella
Well I'm sitting in the middle of one. How much use it is has yet to be seen. Then again, we got this heat wave, the whole country is supposed to be out of fans..

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:16 - ID#335190)
D.A. @ 23:45
"Putting aside nationalities, doesn't it bother you that someone"

D.A I am very sorry to say this, I truly am, but, you have stated a remark, that reminds me of the Second World War, and Japan, and the two ( 2 ) Atomic Bombs. Yes, I truly am sorry, you want war.

D.A. we can not change history, as one ( 1 ) voice, we can make no major difference, war is made in the hall's of commerce, not at the local beer hall. But, war and it's death, is an open discussion in the beer hall. Glory, is the pass word, to enter the local beer hall discussion.

Take Care,

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:16 - ID#7568)

Unfortunately it is most likely finance which is pushing the US towards the military option. Were it not for the financial interests of France and Russia there would be much more diplomatic leverage applied to Saddam.

In the long run I don't believe that financial war would result in fewer casualties than a lead based war. As has been demonstrated over the last seven years, the general populace of the country will suffer far greater than the ruling elite in economic deprivation.

In all that has transpired, let's not lose sight of the fact that this whole thing could end tomorrow if S.H. simply acceded to the terms of his surrender. All that has been asked of him is to allow complete verification that there is, and will remain, no capability for NBC weapons. You or I would find this pretty easy with which to comply. Billions of dollars in oil revenue, aid in redevelopment, all contingent upon the demilitarization of your country. The fact that SH and co can not figure this one out is testimony to the madness.

Old Soldier
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:17 - ID#185274)
Getting down to it
Tolerant1 23:21 You are exactly right. It is always the young ones who go forth in harms way. I did. My 23 year old offspring is a 2LT headed to V Corps that Clinton has emasculated. Do you think I like that. No. You know better. It is far better to go and come back on you shield than to number yourself with the weak who whine in retrospect. To paraphrase Haggis, Being tough is tough, hard to find, and rare too. Your comment about unfinished business, I already said that about finishing the bastards. Yes, we ole farts will sit and toast the young lions. So what is new in the scheme of things?

Vronsky 23:27 The supreme compliment and I accept it with all the humility and future duty that it carries. My absolute thanks.

DA 23:29 Man you are rare and deep. Yes!!! How in the hell can the USA be both the devil incarnate and the savior of the world in 200 years?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:24 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Thanks, John, for your support of
my important project and me personally...
I just got FDA approval for Givatron...
Will send the first pre-lubricated production sample
to Ziva's household, free of charge, for test run,
for her husband - I have reason to believe
that her husband's secretary is ONE of THESE
Iraqi women....

Used 7 Iraqi women to test Givantron, all of
them were very much satisfied...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:25 - ID#185274)
Old Soldier (Attack on the USA from an ally) ID#185274:
Dear Sir, up until now your posts have been accurate and based on facts. Now, unfortunately we see some shallow propaganda!!!

1. =====What country ever had even the faintest possibility of defeating and dominating the entire world but never even tried? USA =====
Historically, any country that has reached a level where they think that they can or should defeat or dominate the entire world would instantly go the way of the dodo. Such beliefs were always the sign of complete insanity. As it is for not trying, many people consider USA's recent "new order" to be just that. USA now kidnaps people in other countries in violation of all rules of civilized world, hunts and kills its own people in the name of "War on Drugs" and other such nonsense ( Waco, Ruby Ridge ) . It thinks that it is the God Supreme and has a right to create new countries out of its will, against local realities ( Bosnia ) , or declare a healthy, existing independent country as non-existent ( Taiwan ) when it suits it's "global interests."

2. ====What country defeated the Nazis, with a lot of help from our friends, and then brought peace and prosperity to the European continent? USA =====
USA has conspired with Britain to sell all of Eastern Europe to Stalin ( Yalta agreements, still classified ) . While Britain was against the wall, the only price Roosevelt got for it, was Stalin graciously agreeing to join UN and ignoring the broken promises of earlier opening of the second front. As a result, US did not have to bother with Nazis up until Stalin broke most of their power and enslaved the entire Eastern Europe in the process. Millions of people paid with their lives as a result of Yalta agreements.

Do not get me wrong!!! I do love the US and especially its Constitution. I consider the Constitution to be the greatest achievement of the Western Civilization!!!

The current US government has, however, thrown the Constitution out the window. One can admire one's country and still be able to see clear corruption and abuse of power as problems. If you do not, how are you different from Germany's "patriots" who supported Hitler without asking questions?!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:29 - ID#273227)
D.A. shorting silver?
snowbird 2/8 22:29 - When did D.A. call for shorting silver? D.A. when did you do this?

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:30 - ID#24135)
You took the words right outta mah mouth
For Earl
Great Post.. Great Post
for tolerant
Thanks bro

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:32 - ID#238422)
If you got such a tool, you just got to
offer it for the defense of the U.S.

By the way, how fast you can recharge your tool?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:37 - ID#210235)
Does one get an "Orifice tested by oris" rubber stamp with it?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:38 - ID#252150)
I respect & appreciate our opinions on trading & other matters.
However it is a well known fact,that this administration has stated that sanctions will never be lifted on Iraq as long as Saddam is in power. I don't recall the Iraqis having an election since he took power. So what it comes down to is a very cynical & inhumane campaign in which the Iraqi people are being subjected to extreme forms of privation for reasons other than U.S. security or even the security of the region.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:42 - ID#24135)
Wait a minute soldier
For Old Soldier.
Although I am a great admirer of Patton ( because he
was admirer of Jackson... Stonewall NOT Jesse ) .. I believe
you fail to recognize contribution to defeating Nazis made
by Russian PEOPLE and Military ( forget Stalin ) . Thier war was
deadly, fought in horrible conditions, and at a very personal
level. Their losses and the losses they inflicted on Nazis
were massive in comparison to those in the US theater of
Sure the US gave them massive aid, but fighting is fighting
after all, and the enemy was not easy .. not like Saddam ..
which is basically a turkey shoot.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:44 - ID#215379)
God's second commandment
Love your neighbor as yourself

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:44 - ID#252150)
Not our but your opinions.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:45 - ID#7568)

I am very, very far from wanting war. I've got a wife, a 21 month old son, two living parents, a brother, and bunch of great friends. I've got one of the best jobs in the world cause I can spend time with my family and I get paid handsomely to play a fascinating game. My concept of war is watching the ducks and the geese battle it out for the pieces of bread my boy and I toss into a nearby pond.

I am profoundly greatful to those who would risk their lives so that others can live more securely. I would consider increasing the risk to those persons as a last resort and never as a first. Sadly, in the horrific calculus of human conflict, it has been shown repeatedly that inaction in the face of obvious threat is a precursor for greater loss.

Bringing this discussion back to precious metals, not dealing with SH now or in the near future, is like writing way out of the money calls on gold. Most likely the position is not going to go against you, and even if it does you will have an opportunity to hedge. However, in certain circumstances your problem could be ruinous.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:46 - ID#7568)


Old Soldier
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:46 - ID#185274)
Focus on the big not the tiny details (yes, I know I'll catch hell for that)
Petronius 00:25

=====Historically, any country that has reached a level where they think that they can or should defeat or dominate the entire world would instantly go the way of the dodo. Such beliefs were always the sign of complete insanity. As it is for not trying, many people consider USA's recent "new order" to be just that. Etc.. ==== Whoa podner. They only went the way of the dodo after the USA and allies whipped them, not sooner. The rest is not something I have the need to comment on.

=====USA has conspired with Britain to sell all of Eastern Europe to Stalin ( Yalta agreements, still classified ) . While Britain was against the wall, the only price Roosevelt got for it, was Stalin graciously agreeing to join UN and ignoring the broken promises of earlier opening of the second front. Etc.==== Wow, the only acceptable standard to you is perfection. Good luck finding peace, happiness, a country, or anything worthwhile.

Do not ever confuse the current government or its policies with all past governments or their policies. I am not happy with the current, not happy with some past, but on the whole, it has been a pretty fine little country for 200+ years.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:49 - ID#284251)
Do you smell blood on the streets?
Old Soldier

No cause for offence.
The article was merely a repost from an American newspaper the "Orlando Sentinel" out of Florida.
Home of Disney World and written by an American, for the newspaper.

I posted it because it makes one think "what the hell" is going on.
I am concerned that people the world over,
Tend to throw the blame, when things go wrong.

That Clinton can blame others for wrongs,
When he is merely trying to cover his own mistakes is low.
I agree that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction should be removed.
But for Clinton to start a war to cover his own ass over it.

I am no lover of Iraq or Saddam.
I will be happier when his weapons are destroyed.
But I will be even happier when all weapons are destroyed.
I do not believe in intimidation just because one has a bigger stick.

I shake my head in amazement at our Government's position.
First it sold off it's gold for the US.
Last week it was concerned because of trade wars between US and OZ.
Now it's sending it's children to fight a war to save Clinton's penis.
It is showing itself to be weak and despisable.

Funny that you feel I was attacking the USA.
You make it sound that the entire article was denigrating the USA.
The USA was never mentioned.
I did not attempt to attack anyone.
I just posted an internet opinion.
To get people to think about what is going on.

Like the current manipulation of gold,
I think that there are global manipulations happening,
In regards to Clinton and a war.
Who, What, Where and Why.

I have no desire to create a conflict over this.
Many times I post, I do not draw into discussions.
I know that I'm a pacifist and prefer to be non-confrontational.
But I do enjoy stimulating discussion.

I don't want to share a bunker with anyone.
Because I despise war.
Far better to spend time enjoying life.
Than desecrating it.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:50 - ID#238422)
No, rubber stamp is not included.

But a little, very cute towel with
Iraqi flag picture and "Remember Oris" logo
is provided free of charge. Towel is washable...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:50 - ID#31868)
While we sit at our keyboards, a family grieves
U.S. sailors hold memorial for pilot killed in Gulf

Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 The Associated Press

MANAMA, Bahrain ( February 8, 1998 4:14 p.m. EST ) -- American sailors held a memorial service Sunday for a fighter pilot killed when his jet collided with another over the Persian Gulf and crashed in waters off Kuwait.

The service for Lt. Col. Henry G. Van Winkle was conducted aboard the USS George Washington, one of three U.S. aircraft carriers in the Gulf.

Van Winkle, 41, of Kirkwood, N.Y., was killed Friday. The cause of the crash remained under investigation, said Lt. Marc Boyd, spokesman for the Bahrain-based U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet.

The military refused to give details of the service.

The other pilot, Maj. Cary D. Venden, of Conroe, Texas, was listed in good condition aboard the George Washington. The extent of his injuries have not been released.

Both pilots were members of Strike Fighter Squadron 251, based at Beaufort, S.C., and had launched from the George Washington. At the time of the collision, the planes were headed toward southern Iraq to patrol a zone in which Iraqi aircraft are not permitted to fly.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:55 - ID#24135)
The Case Of the Kamikaze V.......
To all
It is reassuring to see so many men coming forth
in defense of the country and the free world to
repulse this deadly Iraqi v..... attack. I can sleep
easy. The world is safe once again.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:55 - ID#7568)

D.A. has not advocated short silver. NO, NO, NO. The closest I have come to this has been to say that I did not advocate taking new long positions a few days ago. We did some hedging against our long position a few days back by writing some calls. The implied vols were huge, and protecting some portion of our gains was mandatory given the size of our exposure.

I believe that the 'correction' has taken place. The peak offer in the cash market was 7.90, the lowest bid 6.90. This 1.00 correction is about a 40% retracement of the last move. There is nothing magical about this number other than it is a pretty good chuck. Any sharp moves down from this level will probably get us to lift our hedges.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:56 - ID#335190)
D.A. @ 00:45
Yes, my investment opportunities do in fact go against me. Also, as a matter of fact, my investment circumstances have been a problem, causing ruinous results. But, hell, investments do not go in a straight line UP. Not using my system. : ) : ) : )

Good health, be safe, and take care.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:57 - ID#31868)
meanwhile, back at the silver mines
I wanted to mention a little known company Clifton Mining. Of course I must give credit to the Goldbug for this little gem. You can read more about them at

They are small, yet agressive and they are sitting on enough silverware to set a large table indeed.

Take a peek, interesting little company.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 00:59 - ID#252127)

Stupididy; Iran or someone else blocks the Straight of Hormitz and then we're target practice. Something smells like a reason for a death strike on the ME. JMHO

Old Soldier
(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:01 - ID#185274)
Russian supreme contributon to whipping the Nazis
John Disney 00:42 I said, What country defeated the Nazis, with a lot of help from our friends, and then brought peace and prosperity to the European continent? USA. OK, if a lot of help from our friends wont get it, I will get specific with regard to the Russians. The Russians killed more Nazis in WWII than all the other allies combined. In doing so, they lost more friendlies than all the other allies combined. WWII on the Eastern Front was by some standards the worst war ever faced by mankind. Read The Last Battle by Cornelius Ryan and Scorched Earth by Von Mansteen for details.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:02 - ID#31868)
I'm feeling aldente!!!!!!!!!
Please look up at silver!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:06 - ID#7568)

Happy trails.

And to all a goodnight.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:07 - ID#31868)
bummer, there goes that aldente' feeling. Get, get, get somebody dammit!

Old Soldier
(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:09 - ID#185274)
Apology to Sharefin from the Old Soldier
Sharefin 00:49 I apologies. I was wrong. I misinterpreted your post. Not a defense because that would be tawdry but, let me just say, I respect you so much that I was shocked at what I thought was a mindless attack. I was the only one mindless in that case and again, I humbly apologize. Your response speaks volumes for the great man that you are.Sharefin 00:49 I apologies. I was wrong. I misinterpreted your post. Not a defense because that would be tawdry but, let me just say, I respect you so much that I was shocked at what I thought was a mindless attack. I was the only one mindless in that case and again, I humbly apologize. Your response speaks volumes for the great man that you are.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:10 - ID#335190)
Say good night 6pak @ Good night 6pak
Take Care.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:11 - ID#227238)
Jingle, jangle and jingo.
There seems to be a common conception that some powerful, silent and mystical force has smiled benignly upon the face of the US. That it has given us some 200 years of prosperity without the the disadvantage of having ruffians from abroad broaching our shores uninvited.

There is no way to properly measure such things but it has always seemed to me that the logical extension of Divine Providence has been mostly limited to the wonderful geography in which we find ourselves. Again, many would hold that our people are under the guidance of some unseen power and that power is responsible for the good life we have enjoyed. And no mistake it has been a good one.

By looking at other factors, I don't intend to demean the contribution of a diverse people. What resulted from millions of people willing to do things in a new and untraditional way was enormous.

At the same time, we delude ourselves considerably if we ignore another element of our geography. That is the rich natural resources with which we have been endowed. As a new century approaches, many of those resources dwindle. It will be interesting to see if Divine Providence will make up the short fall. Or will we find that, like others, we do not possess a pocket full of magic?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:11 - ID#238422)
I can understand your feelings, but
you may take into consideration that
it is not just a pinus story...

As a leader of the world ( for now, at least )
the U.S. simply can not allow Saddam not to obey...
In simply words, Saddam must show respect, and if
he does not want to do it, he must be reminded who is the
power over there. It's a basics of politics, just that
simple. When Boris Yeltsin talks, he also wants to see
respect - the same basics. It seems so funny to me
when somebody tries to be serious in assumption that
Russian missles will be used to protect Saddam.

Big politics in general is very simple and logical stuff.
Both the U.S. and Russia want to be respected, both
countries must react by the rules of a big politics.
But big guys never want to fight each other, and if
they forced to fight, it's no gonna because of Saddam...

What you see today is called
"Do you respect me, man?!" movie.

In this particular situation, this pinus story is

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:12 - ID#284251)
My dad's poetry - slowly getting on the web.
For peace of mind after a stressful day at Kitco.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:15 - ID#273227)
D.A. - I didn't think so. FYI - I sold out of my March position on Wednesday and Thursday. I left alot on the table in hindsight - getting out is much more of an art then getting in.

Tomorrow I fill out the paperwork to SOES trade. I've been training for weeks. With the silver profits I now have a heathly cushion to lean back on if I need it. I figure if the FED is going to rig this market, I might as well as play along. SOES trading is the only kind of paper that I won't lose any sleep over - you go home flat everyday!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:16 - ID#17155)
Remarks to/from Old Soldier
Yeltin must have just read my remarks to "Old Soldier:"

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:17 - ID#31868)
excellent, glad to see your Dad's poetry up and posted for all the world to see.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:18 - ID#252127)
Nissan shifting from palladium catalyists (sp)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:25 - ID#22956)
how is the winter handicap? Should be about a 9 by now, no? Good to see you are still around. Buy Gold Mon. a.m.~~~~~~~~~

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:39 - ID#284251)
Not his pinus but his wife.
I think it is secondary too.
I posted twice over the last week how,
Clinton can stay in office if he can draw fire from Saddam.
He probably has the wrath of Hillary presuring him.

"You just go and do what needs to be done to get me into the office for the next term, and I'll forgive your past indescretions! If you dont, me and the rest of the world are going to give you hell! Do you hear me, Bill! Do I have to shout! Do I have to read it out to you! Just get out there and get that job done! And then I'll think of forgiving you!"

(Mon Feb 09 1998 01:47 - ID#238422)
Hillary - oh, yes, she made him President, she
is much, much smarter than this really simple
guy Bill, and she is the driving force. I think
she should be really mad at him - "I made you President,
and you are screwing it all up " - family drama...

Still, do not disregard rules of politics..

But of course, in this case Mr. Clinton can kill
two rabbits with one shot, no doubt about it...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 02:05 - ID#284251)
The bubble grows?
If all three of them, could just keep a little peace. ( BC, HC & SH )
Take a step backwards and reappraise.
There would be less chance of starting something, they cannot stop.
You have to give a little, to get a little.

Beijing plans hi-tech challenge to US
Diplomatic sources in Beijing said yesterday that in a recent internal meeting, Mr Zhu cited the high-technology achievement of the US as a major reason for the "world dominance of the US economy".

"If the hi-tech content of a country's economy is up to an advanced level, the question of the bubble economy will not exist,"

(Mon Feb 09 1998 02:16 - ID#210235)
a last word, then goodnight
Sharefin, remember how during the Maoist revolution the literati were massacred? University professors and physicians were slaughtered enmasse, as they represented power of the previous regime.

My sister recently told me a funny story recently. While she was on the faculty of a major Ivy League U, she had a diplomatic task to show a group of visiting PRC physicians the latest in Intensive care facilities at the University hospital. You may know that after the physicians were killed, the nurses were just graduated to doctors. Thus the need for doctors was filled. Of course, there was no one to teach them was a mere detail, and not addressed.

These facilities housed the latest computers, walls of dials, screens, computerized all, to completely monitor and assist the patient. One of the "doctors" was entranced - by the squeegie mop in the corner. She had never seen one with a handle where you could get the water out without getting your hands wet. She was thrilled, kept saying how much they needed them in Beijing ( at the University facility ) . Everything else just went right over her head. It might as well not have been there.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 02:41 - ID#153102)
Quislings need not apply
Cousin John: I stand in awe of your gifts of good sense.

Cousin Earl: More food for thought. Isn't a franchise a privilege bestowed by government. Example: a utility corporation franchise to provide service. I think the franchise was created for the franchisees, those who line up for benefits from the greenback government, "that body of men protected by the military might". Representatives to Congress and to State Legislatures are, according to the Constitutions, to be chosen by Electors, good people of property. Check it out.

All Government Issue Types: the streets and highways of the several States are infested by swarms of armed men in uniform who under color of law use the force of arrest and the threat of putting me in a cage and/or of robbing me of property to intimidate me from exercising my right to travel without payment of tribute in the form of license and registration fees. If we have no right to travel, what do we need roads for anyway ? I say, "Millions for defence, not a penny for tribute."

Re: The Threat from Iraq: Seems closer to France than the USA, closer to Italy than the USA, closer even to South Africa than the USA. I neasured the Atlantic and Pacifac Oceans before arriving at this conclusion. My further conclusion: the words of Chesty Puller, USMC, are still valid, "The Marine Corps ( and I add, all armed forces of the US ) are the collection branch of the United States Incorporated."

An acquaintance of mine was stationed in Iran in the days of the Shah. He reported that every year when the land dried up enough for troop movement the Iranians or Iraqis would commence an operation and bang away at each other until either the weather or a shortage of shells caused a cessation. We cannot allow these people to have WMD because they will use them on each other and that will eliminate important markets for conventional weapons.

What became of the country of which George Washington was the father ? What was wrong the the foreign policy of neutrality, of peace and friendship and commerce with all nations ? Bad for the health of the National Corporate Socialist State ?

Cousin Oris: If the Gavitron can also dig foxholes, I think you have a winner. I suggest you give one to Vronsky and Old Soldier for a field trial.

Yours Under The Puppet Government of the Occupied Country of Virginia, Mozel.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 02:43 - ID#24135)
Great Comedy writing in company reports.
For Tolerant and the fellow with the initial like psq1??
In thinking over what you said, you give much too
much credit for financial wizardry. This is really
simple stuff .
Oh and I forgot something, to calculate costs per oz
of producing gold ignore all the stuff in the company
report ... except
1. their revenue, mill $
2. their profit ( or loss ) , mill$
3. Their gold production , mill oz
then subtract 2. from 1. and you have the company's
total cost. Then divide by 3 and you have their cost
per ounce of gold.
The remaining information in the report is to
convince you that the management is doing a really
good job, despite the fact that they have no idea
what they are about, and to hide the fact that they
are robbing the company blind.
I urge you to go through the year end results
of Battle Mountain, along with my comments. I laughed
till I cried. I will include this as am example in
my forthcoming book, "Having fun with company Reports".
I mean "exploring for gold in the Sierra Madre" ...
Have they no SHAME. Humphrey Bogart went over all that
ground. I watched him do it.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 02:59 - ID#393224)
Happy Waitangi Day.
Received Pop Delusions today. Muchos gracias.

Gold scratching it's chin on the 300 barrier.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:00 - ID#153111)
American Imperialism
In the last 60 years an amazing change in attitude has occurred in the American Psyche: a desire for empire. An Imperial attitude is one where a political organization somewhere feels it is its right to be the final arbitrators in any and all matters that comes to its attention. Empires are bounded only by the effective reach of its military power.

The US of A as recently as the late 1930 had a Secretary of State who responded to the British's request of reading out going mail to Europe by saying "gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail". Now some will accuse me of being dangerously innocent of the evil ways of Planet Earth, that the US must respond to threats to its vital interest when those threats arise, I say that's nonsense when we are talking about Middle Eastern oil, and that is what we are talking about here. If there is a clear and present danger to the US by SH weapons of mass destruction it is only because we got involved in a family argument that's been going on for centuries.

Ninety percent of planet earth asks only for the right to hack their fellow man to death with out interference from North America. They have insisted upon this right for thousands of years and will fight to the death defending this for thousands of years to come. To the victors goes the spoils of selling all of that oil to the worlds markets. The only thing we are doing by insisting upon being the worlds policeman is to make it clear that we to are players in this perverse game. Washington should make the Streets of America safe for tax payers before it starts a crusade in Bosnia or Iraq.

There was a time when giants roamed the United States. George Washington gave some good advise to the future generations of Americans, "beware of foreign entanglements". You know if the Middle East had never saw a single US ship or aircraft, "our oil supply" ( as if Middle East oil belonged to us ) would not be in jeopardy. I don't recall anyone anywhere ever threaten a boycott of oil or anything else to Costa Rica.

I'm not saying the US should disarm, I like having a big military as a means of keeping our powder dry. Being a rich nation without the force necessary to gain respect has been proven very dangerous in the past, the world is a bad place. It is just that I have the feeling that history will show that our politicians will be shown as not to have the wisdom of knowing when military force is in the national interest, when it would be better to just watch the slaughter live on CNN. America once saw foreign affairs as a spectator sport, it is no longer so. We have not made the world safer by being proactive internationally, I can't see where America is better off either. The reason the Saudi Arabian government doesn't want to use its bases for an assault on Iraq is because many if not most of its citizens are not thrilled about the King or his buddies in Washington. We have a Shaw of Iran situation brewing in Arabia and that is not in the US's interests.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:05 - ID#210114)
Spot Price Gridlock at Kitco
Am having trouble accessing the Kitco graphs for PMs. Is it Kitco or my computer??

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:11 - ID#153102)
MJPL: One little, but important amendment
Re: Your Post. Let the military minions of Washington, DC stay in DC where they belong. No need for them on the streets of America. We have our right to keep and bear arms and can keep the streets safe for ourselves without any help from DC. P.S. I think it is mentally more healthy to think of yourself as a citizen rather than as a taxpayer.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:20 - ID#270315)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:22 - ID#270315)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:24 - ID#153111)
Mozel 03:11 post
I agree completly. However to challenge Washington's world view by not only by questioning its Mideast policy but also asking it to see "taxpayers" as citizens ( let along humans with the God given right to be left alone with the fruits of our labor ) is really asking to much in one post.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:28 - ID#257148)
Aoteoroa,,land shrouded in gold.. and lots and lots of big beautiful oceans...

Nick@C My pleasure, cobber. Waitangi Day was Fri 6 Feb. where NZ celebrates/commisserates/ignores the signing of the Treaty of 1840 between Queen Victoria of England and A confederation of Maori chiefs that marked the ( virtual ) end of hostilities and the beginning of the other kind of theft of land, in the courts.

Not an uncomplicted matter, this.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:46 - ID#153102)
Of course. I just think it's important for everyone to be constantly reminded of the truth that TAXPAYERS HAVE NO RIGHTS. Read the law. Ask anyone who has been to tax court ( which is not an Article III court ) . Rights and tax paying have no connection with one another. Never did; never will.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:46 - ID#153111)
Oris 01:11 post
Bill Clinton is "leader of the world"? When did this happen? Did he get the majority of the votes? Like I said in the last 60 years there has been a change in the psyche of the American People.

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:48 - ID#24135)
BORN to nitpick
For MjPl
Er ... excuse plisss ... Was that George Bernard Shaw of
Iran .. ????
For Oris
New recipe .... Fruit salad Oris... outstanding ..

(Mon Feb 09 1998 03:57 - ID#153111)
John Disney
I'm sure it was George B Death to the Shaw!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 04:49 - ID#432148)
Your 03:00 is a true Libertarian view of what US foreign policy should be, and well said. We certainly do have trouble these days figuring out what is in the "national interest." If BC is the "world leader" the world is in one heep o trouble!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 05:29 - ID#393224)
Rhodium $7300/oz???
JACK--re: your Feb. 9th -- 01:18.
"Rhodium prices skyrocketed to $7300 per ounce in July 1990 as a result of supply shortage brought on by South African supply problems."

Folks-- I have just gone into the rhodium business ( platinum as a minor by-product ) .

Please send me all of your unwanted catalytic converters for recycling. Do the planet a favour and get rid of these unsightly automobile by-products. Just mail to Nick@C. You pay freight.

J.D.--the semtex is on it's way!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 05:50 - ID#224151)
April Gold
Up $3 to 303.00. Will it be manipulated down again when New York Opens?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 05:57 - ID#248180)
Wow! Some very stimulating debate in the last 10 hours. Thanks to all once again I have learned. I was, until 10 hours ago a peace loving pacifist. But now I am fired up and ready to join Old Soldier & Vronsky in the fox hole. With on condition if I'm going to war - let us do it right Old Soldier. If the USA is going to dominate then lets- kick-ass proper. When we go in to control the M/East and bomb Iraq, Iran & Isreal.
Get rid of all the problems, colonise the place and vote em in as new States to the Republic, Oh say can you see bye the dawns early light,lah,la, lah,de,de, de, de de dumb.
Heh, Oris Braht- was that Pinus ( latin for pine ) ( Ceysna ) or Penus ( prick, Willie ) ?

Donald @ 8,Feb 18:55: Heh Heh Great Thought send her to Another then he/she will reveal all Thoughts after relaxation therapy.
Vronsky @ the fox hole or what ever hole you're at. Ask the same question @22:13 of the Palastinians, or other dispossed persons of USA policy?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 06:36 - ID#289357)
This received overnite:


The Global Intelligence Update:

With Subscribers in Over 50 Countries


Global Intelligence Update

Red Alert

February 6, 1998

Strange Russian Threats Over U.S. Iraqi Policy

On February 7, Iraq's INA news service reported that Bahraini Television

was quoting Vladimir Yakovlev, commander of Russia's Strategic Missile

Troops ( which controls Russian nuclear weapons ) , as stating that the RSMT

are ready to repulse any foreign military offensive against Iraq. Not

trusting INA's report, we searched for confirmation of General Yakovlev's

remarks, not expecting to find any. To our surprise, however, we

discovered the following TASS report dated February 6, 1998, which we quote

in full:

"MOSCOW -- It will take minimum time for the Russian Strategic Missile

Troops to respond to an attack of a possible enemy, troops

commander-in-chief Vladimir Yakovlev said at a meeting of the State Duma on

Friday. Asked about the troops' readiness to repulse an aggression against

the background of a mounting tension in the Persian Gulf and the reports on

the U.S. possible use of tactical nuclear weapons against Iraq, Yakovlev

said "the Russian missile troops are permanently on the alert and are ready

to give an adequate response to an armed aggression of any enemy to order

of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief -- the President of Russia. ( sic ) "

We would discount the importance of this report as well, save that Boris

Yeltsin claimed last week that U.S. actions could well lead to a world war.

We also note that Yakovlev was not making an offhand remark after being

ambushed by reporters at an airport, but was making a formal report to the

Russian parliament. This comment has been ignored by the world press, much

as Yeltsin's prediction of world war was dismissed as merely an indication

of Yeltsin's growing incompetence. However, we are forced to wonder

whether we are dealing with mental incompetence or a clear Russian policy.

It is noteworthy to us that Yeltsin went on to say this weekend that, "I

realize it's not easy to break old habits... but I have to say that the

attempts of some countries to impose a unipolar model on the world, to

assume the role of leader, are unrealistic and even dangerous." The

remarks were made to an Italian newspaper. Yeltsin is scheduled to visit

Italy this week for meetings at the Vatican and with the Italian

government. It is important to note that Italy, still shocked by the

accidental collision of a U.S. Marine Corps EA-6 with a cable car, killing

20, has announced that it would not permit its territory to be used as a

base for launching attacks on Iraq.

As hard as this is for us to believe, we cannot escape the fact that in

addition to mounting an increasingly effective diplomatic effort to block a

U.S. strike against Iraq, the Russian government appears to be engaged in

some old fashioned saber-rattling. Assume for the moment that Yeltsin is

not merely a silly old man but rather the fully functional President of

Russia. This would mean that the President of Russia threatened the United

States with world war if it attacked Iraq and that the commanding general

of its strategic nuclear strike force has declared himself ready and able

to execute a nuclear strike whenever and wherever Yeltsin orders. Senility

aside, that is what happened last week.

Foreign Minister Primakov, busily negotiating with the Iraqis, tried to

soften Yeltsin's blasts by stating that U.S.-Russian relations have not

deteriorated over the Iraqi crisis. However, even Primakov closed his

comments by saying that, "The development of relations can be based only on

such an equality... we will not allow anyone to speak to us in a command

tone." So, while attempting to defuse the more extreme implications of

Yeltsin and Yakovlev's remarks, Primakov not only was negotiating with

Saddam more as an ally than as an adversary, but was also joining Yeltsin

in warning the U.S. to back off on Iraq, and to stop ordering Russia


This may or may not be related to everything reported above, but the United

States itself took a step to cool the crisis. As U.S. Secretary of Defense

William Cohen left for the Persian Gulf, he announced that the USS Nimitz

would be withdrawn from the Gulf on Sunday, following the arrival of the

USS Independence from Japan. There are good reasons for rotating the

Nimitz. Extended tours play havoc with personnel rotations as well as with

maintenance schedules. At the same time, in a genuine crisis, the Navy can

and has permitted extended deployments. The decision to rotate the Nimitz

out of the region leaves only two carrier battle groups with the Fifth

Fleet, cutting available naval strike aircraft from 108 to 72. Given the

fact that neither Turkey nor Saudi Arabia has yet given the United States

permission to use facilities in those countries for launching air attacks

on Iraq, this is a rather startling decision on the part of the Defense


There are several possible explanations here. First, the United States may

not be planning imminent military action. Certainly no action is likely

until the Turkish and Saudi positions are clarified. But the U.S. must be

expecting it to take several weeks to extract this permission, if it is to

be forthcoming at all, since it will take at least that long to get another

carrier battle group into position. The idea of delay jibes with reports

that the Japanese government is asking the United States not to launch an

attack while the Winter Olympics are under way. A UN resolution asking

that the Olympic period be considered a truce period for all conflicts is

in place. That would mean no attack prior to February 23, which gives

enough time to move another carrier from the Pacific into the Fifth Fleet.

Another explanation is that the United States does not expect the crisis to

escalate to a major air campaign because it is encountering extraordinary

resistance to its plans. Within the region, the inability to access U.S.

facilities in either Turkey or Saudi Arabia makes an extended air campaign

difficult to carry out for both technical and political reasons. Cohen

will be working that problem this week. But even if the regional problem

is solved, the most important fact appears to be that Yeltsin has decided

to challenge American power directly on all fronts including, astoundingly,

engaging in nuclear brinksmanship reminiscent of the worst days of the Cold

War. We assume that the U.S. government is taking these statements more

seriously than the mass media and may be trying to cancel or delay military


Certainly, reaching an accommodation with Russia is becoming indispensable.

It is not clear that such an accommodation is possible. But it is clear

that the clock is now beginning to move backward more rapidly than

previously expected. The Russians are nowhere near as powerful as they

were ten years ago, but they are still a major power. If they ally with

China, the New World Order will be as dead as the old Cold War once was.

Correction: In a previous GIU, we wrote about F-111s being based in

Incerlik. A reader has kindly corrected us: the U.S. Air Force no longer

flies F-111s. However, land based aircraft such as F-15s and F-117s remain

indispensable for carrying extremely heavy burrowing bombs, and therefore

we stand by the basis of our report. Our apologies for this error.


To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates

or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at>, or send your name,

organization, position, mailing address, phone

number, and e-mail address to>


STRATFOR Systems, Inc.

3301 Northland Drive, Suite 500

Austin, TX 78731-4939

Phone: 512-454-3626

Fax: 512-454-1614



(Mon Feb 09 1998 06:38 - ID#248180)
@ Bart - Gold Sale Leads
Bart, thank you for the site. I just read the classified section on Kitco and much to my surprise, there is a bloke advertising that he wants to buy gold. Fancy that gold wanted, wanted gold.
Feb.4,98 @ 14:15 a Mr. Clayton L. Parker, The MEGA, wants 50 metric tonnes. Says he has $200 million over 12 months. No need to thank me just sent me my commission. 50M/T thats a healthy increase in demand. Go PM's and Mining Stocks.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 06:48 - ID#300202)
@ John D
John-Just reviewed post u made ref. to-6 paks Rev Canada article.
Any agency that attempts to obtain money owed is certainly always met
with disdain. That article simply states that Rev Canada is becoming a
private agency, giving less of a Big Brother appearance. As an agency,
they are overworked & underpaid. My personal experiences with individuals
within that arm of Government wud dictate to me as being understanding
& always playing by Marquis of Q. rules. For lack of a better comparison
plse refer to the IRS who are Badge carrying, Gun carrying Federal Policemen. In a sense, we can also compare our so called Border Guards-
Canada Customs & Immigration & Passport people who simply check for illegals/smuggled goods ( Policemen-NOT ) versus U.S. Customs/USINS. With all respect John-you have been intepreting what u read in a wrong manner.
I am not submitting that all is perfect here-but-it is not as u perceive

(Mon Feb 09 1998 06:56 - ID#248180)
@ Silverbaron
Thanks for the post, but I think that ZIVA, or Visa or VAVA or Zizi or Zaza ( whatever ) posted it earlier.

It will be interesting to see the outcome and the stance that Turkey will take. It appears that Turkey is responding as though it is between a rock and a hard place. Personally I hope Turkey says NO.

Ziva Schalom - no harm intended - I appreciate your views and vigour,you viper of vitality, vahroom vahroom. I hope that when O/Soldier, Vronsky & me Blow Isreal ( from the fox-hole or some hole ) along with Saddam that you will not be floating around in the Dead Sea or Sunning on the shores of Teliviv.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:01 - ID#286199)
Silver News
Corporations, Consumers Brace For Effects of Rising Silver Prices


CHICAGO -- Corporations, consumers and some
retailers are bracing for the impact of soaring silver

Prices of the precious metal began creeping up in July as stockpiles for silver dwindled. For years, investors had noted that demand for the commodity was rising faster than new mine production. Last week, prices shot up a hefty 15% following the announcement that investor Warren Buffett, through his Berkshire Hathaway Inc. investment firm, bought nearly 130 million ounces of silver, about 20% of annual mine production. In trading on the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange Friday, the price of the active March silver contract settled at $7.06 an
ounce, off 22 cents from Thursday but still near the highest closing price in 9 1/2 years.

The spike in silver prices isn't likely to have much impact on the overall U.S. economy. That's because prices of many other commodities -- from gold to oil to copper -- have been steadily falling, offsetting any inflation risk that higher silver prices might stir up.

"I don't think we can make broad generalizations" about rising prices because of the recent runup in silver, says Christine A. Callies, chief investment strategist of Credit Suisse First Boston.

Some Manufacturers to Be Hurt
But for companies that use large quantities of silver to produce film, flatware, jewelry and numerous industrial products, the price rises may soon be felt. For consumers, the picture will be mixed, with some retailers expecting to raise prices and others promising to make manufacturers absorb the price rise.

"More likely than not, the retailers will keep pricing the same, and the burden falls on the manufacturer," says Gilbert Suzawa, an economist at the University of Rhode Island who specializes in jewelry.

Rising silver prices are coming at a time when many companies already are bracing for the impact of higher labor costs due to the tight employment
market and increasing competition from Asia, where a currency crisis is expected to make it more difficult for U.S. companies to sell their products abroad while making Asian-made products cheaper in the U.S.
Eastman Kodak Co., which competes head-to-head with Japan's Fuji Photo Film Co., is in no position to raise prices even though silver is a crucial component used to produce film.

Last week, two analysts who follow Kodak, which is based in Rochester, N.Y., reduced their estimates for the company's 1998 earnings. Citing higher silver prices, the analysts dropped the consensus estimate
for the company to $4.10 a share from $4.13, according to First Call.

Locking In Prices

But to play down concerns about the effect of rising silver prices on its bottom line, Kodak said Friday that it had changed its purchasing strategy of the commodity during the second half of 1997 because of the price increase. Instead of continuing with normal supplier arrangements, Kodak bought 50% of its silver for use this year at a locked-in price. The
company wanted to bring some "predictability and stability" to the volatile raw-material cost, a spokesman said.

The last time silver prices shot higher was in the late 1970s, when inflation rose and brothers William and Nelson Hunt of Texas purchased more than 50% of a year's worth of silver production. Silver prices rose to
$50 an ounce, touching off huge price rises in film and causing consumers all over the world to sell their silverware and jewelry.

"We lived through that one, we'll live through this one," says Thomas J. Dufficy, executive director of the Photographic and Imaging Manufacturers
Association, a trade group based in Harrison, N.Y. Since the last price spike, photography concerns such as Kodak and Polaroid Corp. have reduced the amount of silver needed for each picture and have added to recycling programs, which allows the firms to scale back purchases.

Impact on Jewelry Consumers

As for jewelry prices, the impact will be felt by consumers almost immediately. While giant Zale Corp. says it has no plans to raise silver-jewelry prices because that metal makes up a small percentage of the company's business, others have already passed the increase along.

Silver Towne Coins, a Winchester, Ind., shop that sells silver-bullion coins, jewelry and flatware, raised prices last week on its sterling-silver jewelry by about 25%, says Leon E. Hendrickson, the store's owner.

The store also raised its coin prices, inducing many coin owners to sell and take profits, Mr. Hendrickson added. Other coin dealers noticed the trend last week, saying that the owners looking to get rid of
their coins pounced on the spike as an opportunity to bail. Those looking to get in, on the other hand, are proving more cautious, waiting to see if the rally can stick.

Also feeling the pinch are metals refiners and fabricators that borrow silver. Lease rates to borrow silver for a month ballooned to above 50% of the going market rate for silver, reflecting the tight supply of the metal right now. Investors and funds, notably Mr. Buffett, are holding a lot of the silver that jewelers had planned on using. Now, they'll have to shell out more to do their business, industry officials say.

"The big problems are lease rates and tightness," says Walter Frankland, executive vice president of the Silver Users Association in Washington. "The silver-using industry is looking for how to combat this."

So far, the answer has been delaying orders, Mr. Frankland says. "Orders have ceased temporarily. When the companies call in and find out rates are 80% [of the going market rate], they can't handle it." If silver prices fall back, business flows will return to normal, says Mr. Frankland. But if prices stay above $7 for a few months, metal fabricators will quickly pass the cost along to retailers and consumers.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:18 - ID#183109)
media BS

"About 22 billion ounces of silver has been taken from the earth since 4000 B.C., and most of it is still around in dresser drawers"

A direct cut and paste....I kid you not! And I thought the Klinton affair coverage was bad!

Ya, I must personally have a least half a billion ounces in my underwear drawer.....

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:26 - ID#24135)
Black ministers write Green Papers to make shareholders turn white
to all
The same reporter that aired the gold bar kitty
has now written an article in todays Business Day
to the effect that the energy Minister has tabled a green
paper on mineral rights that has upset the Chamber of mines
and the mining industry.
The paper is said to propose that all mineral rights
be vested in the State, and that a tax on private
mineral rights be "investigated". "Analysts" - this
paricular reporters favorite source - said that was
tantamount to nationalization.
IMHO, This is another dopey flier by an underling in the
anc administration trying to look like he is working
hard with elections coming up soon. The CEO of
amplats said that there were unable to understand
what the paper meant but that he was sure an amicable
relationship could be worked out.
This however is another reason that RSA companies
tend to understate their reserves. They want to avoid
rubbing the governments nose in to 200 years of
Platinum supplies, for example.
This type of paper has been floated before. It
has always gone away in the past.

JOE Smith
(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:44 - ID#24869)
Silverbaron,Vronsky and Haggis---some very early notes on Munni Munni

many people having come only recently to munni munni are very confused as to the early history of this silver discovery.

By the way paper talk has ECM coming bach on ( after suspension and on release of 13 drill hole results ) .

Grey market was bidding $1.50 ECM ( broker talk ) up from close of 0.95 c,other sil;ver junoirs all advanced.

Also rumored is that several brokers in WA are short ECM and LEG---all means a very interesting opening possibly wed morning.

Any how hereis old report---verbatum




Explortion to date has delineated six zones of minerliation within the Munni Munni complex, of which three contain silver. These are:

1. Upper Munni Munni Platinum Horizon
This unit has the potential to host up to 5 million tonnes of material averaging 2.9 g/t platinoids and gold and adjoins the similar deposit of Hunter Resources NL.

2. Lower Munni Munni Platinum Horizon
Occurring about 10 metrs from the upper horizon this unit is thicker ( 5-10 metres ) but lower grade at 1 g/t platinoids and gold.

3. Central Palladium Zone
This zone which occurs about 1 kilometre from the upper zone is about 50 metres wide and contains anomalous palladium. Results range up to 1 g/t.

4. Judy's Reef ( j Reef )
This zone is 1-2 metres thick, occurring about ( 1.5 kilometre from the palladium zone and about 30 metres from the base. It contains anomalous silver, gold, platinum, rhodium,cobalt, nichel and copper with a gold equivlent of 5-12 g/t. The target potential is believed to be similar to that of the upper Munni Munni reef.
5. Natalie's Hill & Elizabeth Hill
Disseminated Nichel-Copper Zone
The disseminated nickel-copper zone occurs between the Judy reef and the underlying granites .

This zone is about 20-30 metres thick and varies from massive sulphiodes at the base to disseminated sulphides at its top. Also within this zone are thin 1cm - 50cm wide conformable pegmatoidal zones nd cress cutting calcite veins both of which contain silver.

Silver also occurs in the ultramafic Munni Munni complex as argentopentlandite and argentochalcopyrite.

6. Elizabeth Hill Silver
The Elizabeth Hill Silver Prospect is located at the northern margin of the Munni Munni Complex. The silver mineralisation occurs in a n open-ended zone within the basal pyroxenite phase of the instrusion immediately above the contact with the underlying granitoids. Inthis ares this contact is strongly disturbed by north-trending faults and shears and by associated shear-link structures. The silver mineralisation is open along strike to the north and south as well as at depth.

The mineralisation tested to date occurs within a northerly trending Zone on the eastern margin of the Munni Munni Fault. Mineralisation occurs in a zone about 100 metres long in a plan view and from 4 to 15 metres wide and plunging at about 45oC to the south. The controlling Struture appears to be a shear-link that connects th Munni Munni Fault with a parallel fault lying some 50 - 100 meters to the east.

The future exploration strategy will be determined by the Joint Venture partners following collection of all geological information to date.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:51 - ID#284251)
Swing chart updated
Looks very bullish for equities.

Joe Smith
How can you short ECM or LEG?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:52 - ID#248180)
Silent Night - Old Soldier With Sincere Respect.
It is about 11:00PM as I look out across the moon kissed beautiful waters of the Great Southern Ocean. Ah what a night sight- Stunning.
Old Soldier - Sir, with humble gratitude I salute you and say no harm intended and know this Sir, that your sacrifices are appreciated and that of so many others. As a pacifist person we will never see eye to eye and we will never agree on the way and means of achieving peace. I sleep well knowing that you are there and that your personal cause is just. My nightmares are your leaders and the puppet masters. May God bless us all and may the wisdom of peace prevail and not might. Good night.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 07:52 - ID#238422)
Did I really say that?

I think I was talking about politics.

Do you understand what the politics is?

Or you don't?

Don't bullsh*t me.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:03 - ID#330175)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:04 - ID#330175)
Earl(00:13)-----------Great post!

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:05 - ID#24135)
Canada is great - could be better
For Caper -
Relax . Im only half serious. I know Canada is a nice place.
BUT my argument is that if the political unit is reduced in
size, your tax cost will be reduced and your life enhanced.
Economies of scale do not apply in politics.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:10 - ID#339274)
FWIW cycle low ,today or tomorrow.
high point March 25-27

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:14 - ID#348169)
War Clouds
Last night's 'Great Debate' left little doubt in my mind, ( if I have one left after wading through that morass of poly-cystic poop ) , as to the efficiency of the governmental misinformation machine and its ease in pulling the wool over the eyes of most of its victims, even some of the ( otherwise ) relatively intelligent sheep under its sway.
Today's fare:
For the thinkers - " The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." ---Bertrand Russel
For the people - "History repeats itself. That's one of the things wrong with history." ---Clarence Darrow
For the Hawks - "If you don't have time to do it right you must have time to do it over." ---Anonymous
For ALL - "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:15 - ID#333131)
Details of Indonesian foreign debt

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:24 - ID#24135)
Who Cares?
To All
Our beloved leader big nellie mandela has said that
the USA should not interfere in matters of regional
conflict, and should stop regarding itself as the world's
Now how about that. Up until now, I was opposed to
US intervention in Iraq myself. However, I now feel
nuclear devices should be used freely on Saddam, and
a small one saved for a test blast over transkei just
to shut this know it all jerk up.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:28 - ID#254269)
Good morning all.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:30 - ID#348169)
Speed's WSJ Article@ 7:01
Speed - It seems that any monkee can write an article for the Wall Street Journal without giving a second thought to checking the veracity of the facts they print. viz - "The last time silver prices shot higher was in the late 1970s, when inflation rose and brothers William and Nelson Hunt of Texas purchased more than 50% of a year's worth of silver production." The LAST time Silver prices rose? Where do these guys live - Timbuctoo?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:30 - ID#330175)
Mooney............and Iraq
Should the U.S.of A Nuke em?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:33 - ID#330175)
'Big Time' crime hits Nova Scotia

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:38 - ID#348169)
Ted - I defer to the our generation's Frank Sinatra ie. Rod Stewart when he sang '...One neutron bomb may just spoil your whole day!'.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:40 - ID#286199)
Glad to see you figured out how to get back here. The Journal analysts are looking at 12-13 years below $50 silver prices no? ; )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:42 - ID#375108)
Battle for Three-Zero-Zero
Above the line, below the line, now above again... Important in determining short-term trend? Does anyone else think Paul Kangas of NBR is a closet gold bug?? Often asks his guest market monitors about gold... ( and not in a disparaging way ) . Contrast with Louzy Rukeyser's snarky comments, for e.g. Hi-Ho, Hi-Ho, ...etc. Hi Ted...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:43 - ID#286199)
and watch those cracks about monkeys.. you'll reignite the creation/evolution debate of last weekend. I'm away to work. BBML

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:45 - ID#330175)
Mornin Novice
Loonie lookin sickly again this morn and my trigger-finger is gettin itchy!...Thought Looonie was supposed ta track gold?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:47 - ID#238295)
Gold and silver moving in opposite directions this morning!

If Clinton is stupid enough to attack Iraq, it will be another sad day for humankind. But it will be very good for gold investors despite a probable initial dip.

One reason for Clinton's belligerence on this issue his is his total subservience to the Israel lobby. This lobby -- long the most powerful in Washington -- has exerted great influence on every Administration since Eisenhower. But Clinton is the first President totally owned by this lobby. Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of the Treasury all Israel firsters. I point this out not as an anti semite, but as a Jew who puts TRUTH FIRST.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:55 - ID#258427)
Pretty impressive performance
in the face of the strong dollar this morning ...wonder if IRAQ has anything to do with golds performance?? Go gold and er...go silver.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:56 - ID#375108)
Hi Ted: Also surprised by the Canuck rupiah this mornin. After turn-around last week, it has a bit of lead up ... this mornin ( well, down 10 basis points ) . Hope someone will tell us both where its goin'. Spot gold now over $301, just before 0900. Gotta earn my pay...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:58 - ID#300202)
@John D
Correct John-Empire bldg. to the extreme is very much alive & well in
this Country. Trudeau was it's initiator & when he was in power Government grunts were getting 13% annual raises.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 08:59 - ID#254269)
WSJ print edition articles;

1. For Asian markets, the second act starts. Page A15
2. Seizure of 2 more Thai Banks points to large losses.
3. Indonesia faces food crisis as price jump.
4. In korea, new pain emerges on domestic debt.
5. DeBeers returns to Congo in hopes of winning exclusive diamond deal.

All stories on page A14 and A15.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:03 - ID#330175)
Glad we agree on trudeau

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:04 - ID#254269)
@ The Canadians on this site;
interesting piece on 60 minutes last night about the "language police " in
Montreal and the attempt to convert all street signs, etc to French.

Mike Stewart
(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:31 - ID#270253)
Gold Share Technical Update
I don't know if anyone cares about this stuff, but I don't mind sharing my ideas with you. I run a small investment partnership in Canada that specializes in turnaround situations, undervalued Dow stocks ( none right now ) and precious metals shares.

My Toronto gold mining McClellan summation index continues to rise in a steady manner. This is very promising. I want to see it exceed +2000 over the next two months. It is currently around +600. A failure to hit +2000 would demonstrate a lack of strength in the move, and a late year retest of the lows would be likely. So good.

I think that a real bottom in precious metals shares cannot take place without a collapse ( -60% to -75% ) in South African issues. We have seen that. Check out DRFNY then VAALY at

then select monthly charts. It has to be monthly charts to see it.

Here is another clue to determining bottoms. The South African golds usually bottom with a major low in Debeers. Without a collapse ( -50% or so ) in Debeer, the gold bear has more to go. We have seen the collapse in DBRSY from Oct 97 to Jan 98. Check this out on the monthly charts as well.

Toronto mining new lows have dried up over the last ten days. This is a very good sign.

Thats all for now.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:40 - ID#330175)
With the 'quebec CRAP' back in the news I'm off to wire 50% of my R.E. Money
out of this country!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:50 - ID#411149)
S. Kaplan
To those having trouble with Kaplan's site.
I just got in, problem must be fixed.

According to my star charts this should be a good
week for gold. And for those that don't like the start
I can tell you that the starts have beaten the heck out of the
"charts" I USED to subscribe to. My broker told me that there
was a chartist at the bottom of the ocean
with every ship!

Tally Ho

PS- Mike Sheller and others that might have looked up this weekend.
The MOON surrounded by six stars in a tent stake
configuration was just BEAUTIFUl! Must have ment somethin.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:50 - ID#238295)
technical analysis
Mike Stewart: Thanks for your very informative technical analyis of the gold share action! Hope you will update regularly.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:51 - ID#287207)
Vronsky: Very interesting analysis of the relationship between the gold stores and the fate of a currency. I don't know much about the topic but I do know that there are other things at work that influence the relationship. Specially the C$ is kept low against the U$ to increase sales to the US and elsewhere and also to promote Canadian products within the country. This policy is given credit for bringing the economy back to life after the last recession and the damage inflicted by NAFTA. The recent "crash" of 8 % or so was the result of the B of Canada deciding not to ease up even when the Asian event started to do their work for them. I think a more convincing argument would be to estimate the relative values of the 2 currencies with rates at the same level. I have no idea how to do that but would like to see the results.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 09:59 - ID#284251)
Avid Chatter - amazing urls
WHAT THE HECK is all this Saddam stuff about? What the heck is the purpose of it? What has changed from one year ago? What is the story behind the story? I turly fear that Clinton is trying to get us into a situation where he can declare a State of Emergency and run the country under FEMA giving him absolute power of a dictator, making impeachment impossible, and allowing him to stay in office well beyond his second term.

the real question here does not seem to be whether klington can finish his current internment term in office but rather .....Can Hillary garner enough empathy from the American public to replace the pres in the next election?

Ladies and gents I give you by special proclamation Presidents for life Billy and Billary Klington....yikes!!! ....Idi A min da da is gonna be really pissed they stole his title...thank god he's dead:}

Hold on. He declares a state of emergency allowing him to stay in office much longer than his term.....when we finally threaten to revolt, Hillary takes office and stays in two years. This gives Chelsea enough time to become of age so she can be prez. ....28 years of Clinton Banana Republic ( I am not joking really; I expect this State of Emergency under the insidious Fema las )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:01 - ID#33180)
Cyclist: Low in which market?
Cycle low in XAU? Dow? Metals?

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:07 - ID#231101)
@Novice re: closet goldbugs


I agree with your observation that Kangas often pays attention to gold. As far back as Spring 1997, the very beginning of the collapse of gold prices, Kangas interviewed Frank Cochrane, the head of a big Minnesota hedge fund called Investment Timing Consultants. Cochrane predicted that the market was getting too big and needed geometrical increases in cash to sustain prices much beyond 7500 Dow. He offered an analogy comparing an inflated Dow to a gas-guzzling automobile that required much more fuel to propel it than an economy car. Since that interview, Kangas has remained interested in gold. Apparently, by the way, Cochrane still supports gold purchases.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:08 - ID#339274)
Gold made a minor cycle low for Feb 8,SPx makes a cycle
high this week to trend down till April.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:11 - ID#284251)
Dow going down
Something has just spooked the dow.
If it carries through with a solid down move it will be interesting to see how gold reacts and how strongly.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:12 - ID#426220)

Considering the traditional investments of these financial behemoths, we may quite imagine them sitting all day long watching over THEIR INVESTMENTS on this Intra-Day chart page - YOU NEED TO DELETE THE LETTERS "en" in the word "golden" of the URL:

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:13 - ID#151412)
Wall Street Journal Article
The WSJ also got the names of the Hunt brothers wrong... It was Bunker and Herbert Hunt. William was one of Bunker's sons whose name Bunker used to get around position limits

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:26 - ID#284251)
Turning around.
Old Gold
I watch the new highs/new lows on the Aussie gold stocks.
And they are finally basing too.
After sitting around 50-70 new lows daily for the last few months.
With almost no new highs,
They are now at a turning point.
Today new highs/ new lows was basically even.
Half a dozen either way.
Soon the tide will turn.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:29 - ID#293211)
Nothing happens by accident, The Whole World is a Stage
Current events are happening by design as outlined by operation plan MAJESTYTWELEVE FOR THE FORMATION OF THE SOCIALIST TOTALITARIAN ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT UNDER THE UNITED NATIONS.Within this plan is the requirement to establish ultimate power in the body of 12 "WISE MEN" with a "benevolent dictator" who is perceived by the public as a "Messiah" and the head of government.A primary part of this plan requires presenting a ALIEN threat as the reason for the necessity for world government. The plan is real ... the threat is imaginary ...Hollywood ( the type of wood a witches wand is made of ) has been conditioning the masses wonderfully to accept the LIE. We have been instructed from the lord to expect a strong delusion in the last days. Applying Hilter's concept of the "big lie" the artificial extraterrestrial threat exists.uFOOLogy movements, continue its mind control operation, the Apollo program to the moon never did occur, it was a hoax on a grand scale,a part of the mind control conditioning process

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:30 - ID#375108)
Voyeur Professor
Thanks for your response to my observation about Paul Kangas: It is refreshing to see someone on a financial show who appears not to have any axes to grind with respect to gold. Perhaps he's not a goldbug in the Kitco sense but he's honest and tries to be objective about the stuff. I like the program. His guest market monitor last Friday was positive about gold, and of course Jim Dines was a guest on NBR a couple of weeks or so ago.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:35 - ID#287207)
looks like it is time to go elsewhere for the day

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:44 - ID#185448)
Crystallex ( KRY; AMEX ) up 25% today- Does anybody know why? Did they finally win the Las Critinas lawsuit??

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:49 - ID#231101)
Please don't shoot the messinger.

Kitcoites might be interested in the bearish gold prediction from "Briefing.Com", an internet investment service.

Comment: Bolstered by light bargain hunting, the financial crisis in Asia, favorable seasonals, the Clinton scandal, a silver rally and heightened tensions in the Middle East, spot gold has rebounded smartly off its late '97 low. Precious metals stocks have followed suit, led by the large-cap components such as Newmont Mining, Barrick and Homestake. Can gold and gold stocks keep it up? Given the steep declines experienced late last year, additional corrective gains are likely over the short-term. But we seriously doubt that the metals sector can sustain an uptrend since there has been little chage to the l/t bearish fundamental picture. As we noted in our last update, the ingredients ( excess supply, discounted valuations and the competitive advantages of risk-free short-term paper yielding 3%-4% ) remain in place for additional Central Bank selling. Changes in the marketplace over the past ten to twenty years bode poorly as well. Gold is now more a true commodity and less a hedge on inflation/political instability. With the introduction of new instruments such as inflation-indexed bonds and oil futures, investors fearful of inflation have additional, and more direct, investment alternatives to hedge their portfolios. Another reason why gold will have a difficult time sustaining an advance is that the supply/demand equation remains bearish. Though jewelry demand remains relatively brisk, particularly from places like China and India, the investment demand for gold is virtually non-existent. Finally, gold simply doesn't measure up as a investment option when stocks continue to drive to new highs and bonds return nearly 6.0% risk-free. Though companies that are actively hedged against a drop in gold prices will be somewhat insulated from the effects of the recent price drop ( Barrick in particular ) , lousy earnings momentum, and a negative backdrop for gold prices, suggest that these stocks will continue to underperform the market over the long-term. Nevertheless, to reflect the oversold tone and the group's improved relative strength, we are raising our short-term rating to 4. Stocks: Barrick Gold, Battle Mountain Gold, Coeur d'Alene Mines, Echo Bay Mines, Hecla Mining Co., Homestake Mining, Newmont Mining, Pegasus Gold, Placer Dome.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:55 - ID#340459)
(OLD GOLD, you are absolutely right vide #238295 at 08:47

(Mon Feb 09 1998 10:55 - ID#300202)
@ Marshall
U & Ted have the same beliefs. He believes our illustrious leader is
an alien. Mornin Ted. Aliens would certainly be a welcome contribution
to our messed up world.

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:01 - ID#231101)
Professorial stupidity!

er, make that "Please don't shoot the messenger."

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:04 - ID#348127)

I have heardd the same plan, but I have to question how this secret slipped out. Any answer

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:08 - ID#427357)
FIVE NEW ANALYTICAL REPORTS AT golden-eagle (sans the en)

World-acclaimed analysts in their particular areas of expertise:



General Market View For February 1998 - Wayne Crimi

Some Thoughts on Inflation - Dr. Paul Hein

Peter Dag Portfolio Strategy - Dr. George Dagnino

See golden-eagle Hot-News Box at URL ( just delete the en in golden of the URL ) :

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:12 - ID#348286)
@USAGOLD.COM: "Today a Hong Kong analyst confirmed in a Reuters report that Soros was in the market"
MARKET UPDATE ( 02/9/98 ) AM-----Gold hung on tenaciously to the $300 mark laying the groundwork for further moves to the upside, according to traders in Hong Kong, London and New York. Last week we reported rumors that Warren Buffett and George Soros were acquiring both gold and silver. Today a Hong Kong analyst confirmed in a Reuters report that Soros was in the market. Down the road, we think it will surface that Buffett and Soros are acquiring gold as well." "If they ( Soros and Buffett ) are looking for a better return on their investment -- and they probably are -- there is scope for prices to go higher." Gold also did well in Tokyo overnight with much short covering on fears that the situation in the Mideast could escalate. The Saudi Arabian position that the U.S. could not use Saudi bases to launch strikes against Iraz will no doubt encourage Hussein's aggressive behaviour. There has been some selling in the $302-306 range. We will see if we can get through it this week. The big drawdown of COMEX gold stocks will be seen as a plus as the day unfolds. If we break 400,000 ounces it could cause a run on gold. The Portugese finance minister publicly commented that now would not be a good time to mobilize gold reserves. Fourteen gold mines in South Africa are threatened with closure, according to another Reuters report this morning. The closures would affect 114,000 miners. The current plight of the mines in So. Africa is revving up the left in that country. Some are calling for ending dual state/private ownership of the mines and vesting all rights with the state. Mandella, as you may recall, was an ardent communist is his younger days and such talk smacks of nationalization -- an event which would likely send the price of gold soaring since South Africa is still by far the largest producer of gold on the planet. We will be monitoring the South African situation carefully now in light of this latest revelation. A final determination is expected by September. The dollar is up this morning and stocks down slightly. Have to say that gold looks likes its going on its own impetus these past few sessions -- a very good sign. We will update if anything interesting occurs, but it looks at the moment like this will be it for the day. Have a good one, fellow goldmeisters.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:17 - ID#228100)
Bearish Gold Forecasts
These "experts" used the same verbage to forecast the future for the stock markets in 1980-1981. When the DJIA was around 1000, Merrill Lynch's boys were telling my co-workers NOT to invest in either stocks or bonds.

Lan Man
(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:17 - ID#320108)
To Fred ( @Vienna ) : Trading in KRY has now been halted, expect news report soon.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:28 - ID#243180)
Just got back fom the dentist - he tells me he's BIG TIME invested in Diebold ( allegedly the makers of ATM machines ) . Back some time again I acquired NCR from my ATT spinoff ( as well as LU ) BUT I was under the impression that ATM machines were manufactured by NCR. Anyone know the answer !!!!


(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:29 - ID#243180)
oops - forgot....
Asked dentist about his knowledge of WB move and PMs in general. He has NO CLUE. Tried to inform him - doesn't care and goes by what his broker says...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:35 - ID#26793)
Something spooked the Dow as you said. I was just out and we have an extra high tide, a ten year high some day this week. And I am reminded of your posting about moon cycles.

Barb Hughes
(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:42 - ID#20783)

54 68 61 6E 6B 20 79 6F 75 85 66 6F 72 20 79 6F
75 72 20 67 72 65 61 74 20 61 74 74 61 63 6B 21

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:45 - ID#26793)
Japan Central Bank to investigate itself in bribery scandal. How reassuring.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:47 - ID#26793)
Diebold is one manufacturer of ATM machines.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:49 - ID#254269)
Japanes bank raided; (from Aussie Financial Review)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:51 - ID#254269)
Noon Dow at 8172 (down 17 points) 237 million shares. (Not much volume so far today)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:51 - ID#342398)
Preacher re ph #
Thanx, sorry to be late, but puter is off & on.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:53 - ID#225273)

Let me give you three salient points:

1. Your entire theory of global conspiracy must be based on mountains of circumstantial evidence the points of which have no rational tether between them.

2. The "last days" you speak of in which we are to expect a strong delusion refer to the time before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

3. This is a gold forum and your comments are both out of place and irrelevant. While I appreciate your zeal and your desire to help us understand better those things going on around us, you should temper that zeal with prudence and quit stealing our time and being a nuisance to us.

The Preacher

PS. -- If you want to discuss this privately, then please post your e-mail and I'll contact you.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 11:55 - ID#342398)
Haggis, re my email to you
Puter is messing up. Post an ok if you got it, or denial if you didn't

The Hermit
(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:04 - ID#374232)
sharefin - post of 00:49
sharefin, your post of 00:49 is much appreciated. You have a good mind! It is good for us to think "What the hell is going on". Thanks again.

P.S. Your father's poetry is good!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:08 - ID#243180)
Barb Hughes@11:42

Which 61 74 74 61 63 6B ?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:10 - ID#246224)
Another pathetic example of investor sloth ..
Look, I just do what my broker tells me to do, OK? No, I don't know what the market is doing and I don't care. He knows what he's doing. He will tell me if that's important or not.

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:13 - ID#231101)
On creating a neo-scholastic investment forum at Kitco

Basically a bench player on this Kitco site, I have not wished to enter the many discussions here because of my obvious amateur status as a gold analyst. But after having decided to commit part of my portfolio to gold, which then suffered considerably in the past year, I have spent much of the past year reading as much as possible to make my investment ignorance somewhat more respectable, staying on the sidelines evaluating what others have to say here at Kitco. And while I make no claim to have the expertise of many here whose posts I respect, I have come to the conclusion that gold investors, in order to make investment decisions based on verifiable analysis rather than emotional premises, really need to address the sort of critique made by the writer at Briefing.Com that I posted at 10:49. As a professor and writer, I have always adopted a form of argumentation that recognized the logic of those I wished to rebut. Much of my reading this past year has forced me to address the case against gold which, I believe, the analyst, justified or not, presents. And while I have a "belief" that gold will remain a monetary hedge, I am concerned that my bias drives my analysis. For example, reasonable investors, who as we all know are daunted by the gold market, have every right to ask whether gold has lost its competitive advantage as an investment hedge; whether Central Bank selling will continue to depress whatever rally gold can muster; whether paper hedging instruments ( inflation-indexed bonds, zero coupon bonds, etc. ) really have created a traumatic shift in world investing; and whether or not gold has lost its adaptability to a cybernetic investment universe. A serious evaluation of these and other arguments against gold will make us all better investors. If you are familiar with philosophic argumentation ( recognizing of course that the investment world may not neatly conform to dialectical propositions ) since Kant ( "a concept without a percept is meaningless ) and Carnap ( "metaphysical propositions make no sense" ) , then you recognize the need to establish cherished premises within a context of "verifiability." I am not announcing my capitulation to the case against gold, merely asking that we squarely confront the arguments we abhor.

So what about the anonymous "" adversarial view. How strong is our rebuttal. Id like to hear cogently shaped rebuttals from the likes of those whom I have come to respect on this site: JTF, Old Gold, John Disney, D.A., Novice, etc. etc. ( I dont want to leave anyone out, even the redoubtable equities promoter turned gold apostate, LBJ ) .

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:20 - ID#285392)
D.A. did not advocate shorting silver.
I mistakenly attributed the shorting of silver at about $7.75 to D.A when it was APH who suggested this as a good strategy. Sorry DA I was thinking one person and writing the name of another.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:21 - ID#34883)

Yellow Jacket__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:34 - ID#185112)
Somebody gulped 200,000 shares of Vista Gold this morning. Anybody know anything?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:36 - ID#211158)
Crystallex halted - up 25% this am
whats this all about???

Why no news if there is nothing going on??

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:42 - ID#340459)
(I have bought PGU Pegasus Gold @.52 Canadian, Any comments and news about the company will be
much appreciated, Thanks..

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:45 - ID#243180)
Voyeur Prof.
LBJ ??? -- "... equities promoter turned gold apostate... "

Didn't he have the JFK order which allowed the Treasury issue notes ( not FR notes ) rescinded shortly after his death ????

I see him as part of the problem. What reasons would LBJ have to rescind such an order other than for INTERNAL political needs ( perhaps his life ) .

Comments !

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:47 - ID#243180)
V. Prof.
Do you mean LGB

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:49 - ID#269409)
Old Gold, re your 08:47. You're full of...*****. Israel is our only real ally in the middle east. We have a lot of genuine interets there. It's not the "Israel lobby" that determines our foreign policy re Iraq, it's our own interests. In fact, the "Israel lobby" had the distinction this year of being the first country receiving large amounts of U.S. foreign aid, to come to us and say we want LESS money this coming year! When's the last time we heard that one?

As to the worthless sleazeball that currently inhabits the white house, if he attacks Iraq, regardless of the motive, he'll be doing the right thing. Saddam lost the war, signed the accords, and has flaunted his violation of the U.N. accords in the world's face ever since. Shall we leave a war machine intact that years from now will allow moron's and maniacs to have massive amounts of WMD's? Stuff that can be imported into the U.S. in suitcases do "get even" with the great satan U.S.? Use your head man....If you're jewish I'm martian...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:51 - ID#289357)
Allen (USA)

Client's money and broker's experience, soon becomes broker's money and client's true.....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:51 - ID#57232)
Voyeur Proffesor: I appreciate your complementary remarks -- though I am certainly not in the league of Oldman, D.A.,EB,RJ, OldGold, and others ( not necessarily in that order ) . I have some major distractions at work today, so I must be brief. My personal opinion is that is too bearish, and that a gold bottom is in. Have you read the Frank Veneroso posts that have been placed on this site? He has digested the essentials of the gold market I think better than anyone else -- at least for the longer term investor types such as myself.

The FV essentials I think are the following:

1 ) CB gold sales are over, barring panic sales from bankrupt CB's

2 ) The equilibrium price of gold is about $600/oz, taking inflation into account of over the period of FV's study ( about 150 years? ) . This does not include investment demand.

3 ) The big EURO banks, Germany and France, will not sell any gold, because they need it to support the EURO. However, the EURO as it currently stands will not be firmly linked to gold, and will be weak compared to the dollar. The effective deadline for the EURO currency alignment is April 1998, so gold sales from EURO hopefuls after this time have little practical value.

4 ) Gold loans are at 8000 tonnes currently, and as noted above, are unlikely to increase.

5 ) Derivatives trading of gold ( paper gold ) has not materially affected the price of gold, so the nearly 2000 tonnes traded per day at the LMBA will not cause paper gold to decouple significantly from the price of physical gold. So- what you see price wise is still essentially what you get, despite ANOTHER's concerns.

6 ) Drying up of SEAsian gold demand will only reduce the equilibrium price of gold about $40 -- minimal in FV/s opinion. And -- when SEAsia recovers, US dollars will head our way ( inflation ) and demand for gold will be higher than ever!

So -- if you are an investor like myself, it is clear that gold has bottomed, and will rise to nearly $600/oz even without increased investment demand.

There is one risk is investing in gold/gold stocks that you are undoubtedly aware of. And that is that if the US markets collapse ( possible ) gold stocks will collapse also. Given the behavior of gold, and the fact that the big CB's still have considerable control over the price of gold, a market collapse could push the price of gold bullion down as well. Our Fed Chairman AG knows very well the contrary nature of a rally in gold bullion, and the need to 'seal off the exits' if the markets take a turn for the worse.

Thus -- the most secure time to buy gold/gold stocks would be after a major market downturn. Until that time, you may be able to make alot of money in gold stocks, but you must be nimble. Hope this helps.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:52 - ID#243180)
Would you not agree that Arabia is one of our greatest Arab friends ? I know there are times that we would prefer they would move more pro-Israel BUT can they with there Arab brethren surrounding them.

It is my belief that they assist U.S. interest in the area much like the Shah of Iran once did but with more disgression ( we all know what happened to him for not doing so ) .

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:52 - ID#269409)
@ Wetgold
Voyeur prof was in reference to LGB. However, I'm more a "Gold promotor turned equity apostate" than the other way around at the moment... ( Hmmm, we better substitue the silver for Gold though....I'm 10 times more bullish on silver than Gold, particualry in my investment portfolio mix )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 12:55 - ID#243180)
Did you not hit the Ag low in Oct/Nov 97 ? I was then very aggressive with Ag purchases but now -- GOLD--GOLD--GOLD---.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:03 - ID#269409)
Very well reasoned post in respone to Voyeur Prof.'s devils advocate points. The final point is one that I've embraced also, namely, a collapse in equities in the U.S. is unlikely, but even if it did occur, it would NOT give Gold or Gold dhares the big boost that folks like Puetz have told us it would. One need only track activity in Gold over the past few years to see that it no longer behaves in the way it did in the late 70's and early 80's. The fundamentals have changed in what will drive the price of Gold.

I do agree with you that it has seen it's bottom at the approx. $280 level. Comex drawdowns, threats of mine closures, Gold's ability to flatten at the $280 resistance in the face of overwhelmingly bearish sentiment, the undervaluation equilibrium point you mentioned in your post, a "turning point" loooming in the world economy...all these things and many more lend credibility to the "Gold has seen it's bottom" view.

We must remember that $300 Gold and $7.00 silver, in 1998 dollars, are roughly equivelant to $150 Gold, and $3.50 silver in 1980 dollars. ( If we are to be genuinely honest about "real" inflation in all the areas that truly count ) .

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:04 - ID#246224)
V.Prof @ Argumentation
1A[rgument] ) "steep declines indicate additional 'corrective' gains in the short term"

1R[ebuttal] ) So what does he signal as a breakout from the 'corrective' gains? One can say this till US$350 or US$400. Then say "well its just back up were it should be" and conveniently forget the 20 to 30% gain based on a return to mean. Fact is POG is extremely below the mean and a simple return to mean would net a very handsome 'gain' regardless if it is 'corrective' or not. Who cares! Buy low, sell high!

2A ) "risk free short term paper yielding 3 to 4%" and "bonds at 6% risk free"

2R ) Typical ignorant comment. A bond has risk, namely a rise in interest rates. This will slice chunks out of the principle. We are at very low interst rates now ( historically lows for 30 year period ) so where do you think interest rates will go, down??? The risk in bonds is not as great as equities but it is still there. When ever someone says 'risk free' I think 'saleman'.

3A ) examples of inflation hedges "inflation indexed bonds and oil futures"

3R ) Bonds, see above. Futures? No casual investor can use them without getting shafted almost immediately. This person makes using futures sound like using the telephone. Unless you wish to spend a great majority of your time learning about this and take quite a few lumps in the process futures are a no starter. Besides in previous rhetoric he was talking about 'riskless' and in the next breath 'futures'; this is spurious. See derivatives market now '100 Trillion dollars in liabilities', etc.

4A ) "jewelry demand is relatively brisk particularly in India and China" and "investment demand is virtually non-existant"

4R ) This person does not know that 'jewelry' in the East *IS IS IS IS* investment. It is a form of savings. This cultural ignorance is tremendous. If I go on I will sputter!!! ( doing it already ... ) Investment demand is strong and rising rapidly in the west. See all the posts regarding mint bullion coin sales, Mfund bullion purchases, etc. SOMEONE has drawn in excess of 1 Million ounces out of COMEX WHILE GOLD WAS DROPPING IN PRICE. Doesn't that beg the question of "who would be so stupid to hoard gold that they are removing this from the inventory when they could lease it and make a few bucks"??? Look at Warren Buffett in Silver ( and now Soros in gold see USAGOLD commentary today ) . Warren has gold also, but is not being investigated on that count so he will not divulge till end of March on this 'investment'.

5A ) "stocks are driving to new highs"

5R ) DOW is range bound. NASDAQ and S&P are topping. This is typical for a consolidated DOWN move. There is NO sign that this is renewed vigor. In fact the volatility in equities has been increasing quite dramaticly. We are at a turning point in stocks which will be led by a significant drop in the US$ and increase in bond rates. When this happens, then 'look out below'. Until then we wait...

Hope this is somewhat helpfull in the debate. Personally the guy who did the 'analysis' you posted sounds like a typical regurgative machine. He is told what to think and is simply reinterating it in his voice. Well, Warren Buffett and George Soros are no idiots. I would watch them and what they do VERY carefully. Otherwise throw darts, eh?

Lots of luck.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:05 - ID#243180)
BART: Kitco Au sell prices
Most folks I deal with sell Leafs/Eagles/Roos the same price. Kitco is currently selling Maples with a slight premium over Eagles. What's the reason ?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:05 - ID#340459)
Any comments good or bad on PGU, Pegasus Gold

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:06 - ID#28585)
Midas, there are some very canny boys buying stock in in PGU aka
PSGQF ( Nasdaq ) ...I believe they will be amply rewarded.

Once the banks accept the reality that Mt. Todd ( Australia ) is a non-recoverable loss they simply will have to write off and live with, then expect the bankruptcy to sail through quite smoothly. It should be short, sweet, and the common should receive a strong spike once the company re-emerges from bankruptcy.

Be assured the common will trade actively again. The convertible bondholders ( repped on the bankruptcy committee ) will demand it.

There will probably be dilution of equity ( up to 20% ) ...but not so much that a stock price of .50 in any way, shape or form reflects the value of the remaining assets...particularly if those assets are valued at a gold price exceeding 350...and that's where gold is headed. The sooner the price reaches that point, the sooner bankruptcy will be terminated.

This is yet another case of a group of canny vulture investors and their "partners-in-crime" ( stock analysts, business journalists, etc. ) scaring the hell out of the average shareholders, sweeping in and picking up stock for cents on the dollar, then waiting for the gold bear to turn to a bull, so ultimately they can sell their 1/2 dollar stock for at least 5.00 or more within the next year.

How many times have I seen this over the last 20 years!! The sad thing is that so many misinformed, maleducated shareholders fall for the same scam time after time.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:09 - ID#269409)
@ WetGold
No, I didn't buy any silver after July/August. Most of my physical was purchased in July at average buy price of $4.40. I guess I had company with my buddy WB, though I didn't know it at the time. WB and I had precisely the same reasons for buying however, and likely the same "buy and hold" to $9.00 or $10.00 mininum.... strategy.

Yes the Saudi's are an ally, but I think their support for the U.S. could easily evaporate overnight if there is ever a resurgence of a truly major middle East crises. This would not be the case with Israel. The Saudi's tolerate us, but there is a large faction of fundamentalists that would love to see the U.S. influence in Saud, completely erased. Remember what has happened to our troops in that countryand the escalating intolerance for Westerners there.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:12 - ID#225273)
Old Gold & LGB Heating Up!
Old Gold,
I agree with you that the Israel-first lobby is one of the biggest reasons Clinton is so belligerant toward Iraq. The other reason is that the U.S. is a member of the UN, as is Iraq. This is an organization that assumes it is the world's government and that all its member states arre like citizens, duty-bound to obey its laws ( resolutions ) . Iraq will not obey its resolutions, hence it must be punished.

This is different from how countries interacted with each other before. It is also the reason SH was not driven from power in 1991. For once Iraq was out of Kuwait and other UN resolutions were being followed, then the UN had no more interest in pursuing Iraq or SH.

You might remember that UN and US troops stood by and watched SH butcher the Kurds immediately after the Gulf War. You see, they were powerless to stop the slaughter because no UN resolutions were being violated. It was only after further UN resolutions were passed concerning the Kurds that the UN could take action to protect them.

Of course, they couldn't bring the many dead ones back to life. But so it goes.


You have stated that we ( US ) have many interests in Israel. Could you please name some of these interests? And what is it that makes Israel more of an ally to the US than, say, Iran?

I'll have more to say once you've given some reasons behind your argument. So far, you have just vehemently stated a proposition.

The Preacher

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:12 - ID#231101)
mea culpa to all

I have become a bit dyslexic as of late, probably due to the gold reversal of the past year, yes, indeed I meant LGB.

JTF: Thank you for your quick response. As usual you are both incisive and objective. I am particularly interested in your view of gold derivitives. They have long been the curse of higher gold prices along with the strong dollar.

LGB: If you are bullish on silver rather than gold, I assume you accept the bearish senario that CB's and short sellers will continue their game. But isn't gold, valued at approximately $410 if adjusted for inflation since 1980 ( a figure I read recently, not my calculation ) still a better value than silver?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:14 - ID#238422)
LGB, your post 12:49
Excelent post, LGB.

From time to time I just can not believe
the unbelievable BULLSH*T that some people had in
their heads.

Thank you, you are the man...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:16 - ID#340459)
farfel, Thanks Brother. Do you think PGU at .52 cents a good price in your opinion and if you have
info, I would appreciate

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:19 - ID#270315)
Can somebody please tell us where this is going to end up by Friday, I am hoping this is the beginning of a short term rally to $315.00 by Thursday. VRONSKY!~ perhaps you could shed some light on this issue?

Barb Hughes
(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:22 - ID#20783)

Sorry =..

41 6C 6C 20 6F 66 20 74 68 65 6D 20 49 20 77 61
74 63 68 65 64 20 77 69 74 68 20 6D 75 63 68 20
61 64 6D 69 72 61 74 69 6F 6E 20 6F 66 20 79 6F
75 72 20 63 6C 65 76 65 72 20 61 6E 64 20 61 6E
61 6C 79 74 69 63 61 6C 20 6D 69 6E 64 2E 0D 00

Hope these help in your array...
Am out till PM, a bit long today!
Take care & GO GOLD & SILVER TOO!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:22 - ID#28585)
Midas, I suggest you contact HAGGIS...he probably will provide you the pessimistic, devil's advocate analysis of Pegasus.

Then, I suggest you analyze his opinion and juxtapose it against mine.
Whichever analysis makes the most sense should determine whether or not you did the right thing vis a vis your recent Pegasus purchase.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:27 - ID#426220)


RECENT POSTING: "Reuters report that Soros was in the market. Down the road, we think it will surface that Buffett and Soros are acquiring gold as well."

As we all well-know Warren Buffett has purchased 20% of the world's annual silver mine production. This position now represents a paltry 2% ( TWO PERCENT ) of the $41.5 BILLION investment portfolio he manages. Furthermore, Buffett has always been a stock and bonds man ( paper-fiat type of investments ) . Based just upon these two facts, is it reasonable that he would limit himself to a miserly TWO PERCENT OF HIS TOTAL PORTFOLIO FOR PRECIOUS METALS:

Buffett most likely has been building positions in GOLD BULLION AND GOLD & SILVER MINING SHARES for some time. Look at his MO of investment during the past 30-40 years - patterned after the legendary author of the Analyst's Bible "SECURITY ANALYSIS," Benjamin Graham. The basic investment criteria of Graham was TO BUY VALUE, AND TO SELL OVER-VALUE. Now we must all remember Buffett is of the traditional school of valuation indicators: PER, Dividend Yield and Market to Book Value. Now it does NOT require an 'Einstein' brain to realize all three indicators are at all-time highs - vis--vis 19-year lows for GOLD.

WARREN BUFFETT is too old and traditional to be changing his highly conservative investment spots at this stage of the game. Therefore, I conclude it will be revealed and proven in the future that the Oracle from Omaha has cautiously been accumulating all forms of precious metals investments. In fact it would not at all surprise me that he has been doing it with some kind of affiliation with George Soros, who is nothing more nor less than a proxy for the incalculable wealth of the Rothschilds.

The formidable investment team of Buffett-Soros-Rothschild makes the Hunt Brothers investment duo of the latter 1970s, which caused SILVER to soar to $50/ounce, look like a pauper act. Interestingly, at current prices the Fabulous-Three could buy up all the shares of precious metals mining companies in the world - WITHOUT FINANCING A CENT.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:40 - ID#28594)
USA Global Leaders for WEF/Davos sees it...
Congressman Robert E. Andrews ( D )

Congressman Joesph P. Kennedy, Massachusetts ( D )

Congressman Pete Geren, Texas ( D )

Zoe Baird, Senior Vice President, Aetna

Carol M. Browner, EPA

Jeffrey D. Sachs, Director, Harvard Institute of International Development

Lawrence H. Summers, US Deputy Secretary of the Treasury

Lawrence Katz, Professor of Economics, Harvard University

Nora R. Slatkin, Executive Director, Central Intelligence Agency

Paul Krugman, Professor of Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

George Stephanopoulos, Visiting Professor of Political Science, Columbia University

Voyeur Professor@Please.don't.shoot.the.messenger.

As we noted in our last update, the ingredients ( excess supply, discounted valuations and the competitive advantages of RISK-FREE short-term PAPER yielding 3%-4% )

The weak link in the argument: risk free....paper
One is paid interest BECAUSE there is risk.

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:41 - ID#231101)
Allen (USA): Molo gratzie, Lei e molto gentile!

Allen, many thanks, you are very kind to respond. I agree with your critique about bonds at their peak facing a potential spike in inflation, but, of course, even CB's have sold gold to buy bonds believing it more logical to get rates above lease prices. And isn't this sort of thinking precisely part of the reason that gold has been perceived a moribund investment. One year ago, I was shephered around the innersanctum of the New York stock exchange by a Senior Vice President of Yamaichi International Inc.. He regaled me with his wisdom about investing, but when I asked him about gold, he blanched and suggested I forget gold. Well, ironically, maybe Yamaichi actually did worse than invest in gold, but it remains a problem if high-level investment professionals perceive ( read my emphasis on the word, percieve ) gold as an inverior investment. And with inflation still minimal and even a side-tracking DOW, investors will not rush to gold anytime soon with this sort of view.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:47 - ID#187218)
Peeking Prof.
"... investors will not rush to gold anytime soon.. "

"Investors" leaving the DOW and entering the confines of the PMs will sky rocket the POG, et al. BUT -- it is my belief that the music will eventually stop and we ( holders of the physicals ) will have pre-assigned seats. Those scrambling for a chair due to their lack of foresight will be our amusement. To take this entertainment from us si rather selfish.

Let the "investors" invest how they wish and let the ( cow ) chip fall where they may.

Welcome aboard!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:48 - ID#253389)
SDR'er - That's a frightening list!
Truth is things may be so completely messed up in the not too distant future that any list of folks with ties to the current leadership will have no hope of ruling. We can only hope.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:48 - ID#93232)
te.....vr..d..e t
You can sure tell a lot about a person's personality by reading their posts. And always buy a consumable commodity when the price is less than ( or close to ) the cost of producing it. I mean Always...and I hope everyone here does their own gold-buying Kansas City, there I was...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:49 - ID#269409)
@ Preacher....U.S. Interests
I didn't say our interests are in Israel. Our interest are in the region. The most obvious of course is middle East oil. Less obviousl and certainly as important are containment of terrorism from several terrorist sponsoring middle east states. Also a balance of power preventing WW3 should certainly be considered one of our interests since Israel and the other middle East countries are all considered a focal point of world tensions, including by our former adversaries, Russia and China who also have interests there ( such as SF's big debt to Russia for example ) . I'm scratching the surafce, but how anyone can miss the fact that we have enormous interests in the region is beyond me.

As to Israel as our ally, they have always been our only true ally in the region, and our only faithful friend in the region. The same is true in reverse, we are the only superpower who have consistently prevented the Arab nations and the Paestininas from "driving the Israeli's into the sea".

As to Saddam, I shake my head when I read such nonsense as I've been reading lately about why he has a right to flaunt the U.N. accords. He signed those accords and agreed to them, when he cried "uncle" on losing a war in which the whole world was aligned against him. Now after a few years go by, and he refuses to abide by the accords and stop producing WMD's, we're all supposed to just roll over and let him fulfiull his dream of dominating the region through terror and threat of annihlation? Using weapons he has already demonstarted he's happy to use, even on his own people?

Finally, breaking away to an entirely different subject, and one which I do not doubt I'll take much heat for raising.....If you study biblical prophecy, you will find in several dozen places that those who are Israel's defenders in the world arena will be blessed, and those who come against them will be cursed and destroyed. We'd do well to keep this in mind. If you have no faith in biblical prophecy, OK, but also keep in mind that it was biblcal prophecy that predcited the 2000 year dispersal of the Jews and the bringing together of the Jews back to their land, a new Israel, in the days preceeding the "end times". ( End of the current age, not end of the world ) . An unprecedented event in world history, yet predcited clearly throughout the propheccies.

This issue will diverge way too far afield of this forum, and could be debated in volumes, thus I'l leave it to others to judge and study for themselves. Nonetheless, this NON "Gloom and Doomer" has very recently come to believe that we are on the cusp of world change, much of which is predicted in the biblical prophecy, not to mention in other less reliable sources. ( Nostradamas et al )

Our support of Israel, may be our only salvation when the world goes mad on us.

To break away

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:51 - ID#223146)
Taking Delivery on Feb Comex Gold Contracts
Just notified that only two contracts have been tendered out of 20. Where is the gold. Anybody out there know anything. Have a high position on the Q for delivery, ( early positions dilivered to first ) . Lets start watching the draw down numbers very closely. Just maybe we may have a situation.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:52 - ID#270315)
It stands to reason, this is one of those times that you look back on and say, I could I not see the righting on the wall. Well, Soros and Buffet are writing in big bold letters; GET IN WHILE THE GETTIN IS GOOD

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:56 - ID#187218)
"As to Saddam, I shake my head when I read such nonsense as I've been reading lately about why he has a right to flaunt the U.N. accords"

You know he could have been taken out before and could have been taken out since. There is a good reason that he is alive and doing what he's doing. I don't know who wants him around NOR the reason he is performing his duties BUT don't you agree that SOMEONE ( group ) has him available for SOME REASON. Why ? I'm not part of the scam - I don't know ( just conjecture ) .

Lord Master ANOTHER ( truth keeper for the puppet masters ) : Where are U when U R needed.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:59 - ID#410194)
"It's the psychology stupid" (Silver)
That's what I kept telling myself while learning to trade and to invest the hard way and now that I make a living ( and a very comfortable one ) by betting on anything that "moves" in the markets, it still serves me well to consider the psychological factors surrounding us.

Except for a very brief spike to "750", March Silver has been very much on the defensive since the euphoria of last Thursday morning when Silver was considered the "surest thing" of all the current available trades and investment vehicles. I no longer feel comfortable in crowded trains, especially not when the latest comers are the inexperienced traders/investors hoping to make a killing because of what they heard in the news. And boy, did we hear about the Silver thing since last week.

This was too much for me as soon as last Thursday morning and I closed out 80% of my positions at around "730". Emotional traders are probably the ones who bought from me! Being in the market since last August 5th, this bull market has treated me amazingly well and for now, I'm starting to think that much of the spotlight will have to come off Silver.

For the last few months, a few of us were sending out strong messages about the Silver situation ( without making silly specific predictions because it must always be up to each of us as to what we do with what we read and what we learn ) but most of the people always tend to take their decisions emotionnally when the big move is mature and the train will need to shake out some of those who got on board late if and when the up move will resume.

Since last Thursday morning, Silver prices retreated at the same time as the Comex inventory stocks continued to decrease but that's because no fundamental and logical news can get in the way of the very complex psychology of the markets. To succeed in this fascinating field, we definitely need to think "different".

To make an account grow, it's not about inviting others on the internet to follow emotional predictions which mostly all prove to be failures. ( I never understood these "prediction propagandas" because I view "trading" and "investing" as something extremely personal and I can only agree with the great sharing of opinions and different views that 95% of the people are doing here and the sharing of closed and past trades can also be ok because nobody can be hurt by something that has already taken place but rather to learn from it ) . Trading is about thinking and understanding the surrounding psychology because that's what has the last word on any moves in the markets.

The long term picture in Silver is still bullish because of the unresolved supply and the demand situation but for now, I'm not willing to bet more than my current 20% remaining long positions because I also respect the fact that "anything" is always possible!

P.S.: Last year's huge run-up in Coffee ended the very week that Jay Leno started to joke about the high Coffee prices! No jokes about Silver on Letterman or Jeno yet though...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 13:59 - ID#253389)
MIDAS_A and farfel - News of Pegasus
farfel - any insight on this news.

February 9, 1998


Pegasus Gold Inc. ( PGU - ME ) announced that MICHELLE G. VIAU has been promoted to Vice President and Chief Financial Officer replacing Phillips S. Baker, Jr.. Mrs. Viau joined the Company in October 1984 and has held a variety of financial positions including Tax Manager, Assistant Controller, Controller, and most recently Treasurer. Mrs. Viau has been a Certified Public Accountant since 1980 and prior to her employment with the Company, Mrs. Viau worked as a public accountant for Coopers & Lybrand.

Mr. Baker has informed the Company that he will be leaving Pegasus to join Battle Mountain Gold in March.

``Micki's extensive experience with all the Company's financial affairs and proven leadership and management capabilities will ensure a smooth transition as Pegasus works to reorganize,'' stated Werner G. Nennecker, President and Chief Executive Officer. ``Phil has done a great job for the Company and we wish him every success in the future,'' he concluded.

Statements in this release which are not historical data are forward looking and involve a number of risks and uncertainties, including but not limited to the price of gold and other commodities and currencies, production, construction and permitting or regulatory delays, reserve estimation of tonnage, grade and metallurgical recoveries, exploration success and reserve growth, litigation, capital costs, and other risks that are detailed in the Company's SEC filings.

Pegasus Gold Inc. is an international gold mining company, headquartered in Spokane, Washington. The Company carries out exploration internationally through offices located in Santiago, Chile; and Panama City, Panama. The common shares of Pegasus are traded under the symbol PGU on the Montreal Exchange. The common shares also trade over the counter in the United States under the symbol PSGQF.

For further information: John W. Pearson Vice President, Investor and Public Relations ( 509 ) 624-4653

This Report Updated by Canstock at 7:13:03 Pacific Time


(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:05 - ID#41229)
Clinton selling assets
One thing that has not been picked up on yet is that Clinton admin. is selling U.S. assets to make balance sheet look good. They have been selling, silver, oil, and who knows what else. Have heard that they were looking at selling power districts. We are literial being sold out! It amazes me that the press excepts these outlandes statements of balanced budgets and funding more programs. I seem to remember how the press towed the Democrat line on Soc. Sec. cuts along with Education cuts.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:09 - ID#269409)
@ Voyeur Prof.... Gold vs. Silver
Yes, I can agree that if we speak relative to 1980 dollars, one can well make a case for Gold's need to rise in order to reach equilibrium with silver. A few problems with that scenario however.

Firstly, the LONG, long term Gold silver ration has been more like 10:1, rather than the 40:1 or so we've seen lately.

Secondly, the huge overhang of CB Gold, and world financail leaders willingness to sell of their reserves at the slightest whim, combined with worldwide bearishness of Gold as an investment vehicle, Gold's decoupling from monetary links worldwide, and a lack of runaway inflation in the major economies, leads me to believe we are in a somewhat new era re Gold. We'lll have to see some major shifts in world tensions, the world economy, or inflation before Gold can really take off.

Silver on the other hand has many ways to win. If you believe in long term shortage, and good supply demand fundamentals ( as I do ) then that will drive it up. If Gold rises, that will also drive it up. If players deside to sqeeze the market...that will also drive it up. If world economies and tensions should erupt to the point that confidence in paper is shaken...that will also drive it up.

There are so many "upsides" to silver, and so little downside risk that I do indeed feel it's a much better bet than Gold. I've purcahsed a little Gold in the past few weeks, got a few "Saints" when it was around $290's as well, but for the most part, I think silver has a much better "risk/reward" ratio for the NON player ( a conservative long term physical holder, which is what I've been so far )

I think $7.00 silver is cheap.... It'd be far easier in my view for $7.00 silver to make a 30% gain in 1998, than it would be for $300 Gold to do the same. Though that equation has changed drastically of course with the recent runup in silver. I like it at $7.00, but I liked a lot BETTER at my buy price of $4.40!!!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:09 - ID#41229)
Press towed the lines during last elections

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:11 - ID#227238)
LGB: The perceived change in the fundamentals related to gold should be viewed more in the context of cyclical events rather than as an immutable and permanent shift. IMO. Equally, the universe of "investors" also believe that another man's debt is more valuable than gold.

Are belief systems to be judged on the basis of 20, 30 or 40 years experience or several thousand? Though egregiously wrong for some time now, I, unabashedly, vote for the latter.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:11 - ID#257148)
Does that mean that you do not see a General Equities Collapse in the foreseeable? Or perhaps you assert that even if there is a GEC, Gold PM companies & Funds will be excepted?


Ted: buying in water today for first time since I lived here.

El Nio: Blow away.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:12 - ID#348286)
vronsky: I agree that this whole sharade may be to dupe mainly the mining producers, and some CB's and shorts to sell out PM's heavily.
When they feel the time is right they will reveal their positions and blow the market away.
If this is the case, it will be very expensive to jump on board
after the fact --- of course this is what most ordinary investors usually do.
This market is dominated by secrecy, so it's certainly possible to hide a very large position for a long time.
Buffet has been purchasing since July and only had to reveal his postion now because of the Silver lawsuit.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:14 - ID#93232)
The gold market seems to show an emotionless disregarded silver's move and shrugged at most all of the weighty news stories. Three dollars up...three dollars down and pretty static as far as momentum...standing buy orders from dedicated buyers? Hedging mines...on the sell side?

Silver maybe one quick and brief rally left.... then correction before next move maybe months from now?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:15 - ID#238295)
LGB: Israel has violated numerous UN resolutions -- far more than Iraq. But no one ever suggested ( and I am not ) that she should be bombed for non-compliance. The hypocrisy of US leaders in the current situation goes beyond chutzpah.

Crystal Ball
(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:16 - ID#287367)
Don't be looking for a gold rally anytime soon. We're overbought short-term in PM's ( especially silver ) and $XAU. Gold could go back to 385 and silver to $6.25 easily. With near-term falling equity prices and mezzo-mezzo metals, I expect a BIG pullback in $XAU ( maybe 10 points. THAT's when you should buy.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:17 - ID#345176)

During the WWII sir W. Churchil had a meeting with general de Gaulle.

De Gaulle asked Churchil who he thought will win the war.
- obviously the one who has the most cavalry, answered Churchill
- but cavalry, sir, is no longer used in wars replied surprised de Gaulle

Churchil reached in his pocket, pulled out a gold sovereign and pointed to de Gaulle the knight in the back of the coin

- you misunderstood me, my general, I mean this kind of cavalry

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:18 - ID#252127)
Vronsky 13:27

That's the type of optimism we need to counteract the Wall Street Manipulations perpertrated upon us.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:20 - ID#28585)
I have little doubt that Mr. Nennecker is slashing payroll costs in any area he can.

My impression is that any person who cannot justify his existence on the PGU payroll is on their way out...and those essential people who are earning "hefty" salaries are learning they must take major reductions in pay...or else head for the exit as well.

Unfortunately, it is all part of the bankruptcy experience. Yet, the ultimate result: survival in order to see a brighter day!

I always like to refer to SSC ( Sunshine ) as a great example of a company that went through a de facto bankruptcy...nobody really thought they would survive. The company whittled its payroll down to the bone, saw its share price drop to .50, and is now in full rebound owing to the renaissance in the silver market.

If silver continues to build momentum ( and I see no reason why it should not ) , then SSC will turn out to one of the most impressive performers on the NYSE this year...If silver moves to a price of $12.00 ( and I think that is quite possible, then SSC is easily a 3 billion dollar company ( or not less than $3.00 a share ) .

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:21 - ID#270315)
(:- -)
aurator: What I am saying is that Warren Buffet has come out with a statement that he can not find any terrific value in the stock market today. So it makes sense that a General Equities Colapse could indeed take place. Gold and gold stocks could stand to benefit from such a collapse by all means.
We must remember that this is a 5 - 10 year vision that Buffet and Soros have implemented.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:21 - ID#269409)
@ Realistic
I agree with your post that for now, we've seen the best flurry of bullish activity in silver, that we'll see for quite awhile. It's time for a slow base building correction process as the WB hype fades away.

If you believe the coin and bullion dealers, silver sellers were coming out of the woodwork last week to umload their hoarded 1980 purcahses of "junk" coin and bullion bars. The weak hands who couldn't bear to sell at a "loss" are now selling at a "loss" ( when you factor in inflation, their $8.00 to $10.0, 1980 silver would have to rise to $16 to $20 for them to "break even" not even accounting for the fact that their investment dollars would have made 1000% gains in equities in the interim )

now does this "little guy" divesting, influence the market or is it a mere drop in the bucket? Will we see COMEX inventory rise as the smelters refine this influx, or will it be inconsequential?

IMHO, we'll see silver drop back into the $6.50 region, and behave much more tamely for the next few months as it build a solid base well above it's previous multi year trading range of $4.00 to $5.00. Thus, those who weren't savvy enough to buy in when many of us were screaming "fundamentals" will still have their shot at it.Comment?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:22 - ID#253389)
farfel - thanks
for your response.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:23 - ID#348127)

Ask yourself what is wrong with this picture. POG goes from 360 to 280 in the wake of
1. Crumbling Asian Economy
2. 1000 pt. slide in the Dow
3. Presidential Inpeachability
4. Iminent War in Mideast
*Not to mention the littler news likeJapans statement that they may start selling US bonds
Whats it gonna take to bust out.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:26 - ID#194311)
Rally at the close?
methinks yes

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:31 - ID#93232)
@mapleman.....I. B. Phillieman...
I like the word "shortage"'s the missing ingredient...or so the market has not thought. But there is a worldwide shortage of gold and silver. Everybody I know wants more than they can have.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:32 - ID#224149)
Pipe Dreams and Drugs
Soros ,Buffett ---Buying gold ?Can anyone please direct me to the actual article or announcement to this fact.----I doubt it ----another pipe dream from the boiler room boys What ever happened to the American Education system are they taught RUMORS ONLY.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:32 - ID#269409)
@ Yassar Arafat..I mean OldGold
Don't make me laugh, "Israel has violated more UN accords than Iraq" Puuhleeeze. Israel made multi year war on Iran? Muredered millions ? Invaded a peaceful unthreatening neighbor like Kuwait just to steal the land and oil? Lobbed SCUDS at a country with which it wasn't at war? Muredred civilians by the thousands with poison gas? FLaunted WORLDwide condemnation re continuos agression outside it's borders directed at countries that aren;t a security threat, and even threatening invasion of Saudi Arabia? ( Which certainly would have been the next domino if U.S. and wolrd hadn't stepped in ) .

Give it a rest. Your position is so untenable as to be laughable. Israel has taken unilateral actions, only when their security was threatened, such as the bombing of the nuclear weapons develoment installation that Saddam was tring to build.

As I said before Yassar, if you're Jewish, I'm a Martian.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:34 - ID#410194)
The "little guy" divesting is only a drop in the bucket.

I agree with everything in your post of 14:21.

We are more likely in a new era as for Silver pricing but the small traders/investors will now need to be discouraged by taking their losses from the last quick and violent run-up because they mostly invested in this market at higher prices than what Silver is at this very moment!

So yes, another healthy base building in a new higher price bracket and as usual, very few will be there for the next exciting & spectacular chapter in the Silver market which I think will be the real big one.

Time and patience are needed though.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:36 - ID#28585)
LGB, I am surprised to hear such reticence re: Silver.

IMHO silver psychological mania has not even begun to spread out from the professional sector yet.

Once, the average investors begin to load up on Ag, then I think their purchases will far outweigh sales of existent inventories.

I expect a huge psychological boost when WB announces his silver move to his disciples at the approaching annual meeting and said announcement is further disseminated throughout the media.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:48 - ID#368244)
@ Higher Gold Prices

I have a Yen for higher gold prices. $ 320 end of Feb.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:49 - ID#220247)
KMTMAN: "What I am saying is that Warren Buffet has come out with a statement that he cannot find any terrific value in the stock market today. So it makes sense that a General Equities Collapse could indeed take place".

How nice if the financial world would be this simple.Warren Buffett is still invested up to his eye balls in equities and has not liquidated his holdings in stocks. Don't forget that the equity market has managed to fool most of the experts in the past few years ( I am not talking about Buffett ) and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I keep telling everybody who wants to listen that there is far too much pessimism for equities out there. No market collapse has ever materialized under these conditions. Only few weeks ago Asia was supposed to terminate us all. Now we are not so sure anymore... Stay invested and make money. Frightening yourselves every second day will do you nothing but financial harm.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:49 - ID#227238)
Realistic @13:59: That was one helluva good post. Good stuff that should be said more often. ...... "Act in haste, regret in liesure". Not.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:54 - ID#252127)

Better that we take the phantom 22 billion silver ounces and go on a ( AG-AU ) bi-metalic standard to back those untold trillion of dollars in paper produced since 1974. Their name USA Today seems to be the only truth that they print.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:58 - ID#224149)
Ted-Surprised you pulled the Trigger ---C$ was filling last gap up ---Anyway your decision your money Away to buy more C$

(Mon Feb 09 1998 14:59 - ID#258129)
FTP server is down again

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:13 - ID#407135)
Qestor 13:51 post
I am not sure what that implies but I do notice that open interest in gold late Jan and early Feb is sharply lower. Are the shorters closing out positions and givng up for a while perhaps

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:29 - ID#231101)
Waiting for Eldorado

LGB: I guess my reservations rest with maplemans catalogue of news trauma that has shaped the past year. If such events cant disrupt the new paradigm mythos that drives the bull, what will? I no longer think a serious market correction possible, because liquidity seems abundant due to foreign investment that supports the bubble ( though I am speaking only of the short term ) . An objective look at most analyst projections, even the modest bears of Barrons "Roundtable" remain convinced we are only looking at a GDP reduction resulting in 8-10% yield averages this year. Unless "fundamentals" do change, what will serve as a sufficient prod to shake the bubble-boat. Understand, I believe we are looking at an absurdly priced equity market, many have affirmed as much. But the public-- the same public I might add that gives Clinton a 65% approval rating and a 57% protest rating against Starrs investigation"perceives" things differently. As farfel says: "Its the perception, Stupid! Personally, I think gold will eventually gain respect, but only in the long term when something traumatic urges our Barney-like investment psychology the other way. Maybe the Japanese will finally dump their dollars or the Euro-dollar will become an alternative, but gold needs to move to another frequency or dimension to get moving as vigorously as many here claim it will.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:39 - ID#31868)
I say let the elected coward with his pants down lead the charge into Iraq.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:46 - ID#252127)
Mapleman 14:23

GOOD POINTS, I also wonder why. It seems that the fiat powers are doing everything possible to confine gold in a range of $300 to $400, even with the over reaction on the down side. It is a shame, gold's commodity value is about $600 and Greenspan sees $400+ as an bad omen - to who - and all to protect the robber-barron paper assets. Or is it being held down to give certain powers time to accumulate? Damn, I wish I knew for sure.
Possibly, very few miners will be left standing and the monied manipulators will buy them up for a song.
If this occurs, gold will surely rise to extraordinary heights.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:54 - ID#375108)
Trading halted on Kinross and Amax on the TSE, pending news...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:56 - ID#227290)
Delayed answer to LGB

I've been doing some work for a change and am just now getting back to you.
1. I did misunderstand you, thinking you said we had interests in Israel when you actually said we had interests in the ME.
2. While I agree that SH should keep agreements he has made with the UN, I would also hold that Iraq and every other country should remove themselves from the UN.
3. You have still not made it clear how that Israel is more of an ally to the US than Iraq. And by ally I mean a country that does something for us in return for what we do for them.
4. You are correct in saying your theological ramblings are going far afield. Yet since you brought it up, I think I get to give a counter view. In believing that America has a God-given duty to protect and defend the modern state of Israel, I believe you are making the same mistake as the Pharisees of Jesus' day, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell. For it is not the physical descendents of Abraham that are the recipients of God's covenant, but the spiritual descendents of Abraham.
In short, it is the Christian church that America has a God-given duty to protect and defend, not the modern state of Israel.
5. As for Arab terrorists bringing WMD into the US, the problem here is the US open-immigration policy. That's what needs to be changed. There is no reason for people from the ME to be immigrating here. A change in policy would do wonders for national security.

The Preacher

PS. -- Once again, we are straying from the subject of gold and gold markets. If anyone wants to take this matter or any others up privately, e-mail me at

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:57 - ID#31868)
back at the tiny silver mine
Take a peek at Clifton Mining folks. CFB in Canada.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:59 - ID#374211)
@ All eyes on South Africa.....DEEP Troubles.....
As I have been saying on thid forum for some time Finally others are
starting to properly focus on the the deteriorating situation
in SA's gold mines . The State ( Mandella ) may nationalize
the Gold Mines, Reuters reports that 14 Gold Mines will probably close
after staying alive by selling off it's all of "Kitty" Gold in cash market, somthing like 114,000 miners to be laid off. This has very serious implications both domestically and regionaly, since a large number of
miners come from Mozambique etc.. and when these funds don't flow
into said countries, you can count on unrest throughout Southern
Africa. Even if Mandella can stave off Nationalizing the Mines, the
BIG trade Unions as the POG rises will DEMAND higher wages
better living conditions etc...SA Gold mines are highly geared for manual
labour, employing vast numbers of Blacks in their mines.... The changes proposed in the Green paper for mineral rights "use them or loose them"will be devestating for current mines beacuse it is meant to free up exploration areas now tied up by said Mining Co's, thus limiting their potential areas of reserves. In additioin many of the Big SA Mining co's
have sold off higher cost properties, and thus will probably not do well
with much higher POG , since they have kept the "lower costs" properties, and thus limited in reserves and life of mine...
Let's not forget that the Black Majority will now rule SA, and so though
previous attemps had failed, this time is different...
Of course not to mention the 'tribal" issue Blacks and Whites, and suddenly....well we'll have to follow the situation closely....
here is the USA URL ....ALL of course JMHV.... Quotes

Carpe Aurem
(Mon Feb 09 1998 15:59 - ID#339292)
Halted. Porque?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:00 - ID#429245)
Silver outstanding deliveries
Realistic-- I would be interested in your views on the outstanding orders that WB expects deliveries on by March 6. Doesn't this make you think silver will go up as the day draws near?

I appreciate your COMEX stocks reports and your other posts.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:01 - ID#252150)
Old Gold@Iraq (08:47)
I'd like to commend you on having the courage to express an unpopular view, thereby exposing yourself to sniping from the brainwashed & the braindead. While your numbers are small; along with Noam Chomsky, you are in very select company.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:01 - ID#254269)
Dow closed at 8179 (down 10 points or 0.13%), S & P 500 down 1.84 points, 30 yr. bond

at 5.942%. Volume on NYSE 518 million shares. NASDAQ volume 679 million shares.

Carpe Aurem
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:04 - ID#339292)
Kinross Amax
Hey if it is Kinross and Amax, Kinross can certainly accomodate all that debt and you're talking about a new million ounce producer ( with Amax's production being contributory to cash costs ) . Not many "million-oz"-ers in the world. Wow. Good deal. I hope that's it. I'd buy it.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:05 - ID#254269)
@ Jack re your 15.42. Could the reason that gold is in this "trading range" be

that there are more people ( voters ) who have money in mutual funds/shares than there are in gold ?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:06 - ID#26793)
Gold & silver news, Portugal, India and more

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:08 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.26

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:08 - ID#231101)
Apologies to Realistic

Realistic, my profession depends upon my ability to respect proper documentation. I mistakenly attributed to farfel your employment of the epithet, "It's the psychology, Stupid!" And I believe much of our late-lamented gold currently suffers from an identity crisis. Thanks.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:09 - ID#237149)
Portugal's CB and Gold
Portugal's CB announced talks w/ its goverment to start gold sale...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:10 - ID#93232)
The wobbley-legged little.....
bull calf is about to wander outside the corral....dare we say....shortage? Ohmy...tis the sweetest word....shortage...caused by shorting.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:10 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .258

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:11 - ID#231101)
Investors with mutual fund/shares.

Avalon, many of us have mutual fund gold shares. The trick is to convince more people they stand to profit from such positions.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:12 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 42.74

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:14 - ID#403159)
NUKS ? Gold is showing a very poor performance.
Can't seem to get up. Thats why they say patience
is a virtue. Does anyone here have any left? I see
alot of hands.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:17 - ID#224151)
Just caught tail end of Ron Insana interview with author guest re his new book on Precious metals markets.Trying to get more info but he said he thot WB was in silver for a quick play and in effect there's a new Paradigm in PMs! Forget the Old rules and's now strictly for trading. Trying to get Book title and author's name.

Carpe Aurem
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:18 - ID#339292)
Hey Tzaddy Baby

Re: SA, On a related topic, SA Minister of Mines says that with those 13 ( or 14 ) mine closures will come not only the loss of approx. 130,000 jobs but also what he said was an AVERAGE of 8 dependents per employee ( which adds up to over a million people ) living in destitute. He is making an appeal to the CB's to this end, in an effort to relieve selling ( thereby giving POG a break and staying those mine closures ) .

It seems to me that Gov'ts have done a heckuva lot more for far fewer people suffering far less than what Mine Minister was talking about.


(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:20 - ID#238295)
Heavy Hitter: Far to many people on this forum trying to predict every wiggle in the gold market. That is now how big money is made. Just ask Warren Buffett. Only those with PATIENCE will reap the big rewards.

LGB You forgot to mention that US fully supported Iraq attack on Iran as did Israel for a time. As long as they follow US dicatates, our leaders don't really care how many their stooges murder. Suharto of Indonesia has killed millions, but the US has been his primary supporter for 30 years.

Since this is a gold site I will now shut up on this matter.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:20 - ID#270230)
Kinross Amax

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:21 - ID#20137)
It has happened again. Please look at

immediately. Set to gc8j

if it is still there you will see:

14:38:26 301.6 sttl g 1
14:38:26 301.6 sttl w 1
14:38:03 689.6 sttl g 1
14:38:03 689.6 sttl w 1

Normally I would assume that a contract was bid at the end of the day at $689.60.

This situation also occurred one day last week. Would someone be so kind as to explain what is occurring here?

Thanks in advance.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:25 - ID#254269)
@ Voyeur Professor; meant to say mutual funds invested in industrials, growth
companies, high tech etc. ) I think anyone savvvy enough to invest in gold would consider all their options including gold mutual fund shares,
but the average joe would probably not. I doubt the average joe would differentiate between the various methods of investing in gold.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:27 - ID#373403)
Shaky gold sentiments expressed here on Kitco recently
Look, if it were easy to hold gold in the face of recent losses and pundit cynicism then more people would be building golden boats to ride out the suspected coming storm.

We are looking at a minimum of doubling our money at $600 gold when central bank overhang abates based on current demand. Add to that the possibility of even higher gold with investment demand when confidence gets shaky in the dollar and there is much potential upside given a limited downside.

Finally, if the U.S. financial markets were to see a loss or decrease of confidence, holding gold would make you wealthier without it even going up in price just because you preserved capital when everyone else lost purchasing power.

Hang in there, it's the fourth quarter and we are in scoring position. It is easy to make a bad call in this type of pressure situation. Keep your head in the game and we will win this together. We have momentum. Hut, hut, hike....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:30 - ID#252150)
Dwayne@Thanks For Posting Kinross Release
I sold it last week because it was'nt movivg with the mkt. Now I know why.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:30 - ID#403159)
If you bought 18 years ago you are still waiting.
Anybody who has been waiting that long has
patience. I've been waiting 12 years. I wonder
if there is anyone here that has been waiting
over 10 years with substantial investment in
the metals.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:39 - ID#269191)
So there is political risk in S.A. and the mines are high cost.
Gosh, I'm shocked to learn this. Do you think that's maybe why they
are so cheap and have accordingly better potential in a rising gold
Yes there are problems because of the low gold price and yes the
mines are high cost. The first problem will be solved by higher gold
prices which are coming shortly and the second is no problem at all.
Rather it provides the S.A. with the operating leverage that gives
them superior investment potential when compared with the low cost

I think how seriously the markets take this threat was indicated by the
price action today. Gold only went up a $1.90. If the threat were
taken seriously, gold should have gone up alot more. Further, I just
checked the closing quotes. ASA was up and so was Drooy. Further your
low cost producers in so-called politically safe areas hardly moved today.

While there is some risk that the S.A. government will do something stupid, I think it's unlikely for the simple reason of money. In
order to keep the money loosing mines open would require subsidies
which the government can't afford.

The way you hedge these risks is to not put all your eggs in S.A. and
have N.A. shares too.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:48 - ID#410194)
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

Gold: Unchanged at 428,613

Silver:Plunged 2,163,505 ( ! ) troy ounces to 98,528,728 -A new 13 year low

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:49 - ID#318118)
South African Mine News
Someone had a post earlier today saying Reuters had a story out today about 14 SA mines being closed because of social unrest or government problems. I have searched the news from Reuters and find nothing.THIS IS
IMPOTANT. Where is the news?????

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:51 - ID#411149)
You don't TAKE DELIVERY of 20% of the silver supply for trading purposes.

South Africa ain't gona national the mines, they just in the last month or so allowed each mine to sell their own gold, in the past the gold was
sold to the government. If nationalization is a worry then I would be more concerned about the US mines. Nuff said, end of discussion.

But if something like nationalization bothers you then that is a good reason to own some of both. Hell you get RICH either way!

Tally Ho

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:51 - ID#318118)
impotent=important. Sorry

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:56 - ID#254269)
Dow/gold ratio 30 day moving average is 27.92, a premium of .66 (or 0.24%)
to today's actual. Premium gap on Friday was .15%.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 16:59 - ID#269409)
@ Kudos to Vronsky
For publsihing Peter Dag at his site and thus adding some true diversity to the mix of analysts there. Also injoyed the latest from Milhouse re silver. That Golden Beagle site is gettin better!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:02 - ID#222186)
A.Goose - Quote
Wishful thinking. The phenomenon is caused by COMEX confusing GC8J and SI8H. If you watch CNBC, they often quote gold at $7.02 and silver at $302.90 -- what do they know? Same problem.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:03 - ID#410194)
Regarding your post of 16:00, good question.

The answer: no.

If it's confirmed that Buffet takes delivery, it won't be news. The market already knows about it and so it can not move silver prices too much anymore. Otherwise, trading would be much easier!

Now let's reverse our thinking a bit and what if he doesn't take delivery? That is NOT in the news and it would catch traders on the wrong side. I'm not saying that he won't take delivery ( it's qute irelevant now for the Silver market ) but I'm using this as an example to stress upon the importance of covering "all" angles when we trade or when we take trading decisions and even if we feel that everything has been covered, we should still acknowledge and be aware that there is always the unexpected...

For Silver to move higher at this point, we now need more news, something that we don't already know about!

It could be more sustained drop in the inventory stocks, it could be a sudden outburts of inflation, and/or all kinds of things that we can't even imagine at this point.

Let's remember: Silver prices have increased more than 60% prices since last summer! A hell of a move reflecting the tight supplies but it's only last week that most ordinary people started to hear about it and so they are jumping in the bull market that started many months ago. From past experience, this usually signals a pause in the move or even a correction that could get rid of all the late comers!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:12 - ID#411149)
one more comment
The traditional owner of the SA mining stocks are the Europeans, they know that some of the objections mentioned here will never happen.
They just keep on collecting their dividend and livin happy, gettin
richer and richer. One reason they know that, is because each year they spend their vacation in SA, Europe's playground.

Tally Ho

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:15 - ID#302251)

Just for the record:

1. I was the first to introduce WW3 to this forum.
2. I was the first to say that 280 was the bottom.
3. I was the one who introduce the Trilateral.
4. I was the one who clearly said that all the Arabs
will unite against us.
5 I was the one who told you that
China and Russia will join the Arabs against us.
6. I was the one who told you that Turkey
will be a key turning point at the beginning of WW3.
7. I was the one who always insisted that WW3 will start in 1998.
8. I was the one who hammered into your heads REPEATEDLY
that the news media has absolutely NO credibility.
And NOT just now,
but for the last 30 years....... and you never realized it !!!
9. I was the first to inform you that Anthrax is already here
in America at the hands of Iraqi terrorists.
10. I was the one who begged you to wake up
as the Trilatereals and the NSA are using Remote Viewing,
and therefor all your brilliant analysis of Gold is meaningless.
It took Gold to move from 390 to 280
before some of you started to look into all the scientific websites
I provided you regarding Remote Viewing.

You are always too late.
You always wake up AFTER the fact.
Instead of arguing with my ideas,
some of you resorted to trying to force BART
to remove me from this group.

I do not have any agenda
most of you are intelligent enough to realize it by now,
as I am bouncing all over the place.

All of you are gravitating slowly to my positions
without mentioning my name.
That is OK.
After all it is very embarrassing for you kids to admit
that most of the interesting discussions at this forum
started by an old lady from the bush who knows nothing about GOLD.

NOW !!!
In the last 24 hrs
many of you have wondered
why in the hell William Cohen is beginning WW3
just because he wants to humiliate Saddam by inspecting his bedroom,
even though Saddam complied with all UN resolutions
while Israel complied with none.....

Some of you may have also wondered if it is the same William Cohen
who told us last month that everyone with just one room and $5000
can create an Anthrax factory.

If * anyone * with * one * room * and * $5000 * can * do * it,
why it is so important to inspect Saddams bedroom ???


This attack on Iraq has nothing to do with Saddam.
This is an excuse to start WW3.

This is an excuse for the Trilateral to make money selling weapons.
This is an excuse for the Military to test their new weapons.
This is ALSO a plot by the UFOs who are controlling our government
to destroy our civilization,
as we are getting too hard to control.

Everybody wins but you!

The Internet and the Art Bell Radio Show,
provided an irrefutable evidence
that we have been all manipulated by the UFOs for thousands of years.
Radio and the Internet have brought to
an exponential flood of disclosures regarding UFOs,
the only thing left for the UFOs to do is
abandon their experiments on our planet OR
plunge us into WW3 as they did before.

I just lost all my credibility with you,
as everyone of you obviously know,
the government always told us,
there is no such a thing as UFOs.


(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:18 - ID#269409)
Monday February 9, 1:07 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

SOURCE: Pan American Silver Corp.

Pan American Silver Locks-In Zinc And Silver Gains

VANCOUVER, Feb. 9 /CNW-PRN/ - Pan American Silver Corp. ( TSE: PAA - news; NASDAQ: PAASF - news )
reports that it has closed out its zinc hedging program for a gain of U.S.$1,476,000. This gain will be realized from
March through December 1998. In July 1997, the Company fixed the price on 800 tonnes of zinc per month ( about 40
per cent of production ) for the August 1997 through December 1998 period. Zinc is produced from Pan American's
Quiruvilca silver mine in Peru. During 1997, the additional revenue generated by hedging was $341,792 and for
January 1998 it was $231,000. At this time, the potential benefit for February 1998 cannot be determined.

The Company recently sold its silver call options for a gain of U.S.$370,000.

Pan American is a silver mining company with over 650 million ounces of silver in reserves and resources. The
Company is well financed with working capital of US$37.8 million, no debt, and positive earnings from its Peruvian

The statements that are not historical facts are forward-looking statements involving known and unknown risks and
uncertainties that could cause actual results to vary materially from the targeted results. Such risks and uncertainties
include those described in the Company's Form 40-F as amended.

SOURCE: Pan American Silver Corp.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:25 - ID#372344)
@ tsclw...RE South Africa Deep Trouble.....
Why don't you go to the URL site I provided in my post, If you happen to get an error resubmit the same URL USA today comment, and there you will read all about it ......Believe me plenty of IMPORTANT NEWS....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:26 - ID#20137)
Date: Mon Feb 09 1998 17:02
korondy ( A.Goose - Quote ) ID#222186:

Thanks, I was afraid of that.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:32 - ID#39845)
William Cohen is a little green man? Oh yeh.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:33 - ID#27251)
Upside down
Korondy, could be because they have the symbol wrong.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:33 - ID#403159)
When you taking that trip to the moon.
But when you go, maybe you can
just keep going towards the sun until
you exterminate entirely. Were waiting!

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:36 - ID#403159)
Your post. I just about died laughing.
That was good.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:36 - ID#269409)
@ Ziva....Trilaterlists, Art Bell, UFO's, and WW3
Ziva, the "kinder gentler" and spiritually awakened LGB, does not wish to seem contentious. mean spirited, unkind, or harsh. But if I might search for a tactful way to express my opinions re the major portion of the points made in your post....may I respectfully submit, in a gentle way, that I do believe you may be;


That said however, I believe we would do well to exercise caution in our complacency, and consider that indeed, the world may be on the brink of some sea changes that will not be pleasant....

Spud Master
(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:42 - ID#273112)
Just for the record Ziva,

Just for the record:

1. I was the first to introduce the game "Risk" to this forum.
2. I was the first to say that -180/oz gold was the bottom.
3. I was the one who introduce the Quadrilaterals, Unilaterals and Polylaterals.
4. I was the one who clearly said that all the Arabs
will unite against Olestra and Nutrasweet.
5 I was the one who told you that
the Vorlons, China and Russia will join the Vatican and Antartica against us.
6. I was the one who told you that Turkey, Mashed Potatoes,
Gravy, Cornbread Dressing and Blackeyed-peas
will be a key turning point at the beginning of Thanksgiving
7. I was the one who always insisted that the War Against the Shaddows will start in the Third Age of Man
8. I was the one who hammered into your heads REPEATEDLY
that the new Iomega Zip-disk media has absolutely NO credibility.
And NOT just now,
but for the last 30 years....... and you never realized it !!!
9. I was the first to inform you that Diet Mr. Pibb is already here in America at the hands of Iraqi marketing executives.
10. I was the one who begged you to wake up
as the Quadrilatereals and the NSA are using Remote Sniffing,
and therefore all your brilliant analysis of croissants is meaningless.
It took Gold to move from 390 to 280 to 310 to 305 to 273 to 345 to 311 to 281 to 300.04 to 306 to 297
before some of you started to look into all the scientific websites I provided you regarding Remote Sniffing.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:42 - ID#348127)

As I sat here thinking how nice it was to communicate with folks as sane as myself I had a thought that we probably all were connected in some sort of way. That connection could be through the possibility that we wre all miners back some 6000 years ago. In Sitchens book the 12th Planet he illustrates how some of us were slaves put to work for a superior race of beings who had come to Earth for gold dust. Could it be that some of us are able to understand how mportant gold is because we remember.
Fascinating Book -Check it out

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:43 - ID#269409)
@ Ziva.apologies
Oops, I'm slow today, it's Monday. I just realized your entire post is intended as satirical comedy.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:43 - ID#254269)
Ziva; I think you're 100% correct. I'm sure that some of us have been
manipulated by UFO's.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:46 - ID#238295)
buy and hold
Heavy Hitter: I am not trying to play every jiggle because gold and gold stocks are incredibly cheap and I maintain we are in the very early stage of a huge bull market. Buy and hold has indeed been a disastrous strategy in gold for many years. But the times they are a changin.

On the matter of SA: Perhaps the potential for trouble there is forcing the CBs to relent under pressure from the political authorities? Not in the West's interests for SA to blow up.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:47 - ID#26669)
Question about financing physicals?
Today I got notification that Blanchard & Company has started a PM's financing program. ( They require 50% margin and did not give the details of interest rates, etc. ) My question for others who have financed gold in the past or better yet sellers like Bart or R.J.: What are the going rates? What are the usual hidden charges? What are the risks and benefits as opposed to buying it outright and putting it in one's own bank vault?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:47 - ID#238295)
buy and hold
Heavy Hitter: I am not trying to play every jiggle because gold and gold stocks are incredibly cheap and I maintain we are in the very early stage of a huge bull market. Buy and hold has indeed been a disastrous strategy in gold for many years. But the times they are a changin.

On the matter of SA: Perhaps the potential for trouble there is forcing the CBs to relent under pressure from the political authorities? Not in the West's interests for SA to blow up.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:48 - ID#270315)
check it out

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:48 - ID#238295)
buy and hold
Heavy Hitter: I am not trying to play every jiggle because gold and gold stocks are incredibly cheap and I maintain we are in the very early stage of a huge bull market. Buy and hold has indeed been a disastrous strategy in gold for many years. But the times they are a changin.

On the matter of SA: Perhaps the potential for trouble there is forcing the CBs to relent under pressure from the political authorities? Not in the West's interests for SA to blow up.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:48 - ID#238295)
buy and hold
Heavy Hitter: I am not trying to play every jiggle because gold and gold stocks are incredibly cheap and I maintain we are in the very early stage of a huge bull market. Buy and hold has indeed been a disastrous strategy in gold for many years. But the times they are a changin.

On the matter of SA: Perhaps the potential for trouble there is forcing the CBs to relent under pressure from the political authorities? Not in the West's interests for SA to blow up.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:52 - ID#372344)
@ Carpe Aurem...
Hey Carpy Baby, I don't quite know who is pulling the strings here....
the CB"s have known about the SA troubles for some time now so
could they be deliberatly keeping the POG down to close these high costs SA mines and thereby deprive someone ( CHINA? ) from getting at
that Gold....hard to thing is certain something better happen
to the POG very soon, or else....well you know enough said....
BTW I am pleasantly suprised to hear some on this Forum NOW advocating oth SA and NA mines that's better, so the NA Gold mines are not worthless after all... Hmmmm, interesting.......
ABX looking better by the minute....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:53 - ID#238422)
Ziva, take your WW3 and stick it in your
stinking mouth and get the hell out of here...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:56 - ID#269409)
@ Ziva
Spud & all, don't mind Ziva, he's still very annoyed about missing the shuttle to "Hale-Bopp" comet last summer when his Heaven's Gate friends left him behind. ( I hate to joke around in bad taste..but...This girl named Monica was in the oval office and...Oops, that's a different topic... )

Now Spud, such comedic satirical posts as yours are so unlike you. I do love the change!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:57 - ID#393224)
Ziva -- I am beginning to think that anthrax would be preferable to reading any more of your posts.

Mr. Smith
(Mon Feb 09 1998 17:59 - ID#347333)
MINING, the driving force of civilization...
Somebody put "STAR WARS" on t.v. last night and as I watched a couple things occured to me that never had before:
1 ) "thats not a planet, thats a space station!" Ever figure how much steel it took to build the Death Star? I wonder how much gold they used?
2 ) If we ever get around to building a huge space station like that, we'll have to do a little more mining.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:03 - ID#254269)
Good morning Nick @ C; how are things downunder this a.m. ?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:04 - ID#302251)


Just for the record:

1. I was the first to introduce WW3 to this forum.

2. I was the first to say that 280 was the bottom.

3. I was the one who introduce the Trilateral.

4. I was the one who clearly said that all the Arabs
will unite against us.

5 I was the one who told you that
China and Russia will join the Arabs against us.

6. I was the one who told you that Turkey
will be a key turning point at the beginning of WW3.

7. I was the one who always insisted that WW3 will start in 1998.

8. I was the one who hammered into your heads REPEATEDLY
that the news media has absolutely NO credibility.
And NOT just now,
but for the last 30 years....... and you never realized it !!!

9. I was the first to inform you that Anthrax is already here
in America at the hands of Iraqi terrorists.

10. I was the one who begged you to wake up
as the Trilaterals and the NSA are using Remote Viewing,
and therefor all your brilliant analysis of Gold is meaningless.
It took Gold to move from 390 to 280
before some of you started to look into all the scientific websites
I provided you regarding Remote Viewing.

You are always too late.
You always wake up AFTER the fact.
Instead of arguing with my ideas,
some of you resorted to trying to force BART
to remove me from this group.

I do not have any agenda,
most of you are intelligent enough to realize it by now,
as I am bouncing all over the place.

All of you are gravitating slowly to my positions
without mentioning my name.
That is OK.
After all, I realize it is very embarrassing for you kids to admit
that most of the interesting discussions in this forum
started by an old lady from the bush who knows nothing about GOLD.

NOW !!!
In the last 24 hrs
many of you have have been wondering
why in the hell William Cohen is beginning WW3
just because he wants to humiliate Saddam by inspecting his bedroom,
even though Saddam complied with all UN resolutions
while Israel complied with none.....

Some of you may have also wondered if it is the same William Cohen
who told us last month that everyone with just one room and $5000
can create an Anthrax factory.

If * anyone * with * one * room * and * $5000 * can * do * it,
why it is so important to inspect Saddams bedroom ???


This attack on Iraq has nothing to do with Saddam.
This is an excuse to start WW3.

This is an excuse for the Trilateral to make money selling weapons.
This is an excuse for the Military to test their new weapons.
This is ALSO a plot by the UFOs who are controlling the NSA
to destroy our civilization,
as we are getting too hard to control.

Everybody wins but us and the Arabs !

The Internet and the Art Bell Radio Show,
provided us with an irrefutable evidence
that we all, have been manipulated by the UFOs for thousands of years.
Radio and the Internet have brought to
an exponential flood of disclosures regarding UFOs.

The only thing left for the UFOs to do,
is abandon their experiments on our planet OR
plunge us into WW3 as they did before.


I just lost all my credibility with you,
as everyone of you obviously know,
the government always told us,
there is no such a thing as UFOs.


(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:05 - ID#304282)
Crooked coin dealer?
I was recently contacted by Swiss America and they asked me if I was interested in buying coins through them. I replied that I buy through Merrit Financial in LA. The sales man told me that a lot of people were having a lot of problems with Merrit and that they weren't getting they coins they ordered or they were taking a long time to recieve their coins.

Is just a dirty sales job by Swiss America or is their some truth behind their statements. I would appreciate anyones opinion.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:08 - ID#254269)
Monica cartoon.
Our Dallas paper on Sunday carried cartoons from some other US papers.

The cartoon from ( I think ) l..A.Times shows the Prez sitting in his chair
in the Oval Office. Some bimbo is sitting in his lap and she and he are kissing like crazy. Hillary and Ken Starr are standing at the end of the desk and Hillary turns around and punches Starr in the jaw.

That's it folks.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:09 - ID#403159)
When you fled the circus it
was your intentions to keep
us kitcoties entertained.
As it is we don't get enough
clowns on this forum at least
professional ones like yourself.
Maybe you show us how you
can bungee jump with a nylon
rope from 1000 feet and survive.
Were holding are breath, so hurry
up and perform your act. Can't
stand the pain anymore.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:10 - ID#429245)
Gold and war...
I agree with those who predict that a war with Iraq will result in higher gold prices.

However, I am sure that many on this forum share my ambivalence about the prospect of this war. When considering the war as a fundamental in assessing golds direction, one anticipates profits. But step back and examine that analysis from your broader perspective, and you can become shocked at how easily personal gain can influence your thinking, if only momentarily.

Realizing this yesterday, I e-mailed to Jean Cretien asking him to deny the USA any Canadian support in this planned war.

Killing the victimized countrymen of a tyrant for the sake of controlling a resource that does not belong to us is against everything Canada stands for. Worse would be doing it because the USA pressured us. Offering 'Non combat support' is absolutely as low as you can sink.

I challenge everyone who reads this to make a clear statement where it counts, regardless of the effect on their economic interests.

You can e-mail Jean Cretien at

I dont think it matters if you are Canadian or not, but in any case, you can always write to your own government.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:10 - ID#304282)
What is Ziva referring to when he says...
remote viewing?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:14 - ID#302251)
Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:04:32 -0600 ( CST )
"STRATFOR Systems Inc."
ZIVA, Kitco's Queen, USA


The Global Intelligence Update:
With Subscribers in Over 50 Countries

Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
February 10, 1998

Indonesian Situation Continues to Deteriorate

According to Agence France Presse, riots swept across dozens of Indonesian
towns over the weekend, triggered by economic uncertainty and fears of
further austerity. In Bima, thousands rioted, destroying the town's
shopping area. In Ende, on the eastern island of Flores, mobs attacked
Chinese merchants, holding them responsible for economic problems.
Hundreds of Chinese were sheltered inside of police and military
installations. On Sumatra, security forces were ordered to shoot anyone
causing a disturbance, after a mechanism appearing to be a bomb was
discovered and disarmed near a bank. A warning near the bomb demanded
that the government reduce prices. The crisis has grown so serious that
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan called President Suharto on
Monday to discuss the deteriorating situation.

The Suharto government is responding to events by flexing its muscles. A
general military exercise was conducted in Jakarta on Saturday, with
thousands of reservists deployed in a show of force in anticipation of the
opening of the People's Consultative Assembly and the presidential
elections to be held next month. More than 10,000 troops, known as the
ABRI, drilled in the middle of Jakarta. Jakarta's police chief asked that
citizens living outside of Jakarta not come into the city during the
period that the Assembly was meeting. In an attempt to be reassuring,
Jakarta's Regional Military Commander, Major General Syafrie Syamsuddin,
declared Jakarta to be safe, saying "I assure all foreigners living in
Jakarta not to worry about their safety, and that we take responsibility
for maintaining peace and order in the city." Human Rights groups
condemned the maneuvers, claiming they were designed to intimidate the
public. Syafried responded by saying that various human rights groups are
in fact involved with radical elements and will be dealt with. Suharto
himself warned the media against reporting that could spark social unrest.

Behind all of these events is the worsening economic situation. The IMF's
first loan installment has been spent. The government reports that it has
medicines on hand to last through April. With only $20 billion in hard
currency reserves, the government must now choose between importing raw
materials to maintain the factories or basic goods to maintain the
standard of living. In the meantime, Suharto is toying with the idea of
pegging the rupiah to the dollar in order to stabilize it, in spite of the
fact that this would impose further austerity on an already restive

In the background waits Sukarno's daughter, Megawati Sukarnoputri. She
directly challenged President Suharto on Monday, demanding that he account
not only for the economic crisis, but also for the $16 billion fortune he
has reportedly amassed. And, in the midst of the unrest, the head of
Indonesia's largest Islamic organization, which supports Suharto, claimed
that the outlawed Indonesian Communist Party ( PKI ) , brutally suppressed by
the Suharto regime in the 1960s, is active again and is attempting to
subvert Moslems. This immediately raises images of the suppression of
Chinese and Communists three decades ago, and puts Megawati on notice of
the dangers she courts.

In wondering where all this will end, our attention was attracted by
comments made by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahatir Mohamad over the
weekend. Said Mahatir, "By pulling out their capital, they [the West]
have taken away the wealth that we have built up, leaving us practically
destitute." We continue to believe that the ideological explanations for
the economic disaster being developed by Prime Minister Mahatir will prove
a powerful alternative to the chaos threatening Indonesia. By blaming the
West, Asian societies can justify their hardships without shattering their
cohesion. In Malaysia, of course, the present government is well
positioned to carry this off. In Indonesia, this intellectual
repositioning will require the departure of Suharto and his supporters.
But, as they showed this weekend, they do not plan to give up easily.


To receive free daily Global Intelligence Updates
or Computer Security Alerts, sign up on the web at>, or send your name,
organization, position, mailing address, phone
number, and e-mail address to>

STRATFOR Systems, Inc.
3301 Northland Drive, Suite 500
Austin, TX 78731-4939

Phone: 512-454-3626
Fax: 512-454-1614

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:19 - ID#26669)
Swiss America
I talked to a SA salesman last year. They were a little high pressure for my liking and asked for all the gory details ( I didn't tell them ) about why I was unhappy with a NY coin dealer I bought from year before last. To each his own, as the man said when he kissed his cow, but as for me my own isn't SA. IMHO

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:19 - ID#393224)
G'day Avalon

Gold shares slightly up this a.m., silver shares slightly down as is general market after sycom ( futures ) were slightly down. Nothing spectacular happening.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:20 - ID#288156)
Apologies for interrupting Ziva, but...
Where Are We?

Thoughtful cyperspeak this day on the market asking Whither goest thou? and the posting of an excellent short list of dire happenings that did not awaken gold. Is it a puzzle?

Mozel wrote an excellent piece ( Mozel writes nothing else! ) about fiat/digital currencies as transaction-happenings; and, as we ponder that post, we become more aware of the most germane fact --derivatives EXIST because the system is broken.

The function of a reserve currency is to provide the level business-playing field: circa 1950s-1960s, multi-party, multi-country contracts were drawn with payments in the reserve currency, USD. Stability. The contract written in 1952--to build a dam e.g.--with a final payment in 1962, in USD presented no problem to the receiver of that last check.

We are all aware that this is no longer possible.

The fiats are commodities priced to market every day; so, in addition to normal business risk, business now must pay bankers to risk-manage financial payments.
DERIVATIVES EXIST BECAUSE OF THE INHERENT INSTABILITY OF THE FIATS. A futures contract for grain deliveries five years hence can not be priced in USD. It is the Big Lie repeated loudly and often, but a lie nonetheless. How is it possible to have a contract for the future delivery of goods priced solely in the reserve currency of USD which is marked to market every day? It is not.

Adam Smith interviewed an articulate ( and likable ) Russian from Davos. Speaking of the troubled Russian economy, this gentleman said, They ( those saying that everything is fine ) are only watching the blood pressure and the temperature, which are normal. But the patient has broken legs and arms, and internal bleeding and is dying! As Virgil declared, ...fuit Ilium...

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:23 - ID#403159)
I agree and took another plunge into gold stocks and physical
3 weeks ago almost at the very bottom. A very big plunge
I might add. Doing very well right now. This gold market
looks some what dull though. My only wish is it does not
go down and test the lows. If it does it will be frightening.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:24 - ID#20167)
Your 17:15 post is very interesting
and you sure stirred up a hornets nest
Since you have an excellent ability
to prognosticate, what is your
prognosis for the price of gold
and silver for 1998?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:25 - ID#390249)
London dealers fear gold buying in India
Why would the dealers in London be afraid of Indians cashing in their silver to buy gold? I think the attached PM update is interesting especially the quote:

"That was the fear, that the Indians might starting buying gold" one dealer said.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:26 - ID#26669)
Bart, help!!!
I think you have a great site. I think it would be greater if you limited people go a given number of words per post or per 24 hours.

And if you can still get that programmer who did the golden-eagle change, see if he can convert "WW3" and similar words to "flowers and love".

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:29 - ID#287207)
Heavy Hitter: If the old lows get tested I'll be buying--and frightened

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:34 - ID#28585)
Today's late announcement of the Kinross merger with Amax gold is sheer brilliance!

It effectively combines three major companies into one entity, namely Cyprus Amax, Amax, and Kinross.

Moreover, it is the first tangible evidence of imminent and rampant consolidation in the industry.

I would not be surprised to see a very quick takeover offer ( within the next quarter ) extended for the "new" Kinross by another major.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:34 - ID#403159)
What I'm wondering is when do
the little green men start buying.
Kidding aside it's the best news
I've heard all day if India starts buying.
But we have been hoping for a large
short covering rally and it hasn't
happened yet. Still looking up
at the gold gods for answers.

The Hatt
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:35 - ID#294232)
USA GOLD REPRTS: Trader confirms SOROS in GOLD MARKET!!!!!!!!
Well the time has come and the tables are about to turn and expect the move to be sudden and out of no-where. I suggested three days ago that the Buffet announcement was made to turn everyones attention to silver while Buffet accumulated Gold. Looks like perhaps I was right! Watch for the next announcement to be Gold and while the PM shorters have been fretting about silver it will be gold that puts an end to the ponzi game of leasing. Be patient my friends the game is about to begin and this time we will make the rules!

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:39 - ID#403159)
Are you still waiting for a pull back?
What if it doesn't come? Will you
chase the rally or just stand aside?
The only problem with waiting it
could run away on you like silver
did to most. I have a strong feeling
gold will do the same.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:41 - ID#210114)
Give Peace A Chance
GW 18:10 I totally agree. As an Australian, I am horrified that once again we shall back the US on another one of its military misadventures.

Those who hoe to profit from the war by higher gold prices should take a look at what's inside themselves.

I'd rather have a poor peace than a rich war.

Live Long ( in peace ) and prosper.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:42 - ID#254269)
Asian crisis dominates talks;

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:42 - ID#287207)
HATT: Important news. Can you give a URL or more information

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:45 - ID#403159)
If your right and I don't see why not
the gold bull will get going with a few
fireworks. Sounds good to me. Keep
posting. Your not ANOTHER"S
brother are ya?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:46 - ID#287207)
Heavy Hitter: Silver didn't run away on me but gold could. I usually buy marginal mining stocks and there is always reason to expect they will pull way back with any dip in gold. If the HATT's last post turns out to be substantiated then you are asking some good questions.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:48 - ID#28585)
Since gold broke back above 300, the Au mining industry has been waiting for someone to step up to the plate.

Kinross did!!

I would expect the Kinross-Amax merger to light a fire in the merger-consolidation of the industry. Once this fire is lit, then it can only increase the rebound of the POG itself.


Most likely takeover targets: BMG, RYO, TVX, and the "new KGC" itself.

Expect future mergers to be modeled on the KGC approach, i.e., essentially NO CASH, ALL STOCK mergers, with assumption of target company debt.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 18:50 - ID#57232)
Derivatives Symptom, not disease
SDRer: I like your concept -- that heavy use of derivatives is a sign of instability. Currency derivatives trading going up a sign of instability in currencies, just like what would happen to any unstable commodity!

Looks like Russia is very close to an implosion. I think we are in a quiet period before we hear about the spread of the 'Asian currency flu'.

Rudiger Dornbusch's comments about Japan's financial nightmare, with an apparent imminent mainland Chinese devaluation also makes me think that the resurgence in SEAsia markets is premature.

Have you heard anything concrete about Japanese banking reform? I am sceptical that Hashimoto will be able to wrestle the Japanese bureaucracy to the ground, even with the threat of financial immolation. We need to be cautious about how all of this effects gold and gold stocks -- this would be bearish, not bullish. But -- civil war in Russia would be bullish for the dollar and gold. Makes you think that the Saddam Hussein crisis is a minor problem in comparison to the other things that are or may happen soon. The threat to peace in the ME is not coming from Saddam. Hopefully we goldbugs will not get caught in the turbulent crosscurrents of history in the making.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:01 - ID#227290)
Spock, Hope, & War

I think you need to distinguish between those who hope for war and plan to profit thereby -- and those who see war coming and make plans to profit thereby.
These are two separate concepts.
Newsletter writer Richard Maybury likes to say: "History shows you can never go wrong betting on war."

Again, this is a different concept from provoking war for profit.

We all should want and work for peaceful relations between man and man. But I don't feel the least bit guilty about loading up on gold investments right before the breakout of a major war.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:01 - ID#252127)
Avalon 16:05

When they the Wall Street Manipulators have the populace believing that excellent returns IN MUTUAL FUNDS and even stocks will continue for a long time to come, I have to agree with you. Did you see that AOL went up $12 today to about $110???, now that is hard for the lemmens to resist - basis was a $2 buck rise in their fees.
People were high on the Asian Tigers a while back, even Mexico - my basis for - the big investor cannot lose.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:03 - ID#403159)
You might hate me for saying this but I don't want to see
any more buying opportunities IN GOLD. Hope everyone
gets on the train but I can't take anymore pain.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:13 - ID#252127)
farfel 18:34

Yeh; Another million ounce producer that can make a decent profit even at $400 gold. At least they will ( may ) have big daddy Cypress Amax behind them.
Either big daddy feels much higher gold prices, or a possible sale based upon a slight run up in the gold price.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:13 - ID#368244)
@ Neophyte
Very interesting observation, and a very unusual choice of words, not once but twice.

On a different subject, anyone hear any more on which Canadian mine might be shorting silver?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:14 - ID#26669)
Prime planning 40% forward sales

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:15 - ID#252127)
farfel 18:34

Yeh; Another million ounce producer that can't make a
decent profit even at $400 gold. At least they will
( may ) have big daddy Cypress Amax behind them.
Either big daddy feels much higher gold prices, or a
possible sale based upon a slight run up in the gold

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:22 - ID#28585)
Amax has suffered because its costs per ounce of AU are too high.

Consolidation permits those costs to drop. It is that simple.

That is why the best thing that could happen to this industry is oligopolistic consolidation in which no more than two or three companies are left producing at least 95% of the AU. In other words, a de facto cartel. Only then do the gold producers have any possible clout in dealing with international governments, the CB's, etc.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:24 - ID#28585)
Amax has suffered because its costs per ounce of AU are too high.

Consolidation permits those costs to drop. It is that simple.

That is why the best thing that could happen to this industry is oligopolistic consolidation in which no more than two or three companies are left producing at least 95% of the AU. In other words, a de facto cartel. Only then do the gold producers have any possible clout in dealing with international governments, the CB's, etc.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:24 - ID#403159)
Agreed, although I disagree with any
bearish case for gold right now. We
have too many immessurable problems
coming down the pipeline. I know the
sceptics have declared gold a barbaric
form of wealth, they ( sceptics ) will all turn
to gold when things come undone. The
Soros and Buffett factor is also a very
bullish case and timing tool for the PM's.
I'm fully invested and that's probably why
I push for the bullish case. Ageed!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:28 - ID#255217)
Maligning Ziva - why?
I am a fairly recent newcomer to this site, so forgive my ignorance when I ask: Why are so many of you down on Ziva? From what I have seen of her comments, I find myself in agreement much of the time. I may be a newcomer to this site, but I didn't just fall out of a tree. Go to it Ziva!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:28 - ID#28594)
JTF--Japan 'Investigation'
I've been engrossed by that too! Following several very
promising threads...because something is most certainly transpiring BEHIND the'll be the first to know {:- )
Good piece this morning! --as usual--

Re: derivatives--I think one could make a fairly reasonable
case that derivatives are the mobile reserve currency. It is most NOT
the dollar for any transaction of widgits that spans any length of time.
Hope the office crisis was resolved to your satisfaction. Incidently,
is the end of Feb your window for 'earth problems'...can't bring myself
to use the other term as our soil is SOAKED THROUGH!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:30 - ID#242258)
You mentioned civil war in Russia as the event which
will be bullish for gold and dollar. No doubt it will...

Can you possibly imagine what will happen with the
world if this civil war really happens.. in a country
saturated with at least 8,000 nukes ( I believe it's
16,000+, at least twice this OFFICIAL ammount ) .

You wouldn't probably need all this gold if it happens...

Take care.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:33 - ID#284251)
Email chatter
Richard Maybury Jan/98 Issue. Saddam Hussein is not the only cutthroat in Iraq. If he is killed, he will be replaced by someone as bad or worse. The same for Iran's Khameini and every other ruler in the Persian Gulf. They are gansters. The lives of all the thousands of royal family members together are not worth the life of one American soldier. The Gulf is a powderkeg with a burning fuse, and the only rational course for the US is to get neutral, but no one in Washington even talks about neutrality.
International Forcaster by ( Bob Chapman ) One last thought on the latest Clinton scandal. It could be Slick Willy was set up and Monica Lewinsky could be an unfortunate dupe. Linda Tripp was and may still be employed by US Army counter intelligence and is a GS-15 and has had a number of sensitive assignments including Delta Force. This is no political groupie, this woman is a pro. We happen to know a great deal about her outfit and how they operate. It could be this is a diversionary piece of disinformation to take the public's attention off of the failure of the world financial system. This scandal would consume the media as international finance tries to figure out what to do next to deep the system afloat.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:33 - ID#28585)
One of the most disturbing aspects of trading Kinross on the NYSE has been its very low liquidity. It rarely trades more than 50,00 shares a day.

The Kinross-Amax combo will significantly raise its liquidity, therefore it should engender greater institutional/fund interest.

Finally, with Cyprus Amax in the picture, there is still a much greater possibility of yet another bigger merger if Cyprus decides to sell its sizable Kinross interest to another major producer.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:37 - ID#227238)
Ziva @17:15, 18:04, 18:14: Darlin'. We take you at your word that you're a matron and grandmother. ..... That being the case; why in hell is PMS still a problem?

Why take it out on us? You have a husband, who has a traveling secretary. Take it out on them. That's what they're there for.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:38 - ID#242258)
Listen, man or woman or whoever you are.

Ziva admitted that she got half brain.

Are you from the same category?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:40 - ID#255190)
It seems to me that, yes, 'professionals' are escewing ( at least publicly ) gold. They don't make any money from you going to a metals house and buying a bag of gold or silver. Their bread and butter is paper. After reading a few things about the shenannagens these people are involved in I am interested in what they have to say and how they say it as a means of peeking inside their heads, so to speak. I don't take it at face value in the least bit.

If you had money, real money, and you thought a market was going up in a big way would YOU run around telling everyone you knew? Or would you buy steadily and quietly until you were set perfectly and then start talking about it? These people are not stupid ( not as dense as I am most of the time ) . When they TELL you there is a good deal it is too late. And my bet would be that the ignorant public is the 'greater fool' they are trying to get to float their boat up and up. Nice.

My sense is that the herding of the public to invest one way or another marks the top of markets. Its kind of pathetic, really.

What minor alteration in the flow of fiat currency would it take to blast the PM markets into outer space??? A very small amount indeed. The bond and money markets are huge in relation to the PM markets. Actually the equities markets are small in relationship to the bond markets as well. So a little bit of trouble, a bit of insecurity and just the tiniest amount of alternative seeking would put an entirely new 'momentum' on the PM markets. A 1% shift into PM's would profoundly alter many professionals' perspective on what is suitable as an asset.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:41 - ID#255190)
It seems to me that, yes, 'professionals' are escewing ( at least publicly ) gold. They don't make any money from you going to a metals house and buying a bag of gold or silver. Their bread and butter is paper. After reading a few things about the shenannagens these people are involved in I am interested in what they have to say and how they say it as a means of peeking inside their heads, so to speak. I don't take it at face value in the least bit.

If you had money, real money, and you thought a market was going up in a big way would YOU run around telling everyone you knew? Or would you buy steadily and quietly until you were set perfectly and then start talking about it? These people are not stupid ( not as dense as I am most of the time ) . When they TELL you there is a good deal it is too late. And my bet would be that the ignorant public is the 'greater fool' they are trying to get to float their boat up and up. Nice.

My sense is that the herding of the public to invest one way or another marks the top of markets. Its kind of pathetic, really.

What minor alteration in the flow of fiat currency would it take to blast the PM markets into outer space??? A very small amount indeed. The bond and money markets are huge in relation to the PM markets. Actually the equities markets are small in relationship to the bond markets as well. So a little bit of trouble, a bit of insecurity and just the tiniest amount of alternative seeking would put an entirely new 'momentum' on the PM markets. A 1% shift into PM's would profoundly alter many professionals' perspective on what is suitable as an asset.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:41 - ID#403159)
Hurry.... rush gold to the recovery room.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:46 - ID#330175)
Poorboys @ Lake Simecoe
Hey bro,incase ya missed my post,thankx for the Looney Tunes predictions but when I awoke this mornin and saw Lucifer Bouchard ( racist bastard ) spouting his standard line of crap on the front page of the Globe+Mail,I decided to pull the trigger on 50% of my loonies...and by-the-way----am really not movin back to 'mainstream amerika' but am movin back to 'the country' from suburbia ( Cape Breton style ) ....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:46 - ID#28594)
JTF--Dollar/Derivatives/and whose running futures....
Dollar/Derivatives/and whose running futures....

There were only TWO examples of two people being selected from the same organization on WEF/Global Leaders for tomorrow; one was expected, the other was rather a shock.

The expected--Gates and another MS minion.

The shock--two gentlemen from the Peoples Republic of China the President and the Chairman of China International Futures Ltd.. Oh my, oh my.

From Asia also--Global Leader for Tomorrow...James T. Riady, Deputy Chairman of the Riady Group. Isnt THAT interesting?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:48 - ID#330175)
ALLEN .............+ DOW 10,000

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:49 - ID#330175)
Good post!! Go gold+ Israel!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:49 - ID#431263)
Fraulein Ziva--

Your pious breast-beating and black-slapping is almost as nauseating as BC's! Get off your pompous soapbox and listen to one who has monitored and contributed to this site long before you declared yourself to be queen of Kitco--most of what you have presented to us here at Kitco is stuff that has been debated and reported by others more qualified than you aeons ago! War, aliens, ufo's, biologicals, chemicals, nuclear weapons, remote viewing, astrology, psycho-kinesis, mental telepathy, TLC , NSA, Fema, Bilderbergers, Club of Rome, Freemasonry, Skull and Bones, Art Bell, communism, fascism, socialism, science, black science, religion, philosophy et al--you name it, we've debated it LONG BEFORE YOU AND YOUR ILK BEGAN TO POUND YOUR CHEST AND PONTIFICATE ABOUT HOW WISE AND IMPORTANT AND KNOWLEDGEABLE YOU ARE COMPARED TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS HALLOWED SITE! Get REAL, ZIVA! You're just a tired old bag of flesh that has read a few off-the-wall websites that struck your fancy and convinced you that with your new-found vision you could save the world and exert power over those here on Kitco less-enlightened than yourself and in the process become the queen-bee of Kitco! There's a name for your malady--it's called DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR! If you are queen of anything it is THAT! My advice--by some gold and see a shrink!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:52 - ID#342376)
never mind all the facts and figures.....take a look where the world is headed
I have read all the articles I can find on investments, from eliot wave theories, to 4 year cycles, 50 year cycles, who wins the superbowl, years that end in 8 or 5 ( good years for the DOW ) , planetary alignments and a zillion others. One thing is certain, the world will get crazier as we approch the year 2000. The bull market will end soon and at most has a few months left. The fundamental shift that will begin to occur soon is that up till now in the 20th century, people have percieved their point in time as a movenent from the past till this moment. The reference point being the past. As 2000 approaches, the refernece point will become the future, namely the year 2000. In other words we will think of ourselves as going to as opposed to leaving from. Millenial points have a history of mass hysteria and that will only be multiplied many factors in this century as opposed to the last one because the technology exists to destroy human life in many differnet ways. All this instability in my opinion can only lead to price of gold moving up and up. Doesn't gold have a history of higher prices during instability? We ain't seen nothing like the instability that's coming. Then add in the Y2K problem. I can't help but laugh at all the Apocalyptic Predictions and think they may come true because of a computer glitch. You gotta laugh somtimes....even if it does hurt.

The Hatt
(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:53 - ID#294232)
Selby Soros Info at
Go to daily quotes and thank god you are a goldbug!

The Hatt
(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:55 - ID#294232)
Heavy Hitter.
Do remember you are watching gold trade by the minute where moves in either direction during trading are much less important than the overall trend, which I might add is UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:55 - ID#28585)
The prognosis for gold has never looked better.

Double digit upswings are imminent.

As the songs says:

"If you're shorting gold in this environment, you're either completely insane or you've got balls of steel"

( you think the preceding refrain has commercial potential in the music field?? ) .

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:58 - ID#368244)
@ Heavy Hitter
Not that it matters , but I feel your pain!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 19:58 - ID#252127)

Guess that I just can't stand bigness, especially when they give me the impression of un-profitability, but you are right; that buying is the ingredient that sends a stocks price up.
My interests are in the small producers like this one:
Buy small and hope big

The Hatt
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:01 - ID#294232)
Farfel at this point in time there is only one thing left to do!

Steve - Perth
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:02 - ID#284177)
Steves specially edited: NEWS VIA AUSTRALIA

Why Howard backs Clinton

Early shock wave hits Australia

Defence Minister warns of poisoned waterholes


China almost certain to devalue currency

One Step closer to a Common Asian Currency Bloc

The poor are growing restless at Davos

Chinese Devaluation by August? Chinese Exporters hurting

Moodys Downgrades Industrial Bank of Japan

Dont Kiss your money goodbye on the Web!

Target Iraq

Will Australia become a Banana Republic?

Indonesia delays price rises as fuel riot erupts

Luxury goods to feel Asian pinch

The wine explosion

Reports of the end of Asia's crisis are greatly exaggerated

The brainwashed return from Davos

Richard "Mad Dog" Butlers Power Play

The next Industrial Revolution - Post Kyoto

Deflation is not on?

Car Makers in Asian Double Trouble

Russian Nickel & Platinum supplies greater than expected

Asian Crisis starts the year of living dangerously

WAs Millionaires secret Golden Triangle

Greenspan ensures high future money supply

Australias Constitutional Convention Home Page - Live
( Aussies blowing A$40 Million to stuff up a perfectly good system )

Russia warns US of starting the next World War

Wool industry rocked as exports to Asia dry up

Russia & Brazil on short list

Japan constructs $72B in bonds

Soros's right-hand man earns his wagers

Israelis promised biological weapon vaccines, while they head for the gas masks

Costly lure of Globalisation - Setting the Scene for a Yen bloc

BOOKMARK Steves News Page:
( Courtesy of Colin Seymour )

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:02 - ID#403159)
USAGOLD site is old news from last week.
RE: Soros and Buffett. The gold is still
just a rumor.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:03 - ID#270236)
Some questions: ( 1 ) If S.A. nationalizes the mines how are they going
to pay the subsidy costs to keep them open? ( 2 ) What effect would such
a move have on foreign investment in S.A.? ( 3 ) What effect would this
have on S.A.'s ability to service its dollar-denominated foreign debt?
( 4 ) If this is such an imminent probability, why didn't the price of
gold go up more today? ( 5 ) Why didn't the price of the N.A. low-cost
mines do better today? ( 6 ) Why did the S.A. mines go up today?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:05 - ID#252127)
farfel; either its my eyes, my brain or this damn keyboard

Guess that I just can't stand bigness, especially when
they give me the impression of un-profitability, but you
are right; that buying is the ingredient that sends a
stocks price up.
My interests are in the small producers like this one:
Buy small and hope big

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:07 - ID#28585)
Consolidation will spur the XAU to greater heights. BIGNESS is the only salvation for the AU industry, namely a clearly recognized, de facto gold cartel.

There should be no more than 3 major gold companies on the NYSE. The rest of the golds should either be absorbed or disappear completely.

The Kinross-Amax merger should be an impetus to more bets are that TVX and RYO are next ones to go.

In the silver arena, I expect to see a consolidation pattern take hold as well. The only question is "when??"

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:07 - ID#255190)
Barb or anyone else ..

I'm interested in starting a little collection of failed paper currencies. Brazillian Real, Mexican Peso, Turkish and Italian Lira, Russian Rouble, US Continental, even possibly Canadian 'tire money' ( though that's a bit big for my format. BTW, Ted, that is just about THE funniest thing I've read on this site in months. Leave it to you, bud. )

What I'm wanting to do is make a nice, little presentation 'scrap book' like a photo album with nice mattes and a little right up on each currency and how it was debased, etc. Then at the end have a gold coin and a little blurb desribing its inherent stability ( vis a vis US $ ) etc.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:11 - ID#403159)
Don't tell me, you too are up to your eyeballs
in PM's. Is this true? So I'm not alone.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:13 - ID#403159)
Don't tell me, you too are up to your eyeballs
in PM's. Is this true? So I'm not alone.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:13 - ID#429245)
Profiting from war
Preacher: 19:01. Your point is well taken that there is a big difference between planning a slaughter to improve your investments and just going along for the ride.

I havent suggested that you should feel guilty about profiting from the war the USA is planning. I dont feel guilty myself.

But dont you think that by being educated enough to realize, and act on the economic consequences, you might also be moved to express outrage over the madness that you also probably see? And perhaps to act against it in some way?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:14 - ID#255190)
Ted, I'm warnin' ya!
Every time you say "DOW ..,..., well ya know, then I just get all sweaty thinking I might have MISSED making a fortune if I hadn't a been sucked into this site, etc. So just STOP IT! ARRRRGGGHHHHH! ( sweat, sweat, sweat, ... )

See previous post to Barb, note to you there.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:15 - ID#250165)
Ziva... Queen of Kitco...Keep the truth flowing
I have been following the forum regularly and have posted occasionally.
Wake up all u intelligent must know by now that the
price of all PMs are being manipulated by the big boys from all
the various "clubs". And these "clubs" are also endengaring the
lifes of all the American boys in the Gulf. How many more have to
be sacrificed many more orphans and widows do u need be it
in America ,Iraq or elsewhere. The same blood that flows in us is
flowing thro the Iraqis n Arabs that u are quick to crictise.
All because we let these "Big Boys Clubs " manipulate your thinking.

The US clearly has the military power to further devastate Iraq
and whoever else they want. With Iraq this will be grossly unjust
and exceedingly hypocrictical which will lead to tremendous negative

The events in Middle -east today have been caused by policys of
the West carving up the region after the World War 1 n 2. If we
allow trigger happy Clinton n Cohen to strike World War 3 it will
end civilisation and global business as we know it today.

Do not let this happen to us. Pls visit the foll website.


(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:16 - ID#250165)
Ziva... Queen of Kitco...Keep the truth flowing
I have been following the forum regularly and have posted occasionally.
Wake up all u intelligent must know by now that the
price of all PMs are being manipulated by the big boys from all
the various "clubs". And these "clubs" are also endengaring the
lifes of all the American boys in the Gulf. How many more have to
be sacrificed many more orphans and widows do u need be it
in America ,Iraq or elsewhere. The same blood that flows in us is
flowing thro the Iraqis n Arabs that u are quick to crictise.
All because we let these "Big Boys Clubs " manipulate your thinking.

The US clearly has the military power to further devastate Iraq
and whoever else they want. With Iraq this will be grossly unjust
and exceedingly hypocrictical which will lead to tremendous negative

The events in Middle -east today have been caused by policys of
the West carving up the region after the World War 1 n 2. If we
allow trigger happy Clinton n Cohen to strike World War 3 it will
end civilisation and global business as we know it today.

Do not let this happen to us. Pls visit the foll website.


Aysha - Queen of Asia

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:18 - ID#411149)
Heavy Hitter- You ain't alone! More company.

Tally Ho

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:20 - ID#206358)
ZIVA!You know better than me..right?!

Thanks for the site which you introduced to me recently,Red alert news.

Actually,i found that most of the news/infos you and some friends about ASIA are faster and more accurate than me.JTF,ALLEN,STEVE,SHAREFIN both are among the best.
So far i felt the tensions already built up long time in INDONESIA.And the countries'ministers just running around between them to looked for the solutions.Difficult tasks!We all neighbourhood citizens can't do nothing,JUST WAIT AND SEE!Since indonesia is a huge popullations country.And since most of the countries,including mal,sin,thai have tons of the illegal immigrants,even with this still created many sosial,economy and conflicts in each country!Deep down my mind,whether or not the revolution occured,the crisis will exploded sooner or later. ( hope i am wrong )
This week saw a bit stability currencies,stocks markets around here!Many experts saw the crisis still burning down the mattress,especially INDONESIA,watch out!once this HAPPENED,the 'TITANIC OF south east asia"will dragged down together!!
This morning 10/feb saw the forex tensions building up again!oh..have to start buy more BARS again!

happy trading and feel free to e mail me more update news!

JIN ( )

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:30 - ID#403159)
May I quote ANOTHER. All the paper gains
over the last 20 years will be reversed and
gold will be revalued. This only has to
happen once in one's lifetime. Welcome

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:31 - ID#57232)
Take Care!
Jin: Please be careful! If you do not blend into the crowd, they can turn on you very quickly! I was surprised to see that about 3% of all Indonesians are Oriental, and that they hold nearly 80% of the wealth ( I guess -- mostly smaller businesses ) . Am I right that there are 6 million Orientals in Indonesia? There is no way the US Navy ,and the Australians could evacuate that many quickly.

Any comments about Chinese devaluation, or Japanese bank reform? What we hear about China is that 25% devaluaation is imminent. My guess about Japan is that real banking reform has not started, and it is costing Japan over 25 billion $US/day until the problem is fixed.

Hope all of you are safe and sound with good hiding places.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:35 - ID#403159)
You didn't. Not you too Ray
WOW. How do you
sleep at night?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:47 - ID#227290)
GW & War
There was once a great Southern boy with your same initials -- George Washington. Are you two related?
I agree with you that we should do what we can to prevent war or any unnecessary bloodshed.
In the present case, I have stated that the US is clearly the aggressor. My Congressman is Newt Gingrich; I guess I could write to him. Haven't done it yet. Maybe I will.

I don't want to wax theological. Yet what's happened in Asia and what's now happening in the Middle East,, and what is yet to happen in America and Europe -- economically -- has been a nightmare to all the Libertarian newsletter writers like Blanchard, Casey, Bishop, Day, etc.
They labor under the illusion that man is basically good and that once government oppression in the form of Communism had gotten off the world's collective back, this basically good mankind could now get on with the business of building a beautiful, democratic, free-market, Libertarian world.
Things looked pretty good for them until about six months ago. It's been all downhill since then. And from the looks of it, there's more to come.

The world will not become one happy community just because Communism fell. No. regional tryranny has sprung up throughout the globe -- not just in the ME. Asia has its tyrants. Africa has its tyrants too. ( Saw a large article yesterday about the thriving slave trade in Sudan and Chad. ) South America will expropriate American and Canadian assets once the heat gets turned on really high, like they've done in the past. And South Africa, well it's just a matter of time before it dies like the rest of Africa.

Sorry to have such a negative outlook on the short-to-medium turn. But I invest racially and religiously. I want my money where the people are European and the Bible gets read regularly. Those places have a history of honoring contract law, which is more than you can say for Asia, the ME, the former Soviet Union, Africa, South America, etc.

That wasn't on the subject, exactly. Let's just call it a freebie.

The Preacher

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:50 - ID#287207)
Go to daily quotes and thank god you are a goldbug!
The HATT: Whose daily quotes? can you give me the URL?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:51 - ID#347457)
Oh well, things did not change, it's getting even worse
Oh well, I thought that I check how are things on Kitco...
Never mind . it's getting worse, now. Ziva ( self proclaimed queen of Kitco ) claiming she brought you all ( kids?! ) kicking and screaming to her source of knowledge and that it's all UFO fault. Just to be sure that we read her she post that nonsense twice. She sure thinks that she runs some intelligence center ( alla ... Jin, please report to us. BTW Jin, you screwed up. She did not ask you to report on financial markets, only on the unrest in your part which will lead to WWIII )

Now we have Aysha ( queen of Asia ) asking me to read some site with strong arab propaganda.

Oh well, outa here again. There is work to be done and money to be made ( but for sure not from reading this nonsense )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:52 - ID#431263)
Possible reasons for ME WAR NOW!
Just a thought--

Could this war be staged by the wise men behind the scenes to ratchet up the price of gold now that they have hoarded all they can handle at prices below the cost of 50% of the world's production? Or could this be the payoff the Saudi's are now demanding to "make up" for the ridiculously low oil prices they have had to endure to keep the US economy from imploding and keep BC in office? Perhaps BC's sexual and political scandals have finally caught up to him and the Saudi's are worried that the dollar price of oil is now threatened so that a higher price for gold is now required to keep the game alive? Methinks the latter!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:56 - ID#22451)




(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:56 - ID#330175) sorry--------'it' just slipped out again...................................DOW
P.S. On Globex, Canadian Tire currency just replaced the loonie~~~~DEATH to Bouchard!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 20:56 - ID#317193)
All true prophets were persecuted by government leaders and followed by the masses-then eliminated by the government. It appears to me that you are fortunate that the masses @ Kitco are not following your lead. Perhaps you could contemplate this , in silence, for a short period of time. Your concerns are no doubt real in your mind, however, the masses cannot be force to follow nor the government forced to persecute one who is not a phophet. A post of any kind, from you, evidencing humor, in any form, would be most appreciated. Life is without purpose without JOY and LOVE. Please be so kind as to help give my life purpose with some, if not all, of your future posts. Smile-laugh-ENJOY life. Thank you for thoughts. Tom

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:00 - ID#22451)
Wow, we must have been on the same wavelength. Thats scary.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:00 - ID#330175)
Pretty sad state of

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:00 - ID#284255)
More email chatter
Euromeisters have admitted for the first time that European favor the Euro only by 44%, we are positive the figure is much lower than that.
What will Europe do as the US heads into deflation and recession?
How will different countries act? In unison with Europe or will they drop out and destroy the structure? They'll drop out of course. Once national currencies are destroyed there is no way back. A US recession throws everything out the window. Citizens futures are being handed to un-elected bureaucrats. Between them and the ECB there is little accountability. The Euro will be a disastrous failure.
At a secret pre-xmas meeting in the United Arab Emirates, French President Chirac pledged a brigade force of 85,000 troups, 30 aircraft, and air craft carrier to be dispatched to the Gulf in an emergency from Djibouti. France is intent on challenging the US position in the region in order to sell more arms in the area.
If Hong Kong is to stay on a dollar peg, then their stock market and property will have to take a big hit. Property prices in Asia won't recover for a generation. Japan is headed into a depression. The de-leveraging will create a 1930's style debt destruction.
Hong Kong's removal of the dollar peg will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. A 40% drop in the Hong Kong dollar will trigger a new wave to devaluations and debt moratorium. The bankers realize that if their attempt to buy votes in Congress is unsuccessful, as it probably will be, another alternative must be found.
That alternative is a new Bretton Woods type accord and a return to a gold exchange standard ( not a gold standard ) . A gold exchange standard allows anyone to exchange dollars for gold or gold certificates. You will see a move in this direction soon, as gold is miraculously rediscovered, as an anchor to the dollar, giving it convertibility and thereby stopping a flood of dollar conversion. Essentially US gold holdings are about to save the dollar and the world financial system.
The question is where will the dollar be convertible? It is hard to say. This is of course the last thing the New World Order wants, but their perverse greed has driven them to reaccepting gold again as the monetary master. The only problem we foresee is for the US Gov't. is that if they don't have the gold they say they have, all hell will break loose and gold will climb to stratospheric heights.
Japan will definitely be borced to repatriate it's capital and that will spell the end of the world financial system as we've known it. This has started already as the Saudi gov't oil company has refused to accept guarantees from a majority of Japanese banks questioning their solvency.
George Soros triggered the debacle making billions of dollars in the process, he then came back after the debts had been guaranteed and is making billions again on the long side. This is particularily disturbing when the US is said to be supplying the $30 of the $75 billion. We hope congress is listening. Why is Robert Rubin involved, when the venue is that of the Fed? Is it because they are illegally propping up the stock market?
If corporate earnings are going to be flat, as we have predicted for 1998, then momentum for stocks will have been broken.
M-2 continues to reescalate at a horrendous pace leading us to believe the Fed is lying about foreign sales of treasuries which the Fed is monetizing.
A nasty fight looms over IMF funding in Congress. As we said last month, if the mercantilists want it passed the price will probably be $3-$5 million for each senator and congressman whose vote they need to get passage. We figure it will cost about $400 million, a mere drop in the bucket for the mega-rich transnationals. Oh, the excuse your elected representatives will give you for having voted to throw your money away will be that national security demanded it. And of course PIGS FLY.
If Canada does not raise interest rates 1% the dollar could trade to 62 cents. It has already hit the lowest level of 69 cents and the Bank of Canada is in no rush to raise rates.
Royal Bank and Bank of Montreal are merging. This could be a forced marriage caused by potential claims from the Bre-x disaster.
He said that he has heard this many times on Chuck Harder radio program that he listens to. US sold biological weapons to Iraq. This was done during the Reagan, Bush administration. At that time Iraq was at war with Iran and they used them during that war. The US is now afraid that they will use it on the people who gave it to them. Chuck Harder also says that the detention camps have already been built and that they are being spotted from airliners. These are big camps and have been wondering what these are going to be used for. Why would they build them if they did not intend on using them. Black helicopters- he has been mentioning these also and they are very real.
International Forcaster ( Bob Chapman ) The boomers give Clinton a 54% approval rating, but WHY? It is because America and the world has a degeration disease called mass psychosis. The existentailist counter-culture born int eh 1960's represents the terminal phase of a centruy of mercantalism and culture distortion. The boomers are a retrograde abberation in the degenerative process having a lemming like quality, which essentially makes them shock proof. Witness the murder of Princess Diana, who has reached deity status, and the virtually forgotten Mother Theresa. Diana representing the world fantasy, an escapee from the lame counter-culture, and Mother Theresa, the beauty of morality and mankind. This is why the boomers identify with the Clintons. In their emptiness there is nothing else.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:00 - ID#255190)
You've got a spider in the wood pile.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:07 - ID#93232)
Your 17:42 was real cool.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:11 - ID#252357)
Silent Sadam
All: Pardon my ignorance, but why is Sadam so quiet? Why don't we see him
being interviewed by CNN playing the poor "little guy" trying to gain world sympathy? How did he act before the Gulf War? Was he quiet like this?

I believe he has many counter-attack plans ready, but he still could be going on world-wide tv to try to explain his position. Yes, I know he doesn't have to, but as insane as he is, why aren't we hearing directly from him?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:15 - ID#340459)
Sharefin, liked your post #284255

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:16 - ID#431263)
Herr Pete--

Watch out or someone might accuse us of remote viewing, eh Ziva?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:17 - ID#255190)
@H.Hitter, Ted and JIN & Good Night
HHeavy - Its a joke between Ted and me about that DOW ..,... thing .. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!! He knows its just toasts my cookies every time he 'predicts that 10K number. ( spit, sputter, yuk! ) ;- )

Ted - you sadist you. Revenue Canada is what you deserve! Hope you make it back to the US before they BLEED ya ta death, man.

JIN - you are the gold one here. Thanks. I'm going out right now to burn my mattress. Great idea. If enough of us do it I think Gold will go up alot faster, no???

Night all.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:26 - ID#252127)
Does it make sense?

That our BUBBAMENT is concentrating five Carrier Groups in the Persian Gulf, or maybe the
dirty ol'boys up to something, like more lies?
How many carrier groups do we have? Six,seven?
The gold price hit its high because of worry that Russia would block the Straigts of Hormitz in the early eighties. Now we put our Navy into the Gulf for target practice - but they may be the floating targets, that can get out.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:26 - ID#403159)
So you were fully invested in the DOW
last several years. When do you plan
on taking your profits and get fully invested
in the PM's?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:26 - ID#93232)
Saddam Says...Show me Monica......
Saddam has said he'll allow the inspectors to ramsack all his palaces if Bill will send him Monica Lewinsky for one weekend...Clinton says he won't consider it..he's being real hard-headed about it. Looks like we're caught between a rock and a hard spot.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:28 - ID#403159)
So you were fully invested in the DOW
last several years. When do you plan
on taking your profits and get fully invested
in the PM's? Rolling back 20 years of gains
is like having corn flakes without the milk.

Lurker 777
(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:32 - ID#317247)
Warning: Pro-Gold propaganda for depressed Goldbugs only! LONG POST
By Steven Jon Kaplan
Monday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a very light 11,000 lots. Total COMEX gold open interest on Friday rose 455 to 166,437 lots, indicating that commercials are tentatively buying each time gold drops below $300 spot. Total COMEX silver open interest on Friday climbed 2,187 to 110,897, its highest level since August 1996, indicating that speculators are piling on the long side at the highs in what may prove to be a classic blowoff top. In my opinion, investors would be safer in the intermediate term going long gold or platinum instead of silver. COMEX gold warehouse stocks were unchanged at 428,613 ounces, while COMEX silver warehouse stocks dropped sharply by 2,163,505 ounces to a new 12-1/2 year low of 98,528,728 ounces. Though the decline in silver warehouse stocks has been much trumpeted by the media, the drop in percentage terms of gold warehouse stocks has been even more dramatic, plunging more than 77% from 1.9 million ounces during gold's last peak in February 1996.
Gold Watch, Veneroso Associates - December 12, 1997
Gold is the ultimate reserve asset. It is the only monetary asset that has survived throughout history. The debt issues of all sovereigns eventually undergo some significant debasement or default. It is perfectly consistent for France and Germany to hold a high percentage of gold in the reserves they will continue to hold at their individual country central bank level.

Reuters - December 12, 1997
The Swiss National Bank ( SNB ) "We do not intend to reduce our gold stocks quickly. We are convinced that gold will continue to play a role as a currency reserve, especially in times of crisis," Roth said gold was also important to the public as a symbol of stability and security. "We therefore intend to continue to maintain significant gold reserves," he said. "Those who expect massive gold sales from us will be disappointed," Roth said.

Freemarket Gold and Money Report, James Turk - December 12, 1997
"Gold has a 2,500-year history. We cant be so presumptuous to think that [its] monetary history will end in our lifetime."
The unique aspects of gold that made it money in the first place have not changed. Gold is the only money that is not someone elses liability, so to accept the notion that golds monetary role has changed, you must first conclude that no one will ever again want to use -- or perhaps ever again need -- a money that is not contingent upon someone elses promise.
I dont buy that premise about money for one simple reason. Sometimes IOUs go bad. Therefore, when a monetary system is built upon credit -- and all national currencies today share this common trait -- eventually the quality of those currencies will be doubted. For example, look at what is happening now to the Korean won. Bad debts have decimated that countrys banking system, and its currency has collapsed as a result.
Right now no one is thinking about the nature of the dollar. No one remembers the banking collapses of the past -- even the relatively contained mid-1980s savings & loan crisis pushed gold to over $500 per ounce. But just because no one is concerned about the dollar at the moment, there is no logical reason to conclude that Americans, Europeans and others will not once again highly value gold. Think about all the Koreans who are now learning the lesson that it was not too prudent to believe the upbeat pronouncements from their leaders and central bankers. Yes, the Koreans could have bought dollars instead of gold and perhaps been happy with their decision, but what happens when the dollar is again in trouble?
In my view, gold still fulfills an important monetary purpose -- it still has a role to play. It has served this monetary role for thousands of years, and it will do so for many years to come.
When asked to comment about golds new low price and dire position at the market, I said: "Things do move in cycles. When everybody is bearish -- which is the case at the moment -- its typically the end of the cycle." Thats where I think we are at the moment -- very close to, or at the bottom. Moreover, we are at this low price for unusual reasons. It is not that gold no longer has a monetary role, but rather, there has been considerable central bank dishoarding.
Gold Newsletter - James U. Blanchard III - December 13 1997
The fact is that the major voting members of the European Monetary Union, Germany, France and Italy, will oppose any reserve formula which does not include a significant role for gold.
Also, the individual countries ( apart from the EMU central bank ) will continue to hold large reserves, and significant changes in these reserves, including gold, will have to be approved by the European Central Bank. In other words, any individual central bank would have to get the approval of the ECB to sell or lend gold. This will mean an end to the major EMU-related selling and lending of official gold to the market.
Lets face it. Germany, France, Italy and the rest of the participants in the European Monetary Union will want the ECB to have the confidence of the world financial community and gold will be a key confidence-building factor. Dont under-estimate the tremendous psychological impact of gold on the electorate and European investors.

Editorial by David Gulley, Senior Economist, Price Waterhouse
In the long run, as classical economists like David Ricardo foresaw, the fact that gold supply cannot keep pace with economic growth might mean that you shouldnt bet against gold. But, even if you believe that gold will become "just a commodity" you should be advised that most commodities have kept their historical purchasing power -- and then some.

Reuters - December 25, 1997
The Russian central banks gold and hard currency reserves have grown, recovering from losses suffered in recent financial turmoil, the banks chairman said on Thursday, putting gold reserves at about 500 tonnes.
"The dynamics are positive, " Sergei Dubinin said in an interview to Ekho Moskvy radio. We did not sell gold, we just accumulated it. Currently we have about 500 tonnes of gold."

The Northern Miner - December 29, 1997-January 4, 1998
Demand for gold bars and bullion coins among private investors has increased sharply in light of low gold prices, according to a report by CPM Group of New York, NY.
Investors in gold were most active in North America, the Middle East, Western Europe, China and India in October, 1997, when equity markets around the world and currency markets in Asia came under selling pressure. Bullion purchasing increased in November and December as the price of gold dropped to its lowest point in 12 years.
In the United States, sales of the Eagle gold coin in November 1997 topped 84,000 oz., up 282% over the 22,000 oz. sold in the same period of 1996. To date in 1997, sales of the coin totaled 621,750 oz., up 205% from the 204,000 oz. sold in the first 11 months of 1996.
Net private investment demand in 1997 is currently projected at 9.3 million oz., up 129.2% from 4.1 million oz. in 1996. Bullion investment forecasts for 1998 are as high as 12.4 million oz. According to the report, increased private investor buying in 1997 may be the start of the reversal of the gold market.
CPM says that gold prices may rise as a result of increased buying by investors seeking to diversity their portfolios and take advantage of low prices. The largest buyers of gold bullion are reported to be small North American and European investors and larger investors in Southeast Asia, China and the Middle East. Bullion dealers in Europe and the United States have reported smaller supplies of gold bars as a result of increased demand.

Reuters - January 2, 1998
Indias gold consumption is expected to rise sharply to about 700 tonnes in 1998 from 500 tonnes in 1997, a senior official of the state-run Minerals and Metals Trading Corp. ( MMTC ) said on Friday.
"We feel that the demand may go up to 700 tonnes in 1998," a senior MMTC official, who asked not to be identified, told Reuters. "This estimate is on the conservative side." India consumed 500 tonnes of gold in 1997, he said.
"There has been a sudden spurt in gold demand in the country in the last two months," the official said. "This trend will continue. Gold consumption will rise in all sectors -- urban, semi-urban and rural.

Reuters - January 8, 1998
World gold demand rose 16 percent year-on-year in 1997 as falling prices spurred greater production in jewelry, electronics and coin-making, industry analyst Gold Fields Mineral Services said on Thursday. Total demand rose to 4,025 tonnes, according to GFMS estimates, up from the 3,477 tonnes of 1996.
Increased gold demand during 1997 came mainly from jewelry makers in India, the Middle East and Europe, who stepped up production by 15 percent to take 3,219 tonnes.
Forbes - January 12, 1998
by John Brimelow, Director of International Equities, Donald & Co.
Research by my friend and client Frank Veneroso, of Portsmouth, NH-based Veneroso Associates, underlines the improbability of such continued selling pressure. Veneroso believes that central bank lending of gold already exceeds 8,000 tons -- 25% of all central bank holdings. He thinks virtually all of this gold has been absorbed into jewelry and is therefore not now available to repay these loans. Central Bank mobilization has gone much further, faster, than widely realized. As understanding of this spreads, Central Bank behavior is likely to become more measured.
Fearing diminished selling, professional gold bears are alleging that Asian demand for gold is collapsing because of the currency crisis. Actually, the main Asian buyers, China and India, are not affected. China has not devalued and is reflating. A slight Indian devaluation is more than offset by the recent abolition of gold import barriers. And Japans banking crisis has triggered strong gold-buying by the public -- which I think is likely in the aggregate to offset Southeast Asian weakness.
Recent data, in fact, indicate physical gold demand in the East and even in America is surging.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:32 - ID#238422)
John Disney
My brother John,

Look at Steve 20:02 - "Russian Nickel and Platinum..."

Did I tell you, brother, about two sets of books?

Anyway, during the existance of the U.S.S.R. they
produced so much platinum, that I think it was valued
less than gold at that time...

State strategic reserves
are still practically untouched, and these reserves
are still very considerable. I do not have exact numbers,
but my guess is that they got at least 8-12 mln. ounces
in just state strategic reserve, but it could be much more.

Norilsk, as you can see now,
was dumping metal all the time, and will be dumping more in
the nearest future. Norilsk probably has its own reserves
also...A couple of other "big guys" have their own stockpile..

Japanese will be cheated as usual.., they are good in
drinking sake but not good in drinking vodka.

Finally those naive folks from the West discovered 25% of
truth. They will discover another 25% in a couple of years...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:37 - ID#225127)
watch out Bill
Hillary has disguised Elena Bobbet and hired her as a surprise intern for Bill.

Lurker 777
(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:39 - ID#317247)
I apologize for the long post.
I had no idea it would take up that much space.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:39 - ID#286199)
Calm down Jack
The U.S. has two Carrier Battle groups in the Gulf area. The Nimitz is coming off station after a very long tour. For more details see this site:

This site also has links to Iraqi arms.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:40 - ID#286199)
Ships and stuff

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:40 - ID#238422)
John Disney
My brother John,

Look at Steve 20:02 - "Russian Nickel and Platinum..."

Did I tell you, brother, about two sets of books?

Poor Japanese guys will be cheated as usual.., they
are good in drinking sake but not good in drinking vodka.

Ziva changed from Ziva to Aysha, but still is working
for Iraqies. What a mess! I think I was initially right
about Ziva...Death to spies and provocators!!!

Long live Russian blond chicks!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:41 - ID#434137)
If all this mess is over oil as a fuel soruce. the why not give the
world the cleanest easiest fueal source the is. Water. If H + H + O = H2O
then burning this produces water? which in turn would become fuel again thru electrolysis right? i wonder how advanced this really is? I dont know, maybe i dont know but its just a thought or would a government even let a technology like this come out? Or i should say "the powers that be" right Ziva? hehe but anyway new technologies would probly alter world economy greatly. and i thkn many beleive things are fine as they are.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:48 - ID#238422)
Algae\Why Saddam is not talking directly?
He does not need to do it, he got "Zivas"...

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:52 - ID#373403)
They already have water torches which break down the oxtgen and hydrogen into separate components for oxy-hydrogen torches. Fire from water, pretty cool huh?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 21:55 - ID#372344)
@ DEJ ...DEEP South African Questions.....
Answers: 1. Print , bad for foreingn investments....
2.Much lower Rand, thus Inflation.....
3. Obvious....
5. see 4...
4. Before responding, I wanted to give my personal hope, and that is
that the following does not occur for SA sake and it's peoples...
But the reality is as I have been suggesting here for months now,
that a fundamental change is coming to SA, the coalition Gov. of Mandela with the Whites is coming to an end, new elections happen
next year, and the "people" who voted ANC have had it with the very
slow pace of change to "black" ownership etc....They were all promised
houses, electricity etc....60% of balcks in SA are under 20 years.....
where are the jobs etc? Thousands of students marched the other day in Joberg demanding an end to the subsidies for"White" only education etc....Also The Mining Unions are very powerful politically with
the ANC and so I these proposed changes to the mining rights is
not a coincidence, blacks want to run Gold mines...JCI ( Black )
was "forced" into selling, at tleast that is the perception...Mandela et al ANC are really communist/socialist.....
Another "white" manouvre.....I believe that is the reason some of these mines are down 80% or more, and some are out of business, mergers,
1 for 5's etc...I posted last month about a secret "kitty" Gold sold for cash that these mines used to stay alive last year, that has run out
apperantly...I could go on but can go back and read my previous posts
last month ( if you wish ) .....AS to the NA mines IF and again IF this
comes about and there are problems, whatever they may be, in getting the Gold some 460 tons to the cash markets, some has already been
sold forward, then I suspect that the POG will be reflectiive of this
development and so will the NA shares...will the NA shares anticipate
this? perhaps....But That USA article is an authoritative analysis of
the Gold Markets, so you don't have to take my word for it......
My questions are as follows why have the CB's who have known about
said problems, not raised POG?
Will they raise POG very soon to avoid said troubles?
If they don't then my suspicion is that"someone" wants that Gold to stay in the GROUND!
Is it the WEST denying Gold to China?
Is the the US denying Gold to Europe and China?
ALL of this IMHV is because SA potential impact on the POG and the value of that Gold, stored in CB's....
Here's a thought what if China was allowed to barter for Gold from SA
and have it's currency backed by some Gold?
Does anyone truly believe that the US and the West would permit it?
Good Luck.....all of course JMHV.......

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:01 - ID#346277)
SHAREFIN, you call this e-mail chatter, well let me comment

you sir, this is the most inspiring post, I'have read in a long

time, your astute observation especially re: international fore

caster it is the most precious nugget I've gleaned from this site.

in a long time. Being in time!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:02 - ID#30116)
It takes more energy to break apart the water molecule than you would get by burning the gases to form the water molecule. A basic problem that the perpetual motion machine folks solved millenia's ago... :- )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:03 - ID#217268)
Let's take TZADEAD's thought that perhaps someone does want gold to stay in the ground. Who would benefit ? Who would lose ? Hmmmmmm.... let's run with this thought for a while. Comments ??????????????????

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:06 - ID#26669)
Why not just post the URL then mention points of interest?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:06 - ID#330175)
Studio.R.................Welcome back from K.C. fellow-----------

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:14 - ID#403159)
For what ever reason, the reason is obvious.
The amount of money made in gold is going
to be tremendous. For those that are not blinded
and have the courage to invest and load up will
be extremely wealthy people.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:14 - ID#339212)

By gold staying in the ground, a more violent price upmove will occur due to short supplies.

Eventually CBs are the beneficiaries.

We may all be wrong thinking that CBs want gold down.
They depressed it in the short term to shut the mines, and they will benefit more in the long term because of shortage.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:16 - ID#225273)
TAZDEAK & South Africa

That's a good post. But be careful, a few weeks ago, without going into such detail, I posted similar sentiments to John Disney and his answer was that I was so stupid I couldn't understand the situation.

There's one more piece of evidence supporting what you say: When gold ran over $415 two years ago, the majority of South African gold stocks did not make a high that surmounted the high of 1993-94. They made a series of lower highs.

This wasn't long after the takover. With two more years behind us now, I think the SA golds will have a lot of trouble attracting much of a following.

As for your China angle, I don't know much about that, if there is anything to know about. I like ANOTHER's explanation of the gold market; that oil and gold have been kept low as long as CBs served as suppliers of the physical metal to big players who wanted to accumulate physical.

Once China and Asia want to go to gold-backed currencies, I doubt the West can or will stop them.

The Preacher

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:19 - ID#403159)
For what ever reason, the reason is obvious.
The amount of money made in gold is going
to be tremendous. For those that are not blinded
and have the courage to invest and load up will
be extremely wealthy people. If something doesn't
break soon the less chance it will happen. If
there is great investor demand right now and
continues for sometime, not all these people
could be right. I will unwind my positions unless
something happens here shortly. We need to be
carefull as all this gold could be going onto the
market. That's why I think we need the next shoe
to drop and soon.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:23 - ID#434137)
well it at least has to be more effcient than oil and such, i mean the only energy your expending is breaking apart the molecule with elctrolysis, im not talking about perpetual motion just more efficient

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:24 - ID#434137)
nahh im wrong, it takes the same amount of energy to break it apart
as it does to put it together, im more interested in this blacklight power guy.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:28 - ID#251268)
Hanging tough,
I really enjoed Realistic's post about market psycology'and I think every day that goes by the Gold market bulls are digging in a little deeper holding on with less fear and more confidence,the way the picture is setting up a lot of people are saying to themselves I've hung in here to long thru to many heartbreaker's to get jumpy now,and anybody getting out is just looking for a better place to get in,the Bear is on the way to the DOW ( see ja ) P.S. the C.B.'s can't sell at this price their own brother would buy it and hide it let alone the nextC.B. GO GOLD !!!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:29 - ID#288337)
My new Phillies
Just sittin here looking at a small stack of new Phillies. Viva Gold!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:30 - ID#286199)
South Africa
A touch of paranoia is in the air...

I just completed a search across the Internet for South African news. After reviewing the headlines for over 200 articles I found that almost all pertained to sports. Cricket, polo, soccer ( SA is bidding for the 2006 world cup ) are all headlines. Only one headline on Mandela and it was about the forthcoming elections. This is not a country about to implode. Durban Deep and Harmony were up today. Yawn. I can't stay up until John Disney offers his witty, on-the-scene rebuttal to Tzadeak et al, but I'll catch up in the morning. Good night....

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:39 - ID#263133)
Russia's Platinum
After reading the post @ 20:02 and Russia's announcement that they have twice the amount of Platinum as estimated by western sources, it makes one wonder, are they really that xxxxxxx stupid to make such an announcement, just as platinum is clawing its way back up? No wonder they are not succeeding at Capitalism. I am still shaking my head. Whither now Platinum? To the dumps. Hell, it's so plentiful, I'm going to use mine as a paperweight.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:41 - ID#411149)
sleep good
Heavy Hitter- I sleep good at night! I am an experienced
entrepreneur, been in busniess a long time, done had the hell scared
out of me. Used to get up at 5AM shakin because I had so much at risk.
Then I learned how to WIN and have been able to stay in the black
ever since. I think owing gold and gold shares is the most prudent
investment a businessman can make! I gave up on government a long time
ago and hope they just leave me alone and I will survive without their help. I sold my business and now act as broker and cousultant.
When I go visit my customers the IRS or some other form of AUTHORITY
just left from harrasing the heck out of them iffin they did not completely shut them down. One time I ran for public office and wondered
why we did not win until I saw the cash pay off. Yep I'm fully invested
in gold and gold shares!!

Tally Ho

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:43 - ID#344308)

ok------for those who have the real need to know......
the direction that things must go..........

a gift......

'kissinger on the couch' by chester ward.......

it's hell to find.........and with good reason.........
read this, and understand.............

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:44 - ID#344308)

ok------for those who have the real need to know......
the direction that things must go..........

a gift......

'kissinger on the couch' by chester ward.......

it's hell to find.........and with good reason.........
read this, and understand.............

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:47 - ID#335190)
korea Labour @ Trade Unions in conflict possible strike. Resignation calls (Leadership sellout)
February 9, 1998

SEOUL, Feb 10 ( Reuters ) - South Korean President Kim Young-sam and president-elect Kim Dae-jung on Tuesday reaffirmed that the "tripartite" agreement on economic restructuring should be implemented successfully, the presidential office said.

"The labour-business-government agreement to overcome the current economic hardship is a symbol of national unity that should remain forever in our history, and should be implemented successfully," the office quoted the two leaders as agreeing.

"Therefore, the agreement should be implemented in support of all the people," the statement said.

The two leaders meet every Tuesday to discuss the government's transition to the president-elect who takes office on February 25.

Their remarks came hours after a militant union umbrella group rejected the tripartite agreement and threatened to strike from Friday unless the pact was renegotiated.

It was unclear whether remarks by the two Kims were made in specific response to the labour group's threats.

Leaders of the 550,000-strong Korea Confederation of Trade Unions participated in negotiating the pact, but members of the confederation now demand their resignation.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 22:56 - ID#31868)
You just keep buying that gold. Don't listen to all the clap trap. Keep buying and you cannot go wrong.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:01 - ID#335190)
War & USofA @ House of Commons debating at this moment, very poor logic used by the Liberals.
February 9, 1998
Veterans occupy defence minister's office in war protest

TORONTO ( CP )  About 10 people, including veterans of the Second World War, occupied the federal defence minister's office here Monday, saying they don't want Canada to join the United States in any military action against Iraq.

"I believe a large number of Canadians do not support the Canadian government that wants to support the American government," said Joanne Young, one of the protesters in Art Eggleton's constituency office.

"You would think they would have learned after ( the Gulf War ) that this isn't going to work," she said.

The demonstrators began camping out in the office at 10 a.m. Monday. An office employee who didn't want to be identified said the protest started with 25 people but by early evening only 10 were still sitting in.

"They're very quiet," the employee said. "They're pretty peaceful. They're not violent."

She said the protesters had made no demands other than wanting to stay to hear the decision made in the special debate in the Commons on Monday night on joining the U.S. action versus Iraq.

The United States has been pushing for a military strike against Iraq to force it to comply with United Nations weapons inspectors.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:01 - ID#330175)

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:04 - ID#22451)






(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:06 - ID#238422)
Don't be upset and do not blame yourself.
Blame somebody who told you the story that
platinum will skyrocket...This somebody
knew nothing...and set you up.

Russians are much better capitalists than
you may think. They are not even paying
taxes to the state. If some day you learn
how it all works, you are gonna be very

But platinum will go up if gold goes up,
so stick to it. Good luck.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:07 - ID#31868)
If you own physical, do yourself a huge favor, hold it. Sell your paper, but do not sell your physical.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:09 - ID#341234)
To: Myrmidon
You are exactly 100% right! The CBs have a smart market play going. They have time on their side. They need some of the mines to shut down so that they are able to dump some reserves at a good price. I posted something to that effect about 3 months ago, and it is good to see someone else who thinks the same.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:11 - ID#20137)
Date: Mon Feb 09 1998 22:39
bej ( Russia's Platinum ) ID#263133:

I just caught your post and went back and read the article on Russian supplies.

All I can say is if this article with all its if's and maybe's is driving the Platinum market down this evening, we are certain in a sad state of affairs.

"...Kotlyar declined to give production figures, saying merely that production would be maintained this year.
...A report prepared to support the Norilsk Nickel management in finance talks with Western bankers
claims the company produced 700,000 ounces of platinum and two million of palladium in 1996.
...If the growth in...
If the latest estimates are correct, ...."

What a wonderful life if you are a trader, just get an article like this published and reap your short profits.


It seems to me if they truely have all this platinum and palladium they would have closed their contract on time with Japan or continued to drive the prices to make more money in the world market. Just doesn't make sense... to me. Is it an act of desperation, similiar to the silver law suit?

But platinum down 9.60 and palladium down 8.30 this evening.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:13 - ID#28585)
Pete, if you think you're frustrated now, you better imagine how frustrated you will be when you miss the big move up in gold that you have waited for so patiently. Are you willing to take the chance of becoming like one of those silver-bugs who missed the Buffett anouncement and now find themselves at downtown missions, slugging back fifth rate scotch, and sitting in their own vomit, dejected and suicidal? I would hope not.

What you fail to understand when you speak about how the "big boys manipulate things" is that there is no complete unanimity of purpose amongst the big boys. Hence, there are big boys manipulating for gold and against it.

It is only a matter of time before the proponents of gold's value win the upper hand. How long? You can bet it will be sooner than later.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:14 - ID#227238)
Sharefin @21:00: How about a bright poem to dilute that post? It was a grim collection of items. ..... don't know about the black helios and detention camps though. I don't think the Japanese Americans will put up with it for a second time. ... : ) )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:15 - ID#153102)
Whither Gold; Whither Paper; Whither Covenants
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of
chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course
other may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Patrick Henry
Speech in the Virginia Convention March 23, 1775

How fortunate was Patrick Henry to have a day and a place to say, "Here, I stand". I have known good men who lived and died in the frog farm, U.S, Inc., who had the spirit of Patrick Henry in their chests, but never had a day or a place to say, "Here, I stand." So, the POG falling to a new low is not the worst thing that can befall a man.
What is different now than then ? SDRer said it. It is the existence of derivatives. It is the inherent and increasing instability of a system without a constant. All successful systems in nature have or follow a constant. The products and services of our time are wonderful, the companies are well managed. If you look only at those features, the DOW can climb forever. But, I submit, these are great edifices built on sand. There is no rock, no constant, beneath them. This is what is different now.

Preacher speaks the truth of the pre-eminence of covenent. But, above covenent is men and women of covenent. They are the only people you can trust. A contract is no better than the party with whom it is made. And in a day and a place like modern America, where the Law is weak and all ten planks of the communist manifesto have been legislated, these are facts worth keeping in mind.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:16 - ID#374211)
@ Preacher, Myrmidon, Speed.......South Africa
I just wanted to point out to all that this is a developing story, has
been for some months now, and I don't really expect things to
happen tomorrow, it will take some time...How long is a good question...
The USA daily comment is certainly going to follow this story should we....
As far as "The SA Propagandist" attacks on me, not to worry he has been chewed up badly, and exposed for what he is , and if he wishes, there is alot more where that came from....I always reserve the right to
defend myself against personal attacks...
But you see I also understand that he is denial, thinking, just because
these problems have not been dealt with in 30 years that they are
going to simply go away into thin air.......that is what I used to hear every day about tobacco....
.In any event to Speed and others who anxiously await
"witty responses" to reassure them all is and will OK for ever ,
not to read my posts and today USA article, I must say you only hear
what you want to hear, and believe me there is always someone ready
with "witty responses" and not dealing with facts and reality , to tell you what you want to hear......
This story has been building up for years, many SA headlines have been posted read and hear what you want to, that is your right....
But if I may, if the "situation" was not so critical, then why did such a large ( the largest ) delegation of SA Co's, Workers, even DPM attend the conference at Davos , urging CB's to raise POG?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:17 - ID#341234)
To: Myrmadon
Here is that old post. I have since decided that the rally may happen before the end of this year. The mines seem to be reacting faster than I originally thought.


Predictions on Gold:

Who wants to hear what is really going to happen in the gold market? The answer is more simple than you would have thought.

First, this talk about a conspiracy having to do with oil is ridiculous. People who believe in conspiracies are paranoid. There is no gold conspiracy just like there was no UFO over Phoenix.

What is going on is a smart market play. SOME of the central banks DO want to sell SOME of their gold. They also want to get the best price possible. How will they accomplish these goals?

1. Just like any other market, the gold marked is controlled by supply and demand. Emotions may override this in the short term, but supply and demand will always rule in the long term.

2. When gold was $400/oz., production and exploration were going crazy. The supply would have soon been increased to meet the demand. The central banks knew that if this happened, they would never be able to unload some gold at a decent price.

3. The central banks have time on their side. In order to reduce the supply, they simply have to reduce the price for now. To keep the price down, all they have to do is sell some token amounts of gold or, even better, just announce that they are going to sell.

4. If they can hold the price down to about $300/oz. for at least 2 more years, the production by the mining industry will decrease about 30%. There will be a lot of consolidation and mine closings. Exploration will cease.

5. Once people realize that the demand has exceeded the supply, the price of gold will rocket to about $500/oz. This is when the central banks will come in and save the day by selling some of their reserves over a period of about 4 years.

6. After the 4 years, the mining industry will be stronger than ever and will have increased production enough to cover the demand. The price will equalize at around $400/oz.

What does this mean to the small investor? Buy gold stocks or funds over the next few months. Make sure you buy large companies that can survive for a while at these low gold prices. Also, use some dollar cost averaging.

Why buy now when the big returns will not happen for at least 2 years? First, there is nothing else to do with your money anyway. The stock and bond markets are going to be lame over the next few years. Second, you must hold at least 18 months to reduce your capital gains tax. Finally, it is not going to get much cheaper, and where else are you going to have a shot at a 100% return over the next 3 years?

( Fred Filskov, November 1997 )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:17 - ID#227238)
Ted: I'm probably the only one in the firmament who does not know what the Canadian Tire currency is. Please elucidate.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:18 - ID#403159)
Nice hearing from ya. So you are up
to your eyeballs. I figure what do have
to lose. Gold at a 18 year low and the
fundamentals seem to be tilted in golds
favor. I think you and I are from the same
school ( The school of hard knocks ) . I'm
still in business using hi-tech to my
advantage and cut the overhead
65% but through alot of trial and error.
The problem is when everyone else
starts catching up it I'll start to take it's
toll on profit margins. When business
ain't there you better know how to invest
your money. We are now coming up againest
what I believe could be very uncertain times.
Good investing and GO GOLD.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:19 - ID#238422)
A.Goose\Russian Platinum - makes no sense to me
It's very simple - there is interest of the state
and there is interest of the private group - both
interests got to share...Russian Capitalism.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:22 - ID#402183)
Kinross-Cyprus merger
Heard from an old colleague today that Kinross Gold and Amax Gold have announced a merger of the two companies. The new entity will be called Kinross and will have annual production of just over 1 million oz. Is this old news?

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:22 - ID#22451)
Thank you for your advice. I have held Eagles, Pesos and Rands for years. I have no need to unload them now or ever and have held them solely as a hedge against hard times. Hopefully I or will never need them and be able to pass them on to my children.

Steve - Perth
(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:26 - ID#284170)
Australia to join US in Iraq war effort
Australian Prime Minister John Howard announced in the past hour that Australia will join the United States in their war effort against
Iraq. This will include providing the 707 jumbo's for refueling & our communications sites of Pine Gap & NW Cape. However he is stressing
we would prefer a diplomatic resolution as soon as possible. He has also called further of the Australian interest. This includes a call to Muslims in Australia to be understanding about the leadership problem in Iraq, & a spirit of cooperation between Muslims & Non-Muslims throughout Australia. The deputy leader of the opposition also mentioned that biological warfare is horrible, & going to war against Iraq is the last resort. We're in. Email:

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:30 - ID#373403)
Evening musings
Pete: It all depends on timing. I transferred the entire contents of my wifes IRA from Fidelity ContraFund to SelectAmericanGold and SelectPreciousMetals in late December. It cost us 3% on the majority to switch. Counting the commission, we are 4% ahead. Gold is actually doing well in the very short run.

If Soros, Rothschilds, Buffett, or Gates do to the gold market what Buffett just did to the silver market, it would mean a complete loss of control in the market for the powers that be. I think that is why there is an exodus in gold leasing interest.

The equity market reaction preceeds the economic reaction which preceeds the civil/political reaction. War follows all three. At least that is what the history books say.

I hear ads on the radio telling me I can't live without caller I.D. and I think about how remote a concern that must be for someone in Asia, the Middle East, or East Europe. What different worlds we experience. People are rioting in Jakarta because prices are rising and AOL just announced a price hike for internet service.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:31 - ID#344308)


he refers to his buddy........the c$......i told him
where it was going a month ago!

John Disney__A
(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:32 - ID#24135)
Attack a man of the cloth, moi ??
For Preacher
You memtioned me in your posting - you said to Tzadeak
" But be careful, a few weeks ago, without going into such detail, I posted similar sentiments to John Disney and his answer was that I was so stupid I couldn't understand the situation. "

Now preacher man ... I never said that you were stupid.
I may have THOUGHT that, I may have MEANT that, But I
would never SAY such a thang, mr preacher man.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:32 - ID#344308)


he refers to his buddy........the c$......i told him
where it was going a month ago!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:32 - ID#22451)
Thank you for your encouraging remarks.

Heavy Hitter
(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:33 - ID#403159)
Down $10. Do we have more to go you think?
Or is this a buying opportunity.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:41 - ID#255284)
It's a long way to Taumeranui, It's a long way, to go.
Evening All
The NZ Gobermint wants to be asked to join the dirty little party in the ME, but NZ has not yet been asked. This gives our new PM the opportunity to take the High Moral Ground:

"New Zealand has rejected joining a coalition against Iraq until diplomatic efforts have been exhausted, Prime Minister Jenny Shipley says. "

I guess you guys will need those two Hercules planes again soon, eh?

BTW Hercules & Zena filmed locally. That wierd, prehistoric/Olympian countryside is my neighbourhood.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:45 - ID#401460)

2/9/98 -- 8:15 PM
Ivory Coast signs deal with IMF and World Bank on reforms .
Once the agreement is approved by the executive boards of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, it will trigger the release of loans said to be worth $385 million over the next three years. 

It will also pave the way for Ivory Coast to benefit from new credits from the World Bank
and substantial relief on its $17 billion foreign debt. 
Is this more of the US tax dollars?
2/9/98 -- 6:15 PM
After Asian crisis, will poor countries listen to the IMF?

"Meeting in Caracas for a three-day conference that ends Monday, representatives of the Group of 24 said the IMF's demands for government belt tightening and open markets may now be met with greater misgivings. "

"Meeting in Caracas for a three-day conference that ends Monday, representatives of the Group of 24 said the IMF's demands for government belt tightening and open markets may now be met with greater misgivings."

They are starting to wise up.


Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:48 - ID#25867)
And now a message to our sponsors..
To Ziva: Kitco is a corporation, not a monarchy. We've got secretaries, but no queens. Sorry. Also you haven't done anything to get kicked off the group, but I will oblige if you make the request to be barred from entering in much the same way a gambling addict will ask the casino to keep them out. ALSO.. what's with this Global Intelligence thing?? I'm asking you now ( again ) to stop advertising them but you also have to explain something. Why do there seem to be many different people promoting this news service or whatever it is? Could you please explain what motivates you to often post their URL, telno, faxno, address etc..? Also can you give your thoughts on why others do the same?

To steve of perth: Speaking of advertising... never mind, you know what I'm going to say. Thanks for your cooperation.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:49 - ID#41229)
Russia release of platinum figures
This does not make sense to release this info if you indeed have the product inwhich you intend to sale, cause speculators to drop price.
It is the info you would release if you did not have product and banking system hanging on by a thin thread. It would, in an attempt, provide assurance to foreign investors that there is physical assets.

Of course just a THOUGHT {:+0 )

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:52 - ID#372262)

Herr Fred--

What you are saying is true as far it goes. What you are failing to factor in is the Asian competitive currency devaluation, the collapse of the dollar, the impeachment/resignation of another US President, biological and chemcial terrorism, Y2K and WWIII! Other than that--you're right!

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:58 - ID#31868)
I'm telling you folks, I have a real bad feeling about this whole Iraq thing. A real bad feeling.

The United States, or the corporation called the US Govt. operating out of the District of Columbia is a foul group indeed. What they are and what they represent has nothing to do with the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

Why is it that the US and England are the only two nations screaming for the end of SH in the ME? Why is that? Two liberal elects want blood.. Why is that?

I have a real bad feeling about this.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:59 - ID#227238)
Refer: That Plats story does have an odd odor about it; doesn't it? Nonetheless, holders of SWC should expect the inevitable in the AM. Sigh. The shorts will have a devil of time topping that story for awhile. ..... Maybe the next episode will detail a newly discovered hoard of Plats that was buried with Katherine the Great. ..... Oris: Please tell us that she was buried, in a plain pine box, ...... buck nekkid.

(Mon Feb 09 1998 23:59 - ID#335190)
Pete @ 23:04
Pete.....Keep the faith...Your "Powers To Be" are International Banker Corporations - National Central Bank Corporations - Corporations.

These "Money Trusts" Have Always existed. Yes, they control, stupid they are not. They have a good thing going for their persons, families and friends, and club members. They will adjust, it is to their advantage.
( The tree that will not bend in the wind, will break )

I suggest they have grown much to large, and are about to show signs of weakness. Their army of suits, are depleting their economic strength. The "Money Trusts" must scale down, they needed this army of suits to fight the cold war, well that war is over, the army of suits will be discharged. Those that are discharged, become the new unemployed army of Labour/worker/citizen. Citizens for hire eh! Death and destruction - some consider, this is good for Gold. I do not believe such.

Labour/worker/citizen is the key item to watch. Once a small group of these Labour/worker/citizen start to ask questions, and begin to organize, the "Power to Be" will shake in their boots.

Yes, the army will be used against the Labour/worker/citizen. Such action will quiet things in the short term, but not long term. Such action, will only raise the level of thinking. This your "Powers To Be" never, ever want, a worker/citizen that starts to think is dangerous, very dangerous, not only to the individual thinker, but, fear for those that control.

Gold, will be the only public ( Labour/worker/citizen ) recognized measure of value, not paper. I notice here at Kitco, many do not understand the direct connection of Gold and Value and Labour. I expect it is a hang over from the "RED" scare period.

Yes, Watch Labour, and then Gold. The time is not far off. Gold may not rise to $1,000, but the measure of value will hold, that will be a victory, considering what is coming at us, just around the corner. Watch Labour/organized ( Leadership at present, are Policemen ) , they are the key in a very important part of the economic equation. ( Trilateral - "tripartite" )

Take Care.