Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:00 - ID#225273)
Myrmidon & ANOTHER

I am quite intriqued by the philosophy of ANOTHER on the monetary demand of gold by the oil states. A few days ago, someone posted a link with everything ANOTHER has said on this forum.

I copied it and printed it out -- 75 pages. I've read it once, from last post to first. Now I'm reading it from first post to last.

His theory is basically that monetary demand for gold in the ME has cornered the market on the metal, including the production of the next several years. This is why he could predict it would not be allowed to fall below $280, because the owners would bid for it at its production cost, as it would do them no good if what they owned had to stay in the ground.

Sounds far out, but so does the Dow at 8340 and gold at $299

I want to finish reading what he has said again. And when he comes back, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

But monetary demand is the key as I see it.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:01 - ID#31868)
I forgot to post this, for those of you that are having any troubles with WIN95 I suggest the following

It is a great site, run by folks that know and are not snotty, anyway, there is a whole bunch of good stuff to read and learn and help.

Maria Bond
(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:05 - ID#348265)
( JTF ) Remote view this discount!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:07 - ID#225273)
Earl & ME War

Wouldn't it be ironic if the U.S. and Russia met on the battlefield nearly a decade after the Cold War ended?
Russia is certainly rattling its sabres. And even at that, no one is paying attention to the potential disaster.
Now I don't know much about militaries and equipment, etc. So I have no idea how the current tussle will end. So I don't factor this into my analysis.
If the U.S. effort hits a snag, we'll see that reflected soon enough in the gold market.
And, if gold were to runup to $420 in the interim, we'd make a lot of money before the first shot was fired.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:07 - ID#34883)
6pak 13:50 2/12
( 6pak said ) "You regard The Foundation for Economic Education ( FEE ) is based on a philosophy/scholars, and obviously

consider them to be independent and a constructive/positive organization. I do not, they are an extension of the

NAM & Chamber. The architects/promoter of the cold war, and a destructive force against the very thing I expect

you hold dear "FREEDOM" "

( If you mean by upholding freedom against Communism/Socialism than one could somehow contort that to mean

that FEE kept the West free enough to oppose Communism resulting in the Cold War yes. )

Many of FEE's contributing scholars have been virtually the only defenders of the Gold Standard for the last

fifty years, i.e., Ludwig von Mises, Henry Hazlitt, Percy and Bettina Greaves, Hans Stenholz, Murray Rothbard, In an age of Keynesian inflationism...FEE has been a rare voice indeed.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:08 - ID#57232)
The Old Wink museum!
D.A.: after you, EB, and Tolerant1 are done the wink museum may need much larger quarters! Smithsonian, or perhaps space in the Valley of the Emperors in China -- where all of those terracotta soldiers were buried. The Chinese undoubtedly did away with a lot of unsuccessful bureaucrats centuries before we even knew what they were!

I appreciate your comments about Indonesia. What I suspected as fishy, you clarified in great detail. I still don't understand one thing -- given what one can do with a PC these days, why is a currency board so much of a threat to the world's CB's? Is it just inertia? Surely they know the risk of indefinitely keeping the dollar as the world's currency, don't they? Instability in the dollar contributed greatly to the currency crisis in the first place.

I am beginning to wonder if the IMF and the world's CB's are being run by a bunch of sheep who are not capable of bringing even one new idea to the fore. If this is so, no wonder they are ineffective. Good thing our AG is built of different material.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:08 - ID#28594)
JTF--Re: Chinese Symposium Report

I too was surprised at first; however, I have encountered --in my Oriental Forays--a mind-set that is candid, concise and remarkably objective. I most heartily recommend to you Noda Nobuo, A New Chinese Empire. Dr. Nobuo is the Henri Pirenne ( Pirenne Thesis ) of our time. It is only 4 or 5 pages long and gives one a new perspective. This is an easy and compelling read. I think youll enjoy it.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:10 - ID#403159)
The market is in deniel of any
catastrophe of war. We will win
hands down and everything is
O.K. Gold is doing the same.
If the events don't unfold in
the markets favor, watch out
below and hang on to your

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:10 - ID#344308)

what happened to oil prices in the gulf war?

wonder how much 2500 calls were worth?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:10 - ID#345268)
@ Preacher

Production costs of Au could fall further. Why not another $20 per oz.?

Is "another" willing to revise his price down to $260? If not he must provide a reason.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:14 - ID#344308)

what did gold do during the gulf war?

what will YOU do during the next gulf war?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:22 - ID#31868)
another neat tool for WIN95 I was having the devil of the time with different documents coming in ( newsletters and such ) via email. You can go to this site and download a tiny program for free which will decode darn near anything you throw at it.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:24 - ID#57232)
Thanks, SDRer -- I got it!
All: Noda Nobuo does look like a refeshing read into the pending 'Clash of the East and West Titans':

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:25 - ID#403159)
Gold is insurance againest uncertainty.
Period. That is the bulk of demand.
When paper money no longer works
well, people turn to gold. As you refer
to it "monetary demand". The writing
is on the wall now. We have uncertainty.
War, financial you name it we got it.
Buy gold and hold. Only a fool could
trust paper right now ( public with open arms )
and Buffett is nobodys fool.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:26 - ID#57232)
G'Nite for real
this time!

John Disney__A
(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:28 - ID#24135)
Three cheers for Oris - hip hip hooray
to Oris
you will receive the order of the golden Camel for
beating Ziva with eight wickets in hand and well as
saving us from her cross eyed son, NEO.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:33 - ID#31868)
Recently in an issue of Gold Newsletter Blanchard stated that there was a forty year supply of gold. He then went on to say that if you had a forty year supply of anything else, you would have to pay people to come and take it away.

He pounded home the fact that gold was monetary. No more, no less.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:35 - ID#225273)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:37 - ID#250121)
That's not an OS that's a BS
Your posts tonight about win, and the incredible complexity just to remove an icon from the desktop for Crsus sake, would tax many many users. How did this inept, inferior and insulting Operating System become the standard, How did Gates become the US's Richest Man on this hodge podge of a two-bit system. That is the question Win users should be asking themselves. Then go buy a Macintosh.

Wishta I could speak Russian.

or someone could point me to an on-line translation to oris ~ vronsky


(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:40 - ID#225273)
I hit the wrong button a minute ago.
Yes. There was a lot of talk that the production cost of gold was $280 when gold was around that level.
What the rationale behind those statements were, I don't know. Maybe someone else does, although it's getting late and I'm almost outta here.

The biggest thing ANOTHER has said that I don't understand is that the Asians challenged the current monetary arrangement and found out that the free flow of oil is more important than the Pacific economies.

Exactly how the Asians ran afoul of the arrangement I'm not sure. Does anyone have an answer?

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:42 - ID#347185)
Thanks for the referal to Mr Bohl.

I got his package, but we have yet to talk...nice site though.

-The last couple of links that you've posted just give me an
error "101". These last few links ( ending in .pl ) haven't
gotten me there.

See any more hot options? Don't get shy now ;- )

I gotta go mow some more...computers tomorrow, or whatever brings in the
funny money. Taking delivery on a chunk of my third favorite PM in
the am -STEEL- ( 3rd is brass then lead :- )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:42 - ID#269245)
What? You think we may go to war? Again!?!
Iraq has quickly transformed from a regional crisis into a global crisis. I do not see China getting too involved, but it looks like Russia is trying to regain its military dominance. It is almost as if Iraq could become the stage for a Russian war with the United States. There seems to be a lot of crises about, a lot of infuriated people all over the world - people won't panic, will they? How does the U.S. stay on top of it all? I sure hope the United States does not trip on something it forgot to anticipate in its little, innocent, strategic and exploitive calculations. I don't think that I am completely confident in - well, let's just say that I'm a little "edgy." I think I like stability a little more that I used to. I really hope that Star Wars defense program is operational by now... That way I will be able to use all this gold I bought to pay for my kids' education someday!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:47 - ID#31868)
aurator, yes, what you say is so.
Some friends turned me on to an OS called BE - The various computer people I know said they love it. Currently I do not think they have a version for my machine.

But given the complexity of WIN95 I find that site I posted to be of help if one takes the time to rummage thru it.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:48 - ID#340459)
Russia is helping Iraq because Iraq owes them $ 80 billion in trade, If USA obliterates Iraq's Infra
structure, then Russia is a huge loser in Middle East politics

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:50 - ID#335190)
Advocate of currency board @ Steve Hanke U.S. Economist
February 13, 1998
FOCUS-Asian currencies tripped up by rupiah fears

SINGAPORE, Feb 13 ( Reuters ) - Mounting criticism of Indonesia's plan to adopt a currency board system undermined Asian currencies on Friday as traders grew concerned that their doubts about the proposal would prove justified.

U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin repeated his reservations about the proposal and even the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) , which has so far avoided public comment, joined the growing voices of dissent.

News of a meeting between President Suharto and senior IMF adviser Prabhakar Narvekar, after which Narvekar declined comment, and a postponed meeting between Suharto and Steve Hanke, the U.S. economist and advocate of the currency board, did little to soothe nerves.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:51 - ID#340459)
One question, How many expect rise in POG by next week, A show of hands please

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:54 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Thank you, Brother John, will gladly
accept the order of the Golden Camel
from your hands. Take care and good night...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 00:58 - ID#238422)
Here is translation of Vronsky-Oris conversation:

Vronsky - "Thank you very much, comrade. Cheers."

Oris - "Thank you too, comrade Vronsky. Toast for you"

Good night...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:00 - ID#340459)
6pak, Thanks for your post, Asian currencies are tanking and
like Friday the 13th will good for Gold, look at the price jump

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:08 - ID#183109)
anyone missing the live quote link? :)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:23 - ID#340459)
Thanks Polar Bear and Goodnite

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:23 - ID#31868)
I say up, how much, hmmmmm, no clue, but I think up. The exceleration of gyrations in world markets is picking up speed and the coward elect of the US is not helping matters.

Night all, time to turn a few pages of the Federalist Papers.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:24 - ID#340459)
tol1, Thanks and G'nite

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:29 - ID#227238)
Sorry for the delayed response. Couldn't get in to the site.
Preacher/H. Hitter: Part of the reason that 'things are different this time' is that the overall market is in a different mode. And has been since the break upward in winter 91. Everyone is euphoric about their paper market gains and is not really focussed on the ME and it's potential for 'collateral damage'. The market euphoria has probably induced a feeling of invincibility regarding the US and anything it chooses to undertake. Including a bit of adventuring in the ME oil patch. IMO.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:30 - ID#393224)
Missus is draggin' me off to see "Oscar and Lucinda". Hope it's a story about gold mining!! What a bloke has to put up with! Shoulda married a geologist!! Bought some real good Aussie silver shares that have been overlooked. Now if we can just get Buffet to buy another 130 million ounces!!!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:36 - ID#210235)
@Gulf war gold
MKVI, to see the gold chart display, you need to push a couple of buttons yourself: First go to

On the shaded bar, click SELECT WEEKLY CHART, click GOLD on pull-down list. Then click VIEW WEEKLY CHART. Can't get there straight from here.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:41 - ID#227238)
6 pak @00:50: Apparently, DA's earlier comments were right on the mark. If the Indonesians succeeded in the currency board enterprise, it would not bode well for international mega banking. ..... One bright spot though, as result of global communication on the web, it will become more and more difficult to maintain the international banking farce.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:44 - ID#222231)
Thank you for your reply and very insightful calculations. You made me finally think.

Most investors look forward one year to future earnings and bid up share price on that basis. SSC is anticipating 6 mil oz production in 1998, 12 mil oz in 1999, and 18 mil oz in 2000. Therefore calculations based on 1999 production would not be unreasonable.

Momentum and perception are wonderful things when they occur, when and if the tide turns. We are all hoping it will turn and the conditions are better than ever that PM's will finally rule soon. These are what will detemine P/E'S and price. We can only guess what levels they will reach, but if you take the current market levels for P/E'S and price in the stock market, they could apply to SSC and other PM'S if even a small portion of capital flows into PM'S. Your calculations are right on, except the price of stock is not determined on a linear basis solely. It would be rational to assume that they would reach levels achieved in 1980. For practical purposes, let's assume that a minimum P/E of 20 for SSC in 1999 and a price for silver of $25/oz in lieu of $50/oz with a production of 12 mil oz. and a production cost of $5/oz ( includes debt service ) . Calculations as follows:

1 ) 1998 ( looking forward to 1999 )
$25/oz-$5/oz = $20/oz x 12 mil oz = $240 mil / 255 mil shares = $0.90/share +/- x a P/E of 20 = $18 share price.
x a P/E of 15 = $13.50 share price.

2 ) 1999 ( looking forward to 2000 )
Assume the only thing that changes is production.
$25/oz-$5/oz = $20/oz x 18 mil oz = $360 mil / 255 mil shares =
$1.40/share +/- x a P/E of 20 = $28 share price.
x a P/E of 15 = $21 share price.

Assuming the shortfall is severe, it would take better than 5 yrs production at 20 mil oz/yr by SSC just to replace what Buffett has taken off the market.

We can hypothesize and rationalize any set of numbers until we're blue in the face, but as in the song "I can dream can't I"

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:44 - ID#398105)

"A Time for American Leadership on Key Global Issues"......

Days gone by, when we were all at primary school, nobody respected a "Bully". As time went by, and you gained more experience in dealing with people, the "Bully" ALWAYS got fu..ed up - at least in Glasgow.

No body respects a "Bully".

Today, the USA is perceived by most in the world as that "Bully", be it technically, socially or financially. It is not perceived to contribute anything outside Hollywood fantasy.

Communism has been beaten, socialism not so. Capitalism, well only "Club" members can join.

The current US leadership, all glitz no substance. You voted them in TWICE. They appear to be unaccountable ?!

If you cannot get your home front worked out, who is going to want to deal with you overseas ?

Get your home front sorted out. If a company does not perform, you change the management - one time !

Gold dust
(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:47 - ID#431206)
I'm fluent in Russian so if you would like me to translate something for you just post the address and I'll post the translation.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 01:52 - ID#252127)
I believe that Singapore has a "Currency Board" and they have a rather healthy currency

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:02 - ID#252150)
Midas@"Russia is Huge Loser If Iraqi Infrastructure Destroyed"'
What about the millions of innocent, helpless Iraqis whose miserable existence will further deteriortate.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:12 - ID#252150)
Don't Let Your Kids See This
From the Times:


SEVEN years ago today, during the Gulf War, an American
plane dropped tons of explosives on the al-Amirya air-raid
shelter in Baghdad. Iraqis say that 1,400 civilians were

Among them was Ghida, 17. Her mother, who lost nine
relatives in the attack, still dresses in black. Now she spends
her days taking journalists and other visitors on tours of the
former shelter.

She relates the horror of the American bombing for nearly an
hour, telling visitors she survived only because she was at
home when the attack came.

All around is twisted metal, broken concrete, and the gaping
hole in the roof where the bombs fell. The walls of the bomb
shelter are lined with wreaths and other floral tributes and
hundreds of photographs of those who perished. Satellite
television will beam her story around the world.

When I was in W. germany I travelled extensively in Tunisia & had a great time visiting many of the historical sites. I would'nt want to go back there again for fear that I would be mistaken for an American.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:29 - ID#28585)
February 13, 1998

Japanese Unload Their Foreign Bonds


OKYO -- Japanese investors sold a net record 3.5 trillion yen ( $28.3
billion ) in foreign bonds in December as cash-pressed banks traded in
securities to raise funds, traders and economists said today.

It was the fourth time in the last five months that Japanese investors, long among
the world's biggest buyers of United States Treasuries and other foreign bonds,
were net sellers. The trend is expected to continue.

The collapse of Hokkaido Takushoku Bank Ltd. and other financial institutions in
November prompted foreign banks to charge Japanese lenders more to borrow
overseas -- the "Japan premium."

Japanese banks, already seeing their capital depleted as they struggle to write off
bad loans, were forced to cash in foreign assets to raise dollars.

Japanese investors sold a net 1.69 trillion yen in United States Treasuries in
December, according to the Finance Ministry.

The premium peaked on Dec. 3, when Japanese banks were being charged 1.08
percentage points more than Western lenders to borrow. It's now fallen to 0.66

Soichi Okuda, an economist at Nippon Credit Bank Ltd., said that while Japanese
investors bought a net 2.028 trillion yen in foreign bonds for all of 1997, they will
remain net sellers through the end of the business year, on March 31, as
companies repatriate funds to increase capital.

For all 1997, Japanese bought a net 2.472 trillion yen in United States Treasuries.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:37 - ID#39845)
Goldbug for hire
While things are flat I thought I might be able to drum up some
business. I am available for house duties, sex, asset evaluation
and redistribution, computer care, child rearing, ( not in
the Arthur C. Clark way ) , and body enhancement. What you get
is, frustrated doom'n'gloomer who thinks gold is in the process
of shooting its wad, starbursting, heading to the moon, going
balistic and hitting $500 by years end.
Terms of employment strictly non-negotiable. Thems my terms.
If gold becomes a valueless commodity all bets are off.
email me at

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:46 - ID#252150)
Farfel & Haggis
Farfel--After their foreign exchange earnings repatriation ends the flow will reverse & the long bond will probably go to 5.5%.

Haggis--Your 01:44--well said.

H.K. -3.4% JP - 2.2% S.K. -1.2%.

The $U.S. up against the DM & JY, yet Au up .40 according to globex.
I can't see it going anywhere under these conditions, but stranger things have happened.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 02:48 - ID#244360)
Silver dollars
Can somebody post the going rate for
"junk" 90% silver dollars?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 03:08 - ID#252150)
Hedgehog@Are You Up For It
I know a beautiful young nymphomaniac, who owns a liquor store here in Victoria, who may be able to use your services. Should I put her in touch with you?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 03:17 - ID#39845)
Yes please James
Grog, gals, grub and gold. Hmmmm that seems like a good deal.
Sounds like a honey jar.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 03:44 - ID#413109)
Date: Fri Feb 13 1998 00:22
tolerant1 ( another neat tool for WIN95 ) ID#31868:========
Please advise if this suggestion is compatible with Netsc communicator,
and if so which item do you suggest?THANKs

(Fri Feb 13 1998 03:54 - ID#153102)
Thanks for your post last night. Wasted some time today trying to export some funds down under into mining shares. No fills. Figure the broker is maybe hostile to Yanks ?

Saw your advisory to Americans regarding the home front and Petronius' earlier post on the Constitution being kaput and government officials having unlimited and absolute immunity. Petronius is misinformed, but I don't fault him. There is 400 years of law to sort through to get at some facts and hardly anybody wants to do that. The media, the source of most people's ideas about the law and the Constitution, is positively disinforming. We will straighten out the home front as soon as possible, if possible. In some circles in America the word is that if voting could make a difference, they would make it illegal. I think Petronius said it would be difficult to establish that the government of the United States today is any better than the government of Iraq. I wouldn't go all the way on that although in many respects it is not any better. But, for sure, the people of America have no more control over what their government does overseas than do the people of Iraq. It simply has a mind, means, will, and agenda of its own. We call it the Green Machine.

Glad to see people talking about the monetary dimension of gold. I thought that's what was implied by saying it is a political metal.

Anybody who really wants more peace on earth will promote capitalism and distinguish it from corporatism. Gold and silver monetary units are the sine qua non of capitalism. And so long as wars had to be paid for with gold and not printed paper they were limited because gold is limited, unlike paper. Be a peace maker. Promote gold and silver coin as money.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:00 - ID#351224)
Crashed disk drive and lost thoughts!
Have lost the page with Another's 'thoughts' since October. Can anyone help?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:05 - ID#358318)
miles_A: Refresh your THOUGHTS!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:09 - ID#248180)
@ What's New or Same O Same O
Good evening kats & kittens, just back from beach patrol of the Great Southern Ocean shores of OZ. Oris has been crowned and anointed by J.Disney. We now know Vronsky is another Russian spy and speaker of the language. Zdrasvouytsya Braht. Glad to see you out of the fox-hole
Thanks Vronsky for the Asia markets post earlier. I was beginning to think that BC and his spin-doctors were almost successful in changing the perception of an ( Asian Lazarus ) overnight recovery. Not even a M/East war that no one desires will change Asia meltdown and the flow on of problems for the USA and Europe bankers.
Russia is not keen on war it simply wants the 80 Billion in cash or oil deals from Iraq. Russians are good capitalists NOW.
The USA as grand and great as it is and was will suffer on this international stage in the stakes of credibility. Hell everyone understands that the US$ is about to burn, simply on the basis of US debt.
The Japanese are not allies in this instance, possibly never were and never will be. They will sell bonds and buy P/metals.
The Dow top is about to blow. Smart money is slowly, maybe rapidly be exchanged for unwary trusting moms and dads, known as dumb money. Poor souls ( salt of the earth ) they are always the loosers to the suits.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:09 - ID#351224)
Many thanks for thinking of me!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:25 - ID#26793)
Less than 10 Japanese banks can survive. There are now 148.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:29 - ID#26793)
Second straight day of Indonesian rioting

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:30 - ID#351224)
Australia's new refugee problem?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:34 - ID#351224)
China deflates!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:35 - ID#26793)
Central Bankers seem tense over issue of Indonesian Currency Board

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:36 - ID#248180)
@ mozel
The text of your posts draw me to conclude that you Sir are a gentlemen and a scholar. A lawyer and scribe, well no one is perfect. Your understanding of constitutional law for Republics is required Down Under as we move into changes towards a Republic by 2001. May I extend an invitation and invite you to reside in OZ. Please be reminded that:
When the Titanic set off from the docks on its voyage, 1 million good men like yourself could not have saved her. The USA like the Titanic and ancient Rome is moving towards its' destiny. Loving her or hating her matters not.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:40 - ID#248180)
@ Donald refugee Proble @05:30
Hold on there lad!! I just invited mozel Down Under and you go and blow it with a post about Refugee Problems. What'll he think?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:43 - ID#26793)
Nice catch at 5:34. China deflation.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:45 - ID#185448)
Brother, can you spare me a Diners?
Im a sceptic as far as some kind of stuff is concerned which is posted on this site frequently, but I found an interestig article about y2k today in the latest issue of Austrias "Brsen-Kurier" ( 7/98 ) :
In Austria, American Express-Cards are only delivered with an expiry-date 31.12.99, as they could only guarantee for their own computer-software but they are not willing to take any risk concerning the computers of their partners, as General Manager L. Reisinger said. Cards with a 00-date are issued only for AMEX-employees, who are asked to test ( ! ) , how computers of AMEX-partners behave, when confontated with the Double-zero - tests beginning in Feb until Sep 98. Then they want to decide to give 00-cards also to clients.
Similar strategy runs Diners-Austria. Also issue only ninetyniners so far, as member of the board M. Buchacher said.
Master Cards executive manager M. Judt declares that the necessary software-changes would be within the responsibility of banks,etc and MCs opinion is that problems may only arise in some "exotic countries".
Finally VISA: They issue 00-cards since last October, they faced so far no problems within Austria, but he knows about troubles in the USA.

( Are the UnSofA an exotic country, do I need vaccinations when I travel there or is it sufficient when I avoid any contact with the hostile natives?
Was BC protected by vaccination or is there no danger of infection, as tailler une pipe is not an act of legal adultery, nest-ce pas? )

There are times, when all the worlds asleep,the questions run too deep, for such a simple man.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:46 - ID#26793)
Don't worry about Mozel, I think he will be welcome anywhere.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:46 - ID#351224)

Deflation fears mount as China shows 1.5pc drop in January

Mainland China inflation has remained in negative territory for the fourth consecutive month, underscoring fears the economy is sliding into deflation.

The benchmark inflation indicator - the retail price index ( RPI ) - dropped 1.5 per cent in January from a year ago, having moved into negative figures last October.

The consumer price index ( CPI ) , which includes costs of services, inched up 0.3 per cent last month, the state television quoted the State Planning Commission saying.

"Deflation, rather than inflation, is a problem and increased layoffs will become the concern of Beijing leaders," Dresdner Kleinwort Benson Securities ( Asia ) economist Qu Hongbin said.

Last year, the RPI added 0.8 per cent while CPI rose 2.8 per cent.

In December, the RPI was down 1.2 per cent with CPI up 0.4 per cent compared to a year ago.

Mr Qu said inflation would remain low for the year, with RPI up by between 1 and 1.5 per cent and CPI up 2 per cent.

"We have been telling clients that falling prices mean Chinese producers are losing their pricing power which discourages their incentive to invest.

"With falling inflation we are going to see slower economic growth."

He said the Chinese economy would grow 7 per cent this year, one percentage point below Beijing's official forecast of 8 per cent and also lower than last year's 8.8 per cent growth.

The mainland will face the critical task of maintaining economic growth this year, with exports suffering due to the Asian financial turmoil and consumer demand slackening amid growing concern of unemployment resulting from more speedy state sector reform, analysts say.

The task becomes more difficult as Beijing has ruled out a yuan devaluation which would boost export growth and had been the driving force behind the robust economy, the analysts added.

In a bid to sustain the economy, Vice-premier Li Lanqing told the World Economic Forum in Switzerland the mainland would spend US$750 billion on infrastructure development over the next three years.

Economists generally welcome Mr Li's idea of reflating the economy through a massive investment programme.

However, there is growing suspicion over how Beijing is going to finance the spending spree.

Many hold high hopes that concrete measures will be announced during the National People's Congress next month.

"Beijing authorities have already recognised the deflationary pressure and have started to think of doing something to stimulate economic growth," Mr Qu said.

While the state coffers could not afford to fork out the bill, the mainland's stock markets were unlikely to be a big source of funding.

"Bank credits will hold the key," he said, but he doubted whether mainland banks were willing to boost lending to infrastructure projects as they were already plagued by problems such as non-performing loans.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:48 - ID#358318)
A word in your shell-like, SEACEN delegates,
Asian central bankers, and governments; if you want your currency board with STABLE currencies unlike the present whipsawing and collapsing ones, back your currency board with GOLD!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:52 - ID#26793)
Congressman Armey will not vote to throw "dollars into a black hole" (IMF bailout

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:54 - ID#351224)
Give us your gold
Send all donations to the Treasury, says Tok Mat
KUALA LUMPUR: All donations to help strengthen the country's foreign reserves should be made directly to the Treasury, said Information Minister Datuk Seri Mohamed Rahmat.

He said this means that all funds proposed to be set up for this purpose must be scrapped.

However, he said those living outside Kuala Lumpur who want to contribute could send their donations to the state Information Department.

"We will record their contribution and channel it to the Treasury," he told reporters here yesterday.

With the Treasury appointed to accept valuables such as jewellery and money to help the nation's economy recover, Mohamed said his ministry's initial plans to set up Tabung Setia Negara, a special fund to make similar collections, had also been scrapped.

"Contributions the ministry received earlier will be sent to the Treasury.

"We will still help the Treasury by enhancing our information campaign to get the people to donate," he said.

On Sunday, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad had suggested the setting up of the special fund to collect donations in any form, including property, jewellery and cash, to strengthen foreign reserves and revive the economy.

Property and belongings contributed would be sold to get foreign exchange and kept as reserves.

Mohamed also said people who had "left-over" foreign currency from their overseas holiday trips could donate the money to the Treasury.

"Now that many are not able to travel overseas, why not give the foreign money as a kind gesture to the Government?" he asked.

Mohamed also said he had received a request from a foreigner who wanted to donate some valuables to help the economy recover.

"This is a good sign but I do not wish to disclose the nature of the valuables for the time being," he said.

He also urged the public not to hold special functions to raise money to contribute to the country's foreign reserves.

"We are aware that such activities can lead to abuse and I urge the public to beware of anyone promoting such functions," Mohamed said.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:57 - ID#228283)
@ miles_A..why not hold a bake sale ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:58 - ID#351224)
Indonesian news

(Fri Feb 13 1998 05:59 - ID#26793)
Boeing lobbies for continued welfare payments via IMF bailout

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:02 - ID#248180)
@ Fred @Vienna (00-Cards)
This problem has been experienced in Australia. Some banks have issued ATM cards with year 2000 expire dates. The ATM's have not recognised the cards and rejected the transactions. It is just the beginning of a massive problem.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:03 - ID#351224)
Ersel and the bake sale
Great idea - but the raisins would be gone before it hit the stall!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:11 - ID#228283)
Credit cards...........

Just for the heck of it, I justnow looked at all my GOLD cards. ALL

expire 12 / 99. What am I going to do ? Guess I'll have to carry around a

bag of junk silver.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:12 - ID#351224)
IMF medicine worse than the illness!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:16 - ID#351224)
"The Koreans' great dream was to become like the Japanese, and the bad news is they succeeded."

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:28 - ID#26793)
TVX conference call available; details here

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:31 - ID#26793)
Previous post Amax gold. Here is TVX info

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:43 - ID#248180)
@ sleepy
G'nite Kats & Kittens. The wife just winked at me, just might get lucky!!
Ahh who cares about gold tonight, I'm ready for the "ONE" in 1998.
You boys hold the fort, while Junior gets ready for makin woopie! See yall. In the words of James Brown "aaoouugghhh Auh feeeellll goooooodddd!

Crystal Ball
(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:43 - ID#287367)
Death to the Dow!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:46 - ID#248180)
So Good - So Good Do da doo rah do be do !!
High ol Silver!!!!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:52 - ID#185448)
Some people call me speedo, but my real name is Mr. O
Junior: Back again?!

Crystal Ball
(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:53 - ID#287367)
Couldn't resist sharing this one- (a true story) just heard on the radio
Young lady called for jury duty and asked her name.
She answered "Caroline Kennedy"
Then she was asked, "Has a member of your family ever been a victim of a violent crime?"

(Fri Feb 13 1998 06:58 - ID#286199)
Stocks going up
Until this supply dries up, the stock markets are going up!

This excerpted from the WSJ-Interactive:

The increased stock-fund cash flow so far in February comes after an apparent pickup in sales last month. An estimated $18.5 billion in net new money flowed into stock funds in January, according to the latest estimates released Thursday by the Investment Company Institute, a trade group, up from the actual $16.8 billion that was collected in December.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:01 - ID#57232)
Col. David Hackworth: Don't Attack Iraq until 'Sexgate' Resolved
OldSoldier, All: I think this is on individual OldSoldier quoted as being respected in military circles. Regardless, military individuals are being disgraced for lesser charges than those faced BC. And -- they have a point -- why isn't the Commander in Chief being held up to the same high standards of conduct? The unspoken word is how will they have the morale to fight at their top efficiency if there is such a double standard.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:02 - ID#286199)
"What me worry"
This further from the same article:

Several fund analysts are worried that the continued cash cascade into stock funds -- and the apparent slackening of interest in bond funds and other conservative investments -- reflect an imprudence on the part of many investors. Investors who keep pouring money into stock funds are likely to become increasingly overexposed and vulnerable to stock-market gyrations, they note. And given how long the bull run has gone on already, the betting in some quarters is that a downturn in the market may happen sooner rather than later.

"We always worry that people's expectations are too high," says Steve Norwitz, vice president at T. Rowe Price Associates in Baltimore. "We're cautioning people once again" against expecting the market to keep setting record highs.

But Mr. Norwitz also adds that investors may appear unconcerned about dumping so much money into stock funds because they're socking their money away for the long term. That will enable them to ride out the dips. "A lot of this money that's coming in is for retirement," he says. "People know they're in this for the long run." So far this month, flows into T. Rowe Price's domestic stock funds have already reached 75% of January's amount, he says.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:20 - ID#26793)
South African CB encourages gold hedging for miners

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:24 - ID#26793)
U.S. tells Japan to pump now! Japan responds; maybe later. So sorry.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:31 - ID#26793)
Swiss UBS to cut 3000 jobs in London.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:36 - ID#26793)
Mexican banks under scrutiny for sufficient reserves to cover bad loans

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:42 - ID#263184)
Interesting action yesterday in gold and silver
Yesterday's trading in gold and silver stocks was quite interesting. Volume dried up considerably and prices stabilized quite nicely. The late move up in bellweather NEM could be the indication that the groups are about to resume the move up. Continued draw down in silver at the Comex is making things very interesting.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:43 - ID#26793)
Oil price slump pains Venezuela. Tax increases, budget cuts likely.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:49 - ID#26793)
First quarter in 4 years that earnings did not exceed analysts expectations

(Fri Feb 13 1998 07:54 - ID#26793)
U.S. banks "in denial" over Asian losses but they are real and serious

(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:16 - ID#426220)

REF: "LONDON, Feb 13 ( Reuters ) - More staff at the investment banking arm of Swiss bank UBS ( UBS.S ) have been told they will not be needed when the firm merges with Swiss rival SBC ( SBVZn.S ) , banking sources said on Friday."

In the event the so-called London Precious Metals Analysts at UBS, Andy Smith, is indeed among the casualties, I do hope he made a pile of money SHORTING GOLD ON THE 'PRE-DETERMINED' PATH DOWN, because he most likely will be treated as a Financial Leper in the international community.

One down... one to go, eh Mr. Arnold?

Old Soldier
(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:32 - ID#185274)
Clinton damage to US Military
JTF 07:01 Unfortunately, the vast majority of Clinton's damage to the US Military has already been done. Many fine officers chose early retirement when he was first elected rather than serve under such scum. Clinton's grandios claims about reducing govenment are all military cuts. Those cuts in personnel, equipment, maintenance and training have worked through the system and have severely reduced US Military readiness and capabilties. These things are more demoralizing to soldiers than who the boss is bonking. Clinton's worse crime, the destruction of the US Military, is still largely unknown to the masses. The will only learn the story after the next disaster.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:37 - ID#238295)
the action
Bullion again holding up very well as bonds and the dollar surge. But SA gold stocks still weak -- JSE gold index off about 1.7% this morning.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:44 - ID#348169)
Crystal Ball @ 6:43
My dictionary says TRISKAIDEKAPHOBIA but that's not to say yours is wrong because, perhaps, you may have a modern version! AAR - Happy Friday 13th everyone!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:52 - ID#39845)
D.O.W. = Death of Wankers.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:56 - ID#330175)
Thank god I spent my first 5 years seakayaking+ Hiking...*go gold*
Cause tryin ta get the simplest business ( huh ) -relaTED thing done is damn near impossible---kinda like tryin ta weave yer way through the Chinese buracracy...and not suceeding!--Away ta beat me head against a wall~~~P.S.I'd be a multi-millionaire if I had a dollar ( U.S. ) for every time someone here in CB told me they'd call me back--AND DIDN'T!! "we'll get back to you"=har har har

JOE Smith
(Fri Feb 13 1998 08:57 - ID#184167)
Silverbaron and others..the geologist at Munni drew this scetch of the deposit

you need to go to

follow the link to my site iit is a 140k tiff file

if it fails e-mail me

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:00 - ID#31868)
Your post to me earlier this morning. I see nothing wrong in what you said at all and in fact I agree in large measure.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:13 - ID#287358)
South African Stocks
I don't think the South African stocks are worth the risk. Asa cut the quartly dividend. It seems alot safer to go with the North American mines.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:20 - ID#410114)
lease rates
Today it is Feb 13 and the lease rates that are quoted are for feb 9, has kitco stoped quoting these rates?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:23 - ID#287207)
Gulf no Guaranteed Bonanza
Friday February 13, 7:19 am Eastern Time

Growing Gulf tensions leave gold analysts divided

By Patrick Chalmers

LONDON, Feb 13 ( Reuters ) - As U.S.-led pressure for military strikes against Iraq
grew on Friday, analysts remained divided over how gold, a sometime safe-haven
hedge for investors, might react to renewed fighting in the Gulf.

Washington's efforts to bolster support for its Iraq stance, which have met with a
cool response from Russia among others, have left bullion dealers uncertain about
what might come next and how gold may react.

The precious metal, which hit 18-1/2-year lows below $280 an ounce last month in
a long-term bear run, has held in a range pegged to $300 throughout a week of
diplomatic toing and froing by senior U.S. officials.

Some analysts said that amid general long-term bearishness for gold, the threat of
air strikes in response to Baghdad's thwarting of U.N. weapons inspectors had
boosted the metal in anticipation of a rally should bombing begin.

Others discounted gold's role altogether, citing other recent periods of international
tension, such as China's stand-off with Taiwan in March 1996, as evidence that
panicked investors preferred dollar bills to bullion bars.

``I don't think gold will rise. The things to go for are dollars,'' said Merrill Lynch
metals analyst Ted Arnold.

``The most recent illustration was in 1996 when the Chinese were firing their
missiles ( in military exercises ) and the Chinese Taiwanese bought out all the dollar
bills. I understand that for a short time, there was even a premium on 100 dollar
bills,'' said Arnold.

``The same thing applies in the Gulf. No one wants to have gold,'' he said, adding
nevertheless that while tensions remained, gold would probably hold steady.

``Nobody wants to sell it because there's this uncertainty. It might well go down on
the news,'' he said.

Another black mark against gold was its performance after Iraq's invasion of
Kuwait in 1990 and in the lead-up to the subsequent land war waged early the
following year by an international coalition of forces led by the United States.

Veteran bullion dealers remember the months building up to the start of fighting on
January 17, 1991, a period which allowed all who wished it to build long positions
in the metal in anticipation of a war-induced rally.

But as fighting began, gold rose a little to peak at $411 before rapidly dropping $30.

``Last time a lot of people got badly hit. On the day the war started, the price came
off almost as it started,'' said one London dealer.

``Everyone seems to be rather blase about it at the moment. I don't think anybody's
long ahead of it which means if something does happen, maybe it would be a good
time to go long,'' he said.

One London analyst said that two effects of any fighting, a strong dollar depressing
the gold price and an increased oil price feeding through into higher Middle East
gold demand, could balance out to give a net neutral effect on spot gold.

``It's very difficult to say which way gold will go. I suppose ultimately it's an extra
bit of uncertainty which will probably not be a bad thing,'' he said.

Another analyst disagreed, saying the market had already factored in a premium for
tensions in the Gulf, which could give way in the event of fighting.

``I suspect the market's assuming there's going to be something happening. The
premium's already there,'' he said.

``What we could see is that when it's over or when it doesn't happen, gold will lose
$10,'' he added.

Tony Warwick-Ching, metals analyst for Flemings Global Mining Group, said gold
had other things on its plate such as continued uncertainty about its role among the
reserve instruments to be held by the European Central Bank.

``I think the Gulf War is entirely irrelevant to the current situation, there's too much
against it at the moment,'' he said.

Gold was last at $298.20/$298.60 an ounce versus its Thursday New York close of

Central bank gold sales last year, and the fear of them, fuelled a long bear run in the
metal, with miners selling forward to lock in higher prices and market speculators
taking short positions in anticipation of further price falls.

The Hermit
(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:32 - ID#374232)
Your post of 03:54 is superb. Limiting the amount of money would indeed limit war! The reasons for war are power and money, are they not? Gold as money is the key.

Well said indeed. Thank you sir!


The Hermit

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:34 - ID#351224)
More perspectives on asian (pre-global) financial crisis


As reported in numerous news coverage in the US, Canada, Europe
 and Australia, the Rupiah or national currency crisis in Indonesia
 has led to widespread attacks on the ethnic Chinese population in
 small towns such as Jember, Tuban, etc.

These senseless attacks cause many ethnic and religious minorities to
 live in fear.

Ethnic Chinese suffer the stereotypes of being disproportionally
 wealthy. Yet the majority of Chinese Indonesians are tiny
 shopkeepers, living in towns and villages, far away from modern
 living standards of Jakarta. Some are plain employees, some are
 owners of small businesses in manufacturing or services.

These Chinese Indonesians are too poor to be even able to take out
 loans or debts in US dollar. They cannot be held responsible for
 the US $ 65 billion debt incurred by the private business sector
 of Indonesia.

And yet some religious leaders and mobs in Indonesia are making them
 the target of looting, burning, and other destruction of their
 properties, all done in the retaliation for the Rupiah Plunge!
 The terror and lawless rioting against these defenseless minority
 causes deep international concerns.

Indonesia has a long history of discrimination against
the Indonesian Chinese:
* Use of Chinese written language in public is forbidden,
* Teaching of Chinese language is prohibitted.
* They are prohibited from entering certain careers such as
 politics, or medical specialties.
* For most of them the only way to make a living is to go into
 small business.
* Despite their positive contribution to the Indonesian economy,
 the Chinese Indonesians are constantly being singled out as
 scapegoats everytime the country cannot solve a problem.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:37 - ID#351224)
More perspectives on asian (pre-global) financial crisis


As reported in numerous news coverage in the US, Canada, Europe
 and Australia, the Rupiah or national currency crisis in Indonesia
 has led to widespread attacks on the ethnic Chinese population in
 small towns such as Jember, Tuban, etc.

These senseless attacks cause many ethnic and religious minorities to
 live in fear.

Ethnic Chinese suffer the stereotypes of being disproportionally
 wealthy. Yet the majority of Chinese Indonesians are tiny
 shopkeepers, living in towns and villages, far away from modern
 living standards of Jakarta. Some are plain employees, some are
 owners of small businesses in manufacturing or services.

These Chinese Indonesians are too poor to be even able to take out
 loans or debts in US dollar. They cannot be held responsible for
 the US $ 65 billion debt incurred by the private business sector
 of Indonesia.

And yet some religious leaders and mobs in Indonesia are making them
 the target of looting, burning, and other destruction of their
 properties, all done in the retaliation for the Rupiah Plunge!
 The terror and lawless rioting against these defenseless minority
 causes deep international concerns.

Indonesia has a long history of discrimination against
the Indonesian Chinese:
* Use of Chinese written language in public is forbidden,
* Teaching of Chinese language is prohibitted.
* They are prohibited from entering certain careers such as
 politics, or medical specialties.
* For most of them the only way to make a living is to go into
 small business.
* Despite their positive contribution to the Indonesian economy,
 the Chinese Indonesians are constantly being singled out as
 scapegoats everytime the country cannot solve a problem.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:39 - ID#31868)
The Great Reckoning - Davidson and Mogg
They say to watch for race relations to deteriorate harshly. Those that lose in the upcoming debacle will seek out scapegoats. Heightened tensions among all ethnic groups is to be expected.

My oh my how we have progressed as a species. Sad commentary on us.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:45 - ID#28594)
It is my earnest hope that Mr. Arnold's assets are ALL $ denominated!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:46 - ID#344308)
@-----en-route-to-another-world------c'mon-c-max----you-can-go-too! ...look-inside-for-the-truth

the blade will be paid with the blood of the peopleo.....look at
indonesia.....what of the wannabees? the rest of the world has
billions and billions ( sagan ) of wannabees------

they are gonnabee raising hell very shortly......

chaos and it should be......quite a
natural event.....quite un-natural ( cmax--not natural--not of this world ) to deviate from constant rythms.......the sweet song, driven to a
cacaphony of shreiks and temporal madness..........

there are so many lit fuses as to defy the imaginative juices with
the possible thing not defied......the truth.....
deep sh!t is will wear many hats.... ( no dis-respect hatt )
and carry a bigger stick than the imf..cb...nwo...bilden-weine-berger's......etc...
positioning is all we can god..
definitely not in that order........

fixing to chase the bear on ski's at big ski? heading
west next & lv........time to see if jack is still
black........the smelly casinos......and the peopleo......and the left

silver you ask? she made it very close to the 50% re-tracement level....
consolidation now......and then the moon......UNLESS some non-peopleo begin
to sell their hoards.......and there are hoards......greed...will dictate
this need..........


(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:48 - ID#28594)
Tolerant1, re: 'race bashing'...
There are those who might suggest that the view of Asia's
plight is an example of ugly racial prejudice...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:48 - ID#31868)
billions and billions ( sagan ) - nice touch

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:52 - ID#31868)
I certainly did not mean to discount the suffering there in the least. I felt that the example there was so glaring as not to need make mention of it. My point comes off my continuing posts that I think Davidson and Mogg are right on the mark with regards to the thoughts they penned in their book.

It was my intention to point this out to people in zones where such has not occured yet, but will.

Of course your are correct my friend.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:54 - ID#340459)
USA, Just print and consume world wealth through your paper and use that wealth through IMF
shenanigans to load up on more assets globally, while putting the yoke of $ borrowing in poor states. You dont need war to achieve world control. People are so materialist now that they can start a War and kill thousands for Oil profits, Woe to such greed where one would even sell the rope that would be used to hang the seller of it.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:55 - ID#333131)
Donald, Thanks for you post of Zack's earnings data
I think its a proven fact that Lemmings don't read road signs: CLIFF AHEAD.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:55 - ID#261352)
CNBC Jimmy Roges "The EURO will not work and it will change the world"
Comments on the Euros' failure and GOLD, the US market?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 09:57 - ID#31868)
After reading about their wanting to be bailed out, I hope they go bust, them and the rest of the corporate giants that want the people to pay for their greed and losses.

Chapter 11 here I come, do dah.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:00 - ID#254269)
good morning all

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:01 - ID#261352)
CNBC Jimmy Rogers Starting to like base metals. Buying lead. Looking hard
at oil and rubber.Likes rubber more than oil.Is he still
hanging on to his inflation story?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:03 - ID#93232)
@Andy Smith.....
One of the golden maid's rapist has been the golden sword of justice will administer the sentence...gorged and then gutted. Ted Arnold...can your justice be far behind? I will draw the golden rapier and the world will rejoice at the ghastly death of another rapist. No where to run, no where to hide. The sword is anxious and warm.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:07 - ID#31868)
In you zeal to met out justice, do not, I repeat, do not disfigure them to horribly. We can put them on display on the new wing in the museum.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:11 - ID#93232)
I have no control over the golden sword of justice....I have great fear of it all should. It knows one's thoughts.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:11 - ID#7568)

Another reason that the IMF is against a currency board is that it is a repudiation of central banking and is one step away from every central bankers bad dream, and that is an asset backed currency.

In a currency board regime, each unit of currency is backed by some fixed amount of another asset, in this case US dollars. The banking system forfeits the right to create local currency. Instead, the money supply ( as distinct from the credit supply ) can only increase when dollars are imported and find their way into the coffers of the central bank.

There are very appealing aspects of a system such as this. The most important is the ability of the system to have a clear line between money and credit. Money is risk free and has no return, credit has a return but the price of it is risk.

The value of drawing a line is that the moral hazzard of credit bubbles can be removed. Banks can be allowed to fail because they become exactly what they are supposed to be, namely conduits for risk capital. In this way the market becomes the sole determinant of credit expansion. There are no central bank meetings, because there is no central bank policy.

In order for an asset based currency system to work, its preservation must be the highest calling in the economic regime. It must be clear that it will not be reneged upon even in times of government crisis. This means that governmental debt must also be allowed to fail, and should be marketed as such.

The difficulty that Indonesia faces in implementing this kind of system is that the current reserves of dollars do not cover the entirety of the current credit supply. M1 + M2 is around 80 billion US while forex reserves are around 20 billion. M1, however is around 14 billion, comfortablely below forex reserves. The obvious choice for where to draw the line will be M1. This will mean that cash and demand deposits will be freely convertable to forex at a fixed rate. Everything else is caveat emptor. The initial response to such a move may be a strong competition for money vs. time deposits ( credit ) . This will spike interest rates in the short term. It should also have the effect of drawing in forex to take advantage of the higher rates, since theoretically currency risk has been removed.

Another benefit of a system such as this will be in the pain distribution. The poorest members of the society are naturally the smallest holders of credit in ratio to their cash holdings. Since credit is what is going to take the hit, the pain will be felt higher up the economic ladder, where it is at least not life threatening.

I hope they get it done.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:15 - ID#318321)
I don't want Boeing to go bust. They're my biggest customer. At least wait till I have more gold: )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:23 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmm, these people are reasonable, like the tie
in with the British at the end eh.

Iranian cleric says Salman Rushdie still must be killed
Copyright  1998
Copyright  1998 The Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran ( February 13, 1998 08:18 a.m. EST ) -- Iran's chief prosecutor insisted Friday that author Salman Rushdie still must die for blaspheming Islam, reinforcing the death edict nine years after it was issued.

"The shedding of this man's blood is obligatory," prosecutor Morteza Moqtadaie declared.

In a fatwa, or Islamic decree, on Feb. 14, 1989, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini said that Rushdie should be killed for insulting the Prophet Mohammed in his book, "The Satanic Verses."

Since then, Rushdie has lived largely in hiding and under the protection of the British government.

"Any Muslim who hears an insult to the prophet must kill the person who commits the insult. It is better that those closest to that person try to kill him first," Moqtadaie said in a sermon Friday at Tehran University.

Worshipers shouted "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great," when he said "Rushdie must die."

Moqtadaie, a senior cleric, said that during his lifetime Mohammed had sent two people to cut the throat of a man who had insulted him. "What Imam Khomeini did is exactly what the prophet did, and this ( death sentence ) must be preserved," he said.

Khomeini, Iran's revolutionary leader, died of cancer four months after issuing his decree. Iranian leaders insist the fatwa cannot be revoked. The issue has long strained relations with Britain and other Western countries.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:25 - ID#31868)
You will have time. Remember one of my great lines, "I've thrown out better customers."

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:34 - ID#286249)
Banks: An anachronism
In a real sense, the downgrade of ONE major bank is a downgrade of all: banks hunt in packs, loan in packs and as their food supply diminishes, they go down in packs. Metz said $6trillion?
The food supply wont be diminished, it will be cremated in the paper fire- storm...

IMHO--Derivatives exist BECAUSE of the inherent instability of fiat currencies. And derivatives have fatal flaws ...
Jin as Tonic!

Richard Burke
(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:41 - ID#411318)
Cherokee: thanks for silver comment. I was out of ASM, FSR and SSO at higher prices - back in this morning at lower prices.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:42 - ID#286249)
Tolerant1--Knew YOU didn't! But I wonder sometimes if others realize?
"A gull is whispering to the anchor's ear.
Suddenly--without a word, the anchor slides and falls.
Surprised, the gull gets away.
For a moment, the anchor pales in the water and goes down.
The thoughts that remained in the gull's chest turn into sad calls and scatter in the sky." "Sad Parting" Maruyama Kaoru

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:43 - ID#243180)
Thanx for your post of 12 Feb 22:25. It was well thought through and professional in its approach. I appreciate it....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:45 - ID#424187)
Poster who bought BAN-T-Platinum Timmins ONT.

They have the GOODS it will be a good ride.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:48 - ID#7568)
For all those who believe that there is no reason to keep NBC weapons far ,far away from some of the regimes in the ME, might I suggest pasting Tol1's last post to the refrigerator. Everytime you think that you are dealing with people who value life in the same manner as those from outside the region, go back and read it again.

Guy writes a book. You don't like what he says. He must die. Perfect. Wonderful, compassionate, reasonable society. Someone get me a visa.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:50 - ID#31868)
Richard Burke
Take a look at Clifton Mining - CFB - in Canada -

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:51 - ID#31868)
You never cease to amaze me.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:53 - ID#261352)
CNBC reported Barton Biggs saw "The Titanic" and thought of the DOW
The ship going down,the wealthy in the upper decks, the poor in
the lower,the powers slowing the sinking, etc.Bull DOW @ 10,000
in 1998 with my luck.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:55 - ID#342282)
geoffs, yours re BAN_T PT
Do you have a web page or phone #? I'd like to discuss ore with them. Thanx

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:56 - ID#31868)
since I now think that Starr is on the coward elects payroll
it appears others do as well. The feeding frenzy on the coward elect has not even begun in earnest.

Group Wants Probe of Brown's Death

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- A conservative legal rights group joined by an old-line civil rights organization asked a three-judge panel to reactivate an independent counsel that investigated Ron Brown to look anew at the late Commerce secretary's death in a plane crash.

Judicial Watch, the conservative group, cited questions raised by a military pathologist who says Brown could have been shot before his Air Force plane crashed into the Croatian mountains in filing the request with three federal appeals court judges who appoint independent counsels. The request was immediately supported by the District of Columbia chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

In its inch-thick court brief, Judicial Watch wrote: ``New evidence indicates that the death of Secretary Brown -- who was the target of a criminal investigation commenced under the independent counsel statute and a material witness in another important federal case involving political corruption -- was not sufficiently investigated in light of ... forensic evidence demonstrating that his death may not have been accidental.''

Brown and all 34 others aboard were killed when the Air Force passenger jet crashed on approach to Dubrovnik, Croatia, on April 3, 1996. The Commerce secretary was on a trade mission to the Baltics.

At the time, Brown was under investigation for financial improprieties. With his death, an independent counsel's probe was turned over to the Justice Department. A military pathologist who examined photos of Brown's body after the accident said a hole in his head resembled a bullet wound and should have warranted an autopsy. No autopsy was ever performed.

Attorney General Janet Reno said last month she would reopen the investigation into Brown's death only if there was ``credible information'' he did not die as a result of crash injuries. The Air Force issued a 22-volume report in June 1996 confirming its initial finding that pilot error and faulty navigation equipment caused the crash.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 10:56 - ID#340459)
I couldnt post earlier, any problems with the system, would you know tolerant1

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:04 - ID#424187)
To CHAS 1-800-230-9773 ENJOY

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:05 - ID#330175)
SCREW the loonie........................but....................*go gold*
To the bank to wire every dime ( that is available to me that is ) of my near worthless Canadian money ( ? ) to the states---let's see if CIBC can wire the right currency out of my CANADIAN passbook to the states this time ( last week they wired U.S. currency to the states out of my CANADIAN passbook that is denominated in CANADIAN dollars that then took Toronto hours ta straighten out...minor mistake... ( EH ) ....I didn't even have that amount of Canadian money to come close to covering their attentive wiring job ( the land of NO attention to detail... ( EH ) ....What will I get WIRED today---Pesos---Rupiahs---huh?---back to the wars of tryin ta get anything accomplished in Canada....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:05 - ID#238409)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:06 - ID#340459)
Would anyone have ideas or reasons why Ron Brown may have been disposed off, The accident is murky
as Vince Foster's demise suspiciously.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:07 - ID#31868)
Hidden money. Plain and simple.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:13 - ID#287277)
Carl, Donald, Mozel--Had to share this!

When was the last time you read THIS sort of declarative sentence in a financial report?

"From the structure and scale of the financial assets and liabilities of state-owned enterprises, it can be seen that the amount of the financial liabilities is more than twice as much as that of the financial assets, and that the bank loans account for too large a proportion in the total liabilities. Such being the case, once there is anything wrong with the repayment capability of the enterprises, the bank loans will immediately begin to turn into bad loans." "12.2 Passage loading from the enterprise's risk liabilities to the Bank's bad loans in China"

Walking the circle: Maybe the Chinese intend to let the debt go...they might well say to round-eyed bankers, Had you done your due diligence, you would have/should have known. We published this on the internet for heavens sake! Novel approach!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:13 - ID#342282)
Geoffs, thanx
If i get a clear picture and you're interested I'll let you know

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:13 - ID#22956)
.......It is a large project..........

I am ready for it. I have been on the phone all morning to architects, lawyers, and construction crews. No expense is too great for this 'mission' to build more wings to the museum. It will house many great prizes for the gold-bugs rivaling that of the Getty in LA. I will fly in the great Ted to head the construction project. He assures me with a little 'help' he can have it done in less than a fortnight. This museum will, of course, have a loooong bar to slake the thirst of all the tired and hot 'bugs' seeking their favorite beverages. A small ( but luxurious hotel ) is also in the works. The restaurant will feature all the famous 'bug' dishes from around the world. A complete gymnasium will hold a Turkish Barh House and the latest exercise equipment to keep our bodies sound...and to help our minds...well, we have the bar and the optional hash-house for those inclined. It will be in the basement on the FAR wing ( I'm thinking of calling it Cloud Nine, or something ) . A concert hall will be built for various entertainment should Strad bring the Strad and Studio bring his groovy 'axe'. A 70mm projection screen will be installed to show continuous Bond flicks. Many other ideas are on the 'table' for this great 'palace'.

If anyone has any other suggestions you should post them soon for 're'-construction starts soon. No donations needed to fray the costs....I will use the proceeds from my gold-bear fund.....for it is HUGE! :-$} ... ( ... ) ...oh my!

go gold! Tolerant1, we will need Camdesuss soon. He will be placed at the entrance. We should have him gold plated, no?

Ted - I will mail you with the details. You may have to delay the construction of your palacial estate in Maine. The pay will be handsome if the job is under budget.....but, of course, spare no expense......uh huh! make preparations......


(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:20 - ID#342282)
Myrmidon and Harold B. re reprint
May be first of the week to get it out. copy machine down. sorry

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:23 - ID#7568)

Fresh off the grapevine, it seems that the folks over at Solomon Bros. have not finished their business in the silver market. A large chunk of calls have just been purchased with exercise in the fairly near future. The game goes on.

All my admonishments against shorting silver remain intact. Stop loss orders may well be ineffective. Spreads can widen to obscene levels in an instant. Just because things look like they go up in linear fashion on a chart, don't be fooled. At first madness in Palladium the physical market was $200 bid at $250 offered. If you were short, and had a stop in at $200, you could have gotten filled 25% above the last trade. Translating this into silver numbers, this might have an $8.00 stop be executed at $10.00. This amounts to an overrun of $10,000 per contract. The potential reward against this kind of execution risk is way to small to even consider playing this game.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:27 - ID#23782)
Tol 1 10:51 Re SDRer

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:27 - ID#224149)
Time and Time
Thousand years of peace --- Make the World Better ---More appropriate ---More suitable --- More useful -----More fit----- better ---Touch God ------ Positive thinking----Away to see TIME .

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:28 - ID#26395)
Proposed Changes
Many people have suggested to me to have a limit as to the number of times any one person can post on a given day. I think it's a good idea and that it would result in our group becoming more of a discussion group and less of a chat site. I'm thinking a limit of three posts a day would be effective.

I invite any comments from both contributors and lurkers.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:31 - ID#254269)
@ tolerant 1; Re your 10.56 re Starr being on B.C's payroll; there is an article

on Page B2 ( Legal Beat ) of today's WSJ titled; "Former Prosecutors Defend Starr's Tactics". I am unable to post the article ( been busy this a.m. ) but worth a look if you can access it. Quote; "the real damning evidence is this Revlon connection" says a New York lawyer, Sean O'Shea, in connection with Vernon Jordan trying to get Monica a job with Revlon in NYC. Notice how quickly Revlon dropped Monica when the
story broke.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:34 - ID#432361)
Message Limit
Bart: Based on my experience 5 seems like a minimum. Sometimes you need that many posts to discuss an issue.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:35 - ID#25295)
I think twice that number would get you the same results.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:36 - ID#22956)
**Bad Idea Bart**
Just charge us......

And I am thinking of calling the new wing *Kitner Hall*....or something like's that sound? go gold! meet deadlines

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:38 - ID#373346)
Some sort of limit seems very appropriate.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:40 - ID#41229)
Message limit
I for one would be opposed to a limit, I think it would detract from the sight. At times there maay be debates on ceertain items and if limited it would greatly reduce ability to present one point and counter point. Also the lenghts of posts would then increase significantly. IMHNO.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:41 - ID#189273)
Thanks for insisting that WSJ article yesterday should be seen. Picked it up at lunch. Put all together in one place, it was a powerful indictment. Janet Reno really fired all 96 U.S. Attorneys when she took office? That left the foxes guarding the henhouse all by themselves.

First time I've seen the mainstream media trying to create the big picture of corruption for mass consumption. The Green Mountain boys finally got some reinforcements.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:41 - ID#31868)
I agree with EB.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:42 - ID#224149)
Time is
Ted ----Relax---The C$ is Canadian the American is juice for the turds of never never land .

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:46 - ID#28861)
Limit Posts
Sell or trade your 3 posts. I'll set up a brokerage for others to buy and sell posts at Kitco. Away to determine reasonable fees.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:46 - ID#243180)
Allowing only 3 posts today would certainly provide a much more thoughful discussion since one would want to make numerous points within there allocation --HOWEVER-- what you'll promote is an extensive and prolific writing device that would cause the same ( if not more ) bandwidth problems for both you and the lurker.

As far as charging,,,,, why not waive it if a certain amount og PMs are purchased from KITCO,,,,,,,hmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,, one way of promoting the physicals and getting a few buck,,,,,,,,,

John Disney__A
(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:46 - ID#24135)
I think we police the site very well as it is.
To anybody
I like the site as it is without rules and regulations. Too
many rules spoil the atmosphere which I think is excellent
now. Like having to wear a tie at the horseraces - makes me
not go. If im hot on something I may post a lot ...some of it
may be of use to someone... at present I really dont have
anything to say other than I wish gold would go up.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:46 - ID#31868)
I must say that Mr. Starr has had cases with glaring evidence and has not taken the absolute tough line. Vince Foster is a classic example of lies, missing/destroyed evidence.

The fact that so many are now calling for much more stringent measures to be taken suggests at the least that he is not the right individual for the job.

If you are going to hire a dog, make sure it has teeth and big ones at that.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:47 - ID#254269)
Message limit; rather than limit the number of posts, can you limit the LENGTH
of some of the posts. That would "force" posters to be more concise. Part of the attraction of this site is the spontaneity and variety of posts here.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:48 - ID#224149)
Oh My ???

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:48 - ID#25295)
could you also show just the first page of a posting with the remainder available by request, like short text.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:51 - ID#254269)
Prometheus; my pleasure. It is a powerful article (WSJ yetserday. Got to go out for a while now. BBL

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:53 - ID#224149)
Goodnight ----This is post ----3

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:57 - ID#224149)
EB-----Get a life -----Post 4

(Fri Feb 13 1998 11:59 - ID#333131)
SDRer, Your post on Chinese Banks
So who does "various deposits" refer to? Are these crossed with each other do you think? Do the Chinese individual savers put their money in banks? Clearly they will have to liquidate these banks some time soon. I wonder how much "S&L" style hanky panky is represented by their enterprise loans. I suspect a lot and if so, what will be done may depend on how high in the government the stealing goes.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:00 - ID#20137)
Since the time is growing closer when comex will have no silver stocks closer, I am wondering if they will just upgrade to trading paper silver only?

The way the market is acting, it would seem someone believes that comex will continue with trading even when silver and gold stocks drop to zero. There seems tot be absolutely NO FEAR in the silver and gold pits. No one is worried about filling their shorts, making deliveries of bullion, or otherwise getting caught between the rock and a hard spot.

There is no need to list the troubles that the world is contending with at this time, but the list is incredibility long and serious. Japan HAS FAILED. They have delayed to long. It matters not anymore. Asia will continue down in a death spiral of currency devaluations and stock market crashes.

The U.S. can continue to stand smugly by pointing their finger and lecturing, but they are standing on quicksand. The danger is shown in the very strength that all marvel at. There is NO FEAR. What could possibly be more SCARY.

Buy your gold and your silver. Put it under your beds and watch them repeal the laws of nature. Trees will grow to the sky, want goes up won't come down,  fiat currencies will conquer ALL.

This is going to be a VERY NASTY affair. Good Luck to us all.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:02 - ID#335379)
Message Limit
Hello Bart:
I would not like to see a message limit. I like to follow the threads very carefully
and need the detail. I also think posts would lengthen in place of fewer posts.
I also have seen our faithful contributors be able to handle nonsense quit well.
Because of the short form I am able to glean material needed for the long haul of understanding an issue from the not to often chaf.
Please also consider the commradery important to building trust. For what good is sharing information if we are all suspisious of each other. ( Apply wisdom here of course ) . I enjoy this site tremendously throughout the day and often back-check threads to understand the nature of the questions and answers.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:04 - ID#20137)
Date: Fri Feb 13 1998 11:28
Bart Kitner ( Kitco ) ( Proposed Changes ) ID#26395:

It is a reasonable idea Bart. If you set the limit at say 10 posts per 8 hour period it would cover the majority of people. It might be worth a try.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:04 - ID#432157)
CHAS keep me posted real long and loving it.BAN-TSC

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:09 - ID#249453)
Bart-message limit/large postings
Since I mostly lurk , I would have no problem to the 5 message limit, but there are those who are addicted that would have major phsycological problems. ALSO, since bandwith is at a premium, I would like to suggest that all large articles of interest, found elsewhere on the web, be linked to rather than copied to this forum. It is just as easy to read a news story or such by following a link as it is to actually read a copied version posted on this forum.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:09 - ID#228128)
Bart: Its hard to make suggestions without really knowing the future directions that you plan for the site. Could you share that with us? My reasoning is that within a year or so gold is going to begin to move up in price and this site is going to become increasingly popular. Even now, its hard to squeeze in on a day when a big PM move occurs. What happens as usage of the site grows. Are you going to shell out the extra costs to accomodate all the newbies? Are you going to convert this site to a paid subscriber format only or something in the middle of those two options? I wonder if we are currently given access to this site for free in the hope that it one day generates revenues? Don't misunderstand, my intention is not to be critical but it would be useful to know what your plans are. I'm just a little curious as well. I have grown to count on the site as a place to pick up, in one stop shopping, the news relavent to precious metals. I wonder whether we can continue to depend on the site or should we expect change.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:10 - ID#413109)
Bart- Would like to add that limitations, such as those suggested
will not change the quality. The posters will just have to make
up their minds if they wish this site to be one of quality, or
quantity. Jokes, messages, opinions etc. can add or detract from
what you wish this site to represent.
Those involved should be mature enough to post when they have
something to say and not ruin a good thing.
Everyone should do a little more thinking before posting- and
all should be grateful to you, for continuing to be tolerant, and
understanding, considering what has been happening over the past
year or two. The posters that used to be regulars, and post no more,
are sorely missed, and as a result of the bitterness, recriminations
and the like, that we've experienced, we've all been the losers.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:13 - ID#224149)
Bart ?
Love all the idiots on this form ----Esp---Lgb-----Yes ---Yes

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:17 - ID#22956)
gold related......
hot off the wire....fwiw...stuff

not gold related...

poorboys - In my country that is an insult. Did you mean to insult me? And I thought we were all getting much for nafta and open borders......ALAS!, my friend ( not so sure ) have four tickets reserved regardless...uh huh. Now go take a nap and sleep it off.

John D. - I do agree with you regarding this sight. And you have season passes to the museum. But you must come to California. ANd bring your friend Oris. He can teach my bartender to pour Vodka....



(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:21 - ID#410194)
I disagree

One of the key ingredient to the high quality discussions here is mostly due to spontaneity and freedom to share whenever one feels doing so.

I disagree with limitations of the amount of posts.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:23 - ID#31868)
Helping EB stay on schedule with TED
I am calling all of the individuals on the hill, yes the big hill and informing them of Public Law 97, 67th Congress, Session 1, Chapter 135, 1921 wherein unsuspecting soverigns turn their children into Federal Children by filling out a birth certificate/registering their children.

The registration is eventually forwarded to an IMF International Monetary Fund building in Europe. YOUR CHILD'S FUTURE LABOR AND PROPERTIES ARE PUT UP AS COLLATERAL FOR THE PUBLIC DEBT.

Every dollar given to the IMF comes directly out of your child's pocket when they don't even know what a pocket is.

EB, I will have to check with STUDIO_R and see if the golden sword shimmers or vibrates relative to the idea of having the defiler of dogs bottoms gold plated.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:25 - ID#210235)
It would be a shame if you had to limit number of posts. No more "good morning" posts. The conversational and friendly sense of small-town living would be shot.

Now, the occasional snake-oil salesman who comes by and dominates the discussion group is a nuisance. And it takes annoyingly long for the town elders to chase 'em out of town. In the old days, such imposters took money with them. Now it's Email names on a list. New believers. How to handle this problem would be an excellent discussion topic for weekends, when the markets are closed.

Seeing as how this town sits next to a really big highway, we may need a sheriff, Bart. A sheriff would also get the occasional guy having a really bad day and braying about it into the drunk tank 'til he cooled off.

If it's a money thing, let's see how it breaks down for us to carry our share of the band width. Maybe the price of a sheriff, too.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:25 - ID#20748)
Leave it open and uninhibited,just as it is. Even the village idiots are 'our' village idiots.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:25 - ID#410198)
Bart:Don't fall for the socialist's agenda they hate freedom of speech

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:31 - ID#224149)
How Come You Know Everything?
EB---NoWay ---Yes you are great !!!! Away to have a Nap.

The Hermit
(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:33 - ID#374232)
Bart Kitner (Kitco) - your 11:28
Speaking as an observer ( lurker ) here at Kitco, I must say I would hate to see any change which would spoil the atmosphere as it now exists. This site is an excellent source for access to the world's fast changing financial and political information. For example, Donald's and Steve@Perth's posts.

If there does have to be a change I agree with EB ( 11:36 ) and tolerant1 ( 11:41 ) , charge a fee for access. I would not be opposed to paying for access to the Kitco site. However, I am sure this would cause a change in the atmosphere by limiting some of the participants.

Thank you for your superior site! It is much appreciated.

The Hermit

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:36 - ID#270315)
Looks as if gold is going onto the long weekend stronger.
This is a good sign for people to see over the long weekend.
I would like people to see Peter Munks comments, if any one person knows where Gold is goiing it's this man. Oh and maybe Warren Buffet and George Soros also know. John Kaplan had Peter Monk quoted on Wednesday saying; that the supply and demand equation looks favourably upon golds price, and he said that when gold does catch up it will be much more profound than silvers price runnup.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:44 - ID#342282)
Haggis re my email
If you read this, please let me know tyhe date of my last to you. I have had a ton of trouble with email. when I know my address, I'll continue to you. Thanx

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:49 - ID#410198)
How long before they start talking about a GOLD STANDARD

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:53 - ID#333131)
Bart on proposed change
I am quite willing to ignore the chat that doesn't interest me in order to have access to the many informational posts which appear, often in strings of posts by the same poster. Your proposed plan would also interfere ( potentially ) with alerts to news that are often timely and useful. Best Wishes and Thanks for your site in any form. Carl

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:53 - ID#270315)
TO: tolerant1
I like what I see in Clifton mining, However; I believe Eldorado Gold has far more gold reserves. ELD on TSE is currently producing 290,000.00 ounces' of gold per annuam from the three mines it has in operation. They expect to be at 1,000,000.00 ounces per year by the year 2000, and their stock is only $.12 more than that of Clifton Mining.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 12:58 - ID#197307)
Cherokee, report today says est. 2 billion drop in
grain exports to Asia,hm echo's of your bear call.This site seems
to be pretty well policed,biggest problem is when the
markets are really jumping and problems like that we
should have.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:00 - ID#410198)
How long before they start talking about a GOLD STANDARD

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:01 - ID#269409)
@ Bart, 3 post limit
I think such a limit would squelch some important discussions and adversely affect the long term quality of the group. Self policing works best. If we can just get the ZIVA's of the world to stop posting 800 words X 8 multiple identical posts........

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:04 - ID#258129)
I do not post often and number of my posts are below any reasonable limit. Still I want to add my voice to those, who voted against a limit on number ( or length ) of messages. When registration took place, Kitco lost some valuable posters. In my opinion, Kitco half a year ago, without any limitations, was much better place then now. New limitations will have the same result, and may be even stronger one. While reading valuable PM information, it is nice sometimes to fine a joke or simply an emotional message, when gold or silver goes up. Or political news just in time. If number of messages will be limited, it will make this site less human, less attractive and it will loose more interesting participants. And those, who left will count "How many messages I have posted today and should I reply on this one" Bad idea.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:06 - ID#410114)
3 posts
Excellent idea!! I'm all for it. It will get rid of attack posts and the even more idiotic responses to them.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:08 - ID#227238)
@ post limits.
Bart: Placing a limitation on the number of posts per day would, IMO, seriously degrade the quality of the discussion. Many times quality responses are in very short form, following more lengthy discussion. It would be a shame to lose that.

This morning's changes are certainly in the correct direction. There has never been a need for the full proceedings , with every entry of "Reload".

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:08 - ID#28593)
Midas, "...why Ron Brown went down..."
I heard that when 'his' special prosecutor was appointed, RB told
VJ he ( RB ) wasn't going down alone....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:12 - ID#270315)
To: robnoel
I agree with you 100% it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if their is nothing physical backing your currency ( gold ) then it is open and vulnerable to all sorts of attacks and devaluations.
If they ( Indonnesia ) had put in place a gold reserve their currency would be backed by $us denominated gold. I am quite certain these aisian
countries will use gold to start strengthening thier currencies, it's no longer a matter of choice.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:13 - ID#287207)
BART: I greee with the 3 posts per 24 hour idea. It is a rare event to have 3 posts of substance from 1 person in 24 hours.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:14 - ID#36156)
Bart (11:28)
Bart - This is important enough to flush me out of my hole! Limiting
the posts on this fabulous site is not a healthy idea. I am a lurker
who keeps to the background for reasons of subject matter inadequacy,
but who has derived immeasurable knowledge, insight AND delight in the
expertise and repartee of your contributors.

What makes Kitco so special is the very thing you now propose to
restrict - free and un-encumbered discussions full of healthy
sprinklings of humor, philosophy, spontaneity and irreverence. Even
the off-subjects hold a measure of relevance when they are discussed
by THIS august group.

I for one would be willing to pay ( lurker fees? ) to maintain the
status-quo. In the meantime, I donate my 5 posts/day to the sages of
this fine site. Perhaps one day I'll feel qualified to impose upon
their guidance.

I'll go back into my hole now ...Go Gold!!!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:15 - ID#57232)
Currency Baskets
D.A. : Appreciate your 10:11.

D.A.SDRer,All: So the CB's worst mightmare is a currency basket -- but that is the very thing we need to keep credit and inflation under control -- a commodity - based currency ( of sorts ) . I find this incredible, as this is a far cry from demanding that all banks operate under the rules of the BIS, where all paper money is firmly linked to gold. We may come to this eventually.

The very phenomenon that created much of the financial crisis in SEAsai was uncontrolled debt and fluctuations in the dollar. But -- no we cannot go to a system that would prevent this -- we must perpetuate the very same flawed system that created the problem in the first place.

And -- the IMF does not see the folly of what they are doing -- with the wolves practically at the door. Russia will be next, then some major South American country, or Mexico, followed by a Chinese devaluation.

I wonder at what point the 'powers that be' will let go of their flawed financial belief system. Only after nothing is left but ashes?

If we are correctly reading this apparent mind set, the 'powers that be 'are acting like lemmings. I know AG understands all of this, but he must be in the minority. No wonder ANOTHER says what he says.

Early Riser
(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:23 - ID#228275)
Bart: I also vote no. If you have to do something, maybe limit the volume per post. I haven't seem many for which 1000 words wasn't enough to get the point across.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:24 - ID#429245)
Bart; on limitations
Bart-- I am mostly a lurker, so the limit would probably never bother me. I have appreciated your site greatly. Just yesterday I told a friend about it saying that one tends to stumble around the internet, falling on interesting items now and then. But if you find a site like Kitco ( and there is no site like it that I know of ) , that site brings a focus to the internet experience. Those with similar interests work in concert to bring information together and discuss it. How wonderful.

When you start to control people, things get complicated. Complicated solutions are required. The process takes over, and the most valuable aspects, freedom, spontaneity, general joie de vie are lost.

I would vote for leaving the site as it is and charging a fee if necessary. I would even suggest fee by donation as a start to see if it works. Some can afford more than others, and wealth does not necessarily mean quality. Tell me where I can send my twenty-five bucks. ( Please say what would be reasonable ) .

As a measure of control over the really irritating posters, ( if control must be used, which I would rather not see ) , then how about a voting system. I know it could be part of the background programming of the site and could work automatically according to a set of known rules. For example:

1. The world is perfect and everyones posts are unlimited.
2. An irritating, off topic poster arrives and throws a wrench in things.
3. Voting system kicks in: ten posts a day that include the format xxx ziva xxx bar that person for the rest of the day. Five barred days in a month and theyre toast.
4. A voter abuses the system and starts trying to kick everyone off, so votes are counted. Any voter voting more than three times a day gets kicked off for the day.
5. The world is a perfect place again.

Once again, I think this site is something very special. You have made a real contribution to all who use it. Thanks.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:25 - ID#243180)
@Bart,,,talk about binary results!!!!
Your idea of limitations fit the guidelines of truly binary responses,,,,yes because,,,, absolutely not since,,,,,,-no middle ground here, eh!. Abortion and Clinton's troubles are in the same genre.....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:25 - ID#7568)

In keeping with our faith, we have added another nice chunk of way out of the money gold calls to our burgeoning pile. Interestingly enough we encountered some resistance with our desire to have the calls be redeemable in physical metal. It would appear that some dealers have gotten the notion that there is a remote possibility that physical metal could actually be more scarce than paper. I am happy to report that we did ultimately find a willing seller.

After three precious metals squeeezes, some are waking up the possibility of a fourth. Good thing there are still some sleepy heads.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:37 - ID#358318)
Bart (Kitco) 11:28
If you consider it necessary to limit posts, why not limit the total number of bytes posted in a given period ( shouldn't be a hard problem for your programmer! )

This would encourage people to post BRIEFLY: The shorter their posts, the more posts they can make. It would also help towards eliminating repetitious posts, and posts that needlessly repeat previous messages. A brief message packs a punch.

"Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best
of all."
Sir Winston Churchill

"Brevity is the soul of wit"
Shakespeare ( Hamlet ac.2, sc.2 )

"'...My Dear Mary I will now conclude'.
That's all," said Sam.
"That's rather a sudden pull up, ain't it, Sammy?"
inquired Mr. Weller.
"Not a bit on it," said Sam; "she'll wish there was more, and that's the great art o' letter writin'."
Charles Dickens: Pickwick Papers

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:40 - ID#23782)
Thanks for all your excellent comments and analysis. I have learned much. I understand that your trading is based on propriatary mathematical models. Is that the case for the calls?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:42 - ID#340459)
War option decried by 2 CIA directors and losing support in Congress as well, Time says
WASHINGTON: It's virtually a
mathematical ratio: The more
warplanes fly to the Gulf, the more
doubt and opposition increases at
home. As the Air Force dispatched whole squadrons
of F-16s and B-52s  throwing in a B-1 for good
measure  the Capitol bore witness to antiwar
protests from the most surprising sources.

For instance, you'd never expect two former
directors of the CIA to start chanting "Hell, no, we
won't go." But when James Woolsey and John
Deutsch went before a House committee Thursday,
their protests were no less explosive. "The problem
with Iraq will not be solved by an air campaign," said
Deutsch. Woolsey complained that even if we did
want air strikes, Saddam had been given too much
warning: "This may be the most telegraphed punch in
military history," he added.

In fact, not even Madeleine Albright's cheerful
utopian vision of a post-Saddam Iraq could coax
Congress into voting on a resolution of support, and
they left for a weeklong President's Day break
without so much as discussing it. Three senators
have already turned on, tuned in and dropped out of
supporting the President on military action, and more
look set to join them. If a vote were taken now, "we
wouldn't get it," admitted a glum Trent Lott.

He should know  it's senators on his side of the
aisle who are most vocal in their opposition. "The
question is, how does Saddam come out of whatever
military force we use?" asked Arlen Specter ( R-Pa ) .
Good question, and one which the White House 
ironically, occupied by a president who was
unsupportive on Vietnam  is unwilling to answer.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:44 - ID#194311)
SDRer, JTF Currencies gone to hell in a basket.....
that's the problem. New Zealand has overhauled it's currency in the mid eighties going to the basket system and this is core to it's economic success since then. Many economist have touted NZ as a model of freer trade. The one thing they avoided looking at was the curency set up at the heart of the system. This is the only way to open up your borders while retaining sovereignity of the the currency....but in the end if the whole basket ( US, Mark, Franc ) goes to hell then all paper fails....then what. All currencies have some gold backing and the BIS has total gold backing...the basket system is the best there is beyond a commodity backing as long as the basket is mostly commodity backed.
With China shaping to dump a deluge of bad loans on the world banking system, the basket is indeed threatened.....the year of the Dragon and it's fiery breath will burn the paper peddlers with their own fuel. Only the golden phoenix will rise from the ashes.

Goodbye all, this kiwi is taking flight.
Our journey has been an interesting and educating experience. Now that the system and it's workings are clear to me ( many thanks SDRer, JTF, DA, and others ) I feel a new beginning. As with science a once fundamental and obvious truth ( money must be tied to a finite commodity ) has become extended mistakenly to the modern day twisted use it now takes, probably causing many of the injustices in the world ( rich poor gap, uneven distribution of wealth, hunger, etc ) . But as also with science a new paradigm is emerging and all of the follies of the old will be blown away like so many layers of dust on the books of Archimedes and Confuscius, those innocents who reasoned without preconceptions.

Away to be immersed in fibbonnaci numbers, greek golden ratios, the harmony of vibrating vortex filaments ( strings ) in space-time, golden spirals and the invention of truths for a new age.

Bottoms up lads, have a Jin 'n tonic for me too.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:45 - ID#93232)
@Dear Bart,
I spill more than three posts each day....unforunately. The contributing talent at this site should be nurtured not impeded and if the forum becomes an uneconomical venture, it will die and spring back to life in another field and in another season. It is my opinion that some of the hard-working, more-talented posters here should be paid for their creation...but I exist in a business environ of valued intellectual property. Thank you for this site and I pray for its continued well being.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:46 - ID#7568)

Central bankers are just like the rest of us. A little power goes a long way. These guys have enormous power and egos to match. If the world went to a system where credit was allocated entirely by the market, they would be out of a job. Kind of sucks to be told you're not needed, but there it is.

This would of course have an enormously deleterious effect upon my own business which thrives in part because of the predictability of the currency game. Better keep my nose to the grindstone, someday there might not be any currencies to trade.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:48 - ID#252127)
One of the Sultans of the Swat; the swatting of goldbugs that is,

may be on his last leg, may he be bestowed with a lifetime of the misery he created.......bye Andy.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:49 - ID#197307)
I assume they are closed Monday and from the looks of
price monitors here and other sites,I think they are
gone for the long weekend,see ja !

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:57 - ID#286279)
Bart, All
What puts the biggest strain on resources, the number of posts or the length of posts?

Consider a nnn post per month type limit.

Consider a short text mode format only but have a nn word paragraph ( synopsis ) instead of a sentence as it is now. This would encourage everyone to keep it brief but still allow for longer posts. You could combine this option with a nn post per day limit to discourage idle chit chat, flaming, etc. You can easily fine tune the number of posts-per-day limit, hopefully you will find it unnecessary to have one at all.

Consider reversing the order of the posts so that one can read them by simply scrolling down.

I wouldnt mind paying a reasonable charge for access but wont the logistics be a nasty headache for all? Wouldnt a large % of the money be used just to maintain the system to collect the dues?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:57 - ID#93232)
Good post....come back now ya' here.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 13:59 - ID#7568)

Our purchase of the gold calls is based on nothing more than our seat of the pants analysis. There's no magic here, just a dollar ( lots of them actually ) and a dream.

We go the call route rather than a leveraged spot or futures position, mostly so we can define the risk. In this way we can take x percent of our portfolio and allocate it to the trade, and close our eyes. Psychologically this gets one out of the trap of allowing price to change ones convictions after all analysis has been done. In looking back at the silver run, I don't know how we would have reacted to the violent selloff from 6.40 to 5.40 had our position been a large futures position. In retrospect I'm glad we didn't have to think about it.

The other point of owning the calls is my oft posited position that way out of the money and time calls in commodities are mispriced by the market.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:01 - ID#237299)
Bart- proposed changes
As a long time lurker, and recently beginning to post, I have found the
the quality of information from all quarters very informative.

I would vote for a fee, rather than a limit. If cash would enable you to
upgrade lines and server I would gladly pay. It seems that *most* here have
a finacial interest in metals. I make my living daily because of the
royal yellow metal- and am also invested heavily in physical. Because
timely information is critical, a fee is a small thing to cough up. Besides,
if, according to common wisdom, this day of financial ( stock mkt ) correction
occurs- that would be the *very* time that blocked bandwidth would could
be disasterous. ( during the last correction it was hard to access anything
on line )

You have graciously provided your equipment and line fees to many to use.

Thank you for the forum.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:01 - ID#271238)
Bart@limited posts
Bart, I think this is a great site as it is. The thing that confuses me is why would anyone complain about the number of posts from any of the contributors. If, in the past, someone has grown to fervently disagree with the posts of someone in particular, just skip 'em. But, human nature being what it is, people like to have things to bitch about. There are a few on here that I don't always agree with but I always read them. Just because they're wrong doesn't make them a bad person.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:05 - ID#318118)
@ Bart
I am a very infrequent poster to your site. However, I do read at least
10 to 12 hours of the input to the site per day. I come to your site to gain knowledge for my investing. Lately it seem that 40% or so of the post have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of PM's.

I believe that limiting posts per day is one way of bringing the site back to its original intent. An other option is banning of individuals
who abuse the priviledge, assuming you have a way of not allowing certain E-Mail addresses to sign in. I am in favor of some action so that my time can be used more efficiently!!!! Thank you Bart for the opportunity to provide input.

bernatz du ventadorm
(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:08 - ID#259191)
Bart - the more you institute my suggestions (registration, limits on posts/day)
The better this site becomes, and the more people see how
beneficial I have been to this site. For everyone whining
about how registration drove people away, please give the
names of people who no longer post here ( posting now
under a different handle obviously doesn't count ) . For everyone
whining about how posts shouldn't be limited, seek help
from Talkers Anonymous. D.A. doesn't post more than
five times a day ever, RJ doesn't post more than five times
a day unless provoked, I am very happy to post five times
a month. A limit would end the mindless drivel of Cherrytree,
John "Wacky" Disney, and the pomposity of SquEarl, who
use this forum for their own chat room.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:12 - ID#263328)

Afraid to admit I lurk daily?
Using that bandwidth you know. But,
I must say the posters are the blood
of this thread. Why should they be
limited--us lurkers should be coughing
up the bucks for the opportunity to
read their thoughts--from Puetz to LGB,
and all in between.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:20 - ID#340459)
To US, the so called champion of free World,
THE Clinton Administration's phobia against Iraq and Mr.
Saddam Hussein is being taken to extremes. Lack of legitimacy,
norms of civilised conduct, loss of lives, devastation of whole
economies of poor nations, world opinion - nothing seems to
matter in the eyes of the US and the few hapless stooges it has
been able to line up in support of launching a massive military
strike against Iraq.

This is all of a piece with the chest-thumping that has come to
characterise the overlordship of the world that the US has
assumed following the demise of the Soviet Union.

The age-old doctrine of might being right has been firmly put in
place in justification of any action that the US wishes to embark
on to show who is the boss.

In its perverse judgment, anyone who refuses to submit meekly
to its dictates based on its own self-centred political, economic,
social and cultural prescriptions ought to be mercilessly brought
to heel.

It has arrogated to itself the right to thrust down the throats of
other nations its own definitions of human rights, democracy,
free market, trade, tariffs, nuclear non-proliferation, military
strength, diplomatic conduct - in short, everything that formerly
used to be left to be decided by common consent after
exhaustive consultations among members of the international

Its Congressmen and Senators blithely build into its laws
provisions that are tantamount to blatant encroachment on the
sovereign rights of other nations to determine their own
domestic policies.

Any country that crosses its path faces its wrath in the form of
economic and other sanctions, and as in the case of Cuba, Libya
and Iraq, threats of attack and annihilation. Thanks to its wealth,
power and hold over the media, it is able to brainwash the world
with its hagiology and demonology: Despite its flaunted love for
democracy and human rights, it is prepared to see saintly halos
round military dictators so long as they serve its goals and

But woe betide those who assert their independence! The Soviet
Union becomes an ``evil empire'' and leaders such as Fidel
Castro, Qaddafi and Saddam Hussein the very devils incarnate.
Regrettably, there are people in influential positions in various
walks of life in many countries of the world who unthinkingly
accept these denunciations as the last word.

The US and its cohorts are now baying for Iraq's blood
ostensibly on the pretext of enforcing some resolutions imposed
on the hapless members of the Security Council by sheer
diplomatic blackmail.

Year after year for more than 40 years, South Africa was
defying the UN by persisting with its oppressive apartheid
violating every canon of human rights and democracy and very
nearly snuffing out the life of Mr. Nelson Mandela.

Why did the US and other Western nations not use their
combined military might to obliterate the racist white regime and
put an end to the worst form of barbarism the world had ever

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:21 - ID#238295)
Bart: You may want to place limits on activities by the week, not be the day. When the market is moving sharply-- whether up or down -- a daily limit will make this site considerably less valuable. Also suggest you limit the number of posted words, not posts per se.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:25 - ID#333232)
A man's got to know his limitations
Personally, 1 post per week wouldn't bother *me* - but there are prolific contributors who would better be served ( or serve themselves ) with a much higher per day limit.

Why not a per-character-posted fee? ( bandwidth usage fee )
Why not a graduated posts/characters-per-day paid membership program?

Is it the "writing" or the "reading" which incurs the higher cost?
A posting fee or a lurking fee?

Bottom line: The value of the forum was never in question - but the price now is.

It's Bart's game, and "he who has the gold makes the rules"...good luck! : )

In the meantime I'll give a vote to 5 posts per day.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:27 - ID#243180)
I recently grabbed another 1000 shares of HM,,, excuse to check out web site...
,,,and wondering,,,,,anyone ever visit the McLaughlin Mine:

Is it worth the trip ????


(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:28 - ID#266105)
@on the road again

Ought-ought. Frisco bound on Sunday, jack atcha later
'til then maybe.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:29 - ID#243180)
The New Rules ,,,,
Will ANOTHER's handlers provide the fee for the New Kitciotus Paradigm ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:29 - ID#270315)
To All:
Check out AEO on TSE there is a huge amount of block trades going on here, and they announced that they are in the progress of a significant property aquisition. Every institution in Vancouver is buying and selling it. Does anyone out there have any further info on this company?

PS It's nice to see gold end the week on a positive note, especially before a long weekend.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:30 - ID#298259)
To Bart...
If your objective is to keep the focus of discussions here to the key issues of gold and precious metals...limiting the number of posts made does nothing to ensure this objective...policing the "content" of the posts does.

Your comments to ZIVA regarding the content of what she was posting is more likely the cause of her departure than was your lack of response to her regarding the comments made by oris.

Some of the posters here have far too much to offer in regard to the topic at hand to "limit" their participation. Besides, on off-beat comment or joke made here and there helps to digest the richness of the intellect many provide at this site.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:34 - ID#340459)
Mr. Clinton, USA is supposed to be the GUARANTOR of Mid East Peace Accord's, Why do you wet your
pants before Israel ( non-compliance of 69 UN resolutions ) and show strength elsewhere. Blasphemy against God is welcome in USA but questioning Holocaust is greater sin than denigrating christianity.
Hollywood has depicted holy Cross and other subliminal symbols and messages while depicting serial killers and other scum, yet the pulpit is silent because it is afraid. Disney World now has "Gay Day" and talks family entertainment in same breath. It is going fast down the tubes...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:34 - ID#254269)
Russia says no; Has Clinton painted himself into a corner on Iraq ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:36 - ID#238295)
Midas: Your latest post says it all re: Clinton and Iraq. Now that the UN fig leaf has been thrust aside, US can now longer its disguise contempt for world opinion and its open desire for world domination. This crisis has nothing to do with any weapons Iraq may or may not have, but is aimed at establishing total US and Israeli control of the Middle East and its oil supplies. A secondary motive is to divert public attention from the President's ever widening web of scandals.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:38 - ID#93232)
Your 14:20 is an outstanding thought-provoking raises some very hard questions for we Americans to answer. Thank you.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:40 - ID#243180)
OBSERVATION: I have several "Saints" ( 1925, 1926, etc ) sitting in my desk drawer since I haven't had time to put them "in their unconfiscatable place" recently. Over the years I've purchased them,,, looked them over,,, put them away,,,, periodically, check 'em out,,,, put 'em away again. When I look at these for long periods ( as I did today ) I ponder over what we have lost since those glorious financial times. It really inspires me to push my level of acquiring PM physicals toward higher heights in my asset allocation mix.

QUESTION: Over my entire collection I have a mix of PCGS and NGC. Are there advantages of owning one over the other. If I ever go to auction ( hope to never do so ) is it more desirable to have only one type grading service and one grade for "Saints". I almost have a complete set and I'm wondering if I should concentrate on 2 seperate sets; 1 PCGS & 1 NGC.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:45 - ID#57232)
Currency Baskets, Strings and Predictive models
Kiwi: Enjoyed your post - I keep forgetting your and my backgrounds are similar. You mentioned 'golden ratios' and 'fibonacci series' and what i would call the 'new physics' -- probably 'new science' or 'new reality' would be more appropriate. Have you looked at Daubuchet ( sp? ) Wavelets, or Wavepackets? In my opinion these could be very useful in predicting future movements of a market ( or any time series, for that matter ) , since wavepacket sets can be time - discrete ( like a quantum element ) . Do you have a good reference on what sort of wavepacket sets are most useful in market predictions? Daubuchet wavelets are not better at predicting than Fourier analysis ( lousy ) . But they do make great signal averagers -- no phase shift!
I know wavepacket ( not wavelet ) analyses are being used to predict market behavior, but I can't get anything except vague references.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:46 - ID#318321)
@limits to posts
Maybe Bart would like to investigate limits on posting during peak use times. For example during the day he may limit it to one post per hour. However in the middle of the night ( E.S.T. ) the limit could be upped or even eliminated. Tailor the limitation to when demand is greatest. Just my $0.02.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:50 - ID#243180)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:56 - ID#340459)
Thanks, Studio R and Old Gold for possessing an open mind and keeping it pure from brainwashing by
US media.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:57 - ID#227290)
(KMTMAN & Aurado
I never heard of the company before I read your post. You are right, every brokerage house is active in the stock today.
It has risen apprx. 33%.

Below is the latest press release. I'll find out more.

The Preacher

William P. Dickie, Director of AURADO EXPLORATION LTD announces that The Toronto Stock Exchange has requested that Aurado Exploration Ltd. ( "Aurado" ) update shareholders due to recent activity in the market. Aurado is working on a significant property acquisition. At this point in time no deal has been signed and there is no guarantee of one being completed. Aurado will update the market if and when details become available. Aurado expects to be drilling on its Setting Net Lake project within thirty Days.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:57 - ID#227238)
Thanks Hep. At least you put me in good company. BTW, the full expression is: Silly, affected, ineffectual and "pompous".

Your most humble and obedient servant, E

(Fri Feb 13 1998 14:58 - ID#93232)
@T#1 and EB (two of the underpaid posters IMO).....
Regarding the installation of the thinly gold-plated, gutted-carcass of Andy Smith at the entrance of the Wink Museum...I sense that the golden sword of justice doesn't like this at all. Why?
When you conceived this thought, the rapier began to glow with radiant energy and burned a hole in the Guitar World magazine that it rested upon...being a quick thinker....I immediately thought, the Smith carcass could be used as a urinal....or even better...a crapper. This settled the sword down a bit. Then I thought... the head opening could be used as a urinal and the gut wound....a crapper. The sword is now seemingly content.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:00 - ID#254269)
Where is the Wink Museum ? Is it in Golden .........(Colorado) ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:01 - ID#227238)
D.A.: I was struck by your earlier comment on calls and the desire to redeem same in physical. I have labored under the impression that exercised calls are always satisfied with physical. What am I overlooking?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:04 - ID#197184)
Vanity number Bart??

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:06 - ID#57232)
Wavelets url
WetGold: Many thanks -- will keep me out of trouble for hours! This will be useful for time series analysis in my day ( real ) job, too.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:10 - ID#432361)
I think charging ( donating ) for access and some form of voting system are the answers. Alternatively those who pay can vote someone else out. You could have two levels of participants voting and nonvoting. I personally would be willing to pay for access. I would hate to see anything happen
to the spontenaity or the news posts ( yes I even miss Vronsky! - although the solution for that is to limit "advertising" to one post per day or something.. ) .

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:10 - ID#266105)
@dunno, found it in one of the labs/feignman

Physics bookmarked for later perusal, thanks. Off to
the beach for stroll with m'dog Lady. Nothing's ever resolved
but the dog likes it.

Barb Hughes
(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:10 - ID#20783)

US wholesale Long Weekend Spot Silver @ $7.00.

My opinion $100 per month base fee for site use & at least $500 per month for the snake oil salesmen...this would be very reasonable for them as I am unaware of ( a specific audiance location ) that advertising would cost less. Myself I pay no less than $600 to $1000 per ad. My bill is around $7000 to $10000+ per month.

This site offers an invaluable amount of information to ALL. It's a shame Bart's previous requests to keep this site non-commercial were disreguarded and even ridiculed.

The intelligence factor at this site is truly amazing. I personally would like to thank all that contribute, all that lurk and speak up once in awhile, and especially Bart.

Take care...Barb

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:10 - ID#93232)
Saint Diego, Californeeia! I am touring March 22nd...see ya' there.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:11 - ID#333232)
JTF: more busy hours wavepacket query

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:11 - ID#93130)
Limitation of Posts

As you are aware, the issue of a limitation on posts is not addressing the main issue of your concern, but rather is merely placing a bandage on a sore which you have not directly addressed but alluded to on a number of occasions. And that is: "Are posts responsive to the goal or purpose for which this site was created?". If the goal was to have a site primarily for discussion "directly related to gold or other precious metals as a commodity or financial instrument", ( as opposed to stocks or coins to be discussed in other forums ) , as the preamble to this site contends, then clearly posts are increasingly infringing on this policy. More often then not, posts now deal with stocks or coins suitable for other Kitco forums, or with politics, personal opinions and idle inane chit-chat on topics having little if any relationship to the metals. Obviously, those participants who make and enjoy reading such posts would like them to continue. And if such posters are permitted to dictate content, then where does it stop - and is the Kitco goal and policy being circumvented and dictated by what a consensus of the participants desire, rather than by Kitco itself. This is something obviously only you can answer. If the posts were limited to the stated context as set forth in the Kitco preamble, then seemingly bandwidth would not be a problem. I personally find increasingly more posts having little to do with the stated objective of this forum and conversely less posts by former posters which did. I do not say this is good or bad, nor do I dare to relate what I believe the purpose of this forum should be, as this is your decision as the provider of the site. But I do recognize the difficulty of knowing how to place boundaries, let alone control it, on what is deemed appropriate as being related to "gold or other precious metals as a commodity or financial instrument" which is really the rub. Importantly, I wish to make known that I recognize and appreciate your courtesy and thoughtfulness to posters in an attempt to satisfy the consensus. Good Luck!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:12 - ID#432361)
Bart, I have to second what Barb has just said. This site is truely amazing.

Richard Burke
(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:12 - ID#411318)
Tolerant1: thank you for Clifton reference. Proven & probable for just gold and silver, not including lead now at capitalization/equiv gold oz of $108 which is $50 too high in my mind except that the current p&p only represents a possible 10% of the total reserves in the one area. Value per ton of first 488,000 tons is $204, half of which is lead ( assuming 12%@$0.45/lb. Based on $80.00 per ton net ( from their broker ) the present 250 tpd mill will produce an eps of $0.36 less admin. or 2.5 times present price.These are my rough calculations and no one should depend on them, but it does indicate the company is worth looking at further.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:16 - ID#28585)
What do you know my Haggard friend...ominous telephone conference call on Monday?

Another Pegasus in the making?????

Richard Burke
(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:17 - ID#411318)
Limiting Posts
Bart: I do not post a lot- not even every day - but I think it would be a mistake to limit posts - even size. Sometimes one needs to go back and forth to complete discussion of a matter - and this can take several of posts. You provide a useful and appreciated service - thank you.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:17 - ID#243180)
California,,, leading edge,,,, solving Y2K in 1 year,,, let it be said ,,,
I've always been suspicious of the money being thrown around to fix this problem. Here's another example,,,,An Executive Order signed in Late 1997 to resolve a problem in 1 year with STATE WORKERS and ADMINISTRATORS.

Come On,,,, somebody's brother-in-law and cousin's consulting firms aren't on the take ??? .. hmmmmmmmm ...

"NOW, THEREFORE, I, PETE WILSON, Governor of the State of California, bv virtue of the power and authority vested in me by the Constitution and statutes of the State of California, do hereby issue this order to become effective immediately:
2.Each agency of the State shall be responsible to find and fix Year 2000 problems in its essential systems. in accordance with the Department of Information Technology's California 2000 Program, no later than December 31, 1998.
4.The Department of Information Technology shall continue to coordinate the State's information technology Year 2000 Program. The department shall:
a.Define Year 2000 compliance standards for the State.
b.Require quarterly reports from each State agency that is not Year 2000 compliant.
e.Foster solutions to the problems presented by embedded microchips in automated devices.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:17 - ID#340459)
Bart, Let the free thoughts flow and we all remain thankful for this forum that helps ease our
collective anxieties in these most stressful of times

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:21 - ID#270315)
Preacher; were you able to find out any more?
On AEO on TSE?

PH in LA
(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:24 - ID#225408)
Reorganisation? Handle with Care!!
I would like to second the idea brought up by Frustrated. The major problem with Ziva's moronic ramblings was content, not length or frequency. Which one of us would seek to limit ANOTHER or D.A. or any of a number of others?

Unfortunately, where we need limitations is on the stupidity factor of some posters. This becomes a bit subjective at times...what for some are pearls of wisdom are garbage for others. However, when the stupidity factor gets too high it becomes obvious.

The case of Ziza is a perfect example. Others could be cited ad nauseum but I limit myself to the following from yesterday:
Date: Thu Feb 12 1998 17:06
Poster's ID deleted. ( GOLD HAS BOTTOMED ) ID#xxxxxx:
Physical demand is extremely high at
anything under $300 gold. The midas
has seen bottom at $280. A large sell
off is not going to come anytime soon.
Good investing and go gold. ( not too
high ) .

and ask:

What evidence ( besides the poster's passion ) is cited for Gold's bottom? Such a conclusion is agonized over by experts and not fully provable until long afterward. What point is to be gained by posting ( or reading ) such an assertion? And why $280 for a bottom? Until When? "A large sell off is not going to come anytime soon." Oh really? Who says so and why? etc. This is intelectual graffitti. Nothing more. Posts such as this should be withheld voluntarily. If they persist in the face of resistence from the members of the forum, let the program delite them. If we are subjected to this kind of empty-headedness long enough, many posters and lurkers will leave.

The discussion group as it presently works is, for the most part, inspirational, informative and interesting. Any changes should address specific problems and not rely on mindless limits. Otherwise we will all suffer as we did when the graffitti artists attacked us last time bringing with their attack registration which has restricted the forum considerably ever since.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:25 - ID#273112)
Alternative to limiting postings; Vronksy, are you listening?
You can kill two birds with one stone: set up an area of your golden-eagle web site just like this Kitco board.

You will divert load from Bart's site, and achieve greater advertising prescence. This will help Bart offload the burden of having a few hundred thousand hits a day & concomitant prescence in public mind.

You can even charge a fee for "full-text" message reading.

You can even offer Barb Hughes advertising space.

Spuds, admiring a painting of Caesar Borgia...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:25 - ID#243180)
@JTF,,,time-series analysis,,,,
What;s the application for your analysis,,,,?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:26 - ID#287280)

Of Kiwi, Shakespeare speaks , He was a gentleman on whom I built
An absolute trust.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:29 - ID#227290)
More on Aurado

Aurado ( AEO.Toronto ) has traded 1.6 million shares today.
The acquisition mentioned in the press release I posted 30 minutes ago refers to a piece of property right next to the Tech/Western Copper discovery in Mexico.
I have written about this before. Two other companies already with adjacent properties are Kalahari Resources and Global Mineral and Chemical.
It looks like Aurado has gotten the ground that excites the market. It's the talk of Vancouver today.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:29 - ID#373403)
"I think it's a good idea and that it would result in our group becoming more of a discussion group and less of a chat site."

If this is the goal then a fee or cover charge would weed out outsiders. I am not sure about the distinction between discussion group and chat group and why a limit of posts would change this.

Maybe there should be a focus on stopping the jokes and personnal messages. Channel police.

As a sidenote, I find it odd that registration would chase away "valuable" contributors. Was Alan Greenspan secretly posting pro-gold messages on Kitco? I take people less seriously when I do not know their backround on the things they comment on.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:31 - ID#348127)

I Have noticed that people are not as concerned as they were 7 years ago when we went into IRAQ. I feel that we have become lulled into a sense of being indestructable in all ways. We feel that nothing can touch our markets, freedom or government. I feel that we are on the verge of an extreemly important event and that the media should be emphasizing to people the dangers we risk if we carry through on our threats. Being prepared mentally, spirtually and physically will be crucial if Iraq or one of its Allies ( i.e. RUSSIA,CHINA,IRAN etc. ) take this battle to the next level. Am I wrong on this observation, do we realize the consequenses. Are we ready for them. Or are we in for a rude awakening.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:37 - ID#243180)
Could you state specifically what consequences we will face that BC will deal to us. This has nothing to do with feeling lax over our financial situtation. The components of my lack of excitement is based in my lack of trust in BC's agenda. The entire world ( with the exception of those being arm-twisted ) is against this U.S. position.

If the U.S. truly wants to take out "So-Damn's" ability for distributing terror,,, let the Israeli's have at him,,,, job done. This hype against Iraq is a joke.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:37 - ID#340459)
With Clinton's popularity (70%)rising with every new scandal, it will soon be 100% per cent and he
apparently walk on water for citizens of USA

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:40 - ID#243180)
This just in......,,,,,..... BC rating have climbed to 103.5% ,,,,,, Clinton calls off Iraqi attack
due to his compliance,,,,, Clinton now asks Gore to step aside,,,, Hilary Rodham has made a statement: "While the Vice-President has resigned-- I am in charge here"....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:44 - ID#254269)
IMF; In today's WSJ on Page A11, there is an " advertorial" , place by Mobil ; it is
titled "The IMF; Does it Matter?". They come out if favor of the $18 Billion being approved for IMF use.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:46 - ID#342282)
Geoffs re call ban
I'm waiting for return call. Will notfy when i get it.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:49 - ID#340459)
Mapleman, What North Americans dont realize in their arrogance of ignorance about other Nations is
present US actions and policies will eventually lead to substantial numbers of countries turning against US global hegemony at play today. One can shackle a physical body but no one can imprision the thought, one cannot win the mind by force, Centuries of History show us that with arrogance comes the fall, Look at the declines of Greek, Roman, Mayan, Egyptian, Babylonian etc. civilizations

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:50 - ID#254269)
Korean lawsuit re derivatives.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:55 - ID#318118)
I'm going to pick on one individual only as an example to show why Bart
is considering restrictions to this site.

The 1420 post by MIDAS is an example of one persons political/moral
beliefs. It has absolutly nothing to do with the purpose of this site.
Also, I would bet 90% of the people on this site would rather not have to scan a message like that to find out if anything of value exists.
Not that anyone cares, but, I find the message in poor taste lacking of any value to me.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:55 - ID#238295)
More on Iraq from a group of Mideast scholars:

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:57 - ID#289349)
Murphy NC
Last fall my wife and I took a ride on the Great Smokey mtn. Rail Road.
The 30-40 trip thru the mtns. took us thru a number of small mtn. towns,
one of which was Murphy NC. Murphy was quaint little town, kinda reminded me of Mayberry on the old Andy Griffin show, it was the kind of place you would expect to see on a Hallmark card. Guess that's why I was so surprized when todays USA Today described the town as "inhabited by thousands of extremist, anti-government types", many of whom would be "willing to hide a fugitive". Guess that explains the FBI sending "over 100 agents" to do a "house to house search" for a "witness" wanted in connection with some bombing of an abortion clinic.

It's simply hard to comprehend 100 FBI agents going to house to house in full riot gear, machine guns at the ready in this little town. It would be funny is it wasn't so sad. Somehow I think the god fearing people of that little town have much more in common with the people who founded this country than we do.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:58 - ID#243180)
Last evening on the "Charlie Rose" show on pbs they were in full battle mode defending the IMF. They had all the heavyweights: Kissinger, Bloomberg, etc.... The participants can be seen on URL below.

This site does NOT have the transcript:

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:59 - ID#225273)
Proposed new guidelines
I don't think limiiting the number of posts is a good idea. What is needed is for you to enforce the rules already in place, IMO.
The posts should be related to PMs. There should be no personal attacks. There should be no personal chit-chat. Jokes that incite and inflame others should be banned. And those not adhering to the rules should be banned.
Courtesy and professionalism should be the code of conduct.
Posts decrying how poorly one's trading has gone that particular day should be banned.
Now I like it when people put up interesting links. These are very helpful.
But when full articles are posted, that's a nuisance. These should be edited before posting so that only pertinent info is put out to us.
I think the rules currently in place are sufficient. They just need to be applied and enforced.
I mean, Donald's blasphenous joke the other day was a perfect example.
It had nothing to do with PMs. It was destined to inflame and incite. And it was a total waste of time.
Posters like him should be banned if they can't abide by the rules.
Also, there are newsgroups to discuss theology, Clinton, and world events. These should only be discussed here insofar as they relate to the PMs.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 15:59 - ID#340459)
thanks and bye for now, catch you all later at this great site,

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:01 - ID#243180)
Beautiful country. Been to Cherokee N.C. in the mid 1970's,,, love it. ( You should keep away from those people there dangerous according to the FBI ) .

p.s. Personally, I don't buy Hallmark Cards,,, family owned monopoly that buys up smaller one to keep monopoly,,, kinda' like DeBeers,,,

Market Analyst
(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:01 - ID#33357)
Urgent! Market Comment

Historically, there have usually been one or two particularly auspicious
times to buy stocks in a given year. November 1990, December 1991,
January 1995, January 1996, and July 1996 all offered timely
opportunities to take advantage of a change in the intermediate-term
trend. The current market is considered another such opportunity. In
summation, the tremendous momentum and exemplary leadership augur
for a meaningful bull move in stocks over the intermediate term.

The above paragraph was written in this space May 8, 1997. In the
ensuing 3 months, the Dow Industrials soared 15.7 percent, and in the
following 5 months, the Nasdaq Composite rocketed 31.4 percent.

Said paragraph also describes the current U.S. stock market, though
leadership cannot be described as "exemplary," but rather as "good,"
given the lack of an explosion in small- and medium-sized issues as was
seen last May.

To review, on Oct. 29, 1997, two days after the Dow Industrials cratered
554.26 points, or 7.2 percent, it was mentioned in this space that
"Yesterday's advance likely constituted an important low due to its
enormity and gigantic volume. The probabilities favor a renewed advance
-- not a bear market. Leading indicators of market direction, including
breadth and monetary measures, indicate that the bull market has further
to run. The next advance's breadth, volume, and leadership will offer
valuable clues as to the market's ongoing health."

Stocks are believed to be in the early stages of a substantial
intermediate-term advance that began Jan. 12. Usually, the "easy money"
is made in the first few months of a brand new advance, when most
investors are disbelieving of the legitimacy of the rally. During this period,
stocks experience the fastest gains. The current period is viewed as just
such a period.

Technically, a market's health can be determined by observing its trend,
breadth, volume, and leadership.

The market gave a strong indication that its trend had changed when, on
Jan. 16, the S&P 500 and Nasdaq Composite indexes both experienced
follow-through days. The follow-through day concept, developed by
William O'Neil, ignores the first few days of rally off a bottom, since many
rallies fail after their initial thrust is spent. Of critical import, then, is the
follow-through, or confirmation, day. Such a day consists of a significant
price move on a pick-up in trading volume, and serves to validate the
authenticity of the young advance. Then on Jan. 27, the Dow Industrials
chipped in with their own follow-through day, while Jan. 28 saw the Dow
print a higher high, further confirmation of the new intermediate trend.

In terms of breadth, the cumulative NYSE advance-decline line's ability
to hold up in the August-October market correction despite tumbling
blue-chip averages has been an important market positive over the past
few months. In fact, the a-d line peaked in October, two months after the
Dow Industrials. It is to be noted that sectors, groups, and individual
stocks that go down the least in market corrections normally are the
leaders in the subsequent advance. Thus, the broader market's ability to
hold up better than the blue-chip indexes during the recent correction
suggests that the average stock will outperform the Dow Industrials and
S&P 500 indexes over the next few months.

Historically, bull markets top out several months after a peak in the a-d
line. Essentially, then, Wednesday's new high by the NYSE a-d line
"buys" the market more time before an ultimate bull market top is
expected. And the Nasdaq a-d line printed a higher high on Feb. 4,
turning its intermediate trend positive for the first time since October.

Another sign of the advance's expanding breadth are the number of new
52-week highs on the NYSE, which have steadily risen from 78 on Jan.
26 to 223 on Feb. 5. As well, Nasdaq new highs have increased from 22
on Jan. 12 to 167 on Feb. 9.

Volume, the market's level of conviction, has bullishly swelled during the
rally, with turnover on the NYSE averaging 602 million shares, a 16
percent increase over the level prevailing at the end of 1997.

Leadership has been very good, though not nearly as superb as the
May-August advance of 1997, which featured many spectacular
breakouts by more-dynamic small- and mid-cap issues. A market that
experiences strong buying in dynamic, growth-oriented segments such as
technology or healthcare usually results in a more extensive, longer-lasting
bull move.

The present advance, then, is being confirmed by the excellent tape action
of benchmark technology issues such as Microsoft, Cisco Systems, Dell
Computer, Intel, Compaq Computer, and Sun Microsystems. Last
summer's move, however, included these names as well as International
Business Machines, Motorola, Oracle, Bay Networks, 3Com, and
Hewlett-Packard -- making it a more legitimate rally.

Of critical import, the extreme accumulation seen in the technology
sector's more speculative branches, such as the Year 2000, Internet
content provider, and enterprise software groups, is an extreme positive.
These three segments are expected to outperform the market over the
next several months.

Further, the ability of the market's interest-rate surrogates like the Dow
Jones Utility Average, NYSE Finance Index, and AMEX Broker-Dealer
Index to hit new highs recently is another key positive. It is to be
remembered that these leading indicators of market direction usually peak
out several months before long-term tops occur in major market averages.

To sum, the view here is the most bullish since the May 8, 1997 Market
Comment. With monetary conditions, intermediate-term trend, breadth,
volume, and leadership all positive, and sentiment neutral, stocks are
expected to move substantially higher in the next few months.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:03 - ID#340459)
tsclaw, Did you have a bad day ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:03 - ID#65207)
Why not create two channel...?

One Channel dedicated STRICKLY for Gold and realy related.

One Channel for Open minded addicted Kitcoists for chatting!

No limitations.

Fees or no fees Bart you decide.

Where is the Freedom going?...Cast your Vote.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:07 - ID#243180)
There are 2 channels: This one ( "Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts" ) and Kitco's "Discussion About Gold Bars, Coins, and Stocks". The latter has little activity,,, ther's where your dichotomy of thought can be held as it currently exists...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:11 - ID#401349)
Yes, I think you're right. The Americans ( U.S. type ) gained a distorted perception of war due to the last engagement. They now think of it as prime time entertainment. Our hi-tech military just sits back in air conditioned bunkers and conducts war via computer -- with impunity. And we get to watch -- real time -- and keep score. Well, why not let our daughters do it as well, then? War continues to be as horrible today as was at any time in the past. People get multilated in the worst ways. It's an option we should be prepared for, but this one is just ego motivated -- IMHO.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:12 - ID#287280)
Of Kiwi, Shakespeare speaks , He was a gentleman on whom I built
An absolute trust.

Mr. Bart Kitner,
I am of the opinion that the mind that created this special circle of Dantes Inferno-- where all are compelled to address multi-hued faces of thought-- will, in his turn, arrive at whatever he deems just.

There is not a poster, or a lurker, or a visitor who would ask for more--nor one who would be willing to settle for less.

With thanks, and appreciation for the animating KitcoMind

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:17 - ID#65207)
Two channels
Well,if the other channel is not very much used perhaps it could be the place and be renamed Addicted Kitcoits Intensive Care Unit specialized in solving the Planet `s Problems.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:17 - ID#254269)
Dow closed at 8370 (that's up half of one point ! !), S & P 500 closed at 1020 (down 4 points),

30 yr. bond closed at 5.844%. Volume on NYSE at 535 million shares.
NASDAQ volume at 688 million shares.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:17 - ID#28585)
Market Analyst, you are correct in placing an "URGENT!" in front of your previous post.

With cash margins at mutual funds hovering between 2-5% on average...with mutual fund inflows stagnant or retreating...I would say your sunny evaluation of the Dow prospects is somewhat ridiculous.

Yes, you best get your message across to the masses with maximum URGENCY.
Because if you can't figure out how to bamboozle the remaining holdouts
to participate in your great Bull adventure, then we will soon witness an imminent market debacle.

At this point, any left field event will decimate the Dow...with an impending war, I would say the odds are better than 50% we will experience some such existential moment.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:18 - ID#243180)
@Oliver,,, fyi,,,

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:20 - ID#93232)
I am a gold chatter...I must confess....
I am attracted to the Kitco personalities and their varied opinions, concerns, etc. one helluva' lot more than the analyses. I like to read the technical stuff...but I have failed to find its use, so far.
I know of two different future depositories of "gold chat" currently being developed...if the chatters are unwelcome be it. Another cyber town awaits the misfits. We okies, keep our mattresses on top our Model A's.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:23 - ID#287280)
Market Analyst ( Urgent! Market Comment ) ID#33357:
Sir, you got off at the wrong station. Suggest you reboard and check your schedule carefully.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:23 - ID#348127)

Thanks for opinions but what I am really after is whether or not you and others understand the risk that BC ( really bilderberger'trilats ) is taking by starting crap over there. Unfortunatly I like most of you don't have an underground bunker stocked with provisions. And to those that would say this has nothing to do with PM. B.S. I think that what ever happens over in MIdeast will greatly affect POG and other metals for next 12-? months.

Voyeur Professor
(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:24 - ID#231101)
Maybe we should all re-read Dostoyevsky's "The Possessed"

I have been wondering if it may be useful to focus a bit on the psychology of this current market, both with respect to the Dow bull and gold bear. If one were to scratch the sub-text of the past two weeks trading, we might detect no small amount of denial operative in daily movements. It can be demonstrated that news--international currency problems, potential bank failures in Asia, unemployment numbers, rising long-term rates, the threat of war with Iraq, growing discomfort with American military and economic hegemony by European and Asian nations, and a president who may face impeachment proceedings in congress when Starrs data gets turned overhas been ignored by investors as well as voters. We keep hearing about the ameliorating Asian crisis when, in fact, sober voices are warning that problems there are not over. We are told that earnings and "fundamentals" are sound when sophisticated investors like Buffett and Soros seem soured on equities. And as the Imus Man puts it, "One more bimbo for Clinton and his approval rating goes to 99%! My point here has to do with my sense that the market has spiked, like Clintons approval rating, despite any measured concern for fundamentals. I believe most therapists would call this phenomenon a classic case of investor and voter denial. I also believe that gold may share an unfortunate relation to such widespread denial. Despite the emergent news of the past month that CB selling may be modest this year, that gold has bottomed and remains undervalued with respect to other investments ( even the mainstream press has admitted this much as the as the New York Times granted last Sunday ) . We may very well be in the final throes of a cultural obsessionhardly the first in historywhen a populace gets wedded to its own myopia. It happened in Nazi Germany and as Sinclair Lewis once facetiously wrote, "It Cant Happen Here." As a nation, we are possessed by the obsessive notion that redemption resides in playing the market. Certainly this may explain as a recent survey has revealed, that the average American now invests more in the market than he has equity in his home. I know this much: if Americans have repudiated our presidential mythos that celebrated the virtues of our leaders ( "Honest Abe" and George Washington who "couldnt tell a lie ) for a Machiavellian who counsels us to let him do his job, then it seems clear to me we have replaced ethical "fundamentals" for cynical motives. Are these and similar reasons why the denial syndrome may soon yield to reality? How much longer can the case for equities me maintained and that of gold denied

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:25 - ID#228100)
Saddam is one mean dude. No argument there.
Saddam is the most aggressive and person on the planet ( not counting Ken Starr ) . But should the USA attack him? I wish someone would explain why.

- Because of his weapons of mass destruction? If this was a valid reason, many countries could attack the USA! Iraq has developed these weapons to thwart attacks from an ancient enemy: Iran. ( Didnt their recent war last for nine years? )

- Will the USA be any better off by dropping a few bombs on Iraq? Do we REALLY think that Saddam is going to come out of his bunker and say: All right... all right... you guys can come and take all the oil you guys are right and I am wrong... just dont drop any more bombs!

- Because Saddam doesnt like the USA? OK, but lets make a few stops on the way. First, well kick some serious butt in Cuba. Stop by and bomb a few miscellaneous countries in South America. Then swing by and take out North Korea. We might as well hit Iran while were over there. ( Save us a trip later! ) After we take over both Iraq and Iran, well appoint Senator Fred Thompson as King of the Middle East!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:26 - ID#23398)
TVZ closed today on TSE UP 0.11 CND$4.13 VOLUME 240.000 SHARES.Will have moreinfo later this evening,

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:26 - ID#316193)
Bart, it is a difficult decision....
For instance, how can Donald be restricted? His multi-input
makes this forum "come alive"....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:27 - ID#243180)
BC and the Bilds/Lats are going to do what they do best,,,, subvert attention and build their agenda. The reading of Lao Tsu describes: "that in order to best understand the greatness in life there must be a dark side with provides the perception to appreciate that greatness" ( my words ) ..... yin/yang ..... another description ....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:28 - ID#23398)
Sorry for the typo that is TVX

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:35 - ID#254269)
Kitco Movie;

Bart; I just got off the phone with Steven Spielberg. He tells me that he would love to do a movie about this site and call it "Kitco Capers". He could not believe that such a diverse group of people could exist in one place ! Said something about a TV series as well. He will probably call you sometime soon.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:39 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.91 ( Week ago Friday reading was 27.47 ) Since the start of the year the Dow has advanced 5.8% from 7908 while the ratio has advanced only 1.9% from 27.40. The ratio remain skeptical of this Dow rally. The ratio high of 28.44 set on December 9th remains intact.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:41 - ID#26793)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:43 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .256 ( Week ago Friday reading was .255 )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:44 - ID#372344)
@ Bart....
If I may put in my 2 Canadian cents in on the issue of limits to posts,
I am in agreement with a number of submissions made in favor of
some limits, Skylark and others referred to the delicate balance needed
between genuine,valid posts relating to or information of Gold and others PM's, and posts containing mindless drivel , with pseudo chatroom content such as the thousand ways to prepare and consume vodka
with camels etc....As Barry White would say" too much of anything is
no good for you Baby" and I must say that a good portions of the current posts are not related to Gold, but some would be nice to break the tension....I would urge to consider however exrending the number of posts allowed to 6, or one for each of your time slots,so that if an important point or question comes up, a poster need not wait until the following day to respond, and also a self imposed limit on words would help, thus showing a sence of value to posters and lurkers time.

Another less desirable suggestion would be to have a sort of Kitco "COP"who would come on line and gently remind repeat offending posters the purpose of this unique discussion forum.
Thanks Bart for a great site.....

Gold dust
(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:45 - ID#431206)
Market Analyst You're pathetic
Just take a look at these two graphs. The decade 1920-1930 and the decade 1990-2000. Hmmm.. These graphs look QUITE similar don't you think. You're in for a big surprise if you think the DOW will advance much higher.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:45 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 42.24 ( Week ago Friday reading was 41.24 )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:46 - ID#254269)
Dow/gold ratio 30 day moving average is 27.10, a discount of 0.81 ounces (or 0.29%) to today's read.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 16:46 - ID#28585)
Good intellectual analysis of the American Zeitgeist, professor.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:03 - ID#39971)
Bart Kitner
Maybe you should just rename the channels.You know,call this one a forum

for coins and stocks and general bullsh*t,and call the other one a forum

for PM discussions.Huh? Huh? Huh?

Seriously though..Bernatz the Catz is right on.

Bernie baby,where we goin in the PM market?Two weeks left?

Thanks for the site Bart.I love you man. find good BC pot and another GOLD medal.Yippie!Go for the Gold!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:05 - ID#210235)
@Voyeur Professor
I haven't read that particular Dostoesky, but I reread J. K. Galbraith's A SHORT HISTORY OF FINANCIAL EUPHORIA last evening. I will offer an abridged quote:

Less understood is the mass psychology of the speculataive mood. When it is fully comprehended, it allows those so favored to save themselves from disaster. Given the pressure of this crowd psychology, however, the saved will be the exception to a very broad and binding rule. They will be required to resist two compelling forces: one, the powerful personal interest that develops in the euphoric belief, and the other, the pressure of public and seemingly superior financial opinion that is brought to bear on behalf of such belief. . . .

Although only a few observers have noted the vested interest in error that accompanies speculative euphoria, it is, nonetheless, an extremely plausible phenomenon. Those involved with the speculation are experiencing an increase in wealth - getting rich or being further enriched. No one wishes to believe that this is fortuitous or undeserved; all wish to think that is is the result of their own superior insight or intuition . . . .In the last century, one of the most astute observers of the euphoric episodes common to those years was Walter Bagehot, financial writer and early editor of the "The Economist". To him we are indebted for the observation that "all people are most credulous when they are most happy."

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:06 - ID#270227)
FWD Gold selling.....Comment
With the Amax/Kinross merger they are squaring their forward positions and should benefit gold in general and their JV partners such as MIQ-M in particular because it will raise cash for development on their exploration properties etc.

How that for a first time post :- ) NRN.....cheers

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:09 - ID#26793)
U.S. gold miners face greater financial risk than those in other countries.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:09 - ID#254269)
Clinton's subpoenaed aides; (I know, it's not gold, but it's important); In

Thursday's WSJ, there is a column on Page A24 that describes how the White House Counsel's office has been involved in the selection of counsel for subpoenaed aides ( such as Betty Currie ) . Because of this, the W.H. C. is part of the legal defense and gets to hear what the aides have told the grand jury. Esentially, it is a joint defense type of arrangement. The column is titled, "Clinton lawyers forge alliances with witnesses ". Makes it more difficult for Starr to "crack it".

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:14 - ID#376309)
My Two Cents
Re: "Date: Fri Feb 13 1998 15:59 Preacher" - I agree 100% with each and every point you made. The posts here are getting out of control and Preacher comments are the best I've seen!!! One comment thought, Gold is a very political financial instrument and has alot to do with Clinton and World events.

This is only the 3rd non Gold comment I've made since May96 and I'm sorry Bart for taking up space here with this rubbish but it's a subject that needs to take place and action needs to happen!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:15 - ID#252150)
Midas@Some Encouragement
Thanks for posting your 13:42 Re: clinton losing support in Congress. Although I would question their motives for not supporting him ( probably to humiliate & embarass him ) there is some hope that sanity will prevail. It looks like Clinton & his lackey Blair are being exposed as opportunistic demagogues, with no clear policy.

This debacle that Clinton got himself into really calls into question his

intelligence & wisdom. It looks like the uneducated Iraqi that they tried to characterize as being as dumb as a fence post will come out on top, no matter what transpires from here.

In a nutshell, what got the U.S. into this mess is that they simply cannot believe that their military power does not enable them to always coerce weaker opponents, & because it is human nature to bluff. They will surely lose face in most of the world & also be held in contempt & hatred, so that it will be very dangerous for them to travel in most Countries outside N.America.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:21 - ID#333131)
Voyeur Professor, On denial
You make a good case for denial in its exact psychological sense. I believe it was Erich Fromm who once described the denial defense mechanism like this: It's like the man who's neighbor ask him to return a glass jar he had borrowed. The man replies. "First, I never borrowed your jar. Second, it was broken already when I borrowed it. And third, I already returned it." It is the inconsistency of the contents of the denial which tip us off that it functions to protect the person's "invested ego" rather than reflecting the reality of the situation as he sees it.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:22 - ID#28585)
Kinross and Amax squaring their forward gold positions should benefit POG...however, the exact nature of those forward positions is what has the market nervous about both Kinross and Amax. Specifically, did they go overboard in their sell forwards ( via derivatives?? ) . My "detectives" are busy trying to determine if there is an unpleasant surprise about to be revealed there. Is the entire merger designed to hide this surprise?

TVX closed out its forwards on gold as well. Again, another benefit to the POG...however, TVX has written such a huge number of calls on silver that a potential loss in that investment might completely overwhelm its gains on the gold close-out. Net effect: a tremendous loss for TVX???
Possible bankruptcy????

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:25 - ID#26793)
Republicans plan to link abortion issues to IMF bailout

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:30 - ID#26793)
Thanks for your post on JP Morgan and the problem with derivatives and Korean banks. That has the makings of a very big story. Could be the first bank domino. The word default was not used but it seems plain that it is one. Notice how the story is dated February 12 but the release date was today at 3pm. Strange.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:35)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:36 - ID#254269)
Korean derivatives

Donald, I did not notice the rellease date when I made the post. Forgive me for being cynical, but are you suggesting that the release was delayed until closingtime on a Friday before a long weekend ?

Early Riser
(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:46 - ID#228275)
Avalon: I haven't read the WSJ article, but if I'm not mistaken there is one noted exception: MONICA's lawyer is not part of the team.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:48 - ID#333131)
This is pathetic and sickening. The US allies against Iraq.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:49 - ID#373403)
Jewelry Making
In case any of you big gold investors wants to know what jewelers actually do with the metal you trade in, I have a web page devoted to the jewelry manufacturing process.

The Hermit
(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:50 - ID#374232)
@ Donald_A
Thank you sir for your research and the internet links you provide here at Kitco.

As one who visits here for updated financial information I can say your contributions ARE very much appreciated!


The Hermit

(Fri Feb 13 1998 17:55 - ID#254269)
Early Riser; you are correct ; Monica is not part of the Joint Defense. The

aides who are mentioned in the article are; Betty Currie, steward Bayani Nelvis, and aides John Podesta and Ashley Raines. Ms. Raine's attoreny is a Wendy White, who previously workd in the W.H.C. office, according to the article. She ( W.W. ) declined to comment to the WSJ.

As an aside; I thought I heard a few days ago, that Ms. Raines mother is the manager of the Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock and we all know what was supposed to have happened there ! I believe I'm correct on this, but it was one of those little news blips on the radio.

It looks as though, they are trying to isolate Monica all by herself ! !

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:00 - ID#31868)
Preacher your 15:59
There are also links for lawyers, semantics, personal bias contemplation and oh yes, free speech as one individual tries to weave various thoughts into a sentence or series of sentences which allow the reader to understand how the individual arrived at the viewpoint stated concerning the oh so now famous precious.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:18 - ID#93232)
I don't have much use for fences...or a pub frequented by cops. Stir the stew a bit much and you'll have mush. Get Camdessus!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:18 - ID#410194)
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

Gold: Rose 6,099 troy ounces to 433,683

Silver: Fell 71,575 troy ounces to 92,745,906 -A new 15 year low

We have to go back as far as July 29th 1983 to find lower Silver recorded stocks in the Comex warehouses.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:27 - ID#26669)
Bits and pieces of PGM news; sorry, nothing about Tailgait, Iraq, WW3, etc.
Nisson has announced a shift back to Palladium/Rhodium catalysts, saying that with rising prices palladium only catalysts have lost their advantage.

SWC ( which I bought when it was down to 15 ) is up over 21 again today. Now I think it's overvalued. But I wonder do the insiders know something I don't? Probably...see the last link...

Russian secrecy about platinum has kept the market unsure

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:35 - ID#26793)
@Carl, Prometheus, Voyeur Professor
You should try and get a copy of "The Stock Market Scene Today: A Jungian Perspective" by Anne Crittenden

A few excerpts:

On Manias...The effect is always to overstimulate the group so that its sense of power and efficacy is abnormally revved up. Social mood becomes supercharged. The collectivity as a whole feels enlarged, energized and empowered. National selfesteem soars. It becomes extremely difficult for any individual to resist this marvellous feeling of elation and godlikeness.

The stockmarket is today's magic stairway by which people imagine they will ascend into a heaven where all their dreams will be fulfilled, and they and their families will live happily everafter.

In today's mania, the high tech stocks exhibit cosmic qualities, embodying fantasies of unlimited power.

The investment scene as a whole is so archetypally excited at present that deep emotions that we would normally consider religious now flow into, and add great power to, financial longings. Wall street itself has become a place of numinous power, a World Center where people worship the gods who decide human fate.

Today's ordinary people resemble those of the Cargo Cult. The gods have brought wealth to the Buffett-Templeton-Lynch Tribe; why not to us as well?

...anything unidirectional eventually reaches an extreme that generates an extreme reversal. Jung called such a reversal an enantiodromia. This is an iron law of life.

The current egotistical social self-esteem will vanish. Confidence will reverse to fear; elation to depression; manic hyperactivity to numbness and, eventually, utter prostration.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:36 - ID#401460)
You are right! The list should be much longer.
Clinton has messed this one up big time.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:37 - ID#26669)
Sorry, just a little footnote about Clinton after all. stolen from Steve Kaplan!
But it pertains directly to inflationary pressures:

"President Bill Clinton and Democrats in the U.S. Congress have proposed to raise the minimum wage, currently $5.15 per hour, by fifty cents in 1998 and another fifty cents in 1999, bringing it to $6.15."

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:45 - ID#93232)
Chocolates and cards for your significant others tomorrow.....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:45 - ID#57232)
Wavepackets for WetGold, CMH -- works for all apparently chaotic time series.
CMH: Thanks -- a veritable gold mine of wavepackets.

WetGold: 'Wavepacket' analysis in the non-Quantum mechanical sense has been used to describe a set of functions that have finite time and space dimensions ( like the quantum machaniical ones ) , specially chosen so that forward and reverse wavepacket transforms can be used to analyze time series. What I like about them is that if the temporal nature of the time series involves behavior like Gann analysis, fibonacci series, golden rule, etc of Elliot wave theory, the right choice of wavepackets makes all of this fall right out! Wouldn't it be nice to demystify Elliot wave analysis? I think so!

What would I start with? The gold or gold index daily or hourly time series -- or the DOW for as long a period as I could. I have already analyzed the DOW 1982 - 1984 I think it was, and the Fibonacci series falls right out -- no smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately I used something called wavelet analysis which is much less powerful, and useless in predicting the future -- something the Elliot wave guys do in their rather obscure way -- I think some of these programs are thousands of dollars, and after you buy one you understand as much of how it works as you did before you bought it.

I am filling up Bart's gold space -- but briefly the Elliot wave analysis -- fibonacci series analysis applies not only to the stock markets, but literally hundreds of other natural phenomena, such as long term El Nino cycles, tidal cycles, temperature cycles, population cycles, war cycles, etc. That is even more exciting than making money on gold, because it means that Elliot wave analysis examines somthing much more fundamental than market behavior, but allows one insight into how God made the universe! The ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE hidden in the chaos. If I was independently wealthy with all children in college, I would be looking at this, and not the gold markets.

I am not the originator of this -- I must give Fred Crook credit for the original work, and Colleen for directing me to FC's work.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:45 - ID#31868)
This my friends is priceless. Today the Coward Elect and Enviro Whore Gore were at the swearing in of the Surgeon General.

In both of their brief speeches they got his name wrong. Enviro Whore Gore call him Mr. Hatcher, the coward elect called him Mr. Thatcher.

Needless to say, that is not the mans name. Kinda makes you wonder.

Now back to our regularly hi-brow commentary on gold for the sake of gold.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:46 - ID#26793)
The Japanese government has failed to discover that excessive debt is the problem

The Hermit
(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:50 - ID#372248)
@ Donald_A - your 18:35
This is a very interesting post! Thank you sir.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:52 - ID#348286)
Marc Libovitz was quoted as recomending Gold and Silver stocks for the months to come..........

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:55 - ID#210235)
Tried to find the Anne Crittenden book on Bibliofind ( used ) and Amazon ( new ) , with several searches worded differently. Is this a small press item?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:56 - ID#57232)
Heading home
Apologies, Bart -- I know the wavepacket stuff was not directly gold related. I hope we can continue to maintain the 'free-flowing', informal nature of your wonderful site. And -- please whatever you do, don't limit us to 3 posts a day -- not for me -- but so that Donald can continue to drop his bombshells and keep us one the most informed sites on the web!

Happy thanksgiving all -- must leave to be with 'real' boss!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:56 - ID#26793)
Thanks; but it cost me a precious post to say it!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:58 - ID#57232)
Sorry -- meant
Valentines day -- I've been working too long!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 18:59 - ID#26793)
I have info but don't want to break Barts's advertising rules. Contact me by e.mail

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:00 - ID#31868)
try that may help?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:00 - ID#348286)
Saw that sickly looking wretch of a man Camdessus commenting on Indonesia.
This IMF whore is trying to shake the last pennies from the pockets of the ordinany man on the street. I see big problems in store for this region.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:04 - ID#316232)

As someone who has been here since you opened this group, I suggest that any limit be placed only on the size of a post. Since my screen only shows 16 lines, I suggest that as the limit per post. If there is more to say, another post can be made. By reading the name or the subject I can easily skip over the posts I don't care to read , which lately has been many.

If someone gives an opinion, and he is immediately insulted, it doesn't bode well for future discussion.

If someone gives a prediction, what 'evidence' of the future must he give to satisfy someone else who disagrees and therefore insults?

Donald is one of the few who actually provides important news for trading and he was recently trashed for giving a joke. Whatever happened to Tort--? Some posters need to lighten up.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:06 - ID#227290)
tolerant1; Please Come Again

I may be trying to read too much into what you said. But I didn't get the jest of it. Could you please explain what you are saying?

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:07 - ID#217268)
Donald @18:35
GREAT POST, whether or not the reader agrees. There is plenty of truth in what you say.

However, this has been true since 1990. I've read similar posts about how HIGH the P/E ratio, Book Value, Dividend Ratio, DJIA-to-GDP ratio, etc. are relative to historical past valuations of same. In fact, I have been reading them for YEARS.

So, my question to the group is: How high can they go ? What outside event ( s ) could or will trigger a disruption that will overcome the "dippers" tendency to buy ? We should make this a topic of discussion for Tuesday's forum ( Monday is a holiday ) .

A good weekend to all. Cheers.

The Hermit
(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:10 - ID#317358)
@ Donald_A - your 18:59
Keep posting! The financial information and research you provide is appreciated!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:11 - ID#183109)
If anyone is still unclear on IRAQ's biological capability, this article is a MUST read. Saddam has used such horrible weapons before, and given the chance, he'll use them again. This is clearly an UNACCEPTABLE threat to the world...IMHO.

"After all, by one estimate, an Iraqi Scud missile warhead filled with anthrax would kill between 30,000 and 100,000 Israelis in one long night of horror."

United Nations inspectors say that despite her friendly demeanor, Dr. Rihab Rashida Taha has built one of the world's most lethal stockpiles of biological weapons.

The worlds deadliest woman?

Dr. Germ heads Saddams biological warfare program

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:21 - ID#31868)
In the immortal words of Stymie, "o'tay." Within your post I saw limit upon limit on the expression of others. Hence my post. I laughed at the joke that offended you. You see white, I see black. You see things one way and I another. Mix that in with all the different people here, from all the different backgrounds and countries and in my opinion this site works great.

An explosion of thoughfult, thoughless, stupid, intelligent, wonderful and at times angering commentary that makes for something different not found elsewhere during a series of conversation, rantings and ravings centered around gold and the other precious metals.

If you see something you do not like, pass over it. Or we will all end up a bunch of frustrated mimes looking at white space.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:28 - ID#401460)

I agree!

Kitco Site appears to be policing itself pretty well over the last few weeks. It certainly is a lot better than it was last year. I still have a copy of a selection of choice language from those days if anyone is interested. It makes Clinton stories and Viva posts look great.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:36 - ID#31868)
I think Eldorado is a good buy but I have been following Clifton for a long time now. It is one of my favorite stocks and I constantly add to my position.

Good luck with Eldorado, I am waiting for the silver surfer to come in with Clifton.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:36 - ID#26395)
To All: Thanks for all your comments about limiting the number of postings a day.

I'll post a little later on this and also let you know what's being planned for access to "full text" mode.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:36 - ID#93232)
@T#1...with great respect.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:37 - ID#401460)
South Korea
Seoul Composite

PSE Composite

Taiwan Weighted

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:41 - ID#31868)
Thanks a bunch podge!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:50 - ID#403277)
Bart: I find all the replies from offended people to be more offensive and distracting than the original posts that offended them. A little bit of 'Physician, heal thyself!' would go a long way to cleaning up the site. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't waste my time and Bart's resources by railing against others just because your religious sensitivities have been offended. Bart, I would like to suggest that you give your children another chance to start behaving themselves before you lower the boom.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:55 - ID#23398)
Friday 7.00pm as per Mr Pat McKeough."Last week we mentioned TVX Gold,symbol TVX on Toronto,in connection with the news that W.B. has bought a large amount of silver.TVX had a number of gold and silver purchase and sales options in place, to nail down its profit from metals sales.This limits the company s profit from a rise in silver prices, but it won t do it any harm if it manages to produce as much silver as it expects. TVX has sold some of these options and booked a substantial profit.We still see TVX as a buy for aggressive investors." Hope this helps those who where conscerned about TVX

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:57 - ID#333131)
One additional thought on mania
Donald, If you're still out there, the presidential approval ratings are my proxy as an index of public mania. They are especially interesting right now because their internal contradictions belie a massive denial in order to protect the public feelings alluded to in your post. I suggested some time ago that when Clinton's poll figures dropped we would see a rise in gold because the figures themselves are a reciprocal index of public fear. By the way, one symtom that Crittendon didn't mention is that just before the mania breaks, at its very hight, sometimes comes RAGE. I've seen it in individuals and it isn't pretty.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 19:58 - ID#162148)
Iraqi threat?
polarbear: Your 19:11 says that the Windrem article proves the Iraqis have biological weapons. It proves only that Mr. Windrem can write a good story. You say he has used them before. He has never used biological weapons. He used gas against the Iranians and against the Kurd rebels in the north of his own country. At the time he did this, he was considered a FRIEND and ALLY of the U.S., and not a word came from our chattering classes about what an ogre he was for doing this. You say he would use them again "if given the chance". What better chance will he ever have than Desert Storm, 1991. In a desperate war, which he was LOSING, he refrained from using such weaposn against us. He did not use them for the same reason the Russians and their client states never used WMD's against us. DETERRENCE. Saddam knows that use of such weapons against us or our allies will result in his country becoming a wasteland. The coming destruction of most of modern Iraq, along with scores of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians has NOTHING to do with any threat posed to our interests by Saddam. It will happen only because the Israeli government and its "Amen Corner" in New York and Washington wish the destruction of Iraq, and the Klintonistas need to divert the attention of the 'sheeple' from the corruption surrounding them.

And, dont forget that the Klintonistas used CS gas, a chemical weapon which is outlawed by the Geneva Convention for use in WARFARE, against a church full of women and children in Waco. Get real!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:00 - ID#401460)
MEXICO stocks drop again on investor doubts:
``There was nothing new at the close. Earnings reports look good, but the market is taking no notice. Rather, it is still listless and wallowing in skepticism about Mexico's future,'' said Sergio Garcia, research chief at the Value brokerage.

``I think the market was weighed down by an expected deterioration in the capital account and trade balance, which could put more pressure on the peso and the exchange rate,'' Garcia said. ``And oil prices haven't helped, either.''


(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:09 - ID#227238)
Studio R 'n T1: If'n it be within yer comfort zone, please email me:

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:10 - ID#270315)
To: tolerant one
CFB looks like a well managed company, I guess its just the price as compared to ELD and the total amount of mineable Gold that makes me skeptical. I will however monitor the company ( CFB ) , you should check this company with your resources ( AEO on TSE ) it looks as if every investment house, including the big boys are crossing blocks of this. Let me know what you think o kay?

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:11 - ID#403159)
A virus called FRIDAY THE 13TH
was released on Kitco today.
ZIVA"S revenge has already
taken place, even though
a full day has not passed
since her departure. We
expect Kitcoties to remain
disfunctional and confused
until the day passes. Back
to your regular programing.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:13 - ID#248180)
@ Polarbear, Saddam & Iraq
Should we agree that Saddam & Iraq pose threats to world peace. Then please let us rid the world of the persons and government departments in the USA and Great Britain, that created this so-called modern monster.
Why is there such a perception that weapons of mass distruction "Are safe in the hands of the USA & the English? Get rid of the real culprits!
Saddam and Iraq are being used as a diversion in order that the present system of USA government can continue to prop & print US$. Avoid the real debt and welfare revolt in the USA when they stop the welfare cheques.
Saddam has set the trap. Very, Very Sadly some USA cities and people may fall victims to this Trap. We pray not.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:13 - ID#153102)
All Good Things Come To An End
I see this site is going to charge for reading, but has no announced plan to compensate for writing, editing, or finding and posting links of interest. It seems changes are in the wind to conver it to a kind of a cyber version of what would pass in America as a City or Country Club for Gold "Investors", a more controlled atmosphere. If the site attracts people, it should, like any attraction, be able to pay its own way. I suppose charging people to get in to see what's on exhibit is one way to pay costs. If costs are the issue, and not social control, I must say I prefer a freewheeling speech forum sponsored by commerce to country club talk. And if you are going to charge the Fat Lady, Elephant Man, the Snake Charmer, and the other attractions to get in to see themselves on exhibit, perhaps they will show up for show time; perhaps they won't.

Barb Hughes
(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:15 - ID#20783)
@Winston__A re: your 2-13 02:48 post (6.25 Bid & 7.00 Ask)...Barb

Take care...Barb ( the system insisted on something in the message box )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:15 - ID#257136)
Posts and limits.
Bart: As I, a short time poster and relatively long time lurker, see things you have a couple alternatives.
Most harsh: Police tightly so as to totally eliminate all non PM verbiage. This would result in most of us only coming 'round to see what's new this past week or so. There really was not a lot of interesting material for a while there.
The technicaL STUFF WAS GOOD AND SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED. iF YOU LIMIT IT TO JUST THOSE factors included in Netiquete, well and good.

There is no rewason we can't go to the other sites where some chat takes
place, such as the classified ads,.

It is obvious some folks cannot discipline themselves sufficiently as to limit tone, content, length or frequency of posts.
Some are so desirous of attention they disengage brain as soon as finger goes in motion on keyboard. I think most of us do that, at one time or another.
In essence, my feeling is do what ya gotta do. Don't try to pleses anyone but Bart, since it IS your site. Thanks for making it available in the past, regardless what comes up next!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:15 - ID#270315)
Were you able to find out any more about ( AEO ) on TSE?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:19 - ID#225273)
tolerant1 & clarification

Thank you for that clarification.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:23 - ID#398105)
I only wish................

Gold would go like the temperature here in Kalgoorlie, it was only a "mere" 46 deg C yesterday - a wee bit hot !

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:26 - ID#26793)
There is lots more good stuff in the Crittenden thing. She says this about rage:

"The present universal good feeling will be replaced by rage and despair, fraternal goodwill by hostility to all and sundry. The investment heroes who are now adulated as saviours will be reviled as traitors. In retrospect, their present charisma will seem demonic. It is all too likely that the mutual funds, now so easy and attractive to get into, will appear as towering infernos from which it is impossible to escape. Some will be falsely accused of having caused the disaster. EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE HAD THE GOOD SENSE TO AVOID IT MAY BE REGARDED WITH BITTERNESS" ( emphasis mine )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:27 - ID#225273)
KMTMAN & Aurado

The rumor is that Aurado will acquire the ground adjacent to the Teck/Western Copper discovery in Mexico.
This is a major discovery, as you know, and it's big enough to spawn an area play..
The reason so many shares were being sold -- as well as bought -- is that there's is no discovery for Aurado, just an acquisition in the area.
But this is the first satellite to excite the emotions of the VSE brokers and investors.
Later I think we'll see big interest in Kalahari and Global Mineral & Chemical as well.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:30 - ID#248180)
Haggis @ 46 deg c
Get out the Swan larger and get into it!! On my beach patrol of the Great Southern Ocean shores today, it was mild, sunny, a gentle sea breeze off the Sea and 25 deg. c. AAHHH.
Hang in there, GOLD will take giant steps forward from about mid April 1998. Possibly sooner.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:33 - ID#26793)
Indonesian & Philippine labor, now cheaper than China, will require Chinese devaluation

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:36 - ID#28585)
Certainly some of the most fascinating posts on this forum.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:48 - ID#28585)
The company continues to provide "odd" signals to its investors.
Now a teleconference call with analysts designed to try and calm anxieties about it huge short position in silver. If there were not substance to these concerns, then why even bother with such an unusual event?

I have a feeling that, dependent on what is said Monday, the stock will either trash completely or stay the course.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:57 - ID#339320)
@ Passin' the pipe with Cherokee

Thanks for dedicating such a long reply!
I said yaaa, because what you said was truely profound,
that this present bull is not of this world....and he is quite evil,
and he will stampede all that run with him right over the cliff.

As for a seat on the next train, I bought my ticket at $390,
and still consider it a bargain. Soon, the difference between $290 or $390 will be seen as a pittance. ( However I will admit it was shocking. )
As long as sellers are willing to naively part with their physical at a price determined by the gold paper markets, we will see these surprises.

I don't see the value as having gone down, rather than a few unwise persons willing selling their physical at too low of a price for all the wrong reasons. Heck, the paper gold market is now EVERY BIT as leveraged as the equities and currency markets......and the very nature of selling your physical based on paper's value is against the bedrock philosophy of owning physical in the first place.

As to your options, aye you spirit of the clouds, don't waste all your pipe powder on them...... the spirits in the dreamland don't kill the Grizzly, but a golden bear knife does!

Be careful about faulting Venezuelan bugets and tax increases,
the guys that work for the Ven I.R.S. actually PAY up to
$10,000 to be hired! An instant license for extorsion, and are
forced to take their vacations. ( They really do LOVE their
work ) . The Ven Govs idea of an effective tax increase is to raise
the already present 16.5% salestax, and reinstate a .5%
Banking tax on every check that you emit.
When PLACER talked about judicial insecurity, you should
read between the lines

(Fri Feb 13 1998 20:59 - ID#270315)
Thanks a lot for the info, I new they had been planning an aquisition I just didn't know which one. You have been very helpful, and I owe you one, the most peculiar thing about this AEO is that even the big boys like DS, Nesbitt, TD Greenline, Etc. were getting in on the act not just the local brokers. I think there is something more than just some land it must have proven more than probable reserves.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:02 - ID#20748)
Diverting attention
from the real Clinton.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:03 - ID#267276)
Lets consider some possible political moves concerning iraq. Clinton does not want to shake up his good ratings during these trying times with zippergate. A attack on iraq that kills thousands of innocent women and children might turn the public against him. A diplomatic solution made by Kofi Annan ( U.N. Sec. Gen. ) can split the credit for handling the problem between the U.N. , which needs funding and Clinton for looking tough enough to stare saddam down. They will glom up the spotlight and take all the credit they can. Who knows ?

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:07 - ID#347457)
@WetGold on California,,, leading edge,,,, solving Y2K in 1 year?? NOT SO!!
WetGold, an Executive Order is just governer catching up with reality to avoid a liability for not executing a due diligence ( why is it that leadership is always behind and catching up?! )

California works on Y2K issue since 1996 and expects some Y2K programs to run through year 2000 ( hence executive order expiration date is June 2001 ) .
Resolving the problem through existing resources does not mean by STATE WORKERS, it just means using existing and contracting sources budgets ( hence no new system purchases until Y2K work is done ) . State closed a master contract agreement for Y2K work with twenty contracting companies in October 1996. I talked to some people working on it.

Yes, state of CA is making progress, however, not in one year and not by state workers.
You can find some info about Y2K in CA at

Now, why somebody does not issue executive order for gold going up?! ;- )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:10 - ID#93232)
I tried to send you an e.mail twice....returned by mail administrator....I am at>

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:12 - ID#20748)
Barring Russian intervention, what is about to happen in Iraq is not war. Wars are fought against enemies who can hit back. What is about to happen is that a small hapless country is going to be turned into a butchery of human beings. You can call it ethnic cleansing or holocaust if that makes you feel better.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:12 - ID#93232)

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:17 - ID#256254)
Realistic or Arden...

Date: Fri Feb 13 1998 18:18
Realistic ( COMEX DATA ) ID#410194:
Here are the latest Comex inventory figures released after trading today:

of the 433,683 ounces of gold how much are deliverable?? was the 6099 ounces added just parked or available for delivery?

Silly question, the 433,683 is starting to sound extremely small to me as I watch silver drop; How much effort would it take to wipe out comex's gold stocks?

Thanks in advance ( I think this is my 3rd post of the day ) .

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:23 - ID#330175)
imNsho 3 posts a days is a bogus idea~~~~~~limiting length of posts makes more sense ( but what do I ) ---how bout no mo Cut-N-pasties

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:23 - ID#35767)
Attacking Iraq is so patently bad policy why is it proposed. If Iraq's neighbors arent worried why are we? No one can expect a country to be under sanctions forever. I am much more worried about terrorism if we attack Iraq. Lets go with the Russian proposal and declare victory and do deals for Iraqi oil like our FRIENDS. Alot of innocent people in Iraq who are just like us/ children/grand children/parent and grand parents will be spared. Any military attack on Iraq is borderline criminal IMHO. The fact the neighbors of Iraq oppose the attack makes any attack all the more ridiculous. And I think the polls are full of it just as with BC popularity.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:24 - ID#316193)
Schedule "D" Baffles The IRS....You Can Imagine What Y2K Will Do

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:25 - ID#330175)
ROR.............Lets NUKE em

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:32 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Charts:
Five Year Chart
120 market days Chart
30 market days Chart
10 days Hourly Chart

Long Term Chart shows Great Upside potential,
But Short Term Chart looks Weak.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:51 - ID#347185)
RE the Cargo Cult -great metaphor!

Promethius, thanks for the pointer this a.m. -I get just enough used to things working to forget to poke around myself.

Once I saw the RAH quotes I knew I'd found my happy valley...

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:53 - ID#347185)
That would have been Donald, and I guess you were quoting...

Darned' if I don't manage to srcew up something in every submission!

;- )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 21:59 - ID#243180)
The last time someone issud an Executive Order regarding fiat currency and its tie ( or lack thereof ) to PMs was mysteriously shot in the head shortly thereafter.

In regards to the previous part of your post: Perhaps I had my head turned so that U could not see my tongue firmly planted in my cheek,,,, STATE WORKERS was to imply the contract work getting done and not the work being performed. It is the responsibility that the STATE WORKER provide the necessary requirements in the contract in order for the PROPER work to get done,,, contractually. I have some experience with this in several firms I've worked for in that the contract people have differing agendas than the nuts-n-bolts folks,,,, bottom lime==$$$$$ and revenue stream enhancement.

I must agree with U that Wilson ( Gov-CA ) is just covering his 'coolie'.

Thanx for your post.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:00 - ID#372344)
@ Japan's IMF Rep.wants peg to basket of Regional Currencies....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:08 - ID#348286)
@CLITTONS will go down in history as the biggest CRIMINAL that ever served as USA President



It has been learned that Linda Tripp is being squeezed in her efforts to continue to serve as a Public Affairs Specialist in the office of the Secretary of Defense. Pentagon sources say that safety concerns prevent Ms. Tripp from reporting to her duty station at the Pentagon. It is known that there have been threats on her life as a result of her role as a key federal witness in the most visible federal investigation of the White House since Watergate.

As exclusively reported in the DRUDGE REPORT earlier this week, investigators have moved Ms. Tripp into a safe house.

This situation has caused her to plead for understanding and implementation and possible expansion of existing policy in allowing her to work from the safe house, via computer.

Credit for time spent meeting with the Office of the Independent Counsel is at issue.

Sources indicate that the Pentagon intends to allow her minimal support for this request, with the end desired result being a pretext for her removal.

The development is at odds with Clinton's stated support for whistle blowers.

In response to a questionnaire for a conference on protecting integrity and ethics, Candidate Clinton said, in part: "I am a strong supporter of the Whistle blower Protection Act... Workers who step forward with reports of violations of law should be protected."

Candidate Clinton goes on to say in this questionnaire dated March l8, l992 that, "reprisals will not be tolerated."

In an article in USA TODAY dated May 25, l993, Vice President Gore gave the personal guarantee of the President and himself in ensuring that federal employees who assist in investigations, "Will not suffer retribution."


Filed by Matt Drudge

The REPORT is moved when circumstances warrant for breaks

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:11 - ID#344308)

not even close...iraq acquired 5 defensive missle systems
of recent design from a european country in the last year....
it was designed with stealth technology in mind......and can
easily shoot-down the goblin's so proudly hailed......wait and see.........additionally...
iraq will engage israel with missles and terrorist strikes ( plo ) ...and
israel will retaliate.and other arab countries will join in--iran-syria-
will be the first to come to iraq's aid....imagine...2 carrier fleets
in a only takes one missle...we're damned good..
and we think invincible. arrogance and the titanic..and the bottom of
the ocean. peaceful....un-forgiving.....the us is vulnerable abroad
for treating the rest of the world as their door-mat...the door-mat
has suddenly grown long teeth and is very hungry for the bones of their
ancestors to rest peace-fully.......this is very bullish for gold...the decision to eliminate western influence definitely includes gold's re-surgence as their traditional dominant medium of exchange---along with the recent new-comer--------oil.
..a lot of things have changed in the middle-east of late...basically,
the muslims have come to a
consensus on how to handle the eagle...they will act in concert and
methodically....against ALL western influences and interests!
the west, had best get the hell out of the middle-east, and develop
our own energy resources----we've got plenty-----and sell the arabs all the
rifles and horses they need to continue sucking sand and looking for
land......let them feud, as is their want...

the us must re-patriate their foreign policy!...let the rest of the
world define their we retain, and develop our defensive
capabilities to the n'th degree...we have so much potential with-in
our own borders.....isolationist immediately! that is my cry....
yet i buy--dec98 crude calls for $190 or less.....hoping for the best...
preparing for the worst....

as to the future changes for kitco? the message has already been sent...
the smoke-signals....fats....the mission here completed.....if banned..
or charged $$ to post the a popular poster would say.................AWAY!

take the first step.....step-up to the plate...hit a home
can do it.......anybody can do it!

awwwwwwwwww....what happened? did cherry-tree upset you with the
reminder that gold has not gone to 2-7-5..or even close....and that your
kitty-litter is needing to be changed.....can't you smell that smell?
lynyrd skynyrd---gold is not going to hit your mark......mrkittyratkat---
a face to face, would provide a deserving cuff on the bi-cuspid...for the
nasty disposition....whop----


(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:24 - ID#333126)
indonesian currency board - latest news via Singapore ( Jakarta to press ahead with currency board ) ( Currency board needs extraordinary commitment: Fed chief ) ( Currency boards: good news or bad? )

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:26 - ID#403159)
RIGHT ON..... chief
Keep sending the smoke
signals of truth.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:27 - ID#316193)
Vronsky, I am impressed!
The "Golden Eagle" offerings of wisdom for February 13th are
among your best. Thanks.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:43 - ID#372344)
@ Iraq...Russia...Gold....US$....
The talk inside the beltway has now turned to a possible" saving face"
solution by the US over bombing Iraq....CNN Reported that Iraq got a load of suface to air missiles especially modified for extreme altitudes
with stelth targets in mind, I suggested in wenesday post that the
planeload of Russian "Humanitarian " aid might well have contained
some Russian S.T.A. missiles....The US is also blaiming Russia for
supplying Iraq with Bio & Chem weapons???....Worry over "Arab" reaction to bombings potential revolutions in Egypt maybe Saudi ,and world consequences of pictures of dead babies, with no true aggressor,
would accelerat the decline of US influence and thus declining confidence in US assets. Add to the Japanese et al talk of Asia
basket of currency and I see the US$ index topping very soon....
Gold will start to sniff this momentous change, and should move
gradually in tandem.........M3 rose 11% over the past quater, and predictions are that the $1 raise in the minimun wage will pass,with it's inevitable rise in most other wages, and you've got the seeds for the
familiar wage price spiral of Inflation, especially if the Fed is forced by Asian glitch to hold rates steady or even lower them.... I mentioned that such wage price inflation has only been brought historically under control by serious recessions, accompanied by very high interest rates....The free ride is coming to an end.....BTW BJ is threatening to
"out" congessman & media types in an effort to stop the lewinsky
affair hearings....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:49 - ID#401237)
Silver prices surge

I hope this is not to long.

( February 13, 1998 4:24 p.m. EST ) -- Silver futures prices Friday rose 1.4 percent after U.S. inventories again fell sharply, indicating speculative and physical demand for the precious metal is holding despite a surge in prices.

Gold futures rose after European Union officials indicated some gold will be held as an asset after their planned monetary union. Wheat and
soybean futures retreated.

Silver futures jumped in response to the New York Mercantile Exchange's report that inventories held in its Comex division
warehouses tumbled 71,575 ounces Friday to just 92.745 million ounces, the lowest level since July 29, 1983.

Market participants said the situation actually is more dire since current figures now include Wilmington Trust warehouses, which did not
become a silver depository until the beginning of 1997. Moreover, they said, 60 percent of the current figure was not counted before 1988.

The continuing drawdown is causing concern about near-term supply, said Refco analyst James Steel.

But others noted mines in Chile and Mexico have announced they are increasing production as a result of the recent runup, and one of the top refineries in the United States is boosting its operations. Meantime, buyers in India, which accounts for 16 percent of global demand, are
said to be sitting out the current high prices -- and some are even reported to be selling metal back into the market.

Silver futures prices have jumped nearly 70 percent since investor Warren Buffett began buying nearly a billion dollars worth of silver. The
recent announcement of his large stake has prompted additional speculative interest in the metal, which is used in jewelry and electronics
and for photographic silver.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:49 - ID#30116)
Just a hypothetical scenario...
Now this is a gold site, so how could the Iraqi fiasco affect gold? The only way I could see this happening is that we in the U.S. of A. screw up and pull a Jimmy Carter type Iranian rescue mission. In other words we go in singing rah, rah, and come back with sand in our face.

The question then becomes, how will the markets react to this? Admittedly, this is an unlikely scenario ( the US 'loosing' ) , but... The immediate thoughts that come to mind are a tanking bond market and rising gold prices in dollars. What finer way to express dissatisfaction with the old '$afe haven', but to go and find a new one???

If the Russians were to express some dissatisfaction with the 'mission', how about another monkey wrench thrown in to the PA/PL market?

Come to think of it, none of this will come to pass.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 22:54 - ID#224149)
Bart ---I Need ---The ---Reports
Ted-----I need my East Coast Weather report ----You should be allocated tiniest 50 posts.----Away to find the great EB .

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:00 - ID#335190)
MAI & Helms-Burton & USofA & Canada @ 29 member OECD & LAW ON INVESTMENT
February 13, 1998
Canada sets out conditions for investment pact

OTTAWA ( Reuters ) - Trade Minister Sergio Marchi said Friday that Canada would not sign an OECD agreement on liberalizing investment rules if it did not allow cultural protection.

But he stopped short of saying that it was imperative that the dispute with United States over its controversial Helms-Burton law on investment in Cuba be resolved before signing the Multilateral Agreement on Investment ( MAI ) .

Answering critics on the left, he said: "The professional doomsayers should try to calm themselves and stop trying to alarm everyone else. The MAI is not a threat because we will not sign a threatening MAI."

Marchi also set down a condition that appeared to try to address situations like the US$250 million suit Ethyl Corp. has slapped on the Canadian government for shutting its gasoline additive MMT out of the Canadian market.

He said Canada was "continuing to push hard for clear provisions in the MAI against the extraterritorial application of laws on investment, as in the case of the United States' Helms-Burton Act." But he did not say it was a deal-breaker.

February 13, 1998
FOCUS-U.S. says global investment pact no good

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The United States said Friday it will not sign a global treaty being negotiated by rich industrialized nations intended to liberalize investment rules and protect international investors.

U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky and U.S. Secretary of Commerce William Daley said the Multilateral Agreement on Investment ( MAI ) , which is being negotiated by the 29-member Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in Paris, is not good enough for the United States to sign.

"We do not envision signing on to this agreement in April," she said.

A joint statement signed by 600 environmental and public interest groups this week called on the OECD to eliminate provisions of the treaty that would allow foreign investors and corporations to sue governments for regulatory changes or other actions that hurt the value of their investments.

The Helms-Burton law allows U.S. citizens to sue foreign companies that invest in seized properties. President Clinton so far has waived this controversial provision, but has moved ahead with another provision that denies visas to executives of companies investing in seized property and their families.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:04 - ID#341234)
Nightly Business Report Comments
There were some brief but positive comments about gold by Mark Lebovit on NBR. Here is where you can find the transcript:

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:04 - ID#401237)
The President's Men and Women

The President is sending his men & women to town, in an attemp to rally support for the Iraq attack. Town Hall Meeting - Sec. of Defense, Sec of State, and others. More political campaigning, most likely. OR

He may eventually have to draft the OSU students. Start the pep talk now.

This city is the test area of the nation because of it's diverse population.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:08 - ID#266105)
@sleepless in chief seattle

I taught I taw a puddy-tat. Who yarked up this hairball.
Cheep cherokee, jeez. Out to d'blues. If anybody missed
that curling shot today ( by a Wisconsin junior high
school teacher ) you missed one of the highlights of
the '98 Olympics. It won't be reshown.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:11 - ID#316193)
Here's How Complex The Oil For Gold Situation Is....

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:17 - ID#31868)
I just can't stop laughing
Everything I look at about investing in money has politicians involved and if there was ever a group of people that could literally screw up any kind of a lunch, it is them.

One look at the thieves, crooks and liars in the private corporation in the District of Columbia known loosely at the US Federal Government and it
is EASY TO SEE WHY THE CONSTITUTION was written the way it was.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:22 - ID#210253)
Maybe Clinton grows as mad as Saddam?
Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was a clear violation of another sovereign nation's border. US military involvement was justified.

Is not a US preemptive strike of Iraq a similar violation of another sovereign nations border? What is the provocation? If we are patient, Saddam will self-destruct.

Go Gold!

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:28 - ID#227238)
Studio R: In between your attempts, I think they received my check. Hope you did as well. : ) )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:29 - ID#224149)
So---Who ----Thinks
My New Mouse --------Vivaciousness ----Hero----Yes----But ------But---

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:29 - ID#271215)
TVX Gold?
I have been gone for a few days, has anything happened to TVX Gold that makes it purchaseable. Last I heard they were dangerously short silver and we were being warned to stay away.

Thanks for any info.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:37 - ID#427357)
golden-eagle (SANS LETTERS "en)

Leland: Many thx for the kind words. By tomorrow we will have posted four new essay/reports from outstanding analysts.

Additonally, we will present this weekend our new section "ASIAN CORNER," which will blow everyones's mind. Now NOT having the daily chore of posting to Kitco to keep everyone abreast, we have much more time to devote to pure GOLD & SILVER research -- and the world events which determine their prices. In that sense I am relieved of the DUTY of posting a number of times a day to keep all informed of the latest developements.

This weekend will be the equivalent of "OPENING-NIGHT" for golden-eagle ( again, without the extra letters "en" )

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:38 - ID#401237)
Friday February 13, 10:48 pm Eastern Time

Malaysian Airline will not cancel orders - Are you sure?

He was asked if Malaysian Airline planned to defer delivery of some scheduled purchases. ``We are discussing with Boeing right now. I cannot give you any specifics,'' he said.

``Those aircraft that we have, the older aircraft that we have, we may be selling some of them, or maybe lease out some of them,'' he said. ``So we are taking a number of steps, and this will be a composite of maybe 18, 20 processes

Sounds like they are sitll working on it, doesn't it?


Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:40 - ID#257234)
Add Gold with your fabric softener
Interesting report on ABC ( Aussie ) radio this AM re an OECD report about Gold being used to launder drug and "white collar crime" money. The significant item was the fact that the spokesmouth for this one was a Mr Stanley Morris, a U.S. Treasury Official.

It seems that the OECD ( and the Treasury? ) are concerned about growing evidence that Gold is being used by drug dealers and assorted other miscreants to launder their ill gotten gains. Mr Morris claims that this is because the Gold markets are less regulated than other financial markets.

Mr Rubin has already assured everyone that the IMF will hold onto its Gold as the Gold protects IMF credit-worthiness. Now, it seems that Gold is to be in the spotlight as a possible candidate for increased regulation. And finally, a Bank of England official has assured everyone that the threat of Central Bank Gold sales won't go away just because of a mooted Gold component in the reserves behind the Euro. He is confident that the threat of CB sales will overhang the market "for years".

New Gold pages up at The Privateer

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:45 - ID#238422)
Old Soldier
I would be very interested to learn
about your opinion on what is gonna happen
between the U.S. and Iraq in the nearest

I personally have a feeling that some kind
of compromise will be reached w/o shots fired.
I think something is developing on diplomatic

Thank you in advance.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:47 - ID#227238)
Drugs 'n gold.
Bill Buckler: That is the opening salvo of a newly formed and concerted attempt to place restrictions on the ownership of gold in the US. It was bound to happen. .... Another liberty forsaken. All for the specious reasoning of a war on drugs. And all the more reason to lay in proper stores ASAP. Before reporting requirements become onerous and easily traceable. ..... Black market anyone???? ..... If the feds have any inkling that gold is about to advance they will move even more quickly than usual.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:56 - ID#31868)
The US Government will not exist in its current form by 2002. It will cave in under its own inept, unfair and completely anti liberty stance.

Soverign individuals will come out of the woodwork. The welfare state is dead, it is just going to take some time for the body to hit the ground.

In addition, the Consitutionality of supressing gold and silver will be challenged in the not too distant future.

The Coward Elect will be chastised in a manner that will make what happened to Nixon look like a popularity contest.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:56 - ID#401237)
Secret Service Agent

WASHINGTON ( AP ) - The Justice and Treasury Departments agreed Friday night to
limited grand jury questioning of a former Secret Service agent subpoenaed to tell what he knows about President Clinton's relationship with White House intern Monica

``The Justice and Treasury Departments and the Office of Independent Counsel will
continue to discuss these issues as they may arise,'' the statement said in an apparent, but unstated reference to the possibility other agents might be questioned.


(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:57 - ID#57232)
War of nerves
Sig: You bring up an interesting point about Saddam. Every day that goes by is a ticking clock for him -- he stays in power only at the point of a gun. And -- he avoids attack by US forces by moving children and other civilians to sensitive areas so that American forces will be killing innocents if they go after him or his offensive weapons. But by treating innocents in this manner he is making himself unpopular. Also by diluting his personal elite guard over many sites, he has recognized that this war will not be a ground war -- but an air war.

However, in this war of nerves, he knows that we cannot afford to keep two carrier groups in the Gulf indefinitely, and the more forces we commit, the harder it will be for us to gracefully back down. This may be why he thinks he may be the 'winner' by provoking us to attack, thus making the US to look this time like the aggressor.

What we must sincerely hope is that Saddam is not able to launch even one missle with WMD into Israel, causing an Israeli response that expands into a war between the US and Israel ( and Turkey ) against Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt. This is what Saddam wants he he has no respect for human life, knows his days are numbered, and wants to go down favorably in the Arab history books. How else can he do it?

Thus we must not appear to be the aggressor in this war of nerves. We must make him blink first. If we appear to attack unprovoked -- even if we win the war with no or little casualties -- we greatly increase the risk of arab terrorism imported to our shores.

(Fri Feb 13 1998 23:59 - ID#227238)
@ the wave packet thingy.
JTF: It's a real stretch to recall this but are you describing a system of mathematics analogous to the convolution integral???