Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:05 - ID#318118)
@John Disney - South African Gold
Take a look at this URL
It came from Olivers' post earlier this hour. I would appreciate your comments after you have read the article.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:07 - ID#238422)
John Disney
John, I do not have any Norilsk info yet.
Looks like I'm not the greatest one as I thought.
Will try again, kind of sport interest for me now...

Bill El Zebub
(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:09 - ID#261352)
Is Iraq the land base the US needs in friendly hands into the 21st century.
Next stop Iran. The real target?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:12 - ID#57232)
I think I figured out the derivatives bit -- the IMF is very worried about default
D.A.,Mozel: I'm slow tonight! D.A. -- you already told us why the derivatives and Indonesian currency board are connected! Suharto is acting like the currency board would work, and you tell us that m1 would be covered, but not m2!. The problem is m2 and debts that Suharto ( or other Indonesians ) owe - namely unpaid derivatives trades, among other things! And -- the IMF is expecially sensitive since South Korea seems unwilling to pay their derivatives debts as well.

It is now obvious to me -- the IMF has figured out what Suharto is up to, and is trying to keep him from defaulting on derivatives debts -- which he would do if he sets up the currency board.

I think the more serious matter is that the IMF is apparently scared about non-payment of debt and -- probably derivatives trades play a major part. So -- are the creditors other banks or hedge funds -- who is not getting paid, what sort of derivatives are they and how much money is in default?

SDRer, are you still awake? What are those hedge funds, international banks,etc going to do to get their derivatives 'winnings' paid off?

My guess is that -- if I were Suharto, or the leader of a SEAsian country, the last debt I would worry about would be a debt incurred on the OTC derivatives market. Who will enforce payment?

Hence -- the IMF reaction to Suharto's currency board idea is highly significant, and suggests that a boatload of money is missing somewhere.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:19 - ID#57232)
Missing posts? Perhaps I can only bet there by posting!
All: choosing a time interval does not work near midnight. It appears that the only way to see a post is to make one.
G'nite all! Long day ---

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:19 - ID#39971)
Ya ......Here Is AComment Bilge A Burp
US stations sometimes say something when it isn't


(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:20 - ID#401460)
Bill El Zebub

Caspian Sea is what has to be protected at all cost.


IMF on Nightline - Camdessus

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:23 - ID#31868)
The dirtbag was on ABC Nightline tonight
Yes folks, its true, the needle eyed dirtbag Camdesuss was on TV tonight with both hands out looking for money from the unsuspecting American public.

Need anyone be provided with more proof than to just listen to this idiot for the reasons not to give him and his criminal organization another penny.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:27 - ID#39971)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:32 - ID#401460)

I see what you mean, this guy is a real sweat talker, no wonder you like him so much.

I haven't heard this much garbage since I last listen to Clinton in Aug 93.

He goes in with our money, bails out his buddies banks and takes over the economics of each of these countries for his friends.

You just look at this guy and you don't trust him. Fast talk, double talk - THE SHELL GAME!

We loan 50 Billion to Mexico, Mexico borrows 50 billion from the IMF pays us back - and we have to contribute 50 billion on the back side to the IMF. MID WAY SUCKER GAME!


(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:33 - ID#57232)
Just read your 2/15/98 21:11 -- fascinating!
D.A.: I think you hit the reason for the IMF reaction to Indonesia's moves on the nose -- worry about debt default. Personally, I don't see how the IMF would not have expected such a move, as Suharto's first priority is keeping the peace in Indonesia by providing internal liquidity. Unpaid debts to foreign investors are secondary. Unless -- the IMF has determined that certain key international banks still have not been paid off. Lets hope that that is not the case, and you are correct that the world's financial community can handle the loss of these unpaid debts.

I would provide a little cautionary response to your statement about gold going down first, and then up later as the dollar and other currencies are inflated to compensate. And -- that is that this debt compensation by dollar inflation might not happen immediately. I think there is historical precedent for that -- such as the S&L crisis in the US. I think also that one of G. Soro's books addresses an earlier period when there were major worldwide debt defaults -- I do not recall how long it took for the compensatory inflationary events to take place.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:34 - ID#57232)
Sorry that was 2/16/98!
D.A. -- got the date wrong. G'Nite all!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:39 - ID#31868)
No question he is a direct relation to the weasels in The Wind In The Willows.

Ted Koppel played softball with the jerk. What a sham!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 00:51 - ID#250121)
Fishing is not a matter of life and death. It is much more serious than that.
JTF, Mozel, Carl, D.A. TED,
I am in full agreement with Earl. A day like Monday ( your time ) makes up for the, well, less awe-inspiring days.

Nick@C, Auric,
thanks for your THOUGHTS and insults - you'll get your's.
I have been fishing for Marlin in the beautiful Bay of Islands. The Marlin were quite safe, from me anyway. In the BOI Swordfish Clubrooms, written in GOLD letters on large wooden boards around the walls are the world and club records landed by club members. Zane Grey's 1926 Striped Marlin of about 425lbs ( didn't make a note ) still holds.

A thousand golden thanks for your past generosity. Now, looks like a crossing of the Rubicon at Kitco.
I, until I read Monday's posts, was sure I would not bother with the subscription. If I didn't subscribe, the other services you kindly would provide for free would be valueless to me because of the way I use and manipulate the information here. So I would just tune out and go fishing. However, Mozel, DA, TED, & a Host of ANOTHERS, have convinced me that I still have much to learn, and I shall be glad to subscribe. May, I suggest a Quid Pro Quo for this charge? Would you kindly give the statistics that I have long called for, amigo. ( *I* don't cry if you don't answer my plea, Oh! Deus ex Machina. ) That is, the daily Hits per country, and the historical info on this.

Thing is. BART, without being able to trace the flightpaths and numbers of the flocks of birds feeding at Kitco's bird-table of knowledge, an ordinary, ornerry, ornithologist like moi, ( TED ) is, as it were, flying blind.

Agree, Symcox deserves a REAL gold medal. BTW, didja see NZ drew the 4 match one-day series against 'Stralia last week? Winning the last 2 games. There's hope for the old girl yet. Hairy armpit? Oxters-R-US??

Sceptical leg-before-wicket-person? Is that cricket LBW? Does that mean If in Doubt -- Not Out?

Now, there's a sport utterly enjoyable no matter that I know not the rules. Au Canada!!!

Thanks for yours on Blanchards Newsletter. Very true, the mysteries of timing of following his advice! Other interesting "anomalies" from such Newsletter luminaries as Puetz and Gartner have also been outed at kitco.


John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:16 - ID#24135)
For tsclaw ... Comments follow
For TSCLaw
Read the article. Good summary of what happens on
human level. Mines here have been forced to reduce
fat and become competitive. Harmony and Dbn Deeps
are driving hardest now to bring average costs BELOW
US levels. Gencor was driving hard a while back. Gold
Fields will soon be in spotlight when they close
Libanon and Leeudoorn.
All of this is hard of the poor Black miner.. I think
that the importance of gold may be a bit overstated
relative to total mining however.
However, This once again points up how stupid it would
be for the NUM who are seen by members as partly
responsible for job losses to call a strike. They will
lose more members.
Another interesting point is how tribal boundries
and colonialism created places like lesotho and
Swaziland, where many of RSA's problems can be exported.
These workers wont starve. They'll go back to Lesotho
or even Mozambique and the local Black economy. This
will sound callous, but in 10 years here Ive never
seen a really THIN Black lady or ANYONE that looks
A gold price of 200 an ounce will close ALL mines
everywhere. The ones here have more manpower and that
makes better press.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:16 - ID#255151)
For tolerant1

Here is an insult for Mr. C.-- "Be put in a cauldron of lead and userer's grease, amongst a whole million of cutpurses, and there boil like a gammon of bacon, that will never be enough." ....Or, you could say, "GET CAMDESSUS!"

(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:23 - ID#286250)
Mozel, on CB Buying/Selling--

Argentina was a special situation : they exercised puts in which they had profits as richly decadent as Godiva chocolates. Frankly, I think that was a set-up too-- the quid pro quo for signing Rbin Gold-bonds though, as they are reserved for the hard-sell customers..

Im reasonably sure Australia sold to China.

I think I see a pattern developing: a regional holding of gold reserves--Australia could sell to China because she would fall ( most happily, one would think ) into the Austral-Asia sphere of influence. Canada and Argentina would sell to US govt, part of their hemispheric block. Europe stands pat. Belgium sold because debt was 167% of GDP! The Dutch sold a little, for Maastricht purposes. All else in Europe was RUMOR of sales, yes?

When I first visited the board in Nov 97, my question was "Who is BUYING?" Endless PR about sales, not a whisper of buyers...

Utilizing my full quota of clichs: Irrational exuberance overcame best laid plans, leading to unintended consequences. Whew!

As for false tales leading to false trails--do we not accept that as their modus operandi?

I hear thunder again. Best shut down. Good night. Thank you all for such thoughtful and exhilarating input. It has been a pleasure!

JTF@Waiting.for.the.bankpayoff This is a stunner! Let's do it tomorrow, o.k.?

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:34 - ID#24135)
Read their 1997 RESULTS or dont - who cares
for Chevy
went to site .. Read briefly .. will say this..
This is ABX sweet talk .. If you like sweet double talk then
buy ABX ..
I refer you to my earlier post to avalon..
" Barrick ... 1997 revenue = 1280 + 123 ( loss ) -385
addback for el indio etc = 1018 - guess at 3 milloz
of gold produced and voila.....339 $/oz ..average
cost. I wouldnt bother looking at the 4th quarter
in isolation as Munk used a "kitty" from the horrid
3rd quarter to try to make it look like things were
rosy and better than 4th quarter prior year. Smart
cookie that Munk."
I arrive at the average costs of ALL companies the
same way ... their revenue minus their profit divided
by their gold production. In ABX case I gave then credit
for a one off for el Indio. I have no time for creative
accounting aimed at fooling me into thinking how good
things are while I lose money. Maybe you do.. Then buy
it .. buy lots.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:43 - ID#22157)
Straddler 16:55 (Return from full text) IE 3.0 returns to beginning of page
I used to have the same problem when using Internet Explorer 3.0, which was quite a pain in the backside. Sometimes it returned to the exact position of the short message after full view, but more often than not it returned to the beginning of the page. Since I have upgraded to IE Explorer 4.0 the system always returns to the short message after viewing full text. So, I believe that the problem lies with IE 3.x rather than Kitco, try upgrading to IE 4.0, it's for free anyway, ( Microsoft throws it after you if you don't close the door quickly enough... ) I believe you can download it from their webpage. I have not been able to find a solution to the problem with expired webpages, seems to happen less now than a few month ago. Well, computers and networks are no good to keep ones sanity at acceptable levels!!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 01:44 - ID#248180)
@ Yeltsin to visit Indonisia this half of 1998
Russia Daily News reports that Yeltsin is planning visit to Indonisia during the first half of this year. Discussions regarding the proposed sale of Su30 jet fighters and other common topics of mutual interest.
I suppose that their mutual debt to the IMF is going to be very high on the agenda. I for one do not under estimate the very bright young "Turks" in Yeltsin's ministerial cabinet.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:08 - ID#25867)
Replies to Bfiler & Lurker777
Lurker 777: You said: "How much $$$ to reveal the true identity ANOTHER. Come on everyone got a price!"

All I can say is that I hope others who wish to share knowledge anonymously witness this moment as I refuse your generous offer to ensure the integrity of our contributors at large. Aside from the fact that it's unlikely that I'd even be able to fulfill your request, how much would you have gone up to, max?

To Bfiler: You said: "Why not hire fulltime conpiracy theorists to post daily ( you'll need imagination like he Penthouse letter writers ) and that way keep a low level hysteria present which might help you in charging fees for this site. Can I go ahead and give you my credit card number right now? "

So you're saying that I've conspired with myself to create an illusion of having extinguished some off-topic postings. Firstly I'm pleased to see, by the nature of your accusation, that you agree that the messages of that sort don't really belong here. Secondly I'm glad that you brought up that point because now those who know that not to be true are the same people who were suggesting that one should be suspicious of what ever they read. Maybe they learned something. Maybe they didn't. I bet some think that you're another alter ego and I'm just having a great time talking to myself. The point is is that the stories that people write in to Penthouse ARE absolutley true, which should tell you that maybe it's time for you to get out more.

About the credit card. To save time I'm asking that everybody simply post their credit card numbers here on the group. Don't forget to include your address because sometimes it's needed to get an authorization.

Ted: For Cape Bretoners only, you'll have to mail me the actual credit card.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:11 - ID#153102)
Stranger than Strange
What do you suppose Yeltsin will accept for payment for his fighter planes ? Rupiah ?

It seems a noteworthy coincidence that the entire top Central Bank echelon of the one country in the Far East with a strong currency should perish in a plane crash essentially just like the Ron Brown plane crash after attending a meeting on a regional currency conference on a proposal disapproved of by the IMF and the US administration.

Why didn't China buy gold at the LBMA like the Middle-East countries apparently do ? Did the Canadian and Argentine gold go through the LBMA ?

Was the BIS request to Japan to subscribe to more shares designed to draw down Japan's gold reserve ? Is this consistent with the propaganda that gold is not monetary ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:14 - ID#41229)
Tolerant1 , D.A.
You gotta check out this site I'm sure you'll find it interesting!


Thanks for making me educate myself on the monetary system, the more I learn the more I find out how leveraged the system is!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:18 - ID#41229)
Bart Kitner
Was wondering if you had any people contacting you of ANOTHER's posts by phone or otherwise.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:22 - ID#31868)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:31 - ID#31868)
Thanks for the link.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 02:53 - ID#153102)
From Cavallo: Initiator of Argentine Currency Board
``Real convertibility is not being discussed, which for its existence
must be accompanied by the political acceptance of the idea that in the
last instance, a complete dollarization of the economy could take
place,'' he said.

Argentine peso is on a one for one basis with the US dollar. Interchangeable in the local economy. Zero currency risk for U.S. companies doing business there. Complete commercial colonization. That's not the Far East idea of a currency board by a long shot.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 03:13 - ID#153102)
A Terrible Thought
Argentina sells all its gold. Establishes currency board. Dollarizes its economy. Becomes a commercial colony of the U.S.
Currency board idea is popular with Canadian Kitcoites.
Canada sells all its gold ....

Please guys, I was only kidding about the ghetto thing. Mine gold. Quick.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 03:44 - ID#358318)
$200...$208...what's the difference?
John Disney__A Feb 17 1998 01:16 wrote:
"A gold price of 200 an ounce will close ALL mines
everywhere. The ones here have more manpower and that
makes better press." Is it not an interesting coincidence that the price at which you say all mines will close is not far off what the BIS uses as the POG in its accounting? Methinks that is how they arrived at that figure- "What is the minimum price at which no sensible person would expect the market to be supplied". In science, when you cannot accurately estimate the value of something, you look for extreme cases that will fix upper and lower bounds on the value of that something. Upper and lower bounds are often easier to calculate.

mozel ( 02:11 ) : I was wondering when someone would mention Ron Brown and the Taiwan plane-of-central-bankers crash in the same breath.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 04:06 - ID#393224)
Aussie gold
The Aussie gov't in it's great wisdom has , as you know, sold 2/3 of our gold stash. Their reasoning, if they are capable of such, probably goes something like this:

Australia is a gold rich country. If POG skyrockets, we'll ( the gubbmint ) just take it back off the miners. How about a 30-50% windfall profits tax on all gold at $800/oz. ( payable in gold, of course ) . The miners will get their 400/oz to keep in business and gubbmint will get the rest!!! Production will zoom, as there are heaps of borderline gold mines in Oz that are profitable at higher prices. Even old tailings dumps will be scoured. No shortage of gold at those prices!!!

PS-- hope you have had success with your Aussie broker. Getting to be good buying-time again.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 04:50 - ID#153102)
@Trinovant @Nick
@Trinovant Don't you think both planes were on an approach beacon ? Fiddle the pilot with a false beacon and you have plane crash on demand.

Also, BIS has highest known $ conversion value for gold holdings of any CB I know of except China. They did not start out in 1930 at $208, I'm certain. When they started using $208 might be useful to know.

@Nick So, you don't think your Republic will pay debt with gold and silver coin. A socialist republic, in other words. You need to get to that constitutional convention as a delegate. No doubt about it.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 04:51 - ID#220272)
Templeton quote
"Never follow the crowd. Superior performance is possible only if you invest differently from the crowd. To buy when others are despondently selling, and to sell when others are greedily buying requires the greatest fortitude, but pays the highest rewards." ( Sir John Templeton )

Tokyo gaigen
(Tue Feb 17 1998 04:53 - ID#367262)
ABX Barricks Gold and %R indicator
Old lurker from last year returning...
any thoughts on ABX Barricks Gold Corp much appreciated. I plan to buy this stock on the open - last close $20. Moving averages look Ok

Looking at gold over the last year again I am blown away by how good an indicator the Larry Williams %R continues to be. I looked at this indicator a few years back when I was trading alot of silver. If you set the period at 14 and a buy signal down at 1.00 on the range 0 to 100 it gets you long gold at great levels

(Tue Feb 17 1998 04:53 - ID#248180)
Drudge Report & Bloomberg News Can't Access
Has any out there tried to access either of the above?
The Drudge Report must have gone down with the Central Bankers in Taiwan.
Slick Willie & Hillary The Hun must be closing ranks with Camdensus.

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:00 - ID#24135)
Accountants are funny people
To all
208 is a REALLY strange number. No problem with the 200, but
where the hell does the 8 come from ... ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:02 - ID#153102)
Lots of discussion of ABX in archives.
High average cost from S.African point of view.
Lots of questions about status of forward sales.
Munk anounced ABX has largest silver reserves in N.A. after Buffet buy of silver.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:11 - ID#153102)
You understand, I hope, I meant they need you at the convention to make sure Aussies get honest money in their pockets.

Otherwise, "Don't cry for me, Argentina"... It could happen.

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:20 - ID#24135)
I had a house in the foot of Paarl rock
For tsclaw
A small follow on about Africa. One grain of corn
will grow 6 ears of corn in the worse dirt in Africa.
Africans in the bush dont starve unless they are
separated from their small piece of land by war or
natural disaster. Its a little tougher in the North
where the desert is moving down ... but remember all
the starving somali faces on the American idiot box.
Have you seen any lately?? Did they all die?? Dont
think so, do you??
I took out a SMALL insurance policy on my gardener
yesterday that covered him for an accident and some
money for retirement. He really appreciated it. Not
the money but rather that I cared something about him.
Problem came when we had to fill in his age. He doesnt
know how OLD he is. So he said he would get his ID
book and look it up. Today he says he doesnt know
where his ID book IS. He says he is 36 if he speaks
to a young lady, But he becomes 40 ish when retirement
age is mentioned. All this with the broadest of smiles
and the best of feelings. Im starting to like Africa.
But Alex is not the new generation. Neither is Winnie.
Winnie with her vision of Ubuntu are out of it. This
place has satelites beaming into every corner of the
bush and the townships are being electified. In 20 years
.. I dont know what we will have ..but it wont be
africanization. Gapeville Georgia will be more African
than this place.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:25 - ID#153102)
John D - The Old Dominion's Great Loss. Nite all.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:46 - ID#39845)
Death of Sheu Yuan-dong.
Well this is going to raise eyebrows all round the world. The
govenor of the CB of Taiwan that helped steer its country away
from the Asian currency typhoon, dies in chinese airbus crash.
This looks real ugly, seems like alotta foot stompin goin on.
This is getting scary.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 05:53 - ID#358318)
Indonesia's Suharto fires Central Bank Governor

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 06:28 - ID#24135)
THIS is driving me CRAZY.
For Mozel/Carl/SDRer/..
ABX revenue checks out off take in 1997 at 410$/oz some
guy really pays that much more than the market for it.
WHO IS IT??? I think its about 3 mill ounces at say 70$ over
the market. So he pays 200-250 million$ more than he would have
to at spot.. gee thats a lot . Does Munk know who his offtakers
are ? Was his talk to the Central Bankers play acting. If
haggis is correct, the Oppenheimers are a direct link to the
Rothschilds ( sp? ) - surely they would know - they knew the
outcome of Waterloo before The British establishment did -
does everyone know but US???
I feel like I'm missing something ..

(Tue Feb 17 1998 06:36 - ID#183109)
Hillary Rodham Clinton's Commodity Trading Secrets

(Tue Feb 17 1998 06:44 - ID#432148)
Getting Feb. 14 Drudge Report fine at: also Bloomberg. Very interesting report. Good luck.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 06:53 - ID#30116)
Will golds bounce last this morning???

TED -- NO WAY! ( Me, the infamous BC? ) :- ) )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 07:25 - ID#426220)

The last half of 1997 witnessed one of the most devastating
stock market meltdowns and coincident currency chaos since
World War II. It's epicenter was and remains Southeast Asia.
And since all world economies have become inextricably
connected, and therefore dependent, the woes of Asia are
relentlessly exporting their destruction to other parts of the

Due to the continuing turmoil in the Asia in recent months,
financial media is plastered with stories of how the economic
plight of the Far-East may well reach Occidental shores in the
not too distant future. To keep abreast of what is occurring in
the Orient, and how it may affect the western banking,
financial and monetary systems, golden-eagle has created
an entirely new section devoted entirely to the Far-East. It is
called the "Asian Corner."

The current crisis in Asia and its contagion effect - now known
as "The Domino Effect" - threatens to infect Western
economies. Therefore, the Western world has brought Asia
into sharp focus. Businessmen from Boston to Buenos Aires to
Bern to Berlin to Bahrain to Baghdad must necessarily concern
themselves of what is occurring in Asia - and what impact
currency devaluations and massive loan defaults will have on
Western economies from Wall Street down to Main Street.

Undoubtedly, the deterioration of Asia's economic and
financial sectors will us affect us ALL. Therefore, the "Asian
Corner" will try to cover the most important economic,
financial and monetary sectors to keep us updated on latest
developments. As Asia goes... so goes the West

ASIAN CORNER seen at following URL ( just delete the
letters en in the word Golden

(Tue Feb 17 1998 07:56 - ID#26793)
Morning dollar, yen and especially note Swiss franc news

(Tue Feb 17 1998 07:57 - ID#258427)
Go figure!!
Dollar strong ... Asia Up ... Europe up ...SnP up 5 ..and yet Gold and Silver up as well....go figure!!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 07:58 - ID#258427)
How the heck do you spell

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:01 - ID#26793)
Japan leans toward Indonesian Currency Board over IMF, US other objections

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:09 - ID#26793)
Japan Banks; how much dirt should go under the rug?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:10 - ID#330175) not BC
That's a relief!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:17 - ID#26793)
India gold jewelers on strike over customs hassle and supply problems

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:18 - ID#333131)
Donald's 7:56, Swiss f as a "safe haven currency"?
Isn't that the nest best thing to gold?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:21 - ID#26793)
Investor funds leaving Mexico; destination Brazil.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:25 - ID#330175)
NUKE Gilles Duceppe....................................but ....*go team gold*

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:25 - ID#333131)
Indonesian firing(maybe this was posted earlier, but my browser doesn't let me go back)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:32 - ID#26793)
@Carl; Gold and the Swiss franc (repost from yesterday)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:38 - ID#26793)
Placer Dome silver news, Bema news (6 days old)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:41 - ID#26793)
Bema founder jumps ship for Treminco

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:48 - ID#330175)
To BART(2:08)........................................S+P futures up 6.20
Watch the 'ethnic slurs' buddy~~~~~~~~~~

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:49 - ID#26793)
Update on Morgan-Korea derivative lawsuit

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:53 - ID#26793)
Korean party to Morgan suit limit down in Korean trading

(Tue Feb 17 1998 08:55 - ID#330175)
Glad I don't live in California......................from SUNNY Cape Breton
EB:Did a giant mud-slide destroy yer ISP ( yer e-mail service ain't workin duuuude ) --------Looks like 'another' strong day for the*go gold* ( speakin of which,at least the usa's women's hockey team could beat the Canucks for the GOLD ( 3-1 ) ---know if only the men ( ? ) could get off their over-paid asses ( USA team =22 NHL players @ 56.5 MILLION/year )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:10 - ID#410114)
Warren Buffets exit from silver
Everyone seems to wonder how WB will exit from his silver postion.

It seems to be assumed that he will be unable to do this without taking a loss. Has Buffet told these people what his price target is? Did WB tell them the target is $10 or $15 or $ 20 or $ 50 or $100? If the price is high enough, WB could announce the day and time of his sale and he still would make money, but I guess WB hasn't thought of this.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:17 - ID#410114)
Hello Mozel:

Panama has been on a one for one with the US for years. Even thier coins are minted in the US . The coins are the same size but with differnt stamps.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:19 - ID#31868)
No wonder
Reading an article a friend clipped from Newsday on precious metals. The writer is a guy by the name of James Glassman. He says central banks around the world have decided that gold is a dog, dead thing and that the CBs are replacing their gold with dollars.

Also says Buffett is trying to outsmart everyone with his purchase of silver. Refers to 100 ounce bars of silver as those "things" you sometimes see in the movies?!?

Suggests if you "must" buy mining stocks Barrick or Hecla. Says Barrick is the best run mining stock in the world.

Generalized sweeping statements, no true knowledge of the metals markets and yet he is writing to millions.

Says that the metals lack the main attraction of stocks, human imagination.

Not one mention of metal as a store of value, nothing about the paper buring all over the world.

Also he states there are plenty of bargains in the stock market. Nothing about the dangers of buying into a market that by any stretch is due for a correction, let alone the deflationary plague coming from Asia.

I will hand him a quarter when he cleans my windshield.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:23 - ID#187218)
While doing some house-cleaning,,,, ran across some email msgs from FRB last year,,,,
Subject: Re: Profits
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:31:37 -0500
From: Rob Grunewald (> )
To: ...WetGold...

At 10:06 AM 9/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
:As a private corporation, where do the profits of the FRB go ?
:Are they allocated amongst its shareholders or are they returned to the
:U.S. Treasury ?
:Thank you.
Profits are paid to shareholders ( member banks of the Federal Reserve System receive a standard 6% dividend per year ) , and used to pay operation expenses ( salaries, hardware, etc. ) ; the remainder is returned to the U.S. Treasury.

Subject: Re: Profits
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:54:03 -0500
From: Rob Grunewald ( )
To: ...WetGold...

At 11:15 AM 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
:Thanks so much for responding to my questions. Can you also tell me how
:to acquire shares of this Corporation since I would like to see a 6%
:yield. Thanks again!

Shareholders are member banks ( includes all national chartered banks and qualifying state chartered banks ) of the Federal Reserve System; therefore, there isn't publically traded shares of Federal Reserve stock.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:27 - ID#210235)
Phone has been sporadic these past 2 weeks. On a couple hours then off. Maybe EB, a bit south of us, too. Try again in a few hours.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:37 - ID#340459)
@POLARBEAR, Thanks for your post of Hillary's financial dealings, very murky indeed....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:40 - ID#318118)
@John Disney
Thanks for the S.A. info. I feel much more comfortable with Harmony now!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:41 - ID#340459)
@tolerant1, Enjoyed your post at 9:16, Sadly Millions are listening to these so called Experts like
this Glassman bloke...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:42 - ID#31868)
US is arrogant and agressive
The US is going to pay dearly for what "our" government is doing. To contiually hammer Japan publicly will be the economic death of the US.
The dollar is about to be seen for the piece of paper that it is with no backing. The same with the Coward Elect.

Bad times are escalating. While the market pushes higher there is much afoot in the world that spells doom for those with their life savings in a now obviously mania driven market.

The underlying currents are getting stronger and stronger. Seek high ground, when this undertow hits it will be devastating.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:43 - ID#31868)
Truly 'tis sad commentary. But, they are all big boys and girls. When the day comes I will have compassion but no sympathy for them.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:43 - ID#39971)
T1 -----Glassman's Da Man

Yer right dude.He has no background in PMs.So heeers James?Send a note!

Gee......his Asian diversification wasn't such a great idea either.

Ted.What's a " bodycheck "?Never heard of that penalty.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:44 - ID#340459)
DOW is shooting up like a Rocket...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 09:50 - ID#210235)
Well, there go our chances of learning to trade like Hillary. Guess it's always been who you know. What stumps me is where ol' BJ and his missus dug up their entourage of sleezeballs and low lifes. A unique collection.

The links out of your Hillary post leads to some scathing analysis of technical trading, very similar to my own views. Any feedback by those who still use technical methods re metals markets would be read with interest.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:00 - ID#206379)
Tough problem, sometime in the future he has to decide how many worthless pieces of green paper he will trade for each ounce of silver.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:00 - ID#340459)
Man, These guy's are too smart for us, Money is pouring in Wall Street..
Gold dont go down with a whimper, Man has trusted you for centuries..

Spud Master
(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:07 - ID#273112)
@JTF & Aurator
JTF - Why should ANY nation pay up on its derivative losses? The whole scheme is rigged from the get-go. The Koreans, Indonesians - yea, they were *stupid* to ever think that their dealings with Wall Street would be a fair game. But just think, if they stiff Wall Street Boyz for the derivative loss ... POOF! goes the lushy lifestyle of the rich & infamous New Yorkers.

Aurator - LBW? Cricket? In East Texas? Are you kidding? That cultural nadir of the Earth? ( chuckle ) . Ah thoughts we only chewed snuff, 'roped goats and tore up da earth in our bad pickemuptrucks. Per Mista Grisham, that is. Actually, we have some rather fine cricket teams. As our fine Mr. Disney has observed, re. South Africa/Georgia, in ten years time East Texas will be a beatific & lush land compared to the sotto voce, de facto racism of New England seaboard.

Obligatory National Public Radio Rant: Once again, NPR managed to focus its morning radio content on New England while ignoring 99.9% of the rest of America, and mentioning little about gold and nothing at all about silver & impending COMEX implosion. I'll try to restrain the East Texas shock troops as they storm ashore Boston, providing flanking cover while the main force of troops storms the Beltway...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:09 - ID#340459)
Looks like they are buying Russia's neutrality now..I think Kuwait and Saudi's pays Bills,latest CNN
Yeltsin-Zhirinovsky shouting match

Yeltsin referred to the standoff between Iraq and U.N. weapons
inspectors only briefly, saying a diplomatic solution was still possible.
"The use of force is the last option and a highly dangerous one," he

Nevertheless, "Russia is
going to sternly insist that
( Iraq ) fulfill the resolutions
of the United Nations
Security Council," he said.

At the end of Yeltsin's
speech, ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky shouted out: "Boris
Nikolayevich ( Yeltsin ) , only you can stop ( a war ) . All the world is
looking at Moscow."

Yeltsin, who had returned to his seat, responded, "There is not a
single person in the hall who deals with Iraq more than I do."

Zhirinovsky returned to Russia
Tuesday from Iraq, where he led a
parliamentary delegation that
expressed solidarity with Iraqi
President Saddam Hussein.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:21 - ID#23398)
Gold stocks doing ok this morning

RYO UP .10 TO 1.90
TVX UP .11 TO 4.25
AGE UP .15 TO 8.40
PGU UP .03 TO .56
WIM UP .O1 TO .48 even the dogs are up.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:25 - ID#325184)
Gold Rebound
Any new thoughts on when gold is expected to rebound? Will it happen this year?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 10:35 - ID#341214)
APH: Silver
APH: Thanks for your last update. I had missed your late message on 2/12. I just got in at 7.12 on the little correction we have had in the last hour. Wish all the silver players a good ride.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:00 - ID#335190)
February 17, 1998
A corrected version follows.

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Slower manufacturing activity and unseasonably warm weather put the brakes on U.S. industrial output in January, the Federal Reserve saidTuesday ( corrects day ) .

Production by the nation's mines, factories and utilities was flat at the beginning of 1998, the first month since October 1996 that output failed to increase. Utility companies, normally busy in January meeting winter heating requirements, slashed their output by four percent, the Fed said.

But the U.S. central bank also noted some easing in overall manufacturing. "Production in the manufacturing sector, moderating from the strong pace seen last fall and summer, grew 0.4 percent in December and 0.3 percent in January," the Fed said. It was the slowest growth in manufacturing since last September when it rose a scant 0.1 percent.

Wall Street economists had forecast a 0.2 percent increase in January industrial output and a stronger capacity use rate of 83.3 percent.

A second straight monthly drop in production of autos and light trucks also contributed to flat January output. Carmakers cut their production by 1.5 percent in January following a 3.7 percent plunge in December, the Fed said.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:00 - ID#330175)
@ Cape Breton(non-GOLD rage induced post)-scroll on by
During the past month of selling our house and the business ( duh,what's that ) related to that not ONE person has done anything they said they would do ( lotta talkin it's all BS ) or even had the courtesy ( In the land of such 'friendly' ( on the surface like everthing in CB ) to return a phone call ( where I'm from,that's called ) ...but there is an excuse for everthing in!!...Only here can the simplest proceedure be turned into a night ( or day ) -mare~~~away to Sydey to continue ta pound me feeble head against a brick wall....P.S. Thank god that I spent the first 98% of my stay here kayaking + hiking cause I'd be in a freakin 'loonie-bin' if I'd dealth with this INSANITY much loger than I've had to....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:01 - ID#254269)
Aussie mergers anticipated by De Crespigny;

hope this is not a duplicate post.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:02 - ID#330175)
Sorry for the spelling mistakes but I'm STUPID and I'm so mad I can't see--

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:12 - ID#22956)
Ted...and test....go gold
I is here.....what's yer prob? Test burrito wafting yer way. Go gold. And the loonie looks good under the current currency barrage. Time to buy poundage (  ) , eh? And, at least the wimmins team beat those northerners!!! Yes!

d.a. - thanks for the repost ( chart ) . I have missed some stuff.

btw, I am in the Spud camp ( can't believe I said that ) on this ANOTHER thing. It has changed it's 'tune' MANY times. Decent enough stuff. But I won't hang my hat on his words. I WILL stuff it in my pipe ( so to speak ) and smoke it though.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:13 - ID#330175)
On my way out the door
More useful information from the Nation's Capitol...
An ostrich's eye is bigger than it's brain.

A pregnant goldfish is called a twit.

It was discovered on a space mission that a frog can throw up. The frog
throws up it's stomach first, so the stomach is dangling out of it's mouth.
Then the frog uses it's forearms to dig out all of the stomach's contents and
then swallows the stomach back down again.

White Out was invented by the mother of Mike Nesmith ( Formerly of the
Monkees ) .

In England, the Speaker of the House is not allowed to speak.

Studies show that if a cat falls off the seventh floor of a building it has
about thirty percent less chance of surviving than a cat that falls off the
twentieth floor. It supposedly takes about eight floors for the cat to
realize what is occurring, relax and correct itself.

Your stomach has to produce a new layer of mucus every two weeks, otherwise
will digest itself.

101 Dalmatians and Peter Pan ( Wendy ) are the only two Disney cartoon features
with both parents that are present and don't die throughout the movie.

'Stewardesses' is the longest word that is typed with only the left hand.

To escape the grip of a crocodile's jaws, push your thumbs into its eyeballs-
will let you go instantly ... please don't try this at home.

Reindeer like to eat bananas.

If a statue in the park of a person on a horse has both front legs in the
air, the person died in battle; if the horse has one front leg in the air, the
person died as a result of wounds received in battle; if the horse has all
four legs on the ground, the person died of natural causes.

No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver, and

Only two people signed the Declaration of Independence on July 4th, John
and Charles Thomson. Most of the rest signed on August 2, but the last
signature wasn't added until 5 years later.

"I am." is the shortest complete sentence in the English language.

The most common name in the world is Mohammed.

Mel Blanc ( the voice of Bugs Bunny ) was allergic to carrots.

The very first bomb dropped by the Allies on Berlin during World War II
killed the only elephant in the Berlin Zoo.

In Casablanca, Humphrey Bogart never said "Play it again, Sam."

Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson."

More people are killed annually by donkeys than die in air crashes.

A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

The average person falls asleep in seven minutes.

Hershey's Kisses are called that because the machine that makes them looks
like it's kissing the conveyor belt.

Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie.
Stranger than Fiction
In the movie "Back to the Future II" a character 'Bif' obtains a Sports
Almanac and goes back to the past to give it to his younger self. Then he
became very wealthy by betting on games when he already knew the outcome. In
an obscure line, the young Bif says "Florida is going to win the World Series
in1997, yeah right." The Florida Marlins won the World Series this year.
What is really eerie is that when this movie came out in 1987, Florida didn't
have a baseball team.
Only the individual sender is responsible for the content of this
message, and the message does not necessarily reflect the position
or policy of the National Education Association or its affiliates.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:16 - ID#26793)
China issues its daily "We will not devalue" press release

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:17 - ID#330175)
EB----------test recieved and no prob's here bro
As I load the AK-47~~~~~~~bbMl...and * go gold*

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:18 - ID#341214)
APH: Ow! and Wow
APH: What did I do? That "little" correction crashed right through the floor. Ah well, I'm out. Better luck next time.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:22 - ID#254269)
Taiwanese Central Banker killed in plane crash; Did anyone else see this ?
Today's WSJ Page A17; has a story about the China Airlines plane crash. Amongst the passengers was Sheu Yuan-dong , the governor of Taiwan's Central Bank. He was returning to Taiwan from the Indonesian island of Bali. The loss leaves a big gap i Taiwan's central bank, according to the article.

Sorry for partial postings but real busy last couple of days with some other things. Willl post as time permits.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:24 - ID#224151)
..coming up Roses?
The longer THEY keep this market from undergoing a natural ( non-manipulative )
corrective process the greater the MANIA presssure builds.And the perception that this
time its different... that the old laws dont apply anymore.As the pace picks up again
on the Dow its beginning to look as though a Puetz type exhaustion crash can be the
ONLY unhappy climax....from much higher ground. Then it will begin to dawn that those
mouth-watering % gains of the last couple of years in the beloved MFs were nothing
more than the vacuum the Dow is leaving behind in its mad dash for the Roses.But what
does a frustrated Goldbug know?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:24 - ID#26793)
Treasury holding secret meeting on Asia. Attendees will not be identified

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:28 - ID#31876)
USAgold, Always An Enjoyable Read...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:31 - ID#57232)
Economy weakening, SEAsia derivatives default!
6pak: Looks like the US markets don't know the economy is weakening a bit. I guess we wait for those US bank quarterly earnings reports to come out -- with SEAsia derivatives losses included. I wonder how long they can keep from reporting it. I wonder -- is our market bull so strong that mediocre economic news has no effect? Perhaps we are still seeing a foreign 'flight to safety' in the US markets. If our market rally is due to a 'flight to safety', gold and gold stocks may rally with the US markets. A serious whiff of inflation will also drive gold/gold stocks up.

SpudMaster: Love your comment on the WallStreet derivatives losses in SEAsia. Kind of doubtful that the South Korean, or Indonesian or other SEAsian courts are going to be sympathetic -- and if so, how will they pay their creditors?

Sounds like the IMF has not come to terms with the fact that the SEAsian countries must address local issues of currency liquidity first to get their respective economies back on line -- to prevent further deflation. Other debt issues such as derivatives defaults will be the last to be addressed.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:32 - ID#31868)
I would call the USA GOLD write up enjoyable. In fact, I will have an extra shot or two of Cuervo at lunch today.

Off to get into the Mexican mindset. BBL

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:32 - ID#358318)
1 Asian central bank chief killed in plane crash, 1 Asian central bank chief sacked by President Suharto of Indonesia...
To lose one central banker is unfortunate, to lose two is carelessness...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:36 - ID#187218)
Gold's purchasing power in several fiat currencies,,,

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:42 - ID#254269)
Australian editorial re Indonesia ; from Melbourne Age

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:43 - ID#372262)

Looks like another juiced-up Monday morning rally to allow the major longs to liquidiate to the eager lemmings fearful of missing out on another Dow gravy train! Watch out! This market is due to collapse once first quarter earnings start reflecting the Asian weakness now accelerating!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:46 - ID#288331)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:48 - ID#429245)
What happened to silver, plunging to 6.78 in ten minutes and then up again?

Barb Hughes
(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:49 - ID#20783)
@fundaMETAList & ALL

Heard simular rumor as APH--from other sources...
Range could be 6.50 ( to ) 7.50 on March

Today is only for those with hearts of steel!!!

Silver Maiden in action today!!!

out of here & back to the war...

Take care...& steady nerves...Barb

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:51 - ID#288331)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:51 - ID#372262)

Tick now a negative -510 and falling fast! This DOW RALLY IS DISTRIBUTION! NO BROAD MARKET SUPPORT! COULD BE A BULL TRAP!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:55 - ID#25588)
FundaMETAList - I'm sorry to hear about your loss. In the future don't do the trade unless you can get the posted price or better ( in this case 7.00 ) , these trades are put on at points which provide minumim loss ( $500 in this case ) and hopefully at least enough gain to get a breakeven stop placed, today's stop was 6.97 one tick under Fri. low. Also, the market changes every day so do low risk entry prices. Another thing if the the paper profit is retraced by 50% move the stop up real close or just plain get out. I sold my silver at 7.11. Never ever chase a trade, if it doesn't come down to your price don't do the trade, tomorrow a whole new train load of potential trades are coming thru the station. Next time plan your trade determine what you are willing to risk and WAIT for your price. Good Luck.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:57 - ID#31876)
More On Korean Layoffs & Liquidations...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 11:59 - ID#57232)
Emergency US Treasury meeting: G7 +++ invited.
Donald: Looks like much more than a working session with SEAsian bankers. Whatever the topic is, it is of worldwide significance. Currency boards? Debt defaults? And -- why is the IMF not the organizer? Is this a matter affecting the US dollar?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:00 - ID#342282)
Myrmidon and Harold B.
Mailed it out today, finally. Let me know if you have a problem

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:00 - ID#340459)
Who are the Bad Guys ? We cannot differentiate anymore..
Starr-crossed Iraq crisis and Oil squeeze

THE double-speak is getting quite deafening. President Clinton tells us that the decision to bomb Iraq is not in his hands and is actually in the hands of Saddam. Isnt US doing the same by defying International opinion not to Strike a view held by almost all of UN members.

The UN secretary-general is reluctant to visit Baghdad unless he is assured of diplomatic success. The US has promised that it will settle the outstanding dues to the UN soon, if it behaves and authorize US action as Internationally legitimate;

Everyone keeps saying that they want to give diplomacy a chance, although the Americans also keep saying
that the string is running out. The string is only long enough for the military hardware to be put in place; and it
wouldnt it be an awful shame if all the aircraft carriers and stealth bombers were to be sent back without getting some
target practice. After all, they use only "smart" bombs a.k.a "kind" bombs that will not kill women
and children. Also, these bombs are not weapons of mass destruction, unlike chemical and biological weapons. As Napalm spray on thousands of villages used in the Indo-China war was only a Pentagon peeling agent. Also, NOW finally we can now destroy from the Air that Inspectors on the ground could not find for 6 years. Fact that UNSCOM has never been able to produce any tangible evidence of Chemical factories not with standing. All the International diplomatic effort should be redirected at
persuading Kenneth Starr and Monica Lewinsky to lay off President Clinton. That would allow the president to wriggle out of his planned noose and go back to running the US. -

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia supported the
policies of the US in order to win financial backing for attempts to put a free-market economy into place. Through these attempts the Russians lost their national identity and now everything is up for the highest bidder and Economy is run by mafia of Gangsters, Con men and prostitutes. They are at the mercy of International Banking handouts for any future economic progress

President Boris Yeltsin speaks out against America for appeasing the segment who still dream of Mother Russias glory days by words of opposition against US wanting to use force against Iraq. If Yeltsin was really serious, They would have vetoed the UN resolution which was tabled in the Security Council.

I hope that the thinking folks realize that Worlds Industrial heart through supply of cheap and plentiful energy is beating in Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait, in Bahrain, in Qatar and in the United Arab Emirates. Not in Wall Street or Fleet Street.

The huge oil reserves of these countries are a guarantee for the further development of our planet at low cost to humanity. Yet their contributions are much maligned through propoganda by forces that seldom eat honest bread.

Are Arab countries allowed to have a seat in the Security Council? Does the Western world even recognize the needs of the Arabs for dignity in Peace Accords entered into as USA was an guarantor for Implementation ?

Thanks to controlled media and propaganda machines in the West - the developments and positive
contribution of this part of the world are never reported.
The time is ripe for the Arab world to exert a strong influence on global policy making.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:07 - ID#288331)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:27 - ID#22956) is right.
thanking my lucky stars I did not choose to get in this am. Thought the consolidation was good for the bulls. How wrong can ya be. 2000.00 smackers in 30 minutes if you weren't lucky...ouch! are good to only lose 500 bucks....count your stars too... this a buy?? Has Silver topped?? Could be! hmmmmmmm.... Other markets look better now...... I pass my brass ones to someone else.... 'don' the kevlar

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:27 - ID#210235)
@Vernon Jordan
Here is a quick profile of one powerful dude Starr is up against.

Old Gold, your recent call on gold is right again. How about being wrong for a change. The gold bugs could use a break.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:29 - ID#22956)
very red board today


Barb Hughes
(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:31 - ID#20783)


See: OURO__A 2-12 19:42
Tuesday was what I heard..
Sorry got to run ..Barb

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:32 - ID#345176)

Strad Master
(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:36 - ID#250297)
Silver rumor
ALL: The rumor was that Phibro ( the company that did the silver buying for WB ) was selling. The fact that silver is bouncing right up seems to indicate that there isn't any substance to it. Time will tell, but it seems that WB wouldn't be so stupid as to try to dump his holdings quite so fast. He's going to have a hard time unwinding all his silver if at the first hint of selling everyone panics. Hang in there!!!

Barb Hughes
(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:37 - ID#20783)
P.S. 65M

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:41 - ID#341214)
APH: Thanks for the advice, I'll read it a couple of times...
APH: Didn't get hurt that bad. I was nervous about this situation so I went with a single small silver contract. I know firsthand how the bulls like to flush out the weak longs but this mornings action had me snookered. On to better things...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:50 - ID#288331)
If WB sold his silver now, wouldn't his entire action in the silver market be viewed as manipulation and give solid support to the Phibro lawsuit? It would seem out of character for a person of WB's reputation. I agree I would find it hard to believe unless there was conclusive proof ( unfortunately that would be too late to avoid the obvious impact on silver prices, at least for the near term ) . Accordingly, I remain strongly in the camp that higher silver prices are inevitable!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:50 - ID#222231)

(Tue Feb 17 1998 12:55 - ID#269409)
Silver...(And Gold & Platinum)
This may be the "buy" opportunity that many were waiting for. If I were on the sidelines, I'd be tempted to look at this week as a good time to move in...Clinton speech making at this very moment re his intention to bomb Iraw, wolrd opinion divided, times is somewhat perilous and many complacent folks don't realize it. Having a stake in the metals is wise at the moment, particularly with the DOW having just reached new record last week, and P/E valuations at record highs...corporate profits will be falling in the months ahead, not rising....Sorry to wander all over the map, rocket science busy today....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:02 - ID#269409)
@ Midas
Midas your 12:00 is the most brazenly unmitigated load of crap I've read in quite some time. "Unscom" hasn't fouund chemical weapons? They've found and had destroyed more chemical, and biological weapons than were destroyed in the Gulf war! The rest of yopur post is equally completely lacking in credibility.

Saddam has been building and using chemical weapons for years, waging war and invading his neighbors for use, nuhesitatingly using such weapons, including on women & children, and his own people ( the Kurds ) for years.

He lost the war after invading Kuwait, he signed agreements, he's been violating them ever since. If we let it continue, we'll ultimately have a conflagration in the regions the next time he attacks Israel or one of his Arab neighbors. Saddam will use whatever arsenal we allow him to build up, GUARANTEED. He's already demonsrated that.

It takes some pretty tortured reasoning to write a post like your 12:00. It's the kind of thinking that makes the world a more dangerous place, not less so. Face reality and put political agenda aside. Saddam is currently the worlds greatest menace, placating and negotiation has been proven to be completely useless in dealing with him. If anything, we're being way too cautious and reluctant to take unilateral action.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:09 - ID#258427)
Wonder what the chances are that
this big drop in silver ...-.32 is in anticipation of a big drawdown from comex today ... so that the big run up is from a lower number?? Sounds crazy ... but crazy is the word for the PM markets ...!!!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:19 - ID#258427)
Guess "that dog won't hunt"

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:25 - ID#224363)
Drawdown = Drop In Price ??
Okay...I must be missing something. How does a drawdown rumour result
in a 30-50 cent drop in silver prices ? Especially when part of the
explanation for the last few months of price jumps was a drop
in inventory.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:27 - ID#7568)

As best I can tell the silver story goes something like this.

Last week as options expiration drew near there was much talk in the market of a repeat performance of the Phibro play of 1995 whereby they took delivery of out of the money calls becaues it was the cheapest way to get hold of large quantities of silver. Examination of the open interest in the March option series showed that there was not going to be anything afoot because there were not enough relavant options to be exercised. This fact did not stand in the way of speculation, and many apparently bought last week as a hedge against 'the play'.

This morning, a large fund that has been supposedly dying to get in on the action finally took a position. This is what accounted for the early morning rise. After they had bought in the dealing community apparently turned around and started selling hard, both exiting last weeks long positions and trying to blow out the stops in the market which are seen in the 675-680 range in the cash market.

Since we are now trading at these levels ( 675 - 680 ) it is entirely possible that stops will be taken out. If this is the case we will probably hit 640 in very short fashion.

Our strategy in this game of late has been to put on hedges during spikes and to remove them on dips. Accordingly, we have just removed half of our hedge position. We will remove the remaining half on a break towards 640 basis cash.

As for the rumors of WB selling his silver, they are just that. My info is that Phibro has been a buyer of the dip and not a seller.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:28 - ID#28585)
Certainly, the U.S. government is afforded special powers in a war scenario to freeze financial flows in any manner it sees fit.

Obviously, stock market weakness might be perceived as a threat to the country. Mutual funds could be precluded from providing disbursements above and beyond a certain percentage or specified figure.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:32 - ID#340459)
LGB, You should be working for CNN, Everyone knows that Iraq and Saddam is finished militarily and
reason for Attack is to control Oil Monarchies and Israel. You forgot to mention that Saddam is greater threat than Hitler. By the Way LGB, How are you going to destroy Chemical weapons by bombing, Would that create a chemical Holocaust or maybe you dont care for lives other than your own

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:36 - ID#340459)
LGB, Dont worry your lust for War will be fulfilled, USA will attack Iraq first and then spread the
conflict in the region. In next 30 days your profit in Gold will be satiated, if that is your primary goal and dont kid me about high moral reason of US Policy..

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:40 - ID#358318)
Prohibition of mutual fund withdrawals
All it takes is an exemption order from the Securities and Exchange Commission...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:41 - ID#340459)
LGB, Iraq is but a bait that US is using to trap more important fish swimming in Oil, In case you
fail to see

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:44 - ID#227290)
Midas, Russia, LGB, & the VSE

I thought your 10:09 about Russia was very interesting. What I would like you to expand on is how Russia's neutrality is being bought. It certainly looks like Yeltsin is backing down in its opposition to Clinton.

As for LGB, I think you have misjudged him. It's not that he cares only for himself. No, he has a special interest in Israel. I'm trying to understand the nature of this special interest.

LGB, are you ( 1 ) Jewish, ( 2 ) a Christian premillenialist, ( 3 ) both, or ( 4 ) none of the above but a person who happens to take great interest in Israel for some other reason?

The Preacher

PS. -- The Vancouver Stock Exchange has moved above resistance at 630. The mining exploration stocks are doing better these days. I've mentioned Gold Canyon Resources before. It has moved from $.50 ( can ) to its current $1.40 ( can ) since the first of the year. Drill results are due out this week. We can only hope.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:46 - ID#197341)
O.I. up on GC J8
must be somebody out there who thinks gold under 300 is a
bargin,gold holding up pretty well compared to silver lets
hope its only silver draging it down.June silver 675 calls
less than 20 pts? sounds pretty good.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:47 - ID#255217)
Hi yo, silver
I steadfastly maintain that silver has a perverse nature. It seems to do what is most likely to get your goat the most. Gold and silver, good cop, bad cop, in that order. Love em both.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:51 - ID#340459)
Preacher, Russai is being brought off by money from Saudi's and Kuwaiti's
The former pays because they show they locals that they refused USA Air bases but are compelled to back US Policy and the latter pays because they are in Power because of USA. Yeltsin cannot refuse USA who control these pay offs. Zhirinovsky is the wild card still........

(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:53 - ID#17155)
Midas__A == Iraq is but a bait that US is using to trap more important fish swimming in Oil
I could not agree with you more. I have felt for a long time that US was looking for a war ( real one ) to solve its problems. After all, a war is a great excuse to break the Ponzi-scheme promises of Social Security, Medicare, Stoc-Market bubble, and other such nonsense.

US will acomplish nothing by bombing Iraq. For a real war, you need a Pearl-Harbor type shock. One possible scenario for it is a US provocation in which US ships suposedly get attacked by Iran ( a most perfect scapegoat ) .

Things like that are always done to start a war and pretend to its ignorant population that somebody else did it ( example Nazis in Polish uniforms murdering the staff of a German radio station ) .

So, LGB, and other Starship Troopers out there, put on your BAFF helmet and repeat after me:


(Tue Feb 17 1998 13:56 - ID#342282)
What's the best source for options quotes and schedules on gold and silver

Richard Burke
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:01 - ID#411318)
Iraq & War
Petronius: if the exhortation of your last line was supposed to be funny - it was not, and quite out of place.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:07 - ID#197341)
I got that quote ( s 675 ) off Ira Epstein"s 15 min delayed
quotes,lots of end of the day quotes,NYMEX click on contract
then under chart has options,click that,I also get I.B.D
seems to help get overall feel for the day to day changes
faster,also my broker has auto quote line that works well,
I'm sure there is lots more,good luck.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:07 - ID#201131)
Did anybody catch the TVX conference call today to explain there new hedging policy? I tried to get in and couldnt. Thanks in advance.

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:10 - ID#24135)
I'll tell you what I worry about at night - not Winnie
For tsclaw
Glad I made you feel better.
Dont worry about Harmony
Dont worry about Rangold
Dont worry about Dbn Deep
Dont worry about Strike Action next week
Dont worry about Winnie
Dont worry about Revolution here
Dont worry about What the kitco desperado contigent selectively
gleans from useless press clippings on RSA.
Dont worry about South Africa ... Its a picnic.. If it wasnt,
I'd move.

Richard Burke
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:13 - ID#411318)
D.A.: thanks for the commentary on this morning's silver action. It looks like those holding silver stocks do not think the correction is going to last long. SSO and FSR are still up . PAA is down.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:14 - ID#17155)
Richard: ===if the exhortation of your last line was supposed to be funny===
It was not meant to be funny! It was intended to be prophetic of what is to come!!!

Without a war, Bevis and Butthead would eventually figure out what the Anderson generation has done to them ( presenting them with $20 Trillion Bill, if you did not figure it out. )

Having a nice war will be just the thing that will make everybody happy. Bevis and Butthead will get the government to buy them a Nazi-style helmet and uniform, and get to vent their frustration by killing something bigger than frogs ( and they will even get medals for it ) .

Anderson will be happy that he is not the frog, Bubba will use "National Emergency" powers to lock Paula Jones up, Hillary will finally get to play soldier hero ( she was rejected by the Marines, in case you did not know ) .

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:20 - ID#342282)
Thanx a lot. I'll check Ira.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:22 - ID#26395)
For all the rhodiumbugs
Here's some rare news about rhodium:

Richard Burke
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:22 - ID#411318)
Gold GCJ8
To All: Gold futures bouncing off 299 support several times. XAU has broken below both 13 day EMA and 20 day MA. Will it lead gold down below the 299? If it does, hopefully the next run up will be a sustained one.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:24 - ID#197341)
wo,almost forgot,KITCO has a excelent option quote site'
I have it bookmarked,but if you go to home page and
cruise around you can find it ( try clicking on the icon
on the very left after you get the page with all the
icons at the bottom. ( got to keep some of your powder
dry for days like today )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:26 - ID#410198)
Question John Disney?
Whats the price of BILTONG do they sell it by the pound or the oz.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:30 - ID#238295)
Fundamentalist: If you will recall RJ -- one of the best analysts on this site -- recently wanrned against plunging into silver after the big runnup. Heed him next time.

Looks like we're getting that gold shakeout I have been expecting. Hopefully, the last one before $300 is decisively breached.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:30 - ID#153102)
The Way I Figure It
John Disney__A ( THIS is driving me CRAZY. ) ID#24135:
For Mozel/Carl/SDRer/..
ABX revenue checks out off take in 1997 at 410$/oz some
guy really pays that much more than the market for it.
WHO IS IT??? I think its about 3 mill ounces at say 70$ over
the market. So he pays 200-250 million$ more than he would have
to at spot.. gee thats a lot . Does Munk know who his offtakers
are ? Was his talk to the Central Bankers play acting. If
haggis is correct, the Oppenheimers are a direct link to the
Rothschilds ( sp? ) - surely they would know - they knew the
outcome of Waterloo before The British establishment did -
does everyone know but US???
I feel like I'm missing something ..

This is outline only, but the way I see it
The Asians are buying.
Didn't you report a Hong Kong outfit bought into S.A. gold mining ?

I think the rest of the world has looked at Argentina, seen the future, and doesn't like what they see: U.S. corporations with zero currency risk competing with their national companies burdened with currency risk and the overhead cost of protective derivatives and subject to currency attack at any time. That's the way it has to look to Europe and Japan.

The Asian Tigers were Wall Street's baby. Now the baby is on life support. Who caused that ? For what ultimate purpose ? I think Europe, London excluded, is getting more than a little antsy over U.S. dominance. I think Japan is tired of being under U.S. influence.
This Gulf thing looks like the actions of a country transitioning from commercial conquest for empire to military conquest for empire. That has to make everybody nervous.
I noticed that Indonesia came to Washington this time instead of Summers going to Jakarta. Is that travel reversal a sign of weakness or strength of influence ?

There is only one alternative to the greenback and to becoming a commercial colony of the U.S. Empire: gold.

That's why Munk asked his question of the European Central Bankers and not AG.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:30 - ID#269409)
@ Midas, Preacher...... Zhironovsky/Saddam
Zhironovsky and Saddam make great bedfellows. We'll be fortunate if Yeltsin is able to stave off Zhironovsky's nationalist movement, ( which would lead to WW3 no doubt ) .

Preacher, as to your question on my reasoning to be a supporter of Israel in this. Firstly, I've always found the thinly veiled anti-semiticsm that ocassionally resides here, to be nauseating and abhorrent. Secondly, I do indeed have personal beliefs that involve Israel's place in prophesy, but thirdly, Israel has consistently been our only true friend and ally in the region. The U.S. has also been their only true ally. Israel and the U.S. are democracy's who would use WMD's in today's world, only as an absolute last resort. Saddam would use them in a heartbeat, against Iran, Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, or anywhere else he thought he might get away with glorifying himself.

Vacuous anti war rhetoric is great and all, I certainly don't relish seeing my brother being sent tp the Guld yet again ( he's a Blackhawk pilot and gulf war vet ) . However, our only 2 choices in this matter is to

a ) Let diplomacy continue to fail until Saddam attacks one of his neighbors and destablises the world or;

b ) Enforce the U.N. resolutions Saddam agreed to when he lost the Gulf war.

Saddam has spent no less than 1 BILLION dollars plus on building/hiding his current WMD's ( a well verified number ) at a time when his populace is starving....and he has clearly demonstrated he'll use these weapons agressively and without provocation, toward his neighbors as he has many times. Why anyone would lend support to this madman is completely beyond me.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:39 - ID#28585)
Unfortunately, SEC policy is subject and subordinate to executive branch directives.

If the president deems a stock market panic to be a national security threat, then a freeze on mutual funds flows is a virtual certainty.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:40 - ID#254269)
Bert Dohmen's forecast; Gold's upside potential limited to 315-320; Dow could go to 8800

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:42 - ID#368244)
best price on saints

I would like to buy $20 SAINTS MS63 or better, graded and slabbed need help to find best price. Quantity 100 piece lots. Anyhelp with best price would be appreciated. Isure@

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:42 - ID#28585)
I meant to say "freeze on mutual funds WITHDRAWALS."

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:44 - ID#24135)
This is making me nauseous .. YUK
To all
Echo bay .. whew .. another one. Hey chevey..look at the Very simple
math... revenue 305.4 - loss 57.8 ignoring non recurring costs of 362.7
million ( well now lets hope that little lulu is non recurring ..since
that loss is bigger than their revenue ) .. They had "non recurrings' last
year I recall .. they recur but in different reincarnations.
They produced 721,000 oz of gold and 11 mil silver
use 50/1 au/silver ratio to put it in terms of gold and we get 721000
plus 220000= 941,000 oz of gold equivalent.
SO..... ( 305.4 + 57.8 ) / ( .941 ) = 385$/oz. avg cost .. If we want to
add back the non recurring item we get a stunning 725.9/.941= $771/oz
which I think puts them in the running for some kind of special prize.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:51 - ID#340459)
LGB, No one likes Saddamn, it is futile to insinuate that, I agree fully that America is Israel's
ally, maybe not vice-versa and at this loyalty is at a cost, USA will continue to aid Israel to the tune of $ 4-5 billion officially and US troops backed by American tax payer will fight to annihilate any potential threat to Israel, A sweet arrangement for Tel Aviv. But these actions are diluting support for US actions globally. SE Asia is strongly suspicious of Soros/IMF nexus. The War with civilian losses will alienate US support amongst Muslim nations. You dont need NASA to make chemical weapons any Lab can do that and experts say that a suitcase full can destroy a city, so please explain how the "smart bombs" can pin point and destroy Chemical agents without polluting the region. USA can remove Saddam through other means, but that apparently is not the intent, otherwise it would have been done in Gulf War and would have been a condition for Iraq's surrender. Please think deeply and decide if it is a good strategy in the long term interests of US of A.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:54 - ID#410198)
Gold flat to lower Numismatics just saw $10.00 across board increase, go figure

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:55 - ID#24135)
Biltung - do they mine it?? - its tough enough.
For robnoel
They sell it by the 100 grams I think. Ill have to check.
I know its pretty pricey. I gave up on it because it jams
in my teeth. Actually the most dangerous thing in South Africa
is the meat diet . The expressway to a triple bypass. Next is
the low price of booze and cigarettes. Next come speeding
cars. Then I dont know ..alligators.. maybe ??

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:55 - ID#269409)
@ Studio.R......Gold St. Gaudens...risk/rewards
Re the Gold "Saint Gaudens" discussion, there are big risks in "Saints" and this is from someone who has promoted them here. If you have a dealer you're happy with and whom you trust, and tha grade of the "Saints" you're getting is TREU M/S 60 BU, then the price is not unreasonable. My only reservation there, is that Numismaticists have gotten a bad name over the years, because in so many cases, "Saints" and other types of "investment" coins, were grossly overpriced and sold as "BU" coins when in fact they are "dipped" ( cleaned ) AU's, worth quite a bit less.

The spread on bullion coins like AEs and Maples is typically $10 to $20. The spread on Saints can be much much higher if dealing with a dealer who is misleading their customers about investment grade Saints. An easy way to determine whether your dealer is giving you the straight dope;

a ) Ask for a true buy/sell spread on the "M/S 60" coins they are shipping you. It ought to be less than $40. If you get ANY hedging at all, ANY song and dance from them about a spread, then theyre taking you for a long ride off a short pier.

b ) Ask them whether theyll back their M/S 60 + grade if you send the coins in for certification. If you get hedging, ditto above pier comment.

c ) If A and B result in your getting a spiel about how grading is subjective, or dealers never guarantee their grading beyond their 10 day return policy, or these coins are sold retail in a different manner than bullion coins, hence they cant specify spreads, etc.....long ride off short pier.....

d ) If theyre a retail coin dealer, than they shouldnt misrepresent their coins as investment type M/S 60 or BU Saints, because retail coin prices will be typically 15% to 40% or more of what the coins are worth wholesale.

To the non expert coin grader, a dipped AU "Saint" actually looks BETTER and "newer" and more Uncirculated in overall appearance than a TRUE BU which has not been "dipped". Casual observation will not reveal wear, even under magnification, in fact it'll look pristine, to a non expert.

Yet a dipped AU is indeed worth SUBSTANTIALLY LESS less, than a true BU, M/S 60. Those who are not experts in this field, are constantly taken for a ride via this ploy, an unfortuante blight on an unregulated sector of our marketplace, Numismatics, and coin dealing.

All that disclaimer said, I definitely believe that "Saints" have a great place in Gold investment portfolios for a number of reasons that have been described here many times before. Less downside risk due to Numismatic value "floor", better upside potential in an "up" Gold market as premiums increase, Non confiscability as they are Numismatic pieces, and then we can add to this the joy of owning the World's most beautiful coin design of all time, and a piece of history.

The one problem with all this is that in order to really benifit from these pluses, one MUST buy accurately graded, true BU coins, at the best possible price, from a dealer who backs their grading, and gives a genuine unconditional buy/sell spread. In my estimation, only about 10% or less of the coin buying public buys Saints in this manner.

Bullion coins like Maples and AE's are easy for the average guy to understand. The spreads are small when dealing with most large reputable dealers. This is not the case with "Saints" , thus folks need to do a bit more homework, or they'll be giving away their investment premium uneccessarily, to dealers who know that the public at large will never be able to tell the difference between dipped AU's and true "BU's".

To answer your question of yesterday, re spiritual renewal experience, the answer is yes. Not sure I'd equate same with hapiness though, more like fulfillment. "Happiness" is a relative term, and an emotion and I don't equate the two. A mass murderer may feel "happy" as he's committing his crime, yet he may not be fulfilling his true purpose in life. no??

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:56 - ID#238295)
Bad day for all commodities, not just the PMs. Down sharply across the board.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 14:57 - ID#225273)
Midas -- I told you so.

If you've seen LGB's last post you'll see that he operates from altruistic motives, not selfish ones.

I still don't know the answer to my question. He raised the spectre of anti-semitism, although with what's been said here I don't know how he could define the term other than "anthing less than total submission to the will of Israel."

LGB, how would you define anti-semitism as you used it in connection to our discussion.?

The Preacher

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:02 - ID#24135)
Its driving me nuts
to mozel..carl.. SDRer
Look .. if ABX has an offtaker at 410$/oz there must be
a long term contract of some type.. Who is the counter party??
Who is at the other end of all these hedges .. Its not the
tooth fairy. The 300$ gold price is silly as almost nothing
is sold at that price .. or is it?? .. I think Im losing my

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:05 - ID#333131)
Help! Those of you who follow large #'s of gold mines.
Is it my imagination or is the action in the mines dividing itself ( rationally ) into two groups? The survivors and the junk?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:06 - ID#28585)
American complaceny re: financial markets is at its highest level in history. WOW!!

The markets either do not believe there will be a confrontation or presume that such confrontation will be a cakewalk for America.

The total absence of fear is in itself the most scary thing about this impending conflict.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:06 - ID#410198)
LGB This is 1998 not 1984 does supply/demand mean anything to you.
Numismatics are priced based on this basic 101 principal,sounds like you just had a bad experiance there are more scum bags on wall street than the coin industry,

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:06 - ID#269409)
@ Isure...slabbed Saints
Now you have the right idea. Buying em slabbed by NGC/PCGS and shopping for best price, you can't get hurt that way in "Saints". Though I would never rule out "raw" Saints either, for folks who truly know what they're doing.

Good luck, and post your e mail address for folks to recommend dealers to you as Bart woudn't take kindly to "ads" or recommendations here.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:11 - ID#429245)
$410 ABX hedge
Doesn't that just mean that ABX sold futures contracts short when they were valued at $410, and now they are delivering on them ( or holding them ) ? Of course the value is not $410 now, but that is what they received for them when they made the hedge.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:13 - ID#340459)
Preacher,If Not siding with War rhetoric is being 'anti-semite'? Then most of the world opposing it
'anti-semites' too while using our good friend LGB's logic

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:14 - ID#333131)
John Disny
I too have always been curious about the way Barrick's forward program really works. Obviously they have been experts at sticking buyers with above market gold for many years. I've combed their reports each year and have not been very enlighted. Your prodding led me to send a desperation e-mail to them asking for their help in understanding their program. I'm not holding my breath.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:16 - ID#333131)
Johm DisnEy, Sorry

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:18 - ID#269409)
@ Preacher...Israel
To answer re anti-semiticsm. I get a little worried when I see Israel dragged into the Iraq/US discussion prematurely as a central figure. It always raises warning flags in my mind, because Saddam is the one who always trys to use the anti-semitic ploy to garner support.

Israel is not the major player in this issue. Israel's only role in this is to try and maintain national security. Remember it was Israel who got all the SCUD's lobbed at them in the Gulf war, even though they showed enough restraint ( at U.S request ) not to retaliate. This time around however, Israel has made it clear that any unprovoked attack will mean response. Saddam the coward, understand what that means, and will not send the SCUDS their way this time around

Israel is not the central issue here.It's Saddam and his continous flaunting of the U.N. accords since the very day he signed them. It's his propensity to indiscrimitaely use WMD's that he's pouring all his country's resources into as his populace starves. The U.S. is really the only true superpower left in the world power brokering arena, with the resources and fortitude to stop this madman....and stop him we should.

It'll be unfortunate if "Wag the dog" syndrome prevents our so called Commander in Chief from fulfilling his duty. Where's Ronald Reagan when we need him? If Reagan had presided over the Gulf war instead of Bush, we wouldn't be facing this dilemna now, Saddam would have been long gone at the climax of the Gulf war...

You bet I'd rather see a military action now, that destroys Saddam's capabilities, than to wait 10 years and see my son waltzing off to the Guld to face chemical and biological weapons. Any other view is ( IMHO ) quite naive. My only real concern with bombing is that it won't get the job done, that is intended. In that regard, I have some sympathy with the "all or nothing" crowd who'd like to see declaration of war resulting in Saddam's permanent removal.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:20 - ID#28585)
Echo Bay is a complete disaster...I imagine bankruptcy filing should be imminent.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:23 - ID#333131)
I think there must be a more complicated program than buying and selling futures. That would cap their price received if gold rose. They have claimed in the past to be able to delay delivery on these arrangements if the price rises.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:25 - ID#368244)
@ LGB ref. Saints

Thanks L.G.B. for your response, as noted, my e- mail is

John Disney__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:36 - ID#24135)
Echo Bay will come back - new management contract
for Farfel ..
All our talk of cartoon characters and the role they play
in business decisions has caught on .. There is a stong rumour
that ECO has a new management contract .. with .. who were they.
Larry .. Curly ... and Moe.
Just noticed RYO at 1.75 ?? - are you piling in ?? the mice
are sure running - as well as the other animals.
For GW.. I knew somebody would come up with a "paper"
answer to the problem. Now wait .. how could they sell short
at 410 when the price was never near 410 .. wait a minute.
could you run that by a little slower please???

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:39 - ID#252150)
Mozel@Very good analysis re:foreign Cos with currency risk
trying to compete against U.S, Cos that have no currency risk. That's the reason why I never had any doubt that EMU would go ahead. They realize that if they don't hang together , then they will hang separately. With Soros as the U.S. attack dog only huge economies with strong banking systems can withstand an attack. By forcing Japan to implement very loose fical/monetary policies, to the point where their debt is 115% of their gdp, they are well on the way to destroying the Japanese economy.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:42 - ID#153102)
The Way I Figure It, part 2
The people who have surfaced as taking physical delivery of gold are Asians and the Middle-East.

The only way sellers who cannot deliver make money is if the market goes down. Think of gold as a currency under attack, the difference being you can bypass the paper traders. Gold is under all production figures you have found. Seriously under. The only gold it would make sense to actually part with at $300 is gold you have borrowed.

Also, consider this on the gold loans: Isn't it a situation ripe for default from the getgo ? What can you do if I don't bring your gold back and I don't have it any more and the people who do have it are far away and well armed ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:49 - ID#28585)
The size on the stock in the last 15 minutes ....
last I looked 40,000 shares trying to sell
with unlimited buy orders in..

Somebody is accumulating in a big you think its the Pig Lady???

(Tue Feb 17 1998 15:50 - ID#31868)
farfel - mozel
farfel - the coward elect nor any other president has the right of law under the Consitution to implement the Emergency War Powers Act. It is treason plain and simple. It is totally against all that is the Constitution, especially with the coward elect bacon fat in office.

Mozel - you Sir are quite correct in stating that the Japanese are about to let the world know about the arrogance and stupidity of the US govt. There will be more than hell to pay when the fine people of Japan and their brain dead govt put the round peg in the round hole.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:01 - ID#153102)
They have to have gold to do it or they have to have the agreement of their neighbors to become commercial colonies pegged to the yen like Argentina is pegged to the greenback.

You can either suppose the SEAsia currency collapse was an accident or an action with the intention of advancing or preventing the US from making Asia into its commercial colony. The IMF package advances that agenda. But the fact IMF funding is not lined up indicates SE Asia currency crisis was not an American idea.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:04 - ID#340459)
Pegasus has gone up by 30% within a week inspite of low gold prices, The Volume is considerably up
today. Wishing you all the best in your investments

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:07 - ID#254269)
Dow closed at 8399 (up 28 points or 0.34%), S & P 500 closed at 1023 (up 2.59 points),

30 yr. bond at 5.796%. Volume on NYSE at 590 million shares. NASDAQ volume at 692 million shares. Not an overly busy day in terms of volume.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:10 - ID#238295)
gold stock action
Gold stock action VERY BAD today. XAU down 4.3%, HUI off 2.7%. Each closed at the low of the day.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:10 - ID#153102)
@Tolerant1 @JohnD
T1: I dispute your conclusions of law regarding War Powers, but I don't wish to debate it here.

JohnD: doesn't loaned gold that will never be returned make sense of the market price ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:15 - ID#340459)
It is said that there is a simple reason for most complex scenario's. Who is really benefitting or
winning by low gold prices ? it beats me......

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:18 - ID#252150)
LGB@What if they had a war & nobody came?
But the U.S. & their brave & staunch ally just bombed the sh!t of a 3rd world defenceless Country, further pauperizing millions of innocent civilians. A proud moment in U.S. doubt. Right up there with the bombing of Laos & Cambodia.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:23 - ID#368244)
@ Robnoel
Thanks my man, got slightly better pricing based on your info from my coin dealer. Could not have done it with out your help.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:25 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.20 ( This is not a new high )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:26 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .246

Barb Hughes
(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:28 - ID#20783)

Check your E-Mail if you still need help.
Take care... Barb

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:28 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 43.87

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:29 - ID#31868)
mozel - kind Sir, some thoughts from the ant head
Date: Tue Feb 17 1998 16:01
mozel ( @Tolerant1 ) ID#153102:

They have to have gold to do it or they have to have the agreement of their neighbors to become commercial colonies pegged to the yen like Argentina is pegged to the greenback.

We know not of their holdings of gold, yet. Ethnicity is woven into the SE Asian peg to the yen. The Argentines are a part of South America, yes. Ethnicity will run deeper than paper backed by the word of the round eye. Especially when the "macho" of the round eye paper is truly supported from the east.

You can either suppose the SEAsia currency collapse was an accident or an action with the intention of advancing or preventing the US from making Asia into its commercial colony. The IMF package advances that agenda. But the fact IMF funding is not lined up indicates SE Asia currency crisis was not an American idea.

Fiat decompression such as has befallen the many currencies in SE Asia could not have been planned, to the degree that the resultant consequences and measures taken thereafter could have be known to a level of certainty through which one or a group might plan a course of action other than chaos upon which the planner might feed.

The IMF is clearly tatooed with the serf building psedo empirical beliefs that are the driving madness behind the British Banking system. The French have and always will be whores to the highest bidder, that leaves the Swiss, all are entangled in the mess of International Banking and the test tube of human bile known as the BIS. The WB as well fits nicely into this stew of dishonesty and is laden with body parts of the honest and caring.

I say the will of several thousand years in the east wins out over the west. In addition I say watch the biggest whore of all, the British Banking System and their other European maggot whore friends to make a deal and sell out the west, for they care not of anything but their wealth, selves and property.

What other country besides England has had a hand and foot in so many countries now in turmoil around the globe. None.

The British Bankers are still born cold fish whose kind should have been fileted a long time ago, and thrown in the fire, head, eyes, gills, and all else that might remain, so that the smoke might rise to the creator so the he might do what he will which the obvious abomination which is his and only his doing. When you step in it, it sticks to your sandal, even if you are God.

Of course, Sir, IMVHO

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:37 - ID#340459)
tolerant1, Didnt God warn us against the destructive machinations of the Devil. The Devil is
supposed to be given repreive from God's wrath till the Judgement Day

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:38 - ID#23398)
AGE -.05 8.30
WIM -.03 .44
PGU +..07 .60
TVX -.24 3.90

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:48 - ID#31868)
Dear Sir, I would most certainly entertain any dialogue wherein I might repudiate any false belief you may have as to the Constitution and the Emergency War Powers act.

I warn you Sir, I am a brave ant.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:49 - ID#31868)
Keyword - supposed.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:54 - ID#252150)
Tolerant@That is quite a vision God messing
up his Rockports. I hope his robe is high enough.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 16:59 - ID#153102)
Hedge Funds Benefit
As long as the price continues to go down those who sold futures or put options at a higher price will benefit when delivery day comes and they can buy the contract back at less than they sold it for.

Those who are parting with gold that they do not own, but have merely borrowed are making money AT ANY PRICE. And they are making derivative money pushing the market down by selling AT ANY PRICE. Since the paper market dwarfs the physical market, they are leveraging the borrowed phusical over and over until the loan must be repaid. Then, some will replace the gold with offtake from the mines and some of them will simply default on the loan. The longer and lower, the more paper profit.

This is why the gold market may go down into a tunnel of darkness and close and never come back out. For example, if all of the LBMA brokers, the whole Association of them, are broke and in default. But a lot of gold will still be delivered at a higher than market price in the meanwhile and afterwards there will only be internal country markets if there are any at all. Internal country prices of gold have been controlled in the past by legislation and can be again. It's called the official price. Or it could be based on internal country production price.

What will the world be like when there is NO INTERNATIONAL PRICE for gold is what to focus on. Will the present interest rate based method of valuing paper currencies relative to each other make sense then or will paper currencies be valued in ounces of gold per paper monetary unit outstanding ? Will countries agree to settle trade balances then in anything but gold or currency that can be redeemed somewhere for gold ?
Unless they are militarily occupied and have no choice ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:02 - ID#288295)
John Disney

John - I called one of my favorite mutual funds ( Roobertson-Stephens Contratrarian Fund ) today to see what gold stocks they are recommending, and Paul Stephens is holding about 3% of this fund in a SA company I never heard of -

Consolidated African Mines ( CAM.Johannesburg Exch ) He said it was trading ( early Feb ) at a 47% discount to its net asset value of 2.91 Rand.

Do you have any kind words for this company?

Thanks in advance!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:09 - ID#254269)
Rubin on Indonesia;

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:10 - ID#288295)
John Disney

Oops! R.S. Contrarian Fund.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:12 - ID#31868)
They are also large into Royal Group Technoligies and Indochina Goldfields.

RYG on NASDAQ and ING.TO or ING on Canada markets.


(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:17 - ID#269409)
@ Editorial opinion re USA Gold
I hate to slam Bart's newest advertiser....BUT, their quotes on "Saints" are too high, and their delivery times, too long. Steer clear or pay too much!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:18 - ID#31868)
mozel, kind Sir, a further thought from the ant
Governments only control things while paper/fiat money/exchange/value is fat.

Governments run nothing, they merely administrate what they are told.

I assure you the owners of the mines have their own guns, unlike the human spigots of oil.

Another has partially scrubbed the surface of much deeper things. My culture would make his look like new yogurt. Gold and oil,

Brains, hah!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:20 - ID#57232)
Gold derivatives - spiraling gold price down -- I doubt it!
Mozel: Your scenario sounds very much like the ANOTHER gold Tsunami scenario, where the apparent price of gold goes down out of control, and then eventually explodes upward when the gold trading ceases.

There are several problems with this:

First, as far as I know the gold paper derivatives only account for 25% of the total gold market, and do not significantly alter the price of gold -- My reference is the Canarc Gold Teleconference that Frank Veneroso hosted -- Dec 1998 I think. The text is archived on Kitco.

Secondly, I do not see how the gold loans ( 8000tonnes ) can be pyramided with derivatives -- I would think they could only be 'rolled over'

Thirdly, if the LBMA goes 'belly up', it closes down for a few days, and then starts trading again, or another bullion site -- such as Istanbul takes over. The LBMA has been in business for over 200 years, and I doubt this market, which a Rothschild presides over every day would be allowed to shut down. Reagardless, the LBMA is a clearing house -- so the price of gold is irrelevant. Of course, the brokers could still go belly up, and Frank Veneroso, said that several had been 'stiffed' by CB's that promised to deliver, but failed to do so.

I think the following scenario is more likely for a gold bear return: A hidden currency crisis. For example, what is that emergency world banking session all about?

As I have said before ( and others ) gold is being used by the 'powers that be' in a contrarian manner. If it goes down any further, it just shows how desperate someone must be to increase the gold derivative load over 8000 tonnes, or to sell gold outright.

I guess one thing we should consider is how low could gold go if all the CB gold was loaned in a final desperate act. I will leave that to the gold gurus to figure out.

I will consider gold testing $280/oz as a buying opportunity.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:20 - ID#268253)
dow/gold ratio
DONALD_A OR OTHERS: Does anyone have a chart for the dow/gold ratio?
I'd love to see it!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:21 - ID#288295)

I know that in the past, they have owned Indochina Gold Fields, but today I heard no mention of it. Royal Group, yes.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:21 - ID#269409)
@ James....which planet are we on?
James, re your comment...."Date: Tue Feb 17 1998 16:18
James ( LGB@What if they had a war & nobody came? ) ID#252150:
But the U.S. & their brave & staunch ally just bombed the sh!t of a 3rd world defenceless Country,"

Could you please elaborate as to which "defenseless" country we did this? I must have missed it in the news....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:32 - ID#318118)
@ John Disney
I really don't worry about my investments. Harmony, however is substantial and receiving current info on conditions in S.A. is not easy
without your help. All we hear in the news is the worst.----Thanks

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:37 - ID#153102)
What currency are LBMA trades required to be settled in ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:44 - ID#26793)
Mexico pays 70% of oil revenue to IMF as interest. Can this be true??

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:47 - ID#20137)
Date: Tue Feb 17 1998 16:59
mozel ( Hedge Funds Benefit ) ID#153102:

What will the world be like when there is NO INTERNATIONAL PRICE for gold is what to focus on. Will the present interest rate based method of valuing paper currencies relative to each other make sense then or will paper currencies be valued in ounces of gold per paper monetary unit outstanding ? Will countries agree to settle trade balances then in anything but gold or currency that can be redeemed somewhere for gold ?
Unless they are militarily occupied and have no choice ?

Mozel, you have started painting the picture that Another has sketched. Another feels that physical bullion is secure but all paper gold is at risk including gold stocks.

Your impressive analysis ( s ) give me hope that we may figure this complicated situation out. Your addition to this bb has filled the final gap needed for resolution. The impressive talent existing on this site can now move forward effectively.

Team Kitco CAN solve this. Work together and the answers will flow forth.

It is a tangled web of bullion, stock, options, deratitives, politics ( internal and international ) and of course POWER. It does seem to be a East vs West game. The sophication is over my head, BUT I can see and understand that this may be the single most important problem to face us in our lifetimes, well worth our efforts, frustrations, sleepless nights.

Bill El Zebub
(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:48 - ID#261352)
Does "use 'em or loose 'em" apply to Saddams' arsenal (sp)?
If pushed hard enough and feeling kookie enough, maybe use 'em ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:50 - ID#26793)
@Mozel; settlement us US$ since 1968. All details here

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:50 - ID#30116)
John Disney
John -- Regardless of what anyone says about S.A. or the mining stocks down there, the N.A. mining stocks can't even come close to the dividends paid by the S.A. mining issues... :- ) I know, it's a small thing, but when the gold pickings are so meager... Dividends can be some consolation.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:50 - ID#93232)
Thank you muchly for the Saints report...BTW, where did you see the USAgold ad? Re earlier post: I was remarking about your apparent happiness...not some monster's sickness....perhaps, too personal a remark. I apologize.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 17:53 - ID#210253)
Lucky for us you're only a rocket scientist

Below is the definition of "Semite"

n. : a member of any of a group of peoples ( as the Jews or Arabs ) of southwestern Asia.

To be anti-semitic is to be against both groups mentioned in this definition. BTW, Iran is not populated with semites.

This attack on Iraq is a mistake. How will the world be a safer place after we "punish" Saddam? It may well turn out that we drive a larger wedge between the west and the arab world. We are misdirecting our punishment against a timid and weak Iraqi people, who are so frightened of Saddam that they have not yet found a way to eliminate him.
Given enough time one of two circumstances would occur. 1. He crosses the line by invading one of his neighbors thus precipitating his final destruction, or 2. He dies.


(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:00 - ID#237299)
@Midas...who wins
"Midas__A ( It is said that there is a simple reason for most complex scenario's. Who
is really benefitting or ) ID#340459:winning by low gold prices ? it beats me......"

I hope you will forgive my opinion, as there are many wise minds on this
group that I am uncomfortable wading in- but this is how I see it.

It seems that "who" is winning is the *current* single reserve currency;
the US Dollar. I don't think the central bankers give much of a damn which
currency acts as the single currency of choice, as long as * only one* currency
does so. Specifically to enable the electronic transfers of wealth around
the globe in the necessities of international commerce using a trusted vehicle.

It so happens that conveniently, the US is positioned and capable to act as the riot cop
of the world ( rightly or wrongly ) in order to secure this ultimate aim. So using the dollar
also brings the advantage of an *enforcer* for the policies of the central banks.

There are three assaults against the dollar in progress: First ) , the threatened default of $100
trillion? in derivatives trades. Brought into sharp reality by the Korean court and Indonesian
actions. These and many more debts may never be collected in foreign courts. We're seeing
The frantic efforts of the IMF and BIS in this arena. Second ) , the Arab.. oil producers ( and
probably non-OPEC countries as well ) are beginning to realize that given this crisis they
may have to come up with an alternative pricing. Perhaps their own artificial currency
like the Euro? I think that *this* is why the American riot police are positioning them
selves to march in to Iraq. Third ) , the horrendous threat presented to the dollar by the paper overhang in gold futures. What would happen if some crisis, call it event A, were to rattle international confidence so severely that dollars fled into gold? ( And out of the equities mkt )

I did the same calculations suggested by ANOTHER on the back of an envelope last
night and it looks to me that the figure is probably closer to 15,000 tonnes of paper overhang,
and compared to warehouse inventories it means that for every ounce of gold on hand
there are about 400 immediate claims against it. Given a year ( if the mines remained open ) roughly 1 in 4 could collect. Obviously none of these contracts come due in any given day- but the problem ( for the dollar ) is enormous.

It seems the central banks have almost unlimited resources to go into the metals markets
( through proxies ) and sell the market down with whatever volume is
required. And through the use of incessant propaganda against gold, CB sales rumors,
and artificial support of the stock market- keep gold in check. I don't think they give a holy damn if they actually close and bankrupt every mine in the world and ultimately close the metals markets; this cost is less expensive than allowing a dollar flee back into gold.

In short, it seems all stops are out. Due to the threefold threat against the dollar- if it takes a nuclear conflagration to protect the single reserve currency, they say- so be it.

I arrived at my opinion from reading some of the brilliant posts on this news group
in the last few weeks. Thank you all. I hope it was not too inaccurate.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:01 - ID#153102)
Do you see a new gold/oil yogurt making GREEN MACHINE making busy anywhere in the world as we speak ?

The commercial empire game is up except in this hemisphere. The only question is will there be a military game in overtime ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:03 - ID#26793)
Sunshine Mining news

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:05 - ID#57232)
Currency trades on LBMA
Mozel: I am no expert on the LBMA -- that mysterious organization that seems to be able to operate as an independent, secret entity right under the nose of the Bank of England. I know that one of the fancy derivatives trades involves gold and dollars -- benefitting from cheap gold loans and fairly high returns on US dollar purchases ( treasuries ) . One of these trading schemes works best when the price of gold is dropping ( cheap loan rates ) , which it would be if someone influential ( such as a CB ) flooded the markets with gold loans. If the gold loans were used to buy dollar investment articles, and the dollar had a good 'real' rate of return, this scenario would be reinforcing, leading to falling gold prices, and a rising value of the US dollar. Now - if the dollar ( the worlds's currency ) were threatened, the world's CB's might react by loaning more gold to 'prop up' the dollar. This scenario might also apply to a CB about to melt down, even if there was no dollar crisis, as gold could be sold or loaned anonymously by one CB to allow the CB at risk to increase their US dollar reserves. As long as they use gold loans, none of the transactions would have to show up on their balance sheets.

I would guess that the LBMA could offer the 'high-roller' type Big Trader just about any trade a derivatives expert could concoct, with just about any currency he could desire. I am very rusty on this --was discussed before -- I think any currency with an unusually high 'real' return would work well with the gold 'bear' scenario.

All: Does anyone know if gold bullion trading volume on the LBMA has increased again? Is it now above 2000tonnes/day? That might give us a clue of how bad things are getting.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:06 - ID#254269)
Interesting argument; Obsidian 18.00

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:07 - ID#26793)
A nice analysis.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:11 - ID#26793)
London fix took 18 minutes today, usually takes 5. Anyone offer a reason?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:13 - ID#93232)
Very good work. Essential to hold one's gold, eh? When those goldless-399 fellows come around for my gold...we will be gone.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:16 - ID#153102)
The part you have left out of your calculation is this: it does make a difference which country's currency is reserve. As I pointed in concerning Argentina, now that the peso is interchangeable with the greenback locally, the corporations of any country other than the U.S. are at a serious operating and trading disadvantage because of derivatives cost overhead, currency risk, currency exchange overhead, and the threat of currency attack.

Developments have gone to the point where the greenback has become the engine of commercial colonialism. It is their nation's impending colonization that will separate Central Bankers from their love affair with the greenback or get them killed or fired. I think just like gold coin means independence for an individual in America, gold means independence for sovereign nations. We are just slow seeing it.

I can't figure out why Australian gold delivery was allowed to go through to China. Unless Australia was simply determined to do it.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:22 - ID#26793)
Korean Govt. begins supervision of derivatives in wake of Morgan problem

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:23 - ID#252150)
LGB@I'm sure that you realize I'm refering to the coming attack, if it occurs.
( LGB@What if they had a war & nobody came? ) ID#252150:

But the U.S. & their brave & staunch ally just bombed the sh!t of a 3rd world defenceless

Country, further pauperizing millions of innocent civilians. A proud moment in U.S. doubt. Right up there with the bombing of Laos & Cambodia.

I hope that you are not going to argue that Iraq is capaple of defending itself. Even if they do have WMD, the U.S. has acknowledged that they have no delivery systems. The U.S. militarly will fire cruise missiles from hundreds of miles away & drop their bombs from 30,000 ft-

safely above the Iraqi's anti- aircraft defenses, the same as they did the first time. It may not be an honourable way to wage war, but it's definitely effective. You know what Noam Chomsky said about the gulf war.

If you don't maybe you should read him. OTOH it would probably complicate your comfortable lifestyle & rationalizations, since you would'nt be able to call him an anti-semite.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:25 - ID#57232)
Seeing reality -- dimly
Obsidian: I like your 'call sign'. That's the way most of us are about what is happening -- we are looking through a darkened window. I think you have concluded the same thing that I concluded: If gold is going down from here ( well below the F. Veneroso equilibirium price of $600/oz ) -- it means that there is a serious hidden financial crisis.

I am beginning to realize that it is human nature to cling without reason to a certain belief system -- such faith in as our paper currencies -- well beyond what logic would tell us we should. In desperation, we cling to what 'is' -- throwing anything we should have saved on the fire in a vain attempt to put it out. And -- the system will eventually be restructured to what was being resisted anyway.

Hence, we may not have seen the end of gold loans by CB's, despite the fact that logic would tell us that these should stop now. The destruction of a 'belief system' is a nonlinear process -- and part of human nature. Hence the reason why we humans are tied to these infernal cycles between 'paper' and 'real' assets, as well as numerous other cycles.

I hope my above scenario does not pan out -- perhaps gold will only test $280/oz.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:25 - ID#403335)
Futures Broker?
Can anyone suggest a few discount futures brokers from whom they've had quality service?


(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:25 - ID#93232)
SPECIAL HIGH-FIVE SALUTE TO MIKE KOSARES, USAgold!!!! Thanks for financially supporting our site. We appreciate you, kind sir.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:27 - ID#26793)
Korean Govt. closes 10 banks

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:27 - ID#31868)
I have been on the phone with a friend removed, that I have not had the pleasure of speaking with for some time. A long time, too long. I look upon your posts as that which makes me smile and that which I can learn from. I have been staring at the screen but. but did not see.

Natalie Merchant led a chorus. "These are the days.!?"

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:40 - ID#57232)
Indicators of World-wide Financial Uncertainty
All: It is time again to review what we should follow if a real world-wide financial crisis threatens to strike.

SDRer, Donald: Do you have any new estimates regarding world-wide insolvency?

Possible Indicators of Instability:

i ) Stability of US dollar -- sudden ups or downs -- 5% or more in two or three days.

ii ) Sudden changes in dollar interest rates.

iii ) A continued rise in the gold bullion volume traded on the LBMA. This information is recorded monthly, but is hard to obtain.

iv ) Sudden changes in the dollar volume of OTC market trades around the world ( I defer details to others more expert that myself ) .

v ) Sudden up or down changes in the price of gold.

vi ) Sudden drops in selected equity markets -- US probably last to be affected.

I think the next few weeks to months will be interesting, as the world's financeers begin to realize that the SEAsian currency crisis is not yet over. I wonder - when will we see a spread of the financial 'flu' to Russia, China, and South America?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:42 - ID#237299)
Thank you all for your feedback, I am still learning

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:47 - ID#288295)
EWT Interim bulletin Feb 12
Extract from Interim Bulletin:

'The current market situation is compatible with a near-term peak inside the contracting triangle illustrated in the January and February issues. Near-term price relationships allow for another 3% up to cap the rise, but the long-term Fibonacci price relationships in the 8200s-8300s that EWT pointed out six months ago have been achieved. The highest targets at Supercycle, Cycle, and Primary degree were 8336, 8321 and 8327, respectively. Today's close of 8369.60 is just 0.6% away from the ideal target of 8319. The August high was about the same distance below it.

Technical indicators are consistent with a top very near by. Take a look at this series of peak daily advance/decline ratios for the NYSE over the past year: 4.17 ( 5/2 ) , 3.65 ( 11/3 ) , 2.79 ( 12/30 ) , 2.55 ( 1/13 ) , 2.54 ( 1/16 ) , 2.12 ( 2/2 ) , 1.85 ( 2/10 ) . The latter ratio is particularly weak given that it ocurreed on a 115-point up day that scored a 'breakout' to a new all-time high. Today, with the Dow up 55 points, there were as many stocks down as up. Near-term rates of change continue to diverge as well. These two indicators reflect a persistent slowing in upside momentum. In the sentiment area, put/call ratios have been running low for several weeks.'

(Tue Feb 17 1998 18:55 - ID#288295)
JTF re: instability

You might also add:

TED spread

Lease rates on gold

COMEX reported gold stocks

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:01 - ID#288295)

Who wins with a low gold price?

Those who choose to accumulate it without regard to its worth in terms of dollars.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:03 - ID#93232)
@Two Flu Over the Cuckoo Nest?
Would it not be safe now to predict the total collapse of the Mexican peso? And Venezuela?..I know my oil company's currency is under extreme pressure right now!....eb, eh? CherOkee....ubright on this. How do we play?

Bill El Zebub
(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:04 - ID#261352)
It's Okra Winfrey over the Cattle Men.....Now bring on Hammas and Saddam!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:06 - ID#57232)
Thanks -- TED spread seems to be very sensitive!
SilverBaron: Good ones.

TED Spread - I still do not fully understand the TED spread -- I think it stems from the fact that Eurodollar investment articles are not backed up by the US government, but US treasuries are. So -- during a crisis -- money suddenly flows from Eurodollars into regular US dollar investments. Am I right? Is there any way for the small investor to get into TED spreads with cheap, long term 'out of the money' type trades? Ie -- 'throwaway' money?

Gold lease rates -- I have no idea how to read these. Do you know?

Comex -- Any news on Comex gold and silver stocks? Somebody really pulled the plug on the price of silver today -- a concerted attempt to shake out the weak bulls so that some more long trades could be set up?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:08 - ID#26793)
I still hold the position that the U.S., corporate, individual, and all forms of government has had a negative net worth since 1995. From a world point of view I can not imagine how to obtain valid numbers. Only the most advanced countries collect the data required to make an analysis.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:11 - ID#288295)

Unless, I'm mistaken, you'll need a commodity broker to trade the TED spread. The contracts trade in terms of US$ 1MM, but since you are long USD and short Euro D, the amount of money isn't that large for the trade. It would be interesting to see a chart of the TED if anyone has one handy.

Gold lease rates are published daily here at Kitco. I think anything running over 4% and accelerating would be a strong signal on a historical basis.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:12 - ID#429245)
John Disney__A ----Your 15:36

Youve got me wondering if there is something serious I have been missing all these years.

Wasn't the whole ( original ) idea of the futures market so that producers and manufacturers could hedge their requirements?

You say gold was never near $421? Over the past couple of years there were plenty of opportunities to buy or sell gold for future delivery at that price.

TVX hedged $70 million worth at even higher prices than 421, and just recently they decided to take their paper profits instead of actually delivering the gold.

Carl--- Yes, they can delay delivery by rolling over the futures contracts at little difference in price.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:20 - ID#57232)
What about US related derivatives only?
Donald: If we focus just on the US where the numbers are most accurate, what do we see in terms of derivatives trading, or debt?

Last I looked at 'FRED', the St Louis CB site, private and corporate debt was at $15 trillion US, and the most debt reduction was being reduced with the good times we have had was about $250 billion/year. I know we have about $5trillion in 'official' debt, increased by about $200 billion in the last 6 months or so, despite our nearly zero deficit. As far as I can tell, most of that 200 trillion must have gone to bail our SEAsia. There is another 10 trillion or so in unfunded entitlements.

The US debt stuff would take at least one-two years to be a problem if interest rates shot up -- so that is not an immediate problem, and an easy way to sweep debt under the rug for our children to worry about.

I would guess that, in the US, besides derivatives losses, another indicator worth watching is credit card debt -- which was nearly maxed out last I checked.

It really does look like our markets are running on vapor, doesn't it?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:21 - ID#30116)
JTF -- Futures account to trade TED spread...

Nearby Euro-dollar contract and T-Bill contract. ( EDH8 and TBH8 )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:22 - ID#7568)

Let's assume for just a small moment that the US is no worse off than any other country in the world. How can it be that the US has more liabilities than it has assets? Every paper liability is someone elses paper asset, so the sum of these is necessarily 0. Last I looked I was living in a house and typing away at a computer. Since these are assets I must conclude that the US of A has at least a little something positive in the balance sheet.

If the idea that the US is in a unique position of having a negative net worth, which is the country or region that is holder of the wealth?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:25 - ID#344308)

kinda looks like the golden one took a was
red-alerted last week....... right here......
what the hell happened to the grains? awwwwwwww....

don't you just hate it? i do too!!!!!!!!!!!; )


Barb Hughes
(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:27 - ID#20783)


Two points.

Would suggest yearly subscription rate as follows:
To ease bookkeeping problems $119.95 CAN$, $99.95 US$ and AUSSI$ same as CAN$.
Monthly could become accounting nightmare that could cost more than you are receiving.

When NEW BANNER AD appears Explorer IE4.0 ( Iexplore ) throws WIN95 into Error condition and ejects me from the net! Dont know if it just me or other folks too!

Trying to get rid of us? Ha! Ha!

Take careBarb

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:32 - ID#288295)

The US debt figures you quoted also don't include contingent ( implied ) libilities which could ( would? ) come crashing down if there were a major crisis: Bank account guarantees, home loan guarantees, all the pseudo-governement agency liabilities, those kinds of things. The numbers I have seen quoted vary around $15-20 trillion, on top of the unfunded entitlements.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:33 - ID#57232)
Just how much net worth do Americans have?
D.A.: That question confuses me too. Last I heard we were net debtors, and the Japanese supposedly had control of most of our debt. But -- the Japanese seem to be in much worse shape than we have been told.

Just how much debt are we really in? Just where are all the creditors?

I would bet that most of us on this site are well into positive net worth, and most US corporations, if you believe their balance sheets, are usually in positive territory. And we are supposed to have an average savings rate of about 3-4%.

I was looking at the most recent Economist book on the state of the world's economies, and the US comes out much better than France and Germany when it comes to debt. Surely there must be many other countries in the world with more net assets per person than the US -- other than Switzerland.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:36 - ID#30116)
War??? Or Video Game show???
What is the deal with this Iraqi thing? Is it me, or does anyone else notice how this 'party' is being sold? It's being sold on a technology basis. In other words, machines can do all of the dirty work for us. No AMERICANS need to be injured or killed. Isn't this all just so, 'clean' and 'neat'.

Meanwhile, here at home, we all sit and watch ( on TV ) in fascination as to the 'effectiveness' of these weapons systems.

What was Einstein's warning? Something about bouncing rubble...

Now, as to the complacency of the markets! Gold refuses to move, probably because it 'knows' that this is a 'joke'. Unfortunately, it isn't and people will die. Meanwhile, the dollar remains the quintessential 'safe haven'. God help us if something 'unforeseen' happens.

Why am I reminded of LBJ and Vietnam? "Bomb the hell out of them, and don't send in any troops." That didn't work either. Perhaps this solution could work for Bosnia also, let everyone who wants to go at it, do so. The last person left standing wins..........

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:38 - ID#17155)
US Loses Another Ground Base
MANAMA, Bahrain ( AP ) -- Bahrain joined two other Arab states Tuesday in saying it would not allow bombing raids against Iraq from its territory -- reflecting a widespread feeling among Arab leaders that air strikes may do little more than kill civilians.

Without use of the sprawling air base in Bahrain, which hosts the headquarters of the U.S. 5th fleet, the United States will have to rely more heavily on its two aircraft carriers in the Gulf. ====

Well, Kuwait is the only piece of land left that US can use as it's land base. Shall Iraq have a will to do so, Kuwait could be overrun in matter of hours. It shall be interesting. I do not recall any real war won successfully from navy ships. Besides, the carriers are a WWII relic and are useless in a real war with tactical nukes or other non-conventional weapons.

Meantime, oil and gold markets already trade on assumption that US will win instantly and without any cost or surprises.

Join the "KILL ARAB" movement!!! Click here, to find out MORE


(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:41 - ID#200168)
Has ARden or Realistic posted comex stocks ? If so you someone be so kind as to repost them.

ARden/Realsitic please post comex with deliverable stocks noted. Thanks in advance.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:47 - ID#57232)
US corporate, private debt about $15 trillion
SilverBaron: Your 19:32. I think I included that in the US, corporate, private debt of $15 trillion, with another $15trillion in federal official and unfunded liabilities. I get about $30-35 trillion total -- does that match your estimate?

I wonder -- perhaps the reason we have trouble with all of this debt, is that most of the world's countries are in debt up to their eyeballs. I think one of the problems with our 'credit' approach to pulling the world's varied economies out of recession, is that debt keeps accumulating during each economic cycle. Yes -- we have softened all the recessions, and avoided deflationary action in commodities, but at a terrible price. Eventually the entire system of debt will come crashing down. Sort of like what we learned about preventing forest fires in Yellowstone park -- unfortunately all of that expensive prevention lead to a conflagration from all of that accumulated brush.

But -- it still makes sense to compare one country with another to see who is at greatest risk. And -- it would be nice to see how the US really stands.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 19:56 - ID#288295)

I don't remember the outside debt total - only that it had too many zeros. $30 trillion? That is 30,000,000,000,000 dollars?

Let's see - that divided by 261 million ounces of gold equals.........Hmmmmmmmmmmm

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:10 - ID#31868)
Another, I have zero respect for you.

You Sir, mean nothing, plain and simple.

Others may hold you in regard, I do not.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:11 - ID#398105)
Market control, not manipulation.............

After you read this, you must remember that ROTHSCHILD set the gold price daily. They have been very active, and wise, traders for a very long time. The current gold price is of their making, and there will no doubt be a longer term strategy concerning the gold price. Gold is not dead, it's just having a "wee" nap !

The key pharse is -

"Nathan had bought control of the British economy. Overnight, his already vast fortune was multiplied twenty times over."

When gold turns - who will they not own ?!


"There were vast fortunes to be made - and lost - on the outcome of the
Battle of Waterloo. The Stock Exchange in London was at fever pitch as
traders awaited news of the outcome of this battle of the giants. If
Britain lost, English consuls would plummet to unprecedented depths. If
Britain was victorioug, the value of the consul would leap to dizzying
new heights.

As the two huge armies closed in for their battle to the death, Nathan
Rothschild had his agents working feverishly on both sides of the line
to gather the most accurate possible information as the battle
proceeded. Additional Rothschild agents were on hand to carry the
intelligence bulletins to a Rothschild command post strategically
located nearby.

Late on the afternoon of June 15, 1815, a Rothschild representative
jumped on board a specially chartered boat and headed out into the
channel in a hurried dash for the English coast. In his possession was a
top secret report from Rothschild's secret service agents on the
progress of the crucial battle. This intelligence data would prove
indispensable to Nathan in making some vital decisions.

The special agent was met at Folkstone the following morning at dawn by
Nathan Rothschild himself. After quickly scanning the highlights of the
report Rothschild was on his way again, speeding towards London and the
Stock Exchange.

Arriving at the Exchange amid frantic speculation on the outcome of the
battle, Nathan took up his usual position beside the famous 'Rothschild
Pillar.' Without a sign of emotion, without the slightest change of
facial expression the stony-faced, flint eyed chief of the House of
Rothschild gave a predetermined signal to his agents who were stationed
change of

Rothschild agents immediately began to dump consuls on the market. As
hundred of thousands of dollars worth of consuls poured onto the market
their value started to slide. Then they began to plummet.

Nathan continued to lean against 'his' pillar, emotionless,
expressionless. He continued to sell, and sell and sell. Consuls kept on
falling. Word began to sweep through the Stock Exchange: "Rothschild
knows." "Rothschild knows." "Wellington has lost at Waterloo."

The selling turned into a panic as people rushed to unload their
'worthless' consuls or paper money for gold and silver in the hope of
retaining at least part of their wealth. Consuls continued their
nosedive towards oblivion. After several hours of feverish trading the
consul lay in ruins. It was selling for about five cents on the dollar.

Nathan Rothschild, emotionless as ever, still leaned against his pillar.
He continued to give subtle signals. But these signals were different.
They were so bubtly different that only the highly trained Rothschild
agents could detect the change. On the cue from their boss, dozens of
Rothschild agents made their way to the order desks around the Exchange
and bought every consul in sight for just a 'song'!

A short time later the 'official' news arrived in the British capital.
England was now the master of the European scene.

Within seconds the consul skyrocketed to above its original value. As
the significance of the British victory began to sink into the public
consciousness, the value of consuls rose even higher.

Napoleon had 'met his Waterloo.' Nathan had bought control of the
British economy. Overnight, his already vast fortune was multiplied
twenty times over."

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:14 - ID#344308)

care-ful lest you anger speed.......he knows some sh!t...
in the mean-time......go here......

for missle data.......>

for us carrier data....

for chinese systems....

and to the ssm, for the ride-of-your-life.....who-loves-dem-beans???

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:15 - ID#429245)
Comex stocks

COMEX warehouse silver stocks fell a further 71,575 ounces to a new historic low at 92,745,906 ounces in Friday night's data.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:18 - ID#344308)

could'nt agree more! another is another big trader and bre-x....
said so on all 3.........
another--bring some pizza home from work..........

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:20 - ID#57232)
Logging off! Chores.
Lets see: $30 trillion divided by 215 million people --

If I were born tomorrow in the US, the amount of this debt I would owe -- just by being born -- would be about $140,000. And -- I would not have a job with enough income to seriously start paying it off until I was in my twenties.

Just wait until 2010-2015 when Social Security comes home to roost.

So -- how much is that gold really worth in Fort Knox?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:21 - ID#398105)
Nothing but sand....................

Petronius ( US Loses Another Ground Base )

The Bhoys are a long way from home, and may have no where to go ?

Smart Bombs, a function of a news broadcast. Perception.

I have just watched Slick Clito on the news - he looks so sincere and serious.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:23 - ID#34883)

Is a citizen a part of the Rothschild jewish conspiricy if they vote for

socialist legislation only achieved and sustained through government currency credit expansion and deficit spending?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:23 - ID#210253)
Where's a guy like Churchill when we need him?

It feels as if something else is at work here besides UN inspection violations. According to the president, Iraq has been out of compliance since 1991. And his neighbors have not registered any serious complaints.

If deplomacy fails, I can't see Clinton backing down before the whole world. So if this is the case, the air attack will be round one of an open ended fight.

Clinton clearly wants to leave his mark on history and he doesn't want it to look like Neville Chamberlain's. For the sake of the nation, I hope he knows what he's doing.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:25 - ID#7568)

The question, whose answer is obvious, was meant to show the preposterousness of the assertion. There seems to be a massive misunderstanding of financial instruments, be they outright debt instruments, currencies, derivatives or anything else which is a claim based upon a contract, written or understood.

There is also a widespread belief at this site, that a financial catastrophe is going to wipe out all the accumulated wealth of the world and somehow plunge us into the dark ages, where marksmanship and a stockpile of brilliant uncirculated gold coins is going to be arbiter of success.

The economic risks of financial meltdown are a risk of dislocation, and a risk of trust.

The risk of dislocation is that because of unwise investments, large segments of the population forfeit their wealth to small segments of the population. In the extreme, this leads to political instability as we have recently witnessed in Albania. In the not so extreme, it is still detrimental to the gross wealth creation ability of the society if large segments of the population are unable to participate because they are disenfranchised.

The risk of trust occurs if there are debt defaults and the ensuing world is not a place where credit transactions are as likely to occur. This would seriously impair the future's economy from reaching potential.

Despite the continued railing against the four letter word debt, it is an extremely useful economic concept which adds enormous economic value to a society. While the implementation of credit has become complicated in the context of our fractional reserve banking system, the root utility of debt has remained.

For a rather prosaic example of the utility of debt consider the following. A farmer spends the winter at his forge and makes a great new plow. Come the spring, the new plow cuts down his plowing time such that he finishes his plowing way early. Since his plow is now idle and an underutilized asset, he loans it out to his next door neighbor who agrees to give him a few bushels of corn from the next harvest for use of the fine plow. In the case where the crop comes in, everyone is better off. The farmer who made the fine plow gets a little extra corn, and the farmer who borrowed it cut his plowing time in half at a cost of only a few bushels of corn. With this extra time on his hands he probably goes on to create the Internet. Note that even if the new crop does not come in and the creditor farmer defaults, the asset, the plow, does not vaporize into the ether. Physical assets, and intellectual assets are not going to disappear because of debt defaults. Their ownership might get shuffled around in disconcerting ways, but the assets are still there.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:28 - ID#374211)
@ Heard on the Street.....Iraq...US$...Oil....Gold ...."paper game"......
All the financial Gurus are singing the praises of this Market Bull,
crediting the rise in a number of stocks especially drugs to the
take-over mania....some talk this evening about US debt, what about
the trillions in paper debt created since the start of the Bull by said Co's. An analyst called it 'casino" gambling, bidding up the Markets......
Suharto's man is playing hard ball with IMF ( US ) so much
so that Rubin has grown a GIANT "ZIT" right on his forehead,
talk about a Giant headache no solution in sight for Indonesia,
but I heard that South Korea's debt has been upgraded, well, "they"
did deliver the "peoples" GOLD....BJ Clinton has been "selling"
Iraq Bombing , he's been all over the media, even peaking at the Pentagon, and a special 1 Hour Show tomorrow with Albright,
and Cohen to prepare the American people for the Bombing....
A top Israeli intelligence analyst has stated that Saddam does NOT
have the long range warehead capability to deliver any Bio-Chem
Bombs to his neighbors.....
Russia and China still saying "NO" to Iraq Bombing, now even Bahrain
is saying "NO" They all remember what Saddam did when he knew
he'd lost the war more killings and "torching" all of Kuwait's Oil wells,
what will he do this time to them?...Oil is down ANOTHER $0.36 today,
that's 25% so far this month, Oil and Markets are definetly saying
about Iraq,"been there, done that", absolutely no room for any
"mistakes" on the part of the US, which of course we all know
are going to happen in a BIG way. US will loose aricraft,men and more....
Heard some military types
talk about "defining mission" "seriously reducing his Bio-Chem capabilities" ( keep in mind the Israeli report above ) but the most
telling quote I heard for Iraqi Bombing was " This is a giant signal
going out to any "rogue" nation around the world. I think this is
what I have been saying all along, this military action has very little
to do with SH or his alleged weapons of mass destruction.....
BTW UK parliament voted today 495 to 23 to approve use of force
vs Iraq.....getting closer....Gold acted rather well considering the strength of the US$ and the market action in general.....stay tuned.......

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:28 - ID#20137)
Date: Tue Feb 17 1998 20:15
GW ( Comex stocks ) ID#429245:

Thanks for the try but that's Friday's data.

Anyone have today's data for silver and gold with noted amounts available for delivery. Thanks.

Bill El Zebub
(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:29 - ID#261352)
How does B. Clinton keep his ankles warm ..With his underwear.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:30 - ID#330175)
Three Cheers for Tolerant1(20:10)-----------April Gold down 1.0 @298.50
Tolerant1: He's full of!...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:39 - ID#330175)
Hey,(hello)---anyone home?----Don't mind moi but tonight(12:37 EST) is the --
HOCKEY ( goin fer the ) game between the USA-Czech Republic and the loser gets to go home....Can those over-paid bums ( usa ) get the damn puck past the 'dominator'???

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:42 - ID#28585)
It's time to double down...

The next left field event will rattle the Dow and send gold and silver soaring.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:43 - ID#376309)
Re: GW - That is only a multi-year low not a historic low. During the 70's and early 80's it was much lower.

Read my post on Feb 16 1998 08:45 ! Golds going DOWN! Believe it!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:44 - ID#41229)
All Debt of U.S.
One of the many things I learned last night while looking into to the monetary issue, thanks to the posting of D.A.'s on the M1-M2 sector.

I learned how money is created in banks, the banks can leverage a 9:1 ratio, this is for every dollar a bank has deposited in its system it can laon out $9.

Since the writing of the program I checked out, which I posted last night, the federal regulations have been reduced from that. That means they can leverage even more.

If you stand back and look at the whole financial picture of the last 20yrs, it has not been a zero sum game. The production of real tangible products, whatever they maybe, does not equal the amount of currency produced. Where did all this wealth come from if it did not come from the product of labor or material item produced?

It came out of thin air, leveraging. James may speak of GDP and debt ratio, from what I read the GDP is also minipulated according to the money induced into the M1 sector. This means the money that comes out of thin air makes our GDP improve. The only thing is was the economy slows inflows decrease, all this leveraged money will be pulled, the bubble will burst. In reality it would take very little of liquid cash pulled from the financial sector ( % wise ) to cause a liquidity crises. Also most of the liquid money is in the market place whether in bonds or stocks, which the bankers have listed on their balance sheets of today's prices. What happens if there is a run, value will be greatly reduced!

Mozel- on your posts of today, just to let you now I agree with you and had pots to your effect a month or two ago. I think we're seeing a major power play, who would benifit the most, China or Europe. China typically would stand back and watch and wait ( let someone else take the risks. ) Thats why I thought it is Europe.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:45 - ID#7568)

Of course, keep watching here for more info. Be careful though, word has it that there are highly placed agents who monitor the site and spread disinformation. You can never tell who they are or what side they represent, of course.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:48 - ID#304282)
The y2k problem could be the thing that causes this money to be pulled. I know I plan on having all my assets in hand before 99.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:51 - ID#28585)
Funds for militarys purposes...funds for IMF salvation efforts on behalf of Asia....funds for domestic needs...

All the borrowers competing against each other...the interest rates will rise, the Dow will falter, and unfavored investments will gain favor overnight.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:52 - ID#26793)
These figures are from 1995 for U.S.

Total registered debt is $17.1 trillion. I have the breakdown by Fed, state, mortgages, local, county etc.

Total unregistered debt $3 trillion. intra family, illegal etc.

Total debt is $20 trillion

Total assets are $19 trillion, real estate, equities, etc.

Net assets $1 trillion in the hole. It is more data than I have the time to type tonight but it is pretty convincing.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:55 - ID#288295)

Not my area of expertise, but I believe the multiplier now is something like 16:1 for reserves.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 20:56 - ID#42365)
Scenario: People think that there may be a possible problem, in turn these people draw back and sell off all there stocks and bonds and turn paper into real assets, actually turning their fears into reality. maybe its already started?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:01 - ID#187218)
what's up with ANOTHER,,,,, what happened ?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:02 - ID#288295)

I agree with your assessment about the outcomes of a financial meltdown, except I would also think that civil uprisings, government overthrows, general war are possible outcomes as well. Post-1929 was an especially unpleasant time in many parts of the world, and the system is far more leveraged now than then.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:05 - ID#374211)
@ Donald.....
That mean then, that since "equities" are assets, when the Dow
goes to 5000, then the US will be about 7 trillion $ in the hole?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:06 - ID#42365)
another? maybes hes on holiday? or maybe they got to him.
maybe hes knows tooo much. hahahaha

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:11 - ID#304282)
Exactly. The technical problems with y2k don't even have to be that bad. It is the fear that they will be bad that will cause a crisis. Then when the y2k problem turns out to be as bad or worse than predicted it will furthur the chaos. We both know that if a small percentage of people withdrew their money from their banks, brokerages, and other financial institutions, we would be in trouble. This would only snowball as more people hear about it.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:15 - ID#374211)
@ US M2 and GDP

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:16 - ID#7568)

You have left off the 20 trillion dollars of debt on the asset side. All this paper is owned by someone, and it is an asset. Non bank credit is a zero sum game. The offset of bank credit is money.

Consider the following. Lets say I had $1000 dollars and loaned it too my wife. She then loaned it to a friend, and so on and so on. At the end of the chain I borrowed a $1000 dollars. If there were a million people involved in the transaction, your figures would show an increase in debt of 1 billion dollars, and yet there would be zero financial consequence of such a series of transactions. Summing total outstanding debt and looking at it in relationship to GDP gives some measure of leverage in the society but is not an absolute measure of wealth or lack there of.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:17 - ID#255151)

The so called Big Bang takes place on April 1 when Japan deregulates their markets. My understanding is that any one in Japan will be able to deposit their money in any bank and currency in the world. Yen deposits earn, what, 1% or less? Will there be a massive exit of Yen into higher yielding assets like Dollars, D-Marks, and Pounds? Seems pretty big to me, with all kinds of implications, but I've not seen much discussion in the financial media. Anyone have any ideas?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:19 - ID#374211)
@ Japan M2 increase not related to real growth...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:21 - ID#374211)
@ Japan will act in case of excess YEN fall....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:23 - ID#7568)

There is no doubt that a complete meltdown could have drastic political repercussions. I believe however that at least in the industrialized world we are at a point where physical material needs can be met almost regardless of the extent of the financial collapse. Because we can with so little difficulty produce enough stuff so that people can eat and be sheltered, the possibility of total chaos seems much smaller than it was 70 years ago. I hope my optimism in this regard is not put to the test.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:24 - ID#17155)
Dollar up as Investors Hear Countdown on Iraq

Don't you somtimes think that all of the so called "Investors" are genetically engineered Forrest Gump substitutes, specially designed to vote for Clinton ( s ) and cherish rewards in paper money for their "services."

How will war in Iraq make dollar stronger?! Huh?

The previous war adventure was fully paid for by other countries ( Japan especially ) . Japan now has neither will nor ability to pay for it. Clinton ( in his clintonesque style ) has ignored the issue of financing completely. Pentagon is being forced to cough up the money from the existing "budgets." How are they expected to do that? Rob a friendly country or two? Peddle more dope or missles? Start printing "notes" on their own?!

We live in the age where the perception of things no matter how looney ) is stronger than reality itself. It will hurt reaaaaaaaly bad when the paper dream dies!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:26 - ID#374211)
@ US Fund Mgrs await Russia's Plan for fiscal, tax Reform + Camdessus & IMF Funds...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:28 - ID#342376)
Haggis__A 20:11 THE best post I've read on price of gold

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:29 - ID#340459)
@Obsidian at 18:00, Thank you very much for your wise analysis..
excellent logic..

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:44 - ID#368244)
@ DA
Very Astute!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:48 - ID#286199)
COMEX Warehouse Stocks
So BART or VRONSKY, how about a small tweak to one or both of your respective sites which includes the end of day Silver and Gold warehouse stocks? Kaplan is always bullish, but will he always be there? NO! We need a second/third source.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:51 - ID#237299)
Thank you sir. I must credit the truly wise minds on this
group who have taught me much as I read and think. The collection
of information posted here, taken in sum, and filtered out for noise
can result in astonishing clarity. The Kito forum is much greater
than the sum of its parts.

Steve in TO__A
(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:56 - ID#209265)
JTF- what gold & silver lease rates are
To answer your previous question about what gold & silver lease rates are: they are the rates at which central banks lend silver. A lot of the metal 'owned' by central banks is not actually in their vaults, but has been lent out to others.

The borrower takes the metal and tries to do something productive with it , paying the lender a 'lease rate' that you see quoted on Kitco's price page. Which is a percentage rate of the value of metal 'principal' outstanding.

Eventually, the borrower is supposed to return the metal to the lender. For this reason the central banks keep the amounts out on lease on their books as reserves. So if you were to go into the Bundesbank's vaults to count their bars, you would not actually find all the ounces of gold they claim to hold in their reserves.

This idea seems great to the central bank- they're trained to think like bankers, after all- you take an asset and figure out how to generate residual income from it, and they don't have to go to their government for permission, since the metal stays on their books!

Of course, what happens if a borrower defaults is- the amount owed by the borrower has evaporated from the lender's reserves.

In stable supply positions lease rates have traditionally been less than 2%- and it's only reasonable to borrow metal at those rates. When a supply squeeze develops the rates start to go up, and once they cross 2% that's a sign to look out for. They go over 2% sometimes and then fall back, but if they go up to absurd values and don't come back down that means a supply squeeze is on.

Silver lease rates started going up while Buffett was making his purchases last year and were at 8% before any news came out. At current rates of 11% ( 1yr ) to 25% ( 1mo ) silver cannot be borrowed profitably unless you know how to make an awful lot of money doing something with silver. They hit 35% in the mania after Buffett's announcement, then fell back, but BH is still taking delivery. If rates don't start back down after Buffet has his physical silver, watch out, some serious movement could begin.

Platinum lease rates got up over 100% during its rise.

Get out yer flamethrowers, everybody : )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 21:56 - ID#30116)
Silverbaron -- I haven't looked at the number in a while, but sixteen to one reserve ratio sounds about right. So for a $100 deposit, a bank can loan out up to $93.75. Now take that money and deposit it in to another bank, and they can loan out up to $87.89. On and on and on it goes. Isn't fractional reserve banking amazing?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:00 - ID#374211)
@ Indonesia Slaps IMF on Currency Board...I must keep a eye on Rubin's "ZIT" index for telling signs

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:01 - ID#153102)
I think Tolerant1 thinks ANOTHER does not know about the GREEN MACHINE. But, I think he does.

A United States unilateral military action will change the whole game. Overnight. The tone of things will change. Haggis says if you have them by the b___, their hearts and minds will follow. But, they don't. Their bodies and lips will follow while they must, but you can never be sure of their hearts and minds.

The oil-greenback-gold relationship is real; it is fragile; and the United States canot simply break it without incalculable long term consequences.

Bill Buckler
(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:04 - ID#257234)
Japan's Big Bang
Auric: 21:17 - That's what I spent most of the last issue of The Privateer talking about. One point here. The head of one of the big Tokyo Banks has testified to the Japanese govt that if the "Big Bang" goes ahead, he expects less than ten of Japan's 148 banks to survive. He didn't say if his bank would be one of them.

Three other recent items of interest.

The Chinese Premier, in Moscow to meet Mr Yeltsin, has issued a joint communique with Mr Yeltsin DEMANDING a "diplomatic" solution to the Iraq problem

Argentina has announced that the "Mancasur" nations, of which it is one, will meet this northern summer re discussing setting up a mutual "reserve currency".

The Finance Ministers of 22 nations are to meet in Washington - subject as yet not stated.

Gold is slowly but surely losing its grip on the $US 300 level. If the Japanese "Big Bang" does take place, its a good bet that a lot if individual Japanese money will be heading for $US - and they won't be going there to buy Gold, not in the short term.

PS I do not think it is acceptable practice here for me to include The Privateer's URL. If I am mistaken, Bart, please let me know.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:06 - ID#30116)
sig_A -- I think FDR said, "In politics, nothing happens by accident." There's too much reliance on technology for warfare. People just love the 'high tech' video game-like qualities of these 'actions'. Once upon a time, I did D.O.D. work. You know who would make the best equipment operators? Kids who were good at video arcade games! Except for cost and the consequences, the military stuff bears an eerie resemblance to the video game consoles. Complete, down to the joysticks and trackball controls...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:12 - ID#342376)
"Big Bang"?
Can someone talk more about Japan's "Big Bang". Why that may happen and it's implications?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:13 - ID#255151)

Don't reckon its a crime for me to post the URL to The Privateer.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:20 - ID#287129)
Hello all,

This is my first posting. I've been a frequent lurker on this forum for several months, and will probably make only an occasional posting.

First, I'd like to thank all who are responsible for creating and maintaining this web site and forum; and I'd like to say HELLO to those whose postings I've been reading.

I'm not an authority on PM or investmensts, as my track record demonstrates. Two years ago it became obvious to me that the stock market was grossly overvalued, so I pulled out too soon and went into leveraged PM and gold stocks. I've lost most of the value of my IRA because this happened to soon. In fact, one stock that sat idle for three years in my IRA account TRIPPLED just one month after I liquidated all of it to buy Caledonia Mining at $5.00 per share because a so-called expert recommended Caledonia. ( He thought it would go over $20.00 per share. CALVF is now below 25 cents per share. ) Almost all my monies went into leveraged PM's and gold stocks. I guess you could say that the war on gold prices has shattered me financially, because I did the right thing too soon. Instead of a good return, I'm now playing credit-card bingo because of meeting margin calls on the leveraged PM's.

My latest disappointment came today when most of my remaining leveraged silver was sale-stopped because prices dipped just barely low enough to take me out...and it is simply too risky for me to get back in. I'm getting extremely frustrated at thosed who keep shorting the market to drive the price back down every time we get a good rally in the metals. It's taking all of my self-control to avoid wishing them a dose of their own medicine, as my losses have gone into their pockets.

In spite of all of the above, I must admit that events in Iraq concern me even more now, because the future of the whole world might be at stake here. Some of you may wonder why there is so much talk of World War III in an investment forum...and perhaps it is because NEITHER our money ( gold and otherwise ) nor our losses will mean anything if we end up getting killed in a war. In my opinion, this planet is in danger of self-destruction because of the walking egos that are in positions of power throughout the world.

Now, back to investments... Are the markets manipulated? Well, the results of my internet research would seem to validate that which we already believe. Is there a conspiracy? Your guess is as good as mine. In either case, I know I'm not alone in experiencing financial earthquakes because of making the right decisions at the wrong time.

It seems that most people in business care only about one thing: MONEY. Most people who have money are bankrupt in the compassion department, and they are quick to kick someone who is down. This has become obvious from the criticism dished out by business associates whom I once believed to be my friends.

Money is power; and the more power someone has, the more power he/she tends to want...even at the expense of hurting other people. Money in and of itself is neither good nor evil; but HOW one uses money and power will reflect that person's TRUE character and spirituality.

As for me, I'm now praying to simply regain my PM losses caused by the assault against PM's; however, I'm also praying for a spiritual healing throughout this greed-centered planet. Let us hope that peace will win out over war. Can't we find a way to blend the best of the East and the West?


(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:21 - ID#288295)
SPEED @ COMEX stocks

The COMEX info is at

but I can't view it; perhaps a subscriber-only option. Let me know if you have better luck.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:27 - ID#340459)
Skip, I wish you the very best, my friend. I think that Gold cannot go down indefinetely now, The
time for reckoning is near.. Just hang in there till March.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:27 - ID#30116)
I guess the question for gold is, "Will we ever break the 100 D.M.A. ?" Untill this gets broken, the downtrend is still in force. Anyone care to pick a low price for gold this time around?

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:33 - ID#288295)

I've found this charting system fairly useful up to now - it appears to me that the short-term downside is around 290 or so, with the overall uptrend still in force.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:39 - ID#30116)
O.K. Weekly gold chart....

All of this hand wringing over Iraq. As usual, it's not about Iraq. I was just listening to a radio program, and a caller said that he was worried about a hand grenade with anthrax in it being used as a terrorist weapon. Geeeez! Stir peoples imaginations and.... O.K. Back to gold.....

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:44 - ID#30116)
Silverbaron -- Call me crazy, but I actually see some signs of encouragement in some gold stocks. I can also see a retracement of fifty to seventy-five percent of recent gains, BUT, the trend seems to be up for the short term. Of course, that statement was the kiss of death for the gold stocks.. :- ) )

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:44 - ID#286199)
Yup, the info is there but for paying subscribers only. Thanks anyway!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:46 - ID#197313)
Graph (gold),
anybody clicked on that yet?Hong Kong looks like it was
jumping on the open,don't kid yourselves this is a volatile
market that could go at any time,I think up but one way or the otheit appears to be on the edge.Got to be bullish with such a
small setback while silver got routed.I'll be up watching
London's open ,hope it's a shark attack! ( anybody trading
grains check out the ProFarmer site,they called the fall
in grains before the open this morning,farmers waiting over
a week to unload their wheat in S.A. ) or listen to Cherokee

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:48 - ID#250251)
False prophets
My deepest sympathy for your plight, I too bet heavy and too early on the PM markets but luckily not with any leverage. There must be a vast plethora of novice investors who's futures have been wrecked by so called self proclaimed experts. I have learnt to totally disregard the so called experts on this site and any newletters who profess to be able to time market events, they are without exception false prophets one and all. Some persistently proclaim every year that the end is nie Gold will rise and some day no doubt this will come to pass. I've no doubt then they will repolish their egos and undeserved reputations.

The best any expert has been able to demonstrate to me is to provide some plausible explanations to events already upon us and to highlight the many possible paths that future events could take. The course one choses depends mostly on ones personnal beliefs and moral background but one does have to have very strong convictions these days to stay any given course. I was once totally convinced that Gold would be a safe haven in any serious market turmoil but this has so proven incorrect. It may indeed now be true that Gold as a hedge is dead, the reason does not really matter, the plain and simple truth is that Gold does not work in the western world anymore. Yet. Silver is a different story.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 22:49 - ID#30116)
One more comment about Iraq. Isn't it amazing how the price of oil can go down under the current situation? These are interesting times. I guess Mr. Market knows all, and just isn't telling me what I want to hear! :- ) )
Good night all.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:03 - ID#206358)
Testing!Hong kong's gold /silver market analysit.... chinese language!

These is one very interesting page/site from hong kong about metals!I post down below,please refered ( use big 5 software to read ) .Anyone interested please send me e .
There are 20% popullations are chinese,so why not learn their language?Just a suggest.....!

1998 02 18 ) XCl??315

Q     ^ í M    M W  M  v
T  j C    ~  f   q C   u
M v T     ~ U ^   O M   O
Q    M  H    e      
  ` C p G   I  J A  b   
   @ I K T   M h |     
    C

P  M   M    {   í  M  H
u   w    u  O M      
  q  ^   M   i    y n M
A  b    f M     M    
M b G  E Q G     C

²   M   M  ~   |   P B M
    |      M ]  M   
i   X C R J   M V  q   O 
U C

w  b Q v u  ^ í U M   i W  
T  @ Q    M u n p x  b E K ~
      M      | y J

translated read:There is big support at 292 per oz for gold .and the short term will see the rebound to 315 per oz.strong buying at this level of 300!


(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:10 - ID#237299)
D.A. re: your 21:23
I always remember a line I heard in some movie from years ago. The scene was a couple
of "street people" washing windows at some busy New York intersection- they then approached
the driver hoping to get a buck. The older man was certainly poor, but wise with years of
observation, and he was trying to teach the younger man that dignity came from inner
attitude towards any job, no matter how degraded it might appear. ( also trying to teach him that the world isn't always what it seems ) After being alternately paid by yuppies out of guilt, or rebuffed, or ignored- they encountered one woman, who rolled up her window in disgust, and yelled something about getting a job, while speeding away.

The old guy turned to the younger one and said, "You know, what most of these people don't
realize is that they're only two paychecks away from the streets."

I frequently reflect on that line while driving around looking at the conspicuous consumption around me. I agree with you, that we certainly have the technology and the infrastructure to maintain a minimum level of good shelter and supply, but lets hope that a huge chunk of the population doesn't loose their jobs or life savings or ability to purchase these minimum levels if things get that drastic.

I came away from that movie also realizing the irony, that if a *true* disaster ever struck; an economic crash in confidence, or a nuclear war, that the street people would go on with very
little impact on their daily routine.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:11 - ID#286224)
Early victory reported in WWWIII (Skip 22:20)
RE : Skip at 22:20

"I'm also praying for a spiritual healing throughout this greed-centered planet. Let us hope that peace will win out over war. ....."

--Skip ......... .........................


Light on the horizon.


I too find my self worried that in looking for rise in the price of gold at the expense of great suffering an anguish around the world I may awaken and find my middle name is Juda.

Mo in To
(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:11 - ID#347205)
Don't Be Gone Tooooo Long

Yup, some wit indeed!! Megacat has no attitude, he just thinks
he is a dog and actually is the size of a small to medium pooch, depending on his mood, but he has stopped chasing cars, now he just growls.

So what hoppened to POG? How are the Asian markets doing this evening?

Don't be gone too long, I'll miss your posts.

Mo in To

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:13 - ID#286224)

...Ooops! Make that "Judas"

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:13 - ID#344308)

cut and paste for weaponry

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:18 - ID#255151)
Remote Viewing

Been thinking about ANOTHER. Here are my Big Thoughts. ANOTHER is one of US! Look, many fine Actors and Actresses have apeared on the Kitco stage in various roles. Examples are Bernatz de ( and "du" ) Ventadorm, Big Trader, and that nice Jewish grandmother last spring ( can't remember her handle ) . It could be ANYONE at Kitco. Suspects include, but are not limited to the following-- aurator--notice that their names begin and end in the same letter. They have the same number of letters in their name. One name only large caps, the other small.... or what about Panda, eh? Has he ever DENIED that he is ANOTHER? ( he sure as He** denied he was BC! ) Or just maybe "good ol' Bart" has "another" side to him, eh? The Truth is out There. Go Gold!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:19 - ID#237299)
@SWP1...a quietly whispered amen.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:20 - ID#34883)
Suharto sacks Bank Governor

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:23 - ID#401460)

JIN are you familiar with this company they make a Chinese internet translation / keyboards? Just curious.

3 +7/16 +17.07% 146,100

Be careful over there I enjoy your post. I forward them to a friend who is about to return to Indonesia. I will give him your address.


(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:30 - ID#286230)
I still think ANOTHER is one of the writers for the TV Sci-Fi called
The Last Conflict. The main Character is a gender-free Alien who is attempting to take over Earth while convincing us that he/she is trying to help. The Alien speaks in generalities and obscurities. The Kitco Alien is atempting to sell a load of gold to us and wants us to believe that it is going up. Probably a European broker.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:40 - ID#401460)

Sorry if this has been already posted.

Tuesday February 17, 10:37 pm Eastern Time
Homestake to heap-leach at Nevada gold mine

PERTH, Feb 18 ( Reuters ) - U.S.-based Homestake Mining Co ( HSM.AX ) said on Wednesday it would immediately
suspend milling operations at its Pinson gold mine in Nevada.

Homestake said the suspension was due to depressed gold prices and significant improvements in alternative
heap-leaching gold recoveries at the mine, which it owns 50/50 with Barrick Gold Corp ( NYSE:ABX - news; ABX.TO
- news ) .

The new plan will see all ore grade material at the Pinson mine heap-leached, including high grade material which
was previously milled, Homestake said.

The new operating plan would improve earnings with cash production costs expected to drop by US$40 an ounce
and annual gold production set to increase by 20 percent to about 60,000 ounces, Homestake said.

Heap-leaching enables gold to be mined using solvent extraction technology.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:42 - ID#374211)
@ Japan says G7 will welcome Yen-US$ move...

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:43 - ID#335190)
Mozel & Capitalism-Corporatists @ 1840-Central Bankers-USofA-Van Buren-Harrison-Tyler-Gold-Killed???
Mozel @ 04:50 February 14 or 15

What is going on with capitalism AND There are no capitalists, just corporatists

Mozel @ Tue Feb 17 1998 18:16:
Developments have gone to the point where the greenback has become the engine of commercial colonialism. It is their nation's impending colonization that will separate Central Bankers from their.... love affair with the greenback.... or get them.... killed or.... fired 

This could be of interest to you and others:

USofA ( 1840 ) President Van Buren ( 3/4/1837-3/31841 ) Democratic party. The presidents message December 1840 proved a very lengthy and elaborate document, much of which was devoted to a review of the American banking system, which it scourged and excoriated most unmercifully.

President. Van Buren charged his election defeat, which had just been concluded, mainly to the influence of the moneyed institutions of the country.

1841 - President William Henry Harrison ( 3/4/1841 - 4/4/1841 ) Whig party. Inaugural Address:  When the Constitution of the United States first came from the hands of the convention which formed it, many of the sternest republicans of the day were alarmed at the extent of the power which had been granted to the federal government, and more particularly of that portion which had been assigned to the executive branch. There were in it features which appeared not to be in harmony with their simple representative democracy or republic.....

 And, knowing the tendency of power to increase itself, particularly when exercised by a single individual, predictions were made, that, at no very remote period, the government would terminate in virtual monarchy.

It may be observed, however, as a general remark, that republicans can commit no greater error than to adopt or continue any feature in their systems of government which may be calculated to create or increase the love of power in the bosoms of those to whom necessity obliges them to commit the management of their affairs.. And surely nothing is more likely to produce such a state of mind than the long continuance of an office of high trust.....

When this corrupting passion once takes possession of the human mind, like the love of gold, it becomes insatiable. It is the never-dying worm in his bosom, grows with his growth, and strengthens with the declining years of its victim.

If this is true, it is the part wisdom for a republic to limit the service of that officer, at least, to whom she has intrusted the management of her foreign relations, the execution of her laws and the command of her armies and navies, to a period so short as to prevent his forgetting that he is the accountable agent, not the principal--the servant, not the master.

President Harrison died after a brief illness, the first who died in office. ( age 69 ) Funeral procession in Washington was two ( 2 ) miles long. [ USofA Population 1840 was 17,068,112]

Vice President John Tyler became President, ( 4/6/1841 - 3/3/1845 ) In the month of July, a bill was introduced in Congress for the establishment of a National Bank. This passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, and was sent to the President for his signature; when, to the astonishment of every one, President Tyler returned the bill with a veto message. He set forth his views at length with reference to the measure, but they may be all summed up as follows:
1. That he had always been opposed to such a bank
2. That this was perfectly well known at the time of his election to the vice-presidency
3. That he had since seen no reason for changing his opinions on the subject.

A second bill for a Fiscal Bank of the United States was prepared, after consultation of the President with his cabinet, and certain members of the House of Representatives. This also, was vetoed. Presidents cabinet thereupon threw up their commissions, with the exception of Mr. Webster.

Ex-President Van Buren, upon this action of the President, published a letter in which he highly applauded his conduct. President Tyler in several places was burnt in effigy.

1842 - The failure of the United States Bank of Pennsylvania, in February, caused much surprise as well as distress. Its immense capital of $35,000,00 had so dazzled the eyes of the people, that the possibility of such a dark mishap as its ultimate ruin, never entered their bewildered comprehension. In Europe, even, not less than $15,000,000 worth of stock had been purchased, and was distributed among the middling classes in and about London.

In New York, the amount of $7,000,000 had been taken, and the balance was owned by the United States government, and the states south and west. According to the Directors, from January, some thirty days, had paid out in cash to keen eyed brokers $6,000,000, the Directors were forced to bend to the tempest and suspend.

1842 - The new President Tylers unsparing exercise of the veto power, caused a committee of the Representatives to recommend his impeachment.

1844 - A New British Bank Charter Act effectively yields control of the nations currency to the private bankers of Londons Lombard Street. All bank notes are to be issued against securities and bullion in the bank vaults The Bank of England.

Shipments of gold abroad--largely to the United States--have depleted British gold reserves, jointstock companies have issued great quantities of paper money.

Thanks Take Care.

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:45 - ID#255151)
Remote Control

Selby @ 23:30--Most interesting. But it just might be that ANOTHER wants US to think that!

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:50 - ID#344308)

here's a report by our senate predicting the time frame for an
arab-israeli war....and a lot more.....the report was 'leaked' and
posted here last year.....seeds.......

grain is on the 'hellbound train'---savoy brown----
don't get in the way...gotta long way to go..........wooooo wooooooooo

(Tue Feb 17 1998 23:54 - ID#344308)


whilst circling the bronx in the smoke-signal-mobile----
i spotted ANOTHER delivering pizza-pie----me-oh-my.......