Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:04 - ID#210235)
@Cherokee re Saddam
This is one of those times when I don't enjoy agreeing with you.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:14 - ID#410114)
This is a problem for you?
Mozel: Sadly I must agree with you. Saddam is very weak, and it does appear that we now
have the support of critical parties. Saddam's support will vanish once his followers realize
that his power is gone.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:15 - ID#22956)
Did you get your shorts on today?? Look at me.....telling semi-demi what to do....... ( ohmy ) ...

One of my most reliable indicators is the 'Kitco-vehement-scale'. When the postings regarding gold spikes ( up ) get more vociferous I get quickly bearish. Watch NY take the piss out of Gold tomorrow. It will be swift and sit back and enjoy the show.....unless NickC and Sharefin and Windy want to get in on the early action and start the spike ( down ) right now....well? Nick@C? what say you matey? Let's get it on...there are too many folks here itching to buy gold lower.

John Disney__A
(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:16 - ID#24135)
Voice from the REALLY deep South
For SilverBaron
Doun Souf heah we call them kinds of bons "Rooster
That Cooreah is one of the slowah varietee. But
the part about the 50 pacent discount is riite on.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:19 - ID#335190)
Head Office IMF @ Directs Branch Office, Bank of Canada Corporation, get elected LACKEYS ON SIDE.
February 19, 1998
FOCUS-Unemployment a concern in Canada

WASHINGTON, Feb 19 ( Reuters ) - The International Monetary Fund on Thursday said high unemployment rates were a concern in Canada and urged the country to take steps to protect itself from the fallout from Asia's financial crisis.

In a statement, the lending agency welcomed the "strong fundamentals in the Canadian economy""and praised its central bank for bringing inflation down to one of the lowest rates among major industrialized countries.

But it also said the economy was operating close to full capacity and saw indications of "developing bottlenecks, capacity constraints and wage pressures," which may conflict with policies to cope with the impact of Asia's crisis.

"The possible effects of the Asian crisis need to be taken into consideration in formulating policy in the period immediately ahead, but the economy continues to exhibit considerable strength, and economic activity is approaching capacity limits," the IMF said.

" ( IMF ) Directors agreed that more monetary policy restraint had appeared to be called for." It said the Bank of Canada should "proceed cautiously""and adjust monetary policy in small increments.

The IMF also said Canada should retain its inflation target of 1 percent to 3 percent annually for the next few years.

"Continuation of the current target range would allow the economy further time to adjust to a low inflation environment," it said.

It commended the government for cutting budget deficits and said any money not used to cut shortfalls should be used to cut high tax rates and remove distortions in the tax system.

The IMF urged Canada to proceed with reforms of unemployment insurance, the pension system and dismantling trade barriers in order to make its economy more efficient.

The IMF usually reviews the economies of its members once a year and publishes a report on its findings if the country approves the release.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:24 - ID#286230)
Survey on Excess C$'s
Now that the Canadian Federal deficit is months away from disappearing
80% of Canadians apparently want more money put into national health care. What a difference a border makes.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:29 - ID#330175)
Hockey...................and goin for the GOLD
Go team Canada~~~~~~~

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:33 - ID#153102)
This is not a war they are doing. It's a war crime.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:34 - ID#57232)
That is out of context -- good night all!
Rob: You have only part of the conversation. What Mozel and I were referring to is that the US does not have the resources to keep the 'moral high ground'. What I think is best in the ME is simply to keep the Carrier force in place -- with the idea of wearing down Saddam, and expediting diplomatic solutions. Sadly we do not have the money for this, or the diplomatic expertise to carry this moral high ground approach off.

This rather aggressive military approach with insufficient ground forces may be regretted later. And the real question of Israel vs Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc. has not been answered, only postponed.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:34 - ID#255151)

Check out the Central Fund of Canada. It holds about a 50:50 mixture, in Dollar terms, of Gold and Silver bullion. It is purchased as a stock, CFE, on the Amex. The bullion holdings of this fund are stored in a private Canadian bank.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:36 - ID#255151)
That would be Prometheus, not Promethius)

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:41 - ID#153102)
If you buy ABX you get George Herbert Bush and Vernon Jordan as Senior advisors. FWIW. Good credentials.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:44 - ID#255151)

DOH! Let's try this again. The Central
Canadian Fund is ticker symbol CEF, not CFE. ( and I'm stone cold sober tonight...hmm, maybe that's the problem! )

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:44 - ID#261352)
Saddam is a power madman.He races to his destiny like many before him.
Waste the sorry SOB, and don't draw me visual pictures of the
higher moral ground.Humankind eats,sleeps,and makes little humans
We are still animals and Darwins theory does apply.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:45 - ID#210235)
Thank you, I'll look into it.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:50 - ID#227290)
Prometheius: gold stock
You might check out Campbell Resources ( CCH:NYSE ) . It's about 50 cents. It has production in Quebec and about $40 million in the bank. Also has two other projects: one mine just closed in Mexico, will reopen if enough reserves can be found or gold price high enough. Third project on hold in Panama has 350,000 proven and probable, easily minable ounces.
It's not going much lower, if at all and it has good upside potential.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:53 - ID#210235)
Thank you. I'll look into it. Although at 50 cents it's going to be a hard sell to the other trustee. Nevertheless, it may be another arrow in the quiver.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:55 - ID#261352)
EB I'll ride you like a 2 bit prostitute when this is all over.Your hell will be here.
Oops I got too emotional!I meant to say " eat your liver with
some Fava beans and a good Chianti." YUM!

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:58 - ID#261352)
Hep Crap where are you I want to RUMBLE!
But with dignity.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 00:59 - ID#57232)
Your approach begets more violence.
BEZ: I would suggest a different 'title' if you want others to respond. I remember what my grandfather said about WWI, WWII, and the Korean war -- he volunteered for all three. He said 'scratch the surface of a man, and you will find an animal'. My point is that one must live by example -- from strength if necessary. But if you stoop to the level of someone like Saddam, you are little better.

How are we to stop the imminent conflict between Israel and the other Arab countries if we just attack Iraq to depose Saddam, set up a pro-US government, and leave? That also virtually guarantees terrorism on US soil.

Diplomacy is the only answer, preferably while the carrier groups are there. Iraq is not the real problem in the ME.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:01 - ID#210235)
Thanks. ABX is a safe call, for sure. Will never get called on the carpet for that one. Checked with a VP of one of the nation's largest investment banks today, and that was the ONLY one he would suggest.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:05 - ID#210235)
Don't want to sound "Oh so northeastern Harvard Boston connected". Wouldn't trade every investment banker in the country for my Kitco real human being contacts. Suspect some of youze guys is Haaaavard northeasterners, too.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:11 - ID#261352)
JTF,I love you man...But....The intelectual discussion on this site is off the
political and economic mark being sculpted by the big money right
now.Problems need solutions.Military,political,economic or
otherwise.My nom de plum is the yin of the worlds yang.Face it.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:11 - ID#210235)
you should, perhaps, be less stone cold sober, and I more. Then less of the self would leak out. Mozel, Bush and Vernon Jordan? Why do I not find such a coupling unreasonable? Perhaps because we are within reach of the Bohemian Club wherein all such high falutin' folks come together.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:16 - ID#261352)
@ last philosophical post...Is the US at or nearing is Fall of the Roman Empire?
The similarities are timeless.Unrest at home and Barbarians at
the gates.Well nuke the gates and it will be OK!? Yes? PS go
the Euro.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:17 - ID#210235)
@bill el zebub
Does the US have barbarians at the gates or IS the US the barbarian at the gate this day?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:26 - ID#210235)
Did you really just start trading out of a Ken Roberts class? I mistook you for one who's been on the scene for a long time. Talent will out.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:27 - ID#153102)
Most interesting regarding the invvestment banker. Which firm ? Is he "political". He may know the government's plan for gold. Or maybe he just knows ABX will know because of senior advice .

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:28 - ID#339212)
@ Prometheus and Bill El Zebub

The Roman empire lasted almost 500 years,

is the US too young to die ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:29 - ID#210235)
I suspect "senior advice" and am declining to seriously consider said recommendation, except as regards future legal liabilities. Your advice, however, I respect.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:32 - ID#261352)
@ Promethius..Is the Trilateralist viewpoint one of barbarianism or do small
self centered clans,dominate what you call the global norm for
my sons future. Saddam is a bully not grwon up.Too many toys.
Time for a spanking.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:35 - ID#17155)
US Fall vs. Roman Empire
Let me give you another similarity: the "leadership."

The world has waited for a long time for somebody to out-do Caligula and Nero. US "leadership" may just qualify for that distinction. It is very hard to find in the recent world history a bigger imbecile than Clinton.

One of the recent performances of the Clown in Chief: when asked what he thought about Yeltsin saying that the Iraq deal can mean WWIII, he responded "Nyet does not mean No to me." Smooth One would think that the clown would figure out by now that what was not appropriate to say to Paula Jones is much less appropriate to say to a head of another country. What if Yeltsin told US: "No does not mean Nyet to me?!"

Having said that, and admitting that US government is a dinosaur that WILL SOON go the way of the dodo, I cannot agree that this can be said about the American people. There are a lot of normal people here, alienated long time ago by the "system," who will regain control as soon as Bubbas start something that they cannot handle. The process, however will be hard ( much harder than the previous American Civil War ) .

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:38 - ID#255151)
Gold Medal Hockey Update

Team Canada and Czech Republic scoreless
after one period. Team USA disgraces itself OFF the ice as well!

John Disney__A
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:40 - ID#24135)
You must be joking
For Beetlebug
Admire your good old yankee self rightiousness.
But if you INSIST on bringing morality into it, suggest
you try recalling that US backed the Shah, against the
apparant will of Iranians, then They backed Saddam and
armed him, then they sorta said it might be Ok if he took
a little bit of Kuwait, then then beat him up but let
him live so they could use him later ... Who are you
kidding. The US has been attemption to manipulate the
Middle East since Carter was president. Before that
the Oil companies via the "third party sale" mechanism
drove the oil price to almost a dollar a barrel.
From the Arab viewpoint, I think a punitive strike
inside the beltway would be in order, rather than
bashing Saddam again.
Frankly when that fat hairdoed mammas boy pervert clinton
talks tough like John Wayne it reaally makes me wanna
throw up.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:41 - ID#261352)
@Myrmidon...half-lives degrade with time my friend. May I wax biblical?
The the bible is a story book for easy thinking. Revelation too
is cyclical. Time wraps back onto itself. Yin and Yang.PS is
Reveltion the correct book for interpretation?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:44 - ID#210235)
@bill el zebuB
I'm really sorry to say that, socially at least. Trilateral guys aren't spouting their innermost thoughts to the wind or whomever is within hearing distance. Believe it or not, in my personal experience, these guys see themselves just as more good old boys. Sorry, but that's how they see themselves and that's how they project themselves, at the personal, familial level.. We all believe our own story. Even Clinton, I'd bet. ( no personal experience there ) . This was the major shock and most difficult thing I've had to deal with in my life. And I am speaking, truly, from the inside, soft, warm fuzzy familial circle. So another myth goes down the drain. I don't expect you to believe it more than Joe on the stree believes in the CB manipulation of gold stocks.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:46 - ID#210235)
sorry, bad proof reading:
stree = street

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:50 - ID#288155)
DER SPIEGEL Vervielfltigung nur mit Genehmigung des SPIEGEL-Verlags

Article in Der Spiegel re: SH/USA and USAs desire to transform NATO into a global peace force. Neither the Germans, the French, nor the Spaniard General who is NATO Secretary-General NATO are half-pleased about this turn of events.

Kohl evidently opened his cabinet meeting up for what was termed a lively discussion: Would Saddams chemical and biological weapons in the bombardment really be destroyed? Would they be set free with terrible consequences for the people? Does Israel have to be afraid of a poisonous gas revenge attack with Scud rockets? Would an air strike be covered by the UN resolution from the war year of 1991?

However, dear old Klaus Kinkel says that even if the Americans and Brits decide to bomb, they can depend on Germany, absolutely!

But as to the Albright sketch that NATO forces should be stationed around the world at peace keeping stations, the feelings were very much more negative.
So bombing yes, as long as it Yanks and Brits and Bonn need only nod approval, stationing German troops around the world, forget it.

Mozel.What.To.Do I believe very, very, very little I read in American press ( usually the date on the paper ) and marginally more of what I read in foreign papers about Americans and American policy. I was considerably younger when I arrived at Kitco last November. Aging rapidly. Youre very welcome.

Gnight all.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:50 - ID#339212)
@ Bill El Zebub

A major shift in US foreign policy can add years to its life.

A continuation of the current US foreign policy will accelerate its half life.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:51 - ID#261352)
Petronius et al who believe a president is more than a product of INBREEDING
Wake up! Do you think ANY president past FDR was born to the post
Have you heard of television and merchandising.You must think
Nan and Ron Reagan ran the country when in office. Sorry all,
reality bites.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:51 - ID#210235)
It's really beyond my ken to evaluate the US in terms of the Roman Empire. For one thing, it isn't nearly as great or pervasive as the other. So why attempt a parallel? Why, the British Empire collapsed only in the period just before WW1, and I thought the US abdicated in favor of the Japanese ( economically ) in the late 80's, with similar repercussions to the Japanese to too-rapid expansion in the 80's as the US in the 20's. So, I'm having trouble putting your question into a framework. Sorry. It would be easy, now, to compare the US to the British, or the Japanese in the 90's to the US in the 30's, but the Roman Empire? Perhaps you could enlighten us on the significance.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:55 - ID#210235)
@bill el zebub
If you're here for an argument, that's an old Monty Python gag and we charge $5 up front.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:58 - ID#261352)
@ Myrmidom 1:51...A change in US foreign policy ...PLEASE...are you a NUN
Priest or believer in th HOLY GRAIL? They see this as the
beginning not the end. The NEW PARADIGM.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 01:59 - ID#153102)
@the scene
Hear Hear, John Disney.
Hear, Hear, Petronius.

Prometheus, what you say about these people is very true. Did you know Goebbels was a devoted family man ? Even in that regime, people believed their own stories. The elite of this commercial greenbackk empire think they are bringing a better life to the people of the planet. More order. A new world order, in fact.

Also, if no one mentioned Newmont, I will. Low costs in S.A. And politically connected enough that they got to make forward 1997 sales.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:01 - ID#261352)
Promethius are you Status Quo?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:02 - ID#210235)
@John Disney
Would you mind elaborating on the dollar a barrel oil which you mentioned in your last post I read? Unfortunately for me now, I was too busy having fun to pay attention to the Carter administration or its policies and how they affected the middle east.

By the way, my elder dog is ready to take on your wife's three dogs in a fartin' competition anytime, John. Anytime.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:04 - ID#252150)
Disintegrating Empires
The roman Empire gave them circuses--The U.S. gives them Jerry Springer.

To Paraphrase Tocqueville "America is the only Country in history to achieve a civilization without first having achieved a culture".

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:05 - ID#210235)
@Status quo
Sorry, I am not and have no knowledge of such tag.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:06 - ID#261352)
@SDRer_A ...FNN talking head said after Clinton to the Pentagon...Air attacks
wont get it.I guess that means ground. Or assination.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:08 - ID#255151)
Hitting Below the Beltway

aurator--Inside the Beltway refers to Washington D.C. Government/Politics/Culture. The Beltway is the Interstate Highway that encircles the District of Columbia. If you refer back to "Who's on First?", then you will have an understanding of What it's all about.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:11 - ID#153102)
For the life of me I don't understand why people are always quoting Tocville ( sp ) . Was he saying we didn't have a french culture ? An English culture ? Maybe he was looking for portrait painters. He wasn't in this country that long. I don't understand why his quotes are supposed to have authority.

What America does have is variety.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:12 - ID#261352)
Let the games begin. BC et al your move. NITE ALL....sorry for
my catharsis.Next BM a day or two after the OLYMPICS.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:14 - ID#252150)
Clinton as War Hero
From the safety of the pentagon in Washington D.C.
He'll be in on the attack with barely controlled glee
And if he stays out of the way the Generals will all agree
He's the mightiest Commander-in-Chief the world did ever see

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:15 - ID#210235)
Please give the Germans a break. When the wall came down they released into their small universe about 120,000 former Nazis, or such-type communist very busy trouble-making East German Secret Police upon the people-o ( Cherokee, forgive me ) . This was of sufficient import to cause me to walk away from a many thousand-mark business deal in the making, just to get away from it all. We gave up a both a residence in the making and a business that was darn exciting, in seven languages. Well. It's history now. But those former NAZI/Communist secret polizi folk have created a unique situation wherein they are attempting to blackmail major corporations on food poisoning. See this week IBD for reports of this. Pray for the good people of Germany, my friends. They continue to pay, and pay, and pay for the mistakes of their fathers.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:15 - ID#330175)
2nd intermission(hockey stupid)......................*go gold*
Canada 0 Czech Repub. 0

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:16 - ID#210235)
@Bill el zezub
Any time.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:23 - ID#252150)
Beauty & ugliness are in the eye of the beholder.But Mickey is cute & those millions of nice old ladies with blue hair who visit Disney Land every year can't all be wrong.
Got to watch Canada win the Gold. See--on topic.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:24 - ID#210235)
Thanks again for answering my petition for a gold fund suitable for widows and orphans.

Cherokee and 6-pak: Tonight I've finally faced the music and realized without doubt that I can't join a tribe because my european family intermarried with the natives too early, and only once. Thanks again for finding us Providence and saving that strange-one, whom the Bostonians were going to burn as a witch, from the stake. It is beyond generations, the debt we own you for finding us Providence. May our progeny continue to increase in number and influence. If it wasn't a D*** slow night in the gold markets I wouldn't have spent the time researching the other. Our debt is eternal, and philosophical.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:26 - ID#210235)
Does it make you wish for the days of Napoleon when his presence upon a field of battle was measured as that of thousands of men?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:27 - ID#330175) mean win the right to go for the GOLD-----------
Tomorrow night

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:29 - ID#210235)
@signing off
Good night. Thank you for more help on the "widows and children's" trust than I could have hoped for. Will do my homework.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:50 - ID#339212)
@ Prometheus

Of course there are other empires which outlasted the Roman. This one
lasted almost 1,100 yrs, unfortunately few people know about it in detail.

John Disney__A
(Fri Feb 20 1998 02:52 - ID#24135)
Oil companies aren't any worse than anybody else
To prometheus
In the period from 1966 to 1972?? crude oil prices
were falling .. The majors were offtaking ferociously.
Japan was the main force driving the price down and Japanese
growth was VERY strong over that period. The mechanism
worked like this .. Say Exxon ( for example ) was
supplying crude oil at a "competitive price" to its
refining/marketing affiliate onshore. Meanwhile, The 3rd
party sales department of Exxon would approach
another Japanese company ( a competitor to its affiliate )
and offer crude at a lower price ( the rationale was
PLUS business .. also the profits on THAT sale would be
tax free as they could be used against tax losses offshore
.. should be action harm the profitablity of the affilliate
the Japanese partner took half the loss ) .
In addition, Internationals without japanese
affiliates quickly established 3rd party sales offices
in Japan to sell crude oil.
Step 2 would occur when the japanese partner would
wise up and notice his foreign partner supplying lower price crude
to his competition ...
... then Exxon, say, would have to reduce the price to
the affiliate. The net effect was a rachet downwards
in the price of Gulf sourced oil. Im sure we broke
2 bucks a barrel for Gach Saran from Iran and the same
for Arab light .. never got to a dollar... Saudis
woke up ... closed off everybody ... and the price shot
up. It was the old incremental business myth that
selling a bit more at a lower price doesnt affect your
core business. Not true.
In 1973 the oil companies were BAD GUYS in the US
for letting the price go up.. Nobody ever considered
how far the price had been driven DOWN previously.
The companies were then taxed on "winfall profits"
by the greedbag gummnt when inventories were revalued
from say 2 to close to 30-35 $/ barrel. When prices
FELL to around 10$/barrel in the mid 1980, nobody even
TRIED to claim inventory losses.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:07 - ID#393224)
OK r
Since you are forcing me to take a position--here goes:

Gold today in New York will go UP...err.... well....maybe DOWN....err 'bout sideways!! Ouch--wish this wasn't a picket fence I was sittin' on!!

Don't really matter, mate--caus it's correction time. Be patient. Silver is the new game in town. Gold will take it's sweet time and make us all squillionaires!! Wanna be a multi-squillionaire--pay attention to silver!! There are so many underpriced silver mines around that I'm like a kid in a candy shop piggin' out on me favourites. When J.Q. Public wakes up to the bonanza--the prices will have doubled and I shall be even cockier than I am now!!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:12 - ID#153102)
@John Disney
Very interesting story of oil. Very poorly managed business arrangment. Done with no consideration for the core relationship of the business. Cost gazillions in profits.

My sister in law knew Phillips. He admired the Arabs very much.

Have you any thoughts on the closing of the London gold market ? If there are as many "bad" gold loans outstanding as one might suspect and that is why there are the rumored delivery delays there, how migght that work out ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:26 - ID#255151)
Shoot Out @ the Nagano Coral!

Canada, Czech Republic 1-1 after overtime.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:33 - ID#255151)

Czech's to go for the Gold.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:33 - ID#330175)
Czech Repub. WINS a shoot-out

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:35 - ID#330175)
Whatta Game!!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:36 - ID#330175)
Pretty good!!...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:37 - ID#393224)
OOOOOOHHHHH CAAAAAAnadaaaaa....sob...sob...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:37 - ID#255151)

Czech, Canadians in a fine performance. Team USA still a disgrace for post game antics.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:41 - ID#255151)
Ted Edges Auric in Kitco Shoot-Out

Ted--Never was a big hockey fan, but that was a damned exciting game!! Go Gold!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:46 - ID#252150)
Aaaaah........who wants gold
that barbarous relic. Bronze is more durable.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 03:56 - ID#233199)
That Saudi flip flop sure got squished by the propoganda machine!

Hardly a word to be heard - and such sweet fuel for speculation too.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 04:18 - ID#228283)
@aurator...Fade the paper...

The PAPER is us. It is what our order is written on which come into the pit. Since it is assumed that the "PAPER" is ALWAYS ( stress always ) wrong, everyone in the pit wants "the action" to make a quick buck.Like betting against the shooter at a crap game. After your order is executed ( dont you like that word ) the LOCALS will run the stops and burn the PAPER ( weak position ) . That's probably why 85% of the novices,who trade thru brokerage houses, lose money. Why do you think they are called BROKErs?

Been doing some chart work. To me IMHO one should sell one gold and buy two platinums because the spread looks like it wants to widen.

Anyone have some thoughts on this?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 04:18 - ID#28885)
Gold Gold Gold
Has anybody taken a look at the major commercial commitments of traders on the gold market. Most previously obtainable information shows comercial commitment almost split, but slightly to the long side. Is there really a wonder why gold is doing this -------------------------------. Back when gold was at the 280 region commercial commitment was heavily long. In my experiences commercial is where to be, because the public is 90% WRONG. Maybe the sideline is a good place to be for the time being, or try S&P's, copper ( heavily long on commercial commitment ) , bond markets ( heavily short commercial commitements ) . I have been long gold and made a few bucks but for the time being I am waiting this out.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 04:35 - ID#255284)
Yodel odle eaaya ahhooooo

Got it buddy, thanks.

If you don't know who is the mug at the poker game....

I am no stranger to "fast" dealers and brokers, I was an insider down under myself once.....and have read several accounts of Wall street *Wide Boys* at work...nothing really new up there, except the language...

but I'm listening to
Guy Clark singing Jimmie Rodger's "In the Jailhouse Now." nite..

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:00 - ID#266105)
@the singing brakeman

Not a bad idea. ( pop! ) ssssssssluuurrrp. AAAhhhh.

Think I'll put it on, too.

Dreaming with Tears in My Eyes. Bono

Any Old Time. Alison Kraus and the Union Station

Waiting for a Train. Dickey Betts

Somewhere Down Below the Mason Dixon Line. Mary Chapin

Miss the Mississippi and You. David Ball

My Blue Eyed Jane. Bob Dylan

Peach Pickin' Time Down in Georgia. Willie Nelson

In the Jailhouse Now. Steve Earl & The V-Roys

Blue Yodel #9. Jerry Garcia, David Grisman & John Kahn

Hobo Bill's Last Ride. Iris DeMent

Gambling Bar Room Blues. John Mellencamp

Mule Skinner Blues. Van Morrison

Why Should I be Lonely. Aaron Neville

T for Texas. Dwight Yoakam

Egyptian Records release/1997/first from Dylan's new

Y'know aurator, Ise use'ta get all my news and
and information from album liner notes until
vinyl went out of fashion. Now's alls I got
is a l'il birdie.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:27 - ID#255284)
wooooo--pass on by, unless you wanna take a little East Texas Waltz..
That's my talk...I know the songs, many of the artists, But this sounds like a Tribute album, I mean, David Grissman, MC Carpenter, Steve Earl..Iris de Ment, ahhh Iris de Ment...Jerry Jeff, Willie, Rodney & Rosie, James McMurty Johnnie and the Hagg...dang heart lives in Texas, an me bod is in NZ have a ton of this stuff on vinyl, one of the few Texas collections in NZ.....worth its weight in gold

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:38 - ID#288295)
COMEX stocks 2/19


Registered... 297,496

Elligible.... 142,872

Total ... 440,368 -2,043


Registered... 31,871,079

Elligible ... 59,705,971

Total ... 91,577,050 -248,764

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:39 - ID#266105)
@get lucky, Lucky!

'Sleep at the Wheel was purdy good live, college days.
Still got that some of that other rogers vinyl around.
Offline, music time.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:52 - ID#255284)
I'll never get out of this world alive
musta heard 'sleep at the wheel's version of Hank's Classic on Vinyl in 74. Hooked on the band for most of albums since. have a baker's dozen on both LP & CD
BIG TV advertising campaign in NZ--


OK, its' for a Radio Station playing Classic gold hits from the 60's & 70's ..long live sub-liminal messages I say..

(Fri Feb 20 1998 05:52 - ID#255284)
I'll never get out of this world alive
musta heard 'sleep at the wheel's version of Hank's Classic on Vinyl in 74. Hooked on the band for most of albums since. have a baker's dozen on both LP & CD

BIG TV advertising campaign in NZ--


OK, its' for Classic gold hits from the 60's...long live sub-liminal messages I say..

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:13 - ID#266105)
@bob wills...over&out

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:13 - ID#316193)
Japan's Latest Idea To Save The Yen...It May Work!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:15 - ID#316193)
Corrected URL

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:28 - ID#26793)
"We are looking into a new currency system where the yen will play a central role"

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:30 - ID#316193)
Plan to Boost Yen, Stong Asian Play...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:37 - ID#316193)

Thanks for the correct link!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:42 - ID#26793)
U.S. House short the votes to pass IMF bailout

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:49 - ID#26793)
That yen story is important. It is very un-like the Japan of the past.

Crystal Ball
(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:53 - ID#287367)
From Fiend Super Bear- Analysis of the Stock Market Bubble
you must check out the displays at this URL

(Fri Feb 20 1998 06:55 - ID#29082)
WSJ - China gets the GOLD
Hong Kong's Gold Mart Is Stirred by Asian Crisis


HONG KONG -- Asia's financial crisis has put a new shine on this entrepot's once roaring but lately lusterless gold market, as tons of the precious metal course from cash-strapped South Koreans, Thais and
Indonesians into the hands of smugglers bound for China.

The sudden surge of activity has breathed new life not only into a fading market, but also the handful of aging traders at the Chinese Gold and Silver Exchange. Until a few months ago, many say, they dozed on benches ringing the small trading floor. Now, rejeuvenated, they stand and bark out bids.

Disappearing Act

Hong Kong's 1997 gold trade, in metric tons

Gold imports............432.93
Gold re-exports...........6.89
Gold consumption.........51.00
Gold unaccounted for*...375.04

*Most of the gold unaccounted for is smuggled to China
Source: World Gold Council

Seventy-one!" yelps a balding octogenarian in a rust-colored trader's blazer, his bifocals fixed on a monitor displaying gold prices from around the world. On a recent morning, he's offering gold for sale at
HK$2,671 ( US$345 ) a tael, an ancient Chinese measure, or about US$288 an ounce. The Hong Kong exchange keys off international prices but reflects
local demand.

Few people here buy gold for investment anymore. Even Hong Kong's tradition of slathering brides in gold jewelry is on the wane. About the only thing keeping the territory's gold exchange going are smugglers who haul bullion into or out of China to capitalize on the difference between world market prices and mainland prices set by Beijing.

In a bullion shop near the exchange, a blue-aproned man stacks 20 gleaming gold bars on a counter while on the other side of a bullet-proof window a buyer counts and recounts thick wads of ochre HK$1,000 bills. The gold is headed an hour's drive north into China, where it sells for US$40 more an ounce, the buyer says.

Dumping Destination

That trade has been given a boost by Asia's currency crisis, which unleashed a fresh torrent of metal into the market. Central banks began dumping gold to shore up foreign-exchange reserves and several countries have mounted donation campaigns to round up rings and necklaces that can be sold for U.S. dollars. People are also selling gold as the price in
local currency soars.

Hong Kong became Asia's gold center early this century, when money changers used bullion as the standard against which to value the myriad currencies brought to the then-British colony by traders, sailors
and refugees. And when Portugal opted out of international financial accords fixing gold prices after World War II, Hong Kong became a conduit for smuggled gold -- including Nazi bullion -- en route to nearby Macau, a Portuguese colony. Communist China's price controls later kept the smuggling incentive alive.

Gold, already associated with luck and the emperor, became an obsession with Hong Kong's insecure, upwardly mobile population. From gold Rolls Royces and Rolex watches to gold teeth and toothpicks, the color is the territory's gaudiest trademark. Its popularity even spilled to Chinatowns overseas where Hong Kong's ubiquitous gold jewelers set up shop selling miniature gold Buddhas, water buffaloes, even gold Mickey Mouse figurines. Hang Seng Bank, one of the territory's biggest homegrown financial institutions, began as a bullion house; many of the
town's tycoons got their start trading -- and sometimes smuggling -- gold.

But gold's popularity plummeted after Hong Kong pegged its currency to the U.S. dollar, removing the metal's role as a hedge against foreign-exchange fluctuations. Income-earning investments such as
stocks and bonds soon replaced gold as the territory's preferred "store of value." By the time gold prices started falling 10 years ago, few Hong Kongers were buying the metal for anything more than decoration --
except smugglers bound for China.

"Our gold market today is a tenth of the size it was 15 years ago," says Jason Wong, head of the bullion department at Hong Kong's Po Sang Bank.

Fraught With Peril

Of the 433 metric tons Hong Kong imported last year, more than 300 tons were "re-exported," mostly to China, where Beijing sets the price high to subsidize state-owned mines and their astronomical production
costs. Most gold in China is used to make jewelry, but analysts believe that with smuggled gold flooding the country, the central bank has been forced to stockpile reserves. As East Asians sell more gold and world prices continue to slip, the smugglers' profit margin widens, luring more people into the risky trade.

Last month, one Hong Kong man fought off cleaver-wielding attackers bent on stealing the 100 kilograms of gold stored in his apartment -- and
probably destined for China. A few days later, a Japanese businessman was robbed of $1 million in cash shortly after he arrived in the territory to buy gold.

But the business is a welcome trend for local gold traders, who may otherwise face extinction. There's little practical demand these days for the five-tael ( or about 168-gram ) 99% gold bars they trade; almost all local jewelers now use finer 99.99% gold sold in one-kilogram bars. The tael trade, a "physical" market whose only function is to set local prices, requires constant refining and recasting of gold between the
two standards.

"Since December, there's been quite a lot of gold delivered through the exchange," says Herbert Tsang, the ex change's manager. That gives the traders something to shout about, and for now, the trading floor is filled with echoes of the old days.

Crystal Ball
(Fri Feb 20 1998 07:28 - ID#287367)
For you blokes in Cape Breton, courtesy of Reify
An Ontarian wanted to become a Newfie ( ie. a Newfoundlander ) . He went to a neurosurgeon and asked "Is there anything you can do to me that would
make me into a Newfie?"
"Sure, it's easy." replied the neurosurgeon. "All I have to do is cut out 1/3 of your brain, and you'll be a Newfie." The Ontarian was very pleased, and immediately underwent the operation. However, the surgeon's
knife slipped, and instead of cutting out 1/3 of the patient's brain,
the surgeon accidentally cut out 2/3 of the patient's brain. He was
terribly remorseful, and waited impatiently beside the patient's bed as
the patient recovered from the anesthetic. As soon as the patient was
conscious, the neurosurgeon said to him "I'm terribly sorry, but there's
been a ghastly accident."
The patient replied "Qu'est-ce que vous avez dit, monsieur?"

(Fri Feb 20 1998 07:31 - ID#26793)
Japan establishes bank rescue group using public funds

(Fri Feb 20 1998 08:22 - ID#316193)
@Donald, Re. Japanese Moves..
The Yen stood at 127.4 = U.S.$ at 8:15A.M. Should be a big
drop in the dollar today if the Japanese plan begins to work.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 08:23 - ID#280215)
It's about 8:25 am and it looks like last message on my display says 7:30. I can't believe that this forum has been this quiet for an hour without saying anything at all! Just testing to see if the posting works.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 08:27 - ID#243180)
latest from "The Economist"...

"... RUSSIA and the IMF agreed on an economic plan for 1998 and on a one-year extension of a loan programme. But the Fund said it would stop lending to HUNGARY because its economy no longer needs outside help... "


Debt-ridden INDONESIA continued to alarm the IMF, its would-be rescuer, by considering a proposal to peg its declining currency against the American dollar, instead of allowing it to float. The governor of the central bank, who was believed to oppose the plan, was sacked. B.J. Habibie, a minister who favours costly state projects, was in line to become vice-president and President Suharto's likely successor. Amid growing unrest as a result of food shortages, attacks were reported on Chinese shopkeepers... "

(Fri Feb 20 1998 08:35 - ID#220272)
Great URL!
Crystal Ball, love the charts....THANKS!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 08:56 - ID#258427)
Anybody home???...Gold tanking ...Silver tanking ... Dollar strong ...Someone answer the phone....Earth-to-Kitco ... Call home

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:02 - ID#26793)
Kazakhstan miners not paid for months. IMF requirements to blame

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:02 - ID#410114)
yesterday you said that today gold was going to skyrocket. What did/do you base your comment on?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:03 - ID#398105)
Nick@C (Aussie Silver Twins)


The platinum group elements are as yet not announced. The core samples have been sent to Lucas heights in Sydney for analysis. Very good results are anticipated.

Exploration is at an early stage, and I don't think the two companies are being aggressive enough.

Gutnick is yet to waken up to his newly acquired tenements which he got from his take over of Eagle Mining.

This will take a bit of time to unfold.........nothing but upside.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:08 - ID#403159)
FARFEL Re: 2/19 posts
What was all the excitement for.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:13 - ID#258427)
Wasn't Farfel excited about Buffet
having a stockholders meeting or something???

Anyone know??

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:26 - ID#410114)
farfel's posts
I suspect that farfel's 2/19 posts were hope as opposed to calculation

JOE Smith
(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:26 - ID#24869)
Haggis====another bulk test
I hear aone ton sample has been sent to another lab to back check MetZ and to clarify assays as some assays have been rejected as visible silver in cores was lost..

as for Rhobium and other PGM cannot yet confirm if assays are going there ,they may havr to go to USA or Japan----ant suggestions would help.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:27 - ID#153102)
Interesting Posts from Japan.
Looks like the IMF has local competition to bail out Indonesia.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:27 - ID#333131)
Looks like gold is waking up from its snooze around $300 +/- $3.
Perhaps an interesting day.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:36 - ID#228100)
Gold down $2.35 already?
Looks like someone knows something.... There's no breaking news on any of the web sites yet ( AP/CNN/ al ) .

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:44 - ID#403159)
PM's can't hold a rally. Farfel ( a contrary indicator ) .
The metals may be in serious trouble. Looking to
jump ship.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:45 - ID#254269)
good morning all.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:56 - ID#153102)
Why do governments everywhere hate gold and love credit
Gold is hard to tax. It's distributed.
Credit is easy to tax. It's centralized.
CB's accummulate gold as much to make people easy tax targets as for currency defense.
Gold = freedom. Paper = slavery.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:57 - ID#197308)
USDA exports,
mildly bullish for wheat and corn bearish for beans.
GC J8 300 calls going for under 300,cheap way to play the long side
for 3 weeks go gold

(Fri Feb 20 1998 09:59 - ID#254269)
Australian General reports that Indonesian army in control;

it sounds like the trouble is just starting.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:03 - ID#153102)
Can anyone confirm a change in bank regulations where they now refuse to deposit a check to any account other than the account of the party to whom the check is made out ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:10 - ID#222231)

W.B. quite simply the greastest investor of this century.Over
four decades of investing he has not had single down year and
has achieved an average compound annual return of around
30%. His most lucrative investments have been long term, but
he made many short term investments and trades also for a
quick profit.

The last silver's correction a few days ago was very healthy for
the market because it was too strong for too long of a period of
time without a correction.

Stock of silver in Comex warehouse fell again by 113,560 troy
ounce to 91,825.814. That's equal to about 18,000 contracts
on Comex. Let me remind you that not even the full amount of
silver currently in vaults would be available for delivery since
some is there for safekeeping, has long against it or does not
even qualify for delvery without being assayed again. Currently
are open interest of over 50,000 contracts in March and still
some concern by the heavy short position ahead of first notice
day for the March contract which is February 27. This is why most
players will want to be out of their March position in a week. All
of this W. B. allready knows. Silver's price explosion it is immanent.

HI HO SILVR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GO SSC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:12 - ID#273112)
Desperately seeking Susan B. Anthony...
I've tried to wheedling out of my respective Senators from Texas ( Grahm, Hutchinson ) office minions the current ceiling on the Federal debt.

They are clueless. Does *anyone* out there know the current debt ceiling? JTF, you mentioned yesterday that Congress had found a way to furtively raise it - where did you here this?

Finally, FWIW: US Treasury "Debt to the Penny" page ( ) shows a $6 billion dollar increase yesterday in the US debt. Like the Duracell bunny, it just keeps growing and growing. Only we keep being told it's zero. I need to brush up on my Orwellian doublethink to help swallow this BS.

02/18/1998 $5,516,263,758,020.16

02/17/1998 $5,510,166,063,080.80

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:20 - ID#238295)
the action
Bullion's beak this morning was not surprising considering recent weakness in gold stocks. Still looking for a drop to the $290 area folowed by a big rally.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:23 - ID#411149)
Year2000- someone eluded that peace could breakout in the
mid-east. I am not sure traders need a reason other than they do
not like Kitco people.

Tally Ho

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:25 - ID#258427)
Silver out of Backwardation...March Silver @
$6.68 and spot at 6.57 ...THAT'S DIFFERENT...If silver is so short...why out of backwardation?? Anyone??

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:26 - ID#280215)
Gold Doing It Again!
First of all, it's only down a couple of bucks so I wouldn't get too excited yet one way or another. Obviously if its down $8 or so by the time I get done posting, then I'd start squirming/dancing ( depending on Long or Short ) .

Only Farfel can say for sure because I don't know if he trades technically or fundamentally. But without putting any words in his mouth from a technical/charting viewpoint, yesterday April Gold was trading in a large triangle on the hourly charts. It broke decisively above the triangle showing a possible breakout upward. Towards the end of the trading session, it began going down a little to retest the broken downtrend line on the triangle. In chart analysis, this is normal and usually indicates a test of the trendline and a big break upward.

However, as usual, gold tested the trendline and broke back through it to the downside far below the original triangle. It has done this before on daily and weekly charts and was usually followed by a steep violent drop in the next few days/weeks ( depending on the chart ) . I'm sure it's confounding the techy's because since this downtrend started in 1996, it's doing everything the books tell you it SHOULDN'T do. It keeps going down, when it looks like it should be ready to go up.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:28 - ID#254269)
"War is hell if nobody believes you"; Interesting op-ed piece in today's WSJ

Page A18 by Paul Gigot about how Clinton's "credibility" is wearing thin on Iraq.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:35 - ID#330175)
It's a SEA of WHITE...................and Good Call EB!
The ocean from here to Scaterie Island ( 8-11 miles out ) is a sea of white-ICE~~~~~~no kayaking t'

Quixotic 1
(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:41 - ID#48200)
New tricks for "Snoopy", the bank teller !!
Mozel, your 10:03

I have recently run into the same problem at the three banks I do business with. Last summer I recall, one of the tellers had mentioned that this action was in response to new regulations. I have noticed a new vigilance in carefully observing checks that are submitted for deposit. The tellers ( minimum wage earners ) have rejected anything that is not specifically made out to the names on the account. I am also getting a great deal of flack for "my" standard endorsement "All rights reserved, without prejudice", which is placed directly above the signature. The banks seem to fear this endorsement more than a run on their funds. There have been many letters between the bank's counsel and myself about this issue.

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:43 - ID#26793)
@Mozel: Why do governments hate gold?
Every day you get to vote for either gold or paper. That is equally a vote in support ( or against ) the government. It's more election days than they can stand; gold is the essence of a true democracy.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:50 - ID#197308)
Silver and Gold,
Glad to see they are moving together,although gold
down less than 1% silver over 4%,I'm thinking it's going to be silver that's going to pull gold up and out of the miree it's stuck in.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:54 - ID#243180)
The credit union of which I belong had handled this "new regulation" by removing specific financial and personal information on the return receipt: such as, amount in account, address of person, etc. Apparently if this is done the bank can accept a deposit from you into another account.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:54 - ID#273112)
BINGO! JTF - you are right! Federal Debt limit is now $5.95 trillion
Subject: RE: What is the current ceiling limit on Federal borrowing?
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:46:41 -0500
From: Budget

The current ceiling limit on federal borrowing is now $5.95 trillion

Regan Walsh
House Budget Committee

(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:54 - ID#26793)
How do manufacturers spell Asian relief? R-A-T-E C-U-T

PH in LA
(Fri Feb 20 1998 10:56 - ID#225408)
Check cashing practises at the bank
Mozel: re your question about bank practises

No banking expert I, but in my experience, every account must be identified with a federal tax ID number, either social security number in the case of an individual, or an identifying tax id number for a business entity. My bank will accept a very occasional check made out to my business if I also endorse it in my name. I have a more formal arrangement with my credit union to accept larger numbers of checks made out to the business when I endorse them with a stamp that includes both the business name and mine. I would be very surprised to see a bank accept for deposit a check made out to an unrelated third party. After all, this is what makes a transaction by check somewhat more secure than a purely cash transaction.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:05 - ID#57232)
Bill Buckler, where are you? What can you tell us about debt ceiling?
Spud Master: I can't give you a specific reference regarding some members of congress being able to raise the debt ceiling without being forced into public disclosure. Several months ago, I and several other Kitcoites were having a dialogue with Bill Buckler, of Privateer fame, and we noted that we were again hitting the debt ceiling. It was odd, given that we were supposed to have such a low deficit this year. Someone commented that we might have some commotion when this happened. Bill Buckler ( I think ) said that that was not going to be a problem, because individuals ( or a committee ) had authority to raise the debt ceiling. I think the message was essentially that both Republicans and Democrats did not want to be in the limelight with a repeat budget crisis like the one we had several years ago.

In the light of a possible panicky request from the European bankers/investors for a bailout to the tune of as much as $1 trillion for SEAsia, this is a serious matter indeed. Such a bailout of what was once called the 'third world' debt after a similar financial collapse occured at least once in the past -- with 'government secured' loans. Unfortunately all that happened was that the debt was transferred from bank/investor to government ( the people of various countries ) , and was not repaid anyway. What followed a few years later was a major bout of inflation. I think at that time the world powers bankrolled the loan bailout -- now it looks like the US would be the sole provider, if the Europeans have their way with our money.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:08 - ID#22956)
Ted...and Nick@C
finally rc'vd errant emails ( 40 ) ( ugh ) . They were floating in cyber space. Comes the task of replying...go gold.
Nick@C, will you mail me? I have a question or two to ask, thanks. the tank

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:11 - ID#273112)
Of course, it begs the question, if we have a "balanced budget" for 1998
why are we having to raise the ceiling on Federal borrowing to $5.95 trillion?

Hmmmm. A little back-door loan to the IMF?

Or maybe to pay for the $800 million spent on "Operation Futile" the Hatian Restore Freedom Fiasco that the American Press & we have all quitely forgotten?

Or maybe to pay for the cost of Desert Storm II: The sequel. Staring a cast of thousands of soon to be dead Iraqis?

America - the land that honesty, truth & freedom packed up and got the hell out of Dodge.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:13 - ID#273112)
Followup email from the Federal gov, wherein Spud asks #1) when was ceiling raise, & #2) why
Subject: RE: What is the current ceiling limit on Federal borrowing?
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:06:16
From: Budget


The debt ceiling increase was a part of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997.

The answer to your second question is long and complicated. I could mail
you a response, or fax one if you would like hust send me your address.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:15 - ID#57232)
Kitco contrarian Indicator
EB: Can you explain to me why you thought the Kitco mood was an indicator of bearish gold activity during the last week or so? Other than a few nearly perpetual bullish comments, I saw nothing unusual.
Good call anyway -- I have noticed my gold stocks dropping, but did nothing on the assumption that we are just testing the bottom. Hope I am right in following the consensus that 280 is the bottom. Technically, as long as gold does not penetrate this number, I think will are at the bottom, IMHO.
I will buy some more gold stocks when we test the bottom -- only 30% at the moment - rest cash.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:15 - ID#23782)
Give um hell Spud.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:15 - ID#261157)
Word markets Friday: Asia mixed,
( AP )  Asian stock markets ended the week mixed Friday, with share prices
rising in Tokyo despite disappointment over government's measures to
stimulate the Japanese economy.

Tokyo's benchmark 225-issue Nikkei Stock Average rose 139.76 points, or
0.84 percent, to close the day's trading at 16,765.24 points.On Thursday, the average gained 2.59 points, or a marginal 0.02 percent.

Japan's ruling Liberal Democratic Party unveiled a package of stimulus
measures Friday to reignite growth in the faltering economy, but the omission of tax cuts and public works spending reinforced doubts about the prospects for a recovery.

Domestic investors bought shares ahead of Saturday's Group of Seven
industrialized nations meeting in London, where Japan is expected
to be pressured to stimulate its economy and help neighboring Asian nations emerge from their econonic crisis.

Meanwhile, the U.S. dollar was quoted at 126.80 yen, up 0.92 yen from late Thursday in Tokyo and also higher than its late New York rate of 126.16 yen overnight.

Thai stock prices closed sharply higher in a last-minute rally as foreign
institutional buying apparently prompted local investors to do the same.

The Stock Exchange of Thailand index rose 11.42 points, or 2.2 percent, to 521.83.

In Hong Kong, share prices closed generally higher, despite news that
Moody's Investors Service has downgraded the territory's credit ratings.

The Hang Seng Index, the market's key indicator of blue chips, rose 18.52
points, or 0.2 percent, closing at 10,599.79. On Thursday's the index had lost 89.68 points.

Share prices opened sharply lower, but rebounded in the afternoon session
on selective bargain-hunting, brokers said.

"The overall sentiment is not bad. But people just don't want to take major positions," said Francis Lun, research analyst at Pacific Challenge Securities Co.

He said investors may be holding back because of news that Moody's has
downgraded the territory's short-term note and bank deposit ratings because of the region's financial crisis.

SEOUL: Share prices closed generally mixed, with the key index rising 1.7
percent as investors continued to buy selected blue chips. The Korea
Composite Stock Price Index rose 8.68 points to 522.13.

JAKARTA: Indonesia share prices closed slightly lower. The benchmark
Composite Index fell 1.020 points, or 0.2 percent, to 495.232.

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysian share prices closed generally as lower, but the
key index rose on selective buying of blue chip stocks. The Composite Index rose 4.56 points, or 0.6 percent, to 728.06.

SINGAPORE: Share prices closed lower, with many investors staying on the
sidelines ahead of the meeting of the G-7 nations in London over the
weekend. The Straits Times Industrials Index fell 7.68 points, or 0.4 percent, to 1,545.79.

TAIPEI: Share prices closed higher for the fifth straight session. The market's key Weighted Stock Price Index rose rose 58.97 points, or 0.65 percent, to 9,037.48.

WELLINGTON: New Zealand share prices closed generally lower. The
NZSE-40 Capital Index fell 10.97 points, or 0.4 percent, to 2,282.63.

MANILA: Philippine shares closed mixed as investors took profits on selected blue chips and shifted funds to second-tier issues. The 30-share Philippine Stock Exchange Index slipped 0.39 point, or 0.02 percent, to 2,135.91.

SYDNEY: Australian share prices closed lower after investors sold down stock across the board. The All Ordinaries index fell 13.7 points, or 0.5 percent, to 2,645.1.

In LONDON at midday on the London Stock Exchange, the Financial Times
100-share index was up 17.4 points to 5,735.9.

The U.S. dollar rose against the Japanese yen but was lower against other key currencies in European trading Friday morning. Gold rose.

Dollar rates compared with late Thursday:

Frankfurt  1.8181 German marks, down from 1.8235

Tokyo  126.85 Japanese yen, up from 126.25

Zurich  1.4661 Swiss francs, down from 1.4705

Paris  6.0947 French francs, down from 6.1115

Amsterdam  2.0485 Dutch guilders, down from 2.0555

Milan  1,791.80 Italian lire, down from 1,797.25

London  1.4210 Canadian dollars, down from 1.4228

The British pound was quoted at $1.6380 US, up from $1.6356.

In Toronto, the Canadian dollar closed at 70.37 cents US on Thursday, up 0.56 cent. The U.S. dollar stood at $1.4210 Cdn, down 1.15 cents.

In London, the dollar is trading at 70.27 cents US, down 0.10 cent from
Thursday's close.

Gold dealers in London fixed a recommended price of $298.35 US bid per
troy ounce at mid-morning, up from $297.90 Thursday.

Gold traded in Zurich at $298.10 US, up from $298.00.

Gold fell 10 cents in Hong Kong to $298.15 US.

Silver opened in London at $6.67 US bid per troy ounce, up from $6.66

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:17 - ID#243180)
1994 Congressional Record,,,, Federal Reserve is a scam,,,, as if we didn't know,,,

"... so many of whom have expressed surprise when I have explained exactly what the Federal Reserve Board is. It is not a Government agency. It is a private corporation. And the stock in that corporation is owned by the private commercial banking system. The Federal Reserve is a federally chartered corporation whose stock is owned by the member banks. The board of directors of this corporation are appointed by the President, confirmed by the Senate. But unlike any other public official, there are no provisions for recalling any board member in case their policies run counter to those of the elected Government... "

"But I will say this to the panjandrums of power, Mr. Greenspan, and to you, my colleagues, and the privileged orders of our country: If we do not, the day will come when the people in full knowledge will rise in wrath and indignation and chase all of these moneylenders that have sold out their inheritance from this temple of democracy... "


(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:18 - ID#261157)

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:26 - ID#413109)
All- For those that know me, a short time or personally, or through
the mails, and my posts, know that I'm not one that cries wolf.
I am a skeptic, and I'm not a youngster, and I'm not easily influenced
by religious predictions, or those of others who try to sell or influence
HOWEVER-I do have my own philosophy of life, and I do my own analytical work, both in the markets and in life, and I do observe, and learn from
others, and lately I've been reading transcripts of interviews of people
on the Art Bell show, and especially those of Major Ed Dames, and I've
come to the conclusion that a lot of what I had thought rubbish, coming from ZIVA, or Moshe, a year ago with his Quantum Leap theories, and warnings, and stuff about Remote Viewing, ETC., may not be so far fetched
after all.
I recommend, no- I urge you- to go the this site;^4221@.ee6e04e>^4221@.ee6e04e- and
pick out several or all of the Ed Dames's interviews, read them and
come to your own conclusions. If you're still skeptical, I'd like you
to personally contact me and tell me why, what, and where.
You don't have to take everything as the gospel, but it certainly will
make you start thinking about things you may not have thought about
before. I refer specifically about survival, not just financial, but physical, and how you can talk about this with your family, and friends. That is
another problem in itself, as people may think you're going off the
deep end, if you start sounding like ZIVA- Right?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:28 - ID#243180)
Federal Borrowing and Debt

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:30 - ID#153102)
@Checks & @Donald @Debt
@Checks Thanks for the confirmations and tips. I think this new regulation is tax related. I think they found out they could not track transactions through check endorsements. PH has a unique, or government approved, idea of what a check is in my opinion. This new regulation shows uptight these people are. It also seriously diminishes the utility of a check as a financial instrument.

@Donald How right you are. But, it's Republic, Donald, not demon-cracy. Interesting that demand for smuggled gold is high in China and apparently compelled the CB there to acquire gold. Too bad Americans don't have more common sense about government and taxes.

@Debt 8-5-1997 debt ceiling raised to 5.95 Trillion. Don't remember any publicity on that. The shell game is in high gear in DC. SpudMaster has found the tracks being made by something big going on, but I don't don't what.

I repeat my little truism: the final crisis of a socialist regime is always a financial crisis.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:30 - ID#340459)
Much Big Money looking for direction, can go either way. Gold has been negative so far,
Victory belongs to the patient, Amen...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:35 - ID#258427)
@Reify...have you got a better url...this is what
I get from your posted url...

HTTP/1.0 403 Access Forbidden ( Read
Access Denied - This Virtual Directory
does not allow objects to be read. )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:51 - ID#340459)
Nothing makes sense in this market as wisdom seldom guarantee's prosperity
If Gold does not go up in next 4 weeks, I will deduce that it has played great Innings in shaping Human civilization in the past and close to it's remarkable end in the pages of History as a great performer since time immemorial. It wants to stay buried with Tutankhamen and studying it may not bring new life..

Maybe it is teaching us a lesson in life...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:53 - ID#57232)
Ed Dames -- I have read his dialogues with Art Bell
Reify: I would be cautious taking Ed Dames' comments literally. While I suspect there really is something to 'Remote Viewing' partialy from my own guesses about reality from a Quantum Mechanical viewpoint, if you read carefully, you will see that he is a master of the use of the word, and by his own admission, remote viewing is not very reliable about the 'when' especially when he is referring to the future.

Let us assume for a moment that remote viewing is possible ( tall order, but could be ) . Apparently the way you tell time is from the 'positions' of the planets at the time of interest, and then deduce the Julian time. This is not an ideal method to tell the time. Also -- think about EdDames former occupation in the military. He is undoubtedly an expert in information dissemination, or 'disinformation'. Even Art Bell alludes to this. Ed Ames also said that only his predictions with formal remote viewing can be trusted, but he did not say which ones could be trusted.

I did take notice when Ed Dames said buy gold this year -- buy the metal, not the stocks, and his comment about a market downturn this year. But as with all predictions of this kind, I take them with a grain of salt.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 11:58 - ID#287207)
Chin Up
Midas: The problem may not be with gold it may be that most of the things we look for to help guess the price changes don't work as well as we think. If someone we to appear on TV and suggest that gold was going up how would the average person react? Like they were watching an infomercial for spray on hair or hillside land in California. At the moment the people who will drive the price up don't want to buy.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:10 - ID#187218)
If you hold physicals,,,, why do U want gold to rise ???
I understand that paper gold people want fluctuations in the market in order to fulfill their short/long positions re: contracts of options on the said contract. BUT BUT BUT for the rest of us ...

If one hold mostly physicals AND IS NOT CLOSE TO RETIREMENT ( I would say that this figure is a minority on Kitco IMHO ) why would U not want the POG to drastically decline ? I see this as a golden ( sic ) opportunity to acquire. It is also MHO that if the POG quadruples the physical holders are too young to retirement comfortably for the rest of their eternity. Let the POG stay low and the debt bubble expand so that their is NO GOING BACK to some other fiat currency. If we're gonna' do it,,,,, do it good !

Here's hoping the POG levels at $100 and 5 years prior to my planned retirement the POG should increase 50 fold and then I can wipe the forthcoming 5 years off the slate and have the fun we all dream about now...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:11 - ID#187218)
contracts of options == contracts or options.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:13 - ID#197308)
tTwo guys busted in Nevada,
What a joke,the F.B.I.,must have had these guys on hold
for quite some time,not to say they aren't dangerous but
what a obvious call from someone high up to drum up a little
validation for a little bit of global house cleaning.
On to PM's I don't think we can start feeding the bear yet
upside potential still on until silver stocks come up and
asia woes and S.H. situation calms ( me thinks )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:13 - ID#22956)
Here is some morning stuff at Comex, etc.

Now..... let us watch how they act after their sushi and martini lunches..and whatever else they injest... ( hmmm ) ...there are still some MIGHTY BIG BEARS out there..... ( BIG ) .

JTF - If I told you I would have to ki......hell, it's only a couple of bucks...thought we'd have more....w/w.



(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:21 - ID#254269)
Business Opportunities With Export-Import Bank Anyone ? Just came across this by chance this mornin

Today's WSJ Has an ad by the E-I Bank ( in Washington DC ) , soliciting
proposals to " share with or transfer to the capital markets a portion of the credit risk associated with its medium-term and long term guarantee and insurance programs". Enquiries on company letterhead need to be faxed to bank in Washington DC. or by calling Policy Development Department. ( and it gives tel/fax numbers ) .

Serious, folks it is on Page B14 of Southwest Region edition of WSJ.

I ain't making it up !

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:21 - ID#57232)
Remote Viewing
Reify -- I will stop filling up Kitco airwaves with this post. If you are serious in your belief in this topic, why not take the Remote Viewing course, or buy the tapes before you commit to moving your family or buying a property with an underground shelter. I am not aware of any recorded solar flares causing mass extinctions, but a Supernova could have done this in the past -- we would have advance notice on that if that happened.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:23 - ID#197308)
EB's Comex stuff,
I'm not picking up anything ( url not found ) ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:27 - ID#57232)
Logging off --
All: Our gold 'bear' today is pretty mild. As far as I am concerned, things are still looking good for a gold bottom. I will be very happy if we never see $280 again.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:28 - ID#254269)
Smuggling gold into Chica ? Ted, are you responsible for this ? WSJ Page

C17 ( Commodities Page ) , has article titled , " Hong Kong's Gold Market is Resurging as smugglers capitalize on Asia Woes ".

Details about how gold is being smuggled into China and activity on Chinese Gold Exchange..
Can someone pull it up electronically ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:28 - ID#365216)
3 days of darkness
Reify, Major Dames observations may be akin to the biblical
prophesies of the Three Days of Darkness during which demons
will run the earth and seek to destroy men's souls. Web search
on THREE DAYS' DARKNESS for more info.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:29 - ID#254269)
Meant to say China (my 12.28), cannot type today !

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:29 - ID#266105)

The gold they long

( a dollar they short )

Go gold they say

( drop dollar exhort )

Thousands an ounce!

( pennies a buck )

Don't wait to pounce!

( the buck's outta luck )

Gold is cheap!

( the buck's overpriced )

And beautiful too!

( George needs a 'doo )

Back up the truck!

( dump all your cash )

Can't wait a moment!

( if it burns do it fast )

Didn't you see overseas!?

( they look pretty cheap )

It's coming here next!

( Giant Frog's gonna leap )

Gold is oppressed!

( the dollar is free? )

They're keeping it down!

( and Elvis ate three )

They can't do it long!

( but they caaAAHHNN do it short )

I'm hanging on!

( for bugs that's a quart )

Where do I buy unreportable?

( to hide a loss? )

How do I hide in my plumbing?

( use mental floss )

We need change in perceptions!

( pocket change I perceive )

I bought five more Maples!

( his tree he did leave )

It's the CIA!

( and maybe your wife )

There's still time!

( place a call on a life )

The Fed's on the loose!

( chewed through the restraints )

There's no tomorrow!

( then no more complaints )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:30 - ID#410198)
FYI-DTN has no comex warehouse figures this morning,wonder why?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:34 - ID#222231)
JTS, Reify
Ed Dames is a fraud as far as I'm concerned and gives the name of RV a bad name. The person who developed RV at SRI ( Stanford Research Insitute ) was Ingo Swann. After thousands of strict tests under rigid controls, he proved beyond doubt to the gubmnt that RV was valid when done under strict conditions by people with the proper training. Ingo Swann has not benefitted financially from his discoveries except trying to clear the air from negative comments by media. He is one exceptional dude.


(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:34 - ID#333127)
IMHO a lot would like to see 290 gold to buy in, I know I have that intent. I think we have ssen the bottom and 298- 300 will hold.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:41 - ID#57232)
Pete: Thanks -- always best to go to the original source, and if possible, one that has not tried to 'hype' the product with the masses ( us ) . I have read some of Indigo Swann's stuff, and the reference to SRI. What you say is quite plausible. If you can post a url to the original SRI work, or that of Harold Puthoff, I would be very interested. I am interested in the process, not the predictions.

Sorry, Bart -- I promise not to post on this again today.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:43 - ID#222231)
See Speeds post 2/20/98 06:55 for article.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:46 - ID#289357)
robnoel @ COMEX stocks

I posted these this morning before 6:00; my source is

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:49 - ID#222231)

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:56 - ID#420116)
Silver info. - from Associated Press 2-5-98
Industrial consumption of silver is divided among photography, jewelry and silverware, and makers of products ranging from batteries to mirrors and electronics.

Photography accounts for the biggest industrial use of silver in the United States. Worldwide, however, it has been displaced since 1993 by the jewelry and silverware business, where demand jumped 45 percent to 262.9 million troy ounces in 1996.

Demand in the photography industry rose 3 percent last year to 232.7 million ounces, according to the Silver Institute, a Washington trade association.

Kodak alone needs some 50 million ounces a year to make traditional silver

halide-based photographic film and paper.

Because Kodak has long-term contracts with suppliers, "we don't normally get concerned about short-term price fluctuations," spokesman Paul Allen added. "In the longer term, we're not going to speculate."

(Fri Feb 20 1998 12:57 - ID#413109)^4221@.ee6e04e
Sorry for it didn't work, don't know why.
Ed Dames being a fraud-- am in no postition to defend him, only
suggest that the interviews on the Art Bell program were material
for some further thinking and investigating. Check them out, the
transcripts or the recordings. By the way he also predicts an economic
collapse, globally, not too different from many who have posted here.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:03 - ID#410198)
Thanks SilverB I am having no luck to-day could'nt access your 6 post another right wingconspiracy

(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:09 - ID#254269)
Pete; Thanks, I missed Speed's posting when I scanned this morning.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:11 - ID#413109)
JTF-Back @U
Like your tough reply, and if you noticed what I said, I too am a skeptic
but from your comments, I see you refer to only one item in one or two
of the interviews, read some from summer of 1997,infact read all that
are available, and then come back to me. Try emailing, it'll save a lot
of valuable space on Bart's site.
A lot of what he says has already happened and is happening, and the
possibilities of pandemic spread of diseases are also substantiated
by the tops in the medical fields. You see interviews with doctors on
the bube tube almost daily.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:16 - ID#187218)
1,,, You can "save alot of valuable space on Bart's site" by not typing.

2,,, Are you sleeping with this guy at the posted URL ?.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:23 - ID#411149)
Do yu reckon they are tryin to play ball with silver,
up two bits, down two bits.

Tally Ho

Trader Vic
(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:26 - ID#280215)
Straddler (Gold Doing It Again!) ID#280215:
Straddler...It is not uncommon to see Triangle Patterns first break up, as if it were a breakout, and then drop sharply...The Triangle is the weakest of patterns which predict a direction. These are the dangerous patterns to trade, wait for the direct to establish itself first.

Best of luck


(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:33 - ID#390249)
China CB lowers gold buying price
The Chinese CB lowered their gold buying price today so that it is more in line with Int'l prices. Obviously an attempt to stop the smuggling from HK.

Charles Keeling
(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:48 - ID#344225)
RE: RAFSANJANI to visit Saudi Arabia
tomorrow, 2-21-98.

Saudi Arabia to allow strikes on Iraq from
their bases. A key reversal in their stance.

It is in the works fellow Kitkoites. Iran
is going to take the Soouthern portion
of Iraq within days. Will Turkey take the
North part? Something BIG is up, and will
happen if not stopped by RUSSIA.

f we are correct, then what we have seen is Iran working parallel with the United States in persuading the Saudis to make their facilities available to the United States. Where the Americans did not have many levers available, the Iranians could place their influence on world oil prices and their influence of Saudi dissidents on the table. Former President Rafsanjani is going to Saudi Arabia this weekend, we think to discuss the Persian Gulf's future in greater detail. We may well be wrong. The flurry of diplomatic activity with Iran may be purely coincidental with the Saudi policy reversal. But given events in the world oil markets in the past few
days, Saudi fears of internal instability, and what we see as underlying
Iranian interests, we think that calling all of this merely coincidence is far more speculative and unfounded than is our own read on the situation.

No body wants it to happen, but it will
make a lot of good viewing on CNN very soon.


(Fri Feb 20 1998 13:53 - ID#252150)
An Easy Choice
If I had to choose between Blair, Clinton & Saddam for a partner in a back alley brawl against 2 hoodlums, I would choose Saddam. Blair has the moral fibre of the puppet he resembles-Howdy Doody & Clinton is a spineless, unprincipled charlatan. Besides that, he has a lousy golf swing.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:05 - ID#153102)
seems to be the leader on lots of disinformation stories about gold. Who owns reuters ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:11 - ID#234311)
Not sure who owns Reuters, but I have been told that its origins date back to the courier news system that allowed 'certain individuals' to reap obscene profits from 'advance' knowledge of Napoleon's defeat.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:11 - ID#57232)
Something's up with Iran!
Charles Keeling: Why would Saudi Arabia want to make an arrangement with Iran, and why would Iran want to work with us all of a sudden? I guess Saudi Arabia must be rather shaky right now -- would not have guessed, as I have been following their exchange rate -- seems stable. Rafsanjani ( sp? ) appears to be willing to set up a dialogue with the West, but I thought the hard liners still had control. They were friendly to our wrestling team. Genuine overtures of peace from Iran would be a welcome sight in the ME. Could be just the thing to promote long-term peace.

The partitioning of Iraq still sounds like a bad idea, probably spawned by the US no longer being able to deal from strength. That might be in the interest of neighboring powers such as Iran, and Turkey, but probably not in the best interest of the Iraqi people. Are we encouraging another Lebanon, or another Palestine? It would be beneficial in one sense, and that is that later terrorism on US shores might be less than if we shouldered the entire Iraqi compaign.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:20 - ID#287207)
You can rad what Reuters has to say about itself here:

Barb Hughes
(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:21 - ID#20783)

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:29 - ID#335190)
SDRer_A @ Gresham's Law Feb 19 22:50
Date: Thu Feb 19 1998 22:50 SDRer__A ( JTF-- ) ID#288155:
"You ( and D.A. ) did some serious work, which was read with great interest." Yes, I agree with you SDRer.

"Greshams Law is still functioning." I did not know about such law. I am posting what I have found, for those others, that also, do not know this LAW.

**In the words of another physicist: the act of playing the game, changes the rules of the game...** You also do great work SDRer. I have learned considerable, from your posts, and thank you.

.............................Gresham's Law
Naples 1750, ( 700,000 ducats - 18 million by 1751 ) ( gold/silver inflation ) a huge reserve of excess money, four times greater than what commerce required. When it could not be spent, the surplus money ( gold/silver ) was made into usable objects-silver watches, snuffboxes, cane handles, forks and spoons, cups and plates.

By 1650, the gold inflation that had prevailed for three centuries was displaced by silver inflation as the value of silver currency was cheapened. The era produced the paradoxical maxim known as **Gresham's Law** ( named for Queen Elizabeth I's counselor )

"Bad money drives out good" In other words, buyers will always prefer to use a watered-down currency to purchase real goods rather than a precious one, for obvious reasons. It's cheaper.

**Gresham's Law** became less relevant once the competition between silver and gold disappeared and governments moved to fiat money, but it still expressed the eternal uncertainty over money's correct value.

In fact, the long and turbulent history of inflation and deflation cycles suggested a heretical proposition: capitalism could not long abide stable prices. Otherwise, the centuries of experiment and innovation would surly have devised a monetary system that could provide stability.

Perhaps, instead, the process of capital accumulation actually produced periodic cycles of changing money values---inflation "easy money" to stimulate economic growth and spread wealth, followed by its depressant opposite, "hard money" which slowed down growth and reconsolidated the ownership of the newly created wealth...... ( 1998 eh! )

In the American system, it was decided, the people could not be trusted with these questions ( entrust the management of money to mere mortals )
( democratic aspirations-recklessly idealistic ) Some issues, it seemed, were too important to be decided by democratic process.

The Populist vision was rejected and history chose a different alternative. When the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, purposely insulated from the hot breath of politics, the new institution effectively defined the permanent limits of American democracy.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:30 - ID#254269)
Currencies to be discussed " a little bit" ;

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:32 - ID#252127)

If they partition Iraq, Russia will be one pissed off dude; as monies owed them by Iraq will have scattered to the winds

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:38 - ID#26793)
Clue here that recent Swiss bank merger was a rescue, not a merger.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:44 - ID#333232)
bits & pieces
Never heard of this before...
1/3 brain reading

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:46 - ID#26793)
Oil price declines force Mexican budget cuts (ie: deflation)

(Fri Feb 20 1998 14:53 - ID#228100)
Charles Keeling
Why do you think that Saudi Arabia will allow the USA to use facilities in their country? CNN and others are reporting that the Saudi's will not:

One thing to remember: Clinton would not be rushing into the ME if he wasn't ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that this would be an easy victory. The man NEVER takes a tough issue unless he certain he will get the credit for a win. Remember the Health Care issue? He let Hillary take the heat on that one and then dropped it like a hot potato.

With 500,000 Iraqi children dead in the past few years, you can better believe that SOME of the Iraqis blame Saddam, and SOMEONE is ready to take his place. Slick Willie just wants the credit. Making Saddam look powerful, with stories of nerve gas and anthrax, is part of the plan.

Will investors be scared, and therefore jump into PM's, -OR- will they be more complacent, figure that there are no more "problems" and jump out? There's certainly a move coming here, but I'm not certain which way!!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:00 - ID#28594)
Separated by everything but a common yearning for honesty and justice,

it is quite magical how--pursuing our very different paths, we arrive to meet in the same woodland clearing ...

...they have tried to content everybody with the cynical idea of "being practical in a sinful world". They have justified the use of paper money, even in Muslim countries, with false doctrines and meditated silence. While the Muslims all over the world are still today being cheated and robbed by a monetary system totally unjust, deceitful and contrary to Islamic practices,

Hunting for a recent ( 6mo or less ) fatwa--cause nothing will happen without one IMVHO...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:07 - ID#372344)
@ Charles Keeling...Don't get your hopes high up on Iraq "partition"
Here is a report from Iran where Rafsanjani is denouncing US
military build up in the Gulf, and further opposing any use of force by the
US against his enemy Iraq adding" it was the US and the West who
supplied the chemical agents to Iraq" doesn't sound to me like a
deal with the US is in the cards for Iran to annex South Iraq, to the
contrary, the US carriers better be on very high alert from all sides....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:15 - ID#28594)
Another's currency from the past re-enters, stage right? You may want to take a look at this?
I am proud to say that the dinar that Dr. Erbakan hold in his
hand when he first publicly pronounced his intentions in the
Blue Mosque of Istanbul, surrounded by the takbirs of our
excited and committed Turkish brothers, was a dinar struck
under the authority of the Amir of the Spanish Community, he
himself a long-time devoted Sufi of the Shadili-Darqawi-
Murabitun tariqah, in the city of Granada, may Allah reward
him by His Generosity for doing that.

I, like all the people present, will remember forever the
moment when His Excellency Dr. Necmettin Erbakan and my
Master, Shaykh Abdalqadir as-Sufi al-Murabit, together by the
hand, proclaim from the podium, to the cheerful people of
Istanbul and the shocked Turkish media, in the Opening
Ceremony of the I International Conference of Islamic Thinking
in Istanbul on May of last year, that the dinar was the currency
of the Muslims.

By the Mercy of Allah, all the sufies stand together in this
point of the introduction of the Dinar.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:18 - ID#20748)
French Barbs.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:19 - ID#372344)
@ Iran to Saudis "Deeply concerned over strikes on Iraq" Plans protests vs US....
Doesn't sound to me like a US ally.....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:21 - ID#340459)
Dollar is getting Stronger, DOW up by 20 points....
Sharks and Whales eating the tuna again......

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:22 - ID#28594)
I do believe this is it...or, ONE of the 'its'....Welcome the Dinar folks...

Paper Money is not a legal medium of exchange
If paper money is a debt representing a merchandise ( dayn ) :
The debt must have a definition of what is owed.

But even if it is defined as a proper debt, a debt cannot be used
as a medium of exchange. Concerning paper-money as wealth
entrusted to non-Muslims, this is not allowed.

If paper money is a tangible merchandise ( 'ayn ) :

Its value corresponds only to its weight as paper. Equally we
take the value of the dinar by its weight not by its nominal

Either way, paper money cannot be accepted as a medium of

An Instrument of tyranny

We have heard economists saying:
"We need a flexible currency"
"We need a currency that can be expanded or contracted
according to the needs of the economy"
"An increase in currency will quicken industry"

These are all fallacies to justifiy the insolvency of the issuers of
the notes in order to avoid their obligations to pay.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:26 - ID#28585)
Now I think gold and silver are going to drop through the floor!!!

Looks very dismal indeed.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:29 - ID#28594)
ME Knowledgeables--Im finding the Saudi story ( signing on to foreign troops /planes on Saud soil ) difficult to believe...

The Crown Prince, next in line to the old and ailing King, HATES the US.
It seems to me were either talking about dis-information or a Saudi civil war...

I go back to my post from the past ( Foreign Affairs, Winter 1991 ) --Ibn Baz reasoned fatwa that gave the acceptance to having foreigners on Moslem soil was predicated on SHs invasion of a brother. This fatwa was supported by the powerful Hayat Kibar al Ulema. Without that, no Desert Storm. Something is amiss here?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:34 - ID#28594)
GOLD--the process
In the beginning, networks of shops and individuals which will
accept the gold and silver coins as a medium of exchange will be
distinguished by a sign or window sticker.

Just like Visa or American Express cards started to be introduced
in society. Each shop will have the sticker indicating that they
accept the dinar and the dirham.

The transportation of gold and silver will be facilitated by a
network of agencies that will allow money to be sent to any
corner of the world. It will operate by a simple method of
book-keeping. Just like the company Inter-flora makes available
flowers all over world without needing to send the flowers

Equally the gold and silver could be made available in different
parts of the world although only the balance between the
different agencies needs to be physically transported

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:38 - ID#373403)
Dow Jones
Every day there is a reversal after midday. It either starts up and ends down or vica-versa. Why isn't everyone on the same page? Seems that the analysts at the end of the day are always sure of the reasons for the days movements. Why the constant reversal intraday?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:40 - ID#335190)
Turkey @ Bagdad-Saddam
US Deputy Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Marc Grossman and Full,General Joseph Ralston, who visited Turkey said that their visit was due to the geographical importance of Turkey in the crisis. Though animation was observed at the military base in Incirlik, Adana, the government stated that there had not been any demand from US, concerning use of the air base.

Turkey's mediation attempts were met positively by the UN and Iraq. Minister for Foreign Affairs Ismail Cem, who was among the envoys to Bagdad from different countries to find a diplomatic solution to the Gulf crisis, had a 2-hour meeting with Saddam. On his return to Ankara Cem delivered his impression that Saddam was open to proposals and said: "It was my impression that President Saddam was receptive to my concerns, that is to say everybody's concerns, to avoid a military confrontation."

Another outcome of the crisis was experienced in money markets, with foreign exchange and interest rates going up and the Stock Exchange index dropping violently. IMKB ( Istanbul Stock Exchange ) closed the week with a decrease of nearly %16. US$ increased above TL 220 000 and composite interest reached %114.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:45 - ID#28585)
...I look at the day's trend. If it is going negative, I will spin on a dime and change my entire outlook.

That's trading...

I have no allegiance to any philosophy above and beyond the day's trading activity. When gold failed to break over 300 today, I realized immediately that it is a dog ( for now ) .

Buy and hold is for the birds.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:45 - ID#238295)
Farfel: Actualy gold did not do too badly today considering the silver smash and further strength in the greenback -- especially versus the yen.Gold stocks still doing poorly, so I do think bullion has further to go on the downside. But not too much further. And with the reaction to news greatly improved I still maintain that the next major rally ( probably in March ) will take out $300 with great conviction.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:46 - ID#210235)
@Another anti-war protest
Read it here: Richardson's speech in Minnesota disrupted.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:46 - ID#26793)
Heavy bank withdrawals in Kuwait as citizens prepare to flee country

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:51 - ID#280215)
Trader Vic
Thanks for your comments. Personally, I don't day trade and wouldn't get too excited over a breakout/non-breakout on an Hourly chart. I was simply trying to speculate, or come up with a reason why farfel seemed to be so excited about the possibility of gold breaking out today to the upside. It was the only thing I could see at the end of yesterday's trading.

Regarding trading a triangle, I actually like a triangle. I am strictly an options trader and ALWAYS buy a straddle position based on daily/weekly charts. When a triangle forms, Bollinger bands will usually show the volatility decreasing and forming a thinner and thinner band. This is usually a precursor to a decent break out either way. Currently, gold is an excellent example. The decreased volatility makes options cheap ( June 300 puts and calls trading at about 8.00 to 8.20 each, 305 puts and calls at about 6.20 each ) . To me when the triangle forms and the bands get real skinney, this is the perfect spot to buy an option straddle ( and I have already done so ) . May to June options would be best because something's going to happen soon big time in one of the directions, but it still gives you time to wait for it. If you got the guts, you could probably make some big money with now very cheap April calls and puts. But Aprils a little risky because the breakout might not be soon enough for their expiration on 3/13/98.

I stopped trying to actually pick tops and bottoms years ago, though I still do some technical analysis to try and see the odds of a particular direction. Happy trading!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:52 - ID#26793)
@SDRer, All: The Return of the Gold Dinar

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:54 - ID#254269)
Anti-war protests; Apart from the incident in Ohio the other day, when was

the last time there were anti-war protests in the US ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 15:58 - ID#26793)
Your question last night on gold stocks suitable for widows and children. There are three I might suggest: Amax Gold PrB, Battle Mtn. Pref. and Coeur d'Alene Pr. These are convertible preferreds, all pay a hefty dividend and are NYSE listed. Of course their ability to continue dividends are in jeopardy should gold prices not recover. I own the Amax PrB. Terms of convertibility change over time so read all the fine print.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:01 - ID#26793)
More on the Gold Dinar

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:04 - ID#254269)
Dow closed at 8413 (up 38 points or 0.45%), S & P 500 closed at 1034 (up 5.71 points), 30 yr.

bond at 5.861%. Volume on NYSE 580 million shares. NASDAQ volume at 741 million shares. Just another boring day .

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:07 - ID#210235)
Thanks, I will check these out.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:09 - ID#254269)
Clinton's message to Arab nations;

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:11 - ID#252150)
The U.S. Is Definitely Obsessed With Saddam
No matter what he agrees to, the U.S. will use subterfuge & any other nefarious means to refuse his compliance. A lot of this has to do with George Bush's tiled image that 1000's of Iraqi's curse & spit on daily.
If Saddam agrees to all their ridiculous demands, the U.S. will be sitting over there with all the carriers, aircraft, personnel etc which will be costing them many millions daily. They will keep trying to manufacture a pretext to attack.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:16 - ID#222231)

that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control
anybody is to lie to them. When you find an individual is lying to you,
you know that the individual is trying to control you. [...] He's got to
tell you lies in order to continue control, because the second you start
telling anybody close to the truth, you start releasing him and he gets
tougher and tougher to control. So, you can't control somebody without
telling them a bunch of lies. ( ABOUT GOLD )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:18 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.31 This is not a new high. A week ago Friday the reading was 27.91 ounces to buy the Dow.

Early Riser
(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:20 - ID#228275)
Gold dinar>>
Donald: very interesting stuff. Elegant in its simplicity. Why don't
we hear any western politicians saying this stuff. They must be
thinking about this in Indonesia and elsewhere.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:20 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .239 A week ago Friday the reading was .256 ounces

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:22 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 45.72 A week ago Friday the reading was 42.24

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:23 - ID#153102)
@Pete Who are the biggest liars ? The Lawyers .

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:24 - ID#372344)
@ SDR re Dinar BUT don't forget the Dirham...LGB are you listening...
As you probably know this has been discussed in the Arab world for
some time now, the problem appears to be the BIG BOYS the Saudis
et al for now are under US military occupation er.. I mean protection
you get the picture...I posted last month of the terrorist BOMB last year at the US compound there, ( still not solved? ) that killed many Americans in Saudi in attempt to oust them, and even predicted many more to come...
I also mentioned that the Crown Prince, next in line, only half a brother, you're right on, totally anti US was chosen over many maybe 8 of the current King Fahad's natural brothers... that ought to say something to
the US....BTW Saudi Palace intrigues, murder etc is nothing new....
It would take me too long to get into the minutia of the psychological
sociological, and idiological diferences between the West the East
and the Mid-east to properly respond to your question as to the potential use of the Dinar in the Arab world, no doubt the Arab Fundamental Religious cultures would be very fertile ground indeed for said
system....One very important note, under Islamic law the Dinar
is a coin 4.3 grams in weight with Allah is Eternal stamped on one side
and Allah is unique on the other, BUT here is the suprise for SILVER
BUGS the Dirham was also used in conjunction with the Dinar,
It weighs 3 grams Silver and 10 Dirham was equal to 7 Dinars
anynone can see that if such a currency systems is revived, the
price of SILVER would skyrocket since they would be almost equal in value...very interesting....

stay tuned....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:26 - ID#252150)
Clinton's Blatant Arab Propaganda
It boggles the mind to see how totally out of touch with Arab & world opinion that Clinton & his flacks are. Does he think he's adressing the brainwashed & the brain dead at home?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:28 - ID#238295)
Moby Dick
The obsession of Clinton and his associates with Iraq reminds me of the fictional Captain Ahab's obsession with the white whale, Moby Dick. And we all know how Captain Ahab ended up.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:31 - ID#254269)
James; Clinton's propaganda may be for domestic US consumption; it's amazing how all the

domestic problems have been put on backburner last few days.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:31 - ID#26793)
More on the politics of the Gold Dinar movement

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:32 - ID#238295)
Volume in the major gold stocks picked up considerably today. Still not climactic, but getting close methinks. Time to buy again not far away.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:34 - ID#359316)
Gold Dinar
Donald__A 16:01 et al...
'Umar Ibrahim Vadillo
The Return of the Gold Dinar
Common False Objections to Gold
Fascinating... yet I have not seen this discussed before, although
the web site says the gold dinars have been circulated since 1992.
Many things written there could have been said by the regulars
at Kitco. If this takes off throughout the Muslim world, it should lift gold back towards equilibrium ( $600 or more after Veneroso )

To quote:
"The first objection, that there is not enough gold, is based upon a misunderstanding of the price of gold. It assumes that the present
exchange ratio between gold and notes is the exchange ratio that must prevail when the gold is made a medium of exchange. Such
obviously is not the case. To put it simply, lower prices under gold currency will eliminate the necessity for larger sums"...
Which brings to mind ANOTHER's "gold will be repriced once in life, and that will be much more than enough".

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:38 - ID#254269)
Question for more experienced hands. Is there any connection between the
dinar and Indonesia's reluctance to go along with IMF ? I am not sure but isn't there a large muslim population in Indonesia ?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:45 - ID#26793)
Seems to me that I read recently that Indonesia is 80% Muslim.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:48 - ID#26793)
Can someone convert a gold dinar to ounces troy for me?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:49 - ID#344308)
@--chaos and flux----the-be's-amux-us-all------------bet-on-it!

whoo-doggie! who's selling all that silver?
look at gold...don't you just hate it! rake a
bunch of lawns and wash tons of dishes....just
fixing to pull the trigger on some more options...
and they are on sale! is good...
fixing to chase the gold bear at big bear for the
next and the left coast to
wash more dishes..tssm on patrol...corn and
beans down on high export numbers....don't
you just hate it!! get bullish numbers and
the market drops.....

who has their crude-oil calls? they probably jumped
in value today...and will everyday....!BOOM!....just
that quick to dec 2500 crude call would
be worth a fortune...or...they will expire worthless....
time to buy some more, chaos and flux are in town.
and they know saddam insane......cherokee!;

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:49 - ID#335190)
Avalon @ 16:38......Statements made RE: Donalds URL @ 16:38
***dinar and Indonesia's reluctance to go along with IMF ?** WHY NOT EH!

When Iran expelled the Shah it declared itself a Republic, invented assembly government, changed the name of the secret police, printed paper money, continued torture, and sent ambassadors to the United Nations.

The ills of the Islamic community can be listed: nationalism, fixed surname census for taxation, conscription, and dismal government. Yet all the attempts to liberate the enslaved Muslims have not only ended in failure, they have met the cynical disinterest of world media.

Israeli soldiers, using rubber bullets, had deliberately targeted and blinded in one eye over two hundred children between the ages of six months and fifteen years. Hospitals ran out of glass eyes. Yet, worse than that was the fact that Palestinian men sent their children to fight for them. What more shameful bid'a is there than that?

Let us suppose however that Palestine becomes a state, or that Algeria and Chechenya gain independence. They will open a **national bank,** print a currency, and then turn to one of the ***super-banks*** like the *****IMF****** and beg for a loan. It will be granted. Apart from the ....crippling interest...., and assurance that the **'Free Market'** will pass its commodities and land to foreign investors, it will be obliged to dump the very Islamic legal framework it fought for. There are no political solutions. There are no personality politics.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:51 - ID#273112)
Germermans devise more PGM efficient automobile catalyst...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:52 - ID#28585)
I'm still spinning on a dime today.

...I've determined that American mania for Dow stocks is unstoppable. The effects of an Iraqui war are immaterial...Asia is but a little pimple on an elephant's ass...the presidential crisis is as meaningful to the country as the color of asphalt on Highway 95... corporate earnings don't really matter anymore because Americans love pouring cash into the market, independent of what the Dow stocks are earning. Ultimately, who cares if Dow companies make profits or not? You've gotta put the cash somewhere besides boring old savings accounts.

P/E's of 40 and higher are "low" when you consider the mass belief in a New Paradigm.

The country's never been in better shape. Things can only get better.

I've gone long heavily on the DOW to catch the great upswing toward 10,000!!!

It's bound to don't get left behind, suckers!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:54 - ID#372344)
@ Donald ...about 1/10th of an ounce....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:55 - ID#254269)
farfel; Bert Dohmen thinks Dow can go to 8800 or so on his web page.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:56 - ID#372344)
@ Donald ...make that about 1/7th of an ounce....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:58 - ID#288157)
Donald, re: SDRer, All: The Return of the Gold Dinar

Owen Wister, The Virginian had the right of it--there is an aristocracy of merit.
Two of the names, near the top of the list, are Donald and Carl! Ill I'd bet a Gold Dinar on it {:- )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 16:59 - ID#252127)

If it's 4.3 grams, then 4.3/31.103 = 0.138 ounces troy

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:09 - ID#286230)
Ted: C$ now up to about 70.5 and climbing. Hope you didn't turn all your hoard into U$ just yet. Better be quick though because the Quebec thing is about to hit the headlines again and down she will go.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:12 - ID#26793)
Thanks. That is roughly a half sovereign.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:16 - ID#26793)
Should have said Jack et al. Didn't see the other posters right off. It seems like a U.S. 2 1/2 gold piece or so. I was trying to get a general idea of the size.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:23 - ID#26793)
That was a great tip on the Gold Dinar. It was all news to me. It's a good day when someone my age can still learn something new. Thanks. I'm going to pick up a copy of Coin World to see if someone has them for sale.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:24 - ID#335190)
Elected Lackey Canadian Employment Minister to receive orders from IMF & ALL CENTRAL BANKERS-SUNDAY
February 20, 1998
Canadian unemployment has room to fall - minister

LONDON, Feb 20 ( Reuters ) - Canadian employment minister Pierre Pettigrew said on Friday there was some room for downward movement in Canadian unemployment.

"Between an unemployment rate of 8.6 and 8.9 percent, I think there's quite a bit of room for movement," Pettigrew said. "We are going in the right direction, but we still have some way to go."

On Thursday the International Monetary Fund said Canadian unemployment remained a concern. It rose to 8.9 percent in January from 8.6 percent in December, with the uptick blamed mainly on weather conditions.

Pettigrew is in London for a G8 employment conference on Sunday which coincides with a Group of Seven meeting of finance ministers and central bankers this weekend.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:25 - ID#403159)
You finally realized you can't beat ciy hall. You
should consider changing sites and join all us
stock market pundits at The Yahoo chat. The
goldbugs are all born to lose. This is a new
era and stocks always go up. Gold, huh
it's a dam joke. Inflation is dead and so
is gold.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:31 - ID#153102)
If you divided the ounces in a gallon by the ounces in a quart,
would you have the price of milk?

Of course not but that is how the "prices" of gold and silver
were first obtained. I will explain here for silver only.

In the Coinage Act of April, 2, 1792, the dollar was fixed
permanently as the unit of the money of account of the
United States, being 371 1/4 grains of silver.

It was not a new thought when John Maynard Keynes wrote
"There is no more surer, more subtle means of overturning
the existing basis of society than to debauch the coinage"

There were many steps in the overthrow of our Republic and
one of them was to convince the people that there could be a
"price" for money. Silver coins were the "money of account"
and the price of anything meant how much money ( silver or its
gold equivalent ) was required in exchange. The price then of
silver ( the money ) meant how much money was needed to get
money!! This was ludicrous.

Nevertheless the 480 grains in an ounce was divided by the 371 1/4
grains in the dollar of silver and a "price" of 1.29 dollars for an ounce
of silver was the result but for some time, a lower "price" was used.
This is not unlike dividing the ounces in a gallon by the ounces in a
quart to get the price of---what? Milk? blueberries? corn?

As the number of Federal Reserve notes were turned in for silver
coins, and there were not enough coins in the Treasury to be
redeemed with the ever increasing paper claims, the fraud was
about to be exposed with the "price" of silver rising and approaching
that 1 dollar and 29 cent figure. It was feared that when this "price"
was reached, the people would be turning in their paper to get silver to
be melted down and make a profit. The solution then to prevent exposure
of the fraud was to get the silver coins out of circulation so it was
announced that silver was getting "too expensive" to be used as coins.
"Too expensive" in terms of what?

The Vietnamese war distracted our minds as the theft of un-inflatable silver took
beginning in June of 1968. It was withdrawn from banks by the Fed.
and replaced in time with copper clad with nickel TOKENS. Five years
earlier, the coinage of silver had stopped, right after the Tonken Gulf
"incident" that got the carnage going full blast.

Up until that certain day in june of 1968, people could present silver
certificates for silver coins and some got silver coins but to discourage
these lawful claims, the Treasury began exchanging plastic bags
containing granules of silver.

"History shows that the money changers have used every form of abuse,
intrigue, deceit and violent means possible to maintain control over
governments by controlling the money and the issuance of it"
--President James A. Madison

In the Bible, there is plainspoken prohibition of the use of printed paper for money. False weights and measures. The NEW PARADIGM is a big old lie reborn. But now you know why it despises and reviles the religious East & West. Remember Waco.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:34 - ID#273112)
Heavy Hitter
You and the 67 million other suckers who are riding the Dow rocketship up will learn that there are only a few escape pods - for the select few.

The rise in the market is due PURELY to nothing more than lots of money flowing in, chasing stock.

No proportionate wealth has been created! IBM, Microsoft, Intel etc. have not been 30% more productive each year.

Ergo, your true net gain is ZERO, i.e. your are only 'virtually wealthy'. Only those who take OUT their money BEFORE the rest of the deluded masses stampeed will have a net gain.

I offer as proof the following very simple experiment: let each American invested in the stock market sell and TRY to realize their 'virtual wealth'.

We both know they can't. I pity them - living the delusion of wealth only.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:43 - ID#28585)

Amazing Grace, how sweet Thou are...
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see...

Well I once believed the Dow would fall..
I once believed there would be...
A Day of Reckoning in the U.S. dollar...
A financial catastrophe

For years I've believed in gold and silver...
Shunned paper made from a tree
I always felt precious metals would climb
And make me rich as a king..

And now I know deep in my heart
PM's aren't what they're cracked up to be
You can make so much more in the Standard & Poor
So I've gone long on the Dow, you see.

Amazing Grace, how sweet thou are
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:49 - ID#403159)
Delusion !!! huh..... Well if it is why are so many
getting rich and gold sits there. There's "no inflation"
SPUD. No contest. Gold bugs are losing and keep
losing. They are born to lose. I'm in stock market
heaven. Life is good.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:53 - ID#153102)
Not only will people be unable to get their credits out of the Stock Market as it falls in the days of reckoning, they will be unable to get their credits out of the banking system as well. There will be an imposed credit freeze while government decides what to do. Only what they think you need to live will be withdrawable. Just like a government recommended daily allowance of vitamins and nutrition, there will be a daily recommended allowance of credit and to get more, you will have to convince some board or bureaucrat of your need. Then you will know what it signifies when your means of saving is debt.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:55 - ID#372262)
49'ers 4 Sale!

Wonder how many gold dinars it would take to buy up LGB's 49'ers?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:56 - ID#289349)
I played the game and lost. The fundamentals looked good for 8.00+.
What happened? This just dosen't make sense. Good bye easy money, hello equity call. If this was an attempt to "shake" the Silver from weak hands then It's working on my side of town.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 17:57 - ID#26793)
In case you are having chicken for supper tonight you need this info
A Dirham at the time of the Prophet, sall'allahu alaihi wa sallam, could buy a
chicken, and today a chicken could be bought in Britain for the equivalent price of
a Dirham. That means that one thousand four hundred years later inflation is
practically nil. There is no paper currency in the world that could offer such a

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:01 - ID#28585)

Amazing Grace, how sweet Thou are...
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see...

Well I once believed the Dow would fall..
I once believed there would be...
A Day of Reckoning in the U.S. dollar...
A financial catastrophe

For years I've believed in gold and silver...
Shunned paper made from a tree
I always felt precious metals would climb
And make me rich as a king..

And now I know deep in my heart
PM's aren't what they're cracked up to be
You can make so much more in the Standard & Poor
So I've gone long on the Dow, you see.

Amazing Grace, how sweet thou are
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see.

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:04 - ID#273112)
Dialog & Comment
HH: "Delusion !!! huh..... Well if it is why are so many getting rich and gold sits there."

Spud: They only THINK they are rich. As I said, all together now, try and REALIZE that wealth. Cough. Game over. Only a few will ever be able to use their Dow "wealth". The rest will be well raped. Sorry. That's life in the paper lane.

HH: "There's "no inflation" SPUD. No contest."

Spud: Look at a plot of the Dow since 1985. If that exponential rise doesn't indicate inflation, then nothing does. As I said, the Dow now represents the PUREST inflation. You can't get your money out. You are STUCK in it until Dow Armageddon.

HH: "Gold bugs are losing and keep losing. They are born to lose. I'm in stock market heaven. Life is good."

Spud: Time will tell which of us is the looser. Gold has a winning history for +4,000 years. Paper has a very reliable loosing history for about +2,500 years.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:10 - ID#153102)
Sorry for your losses.

I believe the whole objective of disinformation in the gold market is to prevent people from accummulating despite all objective fact. This will prevent all but strong hands from accummulating.

In the silver market, the objective may be to to discourage people from holding silver by rises and falls that convince them to sell on the next rise. This would move the money from weak to strong hands.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:17 - ID#287129)
Something does not compute...
Here is a riddle to ponder:

Less than a month ago silver was shooting up above $7.00/oz and staying there for days at a time, with occasional spikes nearer to $8 than to $7. Meanwhile, silver inventories -- rapidly depleting over the last year -- have shrunk another 10% in an incredibly short time!

Now here's the riddle: How is it possible for the price of silver to drop so much while silver inventories keep on shrinking ( with demand outstripping supply ) ??? I fail to understand this paradox. It simply does not compute. Is it a plot to shake off the little people with margin calls so that the rich boys can hurt those of us who are smart enough to see the wisdom of buying PM?

In my opinion, investing in the stock market at this point in time is riskier than at any time in this century. Perhaps there is something that I'm not seeing clearly; but honestly, this does not compute! To me it seems unbelievable that the powers that be can keep on postponing the inevitable law of supply and demand. I'm interested in intelligent responses to this...or perhaps we are all being kept in the dark while someone ( or some organization ) is buying up all the gold and silver possible at these bargain basement prices.


Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:20 - ID#403159)
Well go out and spend all your gains for the last
10 years. I bet you'll just have a ball. Now go
out and treat yourself to an ice cream. In the
meanwhile my toys just keep getting bigger
and better. When you finish paying for your ice cream
don't forget to spend all that left over change at the
bubble gum machine. Farfel and I are singing the
dow song. Care to join us.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:23 - ID#403159)
Sing it and then well all jump in and sing the DOW
song together. Spud will eventually give in.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:23 - ID#372344)
@ US"all options open for IMF reform" this after Congress may say NO to 18 Bill...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:25 - ID#26793)
Mexican bank failure requires government takeover

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:26 - ID#373346)
Golden Thoughts
Technically speaking: Gold traded in a very narrow 1% range all week. For those looking for a trend in this weeks trading you won't find one. Gold has consolidated very well from it's $25-30 rise from $277.

Fundamentally speaking: The reason for the tight trading range this week was Iraq. Even if a diplomatic solution is reached, on which I doubt it will, the game will still be played. The ME will never see a true solution to their problems. If war, then things will be different than in 1991. Then Russia was silent, Saudi's were more than willing, and Iran was silent. The days ahead are fundametally bullish for gold, and very risky for the balloon in equities.

Summary: Gold will ascend from this trading range after a slow start early next week. This is a false breakout on the Dow!! Heavy Hitter, you've been the contrary indicator. 8- )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:30 - ID#372344)
@ US$ 2 Billion for Russia from World Bank.....hmmmmm

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:34 - ID#225273)
Skip & Two Riddles

May I please take a shot at your two riddles -- silver and the Dow?

I would say that the price of any stock or commodity at a given point is not so much a rational compilation of the fundamental data, but the emotional reaction of investors to the compilation of the fundamental data.

While the sinking inventories have continued since the silver price peak, the bullish emotions of investors have also peaked. I would say that the emotions of silver investors got carried away on the WB announcement and now the $7.70 price is either unsustainable or else the emotions of investors have gotten temporarily carried away to the downside.

As for the Dow, I think that much of technical analysis boils down to the reduction of investor emotions to mathmatical formulae. For instance, when we see a head-and-shoulders pattern forming, we expect prices to fall because from previous experience, we have seen investors react to this pattern in a certain way.

Last week, the Dow put in a Dow Theory bull market confirmation. And like I said at the time, after six months of no new high, the bull probably has a lot of pent up emotion in him now. So I look for the Dow to keep going strong for at least a while longer.

It may not be rational, but it is taking place.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:34 - ID#26793)
You must ask yourself the question "Should I wallpaper my living room with worthless stock certificates that will rot over time or pave my patio with worthless gold bricks that will never rust." I would opt for the worthless gold bricks.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:35 - ID#153102)
The Hand Is Servant To The Mind
The uncertain mind has a weak hand. The doubleminded man is easily made uncertain. His thoughts are like reeds at the will of the wind. He taketh the counsel of his fears. He is easily disarmed. He is easily parted from his goods. He is easily driven to and fro like a sheep or other herding animal. He has no certain thing and rumors, rumors of rumors, loud noises, news, discoveries, and alarms and prognostications make him shake inwardly. All these are used against him.

War and rumors of war are the sorcery of those in high places so we will ask not and shall see not what they do.

Barb Hughes
(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:35 - ID#20783)

The price shot up a bit and out of the woodwork Marched Huge
LOTS, of piggies on their way to market, waiting to be melted & grow up to be COMEX BARS. ( also other forms for commercial users )

The piggies in this case were bags of coins, bars, rounds, silver flatware, tea sets and things granma left to someone that saw cash!

Take care...Barb

Spud Master
(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:37 - ID#273112)
And I thought I wouldn't crack a smile all day...
Heavy Bottle Hitter: "Spud will eventually give in."

Chuckle. When the millions & millions of American pie-in-the-sky stock investors stare in utter, total, stark disbelief at their sudden & unexpected collapsed Dow-bubble, I will be at peace with my tangible, real wealth: gold. I will use it to rebuild my community.

Naturally, we've forgotten the lesson of 1929's bubble - so we'll get to experience it again. Pity. The conartists & shysters have convinced all that the Dow can only go Up & Up forever & ever. That we shall all be wealthy!

Well, it's a good story. It sells well. The only catch is you can't take your money out. You have to believe in the religion of the Dow, forego Earthly pleasures now, for the hope of Dow Paradise at Baby Boomer Retirement Year 2010.

Imagine, 67 million Baby-Boomers all try to sell their stocks at the same time. Will they all get $128/share for Microsoft?


(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:37 - ID#28585)

Amazing Grace, how sweet Thou are...
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see...

Well I once believed the Dow would fall..
I once believed there would be...
A Day of Reckoning in the U.S. dollar...
A financial catastrophe

For years I've believed in gold and silver...
Shunned paper made from a tree
I always felt precious metals would climb
And make me rich as a king..

And now I know deep in my heart
PM's aren't what they're cracked up to be
You can make so much more in the Standard & Poor
So I've gone long on the Dow, you see.

Amazing Grace, how sweet thou are
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I can see.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:38 - ID#238295)
ironies of history
The great 90s bull market began with the attack on Iraq in 1991. Wouldn't it be ironic if a second attack market the beginning of its demise.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:40 - ID#228100)
Skip -- I agree...
The only explanation I have is this: Where else are "investors" going to put their cash? In a CD or 30 year T-Bill that yields only 5%? Hide cash under their mattress? Just as everyone wanted leisure suits twenty years ago, now everyone wants to own stocks.
In the past couple of years, a monkey could have picked just about ANY stocks and made 25%, so they climb aboard! Most of these folks can't even spell "Ponzi scheme".
The stock market "rally" will end when folks cash-out because they have a better place to put their money. It may be a couple of years away ( Year 2000 ) but these prices will quickly come down again!!
The average stock broker has never seen a down market, so they can't exist, right? ; )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:42 - ID#286279)
You can't fool the BIC ( Bureau of Indicator Control. )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:43 - ID#238295)
horse's mouth
From the horses's mouth so to speak:

MER - Washington - 28 January:

 "We are fans of President Clinton and admire his positions and policies concerning Israel. Clinton
is very positive toward Israel and the Jews, and Monica and I are Jews," Monica Lewinsky's lawer
William Ginsburg told Israel's largest newspaper YEDIOT AHARONOT on Monday.

 Adding his own personal comments, Ginsburg further raised the central importance of Israel: "I
am torn because I fear for the fate of the presidency in our democracy, and I don't want the president
to resign. Who knows who will come after Clinton and how he will deal with Israel."
M I D - E A S T R E A L I T I E S
( 202 ) 362-5266, Ext 638 Fax: ( 202 ) 362-6965 MER@MiddleEast.Org

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:44 - ID#288295)
Heavy Hitter & farfel

I'm really glad Bfiler finally got you two guys to see the light. I'm thinking the same thing - dump all this silver and gold stuff before it goes really down the toilet. I don't know, though - the Dow's a little rich for me....think I'll follow my Daffy wife's lead to fame and fortune....


(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:48 - ID#35767)
The anti silver spin is to keep as low as possible those wanting to take delivery after first notice day and thus mitigate the squeeze when the cash market takes over again in March. Right now derivitive paper rules and there are alot of little guys wrong. Look for more WB selling rumors and the bogus digital Photography story and how demand in India is falling. Just like last month. They are frantic.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:50 - ID#401460)
Skip (Something does not compute...)

Nothing computes anymore!
Nothing makes any sense anymore!
Inflation but no Inflation!
Deflation but no Deflation!
Dollar worthless but Gold down!
Gold Study but Inflation gone, we have deflation!
Oil dropping but Gold stable!
Less and Less PMs but Prices down to stable!

President Screws around on Wife, and She said no problem! She is Stable!

Sargent of the Army Sexually Harasses Employee and is Court Martialled, President ask Employees for a BJ that's no Problem!

Hanoi Jane's Husband sponsors a town meeting for Anti War Protester Bill Clintons, Liberal Democrats to promote a WAR - and they are heckled by anti war protesters. 1968 - 1998

Than maybe it all does compute. We may be just looking at the wrong side of things. Maybe Left is Right. Heh, he..h, he..h......

NEWS: UN agrees to let Iraq sell double the amount of OIl - Isnt the UN about to go to WAR with Iraq? DOESNT COMPUTE!


(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:50 - ID#238295)
stock market
Many here are making a bad mistake by repeating again and again the cliche that baby boomer retirement money is the prime force behind the stock boom. This money plays follow the leader. It dries up when stock prices correct and picks up again when the bull resumes. The pros create the main trend and the boomers intensify it.

If Iraq should unexpectedly inflict heavy losses on attacking US planes, the market will be smashed no matter how much money the boomers pour into mutual funds. And gold, of course, would surge even though very few boomers have any interest in the yellow.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:55 - ID#238295)
Catholic Dissent
Catholic Bishop's letter to Billy.

U.S. Bishops' Statement - January 20, 1998

President William Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President,

 We, Bishop Members of Pax Christi-USA and other bishops, are writing to you to express our
profound moral concerns about the U.S.-led sanctions against the people of Iraq. In conscience, we
urge you to call for the immediate lifting of the sanctions by the U.N. Security Council, to end all
U.S. support for these sanctions, and to refrain from any military action in the current dispute.

 In 1993, on the 10th anniversary of our pastoral letter, "The Challenge of Peace," we U.S.
Catholic Bishops issued "The Harvest of Justice is Sown in Peace." In this document, we acknowledged
that "in the aftermath of the Cold War, economic sanctions have become a more common form of
international a means of combating aggression short of military intervention....In each
case [in which
they have been applied] we have consulted closely with the church in the country affected and have
been guided by its judgment."

 In our document, we have enunciated four criteria for the assessment of the morality of the use
of sanctions:

 * Concerns about the limited effectiveness of sanctions and the harms caused to civilian populations
require that comprehensive sanctions be considered only in response to aggression or grave and
ongoing injustice after less coercive measures have been tried and with clear and reasonable conditions
set for their removal.

 * The harm caused by sanctions should be proportionate to the good likely to be achieved; sanctions
should avoid grave and irreversible harm to the civilian population. Therefore, sanctions should be
targeted as much as possible against those directly responsible for the injustice, distinguishing between
the government and the people....Embargoes, when employed, must make provisions for the
fundamental human needs of the civilian population. The denial of basic needs may not be used as a

 * The consent to sanctions by substantial portions of the affected population is morally relevant...

 * Sanctions should always be part of a broader process of diplomacy aimed at finding an effective
solution to the injustice.

We find that after seven years, the sanctions against Iraq violate these criteria.

 Sanctions have taken the lives of well over one million persons, 60% of whom are children
under five years of age. The 1991 bombing campaign destroyed electric, water and sewage plants, as
well as
agricultural, food and medical production facilities. All of these structures continue to be inoperative,
or function at sub-minimal levels, because the sanctions have made it impossible to buy spare parts for
their repair.

 This bombing campaign, together with the total embargo in place since August 1990 was, and is,
an attack against the civilian population of Iraq. Such counter-population warfare has been
unequivocally condemned by the most authoritative teaching body of the Catholic Church, The Second
Vatican Council ( 1962- 1965 ) .

 Independent agencies continue to document the devastating impact sanctions are having on the
civilian population. These include the United Nation's own World Health Organization ( WHO )  and
the Food and
Agriculture Organization ( FAO ) . In 1996, UNICEF reported that 4,500 children were dying
monthly. Leaders of the church in Iraq tell us that sanctions must end. For example, Archbishop
Gabriel Kassab, of the southern region of Iraq, stated: "Epidemics rage, taking away infants and the
sick by the thousands. Those children who survive disease succumb to malnutrition, which stunts their
physical and mental
development. Our situation is unbearable!...We appeal to people of conscience to work to end the
blockade of Iraq...Let it be known that Resolution 986 ( the so-called 'oil-for-food' resolution ) has
to divert world attention from the tragedy, while in some respects aggravating it."

 In fact, only 53% of money received for the sale of oil is available to Iraq. Thirty percent of the
money realized from the oil revenues is paid to Kuwait, and a sizable amount covers various costs of
the U.N. expenses in Iraq. The food and medicine for Iraqi children, and the rest of the civilian
population, from Resolution 986, are constantly delayed, largely because of the extraordinary
complexity of the procedures for the implementation of the resolution.

 Mr. President, whatever the intent of these sanctions, we are compelled by this assessment to
judge them to be a violation of moral teaching, specifically as articulated within the Catholic tradition.
In fact, the sanctions are not only in violation of the teaching of the Catholic Church, but they violate
the human rights of Iraqi people, because they deprive innocent people from food and medicine, basic
elements for normal life. We call for the immediate cessation of sanctions against Iraq.

 We sincerely hope you will give careful consideration to the moral issues we have raised. We
are willing to work with you in trying to find a truly just path to peace in the Middle East.

Sincerely yours,

Juan A. Arzube, Former Auxiliary Bishop of Los Angeles, CA
Victor H. Blake, Bishop of Crooks ton, MN
Joseph M. Breitenbeck, Former Bishop of Grand Rapids, MI
Kevin M. Britt, Auxiliary Bishop of Detroit, MI
Charles A. Buswell, Former Bishop of Pueblo, CO
Charles J. Chaput, OFM Cap, Bishop of Denver, CO
John G. Chedid, Eparch of Our Lady of Lebanon of Los Angeles, CA
Matthew H. Clark, Bishop of Rochester, NY
Patrick R. Cooney, Bishop of Gaylord, MI
Thomas J. Costello, Auxiliary Bishop of Syracuse, NY
Nicholas N. D'Antonio, Auxiliary Bishop of New Orleans, LA
Joseph P. Delaney, Bishop of Fort Worth, TX
Robert W. Donnelly, Auxiliary Bishop of Toledo, OH
Joseph A. Ferrario, Former Bishop of Honolulu, HI
John J. Fitzpatrick, Former Bishop of Brownsville, TX
Patrick F. Flores, Archbishop of San Antonio, TX
Thomas Gunbleton, Auxiliary Bishop of Detroit, MI
Richard C. Hanifen, Bishop of Colorado Springs, CO
Joseph L. Howze, Bishop of Biloxi, MS
William L. Higi, Bishop of Lafayette, IN
James Hoffman, Bishop of Toledo, OH
Howard J. Hubbard, Bishop of Albany, NY
Raymond G. Hunthausen, Former Archbishop of Seattle, WA
William A. Hughes, Former Bishop of Covington, KY
Ibrahim Ibrahim, Bishop Eparch to St. Thomas the Apostle, MI
Joseph L. Imesch, Bishop of Joliet, IL
Raymond A. Lucker, Bishop of New Ulm, MN
Leroy T. Matthiesen, Former Bishop of Amarillo, TX
John E. McCarthy, Bishop of Austin, TX
Lawrence J. McNamara, Bishop of Grand Island, NB
John J. McRaith, Bishop of Owensboro, KY
Dale J. Melczek, Bishop of Gary, IN
Donald W. Montrose, Bishop of Stockton, CA
Francis P. Murphy, Auxiliary Bishop of Baltimore, MD
Michael J. Murphy, Former Bishop of Erie, PA
James D. Niedergeses, Former Bishop of Nashville, TN
William C. Newman, Auxiliary Bishop of Baltimore, MD
Gerald F. O'Keefe, Former Bishop of Davenport, IA
Albert H. Ottenweller, Former Bishop of Steubenville, OH
Michael Pfeifer, OMI, Bishop of San Angelo, TX
Kenneth J. Povish, Former Bishop of Lansing, MI
Francis A. Quinn, Former Bishop of Sacramento, CA
James A. Quinn, Auxiliary Bishop of Cleveland, OH
Peter A. Rosazza, Auxiliary Bishop of Hartford, CT
Walter J. Schoenherr, Former Auxiliary Bishop of Detroit, MI
Richard J. Sklba, Auxiliary Bishop of Milwaukee, WI
John J. Snyder, Bishop of St. Augustine, FL
Joseph M. Sullivan, Auxiliary Bishop of Brooklyn, NY
Walter F. Sullivan, Bishop of Richmond, VA
Kenneth E. Untener, Bishop of Saginaw, MI
Rene A. Valero, Auxiliary Bishop of Brooklyn, NY
Daniel F. Walsh, Bishop of Las Vegas, NV
J. Kendrick Williams, Bishop of Lexington, KY
Gavaino Zavala, Auxiliary Bishop of Los Angeles, CA


(Fri Feb 20 1998 18:56 - ID#153102)
No disinformation campaign could possibly succeed without control over the dispatches and reports from Reuters. Am I to believe that in fifty years of Cold War, Reuters was not used in disinformation campaigns by western intelligence ? None of the agencies disbanded after peace was declared. There was no peace dividend. Campaigning has not ceased. The targets of disinformation are now markets, market makers, investors, consumers, and the mass mind.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:00 - ID#210235)
@Those who see the light
Oh please, kind sirs, before you buy into Microsoft at over 18 times book value won't you please buy my house for a mere 10 times it's book? It's a bargain at twice the price. then you won't have to pay for those intangible assets like goodwill, and I will be very very happy.

In the past 6 months I tried this with two computer programmers, one a PhD engineer. They both bought the Microsoft instead. I still own my little house. They both believe they will get out before the bubble bursts. I remember reading about doctors and other professionals getting cleaned out after the nifty-fifty broke at the end of the go-go 60's.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:00 - ID#372344)
@ ROR, Don't forget the one about the HUGE supply of Silver from mining "Ateroids"......

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:01 - ID#372344)
@ ateroid=asteroid

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:03 - ID#153102)
@Anti-Silver Spin
Disinformation consists not in reporting false facts that can be checked and disputed. Rather it is the spin or significance which the reporter places on the facts as they are reported. Numbers can be safely falsely reported as part of disinformation, but only when there is only one source for the number.

Charles Keeling
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:04 - ID#344225)
I situations like the current Gulf crisis
I have given up long ago on the news that is
found in the mainstream media. Usually
what you find there is instead "MIS-INFORMATION"

Turkey is a friend of the US. Iran has been
making overtures to the US during the past
few months.

Divide and conquer is the name of the game
here. Arabs against Arabs on the ground.
Partion, if it works, is a real smart, safe
way of ending the current problem.

Iran has always wanted the Southern part of
Iraq, & Turkey would like the North. Just
think of it as a buffer between Iraq and
Kuwait, and a TRIPLE buffer buffer between
access to the warm water port that Russia has
always coveted. To get that WWP, Russia
would have to attack three ( 3 ) Arab countries.

Just like Nixon became a hero by opening up
the door to trade with China, perhaps WJC will
likewise become a hero by opening up relations
with IRAN. IMHO, putting three ( 3 ) Arab
countries between Russia and the Persian Gulf
would be a brilliant coup.

Of course, Russia holds the trump card for
stopping this strategy. Will they use it?
Will they use it in time?

I know---the mainstream media will avoid this
possible scenario. They will furnish us the
dis-information needed to mask such a possible
scenario. Iran & Turkey who are waiting in
the wings also have a secret role to play. They
will furnish dis-information.

The mainstream media, in times of crisis, is
spoon fed mis-information by the DOD and
Pentagon. Easier to attend a briefing and
file a report than to dig out the real truth.

For BART: The price of OIL impacts the POG
directly. Please forgive the opinions that I
have stated in this post.


(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:09 - ID#330175)

Barb Hughes
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:12 - ID#20783)

Investors bought GOLD @ $700.00.

Investors bought SILVER @ $45.00.

Investors will buy into the Stock Market when the DOW is over 8400.

What's so mysterious???

Who do you think was playing the card game on Tuesday, with a hand of Silver that folded?

Take care...Barb

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:13 - ID#330175)
This is not a joke.......................on 'another' boring day for GOLD

An old guy approaches the window of the movie theater with a chicken on
his shoulder, and asks for 2 tickets. The girl at the counter wants to
know who
going in with him. He replies, "Well, my pet chicken, of course!" The girl
tells him that he CAN'T take a chicken into the theater, so he goes around
corner, and stuffs the chicken into his pants. He returns to the window,
his ticket and goes in.
Inside the theater, the chicken starts to get hot and begins to squirm, so
man unzips his pants so the chicken can watch the movie. Sitting next to
is Agnes. She elbows Myrtle and whispers, "Myrtle, this man over here has
unzipped his pants!" Myrtle whispers back, "Oh, don't worry about've seen one, you've seen them all." Agnes says, "I
this one's eating my POPCORN!!"

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:13 - ID#403159)
DO THE FOLLOWING: You need to learn to walk with
your hands and start using your feet for prongs. The
charts give a major low for the dow and gold is in a
major blow off. This is where we are. The charts
don't lie.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:26 - ID#403159)
And how is Iraq going to shoot down our planes?
If thet coudn't do it in the gulf war, they sure in
the hell ain't gonna do it now. Unless they get help
and alot of it from their neighbors.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:30 - ID#330175)
HH + Old Gold
There ain't gonna be no gulf war!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:33 - ID#330175)
For James .....+ Ross

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:34 - ID#330175)
CAPER......................Where the hell are------------------

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:39 - ID#222231)
You chicken sh%$t. That was hillarious!

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:41 - ID#403159)
By the time it crashes MS would have split two for one
3 times over and when the crash hits they will still have
plenty of gains. If gold does go up the rally will take you
all the way to $310 and then start to head south.
Producers are just waiting to unload at any price.
Get real and go DOW.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:46 - ID#26669)
Aurator re "Inside the Beltway"
Sorry, I went to bed early last night. "Inside the Beltway" refers to a deviant subculture of Americans who work in the Washington D.C. metro area and who gain all their information about the world from each other. A similar group might be the "Ivory Tower Academics" whom are rumored to still be living on hors d'oerves and stale marxist dielectic deep in the bowels of Herr Klinton's alma mater, Yale University.

Persons of the "Inside the Beltway" tribe can be identified by their congenital absense of grease and dirt under the fingernails, absense of callouses, perfect dental work, socialist politics, disdain for gold ( except for their obligatory gold American Express cards ) , lack of definite sexual preference and ability to inhale vast amounts of alcohol and cocaine while not appearing intoxicated.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:47 - ID#403159)
AGREED. S. H. is playing the same old tune. The
inspectors will soon be arriving once again to
have their chains yanked over and over.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:48 - ID#340459)
Stephen Solarz is the biggest sleazeball, watch CNN now with his lies..

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:55 - ID#372344)
@ Charles Keeling....(no)Iraq "partition"?
To reply directly to your statement about dis-information, in this
case,one should not necessarily blame the news media, since
the words came out of Rafnsangani himself, of course he could be
"in on it", but I doubt it very much....The reason Iran has been
cozying up to the US is that, the US in fact has what is known in military circles, as a dual containment policy, Iraq and Iran, sanctions on both
you probably know of the US rift with the Euro's on the Iranian issue
the point is that the US still considers Iran a terrorist state, and will
not free up the US$ Billions of Iranian assets they still hold....
The fact is that the US is caught in a very serious dilema, with no
way out, it must show stregnth ( bomb ) vs Iraq, ( containment ) but not too
much so as to weaken Iraq's army, and thus possibly dangerously
open up the South for Iran, where then Iran would border Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, bad move trust me.. This is the very reason why Bush did not take him out....In addition you would have civil war in Iraq like Lebanon, with syria and others joining in, all this in the border
of the largest OIL producer....I don't see it... the US is not that dum
or is it? I do agree with your view that Russia has wanted a warm sea port, but more importantly they need access t in order to ship out
Caspean sea OIL via LONG pipelines thru Iraq? maybe Iran? not likely Turkey...Russian statements of BIG WAR should be taken very seriously indeed, they have alot to loose....As far as Nixon opening to China, it was done to counter the evil empire of the USSR, BUT
watch the problems China will very soon pose for the US, then
maybe we'll see if it was such a good idea to continue to trade
and build up China.... The US is looking weaker by the minute.....
Bombing or not.....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:57 - ID#330175)
Watch it buddy~~~~~~~~~~

(Fri Feb 20 1998 19:58 - ID#330175)
Home sweet home.....................................oh yeah,*go gold*

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:00 - ID#340459)
America is but a puppet now to a small master, The Presidency, Govt and Fed are under occupation of
nefarious forces, America as a Leader of free World is the biggest joke outside of US of A

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:05 - ID#393224)
G'day Silverbear.
Next time instead of options/futures--buy little wannabe silver miners. Even $6 Ag is a good price for these guys and there are some real bargains around. Also--they don't expire. IMVVVHO -- this is just a silver correction. We've had many years of low prices and lots of people are taking profits. Commercials heavily short for a quick buck. Be patient.

gert frobe
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:09 - ID#433153)
The PM market is thin. Silver is especially easy to
manipulate by the Big Boys.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:10 - ID#333131)
Tucker makes deal - Hillary target

gert frobe
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:12 - ID#433153)
@ Gold Bull
When Mr. Rothschild? WHEN?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:18 - ID#31876)
"Colin's Financial" Has Picked Up Dinar Gold Movement Story

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:20 - ID#340459)
Movies make War look glorious, it is a terrible terrible thing from the Devil and both sides lose.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:22 - ID#390249)
How the PPT works.
The attached article is a year old but very interesting in hindsight - it explains how the PPT works. I got it off the SI thread where it was posted a few days ago.

The PPT has been very successful so far here in the US. All they have to do is pour more money into the banking system. Can anyone think of a scenario where their efforts would fail? I don't see it.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:23 - ID#261352)
Donald_A....Donald you like CEF...What was that pop in early February?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:24 - ID#300202)
Lookin' at ya everyday Ted-Waitin' day by day to recover my PM losses
& lookin' for encouraging words-won't get em from u though will I?
Those C.B. Fed/Prov jobs look better & better everday for C.B. 12,000
of the existing Civil Service Jobs in Hfx to come here. Fairy tail-NOT.
McLellan will not announce until after erec err election. If u don't
believe, ur just as negative as the rest of the Capers. After me-
"I beeeeeleeeeeeeve!!!!!!"

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:34 - ID#26793)
@Bill El Zebub
That pop was from the silver bullion holdings of CEF.

Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:40 - ID#257234)
Gold in Aspic
Spot future Gold has traded within $2 of the $300 level since Feb. 4. That's nearly three weeks ago. On my weekly bar charts, it's been bouncing its head off the 20-week MA since that time.

Longer-term, since the $414 high in Feb. 1996, Gold has challenged that MA at least 6 times, without success. Right now, that's about all I'm watching. As long as Gold stays below that MA, it ain't no buy.

As many of you will know, I've got a page at my website showing the action at gold bottoms going back to 1976. The 20-week MA has functioned very well in giving the final signal that a tentative Gold "bottom" was indeed for real. I have no doubt it will do so again.

But until it does, I regard Gold as NOT having bottomed. That makes me leery of both Gold and Gold stocks for investment purposes.

I'm simply in "no touchem" mode for Gold right now. There'll be plenty of time to get in when the signal goes. It will either be a price of between $US 300 and 310, or if Gold falls away again, the whole structure may have to be rebuilt.

Patience is a virtue.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:43 - ID#393224)
No gold??

Top 100 financial sites on the web. This could keep you busy for months!!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:44 - ID#57232)
Big News Item -Former Ark Governor to testify against Hillary
All: Jim Guy Tucker, former governor of Arkansas has pleaded guilty to one of three charges, and is now willing to testify against Hillary regarding various land deals such as Castle Grande!
Things are really heating up, even if the 10 year statute of limitations applies to some of the potential charges. Hillary testified that she knew nothing about Castle Grande, so she could go to jail for perjury, if nothing else.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:46 - ID#153102)
The PPT was busy in 1929. System was swamped by illiquidity despite all PPT. Too many black holes, too big, too fast. $100 trillion in derivatives have the potential of making multi-trillion dollar black holes. Hell, Congress couldn't even vote the debt ceiling up fast enough in those circumstances.

If there is a need to defend the greenback with interest rate hikes, the deficit will skyrocket. Interest is not optional. If interest payments are not made on time, every time, it's called default. That another word for "credit death". Preventing it will mean for you and me premature Tax Death.

PPT only works in a rising market, expanding economy scenario, where there are credit worthy borrowers. Look at personal debt figures in the US. Consider PPT will not work if it is pushing on a string. All other major economies are stalled or receding. If the US stalls, there is nowhere to go but deflation and down. That's why they have taken a tiger by the tail in ever commencing management of it. They cannot ever let go. But, tigers can still bite you even if you have them by the tail.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:47 - ID#57232)
Posted already!
Carl -- Good call - didn't see your post - really hot item!

Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:48 - ID#257234)
Interesting, just posted and added a URL. When I went to post to the group, the server took severe exception and rejected my post. Took out the URL and posted no problems.

Not quite sure what the problem is since I see many other postings, one after mine, which include URLs.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:50 - ID#288295)
Bill Buckler

Bill - where's the 20 week moving average now?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:50 - ID#300202)
@Ted-Not a Joke Either
Ronald Reagan advising U.S. Secret Service going out to feed the squirrels on the lawn. Turns out they were rats. C/R-Completely Reliable

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:56 - ID#153102)
It couldn't happen unless Rafsanjani were in on it.
Do you think he can't have TWO FACES ? The US may let him appear to his own domestic stooges as the Liberator of the Souther Iraqi Shiites. Why not ? That's what friends are for.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:58 - ID#57232)
Bill Buckler -- are you still there?
Can you tell us what you know about the new debt ceiling rules? Could 1 trillion in new debt be added to cover SEAsian losses without disclosure? What are those new rulings that circumvent what is lesft of Gramm-Rudman?
Thanks in advance!

Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 20 1998 20:58 - ID#257234)
Gold 20 week MA
Silverbaron. According to my software ( SuperCharts ) , as of Feb 20, the 20 week MA was at $US 300.36. Pretty close, eh!

Lurker 777
(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:00 - ID#317247)
Heavy Hitter, Silverbaron, Farfel
I have Puts @ $290, & @ $280 and with all the negative comments on gold today I am worried that the bottom might be in. I need gold to tank by 3/13/98 so I can change direction and buy the physical. Quit trashing gold or I might have to sell my shorts at a loss and go long. Puetz I need you!

Bill Buckler site:

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:02 - ID#57232)
Had same problem with url
Bill Buckler: I just had same problem. I backed up, clicked on 'post comment immediately' and the url went through. A new bug, I guess.

Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:05 - ID#257234)
URL Bug - And 20 Week MA
Thanks JTF. I thought I might have inadvertently added an "href=" to the URL. I've been coding all morning ( here in Oz ) . Further on the 20 Week MA, I'm not sure the last time it actually went below $US 300. Don't know if it did in 1985 or not, but that's probably the most recent candidate. Anyone out there know for sure?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:07 - ID#398105)
Old Gold.................the penny drops...............

"We are fans of President Clinton and admire his positions and
policies concerning Israel. Clinton is very positive toward Israel and the Jews, and Monica and I are Jews," Monica Lewinsky's lawer
William Ginsburg told Israel's largest newspaper YEDIOT AHARONOT on


To repeat again.........

Clinton would not have "a' problem, if he did not have "A" problem.

What a set up, got him literally by the "balls" - and his heart and mind does follow.........

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:08 - ID#222231)
Bill Gates meets Divine Brown on the gold coast.
bill gates meets hugh grant at a hollywood party. They are
talking and bill says: "i've seen some great pictures of
divine brown lately, I sure would like to get together with

Hugh replies: "well bill, you know ... Ever since our
incident, her price has skyrocketed, she's charging a
small fortune."

Bill ( with a chuckle ) , "hugh, money's no object to me.
What's her number?" So, hugh gives bill her number and
bill sets up a date.

They meet & after they finish, bill is lying there in
ecstasy, mumbling "god I know why you chose the
name divine." To which she replies: "thank you bill ... And
now I know how you chose the name ... Microsoft."

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:13 - ID#335190)
National Association Manufacturers (NAM) @ Want $18 billion-Lower interest rates-Lower Dollar-Jobs??
February 20, 1998
U.S. manufacturers brace for lost trade with Asia

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - U.S. manufacturers worried about a loss of sales abroad due to Asian financial crises said Friday the Federal Reserve should lower interest rates to keep the economy strong and take some strength out of the dollar.

"The strength of the U.S. dollar makes trade between Asia and the United States all the more difficult, accentuated by interest rates that remain too high," National Association of Manufacturers PresidentJerry Jasinowski said.

But Lewis said the trade imbalance is less of a problem in today's $8 trillion economy than it was in the $4 trillion economy that existed in the 1980s.

The manufacturers' group also urged Congress to approve President Clinton's request for $18 billion for the International Monetary Fund to help replenish coffers depleted by multibillion-dollar bailouts for Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea.

Jasinowski said the IMF programs were the best way to restore stability in the region.

"The case for lower interest rates is a strong one: We have low inflation, an exchange rate that remains too high and slowing growth," Jasinowski said. "Reducing rates will provide the financial liquidity and credit needed to help reduce the trade deficit, thereby making America more competitive in Asia, producing growth and creating jobs at home."

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:13 - ID#257114)
Standout Oil Stock -- Foreland.
For anyone interested in a good domestic oil E&P company check out Foreland NASD:FORL. This company's fundamentals look so promising.
Doing well so far this year compared to rest of oil group. The stock price looks like it's ready to be put in the hands of momentum players.
This is my analysis based on my 2 years of following this company. I like it along with CAU. Any other thoughts?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:21 - ID#372344)
@ Heard on the Street...US$...Gold....Iraq...Rubin...AG...
Gold down 1.70 held up rather well again under great pressure from the US$ up 2 full yens today, up vs Mark SF & Pound....we may be stalled
here for a while until the US Bombing or lack thereof.....Interesting news
for Mutual Funds Investors, for the first time in a long time , there was
an actual "outflow" of funds to the tune of about $500 Milll....

Something is BIG "up" in the treasury dept, heard a prediction tonite
that Rubin would RESIGN over BJ's minimum wage increase, and
I thought it was because of his Zit....AG on the other hand has a "cold"
and would not attend the G7? hmmm....News is He will loose his cold
by tuesday just in time to beg er.. I mean appear before Congress....

mozel...I don't believe at this point in time that Raf is "in on it"....
not to say it couldn't happen some point down the road,
as if and when the US would need to further divide, in order
to conquer....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:23 - ID#153102)
The extent of credit control required by PPT and the ambitions of other federal agencies to use credit control information for "law-enforcement" are in conflict with the value of privacy. Americans are closer to demanding gold and silver coin out of Congress than we think.

"That advice might be fine, if the very pattern of abuses Mr. Safire
catalogs wasn't moving us rapidly toward the ballyhooed "cashless

Already, the old $500 and $1,000 bills are nowhere to be found, and
trying to withdraw more than $5,000 from their own savings accounts to
a used car or other large-ticket item find themselves being grilled by
their own government-regulated bankers -- amateur surrogates for the DEA

and IRS -- like so many money-laundering drug-dealers." Vin S.

Mr. Safire's referred to advice: pay cash.

Safire means printed paper. But, cash is actually gold and silver coin. Friends, Safire is one small step away from demanding gold and silver coin from the mint. The solidarity of the proponents of the New Paradigm is going to shatter on the rock of privacy.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:30 - ID#153102)
Such information as the Lewinsky affair is of no value to people who think like you once it is public.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:34 - ID#238295)
Tzadeak: In an earlier posting I too pointed out that gold's reaction to bad news has improved vastly since last fall. I regard reaction to news as the most important single indicator of a market's technical health or lack of it. Gold's better ( but still not great ) reaction to news tells me the smart money is accumulating bullion and shares ON WEAKNESS. The foundations for a big upmove are being laid, but more work needs to be done before we are ready for takeoff.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:35 - ID#374211)
@ CBS "US Bombs Iraq" this a practice run...

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:37 - ID#57232)
Partition Iraq -- Not all in favor outside Iraq
Here is one article that comments on partitioning of Iraq, but suggests problems for neighboring countries.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:43 - ID#217268)
Another's Posts
My vote is to give "Another" CARTE BLANCHE on Kitco.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:44 - ID#348169)
@ The Captain!
Bill - I don't know how many other's here have pointed out what you stated in your 20:40, ( viz: Date: Fri Feb 20 1998 20:40
Bill Buckler ( Gold in Aspic ) ID#257234:
...Spot future Gold has traded within $2 of the
$300 level since Feb. 4. That's nearly three
weeks ago. ..." ) , but I have certainly been watching with interest this VERY tight range that gold has been in for last few weeks. I anticipate that a break out of this range should be a big one in either direction! ( And as we slipped a little today the scenario might just play out momentarily! )

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:50 - ID#238295)
false breakouts
Mooney: We do get false breakouts sometimes. I see a false downside breakout followed by a quick reversal to the upside. First smash the longs and then the shorts. I am patiently waiting to buy the PM stocks once bullion does break down. The window of opportunity will not last long.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:52 - ID#153102)
Whatif the BIS website has the digits 08 transposed, so the $valuation of the bank's gold is actually $280 per oz. Or if it has been changed, but the website not updated ?

BIS, as has been said, cannot allow the $ market price of its capital to fall below the official price.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:53 - ID#318118)
@ All
Does anyone know of a site that contains factual information on gold movement from the 1920's to at least the mid thirties. If I recall correctly someone here posted sometime ago that gold moved up during
the depression. I would like to see for myself.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 21:58 - ID#233199)
@Bill Buckler
Where is your website? Please....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:06 - ID#374211)
@ Old Gold.....
I agree with analysis, I would just add that smart money is
and has been accumulating....I have a strong feeling that bad news
for Financials will mean just that, and further will be very good news for the price of Gold ....BTW stock "bottom picking" has been a life long
challenge for me, and I've got the "burn" marks to prove it.....
I'm in coins, major Gold ( Silver ) stocks about 35%, and when I hear the
train a comin I'll jump on some more, ride for a while, then switch
to medium, ride them for a while, and finally also love to ride the
juniors, they are the funnest to ride, since one is doing so
with extra profits....I'm certain there will be no shortage of
recomendations on them when Gold is around $500.......

Quixotic 1
(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:08 - ID#48200)
They were not rats, they were from the press !!
Caper @ 20:50
They were not rats, they were from the press !!!

Gold for the good guys...GMJ

(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:19 - ID#267276)
Strange happenings
Well, Wall Street Week made fun of gold again, and today the Juastice Dept announced a lawsuit against some major oil companies. It seems to me that they are trying hard to keep the public from buying into real things like gold and oil. Most gold companies have had some kind of negative report in the past year and oil is said to stay cheap. I have been looking into Union Pasific Resourses, a large natural gas and oil company with vast reserves in U.S. and Canada. I read that Royal Gold was doing exploration on UPRs properties for gold and diamonds. Does anyone have any information on this ? Thanks.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:21 - ID#374211)
@ Indonesia postpones "currency board" in favor of IMF....

(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:27 - ID#215208)
Here's the latest. I cheated a little and added the closing spot prices as the last data point ( all the rest is London PM closing data ) .

Silver - Wild! A good trader's dream ( which I'm not ) . If you ignore the spike which I have affectionately named "Warren's Finger", silver is still generally following the steep upward channel. However, the channel is so wide, and the moves so fast, that even tactical bears can make a killing. I have heard opinions that a reasonable bottom for this move down is around 6.40. This chart would say that 6.05 to 6.10 is still a distinct possibility.

Gold - Oh yes, gold. Well, it unfortunately seems that gold is still content to remain in its long-term downward-trending channel, abeit creeping slowly down, following close to the upper channel boundary. OK, confess. Some of you are wondering where the bottom of this channel is, just on the slim chance that ....., OK I won't mention it. Oh well, the bottom is around 265.

Platinum - Platinum made a steep run at breaking out of its long term downward-trending channel. But once again, the invisible shield turned it back. Sure looks to me like it is heading down to test the previous low. And where is the channel bottom if it reaches it? Today the channel bottom is around 325. I sold all my platinum ( luckily, for once, very close to the high ) , 2/3 of my platinum stock, and am short futures. It may be a little late to ask for advice, but if any of you wizened platinum gurus have any words of wisdom, I have open ears.

Palladium - As I said before, I gave up trying to put a channel around palladium. The trend line, however, is clearly evident. I also have identified another feature. Let's call it the "palladium ceiling". The trend line intersects the palladium ceiling around the Ides of March. Irresistable force striking an immovable object? Well, if platinum tanks, most likely, barring Russian scare tactics, palladium will follow.

Its a wild and woolly world. Happy trades.

Bill Buckler
(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:29 - ID#257234)
Privateer's Address
SWP1 I tried posting my URL but the server at Bart's discussion group rejected the posting. I'll try again.

The Privateer's URL is

The Gold Pages URL is

John B__A
(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:42 - ID#77133)
Silver is at a Buffett Test
Today both Hecla and Coure D'Elene traded down to 5 1/2 and 10 7/16 respectively. This is about the lowest level they could be bought immediately after the Buffett announcement. At a minimum this should be a solid ( if temporary ) resistance point for a good trading buy up to 6+ and 11+ respectively. Any comments.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 22:49 - ID#286230)
John B: United Keno ( UKH---TSE ) did the same and it is now down to Pre Buffett levels --86 cents. Has the back up of actually getting into production again this year but relatively risky

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:03 - ID#403159)
Gold can't and will not go to $265. The BIS
will not let it go there. $280 gold was the
bottom. It has come and gone. You will never
see gold again at $280 in your lifetime. The gold
bull is here and is about to kick in. February is always
a bad month for commodities and this month is almost
history. We might get 1 more test down at $280 and
then watch out. Off to the races.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:17 - ID#225273)
JohnB_A & CDE

I looked at the CDE chart. There is a huge gap from $10.00 down to $9.25. There's no doubt the stock will try and fill that gap. Hopefully, it won't get it closed all the way and then we'll be off to the races, so to speak.

The Preacher

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:17 - ID#335190)
Marble/Cement Bullets @ Weapons of the past/future----Slingshots
February 20, 1998
Indonesian official orders anti-riot slingshots

JAKARTA, Feb 21 ( Reuters ) - An Indonesian official in Central Java has ordered 1,000 slingshots and 40,000 cement balls to deal with rioters in his area, the Jakarta Post reported on Saturday.

"It would be better to repulse rioters by way of pelting them with cement marbles than by spraying them with hot lead bullets," army colonel H.M. Zakir was quoted as saying.

"The weapons may be used only after rioters turn violent and each marble shot during unrest is to be accounted for," he added.

Military authorities in some areas have said rioters could be shot after a series of disturbances over rising food prices have erupted across the archipelago of 200 million people. So far, five deaths have been reported.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:22 - ID#261352)
@ Heavy Hitter ....Why are you calling a boton after all your negative waves?
No more negative waves!Please?

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:24 - ID#403159)
Los Angeles loses more people in 1 hour
in homicides. L.A. makes Indonisia riots look
like a party.

Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:29 - ID#261352)
@ last post for the night...EB,LGB,Ted,et al this gold/paper money
juxstapositioning will be a close call to say the least.I
hope we kick your asses from here to forever!!!!Love B.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:30 - ID#222231)
Dialogue between Gold Producers and Central bankers
I can't recall if this was posted previously. This is why I believe gold will trade within a narrow range for some time. Opinions wanted!

1998 Annual Meeting of the
World Economic Forum,
Gold Related Sessions on Davos

Dialogue between Gold Producers and
Central Bankers

During the meetings of the World Economic
Forum at Davos, Switzerland, from January
28-February 1, gold producers engaged leading
central bankers in a high-level dialogue on the
role of gold as a reserve asset. One of these
meetings was a private session attended by
Thabo Mbeki, Executive Deputy President of
South Africa. There were two further gold-related
sessions on the official programme: first, a
working dinner, chaired by Bobby Godsell,
Chairman of Anglogold; secondly, a panel
discussion on the question: "Central banks: What
Future Challenges?". Speakers included Andrew
Crockett, General Manager of the Bank for
International Settlements, James Cross, Deputy
Governor of the South African Reserve Bank,
Peter Munk, Chairman of Barrick Gold, and
Jean-Claude Trichet, Governor of the Banque de

Council Role

During the course of 1997, Council management
worked with WEF officials to bring gold onto the
1998 meeting agenda, to devise the programme
and to attract speakers and participants to the
various sessions. Robert Pringle, Head of the
Councils Public Policy Centre, participated
closely in all aspects of the programme and its
preparation, and spoke on behalf of gold
producers at the private session with leading
central bankers.

Producer Concerns Outlined

At these sessions, and particularly in the private
session ( where attendance was confined almost
exclusively to Chairmen and CEOs of gold mining
companies and leading central bankers ) , the
producers expressed their concerns at the way
in which lack of clarity about central bank
policies and intentions had led to unjustified
fears of large-scale and continuing gold sales,
opening the door to speculative activity that
further depressed the price. They pointed out
that central bankers and governments had from
time to time made statements damaging to gold
as a reserve asset.

They wished to draw the attention of central
bankers to the ways in which such statements
could undermine the market, and severely affect
the market valuation of the central banks gold

Gold producers, like central bankers, were
interested in gold from a long-term perspective.
Yet at the moment the market was largely
dominated by the actions of short-term
speculators which carried prices far away from
underlying market fundamentals.

Key Points

The main points to emerge from the series of
meetings were as follows:

The central bankers acknowledged that
they recognised a community of interest
with gold-producing countries in avoiding a
depressed gold price.

The French and German central banks made
clear that they would not be selling any
gold. The Swiss may sell a limited amount
of gold, to help finance the Solidarity Fund,
though this requires approval by the
population in referenda not only at the
Federal level but in each canton.

In leading EU countries, notably France,
Germany and Italy, gold is seen as
supporting the credibility of the currency.
Switzerland shares the pro-gold atmosphere
and culture of its larger neighbours.

All the gold reserves of the member states
participating in European Monetary Union
will form part of the external reserves of
the euro, Europes new currency scheduled
to be launched next year. The ECB will
issue guidelines ( possibly secret ) on the
management of that part left with national
central banks.

The new European Central Bank ( ECB ) will
inherit the traditional attitudes of its
constituent countries towards gold and
their view that gold supports the credibility
of the currency. Thus gold would form part
of the reserves of the ECB.

Central bankers pointed out that the
reduction in inflation had meant that gold
had lost much of its attraction as a hedge
against inflation. Also, there was pressure
from governments to increase the rate of
return on external reserves. However, gold
producers made clear they were not asking
for any protection from normal market
fluctuations - and certainly did not seek a
return to high inflation. They sought merely
an end to damaging uncertainty.

Greater Central Bank Understanding

As a direct result of the interchange, both formal
and informal, in Davos, the leading central
bankers of Europe do now understand more about
gold and the implications of their policies and
statements, not only for gold producers and the
market, but also for the economies of countries
that have significant gold mining sectors. They
were impressed by the participation of Mr Mbeki
and the eloquent plea he made on behalf of the
whole of southern Africa and other developing

This can only help to improve market sentiment.
As the Executive Deputy President of South
Africa stated afterwards:

"I believe the meeting will produce conditions
which militate against the speculative selling of
gold" ( Financial Times ) .

Mr Mbeki added that he had not expected explicit
promises from the central bankers, and he did
not get them. "But I think they understood and I
can only hope they respond".

Mr Godsell commented afterwards that the
meetings had been "the most intense and
specific exchange in recent history" between
producers and central banks:

"Everything we heard was fundamentally
encouraging, and the producers voices were

Ongoing Contacts

The Council continues actively to pursue further
contacts with central banks and other official
holders. WGC staff members have recently
visited the Bank for International Settlements
( BIS ) , which manages gold holdings on behalf of
several central banks ( as well as having some
gold of its own ) , and the European Monetary
Institute ( EMI ) . The EMI is the precursor of the
European central Bank to be formed later this

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:31 - ID#335190)
Heavy Hitter @ 23:24
PRIDE: is the L.A. Standard.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:32 - ID#269245)
my 2 cents...
You know... I made a killing ( in paper ) in high tech stocks last spring/summer. Now I fear stocks completely. I took those gains and put them into PM's - not so much as an investment for gain, but an investment for survival, just "in case." I also have invested in cash. My current investments are divided in this way: 1/3 PM's, 1/3 Dollars ( US ) , and 1/3 cars,etc. I will not sell my cash until there is a serious turn in the United States' global economic stature. If ( when ) this happens, I will sell the cash for Euro's, Yen, PM's, oil, or tuna - as the case may be. Meanwhile, I am concentraiting on getting rid of ( selling ) every car/motorcycle/guitar that I can possibly part with. I look to buy them all back at a fraction of the price once the recession ( depression ) finally hits. The Asian condition is a world condition, and I will be prepared when we really start feeling it these next couple years. I will never leave myself "goldless," although I will be taking advantage of gold's ups and downs. Physical gold is my "savings account." I have determined that I can live quite comfortably for the next 75 years, supporting a small family, if I can accumulate about 10,000 ounces of the stuff - then I retire. I only need to double my current savings about 8 times!
After the '29 crash, it took the Dow 26 years to recover back to its previous peak, ~500. It then took 11 years to double ( ~1000 ) , 17 years of stagnation, and has finally doubled three times in the past 15 years! If history truly resembles itself, there are things one can learn. It is important to remember, however,that the dollar was more or less tied to the value of gold until about 26 years ago. This throws a serious wrench in things. Since the anhillation of gold backing, the Dow is up 8x, yet the value of the US Dollar is down 8x ( compared to gold ) ! Also, the definition of the DJIA has evolved over the years. This is where the biggest weakness in my analysis lies - I still don't understand ( frustration ) ! I do think part of the answer lies in P/E ratios. Whatever I am missing, it will only makes sense to me if it is explained in units of a physical asset ( ie troy ounces, oil barrels, gallons of water, etc. ) , not Dollars, not bonds, not stock certificates ( paper ) .
I bet people were pretty scared of paper during those first few years after the crash. I will probably try my luck in high-tech, commodities, and recycling industries this time around. I will never, ever go into debt again - one is too vulnerable in this condition.
My intuition tells me that before the Y2K something is going to happen. Although American blind confidence seems to be the dominant driving market force currently, I feel there are obsticles ahead of us that will seriously rock the boat ( which seems to be flying instead of floating right now... ) . Obvious things to watch: Y2K, ailing economies, major war, the Euro, and of course competing central banks. Any others I missed?
So, I guess I have used up my share of space for the week!


Bill El Zebub
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:33 - ID#261352)
@ Heavy Hitter 23:22 botton=bottom....PS you're included in my 23:29!
Love ya!

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:35 - ID#403159)
Changed my mind. Bill, why I'm I here? I guess
you don't know me. I am in P.M.'s extremely
heavy and what I posted today is just the
opposite of my investing. Farfel is the same
situation. Were just joking around. Bad days
can due that to ya. Don't want to offend our
gold bug buddies. GO GOLD and DOWN
with THE DOW.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:41 - ID#210235)
@y2k conference in Beirut
and we think we're not prepared . . . .

John B__A
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:42 - ID#77133)
CDE (Preacher and Selby)
Your comments are well taken. The gap is the Buffett gap. CDE opened at 10 from 8 7/8 after the previous evening's Buffett disclosure. CDE at 10 ( and Hecla at 5 1/2 ) should be the lowest price for now if the Buffett buy is to be given any credit. Buffett is a long-term investor, not a trader, particularly after taking physical delivery. He should be worth a small gap - but perhaps not.

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:43 - ID#288157)
A. Goose, All--
Fred Barnes just predicated that Rubin, will resign!

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:45 - ID#339212)
@ Preacher

CDE has a debt/equity of 0.56. I am looking for more diversification in silver stocks, but 0.56 scares me.

I bought PRU with $0 debt. Any good reason for someone to choose CDE over PRU?

(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:48 - ID#252127)

Its best to quit when your ahead.

Heavy Hitter
(Fri Feb 20 1998 23:56 - ID#403159)
I was flipping through Classic car for sale ads in a
nationwide publication. They are giving these cars
away. Just goes to show where all the money is
going. Directly in the stock market and the public
is in with both hands. Also have a relative who
is a FOR REAL contrary indicator. Just bought
Cisco and is one of his first purchases. He said he
purchased the stock because it will always go up.
Doesn't know anything about what he bought only
because the stock goes up. Thinks gold is going to
keep going down. This is why W.B. is in silver.
The public are not good investors. Day of reckoning
is close.