Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:03 - ID#340459)
@Poorboys, I dont envy your name or your disposition, Sleep and lie low, That is your fate..

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:10 - ID#393224)
G'day ANOTHER. What happened to the original ANOTHER? Do you work for him ? Your information is interesting, but your use of English grammar and syntax is totally different.

G'day SDRer. Thanks for the great info about Dinar etc. I was using historic mintage info about Arabic coinage. At this time of day-- when N.Americans are 8 'drinking hours' ahead of us--your posts stand out like a beacon!!! Cheers, Nick.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:13 - ID#252150)
Since your handle is plural, do you have multiple personalities?
If so they are all fu**ed up.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:16 - ID#37867)
Re: Astological Predictions
Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:19 - ID#401460)


You wrote:
If there was a God & justice prevailed, then you would be right.

Unfortunately, History proves that I am right.

The US is headed for troubled times, it has forgotten the principles on which it
was founded. Without getting into a lengthy discussion re: the US and Muslim Old testament common background - which is not even needed, it is easy enough to just some it up by saying the US has lost its ability to morally lead its people and the world. Every major power in history has eventually withered when it deviated from the guiding principles of the universe. Call them what you will but they exist my friend. They govern people and nations.

The US lost its way in Viet Nam and it is on the verge of doing it again. The US has not defined a clear moral reason for this attack. The attack may be legally justified as stated by the President; however, you can not tell the world we need a war for a legal reason, just as you cant ask people to send their sons to die for a legal reason. These are mans laws not Gods.

The US President and his Administration are totally focused on US law alone, they have lost all knowledge of the principles of justice and Morality that have governed the world for centuries.

Justice, whos justice and for whom? and in what time frame? Justice does exist. We may be long gone when Gods Justice prevails, but it does exist and it will prevail.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:19 - ID#37867)
As... = Astrological
See above

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:22 - ID#20783)

Thank you--enjoyed the historic info~~~~

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:23 - ID#330175)
1st Intermission...................for the GOLD
Czech Repub. 0 Russia 0

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:24 - ID#24135)
CAM details
For Silver Baron
Received CAM ( consolidated Afrcan Mines ) Annual Report.
Nat Assets as of Oct 1997 totaled 1.107 bill Rand
on 466 mill shares.... for 2.37R/share.
65% 0f Assets comprise Capital Alliance Holds ( which I
assume they plan to sell off ) and JCI ( which I assume
is part of stock Kebble will vote to try stave off
Anglo takeover Western Areas and Joel... but this
should be resolved in a few weeks ) . They also hold
DDeeps, Randgold, Randgold resources, and a lot of Wit
Nigel preference shares.
They own the Australia holding company ( Weston ) which
has interests in Laverton, continental, and Platgold.
Since valuation, assets would have risen maybe 10%.
A new valuation will come out soon in Business Day.
Thus a conservative valuation would make nav about
2.7 rands/share maybe a bit more. If JCI breaks up,
and say 30 - 35 Rand is realized on break up value,
the NAV of CAM would approach 3.0.
It closed 1.34 on friday.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:26 - ID#347447)
James @astrology
James, I thank you for thinking I am in any way intelligent. As for my use of astrology, it is not an act. If you have followed my Kitco and golden eagle posts, you will find some startling work. I even startle myself on occasion. As for your disbelief in astrology, that is merely because you do not know anything about it. Or, probably, you know just enough to qualify as misinformed, and have made your assessment based on the nonsense and inferior stuff you have come in contact with.
Astrologers are like lawyers. Most of them are full of sh*t, but the really good ones are great to have around when you need a fresh perspective in a consultation. It may be wise to reserve judgement concerning something you know little about, no matter what other people tell you, or what you think you have observed. Astrology is a very deep and difficult art. As Newton once said to a scoffer, when you have practiced it as long as I have you may then be qualified to criticize it. But please, keep saying things like "Sheller is intelligent." I like that.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:29 - ID#347447)
Flattery will get you nowhere. I refer you to my previous post to James. At least he was kinder in his personal description of me ( ;- )

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:31 - ID#330175)
Sheller is intelligent

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:32 - ID#347447)
Bless You

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:34 - ID#22882)
An excellent gold look into

RICHMONT MINES ( ric ) Toronto, Montreal and the Amex.
P/CF=5.2, P/E=22.5. Company just reported its sixth consecutive profitable year. Management is excellent and company is growing on its own ACCOMPLISHMENTS, not BS.
Making money is no small feat when gold is in the dumps, but RIC has done it.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:36 - ID#37867)
Mr. Sheller
Sir: Please excuse me. My snippet was not directed to you. Just my personal feelings about astrology. If you have sucess congratulations and more of the same.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:36 - ID#252150)
Highrise@Your last paragraph summed it all up
"We may all be long gone when God's justice prevails". Unless you're a religious fanatic, then you had better have a good time right in the here & now.
I sent a letter to our local newspaper that was published under: Dignified death:

Karla Tucker went to her death with more peace & dignity than most of her collective executors will.

From George Bush down, most of them will leave this world the way they entered it--toothless,helpless and mewling, full of pain & fear.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:37 - ID#330175)
I'd like to hang around and trade insults but there is some good-------
HOCKEY to watch~~~~~~~~~~Go Czechs!!---russians SUK

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:39 - ID#347447)
Away from Kitco Back at Kitco
POORBOYS: You're right - Kant keep from Kitco. Actually, I've been away from Kitco for the past 2 weeks 'cause I've been working on a Private Placement Offering Memorandum, and all the assorted documents that go along with it. As I just emailed EB, It's a real challenge trying to tell your corporate story to investors in a document while the regulators want you to put warnings on everything you say. ( "Management appears to be sane, but there can be no assurances that this is so, or that such a condition will persist" ) . Why don't they just force us to say "Handling this document will give you Acromegaly and Cancer" and just be done with it?
But man does not live by Offering Documents alone...hence a little visit with the gang here. I see not much has changed.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:40 - ID#347447)
Unsnippet accepted
Thank you Goldhawk.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:40 - ID#340459)
@Mike Sheller, An Indian astrologer predicts sharp rise in POG in March, Do you concur with this, ?
Mike your answer awaited.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:43 - ID#22882)
For Richmont release

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:45 - ID#347447)
As many here know, I have been watching Saturn's upcoming conjunction with NYSE Moon in early March ( exact around the 11th and 12th, for general positive activity for silver. Perhaps what is sauce for the goose will be sauce for the gander as well. It would be about time that gold and silver moved in tandem, wouldn't it? See my previous Astrological Investor at the Gold Digest section of golden eagle ( Bart's interpretation ) for astro aspects for IMF and Greenspan, etc, for March.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:51 - ID#252150)
Sheller@I'm sure you've heard this question a hundred times before.
When the early Egytians invented astrology they were looking @ .ooooo1% or less of the universe. How can you still use an outdated model?
For me, it's religion & if it works for you...great.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:52 - ID#347447)
Forgive me if this seems like a cop-out, but that Saturn conjunction with NYSE Moon around early/mid March could be a trough as well. I'm holding in there for a renewed spike up, but I suspect either way will be ACTION.
Perhaps a hedged option position will catch it coming OR going. One position goes worthless, while the other zooms and brings in the profit. If ever there was a time to ambush volatility in silver, I think it will be this March.
Eyes getting bleary. Too much 'puter screen. The 20 incher needs a rest.
Good Nite/Day to All

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:53 - ID#37867)
Mr. Sheller
Don't know if this is the time and place--but since things are a bit slow right now -could you briefly tell me what a New York Stock Ex. moon is? TIA

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:55 - ID#255284)
ALways talks about the birds, this fella, and 7000 Tonnes o' gold...

Evening all

I posted this earlier and received no comment, would appreciate some thoughts on what this implies, we are not talking a little stash of gold here, we are talking Venerooso's magic short number. 7000 metric tonnes for lease, now...Crsus!!

Mike Sheller has made an outstanding contribution to this thread, Goldhawk, I don't pretend to understand, nor even believe in astrology. Just look at results...

Where I come from, a lot of the Goldhawks end up as Roadkill..

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:56 - ID#393224)
James and Goldhawk
RE: Mike Sheller
You guys should read back for six months or so and read Mike Sheller's posts. As far as predictions go, he is in the top echelon of the Kitco Hall of Fame. I do not, personally, believe in Astrology. Mike Sheller is, however, much more than an Astrologer. He is a first rate technical analyst with a 'feel' for the markets. He is not always correct. ( Mike--I'm still waitin' for that goddam copper rhino, mate!! ) . Mike is one of the most saavy and perceptive posters on this site. Guys,before you criticise, do your homework. Following Mike's posts would have made you heaps of dough!!!

Besides all that, he did my horriblescope and said that I am "..good with the ladies..." Good onyer, Mike!!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:58 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller
And who warns people in writing about the regulators, one of the most dishonest, useless group of dirtbags on the planet?

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:59 - ID#24135)
Can you picture 30 zillion cans of beer at Fort Knox??
For Silverbaron
How do I find Rebecca whatziz forecasts ?? I can cope with a
seven day lag. MY lag is about a year and a half.
For Glenn
Your posts get better every day.
For tolerant
I knew of no plan to bottle Tequila here. Its pretty cheap as
I recall.
For Salty
Starting serious work on chicken standard this morning. How
about the Beer Standard?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 00:59 - ID#153102)
Double on.
Might makes legal. Not lawful.

The Law of Beasts is that the big and the strong of a species dominate
the small and the weak of the same species. The Law between beasts
of different species is the law of the jungle.

Martial law is the Law of Beasts among men. International law, the law of nations, is martial law.

From the period 1860-65, the civil authority of the States has been subordinated by the military power of the federal government according to the law of nations, but outside the compact known as the Constitution. Becasue all the forms of government remained unchanged in outward appearance, the fundamental change was not apparent. But, now in the fullness of time, the consequences of being ruled by a body of men protected by the military power of the federal government emerge. If you listened you heard Secretary Cohen recently use the phrase Color of Law. Color of Law is all the authority possessed by the United States Government. The phrase refers to the official acts of a government or official done without authority of law. It includes, but is not limited to, acts done under the law martial. Our leaders do not know or submit to any law but the law martial.

The law martial is, as Lord Hale said, no law. It is rule by men with power. Sub Deo et Lege is the principle of the pre-eminence of civil authority, the rule of law over all men, even the King, and under a written Constitution, the whole of government. The purpose of true, not martial, law is the same as the purpose stated in our Constitution: to establish justice, that condition under which disputes and controversies are settled by due process, procedures and principles universally acknowledged as distinguishing right from wrong and protecting all rights to life, liberty, and security of property equally, in our tradition, the common law.

HighRise has it right.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:02 - ID#393224)
Beer standard?? I'll drink to that!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:05 - ID#374211)
@ SDRer...Dinar/Dirham...
I see your point about the 7 to 10 ratio for weights, however my
point was that since there is no set value for either, and that value
apparently changes daily from the URL you provided tonite, I thought
I would use the "chicken" standard and have come up with this :

A Canadian Chicken sized for a family is about $6.00, this then
represents 3 grams of Silver x 9=28 grams or 1 ounce of Silver
therefore $6x9=$54.00 so Silver should be trading around $50 today
under the "chicken" Islamic standard and Gold 10x? ( at least ) should
be trading at least $500 today?.....

Maybe WB does know something?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:05 - ID#31868)
The good news is they bleed too.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:06 - ID#37867)
Once again my off the cuff remark was not directed to Mr, Sheller
It was and is my feelings about astrology. I'm willing to listen and my attempts are not to insult. If they were it would have been. As far as his record on Kitco they may be the best on this site. He is certainly an intelligent one. I've certainly read others here who were far less civil and quicker to take offense to opionions made by others.

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:07 - ID#24135)
Horror Story
For TZ
Haile Sallasie ( ?? ) ( Lion of Judah ) was no cannibal for gods
sake. His namesake Haile Sallasie Miriam ( ?? ) who ruled Ethiopia
a while back and is now under the protection of Robert Mugabe
in Zimbabwe ( another horror story ) was probably accused of that
along with about every thing else you can think of. Mobutu and
Amin were also accused I think.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:07 - ID#347447)
I guess you're going to keep me awake now. It's a fair question tho. I wouldn't be too sure the Egyptians were the first to use astrology. There are different variants of astrological systems, but the essential esoteric basis of astrology lies in the understanding that the Sun, Moon, planets, etc, are representatives in the surrounding cosmic envoronment of nonphysical faculties of the human self ( or spirit, soul, etc, whatever one wishes to call it ) . That self, if you go "in" far enough, and beyond the things that keep us "human" and tied to earthly existence, is ultimately "God" ( or, again, whatever one wishes to call "that." ) So to know the symbolic references of the celestial features is to know who and what we are. The planets are projections of our inner selves. They are reflections of our inner faculties - for instance Mars is the masculine, or positive faculty within the psychic duality of human beings. Venus represents a projection of the Negative, passive, or Female side. Yin and Yang, Positive Negative, etc. Jupiter represents the mental faculty of Rightness, Saturn that of Reason. And so on. This of course is the most sublime esoteric level of interpretation. At a lower level, Saturn may represent related things of the earth, like older Men, authority figures, mines and structures, etc. Mars may stand in symbolically for War, aggression, iron,steel, weaponry, etc. The psychological, spiritual, and mundane levels on which these symbols act and reflect are verey rich and varied. This all goes to make up the universal machine which exteriorizes the thoughts of humanity as Destiny. As we think and act, so is our Karma, and this is brought to us by the clockwork of the universe. Mankind has always been ingenious in the way he has gotten so much out of so little. Hence the early practitioners of astrology knew more about what they were doing than perhaps many modern day astrologers. There is so much to say, forgive me if I seem to be rambling. It's a subject as BIG as the question WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY? That we should all be asking about this amazing existence.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:10 - ID#330175)
2nd intermission
Czech Repub 0 Russia 0

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:11 - ID#401460)

Unless you're a religious fanatic, then you had better have a good time right in the here & now.

Please clarify what you mean by this statement. Are you saying religious fanatics are already having a good time? I f so, you may be right.

Karla Tucker went to her death with more peace & dignity than most of her collective executors will.

You are right again and why do you think this is true.


PS: We all better have a clear view and correct understanding of the Religious, Moral, and ethical influences on history if we are going to truly understand the cycles and patterns of history and Gold.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:12 - ID#374211)
@ convert to US$ Silver about $35 Gold $350?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:14 - ID#330175)
Mike can't be right about everything ( grin thing )

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:16 - ID#330175) I scroll back in time
G'Day Mate!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:17 - ID#252150)
Sheller@I appreciate your replies,
but you confirm my belief that astrology is more a religion than a science. I have a deep belief...I believe I'll have another drink.

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:18 - ID#24135)
fellow CB (Chicken Bank) members
For TZ and Salty
Hey wait a minute .. This is the second qualitative description
of a chicken that Ive received. Please get serious.
IF you look in the FINE PRINT on your chicken you may find
a PRICE in the monetary unit of your choice PER unit of WEIGHT
IE a price per pound or per KILO.
We may be dealing here with the WORLDS reserves and I think
we should excercise a bit more care.
Also Please note how this fits in PERFECTLY with the ROOSTER
BOND concept.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:22 - ID#374211)
@ James, remember the words of the Great Barry White"too much of anything is no good for you baibe"

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:23 - ID#347447)
No Problem. Simply put, the NYSE Moon is the position of the Moon in the horoscope of the New York Stock Exchange on the Date and time of its founding. A horoscope is simply a "snapshot" of the positions of the celestial features ( zodiac points, planets, Sun, Moon, etc, Etc, all in relation to the 360 degree Zodiac circle. This part of it is pure Science. So if I know the day and time that a corporation or institution was founded, or incorporated, or when a person was born, or nation founded, I can run out a horoscope on a computer. I would be using and looking at the same data that NASA uses to get men to the moon and ships to the planets and stars. So, for instance, on the Day and moment and geographical coordinates of the founding of the NYSE ( 8:52 am May 17, 1792, NYC, 074w00,40N43 ) the Moon was at 19 degrees Aries. All the other planets, etc, are there on that "map" as well. This snapshot is frozen in time and valid for the life of the entity in question. It is up to the astrologer to interpret what it all means, and how the continually cycling ( transiting ) planets affect and relate ( aspect ) to those various degrees and bodies, with all
their qualities, symbolism, etc, which must be learned and understood by the astrologer, even while the whole world laughs and disbelieves. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:24 - ID#330175)
Just Asking
Anyone 'out there' have any Soma???????????????????????

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:24 - ID#403277)
Further note on Haille Selassie
John Disney, Tzadeak: Haille Selassie is Amharic for "Power of the Trinity". His real name was Tefari, and he was a Ras ( Crown Prince ) of Ethiopia. Hence "Ras Tefari". He is considered a religious figure as powerful as Jesus Christ by a sect of Jamaicans who call themselves the Rastifarians. Americans like their music.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:26 - ID#347447)
Actually, you could say astrology is an ART, that is BASED on science. Like the Practice of Medicine. 'cept I don't know of any astrologers who have killed thier clients ( ;- ) .

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:28 - ID#403277)
Here's an enigma for you..
James: Those folks who believe in an afterlife are sure in for a surprise when they die.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:28 - ID#393224)
Chicken/beer standard(bagaaaaaaaach--hic!!)
Theodore. How come it's second period and the bloody ice-skatin' is on here???

Folks--we need some scientific method here.
Chicken price in pounds/kilograms in unit of currency??? How about ounces of gold per chook!! Also one standard name brand beer ( 375 ml in Oz ) priced in gold??US$$???. Then we can drink the research and report our findings!!! Comments?? C'mon Auracious--organize this thing!!!

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:30 - ID#347447)
To Sleep, perchance to Dreeeeeem
Good nite/day all - this time for real. Got to get back to the Offering documents tomorrow. Man does not live by Faith alone...sometimes a little "bread" helps.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:30 - ID#252127)
Chicken standard my ass

What about the little buggers that carry the flu?

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:32 - ID#20783)
Mike Sheller

Please, help me out here...

What do your indicators say about Silver Wed. Feb. 25th at Handy close??

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:32 - ID#37867)
Mr. Sheller
Thank you for your repley.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:33 - ID#257136)
AR Branch of F.C.R.B.
We here in Arkansas are in FINE shape!! We'uns got duh bestus reserves of 99.9999 white, whachacallum chikens dere be on duh planut!

Sorry ah kain't giv ol' b.j. de kredut fer r prosparutee.

Ah'm gona bah mo stock in duh Federal Chiken Resurve Bayank dis cumin munday!
Thanks fer the tip John Disney!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:34 - ID#374211)
@ Nick@C, If you're doing beer standard, we'd better get Ted in here ....
and calculate the "reefer" standard using Alcpulco Gold as
the basis for comparisson, although I haven't figured out
how to keep track of the results when they'll continously be
going up in smoke.....

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:37 - ID#153102)
Everybody bleeds.
Our people perish for lack of knowledge.
Before Lincoln, no American President even needed a guard.
None died from violence while in office.
Lincoln ? After Lincoln ? Those who live ( rule ) by the sword also die by the sword.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:37 - ID#347447)
Sorry BARB, got no silver indications for that day. Real specific, aintcha. The real reason for this PS is that my new Astrological Investor is up at the Gold digest section of you-know-where. It's a "PENNIES FROM HEAVEN" feature, so get out your loose change jars, you're all gonna make some money, gang!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:38 - ID#330175)
Remember 1968
Czech 1 russia 0---yesssssssssssssss!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:39 - ID#252150)
Highrise@Who will burn in Hell.
George Bush & his ilk will wake up in cold sweats realizing that they have violated at least several of the the 10 commandants.
While I in no way condone the murders that Karla Tucker commited, I really believe that her faith in God was genuine. I cannot say the same for Bush et al.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:39 - ID#347447)
Oh, yes, the URL doesn't work, but a little adjusting, such as changing the word golden to gold, might do the trick.

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:42 - ID#20783)
Mike Sheller

Thanks anyway...Could make some real money if you could answer my question!!

Oh well...back to the ole' ways,

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:44 - ID#330175)
I'll gladly test any reefer 'out there' but I sure as hell won't exhale~~

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:45 - ID#401460)

A country that does not go into war with passion will loose. The warriors have to believe in the Cause for engagement. They have to believe in their Country, its Leader - their Commander and Chief. They have to be willing to follow him into death itself.

This is why the laws of engagement and warfare are what they are. They have developed and have been established by the documentation of both successful and disastrous military engagements over the history of warfare.

It was said that, In the foxhole trenches of WWI not one atheist could be found.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:47 - ID#393224)
Salty and Crusty
C'mon guys. You know the Brobdingnagians ( giants up north ) couldn't organize a lay in a hen house--so you'all are gonna have to do it!!

Chicken--frozen or fresh?? Kilos or pounds?? $US/Oz au??

Beer--name brand or cheapo?? Metric or antiquated Yank?? $$$ or precious??

Set some parameters here guys, so we can make a valid comparison!!

The best part will be eatin' and drinkin' the parameters!!!

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:48 - ID#250297)
I don't quite get it.
JAMES: Forgive me if I'm not understanding you correctly. Could you kindly clarify for me exactly which of the 10 Commandments you feel George Bush violated with regard to Carla Fay Tucker?
Also: "While I in no way condone the murders that Karla Tucker commited, I really believe that her faith in God was genuine." So what?

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:53 - ID#24135)
Info on Haile S.
For Ryter
Thanks for that tidbit.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 01:56 - ID#401460)

George Bush may pay a price for that decision, I don't know. I think he may have had just cause again, "legally" to deny her pardon; his biggest problem is were he was when all of this was taking place and the appearance of not caring.

However, it is my understanding that once she lost her final appeal to the court, George Bushs stay of execution would have only have been good for a few days or weeks. I am not sure if he could give her a full pardon?


(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:00 - ID#255284)
See Naked Chicks--- 7,000 tonnes of gold passes without comment...
G'day ol buddy..You and  still "good friends" ;- ) )

Okkee, so noone cares about my 7,000 tonnes of gold, you wanna chickens? you gonna get chickens. Us folk use the damned metric system, have done a check on the chickens at the supermarket, have to correct my earlier figure, I am comfortable with **$NZ6.00 per kilo**, plucked, scrubbed, gutted ( giblets sold separately for pte ) plastic bagged and fresh...


This reminds me of a promotion in a bar in NZ's Capital, Wellington a year or two ago.. This was the same bar who's "goldfish eating" competition drew criticism from the S P C A. This time, someone had a brain wave to use frozen chickens as bowling balls. You pays a few dollars, you lob a few chickens down a bowling lane, everyone has a few laughs except the chicken,..

Of course, the City mission said it was a waste of chickens, they could be given to the hungry. Anyway the promotions went:

"See naked chicks..."

"We pluck'em. You chuck 'em"

I'd really prefer to talk about 7000 tonnes of gold, guys & gals, 7000 tonnes..

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:01 - ID#330175)

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:03 - ID#22882)
Highrise, James......Repent your sins

Come to the Right Reverend Farfel's "Church of the Paper Spittoon". Donations of gold in any form accepted.
Come see the light and free your wretched souls from the yellow evil.
Amen, Amen, Hallelujah.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:04 - ID#153102)
This fellow ANOTHER seems to be saying that London contracts for gold are trading around the world as the currency for oil instead of the US$.

This is a real challenge to the status of the $ as reserve currency.

Because it means Europe and Japan, for example, can purchase oil without $ reserves. Mark or Yen plus LME gold contract equal to the $ price of oil replace $ in oil transactions. It gives the Arabs scope to increase the POO, to hold OPEC together, and maybe get the US out of their back yard.

This would leave the $ as world settlement currency for derivatives contracts. manufactured goods and grain contracts, and as a banking reserve currency. But removing the dollar as the settlement currency for oil would create an instant, huge abundance of $ without a use. It would open the $ to the same currency attack waged on the won.

What think ye of these thoughts of mine ? And how does the ABX forward sales to USG fit in here ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:10 - ID#252150)
Thou shall not kill
but that not apply to your religion.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:10 - ID#31868)
You can also stub your toe in the library.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:13 - ID#393224)
Blame Auracious!!!
Auracious has sent me this book--"Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay aaaaand this household has fallen apart!!! Me missus has expropriated the book and I haven't seen her for a week ( hardly ) except when she tells me all the good bits!! The house is a mess, I'm starvin' to death and it is like a morgue in here except for the occasional laugh and heehaa at human stupidity.

SHE says "Quote 'em this one!!" so here goes!!

Bernard of Treves

"The life of this philosopher is a remarkable instance of talent and perseverance misapplied. In the search of his chimera nothing could daunt him. Repeated disappointment never diminished his hopes; and from the age of fourteen to that of eighty-five he was incessantly employed among the drugs and furnaces of his laboratory, wasting his life with the view of prolonging it, and reducing himself to beggary in the hopes of growing rich."

and this

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

Time to do more 'research'. Off to the fridge!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:20 - ID#255284)


I see you like Swift. As you know, he was a contemporary of Newton, ( whom Nature's law obeys ) and kept a diary during the South Sea Bubble that I have not yet found, and wish to read. Another time I shall post one of his pamphlets "Letter to the Tradespeople, Shop-keepers, Farmers and Common People in General of Ireland" wherein he warns all of the above about the debauching of the currency replacing copper with base metals...

The Bubble

Oh! may some western tempest sweep
These locusts whom our fruits have fed,
That plague, directors, to the deep,
Driven from the South Sea to the Red!

May he, whom Natures law obey,
We lifts the poor, and sinks the proud,
Quiet the raging of the sea,
And still the madness of the crows!

But never shall our isle have rest,
Till those devouring swine run down,
( The devils leaving the possest )
And headlong in the waters drown.

The nation then too late will find,
Computing all their cost and trouble,
Directors promises but wind,
South Sea at best, a mighty bubble.

Jonathan Swift

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:21 - ID#153102)
I thought we were on the same page, but maybe not.
The whole western world lost its faith in God, almost, in the trenches of WWI. After 1919, it was a saying that God is on the side of the Big Battalions.
Is it the case that you don't mind law martial so long as the Presidnet is a man you admire ? For martial qualities ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:24 - ID#401460)


As the US continues to follow the current tack; you are right as is Another & Mozel, Gold will begin to replace the US$ - if it has not already done so with respect to Oil.

History is History, Fact is Fact - they even try to rewrite History, but it remains the truth. What has happen has happened; whether we know it or believe it does not matter. The Koran, The Bible, and other historical chronicles of mans history is mankinds software. What was written 3000 years ago is still true to day, the only problem man has is that every 30 years a new generation has to relearn what has already happened. Unfortunately, they usually repeat the same mistakes. 1938, 1968. & 1998 Facts are Facts.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:27 - ID#255284)
Stone the crows!!! -- mad crow disease???
"And still the madness of the crowds."

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:35 - ID#31868)
It would appear that there is a very large segment of the population in the USA that is going back to God/Church This has been trending this way for several years now.

However my friend, I fear one group of zealots as much as the next. It would seem that anyone with a mind wishing to seek out and explore the universe of the mind or physical surroundings has been the one hounded throughout the centuries.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:37 - ID#252150)
Your wacky theories deserve some consideration. See--I can be as
opaque & as paranoid as you.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:38 - ID#31868)
goodness, almost forgot!!!
CZECH REPUBLIC! Great victory, cheers to ya.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:38 - ID#153102)
Those who never enter a library run no risk of stubbing a toe there. But, then also, no true knowledge cometh from books written by liars and deceivers. And so measure all books by scripture.

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:40 - ID#20783)
tolerant 1

What about the educated folks listening to Deepak Chopra?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:42 - ID#393224)
The Mississippi Scheme
Some in clandestine companies combine;
Erect new stocks to trade beyond the line;
With air and empty names beguile the town,
And raise new credits first, then cry 'em down;
Divide the empty nothing into shares,
And set the crowd together by the ears.---Defoe.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:45 - ID#252150)
Tolerant@If it was'nt for your few missives
of truth & intelligence, I would give up on this site completely.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:46 - ID#31868)
There is a great amount of violence in scripture. In fact, there appears to be a great deal of everything in scripture.

Nothing in this life is certain, nothing. That having been said. I say this, our species has spent far too much time killing/murdering itself in the name of all manner of thoughts, whether they be of our species or otherwise.

What a waste.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:50 - ID#153102)
Your 7000 tons of gold post interest me a lot.

Question to all interested: Was the 1997 decline in POG actually a decline in the $. An increase in the price of oil on the other side ? And aren't ABX forward sales to USG seen properly as currency for use to defend POG which it has failed to do ?

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:52 - ID#250297)
JAMES: The 6th Commandment as it exists in its original Hebrew is: "Thou shalt not MURDER." The difference in Hebrew between the word for 'Murder' and the word for 'Kill' is as different as it is in English. It is analagous to using 'sexual intercourse' and 'rape' interchangeably. ( I know some radical femminists would like to see that distinction dropped, but that is a matter for another discussion. ) It's sad that such an egregious mistranslation has found its way into common usage, thereby corrupting the intent of what would otherwse be a simple and uambiguous statement. What Carla Fay Tucker did was MURDER. What the state did to her was to KILL her. The contextual difference is enormous. By the way, as long as we're discussing Biblical texts, you might enjoy knowing that the ONLY law attributed to God that appears in all five Books of Moses ( Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy ) is that murderers be put to death by the hand of man. In fact, it is the first law in Genesis given by God to Noah upon emerging from the Ark. Since you're an agnostic, citing that is, for you, neither here nor there, but for the millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims who take the ancient Hebrew Bible seriously, it is of profound significance.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:56 - ID#31868)
Barb Hughs
I am unfamiliar with the example. However, education gets individuals pretty pieces of paper which some consider a license to instruct the population as to the correct manner and fashion of existing.

As Woody Allen said, "whats the difference between, I think, therefore I am, and there goes Edna with a Saxophone."

Respect your elders. True, 'Tis a good, prudent and polite thing.

However, I most respectfully submit the following question.

How old is an idiot?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:58 - ID#252150)
Stradmaster@When the end comes.
I have no doubt that you will be comfortable with God's decision.
I really envy you.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 02:59 - ID#401460)

 don't mind law martial so long as the President is a man you admire ? For martial qualities ?

I am sorry I dont understand your question - law martial, for martial qualities.
What does this mean?

It doesnt matter what I like or dislike. It is a matter of cause and affect. The laws of Nature, God, the Universe whatever you choose to call it that is what controls. Supply and Demand - you need Oil for your tanks someone will be glad to sell it to you.

I was referring to the guy in the foxhole not the entire western world!

God on the side of the Big Battalions - I am sorry, this makes no sense at all.
Does this imply that God is on the side of Nuclear weapons since 1945?
I said nothing about on whose side God is. It is a know fact that IN COMBAT it is hard to find an atheist - thats all.

My personal opinion of President Clinton is immaterial, I am just concerned that He is not exhibiting the same skill in international politics that he has shown in national politics. He has potentially another Viet Nam developing.

The very thing he use to demonstrate against.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:01 - ID#31868)
Woody Allen also said, " I don't know for sure if there is a Heaven, but I hope they can break a twenty."

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:05 - ID#31868)
Good night all.
One last shot of Cheer to both the Czech and Russian teams. An outstanding game. Gulp...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:09 - ID#252150)
You are by far the most religious person posting here. All the best.
The truth is hard to come by.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:09 - ID#153102)
There are so many certain things in this life that I wonder what planet you live on and what world you inhabit that you could say nothing is certain in this life.

Examine your beliefs. You live in a universe of laws that you are blind to or ignorant of though you live by them. Apples never fly up from trees on windless days. Every man must have his daily bread or die.

Each man to his own scripture. But, of the tree shall be the fruit and if it be bitter, shall we say it is a good tree ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:13 - ID#347457)
Yeeees, we finaly did it!!!
OK Oris, it took us some fourty years but we finally beat Russians in Olympic finals. Yes! For us it was always more than the game. We were trying to beat them at least in hockey - could not kick their butts out of our country for fifty years!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:14 - ID#252150)
Mozel@Tolerant has a quality that you,are severely lackng in......

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:15 - ID#20783)

I shall now retire to my hammock and contemplate the age of an idiot or an ignoramus and maybe even a nincompoop. Thnxs

Barb Hughes
(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:15 - ID#20783)

I shall now retire to my hammock and contemplate the age of an idiot or an ignoramus and maybe even a nincompoop. Thnxs

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:19 - ID#252150)
No doubt---You will be comfortable in your ignorance.

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:27 - ID#250297)
Something for late night at Kitco.
JAMES: In case you forgot, you're the one who brought up the 6th Commandment! I was just clearing up a common misconception for you. Since you first used it as your arguement, perhaps you might like to address my statement.
As it happens, I am, after much thought and study, quite at peace with the concept of a Death Penalty for a whole variety of reasons. That God may or may not have provided humanity with a guidebook for moral behaviour adds only a small fraction to the equation. Nonetheless, the unequivocal clarity of the moral imperative provided in Biblical text does bolster my position IF one chooses to approach the discussion from that angle.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:27 - ID#153102)
@StradMaster @HighRise
@StradMaster And murder is putting to death of the innocent.

@HighRise Where shall be found the innocent soldier ? Is it fear of death or fear of God's judgement after death that makes men in foxholes believers ?

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:30 - ID#250297)
MOZEL: And your point is...?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:32 - ID#401460)

Good Question. Both, I would imagine?

If I get there before you I will ask and e-mail you back with all of the answers.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:34 - ID#393224)
Miro and Oris
Congrats, mates, from down under. Your pride is shared by many. Sports doesn't begin to make up for past wrongs--but it gives you a good feeling nevertheless. Cheers, Nick.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:39 - ID#153102)
"I am just concerned that He is not exhibiting the same skill in
international politics that he has shown in national politics. He has
potentially another Viet Nam developing."

It is a risk. Those who live ( rule ) by the sword shall ( deserve to ) die by the sword. As men and nations.

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:53 - ID#250297)
MOZEL: I think I figured it out. You are agreeing with me. Sorry if I appeared confrontational. Thanks.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 03:58 - ID#153102)
It seemed to me your explanation of the proper translation of that commandment omitted to say what is murder. And so I interposed what I think is murder in the law of God as recorded in those scriptures you refered to.
Governors and soldiers murder when they put the innocent to death. They are not exempt from law. Sub Deo et Lege. Hence, the principle for due process of law that it is better that some guilty go free than the innocent be wrongly convicted. For else, our governors be murderers and justice is not established.

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:07 - ID#250297)
We agree
MOZEL: Right. Murder is immoral killing, just as rape is immoral sexual intercourse.

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:21 - ID#250297)
Turnin' into a pumpkin
Would love to continue this discussion but it's getting late. Night all...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:21 - ID#153102)
@Tolerant1 On Church Going and fear of zealots
None at the head of wolf packs are shepherds, but wolves in shephard's clothing. In or out of churches.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:36 - ID#266105)
@Loon Dance

Fog pressed down, I rose alone;
Too dark to see then heard the moan.
There they were beneath the fog,
Just joining, out beyond the log.

Loons encircling, crying;
Withering wails let flying;
Unwordly calls past dying;
This they do, no lying.

Ever see such a thing?
But once, I've heard, loons dance and sing.
Campmate arises, now its come dawn;
The loons a-calling, then they were gone.
Were they there? Dancing for me;
The loons cry crazed from fog then flee.

Ol' Joe Bashu said it was luck to've seen
The loon dance of dead when June's all of green.
Said it real plain, strange as Strong Lake--
He'd something to give yet nothing to take.

There is no more unearthly song
Than a northwoods tune of winters long.
Sent me a note awhile ago;
Funny thing is, he's dead, Ol' Joe.
"Wish to warn wisely: Let alone twice true."
He'd seen'm dance, that's how I knew.
See, the wind let loons get poor Joe to agree;
Now a song chases secrets best left to be.

When did I hear, Indian know
Loons cry crazed to The Windigo.
It whispers-- Come. Burn your feet.
I should've run but kept my seat.
Think I'm foolin', well, it's true-
I turned and met The Manitou.

As the end of the wind, the silent fear;
He howls-- But Once! Yet the howl stays here.
So when loons come calling, let them be;
One trebled twice then spoke in three.
Now I just fade away where the echoes flew,
Calling Ol' Joe for a dance we do.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:40 - ID#228283)
God and gold.....FAITES-vous une promesse.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 04:57 - ID#153102)
And as no one expresses interest in examining my thoughts on POG & POO, I bid you goodnight as well, wondering what shall be done to keep down the POO in $. And thinking Saddam must soon choose whether he will be the leader of the Arab world and the nemesis of Israel and die a hero, or live a while longer as an obedient boy. For, Iraqi oil must flow again soon and in abundance for $ or the $ must fall relative to other paper. And soon after fall relative to gold as well. And I think, looking into the dream mind of the NWO, that I see this oil flowing through a Turkish pipeline. And Russia can be paid. And Europe can be paid. But will the Euro become a reality ? And, what shall all this mean to the East ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 05:12 - ID#266105)

Where's the women with NO UNDERWEAR!!!??!!?!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 06:03 - ID#266105)
@chicken standard

Upon the best advice encountered to date, hang'm in your

(Sun Feb 22 1998 06:11 - ID#252150)
One of these nights you will wake up in a sweat & wonder why.
You are a decent indivual & will have a real problem countenancing the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi's. Until then ...sweet dreams.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 06:27 - ID#252150)
Not A Clue
After many beers and a few glasses of wine & rum & coke I go to bed at least as ignorant as last night. My saving grace is that at least I admit I don't know anything. However, I will never countenance the deaths of innocent people. I may not have as pleasant a life as Stradmaster & others, but at least I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning & not be totally repelled. The deaths of innocent people will eventually eat your guts out.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 06:54 - ID#266105)
@wild thing, I think you move me

Nothing added, nothing taken away.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 07:11 - ID#252150)
Strad--Nothing But Sadness ,Nothing But Pain
nothing but emptiness calls out your name. Strad, if your kids were in a playground with a bunch of Iraqi kids & they were all well fed & happy, would you be able to tell the difference by their physical appearance. I think not.What makes you thimk that your God determined that your kids should have such a good life , but the Iraqi kids should be pauperized.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 07:57 - ID#183109)
Consolidated African Mines (CAM) RANGY instead :)
At end-October, CAM's main assets were 8% in Randgold, 24,9% in Saflife which in turn holds 30% of JCI and 47,4% of Capital Alliance, and minority stakes in marginal gold or property companies Rand Leases Props, Durban Deep, Stilfontein and Randgold Resources.

The general advice for investors who are interested in CAM is to buy directly into the underlying assets and avoid the holding company. At least that way you cut out some of the uncertainty and avoid the value traps inherent in the holding structure

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:31 - ID#288295)

Thanks very much for the CAM info; I think I'll just stick with Durban Deep for now.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:35 - ID#284255)
ANOTHER updated
Net chatter:
Here is an excerpt from a newsletter from Wall Street Underground...
As you will see in a moment, this is the very beginning stage of a rally that will propel silver first to $10, and then $20 and ounce. As the rally continues, silver will reach the $50 level Bunker Hunt drove it to, when he cornered silver in 1980.
Sounds impossible? Not really. It's happened before and it's happening again. In 1980, Bunker Hunt -- a Texas millionaire -- cornered the silver market. He rode silver from $2 an ounce to $50 an ounce.
Now it's happening right before your very eyes. Silver is being cornered again. This time there is a critical difference. The modern-day Bunker Hunt is a far wealthier man, by the name of Warren Buffett.
Buffett is the world's 2nd richest man, and the most savvy investor who ever lived. Starting with nothing, he personally has made over $25 billion trading the markets.
Last year Buffett announced the stock market was too high. He started shopping around for his next deal to make billions. He chose silver. Here is why.
Buffett's team took counsel from the foremost traders of out time -- men who had made vast millions trading silver.
Buffett knew the Bunker Hunt story. He knew how incredibly successful Hunt was at cornering the silver market, and driving prices to unheard-of highs.
Here is the inside story of what's happening and why!
Demand for silver keeps climbing. Inventories are low and production even lower. And prices are at bargain basement levels.
Silver is one of the world's most unique metals. There is no known substitute for the metal. Its properties are truly unique, and vital to a host of industrial applications.
Buffett's group got keen analysis from key traders in the silver market, who explained Hunt's mistake. They showed Buffett how easy it would be to again corner the silver market, with relatively little money.
Buffett is in silver for the long haul. Bottom line, he saw that silver was already seeing a supply and demand imbalance. Far more silver is consumed every year than mined.
Buffett already owns more silver than Hunt did -- at one-fourth the price -- and his buying has just started.
The average price Hunt paid for his silver was a sky-high $25 an ounce. On the other hand, Buffett's average price is an incredibly low $5.50 an ounce!
Actually, Buffett is picking up silver for even less. In constant dollar terms, silver is selling for its lowest price EVER!
By the time Hunt was done buying in 1980, he controlled 100 million ounces on credit. Buffett has just started buying, and he already owns more. 130 million ounces of silver, which he has paid for with cash. That makes him bullet-proof. No one can stop him. And supply and demand all say silver will go higher. A lot higher.
When Hunt cornered silver, he only had $20 million cash to put up. He had to borrow more than a billion dollars to corner the market. He hocked everything he owned, including the gold Rolex on his wrist.
Buffett has $20 billion to put into this investment. He can buy and sell Bunker Hunt with the change in his right pocket -- and still have enough money to buy all the gold watches ever made.
Buffett hasn't borrowed a dime. He won't need to. Using less than 2% of his available cash, he has driven silver prices up 50% in a few months. He has enough cash sitting in his account to buy ALL the world's silver. That would only take 10% of his available cash reserves.
Buffett has done this many times before. In market after market, he perceived value when no one else did. You are seeing another Warren Buffett/Berkshire Hathaway multi-billion-dollar, money-making investment.
The world's 2nd richest man already controls 20% of the world's silver market. He owns far more silver than Hunt ever did. As we speak, he is buying more. And the price is just starting to climb.
In the past, outside investors have made fortunes closely following Buffett's every move. They are now starting to jump into silver. Their buying, coupled with Buffett's heavy accumulation, will drive silver to over $10 an ounce by spring: and over $20 an ounce by the fourth of July.
But the money you are seeing now is not the end of the silver profits. Just the opposite. It's the beginning. Gold and silver funds are about to come in the market in a big way. Industrial users have low inventories. Soon they have to buy again and again to meet their needs. They have no choice.
Silver will go to over $50 an ounce. This will happen by the end of the year.
FOCUS-Stock mkt divorcing itself from real econ story?
NEW YORK, Feb. 20 ( Reuters ) - The economy is slowing, corporate earnings are slipping and Asia is still a time bomb just waiting to explode again but the stock market keeps making new highs. Has Wall Street gone nuts?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:54 - ID#377211)
Isn't there a G7 meeting this weekend?
Are we going to receive the silent treatment the world got when things were not going well in 1929 and nobody in CBs and government dared to talk, or knew what to do?
In the Figaro Economie ( February 21, Paris ) there is an article entitled Les cours de lor pourraient rebondir: A linstar de largent, le mtal jaune pourrait un jour sduire les investisseurs, estime Peter Munk, Prsident de Barrick.
In this article they start by a quote by P. Munk saying gold is in the same situation as silver... and they go on about what we all know about gold. They post a table showing the official gold reserves from various countries. French are much more goldbugs than many other nations. Gold hoarding has to get going to see the POG going up, IMHO. It is probably happening, slowly, but surely.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:54 - ID#26793)
A second attempt has resulted in a new message saying that delivery will be attempted over the next 5 days. Is your ISP having a problem?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:56 - ID#411331)
aurator's 7000 tons of gold
Someone out there is offering 7000 tons of gold for sale. ( see post of
Aurator on Sat 06:32 ) Aurator has requested a reply, so here it is:

This could be a bogus offer ( another strategy to destabilize the gold
market ) Unless I am mistaken, 7000 tons constitutes about 50% of the
entire world Central Bank ( monetary ) supplies of gold. No single central
bank controls this much metal.

7000 tons is about 3 years of total world mine output. No gold mining
company or group controls this much metal.

No metal exchange or group of metal exchanges control this much gold.

The above leaves just private sellers. Why would anyone try to dump this
much gold on the market, at or near 18 year lows in gold prices? Not only would this be foolish, but it presupposes that a private individual has been accumulating a significant %tage of yearly available gold for
say the last ten years. WB quietly bought 7% of the world's silver
production over 6 months or so and did create a firming of silver prices
of 25-30%. After his announcement of purchase, there was a spike in
silver prices. So if a private individual ( middle east oil interests? )
were to accumulate gold on the spot market at 3-4% rates per year over ten years, he might be able to acquire say 1000 tons without disrupting the market in a positive way. It is hard to imagine somewone accumulating all 7000 tons without some impact on the spot market.

SO: Anyone can make an offer of sale, even at firesale prices, but this
does not mean that the offer is real. Anyone want to buy the moon? I
guarantee 150% annual return on investment, and you get to keep the moon.
You can have it for $55 billion.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 08:59 - ID#26793)
G7 Analysis

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:00 - ID#288295)
John Disney @ R. Nolan

John - just saw your question from yesterday. I think I have this gold chart scanned on my computer at work. Send me your email address and I will forward to you.

P.S. I appreciate the CAM info, also from yesterday.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:02 - ID#26793)
@Rhody, Aurator
On the 7000 tonnes. Why do I have to wait a year for delivery? Something fishy there.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:15 - ID#411331)
Donald re fishy 7000 tons gold sale:
I agree. I think this is just another scam to depress/discredit the
gold market. The powers that be are getting nervous. There is a massive
correction coming in the North American and European stock markets, but
particularly the N.A. markets, and the powers that be do not want all the
cashing out that will happen to move toward gold and PM stocks. This would be tantamount to an attack on the US greenback.

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:15 - ID#345321)
Wall Street Underground...........
I have found to be long on dramatics, short on useful info. Has anyone bought into Nick Guarino's investment fund ( s ) ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:40 - ID#377211)
G7 ...
Thank you, Donald for the G7 link.
Somehow I expected more news. This focus on only Japan is not good in my book. Good for gold down the line!. This passivity of G7 shows major indecision from the group.
Currency plays are increasing right now. Gold is looking better and better but possibly getting a tad cheaper in the short term... Excellent.
Greenspan's testimony on Tuesday will be very interesting... He might want a soft landing for the US stockmarket but we might be placing a rounding top which could end, insiduously, by a rapid correction.
After the first fissure in the international market ( Asia ) , the last strong world economy ( like in 1929 ) is the US economy... But, IMHO, it will be suddenly weakened when babyboomers, while trying to save for their kids college, while investing big time in the stock market, will finally stop buying expensive goods... Some industries will start to shrink, lay off workers and then we will know that the US economy will go

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:47 - ID#26793)
G7, G8 Communique, Full Text

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:47 - ID#288295)
Mr. Mick @ Nick Guarino

I'm really surprised he is still in business; anyone who followed his lead shorting the US stock market for his guaranteed 'crashes', followed him into the poor house. He may be right, but his timing sucks.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:50 - ID#26793)
UN claims "substantial progress" in Iraq

Spud Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:52 - ID#273112)
@Tyler Rose & TV Sitcom rights....
Tyler Rose,
Just one of the many avid followers here of your COMEX sitcom. I can just see the consternation of LW, Republic & COMEX officials:

"WHAT? Someone WANTS their gold?!! What do we do?!"
"Stall her! Send the certificate unsigned!"
"She sent it back signed!"
"Oh, F***! Ok, ok ... we'll claim that LW owns it .. we have no clue
where it is"
"She called LW and told 'em to transfer it!!"
"Damn East Texas yokels!! Tell her we just discovered it's Nazi gold
and must be turned over to the Swiss Reparation Fund! So sorry!"
"Love it, Boss! Love it!"

Rose, you've got all the makings of another smash hit like "ER" here - I suggest you copyright your posts & get an agent ASAP!

And now, For those who missed Tyler Rose' earlier posting, here it is again:

"No, I still don't have delivery of my 100 oz. bar. It has been a comedy of errors! First, they sent me
a certificate that wasn't endorsed to transfer the bar to me. I mailed it back, and finally received a signed transfer
certificate. I then called Republic Bank to find out how I could take delivery. They said "Lind-Waldock is the last
registered owner of this gold". I have called L-W twice since then and they said they would notify Republic of the
transaction. I will call again Monday to see what my alternatives are for receiving delivery. The certificate I
received says that it is 4 9's fine ( 99.9999 ) and I have talked to Dillon Gage and they have no problem
converting that bar into whatever currency I want it in - eagles, dollars, etc. "

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:57 - ID#330175)
JAMES--------STAY OFF THE BOOZE-----------------
It's warpin yer brain---Maybe ya should do 'reefer'!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 09:57 - ID#26793)
"The stock market seems like a tower of dominos"

(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:05 - ID#26793)
"Don't worry about Asia, it might make you worry about other stuff"

(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:08 - ID#257136)
Of zealots and bitter fruit..aand on and on and on....
T1: The fact of a person living a life of distinct religious principle as we know, does not make of that person a zealot.
I was startled when you ( seemingly ) categorized persons of religious conviction as zealots in your post of 02:35.

I can speak for only one when I say that my beliefs in a Supreme Being give me the stamina to keep on goin' when events want to overpower me-emotionally and psychologically, that is.

Mozel: you are on the track when you make the distinction as to fruit!
As the Shadow said" The Weed of Crime Bears Bitter Fruit".
If we consider all negative behavior towards others as crimes against Nature and humanity, then we indeed are producing Bitter Fruit! ( IMNSHO )

As Christ admonished: "Be Ye therefore Perfect even as my Father in Heaven is Perfect", was he telling his listeners ( and us? ) that anything less was unacceptable?
I do not believe so, else why would there be any Bible or other Scriptures?
The zealots of which we all know, were not TRUE followers of Christ or any other leaderof which I am aware.
I know of no reference in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism or any other religion which tells us that to do wrong ( according to our mores and culture ) is to do right.
Jimmy Swaggart and others of that ilk were not and could not be representative of Christians in fact!
T!: I see no problem with thew zealots. They are outnumbered by the rational ones!
We each sow the seeds of our eternity on a daily basis--whatever our beliefs be!!
It is incumbent upon we the Enlightened to leadthe way.
In our cases, we can shout our Battle Cry" GO GOLD"" and our response to that "HI YO SILVER! AWAYYYYYYYY!"

(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:09 - ID#26793)
Corporate bond default rates double from 1996 to 1997

Spud Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:20 - ID#273112)
@JTF & CBS Iraq bombing news dry-run
They are just being rewarded for their servile, fawning attitude toward the Clinton Administration - regarding the recent CBS dry-runs for the "splendid little Iraqi war". Although from the South, I believe the yanks call it "being on the take".

Really, does anyone out there believe that the news we get from television has much truth or fact anymore? ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN are just unofficial propaganda organs for the Administration, or whoever is really running our lives from Washington/New York/Boston. In all likelyhood, America has reached a "televison news singularity" wherein complete news control has been effected. Try channel zapping twix ABC, CBS and NBC - the synchronization of stories & topics is astounding. Coincidence - or do they all get together to agree on the outline for news each day?

However, there is no shortage of bread & circuses ... oops ... I mean Winter Olympics, Monday Night Football and basketball. Keep the masses satiated with cheap beer & entertainment. By all means keep them disinterested in what the Public Servants are doing behind the scenes...

Ohmygod! I'm begining to sound like Hillary Clinton & her massive conspiracy theories! Oh Spirit of Elanor Roosevelt - channel down to me & guide me!

btw, PBS has been running the "Nixon" series on the tube this week - it is most amusing to realize that the rabid, slavering Left/Liberal/Press depicted in those 70's film and video footage are ALL OVER Nixon for things that pale in comparision to the actions of the Clintons. Where is that same watchdog Free Press today? I'll tell you: on their knees in some White House closet.

And a big TALLEY-HO! to Ex. Gov. Jim Guy Tucker for joining the chorus of canarys singing about the virtuous, moral and honest Clintons!

Finally, why do we never hear WHO is polled to show the so-called popularity figures for President? And why are we not told the questions asked? Institutions only hide things when they have something of which to be afraid: The Truth.

Those CBS/NBC/ABC/USA Today polls are about as phoney as they get.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:35 - ID#31876)
Demonstrations Around The World About Mideast War

(Sun Feb 22 1998 10:59 - ID#288156)
ALL: What is the Isalmic "Gold fix"? Where/How have THEY set the price?

The new standards of the WORLD ISLAMIC TRADING ORGANISATION are based on the traditional average weight and measure of the Dinar and Dirham during Muslim rule:

DINAR/4.25 g/23 mm
DIRHAM/3.00 g/25 mm
FALS/ 3.50 g/21 mm
KHAMSA*/15.00 g/27 mm
* The Khamsa is a 5 Dirham coin.

Dinars and Dirhams have already been minted and have been in commercial circulation in Spain, Scotland, Germany and South Africa since 1992.

The central question is: ( 1 ) Where have the Islamic powers set golds price? How did THEY arrive at that price? Do they have a pricing schedule?; what is their time-line? What was the surprising meeting in Iran REALLY about?

Ancillary questions-- ( a ) How much of the dis/misinformation on inflation has been a part of this silent, hidden battle of Western governments/CBs against the Economic Jihad ? ( b ) What is the WESTERN G7 ( 8 ) really talking about this weekend in London? What is China doing this weekend? {:- )

SpudMaster@The.Media's.Throat They ARE Ministries of Propaganda, MOPS!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 11:08 - ID#426220)

ANYONE: What does this mean?


"Yao xing y j jing li, n d yi jiu gu q"

(Sun Feb 22 1998 11:16 - ID#224363)

"Yao xing y j jing li, n d yi jiu gu q"

...something about future demand.

Goldilocks and the three BEARS
(Sun Feb 22 1998 11:26 - ID#430219)
In case you didn't know:

ABC - American Broadcasting for Clinton
NBC - National Broadcasting for Clinton
MNBC - More National Broadcasting for Clinton
CBS - Clinton Broadcasting Services
CNN - Clinton News Network

I agree with your last post.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 11:27 - ID#30116)
Strad Master
Strad Master -- "Words have meaning...", from the 'fat man' ( i.e. Rush Limbaugh )

As to your discussion last night on the sixth commandment, this is a point I have long tried to make with people. One of the subtleties of psychological warfare is the perversion of the meaning of words. There is a world of difference between murder and killing. The problem today is that the media use those words interchangeably, thus destroying their meaning and usefulness in common discourse.

Whenever I have mentioned that there is a huge difference between 'kill' and 'murder', I am looked at like I'm the nutcase.

Now, let's look at the word 'money'... Is it credit? A federal reserve note? Specie? Or is it electrons and photons moving down their respective copper wire or fiber optic line???

Most people look at their credit card as 'money', but look at the name given to the instrument, 'CREDIT CARD'. Is this not credit? It does not represent past labor done, only the promise of future labor. The analogy to 'murder' and 'kill' is apt here, for if credit and money become synonymous, what is the difference?

It seems I've lost my ( moral? ) compass and GPS ( high tech compass ) unit!!! :- ) )

What was the point of this? Confusion. Once this is accomplished, everything becomes relative and everything is possible. Look at history. Maybe this is why it repeats? Remember, there's nothing new under the sun, gold is a commodity, and the dollar is money backed by the full faith and CREDIT of the ...?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:04 - ID#333131)
Your relentless search is revealing, around the edges, the monentous event of our times. That is, an unraveling of the US as the political and economic world leader. Currency is one part of it. But woven into the fabric of current events is also the absence of a US world view based on basic conviction. We have as a population no belief in what makes for stability and order nor do we have any convictions that last longer than the next newscast and our leaders reflect this. We only "know" that disorder is bad if it loses money and sometimes it can be encouraged if it seems to profit us. The great thinkers of the next cultural change are out of sight and pretenders are emerging in every part of the world and will do untold damage in a world without ideas and convictions. Most of them are following the US lead in extolling the "virtues" of cleverness, disingenuousness, brilliant adaptability of spoken positions, ease with contradictory beliefs, that Americans have come to love in their leaders. They, as have we, miss the fact that what they love in their leaders is also the clinical summary of psychopathy. I believe that what you are tracking is at heart, the reflection of the breakup of world order produced by the loss of culturally validated underpinnings of political leadership. The attempts to go back to these underpinnings, through gold, or religion or ethnic roots or area identities will fail until the people making those attempts are "ruled" by ideas which command conviction for more than a day, or a season, or a crisis or even a lifetime. Gold and currencies figure in this, not because they represent opportunities for profit and trading and cleverness, but because they reflect how a culture views life, work, value, satisfaction and the individual's relation to others. I love your work and follow it closely even though what it reveals doen't bode well for us IMHO.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:09 - ID#347447)
Catchup Ketchup
a.j.: I agree with the general tone of your 10:08. Please permit me to point out that Jesus actually said "Be ye therefore perfect as YOUR Father in heaven is perfect." I take this to mean that each human being must seek the highest powers of rightness, reason, judgement, mercy, and virtue inside them. Sometimes duty requires measures that may appear to go against general godly priciples. One must find what is one's true duty in one's own heart and soul. If one relies on the Bible, then one must admit that "God" sent the Israelites out to war with and destroy a number of peoples. This was because the people of "God" ( those seeking to establish a reasonably righteous, rational, prosperous life on Earth, according to universally higher principles ) are nevertheless HUMAN, and caught up in the contradictions and impurities of the HUMAN CONDITION. But those wo would aspire to righteousness MUST act, otherwise the evil would only rule. Pacifism in the face of human evil is not necessarily a virtue at any and all times. We must use our own higher faculties to lead us each, individually, to the best decision possible. Thus everyone thinks they are "right" but not everyone goes through a relentless soul searching. Were we "God," we would know exactly what to do and when to do it, and we would all be rich because we would buy and sell gold at every swing. Amen.
SHAREFIN: I cannot liken Buffet's buying of silver now in any way to the Hunts in '79. The Hunts piled into a hot silver and gold market during a rampant inflation with the soviets invading Afghanistan, etc, etc. That was a peak phenomenon.
Silver may get to $20 an ounce in our lifetimes, maybe even $150. But it will come over a long bull phase, and Buffet will have little to do with it. Besides, he claims he has all he wants and will buy no more.
NICK GUARINO....Nick has been sort of in the Puetz camp, calling for a humongous crash for the last 2 years. The crash was always thousands of points and imminent. This way you would hurry up and subscribe to his newsletter. I like his style, but I agree there is nothing there you can't find in several other places. And they've all been wrong up til' now.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:11 - ID#347447)
Your 12:04 - AMEN.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:19 - ID#153102)
But the dollar is a measure of silver of certain fineness. A greenback is no more a dollar than money is credit. The first deception is that there can be a paper price of money, gold and silver coin.

John Disney__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:21 - ID#24135)
Chicken Man Speaks ..
For Mozel and Salty..
Ive forgotten all about gold.. This chicken standard may save
the world.
I purchased a Fresh Farmer Brown chicken this morning for test
purposes. It costs 11.59 Rands/kilo with the the rand on friday
at 4.94 to the US $. This puts chicken at $2.35/32 = $0.0734
per troy oz. Thus the chicken-gold ratio is 297/0.0734 = 4046.
REMEMBER THAT NUMBER. Next I will grind it up and mash it into
ingots and send a few samples to the Reserve bank for comment.

For Silverbaron
Email ...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:28 - ID#28593)
Carl--You never disappoint--
Obviously, I agree; but, I could not have said it so well.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:30 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller, a.j., mozel
@Mike - Were we God we would not need money.

a.j. - I meant maniacs are maniacs, no more, no less.

mozel - The chains of certainty have held back our species for far too long. Imagination makes anything possible, if you can think it, it does exist if only in your own mind. Because others can not see it does not alter the reality, only your perception of it.

You use the word laws like a bludgeon, and then tell me I am blind or ignorant.

And now for something completely different for all. Last thoughts on this.

But for a letter, God - Gold - whats the difference, in that I mean, nobody seems to agree except with those who agree with them.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:39 - ID#31868)
Carl your 12:04
Excellent, and well stated.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:41 - ID#20137)
Some goldbug or lurker around kitco must have purchased a 1992,..., 1997 dinar. Would any lurker please post information regarding the purchase price, place of purchase, ... of the new Dinar.

Thanks in advance.

If we can not come up with places to purchase and prices for the Isalmic
Dinar soon, then I think it we have the answer.

Is it possible that the oil states may have been spending U.S. dollars like they were pretend paper money all the while they were storing gold bullion. I have seen many articles noting that the oil states are not as rich as we might envision. Of course, the west does not recognize a gold horde as a vast reservoir of wealth.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:42 - ID#153102)
Pacifism in the presence of evil deeds is assent to them.
The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.
John Hay: Castilian Days, II, 1872

The non-resister sees no evil, hears no evil, and thinks therefore he does no evil. But, of what good is he ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 12:51 - ID#153102)
It is by your own words you have denied that anything in this life is certain. And now you say you are victim of law ? Shall we then, So we might not injure one another, henceforth utter only comforts and censor truth when it contradicts us ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:00 - ID#317193)
Gold- Retirement Account
Since the tax code was changed, effective 1/1/98, to allow bullion of fineness equal to that traded on Comex to be held by a trustee for a retirement account can I buy gold at spot price NOW and, when delivery is made latter, have the gold delivered to a trustee? The question goes to locking in the purchase NOW and setting up the trustee later. Thanks. Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:01 - ID#31868)
Here is what I said "You use the word laws like a bludgeon, and then tell me I am blind or ignorant."

mozel ( Tolerant1 ) ID#153102:

It is by your own words you have denied that anything in this life is certain. And now you say you are victim of law ? Shall we then, So we might not injure one another, henceforth utter only comforts and censor truth when it contradicts us ?

@mozel - see how rumors get started. I am certainly not your victim. What I stated is clear for all the world to see. You invoke the word laws to emphasize your point of view, or the point of view you feel alignment with.

I am uncertain that you understood a point I believed in at the time I wrote it, certain until the uncertainty arrives again to happily and imaginatively shatter beliefs so I can learn more.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:03 - ID#31868)
7000 tons of gold?
Why would anyone that could purchase 7000 tons of gold allow the terms of sale be dictated. I certainly would not, would you?

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:04 - ID#347447)
If we all got the "L" out of gold, we'd be left with only God, or stocks. And, yes, I know that God does not need money. He has unlimited credit. Sort of like Alan Greenspan.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:04 - ID#224363)
The perception of value:

A number of conditions must exist at once for an object to be perceived as valuable. Ask yourself which of the following conditions are currently met for gold and silver.

1. Raritythe item must not be common. A scarcity of supply should exist.

2. Utility or Beautythe item must serve a useful purpose or be perceived as a thing of beauty.

3. Ubiquitythe perception must be widespread

In this context $280-330 gold is likely for a few more years.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:06 - ID#22956)
******Sir Charles********
Will be victorious! ( eh Ted? )

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:12 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller
Or logarithm which leads to ? And THANK YOU for interjecting a sense of humor into this stream of thought!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:15 - ID#333131)
Can anyone answer why AP would run this unsigned China spin story today?

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:27 - ID#250297)
You can't get away with that
JAMES: Your two late-night posts to me ( 6:11 & 7:11 ) have got to constitute the weirdest non-sequitors I've ever encountered!!! Where, in anything I wrote, was Iraq mentioned?????? I thought we were discussing Carla Fay Tucker. I don't want to have to agree with Ted's 9:57 to you, but I do think you need some rest to clear your head before you post again.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:27 - ID#153102)
But, sir, laws are independent of point of view. For else they would not be laws.

We may fantasize from any point of view and then apples may rise in our fantasies instead of falling to the ground, but when the dinner bell rings, we walk to the table.

Imagination is always within the bounds of law, but fantasy knows no law. Hence, there are products of imagination which are of use and benefit. But, products of fantasy are mere entertainments.

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:29 - ID#345321)
ALL: Does anyone believe the idea that silver will hit......
$50.00 per oz. by the end of the year?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:33 - ID#20137)
Date: Sun Feb 22 1998 13:03
tolerant1 ( 7000 tons of gold? ) ID#31868:
Why would anyone that could purchase 7000 tons of gold allow the terms of sale be dictated. I
certainly would not, would you?

Well, I suppose if I REALLY wanted the GOLD and thought that time may be running out for any chances of getting it, YES I would let the terms of the sale be dictated. I agree that what you found is VERY interesting. I repeat it for those that may have missed your orginal post. Maybe the most telling statement is " Please note that this transaction will be concluded on a first come first serve basis. "

Offer Dated: Wednesday, 11 February 1998 23:10:23

This offer is sanitized. Once the prospective Buyer has reviewed this offer and agrees to the Seller's procedures, a Full Corporate Offer will be issued by the seller ( Bullion Bank/Switzerland ) , directly to the buyer, under penalty of perjury.
Sanitized Corporate Au Offer
PRODUCT: AU Metal ( Gold )
QUANTITY: 7,000 ( Seven Thousand ) Metric Tons, all at once.
PRICE: LME with discount of 4% Gross and 3% Net.
COMMISSION: 1% Commission to be split 50%/50% between buyers and sellers intermediaries.
1. Proof of funds and proof of product to be provide at table top meeting in Bullion Bank ( Switzerland ) . Contract will executed at once.
2. Full ownership will be transferred to buyer.
3. Product must remain in the bank against a safekeeping receipt for one
year. Product must enter in a Fed Regulated high yield investment program for one year. New Owner of the Product will receive a profit return of 150% per annum; plus return of funds and possession of Product.
Please note that this transaction will be concluded on a first come first serve basis.

Contact: ( Temporary Member )
URL: Not Listed

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:38 - ID#315256)
@ Mr. Mick...Does anyone believe silver will hit $50 by year end?....
Yes Mick, Puetz believes it. He also believed the DOW would collapse into horrendous crash by January's end. ( Or December's end, or Novemver's end or October's end..or......dozens of other "ends" )

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:39 - ID#250297)
$50 Silver
Mr. MICK: I hold lots of silver and would like it to hit $50.00 by year's end. However, I don't think it is possible unless we somehow get into a highly inflationary environment that doesn't seem to exist right now. Sure would be nice, though.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:41 - ID#31868)
Good grief, YOU need laws. This is your point of view. It is impossible for law to be independent. Which law do you discuss. They are all to be intermingled from YOUR point of view.

Did reason exist before man discovered it or has it existed in both directions of perpetuity.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:41 - ID#237299)
No one seemed interested in Another's post...but..
Unless I have missed the point, the salient issue in ANOTHER's post was this: If the spot deferred contract was such a sweet deal, *absolutely guaranteed to make you money*, then why haven't the Cbs cut out the middleman and done it themselves.

Who's to say that they have not done exactly that. And would they not have a very vested interest in such a bargain to drive the market down even further? I think they have reached the point where they have loaned all they can possibly loan. This gold has been sold into the market, and when they are unable to make further loans, and unable to maintain low prices any longer through rumors- they do not stand a chance in hell of ever getting the gold back.

Strad Master
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:43 - ID#250297)
PANDA: Thanks for the interesting 11:27 post. The Biblical Hebrew difference between the words for Murder and Killing is not something that can be debated. It is simply a fact. Knowing that may help you in future arguments. I'm off now...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:44 - ID#57232)
ANOTHER(THOUGHTS!) Feb 21, 23:47
ANOTHER: Appreciate your comments on gold loans, even if you are not the usual ANOTHER poster. Your scenario makes sense -- what I suspected. The part I was not aware of was what the CB does when gold goes up -- it is obvious! The CB just lends more gold to depress the price in US dollars! An elephant can sit anywhere it wants!
This scenario clearly indicates how the CB's could control the price of gold, and make a profit at the same time. This scheme of course will fail when the CB's decide not to loan any more gold.

There are two corollaries to this scenario I did not think of before. First, gold loans outstanding will be minimal as long as the price of gold is dropping, since the CB's will be able to close their loans at a profit. But -- as soon as the market become bullish, CB gold loans must increase in direct relation to how far the price of gold is from equilibrium. Hence the 8,000 tonne total in gold loans reported by Frank Veneroso looks like a pretty good indicator that the price of gold is far from equilibrium. This is just what FV said.
Secondly, we need to learn more about the behavior of bullion banks. This is no longer just the BIS, as it once was, but overlaps private concerns. How about UBS? Is the LBMA just a site for the Bullion banks to trade? What happens if the gold bullion banks are not able to return the gold to the CB?
Is the gold really removed from the CB, or do they use 'paper' of some kind? And if so, who makes sure that the CB in question really has the gold they claim they have? This could be a real problem, now that we suspect that several large CB's have sold all their gold.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:45 - ID#153102)
I think that piece from the AP is what is called planting an impression. What impression did it leave you with ? That it's OK for China to participate in the NWO process of "increasing co-operation among neighbor countries" ( i.e. erasing sovereignty ) .

How many have examined the Region maps published by the UN ? Or know that martial law is always administerd through regions ?

"Bob Broadfoot, director of the Hong Kong-based Political and Economic
Risk Consultancy". Hmmmm. Resist that thought. It is paranoid to have suspicions.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:53 - ID#237299)
I was on my way home last night when his post first showed up and
a couple of people seemed to think it was a fraud. That one letter
that posted a while back that was characterised as a "wall street
hustler" was obviously not his style. Why do you think last night's

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:54 - ID#153102)
But, where do the forward sales by ABX & other N.A. mines fit in ?
Who else but USG could be on the other side of these purchases ? What else but advance inside information can account for the existence of forward sale contracts written at the peak 1996 price ? Are they not for no other purpose than to back the "gold loans" ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:58 - ID#237299)
Wouldn't they also throw some plums to their golden boys?
I don't see the problem.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 13:58 - ID#347447)
You mean there's ANOTHER ANOTHER?
I need a scorecard. As for Silver hitting $50 this year, everyone knows I have been a raging silver bull since the 17 year breakout in late '97. But even I don't see more than $9.85 this year. Someday, in the GREAT REVALUATION, early in the next century ( relax gang, only a few years to go, really ) silver could be over $100 per ounce. If gold is revalued into the thousands, which I fully expect and stand by ( around 2003-2006 ) then silver over $100 will be a layup. Gold will become the "official" precious metal, and silver will become the new "people's gold." But not yet.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:00 - ID#347447)
2003-2006 refers to YEARS, not gold price.

PS - OBSIDIAN: I like your handle.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:01 - ID#333131)
I'm beyond paranoid. The only news I look for is who is spinning what for whom. Kind of like poker.

Mike Sheller
(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:02 - ID#347447)
All this talk of murder and killing. Isn't there enuf violins in your life already? ( ;- )

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:11 - ID#255284)
Well, I suppose we could talk about GOLD, 7000 tonnes of GOLD. Forget Clinton's pecker

Thanks for those who have contributed to this so far:
I have some THOUGHTS, mostly questions:

1 Why is the bank insisting on retaining posession for 12 months?
2 How can the bank guarantee a 150% profit plus return of funds and possession of Product. ( where Product is old Yella )
3 What and how is the profit calculated?
4 How is the bank going to "prove" the Product ( 7000 tonnes of it ) at a desktop meeting in a Swiss Bullion Bank?
5 Who has 7000 tonnes of gold?
6 Is this a real sale, a lease back, or a hoax?


(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:28 - ID#359316)
Iraqi gold is welcome even in Israel...
"With the sole condition that no "Made in Israel" labels appear on Israeli goods, the trade includes exports ( especially of eggs and work clothes ) to Syria, which formally opposes all normalisation with Israel. It also includes exports to the Iraq of Saddam Hussein, who has been for many years a declared enemy of Israel. During Saddam's war with Iran, he bought Israeli tinned vegetables for his soldiers ( specially prepared to suit the Iraqi taste ) , and even after the Gulf War Israel helped him with exports as much as it dared. Such exports are paid for in gold or hard currency and constitute an important source of Israeli income."
- The Observer

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:31 - ID#153102)
"It is impossible for law to be independent. Which law do you discuss. They are all to be intermingled from YOUR point of view."

I say again it is impossible for law not to be independent, lest it be not law. You simply deny the word law its meaning. It's like denying the word money its meaning. You could be a lawyer. By this denial of meaning, we descend by degrees to where law is simply what the judge says it is and justify martial law, which is no law, as law. To deny that law is independent of point of view is to say there are no principles of right and wrong independent of a man's point of view. Hence, might maketh right. Hence, oral sex is not a sexual relationship. Hence, anything is possible.

"Did reason exist before man discovered it or has it existed in both
directions of perpetuity." Did gravity exist before man discovered it ? In a magic world or a sorcerer's world, anything, including spontaneous self-creation, is possible. But in a world subject to law, anything is not possible.

So, there are but two points of view in the end: the one which says independent of mankind, there are laws which by reason and experience and experiment may be discovered and proved independent of opinion; and the other which says the word law merely refers to the opinion of the age or of the man.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:37 - ID#57232)
Obsidian: The post seems genuine, even if the style is different. The original ANOTHER's writing style is somwhat obscure, mysterious and confusing, partially from I think a cultural difference. However, you may also recall that ANOTHER periodically posts as if he must confer with others about technical details. Hence I think that ANOTHER may let others post in his place. These posts are becoming more detailed and informed, making me think that whatever crisis is pending, is more imminent -- and ANOTHER et al wants to learn from us, as well as inform us of what thery know.
Will there be a disclosure that some Central Bank has loaned more gold than it has, or cannot get the gold back it loaned, and must put it on the next quartery balance sheet?
Actually, it matters little who actually is ANOTHER, or how many individuals speak with ANOTHER's 'voice'. What matters is the information conveyed -- it is highly significant.
What I do is integrate what ANOTHER says with all of the other information I gather to see what makes sense and what does not. Often ANOTHER's posts are especially difficult to decipher, but they are always worth reading, even if some of the information later turns out to be wrong.
You see -- I think ANOTHER ( and his associates ) benefit by observing how we respond to his ( their ) posts. We are all in this together, and we all want to get to the bottom of the gold mystery. I still find it amazing to what length the 'fiat' currency proponents of this world go to to denegrate gold. I think they would make gold to 'disappear' if they could. Fortunately for us -- they can't.
I wonder -- what would these 'fiat' currency proponents do if the whole world knew that the BIS is the only bank in the world with a currency firmly backed by gold -- and that only banks can keep their assets at the BIS? I can't imagine more hypocrisy than that -- we don't get a currency we can trust -- only the central banks do.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:43 - ID#28593)
A. Goose--Good thought (would he who has, share the knowledge of what he paid?)

I expect that piece of knowledge will come with great difficulty to those not of the Islamic faith. Until the time arrives...

We might go to an Islamic neighborhood and check out stores that have the Murabitun sign in the window? ( To sign this sign, go URL at end of P )

In Abdalbarr Brown ( Murabitun of Madison, WI ) In the beginning, networks of shops and individuals which will accept the gold and silver coins as a medium of exchange will be distinguished by a sign or window sticker. Just like Visa or American Express cards started to be introduced in society. Each shop will have the sticker indicating that they accept the dinar and the dirham.
Murabitun Worldwide Site

It seems logical ( ? ) that the sign at the top of the page would be what to look for?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:45 - ID#31868)
I vote hoax.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:48 - ID#255284)
A sleigh of hand, 7000 Tonnes of gold, ****Pooof!****
Why, you just might cry Eureka,

'Will there be a disclosure that some Central Bank has loaned more gold than it has,or cannot get the gold back it loaned, and must put it on the next quartery balance sheet? "

What if a CB had to create 7000 tonnes of gold out of nothing? How would you do it? Could you "sell" 7000 tonnes that you don't own. Insist on keeping Certificates of deposit over this non-existant gold for 12 months ( long enough to think of something else ) thereby being able to prove this gold exists, offer a good ROR to the "seller" or Lessee who will take the risk of holding....

I gotta go to work..anyone like to write a little Sit-Com around this one?


(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:51 - ID#153102)
@Obsidian @All
The details of this "gold loan" business are possibly infinitely variable and complex.
But, what is focusing my mind is this: in the days when banks were actually capitalized with gold and silver ( a Bullion Bank in today's terms ) and issued their own paper, they always failed because they issued more paper than they had gold ( fractional reserve practice ) and people got wind of it and demanded their gold and the bank failed because of this "run on the bank."

Just think of the teller's window as the LME.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:52 - ID#255284)

Santa, wait for me...
sleigh = sleight?

Nix to the hoax imho. A hoax would be on public display, . I found it serendipitously,

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:54 - ID#237299)
Forget your talking about gold for a moment. Think collateral. Somebody wants to borrow 67 billion dollars for one year. But they want to hold your collateral in some sort of yielding escrow account. They promise the moon. The last section of the advertisement is very telling.

"3. Product must remain in the bank against a safekeeping receipt for one
year. Product must enter in a Fed Regulated high yield investment program
for one year. New Owner of the Product will receive a profit return of 150%
per annum; plus return of funds and possession of Product.
Please note that this transaction will be concluded on a first come first
serve basis. "

Now, what type of fed regulated high yield investment could that be, that is also allowing you to get you collateral back. Think gold loans. Think Central bank. Think ponsi scheme. How severe do you think 7000 tonnes of gold would suppress world prices. If you've got 7000 tonnes of gold and you sell it you just shoot yourself in the wallet. If you've got 7000 tonnes of gold and you loan it at spot deferred and gut the world prices you get immense contango. Plus they've got *your* 67 billion in the meantime- to buy something that they *know* is going to quadruple. At the end, even if you do get your gold it's devalued by half. You can't sell it because the prices are gutted and you'd shoot yourself. So you find some new sucker, and try to start the deal again.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:54 - ID#57232)
Logging off -- Going home to do errands.
All: I have a hunch something highly significant is about to happen concerning gold -- for several reasons:
1 ) The EURO must have gold -- and I don't think Germany and France are going to remove much gold from their coffers. I'm not certain of this, but I think the EURO bank must have some gold of its own, separate from that of Germany and France.
2 ) We are now two years into a gold bear with 8000 tonnes of gold on loan, and the currencies of the developed world must inflate to keep from getting sucked into the currency 'black hole' in SEAsia.
3 ) Weakening US economy. Also, the US economy is weakening, and AG must loosen credit to keep it going -- perfect scenario for a gold bull.
4 ) ElNino and crops -- The unstable weather will very likely disrupt crops in the US and elsewhere this year -- bullish for commodity prices. And -- commodities tend to do well when there is a 'flight' from paper.

We will all need to be on the watch for a deflationary surprise sweeping the world -- but I think D.A. is right that this is less likely in the US than inflation -- at least for now.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:56 - ID#31868)
In a common law court there must be jurors. The Judge cannot over turn the decision of the jury. If the law that is brought against the individual before the court is found to be at odds with the decision of the jury, and the jury says the individual is innocent the individual is set free.

What is the law, that which existed before the decision of the free thinking jury, or the decision of the free thinking jury.

We exist in oceans of infinity but man consistently has to make all around him conform to his miniscule understanding of such, hence all the different guide books and published materials which make claims that are totally the creation of man.

You put your faith in law, I will put mine in imagination.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 14:58 - ID#153102)
You might also use the same mechanism to introduce 7000 tons of gold to the market now which are to be produced by mines with which you have a forward sale contract.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:05 - ID#237299)
Mozel, JTF, Aurator everybody, thanks for the insights, I must go to work now.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:08 - ID#57232)
Gold Ponzi Scheme? Logging off for real!
aurator, Obsidian: I think you are both on to something. What happened with Whitewater was that the Bank loan company and the property owners were 'in cahoots', and each time one of the insider buyers bought the same property for a higher price, the Bank could loan out more money. The scheme worked until they ran out of insider buyers, and the price of the property returned to reality, with the Bank ( the public ) holding most of the debt. And the bank went belly up.
What if the same gold was perpetually being sold -- each time at a lower price? Could be the same idea! My guess is that it would work as long as all parties were 'in cahoots' just like with the Whitewater deal.
Makes one think that ANOTHER ( etal ) might be right that the true price of gold might return with a vengeance, when it does --

See you all later!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:08 - ID#222231)

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:09 - ID#153102)
No offense meant, but you are propagating untruths about common law.
It is not what or how you imagine it to be.

P.S. I enjoy music and songs, too. You are presuming an opposition of law and imagination that I believe I can prove does not, in fact, exist.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:14 - ID#22956)
7000 tonnes of gold.....I know who bought it.
Did anyone see Shaq in Orlando?? He was wearing the 7000 tonnes around his neck. He is soooo BIG that he made it look like it was just a small bar-o-bullion. Think about it....he has the bank roll.

Anyway.....Windy ( crusty ) , I prefer to have naked Chickens to gold anyway. With a little garlic salt and pepper......mmmmmmmmm good. Gotta go! The Q is ready. ohmy. prepare the golden cornbread

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:15 - ID#153102)
@Pete First, find first base. Then, get on with it. And ask its name.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:20 - ID#252150)
Ted@Should I destroy my lungs or my liver
I guess both destroy brain cells, which may be an advantage, trying to figure out these mkts. If we had done the dumb thing & just put our money in MFs 5 or 10 years ago & left it there, we would'nt need to be concerned about every $2 fluctuation in POG.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:25 - ID#31868)
mozel, none taken
The Uniform Commercial Code says in Volume 1, Section 103.6: "The Code is complimentary to the Common Law, which remains in force, except where displaced by the code. A statute should be construed in harmony with the Common Law, unless there is a clear legislative intent to abrogate the Common Law." It also says: "The Code cannot be read to preclude a Common Law action."

Most court proceedings today are under a colorable Admiralty jurisdiction also known as Statutory jurisdiction. In Admiralty jurisdiction, "The technical niceties of the common law are not regarded...", 1 R.C.L. 31, p. 422. "A jury does not figure, ordinarily, in the trial of an admiralty suit...the verdict of the jury merely advisory, and may be disregarded by the court." 1 R.C.L. 40, p. 432. "[The] rules of practice may be altered whenever found to be inconvenient or likely to embarrass the business of the court." 1 R.C.L. 32, p. 423. "A court of admiralty ... acts upon equitable principles." 1 R.C.L. 17, p. 416. Have you ever heard a court case where the judge overrules the decision of the jury? This can only happen in a trial in admiralty jurisdiction. The jury is only the conscience of the court. The judge is not an impartial referee who understands Public Law but a commissioner that supports Public Policy which is private law. And your attorney may not be working for you. In CORPUS JURIS SECUNDUM ( complete restatement of the entire American law ) Volume 7, section 4 states: "an attorney occupies a dual position which imposes dual obligations. His first duty is to the courts and the public not to the client and wherever the duties to his client conflict with those he owes as an officer of the court in the administration of justice, the former must yield to the latter....Clients are also called 'wards of the court'." The fifth edition of Blacks Law Dictionary states that a Ward of court is: "person of unsound mind

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:27 - ID#224149)
Gold even smells dead ---What a stink
Ted ---C$---Sideways---Gone Took the Profit 20k ---Away for some holidays ---Gold my only sick investment ---Should have bought Dell ---One more week for Gold and I say Bye Bye ---What a Dying Investment ---Away to book plane tickets

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:27 - ID#31868)
mozel - this is really a gold forum. I think we agree to disagree and that should be on our own time. Thanks.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:30 - ID#252150)
Strad@You're right & I apologize
Unfortunately, I was caught up in the passion of the moment.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:42 - ID#153102)
Just FYI the Forum, juries are advisory in cases in equity. Not usually ignored by the judge, but may be. By the mishmashing together of rules of originally distinct procedures of law, equity, and admiralty, they have concealed the true jurisdiction, which is not admiralty, but martial.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:52 - ID#31868)
mozel, I too am familiar with this aberation you speak of.
Martial Law Proper is the law governing the internal operation of the armed forces. It is this law that is followed to control military command of armed forces. For example, it is the law used to enforce an order of a sergeant upon a private. It is the law that is enforced by Courts Martial.

Martial-Law Rule is the law of necessity and emergency. This form allows a domestic use of martial law powers, but only for as long as the necessity or emergency exist. The most dangerous thing about this form of Martial Law is that this form of martial law is used during times of peace.

Called by some writers on the subject, and termed such by a few constitutions, the "Law-Martial," this jurisdiction has existed since the United States Constitution was first established. Congress and the President of the United States have argued since the beginning on how far the Law-Martial power can be exercised by both Branches of the government. The United States Constitution and the State Constitutions, only, authorize the power to exist, they do not necessarily define its proper or legitimate use. Should the Law Martial power be abused by the Executive and the Legislative Branches, when the Judicial Branch will not check the abuse of the Law Martial powers, the people, being confused, become alarmed, and begin to disobey the statutes authorized under the Law Martial powers.

Any of the three forms, used strictly for the purpose they were structured for, would be, according to the United States supreme Court, constitutional. In my opinion, based on the facts I have uncovered, it is the third form of the Law Martial [Martial Law Rule] that could be and is used to destroy the letter and spirit of the original United States Constitution. It is also the third form [Martial Law Rule] that can be administered in such a manner as to lead the people to believe the Government is administering Constitutional law when, in fact, the Government is administering Martial-Law Rule under appearance of Constitutional law.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:55 - ID#252150)
It looks like my prediction of over a week ago that
there will be no attack on Iraq will be right. The Egytian President
Mubarak ( sp ) was interviewed on CNN an hour ago. Thank goodness for CNN where there is some semblence of balanced reporting. He was very unequivocal in stating his opposition, & also spoke for other Arab Countries. He also brought up the double standard that many complain about.
I'm beginning to think that this whole thing was stage managed & that Clinton is much more clever & in this case Machiavellin than most people give him credit for. I don't think that the reception at the T.H. meeting in Columbus was unexpected. Clinton will come out of this as the tough unwavering leader, but in 1 to 2 years all the sanctions will be lifted.
The U.S. needs a stronger Iraq to serve as a buffer between Iran, who they perceive as the major threat to U.S. hegemony in the ME & the biggest potential threat to Israel.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 15:56 - ID#330175)
Poorboys @ Lake Simecoe
Have a good holiday~~~~~~~~~~

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:00 - ID#330175)
Hey,don't lump moi with the G-Bugs---I've been in 'conventional stocks'since 1986 ( DRIPS ) and thus I can afford to be a bum in Cape Breton

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:03 - ID#22956)
Crusty=Salty.....sorry boys.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:10 - ID#238295)
James: As I pointed out in a recent post, there is a good chance this whole "crisis" was staged to give the US a face saving way to end the sanctions. That was always the main issue, not Iraqi weapons.

This scenario would encompass SH suddenly backing down and agreeing to inspections. Then a few months later US agrees to phase out the sanctions. And when sanctions are lifted Iraq oil will pour into world markets -- hence the recent weakness in petroleum and petroleum equity prices. Still not sure that it will play out this way, but the odds seem considerably better than fifty-fifty.

Donald: Deflation sure isn't a problem these days in the nursing profession. Here in Palm Beach, hospitals are facing a critical shortage and offering $5000 bonuses to nurses who agree to sign up for at least a year. Current shortage a direct result of heavy downsizing the last few years amid continued increase in patient loads that burning out many. We may face deflation for certain types of manufactured good, but for services that cannot be performed overseas it is whole nother story.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:13 - ID#330175)
EB............How bout dem NICS$$$$$----as the Luckers trail the Magic(snicker)
*go gold*!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:26 - ID#29082)
Iraq backs down or were they paid off?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:32 - ID#238295)
XAU has now retraced about half its rise, but gold has not, at least not yet. Still expecting bullion to fall to the $290 area, but XAU not likely to drop much further. XAU should jump anywhere from 10% to 30% on the next major rally.

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:37 - ID#345321)
All: Price of oil it deflation or fear of war or what?
High test is down 25 cents per gallon around here. What is going on?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:43 - ID#252127)

Thanks in advance.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:46 - ID#329157)
Gold- they're giving it away
Each visitor to the Exhibition of International Gold Bars at the Bank of England Museum ( ) gets a piece of gold bearing ore to take away ( free, since there's no entry charge ) . The ore is from Western Deep Levels Limited, South Africa- "The world's deepest gold mine at 3.7km". Compliments of Anglogold, Rand Refinery Limited, N M Rothschild & Sons, & World Gold Council. Average gold purity: 7.6g per tonne. On examining my booty, which weighs 38.82 g ( on a scale accurate to about 0.1g in 3kg ) specks of gold can indeed be seen here and there on the surface. Using the quoted purity, I calculate that the giveaways amounts to 0.0003g of gold. 1 ounce, troy = 0.031,103,476,8 kg so this 0.0003g of gold is 0.0000096 oz. and at $300/oz this works out to 0.003 cents worth or 0.0018 pence sterling. Of course, if gold goes up to $30000/oz this gold will be worth 0.3 cents. The gold-plated Bank of England badges given to my kids undoubtedly contain a lot more gold than this lump of ore. However, at $0 per oz. I can't complain. What I'm wondering is- is this exhibition a plot to suggest that gold belongs in a museum, or is it a subtle effort to enhance the positive perceptions of gold ( the exhibition is not coy about describing gold's stability as a store of value and its portability e.g. in relation to Vietnamese boat people's gold wafers sewn into clothing ) .

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:53 - ID#252127)
Mr. Mick

Probably over production and the Asian problem combined.

But, IMHO oil which turns the global production machine and which the modern farmer relies on to keep his production up and equally important for getting that food to market does not have to be totally dependent on supply and demand.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 16:56 - ID#368244)
7000 Tons of Gold

Let me understand this correctly, I buy 7000 tons of gold, which I agree to let stand on deposit for one year. At the end of this year I will recieve the equivilant of 17500 tons of gold based on a spot price of say 300 an ounce. I do not think a deal of this type would be hard to put together.

Now lets see, If I sale my 1963 corvair I can come up with------------------------

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:07 - ID#345321)
Jack: So we're back to trading bushels of wheat for barrels of oil? Sounds like
ANOTHER's predictions of oil for gold will come true. I see the dollar is
losing ground against the mark.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:13 - ID#258129)
@Mr. Mick, 16:37
UN is offering a way for US to quit current funny situation without loosing a face. BC will be idiot if not accept it. Thats why oil is going down. Gold will do the same.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:16 - ID#270315)
Thought you may be interested in this url: before you go and sell your gold holdings.

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:17 - ID#345321)
Delphi: Gold will do the same??????? Please explain...........
IMHO gold will not go down because people are losing confidence in paper.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:19 - ID#31868)
Iraq? and gold?
I don't think Iraq or the Middle East will have any impact on the fact Asia is in a depression that will not end soon. Iraq will not have any impact on the massive financial problems in Japan.

Everything on the planet that can affect the price of gold does not have to relate to oil or the Middle East.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:29 - ID#258129)
@Mr. Mick
Mr. Mick, we all want that, as You say, "people are losing confidence in paper" would be a reality. But when I or You, or anybody else will compare Dow and Gold figures for the last year, and 1998 - it is obvious, that majority ( may be not the smartest one ) think other way around.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:37 - ID#153102)
Dig a little deeper, friend. Look into the admission of West Virginia on terms dictated by Congress and not according to the provision for admission of new states in the Constitution. Look into the admission on dictated terms of all states after West Virginia. Those states all have provisional, law martial State Constitutions and governments. The Constitution ceased to exist when the southern States took their Senators out of Congress. Lincoln assembled a pretend Congress under martial law. It has been there and so since. The federal has been bankrupt since the first greenback. You cannot have Constitutional rule by necessity and emergency, because necessity and emergency know no law. The declared state of emergency from bankruptcy has gone on since 1933 and there is no prospect the federal government will ever emerge from bankruptcy. They mean to rule us by legal force and not by law.

Lurker 777
(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:37 - ID#317247)
7000 tons of gold.
RE: New Owner of the Product will receive a profit return of 150%
per annum; plus return of funds and possession of Product.

Hmmmmm - Invest $67 billion dollars and receive $100 billion dollars profit PLUS the original $67 billion and possession of the 7000 tons of gold.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:41 - ID#318118)
With the POG fixed for the majority of recorded years we have very little history to work with to determine what moves gold. Recent history certainly makes it clear that large moves up in inflation in the U.S. moves gold up. Deflation in secondary countries, such as we have seen recently, hasn't given a clear movement in gold, except that it becomes more expensive relative to the currency that has deflated. The same seems to have been true with the Soviet Union break-up and Russias on-going financial problems. The threat of miltary action in a world sensitive area hasn't had any significant effect on the POG either.

We assume that a major market collapse in the U.S. will bring about a flight to safety i.e. heavy investment into gold. As a matter of fact our belief that a major bull market in gold is near is based on alot of assumptions. From what I have read in the KITCO forum most of us think a major stock market fall is immenent and gold and gold stocks will move up as the market falters. Now, will gold really make a world wide climb in price or just become more expensive to those directly effected by the U.S. dollars decline due to deflation? Another scenario is that the U.S. government has been hiding real inflation in our economy and that secret will somehow be compromised bringing about an overnight market collapse and a rush to gold for safety.

What really bothers me about this whole thing is that almost all scenarios are based on something happening to the It seems a bit arrogant on the part of us U.S. citizens to assume that the U.S. economy is the only one that will move gold one way or another. I know that the Japanese situation has been highlighted here as a possible catalyst for gold but only as to how it will effect the U.S. dollar. I am just about convinced that a major world inflationary cycle must come about to move gold up world wide. In a deflationary situation cash, not gold, is king. I guess what I'm getting at is that we are not going to see gold move for sometime, except possibly down. I am heavily weighted in gold and gold stocks right now and beginning to wonder why! HELP!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:44 - ID#252150)
I'm posting this excerpt from Abby Cohen's Barron's interview because
her baby analogy is so good & may remind you of a certain pundit that we have'nt heard much of lately.

Cohen recognizes that optimism & bullishness are hard sells these days.
Cohen & some other optimists like Ed Yardeni are often dismissed as naive new paridgm proponents even though their records at least so far have been estimable. She says people are naturally risk adverse & many prefer to focus on the warts & blemishes of the economy rather than on what's working right, she asserts with uncharacteristic asperity. The bears have a tendency to get hung up on worthless historic chronologies, mistaken rules of causation & busted rules of thumb. They can be like babies in their cribs, who child psychologists note will sometimes pump their legs thinking that the action rather than a breeze is what causes the bedroom curtains to move.

For some reason unable to repost electronically from Barron's.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:46 - ID#368244)
@ Lurker
Sounds like horse manure to me.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:49 - ID#31868)
I have dug deeper, but enough of this for today. I am watching Columbo in the background and I am thinking of having him look into the fantastic dolma dilemma, and the missing grape leaves which is part of the now fantastic gold and oil mystery which enshrouds the entity known as Another.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 17:57 - ID#22956)
Just read your Heavy Hitting Baloney
re: Platinum call.....hmmmm.... ( let's all whip-out our calculators and do some figuring ) .

My "call" on plat was at 359.60. Got that?
Platinum NOW closed Friday at 383.90. Got that?, 383.90 - 359.60 = $24.30. Got that?
Now let me know what your calculator calculator says you lost more than $1200.00 per contract ( futures ) .

And while you are 'crunching' those numbers tell me how you made all that money from "MY" Platinum call. And try to get some original stuff for me to laugh telling us how VASTLY wealthy you are ( anyone who needs to tell people how much money they have is suspect in my book ) I don't even know why I respond to your ridiculous CRAP...... shake my head at Vastly Wealthy Heavy People

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:00 - ID#210114)
Rude and Insulting Mozel
One final word on gold standards and convertability. While it is true that you could get your handful of gold and silver coins for notes during the period of the true gold standard, if you had any serious money during that period and you requested gold for it you would have been told to 'stuff off we need it to back the currency'. Otherwise there would have been no gold left in the Fed if all of America's millionaires demanded convertability.

There is also no need to call me names. I am neither stupid nor naive. It seems to be the last resort for people on this page when they run out of arguments.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:07 - ID#17796)
Gold is at it's bottom, give or take $10. Why it will rise is unknown unless you believe ANOTHER. Demand is high as evidenced by coin shortages, Comex inventory and LBMA activity. Still, the price falls. It is not possible for any commodity or thing to be in demand but not rise in price, at least above production cost, for any great length of time. Is the price artificially low due to CB's actions? Who knows. Time, however will tell. What is known is that a surpressed price of the sort seen in the gold market, when reversed, will be more dramatic than most foresee. Will the stock markets crash and burn? Don't know, don't care. Likely anyway. If gold has been surpressed to serve some other purpose and this effort fails, as it must, then derivatives are in play and the major banks will fail and so will the world economic structure. Makes you want to get physical-doesn't it. HOLD your gold AND buy as much as you can @300 an oz. Good Luck! Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:08 - ID#31868)
Roughly 3 billion people want and buy/smuggle gold and silver. Look at the world around you. Add up small numbers - 5 ounces of gold and 20 ounces of silver per person.

Pretty huge numbers. Who trusts paper? Not the 3 billion.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:08 - ID#288156)
tsclaw--Would you please clarify--
"In a deflationary situation cash, not gold, is king."

as to what country's 'cash' we hold? All US? Tranches of cash along lines of G7 ( 8 ) GDP? Cash that has been 'devalued' and might now
'be a bargain? This cash thing is VERY confusing when "cash" is repriced to market every day! {:- )

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:10 - ID#153102)
There is no doubt country of residence has a bearing on prospects for POG.

Here are some more things to consider. You are looking at POG in London. If London closes, you are looking at POG on Nymex. If that market closes, you are looking at the US official POG.

It seems impossible for the United States government to link the greenback to gold internationally directly within any foreseeable future. There are just too many in circulation. If they do link it directly, you will be a rich man. If London settlements in gold are switched to another currency like the yen, you will be a rich man. But, you may have to smuggle your gold out to get anything for it.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:15 - ID#210114)
$50 Silver not possible
At those prices demand from India will be killed off. If your lucky it will get to $US9.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:19 - ID#258129)
Dutch CB gold sales in 1997
This is partial, and of course, not official translation of the document of the Ministry of Finance of Netherlands.
Date: 13 Jan 1998.
Minister Zalm of Finance Affairs informed Parliament over gold sales in 1997.
In 1997 Netherlands has sold 300 ton of gold. It was sold in several transactions in different time frames. This amount was 20% of gold, owned by Dutch CB. Total value of these transactions was NLG 6,4 B. These transactions brought our country to the same level of gold ownership as other countries with solid gold backing repute. To my opinion [Zalm] these sales fit into current financial and monetary situation. Gold was sold at a price of NLG 21400 per kg while the book value was NLG 13900 per kg With current interest rates, currencies exchange rates, etc. these transactions will rise BC profit at about NLG 250 M per jear.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:22 - ID#153102)
There was no Fed in America until 1913. There has been no greenback redeemability in gold or silver since 1933. You just have it as a personal opinion that government can tell the people to stuff it. And you deliver it in a rude and insulting way. What happens in America on these questions has nothing to do with you.

ted butler__A
(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:35 - ID#317184)
Mr. Mick@$50 silver

Mr. Mick, you've asked a top-notch question. It's not whether silver will hit $50 this year, but rather, can it? The reasons given in the original scenario, that Mr. Buffett would continue buying ( I guess I can't help myself that I now refer to him as Mister since his disclosure ) , I think are wrong, as his publicly traded investment entity has stated the opposite. But, the price prediction given could come to pass for different reasons. No, not the obvious supply/demand imbalance of one of the world's most vital resources, but because of the play in the paper market.

I think the real question is how long everyone ( not just the regulators, but all of us ) will tolerate a short position that is obscenely out of whack with any publicly traded item. Don't want to beat a dead horse, but are there any fundamentalists or technicians out there who can explain why there is nothing wrong with the size of silver's short futures and call option position?

Mr. Mick,

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:38 - ID#340459)
@Tyoung, Thanks for your ppost at 18:07, I have synonymous views

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:39 - ID#153102)
@Bottom Line
People the world over are being cheated every day by their governments. They are forced to exchange their labor and their goods of substance with government for printed paper whose purchasing power and savings power are independent neither of the government owned printing presses nor the currency traders. In bygone days, government this dishonest would be afraid to leave the castle.

Now we have the very real prospect of no privacy; none whatsoever. Credit information, which when your currency itself is nothing but credit means transaction information, is centralized for purposes of "determining credit worthiness." Tax collection is simply a matter of them taking what they want. They withhold at the source.

Have people in general sunk so low in self-esteem and self-respect that this can go on indefinitely ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:48 - ID#210114)
Mozel: Not my personal opinion
On all questions regarding gold standards I am using information I researched from a number of books on the subject; they are not my personal opinions rather they are the opinions and stated facts from a number of learned academics and economists.

Finally, while I will admit that I am sometimes blunt with my comments I NEVER call anybody names like 'stupid'. Have I called you a name?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:51 - ID#31868)
simple question, does anyone trust anything Greenspan says?
Yes or no.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:56 - ID#376309)
Re: Supply and Demand - ---- TYoung
I read a very interesting article that money flows into the stock market did NOT determine it's direction as many people have touted. In other words we keep hearing about how the "Baby Boomers" in this country are going to put money into the stock market every month no matter what. This article went into how people can infact put money into the stock market every month and that we can have a bear market in stocks anyway. I've been telling you about this alot. Supply and Demand in Gold DO NOT determine if gold is in a bull or bear market. You should rememeber this because when the country goes to hell and the central banks threaten to sell more Gold to mask the problems it will be too late and gold will not go down. Something like Orange Juice, supply and demadn are everything, but for stocks, bonds and gold there are many many things to look at.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:56 - ID#340459)
@tolerant1, NO

(Sun Feb 22 1998 18:59 - ID#153102)
I believe the offending terms were used in the conditional. If they weren't, you have my apologies. Learned academics and economists and lawyers are, almost without exception in my experience, deceivers, who serve political masters who cheat the people with paper. What employment is there in government schools and agencies for anyone who would expose the fraud of fiat paper currency ?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:03 - ID#210114)
Apologies accepted. But a conspriacy of the size you have just outlined is not possible. Isn't it more possible that those who advocate returns to gold standards are just out of step with the rest of society?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:04 - ID#153102)
You are correct. These are monetary metals. If supply and demand had anything to do with financials, there would never have been a bubble anywhere or anytime.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:05 - ID#224250)
T1 & Greenspan
If Greenspan ever thought in terms of the long-term health of the U.S. financial system he has definitely switched to protecting the speculative investments of the large international banks.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:09 - ID#17796)
You may certainly beleive that what you wish. I respectfully decline to accept the proposition that demand will not cause a price increase, in time, if supply is exceeded by demand. Let your mind see beyond what the eyes read. No disrespect intended. I just disagree. Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:13 - ID#17796)
And to you for yours. TOM

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:17 - ID#238422)
Miro, congratulations on the Czech Hockey Olimpic Gold!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:18 - ID#222231)
Gold in a defined range? Please don't kill the messenger!
I know I'm dense, but would someone explain to me how gold is going to breakout substantially when the CB's have total gold reserves of 36,000 tonnes +/- to play with?

1 ) Annual production of 2,400 tonnes/yr.

2 ) 2,400tn/36,000tn*100 = 7%+/- of total CB gold reserves.

3 ) Even if they sold forward 2,400 t/yr ( unlikely as not all producers are in the enviable position of ABX ) , this hardly makes a dent in thier reserves. As ANOTHER said in his last post, thier gold is backed by reputable producers with proven reserves.

4 ) If they sell forward to producers with proven reserves that are creditworthy, or delay delivery for one, two, ten yrs, they do not water down or lose thier reserves because eventually they are going to be replaced by proven reserves.

5 ) These forward sales or other sales outside of forward sales can be made without disrupting thier holdings drastically.

6 ) These sales can be made as the market place dictates to meet demand. They can also dictate price by whether they exceed or undersupply demand.

7 ) With the above, the CB's in essence keep or add to thier gold assets, earn interest on same and control the price of gold within a defined range. Pretty neat if I do say so.

8 ) At the same time they can say inflation is dead and the currency of choice is strong because of price of gold not moving out of a defined range.

9 ) This fires up the illusion that fiat money is good and the majority of the suckers not a bit wiser.

10 ) Sales could be triple, quadruple if needed to meet stronger than expected demand and not put them in jeopardy. If the world pop is 5 Bil +/-, how many people would be able to salt away gold. Say 10% or 500 mil. 40% 0f 36,000 = 14,400 tn = 500 mil oz+/- 1oz/person.

11 ) I think the price of gold is capped at the lowest point they will allow it to go presently at $300/oz. To allow it to go lower or even stay at this price would be bad for the CB's. At this price it discourages and closes many marginal producers. This in turn would drive the price up because it will lower production. At $400/oz most mines will survive and continue to produce and prosper.

I know that this is not what anyone wants to hear. But it seems to me that we are fooling ourselves. Gold should go no lower than $290-$300/oz and will probably inch up until equilibrium is reached. When producers go hat in hand to Davos to beg for understanding from CB's as to gold, you know the CB's have them by the short hairs.

It seems to me that we would be better off trying to understand what thier next move is and play the market accordingly instead of deluding ourselves. Investing is a game where you either lose, win or draw. When you have a losing hand, fold your cards, take your lumps and go on to greater and bigger things. I STILL THINK SILVER IS A BETTER PLAY. THE CB'S DON'T HOLD ALL ACES AS THEY DO WITH GOLD WHEN IT COMES TO SILVER. BUT YOU CAN BET YOUR HOUSE THAT EVENTUALLY THEY WILL FIGURE A WAY WITH SILVER ALSO!! SO GET INTO SILVER BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!!!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:18 - ID#376309)
The demand has exceed supply in gold for several years yet the price goes down. It will go up one day when the stock market will go down, which will happen!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:19 - ID#153102)
The operative word is not consipiracy; it's policy. Not too long ago everyone in China was running around with a little red book and spouting the sayings of one man in order to prove to each other that billions of people could be of uniform opinion. It's not so much the opinion of society that gold is up against; it's the policies of government, spoken and implied. An American lawyer can't keep his admission to the bar if he doesn't go along with the procedures in bankruptcy that expose his clients to the statutes of the law martial and put them in the wringer. Academics and economists have to conform for tenure and grants. Policy is how you keep people in line with the party line, the official line.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:21 - ID#330175)
yer dead~~~~~~~~~~

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:23 - ID#258129)
@Glen, 18:56
Supply and demand equation is totally wrong for the gold market, when CB can easily "outperform " production.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:30 - ID#238295)
CBs and gold
Pete: You may not have been around then, but gold surged more than twenty fold in the 1970s when the CBs had more than they do today and were selling aggressively. The key factor was huge private investment demand stimulated by soaring inflation, a soft dollar, and a weak stock market.

When private investment demand again takes off, the CBs will be helpless to stop the yellow from skyrocketing. This is especially true considering the huge short interest extant today that did not exist during the 1970s. But as Milhouse has correctly pointed out, as long as private investment demand is moribund, the Fed and those CBs controlled by it and short sellers allied with it will have little trouble keeping the price down.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:30 - ID#17796)
CB's have 36,000 tonnes? Bet not-if London activity is any indication. Maybe, just maybe, gold is in short supply and we just don't know it yet. Just as in silver, demand has outstipped supply for years only gold is still at it's bottom. Perhaps the price has been ARTIFICIALLY surpressed? Time will tell. Buy a gold coin for your children's children. Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:33 - ID#153102)
How much in $ is the world trade in oil per day ? Why don't we put that figure on the table for comparison to the oz traded of gold worldwide per day ?
If this little adventure in the Persian Gulf doesn't work out, oil is going up and the forward sales program is going to be swamped if it has not been already. Gold is a limited metal and you can multiply it for a while with fractional reserve banking, but sooner or later there's a run on the bank.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:33 - ID#372344)
@ Heard on the Steet.....Iraq...ME Oil...US$...Gold...
The chances for Bombing Iraq are declining by the hour as I stated
last nite, now down to only 10% IMVHO.....UN spoksman says deal
with Iraq reached, to be signed in 2 days, is acceptable to all
15 UN members including US.....More "riots" in Jordan army sent in
this may have been enough of a "snipet" of what was to come
in the region if US did Bomb....BTW about 12 Italians left Italy today
for Baghdad to act as human shields ,the world is certainly 'fed" up
with the US.....I would look for slow lifting of UNsanctions of Iraq
in about 6 months, SH is clearly the winner so far of this "one"....
I would keep my eyes on that "summit" in Saudi with the Iranians,
I see Oil cut backs ahead by these two and possibly other opec memebrs to allow price of Oil to rise to $18-20, in order to earn enough to refurbish Oil fields equipment etc, and to allow for Iraq's return to production next year some time, and maybe alot more price hikes now that The US will
have weak ( can't use military ) diplomatic ties, and rise in prestige of Russia and China should allow more "renegate" countries to rebel vs the US.....Gold would have done better IMVHO if the US did Bomb, because of the chaos that would be unleashed, however, this "agreement" ( face saving ) will also be a plus for Gold, but on a slower rise basis, I would also look for the US and the markets to top in the next week or so , and begin to focus back on the major problems facing the world economies the SE Asia 'glitch"....

stay tuned....

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:34 - ID#28585)
The Dow to 10,000 by the end of March!!!


(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:36 - ID#42365)
Hrmmm Makes you wonder what happens when you add a little
Y2K to the fray, this will be interesting to follow over the next few years, as for me I am holding gold, its always gold, and paper is always paper.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:39 - ID#222231)
Oldgold, TYoung, Ted
To Oldgold I say; Do not underestimate the propaganda, intelligence and cunning of your enemy!

To TYoung; You got a bet. How much?

To Ted: Arggggggggggggggggggggg, gasp, sputterrrrrrrrr!

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:40 - ID#294232)
Australia is creaming gold!
I only have three words for them. FOOLISH,FOOLISH,FOOLISH!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:45 - ID#238295)
TZADEAK: Oil weak on access tonight. Market correctly doubts OPEC will cut production enough to offset probable big new supplies of Iraq oil in the not too distant future.

Peaceful settlement somwhat positive for gold short-term since PPT will not have as much incentive to push it down sharply as a gesture of support for Clinton Iraq attack. But less bullish longer-term since Moslem hostility to the US will not be as intense as it might have been.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:48 - ID#238295)
correction continues
Looks like we are going to hit my $290 ( spot ) target in the near future. Again not surprising considering sharp drop in XAU last week.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:51 - ID#330175)
@what else is new............................the next bomb won't miss,Pete~~~~~
April gold down .80 @ 297.90

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:52 - ID#372344)
@ OLD GOLD...On this one I don't agree....
I believe the Oil price is already reflective of the New UN Iraq deal
to sell $5 Bill , however as I posted last nite, Iran's Oil minister and
former PM are in Saudi for talks, after the crown Prince was over in
Iran last month at the major Islamic conference.... I think something
BIG is brewing on the Oil patch and Opec will cut production soon
and that is certainly NOT reflective in the Oil price tonite......

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:57 - ID#222231)
I think the gist of what I'm saying is The CB's can forward sell and actually sell 15 years of production and still hold 36,000 tonnes as assets on thier books. I do not care one twit how much demand will be out there. That is a lot of gold. It amounts to being able to sell two yrs production for every yr, or doubling the yearly supply available. In one fell swoop they can crush shorts or longs at any given time depending on what suits thier purposes. Who really knows who has been buying gold at these depressed prices? How do we know if they have'nt added to thier reserves? Betcha they have. Not very much because I've been taking a beating also!

How can oil go up now if a settlement is reached. I believe we now know that SH wanted the sanctions lifted and he has won. What will happen when his oil goes into full production and hits the market on top of decreased demand from ASia?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:58 - ID#330175)
S+P Futures........Gold ........and the Simpsons
S+P futures up 2.40-------gold down-------and The Simpsons are up! bbMl kiddies~~~~

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:58 - ID#345321)
ted_butler: I appreciate your input...........................
there are a lot of variables at play here. I don't know which ones will end up being the prime movers, but lack of confidence in paper notes has got to be a big one.........
We'll wait and see.....

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 19:59 - ID#403159)
Find a new play ground. "Just kidding"
Your senerio makes good and everything.
However, gold is an insurance policy againest
a uncertainty. If and I say if, suppose oil supplies
are disrupted one day due to major conflict in
the gulf. You and everyone else would sell all
their equities in a moments notice and run to
gold. We are not in 1991 when equities where
cheap. This time around everyone would head
for the exits. This is the real risk with the stock market.
Or for that matter any asset that soars to extreme
valuations. The good news that keeps driving assets
higher will not always be there forever. Every dog has
it's day. Whether it be equities, real estate, P.M.'s and
the rest. No one investment can sustain phenomenal growth
forever. Oil is too cheap and America can't keep the M.E.
at bay forever with cheap oil. Our standard of living is
way above theirs and they ain't going to play this losing
poker game forever.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:03 - ID#222231)
Heavy Hitter
You are right in your assumptions, meanwhile in the short term we're getting killed and in the long run we will be dead for sure.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:06 - ID#222231)
See, I knew you did'nt want to hear the truth. God, I feel like BC dodging all these bullets.

Mr. Mick
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:07 - ID#345321)
Delphi: your 17:29.............
you are absolutely correct, sir. Millions are made and lost every day, on paper. I do not have the intestinal fortitude to watch my retirement money gyrate up and down like its on a roller-coaster.
Many of my friends trade stocks, and the circles under their eyes are going from purple to black.
I sleep a lot better now.................

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:08 - ID#258129)
Old Gold, 19:48
I have posted here on Feb 03 1998 18:44, that Gold will go down $10-20 from 295 level. Pity, but thats the way it is.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:13 - ID#60253)
It is written that A voice that is true has many minds for reproof, but one tongue can never be as the same thought with all men . I say, draw from these words what you have not and make use as your past will allow.

How can one know value in currency, when paper does not lie still? It moves at night, where noone can see, and this we hold to prove out worth? Real things know not this paper value, for they hold tight in the earth. In this time, we do stand firm with value and watch as thoughts of others change in the wind!
The modern currency price of oil and gold does not show the risk of a paper storm. It offers no sign for the weather ahead! Today, some see the value of oil as true, thru gold. But risk comes not in currency inflation by price of things, but in currency destruction thru choice of use! Find one nation for gold and all thoughts will move as one. For as persons need real things for life, they do want and reach for a real measure for worth. Not one by concept, but as true from the past.
All persons hold wealth as never before, but search in vain for this measure, one that blows not in the wind of thought. For the good of all, this search does end, but brings with it the storm of change! The trust of old values will break in this new wind. Hold your worth firm on the ground as no storm will move a true value with weight, a weight for the winds of this season, gold!

It is a poor reason and purpose, that a CB lends gold for 2%! A simple farmer is better not to plant, as a harvest of grain for 2% is as a wage below life itself! Know they do this for a higher reach, as the gain is not for the return of metal, but its use in trade. As in all things, the world does change and this purpose of CBs is now of the past. A Desert
Storm offered birth for this new paper oil currency and a currency storm will now bring its change. As a currency of gold springs from this wind, western trading in this metal will end. The terms of all currencies will change as the use of these moneys is changed. Many will now know true worth as the terms of every asset does find a real
price and a real value in the true world of things. For the future of most, the wealth that was shown in paper will be seen as clouds in the sky!

Thank You

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:14 - ID#403159)
Take off your rose colored glasses. We don't
live in Disneyland where crisis and wars will
never show their ugly heads again. The US
can't police the world forever. If neighbors can't
get along, how are nations going to get along.
What was in the past 20 years is not set in stone
for the next 20 years. At this time we live in a
near perfect world and your typing away like
tomorrow holds the same promise. We hope
it is, but we still need to be aware that things
can turn sour.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:15 - ID#252127)
How about deferred gold sales

What I mean is that gold producers enter into new contracts with suppliers of paper loans that read:
1. All forward sales must be closed out.
2. Production shall be cut by the amount of cash flow that the profit the forward sales bring in and mine employees ( may?? ) be paid in bullion slugs, which can be cashed in at spot. In no case will a group of workers be allowed to loan their gold - A contractural agreement by those accepting slugs.
3. That gold sales ( if any ) will only pay for the total costs a producer may have, while all excess gold will be squirelled away.
4. Suppliers of paper credit will have full rights to an agreed percentage of the squirelled away gold when it is sold at a hopefully much higher price.
This is just a simple idea, that may put a little fear in the purveyors of paper empires.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:20 - ID#261269)
Too cryptic for, I've got a PhD and I don't understand these thoughts ... How about some clear language??

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:20 - ID#403159)
Gold is not an investment, it is insurance.
But since it has become undervalued in
relation to other assets some of us have
over extended ourselves. Just stick with
it because that old dog everbody said
was dead will be that same dog everyone
wants. Look at stocks 1981, you couldn't
give them away.

Lurker 777
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:26 - ID#317247)
Simple Thoughts!
1. CBs are not in the business of losing money. They will stop selling.
2. The Asian currency crises has scared millions of pro-gold buyers/hoarders and they will buy.
3. Warren Buffet legitimizes the purchase of PMs and Wall Street will again recommend 10% of your portfolio in gold!
4. When the stock and bond markets fall by more than 15% the American public will buy gold.
5. Any large foreign terrorist attack will make the masses FEAR and buy gold.

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:29 - ID#403159)
In one of your old posts from 3 months ago you
said that time is very short and one may not be able
to purchase of gold after 1/98. Have you been
baffled by the events recently to keep gold down?
What might be your thoughts in this time? Thanking
you in advance and always appreciate your input.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:31 - ID#283199)
U.S. gold reserves
Can anybody calculate the current gold backing percentage of th U.S. currency so I can put the EMU into perspective ?

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:31 - ID#294232)
No War could be BULLISH FOR GOLD!
While many fear a sharp drop in the pog I choose to stay the contrarian path and that is if Gold holds the $295.00 level for the next couple of days the shorts will begin to feel very uncomfortable! It is my humble
opinion that the pog had already discounted the no war scenario and the
selling pressure will not be as significant as previously stated. The Aussies are known for their knee-jerk reactions, let us see if Japan look at the same way! Somehow I doubt it! Just one mans thoughts.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:35 - ID#401349)
Your 2020. The problem is your Phd.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:38 - ID#258129)
Sometimes I am asking myself...
@Mr. Mick, 20:07
Please, take me right. Sometimes I am asking myself: why do I play PM? There is no rational answer. In long term: Take any significant bourse in the world. In long term ( 20 - 30 years ) it outperform any commodity and Gold ( it is questionable, is Gold commodity or not ) . Even when the crash happened, in a few years it is recovered and in a big plus. Whole bourses history proofs that. Any country, any long period of time. Count yourself. Take for example Dow.
In middle or short term - well, that means, one want to buy something and the sell ( underline SELL ) at higher price- it is about making money because of volatility of something. Higher the volatility, bigger the profit. How volatile is gold compare to paper? Less. Much less. 1% deviation is normal, 2 or even 3% is taken as rally - imagine - gold has risen $10 in a few days - rally - isnt it? Compare with paper. Compare with one of our local companies - Philips: summer 1996 - about NLG 60, last august - 170, now ( after going down to 120 together with SE markets ) - 150. Thats middle term.
In short term - I do options and thats my favorite - it does not matter, where it goes, if it goes somewhere and is not standing still. One is free to play both directions - up and down. Both deliver. Higher the volatility is, higher the result.
So, why do I play PMs? I sure have no answer to this question. It is not in calculation. According to calculations, it is better to play paper. It is irrational, may by grand-grand-parents memory.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:38 - ID#60253)
Date: Sun Feb 22 1998 20:29
Heavy Hitter ( ANOTHER ) ID#403159:

Mr. Hitter,
I must wait to answer all questions! I will save and reply, as much is in "progress" as we speak!

Thank you

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:41 - ID#403159)
Thank you. I will be waiting !
Right now I think all of us need
all the help we can get.

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:47 - ID#403159)
5 good reasons, but we still can't
get the gains. Here I sit on the
edge of my seat like most here.
2 years from now I hope I don't
look back and kick myself dead.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:47 - ID#401460)

%? Let's see $50,000,000,000,000.00 : 80 tons Gold

How many US$ have they printed?
How much Gold do they have remaining in US control.
How many derivatives have been bought and sold.
How much does the IMF owe the US, and how many more US$ does the US have to print to cover the new IMF commitments.

I have no idea and I doubt if any one else does,


The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:49 - ID#294232)
There is no reason to panic at this point as we have no clear indication what the pog will do. Perhaps just perhaps we will see this as the turning point for gold. If the price dips simply thank the powers that be
for the opportunity to steal more at less than three hundred! What Another is trying to tell us is the sentiment is about to change and none of us have an idea of why. Will Japan begin selling U.S. treasuries and replace them with gold? Who knows? What we do know is the price sooner or later will breakout in a big way!

Lurker 777
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:50 - ID#317247)
Another will $280 hold?
Date: Sat Jan 10 1998 21:03
Hear me now, "if gold tries to go lower than US$ $280 the BIS will buy it OUTRIGHT in the OPEN for all to see"! They must! They will! I know. For no currency system could stand if "Oil" were to bid for gold!

You were correct! Does $280 still hold as a bottom?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:52 - ID#368244)
The U.S. government has gold reserves = to 1.666 % of it's national debt
These are very quick figures but maybe it will give you a hint of the solid backing of our U.S. dollar.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:53 - ID#26669)
Hello, boys and girls, can you spell 'trade deficit'? I thought this was a pretty concise little bit of prose. Going to bed early. G'night.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:54 - ID#224363)
I like many others find it difficult to follow the twists and turns of your dialog. Perhaps in some of those rather obtuse statements there are morsels of fact but what exactly they are I can not tell.

I think it is interesting that the 'lesser' central banks have sold gold. Is this due to ignorance, incompetence, or a heart-felt belief that a stronger tie to the $US is good ? Unfortunately I have no answers.

Of much more interest are the repeated statements of 'intent' to sell gold. Unlike some of the others on this site, I tend not to follow conspiracy theories. ButI must admit that these statements seem to hint at either a conspiracy to keep prices low or an astonishingly poor misunderstanding of trading.

I include our good friends the Swiss in the above group and I simply can not believe that they are that stupid given their history. It is also interesting that the United States has been quiet through all of this. And what about the Chinese ?

Is their a link between oil and gold ? Perhaps. Oil is the fuel that powers the world. What are interesting scenario we would see if the regimes that control the flow of oil could manage to put aside their differences and reach common ground. What would the value of gold be then ?

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:55 - ID#403159)
I am over my head with P.M.'s. The stock
market soaring through the sky only makes
you feel like, well you know. This month
is always poor for commodities, so I am
hoping things turn around in March.

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:57 - ID#294232)
We will not see $280.00 Gold nor will we see $285.00 Gold! Donot be surprised to see Gold start to gain momentum here. You have forgotten the one characteristic of gold that is constant. It never does what you expect it will do! LOOK FOR A BREAKOUT IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:57 - ID#222231)
No one understands Nostradamus either. Maybe ANOTHER is him reincarnate. No offense meant ANOTHER.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 20:58 - ID#258129)
Signing off
It is almost 3 am in Amsterdam...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:01 - ID#401460)
Isure (mjb4u)

Isure what total Gold and total currency figures are you using - if you don't mind supplying them it would be appreciated.

And are they confirmed actual amounts?

I keep seeing a total Gold figure in the paper which has not changed in months.


The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:06 - ID#294232)
Heavy Hitter Patience Is A Virtue!!!!!!!
Especially when you have positioned yourself at or near the bottom. This goes for stocks as well as commodities. Ask yourself would you rather be holding IBM looking for upside gains or would you rather be holding GOLD? Where is the risk? To me all paper is at very risky levels with much more downside risk than i could deal with, so I positioned myself in Gold and now I will wait for the day that all my baby boomer friends realize that gold is a must in their investment portfolios. Or perhaps the day when the Mutual Fund Industry Unwinds!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:12 - ID#368244)
@ Highrise

I am using a national debt figure of 5.5 trill., this figure has nothing to do with total money supply . I doubt the U.S. government could supply an accurate number. The total gold held by the U.S. is 1100 millon oz. as per the Federal reserve report dated June 97.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:13 - ID#411149)
The Hatt- My chart agrees with you. Better get'em bought.
Up, Up and away!

Tally Ho

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:17 - ID#330175)
"I must wait to answer all questions"

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:20 - ID#330175)
BillD................April Gold down 1.30 @ 297.40
Don't worry you're not alone ( but who wants to understand that BS? )

A GoldTrader
(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:21 - ID#21455)
Is there Gold in Fort Knox
Is there any evidence that all of our Gold has not been leased out?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:23 - ID#28594)
Surprise, Surprise (not)--but a new --and useful--word for us!
Hong Kong Business Standard, Mon Feb 23, 1998

G7 nations slammed for inaction

THE world's seven most powerful economies have been severely criticised for their lack of concrete action, with Japan being singled out for not doing enough to pull Asian nations out of dire financial straits.

Analysts in Asia issued their harsh attack following the conclusion of the Group of Seven ( G7 ) summit in London.

``It's just the usual load of CODSWALLOP,'' Peter Churchouse, managing director at Morgan Stanley Asia said.

Attention: Let us please remember this word: CODSWALLOP

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:26 - ID#368244)

Excuse the bad math 6.66% , I hate that number, seems to be popping up a lot lately.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:28 - ID#348286)
So SADDAM will let the inspectors in and the USA with it's guns cocked
will have to go home, FRUSTRATED! Pity, all them new fandangled high tech TNT poppers running on Windows/95 will have to power down, and wait for another day.
The focus will now shift back to Billy-Bob and the critter still stuck in his pants. Lots of Starr witnesses still to come and some hard answers
that are not so forth coming from the Oval Bedroom........

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:30 - ID#403159)
EB RE: 17:57 POST
EB, Think for a minute.Try I know it's hard.
Now get your panties out and unravel
them. A week ago you posted long
platinum. Now I'm not going to dig up
the proof out of who knows how many
posts just so you can get your panties
out of a wad. But, who knows maybe
there is a misunderstanding.
But, next time don't come out screaming
like a baby Ebony Boy. Homie don't
play that game.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:31 - ID#222231)
After much contemplation of NOSTRADAMUS'S ( ANOTHERS THOUGHTS ) IMHO ANOTHER is trying to tell us a currency war is about to emerge. This war is between the current currency of choice, the US$ and a currency that is backed by gold. Who or what has the power to corner the gold market? It seems to me that maybe, just maybe, some oil interests hold a lot of gold chips and are about ready to cash them in with which to install a new currency which will be above reproach. Once this currency is on board, everything will show it's true relationship in worth to gold. No more low oil prices, shennagins, devaluations, inflation or debasements will happen because a currency backed by gold can have no peer. The gold control by CB's will stop, for the dollar will surely sink like proverbial gold to the bottom of the ocean and gold will soar to the moon. Could the new Dinar have anything to do with this? Will the Superpowers let them do this without a fight. I DO'NT THINK SO. They may corner the gold market and start a new currency, but unless they have the military might to stop the West, this new currency may be a moot thought. ANY THOUGHTS ANOTHER OR ANYONE?

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:32 - ID#403159)

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:33 - ID#22956)
Upside down
I think you guys have your charts turned upside-down. There is one direction for gold next week.....just one.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:34 - ID#31868)
The currency wars don't need Another as a cheerleader.

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:43 - ID#403159)
Run the stops EB is short.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:44 - ID#411149)
EB- what about silver? I would really would like a down week on gold and an up week for silver, you reckon?? Jeffrey Christian of the CPM group interview on CNBC predicted an up week for silver?

Tally Ho

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:44 - ID#222231)
tolerant1-You speak with forked tongue
Come on tolerant1, do'nt chicken out, give me a straight answer to my query.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:48 - ID#22956)
Hitting Heavily on the bottle...
You are one strange breed of cat. Go to search the archives for my post. It does not exist. And as far as shorting the plat market, you don't have the brass ones for it. And as far as anyones nickers getting all balled-up around here......well, it is quite obvious to all who needs to dig 'em out of his crack.

btw, exactly when did you short the market? The day and the price and the profit. This will give me an indication of where to search for my alleged 'long Plat' post. ....yeah right, you shorting Platinum.......I'm falling outta my chair.......... ( more Heavy Baloney ) .......

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:49 - ID#348286)


Reporter building West Coast connection


"No one at the White House or anyone acting on behalf of the White House or any of President Clinton's private attorneys has hired or authorized any private investigator to look into the background of Mr. DiGenova, Ms. Toensing, investigators, prosecutors or reporters."

White House press secretary Mike McCurry in a statement quickly issued after DiGenova told Russert on MEET THE PRESS that investigators were hired to delve into the lives of he and his wife, former Bush administration official Victoria Toensing.

DiGenova has been a regular television commentator on MSNBCCNBCNBC where he's been highly critical of the President's handling of the Lewinsky crisis.

DiGenova asserted on MTP that he had been informed by a reporter "that word had gotten around town that I and my wife... were being investigated by a private investigator with links to the White House and the attorneys representing the president."

He added, "If the White House is condoning the investigation of private citizens, looking into their lives ... that is truly a frightening, frightening development."

DiGenova said reporters told him Investigative Group Inc. [IGI], headed by Terry F. Lenzner, is doing the digging.

Has DiGenova been given bad information?

Or could "friends of the White House" really be going for dirt on DiGenova, Peter Baker & Sue Schmidt of the WASHINGTON POST, Jeff Gerth & Stephen Labaton of the NEW YORK TIMES, Drudge, Michael Isikoff at NEWSWEAK, Jackie Judd of ABC NEWS and others?

McCurry called DiGenova's assertions "blatant lies," but who might be bankrolling these investigations?

Readers of this report log on for answers!

The DRUDGE REPORT has learned from several sources directly involved with the situation that one reporter who apparently "shared" with DiGenova is busy preparing a deep and detailed print story on the situation.

Publication date: not known, but one well-placed source in Washington says the reporter will show that the money for investigators is coming from California, from one extremely wealthy person who has spent private time with Clinton.

It's a turn that promises to rock media circles as well as the grand jury.

One East Coast publishing source says the reporter is also zeroing in on a senior White House official who may be acting as a "go-between" -- coordinating with "The Purse" and PIs digging around in the field.

FOOTNOTE: Editors at the WASHINGTON POST have some fun with the "White House Denies Hiring PIs" story on Monday when reported-targets Peter Baker and Sue Schmidt are the very ones assigned to do cover DiGenova's MEET THE PRESS claims!

Baker & Schmidt end their piece on a curious beat. Without any build or background they dump: "Mickey Kantor, who represents Clinton as a lawyer in the Lewinsky matter, refused to say whether he has hired [IGI's] Lenzner."




(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:50 - ID#32078)
gold direction
Last week every gold fund was down.

The long term bond rate is trending down at 5.81%.
The dollar is moving up, 127+ yen.
Silver has let air out of its balloon.
Every gold stock I watch lost last week.
Johannesburg gold index lost all week.

Boys and girls, the gold stock trend for two weeks has been down and unless something unpredictable happens is still down.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:51 - ID#31868)
I thought it was pretty plain. go to golden-eagle and read. Gold Newsletter as well as J. Taylor and a ton of others that have written for some time now about the currency crisis looming on the horizon.

Another wins no paricular cheer leading prize here at Cuervo Central.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:57 - ID#187218)
I had asked a question a few days back of which I did not see a reply: How do U get your creditors to accept transcations from your e-gold account, such as, mortgage, taxes, utilities, etc ??

(Sun Feb 22 1998 21:58 - ID#401460)
Isure (Highrise)
Yes I am seeing those numbers alot - on each of my credit cards. $6,666.66 portends the end of my world, soon, if Gold doesn't go up there are going to be 4 guys on horses at the door - Visa, Master Card, Discover and Optima.
And my wife is going to be upset when she has to clean up after those horses. There is no end to the problems that a low Gold price creates.

Again what numbers are you using to arrive at this %. I would like to have them for future use to compare with newsprint articles etc.



(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:01 - ID#31868)
WetGold and I promptly responded
Date: Sat Feb 21 1998 14:16
WetGold ( @tolerant1,,, ) ID#243180:

How do u get your creditors to accept a transaction from your e-gold account, such as, mortgage, utilities, etc... ?


Date: Sat Feb 21 1998 14:27
tolerant1 ( WetGold ) ID#31868:

At present I utilize it as a method of savings. The various people and entities that have accounts can transact with each other. Currently I seek to build holdings, not spend. The Federal Reserve wallpaper still spends. I have zero debt and no rent. Buy gold and silver and hold is my motto.

The system is growing. Eventually I think you will find various entities will cater to e-gold and you will then be able to handle any and all transactions world wide.

Remember it is strictly an international system of payments and has nothing to do with banking. The gold is yours, period. Once more and more people figure out that gold and silver are the only trustworthy methods of payment the system will grow. ( platinum and palladium available as well )

I suggest you write to and fire away all manner of questions.

Quixotic 1
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:02 - ID#48200)
"When at War,the truth is surrounded by an army of lies and rumors"
Heard on CBS this morning !!

I was watching a Q & A with Sec. Cohen this morning, In response to a query about rhetoric & rumors, Sec. Cohen quoted Winston Churchill, "When at war, the truth is surrounded by an army of lies and rumors". IMHO, we have been at war in the uSA ( small u intentional ) , since about 1907. Ever since the Mint included "In God We Trust" on our money/currency, the economic and social battles for our heritage and freedom have been lost with every government indicator, statistic, election and press release.
One of the biggest risks that "We the People" face today, is our current administration in search of a legacy. BC won't go down without a PR battle, dragging the country with him.

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:03 - ID#187218)
My humblest apologize... I had not seen it ... too much work ...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:03 - ID#17796)
Any believers out there? This last post is nothing but a restatement of prior posts. Currency of today is not wealth but a medium of exchange which will be swept aside by Saudi cashing in it's gold IOU's. The CB's are short the gold lent out and can not lend further because the lent gold was bought by S.E. Asians, unexpectantly. Is this truth? Will the massive derivatives outstanding come home to roost? Got me! What is true is that gold supply is less than demand. The only question I have is whether to only hold the physical rather than the options, future contracts and gold mining shares. Is this a ruse of a seller of gold coins or bullion? Who knows. However, if gold rockets and so does the $US together with long term interest rates I'm looking real hard at just the physical. Come guess along with us all. It is darkest before the sunrise. Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:03 - ID#22956)
Don't really know. However, I will go with the group and say long silver. I have built a few option strategies that are conservative and should net me a few bucks. I may put in an order on Monday ( maybe ) . Fridays 'correction' was good.

...did ya hear that Heavy-Booze-Drinker? It is time to place your shorts on Monday opening. You should short several contracts and forget about placing any don't need 'em.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:04 - ID#401460)

Man!, you know how to depress a guy!


PS: The Gold chart just formed a bottom M formation a sure sign that Gold will soon go throught the roof.

Dreamin, dreamin, dre..a..m..i..n

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:06 - ID#31868)
No problem, did not mean ta snap at ya if it sounded that way. Not my intention - reading a bunch of stuff all at once here myself. gulp, a shot of Cuervo's finast at ya.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:09 - ID#401460)

Thanks, I just saw your post with the info.
Sorry for my slowness in seeing the post.


Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:13 - ID#403159)
Don't fall too hard. We don't need anyone
getting hurt over it. I wonder if you do have
a chair in the house, or did you lose that too.
Always picking on gold. Anything that sleeps
like gold you find an easy prey. I can't even
imagine who or what you might be taking
advantage of. Please I don't want to know.
I'll throw up my insides.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:16 - ID#401460)
Isure (mjb4u)

Isure, your currency total is the National debt. Shouldn't we be using the total amount of US$ in circulation? And the amount of Gold in US vaults to back it up?


Quixotic 1
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:18 - ID#48200)
Time to "Wag the Dog". Remember war and truth !!
Pete your 21:31

IMHO, this is the real reason for the military presence in the ME. This so-called "threat" from Iraq is the justification ( read: smoke screen ) , for our troop deployments to the ME. SH and Iraq could have been taken out along time ago. It's in Washington's best interest to maintain this marginal situation, until they need an excuse to "Wag the dog".

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:24 - ID#401460)

1,100,000,000.00 ozs @ $5,500,000,000,000.00 = $5000/ ounce

This is just the National Debt!
What is the real interest rate on those Bonds?
Currency Crises Looming?


PS: CK the math I have screwed up with this many decimal places before.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:26 - ID#22956)
as I STRANGE breed of cat. Takes all kinds. I am no match for you. UNCLE...

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:26 - ID#17796)
Does China contol the fate of the world. Revalue to gold? Devalue to the $US. Do nothing and collapse. Any thoughts, anyone. Tom

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:31 - ID#270315)
To All:
Don't be surprised that instead of weapons UN Inspectors will find enormous stock piles of gold, and don't be surprised if we the peoplke of NOrth America are the last to hear about it.

The Central Bankers, the high ranking, Finance Ministers, The President of the United States of America, and even Allan Greenspan cannot, even if he wanted to, warn us of the euphoric rise to occur in the price of Gold.

So make sure you are on the right side of the ship because when the captain turns the wheel it's going to be a 180 degree turn, and all of those not prepared are going to be in some pretty deep mand shark infested waters.

Heavy Hitter
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:32 - ID#403159)
22:03 post. Why do you have to be taught
like a child. When you place your stops you
will get stopped out. I guess I have to consider
the source. Your still learning how to crawl.
One day we have to wean you off the bottle
and take out those diaper pins. Cry for your
mother , boy.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:39 - ID#227290)
Pete & Currency Wars
I agree with your point about the West not allowing the oil states to launch a gold-backed currency without a fight.
And I agree that they would need military muscle to defend themselves if they took such an action.
Now if they went in league with the Asians, that would change the equation. Also, the Asians might have the muscle to pull it off.
Otherwise, the only route to a gold-backed currency is for severe economic weakness to manifest itself in the U.S. rendering it militarily hampered.
That's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. And it may happen sooner than we think.
But for now, the Dow is up, up, and away. It will be interesting to see if the dollar and the bonds follow.

The Preacher

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:39 - ID#335190)
Indonesia @ Gold
February 22, 1998
FOCUS-New contracts fillip for Indonesian mining

JAKARTA, Feb 23 ( Reuters ) - The Indonesian government has announced a fresh round of 38 mining contracts that will allow foreign firms to develop gold, silver, nickel and diamond deposits in this sprawling mineral-rich archipelago.

"The event is a strong signal that Indonesia is open to foreign participation in this important sector," said Canada's Ambassador to Indonesia Gary Smith.

"Of the 38 contracts, fifteen directly involve Canadian mining and exploration interests," he said in a statement last week. The proposals have been carefully vetted to avoid any repeat of last year's fiasco involving Canada's Bre-X Minerals which claimed the gold find of the century in Indonesia, only for it to turn out to be a costly fraud.

"We carefully select the applicants because we don't want situations like the Busang case happening again," said Mines and Energy Minister Ida Bagus Sudjana.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:40 - ID#267276)
If you follow washington, congress etc. you will notice that the U.N. has not been able to get its funding from congress even though clinton keeps promising it. The showdown with iraq does the following: 1 ) Makes clinton look strong willed. 2 ) takes the media away from monica. 3 ) the agreement will make the U.N. look indispensable. 4 ) put pressure on congress to fund the U.N. our hero. 5 ) give clinton more hope on funding the IMF bailout. This only makes sense as the goings on in washington have screenwriters that would make hollywood look bad. If clinton were to attack iraq it would jepordize any popularity he has and possibly alianate the U.S. from many other countries. This does not make sense. BUT if it were to happen it would be from pressure from Israel and or London. Clinton may already be the victim of blackmail. I believe the first senerio of a settlement is the one.

Lurker 777
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:40 - ID#317247)
Do you know anything about this 7000 Tons of gold for sale?

Go to:

Then select Currencies & Precious Metals and scroll down to:
RE: SELL 7000 Mt Au Program
This offer is sanitized. Once the prospective Buyer has reviewed this offer and agrees to the Seller's procedures, a Full Corporate Offer will be issued by the seller ( Bullion Bank/Switzerland ) , directly to the buyer, under penalty of perjury.Sanitized Corporate Au Offer PRODUCT: AU Metal ( Gold ) QUANTITY: 7,000 ( Seven Thousand ) Metric Tons, all at once. all at once. PRICE: LME with discount of 4% Gross and 3% Net.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:40 - ID#224363)

Modern industrial China is a relatively new phenomena. Keep in mind that this is an immense country ( population-wise ) that is still for the most part, populated with peasant farmers. It also helps to remember that the country is ruled by men from Mao's era.

As a nation, they are proud and practical. They envy the wealth of the United States but are fiercely independant. A currency devaluation, unless executed properly, would cause much face to be lost.

China, the sub-continent, and the middle-east may represent the future of gold. You will find it nearly impossible to locate a Chinese person who does not own 24k gold ( usually jewelry ) .

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:44 - ID#294232)
The Fact Is Gold Did Not Crash Unless You See $1.30 As A CRASH!
Lets not lose sight of the fact that Gold will always outlast paper!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:45 - ID#153102)
There are errors in your reasoning.

If private parties started purchasing gold with the trillions of private $ in the world, no forward sale with spot deferred clause program could work because when you pays your $, you wants your gold. Deferred delivery is a sure sign of short supply. Markets ration supply with price.

So, the chief danger to this forward sale plan was private demand. And hasn't that been the target of all of the disinformation and propaganda over the last two years ? A well known mining figure in Davos asks for European CB assurances on the sale of gold when the evidence suggests the USG has a forward sale agreement with the company that it is using to dump on the LME in advance of production. Was that a public fraud. Do you understand what massive lying the USG is engaged in ? Do you think this is secret to other governments ? Do you trust liars ?

You and everyone else accepts paper in the expectation that the next person will accept it. Governments have used the death penalty to enforce fiat paper. Even death threats will not prevail when confidence evaporates. And between governments death threats have no effect at all.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:48 - ID#227290)
KMTMAN & Iraqi Gold

I'm not following your thinking here. What if they find hoards of gold in the Iraqi palaces? Then what happens to help the price of gold?

The Preacher

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:48 - ID#28594)
As Gertrude would have said, A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie.

We forget--because it is difficult to so focus the mind that Belief is the END of a thought process...

When ones debts are called in, one moves to collect from what is due from ones own accounts receivable yes?


Yet, US CREDITORS will drown in codswallop ( knew Id need that word ) before quite reasonably asking WHAT IS DUE THEM?

And, the perception is that, SOMEHOW, the US is going to save the IMF, save Asia, straighten out Japan ( poor wretches, with a TRADE SURPLUS, by gar ) , have an economy obviously under TinkerBelles protection, and a market that will grow a minimum of 10% in really BAD years ... and the most desired currency in the history of the world... Does this sound plausible to you?

There is NO WAY, since the advent of the Euro-dollar ( with ironic nod to the Russian Narodny Bank ) all those years ago...absolutely no way the US has any quantitative data on how many trillion are out there. There is no fractional reserve on EURO-dollars...get in $1000, lend out a $1000, etc., etc., etc.

To whomever asked about how much GOLD backing the US dollar had--
None! Zilch! Nought! Zero! Its just a little piece of paper that Al and Bob try VERY HARD to keep away from from any open flame!

Time to go out in the garden, me thinks! {:- (

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:53 - ID#294232)
Shorters are takind advantage of any dips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spike down, spike up, spike down, spike up! The shorters were hoping for a massive sell-off here and did not get it. That is why buying on the dips in the gold market has caught on!

(Sun Feb 22 1998 22:55 - ID#17155)
US, Land of the Free?! What a JOKE!!!
We have talked many times about the subject here:
1. US does not have real money anymore
2. US does not have real elections
3. US does not have freedom of speech

I have just found a really juicy item to prove point three. As you know, anybody in the US who dares to say that US Congress and US foreign policy are skewed by powerful Jewish lobby is instantly labeled an anti-Semite, bigot, racist, fascist, white-supremacist, etc., etc. The subject is considered a taboo of the highest caliber and is rarely discussed by Americans. ( PC Rules )

Well, it appears that now many Israeli and European Jews consider this influence to be dangerous, disruptive, and directly leading to BARBARISM in the Middle East. Do not take my word for it, here is what Jerusalem Post editorial writes:

"Gullible consumers of nationalistic propaganda, they lap from whatever pool of lies they are led to. In New York, Boston, and Chicago, many blithely dip into their pockets to provide funds for extremist elements who perpetrate odious acts of barbarism.

In the United States, in particular, the vicarious patriots wield disproportionate influence. The State Department may have little time for them but they have powerful friends in Congress and fund one of the most significant lobbies in Washington. On this issue even liberals such as Edward Kennedy and conservatives such as Ronald Reagan have always been at one. No American politician, it seems, can safely avoid commitment."

I think apologies are in order here to all the so called "Anti-Semites" in the US. How come Israeli press is much, much more open on the subject than US press?!

The Hatt
(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:02 - ID#294232)
S.H. is playing America like a violin!!!!!
The last two rounds have been S.H. all the way. Will there be a round three?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:06 - ID#24563)
Return of the Dinar
Return to a gold standard-an Islamic view. My apologies if this URL has already been posted.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:06 - ID#31868)
The Jew is an excellent administrator. Oh and they believe the end justifies the means.

Remember the Irgun, pleasant people those.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:14 - ID#153102)
During the currency destruction of the mark in the 1920's, it took the German people ten months to realize their currency had no value after inflation started to runaway.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:14 - ID#270315)
If the Iraqis' and the Arab nations control both oil and Gold, you can expect the price of both to adjust accordingly.

What I am saying is that Gold has been hiding behind oil for the past year, and that instead of food for oil it ahs been Gold for oil, and of course we will bwe the last to know or find out about it.

Someone had to be buying all of the central bank sales in the past twelve months, and who has deeper pockets than the Arab Nations, but instead of using paper they have been using oil to buy it ( Gold ) .

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:17 - ID#28594)
It must have been a VERY difficult G8--if this is the best they could come up with!
FT, Mon Feb 23, 1998

G8: Ministers commit to fight unemployment
By Robert Taylor, Robert Chote and Wolfgang Mnchau

An international programme to promote jobs and combat unemployment and
social exclusion was agreed yesterday by the governments of eight of the
world's most powerful economies.
COMMENT--There is something bizarre about "8 most powerful" which includes Italy and Russia but not China!

It is the first time such an international conference has sought to integrate economic and social policies to tackle unemployment.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:19 - ID#318118)
@ SDRer_A, your 18:08
I've been through enough resecessions and talked to others who have experienced worse to come up with the "cash is king" statement. In deflationary periods of the past here in the U.S. one of the first things experienced by the populace is a loss of jobs. The families without income soon lose their cars, homes and dignity. Those who have saved and not lost their savings in bank and other savings institution debacles have opportunities to buy at wholesale or less. In severe recessions such as the early thirties the ratio of have-nots to haves became very steep. Whether gold would have protected the unfortunate ones is anybodys guess. Most people today have very little, if any, net worth after you clear all of their debt. I firmly believe we are headed into a depression that will make the "30's" look like good times. I have no doubt that some physical gold is a must for those who can afford it.
Alot of those who suffered through the 30's have saved through the 40's-70's and beyond. They did that because they suffered for not doing it much earlier and don't want to go through it again. Some of my relatives who experienced the depression and later past on were found to have money stashed in mattresses, in various places in basements and even in walls.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:20 - ID#224363)

Russia has cuddled up to the G7 ( especially the US ) in last 10 years and is now a 'friend'. China has essentially ignored the G7 and the United States and is still publicly viewed as a rogue state.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:21 - ID#401460)

I don't get it?

Reagan and Kennedy are Irish Catholic not Jewish.

Are you saying that the Jews and Catholics are teaming up against you?

Hummm .m


(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:26 - ID#224149)
another thought
Another-I know a good juice women, tea reader that is who can for ten buckets give you a great Gold reading if she fails donuts and coffee on the house only stipulation you must be over 16 and not live at home. Hope you qualify.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:27 - ID#330175)
S+P Futures + April Gold
S+P futures up 4.20 and April Gold down 1.70 @ 2-9-7

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:29 - ID#17155)
You are right, the Irgun story is really something to tell, and not less important than the Nazi crimes. ( You can read about it in the Jewish Defense League site: )

I, personally, do not care much about dirty deads of nations ( they all have stories in the closet ) . What bothers me is a supression of freedom of expression. If you cannot discuss a problem, the problem escalates. We live in the age of total ignorance ( financial, economical, historical, political, you name it ) , and the Political Correctness is to blame.

I was amazed to hear peple calling a radio program and complaining about Blanchard commercials ( He is trying to sell GOLD, imagine THAT!!! )

Do you remember the stigma associated with the Krugerands?

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:29 - ID#330175)
He don't

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:30 - ID#401460)


I have been looking for info comparing our time to the currency problems in Germany during the 20's & 30's.

10 months from when, in relation to what year ?

Do you know where I can find some more info on those times in Germany.


(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:39 - ID#57232)
Gold bear post Iraq deal - agreed, but very weak
EB: Did you say Kitco is bullish on gold? That's not clear to me - I think many of us are bearish short term --- but I think you are saying you will short gold tomorrow. I think you will be disappointed by gold's weak bearish behavior.
There is only one scenario that would make gold drop precipitously -- and that is a real threat to the US equity markets where AG must pull out all the stops.
I think most parties honestly thought we would bomb Iraq, but that it would be a ho-hum type of event, and we would not have the kind of difficulties that make gold skyrocket anyway.
My intuitive guess is that gold will go down, but it will not test $280. We will have another buying opportunity.

BC's xxxgate problems will heat up -- there are apparently 14 or so women that will or have testified about having sexual relations with BC in the WhiteHouse, and 4 or 5 rumored to be active at the time on the Monica episode. Also -- why did Monica get a high-level security clearance as an intern? His former close associates are distancing themselves. Just a matter of timw now for this to unravel. This will certainly be bullish for gold.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:39 - ID#28594) --Thank you for your response. Gives one pause, does it not?

PMF@China.Watching --Perhaps you would enjoy reading this brief ( 4-5 pages ) article: "A New Chinese Empire?" by NODO Nobuo? Quite interesting.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:51 - ID#330175)
Yeah,EB--------what did YOU

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:54 - ID#153102)
The year was 1923.
Monetary Control Act of 1980 authorized the Federal Reseve to purchase and monetize debt securities issued by private corporations, banks, municipalities, States, etc.

(Sun Feb 22 1998 23:59 - ID#224363)
Thank you SDRer__A...
Thank you for the interesting read.

I honestly don't know what role China will play in economy of the future nor do I know if military intervention will ever play a role in that region.

I have always found it amazing how the demands of mainland China have resulted in an almost complete denial of political recognition for Taiwan throughout the world. It is almost as if the western world doesn't dare bait the Chinese dragon.