Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:00 - ID#330175)

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:01 - ID#153102)

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:02 - ID#31868)
Most welcome. There is also a site that you should look at. I have tried to get in just a moment ago and it would not go though for me.

It is an excellent cross reference with the other site you noted. It does kinda get your blood boiling. I mean when you read about confiscation and such and how the government has just jumped on someone and ruined their lives.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed going there. Try that other site or go back to it tomorrow, they may be down working on it.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:03 - ID#261352)
@ silver @ $10.00. I saw it in a vision today...and gold at 375...Was I dreaming?
I'm gonna buy 30,000 shares of SSC, don't tell my wife.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:04 - ID#242249)
Here is my E-mail address, I would like to have a more freindly conversation with you and make you less sick with your Kelloggs french Box.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:07 - ID#288155)
JTF--We certainly find ourselves in a strange twilight zone sorta place!
Should we stand up in the theatre and yell, "Fire!" knowing full well
the only attention we will receive is from the local constabulary as they haul us away for disturbing the peace... Yet, don't we feel uncomfortable ( at the very BEST ) as we watch each of the fissures,first appear, then widen, and we wait for the deluge...
The times are interesting, but wretchedly difficult my friend. Whilst
you're here, my thanks for your words in last night's melee. You never disappoint either! Sleep well. {:- )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:09 - ID#234218)
Re@Tolerant1&Studio R
Thanks for the info. Studio R, sure wish I could cash in my 401k. Your lucky. GOOD MOVE!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:10 - ID#31868)
If I might be so bold, please take a look at Clifton Mining and First Silver Reserve - CFB and FSR - before you plunk down that kind of change.

Just a suggestion, but one I think you will appreciate. I was turned on to both of these stocks by the GOLDBUG who you can find on golden-eagle.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:11 - ID#335190)
Ted & Kristine: There are no proper words, to express my thoughts and spiritual feelings. I wish you, and Kristine, success.

Yes, we also have been touched by these challenges. Yes, there have been positive results. Have a Canadian/Classic on me. Yes, you are buying.: ) : ) : )
Take Care.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:12 - ID#20137)
Does anyone ( Silverbaron, Arden, Realistic,... ) have today's comex stocks changes for gold or silver.

All I get at future is the values for the 24th.

Thanks in advance.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:13 - ID#153102)
Read the IRA agreement. Read the tax law. Think it through. It is their money and their account to make the rules for.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:14 - ID#173274)
@the scene
PH in LA -- There is only ONE realistic break, or line in the sand that CAN BE drawn! IF they want TRUE backing, it MUST be one for one; I.E. each unit of currency MUST be redemable for a given unit of metal. Else, it is futile! Given that ALL currencies in the Western sphere are 'debt' laden, I.E., loaned into existence, there is NO cure except to forbid the 'practice', and any form of pseudo 'gold backing' will not amount to any form of reform otherwise. We MUST get rid of usury in all of its lending forms to progress!!! There IS NO ALTERATIVE! Else, we smother and die! I only hope that in that last scenario that ALL politicians and regulators are left to to onto themselves!!!!! HAR!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:17 - ID#93232)
@Wednesday night's pillow....
The soft touch of the rum will nicely rest my head...and now....G'night to all.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:17 - ID#242249)
James be FAIR
Quebec is absolutly not what you describe in 1970 Laporte SAD event in our history.
Do you realy see things that way...?????.

You are scarring me...To think like that...We are not out of the wood if it is so...
I am sure you do not meant it,.. in this CANADA with the best quotation ever by the United Nation Org.
...Several years in a row...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:19 - ID#57232)
I should be asleep -- one last post
SDRer: Thanks for your kind comments. I have two friends at work that know a very small percentage of what we know at Kitco. Both of them -- very well-educated individuals -- are now saying that gold is going down and the markets are going up -- so I must be overly concerned. January effect, I guess. I have little I can say to counter their arguments in any conversation of any reasonable length.

We at Kitco are still far ahead of the pack, voices in the wilderness with noone else except fellow Kitcoites to talk to. But -- our voices are growing in number.

And I do not wish to be right about what is coming, either -- if that makes any sense.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:19 - ID#411233)
Had the same vision, but just for silver.The squeeze on silver is going to start very soon--Lots of buyers--no sellers! Rumpled is never wrong---err
right hhmmm I can't remember which one just now!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:20 - ID#31868)
You should go to and click on the what is e-gold link. I think you will find a friend there. There is some excellent reading.

I have an account and you can consider this a shameless plug, I love those folks. My kinda money!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:23 - ID#153102)
You can always emigrate to Louisiana and talk Cajun if they don't treat you right in the great white.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:24 - ID#31868)
I think I have a method to get them thinking as per your last post. Just ask them to consider why people feel totally safe keeping thousands and thousands of dollars in banks, but when it comes to metal, everybody wants to have it in their hot little hands.

Add your own twists to it, I am sure you will see the wheels turning.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:28 - ID#153102)
Converts are a bad idea. It will increase the cost of coins. Let them sleep.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:28 - ID#339212)
@ tolerant1 re: 23:34 of liquidating IRAs

Surely one thing to consider before liquidating an IRA is your age. If you are 58 and less than 59 1/2, I see no reason for overreacting to cash in the IRA. If nothing happens to PMs in the next 2 years, the IRA owner will have lost another 10% in tax penalties.

I don't think that liquidation of an IRA close to maturity is the answer. After all, one can protect by buying gold stocks in an IRA.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:31 - ID#20137)
( You got to love their attitude with the IMF )
Wednesday February 25, 11:34 pm Eastern Time

Indonesia ruling party urges decision on currency
``We appreciate input from international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund based on the principle of mutual respect,''
Kamaluddin said.

``But any economic decision including implementation of CBS or other policy is in our hands and based on our own judgement,'' he said.

``That is why we urge the government to soon make a clear decision on the CBS or other policy to direct the rupiah towards 5,000 level as
assumed in the 1998/99 budget,'' he added.

( This ott to be fun )
S.Korea road show on debt rollover begins Friday

( Things must be coming to a head - we are really dumping on the Japanese )
Summers remarks added to a growing chorus of western criticism of Japan's failure to boost domestic demand. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan
Greenspan, when asked on Wednesday if Tokyo was doing enough on the economic front, replied: ``I think not.''

U.S. Commerce Secretary William Daley on Wednesday warned of a possible protectionist backlash in the United States due to a rising trade
deficit and Japan's reluctance to do more to open its markets to the rest of Asia.
``For the United States to not commit itself right now would be like canceling your life insurance right after you got sick,'' Summers said.

"This is not the moment to abandon the IMF," he added.

( These poors guys -- they just keep raking in the money )
Wednesday February 25, 8:04 pm Eastern Time

Japan Feb 10 day surplus up on lower crude prices

Japan's overall imports in the first ten days of February fell 0.1 percent from a year ago while exports rose 12.4 percent, causing the the surplus
to rise 180.3 percent to 224.45 billion yen, the ministry said earlier.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:32 - ID#411233)
@ Tolerant1
Buying tomorrow--Can't decide---SSO or FSR---Opinion, Thanks.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:33 - ID#257148)
Up Periscope

Is it safe?

Hey Carraberra.

"Dont post any derogatory remarks regarding any groups race, religion, or ethnic background."

The most insulting name I can be called is "Australian" . ;- )

You been outed. As always regards to you both, you're both in my thoughts constantly, as you know, amigo.


7000 tons of merde-- Hey, everyone thanks, I cannot believe the add either, it is an interesting mental joust, tilting at windmills---

Well done, lessee what those senators can do..

In meantime, any lurkers, gumshoes, live in St Louis want to knock on a door, send a fax, whatever along the lines of Trinovant's suggestion?

Trinovant ( 7000 Tonnes of GOLD ) ID#358318:
Much speculation has been made regarding the 7000 tonnes GOLD for sale ( which has an email contact at ) .
may be found an entry in the name of:
12685 Dorsett Rd., Suite 132
St. Louis, Missouri 63043. USA
Tel: 314-878-2486
Fax: 314-576-6150
The ISP has an address at 1854 Craig Park Ct.
St. Louis, MO 63142
AVDEC Inc. and both having an address in St. Louis, Missouri, is too good a coincidence. Perhaps someone should call on AVDEC Inc. and ask them if they know anything about 7000 Tonnes of Gold.

Yeah, I saw that too, however I understand that the LME is a gold clearing house for International gold trade ( as opposed to gold paper trade ) so was not put off by this, course could be wrong again.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:33 - ID#242249)
( mozel )
You realy mean what is your words here?.....

Well if it is SO ,Quebec have no way out except to fly by itself, don`t you think?
That is not what I am dreaming about!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:34 - ID#339212)
New coin sales for 1997

The 1,160,000 ozs. minted for sale in the US in 1997 are a great dissapointment. Demand for investment purposes is VERY VERY LITTLE.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:37 - ID#330175)
Aurator----You damn New Zealander!!
Oliver: Your wish is my command ( check your damn )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:43 - ID#210235)
@JTF, re talking to co-workers
All of us who've studied the history of fiat money are in the same boat, talking to bond/stock believers. We didn't see the light all in one day. Don't yell fire in the theater; try a toned-down approach. Usually it's easier to use an incremental approach than "Everything you believe is WRONG", when using persuasion. Instead of completely trashing your personal fiat money, mention how the Koreans are saving their house with GOLD. You don't have to want your house to burn down to buy fire insurance, right? I worry a bit about the folks who are panting to see life as we know it end. Heck, the 20's were a lot more fun than the 30's, Let the good times roll.

Then you can save the rants and raves for the others here who see the patterns. Once you see it, you can't deny it. Just be prepared yourself and try humour, and saying less, letting them come to their own conclusions. Let us know WHAT WORKS!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:43 - ID#423212)
Our thoughts and prayers go out to you and your wife.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:46 - ID#411233)
Anybody ever tell you that Quebec is a have not Province. Ranks right
up there with the Maritimes. Talk going it on your own, trouble with your
native people-call federal for help. Power outages--federal for help. Talk
of a natural gas pipeline running up through the maritimes-Cry federal
that you want it run through Quebec also. Face it, you want to have your
cake and eat it too!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:47 - ID#153102)
On a serious note, look into the constitution of the Swiss Confederation. They've been getting along for 400 years talking different languages and such. But each canton is a Free and Independent State. They associate governmentally for very limited and defined common purposes. Otherwise, they mind their own affairs. It's what America was supposed to be.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:48 - ID#173274)
@the scene
TYoung --- Under current 'statutes' Mozel is correct. And under 'future' statutes, Mozel is even more correct. I.E., get thy 'ass' out of it! Your 'Constitution' will NOT help you under a marshall/military rule that we have technically been under since the Civil war, and more specifically since FDRs first days. EO's are THE current name of the game. They might call them 'directives' these days. Same BS. MOVE thy butt and depend no more on any but you own GOD given rights! And those, you better have at means to defend come hell or high water least HE ........
Simply put, make a righteous type of stash and be prepared to take care of your family. That is rule number one. Rule number two is to look after rule number one to your absolute abilities! Rule number three is then to look after your neighbors and friends.

Man, I HATE this doomsday/Nazi Jack-boot shit! Give me a big sail boat and the Carib! However, I think I would be a 'bit' remiss in not 'mentioning' it happening.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:50 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmm-why not split your purchase and get both? I also suggest taking a look at Clifton CFB they look very strong to me. For what it is worth I am in FSR and CFB.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:52 - ID#257148)
The gentle art of persuasion...Put the wind up 'em....

What works?
Perhaps I can help.. I have tried for years to get some of my friends to understant what we are knowing and learning here. They mocked, partly at my comparatively 'humble' investment returns and lack of obvious assets. For years, no luck, I bought 15 copies of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and passed the books around....nada. THEN
last week I asked 2 of my friends if they knew where the US dollar comes from. When I was able to relate some of the knowledge I have learned here about the private ownership of the Fed, and its control over US$ issue, there were green faces. For the first time I saw fear. It is the fear of paper that will drive the peopleo ( thanx cherodude ) to real assets.
Hope it helps.

Face the fear and buy Gold ( but wait for a bit )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:57 - ID#31868)
Is it me or what, where did England go
on Yahoo. I was just looking for Asia activities, seeing how the markets were doing and scrolled down and no England, did it sink today? I mean the island.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:57 - ID#261352)
@ Promethius...pass the fire brother...Agree with you on Sharefin...Excellent
post. I hope it's 100%.Any thoughts on silver and its'
manipulation? Future interaction with AU?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 00:57 - ID#210235)
@Talking heads
Saw the talking heads on CNBC, one saying how the market would go up another 15 years cause of the boomers putting money into it. Play the demographics, he said. He looked sharp, certain. I knew that if I had no knowledge of history or economics, like so many specialized professionals, I would buy it. I really would. Keep talking, Kitco guys. Farfel may be heavy-handed, but he sure understands what's going down.

G'night, and thanks for being there!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:02 - ID#31868)
Rumpled, I almost forgot, a shameless
plug for the GOLDBUG and his newsletter, EXCELLENT source for info on silver stocks, and you constantly get updates and such right to your email. Honest, straight forward info.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:03 - ID#411233)
@Tolerant1---THANKS---CFB --Will look into it more tomorrow--NITE ALL--

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:04 - ID#261352)
@ Promethius@CNBC Talking Heads...I think the BOOMERS will duck and
cover like any frightened animal when the time comes.Repeat after
me SAVE THE NESTEGG. Did ja see Lost in America? Say hello to

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:06 - ID#257148)
never bin thur, 'sept in ma mine..

Do you remember a few years ago some bru-ha-ha over one of your Vice-Presidents ( I dunno who ) who was a "resident" of Texas through a legal loop-hole so he could claim a lesser income Tax rate?
The storyline was incorporated into the Dunesbury Cartoon which gave the address of the Comptroller of Taxes in Texas ( hey, they're annagrams.. ) So, thinking this was a good lark, ( hi sky! ) I wrote away, and two week later I got my Certificate of Texas Residence. Yep. I am a Resident of Texas.

See, I'm home on the range, Aiiiieeeehaaa

The word is secede, and the sooner Texas secedes from the ROA ( that's Rest of America, like the ROC, Rest of Canada ) the sooner there will be a land of liberty in the Americas...

Yes, I believe Texas should re-assert herself as a republic.


Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:08 - ID#261352)

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:12 - ID#288155)
A. Goose--Indonesia

Der Spiegel has an interesting article on Waigel and Tolerant1s
favorite {:- ) ) visiting with the autocratic one ( as Der Spiegel refers to Suharto ) . Havent finished translating ( or reading ) the article, but will share when I do. [Didnt know there were 200million people in Indonesia!]
From readings this evening, it becomes apparent to me, that IMF Greenspan/CB/Rubin are waging a very important battle in Indonesia. International Herald Trib had a long, glowing article re: HOW WELL Skorea and Thailand were doing under IMF/$$$$ auspices. Battles over all the place, over all manner of issues. I shall be forced to build another darn dB.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:16 - ID#153102)
@aurator @Tolerant1
That was George Herbert Bush of Kennebunkport, Maine and for tax purposes, Houston, Texas.
That's an interesting story. Wonder if that makes you subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Like Noriega.
But, you're right about Texas, every word of it.

@Tolerant1 Forgot to tell you, there were Two definitive Treaties of Paris. The name Sam Huntington is not in the internet and American library version. Nothing about gold and silver in there either. You have to go to England to get a copy of that one. Is the Constitution a contract with the Crown for collection of debt agreed to in the Treaty of Paris ( secret version ) ? I think may be.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:16 - ID#288155)
Forget to say that the reason the 'glowing' IHT made me laugh
was because the night before I had read ( HK paper ) about all the US money that was flowing into those two markets! So they are working every possible angle... C U 2morrow

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:17 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Tolerant -- Unless ALL are aboard, including the governnment, then I cannot consider ANY being aboard. Value HAS TO be 'made' from the top, even though it is already percieved first from the bottom. Seems that governments are always WAY behind the times! 'Tis what one gets with lawyers and bankers in power. Seems that was also said long ago. When will people ever learn. I think often that WE would be much better off with NO MORE than local governance. And THAT being extremely limited. Seems that 'too many' people cannot constrain themselves in their exerburance to constrain others from their own 'fears'! The downfall of 'democracy' into facism and worse, as if there was ever a recourse. And don't anyone EVER equate a democracy equally with a republic! You WILL disgrace yourselves!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:22 - ID#31868)
You may be correct that it may be a secret treaty. I am searching and searching for the piece I mentioned, scouring is more the word. I will find it, i tend to have that bull dog nature about me. I will find it.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:27 - ID#31868)
Eldorado, I see your point, however I
point out that e-gold is a baby yet. And I believe they are way ahead of the curve. In time I believe it will become the standard for the international system of payments.

In addition, I like having an account and helping them build their system in that I am an account holder. You know, putting my money where my mouth is so-to-speak.

One of the things I really like about it is that people I know that tell me they do not have enough to buy gold effectively due to their lack of cash and such, can open an account for $50.00 or any amount they can put in as they have it. I like that.

Anytime I can get anyone to own metal I feel that I have done them right. I hold physical, have mining shares and an e-gold account, I like to have my bases covered.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:28 - ID#31868)
Night all - go metal!!!

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:30 - ID#25867)
For Gnutz - farfel - Silverbaron, but in no particular order
G-Nutz - If youre offering to host the full-text downloads I am very interested. If you can do it reliably and for free youll have everyones undying gratitude. You might want to change your moniker though to something that instills a little more confidence. "Full-text courtesy of G-Nutz"? I dont know...

To Silverbaron - I couldnt tell if youre serious. Do you really want to know how to invest in rhodium?

To farfel You said: "..this site belongs to the people now...not Bart Kitner". This honestly has to be the most gratifying commentary that Ive received about our discussion group since it was started almost two years ago. I appreciate your post. I know you didnt intend it as a compliment, but Im taking it as one anyway.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:35 - ID#335190)
Oliver, do not back up regarding the French Canadian issue. A Sovereign nation is Quebec. The French and English Intellectuals are operating at the same standards exhibited throughout the history of Canada.

French Monarchs, and English Monarchs as well, Catholic and Protestant Religious terrorism. Yes, French Canadians have a right to vote to separate, and also to vote not to separate. Must have the right to vote.

Let Majority rule, Canada has always been a constituted bi-national colonial community.

The issue of Quebec and Canada has everything to do with GOLD and WATER.
The Intellectuals are going to use the First Nations People of Quebec as the smoke and mirrors, to confuse the issues. A Free and sovereign nation attached to larger free and sovereign nation.

Hell these Bastards have not given a damn about First Nations People for 300 years. They have done what ever was necessary to destroy a sovereign and Free people. Why not now do the same to the French Canadian eh!.
Take Care.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:35 - ID#287207)
BART: I want to know how to invest in Rhodium --for next time.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:36 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Tolerant -- I know your view. GO for it. Don't kow how it can help currently, but don't see how it can hurt except with a downdraft in the 'medium-of-exchange', ( meaning gold ) . You are on the right track though.

The Hatt
(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:45 - ID#294232)
Gold is holding well!!!!!!
I have to admit that I am very pleased with how well gold is holding over the $291.00 mark. My guess is that we have seen the bottom and could see renewed interest later on today. Lets hope........

(Thu Feb 26 1998 01:49 - ID#242249)
6 Pak
6 pak, tank you very much for your comments.

I do not want to use more bandwith for this subject.

Ted and me are on the RED PHONE ( E-mail ) ,and we will settle this matter in a civilized way out of here.

I already want to say that Ted is not an A...Hole, and that he is acting like MAN.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:01 - ID#257148)
When the train, rolls into the statiooon....
The Hatt

I don't think so...

I am not sure the low is in, in fact, I think that train ain't even come into the station yet. Course, I don't know the future 'sept when I'm in a "trance"...Mercury ain't a good thing in the long run ( Minimata Bay ) and is a worse Electricity unprovider to NZ's largest City.....

away to imbibe some Hg and have a Tea party, see if that stuff works...

One pill makes you taller and one pill makes you small
But the pill that mother gives you
don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she' ten feet tall..

Now, cherokee, if we are talking Jefferson Starship, don't forget airplane's Surrealistic Pillow....

"Remember what the doormouse said....


Anyone go 1/2oz mape on gold bottoming below 280, in fact nearer 272 before June 30 1998 CE?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:11 - ID#335190)
Oliver @ 1:49
That was good news, about you and Ted. I felt bad about your remarks made against him. Ted associates with Irish drinkers, ( Shawn ) so he must be a good guy.
Take Care.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:12 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bart -- You have my gratitude for this hosting this site. Else, I'd have to frequent a number of pubs to get my fill of 'bar fights'. This saves me from innumerable 'headaches', etc. At this point, you must be wondering if I'm complimenting this site or not. Believe me, it is complimentary, even with all the BS that goes here! I might say, 'don't change a damned thing', except this IS supposed to be a metals site. I'm not sure that it would be a particularly good idea to 'define' that to a lesser extent. All depends on your views on the 'limitations' of the 'subject', though I do see quite a bit here that does not need to pass here. Some of my postings probably would not particularly qualify though I have cut back quite a bit of late. Almost seems like another site NEEDS to be put together for 'other' topics, relevant or not to metals. Anybody want to spend a 'few' bucks? On the other hand, I wonder how much you, Bart, would want to separate the 'gist' of what is posted here, and how the 'line' might be drawn. Personally, I would have a semblance of a hard time drawing one, except for the totally irrelevant BS, horse-puckey, weather and other bad-usage of bandwidth. Would like to know your views. Also am willing to pay for 'full-viewing rights', though I may only use them a few times per day, if any. Again, Thanks for the site. I DO appreciate it as I know MANY others do! This site is a privelege, not a right as some have supposed it is. Put them in their place and provide them with a 'penalty' should that be warranted. This site is truly YOURS, unlike the roads being the 'States'! You truly have the right to control what goes on here! You do pay the 'toll'.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:15 - ID#153102)
No taker here on that wager. South African CB talked gold down this week, so they still want it down. More time to accummulate.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:21 - ID#257148)
Eldo 02:12
I echo your sentiments, you express them better than could I.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:30 - ID#255151)

Bart, Ditto to Eldorado's post. Can we talk Dollars and Cents? Do you mind giving out the costs of running this forum? Perhaps voluntary contributions from some of the Kitcoites would defray costs and keep this site going in its present form. I would gladly contribute to this effort.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:35 - ID#242249)
Would you make a move out of the red neck era and join the future together.

CANADA needs help to FLY in the 21 th Century, not to be drag down under ...with our fathers`s fathers`s fathers`s thoughts....

My mother was dying at the hospital on the intensives cares an she was worried with the miss respect from Ottawa to the French Canadians and the Natives People rights.

Should I live till I die with no answer?

And should my children live with no answer?

Pure Laine and Red Necks Politicians all TOGETHER have no more right to drive this great CANAQUEBECDA.!!!!

We the PEOPLE should prevail and stand for the straith logic good SENSE.

OUT of here.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:37 - ID#252127)

Thanks again for your insights.

A while back I had suggested to Aurizon that they get together with other mining companies in the area and form a separate entity owned partially by each and buy Sigma, Kiena and Casa Beradi as a group ( say three or four companies to spread any risks ) . They didn't like the idea and felt that before making a decision on any one of the properties, especially Casa Beradi, their chief geologist would have to give the go ahead.

Placers properties ended up being to costly and the TVX and Golden Knight's much cheaper, so they went into Casa Beradi, but Casa had a fairly good profile before the accidents occurred and I sometimes wondered about TVX as an operator.

I certainly hope that they can work over the dangerous zones in that haulage way, as moving the mill and sinking a new shaft should cost much more.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:39 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aurator -- Only how I would feel if I were hosting this site, or any other site. People posting here need to take that view onto themselves! Keep it as pertinent as possible for the most part; Metals as speculation, investment or insurance and the rational ( s ) thereof. I know that makes it a bit hard to draw a 'line', but, thankfully, Bart has taken that particular chore in hand ( I think, and good luck? ) . Maaaannnn!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:48 - ID#284255)
I agree entirely.
I wish for no change.

Date: Wed Feb 25 1998 18:26
farfel ( @JIM C...ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THIS FORUM... ) ID#28585: the potpourri of essays, jokes, economic tracts, political science discourses, ad hominem assaults, demagogic appeals, investment info, etc...the entire melange of human interest that appears on this forum.
And on an off subject.
In the days when you couldn't count on a public facility to have indoor plumbing, an English woman was planning a trip to Germany. She was registered to stay in a small guest house owned by the local schoolmaster. She was concerned as to whether the guest house contained a WC. In England, a bathroom is commonly called a WC which stands for water closet. She wrote the schoolmaster inquiring into the location of the nearest WC.
The school master, not fluent in English, asked the local priest if he knew the meaning of WC. Together they pondered possible meanings of the letters and concluded that the lady wanted to know if there was a "Wayside Chapel" near the house . . . a bathroom never entered their minds. So the schoolmaster wrote the
following reply:
Dear Madam, I take great pleasure in informing you that the WC is located 9 miles from the house. It is located in the middle of a grove of pine trees, surrounded by lovely grounds. It is capable of holding 229 people and is open on Sundays and Thursdays. As there are many people expected in the summer months, I suggest you arrive early. There is, however, plenty of standing room. This is an unfortunate situation especially if you are in the habit of going regularly.
It may be of some interest to you that my daughter was married in the WC as it was there that she met her husband. It was a wonderful event. There were 10 people in every seat. It was wonderful to see the expressions on their faces. My wife, sadly, has been ill and unable to go recently. It has been almost a year since she went last, which pains her greatly. You will be pleased to know that many people bring their lunch and make a day of it. Others prefer to wait till the last minute and arrive just in time! I would recommend your ladyship plan to go on a Thursday as there is an organ accompaniment. The acoustics are excellent and even the most delicate sounds can be heard everywhere. The newest addition is a bell which rings every time a person enters. We are holding a bazaar to provide plush seats for all since many feel it is long needed.
I look forward to escorting you there myself and seating you in a place where you can be seen by all.
With deepest regards, The Schoolmaster

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:55 - ID#252150)
Oliver in Quebec@GET REAL
When you had the floods in the Sagenuay your gov't quite happily accepted
all kinds of grants & subsidies from the Feds, I think around 1 bil.
Now with these latest ice storms, your provincial govt of hypocrites will again receive over 1 bil-but that's not enough for them, now they want the feds to pay for all the damages to hydro quebec-which is a crown corp, which is another 1 bil. They have no pride. I hear all this bs about quebec pride, but they are like an avaricious unfaithful spouse that always takes, but never gives. Where would your dumb, deficit ridden govt be now if they were'nt getting all these grants from Ottawa, not to mention that they always took out a way more than they put in, for the past 60 yrs at least.

Ideaology may sound great, but anyone with any brains knows that only the elites would gain if quebec separates. Are you 1 of them?

Speaking of pride-where were most of the young Quebecois during WW2, when
Canadians from the prairies & all the rest of Canada were liberating France?

It's all sham & hypocrisy. It may make some ignorant people feel great about harrasing English speaking business people about the size of their signs, but it certainly won't encourage any foreign Cos to locate there.
Your govt was exposed on 60 mins as a bunch of dumb ideagogues.

I drove all over France & never saw 1 sign that said ARRET-they said STOP. If STOP is good enough for France, why not quebec? Face it-french is a dying language, but if you want to be the dogpatch of N.America-
go ahead & leave & good luck, because you will need a lot of it.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:58 - ID#393224)
Ted--you ugly old bugger--this message is not for you--so get yer lovely missus to the computer.

Dear Kristine??--
I do not know you, or the particular challenge you are facing. What I do know is that anyone who can put up with Ted is an extremely strong person. Whatever you are facing in your day-to-day life, you have got friends around the world that you did not know existed. You have got a 'mate' in Australia and I am going to take a personal interest in your welfare. Now if that character you are married to does not do the right thing--you must sneak onto the computer and let us know. We shall sort him out very quickly. As this is a precious metal site-- you will have to say 'go gold' like your hubby to justify your post. I am looking forward to many, many years of 'knowing' you from afar. Your mate in Oz, Nick.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 02:59 - ID#284255)
This one is the tail of the previous one.
With the interest Dennis Birch's revelation has generated on other venues, most notably Kitco, I should reveal that Dennis presented this story as a letter from a Mr. Johnson to his sons.Dennis prefaced the story by saying:
"Mr. Johnson is a retired financial analyst in his eighties who has lived and learned through times most of us only read about. A letter he had written to his sons was provided to me by one of my Canadian business associates. I was so intrigued with the letter I contacted Mr. Johson and had a lengthy phone conversation with him on the subject.Someone is always number one ( currently the US ) and there are many who "wannabe" number one ( BIS ) as outlined in his letter. It has a tinge of "conspiracy" to the rationale but regardless, the underlying facts and scenario are quite accurate in my opinion..." The letter was written from Houston,Texas and dated 7/15/97.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm always leery of conspiracy theories, so I appreciate it being brought down to earth. Certainly the underlying facts are accurate and the scenario plausible.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:01 - ID#252127)
I love my country as any other American should, but

WHY SHOULDN'T INDONESIA HAVE A CURRENCY BOARD, its inception would make the international money monger's cringe; better yet, why not have a common Asian trade currency other than the US dollar - even a trading block so they may get on their feet.

Even if they instituted a temporary halt on interest payments. Serve us right.

Hell a country with 5.5 trillion ( plus another 15 trillion ) in debt can't make the rules, especially when we the people have to foot the bill into eternity so that the monger's can keep shearing us.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:03 - ID#284255)
How The European Monetary Union's Impact On Financial Markets
10 weeks to lift off and counting. At the beginning of May, we'll learn which countries are to be members of Europe's new Monetary Union and how their exchange rates are to be fixed against each other. We'll see the outlines of a new Euroland, an economic region comparable in size to the U.S. And we may also want to start thinking about what for stock market investors could turn out to be the biggest emerging market of them all. That may sound like a wild notion. Everyone knows the old continent is saddled with high unemployment, restricted labor laws, and uncompetitive cost structures. But things could be changing.
For a start, underlying economic growth in the new region is quite robust and inflation is low. Business and consumer confidence is rising, and important currencies like the deutsche mark look undervalued against the dollar. Next, the European financial market, which is set to emerge over the next few years will be much deeper and more liquid than those of the individual countries which will
make it up. The switch to a single currency should make it a less risky place to do business.
Finally, equity finance is likely to play a much more important role in the future than it has in the past. In countries like France and Germany, the stock market represents a small part of the total economy, especially in comparison with the U.S. Only 12 percent of institutional financial assets in Germany are held in equities. Just 1/3 the figure for the U.S. Privatization, industrial reconstruction, demographic trends, deregulation, all these suggest a big advance in Europe's equity culture. And the food's not bad either.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:03 - ID#252150)
John Disney@Booming Economies
No doubt the 10% of the population in Slovenia & Croatia that are in the mafia or part of the corrupt govt/bureaucracy are doing great--
but the other 90% are doing about as well as their counterparts in Russia.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:08 - ID#255151)

With the Big Bang coming on April Fool's Day, and the EMU on the launch pad, why do I keep thinking of the Titanic?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:08 - ID#257148)
Eldo, Burt, Earthquakes and a word to the wise...
I think that Burt's sense of humour/humur/humor is delightfully anarchistic. What must it be like to say "Hitter Bye Bye" and despatch him to the ther?. The right thing to do of course, but we should all be grateful that Deus ex Machina ( that's Burt ) has the wisdom of Solomon too.

Hope this not too far off beam:


Yesterday your posts made me glad to tune in to kitco....

You posted Date: Wed Feb. 25 1998 12:38

 Last Fall I mentioned that it would be important not to look to well insulated from the difficulties of one's neighbours. Indeed we will, if we
do, suffer together; and should do so. This is a societal problem. 


May I share some wisdom with the group gleaned from some septuagenarian friends who experienced a shattering event and who realised that their good fortune could count against them. It contains, I believe some good guidance for that which we hope will never come to pass, but if it does, we shall be ready. Fore-warned is fore-armed

My two friends were in the Edgecumbe earthquake of 1987. This is the biggest earthquake in NZ since the Napier earthquake of 1926 ( ? )

J was chair-bound in the lounge, his wife P was having an afternoon nap in the bedroom when the earthquake struck. Js chair, on casters, went from one side of the lounge to the other affording him a splendid view of the proceedings:

A china plate ( bought by their eldest son with his first paycheque as a gift to them ) in pride-of-place fell off the wall just after a cushion from the couch bounced on to the floor, the plate landed on the cushion, unscathed. The television, also on casters went from one wall to another, a drawer opened, two crystal candelabras fell off a china cabinet into the drawers. The television went back across the floor. The China cabinet itself, now without the crystal marched across the room to meet the couch, the cabinet lurched over, resting against the couch, nothing was broken...

This story was repeated for all their ornaments, plates, glass, china and crystal. Nothing was broken. ( my sisters kitchen was trashed, gherkins found weeks later stuck 20 foot up in rafters ) .

J & P. being astute souls, hid all their ornaments from their friends and neighbours, in fact I was the first person they told their story to. They kept everything hidden because they, correctly, believed that were they appear to emerge unscathed from this disaster that destroyed houses and property everywhere, they would be the objects of bitterness and envy from their friends who suffered.. Gradually, over the following years they retrieved their possessions from hiding. They said not a word to anyone, save me...

If we are prepared, we have a duty to help those who arent, as we each see fit.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:10 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
I have been thinking about WBuffett and the Thrift idea for a long time now. It is possible that the trio would like to launch a financial/banking system, but what would they do with a Thrift ?
Soros would prefer nothing less than an International bank. WB and Gates would probably be more delighted with a world bank than a small US Thrift/Savings & Loans. Do they have the financial muscle ?
Well BG was worth a cool $35B about a year ago. Since then MSFT has gone up at least 50%. So BG is now worth at least $50B. Not far behind is WB, and ofcourse Soros is up there somewhere. So, they certainly have the ability to start an International financial institution. And hence, they have to have hard reserves such as gold and silver. That could explain, in part, some of the Ag purchases. The question is - Are they buying gold too ? I wouldn't be too surprised if they were.
They have nothing to lose. Au & Ag are almost at the bottom. If the financial institution idea does not pan out, well, au & ag may be a good investment for the future. If the idea does pan out, well, the trio can start leasing Ag, & Au, computer H/W and S/W, etc. etc.
Worse come to worse, they can always start minting gold and silver millennium coins. There could be a good markup in them you know.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:11 - ID#393224)
Your 02:35 post just violated ALL of Bart's rules. Look up 'hypocrite' in your French/English dictionary.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:13 - ID#255217)
A free and independent Texas
As a native Texan I would WELCOME the opportunity to have my beloved state seceed fron the ROA and reestablish itself as a free and independent REPUBLIC!!!!! YOU BETCHA!

I am certain, however, that there are other Texans who would not agree with me. Did you know that, even as the fledgling U.S.A. struggled for its independence during the Revolutionary War with England, George Washington and his fellow officers in the continental army would each morning rise and toast the King at breakfast?

As a student of texas history I became interested in Republic of Texas currency ( paper ) of which I have collected over the years ( I also used to deal a little in rare coins and PM's ) . The REAL stuff ( paper money ) is now worth MORE than face value in almost every instance and some of the isssues are quite rare ( and valuable ) . Such was not always the case. A lot of Confederate paper is still not worth much, but there was a LOT more Confederate paper printed than Texas paper.

The real shame is that Texas never had the money in its treasury to strike gold or silver coin. If such were extant today, they would be incredibly valuable.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:19 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bart -- Of course, there is the 'bit' of hilarity that gets posted here. HAR! Sometimes, they arrive right on time. Othertimes, we suffer only the 'insufferable'. Got a cure? I vote for a more occasional 'hilarity' if that be the only alternative. I.E., if one can't be 'informative/nice/or-at-least-'fun'', don't 'be' here at all, in that order. Bart, it's Your bandwidth. We only need more 'precise' answers, I think.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:25 - ID#284255)
Flux and chaos
Yes, I agree.
I think the" Powers Who Be" must be very concerned.
Not with what has already gone down,
But with what has the potential to go down.

AG's comments are very interesting this time round.
He speaks from a very concerned corner.
His style of speech seems stilted and directed.
Not his style at all.
I guess he's got his arm twisted behind his back.

The next few months news and earnings reports,
Will wipe many a smile off certain faces.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:26 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Argent -- And the relevance of your 'Texas break-away' to this 'metals' site?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:29 - ID#242249)
James , Quebec pays his fair share with taxes, Without the right to decide where the money should go.

The Federal Canadian decided without Quebec to build Mirabel Airport Billion ...TRASH... Laprade Heavy Water Plant... Billion ..Trash...and on and on and on...

with our taxes and all other Canadian Taxes.

Well where do we go from here?

Your are not serious when you say Saguenay Deluge or Montreal Ice Storm was a charity from Ottawa ....are you? And Floods in the Prairies? and...every disasters in the Country?

Ho French Canadian where the most efficient battle least in the pays de Moliere.

We will not separate if Canadian come back in Montreal in BUS LOAD and pledge they love us and they want to build a COUNTRY a...REAL COUNTRY at least more than ...three day before the next referendum and...base on something else of the reminessence of the past and in particular Red Neck intollerence and short see. We have two choices:

We put everything on the side and rebuild a CANADA and get realy stronger or

We scrap everything and Free for All we start it all over again!

I think you should sleep on it.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:32 - ID#153102)
There is really only need for one international bank for trade. International trade has always broken down for one reason: governments cheat. They cheat with devaluation and they cheat like Nixon did by reneging on a promise of redeemability.

If countries deposited gold in the BIS and exporters secured a letter of authorization for payment in gold through BIS before shipping, then no gold or very little would actually need to be moved around and balances of payments on current accounts would stay current.

Of course, other international banks could facilitate this mechanism. The only drawback is the law it imposes on governments to pay honestly in trade. Since governments tend in the other direction.

It would be pleasant to think there are actually people at BIS working toward an end of this general description. So, I'll sign off on that hopeful note.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:37 - ID#242249)
( Nick)
Please Sir tell me what is wrong with my post that you can post me as an hypocrythe?


I am going to bed any way ...Lost my time? Do not want to loose my sleeepzzzzz
See you.................

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:40 - ID#284255)
The greatest need?
You may be correct about the truth of what is needed.
But that will return no profits.

There is currently a great need,
On our Mother Earth.
To create the greatest profits,
Within the shortest time frame.
This in effect creates the pryamid.
From which we take our current view.
From which we will ascend.

Email chatter:
About those puts...YOU know how much I want to buy them too!!But I don't think quite yet.The trend is still the bulls' friend for the moment.BWDIK
I just had a meeting with a prominent investor banker this morning.He thinks the little guys playing the market and messing with their IRA"S are going to get slaughtered.Only a real bear market is going to shake up their notions that markets go higher.Those of us older and wiser,who have been stung,know how serious things can get for some of these individual investors.Many do not realize the "take no prisoners" wrath if a market gets ugly.The gentleman I met with also conceded that many pros are still forced to keep entering the market even though they too are concerned.The sidelines is not an option for many of those people with a market rising like it has been.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:43 - ID#284255)
Excuse me - this one's from the missus
What's the latest game they play in the White House.
Swallow the leader.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:45 - ID#393224)
G'day Auracious. Bart is asleep and will not notice another non-pm post.

Your earthquake story brought back many memories. My wife and I spent nine years in Papua New Guinea doing our best for a developing nation. We lived in a very strong earthquake zone. My wife collected clay pots from villages around the country--beautiful works of art. As we were in a vicious earthquake zone our houses were always on stilts so that they could shake, rattle and roll every other month. Our biggest earthquake was an 8.4-- and the geologists on this site will know how cataclysmic that is!! 7.0's to 7.5's were a common event. We got so damned used to strong quakes that they barely fazed us. I remember one particular 7.5. We had some friends visiting from 'civilization' and we were all sitting at the kitchen table playing bridge. The bidding was in progress and it was my turn to bid. I had a good hand!! The dogs started barking uncontrollably. I winked at the missus and said "Here comes another one." A minute later it started. We knew the drill. A low pitched rumbling noise--then slow vibrations--within about 5 seconds violent vibrations--all the crockery off the shelves smashing on the floor--all the books, mementos and "POTS" crashing to the floor. You'd think we would have learned!! Our guests were panic stricken!! Horrified looks as they half got out of their chairs while all was crashing around us. The missus and I sat there very calmly. I made only two comments-- 1 ) pick up your drinks, and 2 ) Four hearts.

We now have ONE pot from Papua New Guinea. We bought it at the airport the day we left!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 03:59 - ID#284255)
Ted - for you and yours - nothing but the best.
Grey skies grey seas, grey winds so cold
Blast polar seas and tropic gold
Bitter the storms of polar seas
Cruel the cyclones tyrannies
Such storms good seamen justly fear
But brave seas moods through all the year
Tho' grim the toll the grey seas take
Of human folly or mistake.

Today her mood is a caress
Flaunting the beautiful blue dress
Sweet dream of peace; and I too dream
With her of peace this day, this night
By quiet sea and calm moonlight

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:01 - ID#255151)
Nick of Canberra

Damn, mate, you seem to attract natural disasters!! I was enthralled by your post a while back about the tsunami that hit Hawaii in the early 50's. Man, if an asteroid starts heading toward Earth, I plan to stay away from Canberra!! : ) )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:06 - ID#257148)
Where's the V A L U E ???

Missus sharefin

thanks for the laugh, I almost choked!

That Free Texas was my red herring. I apologise if it was off topic, but, my occasional series

"Land of the Free HA HA HA"
has become moribund as I look for sponsors. Thing is, more I find out about the US of A, the more I realise that your freedoms are nonsense.

I first posted this on

Date: Wed May 14 1997 00:13 Aurator ( Top O' da Mornin' to y'all ) :

"Like Liberty, Gold never stays where it is undervalued."

JS Morril, to US Senate 25 jan 1878

I think it is worth repeating every day. My point was that Texas, alone in the modern United States, ( I know only a little of your histories, but I fancy much more than you know of ours ) was a Republic, a Free Entity, before the foundation of those damned Washington Novus Order Seculums..And in that freedom to make your own laws, I hope you may become free.


As for the pursuit of happiness?

That is one great weakness, imho. A cat chasing his tail springs to mind.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:18 - ID#257148)
What you need is a surfboard--- Hummm Anyone read Lucifer's Hammer? meteorite/tsunami/surfboard??
Such sang froid! :-0

I've been in several myself, nothing like 7.5, you should be glad you're on stilts. BTW a little more sagacity, if I may. The houses that suffered the worst damage were "L" shaped or Boomerang Shaped. It seems that these shapes inevitably were against the tides of the quake. Observers on the hills around Edgecumbe saw the earthquakes sweep across the Bay of Plenty like surf in the bay. The ground rose and fell like the sea. A "square" house rode the wave happily if it had the wave astern, it rolled if the wave was abeam and it disintegrated if it was L shaped..


(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:22 - ID#252127)
Auritor......right as usual

Better that the good ole USA straigten out its own mess rather than bring the rest of the world in on it.
Ain't no secessionist, but that should get some of them one worlders stinking up the Capitol Building.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:23 - ID#257148)
too far off topic, I shall spank myself very hard....
what? asteroid? Crsus! synchronicity time.. OK, Lucifer's Hammer SF written by Jerry Pournelle and forgotten...
haven't read SF for more than a decade....
any way, the asteroid is heading for Cape Breton.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:31 - ID#228283)

COMEX news last nite said a bank in England made the observation that Russia has sold their reserves to almost nil. ( paraphrased ) I really believe my charts on the gold/ plat spread ( buy plat sell gold ) is working. Need some corroberation ( HELP...for those of you in Kaybek ) of same.
Goodnight from the chilly Midwest.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:41 - ID#255151)
Asteroid Heading Towards "The Cape"?!

Shall we call it Bart's Star?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 04:55 - ID#358318)
Samuel Huntington once said that the future "clash of civilizations" will constitute a fourth phase in the evolution of conflict in the modern world after the conflict of ideology ( capitalism versus communism ) .

Look around, at Islamic money, at disagreements in Japan's policies for recovery set against Western demands for economic stimulus, Indonesia's plans for a currency board system against the IMF's disapproval, at the Euro versus the Dollar, the Asian proposals for Yen trade against the dollar, the response to Iraq's violation of UN sanctions against the response to Israel's; fiat money versus gold, etcetera. Does this not give food for thought!

The West is said to face "no economic challenge" apart from Japan... however, some say "US hegemony has begun to crumble, not just economically, but ideologically as well..." ( Johnson and Keehn ) .

Tightening of economic constraints had devastating effects on the USSR. Yet, "the crisis of US world power preceded that of the USSR and, in ever-changing forms, has outlasted the end of the Cold War..."

"...what one superpower gained from the troubles of the other superpower fell far short of their joint losses in relation to the non-Western world..." This is a powerful thought!

What does this mean for gold? One of the foundation stones of Western strength is the power of the dollar and dollar denominated financial instruments to attract investments. The "other side of the coin", the weakened Asian currencies, show gold as something of great worth to own in their countries. Consider now if "US hegemony has begun to crumble", the future for gold is not that of a "dead investment"!

There are no doubt a few at Kitco who will find material of interest to read in the following article, a little of which I have already quoted:
"Beyond Western Hegemonies" - by Giovanni Arrighi,
Iftikhar Ahmad & Miin-wen Shih
( Paper presented at the XXI Meeting of the Social Science History
Association, New Orleans, Louisiana, October 10-13, 1996. )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:06 - ID#255284)
And that bright object in the sky that's getting brighter
Bart's star it is. Not to be confused with Barnard's Star, which, despite being the second closest sun to our own, has no effect on us, astrologically speaking.

I am moving to the Big smoke soon and shall loose my crystal clear--no real light pollution--- view of the Milky Way and the beautiful Southern Constellations. I weep for my goldbug brethren whose view of the heavens is obscured by the bright insincerity of the cities.

If we are talking "treasure chests" let us add the knowlege of the stars. For they not only provide the foundations for the oldest of mankind's stories but they have been necessary guides in the past and may be necessary again. Some would say the stars are not merely guides, but are also guardians. And who could gainsay them?

time to count sheep---

Hay! ewe

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:25 - ID#266105)

"Land of the Free HA HA HA"
has become moribund as I look for sponsors. Thing is, more I find out about the US of
A, the more I realise that your freedoms are nonsense.


....keep your damn bell, just leave me the crack

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:29 - ID#255284)
That was way/weigh over my head brother
you exercise in alertness, you..

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:38 - ID#255284)
always was the black sheep

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:40 - ID#288295)
COMEX inventories 2/25

COMEX reported totals are exactly the same as yesterday.

I assume that no inventory was done because of the early close, due to a phone fault.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:49 - ID#288295)
Islamic Mint Gold Dinar

Since no one on our forum has been unable to find one of the new gold Dinars anywhere, and since I have received no response to my email query of the Islamic Mint source in 5 days, I conclude that we have our does not exist.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:51 - ID#288295)
unable = able

(Thu Feb 26 1998 05:55 - ID#185448)
What WC is what we want to believe
Re your 2:48 post
Always appreciate your contributions to this site. - Though, there is critical a remark I have to add re your above mentioned post:
Despite the fact that Im not a German, Im somewhat familiar with the reception of the mentioned locations there. I enjoyed the joke, but it contains ONE essential mistake: Unfortunately the term "WC" means in the german tongue "Wasser-Closett" and this has been widely known amongst the native population for decades. Even nowadays, as the word is written "Klosett", the abbreviation still is WC ( as it doesnt really matter, in which language you s*** ) .

With deep respect and kind regards

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:02 - ID#393224)
G'day/g'nite Auric.
Mate--if I knew that an asteroid was heading for the earth and that it would be the end of civilization as we know it--I would move to Indiana so that I could get acclimatized!! Cheers, N.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:18 - ID#255284)
Ate too much Ginseng today
Most unsafe to make such conclusion. The inability to find something is not proof of its non-existance. For example, I may not be able to find your "mind."
Francis Bacon and William of occam may beg to disagree with you too
I. however, am melting into my keyboard.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:26 - ID#393224)
What are you doing up?? Go to bed!! Baaa.
Oh--and 'go gold'--as if it needed any help from me!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:27 - ID#284255)
COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures ended mostly higher Wednesday except for silver, which saw a further day of heavylosses. "Those silver buyers which coat-tailed on Warren Buffett's purchase are now being exited as the tightness in the market has eased with silver lease rates back down to more normal levels," said Bill O'Neill commodities research director at Merrill Lynch. "A significant rally in silver is probably not warranted fromhere," he said. Trading on COMEX was halted near the close by a phone fault which forced a special reopening of COMEX metals markets to establish settlement prices.In industry news, demand in the major gold consuming markets monitored by the World Gold Council ( WGC ) rose five percent to 753.5 tons in the fourth quarter 1997, resulting in a nine percent rise in total world demand for the 1997 year to a record 2935.5tons. "A huge surge in Indian demand offset disinvestment in some East Asian countries, while a recovery in investment demand and solid jewelry demand growth were the highlights of the year," said Richard Scott-Ram economic advisor to the WGC in New York at the publication of the Council's fourth quarter 1997 survey of world gold demand trends. Meanwhile, copper futures soared to their highest level in 12 days after Broken Hill Proprietary Copper, a division of Australia's BHP, shut down its Pinto Valley, Ariz., copper sulfide operations. That will slash production at the mine to 15,900 tons of copper a year from 70,244 tons. BHP is the world's second-largest copper producer behind Chile's state-owned Codelco.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:53 - ID#238295)
small caps
Bill El Z: Small caps have underperformed so far this year. But when they outperform, they do it in a big way. If past is prologue, we will see a 4-6 week period of VERY SUBSTNANTIAL SMALL CAP OUTPERFORMANCE before this bull dies.

Gold has held up nicely after hitting my downside target of $290. JSE up 2% this morning. Now if only volume would start to pick up, we will have a decent rally on our hands.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:55 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
...but someone on cnbc said today that in ten years there will be over 25 trillion in the stock market and there is over 13 now....i have NO way to verify this....

The 13 trillion now sounds plausible. The 25 trillion in ten years depends on the stock market performance over the next ten years of course; it might be 2.5 trillion in ten years' time! of my points is that 20% of 13 trillion is 2.6 trillion of TAXES to swipe at the 5 trillion of debt we have....

Surely that 20% of 13 trillion will have been taken into account in the so-called "balanced budget"? ... AFAIK, the plan is that there will be no US National Deficit, but little ( if any ) progress will be made in terms of eating into the US National Debt. Again that US National Debt Clock site at site link ( and the associated links ) examine this further.

think of America as a big ship like maybe the Titanic, or something similar. We have finally stopped the leak in our hull but taken on 5 trillion gals of water.. Well we have made progress but with this much water onboard it will take a lot of heat to evaporate it... Until then we will be moving very slowly not to tip over or to prevent taking on more water.

ASIAN GROWTH FORECASTS are still being downgraded by the region's governments and economists, despite indications that stock and bond markets there, along with currencies, have bottomed out and are starting to recover

Two Harvard economists are suggesting that the International Monetary Fund's own poorly designed bailout packages for Asia may be partly to blame for the region's crisis.

be very careful with this silver market. Tonight MCNeil/Leherer ( sp ? ) did a very in depth story on silver from 1896 to today and also about Warren B. I'd suggest be very careful - he ain't the Hunt Brothers !

according to Barron's, warren bought all of his silver at prices over 5, but less than 6 dollars an ounce...

what I mean is silver is a buy and is headed for the stars. Warren has already made 1/4 million and that's just the beginning. IMHO and theirs

I really think Warren's Silver purchase might pan out with a ongoing Big investment in Kodak.. Kodak is Warrens type of company.. and you know who uses a lot of silver. Just a hunch...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:57 - ID#284255)
Today is eclipse day

(Thu Feb 26 1998 06:57 - ID#419147)
US had 22 bil budget deficit last year..

Am I too dumb to understand the modern financial system or am I just dumb???

02/24/1998 $5,522,503,241,725.24

Month Amount
02/23/1998 $5,519,492,792,898.57
02/20/1998 $5,518,340,599,802.18
02/19/1998 $5,515,606,648,101.35
02/18/1998 $5,516,263,758,020.16
02/17/1998 $5,510,166,063,080.80
02/13/1998 $5,474,687,599,259.03
02/12/1998 $5,474,464,732,467.36
02/11/1998 $5,473,648,289,477.06
02/10/1998 $5,471,889,906,215.21
02/09/1998 $5,468,966,737,716.36
02/06/1998 $5,472,049,936,751.15
02/05/1998 $5,474,663,018,859.28
02/04/1998 $5,475,809,861,023.23
02/03/1998 $5,474,822,352,150.77
02/02/1998 $5,483,592,532,096.82

01/30/1998 $5,490,064,235,079.64
12/31/1997 $5,502,388,012,375.95
11/28/1997 $5,462,621,557,837.57
10/31/1997 $5,427,225,185,059.66
09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34
08/29/1997 $5,404,420,294,885.51
07/31/1997 $5,373,228,560,474.27
06/30/1997 $5,376,151,252,876.02
05/30/1997 $5,344,961,362,266.83
04/30/1997 $5,353,971,314,439.39
03/31/1997 $5,380,889,857,391.59
02/28/1997 $5,349,937,360,942.68


(Thu Feb 26 1998 07:09 - ID#238295)
US world influence
Trinovant: My gut feeling that US world power and influence are peaking is the prime reason I am so bullish on gold.

But this will be a long process. A gentle walk downhill rather than falling off a cliff. But the long-term impact on the gold market will be huge. The galloping 1970s gold bull reflected market fears that US was losing its grip. The savage post-1980 gold bear reflected the powerful US resurgence and victory in the Cold War.

And now the tide is about to shift again.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 07:24 - ID#289357)
TYoung @ bullion in IRAs (Are you up yet?)

Continuing the discussion from last evening - if you really want 'safe' bullion in your IRA account, I would suggest buying Central Fund of Canada, a bullion-only fund, now trading at a 5 or 6% discount to its net asset value. Trades on the Amex, symbol CEF, I believe. This one would be hard for the US Feds to get at.

I am faced with the same problem as you: much of my investment is in tax-deferred accounts. However, any gold/silver which I have purchased, has been done privately ( with cash ) and is stored privately ( not in a bank box ) so it is for all practical purposes non-existent to the gold snatchers. I have take the precaution not to buy any post-1933 gold coins, just in case.

If you're interested in buying pre-1933 gold which carries a very small premium to spot bullion, I would suggest some of the European gold, rather than U.S coins - such as British Sovereigns, France and Switzerland 20 Francs, German 20 Marks, Austrian 20 Corona, Italian 20 Lira, etc. All these coins contain about 1/4 or 1/5 ounce of gold, so should be suitable for small transactions.

If this sounds like paranoia, it really isn't, just prudence. But as someone said, even paranoids have real enemies........

Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes all the rules...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 07:29 - ID#289357)

I agree that is is impossible to prove that something does not exist by the fact of its absence. However, personal conclusion is another matter & is done all the time - UFO's, etc. ad nauseum.

Until someone comes up with one of these bright yellow puppies in their hand, or can show evidence that they have been traded, I stand by my conclusion.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 07:44 - ID#36965)
Joke of the morning
Gold appears to be weakly getting up from bed and apparently not falling out of bed any longer. Here's hoping that today and tomorrow may be a rebirth for our metal friend; yellowbellow that it is. Here's a short one for those easily amused.

The difference between a Rolling Stone and a Scotsman is that the
Rolling Stone says "hey you, get off 'a my cloud", and the Scotsman says
"hey McCloud, get off 'a my ewe!"

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:00 - ID#289357)
Bart @ Rhodium

Bart -

Thanks for the reply, but I was just excited....I think the Rhodium market probably does not have enough liquidity for me to buy the metal directly.

What got my blood pumping, was the $800/oz figure, in tandem with the reports of substantial anomalous Rhodium in the find at Elisabeth Hill ( Munni Munni ) in Oz, which has been discussed widely on this forum. I'm an investor in one of the joint venture partners East Coast Minerals NL ( ECM/ASX ) ; the other is Legend Mining NL ( LEG/ASX ) .

I seem to remember that Rhodium went to $15,000/oz in the late 70's or early 80's ( although I could be wrong ) . If true, even today's prices are a steal in that context.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:06 - ID#410194)
COMEX DATA (Better late than...)
We had difficulties getting these figures last night, the latest Comex inventory figures USUALLY released after trading:

Gold: Unchanged at 440,342 troy ounces

Silver: Rose 1,119,672 troy ounces to 90,086,604 -Just above a 16 year low

Some news:

According to reliable sources, Gold demand reached 2035 tons during 1997, which is 9% above 1996. Demand in the 4th quarter of 1997 was 5% above the prior year and the slowdown probably reflects some temporary Asian fears.

As for Silver, several firms are now starting to make promises to increase their production! The latest producer to make such a statement is the world's largets: Mexico's Penoles said that they would increase their output by 5 million ounces every year for the next 5 year. This mexican mine is responsible for 8.8% of the current world total.

And finally, there seems to be a gradual psychological change that makes shrewd traders/investors wanting to be long Gold instead of Silver now. The jury is still out as to what will happen to the weakening Silver bull market but one thing is for sure, most of the the small traders have indeed been shaken out over the past few sessions!

Bob M
(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:08 - ID#26059)
Old Gold
Your point is well taken..a gold bull market will only begin when the US begins to lose its power status in the also correct that the change is beginning

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:24 - ID#338434)
Apex Mines
This mornings USA Today has an article about Thomas Kaplan ( President of Apex ) & Apex Mines. Article details some of Apex' silver holdings, which allegedly has the potential to make Apex the 4th largest silver producer in the world.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:25 - ID#26793)
Indonesia "still studying" currency as often as China "won't devalue" currency

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:25 - ID#333131)
OLD GOLD, Your observation of a peaking of US influence.
My views are identical to many of yours including the loss of US leadership. "The walk down the hill" may lead to many different outcomes. The one I fear most is a "Balkanisation" ( is there such a word? ) of large parts, if not all, of the world. Not a happy prospect for our grandchildren.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:29 - ID#317193)
Your post answered my question on other options. Great alterative-will do my due diligence. Been up since 4
Thank you for your post, this is the alternative I was looking for-will do my due diligence. Been up for hours, but had to drive to our airport to drop someone off. I greatly appreciate the info. Tom

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:30 - ID#317193)
Sorry the post got jumbled-sure you get the idea. Tom

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:37 - ID#26793)
European stocks at "dizzying heights suffering vertigo" (I hope so

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:44 - ID#26793)
FTSE 100 news. Note the reference to thin volume in my last two posts

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:48 - ID#26793)
U.S. gold coin demand up 254% and much more gold news

(Thu Feb 26 1998 08:52 - ID#26793)
More than half of Korean banks fail to meet BIS capital standards

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:01 - ID#26793)
Summary of Asia overnight

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:07 - ID#26793)
Amax Gold merger news and more

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:18 - ID#348286)
@Realistic - Silver (The poor mans Gold)
"And finally, there seems to be a gradual psychological change that makes shrewd traders/investors wanting to be long Gold instead of Silver now."
This is definitely a valid statement.
I wonder how many people here have actually tried to store 5000 ounces
of silver? i.e. REAL not PAPER?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:20 - ID#340459)
CIA and Iraq
Report: CIA draft targets Saddam

NEW YORK - The CIA has drafted plans to topple Saddam Hussein by
enlisting Kurdish and Shiite agents to sabotage key economic and political
targets in Iraq, The New York Times reported Thursday.

The plan, which would be the fifth covert attempt by the Central
Intelligence Agency to get rid of the Iraqi president, must be approved by
President Clinton. Many of the Clinton's advisers are skeptical of the
proposal, according to the Times.

CIA Director George Tenet has told Clinton the plan is risky, the Times
reported, and National Security Adviser Sandy Berger doubts the
agency's ability to undermine Hussein.

The plan would try to weaken the Iraqi leader by damaging the country's
economy, the Times said. It would target for destruction utility plants and
government broadcast stations, and increase political pressure through
propaganda programs like a "Radio Free Iraq" broadcast to Baghdad.

"This is not a propaganda operation," an unidentified senior government
official told the newspaper. "This is a major campaign of sabotage."

If approved, the plan could cost tens of millions of dollars and become
one of the largest covert operations since the end of the Cold War.

Since the Persian Gulf War in 1991, the CIA has backed Kurdish
dissidents in northern Iraq, Shiite Muslim groups in the south and Iraqi
exiles and defectors in London and Jordan in an unsuccessful effort to
destabilize Hussein's government.

By The Associated Press

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:25 - ID#340459)
Gold firms gently, silver and PGMs flat

LONDON, Feb 26 ( Reuters ) - Gold firmed a little on Thursday, as dealers assessed the effects of tighter lease
rates for the metal, while silver and platinum group metals cast around for direction, dealers said.

Gold fixed at $293.00 an ounce in the morning against Wednesday afternoon's $292.25, as European trade
supported a price rise that had began in overnight Asian trade.

Asia's rise came on the back of light Chinese buying amid light volumes, said one dealer.

With nothing coming in on the sales side, that was enough to kick the price from $291.50 to $293.00, he added.

Gold was last at $292.70/$293.20 from its New York close at $291.80/$292.30.

One London dealer predicted a degree of short-covering in Europe on Thursday, as those who had sold gold short
closed off positions in the face of higher lease rates.

``I think the spot's probably going to see a bit of short-covering because borrowing rates are getting a little bit
tighter,'' said the dealer, though she added that rates had eased slightly during early European trade.

London Bullion Market Association daily figures for gold lease rates, reflecting supply and demand for metal in the
lending market, have been tightening in recent days.

Monday's rate for one-month gold was at 1.34 percent compared with Wednesday's 1.66 percent.

One analyst said that rise could be enough to encourage those with short positions to close them off, as the cost of
holding those positions rose.

``Any sort of rise in lease rates, which are governed more than anything by the amount of gold around for lending, is
likely to encourage short-covering,'' he said.

But the effects might be limited, said the dealer.

``Short-covering will probably see some good resistance at $295,'' she said.

The metal was last at $6.04/$6.09 an ounce just one cent up on its previous New York close.

Its languid performance contrasted with sharp falls overnight on New York's COMEX exchange, where dealers
waited for the Europeans to go home before selling futures heavily to knock some 25 cents off the price of spot

Brokers GNI said in a daily commodities report that falling lease rates, lower open interest and long liquidation had
been significant factors which were exacerbated by the overnight rise in COMEX warehouse stocks.

``While COMEX stocks are still on a downward trend, metal is clearly flowing both ways at present, which
suggests that the spike in prices uncovered some free metal,'' it said.

``We may have to go to $6.00 before we see any fund interest whether it be the Warren Buffett's of this world or
anyone else,'' said the London dealer in reference to the U.S. billionaire investor who announced earlier this month
his purchase of a 129.7 million ounce silver stake.

Platinum and palladium continued their choppy trade of Wednesday, though the effects left both largely unchanged
by mid-morning in Europe.

Platinum was last at $378.50/$380.50, unchanged from its European opening but down on New York's close at

Palladium was also softer on New York's closing level, last at $239.50/$241.50 versus $240.00/$242.00.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:32 - ID#340459)
Early DOW going south

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:33 - ID#273112)
for Bart of Kitco @ Rhodium
Actually Bart,
I think we'd all appreciate a lecture from you on
"how to invest in rhodium".

never heard of rhodium coinage or bullion ... just powder & sponge. You sell it in seal polyethylene carboys - buy back same? let us know : )

Spud, of the Republic of Texas

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:35 - ID#228100)
Those figures listed are rising at about same rate of inflation ( 5,349 to 5,522 = about 3% per year ) .

1. Are these numbers too high? YES.

2. Will a 3% rise cause a financial collapse? I don't think so.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:46 - ID#340459)
Dollar weaker against Yen / Mark, Go Gold Go

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:51 - ID#333131)
Gold lease rates
One month to one year rates are all over 2%.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:54 - ID#286262)
Midas hard sell

I'm getting annoyed with the constant phone calls from Midas. Anyone here with any relation to them be advised that I do not respond kindly to boiler room telemarketing pressure. Usually I take it as a sell signal, not a buy. Midas will get more press on this list if they don't take NO for an answer.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 09:58 - ID#340459)
@Carl, That is good news Carl, out of all the theories and ratio's
I think movements in these 2 play the most important role in Gold price.
a ) Lease Rate b ) Weakness in US $
It looks like the lease rates are up and dollar inching down, both are positives for Gold and American economy, IMHO.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:02 - ID#340459)
@Spanky, I DONT KNOW WHO THE HELL ARE YOU, And why would I call you
With a name like that you must be queer. I DONT SELL ANYTHING,

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:07 - ID#335190)
In God We Trust @ Depression/Inflation
Capitalism also adapted sacred tradition to its own uses, inventing a rationnalistic logic that corresponded with the oldest rituals of worship and cloaked the nonrational impulses in scientific garb.

Monetarists, for instance, assumed an immutable natural order. The money rule was described as a golden mean: a society that faithfully adhered to it would enjoy the maximum of what was possible in life.

The advocates of gold relied upon divine authority to enforce this natural order. If humankind pledged obedience to God's indestructible metal, it would be rewarded with an eternal assurance of stability.

Both doctrines, gold and monetarism, were expressions of premodernist fundamentalism, simple and certain moral formulas for life, and their certitudes had deep appeal, especially in anxious times.

The religious subtext of economic recession helped to explain why people put up with it. The public's tolerance for the contraction and loss was conditioned by a deeper sense of religious awe.

There was something bracing, spiritually invigorating, in the knowledge of "HARD TIMES" especially if one averted one's eyes and pretended that "ALL" were sharing in the sacrifice together.

The social deception required a complicity of ignorance between citizens and their leaders. Publics acceptance of recession declined proportionately, however, as the ritual continued and the suffering spread. The sacrifices began to seem greater than the burden of guilt required. Atonement was necessary, but perhaps the priests were going too far.

As failure and unemployment spresd through the society, it occurred to more and more citizens that they too might be chosen as victims.

FYI.......Take Care.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:09 - ID#261352)
@ Donald_A... How would you project CEF to appreciate in value as
compared to mining issues in an AU bull market?Thanks.

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:11 - ID#273112)
US FedGov ACTUAL deficit for fiscal year 1998 to date...
US FedGov fiscal year begins each September, so..

02/24/1998 $5,522,503,241,725.24
09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34

= $109 billion dollar DEFICIT currently for fiscal year 1998. Clinton, Rubin et all are simply liars. So, we are are six months into fiscal 1998 borrowing-binge. Lets calculate the estimated TOTAL 1998 deficit using these numbers:

$109 billion / 6 months = $18.16 billion deficit per month

$18.16 billion * 12 months = $218 billion dollars deficit for fiscal 1998. Anyone want to bet what the REAL, FINAL deficit will be this year?

I will. Since the US FedGov borrowing ceiling was quitely raised recently to $5.95 TRILLION dollars, I am going to say that the final 1998 deficit willbe the new ceiling limit minus the old ceiling limit:

$5.95 trillion - $5.4 trillion = $550 billion dollars.

OK. I'm on record: Our vast, bloated, corrupt, lying, deceitful, BS spreading, US FedGov will run a $550 billion deficit for Fiscal Year 1998. Let's watch...

Spud, watcher of bean counters...

PS -

Previous years deficits follow:

Fiscal 1997 = $189 billion
Fiscal 1996 = $251 billion
Fiscal 1995 = $281 billion
Fiscal 1994 = $281 billion
Fiscal 1993 = $347 billion
Fiscal 1992 = $399 billion

Source: US Treasury "Public Debt to the Penny"

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:12 - ID#197313)
Yo Midas take it easy,
maybe someone is just trying to sell the guy a muffler,
you don't have a monopoly on the name. GO GOLD

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:13 - ID#258427)
Midas_a and Silver Spike it...MIDAS is a Gold and Silver dealer here in the US...he was not refering to you...

Lookie at the Silver spike...up .12...not up .09...go silver and er go gold.....

Yellow Jacket__A
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:14 - ID#4289)
Cornucopia gold find
Some good news for a change!
Company Press Release
Bonanza - Grade Gold Intercept Reported From Cornucopia's Ivanhoe Property
Read the news at
Stock is already 57% up this morning. Could this be another BCMD?
And they seem to have adequate financing from their partner in the property to develop it. They claim they will be one of the lowest cost gold producers soon. I'm betting CNPGF will go even higher.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:14 - ID#28594)
Silverbaron, re: gold dinars doesnt exist--

Your formula would certainly make life less complicated! {:- ) However, they--the Murabitun--have certainly mounted an elaborate hoax if your assessment is correct, and expose themselves to considerable risk. The religious leaders of Islam would surely take such lies very seriously indeed: 1 ) a fake fatwa, 2 ) enlisting the PM of Turkey is an elaborate lie, 3 ) web sites across the world disseminating untruthful information about religious practices ( payment of Zakat, e.g. ) .

My standard of judgment ( better the impossible probable ) brings me to the obverse conclusion; it does exist.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:22 - ID#26793)
@Bill El Zebub
CEF has no leverage, except for a small discount to net asset value, so it should do less well. Gold mining shares perhaps should be divided into two categories, hedged and less or non-hedged so a general answer to your question is not possible. In an up gold market CEF will mirror the bullion. Another factor on CEF is that each share represents .008 ounces of gold and .31 ounces of silver ( July, 97 ) and thus a decision about the future prospects of each metal is part of the price action.

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:24 - ID#273112)
Sunshine Silver following same pattern ... this is a no-brainer:
SSC down again this morning .. it will be down most of the day until right at the end, then snap! Right back up.

Let's all buy 20,000 shares @ 1 3/16 each morning, and put in a sell at 1 1/4 for close of day.

It's a brainless 1/16 * 20,000 = $1,250 ( minus broker fee & short-term gains ) . With 200 million shares sloshing around, this has got to be one of THE most exploited, manipulated PM stocks.

Watch this thing - it ripples Up and Down, Up and Down with STUNNING regularity. No wonder our resident rocket-scientist & baked potato trade it.

But then again ... if we all do this ... it won't work, will it? We can't all be rich - just the elite few. Hmmmm.

The stock market vs. Las Vegas - what's the difference?

Ans: You know the Las Vegas game is rigged.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:30 - ID#210235)
@CNBC 7:40 a.m. EST
Good morning. Mario Gabelli's Gold Fund manager will be featured guest.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:32 - ID#258427)
@Spud and SSC
Spud ... I have been scalping SSC ( or more correctly trying to scalp SSC ) for months ... but it is not as easy as you suggest to get an execution. Put in a bid 1/16 under the current price ... it may trade at that price, but you can't get an execution because so many orders are ahead of you. I think you would have to put in the order during the middle of the night ... anyhoo...SSC is not down as of the moment...and look at silver go...up .15...SSC held up well during the recent decline in silver, and I expect to see it move up as silve moves up into the 6.75+ range. IMHO...GO ssc

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:34 - ID#28594)
Tools for the Economic Jihad Warrior?

By Anthony L. Kimery
The international banking community relies very heavily on a purposely unmarked and little noticed, facility nestled back in the wooded mountains outside the Town of Culpeper, Virginia. There, trillions of dollars are transferred electronically between banks all around the world every day.

"I can destroy any major nation in 24 hours with one platoon of knowledge warriors and make billions of dollars on the international market by doing so, because I will know when this is going to happen and invest accordingly," says Robert Steele, a former CIA officer who, from his Vienna, Va. office, has arguably become the leading world advocate of information security awareness.

"Capitalism equals money equals Americans. The bad news for SWIFT is that they are vulnerable to both physical and electronic attack, and that there is no concept of operational security existent in the private sector, and its exacerbated by the classification of their vulnerability as TOP SECRET by a government that does not realize yet that the center of gravity is the civilian financial system."

Sorry, this site isnt free, but you may wish to have a look round...
Pakistan is said to have brillant programmers...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:43 - ID#330175)
Hey,I appreciate the kind words of support but NO MAS(that means-------
NO MORE to those of you that are not multi-lingual like 'moi'!--I could KILL Studio.R ( maybe I will ) as I load the AK-47 and buy a greyhound ticket to OKC....P.S. am in the midst of delicate negotiations with Oliver ( like Saddam + Bubba ( who is who ) so lay off the attacks till the U.N. can resolve 'this one' too~~~~~~go team gold---and go ABX ( you-dog-you ) arf arf arf

Mike Stewart
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:54 - ID#270253)
Gabelli Gold Fund Manager on CNBC
I just saw Caesar Bryan, manager of the Gabelli Gold Fund on CNBC. He seems like a nice man, but I was shocked by his answers to viewer questions. He was not able to give precise, informed answers to questions about South Africans or Royal Oak. He only likes the simple biggies like NEM, ABX, FCX and Prime. I can get that kind of analysis from last week's Value Line. If these guys are ignoring the mid sized producers and South Africans, its no wonder that they are so very cheap. Contrarian feelings begin to scream inside my brain.

When I see guys like that, I wonder why I am not running a fund!

Mike Stewart
(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:56 - ID#270253)
Follow Up on Gabelli Gold Fund
I think that the Gabelli Gold Fund had Randgold as it's largest holding when it was $8.00 a share. I bought mine for a buck. Now I know why he doesn't like to talk about South Africans.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 10:58 - ID#22956)
I am usually right.....eventually(eh, spuds?)
I usually buy something and watch it tank that day.....and then it takes off ( just kidding Spuds, let me swagger here for a *joking* moment ) . I bought silver it tanked and today it's rallying. Par for the course.

Go silver, hold on and get back up there, dammit!!! board the rocket ship ( blastoff? )

once again spuds, I am just having fun. I am wrong ( almost never ) sometimes ;- ) h M! uh huh ... ( swagger, swagger ) ...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:00 - ID#22956)
you=your.... ( duh ) ....damn cold fingers

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:00 - ID#22956)
Ted....I have one more kind word for you...
I hope you nix don't suck too bad.

go gold!

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:03 - ID#261352)
@ an AU bull market do mining stox outperform initially and
later the metal appreciates at a faster rate. If so is CEF not a good complement to an overall strategy?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:03 - ID#298259)
CCH with cash position of $41.7 mil...looking for acquisition

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:04 - ID#289357)
SDRer @ Gold Dinar

One says half full - the other says half empty.....Just my opinion, which I will quickly adjust if one shows up or I hear back from the Islamic mint where I can go and get one. ( Perhaps I should have written them including some Arabic salutations ) .

You know the old saying about opinions - just like a__holes - everybody has one and thinks everybody else's stinks....

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:24 - ID#273112)
EB be always hav'n fun ... with the keyboard...
cold fingers in CA? ( cough ) thought you lived in LA-land...

I'm still waiting for your putative $259/oz gold, old bean ; ) After all, EB is never, ever wrong ( from "A small town in Germany", John LeCarre )

Spud, pondering ...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:28 - ID#358318)
DOW to hit 9500-9600 soon
Is a gold insurance position still useful? - see the 1929/1998 comparison
chart here and prospect for a run-up and mania peak around April:

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:30 - ID#273112)
@BillD @ SSC
yesssss ... the 1/16 point trades are quite damn difficult. One broker told me that although it traded in 1/16ths and finer, he couldn't place an order in same unit. Exit that brokerage.

I often think that the stock market is one giant scam, with only insiders & brokers making any money ( and, of course, our EB; )

I've watched SSC for the last 16 years. I reckon the backruptcy price of 1/8 a share ( then went up to 4 or so ) was the worst moment of me life. I was this close ( from "Dark Rivers of the Heart", Dean Kuntz ) from buying a bazillion shares @ 1/8. sigh.

Now all LGB & I can do is grub about for chump change working the old SSC dry wells ( grin ) .




GO ELEMENT 114!!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:33 - ID#287277)
Silverbaron--Perhaps I should have written them including some Arabic saluations."

As they say, great minds... {:- ) : I thought about that too, but prudence won-out! Id prefer not to offend these folks ( most particularly as I find myself in accord with their view of western banking! As you say, differences of opinion are what makes markets! Good Luck to you...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:42 - ID#225273)
CBJ & Copper
To all:

Copper is showing signs of a bottom and a turnaround. This will be great news for many mining companies, including Tolerant1's AZCO.
Yesterday, Cambior announced it would not place a certain copper mine into production because of the low price.
At first, I thought copper's bounce might be related to that announcement. But with the follow-through in today's price action. I think it's more than that. Looks like copper could stage a rally here.
I'll keep an eye on this.

Also, the XAU has closed the down gap from Monday's action. I think the bulls are getting back into control. I want to see a little more upside in both gold and the XAU before I get too excited.

Now is the time for hope, not panic. Later today, it may be time for heroic action.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:48 - ID#225273)
Frustrated & CCH

CCH has one mine in Quebec that is just going gangbusters. Its Mexican mine has never panned out insofar as finding reserves is concerned. ( It did produce gold at a profit for a year or so when prices were higher. )
The project in Panama has been on hold for a year or so and I don't know if a higher gold price will be enough to bring it back on line.
The shares should rise well with a runup in the gold price.
Management still believes there may be a large, underground deposit in Mexico -- Santa Gertrudis -- and has said it will drill deep holes there this year.
There are a lot of shares outstanding in CCH. But if a higher gold price brings production back to Santa Gertrudis and puts the Panama deal back on stream, then they should soar. But that's two IFs.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 11:59 - ID#317193)
Silverbaron & tolerant1
Thank you both for the information and assistace regarding retirement plans. Tom

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:00 - ID#228100)
Spud / Gebernax - Please elaborate
Those figures listed are rising at about same rate of inflation ( 5,349 to 5,522 = about 3% per year ) . Since the rate of growth is about the same rate as inflation, why should this cause big problems now? As far back as I can remember ( 1960's ) , people have complained about the national debt.
What's wrong with the US government borrowing money? The government borrows money to buy airplanes, to improve infrastructure, and to educate people. Corporations and individuals spread these costs over a period of time ( as they are used ) with depreciation, while the US government spreads these costs over time with 30 year T-Bill and other debt.

No one dislikes Clinton and his cronies more than I do. But since the economy has been plodding along with the same level of debt ( after inflation ) for the past few years, it is difficult to understand why the debt will cause a problem any time soon.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:03 - ID#298259)
In Oct. CCH had around 55 mill., like so many other mining companies, is clearly feeling the pinch. Lets just hope they can find a suitable acquisition soon...before the money runs out.

My life is full of IF's lately, but I'm not complaining...things could get real interesting with CNPGF..."IF" the POG hits an upward draft. Hear's hoping for the all the IF's...GO GOLD.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:12 - ID#225273)
Frustrated: Here's to the IFs

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:17 - ID#31868)
Take a peak at ING.TO on NASDAQ and ING in Canada - interesting from a copper standpoint as well. And they have plenty of cash to survive anything.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:23 - ID#261352)
@ Preacher commenting about bottom in copper? Could El Nino (sp) aftermath
signal uptick in the commodities in the summer and fall? Great
time for DOW downturn. Remember the Broncos won the BOWL.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:27 - ID#246224)
Regarding Donald's China Deflation article last night
China said they would spend 500 Mln on public works ( this to raise the GNP by 2 to 3% ??? ) . The said they would provide liquidity to banks which were having problems because of the significant down turn in the domestic economy. Four months of negative growth numbers. 10% drop in factory wages. Real estate vacnat and no tenants available.

"We will not devalue...We will not devalue...We will not devalue."

Folks, China will either devalue or its export economy ( the source of its economic growth ) will die. It is happening, it is here. The question is when they will do it and how they will do it. What amount of pain will they be willing to endure for the good of others??? They will look for a way to make it appear as someone elses doing in order to save face.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:28 - ID#316193)
What Happend Will Happen Again..Read 1929 History Lesson

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:29 - ID#28594)
Ted & Kristine
My CyberFriend Nick@C>Nick@C expressed so well my feelings. I shall only add these brief thoughts:
Kristine, when your asset side of the ledger includes such opinionated, strong minds from across the world, and those minds focus energy on your well-being,you have an AAA+ bond in your portfolio!

And more seriously: my closet friend fought through the battle you are now waging. Some days were dark, scary, filled with doubt...but she fought through it...and WON! Clean bill of health against all odds.

This is much easier to tell than to do...but as Nick@C has said, if youre married to Ted, youve got the Right Stuff! All good thoughts, and prayers ( which medical science now says Works! God Bless.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:29 - ID#365216)
CCH press release
Company Press Release

Campbell Resources Reports a Loss Resulting from Lower Gold Prices,
Decreased Production and Non-Cash Charges

Company Maintains Cash Position of $41.7 million, Seeking Acquisition

TORONTO-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --Feb. 25, 1998--Campbell Resources ( TSE:CCH - news; ME:CCH - news;
NYSE:CCH - news )

Financial Results

The impact of lower gold prices, decreased gold production from the Santa Gertrudis Mine and a write-down in the carrying
value of natural resource properties resulted in Campbell recording a loss of $40.4 million, or $0.27 per share for the year
ended December 31, 1997, compared to net income of $9 million ( $0.06 per share in 1996 ) . Excluding write-downs and the
closure costs of $31.7 million, there was a loss from operations of $12.2 million in 1997 compared to income from operations
of $6.7 million in 1996.

Following the drop in gold prices in 1997, the Company prepared a new life-of-mine plan for the Joe Mann Mine, calculating
mineable reserves based on a gold price of US$300 per ounce in 1998, US$325 per ounce in 1999 and US$375 thereafter.
As a result of this new plan, the Company has recorded a write-down of $28 million before taxes, or $25.7 million net of the
drawdown of related deferred mining taxes.

Total gold production in 1997 was 113,000 ounces compared to the 125,000 ounces produced in 1996. The decrease in
1997 production was attributable to lower grade material mined at the Santa Gertrudis Mine and the cessation of mining
operations at Santa Gertrudis in early December.

Cash operating costs in 1997 were US$288 per ounce of gold produced compared with US$252 per ounce a year earlier.
Campbell's realized gold revenue of US$336 per ounce in 1997 compared to realized gold revenue of US$396 in 1996.
Campbell currently has 45,000 ounces of gold hedged in 1998 at an average price of US$327 per ounce.

As of December 31, 1997, Campbell had working capital of $49.0 million including cash and short-term deposits of $41.7
million. This compares with working capital of $65.5 million and cash and short-term deposits of $55.3 million in 1996. As a
result of increased mining costs and decreased revenues from gold sales, cash flow from operations before the change in
non-cash operating working capital decreased to $0.6 million in 1997 compared to $21.4 million in 1996.

The Joe Mann Mine in Quebec experienced an excellent year in 1997 with gold production of 73,500 ounces, an increase of
4.5 percent over 1996. Cash operating costs were further reduced by US$8 to US$264 per ounce. The higher gold
production was due to an increase in the mill head grade and an increase in mill recoveries. In 1997, mined ore graded 0.30
ounces per ton, 3.4 percent higher than the 0.29 ounce per ton material mined a year earlier, in part the result of better than
expected grades in some stopes. Mill recoveries increased to 93.9 percent in 1997 from 93.2 percent in 1996.

The program to deepen the No. 2 mine shaft by almost 1,100 feet was completed in December on schedule and under budget.
The shaft now extends to a depth of more than 3,700 ft. below surface. Lateral development to connect the ore and waste
pass systems will be completed by the first half of 1998. Subsequent lateral development will be initiated on the six new
production levels.

Gold production at the Santa Gertrudis Mine of 39,200 ounces was less than projected for 1997. Costs increased to US$333
per ounce. A decision was made to suspend mining operations at Santa Gertrudis in December 1997 after attempts to find a
sufficient supply of easily mineable high-grade ore were unsuccessful. Despite the suspension of mining activity, Santa Gertrudis
will continue to produce gold in 1998 as ore presently on the pads continues to be leached. In 1998 Campbell expects Santa
Gertrudis will produce approximately 12,000 to 15,000 ounces at a significantly lower cash operating cost than in 1997.

Total exploration expenditures for 1997 were $4.7 million compared to $7.2 million in 1996. Of this amount, $3.7 million was
spent at Santa Gertrudis compared to $4.9 million in 1996. Exploration initiated at the beginning of 1997 at Santa Gertrudis
was primarily designed to delineate easily accessible deposits that would provide near-term production. While efforts to find
mineralization within the mine area were successful, we were unable to locate near-surface, economic deposits around the mine
in the time frame available to ensure no disruption in production.

Three major structures with significant gold-bearing potential were identified southeast of the mine following completion of a
comprehensive compilation program. These major structures were the focus of exploration during the second half of 1997 and
will continue to be the focus of exploration in 1998. The La Gloria shear zone is a structure that is associated with three
exploration targets known as the El Tigre, Nadia and Tracy zones. These three zones extend over a 1.1-kilometre-section of
the La Gloria shear zone, leaving approximately 4.4 kilometres of the structure as yet unexplored. The Tracy zone was
discovered during a regional geochemical soil sampling program. Subsequent trenching and drilling has confirmed the presence
of mineralization at depth. The Tracy zone has a known strike length of 125 metres and ranges in width up to 38 metres and
remains open along strike and at depth. Further south along the La Gloria shear zone are the Nadia and El Tigre zones. Many
of the drill holes testing the El Tigre zone intersected economic grades of oxidized mineralization. The Nadia zone, located
between the Tracy and El Tigre zones has undergone initial exploration including sampling, mapping and trenching with
encouraging results.

A second structure known as the Ontario shear zone occurs as a splay branching off of the La Gloria shear zone. Trenching,
channel sampling and drilling have delineated a 450-metre-long target area associated with the Ontario shear that hosts the
Greta Northeast, Greta Hill, Greta Ontario and Greta Sur zones. To date more than half of the holes returned multi-gram
intersections over widths of up to 4.5 metres. The 500-metre-long interval between the junction of the Ontario and La Gloria
shear zones and the most southwestern drilling on the Greta Shear also appears promising with two surface samples assaying
23.09 and 13.91 grams gold per tonne.

A program of soil sampling, trenching and preliminary drilling is continuing to evaluate the Esperanza, Lupita and Lupita South
zones which are associated with the 5.0-kilometre-long Esperanza-Lupita fault zone, situated southeast of the Ontario shear
zone. Sampling has returned high gold values of up to 267 grams per tonne over 0.5 metres.

In addition to near-surface oxide reserves, Campbell is investigating the potential for deeper gold-bearing sulphide
mineralization. Results of Campbell's exploration efforts and an independent consultant's report supporting the similarities
between Santa Gertrudis and the Carlin Trend have prompted management to seek a joint venture partner to evaluate the
potential for deep sulphide mineralization. The Company received significant interest in the deep sulphide potential of the

property from major gold mining companies who visited the property with a view to participating in a joint venture exploration
program. The level of interest was high, however, the current gold price environment and reduced exploration budgets resulted
in no firm offers to participate at this time. Campbell still believes in the deep sulphide potential of the property but in the
short-term will continue to focus on exploration of near-surface oxide mineralization until gold prices, and exploration budgets,

In Panama, development of the Cerro Quema project has been put on hold and the project has been placed on a care and
maintenance basis pending an improvement in the gold price. Outlook

In 1997 the gold mining industry suffered a setback resulting from a significant drop in the price of gold. This set back has
made Campbell's management re-assess every aspect of its business. The long-term growth prospects for the Company are
considered to be good. We remain committed to enhancing shareholder value by striving to increase gold production and
reserves either through exploration on our mine properties or through the acquisition of compatible assets. We will also
improve shareholder value by continuing to improve efficiencies at our existing operations. We are confident that a program of
focused exploration, prudent capital and exploration expenditures and the ultimate acquisition of a high-quality asset will see
Campbell through this period of depressed gold prices.

Campbell Resources is a growth-oriented gold mining company with operations in Quebec, Canada and Sonora, Mexico, and
a development-stage gold project in Panama. The Company is currently exploring on its mine properties in Quebec and
Mexico and seeking acquisition opportunities elsewhere in Latin America.

Campbell Resources Inc.
( NYSE:CCH - news; Incorporated under the laws of Canada )
as at December 31,
( Expressed in thousands of Canadian dollars )

1997 1996
------- -------
Cash and short-term deposits $41,735 $55,302
Receivables 4,805 8,270
Inventories 7,250 9,134
Prepaids 995 749
-------- ---------
Total current assets 54,785 73,455
------- -------

OTHER ASSETS 986 1,271
------- -------

Less accumulated depreciation
and amortization ( 102,145 ) ( 59,307 )
------- -------
68,111 90,572
------- -------

Total assets $123,882 $165,298
------- -------
------- -------

Accounts payable $3,989 $5,504
Accrued liabilities 1,757 2,337
Income taxes payable 31 94
------- -------
Total current liabilities 5,777 7,935
------- -------

Capital stock 121,425 118,605
Foreign currency translation
adjustment 408 ( 248 )
Retained earnings ( deficit ) ( 16,709 ) 23,701
------- -------
Total shareholders' equity 105,124 142,058
-------- -------
Total liabilities and
-------- --------
shareholders' equity $123,882 $165,298
-------- ---------
-------- ---------

( Expressed in thousands of Canadian dollars )

Three months Year
ended December 31 ended December 31
1997 1996 1997 1996
------- ------ ----- ------

METAL SALES $13,798 $13,859 $52,635 $67,180
------- ------ ----- ------


Mining 12,374 10,812 46,681 44,667
General administration 982 971 3,203 3,064
Depreciation and
amortization 2,809 1,144 9,587 9,604
Exploration 1,101 1,192 5,315 3,179
-------- ------- ------- --------
17,266 14,119 64,786 60,514
-------- ------- ------- --------

Income ( loss ) from operations
before writedown and
closure costs of natural
resource properties ( 3,468 ) ( 260 ) ( 12,151 ) 6,666

Writedown and closure
costs of natural
resource properties 31,684 31,684
-------- ------- ------- --------

Income ( loss )
from operations ( 35,152 ) ( 260 ) ( 43,835 ) 6,666
-------- ------- ------- --------

Other income ( expense )
Other income 847 1,144 2,096 3,595

Convertible debenture
interest expense ( 158 ) ( 153 ) ( 639 ) ( 661 )
-------- ------- ------- --------
689 991 1,457 2,934
-------- ------- ------- --------

Income ( loss ) before taxes ( 34,463 ) 731 ( 42,378 ) 9,600
Income and
mining taxes ( recovery ) ( 1,974 ) ( 123 ) ( 1,968 ) 588
-------- ------- ------- --------

NET INCOME ( LOSS ) ( $32,489 ) $854 ( $40,410 ) $9,012
------- ------- -------- --------
------- ------- -------- --------

EARNINGS ( LOSS ) PER SHARE ( $0.21 ) $0.01 ( $0.27 ) $0.06


Campbell Resources Inc.
Steven Dawson, 416/ 366-5201
416/ 367-3294 ( FAX )

More Quotes and News:
Campbell Resources Inc ( Toronto:CCH.TO - news; NYSE:CCH - news;
Montreal:CCH.M - news; Montreal:CCH.M - news )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:30 - ID#269191)
Gold lease rates.
Today's lease rates are very interesting. The yeild curve has inverted.
Is a shortage of gold developing?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:30 - ID#22956)
*It looks like a pattern forming*
The USbuck is trying to form a pattern......EH? It is loose ( trying to consolidate, eh? ) but big and will likely form for another week or two.....and then what? Spuds?? yu the man. tell us baked-potatoed...up or down? Hard to say, yes? Let us get on the winning side.

Pennant ( triangle ) watch.....US$..........Ted, you are point-man. Lock and Load ( mr ak47, rat-tat-tat ) . We are going on some night patrol too. Keep yer ears and yer eyes........well, not, you too Windy...btw, It was I who sold the 7000 tonnes and SirSpudster was the proud purchaser....uh huh. the grind

spudies, I is still at

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:34 - ID#28594)
A. Goose, Rhodium at 6...
Mme. Defarge, knitting properly encoded, awaits--with her usual
unseemly glee--the bloody specactle that will ensue.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:34 - ID#26793)
@Bill El Zebub
CEF is about the dullest insurance thing you can own. I am retired so my strategy is possibly different than yours. I don't need to be super rich, I just want to keep living the way I do no matter what the economy or the politicians decide to do.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:42 - ID#222231)
BillD. Spudmaster, trading SSC
Here's some posts back a few days about trading SSC. It can be done profitably if you use the proper trading discipline.

Date: Mon Feb 23 1998 20:20
Pete ( 223 re:ssc ) ID#222231:
My Dear 223,

Consider that ssc is at 1.25/share
1/8 increase = 0.125/share
1.25/share divided into 0.125*100 = 10%

ssc at 1.125/share
1/8 increase = 0.125/share
1.125/share divided into 0.125 *100 = 11%

1/8 increase = 0.125/share
1.00/share divided into 0.125*100 = 121/2%

If you deal in a block of 10,000 shares

at 1.25/share * 10,000 = $12,500*10% = $1,250.00

at 1.125/share * 10,000 = $11,250*11% = $1,237.50

at 1.00/share * 10,000 = 10,000*121/2% = $1,250.00

SSC has traded within a narrow range for several yrs. I've traded it for
many yrs and made money within a few weeks/trade. A 10% to 12%
profit within weeks is not bad, IMHO. All the above less commissions
of course which can run anywhere from $50 to $100 per trade
depending on which broker you are using. On an annual % I have
doubled and at times more than doubled my money trading SSC.
Nothing to sneeze at! I wish I could short it also, but because of it's
price I'm not allowed to.

Now consider SSC is at $0.75/share and increases 1/8
$0.75/share divided into 0.125*100 = 16.67%
10,000 shares*$0.75*16.67% = $1,250.00 less commissions in and

SSC usually has decent volume. I just condition my trades with my
broker to sell any portion or all if I can get my sell position until they
are all traded. I use technical analysis to position my trades, such as
a combiation of Bollinger Bands and RSI when they show a buy signal. ( Both have to signal together! )

Date: Mon Feb 23 1998 23:29
223 ( Pete and LGB, thanks for the reply about SSC ) ID#26669:
Pete, I took the liberty of archiving your discussion about SSC trades.
It sounds like a viable way of doing things and I thank you for the
considered response to my question. I would hope at some point in
my life to develop the knowledge and skill to do something similar.

At my stage of development I just haven't gained the expertise to risk
real money day trading or short term trading. I've been accumulating
SSC, waiting for the inevitable big move upward again. I hope to be
holding it when it makes its big move upward

LGB, commisions are one thing but taxes are another. I think its too
risky to do it that way then have Uncle Sam get the lion's share of it.
Might change my mind if they get a flat tax or national sales tax,

Date: Tue Feb 24 1998 00:05
Pete ( 223-ALL-About SSC and many other despicable things. )
I currently hold 20,000 shares of SSC. Since I acquired them I'm going to
let it ride. I do'nt want to sell and then kick myself, because I believe
we're in for a long move this time. ( beside, I'm sitting pretty now. I got in
at $0.75 ) There is a correction in silver now, which is normal. $6.50/oz is
still a good run up from $5.00+/-. Better than gold has shown. Not many
here want to believe gold is a controlled commodity as i've posted before.
Until the baby boomers stop inserting $18 bil +/- /mo into equities, interest
rates rise substantially, the dollar is currency of choice, we're all
whistling dixie! ( also the propaganda mills stop asserting everything is
hunky dory )


The type of trading I told you about is not that hard to understand. The
main criteria is to find something that has a low downside risk and moves
in a narrow range. After all, when an equity such as SSC is $1.00/share or
lower, unless they go into bankruptcy ( which they did for a short period ) ,
on a big block you can trade for small percentage gains using techs that I
mentioned and your winning trades usually offset any losing trades by 3/1
or better.

When we have crisises such as Asia, Clinton, threat of war, and gold
does'nt move, you know ( or should know ) the game is rigged, for now.

GO SILVER-HI HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Return to Kitco Homepage

Date: Tue Feb 24 1998 00:20
223 ( Pete you're right about the trading ranges. ) ID#26669:
but there is always the special moneymaking circumstance. I always wonder
what traders do to time sales and set limits during the big runups so they
maximize the big profits without having to sit glued to their computer screens.

Date: Tue Feb 24 1998 00:28
Pete ( 223 ) ID#222231:
As I said, I'm holding on now because of the fundamentals in place such as WB,
spike in silver, etc. Otherwise when something as SSC was in a long basing
pattern, I just placed an open order to sell at a plus 1/8 or better. ( no need to sit
there all day and wait ) Like my pappy used to tell me, ONE IN THE HAND IS

GOOD HUNTING 223!!!!!!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:48 - ID#348129)
@BILL GATES worth somewhere around $50 Billion
Is this an inflated market? Over-exhuberence? Runaway insanity?
The lemmings will keep on buying.......
Example: Microsoft:
Earn/Shr ---- 1.46
P/E ------------- 58.18
Mkt Cap ------ 204.4B
Div/Shr ------ N/A

Oh and a BIG bullish bonus - It pays no dividends.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:49 - ID#289357)
Bill El Zebub @ CEF

It is my plan to use highly leveraged gold/silver investments early in the bull market - then roll the profits into CEF. With the stockpiles so low, and scenarios like ANOTHER's or the great Derivatives melt-down out there, I think a prudent strategy would be to watch the stockpiles very closely. If there is a major drawdown in bullion or if the XAU/gold ratio begins to top out, quickly shift a major fraction into bullion investments...As usual, timing is everything....

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:51 - ID#427357)

REF: Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 10:14
"Yellow Jacket__A ( Cornucopia gold find ) ID#4289:
Some good news for a change!
Bonanza - Grade Gold Intercept Reported From Cornucopia's Ivanhoe Property Stock is already 57% up this morning"

Just about a week ago Mike Sheller submitted his latest market report for posting to the Internet, providing details about CORNUCOPIA --- the report's name is "PENNIES FROM HEAVEN."
He also had a couple of other very interesting low-priced picks.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:52 - ID#255151)

The Blue and Gold Pacers fell to the eeevil Lakers. Revenge to be exacted next week, and thus signal the launch of the long awaited Gold Bull Market. On a mission from Gold to search Indy for Cooper Red and purchase ANOTHER Maple Leaf.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:56 - ID#31868)
For those of you that do not want to commit to
brain salad surgery on silver stocks - SSC is a dog - now buy some CFB and FSR, sit, let simmer for a minimum of 6 to 10 weeks and voila' no brainer.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:57 - ID#252150)
If you check back to the time it was built, I'm sure that you will find that there were Quebec cabinet ministers who shared all the graft with their counterparts in Ottawa, who were also Quebecois.

Re: disaster relief-I don't begrudge Quebec any relief for the natural disasters that occured there, but when they demand relief for Hydro Quebec, which is a private Co.--that just goes to show the extent of their greed, deceit & hypocrisy.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 12:59 - ID#410198)
Leland,GREAT POST thank you,info that all should read,another reason I love Kitco

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:02 - ID#427357)

REF: MoReGoLd ( @BILL GATES worth somewhere around $50 Billion )

I have a very interesting historical comparison relative to the MICROSOFT MANIA. If you or ANYONE IS INTERESTed in it, I will send it to you.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:13 - ID#225273)
Bill El Zebub & El Nino

I'm sorry, friend, I can't comment intelligently on the effects of El Nino on copper prices. That's beyond my radar screen.
I know I just want the price of copper to rise; I'm a little less interested in the reason it does so, if it does.

The Preacher

Crystal Ball
(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:23 - ID#287367)
XAU up almost 2.50 ( or 3.5% )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:24 - ID#269409)
@ Preacher....dump that copper!
I don't know Preach...I'd kinda like to see copper stay low..else they'll crank up production and produce more silver ( whose annual total production is primarily a by product of copper mining ) .

Better for silevr prices if copper sells for less than a buck a pound! Just a bias from a guy who this very day, is adding substantially to silver physical holdings..... We have seen teh current bottom..and it's over $6.00!

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:28 - ID#261352)
@ Preacher...California ( now) and Florida and the Carolinas(hurricane season)
Rebuilding always needs copper.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:32 - ID#269409)
@ Vronsky....Bill Gates
Ya gotta hand it to whomever bought Microsoft shares ten years ago. Or Intel for that matter. As GoldBugs have lost more than half their net worth during that time ( if we look at inflation realistically ) those, Hi Tech. stock investors made gains in the THOUSANDS of percent.

We have a lot of Millionaires in the Silicon valley here who have retired on their stock options and investments, some of them are in their 30's! You won't see them losing their "paper" fortunes to some mythical future "crash" either, since they now own homes, and all kinds of diversified investment portfolios. I keep hoping some of em will start looking into PM's and there are indications that this is beginning to occur.

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:34 - ID#273112)
"What's wrong with the US government borrowing money?"

Nothing, as long as it pays it back, without turning me and my children into slaves to do it ( I currently have 39% of my earnings taken to support the bloated corrupt institution called FedGov ) .

Or, if Joe Everyman is allowed to borrow an infinite amount of money and never pay it back - no problem. Let's all just do it, Year2000.

Why is it that the FedGov ( really a handful of elite humans ) can borrow endlessly using YOU and ME as collateral for money they spend on themselves?

What part of "you a slave, you believe it" don't you understand? Ah, I see, you drive a new Toyota Land Bruiser, live in a $250,000 home on borrowed money, have endless cheap goodies available from SEA - so as long as you are fat, dumb & happy, Hitler & Nazis could be governing America.

"Those who trade a little freedom for a little security soon shall have neither"
Benjamin Franklin

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:35 - ID#31868)
I have been looking for a piece like that. Thank you so much for posting it!!!

Gulp, gulp, oh hell, gulp a Cuervo toast to ya!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:36 - ID#411149)
tolerant1- must dito your DOG call and also agree with your recomendation! Throw in a little DROOY and you really got as
WINNER plus [see below]

Might add if any of you are SERIOUS PRINCIPALS you ought to give
Arden Larson - "arden l larson"
or Mike Sheller - Mike Sheller
a call, they got a real WINNER.

Tally Ho

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:41 - ID#317193)
Silverbarron-as an alternative to buying gold and silver bullion or coins-which was the query I posed-CEF seems to fit my needs. I called and info is in route. Obviously I was not looking at mining shares, just an alternative to bullion. Any others you know of to reveiw and compare? Again, much appreciated. Tom

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:41 - ID#269409)
@ Bart...the site rocks....
Bart, I'd sure like to see the site remain as it is. The dynamics of discourse here are excellent. Any major fiddling might ruin that, and turn it into a "ghost town" of just a core few "clubby" like minded types.

If you go to pais registration and make access more difficult, I for one will bail out. No great loss to the site, since I'm just a "little fish" and not a pro trader/analyst. Nonetheless, I think many other diverse voices would disappear as well.

You have here, the perfect combination, of hard TA, PM related wealth of info., and peripheral topics that keep the discussion flowing in an interesting manner.

Even the "HH" types, would best be silenced by the eloquence of an "RJ" self policing such stupidity from the site, rather than censorship or restrictions.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:41 - ID#238295)
the action
I like the action today. Gold stocks very strong, but bullion up just modestly. I like it when the gold stocks lead. But when bullion leads I get nervous.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:46 - ID#246224)
LGB@the Scene
I think if we use Donald's Dow/Gold ratio as a guide ( 1988 Dow@2500, Gold@400 or so D/G=6.25 ) it would at that time have indicated a market verses gold which was consistent with a fair valuation. Since the ratio had bottomed out in 1980 or so at a value of ~ 1.5 we could see trend that we were on a market upswing and be willing to take the ride, no? I could trust this measure to tell me what the markets thought the riskiest investment in the world was worth in relationship to the most riskless. As for today we are at the pinacle of a very tall mountain. Been here before ( 1929, 1968-9 ) and it don't look pretty on the other side. Wonder how it will be reversed and what it will look like this time around?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:47 - ID#31868)
There is more to it than the government borrowing money. First off, it is not money, it is paper with numbers on it. Secondly, they have to pay interest on something that does not exist.

In their oath to the office they serve it is my considered opinion that each member of our Government could be served papers by the courts and brought to trial, for they have clearly broken the law.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:48 - ID#28098)
Allen, re: Folks, China will either devalue
or its export economy ( the source of its economic growth ) will die.

While one can not dispute anything you say, might one suggest we walk the circle...

All that you put forward is the true Western, industrialized P.O.V. What changes if we consider that China might not HOLD the Western view? For the sake of discussion, let me bring forward a few points for your consideration:

1. Unlike western industrialized welfare states, China does not depend on economic growth to affirm her political legitimacy. She is what we in the West call a totalitarian state, and brute force is the bulwark of her political legitimacy.

2. If others---more knowledgeable than I--are correct, and Chinas 55 year Time-line is directed toward the establishment of a New Chinese Empire, then it follows that beggaring her neighbors by devaluing her currency to push her product over product of said neighbors is bad POLITICAL policy.

3. It is very difficult for this round-eyed analyst to understand why China, with an economy growing at 5-6% a year, a central bank whose prima concern in October of 1997 was SLOWING DOWN the GROWTH of foreign exchange reserves, and a workforce totally at the command of the government is viewed as a fragile economy.
Always enjoy your posts Allen. friend! ( I have no closet friends of which I'm aware!!!{:- )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:48 - ID#255284)
listen to Amarillo Highway --- Terry Allen
Direct from Amarillo Tx ( ma spiritual home )
Oprah is victorious over the misguided cattle boys.

The winner is Free Speech.

Long may the SPEACH be free at kitco too

The Hatt
(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:49 - ID#294232)
Golds trading ahead of bullion leads me to believe that the gold market is on the verge of a breakout! I also liked the action in the last two nights of trading overseas. Something is definitely brewing and on the surface it looks good for gold. S.H. Is far from finished as well and it will only be a matter of time until words begin flying followed by bombs. Donot get me wrong I DONOT WANT TO SEE WAR however I think it is to late to avoid! Also note USA Gold reports that lease rates on gold are beginning to rise, VERY BULLISH.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:52 - ID#254110)
Let me get this point.
Im new to this and you guys may have discussed this a thousand times but arent these guys at the CBs trying to get off the gold standard and make floating currencies in an open market the real value of international exchange? If so that would release gold as some sort of international collateral and make it a mere commodity flowing to the rhythm of supply and demand?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 13:52 - ID#246224)
Bart, a bizzare suggestion (just for fun).
Give everyone a button to eject anyone else, but identify who the ejector is. Just like the cold war: mutual assured destruction ( MAD ) , eh?! I get to be the Cuban option. Me, me, me!!! ( hopping from one foot to the other, hands waving ) Our motto: Be nice or your history! ( watch over your shoulder though! )

Just a thought.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:07 - ID#28585)
For Those Who Want a Little Chuckle RE: ROYAL OAK
The following article defines the term, "deluded."

( I guess the old lady Witte imagines there are companies lining up around the block to acquire her "attractive" company. Rumor has it she will soon announce a special contingency plan to protect the company from an alien invasion from Mars ) .

Royal Oak Adopts Shareholders' Rights Plan

Wednesday, February 25, 1998 06:29 PM

KIRKLAND, Wash.-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --Feb. 25, 1998--ROYAL OAK ( TSE:RYO. ) ( AMEX:RYO ) Royal Oak Mines Inc.

( TSE:RYO ) ( AMEX:RYO ) announced today the adoption by its Board of Directors of a Shareholders' Rights Plan to
ensure equal treatment of the Company's shareholders upon an acquisition of control of the Company.

The Plan is also designed to provide the Company's Board of Directors with sufficient time, should an offer for control of the
Company be made, to maximize shareholder values by developing alternative transactions, which may include the solicitation
of competing offers. The Plan was not adopted in response to, nor is the Company aware of, any pending or threatened
acquisition of control of the Company.

In order to implement the Plan, the Company has authorized the issuance of one Right in respect of each common share of the
Company outstanding to holders of record at 5:00 p.m. ( Toronto time ) on February 25, 1998. The Rights will initially trade
with the common shares and be represented by the common share certificates.

On the occurrence of certain triggering events, including the acquisition by a person or group of 20 percent or more of the
common shares, other than by way of a transaction approved under the Plan or, in certain circumstances, by the Board of
Directors of the Company, the Rights will entitle holders ( other than the acquiring person or group ) to acquire common shares
of the Company at a 50 percent discount to the market price.

The Rights are not triggered by a purchase of common shares made pursuant to a "Permitted Bid" or a "Competing Permitted
Bid". A Permitted Bid must, among other things, be made to all shareholders by way of a takeover bid circular, be open for
acceptance for at least 60 days and be accepted by holders of more than 50 percent of the outstanding common shares,
exclusive of those held by the acquiror. A Competing Permitted Bid must satisfy the same criteria as a Permitted Bid, except
that the Competing Permitted Bid must remain open for acceptance for the greater of 21 days and the 60th day after the date on
which the Permitted Bid then in existence was made.

Although the Plan is effective immediately, it will be submitted to the Company's shareholders for confirmation at the 1998
shareholders' meeting.

Margaret K. Witte, President and Chief Executive Officer of Royal Oak, commenting on the need to adopt a Shareholders'
Rights Plan, said: "We are primarily concerned about protecting the interests of our shareholders so that they receive fair value
for their investment in the Company. The gold mining industry is facing a critical time due to the price of gold which is at an
18-year low of under US$300 per ounce. We anticipate that there will be further rationalization in the industry where
undervalued companies with attractive assets will be acquired by large gold producers that are in a strong financial position.
We also see companies of similar size merging when synergies can create a larger and stronger company that will benefit from
premium market multiples. We believe that the underlying asset value and future potential of our Kemess gold-copper mine are
not fully recognized in the market value of the Company. Accordingly, we believe that this is an appropriate time to adopt a
Shareholders' Rights Plan".

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:07 - ID#246224)
As much as political entities would like to think they are independant of financial consideration, they are not. I think of this like the conflict of power between the Catholic Church and various kings in Middle Ages Europe: Neither was sufficiently strong to eliminate the other, but neither was willing to give up trying!

A totalitarian state is never in control of the world it lives in. China might like to use capitalism to establish its empire, but in so doing it becomes vulnerable to a loss of its adgenda to the power of capital and privatization. Eventually states built on slavery ( modernly called communism ) fail. They fail in relationship to other states who allow varying dgrees of freedom to their citizenry because self interest is a tremendous motivator: winner of the hearts and minds so to speak.

Its seems to me that China is trying to evolve its state into something other than a totalitarian state. In so doing they have lost control of the outcome. By incorporating capitalistic and private enterprise elements into its system it has sown the seeds of its own transmutaion. But the outcome will be unintended. They may have a plan but I doubt they have a clue ( silly grin thing with tongue wagging ) .

IMHO as always. Glad not to be Chinese. Have enough problems without that concern.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:08 - ID#269409)
@ Allen
With you there Allen on the potential for major reversal in trend. I believe we're shortly going to be at that crossroads also..with one caveat, our economic conditions are still extremely favorable in virtually every important category with the exception of debt..even there, debt as a percentage of GNP/GDP is not out of line. Thus 9000 or 10,000 DOW is not beyond possibility.

Also, not sure DOW is the best measure of where folks are actually investing. The S&P 500 has far outperformed the DOW the past 2 years, and is likely a better measure of where most mutual fund investors and 401 K investors are positioned.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:08 - ID#238295)
Kitco Site
Bart: I too like the site just as it is. I think advertising would be a better way to raise revenues than charging fees for full text. I always use the full text. It is very cumbersome to read a post from the short text format.

If you must charge a fee for full text, I suggest you wait until gold has rallied to well over $300. People here will then be in a better mood and more willing to part with a few bucks.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:10 - ID#255284)
Gold is groovy
Yeah, well I'm heading *into* the closet.. see ya

just keep reading. Try the history of gold at vronski's bald Eagle site, or if you really want to know, look at Roy Davies most excellent site

A Comparative Chronology of Money
from Ancient Times to the Present Day

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:14 - ID#269409)
@ Ray/Tolerant SSC "dog"??????
How can you guy's possibly call SSC a dog? The stock has gone from .65 cents in July whne silver was at it's 97 low, to 1.25 today. A gain of fully NINETY TWO 92% percent!!!

Let's compare the other "premiere" mining shares ( including Tolerant's vaunted FSR ) to SSC's 92% gain.

July 97 Today Percent gain

SSRIF 3.00 4.25 42%
PAASF 5.70 9.62 69%
FSR 30.00 42.37 40%

Looks like SSC has far outperformed the other shares in making 92% gains in seven months. Hardly the performance of a "dog". I must respectfully say, may I own many such "dogs" in my investment future!

( Come on SSC, drop just a LITTLE bit more so I can get back in will ya!! )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:16 - ID#28098)
Carl, a thought...

The one thing USG has going for it, is WONDROUS PR...
Would our window on the world be less obscured by that fog of hot PR
air,if we devised a small, modest commodity tracking index priced in a special basket of hegemonies-- ( 1 ) ECU, ( 2 ) yen/yuan, ( 3 ) USD, weighted equally? And tracked just 'criticals': oil, grains and ? Your feedback much appreciated! {:- )
Have to run. bbl

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:17 - ID#255284)
like a game of killer...
Ejector buttons!! ;- )

You'd be fun at the last hand of poker one 3.00 am. Hope I'm there.

noone take up my wager 02:01?

OK make it a 1/2 oz Gold Kiwi 9999 bullion coin vs 1/2 oz Maple anyone beside Carraberra seen one of these beauties?


(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:19 - ID#28098)
Wretch {:- ) ) ) ) !!!!
I'm having one of THOSE days...thus far I've done absolutely
nothing RIGHT!

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:22 - ID#259191)
Bart - I think you should charge people at least $200 for the honor of posting on this site

That would go a long way to eliminating all the people posting under
multiple handles, by far the worst problem plaguing this site. That
way, if JTF and ANOTHER wanted to continue their game, for example,
they would have to fork over $400 for the privilege of continuing
to delude themselves. Also, I think there should be a $125 refund
for people who post on topic for an entire year and don't attack
others. I fear that once people pay their $200, they
will feel entitled to post whatever they want, arguing that
"Hey, I paid my $200." This would be an incentive to post on topic.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:23 - ID#42371)
Dow / S & P bubble to burst!

The Hatt
(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:26 - ID#294232)
Xau up 4.5% trading way ahead of gold!
Whats up??? Could it be that Gold is about to resume its uptrend!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:26 - ID#42371)
Dow & S7 P bubble to burst!
Sorry-it submitted before I had put my message on.

Views on when and if the rally of rallys will ever descend to earth. I was hoping that first quarter would be a little flat and be the percipitant, positioned my puts on the S & P , but now I am beginning to wonder.

Every 'crisis' from Clinton, to Asia, to Iraq seem but a small hiccup as the markets roar forth, in frothy delerium.

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:27 - ID#273112)
@so-called Cardinal Richelou
bernatz du ventadorm - $200?! Never!

Bart, make it 1 ounce of 9999 gold!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:27 - ID#340459)
Go Heavy Metals Go
Dont ever look back....

bernatz du ventadorm
(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:32 - ID#259191)

Bart - I would agree with one ounce of gold. That way
people could join at $300 or, if they were laggards,
$325. But you need to institute this policy right away,
and allow for the refund of 2/3 ounces if people
stay on topic and don't attack others for one year.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:32 - ID#410198)
Venta-whatever is the colour of your flag RED

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:35 - ID#287338)
We Need to gain more interest!
In case you never heard of me. I have been lurking around here for awhile now, and throw in a post now and then. The variety of people with different backgrounds, education's, geographic locations and opinions make this forum invaluable. Today I feel the need to do some coaching. Team Gold is down but far from out. Some of us like myself are badly bruised and some of us have been so badly injured that we've been taken out of the game. But remember its only half time and there is a whole lot more to play. Today was a good day, but we need a lot more like it!

Being a cheerleader for team gold is all well and good, but it doesn't do any good to be a cheerleader in the locker room. Its time to get out on the field. We all know that the bottom line is that team gold will not see major gains until we gain more players.

Get out and spread the word. Of course some will think your crazy, but with enough patience you will have the opportunity to say "I told ya so." Buy your little nephew, your god child or someone some mining shares or a gold coin. One that they can hold in their hand and feel. Show them how to track the value of it. They will develop a sense of ownership and learn what it means to own a hard asset.

There are masses of people out there who believe that an investment in gold means buying jewelry Show them all the real ways to invest in gold and how to track the price. Be a preacher a teacher and a salesman all in one. Don't push them into it, but just make them aware of investments in PM and why you think its good.

There are just masses and masses of people out there who have been taught that the only way to make real money is with the almighty stock market. They are totally ignorant of precious metal investments as insurance, and many think that its only for the real big guys and banks. Show them an insurance that could save their financial well being and someday they will credit you with saving their life.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not asking you or anyone to invest in anything that they do not feel comfortable with. All I am saying is that there is a lot of ignorance out there and its up to us ( the last of the gold bugs ) to spread the word. Explain it out and remember to Keep It Simply! The confused mind always say no.

Oh I almost forgot...

Go Gold!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:43 - ID#335379)
Tolerent1 CFB,FSR ?
Hello Tolerent:
What are the names of these reco's ?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:43 - ID#42371)
@ Strongman
The guys that should be doing that are the mning houses. Unfortunately they are like a herd of cats. Each trying to outsell their future production at lower and lower lives, just so they can continue to pay management salaries for a a year more.

What sort of message does it give investors- when producers dive in as soon as the price hits 300 and they can make 5-10 dollars profit!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:44 - ID#333127)
I've been told platinum is 10x rarer than gold, very very cheap.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:46 - ID#31868)
How about a bunch of the shameless from Team Kitgo buy a banner ad from Bart to keep the site free. Lets say each of us pitches in 1 oz of gold for twelve months.

That way we have one ad banner listed with the rest, and hopefully Bart gets the money he needs to do whatever upgrades he needs and still not have to charge the folks that post and lurk.

How much of an upgrade do you need Bart?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:47 - ID#365216)
thanks Strongman
I think I will copy and paste your post onto an email and send
it out to my friends and family. Very wise words indeed.
I still plan to do a lot of converting to PM Coins before the
2000. It may or may not be a complete disaster, but why take
chances? Thanks again and please keep lurking.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:50 - ID#31868)
LGB - Nicodemus your answer below as well.
First Silver Reserve -FSR - .66 to 1.99 52 week price

Clifton Mining - CFB - .50 to 1.79 52 week price

Sunshine - SSC - 5/8 to 1 11/16 52 week price

I still say when silver heats up CFB and FSR will run rings around and away from SSC

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:50 - ID#348286)
rube: Platinum is @ 24 times rarer than Gold and very few mines around.
The CB's have virtually no stock, only the US governmant has a small supply reserved for military emergencies.....
It is very cheap relative to Gold.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 14:57 - ID#20137)
Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 14:07
Allen ( USA ) ( SDRer ) ID#246224:

Its seems to me that China is trying to evolve its state into something other than a totalitarian
state. In so doing they have lost control of the outcome.

I agree that they have decided to move away from a totalitarian state. They learned their lesson with Mao. I was lucky enough to spend a large amount of time in and around mainland China in the late 70's and early 80's. I met a lot of major and up and coming players in the government and technology areas. They impressed me greatly with their knowledge of our country and the workings of the U.S. Most of them faired very poorly in the final years of Mao's reign, a lesson they did would never forget ( basically freedom is also important in their system ) .

Hardly anyone spoke English at that time except for key players ( obviously they had been spending time studying and visiting the U.S. - illegal at that time ) . They knew at that time that major changes would have to be made and they were more than willing to take decades to implement them. They were working on a plan and were making connections all over the world ( first with Chinese ex-praitiants ) to obtain the information, expertise,  to allow the evolution of the planning.

From those years, many outsiders projected that China would have problems with this and that, but China has guided themselves extremely well over the last 20 years. If you think about it carefully, their transformation has been spectacular.

You may be right, but I think their record over the last 20 years is impressive enough that we should keep our eyes on them - they may surprise us again.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:04 - ID#31868)
Nickodemus, an after thought click on digest, then click on GOLDBUG and there is a complete write-up on First Silver Reserve.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:13 - ID#286234)
Yes, keep lurking and posting too.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:14 - ID#316193)
Webcasts Of Total Eclipse Is Probable Reason The Web Is Slow

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:15 - ID#338289)
tolerant1: FSR
tolerant1: Just popping in for a moment. Too much durn work is keeping me from my bad habit of monitoring Kitco but it is giving me more money to pour into PM's. I'm getting into FSR fairly soon. I've never dealt with buying stocks on any of the Canadian exchanges. Can you suggest a dealer and/or online service I can use? TIA!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:15 - ID#316232)
Rally forming
Gold stocks have enough zeal for me to feel that this rally is real.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:36 - ID#246224)
I still think ..
the 'ejector' button idea's time has come!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 15:45 - ID#388404)
Tolerent1, Hello: Thank you for your prompt response and information. Will do diligence.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:03 - ID#31868)
I purchase through my very dear friend at Merrill Lynch and do not know if this is the way you want to go. He watches my account like an assassin on PCP, so I do not mind the extra costs.

However, contact me at and I will email some more suggestions, contacts and phone numbers through which I am sure you will find a comfort zone of who to pick and deal with.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:04 - ID#269409)
@ Tolerant...SSC
FSR will outperform a "dog" like SSC, when silver moves eh? Then how do we account for the fact that the day the "Buffet" news was publisized, SSC moved up 60+% IN ONE DAY!! FSR sure didn't respond that way.

You need to understand "mass" investor psychology. Gold Bugism or no, you need the masses on your side for really explosive moves. Investors and funds at large, are far more likely to buy the well known SSC, in a strongly up silver market.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:06 - ID#269409)
@ Tolerant....Final SSC tidbit
FSR close today....down .44%.
SSC close today.....up 5.0%

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:06 - ID#402260)
Chinese Water Torture
11 years ago this mutual fund was going for $6.25.Mandela talked about nationalizing the mines and the bottom fell out of the entire SA mining industry.It's the worst performing fund of its kind in the
annals of investment history and I've dollar cost averaged the hell out of it ever since.Sure I dumped out, took tax losses but for some inexplicable reason, like a junkie, I stepped in a bought shares because they were cheap relative to other funds.Today you can buy it for 50 centavos. I now feel that It'll only take 5 years to remove the anguish and pain that this investment vehicle has caused.

Sure I diversified in many other income producing opportunities but have held on to none other than.... US Gold Shares.Like waiting for aliens to pave I-75.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:09 - ID#57232)
Gold Team rally!
Strongman: I like your approach -- Can't lose on gold coins. One of my sceptic friends does understand the value of having gold coins, even if they are only for 'antique collector' value.

Hard to ignore a 1933 or so $20 gold coin once used as currency that is now easily worth $450. Sure beats paper money, too. And -- the more gold the average person has, the better prepared we will be to recover from a paper collapse. No harm done if the paper collapse never comes.

Our government tacitly supports this approach by minting $20 bullion St Gaudens gold pieces for the price of one ounce of gold.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:10 - ID#269409)
@ Saddam...checmical / biological weapons
Excellent and lengthy, very well researched article today in the "New York Times" re Saddams WMD's, how he aquired, how he has hidden them, how he has planned to use them.

Among other niceties, plans for the total annahialation of Israel's population using MIG's outfitted with Anthrax distribution bombs, and other lovely ideas.

Also, good facts and figures on how many hundreds of gallons of "stuff" has vanished without a trace, including delivery systems and components.

Should give the Saddam lovers, U.S. is an unfair meanie types, pause....

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:14 - ID#269409)
@ Hepcat / Bernard.........ANOTHER
I just received my latest Gold newsletter, a well known publication that I won't mention by name due to affiliation with Bart's new advertising policy.

ANOTHER's Kitco posts, have now been compiled into an entire paper, with commentary by an "analyst", and are being marketed for $29.95!!! The satirist making the "ANOTHER" posts, ought to demand royalties on this!

There are folks on this site, whom I respect, that have been completely taken in by the "ANOTHER" hoax. I do not count myself among them.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:19 - ID#269409)
@ JTF....correction
JTF you just said "Our government tacitly supports this approach by minting $20 bullion St Gaudens gold pieces for the price of one ounce of gold."

Don't mean to nitpick, but the Govt. is most certainly NOT minting $20 St. Gaudens coins and never will again. What they ARE minting is a One Ounce, $50 face denomination Gold coin, whose obverse ia an imitation of the "Saint" and whose reverse has a different design altogether. And these are not sold directly to the public at POG price, but through a network of mint customer bullion houses and banks at a coinage premium.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:21 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.86 this is not a new high.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:27 - ID#269409)
@ MoreGold, Rube...Platinum's rarity
And let's not forget the fact that all the Platinum ever mined, would fit inside a cube smaller than 25 Ft. square. Or the fact that it takes 20 times as much ore ( on average ) to get an ounce of Platinum as it does Gold. Or that Platinum supplies can be disrupted at any time, due to problem with Russkie mines and supply channels ( 25% of annual production ) , or that Platinum has been increasingly popular as bullion coinage, or that Platinum is a very important industrial matierial, used in the manufacturing or final of something like 30% of all products, etc etc.... seems underpriced to me. Go white's!

PS, I have a few dozen 1997 PLatinum American Eagles... beautiful coin in it's own right. Thanks for the recommendation RJ!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:28 - ID#324209)
Donald--S&P 500/gold ratio!

How about doing your DJIA/Gold ratio for other market indicies, too? After all, the Dow is only 30 stocks. I've taken a pass at doing the same for the S&P Composite and gold, and find the market even more overvalued than is indicated by the DJIA/Gold ratio. I only had average annual prices to go on, but here's what I found:

The S&P 500/Gold annual average ratio peaked twice before in this century: in 1929, at 1.26, and in 1967, at 2.63. It bottomed twice, as well, in 1942, at .246, and in 1980, at .194.

So, where did we close today? 3.56. This is 36% higher than the average ratio of 1967, and 183% higher than the average ratio of 1929 ( Yikes! ) .

( Remember, these are annual average ratios; I didn't have the data to do this daily, weekly or monthly. )

The end for equities is nigh.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:28 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .248 This ratio measures the ounces of gold required to purchase the XAU. Looking at a chart of this ratio today I noticed that the day before the October crash the ratio was .311. On October 27th it plunged to .275, recovering to .286 on the 28th. Although the Dow/Gold Ratio recovered sharply to its recent new high the XAU/Spot Ratio has never exceeded the .286 reading and has in fact fallen to a low of .227 at one time.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:30 - ID#269409)
@ ..flying my F16
Cold rush of air..... warning lights flashing.....ArrggHHHHH..HHHhhh.hhh.h.hh.h

( Now who hit the eject button? BFN )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:32 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 47.84

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:34 - ID#57232)
What's up? Why not discuss gold investing instead of me and ANOTHER?
bernatz du ventadorn ( hepcat ) : I am amused you consumed expensive Kitco bandwidth discussing me and ANOTHER as being undesirable contributors. I find this surprising coming from you, because you are quite capable of contributing constructively to the gold conversation on this site, if you wish to. Why not do that, instead of denegrating others?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:41 - ID#26793)
There are several reasons for using the Dow. It has a longer history and data for the Dow 30 is available back to 1896, and to 1890 for the Dow 12 which preceeded it. ( I still don't have all that data myself ) . The Dow is more widely reported and followed by the general public and their emotional reaction to tops and bottoms is important. The S&P is more followed by the professionals and if it is true that they are the more savvy players it could be misleading. I am a bit surprised that you found it to be more overvalued than 1929. I did not know that. All the indices have been tampered with over the years and can never give us perfection. I don't have enough S&P data to do the work but would sure follow it if it were available.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:43 - ID#57232)
Thanks for the clarification !
LGB: You know far more about gold coins than I do -- I just saw the US bullion coins for the first time yesterday, and they did look like the St. Gaudens - at first glance.

So -- they are actually billed as $50 gold pieces? Why not make them $300 if they are directly 'convertible' into dollars? You might conclude from this that even the US government acknowledges that the 'official' value of these coins is much less than their true value. Still says nearly the same thing as 'billing' them as $20 one ounce bullion coins.

Spud Master
(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:49 - ID#273112)
GO FOR IT UNCLE SAM!!! US Deficit for Feb. now $41 billion dollars! Yee ha!
02/25/1998 $5,524,032,303,574.34
02/02/1998 $5,483,592,532,096.82

That's a cool $41 billion dollars for February alone!

Now for my theory, which is mine, and belongs to me, ( ahem ) , my theory, which is, belongs to me, ( ahem ) , is as follows:

The FedGov is borrowing cash to secretly pour into the stock market: get it? The market HAS already collapsed! It's the Fed/FedGov that are now keeping it going.

I also have another theory. My theory the second, which is mine, ( ahem ) , and belongs to me, my theory that is, ( ahem ) , and my theory, which is as follows:

The staggering increase in the Federal Debt matches precisely US FedGov purchases of Japanese held US Treasury notes. Get it? The FedGov is borrowing money to buy back the Japanese dumped US bonds.

I have a third theory, which is ( bang! )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:50 - ID#31868)
And in this corner LGB and the Brain Salad Surgery Team
And in this corner tolerant1 and team Cuervo and the Hangovers ( my back up band )

LGB, for all the world to see, you have made your choices and I have made mine.

Let the silver sparks fly.

Gulp. a toast of Mexico's finast to ya.

Open the buffett...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:51 - ID#288295)
TYoung @ CEF
Central Fund of Canada is the only public closed-end bullion fund that I'm aware of. Years ago ( maybe 10 yrs ) , brokers like Merrill Lynch had some limited partnerships formed to buy numismatic coins, but I don't know if they still exist ( coins are down about 90% from the late-80's high, I believe ) , or if they do exist, whether you can buy into them.Anyway - I'm glad CEF fits your needs. As I stated in an earlier post, I'm a little more aggressive now, but if things work out - will roll profits over into CEF as bullion stockpiles disappear, or if my gold/silver shares start to underperform bullion. All this presupposes a new bull market, which isn't a slam-dunk.Tom ( also )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:54 - ID#324209)
Donald, Re: S&P 500 Data
I have the monthly averages of the S&P 500, going back through 1918, but not the corresponding gold prices. Are your prices weekly? ( Sorry, can't remember. )

Thanks, Fergie

(Thu Feb 26 1998 16:58 - ID#288295)
Royal Silver - ALL
Does anyone else here own shares of Royal Silver ( BB:RSMI ) besides me? I'm puzzled by its underperformance relative to silver, and would appreciate any input. They claim to have reserves of 50 MM ounces silver, and the total float is small ( 9-10 MM shares ) but the stock has been dead. Website is at

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:00 - ID#288295)
Royal Silve

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:03 - ID#333232)
Somebody still wants it...
Gold Demand at Record Level

SDR_er - Very good points on the 23rd - have been reading up on the past asian paper currency debacles. Supports your thesis in part.

Strongman - I've been doing just that ( coins as birthday gifts etc. )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:05 - ID#284255)
ANOTHER's thoughts for free - no charge from the sharefin.
Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 13:41
LGB ( @ Bart...the site rocks.... ) ID#269409:

I agree wholeheartedly.

I for one will be gone when this site changes.
I only ever view this site in full text mode.
And it takes hours every day to read all the posts.
I just couldn't do it in short text mode.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:10 - ID#324209)
S&P Gold ratio 130% higher than 1929 peak.
I have found the data for the peaks of the S&P 500 in 1929 and 1968. Today we closed at 3.56 ozs. of gold to buy the S&P 500. This is 130% higher than 1929's peak of 1.55, and 27% higher than 1968's peak of 2.80.

We are truly in rarified air.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:11 - ID#31868)
I do not know a thing about the company.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:11 - ID#368244)
Indonesia and Monetary Board
This fresh in from the Indo Stock Exchange. Thought it might be of interest.

JAKARTA ( AFX-ASIA ) - As Indonesia tackles crucial problems regarding its
economy, it is clear that President Suharto remains in sole charge of
policy-making, even on such key issues as a currency board, analysts said.
Comments by Finance Minister Mar'ie Muhammad before the People's
Representative Council ( DPR ) this week underlined the apparent impotence of
the nation's institutions, even on issues of national survival, they said.
Mar'ie and the DPR's finance commission held nearly three days of
question-and-answer sessions on the currency board proposal.
However, the only thing that became clear from the hearings was that both
the cabinet and the DPR, the country's parliament, are as much in the dark as
everyone else on what is potentially one of Indonesia's most important
monetary decisions in three decades, analysts said.
With the presidential election little more than a week away, and the
cabinet due to end its term on Saturday, President Suharto has yet to
announce a final decision on the currency board plan.
When pressed on the government's intentions, Mar'ie said the decision is
"entirely in Suharto's hands" and the monetary authorities' only role has
been to prepare the necessary regulatory framework.
"This issue should be decided by a presidential decision, not a
ministerial decision," Mar'ie said.
An economist at a leading local brokerage said he is not surprised that
the parliament so far has not shown a strong opposition to the plan.
"This is a normal practice here in the past 30 years under the New Order.
The parliment is just a rubber stamp," he said.
"I don't believe that under our constitution, it's only the president who
can make a decision on issues like this.
"The currency board will eventually change the central bank's role
therefore it needs a law to back it up," he said.
"It's understood that in an emergency situation, the president only needs
to implement an emergency regulation to subtitute existing laws -- but after
that he should consult the DPR."
The economist said the DPR effectively has veto power over presidential
policy initiatives.
"The DPR then can either approve the regulation as a law or reject it,"
he said, adding that parliament also has the right to use its initiative to
propose laws.
However, through either ignorance, lack of political will or other
factors, the DPR, whose members are largely appointed by Suharto, has rarely
exercised these powers during the past three decades.
"I think it's not only the president to blame but also the parliament.
The problem is they don't have expert staff like in other countries who
really understand issues like the currency board," the economist said.
He also said Suharto might have intentionally delayed any announcement on
the currency board as one way to fight speculators.
"I think the currency board system is one of Suharto's trump cards. He
understands well that by delaying the announcement, speculators won't dare to
make any big transactions because of the risk," he said.
Sassoon Securities Singapore analyst Vincent Ng said uncertainty over the
currency board plan proves that all major decisions are dependent on Suharto.
"I think the government is not helping us by not making any decision
quickly and by not being transparent. They just keep things close to their
heart," Ng said.
"All the facts show that the decision-making process is not dependent on
the system but on one man ... So, what should we think?" he said.
"If he needs DPR approval, then he can just call a few people ( members of
parliament ) to his office. Just like in the case of Habibie's nomination. The
president is like a god. Any decision does not depend on the DPR but on what
the president wants," he said.
"So do you think the DPR has power ... They don't have power."
Another analyst at a Singapore-based brokerage said Suharto may have
already made a final decision to push ahead with a currency board, but
delayed any implementation due to opposition from the IMF and the G7.
"He is just pretending that no decision has been made. Why should he do
that? People continue to guess and I think Suharto is trying to decieve or to
mislead the market. He pretends to be doing one thing while he is doing other
things," he added.
Sassoon's Ng said: "Under current circumstances, I think there is no
direction in the market. The rupiah will stay where it is and stocks won't
move significantly. People are not anticipating anything. They are just

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:18 - ID#324209)
Sharefin--Thanks for ANOTHER's posts!
I read these all the last time they were posted. As a newcomer, I heartily thank you for providing this!

Bart: I don't know exactly what changes you are proposing, but I can tell you one thing: I LOVE THIS SITE, AND THE TREMENDOUS INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON IT, GIVEN BY WONDERFUL PEOPLE!

Thanks to all, Fergie

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:18 - ID#26669)
Found an interesting book
In the FWIW department, the book is "The Warren Buffet Way" by Robert G. Hagstrom, Jr.", which I got in paperback for $6.99. After reading it I'm more comfortable with holding more silver physical and mining stocks than I would have been otherwise.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:19 - ID#288295)
tolerant1 @ RSMI
I bought 5000 shares of this one, a couple years ago when James DiGeorgia was pumping it to go to $12. I was wrong on the float - it's only 4MM !! Still looks good to me, but maybe I'm missing something - or maybe they need a new PR person......I have a suspicion ( only that at present ) that they may be involved in a major silver deal in Oz. Can't say more than that at present until I get a few more facts.

PH in LA
(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:22 - ID#225408)
ANOTHER and publication of his THOUGHTS: Question for LGB

Yesterday I too noticed that USA Gold is marketing a collection of ANOTHER's THOUGHTS together with commentary by a noted gold analyst. I recall that many weeks ago a discussion surfaced here about possible publication of THOUGHTS and it was reported by one of the more serious posters here that he had been contacted by parties seeking to establish communication with ANOTHER with the object of securing his permission. It was implied at that time that it had been found impossible to discover the identity of ANOTHER.

My question for you: Do you know for certain that authorization has not been given by ANOTHER for publication of his THOUGHTS? And/or that royalties are or are not being paid to him?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:22 - ID#242249)
Defense spending on rise.
Spud Master, there is more red ink to come:

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:25 - ID#288295)
Arden (or any others looking for silver properties)
Just got my annual report from TransGlobe Energy ( TGLEF ) and the Barstow silver property in California ( said to contain 30 MM oz ) which I told you about is still for sale. They wrote off the property at a cost of $1,724,310Phone ( 403 ) 264-9888Fax ( 403-9898

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:26 - ID#288295)

TGLEF fax is ( 403 ) 264-9898

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:28 - ID#39845)
There is only one loose cannon in the Middle East
Thursday 26 February, 1998 ( 9:50pm AEDT )

Israel is facing a new diplomatic crisis over its troubled
intelligence agency, Mossad.

Tim Lester reports that Swiss authorities have confirmed an
attempt by five Israeli agents to install telephone bugging
equipment in a Berne residence last week.

Swiss officials say the five agents were caught a week ago
-- three entering the basement of the home while two kept
watch. The Israeli's tried to install telephone bugging
equipment. The house according to one diplomatic source
in Berne is the consulate to the United Nations of Israel's
arch enemy Iran. One of the five agents remains under
arrest, Swiss authorities released the remaining four but
have since issued arrest warrants for them. When Mossad
chief Danny Yatom resigned two days ago it was thought he
had quit over last September's botched attempt to poison a
HAMAS official in Jordan. Unnamed Israeli government
sources say this latest embarrassment was the main reason
the leader of Israel's elite intelligence service had to go.

Return to the World News Menu

plus from the Asia Pacific Region in Indonesian, Chinese and Tok Pisin

 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Thu Feb 26 22:00:00 1998 ( AEDT )

AEDT = Australian Eastern Daylight Time which is 11 hours ahead of UTC ( Greenwich Mean Time )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:30 - ID#17796)
Agree that no Bull market is here but the time to buy is at or near the bottom. I believe this is now. Patience is a virtue-I think gold might be around for another year or ten. I hope I am also. Tom

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:31 - ID#57232)
The National Debt rise -- and zero deficit
Spud Master: appreciate your posts on the official National Debt. What worries me is that we no longer have an official debt ceiling, and our illustrious leaders could add that $1 trillion of world debt to our National debt without the public knowing. If that turns out to be what is happening, we Kitcoites will have a project on our hands, alerting everyone in sight. The inflationary consequences of this will be minimal for years, until that fateful day when interest rates rise to the point that interest on the debt causes a budget crisis.

Where is Phil Gramm when we need him?

Steve in TO__A
(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:31 - ID#209265)
Allen: China
Allen- I'm with you concerning China and its upcoming financial problems. For those who don't understand why China will either devalue or implode, here's why:

China's fantastic growth has been fueled by the same means that the ASEAN countries used. They created credit ( increased the money supply ) and pumped it into infrastructure and corporate capital projects.

This might have been a good thing, but there is weak rule of law in these countries. Instead of being allocated effectively these funds were distributed according to the whims of cronyism and corruption. The result has been the development of a huge overcapacity in industry, as uncreative, politically-connected businessmen set up set up factory after factory to do more of what they've always done; and bubbles in real estate as people with too much money chase after locations to set up their businesses.

The Chinese have done exactly the same thing, and they have large capacity overhangs just like the ASEAN countries. Remember that it was currency trading that precipitated the Asian crisis, and China has been maintaining the value of its currency fixed relative to the US$.

China has far more manufacturing capacity than its domestic economy can absorb. The only way that the debt incurred to build all this can be repaid is if China exports its goods. The problem is they have all their ASEAN neighbours with newly devalued currencies selling similar products to the OCED countries at much lower prices.

Loans were awarded just as foolishly in China as they were in Southeast Asia, and many Chinese companies are very poorly run by ex-party cronies. These companies are barely profitable, and if Chinese exports start to tank, as they surely will if the current US$ peg is maintained, Chinese banks will have a bad debt problem to rival that of Japan.

There is a catch, however. The downside of a devaluation will consist of large increases in the cost of servicing foreign debt and increases in the cost of imported goods. This will put a severe strain on the economy, but not so much as a huge series of defaults. China really is between a rock and a hard place. My bet is that they will go with devaluation in the end, in spite of all their blustering about the "peg."


(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:37 - ID#28594)
Allen--with the ejector button firmly in hand, probably....
Truly didnt mean to suggest that China would IGNORE financials but, rather like the Japanese auto makers who cut profit margins to the bone to build market share, China might elect the option of building high political currency-value ( You can TRUST our word. e.g. ) over economic growth of 6-8%. China is in the enviable position of having options. There of those nation/states that have precious few! {:- )

With regards to Chinas totalitarian state: as I discussed with Carl some weeks ago, my sense of it is that China has changed remarkable little in 5,000 years ( her political/social organization i.e. ) . And as far as the totalitarian part goes--after what weve learned on this board, maybe I should not cast word-stones! Totalitarian is as totalitarian does!

Whatever our differing views, we can perhaps agree that, as A. Goose points out, China is worth watching in the days ahead.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:41 - ID#238295)
JTF, Another, and Lease Rates
JTF:I think Bernatz is implying you ARE ANOTHER AND ANOTHER IS YOU. I have no idea if this is true, but shame on you if it is. We want noone of that kind of stuff here.

The chain of movement in the gold market now seems to be lease rates move first, then the stocks, and finally bullion. Makes sense.

BTW, Bart why does the KITCO lease rates page stop at February 20? This is vital information which should be updated in as timely a manner as possible.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:46 - ID#222231)
Tolerant1, LGB, Ray, Nicodemus-SSC-IT'S JUST A MATTER OF OPINION
Hey Guys, Let's hope FSR, CFB and SSC all shoot for the moon.

SSC, after many years of restructuring, lowering production costs, increasing production, ( with forsight to see coming boom in silver prices ) , is about to cash in. A pox on thier house if these things do not come to pass. IMHO, they have accomplished what they set out to do. The next quarter or two will tell.

Tolerant1, you must have had some bad experiences with SSC in the past, ergo your nasty remarks. Your probably not the only one and I do'nt blame you if this is the case. Sometimes, co's. see the error of thier ways in the past and set out to correct them. That is why I'm sticking with SSC this time. If you read my previous post, I made a gang of dough on SSC, even when it was a DOG. This time I'm holding on ( and adding ) in lieu of trading in SSC.

As LGB said, SSC is more widely known and traded than either FSR or CFB. Look at the volume in all three today ( besides the prices ) . Need I say more!

MEANWHILE, GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF US, may the SUN SHINE on silver!!!!!!
P.S. I still like you intolerant one!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:47 - ID#288295)
Old Gold

I happen to know that JTF is not ANOTHER. Heavy Hitter is ANOTHER.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 17:49 - ID#26669)
LGB, glad to see you're back in SSC again
if I read your post right. I noticed today''s volume is up to nearly 1.5 million shares, an interesting development.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:00 - ID#28594)
For those of us following the Gold Dinar Thread--
FT, Monday Feb 21, 1998

Turkish party being disbanded
Turkish authorities have begun disbanding the pro-Islamist Welfare party, after the countrys constitutional court published in the official gazette the text of its ruling last month that closed down Turkeys biggest party for agitating against the secular order.
Necmettin Erbakan, 71, the partys leader, and four other Welfare members now lose their seats in parliament and begin a five-year ban on political office. The treasury will take over the partys assets. Welfares 147 MPs, who for the largest bloc in parliament, will sit as independents. Mr. Erbakan and other party officials may now face further charges for sedition and contempt of court.
Mr. Erbakan has said Welfare will appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, although the constitutional courts president said last year that Turkey would not recognize its ruling on this case.

If youre having trouble placing the player: Dr. Erbakan is he who pledged the will and commitment of the Muslims of Turkey to the establishment of the Islamic Dinar as the currency of an Economic Union of Muslim Countries.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:02 - ID#368244)
LGB , those Saints were beautiful and are steadily going up in price.

Bought some MS65 today, dealer said they were going up in price and becoming harder to find. I believe they may be the best buy in gold at this time.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:07 - ID#287338)
The time is now!
Those who invest in gold and precious metals are loyal, honorable and honest. Unfortunately being loyal to an investment is the last thing you should be. This is why so many of us get burned. Take for example the silver market. WB announces big buy, silver skyrockets, speculators in for a quick buck take profits, silver falls. Is it any wonder that the specs. would sell. Their not true precious metals investors. WB didn't sell. That not his style. He saw something very rational about silver and bought. He is where he is because of a "buy and hold" attitude.

There is nothing wrong with a quick profit now and then. I'm sure we have all done it, but not in precious metals. Gold and PM's are for the long term and unfortunately that is what the masses of investors out there hate these days. They want results now! I can understand this. It feels good to get your mutual fund statement each month and find out how much more your worth. But what happens when the turn around comes. What happens when everyone realizes that those home equity and credit card loans that they took out to invest in stocks can no longer be paid by their stock investments. That their job is no longer secure because of the downturn and that $800 in the saving account just ain't gonna cut it. Things could get very ugly.

This is where we come in. The loyal, honorable and honest precious metal investors. The only ones with any wealth. Will we say, "I told ya so". I think not! After our $1000/oz party we will all go back to our homes, our communities and help our friends and neighbors less fortunate than us on the road to economic recovery. We will employ them to clean our homes, wash our cars and mow the lawn. We will do our part without saying "I told ya so", because we are honorable men and women.

But there is so much we can do now! Investors must be made aware that everything in life has a cycle. As in Eltons song, "The Circle of Life", everything cycles. The earth , the power that comes into your home, and even women cycle, everything has some kind of cycle. So why do so many stock market investors feel that the only way to go is up. This is all some of them have ever known. "Bear market!" "What's that?" "I can go to a market a buy a bear?"

Well maybe its not that bad. But it is up to us to show them history and the financial cycle. Find an investment club and attend as a guest speaker. Make them aware of precious metal investments as insurance. Show them your shiniest coin. Tell them your opinions about the worlds financial future. Get their interest and make them aware of what the worst could be. Show them how easy it is to buy and sell a coin and the big, big tax advantage ( no tax ) when you sell a pre 1933 coin, here in the USA anyway.

If you like mining shares, speak up! Write to the mining company and tell them to stop being wimps and selling their gold for a quick profit. Attend a share holders meeting if you can. Tell them its time to form an alliance such as OPEC and gain control of the market. Its up to us as honorable precious metal investors to do our part in helping our loved ones, our friends and our neighbors soften the their financial blows ahead.

If these are already your ways, then more power to you!

Its also up to us to take our own advice, look at the other side of the coin, and invest in good solid companies as insurance just in case the stock market does go to the moon!

We are already prepared when the cry comes out.


(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:09 - ID#269409)
Pete/223....SSC.....OldGold/PH, ANOTHER
Good post on SSC Pete, yes volume has been running strong on SSC, a must for liquidity and explosive upside moves. 223, I have stopped being fickle re SSC and become a cheerleader. What swayed me was the action on the day of Bufeet's announcement. I don't hold any today, but intend to make another "buy" soon. Would have today if my $1.25 buy order had been filled, but alas....a strong "up" day. Maybe I'll place a market order...

OldGold...Don't mean to speak for Hepcat, but I don't think he's implying that JTF is "ANOTHER". The implication I believe, is that JTF"s fawning revereance for "ANOTHER's" posts, make him a stooge for the hoax.

ANOTHER is obviously an intelligent being, possibly even someone with inside market knowledge re Oil / Gold / middle East, etc. BUT, a careful study of the liguistic characteristics, structure, substance, and languge of his "mysterious" posts, make it extremely difficult to believe that he is anything other than a brilliant Hoaxmeister with a crafty sense of humor.

Anyone around here ever heard of urban legends? The "Join the Crew" virus? et al?

PH in LA. It's possible that "ANOTHER" is receiving royalties, but I highly doubt it. After all, his Kitco posts are not copyrighted, nor are they defined as such by the ( nameless ) company selling the compilation in the latest newsletter. Could even be someone on said Newsletter's staff, behind the whole hoax! ( Great way to boost interest and circulation....and maybe even Gold action...the "mystery" wisdom of guru's from beyond our shores... )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:13 - ID#393224)
To all Kitcoites.
We are like a big family here at Kitco. We have our squabbles, our good times, and when the price of certain rare metals are down we comfort each other and share our misery. We have black sheep in the family whom we try to bring into the fold before they get a 'bye bye' from the boss. We get to know each other and often exchange email addresses and send personal messages. Information of a personal nature transmitted in an email message is NEVER, EVER to be displayed in public without permission from the other party. NEVER!! EVER!! Now that I've got that off my's trading time, and judging by your valiant efforts up North--it's gonna be a good day!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:16 - ID#333232)
Just for fun
Apologies in advance Bart:

Does any body have the probability or statistics for a
total solar eclipse occurring between two consecutive
Friday the 13th's ( was/is Feb. 13/Mar 13 1998 a Full Moon? ) . Scarrrry!

I know LGB, no proven correlation to group behaviour - but maybe we could promote Gold good luck charms ( Golden Placebos ) ?

Sorry all - long day, no laughs.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:17 - ID#57232)
Yet another ANOTHER?
Old Gold: Bernatz du ventadorn ( hepcat ) did once say that he thought I was ANOTHER months ago -- unfortunately I'm not. I wish I were, because then I could tell you all I could about what ANOTHER and his spokesmen know.

SilverBaron: I don't think Heavy Hitter is ANOTHER, because whoever ANOTHER is does not rattle easily. And whoever ANOTHER is, he is not American.

I hope that hepcat turns over a new leaf, and starts contributing in 'another' way to this site, specifically about gold investing. I know he can.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:18 - ID#269409)
@ Strongman
"Those who invest in Gold are Honest, wise, loyal, generous, brilliant, morally superior in every way....etc etc..."

Please.....let's not be self serving. There are equal distributions of selfish, arrogant, disloyal, suspicious, paranoid, et al personality types in the Gold/PM camp and in the paper camp.

In fact, reading this forum, one might well conclude that GoldBugs as a whole, have moved beyond social engagaement and responsibility, and instead become a band of isolationist, paranoid, conspiracy theory, self centered, me first and to hell with society Gloom and Doomers. Hardly the stuff of moral superiority.

Yes I know, the paper world is full of sheep, and foxes to fleece them, and bubble debt, and phony mythical money and et ctetc etc...but really...let's sit back, do a little reality check, and admit that "Me and my family first" is not necessarily synonamous with all the adjectives so freely and generously bestowed on Goldbugs, by GoldBugs.

( And this, from a recent convert... )

Lurker 777
(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:23 - ID#317247)
ANOTHER would you be willing to give Bart the rights to your postings at KITCO to help defer the operating costs.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:24 - ID#269409)
@ CMH...Golden eclispes
I'm still trying to figure out how to invest in that Homeopathic Gold remedy! Maybe we could duplicate Homeopathic medicine's current popularity, ny marketing "Homeopathic" Gold bars made out of Wood! Spray paintthem with Gold color paint that conatins a "trace" of gold in the 5 parts per million range, come up with a slick brochure as to why this will make folks feel secure at night, get hundreds of testimonials on how holders of such bars are now feeling "rich", and have indeed become rich since purcahse, and make our fortune!

Steve in TO__A
(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:26 - ID#209265)
Gold lease rates
Au short-term lease rates went up over 2% today. Anybody know why?


(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:34 - ID#57232)
So -- I 'fawn' all over ANOTHER?
LGB: You probably thought I wouldn't notice, did you? I did read your post. And -- I gave you a complement today! If you review my conversations with ANOTHER, you will notice that I have confronted ANOTHER several times on his 'fuzzy' or 'faulty' logic.

My reasoning is this: ANOTHER may be one of us, he may be a Novelist testing his prose on us, he may be Oriental, he may be Middle Eastern. But -- it does not matter because he makes us think and question. I will say again what I have said at least ten times. I do not consider ANOTHER's contribution seriously until I have cross-correlated it with that of other sources. He does know about gold -- contango for example goes right over my head. So -- if you do not wish to ask ANOTHER questions to draw him out and learn, that is your prerogative. Old Gold does not mind doing it, and he is one of our most experienced gold investors on Kitco.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:38 - ID#269409)
Ahh but I ALSO said that there are folks I respect on this forum who are into the "ANOTHER" dude...You fall into this category...though we disagree on such things as metaphysics when it comes to investment strategies

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:39 - ID#225273)
Steve & Lease Rates
One report I read said a usual lender withdrew its metal today for some unnamed reason and that this, coming as it did after similar events in silver, platinum, and palladium, spooked the market. ( All in a day's work at the LBMA. )

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:41 - ID#269409)
However, I'm going to clam up on the whole subject now, because I think all this press and conjecture is EXACTLY why ANOTHER posts here, and I don't want to be one of those adding to his side splitting merriment at our expense!

( Go to it ANOTHER.... Gold, Oil, Wheelin & Dealin, keep on laughin! )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:44 - ID#393224)
Aussie gold
Aussie gold shares up less than 1% this a.m., but on HEAVY volume on the majors. The 'big boys' are getting back in!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:46 - ID#23782)

This is where we come in. The loyal, honorable and honest precious metal investors. The only ones with any wealth. Will we say, "I told ya so". I think not!

I think I am. I'm gonna tell um so.

I'm gonna rent billboards, I'm gonna take out ads in newspapers, I'm gonna set up a website, I'm gonna put it in neon lights. I'm gonna write it in chalk all over the playground.

I told ya so! I told ya so! I told ya so!

Well, maybe not.
But I DID tell um so.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:47 - ID#269409)
Isuare..."Saints" rule....
Isure, your 18:02 is right on! I expect those M/S 65's to far outperform bullion Gold, when the "up" move begins....and even if Gold were to stay flat or fall, I think there's an excellent chance the "Saints" will start rising nicely. They are indeed getting togher and tougher to find, and demand is growing daily. best way to own most of your Gold in my opinion, as long as you have a good dealer, who will buy back with minimal spreads. A little "bullion" coin position is good too for liquidity, but in the long run, Saints will make their owners much bigger gains.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:48 - ID#7568)

One of the interesting features of the silver market these days is the quality of silver residing in the Comex warehouses. Virtually all the silver in Comex is not of deliverable grade against London contracts. London silver is of a higher quality than Comex. This has occured in part because Mr. Buffett's purchases caused any London deliverable silver in Comex to be removed and shipped overseas.

A second feature of the market is that there is a very long turnaround in the refining cycle ( approximately 5 weeks ) , again caused in part by WB. These two features together leave the market in a precarious state. If someone goes after spot London silver, the Comex inventories ( what's left of them ) are essentially useless since it will take more than a month to convert them into London deliverable silver.

Since the lease rates have collapsed as of late, we have taken the opportunity to put a spread between one month and three month London silver. Hopefully someone will see fit to step into the breach over the coming month.

One last note from the rumor mill. A large company with major silver purchasing needs was shopping around the market to try and get a hedging program in place ( they don't have one now ) . When given the cost of implementing such a program they balked and decided to 'roll the dice'. Rumor has it that employees of the company have recently opened up futures accounts and are buying silver call options. If things run true to form this company may be putting in the next top.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:48 - ID#57232)
The respect is mutual
LGB: I don't have a clue what metaphysics is -- but I do like reading your contributions. To me there is only physics, measurement, and the unknown. To me the unknown must be measured and analyzed before it is to be useful.

Thanks for responding so promptly. By the way, I think you are right about SSC. Earnings profit or loss with SSC is not the key matter with this stock. It will perform others simply because it is considered 'the pure silver play' by the precious metals investor. I bought some too about 1 week ago -- just after the first surge. Wish I could have afforded more.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:49 - ID#225273)
To all:

Did you know that in the February issue of Dennis Wheeler's Gold Stock Report there was an article about ANOTHER and his Jan. 10 post claiming that if gold tried to go under $280 the BIS would buy it in the open market?

The article, if I recall, was titled ANOTHER issue. It told about the Kitco sight and I bet that's when some of the bandwidth problem started.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:51 - ID#333232)
One more before the road
I was thinking more along the lines of promoting an actual bullion medallion. "Gold Luck Charms: your insurance against misfortune." ( or something to that effect. ) Might as well get as many new gold customers as possible while we're at it.
( after a 5 minute pause ) Hmmmm, come to think of it, maybe that's why I'm buying physical after all. ( funny how sarcasm can turn on you )
BBL cmh

(Thu Feb 26 1998 18:52 - ID#284255)
Higt tech solution for global bottoms.
You may need one of these this winter. ( :-}}}

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:04 - ID#348129)
LGB: Platinum and the other catalysts in that family have many unique properties that im sure will be used in future scientific breakthroughs.
Some industries must have platinum to function.
If Gold should be driven down again, then it may present an excellent point to pick up more platinum.
The Japanese are by far the biggest hoarders of this intrigueing PM.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:07 - ID#251134)
aussie shares
Nick-What is yr current opinion on Lihir,Sons of Gwalia and telstra re price in regard to purchase.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:07 - ID#284255)
Sorry Nick I forgot the Url

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:07 - ID#93232)
@Nick at C........
Re: your 18:13...point well made and duly noted. I failed to apply my brakes around the oliver "curve" and then...swerve and boom! Ted knows I'm truly sorry about my blunder.
Now to studio7 for a wonderful night of jazz recording....we're goin' blow those walls down! Yes indeedy.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:07 - ID#432157)
D.A.-Please keep your tidbits comning Can you name the Company

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:12 - ID#284255)
Asia: What Went Wrong.

Could it get worse? If there is a third act, it will involve the interaction of economics and politics: economic crisis will lead to political instability, instability will lead to capital flight that reinforces the economic crisis, and all heck will break loose.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:13 - ID#269409)
@ JTF....Metaphysics, investments, and us
Metaphysics is essentially a study of "philosophical" or spiritual interpretations of our reality. Often connected to Astrology, and other New Age types of philiosophical interpretation of life.

I don't personally hold with the view that Astrology for example, has any sway on human investment cycles and such. "Investor psychology" yes, "Full Moon's and planetary positions driving investor psychology"...No.

This may seem inconsistent..because I do have deeply held spiritual convictions. But then, I'm not an existentialist either, more of an absolutist. ( Look out, I see Voyeur Professor's radar warning system going off....incoming lecture looming! )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:18 - ID#24864)
Morning All,
Wow GOLD being talked about on local radio.
Just driving back from the post office and
PNN which broadcasts news and Australia's
Parliament was playing a BBC interview with
Robert Pringle from World Gold Council about
gold price and demand. He emphasised long
term use of gold as adornment and store of
wealth. Gave recent example of Indonesian
experience of Gold doubling in local currency
terms during crisis. Our friend JIN has also
given us this sort of recent example.
Interviewer asked him about recent
falling price and he made the point that it
was falling in DOLLAR terms in the face of
record demand, countered by speculative

I can't ever remember hearing a
positive spin on Gold on one of our local
radio stations. FWIW Happy Trading All.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:21 - ID#269245)
I have been following this forum for over a year. LGB and I share the same suspicion of ANOTHER. Is he/she true? To a large extent, I think, yes. It is hard to disagree with many of ANOTHER's posts. It is harder, however, to beleive in anyone who speaks as if they were the "Golden Oracle." Some say that time will tell who is right. I personally do not care who is right. I read this forum to try to understand the group mentality of wise/cautious investors who seem to wat to think about how current events affect our global economy. Those "ANOTHER followers" remind me of "Jobs/Milken/Grove/Clinton/Gates/Lott/Buffet followers." You are still a follower and a subject of your leader's whim.

Gold is money. It is the most ideal medium of exchange that our society has manifested to date. Obviously, there are other means of wealth/power: Land, Oil, Family, Loyalty, Confidence - the list goes on. In a desert, he who controls water has enormous wealth compared to he who controls Gold. The answer, in my opinion, is to control the most scarce resource - whatever it is. Right now, that is not Gold - not to say that Gold is not scarce! Why don't we talk about rhodium or OPEC? Insted we always go back to the POG - common currency thinking. To talk about the POG is to talk about currency. In the USA the POG has fallen while in Asia it has risen. That tells me more about how Asian currencies compare to the Dollar than it tells me about Gold!

Everyone here is already aware of what I am saying. ANOTHER's posts deserve good analysis. But worship? Come on - I think he is begging us to think for ourselves. He probably even learns things from us! Is he true or is he motivated by powers that want gold demand to rise? Either way, good for me! Who knows, but don't buy into it - think about it!

- c

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:22 - ID#225273)
Market Comments
To all:

To all:

Here are some market comments for this evening:

It looks to me like gold and gold stocks have turned right on cue in relation to time and price. The daily chart of the XAU has a down gap from Monday. That was filled today -- very bullish. First, the price ran to the top of the gap and got knocked back, then it mounted a second charge and easily filled it and rose even further. This is very bullish action.

Gold looks like it has also turned. It will need a big day tomorrow to finish positive for the week, but if that happens, then it will be another very bullish reading. The possibility of an explosive rally is very real. If a head-and-shoulders bottom has just formed on the daily chart, then the immediate target for gold becomes $340 -- quite nice.

Tomorrow is the last day of the month. Usually, this day is rather slow and awkward. We may not see much action tomorrow. But I would not interpret this as lack of follow-through if it happens. Wait 'till next week, baby. Then you'll see ACTION.

Notice also, if you can, the daily chart of Western Deeps. It has a huge down gap on Monday. But with the turnaround, that gap is nearly filled. If WDEPY can close it and end positively for the week, this too will be very, very bullish.

And let it not be lost that ASA was one of the best performers in the XAU today.

In silver, the price didn't make it down to the 200-day MA, but enjoyed a nice turn today. The main reason I think it has bottomed is the action in the silver shares.

The daily chart of Coeur d'Alene is a thing of beauty. The upside gap between 9.25 and 10.00 didn't even get challenged.. The price of this stock moved sharply higher today. ( The larger the unfilled gap, the greater the move in the other direction. )

The gap in the charts of both Hecla and Sunshine saw the price move into it, but unable to close it. Now both have moved to the upside. These too are unfilled gaps. And although they don't have the power behind them the CDE chart has, they should move strongly higher now.

Copper saw some follow-through today from yesterday's turnaround. I wouldn't want to be short the copper market any longer.

The dollar was down again. The 30-year bond yields were up. And the Dow 30 was up.

I'm not much for mixing technicals with fundamentals. But could this be telling us that inflation is heating up and the metals will move higher, the bond yields will move higher, the dollar lower, and the stocks higher as they will be measured in cheaper dollars? I wish I knew.

Tomorrow might not be like today being the last day of the month. But next week and next month should be fantastic.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:24 - ID#26793)
The charts I send out use monthly data from 1903 to July, 1997. I also send a supplemental chart which has daily data from July 28, 1997 through to the last trading day before mailing.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:31 - ID#31868)
Pete, good grief, no offense taken
Life is but a dream my friend. I simply say that most of the time it is the smallest pony in the Circus that makes the most money.

Gulp, a shot of Cuervo's finast at ya. Cuervo Gold, real gold, you can trade it or drink it, try that with a Mapleleaf!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:34 - ID#284255)
Something diferent

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:37 - ID#255151)
Nick Of Canberra

G'day!--Searched all over Indianapolis for Cooper Red, but alas, poor Auric, there was none to be had. I "can bear it", though. I did get ANOTHER GOLD Maple Leaf, however, so there may be hope!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:40 - ID#288295)

Since we know already that Kodak is hedged, I'll bet it is ( don't laugh ) QVC Network - the TV shopping channel..they claim to be the biggest gold/silver jewelry merchant IN THE WORLD...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:42 - ID#269245)
Would you agree that the reason why the POG rose today is because the Dollar went down?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:44 - ID#269409)
GOLD ...on the radio
Speaking of Gold on the airwaves. A new phenomenon I've noticed recently, being stuck with long commute radio programs.

There have been a number of telemarketing type Gold investment pitches, being heavily promoted lately, at levels that I have not heard since at least 1980.

I'm not sure I like this, since a lot of the pitches are constructed in ways that might alienate the audience in the long run ( You know, "could depression and total collapse be right around the corner? Call our 800 number and learn how our grossly overpriced golden eagles can be put in your IRA..... )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:46 - ID#393224)
G'day 500
Coopers is a lovely drop, mate. About 6% alcohol, so it kind of sneaks up on you. Keep looking, as it is worth it.

Some discussion of copper here today. Aussie BHP--world's 2nd biggest copper miner is scaling down production from, if memory serves me right, 70 000 tonnes to 15 000 tonnes at one of it's American mines. Now that the shirt is hitting the fan amongst copper miners there will be less copper ( and silver ) so maybe we are scraping bottom or very near it on copper. Might be a good time to buy copper shares.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:46 - ID#288295)

So If I'm going to buy more DROOY, then tomorrow's a good day, right? ( I've been waiting for the re-entry point )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:47 - ID#197308)
Auric,better yet,
get a homebrew kit ( lots of suppliers on the net ) you can't
beat well made homebrew,and the ales are very easy,5
gallons at a time,go gold!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:52 - ID#284255)
The spike in lease rates in gold
COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures ended mostly higher Thursday on moderate volumes, helped by some fund shortcovering in both gold and silver, traders said. "The spike in lease rates in gold spooked some shorts out of the market and appeared to be caused by one central bank deciding not to rollover over a position of about a million ounces," said Scott Mehlman, chief bullion dealer at Credit Lyonnais Rouse in NewYork. "Gold is flirting with its 50-day average and I still think it's going back down," Mehlman said. Spot gold has been trading above its 50-day average for the past month, but has been close to sliding back below it this week. Meanwhile in India, the world's largest silver consuming country, the local currency premium continued to edge back up to around eight percent over the world price for silver, suggesting India was again importing the metal, after demand slow as prices rose to nine year highs earlier this month, analysts said. "While some silver came back from Dubai earlier this month as Indian demand slowed in response to higher prices, we don't think any silver actually came back out of India and in fact we have just confirmed today that Indian silver imports are rising again," said Ted Kempf, an analyst with consultants CPM Group in New York. Meanwhile, copper futures jumped a second day on the New York Mercantile Exchange amid expectations more mining companies will announce production cuts to reduce a supply glut caused by the economic crisis in Southeast Asia.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:55 - ID#227238)
JTF: You concern yourself unduly with the rant and rave eminating from Hep.nut. The Demented One. His only continuing theme is the deleterious effect of multiple handles, while blithely ignoring the fact that no one, in the entire history of the net, has simultaneously juggled more handles than he has. ...... In the meantime, we should realize that "it takes all kinds to make the world 'n ain't none of 'em missin'"

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:57 - ID#254110)
Thanks AURATOR for the site ref. 14:17
I read the whole thing. Nice to see the important role Canada has played in the history of money  stopping those Indians from potlatching and generally carrying on!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:57 - ID#288295)
Nick @ C

Copper mining shares? How 'bout OOKeip Copper ( OKP/NYSE ) - looks like time to set the 'hook' in this one.....

(Thu Feb 26 1998 19:58 - ID#31868)
Gobble up DROOY at anything under 2 1/2 - an excellent purchase in my book. One caveat, once you buy it, forget about it. It can go up and down and make you ill.

Long term on higher gold prices and it will shine. Buy it, forget about it and drink alot.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:00 - ID#42371)
@ help form Kitcoers
My S & P puts are horribly in the red. Only the combined Karma of my fellow Kitcoers channelled into Demolishing the rampant manai can save me now!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:00 - ID#288295)

Got some already....buying MORE!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:00 - ID#28594)

It is a very strange world indeed where civility is called fawning

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:02 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
for the record once again. I AM A BEAR and have been. For this reason I have put every dime I have in safe places & the silver/gold market. I go ( went ) where nobdoy wanted to go and in truth, feel safe. It's hard to go against this rising market but soon I'll be on the right side watching
everyone else try and chase us down. It's my opinion -

did ya see the metals? i think gold is going to move out a little ahead of the rest ( on ewave grounds ) , but they all look kewl.

- I love the metals and follow as close as my talent will allow.
Did you see McNeil/Leherer ( sp ? ) night before last? They did in dept story on silver and Warrren B. They went back to 1896 to explain the events lately. In the end they said, don't go against Warren B. Dgoto said he saw the show...

With all respect to you - In July 1991 I quickly sold my condo in downtown Honolulu after watching it go up 100 13% in 2 years. I sold fast seeing the top of the market and told friends to do the same. They didn't and are now losing their butts bigtime. Even the real estate brokers said I was a fool - two of them have entered bankrupty court due to the failing market. I don't look for gloom and doom - however I don't follow the crowd cause most of the time they are lazy and are wrong. My point is I'm no gloom & doomer and this ain't the 70's. We ( in my opinion ) have stretched this rubberband almost to the linit and I really believe this to be true.

DON'T SELL till it hits 50 then wait for pullback and buy again for ride higher. It takes much patience to mess with these markets, but they will pay bigtime when they roll. I believe Warren B. sees something and he won't sell till there is enough of a market for him to slip it back to
them... that a long way from here IMHO

I actually hope to get more as I feel that the next market meltdown will send metals running as people fly to them as a sanctuary instead of currencies... opps I forgot they are currencies. It just so happens that I'm tapped out and don't want to overleverage myself and then get a margin
call. If I get my decline in March then I'll be able to afford some more.

don't overlook silver/gold etc. stocks some are real cheap and will draw much attention when the shooting starts.

I had to keep the fact that I was buying silver total secret last summer from friends and family... I'd have been laughed at for "wasting" my money. Now those who scorned the metals so much and ridiculed those who were buying are now in shock to learn that the greatest long term investor
of all time is LOADED with silver. I knew that I'd get a better entry point once that was released and today I decided that this was a level I could live with buying. It could go lower, but I said to myself "ok it's down well over a buck since WB announced his stake and who knows where the
bottom is... so just pull the trigger".

that wasn't a misprint - I and other see silver going that high and higher. It been a extreme bear market and when the base is big the rise is also big. I actually feel that folks are looking the other way and there is some serious buying going on in these stocks.

can you imagine what they said about old WB when they learned he had scooped up i/4 of the silver without them knowing it. You're in good company friend !

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:02 - ID#42371)
What's the URL for follwing S $ P futures when NY is closed. Thanks

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:04 - ID#227290)
clone & dollar/gold

I don't think it necessariy follows that because the dollar fell, gold rose.

I'm sure it's not like that everyday. We may now be a market in which generally, the POG rises and the dollar falls. But it's possible both could rise or fall in tandem under some conditions, in my view.

Do you have reason to believe that gold rose today because the dollar fell?

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:04 - ID#255151)

jman--A colleague at work is into home brewing. He swears it is the best beer he has ever had. I must give it a try sometime. Thanks, and I will keep Kitco posted on this. er, and Go GOLD!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:05 - ID#227290)
Silverbaron & Drooy

Lurker 777
(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:06 - ID#317247)
Are you holding silver bullion or futures? I just went long silver today and was wandering what you thought of taking delivery of the silver bars ( 375 Lbs ) ? Would you recommend SSC for new money or wait for a DIP? Thanks and Gooooo Silver!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:07 - ID#227290)
Silverbaron & DROOY
Oops. Hit the wrong button.
Why would the Silverbaron be buying a gold stock?

But to answer your question, I think tomorrow will prove to be a good day to buy DROOY, barring the unforeseen.
The gap on its daily chart has not been filled, either, much like CDE. It could fall a little further, but support is just underneath the market.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:09 - ID#393224)
Aussie Aussie
G'day Aussie.
Lihir has been incredibly strong the last few weeks. Their 'correction' was much smaller than other gold shares.I waited..and waited...and...they never came back to my price--so I bought Centaur instead. CTR will double in the next year. Sons of Gwalia has sold forward about 8 years production. This limits the downside, but unfortunately also limits the upside. Telstra has zoomed. I think they are overpriced--but I thought that about a dollar ago as well!! Ask Sharefin about how the Aussie public was conned to buy something they already owned!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:13 - ID#26793)
The mother of Kenneth Starr speaks out

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:17 - ID#197308)
I don't have a complacated tec. reason but Jyen up 100+ points
means gold just got cheaper for them,and let us remember it
is the asians ( who know they ) who have need of a safe haven
and they are the ones who's banks are going interest rates
about 1/2 of a percent,hm makes sence to me besides every time
the yen goes up gold goes up for the last several months'
so I think the fires gonna start there and spread.
Have really enjoyed your post thanks for sharing your work.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:20 - ID#372344)
@ Heard on the Street.....US$...Gold...SA Miners....Wizzard of OZ...
DROOY closes Doornfontein section of Blovoors gold mine....
Some Joberg Residents may sue DROOY over lung problems....
40,000 SA miners laid off last year, lay offs to accelerate this year.....

As I suggested in my last post the US$ showed weakness today especially vs Yen.... US Bonds were also down again almost 1/2 point...
Long yields about 6%,....not good for the US markets....Money Market funds into the US markets fell by 21% in January....M2 money supply
up US$ Bill 7.5.....Gold reacted to the rise in the Yen vs US$, I feel
ther is more to come soon, US trade defecit will be a HUGE issue soon....
Canadian Gold index up nicely along with AXU etc.....US is now encouraging citizens to travel to IRAN, talk about shameless, US
now trying to back Iran against Iraq?.....The more this UN Iraq "deal" looks bad for the US, the more loud "military threats" to be heard......

PBS did a piece on the Wizzard of OZ, fascinating, OZ stands for
oz. of Gold, yellow brick road, ( paved with Gold ) etc, Silver plays a big part as well, the bottom line was that the Democrats wanted back to the Silver coin standard, and the "tight" money Republicans wanted only the Gold standard, Dorothy discovers that the Wizzard wasn't.....
It is truly eery to hear and feel about the previous
fight for a monetary standard, at a time when as PBS stated WB buys
a bunch of Silver......We are entering not solely a domestic, but an
international fight of Herculean proportions for a monetary standard....

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:20 - ID#288295)
Preacher @ gold stocks for Silverbaron?
Diversity, my man, diversity! ... PLUS it is absolutely the hottest gold stock ( except Bre-X ) I've seen since '93....I only own this gold stock and a little Cornucopia now ( rode this one down ) ...sold all the rest last year after I got absolutely killed in Pacific Amber ( a Bre-X neighbor )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:22 - ID#217338)
Long post but do not have URL
JOHANNESBURG, Feb 26 ( Reuters ) - South African gold executives, union leaders and government officials struggled on Thursday to find common ground to solve the country's gold crisis in the face of slumping bullion price s.

Embattled gold companies rejected union calls for a 12-month moratorium on massive retrenchments which cost 51,000 jobs in 1997 and threaten tens of thousands more this year.

Union demands for targeted state subsidies were gently pushed aside by a cash-strapped government. And there was a lukewarm reaction to state plans for a crisis committee that would shepherd the industry through the gold upheaval.

But they were united in attacking European central bankers for their ``damaging silence'' while speculators drove bullion prices to 18-1/2 year lows earlier this year.

As gold wallowed around $292 an ounce on Thursday, union leaders, government ministers and executives gathered for a two-day meeting in South Africa's gold capital, Johannesburg, to chart a course for their battered sector.

James Motlatsi, president of the 285,000-member National Union of Mineworkers, said the opening session produced some positive ideas, but there was much more work to be done.

``I have not heard constructive suggestions from business. I hope they revise their proposals tommorrow,'' Motlatsi told Reuters.

Tens of thousands of miners have been tossed out of work as the country's once-mighty gold firms slash costs and close unproductive mines to compete with leaner foreign rivals.

NUM, which estimated 50,000-100,000 jobs are threatened this year, kicked off the meeting with a call for a year-long moratorium to ease the restructuring pain.

Bobby Godsell, president of the industry's Chamber of Mines, said such a lengthy suspension would be unworkable.

``It just won't work. If you have a 12-month moratorium then a lot of companies will be out of business in weeks rather than months,'' Godsell, who is also chief executive of the world's biggest gold producer, Anglogold Ltd, told reporters.

He said retrenchments are a symptom of an ailing sector faced with 1982 gold prices, soaring costs and dwindling reserves in some of the world's deepest gold mines.

Nine days ago the companies called a temporary halt to new cutbacks as tension mounted ahead of the gold meeting.

Asked if the retrenchments would resume after the conference ended, Godsell said: ``If we see proposals that could make a dramatic difference to costs or productivity immediately...that will change the money in the till. If we don't, the process of downsizing is likely to continue.''

Godsell said the government's gold crisis committee was ``interesting,'' but he said much of its proposed work was already covered by existing laws.

The committee would review any retrenchment over 10 percent of a mine's workforce, but the government did not say whether the body would overrule corporate decisions.

The proposed crisis committee also falls short of the union's demand for a permanent mining commission that would oversee the industry.

However, delegates agreed that their common enemy was speculation that central banks were going to dump large quantities of their gold reserves on the market.

``Every piece of serious evidence indicates that this is not the case. Privately, central bankers indicate this is not the case. Yet, publicly they have remained largely silent. What can be done about this damaging silence?'' Godsell said.

Labour Minister Tito Mboweni echoed Godsell's comments and pledged that his government would intensify its lobbying effort with key central bankers.

Motlatsi said central bankers were allowing speculators to drive down the gold price and contribute to the tens of thousands of layoffs the industry faced in the long term.

South Africa's gold crisis comes within a year of its second all-race elections with high unemployment expected to be a major issue. Despite a declining membership, NUM remains a political force able to mobilise a large voting block.

The importance of the conference was underlined by at least four government ministers sitting in the audience.

``The government is here today because of the crisis, but they have no active interest in mining,'' NUM official Gwede Mantashe said of the government's resistance to targeted subsidies.

Discontent is already brewing in many mining communities where a miner's pay cheque often supports up to eight family members and many local businesses.

One miner who lost his job after 15 years in the mines summed up the feelings of his colleagues.

``I would like this summit to advise me on how I should keep on living and keep my children in school,'' he said in an emotional appeal to conference delegates.

Related News Categories: currency, international


(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:27 - ID#26793)
Three Japanese executives in triple suicide over debt woes

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:27 - ID#269245)
The only justification I have for my presumption is the whole Occum's Razor thing - it just seems like the simplest, most logical answer. One of these days, I'll be doing more solid analysis instead of general hunches - but first, I wish I could find someone who would recomend some good resources ( i.e. books ) on the subjects of macro-economics and market analysis. You seem to have some clues - what do you suggest?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:29 - ID#197308)
that was a really

interesting piece ( posted about it 2 times yesterday )

ou can get the entire piece at and then go to
Leher news hour ( at least you could yesterday. )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:30 - ID#288295)

Discontent -layoffs- closing mines - whattawegonnado about low gold prices - BLOOD IN THE GOLD MINING STREETS! ......

Buy Buy Buy Buy Buy

Mo in To
(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:31 - ID#347205)
re: help from Kitcoers

May the force be with you.

Mo in To

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:32 - ID#255151)

Yeah, I have been thinking about Japan too. My understanding is that the Japanese Government and the average Japanese saver is VERY underweighted in Gold. The Prime Minister said as much last July. Any thoughts on the Big Bang on April 1st? There have been many heralded events that were supposed to upset the applecart and get Gold going. Do you think this will be just another disappointment?

Mr. Mick
(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:33 - ID#345321)
plaintalker - what is meant by...........
"retrenchment" in your article?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:34 - ID#26793)
Unemployment soars in Brazil. (note the spin to this story

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:35 - ID#368244)
@ Preacher

Kind sir , what do you think a 25 cent increase in copper prices would do for BGO shares?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:37 - ID#393224)
Anvil Mining
Under no circumstances should you buy shares in this company. I mean, just because they have 1.6 million tonnes of 11.1% copper and 310 g/t silver is no reason to buy these shares. Ignore the fact that they will be one of the lowest cost copper/silver producers in the world and that the payback time for the development costs will be in the order of three months. Just because they are sitting on one of the richest deposits in the world and are largely unrecognized by the market is no reason to buy. You know the Congo ( formerly Zaire ) is extremely unstable and just because the new regime of Laurent Kabila has brought temporary stability to the country and has backed the mining companies is no reason to invest. Now this little Aussie wannabe company is only selling for 15 cents/share and capitalized at about $12 000 000-- so do not believe them when they say the mine will open in late 1998. Copper is at ten year lows and will probably be completely worthless soon-- so invest your money in clay pipe manufacturers. Silver, as you know, is only temporarily higher and will probably be below $4/ oz again soon. I mean, what's a lousy 15-20 oz Ag/t anyway??

You are a complete loser if you think you can go against the crowd by buying these shares. Under no circumstances should you look up this URL and do your own homework. Just because the chart shows a powerful upside gap that doesn't want to close is only a fluke.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:40 - ID#26793)
Venezuela likely to lower official oil price to $13.50 per bbl

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:43 - ID#26793)
Look at the ratio of non-performing loans to capital of these two banks!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:46 - ID#288295)
Nick @ C

Conventional wisdom says that a deflationary depression is a disaster for copper....You're not saying that conventional wisdom is wrong, are you ??

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:47 - ID#42371)
@ Nick@C + Thanks Mo in To
OK You've got our attention.
Where can we see the chart.
What your involvement, investor or...

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:51 - ID#26793)
CFTC says new wave of derivative losses should not be disclosed.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:52 - ID#217338)
retrenchment Mr Mick
Don't ask me ask reuters news.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:53 - ID#284255)
S&P quotes
Try these ones
Live quotes:

Live chart:
Go to all sessions and type in the code SPH8

Our latest cyclone - "May"

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:55 - ID#225273)
Silverbaron & Cornucopia

Glad you brought up Cornucopia. It was really doing well early today.
Then, Bob Bishop came out with his 10-stock "kill list" and CNPGF was on it. The shares sold off some.
I don't know for sure, but I imagine that will the sellers from BB's list out of the way in a day or two, CNPGF should resume its positive reaction to the drill results.

Others on the "kill list" that I remember are Francisco Gold, Winspear Resources, Oliver Gold, Visionary, and Yamana.

These too, could rebound.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:55 - ID#411259)
..... Du for De .....

Boy, is this going to be an unpopular post -

We all are very fond of, and truly miss the original Bernatz DE. Has anybody considered the possibility that Hep might be the original DE rather than a DU come lately?

This occurred to me some time ago for three specific reasons. First, the format of the posts is exactly the same; that narrow column, single spaced type. This is not an uncommon format but is definitely in the minority. Second, the humor is very similar. Third: It seems that Bernatz DE disappeared right about the time Hep was thrown off the site.

I could be way wrong on this, but attempts to duplicate Ventadorm, although a couple from John Disney we pretty good, have failed to grab the magic that made us appreciate and look forward to DE's posts. I know this idea will meet with scorn and disdain; Many find Hep the most despised poster here; he may be one of the most beloved. An interesting thought, and one that will probably not be confirmed or denied.

I probably think too much.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:57 - ID#372344)
@ jman...Wizard of Oz... a MUST read for all wanting to go "back to the Future"

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:57 - ID#342376)
get in on Cornucopia?Vertigo- I feel your pain
Any comments on Cornucopia, It went up 37% today, will it retrace or continue up? Vertigo, I must be getting talked about by now at my brokerage firm.Many a puts have been bought and many expirations have come to pass. So what are we going to do? Buy April S&P puts, of course!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:58 - ID#288295)
vertigo @ Oz charts

Anvil Mining AVL

(Thu Feb 26 1998 20:59 - ID#342376)
Thanks Preacher! I'll wait a day or two.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:01 - ID#225273)
jman & Asia

I read a very interesting perspective on Asia by Adrian Day last night: "The decline in Asian currencies and stock markets is pretty much at an end, even though the economic bear is just beginning. The economies of the region will weaken considerably in perhaps a deep and long-lasting recession, and no doubt many individual companies will be forced to the wall by high debt levels. So, it is definitely a time to be extremely selective, but it is a time to be buying, not selling."

His take is that the markets foreshadow the economy, so the markets collapsed first, while the economies were still fairly robust. Now that the economies are collapsing, the markets will improve -- which is why it's so hard for investors to make money in markets; they don't seem to make sense.

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:08 - ID#393224)
More on Anvil
You should also ignore the fact that analyst Warwick Grigor ( who discloses that he has a financial interest in Anvil ( AVL ) and is therefore completely biased ) wrote recently in the Australian Financial Review: "Anvil's latest drilling results at the five best holes is about 20 oz ( AG ) /tonne.Taking 15 oz/t as an average at the current silver price the ore could be worth $100 a tonne just on silver, plus 15/20 per cent copper credits. The project in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, has tended to be overlooked. But Anvil could produce copper after silver credits at 5 cents per pound -- a three-month payback. As they drill deeper, grades are getting better." AFR Feb. 8th, 1998

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:09 - ID#225273)
clone & economic education

I'm not really classically trained. There's a lot of trial and error.
James D. Davidson's "The Great Reckoning" is one of the best things I've ever read.
Robert Prechter's monthly section on Social Trends is another.
ANOTHER had some incredible things to say. How much of it is verifiable, I don't know. And, whatever his knowledge of recent events, his knowledge of the future is a speculation based on his worldview and personal philosophy, which we still don't know, although he gave a few hints.
Also, any basic primer on technical analysis that shows the chart pattern and the rationale behind them, is also good,

The Preacher

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:12 - ID#288295)

Seconds for The Great Reckoning

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:13 - ID#42371)
@ Crazy times- May puts- why bring our agony to a premature end!

Sharefin- Thanks for the URLs

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:13 - ID#269245)
Preacher - Thanks, that will get me started -c

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:14 - ID#147116)
Wow, new names, & some old
Hi ya D.A, Earl and all see the eternal short
might be changing Eh

PH in LA
(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:16 - ID#225408)

Just what is the copyright status of what we write and publish here at Kitco? I have never noticed any mention of that subject one way or the other from Bart and the management. It has been suggested that the various writers do have rights to what they write here as I already mentioned. You seem to disagree. Just what is the basis for your belief?

Moving on to your comments about ANOTHER, JTF and other "worshipers": Someone ( JTF? ) put it very well a few minutes ago by saying that we learn from ANOTHER but that we must look for alternative corraboration to everything he says. This goes without saying, especially when swimming in these internet waters. It is not just what is said, when evaluating communication, it is very much who is saying it. Hence the seeming obsession with the identity of ANOTHER. Every scrap of evidence that can be used to identify him is of interest.

You, personally ( and I do not wish that you take this in a personal way ) have the habit--which is in part probably magnified by your extraordinary facility with the written word--of assuming volumes about the writer of any post. For example, if someone totally unknown to you dares say something you disagree with about President Clinton and the famous allegations emmanating from K. Starr, you are happy to tar that person with epithets like "liberal" "weak-minded" etc. without addressing the matter at hand at all. Witness your religous convictions. Religions have used this technique for years.

It is not necessary to worship ANOTHER to be fascinated with the content of his posts. Much debate has centered around what they mean. I personally was struck by how they resembled Sharefin's 1:54 yesterday. Dennis Birch ( whoever he is ) seems to make virtually every point that ANOTHER has made consistently since he arrived here, and in very understandable syntax. Granted this, there is no need to ridicule those of us trying to peer into ANOTHER's meaning. If ANOTHER ( who for you must ipso facto be either a hoaxer or an object of worship ) came out with a message about God, the 10 commandments or the origin of life, few among us would take note. However, he obviously knows much about gold that I don't. Therefore, I am very glad to learn.

On the other hand, with your attitude, that would be very unlikely. Unless you already know more than he does about oil, international relations, and many other topics, ( and that has not yet been demonstrated here ) you will learn little from him. Too bad. You are the loser, not he.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:22 - ID#42371)
@ Nick@C
Thanks for the chart etc

two things. 84,000,000+ shares out there ( if cap 12MM at 15 cents ) that's a fair # for a junior. It takes a fair pull to haul that lot up.

Secondly buying low price Aussie stocks from N America has always bee prohibitively expensive when I've tried it. Maybe someone on the forum knows of a cheap way.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:24 - ID#411259)
..... ??? .....

DA -

Interesting take on silver. The problem is that London does not report inventories. I'm with you though, the market is ripe to attack. Thanks for the info on the silver calls.


You can now put any form of "Bullion Grade" bars or coins in your IRA now. Prior to 1/1/98 you could only buy American Eagles. You can now put Maple Leafs and VPs and bullion in the IRA. You cannot put 90% silver in the IRA but you can now put silver bullion and platinum - bullion and coins into an IRA.

Glad you like the Platinum Eagle proofs. We bought 1000 of the PE's in all sizes and made them up into sets. A one ounce, half ounce, quarter ounce, and tenth ounce brilliant uncirculated 1997 platinum Eagles in the whole blue velvet box thingie. The US mint has no more of these and 1997 PE halves and quarters are already selling in the secondary market at a 40% premium. We sell it for $1049 delivered, about $140 below what the US mint charged, but that is still about $300 over the intrinsic value of the metal at current spot, so this would be considered a collectable.

Will it pay off? I don't have a clue. The halves and quarters are very scarce, but the fulls and tenths were plentiful. The whole first year issue, uncirculated thing may create a demand, who knows? Every few years we wind up with a certain number of this kind of thing and I very rarely talk about 'em. The last thing we had like this was the Aussie set that had: two 1 kilo silver coins, one 2 ounce gold coin, and one 1 ounce platinum coin. The 2 oz gold and the 1 kilo silver coins proved so popular that the sets were all bought and broken up for sale in the secondary market. I own several of the silver Kookaburras, in fact I'm looking at one on my desk now, makes a cool paperweight.

As to whether this PE set is worth it, I don't have a clue. You know this kind of thing better than I. If there is a market for these, I may buy several myself, same price as the clients, sad to say. What do you think?

Mike Stewart
(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:25 - ID#270253)
The Great Reckoning
The problem with "The Great Reckoning" and investment strategy from Mssrs. Davidson and Rees-Mogg is that they are very logical, convincing with no sense of timing whatsoever. They have said the same thing for ever and ever. If you wait long enough, you are always right on market calls.

An old friend of mine has been a follower for about ten years, and while his friends have been getting rich on the Templeton Growth Fund and the like, he has been getting killed following the defensive ( doom and gloom ) approach. His wife is screaming at him as he waits for the end of the world. Davidson and Rees-Mogg only talk about those occasions where they got lucky and were right. They are usually wrong on specific market calls.

You have to be careful with the advice from anyone selling a market letter using hype or fear.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:25 - ID#271238)
STRONGMAN: Your 18:07 post
Maybe I've had a bad day, but, I've just read your post about the loyal, honorable and honest precious metals investors. Kinda sounded like maybe you believed what you were writing. It also sounded like you feel that PM investors are one or two steps ahead of the rest of the riff-raff. Let em wash your car? Let em mow your lawn? I sincerely hope you posted that piece of drivel with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek. The whole thing reaked of arrogance. Maybe that should be included in list of requirements for PM investing........Must be loyal, honorable, honest and arrogant. I'm sure your post was looked on by some of the chest beaters in this forum and much nodding was going on and agreement was the order of the day. Tell ya what you can do. When the economy takes a dive and everybody is crawling to you for support, load em into yor Hyundai and bring em to our farm. Maybe we'll sell you something to eat.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:28 - ID#288295)

There is at least one Oz Internet Brokerage, but I have done my trades through Smith Barney - didn't seem any higher than their usual high fees...$2000 minimum trade, excluding all fees.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:29 - ID#255190)
It certainly would be helpful ..

if people did not grossly exaggerate each others interests and opinions as a means of attacking them. But if you want a good row, then go for it.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:30 - ID#269245)
Mike Stewart
I'll read it anyway - do you have any other suggestions?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:34 - ID#288295)
Mike Stewart
Right on. Great book - perfect logic, and I'm sure they are right in the long run.....However, I subscribed to their Strategic Investment Newsletter for 3-4 years, and they lost money every single year. Fortunately for me it was their money - I never took any of their recommendations.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:36 - ID#42371)
Agree on rRes Mogg and friend. He used to be the Times of London editor and his supposed insight was much ballyhooed.

However a lot of people incl. me have sat on the sidelines due to the sayings of gloomsters- maybe our time is now a'comin.

( Gold now up a tad. S & P futures now down a tad )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:36 - ID#237149)
COMEX warehouse
Does anyone have the COMEX warehouse stock for silver for today?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:38 - ID#255190)
Any takers?
I just thought I'd let you all know that I'm starting up a newsletter with a basic fear and gloom format. We will do alot of hype and make up stats on our calls ( all successful of course ) . I garrantee you will be convinced that my ideas are the best regardless of whether they are or not. If we get enough people on board then it won't matter since people gravitate to like minded people and it will be a social thing as well. We can have a few get togethers, t-shirts mugs etc.

Any takers???

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:39 - ID#57232)
At Home: Must log off for chores
Preacher: I like your 19:22 summary. Dollar down, gold stocks up, gold up. Did you mention Yen up 1.3% today? Japanese selling dollars? Others selling dollars and buying gold? The US buying up dollars to lessen the blow?

Looks to me like our gold rally has begun, even if the DOW heads for 10,000. AG is probably too afraid to tighten the economic noose given what he knows about the $1 trillion SEAsian debt ricocheting around the world.

Earl: re hepcat -- You must forgive my periodic weakness -- I tend have an unfailing faith in human character -- just can't let hepcat's mind go to waste. You are probably right.

SDRer: I like the new, improved LGB. But -- I think he oversimplifies sometimes. I do think ANOTHER is the genuine article, and the reason we do not understand him is because he also does not have all the facts, and some of his facts are inaccurate, just as ours are. Gold ( the physical kind ) and Oil are what he knows -- not the equity markets or derivatives ( unless they are linked to gold ) . ANOTHER, like few on this site, ignores our petty feuds and attacks. That probably says more than anything else about his background being different from ours. He will not stoop to the depths of some of our posters. Civility.

LGB: Thanks for your comments on metaphysics. You and I share a distrust of what cannot be quantified. Also -- faith is part of my life, and it is part of yours. Just a different kind of faith. Just as our internal realities are different.

Donald: Appreciate your excellent bombshells as always. Looks like Venezuela is in trouble -- too much emphasis on oil income? And -- the debt equity ratio of those S Korean firms is beyond belief. What else have they propped up with their Chaebols? Shame on them for emulating Japan.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:41 - ID#288295)
Read Doug Casey's book 'Crisis Investing for the Rest of the 90's ( updated edition ) ...Casey is the ultimate contrarian investor, not tied to any particular economic scenario, and travels all over the world looking for contrarian opportunities. He has some very novel ideas on ways to structure a portfolio.

JOE Smith
(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:41 - ID#24869)
A quote on todays silver action
"While some silver came back from Dubai earlier this month as
Indian demand slowed in response to higher prices, we don't think
any silver actually came back out of India and in fact we have
just confirmed today that Indian silver imports are rising again,"
said Ted Kempf, an analyst with consultants CPM Group in New York.

Did not think Indians can stay out of Importing----the value of silver used compared to Gold is not so price sensitive-----the amount of labour os more important..----now that election fever is over--they go back to worand require Silver-----those wharehouse stocks "arnt goin up"..Warren Buffet I dont think got it wrong..

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:42 - ID#7568)

The deflationary depression does not seem to be in the cards. A little while back when bonds were under 5.75 I said something to the effect that the markets were making an extraordinary bet on the outcome of Asia and its impending effect on worldwide growth and consumption. As each week goes by the real-time data in both the US and Europe continues to be strong. This crisis began in July of 1997 and the full currency madness was reached early in January. Here we are at the end of February and not even the tinyest of zephers can be felt in the economic winds in the US.

If the US is going to feel some sting because of the Asian debacle there should be at least a small downward blip in money supply. Somewhere, somebody out there should be making a decision to forego that new expansion, or to deleverage just a bit because a business slowdown is on the horizen. Instead of weakening, money growth is getting stronger. This week saw another rise in M3 to the tune of around $11 billion, for a three week total of around $35 billion, or an annualized rate of better than 10%. If it is true that GDP slows a bit because of decreased exports and increased imports, then this continued rapid growth of money is more inflationary than ever. One measure of inflationary pressure is M3 growth - nominal GDP. If nominal GDP growth falls and M3 accelerates, more inflation will get built into the pipeline.

The Asian debacle may prove to be the curve ball that the Fed has swung at and missed. By not reining in the economy when they had a chance it may have gotten away from them on the upside. The fact that the inflation statistics are at all time lows will keep the political pressure excruciatingly high against any preemptive strike, thus putting them even farther behind the curve.

The end of the financial asset cycle will only occur when a rise in the price of credit topples something large. Each time that something small fails ( SE ASIA is small ) , the system is given a reprieve. The fix is always to lower the price of credit so that the part of the system that has broken can mend itself. In doing so the day of reckoning is postponed. Should a general price rise occur ( inflation ) , the price of credit will go up throughout the system. This will have the of effect of taking out something large.

Between now and then all sorts of assets will be lifted into the stratosphere. If it's in short supply and someone wants it, no price is unreachable. The trick remains to figure out which assets will be the ones.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:43 - ID#42371)
Sure as long as the get togethers are in a bunker in the Mohavi desert.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:44 - ID#34849)
Just found out today about this interesting event on March 12 and wanted to pass it along to others. You can join a 90 minute teleconference with many leading analysts to identify terrific undervalued companies. Check it out at

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:44 - ID#225273)
Isure & Bema

I'm sure it will help, although I think Bema is perceived as a gold stock. Bema should trade higher with a higher copper price, but a higher gold price should help it much more.

Think of who would own Bema now. Some instittutions, some value investors, and some who didn't sell when the chance was there to sell at a much higher price.

The exploration speculators are gone. And they are the ones who typically drive the price higher than high.
I think in the coming gold rally, Bema will trade like a highly leveraged senior producer. The exploration-explosiveness will be missing.
Still, though, $400 gold should restore it to its old price high above $10.
That's my perspective.

The Preacher

PS. -- I have to get off the computer for a while. There is a terrible electrical storm starting here in beautiful downtown Hapeville, GA

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:47 - ID#348286)
@Y2K --- GREENSPAN ON BOARD --- "You could end up with . . . a very large problem."
02/26/98- Updated 08:47 AM ET
Greenspan warns of year 2000 glitch

WASHINGTON - Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said Wednesday that the year 2000 computer bug is already hurting the economy and warned of bigger damage ahead.

"Inevitable difficulties are going to emerge," he said. "You could end up with . . . a very large problem."

He said the Fed was ready to lend banks tens of billions of dollars if the bug causes their computers to break down in the year 2000 and they can't make payments.

The year 2000 software bug, commonly referred to as the Y2K problem, arises from computer codes that can't comprehend dates beyond 1999.

Greenspan reckoned that several hundred billion dollars will be spent trying to fix the computer glitch before the turn of the century. Much of that could have been put to better use improving efficiency.

"Before we reach the year 2000 there is economic loss," the central bank chief told the Senate Banking Committee.

Even if most firms fix the bug, it will only take a small number to trigger big problems, he added.

David Wyss, chief economist of consultants Standard & Poor's DRI, says the computer bug could reduce economic growth by 0.3 percentage point in 1999 and 0.5 point in 2000. That's a loss of $65 billion. But it won't trigger a recession.

Greenspan also voiced worries about Europe, where technicians have been focused on retooling computers for the 1999 introduction of a new currency, and not on Y2K.

"The Y2K problem is a very serious threat to the U.S. economy," says Edward Yardeni, chief economist of Wall Street broker Deutsche Morgan Grenfell.

By Rich Miller, USA TODAY

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:47 - ID#26793)
Pan Am files for bankruptcy

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:50 - ID#34849)
Run On the Dollar??
An interesting OP-Ed peice appeared yesterday by economist Lester Throw of MIT. He speculates that when the EU is finally established it will likely offer the first challenge to the US dollar as the primary international currency. With any weakness in the dollar, we could experience something never seen before...a run on the dollar. What that would do to upset a number of apple carts!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:51 - ID#255151)
Go Kitco!

Preacher @ 21:01--Words of wisdom.
crazytimes--Cornucopia turned out to be just
that for anyone who took Mike Sheller's advice a few days ago. Allen--I'm game, sign me up, mate!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:52 - ID#288295)
You might be right ( for now ) - I've always thought either the derivatives nightmare or Y2K would be the final straw that collapsed the system - both of those events are still in our future. They say the big moves always take longer than you think, perhaps so.....In any case, my ( our ) bet on silver is not particularly tied to either scenario, deflation or inflation - win/win either way.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:55 - ID#26793)
Japanese MITI official calls for Postal Savings bailout of stock market!!!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:55 - ID#342282)
After a lot of brain salad research here lately based on 40+ years of fundamental work, it appears to me that there may be some spikes and temporary runups in the POG as the "big boys" move in. But a sustained bull will not develop until the same people who have put the Dow out of reach come in. What ignition will occur I don't know, but if everybody studies on this, there may be a spark we could find. If we are lucky, we may find it ahead of time. Otherwise we'll have to chase. Good luck

Quixotic 1
(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:56 - ID#48200)
RJ...The PROOF is in the pudding.
RJ your 21:24

When I spoke with you on the phone about the platinum eagle sets, you told me they were the regular BU coins, not the proof sets. If I had understood they were proof, I would have ordered several sets. That's a great price. As for the BU sets, Vollmers has them $900, and my local coin shop is at $950. The buy and sell spreads are still too high at this point, for me to jump in. I am sitting on a tube each of the 1/4oz & 1/2oz platinum eagles, and nobody is interested in buying them at these premiums, YET. I'll call you tomorrow about the PROOF sets.

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:57 - ID#57232)
I think you are right! Logging off.
D.A. I think your comment about the US missing the ball is right on target. Just at the point where the US Fed should be tighening the reins slightly, it can't because of fears of being swept into the deflationary black hole of SEAsia.

Normally we would not loosen things up this much until we were into a recessionary trend. But -- this time we loosened up much earlier. So -- inflation is around the corner, and our early warning system -- gold -- is picking it up.

This trend is probably aided by the unwinding of Japanese purchases of US treasuries, and by the unwinding of 'gold loans' to buy US treasuries. Many cycles seem to be coming together to weaken the dollar. The launching of the EURO is also nearly at an end -- the european community does not need a strong dollar much longer. And -- lastly -- the SEAsian panic buying of dollars during their crisis is probably nearly over.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 21:58 - ID#318118)
@ All who missed it!

COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures ended mostly higher

Wednesday except for silver, which saw a further day of heavy


"Those silver buyers which coat-tailed on Warren Buffett's

purchase are now being exited as the tightness in the market has

eased with silver lease rates back down to more normal levels,"

said Bill O'Neill commodities research director at Merrill Lynch.

"A significant rally in silver is probably not warranted from

here," he said.

Trading on COMEX was halted near the close by a phone fault which

forced a special reopening of COMEX metals markets to establish

settlement prices.

In industry news, demand in the major gold consuming markets

monitored by the World Gold Council ( WGC ) rose five percent to

753.5 tons in the fourth quarter 1997, resulting in a nine percent

rise in total world demand for the 1997 year to a record 2935.5


"A huge surge in Indian demand offset disinvestment in some East

Asian countries, while a recovery in investment demand and solid

jewelry demand growth were the highlights of the year," said

Richard Scott-Ram economic advisor to the WGC in New York at the

publication of the Council's fourth quarter 1997 survey of world

gold demand trends.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:02 - ID#288295)
Joe Smith @ India Silver

One thing the people who are predicting India will disgorge millions of ounces of silver at prices over $7.00 are missing, is the fact that until recently ( a couple years ago ) the ofiicial price of silver in India was 100% over the world spot price, and imports were controlled! So, many Indians bought silver at upwards of $10.00 for long periods of time. They ain't gonna sell below where they bought! Go Silver!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:02 - ID#348286)
@Y2K --- SHOCKING Statistics on where we stand + "U.S. already has 350,000 job vacancies"
"The survey rated countries according to five categories: Zero -- for no action on the problem taken; Level 1 -- for recognition of the problem and need for action; Level 2 -- completion of an inventory; Level 3 -- for development of a program for making repairs and starting the process; Level 4 -- for completion of work on "mission critical" systems; Level 5 -- for completion of work on all systems.

The results listed the U.S., Canada, Australia, Great Britain and Ireland at Level 2 to 3. Western Europe, Israel, South Africa, Japan and Brazil were ranked at Level 1 to 2. Central Africa Eastern Europe, Middle East, Russia, China and parts of South America were rated at Zero to Level 1. Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, portions of South America, and most of the former Soviet Union -- Zero."

Worlrld: Millennium 'Bomb' Threatens Global Economy

By Julie Moffett

Washington, 25 February 1998 ( RFE/RL ) -- A financial expert says the so-called "millennium bomb" -- the failure of certain computer software to distinguish between the 20th and 21st centuries -- will have as great an impact on the global economy, if not more, than the current economic crisis in Asia.

Lou Marcoccio, Research Director of the year 2000 problem at the Gartner Group, a Connecticut research firm widely regarded as the premier expert on the millennium bomb, told RFE/RL that the world should brace for serious economic problems ahead as a result of the software failure.

The problem, also referred to as Y2K for the year 2000, dates back to the 1960's and 1970's when technicians used questionable cost-cutting methods to create special microchips. In order to save space and money, the technicians programmed the chips to recognize years as two digits instead of four. For example, when the computer reads the digits 9 and 8, it determines the year is 1998.

So, unless the computers are reprogrammed, the year 2000 will register as 00 -- or 1900. Experts say this is certain to create a number of logical inconsistencies, causing the computers to either erase the data, malfunction, behave in erratic and unpredictable ways, or shut down altogether.

Since most major institutions such as banks, hospitals, schools, communication and transportation arrays, government agencies, businesses and the military are all connected to computers, a failure of any or all of these systems simultaneously could cause the world economy to grind to a halt.

The severity of the problem is finally gaining worldwide attention. The Business Week magazine published a cover story this week dedicated to the effect the millennium bomb may have on the U.S. economy.

As part of its research, the magazine commissioned a survey to assess the impact of the Y2K problem specifically on the U.S. economy. However, the survey also serves as a blueprint of what other industrialized nations around the world may also experience.

According to the survey, growth rate in the U.S. in 1999 is expected to be 0.3 percentage points lower as companies are forced to divert resources to fix the computer problem.

The survey also estimates the Y2K problem will cut a half of a percentage point off growth in the years 2000 and 2001. That would roughly equal the expected economic fallout of the current turmoil in East Asia.

But the survey indicates that growth will not be the only thing affected. Inflation is expected to rise and productivity fall. This will come about, says the survey, because companies will be busy diverting money, resources and manpower toward fixing the millennium problem instead of creating and marketing new products.

Finding the people to fix the problem will not be easy either. According to a study done by The Information Technology Association of America, the U.S. already has 350,000 job vacancies for computer scientists and programmers.

As a result, the U.S. Federal Reserve ( central bank ) will have to negotiate a delicate course as the millennium approaches. The Fed is expected to come under intense pressure in 1999 to increase interest rates as labor shortages for technology workers could cause wages to soar. But if the Federal Reserve raises interest rates, it could then force employers to hire fewer workers, possibly delaying a solution to the computer problem.

Last September, a U.S. House subcommittee on government management estimated the cost of fixing the millennium bomb for federal agencies will be $3.8 billion, with an additional $2 billion to fix state agencies.

However, the Gartner Group has issued an estimate of final costs far larger the official $3.8 billion mark. It says the cost could reach as high as $30 billion.

Moreover, another costly dimension to the problem, say experts, is that many companies are not taking into account the possibility of litigation resulting from software failure.

For example, companies that do not fix their code in time are opening themselves to lawsuits from partners and shareholders. Companies which share electronic data could sue each other if the problem results in lost revenue. Governments could face a wide range of lawsuits from citizens and, at the least, angry constituents.

Overall, Software Productivity Research -- a research firm located in the northeastern U.S. state of Massachusetts -- estimates the legal fees resulting from failures due to the millennium bomb could reach as much as $2 billion by the year 2005. Awards for damages could be as high as a trillion, it adds.

But perhaps the greatest unknown factor in determining the precise impact of the millennium bomb on the U.S. and global economy, says Marcoccio, is the readiness of the rest of the world to address the problem.

Marcoccio says Europeans and Asians lag behind the U.S. in trying to fix the problem. In a recent survey, Marcoccio's firm checked on how prepared 6,000 companies around the world are in addressing the millennium bomb, the results were dismal.

The survey rated countries according to five categories: Zero -- for no action on the problem taken; Level 1 -- for recognition of the problem and need for action; Level 2 -- completion of an inventory; Level 3 -- for development of a program for making repairs and starting the process; Level 4 -- for completion of work on "mission critical" systems; Level 5 -- for completion of work on all systems.

The results listed the U.S., Canada, Australia, Great Britain and Ireland at Level 2 to 3. Western Europe, Israel, South Africa, Japan and Brazil were ranked at Level 1 to 2. Central Africa Eastern Europe, Middle East, Russia, China and parts of South America were rated at Zero to Level 1. Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, portions of South America, and most of the former Soviet Union -- Zero.

To make matters worse, some experts say that European banks are more preoccupied with preparing for the euro than addressing the computer problem, whereas Asian financial institutions are too busy worrying about the current economic crisis to think about the year 2000.

That is a big mistake, says Edward Yardeni, chief economist at the investment bank Deutsche Morgan Grenfell, Inc. Last year, Yardeni predicted a 35 to 40 percent chance that the year 2000 software bug would cause "at least a mild global recession" in that year.

U.S. President Bill Clinton and Great Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair are so concerned about the effect of the millennium bomb that the issue will be on the formal agenda of the next G-8 summit in Britain in May.

Other U.S. officials are also speaking out on the issue.

On a visit to Germany last October, U.S. Senator Bob Bennett, ( R-Utah ) told a group of German businessmen that he was greatly concerned that Europeans were not taking the computer problem seriously enough.

Bennett said many leaders simply believe the problem will go away, or someone else will fix it for them.

Bennett said: "I was talking to one business leader in Bulgaria about [the millennium bomb], and he said it should be no problem. He told me they would just ask Bill Gates [the multi-billionaire owner of the American software firm Microsoft] to come over and fix it for them. I hope our partners in Europe realize how serious this problem facing us is."

Overall, Marcoccio says his organization has estimated that the cost of fixing the Y2K problem worldwide will cost $300 to $600 billion.

Says Marcoccio: "All of us in every country in the world are going to pay this bill ... all of us individually because goods will cost more, utilities, including power, lights and water, will increase in price, taxes will go up across the board because governments have to pay for this as well ... There is no one else to pay for this problem except all of us. And pay, we will."


(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:09 - ID#7568)

The silver bet will work much, much better in an inflationary environment. Just like in 1980 when it soared to unimaginable heights in relation to other assets, inflation was at play. The closest we have come to deflation and depression was after the S&L crisis. In 1992 ( 3? ) silver made its bottom at 3.65. If things blast off, don't hold for the complete round trip which will be inevitable.

On this happy note, I bid you good eve.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:10 - ID#411259)
..... Quixotic 1 .....

No - No - No

The PE sets are NOT PROOFS!!! They are brilliant uncirculated. You say you have seen these at $900??? Let me know.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:12 - ID#287338)
Maybe my words of precious metal investors being loyal, honorable, and honest men and women are a bit strong. I am only speaking from experience of those I know. For me to generalize the precious metal investor in that way is probably wrong. I stand corrected.

As for precious metal investors being one or two steps ahead of the others Isn't that what we are all hoping for! I'm not saying we are above the rest nor am I above anyone. My post has given you the wrong impression. I am just a very caring individual who feels very strongly about investing in gold.

Thanks for your constructive criticism. I was unaware that I was coming across that way.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:14 - ID#342376)
Re: Strategic Investment, thoughts, and Astrology.
I agree that their timing is not good, but what they say is sound. Would anyone have believed this Bull Market could last this long? Any person who follows the advice of one person or establishment is bound to be lead in the wrong direction somewhere. That includes "Another". If you can spot the strengths though and put them all together! Strategic is still excellent for the impact of a global economy and technology. As far as timing goes, that I leave to Astrology. BTW, Rebecca Nolan, of Finacial Astrology, has a peak in the DOW on March 13. Then, a fairly consistent slide through April 17. After that, believe it or not, it moves up through May 15. Although no charts for June yet, she alludes to big problems and the possibilty of no more upswings at all.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:16 - ID#261352)
@ Silverbaron on CEF...Thanks for your advice...I'll watch the criteria you
suggest.Go gold.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:17 - ID#222231)
Silverbaron-Great Info!
Thanks for making liars out of those scumbags from Meryll-Lynch.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:22 - ID#288295)

Yes. Inflation is better. But in a deflationary scenario we have two things working in favor of silver. First - demand as a monetary asset without someone else's libility will grow. Second - the source of supply ( 85% ) of silver as a by-product from copper, zinc etc will dry up, squeezing the supply of silver, which is already tight, as you know. The wild card is jewelry demand - who knows about that? One could make a case that cheap ( silver ) jewelry demand would increase, as expensive ( gold ) jewelry demand decreases. Or on the other hand, jewelry demand could collapse.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:27 - ID#288295)

What did Merrill Lynch say that I countered??

Lurker 777
(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:32 - ID#317247)
Just saw your Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 18:09 post and that answered my question about SSC.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:39 - ID#288295)

G'Nite All! Will post COMEX inventory about 06:00 in the morning.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:40 - ID#222231)
I do'nt know where the article is now, but they also stated or downplayed silver because India would be a thorn in the side of WB and all silver longs. When and if I locate it, I'll post the same to you.

Bill El Zebub
(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:41 - ID#261352)
@ Silverbaron @ DROOY...I looked at the chart...I don't understand...that
sliding price is hiding something from me.I think I'm hooked
on ALTA. Chart comment?

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:42 - ID#411149)
All- These are two must reads for serious gold investors

We jest might be on our way with this gold thing?!

Tally Ho

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:50 - ID#42371)
Adieu all
I'll be unable to access/post for a while.

It's been an interesting eight months that I've lurked and then posted. Interesting though not profitable. I wish all fellow Kitcoers the best.

LGB - you've brought balance. Ted- I was only joking. I've enjoyed all the posts. Thanks Bart.

May our agonies come to an end soon. Paper will burn eventually

(Thu Feb 26 1998 22:59 - ID#255151)

The internet is accessable from just about anywhere on the globe. That means you can lurk on Kitco from a battery-powered, hand-held receiver. Hope you stick around, the show is just getting started!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:02 - ID#373346)
Those links are giving me a URL not found.

Thought I'd let you know to try them again.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:02 - ID#237299)
@PA in LA about copyright
Depends on the country your in. This is still a fuzzy area in cyber-space.
but in general to be protected you must copyright your work to
protect yourself in accordance with the laws of the country it is
published in. In the U.S., the words "copyright" or the symbol c in a
circle, and the authors name are sufficient.

Typically in print, if you "publish" a work, without copyright
notice, you loose your rights. But it was ruled that "...public
performance or display of a work does not of itself constitute
publication.." but "the offering to distribute a group
of persons for the purposes of...public display, constitutes publi-
cation." This is basically "public distribution". Distribution
occurs when you sell, rent, lease, lend, or transfer the work or copies
to people *not restricted* from disclosing the work's content to others.

Since once published in cyberspace, it is next to impossible to control
what is done with your writing, a copyright notice is still *very*
hard to enforce. Unless, like ANOTHER, you find your work in print
for the gain of others. But he didn't copyright his work did he- so
in a U.S. court, claiming infringment would be tossed out.

Occasionally, I run across the odd posting that carries a copyright
notice, but I am amused that these notices are usually appended to the
most insipid writings that no one would ever want to read twice. Likewise
with the ubiquitous copyright notice at the bottom of the billon or so
web pages; with few exceptions, they were created with purchased artwork
and seldom seem worth anyone's time to copy.

You can put a copyright notice on the bottom of your postings, and this
will not *prevent* someone from copying and profiting from them, but it *may*,
in some contries, give you recourse to the law if they do.

( watch now- the fun begins; a few here who consider themselves quite highly
will, no doubt, soon add a notice to their postings )

silver plate
(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:02 - ID#288433)
ray :suggested files of 22:42
sorry to say they are not accessible.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:09 - ID#335190)
Derivatives Business @ Bring back to USofA - Potential for conflict
February 26, 1998
Regulatory turf battle begins over derivatives

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Federal regulators are looking at new ways to regulate financial derivatives firms, but that effort may turn into a turf battle in Washington.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the federal agency which regulates the nation's futures markets, said Thursday the Securities and Exchange Commission's latest derivative oversight proposals go too far.

The new regulation would be more flexible and is designed to lure these securities firms into bringing their derivatives business back to the United States.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:09 - ID#42365)
Obsidian: actually talking of copyrights, there are several graphic
programs that whn used with plugins allow an artist to embed a watermark into the image..

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:13 - ID#255151)
It's a LONG Story

tman--Enter Ray's links with the "en" removed from the "golden" in the URL that he posted. Trust me.

Lurker 777
(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:15 - ID#317247)
tman & silver plate
tman & silver plate

Take out the ( en ) in golden-eagle then try again. Should read gold not golden
Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 22:42
Ray ( read ) ID#411149:
All- These are two must reads for serious gold investors

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:16 - ID#20137)
Date: Thu Feb 26 1998 23:02
tman ( Ray ) ID#373346:

You have to remove the en from golden.

golden-eagle should be golden eagle. no en just a - between the d and e.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:19 - ID#255151)


(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:23 - ID#237299)
G-Nutz, I've heard tell of those, also an ommission in my
post. You must also have the *year* in the copyright notice.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:25 - ID#28594)
FT--Fri Feb 27, '98
South America: Brazilian deficit rises to 5.89% of GDP

Brazil recorded a higher-than-expected budget deficit of
5.89 per cent of gross domestic product in 1997, an indication that
the government's control of public spending deteriorated at the end of last year. Economists, who had predicted a year-end deficit of about 5 per cent, said the worsening fiscal situation was the result of increased spending by state and municipal governments rather than higher interest payments.

The figures are likely to rekindle concerns among investors about the
government's ability to reduce its stubbornly high budget deficit. Many
economists believe the looming deficit is the main cause of Brazil's vulnerability to financial market volatility.

Comment: JPMorgan, who invested VERY heavily in Brazil may also be faced with "vulnerability to financial market volatility"
3 different articles in Wed FT 'explaining' Morgan's "dilemma" [which of course is NOT identified as being Brazil {:- )

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:29 - ID#255151)

I think anyone who makes a post on Kitco and expects to have any copyright apply to it is daft.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:36 - ID#373346)
Thanks everyone.
My predicition last weekend was for weakness early this week and then strength at the end of this week due to fundamentals of Iraq. Well, at least I got the price fluctuation right.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:38 - ID#39845)
How many Mossad Agents does it take to bug a telephone?
A. Zero. Unfortunately you will have to find ANOTHER orginisation
to bug your enemies gold trades.

Q. What does Piss and Mossad have in common?

Lurker 777
(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:39 - ID#317247)
@golden-eagle @golden-eagle .golden-eagle golden eagle golden eagle

Gold Beagle: Naaa I don't even want to start that!

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:42 - ID#237299)
@Auric, (he,he)..I sure there are some who post here that think
their words deserve such a protection. You'd be surprised at the crap
I read occasionally that carries a copyright notice.

Good night all.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:45 - ID#28594)
The old looking backward to see the future ploy...

Does anyone remember that moment in history when US companies were buying up Europe? Much angst and anger against the Americans with all there dollars that were worth so much ( 1USD = 5 DM ) . And silly US business DIDNT DEVALUE their dollar so they could compete....they just BOUGHT UP THE COMPETITION on the cheap.

Well, there is an interesting article in Wed FT...guess who is shopping SE Asia? The Chinese!

First, they spent some years buying gold...very, VERY quietly...
Then we learn that they have been out shopping for more oil ...
An now, Both Chinas currency the yuan and the Hong Kong dollar have held steady against their US counterpart despite sharp depreciations elsewhere in the region. THIS, coupled with the fact that some companies in Asia are in need of financial rescue, has presented clear opportunities.

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:45 - ID#255151)
Hedgehog: Re Common Denominator of Mossad and Piss


(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:54 - ID#39845)
Auric as in
piSS weak

(Thu Feb 26 1998 23:57 - ID#255151)

Can't blame a bloke for trying!