Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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Steve in TO__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:01 - ID#287337)
oris- thoughts on the AK-47
You mentioned that you would aim an AK-47 carefully when defending against a group. What you might discover in such a situation is that the AK-47 and its US counterpart, the M16, are not very accurate weapons.

They're called "assault weapons" for a reason. In the 1950's when the Pentagon was casting about for a replacement infantry field weapon, they decided to approach the question of what type of gun was most effective by applying a scientific, statistical approach. They studied what kind of fire in WWII and Korea produced the most hits, and what types of hits, keeping in mind that a wounded soldier is much more costly to the enemy than a dead one.

The most surprising finding the statisticians made was that aimed fire accounted for only a tiny proportion of the hits. They decided that in a battlefield situation quantity was more important than quality, so to speak, and that a long, accurate rifle like the WWI bolt action repeater was misplaced in an assault-type situation.

This led eventually to the design of the M16, a short carbine that has the ability to pump out huge quantities of lead, without the requirement to spend time taking careful aim, since exact aim doesn't make a whole lot of difference with a weapon of such low accuracy. You rely on statistics to hit your target. The AK-47 follows this philosophy as well.

Of course, this is exactly the kind of weapon that would be useful against an unorganized attack of a mob- until they took cover. If that were to happen, and you were to find yourself surrounded, you might find yourself wishing for a 50-cal. weapon that can flush guys out from behind things. There's a place for each kind of gun.

All this is moot, of course, since even the US is trying to take all assault weapons out of the hands of citizens, and truth-to-tell, I think an assault weapon disabled so that it will only work on semiauto is a waste of money. If you're going to fire at semiauto rates, then you can get very accurate guns that will make each shot count.

In fact if you want to make a serious impression on some hunkered-down assailants, a 50-cal. semiauto will do things, like shoot right through cars and trees and concrete block walls, that will convince them to turn tail.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:07 - ID#287114)
Thanks kindley for the return.
I see directors are buying options in William
wim.t A fine example of BRE. X hangover
REAL CHEAP.... chance for the 4 banger nite...almost day

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:07 - ID#384350)
Vronsky's 13:20, Apr 19
Vronsky your post yesterday afternoon mentions Settlement Risks. These are Huge today in the face of the Asian debacle.

Eddie Murphy in "Trading Places" said, "I get it. You guys are a couple of Bookies!"

Now Major American banks are just that with Forex derivative positions, and it looks like some of them Asian banks ( counter parties ) aren't performing on their obligations. JP Morgan has lawsuits in the Hundreds of Millions against some Korean Banks.

Counter party risks are enormous and affect many banks, not just Morgan. The IMF bailout scheme seems in part to get these mega banks off the hook.

Brother, can you spare a Billion?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:09 - ID#31868)
STEVE: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I read and re-read your post kid, so, what's your point. No registered automatic weapon has ever been used in a crime. Other than the Bitch Reno's assault in WACO -


(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:09 - ID#45173)
@mozel: I do not imagine it's possible for the US government
to take gold from US citizens without public support. Communists take from the rich for redistribution as a rule and everyone goes along with a broad philisophical notion--the inherent inequity of capitalism--as the justification. In times of severe economic distress the US has enacted laws to address threats to the viability of the nation, or, you could say, the government. If for some reason in the future--and I don't know why this might be the case--the only solution to ending economic chaos in the US is to gather up all the gold and reinstate a gold standard, then that is what will be done. The public will certainly at that time experience a severe crisis and will accept the government's position that gold confiscation is necessary to end that crisis.

You have to imagine a very different world, one where the civil liberties we enjoy today are radically restricted due to the primacy of maintaining order. You won't need a gun of your own to defend against criminals because theft will carry the death penalty. There won't be any criminals. My wife grew up in such a world, in Taiwan. Crimes from theft to drug possesion were punishable by death. Consequently, no crime and no drugs. Sure, innocent people were murdered by the government, but next to no one was murdered by a drug addict. It is not that way now. It is now much like the US, with lots of crime and a wide spectrum of tolerated behavior. Wealth and stability supports liberalism; poverty and instability beget totalitarianism. If you think the US government's in your face now, wait til there's a crisis.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:11 - ID#401460)

I agree, this apears to be the play to make right now: however, if the $ / currency dries up or deflates who will be buying the stocks or any thing else.

I am still betting on the quick rotation into mining stocks and gold funds once their value is seen.


Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:16 - ID#384350)
Glad to know your friend is doing okay. We all have much to be thankful for, despite our misgivings.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:18 - ID#31868)
Gianni Dioro

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:20 - ID#384350)
Speaking of Waco
I read that there are more guns per capita in your average home in Texas than there were at Mt. Carmel, almost by 2 to 1.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:24 - ID#222231)
Why all the bickering about the future direction of gold? I will reiterate HERE and NOW several compelling fundamentals that will propel th price of gold UP as follows:

1 ) The current price is at or below the cost of production to many producers. This will affect future production adversely by closures and cutbacks by many producers resulting in further negative imbalances in supply and demand.

2 ) Demand has been outstripping supply for more than several years. The current price is attractive to many people, especially Asians and Indians who are accumulating gold with a vengence, besides many others who percieve the true value for gold.

3 ) CB selling is subsiding drastically. These sales are mostly interbank related and a contrived deception to fool us all.

4 ) The reserve value for the BIS gold is $280/oz ( includes a safety factor of +/- 30% ) . The BIS will defend thier reserve value at all costs.

5 ) The dealings by the LBMA have been rising at an exponential rate that sooner or later will eventually blow up in thier face. Hopefully sooner!

6 ) All of the above will further exacerbate the supply and demand equation negatively that will propel the price of gold higher in the future.

If anyone believes that the current price of gold is a true value considering its world wide scarcity relative to paper and world population, they are naive to the nth degree. If one waits until the last minute to accumulate physical gold, one will lose out in a once in a lifetime opportunity.IMO. ( BETTER A DAY, MONTH, YEAR EARLY, THAN A DAY LATE. ) DO NOT WAIT, ACCUMULATE NOW! One caveat, use risk capital only.



(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:25 - ID#231337)
Hangover from the Bre-x?
Question: Is there still a big hangover from the Bre-x scandal? You Bet there is!! The VSE ( Vancouver Stock Exchange ) Jr. Metals have not recovered from this major oopsie!, and in fact have plunged resulting from the fallout of Bre-X combined with the drop in the Gold price. Fund managers are not buying into the Jr.s. The fear factor for a reprisal from both their investment strategists and investors is still too great. At the same time, its probably safe to say that the jr. developers and their potential sr. partners have taken more precautions than

ever, and yet they fail to win investor support.

There are longer term repercussions that come about as a result of this under investment. The low price of Gold itself will not encourage any new development. That will only ( as far a these Canadian Jr.s can affect ) hinder the securing and development of new Gold sources. That coupled with the Bre-X fear factor will in all likelihood result in a drop in the gold development activity, although I have not seen any numbers for 1997.

But at the same time, there are Jr.s that are securing and developing fine properties, and they probably have as much leverage and opportunity as any part of the gold sector given that they are at rock bottom.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:25 - ID#233199)
"Bears" reposting: Derivtives Danger - Reason to buy Gold

Date: Fri Apr 17 1998 01:31
Lan Man ( Stability in the Financial Markets  NOT! ) ID#320108:

A Reason to Own Gold

"The derivatives holdings of U.S. commercial banks increased 26.5% over the first nine months of 1997, up 50% from 1996. Chase Manhattan's derivatives exposure is equal to U.S. GDP and the U.S. banking system as a whole has $62 in off-balance sheet derivatives for every dollar of equity capital and $5 for every dollar of assets on the banks' balance sheets. A loss of 1.6% on the banks' derivatives portfolio would be enough to wipe out the ENTIRE EQUITY CAPITAL OF THE U.S. BANKING SYSTEM. ( emphasis mine )

"The Bank for International Settlements reported in November that $82.6 trillion in derivatives were held by 79 selected financial institutions in major nations at the end of 1996. Chase Manhattan was tops on the list with $7.9 trillion or 31% of all U.S. bank derivatives. Chase had $364 of derivatives for every dollar of equity and $22 in derivatives for every dollar in assets. Next was J.P. Morgan with $6.2 trillion or $537 in derivatives for every dollar of equity. Seven top banks had $109 billion in equity and $1.7 trillion in assets compared to $24 trillion in derivatives, or $220 in derivatives for every dollar in equity and $14 in derivatives for every dollar in assets. They had 26% of all U.S. bank equity, 35% of U.S. bank assets and 95% of the derivatives. In the first nine months of 1997 about $190 billion of asset-backed securities were issued, up 23% from 1996. It should be noted that J.P. Morgan's final 1997 quarter reflected $54 million in derivative losses and they designated $587 million of assets as non-performing derivatives for a total possible loss of $659 million. Now, if this isn't enough to scare you, you have serious problems."

( As copied from The Reaper 4/9/98 p.10 )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:28 - ID#339274)
FYI.The 27 year cyclical earnings top is being made in 1998.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:30 - ID#286230)
Quixotic 1: I see your point but I'm not persuaded. Munk has sold production ahead and is making over $400 an oz on a product worth less than $310. He has shut down high cost mines and is opening up some that will produce at $50 an oz. Estimated average cost for 1999 for Barrick is $150 an oz. Disney and Vronsky have shown even better investments but no one has shown a better way to make ABX pay.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:32 - ID#31868)
Gianni - Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I like you, some things in life are like tires,
don't retread...........let it rest...........

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:39 - ID#238422)
Steve in TO
Steve, thanks for your post.

If you remember my post, I mentioned 25-50 yards range.
When I say "aim each shot", I do not mean "shoot from
the hip Hollywood style". I tried many times to practice
"from the hip" shooting with both rifles and pistols, and
all I could do in this manner was to hit a 200 liter barrel
up to 10-12 yards. AK-47 or M-16 have sights, and you can
hit man-sized target at 25-50 yards with one shot, and
"aiming" time will be 2-3 sec. max. This is reasonable.

Penetration of steel core 7.62x39 AK-47 bullet is very
good, it will go though a lot of sheet metal ( 4-5 mm thick ) .
223 cal. of M-16 is not as good.

Use of 50 cal. rifle at such close range looks a little
bit to much, its kick will knock you of balance for
more than 2-3 seconds. But it's an impressive weapon for

For massive firepower you need to use belt-feed machine
gun, which may be a problem to get for private use even
in the U.S.

If enemy uses cover within 25-30 yards, we got hand grenades
to handle this kind of situation.

And the last: remember 2 bad guys with AKs in L.A.?
2 against 200 cops in control of the area for approx.
2 hours? Those 2 guys were bad guys, but it shows what
AK can do. Cops are still recalling how those bullets
penetrated everywhere...2 vs. 200, just imagine...They
finally got them killed with borrowed M-16...

Disconnecting on AK-47 subject, I'm afraid to upset
some posters. Thanks again.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:39 - ID#339274)

(Mon Apr 20 1998 00:51 - ID#222231)
Want to grow some DOPE? Plant pete.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:01 - ID#220325)
APH--Good advice but too modest on your part
I only wish I had your expertise. I will look forward to next post as always.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:11 - ID#31868)
4 mil, crossbow, quiet and never on a list...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:16 - ID#31868)
Pardon me, forgot, SHARPES, rifle, will drop a rogue Triceratops one mile away, no problem.

Although, I prefer my killing in saltwater...

Ah heck, just some fun thoughts from the Long Island.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:21 - ID#24135)
I know Im wasting my time but ....
For quion97 and robnoel..
so you understand a bit better
1. I speak only of the Western Cape.. not the rest of
South Africa.
2. RSA and Ex Rhodesians are in general the worst
critics of RSA.. They have to be in order to justify
to themselves and others why they left.
3. Decline of Rand from 1984 was due to inflation
which averaged about 16 % .. it is now down to 6 %.
Man power lost to stikes is a fifth of what it was
over the period 87 -95 ( althouth first quarter 1998 is up on
prior year ) . High Inflation was due mainly to sanctions
campaign plus war in Angola plus Renamo support in
4. Maybe its the last hoorah for the USA TOO old
buddy.. You guys talk more about defending yourselves
from riots than we do in Paarl.
5. I have an old S&W .38 which I used once to scare
sh!t out of 2 colored guys who were stealing avocados.
I dont lock my cars, have no barbed wire, and have not
been robbed in the 10 years Ive been here. In 2 years
in Australia I was robbed twice,
6. Funny to me that the Human Rights Commision and
Reuters makes a big issue over the 4 Blacks that have
been killed while never mentioning the 464 white
farmers killed over the last 4 years. Tell me all
about the HRC. The Black baby was carried on the back
of the woman who was shot. The farmer was drunk and
was a gun pointer. The Blacks involved were known to
him and worked for him from time to time. They lived
on his property with his consent.
7. I would not live on a farm. Here or anywhere else
in the world.
8. Blacks are in the minority in the Western cape.
Few non South Africans seem aware of that.
9. My interest in RSA is only for purposes of a good
place to live ( the Western Cape ) and for investments.
Ive made a great deal of money in RSA investments over
the past 15 years all the while listening to "experts"
tell me how lousy it is .. Tell me MORE.
10 . Just cashed in Harmony for 100 % profit in
3 months .. deciding what to do next .. I hope it
rains like that on my parade a bit more .. rains MONEY that is.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:23 - ID#401460)

Great Site - Good graphs and analysis + Basic info. a must see by all.
Scroll down on page, check out the 73/87/29 comparisons etc. to todays market - uses the S&P not the Dow.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:25 - ID#238422)
Slingshot from Meyers Store will do it also...
By the way, I like to throw knife too...

I cann't believe I'm so bad...Do you still want
me in your company?...

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:25 - ID#24135)
Blood Lust rising
Hey guys ..
For serious killing how about long range ground pounders
napalm and flamethrowers ..

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:26 - ID#248180)
Currency Wars & Dollar Regional Alliance

Strong support for Americas free trade area
By Gerard Baker in Santiago
The leaders of 34 countries in the Americas yesterday promised to press ahead with the creation of a common market in goods and services by 2005 that would embrace 750m people.
The heads of government said their goal of a Free Trade Area of the Americas ( FTAA ) was realistic despite growing doubts about the commitment of the US, by far the largest country in the region, to further trade liberalisation.

They are redrawing the lines around the world as we speak.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:27 - ID#24135)
the triceratops plague
For tolerant1
are you having a problems with these things too ??

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:30 - ID#248180)
Euro new method of payment from FT London this AM

General Inds 
British Steel to cut costs by paying suppliers in euros
By Simon Kuper
British Steel plans to pay some of its UK, Australian and Brazilian suppliers in euros instead of pounds and dollars.

The move could help push other UK companies into embracing the euro for domestic use, ushering in a British economy that operates in two currencies.

British Steel receives much of its income in continental European currencies and has been hit exceptionally hard by their decline against the dollar and the pound.

It will not force suppliers to accept payment in euros, but smaller companies will be anxious to please such a behemoth, although many of them previously barely exposed to exchange rate risk would become vulnerable to moves in the euro against sterling.

"Larger British companies will use the euro to pay suppliers or expect their customers to pay them in euros, creating a cascade effect," said Jeremy Wagener, director general of the Association of Corporate Treasurers.

In this way the euro could enter the UK by the back door, even though the country will not join the planned launch of European economic and monetary union on January 1, 1999. Britain is expected to enter Emu in 2002 at the earliest.

ICI is thought to be the only other leading UK company to have said so far that it wants to deal with British customers in euros rather than pounds.
Many multinationals are expected to want to deal in euros in the UK. The British branch of Siemens, the German electronics company, will encourage UK suppliers to accept payments in euros.

British Steel said it would tell suppliers about its plans to pay in euros "before too long". The company is embarking on a wider initiative to reduce supply costs. It hopes to persuade suppliers of raw materials in Brazil and Australia, where the dollar has long been an important mode of exchange, that "using the euro might actually be an advantage to them".

British Steel believes its move will prevent further losses from exchange rate changes. Chiefly because of the pound's ascent, the company's pre-tax profits shrank from 1.1bn in 1996 to 450m in 1997, with analysts expecting a further drop to 250m this year.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:31 - ID#401460)
Turning Red

Asia headed South again.

Good night all, and good luck.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:33 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John, I am sorry for running with
the weapon around beautiful bushes...

I've been at shooting range today, firing
my AK after shooting clays. Still in shooting
mode... Will not scare people at Kitco again...

Peace for all.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:39 - ID#24135)
Born To KILL

Dont GO My brother you just got me started. For Oris amd tolerant1
I forgot .. Disney arsenal ALSO includes Spanish
Civil war bayonet and a Turkoman beheading sword for
hand to hand. PLUS a British Cavalry lance with
colours from Boer war in case I am attacked by
triceratops while on horseback.... Talk about BAD

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:40 - ID#31868)
oris - 1:25
more so...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:42 - ID#31868)
John Disney_A
Worse than dwarf infestations...AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:46 - ID#31868)
folks, I'm toast, little eskimo lovely to die for dragging me away,
pity me, nah.......................

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:55 - ID#384350)
T'was a good weekend, ANOTHER is back.

Cooking Pasta for breakfast, gonna throw some dirty clothes in a suitcase, and I'll soon be crossing the border in search of gold. I'll be gone for a time, yes?

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:56 - ID#24135)
for tolerant1.
Scattering poisoned M&Ms works well
for dwarves. Triceratops are a
different ball game.

Quixotic 1
(Mon Apr 20 1998 01:57 - ID#48200)
Gold, Guns, and goodnight
True, Mr. Munk is selling Gold at $400/oz. Forgive my cynicism, but this is being accomplished though a system that has depressed the price of Gold for years, deceived investors and the public, and now portends the demise of the Gold industry, as we know it. All this with a visionary hedging system that he ( and his contacts ) pioneered. I sense a sell out somewhere. My beef is with Mr. Munk and the Board. I think the underlying company is great. I own 4800 shares myself. Behind every great mining company, are the properties they own and the guys in the trench.

Steve in TO, Oris, All;
Tactics, training and preparedness will prevail in all but the direst situations, and good intell should keep you out of those. Know yourself, your weapon, and its capabilities. Practice-practice-practice, and I don't consider 200 rounds a year enough. Learn "the principles of tradecraft". I would also recommend a good quality muzzle break. This 25 to 50 yard/whites-of-their-eyes shooting is too close for me. Get me a good sniper rifle. "Death from afar" is most intimidating.

All; Great postings this weekend, Thank you to all.

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Mon Apr 20 1998 02:28 - ID#153102)
@Shellor @Tolerant1 @aj @The Scene
@Shellor Some uplifting posts from you of late. You know, they would still be sending somebody else's son to replace the last one ground up if nobody had said no. People in government can never be trusted. In fact, that no man can be trusted with power over others was a principle of the founding. As we have regressed from public wisdom to public foolishness our suffering has increased. Resistance is sometimes harder than it looks to be to those doing what they have always been told to do by authority.

@Tolerant1 Who reveals himself in flashes in deep waters, but I think I know some of him now.

@aj Government has established what I call a psychic dictatorship over many people. Mental liberation is what is needed now. And dry powder.

The War between Gold and the USG is actually a struggle between the values of individual freedom, choice, and responsibility and the values of elite planners and organizers. Every argument made for gold as property also applies to drugs and the war on drugs is actually a war on property, if you consider your own body and your belongings to be your property.

Gold, like freedom, has been devalued and hounded for many a year. Now we see the entire structure of international trade and finance teetering for want of integrity, an individual value. Derivatives contracts to hedge risk are no substitute. And so we find, ironically, the much maligned Central Bankers as warriors for gold and the values of the individual as opposed to those of the state. For gold is the money of individuals and their values and Notes of credit is the money for the state and its values. In our time affairs have come to the irreducible point. The irreducible point is that there is no substitute for gold as a pledge to guarantee performance. A deposit of gold is the irreplaceable means to eliminate the settlement risk in transactions. The War on Gold is lost on this front. On another front, there are still countries that are governed by men and not by socialist functionairies. Socialist functionairies in committee can delude themselves or be deluded into believing that gold is not money and will accept payment in Notes of credit. Men at the head of governments are never so deluded. There are still enough governments headed by men in the world, men who will take nothing but gold for payment, that the War on Gold is lost on this front, too. This is going to show up in charts as some cycle peak or valley soon. Internationally, the War on Gold is lost. But, there is still for Americans, at least, the domestic front. Notes are mere promises and there are going to be many promises broken, but there is one promise now broken that we must never abandon and that is the promise made to us and left to us as our inheritance by the founders when they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their honor for our liberty and independence.
Government for individuals was established by individuals and, if it is to be, will be so reformed or re-established. Whatever your part is, no other individual can do it for you.

I confess to a conviction of providential fortune in being at this site at this time. I have recieved much. BBMML

(Mon Apr 20 1998 02:31 - ID#22956)
Bart - that is the only way to describe it. An object of beauty with little peer. You Canucks outdid yourselves with this one. I LOVE IT! I urge ALL and lurkers alike to purchase at least one of these coins from Bart Kitner. You will probably want more when you see 'em. And they are guaranteed! And they support this site. I am in love with gold now. I must own more. I DON'T CARE I'M BUYING MORE....F*, have you bought your mounties yet? StudioR? Cherokee? ANOTHER??!? ETC? If you have not....get crackin! cuddle my mountie

proudgoldbug ( ohmy ) :- )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 02:54 - ID#255151)
Today in History

Marcus Aurelius and Adolf Hitler born. Australian wombat dies at age 26 in London Zoo, the oldest known marsupial.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:04 - ID#255304)
Does anyone know what the scheduled production run for the mounties is?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:07 - ID#153102)
The American legal system has many failings which I know well. But, it exists solely to protect the rights of the individual from the mob majority. Invariably, people who know their rights at law do much better in it than people who are ignorant. In my estimation any two bit bureaucrat could strip you to your shorts. It is easy to be a helpless victim. It is hard to stand in court as an individual and prevail from knowledge. Your reply brings to my mind the proverb that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:10 - ID#39828)
$AUS v USGold
What you see is what has been the sharp upward spike in $AUSGold.
Any comments would be appreciated.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:11 - ID#340302)
@AUROPHILE... the innuendo of gold confiscation...
...promotes tremendous psychological damage amongst goldbugs. It is nothing short of a crime and one which you unfortunately help propagate.

I refer to your post in which you stated that the Australian CB let slip that, owing to all the gold in the ground in Australia, it would no longer be necessary to maintain gold reserves in the CB.

Now, I do not deny the verity of the preceding statement. It is definitely accurate based upon my recollection of Australian CB announcements at the time of their gold reserve sale.

However, your extrapolation is completely inaccurate. It simply is not syllogistic but rather is a form of "gold short logic" now currently so much in vogue. It does not automatically compute that, owing to all the gold in the ground in Australia, ergo, when push comes to shove, the Australian government plans to nationalize the Australian gold mines and/or use eminent domain to seize whatever gold it desires in Australia. That is simply your cynical, pessimistic interpretation.

My interpretation ( the glass is half-full version ) is that the Australian government feels that, if for any reason there is a gold price explosion, it can participate via existent or raised taxes on domestic gold mines...or it might conceivably create a national mining company to develop unexploited in-ground reserves.

At no time did the words "confiscation," "expropriation," or "eminent domain" come up in any of the press releases emanating from the Australian CB. That much, I distinctly remember. Moreover, it simply is not a sentiment that would garner tremendous popular support in free enterprise oriented Australia. It would threaten the country's entire way of doing business.

Analogously, in Canada, another nation that has sold most of its CB gold reserves, there is no reason to suspect nationalization, confiscation, or eminent domain would be utilized in the event of significant gold revaluation.

One need only look at Canada's petroleum industry: after the formation of the OPEC cartel, with skyrocketing oil prices, Canada did not expropriate or confiscate oil companies. Instead, it created Petro Canada, a vertically integrated national oil development/production'retail company. Now, some private petrol producers groused a great deal about Petro Canada owing to its favored status amongst domestic oil producers...but that was as close as the government came to "confiscation" other words, not close at all.

There is simply no reason to expect that countries such as Canada or Australia, with proven track records of private enterprise encouragement, would resort to confiscation.

Enough already with these baseless, inflammatory anti-gold slanders!



(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:22 - ID#286279)
I think a some combat beer can competition may be enlightening. I don't have AK-47, I will shoot Mini-14 and have S&W 9mm on belt in the unlikely case Ruger jams.

Team Gold will prevail.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:23 - ID#340302)
@EB...thank you for your info pertaining to Bart's MOUNTIES...
...I have no doubt that they are tremendous coins. I hope Bart does very well with them.

As for myself, I am a real Eagle-phile. I have a great collection and I am closing an order to purchase a great deal more.

In other words, I do adhere to the mantra:


And of course, don't forget my latest ditty pertaining to gold support behind the new EURO:




(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:30 - ID#39828)
Chart of
Lihir on ASX.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:39 - ID#284255)
Is that what happened?
And I thought that littly Johnny Howard sold all that gold so he could donate all the profits to his friends in Indonesia.
You know his friends who don't go shopping here in OZ anymore?

But really he did this cause his mate BC whispered that it would be a good idea.
BC said "sell your gold and buy some of our bonds ( they're worth more - good for credit ) and we'll lend you more so that you can lend that to Asia so they can afford to buy more of your goods and pay back my friends some of thoses bad losses in Asia. Then we'll all be happy."

"Then we'll let you come and play in our sand pile."

Johnny thought this was a good idea as he liked playing with those rich blokes over there who had all these amazing gadgets and girlfriends.

Now that he's upset the OZzies and upset the Asians and the rich blokes don't want to play with him no more cause he's a square dude.
He'll have to go back to his old lonely sand pit.

Just as well Johnny only sold some of his gold.
Maybe he can buy some more friends for a week?

Poor Poor Johnny.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:46 - ID#286279)

shades went yellow mellow
who sings bootles of ron or is it tekwila
head spins sweat flys
why 451F

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:52 - ID#252391)
Repeating Pattern
Gold and silver are firm to a bit higher into the London opening hold steady most of their trading day, and then tail off falling into the NY opening bolloming at 10 am NY time, then a rally ensues and we get back to almost even. Over time a declining top has set in.

Silver lasted about 15 minutes at $6.30 and then fell. Maybe we'll see this pattern broken this week. I wonder what it means.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 03:59 - ID#29999)
I just browse this forum to get some outstanding info on the gold market, but I am tickled at this talk on military weapons. Last one was on the MIG-29 vs. the F16. I will comment on the AK-47-and M16 and the concept for Crowd control ( cannot be used on people, Geneva Convention-Sorry not big rounds ) . Both the AK-47 and M-16 are very accurate weapons when fired as a single shot. Both weapons have this ability on all military versions. In fact 90% of the AK-47 weapons that are mentioned are not even AK's, but AKM-Pressed production. The New M-16A2 is a very accurate weapon, but as far as crowd control ( I could not find the reference to this on the forum ) maybe leasing an M1 tank. Seriously, you need to think of your area of defense-or area of interest. If you want to assault a build complex both weapons suck. Pistol or compact assault weapons with intense fired power. Think UZZI, but remember it is not a locking bolt-if you drop it-you will have a very high probability of having one less foot, and an empty weapon. Outdated but still effective are the Mac's-It is a locking bolt! As with the LA thing.It was a CAR15 that brought the one dude down-The other shoot himself. The two guys had full body armor, but one of them was wounded 29 times, and died only from bleeding to death, no major injury was inflicted. I think you can think of it this way, suppression leads to extreme shooting, and the police were relying on pistols or shotguns at distances greater then the 70 meters. Only 2 or 3 officers at anytime got closer then 30 meters. AND there were 200 officer involved, but they were not shooting at the same time. The LAPD did an outstanding job in restraining the area of conflict, and eliminating the bad guys. OK, enough on this subject. Oh, one more thing, .357 as a back up, not a good idea. Heavy and limited to 6 rounds. If you're already using a back up, you're already in bad shape. Think of something light, but with over a 6 round ability. 9mm are nice, but if you need to shoot a big guy over 250lbs, you need to make one good shot or a lot of little center shots and just pray that he is not on LSD or he is in a wheelchair-Because if not-You will probably die from his hands-

(Mon Apr 20 1998 04:18 - ID#24864)
Re: Mounties
I think our host, Bart Kitner posted here alittle while back that 30,000
mounties were produced and, at that time, 9000 were left. Perhaps Bart might be so kind as to update us if he has time. John_C

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:03 - ID#255284)
With all due respect to my learnd kitco economist friends

But wait! There's more...

Q. What's the difference between an economist and a befuddled old man with Alzheimer's?

A. The economist is the one with the calculator.

An economist is someone who doesn't know what he's talking about - and make you feel it's your fault.

Q: How many economists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Seven, plus/minus ten.

Q:How many economists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Irrelevant - the light bulb's preferences are to be taken as given.

Economists are people who are too smart for their own good and not smart enough for anyone else's.

And, not Finnish, but Swedish:

"Nationalekonomi ar som rodvin - man ska inte lukta pa det utan dricka det, men dricker man for mycket pa en gang finns det risk for yrsel"

"Economics is like red wine - you shouldn't smell it but drink it, but if you drink too much on one occasion, there is a risk for dizziness"

When drawing up the guest list for a dinner party, inviting more than 25% economists ruins the conversation.

To an economist, real life is a special case.

I told you not to encourage me!

Glad to see the tone of the place lifted while I was away. Only to be expected. I have some stories of silver and gold, volcanoes spewing sulphides that would turn a jeweller insane. They must wait. Rugby calls.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:05 - ID#330175)
G'Day mate~~~~

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:05 - ID#330175)
@ Cape Breton
June Gold down .70 @ 308.70

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:18 - ID#238295)
JSE gold index flat this morning despite modest downward pressure on POG. Encouraging trend if it continues.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:21 - ID#255284)
Hi Ted

Ya know you are *antipodean* to me? It means having your feet where your head should be, or you don't like pod persons, or you got to tip the dean to get a degree, ornot liking feet, I dunno something like that.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:24 - ID#255284)
To the poster formerly known as GSC
Morning George!

Hey, no fair calling RJ a popinjay. I'm the only one round here who stoops that low. I mean, one pair of RJ's silk shorts probably costs more than my weekly after tax income, yes?

He's no popinjay, he's fancy pants.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:38 - ID#39828)
Tip of the day.
When in the barnyard, stand behind the cattle dog. This will prevent
injury if she lunges at the the rooster.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:45 - ID#286279)
You can't be "The Jaybird" because Jay Lawrence is at KTAR Arizona or so I hear.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:49 - ID#255284)
Hi Hedgehog, good to see you. Are you translating from Finnish?

if you don't got mail, load your uzzi and storm yer ISP.

Plse repost your e-mail address.

Gold down in NZ today, currency appreciated slightly against Yanqui$. But Silver looking back in buy territory. SPreads getting narrower.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:51 - ID#255284)
that one soared over my head, amigo.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 05:54 - ID#185448)
Brother, can you spare me your law-suit?
Deep Throat announced Thu that we would have to discuss a lot in a day or two. Im far from being a slavish recipient of cryptic statements ( Only exemption: Mike Sheller ) though Im eager to find a clue to the role of the big boys in that gold-game. Now that belgian-CB-sale-thing was not a too bad thing of prediction - but not fully convincing, as far as my natural distrust is concerned. Though: I respect ANOTHER as a poster, the way I respect any poster here on this site.

But now wait a minute: One or two days he said, means Fri or Sat - reason enough for my to buy me a weekend-issue of several daily newspapers. Found a tiny article saying the following under the header No way!":
Swiss CB does not seek for an extrajudicial settlement with Nazi-victims, said CB-president Hans Meyer Friday in Washington." The rest is blabla.

1. There a two ways ( in general ) to settle a juridical dispute: The juridical proceeding or the extrajudicial. The later is to chose, if you think you have otherwise to loose more. The first one is to choose, if you see any chance to win/make things cheaper or if you want to win time.

2. Filing a law-suit on the subject of reparation always contains a lot of insecurities and risks for both sides, but usually the prosecuting party has the more difficult part. To prepare such a collective action against the Swiss-CB will feed hoards of lawyers for years. An extrajudicial settlement would have made things easier: Problems like forget validity of the claims, court of jurisdiction, applicable law, etc. would have thus been avoided. A law-suit of that size will be floged through all possible instances - it will take years and years until a final decision is made.

3. It was one of POGs blackest days in 97, when Switzerland announced to finance fund-donations with gold-sales ( in fact it was one of my own investments blackest days, as all my 360-calls went down the drain ) . The message was We sell" - as well as some days ahead of the mini-crash in autumn, when again Switzerland was thinking loud about the gold-backing of their francs. Now they are sending a different message: We dont think seriously about selling."

It seems to be too much of a coincident to be coincidentally. And it starts to make - somehow - sense in a bigger scale with all that BIS and EURO and maybe oil.

And maybe ANOTHER shares his time-zone with me and lives in one of those appartements with a view in Grindelwald or Montreux. Cause maybe he means Merci, vielmals", when posting his legendary thank you".

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:01 - ID#347447)
ready on the right, ready on the left...
All this talk of guns is amusing. I would like to see a kitcoite FIRE a .50 caliber weapon of any kind that wasn't attached to at least a Land Rover. Do any of you think that the fine points of "accuracy" are going to bring you out of an armed assault by a lot of other crazy run-amok civilian people with guns? Or worse, a lot of well-trained police and military type crazy people with guns. I suggest, if you are really serious about being so serious about defending yourself with weapons against the frenzied mob, you enroll in some kind of very harsh training program for at LEAST a year, and go visit as many gory highway accidents as you can each day. You'll want to be able to control your fear and shock when the sh*t hits the fan, because your "accurate" weapons won't be much good when you're shaking so hard your knees are knocking and all you really want to do is cry "Mommy." Been there, done that.
It's not a Sunday thing. Bottom line - keep a shotgun in your house. You're NOT a sniper. You're NOT a combat assault troop. You just want to keep the ugly peeple from getting TOO close to you, your wife, your kids, your dog, and, MAYBE, if your really think it's worth it, your gold. I would also suggest you start running, working out, and take up boxing. As Sarge would say, you all look like piss-poor troops to me. As for me, I will staunchly defend my couch ( or at least MY side of it ) with a well aimed remote control. Just watch it. That infrared can irritate your retina if I get it in your eye long enough.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:02 - ID#330175)
'Gold Fever' spreads to Nova Scotia

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:07 - ID#255284)
Good Morning to you! V interesting post. Your European take on these matters is greatly appreciated. As is your delightful posting style. I am still gettin a kick out of "silence of the limes."
How do you do those quotes below the line? is it a feature of a German keyboard?

There is a lot of dirty washing to be aired ( on the Seigfried line? ) before this ECU is anything more than a pious hope, yes? Nazi gold is just one skeleton in Europe's closets.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:11 - ID#286279)
Sorry, I have been sufferin' from recurring bouts of goldbug fever. I get deja vu, delirious, I hear things. A shot of gold is the only thing that helps.

Jay "Jaybird" Lawrence was a very popular country western KLAC ( ? ) disc jockey in the 70's. He was also known for his solid gold Cadillac with a set of longhorns for a hood ornament.;- )

I getting diizy again, someone, quick, gimme some gold...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:13 - ID#255284)
I understand, believe me, I understand.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:16 - ID#403335)
Mike Sheller
"As for me, I will staunchly defend my couch ( or at least MY side of it ) with a well aimed remote control. Just watch it. That infrared can irritate your retina if I get it in your eye long enough."

Thanks for the smile this Monday morning!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:20 - ID#432157)
To Mike-----re combat
Can. military trained many many many years ago,sure as ---- would not want to take on trained troops to-day .
Will not have a weapon in the house ,we all would be DEAD by now if we had .Deadly play toys .Holloywood heors yes-real life NO WAY.

My Thoughts---- Sorry BART must say GOOOOOOOOOO Gold

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:27 - ID#330175)
Euro & U.S. Dollar

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:28 - ID#316193)
John Crudele Probably Should Say, "Japan WILL Dump Its US Bonds"

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:32 - ID#330175)
'Morning George'...&
Whatta relief~~~~~~

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:48 - ID#39828)

(Mon Apr 20 1998 06:59 - ID#285121)
Geoffs / No Firearm ?
I'm a vietnam vet and enough age and wisdom that I would not want to take on a swat team either but to be without any firearm on 1/1/2000 when the lights may very well go out would be ill advised. Looting in the metro's could be a big problem. Please don't think the Government will protect you and your family.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:03 - ID#185448)
Re: Quotes below the lines.
If you mean that sorta things  - well them are easy: Prepare my posts in MSWord - there is a column Extras" - got to Options" and then to Auto Format" - This is where you can chose the option replace quotes with typographic ones" - at least in the German version of MSWord. Dunno, if you can do it in the Nude-See-Land-Version.

Re: Skeletons in the toilet
We have them - call it Corpses in the cellar". Nazi-gold and -money seems to be more and more a specific Swiss problem, as it is the only country involved that was not forced to let pants down after WWII. I know that Germany and Austria repatriated a lot - but not all. But that concerns only monetary evaluable assets. The real losses, the moral debt, can never be repaid.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:20 - ID#26793)
BOJ report confirms several regions of Japan are now in recession.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:35 - ID#45173)
@aurator Economist joke
A physicist, chemist, and economist are stranded on a desert island with nothing but a case of canned tuna fish to eat and a palm tree for shade. The physicist removes his coke bottle classes and attempts to concentrate the sunlight on a can to heat it to burst it but after a day of trying fails. The chemist attempts to create an acid from the sap of the tree to dissolve the can but after two days of trying fails. They are now despondent and close to starving. The economist suddenly stands up and says, "I've got it! Assume a can opener!"

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:40 - ID#26793)
Japanese regional bank announces major losses

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:47 - ID#26793)
Decline in oil prices is both good news and bad news.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:51 - ID#31868)
Hey Sheller1?, and, so, my
moon? and, so, do I have to be reborn or what?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:53 - ID#26793)
Computer glut hurting Taiwan

(Mon Apr 20 1998 07:58 - ID#26793)
Bloated inventories hurting computer industry worldwide

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:08 - ID#31868)
Poisoned M&Ms?
vicious, simply vicious...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:09 - ID#31868)
Over capacity, a crushing deflation is surely engulfing this world.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:11 - ID#26793)
Inventory woes forcing drastic price cuts across all computer lines

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:14 - ID#248180)
@ PGM's Russia Supply - London Am

Choppy Palladium Trading Follows Duma Vote

LONDON -- ( Reuters ) Palladium traded choppily on Friday as renewed political uncertainty in Moscow blighted the chances of an immediate start to 1998 exports of the metal from Russia, the world's main supplier.

The rare white metal began dull on the back of U.S. dollar strength only to firm sharply after Russia's opposition-dominated lower house of parliament rejected President Boris Yeltsin's chosen prime minister for the second time.

Palladium peaked at $323.50 an ounce bid within a couple of hours of Duma deputies' vote only to lose most of its gains as the European afternoon progressed.

It was last quoted at $310.00/$315.00 an ounce versus its previous New York close of $307.90/$308.40, having traded in a near $30 range through the day.

Platinum, which is less dependent on Russian supplies than its fellow platinum group metal ( PGM ) palladium, also gained on the Duma news only to fall back to $413.00/$415.00 versus its previous New York close of $411.00/$413.00.

"The PGMs were weaker this morning on the stronger dollar overnight and then the Duma vote sent them on their way up again," said one London dealer.

"I personally think it's all a bit overdone as it's hardly new news. But trade is quite thin as there are still holidays around," he added.

The Duma must now hold a crunch vote by next Friday that will lead either to a parliamentary climb down on the nomination question or unwanted early elections.

President Yeltsin wasted no time in making clear he would not cave in, resubmitting Sergei Kiriyenko's name for the decisive vote to take place nearly five weeks after he sacked the old government for going soft on reforms.

Although Kiriyenko has reportedly signed the orders setting PGMs export quotas for 1998, the state precious metals reserve has said it could still be weeks or months before they are released onto the market.

Russia last year supplied about 60 percent of the world's palladium and up to a fifth of its platinum and prices have soared on the export problems.

Gold and silver had little to show for their day's trading on Friday, barely disturbing the narrow limits of their current ranges.

Gold fixed at $308.45 an ounce in the afternoon, just up on the morning's $308.20, while the spot price softened later to be last at $306.90/$307.40 versus New York's $307.90/308.40 close.

Silver was just lower at $6.27/$6.30 versus $6.31/6.34.

"People tried to buy silver on the back of the PGMs but ran into resistance at $6.32/$6.33," said the dealer.

"I think the upsides on gold and silver are a little limited. The funds bought a fair amount of gold last week when we got up to the $315 area and were knocked back. So they are obviously sitting on some paper losses now," he said.

"They will probably liquidate those positions, which will probably bring us back down to $300, where I think we will go quiet until the ECB tells us what it's going to do about gold," he added.

The European Central Bank, whose job will be to oversee 11 European Union countries' efforts to launch the euro single currency from Jan. 1 next year, is due to decide some time after May 2 on how much gold to hold in its reserves of nearly 50 billion ECU ( $54.9 billion ) .

The bullion market has been transfixed for months with what amount the ECB will choose, as well as what rules it sets for the remainder of euro countries' gold holdings. (  ( c ) 1998 Reuters )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:23 - ID#26793)
That is the point I am trying to make. Computers, automobiles, airplanes, oil. These are key elements of the world economy. They account for perhaps half of all trade. All are in excess inventory with even more production capacity scheduled to come on-line soon.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:29 - ID#340459)
Asian Market Roundup for Monday

SYDNEY, April 20 Asia Pulse - The weekend rally on Wall
Street failed to provide much boost to the Asian stock
exchanges today, with the previous week's selling spree
continuing in most bourses.
Share prices fell in Seoul, Manila, Tokyo, Singapore and
Bangkok, while Hong Kong, Sydney, Jakarta and Kuala Lumpur saw
some gains.
South Korean share prices fell for the fourth straight day
amid a wait-and-see attitude prevailing in the market.
The leading composite stock price index lost 5.95 points,
or 1.4 percent lower, to close at 435.73.
Tradings totaled 35.58 million shares on a turnover of
245.4 billion won ( US$175.9 million ) , breaking the year's
record low set only Friday.
Japanese share prices closed marginally lower for the third
consecutive day today, as the yen closed lower against the
dollar after a sharp rise in the March trade surplus.
The Nikkei stock average ended 6.70 points lower at
In Manila, share prices closed 0.9 percent lower amid
worries over higher interest rates and weak first quarter
corporate results coupled with regional uncertainty caused by
Japan's economic woes.
The composite index closed down 19.50 points at 2,156.60.
In Bangkok, shares fell 4.62 points to close at 434.37,
with investors remaining on the sidelines, awaiting the
outcome of today's meeting between the Bank of Thailand and
associations of bankers and finance companies to discuss
interest rates.
Negative sentiments prevailed in Singapore too where lack
of positive leads saw the share prices close lower.
The Straits Times industrials index closed down 4.76
points, 0.31 percent, at 1,510.39.
However, bargain hunting, sparked by the weekend rally on
Wall Street helped to end the consecutive three-day session of
losses on the Hong Kong market, which ended 1.4 percent
The key Hang Seng index adding 150.31 points to close at
The Australian stock market drifted higher in quiet trade
with media giant News Corp posting better gains than most.
The all ordinaries index lifted five points, or 0.17 per
cent, to 2872.5 with turnover valued at a below-average
$656.44 million and 244.75 million shares changing hands.
In Kuala Lumpur, share prices closed 0.87 percent higher as
foreigners short-covered futures.
The KLSE composite index closed 5.51 points higher at
The Jakarta Stock Exchange recorded very little change
today following cautious trading amid expectations of interest
rate increase this week.
The composite index closed up 0.254 points, or 0.05 percent
higher, at 508.156.

* SYDNEY - All Ords 2872.5 ( up 5.0 points )
* HONG KONG - Hang Seng 11,151.63 ( up 150.31 points )
* SEOUL - Composite 435.73 ( down 5.95 points )
* TOKYO - Nikkei 15,697.10 ( down 6.70 points )
* MANILA - Composite 2,156.60 ( down 19.50 points )
* SINGAPORE STI index 1,510.39 ( down 4.76 points )
* JAKARTA - Composite 508.156 ( up 0.254 points )
* KUALA LUMPUR - KLSE index 634.29 ( up 5.51 points )
* BANGKOK - SET index 434.37 ( down 4.62 points )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:29 - ID#26793)
Following up on my excess capacity post; these industries are all highly leveraged and dependent upon future sales to meet the loan repayments and interest obligations they have made.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:32 - ID#347447)
we all have to be reborn. some more than others.

Here's your Moon - (
now you'll all excuse me as I leave for the office.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:34 - ID#347447)
Martian Monday
PS - We should still look for Mars to possibly roil gold today and/or tommorrow. ( LGB reminded me to post this, as he was very concerned when he looked in his emphemeris...Thanks Liberty Guy! )

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:36 - ID#347447)
PPS - Anybody got a spare $150mil in the couch cushions for a nice rich copper/gold/silver/zinc project in Africa, email me. Serious. Sorry Bart, I'm going, I'm going.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:47 - ID#31868)
Donald_A - my worst fears are being realized, within that thought
I refer to the fact that I think The Great Reckoning was highly optimistic. Surely I am saddened as I see a world needing leadership and no honor in our leaders...none...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:55 - ID#238295)
signs of a top?
The Fiend's Superbear page quotes a futurist ( Harry Dent ) as projecting Dow 35,000 within 10 years. Another investment stategist is quoted as saying there is no theoretical limit on how high P/E ratios can go, since everybody wants to stay in equities for the long haul.

All the worry about confiscation with gold still in the dumps is making some gold bulls look like paranoids. Let's stop giving people like Andy Smith material he can use to further ridicule gold investors.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 08:59 - ID#269409)
@ Old Gold
"LOOK" like paranoids?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:04 - ID#238295)
dogs of 10:00 AM
Now that POG has regained most of its overnight losse, let's see how much bite the dogs of 10:00 AM have today.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:04 - ID#256326)
farfel's mission
Sometimes it is a good thing to know whether someone's positon is a reasoned matter or a psychological reflex. Mike Sheller's comments on gun use reflect the former. Farfel's mission against gold shorters, real and imaginary, is the latter. Except for short term technical calls no one who knows me would consider me anti-gold. Nor can my quoting of remarks the RBA made after they sold much of their gold be co construed.

My post to Another relates to the very real possibility that some gold mines will either cease to exist or become the property of their creditors. This is certainly not a novel or radical idea, not in this past year. My point was/is that the public ( personal, not governmental ) ownership possibilities ( for mining stocks ) MAY be decreased by this very real phenomenon of massive forward selling and its unexpected outcome in some cases.

Farfel, gold is a refuge and a comfort for many of us, but not a tantrum pacifier as it appears to be for you.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:06 - ID#26669)
Bart re Thin palladium market?
Bart, what is the deal about the physical palladium market? I notice that you don't have listed buy prices but do sell casting grain. Surely there must be at least one or two dentists in Canada who use the nasty stuff? Is it true that there is such a HUGE spread due to thin market trading and chaotic price fluctuations nowadays that sellers are embarrassed to publish buy prices?

Have you ever thought about expanding your role as a market maker for persons who want to swap the PGMs for gold and vice versa? ( using a simple posted bid setup and taking a nice prifot from the swap )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:10 - ID#212197)
Newt Gingrich Launches Public Attack on EURO
This is an interesting development.
Does Gingrich belong to the "Rockefeller-Republicans"? I assume he does.
As this is hardly a GOP issue, he must be the speaker on behalf of financial powers in the background, as far as this matter is concerned.

Why is he not more concerned about the FED System?

Alberich the Dwarf

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:11 - ID#26793)
Trouble in Emuland?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:12 - ID#324266)
Hedgehog re your 6:48
Circumstances in Japan appear to be approaching the ludicrous. Are they to cut rates further and pay us to borrow their yen? Could, or would, any institution attempt to operate using negative interest rates? What a fascinating circus!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:23 - ID#26793)
My own opinion of Gingrich is that he is not a Rockefeller Republican. He is a history professor who has an idealized view of politics and is not a good practical politician. He probably could best be described as a "Gingrich Republican". His sources of funding may require that he speak on behalf of bankers from time to time.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:27 - ID#228100)
"Problems" in Japan?
Everyone recognizes that there are some problems with the Japanese economy. Will someone go out on a limb and speculate what the future holds for Japan in the next year or so.

If there was going to be a rush into PMs ( by the Japanese ) , you would think that a trend would have already started. If that were going to happen, why hasnt it started already?

Perhaps the Japanese dont have all of the problems that they would like us to believe. Maybe theyre exaggerating their problems, so that they dont have to buy more orange juice and lumber ( from the USA ) when we complain about the balance of payments.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:29 - ID#410114)
Date: Mon Apr 20 1998 05:54
Fred ( @Vienna ) _

Fred, I expect that the poster Another, was hoping for some kind of news out of the G-7. If there was such a release, he could imply through his posts that he had prior knowledge of this.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:35 - ID#26793)
FLASH! Moodys downgrades Japan sovereign rating from "stable" to "negative" (buried in this post!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:37 - ID#288369)
@Old Gold....10>20>30,000 Dow......
There is this egotistical oil marauder here, "Dr." Bill Talley, reminds me of an oilman in Jimmy Carter drag, who predicted crude oil would go to $250./bbl back in the early eighties. He made his living by "mismanaging" oil production assets that had been seized by the FDIC and banks and then "placing" the assets with friends. A real professional blood sucker and such.

His firm, the RAM group, published a 1000 page study that "proved" oil would go to $250. by the year 1990 and sold the book to oil companies, execs and banks for $20,000 a copy. Kinda' reminds me of this Dow bullshit floating around today. Anyway, I think he mows yards now.

Speaking of sweating, I must go to the office to pump oil to give it away. GO GOLDBUGS!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:40 - ID#284255)
Europe on a roll - the top will be here soon.
Greece up 4.67%
Germany up 3.29%
Finland up 2.81%

I find it ironic that we have over supply in computers and parts,
And not enough companies working on their Y2K fixes.
In a years time there won't be enough computers and parts,
To fill demand as many will replace rather than repair.
There will be a rush to replace in the last few days,
Of this millenium that will be unfillable.

Probably be the same for generators.
But not for Aurators ( :-}}}

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:46 - ID#412172)
Mike Sheller
I will make this short, as I just saw Donald's "Flash". BTW Donald, you are great!
Mike, it is time to get off the couch and get combat ready. We are at that time of life when as much as the inertia hurts, it is high time to get back in shape. This may not guarantee survival against battle hardened troops ( BTW how many are still enlisted? in an armory near you? but may add years to our lives as we watch the DOW keep going up until JUST BEFORE we retire:- ) ) In any case, it sure is a wonder to me how much more uphill things have gotten since 20 years or so ago!
BTW, fired a .458 Winchester Mag, elephant gun you know, OUCH! And that is not quite half way to a .50 in power! Might be better to let the "mob" beat on your shoulder with golf clubs or ball bats:- ) )
Peace is better!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:48 - ID#284255)
This will be coming to a city near you soon - civil emergency planning
The spectre of a millennium bug meltdown has prompted civil defence authorities to prepare for a national emergency, while the business world ponders how to "work around" a breakdown in essential services.

Director-general of the Commonwealth's Emergency Management Australia ( EMA ) , Alan Hodges, last week acknowledged the need to "ensure the safety of Australians on January 1, 2000" and said the National Emergency Management Committee had raised the issue with the States and Territories. Commonwealth Bank Australia millennium program director, Mr Ken Pritchard, said the bank has begun contingency planning and would reassess all business unit risk in the light of the year 2000 problem.

"The technology aspect is fixable. The external threat is less apparent. We do have some issues with the utility suppliers. Dealing with these is a key part of our strategy," Mr Pritchard said.

"People have to realise this [the year 2000 problem] can actually stop things from happening,"

The NSW Auditor-General, Tony Harris, said concern over suppliers had prompted one State agency to sound the alarm.

"We are examining the capacity of key agencies to continue to provide services and one of these agencies has indicated it is not in a position to provide an assurance," Mr Harris said.

but there are no guarantees that even overhauled computer systems will be immune. Where they are networked to a non-compliant system, or linked to a device with an embedded controller which does not recognise 00 as 2000, they too may fail -- potentially puncturing the flow of Australia's essential services.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 09:57 - ID#341189)
@Donald, The Moody's move wasn't a rating downgrade, it was a warning- here's the original story

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:00 - ID#358318)
Do you feel lucky, Bulls?
Stock trader Relay Chat 4/20/98:

ski: this guy on CNBC has been a bear since 1996. 20% stocks
NVESTS: all the old geezers are bears.
stocker: SKI bear since than '86 what a moron
stocker: bears should rethink their lives
ski: Why is he getting air time?!
stocker: affirmative action

So, this is the bull mentality. How would Harry Callaghan deal with that?

''I know what you're thinking -- it is really "different this time"? And have the long wave bull and bear cycles really ended? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitment, I've kinda lost track, myself. But being this here coming is a .44 Bear Market, the most powerful bear market in the world, and would blow your head clean off. You've got to ask youself one question: do I feel lucky? Well, do ya...Bull?''

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:05 - ID#286230)
Trinovant The DOW won't go up forever. But I think the move from here to over 9900 is about the surest bet I have ever seen---without the need for any support other than the fascinating round number--10 000. After that who knows--not me.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:12 - ID#317193)
The stock markets throughout the world are showing way to many ups and downs. Emotions are controlling investment decisions. That is why I got ot of the Dow/Nas. in January ( darn-a little to early ) . Panic is just another emotion. Today's investors have never faced loss of capital. This spells PANIC when the emotions turn. Gold seems like it's just waiting for it's time. Well, if it won't go down it will go up. JOKE:
Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients for them to operate on:

The first surgeon says: "Accountants are the best to operate on because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered."

The second responds: "Try electricians! Everything inside them is color coded."

The third surgeon says: "No, librarians are the best. Everything inside them is in alphabetical order.".
The fourth surgeon intercedes: "I like construction workers... they always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end and when it takes longer than you expect."

To which the fifth surgeon says: "You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest. There's no guts, no heart, no spine and their head and butt are interchangeable."

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:15 - ID#31868)
Tyoung - priceless,
gulp, here's to ya, priceless, one more time, gulp...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:17 - ID#266105)

Year2000 ( "Problems" in Japan? ) ID#228100:
Copyright  1998 Year2000/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Everyone recognizes that there are some problems with the Japanese economy. Will someone go out on a limb and speculate what the future holds for Japan in the next year or so.


Ok. Japan will go more deeply into debt at an accelerating
rate while accumulating mounting off-budget obligations and
liabilities which are institutionalized and largely, at root,
a result of aging demographic structures, said structures
and mounting debt and issuance of debt at all levels of
government identical to its brethren and cisterns the
western industrialized 27-nation OECD world over. For
that, I and my progeny and deeply indebted and much
obliged for generations. Thank you.


ps: When out on a limb don't forget the chainsaw.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:21 - ID#317193)
Thank you. BTW some good posting this weekend. Interesting trying to figure out Mr. A's motivation. Not at all clear in my mind as of yet. Unique,YES? Tom

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:29 - ID#284255)
Soon to be coming to the Western World?
Malaysian brokers face sea of troubles

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:35 - ID#284255)
Funds await word on euro reserves
Gold fund managers are anxiously waiting on a handful of bankers in Europe
Dollar expected to hold ground as eyes focus on BOJ moves
The US dollar will probably be little changed this week as investors watch for signs of whether the Bank of Japan will sell the dollar to boost the yen, which has slumped on concern Japan will slide into recession.
New IMF architecture faces early design test
Makers of economic policy and their advisers last week descended on Washington to create at the spring meetings of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank what they described as the "new international architecture".
Many of the articles on this site relate to negative sentiment for Asia.
Very pesimistic and glomy.

Spud Master
(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:42 - ID#273112)
Outstanding humor! I laughed liked hell & threw two near miss darts at the grainy xeroxes of FDR and Lenin taped on the lab dart board.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:46 - ID#284255)
Time to buy a new computer?
Users beware - the hour of millennium mayhem approaches

His advice was rather than trying to find and then fix any problems, users should simply replace everything with newer Y2K-compliant equipment.

He said: "Wait until the middle of next year, when everybody is putting 'Year 2000 Ready' stickers on their products, and then upgrade."

Imagine December 1999 when all the shops have run out of Y2K compliant PC's.
And 30% of small businesses still haven't upgraded.

It's called demand.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:51 - ID#153102)
The USG has lost the international War on Gold. See my a.m. post for details.

If you have never been in custody, then, if you have a poor imagination, you ought to get yourself arrested for something. Because, when you are in custody, you are totally dependant on the custodian. For food, light, warmth, shelter, safety. When government has all the guns, the real guns, we will be in custody. So, get a shotgun for the house if you wish. It's not a bad idea. But also get a high power rifle. It's a civic duty. As they say, the best way to avoid a war is to always be prepared for one. The Swiss have been free since 1251 and every household has a military weapon. The USG has no charter to disarm the citizens and that it seems intent on doing so is the very worst possible portent.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:52 - ID#284255)
Cost of finance-sector bailouts double forecasts, Barclays warns
Governments have severely underestimated the cost of bailing out Asia's crippled financial systems, and the true level of damage could be double present forecasts, Barclays Capital, the debt markets arm of Britain's Barclays Bank, warns in a report today.
Region's crisis pushes Asian investors down Britain's top-1,000 wealth chart
The Asian economic crisis has taken its toll on some of Britain's richest people, as it has on companies that have in the past profited from the region.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:53 - ID#26793)
I went back to my own post of April 3rd at 7:34 and found it also. It is no longer available but it was buried in there too; just one line. I must have missed it. Has not been noticed by any of the mainstream news people apparently.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 10:56 - ID#26793)
Got your e.mail. I wonder how many of those shiny new computers sitting on the shelves have Y2K problems?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:00 - ID#263379)
Stan Weinstein is now bullish on GOLD!
To all, Stan Weinstein the stock market guru of the Professional Tape Reader has announced that he is bullish on Gold. A rare call! His is not only bullish, but has made a wealth of gold stock recommendations.

Statement on gold: "both the short term and long term trends are favorable as the June contract now closed above the key 311 level and has completed a MAJOR base formation".

Recommendations include:

Battle Mountain Gold
Homestake Mining
Agnico Eagle Mines
Newmont Gold
Newmont Mining
FSAGX - Fidelity Select American Gold fund

He has listed as a favored sector, the Gold and Precious Metals Mining group and Metals Mining in general.

He is also recommending Boston Beer. I guess a few beers before buying!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:01 - ID#341189)
I somehow thought you were the one that originally posted it. Don't you hate it when that happens? I "discover" things all the time that I knew before. The media are still in denial over everything in Asia. It doesn't fit our Happy Days Zeitgeist.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:03 - ID#398105)


The focus of KITCO is the preference of GOLD over the current markets, principally the USA market.

By virtue of the Bank of Japan equity holding 0.5% gold and US$300 billion in US Bonds does indeed tell a tale. Unless the Japanese can stimulate their economy now and maintain it for 6 to 12 months, they will indeed have a recession. The issue then is how do they get out of it - via GOLD ? If so, the US has a recession, the issue is then again GOLD !

A potential DOUBLE WHAMMIE for GOLD, but at a cost.

The Japanese and Chinese have put too much focus on buying the US National Debt via US BONDS - it is now becoming clear that from their own local perspective, and as time progresses, they must resolve their problem - Chickens always come home to roost !

If you cannot face the music, you will never lead the band ?!

In the case of the Japanese politicians, they have to lead the band.

As the young man at a dance asked - "May I have the last dance?"
"You've just had it", was the reply.

Och aye the noooooooooooooooooo.............

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:03 - ID#266105)
Proper Accounting Reveals a Federal Budget Still Deep in the Red

Such ominous budget projections should cause you to reconsider today's small budget victories. Indeed,
they call the victories themselves into question. Applying proper accounting methods to the federal
balance sheet reveals a budget that is still deep in the red -- and that won't come anywhere near
balance at any foreseeable future date.

As you are aware, the official budget balance includes Social Security's current trust-fund surplus.
Senator Moynihan reminds us that this surplus is supposed to be saved to help prefund the Baby
Boom's retirement -- and denounces double-counting it as "thievery." Exclude it from the calculations,
and, according to the Congressional Budget Office, this year's deficit rises by $100 billion.

But that isn't all. Even if Social Security's surpluses were saved, it would defray only a tiny fraction of
the mountain of unfunded benefit liabilities the federal government has accumulated -- a lien against
tomorrow's taxpayers now totaling at least $15 trillion. Were the federal budget to account for its
unfunded Social Security liability the way federal law requires private corporations to account for their
pension liabilities, this year's deficit would instantly rise by over $500 billion. And Social Security, of
course, isn't the only benefit program that obligates future taxpayers. Account honestly for the
unfunded liabilities of Medicare and federal civil service and military pensions as well, and this year's
deficit would rise by over $1 trillion.

In short, we aren't even close to paying our own way. Once the books are examined up close, the
coming decade of surpluses turns out to be a mirage.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:09 - ID#238295)
LIBERTY: Thanks for the Stan Weinstein update!

Looks like the dogs of 10:00 AM did not have much bite this morning. Perhaps from now on their bark will be worse than their bite.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:11 - ID#26793)
Rubin wants to take job of Fed Chairman Greenspan. Scroll down.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:13 - ID#31868)
TYoung, Hmmmmmmmmmm, in response to the first, Hmmmmmmmm,
my posts are enriched and appear better than they truly are because of the company here at Kitco. However, I appreciate the sentiments, duly noted...gulp, to ya.

As to the A entity...Hmmmmmmmmm, clarification of motive is an important aspect...I believe it was STUDIO_R, we decided the information should stand on its own merit, irrespective of that which penned, or keystroked it.

Validation is bourne out of the exact nature of the thoughts. Sorta like the why ask why thing...what matters more, the information, the author or the intent?

I have to go for a little bit, I am wrestling Piglet, this is the rubber match...he cheated the last time, ah, nah, it was a clean leg lock and takedown...feisty little fellow!!!!!!!

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:15 - ID#24135)
Good Results at Harmony
For All Harmony buffs.
Their earnings were out today. I havnt seen but
friend who attended meeting told me about them. They
made about 0.57 Rand/share for the quarter after
capex. Annually, this is 2.28 Rand/share. At a 10/1
PE this would say 23 rand which is about where the
share price is.
The results will be in tomorrow's business day.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:17 - ID#26793)
Japan dockworkers likely to refuse to unload Australian ships.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:24 - ID#284255)
You would want to make sure before you buy.
I read a report put out by the Gartner Group who tested numerous computers off the shelf and found a high percentage of Y2K failures.

Most all PC's - IBM clones all have bugs.
Not all, but all who use Microsoft software.

And most all IBM clones on the shelves these days come fitted with a Microsoft O/S which is not Y2K safe.
I think it is heineous that Microsoft can sell it's products knowing that they are not Y2K proof.

Maybe that's his plan; to resell to all the world his new Y2K proof O/S.
In one foul swoop, he retools the computers of the world
Making a fortune as the sheep flock to his fold.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:24 - ID#339274)
FWIW ,stop change stop 83.5 to 84.2

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:25 - ID#24135)
Perceptions..light the corners of my mind
To All
Its all perception .. Farfel is right about that.
Why.. if what is going on with the dockworkers in
Australia was happening HERE .. can you imagine the
press coverage ??? and the spin on the stories??

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:26 - ID#31868)
poor tents collapse under the sheer weight of their own stupidity...away to battle piglet...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:28 - ID#324266)
John Disney re your 1:21
First hand information of any kind about RSA is appreciated! RSA is where the gold is and I think that it will continue to flow. The baby shooting was reported in the Boston Globe on Sunday as a racial attack, without any context as to what happened. The story had a foolish ring to it because of what was left out ( apparently the truth ) .

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:33 - ID#347235)
Good mornin every body!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:38 - ID#398105)
John "MOZEL" Wayne..................that's the spirit.......

God Save the Queen..............

Och aye the noooooooooooooooo...................

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:41 - ID#266105)
@granny in the basement

Social Security may have an uncertain future in the United States -- President Clintons announcement that he wants to use the budget surplus to save the program notwithstanding -- but Europes pension programs are on even shakier ground. Monetary union and high unemployment will grab most of the economic headlines in Western Europe during 1998, but no economic issue facing the European Union today is more important than the crisis in public pay-as-you-go pension systems. EU leaders are fearful of the political repercussions of dismantling welfare states that are collapsing under their own weight and have thus merely tinkered with those systems, enacting cosmetic reforms here and there while keeping their basic structure intact.

The reforms, however, will not prevent those systems from going bankrupt. In 1996 the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development estimated that the net present value of future social security commitments as a percentage of gross domestic product amounted to at least two and a half times the size of GDP in 9 of 13 EU countries ( figures were not available for Luxembourg and Greece ) , and the net present value of the unfunded pension liability exceeded 100 percent of GDP in 6 of those 13 EU countries.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:41 - ID#24135)
The chicken salt and maid standard
For Robnoel ..
I think you said something about getting
a maid in Capetown 10 years ago for 10 $/month.
You are wrong on that because I was here 10
years ago and a maid was 300 Rand/month and the
rand was about 2.5... that makes $120/m.
Now I have a better maid for 500 rand/mo and the
rand is 5 so 100$/mo. Maybe in Zim things were
like that 10 years ago .. not here .. I think
in $ terms maids had stayed constant for 10 years at
In Turkey from 1974 to 1979 I had a houseboy.
He cost 100$/month the whole time I was there.
Annual raises were offset by decline in the Lira.
In 1973 there were 13 lira to the $... Now dont
know .. 80,000 ??? some really big number anyway.
I could look it up.
Its kind of like Einstein's law of relativity
.... from where ever Im standing servants cost
100 $ per month and the exchange rate adjusts
accordingly... Thats Disney's law of cheap servants.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:45 - ID#398105)
What is the proportion of Americans...............

......who have a charisma bypass ?

John "MOZEL" Wayne... do not adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.


Och aye the nooooooooooooooooo.....................

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:46 - ID#57232)
Stability of Markets, Harry Dent's DOW 20,000 plus by 2010
All: I think we underestimate the strength of the US markets -- and the craziness of investors - either baby boomers with their tax free retirement accounts pouring the money in, or foreign investors trying to escape less stable markets. The world derivatives growth also worries me, as it is a sign of currency risk instability, and increased derivative exposure increases the risk of severe loss if the market twitches again -- and all of those risk calculations become irrelevent.

Harry Dent: I have several of Harry Dent's books, and his words should be taken seriously about two major points. First, one reason the US markets/economy is strong is because we have alot of baby boomers, and Japnan does not. For example, if you just plot the baby boomer spending curve ( maximum at agre 45, then down ) , you do get DOW 20,000 plus by 2010 or so. At this point the baby boomers start to retire in a big way, and Harry predicts a depression at this time. So -- Harry Dent is a futurist, but he does not predict perpetual nirvana either ( unlike other perpetural market Bulls we know ) . Secondly, Harry Dent uses the 'S Curve' extensively to describe the economic growth of new technologies -- such as the internet trading, for example. Those of you who have not read about 'S Curves' should do so, because the logic of an innovation phase, growth phase and plateau phase seems irrefutable. Allows you to do very well in the markets, a la Warren Buffett, or that fellow who founded the Fidelity Magellan fund. These 'value investors' know how to buy into the bottom of the S phase of a new technology/process and maket a fortune. Notice how the internet stocks just took off?

What is my take on all of this? Harry Dent oversimplifies by focusing on population growth/employee productivity as the only force behind the markets and economy. For example, he describes inflation as only being due to 'new untrained workers coming on line'. Nothing about monetary inflation. So -- what he says is very important, is not part of mainstream economics -- but is not the whole answer.

My conclusion is that the baby boomers are a strong supporting factor in our economy, and I do not wish to be actively invested in the markets when they retire -- big time trouble then! However, this is only part of the economic scenario, and other negative factors might override, and pull the US markets down long before 2010. Interesting reading, nonetheless, and a pretty good argument for a fairly strong US market until y2k.

Even with a continued US bull market, Gold will do well. Around 2010, gold will probably be in the stratosphere.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:47 - ID#31868)
All, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, Piglet won, hooves down, no
contest, I put up a valiant effort, there is no fescue covering the yards in three neighborhoods, Hmmmmmmmmmmm, beaten, soundly...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:49 - ID#317193)
Broker's Prayer
Oh God thank you for the fund inflows from all the retiremnt accounts. The commissions have been grand. One more request Our Lord, seems the 125% home equity loans have topped out and with retirement funds not coming in anymore until December, could you get the Japanese to send money to invest and please tell the Japanese Government not to sell all those treasuries ( and China too ) . Hope there is no "conspiracy" between Japan and China to sell all those bonds at one time to finance their internal projects and jetison the dollar. You know America is the worlds greatest economy and you would never allow those orientals to profit from their own savings. Thanks again God, things are great and I'm sure they always will be. It's different this time-right. AMEN Tom

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:53 - ID#228100)
Sharefin - Y2K Issues
There wont be any major Y2K problems with PCs. At worst, every time you restart a PC, youll have to re-enter the current date and time.

Due to liability issues, no companies will place Year 2000 Ready stickers on their products. Sure, the hardware and operating system may be okay, but youll still have some idiot that will sue because their payroll software from 1983 doesnt work.

The MAJOR problems are in the financial systems. Companies wont be able to issue invoices, issue checks, pay their employees, calculate depreciation, and issue profit/loss statements. Most companies havent yet decided whether to test, fix or replace their financial systems. It usually requires SEVERAL YEARS to plan and execute a major financial system overhaul.

Other major problems are in the network hardware/software ( routers, servers, other LAN components ) . For example, your local grocery store depends on at least 100 different software/hardware components to manage their inventory and cash.

It is amazing that many huge corporations STILL do not have an inventory of all the software and equipment that needs to be TESTED!! Examples include a chemical company based in Wilmington... a soft drink company in Atlanta...

I hope the mining and PM industry gets a handle on this issue!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:53 - ID#57232)
Windows 95 and Y2K
All: Just upgraded my Windows 95 to be y2k compliant. Problem with the operating system, and file manager. I think it was mostly with file copying or updating. Got these when at home by going to the Microsoft web site.
Apparently there is a list of fairly recent software packages that Microsoft just discovered is Y2K compliant. Fixes should be easy, though.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:54 - ID#57232)
Sorry -- several recent programs that Microsoft discovered were
not Y2K compliant.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:54 - ID#24135)
Shooting on the farm
For forklift
The guy who shot the lady with the
baby on her back was drunk and is no
doubt an idiot. Im sure he is some kind
of racist. But he didnt even know the
baby was on the woman's back. White
reaction to Mandela's visit to the spot
to make as big a deal as possible out
of it is bad .. in the 460 odd attcks
on white and colored farmers by Blacks,
Mandela never once visited one of the
farms to offer condolences. White or
colored kids were killed in those attacks

(Mon Apr 20 1998 11:56 - ID#253418)
When does it start to effect gold??
VEry important post just below on the unfunded pension liabilities in the socialist states of Europe. This has got to be the time economic time bomb of the irst part of the next century.

Sam Weinstein ( sp? ) turns bullish on gold!!! Guess we can use all the good company we can et as the market seems to be in idle awaiting the percentage reserves the Euro will have in gold. As has been warned here in days past the market seems to be setting up for a fall when the announcement is made that the backing will be less than 30% advertised by the talking heads on CNBC. The false break when the announcement is made that the backing ewill only be 15% will be the turning point, and that's when all these things we envision wrong with the economic order will start effecting gold and maybe its weak sister silver.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:04 - ID#57232)
Unfunded liabilities
jims: We have a ticking time bomb in the US with unfunded liabilities beginning to haunt us around 2010 or so. But -- the European situation is much worse with greater liabilities right now, and less baby boomers to subsidise the shortfall. It will be interesting to see how the Europeans deal with this problem when they also supposedly are going to launch a strong Euro at the same time! They will need a little help from Houdini, or David Copperfield, I think.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:04 - ID#31868)
Tyoung, AMEN an oxymoron,
I mean a singular followed by a plural, sam!!!!!, spell check!!!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:05 - ID#342282)
Vronsky re website
My ISP is working on email. If not fixed in a couple of days, I'll change ISP. I just got your email. Can receive, but not send. Email me your phone or use mine-- 704 433 6473. Thanx Charlie

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:05 - ID#324266)
John Disney
The same double standard in reporting violence goes on here in the northease USA. Is Harmony the only RSA gold operation to refine its own ore?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:07 - ID#31868)
Nelson Mandela is a murderer, plain and he is eating the caviar...the world loves lies...RSA has better, much better than him, you and I know it...far greater than he could ever be...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:11 - ID#258427)
cHAS...i took a look at Brushy Mountain..(BCMD)
That stock is selling for 1/2 ... has been as high as ( almost ) 40......My my...look at the upside potential!! ... put a bid in for some just under the market..we'll see!! Thanks for the tip!!

Aragorn III
(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:17 - ID#212323)
Thank you for noticing my occasional posts. At times I feel my effort is wasted and reconsider any urge to comment.

I have read over the product of this weekend and would like to congratulate you for surviving one complete cycle of the metronome. This side...that side...deep side...dark side...

Fair winds, friend.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:21 - ID#317193)
tolerant1-I can't take it anymore
Sloth, pure and simple. All right, I'll use the word processor from now on. Point made. Got to get working. Tom Bbl

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:22 - ID#410198)
John Disney,with all due respect(which means we agree to disagree) you miss my point,I know why you
enjoying a high standard of living in your situation,your money and I'am sure investments are in US dollars or other,when I lived in SA the Rand and Dollar were on parity,if you had your money in Rands since then you would be screaming bloody murder,the standard of living prior to US sanctions was higher than that of the US ( trust me ) the fact you are dizzy about SA is simply because you have escaped the devastation of falling currences,my brother lives in Durban still what you say and what he says are nite and with it SA is now ,compared to the late 70's,a third world country,even my daughter who lives in CT says so and she is only 21

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:23 - ID#342282)
BILLD re Brush Creek (BCMD)
I'm calling them in a bit for clarification on the info they sent. It appears a damn good bet. Will let you know later. Charlie

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:23 - ID#253418)
Silver breaking
Silver just broke to new lows./
Look out below
$5.85 test again???

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:25 - ID#339274)
FWIW Head and shoulder hourly formation on the
downside pointing to support 79.5/80

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:26 - ID#347235)
If they are close enough for 9 MM pistols best bet is 12 GA Streetsweeper made in SA a few years back 12 round OO Buck better
than 10 15 rounds of 9MM in a crowd. Best to have 3 or more so someone can reload for you.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:27 - ID#57232)
Logging off for a time
Aragorn III: I also notice your insightful posts, and hope you continue doing so. What makes this site so great is the diversity of opinion. At times, one person tends dominate the scene with one opinion, and then we all suffer. I thought this weekend was pretty interesting, even if more potential problems were presented than investment timing solutions.

I am eagerly awaiting the 'smoke and mirrors' approach with the Euro launch, and the resurrection of gold as a reserve currency. I look forward to an evolutionary change, not a catastrophic one, which would be bad for everyone, gold bugs included.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:29 - ID#347235)
Why is everyone so bloodthirsty today? I had enough of that in VEET
NAM,Dominican Republic.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:37 - ID#57232)
Beware that sudden drop in gold! RJ - where are you?
All: Please remember that if we have another testing of our gold bullion lows, it may be due to a financial crisis somewhere. I think it could make sense to determine whether there is a major financial crisis somewhere before expending all of your powder. My intuitive guess is that another low of $280/oz should be considered as a buying opportunity, regardless of the cause. RJ -- Have the precious metals floor traders started buying gold with both hands yet? My guess is not yet. An I right?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:41 - ID#31868)
Without question, one of the most insightful minds at Kitco, gulp, one more time, gulp to ya. And thank you for the kind thought that fills my sails...................................

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:42 - ID#24135)
Sorry about your brother in Durban
For Robnoel
Durban and Capetown ARE night and Day. I
would not live there under any circumstances.
Nor anywhere but the Western Cape.. Also
it's very tough on native born South Africans
BUT many professionals return from places like
LONDON to work here...
"Third world Country" is a catch phrase and
a VERY subjective one at that. The last time
I had experience with your daughter's judgements
on things was in the Rand -pound exchange rate
caper and she did not score too well as I recall.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:44 - ID#324266)
JSE All Gold Index up 0.53% to 941.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:51 - ID#31868)
Durban is closer to better surfing by far...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 12:58 - ID#342282)
The man is out till tomorrow, at mining convention in toronto. Will let you know

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:01 - ID#410198)
tolerent1/John Disney,surfing in CT is great water is very very cold,John that was a low blow
no question CT is different,you also fail to mention two tier Rand,not many South Africans outside of lawyers who could protect themselves outside of the country,let me rephrase third world statement if it makes you feel better,the standard of living in SA has fallen 50% since the 70"s....the price of Gold has gone from R500.00 to R2000.00 explain that,and don't nit pick that today it is R1550.00

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:02 - ID#153102)
@Consequences of Retreat
When you consider that the USG War on Gold has been progressing from success to success since Lincoln, accelerating with FDR, and all out since Nixon, its defeat is a momentous development. The consequences will also be momentous.

There may very well be a speculative attack to depress POG in the near term. Because there are Banks bet on POG. But the die is cast.

The US$ is going to lose its status as reserve currency. It is not a replacement for gold as a deposit to guarantee performance of settlement obligations. It cannot eliminate settlement risk. Nor can derivatives contracts. Nor can the martial law currency swap contracts of English lawyers. The burning question is how much gold currency in it would be required for the EMU to be used as a settlement currency. Any amount will be more than that of the US$, which fatally disconnected itself from gold. It is the gold in the EMU and not the EMU itself which is significant. In the end the EMU may be all gold for settlement purposes, but some percentage of gold against paper for use in Europe.

What will be affected immediately is trade over oceans. The Asians can trade with America on the greenback if they wish, but if they want international settlement by a neutral party, the trading partners are going to have to have gold. The Chinese 167 tons of gold now makes sense. There is guarantee for a lot of trade in 167 tons of gold and that is a healthy sign for the future. The Japanese are stranded between Gold and the greenback. The demise of their ambition to make the yen into a reserve currency is a bitter pill to swallow. Once again a Japanese foray onto the world stage has ended in disappointment and disaster. The samurai of MOF, MITI, and the kaeratsu have been turned back like the task force at Midway. Once again the Japanese self-image has not been validated by events or by foreigners. One can only hope they will adjust to the reality that the Sun that also rises, also sets.

The United States still has trading partners tied to the greenback in the Americas. They are in a similar predicament as the Japanese. But trade over oceans, because it is so far and difficult, is also the most essential. And that fact will tell over time.

In 1776 every American had the same right as any King to have and use real wealth, gold and land, with absolute, allodial title. The cabal of bankers, lawyers, and government has stolen that right. Make your family, friends, and neighbors aware. Demand public explanations of politicians as to why the Constitutional provision that "No State shall... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt" is violated by federal and State collusion. The true answer is federal bankruptcy. Social Security and all the fraudulent "programs" funded on future promises are to cover up that fact and turn people's attention to benefits and away from law. So long as we have a bankrupt federal government, we have a government that may give lip service to the Constitution to keep up the pretense of legality, but which is not bound by it. The sooner the mantle of legitimacy is stripped from the Public Pretenders in the federal government, the better our chances to restore domestic tranquillity peacefully. So long as the Federal Reserve System is there, the bankrupt has a captive source of unlimited credit on future generations. So long as Bar attorneys, officers of the Judicial Branch, can serve in government, power in it will not be divided into three branches, but will continue to combine into one despotic whole. A House in the hands of a bankrupt cannot stand.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:04 - ID#254247)

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:05 - ID#342282)
A. Goose PKZIP
Gone last week. I'm working on it. Appears to be a whale of a site. Thanx, I'll be back

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:10 - ID#408236)
@Farfel re your 3:11 post. I think it is a distinct possibility that if gold was
to explode to its real value of $US60000 then a total world financial system meltdown could occur. Gold might eventually reach the $30 000
per oz price needed to cover all the paper out there. If this did happen, I think there is a real risk that the governments of gold-producing countries might nationalize mines. If gold does equal real money, then only government should be allowed to print ( mine ) it. At least that would be the likely view of most governments today.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:10 - ID#288369)
@mozel....don't quarrel with me.....or with what I will now say........
I believe you are Patrick Henry, and I can't believe we Kitcoites can visit with him/you. Good day, sir.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:12 - ID#266105)
@the public interest


FISCAL YEAR 1988 $214,145,028,847.73
FISCAL YEAR 1989 $240,863,231,535.71
FISCAL YEAR 1990 $264,852,544,615.90
FISCAL YEAR 1991 $286,021,921,181.04
FISCAL YEAR 1992 $292,361,073,070.74
FISCAL YEAR 1993 $292,502,219,484.25
FISCAL YEAR 1994 $296,277,764,246.26
FISCAL YEAR 1995 $332,413,555,030.62
FISCAL YEAR 1996 $343,955,076,695.15
FISCAL YEAR 1997 $355,795,834,214.66

Money as Debt

Consider the Feds narrowest definition of money,
M1, comprising currency, demand deposits at banks
and thrifts, and travelers checks. This covers
most, but not all, of what is commonly regarded as
transaction money, i.e. money that is widely
accepted in payment. It does not include credit
available from credit cards, money market mutual
funds, and certain interest-bearing checking
accounts. It also excludes near-money such as
short term debt securities.

What may surprise many is the fact that all such
money is a form of debt. For every dollar in
existence, there is both a creditor and a debtor.
Even the dollar bill in your wallet, though an asset
to you, is a liability of the Federal Reserve Bank.
And behind all currency issued by the Fed are
equal-valued assets in its own portfolio in the form
of U.S. Treasury debt.

Now if there is a debtor as well as a creditor for
every dollar, it is not at all obvious that the amount
of money, however defined, can be increased at the
will of the banking system. Borrowers must be
willing to accept the obligation that comes with the
loan, namely interest charges and return of
principal on a specific date.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:14 - ID#31868)
robnoel_A - Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
What other kind of blow is there? Just curious, like George.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:16 - ID#342282)
Organic Farming
A lot of conversation last week about organic farms and gardens. If you're really interested, Check Acres USA- 800 355 5313. Lots of experience, large farms and small and plenty of real info. Professionals- wide and deep.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:17 - ID#288369)
@vronsky.....Outta' Sight! (James Brown)...........
Your SA/NA/Physical "return on investment" chart is mighty useful. Thanks.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:19 - ID#26669)
JTF Dow $20,000 by 2010 isn't unreasonable!
I invite you to call up your computer's calculator function and multiply the present Dow price by the constant 1.07 ( for 7% per year price increase ) then iterate once per year for the years until 2010. You come up with a number which exceeds $20,000 unless by some chance today's dow has fallen dramatically since I looked. IMHO

Then you might do the same iteration with a fixed income fund which draws 5%. For $10,000 deposited last Dec 31 the answer is over $18,000 by Dec 31, 2010. IMHO

So, not to give anyone else any advice about the subject, but for me gold related investments are part of a balanced portfolio. IMHO

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:21 - ID#410198)
tolerent1,anyone tell you,your are a sick puppy... poor George,o for the old days when blow meant
blow,gay was happy,and a joint was a nasty place : )

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:26 - ID#24135)
Low blows are my specialty
Sorry Rob .. You brought your
daughter into the discussion to gain
advantage with a good looking girl.
I just aint that much of a gent ...
We went through the 500 to 1500 rand
gold price before but I think you
ignored what I said .. The decline
in RSA standard of living was caused
by sanctions,a profligate nat
government, Maintaining order in the
country BUT mainly by the war in Angola
which everybody ( including you ) seems to
have forgotten.
Wars are very expensive..even if you
win them.
You cant really hang the decline in
living standards on the fact that Blacks
live here. They lived here when the standard
was good too.
You were wise to leave ZIM I think .. But
I understand the White farmers that stayed are
doing pretty well ( if they have good nerves ) .

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:29 - ID#31868)
my Mother swears up and down ( not a pretty sight ) she gave birth to an anomaly...Yossarian can't swim, be back in a moment, have to inflate his raft, no smarts remarks pal.

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:31 - ID#24135)
Madiba is a jerk in my opinion
For tolerant1
Yeah .. big nellie is not my favorite
guy. But Clinton has probably killed a few
people too to gain power.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:32 - ID#31868)
robnoel_A - John Disney_A
Tomorrows word, ubiquitous

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:35 - ID#31868)
JohnDisney_A - Sir,
The Coward Erect is a dirtbag, as my 7 year old nephew says, "Uncle Kevan says the man has no honor and that's good enough for me."

When I grow up I want to be my nephew, I love his passion for the TRUTH!

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:36 - ID#24135)
Gold refinery
For Forklift
Yes harmony is the only one . Others
use the big refinery that the reserve
bank owns ( I think the own it .. meaning
the banks )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:39 - ID#288369)
@Someone said some silly somethin'...signafyin' sertain salient sages....
here were too old too think know, that their life experiences were "putting the blinders" on their ability to have an open-mind or to produce creative rationale...well, this pisses me all over and has since the moment I read it. I can only hope that these years ahead will enrich me in the exact same manner that my previous forty nine have. I can only look UP to those who have acquired more years than myself....and I look forward to my acquisition of a greater mind age. Now, that's off my desk. Thank you.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:41 - ID#230244)
GOLD AT 13.10 BACK OVER $308.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:41 - ID#410198)
John Disney, Forgot the war in Angola....I was in that bloody war,spent many months on the border ,
fighting SA new best buddys the Cubans,yes my friend I was in the military in South Africa,also on Rhodesian,Botswana borders,there we were fighting SA's other good buddys the Russians, Chinese,North Korens.....hope you understand where I come from

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:42 - ID#373403)
Gold as money at $30,000/oz
Everyone assumes that the government would confiscate gold at that point in order to issue gold certificates and retain control over money. This is wrong. If in fact money were backed by gold then the government would be obligated to exchange between it and paper.

The political wind at that point will be both anger and distrust with the government. It will either be at the point when governments print with wild abandon ( more than today: ) ) and burn the people or when a credit contraction occurs and people will likewise lose their love for paper and government borrowing.

When there is a gold standard, it will be because the people have taken back their government.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:45 - ID#410198)
tolerent1,darn my dictionary says;ubiquitous look up BIG BROTHER,can't seem to find that

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:50 - ID#266105)
@oddly burnt offerings

10 . Just cashed in Harmony for 100 % profit in
3 months .. deciding what to do next .. I hope it
rains like that on my parade a bit more .. rains MONEY
that is.


Harmony up 8.6%. Now that's what I call selfless
self-sacrifice. Whadda guy.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:52 - ID#31868)
next 20,000ft night drop over Colorada, beers are on my tab fella...and I must say, I enjoyed our conversation that was a privilege...truly...

But only if you promise not to feed Sheller Fish and Chips!!! And remember not to arm him with tartar sauce...such is not for the feint hearted!!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:55 - ID#342282)
Themissinglink- coin
I understand you are working on a coin. If production becomes a problem, I have a caster and minter whos is reasonable. If you like, let me know and I'll post it to you

(Mon Apr 20 1998 13:57 - ID#286279)
Amen! ;- )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:04 - ID#373403)
What is a minter? I have a casting facility here but I am sure that a lot of volume will make me want to job the task out as I do mostly small production castings for one of a kind pieces.

I am investing the prototype right now.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:06 - ID#31868)
a man of few, but properly spelled words...gulp, a toast to ya...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:17 - ID#228100)
Microsoft - Y2K and other issues
Windows 98 crashed during a demo by Bill Gates:

So all of Microsoft products will Y2K compliant "very soon", but they can't fix the bugs in a system that's going to ship in three weeks? Hmmmm....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:25 - ID#288140)
Thanks. I normally avoid imbibing before lunch, but what the heck. Back atcha! glug!

Aragorn III
(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:25 - ID#212323)
Essential element for TWO lengths of chain... (also TolerantUnity)
Linkman, I'm referring to you. You previously stated your design was inspired by part this, part that, and part Latvium. Latvium? What's Latvium, eh?
I ask because my blood flows with Latvia's finest, and I was curious if your comment was perhaps a typo. All things Latvian warrant my regard.

And regards again to you, TolerantOne. I shall remain a poster as long as you remain in the forest.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:32 - ID#57232)
Windows 98 Crashed in front of Bill Gates?
year 2000: How would it dare do that? I wonder, just how much code is in Windows 98? Nearly 175,000 Windows 98 beta testers, and it still crashes.

Might be a boatload of code -- and that one little y2k non-compliant byte from that Polish programmer consultant might get missed. What if someone installed an embedded y2k 'virus' in all of the Windows 98 software? Frightening thought -- one problem with most of the public users having the same vendor. No power failures or electromagnetic pulse needed. Anyone who doesn't like Bill Gates?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:41 - ID#31868)
All, sheesh, this Piglet fella is tough, woof!, the problem is not in the software,
it is in the Embedded Systems, is it me, or does anyone else share Ed and Jennifer's sense of humor, the chapter in their book covering this issue is CHAPTER 11, HELLO, HELLO, IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE!!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:45 - ID#57232)
Gold up and Dow up by 2010
223: Thanks for the response. I was afraid my comments about the baby boomers and 2010 would go ignored on this site. Talk about the DOW going up goes against the grain of many. But -- so far the US equities markets have defied gravity, and if what I suspect is happening they will continue to defy gravity for some time. The Oldman probably knows better than most of us whether to be bearish or bullish. Y2k +/- 6 months is probably the next critical time for the equity markets, barring any externally generated financial crises or a BC fiasco.

mozel is well spoken about the inevitable demise of the US dollar and the rise of the price of gold. However, the entire world uses the US dollar as its reserve currency, and a transition to another ( stronger ) currency requires that there be a substitute. Right now there is none, and until then there may be little to threaten the dollar's supremacy. But -- the tide will eventually shift.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:45 - ID#320376)
It's right on the tip of my brain...
I know something very important happened exactly 65 years ago today but I cannot think of it...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:47 - ID#31868)
They perfected rolling papers!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 14:51 - ID#238295)
gold stocks
Gold stock action mediocre at best today despite modest POG rebound. Still looks like we are headed lower short-term before the next major upmove begins.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:00 - ID#373403)
Aragorn III
Latvium I believe is the future currency on the television show Deep Space. It is a take off on Star Trek. My coin has a mythical/spiritual nature. It is all piercework design with no pictures. I deviated from the normal coin because this is meant to be jewelry more than coinage.

I will post a picture when I get it right.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:02 - ID#28861)
SSC Quarterly Results
They broke even

Ronald Jett__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:04 - ID#413119)
new report on SSC is at this address.....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:06 - ID#432298)
OLD GOLD (Gold Stocks)
I quite agree with you except that I believe that there will be a LONG wait before there is any upside potential. Gold is destined to continue its downward movement once again. Unless gold breaks out of its 200 day moving average and do so for at least a weeks trading, I am not convinced that we will see any upside movement in gold and gold mining stocks as well.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:07 - ID#36156)
themissinglink - That should be Latinum, not Latvium, right?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:12 - ID#342282)
Themissinglink re coins
I can't send email, but can receive. That's a fine website. A minter is a facility that can mint coins-diestamp. This one can also cast in volume. Call George Metalworks @ 888 638 2596. He will give you an estimate according to volume. I think the contact is Lou. Hope your investment works well. Charlie

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:21 - ID#286234)
It isn't bloodthirstiness. People who had not thought about self defense before are becoming concerned enough for their family's security to ask questions. It is not an approved subject but obviously plenty of opinion about weapons for personal protection is available here. After a flareup the topic usually cools down and ends fairly quickly.

The Second Amendment needs no interpretation, its meaning is clear, a child can read it and understand its intent.

I'll shut up for a while.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:26 - ID#31868)
Quite right...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:27 - ID#153102)
I have an investment thought which the participants in this forum might want to research and share back findings on. The BIS, the Central Banks that are members of it. and the gold payment demanding countries have very strong mutual interests. In retrospect the addition to membership in BIS of China and the Saudi's in 1996 was very significant.
ANOTHER has told us that oil in the ground can be made liquid to bid for gold. ABX has shown that gold in the ground can be made liquid at LBMA.

Let us assume that an oil bid for gold is what is working out. If so, an American oil company with a controlling interest in a gold mine would seem to me to be a good play.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:29 - ID#31868)
astute as usual. Now, what company in the great state of Texas, nah.....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:33 - ID#426220)

Here are reports and studies of world acclaimed financial analysts. Since most of their labor represents considerable original research, we have indexed all for your quick reference. It will be necessary to CLOSE the space before the word "-eagle" BEFORE pasting the URL to your Internet locator:

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:35 - ID#153102)
Hmmmmm. Zapata Oil ? It might very well indeed reduce the scope of the research effort if one just searched for oil companies which have George Herbert Bush as Senior Advisor or member of the Board. T1 has a keen eye.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:36 - ID#252127)
@ Donald 11:11

Better that Greenspan and Rubin switch jobs and then Congress gets rid of the Federal Reserve.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:43 - ID#330175)
@ Cape Breton...........................................* Go Blazers*
I think ( duh ) there is LSD in the water system here~~~~~~~

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:46 - ID#261269)
NightWriter.....Adolph Hitler
was born exactly 100 years ago today!!

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:53 - ID#24135)
Angolan war
For Robnoel
Just because you fought it didnt
make it any less expensive. If this
is a matter of who gets the last word
we can waste a whole lot of time here.
You seem in a tetchy mood .. not me.
Understand your emotional reaction to
cubans, chinese, russia, Mugabe etc .. however
wish to point out that YOU live in the
country that ultimately sold out RSA after
using them in Angola. After that they sold
out Savimbi. Before that they sold out
Rhodesia. The ANC just went for power. They
didnt double cross allies along the way.
The US and the Brits do that all the time.
You only FOUGHT cubans and Angolan REDS.
They didnt sell you out. The US ( with the
exception of Jesse Helms and maybe C. Crocker )
did. And Klinton couldnt buddy up to dos
Santos fast enough.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 15:57 - ID#330175)
Happy Birthday--------------

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:00 - ID#31868)
TED - I must formally announce that I can no longer propagate the myth that
we are under attack by New Foundland. Yes, they love rum, and now tequila, we are sitting here at the edge of the harbor, can't understand a word they are saying, but the steaks and clams are cooking just fine.

These folks are quite affable, I kinda like 'em.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:03 - ID#176200)
@BillD. and I am exactly 41 today!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:09 - ID#57232)
Euro news, no ECB bank head yet, Malaysia downgrade
From Economeister. Please note bearish comments about US balance of trade.

mozel, SDRer: Also note the section for 'Central Bank Watchers'

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:15 - ID#212197)
@BillD: 47 years old when he died? I would believe 57......
Date: Mon Apr 20 1998 15:46
BillD ( NightWriter.....Adolph Hitler ) ID#261269:
was born exactly 100 years ago today!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:15 - ID#347235)
Sorry about the missunderstanding, I see this type of stuff about every three weeks people trying to figure out the best way to kill other people,
I saw enough of this already. Still a shotgun is the best close in. I have 2 streetsweepers I bought years ago and taught my wife and chilluns how to load for me! Sorry to get off of gold but I am still buying.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:16 - ID#373403)
Yes, Latinum. Did not mean to offend any Latvians: )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:17 - ID#286234)
Happy Birthday Open-Loop
You're all tuned up and putting out a fine signal.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:26 - ID#347235)
All the books I have read about WWII and Hitler led me to beleive he was 57 when he Died to he must ave been born in 1888 which means he would have been 110 years old today. Too bad he managed to kill himself off Nurnburg Trials would have been too good for him tho.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:32 - ID#261269)
@ALBERICH_A....He!!...maybe it was 110 years ago....
...go gold...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:33 - ID#320376)
65 years ago today
Something to do with the gold standard and certainly nothing to do with Hitler....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:34 - ID#176200)
@sam. THANKS! Ham Radio is a hobby of mine...
You never know when you will need to put out a good signal. I am
equiped to communicate globally without the need for external
power or a fone line...

If I knew then what I knew now, I would be typing this from home!


not speaking for my employer.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:35 - ID#410198)
John Disney,The Lord has smiled on us we finally agree on something,yes I be in the land that sold
Rhodesia,South Africa,I used to feel disdain for Americans for that very reason,however after living here for 20 years,it was the very same Commies in the US Congress and the media ( that we were fighting there ) that were the cause,the American people never got the true story,they were feed the line that white folks in Africa were all members of the KKK,I have spent many radio hours setting the record straight,going so far as to trace the founding father of my home country Cecil John Rhoades,as the founder of THE NEW WORLD ORDER,hence the reason most Rhoade Scholars ( Bill Clinton ) have this leftest agenda,yes my friend,I am fully aware of the policys that destroyed Southern Africa,Jimmy Carter pandering to the black vote,Cyris Vance,Henry Kissenger etc.American politicians are corrupt I know,and I trash them every day for 3 hours,the good news is the God fearing tax paying honest Americans have seen the light and are starting to fight back,funny thing happens when folks hear the truth....God Bless John : )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:35 - ID#261269)
One thing about this Kitco....
You BETTER have your facts ( and years ) right!! : ) )

Aragorn III
(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:37 - ID#212323)
Perhaps Nightwriter wants somebody to recall...
the day the sheep gave up their wool in winter. Brrrrrr....but I hope we are all feeling the warm yellow glow these days.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:39 - ID#347235)
Are you on a station in Alaska, if so what time?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:45 - ID#31868)
nothin like a few pounds of filet to soothe a hungry clown...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:51 - ID#410198)
Retired Soldier,I may be but don't think so you can hear the show on the internet,shortwave or sat.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:53 - ID#269469)
win98 Y2K

Lets not get too excited about potential MS-Win y2k bugs. I can't imagine any truly critical system being run under a MS operating system anyways, can you? In the event of a truly catastrophic windows y2k bug, at worst we'll see widespread annoyance and fast patch generation/distribution. The mail still arrives, the bank still opens... assuming their ( mainframe ) code is up to snuff.

Try it for yourself, set your clock for 11:30pm on 31 Dec 1999 and wait. Nothing happens to the majority of applications, and patches are being built for those few that bomb out.

PC's won't be a problem, ( embedded ) systems that know the date will be the problem. Like elevators that all wait in the lobby between 8am and 10am on weekdays... these are the things that will be overlooked.

Go Gold

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:54 - ID#410198)
Now back to gold.....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:58 - ID#201238)
comex data

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for April 20
Gold 639,698 + 5,394 troy ounces
Silver 90,151,281 + 670,866 troy ounces
Copper 110,206 - 614 short tons

(Mon Apr 20 1998 16:59 - ID#252127)
Got me baffled

Some of the high ball gold prices that have been stated here are ludicrous, especially when its has been rolling around $300.
Best that the fact of the present inflation be brought home for all to see.
For sure the real inflation rate is being kept a state secret - sounds Kremlin like hur.
Can you imagine the spending power that would be unleashed by selling into a gently receeding DOW, and its effect on the cost of things.
Or are those making these big market gains looking for still bigger gains for their retirement.
Also to consider is what is the very make up of the group making all these market profits.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:01 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 29.70

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:03 - ID#286279)
I didn't progress beyond the novice license I got almost 40 years ago. I built a crystal transmitter from a schematic in an ARRL ( ? ) publication, but I couldn't figure out how to load the antenna. Someone helped me tune up a few times, but it was the code that proved too frustrating for me. You have rekindled my interest. Never should have sold that old Hammarlund receiver...

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:05 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .272

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:06 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 49.24

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:09 - ID#26793)
He was born in 1889

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:12 - ID#286279)
You know I wasn't aiming at you, just an excuse to spout off and avoid work.

Think I had best go work in the garage, no computer out there.;- )


(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:13 - ID#26669)
Speed re SSC re my 2 cents worth
I'm in the process of digesting their 1997 annual report and have just mailed my proxy vote for their board elections, didn't see any new stock dilution votes or other scary stuff this time. I'm holding but not buying more FWIW

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:19 - ID#176200)
There is now a no-code license available that gives you full
use on all modes for 50mhz and above. All you gotta do is
study the question pool and take a written test that are given
in your area ( if you are in the states ) on a weekly basis.
If all the Y2k predictions come true, us hams will be popular
folks in the neighborhood...

I am ready with a generator ( and 1 month of fuel ) and solar
battery power 12v.
I encourage you to look into getting your ticket!

not speaking for my employer

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:24 - ID#30116)
A couple of palladium news stories.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:28 - ID#30116)
@One more time on Palladium stories..
Why does it do that!!!
Story one,
Story two,

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:28 - ID#26793)
Japanese banks making fewer loans.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:28 - ID#286279)
Interesting. Although I am not a talker, I am definitely going to look into it. Are there many goldbug hams? Thanks! Over and out.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:29 - ID#28861)
223 and SSC
I traded in and out a few times, and am in now. I think they will post a good quarter next time. bwdik It's a shame that gettin' rich is such hard work! : )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:33 - ID#26793)
I am not a radio ham but I have a General RT license. I passed the test for 2nd Class back in the early 60's. About 10 years ago they combined 1st and 2nd into General.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:35 - ID#233199)
@John Disney_A (Off topic.)

Mr Disney, could you contact me vai e-mial with detatils of how you purchase CDs from England? Is there an on-line British dealer?. I want something not available here in USA.


PS - do you think this is a poor time to move into Harmony?

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:36 - ID#24135)
Stay well Rob
For rob
Glad we can agree on something .. I find
that comfortable places are frequently
found in the belly of the beast.
I think that my next move may be to
Cuba. Restoring an apartment in Havana
kind of thing... or more likely.. one of
those Adriatic Islands off the Dalmatian
coast of Yugoslavia. I think Cyprus may get
too hot short term ( but it has sweet tax
laws ) .

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:37 - ID#233199)
e-mail address:

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:42 - ID#26669)
JTF, re Dow 20,000 and other?
Well, thanks for the reply! :^ ) In the end there are a hundred different paths to Dow $20,000. Among these are an 80% shakout followed by recovery to 60% of peak next year and a 13% growth for the remainder. AND a hundred different paths to a Dow of $5000 by 2010. I don't think we can guess the future except to say it will be optimistic or pessimistic for several of the investment classes then decide how much of each we want to hold. IMHO

Its refreshing to have someone bring up reasonable thoughts on such issues after wading through the usual death, gloom and doom posts! We need to discuss more probable ranges of possibilities rather than constantly debating apocalyptic scenerios. IMHO

John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:42 - ID#24135)
Golden CDs
For swp1.
Sure but I dont know your address.
Im .. I use crotchet
and co in the UK. Their ad is usually
in the Gramophone. But check out
Berkshire Records in the US for low
prices on off beat stuff. They have
an internet site. Get their catalog.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:42 - ID#410198)
HUMBA GASHLY brother John

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:43 - ID#26793)
The South African Gold Stock Index has stopped its long decline.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:47 - ID#320376)
And the 1953 Buick Super Riviera with radio and heater goes to....
Sorry, no winners today. Just 65 years ago today, in 1933, a day that will ( in the opinion of some ) live in infamy:


On April 20, 1933, operating under the authority of that same Trading with the Enemy Act, President Roosevelt issued an executive order making it a federal felony to export gold or gold certificates, or to earmark estic gold for foreign account, without a license from the Treasury. Foreshadowing the August 1971 events at Camp David that affected official U.S. gold transactions, this April 1933 proclamation marked the end of the U.S. gold standard for private international transactions.


By April 20, 1933, the United States was off the gold standard to follow a financial program of inflation.


In the spring of 1931, little Austria's over-extended Kredit-Anstalt collapsed, taking that nation off the gold exchange standard. Panic spread to nearby Germany, whose banks too had borrowed short and loaned long. In July of 1931, Germany left the gold standard. Next was England, which ended her ties with gold on September 19, 1931; and finally, on April 20, 1933, the United States put a permanent embargo on gold followed by a drop in the dollar's exchange rate. The United States, too, had left the gold standard.


John Disney__A
(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:49 - ID#24135)
Harmony on Compact Disk
For swp1
on harmony .. Im over 75% sold out
so I cant reccomend buying now. I took
profits because gold scares me now
and I prefer platinum stocks for the
moment. But should gold hold up,
Hm can go to 7 with no problem and Im
kicking myself.
I use Crotchet in the UK. They have
an add in the Gramaphone. But try
Berkshire for low cost off beat stuff
in the US. My email is

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:51 - ID#14431)
NightWriter--Hitler assumed power in 1933...
but was it today?


(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:52 - ID#341189)
"Apples to Apples" evaluation of Jananese equities SURPRISE!! Donald: note global auto statement

(Mon Apr 20 1998 17:55 - ID#320376)
Why not gold?
Somehow someone would have to sell the idea that tying the dollar to gold and not to the printing press and the whims of the bureaucrats and politicians, is not "barbaric"! The Bretton Woods Agreement did not work, mainly because the United States persisted in an inflationary course and exported that inflation to the rest of the free world.

Restoring a dollar based on gold, thus restricting unlimited credit expansion in the private and public sector in the United States, and returning to our international gold standard system with more or less fixed exchange rates and a limit to the expansion of international

credit could be the greatest contribution to peace the world could have. But are the American people, and the free world, wise enough to take that step, and willing to pay the price?

plagiarized in totality from

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:15 - ID#347235)
@ Donald
I stand corrected on hist birth year, learned it long enough to pass a test
years ago knew he was 57 when he died though/ should have done the math before spouting off. Any way why bother talking about him and spoil a beautiful spring day in Fairbanks AK???

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:17 - ID#26669)
Latvian? Latvium!
Steve, I'm glad you cleared that up about Latvium coins. When you first mentioned it a few days ago I thought you'd just misprinted the word Latvian. You know that the Baltic Republics have many thousands of years of coinage history? The Latvians are having a cultural renaissance and they produce some modern coins which are both beautiful and unique. ( I have no business nor fiduciary interest in the bank of Latvia, but I like to look at coin pictures so have bookmarked the site. ) IMHO

Good luck with your investment and casting. We'll keep our fingers crossed. I guess its too late now to mention the fact that Rio Grande and SWEST sell a room temperature silicon rubber which is safe to use on wax masters? IMHO

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:23 - ID#220325)
Chart of North American VS. South African Gold Stocks
Vronsky has done the work for us on these chart comparisons for $100,000 of investment in each security. Site drop off the "en" after cutting and pasting

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:35 - ID#201238)
a note please
Retired Soldier - could you please drop me an email note, I would like to talk to you about Alaska.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:38 - ID#26793)
You heard it a Kitco first.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 18:59 - ID#286279)
Calling Donald

-.-. --.-
-.-. --.-
-.. .
.-- ... .- --

Thanks for the info. Sounds like once you get to General you don't have to keep getting recertified. Why did you give up ham radio?

Back to the garage...

Was the signing-off lingo...73s?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:00 - ID#23782)
Subject: Progress in the EU

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the offical language of the EU rather than German, which was the
other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has
accepted a five year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".

In the first year "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make
the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of
the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan will be more
effisient bekause the "c" kan now be used to make "ch" in one stroke.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replased with the "f". This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptans of the new
spelling kan be expekted to reach the stag where more komplikated changs
are possible. Governments will enkorag the removal of doubl leters which
have always ben a deterent to akurat speling. Also al wil agre that the
horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go

By the 4th yer, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
"ou" and similar changs vil of kors be aplied to ozer kombinations of

After ziz fifz yer ve vil hav a rali sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor
trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand echozer.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:06 - ID#239438)
Re Sweat
Well said.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:09 - ID#288295)

I weel zee dat you get de Bernatz award fur dees post.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:30 - ID#256326)
Very clever of you to publish that compendium of conspiracy garbage. The conspiracy freaks will be so busy reading it for the next ten years--those who can read, at least-- that we won't hear a word from them. Who says no one has a sense of civic duty anymore? Thank you kind sir.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:40 - ID#176200)
To answer your questions, yes I have several close friends
who have thier ham ticket and are goldbugs. We are also kinda
fearfull of the future and have a 1yr supply of food and water
on hand just in case. I just read or heard somewhere that the
gov. has some kinda emergency powers that can be enacted that
will only allow one to have a 3-month supply of food in times
of emergency or something like that ( I get jammed with sooo
much data everyday its hard to keep track! ) We feel that
something big is coming and would like to be at least half
prepared for it. It saddens me that most of the people I associate
with have thier heads in the sand and all thier money in the
market and think that leasing a new BMW is a much better
investment than GOLD. I am not kidding! I never mention gold
around any of these folks anymore because all it brings is
ridicule. Good luck with the ham ticket stuff.


not speaking for my employer

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:41 - ID#432157)
Another's postings are FAMOUS----Dennis Wheelers--Gold Stock Report--April/98 spent 2 pages on his postings .This web site is well read around the world.
I was very impressed that a report would spend so much time on his postings which we are lucky enough to get FREE.


Quixotic 1
(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:46 - ID#48200)
Ham & Beans(Golden Beans of course)
Sam & Open-Loop
I have bean a Ham for years. I passed the written exam for Extra Class last year. I was working on getting my code up to 22WPM, when I had a car accident. An undiagnosed concussion and post-concessive syndrome have decimated my code recognition ability. At this point, I still can't recognize all the characters at even 5 WPM. They say another yearI hope73sN1SLT ( ) .

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:47 - ID#210114)
Dow Jones Overvalued and in trouble.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:47 - ID#347447)
Hitler's Birthday - spare the candles
Adolf Hitler - April 20,1889 at 6:30 PM, LMT in Braunau, Austria, 13E03, 48N15.

Leave it to an astrologer, of course.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:47 - ID#210114)
Since when has the word 'Please' been in breach of nettiquette? I made no insulting remarks. I directed my comments at no individual.

I merely made the point that I do not think ANOTHER should be taken seriously.

They have not identified themselves.

They have made ridiculous predictions which have been incorrect.

Although interesting ANOTHER's posts lack credibility.

It is my view that some on this forum need a reality check. Discussions about the imminent return of the gold standard and the possibility of POG price rises to $US30,000 not to mention the endless conspiracy theories only reinforce my view.

I am an infedel. I am not a goldbug. I am a Keynesian. I am what is know in the US as a 'liberal'. I hold gold as insurance and as an investment but that is all. No gold standard here.

Best wishes,

Live Long and Propser.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:48 - ID#347447)
John Disney
Jonas Savimbi...Hear Hear!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:51 - ID#210114)
Vor uns liegt golt, in uns marschiert golt, und hinter uns kommt golt!!

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:51 - ID#347447)
a brave soul are you. I salute you, even tho you are a Keynesian. ( In the long run we'll all be dead, so might as well be friends now ) .

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:51 - ID#267344)
I will ask this question once tonight and again in the morning:
What is the cheapest way to convert US Dollars into other currencies ( e.g. the Euro, Swiss Francs, New Zealand Dollars, Kronas, and Kroners ) ? - I want the physical. Who is the house currency expert. - c

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:53 - ID#210114)
Mike Sheller
Thanx. Just practicing my right to free speech.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:56 - ID#432157)
Hitler's Birthday
He is responsible for the DEATH's of approx 20 million people POX on HIM May he rot in He-- .

Sorry Bart just had to say it

OK GO GOLD my precious

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 19:59 - ID#347447)
Free Speech, and Free-dom is what it's all about! Practice away!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:04 - ID#256326)
Next time you find yourself anywhere the American Kalihari I hope you will drop in for the best martini you've ever had. You have the most cheerful personality on the net, and I'm sure I could disabuse you of that tendency after a couple of Mama's martinis and some good smoked NM green Hatch chiles. Y'all come, d'y'hyeah? ;- )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:05 - ID#256326)
anywhere NEAR, that is

Voyeur Professor
(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:05 - ID#231101)
Gold's "wall of worry"

In Stephen Leebs most recent newsletter ( April 22, 1998 ) , "Personal Finance," he writes:

"  If you believe the government is balancing the budget with honest numbers, the soaring trade deficit wont hurt the U.S. dollar and inflation will remain under 3 percent, theres no reason to hold gold," chides a skeptical Jim Stack.
We agree. Like Stack, were holding the yellow metal as a hedge against the all-too-likely possibility this best of all worlds will end.
So are four of "Timer Digests top five gold market times, despite some skepticism about the metals ability to break upside resistance. Steve Todd, for example, is  giving the bulls the benefit of the doubt despite doubts golds rally is sustainable.
Most investors, however, seem to be following the bears. In a recent bulletin to the "American Association of Individual Investors," for example Chairman James Cloonan asserts gold is just another commodity and cant think of a valid reason to consider it as an investment.
Francis Scotland believes the rules have changed against the yellow metal and is preoccupied with profiting from deflation. Mark Skousen concurs, citing the victory of supply-side economics as ironclad reasons why current deflationary trends will continue despite the easy money being dispensed by central banks. Anticipating deflation on the march, hes diversifying out of gold into other resource stocks.
Gold bull Adrian Day believes the Midas metal will continue to be plagued by short-term uncertainty, due in large part to  investor fears about the possibility of furthr central bank sales. But he asserts top gold stocks are very inexpensive and admonishes investors to buy now."
We coulnt agree more. History shows when gold does rally, it will be too late to climb aboard."

It seems that Leeb has enumerated several of the dominant fears about gold and identified the enormously bad karma that gold has for investors. I dont know when this dog-house psychology that has trashed gold investing will end; but it appears many professionals still keep-up the mantra against gold.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:08 - ID#45173)
Mike Sheller re: ready on the right, ready on the left...
Amen. If the worst comes to pass and the bad guys come for my gold, I give it over. Shame on me for leaving it where they can get it. It's not worth dying for, or even bleeding. If it's the "good" guys I'll put up a fight, but through the courts. I'm no Hollywood movie hero. Ain't got the soul of a soldier, and I'm glad for that because it's a soul that hurts for many of life's gifts. The few physical fights I've been in, I know what it's like to be under attack and to take hits for a weak moral cause, like a woman's honor or money. In time the woman will forget you, and you can make more money. It's just not f*cking worth it. Hand me that remote, will ya?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:10 - ID#230244)
Could yu give us some of the highlights.
thank you

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:13 - ID#228100)
Clone - Physical foreign currency
Call a few LARGE local banks and shop for the best rates. In a medium/small city, you're probably out of luck. Hotels and other businesses will gladly exchange your currency, but they will charge you at least a 3-5% premium.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:14 - ID#26793)
When I had a 2nd class ticket it needed to be renewed every 5 years. After it was merged with 1st and both were renamed General they did away with the renewals. I think the equipment is so good now that you can't really mess up. I just went on to do other things.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:14 - ID#347447)
EJ, Aurophile
EJ - them's pillow-fighting words! Uncle!

Aurophile: I will make it my business to get over there. Nothin" I'd like better.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:14 - ID#153102)
Just read your 16:54. Any American without a remote ought to read it.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:19 - ID#26793)
Japan Nikkei
Down 103, .66%

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:28 - ID#401349)
To All
Is anyone going to the Atlanta Conference. My wife and I normally attend but have a scheduling conflict this year. I would be grateful for an update on gold/gold stocks when you return -- this site, email, or I can give you a call. Thanks.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:36 - ID#254201)
trade Update
I off set my short May silver at 6.20 for 6 cents and ny June gold at 309 for $3.00. Xau and gold funds are holding up well. July silver appears to be rolling up and metal cycles should be bottoming now. I'm going to try and buy July silver tomorrow at 6.15. Still short SnP, looking for a drop into the end of April and another big rally in May. Waiting for spot gold to close above 312 on Friday.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:36 - ID#45173)
@Mike Sheller In case the point was missed
I am a wuss and know it. I can handle a fist fight. But like most US citizens I accept that professionals trained in combat protect my rights as a citizen and am appreciative, as I am by a lifetime of civilan life ill-equipped to do armed battle. No training. Unprepared. This is a fact. I appreciated your note to all who imagine themselves foolheartedly otherwise. Thx.

Crystal Ball
(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:36 - ID#287379)
A little excitement- Ha cha cha!
Whooopee! Bailed out of ABX puts ( boring ) and bought AOL June 75 puts when AOL hit 76 1/8. You guys were right- the P/E ratio IS over 600!! My luck, it'll probably be $100/share by June. Hey, EB, lost your email address. If'n you'd enjoy more jokes... :- )

PH in LA
(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:38 - ID#225408)
The role of intellectual disciplinarian is not a job I seek or relish. Nevertheless, the following must be said:

Mr. Spock:

You need not remind us here of your rights to freedom of speech as much as you need to remember that what you do say here must be supported by the facts and by lucid argument and rational discourse. Merely saying that you do or do not agree with another poster carries little weight if unsupported by your reasons for saying so.

Many here feel that ANOTHER has shown ample reason for the conclusions he draws. But it is nevertheless those very reasons that are found compelling; not the conclusions themselves.

If you, as a Keynsian, and/or liberal ( or whatever ) , wish to challenge and or discuss ANOTHER's THOUGHTS backing up what you say with cogent reasons, we will all listen. What we will not gladly suffer is the mere throwing of intellectual rocks.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 20:46 - ID#153102)
@What We Have Heah
in America is a whole lot of folks with initiative riding high on the coattails of people like Senator Feinstein who steals gold for her friends with a law in one session of Congress and confiscates firearms to protect herself and them in the another session. Go DOW !

A newly devolved critter called the American Human Ostrich which lives on a couch with a remote in one hand and a beverage in the other. This critter appears to make up an even larger proportion of the population than the Fein-DOW crowd. Go Sports Team !

And nobody much else that matters. As I find I am repeating myself, I am going to the garage.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:10 - ID#45173)
@Voyeur Professor Much discussion here about gold stocks
and compelling justifications favoring one over another. The South African stocks seem the best buy. TVX, FSX, GRE, PDG, PRU, BGO, HGMCY? Can you share your insights?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:11 - ID#190411)
Wow , nobody here
I have never seen mention of Euro-Nevada or Franco-Nevada here. These were the sisters that Dines was touting. I own some EN and they seem to be doing OK. Do any of you stockwatchers have anything to say about these companies?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:15 - ID#431263)
The train is leaving the station. All aboard! Take it from here LIHIR! The suitors are lining up for a LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIP!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:22 - ID#190411)
ANOTHER's prognostications
If what he says is true, there are many cheap out of the money gold calls out there. - Vast money to be made skewering shorts. I rather doubt that the whole futures market will collapse over the short term. Why are these calls so cheap if gold is going to Pluto soon? I still don't get the point. Obtuse one.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:23 - ID#288295)
clone @ foreign currencies

Give the Mark Twain Bank a call ( sorry, I don't have their number handy ) ...if you just want to have a foreign currency account, that is ( not currency in hand ) ...they specialize in foreign currency accounts.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:28 - ID#228128)
APH: ??
By offset your May Silver and June Gold do you mean that you closed out the positions? Waiting for 312 gold by Friday? Does this mean you are standing aside with short positions? Have you modified your view that gold is due for a hard move down?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:29 - ID#376309)
I just saw APH's update. It's amazing how close we have been lately. I was looking to cover my shorts at 308.5 today. Never got there but I still think we will. The XAU closed down on it's lows on the close and HM just closed below the 200 DMA today. I think we will have a quick sell off to 307.5 and maybe as low as 305.0 and then just as quick back up.
the 200 day moving average of spot gold converted into June gold is 310.1
today's high was 310.2. We are having some trouble here and I think that we need a running start to get through, although watch-out for an open above 310.0, this would indicate no pull-back.

I'm still not convinced that this is the real thing yet. I still believe one more pull-back but.....

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:30 - ID#401349)
I've owned EN and FN for several years. Both stocks have provided amazing returns -- and they continue to. They have been relatively unfazed by the POG bear market. I am not buying anymore right now but I hold them as core holdings.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:37 - ID#432157)
Toronto-Resource Conferance
ALL the pundits say GOLD is going NORTH .They differ on the amount. Some say EMU will hold 25-30 % and more GOLD.

They all sound very positive for GOLD.It sure was nice to hear ,still can't believe copy on ANOTHER's thoughts ( Sure hope he reads this ) The juniors will start to heat up and the DOW will crash differ on the % though .
Comments on this would be appreciated.


(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:38 - ID#260433)
Preacher, what is your take on the gold market for the next 30 days?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:39 - ID#24864)
You may have this but FYI Lihir is $2.35/$2.37. Last $2.35 up 4c.
Volumeof 1.1 million shares so far. Mr. APH are you still bearish?
Happy Trading all.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:43 - ID#66136)
SILVERBARON for Clone@ForeignCurrencies
Have found Mark Twain Banks slippage and pricing to be unrealistic for a trader. OK if one takes the position for hold. Number is 800-926-4922

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:44 - ID#256326)
APH, Glenn
In addition to the gold technicals, Dow and S&P are set up for the fall.

Besides all the reasons I put in the letter yesterday, the CBOE combined p/c ratio dropped to 0.48 today and Vix dropped back under 21. Technically this is death on the installment plan for stocks. Stocks suck! Go gold!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:49 - ID#288295)
buff @ Mark Twain Bank

Yes - you are correct - they are for buy and hold; I didn't know the reason clone was looking at foreign currencies.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:50 - ID#373403)
Dow, Silver, Platinum, Palladium, Rhodium all UP over the past year.
Gold down. I feel bad. Well, except for the fact that I keep buying more and more gold at unbelievable bargains.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:53 - ID#348169)
@geoffs and ALL! (Glenn! - Howdee!, APH, Bill , ad infinitum!)
geoffs - I was there this afternoon also! It's a shame that we didn't bump into each other ( or perhaps we did - I wasn't wearing a name tag - were you? ) AAR - The Show was great! There were many prominent junior explorers there , and some with great stories to tell and with great back-up properties as well! Did you get a chance to chat with Ian McAvity? He was one of the few I couldn't get to as at the time I was at his booth he was swamped with participants. It's obvious that the trend has changed for ALL the precious and Haggis and the boys will soon be doin' a Scottish fling to celebrate! AYE!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 21:59 - ID#190411)
I believe that you are correct about EN-FN. The returns are excellent compared to the mining companies. They are royalty companies, POG up or down, they still are OK. POG up looks ever so much better, though.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:04 - ID#431263)
Thanks for the update on Lihir! I can get the info but I have to leave Kitco to get it so do appreciate being updated from time to time while
online! Wiedersehen! Und guten Morgen!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:06 - ID#411112)
Mozel: Thanks I thought it was so good I'll post it again...THE GREAT GOLD SCAM

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:11 - ID#320376)
No endorsement of that stuff intended, as you know - simply quoting a source for my 4/20/33 date. After first going public with the date ( based on the morning Albuquerque Journal front page this-day-in-history column ) I began to doubt the date, seeing other dates ( e.g., 4.15.33 ) being mentioned as the official off-the-gold-standard date. Whatever the date, it should be as significant to some of the habitues of this forum as 1/20/73 is to pro-lifers, etc.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:19 - ID#256326)
I will have to start reading the ABQ Journal. They sell it on all the streets here, but I keep reading the New Mexican as my wife says the gossip is better. ;- ) I'm glad you took the humor as intended.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:24 - ID#256326)
Actually my records also showed 4/15/33 for notice day also with 1/31/34 for devaluation day.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:26 - ID#434137)
PC crashes as Bill demos Win98!!!!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:27 - ID#255151)
A Sip of Warteiner to All

Many interesting parallels between FDR and Adolf Hitler. Both assumed power in January 1933. Both died in office April 1945. Many similar approaches to the economy and expansion of Executive power in government.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:47 - ID#93114)
North American Palladium

Does anyone know what happened to the company after it reported
their tremendous losses on Friday????

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:49 - ID#270265)
I too am waiting for your gratious comments. You seem to know what you are talking about rather than all that history drivel and other chit chat that is on this channel. KITCO THE GOLD CHANNEL.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:54 - ID#256326)
PDLCF's price remains in the apex of the triangle from at least November.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 22:55 - ID#307271)
Careful my good man. There are Golden Bullets here. I too await the sold analysis proffered by the Preacher Man. Hopefully the too-oft slings and arrows he can dodge. Come on Preacher, Prophesy!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:03 - ID#93114)

I tried to trade some North American Palladium today and my broker
stated that the stock is no longer being traded effective at the close on Friday. Any idea why? I believe that they were removed from the small
cap listings but, I would have presumed they would go to the BB pink sheets.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:06 - ID#255151)
Slight Correction

The Inauguration of the U.S. President was changed to January 20 by Constitutional Amendment in Jan. '33. FDR assumed power in Spring of 1933. Hitler became Chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933. This was a legal and internationally recognized assumption of power by our birthday boy, Adolf. You can find such interesting facts at-- You can enter any month for the year of your choice, and get a nice summary of noteworthy birthdays, deaths, and historical events.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:24 - ID#254201)
IDT - Yes, I'm out of my short postions with a small gain. It's my experience that if a trade doesn't work in the first day or two odds are it's not going to work. These trades arn't dropping into the cycle lows the way I thought they would. It's less and less likely that a hard down is coming short term. But I still want to wait on a spot close above 312 before I make a move to the long side from these price level. Whatever your beliefs are on market direction money management is the key to success. Sometimes you're better off just not being in until the smoke clears.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:26 - ID#412172)
Mooney at Resource Conference
Say Mooney, did you happen to stop at the BCMD booth? I understood that they would have some of their jewelry grade quartz and gold on display from Lower Brush Creek mine. Pictures I have seen are gorgeous, let me know what you thought if you did. In any case, glad things are bullish at a gold show!

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:27 - ID#344308)

kelowna and pete---

bite me....also,fwwacldbahtysaarbtymbistsooywhwwb......yes.

gold is backed into a corner..going to be a strong move
very soon...look to the skies....and feel the truth....
they both are talking.

time for wheat, corn, and oat calls....ALLABOARD...beans later.

!; ) ...hep-rat...he has been very busy of late....YES?

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:28 - ID#284255)
@ Year2000
Thanks for the reply.
I run 6 different charting packages and none of them let me span the data across the year2000.
Hope they come up with some patches or upgrades.

I wonder how many other software programs have bugs inside them?

I liked your:
"I hope the mining and PM industry gets a handle on this issue!"

I have mentioned this risk a few times here with no respose as yet.
I guess all the mining companies in OZ will have to come clean with this issue soon - or they will be suspended.
But even if a mining company says it's Y2K compliant it still has to have external infrastucture and the utilities running smoothly or face problems.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:31 - ID#252127)
Here's a stock for your DD

1. Reported their sixth consecutive year of net profits.
2. Who increased gold production 140% in 97 and intends to increase it another 33% this year.
3. Has always managed to replace its original proven and probable reserves at its mines over the last 6 years and has some more properties on a branch of the Larder Lake-Cadillac Fault.
4. Who keeps gold bullion as part of its current assets; for 1997 it was Can $3.53 million.
5. That has a Price to Cash Flow ratio of 5.97.
6. That doesn't bull***t you.

Check out RICHMONT MINES at their web site

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:38 - ID#341312)
Missed the bankruptcy joke when I read it. Excellent book, I thought. Gave my copy to a sister who might actually read it and take some precautions. I've pretty much given up on anyone else I know taking it seriously. Any attempts to discuss it ( even with intelligent, supposedly educated people ) are met with outright derision or, at best, smug, patronizing smiles. I don't frantically go Chicken Little on them, I just quote recent articles that highlight the potential for serious disruptions that exist in almost every aspect of everyday life. Yourdon has a website you're probably aware of Check out the discussion forums. Other good sites include: Cory Hamasaki's DC weather reports , "scary" Gary North's site , , and . What's scary about Gary? All of his apocalyptic doomsday scenarios are logically deduced from mainstream news articles.
What does all this have to do with gold? Y2k poses a grave threat to the entire electronic financial system. Greenspan and now Caspar Weinburger ( in the latest issue of Forbes ) along with Ed Yardeni make that point in no uncertain terms. Physical gold, on the other hand, is about as y2k proof as you can get. When it dawns on banks, especially foreign ones, that they're not going to make it they will dump those soon to be extinct
electronic assets and buy gold. Not futures or gold stocks or options or derivatives. Bullion. Lots of it. With plenty of shotgun toting, shoot to kill guards watching it. They might dump it in 2002 or 2003 but on 12/31/99 they'll be holding gold and making very sure their customers know this. I bet the Japanese finance their gold purchases with U.S. T-Bill sales. Goodbye, Dow Bull. See you in 2007! Oh, and never, ever say RUN to a fractional reserve banker. For some unknown reason it upsets them. ;- )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:44 - ID#286234)
Quixotic1: Sorry to hear you lost your code speed. You must be a DXer. Best wishes for a complete recovery.

Open-Loop: Yup. What you say makes perfect sense to me. I like this place because of folks like you. Thanks and good luck.

Donald: As long as you have the license, why don't you fire up your rig once in a while, if you still have it, make sure it still works, might come in handy some day.

mozel: Remote- is that what we used to call clickers? Our tube is just for rented movies, no antenna, lousy reception anyway. Someone came to the door to give us a free connection to the new fiber stuff they tore up our streets for months to install. Honey said no thanks. He said but the connection is free and you don't have to sign up now. She said we don't watch TV. He went away shaking his head.

I remember that nice telegraph keys had gold contacts, heck the cheap ones had silver contacts, if cw becomes a craze I wonder what it will do for PMs...

Must have guessed right about...


;- )

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:51 - ID#284255)
Swing chart updated
The oscillators have been trending down since the beginning of the latest upleg showing distribution. The indices now look to be in a very weak position and need to lift their respective skirts if they want to keep on going.
Watch out below.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:52 - ID#255151)

Thanks for heads up on Richmont. Here is some
further info on Richmont-- Looks
like they produced 72,000 ounces of Gold in 1997, up from 30,000 a year earlier. They hedged 48,000 ounces of Gold at $377/oz. for 1997. Not that bad a move, eh. Also, they report a $/oz cost in 1997 of $215/oz, down from $275/oz in 1996.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:54 - ID#286234)
***history drivel***

Sorry, I said I was going to shut up a while, and now I will.

(Mon Apr 20 1998 23:57 - ID#316193)
Scroll Down to Glassman's Editorial -- A Classic