Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:00 - ID#20167)
mozel @21:12 U.S. debt vs liabilities
I was researching this subject several years ago and discovered the
According to Dr. Gary North and others, the total U.S. debt was at the time, about 19 trillion and according to the publication "Statistical Abstract of the U.S." the total value of all taxable real estate was about 8 trillion.
The ratio of debt to real estate value is about 2.5/1 Therefore, I
believe that your ratio of 3/1 is in the ballpark. Yes we are definately
living on borrowed money and we are collectively broke.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:05 - ID#20135)
Excuse me is this story valid...
is there an url to be checked???

Date: Sun May 03 1998 23:37
Pu'ukani ( London Times Lead Editorial Monday 5/4/98 Wlliam Rees-Mogg ) ID#226327:
Copyright  1998 Pu'ukani/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Steve in TO__A
(Mon May 04 1998 00:10 - ID#287337)
JP - thank you
Thank you for your post re: deflation in Japan. This first-hand account stuff is very important- it confirms that the average person on the street is taking this stuff into consideration. It will have an effect.

- Steve

(Mon May 04 1998 00:13 - ID#238422)
Monday is a Judgement Day.
If NY gold closes $3+ up, we are in business.
If not, we are in sh*t...
If it closes down, we are in deep sh*t..

(Mon May 04 1998 00:16 - ID#20135)
Well, it seems that Rees-Mogg isn't pleased.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:21 - ID#153102)
Yesterday's newspaper is past. Maybe some events were prologue; maybe not. But, yesterday's law is not past. It is not prologue. It is as alive today as when the ink was wet. Until it is repealed, it is alive, in force, available to those who know how to access it and who have standing to do so. So far as I know, no Constitution has ever been repealed in America. And save for a few States which have no Consitutions ( and really are not truly States ) , all Constitutions on this continent exist in the common-law.

Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug
(Mon May 04 1998 00:25 - ID#432214)
Aurophile - Yes I would like to hear Jack Frost's perspective
You can send it to me at
Any other info on the Elliot Wave is appreciated.
The bug.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:26 - ID#153102)
Thanks to the US Congress and Representative Crane and to people like RJ who sell golden eagles and the grace of God, I am not broke. No American need be broke. If they are broke, it is by their own choice and ignorance.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:27 - ID#28594)
A. Goose--DON'T sign off yet...things are falling into place--at last
Listen--their timeline is falling apart
1--starting with China's devaluation
11--ending with someone's post here tonight--don't remember
who, just skimmed quickly, that said: the transition, i.e.
using both the national currencies and the Euro would only
last for two or three months...that is TOTALLY off the wall!

Can you dig into the copper thingy? They have gold so covered
with paper we'll never be able to see from US looking out...
but they're not watching copper that closely. Remember, the
private money flees the currency's got to flee "into"
something...and we probably can't see through the $ price...
we'll have to go to quantity...

But I think it is now obvious that we are DEEP in Do...

(Mon May 04 1998 00:28 - ID#413109)
Date: Mon May 04 1998 00:13
oris ( Monday is a Judgement Day. ) ID#238422:
If NY gold closes $3+ up, we are in business.
If not, we are in sh*t...
If it closes down, we are in deep sh*t..
Oris, your analytical observations are on surpassed by your brilliant,
expressive journalistic style!!

PLEASE---- has anyone heard from, or know anything about POLARBEAR???
Would greatly appreciate a

(Mon May 04 1998 00:31 - ID#153102)
Just by way of illustrative proof, in a deposition or hearing in the recent past Hillary Clinton invoked her common-law right as a wife to be immune from being forced to testify against her husband. And, her right in common-law was upheld.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:31 - ID#287193)
SA Gold Index up ...up
5.47%...this must be today ?

(Mon May 04 1998 00:33 - ID#226327)
I don't usually put in the URL for London Times because it requires registration and a hassle. Will do so in future.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:36 - ID#413109)
a slightly different take
FWIW--- my take on the action this week is the Nikkei will start down
but end higher and begin a good size move. It must hold recent lows, and
I think it will.
US markets, I expect will begin higher, but end the week down, and this
will be the beginning of a sharpish correction.
Gold and PMs, I expect golds to go down and correct into the low- mid
290's, and XAU into low to mid 70's, before turning up end May/June
but the Silver and Platinum market may turn up before gold, and it may
even be this week that a turnaround is possible. This based on my own
work, which I've described before, but which seems to be born out by
stochastics on charts found at MID-AM.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:39 - ID#431263)
Morgan maties! Could one of you gentlemen please give me the latest LIHIR report from the land of OZ? Heard the El Nino-inspired drought was now over in New Guinea and that it's been raining like mad there since January. Any weather updates for the region? Thanks as always!

(Mon May 04 1998 00:40 - ID#20135)
can say comex had 112,259 tons on april 7th and had 106,537 on Friday.
Not sure what you want on copper, but:

finished with a loss here for the day, with trade sources
attributing the move largely to technical factors.
The July futures settled down 80 points at 83.70 cents,
after earlier trading as high as 85.30 cents.
Richard Padron, director of research for Concorde
Trading Group, cited an "inverted head and shoulders" on the
charts. This prompted a break of 84 cents in the July
contract to cause the market to fall for a low for the day
of 83.50 cents, he continued.
Another trade source commented that long liquidation
appeared to enter the market after three-months copper in
London was unable to challenge resistance at $1,900.
Despite today's fall, however, Padron said he
anticipates July copper will work its way higher again. He
listed a longer-term objective of somewhere between 95 cents
to $1.
"I think you should meet these pullbacks with the
possibility of a good buying opportunity," he commented.
He cited the continuing drawdown of London Metal
Exchange warehouse inventories. Statistics released early
today listed a decline of 4,450 metric tons, leaving the
total at 264,875, a steep decline from approximately
375,000 metric tons as of the end of February.
Padron also said Ascaro has reported world demand for
copper would grow 2.3% in 1998, even though production is
expected to top 1 billion pounds.
Padron and a copper dealer both listed the same
technical levels for the July futures--support at 82 cents
and resistance at 87 cents.
Three-months copper in London has fallen $14.50 to

COMEX Final Volume/open Interest by Month:
H.g. Copper

-- H.G. COPPER --
Finals for April 29
Contract Volume Open Int Change
April 98 3 0 - 186
May 98 3636 7934 - 1466
June 98 158 3266 + 11
July 98 7740 31419 + 1011
Aug. 98 38 1690 + 32
Sept. 98 239 6525 - 71
Oct. 98 2 1488 + 2
Nov. 98 1 1328 + 1
Dec. 98 532 10660 + 53
Jan. 99 29 943 + 22
Feb. 99 29 531 + 25
March 99 63 2055 + 34
April 99 29 461 + 27
May 99 39 1149 + 28
June 99 29 396 + 25
July 99 34 1052 + 19
Aug. 99 29 297 + 23
Sept. 99 99 792 + 83
Oct. 99 29 164 + 25
Nov. 99 29 184 + 24
Dec. 99 100 693 + 88
Jan. 00 0 13 + 0
Feb. 00 0 0 + 0
March 00 0 3 + 0
Total 12887 73043 - 48

COMEX Copper Warehouse Stocks

Warehouse stocks:

Copper - high-grade cathodes ( in short tons )
point previous received withdrawn net chg total
Amarillo, TX 949 0 281 -281 668
Baltimore, MD 37 0 0 0 37
Camden, NJ 0 0 0 0 0
Charleston, SC 0 0 0 0 0
El Paso, TX 7,175 0 198 -198 6,977
New Haven, CT 0 0 0 0 0
New Orleans, LA 2,314 0 65 -65 5,249
Norfolk, VA 0 0 0 0 0
Salt Lake City 18,745 0 109 -109 18,636
San Manuel, AZ 59,804 0 294 -294 59,510
St. Louis, MO 13 0 0 0 13
Stratford, CT 0 0 0 0 0
Tucson, AZ 18,604 0 157 -157 18,447
Total 107,641 0 1,104 -1,104 106,537

been buoyed some today by another drawdown in London
Metal Exchange ( LME ) stocks, sources here said.
"It's fairly quiet again today," one trader said.
"We're seeing a little buying on the back of another strong
stock drawdown."
Warehouse stocks of copper declined 3,450 metric tons
( MT ) to 333,425 MT, according to figures released by
authorities early today.
A source noted three-months copper in London traded to
its high of $1,733.50 not long after the inventory data came
out earlier today. However, it has since scaled back some to
a current level of $1,721.50, up $4 for the day.
"We drifted back lower on some liquidation and blipped
back up," he said. "There's really not much driving it. We
don't have much of a range."
Another contact said the market may also be deriving
some support from the possibility of expanding labor unrest
in Poland. Over the weekend, workers at two more KGHM mines
voted to strike if talks fail. Already, there has been a
labor disruption at the Rudna mine.
Support for May copper has been put around 75.60 cents
down to 75.20 cents. Resistance lies around 78.65 cents.

Warehouse stocks:

Copper - high-grade cathodes ( in short tons )
point previous received withdrawn net chg total
Amarillo, TX 949 0 0 0 949
Baltimore, MD 37 0 0 0 37
Camden, NJ 0 0 0 0 0
Charleston, SC 0 0 0 0 0
El Paso, TX 10,367 0 0 0 10,367
New Haven, CT 0 0 0 0 0
New Orleans, LA 3,086 0 149 -149 2,937
Norfolk, VA 0 0 0 0 0
Salt Lake City 19,976 0 0 0 19,976
San Manuel, AZ 59,195 0 0 0 59,195
St. Louis, MO 13 0 0 0 13
Stratford, CT 0 0 0 0 0
Tucson, AZ 18,785 0 0 0 18,785
Total 112,408 0 149 -149 112,259

(Mon May 04 1998 00:42 - ID#20135)
Date: Mon May 04 1998 00:33
Pu'ukani ( A.Goose ) ID#226327:
I don't usually put in the URL for London Times because it requires registration and a hassle. Will do so in future.


Thanks, it is always nice to take a quick view of the sources of interesting posts.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:43 - ID#238422)
Reify, your kind words are very much appreciated.
Thanks, brother Reify. I always wanted to
be a journalist... I just love to write on the
subject I have no idea about...

(Mon May 04 1998 00:49 - ID#287193)
no more words....aufwiedersehn

(Mon May 04 1998 00:53 - ID#28594)
Many thanks Goose. That helps a lot...
It is rather amazing how it is starting to fit together.
Goodnight. Thanks again.

(Mon May 04 1998 00:55 - ID#286234)
studio.r, sharefin et al @ ICQ
Yes it was fun, thanks! I have the door key to Kitco Bar & Grill ( I suppose I should have cleared the name with Bart first. )

You will see when KB&G is open on your ICQ window. Meanwhile you can always chat directly with multiple people that you haved added to your contact list. AND you can always start your own chat room. If I can do it anyone can. If it gets popular more rooms will be needed.

All: To enter KB&G add 11998901 to your contact list, then request a chat whenever it is online. If no one is there you can wait awhile or arrange to meet someone beforehand.

See ya later

(Mon May 04 1998 00:57 - ID#284255)
Read it and worry?

(Mon May 04 1998 00:59 - ID#153102)
I, too, sense a lot of significance in the sudden shortening of the dual ciruclation of national currencies and the Euro. They could shorten it down to nothing apparently.

When those currencies disappear, what happens to the IMF basket ?

(Mon May 04 1998 01:00 - ID#20135)
SDRer, a quick scan of the little info I have seems to indicate that the paper trades in comex copper tend to be in the 9,000 to 12,000 contract range. They don't swing as widely as gold contracts.


Gold 52,000
Silver 11,000
H.G. Copper 9,000


Gold 26,000
Silver 13,000
H.G. Copper 10,000

I remember the first time I posted the positive trend on copper someone popped up and verified the trend. They had been following copper for some time. Hopefully, the will once again chime in and help with whatever details you may need.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:01 - ID#284255)
Golden Cheesehead
Lihir down 9 to $2.57

You can see the weather from here:

I don't think that they've had that much rain.

Do you want their prospectus?

(Mon May 04 1998 01:01 - ID#373403)
What did Phillip Crane do? Thats my neck of the woods.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:05 - ID#20135)
Date: Mon May 04 1998 00:53
SDRer__A ( Many thanks Goose. That helps a lot... ) ID#28594:
It is rather amazing how it is starting to fit together.
Goodnight. Thanks again.

Anytime SDRer. Goodnight.

Big Time Tom
(Mon May 04 1998 01:09 - ID#212320)
Farfel and RJ
Farfel: In response to RJ's offer of an olive branch, you wrote:

"In conclusion, you asked me why I have not contacted you in the past. The reason is quite simple: you have not become the type of person I want to be involved with...yet. I gather you are younger than me [sic]...and I sense you are on your way there. When you "get there," then no doubt, we could be the best of friends."

With these condescending words you concluded a lecture in which you said in effect: "Whereas RJ is a great intellect with no heart, I am a great intellect with a big heart." How you presume to know so much about RJ's supposedly undeveloped heart is beyond me, but nothing I have seen of RJ's is as heartless ( or reveals as much confusion about the nature of true friendship ) as the words I have quoted above.


Sorry folks, but I had to get that off my chest.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:12 - ID#431263)
Danke schoen und ja, bitte, if you have one! I'd be most appreciative. Give me your e-mail address and I'll forward you either my fax number or mailbox number. Give me your address and I'll reimburse you for your costs.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:20 - ID#153102)
The Crane I had in mind sponsored the law for the minting of golden eagles and for their legal tender status and value based on the international market price of gold.
In all truth, Congress had no choice but to allow Americans to own gold and to mint coins once Nixon reneged on gold redeemability. Up to that point the legal fiction could be maintained that there was gold behind the Note. Americans underestimate the people in government. Congress legislates within the law though it is always at the limit of it. Americans do not comprehend that the government and the law presumes they know the law. But, they should, because that is what the Declaration of Independence was all about.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:21 - ID#284255)
Great for a laugh
LJ...Oldman is one of the most accurate and respected investors posting on Kitco...the man is uncanny with his insights and he is pretty accurate in his often contrary viewpoints.
Pap, will be watching gold very closely on Mon. Uptrend needs to stay intact for my scenario to work. that guy has a point. If gold fails here, it could be very bad ( for me ) ( ggg )
Luc...I've been on the sidelines with gold for a while now. I want to see how the news with EU plays out this week. Could be buy on rumor sell on news scenario. If so, I will be loading up big time IF there is a short term pullback. I like the quote by W. Buffet re: an investor loves it when a stock he wants to own goes down. Buying metal stocks close to book value is my idea of fun! Little Joe -
The only reason I posted that link is because the author of those comments has long been one of the most rational, reasonable, coherent, and considerate individuals to post at Kitco, for which some in the past have despised him.. If my memory serves me correctly, he is also a former private business person who at one time employed more than 200 people, and sold to a larger company when it became obvious that he would no longer be able to compete going forward without moving offshore. I remember him once posting that he found a great deal of irony in the fact that he had made more money being long in the stock market for 3 years than in all his years as a business person and employer. He also has avoided gold throughout the bear market, and has bought the dips in the broader market, stating some time ago that he would continue doing so until he is proven wrong, which he eventually will be: once at the bottom and once at the top.
Of course, there are many who would rather consider the ramblings of ANOTHER, in whose posts one can find nothing that is original and little that is even coherent. This unfortunate individual, who claims to be Oriental, but possesses no idiom other than that of an American or Canadian boomer raised in front of a TV set, has been wrong, wrong, and way wrong, again and again. And despite what some have suggested, he has never demonstrated any knowledge of the markets beyond what may be acquired by browsing Kitco for a year. And he certainly hasn't demonstrated the smallest fraction of what one would expect of someone residing in the towers of international finance, much less even that of a 28 yr old junior find manager's second assistant.
But to each his own. Live long and prosper.

Meaning no disrespect to you or to Old Man. But can't we all be right if we can be contradictory. By the way, I have no agenda nor do I consider myself to be a particularly astute investor, but if I see something that doesn't appear right, I will question it. I don't intend to hurt any feelings. observation of oldman is based on reading his few and far between comments over the last year. He isn't that contradictory IMO. He will be contrarian tho....
..."MAKE AN OFFER TO BUY THE U.S. GOVT"...................
Great least then it would run at a profit...the books
would balance...someone would actually be in charge.............
And we all would have stock options

(Mon May 04 1998 01:22 - ID#20135)
let us sleep on this...
``Now that the ECB row is over, there may be some shifting of funds from the United States to Europe,'' Chase Manhattan's Masaki said.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:23 - ID#284255)

(Mon May 04 1998 01:28 - ID#284255)
Global Intelligence Update
Crackdown on Direct-Marketing Schemes Threatens China's Stability

According to China's Xinhua News Agency, the Chinese State Industrial and
Commercial Administration Bureau has ordered that all direct sales
activities in China will be halted by October 31, 1998. The order is
apparently intended to stop pyramid sales schemes. According to the
Chinese government, thousands of individuals have been cheated by the
widespread sales of distributorships. According to Hong Kong media
reports, the ruling triggered riots and looting in central Hunan in which
10 people were killed. The proliferation of direct sales programs has left
thousands of Chinese with their life savings invested in products that they
can not sell before the October deadline goes into effect.

It should be remembered that the proliferation of these programs in Russia
and Eastern Europe after the fall of communism had a devastating effect on
large numbers of people inexperienced in free-market activities. Indeed,
the consequences of these schemes created social chaos and political
violence in Albania. Similarly widespread consequences are unlikely in
China but, as these reports indicate, the schemes and the government
response are creating substantial instability in areas where this activity
has been particularly intense.

The outbreak of violence following Beijing's decision is, however,
symptomatic of a real fragility in Chinese society. As the regime
struggles to bring the excesses of the past decade under control, they are
necessarily imposing serious burdens on various sectors of Chinese society.
These sectors will inevitably react unless they are suppressed. The
Beijing regime, which must rein in the Chinese economy, constantly faces
decisions concerning the proper response to massive unhappiness and
resistance to reform.

This was the theme of a May Day address by Chinese politburo member Wei
Jianxing, which was reported by the Xinhua News Agency. "As state
enterprises are deepening reform and facilitating technological progress
and economic restructuring, some enterprises encounter production and
operational difficulties and attain poor economic results. The number of
suspended personnel rises and they find it hard to get new jobs. Some low-
income staff and workers and retired workers are facing tough living
conditions. Whether or not we can properly improve their living conditions
and resolve re-employment problems will not only have an impact on whether
or not state enterprises can successfully carry out reform, but also affect
social stability and the solidarity of our socialist government."

The riots in Hunan give a sense of what the Chinese government is facing.
Direct-selling schemes, while widespread, are still marginal affairs in
China. The relatively minor act of closing them down with six months
warning, triggered an explosion. The Chinese government is well aware that
the far more dramatic reforms being proposed can trigger even broader
social instability. Moreover, there is no way to avoid these reforms, and
they must affect, as Wei Jianxing put it, "the solidarity of our socialist

This is a phrase to be considered carefully. If the reforms can be
effectively carried out without social upheaval, then there are no
problems. But if problems are encountered, and resistance develops, then
the Chinese leadership is clearly aware that the government can be torn
into competing factions. The stability of the Chinese government is at
stake, and the Politburo knows it.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:40 - ID#339212)
TO: Trinovant re: Apr 30, time 17:56
The Crusades of the 11th Century arose, in part, because of the
indignation caused by the imposition of a tax of one bezant
( by the Fatemite caliphs, who were more greedy for money.... )

Very interesting post. What / who were the Fatemite calips ?
Thanks in anticipation.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:45 - ID#339212)
S. Korea down 3.5%, at 392 - below 400 !!

correction on previous post: caliphs instead of calips

(Mon May 04 1998 01:46 - ID#252127)

You'll be blue in the face before you know for sure what percentage of gold the European Central Bank will use for reserves.
Yesterdays selection of the new CB head was a hoax engineered to keep you on edge.
Just the another ploy to keep you confused.
I assure you the one thing that will give gold a positive push is the failure of some bullion banks to repay a CB gold loan, but they will probably spin around that too.

(Mon May 04 1998 01:55 - ID#340302)
@BIG TIME TOM...the answer to your question ... do I presume to know so much about RJ's undeveloped heart??? Maybe this post below from last night will provide a clue.

Date: Sun May 03 1998 23:09
RJ ( ..... Markets, as Thongs, Abound ..... ) ID#410215:
Oris - Sell Russian Blondes. I know where there is a market



(Mon May 04 1998 02:11 - ID#340302)
@BIG TIME TOM...RE: RJ...still, I am one of his biggest fans...
...he reminds me of myself in younger years.

He is evolving and I have no doubt he is headed for greater things.




(Mon May 04 1998 02:18 - ID#284255)
The millenium "FLY"

You'll laugh at this one. It will backfire on you.

IRS down and out

Recession by the second half of 1999

World economy is run on 15000 MVS mainframes

Ed Yourdon's site

(Mon May 04 1998 02:22 - ID#153102)
Of course, a man has a right of property in his labor. But, do you realize that all rights are rights in property ? Your liberties are rights in property. When you attack rights in property, you attack the foundations of freedom.

( In American law a right may not be taxed. Yet, the right to property in labor is taxed by the income tax, apparently. Or maybe people just do not understand the law. )

The corporations are created by government. They are creatures of government. If government were to cease to exist or to have a discontinuity of existence, the existence of the corporation would be compromised, perhaps extinguished. So, the corporations and government are allied. Corporate Socialism is the American form of socialism. The government can make any rules and regulations for its creatures that it wishes. You may feel the weight of a corporation, but the power behind it is the government. And the spokesman for the corporation is the attorney who is an officer of the court, a branch of government.

The corporation is justified in the law on the basis of public benefit. On the basis of public benefit, the corporation is granted privileges and immunities which amount to advantages over the non-corporate competitor. I do not see how these advantages are for public benefit.

The corporation got the upper hand in the US with the passage of the 14th Amendment which made the corporation a person protected by federal law. Until then the corporations were controlled by and in the States. They were controlled so effectively that they were not a political force before 1860. There was no need for federal anti-monopoly law because private monopoly is prohibited in the common law. The propaganda of the day was that the 14th Amendment was for the freedmen. But, the major beneficiary was the corporation. Today it is popularly supposed only the national government can control the corporation. But, that is putting the fox as guard in the henhouse. The corporations are out of control precisely because they are protected by Congress from the States. Do Canadian corporations also have federal protection from provincial law ?

It's too much to explain here, but, in essence, most Americans due to ignorance of law are taxed and governed by statute as if they were corporations and not men and women. So, many laws that were promoted to restrict shareholder corporations in reality mostly restrict the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of people. It might be that way in Canada, too.

FDR and the demoncrats in Congress did precisely what I stated. FDR called his program the National Socialist Plan.

I don't know enough about Canada to make any suggestions for your We The People there.

All of your rights are rights in property. If you think that is B.S., I think it is from studying history without also studying the history of law.

(Mon May 04 1998 02:29 - ID#284255)
Sparks for the USA

(Mon May 04 1998 02:40 - ID#153102)
@Lord Rees Moog
was quite outspoken about the ECB nomination. But, why ? Was it because the rule of law, the Maastrich Treaty, was apparently violated by accommodation of the French demand ? Or because the demand was French ? Or was it because the English were hoping the whole thing would scuttle and now it appears it won't ?

(Mon May 04 1998 02:46 - ID#153102)
I thought I heard that the cables in NZ were buried that were involved in the Auckland blackout, and I have wondered since if they were buried for environmental reasons ?

(Mon May 04 1998 02:55 - ID#255284)
power and glory
buried for aesthetic reasons only. AUckland is built on 42 volcanoes, we have earthquakes less frequently than the Capitol, Wellington. Our forebears were reluctant to give us underground railways for obvious reasons. We therefore have an inefficient motorway system, "every" adult in auckland has at least one car.

BTW as to property rights. My friends are often suprised when they realise they have no "rights" in their photographic images. Some time ago one friend was the centre of a street shot, her "jauntiness" was eye-capturing, the video was used to advertise a clothing chain. SHe had no rights, altho to calm her the chain gave her vouchers.

Most Common law rights hark back to the crusades, at that time, the only thing of concern was property and primogeniture.

(Mon May 04 1998 03:28 - ID#290118)
ICQ and International View
Sharefin and I were just sharing experiences. One of the most valuable benefits I receive from this discussion group is the different views from different parts of the world and from different philosophies. We in the USA get to be so close-minded or narrow of outlook that we fail to see the larger picture. Thank you all.

(Mon May 04 1998 03:32 - ID#255284)
I emailed you my ICQ No, didja get it? I am afraid that this wonder shall be outside my grasp until they get a Mac 68K version running.

Ohhh, those Bluff oysters...... I shall let you know if they all work.


(Mon May 04 1998 03:36 - ID#284255)
Yes thanks you had better have a look and get it working.

Must be a MacDisease ( :- ) )

I seek you=icq

My sentiments exactly

(Mon May 04 1998 03:42 - ID#233199)
London Gold Mkt opens when?
Is the London market going to be open today or is it a holliday?

And if open what's the latest price?


(Mon May 04 1998 03:49 - ID#39828)
oink oink
June gold up to 305. Hows all you guys going ?. Hang onto you

(Mon May 04 1998 03:56 - ID#233199)

Do you have link for those prices?

(Mon May 04 1998 04:09 - ID#253418)
Johanesburg Gold Index
down 6.5% on its low. That's the bad news. If I'm not mistaken it was not open Frdiay so the drop is from Thursday's close which fits in with the gold bounce to $305.

I have expressed my bearish sentiment relative to gold earlier. Others' comments that I respect on this forum which confirm my feeling suggest to me this bounce on Mondy and Tuesday is a time to liquidate down to a better sleeping level. Gold is too politically controlled at this point for my tastes. Yes we will be blue in the face before we know the level of reserves for gold re the Euro and this bullion market will probably not turn for good until one of the gold banks fails - THAT IS A SENERIO THAT WILL MOVE GOLD!!! Thank you.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 04:52 - ID#24135)
Providing Credentials
to Oris ..
Appreciate your efforts to bring peace in our time.
However sad to advise war aint over yet. Gent in
question said that I had "said" my wife was Jewish.
This implied that he had doubts. Well she and her
family CLAIM to be Jewish. Does he think this is
a sham?? For this pugnacious gent's info .. Her family
name is Eliakim and that name has Biblical references.
He was a Hebrew King. Her family are Sephardic Jews
from Alexandria. Their lives were only impacted by
Hitler to the extent of most other non Europeans ..
( except for a few anxious moments when Rommel's tanks
were on the border ) . They are not Zionists. They were
kicked out of Egypt by Nasser and lost their dough.
500 odd years prior to that they had been kicked out
of Spain and lost their dough. They have no plan to
initiate court cases againt either the Egyptian
nor Spanish Banks because they know they dont have
a chance.
Being anti- semitic and disagreeing or questioning
the activities of certain groups of Jewish people
are two different things. The court case against the
Swiss Banks is about MONEY. When people argue about
MONEY .. sensitivities may be offended. Sorry if
that happens to this gent or anyone else.
Im interested .. Can this gent trace his family
name back to Biblical days like my wife ??
To test whether or not the above should offend
anyone , I have read this to my wife. She was not
offended in any way.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 05:00 - ID#24135)
Woops .. Rangold NAV
To Rangy fans..
Calculation I made on NAV was wrong .. Spoke to rangy
this morning and NAV is in Business Day today but I dont have
yet. Rangy said NAV as of March 31 was 7.8 rand and is 11.12
Rand at current prices. Rangy opened bid 6 asked 6.8 .. wide
spread .. maybe settle 6.5 ( $1.30 ) ??
He confirmed that "losses" in Syama were capital investment
mainly and SOME operating losses due start up and plant
modifications while operations in progress.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 05:07 - ID#24135)
Tennis and thongs
For Oris
Can you use your influence to get Russian girl tennis players
to play wearing thongs?? Believe this would do a lot to boost
attendance. It would give me a boost too.
For jims
I think today is holiday in London too
For Nick@C.
Personally, OLDMAN's politics are a bit too liberal for my
taste. Also I think that Attila the Hun was a pinko.
For StudioR
Bop till you drop
For Donald
I got it installed but it seems to use a lot of resources.

(Mon May 04 1998 05:08 - ID#39828)

(Mon May 04 1998 05:15 - ID#233199)
@ Disney re: Russell's lineage..

When I met Russell in Toronto it seemed He was convined he was related to Adam ( not so sure about Eve ) .

He was sweet but kind of cocky...

......I was sorry to hear he died.

(Mon May 04 1998 05:33 - ID#284255)
To read these articles you need 'Acrobat Reader'
Therefore, I am now raising the odds of a severe global recession to 60%. It could last at least 12 months. Real GDP could fall by at least 4% in the United States from peak to trough.
Mission Critical Approach Guarantees Failure:

A Deflationary Recession; If a recession is coming within two years, it will be deflationary, unlike the 1973-1974 recession, in which many prices and wages increased sharply, led by soaring oil prices.

A Trillion Here. A Trillion There; How much might the US price deflator fall in 2000? Conceivably, prices might drop 5% in a deflation scenario. If real GDP drops as much, then a 10% decline in nominal GDP would amount to a loss of nearly $1 trillion. Is this a worst-case scenario? Maybe, maybe not. By the way, this $1 trillion potential loss estimate is just for the US, and before litigation fees and damages, which may also exceed $1 trillion. Stock investors might lose at least $1 trillion if stock prices drop as they do in every recession. In the first half of the 1970s, the Dow Jones Industrial Average peaked at 1026.82 during January 1973. It plunged 42% to a trough of 596.5 during December 1974. The bear market lasted 23 months. A similar drop in the Dow from a peak of 10,000, let's say, would put it at 5800.

On March 4, using the data compiled by OMB, Congressman Stephen Horn, R-CA, released a report card grading the federal agencies on their Y2K efforts. The overall grade for the first quarter of 1998 is D-minus, "on the edge of failure" to quote Mr. Horn. Five of the 24 agencies received Fs and six received Ds.
Why gold will go through the roof in '99
If it restarts it's downhill trend now
It's only going to give us more buying power.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 05:34 - ID#24135)
It breaks my heart ..
to hear this .. swp1
I never even really got to know the guy.. I thought he
was on a trip up the Nile .

(Mon May 04 1998 05:36 - ID#252391)
Jgld only off 4%
Johanesburg Gold Index ( excusee my spelling ) has trimed its losses to -4%. I am almost certain that it didn't rade on Friday. The 4% drop is then off the Thursday level which was very exciting as it was only 3% for a 52 week high. As I remeber at that time there was talk about some gold funds changing their rules to allow themselves to buy SA gold sahres. Aslo CNBC was noting that GOLDS had caught on.

Watch the JGLD as a good indication of how far Monday's rally will or will not go . My bet is 308 won't be seen.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 05:45 - ID#24135)
The Jse was closed friday .. It was "workers"
day .. another of Mandela screwball vacations.
Im waiting to celebrate "traders" day.
I think we can retrace close to island
reversal .. maybe not. But as Oldman says
tonights close in NY is the important item.

(Mon May 04 1998 05:54 - ID#284255)
MISSION TO BASLE - Top Fed Official Sees Trouble Coming
The Deadline Is December 31, 1998.
44% Of Top 100 Banks Confess They Won't Be Ready;
Of the 100 biggest banks, 73 completed the survey and 32 of them admitted that they will not be ready by the end of 1998. Many US banks did not respond to the questionnaire for legal reasons, including
Citicorp, NationsBank, JP Morgan, Wells Fargo, Fleet, and Norwest.

Most companies and financial institutions in Southeast Asia have a Year 1998 Problem, namely, staving off bankruptcy. Y2K is likely to remain a low priority for managers and funding until it is too late. The February 4 issue of the Bangkok Post reports that Phillip Dodd, a "Unysis Y2K expert," expects that upward of 70% of businesses in Asia will fail outright or experience severe hardship because of Y2K.

Quarantine In Taipei; A March 26, 1998 Reuters dispatch notes that Taiwan's cabinet will shut down in mid-1999 any banks, nuclear power stations, airlines and other entities that don't pass an official Y2K inspection.

Wobbly In Sydney; Maurice Newman, chairman of the Australian Stock Exchange and of Deutsche Morgan Grenfell Australia, is as worried as I am about a global recession. He is convinced his nation is headed for a Y2K downturn.

CANADA'S TOP CEOs ISSUE Y2K SOS; Aware, But Inactive. In the fall of 1997, Statistics Canada surveyed 2,000 Canadian businesses with more than five employees and covering all economic sectors, except
government, education, and health. The findings were reported in the Task Force Year 2000 report:
1 ) Although more than 90% of businesses are aware of Y2K, only about 50% appear to have taken actions to address the challenge. Only one firm in 10 had a formal action plan.
2 ) Only 13% of the executives aware of Y2K had asked their business partners about their state of readiness.
3 ) In the key transportation, communication, and utilities sector, half of the large firms surveyed had not taken formal action to address Y2K. "Yet these firms are often mission critical to the national or local economy."
4 ) Only a third of the primary industries sector had taken any action. This suggests that the whole supply chain is at risk.

Brit CEOs Also Sound Alarm; "We fear that governments lag in assessing and addressing the problem," says the statement. It warned that disruptions could extend to "delays in welfare payments, the triggering of financial chaos by a breakdown in revenue collection and debt management, and malfunctions in the air traffic control and defense systems."

NO PLAN B AT IRS; Business Week ( Feb. 23, 1998 ) asked John Yost, the director of the Year 2000 project at the IRS, if everything will be fixed in time. "I'm not making any promises just yet," he responded. Mr. Rossotti has set January 31, 1999 as the deadline for fixing Y2K. "We
have a very thin margin of tolerance to make this whole thing work," he told USA Today. ( April 2, 1998 ) . He added, "There is no plan B."

Global attitudes and knowledge like this almost guarantees
Gold is going to become more expensive.
If not now then soon.

Never before has an opportunity arisen
To utilize the power of gold
As insurance for ones family.

(Mon May 04 1998 06:02 - ID#33024)
GOLD (elliot waves analysis)

(Mon May 04 1998 06:06 - ID#233199)
@ Disney

Me too, he had my map!

(Mon May 04 1998 06:09 - ID#284255)
What's wrong with the way I think?
Much as I respect Oldman's THOUGHT'S
I have to dissagree somewhat.

To my way of thinking his views are too insular.
They don't incorporate the Global world.
Only US markets and US politics.

What of events outside the USA?

What about the mania of Europe?

What of the problems with Asia?
Which are worsening faster than we think.

What of the coming Y2K problems?
Which will effect us all well before Y2K.

The US is not an Island
It is a part of the 'Global World'
It is not 'THE' part of the 'Global World'

And the global areana is looking slightly sick
It's got the sniffles before the cold before the flu.

For gold to fall further
Only offers better buying

Be you a seller or a buyer?

(Mon May 04 1998 06:15 - ID#233199)
RE: Warren Buffett

Still bullish on silver; heavier on cash.....

....Smart man? It would seem so...

(Mon May 04 1998 06:20 - ID#238295)
Sharefin: Oldman has one of the best stock market records anywhere. But I do not think he is nearly as good re: gold. He seems to get on and off fairly late in the geme. And to say that gold will go down to $250 if Friday's lows are violated on the close does seem a bit much. Even RJ projects no lower than $280.

That said I do hope he posts here more often. His stock market prognostications are INVALUABLE.

Cage Rattler
(Mon May 04 1998 06:29 - ID#33184)
Rangold down 9.59% on the JSE

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 06:39 - ID#24135)
To sports fans
Rangold trading 6.6 Rand = $1.3 which is where I said it
would trade from the opener.
Index off 42 as of right now which I make 3.9%.
Harmony trading 28 or $5.5 .. firm . Ddn Deeps $3.20 ok.
Sold some Northams .. all deeps.. some amplats.. a little
Ranfontein. Safety first plus a burnt offering.

Bill Buckler
(Mon May 04 1998 06:45 - ID#256381)
Latest Gold Quote
CBS has June Gold at $305.50 - up $1.90. Today, Aussie market was up 8 points while the Gold index fell 18 or about 1.3%. I have a lot of time for Oldman, his posts are always well reasoned and he knows the stock market.

Right now, the action on Gold and the attitude towards it reminds me greatly of events in early 1987, when Gold dipped briefly back below the $400 level. Gold gloom and doom was rampant ( Gold had been as high as $441 in Sept 1986. Of course, Gold hit $499 in December 1987.

On the charts I posted at my website on the weekend, Gold is right on its uptrend lines in $US and D-Mark terms and has retreated to the top of its recent trading range on the $A chart. The $A was down today, so if Gold holds its Asia/Europe gains in the US ( could be a farly big "if" ) , the $a chart should show an upturn.

Technically, it's tight alright. Has anyone considered that the "rumour" of Belgian Central Bank selling which was credited with Gold's fall in New York on Friday might just be the very last kick at that particular cat? Also, the Asian Crisis is getting worse. South Korean market took a king ( -3.6% ) hit today.

(Mon May 04 1998 06:51 - ID#233199)
re: Harmony on the JSE - How goes it?

(Mon May 04 1998 06:53 - ID#233199)
Opps I missed the earlier report on Harmony - Thanks

Bully Beef
(Mon May 04 1998 07:01 - ID#259282)
Quality disscussion last night.
This means of course gold will rebound today. That's what I call technical analysis.Go Gold! ( I'm willing it up to 307 )

(Mon May 04 1998 07:14 - ID#289357)

(Mon May 04 1998 07:15 - ID#289357)

Nous prions pour la vague III, oui?

(Mon May 04 1998 07:17 - ID#222231)
John Disney_A
My dear John Disney,

I assume you are from Johanasburg? Forgive me if I'm mistaken. I had a dear friend from your city, when at Ohio State University ,that was enrolled in Ceramic Engineering. His name is Phillip Garlick. This was back in 1948, and was wondering if you know of him, and if you do, how is he?



(Mon May 04 1998 07:24 - ID#248180)
Norilsk Rumored to Be Running Low on Palladium

LONDON -- ( Reuters ) The near depletion of palladium ore at key Russian producer Norilsk Nickel has driven the white metal's recent price surge, a Canadian mining firm said on Thursday.

Seymour Schulich, chairman of Franco-Nevada Mining Corp Ltd, told analysts at a London presentation that the company believed the Norilsk ore body was close to depletion.

"The main source, which is one of the ore bodies at Norilsk, is pretty well exhausted and that is why you are not seeing palladium coming onto the market," Schulich said.

Palladium has soared to record highs of $390 an ounce this month, from around $200 in January, on the back of supply delays from Russia -- the world's biggest palladium producer.

Norilsk and Russia's Almazjuvelirexport export agency have remained silent on precious metal production and export volumes, continuing a Soviet-era tradition of cloaking the industry in secrecy.

Schulich said Franco-Nevada last month bought a five percent royalty worth $51 million ( $36 million ) in certain metals produced by the Stillwater Mining Co palladium and platinum mine in the United States.

The Stillwater deal held good promise for Franco-Nevada, Schulich said.

With future prospects for the use of platinum looking good with new fuel cell technology, Schulich said his company believed it had made a good investment in Stillwater.

The Stillwater mine in Montana is expected to produce around 450,000 ounces of platinum group metals ( PGMs ) this year and around 1.3 million oz by 2003.

It is one of the few PGMs operations outside South Africa, Zimbabawe and Russia. (  ( c ) 1998 Reuters )

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 07:25 - ID#24135)
Mr Garlick
For pete ..
No Im in Capetown .. and I never had the pleasure. sorry
Later Ill check the Capetown Phonebook .. never can tell

(Mon May 04 1998 07:29 - ID#222231)
John Disney_A
Thank you for your reply.

(Mon May 04 1998 07:31 - ID#412286)
John Disney
Are you a native of RSA or are you originally from elsewhere. Is Cape Town a resort town?

(Mon May 04 1998 07:44 - ID#222231)
ALL - Y2K and a little humor to start the day!
Sung to the tune of Gilligan's Island.

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale
Of the doom that is our fate.
That started when programmers used
Two digits for a date.
Two digits for a date.

Main memory was smaller then;
Hard disks were smaller, too.
"Four digits are extravagant,
So let's get by with two.
So let's get by with two."

"This works through 1999,"
The programmers did say.
"Unless we rewrite before that
It all will go away.
It all will go away."

But Management had not a clue:
"It works fine now, you bet!
A rewrite is a straight expense;
We won't do it just yet.
We won't do it just yet."

Now when 2000 rolls around
It all goes straight to @#%&,
For zero's less than ninety-nine,
As anyone can tell.
As anyone can tell.

The mail won't bring your pension check
It won't be sent to you
When you're no longer sixty-eight,
But minus thirty-two.
But minus thirty-two.

The problems we're about to face
Are frightening, for sure.
And reading every line of code's
The only certain cure.
The only certain cure.

( key change, big finish )

There's not much time,
There's too much code.
( And Cobol-coders, few )
When the century is finished with,
We may be finished, too.
We may be finished, too.

Eight thousand years from now I hope
That things weren't left too late,
And people aren't then lamenting
Four digits for a date.
Four digits for a date.

sysop - 12:56am Apr 30, 1998 PST ( #42 of 42 )
Keith Rowland

( and a few familiar ones )

I'm a corporate executive -- I keep things from

If Clinton is the answer, it was a stupid question.

Lobotomies for Democrats: It's the law.

Bad Cop! No donut!

Where are we going and why am I in this

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

Back Up My Hard Drive? How do I Put it in

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who

I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel

He's not dead -- He's electroencephalographically

She's always late. Her ancestors arrived on the
June Flower.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you
say will be misquoted, then used against you.

I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be
without sponges.

Honk if you love peace and quiet.

Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it
remains so popular?

Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.

A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

(Mon May 04 1998 07:53 - ID#252391)
French Elliot wave link
noted below is rather interesting. Like the English versions it perdicts ( I can tell wven with my limited amound of French ) that the market will go up if it doesn't go down. Most interesting, the chart and report was done about a week ago when gold was enjoying its last charge at $315. The perdiction for a down market has come true with an objective of at least 296. If anybody does French maybe they'd like to interpret the writing for us, but like I said the jist of our French visitors perspective was that gold would up if it didn't go down. He was right - it went down.

(Mon May 04 1998 08:01 - ID#289357)

Use this handy tool for the French web-page translations:

(Mon May 04 1998 08:25 - ID#284255)
Old Gold
I highly respect Oldman - very much so.
From my internet surfing I find few of such calibre.
I too wish him to post more,
I hunger to learn.

I was not wishing to be disrespectful
More so trying to promote a 'Worldly Perspective'.

An insular 'US perspective' over the last few years,
Would have reaped rewards beyond counting.

Now I feel times are changing.
Soon will be time for 'US citizens'
To look outside 'Their World'
To the rest of 'The World'
For that is where the chaos is coming from.

This new event 'The Euro'
Has been spoken about
Centuries ago - Nostradameus warned.

This debt pyramid
Grows insatiably
And countries crumble
Under the weight.

We all see the carnage inflicted upon S Korea,
Mounting evermore.

Is bigger than imaginable

These are 'Global Concerns'
They will rock the boat.
The US will not be an 'Island'
Unto itself.

These factors will propel gold forwards.
I am not speculating
As to where gold travels short-term.
More so, towards the path
That the millenium leads us forward to.

I agree with him in his equity bull stance
But believe that it's end is soon.

I do not doubt that 'THEY'
Will hold on to the bitter end.
Protecting 'THEIR' paper
And pushing real asset values
Away from reality.

(Mon May 04 1998 08:46 - ID#226327)
London Times Editorial
Date: Mon May 04 1998 02:40

mozel ( @Lord Rees Moog ) ID#153102:

was quite outspoken about the ECB nomination. But, why ? Was it because the rule of law, the Maastrich Treaty, was apparently violated by accommodation of the French demand ? Or because the demand was French ? Or was it because the English were hoping the whole thing would scuttle and now it appears it won't ?


I don't think it was because he wanted the whole thing to scuttle. But the first two points are correct. He makes that clear in his editorial. He is also angry with the Blair goverment for not standing up to the French and because this decision politicizes the chairmanship and the running of the ECB which was supposed to be non political according to the Maastricht Treaty.

In addition, even though they have not fought against each other for many years, the Brits and the French still harbor a tremendous amount of mutual disdain for each other as well as each countries' national character and political system.

registration required

(Mon May 04 1998 09:08 - ID#234182)
PETE 7:44 Humour
Thanks Pete: Ineeded that!...regards

(Mon May 04 1998 09:21 - ID#433142)
Crude up - gold up. Please educate a "novice" on the relationship.

(Mon May 04 1998 09:23 - ID#288369)
@Rang ee, Dang me...They ought to take a rope and hang me...........
Hang me from the highest tree...Whoa! apologies to the late and great Okie...Roger Miller.

But would it be in the best interest of a European country if their central bank sold all their gold and then....the EMU blew up? Oh, I think not. The inter-european animosities that would come about from the political differences, poorly balanced monetary policies, biased trade arrangements, etc. might very well trigger a Euro currency war of great proportion. Southeast Asia..deja vu. It would be a sound strategy for these member countries to hold gold until this Euro deal shakes out. You know, cover your own butt first....knowing the dream for a common currency could be a political nightmare in the future.

Off to the office....GO GOLDBUGS!!!! She's real fine my 309.

(Mon May 04 1998 09:28 - ID#433142)

Asia Precious Metals Review

Gold firms after EMU summit

05/04/98 03:04 ET

Sydney--May 4--Spot gold prices rose about US $1.00 per ounce in Asia's quiet trading today due to light short-covering triggered after the EMU summit over the weekend and Friday's price falls, dealers said.
They said some dealers decided to cover their short positions in gold
after the EMU summit failed to provide any clear indication on future gold reserves held by the European Central Bank.
Over the weekend, the EMU summit closed after nominating European
Monetary Institute President Wim Duisenberg as first president of the ECB.
The market participants said some dealers rushed to cover their short
positions during Asian trading hours as a lack of news on ECB gold reserves is likely to lead gold to resume its uptrend on firm fundamentals.
The short-covering was triggered also in order to take advantage of
gold's falls on Friday caused by a report that says Belgium will sell more gold reserves in order to reduce debt. Later on Friday, Belgian Finance Minister Philippe Maystadt denied the report.
The dealers said light physical buying from regional dealers also
pushed up gold in Asia, where trading was quiet amid the Golden Week
holiday in Japan and ahead of the UK holiday today. The Japanese market
will remain closed Tuesday and resume trading on Wednesday.
Gold is expected to test above $306.00 per ounce later today in the
overseas markets, the dealers added.
Meanwhile, trading of silver, palladium and platinum was extremely thin because Asian dealers were reluctant to take positions with Japan and the UK markets closed today. The Tokyo Commodity Exchange was closed today and will be closed Tuesday to resume trading on Wednesday.

(Mon May 04 1998 09:34 - ID#30274)
Junior & Seymour Shulich

I don't think Mr. Shulich's comments are accurate. I think they are more demonstrative of the fact that his company has just purchased a net smelter royalty in Stillwater Mining.
Shulich wants his statement to be true, but I think it's a long way from being so.

The Preacher

(Mon May 04 1998 09:44 - ID#426220)

The XAU gaps upwards more than a point

(Mon May 04 1998 10:01 - ID#246224)
Pete, SDRer @Y2000
Pete - man you are KILLING me with that song! The bumper stickers were way funny as well. Keep me on the ground, will ya? TIA! My favorite was the "diagnolly parked in a parallel universe". But the Buffalo one was pretty good to.

SDRer - scary AND funny at the same time? I suppose it must be the hysteria I'm into these days. You know some people break out laughing as opposed to crying .. See 'Y2K Reporter' 13 April 1998 edition for a not so funny update. BTW what are your plans for getting out of NYC went its time? I would seriously suggest you start planning that 'vacation'.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:01 - ID#238295)
SHAREFIN: I too would never dis the OLDMAN. His knowledge of the stock market and the forces driving it is awesome.

I agree with your take on the equity markets. As for gold stocks -- I prefer to buy on weakness rather than on "breakouts" which may or may not hold.

I have commented here before that TA can be misleading because of fslse breakouts and false breakdowns. I am not about to panic if gold dips below $300 again. Neither will I get euphoric about tody's modest rally or even a rebound to the $310 area. This gold bull is living up to Captain Bill's observation that May and June are usually resting /consolidation periods before a summer blastoff.

Bernatz: Your insights and biting wit are missed. If you have an opinion on where POG is going, many here would like to know it.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:07 - ID#413109)
Thanks Old Soldier
Unable to reply to aol email, wish to say thanks for your input.
Have reply to my concern from another Kitco friend. Thanks.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:17 - ID#410215)
..... Common Ground .....

JD -

Sounds as if your wife's ancestors share a lot with my own. Not the religious aspect, but mine too were thrown own of some of the best countries on earth. With no dough. Came here, learned the language, assimilated. Became Americans, not some hyphenated version thereof.

Russell is not Jewish is he? Since he is not you brother, and you are not Jewish, nor is he in Toronto, it seems possible. He is probably not offended either.

Sell your palladium and buy something. Damnit man! I don't know what, just buy SOMETHING.

The bulls will feel better then.

They will


(Mon May 04 1998 10:23 - ID#410215)
..... PS .....

The time to buy platinum was an hour ago........


(Mon May 04 1998 10:25 - ID#342315)
RJ re your comment last nite
I'm still searching, so any thing you can add would be appreciated. This whole damn mess is just widow dressing furthe on the US$. Would like to know how you think, tanx Charlie

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 10:27 - ID#24135)
Rangold NAV
For sportsfans
I have gotten the Business Day and read it. It contained the
NAV and results for both Rangold and R. Resources. I have put
the Data in spreadsheet format and sent to Brother Vronsky ..
one of my Mentors at Mighty Kitco. I asked him to post it
some way if he can because it I try to post a table .. all
the column collapse and it looks awful.
The NAV at todays approximate prices is about R 10.6.or
$2.10. Its a cheap way to buy good stocks .. RRS plus Harmony,
Deeps and options thereon.
I am a Resident in RSA. I carry a Australia passport and am
an Aussie citizen .. But as springsteen puts it I was born in
the USA. Capetown is a beautiful city. I wouldnt call it a
resort city. Its a seaport. I lived in Japan, Australia, Turkey,
Saudi Arabia, and Andorra before coming here. I was born in
Virginia and that seems to have fixed many of my attitudes.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:28 - ID#230244)
The dogs of all dogs gave us a welcome suprise during the week end. They paid the April 2nd payment on the convertible bonds. Very nice 6.25% hope patience maybe they will climb back from shame soosn.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:28 - ID#284255)
Will the millennium bug give your operations the flu?
This time, oil and gas producers may face a more identifiable plague.

For more than 15 years, the oil and gas industry has expended a massive effort to re-invent itself. We all know that none of our firms would be competitive in today's market, if we had not made these hard decisions. A linchpin of the industry's success has been the reduction of the corporate cost structure through the use of technology and process re-engineering, much of it computerized. All of this work is potentially at risk, if serious loss of production is sustained as a result of unplanned computer shutdowns in many segments of the business, all at the same time.

No oil - no gold?

(Mon May 04 1998 10:31 - ID#230244)
Most gold stocks up today. the board looks very green.After all the doon & gloom on KITCO during the week end.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:32 - ID#410215)
..... Will it hold? .....

Perhaps we may look at gold as filling the gap Friday?

A hold here would add strength

And ease worries hereabouts


(Mon May 04 1998 10:41 - ID#284255)
ITAA Y2K Survey Finds Failures Already Starting to Occur
Conducted last month, the survey found 44 percent of respondents indicating their organizations have experienced such failures under actual operating conditions and 67 percent reported failures under test conditions.
How high can gold go?

(Mon May 04 1998 10:46 - ID#288157)
Sharefin--the Global Intelligence-China Update

Thanks for posting it; it is always interesting to bounce off their assessments. We round-eyes tend to view China as if her social and political experiences were analogous to ours. They are not. Stability is a value in China because they have had so very little of it! For all their problems, and they are legion, China still has more options available than does the West, or more particularly, the USG. {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 10:50 - ID#217239)
Haiku Error Messages for Windows 98? Only BG knows for sure . . . .

Error messages for Windows 98? :- )

Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Everything is gone;
Your life's work has been destroyed.
Squeeze trigger ( yes/no ) ?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Seeing my great fault
Through darkening blue windows
I begin again
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The code was willing,
It considered your request,
But the chips were weak.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Printer not ready.
Could be a fatal error.
Have a pen handy?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Errors have occurred.
We won't tell you where or why.
Lazy programmers.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Server's poor response
Not quick enough for browser.
Timed out, plum blossom.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Login incorrect.
Only perfect spellers may
enter this system.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
This site has been moved.
We'd tell you where, but then we'd
have to delete you.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
wind catches lily
scatt'ring petals to the wind:
segmentation fault
- - - - - - - - - - - -
ABORTED effort:
Close all that you have.
You ask way too much.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
First snow, then silence.
This thousand dollar screen dies
so beautifully.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
With searching comes loss
and the presence of absence:
"My Novel" not found.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao, until
You bring fresh toner.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The Web site you seek
cannot be located but
endless others exist
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Stay the patient course
Of little worth is your ire
The network is down
- - - - - - - - - - - -
A crash reduces
your expensive computer
to a simple stone.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
There is a chasm
of carbon and silicon
the software can't bridge
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Yesterday it worked
Today it is not working
Windows is like that
- - - - - - - - - - - -
To have no errors
Would be life without meaning
No struggle, no joy
- - - - - - - - - - - -
You step in the stream,
but the water has moved on.
This page is not here.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
No keyboard present
Hit F1 to continue
Zen engineering?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Hal, open the file
Hal, open the damn file, Hal
open the, please Hal
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Having been erased,
The document you're seeking
Must now be retyped.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The ten thousand things
How long do any persist?
Netscape, too, has gone.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Rather than a beep
Or a rude error message,
These words: "File not found."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:54 - ID#284255)
My pleasure - a different tone than usual

Kitco was down and I opened a can of worms.
I have 11 browsers open - 10 on Y2K
And one on kitco.

Lots of new news coming out.
A smelly can of worms I think

(Mon May 04 1998 10:55 - ID#222235)
No copyright on my 10:51
but my machine wasn't cooperating. Don't know who penned them. They are floating around the ether.

(Mon May 04 1998 10:57 - ID#57232)
Thoughts on the EURO and our Gold investments
All: I think Lord Rhees-Mogg ( sp? ) is uspset because of all of the compromises so typical of a committee. Perhaps a Hollander was chosen for ECB chairman because the EURO committee couldn't agree on anything. Perhaps also there is a desire to postpone any 'strong gold' talk until the European economy is stronger. Then - after the inflation to less their debt -- they bring in the gold-backed xxxx to save the day. I think only an Asian gold-backed currency will force their hand.

We do have to beware one serious item about the transition to the EURO. Consolidation of reserves from many countries to one 'country' -- the EURO will mean that less total reserves will be needed. I have no solid mathematical proof of that -- only a very strong suspicion. Now -- if those reserves to be sold are dollars, that means one thing. If the reserves to be sold are gold, that means quite another.

I think the anti-gold fiat currency spinmeisters are losing ground slowly, just as they were in the 60's and early 70's.

My guess is that our weakened gold rally will wobble for a while, and then continue to steadily rise. If Oldman is right about a s

rtrong market rally for a while, that will strength gold/gold bullion.

The only item we must watch for is a major China devaluation, and its bvearish effect on gold bullion prices. The mainland Chinese are getting nervous again about too much freedoms, with Tianamin Square and May day fresh on their minds.

Steady as she goes, but with a close watch ahead.

sharefin -- please excuse my nautical terminology -- I have been the captain of a 40' Yawl for only the equivalent of a few days at sea. Did dock one of these in a congested marina with no motor -- just the wind and a prayer.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 11:02 - ID#24135)
Is Russell Jewish .. a good question
For RJ
I trade the RSA Platinum Mines .. as you know they produce
twice as much Platinum as palladium with the Russian mines
the other way around... Sold off maybe 20 % of Platinum Mines
today as sacrificial offering.
I never discussed religion with Russell ... I dont know..
He doesnt look Jewish.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:03 - ID#426220)

Bullion and XAU both up nearly 1%

South African Golds doing much better:

(Mon May 04 1998 11:03 - ID#20135)
Well, folks what has W.B. said about his silver holdings today???

Were the rumors of his unloading his silver true???? Or were they well designed scares that manipulated the market. Somewhat like the rumors about the pretend gold sales on Friday.

Of cousre, I believe that they were lies that are heavily posted and then forgotten once their negative messages tok effect. Tell me am I correct or am I wrong?

As I remember, silver was well along its uptrend when the W.B. rumors were circulated. If W.B. is holding then silver is STILL in its uptrend and oin VERY STRONG hands.

The same holds with gold, lies and false news stories do not weaken the fundamentals of gold and silver. As has been said many times on this bb, only the true believers own these metals and their stocks now. They are in STRONG hands.

Well, I eagerly await the news from W.B. land.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:06 - ID#342315)
A.Goose re yours on W.B
You definitely have it right. Did you get a chance to read mine last night? I would appreciate any comments, thanx Charlie

(Mon May 04 1998 11:10 - ID#20135)
Date: Mon May 04 1998 11:06
chas ( A.Goose re yours on W.B ) ID#342315:

Sorry, no I haven't could you give me the rough time it was posted.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:10 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Mozel -- Right about 'judicial abatement'; An oxymoron.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:18 - ID#20135)
Remember folks, comex is a PAPER market. The only way to beat them is buy bullion ( gold, silver, ... ) , take delivery and hang onto it. Then you will be able to stand back and watch your investments soar, even as they put out all the lieing rumors, lieing news stories they want.

Look at the fundamentals. Buy low ( while you can ) and sit back and relax.


(Mon May 04 1998 11:21 - ID#31868)
John Disney - I can't resist, I just can't, really, I can't!!!!!!!
What does a Jew look like? I know I am opening myself up for a deluge of commentary from the PC crowd. I just couldn't help myself.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:23 - ID#212197)
@Pu'ukini, mozel: Lord Rees-Mogg
Date: Mon May 04 1998 08:46
Pu'ukani ( London Times Editorial ) ID#226327:
Copyright  1998 Pu'ukani/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Date: Mon May 04 1998 02:40 mozel ( @Lord Rees Moog )

Dear Sirs:
Thanks for pointing to this London Times Editorial from Lord Rees-Mogg.
LR-M is linked to the camp of old English money which is traditionally in alliance with Wallstreet's WASP faction. I believe rumors that he is financial adviser to the Queen's financial empire and those dynasties grouped around or networked together with this entity.

Of course, putting LR-M into this drawer, I take his published comment as a first sign of financial warfare of big financial blocks.

What LR-M hates most is deGaulle's concept of l'Europe des Patries ( A Europe of Fatherlads ) . Duisenberg, having the support of the Dutch and the Germans, is probably more the asset of these groups, rather than an independent European. ( But I do not know for sure ) . The Netherlands are in Europe the model par excellence of the "Sweet land of Liberty" with legalized drug dealing and all excesses of liberal rottenness. But that doesn't mean that Duisenberg falls into this category.

To keep Europe's CB independent from the influence of these international and anglosaxon bankers, I would have trusted the French cadidate more. But at the end, this personality question doesn't matter so much. What would matter would be tangible program points. We havn't heard of that yet. ( like %-gold backing ) .

My take is that most of what LR-M says could have been written in advance: he knew in advance that he would want to throw a bad image on the kick-off meeting of the ECB and EURO. I imagine, he had it all well prepared by his staff and added in a few more spices taken from the real party: the 11 hours and such.

To Mozel:
I read your post from last night to 6pak. I always enjoy to learn from you.
I know from the German legal system that they distinguish:
- Between what they call "Buergerliches Recht" which regulates private and property affairs among private citizens. These private affairs are handled at "private, semi-public" courts.
- The "Strafrecht" ( translates like "Punishment Law" ) which regulates the criminal affairs in which citizens get involved and which are handled at public courts.

As a part of the private law it is possible to create "legal persons", they are called "juristische Personen", by founding business entities which are owned by more than one person. These "juristische Personen" are not subject to the "Strafrecht". Subject to the "Strafrecht" are only "natuerliche Personen", which means real human beings. So, a "juristische Person", like a corporation, cannot violate the criminal code. Only a natural human being ( maybe acting on behalf of a corporation ) can violate the criminal code.

Does that interst you?

I don't write this because I think it is better or worse than the legal system which I can observe here in America. Actually, I do not even know how I should judge, because both systems appear quite messy and arbitrary to me. But it is easier to find kind of honest lawyer in Austria and Germany than here in USA ( in case you have the bad luck to need one. ) .

Alberich the Dwarf

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 11:27 - ID#24135)
Come to think of it..
I dont know.. and I never met
Russell anyway .. He doesnt look
Baptist either.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:27 - ID#31868)
Am I the only person following this company?

VANCOUVER, May 4 /CNW/ - Tan Range Exploration Corporation
Alberta Stock Exchange Symbol: TNX
Preliminary metallurgical test work on a composite sample from the Golden
Horseshoe Reef at Itetemia has returned exceptional recovery of 98.4% gold
from conventional cyanide leaching.
Core sample rejects from the 13 diamond drill holes completed to date
were made up into a composite sample, finely ground, and subjected to a 48
hour bottle roll test.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:28 - ID#57232)
One more thought about SEAsia crisis and fiat currencies
All: The SEAsian currency crisis certainly was well-timed in relation to the EURO launch -- but y2k wasn't. It may seem on the surface that the Europeans ( and the Western fiat currency world ) benefit the most from what is happening in SEAsia.

I am not so sure -- first because much of the money lost is European and American money -- 1 trillion or so without China's debt. Only part is Asian. Secondly, the Asians are now going through their deflationary belt-tightening, and their economies will be the better for it, despite the current hardships.

When our time comes, Asia will be much stronger economically than it is now.

By the way - I just saw a Hewlett Packard 233mHz Pentium II for $999 US -- 32 mb ram, 6mb hard disk, 56kbaud modem, 24x cdrom - and ( I think ) without VGA monitor ( $179 for 15", SVGA ) . DIMM 10 ns ram at nearly $1/megabyte.

Are computer prices going lower than this? Or, have we hit bottom?

(Mon May 04 1998 11:29 - ID#254110)
Gold Chart updates
Kitco - How often do you update the "Past Historical Gold and Silver Quotes" Chart? ( Past Historical? isn't that extra overly redundantly superfluous? ) The most recent data are for March.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:30 - ID#31868)
John Disney
I know what they look like. And they have a very dry sense of no humor.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:33 - ID#335190)
International Labour @ War, Good for Gold eh! Back to basics, Labour fighting back.
May 4, 1998
Thousands of Ukrainian coal miners on strike

KIEV, May 4 ( Reuters ) - About 70,000 coal miners at 30 pits in the former Soviet republic of Ukraine went on strike on Monday over unpaid wages, a trade union official said.

wage debts to mine workers totalled about 2.24 billion hryvnias ( $1.1 billion ) and were delayed by up to 10 months.

"It will be a difficult strike because we do not want to end our protest without a solution from the Ukrainian government to pay us our money," Volynets said.

May 4, 1998
Danish union boss sees disagreement with employers

COPENHAGEN, May 4 ( Reuters ) - Denmark's top trade union boss said on Monday that there was still "major disagreement" between unions and employers on how to find a way out of a crippling strike, now in its second week.

May 3, 1998
Australian high court rules against company in dock strike

CANBERRA ( AP )  Australia's High Court ruled today the Patrick shiploading company acted illegally in firing all 1,400 of its union dockworkers a month ago and ordered them rehired.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:34 - ID#215208)
All - You can view semi-working Kitco charts using


John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 11:35 - ID#24135)
Cool Heads will prevail
to All
those of you who were bold enough
to buy Rangy at close to a buck on
Friday did well. It trades at $1.43
today. A 40 % profit in one day.
Try compounding that.
Those of you who backed out are
sufferring .. dont fret .. money cant
buy happiness

(Mon May 04 1998 11:38 - ID#254269)
A Kitcoite wouldn't do this, would they ?
Went into my local library over the weekend to see when they expect to get their copy of "The Creature from Jekyll Island " back, so I could borrow it. Turns out that the last person to borrow it was supposed to ( get this ) return it back in mid-March ! !. The librarian says it's not unusual for popular books to NOT be returned. Obviously not a Kitcoite or a gentleman who did this !

(Mon May 04 1998 11:40 - ID#224149)
You are now on the watch list
tolerant1 Most Jews have a big hooked nose unless they went for plastic surgery and are Hollywood starsAway to see Pork chops with fried pig brains. Go Platinum Go

(Mon May 04 1998 11:40 - ID#23181)
How Much Gold is in US Citizen Control
I would like to ask how much gold this group believes is in private hands. I raise this because If there is a run on the dollar due to the Euro and our Government finds an emergency is in order and confiscates gold, What do you think the amount would be? Please note that the South Korean citizens delivered 160 toones of gold when asked. On a second question regarding platinum and palladium, are these metals so important today that they may be subject to an emergency order and confiscated, ie do to world disorder

(Mon May 04 1998 11:44 - ID#260252)
Tan Range
Tolerant1 - Gold Newsletter's been talking about TNX for the past year or so. Suppposedly looking at maybe 5-6 mil. oz. in their part of the Golden Horseshoe.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:46 - ID#342315)
A.Goose re post
It was Sun 5/3 @ 21:26. Thanx

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 11:50 - ID#384350)
JTF, Chinese Devaluation?
JTF, I say again, I see an eventual Chinese Devaluation as more in the part of competitive devaluations which in turn will allow western govts to covertly devalue their currencies by increasing their Money Supplies.

Maybe I'm wrong, but how do you see, specifically, that a chinese devaluation would be bearish for gold?

Also, why is it when Asian currencies get devalued, people say that these Asians, ( eg Indians ) , will buy less silver & gold because it gets more expensive. Would there not be some Asians who see that Gold is a good investment ( store of value ) and the rise in price just confirms that.

(Mon May 04 1998 11:54 - ID#335190)
International Labour @ War
Monday, May 4, 1998
Strikers 'greedy': Bosses

Drywallers union wants 41% pay hike
By STEVE PAYNE, Toronto Sun
A contract negotiator says a union's "outrageous, greedy demands" could topple Toronto's home-building industry.

Drywallers do piecework, currently getting 14 a square foot.

Local 675 business manager John Lewis said the union demands were fair: "Look at house sales. It's booming."

(Mon May 04 1998 11:54 - ID#31868)
Yes, but I have been following this puppy for what seems like forever, and I am amazed that the drill results have not garnered more interest. OROP as well. I feel very strongly that these two little companies will payoff bigtime. I just hope it happens well before the Y2K fiasco as I see that ruining things for a while as the financial infrastructure falls apart.

I want to cast my gold keel and platinum rudder with plenty of time to spare!!!

(Mon May 04 1998 12:21 - ID#284255)
Time to keel over
From a Scottish perspective
Since Haggis isn't here

(Mon May 04 1998 12:21 - ID#210235)
What is THE CREATURE FROM JEKYL ISLAND about and why do you want to read it? Should it be on our must-read lists? Sorry, but I missed a few days of posts recently and am trying to catch up.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:22 - ID#208393)
Another banker bites the dust
Thai central bank chief resigns
Deputy governor also steps down.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:26 - ID#254269)
@ JTF; Computer prices. If you think new computer prices are low, go and take a
look at used computers. I just happened to go into a used computer store in Dallas over the weekend and they are just about giving them away.And, these are machines that are typically two to three years old. ( 386's, 486's etc. I am a computer "newbie" and was just looking around to get some ideas for a home computer and was absolutely amazed at the prices. ( $275 for some notebooks, etc ) . Now, if I just knew what I was doing in this area ! !

(Mon May 04 1998 12:28 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Sharefin -- Your earlier posting of some Avid chatter about the Y2K thing being something the goverment does not want fixed in order to finalize the destruction of this countries freedoms strikes me as being at least close to the mark. Imagine the the time rolling over to that very second and martial law now being the 'odor', I mean 'order' of the day. Jack-boot city! Right up their alley!

(Mon May 04 1998 12:30 - ID#408147)
John_Disney: RANGY@1.43
Can't make a 40% profit if the BID is at 1.25 -- the ASK is at
$1.4x ( 1 3/8 ) -- unless you have a way of selling at the ASK price...

(Mon May 04 1998 12:34 - ID#254269)
Creature from Jekylls Island
@ Prometheus. This book, by G.Edward Griffin, is about the formation of the Federal Reserve Board and was recommended to me by some of the "old-timers" at this site. Being a real cheapskate, I wanted to see if I could borrow it from my local library ( suburban branch in Dallas area ) and was surprised to see that they have one copy ( I fully expected that they would not have it ) . Unfortunatelt, the person who last "borrowed" it, never returned it ( true story ) .
According to one of the other Kitco posters, it can be obtained from
American Media press for $20 ( ? ) at 1-800/595-6596

(Mon May 04 1998 12:35 - ID#288157)
Mozel--a question about our puzzle ( and one that only you can answer )
The Power Paradigm Shifts--Global Corporates--Mastering Global Business
What are the implicit implications to The State of corporate socialism?
Does it dillute the wine? Does it bring a 'natural-point-in-time for
devolution of power? [Realize this is a 3-volume, ( 800 pg per vol )

AllenUSA@Y2K.Watch You are a gentle and kind man with a basically optimistic nature. When viewing a giant negative lumbering down the road ( Y2K ) your expositions on the danger it represents are nonetheless animated by your basic nature. That is a BIG positive Allen! ( in other words, I meant gentle humor rather than funny ha, ha --- chalk it up to the demands of bandwidth, time and focus-
Not in NYC [Thank God] Will be dropping into the sea, according to my good friend Donald---California, There it Goes! {:- (

- {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 12:40 - ID#284255)
The last thing anyone would want - you and me both.
Seems like a NWO scenario

GCM8 volatile up a few $ then down

(Mon May 04 1998 12:42 - ID#210235)
@Thank you, Avalon
It will go on the list. The list is getting longer. Maybe we'll have lots of time for reading around Y2K. I'll be sure to stock up on books, too!

(Mon May 04 1998 12:44 - ID#230216)
# of well done postings this weekend......and I had to help TeddO move..... ( well in spirit anyway ) . Actually it was an ISP foulup. I will blame El Nio and Y2K....seems reasonable. go plat. DJ, did you liquidate and go long platty?? Has it hit bottom-o-channel?? Thong-Boy seems to think so.....YES. OK. ;- ) uh huh. go plat ( ! ) find a good wedgie.... ( mmmmm ) .


(Mon May 04 1998 12:45 - ID#288157)
Gianni Dioro__A (JTF, Chinese Devaluation?)

2Cents worth ( but they are copper pennies ) : Think we need
to view this as a regional REVALUATION...
"Money" is less a goal than a process
in some government conclaves! {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 12:47 - ID#284255)
Europe on a maniacal roll

Dow up only 65 with the tick having gone from +600 to -600
Not up 4% like the Dax

What's wrong here?
Perhaps a redistribution of wealth?

Gee poor old Asia could do with a bit of that.

Or do they prefer gold to paper?

(Mon May 04 1998 12:47 - ID#284255)
Europe on a maniacal roll

Dow up only 65 with the tick having gone from +600 to -600
Not up 4% like the Dax

What's wrong here?
Perhaps a redistribution of wealth?

Gee poor old Asia could do with a bit of that.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:50 - ID#213265)
@the scene
SDR -- One answer to that is the state of global serfdom. Some call it the global plantation. Governments become the police force for the corporations. You have one freedom left: You may choose to either do or die. A jack-boot by any other gilted name is still a jack-boot.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:50 - ID#401460)
RayZer (John_Disney: RANGY@1 3/8)

I have been trying to buy at ASK Price 1 3/8, last I checked order had not been filled; probably another markup in there for the market maker?

I will go chk and see if order filled.


(Mon May 04 1998 12:53 - ID#7568)

A time honored indicator of market strength is reaction to news. Bull markets tend to greet every iota of incoming data as being positive, while the reverse is true of bear markets.

The weekend news of the split term for the first EMU central bank president was a most bearish piece of news for the Euro. It confirmed the expectations of Euroskeptics that the new central bank will be far from an independant body and certainly subservient to national political needs.

On the news of the compromise the DM futures sold down better than 20 ticks on the IMM. This was not an especially big hit, given the extent of the tongue lashing issued from various financial commentators. Since the initial selloff the DM has climbed steadily back and now stands higher than the close on Friday, albeit by only a few ticks.

It appears that the dollar bull market is in serious trouble. News that could easily have been spun as just another stone in the castle of dollar strength has instead had no effect at all.

Dollar fundamentals continue to decay. Our trade and current account deficits appear to be growing strongly. One measure of goods trade, a difference in the NAPM survey between manufacturing imports and exports has jumped to its highest level in years, in favor of imports. Numbers coming out of SE Asia show that huge swings in the current account are occuring throughout the region. In South Korea, March trade numbers have swung into surplus by something on the order of $4 billion, against a deficit in the same period in 1997.

The two largest macro-economic factors effecting the price of gold in $US are the price of the dollar and the rate of change in global liquidity. The liquidity part of the equation appears to be improving as does the price of the dollar.

Our currency trading system which is purely mechanical, has its largest exposure in several years to the long side of the DM / $. We've got about 100 million reasons to hope this dollar weakness continues.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 12:54 - ID#24135)
Some guys are hard to please
Rayzer ..
Are you complaining?? ... Are you criticizing ?? . so make it
25 % in a day and compound that for a year .. Im not fussy ..
make it 15... Still better than not buying...
Also ADRs have big spreads. Much smaller here.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:54 - ID#212197)
@Prometheus: The Creature of Jekyll Island
This is not only the best book about the Federal Reserve System and the history of how this system was created and who the designers were. It is also a great book about the history of banking and of money and gold.

It's not just a "must read". It's a "you miss a lot if you don't read it".

Alberich the Dwarf

P.S.: I think you recently published the essay about Nemetse'. Did you?
I got completely lost reading it. I printed it and I showed it to my wife. She is an artist, a composer. She doesn't like to hear about my wild investment strategies too much because it makes her nervous. But in this case, our fascination matched perfectly.

(Mon May 04 1998 12:59 - ID#401460)

Currently @ 1 11/32
I did get it @ 1 3/8 probably a 1/16 kick back to some one - the cost of doing business on the Nasdaq.


(Mon May 04 1998 13:02 - ID#31868)
Meanwhile, back in NA mining stocks
GEO in Canada released some VERY positive news today.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:04 - ID#252391)
Thank you DA
for you comments, easily understood and logical. Tell us if you would how you measure money liquidity around the world and if you have an expectation about a Chinese devaluation.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 13:08 - ID#24135)
Gold is not really looking great.
To all
I make the friday low 302.5. I think oldman
says we'd better not close below that level..
Fortunately the dollar is weak.. I hope this
carries us through to a safe close.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:09 - ID#153102)
The corporation exists only in some legal framework. So, it seeks the highest level of legal framework and legal guarantee available as a plant seeks sunlight. The Multilateral Treaty in which several States provide mutual privileges and immunities to corporations of either would establish the corporation as a special international person, a Super Person. It is possible that by the terms of such a Treaty, a corporation operating in more than one country would have privileges and immunities greater than even a domestic corporation. International law is political law by its nature. The Corporation, having privileges and immunities granted by government, is akin to the Prince or Baron of yesteryear. Your rights, privileges, and immunities are endowed by the Creator. The corporation's privileges, and immunities are granted by government. The situation is basically feudal, political law with the Corporation CEO and attorney dividing the political and legal power which was before in the body of a Baron. When the US Corporation was made into a person in federal law by the 14th Amendment, it became an international person, because federal law is international law.

In the old days you had the Baron and his retainers as an interest group. Now you have the Corporation and its shareholders and employees as an interest group.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:11 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- See any un'thonged' heroes out there?

(Mon May 04 1998 13:17 - ID#335184)
My nomination for the best INSIDER explanation of the first 1/2 of the 20th century, including establishment of the FED, is TRAGEDY & HOPE, by Prof. Carroll Quigley. It will blow your mind. BTW, BC was one of DR Q's favorite proteges at Georgetown.
Dr. Q's book has been taken out of print, I understand the Rockafellers bought the copyrights. All copies have disappeared from my city library system, but was able to get a copy on loan from a distant rural library across the state.
I read this book every 10 years or so just to keep myself grounded in the incredible facts upon which this house of cards is based.
I would be interested to know if this vital historical treatise & unintended expose is still available at libraries across the world & would appreciate any KITCOITE feed back.




(Mon May 04 1998 13:20 - ID#339274)
FWIW wouldn't be surprised to see 90 this afternoon or tomorrow
morning.Good time to sell ... Happy trading.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:21 - ID#238295)
Pretty feeble gold rally. I remain cautious short-term. Still looking to buy significant dips. I suspect the shorts will attack again towards day's end and a close below $301 would not surpise me. Then the KITCO bulls will capitulate, setting the stage for another big move up.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:24 - ID#290118)
Caterpillars and Confiscation
Prometheus, yes winter always comes - for those of us on the polar side of 35. The fifth horseman is not a concern of those of easier climes. Many, never having had to face such times, continue blissfully along ignoring the message of the GOLDEN CATERPILLARS. Ancient lore tells us the thickness of their wool portends how long and cold the coming winter will be. Perhaps it is only due to living at icy altitudes but the caterpillars I have met recently have unusually thick coats.

Questor, Good Question - re how much gold or other PM are in private hands. The Klintonistas are quite ready and capable of trying to confiscate it. As was pointed out here earlier they would have one heck of a fight on their hands but that would only give them cause to justify going after guns too. There is much to be said for not spending money we have worked hard to obtain on goods that will be confiscated anyway - be it gold, platinum, silver, guns, ammo or canned goods. But also as was pointed out earlier here - a lot of gold coins survived FDR - caches of them continue to be found. We hope Klinton would not try; it - but in a powerplay to bait the hidden survivalists, patriot groups and gun nuts - his record shows he may very well try. God help us all!

Nick on Mon Apr 27 1998 05:35 wrote:

Every now and then I get out a five ounce bar. I hold it gently and caress it. I think of where it has been, who may have previously owned it, the hardships required to find,mine,& refine it--the fact that if I were a Vietnamese boatperson on the way to Oz, or a Jew fleeing Nazi persecution, or one of countless persons in trouble who needed value in a small, beautiful, portable package...

Squirrel on Thu Apr 30 1998 19:40 wrote:

One edict from on high can nationalize and confiscate all our gold, silver, guns, ammo, food, etc. for the "general welfare". All we have worked for will be GONE! And those of us who are known gold bugs, gun nuts and food squirrels ( because of our activity on the Net, periodical subscriptions. book purchases, and what we checked out at the library ) --- our doors will be the first ones knocked upon ( or down ) .

Digdeep on Thu Apr 30 1998 19:51 wrote:

I remember watching on t.v. about a year and a half ago or so a interview with a old jewish man who survived the death camps. He was asked why they did not fight back when they were in the getto and before, he said BECAUSE WE HAD NO WEAPONS. They made the mistake of letting the nazi's register and then confiscate their guns. Americans must remember this lesson.

Open-Loop on Thu Apr 30 1998 19:52 wrote:

I do fear your scenario in the future but I also think that if they were to call the guns alone the feds would run out of confiscators very quickly and would draw fire everywhere they showed up. The executive orders you speak of are real and could be enacted at any time. A good excuse could be Y2K. Gee the gold confiscation in the 30's worked real well huh!? There are tons of double eagles out there that should have grabbed but were not. It would be very ugly though...

Squirrel on Sun May 03 1998 01:50 wrote:

Some critters laze in the sunshine, some plan to walk through the valley of death, while the squirrels get ready for winter. Unlike tolerant1, silence {in that respect} is GOLDEN - that is how you can tell which nuts will sprout in the spring and which ones the worms will get. The GOLDEN CATERPILLARS have much wisdom to share - that is why I am here.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:26 - ID#347235)
@ Newtron, John Disney

(Mon May 04 1998 13:29 - ID#347235)
Newwtro, John Disney
Newtron , The book Tragedy and Hope by Carrol Quigley may be purchased from on special order for $40.00.

John I am willing to end the war if you are, your brother said that you are basically a nice person as do others, I am not really that hard to get along with. Maybe if we met we could talk this out.

L. Long
(Mon May 04 1998 13:31 - ID#245113)
TRAGEDY & HOPE, by Prof. Carroll Quigley
Avaliable at, $40.00. ( Or at least it's listed )

(Mon May 04 1998 13:38 - ID#390415)
WSJ Kitco Watch column
WSJ, May 4 - A quiet morning on the Kitco chat board indicates possible resumption of the rumbling bull, analysts say. "Little or no humor or cleverness, no petty sniping, the standard cryptic 'Eldorado' comments," DLJ Kitco observer Meigs Wallace noted. "Other than some decent haiku from Prometheus, which doesn't necessarily bode one way or the other for market direction, everything we see looks good for a move back to the 310 range by Wednesday."

Asked about implications of the recent EU controversy, Wallace added, "That means nothing, really. Keep your eye on Kitco, short the sniping, go long on a good clean Tortfeasor joke. If you see 8 of 10 posts in a row on Y2K, bail."

Cage Rattler
(Mon May 04 1998 13:42 - ID#33184)
Review - Tragedy and Hope
Great book - I remember reading it whilst at University of Cape Town. The book had hardly ever been read and was almost brand new - even though it had been printed decades ago.

Tragedy & Hope

by Carroll Quigley

review by Jim Martin, copyright 1994

I have been reading a remarkable book called Tragedy & Hope; A History of the World in Our Time by Carroll Quigley. Quigley died in 1977, was a professor of history at Georgetown University. He has re-emerged among conspiracy researchers because President Clinton has, on several occasions, lauded Quigley as his "mentor", in particular during his acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention. Clinton attended Georgetown and was a student of Quigley's.

The strange thing is, Quigley has long been a central figure among right-wing conspiracy theorists like the John Birch society, Christian rightists, and other cultists. This is because his main research has been into the existence of a semi-secret group founded by Cecil Rhodes in Britain. "The Rhodes-Milner Group" was a upper-crust cabal with financial and matrimonial connections to the world's most wealthy and powerful. In America their interests were fronted by the Morgans, and on the Continent things were handled by the Rothschilds. Rhodes was one of the wealthiest men on the planet, with an annual income of over $1 billion adjusted for inflation. Rhodesia was named after him, and we all know that he funded the Rhodes scholarships and that Clinton was a Rhodes scholar.

What is less well-known is that Rhodes scholarships were not set up to reward gifted students with a free ride at Oxford, but rather as one component of Rhodes' plan to create a one-world government based on British Commonwealth rules. He was actually, for those times anyway, a liberal, since he believed that the indigenous peoples within the British Empire should be given the same legal rights and political democracy as English Islanders. The function of the Rhodes scholarships was to identify future leaders, instill them with common values at Oxford, and send them back to their native colonies where they would spread these acquired traits.

Today, the "Rhodes-Milner Group" manifests itself as the Council on Foreign Relations ( CFR ) , the Trilateral Commission and other "free-trade", "one-world" organizations.

Right-wing conspiracy theorists want to believe that the Soviet Union is a creation of an International Jewish Money Cabal. They point to certain events where capitalists like the Rothschilds gave money to left-wingers and communist throughout history, but more important to them is the century-old master plan to end national sovereignty, consolidate all currency and institute the Global State. Quigley documents all this, which sounds crazy but Quigley is a insider himself, who had the opportunity to inspect the internal papers of Rhodes' group for several years and was well-connected with the various organizations in America which front for Morgan-Rothschild banking interests, such as the CFR. The whole "New World Order" idea originates with these think-tanks, which bring together leaders in the fields of finance, journalism, education and politics.

Obviously, while such groups do indeed exist, and have definite connections to the Rockefellers, Warburgs, Morgans and such, they aren't all Jewish. Yet this idea has a strong hold on people like those who publish the Spotlight newspaper. They are convinced that a Jewish cabal of usurers conspires toward world domination. Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Scientologist, or all of the above, I doubt any such group could achieve the kind of harmony of purpose to really pull anything off. Then again, I just read where US troops are now under the command of German UN commanders. And when Clinton signs the NAFTA treaty, that abrogates whatever's left of our Constitution.

I don't go for the Birchite party line that the Soviet Revolution would never have happened without timely infusions of cash from finance capitalists. That doesn't mean such transactions never occurred, however. Taken as a whole, Quigley undermines the Birchers' thesis. What's important about the book is Quigley's suffocating sense of Commonwealth democracy being little more than a tool of control for global market planning.

Let's get back to Bill Clinton and his "mentor" Quigley. Published in 1966, Tragedy & Hope would have been required reading in his class while Clinton was a sophomore. Clinton was, and is, the classic suck-butt. As a political aspirant, young Bill would have recognized the old professor's heavy-duty contacts. And if he was assigned to read Tragedy & Hope, you better believe he would have studied it thoroughly enough to ask the right questions in class, get noticed, invited to the old Prof's house for dinner. Or better yet, if he attended Georgetown before publication, he may have even helped with the research on the book ( a la The Paper Chase. ) Clinton certainly used Quigley's good graces to secure his Rhodes scholarship. All it would have taken would have been a glowing recommendation.

What's less clear: whether Clinton was aware of the significance of Tragedy & Hope to the Birchite, Christian right, and other cult groups. As Daniel Brandt points out, Pat Robertson's New World Order cites Quigley as a central reference  Rev. Pat has a whole chapter on him. Robertson's book was published before Clinton's acceptance speech, so Clinton, or some of his sharp boys, should have known better than to choose this moment to enshrine Quigley as his main inspiration right up there with JFK. ( Brandt is droll: "Reading Quigley may turn you into a student of high-level conspiracy, which is exactly what influential people around Clinton and elsewhere say you shouldn't be." ) Another place I have just noticed Quigley referenced is in William Bramley's The Gods of Eden, a sweeping tour de force about ancient ET "Custodians", the Brotherhood of the Snake, Illuminati, Masons, JFK, Jonestown ( it's all the aliens' fault, to divide us against each other and never rebel against being basically farm animals and big-game trophies ) , and this book has just been re-issued in mass trade paperbacks. And of course there's Eustace Mullins, Lyndon LaRouche, The John Birch Society, Skousens, etc. Carl Oglesby apparently based his Yankee & Cowboy War on Quigley's research. At any rate, I don't suppose Clinton was dropping a name to throw a red herring at the Birchers; nor was he tossing out a coded message Masonic handshake; rather, he was sincerely giving his due to Quigley for influencing his thinking and putting him in contact with the real power on this globe ( and maybe others, if you follow William Bramley's The Gods of Eden ) .

Tragedy & Hope is over 1300 pages long and I must say it's one of the most lively and quirky history books I've ever read; Quigley was a genius. It's frustrating: all the "conspiracy" types I've talked to complain that it's "hard to find the Wall Street Commie stuff"; but there's so much more to the book than that. The last three chapters are stunning, covering the post-war period, the Cuban Missile crisis, Nuclear Rivalry and power-politics jockeying. There is a running sub-text throughout that transcends Realpolitik, with his obsessive genealogy of wealth and power. It must be remembered that Quigley is no conspiracy nut, but rather an insider's insider, with personal knowledge of the groups he speaks of. Am I the only one who has noticed the strangest thing about the book: there isn't a single footnote? It's written in spooky Omniscient One style. But then, what's the point of footnotes when you're the official family historian of the global money cartel?

(Mon May 04 1998 13:43 - ID#26793)
Yesterday you asked about the comment by A.J. Frost. He feels that markets top at squares. 96 squared is 9216

(Mon May 04 1998 13:43 - ID#426220)
DETERMINATION OF RANGY NAV - courtesy of John Disney

STOCK Shrs,Mil.Price,RandRand, Mil

Durban Deep.5.348.16.85.57
DD Pref0.6466..2214.23
B Options.2.2012.5..5.50
Knights.21.9 ..0.25.5.48
Benco0.0751.65 .0.12
Crown..25.94..1.85 ..47.99
Randgold Resources11.253..31.348.84
Other assets.............146.26

NAV = 10.63 Rands
..Total Shares = 41.38 million


RANGY ADR's selling at this moment at $1.25 which represents
a 41% DISCOUNT from NAV

An Intra-Day Chart of RANGY may be seen at following website. Remember, it is necessary to delete the extra space in from of the word "-eagle" before pasting the following URL to your Internet locator:

(Mon May 04 1998 13:44 - ID#153102)
I enjoyed reading your views on Lord Rees Moog and European politics.

Although people in other countries talk about their "rights", I don't think they have their rights in law in the same sense as in America. The common-law rights of people in Commonwealth countries would be an exception to that. But, they have been overlaid by political law generally just as has occurred in the USA. But the rights declared in the Virginia Declaration of RIghts or those in the federal Bill of Rights are uniquely American, I think. The European law derives from the code of Justinian and has ever been political, feudal, civil law. Superficially, ( and if you appear by attorney personally ) , European and American law may seem to be similar though tort actions are unknown in Europe. But, in American law all sovereignty derives from the people and that is the foundation of the law. But, if you don't know how to have it, you don't get it. And they do not make it easy to have. They want everyone to appear in court as a corporation.

In America, government and the law presume you know the law. If you go get hearsay opinion from a lawyer, you get what you pay for. A corporation can only appear in court by attorney.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:44 - ID#31868)
squirrel, my dear friend. The Coward Erect will not try and confiscate. Period.
The hard right in the US is just starting, keyword, JUST. There will be much change in the next few months. In addition, were the Executive Order given there would be a revolution in the US. Speak with any military people lately? You will see how much respect the Coward Erect and the First Bunt Cake get.

America did not come this far to be taken so easily. Not everyone is a mushroom head. Not everyone is a militia head either.

Nope, just some plain old folks who enjoy Sunday as the Grand Mother's bake, the tiny ones cry, and everyone else is thankful. Start to take that away from regular little old us, and that thing known as America will rise up and it will not be pretty. Left alone, us regular folks are easy going and easy to get along with.

When brought to anger or if it is delivered to our doorstep we are the toughest bunch on the planet. And I do not pity the pigs going to slaughter who think otherwise.

Watching bad meat swing from a limb on Tommy J's tree.

Nuff said.

PS - For all you big, bad spies and government snoops among us, I fart in your general direction, you smellers of other people's bottoms.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:47 - ID#176200)

(Mon May 04 1998 13:49 - ID#31868)
ergo an attorney is nothing more than an extension of a thing. Yea, or nay.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:50 - ID#269409)
@ Silver to stay above $6.00?.... supply deficit again in 98
Monday May 4, 12:04 pm Eastern Time

NY precious metals higher in light trade midday

NEW YORK, May 4 ( Reuters ) - COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures were
mostly higher midsession Monday in light volumes.

``There's been a little fund buying in gold and some trade selling in silver, but with
London and Tokyo both closed for holidays today, activity has been light,'' one COMEX
floor trader said.

COMEX June gold was up $1.70 an ounce at $305.30 late morning, after trading a
$304.10-306.90 range, inside Friday's intraday range.

Support was seen around $302.50, then $300 in the June contract, with resistance $307.00
short term.

Standard daily momentum oscillators turned negative for gold again last week, and the
June contract's five-day moving-average cross back below its 20-day average but remains
above its 50-day average, suggesting the recovery trend since mid-January may still be
intact, analysts said.

In the bullion market, spot gold was quoted $303.90/40, compared to the New York close
Friday around $302.50. There was no gold fix in London Monday due to the U.K. bank

Gold prices fell sharply Friday on a report Belgium's Finance Minister, Philippe Maystadt,
may have said Belgium would sell more gold, but Maystadt later told Reuters he had been
misquoted and said he envisaged no further Belgian gold sales.

Belgium's central bank said on March 18 it had sold 299 tonnes of gold earlier this year,
reducing its gold reserves to around 300 tonnes from over 1300 tonnes in 1989.

The gold market's focus remains on the how much gold the planned European Central
Bank ( ECB ) will hold in reserves.

The weekend summit meeting in Brussels confirmed the participants in European
Monetary Union ( EMU ) and appointed the board of the ECB, but a decision on ECB
reserves is not expected until the first ECB board meeting due in early June, analysts said.

Meanwhile, COMEX July silver was up 2.2 cents at $6.175 an ounce, after trading trading
a $6.100-6.165 intraday range.

Silver prices are expected to remain supported above $6.00 an ounce, based on low levels
of COMEX stocks and identifiable bullion inventories, and prospects for another
supply/demand deficit this year, traders said

(Mon May 04 1998 13:51 - ID#31868)
Gulp to ya from Cuervo Central.


(Mon May 04 1998 13:53 - ID#23181)
??? Amount of Gold in US Citizens Hands
The purpose of this question relates to a patriotic plea from who ever is running our government. Point, If the dollar value comes under attack and it's value is measured in oz of gold, is there enough hidden gold in " circulation" or in " private hands" to provide stability if it must compete with the Euro.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:54 - ID#288156)
Ponder Point--


Adrian :
( GERMANY ) ,Gold coin is 1/2 oz .999 pure. cost=DM$648=US$363.72
or US$727.44/oz. Interesting!!!!

Mozel@Knowledge Thank you.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:54 - ID#26793)
Richter 7.7 quake off Japan. No damage

Cage Rattler
(Mon May 04 1998 13:56 - ID#33184)
Debate: A Second American Century
An article by the Council on Foreign Relations. It maintains that America owns the twentieth century and will own the twenty-first century too.

(Mon May 04 1998 13:57 - ID#213265)
@the scene
LGB -- Silver: What, no spike to 'eviserate' the weak longs?

(Mon May 04 1998 13:59 - ID#347235)
Interested parties

(Mon May 04 1998 13:59 - ID#153102)
What is the legal tender value of these coins you are pursuing. Is it the face value or a value derived from a market price of gold ?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:00 - ID#267276)
The art bell show
Tonite on the Art Bell radio show, he will have as his guest Father Malachi Martin. Father Martin is a wonderful and brilliant priest who has been on the inside of the vatican workings. He is also a exorcist and a author who has written several great fiction and non-fiction books. He will I am sure discuss the rise of satanism in this country, the new world order and many other subjects of interest. I will listen to the radio program tomorrow evening by looking up art bells radio program and clicking on to the real audio archive for may 4-5.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:01 - ID#213265)
@the scene
IF the bogus news event is what drove gold down Friday, then why hasn't it recovered the whole drop? Seems that coulda/shoulda happened at/near the open. Could it be that golds weakness is a bit more inherent at this time?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:01 - ID#26793)
We will clearly have two reserve currencies and China will not devalue says Fed Gov.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:02 - ID#347235)
Interested parties
Sorry about last, old fat fingers, the other book The Creature of Jekelll Island is available from also it is paperback, seels for 19.50 and ships in 1-2 weeks

(Mon May 04 1998 14:03 - ID#31868)

(Mon May 04 1998 14:04 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Tolerant -- Then why?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:04 - ID#347235)
John Disney
Before you jump on me for spelling, I just dont type all that well.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:05 - ID#26793)
Greenspan sharply at odds with other members of Fed Board over policy.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:05 - ID#31868)
vronsky - since I'm real bashful and all, I thought I would just tell ya
that the g o l d - e a g l e site is looking fantastic and the new SA section is great.

Gulp to ya!


(Mon May 04 1998 14:09 - ID#255217)
Help! Well-read Kitcoites...
I am interested in the book mentioned here on Kitco, Tradgedy and Hope.
It is avaiable through Amazon Books for $40, as someone on Kitco has already mentioned. But before I spend $40 on a book about which I know nothing, I would like to ask Kitcoites who know, if this is a book from which there is truly something to be learned or is it merely another treatise by some Harvard liberal on how to manipulate the masses and extolling the virtues of government benevolence toward those who are not capable of analytical thought.

The reason I ask this is because Amazon mentioned the author was a mentor ( ? ) of Clinton. This doesnt sound very enlightening to me!!!

(Mon May 04 1998 14:10 - ID#153102)
I would express it thus: an attorney is a mouth for a juristic person, a juristic person being one who has no existence outside statute and which was authorized or permitted to come into being by statute and which accordingly has no mouth of its own.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:12 - ID#288156)
Eldorado@Why --psychological warfare...every 'beating' is
supposed to break-down the ability to maintain belief --
see, it works! You articulate the question--would you have
before Friday's 'beating'?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:13 - ID#213265)
@the scene
SDR -- ??????

(Mon May 04 1998 14:14 - ID#31868)
Eldorado - it is my less than educated opinion that the financial world is looking
for stability and safety. One thing and one thing offers that. The metals, be it gold or silver. The Central Banks will NOT sell more and both of those markets are getting tighter and tighter.

The move from here is up. Yes, there may be undulations, but the moves from here will continually be up, with higher highs and higher lows.

Nobody trusts a politician. People, with the exception of the Americans, have been watching their "money" go up, then down, up then down. The gold message will catch on sooner than most think.

When a fragment of the American market money moves into gold and silver these two markets will explode. Soon now. Soon. It is getting closer each and every day, then zoom.....................


(Mon May 04 1998 14:14 - ID#57232)
Chinese Revaluation -- How tactless of me!
SDRer,GianniDioro: I must watch my politically incorrect statements -- might get in trouble with the Chinese authorities. Good thing I'm not in China on the net -- I wonder just how free the access is over there.

GianniDioro: A Chinese 'Revaluation' is inevitable, I think. Just last week the Yuan ( or Remenbi? ) was trading 7% or so less below official rates on the Black Market. And -- it looks like the authorities are getting nervous about letting Chinese form public groups of any kind. Democracy over there seems to be weakening somewhat. That with the high likelihood of yet another Chinese cyclic 'boom' going 'bust' -- makes me think that something is up.

Gold: My concern is not with the mainland Chinese authorities selling gold -- they probably will not for any reason. My concern is with Hong Kong, or other SEAsian countries, if China 'revalues' I doubt that gold will go below $280/oz, but it might dip down there if China revalues significantly. They do not have alot to lose, as they are so big the 'jilted' investors will come back later for the opportunity to trade with China. And -- most of the debt is foreign sponsored. Gold will be an excellent buy after the dust settles.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:16 - ID#31868)
Argent - bring your friends close,
your enemies closer.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:16 - ID#288156)
Donald~Thank you for that heroic catch re: China's "d_________" {:-)
although one suspects it will not end the big "d" stories {:- (

(Mon May 04 1998 14:17 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Tolerant -- Still does not answer why gold did not easily recover from the bogus bad news, much less do it at all.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:20 - ID#31868)
Eldorado - for every question there is not always an answer.
Accept that it is moving up and the day is not yet over. Each breath brings changes.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:22 - ID#288156)
Mozel--Coin's value
It is the market price set by the Euromint in DEM; the
face value of the coin is in Euro --

(Mon May 04 1998 14:22 - ID#213265)
@the scene
It looks more like 4 steps downward and two back up. Whoopy.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:26 - ID#255217)
OOPS! Sorry!
Just came across Cage Rattler's review of Tragedy and Hope. I don't know how I missed it. In a hurry, I guess. Still am. My apologies to all.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:28 - ID#269409)
@ Squirrel.....Gold..Why Own it.... Confiscation?
Squirrel.... Yes, I realize that with guy's like Kosares peddling fear of confiscation ( to the gullible ) as a reason to sell their wares and such, that many are misled about the chances of a confiscation. Now, tell me who penned the following words re the wonderfullness of owning Gold??

Government Guarantee

What truly sets American Eagles apart is that they are the only bullion coins whose
weight, content and purity are guaranteed by the United States Government. Investors
can buy them with confidence, knowing the coins contain their stated amount of gold. In
addition, long-term savers can include American Eagles in their Individual Retirement
Accounts ( IRAs ) .

Investing in Gold

Ever since its discovery 5,000 years ago, gold has been treasured for its unmatched
luster, beauty and intrinsic value. Today, gold continues to enjoy widespread appeal as
an investment and storehouse of value. Gold is an internationally recognized monetary
and financial asset held in reserve by major governments. It is so rare that all the gold
ever mined could fit into a cube measuring just 20 yards on each side. Most importantly,
gold can play a significant role in diversifying an investment portfolio, since it can move
independently of stocks and bonds. What's more, gold is a tangible asset - one whose
beauty and artistry you can literally hold in your hands. When purchased in the form of
legal tender bullion coins, gold can be affordable, as well as easy to buy and store. The
gold bullion coins purchased by more Americans than any other are American Eagle
Gold Bullion Coins, produced by the U.S. Government through the United States Mint.

Easy to Buy and Sell

An important measure of any investment is its liquidity: How easy is it to resell? United
States Government backing means that like the dollar, American Eagle Bullion Coins are
accepted in major investment markets worldwide. They are also the most widely traded
bullion coins in America, affording investors narrow spreads between buy and sell prices.

It's easy to track the value of American Eagles. Most major newspapers report the daily
price of gold. An American Eagle's value is based on the price, plus a small premium to
cover coinage and distribution costs.

You can purchase American Eagles from most major coin and precious metals dealers, as
well as brokerage houses and participating banks. They are minted in four weights -
1/10, 1/4, 1/2 and 1 ounce - to fit a variety of budgets. The smaller sizes also make
affordable and thoughtful gifts.

Purchase your Gold American Eagle Proof Coin now!

Squirrel, do those appear to be the words of folks who are terrified of personal Gold ownership as we read here so often? Folks who even now are "conspiring" to git yer Gold from ya???

Those wonderful words re Gold, are brought to you by your Dept. of the Treasury website / Government mint telling you all those great reasons to own Gold, especially Gold coins produced by your U.S. of A. mint at the following URL

Confiscation? Uh huh.....and the moon is made of Platinum which we'll be mining shortly....

John Disney__A
(Mon May 04 1998 14:28 - ID#24135)
Choice of weapons
For RT ( and brother Oris )
Considering your proposal .. Perhaps I may scale
down to low level guerrilla harassment .. sniper fire
from the hills kind of thing .... Can you suggest
optimal weapon Brother Oris ?? No one can be as
unrelenting as a Sephardic Jewish in-law.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:30 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Metals stock indexes I have found do lead the metals movement. If by todays action they spell 'relief', I would have to say not. Perhaps 'relief' you of your assets. But, tomorrow is another day. And as I said before, I AM looking for a very nice entry point to purchase more physical.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:33 - ID#433142)
I agree with your 13:44 post ENTIRELY. As a former resident of Wisconsin and currently living in Pennsylvania, I assure you that any attempt by the government to confiscate ANYTHING would be met in those two locales with armed rebellion - and I do mean ARMED. Both WI & PA possess "vast hordes" of hunters and believe me, their affiliations with the National Rifle Association and other "right to bear arms" proponents is not soley out of their concern over hunting restrictions. Hunting, in fact, is probably second in importance to the ability to defend themselves, and ANY attempt by Clintdong or any other agent of government to "emasculate" them would be, to say the least, confrontational.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:33 - ID#288156)
Mozel, All

According to the Germans, the "price" of gold is somewhere
around $600/$700 an ounce...

Oanda's converter on Sunday gave this 'info'--
USD = 0.003298...303.214
ECU = 0.003654...273.673
DEM = 0.001848...541.26
CHF = 0.002209...452.694

ONLY the USD and CHF quotes are based on ACTUAL sales...
all others are based on something vaguely referred to as
dollar average or some such...

JTF is certainly correct about "dust"! {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 14:36 - ID#252391)
"after the dust settles"
gold will be a great buy, exactly when will that dust be settling, I'd like to know. And the big move into silver and gold by investors with assets elsewhere when is that likely to start happening??? These are old hat arguements for gold and silver.

Over the weekend I asked for any senerio that would make gold go up that would likely occur. I got three good answers: ( 1 ) the bankrupcy of a "gold bank, what ever that is and whenever that might occur, ( 2 ) weakness in the dollar which hasn't had any effect on gold yet, and ( 3 ) increases in global liquidity which I'm trying to get an answer on as to how to measure that little item.

Gold tanks $12 in a week and starts this one off with a $2.10 rally. I said last night we'll see 70 XAU before $308 gold. There is nothing that will likely happen in the near future that will rally gold. Falling equity prices didn't do it, rising equity prices aren't doing it, oilgoing up on Friday didn't help and the prospects prices will fall. The dollar may weaken agaist the Mark - good for Mark speculators, but it will gain against the yen. The Asians are not increaseing their gold purchases they are decreasing their gold purchases. And no more centrla bank sales - ha! you haven't been keeping up on your reading. There indeed may be more bank gold selling and possibly compressed into a tight window before early June.

The announcement that a six year old will sell gold out of his piggy bank would knock this market for a loop.

$304.20 - what does it take - watch the selling tomorrow come in on a higher opening once London is awake.

Aragorn III
(Mon May 04 1998 14:38 - ID#212323)
8th anniversary of Latvia signing their Declaration of Independence
How does this relate to gold, you ask? It proves that the world CAN be set right, it just takes time. Let's hear it for the underdogs!

(Mon May 04 1998 14:38 - ID#153102)
"The Law hath not been Dead though the Law hath Slept."
You can purchase a Law Course for $250.00 from R.D.J. Botty, Common Law Researcher, at W4013 4th Ave. Spooner, Wisconsin 54801 phone 715-635-9569. There is a web site, but I don't have the URL.

I also recommend the law material from Behold!. That doesn't mean I'm recommending their religious views.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:39 - ID#228100)
6pak - Drywallers Union
Maybe someone can explain why economists admire billionaires ( Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, et al ) for making their fortunes. But when some construction workers ask for a raise, immediately it's "inflationary" and "bad for the economy"... If the construction companies are extremely profitable, why shouldn't they share it with the workers? ( It's interesting to note that these workers paid by a Unit Rate, and not hourly. )

(Mon May 04 1998 14:41 - ID#254269)
Really Dumm Question. (Re Executive Orders)
I know; this may be a really dumb question. If an executive order were to be passed how does it happen ?
Does the Prez need the approval of the House and/or Senate or does he just "go ahead and do it". The question is not meant to provoke in any way; I am just wondering how an E.O. comes into existence.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:41 - ID#288156)
Price of Gold?

Note that Oanda's Sunday Dem quote has gold at 541.26 per ounce.

The Euromint coin is 1/2 at 648 DEM.

The price of gold, Mozel asks...

Beats me!

(Mon May 04 1998 14:43 - ID#238295)
Eldorado: As Carl has pointed out the XAU is very highly valued relative to bullion. I am not at all surprised that it failed to rally today along with POG. And the fact that bullion recovered only half of Friday's bogus "Belgian Gold Sales" drop does perhaps signal we are not yet out of the woods.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:44 - ID#213265)
@the scene
jims -- could it be that this 'rally' today was because one of RJs puts stop-loss got hit? Nah. His are probably a little further up. How 'bout someone mistakenly bought today thinking Fridays low was all of it. Well, if so, they'll probably rectify that tomorrow. Or maybe one of the floor-traders lost a coin and had to replace it. That's probably a more reasonable explanation given todays so-called 'performance'.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:47 - ID#57232)
Father Malachi Martin, Zero Point Energy
digdeep: Thanks for letting us know. Father Malachi Martin always has interesting things to say. I find his comments about the Vatican and the next Pope rather disturbing to say the least.

All: One little tidbit on the ZPE business. It seems that the ZPE, existence proven by the measurement of the Casimir effect, is the 'Aether' Einstein and Michelson were looking for. It is also the source of the primordial creative energy of the Universe, and this matter creation/destruction from the Aether still seems to be happening at a low level -- probably the source of the 'dark matter'. One reason the Aether was so hard to find is that it cannot be described by Classical Physics -- it is a 'Quantum Superfluid', in analogy with Helium III, etc. This reborn Aether has momentum, but is chargeless, and massless, and is viscosity-free. It is also fairly tightly attached to matter, so that one cannot accelerate without the other. This much I understand so far.

Once we understand the quantum superfluid properties of the Aether, we will be able to detect it more reliably, and manipulate inertia and gravity. Then the stars will be ours.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:48 - ID#230216)
it warms my cockles....uh huh.
To know that D.A. and his 'system' are in line with my 'system' with regards to Mr. Mark. I have not 100 mill reasons but it is a substantial amount of my trading account. Yes, this Mark will rise more.


And Gold? Hmmmm....haven't a clue......plat is good food though....not knee deep any longer....I am belly-button deep..........and it feels goooooooooood.


away...for a time, YES.


(Mon May 04 1998 14:48 - ID#7568)

To get a handle on global liquidity, just take a look at growth rates for broad money supply throughout the world. US M3 growth is around the 10% level ( annualized ) , Japanese M3 growth has jumped to near 5% from 3% average growth in 1997, and French M3 growth has jumped to the 4.5 to 5% range from contraction as late as last September.

These numbers have no direct effect on gold prices but do influence the price of assets in general. So far it has been true that the asset prices which have been bid higher are stocks and bonds. Sooner or later, it is likely that this bidding process will find its way into the precious metals complex. Certainly the action of Warren Buffett is a perfect example of how a very small change in investment attitude can bring about a very large change in asset price.

There is nothing in the macro economic stuff that gives any clue as to what is going to happen on a short term basis. It is however useful in devining where big changes might take place over longer periods of time.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:49 - ID#269409)
@ GoldBugs....3-2-5
Where's Bernatz van Hepcat to say "3-2-5" over and over again when you really need him?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:51 - ID#269409)
@ JTF / DigDeep... is the pope catholic?
But what I want to know is..when and where will father Guido Sarducci be on?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:51 - ID#288156)
Question #1--

Under what authorization, and from what Central Banks, came
the gold and silver to mint the Euro coins?

(Mon May 04 1998 14:51 - ID#249285)
Gold... A bottom?
As I posted several weeks ago. Gold will make a bottom near the end of April then rise till the second to third week of May. Just my opinion based on my take on the cycle.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:54 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Avalon -- EOs are not 'passed'. That's why they call them EOs. The Pres. writes them and either makes them executable immediately, or somtime in the future under certain circumstances. I have heard of at least one the Klinton wrote the the legislature couldn't even get a look at! Oh yes, Lincoln wrote the first one after the southern legislatures walked out at the beginning of the war of northern aggression. And I'll just bet that Mozel could do the whole topic a whole lot more justice than I can.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:56 - ID#153102)
My question is not POG. My question is, if these Euro coins have a legal tender value, what is it ? If they are minting coins of gold and have established by statute that the legal tender exchange value of those coins is their face value, then that is news. It means the Euro is an amount of gold.

(Mon May 04 1998 14:59 - ID#269409)
@ JTF...the next Pope
OK, I'll be serious for a moment, is the father you're taking about, the same one who believes that Pope John Paul is the last of the true Christian pope's and that the next one will be part of a "New Order" Apostate, false religion, controlled by the Anti Christ?

(Mon May 04 1998 15:05 - ID#26793)
Vacancy announced on Fed Board

(Mon May 04 1998 15:06 - ID#224149)
Take two pills around 310
Phzer Announces new Gold Inhibitor Pill Take one ---When you feel Gold can do no wrong ---Away to find those secret agents hiding at Kitco.

Cage Rattler
(Mon May 04 1998 15:09 - ID#33184)
@Aragorn III - Latvia banking better than South Africa, Russia, Mexico
The credit rating for Latvia has been established by Standard & Poor's. A

triple-B rating was assigned to Latvia's long-term foreign currency

debt, which grades them slightly above such countries as Greece and Hungary, and well above Russia, Mexico and South Africa. The single-A-minus rating has been assigned to long-term local currency debt, which ranks Latvia alongside other advanced transition economies like Hungary and Poland, which have the same evaluation.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:12 - ID#269409)
@ ENMD ..up 340% in ONE DAY !!
Gold stocks, schmold stocks...up and down a percent or three here and there..who cares? Sell Gold, buy drugs! First I missed Phizer/Viagra and now this ....sheesh!

(Mon May 04 1998 15:13 - ID#208393)
W. Buffett & Silver
OMAHA, Neb. May 4  Multibillionaire
Warren Buffett says hes still bullish on
the silver market  despite occasional
rumors that hes been selling his cache.
And the legendary investor says hes
still having trouble finding stocks worth

(Mon May 04 1998 15:14 - ID#340302)
I'm Sorry, LGB...
...but there will be NO gold report from your old buddy, F* today.

Very little action leaves me with nothing to say other than...

Doowah Doowah




(Mon May 04 1998 15:14 - ID#344308)

suicides of those who truly does show....the truth
c'est horrible! just wait.....those who be-moan the supposed
doom-sayers, they will scream the loudest as the beast devours
their financial legacy....toilet paper for all, for all time.....
the hunters nose knows the difference between a red herrring both
on paper, and in the water......which will it be? the truth is is gold......time for more gold calls tam bien....

the train of seasonality....the grains.

what is the question?
the answer is cocoa....

you s&d'rs will love this.....cocoa going to the moon due to
the dispensers dying of malaise....takes 5+ years to grow a
cocoa tree to where it will begin producing other precious..
the chocolated one will cost an arm and a leg before this
scenario plays out over a FIVE YEAR PERIOD.....ahem...ALLABOARD...
long term call options are looking very sweet.....

cherokee!; ) ...driver-of-the-smoke-signal-mobile--fatimmmf.wooo.woooo.wooo

(Mon May 04 1998 15:17 - ID#153102)
mozel (@SDRer) ID#153102: Natural Person, "international person"....
Date: Mon May 04 1998 13:09
mozel ( @SDRer ) ID#153102:
The Corporation, having privileges and immunities granted by government, is akin to the Prince or Baron of yesteryear. Your rights,
privileges, and immunities are endowed by the Creator. The corporation's privileges, and immunities are granted by government. The situation is basically feudal, political law with the Corporation CEO and attorney dividing the political and legal power which was before in the body of a Baron.

When the US Corporation was made into a person in federal law by the 14th Amendment, it became an international person, because
federal law is international law."

Obviously the American law makes a difference between:
1 ) A "natural person", which is a human being, let's agree we consider it "god made" and grant it all rights, priviledges, and immunities of the American constitution.
2 ) A legal entity, which is formed on the volontarily entered contractual agreement of two or more "natural persons" as descibed above, to undertake something together, like buying a house, running an enterprise, anything.

In most continental European countries #2 ) is called a "legal person" and legally distinct from a "natural person".

I don't see why such an entity is "government made" and "international".

I don't see the problem and the consequences, when you say:

"When the US Corporation was made into a person in federal law by the 14th Amendment, it became an international person, because
federal law is international law."

On the one hand, it seems o.k. to me to allow people to enter contractually based entities, and to protect these entities in some legal way. I don't see why such an entity should be called "government created". It is man created, by the participants.
It is created based on an agreement between natural persons. However, it is a new type of legal entity, which has not the characteristics of a natural person.

Does American law treat such an entity like a "natural person"???

alberich the Dwarf

(Mon May 04 1998 15:20 - ID#26793)
Beware of Costa Rican gold and other antiquities.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:21 - ID#269409)
@ Farfel...Gold Report
Yes, pretty tame today. At the risk of redundancy, I'd say this is a market that is "As before" rather than "Not as before", YES???

(Mon May 04 1998 15:24 - ID#257136)
Newtron-m Re: yours of 13:17.
I read subject work 20 plus years ago, when I was active in the Freedom Fight. I was horrified then, as I am still angry now about the premise of the book.
At that time it was difficult to convince any one to read it. Even those who considered themselves Patriots would only read a few pages and then put it aside. I have yet to meet any one face to face who can establish in my mind ( through conversation ) that they have actually read, let alone understood the book.
Once one has read it in its entirety ( perused would be better ) one will have enough knowledge that the antics of our elected "servants" will be understood.
Everything which transpires in Wash. D.C. is merely a piece of the fraudulent tapestry being woven to suck us all into slaveey to the elite of the planet.

Having understood the book and its premise, I was not surprised to learn that Quigley was the mentor of the Arkansas he-slut currently residing in the White House.
Sure wish all the Kitco posters would locarte and read the book!

I will now attempt to locate a copy, since it seems the elitists don't want the truth to be readily available to we the Sheeple.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:24 - ID#153102)
@Executive Orders
They date from George Washington who wrote one creating federal districts which overlapped the states with the exception of I think Rhode Island and another state that were put in the same district. This was for federal taxation administration.

Power in the federal Constitution is divided among the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial departments. The Executive is not a law making department. Its orders must either be authorized by law or indemnified by a bill of appropriation or of law. The Supreme Court is an international tribunal which accommodates the requests in suits and prosecutions of the Executive and the enactments of law of the Legislative to the Constitution insofar as possible. Executive Orders do not in and of themselves have the force of law.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:25 - ID#286250)

The Austrian site plainly states:
Die Mnzen sind gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel

The Euromint says nought....

(Mon May 04 1998 15:25 - ID#290118)
Treasury vs Klinton
LGB - the Treasury and Klinton are not necessarily on the same page. One may be more rational or budding tyrannical than the other. One that giveth may also taketh away. What better way than to sucker people into buying what the gov't has given away ( as per other posts ) .

(Mon May 04 1998 15:25 - ID#290118)
Treasury vs Klinton
LGB - the Treasury and Klinton are not necessarily on the same page. One may be more rational or budding tyrannical than the other. One that giveth may also taketh away. What better way than to sucker people into buying what the gov't has given away ( as per other posts ) .

(Mon May 04 1998 15:49 - ID#31959)

The Austrian site plainly states:
Die Mnzen sind gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel

which means I believe :" the coins are legal tender "

(Mon May 04 1998 15:57 - ID#287193)
...Oh....o-ho..? did you not know?

INSIDER trading is a persistent headache for the
Johannesburg Stock Exchange ( JSE ) , which it is trying to

It is well known that there has never been a prosecution
for insider trading in SA, despite dealers and even JSE
staffers admitting - albeit off the record - that share
dealing based on privileged information happens
regularly, if not daily.

The reasons given for this nonexistent track record are
inadequate legislation and chronic staff shortages at the
Securities Regulation Panel which is at present
responsible for investigating such activity.

The difficulties of policing SA financial markets is notthe
only problem the FSB - which is set to take over the
monitoring and prosecution of insider trading - will be up

The FSB will have to confront the culture of SA's
financial markets which accepts and almost encourages
insider trading.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:57 - ID#347235)
The book is available from by special order for 40 inflated dollars. Agree with all you said about it. I tried it out in college and only skimmed it to get a grade. The book and its premise is disgusting.

(Mon May 04 1998 15:58 - ID#31959)

The Austrian site plainly states:
Die Mnzen sind gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel

Which means, I believe:" the coins are legal tender !"

(Mon May 04 1998 16:02 - ID#20135)
OK guys, let's make this simple for A.Goose ... what is this leading us to:
The Euro mint values gold at ______ ( fill in the blanks mozel/SDRer ) .

Date: Mon May 04 1998 14:56
mozel ( @SDRer ) ID#153102:
My question is not POG. My question is, if these Euro coins have a legal tender value, what is it ? If they are minting coins
of gold and have established by statute that the legal tender exchange value of those coins is their face value, then that is
news. It means the Euro is an amount of gold.

Date: Mon May 04 1998 14:51
SDRer__A ( Question #1-- ) ID#288156:

Under what authorization, and from what Central Banks, came
the gold and silver to mint the Euro coins?

Date: Mon May 04 1998 15:25
SDRer__A ( Mozel--Sorry ) ID#286250:

The Austrian site plainly states:
Die Mnzen sind gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel

The Euromint says nought....

Date: Mon May 04 1998 14:41
SDRer__A ( Price of Gold? ) ID#288156:

Note that Oanda's Sunday Dem quote has gold at 541.26 per ounce.

The Euromint coin is 1/2 at 648 DEM.

The price of gold, Mozel asks...

Beats me!

(Mon May 04 1998 16:04 - ID#20135)

Thanks lady-bug. So Mozel, your take on this is ...

(Mon May 04 1998 16:06 - ID#238422)
John Disney
My weapon of choice for shooting from behind
the hill would be Russian MN91/30 Sniper, can
hit target "long and hard". But....please, brother,
please, come down, it's clear now that Retired
Soldier wants peace and that firearm discharge
was purely accidental...Show your class...

(Mon May 04 1998 16:07 - ID#254269)
@ mozel; Executive Orders
Thanks for your posting but if E.O's do "not in and of themselves have the force of law" ( your words ) , what is their basis for enforcement? Or am I trying to look at this, from too simple a viewpoint ? Thanks for any further comments.

(Mon May 04 1998 16:09 - ID#194311)
JTF...quantum superfluids?
beware the power of the vortex.....

where order and chaos will always balance.

(Mon May 04 1998 16:19 - ID#287193)
The EURO Burger.....are you hungry...?

Should you be hungry and want a big 'MAC'
In one of the EURO countries and have Euros
This is what you pay:
1,62 Ir. Pfund
2,06 Euro
440 Escudo
2,26 Euro
365 Peseten
2,26 Euro
4500 Lire
2,36 Euro
5,45 Gulden
2,53 Euro
4,90 Mark
2,55 Euro
36 Schilling
2,67 Euro
17,50 fr. Franc
2,69 Euro
109 belg. Franc
2,76 Euro
19,90 Markka
3,47 Euro

They say the price of the Hamburger may change but,
Not the relationship of the currencies.

Aragorn III
(Mon May 04 1998 16:28 - ID#212323)
C.R. --Thanks for rattling my cage with Latvian info.
As a strategically located country, Latvia would not need to rely on natural resources for her wealth. Having year-round ice free ports on the Baltic Sea would privide ample opportunity for the country to prosper on the back of a shipping business where the fees are reckoned as a tiny bit o' gold. Good honest money, just like mining...

(Mon May 04 1998 16:29 - ID#153102)
 1998 ALBERICH__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Date: Mon May 04 1998 13:09
mozel ( @SDRer ) ID#153102:
The Corporation, having privileges and immunities granted by government,
is akin to the Prince or Baron of yesteryear. Your rights,
privileges, and immunities are endowed by the Creator. The corporation's
privileges, and immunities are granted by government. The situation is
basically feudal, political law with the Corporation CEO and attorney
dividing the political and legal power which was before in the body of a
When the US Corporation was made into a person in federal law by the
14th Amendment, it became an international person, because
federal law is international law."
Obviously the American law makes a difference between:
1 ) A "natural person", which is a human being, let's agree we consider
it "god made" and grant it all rights, priviledges, and immunities of
the American constitution.

*** Endowed by the Creator means not granted by you or me or any man or set of human beings whether they call themselves a government, a council. a legislature, or any other thing. This is totally alien to Europeans. It is totally alien to people in Commonwealth countries who are ruled by royalty by divine right. American law is based on the proposition that the divine right is equal to all, not endowed just to the Queen of the Netherlands or England or to the King of Spain.

2 ) A legal entity, which is formed on the volontarily entered
contractual agreement of two or more "natural persons" as descibed
above, to undertake something together, like buying a house, running an
enterprise, anything.

***A legal entity is not formed when you and I contract. A legal entity is not formed when I put a sign out front that says STORE. It's my store. A legal agreement is not a legal entity in the same sense that a corporation is spoken of as being a legal entity. A contract cannot appear in court period. It is interesting that in admiralty law, however, Ten Bales of Cotton can be sued "in rem".

In most continental European countries #2 ) is called a "legal person"
and legally distinct from a "natural person".

I don't see why such an entity is "government made" and "international".

***Agreements are not government made. That is why liberty of contract is secured in American Constitutions as a right. Rights are not granted in American Constitutions. They are secured there. A corporation is chartered by a government. Men and women are not chartered by government, nor are their rights endowed by government. If it is from government, it is not a right even if they use that word to denote it. If it is federal, it is international, because the federal was granted power by the States to be an international legal entity. The terms of the grant of power are in the federal Constitution.

I don't see the problem and the consequences, when you say:
"When the US Corporation was made into a person in federal law by the
14th Amendment, it became an international person, because
federal law is international law."
On the one hand, it seems o.k. to me to allow people to enter
contractually based entities, and to protect these entities in some
legal way. I don't see why such an entity should be called "government
created". It is man created, by the participants.

***Man created and government created are the same thing. What man or government can give, they can restrict or take away. Those are the consequences. Government in Europe can "allow" people to contract. In America, government is established to secure liberty of contract. Corporations have no liberty of contract. Any they have has been granted by statute. A legal entity that has a life in the law independent of its creators and that is not chartered by government is called a pure contract Trust. The oldest common-law trust in America is the American Land Company, the contracts for which were prepared by Patrick Henry. ( You see anti-trust blah blah was more about taxation than anything else. )

It is created based on an agreement between natural persons. However, it
is a new type of legal entity, which has not the characteristics of a
natural person.

***Says who ? The civil law that sets up "natural person" and "juristic person" can equate their rights, privileges, and immunities. That is what has been done in the various Codes which now pass for law among attorneys in this country.

Does American law treat such an entity like a "natural person"???
alberich the Dwarf

***American statute law ( which is Codified by Law Revisor attorneys and then cited as law in courts ) does by the rule of ejusdem generis equate the flesh and blood man with a corporation. You say, "But I'm a natural person." But, many statutes say ( in legal word art ) that a "natural person" is a juristic person just like a corporation. If you don't know gold is money, you will take paper. If you don't know you are not a corporation, you will be governed as one. A sole corporation consists of one party. If you conduct yourself according to statute as a sole corporation, you establish yourself as a corporation de facto and thence de jure. An individual appears in court with or without a given standing in a given set of legal circumstances.

(Mon May 04 1998 16:39 - ID#238422)
Retired Soldier
One more element of the peace process, if possible, please.
I think that my brother John is still kind of upset because
you called him "b-word", you know, pretty bad word...and you
did it in public. My brother is a proud person with some
kind of attitude and style which remindes me the Russian
Imperial Army Officer - death is better than lose of honor.
My brother, as evidence demonstrates, is in no way this
"b-word".. More than that, considering his wife's roots,
he is just a hero in the eyes of any Jewish and even
non-jewish man.

Do you think it would be possible for you to recall this
"b-word" and show your own class by delivering your, let
me put it in this way, regrets on using this "b-word" in
regard to my brother? He is really a nice guy....

Thank you in advance.

(Mon May 04 1998 16:43 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.24 This is not a new high. Converting this number to pre 1934 dollars we have the Dow at 625.06. Relating that to the comment by A.J. Frost that the market tops at squared numbers let me point out that 25 squared is 625, and 96 squared is 9216. That is within a few points of the Dow priced in current dollars at the close today.

(Mon May 04 1998 17:09 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .283 The 50 day moving average is .250

(Mon May 04 1998 17:09 - ID#238422)
Retired Soldier
One more element of the peace process, if possible, please.
I think that my brother John is still kind of upset because
you called him "b-word", you know, pretty bad word...and you
did it in public. My brother is a proud person with some
kind of attitude and style which remindes me the Russian
Imperial Army Officer - death is better than lose of honor.
My brother, as evidence demonstrates, is in no way this
"b-word".. More than that, considering his wife's roots,
he is just a hero in the eyes of any Jewish and even
non-jewish man.

Do you think it would be possible for you to recall this
"b-word" and show your own class by delivering your, let
me put it in this way, regrets on using this "b-word" in
regard to my brother? He is really a nice guy....

Thank you in advance.

(Mon May 04 1998 17:13 - ID#317193)
A. Goose/SDRer/mozel-answer the silver question
Ok bright people, if the Euro gold and silver coins are not just mementoes, but represent the future of the Euro as being convertible to gold and silver ( fat chance I know ) where the heck to the European CB's get all the silver. Not much held that I have ever heard. We all know about the gold held, but how much silver?

If these CB's hold little silver the theory gets shaky unless silver has been bought in the last few years with this purpose in mind. Question, however, from whom?

Does my neighbor WB know something we do not? Hell, I love pure speculation! This may not, however, be just pure speculation.

Find out if they have the silver and you will answer your question-me-thinks, Yes?


(Mon May 04 1998 17:18 - ID#347235)
@ Orris

(Mon May 04 1998 17:21 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 48.80

(Mon May 04 1998 17:26 - ID#153102)
@A_Goose et. al.
If the Austrian mint says these coins are legal tender, then let's sask the mint what statute authorized them to say that and read it.

Aragorn III
(Mon May 04 1998 17:30 - ID#212323)
Excerpt from a Reuters report today
"Treasury will still be selling securities but it will auction fewer of
them than it pays off, with the result that government debt will fall by
an estimated $110 billion in the second quarter." --Isn't that mighty generous, to retire mature securities like that? What else should we be expecting to occur? Duh.

a la Sonny and Cher "...and the beat goes on..." la de da de da...

(Mon May 04 1998 17:39 - ID#347235)
Sorry the last one didnt take, my server is giving me trouble. If that is what is required I will take back whichever B word you mention, I think it was bigot and also putz. This is dragging on like Netanyahu and Arafat. But I am willing to try.

(Mon May 04 1998 17:44 - ID#339274)
FWIW Silver displayed a positive price action in line with
its seasonal cycle,the target is 7.80.

Mr. Mick
(Mon May 04 1998 17:48 - ID#345321)
Indonesia getting hotter........
Indonesians Rush To Fill Up on Gas

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA Associated Press Writer

JAKARTA, Indonesia ( AP ) -- Thousands of cars packed gas stations
across the country today to fill up their tanks before government-ordered
price hikes swipe another slice of Indonesians' already-pinched earnings.

Police took up positions at some stations to keep the lid on public anger
following the government's decision today to roll back subsidies that have
long defrayed the costs of everything from fuel to bus fares.

The move fulfills Indonesia's promise to the International Monetary Fund,
which is holding the pursestrings for a $43 billion bailout package. But
President Suharto's government is in a very uncomfortable spot -- caught
between pledges to impatient overseas lenders and Indonesians staging
protests over inequities in the country's faltering economy. Student leaders
vowed today to intensify near-daily demonstrations aimed at bringing
down Suharto.

``Life has become more difficult, and people here are becoming poorer,''
said Edi Joko, a car salesman. ``The power holders just relax since they
have more resources than people like us.''

In cities and provincial towns throughout Indonesia today, thousands of
cars clogged the streets to buy fuel before the 71-percent increase takes
effect Tuesday. Traffic jams in Jakarta, the capital, stretched for dozens of
blocks. Some gas stations ran empty.

``I'll stay until my tank is full, even if I have to wait for hours,'' said Imam,
a motorist waiting at a gas station near the presidential palace.

Aside from the gas hikes, kerosene will become 25 percent more
expensive starting Tuesday, said Minister of Mines and Energy Kuntoro
Mangkusubroto. City bus fares will go up as much as 67 percent, and
train and ferry tickets also will rise nationwide.

Electricity prices will jump by 20 percent later this month, with further
increases in August and November, Kuntoro said.

The announcement is sure to please IMF officials, who have been
adamant about a thorough overhaul of the economy in the face of
hemming and hawing by Indonesian officials. In fact, IMF director Michel
Camdessus said in Singapore today that he has proposed that the IMF
board, scheduled to meet later in the day, restart disbursement of aid to
Indonesia, a largely Muslim country of 200 million people.

The United States also was encouraged. ``We hope they will continue
and consolidate this progress,'' Stuart Eizenstat, U.S. Assistant Secretary
of State for Economic Affairs, said in Washington. ``There seems to be
increased seriousness in implementing the package.''

For rank-and-file Indonesians, however, the price cuts are the latest
painful reminder that their once-rising standard of living is only falling these

``I need three cans of kerosene a day,'' said Muhamad Sidi, a
42-year-old food vendor. ``It'll mean trouble for me because my income
is not going up, it's going down.''

University students said in interviews they would step up demonstrations
against Suharto, the 76-year-old former army general and president for
more than three decades. In sometimes violent rallies, they have
demanded Suharto's ouster and a lowering of prices of basic
commodities. Prices have soared in recent months in response to the
plunge in the country's currency, the rupiah.

``Suharto does not consider the reality of people suffering because of the
crisis,'' said Faizil Assegaf, organizer of a protest Monday at Mercu
Buana University in Jakarta.

Police fired tear gas today at rock-throwing protesters on campuses in
Medan and Palu. At least 30 students were injured in Palu, the official
Antara news agency reported. The protests had been scheduled before
the announcement of the price hikes.

About 200 students gathered late in the day at a campus in the city of
Surabaya. ``Bring down the prices,'' they shouted.

Peaceful rallies were held in Jakarta, Yogyakarta and other cities.

Eizenstat urged the Indonesian government to respect the protesters' right
to demonstrate. ``We have cautioned restraint and patience,'' he said.

Government officials had said previously they would drop subsidies
gradually, and many observers had not expected the big jump in the price
of gasoline, which will increase from about 36 cents a gallon to 60 cents a

Finance experts contend that if Indonesia is to right its economy, its needs
to eliminate the subsidies that create economic inefficiencies. They also
have been pushing Suharto to end the special treatment extended his
family and friends.

Aid had been suspended because of worry that Suharto was dragging his
feet on such politically tricky reforms.

(Mon May 04 1998 17:56 - ID#31868)
Mr. Mick - I say we chip in and send Camdesuss a one way
ticket to Indonesia. Whaddya think?

(Mon May 04 1998 18:06 - ID#280245)
Cutting through sludge--which you admit is next to impossible {:-)
Went to the FF 500/75 Euro, which is absolutely a legal tender coin

Stck ( Gold ) 500 FRF/ 75Euro, 22K ( 1mm ) = 3440 FRF or $553.86
Gsvr Bs;ir 500FRF/75 Euro
Purity 920/1000
Diameter 31 mm
Weight 17 g
Price FRF 3.4000; AST 5.000 ( 5/4/98 EX = 553.86/398.80

This information pieced together from 5 sites--the 3 most informative

That is, one a legal tender coin containing 17 g of gold,
the price--NOT included VAT is

3440 FRF for 17 g of gold....or....$553.86 for 17 g of gold...

(Mon May 04 1998 18:06 - ID#344308)

donald @1643 & all your other posts...

YOU ARE THE MAN...damned connections occur when giants are around....

cherokee.....................standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-looking-backward-------to-see-forward...chaos and flux...are moving to your neighbor-hood......they be's boyz in the hood.....

heavy armor = slug gun....300gr@100yds@1-1/2" pattern.....$450.
it will pierce BOTH doors of an automobile, and you better not
be on the other contemporary hand-gun will EFFECTIVELY
penetrate even one door, much less need a sabot slug.WHOP!

(Mon May 04 1998 18:08 - ID#411331)
@all: The Belgian Central Bank has sold all but about 200 tons of its gold reserves.
The question I would like answered is to whom did they sell it? Did they dump it on the spot market, or was it another 'transfer' between CB's that was 'called' a 'sale'? Is there any way to find out? Is it possible that much of this gold went to mint the new EURO gold coins as
shown on their web site?

(Mon May 04 1998 18:12 - ID#290118)
Book: Tragedy & Hope
Self-censorship regarding reading material. I try to not restrict myself to books that agree with my views. It often helps to know what the other side is up to, what they believe, what may be driving them. Yes, it may be disgusting - but I try to grit my teeth and swallow nevertheless.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:14 - ID#252127)
Last Veneroso Conference Call transcript given Mar 24,

(Mon May 04 1998 18:18 - ID#288295)
SDRer, mozel, A. Goose, TYoung, anybody else...
I fail to see the logic of your claim that the Euro is gold ( or silver ) backed, since they may be issuing so-called legal tender coins in gold / silver with a face amount in Euros.............Help me out here....does the US do this? Yes - a $50 golden eagle or a $1 silver eagle, which they will trade you for 6 or 8 times the face amount in their paper...does this mean that the US$ ( sorry, the FR $ ) is gold / silver backed?...No....Same story for any number of countries who issue so-called legal tender gold / silver coins.....none of them, except maybe the Swiss ( as far as I know ) , have gold or silver currency backing unless you make the distinctions of a two-tier system, where gold money circulates in parallel with paper money.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:20 - ID#280245)
Price is a function of PLACE?
Coins will not be freely circulated until 2002...that is the target date at any rate

Stck ( Gold ) 500 FRF/ 75Euro, 22K ( 1mm ) = 3440 FRF or $553.86
Gsvr Bs;ir 500FRF/75 Euro
Purity 920/1000
Diameter 31 mm
Weight 17 g
Price FRF 3.4000; AST 5.000 ( 5/4/98 EX = 553.86/398.80
Legal tender

That is, one a legal tender coin containing 17 g of gold, the price--
NOT included VAT is

3440 FRF for 17 g of gold........or.......$553.86 for 17 g of gold.........

What is the price of gold? Does the price of gold depend on georaphy,
as does whether or no a bill is counterfeit?

(Mon May 04 1998 18:20 - ID#194311)
yen going to 160...china yuan to follow
HONG KONG, May 4 ( AFP ) - A new 20-percent fall in the value of
the yen, with many observers predicting the Japanese unit's plunge
to 150-160 to the dollar, would put huge pressure on China and Hong
kong to defend their currencies, a senior economist said Monday.
"Sentiment is very negative. A 20-percent drop would be very
significative," said Miron Muskhat, vice president and economist at
Indocam Asia.
"If the yen were to weaken significantly, it will present China
and Hong Kong with more difficulties," he told members of the
American Chamber of Commerce here Monday.
In his scenario all the currencies in the region from the South
Korean won to the Thai baht and the Taiwanese, Australian and New
Zealand dollars would follow the yen in a new downward spiral of
The pressure on the yuan and the Hong Kong dollar could become
difficult to resist.
Even if the yuan is not fully convertible, the reappearance of a
black market in the dollar in China signals that it is not
completely isolated from the outside world, Muskhat said.
"My belief is that China will not devalue unless forced to do so
by forces beyond its control" such as a new fall in the yen.

Charles Keeling
(Mon May 04 1998 18:22 - ID#344225)
@ RHODY RE: Belgium sale of GOLD
The BIS handled the sale and it went to five
member CB'S for an average of $305 an ounce which was
higher than the present spot price by a few dollars.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:24 - ID#335184)
Can you expand on the fundamental significance of your 16:43 ?
When you post in such ellipsis you give too much credit to lurking grasshoppers like moi !




P.S. Also many thanks for the E-mail RE MACROGOLD REPORT.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:31 - ID#288295)
I understand the other side of your quest, to determine the real price of admirable task, with which I have no problems ... {;^ )

(Mon May 04 1998 18:34 - ID#17796)
Silverbaron-not a claim but a question-I think

(Mon May 04 1998 18:34 - ID#347235)
John Disney
Enough already! Orris has tried very hard on both our behalves to end this, if I need to say I am sorry for calling you a bigot ok SORRY, also for calling you a Putz, but thats not really bad after all a Putz is a mans pride and joy right? Since I found Viagra its better than ever!

(Mon May 04 1998 18:40 - ID#57232)
Weekend Euro meeting not well received in Europe

(Mon May 04 1998 18:41 - ID#28861)
The Euro coins that will be circulated are.....base metals.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:43 - ID#255151)
Y2K Examples of Problems Which Have Already Occured

Favorite example-- Some people over 100 are getting mail sent to their homes advertising pablum.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:45 - ID#288295)
TYoung, SDRer
TYoung...Yes, I understand that you were also questioning the assertion....I only included you by association.SDRer....the real price of gold ( at least for me ) is what I can buy it for - I bought 200 gold Francs - that's ( 10 ) 20 Franc Belgian coins, this morning and paid $ can do the math.

Charles Keeling
(Mon May 04 1998 18:46 - ID#344225)
Has everyone already seen this? If so---
please excuse. Brought up a new computer and I
missed a couple of days.

(Mon May 04 1998 18:48 - ID#280245)
Silverbaron--you are right! We are trying to view something a little different....!

Silverbaron--you are ABSOLUTELY right! I, for one, would make no
such claim! Nor, I believe would Mozel or Goose, but haven't read all

I am merely seeking to discover what the world price of PHYSICAL Gold might be...and it doesnt seem to be what the paper price of gold is...{:- ) We did become quite interested in the Euro's coinage, namely
because it includes a silver coin and a gold coin...that's all...{:- )
No, repeat no, position on currency's backing, reserves etc.--at least
not yet! {:- ) )

Charles Keeling
(Mon May 04 1998 18:48 - ID#344225)
@ THE SCENE RE: missing data
Still not used to the BIG screen. I fumbled on the
paste in my last post....

Single Currency


"a fist full of fudges"

THE credibility of the European
single currency was undermined
last night by a welter of
recriminations over Tony Blair's
handling of the chaotic Brussels
summit which ended in a fudged
deal over who should head the
new central bank.

Money markets across Europe
are braced for a volatile session
today amid fears that the euro's
standing has been compromised
by political interference. Downing
Street dismissed accusations
from other European leaders that
the Prime Minister - who chaired
the summit as the current EU
president - had not done his
homework for the crucial meeting
to launch the euro.

But the sour mood around
Europe over the traumatic birth
of the new currency was in
marked contrast to the recent
acclaim Mr Blair has received
for his success in brokering the
Good Friday agreement in
Northern Ireland and helping to
set up today's Middle East peace
summit in London.

London's stock market will be
closed for the May Bank
Holiday, but thousands of
currency dealers have been
drafted into the City to trade on
international markets in the wake
of the decision to allow 11 EU
currencies - but not sterling - to
join the euro on Jan 1. Dealers,
business leaders and politicians
across Europe are worried that
the unseemly wrangling in
Brussels, which lasted until the
early hours yesterday, will have
damaged confidence in the
independent management of
economic and monetary union.

After 13 hours of argument, a
weary Mr Blair announced a
compromise between the rival
French and Dutch candidates for
the post of president of the
Frankfurt-based European
Central Bank, which will set
interest rates across "Euroland"
- the 11 countries participating in
the single currency.

Wim Duisenberg, 62, the Dutch
candidate, was appointed to head
the bank for the first eight-year
term. But there are fears that he
will be seen as a "lame duck"
president because of a promise
that he will step down half-way
through his term.

President Chirac of France
pressed for a written assurance
that Mr Duisenberg would quit
after four years to be replaced by
Jean-Claude Trichet, 55, head of
the French central bank. This
was resisted by Chancellor Kohl
of Germany on the grounds that
it would contravene the
Maastricht Treaty, which
stipulates that the bank president
must be appointed for an
eight-year term.

Eventually, Mr Blair persuaded
Mr Duisenberg to appear before
all 15 EU leaders and their
finance ministers to assure them
that he intended to stand down of
his own accord in the middle of
2002 - after euro notes and coins
are introduced - to make way for
the Frenchman. But Mr Blair
faced seething resentment among
other EU leaders for allowing
what had been intended as a
high-profile launch of the new
currency to be overshadowed by
horse trading.

Jose-Maria Gil Robles, president
of the European Parliament, who
stormed out of the summit in
protest on Saturday, likened the
Bank to a malformed baby and
said he had "no doubt" that the
agreement breached the spirit of
the Maastricht Treaty. Romano
Prodi, the Italian Prime Minister,
said Mr Blair had been
"ill-prepared" while Jean-Claude
Juncker, the Luxembourg
premier, said he had not
sufficiently briefed some fellow
leaders on the proposed deal.

Downing Street officials
dismissed the criticism, claiming
that Mr Blair had spent hours
with the summit's leading players
averting a full-scale clash, which
could have resulted in both Mr
Duisenberg and M Trichet being
vetoed, wrecking the currency's
launch. Mr Blair's spokesman
admitted that it had been "very
difficult" but denied that there
had been a "fix", saying he had
achieved his objective. The
blame lay with other delegations
who had not made up their minds
before arriving in Brussels.

But Euro-MPs were warning
within minutes of the deal being
done that it could be illegal, and
the European Parliament might
seek to oppose the appointments
to the bank's board next week.
The first real test comes on
Thursday when Mr Duisenberg is
questioned by Euro-MPs. The
Parliament has consistently said
it wants a president for eight

Although it cannot block the deal,
a vote against would embarrass
EU leaders and provoke a further
crisis of confidence in the euro.
The deal could also face a
constitutional challenge in
Germany, where there is concern
that it is against the spirit of

William Hague said the "near
farcical wrangling" did not augur
well for the future of the single
currency. "There has been a
fistful of fudges. Economic
fundamentals have been blithely
ignored." Kenneth Clarke, the
former Chancellor, hailed the
agreement as "the most
important political movement in
Western Europe since the end of
the Cold War". But he accused
the French of behaving badly and
said Mr Blair had given in to

Gordon Brown, the Chancellor,
defended Mr Blair's handling.
"I'm satisfied that we got,
eventually, the decisions that
were right both for the project
and for Britain in Europe as
well," he told Radio 4's The
World this Weekend.

The London Telegraph, May 4,

(Mon May 04 1998 18:49 - ID#201238)
comex data

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for May 4
Gold 658,493 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 90,157,654 + 442,282 troy ounces
Copper 105,896 - 641 short tons

(Mon May 04 1998 18:53 - ID#256250)

Date: Mon May 04 1998 18:49
arden ( comex data ) ID#201238:

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for May 4

Copper 105,896 - 641 short tons

Arden, do you think copper is giving us any leading indications?

(Mon May 04 1998 18:56 - ID#288295)
SDRer, mozel, A.Goose, TYoung

If I overstated your positions on the Euro coin issue, please forgive - I got the impression from mozel's 14:56 that this is the way the conversation was going. My sincere apology.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:02 - ID#256250)
Date: Mon May 04 1998 18:48
SDRer__A ( Silverbaron--you are right! We are trying to view something a little different....! ) ID#280245:

Maybe we should have comex change from bars to "droopy" stylized bars and sell it jewelry prices. Think about it, a gold coin, melted down and made into ? number of rings is worth 2 to ? times more in value. Certainly not because of the labor required to make it into a ring.

People are willing to pay outstanding prices for gold, but the working stock is kept at a low price. Well, I say drill a hole in that coin hang it on your neck and double its price.

Gold has value, to many people and governments want it. In volume, it is circulated in very small elite circles ( from which little or no information is exposed ) .


(Mon May 04 1998 19:10 - ID#289419)
Die Mnzen sind gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel
Spread the word in every language you can!

The coins are legal tender.

Les pices de monnaie sont lgale monnaie lgale

Le monete sono moneta a corso legale

As moedas so legal encarregado

Las monedas son moneda de curso legal

Da coins is good maman

To bad this is fact. If it was a rumor gold would take off

They will do everything they can to hold gold down now. They dont want you to know what backing the Euro has yet because the Gold price would take off. They need to accumulate at the best prices they can for production of these coins among other things. We all need food but we sure dont want to see grocery prices go up. Europe needs the gold for their plans. Once they have the amount they need my guess is that they wouldnt mind seeing gold prices take off. This plan for the Euro could be devastating to the US dollar. Would they be that cruel to America, supposedly the country with the most military mite.

America wont go down without a fight. It may mean that the US has to revalue its Gold reserves to thousands/oz if it has any. The last major war was the cold war. Will the next major war be the currency war?

But what about Asia They wont announce any plans for their new currency if in fact they are working on a unified currency. America is their friend. They can sell everything to America right now. They will just export their way back up. Why do you think Japan is so slow with their economic stimulus package? We sell the farm to America then we introduce our own unified currency.

Now what happens when the US dollar is not so popular? Will Europe and Asia buy our products? Wait a minute what products? Americans are consumers. A lot of their companys production is now overseas. I guess the US will just have to learn how to produce again. If you travel throughout the world you get the sense that people feel that Americans are spoiled and snobbish. But yet those same people would love a chance to live in America and experience the lifestyle. Its like that spoiled rich kid down the block who has everything and you hate him, but you sure wouldnt mind being him.

Im sure Europe and Asia are tired of this spoiled rich kid called America. Oh sure America may have the greatest military in the world but the US will get hit where it really counts. The dollar Im sure the negotiators for Sadam knew this and tried to convince him of it. Never mind killing and taking on the US military Sadam. Hit them where it really hurts their dollar, their economy. You know first hand what a devastating economy means. Throw some support to the Islamic Dinar. Work on an Oil for Gold deal. Thats the way to get back at the US. This could be most likely what all the negotiators calling for a peaceful solution that went to see Sadam were pushing for.

OK so what happens when Europe and Asia get to be the rich kid on the block and America is learning how to produce again? Americans will be brought back to reality. Maybe There will come a time when real values will emerge once again and the greatest concern isnt the presidents sex life or the Jerry Springer show. Maybe It sure wont happen without a lot of turmoil. Change does not always come easy. But it is a necessary change that has to happen if America and Americans are ever to be brought back down to earth.

Throw in some Y2K problems and who knows. Prepare yourself now for change and find a nice comfortable quiet place away from society where you and your loved ones can watch the clock roll over to the year 2000. Then come back after the chaos and help rebuild your community and some good old fashion American values.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:10 - ID#288295)
A. Goose
I suspect that quite a number of the folks who visit this site have been exploiting the weakness in the 'paper gold' trading by purchasing gold in many forms - bars, coins jewelry etc...for the present, the 'paper gold' market sets the price of gold....AND IT IS TOO LOW! Buy all you can and salt it away.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:16 - ID#28594)

1. I have consistently maintained two positions:

a. that golds constituency was in the East

b. that Europe would have to be dragged, kicking and screaming,
to anything approaching a Gold Standard.

2. The awareness of a Gold Euro was, understandably given the above
position, a surprise, and a curiosity.

a. For two days I have nosed around

b. I do not yet know what is True and what is rumor and what
is dust and what is an out-and-out falsehood.

3. What factual evidence I have found, I have presented for your
evaluation. OK? {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 19:16 - ID#43460)
from the investor formerly known as 223
Sharefin, I'm sorry, but I still disagree about the nature of the next recession. IMHO, if the US democratic party gets back in power it will be by virtue of voter turnout among two classes, those with inherited wealth and those of the welfare class.

If this occurs There will be a sharp rise of "entitlement" spending, an increase in 'protective' regulation, taxation and disencentives for production. Inflation will follow, but it will be driven by nonproducers. IMHO

The Republicans are changing though, with more socialists entering their ranks, so it is a tossup if they gain power. IMHO

(Mon May 04 1998 19:19 - ID#26793)
A.J. Frost is a one of the original Elliott Eave Theory guys, he is a Canadian, now in his late 90's. He made the point years ago, and again recently, that the most significant market tops happen at numbers that have even square roots. A close today at 96 squared would have been perfect. That is 96X96=9216. We did not get that but I noticed that the Dow/Gold ratio did meet that test. Our close today, in pre 1934 dollars, was 25X25=625. Time will tell if it was important.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:20 - ID#28594)
Silverbaron--Not a problem {:-))
You have golden credits here...
and sometimes I may, in the excitment of the chase, not
be as clear as I need to be...
There is SOMETHING here however...real, tangible, and
HIDDEN by clever obfuscation...

(Mon May 04 1998 19:23 - ID#288295)
You do exceedingly good work, my friend. Keep it up. I wish I had your energy and persistence, to go after it as you have.BTW - I am told the Islamic Mint Gold Dinars should be offered soon in the specifics yet.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:26 - ID#43460)
CEF, a pleasant surprise!
This gold and silver holding company took an upturn today. I bought some last winter when they were selling at a discount to the metal in their vaults. And it has just chugged away since. IMHO

(Mon May 04 1998 19:33 - ID#288295)

Congrats on the name transplant - I likes it! The wifey came up with a new one for me today as well - told me I was coming down with Half-heimers disease...sort of one step beyond C.R.S...

Mr. Mick
(Mon May 04 1998 19:34 - ID#345321)
Tolerant1 - just got your message re: Camdessus
The Indonesians would eat him up alive. Did you ever send him the vet bill for giving your dog the crud?

(Mon May 04 1998 19:34 - ID#215208)
The trouble with channels charts, is that once they are drawn, it appears that price movment will invariably fall within the channels forever. Having been lulled into complacency by this a couple of times, and having been burnt, I am always looking for signs that the channels I have drawn are either not correct, or that trends are changing. This week there are many signs that the channels I have been using may not continue to be valid.

Before I start, let me note that I have no London closing data for Monday May 4. Either it wasn't open, or Kitco didn't post the closings. I suspect the former, as I can't find any other references to the closings. So, I estimated what they might have been, by spot action in the States. Finally, the last data point is the closing spot price in the States. I did this, rather than waiting for tomorrow's London afternoon fixes, because those of you that pay attention to these channels charts should be alerted.

Gold - As previously mentioned, I was very surprised that gold did not reach the top of the channel that I had defined, before starting back down. This has caused me to question the validity of the channel. I looked for an alternative, and found one. This channel is shown in dotted lines. The channel top is defined by the last two tops, and the bottom is defined by the low earlier this year. This is still an upward channel, but allows gold to fall to around 290, whereas the earlier channel bottoms out just under 300. Of course, at present, gold is still holding within both channels, so we won't know which is valid ( if either ) until the POG touches one extreme or the other. Personally, I finally decided to hedge my bets and took profits on roughly half of my gold stock holdings. Now I am kind of hoping that the new channel applies, as I will be able to buy back at much lower prices.

Silver - Who knows? I'm not really confident in this channel. But it's my best guess. I'll want to see where the other metals are headed before I bet big on silver.

Platinum - EB, just so you won't feel quite so comfortable standing in platinum "up to your belly button", it appears to me that there is a good chance platinum will break through the channel bottom and head down. In fact, it appears that the breakout has occured already. However, I lack confirming London data. Just in case, I have shown an alternative channel in dotted lines. This channel heads steeply downward, and allows platinum to drop to 370-375, depending on how quickly it gets there. I started questioning platinum when it failed to make a new high when palladium went to the sky. I saw this as very bearish action. Then platinum fell through the previous support in the low 400's like it wasn't even there. Now platinum is pushing the channel bottom, while palladium is still quite high, though falling. I just can't see platinum rising while palladium is falling, and I do expect palladium to fall. Then there is today's anemic action. Platinum failed to break yesterday's high, but made new recent lows. Though the closing was a bit higher than yesterday's, this action looks weak to me. One other point. Look at the head-and-shoulders pattern in SWC. Looks classic to me. Personally, I had tight stops in place, which PL hit today. I'm out. I'll wait to see which way it is going. I'd say the odds are 60/40 that its heading down, but we'll soon know. I may either go long again or short as early as tomorrow

Palladium - What more can they say? On rumors that PA deliveries from Russia might be further delayed, PA started down, not further up. Then the rumors started that the Norilsk mine in Russia is depleted, and there may be no shipment at all. PA continued down. Maybe the next rumor will be that there never was any PA in Russia. In my opinion, PA must make a correction, at least back to the 240-250 level. However, with the margin requirements somewhere in the range of 17,000-20,000 per contract, I'll watch. My main interest is PA's influence on PL.

(Mon May 04 1998 19:38 - ID#288369)
@Treasure Island.....fine pirates, all of us!.......Yo! Ho! Ho! and a bottle of ?........
RUM! I hope to believe that this here sturdy and motley crew has weathered yet another treacherous wind. A Toast To Ya Mateys! Set the sail for our New Bootyful Island!

(Mon May 04 1998 19:40 - ID#238295)
From Kaplan today. Apparently many financial industry honchos have a much more cautious view of the market than Oldman and are cashing out. The next few months should be interesting indeed!

THE ENVELOPE PLEASE-My award for best mainstream financial writer for the past few years is no
contest-it goes to Floyd Norris, whose Market Watch column can be found on the bottom of the first
page of the Sunday New York Times Business Section each week. Along with the occasional sober
article in Barron's Weekly, Mr. Norris is the only major-media reporter who consistently, intelligently,
and entertainingly points out the flaws in the new era brainwashing perpetuated by the media who are
virtually owned by the mutual fund holding companies and major brokerage houses through their
advertising dollars. In his column on May 3, Floyd Norris notes that "An odd dichotomy is developing
in American financial markets. The managers entrusted with investing cash are keeping their clients'
money fully invested. But when it comes to their own investments, they are taking a slightly [I love the
sarcastic understatement in the word "slightly", which really means "completely"] different course. They
are selling. 'We're seeing a wave' of money manager deals, said John Downing, a Goldman, Sachs
partner who focuses on raising money for financial companies. Why now? 'It's the valuations,
predominantly', he said." [In other words, they're cashing out while the getting out is good. Who do
you think is going to come out ahead in the end-these well-informed, well-heeled industry professionals
who are selling, or the horde of little investors who are throwing money at equity funds? There's an old
saying among poker players: If you don't know who the patsy [neophyte loser] is at your table, then
YOU'RE the patsy.]

(Mon May 04 1998 19:41 - ID#57232)
Storm clouds gathering in Indonesia, SEAsia

I think a China devaluation is inevitable. Hong Kong very nervous about all 42 or so listed Mainland China corporations becoming insolvent due to 'dead' mainland chinese national banks. Having a profitable mainland Chinese company is irrelevant if your assets are in the wrong bank.

Mike Sheller -- any news from your connections?

Jin -- How are things?

(Mon May 04 1998 19:44 - ID#43460)
DJ re channels for XAU?
'Jes curious. If you were to draw channels for this index, where would they lead?^XAU&d=1ym

(Mon May 04 1998 19:46 - ID#215208)
PA Correction
Oops. That trendline is really steep. Let's say I look for a correction in PA back to the 270-280 level. Maybe lower. This trendline has to break eventually!

(Mon May 04 1998 19:54 - ID#26793)
We are having a strange mixture of both inflation and deflation

(Mon May 04 1998 19:59 - ID#215208)
XAU channel
gagnrad ( alias 223 ) - I look to find a straight line of tops or bottoms. In this case I would use the tops. Looks like we have roughly 3 in a line. Then I would draw a parallel line that encompasses the recent lows. Actually there are also 3 lows that more-or-less fall on this line. This makes a decent channel, sharply rising. However, it predicts we could well see XAU around 80 in the near term. This is right around the 50-day moving average.


(Mon May 04 1998 19:59 - ID#43460)
Thanks re name change. Tell your wife she's an astute judge of men's characters. Scratch that, try astute judge of characters period. :^ )

Interesting press release here. I've been looking at this stock for two years and in retrospect can't ever say why I didn't buy any. Halts-heimer's perhaps?

(Mon May 04 1998 20:00 - ID#31868)
Mr. Mick -
No, the dishonorable lout denied having relations with my dog. However, waiters the world over, have agreed to put sawdust in his food no matter where he eats. The secret order of the Wooden Spoon can get to any one, anywhere.

We are a splinter group.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:05 - ID#26793)
IMF says any Western country interest rate rises will hurt crisis countries.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:10 - ID#26793)
The U.S. Treasury is awash in cash from stock market profits.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:14 - ID#153102)
Can ( and will ) you inquire of the parties who are selling "euro" gold coins with the statement that they are legal tender to direct you to the statute ? So we can read it.

The face value and legal tender value of golden eagles are completely unrelated.

The specifications for base metal "euro" coins were last updated 2/97.

It does occur to me that the only "currency union" which could possibly succeed without "political union" would be one in which gold was the currency since it is apolitical.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:17 - ID#186456)
I thought POG will pick up today ?
What happened folks ?

(Mon May 04 1998 20:17 - ID#287129)
Recently I read a book by James R. Cook entitled "THE GREAT GOLD COMEBACK." It has some very thought-provoking information.

I am very interested in some intelligent opinions regarding the veracity of the information contained in that book. Would those of you who have read Cook's book care to comment on it? ( ...I almost wrote "the Cook book" and then realized the pun. ) On page 119 he quotes a prediction that gold will rise to a minimum of at least $3,000 per ounce.


(Mon May 04 1998 20:19 - ID#26793)
Malaysia says IMF can't dictate to us. (but then tells Japan what to do) Go figure

(Mon May 04 1998 20:23 - ID#215208)
gagnrad - In the XAU channel I drew, the current XAU level is roughly mid-channel. This tends to lend weight to the lower ( new ) of the two gold channels I show in the channels chart. In this one POG is also roughly mid-channel. Interesting.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:25 - ID#348286)
@Y2K Y2K Y2K and F* the Shorts
HeHeHeHe: "Rocket scientists were using two-digit dates in navigation and communications satellites launched as recently as six years ago."

Year 2000 complacency about to end
RICK ACKERMAN May 3, 1998

As the threat of a global computer meltdown in the new millennium bears down on us, one should expect to see growing signs of nervousness in corporate board rooms and on Wall Street.

Yet in both places, optimism and cool confidence evidently still prevail. With 607 days to go, business executives are saying they will be well prepared, come hell or high water. And investors have largely ignored warnings of disaster to plunder the shares of companies touting a quick fix.

Just last week a doctor friend of mine called with a hot tip about a publicly traded firm called Egan Systems. He said he'd heard their software can reduce the so-called millennium bug to a harmless pest in scant hours.

I cautioned him that there are dozens of Egans out there, each with an enticing story to tell investors. Hardly a week goes by that I don't hear about some new ones.

But if any has a cheap, easy cure, it is unknown to the approximately 300 corporate systems managers and CIOs I have spoken with over the last two years concerning Year 2000 ( Y2K ) issues.

Most have either been replacing entire hardware and software systems, or using tools developed in-house to painstakingly root out the faulty lines of code that will trip computers into thinking the year 2000 is actually 1900.

The mayhem this is certain to cause was all but ordained forty years ago by programmers who sought to save then-precious data-storage space and speed up mainframes by stripping two digits from the date in their operating systems.

Neither they nor their successors evidently cared much that the computers' internal clocks would revert to 1900 after midnight on Friday, December 31, 1999.

Now, some consultants believe that when the new millennium dawns, this seemingly innocuous oversight could trigger massive failures in America's power grid and water supply, disrupt manufacturing and distribution of goods, shut down stock markets all around the world, and bring chaos to our banking, transportation and communication systems.

One of those who is convinced this scenario is not just possible but likely is Larry McCarthy, CEO of San Jose-based Ascent Logic, a systems-engineering company that is working with some of the country's largest firms to prepare them for the worst.

For McCarthy, rewriting faulty code, an approach being taken by many companies, is destined to fail. A Ford or a General Motors might just as well attempt to eliminate ants from all of their lunch rooms, assembly plants and employee parking lots.

Instead, McCarthy is advising such corporate clients to decide which parts of their business they want to keep operational no matter what. For some vehicle manufacturers, to take one example, this might mean producing and distributing only trucks - which yield the fattest profit margins - when auto production lines have been hobbled or shut down.

A major player in risk-management technology, Ascent has long worked with aerospace contractors and the military on non-Y2K issues. More recently, the company was retained by two large insurers, Marsh & McClennan and Lloyd's of London, to evaluate applications for Y2K policies.

Some of the biggest and most reputable companies in America have thus far failed to qualify, according to McCarthy, because they still lack a credible Y2K remediation strategy. Moreover, within two or three years it's possible that a few such companies will fail, he says.

Why believe McCarthy, who stands to benefit financially from the spread of fear, when hundreds of corporate managers say they've got everything under control?

There are a few reasons. First, it is becoming clearer with each passing month that businesses have greatly underestimated the glitches that will likely bedevil them when they start testing their supposedly debugged systems between now and early 1999.

Most seem to think this will be a romp down the home stretch. According to McCarthy and some others, including a famously alarmist professor named Gary North, testing will be the most challenging, costly and time-consuming part of the work.

From here on out, predicts McCarthy, most companies will be so deeply immersed in unanticipated Y2K problems that spending on new software and hardware will practically cease.

If so, the trend should show up first in the Nasdaq 100 Index, which contains many of the technology stocks that have led the bull market for most of this decade. The index has been moving steadily higher since early January, and recently notched a record high near 1,295. It closed Friday at 1251.53; after a 30.09 point drop Monday, the Nasdaq 100 clawed its way back over the next four sessions to end the week with a 1.39 point gain.

Here are a some other reasons why complacency should not be trusted:

*The embedded microprocessors that run most of our machines are not just hard to find, but too poorly documented to fix.

*Some utility companies estimate that ten to fifteen percent of their generators will blow in the early days of the new millenium, all but assuring triage among business and residential customers.

* Corporate executives really are getting nervous. But with 20 months to go, why risk spooking shareholders by going public so early with their fears?

* Asia and Europe have barely started to address Y2K problems and risk being "locked out" of compliant systems elsewhere - or contaminating them.

* Government lags well behind industry in replacing antiquated mainframes, which harbor most of the buggy code.

* Every law firm in the U.S. of any size has organized a Y2K team in anticipation of legal settlements that estimates put as high as $1.3 trillion.

* Rocket scientists were using two-digit dates in navigation and communications satellites launched as recently as six years ago.

* Software "repair" factories are dying for lack of business. For all their talk about spending hundred of billions of dollars to fix Y2K glitches, companies that are planning to rewrite code evidently have barely gotten started.

Of course, no one can predict with certainty what will happen in 20 months to something so complex as the global "cyberecology." But it is hardly reassuring that the chances for a happy outcome rest on the assumption, as one optimist put it, that "if everyone diligently does the work, the significant and high risk will not be felt."

"Everyone" may not be up to the job.

1998 San Francisco Examiner  PageD 1

(Mon May 04 1998 20:27 - ID#317193)
A. Goose/SDRer/tolerent1-SILVER me-thinks
The silver is your key. Get off of the gold approach. Open your minds eye. Look at the cost of a silver Euro coin versus spot. Now look at gold. What see thee?

Who has silver, that is the question? US has gold-no silver! Again, who has silver and gold? I do not know any of these answers but I suggest that your quest ends when you answer the question of who has the silver! Soros? Buffet? Think my friends, think!


(Mon May 04 1998 20:33 - ID#45173)
@gagnrad You're right on the money
The reason the manufacuring-based middle class has put up with wage stagnation for the past 20 years is not apathy toward unions but the steady increase in the value of their homes and the inflation of their equity-based retirement savings. When equities and property values deflate, there will be significant political pressure on the fed gov't to protect the middle class from foreign competition and to increase spending on entitlements to buffer the impact of rising unemployment rates for this significant constituency. Any effective politicization of interests of those hurt by the inequities of the past 20 years will shove the free-trade pendulum swinging in the other direction. Look for increased popularity of politicos espousing protectionism and entitlements ( e.g., Pat Buchanan ) . If this follows a major stock market correction, expect a deep and lasting depression that makes the 1930's look like a minor recession. Triggers: the Euro, Y2K panics, rapid oil price increases, a large-scale military or terrorist event, or some combination of these. Gold? Look to the lessons of the 1970's.

p.s. If you told anyone in 1970 that in a few years they'd be waiting in line at gas stations to buy gas, they have told you you were nuts. Same with Y2K. The difference is that Y2K is not a price control plot; it's the unintended consequence of a rational decisions made long ago.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:39 - ID#410215)
..... Face Value .....

No gold coin has a face value

Empty numbers stamped in lies

Gold is traded in US Dollars

Everywhere on Earth

This is the standard

If ever you sell your gold

Dollars are what you will recive

You must then convert them into something else

Of your own choosing

Thus, no freedon from the dollar found

When trading gold





(Mon May 04 1998 20:41 - ID#210235)
@US General Accounting Office report
makes it clear that the guvmint doesn't have a handle yet on what needs to be done for Y2K.$defaultview/A3713D4AFCFD801F852565FA0057CCC2

(Mon May 04 1998 20:44 - ID#210235)
More fallout from Euro Summit

Unhappy Europeans see agreement in violation of Maastricht Treaty. Not a good time to get everybody's back up.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:46 - ID#31868)
TYoung - you must have me confused with somebody else. I couldn't tread
water in the same pool with A. Goose and SDR_er. I can barely speak English let alone read German and what they are up to with the minting of coins. Although I do like Spearmint.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 20:54 - ID#384350)
Legal Tender Gold Coins
I believe that the $100 Australian Nugget ( 1 oz. 9999 coin ) is also legal tender in Australia, but for its face value of $100. Since it is worth roughly 5 times that, you wouldn't be tempted to use it in the local grocery store.

The thing about legal tender laws is that people are forced into accepting something of no or little value as something of value.

(Mon May 04 1998 20:56 - ID#317193)
I am often confused! I do not mean to suggest that the Euro coin site reflects any truth. It is, interesting!

Thought I saw you posting on this subject, sorry.


(Mon May 04 1998 21:01 - ID#29048)
Euro coins and bills...newer info

(Mon May 04 1998 21:03 - ID#317193)
I should add that if the Eruo coin site reflects any truth then silver is the key to what truth there be.


(Mon May 04 1998 21:04 - ID#348286)
@Y2K - Finally, Public admission that bonuses will be the Rule for programmers, Yes?
Computer Specialists: Uncle Sam Wants You!

By Mike Causey

Sunday, May 3, 1998; Page B02

Uncle Sam has raised the rewards for computer experts. The latest tool in the battle for the hearts and minds of programmers: bonuses ranging from $13,000 to nearly $20,000 for those ready to sign on with the Internal Revenue Service.

Other U.S. agencies are expected to play catch-up with the IRS for those increasingly valuable computer folk.

This is good news for current and would-be federal computer experts. It could mean a pay and perks war among agencies. And not good news for people in jobs considered less valuable. Those people -- especially in payroll, budget, accounting and personnel -- could find their work farmed out to contractors. Or some of them could be laid off, and those who remain on the job could be forced to take up the slack, so agencies will have more money to lavish on computer people.

Like most big computer users, the government worries about what will happen after the clock strikes midnight on Dec. 31, 1999. Some experts fear that many computers -- which read only the last two digits of a year -- will reset themselves to January 1900. That could wipe out or scramble vital government data -- tax and Social Security records, veterans' benefit entitlements and information vital to national security.

What critics of the IRS would like to do -- wipe out the agency or reduce it to something about the size of the Nixon library staff -- could be done overnight by a batch of confused computer chips.

The efforts of the IRS make possible other government functions -- from building dams and highways to writing the monthly salary checks of members of Congress. Hence, it is one of the chief worriers about the threat that the year 2000 gremlin poses to its ability to keep Uncle Sam rolling in dough.

In mid-April, the government announced that for computer experts, it would waive rules that make it financially unattractive for many federal and military retirees to return to work. That government-wide waiver, announced by the Office of Personnel Management, will let selected computer experts who return to government service collect their full federal salary, plus their civil service annuities or military retirement pay. That is quite an incentive.

OPM also made another money change, saying that selected high-grade computer experts, who are now limited in the amount of overtime and premium pay they can receive, could get full pay while working on approved emergency projects related to the year 2000 situation.

On April 20, the Federal Diary reported that the IRS had decided to exercise rarely used authority. It will pay "retention allowances" of up to 10 percent to get and keep computer programmers and specialists in Grades 5 through 12. That means a permanent pay differential. Salaries for those grades ( including the Washington-Baltimore area pay differential ) now range from $21,421 to $61,190 a year.

The IRS also told job candidates in the GS 334 computer specialist series ( if you don't know what that is, you probably don't qualify ) that they would be eligible for one of the best 401 ( k ) plans in the nation, civil service retirement benefits and -- that holy of holies in today's recruiting world -- free parking at many locations.

Now the IRS is dangling another lure, offering some computer specialists a one-time recruitment bonus of up to 25 percent to help with the year 2000 conversion and the 1999 tax filing season. In most cases, the full 25 percent won't be paid, the IRS says.

The "up to 25 percent" bonus applies only to computer specialists in Grades 13 and 14. In the Washington area, those jobs pay from $55,969 to $72,759, with locality pay included, for GS 13 and from $66,136 to $85,978 for GS 14. The bonus, however, would be computed using base salaries ( without locality pay ) for GS 13 and 14, which range from $52,176 to $80,151 a year.

If you fit the bill, call the IRS at 202-283-7582.

If not, either wish the computer folks well, or eat your heart out!

Fads change, and hot jobs cool off. Remember MBAs? Someday the government may pay bonuses to English majors, students of philosophy or people who like working with people.

Sex Pill

That's a cheap way to get your attention, but if you've read this far, it worked! The question is: Should the federal health plan pay for Viagra? For the views of both men and women, check this space tomorrow.

Sunday, May 3, 1998

 Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company

(Mon May 04 1998 21:05 - ID#255190)
SDRer and the crew @ ShineyEuros
My 2 cents worth on this.

As Silverbaron pointed out, most minting countries have coins in gold if not silver also, which are denominated at a ridiculous discount to the value of the metal in the coin.

Euro 1.00 = US$ 1.10 according to what I've seen.

In the past ( prior to 1970's ) a universal problem has been using a material ( such as gold, silver or even copper ) which was more valuable than the face value of the coin. The problem was one of cost of material and workmanship to produce the coin. If people withdrew them from circulation to melt, then you were SOL. Thus the attempt to control the price of silver in the 1960's, and the subsequent change to nickel-copper clad coinage.

Here's a twist: denominate the coin so low in fiat paper face value that no one would think of using it for face value commerce. Why do that? Attempt to change the psychology of PM buffs? What is gained?

The coin becomes a fragile artwork of numistic value. Rather than a coin for utility.

The face value of the coin in comparison to its
metal value does two things simultaneously; 1 ) elevates the relative 'value' of the fiat denomination and 2 ) debases the relative 'value' of the metal - all by implication. Certainly a 120 Peso gold coin is as confusing as all get out. Like looking at one of those mirrors at the carnival. Why not a 1 yen gold coin?

The US Mint prices its gold and silver eagles at spot plus a very small percentage. On SE's its $1.25 since I talked to the mint rep last Fall. It this case less than 20%. GE's I'm sure are less % mark up.

The Euro 1/2 tr.oz. coins are priced a 'little' higher than this wouldn't you say? This could most plausibly be because these are small edition novety mintages intended for collectors. They may be trying to take advantage of the fact that this new currency will be a historical landmark. One of a kind, low mintage first editions are valuable.

Another remote possibility is that the high price is protection for the mint. Like a big ask/bid spread. They may be anticipating the PM's to rise and do not want to be caught selling these things at some stupid discount. Or of having sold a million of these one month at spot plus 25% to find the spot price just doubled on them.

The observation that the ratio seem to be 8 to 1 Ag to Au is very interesting. Possibly an attempt to catch Islamic interest in these coins ( proper positioning of the product for the widest possible market ( since Islam embraces ove 750 million people ) .

Maybe a combination of these factors. My guess is that this is not a 'tipping of the hand' since treasuries are the tail of these beasts not the heads. Maybe some profit motive and a bit of hedging regarding future price movements as well as some good old fashion market segmenting.

I'm a little suspicious of innuendo. To me the Brussles connection/communication was not very convincing. I tend to think that Europeans tend to be a bit more 'intriguing' than Americans ( literally ) . So tend to keep my distance from those who play the game better than what I can perceive.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 21:06 - ID#384350)
Buffett's Silver Foray
This is my speculation:
In addition to being a genius, Buffett is well connected. I have seen his name listed on a website as a member of the club of 300, whatever that is. The club of 300 seems to be a behind the scenes group of movers and shakers and maybe someone can enlighten us on that.

Buffett has said he uses little debt and that position has in hindsight hurt results at his company, but he is not comfortable in having much debt due to 1929 type market corrections.

His Silver foray may be that he knows that the US Dollar and US financial system pose risks, and that by holding Silver he can maintain operations of his company if the dollar were to collapse. Since Berkshire is principally an insurance company, the ability for it to keep its doors open in a crisis is imperative.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:06 - ID#342315)
Legal Tender gold coins
This, a legal tender gold coin, is a legal oxymoron. The trouble is that a government issuer has the right to make the coin legal tender, but the denomination is in units of account. This sets the face VALUE. You may have some trouble when you want spend a $100 face coin which is one ounce and the price of gold is $300/oz. If the coin plainly states it is one oz and is 999.95 ( London good delivery ) , the taker may not want to give but $100. I'm sure this can be resolved, but the best bet is a bullion coin

(Mon May 04 1998 21:10 - ID#43460)
DJ, thanks for the 'channeling'
I'm happy at this point to be in mid channel. Looking for rising prices I can sell some or falling prices can buy some. :^ )

(Mon May 04 1998 21:15 - ID#255151)

Just checked the Euro coin site. To avoid nickel allergy, many of these coins will have a nickel-free alloy called "Nordic Gold". How sweet of them. Is "Nordic Gold" the same as pyruvite? If I were Swedish, I'd be suing the Hell out of these guys for the insensitive use of the term. This EURO is looking more like farce all the time. ( IMHO, of course )

(Mon May 04 1998 21:16 - ID#288295)

Psychological debasement using ridiculously low face THAT's why gold has been going down !!! ( :^ ) For whoever thought of the idea, I have to tip my cap - you did a nice job.....

(Mon May 04 1998 21:18 - ID#217268)
Gianni Dioro @ 21:00
My bet is Buffet purchased silver because a significant percentage of the Euro coins will contain silver in them. That may, in turn, pressure the US to consider using silver in its coins. There can be no other useage of silver in proportion to the amount Buffet purchased. A long shot is silver to be used in the Ballard Fuel cell.

Group comments ?

(Mon May 04 1998 21:22 - ID#256326)
Some other interesting numbers today the 41.22 low of 1932 in the Dow times 15 squared = 9275.

Also today's high in the Dow was almost exactly 12 times the 1982 low, and today's high in the SPX was almost exactly 12 times the 1980 low.

Parlor games perhaps, but Frost--my favorite Elliottist after Himself--felt they were important, as did W.D.Gann.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 21:24 - ID#384350)
My earlier post should read Committee of 300 instead of club of 300.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:31 - ID#217268)
follow-up to my previous post
Yes, I read the reference page that describes the content of the Euro coins. Nevertheless, silver has an ANTI-BACTERIAL property that may be significant. Silver is used in portable water filters to inhibit the growth of microorganisms within the filter. Cylinder shaped filters of 3 inches in diameter by 8 inches in length can safely filter 13,000 US gallons of water. I own one.

With peoples' general concern regarding transmission of disease, it makes some sense to 'infuse' coin money with silver. This is not to say for certain it will happen nor is it definately the reason for Buffet's purchase of silver and basing it offshore ( Europe !! ) .

Time will tell.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:31 - ID#255190)

It is really confusing to me to look at a coin whose face 'value' is marked as US$50 but whose market price has fluxuated from between US$277 and US$850 in recent memory. I get vertigo. The Mexican coin is even worse a disparity. At one time I thought of buying a few but just could not do it with that face value on there. UGh!

I think you are right about the bright person who figurd this one out. A tremendous reversal of perception from 'money is getting worthless because the metal is increasingly worth more than the face value' to 'a gold coin is only 'worth' US$50 ???'. A beauty of a spin job. Eligant. Subtle. Persuasive. And effective.

Gone to bed. Night all.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:32 - ID#288156)
THIS is what 'started' the whole exercise on Sunday--repost
Date: Sun May 03 1998 12:34
SDRer__A ( The REAL price of GOLD.... ) ID#287277:

Background:The Brussels connection--lengthy discussions about paper
gold market at Comex/LBMA and frustration of being forced to view
through the tyranny-of-the-dollar.

Then--received an email from Brussels connection, with JUST the
Euromint url; no greetings, no text at all--only the URL

Saw immediately that there was one heck of a price differential, but--given prior discussions [prior knowledge], did not want to
program Kitco to see what I saw.

Knowing that there are Kitco folks fluent in the language, I posted
sans text.

Adrian saw, immediately, the price differential that I noticed. That is not to say that either of us has a LOCK on some New Truth.
It does suggest that we would do well to work this issue!
Here is the exchange:

( 1 ) Date: Sun May 03 1998 10:12
SDRer__A ( Harbinger's ??? ) ID#28594:

( 2 ) Date: Sun May 03 1998 10:58
Adrian ( SDRer-A Your 10:12 Euro Coin ) ID#254159:
( GERMANY ) ,Gold coin is 1/2 oz .999 pure. cost=DM$648=US$363.72
or US$727.44/oz. Interesting!!!!

So, at the outset, we were NOT looking at a legal tender coin. We
just thought it amazing that the price of physical gold in Germany
was substantial higher than the PAPER PRICE of gold at Comex!

(Mon May 04 1998 21:34 - ID#410215)
..... The Lowest form of Humor - the Limerick .....

'Round here folks like to scream and holler

That the new "Big Dog" is the Eurodollar

Seems the New World Order

Would be quicker and shorter

If not for the fleas in its collar


(Mon May 04 1998 21:34 - ID#288295)
pyramid @ Buffet silver
Buffet may know something important that the rest of us don't know ( he usually does, yes? ) but the shortfall in the silver supply-demand relationship has been widely known, at least since Blanchard's 'Silver Bonanza' book came on the scene 3 or 4 years ago. Perhaps it is no more complex than this - Buffet sees a situation of inelastic demand meeting an inelastic but smaller supply and stockpiles on the verge of depletion. Unless something comes along and fundamentally changes either the silver supply or demand situations, higher prices are inevitable to clear the market by reducing demand and increasing supply. This is Econ 101 stuff - no rocket science here.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:35 - ID#342315)
Gianni Dioro re your 21:06
You have presented a very important concept, after Buffet. The protection of policy holders in event of a crisis such as we have possible. Some how the Insurance industry will have to come to grips with this or suffer, along with policy holders. They should have a portion ( maybe 10-15% ) of their investments in gold to compensate for the wash out of dollar denominated paper. I have not yet figured out how to sell them on this effectively other than the obvious, but it is pretty late in the game. Maybe some of the crew here can bring up some ideas. Let me know and if no one else wants to I'll talk to them

(Mon May 04 1998 21:38 - ID#43460)
re EJ's comment about recession
Pat Buchanan, eh? I think he might be hard to classify using the popular American Right/Left dichotomy as he's more Libertarian socially. Perhaps in Europe he'd be running in the Christian Democrat coalition. But I do think he'd be more of a tight money man, leading to recessionary trends?
But then wouldn't his protectionism drive up the cost of imports? ( Actually I think there are Dem/Repub coalitions on both sides of the free trade house. I was thinking that probably that's not such a partisan issue any more so much as welfare issues. ) Someone like him would possibly be more sympathetic to mining issues and the POG, though? IMHO

But when I wrote the last post, I was wondering about what would happen if some former Democrat mainstream Republican like Colin Powell, Trent Lott or Richard Shelby took the presidency, and right now that appears the way the party is leaning. Surely they'd open the DOD money spigot again and would probably defend mining rights but what would they do with the domestic entitlements which make up 3/8 of the budget? IMHO

Oh, another thing I'm wondering about. What about the effect of entitlements demanded by illegal immigrants? Whole new ball of wax. IMHO

(Mon May 04 1998 21:38 - ID#43460)
re EJ's comment about recession
Pat Buchanan, eh? I think he might be hard to classify using the popular American Right/Left dichotomy as he's more Libertarian socially. Perhaps in Europe he'd be running in the Christian Democrat coalition. But I do think he'd be more of a tight money man, leading to recessionary trends?
But then wouldn't his protectionism drive up the cost of imports? ( Actually I think there are Dem/Repub coalitions on both sides of the free trade house. I was thinking that probably that's not such a partisan issue any more so much as welfare issues. ) Someone like him would possibly be more sympathetic to mining issues and the POG, though? IMHO

But when I wrote the last post, I was wondering about what would happen if some former Democrat mainstream Republican like Colin Powell, Trent Lott or Richard Shelby took the presidency, and right now that appears the way the party is leaning. Surely they'd open the DOD money spigot again and would probably defend mining rights but what would they do with the domestic entitlements which make up 3/8 of the budget? IMHO

Oh, another thing I'm wondering about. What about the effect of entitlements demanded by illegal immigrants? Whole new ball of wax. IMHO

(Mon May 04 1998 21:42 - ID#288295)

Psychological debasement using ridiculously
low face THAT's why gold has
been going down !!! ( :^ ) For whoever
thought of the idea, I have to tip my cap -
you did a nice job.....

(Mon May 04 1998 21:43 - ID#31868)
Jimmy's brother Warren bought silver for one reason and one
reason only. Supplies are short, the price will skyrocket. He bought because it was dirt cheap and when he sells I will bet silver will be thirty or so dollars or better.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 21:44 - ID#384350)
Pyramid, Silver
I read somewhere last autumn, speculation that an Asian Country ( like Indonesia ) may resort to using Silver coin to restore credibility and normalcy in their currency and economy.

As to Indonesia, have you noticed that the Press blabs all over the place, IMF's $43 Billion bailout when in fact they only throw a tranche of a Billion or so when they are rioting in the streets and the country is on the verge of collapse.

If the money went all at once the IMF would be hurting for hard currency. It is as if the mere announcement of a Huge cash bailout will entice the dippies on its own.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:45 - ID#255151)
European Money

More on the Euro coins-- They list Zinc, Copper, and Nickel. They even have a copper coated steel coin. No mention of Gold or Silver. All base metals. Guess that's why it's called the debasement of currencies, eh!

(Mon May 04 1998 21:47 - ID#288295)

Well said!

(Mon May 04 1998 21:52 - ID#342315)
Silverbaron, SDRer re Mozel
Maybe Mozel can unravel for us the legal implications of LEGAL TENDER. I sure as hell would not let a coin go for face ( legal tender ) unless that was worth more than the metal. However in the snakepit of issuers, there are many considerations, all or most of which may not be appropriate to the holder of the coin. How about this Mozel?

(Mon May 04 1998 21:53 - ID#255190)
One last comment

Bury your gold and silver. See ya in a year.
Forget the daily, weekly or monthly flux. Y2K will
blow this fragile world to little bits. Paper will
be used to light fires with to stay warm. Why?
Because the governments which printed it will be
only a shadow of their former selves. And just
like confederate dollars became so much waste
paper after the war, so all will be this time.
Countries will be forced to rebuild based upon
gold and silver, perhaps even copper or bronze
coinage since paper will be worth nothing. The
transition will not be very pretty to watch.

When governments lose the confidence of people to
maintain control then their currencies become
worthless, unless the currency is gold and/or
silver since it knows no national boundries and
needs no garrantees. Think about that for a
minute, please.

When governments lose control then their money
will become worthless ( all prices of real things
will skyrocket ) . Why? Because people will
recognize that real material things in the hand
today are worth much more than multiplied virtual
things in the bush. And the shift of money chasing
real goods will cause prices to escalate.

A strong
currency with all hands invested in virtual wealth
indicates that the government is in complete
control of the population's confidence. This never
lasts forever. Because of Y2000 by next year at this time we will
be in full reversal of this situation as panic and
chaos grips the hearts of men. "Their hearts will
fail them for fear in seeing the things that are
coming upon the earth."

Nite, nite. IMHO, All disclaimers apply.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 21:55 - ID#384350)
Chas, Buffett
I know Buffett has professed the importance of his company's superior capital strength as a selling point.

In fact, Berkshire Hathaway is making money today from companies who pay for the privilege of someday being able to be the firsts in line to buy reinsurance from Berkshire in the event that a major catastrophe would destroy the industry to the point where insurance would not be offered, except by the few.

An insurance company's ability to pay off claims is paramount.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:55 - ID#286250)
Today taught me something.
I dont have what this takes!
One has an obligation to, in some reasonable way,
substantiate information put forward...

And one has an obligation to not reveal information from
family, friends, associates which they have shared on special
terms....information which is in no way confidential, but...

As Allen has pointed out to me [indirectly, of course],
neither course is acceptable.

I should really like to thank so many of you
who have offered so much.

And I do thank you , and wish you all
Good as Gold times coming!
GoodGoldBye! {:- )

(Mon May 04 1998 21:56 - ID#288369)
@Real Euros...........

(Mon May 04 1998 21:56 - ID#29048)
Auric...Nordic Gold
is made of Copper, Aluminum, Zinc and Tin. Sounds like a recycler's dream come true. The pictures are pretty though.

(Mon May 04 1998 21:58 - ID#31868)
TYoung-just saw the last post, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,
it seems to me that it is impossible for any country to mint a coin with any precious metal at this time with a legal stamping representing a currency value.

As we have seen with the Islamic coins it does have some sense to it as they believe all paper to be bad. In that vein of thought it makes sense as they are going back to an age old standard of weight and content, etc.
For which there are thousands of years of known value, etc. Because this is part of their belief system it crosses over borders.

With the exception of China I see no other country which could mint coins and make it work, possibly India.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:01 - ID#31868)
Legal Tender
Many but not all colonial issues were official legal tender. Legal tender meant the law of the colony required one to accept the notes in payment of a debt. British merchants regularly tried to do away this the legal tender status as they felt colonial customers should pay in silver coin or with drafts backed by British sterling. They did not want to be forced into accepting depressed colonial paper.

Legal tender status was not considered in the legislation for the earliest printed emissions but it appears to have become rather common by the 1720's. The first colonial issue to have legal tender status was the New Jersey emission of July 14, 1711, thereafter most New Jersey issues were legal tender. New York issues from 1709-1723 do not mention legal tender status but it was attached to most issues from 1724-1764. Under the Currency Reform Act of 1751 legal tender status was denied to all New England issues. Massachusetts stopped producing currency at this point but Rhode Island, Connecticut and New Hampshire continued to emit several issues. This law did not apply to currency outside New England. Finally in the Currency Reform Act of 1764 the British government prohibited all colonial currency from being designated as legal tender. Subsequent issues, as the New York issue of 1771, the numerous Pennsylvania issues of 1769-1775 and the three Maryland issues of 1767-1774, and various issues from the other colonies did not have legal tender status. During the Revolution colonial ( or state ) issues once again had legal tender status, but the several local emissions, from cities or individuals lacked legal tender status.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:01 - ID#256326)
GCM8 managed to sidestep the issue that Oleman and I discussed at another site ( where my handle/moniker is Twocents ) and which Sharefin posted here
last night. $301-300 is key, laddies and lassies.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:01 - ID#342315)
SDRer re your last post
Where are you going. Now in the midst of a lot of work whatis up?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:03 - ID#288369)
@SDRer.....what? have nothing to be upset about! Your word is gold....I would prefer your message to the truth...if there is a difference. studio.r

(Mon May 04 1998 22:06 - ID#31868)
I second or third or fourth the motion. What are you talking about?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:07 - ID#255151)

Heh heh. The Euro coins are politically correct, if nothing else. Allergy-free and recyclable. And apparently, guaranteed to be Gold and Silver free.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:08 - ID#335190)
Mozel @ 02:22
Thank you very much for your reply. All that you explained, was clear and detailed, in regards to Corporation's and Property rights. I suggest we are not that far apart in our overview of property rights and corporations. Academia, and were the rubber hits the road ( mechanics ) is likely were we separate our views.

Yes, you have provided a clearer view of this issue, and I appreciate your time, and effort. You are correct, when you put forth the belief that people to not understand law. In addition, you suggest that I miss the significance of Law in History. I do not disregard law when I consult history.

Law, Politics and Religion are woven into a tight mesh, wrapped around the reference to power/control over the people. Law is made by man, and law is redesigned by the people, after a war, or conquest, or riots. Once the people go on the move, law makers and law lackeys, are put in their place, these types cause war and conflict, not the people per se. The people force Religions to change, and Law and Politics. The circle of life, or progress of man.

You asked about Canada  Do Canadian corporations also have federal protection from provincial law? We have Provincial Corporations Act and Federal Corporations Act. I do not know about this question, nor can I answer the question about taxed and governed by statute as if we were corporations and not men and women. I expect we are, and I also expect we have less freedom and access, to the issue of government by the people. ( citizens )

Although, our Canadian constitution, charter of rights and freedoms states in the preamble  Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law.

My reference to We the People is directed to your country, and your constitutions preamble. Such reference is not used in Canada. We use Everyone Every Citizen Any person Citizens

My reference to B*** S*** was in regards to you stating that FDR confiscated Gold, I stated that the Corporations, had bought and paid for the delivery of FDR, and as a result, the Federal Reserve Corporation confiscated the Gold, via FDR. In other words, it was a corporate decision, not an elected representatives decision. Such act was done, to reimburse the corporations for having given/made FDR President in 1933.

......................Canadian Courts:
" Like the United Kingdom, Canada fills judicial vacancies through executive appointment, formally by the representative of the Crown but in practice by the federal minister of justice or provincial attorney general ( with the prime minister or premier having the right to make the most prestigious appointments ) depending on which court the appointment is to be made to. The appointee is selected from the ranks of experienced practising lawyers.

This description of the appointment process, however, is deceptively straightforward. It does accurately differentiate Canadian practices from those of many U.S. state courts, where the judges are elected by the general public for specific terms. In most cases, however, these judicial elections are merely confirmation elections.

When judicial vacancies occur, non-partisan nominating commissions interview candidates and provide a short list to the state governor. The candidate selected by the governor serves a probationary year and then faces the confirmation election.

No other candidates are on the ballot for that particular position, and voters can either confirm or reject the judge. Re-confirmation elections are usually held at intervals of six or twelve years. In the federal courts in the United States, elections do not occur; judges are appointed by the president."

FWIW ....Thanks again.....Take Care

(Mon May 04 1998 22:09 - ID#173274)
@the scene
The only face value I want to see on coins is their weight and fineness. Anybody know of any?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:10 - ID#410215)

Regarding "Psychological debasement"

How many people on earth ever see one of these coins with ridiculously low face value and form an opinion of the worth of the base metal to then disseminate these feelings that gold has little or no worth throughout the known universe?

Some talk earlier of coins in circulation I think it is summed up in:

Gresham's law ( grshemz ) noun

The theory holding that if two kinds of money in circulation have the same denominational value but different intrinsic values, the money with higher intrinsic value will be hoarded and eventually driven out of circulation by the money with lesser intrinsic value.

[After Sir Thomas Gresham.]

The muddled sentence at top is my own

I am ashamed to say

Can't seem to get the hang

Of this whole language thingie

But no time for rewrite I

On to bigger worldly worries

The quote is cut and paste

And a grand one indeedy

I feel smarter having pasted this

If not in having posting this

Uh Huh

(Mon May 04 1998 22:15 - ID#288369)
@SDRer.....Hey! Gold Damnit!
Remember when I leaked out that Ted's wife was ill? And Nick set me straight...cause I deserved it....No one here, absolutely no one has a greater gift to share than you, and please don't take it away. The info you presented to us on the euro coins was conditional...and you let each of us make up his/her could not have been presented to the forum in a more fair and appropriate manner. You're one of the leaders....lead!

(Mon May 04 1998 22:16 - ID#173274)
@the scene
RJ -- So don't put a funny-money 'value' on them to begin with and bypass the whole problem.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:16 - ID#290118)
Coins to Dust
The instrinsic value of gold was best said by Mike Sheller: "The only thing that can be of equal representative value is another physical item, or service that requires the same relative effort to obtain or create. Gold must be obtained by the creative industry, skill, and labor of human beings." Thank you Mike. Your statement has given me many pauses for thought - that gold should naturally be a medium of trade.
Trading with gold as "money" is great for government or large transactions but its inconvenient for everyday use due to its high price At a few thousand$ ( 1998 purchasing power ) it is infeasible to use it thusly. At those levels 99.99 gold grain would be the only convenient way to use it for everyday trade ( the old gold scale method ) .
What is to prevent us from using gold as a defacto standard of trade - irrespective of what governments are up to?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:17 - ID#403277)
When money becomes worthless
Allen ( USA ) Your 21:53 is the latest of a series of posts that have emphasized the panic that may ensue when paper money loses its value.

I believe that the real money is neither paper nor gold, but rather the intrinsic value of things people can barter for food. Instead of panic, we will see resourcefulness and innovation. Each person will contribute to the economy according to his capabilities. Those who are able to supply needed services and materials will amass a new wealth. This new wealth may be represented by precious metals, but, if the "breaking of nations" is sufficiently complete, even these will have little value, because only people who happen to have them will be trading them. The real trade will be in material goods and real services. When people realize that they can't eat gold, their principals will change very quickly.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:18 - ID#255151)

SDRer-- I always read your posts, even on days when I have to just scan most of Kitco. They are clear, educational, and just about always the perfect length. You have educated all of Kitco on the BIS, the EURO, and of course, the SDR. For that, you deserve a hearty thank you. Hoping it will continue.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:20 - ID#43460)
coin pics and insights into coin confiscation
Both these links are from the Smithsonian Institution, so they reflect US federal government ideology on the subject. Plus some pretty pics. IMHO

(Mon May 04 1998 22:20 - ID#341189)
What the heck is going on? I just came on and saw your Goodbye. What does this mean? What have I missed? What do you mean that you don't have what is takes? Please don't stop what you've been doing. Carl

(Mon May 04 1998 22:21 - ID#29048)
Studio.R and real Euros
Qu Bonita! and that reminds me, whatever happened to Long John Silver? He posted here last year. We could use a few more pirates around here for flavor.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 22:21 - ID#384350)
Allen, Silverbaron, Legal Tender
If the value of Silver, Gold, or copper were to increase over the value of the paper kind, it would cripple banks ability to create money out of thin air via the fractional reserve system.

Coin wouldn't necessarily disappear from circulation though there would be hoarding. Paper currency would become worthless, but people would still use and prefer to use coin as a medium of exchange.

It is sad and ridiculous that the copper content of a penny was reduced because the govt had debased the dollar so much that one cent would actually be worth something.

It is more the case that Govts and Banks would no longer be able to inflate and steal, than coin would disappear from circulation.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:22 - ID#410215)
..... Consequence .....

If SDRer goes

It will be one less

To keep me honest


(Mon May 04 1998 22:24 - ID#256326)
Don't get me wrong, I love the beauty of gold and all that BS. I own a lot of it, physical and otherwise, but at day's end it's only worth what the market says.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:25 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Squirrel -- Don't like carrying 10 oz of gold? Like you ever would! But it sure wouldn't be hard to weave or incorporate a fine strand of it into paper that would also incorporate a 'weight' on the front for 'denominational' purposes! One would also still have full use of checking and debit cards.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:29 - ID#288295)
Now, my fine know better than to abandon this ship! You, who dig deeper and work harder to discover truth than most of the rest of us put together! I say Enough! with whatever dismays you about this Euro coin mess. Put the subject to bed and find something else to talk with us about, but do not leave - we could not replace you, and would not like to try.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:30 - ID#290118)
Gold Coins in Weight & Fineness Only
Yes, I agree to that. That way regardless of what the price per ozt floats up or down to the coin never falls out of synch - it never gets melted down because its face value fell below its bullion value.
There are current issue coins with weight and fineness - yes. But they also have some arbitrary face value. Though I must check a few sites to see if any have just weight and fineness.
But even a miniscule 1/10th ozt gold coin would break the cash register if it had ten times the purchasing power it has today.
Silver coins would work better for "small change".
Again guys - I'll accept gold or silver coin for anything in my store.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:30 - ID#173274)
@the scene
SDR -- Whatever are you talking about. Your posts are at LEAST worth their weight in gold, and I do mean 'heavy'!

(Mon May 04 1998 22:34 - ID#341189)
One more word. Don't get discouraged if you think your work isn't headed where you thought it was going. You are asking and wresling with the right questions. If things don't seem to be adding up, it's because the questions are bigger than your anticipated answers. These are basic things you're trying to find out. I have some experience wandering through tough questions for years, working to exaustion, with only the conviction that the questions are important. Your quest is important. Keep at it.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:35 - ID#411331)
@ Charles Keeling: Thank you. If the Belgium CB sold its gold through the BIS for $305, to other
CB's, then it could realy be interpreted as a transfer, rather than an
open market sale. Even the published sale price may be academic. True?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:36 - ID#210235)
@dear SDRer
Please tell me that my read on your post, that you were abandoning the Euro thread ONLY was correct. We are students together!


(Mon May 04 1998 22:36 - ID#342315)
Gianni Dioro
It appears from your 21:55 that Berkshire has a lot of insurance co.'s by the gonies. This is a captured market. Can you tell me more? If you prefer to ermail, mine is thanx, Charlie

(Mon May 04 1998 22:38 - ID#290118)
I understand where you are coming from. Knowing what you know but can not divulge for fear of compromising the sources and tipping off others that you know. Churchill sweated over such decisions - one result was the destruction of Coventry. But Gold isn't on that level of importance - or is it. God help us if it has come to that.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:38 - ID#255151)

The Mountie is an example of such a coin. Re weaving Gold thread into a bill-- Now there's an idea. Would solve the counterfeiting problem, eh!

(Mon May 04 1998 22:38 - ID#342315)
DITTO on Carl

(Mon May 04 1998 22:43 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- I believe the mounty also has a 50 dollar figure on it.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:44 - ID#288369)
@Speed!......Si, muy bonita! reales por todo el mundo....
You know, a thought occured to me the other day, and those real pictures gave me the occasion to recall it....The World Gold Council should fire their management, take their wages and hire artists and designers to create the most beautiful coin designs ever imagined. I just know that designs as beautiful, and perhaps more beautiful, than the St. Gaudens are possible. Look at the homely Krug, for example....ohmy. I know that splendid designs would sell a lot more gold...people would wear them and treasure them...Hell, copy the old Spanish designs....the Mona Lisa.....Pam Anderson.....Hot, Hot, Caliente, baby! Sell your designs to the mints of the world.....World Gold Council.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:48 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- OOPS! 'Mountie'.

Studio R. -- And DON"T put a funny-money 'value' on them! But I agree! Make all kinds of designs! Make 'em purty!

(Mon May 04 1998 22:50 - ID#290118)
Gold IDentification/Assay
While I'm in this form Eldorado posts an idea which negates my idea. I should compose in a word processor more - it cuts & pastes nicely and I can be two places at once. Gold threads in a paper note. But how can we we test the actual gold content without destroying the note. Same test could apply to gold dust, grain, nuggets, etc. We always seem to be catching up to science fiction. Is some technology either here or just around the bend?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:52 - ID#284255)
The twelve wives of gold - the Lawyers are next?
12 Marriages
A lawyer got married to a woman who had previously been married 12 times. On their wedding night, they settled into the bridal suite at their hotel and the bride said to her new groom, "Please, promise to be gentle. I am still a virgin."

This puzzled the groom, since after 12 marriages, he thought that at least one of her husbands would have been able to perform. He asked his new bride to explain the phenomenon. She responded:

"My first husband was a Sales Representative who spent our entire marriage telling me, in grandiose terms, 'It's gonna be great!'

My second husband was from Software Services; he was never quite sure how it was supposed to function, but he said he would send me documentation.

My third husband was from Field Services and constantly said that everything was diagnostically OK, but he just couldn't get the system up.

My fourth husband was from Educational Services, and he simply said, 'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.'

My fifth husband was from the Telemarketing Department and said that he had the orders, but he wasn't quite sure when he was going to be able to deliver.

My sixth husband was an Engineer. He told me that he understood the basic process but needed three years to research, implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.

My seventh husband was from Finance and Administration. His comments were that he knew how, but he just wasn't sure whether or not it was his job.

My eighth husband was from Standards and Regulations and told me that he was up to the standards but that regulations said nothing about how to do it.

My ninth husband was a Marketing Manager. He said, 'I know I have the product. I'm just not sure how to position it.'

My tenth husband was a psychiatrist, and all he ever wanted to do was talk about it.

My eleventh husband was a gynecologist, and all he ever wanted to do was look at it.

My twelfth husband was a stamp collector, and all he ever wanted to do was -- God I miss him!

So now I have married a lawyer---- I know I'm going to get screwed.

(Mon May 04 1998 22:56 - ID#288369) cad!
And what would a musician do with it?

(Mon May 04 1998 22:58 - ID#255151)

Happy to report the Mountie has no denomination. ( Maple Leaf has a 50 Dollar denomination. Presumably, that's Canadian Dollars. )

(Mon May 04 1998 22:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Sharefin -- That's hilarious!

(Mon May 04 1998 23:02 - ID#342315)
Silverbaron re WGC
Have you got the URL for World Gold Council? I lost mine on the change. Several other things, but I'll catch you tomorrow. Thanx Charlie

(Mon May 04 1998 23:04 - ID#335190)
Year2000 @ 14:39
Drywallers union and "inflationary" and "bad for the economy" This is the uniqueness of the free enterprise system eh!. Hell, as Mozel stated, workers have "property rights", their labour.

The news media, has a fear, of these labour property rights advocates. Obviously, a liberal/commie plot. If these 14 cent a sq. ft workers, were to lower their price, they would get more work, and help sell more homes, right?

Take Care

(Mon May 04 1998 23:06 - ID#173274)
@ the scene
Auric -- You made me go look again. Thought I was going nuts. Here is the description of it from the mint:
The new coin is ten sided and sports a uniquely Canadian design that
investors will find attractive. The reverse depicts the profile of a
Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer mounted on a horse and carrying a
flag, with the inscriptions ".9999" and "FINE GOLD 1 OZ OR PUR" below
the horse, surrounded by a circular line. The word CANADA and twelve
maple leaves appear around the circumference of the coin. The obverse
depicts Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II surrounded by the inscription
"ELIZABETH II year of issue D.G. REGINA 50 DOLLARS". The lettering
MRC JUSQU'AU 1ER JANV. 2000" appears around the circumference.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:07 - ID#255151)

Just got out a Mountie and looked it over in good light. Looks like there IS a 50 Dollar denomination on the Mountie. Hmm, I missed that.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:10 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- Don't you just hate that. I REALLY fail to understand WHY some stupid denomination has to be put on an otherwise marvelous coin!!!

(Mon May 04 1998 23:15 - ID#288369)
@Eldo....when I'm not dreaming of Jeannie with the light brown hair, I dream of........

(Mon May 04 1998 23:18 - ID#255151)

Yeah, it's almost as if they do that just to remind you that this is a Government-approved coin. A bit presumptuous of them to think that such approval is needed for an ounce of ORO PUR

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 23:20 - ID#384350)
Chas, Insurance
For the most part, Insurance is a commodity-type industry with relatively little barriers to entry or exit.

We have recently had Fat Years, with High returns on investments ( stocks & bonds ) and no Huge Catastrophes like the Big One in San Francisco.

Competition in these Fat Years tends to intensify and to make insurance less profitable and/or more vulnerable. A major catastrophe coupled with a sharp decline in stocks and bonds would ruin many Insurance companies.

I wouldn't say that Berkshire has companies by the "Gonies", just that these companies are forward thinking.

They aren't a whole lot different from us goldbugs having gold or silver coins, ready to tap into them in case of emergency.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:21 - ID#288369)
@SDRer....please allow me to present this notion to you......
Your absence will waste my mind....and that's a terrible thing to do.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:22 - ID#255267)
@Rangy fan club
Thanks to JD's tracking and Vronsky's swift posting we now know Rangy's NAV is about $2.10 at current POG.

The big Q is has anyone figured out the NAV's @ POG of 320, 330, 340 & 350. This info might help those looking to join the club at it's new membership fee of $1.38 a share. However, this is a special club and membership fees are subject to change!

I tried sending you that Email but it wouldnt go through. The message came back to me after three days. On a related note I tried to buy
Financial Astrology. The book is out of print. Not even the Federation had it for sale. I'll keep looking in used book stores.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:24 - ID#377211)
US Market down tomorrow... IMHO
Today's market activity gaves us reversal type of japanese candles on the DOW, RUSSELL2000 and many other indexes... The market is exausted... It won't take much to make it go South... probably just the absence of many buyers at this level... Time to short DIA ( AMEX ) ? Probably, IMHO.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:25 - ID#344308)

world gold council..

the grain train is now a golden
crested silver tasmanian devil for a driver..ALLABOARD...

what has happened to crude? who said it was going below
$10/bbl? are calls prudent? would a concerted gold/oil options
plan pay off? call options on both, as both have bottomed...immb.

ted...let me know when you see the silver spirit again...he is
headed your way..some ss inbound for the wife.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:25 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Studio R -- Some of those are right nice! There should be NO reason that any coin put into existence can't have some fine and good looks stamped into them now. Does it cost more? I don't THINK so! I will say that the Mountie and the Mapleleafs ain't too shabby though.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:29 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Cherokee -- Yupper!

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 23:31 - ID#384350)
Re: my 23:20, Insurance analogy
It would be like us paying a few dollars to the local grocer, for the privilege to be guaranteed to buy food in the future in case of an Indonesian type crisis.

I suppose holding gold or silver coins is like this kind of insurance. The grocer would likely rather sell to us over someone hawking legal tender.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:33 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
No CB wants to emphasize gold. E-money is what they want. Have you checked out Mobil's new e-money? It is a chip that can be used as a credit card and goes on your key ring or mounted on your car. It's catching on huge. Already nearly 2 mil. users in 6 months. One chip does all....who needs gold?

We are obviously right into a state of currency uncertainty in Europe and the whole process of the EU is highly charged and political. In these circumstances I think it highly unlikely that we will see the so called mobilisation of CB gold reserves - stability will have to be the order of the day, and therefore the scary scenario of 'Oldman' - gold @$250 is just not on. IMO of course as always. Well, in spite of that, the initial reaction of European Markets is positive:

Japan has apparantly decided to devalue yen and in USA we have equity inflation.
It's getting interesting. The powder keg is in the hold. What sets it off???

To what extent would a collapse in the Dow - or long bear market - reduce wealth and therefore purchasing power, and bring on a recession? It didn't happen in 1987 - people spoke of the difference between 'Wall Street and Main Street' but this has been a very long run, and there must be numerous collateral loans out there, and simply the general feeling of financial well being based on inflated portfolio values. People will quickly pull in their horns when the market ( really ) tanks.

Anyone care to speculate on a gold spike due to currency exchange rates?
Gold holdings shadow EU politics ( Business Report, Jhb. )
The new European Central Bank ( ECB ) , formed this weekend to manage the introduction of the euro-currency, was expected to announce how much gold it would hold in its reserves next month after its first board meeting, said analysts yesterday.

Gold Bugs.
I find gold bugs to be at once, the most optimistic and the most naive people on earth. Why don't you folks just give it up and come down from the hills to join the real world.
The euro has been introduced and the end of the world did not come and gold is not going to $400 an ounce let alone $800. The Asian crisis barely registered a ripple on the economic richter scale and gold has continued to slide and will continue its downward trajectory until it reaches a price commensurate with its industrial value.
Now before you go and shoot someone for expressing such blasphemy, you should look at the recent past and see if gold has done or acted in the manner that it was supposed to in relation to events unfolding in the world. It's obvious that whatever correlation might have existed between world events and economic developments in the past no longer holds in todays world.
Remember, there are many fine investments in the world if equities are not your taste, but surely gold is not now, nor will it be anytime soon, one of them.
Good luck.
A view from the other side ( London Times ) :
Anatole Kaletsky says the boom in America is not just a bubble
As good as Wall Street ever gets
Viewed from an angst-ridden, jobless, squabbling Europe, the news from America seems too good to be true. Full employment, no inflation, a balanced budget, unchallenged global dominance in business, culture and defence, a President enjoying near-record popular confidence - such Utopian conditions might have been believable in the innocent 1950s, but things just can't be as good as this, not in this day and age.
And then there is that crazy stock market. Wall Street has more than doubled in three years; indeed, the Dow Jones reached a record high in early trading only yesterday. People are getting rich simply by sitting back and watching the ticker. Families are paying for their children's education by cashing in a hundred Microsoft shares they bought them at birth. Of course, share prices in Europe have risen almost as strongly, but most Europeans don't own any shares. That, surely, is America's Achilles' heel. The bubble will soon burst, leaving America in ruins - or so many Europeans believe.
Such cynicism seems plausible enough from across the Atlantic. But returning to America after a longish absence, as I did last week, I found the flawless statistics and euphoric financial markets easier to understand. America has changed beyond recognition in the past five years. The country seems to have become more efficient and yet more relaxed. Civil servants and even immigration officers seem more civil. Even taxidrivers have changed. In New York I could not find a single taxi driver to complain about the state of the economy or maintain that the country was going to hell.
These are, of course, just casual impressions. But the contrast between today's relaxed, efficient America and the tense, unstable country of the early 1990s may reflect deeper undercurrents. Three forces - technological creativity, social fluidity and expansionary economic policy - seem to reinforce one another to put Americans firmly in command.
The ubiquity of computer technology and communications, combined with the availability of venture capital and the willingness to take risks, have stimulated all kinds of new services, ways of working and forms of business organisation and employment creation that are hardly yet apparent in Europe. Experts have talked for years about the "second industrial revolution", but the predicted benefits have not appeared. The first effects of new technology were often to reduce productivity, as workers wasted their time on computer games or lost themselves on the Internet. New technology also undermined customer services. Banks blamed their failures on computer errors; telephone calls were trapped in voicemail services which Americans have dubbed "voice-jails". The statistical evidence on new technology was negative - the huge investment in computers, especially in service industries, was failing to deliver. Today, however, it seems that America may finally have entered the second, more benign, phase of the industrial revolution. New technology is raising productivity, and creating new products, services and approaches to business.
Computers, e-mail and the Internet have created the "home office", which has been as important as venture capital industry in fuelling America's explosion of individual enterprise. The proliferation of new cable channels, and, more recently, of Internet sites, may also be placing a higher value on knowledge and intelligence. I was astonished last week to find a leading commercial cable channel running an hour-long debate about the interactions of the media, government regulation and American culture. This could have graced any highbrow public television station in Britain, France or Germany, apart from the fact that it was financed by ads for preparations against haemorrhoids.
Technology has not been the only force powering America's economic boom. Changes in social conditions and macroeconomic policy have played an equally vital part.
Scarcely observed in Europe, but much discussed in America, the economic expansion has led to a major improvement in income distribution and social conditions. Poor, unskilled and previously marginalised Americans have been sucked into the labour market by an insatiable demand for workers. Wages have started to rise rapidly at the bottom end of the scale. This has contributed to declining crime rates and a palpably reduced fear of crime. The improvement in social conditions may even be behind the dramatic fall in teenage pregnancies in the past few years.
Secondly, the long period of full employment has made Americans far more willing to embrace economic change. Workers can contemplate leaving low-paid jobs to acquire new skills or start their own businesses. Employers face little criticism if controlling costs and increasing productivity means cutting employment. There is no embarrassment in closing a failing factory, since for every business that closes another one seems to start up. As Newt Gingrich, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, noted when I saw him last Wednesday, the American economy created more new jobs ( and also lost more old ones ) in the past three months than the European Union did in the past decade. Until Europe shifts to a policy of permanent full employment its chances of emulating America's entrepreneurial revolution seem remote.
Sooner or later the Americans may become overconfident and decide again that the world owes them a living, as they did in the late 1960s. The seeds for the next great inflation, economic crisis and financial collapse will then have been sown. But that is unlikely to happen for many years. Until then, Europe would do better to imitate America's so-called bubble than hope for it to burst.
You going to put it to music? ( :- ) )

(Mon May 04 1998 23:34 - ID#287193)
SDRer and friends

It is hard to know what happened to you....but if this should be of any help-----

The site with the Euromint "FIRST EDITION EURO" in question is a dealers site, offering items for 'COLLECTORS'. The price they quote is the real price for a private issue minting. I can see the value it will have in years to come, in a country with so many people.

For a limited issue to recover the cost, the price quoted seems fair to me.

You have to understand that they are not in the gold business.

They are catering to rich collectors.

disclaimer: I do not know Euromint. I am not a collector. I am not in the gold business. BUT...

I do appreciate this site and I have purchased 'Mounties from Bart.'

So, 'Dear SDRer', ( I happen to know a little German and ) I see no wrong but the wrong in you leaving.!

If there is any way I could be of any help in translating part or all of what lead to the misunderstanding- feel free to come back and ask at least a question!


(Mon May 04 1998 23:34 - ID#288369)
@nytol (copyright teddO)
I'm goin' to Kansas City...Kansas City here I come....tomorrow...see ya' when we're richer.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:34 - ID#335190)
SDRer @ Good-Bye ?????
SDRer, surely this is a reference to anything other then, a finish here at Kitco. I sure appreciate the outstanding contributions you have made.
I expect that you will continue to help understand the issue of gold.

Together, digging for the golden nuggets of truth, EH!
Take Care.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:48 - ID#288369)
@sharefin.......Like my ol' Epiphone Emperor......
I shall pluck it.......... ;^ ) ~

(Mon May 04 1998 23:49 - ID#153102)
@Legal Tender
One more time, the three purposes of money in their order of priority:
Unit of Account
Medium of Exchange
Store of Value.

The unit of account in the United States Government and in its laws is the dollar.

The purpose of minting a value on a coin was to show what proportion of a government's unit of account was occupied by the coin. $50 does not mean fifty dollars legally; it means $50.

The US guy who first denominated paper with the same unit of account language as gold coin was FDR. He started the modern USG war on gold with that psywar tactic.

Somebody posted gold's worth is what it is worth in the market: question is what market ? When government is dishonest, where do people go ? To the black market, which is misnomered by government because the black market is really the honest market.

Tolerant1 posted about colonial legal tender. In the Constitution these colonial Bills of Credit were prohibited to be emitted by the States. Now we have federal Bills of Credit emitted by Congress. The same as the Congress issued under the Articles of Confederation as Continentals. 'Twas never supposed to be possible under this Constitution.

RJ says gold is always converted to US$. Really. In China, too ?

Fiat paper currency has only been used in two civilizations: The West and China. The Chinese have been there, done that. Americans have forgotten what happened when bills of credit were emitted by the colonies. But the French have not forgotten the assignat; the Germans have not forgotten the reichmark predecessor of the rentenmark; and the Chinese have fogotten least of all.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:52 - ID#284255)
"The G.O.P. Plots to Hang the 2000 Problem on Al"
I think I now know what will finally cement Y2K on front pages...
In the May 11 issue of Time Magazine, page 16, there's a story entitled . Here's an excerpt:
If the Millennium Bug sparks a recession, as various economists predict, Republicans aim to remind voters that the high-tech Veep who popularized the term "information superhighway" will have had eight years in which to tackle the problem. "The year 2000 problem and the Year 2000 campaign are going to be the same thing," says Jim Lucier of Americans for Tax Reform, a group that has close ties to the G.O.P. The Republican National Committee appears to be intrigued at the prospect. Ed Yourdan, an expert on the Millennium Bug, has been invited to speak at a strategy-planning session.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 04 1998 23:52 - ID#384350)
Translation to Stephane's Gold Commentary

Wave C or Wave III, that's the question

Bearish scenario: Gold is merely playing out a bullish correction in a market still pronouncedly bearish. The correctio is thus playing out an ABC. We are currently in Wave C, which has a minimum target of $315-317 and a maximum target of $330. Then Catastrophe strikes, the gold market heads back to this years lows. this scenario will be validated if the weekly moving average breaks to the downside, presently below $298-300.

Bullish Scenario: Gold is beginning a solid upmove of 5 waves. We are currently in wave III ( see chart ) which should be the most powerful, and should enable us to break through the bearish trendline at $330. This wave up should peak between $340-360. This scenario will be validated if the price moves over the $330 level.

This was my translation of Stephane's commentary. So direct your comments to him.

(Mon May 04 1998 23:59 - ID#335190)
Recession @ Hong Kong
May 4, 1998

Hong Kong whispers "recession" as growth slows

HONG KONG, May 5 ( Reuters ) - Hong Kong's economy, famed for almost magical wealth creation, is in danger of slipping into recession this year as Asia's financial crisis bites, analysts say.

There are two culprits. One is the Hong Kong dollar peg to the U.S. currency. The other is a wide open external economy that exposes this rocky island outcrop to each ill financial wind blowing across the South China Sea.