Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:00 - ID#222235)
Kitco Bar & Grill on ICQ
Have you checked out the chat capability of ICQ?
Sam is open at 11998901 right now. Just polishing the beer glasses and wondering where in the heck are the thirsty folks this evening.

Will be there for the next half hour or so. Promey

(Tue May 05 1998 00:00 - ID#285121)
Aztec__A / Rangy
When spot gold was $3.49 Rangy was 8 1/8. This was in the first quarter of last year. My rangy cost $1.25, can I join anyway ?

(Tue May 05 1998 00:04 - ID#393224)
You CAN'T leave Kitco, mate. This would lower the Kitco S/I ( Serious/Idiot ) Poster Ratio below it's 200 day moving average. I find your posts of immense value. Besides, someone like ( mois ) might then have to bow out to rebalance the ratio!! Have a break and then come back with your powerful and insightful research. Cheers, N.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:04 - ID#342315)
Gianni Dioro re Ins
I may have overdone it a little -"by the gonies", but your 23:31 has the core idea. If we do have a collapse of dollar denominated paper ( currency and investments ) , the values held to back policies would be "wiped out". To insure against this, a portion of investments about 10-15% in gold ( and silver ) would appreciate enough to maintain value for redemptions. So, if you can give me more definition in favor or against this concept, I would appreciate it. If these other co.s preferring to reinsure with Berkshire are aware that a problem is possible, where would they be if Berkshire does not have the value to do the job? If this doesn/t make sense, let me know. Many thanx for your pertinent grab of this situation. Charlie

(Tue May 05 1998 00:06 - ID#335190)
May 4, 1998
FOCUS-Departing Fed governor sees slowing economy

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Federal Reserve Governor Susan Phillips, who Monday announced plans to resign from the central bank, predicted a slowing in the buoyant U.S. economy and hailed the low inflation rate.

"I'm in the camp that thinks we are going to get a slowdown but it would be a slowdown to a more sustainable level," she said.

Many economists have been expecting Asia's economic crisis to restrain the U.S. economy, but Phillips played down those effects and pointed to domestic factors instead.

She said that consumers, who have racked up heavy debt loads during the seven-year economic expansion, would probably "take a breather" after a recent spending spree.

Phillips also noted that businesses have amassed large stocks of inventories lately, meaning they can raise output at a more leisurely pace in coming months.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:06 - ID#341312)
Allen, Ryter, Studio R.
Allen, I think a whole lot of people are going to come to exactly that conclusion regarding fiat currencies in the next year. Y2K might be the biggest event in our lifetimes. I'm far from certain the impact will be catastrophic but if enough people start asking the question "What is a dollar, exactly?" as opposed to what it can buy the global financial infrastructure will simply unravel. Ryter's post that only real goods and services would have value and precious metals won't would require that Y2K is so severe that basic survival is all that counts. In this case, however, physical force and not barter would rule. It wouldn't be lawful or ethical or right but it would happen. Perhaps some isolated communities would barter among themselves but they would be the exception. As long as the utilities and railroads continue to function it won't be anywhere near that bad. If they go down for any extended period of time, though, we will entire a new dark ( literally ) age. I won't be prepared for anything that bad for the simple reason I can't emotionally come to grips with that much less rationally assess the probability of it occuring. I'm thinking along the lines of temporary utility disruptions and a severe global recession. Governments don't collapse or declare martial law except briefly in a few major cities, but they are reduced considerably in scope. Public confidence in corporations and government is greatly reduced and the history books vilify the '90's as a period of greed, shortsightedness, and corruption. The Titanic destroyed the Victorian's faith in technology and Y2K just might do the same to our generation.
Studio R.- THREE oh nine? I think you meant 409! As in '64 Chevy Impala SS. As in "My 4-speed, dual quad, posi-traction 409" ;- )

(Tue May 05 1998 00:14 - ID#335190)
Madness @ Pope's Place
May 4, 1998

'Moment of madness' leads to death of papal guards' commander

VATICAN CITY ( AP )  A member of the Pope's elite Swiss Guard apparently shot and killed his new commander and the official's wife Monday night and then turned the gun on himself, the Vatican said.

The killing was the first within the walls of Vatican City in 150 years.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:19 - ID#255267)
In @ $1.25 would make you a Gold Member. Between $1-$1.25 is a Platinum member and below $1.00 a charter member.

I don't think we'll see much over $3.5 for Rangy as it's life expectantcy is quite shorter after Pebbles sentenced it to death. JD was right a month ago when he advised an out around $3.5. This is more or less a straight play now. The price is tied directly to the profitablity of Rangy's mines which are tied to POG.

I think the fun part of this whole situation is guessing what's going to happen in the end. Stock, cash, grass, kick in the a__, who knows what Pebbles is going to do! I'm not in for much so I intend to see it out unless new info advises to otherwise.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:34 - ID#153102)
"Law, Politics and Religion are woven into a tight mesh, wrapped around
the reference to power/control over the people. Law is made by man, and
law is redesigned by the people, after a war, or conquest, or riots.
Once the people go on the move, law makers and law lackeys, are put in
their place, these types cause war and conflict, not the people per se.
The people force Religions to change, and Law and Politics. The circle
of life, or progress of man."

This is really enlightening. Thank you so much. ( FWIW, you have not understood a word I have written on this forum. )

"My reference to We the People is directed to your country, and your
constitutions preamble. Such reference is not used in Canada. We use
Everyone Every Citizen Any person Citizens"

Well, thank you again. When we want your advice on how to run our country, we know where to find you. Don't call us; we'll call you.

(Tue May 05 1998 00:37 - ID#372276)
Legal Tender




 5103. Legal tender

United States coins and currency ( including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks ) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or

silver coins are not legal tender for debts.






 5112. Denominations, specifications, and design of coins:

. . . ( e ) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary shall mint and issue, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, coins which -

( 1 ) are 40.6 millimeters in diameter and weigh 31.103 grams;

( 2 ) contain .999 fine silver;

( 3 ) have a design -

( A ) symbolic of Liberty on the obverse side; and

( B ) of an eagle on the reverse side;

( 4 ) have inscriptions of the year of minting or issuance, and the words "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "United States of America", "1 Oz. Fine Silver", "E Pluribus Unum", and "One Dollar"; and

( 5 ) have reeded edges.

( f ) Silver Coins. -

( 1 ) Sale price. - The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under subsection ( e ) to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins ( including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses ) .

( 2 ) Bulk sales. - The Secretary shall make bulk sales of the coins minted under subsection ( e ) at a reasonable discount.

( 3 ) Numismatic items. - For purposes of section 5132 ( a ) ( 1 ) of this title, all coins minted under subsection ( e ) shall be considered to be numismatic items.

( g ) For purposes of section 5132 ( a ) ( 1 ) of this title, all coins minted under subsection ( e ) of this

section shall be considered to be numismatic items.

( h ) The coins issued under this title shall be legal tender as provided in section 5103 of this title.

( i ) ( 1 ) Notwithstanding section 5111 ( a ) ( 1 ) of this title, the Secretary shall mint and issue the gold coins described in paragraphs ( 7 ) , ( 8 ) , ( 9 ) , and ( 10 ) of subsection ( a ) of this section, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, and such gold coins shall -

( A ) have a design determined by the Secretary, except that the fifty dollar gold coin shall have -

( i ) on the obverse side, a design symbolic of Liberty; and

( ii ) on the reverse side, a design representing a family of eagles, with the male carrying an olive branch and flying above a nest containing a female eagle and hatchlings;

( B ) have inscriptions of the denomination, the weight of the fine gold content, the year of minting or issuance, and the words "Liberty", "In God We Trust", "United States of America", and "E Pluribus Unum"; and

( C ) have reeded edges.

( 2 ) ( A ) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under this subsection to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins ( including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses ) .

( B ) The Secretary shall make bulk sales of the coins minted under this subsection at a reasonable discount.

( 3 ) For purposes of section 5132 [see below] ( a ) ( 1 ) of this title, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.

( 4 ) ( A ) Notwithstanding any other provision of law and subject to subparagraph ( B ) , the Secretary of the Treasury may change the diameter, weight, or design of any coin minted under this subsection or the fineness of the gold in the alloy of any such coin if the Secretary determines that the specific diameter, weight, design, or fineness of gold which differs from that otherwise required by law is appropriate for such coin.

( B ) The Secretary may not mint any coin with respect to which a determination has been made by the Secretary under subparagraph ( A ) before the end of the 30-day period beginning on the date a notice of such determination is published in the Federal Register....




 5132. Administrative....

( 2 ) ( B ) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, for purposes of this

paragraph -

( i ) the coins described in paragraphs ( 1 ) through ( 4 ) of section 5112 ( a ) shall be made of an alloy of 90 percent silver and 10 percent copper; and

( ii ) all coins minted under this paragraph shall have a mint mark indicating the place of manufacture. ( C ) All coins minted under this paragraph shall be considered to be -

( i ) numismatic items for purposes of paragraph ( 1 ) and section 5111 ( a ) ( 3 ) ; and

( ii ) legal tender, as provided in section 5103.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 00:37 - ID#384350)
Chas, Insurance
You and I see that Berkshire may possibly be holding the Silver position as a hedge against Currency collapse. Most people don't.

Most insurance companies that are taking out these special rights policies are doing so in case of a rash of mega natural disasters, I believe.

Also, Berkshire owns roughly 10% of Coca-Cola and Gillette. These companies would likely go on if the dollar collapsed, but dealing in another form of currency, provided they can survive debt levels, which might not be too hard for them to pay off if in fact the dollar does collapse.

To require insurance companies ( you might as well add banks while you're at it ) to hold 10-15% of reserves in gold in case of currency collapse, would be a slap in the face of the integrity of our dear government. We wouldn't want to be unpatriotic, would we?

(Tue May 05 1998 00:38 - ID#254110)
just lurking
Its been nice but I've got to go, Art Bell will be on soon! Nite all!

(Tue May 05 1998 00:42 - ID#410215)
..... $$$$$ .....

Mozel -

No matter where on this blue orb you trade gold

It is done in US Dollars

As is the case with oil

This mine currency

Over these commodities reign

I did not decide this so

But that it is so


Indeedy so

(Tue May 05 1998 00:48 - ID#342315)
Mozel, Cherokee And Tamerlane
Thanx for answers tonite. I'm wearing down- be back tomorrow, Charlie

(Tue May 05 1998 00:53 - ID#20135)
Date: Sun May 03 1998 21:26
chas ( SDRer, Goose, Donald, JTF, Alberich et al ) ID#342315:

The main item I see in the creation of the Euro is Europoe's dread of the Usdollar. The rest of the world can no longer contend with the reckless action of the USG in its management of the world's reserve currency.

This action is major. Backing the Euro with Usdollars does nothing to remove the yoke that the USG has placed around the necks of the world's governments. I believe that the Euro will be moved toward hard currency status by other governments that have been burnt and burnt badly by the Usdollar. I find comfort in the fact that the French don't trust the Germans that don't trust .

The lack of trust will help evolve the hard currency status. I tend to favor SDRer's view that China, Japan. Islam, Russia will be the fly in the world fiat currency ointment.


(Tue May 05 1998 00:57 - ID#255267)
@Dioro & Chas
I too agree that Buffet might be hedging against financial uncertainty. However, so many good theories surround his silver purchase that I'm starting to think it might have been a function of all of them.
1. Supply and demand
2. As a power source
3. Stability insuarance for B. Hathaway
4. The undefined intangible!
Any way you look at it his actions seem to have been wise. Do you know what his cost average was for the total purchase?

(Tue May 05 1998 01:00 - ID#410215)
..... Aztec .....

WB bought his silver

For all the right reasons

And he will hold it

For the same

(Tue May 05 1998 01:03 - ID#255151)

Hmm, that puts the Vatican on the spot. If they are hush-hush about this, then the conspiracy theories will fluorish. Isn't Malachi Martin going to be a guest on the radio some place? He can always be counted on to stir things up.

(Tue May 05 1998 01:04 - ID#255267)

(Tue May 05 1998 01:05 - ID#252127)
Frank Veneroso talking up silver

See end portion of his most recent conference call at Canarc site.
I still think that anyone buying the Korean gold turn-in is screwing the dog.

(Tue May 05 1998 01:13 - ID#224149)
Fo what it's worth --Goodnight all
Two retired commodities traders are at the track. One turns to the other and asks how hes doing playing his lucky number, five.
Great. Last night I had a dream. In it I saw five houses each with five windows under a blue sky with five clouds in it. This morning I woke up at five oclock, had five sips of coffee, and got here to the track in five minutes. I put five hundred dollars on horse number five in race number five!
How much did you win?
Nothing. He came in fifth.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 01:13 - ID#384350)
Aztec, Buffett & Silver
I think Buffett paid around $4.50 to $6 though I'm not certain. He was pretty much buying from Aug to Dec of 97.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 01:15 - ID#384350)
Aztec Silver
Actually that $6 was probably too high.

(Tue May 05 1998 01:16 - ID#153102)
@American Legal Tender
Today if you pay 8.00 Federal Reserve notes for one silver dollar - that would be about right, and some discount for quantity. This amount then represents the "buying site rate" pursuant to 31 USC 5112 ( e ) ( f ) ( g ) ( h ) and the Uniform Commercial Code at Article 3-107. You will find "tender" under the UCC at 3-604. If you want to PAY for something, you must do it with REAL money at the "buying site rate" of exchange on the day of tender.

(Tue May 05 1998 01:19 - ID#20135)
FWN: 140136 GMT

COMEX Estimated Volumes for Today


Gold 15,000
Silver 9,000
H.G. Copper 4,200

-- ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Net. Adjust- Total
Chg. ment Today

0 576,064 37,685,930
442,282 -576,064 52,471,724
442,282 0 90,157,654

warehouse stocks:
-- GOLD ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Prev. Received Net. Adjust- Total
Total Withdrawn Chg. ment Today

496,181 0 0 0 0 496,181
162,312 0 0 0 0 162,312
658,493 0 0 0 0 658,493

(Tue May 05 1998 01:21 - ID#410215)
..... poorboys .....

You know I plan to steal that joke

And claim it as my own

I like it


(Tue May 05 1998 01:22 - ID#153102)
Indeedy, tell it to the Chinese Premier next time he calls to be lectured by RJ on money. 167 Tons. Got that much Mr. Monex ?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 01:22 - ID#384350)
BRK website says Silver bought between July 25, 1997 and Jan 12, 1998.

(Tue May 05 1998 01:25 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....

Even though I needle

Your message is important

And should be heard

To make ourselves wiser

I admire your persistence

Keep it up

(Tue May 05 1998 01:33 - ID#153102)
It is a mystery to me how a person who prides and styles himself as "realistic" cannot come to grips mentally with the fact $US obligations paying interest were exchanged for 167 Tons of what you persist in thinking is a commodity like rhodium. Just exactly what industrial use do you think that 167 Tons will be consumed in ? Or, do you think there is a great big market for Gold Jewelry from Beijing, maybe ?

(Tue May 05 1998 01:38 - ID#20135)
Could it be because massive amounts of usdollars are starting to come home???
Monday May 4, 7:30 pm Eastern Time

U.S. Treasury, awash in cash, to pay down debt

( Recasts lead, combines takes, adds details )
They seem to make up stories to cover the true situation.

WASHINGTON, May 4 ( Reuters ) - Citing swelling tax receipts, the Treasury Department announced on Monday that it will pay down U.S. government debt by a record $110 billion in the April-to-June second quarter.

Treasury's coffers have been fattened by taxes on incomes and profits generated by a booming economy now in its eighth year of unbroken expansion and by a soaring stock market.

Tuesday May 5, 12:36 am Eastern Time

Euro launch to boost China-EU trade

BEIJING, May 5 ( Reuters ) - China expects the launch of the European single currency to facilitate trade with the European Union and plans to increase cautiously its euro debt and foreign reserve holdings, the official Economic Daily said on Tuesday.

all these actions will remove usdollars from useage... then they go home to the U.S.A.

South Korea Seoul Composite ^KS11 2:42AM 391.80 -14.73 -3.62%

IMF's good boy seems sickly.

Goodnight all

(Tue May 05 1998 01:54 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....

This has been my battle cry from day one

There is just too much gold in the world

What other use indeed?

None but to lie there

In a blanket of dust

I guess I am missing your point

Gold is traded internationally in US Dollars

If they are so entirely worthless

They sure buy lots-o-gold

Don't they?


(Tue May 05 1998 01:57 - ID#153102)
I think your battle cry translated is "Point me toward the windmill, Sancho."

(Tue May 05 1998 01:58 - ID#257148)
HELP-- MayDay----M'AIDEZ
Anyone got ICQ chat working on a 68K MAc?

I am losing what is left of my mind.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:03 - ID#290118)
Kitco bar & grill is getting some of your stuff. Are you sending witht message button or the chat button. The latter is what works.
Please respond here. - I've got both windows running.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:08 - ID#290118)
Chat buttons are under or in the drop down menu to right of user's name.
Pick Kitco Bar - pull down menu - choose chat - not receive.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:09 - ID#22584)
Markets calm as scorn heaped on Euro deal

registration required

FRANCE, Germany and Britain faced a torrent of scorn
from across Europe yesterday over the unsavoury summit
compromise that launched the euro, but the financial
markets shrugged off the deal, leaving the currencies
destined for monetary union virtually unscathed.

And although politicians and commentators denounced the
EU's big three for their artifice in curtailing the presidency
of the European Central Bank, Jos-Mara Gil-Robles,
the European Parliament President, predicted that the
assembly would next week endorse the board members
nominated by the summit.

He said that delay would threaten the prestige of the bank,
adding: "An opportunity to have a board of this quality
should not be thrown out of the window."

MEPs were nevertheless angered by the way that the
summit had tied up the bank presidency for the next 12
years. Wim Duisenberg of The Netherlands will be in
control for the launch of the euro next year, but he has
promised to stand aside after four years in favour of the
French candidate, Jean-Claude Trichet. M Trichet will
then be appointed for a full eight-year term, in line with the
requirements of the Maastricht treaty.

Pauline Green, the British Labour MEP who leads the
Parliament's biggest bloc, said: "If we are looking now at
four for Duisenberg and eight for Trichet, that's a 12-year
appointment. My view is that there had to be - and must
be legally according to the treaty - one central bank
governor for eight years."

Edward McMillan-Scott, leader of the Conservative
MEPs, said that the Tories would voice their disillusion at
a meeting with Chancellor Helmut Kohl in Berlin
tomorrow. He also predicted that the European
Parliament would register its displeasure at the
appointment of Christian Noyer as a vice-president of the
central bank, thus ensuring that a Frenchman was in one
of the top two jobs for the next 12 years: "We don't want
that kind of French continuity, thank you."

For the financial markets, the most devastating broadside
came from the Bundesbank. Klaus-Dieter Khbacher, a
member of the bank's council, said: "The governments
have already named the successor and this is in breach of
the treaty. The next breach of the treaty is
pre-programmed. Today we should have been celebrating
this historic day, but they ruined it."

The financial markets seized on his remarks as proof of
fury within the German central bank and speculated that, if
the mark and its euro satellites come under pressure, it
would move swiftly to raise interest rates or intervene to
ensure a smooth path towards the start of the euro next

German bonds fell by as much as half a point yesterday,
reflecting fears of a more aggressive interest rate policy,
but European stock markets jumped as Wall Street
opened the week on a strong note.

The markets did not, however, signal any loss of faith in
the euro by hammering the 11 euro currencies, as had
been feared and the mark weakened only slightly.

Traders appear to believe that central bankers will use
their combined firepower to beat off speculators and -
despite the messiness of events at the weekend - that the
ECB will be safe under the stewardship of M Trichet, a
man who believes in orthodox "hard money" policies.

European leaders nevertheless found themselves having to
work to repair the damage from the ugly summit. In every
state they were accused of bringing the euro into
disrepute, with President Chirac bearing the brunt of the
criticism - even in France.

The Belgian financial daily, l'Echo, said: "President Chirac
demonstrated matchless chauvinism, putting on a display
of extreme arrogance." And the Dutch media accused M
Chirac of holding Europe to ransom.

Mr Blair, who will make a statement on the summit in the
Commons today, was also widely rebuked for poor
chairmanship in his role as president of the EU council. He
was criticised by Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy,
Denmark and Ireland for failing to consult them during the
marathon squabble, and European commentators accused
him of being ill-prepared.

At home, William Hague complained about a "fistful of
fudges" in the preparation for the euro and the former
Prime Minister John Major accused European leaders of
undermining the central bank's independence from the

The first nationwide campaign to try to persuade voters
to back Britain's entry into the European single currency
will be launched today by the European Movement,
whose members include politicians from all parties,
business leaders and trade unionists.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:09 - ID#233199)
..." the grotesque must always be clever and vigorous...."
A.[.........] sanctum, is one where we may indulge in the groteque and humourous

Here [..Kitco?] it is not inconsistent to perpetuate such extrvagences as will provide mirth, but the grotesque must always be clever an vigorous. Feeble grotesques must be avoided.

Anon; London 1879
( ref. on request )

(Tue May 05 1998 02:11 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....

Maybe it is late

And I am tired

But I don't have a clue

About what your last post meant

Huh uh

(Tue May 05 1998 02:19 - ID#153102)
You did not answer the questions I posed.
You have not come to grips mentally with the reality that a government exchanged $US obligations paying interest for gold.
You are mentally deskbound. And come to Kitco for entertainment. To tilt at windmills.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:20 - ID#410215)
..... A question to Mr. and Mrs. Kitco, and all the ships at sea .....

If you pull some dollars out of your pocket

And buy some gold

You are wise, yes?

Is the fellow who sold it to you

To be considered stupid?


(Tue May 05 1998 02:26 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....

I don't have a clue about what you are talking about. If you have a question, ask it plainly. You seem in a bully mood this evening ( not the old English "bully" as in, pip pip and all that rot ) .

There is some gold transaction you are speaking of?

You have questions of the mechanics?

Then at least clue me in to some details

For I don't know what you are trying to say.

I don't.

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 02:28 - ID#24135)
Your accent gives you away
For RJ
You've even developed a deskbound accent

(Tue May 05 1998 02:29 - ID#20135)

Date: Tue May 05 1998 02:19
mozel ( @RJ ) ID#153102:

Thanks for mozel.

SDRer will be back. SDRer is into the hunt.

Goodnight ( to dream of a world where hard currencies rule )

(Tue May 05 1998 02:31 - ID#410215)
..... JD .....

I thought it was the stooped over posture

And the limp, that gave me away

Could use some sun too

Lookin' a bit pale

(Tue May 05 1998 02:35 - ID#290118)
I was wrong - when the cookcu goes off pull down the menu by the users name and choose receive. e-mail me at

(Tue May 05 1998 02:40 - ID#410215)
.....Mozel .....

Is your computer on a desk?

Just asking......

(Tue May 05 1998 02:40 - ID#33164)
- I salute you & sympathise with you in your dilemma.

Please don't leave Kitco entirely? ( :- ) )

With respect & warm regards.

(Tue May 05 1998 02:43 - ID#410215)
..... JD .....

Maybe it was the elbow bunions..........

(Tue May 05 1998 02:50 - ID#284255)
GCM8 forming a wedgie?

XAU/Gold ratio short term

XAU/Gold ratio long term

(Tue May 05 1998 02:51 - ID#257148)
SDR-er --- I hope I am not blasted for doing a Farfel, but
I repeat a post a month ago:

Date: Thu Apr 02 1998 04:51
aurator ( It is time that it was said.... ) ID#257148:
What trails you blaze!

What novel thoughts you encourage!
I watch in awe
as your razor mind slices through the undergrowth of my dark confusion.
What demons you defy!
What incubi you ignore as you shake us from our dim slumber!
You are the vanguard to higher thoughts.

Bless you.


There are some posts that need repeating monthly, perhaps this is one. There are others like: "Thank you Bart, for hosting this site." that could be repeated every day, yes?

(Tue May 05 1998 02:54 - ID#153102)
RJ. What is the point of repeating written questions ? I think you are mentally so much into your job of trading metals that what the goldbugs say doesn't penetrate your thinking. That's all. You have a great understanding of the gold market at Comex, etc. And I hope you will kkeep Kitco informed of your opinions on it.

(Tue May 05 1998 03:05 - ID#290118)
Come on Over
To the God Bar and Bulls*** group - K2.
If you are not already there under an alias.
Among Pierre, Swamp Boy, Redneck, Jose, Jeeves,
Gusto Oro, Auric, Kommissar and Cueball
nobody would know you are there.
It is like a costume party!

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 03:06 - ID#24135)
Dont go away
For SDRer
Just adding my voice to that of so many others. You have
been doing work in a key area. It is important to me. I dont
have any idea what went wrong here. If someone did something,
Oris will fix his wagon.
Im confused on this .. but please try to deal with it and
dont stop your efforts or your posts.

(Tue May 05 1998 03:07 - ID#290118)
fat fingers again
That is the GOLD Bar and Bulls*** group.
Come on in. The insanity is fine!

(Tue May 05 1998 03:12 - ID#153102)
I hope SDRer comes bsck to kitco from the hunt to report whatever he finds.

This from one of Speeds Euro links:

"The European Council of Madrid has overeengekomen that at the latest on
januari 1st 2002 Euro-coins and bills will be circulated. According to
the managment of the Mint of the member states, four years are required
between the resolution on the technical specifications.

In order to dispose of enough coins in 2002, the technical preparations
of the immense operation begins during the summer of 1997. The actual
production will take two or three years.

The metal of the old coins can be reused. 76 billion coins circulating
in the 15 member countries contain about 150.000 tonnes of Nickel. The
use of plastic money will probably reduce the number of coins with about
20%. Some 15% of thcontain about 150.000 tonnes of Nickel"

This implies base metal country coins will be reminted into base metal Euro coins.

There is one group which must know the truth about Euro coins. Those are the people who are responsible for modifying the coin operated machines in Europe.

There are some unanswered questions about timetable in all of these public announcements on Euro and a lot of them seem to turn on coins.

(Tue May 05 1998 03:31 - ID#284255)
Dear God

The passion and the search in vain?
Does death indeed end all?

At what point, where, and how
Can we transcend the understanding
Ever confirm the faith?

This restless driven mortal
Put on immortality
This turbulent flesh
Meld with the ecstasy of spirit
Access the mystery of love
Transcend the passions.
And achieve in peace
The long sought Grail

Dear God
When can this ever be?
And if ever so
Why then denied to me.

(Tue May 05 1998 03:43 - ID#340302)
... Bre-X management facing financial ruin. It will send a clear warning to gold mining executives, "Act properly or you will certainly get the same!"

The sooner general investors see the Bre-X culprits stripped of their stolen assets, the more confident they will feel in making further gold investments.
Tuesday, May 5, 1998

Walshes' assets frozen

Injunction covers bank accounts, real estate belonging to Bre-X CEO and his wife

The Financial Post
The bankruptcy trustee has tightened the legal ropes around Bre-X Minerals Ltd. chairman David Walsh and his wife Jeannette, with an injunction in the Bahamas freezing their assets. It's also filed a lawsuit alleging they cheated investors on expense accounts and the bill for a failed venture. News of the freeze came yesterday on the first anniversary of the Strathcona report confirming Bre-X, far from being the greatest gold find of the century, was among the world's greatest stock frauds. The Walshes face lawsuits stemming from the scandal over and above the huge class action suits filed in Canada and the U.S."We don't want to get into a situation where we sue in Canada, win, then go
to collect and there's nothing there," said Ross Nelson, partner at bankruptcy trustee Deloitte & Touche Inc. in Calgary. "So this is a way of going in and freezing those assets while the litigation runs, so that if we're successful, there's money there."

The freeze covers the couple's personal bank accounts and the accounts of three Bahamian corporations they're believed to own -- Heam Ltd., Balogh Investments Inc. and Walco Holdings Ltd. The Walshes are also prohibited from selling their property in Cable Beach. The writ from the Supreme Court of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas also obliges the pair to disclose all their worldwide holdings to the trustee. That information will not be made public at this point. The injunction closely resembles one Deloitte slapped on Bre-X exploration chief John Felderhof in the Cayman Islands in December. Like Felderhof, the Walshes have been put on
a weekly allowance. Nelson declined to reveal the amount. Deloitte also quietly filed a lawsuit in Calgary last month to get about $10 million back from the Walshes and their son, Sean. The statement of claim alleges the trio charged $655,098 in personal expenses to a Bre-X American Express credit card, but that "such expenses were not business expenses."

"It's our allegation that the American Express bill was simply arriving at Bre-X and being paid every month," said Nelson. "There was not sufficient information there to establish that it was for any valid business purpose."

David Walsh responded in his statement of defence that he could not get a personal credit card because he had declared bankruptcy in 1992 and he had signing privileges on his son's card. He denied there was a Bre-X credit card. Walsh said all his business expenses were supported by invoices and said he paid personal expenses on Sean Walsh's card himself.
The suit also says Walsh was paid US$160,000 by Bre-X in September 1996 for a personal investment he had made two years earlier in an Indonesian eco-tourism venture that had since failed. Nelson said Deloitte believes Walsh put in for the money after the venture's collapse.
"That's our view," he said. "There was never any indication in the records, or directors' minutes that this was an investment authorized or approved by Bre-X."

Walsh's statement of defence says it was "a requirement of doing business in Indonesia that there be a demonstration and provision of benefits to the local economy.

"Bre-X did not have sufficient funds to initiate the venture and, as a result, defendant David Walsh advanced the sum of US$160,000. When Bre-X had sufficient funds, the advance ... was repaid."

In its suit, Deloitte is also going after Walsh for US$6 million that Bre-X was forced to pay out for allegedly bungling definite ownership of the Busang property. The court document says that under Walsh's guidance, Bre-X struck a deal for US$80,000 in 1993 for an 80% interest in a joint venture that held the key contract of work on Busang. But the transaction proved ineffective and, despite another deal and another US$20,000, Bre-X was forced to fork over US$6 million.

"We're saying the senior officer of the company who claimed to have expertise in mining and mining operations in Indonesia, and the raising of money, should have put in place the proper things to ensure they got good clean title right at the beginning," Nelson said.

Walsh's statement of defence counters "it was his honest belief that the option had been properly documented and obtained with the assistance of appropriate legal counsel."

(Tue May 05 1998 03:58 - ID#340302) often make very incisive remarks concerning gold... is a pleasure to read your agile mind.

The dollar value of gold today may transmute to a EURO value or an Asian Currency Standard value tomorrow.

American dollar hegemony is not a God-given right in this world. It is something that has existed in history less than a century.

Did the British ever imagine a day would come when its hegemony over the Commonwealth would dissipate to nothing?

What does the British pound buy today in different parts of the world? How much of the global trade in oil and gold is conducted in pounds?

So long as the world remains in flux, with various countries rising and falling in economic stature with each passing decade, then GOLD will remain a pandemic store of wealth.

The greatest problem America faces today is it is run by a soft generation that was born and raised in an evironment of hegemony. This generation believes this hegemony is a birthright.

If the day comes where this generation must fight for its "birthright," will it be up to the test?

If not, then would you rather hold U.S. dollars or gold?




(Tue May 05 1998 04:03 - ID#173274)
@the scene
OK. I'll try this ICQ maskerade party. Number is 12063388. Someone give it a shot. I apparently need to add numbers to a user list.

(Tue May 05 1998 04:30 - ID#153102)
Here's some citations for your consideration:

"Fraud vitiates the most solemn contracts, documents, and even judgments."
U.S. vs. Throckmorton, 98 U.S. 61. "contracts"; "documents";
"judgments" See also Amistad.

Chief Justice Marshall said either we obey all the national
Constitution or we obey none of it. See Marbury v. Madison,
( 1800 ) 1 Cranch ( 5 U.S. ) 137, 2 L.Ed. 60.

"We are bound to interpret the Constitution in the light of
the law as it existed at the time it was adopted." Mattox v.
U.S., 156 US 237, 243.

"...we must extend the authority of the Union to the ( persons ) of the
The Federalist Papers. No. 15. page 109. Clinton Rossiter Ed.

"...It must carry its agency to the ( persons ) of the citizens..."
The Federalist Papers. No. 15. page 116. Clinton Rossiter Ed.

How the Government see's it:

"Where act uses the word in a special sense which it defines,
definition by average man or by ordinary dictionary is not a
substitute for the definition contained in the act." National
Homeopathic Hospital Ass'n of D.C. v. Britton, 147 F.2d 561.

"Where words are defined in a particular statute, and it is
clear that Legislature intended to give to such words a different
meaning than one generally and ordinarily given to such words,
statutory definition is one to be applied." Sisk v. Arizona Ice &
Cold Storage Co., 141 P.2d 395.

Lets see if we can all get the word "person" straight
when it is used in a Statute. As we see it:

"3. But when the word "person" is spoken of in legislative
acts, natural person will be intended, ( unless somthing
appear in the context to show that it applies to artificial
persons." ) Bouvier Law Dictionary ( 1859 ) ( Emphasis Mine )

"This word 'person' and its scope and bearing in the law,
involving, as it does, legal fictions and also apparently
natural beings, it is difficult to understand; but it is
absolutely necessary to grasp, at whatever cost, a true
and proper understanding of the word in all the phases of
its proper use...The words persona and persona did not have
the meaning in the Roman which attaches to homo, the individual,
or a man in the English; it had peculiar reference to artificial
beings, and the condition or status of individuals ...A person
is here not a physical or individual person, but the status or
condition with which he is invested...not an individual or physical
person, but the status, condition or character borne by physical
ARE ARTIFICIAL PERSONS. Thus the conclusion is easily reached that
the law itself often creates an entity or a being which is called
a person; the law cannot create an artificial man, but it can and
frequently does invest him with artificial attributes; This is his
personality...that is to say, the man-person; and abstract persons,
which are fictitious and which have no existence except in law; that
is to say, those which are purely legal conceptions or creations."
American Law and Procedures, ( 1910 ) Vol.13, pp. 137-162.

If you are not an Artificial Person by creation of law then you
are a Natural Person. This all gets corrupted when the government
uses its own definition of words out side of the known definitions
in the law dictionary's.

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 04:40 - ID#24135)
Randgold Resources quotes
To sportsfans
Quotes on Randgold Resources trading in London can be obtained
free at
You will have to go through a registration step. It opened
at $6.00 ..

(Tue May 05 1998 04:43 - ID#340302)
...yesterday, a certain Israeli gent drove me around West L.A., showing off his hefty real estate empire. I must say he had quite a nice collection of properties, most acquired at distress prices during the early-Nineties when people were fleeing L.A.'s riots, earthquakes, fires, mudslides, etc.

He expressed concern that the L.A. market was becoming overheated...far too much vertical price frenzy...and he urged me to consider buying one of his properties before prices would soar much higher.

In my mind, I thought, "Are you nuts? Why should I buy a property in such a heated market? I would rather rent. If I buy, then you remain the genius and I become the fool."

Yet, I like the man and did not wish to make such negative statements.

So I posed some questions to him.

I asked him how much debt he carried.

The answer...$20 million.

I thought this man must be fearless. In fact, knowing he served in the Israeli Army as an officer, I knew he was fearless.

I asked him whether he had taken actions to protect himself in the event of a sudden, swift real estate collapse.

He told me he had ample earthquake insurance covering all his properties.

I thought, "He is Israeli. Maybe he did not quite understand me."

So, I asked, "Do you have financial earthquake insurance?"

He asked me to explain myself.

I told him all about the U.S. dollar, vertical stock markets, crowd mania, gold, silver, Buffett, Soros, etc.

By the time I had finished, this tough Israeli soldier seemed the very picture of anxiety -- beyond anything I would have imagined possible.

He declared he would raise some cash and buy gold/silver immediately...a lot of gold and silver.

The irony: the man intended to sell me a house and I ended up selling him an investment philosophy.

My point: fierce lions like my Israeli friend are usually too preoccupied with the micro-exigencies of life to introspect much or take a good look at the macro picture. They usually are far too busy building their intricate empires. Yet, if a mere hour of compelling conversation can instill enough anxiety in a fierce lion such that his entire investment philosophy "spins on a dime," then just imagine what will happen once the average citizen gets a little fear?




(Tue May 05 1998 05:01 - ID#255151)

Lots of red on world markets

(Tue May 05 1998 05:21 - ID#33024)
Analyze of gold (updated)

(Tue May 05 1998 05:34 - ID#255284)

Oh How I love this place

the nooks and the crannies

the cobwebs and the chaos

the learning

the fighting

the hursuit persuit of the de troot

i mean trooff

thank you all for lighting the torch to greater curiosities: The history of money; The stories of gold & PMs; The Elliot waves, the plastic rulers, the vix and Xau, the Hui and DAC. SA miners and Aussies too, EMUs and IMFs, BIS and guns, jokes and recipes.. Thank you all. All who have contributed to the laughter, the knowledge. Oh m. what ya all being doing to this leeetle auraspeakeasy fella is to make him grateful to y'all.

truly grateful



(Tue May 05 1998 05:46 - ID#393224)
Thanks Stephane.
In my schoolboy French, above blue line = good. Below blue line = not so good.

G'day Auracious/Auric.

(Tue May 05 1998 05:50 - ID#33024)
(yes Nick@C)

(Tue May 05 1998 05:58 - ID#393224)
Translation of Stephane's comments.
In English:

Dynamics hawser of gold it is blunted a little during the rupture depression of
the strong zone of support 306-309$. This is not too dramatic because one
can compare this backward flow to a return ( Sweater back ) :

- on the weekly moving average ( in red on the graph ) - on the support of the
trend haussier of medium term ( pink on the graph ) - on the resistance of large
the trend bear ( in blue on the graph ) These three parameters constitute a
factor of major support in zone 298-300$ ( see flche on the graph ) . This
return goes in makes determine or not the solidity of the movement haussier, I
am explained:

- the courses go up in the short run to test level 306-309$ before carrying out
a last return in the zone 298-300$. Then one attends a new going beyond of
306-309$ ( that would be trs positive ) . The scenario haussier would be
validated an increase towards 320-330$ would be the objective with
court/moyen term. - the courses go up in the short run to test level 306

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 06:00 - ID#24135)
Peace It Is
For RT/Oris
OK peace .. I withdraw Klutz .. I also tear up my
Hamas application form as I was gonna have a lot of trouble
explaining it to my wife anyway...

(Tue May 05 1998 06:27 - ID#255151)
G'day Nick

Been thinking about the economic/political link in the markets. The Republicans have taken off the gloves and are ready, even eager to get nasty. Too much uncertainty in the air now. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Dow and Clinton head into a big downward spiral. Could catch everyone napping. Present company excepted, of course!

(Tue May 05 1998 06:30 - ID#185448)
A currency without backing, ha!
Some things I simply dont understand.

Why should the europeans prime ministers meet to generate such dissappointing and poor outcome, when there has been done sooo much work before?

Why should a man like Duisenberg agree such a decision, which is in fact a devaluation of his person. Has that man no pride?

Is soft-launch" a correct expression in the lands of the anglo-saxon-tongued?

What, if the goal of this meeting simply was to launch the EURO, without worsening the situation for the european economies. Launch it, create some confidence - but not too much.
- There is not too much instant repatriation of european money,
- not too much USD to be transferred to europe.
Everything stays the same, nothing essential changed. Not too much pressure to raise interest rates ( which is an inhaerent danger still ) , not too much change in the cross-rates between USD and european currencies, which have declined somewhat 20% in the last 18 month. This aided the european economies via raising their USD-denominated exports and made the monetary-union possible. Beggar thy neighbour. Thank you? Yes!

Cage Rattler
(Tue May 05 1998 06:39 - ID#33184)
Rangold (JSE) down 6.15%

(Tue May 05 1998 06:42 - ID#286199)
R.J. @ 2:20
There's an old Hebrew proverb that may answer your question:

"It is good for nothing, cries the buyer;
But when he has gone his way, then he boasts.

One aspect of a free market is that both parties to a trade leave the table believing that they made the smart move. Yes?

When do you sleep?

Cage Rattler
(Tue May 05 1998 06:44 - ID#33184)
Rangold (JSE) - minimal volumes moving the price (2700 shares)

(Tue May 05 1998 06:49 - ID#26793)
Leader of Japanese opposition party wants yen at 110 to the dollar.

(Tue May 05 1998 06:49 - ID#377211)
Ceaux-Dutheil@analyse de l'once d'or et du DOW
Regarding the DOW, I believe ( IMHO ) that we are going to revisit 8900 shortly before going higher. No volume yesterday on the DOW and bad Japanese Candle... The DOW ( and other indexes ) have lost their ooomph in a hurry ( yesterday, in my book ) . Short term top ( for this week ) has probably been placed for the DOW, IMHO...
Regarding "l'once d'or"... I think that your charts ( as you said ) do not give a clear idea where we are going this week... especially when the EURO is being created.
Good luck

Bully Beef
(Tue May 05 1998 06:59 - ID#259282)
F*...Notas a big time real estate guy but as a thrifty 24 year old without a life
I bought a cottage in rural Ontario fixed it and sold it for a lot of money in a real estate boom. I did it 3 times and as a 30 year old I had a lot of cash.I took all the cash and put it in a premium waterfront home and the market deep sixed. The home is now for sale at a loss.Since then all my available cash has gone into equities and the GOLD fund. What next? One must invest balanced.I'm going to sell that houyse low just when our market here is coming back. Somebody is going to get a deal.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:04 - ID#26793)
Looting and rioting continue in Indonesia. Police shoot to kill.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:04 - ID#432157)
Bully Beef


(Tue May 05 1998 07:09 - ID#26793)
Currency traders target weakness in the Venezuelan bolivar

(Tue May 05 1998 07:11 - ID#365216)
RJ got me thinking. . .
If a person or company seeks to sell you their precious metals coins/
bullion, is it because:

1. They wish to unload what they have and re-invest in non-PM assets?

2. They do believe in long-term metals appreciation but are trying to
churn sales to make cash to buy even more metals while hoping that
prices don't zoom in the interim?

3. They are trying to run a business selling a product that they truly
believe will benefit the customer, while hoping to make a fair
profit for their enterprise in the meantime ( most likely, these
people already have their stash bought at low prices which will
only be sold once a PM mania is underway ) ?

Makes you wonder sometimes when you read all those nice color ads
from PM Companies selling their coins and listing all the reasons why
you should buy. Even more reason to decide for yourself what you want
and go looking for the best price.



(Tue May 05 1998 07:14 - ID#57232)
Weakening DOW -- US markets probably down today
sharefin: Our mini-rally post the downturn ( ping II ) seems to be weakening. I think the key to short term trends is what happens in China, Japan and South Korea. I find Japanese affairs too murky to understand, but it is clear that China is on the brink, as it is not just a question of the SOES begin bankrupt, it is the liquidity/debt coverage of the entire mainland Chines banking system. Members of the Hong Kong stock market community are alarmed.

I sold my sp-500 calls yesterday, and will wait for the next bottom.

I wonder -- does the strange behavior of the Europeans regarding their launching of the EURO have anything to do with a desire to inflate their part of the 1 trillion in bad debt generated during ping I? I agree with SDRer that gold-backed currencies will not be in vogue until after SEAsia launches one. It seems that the Europeans do not want to seriously challenge the US dollar.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:14 - ID#26793)
U.S. tells Saudis not to cut oil production in price increase attempt.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:22 - ID#26793)
Gold higher in Europe yesterday on expectations of Euro reserves.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:24 - ID#57232)
Comments about weak EURO launch

(Tue May 05 1998 07:31 - ID#57232)
Logging off!
Morning Donald! Looks like Venezuela is approaching the brink again. I doubt they have much gold to sell if they implode, but if they go off line regarding oil production that will be a sign the oil prices are reaching a bottom.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:33 - ID#238295)
Donald; That article shows again that US regards Saudi Arabia and other Arab oil states as mere puppets as I have been saying for a long time. Any who don't jump through hoops will be demonized as was SH.

JSE gold index flat this morning, but other JSE indexes down sharply. This marks a big change -- JSE industrials and financials have been booming for a long time even as the gold index got smashed. The beginning of a new paradigm for these markets?

(Tue May 05 1998 07:35 - ID#26793)
Morning gold and PM analysis from Europe

(Tue May 05 1998 07:41 - ID#26793)
@Old Gold
There is indeed a touch of arrogance in that message. Hey; the IMF does it every day! Yesterday Malaysia complained about the IMF telling them what to do, then, in the same press release, Malaysia tells Japan what it should be doing! We need the good old days back when gold did all the talking!

(Tue May 05 1998 07:45 - ID#289357)
Donald, Old Gold

This kind of arrogance from the US may play directly into the hands of those producers ( re: ANOTHER ) who wish to trade oil in terms of Euro, gold, etc. Interesting times.

(Tue May 05 1998 07:47 - ID#341189)
Donald's 7:14 on US talking down the cartel
Something about this rings a discordant note. With oil at $15, we are worried? We used to try to keep oil high in order to encourage consevation and domestic exploration. The oil service stocks have run up recently. Is there something on the radar screen we are missing?

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 07:50 - ID#287367)
Re: An iceberg called Y2K

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Voss ( )
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 11:58 AM
Subject: SNET: Re: an iceberg called Y2k


I wrote this note ( appended below ) to you about two days before I had read the now infamous Time Magazine April 27 issue on the superbanking cartel and the "future of money". But my comments were based on knowledge of smartcard technology and RF transponder microchip implant technology that I knew of a couple of years ago. I have a book with reams of marketing literature from Texas Instruments, Hughes, and other companies on their bio implant products and the injection guns that can be used to do mass insertions ( these products were designed for use with livestock and such ) .

Two or three years ago the typical glass encapsulated RF transponder microchip was physically about the size of a grain of rice. It has been a constant goal to further miniaturize these so I expect the latest generation devices are still smaller. Likewise, the CPU processing prowess has probably increased. It is possible now that the entire functionality of smartcard embedded microprocessors might be duplicated in the bio implant chips variant.

However, I can think of some possible constraints: once a chip is implanted it is not practical to upgrade it to new generation technology. With a physical smartcard one can always be issued a new generation smartcard with the latest and greatest features. Therefore I think it is more pragmatic to simply use the bio implanted microchip strictly as public key cryptographic authentication device. You get an implant to establish your unique identity and be able to cryptographically authenticate any activity or operation that you might engage in. A smartcard would still be issued ( that only you could authenticate transactions with via your bio implant ) . In addition to authenticating use of your smartcard for economic transactions and such, the bio implant could also authenticate your access to telecommunication devices such as telephones, cell phones, fax machines, and any point of Internet access. Likewise all email systems could be devised to require such authentication prior to use. Personal computer systems could be modified to require such authentication in order to be able to log on and use them. In short, the entire modern computer/communications infrastructure could potentially become a system to where only known entities have access to it via their bio implant ID microchips.

So in the future, if our society does transition over to such a scheme, one would not be able to buy or sell or communicate unless one could use a bio implant chip to authenticate oneself onto these connected and monitored systems. Although E-cash might be used off-line, it could ( and would ) still possess an audit trail capability. Likewise, the only ones that will be able to avail themselves of such an E-cash would be those that can authenticate their smartcard transactions via their bio implant ID chips.

Obviously all this discussion is hypothetical. But it is based on technology concepts that have already existed for quite a number of years and have been widely deployed in some cases. E-cash is perhaps the newest facility that is still being perfected -- though it is certainly already in use. There is also a massive global tracking system scheme code named L.U.C.I.D. that is being deployed. This system is described by its creators as being able to track all manner of financial transactions all the way down to smartcard use. I believe that the NSA is chiefly responsible for this system. Its stated purpose is to be a tool to be used by international police investigative work. Monitoring and tracking "criminals" around the globe. However, like most such federal initiatives, it pretty much operates on the presumption that all of us may be potential criminals and thus should be monitored routinely. Our governments now routinely engage in snooping and spying on private activities. They no longer wait to have probable cause to begin such surveillance on suspected criminal parties. Instead their rational in the modern age is to presume all citizens may be potential criminals and thus surveil them at all times in relevant activities.

If we're good little boys and girls, then we should have nothing to fear, goes the rationale for this kind of surveillance police state. But replace the word "good" with "politically correct" and the connotations of why a surveillance police state is evil becomes obvious.


(Tue May 05 1998 08:08 - ID#26793)
Oil price rally halted

(Tue May 05 1998 08:12 - ID#254269)
Malachi Martin. Who is he ? I saw several references to him earlier but could not determine f
anything about him from the references I saw.

(Tue May 05 1998 08:18 - ID#26793)
"If the price (oil) falls to $12 or $13 we will see real trouble".

(Tue May 05 1998 08:18 - ID#289357)
Interesting charts

Constant-dollar Crude Oil

Gold Sentiment

(Tue May 05 1998 08:20 - ID#289357)
Crude Oil Envelope chart - short term

(Tue May 05 1998 08:22 - ID#22584)
Avalon (Malachi Martin. Who is he ?
Try this:

(Tue May 05 1998 08:31 - ID#317193)
If I was any cause be assured the subject is closed from further comment from this quarter. Please post as before.


(Tue May 05 1998 08:34 - ID#22584)
Mildy interesting note
In reading the Malachi Martin web page I came across this note about the book "Tragedy & Hope" that was the subject of a number of posts yesterday.

"If you haven't read Tragedy and Hope ( the "wheelings" and "dealings" of geo-politicos
who have invented, fashioned, and manipulated history, to their own gain, at the expense
of masses of people in nearly every nation ) ... if you haven't read The Leipzig
Connection ( about German social philosophy that invaded the American educational
system at the turn of the 1900s via Columbia Teachers College, New York City ) , then
the concepts behind Windswept House may seem fanciful, or at least, unfamiliar."

Windswept house is Father Martin's novel about international political manipulation and the Vatican.

(Tue May 05 1998 08:42 - ID#185448)
Watch the frames
Obviously someone delivered a big sack of palladium.

Paul Gold__A
(Tue May 05 1998 08:47 - ID#21484)
Weekly Market Commentary
The first of a series of short weekly gold market commentaries by ABSA Mocatta is now available at - click the comment button on the opening page.

By the way, the buttons have been constructed using gold coin images.

(Tue May 05 1998 08:48 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Fred -- Or said they would. Now you know why it currently has HUGE margin requirements! Now up 1.50? What a concept!

(Tue May 05 1998 08:53 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Fred -- June Palladium actually isn't acting bad. Up 7.50 to 308 with a low of 300.5.

(Tue May 05 1998 08:59 - ID#243166)
SILVER/Mike Sheller
Any comments on silver charts would be welcome. Into SSC @ 1 1/4. Looking for more.

(Tue May 05 1998 09:08 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Done't everyone speak at once.

(Tue May 05 1998 09:16 - ID#317193)
When both gold and silver are up and silver leads you know it will be an interesting day.


(Tue May 05 1998 09:20 - ID#254112)
@mozel: My initial reaction to your post from 4:30 this morning...
..was: the most important thing for Americans to survive in the future is to forbid any further law and to nullify all existing laws.

Maybe that's also true for all the legal systems in European countries, but there it seems that law is based on more outdated principles but having a milder, less dangerous role in society.

But before I continue to persue such radical conclusions I'd like to ask for your advice how I can study best the principals of American law, means the political and legal philosophy of the founding fathers, and after that the most important forces which have caused to bend and turn things around until America reached the legal mess in which we see this society today.

Maybe it was the impossibility to come to grips with a variety of social and ethnically rooted concepts, which cannot be brought together.

For instance: when I lived in Berlin, a few decades ago, I had a friend from Tansania, who grew up in this country under British colonial rule. I learned very interesting things from him. For instance, he went to a kind if an elite school which was run by Brits, and the students received physical punishment ( i.e., they were beaten ) if they were caught of speaking their native language on the school yard or in the school.

But the most interesting thing in this connection is the following. He described to me the family structure in which he gre up. In the terms of a sociologist, it would be characterized as "martiarchial, polygamous. His mother had about seven children from different fathers. The brothers of the females, his uncle, played the male role in the family. The males in the family are always the uncles of the children. The children have no concept or understanding of what we, in European societies, call father.
The females have temporarily intense relationships to one man at a time. When a child results from such a relationship, the joy is great in the family and the child is accepted by its half-sibblings and the mother and her brother ( s ) .

Now: how would you get such a concept together with a society, where the expectation ( maybe genetically predetermined ) is: lifelong love between male and female and the resulting family structure with all consequences of laws, hetitage laws and so on.

I wouldn't like to suppress the Tansanian family structure, but I also wouldn't like to disturb the European family structure by denying it's roots. ( Helping the liberals to destroy our concept of family values. )

And now think: there are not only the concepts of martriarchal-polygamous societies, where the mother plays the absolute dominant role, and the brothers have teir duties. There are also patriarchally structured societies, polygamous ones and monogamous ones. How do you get such important mating concepts, which might be predetermined by genetically different tendencies, which again predetermine a possible harmony between sucoscious and cognitive conditions of wellbeing, how can all these differences come under one roof of one society?

Philosophically, I do not have a problem with variety. Because I tend to believe, that the different genetic structure of different human races carries and shows the handwriting of the creator. And we should become aware of His handwriting and honor it.

Viewed under this philosophical concept, the politically correct prohibiton of acceptance of races, is truly a kind of dangerous racism.

But I wrote this now because I'm speculating, what might have destroyed the original legal concept in America. I'm not sure. Before I judge, I'd like to study.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Tue May 05 1998 09:34 - ID#358318)
@Myrmidon May 4 - 01:40 - re Fatemite Caliphs
Subtitled "History turned on a gold coin"

The Fatemite Caliphs apparently gained control of Jerusalem in the
eleventh century and set about persecuting Christian pilgrims as well as
extracting the gold bezant tax which was inherited from the previous more
benign occupiers. They came from Syria.

From 749 AD, Damascus went through different periods; Abassid, Tolonian,
Akhshidian, Fatemite, Ayyoubite, Mamuke, Ottoman, French.

The year 661 Ad marked the beginning of the golden epoch for Dimashq
( Damascus ) , When it became the capital of the Omayyad State and for a
whole century it was the center of the youthful Islamic empire,
stretching from the borders of China To the South Of France.

The Omayyad Mosque of Damascus: This wonder of architecture which dates
back to Al-walid Ibn Abdel Malek ( why does that name sound familiar? ) ...
took ten years and eleven million gold dinars ( why does that coin sound
familiar? ) , as well as huge number of masons, artists,
builders, carpenters, marble-layers, and painters to complete.

Following the decline and fall of the Omayyads, 749 A.D. Damscus went
through different periods: Abbassid, Tolonian, Ikhshidian, Fatemite,
Ayyoubite, Mamluk, ottoman and the French Colonization seeing prosperity
sometimes, and suffering neglect and deterioration other times.
( similar links )

The Basilica of Constantine, burnt in 614 A.D., was replaced in 616 A.D.
by a group of small chapels or oratories erected by the Monk Modestus,
afterwards Patriarch of Jerusalem. A curious plan exists ( cf. De Vogue;
Eglises de la Terre Sainte, p. 161 ) , made by Arculphus about 680 A.D.,
showing these chapels, one being on the supposed site of Calvary, a
second over the cave of the Invention of the Cross, a third dedicated to
St. Mary, west of Calvary, while the Holy Sepulchre itself stood in a
rotunda, called the Martyrion. These chapels were destroyed in 1010 A.D.
by order of the Fatemite Khalif Hakem. They were again replaced by
little chapels ( oratoria olde modica ) , which the Crusaders found
standing, and which they incorporated in their great Cathedral ( William
of Tyre, Viii. 3 ) .

(Tue May 05 1998 09:37 - ID#258427)
Is something wrong with my computer, or...
is silver really bouncing up and down $.40 from 6.23 to 6.67???

who knows??

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 09:37 - ID#340392)
Attention Goldbugs! Re: Three Votes for Gold
from: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"

"The gold stock index made a long-term bottom in January, and is now in a recovery pattern," says Bob Dickey ( Technical Update, Dain Rauscher, 4/1/98 ) . "Long term momentum and relative strength are improving for the first time in over a year, as one by one, the individual stocks are beginning bullish trends. Since the gold index was in a bearish trend for two years, it can be expected that the recovery will also take much time to develop. Menawhile, at least it appears that the stocks have bottomed and now have relatively lower risk. It is also encouraging that on a sentiment basis, negative opinions still abound on the group. Cur D'Alene Mines ( CDE, NYSE ) has rallied more strongly off its lows than the average gold stock. It has good support at 11, and would be a strong buy on a dip to that level, with a stop at 10. Newmont Mining ( NEM, NYSE ) has broken out on heavy volume from a four-month bottoming trading range of 24-30, and now has a short-term target of 36. Support is at 28-29. Buy here, or on any modest low-volume dips, with a stop at 26. Placer Dome ( PDG, NYSE ) appears ready to breakout of the 11-14 range that has held the stock for the past four months. Placer is seeing increasing volume and long term momentum has turned up for the first time in three years. A break through 14 would give a target of 16-17, with a longer term target of 22. Buy with a stop at 11."Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"
"The gold stock index made a long-term bottom in January, and is now in a recovery pattern," says Bob Dickey ( Technical Update, Dain Rauscher, 4/1/98 ) . "Long term momentum and relative strength are improving for the first time in over a year, as one by one, the individual stocks are beginning bullish trends. Since the gold index was in a bearish trend for two years, it can be expected that the recovery will also take much time to develop. Menawhile, at least it appears that the stocks have bottomed and now have relatively lower risk. It is also encouraging that on a sentiment basis, negative opinions still abound on the group. Coeur D'Alene Mines ( CDE, NYSE ) has rallied more strongly off its lows than the average gold stock. It has good support at 11, and would be a strong buy on a dip to that level, with a stop at 10. Newmont Mining ( NEM, NYSE ) has broken out on heavy volume from a four-month bottoming trading range of 24-30, and now has a short-term target of 36. Support is at 28-29. Buy here, or on any modest low-volume dips, with a stop at 26. Placer Dome ( PDG, NYSE ) appears ready to breakout of the 11-14 range that has held the stock for the past four months. Placer is seeing increasing volume and long term momentum has turned up for the first time in three years. A break through 14 would give a target of 16-17, with a longer term target of 22. Buy with a stop at 11."

The preceding was not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service. More to follow....

(Tue May 05 1998 09:41 - ID#26793)
Japan knows a bubble when it sees one; U.S. has one under construction.

(Tue May 05 1998 09:44 - ID#213265)
@the scene
BillD -- That's just Barts 'silver quotes that cried wolf'. One day it'll actually do that and we all won't believe it.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 09:46 - ID#340392)
Three Votes for Gold
Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"
"While all eyes are glued to the soaring Dow, behind the scenes, the worldwide demand for gold continues to grow," notes Larry Edelson ( Safe Money Report, P.O. Box 109665, Palm beach Gardens, FL 33410, 12 issues, $148, 4/3/98 ) . "Demand in the U.S. up 9%, has reached record highs. In India, demand for gold surged 45% in 1997. Uncertainties surrounding the new European currency should also increase gold demand. New purchases of gold in Japan are outpacing sales by 4 to 1. This leads us to one conclusion: gold's current lull is about to give way to a powerful bull market. If you're not fully invested in mining shares ( up to 15% of your portfolio ) take advantage of the current hiatus to buy our favorite gold stocks. Agnico Eagle ( AEM, NYSE ) is a buy up to 6 ; Barrick Gold. ( ABX, NYSE ) is a buy on dips to 20; Bema Gold ( BGO, ASE ) is a buy up to 3; and Glamis Gold ( GLG, NYSE ) is a buy to 5."

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service... more to comeRe: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"
"While all eyes are glued to the soaring Dow, behind the scenes, the worldwide demand for gold continues to grow," notes Larry Edelson ( Safe Money Report, P.O. Box 109665, Palm beach Gardens, FL 33410, 12 issues, $148, 4/3/98 ) . "Demand in the U.S. up 9%, has reached record highs. In India, demand for gold surged 45% in 1997. Uncertainties surrounding the new European currency should also increase gold demand. New purchases of gold in Japan are outpacing sales by 4 to 1. This leads us to one conclusion: gold's current lull is about to give way to a powerful bull market. If you're not fully invested in mining shares ( up to 15% of your portfolio ) take advantage of the current hiatus to buy our favorite gold stocks. Agnico Eagle ( AEM, NYSE ) is a buy up to 6 ; Barrick Gold. ( ABX, NYSE ) is a buy on dips to 20; Bema Gold ( BGO, ASE ) is a buy up to 3; and Glamis Gold ( GLG, NYSE ) is a buy to 5."

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service... more to come

(Tue May 05 1998 09:47 - ID#26793)
Camdessus says failure of Congress to bailout IMF will cause "Major Crisis"

(Tue May 05 1998 09:52 - ID#26793)
Fed seen to be draining reserves from the banking system.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 09:52 - ID#340392)
Three votes for Gold
Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"
"Gold funds have performed nicely since our December 12, 1997 bottom buy signal," says Walter Rouleau ( Growth Fund Guide, Box 6600, Rapid City, SD 57709, 12 issues $99, 4/98 ) ."We belive that signal was the beginning of a new bull market in gold and that you can expect huge percentage gains in the gold funds. Lexington Strategic Investments ( 800-526-0056 ) has a good chance of eventually being the best performer among all gold funds if, as we expect, this is the start of a new bull market. The reason for this is that the fund has a high African gold content and African mines, on average, are the most undervalued by far."

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service.... more to come.Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "Three Votes for Gold"
"Gold funds have performed nicely since our December 12, 1997 bottom buy signal," says Walter Rouleau ( Growth Fund Guide, Box 6600, Rapid City, SD 57709, 12 issues $99, 4/98 ) ."We belive that signal was the beginning of a new bull market in gold and that you can expect huge percentage gains in the gold funds. Lexington Strategic Investments ( 800-526-0056 ) has a good chance of eventually being the best performer among all gold funds if, as we expect, this is the start of a new bull market. The reason for this is that the fund has a high African gold content and African mines, on average, are the most undervalued by far."

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service.... more to come.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 09:55 - ID#340392)
The Last Word...from Dick Davis Digest
Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "The Last Word..."
"Barrick Gold: With deficit earnings, Barrick's cash dividend appears to be in jeopardy. But with a yield of 1%, it's safe to say that investors do not purchase this stock for income. Thus, a dividend reduction is unlikely to hurt the price. Meanwhile, low-cost production, quality management, and high capacity mines are in Barrick's favor. This is a good stock to own for the long term. Gold will shine again"

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service. Caveat emptor.Re: Dick Davis Digest Vol 16 No 381 ( 4/20/98 ) "The Last Word..."
"Barrick Gold: With deficit earnings, Barrick's cash dividend appears to be in jeopardy. But with a yield of 1%, it's safe to say that investors do not purchase this stock for income. Thus, a dividend reduction is unlikely to hurt the price. Meanwhile, low-cost production, quality management, and high capacity mines are in Barrick's favor. This is a good stock to own for the long term. Gold will shine again"

The preceding is not the opinion of Crystal Ball and is presented as a public service. Caveat emptor.

(Tue May 05 1998 09:57 - ID#258427)
@Eldo....what in the he!! is going on with spot silver
July silver remaining flat at 6.25...but bart's spot all over the place...from -.08 to +.45???

Is spot really jumping like this ( would be very unusual ) or is Bart just jumping all over the place??

(Tue May 05 1998 09:59 - ID#26793)
Looks like the Fed has been up to something different.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:00 - ID#348286)
@Silver - the reason
WB made very farourable comments on silver on NBR, after the meeting in Omaha.....

(Tue May 05 1998 10:01 - ID#226286)
Last chance on the RANGY half-price sale?
John and Vronsky, thanks for the info on RANGY'S NAV. Great info and looks like we were right to be buying this one. Backed up the truck and loaded it to the max last week with more cheap shares. Will fill up the cab this morning, and maybe even the glove box.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:03 - ID#213265)
@the scene
BillD -- I don't see the 'jumpiness' happening anywhere else. And the July silver range of 6.33 to 6.16 or so isn't quite flat.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:04 - ID#341189)
SDRer, You just have to comment on this Camdessus quote from Donald's 9:47
``I believe in a globalised world the idea of a globalised institution able to recycle permanently the resources of the world community is safer, sounder and probably much less costly for the taxpayers.''

This is pretty bald stuff - "permanently recycle resources"! You think this man has forgotten his roots?

(Tue May 05 1998 10:07 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Carl -- Man is irrelevant. He'll be re-cycled too. Ever hear of soylent green? That's about where these jokers come from!

(Tue May 05 1998 10:09 - ID#410215)
..... That's good eatin' .....

Eldo -

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm Soylent Green

(Tue May 05 1998 10:09 - ID#31868)
Camdesuss is a scumbag
and he should be RECYCLED at the first opportunity. Get Camdesuss!!!

(Tue May 05 1998 10:10 - ID#342315)
How about giving me a call today. I've got something for you, Thanx
704 433 6473

(Tue May 05 1998 10:14 - ID#427357)
Elliott Wave Analyst Predicts $3,131 GOLD

Recognized Elliott Wave Theorist forecasts zooming gold price based on his analysis: "When we do this arithmetic, we obtain a number of $2,854. When we add this number to the low of Wave 4, we arrive at a gold price objective of $3,131."

Joseph Miller's EWT may be seen at the following website. As usual it will be necessary to close the space in front of the word "-eagle" before posting the URL to your Internet locator:

(Tue May 05 1998 10:17 - ID#348286)
@Canadian Buck getting hammered

(Tue May 05 1998 10:19 - ID#348286)
@Canadian Buck getting hammered - Go Gold anyway - 3131
BOC are incompetent at supporting the buck, should be much higher.
Not a good indicator for Gold.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:19 - ID#341189)
I don't know what soylent green is. Is that a soilure?

(Tue May 05 1998 10:20 - ID#298259)
Vista Gold happenings...

Mike Stewart
(Tue May 05 1998 10:20 - ID#270253)
Technical Update
Good Morning from Canada!

The Toronto Gold Mining Summation Index peaked on April 24th at +934 and has been in a gentle downtrend since. This is viewed as short term negative until it reverses.

The New Lows for Toronto Mining issues has remained between 0 and 4 per day over the past two weeks. This is what you would expect in a correction.

The trendline that rises at 2% compounded weekly ( from the last bottom ) is at 7087 this week. The Toronto Gold Index closed yesterday at 7352. This trend line usually contains corrections in a bull market. Turnarounds often occur around this trendline. ( +- 100 points )

I use 3 day charts with Bollinger Bands to guage the XAU and Gold during a Bullish phase. The middle band usually contains short term corrections and is still holding this time.

So far, no serious damage to the gold shares, but I would like to see the Summation Index turn up before getting too excited.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:22 - ID#254269)
IMF Question; What happens if Congress does not approve additional
money for IMF?. What are the rammifications for Asia ?

(Tue May 05 1998 10:23 - ID#210235)
You done Stephane proud with your superb translation! LOL

(Tue May 05 1998 10:23 - ID#31868)
Avalon - that is simple,

(Tue May 05 1998 10:24 - ID#210235)
Mr. Camdessus will tell everybody the US isn't king of the mountain anymore. And they will get the money elsewhere on better terms.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:27 - ID#410215)
..... Pardon the accent .....

General -

A combination of all three , I would guess.

1998 Platinum Eagles are available.

Speed -

I like those old proverbs. Seems they had a clearer view back then.

Planning to get some sleep, when I'm dead.

Aurator -

"the hirsute pursuit of the de troot"

This line will not be topped today.

Farfel -

"How much of the global trade in oil and gold is conducted in pounds?"

None. Oil and gold are traded in US Dollars


(Tue May 05 1998 10:27 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Carl -- Science fiction so far. They even made it into a movie. Recycle human bodies into food for other humans.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:30 - ID#339274)
FWIW Silver target remains 7.80 ,XAU 90.Wild ride of silver
will get the metal out of weak hands.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:32 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Avalon -- Those who made bad loans get to eat them rather than the taxpayers picking up the tab. Ramifications for Asia? Their funny money con game gets funnier, but so what. It's already dead! Start over with a non debt-based system. The ONLY answer anyway!

(Tue May 05 1998 10:32 - ID#341189)
Thanks, a truly appropriate metaphor.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:34 - ID#284255)
A New Era for Stocks?

If the IMF don't get the $18b;
What are the ramifications on the US and Europe?

Are they only $18b away from crisis?

(Tue May 05 1998 10:36 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- I was over at the US Mint web site late last week and it said those platinum pieces wouldn't be available 'till early summer. Is this not correct or is early summer upon us, or, as usual, is this the typical government forcasting at work?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 10:37 - ID#384350)
Jump through the Hoop, SH
This guy I met in a bar told me that in the some oil ventures, with Bush family connections, put some oil wells in Kuwait near the Iraqi border, then proceeded to drill laterally or diagonally into Iraq under SH's turf. SH wasn't too happy so he decided to take Kuwait. Bush had his little war and took it back.

Does anyone have anything substantiating this?

(Tue May 05 1998 10:39 - ID#57232)
A little entertainment from Zola Times
All: a Matt Drudge Cartoon series!

(Tue May 05 1998 10:39 - ID#410215)
..... More PGM Manipulation .....

Remember last year, when the Russians manipulated the price of palladium by press release alone? Witness the following. There will be more of this. Platinum is still the buy of the year here.

Russia may delay PGM export to end summer-Interfax

08:43 a.m. May 05, 1998 Eastern

MOSCOW, May 5 ( Reuters ) - Russian exports of platinum and palladium may be delayed until the end of the summer because of government restructuring, Interfax news agency quoted a source at state export agency Almazjuvelirexport as saying on Tuesday.

The unnamed source was quoted as saying that because of the impending merger between Russia's Economy Ministry and the Ministry of Foreign Economic relations and Trade, exports would start "no earlier than the end of the summer.''

He added that a range of supplementary documents which needed signing before exports could begin would not now be signed before the end of the summer.

Almazjuvelirexport was not immediately available for comment.

The head of the finance ministry's precious metals and stones department said the comments represented purely the opinion of Almazjuvelirexport, and he would not confirm that the extra delay may take place. Russia, which is the largest producer of palladium in the world and the second largest of platinum, has not exported either metal so far this year, sending prices soaring as a result.

Last year exports did not start until the second half of the year due to similar delays in granting export licenses, and the Almazjuvelirexport source was quoted as saying this year exports may start even later.

These are clever folks, yes?


(Tue May 05 1998 10:44 - ID#410215)
..... 98 Eagles .....

Eldo -

I got connections. At the very top 


(Tue May 05 1998 10:45 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- So what you charging for 'em, plus shipping etc.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:48 - ID#432157)
Ted Arnold-Merrial Lynch

How much do we know of this person. Web page ???????

(Tue May 05 1998 10:51 - ID#31868)
RJ - pretty simple really
the west won't lend the money, so Russia screws them and the rest of the world by raising the price of plat and pall.

(Tue May 05 1998 10:56 - ID#410215)
..... A dubious quote .....

"The gold market for the time being is a one-issue market and that market is the European Central Bank,'' said Merrill Lynch analyst Ted Arnold in a report.

"The bulls... argue that no more gold sales will be allowed by the ECB for some years to come and that lending to the bullion market will be strictly controlled," he said.

But without the traditional tools of interest rate control and exchange rate adjustment, individual national governments... will be left only with fiscal powers."

And one great revenue source will be the gold sitting in vaults of the national central banks."

Does anyone want to bet that Merrill is short gold?

It would seem to follow a pattern, yes?

(Tue May 05 1998 11:00 - ID#410215)
..... is the a Tiger in your pocket .....

T1 -

Have you read the reports about the depletion of Norilsk ore?

This is big news, from independent sources.

And this news should be trusted.


(Tue May 05 1998 11:06 - ID#31868)

(Tue May 05 1998 11:06 - ID#254269)
@ sharefin; your 10.34. Did you mean that the US and Europe is only 18 B.
away from crisis ? Or did you mean IMF ?

(Tue May 05 1998 11:07 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Biggest problem I see with the platinum is the $20+ difference one normally sees between the bid and ask price. Combined with shipping and insurance, one might need a sixty dollar move to break even on a two-way trade if one is really expected to buy at ask and sell at bid. RJ. Correct me if my figures or rational are out of line please.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:10 - ID#226286)
RJ, can ya beat $421 and free shipping? Anyone found better?
Does Bart sell Plat Eagles? Hey Bart, how about a Platinum promo coin?

(Tue May 05 1998 11:11 - ID#410215)
..... I trust no Russion source .....

T1 -

That's the point, these are trusted western sources. Much has been written of late as to the general disrepair at Norilsk. I posted a link to the story on Saturday, I think. I have seen reports from Baron's and others about Norilsk. It does not look good. And no western money to be had as long as the government is in such turmoil.


(Tue May 05 1998 11:16 - ID#410215)
..... PE .....

Based on 397 spot, $421 delivered. I cannot beat it, but to tie is good, yes?

(Tue May 05 1998 11:18 - ID#57232)
$18 Billion away from crisis? HA!
sharefin -- I got a kick out of your post. There is $1 trillion of bad debt floating around somewhere from Ping I, and mainland China alone has at least another $600 billion of European/Japanese/American debt that has gone sour. No matter how you slice it, $18 billion is small potatoes.

I still haven't figured out where that $1 trillion + debt is going -- probably will be rolled over as another form of debt -- to turn up as inflation at some later time -- 5 - 10 years from now.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:19 - ID#238422)
Depletion of Norilsk ore?

Can be true and can be not true... How can you
possibly verify this kind of info? No way you
can do it, sorry...Just no way...

There are no independent sources of info. If
these sources are connected to other palladium
producers or traders - I will question validity
of such sources...You know this stuff, I'm sure.

In general, T1 is correct. Stay away from this
old "naive foreigner and talking russian" trick...

(Tue May 05 1998 11:19 - ID#410215)
..... PS .....

Bid price is a couple bucks OVER spot.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:23 - ID#213265)
@the scene
421 delivered is so far the best number I've seen! But I still wonder why the bid/ask is about 2.5 times larger than for the golden eagles.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:26 - ID#208393)
Re: Ted Arnold - Here we go again
The rumours and far fetched theories seem to get all the attention at this site. Remember this guy's previous misquote? When a guy like W. Buffett who invested in a boatload of silver gives his opinion of why it was a sound investment everyone ignores it and goes searching for the next negative fabrication.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:29 - ID#284255)
Just my thoughts
But where does the money go back to?

If someone owed you 18b and you knew that another person was willing to lend them 18b.
Wouldn't you encourage the second person to lend the money to the first?
You would want to get your money back pronto!

Now if you were under pressure financially,
Would not you be emphatic in your efforts?

Asia's already in a crisis
IMF's already in a crisis
Time for the next fish upsteam!!!
Who's not in a crisis
But who's shouting out, "There's a crisis coming".

But the first two are already in a crisis
They know that already.

Next fish please.

Where's this rat running to? Y2K hidaway.
When the big boys run?
Weekend Vancouver Sun from James Langton of the Sunday Telegraph.
Bill Gates is buying the Palmyra Atoll, 2 hours by plane from Hawaii for $47 million.
( has landing strip already from US troops WWII )

Completely isolated.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:29 - ID#410215)
..... Its all in the source .....

I have GREAT respect for the abilities of Russian spin pros.

Any assessment of ore must be made by insiders in the industry, yes?

A cement contractor would not be a qualified source for this info, no.

So here is ONE source from Friday:

Seymour Schulich, chairman of Franco-Nevada Mining Corp Ltd ( FN.TO - news ) , told analysts at a London presentation that the company believed the Norilsk ore body was close to depletion.

"The main source, which is one of the ore bodies at Norilsk, is pretty well exhausted and that is why you are not seeing palladium coming onto the market," Schulich said.

I subscribe to the belief that information is useless, unless you know the source.


(Tue May 05 1998 11:31 - ID#31868)
RJ - I understand clearly that that is the point that you are stressing. I
am still saying I TRUST NOTHING out of RUSSIA even if it passes through western lips.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:31 - ID#20135)
Donald ( Looks like the Fed has been up to something different. ) ID#26793:

Doanld, I think that you are correct. I can not remember when the Fed drained reserves THREE ( 3 ) days in a row.

There are times to focus on gold and there are times to focus on the USdollar. I think this is one of those times that we focus on the USDOLLAR. The other strange story ( recent ) was the treasury paying down debt becasue it is awash in dollars.

I think we are starting to see USdollars coming home. The fed has to cleanse the system of these UNUSUAL inflows. The EURO is a reality ( at least for the moment ) and spells EXCESS USdollars. Japan , China and Asia are sick of the IMF and the USdollar and are looking to a local trading currency ( Yen based IMHO ) . This situation spells EXCESS USdollars.

Combine that information with a outflow from mutual funds ( and interesting action in bonds ) and maybe, just maybe, we are seeing the first ripples of the tsunami.

I think you are onto something Donald, thanks for pointing it out.

It is a good time to watch the Usdollar.


(Tue May 05 1998 11:32 - ID#410215)
..... Kitkat .....

Read what Teddy says

Then believe the opposite

(Tue May 05 1998 11:39 - ID#410215)
..... I AGREE with you .....

T1 -

I have personally spoken to some who have been inside Norilsk in the last year. Production capacity is 25% at best. Electricity does not extend throughout the mine. 1940s era equipment is breaking down with nobody to fix it and no parts available in any case. The miners have not been paid for two years. At best the Russians can produce but a trickle of their former production.

The ore depletion story fits well with the rest of the picture and is confirmed through independent sources. I am a hard man to fool and all such stories must pass a rigorous credibility check.

I believe it.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:40 - ID#238295)
Ted Arnold
Gold holding despite another attempt by Ted Arnold to knock it down. Can't wait for Andy Smith to chime in.

FV in his conference call did admit there probably will be more CB selling in the years ahead. But the amounts involved will be relatively modest, and these sales are likely to made on a scale up -- not at firesale prices. So CB selling will serve more as a force capping rallies than a factor triggering declines. An important but frequently overlooked point.

(Tue May 05 1998 11:41 - ID#31868)
RJ - gulp to ya!
This shall be settled by Father Time...fair enough...Check oris's cufflinks, he may be suggling a small amount at a time...crafty, very crafty...

(Tue May 05 1998 11:41 - ID#284255)
JTF - in Indonesia
Doesn't the trillion or part thereof just disappear.

If you've got a million$cash
And buy a million$ worth of assets - paper ones - not gold

And the value of you assets
When you are forced to sell or want to sell
Have halved.

Hasn't that 1/2 million$paper just disappeared?

After all it's only notional paper.
Only worth the given value on the day.
Like all derivatives, stocks and bonds.

Shame the guy didn't buy gold and watch his assets go up.
But I bet a few canny Indonesians
Never watched their paper burn.
I remember the story I heard about someone from there - Indonesia
Shipping gold to PNG mines to smelter and sell through.
Canny smart thinking - hey


(Tue May 05 1998 11:44 - ID#410215)
..... Mama raised no fools .....

Believe me

I do NOT underestimate the Russians

No, indeedy

(Tue May 05 1998 11:44 - ID#31868)
I think sharefin just made a linguistic first, a typo I know, but think about--------
"notional paper" brilliant, brilliant...

(Tue May 05 1998 11:51 - ID#284255)
JTF 'Ping-2' son of 'Ping-1'
Any thoughts on the size of 'Ping-2'?
3 to 4.5trillion's my guess
With the the next 5 to 8trillion coming off after Y2K - next seven years.

The global bourses are looking very wobbly.
Swing chart's looking sick still.

Email chatter;
Clinton was just on tv a bit ago and he looks terrible. His eyes have bags under them that they look like they are full up with fluid big time ( or whatever else he would pack in them ) . He happened to say that because of the euro, all those countries would have to open up their market to the globe. That was all they showed.

are we getting some heavy hitting by the boys. Yesterday on cnbc they flashed an interview with Clinton all day, today we just had an interview with Rubin and now they are flashing it. Then later today we get a meeting between Rubin, Clinton and Greenie. I understood it to be shown, but could be wrong on the showing. Anyway they are meeting to discuss the economy. Man. these guys are afaid of something to give us all these interviews.

They sure know it is getting close. Just listening to cnbc and it is "is your mutual fund in trouble" Here is the perfect summary of Rubins speech just now.
lowery . . Tue, May 5, 9:15AM CST ( -0600 GMT )
he did lay down a marker that everyone should look at valuations very closely before investing and irates relative to that ....hmmm..preparing an "i told you so" escape ?

(Tue May 05 1998 11:54 - ID#345176)
@ Trinovant
Trinovant, I greatly appreciate your 09:34 post which I have been waiting for. It is very informative, Thank you for taking the time to respond, I will busy be checking the URLs,

(Tue May 05 1998 11:55 - ID#238295)
An Unfortunate Correlation
Vronsky: Is it just my imagination or do gold and gold stocks tend to head south after ultra bullish posts from you?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:00 - ID#238422)
What is right is that Norilsk got huge problems.
It is easy to see while visiting...

In general, I never play any games, when Russia
is one of major players. This games are for strong
guys who have ability to loose in the first place
and hope to make money in the second place. Will not
invest in Russia under any conditions...Will be sorry
for those who invest...Will buy goods from Russia if
I SEE those goods, usually no problem...

(Tue May 05 1998 12:04 - ID#347235)
Orris,John Disney
Orris, thanks for the mediation process.
John, peace at last. I understood most of what you were saying but some of my fellow Jews were hurt by it and asked what I would do, of course being a soldier for 26 years I immediately jumped in with grenades, claymores ( a very fine weapon by the way ) and shotguns ( nothing better close in ) I will endeavor to keep from this in the future UNLESS I am attacked personally. Shalom

(Tue May 05 1998 12:05 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Sharefin -- I really do not see the S&P going any further north. Looks like a triple top formed over the past month, and I just cannot seem to draw a line that makes it go further 'cause what I've drawn so far, yesterdays action came up and 'touched' the base of, and that line and old high numbers generally form that resistance. All the rest are now 'support' areas residing many layers deep. That's how I see it at this time and until it proves itself differently.

L. Long
(Tue May 05 1998 12:05 - ID#245113)
Heard the President is meeting with Greenspan today

(Tue May 05 1998 12:06 - ID#347235)
John Disney
Maybe we can help out the Middle East talks, you can talk to BIBI,and I'll kick the S*** out of Yassir?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:08 - ID#284255)
That's all paper has ever been - "notional paper"

We only need to look at any chart to observe the fluctuations.
High one day, lower the next.
Good news and it goes up,
Bad news and it goes down.

The "perception is the 'reality' of the notional value".

Confidence/stability is what gives a steady market.
Chaos has the opposite effect.

That is why gold is the "vechile of choice"
In times of chaos
Just look at the price of gold in Indonesia.

With the Euro, Y2K, and the US and European bubbles
All about to go "POP"
With lots of chaos
We all know the effects these events will have on the POG

"It doesn't get better than this"
Is the same as stability
We are at a all time cyclical high on the charts
When we plot; stability - chaos.

Like Donalds Dow/Gold ratio chart shows.
There is only one way that chart is heading
Down - and if not now, then soon.

And then there is only one way
That gold is going and that is up.

Nature = the flux between stability and chaos

Gold may get cheaper short term
But that will be the last buy
Before lots of chaos comes home to roost.

We will watch these changes together. Yes?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:09 - ID#390415)
Gold down....
XAU up .53% at 86.39

(Tue May 05 1998 12:15 - ID#288295)
US dollar Index rolling over (Look out below)

(Tue May 05 1998 12:16 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- How does your platinum spot price compare with the Kitco spot?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:26 - ID#284255)
HK is about to tank through 10k to retest 8k
Nikkei could well follow the same path
Confidence is waning throughout Asia.
The IMF is failing and shouting out for help.

European indices look precarious to say the least
And the volatility is getting irrational.

Confidence is waning cash is getting low
And AG, BC and RR are showing the signs of stress
This bubble is about to burst.

They gave it the vote of confidence last Oct.
This time they know that they can't do that again.
It will only make it worse.
They will have to prick it here.

Soon, watch their faces.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:28 - ID#220325)
RJ How important is Norilsk?
Does it supply much of Russia's Platinum & Palladium
( % ) ? Thanks.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:30 - ID#31868)
Yes! Gulp to ya!

(Tue May 05 1998 12:31 - ID#194311)
Euro = SwissFranc = 40%GOLD ...only way this can work.
( EURO ) Euro, Swiss franc seen close partners in money markets

ZURICH, April 26 ( AFP ) - The euro and the Swiss franc will
become inseparable allies, pundits say in Switzerland, where the
advent of the single European currency is arousing a high level of
Observers in Switzerland, a landlocked country outside of the
European Union, express confidence about the new look money, which
is due to make its landmark launch in January 1999.
Klaus Wellershoff, chief economic of Swiss Bank Corporation said
the euro has the potential to become "not only a stable currency,
but also a strong currency."
All, however, are agreed on one point. As Wellershof says:
"There is no other country in the world that has as much interest in
seeing the euro become a strong currency."
The Swiss National Bank repeats like a mantra Switzerland's
vital interest in seeing the euro a success.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:31 - ID#220325)
Vronsky has a great South African gold site
Http:// Remember to drop of the en after gold.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:33 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Sharefin -- You think it might initially take bullion with it a bit when it happens?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:34 - ID#252150)
But without the traditional tools of interest rate control and exchange rate adjustment,
individual national governments... will be left only with fiscal powers."

And one great revenue source will be the gold sitting in vaults of the national central banks."

This has been my greatest fear. With their high unemployment they will be desperate for revenues to fund their social programs. Not unlike the impoverished aristocracy who were forced to sell off their family jewels & silver in order to keep up appearances.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:36 - ID#31868)
When the market tanks, wait, then take money and throw it at PWN on NASDAQ.

Thank you.

Gulp to all of ya!

(Tue May 05 1998 12:38 - ID#194311)
I wonder if considers IMF debt as an infinitely recyclable resource?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:39 - ID#269191)
Down, Down, Down we go!
Looks like a close below $300 is in the bag.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:40 - ID#339274)
sell signal
FWIW break below XAU 86 is a sell .Should occur this hour or next

(Tue May 05 1998 12:40 - ID#31868)
sharefin - question -
are you in Fla in the states?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:41 - ID#269409)
*LGB Gold Report ... (Condensed Version)
The Gold market is ..... "As before"
The price of POG is .... "As before"

Thank you

(Tue May 05 1998 12:43 - ID#269409)
As I tried to mention last week...several times... ( and this ) SILVER is where you should be right now...

(Tue May 05 1998 12:46 - ID#284255)
JTF, Eldorado
Here's a chart of the "tick" @ 720 minutes
You can see the volatility entering the market.
Over the next few days the red down ticks should keep expanding
With occasional up ticks.

I wish I could show the same info for Oct97 to compare to.
I know that I spent a lot of time watching the waves expand.

"Ping-2" not coming soon but already here.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:49 - ID#371237)
Wall Street goes on a lunch break
Wall street goes for its lunch break, .... discuss the situation, and sell more in the afternoon... Just a Guess. No more buyers at these levels... A drop of 100+ this afternoon

(Tue May 05 1998 12:50 - ID#223391)
@IMF left their calling card
with Suharto. He's allowing prices to go wild for energy and other essentials. Now his soldiers are shooting to kill the rioters. He is paying the high price for cooperating with the IMF demands. And the whole world is watching. No wonder Clinton and pals look grey today.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:51 - ID#424345)
The End, My Friends
One thing to watch for is what sharefin calls "irrational volatility" ( 12:26 ) . When systems start to break down one symptom is "oscilatory instability" which happens when feedback loops start getting out of synch and the system starts to over and undershoot in larger and larger cycles until the thing flys apart.

"Irrational volatility" in european markets would be of particular concern because they ARE changing systems over there with the transition to the Euro. Lack of a steady hand at the tiller could lead to disaster and a still born monetary union. ( Not to mention severe unplesantness in the markets.... )

(Tue May 05 1998 12:52 - ID#284255)
When it goes over the cliff
It should hold POG back for a week or so
A look at HK when it tanked shows this.

God help any paper when it does.

Cairns OZY-land

(Tue May 05 1998 12:52 - ID#26793)
Canada says it has sold no gold since October, 1996, due to weak prices.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:54 - ID#290118)
Millenium Coin
I asked Barrick at their website via e-mail to about the rumors regarding a millenium coin. Their answer - FWIW.
"The coin is one of many ideas groups are discussing, unfortunately we have no information on the subject yet."
Anyone else have any further info?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:54 - ID#290118)
Millenium Coin
I asked Barrick at their website via e-mail to about the rumors regarding a millenium coin. Their answer - FWIW.
"The coin is one of many ideas groups are discussing, unfortunately we have no information on the subject yet."
Anyone else have any further info?

(Tue May 05 1998 12:55 - ID#290118)
double posts
Either my fingers are too fast or something weird is going on her.
Sorry guys.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:55 - ID#372262)
Agree with your last post 100%! Be careful, or I may have to start calling you THE PROPHET WHO SHARES! :- ) Prediction; DOW will TOP by the middle of May! China will join the devaluation play! HK will follow as Sharefin has shown, while the rest of the Tigers'll start eatin' their own! Euro will stumble as rates start to rise, while Germany's Kohl's in for one hell of a surprise! Rubin and Greenie will print money like mad, while IMF loans to ASIA turn bad! Metals will test the mettle of some while Japanese sell dollars and call their loans home! Time to sell paper before it all burns and turn to ANOTHER for wisdom to learn!

(Tue May 05 1998 12:55 - ID#194311)
Silver bullet
hiho and away......

(Tue May 05 1998 12:58 - ID#31868)
sharefin - that is what I thought, the other day someone mentioned you
were in Fla. I drink alot of tequila, but not that much. Thanks. Gulp to ya, now that I know that portion of my brain still works.

(Tue May 05 1998 12:59 - ID#223391)
@Tolerant 1, watching Camdessus squirm and loving it.
Sharefin is online at ICB now. You can find out all about his locale. Enjoy!

Here's the brief directory I've got so far:

Sharefin 11918936
Wombat 11918911
Tyler Rose 11940452
Donald 11928983
Eldorado 12063388
Kitco Bar and Grill 11998901 ( this is also Sam's, not owned by Kitco )
Aurator 11944264
Squirrel 11954224
Sam 11922834
Steve Blizard 11925719

Also Studio.r showed up at a chat. Don't have his listing. See you there


Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 13:00 - ID#384350)
Stephane's Analyse D'or

Stephane's sees a short term rise to retest $306-309, then a pullback to $298-300. This support is crucial. If it holds he sees a rise to $320-330.

If it doesn't hold, the case for an upmove is invalid and in this case, he sees gold dropping to the Jan lows or even much lower.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:01 - ID#31868)
a time-frame question to all - how long could/would/might it take for the dollar
to become wallpaper? Best guess scenarios.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:01 - ID#223391)
Oh yeah, I'm 11961385
really BBL this time.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:02 - ID#411259)
..... PGM .....


Norilsk is the largest nickel mine in the world and the source of virtually ALL Russian PGM production.

Aprox 60% palladium, 20% platinum of world production. Since Russians PGMs are not on long term contract, as the South Africans for the most part are, these supplies have a bigger effect on NOW prices. Palladium is too high, it may top platinum, but there is an exodus out of palladium and back into platinum by the largest auto manufacturers.

Eldo -

I don't know. It is one of the great mysteries.

When backwardation kicks in things get dicey

Have seen wide differences twixt the spot prices on my screen and the prices on Kitco. I think Bart has explained it before. When I talk spot, I am talking the cash market.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:03 - ID#284255)
That 'oscillational instability' is apparent within the European markets
They have fallen into lockstep as well.

It is also apparent in the tick chart I just posted
As well as the 'Prem'

Golden Prophet
I'm just a bear waking up after a nap
Sharpening my claws on the trees.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:04 - ID#31868)
Prometheus - what in good gravy is
11961385 ?

(Tue May 05 1998 13:10 - ID#212197)
all: US$ significantly down for the third day against major European currencies.
The Asian currencies are stable against the US$.
So, if something big is in the making in Asia, it must be very different this time from last October.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Tue May 05 1998 13:12 - ID#284255)

(Tue May 05 1998 13:14 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Sharefin -- Nice chart. Makes sense to me. I also think POG will make a bit of a drop when it happens. But of course, all caveats apply.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:18 - ID#43460)
Minority viewpoint about y2k disaster
Suppose you have an alcoholic uncle who spends the family into ruin, goes on binges, gambles, fights with neighbors, molests your cousins and wrecks the car. Then someone says, well at such and such time, he's going to be arrested and taken to jail for two to five years.

The natural response is to rejoice that you and the family will have time to recoup, regroup and get on with your lives. Unless some codependant person decides to bail the SOB out. In that cas it will be business as usual while he continues his bizarre control of the entire neighborhood.

IMHO I will relax and enjoy y2k while it lasts.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:19 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- I have always considered spot to be the cash market. However, I can look at three different sites and find three different numbers. Generally, without always having live commodity prices on the screen, I always go by the 'change' for the day to tell where the commodity price probably is. At least when it isn't in backwardization. But thanks.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:19 - ID#194311)
It does make you go blind!
Not gold related but may cause pharmaceuticals to droop.

Eye doctors say more studies needed on Viagra

SAN FRANCISCO ( May 5, 1998 12:26 p.m. EDT ) -- The world's largest organization of eye doctors called for more studies into the newly approved impotence drug, Viagra, and said users with some types of eye problems should stay away from higher doses.

A moderate percentage of people taking Viagra have experienced temporary vision problems, and the American Academy of Ophthalmology, meeting here this week, urged that people take the effects seriously.

"FDA clinical trials show that taking the medication, especially at higher doses, can cause some retinal dysfunction and affect the way we see for a number of hours," association spokesman Dr. Michael F. Marmor said Monday.

Patients reported visual disturbances described as a bluish color tinge and light sensitivity.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:19 - ID#372262)
K-TEL WILL RULE THE WORLD!! UP another 7 1/2 to 75 from 7!! Will use proceeds to buy every ounce of gold at comex and every gold stock on the board! Will buy out Kitco and market Bart's site as a "golden oldie"! You heard it here first, gang!

(Tue May 05 1998 13:19 - ID#31868)
O'tay, thanks.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:24 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Lookin' like the grains might be set for a blast off. Also sugar beginning a move up today from a several day hiatus.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:31 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
LDP Kato compares US to Japan bubble
IMF Camdessus is sure the FED wont move too late
rumor tietmeyer will resign
thinking about camdessus; at GDP almost 5% we'll have at least 1.5% hike til the end of the year; why wait...
rumor an HK sec house defaulted
Denmark is not in the EU, but why did they hike rates today
denmark hike ( 0.5% ) was out of the blue

let me see; if the rates going up 1.5% as "experts" believe no reason to panic. everybody ( cept me ) earn more every day

USDDEM didnt like something
Denmark raised 50bps ...currency under pressure due to prolonged strikes...
jeb do you think europe stocks will like USDDEM under 1.77

all dem bull got alice is MF cash flows which are dryin up ..... when that stuff ends then they got nothin left to drive their magic carpet

course it would ber nice if earnings would jutify some of the increases in equity prices but... silly me.... no one is buying sticks for earnings no more ...just appreciation ....I keep fergettin! sheesh I need reprogramming again

remember...the market place is a place for fool thinks hes selling to a fool at a high price...the buyer thinks the sellers a fool for selling at a low price

"They" have made investment in stocks a mockery....used to be that you bought stocks because the company had strong fundementals and earnings had potential for improvement etc ... today they just buy a name ( prefereably the hottest on on the local tipsters sheet ) and look to flip it to the MF who is forced to by it at any price to fulfill his daily buy quota

It's become one glorified pyramid scheme is all .... and as we all know these schemes eventually backfire and fail miserably

I really don;t know why they employ anal-ysts no more ....whaddya need guys like that to try to predict how high somethin is gonna go next week or next month or next year???? all ya gots to know is how to write a check to an MF .....sheesh they could fire all dem analysts save a bundle and the market would still rise !

market is truly a wonderous thing zaps down 6% and gets right back to where it started from all in 8 trading days ....and it's not even termed a "minor correction" ....bulls are honkin that it was needed before the big fireworks display ( trying to time it to coincide with 4th of July celebrations )

dont forget everybody believes rates going up in steps starting in may and then we'll crash in August, but because every knows that they will sell now

let me guess what bobby has to say: strong funneymentals, low inflation, strong growth, and s.e asia is recoveriing nicely.

he did lay down a marker that everyone should look at valuations very closely before investing and irates relative to that ....hmmm..preparing an "i told you so" escape ??

the index of leading indicators went up 0.2% ( due to money supply and stock prices ) ; greenie is in trouble

greenie is a blithering idiot. M3 has a steeper slope now than in 86-87. when do you think he addresses the problem?

mr. market seems to have come down witha bout of depression, now now there, take this little pill & try to calm down!!

greenie made an experiment and failed...
..but think ( positive ) what a potential he created for the bear
yes. exactly, but when does he admit to the error?

in the 50's as the dow approached 381.7 there was great fear that the country was headed into another depression. solely because we were getting close to the 29 high.Greenspan testified at Congressional subcommittee hearings. you read those transcripts and you get a very different impression from the AG of today.

From CNBC talk this morning "Rubin says yen does not have to weaken to boost economy"

just heard that clinton has called greenspan to the oval office carpet next tuesday, with rubin in attendance.

Clingt-on-blouse gonna try to get greenie out to pasture humble?

he's heard of greenspan's interest rate hike campaign among other fed members, no doubt having been informed by his folks. the last time he did this was january, 1997, before the march hike. it's clearly pressure to keep rates low. rubin's comments this morning were surely part of the campaign. when asked about the stock market, the first thing i heard him say was that some say the market is UNDERvalued. he did later say that some see it as overvalued, but undervalued came first. : )

aahhh this is all starting to make sense now.. My theory that when Cling-to-the-next-blouse-on says market's great,, it tanks, When Rubin comes out to make some utterance, he removes the yuck coming outta Bubba's mouth and get it's upping again, then if neither of that works, they call greenie-- it goes sideways.

more on greenspan/clinton showdown in the monica office of the white house -- clintillians have conveniently "leaked" the last few days that the liar-in-chief himself, has had some private rant sessions about past irate increases. this was not by chance, and not unheard by greenspan, and perhaps more importantly, clinton's appointees.

one rumor has ruby replacing the senile one -

(Tue May 05 1998 13:34 - ID#342315)
kiwi re your 12:31
Very perceptive observation. I'm going to do a little checking on Swiss thinking. Do you happen to have a URL or email for Swiss National Bank? TIA, Charlie

(Tue May 05 1998 13:46 - ID#238295)
POG looks like it "wants" to go back under $300. Final shakeout or bear resumption?

(Tue May 05 1998 13:47 - ID#324266)
$US as wallpaper
1999 US stock market crashes and deflation sets in; USG inflates wildly and calms the situation. 2000 Y2K prevents US elections; Clinton claims Presidency for Life; regional fighting breaks out in NA; Euro collapses amidst continental bickering. 2001 Mideast and Muslim oil priced in gold dinar; energy prices explode upward; $US dollar dumped everywhere. 2002 Fully convertible gold renminbi issued by China as the Asian currency. Trillions of $US reappear in NA as wallpaper.

(Tue May 05 1998 13:48 - ID#194311)

what would you ask them?

(Tue May 05 1998 13:52 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Old Gold -- Yet to be determined I think. But I certainly would not be going long yet!

(Tue May 05 1998 14:01 - ID#408147)
Old Gold is looking like yet another ( final ) shakeout. Without momentum to get POG back above $310, I dont see a way out of this pathetic trading range.

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 14:02 - ID#24135)
That accent
Try this
The rain in Spain falls mainly
on the Plain..
In Heatherford Hartford and
Hampshire Hurricanes hardly
We can beat this thing

(Tue May 05 1998 14:07 - ID#333127)
Gold stks holding in there, SWC downon day,looking to buy it back.

(Tue May 05 1998 14:10 - ID#254269)
I wish I knew more about charts and lots of other

(Tue May 05 1998 14:11 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Withdrawing from the absolute cliff edge? We'll see!

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 14:15 - ID#24135)
Gold is sick
to all ..
If the dollar wasnt sick too.. we'd
be lookin at $290 spot..
One month ago the Mark was 1.85
so 303.5 *1.767/1.85 = 290..
See what I mean ??
Oh why does silver keep gaining
36 cents and then giving it back ??

(Tue May 05 1998 14:17 - ID#213265)
@the scene
I believe that currently 304.7 June is the first 'magic' number to surpass. That could lead to 307.5 area.

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 14:17 - ID#24135)
gold is sick sick
to all ..
If the dollar wasnt sick too.. we'd
be lookin at $290 spot..
One month ago the Mark was 1.85
so 303.5 *1.767/1.85 = 290..
See what I mean ??

(Tue May 05 1998 14:19 - ID#31868)
John Disney-re:silver
The Bartometer needs to be recalibrated.

(Tue May 05 1998 14:21 - ID#342315)
kiwi re SNB
I got the site up, but I could not get anything open. Tried clicking everything??? What I would ask is for an "objective" appraisal of the Swiss franc and Euro relation. Plus any of several things that may come to mind as I get into it. If I can figure what I'm doing wrong, I'll let you know their reply. I even cut off the puter to be sure ISP had not missed a lick. Any comments appreciated, Charlie

(Tue May 05 1998 14:34 - ID#213265)
@the scene
John Disney -- Makes sense to me. But just 'maybe', if the dollar gets even sicker, this MIGHT keep the POG from crashing. Possibilities. Tomorrow will more than likely bring THE answer. But I sure thought the answer would be in today. Well, the 'night shift' hasn't started yet.

(Tue May 05 1998 14:36 - ID#340302)
BATTLE MOUNTAIN sale before end of heard it here first.
Noranda seeks profit margin improvements

Monday, May 4, 1998 06:44 PM

By Robert Melnbardis

MONTREAL, May 4 ( Reuters ) - Noranda Inc. has set new profit margin targets at its core mining operations after deciding earlier this year to shed its forest and energy assets in a major restructuring, chief operating officer Dave Goldman said on Monday.

In an interview with Reuters at the annual conference of the Canadian Institute of Mining, Metallurgy and Petroleum, Goldman said Noranda plans to increase its operating profit margin by C$200 million on an annual basis by the year 2000.

"We've set a long-term return on equity ( ROE ) of 12 percent," Goldman said.

That compares with an ROE at Noranda over the last few years of five to six percent, he said.

Noranda decided recently to spin off to Noranda shareholders its majority stakes in pulp and paper maker Noranda Forest Inc. ( Tse:NF ) and oil and gas subsidiary Canadian Hunter Exploration Ltd.

In March, U.S.-based Union Pacific Resources Group Inc. ( Nyse:UPR ) closed its C$3.7 billion acquisition, including debt, of Noranda's 49.5-percent-owned Norcen Energy Resources Ltd.
( Tse:NCN ) .

Noranda also is seeking to sell its 28 percent stake in Battle Mountain Gold Co. ( Nyse:BMG ) .

"We've had expressions of interest and we are looking at them. We don't consider it as a core holding. We prefer to focus on base metals," Goldman said.

With its renewed focus on base metal mining, Noranda remains interested in acquiring the rest of Falconbridge Ltd. ( Tse:FL ) , Canada's second-largest nickel producer, Goldman said.

Last year, Noranda increased its holding in Falconbridge to 47.5 percent from 46 percent through purchases on the open market.

Turning to the province of Quebec, Goldman said Noranda's C$720 million Magnola magnesium plant project is on track to meet its mid-2000 production start-up date after getting the green light from provincial environmental officials.

Blasting for construction at the site began on April 15. Noranda agreed to C$17 million of modifications for environmental controls and is recosting the project, but does not expect a higher overall cost, Goldman said.

Goldman said Noranda officials were so enthusiastic about the Magnola project -- which will use asbestos mine tailings from Asbestos, Quebec, as feedstock for magnesium production -- that they could seek similar projects. "We would love to find the next Magnola where we could blend the three factors of strengths we have in terms of technology, our marketing group and a metal that has tremendous high-growth prospects," he said.

Goldman said he is hopeful metals prices will rebound over the next one to one-and-a-half years, except for copper, for which world supply is likely to outstrip demand until the end of 2000.

Quote for referenced ticker symbols: UPR, Tse:NOR, Tse:NF, Tse:NCN, Tse:FL, BMG
 1998, Reuters

(Tue May 05 1998 14:38 - ID#340302)
Ooops...I forgot....BATTLE MOUNTAIN buy-out price ($11-$12)



(Tue May 05 1998 14:41 - ID#433142)
To HELL with it . . .
If/when June Gold hits 301, I'm gonna put my arm around Ted Arnold's shoulder, go short at 299, and me & him & Merrill, hand in hand, are gonna ride her down to 280. I know this is sacreligious, but I'm quickly losing my PMA ( positive "metal" attitude ) . Shoulda stay'd in bean oil.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 14:42 - ID#384350)
Buffett & Silver
This is a summary of what was posted at yahoo's BRKA message board by philvalue.

Buffett opened the annual meeting by talking 5-7 minutes with a history of Supply and Demand of Silver in the last 60 years. In the last few years the inelastic demand and inelastic supply has come to a large disequilibrium at the current low ( WB's opinion ) price.

In watching this commodity for the last 30 years, he acted on his accumulated knowledge and "swung for the fences".

His right hand man, Charlie Munger, commented that the Real Lesson in the silver purchase to Berkshire shareholders is not the benefit to the bottom line, but rather in revealing the psyche of that very strange man sitting to his right ( WB ) WHO COULD FOLLOW SOMETHING FOR 30 YEARS, HAVING A DESIRE TO OWN IT ALL ALONG, BUT ONLY ACT WHEN THE "VALUE" WAS BEST IN MAKING A PURCHASE.

Regarding the sale of McDonald's shares, both Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger stated that it was done because SOMETHING BETTER COULD BE PURCHASED. They did not say what that was. WB said he still likes MCD.

Now I comment, was that "Something better" silver? Buffett first started buying silver on July 25, 1997. I believe this was the effective date for the US capital gains tax cut announced last summer.

Is it probable that WB started dumping his MCD shares and then bought Silver with the proceeds because Silver was the "Something Better" that could be purchased?

Another poster cites Buffett as calling the Silver purchase more like a hobby than a major investment.

(Tue May 05 1998 14:56 - ID#263379)
Mr. ANOTHER - Just thinking about his recent words!
Very recently Mr. ANOTHER enlightened us with information about an immanent POG movement. At least, when I reviewed his words thats my read. To all, what do you think? A cryptic mystery:

Sat. April 25 22:55
Mr. ANOTHER writes:
"Germany does offer one answer, If they do transfer their reserves portion in gold, and Germany does make up one third of the RESERVES, then the Euro will have 30% ( + ) gold BACKING by nature of Germany alone"

Well, notice how the gold changed from RESERVES to BACKING...
Can anyone discuss the differences. Do you think the word change was a mistake or intentional by Mr. Another?

Monday April 28 20:40
Mr. ANOTHER writes:
"Post will be the last for MANY DAYS". "I hope to return BEFORE THE CHANGES, as a move ABOVE 360 will show the world that oil has moved for the Euro currency, WE SHALL SEE SOON"

Does Mr. Another really expect a very immanent ( DAYS ) move of the POG above 360?

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 15:06 - ID#288234)
Gold Standard Tax Avoidance
Greetings from a lurker. Tortfeasor should enjoy this. In the word of Homer Simpson, "D'oh!"

T.C. Memo. 1998-148


UNITED STATES TAX COURT. Docket No. 20916-95. Filed April 23, 1998.

William Ray Smith, pro se. Kathey Shaw, for respondent.


Issue 1. Value of American Eagle Gold Coins

At trial, petitioner acknowledged that he insisted on being paid in gold coins for the timber he sold to

C&D. Furthermore, petitioner conceded that he received the form of payment he requested. 6 Petitioner

asserts, however, that for Federal income tax purposes, the gold coins he received should be valued at their

legal tender face value amount of $50. Respondent argues that the gold coins received by petitioner have a

fair market value far in excess of their face value. Thus, respondent contends that for purposes of

determining the amount realized from the sale pursuant to section 1001, the coins received must be classified

as property rather than money. For the reasons discussed below, we agree with respondent.

(Tue May 05 1998 15:13 - ID#307271)
Battle Mountain Gold+
Hmmmm, let's see...wasn't this the PM stock that was recently predicted to reach 14--at least before this PM bull is over?

(Tue May 05 1998 15:13 - ID#434137)
my icq.
if ya get a chat goin i wanna listen.. 2493116

(Tue May 05 1998 15:15 - ID#217268)
Market Top ? or just another Stock with Internet Potential

(Tue May 05 1998 15:16 - ID#340302)
F*'s Evaluation of GOLD market (Early Report & Market Call)

Anyway, I running out to attend a conference today and may not post again until tomorrow. So, I am taking the liberty of giving an extremely abbreviated report, extrapolating from today's action. Ergo, I may prove to be incorrect in my forecast. However, if I am egregiously incorrect ( I doubt it ) , I will repost a correction tomorrow.

Moreover, sometime later ( maybe tonight ) , I am presenting another post, "ATAVISM VS. INTELECTUALISM IN THE GOLD MARKET," a precis of a longer essay I am writing about societal trend shifts.

Today's gold action proved to be lacklustre with gold ending essentially flat. While DOW/NASDAQ stocks moved into a downward spiral in the last hour of trading, the XAU moved higher on relatively light volumes at the end of the day, thereby reconfirming the negative beta ( contrarian trend ) of gold stocks to general industrial equities.

Although I NEVER make market calls ( cough, cough ) , Gold established its Spring bottom today ( give or take a few dollars ) in preparation for a strong run to culminate in a short-term top sometime after Memorial Day Weekend ( May 27-29 ) .

I remain EXTREMELY BULLISH on gold.

Hey, gold market analysis does not come much simpler than that, yes?




(Tue May 05 1998 15:28 - ID#225283)
Champion of Tax

Please post the entire memo...provide us with a link if you would be wso kind...thank you.

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 15:35 - ID#288234)
I'd love to do that, but I can't because I got it off a proprietary service so there are copyright restrictions, plus no web link. Sorry.

Anyway, I can summarize for you. Basically, Smith sold timber off his land only in exchange for Eagles which he valued at face of $50. The Tax Court agreed with the IRS that Eagles are "property" not "money" and thus must be valued at market. The case cited an older case ( you can't actually cite Memo cases as precedent ) , so this isn't new law.

Sure sucks though.

(Tue May 05 1998 15:37 - ID#307271)
Nay Sayers and Murmurers
Thank you negatory folks. Without you, we could have no surge in anything. Especially welcome are the old Gold Bulls who are now licking their wounds and murmuring in the trenches. "Those Canaanites are giants over there", say they. But old Caleb says, "Let's take these putzes !" Gold is about to kick your proverbial teeth in. Sorry, but in life if we can't field a throng of moaners and naysayers, we can't have the victory. Go Gold!

(Tue May 05 1998 15:41 - ID#341189)
Looking at the XAU itraday chart for the last couple days- glad its not my ekg
A-fib? Do techies have a prediction for a fibrilating chart pattern?

(Tue May 05 1998 15:48 - ID#213265)

As an example of the current 'power' of Executive Orders, let me excerpt a viewpoint piece from todays IBD written by Eric Peters titled, Kyoto By Decree? It Could Happen Here.

"If the "global warming" treaty negotiated last fall in Kyoto, Japan, and signed by President Clinton isn't ratified by Congress -- a likely outcome -- it may end up being implemented by decree.

The White House has dropped loud hints since the negotiations ended that should the Senate fail to ratify the manifesto, the president will simply issue executive orders to force reductions in "greenhouse gases.""

Back to me. Of course, the treaty wouldn't get 'ratified', per se, but what difference? If we have a government by executive decree, doesn't that make the executive a 'king'? So what actual type of government DO we have here; A republican form of civil government or, for all intensive purposes, a military dictatorship styled under the Roman emporage'. It would seem that our legislature seems only to exist for appearance purposes. As long as they 'go with the flow', no problem. When they don't, so what, essentially. Is that why the the US CODE indicates that the legislature is 'by resolution only'?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 15:51 - ID#384350)
Champion of Tax
Seems like those bassards are moving the goalposts

(Tue May 05 1998 15:53 - ID#25171)
It seems obvious to me that the messages you are referring to imply that some oil producing countries will make a public statement requesting a partial or total payment of oil with EUROs.This would have the effect of hiking the price of oil in US $ and we might be witnessing the first leg of the other effect which would be a sharp fall of $ vs european curcy rates.

The oil producing countries might feel entitled to these tactics as there is a break of moral contract with the US.The price of oil should never have been so low and the US did their best by trying to prevent IRAQ from exporting oil again.I think the statement is still a few months away and will follow the announcement of the level of GOLD backing the EURO

(Tue May 05 1998 15:54 - ID#307271)
T-wave changes
The last time we say T-wave perturbations such as this was March 23. I believe the result was 4 up from 72.62.

Cage Rattler
(Tue May 05 1998 15:55 - ID#33184)

The New York Times

May 5, 1998 A M Rosenthal

April 30: U.S. approves another $1 billion in aid to Indonesia as part of the international $40 billion economic bailout. President Suharto refuses to break up the multibillion-dollar monopolies controlled by himself, family and friends. He says no political reforms until 2003, at earliest. Police break up student protests.

May 1 -- Washington Times and A.P. say C.I.A. reports China has nuclear missiles targeted at U.S.

May 3 -- President Clinton's June visit to China will include welcome ceremonies at Tiananmen Square. Washington preparing to allow U.S. companies to sell nuclear reactors to China.

May 4 -- Human rights workers report continued oppression in China and Indonesia; more executions in China than in all the rest of the world.

The U.S., its democratic allies and major dictatorships are rapidly building a new world order -- not quite finished yet but already a central part of international life and values.

Its ideology, powers, rewards and punishments are supplanting those that prevailed internationally until 1994, when President Clinton joined the new order. If it continues, it will be the most important new international concept since the end of World War II.

The order was created without formal parliamentary approval by its sponsors, or any treaty.

But every week, sometimes every day, the underlying tenets are revealed, in action. See above.

The following description of objectives and goals of the new order is so different from principles recently assumed in the West, though not always followed, that it may read as satire. It is not.

The fundamental change, demanded by the dictatorships and agreed to in practice by the democracies, is that the internal policies of persecution by the rulers, and the rights of the governed, are not a primary moral or economic consideration of the world.

The democracies, under these values, can protest some internal acts of the dictatorships -- torture and such. But they must do so quietly, not allowing these acts, or often even security interests, to damage the new overriding value of the democratic leaders.

That value is the trade and investment with the dictatorships that the democracies believe important to their national economies -- which are sometimes called jobs, but usually interpreted as corporate profit.

In exchange, dictatorships allow democracies to invest and trade in enterprises the capitalists consider profitable to their corporate strength, although not necessarily to their own employees or the national economic health of their countries.

If the dictatorships, or authoritarian governments as some are known more pleasantly, find their economies collapsing through the corruption generic to such societies, the International Monetary Fund and individual democracies rush to arrive with bailout.

The explanation given is that otherwise the dictatorships' economies would disintegrate, bringing revolution. Now, the people of the dictatorships may long for revolution. Obviously that cannot be allowed to overcome saving the dictatorship and thus rescuing the money invested by nationals of democracies.

Accepting these values, the events dated above become understandable, and even neatly logical.

The Indonesian dictator, for instance, was installed by the army 33 years ago and has been in power ever since. Now he needs scores of billions with which to overcome his own ineptitude and family corruption, and do the right thing by his foreign investors. Who can deny him?

The U.S. gets to sell strategic material to China, offering as an extra a visit by the U.S. President to honor the Communist leaders and expand their power and political life span.

Religious and political mavericks in the totalitarian partners of the new world order get prison, or death, often both.

The press of the democracies gets to write stories about the growth of order in the new order. Other citizens of the democracies get to say costs of imported goods are down, how nice.

Americans and Europeans may come to object for political or moral reasons, or because the new world order may after all cost them their jobs. But they will never be able to say they never knew; see above.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:04 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Cage Rattler -- I don't know about them, but I see sovereignty robbing treaties all about, stacked up like thick walls of brick, with bars imbedded.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:11 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Time to bid adieu for awhile.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:13 - ID#307271)
Closing Indices + XAU
All closing indices in Negative territory except XAU 86.33 UP 0.40...

BMG, Battle Mountain Gold closed UP 1/16 to 6 13/16. Near term goal 11,

intermediate term goal 12, long term 14.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:13 - ID#342315)
Cage Rattler re NWO
Keep on rattling. You have adequately desribed US foreign policy which is dictated by corporate policy. You better watch out". You need eyes in the back of your head". Great post

Aragorn III
(Tue May 05 1998 16:15 - ID#212323)
Tolerant-One...after careful reflection on your post I have an answer...
Date: Tue May 05 1998 13:01
tolerant1 "a time-frame question to all - how long could/would/might it
take for the dollar to become wallpaper? Best guess scenarios."

My friend, what is the square-footage of the wall you are so bent upon defacing? Have you the necessary glue and rollers on hand, or is a trip to the hardware store needed into the time estimate? I'll assume you have the supplies on hand and that the wall is of average size ( 15'X 8' ) . If you will satisfy my need for beer and a nominal gold-payment for labor, it would take no more than two hours for the dollar to become wallpaper.

I hope this helps.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:30 - ID#372262)
Merrill lost their @ss on all those collector rare coins they started purchasing back in the mid-late eighties! They probably dumped 'em when gold crossed $400 in early '96 and shorted gold all the way down to $280 in order to recoup some of their 'Investment"! Another reason is he and BC are in bed together politically. TA is proof they all don't come on horses!

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 16:34 - ID#24135)
Hooray Hooray
to all
Once again we did NOT close below
last fridays low. But I wouldn't
say we were hanging tough .. just
hanging in there.
LGB keeps on "going out on a limb"
and making favorable silver calls..
and silver continues to look sicker
than gold.. one of these days he
will be right though..

(Tue May 05 1998 16:35 - ID#372262)

(Tue May 05 1998 16:36 - ID#220325)
RJ Thanks for the Norilsk information
Let me know if you make it to Victoria this summer.

John Disney__A
(Tue May 05 1998 16:38 - ID#24135)
About that accent
Did you watch a lot of Peter Lorre
movies at some stage??
If you smoke a cigarette, do you
hold it between thumb and forefinger.?
We can beat it Im sure we can ..

(Tue May 05 1998 16:39 - ID#372262)

Steve in TO__A
(Tue May 05 1998 16:46 - ID#209265)
Champion of tax - market value
I'm afraid that in all first-world countries the tax people force you to use the market value of anything you trade, whether currency or goods, for anything else. This is true for gold or silver coins, whether they are legal tender in the US ( like the old silver dollars or pre-1933 gold coins ) or whether they are not ( like the current golden-eagle coin, which does *not* have the same status as the old pre-confiscation golden-eagle coin. )

Under the legal-tender laws you can force someone to take payment with coins that were issued as legal tender, including obsolete coins, but only to the amount of the face value of the currency. If you want to force me to take payment with some St. Gaudens coins or pre-1964 silver dollars let me know- I'll become a willing victim : )

It doesn't matter what value of goods you received for the coins, though, even if they were only worth the face value. The IRS ( or Revenue Canada, or any other tax agency ) will identify the highest value they can for the coins, whether face, bullion or numismatic and declare that to be the income of the guy you gave the coins to. This applies to any other goods delivered in payment or in kind.

- Steve

(Tue May 05 1998 16:49 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother, in place where I graduated from, they called
me "diplomat". Do you think they were right?

Brother, the bad news is that gold, as you mentioned,
sucks...I do not have a clue, it should be $315 today,
and it is not even close. I guess I got to go and have
a really good drink, probably my last drink was not as
good as it had to be...Damn, we are in sh*t and I'm out
of pickles again...

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 16:50 - ID#288234)
Yes, I was aware of that. However since this had been discussed recently on K1, I thought all might enjoy the update. After all, I wouldn't exactly be entitled to my name if I thought otherwise : )

(Tue May 05 1998 16:52 - ID#246224)
First, I apologize for any aggrevation I might have caused to you or others here at any time. Your absence here is keenly felt by all.

'Discretion is the better part of valor' So be strong and return to us when it is good. I'm sure your insatiable drive for clarity will keep you hunting until you reach a great vantage point where you can view the expanse of the plain and its various inhabitants. Bring back a good report to us from time to time if the winds allow. , and good day to you.

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 16:53 - ID#288234)
@Steve again
Actually upon rereading your post I have to take exception to this status of pre-34 gold. The current case held that the standard for "money" was being in current circulation and not having a market value over face. So trading St. Gaudens wouldn't work either . . . maybe I still misunderstand what you're saying.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:53 - ID#20135)
Follow the money...
I would like to suggest that we turn our attention to following the money for the near term. As Donald pointed out earlier today the Fed is acting very strange -- THREE days of draining liquidity ( WOW! ) . Why??? To much money. Where did it come from and why did it come NOW????

The Euro is set to go and that now releases loads of USdollars that are held in Europe and Asia. They will be replaced with Euro's ( in the grey market intially ) .

As people and countries lighten up ( read that unload and/or dump ) USdollars, the USdollar will fall relative to other currencies ( like the Dmark ) . Those dollars will start finding their way home to the U.S.A. How and what is the USG going to do to cover over that there are ever increasing inflows of EXCESS USdollars????

I think it is important to get a handle on USdollar flows because the flows will lead the dollars fall and, OF COURSE, gold's rise.


(Tue May 05 1998 16:54 - ID#20135)
Date: Tue May 05 1998 16:52
Allen ( USA ) ( SDRer ) ID#246224:

Not to worry, all is well. You are a good man and that you are is recognized by everyone.

(Tue May 05 1998 16:54 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.18

(Tue May 05 1998 16:56 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .285

Steve in TO__A
(Tue May 05 1998 16:58 - ID#209265)
Heh, heh . . . Fun & Games with ICQ
Is this Internet Relay Chat thing still going to go ahead? Just thought the more technically-inclined readers would be interested in a site on hacking ICQ. Its an archive of AntiOnline ( )
and you can go directly to the information on the ICQ security hole at:

When they suggest WinNuking your hackee, that means they use a procedure that sends an invalid code to your machine that wipes out your screen and freezes your computer. You can read about WinNuke at:

or even download several different WinNuke programs at:

Better get'em while they're hot, though. Geocities is sure to kick this guy off once they become aware of his content. There are protective measures that can be taken to protect yourself from being WinNuked, though ( at least from the older WinNukes : )

- Steve

BTW: have you folks thought about protecting yourselves from the Ping 'O Death?

(Tue May 05 1998 16:58 - ID#20135)

Date: Tue May 05 1998 16:39

I can't take it. Do you have any info on what Hardball is going to have. Any blood?, guts? of ..... you know who. More people going to jail because they are afraid to testify??? It is not fair I am on the west coast, do I see it later than you?

( sorry for the outburst )

follow the money--USdollar flows

(Tue May 05 1998 17:05 - ID#254269)
@ Donald; What is all time high D/G ratio and when ?

(Tue May 05 1998 17:11 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 49.69

Steve in TO__A
(Tue May 05 1998 17:15 - ID#209265)
Champion of Tax - you're right
You're absolutely right. I think we're saying the same thing. I like the way the courts define money- it's by definition the intrinsically valueless stuff the central bank issue by fiat.

I guess it's really a linguistic difference- since hard-money Kitcoite goldbugs refer to gold, silver and other tradeable commodities as money, while the government most emphatically tries to reserve the term money only for its specie.

As soon as a government specie develops a value in excess of its fiat-money face value, whether because of collector interest or an increase in the value of its material content, the courts will side with the taxman and declare the highest possible value goes to him.

Also, as a practical matter, courts would allow you to force someone to accept an obsolete coin in payment at it's face tender value, although such a case has never been pursued, for obvious reasons, but they would never force someone to sell one to you for less than its market value.

But isn't it always the rule that all three branches of government work together when it comes to ensuring that the taxman can grab the highest amount possible from a transaction?

- Steve

(Tue May 05 1998 17:16 - ID#26793)
Hi Avalon, missed you for a bunch of time. The all time high was 30.54 ounces on 20 March 1998. Equates to a DJIA of 631.26 in pre 1934 dollars.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:24 - ID#201238)
comex data

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for May 5
Gold 658,493 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 89,868,982 - 288,672 troy ounces
Copper 104,689 - 1,207 short tons

(Tue May 05 1998 17:26 - ID#246224)
Ryter noted my serialization of posts dealing with panic as regards to Y2K, virtual wealth and paper money, etc. Why do I dwell on this? Because human nature will not wait until December 31st, 1999 to act. I post these things to prod a little bit, to get you all thinking a bit about the increasing likelihood that time is running out to prepare for panic overtaking the general populous in your various environs.

If you have to compete with a maddened crowd to prepare yourself and your family then you will be caught short and lacking ( along with everyone else in that crowd ) . I sincerely do not want that to happen to you. The 'systems' we use are all tuned to operate successfully in a stable, steady environment. They will break when to many people try to change their behavior ( putting sudden demands on supplies and services ) at one time. I'm not talking here about computer systems as much as production and distribution systems, goods and services.

The more people who prepare ( and even over prepare ) now the less the impact for all of us. That's why I suggest taking money out of banks now rather than this summer or fall. It will give the authorities a chance to restock as well as you to have what is yours out. It will keep you out of line when there are lines.

This thread seriously relates to gold and silver because, ultimately, they are the only money that will be left standing when this debacle is through. Yes, goods and food will be worth their weight in gold, but they will not function very well as money. Again we are thrown back to a time when institutions will need to be refounded on solid virtues. And those which are not so refounded will gradually fade away.

I have never advocated simply owning PMs as THE means of dealing with the onrush of this future calamity. But it will play a very significant part in the effort to rebuild what has fallen to ruin. Of course your enlightened self interest will help you see where your duty lies.

10# bag of wheat flour is about US$3.50

5# bag of sugar is about US$2.50

1# salt ( iodized ) is about US$1.25

1 gallon of food oil about US$7.50

Beans are about 5 to 10 cents per pound.

Brown rice about 35 cents per pound.

1 ounce of silver costs about US$8.00 or a bit less.

1 ounce of gold costs about US$315 or a bit more.

What I'm saying here is that preparing for the future is relatively cheap right now. The biggest huddle is internal and emotional. I know people who hear and understand but do not see or act. I urge you to overcome internal inertia and to act in your own self interest.

Gold and silver have a part in your preparations today. Buy it. Bury it. Remember it.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:29 - ID#372262)
HARDBALL tonight and tomrorrow night is going to Little Rock for one of them town meeting type thingies on BC. The hype is that some new info on BC is gonna' come out of this and that when it was taped a lot of the participants were fearful of retaliation for speaki ' out! The word is that sparks are gonna' fly just like on Jerry Springer. We'll see!

(Tue May 05 1998 17:30 - ID#246224)
Thanks for the reassurance. And I think you are dead on target regarding the flood of liquidity which is coming our way. Bail, baby, bail!

(Tue May 05 1998 17:32 - ID#57232)
Son of Ping or 'Ping II' -- Next phase of serial devaluations
sharefin: I agree that we are still in Ping II. I think this time it will be mainland China that really brings the markets down. Could be bigger than Ping I -- all depends on how badly a China implosion hits the creditors -- Japan, Hong Kong and Europe. I don't know if there is a connection between a SEAsia crisis and a dollar flood. I would think that any viable companies/individuals would be buying gold or dollars with ready cash if they knew their local currency was about to devalue. After the devaluation, dollar/gold sales would be more likely in the affected countries to maintain liquidity ( Carbon copy of Indonesia situation ) . AG probably will not need to send out the PPT to push gold down -- Hong Kong will probably do it for him.

We don't have to worry about China - they won't sell gold, and South Korea probably doesn't have any left. A key question is whether China will devalue in steps or all at once. If the China debt is as bad as that Brookings Institute fellow says it is, China's hand will probably be forced -- sooner or later.

The exact time scenario is the part that is unclear -- predicting the dates of major downturns is fraught with major risk of error, as our friend S. Peutz has found out. But -- the world equity markets are ripe for a big one -- sometime very soon.

After this next wave of devaluations, the US markets are again likely to rise ( flight to safety ) , unless BC loses control. AG will not dare raise interest rates if Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea are still in trouble, IMHO. I think the US markets will be the last to fall, repeating the 1929 era scenario.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:37 - ID#57232)
Dollar flood?
All: Perhaps the dollar flood is coming from Europe, not SEAsia -- the launching of the EURO. Makes sense to get rid of unneeded reserves, doesn't it? Dollars before gold.

Aragorn III
(Tue May 05 1998 17:37 - ID#212323)
Many years ago I became aware of my existence, helpless and ignorant in a vast, mostly dark universe. I always consider as fortunate that there continues to be air to breathe and sunshine to warm my face. Having survived the transition from the crib to independence, the nature of my reliance on my fellow man has changed in fashion. The greatest gifts are that of friendship and illumination.

One person cannot *make* another comprehend what is within sight, let alone that which lies in the darkness beyond. You have held the candle in proper places and hoped for the best. I thank you for the light. I stood beside your candle and explored the mysteries beyond its flickering glow. Your efforts can not possibly be repaid in equal measure. Remain among our fellowship and attend our inevitable, eventual gathering.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:40 - ID#26793)
Kuwait stocks down 20% for 1998. Parliment holds secret session on ways to prop.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:44 - ID#26793)
@Aragorn III
Ditto me on the SDRer comments except for the gathering at the end part. I'm working on skipping that. ( grin thing )

Aragorn III
(Tue May 05 1998 17:44 - ID#212323)
Allen(USA)...Compassion appreciated!
Regarding your Y2K warnings... I will indeed ensure that my family, friends and I are prepared.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:49 - ID#57232)
Gold predictions
farfel: I think you are right that gold will go up -- eventually ( soon ) . But there is yet another devaluation Tsunami looming in SEAsia. I think it will be worthwhile for you to include such things in your analysis, because gold will probably go down before it goes up.

I make one 100% guaranteed iron-clad prediction about gold: It will go up in value -- in the next country to devalue. I cannot lose in predicting that.

When the US is the only country left after the serial devaluations have ended elsewhere, then there will be little to keep gold from going up in US dollars.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 17:49 - ID#384350)
You guys can't honestly expect the govt to allow you to buy something with fiat and sell it for gold and then claim a capital loss or no income on the sale?

Or maybe you do honestly expect it, and that it is the dishonest inflating and stealing by banks and govts that create this possibility. Yes I see, it would be like an inherent check to the insidious theft by inflation.

(Tue May 05 1998 17:50 - ID#43460)
The awesome power of Yahoo! Indexes, some of which I never knew existed!

(Tue May 05 1998 17:52 - ID#26793)
India charges China has hostile intent building airbases within striking distance.

(Tue May 05 1998 18:02 - ID#26793)
Norilsk denies ore is close to depletion.

Aragorn III
(Tue May 05 1998 18:02 - ID#212323)
Yeah, some of the factions on this forum leave me a bit unsettled. A dropped hors d'oeuvre could easily escalate to a full blown food fight with guns and whatnot...

Better to raise drinks with a select few at Tol's place, eh, T#1?

(Tue May 05 1998 18:03 - ID#287193)
@gagnrad...Yahoo indexes...
Thanks! You find everything .
from an old admirer.

Aragorn III
(Tue May 05 1998 18:05 - ID#212323)
In fact, I'm off to raise a glass of gold myself...
And drain it down...

(Tue May 05 1998 18:09 - ID#26793)
Mark and yen end day at peak (coupled with Fed draining? Hmmmmm.)

(Tue May 05 1998 18:21 - ID#26793)
ANOTHER cryptic U.S. Treasury statement. Something seems to be up.

(Tue May 05 1998 18:24 - ID#287193)
@Steve in To
I was hit several times last week. I am using the MCAFEE Crash Monitor. It has worked for me in the past.
Thanks for the warning! ......not sure if that program will protect against the new evil.

Flash Gordon__A
(Tue May 05 1998 18:26 - ID#327282)
Evening lads
I've downloaded the ICQ software. Could anyone tell my how to access the chat on this forum please?

(Tue May 05 1998 18:30 - ID#26793)
@Flash Gordon
Do a search for my ID# 11928983. We can try it out.

Flash Gordon__A
(Tue May 05 1998 18:39 - ID#327282)
Trying my best with little success!
A step-by-step guide would be nice.
Anyone for gold puts?

(Tue May 05 1998 18:44 - ID#224151)
Donald...Yes,something seems to be up!
Closed door White House meeting betweenThe Pres. the Treas.Secty and the Fed Reserve
Chairman to discusshow to keep the economy Going! I thought they said it was doing
fine.Or was it to discuss how to keep the economy from tanking?. And dont those
Bankers who hit Washinngton today seem kind of anxious to get those laws changed so
they can merge. ( A lesson for Microsoft here in its current quarrel with Guvmint...get
the law changed...then you are not breaking it ) . Somethings going on here! Buy Gold!.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:10 - ID#290118)
Gold is Property not Money??!!
Champion of tax on Tue May 05 1998 15:35 wrote:
"Basically, Smith sold timber off his land only in exchange for Eagles which he valued at face of $50. The Tax Court agreed with the IRS that Eagles are "property" not "money" and thus must be valued at market"
So you trade me gold for my merchandise...
as long as we stay with "market values"
then I gained no income - until the gold goes up
or maybe I have a loss - when gold goes down.
Hey guys - have we found a loophole or what!!??

(Tue May 05 1998 19:18 - ID#238295)
Gold Stocks and Gold Bullion
Despite a modest late rally gold bullion continues to act poorly. It has been weal despiter a soft dollar -- not a good sign. But gold stocks continue to act very well. They have held up much better than I had expected considering bullion's current price.

Will bullion lead gold stocks down or will gold stocks lead bullion back up? My take is that the stocks probably will lead bullion back up after modest additional weakness in both. Gold stocks USUALLY lead and bullion USUALLY follows. But not always, of course.

If gold stocks were tanking and bullion was holding up, I would be very concerned. But the current action leaves me just mildly worried.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:20 - ID#190411)
One Oz. Silver
I just bought 1000 pc. .9999 Ag commemerative rounds @ 6.10 ea. delivered. What do you all think? Is this a good deal?

(Tue May 05 1998 19:23 - ID#257136)
A little levity, albeit sophmoric!
I'm Tired!!

Yes, I'm tired. For several years, I've been blaming it on middle-age, iron poor blood, lack of
vitamins, air pollution, water pollution, saccharin, obesity, dieting, under-arm odor, and a dozen
other maladies that make you wonder if life is really worth living.

But now I found out it isn't any of those things. I'm tired because I'm overworked.

The population of this country is 250 million. 104 million are retired. That leaves 146 million to do
the work.

There are 90 million in school. That leaves 66 million to do the work.

Of this total, there are 32 million employed by the government. That leaves 34 million to do the

5 million are in the armed forces. That leaves 29 million to do the work.

28,700,000 work the the state and city governments. That leaves 300,000 to do the work.

There are 248,000 in hospitals and mental wards. That leaves 52,000 to do the work.

Now there are 51,998 people in jails or prisons.

That leaves just 2 people to do the work.....YOU AND ME.

And you're sitting there reading this!

No wonder I'm tired!!

Copied from a forum in Arkansas!
Who says we have no sense ( of humor ) we sent ya the epitome of inanity didn't we?

(Tue May 05 1998 19:23 - ID#39971)
Liberty - John D.-Carl-A.Goose-JTF-All
Mr.Liberated Gold Bug:To Answer your THOUGHTfull questions FWISA:

1:A mystery?

A:Only to those unable or unwilling to follow the message.

2:Mistake or intentional?

A:We all make mistakes,SOME are intentional.

3:A move above 360 in days?

A:" A " is repeating what has been discussed here and other places.The

information WE were looking for may have been delayed due to matters of

greater importance.The timetable is in the public domain.Seek and ye

shall find.It may be more correct to express it in DAYS than months.

The degree of rise is unpredicable.I was considering 3-2-5.We shall see.

Mr.J.D.:You express gold values as they may have been relative to a

stronger USD.Is this not the point?Gold is afterall expressed in USD,

and the lenghty analysis here and elsewhere address these variables.Yes?

Mr.Carl:Many of those with an interest in gold stocks are well aware of

the current situation.Those who wish to hold gold down ( for now ) are not

likely to play in the gold stocks sand box for fear of exposure,thus the

divergencies we see between the XAU et al and the spot gold prices.The

gold market ( OTC ) is unverifiable,which allows any one entity with enough

influence to change the percieved price of gold.You dig?

Mr.A Goose:Follow the money indeedy.Very well explained.

Mr.JTF:Enjoy your most observant posts.Well,they are similar in THOUGHT

to my own.A little affermation I am not alone totally nuts?Hmmmmmmmm

ALL:This unusual meeting today may finally address what has been stated

here and elsewhere time and time again.The USG should buy some Mounties

from Bart to help support this site,as it is clearly influencing their


I will return when more is revealed for all to see.

Thank You.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:25 - ID#342315)
Squirrel re property & money
Your post was extremely interesting. Have you got a reference? If I were to take some upfront on a deal in gold bars, how would this be considered? Many thanx, Charlie

(Tue May 05 1998 19:27 - ID#347457)
@Farfel on GOLD Market evaluation on 15:16
Farfel, what have you've been smoking?!? Your comment on


Today's gold action proved to be lacklustre with gold ending

essentially flat. While DOW/NASDAQ stocks moved into a downward

spiral in the last hour of trading, the XAU moved higher on relatively

light volumes at the end of the day, thereby reconfirming the negative

beta ( contrarian trend ) of gold stocks to general industrial



is totally off the mark.

Yes, NASDAQ moved lower in the last hour, however, all other markets moved up by looking at daily activity SIGNIFACTLY SO. You better stay on the mark if you are to provide the market evaluation. Take it from somebody who is 60% of his net worth in a gold market!

Steve in TO__A
(Tue May 05 1998 19:31 - ID#209265)
Servhard - don't get overworried
Ping 'O Death is mostly a risk for people who have direct internet connections. It doesn't work through many ISP connections, although it is possible to send a Death Ping through an ISP with a floating i.p. no..

Here's the techie stuff for those who want to know: P.'O.D.'s are ping packets that are illegal because they're larger than 64kb. Before someone figured out a way to send these things, operating systems never checked the size of the incoming packet, they just had a 64k page and used it as a buffer. When you sent them a packet larger than 64 kb they would happily write the whole thing into the buffer, but it would overflow into illegal parts of memory, usually crashing your computer.

I'm sure all firewalls stop DeathPings, now, and if your operating system has been released withing the last year or so, it will have the fix for the Ping 'O Death incorporated anyway. You used to be able to get info. on the Microsoft site about fixing susceptibility to P. 'O. D. if you run windows. I'm afraid I don't know whether Apple has fixed the problem on the Mac or not. With Linux you just download the latest upgrade of the os and reinstall.

As far as WinNuke goes, it probably won't be much of a problem because it can only be used when you're chatting. The Kitco people are all pretty nice, and surely nobody would send a OOB to anyone else . . . Would they?

Surely even Mr. Disney & Retired Soldier wouldn't WinNuke each other . . . Would they?

Anyhow, do some searches on winnuke and you'll come up with info on how to protect yourself, although, if you're running Windows95 and someone uses WinNuke4 on you you probably won't have much of a chance. If it's a serious hacker who is spoofing an i.p. no., possibly even yours, then you would have a hard time tracking him down.

- Steve

(Tue May 05 1998 19:32 - ID#223391)
@Flash Gordon
Please enter your ICQ number on Kitco, and I'll try to contact you. It may be easier than trying to figure out how to find someone. Then I'll walk you through the rest of it. Or anyone else, for that matter.

I want to see how many people we can get into the Kitco Bar & Grill at once - at least one go.

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 19:34 - ID#340425)
No, squirrel, I'm saying the opposite. If you receive gold for merchandise, then you have income equal to the market value of the gold over your cost in the merchandise. Some here have thought that eagles could be valued at face of $50 and thus recognized a loss on the merchandise.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:36 - ID#215208)
Foul weather warning!!
If you remember the movie Twister, I just noticed a Class V pennant in silver, with a magnitude of over $2.00 that started forming way back in January. It is estimated to touch down anytime within the next two weeks, most likely this week, and is guaranteed to blow out all stops within 5 city blocks. The direction, however, is unpredictable. Batten down the hatches.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:40 - ID#288295)

It's a good deal for you, but not for your UPS delivery man! 1000 Oz of silver, you can't put in your pocket! ( :^ ) ) The rounds aren't as liquid as some other silver coins, but probably more liquid than bars. Anyway, I think $6.10 is a fair price - did your source give you an idea of his buying price? ( just to get a feel of the spread )

(Tue May 05 1998 19:45 - ID#223391)
@Clinton loses one
Executive privilege refused by the judge. CNN's story could have been penned by the First Lady herself, so took this one instead.

(Tue May 05 1998 19:55 - ID#190411)
No, I didn't think to ask. I figured that it was below spot at the moment, ( according to my less than reliable info. ) , and, it is a delivered price. The dealer is in California, and, I am in Wisconsin. So, I think that this very reputable dealer, just gave me a good deal.
I plan on using these as "Bonus Tokens" for my employees "Job-Well-Done" bonuses. ( Several at a time )

(Tue May 05 1998 19:55 - ID#255190)
You did good. Such a price and for 4 nines fine as well. Silver Eagles are running spot + 1.25 in quantity. Nice bag, dude. Can ya spare the name and number?

(Tue May 05 1998 19:58 - ID#26793)
Placer Dome news

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 20:01 - ID#384350)
US Trade Deficit
The impact of the trade deficit may be even worse than many realise as cheap imports are reported in Devalued Currencies.

Currencies Devalued means that the actual unit volume of imported goods is much higher than meets the eye.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:01 - ID#69149)
Re: Defunct Constitution...
When I had jury duty the other day, I was reminded of the article I read on the net awhile back dealing with how, supposedly, the Constitution has been rendered useless by certain laws and Presidential activities in the 1930's basically putting us in an indeterminate state of national emergency. We have, so the article says, a legal status for the purposes of the U.S. Government of "Enemies of the State" [we and the USG have an antagonistic relationship] and therefore as with enemy aliens ( spies, etc. ) we lose all Constitutional protections and rights. The article sited specific portions of law which I can dig up from the copy I printed out. Anyway, one of the interesting items mentioned was the fact that in all courtrooms you will find that the Stars and Stripes has a golden fringe on it which denotes a court in Admiralty-basically a martial court where the Constitution does not apply. While sitting in the back of the District Court waiting to be empaneled, my eyes became riveted on the flag. Sure enough-a golden fringe! It gave me pause. It seems so far-fetched that we could have been a fake Constitutional Republic all these years, but the evidence is mounting that this is, in fact, the case and when the next big crisis comes with the attendant triggering of all those dormant Executive Orders all pretense will be dropped and hindsight will again prove to be 20-20.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:01 - ID#190411)
Ron Paul c. 1-800-982-7070 closed 16:30 pacific. If this referral is not allowed on this forum, I will not ever do it again.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:02 - ID#288295)
1929 vs. 1998?
Might be a good time to add to those way-out-of-the-money put options....

(Tue May 05 1998 20:03 - ID#26793)
Dollar, yen, mark analysis

(Tue May 05 1998 20:06 - ID#26793)
Is that Congressman Ron Paul of Texas? I know he is pro-gold but did not know he was in the business.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:12 - ID#26793)
Nikkei down 280 ( 1.8% )

(Tue May 05 1998 20:13 - ID#426220)

Nikkei down already almost 300 points - Unless the BOJ makes massive purchases of securities tonight, the Nikkei will blast down through 15000 - then it's Dante' Fifth Ring of Hell for the Nippons.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue May 05 1998 20:17 - ID#384350)
@jed, Klinton and Nat'l Emergency
Klintun should be tried for treason for signing a national emergency act, if that's what the batard did.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:19 - ID#284379)
Puts in what? Silver, gold or what? The parallel makes a lot of sense.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:23 - ID#317193)
Patience, my son, patience!
The end is near, gold will tank, silver is sliding and anything that could go wrong has already! So, whats your problem? Lighten up folks!

Try some patience, review your fundamentals and stay true to your beliefs. It is darkest before the dawn.


Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 20:24 - ID#287378)
@ Bart
Am I the only one getting "out of control" margins, making the comments difficult to read? Please help. Thanks!

(Tue May 05 1998 20:28 - ID#223391)
@Crystal ball
I always wished I had one of them, crystal ball. Well, please post your operating system and browser. Haven't had a problem in months, but keep seeing others posting this complaint.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:28 - ID#28994)
New World Order
Over the last few years, we have heard much about the New World Order, and lately, quite often on this Forum. However, I have been unable to find a definite explanation as to what it is and what its political makeup is. I have heard the following opinions:

1 ) One central government for all the Americas, Europe, the Far East etc.

2 ) A central body of laws and regulations followed worldwide by each individual country.

3 ) A central government to run and rule the whole world such as the United Nations.

Explanations and opinions would be appreciated.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:34 - ID#190411)
Yes, one and the same. He is the best friend of hard money in the government. His business is run by Burt Blumert, publisher of the Rothbard Rockwell Report. ( Murray, and Llewellen respectively. )
Mike Sheller briefly mentioned Murray Rothbard a couple of weeks ago, when Mike was running for President. That got him my vote. I read RRR cover to cover as soon as it appears, though I sure miss Murray Rothbard.
May he R.I.P.
I encourage any Paleo-liberartarian types here to check out RRR. 1-800-982-7070. - No flako left-libertarians here.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:36 - ID#288295)
If you believe this scenario, it would make sense to buy puts in what you think is most overbought. ( which is most everything, but you can't buy options in all stocks or indexes ) You can buy LEAP ( long-term ) puts on the SP500 or SP100 or on some individual stocks, or shorter-term puts on stocks and various indices. None of this is investment advise - use your own judgement. I must say that I've been too bearish and early buying LEAP puts in the past, and have watched them expire worthless. But they are good cheap insurance in case of a meltdown. Right now I hold only a few contracts of the SP500 ( SPX ) LEAP puts.

(Tue May 05 1998 20:43 - ID#390249)
ECB Gold sales 'not on the Agenda'
per Belgium CB Governor. The EU countries will continue to lend but they can't sell per the attached story

(Tue May 05 1998 20:46 - ID#233199)
Out of control margins (Bart : please take note.)

Weird margins seem to be caused by extra long URLs

They usually seem to come from URL gathered in searches ( by search engines )

Perhaps they could be split up by the poster. That would mean one lf of the URL would not be underlined and would have to be reassembled to be of use.

ALternately ( I think ) The site can be bookmarked differently . I think if you mark the site directly and not just repost the search terms it will no longer be a problem. People just have to know what a problem it causes,

In the mean time, if you copy the whole section into your word processor you can see it better, with the one drawback that the colours are missing ( and oh yeah the posted links are no longer "live" . )

Oh Well....

(Tue May 05 1998 20:50 - ID#293379)
setting sun...

NIKKEI 225 INDEX ( IND:^N225 ) -
8:51PM  15307.69
Change -293.41 ( -1.88% )
Prev Cls 15601.10

(Tue May 05 1998 20:52 - ID#288100)
By the look of todays chart they are nailing it to about 15,300. The
keep it in + or - 20 of 15,300 team. BOJ protection of the stock market at any cost?

(Tue May 05 1998 20:59 - ID#347235)
Steve a TO-A
I have no intention of nuking anyone unless I feel threatened. Then its claymores at 30 yards, shotguns closer in.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:00 - ID#233199)
PS: Once ya got bad margins ya gotta toss your "cookies"

(Tue May 05 1998 21:01 - ID#190411)
I don't know how I have gotten on the mailing lists of every doom-master in the newsletter business. I read the pitches occaisionally, and it causes mental anguish ( lawyer's term ) .
One of them, I don't recall which, gave me the answer to all my anxieties; Buy LEAPS.
I am the proud posesser of a S+P 500 Dec 98 put @1000 . This gives me more anxiety than the damned newsletters.
After hanging around at this Kitco confluence of experience, I just think that I will absorb some more of the free knowledge offered here, and stay away from these derivatives. in ignorance ERLE

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 21:01 - ID#287375)
@ Prometheus
Thanks Mr. P.! AOL knocked me off again ( for the umpteenth time this hour ) and when I signed back on, the margins were OK. Win 95/Netscape 4.0

(Tue May 05 1998 21:02 - ID#233199)
Sorry, I take that back about "cookies"

This section is ok even with the old "cookies" as long as I don't load teh previous sections.

Sorry for the computer stuff, but that's the way it is sometimes.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:03 - ID#26793)
Asia Tonight
Japan, Indonesia and South Korea each down about 2%

(Tue May 05 1998 21:09 - ID#43460)
Servehard re Yahoo indexes
tnx. Here's one I didn't put on the list. J'berg Platinum index.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:09 - ID#45173)
@Donald -- On Treasury Dept. statement today
Auten said. ``...another part can probably be attributed to foreign competition and global disinflation, which may even intensify as Asian adjustments proceed.''

"Global disinflation?" That can't be a euphemism for deflation, can it?

Geez. Imagine my surprise.

Thx for the post.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 21:09 - ID#287375)
Nikkei troubles
Nikkei 225 ^N225 9:07PM 15265.19 ( down over 330 )
I don't think this is good for either gold or platinum.
Spoos down about 240. $PREM is under "fair value". $VIX picked up a little today. Could Greenie and friends have a surprise for us?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:09 - ID#26793)
Treasury markets nervous over possible change in Fed monetary policy

(Tue May 05 1998 21:13 - ID#288295)
Consider your LEAP put as insurance....If it pays off, it will pay off handsomely...... BTW ( I don't own these, but ) for you Y2K debacle proponents, one of the best LEAP put suggestions I've seen is the Jan 2000 LEAP put on Best Buy Stores. Y2K ought to turn their biz into a nightmare..... ( ;^ ) )

(Tue May 05 1998 21:13 - ID#290118)
Gold vs Gov't
Champion of Tax: In our hypothetical exchange - you are correct in that the excess of the gold value over what you bought is taxable profit. But the gold value equal to what you "bought" stays in my inventory as gold but if I took it as cash - the whole amount is profit ( unless I immediately use that cash to buy more inventory - such as silver ) . Am I missing something? I get taxed on the cash I accumulate - I do not get taxed on the gold I accumulate ( unless it goes up in value ) .

I still think this inventory idea is a loophole to let me stash a liquid asset that I can really sit on or sleep with - GOLD - even better than in an IRA as Eagles and stored elsewhere.

Skinny; On New World Order - go back to Cage Rattler's post on Mon May 04 1998 13:42 and the posts thereafter. Buy the Book. I've ordered mine. I can e-mail you sites for more info - or just do a yahoo search on the topic.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:14 - ID#26793)
Democrats rolling over on IMF bailout

(Tue May 05 1998 21:16 - ID#43460)
Erle, what did they commemorate? The history of broccholi?
I recall that some years ago there were several US commemorative medallions that didn't sell well, particularly the ones featuring Black celebraties. But then their market value has been rising through the years as their subjects have become popular and the Black middle class becomes more wealthy.

You'd be surprised what sort of things go up in value. I've got a mint bag of pennies sitting in the basement which theoretically has doubled in value, all because it may have some double die pennies according to the date it was sealed. IMHO

(Tue May 05 1998 21:17 - ID#190411)
With all of the Y2K doomsters prognostications, one would think that grain calls this fall would be a safe killing. Have you seen any evidence of buying going on that would give credence to the sure disasters that will befall us city-dwellers?
It surely would be nice if the last train of 1999 would stop and fill our silos.
What's your take on these out of money calls on gold tonight?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:21 - ID#344239)
Skinny 20:28 post
Here is a site for you on the New World Order

(Tue May 05 1998 21:21 - ID#45173)
@ERLE Your S&P at 1000 Dec. put is, er, bold
but we got a lot of road to cover between now and then. You never know. You might wind up looking like a genius. Now, of course, you look paranoid. As they say in my biz, only the paranoid survive. Still, I'd be sleep in fits, too if I was holding that. I got my own worries...

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 21:22 - ID#287375)
Somethin's up, cats and kittens
Japan Nikkei 225 ^N225 9:24PM 15196.86 -404.24

(Tue May 05 1998 21:22 - ID#227238)
Jed: It's nice that the Belgians say that no more gold may be sold. On the other hand their charter also forebade a split term for head of the CB. They seemed to find a way around the "difficulty".

In terms of gold leased; what would happen if they should lease to someone and "wink, wink" could not get it returned? ...... "Vee alvays haf vays to solve these things". ......... Bankers lie.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 21:24 - ID#287375)
Boo hoo, Spoo
S&P 500 JUN98 1116.30 -360

(Tue May 05 1998 21:25 - ID#218216)
Nikkei prices
Does anyone know a site for the current Nikkei avg.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:25 - ID#190411)
@gagnrad, formerly known as 223
broccoli. These are privately minted coins, designed to reduce the vast undersupply of silver on the world markets.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:27 - ID#227238)
My browser won't browse or take nourishment.
Help. Newest version of Netscape suddenly stopped accessing the net. Won't even open the ISP's home page. Says it's looking for the address and remains in that mode. Logs on fine and is apparently healthy, from outward appearances. ..... This post is being done on another machine with old version. .... Reloaded software no help. Any quick solutions?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:30 - ID#344239)
Japan Mkt
Is this last trading day this week for Japan.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:30 - ID#348286)
@Japan Down 404
vronsky, are we going to break 15000 tonight. This is a disaster ready to
happen all over again in Asia.
Canadian dollar collapsing with little help from the BOC.
The only thing that seems to be going straight up is the US stock market.
How much longer? Forever? Hmmmmmmmm

(Tue May 05 1998 21:31 - ID#348286)

(Tue May 05 1998 21:31 - ID#174103)

for nikkei site

(Tue May 05 1998 21:33 - ID#227238)
gagnrad: ( I think I liked 223 better ) Have you had the opportunity to peruse the annual report from SWC? It would appear to my nonaccountants eye, that if they pull off the expansion to 1.3 million oz's it may be helluva deal .... provided equity is not diluted too much in the process. Of course the other element to beware of is that RJ says palladium is headed for the dumper and SWC's reserves are weighted 3:1 in PA.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:36 - ID#43460)
ERLE from the investor formerly known as 223
Generics? I once got some of those and mixed in with them were some really beautiful ones, obviously leftovers from several different editions, not worth much more, but great presents for various nieces and nephews. Here's hoping they throw in some really neat ones for you. :^ )

Broccoli! What do you do with all your leftover h's? I suppose you could give them to needy Brits?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:36 - ID#174103)
slippage! if yahoo fails, try

(Tue May 05 1998 21:36 - ID#218216)
Thanks moregold pdeep
Thank you for the url.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:37 - ID#348286)
LOW: 6.10 HIGH: 6.77 , some specs lose big money........

(Tue May 05 1998 21:38 - ID#413109)
Maybe sooner?
Recently said, based on my work and stochastics, Silver especially
and gold too should find a bottom by the 3rd week of this month.
from looking @---------
and the gold chart as well, the turn may come sooner, possibly the end
of this week or the beginning of next. Take a look and see how you int-
erpret the charts. They also show pressure on the bottom of the Bolinger
band. Also predicted that the Markets- most, would have a correction and
I believe this has started. It could be a sharp one, and a bounce back
to test the highs or go to new highs.
The rythmic patterns are in place, some even exceeded the usual patterns.
HUI and XAU may have a little more work to do. We may see the metals
leading the stocks from these levels, and not the other way around as
has been the case. Only a guess, of course.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:40 - ID#413109)
MoreGold---- Try this one for getting closing prices for silver and
other commods----
Silver june had a range of 608 to 633, not 677.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:42 - ID#28994)
Thanks for the comeback... Will check it out.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:42 - ID#290118)
Millenium Melt Down
Poo Poo to you who boo at the deep doo doo when the fourth digit becomes two. Take a cue so you don't rue come the cry and hue.
It only takes some family in suburbia somewhere to hit the panic button after being overdosed with media stories on Y2K, etc. What could kick them over the edge? Anything - it is psychology buddy boy. Who knows? Remember the toilet paper shortage back east. It wasn't real but somebody somewhere became convinced, then the media picked it up. Within days you couldn't find a roll of wipe to save your a**.
If this hypothetical family shopper starts clearing shelves and filling up the shopping cart - somebody will notice. They will start doing it too. Within 48 hours it will go coast to coast and back again. What started it? Lightning somewhere knocked out the power right after a Y2K newscast. Or maybe somebody awoke from a nightmare like Nick had.
Date: Sun May 03 1998 08:08
Nick@C ( I HAD A DREAM!! ) ID#393224:
Copyright  1998 Nick@C/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Woke up. Went to the toilet. Flushed. It didn't refill. Water's down, thinks I. Went downstairs. Put on the jug for a cup of java. Nothing. Electricity is down, thinks I. Crank up the generator--lived in a developing nation for 9 years--no electricity half the time. Hooked up the computer and TV--gotta get my Kitco fix and CNBC. Nothing. Hmmmmmmmmm. Something's going on here. Plug the radio into the generator. Nothing. Hmmmmmmmmm. Pick up the phone to call my neighbour. Nothing. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Get into my new car. Turn the key. Nothing. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Get into my old van. Turn the key. About bloody time something worked!!! Drive into town. Mob outside the bank. Drive to the supermarket. Mob breaking in and looting. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Go back home. Check the supplies of water, food, fuel, cash, protection, 'you-know-what'. Lock the doors. Look at the calendar ( 01-01-2000 ) . Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.Go back to bed. Must have been a nightmare!!
A feller here figures he and his buddies with the rifles and pickups will raid the local grocery store and high tail it for the hills. He better be firstest with the mostest. That parking lot will be deep red in ugly!
Some lady who found out about my recent shopping habits said to me - "Now I know where to come." Sorry but the admission fee is one ton of food, fuel, medicines and ammo. I don't care who you are or how much gold you have. If you have gold or silver TOO then your even more welcome!

(Tue May 05 1998 21:43 - ID#413109)
Try Yahoo Int'l or this one I like----

(Tue May 05 1998 21:44 - ID#348286)

Bill Buckler
(Tue May 05 1998 21:44 - ID#256381)
Bad day in Asia and White House Meeting
As of this posting, the Japanese market is down 2.43% and the Aussie market down 1.14% ( about 32 points ) .


So Clinton, Greenspan, Rubin, Summers all got together for a little chat at the White House. Don't forget, it was a "leak" from the Fed early last week which brought about the big Dow fall and the big bond yield rise. Then, it was the Clinton Press Conference on Thursday which boosted the stock and bond market - and knocked $8 off the gold price by the end of the week.

Now the Fed is not "supposed" to leak, and Presidents are not "supposed" to talk up the stock market. Yet both did, and now Mr Clinton has "invited" Mr Greenspan to the White House for a friendly chat with Rubin and Summers along for the ride.

Next week, Mr Clinton is off to Germany for another friendly chat, with Chancellor Kohl. After that, there is the Heads of State G-8 summit in Birmingham, England. And after that, on May 19, the FOMC meets.

Finally, IMF head Mr Camdessus, who is presently on a friendly ( ? ) visit to Australia ( where the currency is plummeting ) , has stated that the U.S. would be well advised to lift rates "sooner rather than later". If the plot gets much thicker than this, we'll be able to walk on it.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:44 - ID#43460)
Earl re SWC
I'm not buying nor selling right now. Not being a speculator I normally try to hold onto winning stocks until I can declare long term capital gains. So was prepared when I bought it to ride it up and down for a while. I did read the annual report. I don't recall off the top of my head reading anything about whether they'd try for a more advantageous hedge position this spring, which I hope they did. You know they were tied up in a cheaper hedge last year. IMHO

(Tue May 05 1998 21:45 - ID#28994)
Thanks for the comeback... Will check it out.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:46 - ID#317193)
Buy K-Tel and tulips...sell all PM's
I am selling ALL PM investments and going long K-Tel and tulips!! Heavy on the tulips. I will be rich immediately. No chance of any loss. It is a sure thing.

No knowledge of investments required. Just send money to my broker. What could be easier. America is one great place, right?

Fools with your gold and silver-they are dead and no store of value. Soros and Buffett are insane!!

Repent and divest yourself of your arcane and ancient beliefs. Buy the paper and hold. Fire is hold is a saying only heard at sea.

Tom P.S. Bought more CEF today.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:47 - ID#210235)
Hate to ask the obvious, but have you plugged a phone into the line
your modem is using? It's usually something like that. Bad cable. Phone line out. Loose jack. 9 times out of 10.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:48 - ID#335190)
Madness @ Popes' Place (Conspiracy ? how could that be, Eh!)
Secretive Vatican gives ammunition to conspiracy theorists

It said the 23-year-old NCO, angered over his lack of recognition, shot
the commander and his wife and then turned the gun on himself.

1978 death of Pope John Paul I after only 33 days in the papacy. There were suggestions  staunchly denied by the Vatican  that his death during the night may not have been from natural causes. The motive offered by conspiracy theorists was that John Paul I may have been about to blow the whistle on Italy's largest postwar banking scandal, in which the Vatican bank was later found to have been involved.

There were reports the kidnapping was carried out to pressure Italy into
releasing Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who shot Pope John Paul II in 1981.
The girl has never been found.

He did not, however, answer several questions:
 How did the assailant get into the commander's apartment?
 Where were the commander and his wife before the shooting?
 How did a man described as having "very peculiar psychological
characteristics" be allowed to stay in the Swiss Guards?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:49 - ID#210235)
Also looking to increase PM position. Just hoping for a couple of dollars more in the dip. None of my friends has to sell it to me!

(Tue May 05 1998 21:49 - ID#218216)
Me thinks asia willbe just the excuse they will use to to justify why the US market will start tanki
ng right now. I haven't seen sentiment this bullish since 1987. It never ceases to amaze me how after the crash in 87 everyone became a contrarian. After it has another sharp decline we will most likely see a lot of hindsight that the signs were all there. THEY ARE ALL THERE NOW. Asia would make it a convienent excuse. Look out below.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:50 - ID#290118)
Netscape lost
My Netscape does the same. I'm logging on and off as I browse, read my booty, and compose posts. After several circuits on this loop Netscape can find the URL. Horsefeathers! It is the same button I've been using. It won't get my ISPs home page. It can't find my mail. I disconnect and reconnect. No go. I quit everything and boot the apps back up. Same. I restart the computer. Joy, joy - it works - for a while. What are you running Netscape on? I'm running Communicator 4.0.5 on a PowerMac under OS8.1. I've posted this on Netscape's tech trouble shoot group - no good answers yet. ( I had it under 4.0.3 and thought the upgrade would fix it ) .

(Tue May 05 1998 21:51 - ID#153102)
Regarding your court experience, the flag with gold fringe is the flag of the Executive and has nothing to do with Admiralty law or jurisdiction. There is a lot of misinformation about on this topic, but there is no criminal jurisdiction in American Admiralty. There was in an English Court of Vice-Admiralty which is the court the King set up here against the common-law jury courts. The English Court of Vice-Admiralty was a martial law court. A federal district court can be in civil or martial venue and jurisdiction, depending. It is all done sub silentio and unless you know enough law you won't know what's going on. You must read Luther v Borden, and ex parte Milligan to understand the meaning of the term in American constitutional law.

No court has ever admitted any legal significance to the display of the Executive Flag in the courtroom. But, there is political significance which you can read about in the Attorney General's Opinion #34.

Go to a state courtroom. You will find the same Executive Flag displayed on a staff there. Why is a federal flag flying in a state office ? The answer is the state is occupied.

A flag is in a martial display when it is flown from a staff and thus suitable to be carried by marching troops.
A flag is in a Banner or peace display when it is hung with the stripes vertical. Find an old picture of the US House of Representative interior of the area behind the Speaker. You will see the flag hung as a banner. Now it is displayed there on a staff. The Star Spangled Banner is not the Star Spangled Flag on a staff. One is the emblem of a people of peace; the other is a military emblem.

There is significance in the finial on the staff on which the flag flies. The ball finial which you will see atop every flagpole at every public school indicates the site is a recruiting station. The eagle with spread wings finial is martial.

They are showing and telling everything, but ignorance makes an eye blind to significance.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:51 - ID#210235)
All became contrarian after the 87 hit? Well, sounds like our weatherman yesterday. Calling for partly cloudy even when the big storm hit. Brought 1/2" of hail, like snow on the ground and three tornadoes.

TODAY, the weatherman is warning of tornadoes! Yeah, sure. Thanks, pal.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:52 - ID#267344)
'Gentlemen, start your engines'
Ladies too! If you have waited this long to act, now might be a very good time to reconsider. Go back and read Allen's 17:26 again. Allen, if I may take the liberty to revise one statement of yours slightly...
"preparing for the future is relatively cheap right now."
might have been more correctly stated...
"preparing for the future may never be this cheap again in your lifetime."
These are the times when prudence is rewarded to the extreme. I say this not only in reference to Y2k but to the general future of the world, even in the absence of Y2k. Boy Scouts Motto: BE PREPARED.
- c

(Tue May 05 1998 21:52 - ID#348286)
@Bill Buckler
It's the Freemason club in action.... oops im not supposed to talk about it.
The members in the triangle get the info, thats all I can say.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:52 - ID#290118)
Dad gum fingers can't do the walking!
Next time Netscape gets cantankerous I'll take notes.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:52 - ID#43460)
Reify great spreadsheet!
Thanks for the Bloomberg URL! That was one of the ones I lost when my bookmark file crashed. Do you think the silver upturn will just be short term or will it last a while?

(Tue May 05 1998 21:54 - ID#227238)
Prometheus: The log on is normal, with a final connect banner, so I haven't ...... but will.

(Tue May 05 1998 21:57 - ID#227238)
gagnrad: If not for their execrable hedge program they would have made a tidy profit this year, instead of the $5+ million loss.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:00 - ID#227238)
Squirrel: It's ver 4.0 or thereabouts. Running OK on Wintel since last fall. Now suddenly ....

(Tue May 05 1998 22:00 - ID#317193)
Buckler- I think you can walk on it now......
we just don't know it yet. Tom

(Tue May 05 1998 22:01 - ID#288140)
Allen (USA)@brown rice
Brown rice may be more nutritious than white rice but it doesn't have a small fraction of the storage life of white rice. We have discovered Basmati rice is delicious.

KB&G isn't doing much to help stay on topic or relieve the strain on bandwidth here I'm afraid, however it has been fun for those that like to chat. Gotta go some trying to enter KB&G I think.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:02 - ID#210235)
If it's long URL's that seem to trigger your problem, that's interesting. Long ones show up on my screen in two lines, and work fine. But if someone inserts an end-of-line return in the middle of one, they will probably fail. What browser and operating system are you on?

(Tue May 05 1998 22:06 - ID#413109)
Silver long term or short term
Date: Tue May 05 1998 21:52
gagnrad----------- My work is mostly long term and mostly very long,
but I like to take a shot at short term work too and have been reasonably
close to the mark lately.
First off I see a few more days of possibly sharp drop to below 600,
then a turn, my guess short term to test the highs above 700, then
more work, but longer term ( years ) it should be up. Expect lots of
bumps along the road.
I'm impressed with your ID ( 3's & 4's ) and their combinations, have
followed me around, my entire life. What does your handle stand for.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:07 - ID#288260)
down 470 !!!

Champion of Tax
(Tue May 05 1998 22:09 - ID#340425)
Sorry, squirrel, you lost me. I don't see how what you are describing is any different than taking cash and immediately buying gold.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:10 - ID#43460)
Earl, I was trying to be polite
Talking about SWC's hedge position is like discussing an unfortunate young neighbor who disappears for a few months then reappears pushing a stroller but with no husband. Mistakes were obviously made, but we hope she can better herself. IMHO

(Tue May 05 1998 22:13 - ID#224149)
Best post Today
OldGold -Your 19:18 post has finally made me laugh I like it ---Away for serious carrot juice with a touch of garlic.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:14 - ID#284255)
Dowcrash chart

If you have waited this long to act, now might be a very good time to reconsider. Go back and read Allen's 17:26 again.
Allen, if I may take the liberty to revise one statement of yours slightly...
"preparing for the future is relatively cheap right now."
might have been more correctly stated...
"preparing for the future may never be this cheap again in your lifetime."

Sound like you're talking about gold.
It fits the scenario well

I also believe what Allen is saying too.
I have had my head buried in Y2K articles this last week.
The latest reports have lifted
My 'probability of chaos' from a reading of 4 to 6 on a scale of 10
Beware and bewarned.

'It does'nt get better than this'.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:14 - ID#431263)
HANG SENG only points away from crashing through 10,000 while Nikkei down almost 500 pts on the way through 15,000. Tomoroow will NOT be a good day for European or US equities! If gold can't rally in the face of another Asian debacle we may have to endure yet another test of $280 gold. But if gold can hang tough above $300 while equities plunge, the great bull market in gold will have finally begun! IMHO, of course! This time,I believe, gold equities will follow gold not lead it!

(Tue May 05 1998 22:17 - ID#317193)
Brother oris,what see you tomorow-up or down? Options expire friday. Mind says up gut says down.Yuk Tom

(Tue May 05 1998 22:24 - ID#190411)
I might be able to steer you toward some cheapo PM.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:26 - ID#227238)
gagnrad: Management addressed the present hedge program in a polite fashion as well. I would like to reestablish a position ...... the key is palladium. Obviously.

They will make a ton of money if PA maintains its present valuation or even somewhere in this region. I used $288/oz for future projections. Even with a dilution of 50% and present cost ( Disney method ) the numbers were around $5 to $6 /share. ...... Projections subject to audit. : )

(Tue May 05 1998 22:26 - ID#41170)
There is another MASTERPIECE over @ vronsky central. A MUST read
remember to take out the space

After you read this you may want to find a May 5th copy of Forbes
and take a look at John Brimelow's chart on page 50-51. It is time
to be IN iffin you gona get in, don't worry about the day to day,
jest be happy, don't worry. YOU GONA GET RICH! BE ABLE TO BUY THE PLACE

Also looks like IT is hitting the FAN in Japan tonite. Close
the winder!

Tally Ho

(Tue May 05 1998 22:27 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Bill Buckler -- Probably something about saving their 'precious'; their debt-based reserve currency from infiltration of the Euro, which I'd feel fairly comfortable in saying that it will have a significant backing or reserve of gold behind it. At least 'till the Klintonistas get done with them.

You all be careful out there. Holding physical is one thing. I think there is a very fine chance that gold commodities will get 'slapped' about a bit!

(Tue May 05 1998 22:27 - ID#22650)
Kapex- Asia is not an excuse, it is a reason

(Tue May 05 1998 22:29 - ID#288260)
Lunchtime in Tokyo
Must be SOME interesting market conversations today. No doubt lots of mutual fund/market commercials on CNN but no mention of Japan. ( might hurt CNN's customers and they wouldn't buy commercials ) *If this is the start of something BIG don't trust the media their allegiance is not to truth. It is to satisfying their sponsors so they in turn will buy more commercials. There is no bias in the media other than making money at all costs.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:36 - ID#31868)
I would not insult you with payment for such a ridiculous task, your offer more than kind, I await, wearing a clown nose, if you arrive unarmed, we keep them ( the noses ) stapled to the door. The inside of the door, a jar, full of the finest cookies

Enter, we shall crack a keg of tequila...if we are not in, make yourself at home...we are out searching for Yossarian who has departed early.

Fortunately he uses a cube of lime Jell-O as a sea anchor and is easily retrieved.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:41 - ID#31868)
What a system of international payments, that it
relies on a handful of men, so much so that what all we are worth can go up and down like a cork in the ocean of their misguided thoughts.

Ha! Wake up, let the Sun drench your upheld hands, demand coined freedom!

Demand gold and that does not lie!!!

(Tue May 05 1998 22:45 - ID#43460)
Earl, I think the whole key here is that none of us know the future.

The conjecture remains that if one wants a North American PGM mining stock there ain't much selection.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:47 - ID#411163)
Sharefin and all-

(Tue May 05 1998 22:48 - ID#31868)
gagnrad - don't spend so much time thinking -
buy Franco-Nevada - you get it all no matter what happens.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:50 - ID#43460)
Earl, an afterthought
I'm not anything but a private investor, long term at that, and not a TA, so I'm not competent to read chart squiggles. But do you notice in the graph I just posted that SWC is at the TOP of its previous range? Is this going to go down again or is it going to break the cycle and go to 50? Now by the fundamentals you've just mentioned you may be right, but how many squiggle watchers are out there for each fundamentalist?

(Tue May 05 1998 22:52 - ID#31868)
gagnad - Chubby's checkers
were infinite...BUY FRANCO - NEVADA - you will sleep better...

(Tue May 05 1998 22:54 - ID#289419)
Asia... in trouble... check Indonesia...

(Tue May 05 1998 22:56 - ID#57232)
Ping II at it again!
All: Didn't expect to see red ink all over the Pacific tonight. Any idea what's up? It can't be the doubling of the price of gas in Indonesia, or the commotion in China about the banning of door-to-door salespeople.

My guess is a crisis in Japan of some kind -- perhaps our dollar reserves are going over there -- any news about our International 'plunge team' doing what they did a few months ago?

Whatever happens there will be red ink in the USA too. Don't expect gold bullion to stand up to this deflationary pressure. It looks like we will have another opportunity to buy bullion.

(Tue May 05 1998 22:56 - ID#335184)
If you are holding a STOCK portfolio of any kind, especially, Gold Stocks, an S&P 500 hedge here is an excellent move. A general decline in the S&P is a bigger threat to the XAU ET AL than the potential temporary drop in AU physical.
The May S&P action will be weak at best ( SELL IN MAY & WALK AWAY ) , but I'm looking for a major back draft to at least test the April lows.
There are too many time bombs ticking this month that could upset this market near its' all time highs & geared for Nirvana.
A true bull market would treat ALL news as good news, a la Joe Battataglia, but the next big shock will give it pause before the deamons take full possession & drive it over the cliff, probably by August or the traditional month of the Grim Reaper, October. ALL OF COURS, IMHOP !
I am in the pit with you & as they say , "We who may be about to die salute you !"
Hail Ceaser ! AND VIOS CON DIOS !


(Tue May 05 1998 22:57 - ID#43460)
Sorry, Bro, but I'm out of money right now for buying stocks. I'm due to sell some this summer so will look at it again.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:00 - ID#344308)

nikkei -471.....every picture ( s ) tells a story don't it...mod rod.

chaos and and grains...drought coming...106F today in
s texas...ALLABOARD.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:00 - ID#31868)
gagnrad - I was seeking to guide you away from the individual thoughts
and or puchase of SWC...everything in time...gulp to ya! Remember, the percentage in gain is equal no matter the amount of stock you purchase.


(Tue May 05 1998 23:02 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Well, I don't know how you all stand it but as far as I'm concerned, ICQ methodology SUKS! They wholly forgot the 'KISS' principle for sure!

(Tue May 05 1998 23:06 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Vatican Bank
A Book Review of IN GODS NAME by David Yallop

No longer in print.

Published by Bantam Books in hardback in 1984. Paperback edition in 1986.

Prepared by Richard M. Bowers on 11/13/95

On the afternoon of September 28, 1978 Albino Luciani, formerly Cardinal of Venice, elected Pope John Paul I on August 26, 1978 had a meeting with his Secretary of State, Cardinal Jean Villot, in the Vatican apartments.

Having had the opportunity of a months study of the many problems facing tthe papacy, having reviewed the dossiers of the leading members of the Curia, and having instigated a through investigation of the Vatican Bank and Vatican finance,

Pope John Paul I had decided on startling changes which would affect the doctrine, hierarchy and finance of the Roman Catholic church.

After discussing an number of appointments and transfers, the Pope told Villot he was preparing to tackle the difficult problem of the Vatican Bank

Luciana also made it crystal clear that all links with Michele Sindona and his bank, and Roberto Calvi and Banco Ambrosiano were to be cut in the near future.

The Church of Rome was to return to the poor church of its origins.

FWIW............Take Care

(Tue May 05 1998 23:08 - ID#288140)
Life2Dope has been locked out, I think.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:08 - ID#348286)
@JAPAN - Worried about Indonesia - And IDIOT CAMDESSUS is still feeding our money to the Black Hole
Tuesday May 5, 9:48 pm Eastern Time
Nikkei down in morning, partly on Indonesia worry

TOKYO, May 6 ( Reuters ) - Tokyo stocks extended losses on Wednesday morning, partly because of concern over social and political uncertainty in Indonesia, brokers said.

``Selling increased due to worries over political and social uncertainty in Indonesia,'' Okasan Securities chief strategist Tetsuya Ishijima said, adding that a drop in bank shares was contributing greatly to the overall price fall.

At 0135 GMT, the key 225-share Nikkei average was down 2.51 percent or 391.06 points at 15,210.04.

Nikkei June futures were down 370 at 15,160.

Brokers said they were concerned a possible increase in political and social unrest in Indonesia could further squeeze Japanese companies already battered by a sluggish domestic economy.

The Nikkei average was also pulled down by weakness in construction issues following a Japanese credit rating agency's downgrading of seven medium-sized builders on Friday, the brokers said.

Crystal Ball
(Tue May 05 1998 23:09 - ID#287375)
S&P 500 JUN98 1115.40 -450.... $PREM is niente, way below "fair value". Look out below-- 8800 Dow here we come again.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:13 - ID#244446)
Y2K and the supply of gold
As 2000 approaches, and thereafter, the supply of gold must dry up. Would you sell your seat in the lifeboat as the Titanic takes on water?

As a mine, will you sell gold for dollars when masses are doing the reverse? Will you put those dollars in a bank when the banking system may

fail, or face government imposed restrictions on withdrawls? Will dollars

recieved for gold become as valueless as the Russian Ruble or Confederate play money? Russia and South African gold supplies may be doubtful at best after January 1 of the new Millennium, because they are

doing the least amount of work repairing their code. Both societies are

fragile now. They and their governments may face upheaval in 600 days.

Central banks, nations, mines, individuals, short sellers--all will look

over the y2k chasm, and shrink back. The turbocharger for the gold price

in 1999--the drying up of supply.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:13 - ID#426220)

Tonight will witness the Heng Seng Index penetrate 10000 - a very ominous signal for all China... the devaluation of the Yuan is not too far behind this... then the rest of Asia goes!

(Tue May 05 1998 23:14 - ID#335184)
Skeptic, a commercial break in Tokyo ?
Borrow 125 % against your pagoda: buy a second pagoda; join a country club with a real golf course or jump on a hot stock !
It all adds up to smart money from DIE SUCK FUNDING !
Now back to our regularly scheduled program, GODZEEERAH DOES THE NIKKEI !
They run this nausiating commercial about 20 times a day to pay the light bills on CNN.


(Tue May 05 1998 23:14 - ID#190411)
What do you make of all the Y2K talk? Do you see any unusual movement in grains?
Also, what do you think of gold calls circa mid 99?
I'll be happy to work on the cherokee choo-choo, just post the schedule.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:15 - ID#401237)


NO Executive Privilege, Judges decision.

Much is in motion now.


(Tue May 05 1998 23:16 - ID#238422)
Brother Tom,

I must confess I have no idea. What is going on
is completely out of logic and does not match
results of vodka/pickle test, which previously
worked just fine. Somebody in liquior department
is just sleeping and is not picking up the phone...

But, I see ( under slight influence ) tomorrow
NY gold closing up, probably $1.5-$2.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:16 - ID#31868)
MoreGold - I have truly thought upon the life of this thing known as Camdesuss.
He trods in mud, which is made from the decay which formerly was the peaks and valleys of the lives he has destroyed. I say grind him into that which will take up no more space than a lie, and seal it...forever more, let him rot in his own stench...

The big dogs arrive and leave on hooves whose only prayer is in the soup of peasants. Our lives take on meaning when children have more than hope, they have foundation upon which worlds leap out into others they know not but willingly wish to meet with open hands...


(Tue May 05 1998 23:16 - ID#227238)
SWC T 'n A.
gagnrad: To my eye it's a neutral chart ... long term. Fundamentals would have to prevail here. It's now turning back for the third time from old highs in the 28 range. If it broke to 30+ it would be a fair bet that a new trend was in place and would continue to prevail. The short term chart is still inside the channel that I constructed and still short term bullish. It could see 24 without a change of opinion.

Perhaps there are many others like myself who are waiting to see if new management has its act together. They seem to have accomplished last year's tasks and goals without a glitch. ...... Digging an 18 mile tunnel - or whatever the length is - would seem to me to be project of special dimension. If successful, it would ward off any concern for winter weather in Montana. Eh? ....... All things considered, it still looks like a winner.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:21 - ID#401237)

S&P 500 JUN98 1115.80 -440
E-MINI JUN98 1115.50B -450
SEP98 1128.25A -375
NSDQ100 JUN98 1249.50B -375


(Tue May 05 1998 23:22 - ID#284255)
JTF - Ping II
I'm expecting it to expand outwards to be larger than Ping I
Within the next ten trading days.
When we had the same thing happen in Oct97
The ping-o-meter was doing the same thing
A little impulse followed by a quiet rally
Then the next wave on the ping-o-meter started expanding
Culminating in the big fall.
At least that's what the internals are looking like to me.

Asia is going broke
And reality is setting in
Contagion travels fast
The ripple effect

(Tue May 05 1998 23:28 - ID#173274)
@the scene
sharefin -- I have to concur. Something seems to be comin' down. And it 'ain't' just the price of gold!

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Tue May 05 1998 23:31 - ID#259253)
Soon to be new and improved..
Please excuse the problems we were having with our silver quotes today. It presently takes five computers running six processes ( mirror sites not included ) to keep current data flowing to our website. We're re-designing from scratch to use two machines, two processes so you can feast on data that'll be more current, more accurate, and more reliable. In the meantime, if you see that gold is in the $3,000.00 range, it's always a good idea to check another source before telling your boss what you really think of him.

To POLARBEAR: You mean like a platinum Mountie? With a guaranteed buy-back at such-and-such a price? If anyone is interested, let me know at If I approach the Mint with a few hundred emails of interest they may find it difficult to ignore.

Kitco Bar & Grill: This is a great idea. I hope the beer that's being served is Canadian. Why doesn't someone create a logo and small banner for it and I'll post it up here as a link?

Technical Glitches Dept: Sorry, this department's on leave for now.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:31 - ID#227238)
Winston: You raise an interesting point. If you were mining precious metals and suddenly found paper currencies collapsing around you; how would you market your product? Phrased another way; what would you accept in exchange for it? Suppliers to the miner would suddenly have to price their product in new and unfamiliar ways. Oz's per gallon ( diesel ) . Oz's per ton ( ammonium nitrate ) . ... etc.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:31 - ID#244446)
Cherokee, thanks *very much* for pointing out the existence of the December 1999 call options on gold futures. I have bought several of the 390s as Y2K insurance. Do you have any opinion on a good strike price to go for?

(Tue May 05 1998 23:32 - ID#284255)
Liberty re your 14:56
If we were to have a crash of the same percentage points as 87
Then the derivatives markets will pull the world to pieces

The sum of the totals of global markets
Is far greater than in 87
Like compare 40% of a trillion
Then 40% of twenty trillion

This is where we are today

If that was to happen
Then ANOTHER could well be right.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:37 - ID#153102)
@The Scene
What is coming down is the paper palace.
When all you have is the obligations of a bankrupt, you ain't got nothun'. That is all Korea had. That is all Japan has. A pyramid of debt is a Ponzi.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:39 - ID#335184)
SHAREFIN, did you get my e-mail ?


(Tue May 05 1998 23:40 - ID#335190)
Godfather III @ Vatican Bank & Millions $'s (gold) Missing (right-left-ash bin)

But, if the Church is "corrupt from top to bottom," as Michael Corleone noted in Godfather III , and tied in with organized crime, the international intelligence community, and shadowy groups with covert goals like P2 - then it is hard to see its power and prominence growing.
From the Donation of Constantine to their role in the Dead Sea Scrolls investigation, there is much in the Church's very history that is suspect and scandalous.

There are the prophecies of St. Malachy and Nostradamus which suggest that at the end of this century the Papacy may face its crisis moment, and possibly its own dissolution. When the full dimensions of the Banco Ambrosiano scandal become clear - and much of those millions are still unaccounted before - the Church may have much to answer for.

The distance of American clerics from the Vatican hierarchy, still largely a stomping ground for Italians and a few other Europeans, grows daily.

As to whether the Church will move left, right, or into the ash bin of history, nobody knows for sure, but some momentous changes are in the wings.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:44 - ID#153102)
@Marketing Gold Product
Here's a novel notion. Gold coin from the mint for gold delivered to the mint. The forty-niner paid for his supplies with gold. The mine paid dividends in gold.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:44 - ID#288140)
Glad you like the name. The Kitco Bar & Grill doesn't have a URL because it's an ICQ chat room. Come have a drink on the house. A lot of Kitcoites folks would love to chat with you.

ICQ number 11998901

Thanks for everything.

Gusto Oro
(Tue May 05 1998 23:46 - ID#377235)
Bart 23:31
LOL! Really enjoy this site. --AG

(Tue May 05 1998 23:46 - ID#173274)
@the scene

Mozel -- No doubt! I think 'things' are particularly afoot at this time! Now, let us see how the spin-meisters handle it and what arm twisting they can still accomplish.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:46 - ID#426220)

Nikkei down more than 400 points... and falling

(Tue May 05 1998 23:46 - ID#31868)
6PAK - it will not be for money that the walls will be for dirtbags that
keep the great books from humanity. Money could never have such value...the books, hidden...kept away...this is why the walls will will see this in your lifetime...hopefully some of the books will remain...hopefully...hopefully...

(Tue May 05 1998 23:47 - ID#284255)
Eldorado - something smelly in the air?
Yes, things do not seem right
Indonesia down 5% now

They have a choice coming now;
Do they throw more funds in, to support - prop the markets?
Or do they let it go it's own way.

For them to prop it now
Means another leg higher
From where the fall will be greater.

Once fear enters the arena
Watch how fast it spreads.
Faster than fire
With the exits non-existent

Beware and bewarned
ALL paper will hurt
Gold shares included

But there'll be bargains galore at the bottom
What a buying opportunity

Nick@C will be in seventh heaven

(Tue May 05 1998 23:50 - ID#401237)

NSDQ100 JUN98 1248.00 -525


(Tue May 05 1998 23:51 - ID#28594)
Dollar? Euro? Gold? -- Asean thoughts...(Scathing re USD)
OK Group--Its not going where I wanted to go...
but---we are supposed to follow where IT leads--
pause, and begin again...The Mighty Dollar...

Asean Financial Initiatives for the 21st Century
Conference Hall 1
Topic: ASEAN Currencies - Crisis & Response
Subject: Euro seen as Alternative to US Dollar for Asian Nations
Posted by ABF Secretariat on October 21, 1997 at 08:32:40:

1. Japan, which has the world's largest official foreign reserves at US$225.569 billion suffered a stunning 9.788 trillion yen worth of currency losses due to the dollar's depreciation by the end of March ( 1997 ) , the MOF said.

2. But a possible reshuffling in Asian investors portfolios which are now dominated by the dollar could well send a shock to the world currency system, analysts say. The foreign reserves of Asia-Pacific nations, including China and Australia but excluding Japan stood at US$488.2 billion at December 1996, compared with US$497.6 billion held by the Group of Seven industrialised countries.

3. Reshuffling by major investors of their portfolios has in the past had a major impact on foreign exchange rates. In April 1995, a move by Asian nations to reduce their US dollar holdings helped drive down the dollar to a historical low of 79.75 yen. 'There will be a heated contest between the euro and dollar to take over as the key currency super-power in the early 21st century,' said Suzaki, professor of economics at Tokyo's Senshu University.

4. US economist Fred Bergsten has said a shift in the power balance will not take much time. 'There is evidence from the history of major currencies that major shocks can produce rapid changes in portfolio composition,' he said

5. Asian investors are also intrigued by the possibility of the euro becoming a key currency because the EMU's policy goals mark a contrast to that of the US. 'The US policy of emphasising growth at the cost of everything else has allowed Washington to run massive fiscal and current account deficits with little official restraint,' Suzaki said. He said the US has taken advantage of the dollar's status as the key global currency, printing unlimited dollars and relying on foreign investors to finance its debt.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:51 - ID#411163)
1929 and today
Sharefin a request-could you post a partial of say, the last months
postings by ANOTHER? Thanks my browser overloads.
ALL a question. From 1929 to 1935 Homestake mining rose 580% due in the most part to the devaluation of the US$ from $20.00 to $38.00.
If one could figure how far up gold would have to be revalued to back the US$ today? ANy guess's on the share price of Homestake anyone???
I have trouble with that many zero's
Bart-the mountie was nice-and the wife didn't figure it out-dammed close though!!

(Tue May 05 1998 23:51 - ID#31868)
sharefin - I disagree - the dollar will soak up
gold and gold shares like a dry sponge...Play Monopoly much...

(Tue May 05 1998 23:52 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
Newtron yes - check yours

Noticed in the paper today that Greenpeace is offering ( I'm not making this up ) a biodegradable credit card.
What a great idea.
I think they should also add a little bit of MSG and people could make soup with it after the crunch.

I saw the Rubin interview also. Remember the point where he stopped the interviewer and asked him if he heard his important point? The point was that investors need to do a more detailed analysis of their investments. That IMO was a warning to the market about current valuations and investments. When the press reviews what he said, I suspect they will find the intent I heard, the market is overvalued. Of course the market will correct before the press figures it out and reports it.
Per CNBC, ( those dogs ) it is guessed that margin reqs. may be raised from 50 - 65%. Last time this was done, was I think '73. What was POG around then?
But anyway, there are many who play the margin ( not me ) . If less people can play on margin, brokers make less money! Less stock is bought & sold! Real assets could be worth more!

(Tue May 05 1998 23:54 - ID#28594)
Oil ~ Euro

7.10 The Euro, currency for fixing international prices

Finally, let us indicate that commodities, starting with oil, at present always priced in dollars, will be quoted in Euros. Therefore, Europeans will no longer depend on the greenback in situations that spread inflation through imports, as is happening in the summer of 1997
with oil and gas.

Dr. R. Tamames
European Monetary Union
Macau, September 1997

(Tue May 05 1998 23:56 - ID#31868)
SDR_er - greetings

(Tue May 05 1998 23:57 - ID#317193)
Brother oris I think the manipulation has gotten so bad there is no ability to guess the market direction. In this environment long term positions seem in order. I am not adding to my futures contracts at all. I am adding physical in shares of CEF to ride out any storms. Silver is in accumulation in addition to gold, if not more so.

Change is near. Safety may be paramount. My gut is saying something but I cant get a handle on it. Wish $318 would show so I can cleanse my system.

Patience may be the watchword in the very short term.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
sharefin -- Just be aware of 'hot coals'. Takes awhile for them to extinguish. As I stated earlier, they SHOULD let the crap revert back to the dust that it is. Let debt-based systems finalize 'their' action. Their ending was written the day they were implemented. Let the lenders pick up the tab, if that be the case. Get it over with. Don't shoulder the people with the debt. Put a sane and just system into place.

(Tue May 05 1998 23:59 - ID#31868)
sharefin - the word he used was
Rigorous - tick, tock, tick, tock...