Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:04 - ID#307271)
Words are a man's thing. In the heavenlies there is no word of man.

When our Father speaks to our hearts he does not speak a human word. The words of our Father are directed to our hearts by as supernatural string of life. I know, because I have been in his presence. To be in the Father's presence is the most humbling experience of my life. Unbelievers always say they will respond this way or that way to the Lord when they are allowed to speak to him. Let me say, any man such as Daniel who has been in God's presence has fell on his face as a dead man.

No word of enmity comes forth from a man blessed by the Father's presence. A man found in the Father's presence only pleads for mercy and forgiveness for his sinful mouth and sinful ways. Hallelujah!

(Sun May 10 1998 00:11 - ID#290118)
that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness... when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.> ( FLD001+90898037+ ) :@@@$REF$

(Sun May 10 1998 00:16 - ID#290118)
IT MANGLED MY URL!> ( FLD001+90898037+ ) :@@@$REF$

To work - the immediately previous URL must have the repeated string from http through field deleted and the spaces inside the parenthesis deleted.
the symbols at the end are retained. Good Luck.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:20 - ID#255284)
Sark - did you see the abandoned silver mine?
Perhaps you bumped into friends or relations of mine in Sark. Including a nonagenerian retired London jeweller. My family seat is in Guernsey. There are a few problems with your scenario, but as my Norman law is very rusty, I shall let them go. The Castle is being built by the Barclay Bros, not the Baring Bros, Isn't it on Brecqhou? it may not mean much in the long term as they are universally condemned in the Channel Islands. The islanders suspect the Barclays intend to start a casino. I met a builder who is working on the castle. He said it will likely be the only castle ever built plumb in Europe.

I hope you got to see Victor Hugo's house in St Peterport. Few people know that Hugo was a decorator and artist as well as author, his house is unique, there are hidden passages, trick mirrors, ceramics from Holland ( forgot their name ) and Flemish Tapestries, Hugo had a monstrous ego, his name and initials are scattered throughout his house, oh yes there was also easy access to his mistress' house across the valley.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:25 - ID#284255)
Not the final word?
When Adam stirred
From that deep sleep
Wakening from the pain
Of the sundered bone
Whence Eve did cleave
With what deep shock
Did Adam
First look on lovely Eve

And she first woman
Look first on Adam

Lovely she was indeed
The Creator
Made all things perfect
( That which we are today
Bears witness to the long hard years
Of human wear and tear )
But Adam and his Eve
Stood then perfect there

What did they say
There in the hot sun
The quiet of that garden
Their beauty and their bodies
Shaped to His purpose
Each in their separate way
On this
Creations brightest loveliest day

Did they
Accept each other
Without doubt or question
From their Creators hand
And understand

Perhaps He counselled them
Offered instruction -- some kindly words
Talked about bees with them perhaps
Or birds

What mutual interest there
What wonder -- what wild surmise
Each drawing confidence from
The rapt approval in each others eyes

Eve eying and comparing
Adams strong chest
With the soft contour
Of her own gentle breast
Her feminine daintiness
Measured against
His sturdy strength
Intrigued at the differences
About the hips
And Adam somewhat troubled
By Eves lips

She felt a confidence within
Approving what she saw
And smiled at him

And both stared -- wide eyed
At the wonder growing in his loins
Both deep aroused to share
The knowledge and the passion
The deep desire shown there

Then chaste and virgin pair
Clear understood it all
With quickened pulse
All senses glowing
The fierce electric fire flowing
Gave all
To that pure ecstasy
Eve took him to her
As it was ordained

He shaped them for this work
With planned deliberation
Designed and contrived it all
Before the Fall

Adam sharing the ecstasy
And the joy of their most urgent need
Gave gladly of his own rich seed
All her maternal need
Now his most tender care

What revelation
For this pristine virgin pair
United with their makers purpose there

The passion and the purpose
Now fulfilled
Rested in peace
Each in the others arms

As Thou Lord willed.

That passage needs to be chiseled into some peoples foreheads.
BC's and Camadeus's would be a good start.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:29 - ID#307271)
Les Miserables
he bounds of human seeking: Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner of magnitude one. Oh! Almighty God, have mercy on your most sinful of servants. I have no right to even ask for your forgiveness.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:36 - ID#307271)

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 10 1998 00:41 - ID#384350)
Missing Link, Word origins, The Italian Lire
I was reading your 23:33 post when something dawned on me. I looked at the word Lire ( Italian money ) .

Lire must derive its meaning from the weight measure of one pound. In France, the word for the weight measure of "pound" is "livre" one can buy "un livre" ( one pound ) of fruit at the market. The french word for the British Pound is also called the "Livre" and in Britain still has the symbol "" for its money.

Now, this must somehow be related to the latin based word for "Free", which would be Libra or "Libre" in French.

As the "b" and "v" sounds are very similar, there must be a connection in the words "Libre" ( free ) , "Livre" ( pound-weight measure ) , "Livre" ( British Pound ) and even "Lire" ( Italian Currency ) .

Therefore I say that Freedom and Money are related, and money is something that is measured by weight.

Since paper doesn't weigh very much, there is no freedom in it ( only slavery ) . True freedom is measured in Gold and Silver coin.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 10 1998 00:42 - ID#384350)
BTW, the $
The origin of the word dollar comes from the Germanic word for to pay.

In Swedish, the word for "to pay" is "beTALAR". Whereas, "Talar" simply means "to talk".

Money talks, so to speak.

Now if someone could explain why the "S" in $

(Sun May 10 1998 00:48 - ID#255284)
off your knees. stand tall. forgiveness lies with you. the glorification of your life lies with you. the celebration of love and life, lies with you. arise and celebrate! reach out to another life and dance in the beauty that surrounds you. your life is dance. may your feet always hear the pulse of loving humanity, and may your dance inspire others to reach new heights of hope. listen, now......

(Sun May 10 1998 00:52 - ID#233199)
@Gianni Dioro__A Re: the "S" in the US dollar

Maybe it stands for "s**t" ?!

(Sun May 10 1998 00:53 - ID#255284)
it's a language thing, you see my handle? I just can't stop asking some questions-----

forgive me, I have to correct you again, this from out-takes from my prospectus dated 1993 for a precious metals investment fund:=

Origins of Dollar

In 1516 new silver deposits were discovered in the St. Jaochim Valley ( in the old German spelling Joachimsthal; today Joachimstal ) in the Erzebirge ( Ore Mountains ) of Bohemia, located today in German Saxony and the Czech Republic. In 1519, the owner of the mines, Count von Schlick, began to mint his bonanza into heavy silver coins weighing about eight-tenths of an ounce. Europe, hungry for any specie money, eagerly gobbled up these new coins nicknamed Joachimsthaler. In German this was shortened to thaler ( pronounced TAH-ler ) , in Dutch Daalder and in English dolor or dollar.

I will be back later with the origin of $.

(Sun May 10 1998 00:54 - ID#233199)
@Gianni Dioro__A Actually, the "S" stands for "States"

Origin: the letters "U" and "S" overlapping...with the "U" turned skinny.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:02 - ID#290118)
The demand for GOLD has damned many to terrible costs just to eke out a meager living for themselves and their families.

Below are true newspaper accounts of early risks associated with bringing a few ounces of GOLD or SILVER to light. {and likely risks still - in more primitive mines today}.

"At one o'clock yesterday there occurred another of those horrible accidents which cause the whole community to shudder and hangs a shadow over the family circle which is not easily driven away... upon returning with his candle to again fire his fuse met the explosion and was blown up..."

"...At 12:00 noon, John Duhen, one of the workmen, had just lighted a fuse for a blast and placing one foot in the bucket, called for the men above to hoist. He ascended 60 feet from the bottom of shaft when one of the standards of the windlass broke. It fell across the shaft and there caught, but the sudden fall of about six feet threw Duhen from the bucket and he fell 60 feet to the bottom of the shaft. Within a minute thereafter, the blast went off. The windlass was righted and a man lowered, but upon reaching the bottom, the injured man was found to be beyond help..."

from LEADVILLE" A MINERS EPIC by Stephen M. Voynick
ISBN 0-87842-171-8

Stephen, himself a miner, a now a writer {and a friend}, further documents the human costs of mining - now embodied in the coins and bars we value. How easy it is to overlook these costs when dealing with clean numbers on a computer screen that represent PM futures, stock prices and - underneath it all - the men and women sweating and dying to bring us GOLD or SILVER or other PMs.

" will never be known how many miners became 'rocked up' and died a slow, horrible death. Leadville funeral records show many men in their twenties and thirties dying of 'consumption' and other pulmonary problems...As most already suspected, it was the inhalation of rock dust created by dry drilling, mucking, crushing, and hauling in the underground...The afflicted miner simply smothered to death. The irreversible disease had no cure or relief, and its appalling death rate earned the mechanical rock drills the name of 'widowmakers'."

Some of us may know.
"Every now and then I get out a five ounce bar. I hold it gently and caress it. I think of where it has been, who may have previously owned it, the hardships required to find, mine, & refine it."
posted here by Nick on Mon Apr 27 1998 05:35

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 10 1998 01:02 - ID#384350)
Aurator, Sark
Aurator, Does your family own a tenament then, or do they rent?

The info I got was from asking around, so I suppose there might be some errors there. Heck, I even caught lots of people mistaking the names Baring and Barclay when I was there, and thus my confusion.

You're right, it is the Barclay Brothers. I heard they are not even brothers, but assumed the Barclay name due to its prestige.

I'm not certain of the name of the islet on which they are building their castle, maybe it is Brecqhou.

They are building it on a tiny island off of the main isle of Sark. This tiny island is however one of the 40 tenaments of Sark.

They are ruffling feathers there. I heard they want to amend survivorship laws so that the property can be passed on to one of their daughters. This would require changing Sark's laws and may open up a Pandora's box.

In Guernsey, I unfortunately didn't see V Hugo's House because it was closed for the winter. I did see a tiny chapel though.

Might go back this summer. See you there.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:04 - ID#307271)
The Lamb's Book of Life
I have written a tract called "The Lamb's Book of Life", for you see

my Father is Jewish and He keeps two sets of books:

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

You see I love my Father and He loves me.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:09 - ID#45173)
@Gold sellers: as a service to anyone here who believes in the
"new economy" here in the USA that is now and forever more free from the economic laws that have determined the fates of nations since the first nation came to be, here's a guy who'll take that useless gold off your hands for ya. Following are Richard Cook's URL and pitch directed at those who bought gold at its peak. I especially like his assessment of the future of the depressed gold market, that there is "no reversal of these market factors on the horizon." Except perhaps factors just like those that caused the last ten-fold increase in the price of gold.


I "invested" in coins in the '80's, now what?

During the 70's and 80's many people "invested" in rare coins, gold, and silver.

Since that time, the market has changed dramatically.

Many of these "investments" are no longer worth what they once were.
Gold and silver prices are far from the market highs we saw when these purchases were made. Rare coin grading standards have become much tougher.

There seems to be no reversal of these market factors on the horizon.

For these reasons, many people choose to liquidate these properties and put the money to better use. Most can take advantage of the tax-loss and save hundreds or thousands of dollars on their tax returns.

Richard Cook

(Sun May 10 1998 01:14 - ID#290118)
Being so far from us in THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (esp U SWP1)
You may never lay your eyes upon those words chiseled into a marble wall. But rest assured, my dear friend, they overlook the standing figure of Thomas Jefferson in America's memorial to him. With those words he delivered to us our "Declaration of Independence".

(Sun May 10 1998 01:24 - ID#255284)
to Guernsey, me, cordamme
Landowners in Guernsey. The Barclays are twins. This week Guersney celebrated Liberation day. Liberation from the Nazi Jackboot on 9 May 1945. My family, some of them, remained behind during the occupation. They fed the German's slaves, from the hated Todt construction corps who were even worse off than the residents.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:28 - ID#433172)
nightrider guilt
Grevience seekers abound. Get a little high ground and pee on everybody.Heh,heh. Native Americans or Indian or blacks or Irish or any body, point to the past and say what bad people did to us. The slightest acquaintance with impartial history would inform anybody every tribe, every clan, every ethnic group has leaned on anybody it could.. and still does.

Anybody hear about Kenniwick man?? 10,000 year old skeleton found in Washington state,looks like a caucasoid. The natives are preventing a DNA analysis ( sacred remains ) . Question is, whose remains. If they are caucasian remains ( spear point in the pelvis ) maybe the indians actually came from India or whereever and practiced genocide on MY ancestors? The Dept of interior has it for now.

We are going to have ethnic problems in the US, a level playing field is the only format that will work, and the natives where I live want special privilege,and deference too.
Look at it this way. Should one kid take precedence over another? I don"t want my kid to get special favor, it would ruin him.
On the other hand these problems are bullish to the price of gold,and the world wasn"t perfect when I got here anyway. I'm ready, but I don't like it.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:29 - ID#373403)
Goldsmiths and the Bible
The Lord spoke to Moses: See, I have singled out by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. I have endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft; to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, to cut stones for setting and to carve wood-to work in every kind of craft. ( Exodus 31 )

(Sun May 10 1998 01:33 - ID#255151)

Good evening Kitco. Got to thinking about the beauty of Gold today. You ever notice that Gold goes well with just about any color? Think about it. Red and Gold, blue and Gold, black and Gold, white and Gold, green and Gold, purple and Gold, well you get my point. Thus endeth my Sermon on the Mountie.

(Sun May 10 1998 01:41 - ID#290118)
to wax lyrical regarding scripture, pronouncements and better than thou-ism. Some of the most infamous and dark days and decades of human history of been imposed upon us by religious zealots determined to save your soul by words and deeds - even if they have to torture and kill you and tens of thousands ( or millions ) of others to do so. Their tools also include censorship and tyranny. They have NO TOLERANCE for those who do not believe as they do. You are not permitted to remain silent or discreet in your beliefs ( whatever they may be ) . Silence regarding this matter is punishable by in-your-face sermonizing and public censure. America was founded by those fleeing religious persecution. But after arriving here those religious hypocrits did it themselves - causing their victims to flee south and establish the colonies that became Rhode Island.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 10 1998 01:47 - ID#384350)
Aurator, SWP
On Sark & Guernsey I asked a lot of questions, most of what I heard was hearsay, including some from foreigners that had only been on Sark for a couple of months. Thanks for the clarification.

On the dollar, thanks again for its origin. I think you're explanation is correct and gives the word its very beginning.
The germanic word for "to pay" probably comes from the same origin, these same silver mines. In German to pay is "be zahlen". I pray my college German is correct. I've made too many little errors for one day. So if I'm wrong, please no corrections till tomorrow, Thank you.

SWP, thanks for the new$.

(Sun May 10 1998 02:13 - ID#290118)
With Zeke's ranting behind me but his Gold Analysis still valued...
That is beautiful! Absolutely wonderful!
You handled the birds and the bees with exquisite taste!
Thank you for sharing it with us!

I noticed you copyrighted to yourself, only. Good move!

(Sun May 10 1998 02:15 - ID#284255)
May -Treacherous - May
May-Treacherous:May has proven to be a treacherous month to forecast and has a record of treacherous behavior, with the last-half action usually reversing or consolidating any trend of the first few weeks. Since 1960,the months record has been disappointing for bulls,with 18 losers including the hard hits of 1962 and1970. The record improved to neutral in the 1980's, at 5 to 5. Even then the win side was difficult. In 1987, the Dow gained five points for the month. But first it suffered a collapse of nearly 200 intraday Dow points before making a micacle recovery.Buyers of stock on any May weakness at least know that the postulated "summer rally" will within a few weeks give them a lot of lip service.More than six summer rallies of over 10% since WWII had their footing in May. In 1970 and 1987 the rallies amounted to more thatn 20%. The secular record is slightly negative, compared to recent action. Mays three worst losses all more than 50 years ago. The 1940 Dunkerque slide was the heaviest decline for any month between 1938 and 1987. May boxscore; annual high/lows:Highs ( 2 ) since 1950:1. Lows:4 since 1950:2. Best /worst performances, gains%;1897/14.7%,1919/13.6% ,1933/13.5%. losses; 1940/21.7% ,1932/20.3% ,1931/15.0%. yearly record 49 advances 52 declines. major tops/bottoms: Bull markets ( 1 ) ;May 29,1946. end of the great WWII bull marketBear markets ( 1 ) ; May 26,1970. a day of record panic.A loss of 3.1% or 20.81 points

(Sun May 10 1998 02:19 - ID#253228)
Unwinding after a fun day, and now to bed
In a junk shop today I bought a few one oz. silver coins minted by Liberty Mint and on the back they printed part of the constitution re: states not making anything but gold and silver coin legal tender.

My wife and I were talking about how ignorant we were back in 1964 when con men in Washington took sivler coins out of circulation. One of the questions my wife asked was, "What if they had left silver coins in circulation?" My first thought was that they would have had a problem, because you could not have worthless paper circulating on a parity along with valuable coins. The silver and silver certificates had to go and in their place worthless coins had to be substituted so the coins would be equal in value to the paper, otherwise coins would have disappeared gradually on thier own. Who would give up a valuable coin for a worthless piece of paper. The old law about bad money driving good money out of circulation.

That got me thinking about the other part of the constitution prohibiting states from emiting bills of credit. When I arrived home and unwound from my days adventure I looked around for an old copy of the US Constitution ( in a book ) which I had purchased back 15 years or so ago. I couldn't find it although I know I did not throw it out like the gang in Washington long ago did. Anyway I do remember that no state is supposed to emit bills of credit. I never really understood what bills of credit were. I know the word bill is used to described money occasionally as in "dollar bill". The modern dictionary I found says "a bill or note for raising money on the mere credit of a State, a written request that the receiver thereof shall credit the bearer as specified, on the security of the writer." I wonder what the Framers of that failed document intended. Did they mean States were not to issue any notes, that is not go into debt, plus not issue money as they had done during the Revolutionary War or just not issue the equivalent of money?

I know the Constitution was written to prohibit the States which already existed from doing certain things and to authorize the new Federal entity to do only what was authorized. I understand that the power to emit bills of credit was discussed in the Constitutional convention and it was decided not to give the new Federal government the power to emit bills of credit ( paper money backed by the credit of the Federal government ) . Too bad they didn't specifically state that the Federal government was not authorized to emit bills of credit, but the poor Framers I guess could not think of everything. Actually, I have my doubts about the quality of these people in spite of my public school indoctrination. My guess as to the character of most of them is that they were collectivist jerks, just as are most who are attracted to government. ( Collectivist jerks are in my mind perople who failed to fully form a separate ( independent ) identity during thier maturing process and still can't see the boundary between themselves and others. )

Boy, it should be obvious why the Constitution failed. The government that was created is the same government that is supposed to police itself. The rat is guarding the silo.

The action in 1964 was an admission that fiat currency is worthless and that precious metals are valuable.

The value will fluctuate as it always did when gold and silver coins were officially recognized as legal tender. In the long run holders of these coins and/or bullion will see the true value of precious mentals and the true lack of value of credit ( debt ) backed money. In the short run, it is best not to convert your intrinsically worthless paper into the precious stuff. This is only because of a temporary fad that will end later this year. At that time the metals and the shares of miners will be the steal of the century.

In the interim, it is best to be in money market funds or short the glittery stuff and the glittery shares. Also the peak of the stock market has in all probability passed, so unless you like to see 1/3 of your wealth disappear, stay away from the stock market.

(Sun May 10 1998 02:32 - ID#255151)
Jeil @ 02:19

Excellent post. Saved that one. Kinda hope you're wrong about Homestake, though. :- )

(Sun May 10 1998 02:35 - ID#284255)
Squirrel - plenty more where that one came from.
It is some of my Dad's work.
I thought a fitting end to the Dear God diatribe. ( :- ) ) ) )
Are stocks poised to flame out?

(Sun May 10 1998 02:38 - ID#255284)
power and
I feel duty bound to inform this convocation that we, Auckland, have just suffered another power cut, one series of transformers is currently aflame in Karangahape Rd. ( don't try to pronounce it ) My lights flickered but for an instant, parts of the CB are without electricity. Glad I don't live in the third world.

there is an instructional video airing about viagra. I am too squeamish...

(Sun May 10 1998 02:43 - ID#255284)
Assistance, please.....I, say, how can one assay?

can you advise me of an easy way to test for gold:
( a ) presence
( b ) Karatage?

Where can I buy the required chemicals?

(Sun May 10 1998 02:45 - ID#284255)
Shakespear's King John act 3
Bell, book and candle, shall not drive me back.

When gold and silver beckons me.

Six Days

Six days He said
And it was so
Because He said it.

For, as He explained to Eve
Who liked to talk about things
In a general kind of way
( Before He tempted them. )

It was manifestly
Quite impossible
To set out all the detail
They wouldn't understand
The science or the planning.

Why sure, they must have truth
Laid out most clear
And simple in their day
That he who runs may read
No fool
Need stumble on this way.

And so the long ages
Of thoughtful preparation
Land -- seas -- and air
And the sun and moon
Made the rich seed bed
Of all the wonder there.

Then the reproductive cells
And the selection of the best
From the humblest beginnings
Dear Eve -- another age
Has quickly passed by here.

Then the simple cell
Through progressive orders
Each the planned product
Of the proven one before
Flora and fauna in profusion
Grace earth, in variety profound
And through the years -- long ages
Transformed to higher orders
Our critics to confound.

Long ages and profoundest thought
To consolidate the frame
And vital parts -- womb, heart and brain
Transmission of the best
By cross fertility to shape
All future destinies, and so refine
Orders with species -- beauty and design.

And so by such tedious
Constructive and intensive
Means, cunning and inventive
( The knowing ones will understand
The symbols and the deep intent )
The universal oneness
Of each separate individual --
By such means have I evolved
My consciousness in man.

And this world's work dear Eve
Is really just begun
With you
Your children will resolve
Great mysteries, bright in the dreaming
Their hands, my hands will be
Unfolding all - shaping the future
Whence all return to me.

How tell them this?
Always they ask "why"
And "who" and "how"
But wax impatient
Beg for simple answers
Magic -- signs.

And so I said "Six days"
Thus encompassing all
Countless eons are compressed
In proper order
In those six days expressed.

And on the seventh day
( Septenary signs, ripe with
Wisdom of the ages lie about )
Thus on the seventh day
I rested.

So rest you Dear Eve
And ponder wisdom
Understanding will flower
In the deep heart.

Reflect on my words and works
In certain faith
And through long ages yet to be
Hold steadfast faith
With confidence in me.

(Sun May 10 1998 02:50 - ID#284255)
Aurator - tis easy
Cranga-happy road.

Tis lights out for sunny Auckland?

Y2K could never be this bad?

(Sun May 10 1998 02:52 - ID#284255)
Temples E-wave site
Free for a week.
Just enter WINNER in each of the password boxes. - Captitals only.

(Sun May 10 1998 02:53 - ID#255151)

The Kiwis are just trying to get ahead of everyone on Y2K with these power outages. BTW, is Peter Snell still around?

(Sun May 10 1998 03:02 - ID#413109)
6-PAK- re your posts of yesterday ( Dickshovel ) -please contact me.

(Sun May 10 1998 03:05 - ID#344308)


.....or any-body...who is sark?

there was a book written of him and his ilk...

sci-fi at its' best....

readers are leaders.........i've done my reading.......who is he???
if you can identify.......a seat on the ssm awaits....

John Disney__A
(Sun May 10 1998 03:07 - ID#24135)
for RAY
Was that White Skunk a SIGN ??
for Caper
Welcome to my Camp .. so far you
are the only guy here..

(Sun May 10 1998 03:15 - ID#255151)
Gold Mettle

Just did a search on Inference Find for Peter Snell. Oh, BTW, Ive posted this before, but Inference Find is my favorite search engine. Easy to use, practical, and fairly comprehensive. Anyway, Snell won several Gold Medals in the Olympics in 1960 and 1964. He received a PhD in Sports Medicine.

(Sun May 10 1998 03:16 - ID#284255)
Fed Y2K Testing To Start June 29
-- The Fed Wire: a network used for final settlements of large transactions between major financial institutions. The network handles an average of $1.0 trillion a day;
-- The Automated Clearing House ( ACH ) : a nationwide electronic fund transfer system developed jointly by the private sector and the Fed in the early 1970s;
-- Federal Reserve accounting;
-- Cash management; and
-- Check processing.

( Bottom line )
'Trust us. We'll take care of the problem'

( Same reponse that I recieved from local power utility )

(Sun May 10 1998 03:19 - ID#284255)
ITAA Offers Congress Five Step Plan on Y2K
``single most important information technology challenge facing government and industry today.''
``As a society, we are on the point of conceding's crazy. It's frustrating. It cannot be happening. But it is.''

Miller outlined a five point plan for Congress to assist in warding off global disaster:

--Step up to the challenge by accepting the mantle of leadership and adopting a sense of ownership;
--Spend the money required to fix the problem inside government and understand the status of external trading parties;
--Provide the public education required to help citizens understand the issue and concentrate their attention moving forward;
--Provide rational public policy solutions to the issue, bringing greater creativity to bear;
--Exercise the discipline necessary to allow existing systems, such as those at the Internal Revenue Service, to be fixed without increasing the risk of failure by passing new laws which impose additional requirements.

``Congress does not want to be placed in the position of wishing it had taken this issue more seriously while there was time left to address the challenges,'' Miller said.

(Sun May 10 1998 03:22 - ID#39828)
The Age, Sat 9 May. Melb. Australia.
by Christopher Webb.

One of George Soros's major funds has been a quantity buyer of scrip[ in Yossel Gutnick's yellow metal flagship, Great Central Mines.

Soros's Quantum Dolphin fund has emerged with slightly more than 15 million shares in GCM which was enough to place it in substantial shareholder territory with a 5.4% stake.

It appears that all or much of the stake was booked by Levi Mochkin - Gutnicks trusty stockbroking mate who operates out of Bell Securities.

It is unclear how Quantum Dolphin is faring with the holding as full-price details are unknown.

However, a million shares were bought for $1.97 and another line of 4.6 million went for $2.03.

GCM is now fetching $2.31.

Yossel last night welcomed his new shareholder and said that Soros had surfaced as a substantial shareholder in any member of the Gutnick stable.

"I am delighted," he told us,"they've recognised our gold stock as an's an endorsement of their belief that the gold price has settled down.":

Recalling he had met Soros several times, Gutnick said various Soros funds were "buying counter-cyclically into gold stocks".

He explained: "You buy when the market is at ( the ) bottom."

If the Soros entity bought its entire stake during the past six months then it is ahead of the game as GCM is now fetching $2.31.

Much befor that, though, and it would be losing money.

The Soros interests join Normandy Mining on the GCM register.

Normandy has also been the subject of buying by an agressive offshore fund in the form of Julian Robertson's outfit Tiger Fund.

Last October, Tiger relieved Newcrestr Mining of its 12% stake in Normandy at $1.78 a share. So far, Newcrest is ahead in that $343 million wager as Normandy scrip is now at $1.57.

(Sun May 10 1998 03:23 - ID#255151)

Bloody high time the powers that be learn the meaning of triage!

(Sun May 10 1998 03:25 - ID#255284)
Peter Snell Gold medal winner
last time I tried to tell you about Peter Snell we lost kitco for awhile, remember? I had a long response for you, now lost.. in the meantime===

Peter Snell is living in the US. My brother-in-law saw him break the 4 minute mile in Wanganui, Crystal Park? Snell was the first man to do this in NZ. He, like all our great Sportsmen and women, is revered here.

PETER GEORGE SNELL ( b. Dec. 17, 1938, Opunake, N.Z. ) ,New Zealand middle-distance runner who was a world-record holder in the 800-metre race ( 1962-68 ) , the 1,000-metre race ( 1964-65 ) , the mile ( 1962-65 ) , the 880-yard race ( 1962-66 )

(Sun May 10 1998 03:31 - ID#413109)
Comment- for Aurator
Date: Sun May 10 1998 00:53
aurator ( it's a language thing, you see my handle? I just can't stop asking some questions----- )
You can file this where-ever, but it's from my childhood-
Der der den Pfennig nicht ehrt, ist dem Thaler nicht wert. ( loosly translated- if you don't value the penny,
you are not deserving of the "$". )

(Sun May 10 1998 03:36 - ID#255284)
I have two answers for you, but I am afraid neither is the one you are seeking
a ) Saki, the nom de plume of HH Munro, the best English short story writer of the first 2 decades of this Century, imho
b ) Mervyn Peake's Titus Groan.

I shall await the true answer and wave to the smokemobile as it passes with its illustrious human cargo.

Didja see that wonderful metaphor earlier, the Web somehow tilted and some quite interesting folk found themselves gravitating towards kitco.

As we spin around, perhaps to end up down the gurgler, consider which way water goes down the plughole

Are you widdershins or doesil?

(Sun May 10 1998 03:39 - ID#255284)
nothing to do with diets...

And from England

Look after the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves.

(Sun May 10 1998 03:41 - ID#255151)
aurator--Thanks for info on P. Snell

Missed that previous post. If you blink, Kitco passes you by, eh! :- )

(Sun May 10 1998 03:48 - ID#284255)
Hedgehog - oh what a tangled web they weave.
Soros is getting his feet wet in many ways with regards to gold and silver.
Between Soros, his brother and the Tiger fund they have been accumulating more and more.
Normady was speading their tentacles with Gutnick's stable and now the overseas giants are flexing their muscles.
You don't need to stand on the shoulders of these giants to see where PM's are going.

It's going to take a lot to get all the ostriches to look up and see the sky.
Wait till they start to say the sky's falling.

Then we should run for cover. ( :- ) ) )

(Sun May 10 1998 03:49 - ID#39828)
sharefin and Donald, here is what chief of NAB, Argus thinks about $Aus.
Sunday 10 May, 1998 ( 1:13pm AEST )

The head of Australia's most profitable bank believes the
Australian dollar could fall to 62-US cents.

Don Argus, Chief Executive of the National Australia Bank,
says the country's poor current account position makes the
dollar more vulnerable to international pressure.

The dollar is trading just below 64-US cents.

Mr Argus told Australia's Channel 9 Network, the dollar is
likely to get weaker before it strengthens.

In the long term we've got about 70, in the short term
probably between 62 and 65. "Not lower, couldn't test the
61?" It could do but again, I'm not good at picking where
currencies or interest rates go. All I can do is make a
judgement based on what's presented to me and that's
where we put our figures.

Return to the World News Menu

plus from the Asia Pacific Region in Indonesian, Chinese and Tok Pisin

 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Sun May 10 13:30:01 1998 ( AEST )

AEST = Australian Eastern Standard Time

(Sun May 10 1998 03:55 - ID#255151)

Agree. I'll have a grim chuckle when the idiots in charge start running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

(Sun May 10 1998 04:01 - ID#255284)
wait till "they" say ostriches are flying.
then count the ones who agree.
there are times when we all doubt what we see
it is the strong who shall prevail

(Sun May 10 1998 04:05 - ID#284255)
Auric - oh observer of headless chickens
When they get to that stage I'll start to bury mine.
It will be interesating to see how the Fed testing goes.
So far most Y2K screen tests seem to end up with a blank screen.

FOCUS-Indonesia creditors leave corp debt unsolved

Indonesia debt talks to resume May 26 in Frankfurt>

Japan PM to play up bad loan measures at G8 summit

Indonesia debt talks may need more time-World Bank

Asian dilemma: pain now, gain later

FUND VIEW-Asia stagnates while Indonesia simmers

The world is watching you, G8 tells Indonesia

Indonesia debt talks in Tokyo end--BTM official

(Sun May 10 1998 04:13 - ID#255284)
the only news that means anything
Kiwi, sharefin, Reify, JD, Stralians. Safricans, Welshmen, Pommies, All who love footie....
the best ( ? ) rugby news

(Sun May 10 1998 04:21 - ID#255151)

Are you guys Kickoites? :- )

(Sun May 10 1998 04:31 - ID#255284)
nobody here but us chickens.
sharefin, auric, studio
umm, here is a site for the NZ band, The Headless Chickens. They really are rather good

And so, the chicken standard is revisited

(Sun May 10 1998 04:36 - ID#284255)
HK equities overvalued, says analyst
Dresdner Kleinwort Benson said yesterday the Hong Kong stock market should trade at at least half its current levels, with companies still holding at highly unsustainable valuations.
Fleeing foreigners define negative tone for market
South Korean stocks closed lower yesterday as foreign investors, unsure of recovery, continued fleeing the market.
Fleeing foreigners define negative tone for market
South Korean stocks closed lower yesterday as foreign investors, unsure of recovery, continued fleeing the market.
Resources drop on worries over Asian demand
Australian stocks were mixed yesterday as a fall in resources stocks, such as Rio Tinto, amid concern about slowing demand for bulk commodities from Asia, offset a rise in bank counters.

Auric - good reading here - with more links
Millennium timebomb
Lack of technology bugs Asia's banks before millennium
Come the chaos, blame the geeks

(Sun May 10 1998 04:37 - ID#230376)
@ All....

Did you blokes know that Baseball is the oldest sport????? It's roots are found in the bible............ Genisis 1:1......... In the BIG INNING........ Good day from the chilly Midwest...

(Sun May 10 1998 04:38 - ID#255284)
a rose by any other name
sounds like:

( a ) something that weakens superman
( b ) someone who does odd things to little kittens
( c ) a skin disease
( d ) prehistoric vermin
( e ) a fossilised chicken-head
( f ) alien matter from outer space
( g ) a vice prohibited by a commandment
( h ) a gold bug

yeah, that sounds like me.

(Sun May 10 1998 04:38 - ID#284255)
Email from son in Indonesia - from the horse's mouth
G'day! How are things going in Cairns at the moment ? Life here is getting pretty
interesting, and a little scary too i must admit. The student riots are continuing
but have recently become more dangerous as the more radical students try to take
the demo's off campus, and are joined by more nasty elements of society. Last tuesday
there was a huge riot outside my campus, from 11am until 2am the next morning. When
i rode to uni on wednesday morning i started crying from all the tear gas that was
still in the atmosphere!! ( Very different to protesting against amanda vanstone ) .
Then again the last two nights there have been big riots, but it seems to be less
students now and more bored/frustrated/unemployed young guys with not much else to
do. A small police station was burnt down and the local KFC had all its windows smashed
( however they still managed to open for business today which was quite a feat ) . A
lot of the shops have closed and people are staying indoors a lot - especially at
night. I know it must be hard to believe, but i still feel safe. I know all the "bad
spots" here and just avoid them as much as is possible, especially after dark. The
police quickly tell you to move on if you stumble into a dangerous situation, so
my thinking is that i'll be OK so long as I'm careful. From what I read in the papers
there a basically protests in every city, and while Yogya is not the worst things
are getting quite desparate. The reason for it this week was that feul and electricity
prices were raised - although the government had no chioce because it was one of
the conditions in the IMF deal that the subsidies to those industries were stopped.
I think that things may deteriorate here over the next 6 months, so I'm glad that
I'm leaving in about 6 weeks ( at this stage my ticket home is June 22, but like everything
else in Indonesia is uncertain ) .

(Sun May 10 1998 04:40 - ID#255151)
Answer--Headless Chicken

Question--What did the president become when Monica was transferred from the White House?

(Sun May 10 1998 04:43 - ID#284255)
How much clout does this ITAA group have?

(Sun May 10 1998 04:43 - ID#230376)
O.K. Auric...

I give up. What?

(Sun May 10 1998 04:43 - ID#255284)
jingle bells
you slay me.
you sleigh me
Use lam

(Sun May 10 1998 04:46 - ID#230376)
@ Auracious....

Jingle bells, jingle bells, golden jingle bells !!!!!

(Sun May 10 1998 04:50 - ID#284255)
Pssstt - want a real time clock? or a surreal one
Year 2000: Kill The Clock
"They dont want a Band-Aid,"
"They want something that they dont have to worry about."

Closer to home, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has had to replace the real-time clocks on hundreds of PCs with Year 2000-compliant clock chips. Last year, a batch of 600 new PCs flunked the agencys Year 2000 test. While some federal agencies have settled for software fixes, NRC "wanted the hardware itself to be Year 2000-compliant,"

(Sun May 10 1998 04:52 - ID#255151)

Don't know. They do seem to grasp the problem and have some concrete ideas. As to what they can accomplish in this time of denial, your guess is as good as mine.

(Sun May 10 1998 04:52 - ID#255284)
did the earth move for you today?
earthquake down below yesterday, in beautiful Wellington
just rattled a few glasses

(Sun May 10 1998 04:56 - ID#230376)
POG can't go lower...
Bart would have to arbitrage the Mounties.......Auric.... Go to your room.

(Sun May 10 1998 04:59 - ID#255151)

I AM in my room! :- )

(Sun May 10 1998 05:02 - ID#230376)
Are youse guys kidding?????

Congress...... ELECTION YEAR .....gimme a break . bbml

(Sun May 10 1998 05:12 - ID#255151)
Off to Bed

Farewell, all posters and lurkers. ANOTHER day has come and gone at Kitco. Can't wait to log in tonight and see what the hot topic is on the Sunday Edition of Kitco. I'm sure it will be something out of the ordinary. Good night from the balmy Midwest. :- )

(Sun May 10 1998 05:19 - ID#255284)
and gnite from the autumnally antipodean auckland, the town that is, to be Politically Correct, ( thanks to Fred@Vienna ) "AC/DC challenged".

missed your reply before
crap'n be happy road

(Sun May 10 1998 05:29 - ID#284255)
What else to do?
Gone to plop a mullie
'Neath a big barra's nose.

Under the shades of the moon
By the banks of the rivers elbow.

Dreaming of gold being so high
As the moons silver glow.

(Sun May 10 1998 05:42 - ID#255284)
tight lines

(Sun May 10 1998 05:50 - ID#284255)
Worth a view?
Funnily enough SI Goldbug forum is full of Y2K as well as Kitco.

Is this mere coincidence or is
Kitco at the forefront of the news
That will move the POG tomorrow.

Ta mate
Love to hook a 'kingy' again.

(Sun May 10 1998 05:55 - ID#284255)
Could this be HM or IBM? - think twice and think again.

(Sun May 10 1998 06:23 - ID#307271)
Baseball Ben Berry Berry Good To Me!

(Sun May 10 1998 06:39 - ID#26793)
Indonesian corporations want a four year grace period on debt payments

Gusto Oro
(Sun May 10 1998 06:43 - ID#377235)
Thanks for your post on Indonesia. Doesn't sound like it's close to getting better there. --Al

(Sun May 10 1998 06:45 - ID#26793)
Trouble in Chiapas, Mexico about to spill over into world trade scene.

(Sun May 10 1998 06:58 - ID#26793)
Deutsche Bank may open 25 branches in Switzerland.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:02 - ID#26793)
Asian governments having problems getting citizens to swallow Western medecine.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:04 - ID#26793)
Medecine = Medicine in econospeak

(Sun May 10 1998 07:09 - ID#26793)
Thousands riot in China 10 days ago. News just getting out.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:11 - ID#255151)

The big boys have a f*ing mess on their hands and they haven't the foggiest idea how to deal with it.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:11 - ID#411331)
@all: I have noticed that chartists tend to plot channels on graphs in a linear fashion.
I refer to Kitcoites who says things like, "lay your ruler along the bottoms recorded on dates blah, blah and blah and draw a line. Then
lay your ruler along highs on dates blither, blither and blither and
draw another line." This defines the general trend or "channel" The tops and bottom lines are usually parallel, and if not, we have a
"converging triangle" which implies a market crisis at some time in
the future. I have looked at many graphs ( who hasn't? ) and I see many instances where the pattern is exponential, not linear. Are exponential
relationships in economics illegal? or are they supposedly so rare they can be ignored as short term aberrations in chartist lore?

(Sun May 10 1998 07:21 - ID#26793)
Macau suffers revenue decline from gambling as Asian economy falters.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:24 - ID#26793)
My TV keeps saying the Asian crisis is over. It was just a temporary thing.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:31 - ID#341189)
Good Morning
Sharefin, thanks for the Indonesian update from your son. Lots of concern ( finally ) here in the US. Note the todays NYTimes article I posted about 11:30 last night.
Donald, I appreciate your news as usual. The second leg of the finacial crisis is definately getting more political as failed theories lead to real results for real people.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:33 - ID#26793)
Economists say Friday employment report was flawed.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:38 - ID#26793)
I still see no way out of this mess. The 30's Depression was postponed for WW II. The 1946 post-war depression was postponed for the Cold War. The end of the Cold War in 1989 is letting the free market do its job. A lot of illusion has been there for so long it seemed like reality. Now we will find out what is real.

(Sun May 10 1998 07:50 - ID#248180)
@Soros - Great Central & Normandy -OZ mines
Hedgehog @ 03:22
Moving US$ & BPS at rates approx. A$1.00 = $0.64USD or
A$1.00= BPS 0.38P and buying "undervalued" Australian mining stocks is very sound indeed. It is also a great hedge if one is betting long term against the US$ and BPS. We are doing exactly that, closing out slowly in USA & Great Britian and buying Australian mining stocks. This momentum will increase quickly. Follow the smart old money, they create the flow and then the herd follows.

Steve in TO__A
(Sun May 10 1998 07:59 - ID#287337)
Donald - this is big
ThanQ for your links. The sheep here in N. America have no idea how parts of the world are dissolving into chaos. In indonesia the immovable object ( Suharto's gov't ) is meeting the irresistable force of 200 million people who are getting angry. This won't be a quick or unopposed transition like the fall of the East German or Soviet governments. There will be massive pain and bloodshed, possibly with new, even more fascist governments coming to power.

What is happening in SE Asia parallels what happened in Latin America in the '20s and '30s.

The communique from the G8 attendees to Indonesia lets the cat out of the bag as to what they're really worried about.

It seems Clinton got everyone together last week to hand the word to Greenspan: no interest rate increases! And his press secretary McCurry had the gall to say to reporters that interest rates weren't on the agenda- or even discussed. How does this guy manage to look at himself in the mirror in the morning? He has the effrontery to say that the thing that is concerning the stock markets more than anything else didn't even come up for discussion?

The word got out to the street very quickly that rates will be held down, but something is wrong here- sooner or later something will have to give. What do you guys think will happen? I don't think inflation will increase too much because deflation will be imported form Asia, but perhaps massive job losses will result from that?

At any rate, it's clear to me that Clinton will do anything to ensure his political survival by keeping the markets buoyant. This would be one difference from Nixon, who tried a few things to forstall the recession that led to his downfall, but ultimately never interfered with the independence of the Fed or became involved in a market manipulation scheme using the taxpayers' money. It seems to me that we're heading into uncharted waters here- a bubble has never been artifically maintained to such an extent as this one has. Where do you think this will lead?

- Steve

(Sun May 10 1998 08:05 - ID#248180)
Trouble in Derivatives Trading ?

LET'S take the case of Lehman Brothers and the punishment they mete out to truth tellers.
Recently, I spent the day at a conference organized by Jim Grant, publisher of the Interest Rate Observer and dean of the permabears.

One of the most interesting speakers was John Succo, a managing director on Lehman's New York equity derivatives volatility trading desk. Succo sketched a useful outline of how these risks were not always well managed by the Street, and what the systemic risks were.

Then he said, "I don't think the people running our firm, our equity floor, have any idea of the things we actually do."

Lehman Brothers own senior management, he said, doesn't "understand the mathematical background, the calculus, the rate of change, the correlation between various assets that we have. But ... they know certain numbers to look at."

Of course, without a background in probability theory, they won't know what those numbers mean.

As the audience laughed, Succo's career ended. When the senior management heard of his comments, they fired him for the unspeakable crime of telling the truth. He had, they said, "undermined the integrity of the firm."

The truth is Lehman is not alone.

"There is no question that senior management at all the major firms has no idea what their derivatives desks are doing," says the managing director of a Lehman competitor. "That's true of our senior management as well."

Personally, I think at a minimum, any director of a firm dealing in derivative instruments should pass a rigorous exam on the mathematical theory and operational practices used on the desks.

But that will have to wait till after the next crash. As Jim Grant told me after the incident, "I think that in the brokerage community there is no constituency for the truth."

Apart from divorce lawyers, it's hard to think of a less well loved profession than stockbrokers. And among broker-dealers, the people who make markets in small over-the-counter stocks are seen as candidates for Post Office wall decoration.

The biggest single reason why the investing public doesn't like broker-dealers is the perception that they serve almost no purpose.

This public hostility, which has been reinforced by scandals such as the Stratton Oakmont IPO scams, has resulted in a much more aggressive attitude on the part of the National Association of Securities Dealers, the dealers' self-regulatory organization and the operator of the Nasdaq trading system.

Even before Frank Zarb took over as CEO, the NASD and its ambitious, growing staff has been much readier to squeeze dealing margins, expel brokers from the industry, and delist stocks of companies that aren't considered big enough.

There can be an element though, of calling in air strikes to destroy a village in order to save it.

You may not need a broker for ideas, but you do need a broker-dealer to make a market in your stocks and buy when you want to sell and sell when you want to buy.

He has to keep stock in inventory, or run a short position to accommodate the market, which is you. That is expensive and can be risky. Given that this is a trade, not a religious calling, you want him to be eager to do it, which means allowing him to make a profit.

I began to look at this problem seriously when I was thinking about warning my readers off an investment in North American Palladium, a small Canadian mining company. But before I could, the company delisted itself because it realized it's too small under new guidelines.

North American Palladium is small, and I think it has uncertain prospects, but what about the willing buyers and sellers of the stock?

With all the cash coming into equities, there is a perception that this market-making role is less important. That perception will change rapidly in a bad market.

Buzzy Geduld, the president of Herzog Heine & Geduld, one of the biggest Nasdaq market makers, said, "There is no question that the new regulations have an impact on liquidity. While Mary Schapiro of the NASD is a great regulator, the decreased margins in market making will contribute to the next crash, making the crash of '87 look like a walk in the park.

The NASD should keep in mind that while we don't have to love market makers, we do need them.

(Sun May 10 1998 08:13 - ID#248180)
Hot News from Colin's Site


Hot News
Microsoft's hidden $10bn 'loss'
In 'The Observer', a UK national newspaper, May 10th: "The boom in rewarding employees with stock options - and the bizarre way they are treated in company accounts - means that some of the US stock market's biggest stars would be showing losses if they reported the full cost of granting options, according to a report."

The report is from consultants Smithers & Co.

Other companies cited are Intel, Hewlett-Packard, Cisco and Dell ( on 1996 results ) . "Warren Buffet believes stock options for top managers should be abolished".

Hot News Items [Updated May 10th]

"There could be a short but sharp stock market fall over the next few weeks" [Neil Thapar, Financial Mail on Sunday ( UK national newspaper ) , May. 10]
"Govt. figures out tomorrow will show UK manufacturing is technically in recession" [The Observer ( UK national newspaper ) , May. 10]

(Sun May 10 1998 08:20 - ID#248180)
@Happy Mothers Day
Happy Mothers day to all Kitco Mothers and to the Mothers of Kitco posters.
Mothers- they are the most precious of all gifts and please consider that they have given you the gift of life. Mine is more precious than all the gold in the world. May God bless them one and all!!
Good night form Down Under.

Steve in TO__A
(Sun May 10 1998 08:32 - ID#287337)
Rhody - chartists
Not all chartists plot straight-line channels. Some plot confidence Limit-like curves called Bollinger Bands. I've never seen anyone publish exponential channels, but someone, somewhere has probably tried them. If you look at the monthly magazine "Technical Analysis of Stocks and Commodities" you'll see all sorts of creative ways to set channels for market data. Very few people have the mathematical understanding or the computer progreamming ability to calculate and plot these channels, so that is why you see a lot of the "take your ruler and . . ." stuff, but you can get some software packages that will do the most popular ones, esp. Bollinger Bands.

I'm afraid chartism doesn't have me convinved yet- I've seen exceptions to straight-line channels, Bollinger Band breakouts, Elliott Wave retracements, and you name it. Back on April 19 at a conference I attended, an Elliott Wave chartist stood up and predicted that there would be one more serious decline in the price of gold within a few weeks ( i.e. right about now : ) before a healthy gold bull market develops and takes prices up to $350 - $400.

Of course, anybody familiar with gold business would have told you that gold always goes down in May or June, with the very occasional exception- so what was our chartist telling us that we didn't already know? The other problem was- this fellow was predicting a p.o.g. low of $255! Well guys if gold gets down there, maybe he'll have convinced me charting can tell me things I didn't know before, and I'll be sure to snap up all kinds of junior mines at $0.10 a share, or whatever they crash to if gold gets that low, but realistically- it just ain't gonna happen.

What was worse- he was predicting that silver would go down in tandem with gold to somewhere in the $4/oz range. This guy puts his charts ahead of common sense! Where is the silver going to come from to take the price down? There is no silver to sell or lease. What moron would lease silver at 5.5%? Who will do futures contracts on a commodity that doesn't have enough supplies to get you out of a short squeeze?

Maybe this guy could convince W. Buffett to sell his silver holdings? That's the only thing I can think of that could knock the price of silver to those levels, apart from some strange new development like a process to extract silver from seawater that only costs $1/oz to operate. But again, I'll stand corrected if something comes out of the blue and does force the p.o.s. down to $4.30, or whatever.

- Steve

(Sun May 10 1998 08:43 - ID#30116)
Steve in TO__A @ 7:59
Can you say, "Japan" ?

(Sun May 10 1998 08:50 - ID#30116)
In general, charts are used to indicate the current direction based on different time frames. They are also useful in indicating change. The change could be something like a drop in volume with prices rising, a definite warning sign there. OTH, rising prices on expanding volume is another thing to look for. These things are apparent on a chart, but not on a 'casual', day to day observation of the tables in a news paper. As for predictions.... I'll leave that to the sooth sayers :- ) ) ......


John Disney__A
(Sun May 10 1998 08:55 - ID#24135)
Why do we put up with Government??
Sorry Squirrel..

1. They have the army
2. They have the police

The Honorable Mozel plans to take them to
Court but..

3. They have the courts

These are only the first 3 reasons.

(Sun May 10 1998 09:14 - ID#153102)
Your observations certainly apply to the federal level of government. But, not, I think, to the need to fill a deficiency of moral virtue among mankind.

Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 09:17 - ID#345321)
I missed some great action here last night.............
the religion string was really good!!! Thanks guys.

(Sun May 10 1998 09:19 - ID#255151)
Steve in TO_A @ 07:59

Looks damn bleak in Indonesia, doesn't it? The IMF has all but assured chaos by their fiscal impositions. And Suharto is prepared to slaughter people to stay in power.

(Sun May 10 1998 09:45 - ID#57232)
Cold Fusion at Los Alamos -- A Little Diversion
All: Cold Fusion Work at Los Alamos. For those of you who may not know, Los Alamos is one of a few large US Government defense labs, now branching out into non-military applications since the end of the cold war. For a lab such as Los Alamos to release anything about cold fusion, it means that a major paradigm shift has occured. Cold fusion has been accepted by the mainstream physics population. I must admit I thought 'cold fusion' was going to be some sort of nuclear catalytic process, and not true cold fusion per se. Now it is apparent that the nuclear catalytic process that occurs when hydrogen or deuterium is 'loaded' into certain crystallin lattices is true cold fusion after all. The key is that the formation of Tritium was detected. Tritium is the product of the nuclear fusion reaction. A corollary to this discovery is that 'cold fusion' is almost certainly occuring naturally. This may be an energy source for the internal heating of the earth, and other planets.

I think we should keep a close watch on the firm called CETI, because they are commercial pioneers in 'cold fusion'.

(Sun May 10 1998 09:53 - ID#288369)
@Mother's Day.................
Everyone has a mother.........even jerks have mothers......but not very good ones. I hope every Kitcoite gets to spend the day with their least be able to talk with them.....mine will be here in two hours to spend a wonderful day along with my wife, the mother of my children. Mothers are the givers of life. Thanks, mom. I will sing for you.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:00 - ID#411149)
John Disney- I did not think of the White Skunk as being a sign at the
time but maybe that wuz jest what it wuz a SIGN.

Of what I don't know? Maybe Durban Deep goin to $125 faster than
I thought!

Tally Ho

(Sun May 10 1998 10:01 - ID#300202)
@white buffalo-new
Anyone care to share with me how much gold in this new beaut????
Thanks in advance. BBL

Tom MacDonald

(Sun May 10 1998 10:02 - ID#300202)
Shud read

(Sun May 10 1998 10:06 - ID#288369) that's BEAUTIFUL!
executable url:

(Sun May 10 1998 10:09 - ID#57232)
E-Mail from Indonesia
sharefin: Thanks for sharing with us your son's experiences in Indonesia. He is getting to see firsthand what can happen during the collapse of a financial system. That exposure is probably worth more than 4 years of a textbook - focused college education.

I always thought economics was boring when I learned about it in college. I don't think that anymore. How are we to travel to the stars if we can't balance our own checkbooks? Unfortunately now the stars must wait. Perhaps the next generation -- your son's?

(Sun May 10 1998 10:12 - ID#288369)
There's a typo on the should read $500. I hope they "fix" this before too many are put in circulation. et tu?

Spud Master
(Sun May 10 1998 10:24 - ID#288235)
@JTF, Los Alamos cold fusion research & palladium....
JTF, thanks for the recent info on palladium research.

I wonder if the "forces" that rule our little world really do see something in "cold fusion" now? Certainly, the US DOD would if only as a way to breed cheap tritium for their bombs.

Can someone post a break down of demand-by-use for Palladium?:

Catalytic converters x%
electronics y%
dental/jewelry z%

Are these REALLY the reason for palladium's rise??

Spud, remotely

(Sun May 10 1998 10:29 - ID#286230)
Kitco Turtle beans simmering on the stove
Get ready the doomsters may be on the verge of being correct. For the last couple of years sages have been predicting gold to go up as it went down. Now it may have bumped on the bottom at about the estimated cost of production--1996 guesses. Recently the calls for global financial collapse have been numerous and frequent here. Asian problems, monetary excesses, US political scandals, illegal US paper money, and of course views from unknown comedians on oil prices, and most recently the EURO. have been seen as potential final causes.

During this period the conventional sources of information--government data and news media have been telling the world that things have been getting better and the stock market booms and people make money hand over fist. Some think all government figures are false and the booming market is prologue to disaster.

Well things are reaching a peak now. Unemployment down to near bottom figures, labour shortages are every where in NA, rates can't go much lower without going negative, former champions of late cycle economics are reappearing, and maybe the doomsters are now getting close to being right. When it gets to the top it can only go down.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:30 - ID#284255)
He's having 6 months break there, on a student exchange program, before he goes into a law firm. Just finished Uni last year.

We've had a few emails from him over the last few months and he's always played their problems down.
When we've sent worried emails to him he's always replied that there was nothing to worry about.

Now he's starting to get concerned.
- Just like Jin is.

Perhaps their problems are only starting to begin?
He seems to think that the next six months look gloomy.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:30 - ID#57232)
The Constitution
jeil: Interesting comments about the writers of the Constitution. I think you are right that most of the individuals involved were highly educated members of the 'upper class', and that their idea of democracy may not have been quite the same as the one that actually evolved. It was better than one would have expected, given ( many of ) the authors. Perhaps the urgency/crisis/spirit of the time made the participants rise above their own more petty goals that they must have had. I have also noticed that human beings are at their best in the face of great danger. Most of us are a passive species, and avoid change until is it thrust upon us.

I do disagree about one item in your fascinating post this AM. And -- that is what would happen if the Declaration of Indpendence and Constitution were both written so the spirit and essence of these great documents could not be corrupted with time.

My point is that, given time, any government becomes corrupted by definition. When power is given to a few -- members of the US government - it is inevitable that over time this power will be used unfairly and unethically. That is a fact of human nature, and cannot be prevented.

What I hope will happen is that a third political party will form in the US, and that this time it will flourish. The strength of this country is not just in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. It is in our rural 'grass roots'. We have the power to change things if we wish, but it will probably not come until we experience times of great adversity, just as it was with our forefathers. Let us hope that the leaders we choose are worthy ones, and lead us back to our roots, and not toward more socialism and less freedom.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:39 - ID#233199)
@Steve in TO
I discovered a long adn reasoned paper tonight explainign exactly where large amounts of silver may me hiding. It is form the Princeton Economics Institute and the Link was posted by some kind soul earlier this AM

I will gladly e-mail the three part piece or you may find it at

It's the three part article on silver somewhere on the site; sorry I don't have the exactt URL.

It was enough to make me think really seriously about backing out fo my silver position in the next few days. Now I'm scared.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:39 - ID#57232)
Logging off -- chores
SpudMaster: I suspect that there is little cold fusion related demand for palladium and platinum, or other implicated elements. Unless someone knows already which elements are best, and is secretly buying up all supplies of same.

I doubt that even if speculators are buying large quantities of palladium or platinum for such purposes, that they will have a long term success. The reason for my doubt is that a reliable commercial process for cold fusion must be set up. That is probably some years into the future.

When that commercial process becomes the clear winner, then the elements used as catalysts will be in high demand. We should watch CETI very closely, and see what they are doing, and how many of those cold fusion beads they are making. I know their process is propietary, so it may be hard to determine what they are using. But -- they do have to buy the raw materials from someone, don't they?

(Sun May 10 1998 10:40 - ID#233199)
@Steve in TO

My e-mail :

(Sun May 10 1998 10:43 - ID#411149)
For some reason I can't get The Captains May 8 update. It keeps
comming up May 1 even after many reloads, anybody havin the same

Tally Ho

(Sun May 10 1998 10:54 - ID#317193)
Page says it will be updated before tomorrow due to time needed to get out latest issue.


(Sun May 10 1998 10:55 - ID#228128)
John Disney: Whats happening to the Durban Deep float
John could you update us on whats happening to the number of shares outstanding in Durban Deep. With all the recent issues of shares, preferred stock, options at 60 dollars, etc. I'm a bit confused as to what it all means. Thanks.

(Sun May 10 1998 10:56 - ID#31868)
Tried the site, could not find the article on silver. Where did they say all the "hidden" silver was? Thanks.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:00 - ID#411149)
TYoung- Thanks, hard to get through Sunday without my Privateer

Tally Ho

(Sun May 10 1998 11:18 - ID#266105)
@shuffle off to white buffalo

(Sun May 10 1998 11:19 - ID#288369)
@Listening to native american music awards show..........while watching Kitco.......
Broadcast utilizing RealAudioPlayer 5.0, downloadable at site, Radio Free Santa Fe, my record company ( lunacy ) 's entry: Thon Gya is in the competition.........D. Copenhaver/Yogi Bread... cool background music.... url: Go to "spinning now" both buttons Hey, figure it's way cool...the future of musac......

(Sun May 10 1998 11:36 - ID#266105)
@Harmony dilution for 'big push'

Harmony does not have an abundance of cash
to see out large transactions and said it would
not pay dividends, preferring instead to beef up
cash reserves - possibly to R200m.

Abbot said Harmony would authorise
45-million shares to add to its unissued
25-million shares. At a current share price of
R26,60, the worth of Harmony's total unissued
shares is about R1,9bn.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:37 - ID#420116)
Tax Freedom Day May 10,1998 - Let's party . .

Steady economic growth and a progressive tax system have
combined to propel Tax Freedom Day to another new record
this year: May 10, one day later than last year.
The Tax Foundation projects that Americans on average will
have to work 129 days to pay off their total tax bill this
year, only earning their "tax freedom" on the 130th day.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:37 - ID#341214)
tolerant1: try here for the articles on silver. Click on the metals button.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:42 - ID#256326)
rhody & lines
It is quite possible that several hundred years of technical analysis using trendlines and colorfully named price formations--all summarized brilliantly in Edwards and Magee ( TA of Stock Trends ) --is totally incorrect. Since all price analysts used to begin their studies with this work or predecessors, it could be a self-reinforcing culture much like the days when everyone took catechism. We might see trendlines as being significant because, well, we learned that that are, and we see them because we know they are there.

A slight chink in the plaster holding this together was the rise of semilog charting ( Why don't they ever chart time logarithmically? ) I have always suspected semilog charting arose when chart paper was in short supply during a war or inflationary period. ( Redundant? ) The net result of semilog is something akin to those pictures of the world seen through the eyes of a New Yorker, wherein except for a few spots like LA and Paris, the world largely ends outside the upper East Side and certainly at the Hudson River.

On the several charting programs I have there are at least six different banding techniques from Boillinger to Keltner and some of those you mention. Then there are the myriad statistical chanelling methods.

And yet, as APH and others have maintained, it is amazing how often the simple straight edge applied to actual ( non-log ) prices really works. Ditto for Gann angles which the master himself regarded as "moving averages" and which they truly are. ( In fact if you follow a trend, you will see that exponential moving averages--the 18 bar a favorite--very quickly become linear and track simple trendlines.

There are very successful investors and traders who don't own a ruler, but when I see the greats explaining a point on the chat sites and elsewhere, both trendlines and moving averages are always on their charts even if they don't discuss them. They are really part of what Oldman calls the Forrest Gump approach to trading. They work.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:45 - ID#26793)
China releases elderly Catholic Bishop but young rights activist disappears.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:53 - ID#26793)
LBMA silver delivery news and more.

(Sun May 10 1998 11:58 - ID#31868)
fundaMETAList - I thank ya.
Gulp to ya. Namaste'

(Sun May 10 1998 12:00 - ID#31868)
On silver, I do not believe that Warren bought all that silver knowing that the
price was set to collapse. I say silver sky-rockets in the next several months.

(Sun May 10 1998 12:03 - ID#288369)
@T#1.......this radio free santa fe............
has to be your Shaman's favorite radio gig........shaman market is real big....uh huh. This is what they are talking about?....holy, medicine people on the radio...ohmy! hit the peyote button, ohmy.

(Sun May 10 1998 12:15 - ID#256326)
my town, love it or live it...; )

(Sun May 10 1998 12:16 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R I kinda figured something was up when that new Shaman installed a
sattelite on his hut. Peyote is dispensed in five paks ( five paks per week ) for free. Tequila is piped into all the huts along with fresh water. Electricity is powered from the movement of the tequila tap handles.

We have so much excess electricity we sell off the extra to LILCO.

(Sun May 10 1998 12:39 - ID#206358)

It's full moon here..beautiful,WESAK DAY!Thousands of buddhists celebrated the day of enlightment,birth and nibana of LORD BUDDHA.

Last nite ( 10/may ) ,read some chinese news from HONGKONG and TAIWAN reported that TIGER FUND bought up 4 bils u.s 5 years bond in HONGKONG market.They will speculate the HONGKONG dollars very soon,probably in a week or two.This been followed by few smaller funds too!In this case,the REMINBI will be troubles too! ( i'll try to find the news through english version,but FAILED! ) ...not sure...!The news i got was from REUTERS!In this case,if ever the attack turn up again,i wonder how long the asia countries can stand!THE ECONOMY CRISIS TURN TO SOSIAL CRISIS NOW!

In Philipine,30 over peoples been killed this two days.The elections start tommorrow...TENSE.....but undercontrol!
Thailand..ok!Malaysia...under current!Singapore in deep water,too close to fire....INDONESIA!
Haze,heat...dry season,kalimantan 80000 habitats hunger..mindanao food!Nearly 3 months,in my area in dry...all agriculture ..veg,tobacco...finished!The dams water dropped!

Sorry for so many negative news from here!Life goes on!

take care!


(Sun May 10 1998 12:41 - ID#22956)
*This is interesting*
I read these dudes markets reports and I have never seen someone write about platinum calls before. Never. Hmmm. It makes me wonder. I do like the stochastics here. It hasn't been in this area since late Feb. GO PLAT. The weeks to follow will show us the true nature of the white precious.......uh huh. w/w for my ROI

more later on the nature of the GOLDen brew......yes.

(Sun May 10 1998 12:44 - ID#342315)
Aurator re assay
Couple of questions first- where do you live and what do you wan to assay? Reason is there are different methods for different things. The presence can be detected by a simple test with a kit that lets you scrape the article on a special stone and then put a drop of acid there. The karat can be loosely determined by the color of the result. If the article is rock, the process is rather involved, but not too complicated. It depends on how close you want to get the fine content. In USA there are many sources of testing kits and chemicals for this work. Let me know and I'll do my best. Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 12:45 - ID#228128)
the article posted by 2bro2b indicates that Harmony has 25 million unissued shares to which it plans to add 45 million more for a total of 70 million shares. Harmony already has 49.04 million shares issued according to Polarbear's article over at golden-eagle. So, this means that Harmony may eventually have up to 119 million shares issued. So far they have 70 million ozs. of reserves. I hope that they get something in return for all these shares.

(Sun May 10 1998 12:59 - ID#210235)
@News source
Found yet another ( even better ) way to track news, companies, stocks.
Nice charts. A personalized stock ticker running down the bottom of the screen. And it's free. Occasionally see an ad.

Happy Mother's Day!

Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 13:01 - ID#345321)
JIN and Sharefin...........
Your postings tell it all in Indonesia. Thanks

(Sun May 10 1998 13:09 - ID#286279)
Happy Day!

(Sun May 10 1998 13:19 - ID#194311)
Neither yes nor no...the art of doublespeak
STOCKHOLM - Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger
said it was difficult to see how the European economic and
monetary union ( EMU ) could succeed but added it was even more
difficult to imagine that failure would be tolerated.

(Sun May 10 1998 13:27 - ID#255151)
Oh Henry

Hey Kissinger, what the H*ll are you saying. Is the EMU going to fly or not.

(Sun May 10 1998 13:37 - ID#238295)
Selby turning bearish on the financial markets. This is like Vronsky turning bearish on gold. The times they are a changin!

With regard to Indonesia I opined some time ago that the US financial elite would turn on Suharto when he no longer obeyed orders and/or lost credibility with his subjects. Hero one day, demon the next.

Well it does seem to be playing out this way. The fact that this man was responsible for slaughtering a million people in the coup that brought him to power was no problem for the powers that be. But if he tries to screw the international bankers -- they turn on him like a pack of dogs.

(Sun May 10 1998 13:48 - ID#359316)
Is Henry still kissing her?
Is not Kissinger simply saying "The Euro will not be allowed to fail"?

(Sun May 10 1998 13:55 - ID#255151)
try again

Kissinger says it's "difficult to see how it ( the EMU ) could succeed." This EURO thing is getting less clear by the day.

(Sun May 10 1998 13:59 - ID#31868)
Henry Kissinger
One of the best pie holes money can buy.

Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 14:01 - ID#345321)
Auric - the Euro will succeed, you can take that to the bank.
Kissinger is a politician. His doublespeak only fools the masses.

(Sun May 10 1998 14:02 - ID#194311)
inside word...they don't have a clue what's happening
Egypt's FM says G15 has no miracle cures for economic crisis
Followup-To: biz.clarinet.sample

CAIRO, May 10 ( AFP ) - Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Mussa warned
Sunday that this week's summit of the Group of 15 developing nations
will not come up with miracle cures for the economic turmoil
afflicting many members.
"We are not expecting any magic formulas at the end of the
meetings, but there will be a better understanding of the causes ( of
the economic crisis ) ," Mussa said in an interview to be broadcast on
Egyptian television station Nile TV.
Mussa said G15 was still far from finding any mechanisms to
ensure that the economic crisis engulfing Asia would not be
repeated. Currency collapses, bankruptcies and stock market crashes
have swept across Asian countries since late last year, often due to
a wave of defaulting on private debts.
Leaders from the G15 -- which actually has 16 members after
Kenya joined last year -- are meeting for three days from Monday to
discuss boosting trade and opening a dialogue with developed
northern hemisphere countries as well as the Asian crisis.

Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 14:04 - ID#345321)
Tolerant1 - What's that "sucking sound" I hear?????
Could it be Indonesia going down the sh*tter, followed by Japan and the US? The EMU will be the first to rise from the ashes, IMHO.

(Sun May 10 1998 14:10 - ID#286230)
Kitco Turtle beans are great
Old Gold: I think vronsky knows more about gold than I will ever know there is to know about gold --or the finacial markets. But I know good beans when I taste them.

(Sun May 10 1998 14:11 - ID#194311)
Finally...US stops pandering to the Jews (Israel)
Chance of going to peace
summit 'is zero'


ISRAEL and the United States appeared set
on a diplomatic collision course last night
after Israel rejected American efforts to
persuade it to comply with conditions to
attend Monday's proposed three-way summit
in Washington.

Hours after the first round of talks here
between Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli
Prime Minister, and Dennis Ross, the newly
arrived US peace envoy, David Bar-Illan, the
communications director for Mr Netanyahu,
said: "The chances of our being there on
Monday are nil."

The fate of the American initiative remained
in doubt as Palestinian officials claimed to
have rejected an Israeli demand to postpone
the proposed summit, which would have been
headed by President Clinton, by a week to
May 18. Israeli press reports claimed that the
postponement had been agreed by the US.

(Sun May 10 1998 14:15 - ID#255151)
Mr. Mick

Am interested in hearing the pro-EURO side of the debate. My take is this--the only way the EURO succeeds is by Gold backing. No unverifiable reserves at 10% to 20% BS. I mean Gold-backed, like the SDR Franc. Otherwise, the EMU is just a dumbed down D-Mark.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 10 1998 14:17 - ID#24135)
for IDT
The only reason for the capital increase is to add
resources and capacity. They are after Evander ..
Evander ( the old Kinross and winkelhaak mines ) has 31
mill oz in resources and a capacity of
585,000 oz /year .. Harmony itself only does about
770,000 ounces .. The share increase would be for
this .. They would almost double their capacity
Plus and add almost 50 % to their reserves.
They will get their money's worth or they wont
do it.

Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 14:22 - ID#345321)
Tolerant1 - Rumor has it this was Camdessus........!!???...........
Mauled Body Found in Tiger Cage

EAST LONDON, South Africa ( AP ) -- Cleaners attending to tigers

at a zoo Sunday morning found the mauled body of a man in their


Staffers at the Queens Park Zoo in this eastern city were speculating

the unidentified man may have been drunk or mentally unstable and

had climbed into the tigers' cage overnight, said zoo curator Nico


Mr. Mick
(Sun May 10 1998 14:25 - ID#345321)
Auric - you are exactly right..............
either the Euro is gold-backed or it fails. Period, end of story.

(Sun May 10 1998 14:25 - ID#31868)
Mr. Mick 14:22
The truth will be known if the Tigers get ill and throw up for a few days. One can only hope...

Gulp to ya.


(Sun May 10 1998 14:28 - ID#286230)
EURO's Fate
Viewed from a slightly different perspective--what would be the fate of the US economy if each of the 50 states had there own currency which were related to each other through their individual values Vs the D Mark?

(Sun May 10 1998 14:35 - ID#255151)
Mr. Mick

Either way, a wild ride is just ahead, eh! :- ) Go Gold!

John Disney__A
(Sun May 10 1998 14:44 - ID#24135)
You must be kidding
I think you are kidding me yes .. Dilution ??
Deeps will repay a loan to Randgold with some new stock.
They get money for stock. Thats not dilution.
Options apply when price rises to striking
price .. say 60 rand .. then if you PAY company 60
rand you get a new share of stock .. company gets money
they issue stock .. Company value per share stays same.
On preference shares .. Preferred shares now pay holders
20 % div. new deal is convert pref shares to common
plus an option . No of shares stays same .. pref switches
to common .. and company saves 20 per cent div payment.
Please think about that and explain your problem
with numbers if you are not really having me on.

(Sun May 10 1998 15:13 - ID#329186)
Auric ID 255151 the Euro...?
Can't find anything to support the "Euro" however John Redwood has written in the Financial Mail pointing out that the euro has a problem with its legitimacy.he goes on to point out that the "european court will push it through. However "there could be good oportunities for sharp lawyers and much anger from disgruntled savers".

The most outstanding feature about the euro is the Timing ie the clash with Y2K ~ with gold conspiracy theories ~ it could have been possible to think this was deliberate, however I can see no advantage have I missed something?

Company budgets are being hit with having to allocate resources for both Y2K and euro conversion ( one with an imoveable deadline and the other that could have waited )

The euro is political as opposed to being an economic benefit but the so called leaders not their country folk have done all they can to bulldoze this into being. to keep the european gravy train rolling.

To enhance the euro it will need GOLD backing and not just reserves ( the us have gold reserves )

Y2K will probably end up brining the worst out in people and there will be an old fashioned European squabble.

Go Gold get physical ( ps can't get coins locally at the moment0


(Sun May 10 1998 15:18 - ID#255284)
chas your 12:44
Thank you for your reply. I live in New Zealand. I wish to assay
( a ) 2 x chains, top determine whether they are 18 or 22K
( b ) a coin I picked up over weekend. I first suspected it is a repro, and paid next to nothing for it in a flea market, but having another look at it, I am not sure.It may be the real McCoy.
Would appreciate advice on names of kits, and any info you can supply

(Sun May 10 1998 15:25 - ID#359316)
Have you tried Baird & Co ( )
- they have a shop at 24 St. Cross St, London EC1N 8UH
Tel./Fax 0171 831 2838

(Sun May 10 1998 15:34 - ID#27499)
Krugman on Japan
Sort of thing not supposed to happen!

"The purpose of this paper is to show that the liquidity trap is a real issue - that in a model that dots its microeconomic i's and crosses its intertemporal t's something that is very much like the Hicksian liquidity trap can indeed arise. Moreover, the conditions under which that trap emerges correspond, in at least a rough way, to some features of the real Japanese economy. To preview the conclusions briefly: in a country with poor long-run growth prospects - for example, because of unfavorable demographic trends - the short-term real interest rate that would be needed to match saving and investment may well be negative; since nominal interest rates cannot be negative, the country therefore "needs" expected inflation. If prices were perfectly flexible, the economy would get the inflation it needs, regardless of monetary policy - if necessary by deflating now so that prices can rise in the future. But if current prices are not downwardly flexible, and the public expects price stability in the long run, the economy cannot get the expected inflation it needs; and in that situation the economy finds itself in a slump against which short-run monetary expansion, no matter how large, is ineffective.

If this stylized analysis bears any resemblance to the real problem facing Japan, the policy implications are radical. Structural reforms that raise the long-run growth rate ( or relax non-price credit constraints ) might alleviate the problem; so might deficit-financed government spending. But the simplest way out of the slump is to give the economy the inflationary expectations it needs. This means that the central bank must make a credible commitment to engage in what would in other contexts be regarded as irresponsible monetary policy - that is, convince the private sector that it will not reverse its current monetary expansion when prices begin to rise!"

For the full story go to

(Sun May 10 1998 15:39 - ID#286234)
Do you know about Gif Wizard??? It's supposed to make your site run MUCH faster.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:08 - ID#286234)
I like Pointcast but note this warning. Don't shut down your computer while Pointcast is downloading. This caused me BIG problems once a long time ago. Downloading can easily proceed unnoticed when Pcast is minimized. They may have fixed this bug by now, but I wouldn't push your luck.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:09 - ID#342315)
Aurator re assay
For coins and jewelry, the touchstone method is a quick and easy way to get close to the fine content. This looks like what you need. They are sold as a kit and shouldn't be too expensive. I will look up the sources I have and relay to you. If NZ does not have them, Probably Australia does. In any case will be back in a while. Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 16:12 - ID#26793)
@JIN: China and HK still say they will not devalue. (May7th)

(Sun May 10 1998 16:13 - ID#342315)
Trinovant re yours on Baird
Are you familiar with this outfit? I got your reference and would appreciate any additiona info re them you may have. Thanx, Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 16:17 - ID#290118)
Jeil on Sun May 10 1998 02:19 wrote much on the Constitution which needs replied to:

1 ) No need to ransack the house for a copy of the founding papers - Any World Almanac will do. Better yet - go to this site:


( since this site mangles the URL, I split it in two )

You can find the Declaration of Independence URL in my post of May 10 1998 00:16. The entire text of Thomas Paines Common Sense is at


( since this site mangles the URL, I split it in two )

You need only go to and search for the word strings Declaration of Independence and you shall find many sites.

The Library of Congress

is also a good place to look.

The Project Bartleby Archive at

is a very comprehensive source- again just type in Jefferson and hit the search button. You will find enough to provide rebuttal to any lamebrained subsversive liberal traitor. Just read the founder words and you will be enlightened beyond belief.

As to your statement: Actually, I have my doubts about the quality of these people in spite of my public school indoctrination. My guess as to the character of most of them is that they were collectivist jerks, just as are most who are attracted to government. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!

Hamilton needed restraint but Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Franklin et al had just gone through a war to get rid of an oppressive government. These men did not in any way want a strong Federal government. They intended to cripple such a government from the beginning. Read the Declaration of Independence and the writings of Jefferson and the others! Then maybe you shall never again make such a statement that belies your ignorance.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:21 - ID#255151)
CPO@AU @ 15:13

Yeah, this EURO is as much a political currency as an economic one. Looks soft from the get go and ripe for attack. Especially when Europe wakes up about Y2K.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:29 - ID#290118)
DISNEY - they have less than they know
John Disney on Sun May 10 1998 08:55 wrote:
1. They have the army
2. They have the police.
3. They have the courts.

Yes the have item #3.
But they do not have the entirety of #1 & #2.
And they do not have the enlighted armed populace who number meany.

This is similar to the situation when we declared independence and went to war with the largest military force in the world - and we won.

I have it from reliable sources that our military is not at all happy with the current state of undemocratic affairs. If ordered to shoot Americans there will be widespread desertion. Most will be turncoats. Then there are tens of thousands of Vietnam Vets ( many of whom are ex-special forces ) . I also have it from reliable sources that there is no such person as an ex-Marine.

If push comes to shove - the Klintonistas or any World Order successors will NOT be able to conquer America. They may have the cities. But rural is and always will be ours. They will have to nuke us all to conquer us and they will then inherit a sterile blasted "scorched earth".
Nuff said.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:38 - ID#412286)
The charts show gold copper and silver all at pivot points. Martin Armstrong called for a gold bottom in June followed by a bull to 1200-10000 by 2003. Looks on target. Delay in Euro gold announcement looks like we may be in for one last Pro US downturn in the metals ala Wall St. Clinton and Rubin. Looks like this will be the last. BYE BYE dollar developing. I loved the employment report described as "bizarre" by Merrill's Steinberg. He should smarten up and go long before every employment report as it is designed for confidence building not accuracy. J. Goebbels you have met your match. The bigger the lie and the longer you tell it the more it will be believed.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:38 - ID#290118)
We often lose sight that this forum is to be on GOLD
In the scenario described below; ( and the "meany" may have been a telling slip )
GOLD and SILVER will be the medium of exchange.
Paper stocks and computer printouts of futures, etc. will be worthless.
We will trade with gold dust, chunks of coins, and any other form of Gold. Junk silver coins will come out of hiding.
To get the POG up for today's concerns we must get small denominations of gold into as many hands as possible. This in turn will help bring about a defacto gold standard. The Euro/Yen/Dollar tri-partite world order nuts can try to impose paper. But if enough people hold small tradeable forms of GOLD and SILVER there WILL BE a substantial underground economy based on GOLD and SILVER.
And Kitcoites will be happy because such a demand for these PMs will drive their real purchasing value up to a thousand gallons of gasoline per ounce troy.

(Sun May 10 1998 16:58 - ID#290118)
Come the chaos, blame the geeks!
Sharefin: That statement holds much to be feared.
There have been many future scenarios written that explore the ramifications of just that outcome. Given enough pain, suffering and death to be blamed on technology run amok then the Luddite philosophy will prevail. Any of us caught owning, or worse, actually operating a computer will be shot ( after torture and inquisition by zealots ) .
There is much to be feared in a wholesale turning back to dark ages where geeks and intellectuals ( or anyone who questions the one true faith ) will be persecuted, purged and either executed or exhiled.
The remote mountain redoubt that Ayn Rand gave to John Gault in ATLAS SHRUGGED is looking better and better.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:05 - ID#300202)
For AllRe: Push Technology
Have tried Point Cast on my Mac ( Performa ) . Always causes H.D. problems.
My own personal experience has been bettered with After Dark Online.
Mother's Day-early wine-pickin' up from Stud-i-o, crankin up Buddy Guy
& Johnny Laing while competing with wife's Beethoven. Bulls & Bears.
Mustang Sally.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:08 - ID#200235)
Does anyone know the opening POG in the ASIAN MKTS for 5 -ll-98 or are they open at this early hour. Any information appreciated.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:12 - ID#342315)
CPO@AU, SDRer et al
Enlightening post ( @15:13 ) . What I'm trying to find out is what is gold "backing"? Is it convertibility or just some gold in "the house"? So far from many posts, I can't see that just backing is any different than what we have with the US$. If you can see more specific relationship here, I would appreciate your comments. Thanx, Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 17:14 - ID#194311)
Gringo with the lingo
web o' lies grows....

how can on on hand Microsoft does NOT have a monopolistic position

yet if they are stopped the WHOLE US economy will be affected...

sounds like a monopoly to me? me stupid.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:24 - ID#342315)
Aurator re touchstone kit
"somebody" cleaned up and I can't find my product info source. I'll call around tomorrow and get the best price. Will reply then. Sorry, Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 17:24 - ID#215208)
Straight lines
rhody - You will notice the charts I use are semilog. A straight line on a semilog chart would look exponential on a linear chart. I think semilog charts are preferred because a given vertical distance on a semilog chart defines a fixed % change. So a straight line represents a fixed % change over a given period. I think most businesses, as well as investors, think in terms of percentages. "Our business has grown at a 10% annual rate." "My goal is to earn 15% per year on my investments." "I expect the price of gold to increase at a rate of 20% per year for the next thre years." These statements translate to straight lines on a semilog chart.

Obviously straight lines don't accurately define all trends, etc. But they are easiest to draw.

If you don't like them, draw your own curved ones.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:31 - ID#255151)
Golden Oldies

Haven't heard from ANOTHER for awhile. He seemed pretty confident of a Gold/EURO link, at least as I understood his posts. Wonder if his buddies got overruled?

(Sun May 10 1998 17:40 - ID#288295)
chas, aurator @ Gold testing kit
Here's a test kit:

(Sun May 10 1998 17:41 - ID#257136)
squirel: Yer a man after me own heart!! RE: Yours of 16:29.
Right now is one of those times I wish I was 45 or 50 or even 55 again, just so I can participate actively in the forthcoming olympic contest against the Elitists and their federales and other troops.

Perhaps the most meaningful thing I can do is to "warn all those I care about".
And, of course, keep my powder dry and my ears and eyes wide.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:42 - ID#228128)
John Disney: who is putting who on
When a company issues new shares for money, I define that as dilution. I'm more familiar with N. American mining companies who issue new shares for money in what they call private placements. Where there were , for example, 25 million shares in the company and they issue 5 million more shares in a private placement, there will eventually become 30 million shares of common stock. Sounds like Durban Deep is doing the same or perhaps I misunderstand what shares for money means in S.A.. You can believe though, I have no problems with math and it was a serious question.

(Sun May 10 1998 17:57 - ID#228128)
John Disney_A
Let me put the question to you another way. When they get through not diluting the Durban Deep Stock, how may shares outstandiing will there be.

(Sun May 10 1998 18:18 - ID#344259)
Silverbaron re mineral site
Thanx for this site. It looks a little pricy, but I know how this stuff has moved in the last 20 years or so. Will be back to you. Thanx, Charlie

(Sun May 10 1998 18:24 - ID#290118)
COMMITTMENT to FREEDOM and PATRIOTISM will soon be measured by
How well prepared you and your neighbors and friends are.
Being one of our Elders may physically prevent you from participating in the running game. But sentries with eyes and ears are needed - be they sleuths prowling this Net or lone figures watching a mountain pass.
Laying in stockpiles of spendable quantities of GOLD and SILVER may enable you to become a banker for a small post-crash community. As many have said - there just is not enough in the hands of common folk for Gold to be a medium of exchange. Even Silver may be hard pressed to do the service of replacing all the fiat script in circulation in a small community. Without GOLD and SILVER we may have to fall back on trade based on rifle cartridges, salt, spices and cans of tuna. But trade we will! There is much you can do to help. Take heart and take care!

(Sun May 10 1998 18:24 - ID#210127)

Hey have email...

go gold...

(Sun May 10 1998 18:24 - ID#288295)
Yes - I thought a little pricey also. Perhaps easier for just a couple pieces to take them to a jeweler who already has a kit.

(Sun May 10 1998 18:31 - ID#432227)
Elliot waves and gold
I don't understand Elliot Wave and related analyses but it is interesting that shortly after I read Joseph M. Miller's article in the golden-eagle site, predicting gold to rise to min. $1500/oz, I stumbled across another, similar article. This one was in a paper I picked up at the grocery store, called "Canadian Miner" ( billed as Canada's global mining newspaper, but focuses on Canada's North and the creation and potential of Nunavut ) . The article was by Percy D. Spilling, of CM Oliver, who using different interpretations, predicts a coming gold bull to last at least until 2014, and a gold price of $1600/oz.
It is an interesting article, but over my head.
Anyone in Kitco want to put in their two cent's worth?

(Sun May 10 1998 18:38 - ID#329186)
Trinovant message @15:25
Many thanks for the address the site is just what i am looking for

go gold


(Sun May 10 1998 18:40 - ID#290118)
a.j. in my thoughts below
Hold your GOLD in small "denominations" such as 1/10oz or 1/4 oz Maple Leafs, Eagles, etc. There will be many such as fellow Kitcoites who have 1oz coins, 5oz bars, etc. who will find themselves unwilling to cut them up and unable to spend them except for very large purchases. Anyone holding smaller coins {or wafers of a few grains such as those by chas - Fri May 08 1998 18:24} will render a valuable service by exchanging them for the larger stuff. Same goes for having substantial quantities of junk silver coins which could be exchanged for unwieldy large Gold coins.

(Sun May 10 1998 18:40 - ID#344259)
Silverbaron re the kit
Absolutely. I'll make sure Aurator knows

(Sun May 10 1998 18:41 - ID#17796)
The Mints
Someone else do some math for me please. The Canadian mint is selling the new White Buffalo coin for $$409.95. It's 17.135 grams with 91.67% gold and the rest silver. I think I know that 31.10348 grams = one troy ounce. I think I also know what 8+ grams of silver is worth-not much right now.

I assume the price is in Canadian dollars. I've heard gold in US dollars is around $300. Somebody tell me that the mints are not pricing their coins differently as of late.

You got me folks. Watch out for gold and silver-not this coming week or next but soon,
very soon.

Good investing to you all, or is that good gambling.


(Sun May 10 1998 18:44 - ID#17796)
Sorry-that's 1+ grams of silver

(Sun May 10 1998 18:44 - ID#258142)
Some old new about EURO
Just reviewed Ecofin minutes May 1 -3: ECB reserve ( and Gold share in it ) was not in the agenda at all. Actually, that what I wrote about a month ago - they will not going to discuss it in May, at least on public. So, there is no "delay". Structure of reserve will be defined by ECB. Now there is no ECB yet. On May 13 there will be Euro Parliament hearing, EP supposed to give an advise regarding the board of ECB. If advise will be positive ( and that is not definite ) , then ECB will obtain a legal status, and Duisenberg will in practice become first president of ECB. Then it will be his duty to setup reserve of ECB. We can not expect any announcements about Gold share in reserve till at least June. It may come even later.

(Sun May 10 1998 18:45 - ID#258142)
new = news

(Sun May 10 1998 18:46 - ID#344259)
Aurator re testing
If you're following posts, check Silverbaron and mine. Otherwise, you might check a respected jewelr to test the gold. Usually no cost. It may be best to email me at I'll reply with what I find tomorrow. Good luck, Charlie

Bill Buckler
(Sun May 10 1998 18:50 - ID#256381)
Gold in Asia
After three days of blistering my keyboard, finally got the latest issue out and the gold commentary posted. To the person who asked when Gold trading starts in Asia, in about an hour from now.

FWIW, apparently, Clinton is going to have a chat with Chancellor Kohl on his way to the G-7 Heads of State summit this weekend. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that one.

(Sun May 10 1998 18:52 - ID#22956)
good reading from our buddy...OK

......use the info wisely ;- )



(Sun May 10 1998 18:52 - ID#329186)
Chas(CPO@AU,SDR et al id 342315)
Gold backing as I understand it would mean a country wishing to expand its money supply/credit would have to purchase & hold ( not loan out ) the equivalent ( or % if % based ) this may be over simplified

gold reserves as in ther US G the kitty = x billion US $ and is made up of various currencies & % Gold ( which in the case of the US is undervalued anyway )

As the Euro is political to have it backed to any degree by Gold would be akin to taking a platinum card away from a lottery winner

Go gold


(Sun May 10 1998 19:05 - ID#347235)
I think you are wrong on that one! I then Bibi found his cojones and told ol'slick to kiss his tuchas.

(Sun May 10 1998 19:27 - ID#284235)
"The Meaning of Money"
To Squirrel re 16:58. Your mention of Ayn Rand sent me searching my files for the following from Atlas Shrugged - Excerpt from the speech by Francisco d'Anconia entitled" "The Meaning of Money."

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold has an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs; upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn'."

Sound familiar? Fummer.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:04 - ID#254201)
I was sent this reprint on the psychology of trading. It's not about gold but investing in general.

The Psychology of Investing
by Richard Geist, Ph.D.

( Dr. Geist is editor and publisher of "Richard Geist's Strategic Investing",
and is founder of the annual Psychology of Investing symposia at Harvard
University. He is a member of the Board of Directors of the non-profit
Investors Research Institute, Inc., sponsors of IR/x: Investor Relations
Xchange. At the recent Public Company Summit '98 at the Orlando Money Show,
Dr. Geist discussed with attending CEOs, CFOs and IR Executives the
underlying psychological and sociological reasons that individuals hold or
trade microcap and other stocks.

Investing decisions are largely activated by narcissistic motives.

What I mean by that is that an individual's motives for buying and selling
micro-cap stocks transcend purely monetary gains and are largely in the
service of sustaining one's sense of self: enhancing one's self esteem,
strengthening one's confidence and security, and increasing one's feeling of
well being.

While it is true that increasing one's personal net worth is the pragmatic
result of successful investing, the emotional connotations of money are what
gives investing its personal meaning.

For some, money represents the achievement of dreams, hopes, and desires;
for others, money represents power and control; for yet others it represents
confirmation of intelligence, judgement, creativity, self esteem, ambition,
achievement, competitive victory. We could spend hours delineating the many
meanings of money, but the bottom line is that there is a difference,
psychologically, between the motivation for investing in general and the
motivation for buying and selling micro-cap stocks.

What makes people invest is intimately related to money; what makes
individuals buy and sell micro-cap stocks is not found in the dictionary
definition of monetary wealth. Rather it is found in the nature of the
psychological cement that holds one's self together. ( Correspondingly,
creative entrepreneurs who found small companies usually do so for reasons
which also transcend the accumulation of wealth ) .

If investors buy and sell stock based on psychological need, there are
several parameters that become important for companies to understand when
trying to recruit and retain investors:

1 ) how investing effects one's sense of self;

2 ) the psychological factors that characterize the kind of investors
micro-cap companies should seek;

3 ) understanding the psychological relationship between micro-cap companies
and investors; and

4 ) understanding the implications of that relationship when structuring
investor relations programs.

Before delving into these three issues, let's spend a few moments reviewing
the psychological concept of what I call the individual's healthy sense of
self and its relationship to the companies one buys and sells.

The Self--Some Definitions

The individual's cohesive self is the core of one's personality. While
difficult to define, the self generally refers to one's subjective ways of
experiencing oneself. We can't see or feel the self, but when one's self is
functioning cohesively ( when all the parts remained glued together ) we
experience certain qualities: a sense of well being, a feeling of wholeness,
aliveness, vitality; a stable sense of self esteem; a continuity in time
and space ( if we move to a job in another part of the country, our self
esteem goes with us ) ; a sense of mind -body unity where we don't experience
too many psychosomatic symptoms; a feeling of efficacy, the capacity to have
an impact on some one or some thing.

The evolution of this cohesive self requires that one grow up in an
environment in which significant others are empathically attuned to one's
needs. While such empathic responsiveness is most important early in life,
the necessity for its continuing presence is also felt, however more
distantly and abstractly, throughout adulthood. In other words, the
experience of oneself as empowered, self confident and vital, crucial
ingredients for the investor, can be enhanced or disrupted throughout life;
for the state of the self does depend in part on relationships with
significant others or abstract concepts that provide self sustenance.

The Theory of Self and Investing

Several decades of research suggests that individuals maintain their sense
of self via three support systems which are important from birth until
death: mirroring, idealizing, and partnering. Mirroring refers to the
experience of having one's skills, talents, and vitality confirmed and
validated. Idealizing refers to the experiences of security evoked when
allowed to share in the knowledge, power, calmness, organization, and ideals
of others.

Partnering refers to experiencing the sustaining effect of human sameness--a
sense of "we-ness" which fosters a feeling of belonging to an important
group or team tht shares the use of similar skills, tools, or beliefs.
Investors use the market, and specifically the micro-cap companies they
invest in, to serve all of these functions in a variety of productive and
unproductive ways.

For example, when we make a decision to invest in a company, we are holding
up our skills and judgement for proud confirmation and validation. When we
achieve investment success, we experience pride and excitement and normal
grandiosity about our decisions. When we encounter failure, most of us
experience a sense of humiliation, the experience of having our mistakes
exposed to public or private scrutiny. This is one reason why Wall Street
analysts would rather fail by recommending stocks that everyone else
recommends than pick out of favor stocks and lose--and one of several
reasons why they rarely write about micro-cap stocks.

When we make a decision to invest in a company, we feel as though we're
sharing in management's power, organization, and knowledge. We tell friends
of the superior product or services, the brilliant CEO or CFO, how the stock
price is bound to go through the roof. The success of such a connection with
an admired other leaves one feeling uplifted--strong, secure, calm, good
about oneself and one's investment. When an investment decision fails to pan
out, usually as evidenced by a decline in the stock price, however, we begin
to devalue the company, management, and those who recommended the stock. It
is this devaluation which fuels our pessimism while defensively protecting
us against mobilizing hope to quickly again. It is in part this devaluation
which causes investors to take so long to get back into a stock they have

When we make market decisions according to our need for sameness, we
emphasize our connection with like others. Within the investment community
we are value investors, growth investors, technicians, fundamentalists.
Within our portfolio we become experts on technology, insurance, retailers,
etc. In other words we become part of a group which is defined by the
skills, tools, or belief systems which are passed from one generation of
investors to the next.

Because investors establish with their companies ties which they come to
partially rely on for the maintenance of a sense of self, Mr. and Ms.
investor develop what I like to call a self sustaining fantasy in relation
to small companies. This fantasy encourages investors to engage in the self
sustaining mirroring, idealizing, and partnering fantasies. Micro-cap
companies, however, continually fail to remain attuned to investor
fantasies. Inevitable disruptions occur in the investor-company bond, in the
form of poor earnings reports, failure of clinical trials, technological
glitches, sales shortfalls, restructuring, law suits, short seller attacks,
patent difficulties, etc.

Hopes, Fears, and Organizing Patterns

There is always a set of conflicting feelings inherent in investors'
relationships with their companies. On the one hand investors long to
experience management as a source of self sustaining functions: mirroring
appreciation for their devotion to the company and their intelligent
investment decisions, inclusiveness which helps one feel a certain likeness
and validates one's personal beliefs and or philosophies, a sense of being
welcomed into a special group which shares its knowledge and skills and
through association helps one feel uplifted and strong.

It is these feelings which promote buying and holding the company stock. On
the other hand, the investor simultaneously mobilizes fears that their self
sustaining fantasies won't be met, that the company will fail to respond to
the mobilized mirroring, idealizing, and partnering fantasies or reach its
goals or potential. These fears then become the source of conflict and
resistance and promote selling the stock. What is important to remember is
that none of these hopes and fears necessarily have anything to do with the
reality of the company's progress. They depend entirely on the lens through
which the investor organizes his or her world, and that lens is shaped by
both the investor's history and the company's style of communicating.

For example, imagine interviewing a CEO of a small company who tells you
that "Our company is ready to explode. We are negotiating license agreements
with several major players around the world, and in a short time our
technology will be the dominant one in the industry. Within 18 months I
expect we will be a $100 million dollar company."

For some investors such a statement will appear to be nothing more than hype
coming from a promoter who should not be trusted, and there is little value
in pursuing further due diligence. For others, the statement holds out the
promise of a lucrative investment which the average investor has failed to
discern and which deserves further investigating.

The contrasting subjective reactions to the same presentation reflect
different organizing principles and styles of communication. The first
investor's lens may be tinted with historical experiences in which promises
( and their failures ) are associated with such strong emotional conflict and
subjective danger that the investor cannot allow the possibility of their
actual realization to enter into consciousness, thus restricting the
person's view of the company.The second investor's lens may be tinted by
positive historical experiences with admired others which have engendered
trust in their pronouncements. The company's style of communication,
however, will in both cases influence which particular historical emotions
are likely to be mobilized.

The Conflict between Investors and Management

To be successful in micro-cap investing, one must possess a rare combination
of psychological characteristics. First, one must have the capacity for
right hemisphere thinking ( imaginative, artistic, intuitive, emotional,
wholistic, inductive ) . One of the reasons development stage investors are so
passionate about their companies--positively or negatively--relates to their
use of emotion, intuition, and creativity in their cognitive functioning.

Without the guidance of a more analytical function, however, such passion
easily leads to pipe dreams and fosters totally unrealistic thinking about
the transition from idea to marketing a product. Second, one must possess
the psychological capacity to assume risk rather than mange risk. Third, one
has to possess an imperturbable optimism about the future rather than a more
conservative alliance with the past. For it is this confidence in the future
that allows for failure ( of which there are plenty in micro stage investing )
while maintaining a confidence in continued creative decision making that is
enjoyed for its own sake. Fourth, one must possess a healthy sense of self
esteem which protects one from succumbing to the bumps and bruises of
everyday life.

For development stage companies' progressive journeys are filled with enough
potholes to derail all but the confidently centered investors. Those who use
the stock price of their companies as a mirror for their self esteem do not
perform well in this speculative market.

Fifth, successful development stage company investors must have the capacity
to trust in their own research and judgments. They cannot depend on media
gurus for investment guidance, for they frequently must invest against a
very powerful herd which is attempting to prevent the emergence of an
embryonic product or service.

Sixth, development stage investing requires enormous patience without a
sense of drivenness that often accompanies investments in exciting new
products. To remain with a company while it makes the transition from
development stage to marketing company usually strains the patience of the
most dedicated investors. Companies do not make this transition without
major product glitches, changes of management, law suits, and temporary
financial problems. Investors do not succeed when they are consumed with
the next press release or 10% move in the stock price, or the next quarter's

These are the characteristics of successful micro-cap investors. They also
happen to describe successful CEOs, who are generally optimistic,
imaginative, creative, can run at risk rather than run from it, are centered
in themselves, sometimes arrogant and narcissistic, trust in their own
judgment, and are extremely patient.


Severe problems arise because most investors in small companies are
unsuccessful ones. They tend to be left brained, rational and want clear
explanations whereas CEOs often appear to act intuitively, making snap
judgments that they don't explain clearly and for which they don't verbalize

Most investors tend to be much more risk averse than they claim and become
frightened at volatility and long holding periods if their stock is not
moving up.

Most CEOs care very little about the temporary price of their stock. Most
investors are pessimistic and skeptical of company claims. Most CEO's are
overly invested in their companies and thus often more optimistic than
reality warrants.

Most investors use their short term investment performance as a measure of
their self-esteem, where as most CEOs have very thick skins. Most investors
depend on media gurus for their information whereas CEOs trust in their own
research and authority.

Most investors have difficulty holding their investments for more than a
year if the stock price isn't moving. Most CEOs realize it will take several
years to bring an idea to profitable fruition.

Based on this theory, we must then ask the question: What should a company
do to acquire and keep investors loyal to their stock? We will suggest some
answers in Part 2.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:05 - ID#22956)
*Crude Oil*
I have studied the charts and conjured up J Paul Getty in my dream last night and we both agree that there will be a nice jump in Crude prices this week.....fueled, of course, by Venezuela strike and OPEC......uh huh.

Plus there is a declining wedgie being formed ( on a small scale ) . With the Funnymentals in place and the TA looking goooood.....confidence level is high....ohmy! Eh, StudioR ( ? ) cap the gushers


(Sun May 10 1998 20:07 - ID#411331)
@Steve in To: Thank you for the analysis of Charts and graphs.
I once picked up a book which had as an introductory sentence that the
author didn't have much faith in charts and graphs as a method of predicting trends but that the following volume was an excellent source
for illustrating the methods presently in use. I have tended to rely on fundamentals myself, but find that inevitably, I take positions too early. Perhaps this is where charts can help, in the near term.
If gold is oversold, and in short supply, then the price will rise, not just because of the above, but because of rotation from the DOW/TSE
industrials, and because gold is the only hedge in stagflation and deflation. Add in the EURO to hasten the demise of the $US and we should see some improvement after June. I know there are a lot of chartists out there, and with no news but flase rumors, the present pattern is weak and
could slip further. This does not matter in the long run, but it is frustrating to see the chartist tail wag the dog. This may even make sense if we assume that the COMEX and LBM are paper markets and that
many more gold certificates may have been issued than there are gold oz to back them.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:12 - ID#43460)
Its good to see that all is the same at Kitco %^]
Squirrel, as I read your posts it occurs to me that what you're describing sounds a lot like a MUD game. You know there are gaming groups all around the world who get together to play in alternative universes. MUD universes come in many flavors ranging from the sort of mildly post apocalyptic one you describe to ones peopled by elves, dwarves and gnomes and possibly even talking moose and squirrels. ( Back a few years ago while I was stuck at home recovering from cancer I got into playing one using the personna of a demented female dwarf with bad teeth. Lots of fun! ) IMHO

Here is a link which can lead to a MUD FAQ and multiple pages. IMHO

On the other topic of were discussion today, that of fractional gold coins, I think that after pondering some I may buy some of them. but not for a post apocalyptic universe, but rather to give to children of family members and friends. The 1/10 ounce coins are going now for about the price of a new game cartrage for a Nintendo 64, a couple of video movies or couple of new dresses for Barbi! IMHO

(Sun May 10 1998 20:29 - ID#253153)
Donald, Have the fed drained reserves of friday ?

(Sun May 10 1998 20:29 - ID#411331)
@ALL: I have bought Mounties but am now looking to buy junk silver coins for day to day purchases.
Is there anyone out there who knows what coins ( types, years ) and prices
one should pay relative to spot? I am also looking for a coin source/dealer in the Toronto area. Should I buy small ingots instead?
( Johnson-Matthey have an outlet in Toronto )

The curious thing is, I have been collecting silver for years, but it's
all in the form of high grade silver ore from the Cobalt Silver Camp, or
from Silver Islet, one of the most famous silver mines in the world.
As a mineral collector, I have picked up blocks of high grade running
80% silver weighing in at 20 to 30 lbs each. But its still full of cobalt, arsenic, and nickel values. How do you cash that stuff in!?
Anyone want to buy a $1000 silver nugget?

(Sun May 10 1998 20:34 - ID#347457)
@PH in LA on sailing through year 2000
PH in LA,
To be honest, I don't plan to sail through 2000 because of Y2K unrest. I plan to sail just because I need a break. Right now I am so deep in work ( Y2K ;- ( ) that I find very little time to enjoy being on o boat. I am tired of work, city life, and my profession. Come year 2000, I plan to get out of professional life and become a sailing bum ;- ) Timing coincides with my youngest son finishig college. No more obligations, I'll just buy a bigger boat and go away. No specific plan yet, just wonder around is fine with me.

BTW you sailors, if you watched on TV a start of the Withbread leg 8 - you would see me somewhere in the middle of those 4,000 boats on Chesepeake bidding fair winds to all racing boats. It was neet to see them tacking some 300 yards away.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:36 - ID#26793)
Ken Starr ordered a search of the residential section of the White House.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:39 - ID#43460)
rhody re junk silver
Once, several years ago I lucked into a real find with junk silver. In an order of dimes I got an old bag which was full of the so called 'mercury' dime, including some rare dates. So if ( and I say IF rather strongly, as junk silver is very heavy and unweildy ) I ever buy any junk silver it will probably be in the form of US dimes. With my luck, though, the whole thing would be 1964 Roosevelts! IMHO

(Sun May 10 1998 20:40 - ID#26793)
@JP: Yes, the Fed drained reserves on Friday

(Sun May 10 1998 20:43 - ID#26793)
Apex Silver news (Soros)

(Sun May 10 1998 20:44 - ID#253153)
Donald, thank you.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:45 - ID#288369)
@EBlack Gold......Texas Tea, that is.....................
Is it too early for me to celebrate this week's upswing in crude pricing? I think not!!! ( puff ) EB....don't tell T#1 that tequilalene is the last hydrocarbon that distills off cracked vapors right before assfault. Top off the tanks!....crude and tequilalene moving higher!!! studio.refiner

(Sun May 10 1998 20:50 - ID#210114)
Gold Will Tank Again.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:50 - ID#26793)
Indonesia's Chinese fear for their lives.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:58 - ID#26793)
Repost of Important China riots story from this morning.

(Sun May 10 1998 20:59 - ID#43460)
Gold will tank again?

(Sun May 10 1998 21:02 - ID#210114)
Yes, will have a few more rumours in the next two weeks, then ECB announce only 10% gold reserves.

Gold will tank. Maybe its a consiracy; maybe gold is dead. I don't know.

(Sun May 10 1998 21:02 - ID#287114)
A.P.H...Psychology of investing
The fellow appears to me to be

(Sun May 10 1998 21:29 - ID#253153)
Does the fed control the money supply and interest rates ?
One of the assumptions people make is that inflation will go on and on because the fed can control the money supply and interest rates.If the market goes down too much ,you'll think the fed will ease money, or if it goes up too much, they'll tighten it. But you are assuming there is a controlling factor that is absent. The fed CANNOT AND DOES NOT control the money supply and interset rates. There are specific limits
beyond which it cannot go. Changes in the money supply are caused by increases and decreases in treasury deposits in federal reserve banks.
A $2 billion decrease in treasury deposits at the fed will result in a $2 billion increase in the money supply and vice versa.
The mechanics is simple. The treasury has a checking account in, say the federal reserve bank of Boston, and they also have one in the first National bank of Boston.The fed for some unexplained reason counts money in the hands of the public as part of the money supply but doesn't
count it if it's in the chands of the government.In other words, the deposit in the First National bank is counted in the money supply , but the one in the fed bank of Boston isn't.The fed's rationale is that if the money supply isn't not held by the public ,it can't be spent. That is nonsense because the government spends it every day. The fed has no control over the process what soever. If the treasury deposits $5 billion in the fed, the fed has to do something with it. They can't leave it in cash. Their only choice is to buy $5 billion of treasuries. When the treasury spends that $5 billion, the fed is compelled to sell their $5 billion in treasuries. they have no choice or control over the transaction at all.

(Sun May 10 1998 21:29 - ID#31868)
spock - I hope you are right. I want to buy as much gold as I can at lower prices,
truck fulls.

(Sun May 10 1998 21:32 - ID#39828)
one more cup of coffee before I go, to the valley below!
Monday 11 May, 1998 ( 9:10am AEST )

The Australian dollar has fallen to a four month low at the
start of trading.

Adrian Thirsk reports, foreign exchange dealers believe the
currency could go lower.

The Reserve Bank stepped into the market on the ninth of
January this year, after the Australian dollar hit an
eleven-year low. This morning the currency is within
one-tenth of a cent of that eleven-year low. It's down
one-quarter of a cent on Saturday morning's close in New
York; currently being quoted at around 63-point-2-6 US
cents. Dealers say that despite some exporter buying,
sentiment is strongly against the dollar; with the unrest in
Indonesia and a weaker Japanese yen among the factors
causing concern. Head of foreign exchange at ANZ
Investment Bank, George Diamantopoulos: "I think at this
stage 63-and-a-quarter, which is where we're sitting at the
moment is quite important. This is where the Reserve Bank
supposedly intervened a while ago. I don't know if they're
going to be around at the moment, but I think on the day
we are going to see a test on that level."

Return to the World News Menu

plus from the Asia Pacific Region in Indonesian, Chinese and Tok Pisin

 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Mon May 11 09:30:01 1998 ( AEST )

AEST = Australian Eastern Standard Time

(Sun May 10 1998 21:32 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R - they called me flat head for ten years before I figured out
I was supposed to follow the steam roller with a straw. Duh!!!

(Sun May 10 1998 21:39 - ID#39828)
Palestine is my homeland. All settlers out of Haoma.
Monday 11 May, 1998 ( 11:05am AEST )

Financial and social unrest in Asia is being blamed for an
overnight slide in the value of the Australian Dollar.

The dollar was a short time ago, trading at 63-point-3-5 US
cents, after falling to a four month low

The head of foreign exchange at ANZ Investment Bank,
George Diamantopoulos, says it may fall further today.

There's speculation the Reserve bank may intervene as it
did following a sharp fall in the dollar in January.

You know, people will have it in the back of their minds,
yes but I suppose the economy is a little different to what
is was or sentiments are different now to what it was back
then, so it always remains in the back of traders' minds.

Monday 11 May, 1998 ( 11:10am AEST )

Palestinian leaders have called on the United States to
blame Israel publicly for the cancellation of a summit in
Washington designed to revive the peace process.

The summit between Yasser Arafat, U-S President Bill
Clinton and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was
called off after Israel rejected U-S proposals for
withdrawals from the West Bank.

Jim Gale reports, it is now unclear when the summit will
take place.
America had issued an ultimatum to israel, as well as a
deadline. If there was no agreement on its plan, than there
would be no summit. After three meetings with Prime
minister Netanyahu, described as the most difficult he has
ever had with the Israeli leader, Mr Ross has not won that
agreement. Mr Netanyahu is said to have been furious
with the Americans for setting a deadline. Although he
will go to America for 50th anniversary celebrations this
week, the summit is likely to have to wait until after Mr
Netanyahu's visit to China later this month.

Return to the World News Menu

plus from the Asia Pacific Region in Indonesian, Chinese and Tok Pisin

 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Mon May 11 11:30:02 1998 ( AEST )

AEST = Australian Eastern Standard Time

Return to the World News Menu

plus from the Asia Pacific Region in Indonesian, Chinese and Tok Pisin

 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Mon May 11 11:30:02 1998 ( AEST )

AEST = Australian Eastern Standard Time

(Sun May 10 1998 21:48 - ID#208252)

(Sun May 10 1998 21:48 - ID#43460)
Spock re gold tanking
So! Did you get this inside info from a Vulcan mind meld or are you secretly on the board of governors of the Bundesbank or merely a heavy hitter at the Fed? %^] )

But seriously, supposing for the sake of discussion that you are correct, which will tank faster gold or US$ do you think?

(Sun May 10 1998 21:53 - ID#288369)
Jorge is a stooge for Geo. Soros.......they have designs on stealing the gold from your hands....yes, vigilence! sleep with one eye open, my friend....yet the tequilaconda seeks revenge for the smaller swallowed serpents, alas he fancies you...but let him have at the brown rat. ( gulp )

(Sun May 10 1998 21:57 - ID#401460)
Chrysler No Longer American

But the association's bylaws do not allow AAMA members to be owned or controlled
by a foreign corporation, meaning the bylaws have to be rewritten or Chrysler has to be kicked out.

The government is pumping more than $200 million annually into the Partnership for
a New Generation of Vehicles - a figure more than matched by the automakers in their joint efforts. But foreign-owned auto companies are not allowed to participate and now government officials must figure out what to do.

The US has lost 1/3 of its military production capacity, and no one seems to give a hoot. The US tax payer has loaned and financed Chryslers rebirth and technology, only to see a foreign power end up with the fruits of their investment - and no one gives a hoot.

All that the American Taxpayer cares about is Hooters.


(Sun May 10 1998 22:02 - ID#218253)
S&P futures on globex
Does anyone know where to get updates on S&P futures on globex?

(Sun May 10 1998 22:05 - ID#287114)
High %Rise
Just the first step in auto restructuring...It will be AMERICAN.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:06 - ID#401460)

S & P Futures


(Sun May 10 1998 22:13 - ID#255217)
Y2K and Joe 6-pack
FWIW dept. I recently ran into someone I know only very casually. But in a very small town any topic may serve as reason for further conversation. I mentioned computers and asked him if he had one. He said yes, but that he didn't use it very much. I know he works long hours and doesn't seem to be the computer "type", anyhow.

I mentioned the Y2K problem, thinking he might not even be aware of it. He was aware of it and had a vague idea of the nature of the problem, saying he had seen something on TV about it. I cited several consequences of non-compliance in business and government. When I mentioned banks and account balance problems, he immediately responded in an animated fashion as though I had stuck him with a pin.

He informed me that there was no way in hell he was going to leave any money in any of his accounts as Y2K approached. I think he said he had already moved some of it out already and had put it "in a safe place".

Now, if this guy is anywhere near representative of others with a similar profile, I believe that as we get nearer to A.D. 2000, the scenario will accelerate to the point where banks will experience prolonged and intensifying runs due to people wanting to protect their money from the specter of the Y2K monster. Rightly or wrongly, accurately or hysterically, people WILL talk to one another and some will get it right, some will get it wrong and some will dismiss it with a wave of the hand. But Y2K WILL come and, yes, go. It will be interesting to watch events unfold. Uh huh.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:14 - ID#242)

(Sun May 10 1998 22:15 - ID#401460)

Chrysler is now controlled by Daimler a German Company, headquarterd in Germany.

How does America get Daimler Chrysler to move to the US and be an American Co.?

Why would the Germans want to do this?

By the way Daimler is talking to Nissan and Ford.

The New Euro is more powerful then what people think - must be some Gold back there.


(Sun May 10 1998 22:19 - ID#45173)
@Spock $200 gold is cheap and $400 gold is cheap
Gold's been tanking for 18 years and will continue to do so until a shift event that puts equities in disfavor. It's just that simple. There's no sense holding your breath or trying to predict exactly when it's going to happen or even exactly what it will be. My bet is on an event in the next two years, which is why I'm out of the stock market and into precious metals. In the mean time, buy gold hedge in the best way you can.

Today I think I received an education at a local coin show. Turns out the reason St. Gaudens and other old US gold coins are going up in price lately, I was told, is ironically because bullion is down: Europeans own most of the US gold coins and they won't sell them when the spot price is low. The only way to buy them when spot is down is from non-Europeans, and since the supply among non-Europeans is relatively small, the price is high. Does this makes sense to anyone? In any case I picked up a St. Gaudens 1908 MS60 no motto for $465 and a 1904S Liberty Head for $460. Close to wholesale prices, seems to me. ( Paid cash and came to the show late. )

(Sun May 10 1998 22:20 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R- Ha! They will never find my gold, never, this jorge you speak of,
does he walk with a limp and have fiat colored teeth. The tequilaconda is my friend. I do not eat him, he does not eat me. The little ones we imbibe are not of his tribe.

All is well at Cuervo Central. A fabulous day was had by all my mothers.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:22 - ID#347235)
I read somewhere that Chrysler retains 51 percent of their stock, sorry read too many things to remember where. Also suffer from CRS at times. My only worry is that Daimler will make K Cars REMEMBER THEM YEWCCCCH.
Seriously I think this will work out well in the end, after all FOrd bought Jaguar didnt they, GM Owns Opel in Germany. SO whats the fuss all about.

It is also about time Netanyahu stood upto ol/slick and refuses to give up any more land. Shalom.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:22 - ID#31868)
HigRise - 21:57
And most of those are not real anymore either.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:29 - ID#287114)
High Rise
Forget anybody moving anyplace. Do you have any idea how many Chrysler. G.M. and Ford products are made in Canada and elswhere.
Its called foreign exchange.. One U.S.A dollar is 60 cents Canadian.
The German Mark is strong also. There will be other mergers...I still say it will end up being American, You fellows seem to be losing faith.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:31 - ID#43460)
yahoo investment challenge info
I found this link while looking up some market stats on Yahoo. they are having a new investment contest this month. Goodnight all.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:33 - ID#253153)
Australian dollar is going down
Australia sold 2/3 of their gold in 1997. No wonder their dollar is going
down. All currencies without gold backing will decline ( including the Canadian dollar ) .

(Sun May 10 1998 22:37 - ID#356379)
Baseless Guesses

Well, since everyone else tonight seems to be pulling future guestimates out of their a**es, I'll give it a shot.

I put a lot of value in cycles. The stuff I've seen calls for a rally in both gold and silver in June/July. Another way to look at it is that w we are now experiencing the "tanking" everyone is predicting for later.

The biggest question I have about gold is: Who benefits by driving the price lower? It seems to me that the answer lies with the European central banks who will have established a low initial reserve value benchmark for the new EURO currency. So, once the EURO is kicked off, they allow the price of gold to rally to its fair market value ( $425-463? ) , and have a great start in their challenge to the US dollar ( which is backed by $1.5 trillion of debt ) .


Away to the still... RR

(Sun May 10 1998 22:39 - ID#287114)
J.P. Canadian Dollar
Them Canucks sold there Gold a few years back. That is why there dollar is lower than a snakes ass in Aulsralia.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:41 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter - To the moon?
oleman . . Sun, May 10, 8:15PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
If I ever had any doubt that Rubin's friends had ALL the numbers early enough to take advantage of them, I'd be far too dumb to be in this game. Puzzle is why did the 8:30 buying tsunami hit? This was by far the largest 5 and 15 and 60 minute volume in the entire history of the spoos.
And it all took place on globex. It plainly told me that I can NOT BE SHORT. ( I was short at the time ) Now why did they tell me that I CAN NOT short this market? Only 2 alternative answers: Either we're going to the moon from here, or its a fake out of historic proportions. Verrrrry interesting.

what was the highest 5 min tic volume you'd ever seen in a globex session prior to Fri.?

oleman . . Sun, May 10, 8:18PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
Without checking, I'd say a little over 100. NEVER been 200 before. This was HUGE!

oleman: the way i read tic volume, we should never ever revisit that 1096 area or the market is in big big trouble.

oleman . . Sun, May 10, 8:21PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
Its the best "crash stop" since the bull market started. That number breaks we'll try out the new circuit breakers immediately. It WAS huge!------and I was short.: )

agreed. biggest ever. we need to go up a lot of points early this week or the market is in trouble in my view. Crash stop is THE way to look at it

crash stop?, i need a dictionary,,,

oleman . . Sun, May 10, 8:25PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
A crash stop is apoint where you can go short on a stop with good assurance that you are gonna make a significant profit very quickly.

In Tokyo this morning, Orders placed by foreign investors through 10 Foreign securities houses before the start of stock trading on Monday showed a net buying stance of 5.1 million shares, market sources said. Foreign investor sell orders totalled 19.2 million shares, against buy orders for 24.3 million shares.

oleman . . Sun, May 10, 8:31PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
A lot of foreign buying, especially out of Europe, comes in the morning on globex. How do you do THAT much buying in globex without moving the market up 20-30 handles? You have your European agents ready to buy when a BEARISH report comes out. No other way. Now, if all the highly placed Klintonistas-----Rubin, Hillary, Gore, etc, plus all the fokes who've given over 100k to the DNC lately had their European agents buying that report-induced "inflation scare", you could get that unprecedented volume. If that be the case, we're going to the moon, for sure.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:46 - ID#31868)
I still say the vote this week is a vote of confidence for either Rubin
or Greenspan. It will be interesting to see who wins, and the fireworks afterwards.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:56 - ID#287114)
J. B.
Canada sold gold when Mullroney was prime minister.
He is a good freind of American George bush. Any good gold bug
will tell you . The rest of the story.

(Sun May 10 1998 22:56 - ID#287114)
J. B.
Canada sold gold when Mullroney was prime minister.
He is a good freind of American George bush. Any good gold bug
will tell you . The rest of the story.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:09 - ID#285121)
Korea breaks 52 week low !
Until this evening the 52 week low was 368.57 now 366.91. Followed all the IMF rules too.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:11 - ID#260194)
goldbones post@ 18:31
The Percy Spilling should be ( Spilberg ) of Oliver is my broker.
One heck of a nice guy. He was correct on his picks and predictions
about 75% of the time before BRE-X fisaco.

I hope he is correct on his new prediction for the price of gold as his
predictions are now 50/50 at the best.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:13 - ID#285121)
Tolerant1 / No Problem !
Greenspan will do exactly as Slick says. I have little doubt.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:16 - ID#186147)
Who's the Boss?
Suspicious: Yes. And Slick will do EXACTLY as Rubin says.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:17 - ID#290118)
MUD games have been around as long as human speech.
Thank you for saying Y2K/apocalyse simulations have the same rationale and modus operandi as gold price simulations. From the first days of human communication until today ( and for millenia to come} hunters of mammoths, elk, enemy troops, asteroids AND GOLD have had pre-hunt pow-wows to figure out how they would prosecute the coming hunt. The better the simulations - be they charts & graphs with paper & clear plastic thingies, war game scenarios played on DOD supercomputers, or people discussing what if's in a coffeeshop or internet forum - the better the outcomes for the players.

Pardon me if I detect a note of condescension in your post of 20:12 regarding "MUD universes [that] come in many flavors ranging from the sort of mildly post apocalyptic one you describe to ones peopled by elves, dwarves and gnomes and possibly even talking moose and squirrels."

Many of us regard with serious concern the likely socio-economic outcomes of Y2K, Euro pitfalls, Pan-Asian flu, and monetary/political manipulations by world-class movers and shakers. I ass-u-me most here on the Kitco forums are engaged in trying to make a living.

There are some, no doubt, who engage in trading and technical analysis as a hobby since they feel secure enough in their financial welfare to gamble. Such gaming is similar to staff officers moving models of ships on a large board-map of the Pacific Ocean. These officers can play for 8-10 hours a day, lose a few pieces ( as in chess ) , and retire home to hot meals, warm beds and cuddlesome companions. Meanwhile - men, in the ships those game pieces represent, struggle against savage seas in battles where shells explode, ships sink, men drown and aircraft crash. My father was one of those men. To him and his shipmates it was not a chess game!

To those of us who do not have ample funds to gamble with - such "games" as Y2K, Euro, POG & DOW ups & downs, and unemployment/inflation are matters of economic survival. The prices of GOLD, SILVER, lead, and zinc may be merely glowing numbers on a computer screen to many of you. A drop in those prices means a temporary setback and incentive to transfer funds to other investments. A potential mine closure to the stockholders of ASARCO is a sterile statistic. To the community and families who depend on that mine it means unemployment and looking for jobs at restaurants or as construction labor. It means more divorces, domestic violence, alcoholism, child abuse, and suicide among those families whose incomes were lost. I live in the town so described! My business depends on it! I can not "transfer my investments" with a few keystrokes.

Pardon if the above descriptions strike too close to home and pardon my bitterness. I just could not let someone dismiss our discussions of worrisome futures as merely a game. To many of us these what-if scenarios are not a game - they are plans to insure the survival of ourselves, our loved ones, our community and our nation.

Thank you, Kitcoites, for listening to me.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 10 1998 23:33 - ID#24135)
You are right

We are playing hardball .. sometimes I forget

(Sun May 10 1998 23:39 - ID#284255)
---Squirrel--- eloquent r u
Reality will prove your point.
As it already is throughout Asia.

The excesses of the few
And the following chaos they create.

Provide the garments we wear tomorow.

The populance will rue the age
Where money begot money
And forgot humanity.

(Sun May 10 1998 23:41 - ID#290118)
To Sharefin and John Disney
Thank You!

(Sun May 10 1998 23:57 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, squirrel, well said, not bittness, but the truth.
Regarding the Coward Erect, Robbin Rubin and Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, Mr. Greenspan, I am still reserving judgement on him, pretty soon it won't matter who gives the orders.

The Privateer went into excellent detail with the issue that came out this weekend on this very suject.

Time is short and the water is rising all too quickly.