Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:01 - ID#401237)
"trade war''

Tuesday May 12, 11:34 pm Eastern Time

Alberta Wheat Pool urges action against EU subsidy

WINNIPEG, May 12 ( Reuters ) - Canada's second largest grain handler called on the government to ``take every possible action to prevent a potential international grain trade war'' by opposing European export subsidies, the Alberta Wheat Pool said Tuesday.

``Subsidy activity, such as that seen recently in Europe, not only depresses world grain prices, it ( subsidy activity ) escalates over time,'' Graham said. ``The United States, for example, recently made a decision to reexamine and expand its Export Enhancement Program.''


(Wed May 13 1998 00:02 - ID#173274)
@the scene
OK. WHO broke the grains and metals! Amazing what happens when one leaves for a few days!

RJ -- Re: Smoke & mirrors; Yes. It also now looks like lower prices are ahead for the other two metals for the duration of the week.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:08 - ID#173274)
@the scene
APH -- This silver bust ought to be the second best buying opportunity in a LONG time and I, for one, WILL be looking for it with rapt atention!

(Wed May 13 1998 00:09 - ID#255267)
I am looking for some info in regards to pricing of futures contracts. Specifically a call on April 99 gold with a stop loss at $305. How much is the purchase price? Margin, fee etc. The last price was $309.2. Futures are not really my thing but food for thought. Thanks.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:13 - ID#390415)
Samuelson says Asia crisis deep & real, being overlooked in US

(Wed May 13 1998 00:30 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Aztec -- Gold futures margin currently is 1350. You will need to open an account. Minimum typically accepted to do so is 5000. There are MANY caveats in doing so! Personally, I think you would be much wiser in just buying the physical. You would certainly get a lot more sleep!

(Wed May 13 1998 00:31 - ID#284255)
That's one of the problems.
All chips must be inspected before they can be classified into date-sensitive or non date-sensitive.

Utill they have been inspected all are suspect.
Suspect chips seem to be around 1% to 5% of the total.

I read a good article; about why you wouldn't want to change an embedded chip.
Seems that much of the software which runs these chips is archaic.
Not only do you have to replace the chip but also the software as well.
Email chatter:
Anyone else notice a run by the "Smart money" for the defensive stocks lately. Seems that almost every chart I look at has topped in the last few weeks except for the mergers, hypes etc. I am starting to think the slow bleeding has started and no one is paying attention. If it weren't for PFE, K-TEL, DELL Chrysler etc, we would be down a few hundred points on the DOW already. I'm normally not a bear but... something is wrong in the bull pen. I am seeing too many good stocks falling to pre October PE's, PB's, PS's etc. While the defensive sectors are growing after a long lull.
Am I alone in this theory? Is this just pre Fed meeting manuvering ( sp ) or is someone finally paying attention to Asia, reduced earnings expectations, etc?
Brave new world;
To: All Employees
Re: Restroom Use Policy During Meetings
In the past employees were permitted to make trips to the restroom under
informal guidelines. Effective January 1, 1995, a Restroom Trip Policy will
be established to provide a more consistent method of accounting for each
employee's restroom time and ensuring equal treatment of all employees.
Under the policy, a "Restroom Trip Bank" will be established for each
employee. The first day of each month, employees will be given a Restroom
Trip credit of three ( 3 ) . Restroom Trip credits can be accumulated from month
to month.
Within two weeks, the entrance to both restrooms are being equipped with
personnel identification stations and computer linked voice recognition
devices. Before the end of the month each employee must provide two copies of
voice prints ( one normal and one under stress ) to his/her supervisor.
If the employee's Restroom Trip Bank Balance reaches zero, the doors to the
restrooms will not unlock for the employee's voice until the first of the next
month. In addition, both restrooms are being equipped with timed paper roll
retractors. If the restroom is occupied for more than three minutes, an alarm
will sound. Thirty seconds after the alarm sounds, the roll of paper will
retract into the wall, the toilet will flush, and the restroom door will fly
open. If the restroom remains occupied, your picture will be taken
The picture will then be posted on the faculty bulletin board. Anyone's
picture showing up three times will be subject to disciplinary action which
may result in termination.
If you have any questions about this policy, please contact your friendly
supervisor. We thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.
The Management

(Wed May 13 1998 00:31 - ID#224149)
Ship of Fools --Get smart Get short when the Sun falls
Buy silver and gold now Wow Silver is a real steal! Oh My Gold is ready for the taking --- De old Pyramid scheme but now with a bigger audience The World Wide Net Goodnight to all the night shifts.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:37 - ID#284255)
Asia tanking

Starting to look bad - no, worse
Many indices down greater than 2%

Indonesia down 4.8%

Stories on radio that HK$ under attack.

OZ SPI futures plumeting

John B__A
(Wed May 13 1998 00:37 - ID#211105)
Profit in CDE evaporating fast. It had gapped up weeks ago from ~9 1/2 to 10 and is now threatening an island reversal. Closed today at 10 /4, with an intra-day low of 10 1/16. Technically it should rally but if it breaks below 10, it could be ugly. We'll know soon I fear.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:41 - ID#225283)

Thank you , Thank you , Thank you very much for the YK2 posts earlier today.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:42 - ID#227290)
Market Comments
To all:

Let's talk about gold:
Think back for a moment.
After a long decline gold turned in an "outside month" in January. This is the sign of a turn, usually a major turn.
The January outside month was followed by an "inside month" in February. This is a consolidation pattern.
March further consolidated and then April broke out to higher highs. So far, so good.
The price reached the longterm downtrend extending from the Feb. '96 peak.
Gold didn't make it over the downtrend line on the first try. No big deal.
Now gold is near to testing its uptrend that has only been in force since the January bottom. We'll see if it breaks the uptrend line; I am hopeful the line will hold and gold will make another attempt at breaking out of the downtrend it has been in for two years and three months.

The action in the South African gold stocks today looks quite bearish. Noone said it would be easy. ( And just where has ANOTHER been lately? )

In silver: the price has come a long way down. A two-thirds retracement of the August '97 - Feb '98 rise would come to approximately $5.43, $..15 away. OTOH, we could see a turn sooner.

An interesting note is that on the day of the Buffett announcement, both Coeur d'Alene and Hecla put in huge upside gaps in their charts. Neither gap has been filled yet. The gap on the CDE chart begins at 10 and extends down to 9.25. The price made it as low as 10.06 today before moving back up.
On the Hecla chart, the price has not even gotten near its gap.
I have an idea these gaps won't get filled, although partially, they may.
I think we're nearing the end of the silver decline.

We just have to keep things in perspective.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

John B__A
(Wed May 13 1998 00:46 - ID#211105)
things getting worse in Indonesia
Reuters, Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 00:43

JAKARTA, May 13 ( Reuters ) - Indonesia's rupiah tumbled to 9,800 against the dollar and shares retreated more than two percent in early trade on Wednesday on fears of more trouble after six students were killed at a Jakarta protest rally. The deaths at Trisakti University on Tuesday were the first student deaths in three months of protests against the 32-year-rule of President Suharto.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:52 - ID#227290)
Coeur d'Alene
John B_A,
I posted my comments before I saw your remarks on CDE. The gap on the daily chart of CDE I'm speaking of was made in February, on the Buffett announcement.
I think this gap will offer solid support. I won't be surprised if the price digs into it in an attempt to fill it. But I will be surprised if the gap does get completely filled.
So a break under 10 won't alarm me. And I don't really see the "island reversal" you mention.
I'm sorry but I can't stay on and discuss it. I'm working late tonight so I won't have to work during market hours.
If you have a response, please post it and I'll read it later and we can get back to it, perhaps tomorrow.


The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 00:52 - ID#225283)
11th Annual Investment in mining Conference NY 5/27

Anyone planning to attend? It will be held at the New York Marriott Marquis Hotel.

Keynote speaker will be James Grant, Editor of Grant's Interest Rate Observer....

1997 Gold survey as presnted by Philip Klapwijk of Gold Fields Mineral Services Ltd., London

Mary Anne Aden,Pamela Aden, Robert Bishop,Ken Coleman,John Doody,Adrian Day, Peter Grandich, Ian McAvity, Mark Skiusen... & many more.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:54 - ID#227290)
NYC: Sorry, had to do one more
Private Investor,

I'll be at the show; leaving day after Memorial Day.
See you there?

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 00:54 - ID#256250)
Yes Arden I wooul have to agree a 39.2% increase in eligible gold stocks...


Gold 50,000
Silver 18,000
H.G. Copper 8,500

Warehouse stocks:

Copper - high-grade cathodes ( in short tons )
point previous received withdrawn net chg total

Total 101,227 0 1,455 -1,455 99,772

-- ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
Net. Adjust- Total
Chg. ment Today

0 48,878 37,648,995
-1,014 -48,878 51,416,911
-1,014 0 89,065,906

warehouse stocks:
-- GOLD ( Quoted in Troy Ounce )
does indicate someone must see prices going lower. 70,020 ounces at 297.60 equals $20,831,952.00. They didn't seem to think twice about moving that kind of money out of bullion. They must have wanted to get back to the DOW and/or S&P500 to catch the wave.

Also, they may be dropping this load in to help cover the deliveries that were scheduled ( and possibly are taking delivery ) from April. I am not sure how we could tell, but I do think the size and timing is very intereting. ( 4,426 contracts rpresent 442,600 ounces of gold )

New York-April 29
COMEX Delivery Notices for Today

-- -- -- -- TOTAL DELIVERY NOTICES -- -- --
SO FAR FOR April 5,789 71 4,426


Prev. Received Net. Adjust- Total
Total Withdrawn Chg. ment Today

528,159 0 0 0 0 528,159
178,524 70,020 0 70,020 0 248,544
706,683 70,020 0 70,020 0 776,703

(Wed May 13 1998 00:55 - ID#256250)
Thanks Leland, I appreciate your kind words and hard work.

John B__A
(Wed May 13 1998 00:55 - ID#211105)
I see you are also looking at that CDE gap. I like your thought that the gap may be partially filled. This could create a false island reversal intra-day and then possibly rally, at least for the short-term.

I'm signing off on this night shift so I can be up early to see if Africa and London are doing their part to break this downdraft. Enjoyed it!

John B__A
(Wed May 13 1998 00:58 - ID#211105)
I also had missed your last post before posting mine. You do give me some encouragement on CDE. I'll be glued to it this morning.

(Wed May 13 1998 00:59 - ID#270315)
Can someone please shed some light on the huge volume ( almost 1/2 million shares traded ) on ELD on the TSE today? It was also up almost 5% from yesterdays close. Does any one know or hear of any material facts involving this stock? I have a good feeling that the beaten up Gold sector is the place to be for the long haul. As Peter lynch was quoted as saying; ( "Buy when the blood is in the streets" ) There are a lot of people still bleeding from the great Gold bear, and they will want to get on the bull when it tramples the bear. The only problem is the bull will be moving at such a high rate of speed that there will be no way to jump on. The people steering the ship have sent out the warning signals and I for one will be on the ship when it proceeds into it's 180 degree turn.

(Wed May 13 1998 01:01 - ID#210235)
The last we heard from you, you were looking at a flaming sunset sky at around 2 in the afternoon. Heard on the news today that the fires in Mexico have sent so much smoke into South Texas it's a health hazard. No exercise, etc.

Where's your chaos and flux report?

(Wed May 13 1998 01:07 - ID#284255)
In the article;

The comment;
"Having overborrowed abroad -- mostly in dollars -- they now need to repay their loans. They have to cut economic growth and imports, which use scarce foreign exchange; and they have to earn more foreign exchange by raising exports."

Could this not be the situation the US will find itself?
With it's $5.5 trillion debt.

It's only the underdog being squeezed this time though.

(Wed May 13 1998 01:16 - ID#233199)
And the answer is....

Ah yes, the question..

What will be the price of Gold when Mr. ANOTHER returns to Kitco?

This is a POLL.

Your guesses please......

(Wed May 13 1998 01:32 - ID#78136)
Anothers poll

(Wed May 13 1998 01:33 - ID#153102)
@Age of Socialism
The twentieth century has been the Age of Socialism. The international socialists were styled communists and the national socialists have had different names depending on the nation. "And God said, let there be ..." and a world was created. Worlds created by human utterance are often worlds of the imagination. When they are and they are also political, human words aspire to the divine; they are primal, primary, worth fighting over in flesh and blood, in fact. Especially when the territory to be won or held is in the imagined future on earth. Propaganda is imagination in the service of victory. And by far most of what has been said in this century has been propaganda of socialisms in contest as X_ism against Y_ism.

All of the socialisms agree on some major propositions. One is that if property is important enough to the collective, then its private ownership must be surrendered or shared. All socialisms categorically reject absolute ownership of property by individuals. State direct ownership of the means of production, generally, and of the national industries, specifically, having been discredited by events and evidence, socialism may seem on the decline. However, it has been rescued from the dustbin and renewed by the proposition that only collective State regulation of property and production can protect Mother Earth. In place of the religious feeling once drawn from the now widely discredited and disbelieved Christian religion to justify forced charity, the environmentalism socialism inspires religious feelings with the doctrine and worship of Mother Earth of Native Peoples. This is an internationalist variant of the German Nazi environmentalism which celebrated the pagan Nature worship and other blood and soil virtues of the ancient tribe. Another Hitler could pop up anywhere in the political environment of socialism, even in Cambodia. United Nations or world treaties on the collective regulation of people, property, and production to protect Mother Earth are the cutting edge of International Nazism. The proposition is that as no individual within a State has an absolute right to property, no State has either. They should not only take care ( following approved instructions carefully ) , but share ( patents, technologies, and funding ) .

The US greenback is the currency of global nazism. The IMF and World Bank are environmental protection agencies in their policies of lending for development. The global political support which accrued to the US$ in its role of currency to protect Mother Earth is a major reason the US$ has held its status as reserve currency for as long as it has. Without it, there will be no Santa Claus at the U.N.

Socialism requires theft to fulfill any of its purposes so larceny lurks in the heart of every socialist. Since it is rationalized theft, it doesn't seem wrong. But, really there is no difference between a man robbing to feed his family and an environmental protection agent fining a farmer for plowing without permission. Both have rationalized that what they do is not wrong. But, in both instances somebody's right to property has been appropriated by force. If I cannot burn the leaves or a can of trash in my backyard, a right to the enjoyment of my land has been appropriated. I could go on along this line with examples for days. I think all environmentalism socialists should be branded with a big legger "T" for thief on their forehead.

I know this is politically incorrect blasphemy to say, but, then, you have to understand nature worship is not a religion of which I am a devotee.

(Wed May 13 1998 01:39 - ID#252197)
fact or fiction?
Someone told me today that Soros bought 8 billion
dollars worth of puts on the British pound. Is this
old news - new news - or simply BS?

PH in LA
(Wed May 13 1998 01:56 - ID#225408)
Smoke and butterflies

You seem almost rabid about this property rights thing. Don't really want to wave a red flag in your face, but would be curious to hear your answer to this question:

Does owning property include ownership of the air above it, or is ownership of the air common to all living things? In other words, what does your property owner do with the smoke from his burning leaves? Should he have the implicit right to export his smoke onto ( over ) the property of another property owner?

Your answer should be of interest to the smoking/anti-smoking debate and to the environmentalists, too.

What would you say to the property owner to whose property the monarch butterfly comes for its annual mating rituals? Could such a property owner exterminate all the butterflies? Don't other property owners have any right to monarch butterflies during the rest of the year when they are not mating?

Just curious.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:05 - ID#233199)
@ PH in LA

The only article I mangaged to get a hold of by Mr R D is ""Currency Crises and Collapses" in joint aurthorship. Interesting, in that is make it easier to believe teh US Dollar could collapse.

But is he ANOTHER? What have you read or seen or heard. I'm not to good at this sort or research and I'm limited by massive ignorance as well.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:05 - ID#276251)
Study says hedging played part in gold price fall
By Kenneth Gooding, Mining Correspondent
The dramatic growth in the use of hedging by gold producers in the past 10 years undoubtedly played a part in the fall in the price of the metal - which in December sank to its lowest for 18 years - according to a new study from the World Gold Council.
Ironically, the relatively low price has produced a growing consensus in the gold industry in favour of hedging in some form, the study suggests.
A year ago a successful hedge programme in most cases simply increased a producer's profitability, but today the survival of many gold mines depends on hedging, it points out.
The authors, Ian Cox, a former head of precious metals trading at Samuel Montagu, the UK merchant bank, and Ian Emsley, an economist and analyst with Anglo American Corporation of South Africa, say producers gradually realised gold prices were on an extended downward path last year and accelerated their hedging activities.
This resulted in an estimated additional 500 tonnes of gold supply reaching the market, roughly equivalent to all the new gold mined in South Africa, the biggest producer.
Hedging on this scale is not likely to be repeated in the short term, they say, partly because many new gold projects are being put back because of low prices.
Nevertheless, in the "longer term, the situation could be different as the development of low-cost gold projects will bring new volumes of hedging to the market at lower prices than are currently acceptable".
The growth of hedging was made possible by the increasing readiness of central banks to lend gold from their reserves to provide the liquidity for funding hedge transactions. In the past 10 years central bank lending has risen from an annual 400 tonnes to about 4,000 tonnes.
The WGC is a promotional organisation financed by some gold mining groups.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:07 - ID#233199)
@PH in LA my e-mail address

(Wed May 13 1998 02:11 - ID#233199)

I'll guess $325 if Gold looking Bullish, other wise, $335.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:14 - ID#248180)
Gold price Study from FT London
Commodities 
Study says hedging played part in gold price fall
By Kenneth Gooding, Mining Correspondent
The dramatic growth in the use of hedging by gold producers in the past 10 years undoubtedly played a part in the fall in the price of the metal - which in December sank to its lowest for 18 years - according to a new study from the World Gold Council.

Ironically, the relatively low price has produced a growing consensus in the gold industry in favour of hedging in some form, the study suggests.

A year ago a successful hedge programme in most cases simply increased a producer's profitability, but today the survival of many gold mines depends on hedging, it points out.

The authors, Ian Cox, a former head of precious metals trading at Samuel Montagu, the UK merchant bank, and Ian Emsley, an economist and analyst with Anglo American Corporation of South Africa, say producers gradually realised gold prices were on an extended downward path last year and accelerated their hedging activities.

This resulted in an estimated additional 500 tonnes of gold supply reaching the market, roughly equivalent to all the new gold mined in South Africa, the biggest producer.

Hedging on this scale is not likely to be repeated in the short term, they say, partly because many new gold projects are being put back because of low prices.

Nevertheless, in the "longer term, the situation could be different as the development of low-cost gold projects will bring new volumes of hedging to the market at lower prices than are currently acceptable".

The growth of hedging was made possible by the increasing readiness of central banks to lend gold from their reserves to provide the liquidity for funding hedge transactions. In the past 10 years central bank lending has risen from an annual 400 tonnes to about 4,000 tonnes.

The WGC is a promotional organisation financed by some gold mining groups.
Daily volume in the London gold market, the international settlement centre for gold bullion, fell by 10 per cent from the March level to 34.5m troy ounces in April, according to the London Bullion Market Association. The average daily value was also down, from $11.4bn to $10.6bn.

"Utilisation of borrowed gold by the mining industry - its development and future prospects" free from the WGC, 10 Haymarket, London SW1Y 4BP.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:23 - ID#320158)
Had to come back for one more look before bedtime.
Eldorado issued a press release saying it had sold "most" of its 37.5% interest in a company called Energold Mining.
I don't know how much money the share sale comes to, but I imagine the market likes it that ELD has money in hand rather than shares of another company.

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 02:42 - ID#372276)
Have you ever read Aristophanes "Ecclesiazusae"? If not give it an hour of your life, it is short and sweet like all Aristophanes. And it is a great laugh.

(Wed May 13 1998 02:52 - ID#413109)
Worth repeating
Had mentioned before that I've tracked the NIKKEI from the time it
broke until now. Had expected a final leg to between 7-11K, but then
watched a pattern develop that reminded me of the dow from '29 into
the mid to late '30s. So when it started making the current patterns
I posted that I believe this level to be a buy area, with a stop just
below 15 K,maybe 14.5K. When the news is bad and everyone agrees and
is bearish, isn't that the time to accumulate??
ANOTHER little phenomena I've been observing, here most all seem to
be in agreement that the world is going to hell, shouldn't that make
some of you contrarians a little uncomfortable. We all seem to be looking
only at the negatives, posting them ad nauseum, aren't there any positive
things left to at least temporaraly check out. A lot of little stocks
what has been referred to by the pros in the old days as "the cats & dogs" are making basing patterns, or are in an upturn. Check out NOVL,
GOTK, CYBD, EROX, MOGN just to mention a few.
Life is a variety, not just a single track. When you get to the fork
in the road, take it! ( not mine but worth it at this point ) .

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 02:57 - ID#24135)
If it makes you feel better..
I dont even take my shirts to a
Chinese laundry...My comments do
not involve Moral judgment.. I simply
feel that what you see at the movies
may be a forerunner of things to
come .. and the first signs of an
surfacing AGENDA.
Look at some old movies from the
30s portraying Abe Lincoln.
The guy would have given Jesus a
close run race.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:01 - ID#24135)
The REAL agenda of environmentalism
For Mozel.
Yes .. your post is required reading. That
is what the movement is about... The destruction
of property rights.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:04 - ID#24135)
Thats Entertainment
For Sam ..
Kitco .. wall to wall entertainment.
But we need more chicks.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:06 - ID#24135)
Jack ..
is the pride of the family..

(Wed May 13 1998 03:07 - ID#340302)
Just a Few Posts Before I Leave for the Big Apple....
...because I am an inveterate Kitcophile.

The most interesting aspect of America's placing India in "trade exile" is that the second most populous country in the world will now have greater impetus to shed its American dollar reserves and increase its neutral PM reserves.
Report: US to impose sanctions on India
NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - President Clinton will
impose a host of economic sanctions on India
Wednesday as punishment for detonating three
underground nuclear weapons, The New York
Times reported.

Clinton made the decision on Tuesday night
aboard Air Force One as he was enroute to
Germany, the newspaper said, citing unnamed
senior administration officials.

The decision followed administration offers for
India to avoid sanctions if it would disavow any
future testing or deployment of nuclear weapons,
the Times said. But India signaled no willingness
to consider any of the administration's demands.

"There are no indications from the Indians that
they are prepared to take any significant steps,"
the Times quoted one source saying.

Another source told the paper that India's
response to the administration was simply a plea
for more time.

The harsh penalties expected are required under the 1994 Nuclear Proliferation Prevention Act.

The law will cut off virtually all U.S. aid to India, bar American banks from making loans to its government and restrict the export of computers and other equipment that might have military uses.

It will also require the United States to oppose loans to India from the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, the paper said.

Other government officials told the paper that Pakistan, with whom India has fought several wars since their independence from Britain, appears to be preparing a nuclear test of its own as a response to India's three blasts on Monday.

The newspaper said U.S. aid and trade with India is relatively small with about $7.7 billion in U.S. exports and $7.3 billion in Indian imports. And compared with other Asian countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and South Korea, India has relied less on borrowing from private international banks.

"Still, the sanctions could have enormous political significance that could ripple through India's economy," the New York Times said.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:18 - ID#24135)
Palladium is funny...
Brother Oris ..
I agree with all you say and I
think Palladium no longer has a
bright future .. but then Im wrong
a lot.
Also I think RJ is right when he
say "I zink it vill rise above zee
platinum, yes" ( he reminds me of
Peter Lorre.. dont know why.. )

(Wed May 13 1998 03:25 - ID#340302)
@GOOSEMAN...70,000 Ounces moved into COMEX eligible...
...on the one hand, as you hypothesized, it suggests "someone" wants to sell "his" gold in expectation of lower prices....


...maybe "someone" is trying to make sure there is sufficient eligible available for "someone" who is planning a very large future purchase??

Again, I am amused by gold investors focus on the sales side ( rather than the purchase side ) of any fundamental gold market development.

Remember the recent Belgian gold market sale...for once, the words "gold sale" failed to strike fear in gold investors' hears once it became clear that the sale was made to another central bank at a gold price premium.

Mr. Gooseman...ALWAYS consider the PURCHASE aspect of any gold sale! You should know that by now.

Think about the purchase aspect of the eligible increase and...??????




John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:25 - ID#24135)
for a.j.
I love that word.. I knew a girl
like that once .. still trying to
locate her.
Like you said .. dont knock it if
you haven't tried it.

(Wed May 13 1998 03:27 - ID#340302) guess is that ....
...Mr. Another will return when gold is over $400 an ounce.

I expect to hear from him in the not-too-distant future.




John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 03:29 - ID#24135)
Gold/silver Ratio
for Donald..
if you go back farther .. you'll
find the ratio MUCH higher. We are
now almost 54.

(Wed May 13 1998 03:37 - ID#233199)
F* re: your 3:07

i.e., I think the "premium" part of that Belgina "sale" / transfer speaks volumes

....... keep the faith

(Wed May 13 1998 03:38 - ID#340302)
@ALL...I do not pretend to be a great fan of Mr. Munk...
...but when the Munkman speaks and announces categorically that European CB gold sales are finished and any excess gold reserves ( above ECM requirements ) will be sequestered and guarded zealously by various Central Banks in the form of domestic reserves, then I must say that the Munkman, a good friend of Vernon Jordan, former President Bush and former Prime Minister Mulroney probably has some pretty reliable "insider" information.

What do you think?




(Wed May 13 1998 03:38 - ID#233199)
Opps: (fat fingers...) make that: "Belgian"

(Wed May 13 1998 03:41 - ID#233199)
So, India moves to the Euro right? Bombs away!!

(Wed May 13 1998 03:45 - ID#233199)
I have a hard time keeping my stomach juices in place ...
....when I think about Mulroney. BUT..... if he manages to tip his hand such that I may portect myself for once then so be it.

Any more word on the Y2K gold coin?

(Wed May 13 1998 03:48 - ID#153102)
@PH in L.A.
Apartment and condo dwellers make the best environmentalism socialists because they can practice their larceny of other people's rights in property under the illusion that they have nothing to lose. Likewise, it hardly ever occurs to boat people that their boats could someday be outlawed as harmful environmental flotsam. Similarly, but more realistically, the Enviro-Nazi elite have large spreads with big fences and security patrols. The apartment dwellers seem oblivious to the fact that when the elite Enviro-Nazis say the earth is too populated, they are talking about them as being surplus. When you get down to it, too many people are bad for the air. In the words of Pol Pot, "Everybody go to country now. City bad."

I noticed that as a condition for settlement, Minnesota required the tobacco companies to stop funding scientific research on tobacco and close their Institute. Gosh, is this like the Church telling Galileo to shut up ? It probably doesn't seem like it to the faithful. They are so sure there is nothing more to be learned that prohibiting more research is the right thing to do. But, I also noticed that it is not tobacco which the Nico-Nazi scientists have been researching. It is tobacco products. They buy them off the shelf, test, and publish. Some control. They are testing variations of herbicide and pesticide and additive and whatever in uncontrolled samples, along with variable mixtures of tobacco from around the world, and calling all of it tobacco research. Who cares if it is junk science ? It is good political science. It's the tobacco companies that are the ultimate target of this political research after all, isn't it ? The research on so-called second hand tobacco smoke is so junky I defy you to produce one rationally defensible example of it.
So, the bottom line is harmful is a label that can be authorized by the Enviro-Nazi labs on demand. Like racial research. Any publication of statistics will do. The politicians take over from there. Field political science picks up the cause from lab political science.

Under the common-law rule of decision of nuisance, if I could show your emissions were harmful to me or to my property, you had to abate your activity or move elsewhere. But, if you were there first, I could not move in next door and shut you down. Nor could I buy property on a road and demand that traffic be halted because of the noise nuisance. I was individually responsible to apprise myself of conditions before I moved in and to exercise my own free will as to whether or not I accepted them. So, if I moved to the city, I accepted alike the hazards and the benefits of city life. Any fool knows city air is not as good for you as country air. At the common-law I could not declare on arrival in the city that I was allergic to horses or horse pucky and stop the use of horses. But, I could stop your putting up a livery stable next door to me. A kind of natural order evolved according to human choice and preference. The course of this natural evolution was halted by city planning. The zone was the planning element. This was good for politicians. If they didn't like you, they could zone you out of the good stuff. And did. And do. Ask the blacks who were pillaged by urban renewal. But, it was bad for city life because it changed the city from a naturally evolving society into a political animal farm. The result is a commuter snarl and lives wasted in commuting worldwide. Some plan. Urban marxism.

It's interesting that you ask who owns the space over your land boundaries. At common-law you owned the land to the center of the earth and to the heavens. One of the first appropriations of the socialist planners was the space above land. In Boston they took everything over the third story. ( Skyscrapers, made possible by new steel and new architecture, needed to be stopped to protect exisitng interests. Skyscrapers could lease space for lower price per square foot. But, naturally, that was not the stated purpose of the regulation. ) Now, of course you pay to use the space with a campaign contribution or something.

Gee, under common-law airplanes would be trespassing in your airspace. I guess they would really have to take people's rights into consideration before they built airports. That would never do. Likewise under common-law I could not block your sun with my building against your will because sun and natural light were necessary for your health. But, not so much so nowadays, apparently. No sun companies to sue.

If the city can appropriate the space over the third story, I see no reason why the space above your land belongs to you absolutely. I think you should expect someday to have to go downtown and get a permit to rearrange your furniture. Permit fee to fund monarch butterfly care awareness campaign among other purposes.

I realize that since Ted Turner and Jane Fonda and Gorbachev and the like are beautiful people, they have a greater right to life, so it follows that the monarch butterfly should have a greater right to life than the med fly or bo-weevil. After all, they are numerous and common and not beautiful. Sort of like your typical apartment dwellers when you think about it. I think if the monarch butterfly is on your land, it is your property, not the State's property. I think you have the right to protect your property. I think if you prevent the extinction of the monarch butterfly as a public policy you are interfering with evolution. You are claiming the wisdom and authority to plan evolution as you think it should be. Sort of macro-genetic engineering. In favor of what is beautiful to the eye of man. This is a new kind of anthropomorphism in which the nature to be worshipped is designed according to human preference.

Now, I like the idea of some monarch butterflys in the world well enough that I would probably chip in to buy the mating ground for a nature conservancy. Then, I could be sure they would not be sacrificed to political expediency when something valuable is discovered underneath the mating ground. As things are, however, the State may still put a road, a railroad, a pipeline, a power line, or a defense plant there. Maybe we just ought to focus on stopping government from being harmful to the environment.

(Wed May 13 1998 03:50 - ID#340302)
@ALL...the last time Soros created a currency crisis... Britain ( late '92 ) , his "disruptive" actions acted as a notable catalyst in the creation of the gold bull of '93.


May 13, 1998

Soros Said to Be Betting Against Sterling Again


George Soros, the man who broke the Bank of England six years ago, is said to be betting against the pound sterling once again. Does that mean it's deja vu for currency investors?

In September 1992, Soros Fund Management sold huge amounts of sterling in the belief that its value, then artificially pegged to other European currencies, was wildly excessive.
Soros wound up right and turned an estimated $1 billion profit in a matter of weeks.

Is history repeating itself? Will the pound once again get crushed under Soros' selling pressure?

No and no, currency experts say. "It is not 1992 all over again," said John McCarthy, senior vice president of ING Barings Capital Markets in New York. "The economic conditions today are different, and the structure of foreign exchange is different. Sterling is not going to collapse."

That does not mean the currency will not weaken. Sterling has had a solid run recently.
In the last year, it is up 20 percent against most of the major European currencies; it has risen 40 percent against the mark since 1995 and settled Tuesday at 2.9009 against the mark, about 7 percent off its March 31 high.

Soros never discusses his trades. But if he has a bet against sterling, it is almost certainly a response to its recent strength.

The pound is nowhere near its 1992 levels. Sterling had just joined the European exchange-rate mechanism, an agreement that kept European currencies relatively stable vs. one another. But its value was unsustainably high. After Soros' sales hit, "Nobody knew where it could fall to," McCarthy recalled, and the currency plummeted.

That is not the case today. Significant gains made by hedge funds in sterling this year make the currency vulnerable to some profit taking but not a rout.

The fundamentals that have made sterling popular are beginning to change. Its strength has partly resulted from relatively high yields in Britain. A one-year sterling deposit yields 7.25 percent compared with a 1.75 percent yield on the same investment denominated in Swiss francs. While other yields in Europe have fallen recently -- Italy's rates have fallen to 5 percent from 12 percent -- Britain's remain high.

While some investors thought Britain's central bank might raise rates, a weakening British economy makes that less likely. A sharp slowdown in gross domestic product growth to 1.9 percent this year suggests there will be no tightening in monetary policy anytime soon. That means less fresh money going into sterling.

Another favorable influence on sterling had been uncertainty about the euro, which will replace the currencies of 11 countries in the European Union next January. As long as the euro was on the drawing board, fund managers preferred the relative safety of sterling or Swiss francs, whose countries will not immediately participate in the euro. Now that details of the euro have been resolved, participating countries look much more stable, which has caused some selling in sterling.

Even so, a 1992-style free fall seems unlikely.

McCarthy said, "Somebody's simply coming in and saying this currency is overvalued."

(Wed May 13 1998 04:09 - ID#340302)
@And Now I Must Say Farewell....
...sadly, the gold technicians continue to maintain their hegemony and extraordinary influence over beleaguered, slavish, fretful gold investors. Announcements of 200 day moving averages, stochastics, polynomials, and other such esoterica ensure one thing...

...when THE fundamental event arises that shakes this gold market out of its slumber, then owing to the essentially illiquid, diminutive nature of the gold market, by the time many investors climb back aboard the gold rocket, they will have missed a good deal of the upside movement.

Oh, Yowsah.



( Probably will post again in another week...sorry it will not be sooner, LGB! However, I thank you in advance for all your inevitable, plentiful compliments ) .

(Wed May 13 1998 04:12 - ID#358318)
ANOTHER is R. D. - NOT! ANOTHER is (see below...)
Mr. R. D. - ANOTHER suspect - is a Professor of economics with a long list of published works. He did say on November 17, 1997 that Asia may be on the verge of a "great depression", because of a shaky Japanese banking system and a weak, indecisive government.

He also said, elsewhere:
"There must be no doubt that Japan is teetering on the verge of a
1930s-style collapse of financial institutions, confidence and economic
activity. Taking measures to prevent this is "very difficult." "

This does perhaps sound like a kitcoite... HOWEVER,
Steve Peutz has noted that said Professor has called for a Keynsian
'aggressive expansionary monetary policy' in Germany, to forestall
recession, and also said that German monetary policy has been too tight
and that too much focus is being put on deficit reduction as part of
efforts to achieve monetary union in Europe.

According to Peutz, the Professor's plan would make the German 'debt
trap' even larger. Does this sound like a recommendation from ANOTHER?
Loosen monetary policy and to hell with the deficit? As our esteemed

Now let's "think long and hard" about Professor R D's fix for Japan:
"Japan needs a vigorous market economy; the old model is dead. Over the
next two decades the government requires a gigantic amount of money to
meet its liabilities. More taxes can't deliver that. They would merely
crash the economy as we saw last year. The right answer is a vast
expansion of taxpayers and economic activity--the supply side. That is
what the U.S. did in the early 1980s--pay for a bank clean-up and big
deficits through supply-side economics. Patently it has worked, since
America enjoys both full employment and a balanced budget. "

Does this sound like advice from ANOTHER? Massive GOVERNMENT SPENDING,
running up the DEBT? Has America has done the right thing? Has the US really got a balanced budget? Check the national debt web page.

Does the Professor have anything to say about gold or gold standards? I
don't know, but there isn't much on the internet. In fact he advised
people to buy into Asia, saying at Davos:

"The gainers will be those who take big-time risk buying up assets.
Don't wait! If you missed the last one, get in now. It's a bargain."
This sounds suspiciously like buying on the dips in a bear market. Does
this sound like the philosophy of ANOTHER? Is there "blood in the streets" yet? Maybe in Indonesia, not in S. Korea!

"If Mexico wants to change, it should give up the peso and adopt the
dollar as its currency."- Does ANOTHER have much time for the dollar? When have you heard ANOTHER say "Use the dollar as your currency"!

Could such a Professor be inclined to spread disinformation contrary to
his normal inclinations, by posting in the guise of ANOTHER? The
Professor is suggested as a German in the USA- however, ANOTHER's
writing has clear suggestions of Arabian, or non-Western origin:

"A good view from you, sir! A fine Arabian horse is much the same."
"You and all western minds must weight this offer as it is heavy for
your side!"

How would the Professor stand to benefit, by promoting gold in the
manner of ANOTHER? Has he strings being pulled by links through the Fed?
Or perhaps someone else wishes us to think so?
Prudence dictates that we consider ANOTHER's contributions as a starting
point and do our own research on the subjects raised.

How about some relevant excerpts posted on kitco from Mr R D's publications, so that we may see for ourselves. I'm not aware of any internet copies:

"Aspects of Oil and International Financial Markets"
"The Gold Standard: Comment"
"An International Gold Standard Without Gold: Comment"
"The Effects of OECD Macroeconomic Policies on Non-Oil LDCs: A Review"
"The Bretton Woods International Monetary System: Comment"
"Currency Crises and Collapses"

The true identity of ANOTHER?

There are probably dozens of ANOTHERs out there who can be identified by
looking at circumstancial evidence. For example, I found the following:

A teacher, whose words have interesting resonances with
ANOTHER's writing...

This teacher has a non-western sounding name, is
based in the USA, is a prolific computer/internet user, has worked as a
systems analyst, claims to have had 5 careers, makes extensive use of
discussion lists, has been published in the New York Times and other
places including .gov websites, and is director of a non-profit

This institute is modelled after a "Caravanserai" model,
named after the oasis points on Middle Eastern trade routes where camel
caravans stopped to exchange goods and prepare for the next journey.

Here are some interesting ANOTHER-ish phrases that he uses:

"more and more "high end" uses of the internet take up more and more of
our consciousness ( as measured by lines of discussion ) . We didn't
seem to be a "friendly" space. We need to think long and hard on this one. "

"Pay the dues to deal with the masters ( the giants upon whose SHOULDERS shoulders *they* have stood ) ..."

"we can learn from one another as never before in history."

"To reach the stars, aim at the Sun!"

"The heaviest talents you see on the net are ( usually ) approachable,
and as people get to know one another, by their thoughts and works,
evermore "stars" come into view."

Interesting, yes? But there are probably plenty of other suspects to be found. My view of ANOTHER is that he is either

( 1 ) A person from the Middle East, most likely Saudi Arabia, but could be UAE, any of the Trucial States, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Iran, N or S Yemen. There are one or two prime suspects known from previous discussions on this forum.

( 2 ) A government agent ( whose government? ) aiming to spread disinformation, probably against the US, or representing a powerful corporation whose interests in oil or gold stand to benefit by talking up gold and trashing the US$. The "gold for oil" idea has been linked with a plot before.

The field is probably still wide open...

(Wed May 13 1998 04:19 - ID#340344)
If someone were to comment on *'s insulting remarks directed
at A Goose, we would probably have to endure scrolling past a
post of far greater length than the offending one. I was
enjoying the break from the farfelonious drivel. Dang.
He's baaaaack. Somebody will probably point out to him his
faulty logic, and then we'll be treated to the egomercials.

(Wed May 13 1998 04:20 - ID#316193)
Asian Signals Tonight Portend a Terrible Day on Wall Street!

Hong Kong down 3.15%
Indonesia down 7.57% ( this is not a typo. )
Singapore down 6.03%

(Wed May 13 1998 04:23 - ID#252391)
CDE goodby
CDE has looked particularly poor since its double top at 13+. From being a leader it has turned into a laggard. Interesting to me is the point that this change occurred about the same time they issued their annual report. A considerable waste of paper. As one poster pointed out it could be used a a blanket for one who had lost everything on this company so adept, apparently, at wasting money.

Perhaps the gap at 9 1/4 will hold - that another 10% down, equal to probalby another 4% lower in silver or 25 cents - seems we are headed int that direction.

I repeat what I have been asking WHAT can make gold and silver go up. Farfle suggested a weaker dollar yes but we don't have a weaker dollar and when on days we have gold hasn't ralled.

From a timing standpoint I suggest we will see a pop of a rally after the consumer price index is released this week which will follow the procducer price index which will show deflation ( not inflation ) is the order of the day. Why would one buy gold with dollars? As a hedge against what that is happening? Why would buy silver - because Buffett bought silver - I'm not buying Coke or Gillette or McDonalds Hamburgers. Oh yes I would buy silver because there is such a supply demand imbalance. Have you heard of recession. Demand for flatwear, jewelry doesn't rise during recession nor do as many people snap pictures. Oh yes, batteries - remeber that rally??? There seems to be plenty of silver around to satisfly Buffett's and all other speculators and users demand.

Going sdown after a mid week bounce . . . .

(Wed May 13 1998 04:33 - ID#252391)
When - Frafel
When that rocketing event occurs that blasts gold off out of is downing slumber those not on board will miss the ride - WHEN and what, Farfel. Always hearing this - you'll miss the ride if you're not already in. In the last 20 years of looking at markets I can not recall ONE that ended a major bear market, turned on a dime and leap 10-20% without clearning the bids. Come back in a few weeks and gold will be lower than it is today and you won't have missed any fireworks, but probably some boredom. and frustration.

(Wed May 13 1998 04:35 - ID#340302)
@CHASABAR...hey, I thought you said you never read my posts...

But, you must take note of one thing...I feel great fondness for Mr. Goose. After all, Kitco posters owe a great deal of thanks to both Goose and Arden for providing substantive facts regarding physical gold inventories.

The information is invaluable.



(Wed May 13 1998 04:56 - ID#340344)
Hey, I read some of your posts. Some really add a lot, as do those of
A Goose, Arden, and jillions of others. But really, no need for the
condescension aimed at A Goose. And your logic in that instance does
not fit. Hey, I heard that New York will be terrorized by a very
large reptile. Half lizard, half ego. Go, be famous. Go for the Gold.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 05:12 - ID#24135)
Chauvinist ??? cmon bluto
For Donald ..
I make that ratio over 54.5 now.
Silver sure knows how to fall...
can plats be finding a LITTLE
support ??

For Farfel
You got me all wrong bluto ..
I'm almost out of RSA golds .. and
I find out from southsayer son have
been in sp calls for a little ..

To all .. there are signs of life
in sagging US buck .. If so look out
gold.. lookout silver ( although even
I can see it falling much below 5..
but then Im wrong a lot )

(Wed May 13 1998 05:25 - ID#153102)
@The Goldbug's Fate
The credo of the goldbug might be taken from Milton's line: "They also serve who only stand and wait." Something like, they also serve who lose their shirt while waiting.

But, what is the goldbug waiting for ? Besides the payoff. The goldbug is waiting, I think, for the natural order to assert itself. It is an implied belief of goldbugs that the market is a force of nature. This is a belief so deep that even after the evidence of manipulation has become overwhelming, the naturalist students of markets still apply tools and techniques developed for freely traded markets to the gold market.

Of course, global socialism or nazism operates to manage the movement of supply, demand, and price. The goldbug believes nature will prevail. Being a goldbug is kind of like waiting for the Mississippi river to break loose of the constraints of dams and levees constructed by the Army Corps of Engineers. It's going to happen someday, but in the meantime the USG is spending zillions to stop it. Fortunately for goldbugs, gold is a good deal stronger than the Mississippi. Also, nobody is going around sabotaging levees. The same cannot be said about the artificial constraints on gold.

Time is the goldbug's friend because the course of fiat debt currency is linear and irreversible. The debt accummulated against the $US is a pretty good sized debt trap. As long as the overseas part of it stays overseas as CB reserves and pocket change for cash dealers, it is not a burden. But, the politicians in America have killed their golden egg laying goose with deficit politics and exported inflation. Apolitical gold is simply the better reserve currency. Natural selection is winning out.

The number of people in America who know gold is money is probably larger than usually estimated. But, the number of those who think gold ought to replace greenbacks today is miniscule. Gold as money means the end of social security. It means having to write off all those forced contributions as sunk cost. It's going to take a crisis to wean the American people from the greenback. Y2K could do it if it happens as badly as it may. If Treasury defaults, bye bye to full faith and credit as a borrowing tool. Bye bye to social security as a political tool. You never know what direction natural selection will take ahead of time. If you did, it wouldn't be natural selection.

(Wed May 13 1998 05:31 - ID#290118)
I welcome critiques of the following idea here or to
Since we often here get into socio-economic philosophical discussions:

Fiat or digital money, as a "store of value", reflects {in some proportion} the labour and intellectual effort that went into its acquisition. As such it represents a future draft on labour or intellectual effort. It is not, in and of itself, an embodiment of the human effort {physical and mental} that went into its production since it doesn't take much effort to print money or creat digital numbers.

GOLD or any commodity, unlike the above "money" embodies the mental and physical labour that produced it. The best store of such labour is one that cannot easily be destroyed.

GOLD can be hammered, melted, and pulverized but still stores the labour that made it. If it is vaporized or turned it to dust and spread thinly over the land then the effort that went into finding, mining and refining it is effectively undone or wasted.

SILVER which is "consumed" performs the service of transfering labour invested in one place and time {mining & refining} to another place in time {photography}. What business is the silver miner in? In actuality the answer is photography {or even further down the line - communication of ideas}.

OTHER commodities, such as fine wooden furniture, also embody the mental and physical skill and effort that produced it. Using that furniture takes advantage of the labour embodied therein. Burning of that furniture for heat wastes most of that labour except that which raised the tree, cut the wood and transported it to the fireplace - in which case it is worth only 5 cents per pound. Breaking the furniture and thowing it in the landfill effectively wastes all the effort that went into making it {and then some because of the additional effort of breaking and hauling it}.

WHAT DOES THIS ALL HAVE TO DO WITH STOCKS? Essentially this - we are producing more intellectual and physical fruits than we are consuming. We are consuming a lot but what we are paying, in market prices, does not reflect the value we get from it. A Post-it note may cost one penny but we may get a nickel worth of value from it. Someone down the line benefits from that extra 4 cents of value. They may spend some of it but they pass most of it along the line. Eventually someone along the line accumulates so much value they can not conspicuously consume it all. Much of it ends up in the stock market - for lack of anywhere else to put it!

WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO ABOUT OR WITH OUR EXCESS INTELLECTUAL AND PHYSICAL PRODUCTION? Historically wars dealt with the excess production by 1 ) cutting production and 2 ) wasting or destroying it. Using drugs or alcohol, watching TV or sports, playing mindless games, entertainment in general, bureacratic regulations and paper chases, and politics among others effectively inhibit or waste valuable effort.

WE COULD DEVELOP MORE TECHNOLOGY AND ACQUIRE MORE KNOWLEDGE. But this unfortunately only exacerbates the problem. We develop even more intellectual capital and save more physical labour which we must then burn off somehow because we cant use it all.

GOLD can not absorb it - there simply is not enough of it. Its price would skyrocket - making all goldbugs ecstatic. But what can we do with it anyway? Dig it up and bury it again?

The STOCK MARKET can not ( we dont think ) continue to absorb it without blowing a cork.

Like a hyperactive,intellectually gifted child - we have to find something for him or her to DO {given we dont wish to inhibit them with narcotics - TV, etc.}

Of course there is always WAR. But cant we find a better relief valve?

WE NEED ANOTHER FRONTIER such as space, the planets and the stars. We must direct our exess energies outward towards a frontier or inward toward better understanding ourselves. Again - with both endeavors, barring wars or excessive narcotic use - we will still find ourselves with excess human energy to burn.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 05:32 - ID#24135)
Is it as bad as that ?
Wasnt japan steady ?? are the european
markets ok ?? The world is not so swayed
by southeast asia .. I think.

(Wed May 13 1998 05:39 - ID#230376)
APH may be correct....

Gold-silver-platinum are all oversold and due to bounce.....but can go lower on a very,very short term basis. Wall Street wants to make new highs and will get there on the "flight to quality'' talk-it-up B.S. as usual.The FTSE is UP...Japan ended higher... the NYSE "specialists" will get it done in this contrived conviluted market.

(Wed May 13 1998 05:47 - ID#230376)
Wise words........


John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 05:55 - ID#24135)
Good one ..
I think a lot of reflection went into Your posting.
Gold ( and antiques and works of art ) represent sensible
stores of value.
Paper or electric money can be an effective medium of
exchange but its use ends there. Paper debt always
includes the certainty that sooner or later the thing
blows up and becomes worthless.
The problem with gold as a store of wealth is that
it does not generate income .. or at least the ILLUSION
of income as do paper debt instruments.
I personally have begun to believe that the future
of gold will lie in backing NOT paper currency BUT
paper debt instruments. Backing paper currency with
gold at this stage is simply a cosmetic fraud of
varying degree .. ie 90% fraud 80 % fraud or pure
fraud. I think I even like pure fraud best. You know
where you stand.

(Wed May 13 1998 05:57 - ID#153102)
Lots of good thoughts there, but you lost me in your valuation of postits. If you want a new frontier, sell stock. I don't want to pay for it in exactions.

Speaking of consuming, anecdotal evidence is that the American consumer is about tapped out. I guess personal debt can sink you as deeply as public debt.

The stock market bubble is more a function of tax policy than usually recognized, I think. It is the only place you can park greenbacks and store value for the future without paying taxes in the present. That is why it is the preferred store of value at the moment.

(Wed May 13 1998 06:02 - ID#287312)
Gold turn around ?
The only sure fire way I know of to turn Gold around is for ( me ) to sell. ( :{ ) Happens every time.

(Wed May 13 1998 06:03 - ID#153102)
It would clarify my last post somewhat if I mention that inflation is the universal tax. In a rising stock market you avoid the inflation tax and the conventional tax. So, it is by far and away the best store of value. So long as it rises.

(Wed May 13 1998 06:10 - ID#153102)
I like your notion of the future of gold being to back up debt instruments.
Such as checks.

Bully Beef
(Wed May 13 1998 06:38 - ID#259282)
Disheartened. Oh well ! Hang on to your hats. This ride ain't over yet.
200 dollar gold might be a wise investment if the Flu becomes virilent.

(Wed May 13 1998 06:39 - ID#340459)
The Reality is Gold and PM's are tanking. It looks bleak to me as it hits the pocketbook. Let us not
kid ourselves with wild anticipation of $ 30,000/oz Gold around the corner. I will be happy to see $ 320 Gold.

(Wed May 13 1998 06:46 - ID#340459)
I have had enough of buying opportunities...
Nobody believes in Gold anymore. Not CB's, Not Mines through their forward sales, Nor the majority of The Investors or Investment houses.
People have been thinking that Nukes will raise POG. There is little value of holding Gold or Paper or Yahoo if one is nuked...

(Wed May 13 1998 07:11 - ID#252391)
Farfel's Sentiment index
If Farfel were to do his sentiment index tonihgt he'd get about a 10 on the bearish scale. Funny how that happens when prices fall. I am beginning to think that eventually if the stock market continues to rally and gold and silver fall that at some point the later will stabalize because it represents less risk.

Speaking of risk - South African Golds down a cool 5% tonight, erasing their last two days of gains and then some.

Suspect there will be a little rally from a lower low around the release of the CPI. Unfortunately, doubt this dead cat will bounce very high.

Tired of negativity - look at Plat and Palladium

(Wed May 13 1998 07:16 - ID#419147)
Squirrel (I welcome critiques of the following idea here
How about cleaning some ghost cities, recycle some dump sites, stoping some runoff of soil and so on first??

The point is that due to population increase there is less and less recreational land, natural resources ( eg. timber ) and so on per capita, thats why some guys cheat to get a form of nice house at Pasific coast.


Go to library and chechk out some historians work on old Sumer civilization. They archived a lot, specifically historical events, population and grain production.

The periods of wars match one to one with periods of DROPS in grain production, reasons irrelevant ( drought, flood, salination of soils ) .

Wars have never been fought to destroy value, the purpose has always been to obtain some extra with force. The World Wars were over coal and steel for example : )


(Wed May 13 1998 07:25 - ID#26793)
That was an excellent post at 5:31. I think you are forgetting the main point of gold. Gold permits the convenient and honest division of labor. Without an honest division of labor there will eventually be no production of any kind except that which can be done through barter. Fiat money works toward the destruction of the division of labor.

(Wed May 13 1998 07:31 - ID#341189)
gold price?
There seem to be several prices of gold quoted this morning. The most likely one seems to be 295.70 on ABCNET.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 07:33 - ID#24135)
Wait a minute Mozel
For Mozel ..
I wasnt gonna go THAT far .. Only
interest bearing debt instruments.
My checks dont pay interest .. If
they did, I'd write another check.
I learned that from the US Gomment.

(Wed May 13 1998 07:34 - ID#286230)
Get a Grip Guys
Gold can not go below its cost of production for long--it certainly can for a while. Since many of the higher cost mines are closed and others on the brink of closing the current +/-$300 price must be close
to production cost. I think the production cost is the one that counts--it isn't likely storage costs for the tonnes above ground. So unless you bought on margin or put all your money into PM's this is a time to relax and wait for the unknowable TIME for the price to rise. At this point only thing can go wrong--you die before the price rises to your dreams.

Some of the despair undoubtedly comes from reading Kitco and similar sites and publications filled daily with the detailed, complicated and authoritative views of those who think they can see the Timing of future events or want you to think they can. Such prophesies are best considered after the event--nobody yet knows how to see the future and to think that someone can tell you the timing of the next rise or fall in the POG is to set yourself up for disappointment and financial disaster.

(Wed May 13 1998 07:54 - ID#284255)
Dow pessure = gold pressure
Perchance this fall in 'my precious' is a portent for the Dow's demise.
Are we at the precipice - yet?

I believe that there is a relationship between gold and paper.

That the closer we get to the paper crash
The more pressure they will bring to bear upon gold.

After the pressures of the Dow have been released
Then gold will take off on the greatest bull run
Ever witnessed by woman or man.

Untill that point in time it just gets cheaper
Last buying oportunity of a lifetime coming up.

(Wed May 13 1998 07:56 - ID#26793)
Indonesia on the brink of full revolt.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:03 - ID#252391)
Selby - your recent post
Excellent points - very well worth remebering.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:05 - ID#26793)
Silver at 5 month low; expecting Buffett to support his position.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:09 - ID#248180)
@Buying Opportunity - Sharefin @ 07:54
Right On Mate, Accumulate

(Wed May 13 1998 08:15 - ID#284255)
To protect one's family and one's gold - life and assets
I'm in shark infested waters with today's topic. However, I've done
my best to address today's topic with balance in spite of my personal
opinion. I hope I've succeeded.

I'm a professing Christian, and I own guns. Many Christians and
non-Christians alike disagree with my perspective. These same people
usually don't mind the fact that we Americans have a tax payer
supported professional army policing the globe and armed police force
of 640,000+ in our own country. They don't mind if others carry a gun
on their behalf, in fact they pay for it through their taxes.

I consider it my duty to protect and provide for my family. It is my
conviction that gun ownership is part of that charge. I will not
remain unarmed so those with no moral code can inflict theft,
violence, and murder on the defenseless. If you're not interested in
owning guns and don't have this same conviction, that is your
prerogative. I respect your right to disagree with me on this issue;
however, please thoughtfully consider the following issues.

In the very possible scenario of Y2k chaos, police protection may not
be sufficient or readily available. The Department of Justice found
that in 1989 there were 168,881 crimes of violence which were not
responded to by police within 1 hour. Do you think things have become
safer in the last decade? Do you think post 2000 chaos will speed up
police responsiveness?

If Y2k results in urban rioting, the US Army or State National Guard
units can only enforce martial law in a limited number of locations
( not that this is a good thing ) . In the absence of police or military
"protection," how are you going to protect your family?

I mentioned the 1992 LA riots in yesterday's post.
A subscriber sent me the following in response:
You should see Lou Cannon's 600+ book on the whole Rodney King saga, "Official Negligence."
The story of the unpleasantness is pretty scary:
- The LAPD was wholly unprepared for chaos even though they had ample warning.
- Commissioner Gates even left work after the riots started -- to go to a political fundraiser!
- President Bush nationalized the guard -- and nobody could agree what to do with them.

Dozens of people died. In short, it was screwed up. The book also goes into detail about those much-heralded Korean shopkeepers.

[For those who don't remember, several Korean shopkeepers in the
middle of the riot zone were able to defend their stores and families
from the rioting violence. They owned guns.]
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed." - Amendment II, U.S. Constitution
Americans in the United States have a Constitutional right to bear
arms. Gun ownership is not a privilege; it is a Constitutional right
in the USA. I'm not sure about what gun rights those of you in other
countries represented on this list may have. However, most of you on
this list live in the USA and have the right to own a gun.

Gun ownership is a very personal decision. I respect those who make a
personal choice to not own a gun, as long as they don't infringe on my
Constitutional rights. I'm not against pacifism, nor am I
pro-violence. I eschew the use of force ( I lean very libertarian in
my politics if you couldn't tell ) , but neither will I sit idle while a
violent criminal attempts to harm my wife, children, or peaceful

Y2k Weatherman tips:
If you're already a gun owner, load up on ammo. ( .22 caliber ammo is
a great barter item. ) If you're not a gun owner, but have been
considering it, now is a good time to make a balanced, well informed

If you're a conscientious objector to gun ownership, I hope you live
in a safe place. No matter what your position, we need to pray for
the safety of our communities as we enter these potentially turbulent

P.S. Before conscientious objectors to gun ownership send me rebuttal
email, please review the following web site:

Crystal Ball
(Wed May 13 1998 08:16 - ID#287367)
You invest in GOLD for the right reason- a history thousands of years long of being THE store of value- incorruptible, incorrosible, indestructible... Then you whine about every short-term rut in the road. Be assured that when the paper is dust and the dust has settled, GOLD will still be there to comfort you.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:16 - ID#26793)
Hong Kong fears a currency attack as economy weakens.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:27 - ID#284255)
Aussie Dollar plumeting - British Pound up

I heard indirectly that the HK$ was under attack today.
Reported on OZ radio.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:30 - ID#342315)
Squirrel re your 5:31 New Frontier
Underground is still a big frontier, Here in N.C. I can get more good potential than I can handle. Anybody interested in gold prospecting, I'll be glad to help or help learn. Thanx, Charlie

John B__A
(Wed May 13 1998 08:41 - ID#17470)
Carl - latest on gold
London silver fixed at 5 month low, gold down
Reuters, Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 08:36

SILVER - Continues to weaken, fixes at day's, and five-month,low $5.46/ounce, some buying below $5.50. Awaits New York.
GOLD - Stable around $296/ounce after absorbing sales prompted by silver sell-off.
PLATINUM - Little changed at $384.00/386.00.
PALLADIUM - Likewise little moved at $335.00/345.00.

Copyright 1998, Reuters News Service

(Wed May 13 1998 08:52 - ID#373284)
The globe is falling apart financially and socially and people are still wondering
about gold and silver!?!?!? Every time they move down I buy, they move down more, I buy more and look to increase my position in specific mining shares. I see gold as a fabulous opportunity at anything under $320.00 - silver under $5.50 is also an opportunity.

When the move comes it will be swift. If you believe in the metals buy. If you are already in, sit tight, time is oh so short and the water is rising to ark levels.

When the time comes you won't need an analyst to explain things to you.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:55 - ID#373284)
Oh yeah, although it has not been said. In addition to Suharto, the people in
Indonesia are making it clear. They are saying shove it, to the US and IMF. This feeling is growing in many areas around the world.

The Coward Erect and Camdesuss the dog defiler, what a team for world stability.

(Wed May 13 1998 08:56 - ID#342315)
tolerant 1 re yours Monday, crafting
Your friend who can craft metals. Can he cast or stamp coins? TIA, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 09:09 - ID#288369)
oh shit.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:10 - ID#284255)
India - nukes on
Report on TV that India has let off a further two nuclear bombs, similiar to the prvious ones.

FOCUS-Anglogold, Barrick join up to seek Africa gold

(Wed May 13 1998 09:15 - ID#284255)
INSTANT VIEW-US stocks to open lower after data - PPI data

(Wed May 13 1998 09:21 - ID#373284)
chas - I think he should be able to cast coins, he should have my medallion
ready this Thursday, necklace piece, it is a two ounce gold piece, a moon face on one side and a sun face on the other. He is utilizing cuttle ( spelling? ) fish bone to pour it into. As to stamping a coin I would think not. As far as I know you need an intense press with zillions of square inch pressure to stamp a really good coin.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:21 - ID#411163)
Sharefin-Guns and freedom
I couldn't agree more with you on gun ownership. I keep about 6000
rounds for the dozen that I own. I have carried for 20 years and they have come to my rescue several times. In my younger years I shot 600 rounds a week and could empty a .357 in under 1 second and keep the group under 2" at 20 feet. Too old now for speed but I seldom miss

(Wed May 13 1998 09:22 - ID#410215)
..... PL vs PA .....

Once again palladium is within $20 of platinum

It will rise above


Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 09:28 - ID#212323)
Probably old news around here by now...
But this is good PR for gold in general--

(Wed May 13 1998 09:30 - ID#373284)
The Coward Erect is a putz. The best US President Chinese money can buy. I find it sad that America is so stupid they did not see this coming. India has every right to defend herself.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:40 - ID#373284)
Nawaz Sharif, the Prime Minister, said: "Pakistan has the right to take any steps that are essential for its security.

Okay, if the above is a responsible comment from Pakistan, then why can't INDIA make the same exact comment about China which is already in place with troops and missles.

China was "seriously concerned" about the tests, said Zhu Bangzao, a foreign ministry spokesman, on the national state-run television news programme. The tests, he said, threatened to reverse progress made in nuclear arms reduction worldwide through implementation of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty of 1970 and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty of 1996.

Ah, yeah, if I was China I would be concerned. Their acts of an obviously military nature are being responded to and India is saying it quite clearly...F _ _ _ me, Oh no, F _ _ _ YOU!

(Wed May 13 1998 09:42 - ID#317193)
I'm getting excited-again
Can I fill on Dec. Contracts @$302.60? We'll see. Yes?


(Wed May 13 1998 09:44 - ID#26793)
I posted an opinion from an article the other day that the OZ dollar was going to 60c US.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:48 - ID#26793)
I agree with you. How can India stand by and do nothing with China and Pakistan both armed with nuclear weapons. India has already had war with both. The box was opened in 1945 and there is no way to shut it.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:50 - ID#26793)
@E.Wave fans
Remember the words of A.J. Frost. The market makes its most important tops at squares. 96 times 96 is 9216.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:52 - ID#410215)
..... Futures Contracts .....

Aztec -

Ask not I about futures, no. I trade in the physical metal, others here can give you better insight.


(Wed May 13 1998 09:53 - ID#410215)
..... ANOTHER WHAT? .....

Regarding the ANOTHER poll

He will not return

It was a HOAX people

He was also wrong

Wake up

(Wed May 13 1998 09:54 - ID#238422)
RJ(PL vs. PA)
It will fall like a rock, I mean palladium...and soon.
Sell it now..just kidding...
Go vodka and pickles.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:54 - ID#317193)
No way

(Wed May 13 1998 09:54 - ID#373284)
Donald - goodness, I can see the SUN, can you on your side of the Sound.
Of course India must defend herself, now the Coward Erect penalizes India but continues to be the best US President the Chinese military can buy. The metals will be going north sooner than later. World politics are heating up. Korea, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, China, Japan, and the perennial Middle East nightmare.

I am glad the First Bunt Cake stuck her foot in her mouth on Israel. It will be marked as the downfall of the Clintons, watch...the American Jewish community will eat her guts while she is still breathing.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:56 - ID#26793)
Beautiful sunny day here, nice breeze, makes the water sparkle.

(Wed May 13 1998 09:59 - ID#373284)
Aztec - FWIW - this is not the market to be starting to trade in futures and options,
you should buy physical or stocks like PAASF, FSR, in silver, GEO, FN.TO, DROOY, in gold...the best PGM stock in NA is SWC...IMHO...good luck...


(Wed May 13 1998 10:00 - ID#26793)
Intel warns Japan; buy our chips or else.......

(Wed May 13 1998 10:00 - ID#426220)

"JOHANNESBURG, May 13 ( Reuters ) - South Africa's Anglogold Ltd ( ANGJ.J ) and Canada's Barrick Gold Corp ( ABX.TO - news ) said on Wednesday they would join forces to explore lucrative gold properties on the African continent."

Very pertinent reports related to the rationale why Barrick Gold is seeking gold properties in South Africa are located at the following websites. It will be necessary to delete the space in front of the word "-eagle" before pasting the URL to your Internet locator:>>>

(Wed May 13 1998 10:02 - ID#342315)
Just saw a Maury P. show with a "mentalist" who proved himself very well. One event was for him to detect true or false by watching some tv. 3 shots, Clinton, Ramseys and OJ. They all presented antics of "FALSE"

(Wed May 13 1998 10:05 - ID#426220)

Delete space in front of word "-eagle:"

(Wed May 13 1998 10:06 - ID#26793)
Widespread looting, arson in Jakarta; Chinese shops, banks, are target.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:08 - ID#238422)
Your post is good, and it's not only in regard to
potential of Y2K violence. Every normal human being
must be prepared at all times to protect him ( her ) self
and the family in the most effective way possible.
Gunownership is one of the most ( if not the only )
way to do it.

I do have a disagreement with you - you said you respect
people who choosed not to own guns, primarily because
they hope to get timely help from somebody else, and
I think that these people are stupid, period. No respect
from me, but I do have an understanding of their weakness...

(Wed May 13 1998 10:10 - ID#373284)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, if the IMF is a wing of the NWO, Hmmmmmmmm, and you
wanted to start a war, Hmmmmmmmmmmm, you would have everybody back the IMF in telling all these countries suffering severe economic downturns to tighten their belts and act responsibly.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...well, I have said it before and here we go again...


(Wed May 13 1998 10:15 - ID#410215)
..... PL to the moon .....

WWith all this talk of gold and property rights

Did anybody buy any platinum?

I have been preaching its merits

And it is now up $18

Today it will recover the losses of the last two weeks

While gold will lie there like a wet carpet

People are making $ in platinum



(Wed May 13 1998 10:15 - ID#373284)
As of yet my friend I have not gotten the email. Just wanted to let you know...

(Wed May 13 1998 10:16 - ID#372262)
Quit wasting precious bandwith with your incessant "just kidding" babble! There are some of us on this thread who are fed up with "Oris" and his pickle, palladium BS! Just kidding--NOT!

(Wed May 13 1998 10:16 - ID#375108)
PD Rocket Fuel
Anyone else watching the SWC fireworks this morning?? {;- )

(Wed May 13 1998 10:19 - ID#410215)
..... Palladium's 15 minutes .....

Surrogate brother oris -

I agree palladium will fall like a rock, but not before the June squeeze.

Platinum will go up and stay up

It will be so

Uh Huh

(Wed May 13 1998 10:20 - ID#342315)
Tolerant1 re your 10:10
You have great perception. It looks like a set up to me too. Where do we go from Here? ( an honest question ) , Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 10:21 - ID#410215)
..... WWith .....

Looks like I'm s-s-s-stuttering


(Wed May 13 1998 10:22 - ID#372262)

(Wed May 13 1998 10:22 - ID#228100)
Sharefin - Thanks for the Y2K Site
I hadn't seen that one. I am also a firm believer in GUN CONTROL. Thats why I prefer lighter rounds, such as a .223 to something larger, such as a 7.62x54. ( Anyone have a preference for Colt over Bushmaster? )

Last month, I interviewed with a large insurance company ( top 25 in the USA ) . They were looking for a manager to come in and ensure that all of their systems were ready for Y2K. ( Like most companies, they havent really even BEGUN to assess this issue yet. ) About a year ago, they took a 30 year old programmer and promoted him to Y2K Project Manager. He spends most of his time looking at code and preparing Powerpoint presentations. And the company president wonders why nothing is happening.

This Y2K issue is going to leave our economy in a heck of a mess. But it will be great news for PMs!!

(Wed May 13 1998 10:23 - ID#410215)
..... The rise of the industrial whites .....

Spot palladium up 44

Spot platinum up 19

Good day

Uh Huh

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 10:24 - ID#24135)
Rude Words for no reason ..
Cage Rattler..
From someone calling himself
"Golden prophet" to Oris. Are YOU
going to do anything about it ????

(Wed May 13 1998 10:25 - ID#212197)
@tolerant1: Thanks for pointing me to the right Web Page Yesterday
right now I'm at my office computer ( donwtown D.C. where all the burocrats are! ) . Yesterday evening I was at my home computer, almost 20 miles from here. I'll check later today what's going on with the e-mail.

You helped me already a lot. I saw that these coins trade from $7.50 to $4,000 and more. I rather stay away from such a purchase until I know better what I'm doing.


Alberich the Dwarf

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 10:28 - ID#24135)
More Rude words ...
Cage Rattler ..
This time to RJ and guess what ..
from the same GUY !! Are you gonna
do anything about it ?? I find this
cheap crap annoying ..

(Wed May 13 1998 10:29 - ID#410215)
..... Prophesy this .....


You can bite me pal.

Ask yourself if you want this fight. Think of yourself as the CEO of Nike, and Mike Wallace is outside your door with a 60 minutes camera crew. Do you invite him in?

Spoiling for a fight with me has the same wisdom.

I notice none of merit coming from you on these pages

If you have naught else to offer

Take your own crap elsewhere

For I am of Kitco blood, I.


Don't fight this, let it go


(Wed May 13 1998 10:30 - ID#212197)
tolerant1: what does NWO stand for ?

(Wed May 13 1998 10:33 - ID#210235)
@Golden Prophet
Brother Oris' vodka and pickle indicator has lightened this forum with humour and the best short-term calls of the past 6 months. If you want to be grumpy, go find a corrupt politician to growl about. No problem finding one.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:34 - ID#298259)
Vista Gold reports 1st quarter profit and reduces costs...

(Wed May 13 1998 10:36 - ID#31868)
New World Odor ( Order ) chas, still typing...

(Wed May 13 1998 10:37 - ID#333127)
IMHO the real potential is in the monetary metal.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:41 - ID#410114)
Sea Chanty

This is the sort of thing you like.

"How long have you been sailing, young man?"

"All me bloomin life, Sir!

Me mother was a mermaid, me father was King Neptune.

I was born on the crest of a wave, and rocked in the cradle of the deep.

Seaweed and barnacles are my clothes.

Every tooth in me head is a marline spike; the hair on me head is hemp.

Every bone in me body is a spar, and when I spits, I spits tar!

Ise hard, I is, I am, I are.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:41 - ID#213265)
@the scene
June palladium over $400. What a concept!

(Wed May 13 1998 10:42 - ID#284255)
Oris - Year2000
I never wrote the article.

I don't have a gun but might be tempted to secure one for protection.

Used to have an old 303 which was great for killing 'monsters' on the trawlers - sharks, rays etc.
But saw to many silly episodes with drunk people and guns to keep it.
Was great fun sitting on the bow blowing away sharks or tinnies.

I posted the article because of the changing perceptions of society.

Fortunately not many Aussies have guns - as yet?
Obviously a diferent way of life in the US where many see a gun as necessary for protection, even the kids at school.

Personally the world would be a better place without them but society dictates.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:42 - ID#213265)
@the scene
July platinum over $408! Now that's a change of pace!

(Wed May 13 1998 10:44 - ID#333126)
hot off the press in Sydney
more of the same from Jakarta

but notice the statement: 'In Jakarta, the Australian Ambassador, Mr John McCarthy, said: "From the information available it appears that the troops who fired on the students were not acting in self-defence."'

American Imperialism?

I smell another quick crash reminiscent of October '97 around the corner ... pure speculation and therefore imhso only ....

(Wed May 13 1998 10:44 - ID#410215)
..... Sea Chanty .....

Rob -

I like it!

I will sing this tune all day

And drive my colleagues nuts


(Wed May 13 1998 10:46 - ID#213265)
@the scene
sharefin -- All one has to do first is to re-invent people first. Also, lions and tigers and bears, oh my. They don't call guns 'equalizers' for nothin'.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:47 - ID#410215)
..... Who's got the Dramamine? .....

Every bone in me body is a spar, and when I spits, I spits tar!

To borrow from Eldo: HAR!

Heeee Heeee



(Wed May 13 1998 10:50 - ID#317193)
Brother oris please be assured that a fine bottle of vodka is available for you should severe depression descend upon you by reason of comments made by ANOTHER on this site. I was hoping to save the contents until spot reached $318 but I am willing to sacrifice my own petty needs if your self esteem is now shattered and in need of bolstering.: )

My re-entry point was spot @$295 but it bounced so quick I was left sitting on my hands. Maybe another short run down will occur? Patience, my son, patience.

Pickles on order!


(Wed May 13 1998 10:51 - ID#284255)
Spells the end of the technology cycle, just like RCA.

Not that technology will stop,
But that the great economic explosion
That has been born from this, has peaked.

One report from INTC stated; that if the internet died
It would be the end of the company.

Shows that they are finding pressure to sell.
Not enough of a market left for a company of that size.

The same should apply to motor vechiles.

Over production and over capacity.
With no buyers = death knell.

(Wed May 13 1998 10:52 - ID#31868)
excuse the ramble, but I was held back from my first gulp until 8:00a.m.
chas - now the game just start to become interesting. Clearly Russia, China and Pakistan are being told in no uncertain terms by India there is a new kid on the block and this kid is not going to take crap anymore. Whether or not this is good or bad is meaningless. It is reality. China is nearing huge economic disaster. Indonesia is there already and the seams have burst on the peoples bag of anger. Korea is a basket case and a political and social tinderbox, in a world teeming with abundance and food N. Koreans are starving to death left and right. Japan is nearing revolution as was presented in The Great Reckoning by Davidson and Rees-Mogg.

The USA has become sterile in its military position due to the Coward Erect. You have a military that is sorely in need of reorganization and most certainly demoralized due solely to the Coward Erect. Which of our fighting men and women would die for his America. We are in Europe, the ME, Asia and stretched far too thin to have a meaningful ( we do want to insure victory, or do we? ) engagement.

Africa is a cauldron of lies and hypocrisy, the people suffer, CNN and the Coward Erect along with the other despots get their media bytes. Europe is in disarray financially, politically and socially.

So what you have is a world pretending to be at peace, but there seems to be a seething under-tow of outright hatred and pent-up emotions from the BS flowing through leaders of the worlds veins and being spouted from their mouths.

In my opinion you have an opportunity for a seemingly likable, sinister, enigmatic individual to set the whole thing off to who knows where. Or, you have a situation wherein the UN saves the day and the sheeple are led by the nose into a noose known as global government.

I think America is about to undergo some severe changes socially, politically and the words will be tough and conservative. The far right will make a huge come back in the months leading up to and into the beginning of the next 100 years.

What we need is a worldly group of wise grand mothers and grand fathers to give a swift kick in the ass to the little children ( 55 and under ) and wake them up to the way things should be and that people should wake and grow the FU_K UP!

Other than that, everything is greatgulp to ya


(Wed May 13 1998 10:56 - ID#284255)
Kauri's and penknives?
Can't see the forrest for all the dam*n Kauri's around here.

Kudos to the Kauri. ( :- ) ) ) )

(Wed May 13 1998 10:58 - ID#333126)
Buffett turning bearish?
I think this news would have been sacriligous not too long ago ...

(Wed May 13 1998 11:00 - ID#269409)
Gold Report
Still mated to $300 +/- $2.00...Market is ASB

(Wed May 13 1998 11:02 - ID#410215)
..... PL + PA .....

Do people understand the role platinum is playing?

Long platinum it the only protection the palladium shorts have.

All by June, my friends

All by June


(Wed May 13 1998 11:03 - ID#20135)
I know I don't understand this political stuff as well as most on this bb, but didn't the French do alot of nuclear testing down around sharefin and aurator a year or two ago. Did Billy Boy put the hurt on thefrench at that time???

My memory may lead me astray, but I believe the Australians and Kiwi's were quit upset about the French polluting their part of the world.

Do you think clinton and company are going to move India right up their with Iraq as enemy number ONE???

Maybe Rubin and Al are mad at India because they are buying and keeping to much gold ( :&

(Wed May 13 1998 11:04 - ID#213265)
@the scene
RJ -- Makes sense to me. So, what kind of numbers do you figure we'll see on the platinum then?

(Wed May 13 1998 11:05 - ID#269409)
@ RJ....excellent call once again my friend!
Re your question earlier "did anyone buy Platinum?" ...yes indeedy, yesterday I bought a bunch of Platinum Eagles, and exhorted others to do the same at that undoubtably bargain level. Also posted that well known but lengthy post yesterday on why Platinum is such an excellent way to diversify a PM portfolio.

With Silver continuing to languish today, and Gold in it's narrow "ASB" channel, such diversification makes imminent sense no? We've got an excellent Chinese dynasty going today "Ti-Ming"

(Wed May 13 1998 11:06 - ID#317193)


(Wed May 13 1998 11:09 - ID#342315)
tolerant1 re your assesment
I can very well appreciate the gulp. Mine started at 7:30, the hip is hellish. Somehow I "knew" that's what you would say- because it's right. I agree with all the defensive measures available. However, it has ocurred to me that with what is known here ( Kitco ) about NWO, we may be able to devise some offensive moves that could be profitable. Kind of like Jeb Stuart and Stonewall's guerrila tactics. It will take some consideration, consolidation and a strategy, but I believe we can figure out their ( NWO ) moves and apply sensible trading to take advantage. I am not at the moment gifted to specify, but The idea prompting this response has got the bean moving. Thanx a bunch and a couple of gulps to ya, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 11:10 - ID#31868)
You are quite right in that Morgans are a touchy purchase unless you know the seller, and or have an excellent personal knowledge of the coins and what is worth what. ( boy, that sounds better than it writes. )

I heartily suggest you call Russ Savage at Jefferson Coin and Bullion - 800-593-2585 - tell him Kevan told you to call. He won't give you a song and dance about Morgans, he will hit you right between the eyes with the real skinny.

But you can trust Russ, I CERTAINLY do. What he has forgotten about coins I won't learn for a while yet. Give him a call, he will set you straight and point you in the right direction. I wrote this up cause the email did not get here.

Gulp to ya...


(Wed May 13 1998 11:11 - ID#29048)
Somebody dumped 3,000,000 shares and I got my order filled at 1.00. Looks like SWC was a steal at 24. oh well.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:12 - ID#333126)
more hot news from Australia
sure sounds like anarchy

sounds like they have matryrs too...

meanwhile, in defiant India ...

China -- will they devalue?

ghosts of 1997's Asian currency devaluation parties?

(Wed May 13 1998 11:14 - ID#335190)
Mergers @ FWIW
May 13, 1998

W.House to study wave of corporate mergers

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The White House is establishing a high-level group to study a recent wave of corporate mergers, an official said on Wednesday.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the group would be headed by Gene Sperling, chairman of the White House National Economic Council, and include Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and his deputy Lawrence Summers, Council of Economic Advisers chair Janet Yellen and Commerce Secretary William Daley among others.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:14 - ID#333126)
sharefin: re: INTL, MSFT

hmm... even the AFR agrees ... hehe ...

(Wed May 13 1998 11:17 - ID#213265)
@the scene
I hope that all those purchasers of platinum coins DO understand that you'll require at least a $50 dollar move up in the price to just break even 'cause you are buying at the ask and selling at the bid. Then add shipping and insurance costs if pertinent. The question then becomes how much platinum will move up.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 11:18 - ID#24135)
Hip Hip Hurray ..
for Prometheus, RJ, and Brother Oris.
.. Down with The Pyrites Pimpell-Nell..
and needless attacks on others.

.. and I notice your silence oh
cage Rattler.
RJ - Good call on platinum as I said
before .. didnt buy more .. in fact
I lightened up.. But now I have much
more time to get out with grace as I
continue to feel short term jumpiness...
I just dont think June will be

(Wed May 13 1998 11:18 - ID#254269)
@ A.Goose; French Nuclear Testing. you are correct. The French did explode some
nukes at an atoll in the South Pacific ( near Tahiti ) . I think it was about four ( maybe five ) years ago or so. Australia and New Zealand went to the World Court to try to get it stopped. To try and put it in perspective as to why the Aussies and New Zealanders got so upset about it; it would probably be equivalent to Canada ( or some other "friendly" country ) "testing" a nuke in the Pacific between Hawaii and Seattle ( or testing one in the Gulf of Mexico ) . The arrogance that the French exhibited was incredible and the fact that the US did not speak out about it effectively was also incredible.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:19 - ID#20135)
Donald, I think you nailed a major change...
The FED refrains from intervening in the market again today. I feel fairly certain that the FED has not acted in this manner in the last 4 maybe five years, maybe longer. They have been adding money ( liquidity ) to the market almost every second, third or fourth day for as long as I can remember ( and almost NEVER drained ) . They were flooding the WORLD with USdollars. NOw, the usdollar is coming home ( forget the pr stories ) and the FED is drainging and/or standing aside.

This may be the MOST positive indicator for gold.


Wednesday May 13, 10:55 am Eastern Time

Mexico's peso skids at open on Asia speculation

MEXICO CITY, May 13 ( Reuters ) - Mexican peso contracts slid on Wednesday in early trade on foreign demand for dollars, dealers said.

``The peso is weakening because of the continuing demand for dollars. People are nervous the Asia situation could again hit other emerging markets,'' one dealer

(Wed May 13 1998 11:22 - ID#31868)
6Pak - re:corporate mergers, ah yeah, I would call a meeting of
the foxes to look into the deaths in the chicken coop. Ah yeah...

(Wed May 13 1998 11:23 - ID#335190)
Feel Good @ All is well (Canadian Central Bank, is on guard for thee)
May 13, 1998

Economy to roll on, central bank says

OTTAWA ( CP )  Canadians can expect healthy annual economic growth of 3.5 per cent until the middle of 1999, the Bank of Canada said today.

In its latest report on monetary policy, the central bank said the economy now is in a position to cash in on solid fundamentals like low inflation and a balanced budget.

In addition, international conditions, despite turmoil in Asia, are generally favorable for steady growth in the Canadian economy, the bank added. Asia, plus lower commodity prices, can be expected to hurt Canada's exports in coming months.

But low levels of medium- and long-term interest rates will continue fuel another year of solid growth, the bank added.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:23 - ID#287129)
RJ (..... PL + PA .....)
RJ, can you be more specific as to why you believe that platinum will rise substantially by June?

Also, while someone expressed the opinion that discussion platinum does not belong in a gold forum, I beg to disagree...because I am interested in discussion of ALL the precious metals. Furthermore, platinum is NOW being used for official U.S. coins: Platinum Eagles.


(Wed May 13 1998 11:23 - ID#20135)

Date: Wed May 13 1998 11:18

Thanks for clarifying the French testing. Was it above ground???

Clinton reads the polls and reacts against those he thinks he can boss around. The fix is in once again. The French should have been stopped and I don't think the USG even gave them a second glance.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:26 - ID#20135)
Date: Wed May 13 1998 11:09


chas you asked me about something a day or two ago. I noted it down and then proceeded to lose it... If you still want something of me I am afraid you will need to remind me, after all I am A.Goose.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:31 - ID#31868)
A'las A. Goose, the sad truth is the French are white, the people in India are not.
The test was underwater I believe in the SP. In addition the French are in a position to hurt the USA far more than India in world politics and especially in Europe. Or at least that was the case at the time of the explosions.

Yes, the world, she is a changin. And due to lack of leadership and strength, the mantle of super power for the USA is being challenged virtually everywhere on the globe, politically, financially, socially and right out in the open for all the world to see.

The bankers and politicians have made a grave error thinking they can control the world with worthless paper.

Blood is thicker by far than ink

(Wed May 13 1998 11:31 - ID#335190)
Tolerant1 @ 11:22
Tolerant: You got that right ! Sad, eh!
Take Care.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:31 - ID#269409)
@ RJ...what price to sell?
RJ, At what point would you recommend taking profits on the Plat? Did your earlier Palladium hedge post, referencing "June" mean that you believe Russian shipments will begin then, Palladium will dive, but Platinum will remain strong? Would not Platinum also fall when the shipments begin for real?

(Wed May 13 1998 11:35 - ID#22956)
I like it, YES. But why for these NY dewds gotta sell it back down? Was it short covering? I am confused by spot price at Barts site.

I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that spike, Yes indeedy. Let us have some follow through during this next month..... ( before PLN8 option expiry ) ......... ;- )

My 'nipple-deep' platinum calls ( leveraged BIG TIME ) may pay off for me after all.......tick-tock, tick-tock.....the plat-rat ran up the clock......the clock struck......... ( hmmmmm ) enjoy this meteoric rise.....uh huh.


now wasn't that rather subdued coming from a doooood like EB ( ? )

and who is this Golden Prophet dooooood whining cause he MISSED the move in Platinum.........don't you read GP or is the gold-head stuck in the gold-sand ( ? ) ........too bad......uh huh. Pack your stuff.....or pay attention.... ( DUH )

as I wrote this Plat spot started it's rise again ( is it new buying? ) .....I LIKE IT! ( smiles )

(Wed May 13 1998 11:37 - ID#269409)
@ Eldorado
Your 11:17 is incorrect El. The buy / sell spread on American Eagles is between $6.00 and $7.00 where I buy them, ( V.J. VOllmer ) . Where you get the idea that it's $50.0, I don't know. Ask RJ...he'll tell you that anyone charging a spread like $50.0that is a shyster. If you buy in any quantity, the insured shipping becomes a small percentage of the cost. About $.50c to .75c per coin when you purchase 40 or more at once

Now it's true the premiums rise when everyone is chasing the coins. That's why buying at the bottom can be doubly lucrative.... yesterday was a "Golden" is a "Silver lined" one.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:37 - ID#317193)
Very nice people, very nice.


(Wed May 13 1998 11:40 - ID#342315)
A.Goose re lost note
No sweat, it was how to contact F. Veneroso. Do you have an email or website? Thanx ,Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 11:44 - ID#254269)
French test was underwater. It was very heavily covered by the Aussie and
New Zealand press ( obviously ) and received coverage here in the US when the tests were undertaken but, as I recall, there was very little pre-test complaint by the US government. About the only retaliation that Australia could muster was a ban on import of French wines and refusing to unload and service French shipping and aircraft etc. Remember it was the French government who blew up the Greenpeace boat "Rainbow Warrior" in Auckland ( New Zealand ) Harbor. If that had happened in Boston, there would have been all sorts of hell to pay.
Most Americans ( bless their hearts ) are somewhat ignorant of news from other parts of the world.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:45 - ID#22956)
RJ oh RJ!!!! what to do next?????? PRAY TELL(!)
c'mon youse guys.......he has stated plat will rise and trade from 460 to 600 as it did in late 80's. He has also statd that NOONE can predict the rise and fall of these commodities.....NOONE. With great accuracy anyway. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. TAKE YOUR OWN RISKS. The price will continue to rise until the roooooskies deliver..... ( or until Brother ORIS starts selling his great hoard of Tony Packos Pickles and blondies... ) . When the rooooooskies start the shipments then be ready for some correction. YES. Oh hell, just get ready for some correction AT ALL TIMES. This is why I trade commods, for it is quicker to sell out of your position than it is to sell coins to someone else......... ( this is what I think ) .

Now, Blast AWAY oh great LGBster......for I know you must have a response....uh huh. put on kevlar


(Wed May 13 1998 11:46 - ID#254269)
@ Tolerant 1. I think you are "right on" with your sad truth (11.31). French are white,
Indians are not. etc.

(Wed May 13 1998 11:46 - ID#222231)
We all fervently believe in gold as true money ( save a few ) . Normally gold would have reacted much differently than it has to now but for an effort by the powers that be to fulfill an agenda to profit from the price of gold being depressed. We have to ask ourselves WHY? WHO? What are thier true motives? The final results.


1 ) In order for fiat money to suceed, the perception of gold as money has to be crushed, trampled and unconditionally defeated by whatever means neccessary, once and for all.

a ) The price of gold had to be controlled and manipulated for the above to come to fruition.
b ) A plan to corner the market in gold had to be formulated.
c ) This plan had to a co-ordinated effort by and between the strongest and largest CBs and largest and strongest mining companies by the use of hedging and dirivitives programs.




1 ) To eventually OWN and CONTROL the majority of world reserves of gold. To cause despair, loss and defeat of all who have faith or belief in gold as money. By causing such losses over a long time span that those of little or great consequence would throw in the towel and cry uncle. ( THEY DO HAVE THE MEANS AND RESOURCES TOWARDS THIS END. )

a ) Accumulate and eventually hold majority of gold at low prices:
1 ) By forcing the depression of prices by huge selling programs that cause great pain, losses and grief for anyone who dares go long.
2 ) By eventually gaining access and control of major future production through forward selling.


1 ) Once the majority of gold is in thier hands, fiat money can be manipulated anyway they desire. Gold evaluation can be manipulated to cover fiat money expansion and dilution by the powers that be.


1 ) The powers that be will then have total, complete control over the world. A few will hold the majority captive to thier desires and the NWO will be a Fait accompli.

2 ) Accumualation of physical gold that can be squirreled away without hardship is a must if we are to survive. Equities in gold mining shares will be useless because they will be owned and controlled BY THE POWERS THAT BE. Any short term speculations should be avoided at all costs, for we shall all surely lose in the long run.

3 ) If anyone does not believe there is a conspiracy happening under our very noses, look over your posts and think hard and long at what has been going on in the PM markets for the past eighteen years. Poorboys is not far off when he basically says, "Goldbugs will be applying to the Salvation Army for relief." ( SAVE THOSE THAT ACCUMULATE AND HOLD WHATEVER THEY CAN AFFORD WITHOUT CAUSING UNDUE HARDSHIP ) .IMHO.


P.S. All of the above may just be hogwash and PMs are indicating a deflation of enormous proportions. ( A POSSIBILITY, BUT IN MHO, NOT. )





(Wed May 13 1998 11:49 - ID#22956)
meanwhile....back at the ranch....
the ALMIGHTY US$ is taking the piss out of ALL currencies right doesn't look worthless today.........uh uh. buy the correction ( mark,swiss, ) ...enisdead

(Wed May 13 1998 11:54 - ID#20135)
Date: Wed May 13 1998 11:31

Thanks. Sad but probagbly true. It bothers me greatly we I tend to side with anyone against the views of the U.S.president ( but he is scum what can I do ) .

There is a bad odor in the air. The USG is rotting from within and it feels like there is no substance or strength behind the USG facade. As a goldbug, folks should discount my "feelings" on this matter, but IT IS DIFFERENT THIS TIME. Look at the USG actions and the results from those actions. THE USG is a ghost of its former self and the other players in the world are making plans and arrangements for doing business without the USdollar.

The usdollar is undergoing its FINAL UPWARD DRIVE, it is being setup. Once it starts down, it will never recover. It has no fundamental foundations ( to much debt, no hard assets, ... ) .

We probably should start watching the cross-currency exchange rates as another indicator.


(Wed May 13 1998 11:56 - ID#269409)
@ EB
Now why would I blast away at you EB olator? Your advice in both posts is good advice.....I'm just tryin to feel out RJ for whether he believes Platinum is a long term hodl after Russkie shipments begin, yes?

(Wed May 13 1998 11:57 - ID#413109)
SSC Watchers!!
Many have been talking about a silver investment via SSC ( Sunshine )
well it's a buy here folks. Today may be the turn or very soon, as
this type of volume smacks of something happening, and usually at
these long terms levels it means heavy buying.

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 11:59 - ID#212323)
Tolerant1 --the best evidence that the world is changing is...
your post at 10:52. The fact that *you* would make a long post ( a rarity indeed ) is clear evidence that things are afoot. ( The content of your post was par excellence, of course ) .

Thanks for the newsflash from Cuervo Central.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:00 - ID#269409)
@ Pete
However, just for the record, there are voices here who dissent with the "Gold is the only true money" message. Whatever society agrees is true money ( which currently is the almighty U.S. dollar ) BECOMES real money whether metal adherents feel comfy about it or not.

The dollar, and yes, even it's rapid growth, has been the engine that has allowed human endeavor and creativity to lift the current society here to rather lofty economic heights indeed, by ANY historical measure. A society ruled by hard money advocates would have left us mired in poverty and backwardation for eons. ( Where's my abbucus at? )

(Wed May 13 1998 12:01 - ID#20135)
Date: Wed May 13 1998 11:40
chas ( A.Goose re lost note ) ID#342315:
No sweat, it was how to contact F. Veneroso. Do you have an email or website? Thanx ,Charlie


Frank Veneroso
Veneroso Associates
100 Park Avenue
Suite 2150
New York, New York 10017

212 949 7389

(Wed May 13 1998 12:01 - ID#194311)
Interest free Islamic banking....dawn of the new dinar-era?
To me this sounds more "christian" than American banking.....?

Singapore to host Islamic banking talks with eye on massive fund pool
SINGAPORE, May 13 ( AFP ) - Singapore is to host talks on Islamic
banking and finance as part of plans to tap a growing pool of
Islamic funds of up to 90 billion US dollars worldwide, officials
said Wednesday.
The inaugural Asia Islamic Banking and Finance Conference in
August could lead to elements of Islamic banking and finance being
incorporated into the Singapore banking system to tap the growing
pool of Islamic funds, they said.
The two-day conference would draw academics and key Islamic
banking practitioners from Asia, the Middle East, United States and
Officials from conference organisers Mendaki Holdings, the
economic arm of Singapore Moslem charity organisation Yayasan
Mendaki, said over 130 banks and other financial institutions
worldwide were practising the principles of Islamic banking and
These institutions now manage up to 90 billion dollars, growing
at an annual rate of nearly 15 percent. Most of the money is managed
out of London and Bahrain.
"If possible, we hope to eventually -- after necessary follow-up
from the conference -- channel part of these funds through
Singapore," said Mustaza Kassim, chairman of a panel organising the
He said China and South Korea, for instance, were already
tapping the funds available mainly from the Middle East in the
petroleum business.
Mustaza, who is also the Singapore-based regional representative
for Saudi Arabia's National Commercial Bank, said Islamic funds
could be tapped for project financing, trade financing and a variety
of fund management activities in Asia.
The essential feature of Islamic banking is that it is
interest-free. Islam prohibits Moslems from taking or giving
interest or "riba" regardless of the purpose for which loans are
made and regardless of the rates at which interest is charged. Banks
rely instead on a form of profit-sharing.
The Singapore conference would examine how policies and Islamic
principles shape the direction of Islamic banking, including key
central bank policies.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:03 - ID#210235)
@Reality check
Asia sees current crisis as their Great Depression.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:04 - ID#269409)
@ Yet another Mine closes due to low Gold price
Wednesday May 13, 8:03 am Eastern Time

Company Press Release

Coeur D'Alene Mines Reports First Quarter Results and Writedown of El Bronce

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --May 13, 1998--Coeur d'Alene Mines Corporation ( NYSE:CDE - news )
today reported a first quarter 1998 net loss of $58.0 million, due primarily to a $54.5 million non-recurring charge related to
its investment in its El Bronce property in Chile, including $8.3 million estimated to be the costs of remediation, reclamation
and closure. This compares to a net loss of $1.7 million, during the same period a year ago. After quarterly dividends to
preferred shareholders, the loss attributable to common shareholders in 1998's first quarter amounted to $60.6 million, or
$2.77 per share, compared to a loss of $4.4 million, or $.20 per share, during the first quarter of 1997.

Silver prices were $1.23 per ounce higher than in the previous year's first three months, averaging $6.25 during this year's
period compared to $5.02 in the prior year's period. Average gold prices during the quarter were approximately $57 per
ounce lower than in the previous year's period, averaging $294.18 during the first quarter of 1998 compared to $351.17
during last year's comparable period.

For the first three months of this year, Coeur realized increased production from its Rochester and Yilgarn Star mines
compared to the same period last year. Gold production in the first quarter of 1998 increased 7 percent, to 64,423 ounces,
from 59,963 ounces produced in the same period in 1997. Quarterly silver production remained relatively constant, with
2,557,908 ounces of production this year compared to 2,542,273 ounces in the previous year's first quarter.

After additional studies were completed in April 1998, the Company decided to suspend operations at its El Bronce mine in
Chile. With gold prices remaining at low levels and exploratory efforts proving unsatisfactory, the Company concluded that it
would be more prudent to cease investing its capital in that operation and employ that capital in more promising projects.
Accordingly, the Company is proceeding to cease operations at the El Bronce mine and has written down its investment in the
mine by taking a charge in the first quarter of 1998 of approximately $54.5 million. Due to the underperformance and
planned closure of the El Bronce mine, the Company expects that its gold production for the remainder of 1998 will be
approximately 35,000 gold ounces less than originally anticipated in the Company's 1998 budget.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:06 - ID#413109)
6 Pak, please contact re visit!

(Wed May 13 1998 12:11 - ID#22956)
yes.... ( go plat ) And perhaps you can answer my perplexitious ( new word ) question as to how you sell the coins back to the dealer or whoever you bought them from. And do they always buy them back...even though the price is significantly higher than before. Will there ( more or less ) always be a buyer.... ( at fair market price ) ?? Say the price gets to 600/oz....does it get more difficult to find someone willing to purchase? I don't know the answers to these here me stoooopid.....or pull the cloud from my horizon. TIA enjoy a day off in rare partial cloudy course is too wet.....the yard is too wet to work ( wink ) .......these ( US ) markets will close soon.......oh dear...what to do......a movie looks good.


(Wed May 13 1998 12:12 - ID#254269)
" the world, she is a' changing". toleant one, old boy, I was thinking about that
last night and your posts this morning have reinforced that thought.
Specifically, there is turmoil ( maybe that is too strong a word; maybe serious change is a more appropriate term ) in two of the most populous countries in the world; Consider;
1. India ( population 600 million ) , sets off 5 nukes in two days.
2. Indonesia ( population 175 million ) , major economic and political
3. China and Pakistan, ( combined populations over 1 billion ) , are very close geographically to 1 & 2, and VERY concerned about outcomes. These four countries have almost HALF of the world population.
The outcomes of these events will be of MONSTROUS Proportions.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:15 - ID#194311)
Avalon...India is much bigger
Noone realises India is 900 million people....talking of potential markets and they appreciate gold honesty.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:18 - ID#288295)
US initiates trades sanctions on India

hmmmmmmmm...weren't trade restrictions a trip wire for the crash of '29?

(Wed May 13 1998 12:18 - ID#269409)
@ EB...RJ
Yes, the reputable dealers will virtually always buy back bullion coins at the current price, which they of course may set. If the price and the premiums are rising very rapidly, then the buy/sell spread can indeed grow...but they'll still buy back the coins.

Vollmer will quote buy/sell at any time....only problem is that delivery can take awhile...sometimes 3 or 4 weeks or even more, but that can happen with Blanchard and other such companies also. I'm sure firms like RJ's Monex operate much the same way in physical coins...RJ? Can you elaborate on the normal buy/sell equation on Pt. Eagles? Since it's a question posed, no one can accuse you of business solicitation, yes?

Besides, if you can beat Vollmer I may switch loyalties!

(Wed May 13 1998 12:18 - ID#238422)
John Disney and RJ\Statement from the Kremlin
Upon further investigation, we deny that any
Russian platinum shipments took place in the
last few days. Whatever Oris thinks, we did not
deliver yet. Brother Oris is obligated to stop
drinking and talking after drinking...
Brothers, I deny my earlier statement that
PL shipments from Russia started. I had too
much vodka and when I finally waked up, my brain
was in jeopardy. Sorry...I'm drinking only skim
milk now - hey, Mozel, I'm a milk drinker!

Go platinum. Long live my brothers JD and RJ!

(Wed May 13 1998 12:19 - ID#238422)
Thank you, my brother Prometheus.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:20 - ID#262242)
Hello Reify

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 12:21 - ID#24135)
Just read this ..
.. and I wont say where ..
" The dollar, and yes, even it's rapid growth, has been
the engine that has allowed human endeavor and
creativity to lift the current society here to rather
lofty economic heights indeed, by ANY historical
measure. A society ruled by hard money advocates
would have left us mired in poverty and
backwardation for eons. ( Where's my abbucus at? ) "

1. Does Everybody agree with this baloney?
2. Does Anyboby know what an "abbucus" is ?
3. Or where it's AT !!!

Whew .. there goes the neighborhood..

(Wed May 13 1998 12:21 - ID#20135)
I worked this up quickly when I saw kitco had silver down some "massive" amount...
Silver brief history 5 13 98
but I guess it was just another kitco glitch. Well, hope this helps with a short term perspective.


silver warehouse stocks:

0 48,878 37,648,995
-1,014 -48,878 51,416,911
-1,014 0 89,065,906

silver warehouse stocks:

0 0 37,600,117
-18,826 0 51,466,803
-18,826 0 89,066,920

silver warehouse stocks:

-10,026 5,210 37,600,117
0 -5,210 51,485,629
-10,026 0 89,085,746

silver warehouse stocks:

-174,599 15,869 37,604,933
0 -15,869 51,490,839
-174,599 0 89,095,772

silver warehouse stocks:

0 77,733 37,763,663
-598,611 -77,733 51,506,708
-598,611 0 89,270,371

silver warehouse stocks:

0 0 37,685,930
293,952 288,672 52,183,052
293,952 -288,672 89,868,982

silver warehouse stocks:

0 576,064 37,685,930
442,282 -576,064 52,471,724
442,282 0 90,157,654

got to run. bbml

(Wed May 13 1998 12:21 - ID#31868)
Forgot to ask who the mutual friend is?


(Wed May 13 1998 12:23 - ID#238422)
Brother Tom, it'a always good to hear from you,
particularly now, when you got some medicine for
me. According to the Russian tradition, what you
offer me at this difficult moment is more than
just help, you offer me my survival. Please feel
free to ship me this medicine COD or any other
way. The friend in need is a friend indeed...

(Wed May 13 1998 12:23 - ID#269409)
@ Tyoung
Tom you rafish rogue. How can you give a "NAB" to the Gold market today? It's gotta be the most boringly predictable world market you could find today, bar none! ( Have pork bellies been stable lately? )

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 12:24 - ID#212323)
Mozel --Regarding natural selection and gold
I doubt that you saw my post yesterday afternoon wherein I mentioned gold attaining its status as King of the Money through natural selection, and I expressed my dismay at man's arrogant efforts to fight nature.

I'm glad to have read your posts earlier today ( or last night? ) to see this same topic expanded a bit with additional thoughts. I enjoyed your analogy with the Mississippi ( Missouri ( ? ) ) River. I also share that view.

The vital element necessary is patience and intellegent application of leverage. Missing that, a person requires a knack for recognizing the precise moment when the equilibrium has been brought so out-of-balance that collapse is imminent. Because I lack that keen sense for timing the markets I find myself playing the part of the patient man. It isn't possible to be ready too early, because by definition it isn't possible to be ready after-the-fact. People preparing for the demise of the greenback by converting their savings to gold is exactly the leverage I refer to. Got gold?

(Wed May 13 1998 12:24 - ID#262242)

(Wed May 13 1998 12:24 - ID#31868)
SilverBaron - the spin team is at work again and they are well oiled by BS, in
that what I mean is that the tests by India bring about mandatory sanctions by law. The Coward Erect has nothing to do with it, nothing at all.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:24 - ID#269409)
@ JD
I had a bet with someone as to how long you would take. I just won..thanks!

(Wed May 13 1998 12:25 - ID#238422)
Golden prophet
You are not my brother. Get lost or shut up, it's up to you.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:26 - ID#342315)
A.Goose re FV
The number for Frank has been changed to 603 430 8482. Will let you know when I get him, thanx again

(Wed May 13 1998 12:27 - ID#270247)
Your view on the American military situation reminds me of my Roman History. Rome, who had the best military in the world, was stretched too thin over time as it kept trying to take over more and more territory, or deal with more and more internal problems. The men in the ranks were always suffering from morale problems because of the actions of their leaders like Nero, Tiberius, ect. As time passed the greatest military in the world became overwhelmed simply because of its own internal problems and lack of being able to react to any situations. The empire fell apart, the borders were reduced, Rome was sacked over and over until only South Central Europe was under its control.

America seems to be putting itself in exactly the same kimd of situation. Bosnia, Iraq, Korea, and many points in between. Our military is spread too thin. Our leaders on nearly every level are becoming more corrupt or lack any kind of initiative or thought in their ideas. The rest of the world is certainly getting fed up with America trying to pull all the strings. As more and more unrest erupts America will be less able to do anything about it. Add this unrest outside the country to economic and social problems inside and who knows what could happen.

Of course the only finacial protection from any true crisis is gold which is why I'm starting to stock up now while it is fairly inexpensive. However, I don't expect it to really shoot up in value until the crisis is well under way. Only then will people wake up and begin to figure out what is happening. Some sooner than others. In the meantime I'm buying gold while Clinton plays his saxophone and the rest of the world is going up in flames.

I know many people say comparing Rome to America is like comparing Apples and Oranges. But I think there are too many similarities between the two. After all those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. All this of course is IMHO.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 12:28 - ID#24135)
Vivas all round
Brother Oris
I knew you were going to get in trouble
with the Kremlin sooner or later..
and my brother .. I agree that palladium's
days are numbered .. but I also think it will
surpass platinum in the short term.
I also think June will be a testing and
unpleasant month for many of us - even the
platinum guys.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:35 - ID#252127)

and send the IMF in to rape their industry. And so was the case at the end of the 20th century.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:36 - ID#287129)
LGB (@ EB...RJ)
A friend of mine bought some platinum Eagles from Monex, and said that he received them in three days. I was impressed. He was already a customer of Monex, and funds were apparently already in an account he had at Monex, so perhaps that made a difference in the speed of receipt. I don't know what their normal turnaround time is when you have to send in funds first; but three days after having possession of funds is what I would consider to be very prompt.

Also, I would still like an explanation as to why there is a belief that platinum will rise in June.


(Wed May 13 1998 12:37 - ID#22956)
I mean HOW do you sell the coins back? Do you call the dealer and simply say, "I have some Plat Eagles and I want to sell them back to you at spot NOW". And does the dealer lock it in and wait until you send him the coins? How does the sequence work is my question. I have been confused regarding this for a long time.

Brother Oris....have a'll feel fine.



John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 12:37 - ID#24135)
little Gritty BUM
at least thats what you SAY..
.. go away .. lets not have any
and did you find where your
ABBUCUS was AT ???
I was concerned .. not about your
abacus ..but about your English.
Puleeze .. tell us more and MORE

Gusto Oro
(Wed May 13 1998 12:38 - ID#377235)
LGB 12:23
I checked the barn yonder and the pork bellies were still in the stable. --AG

(Wed May 13 1998 12:38 - ID#31868)
Ahhhh,a good time will be had by all I am sure. Gulp to ya...Namaste'

(Wed May 13 1998 12:41 - ID#22956)
your question deserves an answer and my only answer is the age old one.


now, how does your buddy sell the coins back to Monex? watch and learn


(Wed May 13 1998 12:43 - ID#289357)
law, shmaw......the net effect is the same - reduction in trade with India. I predict ( I rarely do this ) that Pakistan will start testing within a month, and then we will isolate yet another country as a trading partner, and that one is Islamic. Think of the possible outcomes of alienating ( further ) the Islamic world, who aren't in love with us now anyway. Dominos, dominos.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:45 - ID#254269)
Maybe US Dollar isn't so hard; Maybe , other currencies are softer in

(Wed May 13 1998 12:46 - ID#286230)
Royal Oak Starts Kemess today
Wednesday, May 13, 1998

Royal Oak rolls out Kemess

Struggling miner on 'financial tightrope' with $470-million project

Vancouver Bureau The Financial Post
Cash-strapped Royal Oak Mines Inc. officially begins
production today at its $470-million Kemess gold-copper mine
without an agreement with U.S. bondholders that is crucial to
its survival.
Built with a $166-million aid package from the British
Columbia government, Kemess is seen as the last chance for
the Kirkland, Wash.-based company that has been hurt by
low gold prices and a series of cost overruns.
Royal Oak is still locked in critical negotiations with U.S.
bondholders, whose approval is needed before it can draw
down a US$120-million debt financing arranged with Trilon
Financial Corp. of Toronto.
The company desperately needs the Trilon financing to
reduce its debts, including US$44 million owed to debenture
holders in the U.S.
Royal Oak spokesman Nick Volk declined yesterday to say
how soon talks with the U.S. bondholders will be concluded.
"Negotiations are moving along in a very positive manner,''
he said. "But I really can't comment on a specific time.''
The company must also convince skeptical investors the Kemess open-pit mine can transform
a notoriously high-cost gold producer into a consistent profit maker.
The new mine is expected to produce 163,000 ounces of gold and 41 million pounds of
copper this year. Assuming copper trades at US80 a pound on the London Metal Exchange,
Royal Oak has said cash costs of producing gold will be US$128 an ounce.
"This is a company that is still walking on a financial tightrope,'' said Michael Jalonen, gold
analyst at Midland Walwyn Capital Inc. in Toronto.
Yesterday, Royal Oak reported a profit of $2.3 million ( 2 a share ) for the first quarter,
compared with a loss of $8.1 million ( 6 ) in the same period last year.
The company also said its liabilities include $95.6 million in accounts payable and accrued
Of that amount, up to 90% is owed to contractors hired to build the Kemess mine, which will
employ 500 workers.
Assuming Royal Oak can close the Trilon deal, Jalonen believes it will be left with working
capital of less than $20 million once all the bills are paid. "That's still enough money to keep
going,'' he said.
The company said it was able to report a profit after realizing an average of US$345 for each
of the 45,557 ounces of gold it produced from mines in Timmins, Ont., and Yellowknife during
the first three months of 1998.
Given that gold averaged US$294 an ounce in the quarter, analysts were astonished Royal
Oak could get such a high price for its production.
The company has said hedging contracts that enabled it to obtain premium prices for its
output expired last year.
Volk said the company was able to obtain a premium for its first-quarter production by
recognizing deferred revenue on gold hedging contracts that had been accrued as liabilities
over the past two years.
Royal Oak's average first-quarter production costs fell 16% from year-ago levels to US$280
an ounce.
However, because of recent mine closures in Newfoundland and the Northwest Territories,
revenue fell to $22.4 million in the quarter from $48 million a year ago.
Yesterday, Royal Oak shares ( RYO/TSE ) rose 6 to $1.58.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:46 - ID#31868)
The Rise and Fall of Rome eh, it is an excellent parallel. However, there are two main differences. One is the speed at which the people can make their thoughts known. The second is that while our military has been weakened substantially it is vastly superior to others.

This is where leadership comes into play and this is the focal point of our demise if such is in the cards. The Coward Erect is an intellectual fool and a liar, in addition, in my opinion he is a traitor. He stood bold faced and lied to the American people saying that there were no missiles pointed at the United States knowing full well his direct actions have put the Chinese in exactly that position.

The rot in the District of Columbia has come home to roost and America will suffer for it. I do not think America will crumble thoughthere are 10s of millions who will make their thoughts known and their actions will be swift, harsh and unforgiving when the truth be known.

Gulp to ya


(Wed May 13 1998 12:46 - ID#335190)
Reify @ 12:06
Reify: Thank you very much for the interest to communicate via e-mail. I avoided your first request to contact via e-mail. You have again requested contact, I appreciate your interest, and find your interest rewarding.

I have a policy of not doing the e-mail thing, right or wrong, I do not know if it is best. I have much on my plate, and find Kitco of considerable interest, and at times, Kitco takes time I should be spending at other engagements/chores, as a result, I get myself into tight time frames. E-mail will possibly add to the pressure of time.

Again, Thank you very much, and I am sorry for being against the e-mail thing. This is not intended to reflect on any position/issue you have taken, not at all.
Take Care.

(Wed May 13 1998 12:50 - ID#31868)
SilverBaron - law, shmaw!!!
First off you are absolutely correct. Second, I have not heard that expression in a while. Third, I just did not want the Coward Erect to take credit for something he has zero control and or responsibility for.

Gulp to ya, law, shmaw, hee, hee....

(Wed May 13 1998 12:55 - ID#269409)
@ EB... yes and yes
Yes EB, at both the buy and sell points, I ask for a quote. If I decide to buy or sell at that quote, the dealer locks in the transaction and gives me a confirmation number for the quoted price. Most dealers, Vollmer included, require that if you're doing a "buy", the money get's in the mail by the following business day of the phone confirmation.

The same holds true for a "sell", the coins should be shipped by the following day. ( insured of course! )

(Wed May 13 1998 12:56 - ID#222231)
LGB, you'll notice, I said save a few. The use of paper money is a neccessary concept in this modern world. I will agree with you on this fact even as much as it pains me. I don't know if you read my post to mozel some time ago about using physical hard money as a medium of exchange as totally impractical, yes. It's when this paper money or medium of exchange is abused by governments, either by debasement of creation of inflation or deflation that the problem arises. The US$ is accepted now and maybe for a period of one year, ten years or 100 years from now. Without PMs to control the actions of the money changers and politicians, the US$ too shall pass.

An asset such as PMs is neccessary to govern or throttle down this debasement. PMs have been accepted by most throughout the world as a store of value from time immemorial whereas the history of paper currencies that were diluted by lack of PM backing have failed consistently since time immemoriable. Need I say more!

(Wed May 13 1998 12:58 - ID#28594)
Kumtor Gold. Ever heard of it?
Bulletin UE 05-1995
Organisations et confrences internationales ( 10/14 )
Projet d'amlioration du rseau de transmission
1.4.25. La Banque approuve un prt de 28,6 millions d'cus en faveur du holding d'lectricit d'Etat de la rpublique du Kirghistan, une entreprise constitue en socit dans cette rpublique. Ce prt permettra le dveloppement conomique du projet Kumtor Gold pour le secteur priv et l'amlioration du rseau de transmission de l'lectricit dans la rgion Issyk Kul de la rpublique du Kirghistan tout en favorisant la commercialisation de l'emprunteur. La Banque joue galement un rle majeur pour mobiliser le financement  des conditions librales pour d'autres amliorations du rseau de l'emprunteur.

Project of improvement of the network of transmission
1.4.25. The Bank approves a loan of 28,6 million ecus in favour of
the holding of electricity of State of the republic of Kirghistan, a company made up in company in this republic. This loan will allow the economic development of the project Kumtor Gold for the private sector and the improvement of the network of transmission of electricity in the area Issyk Kul of the republic of Kirghistan while supporting the marketing of the borrower. The Bank also plays a major role to mobilize the financing under liberal conditions for other improvements of the network of the borrower.

Public Loan to allow PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT of Kumtor Gold...'sheltered'
behind 'power transmission' concerns ( and really ABOUT POWER TRANSMISSION
one suspects..of course this is quite common, nonetheless rather to
the point of our inquiry, yes? {:- )

There are a number of instances wherein the EU focuses with wondrous concentration on the noble metal: the retention of gold within the fortress; the acquisition of gold from LOME,; the refining of the ability to discover gold;

the special tax situation of gold ( about which more just a bit later--some very interesting clues regarding the war have surfaced! ) ....cutting and pasting all the bits and pieces today...

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 12:59 - ID#24135)
Er that's Gould not gold
A question to Canadians ..
In your judgement, what percentage of Canadians
would know who Glenn Gould was ?? Query is NOT about
gold but about GOULD ( which is close enough I think ) .

(Wed May 13 1998 13:01 - ID#342315)
tolerant1 re Bent Willie
I have to say that your opinion of clinton is a tad higher than mine- no disrespect, but I assume you're not putting the full load on him in your posts. Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 13:02 - ID#340459)
Indian /US tiff is well orchestrated drama, India after testing all they want to test will sign the
pact now, Israel has now strong military ties with India and through India, US is now re-assured of local Asian Defence opposition to China ( for balance of power ) . Pakistani Intelligence has been alerting USA from months about impending tests, USA knew about it and did nothing.

It is very unlikely that US intelligence was caught off guard as being surmised by the press, cmon.
Uncle Sam spies inside and outside it's territory.., All the time..

(Wed May 13 1998 13:04 - ID#31868)
chas - how's this...........................
Bill Clinton does not inhale, he sucks.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:06 - ID#286230)
About 90% know gold from Gould but few know very much about either or care.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:08 - ID#342315)
SDRer re 12:58
I have had a lot of suspicions about this, but could'nt tie them down. This is a great find. Please unload what you can. Thanx, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 13:09 - ID#342315)
tolerant re clinton
Most appropriate- I would say both ends

(Wed May 13 1998 13:09 - ID#289357)
J. Disney

I don't know Glenn Gould, but I DO know John Galt.

John Galt R US.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:10 - ID#31868)
or, it could be that certain intelligence powers that be in the USA let it occur so that China and the Oval Office axis would get the message that China ain't the only big kid on the block. Nah...

(Wed May 13 1998 13:12 - ID#28594)
Kiwi--BRABO! Great catch!
re: "To me this sounds more "christian" than American banking.....?"

It is troubling, disconcerting and important to recognize that the
"moral force" in this equation is counted for nought. Their position
is quite clear, "fractional reserve banking is 'evil'. One finds that
a difficult tenet with which to argue giving the mess we see about us!

(Wed May 13 1998 13:15 - ID#269409)
@ Pete...U.S. economy...good/bad
Re your 12:56. In my heart I agree with you Pete, but I'm trying to be a realist and look at the world as it is. I really abhore debt, both personally and with my Govt....and I know the U.S. is the world's biggest debtor.

We pay a pretty penny servicing the damn debt, and when the economy turns south it'll be a nasty thing..particularly since we are abandoning long tern financing of the debt ( at today's bargain levels ) in the somewhat naive belief that things is just going to gets better & better. ( Or I should phrase it...things are just going to improve for those too dense to understand grammatical satire.. )

Then we have totally bogus inflation umbers foisted on us by our economic this I agree with the "Bugs"...though this fact DO reflect poorly ( I mean DOES reflect poorly ) on Gold as an instrument of value preservation and enflation least for the past two decades.

I'm also concerned with M2 money supply being pumped up 10% per annum..with most of that money flowing to Equities. We do indeed have a bubble in the making, no question, that's why I'm "out" of the broad market.

However...all the above said...if we are to look at reality, it must also be acknowledged that;

* The U.S. is the strongest economy in the world
* The U.S. worker has the highest productivity worldwide
* The U.S. dollar is the strongest, most stable currency at present
* The U.S. unemployment rate is at a 28 year low
* The U.S. standard of living is among the highest in the world
* The U.S. corporate profit picture is in good health, overall
* Percent of population in poverty in U.S. is dropping even as minority incomes, and minority owned businesses are both growing rapidly
* The U.S. has the strongest, most innovative "High tech" sector of any economy.
* Personal incomes are rising across the board
* Inflation is "relatively" low.. ( though higher than reported no doubt )
* Interest rates remain low
* U.S. has one of the lowest tax burdens of any major economic entity ( though it's still way too high no doubt )

Summarizing the above, it's me belief that ECONOMICALLY, we are enjoying the finest time in U.S. history, if not world history. In areas that involve overall quality of life due to economic gains anyway. ( SOcietal breakdown might be a whole other issue eh? )

A lot of this astounding economic progress, has been due to FED policy of monetary expansion this past 2 decades, applied in the right as a realist, I feel a need to acknowledge this fact before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:16 - ID#270247)
I would have to agree with you. Yes people can speak there mind quicker and more freely now, but will they in time. The rot has definetly come to roost in DC. Both the White House and Capitol Hill.

But i beleive something must happen fairly soon. You have to cut out the cancer quickly in order to save the whole organism. If you don't get it in time, no matter how hard you try, you just can't stop it.

Americans have a notorius habit of waiting to take action until they are absolutly forced too. Look at WW2. If Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor it may have been several more months or years before we entered the war. In WW1 we the war in Europe had gone on for two or three years before America was involved.

Today, no one wants to rock the boat as long as their 401K's are making money and they are able to buy their SUV's and Beanie Babies. Our mass-information sources are becoming more and more corporate and government controled. ( All but one of Portland's top 15 radio stations are owned by only three compaines and we have only one major newspaper. )

Personally, I hope you are right and Americans will hang a copy of the Constitution, Declaration of Independance and Bill of Rights on thier walls and make our government once again responsible to those documents. That they will stand up and say "I'm mad as he** and I'm not going to take it anymore." I think they will, I just hope it happens before the cancer has taken over too much of the body.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:20 - ID#269409)
@ Allen
Where are you when I need you Allen? Talk "Akaido" ( sic? ) to me Allen. Talk to me man!

(Wed May 13 1998 13:22 - ID#375108)
GG: Glenn Gould & Go Gold
John Disney: Many Canadians know the late Glenn Gould, but as much for his idiosyncracies and hypochondria as for his musical genius. Sadly, Selby probably has it right...

(Wed May 13 1998 13:29 - ID#342315)
tolerant1 re your 13:10
I strongly think you've got a point

(Wed May 13 1998 13:29 - ID#410198)
When Lawyers start a web page for Y2K clients,"WE HAVE A PROBLEM HOUSTON"

(Wed May 13 1998 13:37 - ID#317193)
Just because gold is down at the present time does not make the market "as before". I believe we are going to look at this market in the second week of June. Could I be wrong-hell yes! The question is will I be wrong. Time will tell.

A raffish rogue? No. Maybe dumb but honestly dumb.

Spot $295 still not here yet. This morning just brushed it. Depending on the extent of the decline I may wait for $292. Downside risk on physical now is nil for me since I'm holding long term. With regard to stocks ( except the mutual fund ) I'll wait for spot $292-5. Dec. future contracts @$302.

Filled on SSC.


(Wed May 13 1998 13:37 - ID#286230)
Lord Alexander Galt
Galt was the author of a tax bill against Foreign including British goods in 1889 and beat up on the English Parliament who objected to being treated as a separate country --sort of an Iced Tea Party. Also Glenn Gould died in Orillia Ontario a hundred miles or so from the town of Galt named after the same Lord Alexander--right 6pak?

(Wed May 13 1998 13:37 - ID#342315)
A.Goose re FV
I got the email for will let you know the response. Thanx again, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 13:39 - ID#269409)
@ KJR...amen!
Though I blow the horn of patriotism in the economic arena, I must agree with you that politically, and culturally, we are slip sliding away from freedom.

The KLINTONS and their ilk, would love to turn us into a socilaist/fascist state where anyone who has a divergent or dissenting opinion is accused of "hate speech". Lest someone be "offended" of course, heaven forbid.

There are always plenty of "better than thou" folks around, who will be happy to "protect" the "lesser and "dumber" ( in their view ) folks around them, by squelching free speech and free discourse.

Even on a "contrarian" forum like this, one need not scroll too far back to find examples of those who are quick to make endless pointless personal attacks in the guise of protecting the "Widders and orpahns" from being "offended"...Apparently these poor "Widders & Orphans" are deemed way too stupid by their "superiors" to be capable of speaking for themselves. A sure sign of the arrogance of the Socilaistic, fascist mindset, that we see in our current White house administration, and among their many leftist, freedom hating cronies.

Oh yes, it's easy these days, to ignore any issues merits, and instead say we should all practice Orwellian "doublethink"....even if we must resort to simple persoanl attacks rather than attacking ideas. So that, of course, none of the "helpless" among us should ever be "Offended" by a dissenting view. Such voices should always be squelched? I think not.

Such self appointed speech Nazi's will not win in the end. The human spirit, truth, and the love of freedom will always crush the arrogant Fascist in the long run. As for me, I'll take your advice and keep that Bill of Rights, & Constitution handy. And those who try and squelch my right to speak my mind, will be crushed in the great maw of Freedom loving it has been written, so it will be done.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:40 - ID#227290)
Market Comments
To all:
We'll have to wait until the close to be sure, but it looks like a "key reversal" day in gold and silver.
Gold fell $2.80 this morning before rebounding and is now up $.30.
Silver fell $.14 and is now only down $.02.

Concerning key reversals, Ira Epstein likes to say: "Coming on the middle day of the week in the middle week of the month gives it an added impetus."

Hope so. Stay tuned. Things may just turn out all right in the end after all.

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 13:40 - ID#194311)
Balance of power...but who has the gold?
Populations 1996

China 1210.0
India 952.1
US 266.5
Indonesia 206.6
Brazil 162.6
Russia 148.2
Pakistan 129.3
Japan 125.5
Nigeria 103.9

(Wed May 13 1998 13:41 - ID#36156)
John Disney - Glenn Gould
The National Library of Canada has a comprehensive history on this late classical musician.

[excerpt from this page]:


From the late 1950s until his death, Glenn Gould was the most prominent Canadian classical musician in Canada. A celebrity in his own country before he was 20, Gould rapidly established an enviable reputation in the international musical community. When he died in 1982, shortly after his fiftieth birthday, tributes came not only from Canadians but from far beyond Canada's borders. More than a decade after his death, interest in Gould and his achievements is flourishing.

In 1983, the National Library of Canada acquired from the Glenn Gould Estate many of Gould's personal papers and possessions. Now part of the Manuscript Collection managed by the Library's Music Division, the Glenn Gould Papers are the largest and most important group of materials by and about Gould to be found anywhere. This virtual exhibition drawn from his archives honours and attempts to shed light on a man who is known worldwide and yet, in many ways, remains an enigma. The National Library of Canada is proud to make this valuable part of Canada's cultural heritage accessible to students, admirers and scholars through the world via the internet.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:43 - ID#269409)
@ Tyoung
I was jus funnin wid ya Tom! Short term it seems "ASB" to me..but who knows what'll happin when da EU boyz makes that there decision thing bout percentages, and amonuts ta hold & all. Where's my abbucus at? Of yeah..alomst forgot. we are in computin age's my "puter right here.

( Glad you filled SSC, I'll have to check my 1.00 order...I think we'll make a killing! )

(Wed May 13 1998 13:48 - ID#317193)
I did catch the humor. Of course I look for it more than others. Hope I'm wrong and gold goes to $350 from here.


(Wed May 13 1998 13:49 - ID#194311)
4-year Asia crisis .....where's the engine for growth gone?
World bank sees Asian crisis lasting up to four years
Followup-To: biz.clarinet.sample

SINGAPORE ( Reuters ) - Asia's tiger economies may take up to
four years to recover from the crisis that has battered them over
the last year, a World Bank official said Wednesday.
Jonathan Fiechter, director of special financial operations
at the Washington-based bank, said financial reform undertaken by
Thailand, South Korea and Indonesia were difficult to carry out
and the confidence of markets would take time to restore, he
``I think this will take two, three, four years to achieve,''
Fiechter told Reuters in an interview.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:51 - ID#238295)
Congrats to those who bulled platinum. Unfortunately for those of us who play strictly though mutuals, there are no funds that invest just in platinum mining companies to my knowledge. But the two PM funds I now have -- Gabelli Gold and Lexington Strategic Investments -- are holding up much better than most because of large investments in platinum miners. Stillwater is Gabelli Gold's single biggest holding. Lexington Strategic Investments -- by far the best performing gold fund in 1993 because of its focus on smaller SA plays -- has substantial positions in several SA platinum miners.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:54 - ID#342315)
Preacher re Ira Epstein
I've communicated with them a few times- they seem appropriate with facilities. Do you have experince with them? Thanx, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 13:55 - ID#286230)
Also Lord Galt was one of the Founding Fathers and one framers of the Constitution. Who would of guessed that Anne was so familiar with Canadian history and maybe even Canadian classical music.

(Wed May 13 1998 13:56 - ID#194311)
Munk on Europe gold holding.

TORONTO, May 12 ( Reuters ) - The establishment of a European
central bank will have a negligible impact on the future price
of gold, Barrick Gold Corp. Chairman Peter Munk said during a
spirited sermon to shareholders at the company's annual meeting
on Tuesday.
Munk spared neither fire nor brimstone in a thundering
denunciation of those who have argued the European Union's 11
member countries will be major sellers of gold when a European
central bank is created on January 1, 1999.
Gold analysts have said the European central bank's decision
to hold a certain portion of its reserves -- estimates range
from five to 30 percent -- in gold would be an important
benchmark for central banks outside and within the EU.
Central bank sales of gold were cited as the trigger for
gold bullion's dramatic fall from a 1997 high of $363 an ounce
to a low of $277.90 an ounce early this year.
Munk said the European central bank's decision, if and when
it was announced, would not change the fundamentals for gold

(Wed May 13 1998 13:57 - ID#269409)
@ Tyoung
You'll notice Bart has a sense of humor also re the Silver levels .50 or more below current... he keeps putting at the top of this page! ( We luv that adrenalin rush Bart! )

(Wed May 13 1998 13:59 - ID#286230)
Galt again
Peter Munks office is only 60 miles from the town of Galt.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:00 - ID#246224)
Your are now an Aikido master. It is attitude. Good dialogs today all around. Perfect. Better than boxing, which makes animals out of all.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:00 - ID#194311)
Boogie man for the software bullshishness.
California Assembly Rejects Bill to Shield Vendors From Y2k Liability

On April 21, a committee of the California Assembly rejected a bill aimed at limiting the liability of software vendors for
Year 2000 problems. AB 1710, introduced by Assemblyman Brooks Firestone, was to limit damage awards arising from
computer date failures if the computer vendor met certain guidelines, including giving notice to customers of any
anticipated failure and, for off-the-shelf software sold after 1997, offering a free repair of the date problem.

For vendors meeting the guidelines, the measure would have prevented punitive damages awards and would have limited
other damages to computer replacement costs and other losses dictated by contract law ( rather than, for instance, the more
liberal damages recoverable under claims of negligence or fraud ) . The measure was broadly supported by many in the
technology and insurance industries who fear costly litigation relating to the year 2000 bug. Supporters included the
Silicon Valley Software Industry Association, Intel Corporation, State Farm Insurance Companies, and the American
Electronics Association.

The bills supporters argued that it would prevent diversion of resources to litigation which should be spent instead on
tackling year 2000 problems. Supporters argued further that the year 2000 bug should not be a source of valid fraud or
negligence claims, as it was brought on by a "programming imperative" to speed processing and save computer memory
by limiting the number of digits used to represent the year.

Opponents argued that the bill would be a needless gift to negligent or fraudulent vendors of defective software, and that it
would remove the threat of lawsuits as a powerful incentive for such vendors to help their customers avert a potential

The opponents of AB 1710 prevailed and the bill did not make it out of committee.

Although many similar bills recently have come before state legislatures, AB 1710 was by many measures the broadest.
Most other bills, such as those introduced in states such as Hawaii, Washington, Illinois, and California, grant state
government or its departments full or partial immunity from potential lawsuits caused by year 2000 failures, but do not
aim to shield the software industry or other private entities from such liabilities.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:01 - ID#287312)
Turmoil in Asia boosts demand for U.S. stocks. One bubble ain't enough for these folks?

(Wed May 13 1998 14:02 - ID#39971)
JD---About 30%--Best guess.
This is a great site.

See ya in the wash.

PS:Leaky---you're getting a sense of humour!I like it.You need that

when your investment is getting HAMMERED into the ground,eh?: )

GOLD Forcast--AB---NC---Tick Tock........Clearer Still....Yawn.....

(Wed May 13 1998 14:02 - ID#246224)
"Yeild your members as instruments of righteousness in God's hands." Rom 8

(Wed May 13 1998 14:03 - ID#269409)
@ Allen
Thanks Allen, appreciate it...and here I was on the verge of blowing it. You showed up with impeccable timing! ( I know how to spell Aikido! )

(Wed May 13 1998 14:06 - ID#28593)
PS--on Kimtor Gold info--

We should keep in mind two things ( at the minimum {:- ) )

( 1 ) 28 billion ECU/EURO is considerably more than 28 bn DEM....
( 2 ) Kumtor is in an area of the world that is Muslim and rich in oil...and we know a tad about Muslims, oil and gold, yes? Surfaced from the files, a line trapped
in another story, which caught the eye:
That was widely seen as a move to curry favor with Beijing following the jailing for 12 years of one of its reporters, a mainland national, for 'leaking state secrets' in a story about China's gold reserves...

This is yet another Giant and the Doors challenge: state secret that
there was no gold, or state secret that there was very much more gold
than there should have been? All that has been uncovered seems to indicate the later.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:07 - ID#286234)
John Disney, Oris
The girls can often be found at KB&G, chatting with one of the guys in particular ( not me ) .

BTW I am thinking of offering Aikido and Tai Chi in the early morning, out back in the alley, before opening the bar.

Ran out of pickles last night. Anyone have a few gallons I could borrow until tomorrow?

KiTco BaR & Grill
ICQ 11998901

(Wed May 13 1998 14:12 - ID#429395)
No more Galt
Now days, it is called Cambridge. Galt was merged with two other towns. Today's politicians care little for preserving the memory of the past.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:13 - ID#286230)
Glenn Gould Biography with pics
Gould live in Orillia shortly before his death --the home town of Gordon Lightfoot and just 60 miles north of Peter Munks office.

That is it and thanks Ann

(Wed May 13 1998 14:13 - ID#269409)
@ HepMeMoney think I didn't have a sense of humor before? I'm hurt! Now what did you mean though by "My investment getting hammered into the ground?"

I hope you weren't referring to my happy, smiling, Morgans, Walkers, and Mercury dimes ( or the shiny, "highest conductivity metal in the world" silver bars ) .

After all, at an average buy price of $4.48 ( AFTER factoring in this weeks ill timed purchase ) , it's still a good 22% in the green. Not bad for 6 months? And it coulda been worse, I might have bought GOLD a year ago when it was 14% higher than today!

OK...pompous, arrogant, blowhard, self aggrandizing, boorish,. post time is over. Just wanted to add that bit o' reality check into the equation of the definition of "hammered"

(Wed May 13 1998 14:15 - ID#269409)
@ HepMe Money..corrrection
Make that TEN months not six... ( time flies when yer havin fun, where's my abbucus at? )

(Wed May 13 1998 14:15 - ID#340459)
Why is XAU down today ?
Any ideas ??

(Wed May 13 1998 14:15 - ID#233199)
Hey Midas...I get nuked .. you can have my gold as well1

(Wed May 13 1998 14:20 - ID#286230)
One more
Orillia is just 150 miles or so south of McNish Township Ontario where Flag Resources ( FGR.A ASE ) is about to make a lot of guys including Mooney rich first with Base metals and then Gould.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:24 - ID#269409)
@ Tyoung...SSC
FINALLY filled that 1.00 SSC order, and look at that volume! Did we snag a "bottom fish" here or what!

(Wed May 13 1998 14:27 - ID#20135)
Nothing you haven't heard before but very interesting...

To: +thomas becker ( 11414 )
From: +Richnorth
Wednesday, May 13 1998 2:16PM ET
Reply # of 11586

Asians are beginning to react like I said they would.

( The following article was culled from The Far Eastern Economic Review at

Fund Under Fire

The IMF has never flown higher--nor drawn so much flak. The debate is
about more than fiscal policy--it's about national sovereignty in a
borderless world economy.

"The IMF is managed by the U.S. government," he insists. "They have a
plan to make the country bankrupt so that American companies can come
and buy everything very cheaply."

Disaffection with market forces is even prompting an ideological rethink.
Students at Bangkok's conservative Chulalongkorn University have
formed a Marxist discussion group. And even some businessmen are
entertaining doubts. "Perhaps we should take a closer look at China's
concept of a social market economy," suggests Sophon Supaphon,
president of state-owned Bangchak Petroleum.

This may sound far-fetched in a country which still bans communism and
whose reliance on Western markets far outstrips its trade with China. But
Southeast Asia's traditional response to dominance from one direction is to
restore balance by moving in another. If the economic crisis in Asia is
reaffirming the power of the U.S and the influence of market forces, some
analysts see China, with its gradualist approach to market opening, as the
main counterweight.

Beijing has been quick to score points by offering aid and trade and
boosting diplomatic and security ties. Two high-level Chinese trade
delegations visited Asean countries at the end of April. Meanwhile,
Malaysian Defence Minister Syed Hamid Albar has said that his country is
considering holding bilateral security talks with Beijing.


I think the movement of the BIS office to China shows that a alternative to the IMF is close at hand for ASIA.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:28 - ID#153102)
@The Psychology of Fund Transfer
The image of the Japanese depositor patiently feeding paper to an ATM abides. She must have done this to avoid embarassing her Japanese bank with the fact she was moving funds to a Foreigner's bank. Or, she was paniced about the safety of funds to the extent she was afraid a check would not clear. Funds moves after the mind moves.

Then, I'm thinking of EB's questions about coins. It's like "OK, if I buy this insurance policy, is there any money back gurantee ?" EB is probably not thinking like that, but the question of convertibility is fundamental to a choice of currency when you are moving funds. Every advantage of speed and convenience of convertibility has been put in place for fiat paper. Obstacles abound in the way of gold. Except for its derivative, paper gold.

I think I remember an advertising slogan saying, "Get some control of your life." Pete is right, of course. He who has the gold makes the rules is the worldly man's version of the golden rule. I think World Gold Council should advertise that "Gold will give you some control of your life." But, even if they don't, as the uncertainty, turbulence, and turmoil of a world in debt beyond rational belief increases, people will advertise the fact to themselves. When you go outside and the sun is shining and you watch people calmly attending to their affairs, it is difficult to imagine them abandoning the greenback. The news that people overseas have abandoned the greenback will not mean much to most of them. Americans, except Southerners of heritage, know nothing of political catastrophe. Southerners usually have some confederate money around to remind them. People have been beating their heads against this System for a lot longer than the gold bear has lasted. The identification of society and government is the essence of the word totalitarian. And most Americans have psychologiclly submitted to the totalitarians. They use the words society and government interchangeably, as in, "Money is what society says it is." Oh, the arbitrary power of definition. The emperor is divine. His word is law.

Public, legal robbery is the basis of elections in the USA. So long as the taxing power is intact, the politicians are going to send out collectors to gather forced contributions for social security and tax payments to satisfy the interest on the debt. I think we are on the verge of the greatest short squeeze the American people have ever experienced. And transferring funds to some unit of account, medium of exchange, and store of value which is less easily expropriated will soon be uppermost of the minds of many of them.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:29 - ID#262242)
Hot News

(Wed May 13 1998 14:29 - ID#431116)
I believe the French nuclear testing took place in 1995/96 ( 5 in 1995 and 1 in 1996 )

(Wed May 13 1998 14:34 - ID#252127)
Small is beautiful an you get it at a good price AURIZON

Aurizon Mines triples cash flow and makes a small profit with their realized gold price of $314 http://www.newswire/releases/may1998/13/c2941.html

At the bottom of the article is a link to Aurizon's web site and a means for you to read other articles provided by Canada Newswire, for some serious due dilligence.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:35 - ID#231337)
Munk's comments - Please help me understand...
Munk's words contract his actions. Please help me understand...

TORONTO, May 12 ( Reuters ) - The establishment of a European
central bank will have a negligible impact on the future price
of gold, Barrick Gold Corp. Chairman Peter Munk said during a
spirited sermon to shareholders at the company's annual
meeting on Tuesday.
Munk spared neither fire nor brimstone in a thundering
denunciation of those who have argued the European Union's 11
member countries will be major sellers of gold when a European
central bank is created on January 1, 1999.

Clearification: Europeans will not sell gold!! and don' let anyone convince you of that. Does'nt that imply that downward pressure on Gold will be reduced?

Gold analysts have said the European central bank's decision
to hold a certain portion of its reserves -- estimates range
from five to 30 percent -- in gold would be an important
benchmark for central banks outside and within the EU.
Central bank sales of gold were cited as the trigger for
gold bullion's dramatic fall from a 1997 high of $363 an ounce
to a low of $277.90 an ounce early this year.
Munk said the European central bank's decision, if and when
it was announced, would not change the fundamentals for gold

Clearification: Price of Gold will not be affected by Europe's decision to hold gold.... or does he mean by saying the 'fundimentals for gold bullion' will not change... that Gold must rise to a higher value? I presume he wants Gold prices higher.

Then why did he forward sell so much Gold!

(Wed May 13 1998 14:35 - ID#252127)
Small is beautiful an you get it at a good price AURIZON

Aurizon Mines triples cash flow and makes a small
profit with their realized gold price of $314

At the bottom of the article is a link to
Aurizon's web site and a means for you to read
other articles provided by Canada Newswire, for
some serious due dilligence.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:36 - ID#238295)
Midas: XAU and other gold stock indexes were flat a few minutes ago.

Once again KITCO gold sentiment proved a great contrary indicator -- negative in the extreme jus before things turned.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 14:37 - ID#384350)
@Leland, the IMF -The Evil Empire
Your link yesterday which exposes the IMF as the dirty F*ckers they are, explains what is really going on, and how their policies beget violence.

The problem with Indonesia, as well as many other nations, was that they got suckered into taking foreign debt, and when their loans were called they couldn't dig up the foreign currency to make payments.

Indonesia is a bit like a Monarchy, which in my view is much less corrupt than "so-called" democracies where corruption runs wide and deep. Monarchies in Europe such as Monaco or Liechtenstein, or even Luxembourg have lower taxes, and are much more prosperous than the socialist countries of the western world. Indonesia has built up a population of 200 million on a relatively small land area. Compare that to Europe or N America where young people can't afford to have children.

Something similar to whatIndonesia is experiencing, happened in the Phillipines who had massive foreign borrowings. Marcos was disposed so that International bankers could take over the nation's currency and thus its industry as well. The poplation is now enslaved to Internationalists as opposed to being subjects to a sovereign leader. Aquino ( Corazon's husband ) was just a tool used by the Internationalists to stir up trouble and to start riots.

If we look at the riots in Indonesia, they too are getting violent, however not because of the students, but because of outside individuals joining in with the students and instigating revolution. International news programs show the opposition party ( tools ) demanding that Suharto step down.

I don't mean to defend Suharto, but the latest series of riots started because of IMF mandates.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:37 - ID#252127)
Small is beautiful an you get it at a good price AURIZON
Think I got it.
Aurizon Mines triples cash flow and makes a small
profit with their realized gold price of $314

At the bottom of the article is a link to
Aurizon's web site and a means for you to read
other articles provided by Canada Newswire, for
some serious due dilligence.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 14:38 - ID#384350)
Former Irish Head of State, John Bruton, pushes for NWO
On TV news he misleads in saying that Irish neutrality won't be sacrificed by "The Amsterdam Treaty" which pushes for a unified European defense policy. Then concedes that EU is heading for a joint military, and said something like, "Look at Bosnia and all the people killed there, while Europe did nothing."

Yes Indeed,look at Yugoslavia, a pellmell of different races, religions, and nations forced under one flag by the "Masters" in 1945.

Will there be civil war in the Union of European States as well in 50 years time?

Then in another matter, Mr Bruton sharply criticized as racist the remarks that a small-time politician made in that the govt should use implanted smart chips in the "gypsy" community as well as in animals ( like cattle ) to track their whereabouts. Bruton said that discriminatory remarks like that will not be tolerated.

Yes Mr. Bruton I see your plans, Smart chip implants for all citizens, be they gypsies or not, all people except politicians, no doubt.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 14:39 - ID#24135)
The reason I asked...
was that Ive been a Gould fan since
University days .. humming during the
GOLDberg variations. Super intelligent..
talented ...weird guy.
Every time I meet a Canadian sooner or
late I ask what they thought of him. Not
one I met had ever heard of him. It must has
been a bad sample.
Does anyone know exactly what he died
of ???

(Wed May 13 1998 14:42 - ID#25171)
The sharp fall in silver was initiated by stop losses after speculators established long silver positions and /or thought WB would support prices around 6.20.
The reason behind the extension might be that the CLINTON administration wants sanctions against INDIA ( by the way they didn t sign the non proliferation treaty.FRANCE had not signed it until it completed its experiment in the south pacific in summer 95 early 96 ) So people fear that INDIA might be unable to import as much silver as last year.
Even if sanctions are imposed and even if silver is affected, there are going to be some nations which don't participate in the sanctions and will be willing to broker the silver to INDIA.
The retracement is technical and might extend further.
I would scale down my buying from here and stop myself below 5$

(Wed May 13 1998 14:42 - ID#286230)
The biography I posted below says he died of a stroke in his early '50s

(Wed May 13 1998 14:44 - ID#286230)
About the time I was selling Venterspost, Cons Modder, Braken, Western Areas and Durban Deep

(Wed May 13 1998 14:45 - ID#410215)
..... Platinum Info .....

Regarding buying platinum or any other metal:

When I take an order, it is for the ask price at that precise moment ( or bid if it is a short ) . The price is locked in. When a client has money in house we will ship immediately. If it is a new client, we will let them place the trade before money is in house, but we must receive wire or check within 24 hours. Wire transferred funds are considered immediate good funds and shipment will occur within 48 hours. Personal checks are on a ten day hold.

Regarding buy back: For 30 years my company has bought back what we sell, at the fairest bid prices I know of. This is why people come to us, for nobody else can make that claim. I just bought back some silver rounds we manufactured in the eighties, We don't even sell those anymore, but I gave her spot price. Current bid on gold Leafs and VPs: about $2 OVER spot. PE bid is about .80 over spot. Any other dealer I know off would pay spot or below.

This is not a solicitation but a response to questions asked.


Skip -

This was short covering today. Platinum and Palladium are trading on the June contract. First delivery notice is May 29. This is where you find a short squeeze happening. The price is bid ever higher in a desperate attempt to get the metal the holders of the sell side of the contract are required to deliver. The recent drops in platinum have been surrogate trades for palladium. As palladium goes through the roof, and the metal is nowhere to be had, the only protection against the palladium losses is a hedge in long platinum. This means new buying and the price will rise. This is how the PGM market is acting today.


(Wed May 13 1998 14:46 - ID#286279)
John Disney
There is an interesting docubiovideo on Gould, sorry, can't remember what he died of. If you can't find it to rent you could always order it.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 14:49 - ID#24135)
Thanks Selby..
Read the excellent bio..
he died of a stroke..

(Wed May 13 1998 14:53 - ID#231337)
Glen Gould....John Disney
He died of a stroke or anurism... I heard him play in Winnipeg
about 1959 or so. He was outstanding. He moved from live to recorded performance only, and had a facination with North and Northern people.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:54 - ID#286230)
John Disney
If you plan to get to the Toronto area in the next few years let me know and I'll see if they have the Gould home/museum operating at the

(Wed May 13 1998 14:54 - ID#289357)
FLASH from the Drudge Report


**Newspaper Developing Blockbuster**

The DRUDGE REPORT has been briefed on a new shock story coming from Jeff Gerth of the NEW YORK TIMES. The report, expected to drop in the next week, will present evidence of what is said to be illegal sales and a transfer of technology to China 'without' presidential waiver.

Being described as a 'high impact' story, Gerth's report has become the talk of official Washington.

Gerth has collected more information and has more material on the situation than even the FBI, according to intelligence.

"It's going to be one hell of a report, with deep implications," a well-placed Washington source with specific knowledge tells the DRUDGE REPORT.

Just when the story will break has become top intrigue in the capital city.

Gerth's first alarm on U.S./China tech ran Page One on a Saturday -- the day of lowest circulation for the NEW YORK TIMES.

"There is something other than news going on in the newsroom if that happens this time," notes one story watcher.

The story is said to revolve around the illegal sale of classified missile guidance technology to Communist China -- as well as the satellite launching technology known as MIRVING: MULTIPLE INDEPENDENTLY TARGETED RE-ENTRY VEHICLE.

On May 2, the Chinese launched a missile that carried two satellites that will help create a global cell-phone network for MOTOROLA, super reporter Bill Gertz will reveal in an upcoming NATIONAL REVIEW.

When there are two satellites on one -- MIRVING is present.

The Administration's spin will be that this specific technology is tightly guarded, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"But clearly China has got it, they're getting it," says an insider. "They are building the missiles .. they've got it somehow."

Space launch technology is identical to that used by strategic missiles.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:54 - ID#269409)
@ RJ
That lady selling those Silver rounds at the bottom is makin a big mistake! ; )

Also, thanks for the info. on Monex buy sell policy.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 14:57 - ID#24135)
I like Boxing Better..
I think Aikido is kind of .. I donno ..
sneaky I guess ..
I think boxing is more .. honorable..
but then at heart I'm really an animal..
and speaking of boxing and animals ..
My broker loves me and a few months ago
sent me about 30 videos of greatest fights
of the century... TODAY he sent me a real
mounted Springbok head with a World
Cup 1995 plaque on it.. The dogs hate it.

(Wed May 13 1998 14:58 - ID#373284)
SilverBaron - This is directly the Coward Erect's
treason in full display. The best President Chinese money can buy.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 15:01 - ID#24135)
Thanks Selby
.. Maybe when I visit Russell..

(Wed May 13 1998 15:01 - ID#373284)
John Disney - Aikido is like a form of physical pepper gas, in that I mean that
the harder you try to hit/harm a practitioner of Aikido the worse off you will be, inhale pepper gas and you will choke, when you gasp for more air, you choke even more, it gets worse the harder you attack/breathe.

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 15:05 - ID#24135)
Gee Tolerant1
that gives you no alternative but
to shoot them.. I guess.
Maybe that's the bad side of the
Aikido coin.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:10 - ID#410215)
..... JD .....

I boxed with your brother Russell once

I think he knew Aikido instead

It was like he wasn't there


(Wed May 13 1998 15:10 - ID#153102)
So, gold in the hand is no longer practical as money.

I saw your post on this. I think you will hear a lot of people in high places broadcasting your tune in the next several years if they have their way. If they do, you will be no doubt be voting for the Constitution of the New ( Regional ) States of America with pride in your practicality. You have certainly trashed the existing Constitution and common-law because they are by your opinion impractical for the modern world.

Mozel, imploring God to kill off the Social Security generation with Y2K or something before they can trash the rest of our heritage.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:21 - ID#373284)
You ruffian you. By the way, I was wondering with all the sweeping changes in RSA if they have made the cue-ball black and the eight ball white to turn things around like the rest of the country.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:26 - ID#28593)
This would be a VERY wothwhile read is someone could lay their hands on it??
Auteur Montani, Guido
Titre Il governo europeo dell'economia.
FEDERALISTA. Rivista di Politica. Pavia. Anno 39. No. 3. 1997. p. 124-177. All. )
L'ipotesi che qui si prende in considerazione  che si stia sviluppando un modello europeo di economia le cui caratteristiche salienti sono di tipo federale, e quindi non possono essere ricondotte n a un modello "nazionale" o "centralistico", n a un modello "internazionalista" o "confederale": tale modello europeo  quello di un "gold standard post-keynesiano" di cui vengono esaminate le caratteristiche pi rilevanti. L'analisi presenta anche un confronto con i sistemi del gold standard e del gold standard exchange per stabilire in che misura la moneta europea si ricollega al passato e in che misura innova. Infine si analizza il ruolo dell'euro nella possibile riforma del sistema monetario internazionale.

The hypothesis taken here for consideration is that an European model
of economy is being developed whose salienti characteristics are of federal type, and therefore cannot be led back neither to " a national " model or " central [government] ", neither to a international government " or " confederation " model ": such European model is that one of a " gold post-Keynesian standard " of which they have examined the more important characteristics. The analysis introduces also a comparison with the systems of gold the standard and gold the standard exchange in order to establish in that measure the European currency is referred to the past and in that measure innovates. Finally the role of the euro is analyzed in the possible reform of international the monetary system.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:29 - ID#411149)
Preacher- Thanks for THAT sermon, we gona get SAVED yet.
Really thought I was the only ONE tryin to keep those BEARS
on the RUN. Thanks!!

Old Gold- that PAPER game looks like a BALL game DOWN then UP???
More like SCREWY.

Anyway this may have been a BIG win today, we will see.

Tally Ho

(Wed May 13 1998 15:31 - ID#210235)
@gold vs. paper
I do believe we're way off track on the gold vs. paper argument, and have been since it was put forward by RJ about a week ago. Sure, paper is easier to use than metal, and electronic commerce is even better. The whole question is what's backing the paper or digital exchange.

Let's consider for starters the War between the States, USA. In 1862, to finance the war with greenbacks, the US went off the gold standard. The greenbacks fluctuated in value to as low as 33 cents, in terms of gold. But by 1872, it was back up to parity - Dec. 17, 1878, two weeks before returning to the gold standard.

What's interesting here is that a huge run on gold was expected, as people rushed to the banks, January 2, 1879, demanding gold for their bills. On the contrary, according to the New York Tribune, 1/3/79

"Resumption of specie payments was formally accomplished yesterday. The United States Sub-Treasury could not get rid of gold, and its receipts exceeded payments by $268,000 . . . . The event was celebrated by a National salute and the display of flags from Government and financial buildings." source: The Art of Contrary Thinking by Humphrey B. Neill, roughly paraphrased.

Now, what we need to do is focus on the real issue of paper money: How is it backed? Let's let the banks hold the gold in their vaults, just give us paper as good as gold. Otherwise, we are at the mercy of the markets, spending enormous resources to protect ourselves and corporations from the vaguaries of the currency market.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:31 - ID#153102)
So, gold in the hand is no longer practical as money.
Aikido is just self-defense stuff. Boxing is a sport.

Boxing has gone down hill since they allowed referees in the ring. Before that, the boxing ring was a true trial arena.

There is a vast, constant hunger among human beings to know the truth by a trial. Trials were held by fire, water, and combat until about 1215. Sport fulfills that hunger to witness a physical decision of truth for modern folk. When the trial is over, you know the score.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:33 - ID#288140)
John Disney
Admittedly it takes a high level Aikido Master to do this: He or she displaces his or her image to one side. So if you keep shooting straight you will alway miss. Sneaky? Well in a way I suppose it is. None can actually alter the flight path of the bullet as far as I know.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:35 - ID#210235)
Anyone want their name added to the ICQ list? I'll be posting one tonight or tomorrow. Curiously enough, nobody gets into fights at the bar. It BYOB, BTW. BBL.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:35 - ID#335379)
LGB, PolarBear, SSC, RANGY
Hello ,LGB, PolarBear:
Managed to buy SSC at $1USD, and more RANGY at $1/316 today.
More Silver on the way. I also enjoy good garage sales.


(Wed May 13 1998 15:35 - ID#238422)
Will gladly sell to you, my brother,
call option, 1 contract, 100 lbs. of pickles,
30 cents/lb premium, June delivery, $ 2.75 strike,
pickle juice is free. Commodity is located in
London, you pay freight...Buy now, pickles will go
up as Kitco people are learning more and more...

Disclaimer: These pickles are not for eating,
these pickles are for buying and selling...

Richard Burke
(Wed May 13 1998 15:42 - ID#411318)
XAU/Silver Reversal
Preacher: two hours ago you suggestion a bottom may be in for gold and silver today depending on the close. May gold is up but struggling to get through 300. The XAU looks like it might be forming an inta-day reverse head and shoulders. Gold did not lead the XAU up, but possibly the XAU will lead gold through 300 tomorrow. What fundamentals do you see supporting this?

Richard Burke
(Wed May 13 1998 15:44 - ID#411318)
Sorry -try suggested for suggestion in last post

(Wed May 13 1998 15:45 - ID#335379)
Prometheus, ICQ
Hello Prometheus:
Yes, Please add Nicodemus.
Please also tell me how access this room.
Thank you in advance.


(Wed May 13 1998 15:45 - ID#153102)
I wonder if your post was the whole, rest of the story.
But, anyway, what you propose is what FDR proposed in 1933. Here, put your gold in the banks to back the greenback. I guess we should know by now how that plan works out.

The decision to trust the bank or the government with my money is a decision I want to make. I do not wish to be the ward of the State.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:46 - ID#222231)
LGB, mozel
I take it that just because things are going right now, everything is okay, right? That throughout history, politicians and bankers can be trusted to manage fiat money, right? That every time in the history of man, whenever fiat money, without backing or convertibility to PMs was in effect, has ALWAYS failed, every time, and with disasterous consequences. Is this what you want for your children, or are you basically an opportunist? If so, you have no heart, right? This message, which you will never understand,has been brought to you by one too dense to recognise satire, right? Please try to answer the above without spouting the same old BS.

Mozel, I never said that gold was not money. I only say that a paper currency which is backed and/or convertible to gold is more practical for every day commerce. If the gold is re-evalulated to compensate for money expansion, then it would serve the same purpose.

Why knock my generation? Are you trying to use the same tactics as you know who? Your generation will make the same mistakes as mine, believe me.

BTW, does'nt BJC use Aikido?

(Wed May 13 1998 15:46 - ID#288140)
OK bro, one june pickle call, maybe I can make enough to buy REAL eatin' pickles, which of course are offered free at KB&G. ;- )

(Wed May 13 1998 15:49 - ID#288140)
Nicodemus and all
Just add ICQ # 11998901 to your contact list. Then when you see KB&G online just click [ICQ chat]

Gotta go do some things, see ya.

(Wed May 13 1998 15:54 - ID#317193)
Filled on CEF-time will tell.


(Wed May 13 1998 16:00 - ID#289357)
Richard Burke @ XAU

A Star formation today in the downtrend on the daily XAU candlestick chart - I get 83.10 for the close. I think it's a very good bet this is a reversal sign - up tomorrow.

(Wed May 13 1998 16:02 - ID#153102)
What you want is what FDR gave: practical paper currency backed by gold in the hands of the government. It's what we have.

And Social Security, too. And a constant flow of grants for "public investment" for worthy causes. It's a System. Demoncracy. And it works. Don't rock the boat. ( If they would just deliver the checks on Independence Day, it would be perfect. )

(Wed May 13 1998 16:16 - ID#225273)
Richard Burke,

Gold finished positively after breaking to new lows on this down move. The trendline for the upmove since January has held.
I don't have an exact figure for the XAU close, but the last I saw it was down only .03 points. Close enough for me.
Silver could not make it back to break even either. But it finished well off its lows. Silver has made a two-thirds retracement of its Aug '97 - Feb '98 upmove. ( Almost exactly two-thirds; roll over, Fibonacci, rockin' in two-by-two )

I'm happy with the action. My bias is strongly to the upside right now. But the table is set: if the metals and the XAU fall below today's low, we're in trouble for a while.

My best guess is this: Gold has seen two waves up since January; now comes the third. It should carry higher than the last one at $315 or so. We should get that $320 - $325 this time.

As to fundamentals supporting this, I try not to mix technicals and fundamentals. But, how about the total collapse of the world economic and political system that we see happening on a daily basis?
Or, maybe the world is figuring out that George Bush is no longer President of the United States.

And one to seriously consider: Are gold and the U.S. dollar now moving in tandem as predicted by ANOTHER? Look at the chart and decide for yourselves. I'll be interested to read some comments.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

PS. -- Jack really wanted us to know about Aurizon. The new project, Casa Berardi, has clouded the picture. This could propel the company to a higher tier among gold producers. But it could also trip ARZ up and set it back for years. The market is very cautious about ARZ right now.
Soon, though, the financing and the final go-ahead for the project should be announced. Then there will be the uncertainty of exploration success.
What I'm saying is that right now, and probably for the rest of the year, ARZ is not a straight up and down gold producer that will move higher with the gold price. It has some attendent risks that could hurt it some or help it a lot, depending on the outcome.

(Wed May 13 1998 16:20 - ID#14431)
S&P/Gold ratio not quite at new high...

Donald: I was wrong. Yesterday, I said that another up day for equities would probably put the S&P500/Gold ratio in new territory. Well, it went up, but just barely, nudging the S&P/Gold ratio to 3.755, now just 0.4% off its high for the century ( 3.769, on 3/20/98 ) .

So far, the S&P/Gold ratio is up 10.4% for the year. It was 3.402 at year-end 1997. And 2.014 at the end of 1996.


(Wed May 13 1998 16:24 - ID#347235)
Good news Bibi has apparantly told Maddy Alldyke to Kiss his Tuchas!!
Also Isreal struck back at Hamas across the border today after they shot 2 soldiers and fired rockets FIRST and Yassir wants peace? Yeah Right, I am the Pope His Holiness Moses II the first Jewish Pope!

It should be good for gold if there is a conflict tho.

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 16:33 - ID#212323)
Mozel... did you spot my 12:24 post to you?
Job well done, in a nutshell... with fluff.

Quixotic 1
(Wed May 13 1998 16:42 - ID#48200)
India sets off 2 more nukes !! Whats next ??

5/13/98 -- 3:10 PM

India sets off 2 more surprise nuclear tests, says essential to

NEW DELHI, India ( AP ) - A defiant India set off two more underground nuclear explosions
Wednesday, even as President Clinton ordered up tough new sanctions as punishment for the
nation's nuclear test blasts.

Sounding like a cold warrior, Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee insisted the five surprise
tests this week were necessary to protect his country in a nuclear world - a need that outweighs the
world condemnation they have brought.

``Some countries think only of their own security and that they alone can take steps using nuclear
technology to protect their borders and that others cannot do so. We cannot accept this,'' Vajpayee

Three underground nuclear explosions Monday and two more Wednesday prompted the United
States and other countries to announce immediate sanctions in an urgent attempt to stop a new
nuclear arms race.

But the tests were welcomed in India, which suffers from poverty and ethnic and class divisions, as a
sign of power, scientific sophistication and its ability to stand up to world opinion.

``Ideally, I'd like a nuclear-free world. But that's not the reality today,'' Vajpayee told supporters
gathered outside his home to shower him with rose petals and hail him as a hero. Vajpayee has said
India faces nuclear threats from neighboring China and Pakistan, with whom India has fought four
wars in the last 50 years.

China is known to have developed nuclear weapons and Pakistan is suspected of it.

China did not immediately comment Wednesday, though it condemned Monday's tests. Pakistan
was determined to respond with its own tests since ``it seems that the Indian leadership has gone
berserk,'' Pakistani Foreign Minister Gohar Ayub said.

India also said it was prepared to reopen talks on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, but this time
as a nuclear state.

India refused to sign the treaty approved in 1996, saying it froze the advantage of nations such as the
United States and France that already tested and refined sophisticated nuclear weapons. The treaty
does not require countries to give up their existing nuclear weapons.

In India, all the five tests were conducted near Pokaran in the Thar desert, 330 miles southwest of
New Delhi. None released radioactivity into the atmosphere, the government said.

``We felt a slight jolt in the afternoon but it was very little compared to what happened two days
ago,'' said Lakshman Singh Suthar in nearby Chacha village.

The government said Wednesday's explosions measured less than 1 kiloton - much smaller than
Monday's, which international monitors estimated at 10 kilotons. The bomb the United States
dropped on Hiroshima was 15 kilotons.

Indian officials said they exploded devices, not bombs, differentiating between a research tool and a
weapon. India's first test, 24 years ago was conducted at the same range.

President Clinton on Wednesday ordered an end to U.S. assistance to India - except for
humanitarian aid, an exemption that will lessen the impact on India's millions of poor. Clinton said he
found India's actions ``deeply disappointing'' and urged other nations to impose sanctions.

``I hope the government of India realizes that it can be a very great country in the 21st century
without doing things like this,'' he said in Germany. ``It's a terrible mistake.''

Clinton said he telephoned Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and urged him not to respond in

The sanctions also prohibit the export of certain defense and technology material, end U.S. loans and
credit guarantees to India, and require U.S. opposition to loans to India from international institutions
such as the World Bank.

The ban on loan and guarantees could prevent Indian companies from raising capital for joint
ventures with U.S. companies and make it difficult for government agencies to fund infrastructure
projects on which U.S. companies might bid.

If more nations join the United States in imposing sanctions, experts say India could face the same
economic hardships the international community imposed on South Africa to protest its racial
separation policies in the 1980s.

World Bank loans might dry up and the U.S Export-Import Bank, which provides political-risk
insurance to U.S. exporters, could freeze projects awaiting approval.

Japan, India's largest donor, suspended $30 million in grants, and Germany called off aid talks with
Indian officials. A portion of new development aid worth $168 million for India was frozen.

The Danish government said it froze $28 million and Sweden said it would cancel a $119 million aid

U.S. law calls for automatic sanctions on any ``non-nuclear'' country that conducts nuclear tests.
India is considered one until international nuclear authorities confirm it has the bomb.

Copyright 1998 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published,
broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

(Wed May 13 1998 16:43 - ID#246224)
Springboks and boxing gloves. And growling little doggies. Ha! Am reminded a "FAR SIDE" strip of deer with riffles invading an office building and killing an over-stuffed office worker. "They've got Frank! Run!", "Great shot Bamb!", "He's a big one." Hope the 'bok' never finds its way to the floor or else your hounds will certainly make it unfit for a return to its former place of display.

(Wed May 13 1998 16:44 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.91 This is a new high. The 50 day moving average is 29.45, also a new high.

(Wed May 13 1998 16:45 - ID#194311)
IMF jackals on the prowl.....havoc on the way
INTERVIEW-Argentina rejects IMF focus on deficit
Followup-To: biz.clarinet.sample

CAIRO, May 13 ( Reuters ) - Argentine Vice President Carlos
Ruckauf on Wednesday scolded the IMF for picking on his
country's trade deficit and ignoring other positive indicators.
"After what happened in Asia, the IMF is like someone who
cries when they see a cow because they have been scalded by hot
milk," Ruckauf told Reuters in Cairo.
The economic crisis buffeting many Asian countries dominated
a three-day summit of G15 developing countries. The summit, at
which Ruckauf represented Argentina, closed on Wednesday.
"This is how they ( the IMF ) are when they look at
Argentina," he said in Spanish. "We have 10 good indicators and
two bad ones. They highlight the bad ones and forget the rest."

IMF, World Bank missions visit Belarus
Followup-To: biz.clarinet.sample

MINSK, May 13 ( Reuters ) - Missions from the International
Monetary Fund and the World Bank arrived in the former Soviet
republic of Belarus on Wednesday, spokesmen for both lenders

(Wed May 13 1998 16:46 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .279 The 50 day moving average is .268

(Wed May 13 1998 16:48 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 53.79

(Wed May 13 1998 16:48 - ID#28593)
The Giant, the Dwarf and the Doors: First, get their definition of door --

( 1 ) BT 5 MAR 1998 Sell gold through auctions, Euro central banks urged
Rothschild says move will be both practical and transparent
[KALGOORLIE, Australia] Banking group N M Rothschild & Sons Ltd yesterday called on the new European Central Bank to require national European banks to sell any gold reserves by auction.

( 2 ) On April 9, 1998 Mr. Guy, out of London, made additional comments:
LONDON - The European Central Bank and its national banks should privatise the management of their gold reserves and launch a gold euro coin, said NM Rothschild director Robert Guy.

( 3 ) He [Richard Guy, Director of NM Rothschild] proposed "five golden rules for gold privatisation".

verbatim et litteratim et punctatim
a. First, central banks should make clear statements on what they intended doing with their gold and why they were following a particular policy.

b, There should be no side deals with mines bullion banks or any other buyers. The central banks should do their best to get the right price. The best way was the open route of public auctions.

c. Third, the central banks should encourage buyers rather than just dump the gold on them.

d. Fourth, the European Central Bank should provide incentives, notably exemption of sales tax on gold in the European community. Shares of privatised companies did not have a sales tax. Thus gold, bought for investment purposes, should be on a level playing field if demand from private individuals was to be encouraged.

e. Moreover, the central bank should launch a gold euro which could be launched with millennium coins or medallions.

COMMENT: It so happens that two of the five points have come to pass:
ref: ( d ) tax-less gold
Sixth Council Directive 77/388/EEC of 17 May 1977--... Special scheme for gold ( COM ( 92 ) 441 final - Official Journal C 302, 19.11.1992 ) .
This proposal is aimed at introducing a zero rate of VAT for investment gold
[i.e., System gold, SDRer]

ref: ( e ) gold euro--it also exists, as we saw in the MDM post; MDM won by lottery the right of first sale and the right of purchase was also allocated by lottery.
In addition there have been a broader selection of Euro gold francs offered by various means, through various countries; there are also the ECB gold and silver coins.
So Rothschild is calling for a five-point platform, two planks of which are in place.
( The BT article did mention that Gordon Brown intended to raise the gold tax whilst UK had the six-month assigns very long odds on THAT bet ) .

Several points: ( 1 ) The schism between LBMA and Comex is widening, and the level of the rhetoric is heating up. In addition, pointed slams were made in the BT article at the IMF/USG sale of gold ( one would have to know what had happened in the past to have present comments take on their battle colors of course--the comments were superficially complimentary )

Can we define Door?

(Wed May 13 1998 16:54 - ID#153102)
In your words, "The vital element necessary is patience and intellegent application of leverage. Missing that, a person requires a knack for recognizing the precise moment when the equilibrium has been brought so out-of-balance that collapse is imminent. Because I lack that keen sense for timing the markets I find myself playing the part of the patient man. It isn't possible to be ready too early, because by definition it isn't possible to be ready after-the-fact. People preparing for the demise of the greenback by converting their savings to gold is exactly the leverage I refer to. Got gold?"

Assuming the participants on this forum are above average in intellect and education, the chat has convinced me of one thing for sure: it's going to be difficult to form an informed consensus to reform the institutions of this country in a crisis. So, lurching from crisis to crisis may become the norm here. Got gold ?

(Wed May 13 1998 16:57 - ID#212197)
Gianni Diorio: your 14:47 about the IMF and the Asian Crisis
I think you hit a few very important points.
1 ) Short term loans given by international bankers to local banks; this money was forwarded by local banks to businesses, sometimes even at longer terms than the loans from international bankers.
By calling back these short term loans the international bankers had an easy time to create the crisis.
2 ) The influence of internationally organized political agitation groups demanding "reforms".
What reforms? To allow more influence for international bankers and get rid of the local elite. It's a power struggle. There is nothing in the cards for the local populations. They will be the losers.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Wed May 13 1998 16:58 - ID#410215)
..... Taking things out of context, but .....

Mozel, you wrote :

"intelligent application of leverage."

Now you're talking my language


(Wed May 13 1998 17:03 - ID#93114)
Morgan Dollars For Sale

I read from a post yesterday that someone was interested in acquiring
some Morgan silver dollars...I have about 300 very fine to almost
uncirculated condition pieces available for half the price listed yesterday. If anyone is interested post your e-mail address and I will get back to you

John Disney__A
(Wed May 13 1998 17:03 - ID#24135)
Shadow Boxing
for RJ .. Russell is a will o the wisp.
for Allan .. You got that right about the dogs
for Oris ... can you just order the free pickle juice ?
for Sam ... How about a shotgun ?
For Tolerant1 .. yes we call that affirmative pool

(Wed May 13 1998 17:06 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....


I see now that you were quoting AragornIII ( where are the other two Aragorns I ask? )

So we still speak different languages

Oh well.....

But Aragorn and I understand Aragornian


(Wed May 13 1998 17:07 - ID#28593)
Someoone with technical knowledge...canst clarify this please?
Bulletin EU 7/8-1997
"Council agreement confirmed on 7 July. Having noted the positive result of the technical verification of the capacity to produce euro coins made
..........Nordic gold alloy.......

What pray tell, is a Nordic gold alloy?

(Wed May 13 1998 17:07 - ID#320136)
TO ALL: All The Declared Fort Knox Gold
Why does the USG knock/ignore GOLD ownership, most notably that "SOB" ( 'so-opposed-to-bullion' ) Reukeyser, yet is NOT on record for having sold any ( gold ) for many decades?

Who's got the answer to this ? All Kitcoites are invited to attempt an explanation to this mystery ( and don't be scared! )


(Wed May 13 1998 17:12 - ID#194311)
gold crystal structure...just in case

(Wed May 13 1998 17:18 - ID#252127)

In any event for 42 US cents you get a fairly consistant operator, not many of the bigger miners can boast about that.
My feeling is that TVX and Golden Knight gave up on Casa Beradi because they seen greener pastures. Mining in Greece and Africa have risks also, but I hope that they succeed.
Aurizon will get a developed infrastucture and a 1550 metric tpd mill.
I think that Aurizon made a fair deal, nothing is sure as we see the state of many miners today.
They don't have to mine Casa Beradi at full blast to double their present production which is scheduled at 47,000 ounces for this year. I feel that they will be attentive to the past problems; they have my vote.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:20 - ID#153102)
It is the belief of the less clever, less nimble people like those in the tribes of the Mozel and the Aragorn that

Possession is leverage in a class unto itself and infinitely superior in suddenly changing circumstances to all non-possessory kinds of leverage.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:22 - ID#212197)
SDRer__A: The Rothschilds want all the Gold from Europe!!!
Date: Wed May 13 1998 16:48
SDRer__A ( The Giant, the Dwarf and the Doors: First, get their definition of door-- )

Wow! You found again something really important!
What that means is: the Rothschilds want all the gold from all the European CBs. And they want it cheap. So, auction off the stuff!
That's their tradition.
Remember how Nathan Rothschild got almost all the "completely worthless" bonds from the Bank of England, after he was the only one ( for one single day ) who knew that Wellington had defeated Napoleon! He basically bought the entire Bank of England for an apple and an egg.
Now, one of his descendants wants 10,500 tons of gold. For thin air.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Wed May 13 1998 17:22 - ID#222231)
That is not what I want. I did not cause the enactment of the FRB, Social Security or the election of FDR anymore than you. I have to live with it, same as you. What do you want me to do, pick up a gun and show them who is boss? I fight the system in my little way. Discretion is the better part of valor and I'm not about to become a martyr until my back is up against the wall.

Why do you insist on calling me unpatriotic? I have the same feelings about the system as you, but I also know my limitations. Do you?

(Wed May 13 1998 17:27 - ID#288260)
Quixotic 1 16:42
I can remember when the Canadian Taxpayers ( Who loaned the money to India to buy the Candu reactors that made the fissionable stuff ) were assured that no nukes would be made. Also if they really want to hit India stop all transfers from the rest of the world to Indian banks. ( A lot of expatriate Indians living in North America must transfer millions back home yearly ) That would hurt the average Indian and let them know what the rest of the world thinks of them. ( one wonders if they would be so full of "pride" then. )

(Wed May 13 1998 17:28 - ID#29048)
SDRer and Nordic Gold
Cu89 Al5 Zn5 Sn1

Copper Aluminum Zinc and Tin

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 17:32 - ID#384350)
History of Banks
From the Aug-Sep 93 ( Vol 2, no. 15 ) issue of Nexus Magazine. Extracted from the Book, "War Cycles, Peace Cycles" by Richard Kelly Hoskins. Published by : The Virginia Publishing Company, PO Box 997, Lynchburg VA 24505, USA.


Archaeologists digging in the ruins of ancient temples, or ziggurats, in Babylonia have discovered extensive evidence of the economic system practised by the priests of Baal. Instead of finding money ( or coins ) as we know it, we mostly find clay tablets representing promises to pay--or IOU's. Along with the clay tablets has been uncovered the secret of their economic system, a system in some respects more efficient than our economic system today.

People only borrow when they are in need or if they are greedy and think they are getting a bargain. In Babylonia after a bad crop year, the farmers would be forced to go to the priests of Baal for a loan to buy seed for the following year. Let us say a farmer named Seth was one of those who needed money for seed. The temple priests were most accomodating and graciously allowed Seth to borrow 10 talents under condition that he repay 11. His land, livestock, wife, children and he himself served as collateral.

In that day there was little money in circulation. The sudden appearance of 10 talents in circulation allowed Seth and all the other farmers to buy seed and plant great fields of grain. They also bought cattle, sheep and many other necessary things. Here we have a situation of a debt of 11 talents coming due while there are only 10 talents in circulation with which to pay.

We can imagine that Seth was panic-stricken after having paid back 10 talents and finding that he still owed one more, and that there was no way to pay because there was no more money in circulation. He could offer the priest thousands of bushels of grain in payment, but the contract he signed was due to be paid in TALENTS--not grain. Cattle? Seth had herds of cattle, pigs, and flocks of sheep--these were also turned down. The contract was to pay in TALENTS--not sheep and pigs. Seth had gathered up the only 10 talents in circulation to pay down on his 11 talent debt and now there was no money to be had. Land, corn, cattle, sheep and pigs had no value as payment against his debt. The contract he had signed stated that he was to pay "talents" only, and there were no talents in circulation.


Now arrives the moment of truht--default--bankruptcy. Since Seth could not pay his debt of 11 talents when there were only 10 talents in circulation, he must forfeit his collateral. His livestock went first, his lands next, then his children were sold into slavery as well as his wife, and then he himself became a slave. This is where most slaves came from--debt. Besides Seth and his family, there were tens of thousands of Babylonians who could not pay debts of 11 talents when only 10 talents were in circulation. By the thousands they were herded into captivity. The priests of Baal reduced a large part of their fellow countrymen to slaves and the "system of interest" spread wherever Babylonian armies marched or Baal priests practised their religion.


Since the earliest times there have been banks and bankers. The type of bank which was approved of, operated simply to bring a person with money together with a person who needed money, and together they became partners in a joint venture business enterprise. For this service, banks charged fees. The other kind of bank which was disapproved of, operated on the Babylonian principle of lending 10 and collecting 11. The first one was necessary, natural, and orderly; the other unnatural and disorderly. The reasons the disorderly "interest system" has been forbidden to faithful Christians ( and Muslims ) are obvious. If you borrow 10 and are forced to pay back 11, sooner or later the lender, or usurer, will take your property.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:34 - ID#28593)
Speed --Thank you! {:-)) Incredible array of knowledge on this forum! --Very much enjoyed your
Offshore, looking back... The REAL graduate school, yes? {:- )

(Wed May 13 1998 17:34 - ID#26793)
Just a guess but Nordic Gold Alloy could be the stuff they are going to make the new US one dollar coins. It is a gold colored metal of some sort. I heard that the Euro coins will be the same.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 17:35 - ID#384350)
InRe: my 17:32 History of Banks
Isn't this what happened to Indonesia?

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 17:36 - ID#212323)
Mozel --Well jeeeeeeeeeze....
when you put it THAT way it sure sounds grim! Sometimes the truth hurts like a pulled tooth. I guess there is little hope trying to convince most people that the final scene in owning gold does NOT include the act of exchanging it back for a mountain of greenbacks. Sure, that may be done a little at a time during a transition period for the unenlighted who prefer payment in greenbacks over gold out of habit. The final curtain will only fall after gold itself becomes the universally preferred method of debt settlement.

got gold?

PS Among the many facets of my life I have occasion to do a great many things, one of which has landed me an interesting project. I am ( for not the first time ) directing the album artwork for a band's new release. The front is a photograph of the band's prior three CDs sitting atop a pile of US and foreign paper money and stock certificates. Also present is a healthy pile of gold bullion. The title of the album is "We came here for what it's worth..." On the back of the CD the paper has been reduced to scattered blackened ashes while the gold remains as shiney and yellow as ever. In parody of the milk campaign, at the bottom of the picture is the phrase "got gold?" The band is wild about this...

I feel this is a major accomplishment given the equity bull and the gold bear. But then, these are some savvy guys I'm dealing with.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:37 - ID#29048)
Nordic Gold
The only thing noteworthy about Nordic gold is that it contains no nickel and is therefore considered hypoallergenic. The stuff is 89% copper 5% Aluminum 5% Zinc and 1% Tin. Pretty and base.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:39 - ID#31868)
And this whole time I thought you were a Shakespearean monkee handler!

(Wed May 13 1998 17:41 - ID#28593)
Gianni Dioro__A (History of Banks) --Very nice! Thank you.
Donald@you're.right! Nordic juxtaposed to gold led my thoughts
toward tin etc., but always best to be sure. Thank you.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:43 - ID#26793)
SDRer; more on Nordic Gold Alloy and the Euro

(Wed May 13 1998 17:46 - ID#26793)
Did you see the beautiful three-masted ship eastbound down L.I.S. between 3 & 4 PM? Under full sail.

(Wed May 13 1998 17:48 - ID#288140)
John Disney
Well, nobody is invincible. The technique was originally perfected to evade arrows of course. Still, I wouldn't advise messing with an Aikido Master in some dark alley even if you have a shotgun. :- )

(Wed May 13 1998 17:50 - ID#252150)
Tolerant@They are whiter than most of us--just have good suntans
Refering to the Indians as non-white: Did'nt the Aryans migrate north from the sub-continent?

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 17:57 - ID#212323)
Lest there be confusion, let me say...
my 17:36 was a reply to Mozel's post at 16:54. I guess the intermediate post disrupted the continuity a bit, hence the potential for confusion.

RJ...It is indeed hard to walk in the large shoes of Aragorn II, I think you know what I mean...

Tolerant1...the days are grueling at times, yet the word in the monkey-room is that I'm the running favorite as our means to put an end to this cruel experiment. However, some days are nothing more than... jdsajelskjfa; dskjajd ksajd akjdja d;aoeoimvs m;s;kakfkeoowmc ssen

got gold?

(Wed May 13 1998 17:59 - ID#26793)
Saudi gold demand up 8%

(Wed May 13 1998 18:00 - ID#31868)
Donald - ah man, no
been napping, underground nucueler tests do that to me.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:00 - ID#368244)
@ Saul

E- MAIL list and price to

(Wed May 13 1998 18:01 - ID#39971)
LGB-To Clarify

" Your " was meant to discribe " anyone's " or " a person's ".The choice

of the word " hammered " was a reflection of your description of the GOLD

market as it was down less than a buck one day.I assume you used the word

for effect.Yes?Your humour escapes me ( and others ) all too often I guess.

I had a much different post in mind and written,but have realized little

will help to enlighten you on the way things are percieved outside your

( THE US ) sphere of influence.I also realize any/many posts regarding US

foreign policy regarding monitary matters are percieved as an attack on

the US and its citizens as a whole.This is unfortunate,both here in Kitco

Land and the REAL world.Those who criticize should be prepared for any

reciprocity and learn from that dialogue.We ( Canada/USA ) may not always

agree on issues of common concerns,but our open boarders,love and respect

for life and freedom and the ( North ) American way,should empower the

individual citizens of each country to voice their opinions freely here,

or anywhere else for that matter.Remember---GOLD is priced in USD and the

relative strength of the USD has an inverse affect on its price.Thus,any

information relative to the strength or weakness of said buckaroo should

be considered on topic and open to discussion without the flag waving and

chest thumping from a patriotic perspective.In fact,it appears that if

citizens invest in gold,by your stance,it is consider unpatriotic.Do I

have this right LBG?

PS:I am a patriotic Canadian and would fight for my country when and if

called upon,but I have yet to consider an investment in Gold as any less

an investment than a tech stock,an insurance policy,real estate,or what

have you.They all serve their own purpose.

Have a day.:|

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 18:01 - ID#212323)
Nuts... my 17:57 will likely be missed due to the time groupings...
So I raise this flag to Mozel, RJ, and Tolerantl ( but I know NOTHING gets by T#1 ) .

(Wed May 13 1998 18:03 - ID#359316)
ANOTHER is R. D. - NOT! ANOTHER is (see below...)
Date: Wed May 13 1998 04:12

(Wed May 13 1998 18:04 - ID#31868)
james, those folks in India are whiter than me,
my people are from Mongolia, way up in the hills. Of course when we came down and discovered tequila and realized it was too heavy to carry back up we just kept moving closer to the source.

A few more generations and we will be Mexican.

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 18:05 - ID#212323)
Tol...I just fell outta my chair!

(Wed May 13 1998 18:05 - ID#359316)
Curries now available as madras, vindaloo, phall and nuclear
Ancient Indian nukes?.......

Secrets of the Vimana

India's national epic, The Mahabharata

(Wed May 13 1998 18:07 - ID#225273)
Market Questions
To all:

Here's a question someone might be able to comment on.
I'm not much of an Elliott Waver, but I have noticed over the years that market moves do many times tend to make three waves in one direction with two counter-moves in the other direction.
I've also noticed that the second counter-move ( wave 4 ) tends to be very sharp and quick, giving the appearance that the original move is over.
This is what seems to have happened in the gold market the past few weeks. Gold saw a move up from 278 to 305 in January ( wave 1 ) . Then there was a counter-move to 288 ending on March 18 ( wave 2 ) . Next there was another upmove to 315 ending in late April ( wave 3 ) . Now there has been a very sharp and quick counter-move to 295 ( wave 4 ) .
So, in my thinking, the next logical market move is wave 5, a rise above 315, into the 320s and maybe as high as last October's high of 338.

Does anyone have any comment?

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 18:07 - ID#43460)
Aragorn III Did you burn the banknotes?
Or did you use a body double for them for the pics? And was the gold real or was it merely stunt gold?

Richard Burke
(Wed May 13 1998 18:08 - ID#411318)
Preacher - I think I remember you saying once that you were from Vancouver. I was, but have moved to beautiful Nanoose Bay where I am semi-retired ( still do investment banking with my own company ) . I'll buy you lunch on one of my trips to the City. My e-mail is Look forward to hearing from you.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:09 - ID#26793)
Fed seems to be mum on their action on bank reserves today.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:10 - ID#31868)
AragronIII - how many other test subjects, so I know the odds before I bet. And
yes, I got gold and silver and platinum and I keep buying more, this isn't a shoal draft keel on the boat ya know.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:16 - ID#26793)
First Euro coins are being struck

(Wed May 13 1998 18:17 - ID#225273)
Jack & Aurizon
I like the people at Aurizon very much -- John Harvey, Bruce Stubbs, and others. So I am certainly not an enemy.
I would like to say one thing about mining at Casa Berardi. It is my understanding that NO mining will take place unless and until the company is first able to DOUBLE the reserves there.
My understanding is that reserves are around 500,000 ounces. ARZ MUST double that to 1 MILLION or else it walks away.
This is why I say that there is exploration risk involved in the company now.
Now there could be much more than 1 million ounces. In this case, the stock should soar.
And next year the hunt continues for the high-grade massive sulphide deposit underneath the Sleeping Giant mine.
Still, though, there is an exploration risk in ARZ at this time that makes it something other than a straight play on the gold price.
That's all I'm saying.
Notice the stock has been very "heavy" ever since the deal was announced. Perhaps once the deal is finalized that will change. But the stock is actually down for the year even with the small rise in the price of gold.
So my thinking is that ARZ rates as a safe exploration play right now rather than a gold play with a junior producer.

Thank you,

The Preacher

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 18:18 - ID#212323)
gagnrad...while probably rhetorical in nature, I shall pose an answer anyway
The best actor on the set was the paper. It looked like money, smelled like money, came from a bank like money, but sure wasn't money. The air in the room improved after the flames purged it from existence. The gold was the worst actor of all. It just sat there all confident, like. I guess when you are playing yourself in a role, you don't have to act!

(Wed May 13 1998 18:18 - ID#153102)
@AragornIII @Gianni @Baal
Aragorn, your project is great, but I have gone from gloom to grim.

Gianni Your post tells it all.

The Chase Bank was the Priest of Baal to America. It loaned the USG more gold than it could ever pay back. In 1913 the worship of Baal was made the established religion with the Act of Congress creating the Federal Reserve System. In 1933 the offices of Chief Priest of Bail and Commander In Chief were combined in the Executive Office.

Most slaves in the ancient world were not in chains. Like modern slaves of Baal they were controlled by law. Chains are only necessary for those slaves who disobey.

Like the Babylonian farmer, we have a debt we can never pay. Our "money" is debt. It is Notes for Nothing obliging the payment of interest. Debt can never be paid with debt.

We marvel at the magic of compound interest in our accounts. We are usurious worshippers of Baal. We perish for lack of knowledge. We are too clever and too worldly wise to read a Bible. We not only do not know what is money, but we deny it is money. We not only do not know the law, but we deny it is law. Yet, we are controlled by it. We obey it. We are slaves of our own making, like the borrowing, ignorant farmer of Babylonia who did not know the law.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:20 - ID#225273)
Richard & Vancouver

That is a very generous offer. Thank you. But the truth is that I live in Atlanta, GA, beautiful downtown Hapeville, to be exact. I go to Vancouver twice a year and enjoy it every time.

The Preacher

Oh I wish I was in the land of cotton
Old times there are not forgotten
Look away, look away, look away, Dixieland.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:22 - ID#26793)
More evidence of Japanese deflation

(Wed May 13 1998 18:23 - ID#43460)
Quixotic, IMHO
My minority opinion is that I'm in support of Indian right to national self determination. India was a mature civilized society back when the ancestors of Bill Clinton, Nero, Aristotle and Xerxes II were all living in straw shacks and sh*tting in the woods. It strikes me as anathema that a wannabee one world govermnent run by second rate social democrats should try to tell these people how to run their lives.

I just hope that moron in the White House limits himself to harsh words. I'd hate to see him try to enforce any sort of embargo or try to use violence. IMHO

Aragorn III
(Wed May 13 1998 18:28 - ID#212323)
Tolerant1...I seem to have controlled my laughter at this point...
but only after much rolling around and re-reading your "tequila migration" post several times. Ok, I lied... I'm STILL laughing!

Got to make this gold-related somehow before posting...
I've GOT IT! Tol-man, that tale was gold!

(Wed May 13 1998 18:29 - ID#238422)
Sam/Aikido Master and Shotgun
It depends...If you do not know that your opponent in
the dark alley is Aikido Master and you got shotgun,
Master is dead meat...But if you know, than we got a
problem.Logical conclusion: You do not want to know...or
you should use special means, which brings us to
Recommended Universal Solution: 3 to 4 shots of my
favorite one before going into the dark alley.
This approach applies to PMs this moment.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 18:31 - ID#384350)
Addendum to my 17:32 post: History of Banks

The example used earlier of Seth borrowing 10 talents and having to repay 11 talents is strightforward and easily understood. But to elaborate just a little:

Suppose Seth goes again to the lender and borrows 10 gold talents and agrees to repay interest each year of 3-1/3 talents, and also agrees to repay the 10 gold talents whenever the Baal priest asks for it. Each year for three years Seth pays 3-1/3 talents. At the end of three years there is no more gold in circulation and Seth musht ask for a loan in order to pay the interest he had agreed to pay ( or forfeit his farms, children, etc ) .

The lender then has a choice: he can lend Seth gold talents with which to pay interest or he can give him a clay tablet which the lender says is worth 3-1/3 talents and keep his gold. Understanding money is common sense. Which would you do? You would give Seth a clay tablet and keep the gold. This is the reason for the clay tablet mentioned earlier. It was a loan substitute for gold. The citizens of Babylon treasured their clay tablets. They are found in great quantities today wherever excavating is being done in the ruins of Babylon.

We have mentioned the temple banks--they were big ones. There were also government banks, and private banks such as the Igibi Bank which flourished in 575 BC. These banks offered almost every service offered by banks today, including the use of cheques, savings, letters of credit, and the Babylonian form of paper money--the clay tablet. The banks kept the gold...naturally.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:38 - ID#26793)
Korean news
5 South Korea Firms Go Bankrupt

SEOUL - Five South Korean companies were declared insolvent
Tuesday as finance companies tightened credit lines under a
government policy of pulling the plug on nonviable companies.

The five were three units of Keopyung Group, one unit of Dong Ah
Group and Kyoung Hyang Construction & Engineering Co.

They went under as banks, worried by their own weak finances,
resumed collecting debts, deepening the gloom on the stock market
and adding to mounting concerns over a new wave of bankruptcies.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:39 - ID#373284)
gagnrad - I agree with you completely, that dirtbag, the Coward Erect has a lot
of nerve saying that India is not threatened by China. Ah yeah, and China does not have missles pointed at the US right now. The Coward Erect used that line in the Spate of the Union Address.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:40 - ID#432157)
Thoughts on GOLD

After reading all of to-days posts I get the feeling that there is a concerted effort by the big boys to get the price up eg Rothchilds & Munk comments etc

What say youall ?????

(Wed May 13 1998 18:50 - ID#263379)
@ HepMeMoney, and Pete
Boy...this communication medium must be lacking in efficiency! I talk about how I'm a buyer of precious metals, and then I'm accused of believing that anyone buying Gold is unpatriotic! Quite an amazing stretch....

I critisize the Govt. in vehement terms for their socialist / fascist leanings, and I'm accused of being a knee jerk defender of all policies U.S., regardless of their validity. Hmmmmm.

I agree with Pete in theory, but post my reasons for not believing the "sky is falling" ( at the moment ) ...and am called everything from an Opportunist to Satan incarnate!

What in the world is wrong with this picture? Maybe if I post under this moniker, my meaning will come through better....

(Wed May 13 1998 18:51 - ID#288295)
tolerant1 @ 18:04

Just curious - one of your people ( before the migration ) wouldn't have been Ghengis Khanamerian by any chance, would it? ( ;^ )

(Wed May 13 1998 18:55 - ID#263379)
Donald, your 18:38...South Korea
An article in the WSJ today about those bankruptices..and the SK stock market went to new yearly low on that news

(Wed May 13 1998 18:57 - ID#263379) good are they?
Also in today's Wall St. Journal....the report on how expert Analysts stock picks performed vs. randon chance ( darts ) and the DJ average. The analyst's beat the dart throwers this time for a change buy the DJIA beat the analyt's by a wide margin.

(Wed May 13 1998 18:58 - ID#290118)
NEW FRONTIER - cont'd.
Thanks all, for the responses re my New Frontier? Wed May 13 1998 05:31

Yes John, and Im still thinking on the subject {which I do best FWIW in the wee hours}.

I know the idea needs fleshed out. Here are some clarifications for now. Ill be back much later with more as I integrate the groups feedback.

GOLD as with other physical commodities embodies the effort put into creating them and/or transporting them to where they are more useful. The latter is best exemplified by a bottle of oxygen on Mt. Everest {or the Moon} versus at sea level. Same goes for information recorded on paper, in books, on computer disk, on photographic film or other media. We have all experienced having many hours of intellectual effort wasted with a file save error! All this we have created is the sum total of our intellectual and physical capital - individually, as a community, as a nation and as a species. This accumulated capital which we can pass on to others contrasts with consumption - mindless entertainment, disposable anything and other means of pissing our effort away with nothing left to show for it.

John, You are correct that GOLD bullion, coins, etc. do not generate income - no commodities do unless they are USED to create more wealth. GOLD laying in a vault does not do this; neither do cans of tuna stored in a closet or rifle cartridges stored in an attic. Many commodities LOSE VALUE in storage such as foodstuffs, gasoline, lumber, depreciating assets {computers, etc.} and perishable information but not GOLD, coal, or bottled oxygen {if sealed well enough}.

You are correct that PAPER, UNLIKE COMMODITIES, IS WORTHLESS! Am I correct that by backing paper debt instruments you mean that in case the papers maker defaults that GOLD will cover the debt? Come to think of it, Mozels checks could act as money - passing from hand to hand {given we didnt have to endorse them} - always with the faith that they are 1} authentic and 2} we could collect his GOLD if they bounced. The BANK OF MOZEL - his checks could have In Mozel We Trust and his picture on them!

Mozel, the post-it example wasnt good - but twas my best at the time. Hmmmm. Ill try not to step into socialist quicksand - please bear with my humble examples. One point Im trying to make is some people further up the food chain may reap more benefits from goods or services they receive than sum of what they paid for them in cash plus value added by themselves including adequate entrepreneurial profit {hang on before you crucify me as a socialist}. Example: you invent an idea for which you are paid $50,000 by a little software company. They in turn add $200,000 of intellectual and physical value and entrepreneurial profit and sell it to Bill Gates for $250,000. He then adds more value and profit and sells it to the masses for $1million. I {and 9,999 others} buy said software {which started with your idea} for $100. I may honestly derive $1,000 in value from your idea FOR WHICH YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAID MORE!

What do I do with the extra $900 {that hopefully I receive in cash}? I can spend it on wine, women & song; more computer toys; a payment on a mountain hideout, stocks or GOLD. Now you, as the inventor, wish you had been paid more from the extra value created from your idea. YOU COULD SPEND IT on wine, women & song, or ON GOLD or stocks. Regardless of who gets paid for the full value of your invention, you or Bill Gates, your idea created more wealth than any of the intermediaries could conspicuously consume so they poured it into, among other places, the stock market {and maybe mining more GOLD}.

Why is the stock market overvalued? IMVHO because, among other causes, there is too much money {capital} chasing too few entrepreneurial ideas. No IPOs have been done on commercial space transportation companies, lunar or asteroid mining ventures {where PM ore is higher grade} or other NEW FRONTIER ventures - YET! Not enough {or any} IPOs have been done for Gebernaxs ghost city cleaning, dump site recycling, etc. Why? Likely because more people value wine, women & song more than such worthy ventures. Why that - because sheople may be too lazy or stupid or both to do it or it is not worth doing. Maybe it is time to throw out the drunks so the rest of us can get some work done

Gebernax, I agree that wars are not started intentionally to destroy value - though terrorists and barbarians do so - like animals that spoil what they cant eat or carry off to store. But wars are also started, especially recently, by those who have too much time and capital on their hands and no better idea of what to do with it but to meddle in others affairs. This happens between neighbors as well as between countries. However they start, they are very effective in diverting production from useful enterprises to blowing each other up and destroying each others hard won capital assets. Wars waged by tyrants on their own people also destroy intellectual capital - be it executing the best and brightest or burning their books, etc. War does stimulate research but whether it is a net gain or loss - IMHO it is a loss.

Why am I pursuing this line of thought? To come up with better ideas for using and re-investing the capital created by our intellectual and physical efforts other than pissing it away or stockpiling commodities we will never use and which earn no return. THIS APPLIES TO EACH OF US PERSONALLY when we produce a good or service through our intellectual or physical effort and permit ourselves to be underpaid for it compared to the value reaped from it from someone else further up the food chain.

Fummer, your Sun May 10 1998 19:27 quote of Francisco from ATLAS SHRUGGED was apropos. The above thoughts are obviously influenced by Franciscos and John Galts arguments made to those they were recruiting for the STRIKE.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:04 - ID#403335)
I believe Aurophile can address your EWave count question. Using strick EWave rules, wave 4 can not overlap wave 1. This would make the count you suggested invalid. The most bullish count would have us begining wave 3 of 3. Another POSSIBLE bullish count would be that we are/have ended wave c of 2. Comments please.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:05 - ID#263379)
Platinum up $6.00 already overseas?
Platinum Eagles are our friends

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 19:09 - ID#384350)
SDRer, your Rothschild points
VAT is applied in many European Countries, in England it is upwards of 15%, I believe. VAT is waived only if possession is not taken. What fun is gold if you can't play with it?

As to gold Euro coins, I assume these are all commemorative coins selling higher than spot, and aren't expected to be used as money in circulation.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:10 - ID#340459)
Commodity prices are down largely due to weakness in Asian economies. I wonder why some Kitcoites
mention Asian market turmoil as harbinger of higher Gold and PM prices.
The major buyer's of Gold are in Asia and Middle East, and if their Revenues are cut then their buying power of Gold also diminishes. Moreover Market weakness there has led to stronger dollar which in turn means weaker Gold prices........

(Wed May 13 1998 19:15 - ID#401460)
Big Day Tomorrow!

HP earnings down below expectations, trading much lower on the Internet.

S & P Futures - 2.20 right now - and falling - 2.40.


(Wed May 13 1998 19:17 - ID#153102)
Cease participation in the inventorying of human flesh; for those who are counted thereby are as cattle or slaves, self-professed property.
Make an exodus from Babylon.
Forswear the worship of Baal and abandon the userious followers of Baal to their destruction.
Study the common-law.
For the day shall come when there shall be but one plea to release you from the hands of the soldiers of Baal and that plea shall be, "I am not one of yours."

(Wed May 13 1998 19:18 - ID#373284)
SilverBaron - yes, and he had an active outdoor lifestyle,
and used gold, no kidding. Lousy sailor though...

(Wed May 13 1998 19:18 - ID#288140)
Brother oris
Aikido Master is not your opponent unless you make him so, he has no ill will towards you, he quickly passes through dark alleys only when neccessary, I think. Three or four blasts of 12ga bird shot will sweep the alley, but will leave Master unharmed IMHO. Law enforcement types are moving away from buckshot, Im told, because it bounces around too much and its too penetrative. Im not martial arts expert but we could continue this fun topic at KB&G. Pickles and vodka on the house.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 19:19 - ID#209265)
did anyone else see this FT article? What do you think?
Hedging Helped Drive Down Gold Prices?

Central Bank Gold Loans

The dramatic growth in the use of hedging by gold producers in the past 10 years undoubtedly played a part in the fall in the price
of the metal - which in December sank to its lowest for 18 years - according to a new study from the World Gold Council.

Ironically, the relatively low price has produced a growing consensus in the gold industry in favour of hedging in some form, the
study suggests.

A year ago a successful hedge programme in most cases simply increased a producer's profitability, but today the survival of many
gold mines depends on hedging, it points out.

The authors, Ian Cox, a former head of precious metals trading at Samuel Montagu, the UK merchant bank, and Ian Emsley, an
economist and analyst with Anglo American Corporation of South Africa, say producers gradually realised gold prices were on an
extended downward path last year and accelerated their hedging activities.

This resulted in an estimated additional 500 tonnes of gold supply reaching the market, roughly equivalent to all the new gold mined
in South Africa, the biggest producer.

Hedging on this scale is not likely to be repeated in the short term, they say, partly because many new gold projects are being put
back because of low prices.

Nevertheless, in the "longer term, the situation could be different as the development of low-cost gold projects will bring new
volumes of hedging to the market at lower prices than are currently acceptable".

The growth of hedging was made possible by the increasing readiness of central banks to lend gold from their reserves to provide
the liquidity for funding hedge transactions. In the past 10 years central bank lending has risen from an annual 400 tonnes to about
4,000 tonnes.

The WGC is a promotional organisation financed by some gold mining groups.

The Financial Times, May 13, 1998

(Wed May 13 1998 19:24 - ID#28593)
Gianni Dioro --The in-depth regs refer to "their" gold
as "system gold"; we need to make the 'system' an expanding
universe, yes? {:- )

(Wed May 13 1998 19:25 - ID#401460)
You are right and that has bothered me; I think the perception and hope is that at some pointt, Gold and other PMs will be regarded as a safe haven.

There are only so many places for the cash to go, and the number of safe places are starting to deminish, soon the PMs may be one of the few alternatives remaining.

There are very few Mining shares and ounces of PM in existance; ther will be trillions of dollars chasing those few shares and ounces.

We Hope or is it more correctly, we Fear. IMHO,


(Wed May 13 1998 19:27 - ID#28593)
Steve in TO--re: FT story
From the earliest 'spear-tossings' to the Rothschild's April 9, 1998
salvo, Comex and the hedgers have a REAL problem, that is
what I think! {:- ) )

(Wed May 13 1998 19:27 - ID#413109)
MY Take on Rangy
FWIW, in my experience, over longer periods of time, when you see
the kind of accumulation as this chart indicates, where volume increases
while a sideways pattern forms,especially after a considerable drop, and the Stochastics look favorable, as they seem to, this doesn't look bad.
Check it out-----

Have also been following some of Mike Shellers little beauties, and
check out MOGN's action yesterday. If I had owned this one, I would
consider selling, with a nice profit, of course.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:27 - ID#26793)
@Elliott Wave fans
You should note that we closed within four points of 96 squared on the Dow today.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 19:28 - ID#209265)
Preacher - Elliott waves
The Elliott wave technician whoM I saw at a convention last month was predicting a decline ( which we are now experiencing ) and a subsequent rise to $350 - $400 before the next Elliott retracement.

The emphasis on 5 is there because of its status as a Fibonacci number.

- Steve

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 19:30 - ID#384350)
mozel, Redefining Usury
Because usury is against Christian principles, it had to be redefined from the simple loaning of money for interest, to the loaning of money at excessive rates of interest.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:30 - ID#401460)
Now India Hits the Skids

BSE 30

(Wed May 13 1998 19:33 - ID#432157)
Explain problem between COMEX and ROTHCHILDS------please

(Wed May 13 1998 19:34 - ID#225273)
RLM & EW Waves
Thanks for the reply,
I need some numbers to understand your perspective.
You wrote: "wave 4 can not overlap wave 1."

I'm not clear on exactly what "overlap" means in this instance and would also like to know how wave 4 has overlapped wave 1 this time.

I do understand your second scenario, I think. You are saying gold has just completed a wave 2 correction ( a-b-c ) and will now begin a 5-waves up Wave 3. Is this correct?

My thinking, although the words I used before may not have expressed it clearly, is that we are still in Wave 1, which is 3 waves up and 2 down, and we have just completed the second wave down and have one more upwave to finish Wave 1.

Is this what you understood me to mean?

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 19:36 - ID#225273)
Steve in TO & 350-400
To see gold move above $350 before the next correction would certainly be fine with me.

BTW, do you know Pat Sheridan in TO?

The Preacher

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 19:37 - ID#384350)
SDRer, Universal use of Gold
Definitely, it would be wonderful if gold's use was universal, however I don't see it happening until usury is abolished.

When this whole debt trap finally collapses, will honest money and honest banking resurface, or will they start the same debt trap all over again with bogus digital or paper money based on the fractional reserves of uncirculated gold?

(Wed May 13 1998 19:40 - ID#254201)
Preacher - Gold - What you call waves 1 - 2 - 3, look to me as waves A - B - C, Of wave 4 dating back to the 1996 highs on a weekly chart. Wave 3 was contained within a channel and wave 4 broke out on both sides of that channel. ( faking me out for awhile ) . There is a 5th leg down yet to come in both gold and XAU. There should be a brief 1 or 2 day rally before the seasonals turn down for a few weeks. Silver is a little different. It is making a C wave down of wave 2 correction. If A=C the wave 2 should be completed in the 5.00 area. Again a brief rally up to 5.60 maybe some what higher to work off this over sold condition then down. The problem here is the market is so weak in what should be a period of strength that 5.00 may not hold.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:41 - ID#401460)
The Natives are getting restless

Wednesday May 13, 7:20 pm Eastern Time

INTERVIEW-Argentina rejects IMF focus on deficit

``After what happened in Asia, the IMF is like someone who cries when they see a cow because they have been scalded by hot milk,'' Ruckauf told Reuters in Cairo.

``Our GDP growth is one of the highest in the world, our inflation rate lower than most nations... We're closer to fulfilling the Maastricht treaty than most of the European Union,'' he said.

``The Argentine position is that a company can't go and exploit oil in Argentina without paying royalties. These waters are Argentine even if they are occupied by the British,'' he said. ``They should be sanctioned.''


(Wed May 13 1998 19:45 - ID#26793)
Barrick Gold raises dividend

(Wed May 13 1998 19:48 - ID#288295)
This is why Elliott Waves are Useless for trading

Everybody has a different point of view, and wave count.

(Wed May 13 1998 19:53 - ID#26793)
Microsoft Chairman Gates must "make an offer" or face anti-trust

(Wed May 13 1998 19:54 - ID#254201)
Silverbaron - They are useless only if you don't know when, where and how to use anything else.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:00 - ID#381139)

Are you suggesting that any rally in XAU should be sold


(Wed May 13 1998 20:01 - ID#288140)
sharefin, Allen(USA), oris et all
Have you given any thought to survival knifes? I know even less about 'em than guns but I'll be happy chat the subject at KB&G. I just got a semi-custom Ron Gaston hunter for under $200 and a semi-custom Tim Hancock "utility" knife with ugly but practical plastic scabbard for $250. Ron is youngish, his stuff is beautiful and way underpriced IMHO. I think you are aware that some custom knifes have appreciated many thousands of percent over past ten fifteen years. I plan to use the Hancock, it will stand up to a lifetime of hard use.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:01 - ID#225273)
APH & Waves
Thanks, APH, I'll keep your perspective in mind, scary as it is.

The Preacher

(Wed May 13 1998 20:03 - ID#288295)

I meant that Wave theory shouldn't be used alone as a trading tool, but rather should be considered in concert with other indicators as a measure of probabilities. You have a fine record, and I'm sure you don't use only waves for your trades do you? Even the Wave guru Prechter has had an abysmal record the last few years using Wave theory by itself. Have you ever used his WinWave program?

(Wed May 13 1998 20:04 - ID#26793)
Bankruptcy looms for Japanese builders

(Wed May 13 1998 20:05 - ID#390415)
The Armageddon scenario....
starts to fall into place, as soon as we thought the millenium of peace and prosperity was unstoppable. If Pakistan and India start to go at it... You know, it seems like that area of the world has actually been one of the most peaceful, in a way. World wars in Europe, communist militarism in the USSR and Red China, the Southeast Asian conflict in the 60s and 70s, continuing revolution and bloodshed in Africa, a revolution du jour in South America in the 50's. Most of the armageddon-watchers have been looking at the Middle East as the place for the Big One to start. How odd that the peaceloving, non-violent people of India may be in the crosshairs now.

The twitchy trigger fingers in Pakistan and India.... A source of international tension that has now become a miniature, localized version of the Cold War.

China arming Pakistan, Russian arming Iran, Saddam not giving up: it ain't over yet, folks.

I am a software engineer. There are only a few places in the world that are rated at the very top in terms of the quality of their process for developing software. One is in India. That country is a force to be reckoned with in terms of its technical skills.

I am surprised the stock market in India didn't go down farther than the 4-5% it seems to have dropped.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:07 - ID#209265)
Gianni - money supply
I know this may seem like heresy to some of our hard-money people here, but the Babylonian banking article you posted points out one of the flaws of a hard-money system in which an elite controls the supply of the raw material for money.

As I recall, the panic ( crash ) of 1853 was caused when a fellow tried to corner the gold market, and the resulting illiquidity of banks trying to purchase gold to bring their reserves up to legal requirements caused runs on many of them. We also have the infamous Hunt Brothers' attempt to corner the silver market within living memory.

People often quote dark tales of evil one-world industrialists plotting to secretly bring central banking to the US in 1913 in order to facilitate economic breakdown that would allow them to consolidate their power.

The reasons were less subtle than that, though. It's true they met secretly, and pulled off an end-run around congress by supporting Wilson as their presidential candidate. The reason they were so determined to do this was that not some desire to undermone society. A credit squeeze had caused the panic of 1907, and they perceived the problem to be the fact that the gross national product was expanding so fast that the money supply couldn't keep up. This was thwarting their plans for expansion of the great enterprises that were transforming America at the time.

People think that our time is one of massive change, but there has never been such a complete upheaval of society as occurred from the time of the civil war to the 'twenties. People went from the age of the horse and small villages to the age of the automobile and radio, from farming and cottage industries and Industrial Revolution-style factories to assembly lines and the first multinational conglomerates. War was changed from an activity conducted by small armies of career soldiers and sailors to the modern style of Total War, where entire populations are mobilized against each other. Many European countries sent observers to take notes on the US civil war because it was so different from anything that had ever occurred before- and military planners knew that this was the way wars would occur in the future. The concentration camp, that most atrocious tool of modern tyrants, was invented during the Boer War.

What the industrialist who backed the formation of a central bank wanted was an agency that could increase the money supply at will in order to forestall credit crunches, but that would be independent of the government. In the previous century administrations would oscillate between liberal ones that would cooperate with increasing the money supply and tight-fisted ones that would allow conditions to develop where either precious metal supplies or reserves would be squeezed. Also, in the 19th century there were administrations so corrupt they make even our friend Clinton look saintly. These financiers believed that the executive branch couldn't be trusted with control of the treasury and issuing of currency, which congress had long since lost due to their bungling and inflexibility.

Of course, now the US has a private bungling issuer of currency, and there is a dark side to the Fed's operations as well, but it's easy to loose sight of the forces that led to the creation of central banking.

- Steve

(Wed May 13 1998 20:11 - ID#287312)
Gold shares in a market crash ?
The week of October 27th 1997 when the DJIA fell 7.1% the XAU fell 13%. Can anyone tell me why this same thing won't happen in a major market crash that most of us expect anytime now?

(Wed May 13 1998 20:13 - ID#43460)
Would I buy SSC today?
I think not! With a daily volume over 6.9 million this stock is seeing a great degree of turnover. I think I might buy some more if it drops to 7/8 with very low volume but with anything over 350,000 volume will wait for it to go to 3/4 or even then 5/8. But in the present range I'll keep my lottery tickets! ( IMHO only, I'm an investor, not an advisor! )

(Wed May 13 1998 20:16 - ID#373284)
Suspicious - for one thing there has never been the amount of money in the
world that there is now. While a large majority may bolt and run, if a teeny, tiny fraction of that money goes to the metals, the mining stocks will explode and I mean EXPLODE.

There are trillions out there, you can't even find the total mining sector worth in the sea of paper and electrons. It would be like trying to find a 1963 dime in a 100 acre corn field.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:19 - ID#288295)
gagnrad @ SSC

I think you're right - the chart stinks; looks like it's riding the lower Bollinger band down. Pretty good support at 7/8 however.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:19 - ID#209265)
I don't know Pat Sheridan in Toronto. Should I ge tto know him?

- Steve

BTW- The challenge all Elliott wavers have is figuring out which peaks and troughs are part of the pattern. There really is something to it when you look at the historical data, the peaks and valleys on different time scales really do follow the retracements desccribed by Elliott, and they're sort of fractal, following similar patterns intraday, for example.

What everybody disagrees on is how to tell what part of the cycle you're in while it's happening.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:20 - ID#390415)
Noone has convinced me that gold shares are safe in a widespread drop, and many voices here have agreed that the pull of a crash will pull gold shares with it. Anecdotal evidence is often cited to advance one view or another, such as the example you mention, and the performance of specific companies during and after the 29 crash.

Anyone giving a full and honest picture will have to admit that the link between the price of gold shares and the overall market is not absolutely fixed one way or the other.

Of course, sooner or later gold shares will respond to the price of gold, which marches to the beat of a different drummer, and acts in ways almost unrelated to the market. There are potentialities which would tumble the market and also raise the price of gold, as there are scenarios which cause both to fall or rise together.

I think we can agree that in general, gold funds are contrarian.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:23 - ID#31868)
One thing is for sure, nothing is for sure. Place your bet, bet your place.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:23 - ID#426220)
Suspicious - Gold shares in a market crash?

SOMEWHAT RELATED to your question

Pls see URL, but delete space infront of word "-eagle"

(Wed May 13 1998 20:24 - ID#288295)
Steve in TO

You're right - it's easy to see wave patterns over big time spans, in many charts. It's the little pieces that are the problem. I wonder sometimes, since Waves are ostensibly reflections of emotion ( hope, dispair, etc. ) whether they REALLY apply in manipulated markets. Something to think about.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:27 - ID#210114)
Bill Buckler
Looking forward to the Privateer's comments this week. With POG at or slightly below the 100 day moving average it remains to be seen whether the bull will live or die.

It's a great time to be alive and in the gold market. Hmmmmmmm

(Wed May 13 1998 20:29 - ID#273227)
radio station comments - painting school buses white
Driving home this evening, the radion station was talking about painting school buses white and labeling them UN in Altanta. Does anyone know what they are talking about?

(Wed May 13 1998 20:32 - ID#290118)
Mozel - you read something in there that was not there.
I am not talking about "inventorying of human flesh"!
Rahter, I regard what we have created and what we are capable of creating with our minds and our physical efforts is the sum total of our capital as individuals and as a species. I count among our assets - as a species - the works of Aristotle, Jefferson and the Kitco discussion thread. The authors thereof have put much intellectual effort into those works. I count among our assets all the GOLD and other resources that we have wrenched out of the ground and refined into valuable commodities that are still with us and may be with us for some time yet.
I do NOT include among our assets the raw tonnage of human flesh.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:34 - ID#209265)
NightWriter - Indians peacable?
Are you sure that the peoples of India are really that peacable? Ghandi gave the coutry that reputation in the mindspace of most people- but remember Ghandi was assassinated by a Hindu extremist who was upset that Ghandi was advocating tolerance of Muslims and equal legal rights for them. One or two politicians and hundreds of voters are killed in political violence during every election in India.

India is a place where widows are still burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands, in spite of government efforts to control such atrocities. It's a place where women are sometimes killed by relatives for such things as inadequate dowries or casuing embarassment. Incidentally, the latter also occurs in Pakistan, in spite of gov't efforts to control it.

Most of the people of India are as decent as average people in any other country, but there are enough angry, racist, and volatile people to keep the region in turmoil for a long time.

- Steve

(Wed May 13 1998 20:36 - ID#288295)

Of course, it is possible to hedge your gold mining stock bets with XAU puts, or using paired trades ( long one stock and short another, in the same $ amount ) to make your positions less susceptible to a crash.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:37 - ID#31868)
kuston - if they do I will personally fly down and paint
-American after UN on each and every bus.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:38 - ID#287312)
Tolerant1 / Vronsky / Gold shares
I agree that Gold and Gold shares will preform in a big way after the crash, however I also believe that in a panic market paper will be seen as paper and there will be a time ( days or weeks ) after the panic to buy gold shares at the bargin of a lifetime. Yes, even better than now.
Funds holding even small amounts of gold shares will be dumped and may be the baby thrown out with the bath water. October is my evidence for this reasoning.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:38 - ID#227290)
Steve in TO & Pat Sheridan

Mr. Sheridan is active in the mining business in Toronto. They tell me he's somewhat of a legend.
It's been very worthwhile for me to know him. I don't know if you play the exploration and development stocks, though.
If so, then he's certainly worth knowing.

The Preacher

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:40 - ID#209265)
Silverbaron - Hmm . . .
You're right that Elliott patterns in manipulated markets are an interesting question. Now you're going to have me tossing and turning all night thinking about it! I'll look into the issue.

The other thing that interests me is whether manipulated markets are modulated by the lunar cycle, as free markets clearly are.

- Steve

(Wed May 13 1998 20:41 - ID#390415)
Relationship between gold shares and the overall market, reprise
Looking at the so-called "beta" we see that for example amongst Fidelity's 30 or so sector-targeted funds, the precious metals funds are in a class by themselves, with values in the .2 to .37 range, when other than energy ( .5 ) there is very little below .67. During a major retreat, either the PM players are safe, or nobody survives. It may be like sitting in the "safest" area of the 747. There are perhaps a few scenarios in which it makes a difference. ( The analogy would be more accurate for us goldbugs if during a successful i.e. "non-crash" trip the passengers in that "safe" section get beaten bloody, so that we find ourselves, oddly enough, rooting for the plane we are on to go down. )

Note that Fidelity recently started a "Natural Resources" fund which can actually invest directly in precious metals. Too young to have a beta, perhaps.

Rising Sun
(Wed May 13 1998 20:42 - ID#411331)

Just heard on the radio President Suharto may step down.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:43 - ID#287312)
Government manipulation ?
As far as from now till the crash the Gubment's ain't gona let gold go nowhere much.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:44 - ID#254201)
NotaGoldBug - Good to see you're still around. Send me your e-mail address, I lost it during my conversion to win 95 along with several others. The XAU weekly looks very similiar to to the gold. As much as I would like to see this thing move up if you put my feet to the fire I'd short it here with a stop at 95.

Steve in TO__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:44 - ID#209265)
Preacher - how to contact
Yep - I invest in junior mining stocks. How would I get in touch with Mr. Sheridan? You can e-mail me any info.: or

if you wish.

Thank you,
- Steve

(Wed May 13 1998 20:47 - ID#269191)
Gold Shares and the 1987 crash.
Those who are so positive that gold shares will crash with the rest
of the market should recall that the day of the 1987 crash the shares
rose sharply and only fell the next day after the market started
a massive recovery.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:48 - ID#210235)
Please post your ICQ number, and I'll add it to the list.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 20:52 - ID#384350)
Addendum II to 17:32 post: History of Banks
From Nexus Mag. Aug-Sep 93 ( Vol 2, No 15 ) which was extracted from "War Cycles, Peace Cycles" by Richard K Hoskins. Published by: The Virginia Publishing Company, PO Box 997, Lynchburg VA 24505, USA


The relationship between nations follows almost exactly the relationship followed between individuals. If one nation desires something another nation has and doesn't have the required payment, the money can be borrowed. If interest is required, as it usually is, trouble is just a matter of time.

Babylon had a neighbor to the north--Persia. In the course of trade Babylon graciously made loans which enabled Persia to buy things she ordinarily would not be able to buy. The loans were made at standard interest rates for the time, 33-1/3%, payable in gold. Persia kept her part of the bargain as best she could. She borrowed extensively and was required to repay double the amount in 3 years. After paying back the original loan, Persia, like Seth earlier, found that there was no more money left in circulation and that she still owed Babylon's bankers the interest on the loans.

The king of Persia had other problems resulting from this Babylonian loan. Interest on the loan drained Persia of money. Commerce came to a virtual halt except for barter. There was no gold for taxes so the king could not pay his retainers. King Cyrus of Persia needed gold. Babylon had the gold Persia needed. Persia went to war against her creditor and conquered Babylon in 536 BC--and confiscated Babylon's gold. She also adopted Babylon's usury system.

Usury between nations inevitably leads to war.


( Summarized ) 412 BC, Persia loans 5,000 talents to Sparta who uses it to build warships. Sparta defeats Athens, all the while repaying an unpayable loan to Persia. "The borrower is servant to the lender." When Sparta won the war, she transferred the payments of this horrendous debt to Athens--and Athens instead became the servant of Persia. The Persians certainly felt themselves the real winners. Greeks were killing Greeks--and their 5,000 talent loan had brought home wonderful riches. It was these loans that drained Greece of money and paved the way for unending war.


Philip II of Macedonia died. Philip had conquered Greece and placed her under his rule. His son, Alexander, inherited the throne. Quickly putting down army discontent, he inspected the treasury. It contained the equivalent of a measly $120,000, not even enough to pay his army. In addition, he owed $1.5 million.

Alexander had no choice. He had to have money to pay his army and to pay his debts. Greece was bare of money. Persia was rich. She had the money she had taken from Babylon and from her interest charges to Athens and other Greek cities over the years. The pressing need for money forced Alexander to invade Persia. Leading his matchless Grecian phalanx against the Persians, he won magnificent victories and gained an empire--and $440 million in gold from Darius' banks and temples.


The Grecian empire encompassed most of the known world. A model Greek city was built in each conquered country to demonstrate the superiority of the Greek culture. Each city contained a temple. Each temple was also an interest bank which made loans. Gradually the gold in the form of interest payments returned from the people to the Greek temples scattered all over the empire, and gradually depression also set in.

Greek traders established cities in the southern and northern parts of Italy. In the middle was the young vigorous Roman federation. The Greek traders traded extensively with their Roman neighbors--much of it on credit--lending 10 gold coins under condition that 11 be repaid. The Romans were hard put to pay their ballooning obligations to the Greeks and at the same time maintain their armies which were needed for their incessant wars. Choosing to gain by war what she could not gain by peace, Rome turned on Greece, conquered her, and confiscated her wealth concentrated in the Greek temples and the municipal and the private banks.

No man or nation wishes to be a servant or slave. When it is discovered that the interest loan is a trick and there is no way to repay the debt, both men and nations will turn on their lenders.

A loan must be accompanied with bribes to keep the rulers of the stronger nation friendly. Babylon was active in the internal affairs of her neighbors. Persia was always active in the internal affairs of Greece.

In spite of bribes, in time the "system" itself generates a "desperation level" that bribe money will not fix.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:52 - ID#269191)
One major difference between then and now.
Gold shares were overvalued in 1987 and now they are undervalued.
Few people have them in their portfolios. Therefore in a rush for
liquidity, investors can't sell what they don't own.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:53 - ID#390415)
Peaceful Indians @Steve
Yes, overall, I would say that the mentality in India ( compared to most countries ) is to go with the flow, be at peace inside and accept the external conditions. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary, treatment of women, an abundance of human evil as in all societies, a few angry Sikhs, OK.

While the Japanese were perfecting martial arts, the people of India were perfecting meditation and seeking inner peace. Again, yes, I know, not everyone, but we are talking about a pattern here. Nor do I praise the direction India has taken in the last 2000 years, resulting as it has in widespread poverty and oppression. And I am no proponent of their brand of meditation.

In general, the glorification of the wise one, not the warrior, is what we see coming out of India.

Major humbling caveat: I ain't ever been to India, I just seen it on TV and stuff.

It is certainly wrong at some level to generalize about any class or race.

"Be good and hope for a better life in your next incarnation" is not the kind of cultural ethos that inspires imperialist aggression, generally speaking.

Kindly pardon the rash arrogance of my thoughts, sahib.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:56 - ID#210235)
Please don't obfuscate my post with silly assertions. No way no how did I suggest what FDR did - take all the gold and put it in a bank. Just stated plainly what has been historically proven, that given a choice between metal and notes backed 100% by metal, people would rather carry around the notes.

The problems of the currency conundrum are complicated enough without deliberately twisting it. I am exploring the problems in my recent reading, and will return to it.

(Wed May 13 1998 20:56 - ID#401460)
Suspicious (Gold shares in a market crash ?)

The week of October 27th 1997 when the DJIA fell 7.1% the XAU fell 13%. Can anyone remember at what price ABX, ECO, HM etc. were, and where was the XAU.

Were they above present levels or below - I think much higher.

This time is much different then 87 this is closer to 73 - maybe.


(Wed May 13 1998 20:58 - ID#287312)
You make good points, but still why the greater slide in gold shares during the October dive than the general market?

(Wed May 13 1998 21:00 - ID#432157)
Hope the SHORTS got squeezed on Palladium

(Wed May 13 1998 21:01 - ID#269191)
Gold shares are more volatile both up and down than stocks in general.
See subject.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:01 - ID#401460)

You are talking of 1987, arn't you?

I think the mining shares were high, today the PMs are already depressed.


(Wed May 13 1998 21:02 - ID#339320)

Mr Constitution monger you..........
I have a question that is up your alley.
I have been reading a book about the American's IRS's trickery, called IRS Humbug, Weapons of Enslavement by Frank Kowalik.

His book is well written, but I have noted that a good part of his work stands on a specific interpretation of purjury, and how the IRS uses it to enslave it's citizens.

Specifically, he notes that 28 USC Sec 1746 Unsworn Declarations under penalty of perjury, require one of the two formats:
( 1 ) If excecuted *without* the United States, "I declare...... under penalty of perjury *UNDER THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA* that the foregoing is true and correct."

( 2 ) If excecuted *without* the United States, it's territories, possessions, or commonwealths* that "I declare under the penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct."

Of these two formats, he maintains that these two conditions are NOT in reference to geographical boundaries of the United States of America, but rather a condition of * whenever*, not *wherever* the US Goverment is requesting a document to be signed under penalty of perjury. He maintains that all documents of goverment contract ( such as a 1040 ) are never signed with the format "under the laws of the United States", because they are simple agreements.

Is there something that I am missing? It appears rather straight foreward, ( to his contrary ) but without any case law to substantiate his definition, the majority of his book goes out the window. Any thoughts?
Sorry for being a little off the golden path....but it IS all ultimately intertwined )

(Wed May 13 1998 21:03 - ID#269191)
Central Bank Gold Loans.
Central Bank gold loans will cease when a highly visible default
happens and one of the banks looses a substanial quantity of gold
as a result.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:07 - ID#218220)
Preacher and all
The use of EW in market anaylsis is not an exact science. Unfortunately, hindsight is when the correct wave structure shows itself. From a forecasting standpoint you do have to make some assumptions as to what that count is at any given time. That is why you try to use other supporting data. From my standpoint ( Being a contrarian ) I would look at sentiment indicators such as put to call ratios,or how quickly people turn negative when the market turns aganist them. For example take the precious metals.At the bottom many were looking for the CB's to continue to sell and depress prices further, even though gold had already been beaten down to bargin levels. As fear takes hold most don't notice that the selling dries up.Technical anaylsis is a wonderful tool for helping to find turning points. But when a market is in unchartered territory, sentiment is sometimes the only reliable indicator of a turning point.If as some think that gold has bottomed, and I agree, that is when you look at Elliot wave to confirm that an upleg is begining. The wave pattern in an upmove is 5 waves up with 3 waves correcting that move.The pattern of the waves usually give themselves away, i.e. corrective waves are in 3's and impulse waves are in 5's. Also if gold has bottomed, then from an elliot standpoint, it would be safe to assume that the impulse waves would have extensions. i.e. Wave 1 up 2 down then another wave 1 of a lesser degree, and if ( as some think that gold is ready to take off ) it may make another wave 1, all possibly being extensions of the very first wave. If that happens it tends to put doubt as to whether this is the begining of something or a correction of the downmove. Hence the wall of worry that bull markets love to climb. You could look at gold and say that ( from an elliot perspective ) if it's bullish, that it has had a wave 1 up, 2 down, another wave 1 up and this is wave 2 down. Just keep in mind that if that is the correct count, then it is on the verge of a very strong 3rd wave up. Preacher, the 3rd wave is usually the longest wave.Wave 4, when it corrects wave 3 should not go below the top of wave 1. Everyone take a look at the last few put call #'s on the XAU. Looks bullish to me!

(Wed May 13 1998 21:10 - ID#190411)
suspicious, Ask Donald what Oct 1987 spot/XAU was.
I am curious also. Thanks.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:21 - ID#410215)
.....And darkness covered the face of the deep .....

Mozel -

Your latest posts are increasingly apocalyptic

I began to mentally insert a "Yea Verily" before each

This seems to help

Oh yes

DEJ @ 21:03 -

This will not happen

Huh uh

(Wed May 13 1998 21:25 - ID#432157)
Bandore-TSE Toronto-BAN
Is drilling for Platinum/Palladium in Timmins Ontario.Awaiting results in 2 weeks .If they strike this could be real fun


(Wed May 13 1998 21:25 - ID#287312)
Highrise / Erle
No, my comparison in the 7.1% market fall in the Dow and the 13% fall in the XAU was Oct. 27 97. Not much change in the XAU since then. 87 would not necessarly be a good comparison as conditions in general were much different.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:27 - ID#410215)
..... Nukes .....

India is acting in accord with its own self interest

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 21:31 - ID#384350)
Steve in TO, It's a question of Usury, not of Gold vs. Paper Money
Steve, did you see my 18:31. When usury is involved it doesn't matter whether you use gold or clay tablets.

Simply ask the Indonesians who are getting screwed because they made use of dollar loans, which had lower interest rates than those in local currency.

When their loans were called, they offered Ringits, and much more I'm sure. But the loans were to be repaid in DOLLARS. Dollars that can only be created into existence by the US financial system ( or IMF ) .

The way I see it, the Dollars will be lent by IMF/US Govt ( created by new borrowing ) to Indonesia provided that it sell its industry, natural resources, and central bank to Multinational Corporations and International Banks at firesale prices.

If the New World Order succeeds in making one nation of the world, a debtor nation won't be able to attack its creditor nation as there will only be one nation.

As Hoskins says in my last post, "No man or nation wishes to be a servant or slave. When it is discovered that the interest loan is a Trick and there is no way to repay the debt, both men and nations will turn on their lenders."

If there is to be a NWO, then it will simply be mankind who will turn on its lender.

Your arguments seem to defend the usurious scum who are our masters.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:34 - ID#373284)
On MSNBC the headline - US scrambles to avert nuclear crisis. Good grief.
Are we that weak or just plain stupid. It amazes me that American politicians and our intelligence act this dumb...and people buy into it.

Pathetic. Simply pathetic...

(Wed May 13 1998 21:35 - ID#344259)
Gianni Dioro re Bank Hist
I wonder why the borrowers didn't go dig the gold?? They had what it took if they could conquor other nations. If nothing else, I'm sure you know what a Chinese dragline is. Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 21:40 - ID#373284)
right off the page at MSNBC - what a joke, the Coward Erect ordered nothing, it
is the law as set forth in the treaty.

WASHINGTON, May 13  Hours after India announced a second round of nuclear tests on Wednesday, President Bill Clinton ordered tough sanctions against the nation and said the underground nuclear blasts demand an unambiguous response.

What a joke. Sickening, simply sickening. Bill Clinton, saviour, PHOOEY!

(Wed May 13 1998 21:41 - ID#190411)
Nordic Gold
Back in the old days of private mints, anyone could strike coin, and caveat emptor was the rule. Most mints struck coin and bullion that were at par, and a few didn't. Those that didn't were called to account by the holders of under-value coins. Needless to say, it was quite risky to emit undervalued metal.
Now comes the euphemistically named "NORDIC GOLD". Aside from the slight against the nordic countries, the coin is singularly ugly. Just look at it.- In the upper right of the coin features a flaccid penis and the testacles of an ancient man. ( I guess that this is supposed to signify the Nordic countries, hence, "NO r DICK Gold ) .
Hey, Mr SDRer, maybe you could look up the legislation that enabled this atrocity, and find out if it is legal to privately mint coins of equal face value and metal content.
I promise that I will uphold the standards of the EU as far as alloy content. And, if it's ok with them, I'll even put the boundaries of the formerly independent countries on the coin.
The only problem with my scheme; If the Frenchies get a gander at their old "rooster" 20 FR coins, then they will not want to take my new coin.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:41 - ID#244418)
Only effective remedy to Y2K is war.

Insiders are directly threatened by the year 2000 computer crash.

It confronts them with manifold dangers. Perhaps the only remedy with

sufficient power to deal with them is war. We might speculate therefore

that a war is now in the works--perhaps soon, perhaps after the election,

or in early '99.

What will war do for the Insiders?

The problem they face is economic, military, political, and social

destabilization. A large and expensive war will provide a powerful inflationary impetus to counteract the deflationary force of Y2k.

The military situation is simple: use the high tech weapons and logistics

*before* 2000. They can't be relied on after that.

As for social breakdown, what better way than

war to regiment a population in the runup to chaos?

Lastly the political aspect. War puts the

Insiders in a proactive stance, putting them on the offensive, more than

the defensive. Much better spin control. The unhappy, unwashed ones will

be angry, will want an enemy, and they will be given one.

Logic and history suggest war will precede 1/1/2000. The Insiders

will not shrink from using it, not for one second.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:42 - ID#254201)
SilverBaron - No, I don't use winwave. E waves in general are one of the last things I look at. They are useless for waves 1 and 2, but once you're in wave 3 or c the predictability for the top of 3 and bottom of 4 and the top of 5 is at times astonishing. The problem with using e waves is most people have an idea or desire of where the market is going then they read the ewave to fit the direction they hope the market is going. What they should do is look at it with a blank mind and believe the obvious. Visualize don't rationalize.

(Wed May 13 1998 21:46 - ID#344259)
tolerant1 re 21:34
I guess they are all NERDS. You know, intricately tied up in details and not at all oriented. Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 21:49 - ID#344259)
geoffs re BAN
How about some details on Ban. Quote, website and phone number. Thanx, Charlie

(Wed May 13 1998 21:50 - ID#373284)
chas - you will be judged by a jury of your peers.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:00 - ID#153102)
Yea, verily, though I say usury is worship in the temple of Baal and usury is lying down with the whore of Babylon who enslaves and destroys those who lie with her, noone understands my words. Perhaps it is because I have not said Keynes is a concubine in the temple of Baal and the number which is the number of the inventory of human flesh for Baal is the social security number.

Yea, verily, though I say to the people here that a lien is created by a debt and that all men are created equal and endowed by the Creater with certain inaLIENable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, noone understands my words.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:05 - ID#373284)
yea, and mozely, we ain't dents ya know.
Plenty listen to ya...and better yet...agree with ya, find solace in that.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:09 - ID#228128)
Gold Trends May and June
My analysis agrees with that of APH. We need to clear 302 this week to at least clear the bottom of the upwards trend channel from the Jan lows. The slow stochastic and RSI have stalled in the oversold condition. Most corrections with moves to new highs result in a sharp bounce off of the oversold condition. Anthing else leads to a mutiweek to several month downtrend. I looked at what the POG did in May and June back to 1991. In 11 of 17 years the price at the end of June was lower than at the beginning of May, 5 years were higher and one neutral ( weekly basis ) . Those years in which the POG rose in the May to June period are summarized below.

1995: peaked 3rd week of June, new highs reached in Jan 1996
1994: peaked 3rd week of June, new highs reached in Sept 94
1993: rally continued to 1st week of August, new highs Feb 96
1992: peaked 3rd week of July, new highs May 93
1991: peaked 2nd week of June, new highs May 93

So in most years a spring rally resulted in a long wait for new highs. Bill Buckler commented that multiyear bull markets in gold begin either around the new year or in mid-summer ( in the Northern Latitudes ) . If we follow the downtrend channel from the 1996 peak, we should hit the downtrend channel bottom around July at around the low of 280. I think thats the most likely outcome from here.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:11 - ID#228128)
Oops that should read back to 1981 not 1991

(Wed May 13 1998 22:12 - ID#252150)
Aaaah1 & Aaaah2
Oh I wish I were in the land of deceit
Old times there are really neat
Look away, look away, look away, Disneyland

(Wed May 13 1998 22:12 - ID#286199)
TVX posts positive quarter
and look at the hedges...

(Wed May 13 1998 22:13 - ID#341189)
Erle, the XAU/AU ratio in Oct 87
The ratio was at .321 on Oct2 and at .205 on Oct 30,1987. This while gold was actually up about 17 bucks. ( As many have pointed out the XAU went from 148 to 97 with the oct crash. ) However, the XAU and the XAU/AU ratio had actually peaked in mid Sept.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:15 - ID#153102)
Hie thee to a Bouvier's 1856 dictionary of the law.
Read ye there under the word Contract.
Think long and hard on that.

I think you will have to buy my book for the full, easy to follow explanation to answer your question. I await signs and portents from the infernal attorneys for the temple of Baal for confirmation that I know the law. But your man Kowalnik has it wrong. This much I know for certain.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:18 - ID#247447)
Question for All
Several times on this forum the idea has been advanced that the price of gold can not stay below the cost of production for any great length of time. I am not sure that I understand the logic of this.
For an item that is produced and then consumed I can understand that the price would not remain below the cost of production for long. If it did the production of the item would cease in a free market. As the remaining available items were consumed ( provided any sort of a demand for the item remained ) the value of the remaining items would rise.
However, gold is different. It is produced, but only a small amount is actually consumed. The vast majority of gold that is mined and refined gets locked away in somebody's safe! ( either a central bank's or a Kitcoite's ) If the price of gold falls below the cost of production it may cause a decrease in new supplies becoming available as mines shut down. However, this would not affect the vast amount of gold that has already been mined in the past-this gold would still be available for trade/sell/etc.
If for some reason demand by investors evaporated ( e.g. the press wins and everybody accepts the belief that gold is worthless ) is it not possible for the price of gold to fall deeply below the cost of production and stay there? Production may cease but gold is still available.

Somebody please help me see where I am wrong. I don't see how the production cost of gold provides much of a floor for the price if nobody wants gold!

(Wed May 13 1998 22:19 - ID#411149)
kapex- that is EXACTLY the way I read the wave pattern
and I am WAVING gold right on UP!

Tally Ho

(Wed May 13 1998 22:22 - ID#210235)
Heres the ICQ list. Noticed the Kitco Bar & Grill is open. Enjoy!

Donald - 11928983

Eldorado - 12063388

G-NuTs - 2493116

Hedgehog - 12163846

Hipshot - 9114582

Kitco Bar & Grill - 11998901

Paul - 6118980

Polarbear - 1296586

Prometheus - 11961385

Ravenfire - 12101460

Sam - 11922834

Sharefin - 11918936

Squirrel - 11954224

Steve Blizard - 11925719

Studio.r - 11949731

Tyler Rose - 11940452

Tyro - 12179114

Wombat - 11918911

(Wed May 13 1998 22:25 - ID#252197)
IDT: The current XAU formation ( last 6 months or so )

sure looks a lot like the formation of a similar

pattern in '86 & '87. I like what followed.^XAU&d=mym

( max time )

(Wed May 13 1998 22:26 - ID#153102)
Noah says the women still demand from their admirers gold for adornment.
And the bedouin still demand it of their king for their services.
And the peasant still demands it as money in many places in the East.
And none of these read the newspapers.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:26 - ID#348286)
@Hmmmmm ....... Let's See
OK, India sets of 5 huge nukes, and all involved are disregarding international opinion ( and the financial aid that comes with it ) .
The Cows and the starving peasants are mingling among
the shinney warheads and missiles.
Financial reaction: the Dow continues to post record gains, and
Gold takes an immediate hit after this news release.
Is it just me, or is something terribly wrong here.
Can someone sell me the Golden Gate bridge ???

(Wed May 13 1998 22:29 - ID#252150)
Ti@Mexico needs more imbibers like you, although I've heard that the Mongolian
brew of fermented horse milk ( or is that yak milk ) is quite potent & has a very distict taste.
Re: my post on your India comments--as a card carrying member of the PCPC ( politically correct party of Canada ) I am compelled to lash out at racism, even in it's most innocuous forms. ( smiley )

(Wed May 13 1998 22:39 - ID#339320)

Mr. Mozel,
Could you explain further?

I would buy ANY book written by you.....
do you have one published?

(Wed May 13 1998 22:39 - ID#28593)
Thorny little problem--tackle this please
Protocol to "The Treaty"

HAVE AGREED upon the following provisions, which shall be annexed to this Treaty:

1. Since trade between the German territories subject to the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany and the German territories in which the Basic Law does not apply is part of German internal trade, the application of this Treaty in Germany requires no change in the treatment
currently afforded this trade.

QUESTION: Where ( and what ) are the German territories?

(Wed May 13 1998 22:40 - ID#432157)
To CHAS-details on BAN-Toronto(TSE), 1-800-230-9773.Give a call and find out more.

silver plate
(Wed May 13 1998 22:42 - ID#234253)
India' nooke
The general attitude on this site seems sympathetic to the nuke tests of India.

I would like to remind all you sympathicos that India is the home of Mother Theresa and especially Mahatma Ghandi, the epitome of the non-violent, peaceful coexistance, passive resistance groupies.

However it might be good for gold.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:43 - ID#432157)
CHAS correction s/b

Gianni Dioro__A
(Wed May 13 1998 22:45 - ID#384350)
Chas, Mozel
Last post for the night. Tomorrow, I will continue Hoskin's History lesson with Ancient Rome.

Chas, the world's gold supply today is growing at what? 2% a year? with all the technology improvements as well. How could they be expected to dig up enough gold to pay 10-33% interest? And no, I don't know what a Chinese Dragline is.

Mozel, does inalienable rights mean that the govt cannot subject itself to usury and then tax its citizenry to pay the usurer?

(Wed May 13 1998 22:47 - ID#28593)
Erle--We await your orders! {:-))
The 'legislation' is EU 7/8-1997
1.3.19 Proposal for a Council regulation on denominsations and technical specifications of euro coins.
Commission proposal: OJ C 208, 9.7.1997; COM ( 97 ) 247; Bull, 5-1997, point 1.3.27
Council agreement: Bull, 6-1997, point 1.3.34
European Council conclusions: Bull, 6-1997, point 1.5

One finds the term "Bull" illuminating...{:- ) )

(Wed May 13 1998 22:48 - ID#286199)
Palladium is within 9 bucks of Platinum and closing up fast....
on the ask price at Kitco live.

(Wed May 13 1998 22:51 - ID#222235)
Let's take a drive, there's this really neat bridge that's for sale, but because of it's name, you'll have to pay in real gold . . . .

(Wed May 13 1998 22:53 - ID#432157)


S.E.C. EXEMPTION # 82-4233





Band-Ore Resources Ltd. announces the commencement of a $150,000 exploration program on the Companys 100% Windward Property located in Nordica Township. The exploration program will consist of backhoe stripping, trenching, prospecting, induced polarization surveys and diamond drilling southeast of Timmins.

In early March 1998, the Company announced results from the first stratigraphic drill hole NW98-1 which intersected a 50 metre wide zone containing anomalous to highly anomalous nickel, copper, palladium and platinum values. One 7 metre interval assayed 1 g/t ( Pd + Pt ) and individual one metre assay intervals returned values of up to 0.5% nickel plus copper and 1.3 g/t Pd + Pt. Elevated chromite values were also identified that generally correlated with the higher platinum and palladium values. The PGE values occur in a mafic to ultramafic intrusive complex that appears to be similar to the Stillwater Complex in Montana, some of the PGE orebodies in South Africa and in the Thunder Bay area.

Interpretation of the companys recently completed airborne and ground geophysical survey data indicate that the favourable mafic-ultramafic intrusive covers an area of at least 6 square kilometres. This evaluation also indicates the presence of several other magnetic features thought to be caused by similar intrusives.

Band-Ore is a Canadian exploration company with its main focus being the exploration and development of the Companys strategically located properties in the Timmins, Ontario mining camp.



For further information please contact: Jonathan Armes, Manager, Investor Relations ( 416 ) 365-0811

141 Adelaide Street West, Suite 1703, Toronto, Ontario Canada M5H 3L5 - Tel: ( 416 ) 365-0811 - Fax: ( 416 ) 365-0023

(Wed May 13 1998 22:54 - ID#267344)
Indian Nukes & RJ
Economic sanctions against India are the worst thing the US can do. Instead of embracing India, the US ignorantly tries to punish it. The US never sanctioned France. Could this be considered Racism? I personally do not care any more who developes Nukes. Nukes are already in the hands of the war pigs of the world - perhaps the emergence of India as a Nuclear Nation will act more as a deterance than a threat. We shall see, I guess.

RJ - "Every bone in me body is a spar, and when I spits, I spits tar!"
This saying is part of a rate that must be learned and recited by the plebes at the USNA - are you aware of that? Where does it originate from?
- c

(Wed May 13 1998 22:57 - ID#238422)
If you can prove that NOBODY wants gold, then you are
right. The question is - how can you prove it? By reading
press or watching former Fed guy Angel?

Ask ANYBODY why gold watches are more expensive than
plastic ones, I bet you may then drop you argument...

And what about different art items like pictures of Picasso
( whom I do not understand, to my regret ) ? "Production" of
these pictures was cancelled due to the death of the author,
and what? Nearly nobody seriously wants these pictures,
except for a few people, but prices are going up and up...
because "production" is no more available, there is no art
in his pictures ( my exclusive opinion ) .

(Wed May 13 1998 23:03 - ID#253228)
Polital persuasion survey?
Are you as a posters on this site Communist, Socialist, Modern Liberal, Republican, Libertarian or Anarchist?

(Wed May 13 1998 23:03 - ID#238422)
This is just stupidity of U.S. diplomacy.
U.S. diplomats are among the most stupid
and primitive creatures of the face of the Earth.
Their level of intellegence is much below the
level of average U.S. citizen. Why? I have no idea.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:06 - ID#190411)
Carl. thanks for your good
info as usual.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:06 - ID#153102)
"Mozel, does inalienable rights mean that the govt cannot subject itself
to usury and then tax its citizenry to pay the usurer?"

Inalienable rights means rights the government cannot put a lien upon with a tax debt, rights the government cannot tax, in short, for any purpose or reason whatsoever. They are taxing life with ground-rent. And they are taxing the pursuit of happiness six ways from Sunday.

Oh, when at last it comes clear what it means in the law that the federal government is a bankrupt practicing usury for a receiver who is a usurious lender, the root of the wickedness that copulates in the temple of Baal in the City of Washington is revealed.

Quixotic 1
(Wed May 13 1998 23:06 - ID#48200)
No nation is so sacred as to resist a bite from the "IMF Apple"
gagnrad, your 18:23
I know next to nothing about India and it's plight for self-actualization, except for the boilerplate from my UCONN days. Please don't label me as a "conspiracy nut", but I do know just a little about "our" Intell abilities, and I believe the USG had full and prior knowledge of the events. The "little-man" in the White House will spin conjecture and rhetoric into a media-frenzy, preceding the desired outcome ( e.g. Gulf/Iraqi crisis, Chinese human rights crisis, the Asian financial crisis, ad infinitum ) .
This Goliath-of-a-NWO, has many little Davids from which to duck. I suspect the Euro or Dinar, might be the stone that blackens the eye. As long as rates of return ( ROR ) pull the shadowy stings of government, no nation is so sacred as to resist a bite from the "IMF Apple". Moron, yes, but who pulls his strings?

Gold for the good guysGMJ

(Wed May 13 1998 23:09 - ID#344290)
Starr subpoena for all surveillance video from oval office
Sounds like Starr may be able to size Clinton up, yes he will. And graphically at that if he gets those videos - this can't be - that something this conclusive will end the agony over the ecstasy - Go Starr!
Per Drudge:

(Wed May 13 1998 23:09 - ID#253228)
Question 2
Are you drunk, stoned or more or less in tough wil reality when you post?

(Wed May 13 1998 23:11 - ID#373284)
I belong to no group. And post in the many different facets of my myriad realities.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:12 - ID#431263)
The venerably reliable Walker Market Letter has now flashed its second STOCK MARKET ALERT as of the close of business on May 11, 1998! The market timing model is now 100% in CASH!! The market timing model has dropped from 16 to 12 in only 3 trading days and now rests comfortably BELOW the important sell point of 14! I REPEAT!! THIS IS A STOCK MARKET SELL ALERT!!! AVOID IT AT YOUR OWN FINANCIAL PERIL!! JEFF WALKER HAS SLEDOM BEEN WRONG WITH THIS EXTREMELY ACCURATE STOCK TIMING MODEL!! THE TIME FOR CASH IS NOW!! WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF A MAJOR INTERMEDIATE CORRECTION OR WORSE!! THE FED MAY JUST SURPRISE THIS MARKET AND SOON!!

(Wed May 13 1998 23:18 - ID#238422)
Brother Sam, how can I get into Kitco Bar and Grill?

(Wed May 13 1998 23:20 - ID#432157)
Info on -----WALKER LETTER ???????????-Please

(Wed May 13 1998 23:20 - ID#190411)
Thats's all well and good, however, you, as the Secretary of the Trashery in the subrosa New World Order, I "command" you to find the enabling language for the minting of the EURO: ( especially the higher valuations ) .
Watching the paint dry exercise is not fun, no matter what the Cuervo dude says.
I can find many outfits that will supply the tools and alloy to make these coins of the benighted Europeans.
I just want to know whether they would appreciate my efforts.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:20 - ID#373284)
oris - in order to get in
you will certainly have to take off those ten pound palladium cuff-links.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:21 - ID#253228)
I meant my political ( spelled correctly this time ) inquiry as to query what you believe in general terms. Obviously there is a wide disparity between a communist and an anarchist. There is ambivilence inbetween, and I was just curious as to what most people on this site feel themselves to be.

Gusto Oro
(Wed May 13 1998 23:22 - ID#377235)
Toleren1 21:34
I agree T-1. They think we're boneheads like them. --AG

(Wed May 13 1998 23:22 - ID#238422)
Jeil, question for you...
What is your problem, man???

(Wed May 13 1998 23:27 - ID#43460)
Silverbaron re SSC
Sorry for the late reply. I was out doing family things. %^ ) You have any guess how long it will be before SSC hits and sticks to 7/8? My guess is after the June contracts expire. IMHO

The late summer and early fall are a cypher to me. If the First Weenie really does embargo Imdia what are all the poor and working class Indians going to do for marriage and festival jewelry? It remains to be seen what the few hudred million Indians who will suddenly be too poor to buy embargoed gold will do to the market. All the smugglers will have a field day! From what I've read they've been smuggling into India for 8,000 years so nothing the First Weenie can do will stop it. ( Hmmm, I wonder if calling the prezz names in time of national embarresment is considered treason? ) IMHO

( Disclaimer: my ponderings and discussion about factors affecting my own investment situation doesn't contitute "advice" for anyone else. And, for any lurking quislings out there, I really love Big Bubba. )

(Wed May 13 1998 23:30 - ID#253228)
Oris, Do you have hours to listen?
I have the general problems that come from poor parenting, the rule rather than the exception, and those that come from living in a slave socitey that bring about all the problems we all see as a degeneration of the soicity in which we live. Otherwise, I pass as normal, earning a greater than average living, living in a beautiful old house, and spending my money on those toys that bring me passing pleasure. Want to discuss your malladies?

Also, I am stressed by my attempts to make a fortune with my mind.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:31 - ID#43460)
I love Big Bubba
Bart, that coined phrase is too good to copyright! I think it would make really neat tee shirts, just think of another phrase to go with it!

(Wed May 13 1998 23:34 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Chart
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Watched ChartWatch on channel 22 ( LA )
Frank Barbera presented a chart of Gold in terms of
the Indonesian Rupiah. His chart showed a gain of
248% in the past eight months. He also stated that Gold
was the ULTIMATE store of Value/Money and an
important safe haven in difficult times ( currency devaluations ) .

Glad to see this on mainstream TV at a time when Gold
is doing so poorly in term of the US Dollar.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:36 - ID#256454)
Imagine that the Russian have delayed shipments again! Now if
a mere two days ago a investor bought palladium at 311.00 and
sold this morning he would have made 50 x 88.00= PROFIT!
Palladium will reach above 600.00 per ounce! Believe it!

(Wed May 13 1998 23:38 - ID#28593)
My friend, there are 440,467 documents and counting...
They have switched to a new dB, so the count rises daily.
There are 13,169 that have been 'culled', in four
languages. It taketh time and an iron stomach {:- ( (

(Wed May 13 1998 23:44 - ID#238422)
The last sentence in your last post is quite understandable.
I was afraid you've been serious about Communists....

(Wed May 13 1998 23:45 - ID#431263)
Jeff Walker Stock Letter website:

(Wed May 13 1998 23:46 - ID#253228)
Don't know if any of you caught the little squibb on Discovery channel on waves tonight. Interesting presentation. One thing is that waves are not movement of water, but rather movement of energy though water. The rise you see as a wave is not water moving forward, but up, and the movement down is not water moving forward, but down.

Waves that crash reach such a peak that the energy is cannot longer hold up the water and you see the typical crashing whitecap.

Think of the 1987 stock market crash. The reason we had a crash rather than a correction was that the market moved more that 40% above the surface level of the water, so to speak ( 40% above its average ) . It is now 30% above its average and under normal circumstances would correct. My calculation show that it will not crash but 36% correct. You cannot ride a wave indefinitley.

There are rules of nature. Same to be said for gold and gold shares. Gold is under water. It will go further under water until it touches the sand this time. Those of us who wait until this fall will be able to make fortunes by simply buying then, at the low in September. Those of us who are long now miss the opportunity of a lifetime. Sure you will get your money back and may make a good gain in the long run. You will not buy Homestake at under $1 and sell out at above $50. Enough said.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:46 - ID#190411)
SDRer, after your due diligence,
I must assume that the minting of the EURO is open to anyone that will guarantee the alloy content is consistent with the face value. I as a Can-Do American am ordering the neccesary machine tools and alloys to help our EUROpean bretheren to launch their new currency.

(Wed May 13 1998 23:56 - ID#335190)
Water=Gold @ Mother Earth (Water, the gift of life, from Mother Earth.)
End irrigation subsidies and reward conservation, CU study advises..David Pimentel, professor of ecology,

"Undercharging for irrigation water in the U.S. and other nations hides the true cost of food and encourages the planting of low-value crops," said David Pimentel, professor of ecology in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences and leader of the 10-researcher team that performed the water-resource analysis. "If farmers paid the full cost of water, they would manage irrigation water more efficiently. We should reward water conservation, not water use."

by: David Pimentel, Professor of Agricultural Sciences, Cornell University
...........................U.S. FOOD SUPPLY

With slightly more than 269 million people in the U.S., most Americans enjoy a relatively high standard of living and ample food. The average yearly income per family is about $37,000 compared to only about $4000 per family in developing countries ( PRB, 1995 ) . On average, Americans spend 15% of their income on food, compared to about 30% in Europe ( M. Giampietro, National Institute of Nutrition, Rome, Italy, personal communication, 1995 ) , and 50% to 60% for people in developing countries ( I.N. Oka, Bogor Food Research Institute, Bogor, Indonesia, personal communication, 1995 ) .
...............................Water Resources

Pumping and delivering water for irrigation costs 2 to 5 times more per ha than rainfed crop production both in terms of dollars and energy expended in production ( Pimentel et al., 1996a ) . Between $1000 and $2000 are required to irrigate a hectare depending on the water source and the crop produced. The cost of irrigation water for most western agriculture, about $4.4 billion per year, is subsidized by taxpayers ( Pimentel et al., 1996a ) .

Because farmers only pay about 10% of the water costs, it is easy to waste water. For example, flood irrigation which uses large amounts of water frequently is applied on low value crops like alfalfa because irrigation water is cheap for the farmer ( Pimentel et al., 1996a ) . If farmers had to pay the full cost of water, many changes would take place in western agricultural production ( Postel, 1992 ) .

..............................SYSTEMS CRASH

THERE IS NOW GOOD SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that our life-support systems are dis-integrating under the impacts of our economic system. What follows are three different sourcesusing three different methods and data setsthat suggest massive human die-off will follow worldwide systems crash sometime around the years 2020 to 2030.

Meadows, et al. project a "business as usual" scenario that see our major systems crashing around year 2030. Remember, these are worldwide systemsthere is no place to hide.

.....................Are we Overpopulated?

Strictly speaking the Catholic Church has no "official position" regarding "overpopulation." In fact, according to the Catechism, "it is legitimate for it ( the state ) to intervene to orient the demography of the population."

In spite of some inconveniences, we prefer to live close to lots of people. The reason is clear. Human beings do not just make problems for each other, but much more important we create opportunities.

Folks keep leaving places like Eastern Washington and South Dakota to come here to the Seattle area. They sacrifice the wide open spaces for the opportunities made possible by the presence of lots of people: jobs, libraries, schools, hospitals, shopping malls, not to mention theaters, restaurants, sports, etc. ( of course you can find all these things in S.D. and E. Wash, but on a smaller scale and only where people concentrate ) .

(Wed May 13 1998 23:59 - ID#43460)
Indians are confident they will maintain their economy in the face of present events.
This URL has some interesting discussion of the effect of nonresident Indians on the present economic situation:

This contains a cartoon showing an American ( Bubba? ) cop and an unknown European harrassing an Indian.