Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sun May 24 1998 00:00 - ID#342376)
"The stupendous moneymaking machine that is RANDGOLD" great line.

(Sun May 24 1998 00:01 - ID#287186)
FOR ANSWER - See my posts on K2 {gold & silver bar & coin discussion}

(Sun May 24 1998 00:12 - ID#190411)
Ahh; to be a wit and a wise guy, such as you.

(Sun May 24 1998 00:22 - ID#153102)
Wise guy. Too many nostalgic moments associated with that phrase. Cold barns. Fires in 45 Gal drums. Whispered oaths. You're taking me back to those old days.

dung beetle
(Sun May 24 1998 00:26 - ID#272234)
Any comments on this one?

(Sun May 24 1998 00:57 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious metals Charts
5 Years, 120 day, 30 day and hourly charts at:
Click on Gold Sectors

(Sun May 24 1998 00:58 - ID#190411)
@ dung beetle
Superb handle- that's my term of affection to my children.
I have some beetles in my collection, also some beatles. The beatles stink after a while, so, I mainly admire the six-leggers.
That goldbug that you posted is stunning.
I don't miss Ziva all that much, for that was the time I started lurking also.
She is a woman of her word though: When she said she would stop posting, she did.--God Bless Ziva.
Whad'dy know about our commodity, gold?

(Sun May 24 1998 01:02 - ID#252127)

Ziva, or someone using her handle just posted on K2

(Sun May 24 1998 01:06 - ID#280222)
MOZEL: What were the names of those Confederates? Where did they settle? How did they die? Are their descendants still there? What are the requiems written on their tombstones?

(Sun May 24 1998 01:06 - ID#190411)
Thanks for your efforts to educate us. I will look this over after some sleep.
Bon voyage.
P.S. Are you going to be incommunicado during the interesting period shown by all of your RED lights?

(Sun May 24 1998 01:13 - ID#190411)
RJ got all bent about K2 today, and I believe Preacher pointed out hepcat at same.
I looked, and it wasn't too keen. If Ziva was around she would be here.

Gold is still a commodity for a while, yet. Good Night to y'all.

(Sun May 24 1998 01:17 - ID#255151)
dung beetle

Re Philippine banks being Y2K ready-- Sounds too easy. No way would I believe that without more information. Cool pic yesterday of the Gold dung beetle, BTW. Hey, you could start a web site called the Gold-Beetle!

(Sun May 24 1998 01:17 - ID#342376)
Kitco 2
It really is bizarre. Kitco 2 is this strange parallel universe on the other side of cyberspace.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 01:21 - ID#24135)
Il Trovetore at sunrise
For JTF ..
Hold it .. Im not really long. Im over 75% cash and Im
contemplating puts on the $XAU on a break of 80.5.

For Erle ..
Vronsky also tipped Deeps and Harmony .. 2 out of 3
aint bad.
About his background ...
Many stories .. was with Mad Mike in Katanga .. slave
running on the Red Sea .. ran a whorehouse in Santiago..
. I favour the Santiago story.

For Mozel
How many wiseguys can be contained on one URL ??

Also I figured it out .. RJ is only right 69.2 %
of the time .. but I only do what he says when he is
WRONG so what difference does it make.

For RT
You are NOT stupid .. But you type so badly
it makes people think you are .. so what
difference does it make.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 01:24 - ID#24135)
What about diet
For Oris ..
Just never give up .. I believe in diet.
cabbage .. brocolli .. garlic .. that kind of

(Sun May 24 1998 01:26 - ID#57232)
The Price of Washington's Bosnia Policy, by Y Bodansky
for mozel and intrigue experts ( please -- if you are naturally paranoic -- don't read this! ) :

I have read this fellow several times now -- his prose is convoluted -- but plausible. I think he is legit -- but I am no George Smiley.

What worries me is the following: Just how far would WJC go to avoid an embarrassing confrontation between moslem extremists in Bosnia, and American forces that are now getting bogged down? And just why has he recently annouced the US stockpiling of anti-biological warfare meds?

Here is what I have surmised: First, has WJC offered up Egypt to the Islamic extremists in return for no interference in Bosnia? According to this article, Mobarak believes this, and this is part of the reason why he is making overtures to the Sudan, and to Iran. I find this appalling that we might even think about selling an ally like Egypt down the river, even if it has been forced into secret agreements with Syria. Hoever, it does make sense in a perverse sort of way that US interests might want to 'sacrifice' Egypt as that would also weaken the Arab forces which are now gathering around Israel. However, if this forces the Mubarak government ( along with Saudi Arabia ) into the lap of Iran, it would appear to me as rather inept, in addition to being morally wrong.

There is another matter even more disturbing in all of this. WJC is smart enough to know that only a genuine national emergency will deflect public interest away from him and the economy. Hence -- why not accelerate things a bit -- create unrest in the Middle East, or even encourage Islamic terrorism within US borders? He could silence all of his detractors during his declaration of a National Emergency. With his skills in foreign affairs, he is more likely to bungle whatever scheme he may be cooking up, to the detriment of the US, and world peace.

I know I am speaking to the choir here at Kitco, because conspiracy is a common topic on this site. I do not want to cause undue commotion with this -- but on the other hand, I sincerely hope that we have some lurking career members of our government who will see this. Hopefully the url I have found will be read by intelligence circles ( probably has by some ) , and a potential disaster worse than the ChinaSatelliteMisslegate fiasco avoided.

I did get a kick about what The Economist said about WJC visiting China in the next few weeks -- it gives him another chance to mess things up.

(Sun May 24 1998 01:31 - ID#28594)
Research--How they sell the SIZZLE not the steak...
.....................DEM/AU.........AU/DEM........ DEM/USD...USD/DEM

The USDs reflection varies in a most judicious manner; brightly shinning to dim the DEM, barely shining on would hardly know it was there. How clever the dollar is...

If all goes well, I may be able to finish this next week. It is becoming most intriguing...and revealing..

To those to whom I owe mail acknowledgments: part of the problem was resolved this afternoon--but now the computers will be down for a bit, apologies. Have a great weekend

(Sun May 24 1998 01:31 - ID#287186)
K2 just got
The post reads as follows:

Date: Sat May 23 1998 23:14

Murrstein ( ) ID#348141:

I know you guys are making fun of me.

If it doesn't stop soon, Swamp Boy, Griz, and Observer,

you'll be looking at lawsuits. One for each of you.


(Sun May 24 1998 01:33 - ID#287186)
That was supposed to read.
K2 just got "Murred" - goes to prove K2 is as loonie as K1.
Go check out Grizz's rebuttal.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 01:34 - ID#24135)
Crazy Stuff
For Squirrel
Murrstein's trying to get a job on
LA Law

(Sun May 24 1998 01:35 - ID#57232)
Long gold, long markets (short term)
John Disney: Thanks. I am 50% cash, 33% gold stocks ( short term ) , rest silver stocks, oil and defense. Hopefully I can scrape up some funny money for XAU puts, if gold tanks. I bought a few too many ABX Jan 99 calls.

Strangely enough, I think APH is right about the SP500 being ready to take off. Its nearing the end of the month, and all of that baby boomer money has to go somewhere, and so does all of that money fleeing Japan and Russia.

dung beetle
(Sun May 24 1998 01:35 - ID#272234)
ERLE-Here's the PM situation
From my perspective. ( for long term holders who do not wish to rely on the SS ) ...Gold under US$400 is a deal; under $300 is a steal. Silver under $6 is a deal; under $5 is a steal. Please hyperlink url to see my unique perspective on this worldly matter. :^ )

(Sun May 24 1998 01:37 - ID#190411)
@ Disney
Surely, 2/3 is good, but, Where does he get his expertise?

If you are really from Virginia you wouldn't "favour" the Santigo brothel keeper, Mr. Vronsky.

(Sun May 24 1998 01:42 - ID#57232)
Please clarify what you are up to when you have a chance!
SDRer: I think what you have found is a short term correlation between the fluctuations of the price of gold, and certain currency fluctuations -- linking gold positively to certain currencies -- am I right? I would certainly be interested in knowing which correlation was positive and which was negative. I can guess.

(Sun May 24 1998 01:44 - ID#190411)
dung beetle's last link says it all

(Sun May 24 1998 01:47 - ID#57232)
G'Nite all!
Dung Beetle: For such a little guy, you sure do cast a big shadow over the earth!

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 01:49 - ID#24135)
You Got Sharp Eyes ..
Erle ..
Trust me .. but I carry an Aussie passport .. I try to lose
as much of that "good ole boy" accent as I can .. and its
starting to take effect... and yes I do favour the UK spelling ..
but I still say LOO-ten-nent.

For RT ..
Just kidding ..
trying to draw a little fire..

(Sun May 24 1998 01:56 - ID#287186)
Does the dung beetle survive this?

(Sun May 24 1998 01:57 - ID#31868)
Nothing has changed since the dawn of pre-this......................................................
With the exception being ( which is rhetorical, the re-entitled "Gullible's Travel's."

dung beetle
(Sun May 24 1998 02:04 - ID#272234)
JTF...That was a visual metaphor... It meant that
In the future GOLD BUGS WILL RULE!

(Sun May 24 1998 02:09 - ID#401460)
Hackers before Yr2k

We don't have to wait for Yr2k, hackers can do a pretty good job right now.


(Sun May 24 1998 02:12 - ID#287186)
Klinton does not play favorites - he bares our chest to all.

dung beetle
(Sun May 24 1998 02:14 - ID#272234)
Squirrel... Through his keen perception the Dung Beetle had
already vacated that scene. ( Similar to leaving the city before the other BIG ONE comes down ) Agree?

(Sun May 24 1998 02:27 - ID#255284)
It's a battle ground out there
I have just received this email from an old friend who has spent most of his adult life in SE Asia, he is currently living in Laos, and begins talking about his Chinese Indonesion wife:

" her parents and sister flew out to Singapore last Tuesday and are
waiting to see what will happen. With Habibie in charge, it looks like more
of the same - crony capitalism with some reform rhetoric to keep the masses
quiet - I'll give him 6 months maximum. Her other sister and brother stayed
put to protect their property - holed up in their houses, taking turns at
guard duty. It looks like things will quieten down, at least for the near
future, though the impact on the economy of the mass destruction and, more
importantly, the flight of Chinese-Indonesian capital and skills, has yet to
be assessed.

Here there is no mention of any disturbance in Indonesia in the local media.
We have a satellite dish so get BBC/CNN/Australia TV news which has kept us
well informed of events over the past 2 weeks. The Party/Govt. here finds it
a bit too threatening - may put ideas in peoples heads.

Thought y'all may be interested

(Sun May 24 1998 02:31 - ID#286234)
It's Aikido Beetle and his sidekick Dung!
:- )

dung beetle
(Sun May 24 1998 02:56 - ID#272234)
GOSH...If things get any slower around here...
"I might have to go out and dig up some of my MAPES to play with" said the dung beetle with that peculiar s***-eating grin of his.

(Sun May 24 1998 03:06 - ID#347235)
@ John Disney
Thank you very much for your vote of confidence of mah intelektual capabilities it warms my heart to know that you think AH aint Dum.

You can call them LOOtenant if you want I call em pi** ants. Toujours
Pret, Garry Owen Pip Pip and all that.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 03:38 - ID#24135)
If it gets too dull..
dung beetle
you can always go to K2, throw rocks at
swamp boy, and run.

(Sun May 24 1998 03:46 - ID#273227)
a.j. 21:53
a.j. "The first of the two shocks recorded by the seismograph in Norman ( O.U. ) had to have been from the shaped charges which had been placed for the specific purpose of blowing the pillars which supported the header spoken of above. The second was the shock from the comparatively mild explosion of the truck bomb."

Finally, I found someone else who knows about this. A.J. - I was surfing online that night. I came across a posting with a link to the Norman online seismograph. There is was! Clear as day - 2 explosions took place within seconds of each other. The first was spikelike and the second was more bowl shaped. I didn't save the page that night - the next morning it was gone. The day before and the day after were online, but the day of the bombing was missing. That morning I understood the depths Clinton would go to to preserve himself. I haven't heard of of the 2 explosions again until I read your post tonight. I saw the chart - there were 2 explosions in OKC that morning!

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 03:47 - ID#24135)
Any ole time
You all is a gold ole boy ..

How's that Erle..??

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 03:51 - ID#24135)
To all ..
Markinor poll says ANC support has fallen
from 62 % in the 1994 elections to
54 % at present. Top Communist .. a dork
named Jeremy Cronin blasts the ANC and
says it's "lost its way".

(Sun May 24 1998 04:07 - ID#233199)
@ John Disney
Could you please refresh my memory about who is doing what for whom as far as Gold reclamations and/or biological concentrations of gold from
slag ( is that the word for gold tailings too? )

I remember hearing something but I forget who's doing what. If the bilogical concentration processing is not going on is someone planning on starting that.


(Sun May 24 1998 04:28 - ID#255284)
serendipity? Why! She's a friend of mine.
I was just about to reply to you via ICQ when my dangblasted puter crashed again on ICQ, the devil's software. Thanks for the Heinlen reminder, I read it years ago, funny thing, this week I was in the Supermarket doing a mental survival inventory, saw condensed milk and turned it down ( largely because I have lost the enzyme lactase in common with most of the world's adults besides the Western Civilisation's ) , Shall now add it to my list of essentials for those whom I shall wish to assist, being all neonates..

I shall squirrel all Heinlen's supplies.


Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 04:43 - ID#384350)
I just got a promotional letter in the post last night.

It appears renowned economist, Dr Kurt Richebcher, has put out a special report: Three Sure-fire Ways to Profit from the Japanese Selling of US Treasury Bonds.

The promo letter talks about the $12.1 Billion sale of short-term Treasuries by an anonymous seller on Apr 13th, believed to be the Japanese.

This was the largest single block of US Treasuries ever sold.

The letter talks of the reversal of trends from Asian buying of Treasuries to selling, "And it's going to take the US dollar on a one-way trip to the cellar."

It links the foreign buying of Treasuries to both the strong USD and Wall St bull market. ( A chart shows a 97% correlation between foreign holdings of US Treasuries and the S&P 500. "More than a coincidence?" )

"It happened in Mexico. It happened in Southeast Asia. And it will happen here. The dollar's fall will cause trillions of dollars of wealth to vanish overnight."

It says there are hidden links between Asian & US economies, and that as the dollar falls, so will European exports.

The Report comes with a subscription to "The Richebcher Letter", which is one of the most expensive newsletters I know of.

The Richebcher Letter
105 W. Monument St
Baltimore, MD 21201, USA
tel: +1 ( 410 ) 223-2678

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 04:55 - ID#24135)
Well ...
I would if I could ..
as far as I know Bernatz leads the
world in bacteriological extraction..
but he's tied up in the new Pope job
and it's hard to get an audience.

(Sun May 24 1998 04:57 - ID#233199)
@ John Disney
Isn't one of the mines there taking on reclamation for other mines?

(Sun May 24 1998 04:58 - ID#230376)
A warning......

don't get auracious started on economist jokes. It can be habit forming and contagious...Good Day from the chilly Midwest !

(Sun May 24 1998 05:11 - ID#240288)
Gianni Dioro_A

Did he give a time frame? That scenario would catch most Americans by surprise and shock the Hell out of them. Not us Kitcoites, however. Won't be a surprise at all.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 05:53 - ID#24135)
The guys that process surface dumps or
slimes are Crown ( new one ) Ergo ( to be
absorbed into anglo at least for time
being ) and east daggafontein. I think
they will all be combined some day .
Bernatz is planning a takeover .. they
will perhaps be called Papal Processing.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 06:18 - ID#384350)
Auric, Richebcher
I didn't receive the special report, just a promo letter with a brief summary, saying I could get the report by renewing my subscription.

Richebcher usually doesn't give specific time frames, but I would guess that the events are unfolding now, and could strike any time, but likely later this year.

With Asia turning to net sellers of US Treasuries coupled with the US likely to run a close to $200 billion trade deficit, I can't see dollar strength carrying on for too much longer, albeit maybe preceded by some flight to safety ( if we haven't seen the last of it ) .

China was encouraged ( coerced ) to buy, and did buy Treasuries ( probably against a possibility of someday joining the WTO ) , but their economy isn't as bright as it once was, and future purchases may be limited. They also seem to want to build up a gold position.

The Bank of England was buying US Treasuries as well, taking the place of the Japanese. I wonder how closely tied England is to the US. They may well drown together.

I haven't yet received the May issue of his letter, and the April one I unfortunately left on a plane. In it he said about the markets, "If you're not confused, then you don't understand."

In Feb issue, he said that Bank lending to Asia in recent years ballooned to $385 billion, mostly to banks and corporations, but what is not recognized is the HUGE exposure to counterparty risks from derivative positions.

He said that the possibility of major losses to the world banking system would lead to more cautious lending in the future, which may well be enough to drag other heavily debt-dependent emerging countries, like Brazil and Russia, into financial trouble.

(Sun May 24 1998 06:19 - ID#255284)
too late, eddie. Here de jokes (this could be the last time, I don't know)

Weeeelllll , as its duck shooting season downunder ( its always duck-shoving season ) and Eddie the Ersel made such a kind invitation, I thought Id dig into my bag of economist jokes ( a non-sequitor in any event ) and see what I could dig up ==== from the economists' crypt === we stack them on top of each other downunder, like the damnable skyscrapers they build.......




1. Any person with a valid Washington DC hunting license or a Federal Income Tax Return may harvest government economists.
2. Taking of economists with traps or deadfalls is permitted. The use of currency as bait is prohibited.
3. Killing of economists with a vehicle is prohibited. If one is accidentally struck, remove the dead economist to side of the road and proceed to the nearest car wash.
4. It is unlawful to chase, herd, or harvest economists from limousines, Mercedes Benz's, the Metro, or Porsches.
5. It shall be unlawful to shout "research contract" or "I need a policy consultant" for the purpose of trapping economists.
6. It shall be unlawful to hunt economists within 100 feet of government buildings.
7. It shall be unlawful to use decision memos, draft legislation, conference reports, or RFP's to attract economists.
8. It shall be unlawful to hunt economists within 200 feet of Senate or House hearing rooms, libraries, whorehouses, massage parlors, special interest group offices, bars, or strip joints.
9. If an economist is elected to government office, it shall be a felony to hunt, trap, or possess it. It will also be a shame.
10. Stuffed or mounted economists must have a DC Health Department inspection certificate for rabies and vermin.
11. It shall be illegal for a hunter to disguise as a reporter, drug dealer, pimp, female congressional aid, sheep, legislator, policy maker, bookie, lobbyist, or tax accountant for the purpose of hunting economists.


What's the difference between mathematics and economics?

Mathematics is incomprehensible; economics just doesn't make any sense.


Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, a practical economist, and an old drunk are walking down the street together when they simultaneously spot a hundred dollar bill.
Who gets it?

The old drunk, of course, the other three are mythological creatures.


And my current ( pun ) favourite, owing to orklands power/paua crisis

Given 1000 economists, there will be 10 theoretical economists with different theories on how to change the light bulb and 990 empirical economists laboring to determine which theory is the *correct* one, and everyone will still be in the dark.

(Sun May 24 1998 06:26 - ID#240288)
National Security Sellout

Good summary here. Scumbag is too nice a word for Clinton.

(Sun May 24 1998 06:40 - ID#255284)
I mean no offence

That's what I like about Clinton, he's *your* scumbag

"And ya wonder why merkans are mocked around the world? Of course, Clitone wasn't the start of it, more like just "the end" of it.

"No, child. Merka was never a world paua, she just watched a lot of television."

Exerpted from

"A short history of Merkan Barbarism --- Noone called it civilised"

by Auracious Australopissedasacuss, his unusual chanelling biography of Ira Hayes...Published 29/2/00

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 06:41 - ID#384350)
another joke
A physicist, a chemist, and an economist are stuck on a desert isle. They have a crate of beans but nothing to open the cans with.

They all thought of a way to open the cans.

The physicist said, "Maybe one of us can climb up that tree and throw rocks down onto the cans. We just might be able to crush them open."

The chemist said, "Hey, I think I can make up a solution from the sap of this tree, and it might just dissolve the metal."

The economist interjected, "Wait a minute. We are getting ahead of ourselves. Let's think. Okay, Let's suppose we had a can-opener....."

(Sun May 24 1998 06:52 - ID#285121)
Auric: Your correct !
To call Clinton a scumbag was an insult to condoms world wide.

(Sun May 24 1998 06:58 - ID#255284)
Diversions _ R _ Us --- hey youse guys, that's a slam at merkan televisual opiates, hollywood sux,

Excellent! here's ANOTHER IQ Test

If an economist and an IRS agent were both drowning and you could only save one of them, would you go to lunch or read the paper?

(Sun May 24 1998 07:06 - ID#233199)
@John Disney (...if you are still there...)

Is the Durban Deeps business meeting this comming week?

...and thanks again

(Sun May 24 1998 07:48 - ID#377211)
Here is ( again ) a chart I use a lot to move in and out of mutual funds ( for my retirement accounts ) ... You might have to save that chart from this link and "fit it to view" for your screen... Anyways...
This chart shows":
1. a rouding top
2. a decisive drop below the 50d MVA
3. a decisive drop of the Relative Strength of this index as compared to the SP500
4. rallies from mid-April on have failed.
IMHO, the US market trend looks down/basing from here..
Look at this graph carefully... Retrospectively, the October crash and the change of trend in Jan 98 were easily seen... better than on DOW and SP500, IMHO... This IBD Mutual Fund Index, right now, shows this rounding top better than most major indexes.
When you add:
1. a dropping Advance/Decline ratio and
2. a very low cash mutual fund level in March 98 ( 4.8% ) ...
We probably should conclude that professionals are steadily exiting the US market. Accordingly, as posted a weeks ago ( same chart ) , I am 75% cash now, regarding retirement money... It could be a mistake... We will see.

John Disney__A
(Sun May 24 1998 08:06 - ID#24135)
Lunch time .. eating soup
for swp1
god that soup is good .. add a bit of
cumin seed and some dry mustard ..
and I think Deeps must have a shareholders
meeting very soon to okay preferred stock
conversion ( I hope ) and presumably confirm
that loan to rangy to be paid in stock plus
other things.

(Sun May 24 1998 08:19 - ID#233199)
@John Disney: cumin seed and some dry mustard ..

..............two of my favourites

Think Long & Hard On This
(Sun May 24 1998 09:05 - ID#359307)
Will they give up without a fight?
Let us contemplate this: "They will leave no stone unturned to stop the
markets failing".
Have "They" run out of dry powder yet? Think how many times gold looked
like it was going to break out of its downtrend line, as recorded by
Bill Buckler, only to fall back again. Maybe the stocks will be allowed
to fall a bit, to give people the satisfaction of seeing the back of
an "expected" correction, and gold allowed to rise a bit, before being
trashed yet again.
Have they more tricks up their sleeves? That is something upon which
we should all think long and hard.

Suppose any of the following were to happen? This is all hypothetical,
of course, just for discussion purposes you understand, not that I am
suggesting that anything like this would happen in real life...
Standard disclaimer goes here

Plunder government controlled funds ( Donald, Sat 18:39 ) ( Japan has
mulled something similar for some time )
Replace all the gold in Fort Knox with stock certificates
Pull strings to get friendly countries to buy unwanted Treasuries
( Mr Blair? ) and reduce their own Govt. interest rates.
More company share buybacks
More mergers
Intervention in foreign stock markets, since they are watched for their
trends before the US markets open.
Proposals for doing business on the Internet from unexpected sources
( internet related companies' stock prices have been doing very well,
and non-internet companies could benefit from an "internet injection" )
"Wonder drug" announcements from biotech companies, maybe too soon,
with disastrous consequences.
Relaxation of FDA rules.
Sell all the strategic reserves of metals and fuel, citing the end of
the cold war. Fuel has been placed on the backburner, but how long
will that last?
Change the rules for calculating the stock indices
Mass spectroscopy discovers Nazi gold and calcium from Jews' teeth in
every Eagle and Maple Leaf.
Warren Buffett thrown in jail for "tax irregularities", his silver
seized and dumped on the market.
Destabilise third world countries that threaten to put prices of imported
goods up, or increase their consumption of precious metals and/or
Prop up countries that love fiat currencies and Treasuries
New and easier ways for people to buy stocks, get credit.
Stop ADRs in foreign stocks that tend to 'gasp' fall in price
Special credit arrangements *specifically* for buying equities
Beyond 401k... New types of investment vehicles with a stronger bias to stocks
Tax changes... punitive if you sell, must hold stock for minimum time
period ( unless you are a trader ) . Institute long notice for withdrawal
for mutual funds.
Changes in employment laws to favour companies and their bottom lines.
Reduction in the amount of cash allowed to be withdrawn and restriction of cash payments.
Prohibition of more than a certain number of people in bank lobbies
Reduction in the threshold for reportable large transactions
Advance notice required to withdraw more than a certain amount from the
One-way restrictions on international currency transfer
Restrictions on the sale of insider stock
Crippling of the antitrust law
"Irregularities" discovered in poor performers in the stock indices,
leading to their de-listing.
Stories prominent in the media revolving around how many gold and silver
traders and investors have sustained heavy losses, even become
insolvent, had to sell their businesses, become destitute due to
"unwise investments" in PMs. Some changing to stock trading and getting
Publication of contrarian newsletters etc. declared "anti-American".
Sanctions on foreign contrarian publishers and Internet sites that
dare to suggest that stocks can go down and gold can go up.
Expansion of free trade treaties, with terms to benefit the companies at
Trade barriers against countries that "can't or won't play".
Nationalisation of gold mining companies for "strategic reasons" - no
public shares.

(Sun May 24 1998 09:44 - ID#31876)
The Big Story This Weekend Seems to be Golden Eagle, Symbol MINE

(Sun May 24 1998 09:46 - ID#373284)
DON'T forget the DROOY SAUCE!

(Sun May 24 1998 09:59 - ID#411112)
John Disney....that was some goooooood soup,thank you...please work on "another" for next Saturday:)


(Sun May 24 1998 10:00 - ID#286230)
May 24, 1998

This time, Clinton may not escape

Contributing Foreign Editor
WASHINGTON -- Bill Clinton's scandal-ridden White House looks like The
Jerry Springer Show, Newt Gingrich observed last week.
It certainly does. Where else but on the Springer slimefest could you see
such a collection of tawdry characters: fan dancers; thieving bankers and
shady lawyers; con-men and bunko artists; Chinese arms and drug dealers;
dragon ladies; bagmen; and the exquisite Paula Jones.
Plus the grand panjandrum of Washington influence peddlers, the late Ron Brown; chunky
bar bouncers turned White House 'security' consultants; redneck bribesters from Arkansas;
a Svengali-like friend of Bill, the most powerful chicken farmer since Heinrich Himmler; a
gaggle of high administration officials facing jail; Clinton's alter ego, porcine crook, Web
Hubbell; Vice President Al Gore's money-laundering Buddhist monks; and the unforgettable
Monica Lewinsky.
Americans, particularly women, shrug off this parade of sleaze. It's either too complicated,
or nobody cares about ethics when the economy is on a roll. The Clinton administration's
counter-attack team, led by Ozark swamp-creature James Carville, has excelled in
discrediting critics, and silencing witnesses by intimidation, or offers of government jobs.
Clinton's lapdog attorney general, Janet Reno, dutifully blocks investigations into
administration wrongdoing.

Defenders run for cover
But a very nasty scandal broke into the open last week that political Houdini Clinton will
find harder to escape than Lewinsky's lips. Even his staunchest defenders have run for
Johnny Chung, a Chinese-born California businessman, gave $100,000 to the Democratic
party for President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign. Chung was one of many Asians
( read Chinese ) who donated millions to the Democratic party, and to Clinton. In exchange,
they got access to the White House, hugs and photo ops with Clinton - and favors.
Republicans claimed Beijing was buying influence with the administration by sneaking
money to the Democrats.
Federal investigators have just identified the first solid link between China and the White
House: Chung's $100,000 came directly from the Chinese Army, via Lt.-Col. Liu Chaoying,
daughter of China's highest-ranking defence official.
Soon after the White House accepted Chinese money, an amazing coincidence occurred.
Clinton ordered loosening of export controls on missile and satellite technology to China,
overruling strong opposition from the Pentagon and state department.
Loral, an important, highly secretive aerospace firm run by CEO Bernard Schwartz, was
allowed to sell formerly classified technology to China. So, to a lesser degree, was defence
contractor Hughes Electronics. Schwartz is reportedly the single largest contributor to the
Democratic party. He went to China with Clinton's chief bagman, Ron Brown, closed the
satellite deal, and then gave the Democrats US$1.1 million. Just another coincidence, of
Secret U.S. technology passed to China as a result of these shady deals. Though
supposedly for civilian satellites, the dual-use technology has already helped China
improve the accuracy and reliability of its nuclear-armed ballistic missiles targeted on the
U.S. Beijing spent its bribe money wisely - for a few millions it got advanced military
technology worth 50 times more.
Another curious coincidence. Loral is a leading contractor for U.S. intelligence agencies.
U.S. military sources have alleged for years that Loral illegally handed over top secret
American electronic warfare technology to Israel. CEO Schwartz is a major supporter of
Israel. Loral denies these claims.
Israel has become a prime supplier to China of western military technology, particularly
aerospace systems. The Pentagon has long grumbled that Israel sells classified U.S.
technology to China - notably the Patriot missile, counter-measure systems and
phased-array radar - in violation of U.S. law. Israel denies it. Efforts to investigate these
charges have been blocked by the White House and Congress.
Unlike all the other Clinton scandals, this time it won't be easy for the White House attack
dogs to maul accusers. The FBI has an evidence trail leading direct to Beijing.

National security breach
This is too explosive for the usual Clinton double-talk - a possible major breach of national
security. Even Clinton's tame justice department may not be able to stonewall the
investigation this time.
Many nations practice industrial/technological espionage. A KGB source in Moscow told
me recently that 70% of all Soviet Union/Russian modern military technology had been
stolen from the West. China is no different. Many nations, including the U.S., obtain
technology by bribery or blackmail.
But this is the first time a foreign power may have managed to directly manipulate the
presidency. The only other case was in 1944, when Soviet intelligence had two major
agents of influence in Franklin Roosevelt's White House.
Maybe it's all just an incredible coincidence. Maybe Bill Clinton really did take time off from
feverish fund-raising for his re-election campaign to carefully evaluate China's struggling
space program. Perhaps all those stacks of crisp $100 bills from Chinese visitors to the
White House were really only to help Clinton's well-known passion for chicken-fried rice.
Slippery business deals and cash-stuffed envelopes are part of Arkansas political culture.
We are now beginning to see what happens when small-town Ozark chicanery is writ large
in Washington.
Interestingly, the astute Chinese understood this fact long before the American public.

(Sun May 24 1998 10:07 - ID#284255)
MBAnalysis - Stock Analysis
HM currently valued @ $7 --43% overvalued

Wavelet-Fractal 6-Day Price Pattern Prediction for OEX
More at:
US Financial Market Conditions:
Barnes Stock Market Indicator...

(Sun May 24 1998 10:20 - ID#373284)
Selby - If you think about it, since Hillary shot her mouth off about Israel the heat
in the kitchen has been turned up several notches. The intensity level has geometrically squared since that exact point in time.

(Sun May 24 1998 10:26 - ID#266105)

Another curious coincidence. Loral is a leading contractor for U.S. intelligence agencies.


Loral swallowed up Ford Aerospace some years back, the
prime contractor for ELINT tracking stations. Ford Aerospace
nee WDL nee Philco nee Sylvania--- as discerned by digging
through dusty satcom station files on midnight shifts--
contracting history going back to Syncom, Advent, Echo,
moon-bounce, those zillions of copper needles yet floating short, from the beginning. Still got some buddies
working those remote stations, Greenland, Seychelles.

Steve in TO__A
(Sun May 24 1998 10:39 - ID#209265)
kuston - re: OKC bombing
Here is a link that will give you the willies. It seems a private pilot was flying over a military encampment near Camp Gruber-Braggs, Oklahoma, in early April of 1995.

He saw a Ryder truck set up in an enclosure there & thought it was so odd he took a picture. It really does look like "the truck."

Anyhow the guy was too scared to go public with it, but noted military secrecy opponent Norio Hayakawa has made it public.

Go to:

to have a look!

- Steve

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 10:42 - ID#384350)
Correction on my 06:18
4th Paragraph, "probably against a possibility of someday joining the WTO" should read "probably against the possibility of purchasing nuclear weapon technology and software"

(Sun May 24 1998 10:44 - ID#413109)
Let's talk some more
There have been a variety of ideas posted as to where we are headed
in the PMs come this week, and from these levels.
I've checked my charts, looked into my crystal ball, and have seen the
same stochastics for XAU, and gold stocks,that you all have seen.
I have also checked the weekly and daily bullions prices with stochastics
and they seem a little contadictory.
My guess would be that we could possibly see a sharp one day, or intraday
drop, and then a sudden turn upward, when the markets open in 2 days.
The uptrending flag on bullion is seen by everyone, and is too obvious
for words. It could also be interpreted as two swings up and a third to
follow before a correction sets in. What do you think of that?
I'd be curious, what the RJs and other short termers, like Oldman are
thinking and doing at this juncture. Also Glenn, and DA, are part of the
small elite, who's input we all respect and admire, and long to hear.

Gusto Oro
(Sun May 24 1998 10:51 - ID#377235)
Selby, no! You're getting too close! --AG

(Sun May 24 1998 10:53 - ID#34857)
Allen(USA) - ..."if it looks like a duck"...


(Sun May 24 1998 10:54 - ID#284255)
Click on the picture of the face ( Artist:Steadman ) at the bottom of that url and go enter the next site.
A real weird one.

(Sun May 24 1998 11:06 - ID#255151)

No offense taken, mate. The congress is talking about holding much of the hearings behind closed doors due to "national security issues". Well Hell's bells, why do that?! China already has our most sensitive secrets. Who are they trying to keep the damn secrets from? Can't use terms I'm thinking right now, or I might get kicked off, but the initials are the same as Mutual Funds!

(Sun May 24 1998 11:11 - ID#255151)
Bernard Schwartz

The CEO of Loral will be on "This Week" on ABC this morning. Might be worthwhile to watch. Away to work.

(Sun May 24 1998 11:16 - ID#373284)
So that all may know...I will be meeting a fellow Kitcoite today and then shall take
them around so they may see the lodging and such for the August festivities. A full report will be posted later today. Namaste'

(Sun May 24 1998 11:20 - ID#412286)
Great Wash Post
article in the Outlook section of how the "elitists" have not been so congratulatory about the economy since the 20's. It discusses how most people's living standard has been falling during the ninties and that all the hoopla is by the yuppie elite who have benefited from the stock mkt. Astonishingly, given the news spin, 45% of workers view their interests inopposite to their employers. The article further notes it was 25% during the depression. We are going to have some political and class warfare fun when the bubble blows. Salute to the Post for such an honest article, a must read for all.

(Sun May 24 1998 11:41 - ID#267298)
Mutual Funds indeed........

(Sun May 24 1998 11:59 - ID#411149)
Damn, Double Damn, Tally Ho

Talk : Gold/Mining : Gold's Six Month Base Near Completion

| Previous | Next | Respond | Silicon Investor Home Page

To: Taurus553 ( 27 )
From: Bill Murphy
Saturday, May 23 1998 9:05PM ET
Reply # of 29

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am one of the Veneroso
Assoicates and new to computers and this sort of thing, so I do
appreciate the input. I will have to look into this profile and ID thing.
I have known Frank for 18 years and have seen him make the most
incredible calls. I believe he has another one in the making on high tech.
See the report ,High Tech, The Boom/Bust Cycle of a Gerneration?, on
our website of two weeks ago,
I suggest you take our two month, Gold Wastch, free trial that is
available on the web site. No obligation. This is the way we have built up
the most prestigious gold client list in the world.
Every indicator ( both fundamental and techncial ) tells us that gold is on
the verge of a big price move up that will surprise most.
I hope we can be of help to you in positioning yourself for this move.

Bill Murphy

PH in LA
(Sun May 24 1998 12:01 - ID#225408)
Real weird?

Re: your question to Steve. Are you refering to this one?

30 questions about the OK bombing that demand answers NOW! Weird but scary, too.

(Sun May 24 1998 12:09 - ID#284255)
PH in LA - no, this one -- enter

(Sun May 24 1998 12:10 - ID#206358)
AT LEAST THEY WON THE THOMAS CUP 1 HOUR AGO in hongkong something to cheers about tomorrow!

(Sun May 24 1998 12:12 - ID#153102)
@Can You Say Ready To Roll ?
1. What is Electronic Benefit Transfer?

Electronic Benefit Transfer ( EBT ) is an electronic system that allows a
client to authorize transfer of their government benefits from a Federal
account to a retailer account to pay for products received. EBT is
currently being used in many States to issue food stamp and other
benefits. About 20 percent of food stamp benefits are currently being
issued by EBT.

2. How does EBT work?

Under the EBT system, food stamp consumers apply for their benefits in
the usual way, by filling out a form at their local food stamp office.
Once eligibility and level of benefits have been determined, an account
is established in the participant's name, and food stamp benefits are
deposited electronically in the account each month. A plastic card,
similar to a bank card, is issued and a personal identification number
( PIN ) is assigned or chosen by the client to give access to the account.
Clients are offered the opportunity to change the PIN number at any
time, and are offered ongoing training if they have any problems
accessing the system.

(Sun May 24 1998 12:18 - ID#45173)
ROR Thx for the note on the Wash Post news
The only reason the middle class in the US has put up with decreases in real wages for the past 10 years is because they have benefited indirectly from the equities boom. Their retirement accounts and property have been increasing along with the stock market. If the stock market loses, say, 20% - 30%, their retirement portfolios and home values go to hell and the quiet complicity of the middle class in the 1990s party for corporate owners goes out the window with it. Look for the rise of politicians pushing an agenda of protectionism and redistribution of wealth in the form of corporate and taxes on wealth ( e.g., inheritence taxes ) . Those noted for brandishing symbols of wealth in the 1990s will be vilified in the 2000s, IMHO.

(Sun May 24 1998 12:32 - ID#242325)
EJ:Historically gold only moves big time when capital starts to fear the wrath of the masses. There will be plenty of wrath when this equity bubble bursts. This fear factor is far more significant for gold than such issues as how much the Europeans may sell or lease in the years ahead.

(Sun May 24 1998 12:33 - ID#412286)
What will come most under attack is "Tony Blairism" and "Clinton's New Democrat" cop out against working people and the middle class. Warren Beatty was on Larry king last night and basically stated that the DEMS have sold out to big money in the 90's. With the stk mkt "ethos" I guess we true progressives should expect that. However, talking to friens in Europe, the people there wont stand for the sellout to big money. They are maintaining their social safety net vis a vis the non existant one in the US. I think it is the stability and strength provided by the SOCIAL ETHOS in Europe which is the reason the Euro will replace the dollar. We will see how stable the US looks when the bubble bursts ( they know this and that is why there is a rush to EURO ) . The STK MKT CNBC ETHOS has causede many people to act against their own self interest. It is the social safety net which provides power to labor in its negotiating with capital. The happy talk about the economy is to keep people from realizing what is really going on. The Olive Gardenization or Mcdonaldsization of the labor force. Yes Virginia, there are alot of jobs in America if you will not be selfish by working for no benefits in a low paying hourly service job. I loved the Post article interviewing a machine co owner who cant find people who want to work for $10 per hour in LA. HELLO?

(Sun May 24 1998 12:42 - ID#412286)
If there is a family with H and W and two or three kids, it is economically more sound for one to stay home as the savings on Day Care and commuting expenses more than offsets the wages from low paying service jobs.

(Sun May 24 1998 12:45 - ID#408170)
A strange form of English! One I've heard before!
Want a Korean perspective on "US"... check

(Sun May 24 1998 12:51 - ID#153102)
@Why Low Wage Jobs Go Begging

(Sun May 24 1998 12:54 - ID#153102)
@Why Low Wage Jobs Go Begging
Teenagers are compelled to go to school so they cannot work to support the family unit.

(Sun May 24 1998 13:00 - ID#347235)
@ John Disney
John, Ah tahnks yo frum de bottom o mah heart Bossman! Ruddy Good and all that!

(Sun May 24 1998 13:02 - ID#153102)
@Let's Fight About It
Management and Capital think Labor is the Foe. Labor thinks Management and Capital are the Foe. Meanwhile, Usury devours them all.

(Sun May 24 1998 13:02 - ID#342315)
Think Hard and Long
It is a very appropriate post. It appears to me the what's visible from the administration fits your scenario well. The real nuggets of yours are what's not visible from the PPT. Keep up with your insights. Thanx, Charlie

(Sun May 24 1998 13:08 - ID#45173)
Corporate profits fall first time in four years; city banks see red
News from Japan Times today from Friday's reports:

John Maynard Keynes said there is a level of deflation that no banking system can withstand.


Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 13:13 - ID#384350)
Where's the Beef?
In today's Sunday Times, a chart showed that US inflation-adjusted per capita GDP dropped more than half from the early 60's to the late 70's and has stagnated with virtually no gain in the last 20 years.

PH in LA
(Sun May 24 1998 13:13 - ID#225408)
Ducks quacking at the same time!

Caught your quacking analogy yesterday and got me thinking. Today someone posted a reference to Veneroso saying that technical indicators are all saying the same thing ( massive move coming in gold ) .

Reminds me more how important discoveries are often achieved simultanously; since the relevant information is circulating out there and the same conclusions get reached by different people at the same time.

Sure would be interesting if he actually was that guy in Zurich, though. Wouldn't it?

(Sun May 24 1998 13:24 - ID#45173)
Ripping the face off Morgan Stanley salespeople
Awesome review in ASAHI of F.I.A.S.C.O.: Blood in the Water on Wall Street. By Frank Partnoy. U.S.: W.W. Norton. 252 pp. $25.

Shows the reality of derivatives trading.

"According to Partnoy,"derivatives have become the largest market in the world. The size of the derivatives market, estimated at $55 trillion in 1996, is double the value of all U.S. stocks and more than ten times the entire U.S. national debt. Meanwhile, derivatives losses continue to multiply."


(Sun May 24 1998 13:35 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro The beef is in the distribution of the GDP
zero or small inflation-adjusted GDP/capita increase in 20 yrs but look closely at the top 10% versus the botton 90%, or for a real shocker, the top 1% versus the bottom 99%.

Check out:\richpoor.htm


(Sun May 24 1998 13:39 - ID#153102)
@Mental Boundaries
The idea that government ought to run the economy is the only idea with currency. Probably 98% of the population is mentally socialist. Everyone talks in terms of Labor versus Capital even though there is no capital in circulation and all of the capitalists were wiped out by FDR. What people mean by capital is Corporation. The illusion is that the Corporation is private and capitalist. The reality is the Corporation is a creature of government and of The Bank, another creature of government.
One the one hand you have government and its creatures and on the other you have the governed. Those in the fold of government and its favored creatures are privileged by law; those outside the fold are not. The social safety net is when everyone is inside the fold.

In the 1920's the bank was the temple of commerce in America. Literally. Go look at some of the old bank buildings from that period. They look like classical Greek or Roman temples. They have porticos, fluted colums, the whole works. I could go on at length. So, when the banks failed in the 1930's, popular faith in capitalism failed, too.

What happened in America from 1860 to 1920 was the gradual introduction of usury into commerce. More and more wealth accummulated in the pockets of the usurers. The temple became grander and more ornate. Commerce became more dependent on bank loans. Farmers especially were bankrupted by the usury in the banking system. Go have a look at the defaulted loans from the 1920's and 1930's and you will see an enormous number were for farm implements. Modern tools for farming. It was the story of the Babylonian farmer all over again.

So, really there is nowhere for things to go but further into government organization of the economy and society. People have no other idea to work with. All the dispute is over what government should do; there is no dispute about its doing whatever is necessary. But, the facade of private ownership is useful to government because it is the spawning place for all sorts of distracting disputes that prevent people from seeing the real issues clearly. It's difficult for me to foresee the next stage of the developing "public-private partnership" in America, but I am beginning to think I dismissed the notion of "Social Security investment" in corporation stock too quickly.

(Sun May 24 1998 13:41 - ID#255190)
That's a good, if scummy, book. Read it last Christmas season. Yuck!!! But real. Makes ya wanta be in physical gold and silver. At least its not someone's scam.

Steve in TO__A
(Sun May 24 1998 13:50 - ID#209265)
Sharefin & PH
Sharefin- you're right, that link at the bottom of the Ryder truck page does lead to a link with some weird connections.

Of course, the stuff that N. Hayakawa finds himself investigating, at Area 51 ( Groom Lake, Nevada ) represents Air Force high weirdness at its best. Click on the link to Hayakawa's homepage if you want to really get an eyefull.

PH - Your link seems to lead to a page on the OKC coverup.

(Sun May 24 1998 13:50 - ID#45173)
Allen(USA) I got the idea the book does not paint a pretty
picture. I see derivatives as porn and the mutual fund market is soft porn. There's no perfect Norman Rockwell market out there, even among gold buyers and sellers, physical or stocks. But a spot price is a heck of a lot easier to track than the supposed value of a stock, derivative, or currency. At least you have a chance.

(Sun May 24 1998 14:07 - ID#286230)
Have you ever lived --say for 2-3 years in an avowedly socialist country. One like Holland or England or Canada where the governments collect and provide for every citizen cradle to grave healthcare, unemployment insurance, old age pensions and that sort of thing?

(Sun May 24 1998 14:13 - ID#20748)
Mike Sheller
When do you break your vow of silence. Are you in agreement with Arch Crawford re next week.?

(Sun May 24 1998 14:15 - ID#153102)
The only part of this Y2K coup that I foresee at the federal level which I can't figure out is how Clinton will stay in the Office of President despite the Constitutional prohibition.

One thread of clues is in the Executive Orders that are extant on FEMA. Because as I recall, there is a reference there to bringing key "private" players into the FEMA shadow government. This then tracks very well with the speech to the boy-Farraguts regarding the coming "genuine public-private partnership". I think the latest Executive Orders on FEMA will fill in the blanks.

(Sun May 24 1998 14:20 - ID#153102)
No. Have travelled. Could I come to Canada and mooch on EBT ?

(Sun May 24 1998 14:21 - ID#342315)
Aurator re assay
Did you ever have any luck on getting your gold articles checked?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 14:22 - ID#384350)
EJ, that 1% represents the Priests of Baal
I have an ancestor who had a farm in the US in the last century. In the 1800's a large part of the American population were farmers, with maybe a farm of 500 acres.

What value would the IRS slap today on a US Farm of 500 acres, with a well-constructed quality farmhouse, structures, machinery to farm it, all without any debt?

I would guess easily upwards of $2 million.

Can you begin to understand how much poorer almost everyone is today?

(Sun May 24 1998 14:24 - ID#410215)
..... Trading, Poker, and Risk .....

EJ -

Excellent article about derivatives.

The quote that struck me was, " Whatever you call them, derivatives have been the source of immense profits for investment banks and massive, often little-understood, risk for investors."

There is nothing wrong with risk, as long as one completely understands the risk. The problem I find on Wall Street is that there is NO risk. Ask anybody. They will all tell you everything is rosy. What, Me worry? Brokers give very little accurate information on the downside risk, and clients pay little attention to that.

The following pertains mostly to metals and I use the term "you" generically:

Investing in these markets is like a poker game. First rule is NEVER invest more than you can afford to loose, and Im not talking about retirement money or the kids college fund either. If you want to trade the metals, apart from taking delivery for long term holding, use only speculative money. Investing more than you can afford to loose is playing with scared money.

In poker, you bet the hand, not the money. If you got the hand, you call and raise. If you already have it all on the table, your judgment will be clouded by the amount you stand to loose rather than the hand you hold. If you are in over your head and the market moves against you, unless you can afford to loose what is on the table, decisions will be colored by the money not the market.

I work a great deal with leverage and leverage is a double edged sword; it cuts both ways. People should always be made aware of the risk, and understand it completely. If one can only trade one side of the market, all trading decisions will be, "where is the bottom?" and, "Where is the top?". The market moves two ways, trading only one side of it cuts you out of 80% of the game. The real money is to be made in that grand and glorious middle. Toss out the top 20%, same with the bottom 20%, just let me trade that beautiful 60% in the middle. Indeedy yes.

Imagine you could go to the local supermarket, a few miles away, but were not allowed to turn around to go home. "No turning here fellow, we go only one direction here. Just continue on your way" says the traffic cop who looks just like Chief Wiggins on the Simpsons.

25,000 miles later, you would have traveled around the world only to reach where you started, but now the milk is sour, the ice cream has long since melted away, and you are lost in some hallucinogenic haze caused by white line fever and sleep deprivation compounded by a constant diet of dry Froot Loops and stale Oreos. ( How do you spell Oreos? Oreoes? Little help from Dan Quayle please )

The point to the Sunday morning rambling is to know the nature of the beast. I cannot count the times Ive seen someone sell at the bottom of a drop only to see it soar a short time later. Most here look at the fundamentals of the markets, and many argue the merits of investing by these fundamentals. The market will try and shake you off like a flea, but it is up to you to hang on or find another dog.

I believe gold is cheap here, although I have limited expectations for its near term performance.

Silver is way iffy, although the fundamentals are strong.

Platinum has some people worried. You all know what I think of Platinum.

Palladium if for adrenaline junkies.


Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 14:27 - ID#384350)
EJ, the Family Farm
I wouldn't be surprised if some huge corporation or trust owns that farm today.

(Sun May 24 1998 14:27 - ID#373284)
What did Crawford say about next week?!?

(Sun May 24 1998 14:29 - ID#286230)
Don't know about EBT but I imagine you ould make some arrangement there and access your US account via a bank or credit card.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 14:32 - ID#384350)
@mozel, EBT
Why don't they just tattoo a bar-code on their arms.

Steve in TO__A
(Sun May 24 1998 14:34 - ID#209265)
EJ & Allen - derivatives
What do you guys think about the derivatives market? I was astounded to read in a Financial Post article that a lot of the big mutual funds are hedging with derivatives on their equity holdings, rather than moving to cash, as they become concerned about the market falling.

There are *huge* amounts of derivatives out there. Some of these funds have hedged as much as 20% of their portfolios. That's billions of dollars of face value.

In the article the author mentioned another little secret of the mutual fund industry. In Oct, 1987 a lot of mutual fund managers liquidated by writing options or selling futures contracts rather than selling their shares on the exchanges. This is how they beat the masses out in getting their shares sold while Mr. & Mrs. Joe Average couldn't get through to their brokers, and their brokers sometimes had trouble selling when they did get the order. The fund managers were also starting to use this technique in Oct. of 1997 when the panic was brought to a halt by the Plunge Protection Team.

It may seem like a handy way to exit the market when a panic is in progress- but the question is: Can the derivatives market actually handle the kind of selling that will break out when a serious economic breakdown occurs?

We might see the derivatives market might go haywire,especially if it happens during the Y2K fiasco. It is completely dependent on trust that people will settle- but what if losses become uncollectable? That would destroy the hedges of other companies, who might go bankrupt or default on their obligations if they are the writers. This derivatives thing could create a financial cataclysm unlike anything the world has seen before.

Just as an aside for you Americans- or people elsewhere who have US mutual fund holdings. The SEC rules state that a fund can pay unit holders who are redeeming their units in kind with shares from their protfolio rather than in cash during a "market emergency."

Imagine this scenario. A market panic is in full swing and your smarty-pants fund manager tries to do an end-run around the exchanges by selling a bunch of derivatives on the shares he wants to unload. The collapse of an underwriting house or an options exchange, however, suddenly means that it could be months before his trades can settle and he can physically liquidate his position- if indeed the security funds set up to deal with this sort of thing even have enough money to get everyone out 100% on the dollar. Meanwhile, unitholders are flooding the office with redemption requests, and in the wake of ongoing market declines triggering the stock exchange "circuit breakers" so that the exchanges are only open for a few hours before going limit-down every day, he realizes he's got to liquidate a ton of other shares, and has nowhere to go to get rid of them.

What can he do? Heh, heh. . . suddenly unitholders start getting notices that they are the proud owners of thousands of shares of IBM, GE, NEC, etc.. These shares keep on going down, and those ex-unitholders have no more hope of selling them than their mutual fund did!

It'd make 1929 look like a picnic!

- Steve

(Sun May 24 1998 14:58 - ID#218386)
Scary post Steve in TO. Does the same out apply to Canadian Funds? When derivatives are used during a general sell-off - who gets left holding the bag? Do Money Market mutuals offer any protection? As I understand it, Mutuals are able to drop the Unit price below the $10 if significant number of investors request redemptions at the same time.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:07 - ID#153102)
@Gianni @selby @Steve
Gianni They could tatoo digits or a bar code. But, wouldn't it be an ostentatious display of their power ?

selby In selling the advantages of full press socialism, maybe you should undertake a smiling face or beautiful female or paunchless male index or something. How about "Our Alfred E, Newman's Live Longer and don't fart as much."

@Steve Everything is under control, ultimately. Here are the real risk managers: "We also recognized that our mission to reduce the loss of life and property included protecting the Nation's institutions from all natural and man-made hazards. FEMA consequently began to direct efforts towards creating an agency that would restore the confidence of the American people and fulfill President Clinton's promise to "be there" when America needed us."

A derivative is just a man-made hazard.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 15:07 - ID#384350)
10 kids in a Cadillac
standing in line for a welfare check
Let's all leech off the State
Gee, the money's really Great

We just get by however we can
We all gotta duck, when the sjit hits the fan!

Soup lines
5 lb. blocks of cheese
bags of groceries!

(Sun May 24 1998 15:09 - ID#288260)
Your comment about the "cheerleaders" ( brokers ) is right on In mistifies me how much "market news" is available on radio and TV. Never used to be like this, radio used to run mostly music now I hear all sorts of business programming. Don't the people they interview, or quote always have a conflict of interest? ( THEY make the comments,THEY are the "experts". In the long run, don't they benefit themselves, whether they are on Wall Street Week, Moneyline or local radio? In their position of authority, would you shoot your self or your fellow players in the foot? It is to their benefit that the market either goes up or goes down, they make commissions no matter which way the market goes. When it's time for a massive down turn there will be commissions to be made. If the market stops groping its' way up then their income will dry up. Then it will be time for the down turn. Don't low volumes mean brokers are losing potential income? High volumes are what they want, negative or positive. Of course if it bottoms the commissions will go down because the price has dropped. ( coincidently the same thing happens to them at a top ( with volume ) but then it turns and they are off to the races again. Is it possible market tops and crashes come about because the insiders need the money?
Doesn't this happen not just in the brokerage business but in all sales and marketing areas?
Yesterday I heard some "money advice" saying, don't bother with RRSP contributions ..borrow money and buy the market, then the loan becomes a tax write off, made it sound like it is a sure thing. Of course they wanted you to phone them and get their "expert" help. God help us all.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:10 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro Yes, a person who owed their own land had wealth
but little liquidity and no mobility. This is true today in agrarian societies. The rise of industry made ownership of machines of production the basis of wealth. In the info age value is not in ground under your feet or the machine that makes weaves the fabric of your cloths but the stuff between your ears if the stuff you have is scarce and valued. It is highly mobile and changes the rules of who does and does not own the means of production, at least in the high tech and biotech industries.

To your point, the massive amount of debt we owe on behalf of our government is what makes us poor.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:16 - ID#242325)
fear and greed
RJ: Isn't the fact that investors have become oblivious to risk a key factor behind gold's lackluster performance? Seems to me that when fear replaces greed as the dominant investor emption the gold market will be NASB.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 15:16 - ID#384350)
Sure it would be ostentatious, but if a person wants to eat, what choice is there. I suppose the govt would probably just shoot a smart chip in the recipients arse.

BTW, I once saw a lady who had a number tatooed on her arm. It was from when she was a little girl in a Polish concentration camp. So it wouldn't be unprecedented.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:16 - ID#45173)
Steve in TO Good points, and not at all far fetched
in addition, the new circuit breaker rules mean the market can go down as much as 30% in one day.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:19 - ID#153102)
There is a Emergency Management Administration counterpart to the Federal in every State.
If somebody could dig out the Executive Orders on FEMA, I believe it would help us all plan for Y2K.
I can't get squat out of the WH link.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:24 - ID#286230)
Mozel: I haven't been selling socialism just asking questions. Actually I vote the right wing parties here.

I have been demonstrating that you know as much about socialism as you know about the surface of Mars -- what you have read or your grand
daddy told you.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 15:25 - ID#384350)
EJ, you sound like my Econ 201 teacher
I think we will shortly see those who wished they owned a farm rather than 5000 shares of Dell.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:31 - ID#153102)
All good salesmen start by asking questions and denying they are selling anything.
Wing this, wing that hardly matters if it's a socialist bird.
I think your demonstrator is broken.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:35 - ID#286230)
Mozel--We all know whats broken--your image. I'm off to enjoy the Sunday afternoon--Have a good holiday.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:39 - ID#45173)
RJ Great post on investment philosophy
Playing the range is the way to make $, not trying to time the tops and bottoms. I have a friend who made over $100k in a year on a transaction cost of $3k by playing a highly predictable spread of about 10 points between 30 and 40 for a high tech stock. It tooks ome discipline and balls, but he stuck to it and made out well. My friends give me grief for getting out of the stock market about two months ago and missing the ride to 9000+. But I figure I'll pass on what I guess to be the last 10% of the market rise after enjoying the rise from 1987. Bought into gold at between $990 and $300 and silver a little high by today's prices, at around $6. Maybe some selling will drive gold down to $280 or even lower, but I won't fret because these prices are probably at the botton 10% of the next bull market for gold. Anyway, I think that if it can keep close to $300 with all the Asian selling going on, it'll not go much lower. There are many possible "defining events" ( Y2K, Japanese deflation banking collapse, war, stock market crash, etc. ) , most of which one can plausibly connect with a positive move for gold. I am not certain about silver, although it simply looks cheap too.

The most positive event for either metal is one that gets the masses scrambling for a hedge against inflation or a relatively liquid place to park wealth when even Treasury Bills are suspect ( the Fed can convert your T-Bills into Note in an emergency ) .

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 15:41 - ID#384350)
Can you grasp the concept of 10 for 11?

I know it is a scam responsible the stealing of wealth and the murder of millions, so Please don't include me in your statement, "the massive amount of debt we owe on behalf of our government is what makes us poor."

I owe nothing to no one.

I am not one of yours.

(Sun May 24 1998 15:44 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro I don't know how to farm, and I'm too lazy
anyway. Best I can do is buy the output from those who do know how and aren't too lazy, and keep some real money handy to buy it with... gold.

Off to meet a pal for Sunday afternoon drinks. Can you say, Mescal?


(Sun May 24 1998 16:02 - ID#254112)
@Gianni Dioro: How refreshing to read your words!
You said:
".. so Please don't include me in your statement, "the massive amount of debt we owe on behalf of our
government is what makes us poor."

I owe nothing to no one.

I am not one of yours."

That must sound like a drink from a pure spring of health in the ears of puritanic Americans, who identify with their government and suffer under the huge debt ( US$5.5 trillion + ) , instead of asking themselves:
"What the hell do I have to do with this thin air bs".

Alberich the Dwarf

(Sun May 24 1998 16:02 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro Seems I struck a nerve, no offense intended
How did your ancestors lose the family farm?

(Sun May 24 1998 16:22 - ID#372276)
mozel@Executive Order 12919
mozel, this from bbfisher

this is not what your looking for perhaps, but it is a pothole along the same road. alot to do w/FEMA as well

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 16:23 - ID#384350)
mozel, Fuzzy Thinking Liberals
I used to live in a Socialist country like the one Selby described. It was terrible. Double-digit unemployment rates. The country was polluted. Most everyone was disenchanted, and grumpy.

People struggled to pay their bills to the state monopolies for heat, electricity. People couldn't afford to eat out. Taxes were burdensome.

The Mob grows bigger every day.

Whether a country is a socialist state like Sweden, the former USSR or one like the US it is the same: A few families ( the usurer ) end up owning and controlling most all the resources and industry of a given nation. The people become enslaved to work for these families.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 16:27 - ID#384350)
mozel, Socialist Utopia
I almost forgot to mention that the country was overrun with foreigners, just like ancient Rome.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 16:30 - ID#384350)
Credit to Mozel, for the "I am not one of yours"

(Sun May 24 1998 16:33 - ID#227238)
Tamerlane: Please resubmit your last post. The URL was truncated on my screen and unuseable. TIA.

(Sun May 24 1998 16:36 - ID#372276)
the site is down for now, as it was yesterday afternoon as well. sorry

(Sun May 24 1998 16:36 - ID#153102)
Thanks for the posts. Maybe Selby will give me "remote learning credits" on the subject of socialism and it will improve my image.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 16:55 - ID#384350)
The old guy died in a snow storm trying to save cows. Maybe a distant cousin still farms it, but I doubt it. I just said it wouldn't surprise me if a big corp or Trust owned it. That's how things work in Babylon. The masses are taxed while the usurers accumulate it all.

Que vous buviez en paix!

(Sun May 24 1998 17:08 - ID#252127)
Rubin Says no change in US dollar policy

I wonder they do when foreigners cash in bigtime on their treasuries, and when the huge BOP deficit is not played down by the press and Armstrongs flow of funds ( er paper debt ) theory.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 17:09 - ID#384350)

To be a socialist, you just need to learn to pretend to give a damn about the poor. I recommend studying BJC. He is a lot better at it than his predecessor, GHWB, who uttered the infamous words, "I do care."

(Sun May 24 1998 17:19 - ID#341234)
Y2K Survival
If you are interested in Y2K, please check the post on K2.

(Sun May 24 1998 17:37 - ID#411331)
@ALL One theory for the cause of the Great Depression of 1929-1939 is overconcentration of
wealth in too few hands. By Oct. 1929, 1% of the population of the United States owned 36% of ALL the wealth. The theory goes that the 1% simply did not spend ( and could not spend ) all that money, so it went into paper and land and art, but not cars and furniture and food. So much wealth concentration meant that the masses had nothing to spend, and
production ceased through a general lack of liquidity. One of the purposes of taxation is to remove excess profits from those who have too much and place it into the pockets of those who will actually spend. If that is socialism, then at least it's better than deflation and depression. By the way, 1% of the population of the United States NOW owns 37% of all the wealth!

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sun May 24 1998 17:51 - ID#384350)
partial repost from may 14, 17:48
From Nexus Mag. Aug-Sep 93 ( Vol 2, no 15 ) which was extracted from the book, "Sar Cycles, Peace Cycles" by Richard K Hoskins. Published by: The Virginia Publishing Co, PO Box 997, Lynchburg VA 24505


( In Italics ) "Interest requires a heavy tax so that money will not be hoarded but circulated to pay interest"--Hoskins' 4th law of interest.

This universal taxation, whose benefits were discovered long ago in Greece, is essential to the usury system. Through the years men have spoken against taxation. Everyone who has paid taxes has wanted to do away with them, but what happens when taxation is abolished? The usury-bankers end up with all the money, and none is left in circulation. The only thing that has kept the usury system operating through the ages is taxation. In spite of its beneficial effects, the biggest and most modern buildings in the blighted debt-ridden downtowns of the world are still banks and insurance companies. Both are active in usury in slightly different ways and have cornered the larger part of the wealth of the world.

People who talk against taxation haven't thought the matter through. The only time heavy taxation is not needed is when there is no usury system.

Author's note to "*" above ( Today, special taxes such as the "inheritance tax" are used to force owners to sell their businesses and land to corporations owned by the international usurers. A businessman may have bought his business for $50,000. He dies and it is valued at a million. The son is often forced to borrow heavily to pay the inheritance tax. When he cannot meet payments, he is foreclosed. This is the only way the usurers could ever hope to capture most family-held property passed down from generation to generation. )

(Sun May 24 1998 18:26 - ID#285121)
Ponder this please !
Could Congress be to afraid of a stock market crash to do what should be done about Slick ?

(Sun May 24 1998 18:27 - ID#34857)
PH in LA (Ducks quacking at the same time!) - Really...
Like the glass being half empty or half full: two opposing perspectives - with seemingly opposite conclusions - that mean the same thing.

What encourages me are the many, many references in the media and elsewhere to themes and concerns that have been playing themeselves out in this very forum for months. All of a sudden there appears to be a wider awakening to the problems we've known about but "they've" elected to ignore.

One major topic on this forum has been that of the masses blindly following the Lord DOW, mindless of the changes and the threats they pose to their lifestyles and security. The Kitco thread goes that until they wake up to the realities of the financial world ( the REAL picture ) , they will not drive PMs to the lofty heights all other indicators say they should be at. I'm excited to think that this awakening is starting to happen... not all of a sudden, mind you, but it's happening bit by bit. It's a bittersweet thing, though; becasue as many here have stated... when the turnaround comes, most will have missed the boat.

The waters are going to rise too high and too fast for anyone without slick and buoyant feathers to stay aflot ...

...and that's what struck me about the strange fellow on K2 who used my handle to praise his love for ducks. He too - apparently, and on his own - came to the same conclussion I did, but doesn't realize its significance yet. I do, and that's why I too LIKE DUCKS!


(Sun May 24 1998 18:39 - ID#412286)
Democratic Socialism
is the only model which will allow the US to recover from the horrible concentration wealth that has occurred as of late. The state and industry must do their best in cooperation to provide education, medical care, a base std of living for all. This can be implemented through more progressive taxation and regressive taxation on products which have a deleterious effect on society. On the employment front the Feds can through regulations ensure hiring in companies by exerting more govt control. Establishment of a two tier currency system and some price and production incentive/controls would make sense. All is not lost this provides a good way out of the coming problems caused by Wall St greed and excess. Maybe Brokers and other financial professionals will be required to enter re-education classes to ensure the excesses dont occur again. Listening to CNBC makes one feel this may be necessary.

(Sun May 24 1998 18:56 - ID#210235)
I'm not sure if your tongue is in your cheek or not, but have you ever lived in a democratic socialist country? Or studied this in any depth? If you're not joking, then you really need to do your homework.

silver plate
(Sun May 24 1998 18:56 - ID#234253)
LA Times business section
Full page article on inexpensive gold mining in Peru, mention of Newmont and Cambior as big players there.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:04 - ID#227238)
ROR: You cannot be so naive as to believe that taxes are acutally used to benefit the people and that additional taxes will make all things all better. If you do please cite your evidence. For example: the rate of funding for education, in constant dollars, has increased several fold over the past 30 years. With what result? A larger, more powerful teachers union and lower test scores for the pupils.

Higher taxes only benefit the anointed and politcally well connected.

Gusto Oro
(Sun May 24 1998 19:05 - ID#377235)
Didn't the state and industry do its best in cooperation to provide these things under National socialism and Fascism? --AG

(Sun May 24 1998 19:06 - ID#290118)
Internet is the Greatest force for Democracy since - ANYTHING
Keep the mushrooms in the dark
When they stick their heads up
Cut "em off!

So how will the Internet survive given all the government's efforts to repress the populace - especially the intelligent,investigative, doubting populace.

If they can bring the Internet down - take our network away from us - isolate us - it will be much easier to conquer us.

Just our ability to distribute information internationally will make it so much harder to deceive us with lies about the OKC bombing - If the Ryder truck at a military post was not a fake photo - it means we can't trust them either. Regardless of assurances that the military will not let Klinton become a tyrant and subjugate this nation.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:09 - ID#411112)
Socialism in America,for those who would like to see how many socialist are in congress,heres a URL

that lays it all out,they call themselves progressives,however once a red always a red no matter what name you call it,just for the record folks on the left always call us on the right Nazi's,yet it is these guys who supprt the Nazi economic plan......more on this if there is interest'


you need to search under members to find the list of congressmen/women

(Sun May 24 1998 19:10 - ID#411112)
Socialism in America,for those who would like to see how many socialist are in congress,heres a URL

that lays it all out,they call themselves
progressives,however once a red always a red
no matter what name you call it,just for the
record folks on the left always call us on
the right Nazi's,yet it is these guys who
supprt the Nazi economic plan......more on
this if there is interest'

you need to search under members to find the
list of congressmen/women

(Sun May 24 1998 19:14 - ID#411112)
Sorry guys screwed up that URL here it is

(Sun May 24 1998 19:21 - ID#412286)
Democratic Socialism
provides a better deal for people than capitalism or corporatism ala US. I have friends in these countries and all have a higher std of living than the US and would not trade. In the US they are trying to take away SS and medicare which decrease the quality of life and lead to poverty for nmany middle class people in old age. This will not happen with Democratic Socialism. If your young healthy and rich I admit the US is a better place to be. For all others it is the shits and getting worse. The financial bubble burst will show the emperor has no clothes and bring the Reagan Revulsion to a close. Clinton is continuing Reagan's econ policy while veering to the left on social policy. This is what the greedy yuppies want ie they want to make their money and not feel bad about having an abortion or committing adultery. The smart money knows Reagan Bubblism will not last and even money wants to go where there will be social stability as prvided by DEMOCRATIC Socialism.This is as opposed to dictatorial socialism ( Proleterian and National ) which is in the same vein of concetrantion of wealth and power as occurs in US model of Capitalism.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:30 - ID#43460)
robnoel__A about socialists, and a report from middle America.
Hi, I'm just back from a short trip to visit relatives and what do I find when I open up Kitco? A followup discussion of the Democratic Socialist party from what was it, last week or the week before? Did you get to the webpage where they were grading the Rupublicans in Congress, the prezz et cetera? I was happy to see that Clinton has fallen to a C- and the Republicans were a solid F in their grading system. Maybe there's hope after all.

On my vacation I was greatly pleased to see that in more rural areas the federal government is soundly ignored. I saw people building houses using fill dirt over wetlands, reasonably priced housing, a phone book with only one yellow page of lawyers, farmers plowing, junk stores with hundreds of contraband 3.5 gallon toilet tanks, families gathering together to have picnics in the absense of members of outside ethnic and religious groups ( well I take that back there was one Baptist brother in law ) , police who were respectful of other's lives, private business and property rights, earrings made of raccoon and mink penis bones, people driving carefully with open beverage containers in their cars, and too much more to tell. The one sad part was that I saw no gold nor silver at all except for jewelry.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:33 - ID#210235)
Photographs are a little suspect on the net. With photoshop and enough time, almost anything can be put together that will look real on the web. The resolution just isn't high enough to allow an examiner to discern the tiny flaws that could be seen under the highest resolution.

Those photos just raised more questions. Who took them? Why would some passer-by take those two photos? Without some sort of documentation it just goes into the rumour basket. What's more important is why are we seriously examining and discussing this? The level of disbelief people have about ANYTHING that becomes the official word of the USG is almost unbelievable. Start with the Warren Commission Report and come forward through the Johnson/Nixon years. It's just downhill from there.

The internet is already leading the way - look at the influence of the Drudge Report! Already the heirarchical system of information control has exploded. Even if the internet stopped tomorrow, there is so much information transfer already, stored in millions of homes, there's no going back. Remember back in the 80's, when about 50 corporations bought out and achieved editorial control of virtually all the newpapers in the US? Harharharharhar! Build a better mousetrap, get a better mouse!

(Sun May 24 1998 19:33 - ID#43460)
ROR, what do you do for a living?
Serious question here. I'll tell you why if you 'fess up.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:41 - ID#227238)
ROR: In many ways I admire your adherence to a political line that goes back a long ways - comparatively speaking - on this site. On the other hand, your political differentiation between degrees and types of socialism is a never ending source of mirth. For when you distill the crap out of the rhetoric, your systems of socialism are - in the end - all coercive. You and folks like you will decide what is best for me and how my resources will be employed to serve to he public good.

Can you imagine that there are many here who find that approach repugnant? ....... In the end the laws of natural selection will prevail and all the socialism and "warm fuzzys" in the world will not stop it. .... A decidedly unwholesome prospect to contemplate.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:45 - ID#227238)
gagnrad: That was a swell report but, c'mon a mink ain't got no bone in his boner. ; ) ....... but a walrus does. It's called an oosik and it's impressive.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:48 - ID#31876)
I'll be First to Admit The Data is Outdated. This Article on U.S. Debt is Still One of the Best.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:48 - ID#286230)
Loral chief denies using political influence

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The chief of an American satellite company being
investigated for possible illegal assistance to China strongly denied
Sunday that he tried to influence with political donations the
administration's position on its satellites.
Bernard Schwartz, chief executive of Loral Space and Communications,
said he "never sought a favor nor got a favor" for his business in
exchange for his major donations to the Democratic Party.
Schwartz, on ABC's "This Week with Sam Donaldson and Cokie
Roberts," said he never spoke to President Clinton about his business.
He said he did not know last February of any controversy over a White
House decision to override Justice Department objections and grant a
waiver for Loral to sign another satellite deal with the Chinese.
The Justice Department warned that the waiver could jeopardize its
investigation, but Clinton went along with the conclusion of White House
and State Department advisers that the waiver was in the national
National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, on CBS' "Face the Nation," said
the granting of waivers for satellite cooperation with China goes back to
the administrations of presidents Reagan and Bush, and "political
considerations had nothing whatsoever to o with the decisions made. We
made the best decision that we knew how in the national interest"
"If the implication is that I would take a stand that was harmful to this
country for my business interests, this is absolutely outrageous,"
Schwartz said.
The Justice Department has been investigating whether Loral passed
sensitive missile-related technology to the Chinese after a Chinese
rocket carrying a Loral satellite exploded in 1996.
Both the House and Senate have started separate investigations into a
200-page report Loral engineers produced after that incident and
whether it provided information to the Chinese that compromised
American national security.
Schwartz said the report was basically to confirm what the Chinese had
determined to be the cause of the explosion, and there was "nothing of
technical competence" adequate to advance Chinese technology.
In Beijing last week, Liu Zhixiong, vice president of the military-owned
company China Great Wall, the Chinese company involved, said the
company never saw the report. The U.S. government impounded it even
before it was released to the insurance underwriters who requested the
outside review, he said.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:51 - ID#210235)
To really understand Democratic Socialism, you've got to live it. It's really subtle at first, to realize where the chains are. I lived in Germany. The government took most of our income as taxes, and spoonfed it back as socialized medicine, education, etc. No choices. No spending money. After a couple of years, I was at the point where I was elated if I found a pair of shoes that fit and were affordable. Never mind that the color wasn't right. Tiny homes, getting ever tinier. The incredible shrinking standard of living. My cleaning lady here in California lives better, drives a better car, has a larger, nicer, apartment and more vacations than software engineers back in Deutschland. And better health care.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:55 - ID#340459)
Tokyo should be opening soon, Hope that POG improves.

(Sun May 24 1998 19:55 - ID#43460)
Earl, O.k. maybe it was really a 'possum's and they lied!
The point was that free enterprise still exists. I even met a high school history teacher who smugly admitted that she still gave open book essay tests and since she was the only American history teacher at her school nobody could graduate unless they passed her tests! Come to think of it she was running a home computer with 1/4 ounce gold heat sink on its CPU, too! Even better!

(Sun May 24 1998 19:55 - ID#287193)
? Question..
are they talking about Socialists....

or Capitalists......? maybe Nationalists...

(Sun May 24 1998 19:59 - ID#340459)
Secret Service
World Leader Reconsiders
Secret Service Use On U.S.

Cites privacy concerns after
judge's ruling in Clinton case

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The Secret
Service says a world leader might
reconsider how he interacts with agency
bodyguards on visits to the United States in light of a judge's ruling that
agents can be forced to testify in a grand jury investigation of President
Bill Clinton.

The leader told agency director Lewis Merletti that he fears his privacy
could be jeopardized if agents can be ordered to say in court what they
witness, Secret Service spokesman Arnette Heintze said Sunday.

Heintze would not identify the leader, except to say he is "head of a G-7
country," or leader of one of the world's richest industrialized nations.

Newsweek magazine reports in its issues on newsstands Monday that the
leader is Canada's prime minister, Jean Chretien.

Citing unidentified sources, the magazine said a top Chretien aide relayed
his boss' concerns to Merletti at a January meeting. An affidavit Merletti
filed in special prosecutor Kenneth Starr's investigation of Clinton's
alleged affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky said
unsolicited concerns about privacy had been raised by an unidentified
international head of government.

Heintze declined to speculate on whether other world leaders might have
a similar reaction, but said, "Somebody has to weigh this issue very
cautiously, because political assassinations are a way of life."

The complaint comes after Clinton predicted last week's ruling would
have "a chilling effect" on the way presidents conduct themselves around
their bodyguards. In the ruling, Chief U.S. District Judge Norma
Holloway Johnson said Secret Service agents could not remain silent
about the president's activities if called to testify.

She noted that agents have testified voluntarily in some previous cases and
said she was "not convinced that compelling Secret Service personnel to
testify before a grand jury regarding evidence of a crime would place
presidents in peril."

Her ruling also said: "When people
act within the law, they do not
ordinarily push away those they trust
or rely upon for fear that their
actions will be reported to a grand
jury. It is not at all clear that a
president would push Secret
Service protection away if he were
acting legally or even if he were
engaged in personally embarrassing
acts. Such actions are extremely unlikely to become the subject of a grand
jury investigation."

The Secret Service was called on to protect international dignitaries in
1,480 visits.

"We would have less trust and confidence from the protectee and be
pushed out, a couple of feet to a matter of yards," Heintze said. "We think
that history has shown that proximity has been, definitely, a factor in
previous assassination attempts on presidents, and tragically, the death of
a president."

Tim McCarthy, the Secret Service agent wounded in the 1981
assassination attempt on President Reagan, told NBC's "Meet the Press"
on Sunday that the judge's ruling threatens the already difficult relationship
between agents and world leaders.

"There's a struggle all the time with them, because they're worried about
confidentiality," McCarthy said. "They're worried Secret Service agents
may be intelligence agents. ( They ) are clearly going to say we're going to
have to keep these guys farther away.

"We know that proximity in 10ths of seconds are what saves presidents'
lives," McCarthy said. "This ruling will expose the Secret Service
protectees to a greater risk than need be the case."

Jerry Parr, working alongside McCarthy when Reagan was shot and the
agent who shoved the wounded president into his limousine and
accompanied him to the hospital, said Johnson's ruling also might
discourage agents themselves and put them in doubt about whether they
could risk their lives for the person they're guarding.

"This will have an effect on how they think about this," Parr said. "It might
be like one of these little wounds that is insignificant now, but it has the
potential to have catastrophic ... something catastrophic could happen."

(Sun May 24 1998 20:01 - ID#340459)
Anti-Nuke Hijacking foiled in Pakistan
Pakistani commandos
capture hijackers

May 24, 1998
Web posted at: 7:06 p.m. EDT ( 2306 GMT )

Passengers, crew safe;
anti-nuclear students held

( CNN ) -- Pakistani army
commandos captured a group of
five armed hijackers Monday
who had held a Pakistan
International Airlines plane with 29 people on board at an airport
in Hyderabad for eight tense hours.

The 24 passengers and five crew members who were on board the
plane were reported to be safe. One hijacker was injured.

The hijackers were identified as students who oppose testing of
nuclear devices.

After hours of negotiations, the hijackers released 13 of their
hostages and were persuaded to leave the aircraft and come out
onto the tarmac early Monday morning for further negotiations,
according to Defense Ministry officials.

Dozens of commandos who lay in wait for the hijackers, pounced
and arrested all five, the officials said.

The twin-propeller Fokker Friendship aircraft, Flight 544, was
hijacked Sunday as it was headed from Turbat, in remote
Baluchistan province near the Iranian border, to Karachi.

The Pakistani Defense Ministry
identified the hijackers as
members of the Baluchistan
Students' Federation, a group
that has been protesting
purported plans by Pakistan to
conduct underground nuclear
tests in the province. They had
demanded passage to India.

There have been several anti-government demonstrations in
Baluchistan since reports surfaced last week that Pakistan may be
preparing a site in the province for an underground nuclear test, in
response to similar tests by arch-rival India.

During the hijacking, plane's crew calmed their captors by telling
them that the plane was crossing into Indian territory and was
landing there, according to sources in the Defense Ministry. But
before the plane could leave the country, a Pakistani air force
fighter jet forced it to land in Hyderabad, about 90 miles ( 144
kilometers ) from Karachi, at about 8:20 p.m. ( 1520 GMT ) .

There, it was surrounded by security forces, who parked vehicles
in front of the plane to prevent it from leaving. Negotiators then
boarded the plane to talk to the hijackers, who were reportedly
armed with both guns and grenades.

A crew member had been released with a list of demands.
Pakistan Television reported that the men wanted fuel and safe
passage to New Delhi.

(Sun May 24 1998 20:02 - ID#340459)
Far East current POG is $ 299.25
Go Gold Go..

(Sun May 24 1998 20:03 - ID#43460)
Too bad ROR can't or won't answer my question.
One of the things I think makes the internet a great equalizer is its ability to allow people of all stripes to discuss issues. But I still wonder what would make a socialist interested in gold? And I really wonder what sort of work a person would be able to learn but remind a socialist. Unemployed painter/paperhanger perhaps? ( %-^] )

(Sun May 24 1998 20:05 - ID#340459)
Negative opening in far east - POG 299.05, Man I am getting sick of this down moves

(Sun May 24 1998 20:06 - ID#210235)
@Joys of Democratic socialism
As they come to mind - waiting over 6 weeks to get the phone turned on by the Government-owned phone company. Getting an old-fashioned rotary phone with a cord, in ugly green, as that was the government issue. Paying over 100 dollars ( USD ) for a phone call overseas that would have cost 20-something the other way. No competition. Paying high prices for everything, if you could find it. No choices on children's school curriculum. Teachers that believed they were demigods, and knew they were officials of the state, who had the arrogance that comes with total job security. Paying over 80% of all income to taxes. Having the state compute the income tax, which they had witheld, anyway. You get to review and sign it once a year. Seeing neighbors get busted for trying to hide money abroad. Seeing friends unable to get the open-heard surgery they needed because they were too low on the list, while they had to stop all work and exercise due to their illness. ROR, you've got to go live it a few years. See how long you can survive without draining your savings!

(Sun May 24 1998 20:08 - ID#252150)
The more things change...........
In 1929, deflation was spreading across the world; currencies were being devalued; economies were sliding into recession. But Wall St. was euphoric. Who cared what those Germans, Italians & Britons were suffering?

(Sun May 24 1998 20:12 - ID#340459)
Nikkei down 45, POG 299.85

(Sun May 24 1998 20:14 - ID#206358)
nikkie open down 30+..yen head south 136.749!
Yen head for 140 soon!

(Sun May 24 1998 20:15 - ID#340459)
All markets lower in Far East currently

(Sun May 24 1998 20:17 - ID#287193)

All these old socialists...

no wonder the GOLDBUGS do not know what to do !!

(Sun May 24 1998 20:18 - ID#340459)
@JIN, Stronger Dollar means WEAKER Gold, Why do you want Yen to drop to 140 ??
Lets not forget that Asians are BUYERS of Gold

(Sun May 24 1998 20:23 - ID#287193)
oh, gagnrad you not..
know that here only the Lovers answer each others questions!

( I sure have found a lot of palladium !{SITES} )

(Sun May 24 1998 20:23 - ID#252150)
From Donald Coxe@The Globe & Mail--Great Titanic analogy.
The reality is that deflation is out of control in Asia, & it will surely affect N. America in an unpleasant fashion. Admittedly, to date , Asia's deflation has meant bargains for consumers, falling inflation & falling interest rates. But those are temporary gains. When 700 rich people left the Titanic in life boats, it did mean that the deserts in the 1st class lounge were available to third-class passengers, but that was no cause for celebration.

(Sun May 24 1998 20:29 - ID#331205)
Democratic Socialism @ 18:39
ROR: Will the re-education process for brokers and financial

professionals take place in a camp-like setting?

(Sun May 24 1998 20:30 - ID#342397)
K2 and ICQ, Could someone enlighten me please
I work in the Texas oilfields and read Kitco on weekends. It usually takes two days to catchup and I almost never get current and therefore seldom post. But I have missed the thread re: K2 and ICQ. What's all that about?

(Sun May 24 1998 20:35 - ID#210114)
ROR and Democratic Socialism
ROR, I find your posts intriguing. Someone who declares their allegiance to Left of Centre politics on this forum is as rare as hen's teeth.

For the record, I am in the left wing of a social democratic party and generally concur with your arguments. The distribution of wealth in the western world and in particular the US is appalling. Why shouldn't working people get a fair share of the wealth they help to produce?

However, I'm curious to hear what your definition of democratic socialism is.

Live Long and Prosper ( with social justice ) .

(Sun May 24 1998 20:41 - ID#252150)
Prometheus@Socialists, Liberals ,Conservatives ,Republicans--As soon as they get elected
they become members of the parasitic class. Basically, they all want to live very well through the efforts of others.

(Sun May 24 1998 20:41 - ID#43460)
Spock, and what do you do for a living?
S'vous plaire?

(Sun May 24 1998 20:43 - ID#412286)
Prometheus and Gagnerod Democratic Socialism/ Freedom for most
Promo Your description of life in the Democratic Socialist countries is not even close to the truth. The systems involve private enterprise balanced against protecting workers std of living. As to the school system it is better than the declining and worse gun toting school system of your free Capitalism US. Also a phone call may cost a little more but a college education costs almost nothing ( not to mention other basics of life ) . Which is more important? As to surgery, the entrepenuer who built a business in US will go broke and his family lose their inheritance if his insurance isnt right when he gets sick after 60. BTW we have medicaid/ do you think that care even comes close to european care..No way Jose! Democratic Socialism is about protecting the wealth and quality of life of most people and quite naturally those driven by the Profit God dont like it. Just dont fall for their propaganda. True freedom for all lies in a system based around the principles of Democratic Socialism especially for entrepeneurs and the middle class as it gives them the financial bedrock to compete in the market and not give their labor away due to big businesses superior bargaining position.

N A Democratic Socialist Loves gold because it is counter to the US Currency which is causing destruction of people's lives around the world. GO GOLD!!!!

(Sun May 24 1998 20:43 - ID#210114)
Mode of Living
Am currently a post-graduate student looking at International Relations. Before that I worked in a Supermarket.

Live Long and Prosper ( Aisle 4 for Sugar )

(Sun May 24 1998 20:45 - ID#403335)
RJ-Gold Buy Point?
As I remember, the last projection you had on gold was a buy under $295 ( ? ) I believe. If you've been around markets long enough, I'm sure you realized that they do the "darndest" things. One of which might be to not fall to our buy point. What is your plan B. When do you concede that gold is going up, without first going to your buy point?

(Sun May 24 1998 20:57 - ID#206358)
MIDAS A!Sorry ..!
midas A,
I didn't meaned "I WANT THE YEN TO BE WEAKER"!!I just report what i know and saw.I'm gold wholesaler/retailer,off course i hope the metal shoot up to the sky.As RJ,i played two sides markets. I sold in higher price and hope to cover back the stocks lower.Occationally,i do speculated ( depend the rumors and reliable sources ) .
The markets is extremely difficult to predict and judge,especially for the one no skill liked me.After two years involved in KITCO, i learn a lot,and realised i'm "Frog in the well"!!
Anyway,life still go on...!
Thanks ,Bart!

(Sun May 24 1998 20:59 - ID#411112)
ROR,what you are promoting is the same as Hitlers economic pan,if you really want me to post it I


(Sun May 24 1998 21:01 - ID#411112)
pan should be plan,before the PC police come around


(Sun May 24 1998 21:03 - ID#227238)
ROR: It would appear that your experience with "Democratic Socialism" is taken from readings and the anecdotes of like minded individuals on the continent. Prometheus, on the other hand, appears to have been one of those lucky individuals for whom the system was instituted. Not surprisingly, there is huge gap between political theory and objective relality. The credibility round goes, clearly, to Prometheus.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:05 - ID#206358)
MIDAS A!Sorry ..!
midas A,
I didn't meaned "I WANT THE YEN TO BE WEAKER"!!I just report what i know and saw.I'm gold wholesaler/retailer,off course i hope the metal shoot up to the sky.As RJ,i played two sides markets. I sold in higher price and hope to cover back the stocks lower.Occationally,i do speculated ( depend the rumors and reliable sources ) .
The markets is extremely difficult to predict and judge,especially for the one no skill liked me.After two years involved in KITCO, i learn a lot,and realised i'm "Frog in the well"!!
Anyway,life still go on...!
Thanks ,Bart!

(Sun May 24 1998 21:06 - ID#410114)
My y2k gold projection
It's march 1999 and there is a run on the banks. People are pulling cash out of their banks but around the end of march banks start issuing certified checks in lieu of cash. The bank customers that receive these checks are not satisfied. So they look to spend them on tangible items.. anything tangible. Houses, cars planes, food stuffs etc. Some people choose gold. As there is a sudden and unexpected demand for tangibles, the prices of these things skyrockets. As the gold price rises, the holders of dollars begin to buy gold with their currency and gold's value v. all other things skyrockets.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:11 - ID#210114)
It appears that what you are advocating is the European 'social market economy' which exists in countries such as Germany, Austria and Denmark etc.

Generally speaking, I agree with you. They do need to make sure that they don't become too rigid. Having said that income distribution is far more eqitable that the US. Having visited both Europe and America I must say that there are about 10 times more beggars in the US than Europe.

Fearral capitalism as we are seeing it is not sustainable. It needs to be managed. Otherwise society will fall apart. Despite what Thatcher said, there is such a thing as society and community.

Live Long and Prosper. ( Lebe den Sozialmarkt wirtshaft! )

(Sun May 24 1998 21:13 - ID#225273)
Turning up
The Japanese stock market has turned positive as of 9:14 PM. It is now up 8 points after being down earlier.

My usual sources for night time gold quotes are not working. Can anyone give me a URL so that I can track the action in gold tonight?

And I have one more question: Say it's Tuesday night and we see that June gold has moved up $.50. Where is it trading that it has moved up $.50?

The Preacher

(Sun May 24 1998 21:13 - ID#254112)
@Prometheus and others(@Socialism) Your 19:51
You write about your experience in Germany. Was that the former East or West Germany?
I grew up in West Germany and worked there as a software engineer for 20 years. I'm now working in America since 9 years. As far as income is concerned, I must say I made a lot more money much easier in Germany than here...
When I compare how contractors are paid here and what they make in Germany ( until 1989, that's how far I can tell from my own observations and experiences ) , I paid for programmers already $50.00 per hour 1980. That's the amount you can easily hire contractors in the Washington area today ( in spite of Y2K! ) .

My feeling is that the general standard of living is higher in most of the European countries than in the USA. You have much more poor people here than in Europe. But probably this could change slowly because of the high unemployment which they have over there in Europe.

The great advantage which America has compared with Europe is the entrepreneurial pioneering spirit which is here still alive. Not so in Europe. Burocracy in large corporations is worse in America than in Europe, even though it's also terrible in Europe.

These are my personal observations

Now let me add on something about the European and the American perception of Socialism. There is one big difference. I find the perception of socialism in America healthier than in Europe. Because Europe was more exposed to socialist propaganda than America.

However: the most important reforms, which seem "socialist" from American viewpoint: Health care for the working class, unemployment benefits for the working class, retirement benefits for the working class have been established in Germany by an extremely conservative politician: Bismarck.
Around 1890. The famous "Bismarck'sche Sozialgesetzgebung". He was not a socialist, he was not a social democrat. He actually hated the social democrats. ( Part of these laws are also the pohibition of employment of children as workers and certain aspects of the public school system. )

Later the interpretation of his "Sozialgesetzgebung" was turned by socialist ideologues into socialism.
Socialism as an ideology tries to dominate people by taking away, step by step, the responsibility for their own lifes. There is more sense for the dangers of this ideology alive in America than in Europe.

The reason for this has also an upside and a downside.
The upside in Europe: homogenous people feel responsible for each other ( like family, like original tribes ) and don't want for anybody to suffer.
The downside in Europe: it's being misused and it paralyzes entrpreneurial initiative and self-responsibility.

The upside in USA: misuse of social welfare is dispised and viewed more critically than in Europe. Sicialist ideologues have less of a chance here in USA ( even though they are also active! ) .
Downside in USA: USA is not at all a homogenous community. The individualism in USA has a barbaric face. This is not true for ethnic oriented communities in the US, like the jews and the black muslims.
But these ethnically oriented communities focus on themselves. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't get chauvenistic. But there is nothing what Americans unifies. At least I havn't discovered it.

Alberich the Dwarf

P.S.: Please excuse if I mistyped. I don't have time now to reread what I wrote.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:13 - ID#210235)
I repeat, you haven't done your homework. I've lived it, have friends and family still over there, and keep up with the news. The big difference is that here the middle class has a chance. Read "The Millionaire Next Door" yet?

You are calling me a liar. I can only say that you are either just plain ignorant, trying to generate alot of anti-socialist truths from the other members of this forum on a slow day, or another greedy gus who wants to get his hands on OPM. Whatever, I am out of this discussion. Your statements are so blatently false, I won't honor them with a response.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:16 - ID#227238)
B4 JD and the spelling police arrive: the word should have been "reality." ....... I just get so excited when I consider the merits of life under democratic socialism. Everything is free. Don't cost a dime. Think about! Someone else does all the work and I get a free ride. Gonna get me some 'a that. Yesssir! ........ When Mozel gets bored with philosophizing he's probably gonna be in charge of handing out the food stamps and welfare checks. Probably even be in charge of the appointment book down to the medical clinic.

Anyone remember the lyrics from "The Big Rock Candy Mountain"? " .... where a bum can stay for many a day and not need any money". Or how 'bout from Merle Haggard: "We'll all be drinkin' that free Bubbleup and eatin' that rainbow stew". Yessir, we gotta git us some.

Lan Man
(Sun May 24 1998 21:18 - ID#320108)
@On the front page
of the L.A. Times - Sunday Business Section "Bonanza in the Andes" is a picture of a geologist with a ore sample in hands at the Yanacocha mine. The writer, a commiecrat named Chris Kraul proceeds over 2 pages to talk down gold, Newmont Mining and mining operations in general. He rambles on about possible environmental concerns regarding spillage of cyanide solution into streams, displays a chart of the POG going down over the past 2 years and of course the usual "Central banks around the globe are expected to continue to sell off gold reserves, depressing prices" chant.

To me it seems that he gets all of his research info straight from Looters network. In his statement " The preponderance of the mines 1,200 jobs held by local residents are menial" suggests to the reader that they are nothing more than slave labor. Everything he wrote is a half truth. It is plain to see he is trying to get the readers to stay away from gold and gold mining shares.

But what should we expect from the New Era Hyping Clinton Loving Mutual Fund Pushing Radical Left Wing Ultra Liberal Debt is an Asset L.A. Times? ( By the way, the only reason I get the Sunday delivery is for my dog to do her "stuff" on it! )

(Sun May 24 1998 21:23 - ID#412286)
You are obviously know what I state rings true but you cant come to terms with it because of your own orientation. I understand but your reference to Hitler's plan was obviously an emotional response which shows I have hit a Chord to which you can not respond on an intellectual basis as your emotions are too tied up in defending ( maybe ) the Reagan Revulsion.

FACT: Europe is profoundly Social Democratic.

FACT: Conditions in the US are moving to Dickensonian Levels as to Labor's bargaining position and the educational system is moving into a dumming down mode for most. ( precursor to controlled subservient status )

FACT: There is a NEW world Reserve Currency being established in the DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST COUNTRIES.


(Sun May 24 1998 21:29 - ID#227238)
Spock: How does one guarantee that a "Democratic Socialist" political entity does not/cannot slip into one or another of its uglier modes?

Here we are in a nation, acknowledged to be free, democratic and capitalist and it is now impossible to take a leak but that it be delivered into a politcally acceptable 1.6 gallon per flush appliance. A democratic nation where war veterans will have their VA benefits cutoff, if they are smokers. Forgetting of course that for years and years, cigarettes were a part of military ration packs.

Imagine, if you will, what this cabal of lunkheads ( your socialist brothers ) is capable of if allowed to sieze the bit of socialism. ...... I won't work and ya can't make me.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:32 - ID#34857)
ROR - Good God, Man... what closet did you just crawl out of?

(Sun May 24 1998 21:36 - ID#412286)
Promo comment of 21:13
Yes and I might win the lottery. This is the decrption those in corporate power want to keep. Give up your economic rights and maybe you'll be the one to hit it big. Such has free mkt economics decended to. Albereich from Germany? TELLS IT RIGHT. You PROM are someone who has benefited from the one sided propagandized system here and I dont blame you for defending it it is your right! Just as I have the right to promote what I believe is the COMPOSITE maximization of Freedom ( personal, social and economic ) provided by Democratic Socialism.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:39 - ID#153102)
Your EBT medical privileges are suspended for anti-social attitudes.
Clean up your act or your EBT food allotment will be reduced.

Did you read what Alberich said about he can't figure out what unifies Americans. He's observant. The only thing holding this place together is martial law. The guts is gone.

What was that novel that started out with the text of Big Rock Candy Mountain ?

(Sun May 24 1998 21:41 - ID#153102)
@ROR is F*ing LaRouche in Drag

(Sun May 24 1998 21:47 - ID#227238)
Mozel: Will my medical benefits magically reappear if I switch from tobacco to the more politically acceptable cannabis or perhaps that white "nose candy"? If we got rid of those two items, hordes of bureaucrats would be out of a job. Ain't gonna happen. Now or under ROR's democratic socialism.

"The Big Rock Candy Mountain" is a tune that goes back to the depression years of the '30s. Kinda 'ppropriate.

BTW, what the hell's EBM??

(Sun May 24 1998 21:47 - ID#153102)
Why is it against the law to kill socialists ? They are preparing to form a pack to come and rob you and chain you up if you don't follow their rules. Why do you have to wait til they get organized ?

(Sun May 24 1998 21:50 - ID#411112)
RoR,it was not an attack on my part or based on emotion

we have different view of the world if socialism was a success where is it.....

(Sun May 24 1998 21:50 - ID#412286)
I offer you free CNBC de programming. Lets look a critical thought and result and not labels. I think stating I am a Democratic Socialist causes a problem here BC of the LABEL. It is truly difficult to overcome years of anti-DEMOsocialist propaganda even though much of the world is such except US. GO EURO!!! GO GOLD!! BYE BYE CAPITALIST DOLLAR!!!

(Sun May 24 1998 21:51 - ID#153102)
If you get your nose candy through the cop and social worker network I can restore your benefits. Just bring a note from your parents to school.

Hell if I know what is EBM ? EBT is Electronic Benefits Transfer. Posted on it earlier.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:53 - ID#227238)
Mozel: Under the rules of common law, they must first enter the house, uninvited, before we able to declare open season and not incur the wrath of the king.

Picking them off around the Volvo store or w ( h ) ine shop is never considered good form. They herd too tightly and selectivity is impaired.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:56 - ID#27341)

(Sun May 24 1998 21:56 - ID#153102)
You are wrong about the common law. If there is a known robber in the neighborhood, you can kill him on sight.

His associates are considered accessories.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:57 - ID#411112)
ROR something I forgot to add,we will most proberly

agree on TRANSNATIONAL CORPORATIONS,as I have said before when the details of the Multilateral Agreements on Investments is known left and right will agree,for different reasons but agree that its a bad personal feeling is until we pick up arms to defend Liberty,we can talk and share but if that day does arrive you will not be a friend

(Sun May 24 1998 21:57 - ID#412286)
Polemics are the last resort of an argument which you can not win!! We look out for yours and everyones rights across the spectrum. The goal is to maintain all liberties under the constitution and with it include the intent of the Framers of the Constitution; SOCIAL and ECONOMIC JUSTICE FOR ALL!

(Sun May 24 1998 21:58 - ID#190411)
@ROR and Spock
What I like about you socialist weevils, is that you haven't the guts to come to our houses and businesses to take the fruits of our personal labor. You have someone else do it. So called progressives, ( an oxymoron if there ever was one ) sneer at the types of people that do the actual armed theft of our labor.
I bet you wouldn't want to associate with the types that come to your door in the night. You should pack some weapons and go on a charity drive in your neighborhood, but you won't, because you haven't got the guts.
Gold Standard is anathema to your expropriator class.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:58 - ID#227238)
Mozel: Ahhhh! It's EBT. Mea culpa. ..... Had it confused with Electronic Bowel Movement. ........ Sorta fixated on those 1.6 gallon per flush appliances mandated by ROR's buddies in the EPA.

(Sun May 24 1998 21:59 - ID#340459)
Excuse me but I feel that Gold is f%*king DEAD, If any sh&thead with paper can rape this metal with
derivatives, It no longer commands any respect of the populace. We have been living a pipe dream here and all aspirations to make money on this Dog has been a failure from last two decades. The Mine producers actions alongwith CB's have seemed to have sealed it's fate for a long time, Their actions have completely f&*ked it's value and Gold Investors are nothing but laughing Stock by all main stream Investors. Maybe it will reach $ 320 when we are all dead, it has been doing nothing but nickel and diming since I am invested in it since Mid 80's. It cannot hold itself above even 300 for a decent length of time let alone talk of $ 30,000 gold. We display unflinching faith in this most unfaithful metal and getting screwed financially big time, This metal is sinking like a rock and all logic, Charts, Waves, Astrological calculations for it to rise has so far been WRONG.

The likely scenario that will make POG rise as envisaged by some is total market collapse and utter ruin of millions, which will be an evil abomination for the already suffering and poor masses of this planet. What f&*king good is this belief or Investment Principle if it needs an economic apocalypse.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:02 - ID#227238)
Mozel: I be likin' this common law business more and more all the time.

Taxes exacted from A to give to B? Sounds like robbery to me. You sure the king won't get pissed?

(Sun May 24 1998 22:03 - ID#153102)
A benevolent dictatorship with all your rights and liberties preserved.

Those are exactly the words used by Congressman Fish of New York to describe the New Deal of FDR.

Democratic Socialism is Nazi and if people resist it, they are sent off for re-education in a concentration camp.

The label that belongs on you is a Bull's Eye.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:05 - ID#223391)
My experience was in West Germany, where I worked for a multi-national corporation, also as a contractor. In the US, contractors were making $50 as hour for software, as in Europe, in 1980, BTW.

We are seeing a huge contraction world-wide in salaries and payscales, standard of living, as the world adjusts to the opening of the East, of Russia, of India, where skilled, highly-educated engineers are available for a song, and will be for the forseeable future. It has already gone on for nearly a decade, but I think it will be several more years before it is finished. We must be careful not to blame this effect on other forces.

There is a separate situation of CEO's making rediculous salaries, such as when the CEO of Nike earned more than an entire Asian factory making shoes after closing one up here in the Pacific Northwest and moving the manufacturing abroad. This is not what I'm discussing here, just engineers and execs, ordinary people and how they live, where they're going. I saw a standard of living in Europe that doesn't begin to compare with our own, despite our corruption and angst!

Microsoft and several other large US corps now have development groups in India. It is Microsoft's largest outside the USA. This is part of the rush to lower cost structure as they see the results of Asian slowdown impacting their markets. Eventually, skilled labor in Asia must nearly equalize in cost that in the US and Europa. We haven't seen the end of this. In Europe, also, we see the affect of low-cost competition from Spain and Europe going head-to-head with France & Germany. In busses and trucking, for example. The Italian driver was working for around 40% of the German, the equivalent of 8DM compared to 20DM for the German. They earned the right to compete on an even playing field back in 89 or 90, with obvious results. Has this settled yet?

It is possible that you are feeling the effects of currents that are greater than you think. What you have experienced in the US is what I am also hearing from abroad. It is a ratcheting-down of the standard of living of the middle-class. It is a shame. I am studying it with the sole intention of helping others to avoid the pit. Happily, I am on high ground, but for practical as well as altruistic reasons, want to bring as many people as possible up here!

A large part of the problem, both here and abroad, is people's tendencies to keep spending after their real income goes down, at the higher level to which they were accustomed. They spend into debt and we get a tremendous crisis when it happens a million times. Like our current bankruptsy rate.

In the US we have an amazing amount of refugees, economic if not political. We have, especially in California, a number of foreigners that is astonishing. I have heard, from teachers, that as many as 1/2 of all families in this state have another language as their first. And many languages are involved. This presents a chaos and the results in our education system are obvious. It is, nevertheless, our strength. These people are the salt of the earth, and we are blessed to have them. In the end, it will be our shared belief in our systems and freedoms, that will win the day.

When we all lose is when we attribute problems to wrong causes.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:06 - ID#412286)
The top ten countries in terms of std of living are in Europe and are Democratic Socialist. It is the US Capitalist Trade and Budget Deficit anything for profit credit card system which is failing except for an exceptional propaganda phase. You are obviously out of touch with this thread. It is the Capitalist US which will blow next. It will be interesting how the nouveau entrepenuers/mutual fund officianados like it with no Social Safety net. IMO WALL ST is fraudulent in its current phase. When justice reins it wil not be WAll St but Wail St.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:06 - ID#153102)
Who has the f8ing right to call himself King ?
Piss on him.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:07 - ID#255217)
All, ugh, socialists don't bother
The US is still the best place to be, despite the fact that we have a gutter rat for president and an incredibly imbicillic, corrupt congress. But we are headed downhill fast and it makes me want to puke when I realize we may end up like those "enlightened" countries of western Europe so championed by ROR. Capitalism, despite its perversions, and free enterprise still remain the cornerstones of libery and freedom. May they never die and VIVA GOLD!

(Sun May 24 1998 22:08 - ID#227238)
Midas: It's not " .... an economic principle". Rather it's a course of events that has high probability of occurring in the very near future. Ignoring that course of events will likely have very little effect on the outcome. But you're welcome to do so, if it eases your mind any.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:13 - ID#227238)
Prometheus: "When we all lose is when we attribute problems to wrong causes." ........ Well stated.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:14 - ID#27341)
yep,capitalism down the drian nexy

(Sun May 24 1998 22:14 - ID#254112)
@ROR and others: Please don't make an Ideological fight out of this.
I find what you describe about Europe quite balanced. And I'm not surprised that you say EUROPE is profoundly "social democratic".
In a way, the Social Democrats, who are today internationalists, most of them working for the New World Order, have taken credit for the achievements of Bismarck. At least in Germany. But his concept became also an example for other European coutries. Think of the barbaric Machester capitalism with the exploitation of children as workers and all kind of attitudes which treated workers like low types of animals. This was completely inhuman and had to be overcome.

But the origin of this kind of solidarity, which is rooted in the feeling of homogenous peoples to care for each other and to accept that someone belongs to your own people not matter how rich he/she is, this solidarity transforms into social policies. Originally, this has nothing to do with the ideology of Social Demoracy.

The Social Democratic parties in Europe take advantage of the solidarity among peoples. They make an ideology out of it.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Sun May 24 1998 22:16 - ID#412286)
Still defending the system here/ when the collapse occurs such opines will be no good. Robnoel just admit that you fear Democratic Socialism because it might cost you money. Lets get down to brass tacks your attitude is to hell with the society I am feeding off of I dont want to give a nickel back. Hit a chord?

(Sun May 24 1998 22:16 - ID#434158)
ROR Socialist "Flying high"
Right. Then why is the dollar the reserve currency of the world? Why is the dollar flying high? Because there is less government interferance in the economy in particular and life in general in the US than in any other industrialized nation. As long as that's true, capital will flock to the US and to the dollar. IMO ( no H on this one. )

(Sun May 24 1998 22:17 - ID#27341)
oops- thats , next

(Sun May 24 1998 22:19 - ID#412286)
Gunga Din`
The last strength of a 54 year old system which is dying.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:21 - ID#27341)
Hang in there mate

(Sun May 24 1998 22:22 - ID#412286)
The sooner the USA charade ENDS the better for the world. On the DAY THE USA meets its maker we will all raise a pint to JUSTICE and the INTERNATIONALE!!

(Sun May 24 1998 22:22 - ID#227238)
ROR: Guys in the upper tax bracket are giving something close to 50% to the state ( state and fed ) . That ain't exactly chump change.

You continue to labor under the illusion that most us here support the present system. You're wrong. It is disgusting. That fact is plainly transmitted here on an hourly ... sometimes momentary basis. Please don't continue to bring up that tired argument. It won't fly.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:23 - ID#43460)
Spock, thankyou for the reply.
I can better see your perspective better now. I should have guessed it but didn't want to sound condescending. I think that one of the limitations of civilized society is that persons are artificially kept in adolescence long after the normal time for adulthood. One falls into the trap of performing token tasks for the instructors and forgets they are mere simulations of external reality. You have my sympathy, as I have been in a similar circumstance some few years ago. Luckily for me I realized what was happening and grew up. ( ;-^] ) IMHO

That having been said, I will wait on whether ROR decides to 'fess up as well. IMHO

As a point for you to ponder you might wonder why it is that your perception of reality diverges so sharply from that of others here. Is the problem in the mental apparatus as some conjecture, in your observational skills as others allege or might it be that you have been given predigested purposely simplified information appropriate to your artificially ( and externally ) arrested adolescent status in the community? IMHO

As a second point to ponder you might compare and contrast the concepts of state socialism and CORPORATE socialism. IMHO

And, for the sake of at least a token mention of gold, you might ponder as to why and how socialism under governments will be any friendlier to the investor than socialism under multinational corporations.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:25 - ID#153102)
The US is going down the drain soon because it is a Democratic Socialist country. It cloned itself in Europe when the place was rubble after WWII.

When the center pole of this Democratic Socialist tent breaks, the whole F*ing tent is coming down and Europe will revert to its old ways. The whole F*ing world has been riding on the coattails of the US middle class and it is about stripped bare from taxation to pay usury and devaluation to maintain the appearance of expansion.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sun May 24 1998 22:30 - ID#347267)
Bart's Charts
What Gives? Main chart blank ( to my Computer ) and alternative site: showing decline to 296 and May 10, 11, and 12th dates??? Be neat to get some real and early POG's!!

(Sun May 24 1998 22:30 - ID#227238)
gagnrad @22:23: Pierced, plucked and skewered without so much as a hair out of place or the hint of perspiration. ...... Exceedingly well done.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:32 - ID#223391)
@mr. Mozel
You would be very surprised, I think, to sit in civics class with my son as he studies the constitution and our system, and surfs the internet at night for examples of court cases and other news which involve it. It is still the heart of our hearts and the center of our shared culture. You should see the pages my son pulled off the "net" studying gun control.

The fat lady didn't sing yet. A new generation is growing with the internet as its primary source of information. Not the TV. Take heart.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:32 - ID#255217)
Right On.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:33 - ID#411112)
ROR we are not defending the scum on Wall St.greed is as bad as communism,let me try this again we

defending LIBERTY,as stated in the constitution and the bill of rights,by the way,the Wall street Washington crowd are by far liberal..... not many real conservatives....spend some time on my web page you may learn something and get a good deal on gold

(Sun May 24 1998 22:34 - ID#27341)
Nice work, you did,nt shoot anyone, more than i can say for some others,

(Sun May 24 1998 22:34 - ID#412286)
Decries lower labor costs world wide as causing wage depression. He has just stated the case and necessity for the expansion of Democratic SOCIALIST ideas worldwide. There is nothing about freedom which is singular to one country. Suppression and low wages in one country is a detriment to workers in all countries. Thus the need for Democratic Socialist Internationalism to offset the FREE FLOW OF CAPITAL!!

(Sun May 24 1998 22:36 - ID#39971)
We Interrupt This Political Science Debate...............
To bring you this article from that bastion of capitalistic predominance,

the L.A.Times..........Go Gold.....soon.....tick tock..tick tock...

(Sun May 24 1998 22:38 - ID#434158)
Mozel, ROR@riding on the coattails of the US middle class
The US ain't "going down," at least not in comparison to the rest of the world. True, standard of living will slip some, due to competition from the developing world: true, we are in for a heck of a Y2K crisis: true, there may be a recession/depression, complete with bank runs, etc... But which nation is MOST well prepared for Y2K? WE ARE! Terribly, pathetically underprepared, true, but well ahead of the rest of the world. And which nation's socioeconomic structure is best postioned for a quick recovery? OURS IS, because in Europe every potential response will have to go through seventeen committees, whereas entrepreneurs here will find innovative solutions with lightening speed ( too slow to avoid crisis, but faster than anywhere else. ) The government will survive because the current crop of self-indulgent sycophants will be ousted in our regular bloodless revolution in a few years. They will be replaced by a new crop of self-indulgent sycophants eager to show how different they are from the former crop. In Indonesia you had the same gang for 32 YEARS! This ain't perfect, it ain't pretty, but it beats any other system in the world. Still.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:39 - ID#412286)
Socialism is pro family and conservative in nature. Get your big money induced US Cold War perceptions of Socialism ala the Terrorist regime which ruled Russia after 1932 which may have been created by big money to thwart the attractivenees of Democratic Socialism which THEY knew would occur. THEN the fascist Stalin got out of control/ unforeseen but a risk.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:40 - ID#227238)
ROR: You speak of capital as if it exists as a actual entity to be plumbed and sluiced as a function of state will. And wages as if they are to be determined by fiat. Or perhaps divine intervention. How will this creature of yours function?

How does the concept of "better, higher minds acting in the public interest" play into your vision of this singular utopia?

(Sun May 24 1998 22:40 - ID#263133)
Here. here (Hear)
Midas, you have the guts to say it like it truely is. Unfortunately, the hanger on's here at Kitco will probably find such statements obusive. Platinum is, I fear, like Gold, dead, especially given the financial conditions developing for most countries. Watch out for those that poisit otherwise, most that I follow here have agendas that are certainly not on an altruistic nature.

silver plate
(Sun May 24 1998 22:41 - ID#289466)
I throughly enjoy your postings and your description of things down your way. You are more fun to read than Another and your english construction is precious. Please continue to post with current events and your personal life style.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:45 - ID#153102)
@ROR @Promo
All I can say is ( add sarcasm here ) thank God for Democratic Socialist Europe and Democratic Socialist downunder, else we would have this internet at all.

@Promo They are plotting at the top. This "genuine public-private partnership" through FEMA is no bluff and no delusion. I have seen tears spring from the eyes of young people at the realization of the vast gap between the gurantee and the reality of liberty in America. Nothing is going in the right direction, you child's studies excepted.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:46 - ID#267298)
I also feel the frustrations you do. However, lets take a deep
breath, maybe cuss a bit, blow off some steam and then
consider a couple things. Is the DOW going higher Tuesday
or lower? No one knows for absolutely sure. The only thing
about markets that I believe to be absolutely sure is
that they will fluctuate. Some years a market will go higher,
some years lower. The same can be said for a number of
consecutive years. The same can be said for different markets,
Asian, European, North American, Commodities, Precious Metals,
etc. In my opinion, the ONLY absolute constant seems to be
CHANGE. Now, lets consider the situation today. North American stock markets have been on an incredible roll for a number of years.
Think about it for a moment, the first time investor who buys into
the DOW tuesday is doing so at a time when Price to Earnings
are at or near record highs, when Book to Share values are at or
near record highs, when yields are at or near record lows.
I could not buy into the Dow now and sleep comfortably at night
because things CHANGE. Gold, on the other hand, is presently
priced ( converted to 1998 dollars ) at about one-half the historical
price over I believe several hundred years. Things CHANGE.
It just seems to me that the Risk/Reward ratio favours Gold.

Go Gold

(Sun May 24 1998 22:48 - ID#412286)
Gunga Din
I admire your faith in the US winner take all system. It is great to see someone have faith and maybe to some extent you are right. I would never underestimate the ability to make a buck resulting in a solution to a problem. Nevertheless, most people are still suffering and the genius of a few techies or millionaires aint gonna change the social consequences of what has been wrought over the last 18 years. Just as the seasons change so will the society become more progressive after the demise of this self indulgent greed era by the elite.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:49 - ID#227238)
ROR: "Socialism is pro family and conservative in nature." ....... Much like the present system of social welfare in this country, no doubt.

BTW, you glossed over the Stalin era in a rather cavalier fashion. More than 20 millions of Russians lost their lives as a result of that "unforseen/unfortunate" event. Does that mean nothing to you?

The 2nd amendment is our only "hole card" against similar events; and the socialist zealots that would bring it to us in this country.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:51 - ID#412286)
I am optimistic about about America's Democratic Socialist Future. Dont Imply I dont have faith in America I do. Better for most not as good for a few. And so it goes.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:53 - ID#43460)
ROR, What is your source of livelihood?
You may lie if you wish.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:53 - ID#411112)
ROR,OK lets try this one,the three men I admire the most

the father the son and the holy ghost

(Sun May 24 1998 22:53 - ID#340459)
it has been a political science debate all day, What good are the captions, without spirit or
implementation in practise of any doctrine..

Good night All...

(Sun May 24 1998 22:54 - ID#27341)
Liberty has been bought
By capitalists

(Sun May 24 1998 22:55 - ID#340459)
@BDog & Bej, Thanks..
Best of Luck in all your endavours.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:56 - ID#412286)
Stalin has nothing to do with real Democratic Socialism. Nazi Germany had private ownership and big private industry so should we condemn private industry due to its exploitation of concentration camp labor under Hitler.Hmm or is it still going on/India/Mexico. Capital uber alles!!Your argument is specious. True Democratic Socialism is Freedom for most.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:58 - ID#227238)
ROR: Given your rendition of the coming socialist nirvana; we probably won't need attorneys anymore. What say? What the hell will you do for a living?

(Sun May 24 1998 22:59 - ID#340459)
@DBog, Thanks for your explanation.

(Sun May 24 1998 22:59 - ID#412286)
My Profession
I work on Wall St which makes me more sensitive to the truth. I used to be a Reaganite. But there is nothing like a convert.

Bully Beef
(Sun May 24 1998 23:00 - ID#259282)
Wow ! I haven't had this much fun since the RCMP used to monitor my poly sci classes.
YEEEE...HAAAA. You know I like all of the good things that come with capitalism but I don't mind helping my neighbours. That makes me an A-hole? Many of you just can't get over these derrogatory name tags that you slap on things you can't comprehend ( and I can't spell ) . My suggestion is to travel a little bit. Come to Canada and see if Social Democracy is that bad. Yes our dollar stinks. Yes I am taxed to the limit. Yes it's hard to get a good job. Yes a lot of people abuse the system. However we really are nice people and you will like it here. We pay people to pick up garbage on the streets. Some of you spit out the word socialism like it was venerial disease or something. I can still be a millionare here if I wanted to work hard. Then I could avoid paying taxes like the truly rich in every country. Take a valium like normal people. Go gold and somebody help Midas. He's having a gold bug crisis. Oh go buy Microsoft tommorrow then.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:02 - ID#412286)
I am also an attorney
but do mostly pro bono work for those who have fallen on difficult economic times through no fault of their own. This ios in addition to my Wall St. connection.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:06 - ID#410215)
..... Seems somehow appropriate to this gathering .....

Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era - the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle Sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it MEANT SOMETHING. Maybe not, in the long run.. but no explanation, no mix of words or music can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant..

History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit, but even without being sure of "history" it seems entirely reasonable to think that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the time - and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened.

My central memory of that time seems to hang on one or five or maybe forty nights - or very early mornings - when I left the Fillmore half-crazy and, instead of going home, aimed the big 650 Lightning across the Bay Bridge a hundred miles an hour wearing L. L. Bean shorts and a Butte sheepherders jacket. Booming through the Treasure Island tunnel at the lights of Oakland and Berkeley and Richmond, not quite sure what turn off to take when I got to the other end ( always stalling at the toll gate, too twisted to find neutral while I fumbled for change ) . But being absolutely certain that no matter which way I went I would come to a place where people were just as high and wild as I was: No doubt about that.

There was madness in any direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, then up the Golden Gate or down 101 to Los Altos or La Honda. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was RIGHT, that we were winning.

And that, I think, was the handle - that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or militaristic sense; we didnt need that. Our energy would simply PREVAIL. There was no point in fighting - on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave.

So now, less than five years later, you can go on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost SEE the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.

HST - 1971

(Sun May 24 1998 23:06 - ID#412286)
The closer you are to the center of the storm or ( lie ) the more radicalised you become.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:06 - ID#27341)
Bully Beef
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Getttttttt Themmmmmmmmmm

(Sun May 24 1998 23:08 - ID#411112)
ROR,I was going to mention a good buddy of mine who is a socialist,and have similar chats,i refer to

him as Berney the attorney,what is it with you guys anyway.....National Lawyers Guild,a bunch of Clinton butt know this one what do you call a lawyer up to his neck in cement......not enough cement

(Sun May 24 1998 23:08 - ID#210235)
My parents' generation had to face Hitler head on. No one guaranteed them that they'd be the big victors and have 30 years of good luck afterwards, either. They somehow managed. The disruption to their personal lives, educations, etc. somehow seemed less important than what had to be done.

My generation, my kids, will have other equally difficult, and even more confusing situations to confront. Did we ever really think it otherwise? If we did, why did we read them all those fairy tales about the monsters and evil players when they were kids? Bet you haven't read any in a few years. Every time someone gets a good thing going, someone else comes along and blows it apart or takes it away. A struggle against formidable odds, always. Has life ever been different?

We knew, you knew, it may become our turn to fight. The fight is just on a new playing field. Well, the "big boys" aren't the only ones who know how to play. Like I said, take heart. The fat lady has been on the Atkins Diet, and she's not piped a note.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:09 - ID#227238)
ROR: You continue to thrust me and many others into a preconceived notion that is egregiously wrong. I DO NOT SUPPORT THE PRESENT SYSTEM AND ITS EXPLOITATION, HERE OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Sheeeesh.

BTW, your last: "True Democratic Socialism is Freedom for most." ..... What do you envision for those in the final percentiles? Indentured servitude? Outright slavery? And who will decide individual freedom? The better, higher minds acting in the public interest? After all, the production of omelets does require the breaking of some eggs. Yes?

A most telling statement. Even superficial consideration of its implications sends shivers down the spine. Your political outlook is interesting. Please continue.

Bully Beef
(Sun May 24 1998 23:11 - ID#259282)
ROR You are tough and you gave it to them and no one got mad. You are a great debator
Have you thought about politics? ( Obviously. ) Intellectuals EH? Why is it the people that would benefit most from the system are most opposed to it? I have to go to bed now but I'm going to read these posts all over again. This was a great disscussion. I just wish I could keep my cool like ROR and the rest of you. Go gold! I like money you know!

(Sun May 24 1998 23:11 - ID#412286)
It is my work at the center of Capitalism which has turned me into a Democratic Socialist. If you saw and heard the arrogance I have you would be to ( even without the merits ) . I have trouble respecting the intelligence of people who are falling for the con game. Until it fails everyone who questions it will be labeled crazy.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:11 - ID#43460)
ROR, thankyou!
For us to understand how a thinking person could become a democratic socialist it would be helpful for you to describe the steps which brought about your ( if I might be so bold as to pidgeonhole you already ) religious conversion to socialism. Did you read their literature, feel proxy guilt for black slavery, get invited to discussion groups or motivational speeches, lose relatives to warfare or starvation, watch any particularly rousing t.v. programs? It would be helpful to find out more details of the emotions involved and try to cut past the mishmash of conflicting ideas but getting an idea of educational background would be helpful, too. And finally, what fulfillment do you feel in your conversion? IMHO

BTW, do you distinguish ( emotionally and intellectually ) the difference between the real actions of Reagan and those of the Democratic 'progressive' leadership in congress during the 1990's? IMHO

(Sun May 24 1998 23:12 - ID#29048)
I for one, refuse to be assimilated into your collective. The bureaucracy necessary to run your utopia will accrue awesome power. Where will be the checks and balances? I believe it was the British Lord Acton who said,"All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". While your motives may be sincere ( are they really? ) , the existence of such a huge and powerful government will attract all sorts of demogogues and social engineers like ants to honey. Russian socialists gave the world Stalin, German socialists gave us Hitler, the Chinese, Mao and on and on .....What makes you think your utopia will be any different? The presence of lawyers? HaHaHa
Incidentally, all of my kids are now trained marksmen. This is one voice of resistance signing off.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:13 - ID#27341)
i to am a convert, congratulations.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:15 - ID#254112)
@Argent: your 22:07
You said:
"...and it makes me want to puke when I realize we may end up like those "enlightened" countries of western Europe so championed by ROR."

Don't worry, dear Argent, you will not need to puke!
There are no preconditions at all for me to see here in USA, which would make me think, the "European model" would fit America.
But I'm also completely convinced that America will not be recognizable in 10 years. So, what you like so much, whatever it is, about America, will be gone.

I would be very curious to know what it is about he USA of today, what you would like to preserve.

Sometimes I get the impression, here at kitco and elsewhere, that Americans become aggressive at "the others", because they have lost their origin, their roots. Long ago.

When I was four years old, that was in May 1945, my father held me up in his arms to look through the window of a cellar of a farm house in a Bavarian village. We had moved from the nearby town to relatives in a village because of the bomb attacks. My father said to me: "Look, and never forget what you see out there."

A tank rolled through the village road. The tank stopped almost in front of the house where we were. A soldier crwaled out of the top of the tank. I saw for the first time in my life a black man. It was an American soldier. Then I didn't know that this black man was the descendant of slaves. There were no black slaves ever in Germany and no descendants of them.

This black American soldier has impressed me very deeply. I took me many many years to realize, that there were other black people in the world than those who wear an American soldier's uniform.

What interest did this black man have to fight in WWII on the side of America and U.K. to help conquer Germany? His ancesters probably were enslaved by Brits, or as those around Farakhan say, by British Jews.

This black soldier was probably a confused person who didn't know for what he was fighting and didn't know what he was doing. But I still think of him. As a kind of a symbol for why I think America will not survive.

I'm working in an international evironment and have a lot of contacts to engineers from India, China, other Asian coutries, African countries. We non-Americans think, when we talk among each other, that Americans are hopeless, completely uncritical, completely naive, and, with exceptions, not to be trusted. That's my work environment.

But I always meet people in America which I like and which surprise me because of their originality.

Albnerich the Dwarf

(Sun May 24 1998 23:15 - ID#222235)
Kitco Bar and Grill is open.

Hope to say hi there.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:22 - ID#227238)
ROR: Your association with Wall St. is unfortunate. Even more unfortunate is the subsequent political extrapolation that includes the rest of us.

If you were once a Reaganite and are now a social democrat, it seems to me that you're, at the least, unable to steer a reasonable course and find the ditches of greater interest. Going from one extreme to the other, as you seem to be doing.

Come on over and join us in the anarchist camp. There's plenty of room here. We dream of utopias as well. 'Cept ours always has a gun in it. ..... ; )

(Sun May 24 1998 23:23 - ID#412286)
which is decried by some sort of freedom loving peoples has almost unerringly throughout history been supported by BIG CAPITAL. Democratic Socialism brings the DEMOCRATIC into the economic sphere which is what the capitalists hate. But without economic democracy political Democracy is a joke which needs Viagra. In our system our peoples biggest strength is the ability of people to sue and do it on a contingency base. Our capitalists always point to Europe in not allowing this situation but they fail to mention European social benefits. You gotta love the truth in advertising but hey we goy Phillip Morris. I jusy know these big business entrepeneurs have our interests at heart. Duh.

Bully Beef
(Sun May 24 1998 23:25 - ID#259282)
This beats T.V. all to heck.
I may sound sarcastic but this is good. Thank you. Thesis ,hypothesis, synthesis. ( and lysthpthis )

(Sun May 24 1998 23:25 - ID#410215)
..... Stuff .....

Bej wrote: ." Platinum is, I fear, like Gold, dead, especially given the financial conditions developing for most countries. Watch out for those that posit otherwise, most that I follow here have agendas that are certainly not on an altruistic nature."

Bej -

Comparing platinum to gold is useless. Your statement above is entirely groundless.

Gods mathematics and the fundamental laws of supply and demand will cause this true commodity to rise way far, way fast.


You must have misunderstood the 295 figure. I hate to say it, but Im still short gold, and Im looking for below 290 to cover. Peeled off about half in modest profits at 297 - 298 ( which more than makes up for the shorts I covered above $310 when I got a little spooked ) I will not trade the long side of gold in the foreseeable future. Unless the trade is needed for balance, I will look to platinum for profits.

Gianni Dioro__A ( EJ ) ID#384350: @ Can you grasp the concept of 10 for 11?

"Spinal Taps" amps went to 11

They did

(Sun May 24 1998 23:26 - ID#342376)
Let's face it, there are problems with both systems. This country ( USA ) is run by the corporations IMHO. Think about NIKE. The CEO makes hundreds of millions a year, while middle management is being laid off to save a few million, and they pay unskilled labor in third world countries a quarter a day to get their hands chopped off in machinery. They sell a "dream" to black youth. You too can become a Micheal Jordan. Yeh, right. About one in 100 million maybe. It's just a different kind of propaganda. I think it was Mozel? who talked about psychic dictatorship? That was a brilliant concept to me. I think an important question to ask is where are people happier? Any thoughts on that?

(Sun May 24 1998 23:30 - ID#27341)
Nice words, keep them coming.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:31 - ID#288260)

The U.S. population, and a few on here, think socialism and communism are the same thing. Break the word down guys , SOCIAL, you are social now and again aren't you? You do enjoy the company of friends and acquaintances? If your not very social what are you? Most likely your not a communist, maybe a capitalist then? Well extreme communism and extreme capitalism turn out to be the very same animal, a few at the top and bunches and bunches at the bottom. Either one is great if your at the top, not so good if your at the bottom, or nowadays even the middle. The top can afford to brain wash you into believing that being social is a bad thing...cause it will hurt them more than anyone else if things change.
The U.S.A. where 1% own 37% of everything,and the highest % of people are under lock and key ( worlds highest ) ! Wish someone would wake up in the U.S., either you have some degree of socialism or you pay to have the poor in jails. EITHER WAY YOU PAY! A relatively peaceful society where the kids don't have a shoot out at the O.K. corral is a good thing guys. Also I hear U.S. consumer purchasing power is down, well the money resides in the huge salaries of corporate execs.,and profits, that are not being re-invested in tangibles like gold, and new products manufactured in North America they are invested in more paper!
I don't think the "ism's" or the "ists" are the problem what we may be seeing is problems with industrial society economics. We don't need the big populations like we did earlier in the industrial revolution. Maybe most of us can become agrarian again, sounds good to me! Rather be plowing than working at McDonalds...

(Sun May 24 1998 23:33 - ID#27341)

(Sun May 24 1998 23:37 - ID#30116)
Good Grief!
Socialists talking about equality for all, except that it needs to be 'managed' ( what's wrong with this picture? ) . Another socialist purports to know what is in another person mind! ( He was a confused BLACK soldier... ) Talk about arrogant, self centered, egotistical.... To know the mental state/thoughts of another human being without even talking to them? :- ) ) Truly, who is running the asylum???

(Sun May 24 1998 23:37 - ID#227238)
Alberich: Your's is an interesting insight.

"Hopeless, uncritical, ...... not to be trusted". Is this a genuine reaction or idle musing around the cocktail table?

Further, are you of the opinion that there exists, anywhere in the world, a culture that is capable of trust without regard for personal considerations. If you do, please so state and I will begin making travel arrangements in the morning.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:38 - ID#412286)
Look into the advantages of Socialism against the oppression we in the US face in reality/ not the happy talk. The principles of economic and political freedom provided to working people vis a vis capital in Democratic Socialism are self eveident. Traditional US conservatism is in fact anti freedom and anti family FOR WHAT IT DOES. No argument except from monied interests.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:38 - ID#250251)
Gold is dead
Could not agree more with your comments about gold as an investment.
Gold is completely dead and buried, I sold my stake a long time ago and invested in microsoft and so far so good.
A financial melt down could occur as many have predicted year after dismal year but as of now I have quite the yellow metal along with the rest of the planet.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:41 - ID#287193)
wonder upon WUNDER.....boys, lets get back to GOLD...
I will even share with the social democrats....:

"The Klondike Gold Rush attracted 100,000 drifters and dreamers. It
was triggered by newspaper coverage during an era of sensationalist
journalism. As Canadian author Pierre Berton writes in his best-selling
classic and winner of the Governor General's Award for Non-Fiction,

"...and the story, written by an ingenious reporter named Beriah Brown,
coined the phrase that flashed round the world: "At 3 o'clock this
morning the steamer Portland from St. Michael for Seattle, passed up the
sound with more than a ton of solid gold on board..." Brown had
reckoned that the weight of the gold dust would sound more dramatic
than its value. His instinct was right. By evening the phrase "a ton of
gold" was being published by newspapers all around the world...

Yes, yes I am with the dreamers. How about you?

(Sun May 24 1998 23:42 - ID#227238)
B. Beef: Don't say a word like "lysthpthis" in this crowd. .... If'n I can't pronounce it I ain't a gonna look it up.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:44 - ID#412286)
crazytimes 23:26
His comments as well as Albereich indicate some people understand. For others I realize it is hard to change from the influence of your programming/propaganda, as a former Reaganite it wasnt easy for me to see the truth either.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:47 - ID#342376)
To all the downtrodden goldbugs....
I can picture one of the Rothschilds right now, reading about how "Gold is dead". He is quiet with a small smirk........

(Sun May 24 1998 23:47 - ID#227238)
Jonboy: Good for you. Bright lad, that.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:47 - ID#410215)
..... Not without the small guy .....

Date: Sun May 24 1998 15:16

OLD GOLD ( fear and greed )

RJ: Isn't the fact that investors have become oblivious to risk a key factor behind gold's lackluster performance? Seems to me that when fear replaces greed as the dominant investor emotion the gold market will be NASB

OG -

You and I have always agreed that the individual investor is the key to a gold bull. With the Dow soaring, interest rates low, and the economy humming along nicely, any rally in gold is doomed to be capped off by producer selling.


(Sun May 24 1998 23:48 - ID#287193)
to the fine @ jonboy...
You know, gold was never alive---but than...: 'It' lasts forever!

Made me this month good money for the daily bread.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:48 - ID#153102)
I never knew ye. Heart to heart. Death to tyrants.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:50 - ID#412286)
This thread
is becoming more progressive. The times they is changin' Go Democratic Socialism Go Gold!

(Sun May 24 1998 23:53 - ID#290118)
Getting by nicely without electricity
Check out this site for propane freezers,
Wood and coal cookstoves - the real old fashioned kind.
and lots more.

(Sun May 24 1998 23:56 - ID#227238)
ROR: At the end of the day, the choices will remain: I can be beholden to a corporation - and was for 20 years - or I can be beholden to your socialist model.

The way I see it, the corporation only wants to make gobs of money. It don't give a hot damn about me. Period. If I choose to work for them, its only for a certain number of hours each week. Then I don't have to put up with their crap.

You on the other hand will want my resources to better others at my expense and not be satisfied with that. You will also expect me to conform to your image of a good citizen. Whether I wish to do so or not. And I am forced to put up with it every moment of every day. Some choice.

Which would you choose? ...... "I know not which course others may take but as for me ....".