Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Mon May 25 1998 00:01 - ID#206358)
BIG CHANGE IN ASIA,...1997_1998!

Last two years was the big shake for ASIA!!From china,they lost DENG!Get back HONGKONG,soon MACAU!!INDONESIA,FILIPHINE,KOREA AND NORTH KOREA both get the new president replacement.THAILAND,INDONESIA,CAMBODIA,INDIA,NEPAL ECT.Change the premiers too !!Think that very soon MALAYSIA,JAPAN,UNION OF MYANMAR will follow the steps too!Wonder the leaders can suit to the sudden change climax.Think that NABBITS should rewrite the new article about "EAST"!
let's see...just thinking ..

(Mon May 25 1998 00:06 - ID#190411)
Wow, now I can understand how you got the way you are.
A hundred miles an hour on a 650 Lightning probably vibrated all of your synapses to puree. I know, I still have two of them.

Go BSA, go gold.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:06 - ID#27341)
Do you expect to pay no taxes at all, the rest of your words are communism, not a social democracy.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:07 - ID#43460)
ROR, some alternate perspectives.
ROR, to be fair I thought I should mention some of my background having observed american socialism, perhaps to give you perspective as to some of its evolutionary flaws. You see, it isn't all about money, capital, et cetera there is a very big control/power agenda. From your perspective you probably don't notice the control issues as you must be pretty convinced you need more and more control to keep all those rowdy conservatives in check. IMHO

Although I'm not ashamed of my job it is one which is so odd and frightening I try not to dwell on it. As I've mentioned before I'm a behavioral scientist. I haven't mentioned before but I work for a private corporation which was chartered under Lyndon Johnson's 'Great Society' excursion into democratic socialism to achieve specific socialist ends as defined by the most 'liberal' and 'progressive' minds of the century. IMHO

My company is under contract with the government to identify certain physically dangerous individuals and as humanely and efficiently as the law allows to remove them from general society, keeping them under wraps until they are changed to fit in again. Not to imprison them, but merely to make them, as Forrest Gump once said, " of them round pegs...". All quite legal and aboveboard and gratefully accepted by most of the parties involved. IMHO

Except for the fact that the entire system is exquisitely unstable and dependant upon the utmost honesty and prudence of all parties involved, so, consistant with human nature, it grows at a nearly exponential rate, devouring money, resources and power. You will recall the span of time between Roosevelt's first level of beaurocratic police power and Johnson's second level was about 30 years. Well, now the interval is more like 2 years and shrinking. And with each added control layer the system becomes more inefficient and less responsive to the citizenry. IMHO

Much of my administrative time is involved in trying to reduce the damge caused by the government beaurocratic overseers and their legalistic socialist blunders ( trying to reduce the rate of the inevitable growth of the system into that of Orwellian thought police ) . So naturally I am thoroughly disgusted with socialism and state control in all its aspects. And I can see that the natural, Darwinian result of even the best intended socialism is an evolution toward a massively repressive and violent system of state control. IMHO

Now, concerning your goldbuggery, you might as well forget it. Under a socialist state there will be no private gold ownership. for as I've mentioned before gold is a proxy for armament and no right minded 'progressive' will allow those of divergent views to stay armed. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 00:07 - ID#153102)
You Wrote: "Traditional US conservatism is in fact anti freedom and anti family FOR WHAT IT DOES. No argument except from monied interests."

It's true. But a rehash of FDR's National Socialist Plan is not the way to more freedom and economic justice. An end to usury by the Government and by Banks and other Corporations is the path to a way of life in which all persons who work have a life of dignity and security.

Bureauracy and standing armies and usurious Bankers ride on the backs of the people at large and over time devour the wealth of a nation. It is usury and not free enterprise which concentrates wealth in the hands of a privileged few.

A government with the aim of distributing wealth more justly according to some platform does so by coercion. It brings the people who have the least scruples about using coercion for political ends to the top. These are the worst sort of people and in the end they make the worst sort of governors. The plan for distribution of wealth will not work if people are allowed to stir up dissent against it. So freedom and forced distribution of wealth cannot exist together for very long. You cannot look at the history of Europe of the last fifty years as a guide. Look at the history of the first fifty years of this century to see the true face and true inevitable course of what you call demoncratic socialism. The old word for it was fascism.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:08 - ID#190411)
Here's hoping that the US can be added to your list.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:11 - ID#373403)
Alan Greenspan, Before the Committee on Agriculture, U.S. House of Representatives May 21,1998
Moreover, we have not yet put in place the strengthening of the international financial architecture that would enable us in the future to place less reliance on the IMF to deal with potential systemic crises. Thus it is better to have the IMF fully equipped if a quick response to a pending crisis is essential.

What do you suppose we can read into the first sentence? Sounds like they came to some conclusion but have yet to implement.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:13 - ID#225273)
gagnrad & preemptive strikes
You wrote: "My company is under contract with the government to identify certain physically dangerous individuals and as humanely and efficiently as the law allows to remove them from general society, keeping them under wraps until they are changed to fit in again. Not to imprison them, but merely to make them, as Forrest Gump once said, " of them round pegs...". All quite legal and aboveboard and gratefully accepted by most of the parties involved. IMHO"

If I understand this correctly, it surely is scary stuff. So that I'm certain of your meaning here, could you elaborate on what type of individuals you target ( if that's the right word ) and by what criterion they are deemed physically dangerous absent any illegal behavior.

Thank you,

The Preacher

Steve in TO__A
(Mon May 25 1998 00:13 - ID#287337)
kitkat - Mutual fund rules in Canada
The rule that mutual funds can redeem unit in kind with shares is an SEC ( federal ) rule in the US.

Unfortunately, securities regulation is a provincial, rather than federal, responsibility in Canada, and while the various provincial regulatory bodies are starting to harmonize their rules, there are many differences.

As far as I know, in Ontario Mutual funds can't redeem units in kind with shares during a "market emergency" but I don't know what the regulations would be in other provinces. I haven't seen such a rule in the OSC regulations, but I may have missed something. I'll try to check it out further.

To find out about the US rule I emailed off to the SEC, and an officer with the agency was kind enough to send me a photocopy of the relevant regulations in the SEC code.

This should stand as a warning to you Canadians, though. Get the rules from your provincial securities commission & check them out. You will also need to find out whether your Canadian mutual fund must obey your local regulations, or whether the regulations of the corporation's home province apply.

- Steve

(Mon May 25 1998 00:14 - ID#342376)
@ Earl
Interesting you made your comment. My father, who worked for Morgan Guaranty Trust, was a brilliant, decent man. When he got to Morgan in the 50's, they spotted his intelligence and wanted to put him into an Executive position very quickly. He declined. He said he wanted to come home and read his beloved books and poetry. If he were an Executive, he felt he could NEVER really leave work. I think he was right. Whenever we got together, he would tell me of all the social injustices in this country. He used to say he was for a Benign Fascism but that he wasn't feeling well. He also felt the president should be someone that has to be brought out from under a table at gunpoint to lead the country. I think he was right on that too. While I can't say I am a socialist, I can see it has good points. Clinton, however, needs to be taken out from under a table at gunpoint and relieved of his duties.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:19 - ID#410215)
..... Two Corrections .....

Read my prior "looking to cover under 290" as: "Looking to cover below 295".


That was not my piece, although I wish it was. That was from "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", by Hunter S. Thompson. The 650 Lightning referred to his days riding with the Hells Angels in the Sixties.

I saw the movie today, which was hilariously dangerous and completely twisted, and they used just portion of that piece. This offended me, so I posted the entire quote here.

I just like the way he writes


(Mon May 25 1998 00:20 - ID#190411)
@ missinglink
Our masters are about to socialise the debt of our partners in the New World Order.
Something that should bring tears of joy to ROR.

On a lighter note, did you see dung beetle's post from last night?
A custom jeweller, and goldsmith such as yourself might consider fabricating lapel pins in the resemblance of the goldbug that he posted.

It would be a badge to be worn by the cogniscenti.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:22 - ID#225273)
themissinglink & the globalists plans
The plans of the globalists fit in with their philosophy. This is true of any group or organization.
The globalists see mankind as maleable, programmable. They see the different peoples of the world as essentially equal in their economic, political, and social abilities.
They believe that by the implementation of certain policies ( reforms ) , if enacted throughout the entire world, then the entire world can cruise through the centuries with "sustainable growth," that is their favorite catch phrase.
Evidently, Greenspan is telling us that these plans are in place, but conditions have not become ripe for their implementation.
My belief is that conditions will never become ripe for their implementation. And that last year, before the Asian crisis ( BAC ) was about as ripe as they will ever see conditions for the implementations of their plans.
Things get uglier from here. They will learn, in the end, that debt is not wealth and progressively higher mutual fund prices are not a divine right.
They will learn that equal opportunity always demonstrates unequal ability. And they will learn several more things which don't come to mind right at the moment.

The Preacher

(Mon May 25 1998 00:23 - ID#373403)
Preacher (gagnrad & preemptive strikes)
Yeah, that caught my attention too. Gagnrad, is this some black project? It seems you should have your hands full dealing with those who commit heinous crimes and get off on technicalities or parole.

Do you have the funds, mandate, and technical ability to delve further into the general population?

Seems like you could spend a major amount on pedophiles alone.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:26 - ID#27341)
That had me worried also, must be a social dem,,,?

(Mon May 25 1998 00:28 - ID#373403)
Goldbug pins
Does it have to be a dung beetle? How about a praying mantis or a catepillar?

(Mon May 25 1998 00:28 - ID#254112)
@ROR: Totalitarianism
I completely agree on this aspect of your arguments.
This is very important to know: Soviet Bolshevism was installed by Wall Street. Trotzky ( real name: Bornstein ) and Lenin ( real name: Ulianoff ) were finaced by Wall Street.

I also believe those sources which report that one faction of Wall Street was heavily engaged in financing the "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", because they saw in Hitler the right man to get the war going which they intended to get.

I also believe, that the "Stalinist Empire", as it emerged from WWII, was designed by the American Government, to establish the bi-polaric architecture which dominated the globe for 40 years. I think, Reagan was a naive, honest player within this bi-polaric system, who didn't recognize, that this architecture had two colums, and when he would destroy one of these two columns, the entire architecture wouldn't hold anymore. The threat of the SU upon Europe was the true reason why America could dominate Europe: by playing the protector.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Mon May 25 1998 00:31 - ID#43460)
preacher, sure, but durn this is getting off topic!
according to the law, '...danger to self or others as demonstrated by overt acts of danger...' But the scarey part is that all of this has gone from local community civil court determination of what is dangerous to an elaborate federalised system with layers upon layers of conflicting regulation driven by the highest 'progressive' motives and paid for by layers upon layers of federal grants. IMHO

"Cavaet humanus sic tofu burritus e toga."
( Beware of the man with a tofu burrito in his toga. )

(Mon May 25 1998 00:38 - ID#153102)
Before WWI, it was widely known in America that modern war is for profit. But, that knowledge was submerged by propaganda and war fever. Now, the military-industrial complex which institutionalizes war for profit is an accepted part of the political landscape. For many years you would hear people say here that war is good for the economy. And they would recite how America did not come out of the Depression until WWII. In fact, the same was true in Germany where Hitler's armaments budget was driving the country to a financial crisis which was submerged by the invasion of Poland. So, there is something to observations that point out the role of industrialists in fomenting war.

But, I think you would add to your understanding a great deal if you would read FA Hayek's Road To Serfdom. There is power in ideas and ideals that money cannot buy.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:40 - ID#190411)
I have the book, although I haven't read it in twenty years. As I recall, he got the BSA because he didn't think he could handle the Harleys of the enchanting group that he was writing about.
Even now, most old-type Harley guys will not completely denigrate British bikes.
For ROR, why don't you read a rather obscure book: "Whatever Happened To the British Motorcycle Industry?" by Bert Hopwood. It shows a great deal of unintended consequences of your Democratiche Socialismus. Also it is informative on the destruction of manufacturing caused, in large part, by currency devaluation.---No gold-no stabilty.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:41 - ID#225273)
My concern is that certain people will be targeted for this program because of political or religious beliefs that are out of favor with the government.

Let's take the abortion issue, for instance. It is one thing to lawfully oppose the practice. It is another thing to violently and unlawfully oppose the practice.
If I understand the current laws concerning opposition to abortion, the fear of violent and unlawful opposition has been used to restrict lawful opposition.

It is one thing to say: "Mr. X advocates Y; to bring this about he has advocated bombing federal buildings and kidnapping government workers. Therefore we deem him potentially dangerous."

And it's a totally different thing to say: "Mr. X advocates Y. This could lead others to bomb federal buildings and kidnap government workers. Therefore we deem him potentially dangerous."

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

The Preacher

(Mon May 25 1998 00:42 - ID#225273)
Can anyone tell me what gold has done tonight? My regular night links aren't working.

The Preacher

(Mon May 25 1998 00:42 - ID#285121)
Korea is having a sinking spell !
Down 4.83% to 338

(Mon May 25 1998 00:46 - ID#43460)
themissinglink, re me and my big mouth!
Geez, what do you think they do with the drunks who get frostbite sleeping under bridges and the schizophrenics who beat up their parents with a hammer? They can't put them in jail or they end up fighting with the other prisoners. And the black project funds we use are very mundane social service contracts, medicaire, medicaide, social security et cetera. I just mentioned what they were buying and left off all the usual propaganda words that give us warm fuzzy feelings when we hear them. IMHO

Not the general least yet...but that will come just as surely as The People of Minnissota v. Kevorkian followed Roe v. Wade unless the trend toward socialist ideology is stopped. The whole point in bringing it up was to enlighten folks like ROR that there just may be another darker side to the whole socialist movement. IMHO

But before I got in this business and saw just how convoluted and deeply screwed up are all the governemt agencies and financing I never would have thought of using gold to diversify my portfolio. IMHO

Goodnight all. Golden dreams!

(Mon May 25 1998 00:48 - ID#242303)
badly burnt...but
Nasdaq- Has the bearish 'head and shoulders' configuration.
S & P 500- 6+ times book value. yield 1.6%
90 day instrument yield 4.5-5.0%

Are we ALMOST there ! I thought so a month ago and got badly burnt on some S & P puts. But am tempted to dip in again with whatever isn't tied up in Gold.

Of course I'm not too sure that the correction will help Golg much in the long term. We will have to look at it as our Y2K insurance.


John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 00:54 - ID#211105)
My TOCOM URL says that May futures are 1303 ( plus 3 yen ) . By my figuring this works out to 1303 X 32 grams divided by 137.5 yen to the dollar equals 303.2 for the futures. Let me know if you agree.

(Mon May 25 1998 00:55 - ID#373403)
"Not the general least yet...but that will come just as surely as The People of Minnissota v.Kevorkian followed Roe v. Wade unless the trend toward socialist ideology is stopped."

Are you prepared to stand up and stop them should it go in this direction and you see your program being used for political purpose?

(Mon May 25 1998 00:58 - ID#342376)
@ Wizened
I swore off S&P puts a few months ago, but am having the urge again. Perhaps I should just go to a meeting and share my desire to put with my fellow Putoholics.

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 01:02 - ID#211105)
This is a Reuters abstract from earlier this evening. Indicates that spot is down 70 cents which seems to be normal for Australia ( for some reason I don't understand ) .

Reuters, Sunday, May 24, 1998 at 22:22
Snapshot 12.00 p.m. 0200 GMT ) -----------------
Gold NY 299.85 Asia 299.20
The big diversified miners were steady to slightly higher, while oil stocks gained ground and gold stocks slipped back as the shares tracked commodity prices. BHP ( AUS:BHP ) improved 5.8 cents to A$13.70, while Woodside Petroleum ( AUS:WPL ) climbed eight to A$9.28 and Normandy Mining
AUS:NDY ) lost four cents to A$1.54. MIM Holdings ( AUS:MIM ) was one cent stronger at 90 cetns.

Lurker 700__A
(Mon May 25 1998 01:04 - ID#319326)
It is the Lord who hold the POG down!
PPT or Big Boys do not want POG lower than $320, but are manipulated by the spirit of God. See that in the past 20 years, POG dipped below $300 for only few days, that proved they did not want lower POG to deflat the world economy!
But this time God forced POG below $300 for many months now, Why?
Because there is a Real Big World Crise ahead and there are many Poor Brothers who can not afford and buy enough gold for passing over this Coming Crise.
So, God will continue push POG lower, until all poor brothers are ready.
Show your Patience and Philadelphia, pal!

(Mon May 25 1998 01:09 - ID#43460)
themissinglink, really the real last post for the night.
Of course. Why do you think I'd go out on a limb and risk Bart cutting me off to keep on this subject tonight. But the first step is to start pointing people to the information they need to self educate on the problem. And to get them to wondering about the power they abrogate when they agree to socialism. Here is a URL giving background on the general subject of corruption of a medical establishment by a socialist government. If you read it you will be impressed by the similarity between some of the Nazi euthanasia forms and present day medicaire and medicaide insurance forms. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 01:11 - ID#153102)
Watching the POG seems like misplaced energy to me. Others may enough excess energy to spend on it, but, unfortunately or not, I don't have much.

The reason it seems misplaced energy is because it may prevent a participant from properly weighing risk. We are accustomed to relatively limited risk scenarios because there are many constants in the financial and economic and political environment that we take for granted. There has been a long period of relative stability which lulls one into complacency. But I see signs.

The US is going down soon under a Wave of Debt & Usurious Interest, public and private. Y2K may precipitate it. The loss of reserve currency status for $US greenback may precipitate it. Derivatives runaway may precipitate it. But it is coming as sure as night follows day. Think for a moment about the fact there is no difference whatsoever between Food Stamp Legal Tender and FRN Legal Tender. There is no difference whatsoever between EBT ( electronic benefits transfer ) and EFT ( electronic funds transfer ) . The fact is that all of our financial assets which were supposed to store wealth are fraudulent. Years and years of labor have been stolen by the demoncratic socialist regime established by FDR. Any labor not stored in a tangible asset is not safe. Any labor stored in a derivative of Debt is, well, just Debt.

Got Gold ?

(Mon May 25 1998 01:15 - ID#27341)
Nazi euthanasia

(Mon May 25 1998 01:19 - ID#225273)
John_B & Lurker 700
John_B, thank you very much.

Lurker700, I don't know if you are joking around or not. If not, since God normally works through means, although sometimes without means and sometimes in spite of means, would you care to take a guess at what means He has used to keep the POG below 300?

The Preacher

(Mon May 25 1998 01:21 - ID#227238)
Lurker 700: Faith and logic as compelling as yours should not remain unrewarded.

(Mon May 25 1998 01:23 - ID#153102)
I appreciate your posting.
Not speaking to your specific "program", but the abuse of power by social service and police agencies is widespread. The specifics boil the blood.

(Mon May 25 1998 01:27 - ID#153102)
When do you think 'stralians will grow up ?

dung beetle
(Mon May 25 1998 01:28 - ID#272234)
Here ya go ERLE...

(Mon May 25 1998 01:32 - ID#27341)

(Mon May 25 1998 01:39 - ID#153102)
I only asked because I heard they collected your weapons recently and the 'Stralians I encounter seem complely oblivious to the fact the demoncratic socialist form of government has eventally turned into dictatorship in every place it has existed.

(Mon May 25 1998 01:50 - ID#27341)
The best way i can answer your question is, you answered the question?

(Mon May 25 1998 02:02 - ID#153102)
@I just wonder
OK, it's July of the Year 2000. The stock market is closed for reasons that will become clear in a moment. Electric power is only available in certain sections of the country. People from the sections without power have been uprooted and moved to camps and into people's houses in the areas that do have power. Telephone use is restricted to essential calls. Most residential phone service has no dialtone. The internet is, of course, not there. Due to the collapse of the worlwide banking system, a decree went forth that retailers must accept EBT. There is a federal benefit category for every need. Applicants go to the FEMA office to have benefits approved and added to their account. Cash is in short supply. Withdrawals from accounts from the banks that are open and can find your account are strictly limited by FEMA decree. A dusk to dawn curfew is in effect nationwide. Fuel can only be purchased by EBT. Only essential travel needs are rationed fuel by FEMA. There is an air of crisis concerning the planting and harvesting of crops.

The President and Congress jointly announce that because of the displacement of voters from their voting districts, no election will be held in 2000. But, they expect an election will be held in 2004 when, hopefully, life in the country will have returned to normal and confidence is restored.

What will happen ?

(Mon May 25 1998 02:09 - ID#410215)
..... Electric Profundities .....

( A good name for a 60's rock band )


The last post about the 650 Lightning got me thinking on another piece by Hunter Thompson about electricity. I am cursed by finding an analogy in almost everything; but this seems as good an analogy of these markets as any I can think of - and in keeping with my warnings about speculation this morning.

It is not hard to see where some influence in my own writing may be found.


Electricity - They Laughed at Thomas Edison

It has been raining a lot recently. Quick thunderstorms and flash floods. Lightning at night and fear in the afternoon. People are worried about electricity.

Nobody feels safe. Fires burst out on dry hillsides, raging out of control, while dope fiends dance in the rancid smoke and animals gnaw each other. Foreigners are everywhere, carrying pistols and bags of money. There are rumors about murder and treachery and women with no pulse. Crime is rampant and even children are loosing their will to live.

The phones go dead and power lines collapse, whole families plunged into darkness with no warning at all. People who used to be in charge walk around wall-eyed, with their hair standing straight up on end, looking like they work for Don King, and babbling distractedly about their hearts humming like stun guns and trying to leap out of their bodies like animals trapped in bags.

People get very conscience of electricity when it goes sideways and starts to act erratic. Erie blackouts, hissing, and strange shocks from the toilet bowl, terrifying power surges that make light bulbs explode and fry computer circuits that are not even plugged in. The air crackles around your head and you take a jolt every time you touch yourself. Your lawyer burns all the hair off his body when he picks up the cordless phone to dial 911.

Nobody can handle electricity gone amok. It is too powerful Ben Franklin was never able to lock a door again after the day lightning came down his kite string and fused that key to his thumb. They called it a great discovery and they called him a great scientist; but, in fact, he bawled like a baby for the rest of his life every time he smelled rain in the air.

I find myself jerking instinctively into the classic self-defense stance of a professional wire wizard every time I hear rain on the roof. That is an atavistic tic that I picked up many years ago in my all-night advanced intelligence electronics class at Scott AFB, on the outskirts of East St. Louis - where I also learned about pawnshops, oscillators, and full bore lying as a natural way of life.

The stance was the first thing we learned, and we learned it again every day for a long, crazy year. It is as basic to working with serious electricity as holding your breath is to working underwater

Lock one hand behind you back before you touch anything full of dissatisfied voltage - even a failed light bulb - because you will almost certainly die if you dont.

Electricity is neutral. It doesnt want to kill you, but it will if you give it a chance. Electricity wants to go home, and find a quick way to get there - and it will.

Electricity is always homesick. It is lonely, But it is also lazy. It is like a hillbilly with a shotgun and a jug of whiskey gone mad for revenge on some enemy - a fatal attraction, for sure - but he wont go much out of his way to chase the bugger down if ambush looks a lot easier.

Why prowl around and make a spectacle of yourself when you can lie in wait under some darkened bridge and swill whiskey like a troll full of hate until your victim appears - drunk and careless and right on schedule - so close that you that you almost feel embarrassed about pulling the trigger.

That is how electricity likes to work. It has no feelings except loneliness, laziness, and a hatred of anything that acts like resistance. Like a wharf rat with his back to the wall - it wont fight unless it has to, but then it will fight to the death.

Electricity is the same way: it will kill anything that gets in its way once it thinks it sees a way to get home quick.. Zaaaappp Right though your finger and through your heart and your chest cavity and down the other side.

Anything that gives it an escape route. Anything - iron, wire, water, flesh, ganglia - that will take it where it must go, with the efficiency of gravity or the imperative of salmon swimming upriver. And it wants the shortest route - which is not around a corner and through a muscle mass in the middle of your back, but it will go that way if it has to.

Some people had to have their loose hand strapped behind them in a hammerlock with rubber cords, just to keep their hearts from exploding and their neck nerves from being fried like long blond hairs in a meat fire when the voltage went through. But sooner or later they learned. We all did, one way or another.

One night - perhaps out of boredom or some restless angst about the fate of Caryl Chessmen or maybe Christine Keeler - I connected a 50,000 volt RF transformer to one end of the thin aluminum strap on the Formica workbench that ran around three sides of the big classroom; and then I grounded the strap to a deep-set screw in the wall socket.

Severe shocks resulted when the generator jumped its limiter and began cranking out massive jolts and surges of RF voltage. A 50,000 volt shock ran through my stomach, just below my naval, burning a long, thin hole that I can still pull a string of dental floss through on wet nights.

It was horrible, and still is, but it was also a massive breakthrough; and I will never forget the warped joy I felt when the first surge of electricity went through them. They squawked at each other like chickens.

My own pain was nothing compared to the elation of knowing that I had just made an unspeakably powerful new friend - an invisible weapon that could turn warriors and wizards into newts, and cause them to weep.

HST - 1990


After reading this again, I see how gold, or silver, or platinum, or any investment could be substituted for "electricity" in the above. The market is mindless and entirely unassuming. It will go where it will, with, or without, any one of us. In keeping with the focus of risk with which I started this day, I thought this piece would give another view; perhaps a peripheral flash that catches the light in just the right way to see a reflected truth in the calm waters of the pond before some damn coy fish wrecks the whole serenity thing by breaking to surface for some slimy bug. The coy eats, and my vision is ruined. Some deal. Some serenity. Some fish.


(Mon May 25 1998 02:10 - ID#27341)
Given the opportunity, what type of system to run a country would like??

(Mon May 25 1998 02:12 - ID#27341)
sorry-would you like.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:14 - ID#316193)
For Silicone Investor Watchers
The response count, last time I looked...

Golden Eagle Int. ( MINE ) .....3,233

How I Spent MINE Money..........37

(Mon May 25 1998 02:18 - ID#287186)
It must be the phase of the moon!
Socialists night out and all that.
A three day weekend and conversation here really takes some interesting turns. I couldn't recognize the place at first! Some of the inmates from the other discussion group must have snuck over here. Can't figure out how that could have happened. Maybe it was the alignment of the planets.
I though I was the only nut around here.
Maybe everyone has been sippin too much GOLDEN or Swamp Boy's shine.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:18 - ID#27341)
South Korea down 6.70%

(Mon May 25 1998 02:20 - ID#340344)
Oh, Hunter S Thompson. The only HST I could think of was Harry S Truman,
and he didn't write much in 1971. ( La Honda looks the same as it did
back then. However, HST wouldn't like driving around there, these days.
Lovely, winding, deadly road, but a half-dozen traffic lights, all courtesy of El Nino.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:26 - ID#410215)
..... Ziva is BAAAAaaack .....

On K2 she asserts that gold will rise to $320 in the face of full scale nuclear war. The Dow may only correct 5% though.

Either she is completely hysterical and irrational or she is incredibly naive. There is no in between.


(Mon May 25 1998 02:30 - ID#153102)
None. I oppose running societies, people, and countries with systems or governments. There is no need for any Public Law and all Public Law infringes on somebody's freedom of conscience, liberty, or property. All you need for security of rights is a national defense of units of armed citizen soldiers organized and commanded at the local level and courts of justice for adjudicating disputes and torts and crimes according to the rules of the common law. Government is not needed even to issue money and, in fact, whenever it gets its hands on the power makes a botch of it.

Lurker 700__A
(Mon May 25 1998 02:30 - ID#319327)
Preacher, PPT are vexed by spirits
Last Aug to Oct, POG is bouncing above $320 for three months. They wanted to push POG up slowly as usual as so many past No-Inflation-Ahead years.
But the Vexing Winds ( spirits ) came from SEAsia are so strong that they have no choice but push POG down below $300.
PPT or Big Boys are men not God, are forced by spirits.
If POG Gone up at that Oct. Big Financial Crisis, it will triger uncontrollable INFLATION!
So, they have to spend much reserved gold to hold POG down.
In order to teach people that gold is useless in Crisis, they push POG even below production cost! So, we survived INFLATION winds so far.
Now, comes the other Vexing Wind, the DEFLATION.
The true power of gold is when it is low.
Low POG implies No-Inflation-Ahead, then no one want to stock up commodity, then commodities price go lower. This will drag POG lower.
This is the MEANS of how God forces PPT deplete gold reserve into the hands of Poor Brothers.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:39 - ID#153102)
Yours makes as much sense to me as Veneroso's explanation.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:41 - ID#250121)
bits and bobs

Thanks for your Y2K post on K2.
Food for thought indeed. Only thing I'd like to add is that, of course, all eyes will be on Nude Sealand, not Stralia to check the first effect. NZ sees the Y2K first, well except for some fly spec islands... Don't forget, until the Stralian gobmint starts adding gold to its reserves, Stralia doesn't deserve her first two letters.


that ain't ziva on K2. just another imposter, Sure have to stoop low to pretend to be such a flake, can't imagine why anyone would want to imposter a nutter.

Etymology of "nutter" anyone? It's interesting, well to me anyway, and to students of history and society.


(Mon May 25 1998 02:46 - ID#153102)
It would be prudent to think this Y2K thing through.
They ain't gonna leave nobody alone.
They are gonna' FEMA the country and the countryside.
I'm thinkin' if Moses don't show up soon, I'm going on without him.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:50 - ID#27341)
i agree governments do make a botch of it,take ours if you like,unfortunatly the missing link is truth,and inderpendant thought,if money is concentrated in to few hands ,any system can become a dictatorship.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:52 - ID#393125)
Socialism Canadian Style

1. Promise free health care. Raise taxes.

2. Hire thousands to oversee healthcare. Raise taxes.

3. Install Ministry of Multiculturalism to buy votes in target areas which costs 2 to 3 billion/year. Raise taxes.

4. Impose bilingualism on 75% of population, no vote allowed. Cost another 2-3 bil/year. Raise taxes.

5. Not enough money because size of civil service has doubled in the 10 years from 1970 to 1981. Keep raising taxes.

6. Still not enough $. Start printing more. Dollar devalues.

7. Get more $ by cutting military.

8. People upset, vote in Conservative gov't who proceeds to impose a national Goods and Services sales Tax.

9. Hire thousands of civil servants to collect GST.

10.Get CB to sell off gold reserves.

11.Ontario Socialist NDP gov't double PROVINCIAL debt to 90 billion in just ONE term. Installs gov't casinos.

12.Tell already hard working private sector workers they have to compete as this is a new global economy.

13.Now husband and wife both have to work for same standard of living as our parents, see point 14.

14.So now Liberal ( socialist ) Federal gov't talking about national child care ( because of point 13 ) .

15.Won't be enough $. I wonder if they will.....raise taxes?

16.Half a trillion $ debt....30 million people, aging population.

Canada could probably survive in Europe where the other countries are socialist. In reality Canadian economy is a pice of driftwood floating in and out on the American economic tide. What can you do when even the Federal Conservative gov't is more left than the US Democrats. I think our gov'ts have to learn to compete also and make the hard decisions instead of being controlled by countless special interest groups ( also funded by our tax $ ) .

Ontario provincial conservatives making some headway. Too little, too late? Gold is a must as I think Canadian dollar will be a sitting duck soon. Just my humble opinion.

(Mon May 25 1998 02:53 - ID#250121)
Assaying Kits, NZ is a loooooong way away. And noone will take that away, eh mo?
I thought I was onto an assaying kit from a local jewellers' supplier. I thought I ordered one a week or so again. Now find that noone in the US will export same ( touchy pilots don't like the idea of flying through the aether with vials of aqua regia aboard, can't think why ) and they have to get kits direct from UK. The supplier has been waiting fro more orders to make the airfreight affordable, apparantly British Pilots are made of sterner stuff than merkan ones, but we all knew that anyway. If no more orders forthcoming, they'll have to despatch my kit by sea! I expect a wait of several weeks/months

Being a gold bug means one must be patient, yes?


Big Time Tom
(Mon May 25 1998 02:56 - ID#212320)
Preacher: The following seems pretty accurate overnight and shows the price of gold at $299.20/70


(Mon May 25 1998 02:59 - ID#153102)
Usury is the common denominator whenever wealth concentrates in the hands of the privileged few whatever the local name for the politics might be.

Big Time Tom
(Mon May 25 1998 02:59 - ID#212320)
POG, one more time
It just went up to $299.60/10.


(Mon May 25 1998 03:02 - ID#27341)
and there will always be some form of usury

(Mon May 25 1998 03:10 - ID#153102)
Yeah ? Well, there will always be some form of murder, too. That doesn't mean to me that there should be no law forbidding it and no punishment of violators who are convicted. Usury is prohibited in the common law. It was simple. The law would not collect a debt of usury.

(Mon May 25 1998 03:11 - ID#286224)
@Leland : Is MINE being hyped at SI ?
DO you have the link/URL?


John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 03:17 - ID#24135)
Socialists !! Look Out ! Grab your wallets !
To all ..
I go to sleep for a little and look what happens ..
I think all citizens should have the right to OPT
out of social programs and many Government activities.
For example .. not pay for social security and nor
Medicare nor public school ( through tax deductions )
and not be entitled to benefit.
Another example .. the JD case against Gates .. will
cost the taxpayers a fortune. IF YOU DISAGREE with
adventure .. you should have the right to insulate
yourself from all associated costs.
Socialists should pay for and benefit solely from
the programs they like so much.
Should Socialists disagree with this, and insist that
they should be able to steal your money whenever they
wish, you should either leave the country or kill them.
I decided to leave. Too many to kill, and I was afraid
I'd get into a lot of trouble.

(Mon May 25 1998 03:17 - ID#27341)
letting people starve should be prohibited also

(Mon May 25 1998 03:24 - ID#286224)
@ John Disney
Is gold trading there today?

How much $$$ ?

(Mon May 25 1998 03:27 - ID#31876)
There is registration and fee for the S.I. thread, this may
get you in as a visitor...

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 03:30 - ID#24135)
Some Stralians love slogans..
For Downunder ..
When I was in australia I was unable to get
any help at all for maintenance or around
the house for reasonable costs except from
students or migrants ) . I would quite happily
let people that refuse to work when work is
available Starve.. In fact I would dance with

(Mon May 25 1998 03:31 - ID#27341)
John Disney
Yes, the proplem has been solved that way before,and now, gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about the potencial of the human race.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 03:32 - ID#384350)
Why don't those people just get credit cards, then they could eat all they wanted?
Let's say there were 11 families in a community, but only enough food to sustain 10 of these families. Well the poorest of these 11 families gets nothing to eat.

So some interlektural gets the idea to make the other 10 families cough up some money to give to the 11th family so that they can buy food.

Now, the poorest family is no longer poor, and they start using the money to bid up the price of food. However, because there is only enough food to sustain 10 families, there will still be a food shortage, food will be much more expensive, and some ( at least one ) families are going to starve anyway.

The same example works with housing as well. These half-brained politicians who like to give out rent supplements without encouraging the development of more housing are just making rents higher for those who aren't part of the system.

(Mon May 25 1998 03:32 - ID#286224)
@leland: Nope could't get in. Thanks anyway.

What are they saying about MINE and how big is the hype?

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 03:44 - ID#24135)
I admired your work in space so much ...
For Spock ..
Dissapointed in you. Not only do I find out that you
are a sugar selling socialist, but you are still
The South African Mines are the LOWEST average cost
mines in the world . Moreover they have the cheapest
most easily expoited reserves.
To know this, you must have a reasonble working
knowledge of arithmatic. The fact that you are a
socialist explains a lot since they are generally
very poor with numbers. I would also guess that you
are a left over Anti Apartheid demonstrator ( reference
your bias and unwillingness to accept facts about RSA
mines ) .

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 03:52 - ID#24135)
You dont speak for the Human race ..
downunder ..
I think the Individuals in the human race are
equipped to and should take care of themselves
and their families and friends.
They should voluntarily participate in the
community if they wish but not be coerced to
do so.
Your do good sanctimonious meddling is destroying
individual effort as well as the family structure.
Your "caring" attitude is false and self serving.
I really dislike that kind of cr@p.

(Mon May 25 1998 03:55 - ID#31876)
On Friday, MINE jumped from $.14 to $.33, or 144%, as reported
by Vronsky. This was apparently due to company press release..

Nearly 9 million shares traded Friday. Naturally, this created
a frenzy on the S.I. thread. The stock is not being "hyped".
The participants seem to be awestruck by the press release.
After you read, you'll see why.

(Mon May 25 1998 03:59 - ID#284255)
Indian Ocean Basin Becoming Focus of International System
Global Intelligence Update

For the past six months, the Global Intelligence Update has been following
events in two countries in particular: Iran and Indonesia. In the past
couple of months we have become increasingly concerned with the Indian
subcontinent as well. Although these events appear to be, and indeed are,
unconnected, their effects are not. We invite you to sit down with a map
and trace the maritime consequences of these events. From the Straits of
Hormuz, through the Indian Ocean, into the Straits of Malacca past
Singapore--these are the choke points through which Asia's oil supply flows
and they are now in jeopardy.

In recent months, the Iranian navy has been conducting sophisticated and
successful exercises combining surface and submarine units. Whatever their
intentions, the Iranians have clearly demonstrated their ability to
jeopardize the movement of oil tankers through the Straits of Hormuz. It
is likely that the United States can still clear a path through the Straits
should the Iranians wish to interdict the flow of oil. However only the
United States has that ability. Moreover a probability is not a certainty.
The Iranians may well be able to impose a substantial cost on U.S. attempts
at sea lane control. Iranian intentions are unclear. Neither the internal
political situation nor the geopolitical reality permits clarity. Last
week, the Iranian army conducted large-scale exercises in southwestern
Iran. Whether the motive for these exercises was simply part of the normal
training cycle, a dress rehearsal for an attack on southern Iraq or an
attempt to keep regular army forces--whom we assume are pro-Khatami--out of
the cities, is not clear to us. What is clear is that Iranian military
power is growing while Iranian political stability is in doubt--an
explosive combination.

Everyone has focused on the Indian government's decision to test nuclear
devices. We regard this as far less important than the fact that the new
nationalist government has substantial and growing conventional military
assets at its disposal. Last month, the Indian government established an
entirely new fleet command in the Bay of Bengal. The Indian government's
ability to project naval power into the Indian Ocean has grown dramatically
in recent years. The new nationalist government appears to be signaling
the world that it is prepared to use that power if the need arises. While
the United States is pressuring India on nuclear testing, it is ignoring a
much more critical set of questions: what does India intend to do with its
naval power? The flow of oil tankers passing from the Straits of Hormuz to
the Straits of Malacca all pass through waters that are increasingly
patrolled by Indian warships.

Then, of course, President Suharto has resigned, settling absolutely
nothing. President Habibe is a change of personality at the top, but the
main personalities that were enriched and empowered under Suharto's reign
continue to control the country. The core issue is whether this group will
be deposed and disposed of--whether we are facing another Iran. There is
an obvious difference between the Shah's Iran and Suharto's Indonesia.
There is no Khomeni in Indonesia. That is to say, there is no central
focus for the anti-Suharto rebellion that is both charismatic and morally
defensible. This increases the possibility for the Suharto group to
survive, but it also increases the possibility for absolute chaos. The
Suharto group has lost its legitimacy but there is no single group that is
its logical successor. The result could be massive instability, which is
what we think is the most likely outcome. The counter to stability is
nationalism. Suharto and Sukarno, the two poles of Indonesian history,
were both claimants to the nationalist banner. Today, nationalism lies in
the gutter. Habibe will undoubtedly try to pick it up, as will others.
And this is what makes the situation dangerous. The only real alternative
to chaos is Indonesian nationalism which, in the extreme form required to
draw the country together and legitimize the coming repression, is
inherently xenophobic, certainly confrontational, and potentially
expansionary. Imagine, if you will, Sukarnoism coupled with anti-Chinese
racism for a sense of the future.

Thus, Iran, India and Indonesia all pose a dramatic challenge to the
international system as a whole. If the Straits of Hormuz, the Indian
Ocean or the Straits of Malacca ( and Lombok ) are closed, or even become
insecure, the ability of Asia, especially Japan, to access the oil required
to run its economy will be jeopardized. Japan imports 100 percent of its
oil--some from Indonesia, most from the Persian Gulf. If any of those
waterways become inaccessible for any reason, Japan, already in a long-term
depression, would find itself in a catastrophic position.

There are now three nations, any one of which could disrupt the flow of oil
to Asia if it chose. None is motivated to do so at this moment, but it is
not difficult to imagine circumstances under which any one of them might
choose to do so. At this moment, there is only one power that would be
able to secure the sea lanes from the Persian Gulf past Singapore: the
United States. There is no doubt in our minds that the U.S. could readily
deal with sea lane closures in any one place. However, given the imprudent
draw down of naval forces by the Clinton administration, it is far from
clear that the United States Navy could secure the Indian Ocean while
simultaneously carrying out its missions elsewhere in the world.

We are now entering an extremely dangerous period. Economic forces have
created desperation in strategic regions. Historically low oil prices have
made Persian Gulf politics more unpredictable than usual. The collapse of
the Asian economic miracle has cast Indonesia free from the stabilizing
influence of prosperous trade relations. India, long neglected by the
United States, has few reasons to play a stabilizing role.

The only effective counterweight is the United States. But the truth of
the matter is that the United States is not the main beneficiary of its
Indian Ocean patrol-- Japan is. And as Japan is trying to export its way
out of its economic problems, friction between the United States and Japan
is bound to increase. As the Indian Ocean basin destabilizes, the key
question is this: what rational justification is there for American
exertion on behalf of Asia. There are certainly answers to this question,
but not necessarily very clear and obvious ones.

All of this is a bit off in the future. Iran is not about to close the
Straits. It is merely demonstrating that it could if it wished. India is
not about to start interdicting tankers on the high seas, although given
the current shrill anti-Indian rhetoric, they may at least raise that
specter. And Indonesia has not yet advanced to the point of international
adventurism in the Sukarno tradition, but no reasonable person could simply
discount this possibility.

The Indian Ocean Basin, from Hormuz to Malacca, is about to become the
centerpiece of the international system. Iran, India and Indonesia are
going to be the poles of the region. And the United States does not have
good relations with any but the weakest and least stable. We cannot help
but believe that Japan is watching this evolution carefully and thinking
about its meaning and its response. Note that we remain convinced that
Japan, and not China, will be the wildcard of the international system in
the first decade of the 21st Century.

(Mon May 25 1998 04:11 - ID#270447)
Your 21:58 post was right on. The "Democratic Socialists" ( there's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one ) never do the dirty work of extortion, theft of private propery, confiscation of private property via taxation, etc.; they use the government to do their dirty work. Unfortunately, the US has been moving toward their twisted concept of 'justice and equality' since FDR's New Deal. If these idiots would look closely at the problems that are causing people to turn to gold as a store of value they would realize the root of the problem lies with the socialist programs begun by FDR and greatly accelerated by LBJ.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 04:11 - ID#24135)
All Quiet Southern Front
For swp1.
Not much happening.. spot about 300.
Gold index off 9. London not open yet.
You're watching very closely .. ??
What are you expecting ??

(Mon May 25 1998 04:26 - ID#270447)
ROR & "Democratic Socialism"
What you don't know about capitalism and its workings is scary. Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, I suggest you read Milton Friedman's 'Free to Choose' and Friedrich von Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom'. Particularly The Road to Serfdom, its the road you and your philosophy are on. May you and it fail a'la socialist Germany, USSR, and everywhere else socialism has been billed as the "people's" only hope for economic justice. Socialism has spawned the world's most brutal dictators in the name of "the people".

Europe doesn't have any dictators but whatever country practices socialism will ultimately fail, just as it is doing in the Scandinavian countries now. It is why the Euro is doomed. Too many weak sisters in the alliance. You can't have the unequal productivity of France's proposed 32 hour work week with the work ethic of Germany and expect a common currency to last for any period of time. Without substantial gold backing, the Euro will be a joke within 2 years. Too many unproductive weak sisters in the alliance with bloated labor costs and welfare programs that provide a huge incentive not to work.

Paul Gold__A
(Mon May 25 1998 04:34 - ID#21484)
Mocatta Goldwatch Weekly
The latest ( 25 May ) ABSA Mocatta Goldwatch Weekly report is now available at

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 04:43 - ID#24135)
Right On ..
Drifter ..
Where have you been all my life ??

(Mon May 25 1998 04:50 - ID#284255)
Under close watch
WASHINGTON - THE MASTERS of Disaster at the White House are strangely silent.

The self-described ``scandalmeisters'' - the presidential spin-doctors - usually are quick to deflect any allegations of wrongdoing against U.S. President Bill Clinton.

But this time they are letting him fly solo amid charges that American foreign policy was influenced by campaign donations from the Chinese military.

(Mon May 25 1998 04:57 - ID#284255)

Critical Infrastructure: New Commission

On May 22, President Clinton created the Critical Infrastructure Assurance Office. Jeffrey Hunker will run it.

Just what we need: an organization to save the nation from total disaster -- acronym, CIAO. Yes, my friends, the Italian word for "goodbye."

And it's headed by a bureaucrat named Hunker.

Prior to his government service, Dr. Hunker was employed by the investment firm known as Kidder.

As Dave Barry says, I am not making this up.
* * * * * * *

United States Department Of Commerce
Critical Infrastructure Assurance Office
PO Box 46258
Washington, DC 20050-6258

May 22, 1998
For Immediate Release

Secretary Daley Appoints Deputy as Director for National Program To Protect the Nation Against Physical and Cyber Threats

WASHINGTON, DC: Following President Clinton's signing of a new policy designed to protect the nation's critical infrastructures from physical and cyber threats, Secretary of Commerce William Daley named Jeffrey A. Hunker to serve as Director of the national Critical Infrastructure Assurance Office ( CIAO ) . Mr. Hunker and his staff will bring together an integrated national plan to protect the nation's vital systems: telecommunications, transportation, energy, banking and finance, medical, water, and government. In his new position, Mr. Hunker will also coordinate a national education and awareness program as well as develop legislative initiatives.

As Director of the CIAO, Jeffrey Hunker will work closely with our industry and government leaders to develop solutions to insure our national strength, security and economic viability. "Jeffrey Hunker's Commerce Department leadership in policy development, emergency management, and working with the private sector on important national issues, in addition to his private sector experience make him an exceptional choice for this position," said Secretary Daley.

The policy, which designates the Commerce Department as the executive agent to the CIAO, directs the government to serve as a model for infrastructure assurance. It also encourages the government to develop new ways to build partnerships with industry. "The Department of Commerce has the responsibility for establishing policies to assure the economic welfare and security of our country and we have many of the relationships to begin implementation of the President's policy," said Daley.

Prior to joining the CIAO, Mr. Hunker served as Deputy Assistant to the Secretary of Commerce, where he was responsible for economic policy development and special initiatives concerning the integration of economic, energy, and environmental issues. In addition, he directed activities regarding China and other developing countries and was a senior Administration official in numerous international negotiations.

Before his public service career, Mr. Hunker was Vice President of Corporate Finance at Kidder, Peabody & Co., Incorporated in New York, where he specialized in capital raising and acquisition advisory work for U.S. and European industrial firms. Previously, he was a consultant and case leader at the Boston Consulting Group. Mr. Hunker has an AB in Engineering and Applied Physics from Harvard College and a Doctorate in Business Administration from Harvard Business School. He has written several articles and one book on topics of public policy and corporate strategy.


(Mon May 25 1998 05:02 - ID#255284)
Yeah,, well,, see ya later----
As I cast my eye over the posts of this past spin I understand better why you merkans are loathed by the rest of the world, and seem to spend your time killing each other and teaching your children how to kill each other. Now you want to arm teachers for their protection and you have the gall to make judgements on societies that are many hundreds of years older than your own like some pimply teenager moralising to his parents? Well, I don't care. Merka, you are F*d.

You are all so against caring for anyone else that you'd rather shoot someone than give them a half a ham sandwich? It's your experience of the world. Well. I don't want it. I don't care for it. And, I say, don't ever come down under. Don't ever travel. Don't leave the hell hole you call home. Yanks go home. Concentrate, as in concentration camps. It'll be easier to be free of ya.

You really have no idea, other than pinko commie reflex what it is to care for another, an unrelated stranger. you see it as weakness. others see it as civilisation. so be it. stay away from nz. we don't want you. we don't want your right to bear arms. go on kill each other, the world will be better for it.

alberich said it well. ROR made sense, downunder is in fine company with his fellow stralians.

and i shall stay away from here. go on, pick up a gun and shoot an american. You owe it to america to shoot an american. It's what you do best, that and tell the rest of us how to live.

(Mon May 25 1998 05:08 - ID#286224)
@John Disney

For whatever reasons it seems to me that gold is poised to make a bgger move than we've seen is lately. It seems like it is sitting on the "edge". Really though don't expect much until the second week in June. --waiting is such sweet agony.

Whatever it is it is more fun than watching the crap on TV.

Besides, I bought 1000 shares of MINE and when gold starts making its move into the thousands I might even TRIPLE my money!


(Mon May 25 1998 05:18 - ID#386279)
Ditto for Oz!!

(Mon May 25 1998 05:22 - ID#255284)
Yar Nick
Now I understand the Merkan way is to kill a fellow Merkan. And with a Merkan made gun goddamn it!

Oh hey can you see?

(Mon May 25 1998 05:23 - ID#39857)
Aurator, they are Procrustean. baaa.

(Mon May 25 1998 05:25 - ID#411331)
@ALL: STAY AWAY FROM GOLDEN EAGLE SHARES! If you thought Bre-X was a a scam, at least those
people knew how to do it. At least they did some drilling. The clowns at Golden Eagle are basing ore reserves on grab samples and trenching!
NO LEGITIMATE MINING COMPANY WOULD ISSUE RESERVE FIGURES BASED ON SUCH PRIMATIVE DATA! BEWARE! Even if there is gold in Bolivia, have any of you ever heard of residual concentrations? Weathering concentrates
gold in soils and gossans as sub-ore bedrock degrades. Remember, gold is
virtually inert. Superficial residual concentrations can be many times the grade of the primary ( ore? ) beneath, yet golden eagle seems to be basing proven ore reserve figures on just such surface sampling techniques. BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE BEWARE!

(Mon May 25 1998 05:29 - ID#26793)
So. Korean unions promise General Strike; stocks drop 6+%

(Mon May 25 1998 05:32 - ID#255284)
Your flag decal wont get you into heaven any more, its already overcrowded from yor dirty little war

Well I had to go look Procrustean up. Yes, they are.

Thanks for the vocab lesson.

(Mon May 25 1998 05:32 - ID#26793)
Rubin comments hurt the yen

(Mon May 25 1998 05:38 - ID#26793)
Korea on the threshold of a long term recession

(Mon May 25 1998 05:41 - ID#233199)
@ Rhody --Thanks
... but for $300 I decided to play a roud of "lesser fool"

Here's a question foy you though, to take advantage of your knowledge. Is there any mining prospect you do like and are willing t mention?

Thanks again for the warning....

(Mon May 25 1998 05:47 - ID#411331)
@aurator: I agree. If you people feel intimidated in the land of Oz, how do you think
Canadians feel living next to the "land of the free". I can't help but think that it was American pressure that induced our CB to sell 80% of our gold reserves ( at a time when the $CAN was not under pressure ) . Australia also got suckered by the same pressure. Now that the Australian dollar is under pressure, where is the gold to defend it?
At least you people in NZ and Aust. have the Pacific Ocean between you and the 'States. Over the past 50 years, I have watched Americans buy up Canada with paper dollars. Need to buy up another oil field? Print some more money and go ahead! Although this is grossly simplistic, I think this is what has been going on.

(Mon May 25 1998 05:49 - ID#233199)
Or is that Greater Fool?

(Mon May 25 1998 05:50 - ID#26793)
Fed drained reserves over the holiday weekend.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 05:50 - ID#24135)
Rand off sharply ..
to all ..
Gold index off 15 now and rand is
5.14/5.15 to $. Last weeks high was
5.115 and it closed firm friday at
Signs in the sky ........

(Mon May 25 1998 05:53 - ID#230376)
@John Disney and Drifter..

(Mon May 25 1998 05:54 - ID#255284)
Oh no. Don't tell the merkans that the rest of the world is less than in awe of their risible


another branch of my family is Scots Canadian, originally and for several generations, of Montreal. Now, sadly escapees of the Quebec anglophone diaspora. I had the pleasure of renewing family ties after more than 30 years, just last year. I was but a child when last I visited. I hear and understand your fears easily. They are shared by my blood too..

A little like living next door to a gunpowder factory. The factory owner tells you "not to worry, we hardly ever have an accident."

Au Canada!!!!!

(Mon May 25 1998 05:54 - ID#411331)
@SWP1: At least you have not gambled a grat sum. Why not consider Vengold or Bema Gold Mines?
At least you know they have drill-proven reserves. Look up Taseko Resources. Even Royal Oak is better than Golden Eagle. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 05:54 - ID#26793)
List of Fed action on reserves since May 18th

(Mon May 25 1998 05:58 - ID#233199)

(Mon May 25 1998 05:59 - ID#386279)
Mates, you're paying the Yanks a compliment!!
When every Yank has got 15 guns, all of their kids will be able to kill each other.
Give it a few years and we'll have no more Yanks.

They can have their Dionysian paradise!!

(Mon May 25 1998 06:01 - ID#26793)
BIS says lending to banks in Asia has dropped 40.7%

(Mon May 25 1998 06:02 - ID#233199)
@ Rhody

Thanks, I generally stay away from such things, I just thought I might catch a few days so excitement. A crap shoot, but what the hell. I figure they'll have to puch it up a bit higher to bring in some more cash so they can finally USE that diamon drill they've been avoiding.

The question is when to jump off. I think I'll give it a few days. ( or get creamed if too many people wise up! ) .

(Mon May 25 1998 06:03 - ID#39857)
Whats the background on these dudes again? A victory sorts.
Monday 25 May, 1998 ( 5:34pm AEST )

Papua New Guinea Prime Minister, Bill Skate, says he's
received legal advice claiming last year's Sandline
mercenaries contract was unconstitutional.

Sean Dorney reports Sandline International's claim against
PNG for not paying up thirty one million dollars will go to
arbitration in Australia next month.

"Three retired Judges - one each from Australia, Great
Britain and New Zealand - will sit on the Arbitration
Tribunal to hear a claim by Sandline International for
some twenty million US dollars, most of that being the
unpaid second half of the mercenaries contract which was
aborted by Jerry Singirok's military revolt in March last
year. Prime Minister Skate revealed today that his
Government has received independent legal advice from
Roger Gyles QC of Sydney that the contract was void
because of constitutional provisions forbidding the
employment of external military forces. He said PNG's
Attorney General would soon be asking the PNG Supreme
Court for a constitutional ruling. Sean Dorney, Port

(Mon May 25 1998 06:03 - ID#26793)
BIS lists exposure to Asian crisis by country

(Mon May 25 1998 06:11 - ID#230376)
@ John Disney and Drifter...

DITTOS and MEGA DITTOS!!! Socialism in ANY form suckith. It simply does not work, in the long run. Look at all the governments of the world mired in debts that shall be only be re paid by default. U.S. " Foreign Aid " IMF World Bank all the same. We, you and I,and all whom have "contributed" with our taxes, and "served" our countries were and are screwed and tattooed. I truely hope Y2K wipes the slate clean. Perhapes, then, we can start afresh with the guidence of our founding fathers.

Auracious..... you are so confused..

(Mon May 25 1998 06:18 - ID#255284)
You can take the Yank out of America, but you'll never take America out of the Yank


It is an American's patriotic duty to shoot another American.

I mean, it's only fair. It's the American way! Like apple pie and a colt 45.

Arm the school kids, hell, arm the infants, if mum don't give the teat? Why! Shoot, the mutual fund! Damned cheek, it's my right! Gimme that teat.

Oh oh. rights, duties and obligations, then there's the heart, no?

It's the way we resolve disputes in America. Where everyone in the world wants to live. Yeah, sure.

Those gun-crazies will be awake soon, Nick. This time, they're really going to slam me, especially those that have never left the State or County or Town of their birth. Probably married there cousins too.

Merkans really are the most parochial of all the parochials. eh, lootenanant?

(Mon May 25 1998 06:24 - ID#411331)
@SWP1: Good luck. @John Disney: What is your interpretation of the fall in the Rand?
Do you think that this is a further attack on gold as a flight to quality/security?

(Mon May 25 1998 06:34 - ID#411331)
@all is the lands down under: Correct me if I'm wrong, but are not gun control
regulations in some/all jurisdictions in Australia, just as liberal as gun control regulations in the 'States. Gun control in Canada is very tight!. This may explain why there are fewer murders in all of Canada, than there are in Detroit Michigan, even though the population of Canada is 6 to 7 times the population of Detroit. But lest Merkans get too upset, Sao Paulo Brazil has 6000 murders per year which is about 10 times the rate of Detroit. If murder rates are a indicator of levels of freedom, perhaps we should call Brazil the 'Land of the Free'!

(Mon May 25 1998 06:34 - ID#230376)
Aurator .you have gone too far...

Nowhere in the many posts here , have we seen any venom spewed by any against any CITIZEN of a country until now. It has ceased to be "kidding around" and has got to be taken seriously. I consider your acidic diatribe extremely personal. I've really thought highly of you and had considered your comments as fun. Not so today.. It's Memorial Day in MY country and I honor the dead who have fallen, KILLED, I might add by ENEMY GUNS. Goodbye, my former friend, for we are no longer that.

(Mon May 25 1998 06:37 - ID#317193)
John Disney.......I like my "gut"....
Read your post on investing based on what your gut tells you to do. Unfortunately, I used that word last week. You are, of course, correct.

My stupid post should have indicated that I was expecting spot gold to go to $295 and that I was going to invest and gamble at that time. Shows what to many brewskis can do to your mind. Sometimes a mind is a deep, dark and dangerous place were one should not venture by oneself.

Thanks for the reminder of the need for unemotional decisions. If spot wont go to $295 this week then it should go the other way. Time will tell. This is an interesting week for the charts. Ones gut is useful when speculating if the TA leaves you up in the air on direction while the fundamentals are still sound. This is otherwise known as gambling. OK as long as a person knows what game is being played.


(Mon May 25 1998 06:48 - ID#255284)
Like I said, see ya later

Today is memorial Day?

I had no idea. Neither did I know what "memorial day" meant until your post just now.

I never meant any offence against any dead soldier who has laid down his life for the sake of freedoms that we now hold dear, and am mortified at my offence to the dead. Remember Eddie. My grandfather was the only one of five sons to survive the first three months of the Battle of the Somme. I think back over what I have said. Neither my Grandfather, nor, I hope, his brothers would have taken offence.

Why did you?

Dont forget. Merkans didnt get into WWI, and were only galvanised to fight nazism once merka had secured lend lease shipping to Europe and had been slapped int he face by the Japanese. Seems to me like you're all waiting to get slapped in the face again.

Merka this is not the world you think it is.

(Mon May 25 1998 07:02 - ID#411331)
@Ersel: If you think socialism is dead, you should be aware that man is a social animal. To wish
socialism dead is to wish for a world in which there is no heart. There are over 6 billion people in this world, and with a normal distribution for intelligence, that means 20% of these folk have an IQ that is insufficient for literacy. So what do we do with the 1200 million human beings on Earth that God forgot to give sufficient brains to be productive? Kill them?????? A neo-conservative world is too ugly to contemplate, but if you do want a look at such a society, try Nazi Germany, 1934-1945. I for one will tolerate a little socialism, if it means not living in such a nightmare.

(Mon May 25 1998 07:26 - ID#185448)
The fine art of cosmopolishing
The possibility to control your government, to call them sh**heads, to demonstrate against whatever, to vote for whoever, to sign petitions, to go wherever you want, to say whatever you want, to do whatever you want.

To live any kind of life, without permanent fear to act against the law or the need to decide either to be a coward or becoming a martyr.

Justice as a matter of fact within the legal system, a clear distinction between the legislative, the executive and jurisprudentia.

I can go for a walk in the middle of the night, I do not have to lock my car, ( usually I do not even lock my front door ) , I can feed my wife and daughter, I dont have to keep a gun under my bed, I am allowed to burn my countries flag anytime I want to.

Any kind of guvanment that provides this is respectable. Call it, however you want.
Any kind of living like that is desireable. Think about it.

Thank you

To fulfill the in situ-requirements: Buy Gold! ( Best at Kitco! )

BTW:USD continues decline vs. DEM. Do em merikans start to beggar us neighbored to get some balance though stability in interest rates??

(Mon May 25 1998 07:27 - ID#30116)
You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to make lots of money under Capitalism. Under Socialism, we just want to be 'fair' to everyone.

I wonder why so many 'social liberals' are on a gold site? It seems very antithetical to me, after all, don't you trust your governments and their fiat currency???

Investing gold bullion is the polar opposite of socialist B.S. in all of its' forms. It implies that you believe in keeping what you have EARNED. If you're here, then you're NOT interested in the redistribution of YOUR wealth.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 07:36 - ID#24135)
Good One Panda ..
For Swp1 .. I have no idea what the fall in the rand means.

For TYoung .. I didnt have YOU in mind when I said that.
I only trust my gut if it says Im gonna throw up.

For Rhody .. Do you really think that 20 %
of the world populatiom is so stupid that they are
UNABLE to take care of themselves. Baloney. They
always HAVE throughout history. How come NOW all of
a sudden the other 80% has to either TAKE CARE OF THEM
or KILL THEM ???
What arrogance !! these people can take care of
themselves and make their own decisions without "caring"
socialist aid and the "guidance" of a dozen social
Please try to think through what you just said and
place it in historical context. These 20 % people are
unlikely to become brain surgeons .. but they can be
plumbers or carpenters .. or even Gardeners ..Good
Grief ..

(Mon May 25 1998 07:40 - ID#30116)
One more comment on the socialist thing...
This past week was some child safety thing or another. The point was to have your children in seat belts or a child carrier while in a motor vehicle. This was a nationwide 'thing' ( U.S. ) because the 'police' were sick and tired of seeing children injured or killed in auto accidents. Sounds laudable doesn't it?

But wait! If you were seen in violation of this 'kind act', you would be pulled over and cited or given some type of warning. Hmmm. That doesn't sound like a free country to me. Sounds sort of like a police state. Of course these measures were undertaken for the, 'good of the children'.

Now safety is a wonderful thing, but we all have ( had? ) the right to be foolish and, at times, stupid. There is a price to be paid for acting foolish or stupid. Sometimes it is very high. When we seek to abolish it ( impossible! ) , then we let others think for us. When we do that, tyranny is not far behind. Besides, who are these people who think they know better than I, how to live my life and dispose of my work ( read income ) ? I think that they are a most vile group, if you ask me.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 07:42 - ID#24135)
Fight Night at Kitco Bar and Grill
Now That Aurator has sentenced Merkans to
death by mutually orchestrated firing squad,
I suggest we mumble a few words and move on.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 07:45 - ID#24135)
Another Good One Panda
" Vile Group " sums it up ..

(Mon May 25 1998 07:51 - ID#30116)
As for the stock market and gold...
Unless something really bad happens, like China lobbing a multiple warhead Lewinsky or Huange bomb, I can't see the equities tanking for long. If the Dow does 'dip' a thousand points or so, it will be perceived as another buying opportunity. Someday, the masses will wrong. Whether that drives gold up or not, I haven't a clue. I have always pegged my hopes for gold on some type of international currency crises involving the dollar or some other major currency, like the Yen or D.M. Alas, it does not appear to be. BUT! That will not preclude me from picking up gold stocks at a discount. The problem is, what is a good discount? Seventy five percent off? Ninety percent off of the five year highs?

(Mon May 25 1998 08:04 - ID#30116)
John Disney__A
My problem is that I've seen, first hand, the work of communists, socialists, and liberals. In the end, they all fail in reaching their laudable objectives ( because it's usually a lie to begin with ) . What they wind up with, is total control because, "If we could control just one more thing, we could make this work..." Unfortunately, that 'thing' happens to be me and my ability to earn income.

One thing that I have to say for the left though, they do a damn fine job of screwing up the education that the 'churldren' receive. All in the name of 'protecting the children'. Then the children grow up to be the fine idiots, or barbarians, who later vote more of the lefties in to further corrupt our society. Of course, from this well spring comes the animals who commit mass murder and mayhem in the schools as well as the streets.

And this I am forced to support through taxation on my earnings.


(Mon May 25 1998 08:17 - ID#45173)
Missed all the fun yesterday, political debate...
...on socialism vs. capitalism. This a.m. Gianni Dioro, you are retelling the economists joke I posted here a few months back. Glad you liked it. In the excitement two interesting posts got lost, RJ's quotation from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas ( the book, not the lame movie ) and Midas' short outburst about the death of Gold via the fouling effects of the derivatives racket and lamenting the need for a crisis to make good a gold investment. My $.02:

The difference between socialism and capitalism is this: life in this world is a cold, dark, lonely January night without friends, family, and community. Governments contribute too to protection from the elements. Under capitalism, some get a coat and some don't. Under socialsm, everybody gets half a coat. The left half, so to speak.

Capitalism is great for producing wealth, but lousy at distribution; socialism is good at distribution of wealth but lousy at production. Alas, no one has come up yet with the magic formula that is the right mix of the two. Europeans and Asians, having lived through terrible privation after WWII, tend more toward a system that distributes wealth in the spirit of compassion toward fellow nationals, at a cost to the incentives to produce wealth that are there in a purely capitalistic society. The USA stands alone in the world with it's emphasis on pure capitalism, generating huge quantities of wealth and concentrating it in the hands of a few while many of its citizens suffer and continue to live poorly.

We Americans forget that we have been here before. The emergence of the welfare state in the US, such as it is, is an outgrowth of our own capitalist debacle, The Great Depression. Before the Depression, pure capitalism was THE defining social and economic ideology. After, no one could quite recall why anyone had ever thought it was such a good idea. So, lacking a sustainable mix of capitalism and socialism, we Americans manage our ambivalence by adopting socialistic policies in cycles. We are at the end of a capitalistic cycle and are heading into a socialistic cycle. That means policies that redistribute wealth through taxation and inflation. I suggest that this makes gold a good investment.

RJ, thx for the Fear and Loathing. I'm guessing you are re-reading it? The spirit of the book certainly resonates today.

Midas, if you hang out ehre at Kitco you might think gold is the investment of ambulance chasers. But disaster is not necessary to make gold go up. In fact, disaster can make the price of gold go down, as the selling in distressed Asia attests. What makes the price of gold go up is a sea change in the view of gold as an investment and store of wealth for governments and individuals. It is now held in disfavor because returns on equities and debt has been better and--this is key--seen as equally safe for the past 20 years. The reason most corporations don't offer dividends is that investors view the return on investment in equities to be higher and just as predictable as bills, bonds, and notes, because for the past ten years that has been the case. What happens when that view changes? Debt gains popularity as the primary low-risk instrument for investment and gold the ultimate low-risk investment and the prime instrument for storing wealth. I say patience, it may take years but you don't have to wait for an asteroid to hit Wall Street.

Thanks for reading.

(Mon May 25 1998 08:30 - ID#317193)
I did not necessarily think you were directing the comment at me. Your words just hit home...ouch. Wake up calls are good to have unless ego gets in the way. I thank you.

Now, I must contemplate which way to bet in my gambling this week.: )


(Mon May 25 1998 08:33 - ID#270221)
(@The Skeptical Investor)
The fallacies of socialism were clearly explained as long ago as the middle of the last century by Frederick Bastiat. He was a Deputy to the French Legislative Assembly at a time when France was rapidly degenerating into complete socialism. In his book "The Law" ( 1848 ) he totally demolishes the socialist case. This little book is only 75 pages long - that is all it takes to do a complete job ( because the socialist case is so thin ) . I highly recommend The Law.

Mike Stewart
(Mon May 25 1998 08:35 - ID#270253)
New Feature at Big Charts
I must interupt the many pointless socio-economic comments to tell you about something you may actually use to make trading decisions.

Big Charts has added Canadian stocks to the service. It is free and can generate those great weekly and monthly charts with Bollinger Bands/ Moving Averages etc.

Just click on the Canadian flag when you get there.

Try a 10 year chart of BPT.A ( BGR Precious Metals ) on a monthly basis with the Bollinger Bands. Good stuff!

(Mon May 25 1998 08:38 - ID#284255)
Why the US is what it is?

(Mon May 25 1998 08:55 - ID#254269)
Book review; Creature from Jekyll Island
As some of you know, I had a difficult time getting hold of a copy from my local library but eventually tracked one down. Have been reading it over the weekend and am about 40% of the way into it. The first two chapters alone have been quite an eye opener. Fascinating stuff.

(Mon May 25 1998 08:58 - ID#254269)
Movie Review; Primary Colors with John Travolta
I know this has been out for a while, but I just went to see it yesterday.It's a scream and John Travolta does an excellent impersonation of BC. Two thirds of the way through it , I almost starting feeling sorry
for the Prez. I give it two thumbs up. Worth a visit if you haven't seen it.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:15 - ID#434137)
Panda: hrmm
When u say the schools are at fault what part do u actually mean? is it the teachers themselves? My mother is a damn fine educator and has been for 20 something years. No they arent at fault for mass murderers, communists, and what not. Rather the upbringing of these ppl primarily lacks of values and morals.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:16 - ID#242325)
Regardless of one's political preferences, the sharp move to the right over the last 20 years and the emergence of the US as the world's only superpower were the key factors behind the gold bear. If big capital ever again fears a move to the political left or a serious erosion of US global hegemony, gold will skyrocket and stocks will plunge.

Earl: Agree the dipsters will be buying heavily on any 10% corrrection. But if the rally from that correction fails to make new highs reasonably quickly, that will set the stage for a much bigger drop. The buy the dips mantra must be discredited before a severe bear can commence. My judgement is that the odds of a rally from the next 10% correction quickly reaching new highs are less than 20%.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:20 - ID#426220)

For those wishing to remember:

(Mon May 25 1998 09:21 - ID#286199)
Back to the Gold news....
May 25, 1998
Australia Gold Corp. Renews Buying Aurora's Gold In Jakarta

Dow Jones Newswires

CANBERRA -- Western Australian state agency Gold Corp. will resume buying gold from Australia's Aurora Gold Ltd. ( A.ARR ) Monday, Aurora Gold said in a statement. On May 15, Gold Corp. suspended purchases "under force majeure provisions due to civil unrest" in Jakarta.

Aurora produces gold from its Mt. Muro mine on the Indonesian island of Kalimantan, and the gold is refined in Jakarta before being purchased by Gold Corp.

"The circumstances giving rise to ( the suspension of buying ) have now abated and normal bullion transport and security arrangements have been established," Aurora said in a statement.

The company, which has re-opened its Jakarta office and operations, resumed dore shipments to Jakarta late last week and sales to Gold Corp. will occur in the normal manner Monday, it said.

Aurora, which mines about 20,000 ounces of gold a month at Mt. Muro, didn't stop production, stockpiling output at the mine instead.

-By Ray Brindal; 612-6208-0902;

(Mon May 25 1998 09:24 - ID#31876)
Rhody, Thank you for your 05:25 Warning re. MINE.
Additional warnings are carried by Cyberwhispers....

(Mon May 25 1998 09:33 - ID#153102)
@Strong ? Greenback
33. American firms pay twice as much to borrow money and make new
investments as do their foreign counterparts. ( U.S. News and World
Report )

Usury inexorably eats away the substance. 10 for 11; 10 for 11.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:44 - ID#254269)
Thank you for your posting.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:51 - ID#45173)
vronsky Couldn't follow the URL you posted...
...kindly repost? Thx.

(Mon May 25 1998 09:55 - ID#257136)
gagnrad I would appreciate your contacting me by email if you feel secure in doing so.
As a "Behavioral Scientist" circa 1965 B.S. Soc. and pysch.,long since retired from the bureaucratic wars, I would like to give you a brief rundown on my perspective of the programs and how easily one can become enmeshed in the "warm fuzzies'.
Also, how easily it can all change as one's eyes are opened.
I'll understand if you don't respond, but hope you will.

Dave in Co.

Hope you made it back home o.k..Enjoyed the too short visit with you and your wife. Charming woman!. My wife echoes the statement!
When timely, drop me a line email!

(Mon May 25 1998 09:55 - ID#254269)
EJ : vronsky's URL can be accessed on K2. I could not access it on

(Mon May 25 1998 09:58 - ID#257136)
gagnrad. forgot to enter my email:
Question: do you pronounce it as the french would -Gannyeerad, with a slight accent on the g ( y sound ) ?

(Mon May 25 1998 10:06 - ID#34883)
19th Century congressman
Davey Crockett makes here a pretty good case against government's entry into the realm of postitive rights hence breaching their role as protectors of private property and negative rights. Might think that Andrew Jackson fans are averse to using Crockett's wisdom here owing to his political career seems to have evolved into being an adversary to anti-national bank Jackson. Nevertheless his speech is still golden...

(Mon May 25 1998 10:08 - ID#341189)
Your thoughts on the markets and gold stocks: picking them up on a discount, "but what's a discount?" My thoughts exactly and I've been doing some research on this. There are two things that make gold stocks in general a buy: one of course is if the price of gold is unusually low; the other is if the shares are unusually low with respect to the present price of gold ( whatever price that is ) . I'm willing to assume that gold is cheap, so the shares are good buys on that measure. But what about their price relative to the price of gold? This is what Donald tries to capture with his attention to the XAU/AU ratio. At present it is .27 which is very high relative to other times when gold has been at this level. Or looked at another way, when the XAU has been at 81.04 +/- 4% in its history, the XAU/AU ratio has averaged .233, ( way below today's .27 ) .
But this is only part of the story. That history ( 14+ years ) has been during a period of slightly downtrending gold prices, but uptrending XAU prices. This has been due to more efficiency in mining and probably also to the use of hedging. When I "correct" the historical XAU/AU ratio for these trend effects, I get a predicted present XAU/AU ratio of .2744 given the present price of gold at 299.6. This means that the present XAU is slightly below where it "ought" to be with todays gold price. So, I'm thinking todays Average gold shares are a bargain on the assumption that gold is a bargain and at least at fair value relative to today's gold price.

(Mon May 25 1998 10:13 - ID#257136)
rhodyyour 07:02 makes it sound as if a little socialism is O.K.. Kinda like a little dose of clapp?.
Or being a li't pregnant?
There are myrid books describing societies before the advent of the insanity known as socialism.
Interesting studies, all.
As to illiterates, I live in a county where the literacy rate-officially- is 75%.
In 1987 it was 62%.
We have had a lot of folks move here ( Mena, Arkansas ) and as of 1992 the rate was as stated above 75%.
My point is that many of the folks of subnormal I.Q. can function well in the grand and glorious socialistic employment boom. They can flip burgers and wash cars and mow lawns, etc.
And not surprisingly, they are HAPPY in their work as in their eyes they are needed and are accomplishibg something.
I've seen many on gubmnt programs designed merely to contain the less able intellectually. They are jokes. Mere custodial centers. Kinda like the basket weaving classes which were formerly derided in t.v. sitcoms.

There have never been successful societies based on a socialist gubmnt CONTROLLING everything as is the goal of the Elitists.
If you feel that a little socialism is acceptable, you have bought the Elitists line-hook and sinker, also!

(Mon May 25 1998 10:14 - ID#31876)
Why the Yen Dropped Today
Rubin is willing to let the Japanese yen keep plunging below
the 140-to-the-dollar level and even to 150 if that's the only
way to keep the world's second-biggest economy from totally

(Mon May 25 1998 10:16 - ID#31876)
Left out a Digit

(Mon May 25 1998 10:17 - ID#222448)
Panda - Just who are the
Date: Mon May 25 1998 08:04

panda ( John Disney__A ) ID#30116:

"My problem is that I've seen, first hand, the work of communists, socialists, and liberals. "

My question is just who are these lefties? We have seen for the past few generations a lot of left wing ideology and thinking creep into politics and the way western society is now structured ( & thinks ) but not by "socialist" but by some so-called right wingers.

It seems voting "right" wing does not ensure right wing ideology. I think Lawyers have some part to play in all this...

(Mon May 25 1998 10:18 - ID#342376)
@ Rhody subject: Golden Eagle
Thanks for your post. I own a fair amount of Golden Eagle which I bought at about 12 cents. Your post makes sense. All the hype should take the stock up this week. I'll take some profits to make sure I at least get what money I put into it back, the rest will be a free ride. After Bre-X they must know that the report will come under close scrutiny. Would anyone have the gall to pull another Bre-X? If it's a scam, they better run for cover. It would affect the whole Mining Industry more so than Bre-X.

(Mon May 25 1998 10:22 - ID#254112)
Communism - Socialism
Communism is based on the utopian idea that in a totaly liberated society everybody can work and create according to his/her gifts and consume according to his/her needs.
The practical implementation of this utopian model assumes that there are at least as many neurotic workaholics who are turned on by producing goods and putting them into store shelves of warehouses than there are of those who prefer to take these goods out of the shelves, according to their needs.

This economic model of course never worked. I think there are no communists anymore who think this model would ever work. Therefore, communism is dead. What comes closest to this type of irrationally organized economic model is to import goods, Japanese cars, whatever the Asians produce, and to export T-notes, to export thin air in exchange. Such economic fundamentals educate the masses towards communism, this "educational phase" is called Socialism.

What is not dead at all is Socialism. The ideology of socialism in the hands of Wallstreet bankers and propagated through their propaganda machines, the media, is probably the greatest danger for America. After the middle classes will have lost 90% of their retirement savings and drown in debts, the masses in America will be told to hate those who have some property. Any kind of property. Envy and hatred will be propagated.
I'm afraid the bankers will direct America into a new large scale war to channel these hatreds. At least they will try it and China, who else?, will be the target. One way to prevent against this type of socialist future in America would be a self-organization of the ethnic groups in order to resist these prospects.

Whatever the future of this country will be, to own gold will increase the chances for survival.

I'm an optimist. I always was. But America has a way to scare me to death.

Alberich the Dwarf

(Mon May 25 1998 10:22 - ID#43460)
Downunder_A, Rhody, Aurator, etc. My LAST, last post on this nasty subject!
Downunder_A no joke, friend! The basis for the entire abortion/euthanasia movement of the 1960's through the present is firmly based on Nazi eugenics laws. Easiest references to find on the internet are probably from searching for the Dutch or Danish euthanasia laws. IMHO

Rhody: Repeat after me: Nazism = National Socialism = Nazism = National Socialism = Nazism = National Socialism. Don't tell me. They neglected to mention that in your history textbook. Duh! IMHO

Aurator: Sorry to disappoint you but the white 'merican crime rate is just about the same as that of white Europeans and white 'stralians. And the last big world hyped shooting incident allegedly involved the son of two establishment liberals, allegedly members of the notoriously leftist teachers union. In the US a rural New Zealander or Austalian be more comfortable among rural conservative US types in all probabability. The US is a strongly multicultural country. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 10:22 - ID#411112)
On this day when we remember those who died for freedom,let me repeat what the enemys of
freedom said many years ago,it will explain a lot,"in order for us to destroy America we cannot do it from outside we have to attack from within,destroy it's patriotism,its religion and its education system,how successful have they been.......a Patriot today is someone who is a gun nut,a Chirstian is a zealot,and the ACLU is to blame for all the school carnage.....on this day I pledge to fight this pond scum with everything I have.........

(Mon May 25 1998 10:29 - ID#257136)
aurator: yours of 06:18 dun cost u iny rispect ah hed fer u!
I got a hunch if'n ya wuz ta study da dimmografics of li'l ol' gnu zeeelund, ya'd lern 'bout thuh reults of insest.

Chek yo shavin/ meer! It ud bee ezr ta du!

Ah'v alluz wnned ta c neew zeelund, but now ah kin c it'ud be jis lak u imagin arkansas 2 b.

yer bee hav ur pruuvs mah point!
Jest cuz tha handout resipiants ' dun 'lectd ol' b. j. don' meen all us'n heer in the Land Favored Above All Others r as provinshul as u thank we b.
Si quiere hablar en otros idiomas 'sta 'ueno con mi.

La ignorancia no parada a la fronteras de Estados Unidos De America.
Veo que estas en Nuevo Zealand, tambien, pero es mas grande!

(Mon May 25 1998 10:47 - ID#286230)
The posts of the past 24 hours purportedly on Capitalism Vs Socialism demonstrate that the "Gold I going Up" chant that prevailed here for 2 years while gold dropped $100+ -- was no fluke.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 10:53 - ID#24135)
Lawyers have a lot to do with it
To all
In this little dumbo adventure involving
microsoft and Reno, the Lawyers collect from
both Gates and from the US Taxpayer.
I never liked MS much before and always went
for their competition. Now Im giving up on
Netscape and Ill use the lousy MS browser.

ps dont mind Auracious .. he gets like that..
I think some refused to give him half a ham
sandwich once.

pps .. Point someone made on crime ridded
US statisics that my southern cross compatriots
love to refer to was spot on. Death rate by
violence among White non Hispanics is about
the same as Germany as I recall .. I wonder
if its better than Australia ??

(Mon May 25 1998 10:53 - ID#45173)
aurator: guns
The whole issue of gun control law is application of law. What makes sense and works in an urban area does not make sense or work in a rural area. Concentrated availability of weapons in high population areas is a perscription for disaster. The problem is that in the US, guns flow like water from rural states that don't need gun control laws to urban states that do, thus arming masses of crimanals in urban centers. The only apparent solution is national gun control.

(Mon May 25 1998 10:56 - ID#45173)
Selby: "$100 drop in price is no fluke" meaning...
I missed your point, sorry.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 11:06 - ID#24135)
Meaningless contribution
to all
Gold .. 299.5 ??
Jse-gold index - off 17
Rand -- 5.14 .. new low

Gun control means they take my
gun so I cant defend myself from
the criminal who gets HIS gun by
criminal means .. No thanks
That puts me in the hands of
either the criminals or the ineffectual/
corrupt police. A rather typical
Socialist style solution to problems.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:10 - ID#411163)
EJ @guns and crime
EJ you are wrong about gun control! Perhaps just make it illegal to commit murder would work? Less than 1/10 of 1% of the guns in the USA are used to commit crimes. Guns control only removes guns from law abiding people, in other words it controls the the 999 guns that commit no crimes while the bad guys pay no attention at all. To buy a gun in any state you have to be a resident of that state, so the arguement that guns flow to high population areas does not fly! The government guns control types presupposes that the majority can not be trusted with the ability of self defense. I was once jumped by a car load of
felons-just the sight of my .45 auto and they made peace-FAST

(Mon May 25 1998 11:11 - ID#373284)
ALBERICH - Hmmmmmmmmm, your words are consistently teeming with
caring and I appreciate each and every post. America is alive and well my friend...maniacs like me guarantee the GOOD FIGHT shall never be Lost...

On this lovely, rainy Island Long day a telymendous GULP to Ya!

And like Mercury they splattered, fell, regrouped and just KEPT at it...

(Mon May 25 1998 11:12 - ID#45173)
John Disney: Gun control means that if by chance you happen
to leave your house and visit a city then the probability of you getting shot by a mugger is lower because he isn't swimming in a sea of cheap guns there. The probability of him coming to your house is small in any case. Or, more to the point, because with gun control he really has to work at getting a gun, and they cost more, thus there are fewer, he is less likely to shoot someone else in his neighborhood. But that's his problem, right?

(Mon May 25 1998 11:16 - ID#45173)
Rack: this gun debate never ceases to amaze me
All you have to do is look at the record of overy single other country on earth, most of which have 1/10 or less of the gun-related death that we have here in the US, and ask: why? The whole debate is so idiotic it's hard to imagine how it continues at all.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:16 - ID#286230)
That some know as much about Socialism as they know about gold's direction and the facts don't reduce their volume or fervor. Interesting commentary on the need to defend public positions when the events of the world go against you. It is an example of a notion called Cognitive Dissonance. Hitler showed it in the last days in the bunker when he maintained the that he would defeat the Russians when they were already in Berlin. Castro shows it now when he implies that communism will survive him in Cuba after he dies.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:16 - ID#373284)
Since I am still drunk, that an oxymoron?
A most delightful time...Avikey and his Lady were wonderful but I think my tattoos scared them...good kids... a privilege...

(Mon May 25 1998 11:16 - ID#254269)
Guns; since Texas allowed concealed carry permits a couple of years ago,
violent crime is down. You never know who will be carrying one. Enforcing the laws on the books is the way to go.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:21 - ID#317193)
Do guns and gold flow in the same direction? Never mind. Do guns cause harm or is it the bullets? Never mind. Excuse me, Ill keep my gold, guns and ammo. If I am lucky the only good to come from them is to pass all on to my children. Peace of mind, anyone?

Enough of such useless poppycock. I am not lost so gobermt need not save me...please!


Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 11:23 - ID#384350)
The Spirit of Goodwill
My friend told me how it used to be before big govt. His parents have a farm, and he said in the old days, when a farmer was sick or injured and couldn't tend to his fields, something extraordinary would happen. At around 4 PM around 10-20 farmers would come over and work the sick farmer's land after they had finished at their own farms. It would only take them less than an hour. The farmers felt good about it, and knew that if someday they themselves should fall ill, then the favour would be returned.

Contrast that to today. His father is retired, collecting a state pension. If his father were to work the farm in any way, his retirement benefits would be stripped by the State.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:23 - ID#45173)
Selby: so if you have a lot of gold, you feel compelled to look
for reasons why it will rise in value, especially if you bought it at $500 or even $700. True enough. Likewise, even if all indicators are that deflation is rushing from Asia to the US, corporate earning are down, and profit increases from technology and downsizing have peaked, money continues to pour into the stock market. Cognative dissonance indeed.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:26 - ID#373284)
EJ - Hey YO!
FREEDOM OF CHOICE and RESPONSIBILITY...I wish Academia came in a jar with the other nuts...

(Mon May 25 1998 11:29 - ID#153102)
If you are an American and you don't want to live in a socialist hellhole, you must open your eyes and face a prospect which once was unthinkable.

It is going to be a piece of cake for federal sabateurs to maintain a permanent state of emergency during and after Y2K. If they could blow up the federal building in OKC when all systems were functioning and get away with it as they did, one hundred trained men centrally co-ordinated can keep this place staggering indefinitely. And those men are already in place. The same people who found and recruited them have been finding and recruiting people to do dirty deeds overseas for fifty years. They have it down to a science. They have honed their knowledge of the appropriate personality and background profiles. The disruption will all be attributed to either the Y2K bug or to "terrorists". Networks, which are centrally managed, are most easily sabotaged from the central location. When FEMA is in charge of the electric grid, they can implement rolling outages and noone will be the wiser. The media will dutifully report what they have been told officially. After people have been freezing in the dark for a while and hungry, they will be glad to get on a nice, warm FEMA bus to be taken to shelter and a warm meal. After people have been uprooted from their homes and personal resources, they will be totally dependant on their savior-custodians. The people doing this rounding up will actually think they are doing a sharing, caring thing. If you owned a gun ( or gold ) when you left home, it will not be there when you get back.

Perhaps this will sound less farfetched if you consider the United States Government has no way out of the financial cul de sac into which it has spent itself since FDR declared a bank holiday. How do you tell people that decades of their labor was stored in financial assets which are fraudulent and worthless ? You don't. The facade of "capitalism" which has been wearing thinner and thinner with each passing decade will be in tatters in Y2K and will have to be replaced with something else. That something else is going to be the "genuine public-private partnership" which Clinton has been speaking to the troops about and which FEMA has been preparing to implement according to its mission statements. If you imagine the patriots in the standing Army is going to prevent this, you are betting against history. They didn't stop Lincoln; they didn't stop FDR; they won't stop CLinton. He is the Commander In Chief. And those that don't fit in will be out.

Those who think socialism is about sharing and caring are deluded. Sharing and caring are individual acts motivated by charity. Socialism is a system.

If you read Alberich's comments about America, you are privy to some unblinkered observations. In the seventy years since FDR this nation has lost its core of shared ideals, its common law, its true history, and its way and has learned how to take orders. The military model of organization is, of course, the same model of organization of a socialist system. And that is why in an air of emergency and crisis, this new system of a "genuine public-private partnership" will be accepted without much fuss. A school system that demands that youngsters adapt to being regimented, many veterans and reservists in the population, and thirty years of martial and administrative law have set the stage. It will only be much later that people realize that what they thought was going to be temporary has, in fact, been made permanent. Eventually, they will tire of the regimentation, but it will be too late. Those that don't close ranks and stay in step will be dealt with. People who pin their hopes on rural populations don't understand numbers, air mobility, or firepower. And emergency and crisis can always be extended by another foreign war. Over the course of time, any idealism remaining will be corroded. In the end, the USA will resemble the Russia of today, a shabby, crumpled empire.

You may be one of those who has hung on to the old dream of the original America, one of those who hoped things you knew were going in the wrong direction would someday be set right. If you are, don't delude yourself that you can prevent what is going to happen. Organizing to resist will just get you arrested for conspiracy today. Future resistance will just give credibility to the official propaganda. A revolution from the top is truly irresistible by the people. Perhaps Napoleon was the originator. But, Lincoln set the pattern in America. FDR emulated him. FDR is Clinon's hero. If you are not going to fit in, get out. He who knows when to run away lives to fight another day. Gold is portable.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:30 - ID#254269)
Crime and punishment. The trouble with the gun debate is that it is so intertwined
with crime and punishment. The real problem is that there is no "visible relationship" between the crime and the punishment. Remember the uproar a few years ago about that American kid in Singapore who sprayed the graffiti on the cars and was sentenced ( under Singapore law ) to a few
whacks on his buttocks. Remember the uproar about that.
If we are going to have a death penalty, maybe what we need to do is make it a public hanging ( literally on the courthouse steps ) , where the
general population ( and certainly impressionable kids ) , can realise that
these "randon acts of violence" can and do have major consequences. The idea of "lethal injections" in a rural penitentiary in the middle of the night, in my opinion, does nothing to bring the message home to society.

(Mon May 25 1998 11:30 - ID#411112)
EJ...think its jan.2000 gangs are roaming the streets,what do you want,good intentions or something
that makes big holes in bad people,for everyone who wants gun control means one less bullet I need to carry.....the 2nd.amendment was not put there to shoot bambi,it was for a free people to protect themselves from tyrannical government.......your position makes no sense.....we might as well ban cars they kill more kids each day

(Mon May 25 1998 11:32 - ID#342376)
Kitco polarized? Tell me it isn't so?
What should be the next topic, abortion?

(Mon May 25 1998 12:06 - ID#342315)
Aurator re kit
That's a heel of a mess. If you want wait ok. But if you want me to get one and airmail it, I'll be glad to. On bill of laden I'll call it essential oils. It is possible I can get one in Charlotte under $40 fob. If you'll like,I'll get all costs together and let you know. Hope this helps, Charlie

(Mon May 25 1998 12:13 - ID#411112)
crazytimes, how about we get J.Disney to post his favourite African dishes :)


(Mon May 25 1998 12:16 - ID#342376)
@ Robnoel
In that case, the topic should be 101 uses for DROOY sauce.

(Mon May 25 1998 12:45 - ID#31868)

(Mon May 25 1998 12:51 - ID#227238)
Alberich @10:22: You seem to understand the the US situation very well. I'm sure there are many others, myself included, who view future events in the very same light. And it is unsettling.

Were it not for the complications of family ties, I would likely opt to leave for the pleasure of tending John Disney's rose garden.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:09 - ID#411163)
EJ your reply to John Disney about going into the city being safer
for you with gun control is again the wrong way to look at it. If you look at just gun deaths per 100,000 population you might be correct. If you compare murder rates per 100,000 you would lose the bet. If a gun is not available they use poison and knives. Again you have to have faith that by far the largest % of people are law abiding. You sound like the Government- ie trying to save us from ourselves. Remember what Mao said about government coming from the barrel of a gun? Its a true story. Guns save more lives than they take, you just don't read about it in the paper much because its not news, no dead bodies. Those guys who tried to jump me never reported the incident and deither did I
You see no crime was commited! Chalk up "ANOTHER" one to John Browning!

(Mon May 25 1998 13:19 - ID#153102)
The federal establishment is on record. They want your gun. The second amendment has been whittled down. If it meant anything to them, it would be intact. When they create the opportunity to disarm you, they are going to do it. And Y2K is the perfect opportunity in which they will be able to create yet more opportunity. All you will be allowed to carry on the FEMA bus will be one suitcase.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:20 - ID#252127)
Panther Resources Announces Agreement Signed with CPM Group

This release may be of interest to Panther Resource fans.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:23 - ID#43460)
EJ re gun debate
Sorry to disillusion you. but the gun debate is all confabulated. It makes good press and sells papers. The murder rate among white Americans is roughly that of the Scots. And the much touted higher American rate, due to African American and Mexican American influences are LOWER by an order of magnitude than comparable West African and Latin American countries. Sure, in central Africa you're more likely to be hacked to death with a machete and in Philadelphia you may be shot, but dead is dead? IMHO

Now let me tell you something really scarey. In Holland, ( which is small enough to lose in the US ) there are 15,000+ cases of medical euthanasia per year. Of these one in five are entirely 'involuntary', i.e. patient and family have no say over the 'mercy killing'. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 13:24 - ID#252127)
Panther Resources Announces Agreement Signed with CPM Group

Darn it, try again
This release may be of interest to Panther Resource

(Mon May 25 1998 13:27 - ID#30116)
EJ -- Depressions are part of the cycle of capitalism. They were routinely referred to as 'panics' and 'depressions' before the P.C. group came along and renamed them recessions. The depressions represented the 'natural' cleansing of inflation from the system. I know, it's cruel, but so isn't life...


It has never worked and never will work. Firearms are not the problem.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 13:30 - ID#24135)
How wrong can you get ??
EJ ..
If you dont mind, I would like to be responsible for
my own protection. I think I will do a better job of it
then YOU will or whoever YOU may nominate. If a criminal
wants to get a gun .. he will.. if he has to pay more ..
he will.. he will offset his extra costs by committing
more crimes .. you are wrong for top to bottom and from
side to side.
If you want no gun .. thats your choice. Call if you
need help.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:33 - ID#30116)
G-Nutz -- I have no doubt that there are many fine teachers out there. I DO NOT blame them for what has happened to the 'churldren'. Rather, I see some families that don't give a damn because of gubament handouts and other families that need two incomes to make the barest of ends meet. Why is this? Does anybody really take look at their pay stub and see the taxes that they are paying? What if half of that tax money went in to the families pocket instead of the gubaments pocket? I'm not sure of the answer to that one, because some people just can't manage money, but why do I have to support them for their failure to learn economics 101?

Sorry about the digression there, but schools have become the dumping ground for kids while parents are working to pay the bills and ever increasing levels of taxation. Who teaches these kids moral values? That's not the teachers job. Reading, writing, and mathematics is their purview.

Also, dishonest money has something to do with this. In the old days, people would cheat by shaving the coins ( gold and silver ) . Nowadays, the gubament does this for you. It's called inflation. Guess what? They also measure it for you to! :- ) )

(Mon May 25 1998 13:34 - ID#30116)
Carl -- Thanks for your analysis and input.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:35 - ID#254269)
EJ; Don't worry, we'll make a conservative out of you
yet ! ( Big silly grin ) . Truthfully, I used to think like you, that more controls are the answer. The reality is that they are not. Like John D. says, if a criminal wants a gun, he'll get one. That's why they are called criminals.

(Mon May 25 1998 13:35 - ID#266105)

SouthernEra Resources ( SUF:TSE ) announced that it has

withdrawn its case preventing the Marsfontein heirs through NGS

Minerals ( Pty ) Ltd. from dealing with the mineral rights on the farm

Marsfontein 91KS in South Africa. The claim by the heirs opposing

SouthernEra's acquisition of the mineral rights was also withdrawn.

SouthernEra has decided, according to a report by The Financial Post

that it is further ahead to settle with the heirs by way of a $21 million

offer, matching an offer made by DeBeers. The heirs want a big

cheque rather than mineral rights. SouthernEra is calculating that the

heirs will be better off with them than DeBeers, whose offer is

contingent upon exploration results. ( May 22/98 )

(Mon May 25 1998 13:38 - ID#341234)
Guns & Stocks
I doubt making guns illegal would solve anything. Drugs are illegal, and they are everywhere. Guns are not consumed like drugs. Making guns illegal would turn me and many other good citizens into criminals. We are not the threat! Years of Government programs aimed at "helping the children" have created a permanent under class of scum bags. My gold is worthless if I do not have a gun to protect it from these animals. On the news just last week, Six Flags had a "schools out" day attended by inner city youths. Instead of just having a good time, a riot broke out. It reminded me of L.A., and this is Texas.

I keep hearing people say that the stock market cannot go down because there is so much money flowing in. Here are some figures and thoughts:

Mutual fund inflows:
Last week: 0.5 billion
Week before: 4.2 billion
4 week average: 3.5 billion

IPOs next week: 2.4 billion

Mutual fund data from:
IPO data from:

How do you soak up all the money going into the stock market? IPOs. With all the money flowing in ( demand ) , the IPOs are also increasing ( supply ) . It is like if you are always pumping air into a tire with a leak. Eventually, you cannot pump enough air into it, and it goes flat while you are driving down the road which results in a blow out and causes you to swerve off the road over a cliff where your car bursts into flames. After they recover your charred remains, the only question they ask is, "why did he push his luck with that old tire when he could have taken a yellow ( gold ) taxi?"

(Mon May 25 1998 13:39 - ID#30116)

Prospector -- Chameleons? Just because someone bears an 'R' in front of their name does not mean that they are any different than someone who bears a 'D'. The common interest seems to be money and power. We, the people, have given over too much authority to these boobs. We have become complacent and lazy.

Once upon a time, politics was played out when the work in the fields was done. Nowadays, the politico's work the same hours we do, hold hearings and vote on issues relevant to us while we are at work and unable to speak for ourselves. Thus we are taxed more as we labor to pay our already heavy burden of taxation. Such a deal, huh?

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 13:56 - ID#24135)
What does it all mean ??
for 2bro2b
I read that too. Can you figure out
if it's good or bad for rangold ??

(Mon May 25 1998 14:06 - ID#227290)
Canadian Gold Stock "Quick" Update
To all:
As you may or may not know, mining shares are trading in Canada today.
Barrick is down $.15 after being down $.50 earlier this morning.
Placer Dome has now turned up $.15 after being down $.10 earlier.
Bema is down $.03 at $3.00. Arizona Star is up $.03 at $1.77.

Aur Resources says it will start paying a $.05 dividend to shareholders of record on June 15. It is up $.14 to $3.64.
North American Palladium is up $.02 to $3.00 after reaching a high today of $3.20, and for the first time moving higher than it was the day the big announcement came that it lost $70 million last year and was delisted from NASDAQ.
Guyana Goldfields is up $.10 today to $.85. It announced the acquisition of the Aurora property in Guyana and gave the previous history of that property. Basically, GGFI bought a mine for less than 1 million.

And Sonoma remains halted pending a news release. I know more details of this now. Sonoma is going into the fingerprint technology business through the reverse takeover of a California company. The big question is, will the VSE require Sonoma to stay halted for several months while it checks out the details of the merger?

And one more item: Pan American Silver is up $.30 to $13.10 today.

I'm still holding out for a rally in both gold and silver. Many are taking an opposing view for the short-term. All is fair. I think we got the turn in gold 12 days ago and we got the turn in silver 5 days ago. It's higher, faster, and farther from here.
Stay with it.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

Rising Sun
(Mon May 25 1998 14:13 - ID#411331)

Thank you for your market commentaries. I was wondering if you still recommend LYDX.

(Mon May 25 1998 14:14 - ID#30116)
For what little this is, this is what my hopes are pinned on... O.K. a fool and his money...

(Mon May 25 1998 14:16 - ID#30116)

(Mon May 25 1998 14:19 - ID#218416)
Were you the one that snuck in for 2.28 on GEO early this AM while the I was dozing? Tnx for the Canadian gold stock update. As an aside, the pharmaceutical co. HPC has been worth it's weight in gold the last two weeks. Up .67 today. I must learn to jump on these when they are in the .50 range.

(Mon May 25 1998 14:20 - ID#342376)
Thanks Preacher
I noticed Pegasus Gold is up 7.69% too!

(Mon May 25 1998 14:30 - ID#344308)

with-out a peek in 2, maybe 3 weeks.....
silver is giving many a ride they cared not for.....

options insure the driver follow an ascribed to path....

reify....back at you later..

hello to all......may your war paint never run.....'s is god...and good.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 14:33 - ID#384350)
Alberich, Yer Black GI
Great comments last night. It reminded me of the film, "When We Were Kings", a documentary of Ali's fight with Zare in '74. In it a man paraphrases what Mohammed Ali said when drafted to fight in Viet Nam War. He stoicly refused to go and said, "Why should I go overseas to kill these people? They didn't do anything to me."

And the USG threw Ali into a prison cell, because he wouldn't conform.

(Mon May 25 1998 14:39 - ID#344308)

which way now?

i say oil, gold, and grains.........

read on...

(Mon May 25 1998 14:41 - ID#153102)
FEMA had facilities all over this country, staffed, ready, and waiting to be filled with non-conformists. And when they are inside wearing the label of terrorist and without access to a writ of habeas corpus, they will work for Federal Prisons, Inc. or they won't eat.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 14:48 - ID#384350)
Usury Breeds Socialism
Someone linked a site earlier which showed the cost of carrying the US debt in '96 was $365 billion.

$365 Billion paid to the USURER.

Now think about this. If the US Treasury printed its own dollars instead of commissioning the Fed to do it, THERE WOULD BE NO GOVT DEBT whatsoever.

Those who preach Socialism don't realise that their pockets are being picked by the usurer. The executioner's face is always well hidden. No, they only see the millionaire next door, and want what he has got.

If one of us were drowning, I have a pretty good idea who would be first ones who would jump in and risk their lives attempting a rescue.

(Mon May 25 1998 14:49 - ID#410215)
.... ??? .....

I tried to post several times but I get a Save File dialog box when I press Submit Comment. Has anyone else had this problem? This small post should go through, but the longer one I'm trying to post is stuck?????


(Mon May 25 1998 14:52 - ID#410215)
.... Youse Guys .....

Ersel on Aurator -

It is precisely that our own 64K friend from through the earth is so congenial that his latest posts caught my attention. I must admit, I can find no fault in his logic. It may be impolite to speak the truth, but it is the truth, and no amount of glitter and polish will shine this ugly truth up. Perhaps this particular holiday is the best time to think upon this?

Rhody -

New York has among the tightest gun control laws in the nation, yet the murder rate there is higher than most nations on earth.

Gun control has nothing to do with the murder rate.

It is a persons willingness to pull the trigger.

Americans are very good at pulling the trigger.


(Mon May 25 1998 14:52 - ID#31868)
cherokee_A and EB - your names were mentioned yesterday and once again
I Kevan S. Khanamirian raise a HUGE glass of tequila in honor of the two of you...GULP.......................................NAMASTE'

(Mon May 25 1998 14:58 - ID#404246)


I am not mad at you nor offended though I be an Merkan, Texan actually. I have no problem with what people believe -- only when they try to force me to believe. I feel you were stating your beliefs instead of ranting propaganda and trying to manipulate peoples minds.

Most of the conditions you decry exist and I dislike them as much as you do. What caused them is where we diverge.

First the things I agree with:

"Merka, you are F*d."

I am afraid you are correct, though possibly NOT for the reasons you give.

"you have the gall to make judgements on societies that are many hundreds of years older than your own like some pimply teenager moralising to his parents? "

--- Perfect description, best I remember, THAT is what got many Merkan colonist run out of Europe a long time ago... We never learn.

THE Disagreements:

"seem to spend your time killing each other and teaching your children how to kill each other. "

Actually it takes very little time out of our lives ( unless you are the target ) . I am not convinced that murders would be any less if there were no guns. As a famous Merkan once said "would it make you feel better if they just pushed them out a window instead of shooting them?" What is different here in Merka is that LOTS of people make LOTS of money making the murder as interesting, tear jerking and exciting as possible ( until the money flow drops off ) . I am talking about the MM ( Merkan Media ) truly the Milo Minderbinder of modern Merka.

We do not teach our children how to kill each other, if we did they would be much more efficient. What we have done is to NOT direct, discipline or train our children in how to deal with their emotions. We have not exposed them to violence and pain so they could have practice in dealing
with them, nor have we taught them how to think or structure problems. Add to this, that we tell our children -- "Be what ever you want to be when you grow up", "Just Do IT!" etc. Not even thinking how an emotionally disturbed ( i.e. normal ) child might interpret this.

The modern opinion by the masses of what makes a perfect child is:

1. The child must never be punished with pain only loosing their TV privileges.
2. The child must never have suffered physical or emotional pain.
3. The child must never have been offended, teased or degraded.
4. The child must never be told what to be when they grow up.
5. The child must not be taught morals, ethics or other forms of behavior against their will.
6. They must never be told the truth for they are too young and sensitive to withstand it.

Gee I guess the trial by fire technique is dead.

Throw in Hollywood, Bill Clinton, and our public school system and we wonder why our kids are going crazy. They were never socialized, and the most aggressive 10% will cause lots of problems and deaths in the future. It looks grim. For those Non Merkans out there. Watch out, I see the same thing starting with your children.

"Now you want to arm teachers for their protection....."

None of my gun nut friends think this is a sane idea. We do advocate letting the teachers use baseball bats like they did when I was in school. Fear and pain controls all, sensitivity only controls a few and lets the others run wild. An illustration: We are dealing with massive hormonal unbalances in children as they grow, throw in sex hormones and you have a really unstable child at many points in their life. Pain is the only thing that I know of, that can cut through those hormones. Do you know of anything other than severe pain or fear, that will cause an 18 year old to loose his erection when the girl is right there in front of his nose?

"You are all so against caring for anyone else that you'd rather shoot someone than give them a half a ham sandwich? "

Not true. Half a ham sandwich is a lot cheaper than a bullet. Now my daughter is a different matter. Actually Merkans are very soft hearted. They will give lots of ham sandwiches to those asking for and needing help. It's when they say: "Give me that sandwich so I can give it to someone else or I will blow your head off" that Merkans go berserk. Most of us Merkans do have berserker genes, brought over by the Europeans.

"You really have no idea, other than pinko commie reflex what it is to care for another, an unrelated stranger. you see it as weakness. others see it as civilisation. so be it."

Again not true. What really sets most of us off is being told that we have to, instead of being asked to. Until the government got involved in social services we didn't have a major homeless problem.... Until the government started trying to: play the races against each other, play the rich against the poor, the academics against Joe six pack, we helped each other a lot. I have taken many people into my home in the past, I have fed many people in the past, I have loaned people money in the past. Except for the loaning money part I will do it again in the future, if times get rough. Don't confuse the actions of our "out of control government" and "Media" with the feelings of the people themselves.

"It's your experience of the world. Well. I don't want it. I don't care for it. And, I say, don't ever come down under. Don't ever travel. Don't leave the hell hole you call home. Yanks go home. Concentrate, as in concentration camps. It'll be easier to be free of ya. "

I can tell that your perception of Merka really disturbs you even produces real pain. It doesn't feel good here either..... But... Might I point out that most of what you have heard is either directly from Merkan Media or from those drowning in it. The Merkan Media is a proven liar and distorter of the truth primarily composed of pimply a@@ed teenagers from a failed educational system moralizing to the public, for profit.
It is possible that they cannot be trusted and might give a false view of the emotional and moral aspect of the population.

"stay away from nz. we don't want you. we don't want your right to bear arms. go on kill each other, the world will be better for it. "

"stay away from nz. we don't want you. we don't want your right to bear arms. go on kill each other, the world will be better for it. "

"and i shall stay away from here. go on, pick up a gun and shoot an american. You owe it to america to shoot an american. It's what you do best, that and tell the rest of us how to live. "

I realize you said the above in a state of high emotion, but stop and think about what you are advocating. The avocation of killing justified by the rationalization that, "The world ( we ) will be better for it" has caused almost as much killing as the statement "My god is better than your god". Those of us who have lived through a blood bath never bring up a rationalization for killing for fear it may start someone off.

I really think that it is not the killings in the US that upsets everyone ( I mean who really likes a Merkan anyway ) but the fact that we; "tell the rest of you how to live. " even though we don't have a clue.


"I'm afraid the bankers will direct America into a new large scale war to channel these hatreds.

"At least they will try it and China, who else?, will be the target. "

A real worry and probably true, though I feel many besides the bankers will be involved.

One way to prevent against this type of socialist future in America would be a self-organization of the ethnic groups in order to resist these prospects. "

Duh... Obviously you haven't been here and tried that. Women, the different ethnic groups and the elderly have all been turned into their own worst enemies. They can't even agree internally with themselves much less get the different groups to agree. I think most of this is because the government for political vote reasons has turned all those groups against each other. I put it into the FAT CHANCE category.

Merka needs something to hate, an enemy. Right now we are using ourselves as the target but if China or anyone else gives the sightest excuse we will switch.

Pardon the dark humor at times but it is too grim without it.

(Mon May 25 1998 14:59 - ID#410215)
..... Second Part .....

EJ -

I own all of HSTs works, and reading them is an ongoing activity. It began when I was 14 years old and will continue until I die. I have written here before that HST is the finest writer of our generation. This is like comparing platinum to gold, there is nothing to compare.

There are many fine writers with many fine voices. Once in a generation or century comes one who has a truly unique perspective and the ability and talent to invite the world inside to peer at itself through new eyes. HST is such a man, and the world is better for it. His frenzied apocalyptic rantings are balance by razor sharp observation and a rabid unwillingness to compromise the Truth, whatever It may be, and wherever It may be found.

The movie does him an injustice. It shows HST as a drug addled paranoid. While this is a pretty accurate description of this fellow, the movie did little to bring his words to life. It is the words, after all, that keep me interested, and these are words I can read time and again.

What was true yesterday, is probably still true today.

Regarding Gun Control:

Prohibition has never, and will never work in a free society. If the demand is there, the contraband will appear, always. The only way to effectively fight this is to trash the Constitution and give the State unprecedented powers of intrusion into our lives in order to enforce this prohibition.

Witness the drug war. How is it that one may loose his property and assets, without ever having gone to court or even been found guilty? The Government shat all over due process in the national zeal to stop drugs. We are a far worse nation today than when the drug war started. This disintegration is due, in a large part, to this very "war".

Gun ownership is ultimately to protect oneself from the Government. That they kill burglars, rapists, and little cute fuzzy animals are all side benefits. A well armed populace will never be defeated or overthrown. Forget that the government has lots more guns. The Afghanis proved that a refusal to quit and a determination to the death will beat any superpower with superior forces.

We leaned this in "Nam, yes?


(Mon May 25 1998 15:09 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Tax Payer's expected to provide jobs EH! Education was supplied by Tax Payer's
ay 25, 1998

Some 15 million Iranians need jobs in next decade

TEHRAN, May 25 ( Reuters ) - Some 15 million graduates will join Iran's workforce over the next decade and most will have to turn to the private sector for jobs, a government official said in remarks published on Monday.

Deputy Industries Minister Akbar Torkan said government agencies could not absorb more than 20 percent of the graduates, the daily Iran News said.

"Torkan said that if the government was to employ an extra 10 million graduates, an investment of some $20 billion would be needed," the paper said.

Torkan was speaking at a conference in Tehran on productivity. Nearly a third of Iran's population of more than 60 million is aged between 11 and 24 and 800,000 new job-seekers enter the market each year, an official at Iran's Statistical Centre said recently.

Economists say the number of jobs that must be created is closer to one million a year. Officially, unemployment hovers around nine percent but economists say it is nearer 15 percent and rising.
( ( Gulf newsroom, +971 4 607 1222, fax +971 4 626982, ) )

(Mon May 25 1998 15:13 - ID#31868)
I love ya least I know when you say something you mean it...gulp to ya...NAMASTE'

(Mon May 25 1998 15:14 - ID#342315)
6pak re provide jobs
Looks like a precursor to US situation down the road. Cradle to the grave will get you

(Mon May 25 1998 15:16 - ID#31868)
Cradle to the Grave,..................a great Leo Kottke song....NAMASTE'

(Mon May 25 1998 15:19 - ID#290118)
To Robnoel an Tolerant1
Ditto - Double Ditto
On this day we should remember.
And we should vow not to let it happen again -if we can help it.
Some of these other defenders of the socialist/liberal/blood-sucking parasitic creed will come running to us to "please help us!"
Please God, that we do not have to go to WAR.
We shall try the democratic, within-the-system, free speech, and free press methods to preserve what we have left of our liberties.
If pushed into a corner - like our predecessors in the 1700's
We will come out fighting.
My dad did his duty for five years in the Pacific in WWII.
Now the duty passes to me.
Robnoel - Tolerant1 and I stand with you.
Together we can wreak some havoc on the treasonous slime.
We may go down - but it will be costly - to them.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:21 - ID#410215)


The hook is set

Those who follow this jokester

Astound me with their wide eyed naivet

Get a clue: It is a Hoax to sell books

And increase traffic on an Internet site

And you all are dancing the jig

With nary a thought into the reason

Of, why?

I know, I know

What harm does he do?

None to me, for I know he is a crock

Others here seem to be making financial decisions

Based on what this guy says

They deserve what they get

They were warned well in advance

No sympathy or empathy to be found

For those who are so easily misled

Grow up


(Mon May 25 1998 15:24 - ID#153102)
When will we know we are in the corner ?

(Mon May 25 1998 15:32 - ID#153102)
You could be published on USA Gold if you wanted to. Relax.
Read HST.
Fantasize about Afghan and Viet freedom fighters in North America.
Go Platinum. Make car go. FEMA bus, too.

The only thing that's going to kill the parasites is if enough hosts just get up and leave while they can.

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 15:34 - ID#24135)
Top Stuff ..
Hardcase ..
I hope Salty's not too mad to read it.....
If he does, I'll mail him half a ham sandwich ..

(Mon May 25 1998 15:37 - ID#290118)
We will know it when we feel it.
Being "in the corner" or "having our backs to the sea"
will be recognized by a gut feeling - I can not nail it down.
Individually - many have been pushed into that corner already.
Farmers in the midwest.
Miners in the mountains.
Loggers in the northwest.
Parents in our schools.
As a nation - or a viable portion of it - when they
1 ) come to collect our guns as has been done in other countries
2 ) come to confiscate our GOLD, SILVER and PLATINUM
3 ) come to forcefully redistribute our food stores to the needy
4 ) succeed in "persuading" most kids to turn in their parents.
5 ) have our armed services - on our soil - commanded by foreigners.
6 ) restrict the Internet so we can not do as we are doing now.

There are other ingredients - many of which have come to pass in a small scale some places and nationwide in other respects.

I can not predict which straw will be the final one.
But eventually we will have our "tea party" and Lexington.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:37 - ID#410215)
..... Mozel .....

I am published here:

A more ballanced view, yes?

John Disney__A
(Mon May 25 1998 15:38 - ID#24135)
Dont be MEAN ....

Another is just a guy trying to get a few clients .. I know
what he feels like.
Go plat go .. kill smog .. make air CLean .. make my car nice.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:40 - ID#287193) panda ???..
Thank you for posting the Supercharts re: gold & silver.

That looks negative for silver.

How do you like the Omega Supercharts.

In the early 80's I spend 2 big ones on System Writer Plus.

Never liked the program. Had always problems with the data downloads.

( Omega still keeps in touch with old customers ) but on other threads I hear about the old problems with data downloads other than the "DIAL".

Would appreciate your opinion.


(Mon May 25 1998 15:41 - ID#153102)

(Mon May 25 1998 15:42 - ID#344308)


balanced bro'.....balanced.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:43 - ID#31868)
In the immortal words of a fine American soldier..."NUTS."

(Mon May 25 1998 15:44 - ID#286279)
our guns
About 50% of urban households in the USA have a firearm. Nearby, Thousand Oaks has much higher percentage of households with guns and every year TO tops the list of safest cites. I know every household on my block has a gun. Folks around here assume that all Camarillans have a gun at home. Just ordinary everyday folks, not wealthy or upscale like TO or Santa Barbara. Lines at the grocery are longish because people tend to chatter with the checkers and each other. Camarillans fight over who gets to go second at a stopsign. The kids I see pouring out of the local high school are all different colors. They just received top national scholastic honors. Maybe we're not on that safe city list because we don't have a crime rate.

FBI statistics are revealing that when a state liberalizes CCW laws so that its easier to get a concealed carry weapons permit, crime goes down. Every time.

There are many things cheaper, easier to get and lots more efficiently lethal than guns. Lets hope criminals and crazed maniacs never figure that out.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:48 - ID#225273)
Rising Sun & LYDX
Rising Sun,
I am frustrated by LYDX. But I know it will be a great gold mine in the future. But with the low price of the metal, management is just doing very little to move the project forward.
Also, sentinent on these small Canadian mining shares has continued to wane this year even as the POG has risen. So the shares continue to drift lower relative to the POG.
The company is in the process of moving its 3,000 TPD mill onto the property. This is a big job.
Also, it's still trying to get permits to sink the mining shaft.
I used to think, and even stated on this forum, that by the time gold hit $320, LYDX would outperform both ABX and PDG combined. I now see that perspective was wrong. But if you move the POG up to $380, then I think that statement is correct.
This is because by the time gold reaches $380, LYDX management will have swung back into action to move the stock and to begin production. On these Canadian juniors, marketing and promotion is a meaningful part of the process of determining share price. Right now, LYDX management is out to lunch.
So there you have it. LYDX is a company whose shares are tremendously undervalued. But this won't change until the POG rises substantially. This means that LYDX is highly leveraged to the POG as ultimately these shares will not only become fully valued, but become overvalued as well.
Currently, C$.22, a $400 POG would put LYDX into production and bring a share price closer to C$1.00. ( There are 154 million shares out after last years' 20-for-1 split. )

Hope that helps,

The Preacher

(Mon May 25 1998 15:52 - ID#404246)
RJ --

Have you read Norman Spinrad? I think a few of his are in the same class as HST.

tolerant1 --

Thanks, I love the kid part.... NAMASTE'

mozel --

I don't think organizing people, as in the past will be the major part of the next American revolution. I think communication, primarily the dispersal of information giving vast numbers of individuals the power of mass destruction will give a whole new meaning to the word chaos. And as we all know hackers can get around anything so the government won't be
able to stop it. We could find out what a society is like where everyone is armed with a super weapon. The concept of guarding your supply lines was never considered when America was built.

Worth thinking about...

Year 2000 thought ---

If somehow the delivery of fertilizer to the large farms is stooped or delayed past planting time we could suddenly be facing a large food shortage 3 - 6 months later. The land is so lifeless that nothing will grow without fertilizer.

(Mon May 25 1998 15:52 - ID#410215)
..... JD .....

You are a clever and sly fellow

I would enjoy blowing the froth

Off a few cold ales with you some day


(Mon May 25 1998 15:54 - ID#255151)

Hey, Gold is going to $30,000 any day now. That's 3-0-0-0-0! ( it doesn't flow in the same direction as oil, you know )

(Mon May 25 1998 15:59 - ID#342315)
tolerant1 Kottke?
I guess I was out when Kottke come on. I don't know this one??

(Mon May 25 1998 16:00 - ID#153102)
Clinton and FEMA are three steps ahead of you and lengthening their lead.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:10 - ID#257148)
Pax vobiscum
Yes, indeed it was well said. Crusty knows me by now, knows I'll pick up that half a ham sandwich one day. Sometimes my spleen gets vented and the bile lands across the Pacific in merka. I was really steamed about some stuff that went down here a spin ago, many posters were slamming alternative systems of government. Yes, there were a few home truths spun amongst the majority bs of my rant. Had I an editor I would have reined in some of more outlandish statements. Sometimes I feel responsible for holding up an ugly mirror both to myself and to those around, doesn't make me popular. Truth is, there are many types of social organisation, quite astounding to believe that the merkan model should be emulated by societies that have existed for centuries and millenia before merka. But my rant had no place here.

Eddie, so be it. I understand your change of heart but it saddens me, it wasn't aimed at you, or at anyone in particular. You'll always be Eddie to me.

Yes, please. I shall be grateful if you can assist with the assaying kit, I can send a bank draft before you order.

Recent Aussie University think tank says NZ may be next domino to fall. Expect the NZ$ to go into a tail-spin in next day or two. ALready down 20%+ from beginning of year. Aren't floating currencies supposed to, you know, float, rather than sink?

Flotsam and Jetsam

(Mon May 25 1998 16:20 - ID#238422)
You got some good responses from some people in regard
to gun control. Now, if you think long and hard, there
is a simple thing to consider: who is a criminal - it's
a person who do not obey law.

Do you expect criminal
to follow law and not to obtain or use gun?


Are you serious or just kidding? Do you WANT
honest people to surrender their guns to make criminals
feel better about their own safety?

Are you advocate for criminals???

It's high time for you to grow...a little bit.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:20 - ID#153102)
Does this mean we can use auratorville as a staging point for The Big Push ?

You broke a lot of hearts in Texas, feller.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:24 - ID#31868)
send me your address - - a gift...gulp to ya! Namaste'

(Mon May 25 1998 16:25 - ID#433172)
My Say
One day we will melt all these dam guns down and fight with sticks. Should every country in the world have an A bomb? If they have one I want one, in each pocket. In a gun fight it's the gun that does the thinking, even before the fight it's an easy option. Guns or armaments increase power for the entity that has them, the very thing most of you are objecting to in government you want to exercise yourselves. What I'm saying is that gun under the pillow has dreams of it's own, don't give a dam about you. We are fractured, the gun is oporunistic.
I have the finest guns money can buy. There isn't an easy awnser.
Alberich- It escapes me how the bankers would go after the Chinese, who bankrolls them now? The Chinese are flooding the U.S. with cheap guns, I' sure they get a chuckle out of that. The Isreal-China weapon carry bothers me. I've enjoyed your comment, and especially apprecieate your views on pre-christian Europe.

Idealism is a niffty jiggle for an immature mind. Makes no diff, economic,religious,ethnic,gold yeah yeah. It always ends up in the same place.

Thanx for info on BIG CHARTS

(Mon May 25 1998 16:27 - ID#340459)
Toronto Gold closed 300.25, Does anyone have spot silver, please

(Mon May 25 1998 16:28 - ID#258142)
Dow/Gold correlation
Here is an update of Dow/Gold correlation chart. Gold and Dow values are normalized - i.e. maximum value for given period for both Dow and Gold is taken as 1 and plotted at the left vertical axes, while at the right we have value of correlation coefficient between Dow and Gold for 90 trading days. As we can see, correlation is still positive, but declining. Todays value is +0.68

(Mon May 25 1998 16:30 - ID#258142)
Delphi (Dow/Gold correlation)
Here is an update of Dow/Gold correlation chart. Gold and Dow values are normalized - i.e. maximum value for given period for both Dow and Gold is taken as 1 and plotted at the left vertical axes, while at the right we have value of correlation coefficient between Dow and Gold for 90 trading days. As we can see, correlation is still positive, but declining. Todays value is +0.68

(Mon May 25 1998 16:33 - ID#257148)
Deep in the heart of Texas
Auratorville welcomes all the good burghers of kitco. Not sure what you mean by the big push. Is that like pushing on string to make a better world?

Yeah, I bet I broke hearts in Texas with that. But mo, what's right in Texas ain't right down here. My friends have recently been astonished as I have advocated the right to bear arms as being entirely right and appopriate in merka. I owe that understanding to you and many others on this site. I have even said here, that were I to return ( for the first time this life ) to Texas, I'd bear arms too. Appropriate behaviour in different societies. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I had no idea that this day is memorial day, and that day commemorates your fallen in battle. I thought that was called veterans' day. I can add bad timing to my unqualities.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:34 - ID#153102)
Never thought about that ideals for an immature mind quite that way before. But, you know, you may have something there. Looks like America is all grown up now and don't need them immature ideals no more. Seems to me they quoted Clinton saying something very much like that.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:34 - ID#286279)
Come to USA and go on a camping tour by small bus with about a dozen other people from all over the world. You'll all share chores like cooking and clothes washing. You'll travel through several states seeing the sights, you'll visit a big city and small towns. You can do things like hiking, rock climbing, wandering around small towns meeting people. The tours are cheap. I know a fellow from Waikanae that has done this four times now and plans to do it again. He wants to get to all the states. You are gonna change your mind about merkans if you do this, I guarantee it. Stop at LA and I'll come see you.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:35 - ID#45173)
robnoel, Avalon, gagrad, panda, John Disney, RJ, oris
No surprise that I got a strong anti-gov't, anti-gun control position from this thoughtful crew of Liberatrian-ish gold bugs. What suprises me is that this group of otherwise independent thinkers is so susceptible to the manipulations of gun lobbies. There are few more obvious and well documented facts than this: the risk of having a gun is much greater than the risk of not having one. So evident is this that every developed nation on earth that does not have strong gun lobbies ( that is, all but the US ) does not allow its citizens to keep in their homes dangerous weapons designed for killing humans. Europeans and Asians, who have greater historical justification for fearing government oppression than we do in the US, have struck a different deal with their governments: "prove that you will protect us from criminals and we'll agree to not own guns. In fact, we don't want to own guns, because they are unsafe in our homes with our children." Here we make it easy and inexpensive for criminals to own guns by flooding them with weapons, so here that deal does not work. The police cannot protect us. There are too many weapons around. The police are outgunned. Talk to any urban cop. They are for gun control. It's different, of course, in rural areas, and that's why I made the point that the one-gun-law-fits-all is problematic. But no one has figured out how to stop the flood of weapons from places where they are present less risk to places where they do.

The undercurrent in all of this fantacy about protecting yourself from criminals and an evil mega-government with a gun is that you can be free from government yet still have water to drink, roads to drive on, schools to send your kids to, an FAA so that ALL the planes don't carry oxygen canisters, courts to lock up the bad buys, M1 tanks to keep the big bad guys away, etc., etc. If the worst should come to pass from Y2K and there is a breakdown in order, you will never see gangs roaming the streets. In fact, at night you'll see no one at all on the street because under martial law you will be arrested if you're outside without authorization, and shot if you're caught looting. That's the way it's done. And you, as a citizen, will be very glad that there is a government there doing this to maintain order because you and your gun aren't going to do you much good against even two guys with jars of gasoline who want to get you. If you are in your cabin in the woods, you'll sure want to have at least a big shot gun because the national guard can't cover enough territory to ensure your safety. Still, alone, you can only do so much. A couple of guys with jars of gasoline can do you in. Bummer.

To me, the irony of all of this is that as Americans we get to enjoy our immature fantacy of self-defense and free life without government because our government is so liberal. In the past and present in many countries, and in a possible future in the US, in less liberal times, if you represent an group that openly challenges the right to protect law and order that the community has vested in their government, in a less prosperous and happy time when the community values the safety of order more than the safety of civil liberties, the government will go after you and destroy you without negotiation or fanfare, and your neighbors will roast weenies on the embers of your club house.

panda, I agree that depressions are a natural part of the cycle of capital markets. The governments of the world have been trying to supress one for so long it's anyone's guess how deap the next one will go to clear out all the debt. I fear, very deap.

RJ, I know you're not a gold bug, but are you really a sucker for gun lobby marketing?

Thx for reading.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:38 - ID#286230)
What is the explanation
First--- I don't care what the US does with its gun laws.
However-- a question. There are about 4-5 million people living in the Toronto area. Except for police and armoured car drivers there are about 40 people licensed to carry a hand gun. The number of people shot to death with guns -- hand guns and rifles-- is about 50 and this includes criminals shooting each other. Why is this?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 16:43 - ID#384350)
Robnoel, Mozel
@Robnoel-Good point on cars, I was going to post something similar, didn't have it all thought out though.

@Mozel, in re: Klinton's FEMA Y2K-related takeover. Thanks for making me think. I too have thought of the possibility, but not in such detail.

Now, as every other country seems to copy the worst of the Evil Empire, will there be anywhere to run?

Rising Sun
(Mon May 25 1998 16:47 - ID#413372)

Thank you for your input.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:52 - ID#33024)
gold: elliot waves.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:53 - ID#411163)
Selby + Mozel
Selby-the reason for the small death by gun rate is lack of guns? The MURDER rate in Canada is about the same as the USA if you consider knives and poison.
Mozel-FEMA is ANOTHER welfare program. In a disaster FEMA gives to those who didn't have insurance and didn't save any money for a rainy
day. I just went through it-THEY ARE A TOTAL JOKE. You must have have some dealings with them also I see.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:53 - ID#153102)
This "ideals of the Founders are immature" mantra is going to play in Peoria, I predict.

"To me, the irony of all of this is that as Americans we get to enjoy our
immature fantacy of self-defense and free life without government
because our government is so liberal. In the past and present in many
countries, and in a possible future in the US, in less liberal times, if
you represent an group that openly challenges the right to protect law
and order that the community has vested in their government, in a less
prosperous and happy time when the community values the safety of order
more than the safety of civil liberties, the government will go after
you and destroy you without negotiation or fanfare, and your neighbors
will roast weenies on the embers of your club house."

Hardcase, Squirrel, Robnoel, Tolerant1... don't build no clubhouse. 'cause your right to self-defense is immature and the EJ's will roast weenies over the embers of your Waco.

If you boys have any respect for ol' JohnD's trading savvy, you might want to give a little heed to the old confederate's political savvy, too.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 16:56 - ID#384350)
Schools are institutions
A bell rings and like a Pavlovian dog the student gets up and shuffles to another room. Indoctrination, Propragation, Instititution.

And How did all them poor blacks end up getting cheap guns and crack cocane. Think it was an accident of nature?

(Mon May 25 1998 16:57 - ID#286230)
Amazing I never knew that. Where do I look to read up on the number of murders by knives and poison in Canada. Must be tens of thousands a year.

(Mon May 25 1998 16:59 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro: A car is like a gun as a radio is like an electric
chair. A radio can kill you if it falls in the bathtub but an electric chair is definately going to kill you--that's what it's made for.

Love George's comment: a gun has a mind of its own. This reminds me that you might wonder whay I have such strong feelings about this. Here is why.

I was at a party a few years ago, a retirement party for a homicide detective in Boston. He'd been on the force for 40 years. I asked him, "Do you think everyone should own a gun." He says, "I don't think anyone should own a gun. I won't have one in the house. Keep mine at the station." I ask, "What's the most common type of homicide?" He says, "Man shoots wife, wife shoots husband." I ask, "When you get there, what's the first thing they say to you." He says, "They say, 'I just wanted her to shut up.'"


(Mon May 25 1998 17:05 - ID#153102)
FEMA may be a joke to you, but I am more than a little sure they are going to have the last laugh.

Gusto Oro
(Mon May 25 1998 17:06 - ID#377235)
@Gun Control
They'll get my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers. They already got Al Gore's gun, but that was an honest mistake. --Al G.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:07 - ID#286279)
That's strange. The 40 year LAPD retired homicide detective I know always packed a pistol and he gave guns to his friends.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:10 - ID#411112)
EJ...some facts you missed every Swiss citizen has a semi-auto weapon in the home,every South

African has a do I know I lived in both served in one,come on EJ...get a grip,you have been brain washed,guns do not cause anything,I will grant you this are there people who should not be anywhere near fire arms question,could there be some middel ground ...maybe,however I do not want to rely on 911 to save my ass,you may have faith in the system I do not therefore,as I was taught in the Boy Scouts,be prepared......anyway when the sh one t hits the fan,you can come to my place I have a spare

(Mon May 25 1998 17:10 - ID#43460)
EJ, I'm not going to try to change your prejudices
but those who give credence to his statement "...the risk of having a gun is much greater than the risk of not having one..." might ponder this parallel. ( Despite its falshood EJ's factoid is one of the most repeated truisms of the HCI movement. Notwithstanding the fact that the US childhood firearms addicent death rate is so low it is 1/3 of the death rate from autoerotic suffocation during masturbation! ) IMHO

The risk of serious death or injury from the use of DPT vaccine is approximately two orders of magnitude greater than the risk of dying from one of the three diseases it immunizes against. In countries where the vaccine is optional and large numbers of people choose not to immunize their children the death rate among two year olds decreases sharply, that is until an epidemic breaks out. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 17:11 - ID#286279)
My friend wasn't THAT old when he retired. Maybe he was on the force for only 30 years.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:12 - ID#227238)
EJ: The course is entirely clear. Guns should not be allowed to fall into the hands of men who have irritating wives. ....... Don't know what I shall do, though. My wife has a license to carry but I don't. But I damn sure won't irritate her.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:13 - ID#341189)
Homicides rates by whatever means in Canada, US and other countries

(Mon May 25 1998 17:18 - ID#411112)
WHAT A WEEKEND.....COMMIES,GUNS,GOLD and yes GOD,thanks to Allan....this is what I live for...its

what guys died for that we can do this,by the way anyone here stood in front of the Wall in Washington DC,and not shed a tear...some openly sob.........lets not forget what today is all about

(Mon May 25 1998 17:21 - ID#335190)
May 25, 1998

Canadian mining companies vow to block tax changes

TORONTO ( Reuters ) - A coalition representing Canada's biggest mining companies predicted that proposed changes to federal income tax laws will discourage investment, reduce profits and kill jobs in Canada's struggling resource sector.

In effect, the resource allowance means mining companies face corporate tax rates that are 25 percent below those of other industries, though this tax break is partly offset by royalties and other levies imposed by Canada's ten provinces.

Mining accounted for C$26.2 billion, or 3.8 percent, of Canada's total gross domestic product ( GDP ) in 1997. More than 350,000 Canadians work for mining companies or in a sector related to mining.

For instance, Australia's key mining states, Western Australia, Queensland and New South Wales, tax base metal
companies at a rate of about 50 percent of net income.
Canada taxes its base metal producers at a rate between 15 and 33 percent -- with Newfoundland imposing the harshest taxes and the Northwest Territories the most lenient.

"Canadian mining tax rates are lower than in other countries," Mintz told Reuters. "We do anticipate that they would pay more tax. It would go up about two or three percent under our proposals, but they would still have a very low corporate tax."

He estimated that Canadian mining companies would pay an average of 24.75 percent tax if his proposals were implemented.

Not good enough, said mining insiders who have pledged to intensify their lobbying of rural members of parliament and key officials in Canada's finance and natural resources departments.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:22 - ID#286230)
Hey Rack
Drop down a coup of posts to Carls and learn what the murder rates are. I think you and Mozel have a lot in common.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:23 - ID#153102)
What is today all about ?
People who were maimed and killed for immature ideals that most Americans don't even believe in any more ?
What a crock.

The last two American Revolutions were done at the top and the next will be also.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:23 - ID#45173)
sam: Guess the cop you know has a different way of looking at
things. The gun that makes one man feel strong may make another man feel weak. Ultimately, you own a gun because you are afraid. Whether the fear is justified or imagined only time will tell. I have more fear of a gun in my home than a home with no gun. That belief will change only when I see sufficient credible evidence that the opposite is true.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:27 - ID#335190)
MAI @ Canadian's fighting, and being arrested. Freedom EH! Corporation's in Control
May 25, 1998

Police arrrest 160 in anti-MAI protest

MONTREAL ( CP ) -- The start of a conference on globalization of the world's economy was delayed today when more than 300 demonstrators tried to block access to the hotel where it was being held.

About 160 people were arrested as riot squad police carrying batons and wearing helmets and flak jackets moved in, forming lines along the sidewalk to contain the protest.

The arrested face charges of mischief and interfering with the work of a police officer. The protesters demanded that Canada withdraw from all negotiations on the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, which creates an equal playing field for corporations to seek international contracts.

Negotiations on the agreement have been temporarily suspended.

This is the fourth year for the international economic conference, which will examine European markets since the creation of the European Union.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:32 - ID#26793)
Brazilian stocks and Mexican peso slide sharpely.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:35 - ID#153102)
Just wait til you find out what Clinton has got in store for you.
Canadians are screwed, screwed, screwed.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:41 - ID#26793)
Canadian mining companies face increased taxes.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:42 - ID#286230)
Your history reveals you. Go talk to somebody who still thinks you have something to say.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:42 - ID#411112)
Mozel..what I said,.. civilians don't get never had never has nothing to do with right or

wrong policys of is about people who wear the uniform with pride and give the ultimate sacrifice.......all who died did so to protect freedom for you and me,

(Mon May 25 1998 17:43 - ID#286279)
Last post on guns. My girlfriend was afraid of my guns when we first started living together about eight years ago. She believed all that stuff you believe. My guns stay hidden away locked up in a gun safe. I don't talk about them much. In fact over the years she started talking about them more than I do. She now feels much safer because I have them. She even asked me the other day if I had enough ammunition! Recently she gave her 29 year old daughter her fathers shotgun.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:50 - ID#153102)
@sam @robnoel
Yeah, I don't think this "The Gun had a mind of its own" defense is going to hold up at trial either.

robnoel Mystic sentiments; reminds me of bagpipes playing.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:55 - ID#290118)
Gianni Dioro__A - Your posts pretty much describe Lake County, Colorado.
Gianni Dioro__A on Sun May 24 1998 16:23 wrote:
I used to live in a Socialist country like the one Selby described. It was terrible. Double-digit unemployment rates. The country was polluted. Most everyone was disenchanted, and grumpy. People struggled to pay their bills to the state monopolies for heat, electricity. People couldn't afford to eat out. Taxes were burdensome. The Mob grows bigger every day. Whether a country is a socialist state like Sweden, the former USSR or one like the US it is the same: A few families ( the usurer ) end up owning and controlling most all the resources and industry of a given nation. The people become enslaved to work for these families.
and on 16:27 added
I almost forgot to mention that the country was overrun with foreigners, just like ancient Rome.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:58 - ID#286230)
People kill people --guns don't.
Getting rid of guns won't stop shootings

People cause traffic accidents--cars don't.
Getting rid of cars wont stop traffic accidents.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:58 - ID#286230)
People kill people --guns don't.
Getting rid of guns won't stop shootings

People cause traffic accidents--cars don't.
Getting rid of cars wont stop traffic accidnts.

(Mon May 25 1998 17:59 - ID#408170)
Bumper Sticker
"Guns don't kill people postal workers do"

(Mon May 25 1998 18:00 - ID#227238)
6pak: Interesting post on the MAI. But damned uncordial of you Canadians. NWO cometh. Thou shalt not stand in its way.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:02 - ID#255190)
No nation is pure in its motives or actions. There is always folly in the hearts of men. But give honor where honor is due. America is the sum of her citizenry, both banal and noble. Her wars have been both self serving and self sacrificing as well. Generally her citizens have desired peace and to live and let live. We are not a war mongering people. Those who have died in war agreed to serve and did so with honor.

At least honor their intentions.

Remember, we helped Germany and Japan rebuild. We knew they had a place in the affairs of the world. We could have taken unholy vengence on these nations but did not do so.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:08 - ID#287193)
Oh Allen(USA)...
Do you have no answer for a brother. Do it for the Lord you love so much!
How about Jo 3:16+17.?

(Mon May 25 1998 18:09 - ID#153102)
Yes, we honor their illusions.

The people pay for the sins they allow their leaders to do.
I think there is Bible on that.

Did you happen to read the post about the two nations that have been forced to accept the world's debt ?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 18:12 - ID#384350)
I also forgot to add there were homeless people, drunks and beggars on the street.

With the exception of NYC, begging is far more common in London or Paris than in most any other US city I know.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:14 - ID#286230)
Which socialist country did you live in?

(Mon May 25 1998 18:18 - ID#411112)
mozel...bagpipes always stir the soul,and gives courage to the weak


(Mon May 25 1998 18:19 - ID#45173)
GOD I LOVE THIS SITE! Where else can you rant about guns and
politics and spew theories about totally unpredictable political and economic changes and their effect on the price of certain beautiful yellow metal!

Thanks to all for a great day at Kitco. Off to do some work on the yard and then.. time for drinks!

Before I go, for the Americans here please join me in a moment of silence for those who fought and died bravely to preserve the rights we enjoy today.

p.s. I do own a target pistol. Guns are cool, just not in my house.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:20 - ID#411112)
Allan,thanks for the EMail,no change I'am aware of...what have you seen....

the three men I admire the most ?

(Mon May 25 1998 18:21 - ID#153102)
You make the sound of bagpipes into a kind of a whisky for the ears.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 18:24 - ID#384350)
I have almost been killed several times because of automobiles, mostly with myself behind the wheel. I crashed my car 1 1/2 yrs ago, now I don't drive.

Cars pollute, destroy community, turn people into ants. Personally I think cars should be a luxury, used for a Sunday drive, not used to go to work, school, or shopping.

Robnoel brought up the point that cars kill more kids than guns. Now, I don't want to live somewhere where I need to put bars on my windows. I've never owned a gun, but I hate the idea that a criminal govt tells me that I can't own one.

In Switzerland most every house has a gun, they don't have a problem.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:28 - ID#411112)
mozel.....give a man a jigger of whiskey and the call of the pipes,freedom will survive in the

hearts of the brave...6Pak great post thanks

(Mon May 25 1998 18:30 - ID#153102)
@Moments of Silence
I'd rather have my kith and kin who died for immature ideals, in vain, overseas here to tend his lonesome mother than all the moments of silence of all the EJ's in the USA.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:39 - ID#30116)
Servhard --

I have Supercharts and Trade Station 4 Real time. For end of day data I use Worden brothers. I have had no problems with end of day data or SC/TS 4.0. Omega commands a high $ for their product. I don't know why, other than we're willing to pay for it? :- ) )

Worden Brothers has just released a newer version of their TeleChart 2000 software for Windows 95/98/NT. I've tried it, but haven't made up my mind yet. The daily download cost $1.99 for all of the data in their system along with 20 minute delayed intraday data. That's it! $1.99 per day. Beats the cost of real time data. The Worden system downloads over the Internet. They also provide fundamental data on Saturdays for around $3.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:41 - ID#43450)
Waitin' for the gold bull to run
Gianni: I believe the law in Switzerland is that every able-bodied man between the ages of 18 and 55 must keep a machine gun and suitable ammunition readily available in his home.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:46 - ID#286230)
I believe you are correct. The 18 to 55 year olds are in the army or the reserves. Last I read about 1 person is killed with the stored army guns each year.

(Mon May 25 1998 18:47 - ID#30116)
Donald @17:32
So if the Mexican Peso crashes again, do we bail them out again?

While we're at it, wouldn't what the U.S. Govt. did ( Re. Mexican bailout I ) constitute the crime of hiding a cash transaction? I know that if I tried to 'structure' a financial transaction so as to hide the real cash flow, I would be in deep doo doo with you know who. :- ) )

(Mon May 25 1998 18:52 - ID#30116)
If guns are so deadly, why don't we
ban cancer and heart disease. Of course we would have to control what everyone eats, how ( much ) they exercise, and their general health practices. After all, some body ( as opposed to somebody ) has to pay them damn taxes... :- ) )

Long weekends on Kitco.... :- )

(Mon May 25 1998 18:54 - ID#247447)
Y2K Sighting!
I received a letter today from the insurance company that I purchase by business insurance from. Since I do not have a scanner I will just type some of the relevant parts as they appeared in the letter:

"Do I Have a Year 2000 Problem?
Does your business:
- use a computer, fax machine, telephone, cell phone, cash register, time clock?
- have computer networks?
- use electroncially controlled production equipment or machinery?
- have automated burglary or fire alarms, sprinkler system or lighting systems?
- have computerized building access control?

If you have answered "yes" to any of those questions, you could have a Year 2000 Problem. problems associated with Electronic Date Recognition may occur at any time before, during, or after January 1, 2000. This may cause serious disrtuption to your operations or even threaten the survival of your business. It is vital that you give this your immedeiate personal attention.

Insurance Coverage?
Your insurance policy was never intended to provide insurance coverage for electronic date recofgnition problems. We will be issuing specific exclusions to confirm that we are not covering claims resulting from electronic date recognition deficiencies.

What do I Need to Do?
Your trade or professional association may be able to assist you.
We suggest that you inventory all your computer equipment, software systems and other electronic equipment - write to the individual vendors/suppliers concerning Year 2000 compliance or certification."

If these type of letters are starting to go out now , how long before the general public starts to feel the heat? How long till the clamoring for the government to "do something" starts?
Best to get your supplies taken care of in the next few months while a low profile is still possible.

Off to make a few bargains for the Ark!

(Mon May 25 1998 18:57 - ID#286230)
I hate to say it but I expect that some sort of government imposed penalty for half killing yourself and thereby increasing the cost of health care is going to happen before I get planted. Given the massive taxes on tobacco and alcohol that now help pay for the social medicine in Canada now I see no reason to keep fat and cholesterol out of the tax system. This means subsidies for farmers but they are in place now I believe

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 19:01 - ID#384350)
Credit Crunch?
Brazil's Bovespa index gapped lower this morning and held to close 2.19% lower. Could it be that banks faced with losses are being more cautious in their lending, and Brazil and Russia are in trouble? Next!

And EJ why did you direct your Radio/Car analogy at me, as opposed to Robnoel who brought it up? Is it personal?

And maybe you or someone else can tell us how many people die from radios in the bathtub compared to road accidents.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:04 - ID#286230)
Gianni Dioro__
Don't know about the comparison but I think everybody with a radio in the bathtub dies--except maybe battery operated radios.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:09 - ID#290118)
Catching up on my reading, esp. the socialist BS. Sorry about being late to the party.
Wonder no one posted this argument {maybe I havn't got to it yet}.
ROR, et al.
One of the major reasons why Europe could afford Socialist safety nets is because the U.S.of A. has born nearly all of the cost of defending Europe. We bailed their butts out twice - thrice counting the cold war. If Europe had born its share of its own defense it would not have been able to afford socialist safety nets. I am sick and tired of having a bunch of countries and individuals therein and theoreticians thereof badmouthing these United States and - at the same time - come running to us to save them {again}. And while our troops are stationed over there we prop up local European economies with on-post employment, soldiers spending money off-post, and lots of services and products that these installations buy from the local and national European economies. Even as we bear these costs - these same Socialist*%#&s want us to pick up a third of the tab for running the UN.
Good God - do we have a sign on our butts that says "kick me"?
Current examples - handwringing in Europe over Bosnia et al - but even though it is in Europe's backyard they won't take care of it themselves - they come pleading to the U.S. to help them.
Another example - which countries stand the most to lose from Iraq/Iran and other nutso middle-east rattlers of bio/chem/nuclear sabers? Europe of course - they are within range. But which country does Europe rely on to deal with these threats - you guessed it. And during the whole time we have some "Democratic Socialist" countries sticking a knife in our back.
People in these United States of America are STUPID!
Why do we continue to help those that slap us in the face.
Reminds me of the Colorado legislator a few years ago who was rabidly anti-handgun. But when her house got burglarized she ran next door to her gun-owning neighbor to ask for help.
Americans should pull our troops back home.
Our troops and bases would support local economies in the US instead of in Europe. And our men and women would be home when we need them {during Y2K}.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:10 - ID#286230)
Selby ( Squirrel ) ID#286230:
Which socialist country did you live in?

(Mon May 25 1998 19:11 - ID#287193)
@ panda
Thank you panda.
I will look at Tele Chart 2000.
Years ago I was heavy into commodities. ( now only in Can.stocks )
Most of the programs are worth the money for people that play most or all the exchanges. Now I use an end of day download ( ChartSmart ) which is
low in cost but allows only 2 Av. manipulations on the charts directly but it provides many sorting parameters.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:13 - ID#284255)
High Tech...The Boom/Bust Cycle of a Generation?

(Mon May 25 1998 19:15 - ID#268232)
Little boys talking about their guns.....
Give me a break!
Though I say little, I tune into Kitco to obtain informaiton and prognostication about AU and other metals markets. If I wanted to be subjected to right wing, paranoid, babble, there are many different sites with much smarter and more eloquent defenders of that juvenile, fantacy filled way of thinking. Please keep to the subject matter ladies and gentlemen or better yet, why don't you all leave this site and agree to meet somewhere where you can show each other your guns and talk about how cool it is to give your kids guns.....Real manly like.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:15 - ID#218253)
Yvan Auger Elliot comments on gold and the xau.
y Yvan Auger.

Precious Metals market summary

For the week ending May 22nd, 1998.
Gold Spot
B of Y
Silver Spot

The XAU waves are telling us...

May 22nd, 1998
Began at
Current Position

Commentary for Friday, May 22nd,: The XAU is stubburnly refusing to make up its mind. I can be stubburn too! If you
remember last week I turned bullish given the rather overlapping action we had for the past couple of weeks. Well, nothing
have changed so I stick to my guns.

Under the Wave Principle, this type of action strongly suggests the decline is a corrective move and we must expect a total
retracement. The Canadian index and most stock shows the same choppy pattern. A move above 86 will be the first indication
the XAU is moving back up to 93 with a chance to reach 99. In the very short term the XAU will either keep drifting lower
early this week with very good support located between 78-80 or will bounce back on Tuesday towards 83-84 before falling
back towards cited supports. That would be the last leg of this correction. Although not expected, closing below 78 might be
very bad news for the bulls. It would indicate the XAU was rather in a serie of 1's and 2's and falling hard in a serie of third
waves that will bring prices down to 60.

Gold is also about to jump out of the gate and I expect a gain of at least 7-8 dollars from current level. I think Gold is
correcting the decline from 314 to 295. Ideal target for this small correction is 307 which also fits the target for the current
small zigzag. If I am right and Gold does't move above the 307 resistance, we have to expect another round of selling that
could bring prices down to 292 and possibly all the way back to 280. That could be bad news for the XAU. Be careful.

See you on May 29th. Enjoy your long week-end!

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 19:15 - ID#384350)
GoodAsGold, Sellby Swiss Army
Amazing! Maybe 1 million machine guns and ammo widespread in Switzerland and only one death per year.

I wonder how many were killed on the Swiss roads last year?

(Mon May 25 1998 19:17 - ID#286230)
Which one Squirrel?
Squirrel ( Gianni Dioro__A - Your posts pretty much describe Lake County,
Colorado. ) ID#290118:
Copyright  1998 Squirrel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Gianni Dioro__A on Sun May 24 1998 16:23 wrote:
I used to live in a Socialist country like the one Selby described.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:19 - ID#286230)
Gianni Dioro_
Don't now but apparently it was one or less.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:20 - ID#290118)
Selby - you are correct in implying it is not that bad here, yet!
But reading Prometheus's posts and the description of Sweden in CHARACTER OF NATIONS - we are getting there fast. About 4/5ths of what Promey described fits this Lake County, CO - NOW! It may not be to the same degree as in some European Socialist countries but give us several more years {barring Y2K and a general uprising}.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:24 - ID#396249)
DaveW what ever rock you crawled out of go back heres your web page

(Mon May 25 1998 19:27 - ID#341312)
Your car safety remarks are all good reasons why YOU should not drive a car, not me. Where the hell do you get off telling me I shouldn't drive to work, school or wherever I please? As far as the pollution issue goes, that was true 25 years ago. Modern catalytic converters greatly reduce harmful emissions with virtually no performance or fuel economy reduction. Old cats robbed horsepower and were very inefficient about cleaning emissions. Note that the EPA or the media never shows you a chart with actual PPM concentrations of the 4 gasses they check vs year of manufacture. They can't. It would be obvious that the problem is already solved. Instead, they focus on percent reductions vs previous years. This way they can continue to pretend auto emissions are a problem and justify their existence. I'd also like to say I'm not against electric vehicles or mass transportation at all, provided it's not mandated by government agencies or financed by tax dollars. Let the free market decide and stop raising the emissions bar ever year. Have you heard about IM/240? It's a new 5 gas test all vehicles subject to emissions testing must pass. Implementation is proceeding slowly ( well, actually not, more on that later ) on state by state basis. Your car goes on a dynanometer at a state owned testing facility ( can't trust those private shops! ) and is run at varying RPM's for 240 sec. Many cars of course will fail this as they were designed to pass a 4-gas test at idle. The two states that have tried this, NJ and TX I believe, scrapped it due to citizen protest. Score two for the good guys. Here in my home state they couldn't even get a single contractor to bid on constructing the test facilities! I was ROFLOL when I read that in the daily rag. Now they say they're going to put up roadside sniffers to catch us "eco-criminals" in the act. I'm not too worried. The software probably won't work after 01/01/00 anyway. Of course, it's possible my car might not either. Either way I'm covered.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:27 - ID#268232)
Such is the small minded retort I expected from one such as you. Again, please keep to the subject matter that Kitco was created for.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:29 - ID#286230)
Actually I live in socialist Canada and it isn't as bad as described. Before using examples and accepting them from others--check whether they are talking about places like England Holland Canada OR East Germany Russia or any of the recently "freed' countries that the collapse of the USSR produced. The chat about dictatorial socialism and democratic socialism isn't just an academic topic. The clap trap about waiting for 8 weeks for a phone in a Democratic socialist society being of any relevance is an example of the BS this site is famous for. I can drive to the nearest mall buy any one of 30 different telephones take it home and plug it in less than 20 minutes.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:31 - ID#342397)
Mozel @ your 11:29,
It troubles me to say that I and a number of me close friends agree with you. We have become "portable". But, where to go??

(Mon May 25 1998 19:35 - ID#396249)
daveW...the markets all closed DA,I have not seen your post before,this is the topic,what your

socialists buddys don't want to play with you

(Mon May 25 1998 19:36 - ID#335190)
FWIW @ Canadian Interest Rate Hike. Labour cost pressure=Inflation? International debt maybe??????
May 25, 1998

Bank of Canada official says dollar to be defended

CALGARY, May 25 ( Reuters ) - The Bank of Canada will defend the value of the Canadian dollar through market intervention and higher interest rates, but has set no target trading range against the U.S. dollar, a senior bank official said on Monday.

"When we released the monetary policy report recently, people got the wrong impression that the Bank of Canada is not going to raise interest rates for the next six months. We didn't say that," the bank economist said.

Canada, as a whole, is forecast by the central bank to close its production gap in mid-1999, which means excess capacity will disappear and pressure on labor costs could push up the inflation rate.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Mon May 25 1998 19:37 - ID#384350)
I just stated my opinion. I didn't tell you what to do, and your resorting to name calling is uncalled for.

Gentlemen, til tomorrow.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:37 - ID#190411)
In merka we can buy the ingredients for aqua regia. Have you checked your local chemical suppliers?

(Mon May 25 1998 19:39 - ID#286230)
Just saw Newt in the middle east insulting the Israelis and the Palestinians. Please guys don't let this moron get into the White House.
Off to watch the hockey game.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:43 - ID#230376)

(Mon May 25 1998 19:44 - ID#287193)
You do your handle name honour! Thanks for sharing the URL.
What a good read for a change. We all have to get ready for the big BANG!


silver plate
(Mon May 25 1998 19:45 - ID#234253)
You have some pretty good nuts.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:46 - ID#230376)

(Mon May 25 1998 19:46 - ID#230376)

(Mon May 25 1998 19:47 - ID#284255)
Global hernias
Pakistan down 4.06%
S Korea down 6.5%
Hungary down 8.7%
Russia down 4.3%

(Mon May 25 1998 19:49 - ID#396249)
Hey guys thanks for the great to see Clapton...yeah I know still a hippie at heart


(Mon May 25 1998 19:53 - ID#190411)
Aqua regia is one part concentrated nitric acid to 2-4 parts conc. hydrochloric acid.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:53 - ID#230376)
Some tears were shed.......

For the blood that was shed in years past, at my father's grave and others. Today in rememberence of all who died for rightous causes I thank and honor you....

(Mon May 25 1998 19:55 - ID#341312)
No name calling was done, just the "where the hell do you get off" part. I agree, name calling is generally uncalled for and does not serve to clarify issues. Cars, like guns, gold, and political theories provoke strong emotional responses.
To whomever is selling silver into the gutter, please continue. I will continue to accumulate more at lower prices. Thanks!
P.S.- Could you do the same to gold? I don't have nearly enough yet. ;- )

(Mon May 25 1998 19:56 - ID#290118)
Selby - I merely compared stated descriptions with my here and now.
Where ever their descriptions would fit - let the shoe follow. ( ugh )
Anyway -
I too can go down the street and buy a phone SET.
But actually getting the line hooked up with a dial tone -
depending on where you live in the rural county - it may be more like eight months! ( Okay - that experience was happened a couple years ago to some of my friends - I understand the local telco now has it down to a few months ) .

I'm still wading through two days of posts. Am making progress.

(Mon May 25 1998 19:57 - ID#432157)
Gold Time Reading--Thought youall might like it.

Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
May 25,1998 Issue.05.05 John Brimelow William J. Murphy III Frank Veneroso

The Gold Market
More Positive Tea Leaves

The Comex Position of Traders Report is Constructive
The large speculators on Comex had swung to a net short position of over 30,000 lots by last Tuesday's close. The net long position of the small specs fell to 5,000 lots. The market has absorbed more spec selling than we expected on the price decline to just below $299 gold. This is very constructive. This implies there has been a big buyer below $300. As we have discussed, we attribute this support to "informed" producers covering their hedges.

Bernard Connolly Suggests Undisclosed EMU Related Gold Sales
Bernard Connolly was the head of the European Unit "EMS: National and Community Monetary Policies". He now works for AIG. His past role at the European Commission makes him well placed regarding EMU related monetary events. Ian Lamont of Yorkton Securities interviewed him and wrote about his views in an April 20 piece. Connally suggests in this interview that there have been undisclosed European gold sales.

"As Mr. Connolly says: 'When France and Germany have a common interest, it will likely prevail with the ESCB. Thus, it is hard to see the smaller EMU-area central banks, once the ESCB is established, daring to carry on with opportunistic gold sales in the face of German disapproval, even if the rules allow it.' Mr. Connolly believes it is recognition that this window of opportunity is about to close that has forced some small central banks, which are keen to reduce the weighting of non-income producing gold in their national reserves, to sell gold into a falling market."

Connolly finds it hard to see smaller EMU central banks "carrying on" with opportunistic gold sales. Connolly uses the plural when he refers to these "central banks", "keen to reduce the weighting of non income producing gold in their national reserves, to sell gold into a falling market". Presumably this interview occurred after the Belgians announced their gold sale in late March. If Connolly believed this was the only EMU related gold sale, he would not have used the plural---he would have referred to Belgium only.

The implications of Connolly's statement are bullish. We reiterate our thesis of the last several months. Despite no announcement to date, the odds are that the gold price has been held down this year by one or more undisclosed EMU related gold sales. This selling will end soon. When it ends the gold price will rise.

Another Sentiment Indicator?Despite Positive Performance,Gold Funds Suffer Outflows

Last week we noted that a condition of complete market neglect and despair in the gold market could be construed as a positive technical sign. Indications of such neglect and disaffection mount. According to Dick Pomboy, the Lipper Index of gold funds is up 7% this year. The XAU has risen 10%. Yet, there has been a net outflow from the gold mutual funds this year. This outflow has been most pronounced since the end of March despite a gold price that is well off its lows. This is occurring amidst sustained extremely high flows of funds into an ever more insanely valued stock market.

The signs of a coming end to sustained undisclosed EMU related gold sales mount. The behavior of gold speculators and investors are typical of an extremely sold out market. This is a very positive combination.

Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
May 25, 1998 Issue 05.06
John Brimelow William J. Murphy III Frank Veneroso
The US Economy
High Tech

An Elasticity of Demand Less Than Unity
Negative Revenue Growth Ahead?

The following piece on the US economy was sent to our macroeconomic clients. Because of its relevance to the goldmarket we are also sending it to those of you primarily interested in gold.

Deterioration in the industry's high tech fundamentals have exceeded our expectations. Yet, beliefs by investors that we are in a high tech driven new era has led to rises in high tech stocks. Market participants believe: high tech is the way of the future; therefore, all disappointments are simply transitory episodes before the inevitable recovery.

Two weeks ago in a report titled, High Tech:The Boom/Bust Cycle Of A Generation? ( This four-page report is available on our website, ) . In this report we set forth the following hypothesis. The PC industry has hit a wall of market saturation. At the point of market saturation the long run elasticity of PC demand would fall below unity. The recovery in demand in the first two months of this year was only a transitory short run demand response to the recent severe decline in average selling prices. Once this transitory response abated, the industry would experience renewed slow unit sales growth despite declining average selling prices. The industry's revenues would go negative despite an overall economic boom.

Over the last two weeks, there have been a surprising number of disappointing reports by vendor's of PC's and related products. Fred Hickey tells us that PC Data---the best survey of consumer computer demand---reports a very sharp decline in consumer PC sales in April relative to March. This results in a resumption of slow year-over-year growth in unit sales and a significant decline in year-over-year revenues. This has happened despite lower average selling prices and the introduction of new high speed Pentium II models. In the corporate market, there are signs of no unit sales responses to cuts in average selling prices. These short term trends support our hypothesis.

If this trend persists, an industry expecting no end of rapid growth will experience declining revenues. This could be disastrous for profits. Believing investors keep buying despite obvious fundamental deterioration, confident of an imminent rebound to rapid sales growth. If our hypothesis is correct, euphoric investor expectations supporting insane valuations will eventually be deflated.

The huge rise in high tech stock prices to insane valuations despite severe deterioration in the economic fundamentals are part of a greater overall pattern of price extremes relative to fundamentals that pervades so many markets today. Today, apropos this pervasive pattern, we believe that the gold market could be at a very opposite juncture. This deeply depressed market is experiencing a multifaceted improvement in its fundamentals. Yet, investors who believe high tech can never fail also believe that gold is a hopeless relic of a bygone era and continue to flee the market.
Copyright All rights reserved 1997 Veneroso Associates

(Mon May 25 1998 20:07 - ID#230376)
To all fellow Right Wing Conspiritors.....

mozel 11:29...Robby 11:30...Avalon 11:30 EXACTLY! J.Disney 13:30 Right on ! ( Ur 2 mato soop was superb ! ) panda 13:33 & 13:39 Nailed it ! RJ..go suck a golden egg..... THEN tell me when platinum will bottom. RE: aurator....pushed some my personal buttons with his rantings-so- just stay out of it . Your part deux @ 14:59...INDEEDY!!..Hardcase 14:58 exactly! Squirrel 15:19 Mega dittos to YOU! ...sam 15:44 as T1 would say "a gulp to ya !"

(Mon May 25 1998 20:10 - ID#286230)
Clinton's at the game
Squirrel Maybe I should have asked what socialist country you live in now : ) . Anyway great discussions of non gold topics usualy happen on the weekend. I see Bill is at the Washington Buffalo game.

(Mon May 25 1998 20:10 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro: I didn't know folks in Switzerland had guns in
their homes. See, you learn something new every day at Kitco. I wonder, do they keep the guns just in case they have to defend themselves from Jews breaking in to get back the gold that was stolen from them by the Nazis during WWII?

Sorry to hear you were in a car wreck. I know, that's just no fun at all. I agree that cars suck but it seems we prefer them. Personally, I love trains. Taking Amtrak between Philly and DC, it's like being in a plane except it's nice and slow, there's no turbulance, you can move around whenever you want, and you can get your own drinks.

By the way, I'm thinking of getting some binary nerve gas to keep in the house just in case 1,000 angry poor folks attack my house and I have to wipe them all out. What do you think? I hear I'll only need about a 1/4 oz.

(Mon May 25 1998 20:10 - ID#230376)
@ auracious......

You are entitled to your opinions as I ......Pax.......

(Mon May 25 1998 20:20 - ID#45173)
mozel: a moment of silence
for your liver.

(Mon May 25 1998 20:24 - ID#43460)
I LIKE Kitco!
After a hard day of gardening ( and during water breaks ) it is a lot of fun to sit and scroll through the opinions. Too bad ole' EJ quit today . I was going to tell him that his wonderful eloquence swayed me and I now believe that regular people should not own guns. Only important people should be allowed this privilage. IMHO

The list of important people should be very short: politicians ( only when they are holding office, not when they are running ) , lawyers, doctors ( not nurses, they're not important enough ) , college professors ( only if they have tenure and not regular schoolteachers, they might influence the children ) , rock stars, movie stars ( except for those who star in violent movies ) , investment bankers and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. IMHO

Those who are really important may hire guards and equip them with guns, but the guards shouldn't be allowed to actually own them. Chiefs of police are important enough to own them, but not line officers. IMHO

The same thing should apply to cars and gold. Except with gold the list is even shorter. Only Kitco posters should be allowed to own gold, although lurkers may be licensed to lease a one ounce maple leaf if they promise to keep it under lock and key in an approved storage facility. Even Kitcoites, except those who are really important ( no, if you have to ask, you're not important enough ) may only buy one ounce of gold per month and must pay for it in advance, then wait for a five day cooling off period. IMHO

Do you think if we could manage a vote on this, the Central Bankers will turn over their gold? IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 20:30 - ID#43460)
EJ's back!
Hi, EJ! Well, you'll have some difficulty getting the binary nerve gas, although that Japanese cult did pretty good making plain ole' Sarin. IMHO

(Mon May 25 1998 20:33 - ID#29048)
Socialist Europe and gun control
Firepower of Northern Ireland's underground armies

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 20:35 - ID#77133)
Interesting Veneroso articles - thanks

(Mon May 25 1998 20:45 - ID#29048)
Great health care and wide safety net...and no guns
German Military Hate Incidents Double

(Mon May 25 1998 20:46 - ID#238422)
O.K., your point of view is your point of view.
I'm afraid, but wish it never takes place, that
when you see enough evidence that your household
should have a gun, it's gonna be too late for you.

By the way, the first paragraph of your 20:10 is
not's kind of stupid stuff, sorry...

(Mon May 25 1998 20:49 - ID#290118)
Kitco Bar & Grill is now open.
I'll tend bar if anyone wants to drop by.
Sam is hittin' the sack.

(Mon May 25 1998 20:58 - ID#29048)
It's not just the USA or N. Ireland
Chronology of Events Highlighting Policies and Solutions
Concerning the Proliferation of Small Arms and Light Weapons

(Mon May 25 1998 21:02 - ID#288369)
We await the common foe, and with his coming we shall find our hearts instantly and forever bound by this effort to overcome him. And today's words will not be remembered, and the trivial concepts that gave rise to their utterance will be dimly set in the context of these stark issues of survival. 'Tis the dawn of freedom.
And from the first fearful day, and likewise to the last glory, the american will fight beside you. And we shall rip the red from our new flag that we raise that day. 'Tis the dawn of freedom.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:05 - ID#153102)
In the moment of silence after the lights go out in Y2K, remember when.
In the moment of silence before you board the FEMA bus, remember when.
In the moment of silence after they seize you car for failure to pass the new emissions test, remember when.
In the moment of silence after you answer the door and are told your house will be inspected for violations, remember when.
In the moment of silence after you read the IRS notice telling you that have found the unreported income you were saving for a vacation, remember when.
In the moment of silence after you hold your tongue from saying the newly forbidden thing, remember when.
In the moment of silence after you realize they are armed and dangerous and without any immature ideals and you are undefended and defenceless, remember when.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:07 - ID#290118)
USG * "America" * "Grass Roots Americans"
Do my "not equals" signs come out right on your various computers?
AURATOR and Nick@C
Please do not confuse the nuts in our cities with rural America.
Even rural America is infected with diseases from our cities.
And the {not our} state & federal gov'ts are of by and for cities.
For many that share my community - your descriptions do not fit us.
You can not paint all of "merkans" with the same brush.
Just as we must not paint all who live in OZ or NZ with the same brush.
Yes, many of us "grass roots Americans" will undoubtedly and privately look forward to Y2K, Klinton's impeachment, and Wall Streets meltdown. Hopefully they will be like a summer thunderstorm washing our air clean.
I hope that not enough is left of the rotten-ness in America that it will not impede our rebuilding - for we have no where else to go.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:07 - ID#45173)
gagnrad: thx for the welcome back; oris...
...the stuff at the beginning of 20:10 is a bit of sarcasm I thought I'd get to put out there because my mother was Jewish and most of her family was wiped out by the Nazis in Poland. Sorry if it made you uncomfortable.

gagrad, I'm confused about keeping guns locked in a safe so your kids can't get at them yet keeping them for defense. Help me out here. If I do this, will the bad guys call me up and say, "Hey, EJ. We're on on way over. Be there in 5 minutes to rob and maybe kill you. Better hurry up and get that Mac 10 out of the safe!"

(Mon May 25 1998 21:10 - ID#335190)
Consider.@ USofA Military organized student riots in Indonesia EH!
May 24, 1998

Green berets in Colombia fighting guerrillas, newspaper reports

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- U.S. green berets have been conducting training exercises with Colombian soldiers fighting drug-traffickers and guerrillas under a program that avoids restrictions on general military aid, the Washington Post newspaper reported.

The story in today's edition said the training was authorized under a 1991 law -- known as JCET for Joint Combined Exchange Training -- that permits U.S. Special Forces to train on foreign soil if the training is designed primarily to benefit the U.S. troops.

The same program was invoked for U.S. troops to conduct 41 training exercises with Indonesia over the last seven years, even though many members of Congress believed they had curtailed military ties with that country, the report said.

U.S. Defence Secretary William Cohen suspended the Indonesia program two weeks ago because of turmoil.

"It was totally legal and reported to Congress."

(Mon May 25 1998 21:11 - ID#45173)
mozel: what's wrong with a moment of silence that I suggested
in memory of US veterans on this day? I wasn't kidding.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:11 - ID#386279)
Have accidentally strayed onto this gun discussion site.
Off-topic post. Aussie gold shares are so dull I am having trouble staying awake--and its only just past 11 AM. Volumes are next to nil. The POG is now at a pivotal point and a ) everyone has taken a position, or b ) they are waiting to see which side of the fence the gold nugget tumbles. Probably a combination of both down here. These 3 day US weekends make us wait until Wed. to do any useful trading. Shoulda gone to the beach!!

(Mon May 25 1998 21:16 - ID#340459)
@Nick.., Unfortunately, It seems that only direction for anything including Gold seem to come from
New York., Stocks, Futures, Commodities et al..

(Mon May 25 1998 21:20 - ID#412286)
I was at a immigrant friend's house where we broke bread and watched NBA Basketball. The conversation turned to Democratic Socialism in Europe and the US system. Their view is that if you want to hit it big the US is best. But if you dont or do not the Democratic Socialism of Europe is the best. Unfortunately they have done ok here but because of the education problem ( its cost ) and job insecurity they are leaving the US for their home in Europe. The hostess stated that in Europe there is a healthy ethos against the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. She said this is not true in America and ensures its demise. Her husband who is a software engineer just got screwed by his company as they are sending him for a course but suspend his salary while he is taking the course though they give him a per diem. She said Profit is GOD here and they are leaving before the chickens against this greed come home to roost. She said all their savings will be in Euros or DM s before that with 20% in gold. She thinks the US system is doomed jusdt a matter of when.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:21 - ID#202123)
This is a great and informative site.

I'm a goldbug who gets here not nearly as much as I wish I could. I was here last night and want to say that it was inspiring, passionate, revealing,--- and refreshing.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:22 - ID#255190)
I have stated here enough times that I am a christian by the grace of God. Jesus is all to me. I do not push this since it is not the emphasis of this site. When I do mention something I invite those who wish to discuss via email. I did that recently with regard to the scriptures I posted.

Hope this is saticfactory and that His peace is with you today and forever.

Yours in Him,
Allen ( USA )

(Mon May 25 1998 21:25 - ID#284255)
S. Korea tumbling
Down 4.1% to 318 pts
9% lower than its previous low.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:27 - ID#43460)
EJ, Ahhh! a serious (?) question
I have a pistol safe which has a rapid-open lock. But due to the dangerous nature of my work ( two nonlethal altercations so far this year with the assailant being subdued without me even revealing the presence of the weapon ) I usually just carry, a privilage which costs less than a 1/10 ounce maple leaf in my state. IMHO

But, just as children must be taught to appreciate the true value of PMs so must they be taught to fear and respect weapons. I started when mine were babes in arms by introducing them to the frightfully terrible noise and fire, then proceeded to teach age appropriate safety issues. When they were old enough they learned marksmanship in the Boy Scouts. One child is now serving in the US military; I worry much more about the maturity and stability of the president who has the codes to allow arming the nuclear weapons on board his ship than any possible mishandling of small arms by any number nor combination of my aquaintances. IMHO

But don't you agree, that owning guns, cars and gold should be a privilage only for the few important people in the world?

(Mon May 25 1998 21:32 - ID#341312)
Actually the Swiss are required to keep full-auto assault rifles in their homes and to spend some time each year in military exercises. In addition, if they're invaded and an individual is cut off from the central military authorities they are legally expected to fight the enemy as they see fit. This plus a mountainous terrain and long standing neutrality has kept them at peace for something like 800 years. Now, I don't like ( actually abhor is the right word ) mandatory military service and mandatory gun ownership but I must admit it's an integral part of what has worked for them. As far as the Nazi gold goes, it's been known for a long time that the Swiss ask few questions about depositors and jealously guard their privacy. So why all the hoopla now? Perhaps someone doesn't like the idea of financial privacy ( those drug dealers like privacy, you know ) and non $US denominated assets and is trying to publicly discredit them. All they have to do is link the concepts in public opinion: privacy+gold=mass murder of Jews. So eventually the public thinks that guy's got gold? That drug dealing Nazi bastard! Kill him! Of course, the explanation could be as simple as none of the murdered Jews surviving families knew that the Germans used Swiss bank accounts. That seems a little hard to believe given my experience that most Jews are considerably more on the ball when it comes to money than most of their Gentile counterparts. Come to think of it, that observation might explain why they've been vilified and persecuted more than any other group I can think of. Whenever a would-be tyrant wants to gain power, he needs someone to blame. Somebody different. Somebody who has something worth stealing, oops, I mean "confiscating for the good of the community". In many countries, guess who didn't quite "fit in" and often prospered through their own efforts even when others did not?

(Mon May 25 1998 21:39 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-tomatoes
If the Klintonazis succeed in disarming and exterminating conservatives, would the gentle Kitcoite folk here who survive the massacre kindly denounce for me any gun-control kookaboo who subsequently claims to be related to me as an exceedingly stupid AND ignorant GENETIC DEFECT? Thanks.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:47 - ID#434158)
Mozel, et al @FEMA
There's been a lot of speculation lately about Federal Emergency Management Agency and the possibility of a Klinton/FEMA takeover related to Y2K crises: what makes you think they're that smart? See for a summary of Congressman Horn's assessment ( Technology Committee ) of government preparedness for Y2K. FEMA's grade is a D Minus ( scale is A to F ) . Yeah, Clinton will use the emergency if he can: but FEMA won't be much help. They don't have the gasoline, let alone the buses, to respond. They are poor enough with local disasters: no way they can respond on a national scale. Dept of Defense is not much better. Financial Management Service is the section of Treasury that issues checks to pay virtually all federal bills, including entitlements ( social security, etc. ) and payroll: there is no reason to believe they'll be anywhere near compliant. Those who see conspiracy here make the same errors as those who see no problem at all: they vastly overestimate the capabilites of our federal officials.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:47 - ID#153102)
It's a painful realization.
Well, Cape Town is highly recommended.
Costa Rica welcomes Americans.
Granada is out of the way.
Argentina is huge in area, rich in resources, and has many european immigrant groups. An American colony could exist there alongside the others.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:49 - ID#373403)
Global crash number 2
The following countries are either setting new 52 week lows right now or are very close to the bottom.

South Korea
Czech Republic

(Mon May 25 1998 21:50 - ID#386279)
G'day Squirrel
1 ) Comes out as a * on my BillGatesmobile.

2 ) Enjoy most of your posts, mate. Have put a couple into my Kitco classics file.

3 ) I grew up in the US. My father was a peripatetic pilot. My childhood memories are of never locking a door, never getting robbed, and the only drugs we saw were aspirin tablets. You have heard all this 'remember the good old days' stuff before. I was in L.A. during the Watts riots. In fact I had naievly driven through Watts a few days before on the way to LAX. Watts, JFK being murdered by 'persons and/or groups unknown', and the Vietnam war changed my thinking about the US. The problems had been there all the time. I was just tardy in recognizing them. They have increased exponentially in the last 30 years.

Antipodeans have a love/hate relationship with the US. The biggest kid on the block is always going to be resented. You should be thankful that Aurator lets off a broadside every now and then. The rest of the world is thinking much darker thoughts about you but still smile and kowtow in your presence. Antipodeans tend to shoot from the lip. Must be that anti-authoritarian convict past. Probably why we like Kitco so much. Criticism from these parts should be taken as your best friend telling you that you have bad breath before the big date.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:50 - ID#17796)
Brother oris, not wanting to change subjects on this gun site but, Ive thought gold was going to $295 for the last week or more. Seems it does not want to go there to quickly. Could I be wrong, again? Spot gold should rebound if only it drops $3-4 in a day. It just is reluctant to heed the call and bounce off of $295.

I must be missing something. Maybe its guns? Do gold and guns flow in the same direction? If so, which direction is that? Perhaps I need a compass.

Pickles have arrived...Gold better move soon. Up, that is.


(Mon May 25 1998 21:51 - ID#341312)
EJ, Nick, ROR
EJ-My sympathies to your mother's family. They experienced horrors I've only read about. For obvious reasons I hope it stays that way.
Nick-good point. The problem with discussing gold is that it doesn't DO anything any more. It just sits there. And sits there. And sits there.
ROR-That is the most disturbing anecdote I've read in a long time. Sometimes ousiders see things we on the inside miss, I guess. If that is a common opinion of foreigners about the $US we are in for a world of hurt.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:54 - ID#373403)
fiveliter (Why Nazi gold now)
I think it has something to do with documents being released after a fifty year seal, post WWII.

Many new documents seem to have come to light in the past few years that have been archived and "known" about since they were captured fifty five years ago.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:54 - ID#177145)
@John Disney

The URL: has, what I hope is,

some very bias and bigoted articles portraying South Africa as anything but a safe place to invest. I would appreciate your thoughts on the contents of the site.

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 21:55 - ID#211105)
In reference to your 10:08am post today - it is very interesting to know that the XAU has tended to outperform the POG over the past 14 years. I tend to regard this as confirming that the XAU is influenced by the behaviour of equities in general.

For example, the average trailing PE ratio of the S&P is about 25 times earnings. In the nadir of the 1982 bear market, the same PE ratio was about 7 or 8 times earnings. Therefore in the past 16 years, general equities ( and apparently gold equities ) have been given ever increasing premiums over basic value.

The negative implication is that if the S&P stocks begin to tank, then the gold equities could also underperform the POG and slowly revert back to the historical XAU ratio ( .23? ) . I would hate to be caught in a positive correlation to a sinking general market. Perhaps I'm overstating the possible effects.

(Mon May 25 1998 21:58 - ID#153102)
What you overlook is the power FEMA will have when Clinton signs the authorization. It can commandeer any government asset that is working.
So what if DOD is snarled. That just further guarantees there will be no possibility of co-ordinated opposition by the uniformed military.

EBT is working now. It's new. And I wager it is going to have no Y2K problem.

If you think FEMA was created to help civilians after natural disasters, you are swallowing the Trojan Horse.

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 21:59 - ID#211105)
Spot gold holding its own in Australia
Australian stocks open firmer in thin trade
Reuters, Monday, May 25, 1998 at 20:52
Gold - New York Friday 299.85 Asia 299.75

(Mon May 25 1998 21:59 - ID#411149)
fiveliter- My Swiss friend used to tell the joke about what would happen
if invaded by a milion man Rusian army and the reply was well,
we would have to shoot twice. [you see we got 1/2 million troops
livin @ home fully armed].

For those concerned about a fallin Rand. This is the best thing
that could happen for the SA mines, the miners love a fallin Rand.
They make more money!! Pay expenses in local currency and sell your
product abroad. This is true for any SA company doin international
business. When I was there the miners were jokin/hopin for 10 Rands to the dollar.

Tally Ho

(Mon May 25 1998 22:01 - ID#45173)
fiveliter, gagrad, Ron , sharefin on S. Koreathis has something to
fiveliter, the Swiss are using socialist tactics to avoid an Army of the Poor as we have in the US. I wonder, why does Robnoel hold up a socialist country as THE example of a European nation that allows ( er, requires ) it citizens to own guns? Does that count? Is there a more appropriate example?

gagrad, ok so you got a fancy safe. Do you think most folks do? They either have them in a slow-to-open safe like my friend Cliff who's terrified his kids will find them or they keep them tragically "handy" where they and their kids can get at them.

Ron, don't worry. Clinton won't do anything to upset Wall Street, including taking anyone's guns away. He will, however take a postition on hating guns. But he won't do anything, really.

sharefin, maybe this has something to do with it...

Analysts: S Korea due for long recession

By Kim Myong-hwan

SEOUL, South Korea ( Reuters ) - South Korea is sinking into what could be a long recession with domestic consumption and investment evaporating, analysts said over the weekend.

( paste the two parts of URL together )


I wonder why the Nikkei is up almost a percent to 15933.62?

(Mon May 25 1998 22:01 - ID#29048)
Forbes Magazine has upbeat Silver analysis...
and chart with gold/silver ratio over long time frame.

This is a mainstream financial publication with a large circulation.

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 22:04 - ID#211105)
South Korea diving again
S.Korea stock index dives more than four percent
Reuters, Monday, May 25, 1998 at 21:15

SEOUL, May 26 ( Reuters ) - Investors went on a selling spree in the South Korean stock market early on Tuesday, trading on uncertainties weighing on the nation, brokers said. The Korea Stock Exchange composite price index fell 4.06 percent, or 13.47 points, to 318.43 at 0046 GMT. "As the long-standing 350 level was breached, investors began dumping their holdings indiscriminately," said fund manager Park Key-pyong at Hanyang Securities.

My Comment - this is a new 14 year low.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:05 - ID#413109)
late minute thoughts
Pakistan and Korea markets getting hit again today, but
the thing that catches this watcher's eye is the stronger
US$. This is the one to watch for a direction of where gold is
liable to go today, IMHO.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:07 - ID#290118)
made it as far as GUNS & GOLD
To all those who wish guns to be outlawed and who want gun owners to surrender their weapons:
Since this is supposed to be a gold forum...
IF/WHEN GOLD OWNERSHIP IS OUTLAWED will you peacefully take your bars and coins and jewelry down to the collection center.
No - you do not get fair value script in return.
Just like the confiscation you espouse for guns - your gold is confiscated. Okay, maybe they'll give you 10 cents on the dollar.
Maybe you will be priviledged to watch while they melt down that pre 1900 collector's double eagle. $20 face value - they give you $2 and thank you for your patriotic contribution to the cause. Gold is gold.
Same thing as the gun owner seeing his grandaddy's shotgun or the pre 1900 revolver put to the torch. A gun is a gun.

Rising Sun
(Mon May 25 1998 22:10 - ID#411331)

Your friends from Europe are better off going back home. America is not for everybody. I'm not saying that's good nor bad. I am an U.S. citizen who is witnessing the cultural destruction of my Country. Years ago people came here to become Americans and integrate themselves into the "middle class ethic". Not any more. Instead you have immigrants who try to change the system to make it easier for them to survive. That sounds like an innocent concept. But to the contrary, nothing is guaranteed here. It's this uncertainty that has driven individuals to strive. That is what makes America great. Unfortunately, this notion is fading.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:12 - ID#72316)
@gangrad,, teaching kids about guns

I noticed with this school shooting in Oregon, that the shooter was wrestled to the ground by a wounded student. Aparently the perpetrator said at the time , "just shoot me". The wounded student, although having a strong motive, chose not to take up the assailants offer. This would prove that guns do not kill, however easy access to guns certainly helps nuts to kill, even ones who are rendered temporarily nuts by alcohol.

As a teacher said at the time, "maybe it's time for some kind of gun control, I could flunk a student and he could waste me"..

guns are for killing, aren't they?

(Mon May 25 1998 22:14 - ID#255217)
I just came on line and what do I see? Squirrel posts. But that's OK, because I find myself agreeing with about 99% of everything you say. I suspect that is not the situation with some others on this forum.

As a matter of fact I would like to say that I admire your perseverence in continuing to try to "educate" some unbelievers. It's an uphill battle my friend and I believe your efforts are wasted. But I don't wish to deter you,
and, perhaps, you might just succeed in "enlightening" some of our misguided bretheren here on Kitco.

But you will never convert them, as I am certain they are equally convinced in their own minds that YOU are the misguided one. It is, after all, a forum of opinions. There are no winners and loosers. BTW, I particularly agree with your post of 21:07.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:17 - ID#153102)
@Rising Sun
The cultural destruction of my country. The destruction of those immature ideals that were at the core of our culture. They are not dead in the hearts of all of the people, but they are dead in the mouths of the politicians and in the regulations of the agencies they endlessly spawn.

I think whether or not a person credits the possibility of FEMA Y2k happening depends entirely on whether or not they understand the OKC bombing was a federal operation.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:18 - ID#45173)
John B Korean in free-fall?
Here's the URL again.

How will the DOW react? It's so nutty, it'll probably go up.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:23 - ID#347235)
@ Dave W.
I am in complete agreement with Robnoel, that is the site for you. You started the silliness with your diatribe about guns. That is also off subject at Kitco so you should either return to the subject at hand or go back where you came from if you dont like the subject matter here. I wont tell you to leave as a personal matter becuase I spent 26 years using weapons of all types rather well so people like you can say stupid things without punishment. You too mozel. SHALOM

(Mon May 25 1998 22:24 - ID#72316)
@EJ, Dow up?
S&P up 2.30

(Mon May 25 1998 22:24 - ID#340459)
I hope this week is the turnaround that we have been anticipating about. Silver may start the Bull
Market in P.M.'s. There is never any action in Far East and Australia. Maybe London may usher in a nice surprise in the morning for many of us in North America.

Turns my stomach to watch all the psycho babble about brat's like kinkel, they should hang the little bastard in town square who killed the only people who ever loved him ( His Parents ) . this is what happens when you legimitize Satanists like Marilyn Manson and his evil words in Children's mainstream music. All Music, TV and Hollywood is now infiltrated by these evil icons..

(Mon May 25 1998 22:24 - ID#341189)
John B
Re your comments on tying the XAU outperformance of POG to the equities to equities in general. I've thought about this, but have not done the research necessary to pin it down. My speculation ( only speculation ) is that it is due more to mining methods and to ( particulary ) the addition of Barrick to the XAU and its dominance there. This is a topic worthy of investigation, however my thinking runs contrary to yours. If anything, the momentum-guided investing techniques that have driven the equities in general have worked against the PM shares. However, I worry about the PM shares getting dragged down in a real liquidity crunch - everything will go in a crisis. It is an increasing probability, I think, that the PM's will move up with this equity bubble before both the PM shares and the rest go as in 1997. Gold could keep on going as it did then until the fear subsided. But this is only the wildest kind of speculation.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:27 - ID#341189)
John B - correction of date reference
1987, not 1997

(Mon May 25 1998 22:29 - ID#286230)
I don't have a gun at the moment and I do have gold and if gold ever looks like it will take off I will have a lot more--in the form of marginal mining shares. Why do you think you will have to turn in your gold?

(Mon May 25 1998 22:29 - ID#347235)
Right on guy!!

(Mon May 25 1998 22:33 - ID#22956)
*this is one wacky bunch*
indeedy. the couch


go silver.......go plat......go guns ( ? ) .....easy cowboys..........

(Mon May 25 1998 22:35 - ID#72316)
evil icons
@ Midas, I think one could blame computer games more than evil icons. Having more lives then 10 cats makes death sureal IMHO.

Easy access to guns sure helps. I don't see how anyone could deny this blatantly obvious fact.

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 22:36 - ID#211105)
I prefer your analysis because it suggests that the XAU is not overpriced relative to the POG.

I remain concerned however when I look at the PE ratios of some of the stocks I own. For example, Barrick trades at about 30X trailing earnings ( roughly price of 21 divided by .70 earnings ) I don't know how to interpret this other than to say it reflects the general PE ratio being given to the market as a whole. That is unless gold equities have traditionally been "expensive" relative to earnings - on that I have no knowledge.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:36 - ID#25253)
Gold Prophecy

I am in Christ and I am invested in gold. The word tells us that Gold well be thrown in to the streets , having no value. My guess is the world will fall into depression, Gold well rule, then one well rule,then Gold well be thrown into the streets.I hope my fellow Goldbugs have found the only thing we can really trust in. CHRIST

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 22:42 - ID#211105)
In re-reading your previous note, I fear your statement is correct "It is an increasing probability, I think, that the PM's will move up with this equity bubble before both the PM shares and the rest go as in 1987"

This is exactly what I'd like to avoid. I've missed the better part of the bull market and now don't need to also get caught with my gold shares in a general downdraft.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:45 - ID#286230)
Retired Soldier
Are you posting on K2 or is it our Hepcat friend imitating you over there?

(Mon May 25 1998 22:45 - ID#45173)
arby: what will make this bubbly DOW go down?
I do not pretend to understand how it can keep going up with all the obvious signs that it is overvalued. But I have to guess that it's because few in the business and in the market can afford the luxury of believing it will do otherwise. I just read an analysis in Yahoo that soberly explained that the DOW will keep going up because Clinton is a lame duck president and Ike was too and the market went up in '58, goes up when you have a weak president, yup, so it'll keep going up now. That reasoning sounds about as implausible as any nutty theory I've ever seen proffered here to explain why gold will go up tomorrow, or next week, or next year.

If the market opens tomorrow with S. Korean down 10%, the US investors may take this as a sign that more Asia money is headed this way and the DOW will rise some more! Only a very loud, undeniable, in-your-face "HELLO" is going to get this stock market to react. We might actually have to wait until October, when everyone's so jittery Greenspan can fart at a Washington dinner party and sent the DOW diving.

Bully Beef
(Mon May 25 1998 22:47 - ID#260119)
I keep waiting for Rocky Balboa to break in on the screen with his flag waving
and an M-16 cradled in his arms and saying something vacuous like..."I'm a McCarthyite and I'm OK ,I work all nite and I play all day , I put the finger on Pinko's and through them in a prison. I dressup just like Hoover and dance with lumberjacks..." Go gold Please!

(Mon May 25 1998 22:47 - ID#210114)
One final word........
Unfortunately I was disconnected yesterday at the height of the ROR vs Kitco Debate.

For the record; I describe myself as a social democrat, not a socialist. The word socialist has been perverted by Stalin et al.

Secondly, I do not want to overtrow the capitalist system, I just believe its fruits should be distributed justly. Why shouldn't working people get a good slice of the wealth they help to generate?

Finally, as usual the Kitco forum degenirated into name calling. In my experience, whenever someone can't argue against you intellectually they call you names.

So gagnrag, I am a mature grown up person. If being 'grown up' means supporting the idea of being a greedy selfish dog eat dog person well maybe its not great to be grown up.

Those on the Right who tout Adam Smith as their hero forget that he argued that capitalism needed a moral and ethical framework. He would have been appalled by the market system which has been dominant since Reagan and Thatcher.

Suggest people read 'The Death of Economics' by Paul Ormarand.

Live Long and Prosper ( with social democracy and justice ) .

(Mon May 25 1998 22:47 - ID#210114)
One final word........
Unfortunately I was disconnected yesterday at the height of the ROR vs Kitco Debate.

For the record; I describe myself as a social democrat, not a socialist. The word socialist has been perverted by Stalin et al.

Secondly, I do not want to overtrow the capitalist system, I just believe its fruits should be distributed justly. Why shouldn't working people get a good slice of the wealth they help to generate?

Finally, as usual the Kitco forum degenirated into name calling. In my experience, whenever someone can't argue against you intellectually they call you names.

So gagnrag, I am a mature grown up person. If being 'grown up' means supporting the idea of being a greedy selfish dog eat dog person well maybe its not great to be grown up.

Those on the Right who tout Adam Smith as their hero forget that he argued that capitalism needed a moral and ethical framework. He would have been appalled by the market system which has been dominant since Reagan and Thatcher.

Suggest people read 'The Death of Economics' by Paul Ormarand.

Live Long and Prosper ( with social democracy and justice ) .

John B__A
(Mon May 25 1998 22:49 - ID#211105)
Bad to worse in South Korea
Seoul stocks plunge more than five percent
Reuters, Monday, May 25, 1998 at 22:36
SEOUL, May 26 ( Reuters ) - The South Korean stock market extended early losses on broad-based panic selling with the index losing more than five percent near the morning close, brokers said. The Korea Stock Exchange composite stock price index had shed 5.01 percent, or 16.62 points, to 315.28 at 0208 GMT. Brokers said an expected labour strike by the Hyundai Motor union threw cold water from the opening bell on a market which already had been devastated.

About 90 percent of South Korea's Hyundai Motor union members are believed to have voted in favour of authorising a strike, a union official said on Tuesday.

"The market is beginning to collapse," said broker Park Si-jin at Hanwha Securities. "The period when foreign investors re-enter the market will be the time for the stock market to turn around, but when that will happen will be anybody's guess."
Copyright 1998, Reuters News Service
 1998, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

(Mon May 25 1998 22:53 - ID#340459)
Perhaps a bunch of Satanist's have planned this nation wide adolescant murders and media is urged
to move opinion against guns or self defence. Man always had weapons to assist him in self defence since the earliest times of any recorded History of every civilization or race, This never led to killings as we see today, Where the blame is ? IMHO It is squarely vested in a Society who have forgotten the moral and religious values as part of family upbringing, where the kid moves from alien lap to alien lap, While the Mother is busy making a buck all day and tries to compensate her guilt by buying material gifts and keeping quiet to every unreasonable tantrum. They never know that their kids are fed poison by Music from Manson, 9 inch Nails. If the Parents ever read their lyrics they will realize that Satan has entered their family abode. Most Fathers have NO BALLS to stand upto their kids for any form of discipline.

The Psycho freaks of new age have twisted every Family tradition that has withstood the test of time since ages by confusing youth discipline with abuse and all kinds of crap, by epousing their twisted new liberal family vision where two sodomites and dog can constitute a family. Fire and Brimstone is on the Way if the World doesnt shape up morally as well as they vigorously pursue the physical fitness.

I know that I am Politically incorrect, But Tis the Truth..

Strad Master
(Mon May 25 1998 23:00 - ID#250297)
Can't stay away...
HI ALL: It's been a long time since I posted. Preparations for concerts and the concerts themselves have taken up much time and energy along with my wife's finally going back to her job as an ER Doc three overnights a week - which leaves me home with the kids as Daddy/Mommy for 18 hours at a stretch. The biggest reason for my absence is that in the interim my long-suffering metals ( silver ) account got trashed in this recent fall. Indeed, my account ( once in excess of 250,000 ozs of Silver ) has been wiped out. Liquidated entirely. Kaput! No powder ( wet or dry ) left to use on anything. So, I haven't had much heart to post, or even lurk. Nonetheless, I find I miss y'all and sure enough, what do I find upon my return? All the same great topics - guns, Clinton Capers, gold, ANOTHER, and the imminent demise of Western Civilization with a bit of Jesus theology thrown in. I love it!!! Time to dust off and at least enjoy the commentary, even if at this point, from an investment standpoint, it is all moot.
To those of you brave souls who served my country ( The US of A ) in times of conflict, I want to extend my personal thanks on this Memorial Day. Were it not for you and the multitudes of your compatriots who gave their ALL, forums like this would probably not exist. May God richly bless and reward you all!

(Mon May 25 1998 23:05 - ID#210114)
John Disney and South African Mines
All the information I got about the cost of gold production in South Africa I got from this forum and from Yahoo etc.

I read that the easily obtainable gold was gone and that average mine costs were about $US300.

If you have better information, I would be glad to hear it. ( If you want to share it with a social democrat )

Live Long and Prosper in South Africa

(Mon May 25 1998 23:06 - ID#386279)
"He's making a list, checking it twice...
...gonna find out who's naughty and nice..."

One thing I like about this site is that we can say things that would get us shot ( sticking to the guns theme ) in many countries. All you guys/gals that have called your esteemed Prez and other eminent leaders by names like bjC, mad Mad..., the coward erect etc.--there is one thing you can be certain of---YOUR NAMES HAVE BEEN TAKEN!! When the thought police take control, there will be a Kitco Who's Who in the front of the line for the firing squad!!

Maybe that's why I can't help liking youse guys.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:09 - ID#340459)
@EJ. My Friend Dow may not rise as easily as before, The World is now rife with economic failures
all over the map. Even if Dow does not go down drastically or if it stays hovering at this level for weeks, greed will demand past returns in equities and not finding the same type of upward mobility will lose patience and very well move into Gold and PM's, alteast I hope so.

The last part of your post was very funny.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:11 - ID#45173)
Do I belong at Kitco? Soul searching, sort of...
...either I am the only atheistic, no-gun-owning, democratic/libertarian/capitalist-cum-socialist, gold investor here or... I'm going through some kind of transition and I'll wake up tomorrow with my target pistol under my pillow listening to gospel music and watching Lyndon Larouche tapes and recalling every word. Well, then maybe my wife might shoots me with that target pistol, to get me to shut up. Better change the combo on the safe before I turn in. G'Nite!

(Mon May 25 1998 23:12 - ID#347235)
@ Selby
Must be hepcat, I post over there by my real name, Jere Smith and sometimes as redneck to have a little fun.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:13 - ID#344308)

weekly silver....

bad boy , bad boy....whatcha' gonna do?
whatcha' gonna do when they come for you?

(Mon May 25 1998 23:16 - ID#386279)
Welcome back mate. We have missed you.
From what I hear, you have a talent that is 'priceless' and are indeed a wealthy man.
All the best to you and yours.N.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:18 - ID#286230)
You really have to hand it to Hepcat--he has an entire 1950's radio program going on over there and it is all entertaining. And he is one of the best predictors of gold we have seen here in the last couple of years. Maybe the best. I hope he has it wrong on Flag Resources and we will find out in the next week or so.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:18 - ID#72316)
when will bubbly dow go down?
"The market is beginning to collapse," said broker Park Si-jin at Hanwha Securities. "The period when foreign
investors re-enter the market will be the time for the stock market to turn around, but when that will happen will
be anybody's guess."

from John B's post

This is great, we're waiting for them to take our market higher, and they're waiting for us to do the same for them..

(Mon May 25 1998 23:19 - ID#341312)
Guns, the Media, and Blame
Well, I see according to some threads here I should of already committed several rapes and murders by now. Let's summarize my crimes against society.
1 ) I own guns. Sometimes I even shoot them at target ranges. GUILTY!
2 ) I've listened to lots of heavy metal and acid rock in my day. ( Btw, I also think Marilyn Manson bites the big one. ) GUILTY!
3 ) I even played some of it in bands in college. REALLY REALLY GUILTY!
4 ) I like some violent movies. Particularly partial to early '80's post apocalyptic Australian biker trash and some Eastwood flicks. GUILTY!

Strangely enough, I've never committed any violent crimes. Nor do I have any intention of ever doing so. Why? I was raised by two loving, caring parents who taught me to respect others, treat them fairly and keep an open mind. They taught me to strive for knowledge and not to be so naive as to believe everything you see and hear. To stand for what you believe in even if it's unpopular. The list goes on and on. My parents took an active, daily role in my upbringing. There was no such thing to them as "quality time". Today, of course, parents just don't have the time to do that. How quaint. They work two jobs to pay for that $250,000 house and the two $30,000 Jeep Grand Cherokees. Then there's the golf games, networking, etc. So when parents bemoan the actions of their children and want to blame something else for their problems, I have one thing to say to them:
Go look in the mirror. THERE'S your problem.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:20 - ID#347235)
You are so right! If they took every one of those little Sh*theads out and hung him publicly as soon as they knew for sure who did it, AND we do as they caught him in the act.A lot less of this would be happening. Public executions have been one of the best crime deterents ever devised. If you look at one you sure dont want to wind up getting one of your own.So you wont do the sort of thing that would require it. I am probably less politically correct than you and damn proud of it if what goes on today passes for political correctness.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:20 - ID#288369)
@warm and wet, much like a......
a freshly severed horse's head in your awake to Janet Reno.

and puke.......and then visualize a group portrait of Clinton's cabinent and staff. Perverse and Deformed Variations of Richard III in Drag.

Having far less talent and respectability than the Oklahoma County Salvation Army staff.

And we submit to our stupidos, so we are no better for this. forgot to use condoms.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:24 - ID#340344)
Not that it changes things, but how can the Korean market
being down 4% equate with it being 9% below it's previous
low? Huh?

(Mon May 25 1998 23:24 - ID#43460)
Hello, Spock!
You might want to archive my yesterday's post to you and your answer. I really wan't trying to come across as condescending, but this medium makes it impossible to critique unless one is a much better writer than me. Unlike the shades of grey in the real world, the typed page is black and white. "So gagnrag, I am a mature grown up person. If being 'grown up' means supporting the idea of being a greedy selfish dog eat dog person well maybe its not great to be grown up." IMHO

As Bones tried to teach the original Spock on many occasions reality isn't at all rational; rationality is merely one way of describing it, experiance of loving, laughter and suffering is another. You might want to archive this anonymous quote: 'In theory there is little difference between theory and practice but in practice there is.' IMHO ( $-^] )

(Mon May 25 1998 23:25 - ID#340459)
Good Night Good Folks..

(Mon May 25 1998 23:27 - ID#286230)
Oh My
Friends: Parents knew of murder suspect's

fascination with bombs

'That's enough,' wrestler said before tackling shooter

SPRINGFIELD, Ore. ( AP ) -- The guns that a boy allegedly used to kill his

parents and shoot 24 classmates were bought by a father trying to

redirect his son's fascination with weapons into a supervised hobby,

friends said Sunday.

Kip Kinkel's parents knew of his bomb-making fetish for at least a year

before Thursday's shooting in a crowded school cafeteria in which two

students were killed, friends have said.

The 9 mm Glock pistol and .22-caliber rifle Kinkel allegedly used in the

shootings were bought by his father, Bill Kinkel, said Rod Ruhoff.

"Bill felt that the boy was obsessed enough with guns that he would have

a gun, one way or another," said Ruhoff, a friend of the father. "The way

Bill could control the situation is if he owned the gun and had control

over it."

The parents told friends they tried to discipline Kip, 15, and got him into

anger-management counseling for a while. A distraught Bill Kinkel even

sought the advice of a stranger after learning the man was an expert in

antisocial behavior and juvenile delinquency.

Dan Close, who met Bill Kinkel six months ago at the San Diego airport,

recalled the father saying at the time that the boy was "totally obsessed"

by guns and would become uncontrollably angry when denied anything.

"I told Bill that raising kids is the toughest thing we'll ever do," Close

said. "And Bill said, 'If we survive."'

Bill and Faith Kinkel were believed to have been shot to death

Wednesday afternoon by their son. Kip is accused of driving their sport

utility vehicle to Thurston High School the next day, opening fire in a

crowded cafeteria and killing two students. Two other students remain in

critical condition.

The boy has been charged as an adult under Oregon law with four

counts of aggravated murder.

As this blue-collar town continued to mourn its loss and recover from the

shock Sunday, Kinkel was on suicide watch at a juvenile detention

facility, monitored by closed-circuit television.

It was about a year ago when the Kinkels discovered he was

downloading bomb-making instructions from the Internet and building

bombs, said Kim Scott, a best friend of Kip's sister, Kristin.

Police found five sophisticated bombs and 15 other inactive explosive

devices in the Kinkel house.

"Somehow, we didn't think it was ever going to turn out to be this

serious," Scott said. "Obviously we were wrong."

Kip ended his anger-management counseling sessions by convincing

his parents they were no longer needed, she said.

"They tried to discipline him and they tried to keep him from making

more bombs," said Scott, who grew up across the street from the Kinkels.

"But at some point, Kristin said, they just pretty much had given up on

being able to control him."

Ruhoff and other friends said Bill Kinkel normally kept the guns in a

locked gun safe and kept the only key with him at all times. But Ruhoff

said the father once placed the Glock temporarily in an athletic club

locker because Kip gained access to it without permission.

Thurston Principal Larry Bentz said that despite family friends and other

students knowing of Kinkel's fascination with guns and bombs, the

information never came to the attention of school authorities until they

suspended him for bringing a gun to school Wednesday.

"There was a little bit of a chip on his shoulder at times; he was a little

lippy," said Bentz, who said the school will reopen Tuesday. "There was

no ... outward signs."

(Mon May 25 1998 23:28 - ID#186147)
Holiday musing
Just logged on and saw StradMaster's post. It breaks my heart to read that he has suffered such a loss. Every time I play the tape of his great trio, my own life is enriched. Would that I could reciprocate. I have tried my best to warn folks here of the danger of being long in a bear market or short in a bull. I truly wish I had done a better job. Strad: Never forget that your family and your talent are riches beyond measure. God bless you, my

(Mon May 25 1998 23:33 - ID#402148)
..welp. Where do you think we are now?


(Mon May 25 1998 23:36 - ID#186147)
Hopefull: I am long Spoos and short gold.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:36 - ID#210114)
Thanx for your reply.

I guess my ultimate point is this. Once upon a time, we had a managed system of capitalism. After WW2, the Bretton Woods system established a structure for global capitalism. This, along with Keynesian spending, produced 'the Long Boom'. Unemployment was about 3% and inflation about the same. This lasted for 30 years. In 1971 - 74 the structure was destroyed and greed is good free market economic took over espoused by Reagan and Thatcher.

Since then unemployment has got worse, foreign debt has got worse, the rich have got heaps richer and the poor have got poorer. There are also more of them. The current system of capitalism encourageds greed and selfishness. It needs a structure; it needs an ethical basis. evan Adam Smith said that.

If the poor are made destitute, they will revolt. Look at Indonesia. To save society we must manage capitalism, not let it run ferral. Dickensian London was ferral capitalism. Children working in coal mines, the old sent to the workhouse.

Not the sort of society I want to live in.

The framers of Bretton Woods were reacting to the hardship of the Great Depression and the barbarity of WW2 which the Great Depression spawned. I don't want to see history repeat itself.

Live Long and Prosper ( in a civil society ) .

(Mon May 25 1998 23:38 - ID#288369)
You have belated mail....sorry, outta' town.

Your post is a sweet note for tired ears. Your Kitco needs you!

(Mon May 25 1998 23:42 - ID#347235)
@ Selby
When I was growing up "ANGER MANAGEMENT" meant my Mother whipping my butt when I needed it. Seemed to work pretty god.

When I raised my son the same method applied, ( much less often ) as he was not as ornery aas I was. Also with good results. If parents would apply the hand to the bottoms of some of these little brats we wouldnt have to hear all this crap. Social Workers/Psychology majors are the worst thing that ever happened to this country other then liberal commiecrat politics which gave them the means to ruin the country. Comments?

(Mon May 25 1998 23:45 - ID#413195)
Strad Master
Yes, welcome back, Strad . . . from one recent exile to another. Always enjoyed your posts for their wisdom and great equanimity. Hope you can get a stake and get back into the game, soon. Still got your Strad?

(Mon May 25 1998 23:51 - ID#186147)
Spare the Rod!!!
Retired: When I grew up, every boy I knew learned to shoot by the time he was 10 and had his own .22rifle and/or shotgun by the early teens. Of nearly 100 boys in my high school class, not a single felony has been registered in lo these 40 years. The main difference is that if the law as it is in my state now had prevailed in the '50's, at least 95 of those boys would have been removed
from their homes and their Dads carted off to jail. Child abuse, doncha know. Razor straps, switches and other instruments of torture are not allowed in this brave new world. And the children kill their parents. And the liberals call it PROGRESS!

(Mon May 25 1998 23:51 - ID#347235)
God=good when I type fast I make mistakes, should proffread before xmitting.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:52 - ID#342376)
Round 3? or 4? of the Asian Crisis
The flight to safety of the US looks like it may continue tomorrow. Dollar will do well and gold may not. If gold holds up or declines just a bit, I'll be happy. It's possible another leg up on the DOW and S&P. If there is another leg up, I'm breaking my promise of not buying any more Puts on the S&P. My name is crazytimes, I'm a Kitcoholic and a Putoholic.

(Mon May 25 1998 23:58 - ID#210114)
Is this true?
Clinton was the Viagra guinea pig??