Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:02 - ID#43349)
For many years companies have been getting bigger than countries. Countries are constrained. Not only by physical boundaries but
by cultural, tradition, and language boundaries. Companies are
not. In this age of globalization and massive cash flows countries
have become more vulnerable. Countries are becoming as old fashioned
a concept as the steam engine.

Any company, once it has reached sufficient size, that does not expand into each new territory that becomes available to it as national boundaries soften will fall by the wayside during the course of

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:03 - ID#373284)
I would not do business with China
Period...end of story...If he thinks the Chinese Communists are going to change one smigeon...he is so very wrong...they laugh at the West...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:06 - ID#187218)
You have a good point. The people commissioning the studies and analyses to deal with the costs sometimes overlook this because they feel that the 'manual laborers' can be called upon to do this in their normal job function with minimal overtime ,,,,, I assure you that the bean-counters allocating the estimated hours per unit device is padding this figure like crazy ,,,,, especially if it's in any way gubmint related... been there - seen it - have NOT done that ,,,


(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:10 - ID#43349)
Consider just the last hundred years, an exceedingly short time.
The same sort of disaster like, say, a small comet striking the
earth and disrupting the flow of commerce would have been much
kess devastating than today.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:15 - ID#411112)
Wetgold..thanks buddy...we are in deep sushi.....hope the politics of my web page did not scare you.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:15 - ID#187218)
To the elitist - National boundaries have been as antiquated for quite some time ,,,,, the demise of our Representative Republic has been continually increasing at a slow but steady pace... Ted Roosevelt threw a monkey-wrench into it ... the Princeton guy ( Wilson ) started his mess with Col. House, League of Nations, FRB, ad infinitum ..... FDR with his confiscation and changing the term of FDR appointments to 14 years THUS escaping any 1 President ,,, Johnson recinding Kennedy's Bill allowing the Treasury to circulate money shortly after his assassination ,,, Bretton Woods, Nixon, Two-Tiered currency ,,,

This is a slow boiling pot without enough knowledable frogs to alarm his brethren. The boundaries are controlled by those never heard from ,,, they use the 'Skull-n-Bones' crowd and 'Lierals' and 'Conservative' to muddy the water so that none of us know the truth ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:18 - ID#34883)
Isabel B Paterson, The God of the Machine.

Carl Menger, Investigations Into the Method of the Social Sciences.

Ludwig von Mises, Notes and Recollections.

Victor Hugo, 93

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:19 - ID#45173)
@Gollum: follow on to last night's point about no savings for this
market's suckers' rally.

You also noted that credit disappears quickly. This will have tragic consequences for a lot of folks who have no savings and use credit to cover emergency costs, such as medical, auto repair, etc.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:19 - ID#187218)
Politics only frighten those that are uninformed ,,, an informed citizenry frightens the politician and not vice-versa ,,,
I wish you luck on your page and hope that you can expand it to include alternative views such as mine.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:20 - ID#187218)
Menger and von Mises I have ... the other I will check out ...
Greatly appreciate your contributions to my sickness ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:20 - ID#411112)
Goodnite and silver markets may be closed tomorrow,but the window to put some cash on

REAL QUITE is open,yeah I know just like gold I bet with my heart

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:22 - ID#411112)
Wetgold...send me something I do not have a problem with that

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:22 - ID#43349)
Many of them THINK they have savings and retirement funds. Thier
plan is simply to tell the broker to cash in a few shares....

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:22 - ID#373284)
Should it be Chinese Communists, or the other way around...serious question...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:23 - ID#162241)
wetgold..... Books
Nothing to do with gold, but rather the gold in the reaches of the mind, from American authors: Two books and unfortunatly, I can only lay 'hands' by memory on the titles and authors so with a bit of digging. For those who are interested, they will discover the 'gold' at least that hidden here in;

An American Tragedy - Theoadore Dreisser

Studds Lonnigan - Sorry. can't put my finger on that author at this time.

Good reading. It will take the mind of $292 gold!!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:24 - ID#34883)
WetGold, I know what you mean.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:29 - ID#45173)
Gollum: "Countries are becoming as old fashioned a concept as the steam engine."
Nationalism has been on the wane for many years. Why fight about borders and religion when there's money to be made? But what happens when the plane stalls and money stops?


(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:30 - ID#262242)
Jack Daniels
Speaking of Jack Daniel's, last summer we visited the distillery in Lynchburg Tenn. After the tour we had a wonderful southern lunch at a hotel in Lynchburg. One of the diners, made a comment about the civil war, the young lady hosting our table said, "Suh, that was not the civil waar it was the waar of northern aggression, and you are going to be sorry we did not win it".

I am looking forward to the Kitco Konvention in August, looking forward to meeting you-all, will be good to see Reify and his beautiful wife again.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:30 - ID#43349)
The layman thinks the future will be pretty much the same as it is
right now and how it was as he grew up.

The engineer and scientist think the future will change at pretty
much the same rate as it is changing right now.

Neither of these projections accurately anticipate the rate at which
the rate of change itself is changing.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:32 - ID#187218)
tolerant1 ,,,,
'Chinese Communists' uses the adjective 'Chinese' to describe the subject while the 'Communist Chinese' utilize 'Chinese' as the subject of the sentence.

the way you position the word order depends on the point you wish to make.

"Chinese Communists invaded Tiannamen Square" slants the sentence toward that of bias toward Communists while "Communist Chinese ... " disfavors the Chinese.

If one was defining a political position and wished not to offend the Chinese government you would use "Chinese Communists ... ".

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:34 - ID#373284)

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:35 - ID#255284)
anyone for a spot of gastromancy?
Hugo's 93, his best,perhaps, aye.

what did I say? I did not mean to cause offence.

shan't tell you what I got up to at 6:06 on 6/6, seeing as how it was 10 hours ago, I have all but forgotten.

"Stephen H. Kapit makes predictions of Junior Canadian Gold
Stocks, and global events from information received in his dreams"

umm, yeah, do like it, dreams are about as reliable as charts, nostrodamus and gastromancy predicting the future, but wouldn't pay for it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:39 - ID#373284)
BillinOregon, Namaste'
Hope all is well...we are attempting to get all in order so as to make everyone comfortable and allow for the time to enjoy the visit...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:39 - ID#43349)
Capital and investment interest move from country as individual planes
stall. They look to others still in flight or taking off anew. It
is the steam engined countries p;anes that crash, not the turbo charged
craft of shadowy financial empires and international countries.

The globalized economy is becoming sectorized along functional
lines an losing the division along nationalistic lines.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:39 - ID#187218)
Read American Tragedy while back ,,, Studds Lonnigan ?? what the genre here ..

thanx for the input...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:46 - ID#187218)
Cultural lines being diminished ???
This forum with which we all derive pleasure is crossing the boundaries never before seen ... we freely and openly comunicate with each other, despite what our respective gubmints wish ,,, there exists ( on this forum alone ) perhaps 10-15 countries across the planet and we get along nicely ,,, Russians, Americans, British, S. Africans, Aussies, Hong Konger ( ? ) , ,,,,, we are free to say what we wish ( for now ) and no one is taking our respective culture away ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:50 - ID#162241)
wetgold... Studds Lonigan
Gendre is.. an alagory

America seen as a boy, growing up, but with the inherant fumbles of youth. Set in the 20's . A great read! But for the life of me, can not put my finger of the book or author. Search your library, you will find it. It's a real tragedy of 1920...

I read it 30 years ago.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:50 - ID#187218)
20 hours of play and no work ... I'm not tired just gonna take a walk on a crisp and bright night,,,
goodnight to all ,,, coupla' more days to go somewhere other than here ,,, not sure if this is a good thing BUT: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of a dull mind" ,,,

have a good night!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:51 - ID#187218)
Thank you. I will find it and report back ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:51 - ID#43349)
MOST of the time we get along nicely. But I know what you mean.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:54 - ID#43349)
another day
I think I will abandon this bastion for the evening and leave the
net to whatever goes bump in the night.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:58 - ID#187218)
"Young Manhood of Studs Lonigan" by James T. Farrell ( 1934 ) .

I will read this ...

Thanx again...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 00:59 - ID#238422)
RJ, Chopin was a great Polish music writter....
but I like much more a few things by the other Polish music
writter, his name was Oginsky. Did you ever hear his polonez
called "Farewell to the Motherland?" - one of the best
music compositions ever...

I'm not sure but I believe that the picture you see
through the bottle is the picture of Chopin. Bottle looks
like a million bucks, no doubt about it. Polish vodka
is generally O.K., but nothing really special...Chopin vodka
is a high quality product, but too pricey indeedy...I would
drink it all right, I did try it a couple of times in a
company with some Polish artist ( woodcurver ) whose name
was Dobby, nice guy. We had the whole bottle for two,
but nothing happened, I stayed in the U.S. and he came back
to Poland...Guess, it's drinkable...

Anyway, thanks for sharing your secret on semi-monthly
activity. In conclusion, I would advise you to try
Black-n-White Smirnoff, also another brand, Kremlevskaya,
both made in Russia. The last could be usually
found in duty-free shops in airports, but Smirnoff is exported
to the U.S., from time to time you can get it even in Meyer
Store for just $20. Black-n-White Smirnoff is so perfect,
no other brand of vodka even comes close. Try it, and you
will understand what I mean...

Do not put vodka in a freezer, it is decadence...
Just chill it slightly, and do not forget about pickle...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:06 - ID#162241)
Thank You. Your memory is better than mine. 10:10p.m. In Victotia BC. Best we talk tomorrow.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:12 - ID#45173)
oris & RJ: Black-and-White Smirnoff? No kidding? I'll take your word for it
and try some. I like Polish potato vodkas. Chopin is good but overpriced. Try Feton Glacier potato vodka, made in 'merica. It's as good but about 2/3 the price. Squat, square bottle with a glass doorknob cap.

Decadent to put it in the freezer? But isn't that the whole point?


(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:13 - ID#222235)
@Dear Tol1
If Mike Sheller ever becomes Pres. I'll make sure you get Secretary of State. We'll have to find another job for Studio.r.

Maybe he'd be happy with the treasury job. I'll check with him.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:15 - ID#222235)
@Dear friends at ICQ chat
Not only did I get the bounce, but ICQ can't find a line to let me back in.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:27 - ID#162241)
WetGold.... also
The Last Lion ( Churchill ) - Manchester. Two parts of the series out. I doubt we will ever see the third.

Also, Mornings on Horesback - McCullough: Early Theo Roosevelt life

All of this American ( with a little British ) stuff from a Canadian! See see seme Canadian stuff from my American friends!!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:31 - ID#287129)
WetGold (Cultural lines being diminished ???)
I like what you said in your 00:46 post. Certainly one of the greatest advantages of the internet is that it truly crosses international boundaries, so that we may discover that we are all citizens of the human race. Unfortunately, it is our governments and religious leaders who create strife, distrust in other nations, and wars...the people mostly just follow their governments and/or their religious leaders. Perhaps someday we will learn to live in worldwide harmony while maintaining our separate unique cultures. I've said for years that this planet needs the best of the East and the West...and forget the rest. ( ...not the rest of the world, but the negative stuff. )

Meanwhile, let's hope that enough people wise up to the value of PM's soon enough to benefit those of us who have been bleeding financially for making the right decisions at the wrong time...before we lose everything.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:46 - ID#238422)
EJ, freezer is good for ice-cream, but
when you put vodka in it, you changes it's properties,
including viscosity, and believe me, taste, indeedy...

To get the most satisfaction from the drink, you must
have a correct food ( or appertizer ) with this drink.
For high quality vodka, you should not freeze it, just
put in refrigirator for 1 hour, fix yourself a sandwich with
black caviar on butter ( unsalted only ) on white fresh
bread, have a shot and then bite the sandwich...
Another way is to fix sandwich with cold smoked salmon
and a drop of lemon juice. Pickle is a universal solution.

Do not eat caviar on the cracker or without butter,
that is a real decadence and against all rules of eating

(Sat Jun 06 1998 01:49 - ID#401460)


Lack of congressional action and a move toward isolationism have left the International Monetary Fund in a financial bind that threatens the global economy, U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin warned late Thursday.

"The development of the global economy has brought tremendous benefits to Americans... Millions owe their jobs directly or indirectly to trade, and all benefit through the lower prices and greater choice that international competition fosters. Our economic well-being truly is inextricably linked to the rest of the world."

["Here is one optimist's reason for believing unity will prevail... I'll bet that within the next hundred years, nationhood as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. A phrase briefly fashionable in the mid-20th century -- 'citizen of the world' -- will have assumed real meaning by the end of the 21st ..." -- U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, TIME magazine column, July 20, 1992.]


(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:23 - ID#252127)
No Bad Feelings Toward THE AUSTRIALIANS, but

you should bury your politicians testicle deep next to an Ant Hill.
A billion dollar rescue package for your puny currency and this after you let them sell yer gold to screw the yeller.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:36 - ID#255151)
D-Marks To Be Used As Compost!

You gotta see this. This German company, Umweltschutz, is going to use the old D-Marks as fertilizer. 40 liter bags, about a wheel barrow's worth, go for about $3.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:42 - ID#255284)
Your cash ain't nothing but trash? Ja?
cheap wallpaper, yes?

For lovers of beer only:

(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:55 - ID#287186)
Promey - you are welcome anytime at the KB&G.
At the time of this post ( two hours ahead of me ) we have four at the bar.
BUT YOU DO HAVE THE HONOR - of being tossed out of teh KB&G ;- (

(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:55 - ID#255151)
Beer Humour

Warning--Politically Incorrect

John Disney__A
(Sat Jun 06 1998 02:56 - ID#24135)
Vodka, Religion, and Russian Planes
for Brother Oris ..
I still like absolute flavored with black current..
Does that break rules of eating science??
. Also saw good documentory on Russian Air Force that
confirms Russian planes much sturdier that US. Also
pilots can scramble much faster and planes dont
require same degree of extreme high quality
On subject Poland .. Did you see Movie "three colours
- white " ?? I liked it.

For James
Did you get the lady's phone number ?? I spoke to
old guy with "Jesus Saves" sign. He said the Big Guy
was buying puts. Would like to confirm info.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 03:01 - ID#187109)
vodkas,pickles,aurators,gold,and...of course....CHARTS.
from a stochastics point of view..........on weekly.....uh huh....

this one is not making ANY rallies is going down, down, down.

this one looks goooooood....

this one still may have bottom to make.....

a big pennant forming...... ( ? ) ....why?

I am totally with you cherokee.......smoke signals are heavy.....

new heights here????? neversaynever....

such loftiness...........still looks good......hmmm...

sayonara civic...... ( ugh ) ....

possible good news for more rigs? ( ? ) ...

gold and CAN$ two pees in a pod...... ( yikes ) ...

speaking of Vodka...I'll have mine shaken....not stirred.......the name??!? Well, Bond.....James Bond.......and I have just started my blowoff....................

nuff said here............. the witching hour....




(Sat Jun 06 1998 03:19 - ID#413109)
Herr Alberich,der Zweig, and Mr. Wetgold-
Your posts about the Y2K problems, and each with his individual approach and
reasoning, makes for very interesting reading, especially to those of us who take
this problem seriously.

Wish to add a thought or two of my own, which of course has nothing to do with
the technical aspects of your arguments ( discussion ) . In my life's experiences and
observations, I find things are never as good, nor as bad, as they appear on the
surface. This, I feel will also be true, regarding the Y2K problems. However the one
overwhelming factor that is a hidden ( unknown ) , is the human factor in this equasion.
How will people ( masses-crowd-herd ) react when they learn that the experts are unable
to solve all of the problems in time, or, in some cases ever???

Ich wuensche alle ein schoenes Wochenende....wishen y'all a great weekend!!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 03:21 - ID#255284)

more beer.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 03:43 - ID#335184)
IaMFer's - Musings from the Banana Republic
Bloomberg reported today that the IaMFer's have established an agreement between Corporate Indonesian debt with Western Banks for a moratorium of principal on $78 Billion in loans for a 3 year period with a possible t5 year extension.

This means that the Banks have come to accept for the moment that there is no hope of nationalizing this debt a la Korea & that the IaMFer's don't currently have the cash to cover this embarassment. They have probably worked out a "Mexican Bridge Loan Deal" where when the IaMFers come up with the cash they will bail the banks' water, but for now it's the best the banks could do.
What kinds of tricks must be applied by regulators so as to not show these loans as non-performing ?
This amounts to a standstill agreement so everyone can catch their breath and avoid saying the word insolvent & to give the banks a fig leaf to hide behind instead of writing these defaulted loans off.

I wonder if the situation is any better in Malaysia or China. The majority of Korea's debt in short term maturities should be cooked about now as well. The IaMFer's don't have enough money to cover it all. That's why they are arranging these private moratoriums & why they were able to get such quick & low key approval from the money center banks. The man with the sandwitch board sign is quite correct, the end is near.The Ailing Tigers agree to pretend they're not insolvent & that they might some day repay, thev banks agree not to press repayment as if there was any hope of same & the Regulators pretend that these loans are performing & allow the banks to keep these loans on their books as assets. Sounds a lot like the Japanese system.
In addition to the real losses posed by the loan defaults, there have been heavy loses in sheer derivitive speculations by banks which will show up in July & August P&L's. IMHIPO this could be the percipitating factor that tilts the S&P over for the final spill.



(Sat Jun 06 1998 03:51 - ID#255151)

Most people I talk with about Y2K seem to have made a decision to ignore it. The implications upset them, so they choose not to think about it. About 10% take it as a real problem. Only 2 people I know are actually taking steps to deal with it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 04:01 - ID#257148)
I know of noone, apart from self, taking any Y2K Prophylaxis. I shall advise if I meet anyone who is taking precautions.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:02 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
On the supply-demand side, it's obvious that silver's price should raise soon. ( If only this were the only factor! ) Here are some numbers supporting this case. According to the US-based Silver Institute, 1997 mine production -- about 510 million ounces -- and scrap recycling -- 150 million ounces -- fell short of demand by almost 200 million ounces. Demand is still greatest in the US, India and Japan, with each country consuming between 125 and 170 million ounces annually. The greatest industrial use -- 320 million ounces -- is in batteries and electrical / electronic-related goods, with the latter grouping growing the most. Silver used in jewelry and silverware accounted for about 280 million ounces ( up by 5% over 1996 ) , more than a third of that going to consumers in India. Photographic uses amount to about 230 million ounces. The largest growth in demand continues to be in the Third World.
There is no reality except the fact that the Clinton dollar is better than gold, silver, PGMs and other funny money from around the word. Now, do I find that amazing - yes I do - I think the guy is a lying SOB. However, as I ponder my losses in the resource markets even an idiot like me must come to realize that as long as the US markets and economy continue as they are the resource stocks will be weak.
On the Eve of Christmas in December of 1997, when all was quiet on Wall Street, and last minute shoppers were preoccupied with battling the mad late-day rush, Nasdaq market makers quietly agreed to pay $1 billion to settle a class action suite that investors brought against them. The charges were ugly. "Collusion," "gouging," "extortion," you name it. If it sounded like the charges were befit a two-bit mobster, they were in there. Yet, the world slept. It was no mistake that these financial "mobsters" decided to settle on the day before Christmas. The market makers, which included big names like Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, PaineWebber, and Morgan Stanley, were fully aware that this pre-holiday settlement would get lost in the shuffle.
Daytrader oriented, but applicable to everyone who trades on the Nasdaq. :- ) )
WOE BE US. The whole world is going to come apart because of a whole new BUG on the planet. Hope it doesn't turn into some form of cockroach. They last forever.
Just saw Chicken Little squawking and flapping his wings down the street.
Think I'll have a double Scotch on the rocks!
Yup, I did see it. Once again, those danged foreigners keep calling this bubble a bubble. Even the ones who can almost speak American.
It seems odd to me that American economists are saying nothing about the money supply mainlining amphetamines. That is the main reason behind the bubble. Alan gathers kudos while he is the great enabler of our money growth addiction. Well, you can't have 2-4% GDP growth and 10-14% money growth co-existing forever. We've already had these economic strange bedfellows a lot longer than I expected. The longer it goes on, the more likely the market is to crash all at once instead of tapering off. Man, my put positions would hate that.
Thought you would appreciate the following story:
This AM, I was ahead on my OEX puts. The market started to turn...I went to cover...The hard drive in my Compaq crapped out temporarily, ( on its way to permanent failure no doubt ) . by the time I could get anything done about the situation...I had lost 3 times what the G.D. 4 month old computer was worth.
I don't think profanity on the internet is appropriate but...!@#$%$#@!@@#
I just want to let everyone know that the sleazebags over at the TSE have taken to making threats against SI on account of one of their market makers up there having the nerve to post his personal experiences and his opinions of management's competence on the Canadian Options board. I hope some of you will drop on over to the thread and join me in expressing your contempt for these pigs who have appointed themselves as police over a persons thoughts.
America bubbles over

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:08 - ID#287186)
Gagnrad - you are NOT the only fan of Jack Daniels
though I have to admit to a sweet tooth for Southern Comfort and Yukon Jack. Check my recent post on K2 for a concoction guaranteed to curl your nose hairs. I use Jack Daniels for those who figure my other favorites make it too sweet.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:11 - ID#284255)
U.S. Fears Year 2000 Bug Could Spook Russian Forces
WASHINGTON -- ( Reuters ) The United States is drawing up plans to keep Russia and others from being spooked into millennium bug-related "nightmare" military scenarios, a top Pentagon official said on Thursday.

In a stark warning about the Year 2000 computer glitch threat, Deputy Defense Secretary John Hamre cited a need to calm Russian nuclear forces in particular if the "bug" caused their computers to crash, as many systems may fail worldwide.

"What kind of unrest will occur around the world is of great concern," he said, echoing the view of the Central Intelligence Agency office studying the issue.

Calling the Y2K glitch the electronic equivalent of El Nino weather pattern, Hamre said: "This is going to have implications in the world and in American society we can't even comprehend."

"I will be first to say we're not going to be without some nasty surprises," he said.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:15 - ID#284255)
Wall St prepares to fight Y2K bug
ALL Street is throwing considerable muscle into cleaning up the Year 2000 glitch in the computers that process billions of dollars worth of trades daily, even pitching in to help smaller firms with shorter purse strings get on track.

But, after a battery of tests, companies not up to speed by June 1999 could be left out in the cold.

Merrill Lynch and Co Inc has said that brokers that do not show any improvement after the testing will be cut off.

"Most companies never test all their systems at the same time -- let alone test them in conjunction with the systems of other companies,"
400-year-old device hit by millennium bug

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:39 - ID#284255)
Y2K In Arab Lands: Complacency leads to Panic

Bottom Line:
This sudden awareness with very little time remaining is a sure prescription for panic. The stage is set.

Also, there is talk of US$600 billion of Middle Eastern money lying in US stocks and bonds. Imagine if a significant portion of this is brought back or converted to precious metals. Would it cause a stampede out of an already too high market?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:41 - ID#255151)
Fascinating Spy Stuff

From the Sunday Times of London. Big NSA spy base in Britain has Europeans in a snit. Germany, France suspect them of commercial espionage.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 05:43 - ID#255151)
Try again

(Sat Jun 06 1998 06:37 - ID#26793)
Chances uf U.S. Congress giving $18 billion to IMF are "very, very low"

(Sat Jun 06 1998 06:42 - ID#26793)
Squabble over new derivatives rules moves up a notch.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 06:47 - ID#26793)
Newmont, Normandy news.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 06:57 - ID#26793)
Lack of free markets leaves Belarus without food.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 07:07 - ID#284255)
Aragorn III - re your 12:16
If you have a look in your windows folder for the file;
Internet Explorer Wallpaper.bmp
This is the latest wallpaper.
You can rename this file to what you want ie. Goldcoins.bmp
And reset it as your wallpaper.
Any bmp file can be set as your wallpaper.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 07:18 - ID#187218)
Reify@03:19 re: 'Why too Kay'
You posted:
"... especially to those of us who take this problem seriously ... ".
Those who take a contrary position from the traditional thinking should not be accused of being cavalier in their intentions ... being a very intense person I have no choice than to view my endeavors seriously ...
Was habe ich zu tun - other then - dann habe schoenes Wochenende. Tchuss!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 07:58 - ID#72316)
@ WETGOLD reading
Noam Chomsky's books,,, Class warfare, and a couple of others.. Painfull to read, not sure it's holiday stuff. Eye opening IMHO...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:01 - ID#413109)
Wetgold-Please email
I was referring to myself wheN I said those of us that take the
problem seriously. I've approached, neighbors, friends and family,
and it seems I'm the only one taking this seriously.
Ich war nicht bereit fuer eine Deutsche Unterhaltung, und dachte
das nur der Alberich von Deutschland kame.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:17 - ID#426220)
New Wall Street Barometer: the Chicago Bulls

It will be necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" before pasting the URL to your Internet locator:

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:21 - ID#248180)
Golden/Platinum Sumptuous Cuisine "thank you Stephanie da Silva"
Salmon in Vodka Cream Sauce with Green Peppercorns

From: ( Stephanie da Silva )
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 19:10:02 GMT

8 tablespoons butter
1 onion, thinly sliced
1 pound spinach
6 6 ounce salmon fliets
salt and freshly ground pepper
3 tablespoons olive oil
1 1/2 cups whipping cream
1/2 cup vodka
2 tablespoons green peppercorns in water, drained and crushed
3 tablespoons fresh lime juice
1/4 cup snipped fresh chives

Preheat oven to 350F. Combine 4 tablespoons butter and onion in large
Dutch oven. Cover and bake until onion is golden brown, stirring
occasionally, about 45 minutes.

Stir spinach into onion and bake until just wilted, about 3 minutes.
Remove from oven; keep warm.

Season salmon with salt and pepper. Heat oil in heavy large skillet
over high heat. Add salmon in batches and cook about 3 minutes per side
for medium. Transfer to platter. Tent with foil to keep warm. Pour
off excess oil from skillet. Add cream and vodka and boil until slightly
thickened, about 4 minutes. Add green peppercorns and remaining 4
tablespoons butter and stir until butter is just melted. Mix in lime
juice, season with salt and pepper.

Divide spinach and onion mixture among plates. Top each with salmon
fillet. Spoon sauce over. Sprinkle with snipped fresh chives.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:26 - ID#347267)

In an effort to "pay my dues" to this erudite group, I submit the following "dissertation" which I sent to all the members of my widely scattered family in mid-April. Parts were gleaned from other sources, but the thought was mine; I claim no rights, and you may feel free to use all or part should you also wish to provide a warning to the members of your clans.

It is interesting that the only member of my family that seems at all interested in the Y2k problem is my 82 year old uncle ( the patriarch of our clan, and the one responsible for me being on the 'net!! ) and that he also moved his money to a money market fund as a result of my message to him.

Best Regards, Mtn Bear


April 1998

Dear Family,

I have been in and following this great bull market in stocks/mutual funds for more than 3 years, now. At the risk of seeming to stick my nose in whar it don' b'long, ( and also being wrong ) , I want to share with you my opinions.

I feel that the market is at or very near a peak that will be the highest we will see for several years. If you are still holding your mutual funds, or holding mutual funds in your 401-K plans, I recommend you move all ( or at a minimum half, if you don't agree with my conclusions and want to wait for the down trend to start ) to the related fund family money market fund immediately. The Money Mkt Fund will pay around 4 1/2 percent interest, and be SAFE.

This market has exceeded all expectations and, in my opinion, is a great BUBBLE in the last stages of expansion like in 1987, and perhaps even like 1929. EVERYONE is in the market with stocks or mutual funds. Granted, it can still go higher ( how high is the sky? ) . But the basic idea of investing is to buy low and sell high; the market is HIGH! The decline, when it starts, could be slow and orderly, or it could be another crash on the order of 1987. If it is a crash, when the thing starts down there may be no time to sell; everyone will be trying to sell at once. You may not be able to reach the mutual fund to get your sell order in. In other words, do it while you can and before you

lose the profits you have made over the last months/years. The worst that will happen is that you will lose out on the remaining momentum in this bull, which may not be more than 3 to 5 percent. By the way, most mutual fund families have a web site, and you can set it up to monitor your account and make exchanges on the 'net.

There are many forces at work which may not be clear right now, but which will become clearer over the next few months. We are in the midst of "a very rosy" ( as seen through rose tinted glasses ) time; the media says it can't get any better than this. Guess what, they may be right, but it CAN get worse! They have been harping that there is ZERO inflation; do you really believe that?

Has the price you paid for groceries, restaurants, incidentals stayed the same for the last year?? As a for instance, the price for rabies shots at our local vet went from $7 a pop last year to $12 this

year. ( After all, the vet's got to put money in the market too, right?? ) BUT THERE'S NO INFLATION!

Guess what happens when Greenspan decides that the full employment we now have leads to price increases ( "in the pipe line and on the way" ) ; or that the market is overheated like his "IRRATIONAL EXUBERANCE" statement of last year meant. He and his Federal Reserve will raise

interest rates to "cool off the economy", and bull markets do not like interest rate increases. This may be the pin that pricks the stock market "Bubble", or it may be something else from out of the blue. It may be that THEY are right about inflation, but we get deflation, and markets don't like deflation either! Also, Clinton is still Clinton. Saddam is still Saddam.

What if the price of oil does NOT continue to go down or stay low, but starts UP; OPEC IS stirring of late. The Asian situation still has not played itself out, and it caused a big drop last October, which has now apparently been forgotten. There are plenty of other unknowns out there, not the least of which is the "Y2k" problem which I have already been trying to get you to at least think about.

Another factor: gold mutual funds and the gold mining stocks have been in a multi-year declining bear market and may be in the process of forming a "bottom". One factor which may be affecting gold and our own economy is the planned introduction of a common european currency at the beginning of the year 2000 ( which may be partially backed by gold reserves 10 to 30% ) similar to our own now dead gold standard. The French, Germans and Italians have maintained massive

gold reserves through all of the gold bear market, even though one of the things driving the price of gold down was the reported selling of gold by foreign central banks. The implications of a gold backed currency are not good for "the almighty dollar", and as the dollar goes, so goes our economy.

As a companion to all of the above, I am including quotes from a chapter in a book by Benjamin Graham written in 1934; he is known as the "Father of Modern ( value ) Security Analysis".

The words were written after the '29 crash but, in my opinion, have direct application to the current stock market.


Benjamin Graham in the 1934 edition of his classic investment treatise, "Security Analysis," devoted a whole section of the book to the theory of "New-Era of Investing." What follows are excerpts from that chapter.

"Investment in common stocks was formerly based upon the threefold concept of: ( 1 ) a suitable and established divided return; ( 2 ) a stable and adequate earnings record; and ( 3 ) a satisfactory backing of tangible assets Two of the three elements stated above lost nearly all of their significance, and the third, the earnings record, took on an entirely novel complexion ( in the months leading up to the '29 crash ) . The new theory or principle may be summed up in the sentence: The value of a common stock depends entirely upon what it will earn in the future. From this dictum the following corollaries were drawn:

1. That the dividend rate should have slight bearing upon the value.

2. That since no relationship apparently existed between assets and earning power, the asset value was entirely devoid of importance.

3. That past earnings were significant only to the extent that they indicated what changes in the earnings were likely to take place in the future.

"Why did the investing public turn its attention from dividends, from asset values, and from earnings, to transfer it almost exclusively to the earnings trend, i.e., to the changes in earnings expected in the future? The answer was, first, that the records of the past were proving an undependable guide to investment; and secondly, that the rewards offered by the future had become irresistibly alluring. "The new-era concepts had their root first of all in the obsolescence of the old-established standards. During the last generation, the tempo of economic change has been speeded up to such a degree that the fact of being long established has ceased to be, as it once was a warranty of stability. "A new conception was given central importance--that of trend of earnings. The past was important only in so far as it showed the direction in which the future could be expected to move.

( "The notion that the desirability of a common stock was entirely independent of its price seems incredibly absurd. "  Benjamin Graham )

If an attempt were to be made to give a mathematical expression to the underlying idea of valuation, it might be said that it was based on the derivative of the earnings, stated in terms of time.


"Along with this idea as to what constituted the basis for common-stock selection, there emerged a companion theory that common stocks represented the most profitable and therefore the most desirable media for long-term investment. This gospel was based upon a certain amount of research, showing that diversified lists of common stocks had regularly increased in value over stated intervals of time for many years past. "The combination of these two ideas supplied the

"investment theory" upon which the 1927-1929 stock market proceeded. The theory ran as follows:

1. 'The value of a common stock depends on what it can earn in the future.

2. 'Good common stocks will prove sound and profitable investments.

3. 'Good common stocks are those which have shown a rising trend of earnings.'

"The statements sound innocent and plausible. Yet they concealed two theoretical weaknesses which could and did result in untold mischief.

The first of these defects was that they abolished the fundamental distinctions between investment and speculation. The second was that they ignored the price of a stock in determining whether it was a desirable purchase. A moment's thought will show that "new-era investment," as practiced by the representative investment trusts, was almost identical with speculation as popularly defined in pre-boom days It would not be inaccurate to state that new-era investment was simply

old-style speculation confined to common stocks with a satisfactory trend of earnings.. "The notion that the desirability of a common stock was entirely independent of its price seems incredibly absurd. Yet the new-era theory led directly to this thesis. " The impressive new concept underlying the GREATEST STOCK-MARKET BOOM IN HISTORY appears to be no more than a thinly disguised version of the old CYNICAL epigram: 'Investment is successful speculation.'

Pre-boom standard, the conclusion to be drawn was not that the stock was now too high but merely that the standard of value had been raised. Instead of judging the market price by established standards of value, the new-era based its standards of value upon the market price.

Hence all upper limits disappeared, not only upon the price at which a stock could sell, but even upon the price it deserved to sell. This fantastic reasoning actually led to the purchase for investment at $100 per share of common stocks earning $2.50 per share. The identical reasoning would support the purchase of these same shares at $200, at $1000, or at any conceivable price.

"An alluring corollary of this principle was that making money in the stock market was now the easiest thing in the world. It was only necessary to buy "good" stocks, regardless of price, and then to let nature take her upward course "An ironical sidelight is thrown on this 1928-1929 theory by the practice of the INVESTMENT TRUSTS.


These were formed for the purpose of giving the untrained public the benefit of expert administration of its funds But most paradoxical was the early abandonment of research and analysis in guiding investment-trust policies. However, since these financial institutions owed their existence to the new-era philosophy, it was natural and perhaps only just that they should adhere closely to it. Under its cannons, investment had now become so beautifully simple that research was unnecessary and statistical data a mere encumbrance. The investment process consisted merely of finding prominent companies with a rising trend of earnings, and then buying their shares regardless of the price.

Hence the sound policy was to buy only what every one else was buying--a select list of highly popular and exceedingly expensive issues, appropriately known as the "blue chips." The original idea of searching for the undervalued and neglected issues dropped completely out of sight. Investment trusts actually boasted that their portfolios consisted exclusively of the active and standards ( i.e., the most popular and highest price ) common stocks.


"The man in the street, having been urged to entrust his funds to the superior skill of investment experts--for substantial compensation--was soon reassuringly told that the trusts would be careful to buy nothing except what the man in the street was buying. "IRRATIONALITY could go no further."


"The self-deception of the mass speculator must, however, have its elements of justification. This is usually some generalized statement, sound enough within its proper field, but twisted to fit

the speculative mania. In real-estate booms, the "reasoning" is usually based upon the inherent permanence and growth of land values. It is amazing and alarming to see that the "investment" techniques used then and now are identical, driven by the great investment oxymoron "momentum

investing." In the new-era bull market ( of 1927-1929 ) , the "rational" basis was the record of long-term improvement showed by diversified common stock holdings....

"Hence in using the past performances of common stocks as the reason for paying prices 20 to 40 times their earnings,


the new-era exponents were starting with a sound premise and twisting it into a woefully unsound conclusion "Considering the 1927-1929 period, we observe that since the trend-of-earnings theory was, at bottom, only a pretext to excuse rank speculation under the guise of "investment," the profit-mad public was quite willing to accept the flimsiest evidence of the existence of a favorable trend. Rising earnings for a period of five, or four, or even three years only, were regarded as an insurance of uninterrupted future growth and a warrant for projecting the curve of profits indefinitely upward "The prevalent heedlessness on this score was most evident in connection with the numerous common-stock flotation's during this period. The craze for a showing of rising profits resulted in the promotion of many industrial enterprises which had been favored by temporary good fortune and were just approaching, or had actually reached, the peak of their prosperity."

Graham concluded the chapter on the new-era theory as follows:

"This illustrates one of the paradoxes of financial history, viz., that at the very period when the increasing instability of individual companies had made the purchase of common stocks far more precarious than before, the gospel of common stocks as safe and satisfactory

investments was preached to and avidly accepted by the American public."


If just a few outdated phrases were changed, the above would pass for a completely accurate synopsis of "investment" practice in 1997-1998. It is amazing and ( should be ) frightening to see that the "investment" techniques used then and now are IDENTICAL!!!

I have said my piece; if all this seems opinionated and intrusive, I'm sorry, I do not wish to be. I just feel as if I owe you all something. And if you are already in money market funds, good for

you; but if not, remember, in spite of what everyone is led to believe:


TFW ( The Family Worrier )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:27 - ID#187218)
arby:,,, appreciate your input ,,,
Thank you - I have all known Chomsky works - I enjoy them ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:29 - ID#248180)
Oris, RJ, J. Disney, EJ & ALL - All that talk of Vodka made me
hungry. I thought I would share the recipe with you for your weekend pleasure. Bon Appetite. It is great try it. The recipe did not mention one very important activity that must take place during the preparation period. Between each step of the entire process, shots of vodka and bites of pickles must be eaten as snacks by all present. Yes of course the Head Chef gets two shots and two bites of the pickle.
Cheers and a good weekend to all.
Next week will be a "Bottler". Live long and prosper
Good night from OZ.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:32 - ID#187218)
Reify@08:01 ,,,, Enschuldigen Sie mir.,,,
Alberich die Zweige ist eine Americanisher - er hat eine website re: Y2K.,, Sind Sie Deuscher wenn ich fragen darf ?
Von welchen statt - UND - was fuer keine arbeit ,,,
Viel Gluck!!!
Have Sie die photo des Schloss Neuschwanstein 'posted' gesehen ????

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:33 - ID#187218)
eine == keine --- es tut mir leid

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:36 - ID#410114)
Fed reseve
ate: Fri Jun 05 1998 22:23
3-cubed ( @ROB 20:23 POST ) ID#344239:
No its not. It does make money of out thin air

And a private organization could not use police powers to compell the of its products.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:38 - ID#187218)
Mtn Bear (SE):
You are in good company quoting Benjamin Graham ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:40 - ID#187218)
Not sure what you are saying here - could U clarify your position ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:42 - ID#413109)
all questions answered, Wetgold-
but via email please. Ich sin Ihnen sehr Dankbar.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:53 - ID#210235)
Thanks for sharing the book list. Weekends at Kitco, books, recipe and jokes. This is fun. I think first I need to read more about Winston Churchill. His one-liners floor me.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 08:55 - ID#195112)
Your posting is a valuable asset to any who read and absorb.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:03 - ID#45173)
oris: vodka + caviar sandwich recipe
Just got off the phone with some friends. Tonight we get together on my their front porch for chilled, not frozen, Black-and-White Smirnoff with caviar and fresh white bread with butter. Thanks!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:04 - ID#187218)
Mt Bear: ,,,,, FYI ,,,
Anderson, Benjamin M.: 1979r. Economics and The Public Welfare - A Financial and Economic History of the United States, 1914-1946.

Anderson,Dan: 1979. Passport to Riches.

Boehm-Bawerk, Eugen von: 1959. Captial and Interest - Vol I, History and Critique of Interest Theories - Vol. II, Positive Theory of Capital - Vol. III, Further Essays on Capital and Interest.

Bastiat. Frederic: 1996. The Law.

Bastiat. Frederic: 1996. Economic Sophisms.

Bernstein,Leopold A.: 1983. Financial Statement Analysis - Theory, Application, and Interpretation.

Bernstein, Peter L., ed.: 1995. The Portable MBA in Investment.

Bittman, James B.: 1997. Options for the Stock Investor.

Blackman,Irving: 1983. Starting a Business.

Blanchard, James U. III: 1995. How to profit from the coming Bull Market in Silver - Silver Bonanza.

Bingham,Robert C.: 1987. Study Guide to accompany McConnell Economics.

Buffett, Mary, et al.: 1997. Buffettology.

Bygrave, William D., ed.: 1997. The Portable MBA in Entrepreneurship.

Chapin, Aaron L.: 1879. First Principles of Political Economy.

Davis,Andrew: 1901. Currency and Banking in the province of the Massachusetts-Bay - Part II - Banking.

Davis,Andrew: 1901. Currency and Banking in the province of the Massachusetts-Bay - Part I - Currency.

Dent,Harry S.: 1993. The Great Boom Ahead.

FEE.: 1995. The Lustre of Gold.

FEE.: 1993. Bankers and Regulators.

Fischer,Stanley, et al.: 1988. Introduction to Macroecomonics.

Friedman, Milton & Rose: 1980. Free to Choose: A Personal Statement.

Galbraith, John Kenneth: 1958. The Affluent Society.

Graham, Benjamin: 1937r. The Interpretation of Financial Statements.

Graham, Benjamin: 1937r. Storage and Stability.

Graham, Benjamin: 1973r. The Intelligent Investor - A book of practical counsel.

Graham, Benjamin, et al.: 1934r. Security Analysis.

Haberler, Gottfried: 1974. Economic growth and stability: An analysis of economic change.

Haroldsen,Mark O.: 1980. Financial Genius.

Holbrook, Stewart H.: 1953. The Age of the Moguls.

Hook, Sidney, ed.: 1967. Human Values and Economic Policy.

Jackson, John H., et al.: 1987. Business - Contemporary Concepts and Practices.

Josephson, Matthew: 1962. The Robber Barons - The Great American Capitalists 1861-1901.

Livingstone, John Leslie: 1992. The Portable MBA in Finance and Accounting.

Mackay, Charles, et al.: 1996r. Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

Mann, Everett J.: 1955. You can make money on the Stcok Market.

Marx,Karl: 1961. Capital - A Critique of Political Economy, Volume I.

Marx,Karl: 1961. Capital - A Critique of Political Economy, Volume II.

Marx,Karl: 1959. Capital - A Critique of Political Economy, Volume III.

McConnell,Campbell R.: 1987. Economics: Principles, Problems and Policies.

McWilliams, Peter, et al.: 1992. Wealth 101 - Getting what you want - Enjoying what youve got.

Meltzer, Milton: 1993. Gold.

Mises, Ludwig von: 1980r. The Theory of Money and Credit.

OHara, Thomas E., et al.: 1996. Starting and running a profitable investment club.

Opitz, Edmund A.: 1995. Leviathan at War.

Pfaffenberger, Roger C., et al.: 1977. Statistical Methods for Business and Economics.

Pick, Albert: 1980. Standard Catalog of World Paper Money.

Prechter, Robert R.: 1995. At the Crest of the Tidal Wave.

Quinn, Jane Bryant: 1997. Making the Most of your Money.

Reynolds, Simon, comp.: 19??. Thoughts of Chairman Buffett.

Rotella,Robert P.: 1992. The Elements of Successful Trading.

Schermerhorn, John R.: 1986. Management for Productivity.

Schiff,Irwin: 1985. The Great Income Tax Hoax.

Schiff,Irwin: 1992. The Federal Mafia - How it illegally imposes and unlawfully collects income taxes.

Schneider,Jerome: 1990. Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens.

Schott, John W., et al.: 1998. Mind over Money.

Skidelsky, Robert: 1992. John Maynard Keyes - Volume II, The Economist as Saviour 1920-1937.

Smith, Jack L., et al.: 1989. Accounting Principles.

Snow, C.P.: 1958. The Conscience of the Rich.

Stimson, Henry & McGeorge Bundy: 1948. On Active Service in Peace and War.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1986. Americas Secret Establishment - An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1986. Best enemy money can buy.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1968. Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development - 1917 to 1930.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1971. Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development - 1930 to 1945.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1973. Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development - 1945to 1965.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1995. Trilaterals over America.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1995. The Federal Reserve Conspiracy.

Sutton, Antony C.: 1977. The War on Gold.

Thurow, Lester C., et al.: 1975. The Economic Problem.

Timberlake, Richard: 1991. Gold, greenbacks, and the Constitution.

Wachtel, Howard M.: 1986. The Money Mandarins - The Making of a Supernational Economic Order.

Weatherford, Jack: 1997. The History of Money - From Sandstone to Cyberspace.

White, Andrew Dickson : 1959. Fiat Money Inflation in France.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:08 - ID#187218)
Prometheus ,,,, Churchill is a quite interesting background that deserve the time
of your research ,,,
As state yesterday - I there's any interest in a particular area - let me know - At last count I've estimate 4000+ volumes ,,,,,,,, it is also my way of learning more in areas that I have limited knowledge ,,,,, kinda self-serving and sharing resources simultaneously ,,,, however, everyone win in this scenario ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:27 - ID#342315)
Wetgold - Books
My favorite, but also to balance the tons of other reading. "TALES of UNCLE REMUS". My copy is 1889, so if you can't dig up a more current, let me lnow and I'll try or get you a copy of mine. Actually I think there were at least 3 different sections ( b00ks ) . Good luck, Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:30 - ID#27499)
Inflation/deflation/prize of gold
It has been a most interesting and important discussion on this subject. Thanks to the contributors!

When comparing the differences between 29 and 98, the status of gold in relation to currencies ( and debt ) seems to be one of the key issues.

Martin Amstrong puts it as follows:

"There is only one reason why a Great Depression would take place.

In orderto develope a major Great Depression, we must see the wholesale defaults of governments around the world. Since todays governmentdebt can be paid by simply inflating out, the final outcome of a serious economic decline presently could b exactly opposite of what took place during the 1930s. What this means is that during the 1930s, if you ran out of gold, you defaulted on your debt. In 1931, virtually all of Europe defaulted PERMANENTLY on its debt with the exception of Switzerland. Britain did enter into a moratoriun on its debt for 6 months, but eventually resumed operations and honored its debt.

...We suspect that a similar situation is indeed developing where we will experience competitive devaluations in world currencies rather than outright default in government debt. By devaluing a currency, bondholders are wiped out on a percentage basis rather than completely, as was the case during the 1930s."

Amstrong thinks, that the U.S. dollar may rise significantly against both Asia as well as Europe, and therefore, any correction in the US share market might be very well tempered over the next two years.

Martin Amstrong: The Stock Market & The Princeton Economic Confidence Model. The World Capital Market Review 2/1998


(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:33 - ID#411112)
Sometimes it is always good to,specially on weekends,let the mind wonder back through time,to what
men did in the search for GOLD,and to think today you can get an ounce for under $300.00

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:35 - ID#187218)
chas ,,, the the Uncle ,,,
these tales are quite popular and still in print ( I think ) as are many of Frank Baums tales of the 'Wonderful Wizard' ,,,, How did you go about acquiring the early copyright ? ,,,, are you a collector of good books or just ran across it ? ,,,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:39 - ID#187218)
You posted:
"... Since todays governmentdebt can be paid by simply inflating out ... "
there is a law on the books that can solve this problem, as well as, the disbandonment of the FRB ,,,,,, I don't remember the exact figure but the gubmint can buy out the Fed Reserve by some ridiculously low number ( less than the U.S. operating budget in 1 day ) ,,,, if interested I can find the number but will take some time ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:45 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re UNCLE
My grandmother was born in Richmond, 1864, a wily old Irish lady ( lace curtain ) and my copy came down thru the faminly. Original Joel Chandler Harris. I have been on the lookout for years, but have only seen one other of the series and it was in terrible condition-$50 on a hard bargain. Should have bought it, but -another passed opportunity. Still looking. I'm not a real serious collector, but my eyes are always open. Like I said, no luck, let me know, Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:46 - ID#410114)
Federal Reserve
The Fed is a government organization not private. At one time, they were a quasi gov/private org but no longer. The diffence between a private co. issuing financial instruments out of thin air ( stocks, bonds, commerical paper ) and the Fed, is that no one is required by law to accept commercial paper as good for payments, but they are required to accept Federal Reserve Notes ( in god we trust ) .

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:48 - ID#410114)
Federal Reserve
The Fed is a government organization not private. At one time, they were a quasi gov/private org but no longer. The diffence between a private co. issuing financial instruments out of thin air ( stocks, bonds, commerical paper ) and the Fed, is that no one is required by law to accept commercial paper as good for payments, but they are required to accept Federal Reserve Notes ( in god we trust ) .


Date: Sat Jun 06 1998 08:40

WetGold ( Rob@08:36 ) ID#187218:

Not sure what you are saying here - could U clarify your position ... TIA

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:52 - ID#187218)
chas ,,,, I have a close friend in Philadelphia who owns an Antiqurian bookstore ,,,,
it's been in the family for 3 generations ,,,, he may be able to help - If not, they offer multiple mailing lists ,,,,, be aware that this is a scholarly book store and mainly deals in non-fiction -- but they have resources and the ability to keep a sharp eye on what you wnat ,,,,,
William H. Allen Bookseller ---- Walnut Street, Philadelphia ..... they were exploring about web access --- check it out ,,,,,
let me know of any successes ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:56 - ID#255283)
@WetGold: Guten Morgen Herr WetGold
Ich fuehle mich heute gut ausgeschlafen und ich freue mich, dass unsere Diskussion von gestern fuer manche unserer Kitko Freunde anregend war.

I got very exdcited to read the list of books which you published because A. Sutton is next on my reading list, but I havn't gotten a hold of his books yet.

Browsing through the ongoing discussion from earlier this morning, what I liked most was "WHY TO KAY".

I wish you would have convinced me that my "Why to kay" worries are superfluous. But I still worry about the "embedded chip" problem and let me assure you, this worry is not at all against you.

If any of our friends here at this site would be able to calm me down, i would highly appreciate this.

From time to time I will continue to share my experiences and observations with this wonderful site. It's a never ending source of ideas and inspirations.


Alberich der Zwerg

(Sat Jun 06 1998 09:58 - ID#342315)
Cocktail recipe
Warning- this can be dangerous. When I was in college ( 47-51 ) we used to invite the girls over for an appetizer before going out for dinner. I'm sure a lot of you know about the FRENCH 75. Named after a particularly effective French artilery piece. 2/3 Mumm's and 1/3 Courvesier. Served in a 3 oz seductive glass. We never got to dinner. After 3 of these, there was hardly any lady able to get up and hit their butt with both hands. I know this wasn't fair, but at that time I was greatly lacking in perspective.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:01 - ID#187218)
Rob@09:48 ,,,,
You posted: ,,, "... The Fed is a government organization not private... "

RESPONSE: If your premise is correct you'd be able to go to the Blue Pages of your local telephone directory under "Government Agencies" and select 'Federal Reserve'. You can't. Why ? ,,, The Federal Reserve is NOT a government agency - only permitted and sactioned by the government to stay in business. Do it and let me know your results.
"... no one is required by law to accept commercial paper as good for payments ... but they are required to accept Federal Reserve Notes... "

RESPONSE: Acceptance of commercial paper is FORBIDDEN by law. You cannot issue your own currency amongst your own family and afford legal protection even though all parties are willing to do so. It is an illegal activity and if prosecuted; a Federal offense. The law states that you must accept FRNs for trade and commerce for ALL activities.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:02 - ID#429121)
Retired Soldier, Oris
RT - Hat's off to you. My respect for you just went up 3dB. Didn't totally miss the point, however. Things must be different with the Army and Marines. 80% of ex-Air Force ( my former service ) folks I know are the greediest bunch of cry-babies I have ever seen. I know of one former AF Colonel ( lawyer ) who has enlisted a cadre of former AF officers and filed a class action lawsuit against the U.S. Govt. They claim the U.S is violating their "contract" for the lifetime medical treatment and other perks. ( I personally know several of these former officers - and they all have good paying jobs ( excluding the retirement pay ) . These guys wouldn't give a nickel to a blind man in the streets. ) The retired AF Colonel/lawyer is well off, also. Perhaps they're Ex-patriots? I am reminded of the photos of Douglas MacAuthur's troops pointing machine guns at WWI vets for demanding payments for their service. Bring back Gen MacAuthur!

ORIS - I would NOT recommend you use MONEX to solve your problem unless it is the absolute LAST POSSIBLE RESORT!!!! ( i.e., if you are about to lose your holdings anyway ) . E-mail me -

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:02 - ID#228128)
Good Book
I enjoy reading books by Studs Terkel. One of my favorites "Hard Times" is a compendium of interviews with people from all walks of life who experienced the great depression. Terkel asks a few questions and lets people tell their stories in their own words. Very interesting.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:05 - ID#342315)
Wetgold - Allen, dealer
Thanx a bunch for this, will check. Of course, I consider this non-fiction, but I'm prejudiced. I bet he's a good source. Have a few more various editions waiting. Good luck for you from now on, Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:07 - ID#187218)
ALBERICH__A: ,,,, Guten Morgen mein Freund ,,,,
Es tut mir leid ,,, I glaubt das Sie Americanishe sein ,,, this was my assumption and I don't know if this is true ,,,
Sutton: Some of his works are quite difficult to find ,,, however, a good read ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:10 - ID#187218)
chas ,,, Wayne runs the show here --- but they are all proficient ,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:12 - ID#187218)
IDT ,,, very much enjoy Studs ,,, and of course his classic opus ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:16 - ID#288369)
@The best money you shouldn't spend....and don't buy a new shovel.
To "bring home" the divinely absolute proof of the stubbornly existant stupidity of gold miners ( and we oil producers ) allow me to present this simple presentation....SHUT THE MINES DOWN AND DON'T HEDGE ANY FUTURE GOLD SALES. There is an apparent and inherent conflict between the physical owner and the physical producer, in that, the more gold or oil produced, the less the physical is valued. This conflict is preyed upon by the banks.

The promoters and endorsers of paper currency, ( virtually every one you know ) , are to the greatest degree the BANKS. They need gold devalued and destabilised to a degree that gold fails to appear as "stable" as the bank's controlled green substitute. The most effective way to cheapen gold is to cause an economic condition that causes the creation of more gold, physically and apparently to the market.

The common method that allows the banks to create more physical gold is to loan the mines some paper money. The mines then invest the money in enhancing their production facilities and discovering more gold. This procedure makes the miners feel good because they are more "productive and efficient", they spend more time and money doing what they do best...make gold. At the same time, the management of the mines award themselves more salary because they are now doing their jobs better because they....they tell the miners to dig harder with those new shovels. The mine management likes the BANKS....why, they're partners...uh huh.

Now the price of gold goes down with the delivery of the additional product, and the banks collect the proceeds of the sale, applying it to the debt service. The bank closely monitors the miner's financial performance. The price continues to soften, the banker "advises" the producer to hedge, thereby benefiting the bank's debt security. The bank now controls gold production and thus, it's price.

The control of gold's price is rendered more complete by the warehousing of inventory executed by the banks. When the price starts to rise, due to supply imbalance or paper currency instability, they talk a lot about dumping inventory and sell a little to demonstrate their disdain for gold.

Thus, the bank's control of gold is acquired. And acquired at little cost, since the mines, collectively, have borrowed not more than a few billion to keep their jobs and stay in business. A small and wise investment for the banks, wouldn't you say?

Obviouly, the men of banks are superior to the men of mines....and the men of oil.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:20 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re 1st search
I gotcha. No matches first goround. I'll call. Again thanx for site. Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:23 - ID#187218)
off to imitate the antics of Luke Keye & David Carradine ,,,, bbl ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:23 - ID#411112)
Studio R....allow me to mix a bloody mary in a toast to your post


(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:26 - ID#342315)
Studio R re Banks etc
That was an excellent post. W/o going into detail, I think you ought to know that all gold miners are not Munks. Most of those I know do it for the satisfaction of verifying their prognostications. Naturally money for the product helps, but you have to verify before cashing in. Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:31 - ID#57232)
Thanks for helping out Ole'
RJ: You are a gentleman. You might want to think about something. You represent a large organization that Wilmington or the other bullion storage houses must deal with in the future. Ole' is just a single customer. Don't you find it odd that the silver can be moved for you, but not for Ole'? And, I'm sure Ole' is not the only one that got taken for a ride. How can the silver stocks be officially 'not there' for him but available for you? Just what someone would do if they thought silver would go up soon -- hoard it for themselves or their friends. Perhaps the big silver players have more clout than you might expect -- enough for the silver 'paper' to be forcefully dumped on the unsuspecting public -- but not on the big guys that you represent.

This still smells like some insider dealing to me. This makes me even more sure that silver is about to head up. I'll bet the big guys are getting positioned in the background.

Aurator -- you are a good sleuth type. What do you think? A little gold or silver in hand sure looks better than in someone else's warehouse. No matter what they tell you -- bonded, etc., you still don't know for sure that it is still there if it is not in your own hot little hands. Just like Fort Knox. I still think Goldfinger got it already.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:35 - ID#413109)
An Alberich der Zwerg, ---nicht nur anregend aber aufregend. Ich hoerte das Sie eine eigene "site" haben, wuerden
sie so gut sein und mil via Email die Informazion bitte schicken. Mit Deutsch komme ich leider nicht zurueck, da es mir
schriflich sehr schwer kommt.

@Wetgold, yes I saw the beautiful Schloss picture and copied it for my wife and others. All other personal questions
I would prefer to answer by mail. Thanks for your understanding.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:40 - ID#284255)
Thanks to all for the good wishes.
Heart's Content

Whereto, and when,
And please god, with whom?
My old heart questions.

What Elysium awaits me
Sweet with deep fields of asphodel?

Or happy hunting ground
Where laden with spoil
We return, singing, to the Lodge
And smiling serving girls.

I am too meek for Asgard
Or Valhalla
------------Those Neanderthals!

Olympus will be too high for me
And fraught with danger
From those quick tempered and so jealous gods.

Heaven and Hell have
Bitterly contended in me
All my days.

The Islands of the Blest ? They draw me.
Siren song; the deep sleep of Circe.
Such dreams have lulled me
Throughout all my ways.

Gentlest, sweetest and noblest of all
The aspiration of my restless soul
The dream, the hope of Avalon's calm isle.

The strong fellowship of goodly men
The loves of splendid women.
Companions all
Savouring the good life.
There, in the ivory tower
Of this eternal mind
Pursue the ageless quest
On lovely and so tranquil shore
Of fabled Avalon.

Oh, Avalon, calm Avalon,
My friends, my souls companions.

Perchance we may not fall
Here with Merlin,
Or even at Morgen's hands
Attain the Grail.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:48 - ID#57232)
New OTC Derivatives rules -- won't get done, or won't work.
Donald: I have seen too many situations where the street light is put up only after the fatal accident. There will be no agreement on what to do about the derivatives problem until after another fiasco. Orange Country didn't do it, South Korea/Indonesia won't be enough to do it. Not enough discomfort yet.

And, after that there is the matter of international OTC derivatives trading -- who is going to enforce the rules? The US? The UN? I don't think the international law structure is even capable of setting anything up that could effectively proctect a bank or other derivatives trader from derivatives credit risk. Now -- come to think of it -- they could copy maritime law -- rights of salvage? How does one salvage something when there are no physical assets to salvage? Could be like going to pull that shipwreck off a reef, and finding a wet pile of papers instead.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 10:58 - ID#288369)
Happy Belated Birthday.....Avalon! I've been out 'n about...and sorry I missed the special day....yes, welcome to the forties scale.....and it's quite a climb, it is.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:02 - ID#288369)
Thanks for the kind comments and a hearty, long, islandly GULP back to ya!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:13 - ID#57232)
The Mists of Avalon
sharefin: Appreciate the post. I know you will deny this, but you write naturally in a poetic fashion. I fully expect one day to learn that you are just as creative as your dad.

I too dream about the Mists of Avalon. The lesson I think is the world can be whatever we want it to be. Our world problems are all surmountable if we are wise enough to come up with the answers. The AntiChrist etal cannot function if we do not wish him/her to.

I read an interesting book titled: 'Conversations with God', by Neale Donald Walsch. He believes that he is actually conversing with God -- but that is not what is interesting. What is interesting is his comment that there can be no 'evil' in this world unless we allow it. No 'evil' leader can do anything evil if he/she is not allowed to do so by the people that work for him/her. That is the bottom line, I think. The world is ours to make into whatever we all make it into. Hitler or Stalin could not function without naive, blindly obedient followers.

Our awakening to this realization will not come quickly, I fear. But -- we must believe it will eventually come. We just have to search within ourselves and do and think the right things. Our Avalon will come when we are ready for it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:17 - ID#342315)
Studio R re yours
I'm glad you took it like I meant it. Several giulps already, and several to you. Just remember- a push in the bush is worth two in the hand. Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:21 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re email
How about sending me an email. I have an answer for your question awhile back.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:26 - ID#288369)
@Mtn. Bear-man............
Great post @ 8:26!!!! Thank you. Since I have been "demoted" to acting treasurer, usurped and ad hoc, I do proclaim your dues paid in full. But we expect, further payment of "dues" in the future..uh huh, tee hee. ;^ ) ~

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:26 - ID#254269)
JTF ; Avalon is already ...................

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:27 - ID#254269)
Happy B.Day to you ! Happy B.Day to you !
( sung to the tune of deep in the heart o' Texas ) .
Sorry I'm a day late.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:31 - ID#220325)
Wetgold and Charle re- Antiquarian books
ABE or Advanced Book Exchange on the internet has over 2400 antique bookstores listed on their site. The search is free to anyone and if you choose to purchase a book you do so with the store of your choosing.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:31 - ID#288369)
@Avalon (the man, not the mist).............
Howdy! and the eyes of Tejas to YA! ( gulp 'n puff ) At the office?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:34 - ID#57232)
Latest on the German 'Bullet' train crash

All: A wheel is a cheap part of a train, but it does need to be scanned periodically for flaws. Just like our economic system, an apparently inexpensive problem -- if not spotted in time -- can bring everything down. And, the problem that brings everything down is often not what everyone is expecting. All it takes is for one person to become complacent, forget to do their job -- and the preventive maintenance is not done.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:36 - ID#254269)
Studio; Yeah, I come in here to get some rest; only for an hour or
so. Gorgeous day in Big D. Mexican haze finally gone ( think we sent it to
OKC !Big silly grin. )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:41 - ID#288369)
@Avalon..............purty day here too!.........
That smokey thingy tweren't the amexicans...'twas 'ol studio! yes siree! ;^ ) ~ cheech and studio.chong

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:44 - ID#57232)
I think you are right!
Avalon: If it is anywhere, it is here -- on Kitco. Amplify this 'awakening' a million fold on similar web sites, and we may have something.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:50 - ID#57232)
German Trains
All: I know some of you speak fluent German so you know this -- the Germans take their trains very seriously. A few minutes late is inexcusable -- like the Swiss and their trains -- faultless spotless, and on time, like a fine Swiss watch. So -- this event is highly significant.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:53 - ID#410215)
..... PM Review .....

I write these reviews weekly. Much of this info is already known by intense watchers of these markets, but it does boil the week down to a single page. I tend to be more balanced in this review than I do on these pages.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:55 - ID#410215)
..... Wilmington Silver .....

Gunrunner -

If one has a leverage account at Wilmington, or a fully paid storage account, he must either sell it, take delivery, or transfer it. I am not aware of anyone else in the country who will accept a leverage transfer from Wilmington. More than that, there is no cost for the transfer. For people who have to make this decision by June 19, your advice to stay away from Monex, the one company who can solve this problem with a fax, would seem to close the only door left open to him.

Why would you try to prevent this? Its good to see you posting again, but your latest "advice" is perhaps not in the best interest of some.

For the rest:

Republic Bank bought Wilmington. It is as simple as that. It happens all the time; one company buys another and consolidations occur. This is the case with Wilmington. I had no idea they were playing such hardball with their clients. I remember when they first got into leverage accounts. I spoke with the Vice President at a mining conference in San Francisco a couple years ago and I asked him why they wanted the headache of leverage accounts. He seemed to think it was a stretch for them and wondered aloud about the wisdom of getting into the leverage business. Seems time told.

Lots of companies have tried to do this biz. After 30 years, they have all come and gone, but we are still here. Survival of the fittest, yes?


silver plate
(Sat Jun 06 1998 11:55 - ID#290395)
JTF - philosphy
First you ( we ) must decide what is good or bad or evil. What do we use for a standard? and don't quote the bible it doesnt' cut it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:00 - ID#57232)
RJ: Your words are always appreciated on this site. Your words are more to be trusted than those of certain others, because markets do not always go up. It is our own individual responsibility to decide what to do with the information, as each of us have our own method of investing.

Thanks again for helping Ole'.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:00 - ID#43460)
RJ re twenty's style writing, goldbuggery etc.
You know you inadvertantly made a profound observation last night with your crack about 'twenties style' writing. I don't know how long you've been on the internet, but back in the days when a fellow had to assemble his own communications program for his 300 baud modem there was much less internet conversational writing and what did come up resembled Hemingway's style. "Spent the night iterating sets. The sun came up red. There was dust on the pizza. Ect." I think that was the negative result of 30 years worth of television watching and thirty years before that of listening to radio and it was the low ebb of popular literacy. IMHO

In the years between the first printing press and electronic media writing advanced to a high art form as people had to pour all their long distance communication skill into the written word. They couldn't just watch t.v. and they didn't have schools which mainstreamed mental retardates and dumbed down the prose so the 'tards could pass the courses. But now, even with all the negatives the voice of the people is coming forth again in the written word here and on the newsgroups. And now that so many of us in our second childhoods have reverted to writing once more we are wiping the dust off our literary skills and tastes. IMHO

So you are right to practice your 1920's style. People are starting to appreciate writing more complex than t.v. adwriting mammer jammer. ( I, on the other hand, have made an effort though to trim down my Faulknerian sentances to no more than a paragraph or two; people still aren't ready to really read and savor the written word like a slowly sipped glass of Jack Daniels and spring water, not too hot but not spoiled with excessive ice nor do they have the patience to read sentances which have no particular action nor meaning except to describe. ) IMHO

It interests me that you, a PM retailer, would chose such a hobby as hanging around with Kitcoites. One would think that after a long day at the office buying and selling it a mere PM salesman would want to sit around the shack and play cards, go fishing, chase women, drive fast, hoe the lime trees ( or in such a genteel part of the world does one spade lime trees? ) or whatever else in his world isn't related to PMs. So I suspect that despite all the protestations ( how's that for a 1920's word? ) you, just as do so many of the rest of us, really have more than a little goldbuggery in your black, vodka soaked heart. IMHO ( %-^} )

silver plate
(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:10 - ID#290395)
Studio.R - mines
There should be a formula that equates CEO's, officers and directors salaries, options and perks with stockholders dividends. Otherwise management runs roughshod over stockholders. Management keeps uping their take, and often shows negative returns on the balance sheet. Management is doing fine but the shareholders get zip.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:16 - ID#342315)
snowbird re book search
This is soooome kind of source. I got 300+ on Uncle Remus, but had to email for another. I would say, if they don't have it, they could get it if it exists. Many thanx. Their # 2 is mine.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:18 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re books
Check snowbirds ref ABE search. It's goood. Charlie

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:20 - ID#57232)
Good and bad
silverplate: I consider the Bible as written by humans, so it also has parts that are of value, and parts that are not. The underlying concept of what is good or bad is not something that can readily be posted on the net, or expressed by one human to another. I certainly -- as an imperfect being myself -- cannot be trusted entirely to know all of what is good and bad, or be able to express it to another.

All I can think of is the following:

First -- the golden rule -- do no harm to others, treat them as you would treat your own family. Even those of a different culture.

Secondly -- there is no one written source that give all the answers -- a bible version King James vs Koran vs the Buddist or Hindu equivalent. Each one of these sources undoubtedly has pearls of wisdom, as well as words that probably should not be believed -- because of the human hand that wrote the words.

Thirdly -- The essence of good and evil must be understood by comparative religion -- the study of all religions. It is only in that way that the weaknesses of the human interpretation of what good and evil are can be minimized. What is common to all of the major religions is very likely to be very important. And -- probably some minor ones too.

I like to imagine something else that helps a bit to give me perspective. Are humans the only intelligent life forms in the Universe? Do we have a unique perspective on God, truth, right and wrong? Perhaps not. Perhaps we will not be truly ready to evolve intellectually and culturally until we can converse constructively with non human life forms.

Intelligent life is the most precious thing in the Universe, and it must be preserved, whatever and wherever it is. And it must be encouraged to evolve.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:36 - ID#412286)
ONE WORLD, READY OR NOT The Manic Logic of Global Capitalism 1997 by William Greider.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:41 - ID#269409)
Nazi Gold
Saturday June 6, 10:55 am Eastern Time

Dresdner Bank denies knew origin of Nazi gold

By Fiona Fleck

BONN, June 6 ( Reuters ) - Dresdner Bank AG, one of two German banks facing an $18 billion lawsuit brought by Holocaust
survivors, said on Saturday that recent research showed it did not know the origin of gold it handled during the Nazi era.

Dresdner's management board spokesman Bernhard Walter told Der Spiegel news magazine that preliminary findings of research
into the bank's role during Germany's Third Reich suggested there were no grounds for the lawsuit filed in New York on

``We will examine the details intensively. Our first impressions are that the claims are not justified,'' he said. ``I don't want to
predict the ( final ) results of the research. We must await the results.''

Walter's comments followed a similar denial by Deutsche Bank AG, also facing the suit filed in Manhattan's federal court.
Deutsche also said recent research showed Deutsche had no idea where gold it handled during the Nazi era had come from.

The suit accuses the banks of collaborating with the Nazis by accepting and selling personal property looted from Nazi
concentration camp victims at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Buchenwald, including gold teeth melted into gold bars, jewelry and coins.

Both banks have said they are trying to shed light on their activities during the Third Reich and have both already asked
independent researchers to examine their archives.

Walter said research so far showed that Dresdner had returned all property confirmed as belonging to Holocaust victims to their
heirs at the end of World War Two.

He said the bank would study the lawsuit's claims carefully.

News of the lawsuit hit the banks' shares on Thursday, pushing Deutsche down 2.35 marks to 153.50 and Dresdner down 1.8
marks to 101 marks.

Both recovered slightly during trading on Friday on the Frankfurt bourse. Deutsche closed at 154.45 marks and Dresdner at

Lost files from the Reichsbank, Nazi Germany's central bank, which were found last year, showed that Deutsche Bank had
received 650 kg ( 1,430 lb ) of plundered Nazi gold and Dresdner Bank some 313 kg ( 689 lb ) .

An historian on an independent panel researching Deutsche's past said last month the bank had acquired a total of five tonnes of
Reichsbank gold. Of this, 600 kg was Melmer gold, or victims' gold, named after Bruno Melmer, the Nazi SS officer in charge of
the Nazis' plundered gold.

Researchers say the banks must have known some of the gold was plundered from banks in Nazi-occupied countries, particularly
in France, Belgium and the Netherlands, but that it is possible they did not know some was taken from Holocaust victims.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:41 - ID#410215)
..... Writing Then and Now .....

Gagnrad -

I have asked myself the same question time and again: Why do I spend time here? At the core, I guess, is the truth that there is a goldbug buried under all my bearishness which can hardly wait to surface when gold finally does turn around. But I think your insight into the written word is the primary reason I keep coming back.

I, like most Americans of this age, strayed further and further from writing, only doing what was necessary for business. It was always easier to call a friend rather than write. When I burst on this forum ( one year ago to this very day. Happy anniversary to me ) , I had been reading it for quite awhile. I intended just one post, which turned out to be the grossest sort of underestimation.

I have discovered that this site has stretched some literary muscles that had laid dormant so long I feared atrophy. Things seem to have limbered up quite a bit since then, yes? The writing here has led to some other projects, including an ambitious stab at a novel, so I am thankful for that. The world is a better place with this whole web thingie. As you pointed out, a new generation of kids is moving back toward the written word. Or is it all just point and click?

Someone recently told me my writing reminded him some of Ross Mac Donnald, ( or was it Raymond Chandler? In any case, It was a great compliment. It is interesting that the comparison was to authors who not only come from another era, but both described and spoke in the voice of a more indeterminate time. Perhaps that is why their words are still fresh today. My own personal Literary Hero is the original Doctor of Journalism, Hunter S. Thompson, who has the clearest vision of any writer I have ever read.

All writers steal from each other. While it is considered in very poor taste - and also illegal - to copy anothers work; to emulate is the road to literary evolution. I have been searching for a voice in my words for some time, and I think I am on to it; if the rotten bugger would just slow down a bit and let me catch up. I think we could wrestle this world of words for fun and profit. But the Muse is a fickle lover and frustration is as often the result as success.

I will be on the high seas for the next week, with nary a computer in sight. Oh sure, I could grab the laptop of one of my colleagues and quickly punch in Kitco to keep abreast. But since the top deck of this ship is designated topless ( now that is a convoluted phrase ) , I will have no need to look further to keep abreast of things.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:42 - ID#187218)
reify@10:35 ,,, UND ,,,, ALBERICH__A ,,,,
yesterday was a rather busy time - getting only 2 hours sleep - I think I may have confused Herr ALBERICH__A with robnoel ,,,,,, the web site I was thinking of is: ,,, ,,,
apologies to all ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:43 - ID#43460)
interesting news item

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:43 - ID#269409)
@ RJ...writing on Kitco
It's intellectual working out, kinda like going to the health club, ( and maybe a bit more fun... )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:44 - ID#269409)
@ RJ...Kitco & Health clubs
The only bad part being of course that there's no BABE's in skimpy outfits to ogle at Kitco!

( Off and away back to overtime rocket science... )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:44 - ID#255283)
@JTF: Thanks for the article about the German train crash
I telephned with my brother this morning - he lives in Germany near Karlsruhe - and the information he gave me confirms the content of this article. The death toll has increased to 102 in the meantime and the latest news reported that this is probably not the end.

It was this morning when the heavy cranes lifted the beton blocks of the bridge which had fallen on top of the train cars in this crash.

He also told me that now the project with the new magnetc sliding technology is in jeopardy because of psychological reasons. He had participated in a test drive. This train would run over 250 miles/hour which is about double the speed of the train which crashed so violently a few days ago.

I prefer to go slow and take it easy from now on.

What a tragedy for all these poor people and their families!

Alberich der Zwerg

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:44 - ID#187218)
chas@12:18 ,,,, the URL I had given you for Allen Bookseller is prefaced by the ABE ,,,
check it out ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:49 - ID#43460)
RJ, have fun
Hmmm, a topless party boat might be a good place to study gold jewelry trends with no distracting clothes to hide the gold. IMHO

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:49 - ID#57232)
Reno orders CIA Director not to testify about ...
ChinaMissleSatGate. Her reason -- it might compromise criminal investigations. This is an interesting read -- hard to tell what is really happening.



Just change hxtp to http, and splice together.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 12:57 - ID#411112)
JTF,Civilized society a we know it,had it bases in in a very simple formula,God understood this that
is why,he gave us TEN things to try and do in order to live peacefully in civilised society,it is these TEN things that all laws are based......if we do not understand repect and pass on to next generations,these truths we hold to be self evident,you end up with a nation in moral decline and generation lost and wondering,some may shy away fom this philosophy,if it is wrong, no one I know of has come up with a better idea that I'am aware of

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:00 - ID#187218)
RJ @ 12:41 ,,,
I take exception to your comment: "... All writers steal from each other ... " ,,,,
I steal from no one NOR do I invent the structure by which the words blend; ,,,,,,,,,,, the art of writing is based on understanding the multitude of linguistic elements ,,,,,,,,, manipulating such parameters will determine how well you are able to cross-correlate them in such a way as to stimulate further understanding by the reader ,,,,,,,, the person who masters this style ( hopefully uniquely called 'your own' ) will champion his/her ideas across a diversifide readership ... good luck ,,, cf: Chomsky ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:00 - ID#57232)
10 Things - agreed
robnoel: As far as I am concerned that comes very close. Comparative religion studies may add something to this.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:05 - ID#347267)

Have hesitated to post on this, but seems to be plenty of interest.

Count me as one who has been and continues to PREPARE. My preps completed so far: Built log home in remote area on property owned for 19 years; wonderful neighbors ( nearest 300 yards ) who all care for each other. Propane for cooking and heat; 500 gal propane tank; planning to add propane powered generator in near future. Woodstove in basement which can cook on if necessary. Started storage of canned goods. Started slow asymetrical withdrawal of cash ( small bills ) from various accounts; storage where I can get to it. Have my dogs and protection ( spelled guns AND AMMO -- note AMMO will be good as GOLD for trading!!! ) Plan to get seeds for garden next year.

Note: My bride of 40+ years and I were already planning the retreat, so much of this we would have done anyway, but have simply accelerated. For instance, the generator is needed, as we are the last on the line serviced in a rather remote area, so any widespread damage from storm will cause outages, and we are the LAST to receive repairs.

As mentioned in previous post, NOONE in my family except The One With Experience ( spry and mentally agile 82 years old ) is at all interested. Could it be because he lived through the '29 era???

More: For any who want to spend the time with a group that is mostly serious about Y2k, check out:

This is one of the forums on Jim Davidson's Strategic Investment site.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:05 - ID#215208)
Not an inspiring week, but for me at least, the picture has cleared up a little.

Gold - Contructed a different channel that seems a better fit. This is a slightly downward trending channel. I like it because the POG touches this channel bottom at the same times that silver touches the bottom of its channel. Also, the slight down-trend fits with the overall "feel" of the current gold market. Comparing the recent action ( or lack thereof ) of gold relative to silver, I am disappointed in gold's failure to rally along with silver, as silver has pulled back up significantly off its channel bottom. Thus I expect that either silver will weaken near term, or gold will rally back up to the 300 level, breaking thru the top of the pennant pattern that has been forming. In any case, I am fairly comfortable that gold is not going to break down dramatically in the near term, through the bottom of this new channel. The bad news is that this channel predicts we are not going to see any new highs in gold in the near term.

Silver - It seems that the recent low in silver has defined the new channel bottom. I have left the old channel in dotted lines, to remind myself that this worst case scenario might still happen. Since the POG touches the new gold channel bottom at the same time as silver touches this channel bottom, it lends additional credibility to this new silver channel.

Platinum - A very minor adjustment was made to the channel to accomodate the actual lows. I was very pleased that I was able to predict this low very closely simply by using a channel width equal to the historical channel width. When used in combination with other things, these channels can be a useful tool. However, PL seems really lifeless, and it seems quite comfortable in this steeply downward trending channel. Still not responding to the rallies in PA.

Palladium - As expected, palladium pulled back to the long-standing up-trend line. Since it dropped so fast, it overshot a little, and is oscillating a bit at the moment. There might be the least hint that palladium may now be trending down, but I certainly wouldn't count on this yet.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:08 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re W H Allen
You are absolutely right. But I still could not get an answer. As I said, I'll call. This can solve a lot of problems. Thanx, Charlie

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:09 - ID#347267)
Y2k Addendum
Forgot to mention one of the most IMPORTANT requirements of any preps:
WATER!!! We have 4 springs of wonderful mountain water if necessary to carry, but depend on well which is why NEED generator.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:10 - ID#187218)
RJ ,,, as a minimum ,,, you must have these in your library ,,,,,
Wittgenstein is only for the devoted reader/writer ,,,,, AND - of course - the writer shall always have 'Fowlers Modern English Dictionary' and other standards ,,,,,,,,,,,,
Anscombe,G., tr.. 1961. Wittgenstein Notebooks 1914-1916. Harper & Brothers, Publishers.

Black,Max: 1975. Caveats and Critiques, Essays in Language, Logic, and Art. Cornell university Press.

Black,Max: 1970. Margins of Precision, Essays in Logic and Language. Cornell university Press.

Chomsky,Noam: 1970. Current Issues in Linguistic Theory. Mouton & Co. N.V., Publishers.

Chomsky,Noam: 1970. 1971. Syntactic Structure. Mouton & Co. N.V., Publishers.

Dozier,Rush W.: 1992. Codes of Eolution. Crown Publishers, Inc.

Futuyma, Douglas J.: 1982. Science on Trial - The Case for Evolution. Pantheon Books.

Hughes,John: 1962. The Science of Language - An Introduction to Linguistics. Random House, Inc.

McCrone,John: 1991. The ape that spoke; Language and the evolution of the human mind. William Morrow and Company, Inc.

Wittgenstein,Ludwig: 1960. Preliminary Studies for the "Philosophical Investigations" generally known as The Blue and Brown Books. 2nd ed., Basil Blackwell, Oxford.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:11 - ID#187218)
chas ,,,, you are misunderstanding me ,,,,,,
look at the URL I had supplied ,,,,, Allen Bookseller is one branch of the tree of ABE ,,,, check it out ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:20 - ID#411112)
JTF there really 20 suggestions,Mel Brooks droped ten of them


Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:39 - ID#347267)
A note of thanks for your poetic postings.

I for one appreciate the effort that I know it takes, even though I know that "IT FLOWS" FROM ONE WITH YOUR TALENT!! Your "Heart's Content" of this morning really struck a chord, as I sit looking out at the mists which have temporarily hidden the mountain ridges surrounding my "Avalon".

Thanks Again. Best Regards; Mtn Bear

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:43 - ID#342315)
Wetgold re ABE etc
I gotcha. However, when I use WHA search, nothing turned up. On ABE I got some. I can't explain the vagaries of this machine, but they are there. There is on book I have been trying since 1990- "The Origin of Metallic Currency and Weight Standards" by William Ridgeway. I first found it by interlibrary loan . Original was Oxford Press 1895. Next Singing Tree Press, 1970 ( Detroit, I think ) . So far, no luck. Neither of the searches today turned up anything. This is by far the best research on the origin of money I have ever read. Ridgeway's intense research will be hard to beat. If you ever have the luck to get a copy, I recommend this.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:45 - ID#410215)
..... Gagnrad .....

The Global Representative for the Austrian Mint will be with our party, so I hope to get some feeling for the current European gold market from the preeminent seller of gold in Europe. No, she will not be topless.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:48 - ID#317193)
Have a safe, restful and enjoyable trip. Sometimes you show enough "heart" in your posts that part of your soul shows through. Nice, very nice.

Good of you to assist Ole'.I know it is your business but none the less a helping hand.

The written word...tis a task to convey ones thoughts and hold the readers interest and respect. Yes?


(Sat Jun 06 1998 13:49 - ID#255283)
@silver plate (JTF - philosphy )
Good and Evil
What had fascinated me for a long time in my life was the introduction of Mephisto in Goethe's drama FAUST.

In this scene Faust is in deep dispair and agonizes to kill himself, but recognizes, after all his pain and invain search for understanding the world and himself, that he known too little yet to turn to such an irreversible step.

In the middle of this agony, Mephisto enters the scene. And that's was it, what stayed with me for a long time.

In his self introduction, Mephisto says, after Faust asks him: "Who are you?"

Mephisto: I am a part of the force that always wants the evil, and always creates the good.

Faust: What do you mean with this riddle?

Mephisto: I am the spirit who always negates. And right so: because everything what evolves is worth to go to hell ( ...worth to vanish ) .
That's why it would be better nothing at all would ever form. ( ..come to existence ) . So, everything what you call sin, destruction, short the evil, this is my true element.

Faust: You call yourself a part and you stand there as a whole?

Mephisto: I'm speaking you modest truth.
When the humans, this little world of fools,
usually think of themselves as being a whole ( ...a complete being ) :
I am a part of the part, which formerly was the whole ( ..was everything ) ,
part of the darkness which has born the light out of itself,
the proud light, which now battles mother night
to push her from the old range, the space.
But it doesn't succeed. Because as much as it aspires,
it's glued to the bodies ( ...the stars, the bodies of the universe )
It beams from the bodies, it gives beauty to the bodies,
a body is an obstacle on its traveling,
and with the bodies it will sink."

So far Goethe.
The proud light, the symbol of the good, will sink with the bodies into darkness at the end of time!
What always struck me most is this sentence which Mephisto says about himself:

"A part of the force that always wants the evil and always creates the good."

I hope in my poor translation not everything is lost of the original power and beauty of these thoughts.

Alberich der Zwerg

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:22 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John, I'm glad you've seen this documentary film
on Russian jet fighters. Those jets are exceptional, but a lot
depends upon pilots.
One American combat pilot said somethinglike that:
"Going head to head with Soviets would be our worth nightmare."

Thank God, it will probably not going to happen...

When some people say that Russian weapons are junk, because
they defeated them in Gulf War, they keep forgetting they
were fighting Iragies...You know, you do need some kind of
soldiers to use those weapons...alond with some kind of
commanders to give orders to these soldiers.

Contrary to the American opinion that the U.S. defeated
the 4th largest army in the world,which sounds very impressive,
most of the Russian military people rank Iraqi army extremely
low. Like one Russian general said on TV after Gulf War:
"Monkeys would do better in our tanks...".

On the gold front: vodka and pickle test just showed
that POG will break through $300 next week, and
75% probability exists that it will also penetrate $310,
but not $320...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:23 - ID#207145)
We are being SET UP,
For a run to 10,000. Then, the place to be will be the Japaneese stock market, as money will leave over valued markets in search of bargains. Snndy Weil knows a thing or two..

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:27 - ID#317193)
Brother oris
Thank God for the pickle and vodka test. Any chance for $318?: )


(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:27 - ID#252150)
STUDIO.R@Your 10.16 although very discouraging, was well thought out
It has become clearer to me over the past several months that the CBs are holding all the cards. I think they are acting in collusion with at least 1 of the big producers ( ABX ) & I don't see any reason why they can't keep this shell game going well into the future.

For John Disney--I think my beatific sweet old lady is far more reliable than your Jesus Saves freak. I had a little chat with her this morning & she scoffed at the idea of the Big Guy needing to bother with such mundane things as financial instruments. She did allow though that some of the better connected financiers up there, Jay Gould, Rockefeler & Astor to mention 3, have actually bought S&P & AU puts, through their intermediaries. Even more alarming though was the news that some of the great philosophers & humanitarians, such as Neitsche & Schweitzer have bought puts against the entire human race.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:27 - ID#238422)
John Disney, Junior, and all fun loving and vodka drinking
brothers of Kitco - Happy Drinking Weekend for you!

Lets get week could be interesting.

Na zdorovie!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:27 - ID#207145)
Ruskie fighters are poor imitations, ripoffs, if you will, of US fighters. I am no expert, however, the have to copy, as they have no designs of their own.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:38 - ID#238422)
It is possible, but not probable. Pickles were
not crunchy enough, but still tasted like $314...$316
may be high for the week. I can not believe it, but
it's how pickles tasted to me...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:47 - ID#43460)
oris, try this experiment (the rest of you, don't try this at home. Leave to the experts only!!)
Get two sterling silver cups and in one put 3 ounces of Jack Daniels black label and in the other 3 ounces of your favorite vodka, each being room temperature. ( If you want you may do this on 2 consecutive days. ) Go outside and find a shade tree with ambient air temperature between 85 and 100 degrees Farenheit and relative humidity between 85% and 100% and sit underneath it. A chair is optional but a hammock shows that you should really be drinking tequila instead. Sip gently from each cup, taking about an hour for the 3 ounces. A side glass of spring water and some melon slices are also optional. during and at the end of the experiment which leaves a better taste in the mouth?

IMHO vodka is a cold weather drink and less suitable for hot weather tippling than the oak barrel aged bourbons and whiskies, but to each his own.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:49 - ID#230376) said it.... You are no expert. Oris...How long does it take

to get readings from vodka and pickles ? took me many years to interpret chicken bones and as of today they seem to confirm your astute analysis !

(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:54 - ID#43460)
Wetgold RJ is right
Faulkner would never have invited you out coon hunting if you had to bring that fancy library! ( 8-^} )

John Disney__A
(Sat Jun 06 1998 14:58 - ID#24135)
Russian planes/fliers
for Oris
A fellow who calls himself "Blooper"
said this ..

"Ruskie fighters are poor imitations, ripoffs, if you
will, of US fighters. I am no expert, however, the
have to copy, as they have no designs of their own."

I think the blooper guy is mistaken,
brother Oris . I got impression that Russian
pilots were very good. Also that russian
planes were more designed for actual air combat
in war conditions than US planes.
For example jet intakes on Russian planes
have screens to keep out debris from runway
on takeoff, whereas US runway have to be
kept spotless to keep from fouling jet
intakes. Russian planes seem more like flying
tanks. Also documentary said Russian have
best pilot ejection system..
I think blooper is the guy that spells
naive .. nieve ( which I think is spanish for
snow ) .. I dont want to offend him, but Ill
take him more seriously when he spells a
little better.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:00 - ID#57232)
That Klutz!
robnoel: did he ever say what the other 10 were?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:04 - ID#187218)
Fancy libraries are always a necessity for the home - particularly if the books are read, BUT it can be compressed in one's head while hunting coon ,,,,,, the rustling attracts the prey ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:07 - ID#230376)
@ John Disney....

Re: MIG 27 thru 29 ....superior in all respects to all current combat ready U.S. fighters. My son says so.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:27 - ID#43349)
In most respects, but not all. Russian combat aircraft are
well designed for close in aerial combat as well as requiring
less in the way of upkeep at war torn facilities and rugged
weather conditions ( the Russians began to beat the the
Germans sohphisticated war machine after the Russian winter
set in. The Russians crude tanks still worked. The Germans
didn't ) .

US combat aircraft are marvels of advanced avionis and
computerized equipment and engage the foe from miles away.

Which would win in a conflict? Hard to say.

Would the engagement begin just before year 2000?

Would Russian airfields be well supplied with vodka?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:37 - ID#57232)
Alberich: I must admit I have not read Goethe. But I think I understnad part of the riddle. Almost everything in the universe is balanced - positive and negative charge, matter and antimatter -- the Yin and Yang, energy and matter.

So you could argue at the end of time that good and evil will converge to create nothing. Therefore there is no reason to exist, as there is really nothing anyway.

The idea that the universe is actually nothing is probably true. But the miracle of creation itself seems to be based on some sort of fluctuation in that nothingness, for example, causing a positive something to be separated from a negative something. And, based on this initial chaotic event that created the primordial universe, other dynamical chaotic events developed somehow in this entropy - violating manner -- at least ten or so fractal - like events, each one building on another, culminating in the miracle of life, and finally intelligent life. I doubt we are even the final highest level of this chaotic branching tree-like process. God is probably at the top.

So Mephistopheles was correct, in a sense. But the point that he missed was that even if life or even the universe does not last forever, there is no need to accelerate the reversal of that mysterious process, and miss the experience of the miracle of life.

Let us say that evil must exist for good to exist. Fine. But just as matter and antimatter do not need to coexist in the same part of the universe, neither do good and evil.

There is another side to this, and that is that we as humans may be placed on this earth to learn -- to continually struggle between good and evil. That is, the concept of good is unknowable if we do not understand evil. How can there be plus without the conterbalance of minus? Or up without down? Once we reach a certain level of understanding, we evolve so some higher level. Perhaps even to a non-corporeal form. But how are we to achieve that unless our soul and intellect ( our non-corporeal part ) are highly developed and self-sustaining? Some of us are more advanced along this path than others. Who knows? Perhaps when we reach a certain level of advancement we can exist even in a universe of nothingness, and become part of God.

So Mephistopheles would want us to stop before we have even begun, and end the miracle of life. That is certainly evil. Hope someone enjoys my musings.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:38 - ID#230376)
@ Gollum....
Which would win ? ...Toss up...

If the Russians are smart the conflict would begin @ 12:01, Jan. 1, 2000 when the DOD's computers stop.

Ibelieve ALL Russian airfields are well stocked with vodka, but we'd better check with Oris to make sure !

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:43 - ID#238422)
gagnrad, thanks.
I'll try as soon as temperature here in Michigan hits
85-100 degree range.Right now I can still try it in
YMCA steam room, but there is no tree there...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:51 - ID#238422)
Usually, in combat conditions, if vodka is not
available at the airbase, there is a group of
designated specialists who can produce it from
different technical fluids cantaining alcohol,
like antifreeze and etc. They use sophisticated
high-tech way of filtration and some elements
of weaponary to build a special distilator for
field use. Can not disclose full details, but it
works. Person in charge of field production is
usually responsible for trial drinkling, and if
he does not die within 15 minutes, drink is then
distributed among customers...I am confident in
Russian Airforce, they will not be dry when crisis

(Sat Jun 06 1998 15:51 - ID#206379)
Common date silver coins
I recently found this chatroom and have been reading the comments here with much interest. I don't own any pm's at present but today I talked to a coin dealer. When I asked how much bag silver sells for he said 3800 a bag. If my calculations are correct that puts a premium of 380 dollars on the value of silver in the coins, assuming the coins are quarters or halves. Is this a fair mark-up in price for these coins? Are my calculations of the silver content accurate? The price of silver I used was 5.26 per ounce. I multiplied this by 90% the amount of silver in the coin alloy and by .1805 the weight of silver in a quarter and finally by 4 to get a factor of .6498 which when multiplied by the cost of silver should yield the value of silver in common silver coins. Any responce will be welcomed.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:00 - ID#269409)
Russkie vs. U.S. fighters
Uh Oh, here we go again with knee jerk U.S.ophile, arrogance, but it can't be helped.

Before joining the ranks of the Satellite manufactruing biz, my entire career involved defense electronics programs, primarily for sustems on U.S. fighterr.

Having worked on several ECM and Radar programs ( Avionics ) for several of the more advanced U.S. fighters including F-15, F-16, and F-22, and having studied the capabilities of these fighters extensively, including their comparison with Russkie couterparts, and even taught SEMINARS to defense electronics suppliers that included a section on these capability comparisons, and having religiously watched every "Wings" episode on the discovery channel showcasing both Russkie and U.S. fighters, and having read every "Aviation Week" type periodical I can get my hands on, every technical journal I could find, and every book I could access on the subject, and having spent extensive time at USAF airbases in Southern CA, with access to technology that required secret clearance level ( as all of the above does ) I can in good conscience unequivically state that....

Russkie fighter jets are GARBAGE compared to their U.S. couterparts.

Remember when the MIG 25 defected to Japan and we finally got our hands on what we thought was extremely advanced fighter technology, and found it to be junk? Things have changed little since then. We stay a decade or two ahead.

As to training, no doubt the Russkies at one time had an extremely brilliant force of well trained fighter pilots...however, I suspect things have changed quite a bit on that front since the complete demoralization of the Russkie armed forces has ocurred in the past few years.

Those who would venture an opinion based on some idiotic journalism piece on the Tele......might do well to put in a bit of actual study on the technical capabilities of these flying weapons platforms first.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:02 - ID#43460)
oris, one thing I forgot to mention
We have a food we eat at social gatherings for the same reasons Russians eat caviar, called the crayfish ( pronounced crawfish ) also called mudbugs. These look like tiny lobsters and are prepared steamed with peppers, garlic and spices and vegetables. One NEVER drinks distilled spirits no matter what the variety with crawfish, but instead drinks beer. The calculation is 5-10 pounds of crawfish, 2 ears of corn, one potato, 1 onion, 1/4 loaf of bread and 1/2 to 1 case of beer per diner. Beer is served cold and crawfish hot. Shoes are optional, but if you try this in your sauna you'll have to make sure not to step on any of the leftovers as their shells are sharp. ( %-^] )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:02 - ID#57232)
Russian Jets Vs American Jets
John Disney, oris: I am no expert on military aircraft, but I do aggreciate ruggedness, which comes in handy when conditions are less that ideal. This is one reason why I am sceptical reagarding superconducting motors in naval ships.

I have an example for both of you. I think it was WWII. There was a major engagement between British and German naval forces. The Germans battleships had superior armor, and superior optics for their big guns. Better accuracy and range. So -- technically they should have won any battle with the British battleships, all other things being equal. Turns out that those Zeiss ( ? ) optics were superior, but suffered from vibration during heavy engagement. What that meant was that as long as the British kept the Germans busy, the Germans could not aim reliably. The less sensitive shorter range British sights did much better, because they did not fade under heavy fire. I do not recall whether it was the German shells or the British shells that messed up the German gunsights. Could have been the vibration from firing their own shells.

I wonder how well our high-tech fighters would work if all the communications satellites, and those radar spotter planes were not operational. Let alone y2k or heavy duty solar flares.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:05 - ID#43460)
wetgold, sorry, I can't read and don't know anybody who does.
I thought they were just to look at. Think I'll go outside and check to see if the temp is 85 yet!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:06 - ID#269409)
@ BillBob...common date "junk" silver coin
You're making it a bit too complex. There is .723 Ounces of silver in each $1.00 face of 90% silver U.S. coin. ( Before accounting for wear, which some dealers account for by using a factor of .715 ) .

Thus you can calculate silver content easily by saying a $1,000 bag contains 723 Ounces of silver X current price of say $5.26 = $ 3,802 bullion value.

You're paying little or no premium.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:09 - ID#206379)
Coins LGB
Thanks for the correction.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:10 - ID#347267)
Weekend Salad
Someone ( Disney?? ) posted what looked to be a salad masterpiece complete with dressing, last weekend, I believe. I thought I had copied, but missed it. Went back and looked, but cannot find --- it started out by saying throw out all iceberg lettuce ---- Would someone point me in the right direction or repost??? Also I missed the way to search the thread --- TIA

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:13 - ID#342273)
@ Billbob - silver content
$1000 face of US '64 or earlier silver coins contain 710 - 720 oz. pure silver. Does your price include delivery charges and tax ( if any ) ? If it does, it sounds OK to me.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:15 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John, thank you, I know that blooper is mistaken,
and I do not care... He knows nothing about this subject
and will not learn...

I believe that this dispute "which is better" has no
big sense at all, it all depends upon people who
use equipment and how they use it. For example, I will
outshoot with my 1942 .303 cal. SMLE #4 rifle nearly every
Russian or American paratrooper or whatever
( not a sniper ) armed with AKs or M-16s, at a
distances of no less then 100 meters. At these distances
I am not afraid to fight them, but at 7 yards - sorry, they
are gonna get me real fast...That is the whole point.

Russian pilots are very cool and can flight and fight
under the influence..which proves they are the best. Just
kidding, it's Saturday...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:19 - ID#287186)
Mtn Bear - your weekend salad - was either of these it?
Rather than repost, here are the coordinates to find the posts.

Date: Sun May 31 1998 00:54
aurator ( what is kitco without a recipe? sorry Bart, but you gotta try this'un ) ID#257148: Crusty

Date: Sat May 30 1998 05:55
John Disney__A ( Salads on Saturday ) ID#24135:
Copyright  1998 John Disney__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Salads .. are delicious BUT they must be made properly.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:21 - ID#206379)
Sales tax would be additional but I figured even with that added the price would be acceptable after reading the responses you and LGB provided.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:22 - ID#238422)
You raised a good point. If communications systems are
down, it will be the primarily target, we are going back
to the situation "who got the best and most dry black

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:23 - ID#238422)
I always knew you are the patriot.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:23 - ID#57232)
No offense LGB
But state-of-the-art is usually not as good. The best technology is often 'last year's model' which has been thoroughly debugged in the field. Americans have tendency to overindulge in technology -- I worked in a defense lab too -- even if I did not make weapons. Closest I came was neutral ion beam heating. So -- we would be far better off with more rugged battle proven craft and not the newest stuff that breaks the bank every time it rains and one of those stealth chips falls off. I never knew that we built aircraft that could not sit our in the rain. Pretty fragile.

On the other hand, I do agree with you that electronically speaking, we are far ahead of the Russians. I never cease to be amazed how many times that Mir space station has to be fixed. On the other hand, just how far are we ahead of the Chinese these days?

But never underestimate the value of numbers and ruggedness. By the way, are your satellites ready for the solar flares coming up this sunspot cycle? I would expect the worst to begin in about 12 months. I don't think we have had really bad solar flares in nearly 40 years. I think one entire power grid was wiped out then -- long before solid state was in general use. And - solid state stuff is much more sensitive to electrical surges. Especially when it has millions of transistors per chip, like the newer stuff.

Anyone know yet why the Galaxy 4 satellite developed a mind of its own? I guess it is long gone. How about pieces? Did it run into some space debris? EMP?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:28 - ID#238422)
Thanks again. Looks like correct recipe for beer.

Spud Master
(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:32 - ID#288235)
@LGB & Russian aircraft
Point One: Reading Aviation Leak & "every other ( prole-feed ) aviation periodical" is a poor way way to know thee capabilities of Russian Aircraft.

Point Two: I wouldn't boast about working on the F-22 "radar" [sic] as it is a classified system. You need to sit down with DISCO for a security refresher it seems.

Point Three: Without our net of information ( AWACS, JITDS, GPS, and MILSTAR ) , our "superior, sophisticated" aircraft would be no better than the individual training and courage of the pilots - and I assure you, we Anericans DO NOT have the market cornered in courage - just ask our Coward In Chief.

Point Four: We are currently following the Roman Empire's last gasp survival technique: sending out perfumed, pansy "diplomats" to bribe the "barbarians". This works well until the barbarians just decide to come and take it.

Spud Triumphant

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:32 - ID#57232)
Signing off for chores
oris: I agree. We Americans boast about our high tech. But that is not what wins the battle. What wins the battle is sturdy, cheap, reliable craft that can function well even if all the backups and some of the spare parts are missing. So much the better if the performance of the craft is better, too. Tested in real engagement.

I know this sounds odd coming from me, as I will not work on weapons of mass destruction. But -- I do believe that a strong 'police force' in the hands of the right power could prevent or delay WWIII.

If there was a Hitler making Nuclear weapons, I would not hesitate one instant in offering my assistance in developing countermeasures.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:34 - ID#238422)
I want to say again that you raised a very important
point, which is the are what gonna happen if communications
are down...say...due to the influence of electromagnetic
impulse generated by nuclear blast. If it happens,
then the second stage of the battle will be lost by the
side who has the most electronics involved...Somebody
in Pentagon should think about it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:35 - ID#401460)
Clinton's Court of Appeals

He appointed 2 of the 3 judges.

He stacked the deck again, no wonder Star was trying to skip this court - Clinton owns them.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:37 - ID#238422)
JTF, sorry, screwed up with the second line....
"...which is what is gonna happen..."

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:39 - ID#373403)
Could the Fed be helping Clinton?
The ultimate targets of monetary policy are specified in law as maximum employment,stable prices and moderate long-term interest rates.

Seems like the impeachment of a president could upset the Fed applecart. Maybe Greenspan is helping Clinton through easy money. Approval rating stays high and so does the economy.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:41 - ID#335190)
Auric @ 5:43 FYI-NSA & Inter-connections. Your post was very informative. Thanks
FWIW - to add to the information you presented.

1945: WW II has killed an estimated:
............Soviet Union has lost...25 Million
........... China has lost..... 7.8 Million
........... Poland has lost.... 6 Million or 22 per cent of her people.
........... USofA has lost..... 300,000

World Population 1920... 1.86 Billion

Population 1921...USofA...100 Million
Population 1921...Russia..136 Million
Population 1921...China...???????????

Population 1941...UsofA...132 Million
Population 1941...USSR....181 Million
Population 1941...China...500 Million

Population 1981...USofA...228 Million
Population 1981...USSR....266 Million
Population 1981...China...1 BILLION

World population 1950....2.52 Billion

World population 1981....4.50 Billion

1946: "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an IRON CURTAIN has descended across the Continent" says former prime minister Winston Churchill. Truman is in the audience and also hears the statesman declare that Moscow's totalitarian dominance has produced a decline of confidence in "the haggard world"

China's civil war resumes, after a truce of more than 3 months, negotiated by Gen. George C. Marshall. A Sino-American treaty of friendship, commerce, and navigation is signed November 4, a national assembly meets November 15 without Communist representation, and the Chinese adopt a new constitution December 25, but Mao Zedong has 1 Million men in uniform plus 2 Million guerrillas, he orders all-out war against the Nationalists.

France bomb Haiphong November 23 and kill 6,000 Vietnamese. Ho Chi Minh ( communist ) tries to drive out French. France proclaim an autonomous Republic of Cochin China at Saigon.

The Nuremberg Tribunal return verdicts September 30.

The United Nations General Assembly opens its first session January 10 at London. The U.N. Security Council meets for the first time January 17.
Selects New York as permanent site December 5, then accepts a gift of $8.5 Million from John D. Rockefeller. Jr. towards purchase of property on the East River.

Strikes idle some 4.6 million U.S. workers during the year with loss of 116 million man-days, the worst stoppage since 1919.
260,000 electrical workers strike General Electric, Westinghouse, and General Motors January 15.
263,000 meat packers strike January 16.
750,000 steel workers strike January 20.

Truman February 14, announced a wage-pattern formula, entitles U.S. Labor to 33 per cent wage increases that equal the rise in the cost of living since January 1941.

Congress passed an employment act February 20 DECLARES THAT MAXIMUM EMPLOYMENT must be the government's policy goal.

The Philippines gain independence from the United States July 04, ( McDuffle-Tydings Act 1934 ) The Philippine Republic tries to subdue the Communist led peasant party.

A new Japanese constitution, drafted by young Lawyer's on Gen. MacArthurs' staff.

U.S Military authorities conduct the first Bikini Atoll atomic bomb test in the Pacific in July.

The Cheribon Agreement initialed by Dutch and Indonesian diplomats November 15 follows conclusion of a truce in the fighting between Indonesians and Dutch and British forces, the Dutch agree to recognize the Indonesian Republic.

The British Government take over the Bank of England February 14.

1947:::The Central Intelligence Agency ( CIA ) authorized by Congress in the National Security Act ( NSA ) July 26 in response to an order by President Truman works to counter activities by Moscow, which is pouring money into Western Europe and attempting through local Communist parties to establish governments.

The President has acted on the advice of SECRETARY OF STATE MARSHALL AND JAMES V. FORRESTAL, the new secretary of defence.

Britain sets up Pakistan as an independent Muslim State bordering India. A dispute over control of KASHMIR is referred to the U.N., after MILLIONS have died in bloody riots.

Congress forbids the CIA ( National Security Act ) to have "police, subpoena, law enforcement powers or internal security functions" inside the USofA lest the agency conflict with the FBI and jeopardize the privacy of USofA citizen's. 1950s and 1960s change all this in violation of the National Security Act.

COLD WAR-- HOLLYWOOD BLACK LIST, of alleged Communists, some 300 writers, directors, actors and others.

Truman asks Congress November 17 to appropriate $597 million for immediate aid to France, Italy, and Austria. Congress authorizes $540 million December 23 for interm aid to France, Italy, Austria, AND CHINA. $12.5 Billion in MARSHALL PLAN FUNDS over the next 40 months. ( to halt the spread of Communism, and restore economic health )

1949:::The U.S. Defense Department is created August 10 by retitling of the War Department under terms of the NATIONAL SECURITY ACT OF 1947

The First secretary of defense JAMES V. FORRESTAL resigned in March with symptoms of NERVIOUS EXHAUSTION AND DEPRESSION, entered Bethesda Naval Hospital AND JUMPED FROM A WINDOW THERE MAY 22, DYING AT AGE 57.

FWIW.........Take Care

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:43 - ID#57232)
1996 GAO report of Technology Transfer to China
All: You should look at the Softwar site. Alot of FIA papers on the ChinaMissleSatGate stuff.

Spud Master
(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:46 - ID#288235)
@LGB & Point Four
As an addendum, I would like to pint out the our failure to disuade Pakistan from its six nuclear shots marks a watershed event in American would-be world hegemony:

Clinton's diplomatic toy-boys must have offered every imaginable inducement, foreign aid package, loan, bribe to them NOT to test and they did it anyway.

Conclusion: we can't even bribe the barbarians anymore.


ps - We are the greatest hypocrites to chastise other nations for their nuclear porgrams, when we ourselves are the progenitors of the whole sick, techno-perversion called Nuclear Weapons. We the Man. You just a little Third World dollar-slave. Spend yo' FED dollars working for The Man, sending us cheap microwaves, cars, NIKE child labour tennis shoes - not wasting it on nukes, and damn sho' not on yo cit-ti-zens.

what? Our "moral superiority" gives us the right to have them, but no one else? Please have Bill Clinton explain the concept of morality to our American children...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:55 - ID#412286)
What is going on. I am involved with an estate of a US citizen where there are significant assets in Australia. We may use the six months after date of death valuation for estate tax purposes because the Aussie buck is falling so much. What is going on and when does it stop?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:56 - ID#373403)
Federal Reserve Board
Remarks by Laurence H. Meyer
Before the Downtown Economics Club 50th Anniversary Dinner, New York, NY
June 3, 1998

"The two numbers perhaps most startling in the current environment are 4.3 and 100. The 4.3 is the percent unemployed, the lowest level in more than a quarter of a century. The 100 is the billions of dollars of inventory investment in the first quarter, a record level, nearly double the forecast going into the quarter, and between 3 and 4 times the amount of inventory investment compatible with trend growth. This should unquestionably contribute to some drag on production going forward."

See, I told you overproduction account for our current utopia

(Sat Jun 06 1998 16:57 - ID#57232)
Really must log off!
oris: Agreed - an EMP would do it. I know our military stuff is hardened, but even hardened satellites do not work during the pulse ( if close enough ) , or though the ionization.

All: That Softwar site has some interesting stuff, but the most interesting is the GAO report ( 11/13/96, GAO/NSIAD-97-5 ) .

See you all later!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:01 - ID#255283)
@JTF: I liked your Philosophical Thoughts..
and especially how you associate Yin and Yang into this attempt to capture the essence of good and evil.

Yin and Yang brings a new layer into the complex riddle.

Today I tend to think that either good or evil originally is an event created in the human soul. The good is a creative act with devine content, evil is a creation with anti-devine content. Both creations do not co-exist in the same soul. They are by nature antagonistic.

The creation in the soul finds its acting expression towards the outside world or else the creation is not completed. In this understanding a soul can reach devine perfection or satanic perfection or remain in the state of imperfection, unfoulded awareness, ( naitety ) into which we all are born.

I do not believe anymore that the universe itself has any quality of good or evil. But I enjoy the aestetic fascination of pictures ( like darkness and light ) which attempt to capture the riddle.

I also think there is a fourth state possible, besides the unmolded imperfection, the devine and the enmity towards the devine, and that is the dead soul. The dead soul would be a pseudo-living person who died into blind slavery of purpose and pleasure and has for ever lost his/her connection towards the devine meaning of life.

The state of imperfection we get as a present by birth. The other three states are the result of self-creation.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:03 - ID#27341)
James-14:27- well done.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:03 - ID#207145)
I certainly hope Ruskies have great planes,
as they will have to last. Russia is broke.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:04 - ID#287186)
Gagnrad: A Perspective from a Coloradan on Governor Romer
and the handling of the Southwest Colorado officer killing.
Gov Romer is getting national media coverage on this. He is the Chairman of the Democratic Party. He is one of slick willy's defending spokesmen.
He is in the tail-end of a 12-year governorship with no option to run for another four years. His political career can only go to Senator or President - likely in 2004. He has his own mistress-gate to deal with. He has vetoed concealed carry bills. If he can prove he can be tough vis-a-vis troopers searching civilians he may be well on his way to becoming Clinton II.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:14 - ID#335190)
Talks resume to resolve GM strike in Michigan

The UAW brought GM's North American production to its knees in March 1996 when members struck two brake plants in Dayton, Ohio. The 17-day walkout shut 26 assembly plants, idled more than 175,000 workers and cost GM $900 million in profits.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:19 - ID#335190)
Lawmen again lose trail of fugitives in rugged landscape

"These are demented minds, in my opinion," Colorado Gov. Roy Romer said Friday. "They had in mind either one or more series of operations. This is typical of a paramilitary operation."

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:25 - ID#434158)
Y2K's oldest victim
Y2K problems are being blamed on computer programmers ( Management would be a better choice ) but the problem pre-dates computers... by 320 years or so! BBC Online Network reports that the "Equatorium," a 400-plus year old brass instrument for calculating the positions of sun, moon and planets by date, will cease to work correctly on 01/01/2000. The curators of the Liverpool Museum are at a loss for any way to make repairs. Made in England or France, it's author is unknown. Several others exist, but this was the only one which took into consideration date changes made since the time of Copernicus in the 16th century. The Equatorium had been donated from the collection of a GOLDSMITH, Joseph Mayer.

Oh, well, back to the drawing board!!!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:39 - ID#27341)
News Flash, Addvanced Aussie combat Fighter, code-named-EMU.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:40 - ID#210235)
@Searching for one another's book recommendations?
I have found this site to be a real time saver whenever the name and title of a book is known. It searches ABE, Bibliofind, and several other sources with only one entry required by you.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:41 - ID#287186)
These Nuts with delusions of paramilitary "patriotic heroism"
such as the cop killers in Colorado and the "freemen" in Montana
are making it easier for Romer and Clinton to crack down on honest militias and gun-owning civilians. The efforts of some militia members to reign in the radical fringe are obviously not working well enough. This simmering pot is starting to spatter bystanders. The USG apparently does not want to turn the heat down because these eruptions gives them excuses to put the lid on any related activity.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 17:53 - ID#412172)
Spud @ Barbarians
Spud, your most significant line was:

Conclusion: we can't even bribe the barbarians anymore.

For the rest just accept the fact of US/Roman Empire parallels with allowances for a dozen plus centuries imbetween.
The most significant event with barbarian bribes and the Romans was when the barbarians were crossing the frontier and had to surrender their weapons to the Romans ( they were granted asylum ) , they bribed the Roman soldiers to get their weapons back. These same barbarians later sacked Rome.
i.e., watch out for when the barbarians bribe us ( US ) . OH, how about that, Chinagate, Indonesia campaign contributions.....
Revelations, here we come????

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:02 - ID#335184)
HIGHRISE - KLINTON Packing the Courts ?
En Banc i.E., the whole panel of the Circuit is majority Republican.
The Supremes also tend to be less political when seperation of powers & curbing Executive authority are at stake.
Also, the merits of The Boy Prez's legal arguments are so lacking that they will easily fail.
Note that the Circuit put the hearing on a fast track so that their opinion will be rendered well before thw Supremes return in the 1st week in October & before Starr reports to Congress on Impeachment.
Thank the Lord for life time tenure of the Federal Judiciary.



(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:06 - ID#413195)
in sack-o-tomatoes
A whimisical tale of the grateful goldfish:

Okay, boys and girls, perhaps if all of us goldbugs coordinated our efforts and simultaneously released a goldfish . . . who knows what good things might happen to our beloved yellow? . . .

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:22 - ID#39857)
.59c is the next platform for Aussie$. Then .57c. Then .55c.
Meanwhile gold in Aussie$ should spike. At .55 and gold at
$300 then Aussie gold will be $545.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:27 - ID#373403)
Because it was so profound, I will repeat myself
Macroeconomics:How to reconcile falling profits, record low unemployment, high productivity, and strong demand.

The answer is overproduction stimulated by easy fiscal policy. The first economies to collapse are those which rely the heaviest on export and conversely the least on domestic demand for their GNP.

Overproduction is a nasty spiral where the only way, short of collusion and production cuts, to save profits in an environment where margins are falling is to increase production, thereby exacerbating the overproduction problem. Of course it is no ones interest to act unilaterally.

The past eighteen years began with fiscal overstimulation during Reagan through 1995 when we cut the deficit and let M3 money supply begin to spiral. Somehow the extra money created, out of thin air, ended up as investment capital instead of consumer spending. By the narrow definition of inflation as it is defined, we have seen low inflation. The promises of greater rewards have kept the money working to generate further wealth.

This leads us back to high capital investment, high productivity growth, low unemployment, and high levels of output. Since inflation ( spending of these excess dollars ) has not been allowed and population increases are not signifigant, demand has not kept pace with output. Falling prices, higher output to recapture profits, high employment to produce this output, massive business contraction in export based economies as corporate financing slowly creeps towards bad debt ( marginal costs greater than marginal revenue ) . Witness Asia, South America and now Russia.

The banking crisis is brought on by the innability of businesses to realize enough revenue on each incremental rise in production to cover greater financing required. This leaves them the choice of contracting and losing market share or going forward and risk the health of the banking industry which is forced to throw good money after bad until it
all becomes bad.

This all speaks for deflation.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:34 - ID#27341)
Re-Aussie Combat Fighter-Re-Performance Envalope-See Aussie $-.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:41 - ID#412172)
It has been fun, even from our civil confrontation so long ago, and I still look forward to your posts. You do write well, at least for a Metal Man ;- )
Has it been a year already since we have been graced with your literary skills and agile ( and at times thin skinned! ) wit? Even so it is fitting, since we have spent nearly a year leering at your golden shorts, that you celebrate by oogling the tops topside. And I await your report from European seers anxiously.
But, while topside,
Please keep your hands firmly on the rail so you do not fall overboard!
Have a grand time.....

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:48 - ID#255151)
For Junk Silver Junkies

Just saw a quote for Kennedy halves, '65-'69. These are 40% Silver content. $1000 face value ( 2000 coins ) was quoted at $1600. You get about 320 ounces of Silver. This is about $5/ounce. In other words, a discount. Cheapest way I know to get Silver.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:53 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Fidelity Select American Gold & Precious Metals Charts:
Five Year Chart
120 market days Chart
30 market days Chart
10 days Hourly Chart

(Sat Jun 06 1998 18:57 - ID#411112)
Squirrel,you are correct however,this strain of white trash are to young and ignorant to be part of

any Militia.....lets look at who this administration has vilified than ask whats wrong with this picture.................
......Christians.......Patriots.......White Guys........Conservatives........The Rich.......Tobacco.......OIC..........The voters of California.......Dan Burton......Fred Thompson......Militias......Talk Show Hosts....Gun Rights Groups........Larry Pratt....Larry Klayman........Moses.....the list goes on and on

silver plate
(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:01 - ID#234253)
JTF - back to the good and evil
I find the dilemma with our present knowledge unsolvable because of a universal observation. ALL LIVINGS THINGS EAT EACH OTHER TO SURVIVE. ( This may not be entirely true of some plant life ) . When I look at all the wonderful forms of life and then contemplate them devouring each other out of sheer nessecity to live, logic evaporates. Even humans while not cannibals any longer, eat each other economically. This system on this planet is unalterable. Therefore, if we eat each other to stay alive how do we define good and bad?

In the above argument I equate all livings things as being equal and do not ascribe humans as having a devine origin.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:03 - ID#411112)
Auric....40% silver Kennedys $1000 face = 295 ozs.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:12 - ID#57232)
Another post about Janet Reno muzzling George Tenet on Loral business
All: This post will not get the margins. Same info as my earlier one. I think CIA director George Tenet is now allowed to report on the Loral episode ( classified ) . There was a criminal investigation going on for some time, apparently, and now it is coming out in the open.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:25 - ID#26793)
Some interesting and historic Dow/Gold lore.
From September 3, 1929, to November 7, 1929, the Dow/Gold Ratio fell 9 ounces.

From October 5, 1987 to October 19, 1987, the Dow/Gold Ratio fell less than 2 ounces.

We are now 13 ounces over the 1929 high. I wonder how much we could drop in the main part of a plunge? 15 ounces?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:28 - ID#255151)

The way I calculated the 320 ounce figure was to take the amount of silver in $1000 face of pre-'65 coins ( 715 ounces ) and multiply by 4/9 which works out to 318 ounces. Did I make a flawed assumption? ( it wouldn't be the first time! )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:36 - ID#43352)
Yin and Yang.

When one begins to approach the idea of beginning to discuss the make up
of Yin and Yang one finds oneself faced with an insolvable problem.

The immeidate problem is that the underlying essence from which the
universe arises embodies the possiblities and potentialities of ALL
things including both those that we can percieve and those we can not.

As soon as we begin to speak of it, nay even think of speaking of it
we are encompassing only those parts of it we can entertain in our
thoughts, differenting them against the background of those parts we
are not and those we can not and necessarily no longer thinking or
speaking of IT, but rather just a small part of it.

That which can be spoken of is not it.

In our search for truth and the meaning of good and evil and all the
other aspects of Truth, we have to always realise that Truth is infinite
and our minds are not.

We are like a man looking for an invisible and untouchable bush. At best
we can only beat all around the bush and by looking down and seeing
where our tracks lay in the snow. Where our tracks aren't is where the
bush is.

silver plate
(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:54 - ID#234253)
Yin and yang
Gollum: your post reminds me of Ouspensky and I went slightly nutty trying to understand him.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:55 - ID#342315)
Is the Fed helping Clinton
Has a cat got fur!! Does a bear sh!t in the woods!!?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:55 - ID#43352)
I have a camera. It has several interchangeable lenses an a couple of
backs. Sometimes I load one kind of film in one back and some other
kind of film in another back. I might also take along a lens for
wide angle shots as well as one for close ups. Maybe one for low light
available light conditions.

If I take the lens off I am left holding only one of the backs in hand.

If I take the back off I am left holding only one of the lenses.

Where among all these parts is the camera?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:57 - ID#43352)
@silver plate
Yes. That happens.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 19:59 - ID#43352)
a man makes a comment, out in the woods where there is no woman to
hear, is he still wrong?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:01 - ID#284255)
JTF - MtnBear - namaste
In The Making Of Man

Four rivers flow from the garden
Four great streams govern the soul.

First and greatest -- Id
The ceaseless flooding flow
Of the deep unconscious self
Source of all fantasy
In the living mind
In deep and hidden tides
All here confined.

Birthplace of all our gods
The deep unfathomed mind
Where all experience abides
And all our fears enshrined.

I AM dwells silent here
I govern all -- a hell
Or heaven on earth as men desire
Within my call.

Then flows the turbulent stream
Of primitive emotion
Conditioned or unconditioned
The hates, the greed, the rages
Lies and false witness -- and pride
Darkest of all follies
Wars and great scandals
All jostle in this turgid stream
Who frolics here his cause is lost
As was Pandora and her fateful box.

And the third great river is action
Fed by the same deep springs
But the waters, clearer by intent
Are governed, and direct us to
The better life; the fields about
Grow fruitful and abundant
These waters nourish all.

Fancy is sublimed to action
Imagination blooms in vision
And creation flowers
All the future is seeded here
And nourished to bring forth
Man's dreams to bright reality.

From the sands of this great river
Is the gold panned -- hard won
Of wisdom -- understanding
And beauty flourish here
And all the works of man's hands
And the vision of his questing mind
Here satisfied.

Prometheus unbound -- and he
Dreamer and maker
Of all that is yet to be.

And the last great stream
Acheron -- no other
No Cerberus here -- but Lethe
Brings forgetfulness of the past life
And the stream moves on
To the unknown goal
A rebirth in some other where.

These waters, mingle and meld
Through all our ways
Claiming last penance
Life's work, life's dreams, life's days
And all achievement
Sad tribute from all men.

Small solace
That all men share such fate
Life beyond Life -- beyond this death
Another birth, another life beyond death's gate.

Through all our myriad
Our diverse and individual ways
Such waters run, the full tides
Flow unceasing through our days.

And some grow swift -- and fair
Nourished by the waters
For seed is fruitful in the fertile mind
And the wide plains grow lush
And beauty flowers there.

And the swift flow and the rush
And the white broken waters
And the dark still deeps
And the placid reaches, sun warmed
Of the four great rivers
Which compass the garden
They are the life and death and birth
Of all mankind. The flow
Of the four great rivers of life
Which set the garden of our world around.

Thanks to all
Party day today
Back to reality so soon tomorrow.
Such are the joys of life.
Friends, companionship and food,
Some ale and talk of gold.

Today shall be a fine day.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:01 - ID#342376)
@ Gollum
Great Post! There are higher truths. Your thoughts which reflect Taoism, are IMHO, the highest truth we can understand on this plane. It also defines why I have trouble with the "Scientific Method" ( and some of our posters for that matter ) . NO system is ever closed.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:02 - ID#255151)

I found Miss Right. Problem was, she turned into Mrs. Always Right! ( thank you, thank you very much )

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:03 - ID#411112)
Auric...sign up next to me....I make a habit of putting the foot in the mouth.....bottom line even
at + - $1600.00 its a deal,whats the risk factor....$600.00 period......these bags in 1980 were trading for $15, order to achive the American Dream you have to buy low and sell order to do that you have to buy low....not many have the guts to do that

Spud Master
(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:04 - ID#288235)
@Squirrel & liberal "militia" fear mongering
One can not easily impose martial law & permanent suspension of the US Constitution without a handy bogey-man.

As Hitler used the Jews as the excuse for his evil grab for power, so the current adminstration is using Christians, militas, white men, etc. Those in Washington D.C. know these are the very groups who stand in the way for their bestial lust for a "kinder, gentler" American dictatorship.

If there weren't lunatic Colorado thugs running around, or murderous McVieghs, or shyster Freemen to use as an excuse to continue twisting the screw of loss of our freedoms, there are those in Washington who would create them, just as Hitler and his perverted cowards villified Jews, Gypsies and intellectuals who opposed his monsterous plans.

I fully expect Clinton & crew to be planning some sort of martial law in America start late 1999, under a triple-headed National Emergency excuse of Domestic Terrorism/Year 2000 Computer Failures/Stock Market Crash.

The legions of wiped-out yuppies and baby-boomers will howl for scape-goats and Clinton & crew will be ready to deliver up "those responsible" - for which the great masses of idiot, TV-sucking baby-boomers have been ***conditioned*** by the Press to believe are responsible: Christians ( intolerant, anti-freedom of choice, likely-white-supremists ) , US Constitution advocates ( domestic terrorists ) , individual rights advocates ( selfish threats to the collective good ) , and gold-bugs ( greedy hoarders who caused thee market crash ) .

We are now a national of poorly educated, tolerate-no-criticism, feel-good people, easily led about by our emotions. It will end in the same concentration camps of the Nazis, Soviet Gulags and Cambodian killing fields.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:05 - ID#43352)
Scientific method has it's uses just like reading a chart has it's

One should, however, never mistake either one for truth.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:05 - ID#411112)
Gollum ...the answer....YES :)


(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:07 - ID#43352)
Ah,robnoel, you show keen insight! Yes, neccessarily anything we think
is wrong or at best incomplete. Our minds are small. God is big.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:08 - ID#255151)

Ditto to your 20:03. It's a cheap insurance policy. And it is Y2K compliant!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:10 - ID#57232)
Survival of the Fittest? We are evolving intellectually.
silver plate: Predator - prey in the natural world, and good versus evil. Good points. I do not have a really effective response to this --I have thought about it too. I think the best answer is that this reveals where our survival instincts come from - our biological origins. Regardless of whether you believe we evolved from the apes, we are genetically very similar. Our brain structure is extremely similar to all mammals on the earth, and does have some similarity to reptilian/avian brains as well. Our brainstem probably has wired in some very primitive responses that our cerebrum has a hard time overcoming.

So what does this mean? We are intellectual, self aware, but still very much animals. We have great difficulty overcoming our baser instincts. But -- we do know it is wrong to kill others, for any reason. An animal would kill to eat, and feel guiltless. We would feel guilt because we are aware at a very high level, and understand the terrible crime of destroying an intelligent entity. We would have no qualms killing a fish, but a killing a very small human embryo that looks like a fish is something very different.

I now suggest thinking of something else. Consider a caretaker ( CT ) who has been able to eliminate his baser instincts for some reason, perhaps evolving over millions of years. Let us say that the CT's culture has nearly infinite resources, and death is not an issue to worry about. Genetic engineering is commonplace in some form. There are ethical rules about the type and extent of genetic engineering ( I hope ) . The CT's culture is stable, and has survived that critical period when many members of his/her/its society had access to weapons of mass destruction. Let us also assume that the CT decides that he wants to do something with his nearly immortal life that is really worthwhile. What would that be?

What if he/she/it has become aware of other intelligences in the universe, some more advanced, some less advanced, some spacefaring, some planet-bound. First the CT's species would contact those who are more advanced. Let us assume that has happened. So what is left? To observe and aid other species to evolve. I think that would be glorious. Humans, perhaps?

But -- as we know from biology, biodiversity gives strength to an ecosystem. What about an interstellar ecosystem? Intellectual biodiversity and discovery of significant concepts require that each civilization evolve independently. Think about the potential of allowing all intelligent entities in the universe to evolve independently for a time, and then comparing notes. Just imagine what precious secrets might be uncovered! So our CT must be discreet if he is to monitor or help an intelligent species to evolve, and overcome their baser instincts. I suspect something like this is happening, eg Arthur C. Clarke's 2001, 2010. And Carl Sagan's 'Small blue Planet', and 'Contact'. And, there is another reason why it makes sense to intervene minimally while a species is going through the phase we are going through. If we destroy ourselves, we were probably too violent in our natures to respect other intelligent species anyway.

Why do I think that our baser instincts are fading, and we are becoming less like animals? That is because our worldly existence is improving, our governments are actually better and more sophisticated than they were, say 1000 years ago. We are getting less animal - like. And -- that we are going through a critical period of adjustment where we could easily destroy ourselves. I also optimistic because because I am pretty sure that we are not alone in the Universe. Given this premise, if the Universe was filled with warlike creatures, we would have been overrun long ago. Since we are left to ourselves, this means that there are other intelligent species in the Universe who have been able to overcome their more primitive instincts. If so, we can too. We probably have someone or something ( a CT ) watching over us. But any intervention must be very subtle, or our contribution to the rest of the intelligent species of the universe is diminished. This critical phase we are going through may be a test of our worthiness -- failure may be possible.

We will probably find that our laws and rules, and our concept of right and wrong are uniquely human, probably due in part to our basic biological design. But we will find ( I think ) some aspects of the Human ideal we dream about in other civilizations when we make first contact.

I am saddened that Carl Sagan will not be alive to see this happen -- it may happen within our lifetimes. And -- when it does -- we will better understand our animal nature, and what we are evolving into.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:12 - ID#187218)
crazytimes@20:01 ,,,, ah ,,,,,,, life ,,,,,, the Tao ,,,,,,, ever flowing thru our veins ,,,
,,,,,, love that Lao Tsu ,,,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:13 - ID#43352)
And should we stand upon the bank and watch this river, that a man is,
flowing by we forget that moment by moment we are watching different
water than what was there a moment ago.

We see only the river.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:13 - ID#342376)
@ Gollum
To describe a pen from the western perspective is to reduce it to it's quantities. How long is it, what is it made of, what is the chemical make-up of the ink, etc. To that, I may say, if you say it is 5 inches, what if someone gets 5.1 inches? What about 5.16? What about 5.167? Yada, Yada, Yada...There will always be a measurement more exacting. From an eastern perspective, the pen is defined as something I use to communicate my ideas from my mind onto paper for the purpose of communication. That is IMHO closer to the truth of a pen.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:15 - ID#57232)
What is man?
sharefin: Thank you. I will read your poem several more times.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:16 - ID#187218)
Does ANOTHER make appearances on Saturday evenings or has his
series been cancelled till 'another time' ? ,,,,,
Does Kosares have a site that he perhaps visits ,,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:19 - ID#411112)
Auric....a most profound statement my friend....the ones the that are usually passed by...


(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:22 - ID#342376)
My last post about the pen is why some people may have a problem with ANOTHER. He does not quantify, which is how most see the universe in the West.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:32 - ID#27341)
Heavy going!
can i add my bit, the truth has not, and will not be written.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:32 - ID#43352)
Your pen is like the wings on a bird.

Writing your thoughts is like a a bird flying.

Westerners think that a bird can fly because a bird has wings.

Does a bird fly because a bird has wings?

NO. There are things that have wings yet do not fly, such as penguins.
And there are things that fly, yet do not have wings, such as balloons.

A bird flying and a bird having wings are just things that happen together,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:36 - ID#187218)
JTF @ 20:10 ,,,, the problem with the common man's outlook on genetic engineering
is that most don't understand the current/past human condition and the role deformities play. Many in the 'NON-scientific' community who have been writing books and papers discussing ( in laymen's terms ) the direction by which genetic engineering research will take us is reasonable in theory but detrimental in practice. They inform the citizenry that the research money for mapping the 'Human Genome' is to eliminate disease, retardation, autism, cancer, etc. This is simply not true ...
Dobzhansky's classic work on evolution written in 1962 based on the Silliman memorial lecture at Yale called "Mankind Evolving" is the best book I've ever read regarding this topic. In it lies the reasons mutations and genetic polymorphisms are necessary if the on-going saga of man ( as we know ) is to survive. ( this-era-was-the-pre-genetic-engineering-buzz-word-period )
In 1965 the scientific community coutlined numerous problems with gathering empirical data regarding human behaviour... these few books and several others I can't recall off-hand is the basis for 'Modern' studies of genetic engineering from the scientific community.
Parenthetically ----- The Nazi medical studies that had taken place during WWII has greatly benefitted western medicine ---- BUT ---- the AMA won't admit to this ------- another story ,,,,, for another time ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:37 - ID#342376)
Never mind the pickles and Vodka!
The forum today makes me think of other substances. Weekends at Kitco......Where's EB?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:38 - ID#288369)
Welcome back, friend...long time, no hear!!!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:40 - ID#284255)
Gollum - MU
Many swim the rivers of life
Rarely stopping to perceive
The realities which flow past.

The views from the bank
However, are enchanting and engaging
Synapses of life revealed.

Short, sharp and suscinct
These perceptions, so subtle
Alter the way we go forward.

Time - spent on the banks of life
Is special and richly rewarding
To those who seek for understanding.

Sitting on the banks is MU
To perceive the flow of YIN and YANG
Amidst the waters of life.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:41 - ID#344290)
@ billbob
I order out of state and have shipped to save sales tax which in my case is 6% - shipping is much cheaper.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:43 - ID#373284)
Let us go and hunt two humans...
If you dimwits can't find these boys .........HEY, HEY...I will bring in a team...MURDER IS MURDER...BUT DO NOT SPEND MY F_CKING MONEY...FEDERAL MY ASS...


(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:44 - ID#187218)
,,, just read a book today called "Mind over Money" by John W. Schott ,,,,,,,,,
,,,,, rather basic ,,,,, BUT ,,,,, good gift for someone 'not-in-the-know' like us ,,,,, Mr. Schott is a Harvard trained Psychiatrist with an interest in financial matters ,,,,, he comes from 3-4 generations of many and had lotsa support and modeling while growing up so the transition was rather simple for him ,,,,,, decided to bridge his Psychiatry business with the emotial aspect of dealing in markets ,,,,, well written BUT again - for the up-n-coming investor ,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:44 - ID#43352)
Indeed. All is MU. Yet from the one flows all things.
Such mystery!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:45 - ID#187218)
SORRY --- "... 3-4 generations of many ... " === "... 3-4 generations of MONEY ... "

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:46 - ID#43352)
and yet, truth is.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:48 - ID#373284)
And he knew their fear...HE knew nothing of these boys...THE WEST, HA!!!
yeah, I am one who belives the liars...NOT...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:51 - ID#27341)
mystery indeed!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:52 - ID#187218)
some quotes from "Mankind Evolving" ,,,
"gene mutation is the ultimate source of evolutionary changes and also a source of much human misery"

"mutation is one of the principal determinants of the evolutionary status of mankind"

"no single mutation can transform one human race into another or transform man into a different species"

"information containing the frequency of mutations is indispensable for understanding human evolution"

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:53 - ID#288369)
@In my dysfunctional mind....fidel was dead years ago..........
So let us celebrate tonight.....Cuba Libre! por todos. Salud.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:55 - ID#43352)
I have heard that nothing goes faster than the speed of light. Many
people ( of those that care to think about it ) believe this to be true
because they have heard the relativistic physicists say so.

The quantumm dynamists know better.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:57 - ID#26793)
More historic Dow/Gold lore.
I just finished entering daily Dow/Gold Ratio data from mid 1927 through mid 1930 so I have a full 233 day moving average for the crash period. The ratio pierced the 233 MA on October 22, 1929. Then it recovered to the upside and pierced all the averages EXCEPT the 233 MA which is failed to cross on 4/15/30. That was a signal to plunge again into 1932.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:59 - ID#284255)
JTF - and of Eve?
Six Days

Six days He said
And it was so
Because He said it.

For, as He explained to Eve
Who liked to talk about things
In a general kind of way
( Before He tempted them. )

It was manifestly
Quite impossible
To set out all the detail
They wouldn't understand
The science or the planning.

Why sure, they must have truth
Laid out most clear
And simple in their day
That he who runs may read
No fool
Need stumble on this way.

And so the long ages
Of thoughtful preparation
Land -- seas -- and air
And the sun and moon
Made the rich seed bed
Of all the wonder there.

Then the reproductive cells
And the selection of the best
From the humblest beginnings
Dear Eve -- another age
Has quickly passed by here.

Then the simple cell
Through progressive orders
Each the planned product
Of the proven one before
Flora and fauna in profusion
Grace earth, in variety profound
And through the years -- long ages
Transformed to higher orders
Our critics to confound.

Long ages and profoundest thought
To consolidate the frame
And vital parts -- womb, heart and brain
Transmission of the best
By cross fertility to shape
All future destinies, and so refine
Orders with species -- beauty and design.

And so by such tedious
Constructive and intensive
Means, cunning and inventive
( The knowing ones will understand
The symbols and the deep intent )
The universal oneness
Of each separate individual --
By such means have I evolved
My consciousness in man.

And this world's work dear Eve
Is really just begun
With you
Your children will resolve
Great mysteries, bright in the dreaming
Their hands, my hands will be
Unfolding all - shaping the future
Whence all return to me.

How tell them this?
Always they ask "why"
And "who" and "how"
But wax impatient
Beg for simple answers
Magic -- signs.

And so I said "Six days"
Thus encompassing all
Countless eons are compressed
In proper order
In those six days expressed.

And on the seventh day
( Septenary signs, ripe with
Wisdom of the ages lie about )
Thus on the seventh day
I rested.

So rest you Dear Eve
And ponder wisdom
Understanding will flower
In the deep heart.

Reflect on my words and works
In certain faith
And through long ages yet to be
Hold steadfast faith
With confidence in me.

Will be back tomorrow .

(Sat Jun 06 1998 20:59 - ID#187218)
,,,, "... nothing goes faster than the speed of light ... "
,,, how 'bout Newtonian relativity ,,,, c + v relative to a stationary object ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:05 - ID#43352)
Even an animal would not, however, kill it's own kind to eat ( I know,
there are exceptions ) . Men, on the other hand, will kill their own
kind to gain the others goods. It seems to be a good choice of word
to say that man descended from the apes.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:08 - ID#373284)

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:12 - ID#43352)
Can't do it.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:17 - ID#1267)
Is Janet Reno any worse an AG than, say, John Mitchell? The real problem isn't about liberals & conservatives. The real problem is the nature of power, which always takes more than it gives...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:22 - ID#288369)
Janet Reno's crap shoot in waco...cost Oklahoma the lives of 168 good citizens...and many of us are not confused as to the cause and we shall never forgive or forget. My special thoughts tonight to the extraordinary wife and sons of Michael Weaver, the "weave", my pledge brother, blown to bits by a retaliatory bomb.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:22 - ID#187218)
Gollum ,,,,, absolutely can ,,,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:25 - ID#187218)
consider the guy standing in a box car with a light source in hand ,,,, if the light source
is pointing toward the direction of car movement --- the relative speed by which an observer on 'terra firma' sees the speed of the pulse by c + v according to Newtonian relativity ...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:28 - ID#433172)
mtn bear
Be sure to include hard red winter wheat ( organic ) in 5 gallon plastic pails. Get a ton, help your neighbors, they can be a most valuable asset if they aren't predatory. If you don't have a problem later you can always eat the wheat or plant it. I've gone through 2 tons so far, I'm ready to buy more. Good for dogs too,boil it up and add whatever else you have. They do well on it.
If you have a breeder dog be sure and stock up on bullets because you will have to shoot the offspring. Endlessly.
Might be a good idea to diversify your fuel supply, geta diesel generator, little one, no more than 4 H.P. Store your fuel in plastic container s ( buried ) . That eliminates condensation and rusting.
At least 2 VHF handheld ( waterproof ) transievers. Supply of antibiotics.
A mutual suportting relationship with your neighbors could in the long run be most important of all.
I've lived off the path more or less for the past 18 years, and raised 4 children, wheat really helped a lot, a whole lot.
IMO everyone should take those simple and cheap measures to insure thier well being no matter what happens. Confucious say, "never hurt to take precautions". I agree.
I really don't expect y2k to become a life threatening problem, I don't expect an earthquake, nor war, nor epidemic, nor tsunami, nor solar flare ( I'm putting heat resistant reflective aluminum siding on top of my boat. ) but I've found that when you are on your own it's up to you to come up with an awnser to whatever happens. And if you don't, thats that.

I had some trouble finding my way back to Kitco last week. I was asked for a user name, password. One of those things where you have to shut down the computer to get out of. I at first thought I was being froze out, for something I said? Hard to figure since I'm ALWAYS civil. I bought a bunch of mounties from Kitco too, the reason why was this forum which I enjoy very much. I think we are going to have a problem down the line, the way Kitco behaved regarding me was very very cavalier.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:33 - ID#255284)
somewhere in the stars
I enjoy reading your posts, your last one reminded me of a series of books called "The Uplift Wars" by Stephen Brin. A sapient race, "uplifts" a client non-sapient race to sapience on the condition of indenture for 100,000 years. After that period that client can find another race to uplift. This was apparently the modus operandi of the Universes until the inconceivable happened: Humanity ( the wolflings ) uplifted itself ( together with whales, the stellar navigators and chimpanzees, the engineers ) and caused havoc amongst the sentient beings of the universe.

However, I am puzzled by your optimistic assumptions in this exerpt:

I also optimistic because because I am pretty sure that we are not alone in the Universe. Given this premise, if the Universe was filled with warlike creatures, we would have been overrun long ago.

Puzzled because: the universe is a big place, humanity until the domestication of plants c 10,000 years ago was very thin on the ground, until 6,000 years ago had no history & no metalurgy. How long ago was the first radio signal sent into the ther? Not long enough to have passed out of our more immediate stellar neighbourhood, I'd have thought. Not long enough for any star faring race to be aware of us. Even voyager has only been away just over 20 years. Didn't that marvelous craft contain a GOLD disc ( for BART ) directing alien crittures towards us tasty fleshy squashy things? Voyager still hasn't got beyond our solar system, not sure where it is now.

My next post is about silver & gold bimetallism

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:36 - ID#43352)
The guy on the train car sees himself as standin still. When he makes
the measusrement he sees the light departing from him at the speed
of light. Both the newtonions and the relativists would agree on that.

The newtoinion abserver on the ground believes he would see the car going away from himat V and the light going away from him at c+v.

The relatavist observer believes he wou;ld see the light going away from
him at C and the car moving at some speed v' which is less than the v
which the newtonion guy on the car seems to think he is going

experiments have shown the newtonion guys to be wrong

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:37 - ID#255151)

Sorry about your friend. I think one of the problems in nailing Clinton is that the whole damned executive branch is rotting with corruption. If he goes, then he'll take a good portion of it down with him. I am thinking the only thing big enough to do that is an economic event that frightens people.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:37 - ID#93232)
You remind me that we live in a "therapeutic culture" where others are to be made responsible for how one feels. Reno blows up a building in Texas, then someone doesn't like it & they blow up a building in OK City. Both are tragedies: one perpetrator in jail, the other in office. Dress it up and you can call it history

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:38 - ID#27341)
One second event.
Two thousand million years, or has it always existed? The universe. Great minds of mankind in countless studies, calculations,theories,self indulgence,self importance. Mankind, a grain of sand on the beach of the universe, a second in infinite time of existence.
Star-Trek in the mind, never to leave, never to exist.
Man, One eecond on the universal clock.
He should have been Two or,,,


(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:38 - ID#401460)
``Mr. Clinton, sir,.." Heston

6/6/98 -- 5:31 PM
Heston snipes at President Clinton during NRA speech.

``Mr. Clinton, sir, America did not trust you with our health care system. America did
not trust you with gays in the military. We did not trust you with our 21-year-old
daughters, and we sure, Lord, don't trust you with our guns.''

More than 40,000 NRA members attended the convention, headlined ``The Second
Amendment, America's First Freedom,'' which ends Wednesday.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:44 - ID#187218)
Gollum ,,, agreed ,,, BUT one caveat ,,,,, V == V' when newtonian observer and car/light source is
almost perpendicular ( say 89-91 degrees ) ,,,

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:47 - ID#255284)
Apologise if this is "on topic"

The problems associated with bimetallism are often ignored at kitco, in favour of an almost dogmatic assertion that bimetallism is an essential cornerstone to this blight of goldbuggery from which so many of us suffer. I present a couple of quotes and a couple of comments about bimetallism in the hope of precipitating some discussion and questioning on some of the assumptions of our shared belief in the value of precioussss.

Apart from the vast political hurdles that must be overcome before gold on its own or with silver becomes by decree or popular choice, real money once again, there is also the problem of Greshams law.

What follows is one response to William Jennings Bryans famous cross of gold speach of 1896. You will all recall that the official Democrat line was to demand the free and unlimited coinage of both gold and silver at the present legal ratio of 16 to 1...

First a link to the Cross of Gold Speach.

From Rosenthal, Eric, Gold! Gold! Gold! - The Johannesburg Gold Rush

..Thus in the very influential North American Review, the Honourable R D Mahany wrote, The moment the fee and unlimited coinage of silver at the rate of 16 to 1 is adopted, that moment in all markets of the world our silver dollar will be rated, not at its stamp value, but a its real value of 52 or 52 cents. Sixteen ounces of silver are worth only about on-half an ounce of gold, and hence our silver dollar, at the ration of 16 to 1, will be worth only about one-half a gold dollar. Every man who has a dollar in gold will keep it, if he can pay his debts with a silver dollar worth only half as much as a gold dollar. This will withdraw gold from circulation here; and gradually all our gold - about $59 million in bullion - will cross the Atlantic to pay off foreign obligations redeemable in that metal. The withdrawal of our gold coin ( aggregating $620 million ) now in circulation would shrink our currency to the extent of one-third....Depositors in banks would demand the payment of the deposits in gold. Runs of these institutions would cause 50 percent of them to close their doors.

Next, from Gold Polaris

We run into the same problem with any monetary system built around a reference point composed of a mixture or "basket" of commodities. In September 1987, Treasury Secretary James Baker addressed the annual meeting of the IMF and recommended a reform of the international monetary system that would fix a "reference point" for central banks around a "basket of commodities, including gold." Once again, we get back to an imperfect, wobbly unit of account. When there are only two commodities in the basket, as we had in the United States during the bi-metalic era, Gresham's Law takes over and bad money drives out good. That is, one commodity will always be more plentiful than the other, and it will be the one chosen to pay debt and taxes. The scarce commodity will be held back. This was the basis of William Jennings Bryan's complaint about the "cross of gold," a reference to the Gold Standard Act of 1873 that restored the pre-Civil War gold parity at $20.67 per ounce, but which ignored the pre-war gold/silver ratio. The debtors who flocked to Bryan's cause in the monetary deflation that followed wished to pay their debts and taxes in cheap silver rather than dear gold. For this reason, it is not likely that we will see "baskets" of commodities or currencies again. 


Some other things to ponder:

I understand that the relative abundances of Ag and Au are but one factor to be taken into account, I have a table that I posted some time ago here that states that silver is about 20 times more abundant on earth than gold. When one considers how much silver has been mined and lost that ratio of 16 to 1 looks more and more accurate.

With the Gold/Silver ratio about 55 that means either 55 oz of silver will be equivalent to one ounce of gold coin. OR a realignment of that ratio. In that case will silver increase and/or gold decrease in value?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 21:51 - ID#93232)
It's not just the executive branch that's rotting with corruption. A century ago, if your barn caught fire, your neighbors would come over & rebuild it. Now, they ask you if you've got insurance and shake their finger at you if you don't. What's going on with Clinton reflects us all to some extent: the love of money.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:02 - ID#373403)
LGB, I'm calling you out! Admit you are not privy to all things going on at Loral!
From tomorrows Chicago Tribune:


Loral scientist
vowed to flx
China's rockets

WASHINGTON-The scientist at the center of an investigation of whether two U.S. companies improperly helped China improve its rockets told the Chinese in 1996 that he would do everything he could to make their rockets the most reliable in the industry.

Wah Lim, a Chinese-born American citizen, was a senior vice president and engineer at a unit of Loral Space and Communications when he wrote a cordial letter to China Aerospace Corp. in April 1996, two weeks before a technical review that he oversaw was provided to the Chinese company without U.S. government permission and contrary to Loral policies.

Federal officials are investigating whether the review, an analysis of a Chinese rocket launch failure that destroyed a Loral satellite, violated export control laws and damaged national security by giving the Chinese information that would enable them to improve their missile program.

The investigation Caused Justice Department prosecutors in February to oppose President Clinton's approval for China to launch another Loral satellite.

Loral officials insist that the unauthorized and perhaps illegal disclosure to the Chinese was just a mistake.

Lim's letter, in which he promised to figure out why the Chinese rocket had exploded two months earlier, and other internal Loral documents portray a corporate mind-set to fix a serious problem of concern to the American company and the Chinese.

Since many of Loral's satellites are launched in China, improving the reliability of the country's rocket program was in the company's financial interest.

China Aerospace launches rockets with commercial and military applications, and improvements in the ability to launch rockets accurately and reliably could aid not only its business of sending communication satellites into space but also its testing and delivering of nuclear weapons from ballistic missiles.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:05 - ID#255151)
strat 21:51

Fully agree. People don't want to weaned off of Federal largesse. As long as the money keeps coming, they will hold their noses and overlook the crimes. It's an addiction that will never be given up willingly.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:06 - ID#43349)
Today we have a different sort of Gresham's law. This time
our basket is full of the world'd different sorts of currencies

Instead of bad money driving out good we have most favored
currency driving out the weaker.

Same church. Different pew.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:08 - ID#34857)
WetGold (Does ANOTHER ...)

Got run off.

Seems he didn't measure up.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:09 - ID#335190)
Create Drug-Free Societies @ Imagine the number world wide taking legal drugs.WHY DRUGS EH!
Leaders call drug war a failure, urge UN to rethink policy

UNITED NATIONS ( AP ) -- Saying the drug war has caused more harm than drug abuse itself, prominent world figures are calling for "a truly open dialogue" to shift drug control policies from punishment to public health issues.

"We believe that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself," the letter said. "Human rights are violated, environmental assaults perpetrated and prisons inudated with hundreds of thousands of drug violators."

The letter said scarce resources are being diverted "on ever more expensive interdiction efforts" while "realistic proposals to reduce drug-related crime, disease and death" are abandoned "in favor of rhetorical proposals to create drug-free societies."

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:13 - ID#401460)
El Nino & Alligators in Ohio

They have spotted alligators in the Little Miami River.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:15 - ID#401460)

He measured up, others didn't.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:20 - ID#335190)
USofA & Britain want in on the sport of killing @ Russia & Yugoslavia may accomodate the sport.
More shelling, more dead in Kosovo

PRISTINA, Yugoslavia ( CP ) -- Serb gunners shelled villages in Kosovo with heavy artillery Saturday and fighting flared along the province's southern border with Macedonia.

More than 10,000 Kosovo Albanian refugees fled to northern Albania this week.

Diplomats said Saturday that Britain and the United States want the Security Council to authorize force against Yugoslavia for its attacks on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.

A similar phrase was used in November 1990 when the United States succeeded in getting the 15-member body to approve its military action in the Gulf to expel Iraqi troops from Kuwait.

Russia, an ally of Yugoslavia and its president, Slobodan Milosevic, has said any NATO operation in Kosovo had to be authorized by the 15-member council where it exercises a veto. Moscow may well block any resolution authorizing force.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:26 - ID#255151)
Alligators in Ohio, You Say

That gives me a Y2K idea. An alligator farm! Build a moat ( good water source, BTW ) and put gators in it. Better than guard dogs and a good source for shoes and purses. Gator stew sounds delicious as well. The teeth would look stunning on a Gold necklace.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:27 - ID#255217)
silver plate, your 19:01
You set forth in your post a facet of survival in the animal kingdom on this planet that has perplexed and disturbed me for most of my life ( a good many years ) . I STILL am not able to reconcile survival of one species at the expense of another in my own mind. The attribution of devine origin to the existence of man complicates my thinking on the subject.

If man was a consequence of evolution, it would greatly simplify my dilemma, but I have NEVER bought into that solution. Devine origin to me seems most likely, but this carries with it moral precepts that I find disturbing in a savage world. Many people seem to have no problem with this, but when questioned, their answers are simplistic and not well thought out IMO. Thanks for expressing thoughts which I have wondered ever crossed the minds of others.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:30 - ID#233379)

Correction HighRise -- Those gator sightings are in the Great Miami River, which runs from Dayton, south to Middletown thru Hamilton!, OH. into the Ohio River in western Hamilton County just west of Cincinnati. WLW 700 has a $1000 reward -- dead or alive. Contact Bill Cunningham at the BIG ONE in Mt Adams.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:39 - ID#347235)
Thanks for the kind words I knew we had a common ground to speak of, the Army should have never let go of the original Army Air Corps, THEN they would not have turned into a bunch of sniveling cry babies, YES? As I said I would still go, but if the Army Kept me in my present health they would really be scraping the bottom of the barrell, BUT I would die trying if required.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:43 - ID#287186)
Aurator, re your things to ponder on Gold/Silver ratio
On Sat Jun 06 1998 21:47 you stated "When one considers how much silver has been mined and lost that ratio of 16 to 1 looks more and more accurate. With the Gold/Silver ratio about 55 that means either 55 oz of silver will be equivalent to one ounce of gold coin. OR a realignment of that ratio. In that case will silver increase and/or gold decrease in value?

If we assume that SILVER is less manipulated and has a price more realistic of its supply and demand than does GOLD. Then, heresy and blasphemy - may I be forced to drink hemlock? Even if silver can struggle up to $12 - Gold must eventually go down to perhaps $200!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:43 - ID#401460)

Thanks for the correction.


(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:44 - ID#335190)
FYI @ Hopi Prophecies ( There other First Nation's Phrophecies)

From The Beginning Of Life

To the Day of Purification

Teachings, History & Prophecies of the Hopi People

as told by the late Dan Katchongva

Sun Clan ( 1865-1972 )

Translated by Danaqyumptewa

Edited by Thomas Francis Tarbet


Time passed on, people passed on, and the prophecies of things to come were passed from mouth to mouth. The stone tablets and the rock writing of the life plan were often reviewed by the elders.

Fearfully they waited as they retold the prophecy that one day another race people would appear in their midst and claim our land as his own.

He would try to change our pattern of life. He would have a "sweet tongue" or a "fork tongue," and many good things by which we would be tempted. He would use force in an attempt to trap us into using weapons, but we must not fall for this trick, for then we ourselves would be brought to our knees, from which we might not be able to rise.

Nor must we ever raise our hand against any nation. We now call these people Bahanna.


We have teachings and prophecies informing us that we must be alert for the signs and omens which will come about to give us courage and strength to stand on our beliefs. Blood will flow. Our hair and our clothing will be scattered upon the earth.

Nature will speak to us with its mighty breath of wind. There will be earthquakes and floods causing great disasters, changes in the seasons and in the weather, disappearance of wildlife, and famine in different forms.

There will be gradual corruption and confusion among the leaders and the people all over the world, and wars will come about like powerful winds.
All of this has been planned from the beginning of creation.

We will have three people standing behind us, ready to fulfill our prophecies when we get into hopeless difficulties: The Meha Symbol ( which refers to a plant that has a long root, milky sap, grows back when cut off, and has a flower shaped like a swastika, symbolizing the four great forces of nature in motion ) , the Sun Symbol, and the Red Symbol.
Bahanna's intrusion into the Hopi way of life will set the Meha Symbol in motion, so that certain people will work for the four great forces of nature ( the four directions, the controlling forces, the original force ) which will rock the world into war. When this happens we will know that our prophecies are coming true.

We will gather strength and stand firm.


At night we were fastened together in groups of six by means of long chains. To add to our torture, soap was added to our food, which made us very sick.

When one man had to go to the outhouse all six had to go. All this time the possibility of signing certain papers was left open to those who might weaken. During this period my father, Yukiuma, was being held somewhere else so I was acting as leader.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:49 - ID#57232)
Genetic engineering, Human Genome project
WetGold: You bring up some interesting points. I agree with you that the Human Genome project has significance far in excess of just looking at the genes that are active in most of us. Our DNA is far more complex than it needs to be, and probably much more diverse than we realize. Most of the DNA is silent ( non-transcriptional ) as far as we know. It will take a generation to decode the message, even partially. 3x10**9 bits of information, even if much of it is repetitive.

One question I have never been able to understand is there is a major discrepancy between the diversity of the human genome, and our apparent species evolutionary stability. Given the low mutation rate that we are currently showing, why is there so much genetic diversity, and so much apparently silent DNA? We apparently do not need it.

I have a disturbing answer -- and that is that our baseline genetic code is adapted to a much higher mutation rate than out current one -- hence out species environmental stress level is usually much higher than it is now. That would fit with the drop in cosmic rays around 1700 AD or so, and the explosion of our population since that time. The alternative -- that we have already been genetically engineered -- is unlikely, but cannot be ruled out completely.

On genetic engineering -- I know nature can do anything we can do much more efficiently than we can. I doubt that the Nazis really advanced human knowledge any where nearly as much as the last 40 years with our advances in molecular biology. I find their experiments shocking -- and we now know unneccessary. It is actually amazing now that we can visualize proteins in 3-d -- making our own select proteins, as well as using the 3-d NMR Nuclear Overhauser effect to visualize proteins in solution. I am somewhat apprehensive that our genetic engineering will get out of control, similar to what happened with weapons of mass destruction. Fortunately, so far we do not have the skills to do any real damage, and I can only hope that we can mature as a species before any real damage can be done. I think the real threat to the human race will come from over population, and weapons of mass destruction, not genetic engineering. ( Exception -- genetically engineered weapons of mass destruction ) . If we do not mature as a species fairly soon, we will may not have to worry about the consequences of genetic engineering.

We do have to be careful with one aspect of genetic engineering, and that is what we are doing with crops. I think it is great that we have done what we have done -- corn with its built - in restance to certain organisms, tomatoes with anti rot properties -- other crops with higher yields, or resistance to herbicides. But -- by selling all of these genetically engineering crops we increase the risk of reducing biodiversity, and a sudden crop failure, due to some other unexpected events not foreseen. Fortunately some wiser, more realistic individuals are saving seeds of as many crop species as they can so they will not vanish off the face of the earth. We may need them some day. Eventually, we will be able to make a DNA databank of all species on earth -- but not yet. Imagine all species on earth in a single freezer! But if we have trouble finding a safe place for nuclear waste, imagine the trouble we would have in trying to find a safe place to store all that DNA at liquid nitrogen temperatures. Perhaps we should choose one of the poles of the moon for that.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:53 - ID#401460)
The Queen

Check this out,
Office of the President
Office of the First Lady
Office of the Vice President
Office of Mrs. Gore

Office of the First Lady? Is thia an elected office now? Or is it a case that Hillary doesn't want to be labeled Office of Mrs. Slick Willy BJ Clinton?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 22:55 - ID#287186)
JTF, Aurator, Downunder, Gollum, re our species
Just some thoughts in regard to these questions. Given humanity's proclivity to fouling our own nest and being intolerant of different skin color - let alone really different alien physiologies and anatomies -- Alien species should quarantine us and try to get the other various races adhere to the "prime directive". When we are mature enough to tolerate the existence of beings equal or superior to ourselves. When we can treat these others as our equals THEN we may be considered ready for overt and official first contact.

re: seti. Interstellar travel demands FTL ships and communications. If they are using some kind of subspace, FTL carrier - we could not hear them.

Aurator: Thank you so much for pointing me to the series of books called "The Uplift Wars" by Stephen Brin. I must add them to my reading list.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:00 - ID#255284)
If I called the wrong number, why did you answer the phone? James Thurber
my mistake, his name is David Brin.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:07 - ID#373284)
STUDIO_R, went outside and puked all over the lawn that these
words you have written were seen by my eyes...tears...Tom Horn and I are about to go outside and NEVER FORGIVE PASTY FACED BASTARDS...TOM SAYS HE HAS A BEER FOR YA...............................I told him friends from Alaska will continue to bring FRESH ice until you arrive...NAMASTE'

Tom just said its time for that beer,........let it go.......we await will be fresh.................night......

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:08 - ID#255151)
8.4 Ricter Earthquake in the Baltic

Just heard that an 8.4 seismic event occured in the Baltic area. Epicenter in northwest Russia.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:15 - ID#57232)
To -- 'puzzled' (I feel like Dear Abby tonight!)
aurator: Looks like you are the only one 'on topic' tonight! I will address your question about why 'no visitors'. The reasoning goes like this: 'Since we have not been visited by an alien species during recorded human times, and there has been no response to any messages we have sent out -- either intentionally or unintentionally' there must therefore be no life in the universe -- except us'

No offense, but I find that statement as ludicrous as the statement that the earth is the center of the universe. The is no way that humans could be the center of the living universe. The universie is just to big for that. I would suggest reading Carl Sagan's book 'Small blue planet'. I have never read a stronger argument, readily accessible to all, infavor of life elsewhere in the Universe. Cleverly disquised, though, as Carl Sagan worked for the US government and always emphatically denied extraterrestrial life. I never figured out how he got 'Contact' out.

I will argue differently. I say they are already here, and have been for at least hundreds of thousands of years. If intelligent, interstellar life exists in this universe, it has very likely existed somewhere for millions of years. If so, we have been visited many times, and either the memory of it has been lost, or the visitors want to be discrete. Did you know that unsual craft sightings are far more common in certain countries such as Mexico, and other South American countries? American sightings are ridiculed very strongly. However, I have a book written by NASA engineer Paul Hill on my desk titled 'Unconventional Flying objects' with a foreward by Edgar Mitchell -- the Apollo 14 astronaut, who said in a foreward for the book:

'Paul Hill has done a masterful job ferreting out the basic science and technology behind the elusive UFO characteristics...., Perhaps this book will help bring solid consideration for making all that is known about extraterrestrial craft publically available.' It all began when Paul Hill saw a UFO himself.

aurator: Why should they bother answering our pleas for communication in our SETI project, etc, if they are already here? Whoever the visitors are probably know as much about us as we do. Imagine the listening devices they must have! It would put our NSA to shame.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:20 - ID#210235)
Thanks for the pointers. You should know that Kitco was locking lots of us out of one place or another, and asking for passwords, etc. I, too, had to restart my machine. Some days, you couldn't even look at the Mountie ad! Please don't take it personal, it was such a universal problem, I'm sure no offense was intended.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:22 - ID#255217)
To my knowledge NONE of the consequences of relativity theory has ever been demonstrated to be wrong. And yet, the quantum guys, as you said, have DOUBTS. I run hot and cold in my pursuit of greater understanding of what is current knowledge because so much seems to be conjecture and is yet unproven. But it does seem to me that at sometime in the future, it WILL be demonstrated that velocities greater than light exist. But the revelation may manifest itself in strange ways and involve concepts that are foreign to our current way of thinking. Quantum theory is STILL pretty strange, even to the guys that work with it every day.

Which great British astronomer said, "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, but is stranger than we CAN imagine"?

There a LOTS or really clever, super smart guys working on reconcilling relativity with quantum theory, but the mathematics is horrendous and they keep coming up with lots of infinity values All results thus far have been less than satisfactory. Then there's string theory and ten and even twenty- four dimension concepts that really boggle my mind. But they will keep trying. What we need is a REAL, honest to goodness genius to come along. The kind I'm talking about comes along about once in a century, they say. Gauss, Newton, Einstein; someone of that caliber. Maybe, then.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:24 - ID#259282)
Dammed aussies. Never could fight and have noooooooo idea how to drink beer!
Damn bunch of criminals. My brother in law is in Sydney and he is trying to train them no avail. Wimps all of them. They don"t know how to take an insult.If they learned how to drink they might have a chance but they don't know how to fight.Never did! Aussies are just Brits who never learned to sit down when they pee.Whoa ...snuck in a compliment... won't happen again. Better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy! Off to bed.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:26 - ID#57232)
Must log off!
squirrel: That's what I could not remember. The term is 'prime directive'. There are several things that must happen before we would be acceptable. First, we would need to be able to accept alien species without freaking out. EG, all the 'alien' movies. Secondly, our culture would have to be sufficiently technologically advanced that we would not be totally swallowed up by the alien culture. Just think about what the Europeans did to the American indians, or to the native Hawaiians. We are not ready on this one, I think. This may be what the 'zero point energy' is about. Still just a twinkle in the eye so far. Thirdly, it makes sense for our visitors not to shake our hands until we have come face to face with our baser destructive instincts. Will we blow ourselves up or not? If we do, it is possible our visitors would say 'oh well' and start over. Hopefully, they will help us a bit more than that.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:28 - ID#259282)
Explain Einstein's theory of relativity or show me your tits.
Do not say on your first date.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:30 - ID#259282)
Beam me up Scotty there's no intelligent life here....
Only goldbugs!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:32 - ID#255284)
This is ANOTHER foodie post heh heh
you misunderstand me, squire. I am taken by the logic of the Green Bank formula of F D Drake ( he was deeply involved in the Voyager project I've already mentioned today ) that demonstrates to my satisfaction the certainty that life exists elsewhere in the universe. No, my point only was on the assertion that this life will have benign intentions, and not want to turn us human beans into shiskebab.

I'm not sure how to replicate the formula without subscripts, perhaps someone else can help

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:36 - ID#373403)
Wow, U.S. Treasury considering a gold colored coin with a female on the face.
What kind of insideous anti-gold propaganda is this?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:37 - ID#255151)
Map of Seismic Event in the Baltic Region

Coordinates 68 N 33E. Near Minsk in Belarus.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:37 - ID#259282)
Ok .. you are standing in Jersey and you can travel at 143000 miles an hour and you head towards the
west. in an hour you are back in Jersey.... Ok... now you can do the same thing only at the speed of light. You are back in Jersey about a year ago. I don't know who would want to go to Jersey but THOUGHTS! Are you from Jersey? Go...GOLD?

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:41 - ID#57232)
aurator: I am humbled -- I underestimated you. It could happen to us. We would be at their mercy if it happened. The technology gap would be too great, and they would be like gods with their weapons.

My best argument is that they had hundreds of thousands of years to do this if they wanted to. Why wait?

There are other disturbing possibilities like we might not be smart enough-yet. But why be discrete? They could just put us in pens and engineer whatever they wanted. Another possibility is that we are a grand experiment, like an aquarium. I hope they are better at it than I was with those guppies.

The best argument is they have left us alone -- no idealism needed. Amazing, isn't it? Perhaps there are 'friendly' aliens out there after all.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:44 - ID#344308)

may as well throw in some nostra....

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:46 - ID#344308)


don't forget ....damus

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:48 - ID#344308)

read on...

every cult there ever was/is........and more...

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:49 - ID#45173)
robnoel: requirement to report of cash transactions
That got you worried? I've worked recently with two companies that make products based on different kinds of biometric technologies, one voice-to-text and the other face recognition. I learned about many applications of their products, but these struck me as chilling.

- In most states in the US, the image you give to the state for the purose of identification ( e.g., Reg. of Motor Vehicles ) can and is legally sold for storage in corporate databases for other applications. For example, when you enter certain casinos, the security cameras take your picture and compare your image to a database of 30,000 know professional gamblers. The process takes about 3 seconds and is 98% accurate, producing false positives 2% of the time, never producing a false negative. If you match, you are greeted by employees of the casino who verify your identity and show you the door. The technlogy is also used at Mr. Cash machines in some parts of the US for authentication purposes.

- The security cameras in Heathrow airport among others help security personnel look for bombs. They start with a baseline digital image, an area empty of people. If an object is introduced that does not move withn a certain period of time, the system notices by comparing the baseline and periodic images, and alerts personnel to investigate the object. This is a good application of a this technolgy if you don't like bombs in airports. But it's not hard to imagine an application that infringes on your privacy.

- Without the usual requirement to show probable cause in order to justify surveilance, law enforcement can legally monitor telephone communications of thousands of citizens for the frequency of occurance of certain keywords for the purpose of identifying individuals who may be breaking the law. Only when an individual has been identified and an investigtion is underway is it necessary to show probable cause for further surveilance of that individual. Ironically, the precedent for this rule is the use of radar to catch speeding motorists, a form of electronic surveilance without probable cause.

Makes you long for the days when one bought stuff with coins rather than bits?


(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:50 - ID#57232)
Sorry Bart -- I'll be good for the rest of tonight!
G'Nite all! An and especially good morning to all of our friends downunder. Hope the Australian dollar behaves itself.

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:51 - ID#344308)

and a 'must read' for those who
want to 'see' the future, and
its' effects on certain commodities....yes, gold tam bien!

(Sat Jun 06 1998 23:56 - ID#43349)
Oh, there are certainly "things" that go faster than
light. But they are only of two types to my knowledge.

1 ) Geometric immaterial effects. An example would be to
point a flashlight at one edge of a gigantic theater
screen a light year wide and a light year away from
us. Turn the light on and sweep it to point at the
other edge. Now wait one year. If it took you a
second to sweep sweep the beam, the spot will cross
from one side to the other in a second. The spot thus
travels the edge to edge distance of one light year
in less than a second. Some CRT tubes have a beam
trace faster than the speed of light. Some phase
waves travel down a wave guide at a velocity greater
than the speed of light.

2 ) The other one needs a name before I can talk about it.
It's a quantuum mechanical sort of thing. Let us call
it truth ( for reasons which shall become obvious later ) .
Let us say that a light year away from us a star suddenly
goes supernova. We will know nothing of it and go on
with our ordinary daily affairs for a year before the
reality of the event reaches us. But as soon as the
event has occurred it is true here that we will be
seeing the reality of it in a year. In fact it is true
througout the universe that the event has occurred.
the quantuum mechanists would say the wave function
associated with the event has collapsed throughout the
universe. If two photons are created as a pair their
up-down spins are related. That is if one is spin up
the other is spin down. If one measures the spin of
one the spin of the other is then known also.
Up until the moment the measurement is made, however
the spin is indeterminate. Just like up until the
moment the star goes super nove the possiblity of it
happening is indeterminate or the fate of Shroedinger's
cat. We can choose how to measure the photon so as to
force the outcome of our measurement to be at any
phase angle we choose. This automatically determines
the phase angle of the other photon no matter how
far away it is. The "truth" of how the measurement
was made propagates instantaneously ( faster than
light ) .