Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:01 - ID#384350)
@SDR, in Addition to possible Japanese Sale of US Treasuries
What happens if/when the US is forced to cough up $18 Billion to give to Russia so that it can pay its Usurers? Won't that will dump $18 Billion of freshly created US currency on the Global Market. Couple that with Japanese CB sales of US Treasuries, and we would likely see a weakening effect on the Greenback.

I see the turning points of the US Dollar in recent years as
one: when it loaned $50 Billion to Mexico, creating a glut of Dollars and thus weakening the USD. Remember the Yen at 80 to the dollar.

two: When the loan was repaid ( mexican debt substituted for yankee debt ) the dollars went back into the treasury, shrinking the glut of Dollars. The USD really started rising from then.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:03 - ID#316232)
I'm not sure what you have in your portfolio, but 30 of 33 gold funds went up today. STIVX will go up tomorrow.
Almost every gold stock went up, too.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:03 - ID#342376)
@ Gianni
I am surprised that there is little talk about that late move in the POG. The reason is very unclear. My gut says everything is starting to converge. Clinton is going down and so is the dollar and US Markets. Throw in the ECB announcement and you've got potential for a truly explosive move. It's our turn to bathe in the Golden Sunlight.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:06 - ID#57232)
Logging off
SDRer: I didn't know AG's seat on the BIS board was so recent. Perhaps he is a not-so-cooperative member, and is not really part of the BIS inner circle. We certainly know the traditional adversarial role between the US/IMF and the BIS. AG, despite his gold bug history, is still going to follow the US party line most of the time -- as far as I can tell.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:08 - ID#316232)
POG move
CRAZYTIMES.. The move in gold was led by the COMEX, not London or S. Africa. Without confirmation tomorrow ( more than likely ) , the rally will fizzle.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:10 - ID#253418)
A better picture
Today's action in gold and silver certainly paints a better picture. The XAU will now challenge its 80 break down point. Weakness in the dollar, especially given the universal bet that its going to rise forever dispite horrendous fundlementals, coupled with anything out of the EURO meeting re: gold reserves that is postive and we'll see the price of gold at $325 during the summer. Won't that surprise all the cyclists and seasonalists - it will if it happens, of course.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:14 - ID#267344)
Japan HAS to cooperate with the US. The US is the only thing keeping a balance of power in Asia. With out the US, China takes Taiwan and control of the South China Sea - that body of water which hosts the life line for Japan. If China becomes a powerful sea going nation before it succumbs to Democracy, that would be very bad. Japan/US relations are love/hate, but they will remain dependant on eachother for some time to come.
- c

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:19 - ID#286234)
Thanks for the links for lurker "Duke".

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:22 - ID#238422)
Question for Kitco Bar and Grill Management:

How drinks are going?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:27 - ID#286249)
Strong USD--Weak Yen?


Chicago Fed figures from 1983...just a nanosecond ago! {:- )
TWD closed around 100.22 on 6/2/98 if memory serves.

In 1983, one dollar brought 2 1/2 DM! Two hundred + yen! Those were the days? BIS thinks USD is tooo strong? Poor ole USD...
Good night!

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:34 - ID#384350)
SDRer, EJ, EuroBacking
Maybe there was a hidden message in, 20-30%? It definitely is surprising to see the BIS making statements like that. Maybe they are worried about what happens to the Dollar when the tides turn. The higher it goes, the harder it falls.

The Euro countries still have massive govt debt with few exceptions. The Euro may start out as having a strong gold backing, but I would expect the amount of gold backing each Euro to be dilluted as time goes by. When interest on Sovereign debt starts making up a significant portion of GDP, then there is trouble. Maybe these central banks will find it in the kindness of their hearts to forgive the debt owed to it by its debtor nation hosts, and then they could just start anew.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:50 - ID#45173)
Gianni Dioro: we shall see about the largess of creditor nations
when their unemployed begin to complain in earnest.



(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:51 - ID#27341)
afternoon all,thanks again.
and hat offf to JusticeTruthFairness,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:56 - ID#45173)
clone: one more thing before I turn in
Recall Clinton's clever pre-first term suggestion that the US save $ by allowing Japan to provide military security for Asia? Japan's neighbors had a friggin' heart attack. Maybe that's the US rejoiner to the Japanese threat to sell treasuries for gold: Fine. Then you can provide for your own security and China will begin invasion forthwith. Harsh but true.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 00:57 - ID#307271)
Preacher's query

Thanks Preacher for such a cogent question. Easily I could say that the newspapers and the signs of the times are in order. Just as easily, I could put the question to youward, Why do you believe that the price of gold is going up? But my barometer is not that of a man. I then refer to the timeless barometer of my Father. The signs are clearly demarked in Matthew 28 as reiterated below. However, the clearest touchstone is given by Paul in Second Thessalonians: The giving up of the Temple of God to the Ungodly ( second referencesome believe this is a reference to the physical antichrist only; I believe it is twofold in nature ) . Never have I seen and heard so many people who have displaced the rightful position of the living God to deceptive spirits: They either believe they are evolving into gods themselves or they have given themselves over to other ungodly spirits. Lastly, the first caution by our Lord below is directed toward deception in the apparent Body: the falling away is occuring as we speak.

Eschatologically, these scriptures could be for any time or circumstance. But you and I can know the truth because the Spirit of Truth lives within us.

Matthew 28:

Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various pl8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

2 Thessalonians:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Temple of God is of course our own bodies which was made as that of Adam to Commune with the Living God.

Scientists use radiography or Carbon 14 as a clock. Awaiting Christians use the nation of Israel as God's clock-of-times. In a slight of inversion, the clock is striking 11:55. Be ready or be in unbelief like the rest. Watch November 1998. I know you were taught that "prophesy isn't for today". You will change your mind in the days to come.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:07 - ID#210114)
My maths was fine John Disney
Taken from

South African companies averaged cash costs of just over $300 per ounce in 1997, compared to
$216 per ounce for U.S. companies, $221 per ounce for Canadian firms, and $261 per ounce for
Australian miners.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:08 - ID#384350)
World Cup 98
I mentioned earlier that the world cup trophy is made of real gold, and is highly guarded. The last one was stolen, and some people suspect that it was melted down. I doubt it though.

For you gamblers out there, I like Germany to win at 7/1. The Germans are always strong and have nerves of steel when taking penalty shots.

For a longshot, I took Norway at 50/1 to win and 25/1 for second place. Another outsider could be Yugoslavia at 25/1.

I also have Romania to win group G at 3/1. Columbia at 4/1 is also a good play. England, the big favorite 8/15 is in terrible form, and I consider this the toughest group.

The opening match between Brasil and Scotland on Wednesday should be an exciting match. Well anytime Brasil plays it's usually exciting. Brazil at 2/5 offers no value. I'll bet the draw at 5/2. Scotland aren't a bad side, and team Brasil isn't happy about Romario being unjustly axed from the squad. Ronaldo, though a great raw talent, does not have the experience of Romario who will be missed.

The big showdown though is Sun, June 21 in Lyon where the Great Satan takes on the Evil Empire, US vs. Iran. The US no longer has former coach Bora Multinovich and is a much weaker side than the team that played 4 years ago before home sellout crowds. Also key goalscorer Eric Wynalda is bothered by an injury. Even though the US appears to be the better side, could you imagine what the streets of Teheran would be like if Iran took this one. Iran will play to win and they look tempting at 4/1.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:18 - ID#227168)
Back from the Woods of sleep-and Goodnight
Newtron Bomb ---And Eb the lost and last so-called investor Justice ---And so the ages of time SEE the Abysses Away to see pure nothing.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:22 - ID#252150)
Skip@Your AU stocks went down because you own sh!t
Kinross +7% ABX +5%

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:23 - ID#255284)
Mole - Floating Bimetallism Help needed for the para-dim & Gram Parsons
Thank you for your response : Mon Jun 08 1998 22:38 on floating silver:gold convertibilities. This problem has been largely ignored at kitco, what would be the relative values of silver and gold if silver and gold were once again monetary metals? I have been wondering, with our current economic paradim ( sic ) , that pure ideology demands a floating convertibility between silver and gold. That is, the free market will determine their relative values. However, this introduces uncertainty of value in these metals as money. One year maybe 30 silver kitcos = 1 gold kitco, the next 45 silver kitcos = 1 gold kitco.

Some time ago there was a thread here on the Dirham and Dinar, I don't have the reference at hand, but I recall there was a fixed convertibility ratio one to the other. So, following Greshams law, the "cheaper" ( bad ) will drive out the "good"?

Isn't there an inherent problem in bimetallism? That is the relative abundance of these two Precious metals, and/or the relative prices, fluctuates? Therefore bimetallism is an inherently unstable system?

What am I not understanding?

Anyone help my para-dim thinking here?

Gram Parsons
His 2 excellent solo albums, GP & Grievous Angel are available on a double CD, I have recently found the comparatively rare Gram Parsons and the Fallen Angel Band Live in 1973 also on CD. This is from their tour promoting those two Albums just before GP's death.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:27 - ID#373284)
aurtator, Namaste' just dropped in...hope this to run...festivities...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:29 - ID#373284)
aurator, Namaste'
spelling, eh...back to the festivities...Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...


(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:29 - ID#255284)
Golden Sports Trivia
Before you came onboard, I asked this question, noone claimed the prize then, perhaps because I didn't offer one;-^ ) . I gave the answer on-line, so no fair telling anyone, ok auric?

Soccer was once, and only once, an Olympic Game. Which country won the Gold ( real gold ) medal?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:30 - ID#252150)
The Hatt@Yeah right!! the Jap businessmen have great business acumen
Bought Pebble Beach G.C. for 800 bil & sold it back for 400 bil. Bought numerous office towers all over U.S. & ended up selling them back at 30-50% losses. Ditto with the studio that Sony bought.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:34 - ID#267344)
Aurator - bimetallism
Your reasoning - "One year maybe 30 silver kitcos = 1 gold kitco, the next 45 silver kitcos = 1 gold kitco."

so, spend which ever metal is "less valuable" by ratio. I have a feeling more silver would be issued during the years it is in less demand. You don't have to designate value - just go with it, man! Pure, untampered market forces. That would be my solution to the concern you suggest.
- c

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:37 - ID#227168)
The Waters are Exploding in our minds
Zeke ---A time for ponderousness --A thought of substance Good Night ---Away to see Obliteration

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:39 - ID#252150)
Canadian soldier to have sex change operation
I was in the Cdn forces for 23 years & all I can say is that she/it will
doubtless be better looking & an improvement on the bunch of ugly dykes that are already in the forces. Too bad they could'nt have operations to change them into human beings.

Enough politically incorrect stuff for 1 night.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:49 - ID#255284)
Bimetallism---Cross of Gold

So let's go with market forces, okay. So with Ag:Au tipping 60:1 currently if precious monetism ocurred today 60 oz silver gets you 1 oz gold.

The point I made previously was that, I understand that the relative abundance of Silver:Gold in the earth's mantel is 20:1. Much silver is irrecoverably lost as it is an industrial metal, so the US Legislated ratio of 16:1 looks kinda right. In any event, look at the numbers, 60:1 cf 20:1. Doesn't this mean, for there to be bimetallic standard a tremendous re-rating of the relative values of silver and gold.

If the 20:1 ratio held with current Au prices, it implies a radical re-rating of silver to, say $15.00, or a re-rating of gold, at today's Ag prices to $100. ( all prices in merkan dollars - BTW today the NZ$ POG was over $600, first time for almost a year )

The point I have is that bimetalism implies a considerable tension away from the current relative Ag/Au prices. If Soros was aware of an imminent possible bimetallic remonitisation, which metal would he hold? Not the yella.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:50 - ID#207145)
Disney, goofy,
Mickey Mouse. Daffy. Soviet fighters are stolen copies. No close tolerances.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:52 - ID#384350)
Would that be Nigeria?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:53 - ID#210114)
Oz dollar 59.66 US cents

(Tue Jun 09 1998 01:57 - ID#207145)
Come out and fight,
Where are you Disney, With your offhand posts when i'm not looking
about how Russian Fighters are so serviceable. Give me a break. How much R&D went into those planes, and when will yhe next upgrade come. Hope they're good! They might have to last 50 years till the Ruble recovers.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:05 - ID#384350)
The World Cup Trophy

The new trophy is 36 cm high, made of solid 18-carat gold and weighs 4,970 grammes. The base contains two layers of semi- precious malachite. The sculptor describes his work as follows: "The lines spring out of the base, rising in spirals, stretching out to receive the world. From the remarkable dynamic tensions of the compact body of the sculpture rise the figures of two athletes at the stirring moment of victory."
The FIFA World Cup trophy cannot be won outright, since the regulations say it must remain permanently in FIFA's possession. The winning association receives a replica, not made of solid gold, but only gold-plated. The base contains room for 17 small plaques bearing the name of the winners - space enough for the World Champions up to the year 2038.

Sounds like the next global currency. They'll say its Gold, but the common folk will only get gold-plated smart cards.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:07 - ID#307271)
Mr. Diz forgot to remove the FOD ( foreign object damage ) screens from the inlets of his jet. It seems that the first stage rotor of the high bypass fanjet engine requires a relative airspeed of Mach 1.2 to perform properly. The screens kept all the nuts and bolts that had fallen off the Migs from entering the engines, but the turbulent slipsteam caused by the screens cause his jet to crashland somewhere in Lower Slobovia.
Goodnight John ! Hope you have your cyanide capsule in your ditty bag. If you can get those screens out of your inlets, sweep the taxiway and fly back to civilization.

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:12 - ID#24135)
Nothing has changed
For Spock
Your maths unchanged .. bad as ever.. You unable
Calculate average costs .. and you READ ABOUT cash
costs ..
Cash cost are meaningless .. AVERAGE COSTS determine
Ive explained this many times .. THis is the last..
Take company revenue then subtract total profit ( or
add total loss ) ... this equals total cost of company
operation .. then divide by gold production ...
This equals average costs per ounce..
See if you can do this .. find out for yourself ..
dont believe me .. I dont care ..
The fact that RSA mines on average are profitable
while most NA mines are showing losses despite their
higher hedge prices demonstrates this. RSA mines
include everything but capex in their "cash costs"
.. NA mines include as little as possible in theirs.
.. But please .. dont buy RSA mines .. Better you learn
the hard way.

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:14 - ID#24135)
Blooper and Zeke Billy Ray and Clyde ..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:15 - ID#255284)
Nope, not Nigeria, but there is probably an internet scam originating from there ready to screw goldbugs?

Another try?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:31 - ID#287186)
clone - pure unhampered market forces
'tis a wonderful dream. I too have other dreams.

I dream of miners of ore bodies of precious metals in nickel-iron asteroids. Of men and women smelting ores with the focused fury of a kilometer wide array of solar reflectors. Do any of you remember a story entitled "The Man Who Sold the Moon" or the story of a man who manufactured remote sensing evidence of PMs on the moon and thereby caused a gold rush. What better way to kick us Earth-bound stick-in-the-muds in the butt and get us moving into space.

P.S. The average concentration of Silver in the average nickel-iron asteroid {0.035ppm} is poor compared the average in Earth's crust {0.08ppm}. But the average concentration of GOLD in the average nickel-iron asteroid of 1.800ppm is 900 times that of Earth's crust's average of .002ppm.

Do not take my word for it - check out my source FWIW

Once asteroid mining or the mining of iron-nickel ore bodies on the moon comes on line, the ratio of such Silver and Gold will be 1:51 not 51:1. Transporting Gold to Earth will be neglible compared to its value per ounce. By then we will have so depleted the reserves here that both metals will be worth orders of magnitude more than they are today. But when these new Klondike fields are struck - the POG will drop like a meteorite.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:32 - ID#307271)
Goodnight Phylo. Happy soaring.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:34 - ID#384350)
Wave 5 on the Dow
I think the Dow might be making a final move up ( wave 5 ) and should weasel its way up to the 9350-9400 range over the next 2-4 weeks. It will do this as fundamentals weaken, and companies start reporting lousy earnings and charges.

Aurator, I give up on Olympic winning team. Please tell.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:38 - ID#255284)
From see to shining c
The only winners of the Olympic Gold medal for soccer.......was, ........was,.......Merka!

it's true!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:43 - ID#226327)
Earth Change Prophecies
A few days back, I posted about elders from the Hopi Nation coming on the Art bell show to talk about their prophecies. It was announced tonight that they requested to come on the show because they believe the Hopi prophecies are going to start manifesting in July. That's this July, July 1998. They will be on Monday June 15th at 8pm PDT.

Also tomorrow, June 8th at 8 pm PDT, Gordon Michael Scallion will be on the Art Bell Show giving his prophecies for earth changes coming in July and August 1998.

In any case, it seems that we will not have to wait very long to see if they are right or not.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:44 - ID#384350)
Aurator, Wha?
You talkin' Chicks?

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:50 - ID#24135)
These guys are dePRESSED..
For Zeke ..
Believe Russians will advance into Med soon. They
want Cyprus badly. They need many new R&R centers for
MIG pilots who suffer from nasty depression whenever
they have to think about F-16.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:57 - ID#287186)
The Hopi - I may believe
Scallion, though, has stretched his predictions so far and thin that one can see the greedy hands behind the thin paper that his maps are made of.
then click on the teeny weeny home button on the bottom of the map page to return to the rest of the story. Don't forget to check out
The blatant commercialism somehow causes me to question his motives and credibility.
But then again - I live in the brown area of the map - maybe - barely
Perhaps I should buy the 60" x 46" map to find out for sure.
It is only: $35.00 plus s&h

(Tue Jun 09 1998 02:59 - ID#255284)
Am I talking chicks?
I don't know what you mean.
We've not spoken of chicken and egg prices here for a while, isn't 1 chicken = 1 Dirham?

Am I talking Dixie Chicks? ( A one album, great album wonder? )

merka won the only gold medal ever offered at the olympics for soccer. Isn't it a pisser?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:04 - ID#287186)
Kitcoites luxuriating on the West Coast
better think about moving.
I wonder what Scallion has predicted for OZ & NZ.
Sorry Sharefin {:- (
But New Zealand on the other hand....
Now what was that about buying GOLD and having it deposited in New Zealand for safekeeping.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:10 - ID#226327)
Prophecies Correction
Well, whatever you think about him, Scallion is on Tuesday June 9th at 11pm PDT, not the 8th. And the Hopis are on at 11pm as well. That is on the 15th.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:12 - ID#358318)
European Central Bank Announcement
Take it from me- they shall announce gold reserves as
"below expectation". Member nations may allocate any
remaining reserves after allocation to the ECB as they
wish. There will follow CB gold sale announcements.

I hope I am to be proved wrong on this!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:13 - ID#255284)
Announcing the Arrival of Aurator's own Silver Cloud Investments Fund
That was the one i tried to get off the ground in '92 and would've done much of my money if I had.

I announce the GREAT, aurator gold-depository, ( not be be confused with the Dallas Book Depository ) as a service to my merkan friends.

It's so easy to INVEST.

Just send me your gold. I'll hold it in the best country on erf, that's NZ and send you an authentic, aurator-signed, personal guarantee certificate for the amount of gold, in Troy oz you send. What could be simpler? What could be more attractive?

Who's first?

naa Who's on second.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:25 - ID#386279)
Gold went UP????
Coulda fooled me!! Aussie gold shares acting like the creature from the black lagoon--only come out at night to terrorize innocent shareholders.
Psssssssst--hey meeeeester. You want Aussi dollars?? Make good toilet paper. I also have planti Gnu Zeeland dollars. You can roll cigarettes with them. Hey gringo--I sell you Normandy shares--muchos cheapos. When gold go up and Aussie dinero go up-- you make muuuuuuuchos dineros!!
Now where is that AuraAussieknocker?? Gonna aim our 30 y.o. F111's eastward--yes we are!! Will save the F18A's for something more serious ( like currency speculators ) .

Hey y'all--did you know that gold ZOOMED yesterday?? Nearly $500/oz. Only catch is you get rolls of polymer. They call em Aussie $$--but don't be fooled!! They're just thin pieces of plastic!! Nice picture of the Queen though. Rule Britannia--Britannia rules the waves...............

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:39 - ID#386279)
Bart will kill me!!

Abbott and Costello's

"Who's on First?"

( Complete Text )

Abbott: Alright, now whaddya want?

Costello: Now look, I'm the head of the sports department. I gotta know the baseball players' names.
Do you know the guys' names?

Abbott: Oh sure.

Costello: So you go ahead and tell me some of their names.

Abbott: Well, I'll introduce you to the boys. You know sometimes nowadays they give ballplayers peculiar names.

Costello: You mean funny names.

Abbott: Nicknames, pet names, like Dizzy Dean -

Costello: His brother Daffy -

Abbott: Daffy Dean -

Costello: And their cousin!

Abbott: Who's that?

Costello: Goofy!

Abbott: Goofy, huh? Now let's see. We have on the bags - we have Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't
Know's on third.

Costello: That's what I wanna find out.

Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third -

Costello: You know the fellows' names?

Abbott: Certainly!

Costello: Well then who's on first?

Abbott: Yes!

Costello: I mean the fellow's name!

Abbott: Who!

Costello: The guy on first!

Abbott: Who!

Costello: The first baseman!

Abbott: Who!

Costello: The guy playing first!

Abbott: Who is on first!

Costello: Now whaddya askin' me for?

Abbott: I'm telling you Who is on first.

Costello: Well, I'm asking YOU who's on first!

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy on first.

Abbott: Who!

Costello: The first baseman.

Abbott: Who is on first!

Costello: Have you got a contract with the first baseman?

Abbott: Absolutely.

Costello: Who signs the contract?

Abbott: Well, naturally!

Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?

Abbott: Every dollar. Why not? The man's entitled to it.

Costello: Who is?

Abbott: Yes. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.

Costello: Who's wife?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: All I'm tryin' to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.

Abbott: Oh, no - wait a minute, don't switch 'em around. What is on second base.

Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.

Abbott: Who is on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third - now we're not talkin' 'bout him.

Costello: Now, how did I get on third base?

Abbott: You mentioned his name!

Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?

Abbott: No - Who's playing first.

Costello: Never mind first - I wanna know what's the guy's name on third.

Abbott: No - What's on second.

Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third.

Costello: Aaah! Would you please stay on third base and don't go off it?

Abbott: What was it you wanted?

Costello: Now who's playin' third base?

Abbott: Now why do you insist on putting Who on third base?

Costello: Why? Who am I putting over there?

Abbott: Yes. But we don't want him there.

Costello: What's the guy's name on third base?

Abbott: What belongs on second.

Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!

Costello: You got an outfield?

Abbott: Oh yes!

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: I don't know, I just thought I'd ask you.

Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell you.

Costello: Alright, then tell me who's playin' left field.

Abbott: Who is playing fir-

Costello: STAY OUTTA THE INFIELD! I wanna know what's the left fielder's name.

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: Because!

Abbott: Oh, he's center field.

Costello: Look, you gotta pitcher on this team?

Abbott: Now wouldn't this be a fine team without a pitcher.

Costello: The pitcher's name.

Abbott: Tomorrow.

Costello: You don't wanna tell me today?

Abbott: I'm tellin' you now.

Costello: Then go ahead.

Abbott: Tomorrow.

Costello: What time?

Abbott: What time what?

Costello: What time tomorrow are you going to tell me who's pitching?

Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching. Who is on fir-

Costello: I'll break your arm if you say Who's on first. I wanna know what's the pitcher's name.

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!

Costello: You got a catcher?

Abbott: Oh, absolutely.

Costello: The catcher's name.

Abbott: Today.

Costello: Today. And Tomorrow's pitching.

Abbott: Now you've got it.

Costello: All we've got is a couple of days on the team.

Abbott: Well, I can't help that.

Costello: Well, I'm a catcher too.

Abbott: I know that.

Costello: Now suppose that I'm catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and their heavy hitter gets up.

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Tomorrow throws the ball. The batter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me being a good catcher, I
wanna throw the guy
out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?

Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.

Costello: I don't even know what I'm talkin' about!

Abbott: Well, that's all you have to do.

Costello: Is to throw the ball to first base.

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Now who's got it?

Abbott: Naturally!

Costello: If I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta catch it. Now who caught it?

Abbott: Naturally!

Costello: Who caught it?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Naturally!

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: NO, NO, NO! You throw the ball to first base and Who gets it?

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's right. There we go.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: You don't!

Costello: I throw it to who?

Abbott: Naturally.


Abbott: You're not saying it that way.

Costello: I said I throw the ball to Naturally.

Abbott: You don't - you throw the ball to Who?

Costello: Naturally!

Abbott: Well, say that!

Costello: THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING! I throw the ball to who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Ask me.

Abbott: You throw the ball to Who?

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: SAME AS YOU!! I throw the ball to first base and who gets it?

Abbott: Naturally!

Costello: Who has it?

Abbott: Naturally!

Costello: HE BETTER HAVE IT! I throw the ball to first base. Whoever it is grabs the ball, so the guy runs to
second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What, What throws it to I Don't Know, I Don't Know throws it back
to Tomorrow - triple play.

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Another guy gets up - it's a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know. He's on third and I don't give a

Abbott: What was that?

Costello: I said I don't give a darn!

Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:42 - ID#206358)
HANG SENG DOWN 200 POINTS IN half day trade!
Due to the early storm,HANGSENG open hours ago,SHARPLY drop 217 points now!Fear of the devalueation of the reminbi!The chinese govt concerned about the weak yen will gave more pressure....
Any comments!?
My retail/wholesale market nearly dead.....terrible business....Everyone talk about economy, politic,..safty..ect!
life still go onnnn!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:53 - ID#255284)

"Gonna aim our 30 y.o. F111's eastward-"

Yar? Nico@chest_thumper?

Well we'll fend 'em off with our antiqued, stralian-built frigates we bought from yer last year, new, they were dammit. New. And if that don't work, why, you'll never get passed the inshore police patrol boat. ( sic )

And if you do, why, you'll never take Waiuru. ( an in-joke for kiwis everywhere, and we know there's quite a few who are too embarassed to post ~ she'll be right, noone cares about our, ahem, love for sheep )

Wairu is safe.

Good ol' boy
(Tue Jun 09 1998 03:57 - ID#26344)
Interesting post. Sorry, I can not answer your questions. su

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:05 - ID#255284)
many of us are expecting a chinese devaluation. We know very little. Have you seen that both the Aus & NZ dollars are now under attack? We have had newspaper headlines here suggesting NZ will be next domino to fall. At the moment, aussie $ looks real bad, aussie gobmint has lost at least 3 billion aus$ trying to support the currency. It seems like the next wave of asian contagion is catching Stralasia....

I have noted that gold price has gone above NZ$600 today for first time for months due to NZ deval, Nick said in Aus$ it was over 500.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:05 - ID#284255)
Monday morning blues
One Friday morning, a teacher came up with a novel way to motivate her
class. She told them that she would read a quote and the first student to
correctly identify who said it would receive the rest of the day off.
She started with "This was England's finest hour." Little Suzy instantly
jumped up and said, "Winston Churchill."
"Congratulations," said the teacher, "you may go home."
The teacher then said, "Ask not what your country can do for you." Before
she could finish this quote, another young lady belts out, "John F.
"Very good," says the teacher, "you may go."
Irritated that he has missed two golden opportunities, Little Johnny said,
"I wish those girls would just shut up."
Upon overhearing this comment, the outraged teacher demanded to know who
said it.
Johnny instantly rose to his feet and said, "Bill Clinton. I'll see you

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:08 - ID#386279)
If I can't see quite as far as others... is because I stand on the shoulders of New Zealanders.

Now speaking of the vertically challenged--our esteemed treasurer ( Peter Costello--a relative of Lou's?? ) just appeared on tv singing the praises of the Aussie $$$. If the dickhead hadn't sold all our gold he wouldn't have to defend our buck!! The tv know-it-all panic mongers are busy saying "lock in your interest rates now, before they go up!!"

We welcome all merkans down unda--in fact you can now buy the whole country for a coupla bucks!! Don't expect to see any Aussies/Kiwis/Asians in merka--y'all in the tourist trade--gotta mortgage the house to visit Disneyland!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:09 - ID#255284)

that river, it's the Danube, yes?

ennivrez-vous......sans cesse...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:09 - ID#284255)
Is Australia ready for the Euro?
"Some estimates compare it at up to 150 per cent of the millennium workload with less than half the timeframe for completion."

And confronting the issue, he warns, "is a bit like tugging a loose thread on a sweater, one that never stops unravelling. Suddenly you are engulfed in all this wool."

"It's not the same," he says. "The Euro will have a specific impact on Australian IT, but it won't be all-pervasive like Y2K.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:20 - ID#255284)
looking up the skirts of the stralian on my shoulders......hey, gerrofffff
ya really shouldn't wear fish-nets with your legs.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:20 - ID#386279)
G'day Auracious
Kinda puts a crimp in overseas travel plans, eh?? I wonder if the merkans know what kind of devastation is about to visit their tourist industry?? I'll bet they'll be giving Hawaii away in the next lottery!!BTW, mate 500 gold is not here yet. "Tomorra,............. maybe" as pa said when Marjorie Main? in Tobacco Road asked him when he was gonna do all these great things.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:21 - ID#284255)
Millennium headache is on the cards, one way or another
A thriving market in doomladen economic prophecies has been created by the imminent arrival of the next millennium. Practitioners of the dismal science have tapped into pre-millennium tension, producing reams of reports predicting an apocalyptic meltdown in the world's economy once the clock strikes midnight on December 31, 1999.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:27 - ID#253418)
Euro reserves
The suggestion made earlier that the EUROs would have a gold backing "less than expectation" and that CB would be allowed to sell as they wish
would be the death knell for gold and gold shares. It might very well be in keeping with the intent to keep gold under cover as its rallying price is a signal of failure by Central Banks to orchestrate the deficit spending, socialist state planning, money printing game they play.

However, I don't think the Germans will stand for a weak currency in the EURO. Nor will the French. There may be some compromise that lets everybody go home with something they want though I can't imagine how that would sound.

At some point here it seems the US is going to have to stem its currency's rise. The balance of trade will only get worse and further increase the risks of further devaluations in Asia. Somewhere here i see a place for gold in the equation, if nothing else as a result of the US selling dollars to support the yen. This is going to have to happen before things get out of hand.

Ithink the Euro gold reserves agreeemnt will be a pleasant surprise - whether the Euro works long term is up for grabs and I have no opinion.

Wish I was never wrong and had told confidence in my perdiction - but alas, I don't, but I'm leaning that way.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:27 - ID#255284)
Oh, those far off shores....."What shores?"...."Make mine a Glenfiddich."

Like I told you a couple of weeks ago, el nico, I parked stuff off shore...prescient, me. BTW, if you really are standing on my shoulders, it explains a lot about my life. Like why do I keep wiping white crap off my collars?

Would you like me to look after your gold? Perhaps in case your stralian gobmint passes laws to confiscate it, like our merkan friends are most concerned about?

I'll sign a piece of paper, a guaranteed gold-certificate, signed by aurator.

Anyone heard of Goldcorp? I'll save that particular speach, a truth speach so it is a long one, for ANOTHER day.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:30 - ID#269207)
tolerant1 that is interesting
nite all

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:34 - ID#284255)
Y2K Preview?
The world economy is dependent on nearly 500 space satellites for telephone service, navigation, TV and weather observation. In November the earth will be hit by the biggest meteor shower in 33 years. The Leonid storm is expected to damage or destroy an unknown number of satellites. Most of the meteors are the size of grains of sand but they move so fast they hit with the impact of .22 caliber bullets.

Shades of Y2k. A cloud of meteors this big has not hit in so long that no
one planned for it. Military satellites are expected to come throught okay,
they have armor, but civilian satellites are sitting ducks.

Building or launching replacements could take months or years, so here's a warning, too. If communications are seriously disrupted, it might trigger a stock crash. It's happened before. In 1929, phone lines into New York were knocked down by a snowstorm and investors who were cut off from their brokers became frightened. When the lines were reconnected, they sold, triggering the great 1929 crash.

Y2K. At one end we have intelligent people such as Harry Browne saying that not much of anything will happen. At the other we have intelligent people such as Gary North saying Y2K could demolish civilization.

Try some vaseline on your shoulders.
It'll keep those slippery buggers off your back

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:39 - ID#253418)
Steve Brice Regional Treasury Economist, Bank of Singapore says on CNBC there's no way US will join the BOJ to stem dollar's rise because they ( the US ) see such a move out of line with fundlementals. MY god, what fundlementals - seems our government leadrs may know things are worse than we see. Perhaps a slow down in the US economy is being orchestra by way of an export slow down due to the strong dollar. Maybe the plan is to keep the dollar and US markets strong for domestic consumption. How can our leaders be blamed if Asia self destructs - those Asians anyway.!!!! VERY DISTURBING - but probably the course of things.
Strong dollar, low oils, capital flow to US security and bond markets, capital gains taxes being collectedd, deficit declining, economy slowing as exports decline, balance of payment deficit balooning, eventuall POP???

At this hour as London gets going, gold is ticking down, silver holding on - will London and Europe follow NY's rally. I'll be surprised if we add on yesterday's gains - how many times in the last few months has silver rallied two days in a row.???

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:43 - ID#284255)
Y2k letter - unsplit the url
I've heard from a fairly reliable source that at least one very large New York bank is spending five times as much on Y2K as it's reporting, in order to disguise the magnitude of its problem and to avoid scaring people.

As noted by Machiavelli: Always assume incompetence before looking for conspiracy.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:48 - ID#386279)
GC Q8 ( Aug ) 297.00 down 1.40 ( was down 2.00 )
SI NS ( July ) 5.43 up 1.20
NZ $$ 0.00

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:50 - ID#255284)
thanks for the vaseline "tip"

waiting for the leonids ( Comet 1866 ) cause the pleiadids were less spectacular than our generation's view of Halley's comet.

But what about Levy-Schumakker ( oops. Crusty's spelling police are gonna get me, can't spell the hyphen ) Now that was some show, if you had a telescope..or a Hubble...

The day of the Leonids? Umm wasn't that a John Wyndham survivalist story made into a mostly good fillum?

good nite from podaur@torperson__THING___

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:51 - ID#284255)
 Almost everyone has heard the warnings: it will inflict negative economic growth, 50 per cent of all companies could suffer computer crashes, 20 per cent of businesses could fail -- it could be more catastrophic than the Great Depression.
De Jager describes the possible outcome on Jan.1, 2000 as "death by a thousand cuts," as systems around the world fail.
"It could be as bad as ( De Jager ) is talking about," says Richard Bird, Year 2000 project manager at Accuride in London.
"If you have one or two things fail, that's no big deal. But if you have a whole bunch of systems fail at a whole bunch of companies, it would be devastating."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 04:56 - ID#255284)
To butcher a line from Voltaire------dot dot dot

Whazzzat? NZ = 0.00?

"I see that NZ paper dollars have returned to their true value."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 05:02 - ID#253418)
Final take:
If the EURO backing announcement is not for reserves at 20% or more, and if there is not a brake on CB gold sales, XAU will not close above 80.01 and will not make a high above 82 before first making a new low or at least forming an extended basing action in the 64-70 area.

Trend lines off the last three months highs come in at 80, currently, and the 50 and 200 day moving averages are at 82. That adds up to alot of overhead resistance that even a positive announcement ( 20%+ reserves and curtialed CB selling ) will have a hard time overcoming.

The G& ministers are even "unlikely" to talk about the Yen support according to CNBC talking head. There is no strategy, there is no plan, the currencies of Asia and the downunders are going to be aloowed to sink to what ever level the market takes them. There is no news seen to lift Asian regional currencies. No government is committed to a sable currency policy.

This is bad......., brother can you spare me a dime.....

(Tue Jun 09 1998 05:09 - ID#255284)
Psssst... Webmaster...,, wanna make a dollar...?
'afore I go. Thank you for your Ag & Au candlestick charts. I wonder how we can convince Bartman that a "weekly" kitco page would attract more advertisers. On that weekly kitco page we could. perhaps see charts such as yours, weekly coin prices, the ratios so kindly provided by Donald, perhaps the "best" kitco post of the week and a recipe or two?

Anyway, thanks.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 05:11 - ID#284255)
Year 2000 time bomb - Prevailing myths deter managers from debugging computers
Good read.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 05:18 - ID#185448)
The answer is "YES"
Just entered office. No coffee yet. Just read your last post. back, when circulation works properly. No more enivrer sans sauce!

Ceterum censeo - Gold definitely forming a triple-boredom.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 05:27 - ID#255284)
Humming a Strauss waltz, dreaming of East Texas....anyone know the E Texas Waltz?
Have a good day in Vienna!

it is 21:30 on 9/6 here, will you give us a local time check with your capuccino amigo?

Yesterday, being almost middle of winter we had 21C in Orkland.. ( actually it was a record, since records began a scant 100 years ago )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:01 - ID#411331)
@ ALL: Gold lease rates firmed slightly to 1.31. This is not the kind of action
I would expect if the CBs were interested in
ending the gold carry trade. IMHO, gold will sit
below $300 as long as gold lease rates sit below
treasury bill rates. The CBs WANT GOLD BELOW $300.
The gold bear is on until CBs say it's off.

The question we should ask ourselves is why do
the CBs want gold below $300? The possiblities:

1 ) The CBs keep the POG down so they can accumulate
more. The CBs earn 1% on the lease, still get
their gold back, and can buy more at ever cheaper

2 ) The CBs are trying to keep POG down because there
really is a formula that links the price of oil to
the price of gold, and cheap gold = cheap oil imports.

3 ) The CBs are trying to keep the POG down in order to
ease the new EURO into world exchange markets without
ruffling too many American feathers.

4 ) The CBs are trying to keep the POG down because gold is
the antithesis of paper money, and most CBs have more of
their reserves in paper than in gold. They keep gold down
because most CBs have 75% or more of their reserves in the
form of paper, and they are trying to stop the value of this
from imploding.

5 ) I don't have a clue about world finance, and all of the above
are the ravings of a depressed gold bug.

Pick one, or all of the above ( they are not mutually exclusive ) .

Paul Gold__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:06 - ID#21484)
DROOY bids for Crown
Durban Roodepoort Deep is making a bid to take over Crown Consolidated Gold Recoveries. More at

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:19 - ID#26793)
Mexican peso slides deeper on Brazilian worries (huh?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:21 - ID#26793)
Russian Central Bank confirms palladium sales.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:24 - ID#26793)
Japanese politicians say poorly run banks must be left to fail.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:26 - ID#26793)
London morning gold fix $296.25

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:30 - ID#26793)
Chinese Central Bank says the weak yen is hurting them.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:30 - ID#411331)
@all: Spot gold is up $1.50 in London. It looks like the action
on Monday was not merely a COMEX phenomena. Does anybody have the figures on COMEX gold and silver stocks? Silver has firmed steadily over the past 5 hours in london, at about 1 cent per hour.

Lease rates are still at 1.31% for gold.

I think the BIS will buy all gold offered at $180, so that's the floor.
I think the funds did not like the limited maneuvering room between
spot at $290 and the floor at $280. So gold is being allowed to
rise to about $300. This will allow a window of about $20 ( 7% ) for short selling and the gold carrying trade.

I hope the above is inaccurate, but if I'm right, the rally will terminate at $300 and gold lease rates will remain in the 1 to 2% range.
IMHO as always.
selling and the gold carry trade.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:35 - ID#26793)
Careful; a weak yen can sneak up on you and give you a nasty bite.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:39 - ID#39857)
Aussies, Aussies, Aussies. Pride been knocked around, huh? That
fancy twostep by Pete on the steps of Parliament this morning
had noone fooled. Friggin up tight Aussies. Spike prevention
team prematurely shot its load all over a sick pathetic Aussie
dollar. Should-a-been lookin the other way. Brain dead Aussies
deserve everything they get. I hope the Aussie goes to .49c.
BTW I think I am presently looking at a bull hook in Sfranc. Fine

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:41 - ID#432157)
Depressed GoldBug
War-pestulance-Nukes, it does not matter NOTHING moves my PRESIOUS .Somebody DO something quick ----PLEASE

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:42 - ID#26793)
Some economists say Japan slipping into a deflationary spiral.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:46 - ID#26793)
Bundesbank president welcomes BIS global expansion; especially in Asia.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:51 - ID#185448)
We adjust our bio-rhythm according to MESZ ( Midlyouropian Soma-time ) , means Kitco-time plus 6 hrs. BTW - we have a huge statue of Johan Strauss in our municipal park, showing him live on stage - means fiddeling his fiddle ( hope not to insult anyone ) - over and over gold-plated and permanently surrounded by photographing japanese tourists. Close to the my tipi theres the "Dommayer", a caf, where Strauss used to play live.

Did you say "winter??" We got a glimpse of hell this weekend. They started to feed soft-ice to the chicken to keep them from laying boiled eggs.

Really dunno, if well get our announcement from the Duisenberg-pack. If AU is the political instrument I think it is, they wont say nothing. Why should they? EURO doesnt have to be strong today. Strong EURO now means strong pre-EURO-currencies means disadvantage in exports. Not too many participants can afford that at the moment. A Phoenix out of the ashes when USD tanks maybe. The macro-theory of unlimited capital flows can be watched in real-time. I wonder, where all those former YEN, Baht, Ringgit, Rubel, C and A ( and maybe NZ ) -bucks and now USDollars go, when the S*** hits the fan, ( as one of our comrades eloquently used to say ) . Maybe it will be the EURO, and what next? The monetary pass-the-dutchie finds an end, where debt and wealth appear in terms of hard assets, when there is no more place to go.

The fundametalist in me has a theory that the POG got dragged down in accordance with the currencies. This game works, as long as the tsunami did not hit USD-shores with full power. Dunno, if it will happen at all, cause I turned out to be wrong several times before.

Todays action in POG is remarkable, as it is at least some kind of action. But is it real action or just anticipation of action?

Avec des amitis cordiales to the phrancophone phraction

Bill Buckler
(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:52 - ID#256381)
Nick@c - and Gold going up
Nick ( 4:08 ) You are a gem, mate! I just about fell off my chair. I see Gold's up another buck and a half - lots more than that in the South Pacific Peso.

If this keeps up, then the lead indicator given by the breakout on the $A Gold chart is going to work again. I note that the Aussie Gold index was up about 10 points today. Not much, but then again, the market as a whole fell 15 points.

The $A -$US Gold comparison charts still make interesting viewing - up at the Privateer website. BTW, the latest exchange rate I have is $A 1 = $US 0.598. At Kitco's present price ( $US 297.50 ) , that gives and Aussie Dollar Gold price of just over $A 497.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:52 - ID#238422)
zeke and blooper
It's a very bad idea to bother my brother John Disney
with the story of your medical problems. If you both
got hit in head, nobody wants to know about it...

Just a reminder - Ziva no longer with us, and "she" was
very active too...

Bully Beef
(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:53 - ID#259261)
Go Gold!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:57 - ID#26793)
"If you have any money in the Yokohama get it out" a neighbor said. Must Read

(Tue Jun 09 1998 06:59 - ID#286199)
WSJ-Commodities news
GOLD: Futures rallied at the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange due to buying by one participant, traders said. The June contract rose $4.80 to $296.00 a troy ounce. "One dealer has been buying
every day in spite of the fact that the [U.S.] dollar is going strong against the yen and the [Australian] dollar has been low overnight," said Robin Alssid,precious-metals manager at Mitsubishi International Corp. in New York.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:03 - ID#248180)
Euro & UK Fund Managers
Fund managers see euro as strong currency
CONTINENTAL European fund managers are increasingly confident the euro will be a strong currency, according to a monthly survey released today.
More than twice as many of the region's fund managers now favour the euro over the dollar, with 61 per cent liking the euro's prospects during the coming year versus 28 per cent choosing the dollar, the Merrill Lynch Gallup Global survey for June said.

``Investor enthusiasm for the euro is based on expectations of significantly more restrictive monetary policy in the euro-zone,'' said Bryan Allworthy, European equity strategist at Merrill Lynch in London.

``The widespread perception is that the European Central Bank will operate a tighter-than-necessary policy to gain credibility in the financial markets as quickly as possible,'' he said.

Despite predictions of a ``hard'' euro most managers surveyed believe corporate profits in Europe will grow next year.

Further corporate restructuring after EMU and strong domestic demand were highlighted as key reasons. - Reuters

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:12 - ID#248180)
ALL Kitco persons: Do you think that the recent larger public profile of the BIS might be speaking volumes about the severely under-funded IMF??
In this present market of major bank mergers, is the BIS taking over the activities of the IMF? If so what are the possible up or down sides to such an action? I ask the questions and think that a football stadium full of economists could not agree. I think we are in the middle of global financil caos. The captains of all the ships repeat the words "stay calm" "soft landings" "glitches". Any mention of the "G" word ( Gold ) and currencies is taboo. What say yee friends & brothers?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:22 - ID#45173)
Donald: read "Sun Sets on Japan" in Atlantic Monthly last month
It's the best I've seen. As you say, a "must read." After she read it, my wife, who is Taiwan Chinese, asked me how much cash our bank is likely to be able to provide if everyone went to take out their money in cash for some reason. She guessed 40%. I told her somewhere between 1% and 5%, that if one or two families in our neighborhood went to take out their deposits in cash, none of the rest of us would be able to. She said "WHAT!" and immediately demanded we withdraw a significant sum and put it in a safe deposit box for such an emergency -- to hell with the puny interest.

She has also been highly supportive of physical gold investments. With 7000 years of continuous history, the Chinese have learned that governments and currencies come and go, and all manner of whacky political and economic experiments are perpetrated by governments against their people. But gold holds.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:26 - ID#27341)
thanks Donald

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:30 - ID#248180)
Hog of Hedges - Hedger of Hogs @ 06:34
Dear Mr SWINE, it is evident by your post that associates in your part of the pig pen would believe you to be a gentleman and a scholar. OINCK he said! ( : ) )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:41 - ID#284255)
Cory Hamasaki's DC Y2K Weather Report V2, # 24 "June 8, 1998 - 571 days to go." WRP80
( c ) 1997, 1998 Cory Hamasaki - I grant permission to distribute and reproduce this newsletter as long as this entire document is reproduced in its entirety. You may optionally quote an individual article but you should
include this header down to the tearline. I do not grant permission to a commercial publisher to reprint this in print media.

As seen in

------------- Storm Warning for Banks! -----------
From the Financial Times.
Title: IBM runs into difficulties over CoreBank system
Date: May 25,1998

Text: International Business Machines, the largest supplier of IT services to the banking industry, has run into difficulties over the developement of CoreBank, the system it has been marketing as a basic computer platform for retail banks.

CoreBank was originally developed by a consortium of Danish savings banks and developed by IBM as an international banking system. IBM has sold the system to banks in the UK, France, and Sweden, but has encountered problems in adapting the software. In the UK, Halifax chose CoreBank 18 months ago as its principal retail banking platform, in hopes that the system which can handle dates after the Year 2000, would solve its millenium bomb problems. However, senior Halifax executives said the system has proved unable to handle features of the UK banking market such as mortgage interest relief at source, and was a long way from being ready to implement. "Basically, IBM over-promised," a senior Halifax executive said. Svenska Handelsbanken of Sweden also signed up for CoreBank.

Several other UK banks have also spent millions of pounds trying to implement CoreBank in their own systems although they have not been publicly announced as clients.
--------------- end clip -------------------
OK, you euro-trash geeks, practice saying "Stick em up!" -sniff--sniff- I smell liquidated damages.
Denial heads, please don't bicker with me, take it up with the Financial Times.

But it gets better.....

Here are a few tastey quotes from a June 4, 1998, SIEMENS press release... this one is so HOT, it's not on the web yet:

------------ Begin quotes -----------------------

Siemens Announces New Release for EWSD Central Office Switch; Latest Release of World's Leading Switch Features Improvements, Including "Y2K" Solution.

June 4, 1998, Release 16.0 of Siemen's Telecom Networks' EWSD Switching System, available during the first quarter of 1999, will feature a variety of new features, operational efficiencies and cost savings for local and long distance carriers and advanced intelligent network ( AIN ) service providers.

The EWSD switch is the world market leader in digital switching systems, with more than 160 million ports installed.
The EWSD Release 16.0 feature package includes:
Architectural Features - Software Modifications have been made to adapt the EWSD switch to be millennium-ready for the Year 2000 and beyond.

----------- End Quotes --------------------------
Hey, where are the guys who said, no, no Y2K problems in phone switches. The GOOD NEWS is that Siemens has announced a Y2K ready switch. The bad news is that Release 16.0 will be ready in 1Q 1999... real soon now.

Hopefully the full text will show up on their web site. I'm too busy to type the whole thing.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 07:54 - ID#43460)
Why is gold still down?
I have a theory, not quite as cracked as some I've heard. I think its global warming. Just like a grocery store will mark down their ice cream when the freezer breaks, so the CBs are marking down gold, afraid it will melt. But not to worry, global warming will come to an end one day, even in central europe. IMHO
Hasta la vista, babee!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:01 - ID#57232)
BIS vs IMF -- heading for work
Junior: I think you are right. The US/IMF and the BIS are old-time adversaries, because the US/IMF wants to sell gold and hard assets to support a 'fiat' currency addiction that goes back to Breton Woods ( and earlier ) .

Please do not assume that the EURO launch may be the turning point. Despite the hoopla, the EURO group is much closer to the US/IMF mindset. Hence a gold rally right now may be disappointing. And -- a Chinese Yuan devaluation is looming. Gold will perform better after the next devaluation, not before, even if the bottom is probably in.

On the other hand, I am heartened by the outspokenness of the BIS, and its new office in Hong Kong. This supports what Kictcoites have been saying for a long time -- that the next gold backed currency will be in Asia, not Europe or the US.

Keep ( at least some ) of your powder dry.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:09 - ID#57232)
Euro and UK fund managers
Junior: Interesting post. I think you may be right - that there will be a concerted attempt to shift assets out of dollars to the EURO. It will be interesting to see whether there will be teeth in the EURO. We could have a honeymoon period before investors realize that the EURO is not really any better than the dollar. I will still place my bets that the big gains in gold will be when a true gold backed currency is solidly launched. This is unlikely to happen in Europe until the Europeans have solidly moved out of their recession. Not a time for tight money when things are shaky.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:10 - ID#43349)
er,uh,what's the difference again?
But Susumu Kato, chief economist at Barclays Capital Japan, said: ``Overall, it's not a
( deflationary ) spiral, it's a long-term downward trend in domestic wholesale prices.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:11 - ID#248180)
Hedger of Hogs - Hog of the Hedges @ 06:39
Mr Hedger I quoted an incorrect time reference in an earlier post to you Sir. You are quite correct about our Government being brain dead, when they sold the Gold, Yes.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:19 - ID#316209)
Another interesting day for comparison shopping
Yen was weak again overnight and spot gold up a bit. In the recent past, this was a signal for gold to drop. Now it seems to be the reverse. Could be that PMs have successfully completed a test of the lows of December/January and are bouncing. Can even envision another test of the lows on even less conviction, setting the stage for better days ahead.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:20 - ID#248180)
JTF - Euro BIS & IMF
Thanks for your comments. Asians are waiting on the Euro announcement re the percentage of Gold backing. Could be then that the Chinese devalue. Then the Jap/Yen will be announced with a Gold backing ( %? ) . Thirdly the world of Islam has already set the standard and is moving towards 100% gold & silver coin trading. Then the USG announces a gold backing %. Who is on first base?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:23 - ID#45173)
Gollum: it's not a dead parrot, it's a parrot that is in fact no longer living
an ex-parrot, if you will, but not dead, exactly.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:25 - ID#187218)
sharefin @ 07:41 - ,,,,, "ANOTHER" ,,,, 'Why-Too-Kay' mis-scare ,,,,,,
As per your request ---- I am the guy who understands switching networks on this forum.

Release 16.0 has been tested and ready to rock-n-roll ,,,,, several weeks past I was in Boca Raton, FL at Siemens Headquarters to discuss the implementation details for several large RBOCs. ,,, I was there with ALL major U.S. telcos including Bellcore discussing an entire host of issue for Rel 16.0 and Rel. 17.0 ,,,,

For over a year I've been telling you and others about the readiness of these switches ,,,,, the Y2K article that you posted describes the compliance of the EWSD and it has been working ,,,, and ready to deliver ,,,,
You do not undrstand the reasoning behind the 1Q 1999 delivery date. Siemens has the Rel 16.0 running their complex in Florida - which BTW is approximately 100,000 lines ( one of the largest switches in the USA ) ,,, the delivery date you mentioned is because large telco concerns fund releases many years in the future and Release 16.0 happens to fall in 1Q 1999 ,,,, large infrastructures cannot handle such a massive change in short periods of time so they generally initiate major generic changes yearly ,,,, many telco had Rel 15.0 deployed in 1998 and logically the next release will be in 1999 ,,,, if you had the money today - you can buy this switch ,,,
Let me re-emphasise - Release 16.0 is up and running ( as I've state before on this forum ) .
I appreciate your attempts to bring awareness to the 'Why-Too-Kay' issue BUT please be careful before you make accusations ,,,, I read something somewhere regarding concerns over many 'Why-Too-Kay' promoters going overboard and losing credibility with people 'on-the-fence' ,,,, If you truly believe in this - be careful ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:25 - ID#316209)
Interesting how little we hear now about the backing for the Euro compared to all of the fuss a month or two ago. With Germany, France and Italy in control of the votes, it seems clear now that the currency will be backed to a reasonably high extent ( 15%-30% ) by gold. This would make for a strong currency and provide competition for the Dollar. With all of the Dollars swishing around in Europe ( and the rest of the world ) , there should be a natural tendency to exchange Dollars for Euros, ( at least at first ) , and put pressure on the Dollar in the beginning. That would signal an end to the near term strength of the Dollar and an indication that gold prices will tend to rise.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:28 - ID#43349)
I've been looking for the forest but there are so many trees
around here I seem to have gotten myself lost.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:31 - ID#432157)
What happened to the LITTLE Rally

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:35 - ID#183109)
RANGY movin' back up?
WetGold, re. your
"I still like the fundamentals of RANGY and just placed another limit order for 10,000 @ 0.75 ) ,,,, load-m-up ,,,,,,,, "

I'm buying at 7/8 so until all my cash runs out, you ain't getting filled : ) ........see ya north of two! for starters.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:38 - ID#187218)
POLARBEAR ,,,, thanx for the update ,,,,, I'm still gonna' place any order today for
under $1.00 ,,,, load-n-up-on-the-Range !!!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:49 - ID#284255)
The end lines were Cory's comments not mine.

Definetly not my field to comment on.
I'm just a cut and paster.

I appreciate your imput and it's good to see reports questioned with knowledge.

With the media etc it seems a very grey area.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:50 - ID#248180)
ORIS @ GOLD & PGM's & Russian Jet Fighters & Vodka/Pickle Charts
ORIS - Good day and good night from Down Under. I had a very busy weekend and was too busy to post any contributions to your debate on Russian Jet Fighters and USA Fighters. It was a pity that only Migs were discussed. I am of the opinion ( vodka/pickle analysis ) that the Russian Su27/30/35 are very SEXY Russian aircraft. In this superficial & cosmetic age of fiat money Sexy Aircraft that can manouver like a COBRA in the sky must not go unnoticed. To remind you & others: - Cheers & good night.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:53 - ID#187218)
sharefin --- I apologize --- thought the article was his and commentary yours ,,,
Es tut mir leid ,,,,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 08:56 - ID#342315)
Pu'ukani re July 98
In your post about air times for prophecies you mentione July 98. What's happening? Thanx for info, Charlie

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:02 - ID#284255)
Monster markets
Watch out. The Asian crisis is breaking loose

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:04 - ID#252391)
This is quite strange
Gold is up again. Silver is up one cent. The SA Golds closing up 3.3%

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:08 - ID#342315)
JTF re 8:09
I heartily agree with this post. I have seen no proposal that would make the Euro any better than the $. Look at EJ's post 6/8 23:58. Tax and budget problems and they don't really have a central team like Rubin and Greenspan. I say Euro will end up like a hot blivit. Charlie

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:11 - ID#247273)
Well, my, my, Gold pushing on 300 ( Bloomberg 298+ ) , and just two days
ago we were getting lambasted with "2,6,9". very interesting.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:19 - ID#340459)
I think the actions we see are more likely coming from private buying by High Net worth individuals
The CB's and other regulatory authorities takes weeks/months to even differentiate their dick from the back end and many days to get off their arse. I hope that this buying continues unabated in moving POG up till the 800 pound gorilla's realize that their balls are caught up in a vise, compelling them the stop the gold whoring as low rates.

IMHO and excuse my non parliamentary language.

Go Gold Go,
I think that some gold stocks did not move up yesterday as anticipated because perhaps the Fund Managers knew that their fraternity were not the group that was moving the market and not sure whether individuals can hold it for much longer and also they are always unsure when there is no news but action.,, IMHO and hope it continues, best of luck..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:24 - ID#226327)
chas re prophecies
Hi Chas,

This is what I posted and it's really as much as I know. It's just that both the Hopis and Scallion seem to be giving a time line of July for the start of earth changes. Some other Kitco-ites gave links to Scallion's website

which has some rather scary looking future maps of the world. Unless you live in NZ, that is. I'm certainly going to listen. Can you imagine what would happen to POG if there was the slighest hint of these things coming to pass?

Date: Tue Jun 09 1998 03:10
Pu'ukani ( Prophecies Correction ) ID#226327:
Well, whatever you think about him, Scallion is on Tuesday June 9th at 11pm PDT, not the 8th. And the Hopis are on at 11pm as well. That is on the 15th.

Date: Tue Jun 09 1998 02:43
Pu'ukani ( Earth Change Prophecies ) ID#226327:
A few days back, I posted about elders from the Hopi Nation coming on the Art bell show to talk about their prophecies. It was announced tonight that they requested to come on the show because they believe the Hopi prophecies are going to start manifesting in July. That's this July, July 1998. They will be on Monday June 15th at 8pm PDT.

Also tomorrow, June 8th at 8 pm PDT, Gordon Michael Scallion will be on the Art Bell Show giving his prophecies for earth changes coming in July and August 1998.

In any case, it seems that we will not have to wait very long to see if they are right or not.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:29 - ID#187218)
Cory Hamasaki's ---- who is he ---

I love this quote: ,, "Cory has been focused on Y2K since December 1, 1979, when he debugged the infamous 000197AF problem that took down 5 IBM mainframes... "

Infamous ??? ,,,, took down 5 machines ??? ,,,, mainframes ??? ,,,, WELL - I know guys that took down many more machine than that ,,,,,,
Here's another classic: ,,, " .. Some of our brother and sister programmers will not see the greatest programmer hiring frenzy that world has ever had. Here is the death watch, a tribute to those who labored and died before Y2K... ". ,,, you gotta love it - kinda-like Jim-n-Tammy Bakker ,,,
,,, I've met this type guy before - one who works for a large corporate concern as a programmer ,,,, works his way up to supervisor ,,,, becomes the master technician of his department and utilizes his years of experience to branch out into a business to resolve issues of smaller companies not having the manpower NOR the will to resolve ,,,, He becomes successful working his old job with the new title of R&D Coonsultant Company ,,,, he then sees a golden opportunity to 'enlighten' the 'un-en-lightened' by telling us how he resolved a problem in 1979 that most young programmers today can fix in hours ,,,,, in addition he tells us that he is publishing a series of "inflammatory" ( his words ) articles that is purposely designed to align us with his 'bad-boy' side ,,,,, IMHO
BTW: I still have not heard from Ed Yourdon and his "Time-Bomb 2000" mistakes ,,,,,, I still await his call and/or snail mail reply ,,,,,, I've also e-mailed Mr. Hamasaki to ask what companies I can call to get a reference for his work ,,,,,,,
My guess: ,,, neither one will ever reply ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:30 - ID#340459)
@Chas - Euro territory has positive balance of trade as opposed to US situation
Almost the same market size as USA, more closer ties to Oil in the Middle East and better relations with rest of the world compared to USA, they have immense potential to grab all the development and construction activity in eastern europe, west asia etc. Core Industries and Workers are at par with US. Tourism due their location will attract more global visitor's etc, every nation has a different flavour and not like concrete LEGO Block cities of USA.

I think that many nations disenchanted with US will align themselves more closely to Euro and EU, Uncle Sam there is a new kid on the Block for you.

Plus they recognize the value of Gold and are making Gold a inhereant part ( albeit indirectly ) of commerce.

Go Gold Go....

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:34 - ID#24864)
Aud Au = $500
At the moment US$298.50 @ 0.5970 A$/US$ Exchange rate
equals A$500 per troy ounce.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:35 - ID#426220)

The rally continues

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:37 - ID#431263)
Say hello to July Gold and August Silver! Sheesh! Gold has breached $300 basis August and will quickly explore the $310-315 range! The world's economy is a mess and no currency is safe from attack including the US Dollar! GOLD WILL BE THE ONLY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:39 - ID#43349)
as the world turns
In London they've started to advertise....

LONDON, June 9 ( Reuters ) - The London Stock Exchange launched a million-pound advertising campaign on Tuesday with
the aim of encouraging more of the British public to invest through the stock market.

While in Tokyo they haven't got a clue.....

TOKYO, June 9 ( Reuters ) - Amid deepening concern over the sharp yen slide, a Bank of Japan ( BOJ ) policy-making board
member said on Tuesday that raising interest rates was not an option to be taken to fight Japan's economic woes.

``At the moment we must stick to a policy of strengthening economic activities centring on the corporate sector... Under current
conditions it ( an interest rate rise ) is a difficult option,'' the BOJ's Yasuo Goto told a news conference after a meeting with
regional business leaders.

I wonder if they have noticed yet that their policy of strengthening economic activities is not working?....

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:40 - ID#340459)
@chas - Hans Titenmeyer of Germany is more prudent than AG and Rubin combined and less likely
to bow under political pressure of HillBillies..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:49 - ID#284255)
It did read like I wrote it.

What's your view on the site?
It does seem a bit far out.
But he's been at it for a while.
His scenarios in issue #78 make one think.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:53 - ID#254201)
July silver should experience a short term high between 5.45 -5.50 and a pull back to 5.30 range. Sell gold above 300 use a $5 stop.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 09:53 - ID#242325)
Again KITCO sentiment proved to be a great contrary indicator. Gloom here just before the rally was so thick, you could cut it with knife. RJ actually was one of the more optimisitc posters. A sure fire buy signal.

Gold's ability to rally amid powerful deflationay forces is very significsnt technically. The fundamental macroeconomic background for POG doesn't get much worse than this. Think what POG might do when the fundamentals change for the better.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:02 - ID#426220)

In 1989 Japan was experiencing an 8% growth rate and low
inflation - while the Nikkei and real estate values were soaring to
untenable record levels.

Unfortunately, Japan has failed to comprehend the financial dynamics of its economy. Consequently, the Land of the Rising Sun will soon see the collapse of its banks, its insurance companies and, ultimately, default on its sovereign debt, followed by the Yen tanking.

That the richest people on earth should sustain such a
destruction of wealth during a time of great technological
advancement and world growth is truly ironic and paradoxical.

I have studied in numerous universities around the
world - and I always thought most Economists were literally and totally full of beans, because I rarely understood their rantings. In sharp contrast I am able to follow and comprehend KUTYN'S every line, every thought ... his analysis oozes and exudes logic and clarity. Bravo, Bravo Mr Kutyn -- and again many thx for sharing your wisdom and work with us at the following URL - as usual you need to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" before pasting it to the Internet locator:

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:05 - ID#413109)
We are again in agreement
@Old Gold---
Date: Tue Jun 09 1998 09:53
OLD GOLD ( ) ID#242325:
Again KITCO sentiment proved to be a great contrary indicator.
Would like to add one other point. My work would have this move continue
to the up side for several weeks, possibly into Aug/Sept, then a possible
consolidation and a sharp correction into the fall, before another leg
up would take it to the levels which would make the bugs happy.
This I forsee into early part of next year.

It sounds a little far fetched to predict so far into the future, but
if you look back at past performance you will see this type of pattern,
either a sharp runup from a bottom and then a correction, before making
new highs, or a move up that is not sharp or long in duration with a
sharp correction, before the big move up.

Silver also has a repeated long term pattern, check out the monthly
charts on both Gc and Si, and you'll notice these patterns.
Also true of XAU.
Am no poet, and I know it.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:09 - ID#284255)
I should have looked back before I posted that last question.
Thanks for the answer before the question.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:29 - ID#413109)
Welcome your email
Es tut mir auch leid, that I have to request information not pertaining to PMs.
Would appreciate an email
re- your take on the seriousness of the Why-Too-Kay problem, keeping in
mind that not all participants live in the States, and might be interested as
to what a pro, who has a skeptical mind, thinks are the various scenarios
that could be playing out in different part of our planet.
Am particularly interested in the frightening thought of all, or most, utilities
going out as a result of these problems. This in a metropolitan area has got
to cause havoc ( panic ) , and from what I've been reading on many sites, and
some Kitco posters, the possibilities are high that this could happen.
Not to mention transportation, food supplies and the rest.

Thanks for taking the trouble.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:31 - ID#43349)
Now if we can just keep Kitco sentiment down for a while....

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:33 - ID#373284)
I have decided to sell all my metal holdings and I am going long grey paint and
blue grey textiles in honor of the UN taking over the world. I think I may include yams as well.

Mike Stewart
(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:34 - ID#270253)
Technical Update
Things are getting better, not worse.

The Toronto Gold Mining McClellan Summation Index is at -298 and getting ready to turn up soon. I mentioned last week that if the -300 level in the summation index breaks easily, there is serious trouble ahead. This must turn and rise for a few days to confirm further upside, but it looks good.

The New Lows on Toronto Mining Issues have peaked at 14 to 19 issues per day. We want to see this number dry up to 5 or less fewer issues per day. This will indicate a healthy market.

If last week was an intermediate bottom ( too soon to say for sure ) , the low of 6169 intraday on the Toronto Gold Mining Index will form the base for the next trendline. This line rises at 2% weekly and contains most minor to intermediate corrections.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:36 - ID#212197)
@WetGold: Lieber Herr WetGold: I do not know how many switches and PBXes are..
..installed in the USA and worldwide.
Do you have statistics? And what is their age?
Switches and PBX boxes are not my field of expertise. My understanding is this:
- a PBX is the interface box between a Public Switched Network and a private network. ( Private telephone network would be for example the intercompany phone connections. )
- Switches are knots in public switched networks.
Both are points where call records are generated. The generation of call records is date/time sensitive. From my viewpoint thats something to worry about.

And: who tests these things instead of relying on what the vendor says?
To test means: test the application under simulated Y2K date/time conditions.

Let's dig into these questions on a professional level but still using a language which can be understood by non-experts. ( Like myself. )

I'm an expert for business software development. And I happen to work in the telecommunication industry. I'm responsible to get the business software Y2K compliant. My company strictly forbids to talk to any outsider about the Y2K problem. I'm sure other companies have the same policy. So don't even ask me more details. You would immediately know where I'm working.
But this shouldn't prohibit us to discuss these questions as professionally as possible.

Ich freue mich auf Ihre Antwort.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:37 - ID#187218)
sharefin @ 09:49 ,,,,, per your request on issue #78 ,,,,,
Mr. sharefin: ,,, you've posted much over the last few years and I greatly appreciate your insights and thoughfulness ,,,, my impression is that you are a bright guy ,,,, step away from what you are listening to here and just judge the following quotes without emotion:
1. ... "... With few exceptions, the systems are not being fixed. Most critical systems will have failures to include incorrect outputs, complete failure, and loss of data ... "
2. ... "... There are no "packaged solutions" for most of this stuff. Enterprise, mission critical systems are unique entities ..."
3. ... "... What I don't know and can't predict are the consequences that will flow from these certainties. I also have a hard time isolating the significant from the trivial consequences ... "
4. ... "... A ) minimal: ... services, power, water, failure less than 1 month ,,, limited opportunistic looting ,,, no welfare for 2 months ,,, Dow falls 2,000 points ,,, civil war breaks out in a few unstable countries
5. ... "... Is Y2K gonna kill a whole bunch of people? It's a sure thing ..."
sharefin: My responses are based on experience as is the above author. However, I have stated my background on this forum numerous times - I don't know who the author had done business with. I have sent him an email note asking for references ( most business will do this ) and ask you perhaps to do the same.

My background included working with numerous Fortune 500 companies including military contractors such as RCA, Lockheed, Martin Marietta, etc. I've had involvement in tracking facilities at Kwajalein Island in the south Pacific. On the commercial side I've dealt with a host of communications companies including the telcos. I've also taught communication systems at all levels ( educational facilities and private corporations ) .
Response ( 1 ) : He is obviously working with small business. Of course, in this arena - many problems you deal with are unique - many of the smaller firms had technicians or programmers that used the company to further their skill sets and move to mid-size and large firms. With this lies inherent problems - not death scenarios.
Response ( 2 ) : There never have been. Packaged solutions to generic problem are market-driven. If there are enough 'Class-A' problems an entrepreneur will develop a solution - if not, do it yourself. This is the nature of capitalism by which stems the motivation the author chooses to promote his business.
Response ( 3 ) : He is admitting to not knowing the future. He will not be able to audition for the 'Wizard' and poke fun at 'straw-men'. He does not have faith in his own profession. ,,, As a corollary to his lack of optimism - Let me add my optism to the mix ---- I am UNcertain someone will contract my services when I return from holiday in a few weeks - BUT - I am CERTAIN that I am very qualified to handle whatever comes my way.
Response ( 4 ) : 'civil war' breaking out in unstable countries ---- as a minimum ??? ,,, check out his mid-range and severe categories.
Response ( 5 ) : Does not deserve comment.
Mr. sharefin: please listen to your own logic. This stuff is non-sense. Am I saying to do nothing regarding the problem. NO. Do what is necessary to achieve your level of comfort BUT let's not lock ourselve in a tower and demand $1M in donations bacause the world will end if not .... please use reason and search for the facts ,,,,
To the 'Why-Too-Kay' promoters: please - no personal attacks - stick to the issues ,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:39 - ID#43349)
Have you ever noticed how in the winter if it gets up into
the 50's everyone takes off their coats and walks around
in their shirtsleeves remarking how warm it is, but in the
summer if it get's down to the 50's everyone puts them
on and goes around shivering.

Seems to me it wasn't too long ago we were seeing the end
of the world because gold had dropped to 300. Now it's just
made it back up to around 297-298....

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:43 - ID#350179)
News link
Top Russian statistician arrested
Russian Communists move to impeach Yeltsin
China says invited by U.S. to observe war games
Report: Russian missiles already on Cyprus

Dollar down, gold up

Anybody want the URL's?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:43 - ID#194200)
@Rhody - central bank motives
Low lease rates and big price rallies don't usually mix - I agree. Real surprise of sub $300 price is not sub-$300 prices, but short term lease rates near 1% while prices simultaneous with sub $300. This is not, net net, a short, squeezable market. ( eg as it was end 1995 with lease rates over the cost of money ) . For every producer buy back - reducing borrowing and lease rates - there's a short seller. And there's always a lender, so long as lease rates stay abover 50-75 bp ( below which it's hardly worth bothering, for a central bank )

On your 5 theories of central bank behaviour - bravo! But I only agree with the last. To recoup:
i ) centrals selling gold to buy more, more cheaply? Don't know of a central bank governor called Machiavelli
ii ) centrals selling gold to push oil price down? Don't tell OPEC.
iii ) centrals selling gold to ( somehow ) benefit the Euro. Lost me there
iv ) centrals selling gold to maintain confidence in paper money. It'll take more than low gold prices, surely, even if you hold a torch for gold!
v ) None of the above: agree - there's simply a disequilibrium; they have ( inherited ) too much. They will have less ( never mind the bureaucratic or legalistic obstacles ) . Without a cooperative solution to this 'game', sales will be uncoordinated. Put the damaging announcement effects ( pre-announcing intentions ) down to simple learning by doing, and the domestic democratic imperative of shaping public opinion. By product: price is the casualty. The auction mechanism has validity here, perhaps.

None of which would matter, ofcourse, if investors like Mr Buffett were less discriminating in picking their precious metal bets ( ie avoiding gold ) . But they are. Alas.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:45 - ID#227290)
Market Comments
To all:

A moment of truth has arrived for gold.

Gold has rallied into its resistance area on the weekly chart, with the 100-day and 200-day MAs just above it as well as the underside of the trend line that it broke a few weeks ago.

On the daily chart, though, gold has broken out of a downtrend drawn from the April-May highs.

It needs to break out on the weekly chart for me to turn bullish. The power behind this "surprise" move has me hopeful.

Skip mentioned yesterday that even though gold rose sstrongly, his portfolio of gold stocks was down for the day. Evidently, Skip holds a number of exploration and development "juniors." I would say that in the early stages of a move up in gold, the exploration and development stocks will certainly lag the senior producers.

The situation now is that the Vancouver Stock Exchange Index is trading around its lows for 1998 even in the face of higher gold prices. This latest decline in gold seems to have sapped much more sentiment from investors in the Canadian mining shares. They are not responding to this move in gold at all. And even many of the seniors are not running like they believe this move.

Skip, right now it's a very selective market in the Canadian juniors. Gone are the days, for now, when they rise wildly because of speculation that gold is making a big move. The market is hardly giving these companies any value for what they might find some day. So many of the juniors are just not participating yet.

My opinion is that investors are fed up with the losses they've taken in stocks that have operations in places like Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe. The stocks with operations in North America have a leg up in investor sentiment right now.

And there's one other factor; the three big exploration plays have gone bust for the moment -- South Voisey's Bay, the Alberta Diamond Play, and the Zacetecas, Mexico Play are all in the dumpster right now and the exploration market is looking for another area to key on.

So it's a sad day in the Canadian exploration stocks., but things will turn around if this move in gold proves to be for real.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:46 - ID#342376)
@ Gollum
Don't worry, I said my incantation such that Kitco sentiment will not be a contrarion indicator. Although I've not been a goldbug for long, my gut never had as strong a feeling as it did yesterday. I guess the market was just waiting for me to buy gold which I did yesterday. I should have realized it sooner. I must be very careful with this power......... GO GOLD!

Mike Stewart
(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:47 - ID#270253)
BGR Precious Metals
For those wishing to buy a closed end gold fund at a big discount, BGR ( BPT.A in Toronto ) is trading at about a 28% discount to Net Asset Value. Historically, anything in the 25 to 30% range has been a good buy. This is a well managed, broad portfolio of gold issues. Everything but South Africa. Current Bid $10.65 Ask $10.75 CDN$. I estimate the Net Asset Value at about $15.35 now versus $14.90 last Thursday.

During real Gold bull markets this usually peaks when there is no longer a discount to Net Asset Value. You make money two ways. It trades thinly, so state your price up front.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:48 - ID#187218)
Reify @ 10:29 ,,,,
the information I post on Kitco is free for all ( as are everyone else' ) and I am not in the business to make money on 'Why-Too-Kay' ,,,, if I were I'd write a book and counter each of these 'so-called-experts' point-for-point.

I only respond to this non-sense when it is getting out of control --- and --- it has been lately. It will probably get worse next year ----.

What are your particular concerns ?

btw: I am not a Y2K expert - I do however understand the issues ,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:49 - ID#284255)
Yeltsin tells bankers to back rouble - rejoin the url

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:53 - ID#57232)
Gold --- Who's on first?
Junior: How appropriate after Nick@C's post from the past this AM. All the fiat currencies of the world do not want to be on first base with gold -- just yet. It's hard to support gold when you are addicted to printing money. I like your comment about the Chinese waiting for a message from the Euro about gold backing. If the announced gold percentage is too low, they will devalue.

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:55 - ID#24135)
Beware irrational exhuberence
To All
I never thought Id see the day .. ME in agreement
with little gritty bum .. I can hardly stand it..

From my genetic advisor June 6 saturday .. " silver
will improve short term while gold moves sideways or
retraces 50 -60 % from the high around 315 .. at the
same time the XAU could retrace to as much as 78.7 "

His advice ... take puts on Homestake on a retrace
to $11.1 ( any series you like ) .. stop yourself out on
a rise above $11.5.

If dollar becomes stronger against European currencies
gold at $250 becomes very likely.

Dont like to be a party pooper .. but I
think the party is in puts. And I still
want to buy harmony back at $3.25.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 10:58 - ID#330209)
John Disney
Your 0250. Leave Cyprus alone!! We got enough b......t going on around here without Russian Mig pilots. Sometimes I wish I could transport the whole godamned place next to Madagascar.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:01 - ID#229277)
Gollum: We each have varying perceptions of temperature depending
on what we desire and fear. To me, gold priced 280 to 320 is a buy range. I'll play the sell range by ear, but it's long. I see a mountain of debt on one side of a scale held up high by a groaning, creaking, leaking fiat currency system and an equally heavy mountain of gold on the other with a whole lot of kenetic energy on its side. I won't see my sell range until the the scale one again reached equilibrium and confidence in paper is restored.

To switch to your metaphore, if the Fed plane does a wheels-up landing as I expect, it'll be a while before another is built and back in the air. After the initial flight to hard assets, the question is, will gold deflate faster than other commodities so that cash is a better store of wealth? Maybe euros? We shall see.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:06 - ID#187218)
ALBERICH__A @10:36
You posted:

".. Do you have statistics? And what is their age? ... "
Response: Yes but this figure is proprietary. The age of most switch generics are less than 2 years old. Whenever a generic is scheduled for load the particular vendor requires that PCNs ( hardware/software upgrades ) be in place during or prior to the retrofit depending on the nature of the PCN.

" ... The generation of call records is date/time sensitive. From my viewpoint thats something to worry about ... "
Response: You are slightly confused. The 'call records' created are within the databases of the switching architecture, generally a Class 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 office, inherent hierarchical switches that interface with the world. These switches ( depending on Class type ) handle Regional, Secional, Primary, Toll, or end-office activities. To be short --- long-distance or local traffic. ALL major vendor have completed date issues in these switches. The problem is the Billing Systems which are adjunct to the call-handling and call-processing switching system.

NOW - LISTEN TO THIS - The Billing Systems were the first adjunct processors to be Manufacturer Discontinued ( MD'd ) when these problem surfaced ---gone history. Remember: 'Follow the money trail'.

In addition, PBXs are also adjunct ot the switch and considered Customer Premise Equipment ( CPE ) just as your telephone. The manufacturers of such equipment must follow the standards of many organizations such as ANSI, IUT, IEEE, etc.

Herr ALBERICH___A: What part of the world do you work ? Muenchen perhaps.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:09 - ID#340459)
Folks, Can anyone suggest any canadian junior mining stocks (less than a buck) that would move up
POG, Thanks..

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:09 - ID#24135)
Top Stuff ...
Just got the Gold Mining Newsletter .. Interesting
statistics at the back
3 month % change at end April

Some good performers ..
RSA .. Harmony 94.5 %, Randfontein 49 %, Elandsrand
55 %, Evander 58 %.

Australia .. australian resources 56 %, Niugini
Mining 63%, Kidston 50 %, Newcrest 44 %

Canada .. Echo Bay 92.4 %, TVX 30 %, Barrick 19.5 %

Other .. Lihir 32 % , Buenaventura 30.5 %

ABX was really a bit pathetic in comparison to
others. Dont understand Echo Bay .. Any comments ??

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:12 - ID#238422)
MM\Statement from the Kremlin
Dear MM, the report you mentioned in regard
to Russian missiles already on Cyprus caught
us by surprise, unless, of course, our long-term
comrade F.Castro already moved there...

We will send 1,000 of our high ranking officials
to Cyprus tomorrow to find the truth and get
some rest, you know, some innocent combination
of business and pleasure...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:13 - ID#373284)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:15 - ID#187218)
ALBERICH__A ,,,, point to clarify ,,,
When I said that the number was proprietary I was referring to switches NOT PBXs ,,,, the number of PBXs are not known by anyone ,,, they are customer equipment ,,,, analagous to asking how many telephone are being used worldwide --- no-one-knows ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:17 - ID#284255)
Thanks for the time and effort of your reply.
For me analysis from both sides of the fence is essential.
I like to sit on the fence and balance a bit of the truth from both sides.
A gemini trait I guess.
I think that there is a lot of extremism coming from both sides at the moment.
Denial coming from the optimists and the pessimists.
My guess is that we can only monitor progress/remediation as the months tick by and slowly try to gain some perspective of how it will eventually effect us.
I would like to see as little effect as possible but realize the enormity of the problems.

Your comments are greatly appreciated as they do give some balancing to the endless commentary we have to put up with.
There is a lot of good and bad commentary and I enjoy sifting through it.

Untill the date draws close I will have to remain conservatively cautious.
Thanks again.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:18 - ID#340459)
@tol1, which market is TNX & OROP in ? could not locate for quote

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:21 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
Gold rallied 7 ( seven ) $
heard people say the EU central bank will hold 27.5% of assets in gold...
in asia physical demand up; its the only thing left
..and dont forget hedging with futures only possible if you hold margins, and as I mentioned yesterday the geniuses managing MF dont know that yet

big bears smelling blood
BIS report ( read comments ) ignored
they wrote USD 33% overvalued against yen ( usdyen should be 99, not 140 )

One however deserves closer scrutiny .... and deals with China's position relative to the JY matter
I read it as a veiled message that says "We in China will devalue our yuan to remain competitive" ( or in other words "screw you summers" )

even uncle Teitemeyer cannot resist gettin into the act .....Bundesbank President Hans Tietmeyer said on Monday that financial market should not ignore the positive aspects of Japanese economic fundamentals when valuing the yen. ``One must look not only at the ( economic ) cycle, one also has to look at Japan's trade balance,'' he added. ``I hope that the yen does not undershoot excessively. This would be in nobody's interests,'' Tietmeyer said.

of course all this chit chat don't mean a hill of beans .... no combined intervention is planned nor should it be expected ( course I won't rule out China - Japan - German intervention that would really marginalize the FED:} )

Goldman Sachs & Co said in recent research that the burgeoning U.S. international trade deficit, exacerbated by slower export growth to Asia and Europe, suggests the dollar is overvalued and will come under pressure in the months ahead.

Toshihiko Masaki, head of strategic positioning group of Chase Manhattan Bank, said he took the overnight remark of Tietmeyer to imply there are chances for the yen to overshoot in the reverse direction in the medium term. ``If you closely monitor the dollar/mark exchange rate, the dollar has not been strong at all. If the dollar falls below 1.7500 marks, the dollar/yen will eventually follow the lead and tumble,'' Masaki said. ``The market tends to shift focus suddenly. Today's focus on weak Japanese economic performance could be a non-factor tomorrow. The market may well switch the focus to Japan's massive trade surplus, as Tietmeyer suggested,'' he said

all of these remarks are velly confusing ..... to an equities trader only 33% overvaluation still represents a bargoon:}

sounds like a return to the "good old days" of head loppin Alicia ..... ( I wonder if Mr. yeltsin made this remark while holding his trademark bottle of Vodka in hand...perhaps he was merely under the influence )

.....and from the rubble they will one day build a new rouble ....Proverbs 14

Anyone planning on a trip to the Philippines in the near future better take a slow boat there and back...PAL ( philippine airlines ) is about to go "belly up"

some good news for a change .... Nabisco is only goin to cut 3,500 jobs and close a few plants ....thank gawd they aren't touching the recipe for Oreo Cookies!

Japans Mr. "no" is back ......his recommendation ..." Japan should dump all of it's US treasurys which would cause US interest rates to spike and bring the American economy to a halt and the American bubble of a stock Market would implode which would send the entire world into a deflationary spiral" ......"The US needs to be reminded that we have that power" .......Sheesh how excitin destroy the financial world! ....what a relief I was worried that they migh start testing Nukes :}

its going to happen anyway
first our pacific pearl - and now our mikimotos

He is somewhat of an extremist in his views but he is right about one thing that he says "Why can America, the worlds biggest debtor nation, be taking advantage of Japan, the world's biggest creditor? How can this go on?"

oh ye naysayers who have no faith. gubmit *must* keep the bubble goin to give Clinton '00 a win.

the yen is 33% too cheap; if they dont do that they'll be stupid

One of his main ideas is that Japan should freeze US assets in Japan and create a national fund ( such fund to be formed from the sale of all US treasurys ) to buy up assets that would otherwise fall into foreign hands....... well at least he says that Japan should pay for em and not just grab em:}

Hopefully we will see some intervention from SOMEWHERE with regard to Japan. It could be worse. You could have invested in Kodak in the Russian market. Mon Dieu!

there's a bridge out on bubba gore's information highway portending the largest train wreck in history ( y2k ) - japan aint the enemy, it's us

Japan truly ain't the enemy, they have made the American bubble economy possible .... They should be thanked graciously or as the Italians would say "milla gratsi" ( excuse the reaonable facimilie )

freeze our assets and we freeze our debt

the situation is grotesque; reasonable people will be crucified til the MF own everything and the world will end like in 1929
it is however too late; if they sell all bonds they'll get nothing
They can paper their walls

Until they can address the issues of how they underwrite loans and who they loan money to, nothing will change. Japan is basically a nepotistic society and still largely closed to outsiders. These are cultural barriers that will be hard to overcome.

Built on a real estate bubble that went pop

what makes you think that anyone can change that way of thinking? It will remain closed to outsiders and why should any outsider even want to aquire Japanese assets
They are most happy without foreigners trying to dictate policy to them ....

HK flirting with yearly lows; remember this was one of the "triggers" last october.

why should anybody buy anything in japan instead of buying US stocks

With that kind of mindset I sure would not want to buy in. China is the tiger in the game now. Japan in the mid-80's were at the cross roads and they just could not go global and make the hard decisions with regard to banking. Now they are faced with China, who I might add, is a traditional enemy. Thunderclouds are brewing folks. All wars are based on economics or religion, more apt both. What does China need a Nimez type class ship for? South Sea China Oil?

they have stuck their head in the sand at their peril. It is sad to see because they worked so hard from the end of WWII

Hong Kong is only a small place, Singapore is a tiny peninsula, Taiwan is a small island. Each market has shrunk quite a bit, Taiwan's by over 1000 points in 2 weeks, but ours are rallying. Until we realize that they are investors of their mother ship. China is down more than 2% last night, here comes the mother ship. But the bearish talk in the early morning here spoils the day. Cheer up, we will float and prosper at others's perils.

China needs naval power to protect the China pond. On their map the S Seas are within their borders and they do not want us to own those oil and gas fields on the continental threshold which, soon, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, and Vietnam will sell to us at a great discount as they need cash to feed their people.

That was a bearish statement on Indochina generally = profits and buys out and acquistions for US which is bullish : )

the minute they decide to "own" those oil fields it is 1. in international waters 2. in major shipping lanes. Guess the rest

good news is a trader can make money in markets going either direction. don't worry, be happy.

not to worry, we will use some cheaper blood to fight that future war, if one comes. They soon are hungry overthere and be willing to fight the Chinese.

GOLD if ECB will confirm the 27.5% story, we will fly

the sooner you realize that 1 ) they do not need foreign investment ( witness .5% interest rates for the last 3 1/2 years certainly not what you would call an attractive investment ) 2 ) the Japanese do not want foreigners to hold Japanese assets 3 ) that the Japanese hold alot more trump cards in the poker hand against america 4 ) on a whim the Japanese could destroy American financial markets .... the better off you shall be for the excercise

Well then we better get the bailing bucket and give a them a hand

There is a sea world of difference between the 2 nations....The American house of cards is built on a foundation of debt .....whilst Japans house is built on wealth ....when all is said and done debt ain't worth bull dung:}

are you serious?? Japan based on wealth versus US on debt?? sure we have too much debt, but then Japan tried to value 1 acre in Tokyo equivelant to South Dakota, mineral rights included, LOL!!!

Japan has NO oil reserves, hard to run a country w/o energy. I just don't see them as the all powerful economic powerhouse that you do, what am I missing??
Saudi Arabia has plenty of oil you consider them an economic powerhouse ?
infact so does indonesia ....are they an economic powerhouse?

which is exactly why they have become the bankers to practically the whole world

there's in incredibly complex interplay going on, we are all interdependent now, at least until someone manages to win all the chips OR takes a 'just nukem' approach to complexity reductionism. on oil, no one thing does not make a powerhouse, same goes for cash. I remeber the late 80's and professors ringing the cry 'the 21st century will be the century of Japanese dominance as shown by their manufacturing excellence', just before they went into a 10 year depression!!

If they are to be faulted for making some bad loans it is because they have lent money to countries who are unable to repay their debts the final analysis perhaps Uncle sams creditworthiness ain't much better than Indonesia'

The US premise is based not on wealth but on people. freedom allows ideas to compete , allows human nature to choose, rigid control-based governemtn structures simply cannot adapt quickly enough to win in the long run. even the communists in china turned to market based practices to feed their people while having no intention of relinquishing power. absurd, but as long as folks try to dominate one another, it will always be the same & the US advantage will continue. or until our system is so completely perverted as to render it indistinguishable from any other power-hungry form of governemnt.

please elaborate on ECB gold story... 27.5% is LOTS bigger reserve than expected??

gold was weak although physical demand strong because people believed no one wanted or needed gold and CB's will sell all. if the ECB believes gold a guaranty for stability thats realy bullish

Concerns about Russia's financial status were raised again after Standard & Poor's lowered the nation's long-term rating to B-plus from double-B-minus, citing a significant weakening of fiscal and external payments flexibility.

looks like I was correct on Russian assesment ....Japan and Germany are against any new loans and prefer to let the titanic just sink ....

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:22 - ID#24135)
Peace in our Time ..
Cmon Cristo ..
Be generous .. these guys cant sleep ..
now Blooper and Zeke ( and their counterparts Billy
Ray and Clyde ) got them so scared of the f-16 that
it'll take weeks to get them right again ..
If you just surrender the island peacefully they
let you have plenty vodka .. and they're bringing
platoons of natashas.. How can you go wrong ...
PLUS this will settle the whole problem of

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:23 - ID#373284)
Midas_A - left side of frame...just type in TNX and OROP hit enter and voila'

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:31 - ID#22650)
anyone: have opinions or tips on gold convertible bonds?
Hve not seen mention of it previously here and am looking for a move up and this seems a way of best of both world's- income and possible appreciation

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:38 - ID#210235)
@Speculation on Chinese devaluation of Yuan
( Quote from MSNBC news )

The bankruptcy lawyer, who asked not to be named, said that Chinese banking officials have told him they are considering a 7 percent devaluation of the yuan in the second half of the year to reclaim some of the competitive advantage. Still, while the government's official line is that it will not devalue, the concern is evident.

Cut and paste these two lines together for URL, and fix hxtp:



(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:40 - ID#227290)
Midas & Penny Stocks

My opinion remains that the larger producers will do well first, until the market fully believes the gold rally. Then the pennies will start moving more. Right now, strength in gold is not being reflected in the pennies.

A few weeks ago, I wrote about Global Mineral & Chemical ( GCO.Alberta ) . It has moved from bid .12/ask .14 to its current bid .17/ask .19. It is to begin drilling next week in a small program that I think has an excellent chance of giving us a big and positive result.
The reason I think this is because it is not drilling in virgin territory, but in an area that much metal has already been struck but for which the market is giving it no credit.

And then there's Lyndex Explorations ( LYDX:Canadian Dealer Network ) , which has done very poorly so far this year. It is bid .14/ask .17 with 154 million shares but a known resource of over 3 million ounces, management that can finance the program, and shares that reached C$.92 last year on the drill program that found the gold.
At some point, when gold has reached a certain level unknown at this time, the market will recognize the value in this mine and believe that it will be put into production. Then I expect the shares to rise a long, long way.

There is also Guyana Goldfields ( GGFI:Canadian Dealer Network, C$.70 ) . This company won't be into production until 2000, but it has one mine and has just acquired a property that I believe will be its second one. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for the press release to come out announcing drill results. "Any day now," I trust.
This is one of the premier up-and-coming mining companies that I think will one day trade for several dollars.

Also, Explorations Mirandor ( MIQ.Montreal, C$.34 ) . Kinross began drilling its Nevada property on June 1. This summer should see a lot of news and the development of a minable deposit.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:40 - ID#269469)
I'm showing a $3.50+/ounce reversal
in the last 20 minutes, any traders care to comment?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:44 - ID#330209)
John Disney
Already got plenty Russian vodka and plenty Natashas. I could agree if there was more Russian pickles involved and plenty reunification.

PS Also plenty higher RANGY price!

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:46 - ID#24135)
It was fun while it lasted ..
For Digger ..
My comments were posted an hour ago ..
see 10:55

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:46 - ID#229277)
sharefin: lots of info in your excellent post
"on a whim the Japanese could destroy American financial markets ..."

True, but don't forget the US trump card: "Sell your US treasuries and we'll just have to tighten our belts with respect to military spending, specifically on keeping the peace in Asia, specifically on keeping China from taking ownership of the oceans in the area."

Not a pretty balance. Does anyone doubt how much the Japanese hate this deal?


(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:48 - ID#212197)
Herr WetGold: Vielen Dank fur Ihre Interessante Antwort.
You wrote:
"NOW - LISTEN TO THIS - The Billing Systems were the first adjunct processors to be Manufacturer Discontinued ( MD'd ) when these
problem surfaced ---gone history."

My question/problem:
Basically you state here in my understanding that parts of the billing system have been cut out from the features which formerly were performed by the switches .."..when these problems surfaced..".
Do you really speak of Y2K related problems when you state this? Does that mean that the telecommunication industry, as far as the manufactorers of switches are concerned, have redesigned their switches and in this context redesigned the interface to billing, because the Y2K related problems have surfaced a long time ago?

And if YES: Do you personally believe that all ( or almost all ) switches in USA are Y2K proof?

I'm working in Washington D.C. My American born wife has imported me to this coutry about 9 years ago, because she wanted to be with her parents in their old age. I'm very happy they are still well. So I'm still in the middle of experiencing "the adventure America", which will be, I hope, only a segment of my biography and not the end of it.

But YES, we met in Munich and we got married in Berlin.


John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:50 - ID#24135)
There's no such thing ..
Christo ..
as too many Natashas ..
Im sure they can come up with
lotsa pickles too .. Have a heart..
These MiG pilots are SHOOK ..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:54 - ID#240331)
Flop.....Duisenberg declared at 17:33 that ECU will be backed
10 to 15 pct gold.....Spot gold now 297.3...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:57 - ID#240331)
Seen the gold chart ? IMHO we shall see again 280 before 300...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 11:59 - ID#66136)
PAGODA Converts will work if cash flow is a major part of your strategy
They will not move with the common early on due to big spread from conv value. Suggest limit orders as they play with price. Will work out great when a long bull move arrives. Research cash coverage.

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:00 - ID#24135)
... That ..
For Jimx67
.. makes two of us..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:00 - ID#240331)
ooops... 17:33 is Paris time, i.e. 11:33 E.S.T.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:03 - ID#266105)
@head out window, breakfast on the ground

Quite a reaction in gold stocks to Duisenberg pronouncement.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:03 - ID#240331)
Sold Harmony and Randfontein short at their top 2 hours ago...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:05 - ID#287186)
For Kitcoites wondering how nuts I am about the millenium predictions.
Scallion - I do not take him seriously at all. But I have not read his book or bought any of his stuff so take my opinions with a grain of salt. He may have started with a few lucky predictions but he has since gone overboard on the predictions stuff {to build up his commercial image?} and has thus has missed a lot of them. Do a web search under the name Scallion. Especially with the less selective search engines like Alta Vista - you will get lots of hits on reviews and critiques of his "predictions". There are some folks who take Art Bell's site, Scallion, Zachariah Stichen {spelling?} and the Biblical Prophecies very seriously. Me - well maybe there is something to all this. Especially when the Hopi and other native tribes elsewhere in the world have their own ancestral predictions which may be independent of the feedback loop that Judeo-Christian westerners like Scallion et al are tied into. All this just adds yet another reason to take out an insurance policy in the way of food, etc. I don't plan on being raptured {spirited away before the "Tribulation Time" when things get rough} - I'm not one of the faithful. One person I know of who is one of the faithful has expressed the belief that he and his family will be taken care of - whether this is "raptured" or not I do not know. Maybe he just believes he will be provided for. Nevertheless, he laid in 60 pounds of honey as part of his storage. Maybe he plans on making a lot of mead.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:07 - ID#229277)
Guessing future gold prices
I've been reasing the chart masters and pro traders here for about six months now. The charts say "up" and gold goes up or with seemingly equal frequency goes down. Reminds me of an aquiantance who told me he bets only on the dogs not the horses: "There's a guy riding the horse. He knows where his horse is supposed to come in."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:11 - ID#376309)
E-Mail Address
To Tom Drake & Tom Dotson. If you are out there please e-mail me with your current address. I have been tring to e-mail both of you but my current e-mail address for you does not work.

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:11 - ID#24135)
Way to go ..
jimx67 ..
God you're good .. Cover Harmony
at $3.25 ..
Suggest July puts Homestake
strike 10 or whatever.
If you prefer take puts XAU ..
Genetic advisor's target of 78.7
must have been touched ..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:13 - ID#348286)
@10 to 15 %. Those M-F'ing idiots can't even DECIDE!
This is the typical european decision I was always afraid of.
If its true, the Gold countries lost out big time.
Britain did and still calls the shots, and they aren't even part of the
Hear it now, the EURO will FAIL big time.
The $ US will sqaush everything in it's path, and especially
The europeans sabotaged the Gold market, and they continue to do so
without pause......

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:17 - ID#390415)
5% an hour makes investing an expensive hobby
At this rate, my gold shares will lose all their value by tomorrow morning.

However, the curve seems to have leveled off at a $5 ( =5%in stocks, typically ) drop. Maybe the upward trend will re-establish itself.

Someday, somehow, the market is going to realize that there are only a few hundred workdays ( 300 or so ) to get all the software that runs the world fixed.

Humidity in Albuquerque hit 9% this week. Should have left my dehumidifier back East.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:17 - ID#376309)
John - Thanks for your advise! I bought 30 Hm July 12.5 puts for 1 1/5 this morning. They are now trading 1 3/4 bid - at 2.0

Hm Could really crash at this point IMHO!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:17 - ID#266105)

Forgive them, they know not what they do.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:18 - ID#338228)
Duisenberg, speaking...10-15%

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:21 - ID#243166)
To me, the XAU isn't acting THAT bad. Am I missing something?

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:23 - ID#24135)
Good one ..
For Glenn
I agree .. Homestake is vulnerable.
More so than harmony ..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:24 - ID#266105)

Baby's new shoes.

Frustrated indeed.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:26 - ID#233181)
too late...
I posted june 7 17:39 with a story re: Euro reserves. Regretably, I was unable to invoke a single response to what appeared to be a valid question. Apologies for an attempt to breach the walls of this fine and exclusive, cliquish band of wandering gold bugs. No grapes, sour or otherwise.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:26 - ID#206298)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:28 - ID#404189)
..carefull. A German national has accumualted a 7% stake in HM..takeover?


(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:29 - ID#269191)
ECB's gold holdings are irrelevant.
I think the percentage of gold in their reserves is meaningless. The
real depressant for the gold market is the high level of real U.S.
interest rates which encourages forward sales and the carry trade.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:33 - ID#187109)
hmmmmmm....I've seen that movie before......
gold 280 before 300.........sound familiar? ( D.A. ) .....there are more takers for some action? ( wink ) ..... w/w


aurator......i knew that's just a matter of time before the merkans win the world cup......... ( haha ) still waiting for my first prize.......btw, put my second batch-o-beer down yesterday....she's a Pale-Ale......and looking good. used leaf hops this time and bagged 'em. hops smells awfully familiar to it's cousin and it's sticky too......the seeds are similar. saved a few and will plant......what the hell......uh huh. also used hard water from faucet outdoors...indoors is too soft. will keep you and jims posTED.

go gold...... ( ? )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:33 - ID#187218)
ALBERICH__A @ 11:48
I will guess you work for Bell Atlantic BUT this is my assumption. IMHO ... Let me clarify some things:

You posted ( 1 ) : ,, "... parts of the billing system have been cut out from the features which formerly were performed by the switches .."

You posted ( 2 ) : ,, " ... have redesigned their switches and in this context redesigned the interface to billing, because the Y2K related problems have surfaced a long time ago? ... "
RESPONSE ( 1 ) : the billing mechanism that collects billing information on a call has not been 'cut out from the features'. There's an extremely in-depth process to prioritize feature development that I will not address because it is too lengthy and irrelevent. The mechanism by which information is acquired has been is adjusted to handle the additional information in software tables. This is no different than adding a new 'call record' to the database for a new type call arrangement and this is also Market-Driven. To be short - a software fix that is very common in this area of the switch. NOT a large problem - done deal.
RESPONSE ( 2 ) : ,, There are not recommendation for new interface designs based on any Y2K issue. The hardware connectivity to the billing systems are handled with propriority protocols and hardware specificity varies amongst the numerous Bill System companies.
Aside from this stuff ,,,, Munich is one of my favorite place to be. I've been there on personal holiday, as well as, business. Ever think about going back after your 'fill' of the 'States' ?
ALBERICH__A: Could you tell me in what capacity you are employed so that I may better understand the nature of your questions. We've been going on since last week and I feel that you are not convinced that REAL work is being done and completed regarding this matter ,,,, TIA .

Auf Wiederhoeren!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:34 - ID#243166)
Are we all looking at the same HM, aka Homestake Mining? I would be BUYING around this level ( 10ish ) not shorting. Am I crazy?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:34 - ID#206298)
percent of ECU gold backing
Even if the Euro were backed at 10% gold, there isnt enough gold available to do that at $300..00 per ounce and have an economy the same size as the United States. Ten percent backing is a lot.

Gusto Oro
(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:34 - ID#377235)
Yes you did. The XAU was very naughty.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:38 - ID#266105)

We've yet to determine if you've lost your home
and are also living under a bridge. Personal
financial carnage is the main local entertainment
and only source of glee. Question-- are you a
credentialed masochist?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:38 - ID#187218)
RANGY @ $0.81 getting real close to my $0.75 and below the 7/8 posted earlier today ,,,
I'm feelin' good and ready to make another move ,,,,, think I'll add some more limit orders ,,,, down, down, down ,,,,
This is an emotional bottom and we need to get on it before the mood swings ,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:39 - ID#342315)
Midas re Euro etc
I agree with your posts. In the short run, the hype will get the Euro up. but for big money looking beyon the foreseeable future- the Euro has nothing in itself to offer. Plus the haggle over taxes and budgets looks like an insurmountable hazzard. Like the t--d in the punch bowl. IE it seems to me like a couple of bad spark plugs and a timing belt ready to break.
I have to agree with Preacher re juniors on a gold move. They are best played for exploration results which come out excellent = + or die with poor results. If you want to "gamble", CLN and AYM should have some ? results out by the end of the month +/- The Hatt commented on CLN being cashed up some by Jap buyers. I think there are quite a few private individuals and co.s that have creamed off a bunch of cash and are looking. They may be Jap or otherwise. MHO only.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:39 - ID#206298)
@ Speculare
You need to look in the mirror and you will see your sour grapes. Just because you didn't get a response doesn't make us a click. And furthermore, add your comments for awhile without expecting a response, and maybe you will get some. Otherwise, go to a different URL and insult them. OK. Thank you.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:39 - ID#340459)
@MoReGoLd - Man I feel the same way, I sold my last bunch at 15K loss today, I still have PM mutuals
I dont know what to do, ECB is tail wagging bitches that take their orders from US.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:41 - ID#269191)
ECB gold holdings.
The figure is meaningless for two reasons: ( 1 ) the Euro is a fiat
currency so it's not really "backed" by anything other than hot air
and ( 2 ) the ECB effectively controls all member nation's monetary
reserves and can veto any sales. The "excess" gold held by the
European Monetary Institue will be returned to member banks.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:44 - ID#187109)
post again mate.....sometimes the wandering willburygoldbuggerdudes get wrapped up in other stuff. Perhaps the topic of the moment was not gold related......maybe regarding swiss cheese or the fourth horse in the second race at Epson Downs or that Y2K looming disaster thingy or farting in the bathtub.......or something important like pickles and vodka and long legged svelt ( sp ) things........... ( some of my favy subjects ) ......wait 'till the subject reverts back to gold and then ask again........anyway, hang out some more, it's still a nice place to hang your hat........ the grind


(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:44 - ID#187218)
I bought 95% of my HM shares while in single digits -- I slightly added to it a month-or-two ago ,,,, if HM goes to single digits ,,,, I'm buying big time ,,,,, Generally at these prices, though, HM is a buy !!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:46 - ID#57232)
10% - 15% Euro gold backing
All: No surprise. The Europeans are far more interested in jumpstarting their economy, now that the financial belt tightening for Euro elegibility is over. I think they are betting to suck resources away from the US dollar by having a strong economy. Strong European economic system == strong EURO. I suspect that is the way they think, and a little inflation along the way to grease the skids, all the better.

Also, they can say they were thinking of going to a gold standard anyway -- later -- when talk of an Asian or Moslem world gold backed currency starts to really heat up. So - no real competition for the US dollar - yet.

I wonder -- how will silver do? Do we have to wait for CRY0 to bottom? Perhaps not.

Anyone know why Hong Kong is dropping? Has the Yuan devaluation on the black market exceeded the previously known 7%? Interesting times. Hard to be a gold bug in these deflationary times.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:48 - ID#208393)
Turn-on-a-dime Paradigm
The 10-15% gold reserve for the Euro was anticipated and generally accepted on this forum months ago. The lower number did bring the price of gold down THEN. Today's action reflects the new turn-on-a-dime trading paradigm of shorting whatever did well on the previous day. Today, any excuse will do to stampede to the other side of the ship. Meanwhile the poor laggards are getting their pockets cleaned by programmed trading as they try to follow the stampede's direction.

IMHO, the inherent strength will eventually shine through.

BUY and HOLD. GO Gold!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:48 - ID#210235)
Here's your post of a couple days ago:

Speculare ( pdeep ( UK rates ) ) ID#233181:

Copyright  1998 Speculare/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

You or anyone else see the late Fri. Reuters

story on Spain's contribution to the ECB of

4.9B U.S. of 71B domestic reserves, to be

11.4% of total ECB reserves.Concerning Spain's

share, article goes on to state: "The majority

of that total is likely to be denominated in

U.S. dollars, with a small proportion held in

gold, analysts said."

What's to happen with the vast amount of

excess reserves? If they pledge not to sell,

how can they lend L/T when producers are

closing out hedge shorts? Australia

and Argentina are not directly part of this

Euro equation although they went ahead and

bailed out too. As one of the bankers said,

bonds offer a better return on reserves. Any

thoughts on this, and I don't mean (

THOUGHTS! ) like "another"

Interesting questions. I imagine anyone here would have to spend at least an hour to research and write answers to your questions. How about doing it yourself and offering us the benefits of your work? Look forward to it.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:49 - ID#348286)
Did a fast calc on the numbers - NOT GOOD!
Assuming: 300. Gold,
10% ECB Gold holding,
32K Ounces in a tonne.

5,200,000,000 / 300. = 17,333,333

17,333,333 / 32000 = 541 TONNES ! Did I make a mistake?

This is NOTHING, my grandmother could buy that !!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:50 - ID#340459)
Is the ECB figure of 10-15% final or are they still dicking around, the lousy f^&k heads
What the heck is their plan ?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:51 - ID#187218)
10-15% backing is better than 99% of the world's gubmints ,,, still better then $U.S.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:52 - ID#243166)
Thanks for the HM comment. I like BMG myself, but HM IS a buy around 10. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't goin' nuts, or if I am ( was ) , I'm not ( aren't ) the only one.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:54 - ID#340459)
@MoReGoLd - The Big question is what are they going to do with left over gold in the vaults - have
agreed not to sell it or what ?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:55 - ID#187218)
Woody__A ,,,, everyone on this forum has some quirk that they are willing to
discuss openly ,,,, you fit right in ,,,,, be careful - advice you get here may be detrimental to your emotional health ,,,,,, aside from this --- One rule to live by: : : ,,, keep buying the gold paper to augment to physical ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:56 - ID#348286)
There is still an off chance that this is a ruse to get legitimate Gold longs to sell so big shorts can cover up. Remember that we still don't know what the real Gold short numbers are - Venorosso said it could be
as high as 8000 tonnes? We just don't have the information......

(Tue Jun 09 1998 12:58 - ID#206298)
@ Mo
I come up with 5000tonnes of reserves needed for $52billion reserve

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:00 - ID#243166)
Look at is this way; now, if they finalize at 15% we'll all be happay as flys on stink.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:00 - ID#340459)
Gold reserves of major countries.
Data Derived from International Monetary Fund Statistics -
Gold Reserves
Million Ounces
Gold Reserves
Long Tonnes
$ Billions
$/Oz Gold
Price @ 25%

























3,840 ( A )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:01 - ID#340459)
disregard my garbled post below

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:01 - ID#254201)
Silver & Gold
The price low for the July Silver correction I posted this morning ( 9:53 ) is already in at 5.29. I would expect a sideways market for a few days before a push to 7.75 - 7.85 next week. During this time Gold should work its way back up to 300 and fail again between 300 - 305. I sold my silver contracts this morning at an average price of 5.43 and bought them back at 5.30.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:01 - ID#25171)
This 10 to 15 % backing is, as I mentioned many times, just for ECB reserves.
There is a big difference which seems overlooked here between reserve backing and money supply backing. The ECB reserves are NOTHING in relation to money supply. ( about 1% )
It is 50 billion EUROs which will be used to stabilise the EURO in case of financial turmoil.
The money supply is what makes a currency.The EURO itself was never supposed to be backed by GOLD .The impact is psychological. When big shorts realised that there 0-5% target would be dwarfed they switched to a 30% target. It is just like revised earning estimates for S&P 500 .They are being lowered to keep the ball rolling.
THE BULLISH FACTOR: now that the ECB has taken effective monetary control, there won'tbe anymore European related GOLD sales for 1 to 2 years. Now is the best time to buy or to buy more.Soon, the market will realise that an enormous weight has been lifted from its chest

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:02 - ID#206298)
I think you did make a mistake. Your figure is only 5.2 billion

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:04 - ID#229277)
Cats and dogs sleeping together to crush the dollar. But don't underestimate the US monster machine. It is big, but it turns on a dime. A copper clad dime, that is.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:05 - ID#348286)
ECB reserves were said to be 52 Billion, 10% of that in Gold would be
5.2 Billion, like I said , nothing.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:07 - ID#286279)
oris - KB&G
Have plenty of B & W but keep running out of TPPs. Aikidoman offers to juggle beer cans in the alley for us to shoot.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:10 - ID#390415)
Hi yo Silver
Donrey Capital Bureau

CARSON CITY - U.S. economic sanctions
imposed against the world's largest importer of silver will affect the
commodity's price and the bottom line of Nevada's mining industry, a
university professor predicts.

But the effect of sanctions imposed on India by President Clinton is only one of a range of world issues that could favor depressed precious metal prices in the months ahead, says John Dobra, associate professor of economics at the University of Nevada, Reno.

The Asian financial crisis is contributing to the problem, and the Indian
economy and currency already were suffering before the sanctions, resulting in a reduction in the demand for silver and gold, Dobra said Wednesday. "But I don't mean to make light of the sanctions," he said. "It's not good news."

Sanctions were imposed after India tested five nuclear weapons on May 11
and 13. The sanctions do not preclude Indians from buying U.S. produced
silver or gold, but they depressed the Indian currency even further, making such purchases less likely.

While silver is not as economically important to Nevada as gold, several
mines produce primarily silver and have benefitted from a recent resurgence in its value that saw it reach more than $7.50 an ounce in February, up from a low of $4.29 in July.

Edgar Smith, vice president and general manager of the Coeur Rochester
Mine northeast of Lovelock, the second largest silver producer in the state, said he is concerned about the effect of the sanctions.

India imported almost 128 million ounces of silver in 1997.

The Coeur Rochester mine, operated by [ Coeur D'Alene Mines Corp. ] ,
produced 6.7 million ounces of silver and 90,000 ounces of gold in 1997. It
employs 266 people.

"The sanctions are a concern to us," Smith said. "It could have an impact.
We're hoping the price goes up, so the sanctions are a threat to that."

Smith's optimism about the price is due to a report released earlier this year
that the demand for silver continues to exceed the supply.

Silver demand exceeded supply from mine production and the recycling of
scrap by 198 million ounces in 1997, leading to reductions of bullion stocks,
according to a report issued by the Washington, D.C.-based Silver Institute.
It was the ninth year supply failed to keep up with production demand, the
institute's report, World Silver Survey '98, added.

It was this type of analysis that prompted legendary investor Warren Buffett
to purchase 130 million ounces of the commodity, or an estimated 15
percent of the world's silver supplies. The purchase was announced in early

"India annually consumes about as much silver as Warren Buffett bought,"
Dobra said.

Following the announcement of the Buffett purchase, the price of silver
jumped to its 10-year high.

The price has been on a slow decline since then and was at $5.21 an ounce

Mining is an important industry in Nevada. The value of all mineral
production in Nevada in 1997 totaled $3.3 billion, according to the state
Division of Minerals.

Gold production hit a record 7.85 million ounces in 1997, third in the world
in production behind South Africa and Australia and up 12 percent over
1996. Silver production totaled 24.7 million ounces last year, also a new
record. Nevada is the top silver producer in the United States.

The metal mining industry employed 14,758 people statewide and had a
payroll of $734 million for the 12 months ending Sept. 30, 1997.

The higher prices for silver seen in the past several months have been a
major boon to the Coeur Rochester mine, Smith said.

"Anything is better than what we were seeing last year," he said. "The higher
prices give us a good opportunity to make some money."

With the price heading downward again, however, Smith said the key to the
mine's success is to reduce the costs of production.

In addition to Coeur Rochester, the other big Nevada silver producers are the McCoy/Cove Mine south of Battle Mountain, which produced 7.1
million ounces of silver in 1997, and the Candelaria Mine, south of Mina in Mineral County, which produced 3.9 million ounces of silver last year.

For the most part, however, silver is a byproduct of gold production in

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:13 - ID#187218)
Attorney client priviledge is being mishandled in the media....
If the argument being sent to the Supreme Court is to waive attorney/client priviledge in any one of the Clinton affairs for Vince Foster - IT WILL BE REJECTED ....

The priviledge is paramount in our law -and if removed- is a larger problem than WaterGate, Viet Nam War, and other national disasters.

I have not seen the briefs BUT hoping that the Media is wrong....

The proper path is to argue the use of how an elected official and his/her paid government lawyer are to be able to utilize the priviledge when a criminal offense has been committed. There is precedence in several state Appeals venues that the SC can rule on and crystallize consensus.

My feeling is the media is purposely confusing the citizenry using frightening non-sequiturs to un-related losses in civil liberties. A tremendous loss in civil liberties is to eliminate the Attorney/Client priviledge ....

I look forward to reading the actual court documents ,,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:16 - ID#288369)
@Midas.....hand me yo' BUD, pal.................
I gots' ta' tell ya' Midasman............I LUV' YA' MAN!!!!...You're funnier than shat! ( gulp to ya'! )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:20 - ID#317193)
Euro & Gold...the saga continues...on and on and on...
I loved the no decision has been reached part with a comment about a consensus of 10%-15%. If you can read between the lines they said gold would be kept under $300 as long as possible this year.

The question is can they do this past August-September. I doubt that they can. Quite frankly, I would not be surprised to see spot gold rise above $300 within the next week. While unlikely, if this occurs, Disney may not get Harmony @3.25. At least not this year.

Kind of reminds me of the Belgium gold sale a few months ago or how about the Swiss announcement...again... and...again...of gold sales. There was no decision made on the gold to be held and you will not have the answer until late this year. Goldbugs are ruled by fear and the CB's know it.

No, I'm not back in mining shares yet...but I will not wait for $250-$280 gold either.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:22 - ID#212197)
@Herr WetGold: Y2K Stuff
Lieber Herr WetGold:
Please stop guessing where I'm working. You seem not to have a feeling for how dangerous this is. Just respect that it is dangerous.

Anaonymity is the only way for me to be able to participate in a public discussion about the Y2K issue.

We are all struggling to come to an assessment concerning the three major key industries on which the functioning of our civilization depends upon as far as the Y2K bug is concerned.
- telecommunication
- electrical power supply
- banking.
The interconnections between these industries are basically clear to this forum. If one fails, the entire civilisation has a breakdown.

I can only contribute from the narrow corner where I have expertise, as far as my management duties have left me leverage to be in touch with details. I repeat: I'm involved in making business software in one company of the telecommunication industry Y2K compliant.

Please tell us, what is your personal assessment as far as long distance switches are concerned?
It's o.k. if you feel you don't want to tell. But say it, please. Or, if you are personally convinced that they will work: please say it.
Or, if you know for sure that they are all Y2K proof: please say it; and if so, please give your assessment for why the public isn't told.
Your experience is extremely valuable to all of us.

Now I repeat from earlier posts what my own assessment is as far as business software is concerned. Business software can be made compliant.
It is a very expensive process, but it can be done. Why?
Because the code can be analysed and remediated and tested.
What means tested? It means that the remediated systems can be run on computers in which the system date can be manipulated ( = the Y2K event can be simulated ) and the behaviour of the applications can be tested under these simulated conditions.

Only 40% of our business software would work after January 2000 if we would not go through this painful and extremely expensive process. ( For business software-- client/server environment, ORACLE database ) this costs close to three million $s, for the operational software ( the telecom traffic ) this costs at least 12 million $. But the operational side of the house cannot perform these reliable testing concepts which are possible for business software.

My feeling is, the operational side of the house will not make it, based on difficulties which I have described in earlier posts.

Ich hoffe wir koennen bald einmal in Muenchen zum Oktoberfest ein Bier zusammen trinken und ueber die Y2K Probleme lustige Witze erzaehlen.


Good ol' boy
(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:23 - ID#26362)
Can it be that the POG is the same as yesterday? Anyone have a current number.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:25 - ID#288369)
Would someone please estimate how long the BANKERS have known that the Euro would have 10-15% gold reserves.........what are the chances that this "info" was already assimilated into the current POG? And, how many confidants of the BANKERS were well positioned to catch this little market swing? Banker=dog Me=tail ( for just a bit longer ) ..........

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:26 - ID#187218)

The 1040 form that you receive in the mail used to have a section in the front, usually in the Privacy Act section, that "mentioned" that the Income Tax was "voluntarily" payed, or used the oxymoron, "voluntary compliance" and sometimes even mentioned that the tax was self-assessed. In a little booklet put out by the IRS to brainwash school children into believing that it was their patriotic duty to pay income taxes, the word voluntary was used repeatedly. WHY? Because under the laws of the U.S., paying income tax IS voluntary. If it wasn't, they would certainly say so. They CAN'T say so, in writing, because a manditory income tax would be instantly unconstitutional. Income tax is also the only tax that is SELF-ASSESSED, for the same reasons. Under the law, if a tax is not first assessed, it cannot be owed or collected. If you don't assess yourself, you don't owe any taxes. Look at the Privacy Act notice in your 1994 1040 booklet they sent you. In paragraph 3, it says that they have the right to ask for information under sections 6001, 6011, and 6012a. That is true as far as it goes. These sections are NOT IN Section A ( Income Taxes ) , and there is no cross reference to section A, because they cannot apply to income taxes under the law. These sections have nothing to do with the income tax and the IRS knows it. This is pure and deliberate DECEPTION on the part of the IRS. It gets worse. Notice that they say that you must file a return or statement for any taxes that you are LIABLE for. What they don't tell you is that NEITHER section A of the Internal Revenue Code, nor any other section, nor any other law of the U.S., MAKES YOU LIABLE for any income taxes. They want you to ASSUME that you are liable for income taxes so you will asses yourself for them. The word LIABLE is not in the income tax code. Under the law, you cannot be assessed for any tax unless the law first makes you liable for that tax. This is not a mear technicality or oversight. The Internal Revenue Code MUST avoid establishing any liability for individual income taxes because it would be unconstitutional.

Contrary to common misperception, the Sixteenth Amendment did not authorize the collection of individual income taxes. According to the Supreme Court, the admendment did not amend the Constitution, but mearly established the income tax as an indirect excise tax. ( Brushaber b. Union PacificRR, 240 US 1. ) According to other decisions, the term "income" for legal tax purposes can only be applied to CORPORATE PROFITS!

In fact, there is no law on the books ANYWHERE that requires you to: File income tax returns, Pay income taxes, Have anything withheld from your wages, Keep books or records for income tax purposes, Show or provide your social security number to anyone except the Social Security Administration, Provides for criminal penalties for "income tax crimes", Grants jurisdiction to federal courts to try people in criminal cases ( only civil cases ) dealing with income taxes, Authorizes employers or financial institutions to withhold income taxes from wages, interest or dividends, Authorizes the seizure of any property with regard to income taxes, or Compels you to let the IRS look at your records! Not only that, but there are many court cases supporting the above claims.

Other than that ,,,,, have a nice day ,,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:26 - ID#267276)
Gold Price
Just logged on, can anyone tell me why gold price has reversed since this morning? What is it now? Thanks

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:26 - ID#340302)
Oh, Terrible, terrible Angst....
....amongst the goldbugs!!

Hi, guys, I just had to post again knowing that the Euro announcements today would cause the goldbugs all kinds of misery and terror.

Special Hellos to Little Gritty Bum Bum, Disskneed, Jeillo, and RotJerk.
I miss you all.

Just remember what I posted many months ago....

1 ) Gold price already discounted the worst case scenario of Euro gold reserves ( around 5% ) ...thus gold fell to 280.

2 ) Gold analysts eventually came to consenus that Euro gold support would be in the 10-15% area. Thus gold reversed its downward trend and consolidated in expectation of termination of European gold sales.

3 ) Gold shorts used standard revisionism to create market expectations of approximately 30% gold support. Few if any gold market pundits ever realistically expected such a high figure; yet, this little reality did not stop gold shorts from trumpeting the absurd notion of 30% support.

4 ) Now that gold support at 10-15% is announced, the gold shorts are running around screaming, "Oh, what a disappointment!"

Actually, Oh, what a huge boring yawn!




Sing it with me....

If it's just five, gold stays alive.
If it's just ten, then gold's your friend.
If it's anything more, then watch gold roar.


So is Buffett, Soros, the Bronfmans, et al.

Gentlemen, keep the faith...don't let the bastards get you down.

Gee, I wonder who was pushing gold up this morning...yuk, yuk, yuk.


Gentlemen, thanks for all the kind comments. Life's distractions are keeping me very busy but I'll post again when gold is at 330 ( won't be long! ) .

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:29 - ID#252127)

Talk is that intial reserves backing the Euro will be the equivalent ( $45-$55 ) billion, depending on the actual number of participants ( some may back out ) .
Using $55 billion, and 10% gold at $300 gives
18.33 million ounces.
At 20% and 30% just increase the 18.33 by 2 or 3 respectively.
In any case none of the above are very much, unless when the Euro is full blown, they keep at least 30% backing.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:31 - ID#36156)
Good to have you back, F* ... you were missed.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:33 - ID#210235)
@Maybe we should have one of our own

Unsuspecting Executives Become Fair Game in 'Buzzword Bingo'

June 8, 1998

Ray Mundt, chairman of Unisource Worldwide Inc., has just learned that some of his employees have been playing a popular game called "buzzword bingo," in which participants track the jargon their bosses utter during staff meetings.

"I don't know," Mr. Mundt muses, "how this is going to interface with the communications side. I think it will deter from it."


Word Play

The '90s are supposed to have given the world the transformed workplace -- employees who embrace liberating technology working in organizations themselves liberated of hierarchies and craving the team input of the working stiff.

Maybe so. But in cubicles and conference rooms at companies from annuity sellers to paper distributors, drones and peons are slyly mocking the new corporate culture -- and their cliche-spouting bosses. One of their weapons is an underground game called buzzword bingo, which works like a surreptitious form of regular bingo. Buzzwords -- "incent," "proactive, "impactfulness," for example -- are preselected and placed on a bingo-like card in random boxes. Players sit in meetings and conferences and silently check off buzzwords as their bosses spout them; the first to fill in a complete line wins. But, in deference to the setting, the winner typically coughs instead of shouting out "bingo."

"Buzzword bingo arose as a reaction against half-truth and responsibility-dodging" in the workplace, says former Silicon Graphics Inc. software engineer Chris Pirazzi. When Mr. Pirazzi, now a software engineer elsewhere, worked at the high-tech company, he wrote bingo cards featuring phrases like, "At Stanford, we ..." ( In Silicon Valley, it's hip to let people know you attended Stanford University. )

The game, by all accounts, began at Silicon Graphics in Mountain View,

Calif. Tom Davis, a scientist and one of the company's founders, says that one day in early 1993, he was sitting in the office of a friend who had scrawled corporate-speak on his blackboard. A light bulb went off, and Mr. Davis wrote a computer program to generate bingo cards filled with the jargon he had seen, plus motivational cliches like "Step up to it." He says he coined the name "buzzword bingo" and passed the cards along to colleagues with a note written in the spirit of the new game: "The ball's in your court."

His employees took the ball and ran with it. Since then, the game has spread up and down the corporate and governmental landscape like an out-of-control empowerment session.

High Speakers, Hijinks

Seniors at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology played bingo at a graduation ceremony two years ago when Vice President Al Gore spoke,

feverishly marking his buzzwords, including a Gore perennial: "information superhighway." Mr. Gore came prepared -- someone tipped him off before his appearance. When students cheered after he uttered the word "paradigm," the vice president then asked, "Did I hit a buzzword?"

During a later speech by British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Labour delegates played a decidedly U.K. version called "New Labour, New Bingo." Their handmade cards included some of Mr. Blair's notable platitudes: "stakeholder" and "greater say." Blair spokesman Godric Smith says of the bingo episode: "Real high-minded, big-picture stuff."

Someone eventually sent a copy of the game to cartoonist Scott Adams, inspiring its appearance in a Dilbert comic strip. "It's subversive," says Mr. Adams, who admits to using the word "optimizing" in a recent conversation. "It's as naughty as you can get without getting fired."

Indeed, as far as anyone knows, nobody has been fired over buzzword bingo, perhaps because it's usually played below the radar of corporate superiors. In some cases, peers use it to loosen up meetings: At First Colony Life Insurance Co., Lynchburg, Va., annuity salesman David Doran recently told eight co-workers that they couldn't leave his meeting until they used all the buzzwords he had printed on a flip chart -- company-handbook argot such as "voice of the customer" and "what's our

deliverable on this?"

As the meeting dragged on to an hour, "they were all trying to steer the conversation to use all the buzzwords in one sentence," Mr. Doran says. "It was hysterical."

Even some bosses sympathize. At Unisource, a paper distributor, Mr. Mundt, the chairman whose own employees play the game, says, "I can understand why workers are playing because I have heard a lot of speakers

who are basically boring or they're not saying anything."

Goring the Cliche-Speakers

Ridiculing double-speak, in fact, is the singular object of the game for many. Software engineer Spencer Sun says he got colleagues to play at a San Francisco firm owned by a corporation he identifies as "Big Evil Parent Company." The chief executive arrived to deliver "thinly sugar-coated bad news" about declining sales. To boost the troops' spirits, Mr. Sun distributed buzzword bingo cards before a meeting with the CEO "as a way of thumbing our noses at the whole thing."

One day last fall, Seattle paper saleswoman Joyce Boewe figured she was in for another dull meeting and decided to liven things up with a rousing

bingo match. Before the meeting, and unbeknownst to her bosses at Websource Inc., a unit of Unisource, Ms. Boewe quietly handed out bingo cards filled with corporate-speak such as "core competency" "partnership" and "net net." During the meeting, the staff unobtrusively checked off target words as they were used by various speakers. Whispers and smiles shot through the room.

Then things abruptly turned cutthroat. Saleswoman Susan Rowe "started asking the speakers leading questions to draw out buzzwords that were on her own card," says salesman Hume Crawford. No matter -- Ms. Rowe says her efforts were in vain when too few buzzwords got used and the game ended in a stalemate. She thinks, though, that her questions might have won brownie points. There is, she observes, an apple-polishing aspect to buzzword bingo: You can excel at bingo while appearing to hang on to the boss's every word. Certainly, "it keeps you awake" during dull meetings, she says.

More than a dozen Web sites now sport game cards that Internet surfers can download, often free. Web-site designer Benjamin Yoskovitz says he is writing what he calls the "Official Buzz Word Bingo Rule Book." One modification he is devising assigns points to buzzwords; employees tally scores at the end of meetings if no one hits bingo.

It may, in fact, be time for some rule changes. The game can easily get out of hand. Four employees, of Inc., a St. Paul, Minn., Internet company, have been playing a covert marathon game at staff meetings for nearly three months. The employees rigged their Palm Pilot hand-held computers to churn out new cards whenever they have a meeting.

When a player wins, the computer will make a melodic beeping noise.

To date, the beep has yet to sound, indicating a need to reprogram the computers "to create more winning opportunity," says Eric Miller, one of the players, letting fly with a buzzterm of his own.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:36 - ID#402148)
Are those the EDPAR/BRASCAN/NORANDA Bronfman's you say are accumulating gold? I have notice those Bronfman's sold their gas and timber holding to buy & expand metal production. Thanks.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:40 - ID#57232)
I'm waiting for the Chinese Yuan devaluation
Farfel: I too am optimistic about the trend of gold long term, and like the leverage of gold stocks. But the commodity price index won't bottom for a few months, and the Chinese Yuan devaluation is looming. Also the last time we had a major disruption in gold was around Oct 97 when Hong Kong and the rest of SEAsia headed south. Even the US markets had a pretty good twitch. Notice how the HK markets ( and Mexican/Brazilian markets are not looking good ) ? Being bullish on gold equities right now could be hazardous to your health. So I think I will do better if I wait for the Yuan to devalue, and then jump into gold. I'm holding into my silver stocks regardless, as I think the price of silver is on its way up. You might want to look at APH's posts -- they say essentially the same thing -- but in technical terms, not fundamental terms.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:47 - ID#347235)
Welcome back I guess? Your discourse today is much calmer than usual maybe you needed a break. SHalom to you.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:49 - ID#187218)
ALBERICH__A @ 13:22
I apologize if my constant information gathering process is causing some discomfort - I shall cease this line of questioning ... it is in my nature and will be aware henceforth ...
RESPONSE ( 1 ) : ,,, as far as your 3-legs - I do not know power grids and associated infrastructures in-depth and therefore decline to provide a detailed analysis here ,,,, the others I know well.
You posted: ,,, " ... Please tell us, what is your personal assessment as far as long distance switches are concerned ? ... It's o.k. if you feel you don't want to tell. But say it, please. Or, if you are personally convinced that they will work: please say it. Or, if you know for sure that they are all Y2K proof: please say it; and if so, please give your assessment for why the public isn't told.
RESPONSE ( 2 ) : ,,, I have a definite opinion that I've shared openly - that is - problems were recognized; problems resolved; on-going efforts continue; no major disasters in the future related to Y2K. PERIOD. Why the public isn't told is, in large part, because no-one wants to believe it. Take yourself - I've outlined ( in a very detailed fashion ) over the past week answers to all of your questions you've posted. You still ask questions even though you are 'in-the-business'. Imagine now those people who are not in-the-know --- they are forced to listen to Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, etc to get information. Who's supplying them with information ? --- Gary North, Ed Yourdon, contractors, consultants ...... I don't recall any media network that showed an alternative view - why ? - It's not in the best interest of the New Rooms and/or contractors.

At the expense of being repetitive ,,,, I'll do it anyway ,,, there will be NO life-altering or life-threatening scenarios in excess of those inherent today related to Y2K ,,,,

You posted: ,,, "Ich hoffe wir koennen bald einmal in Muenchen zum Oktoberfest ein Bier zusammen trinken und ueber die Y2K Probleme lustige Witze erzaehlen ... "
RESPONSE ( 3 ) : ,,, you got a date - I would much look forward to this. Danke!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:54 - ID#358318)
Will Euro CBs sell more gold?
Are European CBs required to NOT sell gold after the level of
reserves is decided? I'm not so sure...

I had a look at the Maastricht Treaty - Protocols:

"ARTICLE 19 - Minimum reserves"

"19.1. Subject to Article 2, the ECB may require credit institutions
established in Member States to hold minimum reserves on accounts with
the ECB and national central banks in pursuance of monetary policy
objectives. Regulations concerning the calculation and determination of
the required minimum reserves may be established by the Governing
Council. In cases of non- compliance the ECB shall be entitled to levy
penalty interest and to impose other sanctions with comparable effect."

"19.2. For the application of this Article, the Council shall, in
accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 42, define the basis
for minimum reserves and the maximum reserves and the maximum
permissible ratios between those reserves and their basis, as well as
the appropriate sanctions in cases of non-compliance."

Note that there are both minimum AND maximum reserves. Is this what
is meant by 10-15% gold reserve, i.e. 10% minimum and 15% maximum?
Or is it that minimum reserves shall be 10-15%, then what of
the maximum? Will reserves be aggregate so that the
proportion held in gold is up to the CBs, or will the
proportion held in gold be laid down in the regulations?
Perhaps the basis for precious metal reserves could be
an aggregate of precious metals, with the amount solely
in gold being up to the CBs! ( A link with Warren Buffet's
interest in silver?? )

Clarification is needed, for me at least!

"ARTICLE 23 - External operations"

"The ECB and national central banks may:
establish relations with central banks and financial institutions in
other countries and, where appropriate, with international
acquire and sell spot and forward all types of foreign
exchange assets and precious metals; the term "foreign exchange asset"
shall include securities and all other assets in the currency of any
country or units of account in whatever form held;
hold and manage the assets referred to in this Article;
conduct all types of banking transactions in relations with third
countries and international organizations, including borrowing and
lending operations."

So, the European CBs can sell as much gold as they like- as long as they
keep within the MINIMUM and MAXIMUM reserves.

URL- must reconstruct---

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:55 - ID#410198)
Farfel....about time welcome back,now get to work :)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 13:59 - ID#255217)
Run for cover.
Yep, Farfel's back.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:00 - ID#402148)
Silver 6.85 USD or 7.85
% USD next week? Thanks


(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:01 - ID#57232)
Two factors in gold price: 1) Devaluation 2) Dollar/gold carry
All: If we really want to understand the gold market, we must separate out the unpredictable from the predictable.

1 ) Devaluations: Gold fire sales from deflationary events cannot be predicted regarding the when, but they will happen. Could be Hong Kong, Russia, South America, even Europe. So we should be ready for the twitches.

2 ) Dollar/gold carry: We are told by FV that 8000 tonnes of gold are being loaned -- mostly by CB's. Now that the EURO looks like a weak threat to the dollar for some time, what could affect the dollar/gold carry trade? I don't know, but I'm hoping our fellow kitcoites might have some insight on how much longer the price of gold can be held down like this. Just how much more gold can the CB's loan out? I don't think they can loan it out twice, at least.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:01 - ID#350179)
On a beach in Cyprus...
Officials: More than $25 billion smuggled out of Russia

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:03 - ID#252127)
Euro, Y2K and the rest of those diversions

The Euro backing speculation is just to keep you
quessing and only well financed traders should be
involved with such crap.

It's no quess that the Asians wished that they had a lot of it ( gold ) during the past couple of years, than their damned debt on real property which produces real things but is encumbered by paper.

Forget about Y2K, wars etc. The whole question is about owing paper nothings for things, the things that the paper mongers want in their hands to control you ass.

Best default on the bastards and have some gold or well run unencumbered PM producers.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:04 - ID#286279)
Hi farf
Don't forget BLAH/BAH- Buy low and hold or just buy and hold.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:05 - ID#187218)
Uebrigens: ----Der Struwwelpeter UND Max und Moritz sind ein Bekannte von mir ,,,,, Erinnerin Sie dieser Kinder ?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:11 - ID#410198)
Ever wonder if Washington cooks the books,in todays NY POST I rest my case

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:11 - ID#255217)
Did I read you correctly? Silver @ $7.70 - $7.85??? Next WEEK? I do not take your posts lightly. I hope you're right! I have been hanging on ( to silver ) for dear life, hoping for a miracle. THAT would be a miracle.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:12 - ID#187218)
Jack @14:03 ,,,, " ... Forget about Y2K ... " ,,,,,, I hope we can stop this too ,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:16 - ID#269207)
tolerant1 check it out
Mexican President Zedillo is complaining about countries violating other countries laws ( thru UN Authority no doubt ) for the sake of enforcing their own countries laws ( Clinton was seen to WINCE ) . I think he was referring to 26 Mexican bankier being indicted ( no American bankers ) for money laundering by Los Angeles Grand Jury. Of cousre whe Price Waterhoouse was caught buying a half million in discounted black-market U$D, Justice only seized $150,000.00 of it, and criminal charges were preferred.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:21 - ID#194311)
Late breaking euro news!!!!!!
Brusells June 9 16:45 ( Rueters )
In a suprise announcement before the close of the business day ECB bank chairman Wim Duisenberg sought to soothe the troubled waters of the gold market by clarifying offhand statements made earlier in the day. He suggested that 10-15% reserve currency backing of the new European monetary unti, the euro, by gold would only be a minimum and that this could go as high as 40% if the bank deemed this necessary. They would not be bound by current negative sentiment towards holding physical assets as a currency reserve backing as this had proved effective for over 200 hundred years of currency stability for Switzerland. "The fact is that gold below 340 US dollars would have to be viewed as a buying opportunity and this is how the bank sees it."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:28 - ID#254201)
Big error - should be 5.75 - 5.85

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:28 - ID#25171)
Welcome back farfel.
Higher lows in GOLD. Last year , with such" bearish news" ( intended to be bearish I should say as the market psychology has been actively reshaped ) , the drop in price would have been in the 10 to 20 $ range.
We lost only 4$ this time and we didn't test any low.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:28 - ID#229277)
WetGold: You're right. Everyone is working really hard to fix stuff -- see below and comments
"Sunday June 7 7:36 AM EDT

Diebold to slash work force

CLEVELAND ( Reuters ) - Diebold Inc., the leading U.S. maker of automated teller machines, on Friday said it would cut about 8.5 percent of its work force and may take a charge against earnings for the company's realignment.

The North Canton, Ohio-based company said it would eliminate 500 to 600 jobs out of a total work force of 6,700.

Diebold said its business was suffering because of the banking industry's recent consolidation wave and a focus by its customers on so-called Year 2000 computer problems -- possible glitches in older systems reading dates after the turn of the century.

The company said those two issues were diverting bank resources that might have gone toward deploying more ATMs."

The banks are cranking on fixing their systems. The FDIC is pounding on them and little banks that can't afford to fix their problems are getting bought by bigger banks. Too bad for companies like Diebold taht sell to banks. They can't get a sale in edgewise with all the Y2K money and human resources getting spent. I'm comforted to hear that you -- someone with experience -- can guarantee that everything important will be fixed in time so we won't experience any problems. Thx.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:29 - ID#32078)
Today's action in POG
After seeing the $5 dip today from top to now I am wondering what is going on. Either:

1. the rally yesterday was a fake, even after pulling Europe/London in this morning ( PM quote up $5.90 ) , and we are about to fall out of bed, or

2. This dip is a fake, and someone is trying to make us think we are about to fall out of bed, and we are about to have a really big rally, or

3. The war between traders is climaxing, and there's no telling what will happen, or

4. The word got out that Farfel was back, and that was all it took.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:30 - ID#343171)
can't find the news you refer to, what is the site address?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:30 - ID#269207)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:32 - ID#402148)
You pullin' our leg?


(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:34 - ID#307271)
Great find ! Now this is what we already knew was going on. I just wonder how much physical was picked up in the last few hours by the big guys. This was not just some misunderstanding on our part--we were meant to hear the lower amount only.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:38 - ID#212197)
@WetGold: Mein lieber Freund, Herr WetGold...
..ich wuerde mich freuen Sie persoenlich kennenzulernen.

If you will be around in the Washington area please contact me.

On a personal level I wouldn't have a problem to explain to you the entire background of my concerns. But I cannot do it publicly.

I like your bold statement. But I do bot share it.

Please contact me:

The above e-mail address leads to my home computer not to my office.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:38 - ID#187218)
EJ @ 14:28 ,,,, consolidation in banking is now blamed on Y2K ? ,,,,
OR is it the nature of the business cycle ,,,, for the 'Why-Too'Kay' promoters - the answer is obvious ,,,,, big corporations are bad to buy mom-n-pop in an effort to increase their revenues ,,,,
You posted: ,,, "... guarantee that everything important will be fixed in time so we won't experience any problems ... " ,,,,,,, I've never made such a claim ,,,,,,
This is old news and posted here on Sunday ( or maybe Monday ) . Small companies with antiquated infrastuctures or with tremendous growth opportunities have always been a target of the larger guys ,,,, Banking consolidation will increase within the next year ,,,,, FOR the BENEFIT of the CUSTOMER ,,,,,, gotta' luv' it !!!
Thanx for the vote of confidence and verifying my thesis ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:39 - ID#402148)
Anyone got an adress on tthat Brussels late news?


(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:47 - ID#343171)
kiwi has been out in the sun too long, could not find the story and XAU hasn't seen it either. funky sense of humor...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:52 - ID#286284)
Kiwi news flash

I haven't seen it either. The news broke apparently at the "close of the business day" in Brussels; Kiwi's post came about four hours later. That ain't a news flash.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:54 - ID#394218)
Kiwi-Time Travel
Can you get also get stock quotes 2.5 hrs in the future. Cruel joke

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:54 - ID#24135)
Tough is tough
to sam
Even an F-16 cant get Aikido man.
He smiles at close tolerances.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:55 - ID#350179)
Gold price down on ECB gold reserves news
still lookin' for kiwi's ; ) I'll check in a couple of hours...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:55 - ID#329186)
The BBC & Y2K
I have no idea how many brits visit Kitco ( all sound US,OZ or Kiwi ) however tonight BBC2 had a program called Disaster 40 minutes. Which will hopefully wake up a few people. major points were covered hospitals telecoms power etc the city , recession- and they mentioned the lack of info on Former USSR embeded chips suggested that asia's claims to be on target are down to face saving.The program was well presented and easy to follow even for the not so bright.

A month ago my local ( norwich ) newspaper claimed Norwich was well ahead with Y2K which confirms their lack of understanding ) .

Go Gold


(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:56 - ID#174239)
WetGold: Tax Evasion
I have always suspected there was something unconstitutional about the federal governmemnt taking such a large chunk of our pay.

However, I keep thinking about Al Cappone. Here is somone who got away with murder, smuggling, kidnapping, extotion, etc. for years, only to be brought to justice by the Treasury dept. for tax evasion.

I also seem to remeber some famous actress getting into serious trouble for not paying taxes.

If criminals and the wealthy cant find a way to get out of paying income taxes,how can the honest, hardworking middle class just decide not to do it any more?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:58 - ID#217268)
Executive Order
It seems I remember an Executive Order posted here recently that gives more power to the Federal Government from the States. Perhaps it was listed in the Free Republic web site. I further remember it takes hold on June 15 unless repealed by Congress. Does anyone else remember such a reference or know of its status ?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 14:58 - ID#233199)
@WetGold - pardon my ignorance, but

Why do so many get in trouble with IRS for "failure to report"? Is this just lies and rumours? What mistake did they make that they got "caught"


(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:00 - ID#194311)
Ok I'm busted for wishful thinking...
but makes you wonder doesn't it?

What would Duisenberg really be thinking, he's not stupid, 200 years stability vs burning fiats...pounds,marks, dollars,....

Rueters is not Reuters and Brusells is not Brussels

News is not news, but wow how information travels fast.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:06 - ID#36156)
Bart - Not entirely off topic... (hee, hee)
One Friday morning, a teacher came up with a novel way to motivate her
class. She told them that she would read a quote and the first student
to correctly identify who said it would receive the rest of the day off.

She started with "This was England's finest hour." Little Suzy instantly
jumped up and said, " Winston Churchill."

"Congratulations," said the teacher "you may go home."

The teacher then said, "Ask not what your country can do for you."
Before she could finish this quote, another young lady belts out, "John
F. Kennedy".

"Very good" says the teacher, "you may go."

Irritated that he has missed two GOLDen opportunities, Little Johnny
said, "I wish those girls would just shut up."

Upon overhearing this comment, the outraged teacher demanded to know who
said it. Johnny instantly rose to his feet and said, "Bill Clinton. I'll
see you Monday."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:10 - ID#410198)
pyramid....correction its a 90 day EO comes due and enforceable August 14,to understand
what it is you have to read Regans EO that was revoked,you are however correct it trashes the 10th.amendment I have both EO on my web page

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:12 - ID#187218)
J ,,,,,, I'm trying to get away from talking about 'Why-Too-Kay' ,,,, please don't
get me started on taxes ---- I'll have to start pulling the law books out and quoting references from the IRC ,,,,,,
ASIDE: ,,,, I'm not sure to which "tax-evader" you are referring but I know how Leonna Helmsley could have avoided prison time BUT I had no way to communicate with her or her attorneys ,,,,,,,,,,,, Ms. Helmsley employs thousands of people in NYC alone ,,, she is very wealthy and does not need money ,,,, when she was accused of evasion the media failed to point out that she had paid many millions of dollars in taxes in that year ( can't remember specifics ) ,,,,, the evasion issue was centered arround some questionable deductions that had occured PRIOR to the legislation being passed and making the allowable deductions unacceptable in a retroactive fashion ,,,,,,,,, My advice to Ms. Helmsley --------- Hold a press conference with your attorneys by your side and make the following announcement: ,,,,,,,
"... As a Corporate Taxpayer for ( XX ) years I have never been accused of misrepresenting the tax laws of this nation and have paid ( YYY ) millions of dollars in the past ( XX ) years because it is my duty and responsibility to do so. The Justice Department is accusing me of failing to 'make-good' retroactive taxes that I am willing to pay -however- the fines are well in excess of the actual principal. I am not willing to be a party to this kind of intimidation. THEREFORE, as of noon tomorrow, I hereby disband the entire Helmsley Properties and Management Corporation as it is in the best interest of the MY Corporation. Each employee will receive 4 weeks severance which is twice that allowed by law. I deeply regret this course of action but I cannot contine to be subject to the on-going intimidation and/or confiscation of my character as defined by the government... "
She would have never gone to jail --- it would have been settle out of court ,,,,
(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:15 - ID#434108)
good technical review of U.S stock markets, at CBSMarketWatch

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:18 - ID#29048)
Further commentary on recent Euro reserves news...

If the Euro reserves were 100% gold, there would still be enough left over in central bank coffers to give miners a 2 year holiday.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:19 - ID#231337)
kiwi... Not so Funny !!
Date: Tue Jun 09 1998 15:00

kiwi ( Ok I'm busted for wishful thinking... )

Please do not use this site for prank postings. There is lots of speculation on GOLD and goofy dribble like this just adds to the discomforting picture of the 'blinded goldbug'!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:21 - ID#25171)
WetGold 15:12
Good post.
I can hear the voice of the exasperated taxpayer. ( Who is not )
However , what a pity that little guys like me will never be able to intimidate the governments without resorting to unlawfull threats

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:27 - ID#24135)
Good one Kiwi
.. But when The Dutchman talks
about "consensus" what does he means..
.. It will really be about what
France and Germany want to do ..
.. If they are going to run the ECB
by "consensus" you can forget it ..
and the dollar will have no competition
at all.
.. I believe all this means is they
have not decided yet.. One must never
underestimate the inability of Europeans
to work together..
.. Someone out there seems to believe the
Dutchman is smart and responsible .. I
think not ..

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:34 - ID#187218)
SWP1 @ 14:58
These laws are designed to be extremely complex --- basically, there's confusion as a primer one needs to understand the difference between 'Voluntary' and 'Compulsory' and the laws which govern the compliance ,,,, let me just say that if the collection was not 'voluntary' it would violate the Constitution under 3 tax clauses.
I have been posting today while preparing for a talk tomorrow and have little time to look into my notes on this now ------ BUT ------ I will do so and provide much insight into this problem ---- I'm sorry, but, this is very time consuming and cannot multiplex this with the other stuff ,,,, right now ,,,,
,,,, also, I've had many, many discussion regarding the legal issue with lawyers ----- some agree ---- most disagree ---- but the facts speak for themselves ,,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:39 - ID#194311)
ORCA...get a grip.
If my pseudo news post was so much goofy dribble it should have been transparent. The really disturbing point is that all this SPECULATION is what has the world so screwed up.

The markets veer back and forth on so much as rumours, innuendo of some important figure, presidents and prime ministers talk about "talking a currency up" much more speculative do we want?

The "information" services put this slant or that spin on the news. My little foray into "news" was attempting to demonstrate how frail this huge toy has become. Besides Kitco is entirely speculative...I didn't realise it was anything else.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:47 - ID#230216)
guar-an-DAMN-tee ( ! ) ......and to all others who have said they will never post again........whatever...... ( even you sam ) ..................never say never....... ( never ) ..... watch this here gold thingy unfold...... ( slowly ) ...


PppppppppppphhhhhhtF* will not be posting again 'till gold reaches 330...... ( hmmmmmm ) ......that should do it for the year then.....uh huh.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:54 - ID#229277)
WetGold: I know you're trying to get off the Y2K thing, but I'm unclear on two points
Most of the bank consolidation is going on because stock prices are peaked out now and banks want to take advantage of this short-term opportunity to use their equity muscle to expand. This does not mean that there are no smaller banks packaging themselves up for sale because they can't afford to fix the Y2K problems with their systems. I know for an absolute fact that some are doing this because I am close to someone who does it for a living. He helps banks package themselves up for purchase for the only one reason: Y2K fix costs.

No one knows the impact of the problems that won't be fixed and I don't expect you to be able to. I tend to be optimistic, so I don't think we're all gonna starve. I expect that we'll have power. But I'm not so sure about the banking system. Not just because some banks and financial services companies won't be ready but because the telecommunications networks needed for their communications may not be sufficiently reliable to carry normal transaction loads.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 15:57 - ID#289400)
What is really speculative is the actual percentage of gold reserves that are going to create sufficient confidence in the Euro to make it a viable currency. What is the current reserve ratio in Germany? IMHO those are the people who will really decide.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:00 - ID#288140)
Forgot to mention Aikido man volunteers to juggle beer cans high in the air for pistol targets only, no shotguns.

Haven't been to a Hollypark or Santa Anita in many years. Last year I went to OTB at county fair. They only have ticket machines. Do race tracks still have old-fashion type ticket sellers, so I can say "Give me a 2-5-7 boxcar?"

I am supposed to be a lurker now, but I had to reply to oris and say something to farf, anyway it's back to the bar for me.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:06 - ID#286253)
Si Warehouse stocks down 504,000 to 87,409. Opened unch.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:06 - ID#288140)
sam_A is not me. Don't take no wooden nickels!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:07 - ID#187218)
EJ @ 15:54
You posted: ,,, " ... telecommunications networks needed for their communications may not be sufficiently reliable to carry normal transaction loads ... "
RESPONSE: ,,, from what justification is this statement derived ?

The problems the banks are currently having stems from the monopolistic attitude and failure of IBM in the 1980's , that is, there inability to recognize that 'distributed computing' and associated networking facilities have technologically advanced much further than the mainframes of yesteryear ,,,, if the mom-n-pops cannot afford to make the necessary changes it has to do with not maintaining an efficient and knowledgeable management ,,,, IBM sold these smaller banks affordable mainframes but held the mortgage for 20 years ---- now these companies are asked to 'make-good' on the loan and re-mortgage for new technology ---- IBM had put them there and now they bear the results of their poor decisions of the past ,,,, THIS IS THE FAILURE OF A MONOPOLY !!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:08 - ID#286253)
@sam: Sorry sam; is there quick way to change handles?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:08 - ID#215379)
the only way
we are going to get gold to go up is convince the populace that we do indeed have inflation, even if its only in financials ( equities, US$ )
So Kitcoites, spread the news...

John Disney__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:17 - ID#24135)
Bar chat
to sam ..
Aikido man is QUICK

To Kiwi ..
Watch out .. Murrstein may sue ..

To no one in particular ..
"backing" a currency with gold doesnt mean
anything if it isnt convertable to gold.
I think that when they begin to issue
financial instruments with the option of
gold convertablity .. THEN gold goes way
up.. This "backing" crap just adds to the
confusion and papers over just how vulnerable
paid out at maturity with toilet paper ..
that's the real problem .. not currency.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:18 - ID#217268)
robnoel@15:10 re: EO
Would Congress still be in session on August 14 ?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:19 - ID#187218)
Here's a way to make money ,,,,,,
Many years ago I read Curtis B. Dall's "F.D.R. - My Exploited Father-in-law" and have lost my copy - it is out-of-print ,,,,, I had someone search and a copy was found ---- just received a new copy which cost $28 U.S. for a book with sold for $1.00 U.S. in the 1960's ,,,,,,
,,,,,, good information is hard to come by but you must be willing to pay the price -- despite the costs ---- gold is no different, especially at these levels ,,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:26 - ID#288186)
Sam_a . Thanks for the Warehouse report. Here it is again including the
other Metals...
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for June 9

Gold 1,053,261 - 31,978 troy ounces
Silver 87,409,299 - 504,240 troy ounces
Copper 77,873 - 743 short tons
Will this help us get Silver up to 5.75/5.85 range? Like APH said,
we could be seeing silver in this area next week.
Also, that's a nice drop in Gold totals too! Go Gold! Go Silver!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:26 - ID#412286)
Given the
Anti-gold sentiment 10-15% aint bad. At least they view it with some importance. Wall St whispered higher numbers to create dissapointment at 300.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:29 - ID#20748)
Would like to hear your take on the day's events.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:33 - ID#229277)
WetGold: well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
It's not logical to me that the mortgages on these smaller banks are coincidentally coming due at around the same time. Anyway, I don't know anything about that. I know what my friend tells me and I have no reason to not believe him. He has no motive to make up Y2K as the justification for these banks putting themselves up for sale. He's in the Y2K optimist camp.

I also cannot name the telco where I have contacts who lately took early retirement and so are now no longer on Y2K projects. They didn't leave because they were afraid. They left because the packages are sweet, so they would have taken them anyway. They took the packages a couple of years earlier than they planned because leaving allows them to avoid taking responsibility for annoying, boring, no-good-for-your-career Y2K projects. That's the corp. culture there and why little has been done to date and why there will be serious problems. This particular company is known for their crashing networks under "normal" conditions. That's about all I can say.

No lawyer's going to try to hunt you down for saying how everything is going just great, so necessarily I have to be vague while you do not. That's one of the pardoxes of this problem, isn't it? Everyone's afraid to convey the truth because while it's not as bad as most will imagine without the truth, it's worse than most vendors can disclose without getting sued.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:34 - ID#269207)
Does or does not the treasurer have to accept precious metal, and can you demand he pay any balance he might owe you in US notes rather than federal reserve script?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:35 - ID#269207)
Irf this is true, then are you not "minting money".

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:38 - ID#347235)
Sam, Kiwi, Farful
Sam just e-mail Bart tell him what you want for new handle.

Kiwi, humor is good here on NAYTHING but POG!!!!! You gave a lot of faint hearted people coronaries with that one.

Farfel why don't you wait to post again when POG is either 225 or hopefully 500?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:39 - ID#286249)
Put aside, for a time, what governments will--or will not--do with/to
their currencies. The Princes of Davos are committed to gold--governments
will straggle along...

Why are the Princes committed to gold? Because they know...
"The abolition of gold clauses in private contracts by Congress in 1933 clearly altered contractual rights and obligations by preventing parties from being paid an amount calculated by reference to the price of gold. In the Gold Clause Cases the Supreme Court held that there had been no taking of property without due process of law, and reiterated that "contracts must be understood as having been made in reference to the possible exercise of the rightful authority of the Government" over the currency, and that "no obligation of a contract 'can extend to the defeat' of that authority."45 Significantly, the Supreme Court and the New York Court of Appeals signalled that this will hold true regardless of whether the contract is governed by the laws of the country whose currency is at issue and regardless of whether the contract is between nationals of the country issuing the currency.46 The New York court approved the action of foreign courts in enforcing the Congressional prohibition on the use of gold clauses in U.S.dollar contracts, and by analogy could be reasonably expected to enforce the legislation of a foreign country affecting private contracts whenever such legislation would be enacted pursuant to that country's sovereign power over its currency.47 Overall, the position of the New York courts is that "[a] currency regulation which alters either the value or character of the money to be paid in satisfaction of contracts is
not a 'confiscation' or 'taking.'"48
"The Legal Implications of the European Monetary Union under U.S. and New York Law", Neil Lenihan

1. BIS divorced itself from the Swiss Franc.
2. BIS adopted, as it currency of account, a MEASURE of gold.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:42 - ID#347235)
@ Sam-A

Sorry meant Sam A

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:42 - ID#327123)
This is the transcript of the ACTUAL radio conversation of a US naval

ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland.

Canadians: Please divert your course 15 degrees the South to avoid

a collision.

Americans: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees the North to

avoid a collision.

Canadians: Negative. You will have to divert your course 15 degrees

to the South to avoid a collision.

Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert

YOUR course.

Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.











Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:43 - ID#288186)
D.A. : Would like your take on the metals when you get a chance.
I believe it was D.A that also thinks we'll see Silver at 5.75 next
week. Also, D.A. mentioned that the Comex warehouse grade level for
Silver was of lesser quality. Have we seen a new low in Comex Silver
levels? I don't know for sure but I think we're close...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:45 - ID#286249)
The Princes accumulate gold--(big time)
"the fixed par value of 0.925 Canadian dollars to U.S. $1.00 in May 1970. As a result, the Canadian dollar appreciated against the U.S. dollar.229
In "ITT Artic Services vs The United States" 230 a U.S. government contractor entered into a 3-year fixed price contract in 1969 with the U.S. Air Force under which it agreed to provide various services to Air Force operations in the Arctic Circle. Because the contractor was required under the terms of its agreement to hire Canadian labor and to pay such labor in Canadian dollars, the upward fluctuation in the Canadian dollar following its unpegging from the U.S. dollar necessitated the exchange of a greater number of U.S. dollars in order to meet the contractor's Canadian dollar obligations. The U.S. Court of Claims refused to allow the contractor to adjust the contract price based on a provision in the contract that permitted an adjustment to reflect labor cost increases required and approved by the Canadian government.231 Citing the Legal Tender Cases, the Court stated that "in [fixed price contract] situations the payee party, absent a specific contract provision, assumes the risk of currency valuation changes."232
In addition, the court stated that "'[w]here one agrees to do, for a fixed sum, a thing possible to be performed, [one] will not be excused ... because unforeseen difficulties are encountered.'"233
[Legal Implications of the Euro, Neil Lenihan]

The Princes can not depend on the 'political good will' of any one sovereign currency. The XFO is a measure of a specific, singular element.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:52 - ID#288140)
It's not a big deal to me since I don't post much anymore, however, I think the handle "sam" may smell like vodka, pickles, stale beer, peanuts, old stogies, smokeless powder etc. for some time yet. If that bothers you, try asking Retired Soldier how to change your handle.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:54 - ID#411112)
pyramid,easy answer I'am not sure,congress does not need to be in session for it to take effect
however good question,I'am sure Michael Reagan is talking about it on his show to-day,it is another Pres. Reagan EO that has been revoked by Clinton,he posted my page this morning on his page question...why did he sign it in England,what does that really mean mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:55 - ID#373284)
first and foremost...CHAS...Namaste'
By personal hand of the barbarian your package is on the way...shall arrive 10:30 a.m. Wednesday...enjoy...gulp to ya...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:58 - ID#286249)
A "Stateless" Settlement Currency...the reserve currency of choice
Why the Gold Franc is, and will continue to be, the International Settlement Currency of the Princes of Davos-They need/want a 'stateless currency'.

"The State theory of money is widely recognized under the laws of other countries.366 Indeed, the recognition of the theory is so universal that it appears to form part of customary international law. In the Serbian and Brazilian Loans cases the Permanent Court of International Justice held that even though French gold franc bonds issued by the governments of Brazil and Serbia were not governed by French law, this "does not prevent the currency in which payment must or may be made in France from being governed by French law."367 This is because it is a generally accepted principle that a State is entitled to regulate its own currency. The application of the laws of such State involves no difficulty so long as it does not affect the substance of the debt to be paid and does not conflict with the law governing such debt.368 The recognition of the State theory of money under customary international law and its widespread acceptance by foreign states should help to convince American courts that the State theory is universally recognized and forms part of U.S. law.369
"The Legal Implications of the European Monetary Union under U.S. and New York Law", Neil Lenihan

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:58 - ID#252391)
Sequin and APH
Sound minds are yours. Is it true that the central bank sales will be curtailed for a couple of years. . Have you concluded that or have things been said that make that a certainty.

APH - sure hope you're right on silver getting through $5.50 after a little pause. Probably will be helped along if the sorty earlier than Comex stocks dropped another 500K is true and not another bogus "news flash"

Hey and this isn't even a delivery month for silver.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 16:59 - ID#317193)
Time passes but same old, same old...
At least it feels more like home with F* back. RJ, can you post from the boat? With a little bit of heart, that is. Not too much please, don't want to ruin your image.

The announcement, rather non-announcement, on Euro gold reserves was a non-event. Wait a day or two and everyone will be wondering when the real announcement will occur.

Officials from Germany and France will offer comments within the week, if not by Friday. Soon we'll have no idea on gold reserves. Which, if you think about it, is where we've been standing for some time. Coincidence? NOT!

Patience my son, patience.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:05 - ID#412286)
CB SALES are crap
They have sold and leased quite a bit. The problem for gold is demand. The current effort IS TO INHIBIT DEMAND which could easily overwhelm supply given money created. This is just the opposite of US stocks and bonds where EVERYTHING is done and said to encourage demand ergo the bubble. Gold is in fact a reverse bubble.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:07 - ID#194311)
ROR..a reverse bubble?
Gold is rubble?

hmmm has a ring to it, shall we spread the word, crank up the rumourmill.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:08 - ID#286249)
Warning--Hazardous Material
"Money has been introduced by convention
as a kind of substitute for a need or demand, and
Its value is derived not from nature but from law
and can be altered or abolished at will."

Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics. Book 5, ch 5 ( F.H. Peters trans., 156, 15th ed. 1893 )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:11 - ID#412286)
Market on close
Almost every major gold stock had a market on close sell imbalance much like option expiration day. Thoughts..,. Another even?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:12 - ID#317193)
I will not wait for Friday.......ASB!! Must play the old paper game. Yes?


(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:13 - ID#174239)
Tax Evasion and Gold
I have two comments:

1. A quick search of the internet revealed that WetGolds comments on the voluntary nature of Income Taxes is a Patriot issue. Right now I'm pospering well enough with the current oppressive government that I don't want to fight it just yet.

2. I heard of somone who convinced his employer to pay him in the face value of American Eagles ( $5 for the 1/10oz ) . Supposedly on paper it looked like he was making $625 a month. Since that is 12.5oz of gold he could sell it for about $3750. Surely the IRS has a way to get his income anyway don't they? Is there a capital gains tax on gold profits?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:15 - ID#43349)
Well, I just got back to see what's been going on and it looks like
there's been some action. I miss out on everything.

Gold has done very well. After the long awaited news from the Euro
front has turned out not to be the hoped for %30 or the maybe acceptable
%20 but rather the dissappointing %10 ( to %15 ) , gold closed
just a little lower than the day before but higher than the day
before that. Not bad.

Sliver, of course, held up well too.

Let us now wait together and see what happens with that particular
dark cloud no longer hanging over, yes?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:18 - ID#210235)
@A now a word from our new owners
Michael Camdessus on the big global plan. Please observe agenda for the UN. Also note: HE WANTS NEW POWERS FOR THE IMF! Why is it the guys with their hands in the cookie jar always want more?

"Finally, as I have already alluded, the Committee reaffirmed its view that the time has come to add a new chapter to the Bretton Woods Agreement by making the liberalization of capital movements one of the purposes of the Fund and extending, as needed, the Funds jurisdiction

for this purpose. It requested the Executive Board to pursue its work on this issue with determination, with the aim of submitting appropriate amendment of our Articles of Agreement as soon as possible."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:19 - ID#43349)
up up and away
I guess I'll go shoot some pool and come back later to see what's
going on in the overnight market. I have a sneaking little feeling
there ar going to be some surprises...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:22 - ID#194311)
SDRer...aristotle, aristotle....
was a bugger for the bottle. ( monty python )

This is a classic quote from one of the greatest logicians of all time....really makes it clear does it not?

I think a framed version of this should be sent to the Queen of England and ask her how she feels about having her image associated with the dishonest poisoning of society by corrupt money supply. This I feel is at the root of many of todays ills and it's obvious simplicity is painful in the recognition that very little can be done about it.

Oh how far we have wandered from the path of truth, when will teaching ethics to preschoolers become fashionable again?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:25 - ID#411331)
@BCIWN There are 12 troy oz in 1 lb. So a metric tonne is 12 X 2200 lbs or
26,400 troy oz.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:25 - ID#286249)
I'll pay for the frame, if you pay shipping. Deal? {:- ) )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:26 - ID#373284)
Prometheus, Namaste'
You little red meat eater you...A huge Island that is Long Gulp...of the BEST MEXICO has to offer to YA!!!...your post yesterday was passed to many who raised their glass in your HONOR...

Incense and candles shall be lit in your name...the flute playing low to match the flames...BRABO!!! Festivities again this evening...tonight we enjoy more from Kentucky and Maryland, some from Georgia...

Even the elders do not find it disgraceful to spit when they hear the name Camdesuss...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:28 - ID#210235)
@Hi, SDRer
I've been reading over your posts of recent days, and I'm putting on the dunce cap. I don't really see how the Bank of Jamaica was the Bank of Japan cause they shared initials. You must know something that I didn't pick up just from that reference. Anyway, looking for the Jamaica Accords ( which I don't actually remember ) I found that interesting Camdessus post I just put up.

Also, when you say "Princes of Davos" you mean the BIS, right? At first, I thought you meant the 2,000 guys who assemble in Davos each January for their annual global talk-fest. Now, If I've got this right, you have demonstrated that REAL financial affairs, such as currency pegging, as opposed to what Mozel would refer to as the Massa giving the slaves his scrip to use on the plantation, are always denominated in gold. Always measured in gold. And everything else is just Massa. Do I have this straight? This is fascinating stuff.

You are my favorite teacher, please don't get discouraged with me!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:30 - ID#270221)
@The Skeptical Investor
Wim Duisenberg's statement today was a 'trial balloon' with the intention of testing the reaction of the currency markets. However, 10%-15% must be what they do intend, and, unless the markets do react badly that is what we should expect.
I think that it is bad news as far as the price of gold is concerned, and am afraid that hoping that "it doesn't matter" is rather clutching at a straw. It was about confidence, and 10%-15% is a rather half-hearted vote of confidence. 20% or better would have driven the price of gold up. This obviously will not, and accordingly I have changed my call on gold from "cautiously bullish" to "neutral".

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:30 - ID#286249)
Prometheus--Check out this flow chart...
Enoy the significance given the august IMF! {:- ) )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:34 - ID#210235)
@Tol1, SDRer,
Thanks to you both, and a big Gulp at ya, too. BBL.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:36 - ID#359316)
Euro Gold Sales
Told you so: ( Date: Tue Jun 09 1998 03:12 ) :
Trinovant ( European Central Bank Announcement ) ID#358318:
Take it from me- they shall announce gold reserves as
"below expectation"...
Tuesday June 9, 3:51 pm Eastern Time
NY precious metals end lower on ECB gold news
NEW YORK, June 9 ( Reuters ) - COMEX and NYMEX precious metals futures
ended mostly lower Tuesday, led by a slide in gold prices after news
the European Central Bank ( ECB ) would likely hold less gold in its
reserves than the market expected...

From Speed's reference at 15:18-
Tuesday June 9, 12:06 pm Eastern Time
Gold price down on ECB gold reserves news
LONDON, June 9 ( Reuters ) - Gold prices fell on Tuesday on news that the
consensus among European central bankers favoured holding 10 to 15
percent of reserves in gold, traders said...

``Gold is one of the decisions which has yet to be made but there is a
consensus among the central bank governors that part of the reserves to
be transferred to the ECB will consist of gold'' he said, adding that
the percentage would be in the region of 10 to 15 percent...

Brokers GNI...
``The real issue is the degree to which ( national ) central banks can
conduct transactions without informing the ECB,'' it said, adding that
greater autonomy would probably equate to greater volumes sold.

It seems to me that the European gold reserve issue is somewhat more
complicated that usually painted... the level of gold reserves to be
held by the ECB is one thing. That's the 10-15%. The rest stays with
the national CBs. The rules that govern what they do with their
reserves are yet to be published. The third issue is reserves held
by "credit institutions". I'm not sure about these but assume they
are institutions such as ordinary banks who must have reserves at the
CBs governed by rules that are yet to be published...
The point being that what has been said amounts to very little...
How long can this jawboning game be carried on?
If the controls on what national CBs do are set loose ( remember the
fuss about 'convergence' rules, when the currency bands were
widened to allow states to 'comply'? ) then the market will be
very much ASB.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:37 - ID#411331)
@ TYoung: I also detect gross manipulation in the Wm Duisenberg announcement
of 10 to 15% gold backing of the EURO. Ten to fifteen percent is a lot!
It's a lot more than the US$!
I also believe that the ECBs are trying to keep the POG down
to $300 or less. Se my post about this at 6 am this morning.

LOOK AT THE TIMING PEOPLE! The POG has a strong run from $290 to
$301 in 36 hours, and out trots the president of the ECB with a
supposedly negative statement of "disappointing" levels of gold
backing. Give me a break. This is transparent manipulation to
keep the POG down to under $300.

It is a far more interesting to question WHY THE ECB IS TRYING TO
KEEP THE GOLD PRICE DOWN! Please read my post of 6 am today and
comment please.

Oh yes, welcome back Farfel.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:39 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.79 The 50 day moving average is 29.89

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:39 - ID#286249)
Prometheus--BOJ--the initials are not the story {:-))
The Bank of Jamaica IS the Bank of Japan.

One accesses Bank of Jamaica THROUGH Bank of Japan --check that url! Back-track it!

Bank of Jamaica's forex records are stored at Bank of Japan ( which is how I stumbled into the pit )

The contretemps of which you read yesterday was invesitagted by functionaries of the Japanese Minister of Finance. They are one!

Now, we wish to know, "WHY?"

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:41 - ID#345176)
rhody, 14.4 troy ozs. in 1 lb

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:42 - ID#252391)
Max ... agree
I have to agree that unless hte gold market shows some very good footing that the EURO announciemnt has to be regarded as neutral at best - the key will remain CB sales and whether they are curtailed for any period. That information will seap out. The large inbalance of sell order in gold stocks is interesting and could portend a high vloumn spike down tomorrow, especially in view of the weaker oil and CRB index.

News lows in the XAU, at least momentarily, tomorrow, look inevitable. I really suspect we'll go through some basing action in the mid 60's to 70 basis XAU without much lift until the dollar begins to fade.

Same old story - hard to get a two day rally out of these metals.t

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:44 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .250 The 50 day moving average is .273. My database contains 13 occasions where the XAU ended in the 73.XX range. Ranked according to the gold price, today is #10. The #1 ranking was on 12/26/91 with a gold price of $354.50, an XAU of 73.61 producing an XAU/AU ratio of .208

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:46 - ID#359316)
Norwich- um yes. They brough us "Sale of the Century" with Nicholas
Parsons, didn't they? That kinda tells it all.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:46 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 55.05 The 50 day moving average is 51.70

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:46 - ID#317193)
Posted this months ago. This is currency war. SHHHHHHH keep it quiet, we don't want the merkins to know.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:49 - ID#286249)
Prometheus--Jamaica Accords
"In 1975 the member nations of the IMF formulated a plan, known as the Jamaica Accords, to eliminate gold as the basis of the international monetary system.13
Effective April 1, 1978, the "Special Drawing Right" ( SDR ) was to become the sole reserve asset that IMF nations would use in their mutual dealings. The SDR was defined as the average value of a defined basket of IMF member currencies.14 In 1976 Congress [466 U.S. 243, 250] passed legislation to implement the new IMF agreement,15 repealing the Par Value Modification Act effective April 1, 1978."

We students now know just how successfully they ( IMF ) have ( NOT ) been! {:- ) )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:50 - ID#253153)
Oil price collapse and it's implications for the gold market
The price of oil today closed at $13.85. I recently completed a study
on oil producing countries debts and found the following :
1. Collectively , all the oil producing countries owe $150 B to the western
banks. The most vulnerable countries are Mexico, Venezuala ,Nigeria,
Indonesia and Algir. These countries rely primarily on oil revenues for income. Oil income accounts for 75% of their national income. As oil prices decline further below $14 perhaps to the $8-10 they will have to produce more in order to maintain the same level of income. As deflation accelerates I believe Venezuala, Nigeria and perhaps
Mexico will default on their foreign loans. Indonesia has already defaulted. Now lets talk about domestic producers in the US and Canada. The break even point for American oil producers is $13.
As oil sinks below this price, many of their employees in Texas, California, Colorado , etc will be laid off. How about the oil service companies and their suppliers. All of them will have to retrench. That is in addition the the manufacturing segment of our economy which is already shrinking because of Asian imports. A recession is about to begin in North America and that is VERY BULLISH FOR GOLD. Some of our domestics banks WILL be in trouble very soon.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:52 - ID#343171)
my biggest fear is farfels "gold will soon be at $330" statement, I remember the drubbing au took weeks back when he proclaimed how we were in for an imminent price rise. Luckily I sold barrick, getchell and euro-nevada in April and have missed all of the excitement

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:52 - ID#267276)
Using your xau/spot ratio could you explain what gold should be selling at today. THANKS

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:54 - ID#373284)
Nothing has changed my friend. The UN is nothing more than a place where the money chimps send their pie-holes to supposedly represent that which is "the" best for humanity.

I suggest that all states abandon the District of fact...what does the District of Columbia have but a bunch of pasty faced bastards that would spoon your child's eye out with a spoon for a debt which is neither owed nor real...

PUT THE UN in front of AMERICAN and you still get........................

UN-AMERICAN...any who support the UN clearly do not support FREEDOM and AMERICA...

A gulp to ya IS effort my friend...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 17:56 - ID#426220)
JP (Oil price collapse and it's implications for the gold market)

JP: I would like to talk to you about this via email. Pls contact me at

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:01 - ID#373284)
P.S. GET CAMDESUSS!!! That dog defiler...smeller of other people's bottoms
and wallet licker...GET CAMDESUSS!!! He still owes me for the horrible rash he inflicted upon my dog during that UN-natural rape of a happy go lucky unsuspecting AMERICAN canine...

And when he pays it won't be with worthless fiat, of that I can assure all of you...

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:08 - ID#43460)
rhody, common mistake anybody could make
Er, there is a difference between troy and avoirdupois ( avoir du poid ) ounces. The correct answer is more like 32,150.74 ounces per metric ton which can be calculated from Bart's tables.

Reminds me of the old story about the country shopkeeper who used to sell birdshot by the pound. He broke his scale so started to use a pint jar to measure, thinking 'a pint's a pound the world around'. Needless to say when word spread he had a run of people buying birdshot by the pint and nearly went broke selling it.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:08 - ID#269207)
Alas, camdsuss is no longer with us, no more wallets will he lick nor bottoms will he smell, he's been recruited by the UN to smell bankers butts and net-necropheliacs.

The Hatt
(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:08 - ID#294232)
What we all Forget!
Gold has always had a way of satisfying the investment needs of the contrarians and this time will be no different. If what we saw today was a full court press then my call is for a rally in the POG as early as tommorow. For every seller today there was a buyer and once the stops were knocked out the market settled. I am and will remain very bullish on Gold as I am certain sooner or later the paper game will come to an end.
The other factor one must ponder is how fast would the derivatives market come undone if gold were allowed to move below $280.00? If you want to expose the thieves in the night allow one default on a gold contract and the sparks will fly.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:11 - ID#43460)
Who is Camdesuss?
Is he some Ayn Rand character or something?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:16 - ID#317193)
You are a joy to read. Crazy or unique, I don't care I'm reading more.


P.S. posted my limit for a to beat the small white orb.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:16 - ID#26793)
The XAU/Spot ratio is not something that is helpful in predicting the gold price. Rather, it takes the gold price and helps to answer the question what are gold mining shares worth at the today gold price. It prices the shares in ounces; the ratio today says you are paying .250 ounces, 1/4 ounce of safe in-pocket gold to buy the XAU. In the past you have had better bargins than today. The ranking today is #10 out of #13. It says you should wait to buy shares ( XAU ) until they are cheaper; closer to #1.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:26 - ID#26793)
Gold and silver coin prices at 10:36 this morning.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:31 - ID#57232)
Oil producer collapse?
JP: Interesting post. Donald has been digging up stuff like this for some time. About Venezuela, and ( I think ) Mexico. I would differ with you on one item. This will not be bullish for gold until the price of oil bottoms, and any gold fire sales from affected countries are over. I think we are seeing the bottom of the commodity price index coming up fairly soon, as when some of these major oil producers default, oil production is likely to go down for a time. After that, I would guess that oil prices will start to creep up, even without an oil crisis. Interesting times. If you add Japan, Hong Kong and Russia to the equation, you would conclude that there a lot of deflationary reasons for gold not to go up, even if it does not go down. The US dollar will remain strong as long as there are deflationary events in other countries to come, and it does look this way for some time longer. The dollar will probably not drop until the final 'flight to safety' of foreign capital.

I think we need to be careful in analysing the behavior of gold in these deflationary times, as the last time we had such a collection of serial deflations the price of gold was fixed, and most of us had not even been born.

If you can, could you post a url or two to support your statments about these oil producers nearly being in arrears? I recall not so long ago reading that Venezuela could not pay its own federal phone bill. But, I do not know about Mexico or other countries.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:33 - ID#286249)
Promethus--Bank of Japan-Bank of Jamaica
Well! You may have a point, because I am not able to replicate the action either?
From a different computer, in a different country, I was "in" Bank of Japan and transported to Bank of Jamaica; the records were in Japanso now what? ( or rather, still why? ) Computer glitch? My error?
Either or both, but that still doesn't erase the records being what and where they were
So, I get the dunce award!
But I also got the records {:- ) )
And a mighty curiosity about the entire episode...
Andthere is a data there that should not be thereso, back to the tunnelsbbml

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:36 - ID#307360)
Trading precious metals in Canada

Would a fellow Canadian be so kind as to suggest the best institutions from which to buy/sell coins & bullion at the retail level? ( preferably in Western Canada )

Thank you.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:45 - ID#412286)
Stop referring to yourself as "Canadian" as you are A CITIZEN OF THE WORLD.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:49 - ID#217268)
Could you give us a perspective of the gold/dow ratio. For example, the S&P 500 PE long term ratio is 12-14 and today it is at 28.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 18:50 - ID#253153)
JTF---Oil price collapse
In my post I did not include Russian debt because Russia is not a member of Opec. Certainly, the Russian debt problem is another issue which will also drive the oil price down even further. All these events are just part of the long deflationary cycle which just begun. The info posted came primarily from bank statements which are publically available . You need to contact the SEC and request their 10k statements. The major banks are very worried about the debts of the oil producing countries as well as the domestic producers .

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:02 - ID#432157)
OFF TOPIC-Need good URL for 10k's on Corporations--Please

GO GOLD--for Bart

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:08 - ID#57232)
Oil producer defaults
JP: Are these bank statements the statements of OPEC countries? If you tell me which companies we need to get 10k statements that would help, but I do not understand what you are referring to in regard to Mexico and Venezuela, as these are foreign countries.

Are you perhaps referring to 10k's on American banks listed on US exchanges that are creditors to the OPEC oil producers? If so do you know which ones are worried? Donald is our banker sleuth par excellance, and he would be very interested in what I think you are telling me. Looks like we have alot more than the 1 trillion or so in debt defaults from the SEAsian events last year-- and the US ( and other ) banks that have exchange/credit risk. Any idea how much more debt we are talking about?

I wonder -- so far most of the bad debt reported has been from Japanese, Hong Kong, and European sources. But much South America debt comes from US sources. Is OPEC financed mostly by US and European banks? This sounds alot closer to home to me. Chase bank? JP Morgan, etc?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:12 - ID#288295)
geoffs @ 10k's
Have you tried this? I think you can get a free trial membership.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:16 - ID#34857)
geoffs - Try this one too ... it's the SEC's page, and it's free ...
Once there, click on EDGAR.

HenryD - Go Gold!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:17 - ID#57232)
I think I understand -- reread your post
JP: I think you are saying that the 10k balance sheets of a number of domestic US oil producers are reaching critical levels, and some of out US creditor banks are worried. I did not know it was getting this bad in the oil industry. This is indeed getting very close to home.

At any rate, if you could give me a clue as to which 10k's to look up, I would appreciate that very much.

Right now, alot of oil companies are high fliers -- Royal Dutch Petroleum, Exxon, Shell, etc. This could really make a dent in the markets if the '7 Sisters' took a dive in earnings. Of course, I guess the producers are the hardest hit, not the refiners -- who are probably getting windfall profits by not reducing prices. I sure haven't seen any effect on gas prices at the pump -- so far. So -- someone down the pipeline is making a fortune.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:18 - ID#210114)
ECB Announcement

Frankfurt--Jun 9--European Central Bank President Wim Duisenberg said today there was a consensus among ECB central bankers that gold would form part of the bank's total monetary reserves. The consensus was that it would make up between 10% and 15% of the total monetary reserves. By Lita Olbrich and Mirko Wollrab, Bridge News, Story .14933

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:18 - ID#341189)
@pyramid, Donald, if you will alow me.
Data on the XAU/AU ratio. These numbers are from the weekly closes from the beginnig of the XAU to last Fri. In those 756 weeks, the ratio's low was .168 on 7/25/86 with gold at 351.1. Its high has been .381 on 5/31/96 with gold at 390.9. The 1st quartile is .231, meaning that the ratio has spent 25% of the time at or below .231. The 2nd Q is .269 and 3rd Q is .301. This means that it has spent 75% of its time at or below.301.
It has spent a total of 10 wks ( out of 756 ) above .36 and 19 wks below .19. Hope this gives you a snapshot.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:21 - ID#238422)
We got a little problem today, yes?
But you are right, PMSP. The bad guy just skipped
the word " at least...".Tomorrow will bring the answer.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:22 - ID#253153)
JTF---Oil producers defaults
I'm talking about American banks such as Bank of America, Chase , JP Morgan ,etc that have loaned billions to the oil producing countries and domestic producers as well as European banks. It's really very hard to understand bank statements today because they are trying to hide their losses . I had an accountant friend helping me in trying to analyze these reports.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:23 - ID#57232)
Oil Producers
Studio R.: Are you lurking? Any opinions about JP's posts over the last hour or so?
Donald: I think you need to look at JP's posts. I know you are watching the big US banks very carefully. I wonder -- which ones are heavily invested in oil producer debt instruments?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:28 - ID#57232)
The Big US banks
JP: Thanks. These are the same banks that Donald follows very closely. He will be very interested in following up on this. Chase bank is already in some trouble with derivatives losses from the SEAsian currency crisis. JP Morgan too as I recall. Curiouser and curiouser.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:40 - ID#343171)
JP etc
Not only oil producing countries are at risk of collapse, I think all basic commodity producers are at risk, whether the entity is a country, region, company or individual. The contraction of economic activity due to the Asian crisis has spread to every one of their trading partners ( 2nd party ) , and that is hurting their trading partners ( 3rd party ) etc.. If gold cannot recapture its primary role ie a monetary instrument, then it will continue to trade like it has these past couple of years, as a commodity, sold under pressure into an ever weakening price base.

With Asian demand for GOLD drying up because of the huge loss of wealth from stock/currency/real estate implosion and sanctions on Pakistan/India hurting their ability to consume gold the probability of continued weak gold prices is high. A lot of entities that buy, hoard or mine gold will have to sell to make ends meet. IMO

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:40 - ID#384350)
@Aurator, EB, Olympic Gold Medal
I did some research. Nigeria Did win the Gold ( plated ) medal in the '96 Olympic Games. You were refering to Men's Soccer, weren't you?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:42 - ID#210114)
It's Sad Really............
The ECB announcement has left a few questions unanswered. Gold loans, freedom for gold sales etc.

It was however sad to see the reaction to kiwi's prank post. The way the goldbugs grasped for it like drowning men reaching for a life preserver.

Live Long and Propser. ( at 10 to 15% ) .

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:44 - ID#394218)
JTF - Whose making the profit on oil?
The contract price for gasoline has been running under 50 cents a gallon for some time now. Add 20% for transportation and distribution, a couple percent for the retailers profit and it's fairly clear the real money is being made by the tax collector.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:44 - ID#210114)
Buddy, can you spare me an Australian Dollar?
58.88 US cents.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:46 - ID#342376)
Comments from the Veneroso camp..........
A few dealers were told by one of the highest ranking Banque de France officials the number was 5 to 10 %. They got mega short and that is why gold tanked from $300 to below $290. Perhaps, they then got wind that they were set up ( the actual number was higher than they had been told ) , and had to cover, which is why we shot up above $300 again.
We still believe the EMU related selling is, or is about, over. Will let you know if we find out otherwise. If that is the case it should clean the air and the supply.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:55 - ID#253153)
CoolJing--I agree with you except for one point
As people in North America and Europe sense that a depression is beginning to unfold they will begin to pull much of their savings from bank accounts and move it towards safety. That safety will be found in gold. Markets usually anticipate events 6-12 months in advance and for this reason I believe gold and mining shares should be purchase NOW.
Domestic investors will replace users as primary buyers of gold and silver.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 19:57 - ID#256326)
To John Disney
the Kitco Kup for the day for pointing out ONCE AGAIN that gold backing or porker backing or toilet paper backing mattereth not. What we want is CONVERTIBLITY. Attention China or anyone wanting to make a big splash!

If backing is all that is at stake, let's just keep speculating in commodities. Duh.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:00 - ID#242135)

How it`s going big john, the end may soon be in site, just like the markets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:02 - ID#253153)
Forgive me for my spelling mistakes
Usually when I type these posts I'm talking to 3 different people at the same time on the telephone and sometimes I don't really watch what I type.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:14 - ID#431263)
If convertibility to gold is more important to a currency than gold backing, then why do we have 263 million ounces of gold stored away at Fort Knox?

Indeed, why do the values of all fiat currencies fluctuate against each other 24 hours a day when most are ALREADY convertible to gold on any given day based on the value ascribed to them by the exchange rate mechanism?

Conclusion: GOLD BACKING IS JUST AS IMPORTANT TO A CURRENCY AS GOLD CONVERTIBILITY! Both are required for fiat currency to serve as a safe and reliable substitute for gold the only safe and reliable store of wealth! DUH!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:15 - ID#253418)
Straws to grasp
Crazytimes' quote of Veneroso's people saying the CB sales are over, in their opinion, and the continuing decline in silver stocks at the comex are what's left between hope in these metals and total deperation.

If CB sales are over and silver stocks fall to new lows perhaps we won't see the two metals collapse, here, though the deflationary climate bodes poorly as we all know.

Extended basing period ahead for all metal and related shares with the possilbe exception of silver which will run counter on falling inventories.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:19 - ID#261322)
It seems to me that 10-15% was what the market was expecting all along. It beats 0. I believe it still determines that Germany, France and Italy will not sell their reserves. I still see a lot of blood in the streets, and perhaps I should be put away somewhere but sooner or later this bubble has got to burst and gold will move up. Hope it's sooner than later. As for oil, I doubt it will stay down for that much longer, and then inflation may come in to take hold. Too many countries are printing too much money-that's inflationary.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:21 - ID#187218)
EJ @ 16:33 ,,,, You are one of many that agree to disagree with me ,,, I respect that ,,,
I know many telco people and their 'sweet' packages and needless to say the general feeling of a corporate culture that has drastically changed since the break-up ,,,,,, I am very familiar with the organizational make-up and nuiances of practically every critical group within a traditional telco and also aware of how those organizations have changed ;;; some for the worse ;;; others for the better ,,,,
There have been many an ex-telco employee tell me their war-stories and most are valid ,,,,,,, the problems facing the telcos over the next 5-10 years will be the lose of their seasoned employees ( like your friend ) and not replacing them at an appropriate rate ---- the skill level of the average '30-year-telco-guy' is something that can not be replaced in the short-term ,,,, this is where the telcos are missing the boat ----,,,,,
You comments are appreciated !

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:23 - ID#45173)
Searched EDGAR database of SEC filings 1994 - 1998 for
mention of "Y2K" and "Year 2000" and "2000" and got... Zip. Zero. Nada.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:24 - ID#254112)
ECB: Gold Backing of EURO
Be realistic, friends of gold!
Germany has presently not even 3,000 tons of gold. That's approximately in current US$ a value of only $30 billion. That's very little compared with their "reserves" in thin air money. The German CB has about $90 Billion in US$ "reserves".
Now France has around 2,600 tons of gold. That's also not that much: approximately $26 billion.
Now add in the 2,500 tons from Italy and the rest. Maybe that adds up to 10,000 tons maximum which is only $100 billion in current US$ value.

That's not much for a currency like the EURO. If these coutries transfer all their gold to the ECB and we assume a gold backing of only 10% then the entire area of these 11 countries could only create EUROS for one trillion dollars in current value. That's very little.

So, my conclusion is: if they keep their promise and stay with at least 10% gold backing they must very soon either buy gold or the gold price in US$ must rise dramatically to keep the 10% balance intact. IMHO

Alberich the Dwarf

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:25 - ID#27341)
JP, 17.50. thanks,that looks right thinkinggggg.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:25 - ID#187218)
J @ 17:13 ,,, what's a 'Patriot issue' ? ,,, I have no affiliation if they are an organized group ,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:30 - ID#254112)
@GOLDEN CHEESHEAD: Lieber Herr Goldener Kaesekopf
Ich habe schon lange nichts mehr von Ihnen gehoert.
I Like your post from 20:14!!

Alberich der Zwerg

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:32 - ID#261322)
Well Alberich, I didn't do all of my homework. I really didn't realize that those numbers for gold holdings would be so low. Had I known that I would have been a little less depressed earlier today. Thanks

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:39 - ID#411112)
Wetgold...J sounds like a buddy of that other socialist ROR,pay no attention

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:42 - ID#290118)
IRS will nail people for the real vs. face value of golden eagles.
Somewhere in this Kitco thread in the last month there was a post about somebody getting clipped for the difference. The IRS regards it as income. The usual key words of IRS, Eagle, Gold, etc. would kick out so many hits on this forum as to prove useless.
The employer could get nailed for inadequate withholding, workers comp, unemployment premiums, FICA, Medicare, etc.
The employee could get nailed for under-reporting income and inadequate withholding of income tax, FICA, Medicare, etc.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:51 - ID#335190)
American, Philadelphia stock exchanges sign deal to merge

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - The American Stock Exchange ( AMEX ) Tuesday solidified its position as a leader in financial options trading by reaching an agreement in principle to merge with the Philadelphia Stock Exchange.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:51 - ID#317193)
oris...the game is afoot..
My brother, there was no decision made today. Is everyone deaf and dumb. NO DECISION made but a consensus of the representatives.

Which countries hold the votes? Germany, France and maybe Italy. Wait for the vote. You and I know which way these three will vote. Yes?

We are just seeing the game previously discussed played out. You gotta love this play. I cant wait for November-December.....US$ to tank. Currency wars are nasty.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 20:53 - ID#27341)
can anyone spot the mistake ( not spellling ) i brought some Tangyika, do i shoot myself now,or wait till next week, gratfull for any advice.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:02 - ID#335190)
Mellon Banking and Oil @ Freedom of the press, and grass root's organization's EH! In God We Trust?
Richard Scaife, billionaire benefactor of anti-Clinton forces

WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- Scratch the surface of some of President Bill Clinton's noisiest critics and you're likely to find the financial support of conservative billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife.

The billionaire's foundations have for years given millions to charities, political organizations and think-tanks.

Scaife, an heir to the Mellon banking and oil fortune, rarely gives interviews. Yale Gutnick, his lawyer, said politics is not a factor in deciding who receives grants and the foundations give to a wide range of groups with different ideologies. Many are conservative but some are not.

Last year's grant recipients included the Holy Family Institute, a Roman Catholic group that received $100,000; Boston University, which was given $140,000; and Goodwill Industries, a $100,000 grant recipient.

David Horowitz, an author whose Centre for the Study of Popular Culture received $450,000 from a Scaife foundation, said the Pittsburgh billionaire is "unfairly pilloried" and there are no strings attached to the money.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:03 - ID#225273)
Market Comments
To all:

On the face of it, today seems pretty devastating. We'll see about that. let's see where we are now.

Gold bumped up against the underside of the uptrend line it broke a few weeks ago and got slam-dunked. Either this is a case of "the bears protesteth too much" or gold is about to crumble. Look for the sign post. If gold breaks below Monday's low of 289.20, then it looks like there will be another leg down.

If Monday's low holds, then we'll likely see another shot at 300.

There's really no change in silver. The first leg up from 4.92 to 5.45 traveled $.53. That's pretty good. after a pullback, which has already gone $.14, I think silver will likely continue to trend higher, toward the 200-day MA around 5.73.

There is a small gap on the AEM chart at 5.50. Today's close was 6.06. It may try to fill that gap before going higher.

DROOY closed at 2.56. There is a small gap below 2.44 it may try to close.

FSCNY closed a 5.00. There is a gap down at 4.63 it could make a run for.

HM traded into a huge gap above the market today and was violently thrown out before it could close it. This gap dates from June 1 and extends to 12.00. Today's high was 11.50 and the close was 10.50.

I should mention the term "key reversal," as this pattern showed up on many of the gold stocks today. Today's high was higher than yesterday's high but the close was lower than yesterday's close. Normally, this is not a very positive pattern. If gold takes out yesterday's low, then this reversal is to be trusted and we'll see much lower prices.

Also, today's gold action was unrelated to the bond market. This is unusual. The bonds were very quiet today. Perhaps it was just a knee-jerk reaction to a reckless speech.

Time will tell.

Happy trading,

The Preacher

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:13 - ID#287186)
Champion of Tax on Tue May 05 1998 15:06
had the cited reference on IRS and Eagles.
PrivateInvestor asked for the entire source.
Champion of Tax ata 15:35 responded:
"I'd love to do that, but I can't because I got it off a proprietary service so there are copyright restrictions, plus no web link. Sorry. Anyway, I can summarize for you. Basically, Smith sold timber off his land only in exchange for Eagles which he valued at face of $50. The Tax Court agreed with the IRS that Eagles are "property" not "money" and thus must be valued at market. The case cited an older case ( you can't actually cite Memo cases as precedent ) , so this isn't new law.
Sure sucks though.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:17 - ID#242258)
Brother Tom,

I want you to think pickle-style ( I mean "long-n-hard" )
on the subject of potential correlation between price
of gold in the $US, strength of the dollar and strength
of EURO.Is it possible that our European brothers try
to keep $US pretty strong to gain advantage for EURO,
I mean in future trading berween the U.S. and Europe.
That is kind of wild guess, but I would think it may
be some kind of setup for the nearest future, although
I really do not know if this is possible on practice in
the real world...

Just want to exchange ideas with you.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:28 - ID#288295)
EMU Gold Reserves
In view of the announced ( tentative ) 10-15% gold foreign exchange reserve level, I think the following is a very important read - these fellows predicted 10% reserves way back in November of last year. A very good explanation of just who has the gold, how much they have to contribute to EMU, and what happens to the balance.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:29 - ID#290232)
New World Order
"I'll bet that within the next hundred years, nationhood as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. A phrase breifly fashionable in the mid-20th century -- "Citizen of the world" -- will have assumed real meaning by the end of the 21st".

Who could be responsible for such a quote? How about U.S. Deputy
Secretary of State, Strobe Talbott, July 20, 1992.

Want to check this out? Just do an Altavista search on
+"strobe talbott" +"nationhood" and you can read the transcript
of the entire speech this quote was extracted from on any of a
dozen different sites.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:38 - ID#26793)
The Dow/Gold Ratio does not relate to the S&P price earnings in any way. Simply, it is the Dow priced in ounces of gold. It removes all the inflationary bias, CPI adjustments and other confusing garbage. For example, the Dow/Gold Ratio today was 30.79. If we were still on the Gold Standard that would equate to a Dow of 636.42. It helps you understand that a Dow of 9000 is a useless number. It takes away the illusion and restores the reality. If you examine the wave pattern however it provides you with a different milestone to examine. It removes the shroud of the invisible crash from 1966 to 1980. It shows you that 1987 was a non-event and it visibly displays the manic stock market since January 16, 1991, when the Dow/Gold Ratio passed over the 233 day moving average. Most of all it shows that we are well above the 1929 peak and ripe for a downturn.

I have a 100 year chart that I can send to your postal address. I regret that I can not send by e.mail. This is a paper chart.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:41 - ID#210235)
@Indians launch offensive in Kashmir
Indians launch offensive

SRINAGAR: Thousands of Indian security forces have launched an offensive against Muslim mercenaries in a mountainous area of Kashmir, police said yesterday.

Nearly 7,000 soldiers and police commandos were involved in the operation begun on Monday in a 50 square kilometer area in Doda district.

A senior officer said the offensive was launched following reports of mercenaries hiding in the hills.

``Soldiers, paramilitary forces and ( police ) commandos are advancing uphill through thick forests from different directions towards the suspected hideouts,'' the officer said.

India's Hindu nationalist government last week ordered a crackdown on Muslim mercenaries, large numbers of whom are known to be active in Kashmir, the country's only Muslim-majority state.

The state's chief minister, Farooq Abdullah, was also quoted as saying that India will use its newly acquired nuclear weapons in a war if necessary.

``We will not hesitate to use a nuclear bomb if the country's security is endangered,'' the Economic Times newspaper quoted Mr. Abdullah, an ally of the ruling nationalists, as saying.

The Press Trust of India quoted him as saying India would be compelled to use ``nuclear weapons in self-defence if attacked by any country, including Pakistan and China.''


(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:42 - ID#411112)
Gollum....Hope your pencil is sharp Greenspan speaks to-morrow,help us on the English thing


(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:43 - ID#202123)

I remember my Civic's teacher telling our class ( in the early 60s ) that as the US gained more and more people, we would lose more and more freedoms/privileges. May seem off the wall, but I think it ties in with what we see happening today

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:44 - ID#340302)
Gold Pessimism Vs. Gold Optimism....
Sorry to all my fabulous detractors out there...but I cannot resist at least one more post today. Naturally, feel free to re-write it, denigrate it, and disparage it. I don't care because the facts are the facts.

The most fascinating development that occurred in the gold market today had nothing to do with Ol' Dutch Duisenberg's announcement regarding gold support of the EURO. Totally expected...and the negative spin provided by gold shorts concerning said announcement...also totally expected. Read any of my previous posts from the past several months in which I describe the manner in which gold shorts would spin today's announcment.

No, the most fascinating development was the gold market reaction to this announcement. Muted to say the least. Gold fell a mere $2.70. Moreover, if it were not for "informed" gold shorts leaking false rumors ( again ) this morning about an imminent announcement of 30% gold support of the EURO ( thereby sending goldbug expectations soaring along with gold volume and price ) , then I suspect gold would have experienced little if any reaction to the announcement ( In other words, a moderately traded market would have left gold even for the day ) .

Despite bursting today's exuberant bubble resulting from false leaks about high Euro gold support, gold nevertheless experienced a fairly strong buying rally an hour before the close of market. Gosh, there must be "somebody" who does not buy the gold short line? Duuuuh?

What does it all mean?

It means that a Gold Bull is definitely gold longs simply do not react with the same fearful intensity of the past year. They are increasingly oblivious to the repeated cries of "WOLF!" ...because the wolf refuses to appear!! The wolf does not exist. He never did.

Unfortunately, the gold shorts are wedded to their pessimistic interpretation of gold's destiny. They cannot see the trend change ( psychological shift ) that has occurred in the market ( N.A. producers no longer selling exploration programs terminating left and right...industry facto cartelization of the gold mining if they're not mining it, the CB's have to keep selling it. Just how much gold do the CB's really want to sell to meet demand shortfalls? What happens to gold demand when a First World stock market crash finally occurs ( in Australia, Canada, or wherever? ) How many CB's will be able to satisfy the resultant flight to gold? ) .

Unable to discern the trend change, gold shorts will continue to short gold for the next $100-$150 rise in price...and will give back most of their profits earned over the past two years before they recognize the writing on the wall.

As you all know, I have been in touch with various high-powered businessmen concerning the existing condition of the gold market. It is a major understatement to say that there is amazing interest in "testing" this market and determining just what are the physical realities of supply. Buy and take delivery, that is the key. If a $50 million dollar purchase can make someone ( even in the short term ) a fast $100 million dollars, hey, that ain't so bad! In fact, as has already been reported by Reuters, one particular institution has begun testing this market on a daily basis ( and I expect it will continue to do so ) .

I strongly urge goldbugs to illuminate those around them about the limited physical supply relative to paper purchasing power.

We are about to witness an amazing tidal wave of purchasing power chase the precious.

Hang on to your hats.



P.S. Keep reading Gollum's posts...some of the very best gold market analysis amongst all the muck and mucous from the usual bunch of gold malcontents.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:45 - ID#43349)
Never fear, I is here. Pencil in hand.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:47 - ID#210235)
@Seriousness of nuke proliferation not to be underestimated.
If you missed this post today, on Freerepublic, ( and it is difficult to skim ALL our sources ) , please check out this post. This is one lady who knows whereof she speaks, Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:52 - ID#284255)
Dow/Gold Ratios for 1900's
Dow/Gold ratio 10's to 50's
Dow/Gold ratio 50's to 90's

(Tue Jun 09 1998 21:57 - ID#284255)
A Special Moment in History
The dangers of overpopulation, the dangers of climate change, the dangers of pollution -- we've been hearing about all these dangers for years, and yet doomsday still hasn't come. But what if we have already inflicted serious damage on the planet? And what if we have only a few decades left in which to salvage a stable environment? These questions, the author argues, are not hypothetical.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:02 - ID#269207)
It started yesterday or really Regean Started it 1988.
Today the president of Mexico complained at the UN World convention on the Drug War with 180 nations present and 30 heads of State, that he did not appreciate that 26 Mexican Bankers had been indicted by a Grand Jury in Los Angeles, contrary to the Laws of Mexico, but perfectly permisable under the Laws the UN is drafting for the two new World Courts it has established.

The UN has claimed jurisdiction of the international waters and the authority to enforce criminal and civil judgments around the world.

This only means that any member Nation can claim authority under UN membership to extent their policing and other activities across borders and into international waters, as the Tolerant1 pointed out, the UN does not have a Navy, well it doesn't need one.

Check out the the UN web page, the Drug meeetings will go on until tomorrow.

They claim there is an annual market of 400 billion in drug money, and they are pulling out all the stops so the member states can seize whatever they percieve to be drug related monies/property and excet.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:07 - ID#43349)
anybody watching the overnight markets?
You may be surprised.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:07 - ID#43460)
Bill McKibben makes a pretty good argument in an indirect way for space colonization. If one compares humanity with slime mold ( an apt comparison considering all the factors ) then the 21st century will be the time that they either send out spores from the mother planet or shrink back into oblivion. IMHO ( Yes I know this is a weird post. )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:11 - ID#411112)
Farfel,you are a good man,sometimes I go nuts trying to explain how the real world functions as far
as physical gold and silver are concerned ,in the industry it is no secret that product is getting harder to get,in relation to say a year ago,we have seen so far this year delays in getting Canadian Mapel Leafs bullion....1/10 of an oz Eagles,Morgan and Peace dollars in quantity,low grade numismatics have gone from $429.00 to $500.00.....when we get a run no matter how small the premium on physical gold and silver doubles.....if gold were to go limit up $25.00 just one day the premium on 1 oz golden eagles would go from 5% to 25%...the spot price will mean nothing....he who has the gold makes the rules....YES :- )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:12 - ID#284255)
I have yet to read the article -just glossed over it before Dad took it off me.
He is enticed by the article and now rereading it.
It has provided an hours commentary so far this glorious morning.

Are you referring to gold's demise or HK's???

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:12 - ID#317193)
Brother oris, of course for trade purposes every currency wishes to have an advantage i.e., to be weaker so as to garner exports and limit imports. No country ( s ) wishes to be debtor to the world.

The problem for the Euro is acceptance at home and in the rest of the world. The Euro can either be weak and subservient to the US$ or an alternative world currency. If it is weak the populace of Europe will not accept it. Gold in Europe is much more important than in the US. Likewise in the East.

Can the Euro be weak? Yes. However, a weak Euro is just an ongoing currency crisis. Looks at what we have now...currency crisis after currency crisis. The Euro will fail unless the confidence of the people of the world is earned. Methinks gold AND silver are in the cards. More of a guess than anything else but an educated guess. Most of this world values gold and silver. Soros and Buffet come to mind. No conspiracy theory just viewing recent events.

Gold has been manipulated down for a reason...that reason has to be tied to the Euro. Where do all the rumors and press releases come from? Europe. Why? No, I was not invited to dine with the Euro people and told the answer but I aint deaf and dumb either. Now wrong, that I could be. Whats new with that...been there done that. Im not that wrong that often. I dont see conspiracies in every nook and cranny.

This last year to year and one half all seems to be to controlled and manipulated by the Euro folks. At least in my opinion.

We watch this new gold market together. Yes?: )


(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:13 - ID#284255)
Or us poor Ozzies demise.
Down the gurgler we go.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:13 - ID#256326)
Herr Ksekopf
The point re backing versus convertibility is whether one prefers Monopoly money or gold coin.
Assuming that the gold is really still at Fort Knox ( some say it isn't ) , it really makes no difference to me since I can't exchange my greenbacks for it and vice versa at a fixed rate. Therefore the paper is worthless over any period longer than a normal paycheck fortnight.
The EU foxtrot over how much gold to hold as backing is merely BS to soothe the old folks' feelings of solidity for the Neu Mark. Nichts mehr.
Of course, paper is good for lots of things. ( Trying to be politically correct here in case there are paper fetishists lurking about. )

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:15 - ID#267276)
What is gold doing tonite ? Kitco not working. Thanks

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:17 - ID#369174)
Interesting Lurking lately
What swings there have been here during the past week. We've gone from extreme pessimism to extreme indifference to extreme optimism. Woweeeeeeeeeee!

Back to lurking. c-ya

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:21 - ID#342376)
Tug of War with POG
It's very clear to me that Gold wants to move up but everytime the US Markets look shakey OR Gold makes a nice move, a negative spin is put out on Gold either from some Central Bank Sale or, like today, an announcement about lower reserves than was expected, which is also a spin as Farfel pointed out in his posts that in the beggining 10 to 15 percent reserves would have been bullish but not now. ( I think my sentence structure needs some work, no? ) I still have a very good feeling about the POG. It is a spring with developing tension. Every time it is manipulated it just adds more tension. When this baby lets loose, watch out above. The trap that will let the spring loose is IMHO, Y2K. I have read posts elsewhere that Gold Coins are being gobbled up like crazy. NO manipulation will be able to stop it. It is already happening.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:21 - ID#43349)
And now extreme frustration.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:21 - ID#288186)
Gollum. Yep. Aug Gold around 293.10 at this hour. ouch.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:21 - ID#284255)
Gold @
GCQ8 = $293
Aus$$$ = 58.48
HK down 2.5% @ 8178

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:22 - ID#43349)
What's silver doing?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:25 - ID#290172)
China and ..........
The first is the path of China's nominal and real exchange rates since 1990. As it turns out, this is more complicated than is commonly assumed, with basic results exhibiting sensitivity to the exchange rate measure used. We conclude that while China did experience a large nominal depreciation, its much higher relative inflation eroded this devaluation, and in real terms the reminbi has actually appreciated during the 1990s.
we find that a modest 5-10 percent devaluation of the reminbi would be sufficient to re-establish the status quo ante in light of the recent devaluations elsewhere in the region. At the same time, given the relatively minor impact on China of the events observed thus far, and the likelihood that a devaluation in China could spark another round of financial turbulence in the region, this result surely argues for restraint on the part of the Chinese.
"Asian Competetive Devaluations" Ligang Liu;Institute for International Economics

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:25 - ID#256326)
Gold up a smidgen on NYMEX/Access from the Comex close. ~294 basis GCQ8.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:27 - ID#290172)
Japan and...
Vol.14, No.2 / December 1996

The Use of the Yen as a Reserve Currency
Peter M. Garber
The depreciation of the U.S. dollar in 1995 rekindled discussion about the organization of the international monetary system, including calls to expand the roles of the yen and the deutsche mark as reserve currencies. The yen has not assumed a greater role because sufficient yen instruments are unavailable. The measures that make the yen relatively illiquid result partly from public debt management policy and control over the competitive advantage of the government in securities issuance. From a narrow perspective, it is quite easy to expand the role of the yen as a reserve currency: raise the supply of Treasury bills to approximately \60 trillion, eliminate the transaction tax on government securities, and let the Bank of Japan be a banker for foreign central banks. Such changes, however, imply a loss of control over the holders of the most liquid instruments in the Japanese money market.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:28 - ID#288186)
July Silver was @ 5.315 about 15 minutes ago. It's low in after hours is
5.30 Fox-Man

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:30 - ID#290172)
And from the IMF "Acronyms"
AMU...Asian Monetary Unit

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:32 - ID#284255)
Silver @ $5.34
Silver @ $5.32
Silver @ $5.32

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:33 - ID#43349)

Bully Beef
(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:33 - ID#259282)
It seems too obvious that when gold is starting to heat up somebody throws cold water on it.
It is almost always in the " big smoke". Well screw them. I ain't sellin.Till Oct Or Nov. I get longer all the time.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:38 - ID#174103)
The Sounds of (Yen) Silence
As the Yen continues to fall, G7 remains silent. I wonder if even AG will mention it. The de facto devaluation of the Yen has sealed Asia's deflationary fate. It's hard to put a positive spin on it.

futures loook interesting:

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:38 - ID#43349)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:39 - ID#34883)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:41 - ID#431263)
Which would you rather have then, a US dollar, a Swiss Franc, a Deutschmark, a British Pound, a Japanese Yen or a 15% gold-backed Euro?

Since the value of each is determined by market demand, respectfully, all things being equal, I'd choose the one most-backed by gold and convertible into gold--the EURO!

Apparently ANOTHER agrees with me because he makes clear in a recent post that after Jan.1,1999 the dollar will be toast and the EURO will reign, and all gold trading will be conducted in EUROS as the dollar in gold terms is revalued into the many thousands!

Obviously, the main reason for ME oil to sell its precious oil reserves for EURO reserves will be the EURO's 15% gold-backing! The dollar will be dumped because it is perceived as weak ( no guaranteed gold backing ) , while the EURO will be hoarded because it is perceived as strong ( 10-15% guaranteed gold backing ) . Gold-backing will be the key to the EURO's success as a new world-reserve currency with which to supplant the US dollar! Verstehen Sie? Oder bin ich vericht?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:53 - ID#342376)
It won't have ANY Gold-Backing only a percentage of reserves will be held with gold. There is no convertability here as far as I understand it.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:53 - ID#190411)
Euro, and the static supply
Alberich pointed out that a ratio of 10-15% implies a much larger amount of gold that needs to be held by the Euro currency, but he was including only the currency for internal European, and present international uses of the present member currencies.
What I see is this: If the Euro aspires to be a defacto world currency, and I think that they do, they will have to increase the money supply to make it become a "reserve currency of the world".
Spreading beyond the signatory countries to Asia, Africa, and South America, will take a great deal more currency than the internally traded currencies of Europe. When the newly created fractional reserve money starts spreading around, they will have to back this with their 10-15% new gold.
I don't have a college degree, so I am sure that some Yale guy with an economics degree can point out the obvious error in my post.

P.S. I have never believed that the Europeans are so stupid as to go along with this Euro nonsense.
These keepers of the culture, have been lecturing the Americans for more than two hundred years about the superiority of their "historical" past, and the ruffian nature of the lost people of the New World.
You Euro's can sell your limited freedom for a unified currency, and bureaucracy.
Or, you might look to your history to find a Unified Currency in the gold standard.
You can have easy accounting and freedom at the same time.

The Hatt
(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:55 - ID#294232)
Australian Market About To Take A Nosedive!
Been watching with great interest the weakness in the currency and the market since the powers to be had the brainstorm to sell their gold. They had better sit up and take notice or they will find themselves in the same position as Mexico. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that they made a grave error and their only hope is to start supporting their own by buying gold. Canada is next!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:56 - ID#256326)
Herr Ksekopf
I sense that you are missing the point. "Backing" means nothing. As to which of the paper currencies I prefer, at the moment the nod goes to the US$. Tomorrow it could be the Senegalese CFA or whatever paper is in vogue. I find it hard to get sentimental or dogmatic over paper.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 22:56 - ID#288186)
OK. Time for some optimism about Gold's future..
IMHO. We're getting closer and closer to the day for a significant
reversal in the precious metals. I can't, of course predict this
turn, but I agree with other posters about some of the events that
could turn these metals.
1. We keep getting reports of a strong economy, and I think inflation,
not deflation, is a more serious threat. We've been above the Fed's target range of 2/2.5% for GDP the last several quarters and even with
the Asian factor, we're still looking at over 3% or more in the next
quarter. Yes, some prices have been declining, but others are climbing.
This is occuring especially in the services sector as well as real estate and equities ( everyone here can see the inflation in our stock
market ) . It's just a matter of time and this wiff of inflation will
rock people's boats ( imho ) .
2. A confidence crisis. This could happen because of any number of
factors. All are possible. ( ie; Slick Willy, Dollar plummet,y2k,war,etc )
3. Fundamentals. I believe, like others, that demand is outweighing
supply. This means price equilibrium will eventually have to occur.
Any and all these scenerios seem relevant to me. They could and may
occur in the same time frame. Who knows. Anyway, this is all IMHO.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:10 - ID#431263)
Ain't it a tragedy? A shame? And a scandal? All Aussies should be outraged at what their government did to them at BC's direction!
Australia will shortly become a classic example of what happens to countries that renounce the value of gold as a reserve for national currencies! Yes Canada! Yes US! You is next!

Another good reason to sell ALL fiat currencies while there is still time and purchase whatever amount of gold we can before the golden door is shut and the desperate billions come knocking at the door in a state of panic for entrance only to find the door to them locked and sealed shut, just like Noah's ark! That's one point I hope I never miss!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:11 - ID#190411)
Check out SDR'ers acronym link. ......ARF
ARF-- see LARF
--Damned world gummint.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:13 - ID#256326)
Golden Cheesehead
"Backing" means foreign exchange reserves. Geld. Money in the bank. Cash. What you use to pay debts with and defend the currency with.
The reason why you need to defend the currency is becasue it has no value and will be attacked and have to be supported.........Whereas if it were convertible to and from gold, the discipline of gold would cause the political and economic policies of the government to be changed BEFORE the nation were bankrupted.
Hoffentlich finden Sie das etwas klar.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:21 - ID#242325)
Deflation, Gold, and The Banks
JP: Agree that deflation would be bullish for gold if the banking systeM is threatened by massive charge-offs. But there is no evidence we are even close to that now. If we were bank stocks would be under heavy pressure. But they are still in the ozone layer. Seems to me the current deflationary wave out of Asia actually is a net positive for banks since interest rates are kept lower than they otherwise would be. And US banks can acquire Asian banks dirt cheap.


(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:23 - ID#190411)
Where's Jacques Rueff when we need him
to talk some sense to the Euro-peons?

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:25 - ID#289433)
10% to 15% a nice safe call, but IMO not the final one. If the announcement had been for 5% they would start losing support and having to defend their position. An announcement of 20% or more would have driven the POG up much higher before they have completed accumulation ( or really determined how much gold backing/reserves the EMU will have ) . No announcement at all would allow the gradual increase in POG to continue to ?. 10% to 15% throws just enough cold water on any potential gold rally to stall or even drop it a little, without any political battles. Yet it maintains credibility and buys time to get their ducks in a row before a final announcement is made.

Thats just my non-technical, novice view. Feel free to shoot it down. I'm an easy target.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:26 - ID#256326)
Old Gold
You are absolutely correct! The only way gold goes "up" in deflation is if the currency is devalued as in NZ, OZ, Thailand, Maylasia, and the US in 1933.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:26 - ID#93130)
This followup is important although it is like trying to put out a fire he started with a bucket of water:
In a suprise announcement before the close of the business day ECB
bank chairman Wim Duisenberg sought to soothe the troubled waters
of the gold market by clarifying offhand statements made earlier in the
day. He suggested that 10-15% reserve currency backing of the new
European monetary unti, the euro, by gold would only be a minimum
and that this could go as high as 40% if the bank deemed this necessary.
They would not be bound by current negative sentiment towards holding physical assets
as a currency reserve backing as this had proved effective for over 200 hundred years of
currency stability for Switzerland. "The fact is that gold below 340 US dollars would
have to be viewed as a buying opportunity and this is how the bank sees it."

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:27 - ID#253153)
Unlearned Lessions
Two hundred eighty years have passed since John Law introduced paper money to an astonished world. In all that time, governments have not learned how to handle it properly. I refer not only to improper political pressures, but the mechanical issuance of it. The same may be said of the issuance of credit by banks.Who but bankers would advertise that we should consider credit cards as money, when it is credit ? For those
who believe our major banks will survive their excessive lending I say the following : Banks , it seems , are at the mercy of their borrowers willingness to repay as much as borrowers are at the mercy of the willingness of banks to lend more. It seems both are bankrupt but will not admit this because their jobs are at stake. Money is created by increased public demand for currency , not the fed. As we entered back in Feb 1998 into a runaway deflationary phase ,the demand for money by the public will decline. The fed will no longer be able to continue the inflationary process because that process is made possible only through the public need for more and more currency.As that need declines as it always does in deflation--it will undercut the fed ability to keep inflation up. You may not know, but in 1930 and 1931 the public turned back more currency than they required, as they did in 1949 as well. We are moving into a deflationary depression of massive proportions because the capital's all used up. There is no more liquidity in the Far East or Central Europe and not much left in North America. It is all invested in stocks, real estate , etc. Now we're going to go through a period of capital building--a deflationary depression.
4 suggestions:
1.Commodities will continue to decline.
2. Interest rates and stocks will continue to decline.
3. For income --long term treasuries will do.
4. For appreciation and safety --buy gold and mining shares.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:27 - ID#284255)
The Hatt
I doubt any of Ozzies demise is directly related to their selling their gold.
That is more what we perceive looking over the fence.

It has more to do with Asia's demise
And the lack of sales of our exports.

Asia used to take 70% of our exports
Now this has dried up considerably.

But we still think like consumers and imports are too high.
Currently we are importing sugar -
Because some country sells it cheap.
Yet we produce far more than we can consume.
Yet we can't sell it cheap enough.

There is far more to our demise than meets the eye.
We only need look North
To realize why we are fast becoming a banana republic.
We built up a vast export base within Asia
Now it has fallen to pieces
We have to wear the yoke which we cast.

Oz has vast reserves of gold - abeit still in the ground
Oz has vast natural resources - far more than we could consume.
But who will buy our exports?

Herein lies the problem.
The contagion that travels the globe.
Who can afford to buy?
When they have no money and are vastly in debt.

This contagion has begun
There will be along way to go
Before we see the bottom.

Unpleasant it may seem
But reality it is.

And OZ is only one of many countries to feel this squeeze.

It has little to do with the gold we sold.
And you must remember who told us to sell that gold???
And who reaped the rewards when that gold was sold???

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:28 - ID#431263)
Du bist einer Schueler and einer Herr!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:29 - ID#256326)

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:30 - ID#284255)
Hong Kong blues
HK down 3.86% to 8067 and falling fast.^hsi

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:31 - ID#187218)
U.S. Income Tax 101
Someone got me started today on taxes ,,,,

The following information can be quickly checked by anyone reading this by simply pulling out your 1997 tax returns and instruction booklet ,,,,, some of these items are disturbing BUT I will continue to inform ,,,,,,
According to the "Privacy Act and Paperwork Reduction Act Notice" on page 38 of the 1997 1040 Instructions manual:

" Our legal right to ask for information is Internal Revenue Code sections 6001, 6011, and 6012 ( a ) and their regulations. They say that you must file a return or statement with us for any tax you are liable for. Your response is mandatory under these sections. Code section 6109 and its regulations say that you must show your social security number on what you file "

Analysis: ,,, The key points here are that you MUST FILE A RETURN for ANY TAX that you are LIABLE FOR .

Sec. 6001. "Notice or regulations requiring records, statements, and special returns"
----- this is simply stating you are required to keep records if you are LIABLE.

Sec 6011. "General requirement of return, statement, or list"
----- the LIABLE party must file a return.

Sec. 6012 ( a ) . "Persons required to make returns of income"
----- individuals having a certain level of income. ( dont confuse the term income with wages --- to be discussed at a later time )

Note! ,,, Sections 6001 and 6011 have no provisions stating that you "must file a return" as stated in the Notice. This is a direct misrepresentation.
Continuing on another direct quote from the Notice:

" We may give the information to the Department of Justice and to other Federal agencies , to foreign governments because of tax treaties they have  "
Let me add a few additional tid-bits since I will be MIA for some time --- I will be more thorough at a later time ,,,,

IRC 4401 ( c ) : ,,, "... Each person who conducts any wagering pool or lottery shall be liable for and shall pay the tax ..."

IRC 5005 ( c ) : ,,, "... the distiller or importer of distilled spirits shall be liable for the tax imposed ..."

IRC 5703 ( a ) : ,,, "... the manufacturer or importer of tobacco products and cigarette papers and tubes shall be liable for taxes ..."

IRC 5061 ( a ) : ,,, "... the taxes on distilled spirits, wines, and beer shall be collected on the basis of a return ..."

Finally ,,, for all you smart lawyers out there ---- find me a provision in the +9000 pages of the code that defines 'income' ,,, you won't find it ,,, and if not referenced ,,, what tax are we "liable" for ,,,,

I'm done for now ,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:39 - ID#286249)
European Commission views gold in special tax ways...
26 to 30 January 1998

Case C-432/97
Commission v Germany
Failure by a State to comply with its obligations - Articles 2 and 28a ( 1 ) ( a ) of the Sixth Council Directive ( 77/388/EEC ) of 17 May 1977 on the harmonization of the laws of the Member States relating to turnover taxes - Common systems of value added tax: uniform basis of assessment ( OJ 1977 L 145, p. 1 ) -

Exemption of transactions in respect of gold - Gold bars, gold coins ranking as legal tender - Unprocessed gold - National measure intended to rectify the effects of a transitional measure.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:41 - ID#254274)
Again, as posted in the past, I believe the economies approach a saturation condition, in which further injection of capital and money in ANY form is destroyed. This saturation point is dependent upon parameters which are in need of specification. This "saturation" condition can be identified by present day examples, such as Japan, and now others. We should not pass on this opportunity to identify the condition and the parametrics of same. IMHO

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:45 - ID#286249)
Belgium sold to pay down DEBT...(we knew this huh {:-)
European Commission
Convergence Report
Brussels, 25 March 1998
( prepared in accordance with Article 109j ( 1 ) of the Treaty )

page 116-Belgium: "In the period 1996-97, financial operations aimed at reducing the government debt ratio amounted to over 4% of GDP and consisted of: first, proceeds of gold sales by the central bank ; second, increased holdings of government debt within the government sector and, third, privatisation receipts ."
footnote 17: "A financial transaction is the sale and purchase of financial assets, such as GOLD, currency, deposits, loans, equity and bonds. Financial transactions must not be confused with capital transactions which cover capital formation ( investment ) and capital transfers ( such as investment grants and capital taxes ) . Capital transactions influence net borrowing."
The Commission dances deftly over the debt-warped floor!

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:46 - ID#284255)
Hong Kong collapsing
HK down 4.24%

OZ$ now 58.40

Globex starting to weaken.
Asia in the red - red - red.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:48 - ID#384350)
AZAU, saturation point
Of course there is a point where people cannot or will not borrow any more. I think this is what you mean by saturation point. I've been trying to give it some thought in the past several weeks.

However the USG can always borrow more. The question is can the USG borrow more And retain credibility in its currency?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:53 - ID#384350)
wetgold, Voluntary Taxes
I read in a newsletter about certain tax disputes. The article said ( from memory ) that the attorneys opened up their arguments with the customary "taxes are voluntary".

I can't remember the judges dissent, but this argument wasn't allowed by the judge.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:54 - ID#253153)
Old Gold---You are correct but---bank stocks have begun their decline
They are off 7% from their high's and declining. There is no way knowing
when the financial panic will hit . You would want to be in gold prior the panic. Once the panic hit's, it's too late.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:56 - ID#335190)
Andrew W. Mellon @ Business taking care of Business
1873 - start of U.S. economic crisis ( after civil war )

1877 - Old Daniel Drew, speaking of the civil war, had said complacently, " It's good to fish in troubled waters," and Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, and others found the remark equally true of depressions.

Carnegie, for example, rapidly building his huge steel mills, profiting from the low cost of materials and labor, sententiously declared, "The man who has money during a panic is the wise and valuable citizen."

From the depression's wreckage new figures arose, Rockefeller having absorbed hundreds of competitors, J.P. Morgan replacing Cooke as the nation's leading banker, ( Jay Cooke great banking house closed sept. 18 1873 - Philadelphia ) ,while Henry C. Frick with the help of *Andrew Mellon* gobbled up the Connellsville coal region, and James J. Hill, Henry Villard and Edward H. Harriman, profiting from the same general ruin, emerged as the new industrial titans, the possessors of railroads, land grants, and coal fields.

1886 - The real monopolists who foreshadowed the future were Frick and Carnegie, who were establishing a vertical trust in the steel industry, absorbing coke mines, iron ore deposits, and rolling mills; shrewd and cunning *Andrew Mellon*, who was organizing a company to take care of the estates of the Pittsburgh millionaires, thus putting more capital at his command and thereby enabling him to branch out into industry; and the regal Morgan, who was beginning to reorganize one railroad after another, gaining control over them, uniting in the process bank and industrial capital,**A NEW PHENOMENON.**

1888 - President Grover Cleveland, Annual Message to Congress 1888:

"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's MASTERS..."

1891 - Aluminum production gets a boost from Pittsburgh banker Andrew William Mellon 36, who invests in Pittsburgh Reduction Co. ( headed by his brother Richard ) .Finances the morgage of a new plant at New Kensington Pa., for the company that will become Aluminum Company of America ( ALCOA )

1901 - Spindletop gusher at Beaumont Tex. Big Hill spouts 110,000 barrels per day, flowing wild for 9 days before it is under control. Contains more oil than the rest of the USofA. Gulf Oil Co. has its beginnings as Galey and Guffey get backing from Pittsburgh banker *Andrew W. Mellon and his brother Richard, who take 40 percent of the new J.M. Guffey Petroleum Co.

1933 - Banking Act of 1933: The Federal Reserve Banks were now permitted to loan directly to industry, competing with the member banks, who could not hope to match their capacity in arranging large loans.

The Chairman of the Senate Committee on Banking and Currency had asked, during the Gold Reserve Hearings of 1934:
"Is it not true, Governor Young, that the Secretary of the Treasury ( Andrew W. Mellon ) for the past twelve years has dominated the policy of the Federal Reserve Banks and the Federal Reserve Board with respect to the purchase of United States bonds?"

Governor Young had denied this, but it had already been brought out that on both of his hurried trips to this country in 1927 and 1929 to dictate Federal Reserve policy, Governor Montagu Norman of the Bank of England had gone directly to *Andrew W. Mellon* Secretary of the Treasury to get him to purchase Government securities on the open market and start the movement of gold out of U.S. back to Europe.

The Gold Reserve Hearings had also brought in other people who had more than a passing interest in the operation of the Federal Reserve System.
Paul Warburg, ( ( ( resigned Federal Reserve governor 1918,returned to Kuhn, Loeb Company - President Federal Advisory Council 1918-1928 - Brother Max Warburg, was head of German Secret Service during World War I and who represented Germany at the Peace Conference 1918 / 1919, while Paul Warburg was chairman of the Federal Reserve System - trusts organized, International Acceptance Bank, largest acceptance bank in the world, Agfa Ansco Film Corporation, headquarters in Belgium, and I.G. Farben Corporation whose American branch Warburg set up as I.G. Chemical Corporation. The Westinghouse Corporation is also one of his creations ) ) ) just back from the London Economic Conference with Professor O.M.W. Sprague and Henry L. Stimson, came in to declare that he thought we ought to **modernize the Gold Standard.**

1937 - Andrew W. Mellon dies August 26 at age 82. 1941 - $15 million bequest from Mellon, provides for The National Gallery of Art in Washington D.C., with an art collection.

FWIW.....Take Care

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:57 - ID#187218)
Gianni Dioro__A
The system is so corrupt that Judges and lawyers will not take on the IRS ,,,, I am willing to bet anyone that the IRS agents and administrators brough forth before Congress several weeks past to discuss abuse,,,, will not result in legislation that changes the system ,,,,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:57 - ID#254274)
I restate the postulate that there exists the saturation point that governs the economies, regardless of who they are. I mean even the US govt, printing press or not. The saturation parameters are most likely heavily quantitative, but with some qualitative ( psycho? ) parameter component. Any help that you can lend to this is appreciated.

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:57 - ID#284255)
HK stocks fall sharply in morning on currency woes
HONG KONG, June 10 ( Reuters ) - Hong Kong stocks fell sharply in Wednesday morning trade, as the weakness of the Japanese yen and its impact on China triggered selling across the board.

``The yen is obviously causing weakness around the region and possibly spreading to Chinese yuan,'' said one trader at SG Securities. ``People are still going short,'' he said, adding that there was very heavy selling pressure across the board.

Fears of a depreciation in the Chinese yuan hit China plays hard on Tuesday and the sector continued the slide on Wednesday.
BOJ says rate rise not option despite yen slide.
JNOC bad loans total more than one trln yen-papers
IMF would have money for Russia if needed - Rubin
INTERVIEW-Forex pact at G7 meeting unlikely-Utsumi
INTERVIEW-Soft landing goal for banks--panel chief
Japanese authorities are seeking a soft landing for the nation's beleaguered banking system but time may be running short,

(Tue Jun 09 1998 23:58 - ID#268404)

Why can't these governments see, that the only way to Strengthen their currencies, is to Back it up with Gold.