Date: Thu Jun 18 1998 09:00
goldfevr@pacbell.net ( yesterdays gold mining stocks ( xau ) performed poorly, for a real
bull move in gold ) ID#434108:
The volume & price action, inthe shares, was feeble/anemic on Wed., w/ gold's almost
$5.00 jump.

Today, there must be follow-thru on the upside, with convincing volume & price patterns on
the shares... if yesterday's jump in gold is to be believed -as the start of anything more
sustainable.

I moved to the states for the Feeling of Freedom and Personal Responsibility. Of course, I was shocked to see the level of welfare that I found. I also
moved for oppourtunity, and these are somewhat related.

HMOs are worse than the Canadian system, in my opinion, because of the greed motive with no balance. In the USA the balance factor is the law suit.
Did you know you cannot sue an HMO for deining treatment!!!! This is a disaster! If Mr. Gore wants to make sure HMOs provide certain services, he
should not pass laws, he should simply cease the Federal protection these institutions have.

My mother does have some trouble getting the quality of care she wants in Canada. Canadian definitely do go to the USA for certain expensive
treatments, or to get them more quickly. At least in Canada you know where you stand, though. In the USA you never know how the insurance co or
HMO will mess you over. And they will! if it is a costly service you want.

Go Gold, Silver.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_116000/116842.stm

Stock prices of metals are determined by many things, but these may be
loosely categorized into those things having to do with supply/demand
and those things having to do with "other factors of a more political,
emotional or manipulative nature.

When prices are determined mainly by supply/demand factors the
producers and those familiar with the business can often forsee
long term changes in prices. In such times the stocks will move
ahead of the metals.

When prices are volatile and moved mainly by "other" factors the
producer companies future will be little affected if a price pops
up or drops down for a day or two since it is the long term average
price that determines how the company will do in the long run.
In such times the metals will move ahead of the stocks.

In recent times prices have not been moved by supply/demand factors.

This Kitco chat format is not well suited to benefit the earlier poster who can be painted in an unfavorable light quite easily by a rebuttal. My new remarks in parentheses.:

"Date: Sat Jun 20 1998 20:06

JP ( Aurophile--A response to your questions ) ID#253153:

Copyright  1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

1. I do agree with you that tha dollar will be devalued if we hit a depression against foreign currencies.

( Just as I said, except the devalued dollar will not be as useful. )

2. Domestically, both the dollar and gold purchasing power will increase during a depression.

( Just as I said. )

3. I'm not a gold bug and never was. My only interest in gold is for safety and capital appreciation in the world of floating currencies.

( I certainly did not mean to imply that you are a goldbug as I do not know you or your political beliefs. )

4. Gold probably will NOT rise if the US currency was convertible into gold ( now IT'S NOT ) .

( Just as I said. )

5. Between 1331-1932 the long US treasury bond yield rose from 4.5% to 5.5%. The bond yield decline between 1933- 1940 from 5.5% to

2.6%.

( Depends on which bonds you are talking about and when. AA railroad bonds went from 6% to 13% from 1929 to 1931. Treasuries went from near par to 67 which would be about 12% in terms of the CBOT contract of today. AFTER the crash was OVER--parallel to the situation of 1981--bonds went up for many years until 1946. BUT if you bought them before the devaluation of 1933-34, as you imply one should have, they were still not that great an investment. )

6. In 1930 there was great deal of liquidity , and there isn't now. True, thousands of banks went bankrupt during the '30s. But those were mostly country banks that were overextended. Today, the problem is with the BIG banks that are overextended.There was so much

liquidity during two years of the depression that banks paid a negative

interest rate of 1% to hold their money in treasuries. There was no place else to put it because there was no BUSINESS EXPANSION.



( How do you explain the rising equity and bond prices today if there is no liquidity? Quite the opposite: there is too much liquidity.//There was no business investment then because the interest rates were far higher than any expected return. It took them 14 years to get down to reasonable rates since the government was issuing so many new ones, just as in the 1980's. )

I hope this will clear my opinion.



( Not really. )

pennies aint copper no more... they is tin, with a copper platin'... go ahead and melt one ( turb it glowin red ) with your handy propane torch and thro it on the ground! it splats in all directions real quick! looks like it almost vanishes..

On the whole do you feel your gold would be safer in the US or Canada?
( Please understand that I acknowledge my own prejudices in this matter and they shouldn't influence your answer, if you choose to answer. I have some very comfortable paper gold shares, the Central Fund of Canada, which is traded as CEF on the AMEX. )

Yup. They had ro reduce rhe commodity value of the metal to avoid
that kind of thing happening again.

Whatever medium one uses as money one can't let the underlying commodity
value of the currency exceed it's monetary value or else people will
hoard it, melt it , eat it or whatever and the economy which needs
money to grease it's wheels goes poof!

If they were tin- those pennies, I'd go to every bank with paper in hand.
Alas, they are Zinc.

El Nino really changed the continental weather patterns this year, with lots of thunderstorms and tornados damaging the US from South Dakota to Georgia. But luckily gold is heavy and bank vaults are made of steel and concrete so its really hard to blow or wash them away. But on the whle if you like it hot this is the place to come. ( 8-^} )

Actually I hate the heat. Today it got to about 85-90F in the part of Toronto I was in and the prespiration was blinding me. I love the 4 seasons and prefer winter. I am thinking of moving to the Vancouver because you can go up the mountains and get all 4 season in a couple of hours.

But maybe if the bones begin to complain Arizona might seem fine.

Be warned, friend, US pennies are zinc alloy and not tin. Zinc is poisonous to small children so that if they swallow even one penny they should go to the hospital and have it removed before their stomach acid dissolves the copper coating. Plus its fumes if breathed when melted produce a really nasty illness called metal fume fever. Having had this only once or twice in my 15 years of metalworking experiance it is NOT FUN. So don't confuse it with tin, please! IMHO

I like gold and RJ and LGB like platinum. You like 4 seasons and I like the heat. Which reminds me of a joke before bedtime.

There was once a Cajun, Boudreaux, who died in a car crash on the way to a New Orleans Saints game. Since he'd not been to confession in over a year and had committed some sins which we'll not mention here, but may have involved shorting silver, he was sent directly to hell.

The Devil met him at the door and after an intensive interview found he was an incorrigible silver trader so put him into a special hot room, built some years before just for the Hunt brothers and occasional Cajuns. He turned up the thermostat to 325 and left for the night.

The next morning he returned and Boudreaux was relaxing next to the heater vent, eating some crawfish and drinking a fruit jar full of Jack Daniels. He asked him was he comfortable and Boudreaux answered, "oh, no, mon ami, it jes' be warm enough to need to rest and drink some branch water with da' Jack Daniels."

So the Devil turned the thermostat up all the way and left. The next day he returned to see Boudreaux singing while he stirred up a sizzling pot of jumbalaya and sipping on a Lone Star Beer borrowed from the Texan next door. On inquiry Boudreaux said "uncomfortable, oh, no, its just like July on 'da bayou, nice and warm.

So the Devil angrily turned the thermostat all the way down and left again. The next day her returned to find Boudreaux sitting, frozen solid to his chair but even so he was smiling and humming a song to himself. the Devil was furious and asked him if he was at all uncomfortable. "Oh, no," he replied. "All 'dis ice and cold down here in hell done mean da' Saints must of won da' superbowl."

Goodnight

It's quite obvious that most of the U.S. posters here are in the upper income levels, but IMO the fact that the infant mortality rate in the U.S. is higher than Cuba is a pretty severe indictment of the U.S. system.
Also IMO, the reason so much hate & venom has been directed at a little 3rd world Country such as Cuba has a lot to do with the fact that they have the temerity to have a good education system & universal health care 2 things in a 3rd world Country that are anathema to the running dog U.S.
capitalists.

The U.S. is a great Country if you have no conscience & are a top income earner.

Al Gore makes me proud to be a Canadian. Apparently he gave a speech in
Chicago yesterday & talked about how great the Bulls are in winning another championship & how they have become a dynasty. And twice he referred to the great Micheal Jackson.

Earth to Al Gore...Al, Micheal Jackson is the pedophile who has made a career of wearing 1 glove & having plastic surgery. Micheal Jordan is the greatest basketball player that ever lived & quite possibly the greatest athelete that ever lived. Not much of a similarity.

When I think of the situation in the U.S...the beacon of light & hope..not, with a lying sex maniac as President & a retard as vice President, I have to think the doom & gloomers are too optimistic.

All: There is one overriding feature of any financial enterprise, and that is profits. Investors buy gold producing corporations because they are profitable or expect to be profitable very soon, just like any other equity investment.

So -- when will Gold mining companies be profitable? The answer is simple -- either the local price of gold must go up, or the cost of mining it goes down. Inflation causes the price of gold to rise, making gold mining firms more profitable. Deflation is associated with a reduced cost of labor, because it is commonly associated with massive unemployment. Infact, the costs of buying equipment and services in general go down during deflation. Therefore one overriding feature we must remember about gold and deflation is that gold mining also becomes much more profitable, but only after a major deflationary episode, not before.

As Donald has said so eloquently in the past -- after deflation, the dollar price of all goods may drop, but Gold will become relatively more valuable. This does not even factor in the pending desire for gold as an asset that is noone elses liability.

James: That's quite a stretch. You seem to have begun with a factoid and managed to stretch it into a non sequitor. Or at the very least it was a gigantic digression from the specific ( infant mortality ) to the general ( that we Mericans are all wealthy assholes with no heart ) .

I suppose it's true that the Peoples Paradise of Cuba does indeed manage to contain it's infant mortality to a rate lower than the US. ...... Paradise being what it is and all.

OTOH, I wonder if you have any idea of the rate of voluntary repatriation among those infant survivors who floated their asses on innertubes 90 miles to reach this continental hell hole?

I have no idea either but I'm willing to bet this month's welfare check that the number is indiscernible from statistical noise.

I would also freely admit that more could be done to reduce the infant mortality in the US.

One method might be to sterilize all those fully adduced to be addicted to mind altering substances. Either that or kill them outright. Either approach would be remarkably effective. Don't you agree?

Another approach would be to snatch the children from the mothers at birth and see to it that live long enough to avoid being counted in the infant mortality statistics. After that we could return them to the mothers and their death's would be subsequently counted as merely dead junkies.

I could live with a lot of ideas along this line but unfortunately we have the remnants of something that was once known as a constitution. It counts for very little anymore but among other things, that some hold sacred under some conditions, is the right to screw up your life, and the lives of your children, as you see fit without interference from the outside.

If that were not so, we would have far fewer children filled with the sort of social buncombe that forces them to see the world with your sort of vision. After all, in the years ahead, young heads filled with bad ideas will be in as grave a danger as those whelped by addicted mothers. But, that's Kinder and Gentler for you.

James:

Definitely one of the things the US health care system does not address as effectively as we would wish is prenatal care, thus our stats re infant mortality. Infant mortality is not the quintessential measure of the quality of a health care system, however. Note that M.D.s in the northern U.S. still get lots of customers from Canada who are afraid to wait for the Canadian bureaucracy to get around to authorizing treatment. When government takes responsibility for something, it also gets to assume authority over that thing, and then it all gets politicized. Perhaps Canadians trust politicians more than U.S. citizens do. There's no way I want those idiots in Washington controlling health care. We saw what President Hillary's first pass at that job looked like and it scared us off of the idea for good.

Are there things in Cuba that work better than they do in the U.S.? You bet. Prenatal care ( I won't agree that their entire health care system is better ) and day care ( both of which are very typical Communist accomplishments  it keeps the women in the workplace ) and possibly the educational system. But that doesn't make the Cuban people free. Mussolini made the trains run on time, but he was still a Fascist. Does U.S. policy towards Cuba appear stupid? Yes, it does, but as long as a dictator who connived at the destruction of the United States runs Cuba, Cuba will appear to be an enemy to many of us.

Your ding about how the U.S. is only ( in your opinion ) a good place to live if you have money but no conscience is interesting . please tell us where else in the world it's fun to be poor?

James: I don't understand your animus toward The Revered Mr. Gore. He's on your team. Truly he is a tree hugging son of the earth. A colussus among those with a social conscience. ........As destined for social beatification as I am for the sparkling mouth of hell. Clearly and unequivocally, he is one of you.

To berate him so, for a faux pas in such a minor key, is to tear down the giants among you. ....... On second thought; I understand. In your system it would be a sacrilege to lust after greatness. A violation of that special code of those who would pander after the mediocre. A level society, is a just society. Eh?

Perhaps, tis better, in the end, to follow sports assiduously and bask in the reflected glory of those who are able to excel in a socially acceptable fashion. Such as Micheal Jackson uh, Jordan. ........ However, in the end, the social code demands that all competition cease. Then what?

http://www.owca.com/control.html
then click the back button for more.

Don't know why; but discussions of socialism always remind me of a great old Merle Haggard tune:

"We'll all be drinkin' that free bubbleup,
and eatin' that rainbow stew.
Eatin' rainbow stew with a silver spoon,
underneath that sky of blue. ........"

'N you get the idea. Though it'll probably be fish head stew, more likely.

Though I feel deeply for women who have struggled to bear children and for the children who struggle to survive and for the fathers thereof.
"Modern" health care is begetting a growing pool of people who are increasingly reliant on ever more intensive health care in order to survive and bear children who, in turn, are more dependent on the miracles of modern health care...
an ever increasing spiral of escalating health care needs.

Sadly, one of the potential impacts of Y2K is to pull the technological support out from under those who depend on it to survive and reproduce. As a species increasingly dependent on medical technology - many of our individuals may find life without that technology very harsh. Unmitigated nature cold-bloodedly screens out those who are unable to cope with it's challenges. If Y2K and the four horsemen inflict upon us in the developed world what much of the rest of world commonly endures - we may come to regard such a return to nature's rule as "cruel".

For Polarbear ..
heah heah ..

For Erle again..
What did James say that got you
started ?? Enjoyed you diatribe
but who are you mad at??

For James
Sorry for assault

For Earl ..
On points of prenatal/and child
care .. this merely underlines
socialist idea of controlling the
next generation .. the "Village"
will raise them and Vampires like
Bill and Hillary will run the
village.
The little devils cant be trusted
with their parents .. child abuse
you know .. like they beat you to
death with every day in the media ..
Cant trust the churches either ..
all pederasts .. But your kids are
SAFE with BILL.

In my late night rambings I came across a posting of yours and it jogged my memory that you had invited me to E-mail you a few days ago. It slipped my mind and now I don't know you address. When you see this, please post it again or feel free to e-mail me - Strad1@idt.net. Sorry for the mental fog. I do try to stay on top of things better.

To all us Father's - hope we all have a really special day.

An emerging technology will soon {if it survives Y2K} yield an endless supply of made-to-order perfect {or customizably imperfect} crystals. Diamonds of any size and "cut" could be built atom-by-atom by these molecule-sized machines. So much for the premium price of De Beers diamonds. We could have optically precise diamond eyeglasses.
GOLD, SILVER, and the other PMs could be mined by sending these little critters into ore bodies to extract the metals atom-by-atom and return to their hives - like bees with nectar and pollen. The cost of production of these PMs and all metals would fall precipitously while the supply burgeons. Recovery of any metal or element would be possible from landfills, effluent streams, and seawater.
It has been said of nanotechnology that the optimistic view is that we may have it available in 20 years. The pessimistic view is that we may have it in 10 years. Why? Because of the disruption of every industry during the transition. Manufacturers of low-fat, low cholesteral foods and growers of organic produce would perish because we each would have a little roto-rooters continuously purging our bodies of arterial deposits, excess fat and other toxins {including alchohol - for better or worse}. Tobacco and liquor companies, on the other hand, could flourish.
Though referring back to my earlier post - we would then devolve to such dependence on such technology that we could not survive without it - again for better or worse.
For more info:
http://nanozine.com/

Dittos, brabo!

James just how many people have to be slain on the alter of Karl Marx before you socialist are happy. Lenin and Stalin polished off over 20 million, the Great Leader of the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party: Adolph Hitler ( oh yes he was a socialist! ) was responsible for a world war costing another 20 million and who knows how many people died under Mao? Castro only a small mass murder, but then he only had a little population to experiment with, social engineering kills. You rail on against the United States, but we have one problem none of the great Socialist Experiments have ever had, the problem of illegal immigration from your happy workers paradises! How can you egg these butchers on? To propose socialism in the latter part of the 20th century is to be stupid or blind.

I know people in other countries are concerned with how Washington is acting like a bully boy, well before FDR came along the US for the most part minded its own business. As the American socialist gather more and more power to do good they decided to stop being selfish and extend the benefits of all of their wisdom to the rest of the world too. Socialism implies a stong government with a Klinton or a Gore at its lead.

According to this site over a thousand tons of gold per day were cleared in May by the London Bullion Market Association. Who is selling and buying all this gold? Sometimes I feel only Kitcoites are interested in the gold market. Obviously I am wrong. There are a lot of people out there who don't trust the governmental monetary authorities it appears. And maybe even those authorities don't trust each other? Ingotwetrust!

Let's see if I can get the right URL posted? http://www.gold.org/Pages/Gedt1.htm
That's better!

Having a little trouble this morning. It is the Weekly Commentary for June 8-12 that gives the figures I mentioned.

The cost of medical care in the US is exorbitant because providers of medical treatment assume you have health insurance or access to some means by which a large group pays most of your medical expenses. They also assume you have no choice but to buy from them at whatever price they set because they figure that when you need medical care you are often in a position where you can not refuse. They price their services accordingly. A result of such practices is that many of us forgo any medical care including checkups or tests because of the expense. Also - as the doctors I worked with in the USAF said - why do a test if you can not do anything about the results anyway?

During the CRASH- What happened to Bonds ,Did they hold there value or were they wiped out also ???????

Similar to a cash discount. Since they don't have to hassle with government or insurance forms and wait for months to get paid they ought to give gold-on-the-barrelhead customers half off the standard prices based on insurance reimbursements.
P.S. My 03:26 is not pro-Eugenics. I am resigned to the fate that nature should coldly and appropriately cull maladapted genes from the species - including mine.

Sunday June 21, 2:59 am Eastern Time

WEEK AHEAD - Japan stocks standing at crossroads

By Hiroko Nakata

TOKYO, June 21 ( Reuters ) - The Japanese stock market will stand at a new crossroads in the
week ahead, traders say.

The gyrating market of recent weeks could either sink to new lows or start a slow claw back to
recovery depending on whether Japan takes swift action to lift its recession-hit economy and solve
its bad-loan problems.

Keiko Kondo, a strategist at Merrill Lynch Japan Inc, said: ``Whether the hopes ( for fresh action )
can keep the Nikkei 225 from falling back totally depends on whether the government can restore
investor confidence by actually solving the problems of the economy and of the financial sector.''

Last Wednesday's surprising intervention by Japan and the United States in the currency market
kept Japan's key stock average from sliding to its post-bubble low of 14,309, but the downside is
still vulnerable, traders said.

On Friday, the Nikkei average of 225 leading shares closed at 15,267.98, down 245.65 points
from its closing a week earlier.

The stock average had tumbled below 15,000 last week for the first time since mid-January.

``The Nikkei 225 is poised to spike up or slide further,'' said Hitoshi Ichio, senior manager at
Commerz Securities ( Japan ) Co Ltd.

If the government delays showing clear signs of new reform steps, such as a permanent tax cut or
more action on Japanese banks' bad loans, the Nikkei is highly likely to drop through 14,309, he
said.

Brokers see the 14,309 level, the lowest price since the burst of the ``bubble'' period of inflated
assets in the late 1980s, as a solid support point.

A meeting of the Group of Seven ( G7 ) and 11 Asian nations in Tokyo on Saturday said in a
statement that Japan needed to take swift and concrete action to clean up its economy for the benefit
not only of itself but for Asian and global economies.

``The statement has a certain impact because Japan sent a clear message to other countries ( that it
will take action ) . But the market is still sceptical whether Japan will actually embark on stuructural
reform,'' said Kiyoshi Kimura, strategist at Societe Generale Securities Co.

Strategists said moves by the government to stabilise the financial system is particularly important
because of mounting worries over some banks' financial health.

On Sunday, a Japanese daily reported that the ailing Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd ( 8303.T )
( LTCB ) is discussing a possible merger with Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank its largest shareholder.

LTCB declined comment on the Asahi Shimbun report on Sunday, but LTCB sources said on
Saturday it was considering a merger, involving government fund support, as one way out of its
financial difficulties from bad loan burdens.

LTCB, which has been hit hard by speculation over its financial strength, was pounded in the wake
of an announcement on Thursday by Moody's Investors Service that it had lowered LTCB's
subordinated debt rating to B1 from Ba1.

On Friday, shares of Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd ( LTCB ) briefly plunged below the
psychologically important 100-yen level for the first time since its listing in the 1950's.

`` ( If LTCB merges with DKB ) , the news is going to ease market worries about the stability of the
financial sector,'' SocGen's Kimura said.

Before last week's joint currency intervention, a lack of government action had deepened worries
that the Nikkei average would plunge to 14,309, as below that point there are no clear support
points.

``Though concerns over a possible plunge to 14,309 have subsided for now, that doesn't mean that
the worries are gone for good,'' said Masatoshi Sato, manager at Kankaku Securities Co Ltd.

Sunday June 21, 2:59 am Eastern Time

WEEK AHEAD - Japan stocks standing at crossroads

By Hiroko Nakata

TOKYO, June 21 ( Reuters ) - The Japanese stock market will stand at a new crossroads in the
week ahead, traders say.

The gyrating market of recent weeks could either sink to new lows or start a slow claw back to
recovery depending on whether Japan takes swift action to lift its recession-hit economy and solve
its bad-loan problems.

Keiko Kondo, a strategist at Merrill Lynch Japan Inc, said: ``Whether the hopes ( for fresh action )
can keep the Nikkei 225 from falling back totally depends on whether the government can restore
investor confidence by actually solving the problems of the economy and of the financial sector.''

Last Wednesday's surprising intervention by Japan and the United States in the currency market
kept Japan's key stock average from sliding to its post-bubble low of 14,309, but the downside is
still vulnerable, traders said.

On Friday, the Nikkei average of 225 leading shares closed at 15,267.98, down 245.65 points
from its closing a week earlier.

The stock average had tumbled below 15,000 last week for the first time since mid-January.

``The Nikkei 225 is poised to spike up or slide further,'' said Hitoshi Ichio, senior manager at
Commerz Securities ( Japan ) Co Ltd.

If the government delays showing clear signs of new reform steps, such as a permanent tax cut or
more action on Japanese banks' bad loans, the Nikkei is highly likely to drop through 14,309, he
said.

Brokers see the 14,309 level, the lowest price since the burst of the ``bubble'' period of inflated
assets in the late 1980s, as a solid support point.

A meeting of the Group of Seven ( G7 ) and 11 Asian nations in Tokyo on Saturday said in a
statement that Japan needed to take swift and concrete action to clean up its economy for the benefit
not only of itself but for Asian and global economies.

``The statement has a certain impact because Japan sent a clear message to other countries ( that it
will take action ) . But the market is still sceptical whether Japan will actually embark on stuructural
reform,'' said Kiyoshi Kimura, strategist at Societe Generale Securities Co.

Strategists said moves by the government to stabilise the financial system is particularly important
because of mounting worries over some banks' financial health.

On Sunday, a Japanese daily reported that the ailing Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd ( 8303.T )
( LTCB ) is discussing a possible merger with Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank its largest shareholder.

LTCB declined comment on the Asahi Shimbun report on Sunday, but LTCB sources said on
Saturday it was considering a merger, involving government fund support, as one way out of its
financial difficulties from bad loan burdens.

LTCB, which has been hit hard by speculation over its financial strength, was pounded in the wake
of an announcement on Thursday by Moody's Investors Service that it had lowered LTCB's
subordinated debt rating to B1 from Ba1.

On Friday, shares of Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd ( LTCB ) briefly plunged below the
psychologically important 100-yen level for the first time since its listing in the 1950's.

`` ( If LTCB merges with DKB ) , the news is going to ease market worries about the stability of the
financial sector,'' SocGen's Kimura said.

Before last week's joint currency intervention, a lack of government action had deepened worries
that the Nikkei average would plunge to 14,309, as below that point there are no clear support
points.

``Though concerns over a possible plunge to 14,309 have subsided for now, that doesn't mean that
the worries are gone for good,'' said Masatoshi Sato, manager at Kankaku Securities Co Ltd.

Bonds did very well compared to stocks, but still declined as the US sank
into depression. Of course, if yor bonds happened to be those of a company that went bankrupt you didn't do so well.

http://cpcug.org/user/invest/sdivbyld.html

Date: Sat Jun 20 1998 20:06 JP

"There was so much liquidity during two years of the depression that banks paid a negative interest rate of 1% to hold their money in treasuries."

JP: If you would be kind enough to provide some resources for the above?

thnx - bbml

http://www.usatoday.com/money/waggon/wag1229.htm

Don't think you have untill the clock ticks over....FY will hit months before the clock rools to 00, so we will know what is coming by the governmental chaos we see world wide.

IF the April date goes by with little to no problem then every thing I have posed below is pure fantasy........If England is unable to pay it's bills......................
Then we know it is all over but the screaming.

Time table.

Possible failure dates:
Small failures due to EOY projections start Jan 1 1999
Huge foreign failures start between April 1-14th due to Fiscal Year turn over in England ( and Japan? )
Stocks world wide plunge.
US markets lose 3000-4000 points as Europes economy goes into the trash heap.........
Panic starts in USA........Food......Cash.........Gas.
All start to become scarce as people wake up to Y2K in a matter of days.
Slow drift towards economic oblivion as bank runs become frequent
..........................degrades slowly after initial crash.

States Fiscal years start July 1-14th..........................More crashes, panic renews.

September see's 120 day bussiness plans preciptate more bussiness computer failures..............Food riots begin in larger cities

September 9,1999 = 9/9/99 = date null string for many systems...........
Significant crashes for COBOL based systems start.

October FY 2000 starts on Fedral Computers.............
Federal government ceases to exist as a financial entity............
complete banking collapes as fed can't transfer money....................
Major cities start to burn.

December brings power ouatges and brown outs due to failue of 2-3 week transportation schedules.

New years eve ( best case 400,000,000 chips fail world wide following the click of midnight ) ( worst case 4,000,000,000 chips just pop ) Water Treatment, Power, Transportation although majorly crippled by months of failure and economic problems just snap to a halt...............................................TEOTWAWKI

5-10 year period of complete anarchy world wide...........................
Provided the nukes don't or can't launch due to nervous nellies on both sides.

4/5 of the worlds population will be dead.

Now a lot of us have been thinking that something bad is going to happen......................
but with industry saying that 1-10% of FOUR BILLION chips will go belly up...............
Do the BIG SCARY MATH THING!!!!!!!! and realize that there is NO SOLUTION!

Think of what the GOVT. is saying..................We can't do this.....................
GUESS WHAT......................THEY CAN"T DO IT.......................................................
OUR INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING TO GO AWAY......................................................................
IF YOU WANT TO LIVE LEAVE THE CITIES BEFORE NOVEMBER.................................................

NOAH'S ARK... If it happened today:

And the Lord spoke to Noah and said, "In six months I'm going to make

it rain until the whole earth is covered with water and all the evil

people are destroyed. But I want to save a few good people, and two of every

kind of living thing on the planet. I am commanding you to build an Ark."

And in a flash of lightning, He delivered the specifications for an Ark.

"Okay," said Noah, trembling with fear and fumbling with the blueprints.

"Six months, and it starts to rain," thundered the Deity. "You'd

better have the Ark completed, or learn to swim for a very long time."

Six months passed, the skies clouded up and rain began to fall.

The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard, weeping.......And

there was no Ark.

"Noah," shouted the Lord, "Where is the Ark?"

"Lord, please forgive me!" begged Noah. "I did my best. But

there were big problems. First, I had to get a building permit for

the Ark construction project, and your plans didn't meet code. So I had

to hire an engineer to re-draw the plans. Then I got into a big

fight over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system. Then my

neighbor objected, claiming I was violating zoning by building

the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning

commission."Then I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because

there was a ban on cutting trees to save the Spotted Owl. I had to

convince the U.S. Fish and Wildlife that I need the wood to save the Owls. But

they wouldn't let me catch any owls. So, no owls.

"The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to

negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before anyone would pick up a saw or hammer. Now we have sixteen

carpenters going on the boat, and still no owls.

"Then I started gathering up animals, and got sued by an animal

rights group. They objected to me taking only two of each kind. Just

when I got the suit dismissed, EPA notified me that I couldn't complete

the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your

proposed flood. They didn't take kindly to the idea that they had no

jurisdiction over the conduct of a Supreme Being.

"Then the Army Corps of Engineers wanted a map of the proposed

new flood plain. I sent them a globe. Right now, I'm still

trying to resolve a

complaint from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission over

how many Croatians I'm supposed to hire. The IRS has seized all

my assets, claiming I'm trying to avoid paying taxes by leaving the country.

And I just got a notice from the state about owing them some kind

of use tax.

"I really don't think I can finish the Ark for at least another five

years," Noah wailed.

The sky began to clear. The sun began to shine. A rainbow

arched across the sky.

Noah looked up and smiled. "You mean you're not going to destroy

the earth?" he asked hopefully.

"No," said the Lord sadly. "The Government already has............."

In my family's HMO the doctors aren't allowed to accept

cash payments or barter. They run the risk of being booted

from the group and having no patients referred to them.

These are administrative machinations aimed at some sort

of total control of large groups of patients. Some of

the doctors are resisting this however they can. Simply

talking about it seems pretty effective in demonizing

the insurance company efforts at overall manipulation.

http://www.ml.com/woml/forum/millen.htm

share-fin....

the peopleo sleepwalkers cannot imagine the scenario you present..

robert heinlein wrote of mass-psychology, and psycho-history.....
the results of dis-enfranchised peopleo is utter chaos.....imagine,
those who have had the silver spoon of life at their bed-side from
inception...suddenly being given the rusty spoon the masses have
licked for aeons..the masses will not give-up their spoon....
it will be a fight for survival....the new 'freeways' being built have
concrete barriers on all sides....let one accident happen.....the
'freeway' will become that which it cannot be, a road-block keeping
the peopleo from leaving their cities....

yes, the fin who shares is right.......the actual scenario will be
heightened by our suppossed minions pursuing their historical goals.....
babylon......as performed by rush.......

this party is over.....wait for the masses to realize they are trapped...
the big camps being constructed here in the us will be full of us
citizens....the special forces seen operating here in the deep south,
are preparing for ops in the us.......

the greatest grab of civil liberties is just around the corner....
this is the nwo........welcome to their world...soylent green.

cherokee!;...looking.at.the.future....from.the.past.....ALLABOARD.

I did not want to get Kitco started on the socialized medicare debate again because I usually can't resist the temptation to point out if not straighten out the misinformation at least about the Canadian system that immediately pours on to the screen when the topic is brought up. This time I'm just going to let the misinformation sit in the archives until it comes up again next week or maybe today. "Except" to say that only pre payment for treatment in the US requires a physician to OK and government Ok--everything else you walk into the Doc's office or hospital show them your card to make sure you are not an American. Anyone here ever hear that US citizens were geting fake ID and getting free treatment all along the border until about 2 years ago when the new Ontario Gov--a conservative gov--put a stop to it?

http://x10.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=363158636&CONTEXT=898017987.388169829&hitnum=3

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis.html

The US "system" of health care delivery has evolved, along with many other aspects of economic life in the US, from a free market with transparent market controled pricing to a market controled by committees with political intervention and protection the rule of the day. We have the worst of the Canadian system without its benefits. After 40 years ( 25 in private practice ) in this system I have changed 180 degrees in my view. Danm it, if they're going to run it, let them take it over and cut out the BS. As with many basic issues, it will not be resolved until a spade is called a spade.

Thank-you for a great & good dose of Sunday morning humor. ....

laughter - truely the best medicine; thanks again.

Perhaps you may be nominated by the kitcoites of the free-world

for 2 of their Oscars: the first for "Best Hmorous Story-teller"

and, the second for "Best Bibilical story adapted to modern times".

Altho I am not particularly sympathetic to the owl-savers, ( unless they are solid gold ones ) , I also am not sympathetic to ideas that encourages the polarization of

"free-market-entrpreneurs" vs "environmentalists".

The almost complete destruction of native forests, all over

this living planet Earth -- has been nowhere been perpetrated,

with any more grabbing, groveling greed and callous disregard --

than in the Southeastern & Northwestern United States.

Replacing native & "old growth" forests, with "tree farms", by

way of clear-cutting, etc. ...... is nothing short of raping the lungs of the earth. Without the trees, the earth will loose its ability to breathe. And tree-farm trees simply do not breathe ( -exchange

CO/2 for O/2 ) as efficiently, or as abundantly,

as native forests do.

If we continue to destroy the forests & natural habits, we will continue to deplete the earth's oxygen,

and ruin her water-sheds.

An important issue, and question, for we free-market,

self-reliant students of gold, history, and liberty;

might be to ask ourselves the following.

Can we really hold on to the pretense of justifying

the belief that -- for the sake of corporate profits,

& shareholder dividends -- we are entitled to exploit

this natural resource ( without any restraint ) ;

and that if we eliminate the old growth & native forests,

replacing them with "tree-farms", so be it -- it is justified.

If we hold on to this kind of thinking, and

the over-simplification of the "free-market-individualist" vs

the "environmentalist" ..... we will continue to witness, and be party to, the rape of the earth. The implications are

far-reaching, for all of life, whether we may be consciously aware of it or not -- Chief Seattle was right: the earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth.

If we continue to strangle and shatter the web of life,

it will ultimately impact the life of every human-being on

the planet, including we esteemed kitcoites and our portfolios.

The wholesale destruction of the native forests, is the

destruction of the lungs of the earth.

So, altho I sincerely appreciate the delightful, refreshing

humor of the 'Sunday service at kitco'; we are only kidding

ourselves -- and mocking the value of freedom and human-life --

if we hold on to the simplistic generalizing that

that separates those concerned about the environment,

( -including the native forests ) from those who invest in gold, and subscribe to free-markets, and economic self-reliance.

Just been at the beach for two days
Staring at the sea and thinking.

Thinking how the news from the top is not getting better.
They are starting to admit - come a little cleaner.

But I just wonder how much they really know?
Compared to what they are spilling.
And I really feel they're hiding heaps.

Standing on the crows-nest - I don't like what I see.
That incoming cyclone - doesn't look too good, to me.

The writing's on the wall now
The message is in the air.

And I CARE...

I have come to the same conclusion. In five years there will neither be any hospitals and very few competent physicians left due to financial pressures caused by the medial insurance industry. They will, for a moment, have the best of all possible insurance worlds: a stream of in-coming premiums and no where for them to be spent. The imbeciles in wahington dc who encouraged this development will then have to build a new medical system from scratch.



Very few understand the effects this is already having upon regional economies and real estate as some areas lose effective medical services earlier than others.



Maybe we could get Canada to take over the skeleton of our medical establishment before it is all gone. There's a job for Selby, by Jove! He can ask the salient question over and over again, seer-like: "What is the cost of production." ;- ) ) ) ) )

medial=medical

...that we can't even comprehend."

Absolutely chilling front page article in this morning's Boston Globe. Explains that the Defense Department has completed only 50% of Y2K repairs on mission critical systems after five years of work, leaving 18 months to complete the remaining 50%. Says only the US, Australia, Brittan, and Canada are making any preparations. Other nations will be without effective defenses or an ability to accurately assess threats.

At this rate, with officials like Hambre talking in such dire terms, the panic-prone public can be expected to start to panic soon, with the optimists waiting for more concrete evidence of a coming disaster.

-EJ

Aurophile: Don't worry about the physicians and nursing shortage in the US. Ontario alone produces many 100's more of each every year than can be employed here--socialism in educational planning no doubt. Having worked in a hospital for about a quarter century I heard all kinds of them saying how they would go to the US and many do. Once they get a sense of the HMO's and the insurance costs many come back and wait their turn to get a job. Hate to think of the cost of over production of these folks.

White Sands Missile Range in NM is conducting a simulated total command Y2K rollover in the coming weeks. Watch out for in-coming traffic. ( Which brings up the obvious question. Why don't all organizations take one of their tandem backups and devise simulated Y2K's? )

We don't have a shortage of bodies either. Only a shortage of funds to attract the best to the work and a place for them to do their work.

This week Barron's has written an article on PKX. I would appreciate if somebody could publish the article on Kitco Board.Thanks

ROFL

Does anyone know from where the name "TVX" comes from? Are the letters
the founder's initials or what?

Loved your story. I, too, love the heat ( as opposed to the cold ) . I'll take June, July and August anytime over Dec., Jan. and Feb. ( Brrrrrrrr ) . I will admit, A/C makes sleeping comfortable. It's too bad the US doesn't have a state south of Texas, N.M. or Ariz. down to around Guadalajara, Mexico; I'd move there in a N.Y. minute. I shiver when the temp. gets below 60 deg. F. And just think about all those old Mexican silver and gold mines, plus incredible scenery. Sam Houston was right; Texas should have annexed Mexico; his biggest mistake was advocating non-secession during the War of Northern Aggression. I don't wish to offend anyone; but we all have our preferences.

Too expensive. They can only test fixes and new software during off-hours. Except in the online-processing/transaction process applications in specific industries, such as financial services and gaming ( lottery ) , where continuous availability is required to keep the business going, corporations cannot afford the cost of redundant systems. The military tends to have redundancy for back-up during system failures due to hardware or operating system faults. However, in the event of an application failure, all systems fail.
-EJ

A Father's love - more precious even than gold.

It's still permissible to go to Guadalajara in winter even if you don't own it. It did, however, snow there this winter. Read Cormac Maccarthy's books or Larry McMurtry's Laredo for a description of some bone-cilling winters in Mexico.

When is Congress going to act in the interests of the people and allow HMOs to be sued for negligence. Let the patient rule not the accountants, greedy insurance companies and greedy HMO management profiteers. They make misdiagnosis a brain tumor the patient dies and the HMO gets off scott free. It is time to stop incentivising doctors not to treat. This profit at any cost 90s mentality ala Chainsaw Dunlap has to go. Put people/workers first make management and owners who benefit from our society tow the line. The stk mkt collapse will go along way towards a more progressive society. Instead of talking about SS cuts lets talk about taking the tax cap off for high wage earners and cutting the tax for workers. The workers in the US are not receiving an amount of the wealth commensurate with their contribution.. THIS HAS to CHANGE!

Congress legally encouraged the HMO's and gave them preferential treatment after decades of complaints of high costs by voters and corporations. You asked for it, you got it. Enjoy!

Lately I have been giving a great deal of thought to the people that live in the inner cities. These people will be the most severely affected/effected. It is disturbing that in a country where the political pie holes yap on a daily basis about the urban-poor being left behind, that they face a possibility of something far worse and not a word about Y2K is reaching their ears and minds in the US.

Y2K will most certainly bring about something, where on the yardstick of hardship to annoyance to aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it will fall I do not know. But those who shall be most afflicted with whatever it brings know nothing about it and are not even being given a chance to prepare. Entire families, and especially children, especially the children

To the Editor:

As the Asian financial situation worsens ( front page, June 17 ) , suggestions like those in Thomas L. Friedman's June 13 column defending the International Monetary Fund exaggerate the good the fund can do at its best and minimize the damage it does at its worst. The Asian crisis that began as a snowflake in Thailand a year ago snowballed into a threat to the world economy because of I.M.F. policy blunders of the kind that have characterized its economic approach for the last 25 years.

The amount of capital available to the monetary fund is tiny compared with the size of the problems in Asia it has created by browbeating the region's governments into raising taxes and devaluing currencies.

When a currency is attacked by speculators, it is because they are betting on a devaluation. The worst response of a government is to raise taxes, which reduces the demand for the currency and thus makes it harder to defend.

The I.M.F. applies the same formula, never learning from its experience, because its analytical framework is etched in stone.

JUDE WANNISKI

Morristown, N.J., June 17, 1998

The writer is an economist.

Some change has to be made to protect patients and give them either legal recourse through the courts or some sort of arbitration proceeding. Why treat anybody if you can save money. Again this "profit thing" has gone too far. Hats off to the striking GM workers, their success is the people's success and capital's defeat!

to the perfect quick cooking tool on a non-electric planet...the WOK...

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe/globehtml/172/Military_on_Year_2000_alert.htm
''There is a web of connectedness,'' Martin noted. If even one connection in this web has a Year 2000 problem, the whole system becomes ''a house of cards.''

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They know more than they're telling.
So why are they spilling the beans?

Not worse than I think.
Worse than they want to think?

Gotta sleep on that one.

~~~~~~~~
Promy
The poet is 85 today - what a Dad.

~~~~~~~
Tol1
I care for the children.
I fear for the children.

Adult games are no fun for kids.
It just ain't fair.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a339311.htm

Y2K MAKES ELECTIONS A RISKY PROPOSITION CONGRESS TAKES UNPRECEDENTED STEP

Due to the computer chaos it will be impossible to make accurate compilations with respect to scheduled elections. This along with the reigning economic problems has resulted in the Congress adopting a declaration postponing the November, 2000 election. William. J. Clinton will remain President in the interest of stability until order can be restored.

In other news, Hilliary Rodham Clinton has been appointed to lead a commission to investigate who is responsible for Y2K and the resultant financial meltdown Bill Gates and others have been subpeoned to testify and promised immunity if.....

http://www.y2knews.com

~~~~~Y2k newsgroup
http://www.dejanews.com/home_ps.shtml
Do a search on " comp.software.year-2000 "

After about a week of discussion with the USGS re quakes, there is nothing they can tell about Belarus 8.4 It sounds legit.

IMHO a big part of the reasoning behind maintaining a part of one's portfolio in gold is as a hedge against times of social unrest. As such I believe it is important to know where we are in relation to the natural evolution of government and society. In doing so I believe it is important to at least be conversant with history so that one is able to draw analogies. IMHO

Once we read history we see that we are not much different from our ancestors, eh? So its reassuring from the viewpoint that POG has always gone up after it was suppressed. IMHO

Marx' letter mentioning a couple of parallels between his philosophy and 18th century Jacobinism. Introduction to the idea straight from the horse's mouth. I'm not making this stuff up! IMHO

http://english-www.hss.cmu.edu/Marx/1848-free.poland.txt

David Andress has some pretty good basic links for the French revolution. IMHO http://www.hs.port.ac.uk/Users/david.andress/frlinks.htm

Two fairly concise listings of the history of the French revolution. IMHO

http://www.unionvillehs.com/history/ModWest/frenrevo.html

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/lect/mod12.html

You seem to have forgotton that HMO's are all government contractors. They sell capitated service to manage Medicaire and Medicaide clients. IMHO

I think that we should all have a similar setup for legal services, i.e. Legicaire. Then we'll see who's working for the public interest! IMHO

You seem to have forgotton that HMO's are all government contractors. They sell capitated service to manage Medicaire and Medicaide clients. IMHO

I think that we should all have a similar setup for legal services, i.e. Legicaire. Then we'll see who's working for the public interest! IMHO

from Cuervo Central to him...if it is not...we shall drink to your Dad and Fathers everywhere as a measure of good luck to all on this day...

Namaste'

Business or Politik?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-06/21/224l-062198-idx.html

Etes-vous Francais? Il est medicare ne medicaire et ne medicaide. Non nous aimons le peuple de France parce que Ils avont une bon gouvernment.

Merci Beucoup , bonjour.

http://guide-p.infoseek.com/Content?arn=a1202LBY537reulb-19980619&col=NX
Bourses for courses.

bbl

http://www.discovery.org/y2k1.html
Bruce Chapman, a former Director of the U.S. Census Bureau and Director of the White House Office of Planning and Evaluation, is president of Seattle-based Discovery Institute.

Given the workload in bringing critical systems to a point of Y2K compliance,
Bill Gates is among those who propose that,
"From today forward, 'triage' is the order of the day."

Your posts were presented well & taken well. I want you to know that I'm far from a socialist. I think what many otherwise fine & compassionate Americans seem to miss is the big bully image that you present to the rest of the world. Let's face it, you know full well that the embargo has never hurt Castro or his cohorts, but it's been going on for 30 yrs now & it definitely hurts the little people who are powerless when it comes to removing Castro. Ditto Iraq. It's always the innocent & powerless who are hurt but the average American is so brainwashed by the corporate/state controlled media, that they come to accept these gross injustices against humanity. In other words in the spirit of free play, I root for the underdog. If you hav'nt got the guts to go in & remove Castro & Saddam, don't continue to make the innocent people suffer interminably.

Off to participate in the socialist game of golf.

John D.-Trying to see some light at the end of tunnel, but afraid it's a Japanese bullet express about to smash all the SEAsian economies.

It has been speculated by some posters that the turmoil surrounding Y2K may actually begin substantially in advance of January 1, 2000. I think that is a pretty good assumption. I'm wondering how far in advance it might be before things start to unravel to the point where serious problems emerge. I want to be as prepared as I can reasonably afford and am not in a position to do everything at once as I would like to. So, I must budget my time and money to approach a state of readiness as best I can before things start to get tough. Are there any ideas out there about how long we REALLY have to get ready? Sixteen months? Fourteen months? A year? LESS?

Argent...I think that things are going to get scarce as the public becomes better informed. For example...gasoline powered electric generators are going to become "non-available"...long term food storage items...even perhaps guns and ammunition as well. A good generator with 240 and 120 output could be a real jewel ... I would do these things now...not wait until the crowd moves....And this y2k thing is just now hitting the public awareness. my $.20 worth...

very same question. It is my contention that now is the time to start. It seems to me that the first and foremost item of preperation is to being reading the many different points of view on survival. In that manner one can begin to ascertain where in the mobius loop of survival one fits.

There are also smaller everyday common sense things that one can start with such as candles, wind-up radios and flashlights, etc. Sort of the "darn it, I know better, I should always have these things around no matter what might happen."

There are some wonderful sites from the nuclear to the urban survival methods one needs to undertake. Hydroponics, etc. I shall try and put together a list of sites that I have compiled from here there and where ever...

bbs

Here are some quotes from article, published in Dutch weekly "Computable" on June 19, 1998. I apologize in advance for not professional translation
~~~~~~~~
"Thousands Y2000 specialists in the waiting room"
"Millennium Platform" has started personnel selection campaign in May. There was more then 11 thousand reactions. Now it is up to enterprises to hire this people Out of 11000 people about 3 thousands received "Thank you" letter. They will not be requested by MP. Two thousand persons are now candidates for definite places in various companies. Six thousand passed the test So far demand for Y2K specialists is not high "Randstad Millennium Diensten" [daughter of one of the biggest Dutch detachment companies - D] points out that demand stay lower than offer. "At this moment we have 200 people employed, some of them are used in EURO-projects. We have no assignment for about 30 Y2K specialists Capacity is not a problem. There are enough people around". States employment service: " There was no large scale analysis of demand for this kind of people. We will see, how this demand will show itself". Expectations are that demand will pick this autumn For the time being people mast wait. The future of millennium specialist is not clear. First they have to wait for request for their knowledge. Then in most cases they receive a contract that expire together with millenium. "

You might check with Sharefin. He has the best assessment of the situation I have seen. He's probably in bed now, but figure Aussie time and let him have it.

I have to apologize- I forgot tolerant1. You can't beat his objectivity on the practical level - not to take away from Sharefin

Sunday June 21, 2:20 am Eastern Time
RPT/Commonly asked questions about Japan's bad loans
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980621/japan_econ_4.html

Sunday June 21, 2:59 am Eastern Time
WEEK AHEAD - Japan stocks standing at crossroads

If the government delays showing clear signs of new reform steps, such as a permanent tax cut or more action on Japanese banks' bad loans, the Nikkei is highly likely to drop through 14,309, he said.

Brokers see the 14,309 level, the lowest price since the burst of the ``bubble'' period of inflated assets in the late 1980s, as a solid support point.
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980621/japan_econ_6.html

Sunday June 21, 6:42 am Eastern Time
Japan rules out bad loans action before mid-July
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980621/japan_econ_7.html

HighRise

Prometheus: Thanks for copying this NYTimes letter from Jude Wanninski.

It's true: the IMF doesn't seem to be capable of learning. But the question is in the meantime: do they even want to learn?

The terms and conditions under which they pressure countries into acceptance of their stinking money always hurt the poor ( raising bread and fuel prices ) and, through tax increases, hurt the economies.

And what are the major conditions? To make the governments of the countries of the world more dependent on international banker's credits.
Basically, an IMF "reform" means, roll the guarantee for the credit from the "weaker" hand to the stronger hand. The strongest hand, in IMF view, is always the government of the country in trouble.
The effect is, that the governments have to act as local suppressors of their own people in the interest of foreign bankers.

Because of the above described policy I do not think the IMF wants to learn anything. They know exactly what they do and what effect their terms and conditions have. They want to undermine the local governments and replace them with political movements and assets which help to constitute IMF's NWO. The IMF goals are political suppression and not economic or financial improvement of economies. They use financial conditions to come closer to their political goals.

Alberich the Dwarf

approach on your way to seeing the eclectic information that is available. I have placed the first item as I find it to be the most important. I may die, but I will go happy...Gulp to ya..........

http://www.reserva.com/

http://www.waltonfeed.com/

http://w1.2225.telia.com/~u222500171/survivalism/Survivalism.htm

http://members.aol.com/rafleet/survivalring.htm

scroll down on the above link for lots o links

http://www.hydroponics.com/

http://www.securefuture.com/

http://www.idir.net/~medintz/surv_faq/surv_faq_index.html

http://www.survival-center.com/home1.htm

http://emall.com/spice/Wok.html

A toast to the Poet who gave us the Blue Dress and so much more.

I am the son of Poetry,

Poetry, son of Reflection,

Reflection, son of Meditation,

Meditation, son of Lore,

Lore, son of Research,

Research, son of Great Knowledge,

Great Knowledge, son of Intelligence,

Intelligence, son of Comprehension,

Comprehension, son of Wisdom,

Wisdom, son of the three gods of Dana

from "The Colloquy of the Two Sages", a very old Celtic writing.

large or small city. Some really neat ideas here. That Reserva has taken its toll, but it is one of the only taxes on my life I don't mind, the other is anything a child under five does to me or my possessions!!!

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/1216/page2.html

I fear you are entirely correct.

It is my opinion that those Countries who's public is most dependant on Government will suffer most from Y2K in the way of social problems. The larger the economy the greater the problems. Put in combination with that a very power hungry Federal Government and the outcome of Y2K could be the end of liberty in America. I do hope I'm wrong.

I emeailed for more. Many thanx for this source, Charlie

Happy Father's Day all! May I add...Never take for granted the days you have with your children. My greatest regrets in life are not of the money I lost following gold...but the children I lost without realizing what GOLD they were.

Thanks to all. Re: The gas powered generator. I have already done some research on this and was ready to do it, but then I thought "What good will this do me if the gas stations have no gas?" Of course, you can get a BIG storage tank and fill er up, but even a 100 gallon tank will run out ( sooner than you might think ) . THEN what?

Guns and ammo. I have those and make my own ammo. Food. Don't have near enough. Freeze dried is best, but some posters are saying orders are six months to a year behind. Not sure about this.

On electric generators, someone recommended a diesel. First, they are horribly expensive and larger than needed KW output. Second, I figure diesel fuel will disappear before gasoline.

Four wheel bicycles. Might be handy, but rather expensive ( $1000 - $1500 ) .

There's lots more. Self-sufficiency ain't cheap.

believe the United States will break up into smaller groupings of FREE states. The District of Columbia will rot. The We the People will never forgive them for allowing the situation to unravel in such a manner without REAL and SINCERE warning and education. The military hates the occupants of the District of Columbia and will never fire upon their own, NEVER, this is not the 30s, the reverb from this will surely mean the disolution of the government as we now know it. Screw the IRS and the rest of the leaches. That will become a new motto into the next century.

The FEDERAL who? and where were they...local folks will help local folks and so forth and so on...There will be suffering, perhaps even military action from other countries that want another taste of US, but without question, at least in my mind the Coward Erect will never be able to unite Americans and certainly shall never rule the United States under martial law...

Welcome, gulp to ya!

Alberich @13:20: IMO, you have the IMF nailed down completely. Judged by their actions, for lo these many years, your conclusions are the only conclusions to be drawn. The IMF is nothing but an agent for the NWO. Or international corporate socialism, ....... if I may steal a phrase from Mozel. It's profoundly sad that they are accountable to no one; save the banking trust.

http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/index.html

For James ..
Dont worry about it .. it's only history. It's
nothing personal. I never believed Indonesia anyway.
It will fragment I think. I think that's probably good.
I never really believed Thailand or Malaysia either.
The Phillipines are good for film settings.
I believe Japan China . Nowhere near as bearish as
most here on Japan. Lived there eight years. In Japan
we look at a 40 year or more trend going UP. Do you
really want to go against that trend. I think it will
be OK. Long Nikkei calls sound sweet.. but not yet.
I think Dollar will go down a bit for a short time.
Then WAY UP.
But exchange rates are effects .. attempts to set them
or interfere with them only muddy the water. But I think
we will try to do it for a while ...

For Aurophile ..
Cormac is brillaint .. Blood Meridian .. What a book.

Again ,thanks. I though you might br interested to know that several years ago, a friend of mine and I ran a serious comparison test of the very best tequilas that money could buy. I am a Texas native and once lived on the border for a couple of years, so I think I can speak with some authority.

Anyway, we did a comparison of about four of the very best and to make sure we were not influenced by brand names OR prices OR hype, we did the test in the blind and wrote our preferences down by number, not knowing what was in each glass. The results were surprising. Unfortunately, my memory fails me now, because it has been several years ago. I know this is a letdown, but I will endeavor to find out what we concluded and get back to you at another time. The thing we looked for first was SMOOTHNESS, then taste..The differences were easily discernable. WE went so far as to repeat the whole test just to make sure. Same results.

Most Mexicans will tell you Tequila Herradura ( horseshoe ) is the best. It's not. Sausa and Cuervo were the top ones, I seem to recall. Both were commemorative "issues". But all were special in some way, and rather expensive. Tequila is no different from other alcoholic beverages; there are all kinds and of all qualities. For everyday use, Cuervo Gold used to be one of my favorities.

John Disney: From this morning's paper: Dateline, Richmond VA.

Automatic 5 year jail terms for felons in possession of a firearm appear to have cut homicides by about 50%. From 147 in 1997 to 34, so far this year. Interesting how these things work. Eh?

Now for a really dramatic improvement, they might try summary execution. Hell, it might even cut the infant mortality rate. ........ fewer potential fathers 'n etc.

Since this is father's day, that last post should be amended to read: ".... fewer potential sperm donors", rather than "potential fathers".

What little I know about the water molecule leads me to believe that this source has a bunch to offer. I'm an improviser by necessity, but I quess I better get some real info on this.
In view of the strategical importance of water, not only to drink, this fellow has put something together that I have to know about. Many thanx for the source, Charlie

Speaking of Y2K, warning of its threats to civilization, and advising people to sell their paper and retreat to Gold will, at some point in the next 18 months, be regarded as criminal behavior since it will be equated to "inciting to riot". To further nail our mouths shut they will throw in "advocating overthrow of the government". Further evidence of un-American revolutionary activities by these criminals will be their stores of food, medical supplies, guns, ammo, generators, fuel, and Gold.

Tolerant1 13:57 I agree completely. We have nothing to fear from our own military for the following reasons:

They are all volunteers now and they did not sign up to attack their relatives, friends, and fellow Americans.

Clinton has so gutted the military that it could not possibly do the confiscation and martial law functions that some here imagine. It would take a huge Army to supervise martial law in a country the size of the U.S. Remember, the Germans had about 40 divisions tied up in the Balkans in WWII with little success in repressing the natives.

The major use of the U.S. military in Y2K will be in trying to keep some supplies and services going. That will provide way more than enough for them to do.

Some fear the National Guard more than the Active Army. Fear may be more justified in that case but I think there will be a very high level of no-shows for National Guard duty come Y2K problems. Previously, guardsmen left a calm and secure home situation to go deal with a problem somewhere else. The Y2K problems will hit home everywhere at once and many will choose to stay at home rather than go forth. Unfortunately, similar reactions by police and firemen will reduce their effectiveness. Good side is dont worry too much about the police either, they will have way more to occupy their time than knocking on the doors of gold bugs.

Folks think! Y2K is not a localized problem that can draw resources from unaffected areas. It is the most pervasive and all encompassing disaster that has ever struck mankind. It will be horrible and only the strong, able and prepared will survive with any degree of well being.

I wonder if you could do the same thing on sour mash? If you do, please let me know where to get it. Here in N.C. it's got as rare as hen's teeth. It's the best medicine I ever found for arthritis. Many thanx, Charlie

I think we have seen the top in the dollar. Whether Japan takes or
doesn't take concrete action is irrelevant. If the yen moves to a
new low China will devalue and Hong Kong will end its peg. The U.S.
knows this and irresepective of Japanese action will attempt to keep
this from happening through joint intervention with Japan. If this
course of action appears to not be working, the Fed will lower
short-term interest rates irrespective of the potential inflationary
consequences. The alternative is to allow Asia to collapse.

The best thing that could happen to Japan would be for the yen to rise
against the U.S. dollar without Japan raising interest rates. The
problem with Japan's economy is that the banks can't lend. The reason
for this is the BIS capital standards calling for capital to be 8%
of outstanding loans. The Japanese banks have up to 1/3 of their
loan portfolios in $ denominated loans. As the dollar rises against
the yen, the value of these loans increases but bank capital expressed
in yen remains the same causing the capital ratio to decline. Many
of the banks are just at or below the required ratio so in order to
stay there or get back to it, they must restrain lending or actually
contract lending. This is the reason that despite massive reserve
expansion by the Bank of Japan, the Japanese money supply growth has
been very sluggish.

If the dollar has indeed topped, this has tremendous positive
implications for gold and commodities in general.

I think this intervention has a good chance of being viewed as a success
because the fundamentals have already turned agianst the dollar.
The only reason the dollar continued to rise against the yen was
trend-based hedge fund trading. Intervention can work if it's done
to reverse a trend where the fundamentals have already turned. I would
cite the Plaza Accords of 1985 as a good example.

I cite the following fundamentals: ( 1 ) the rapidly rising U.S. trade
deficit; ( 2 ) the slowing U.S. economy; ( 3 ) an uptick in the U.S. inflation rate; ( 4 ) lower U.S. interest rates; ( 5 ) Clinton's problems;
( 6 ) rapidly expanding U.S. money supply ( M3 up 11.2% for the past 12
months ) ; ( 7 ) competition for reserve currency status from the new
Euro and finally ( 8 ) the U.S. authorities want a lower dollar.

6/20/98 -- 10:54 PM
Gingrich wants $4 billion for year 2000 computer bug
http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news100f.htm

HighRise

different bottles in HONOR of each of ya! Reserva, Cuervo Gold, and some Mezcal...yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...hAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...

chas...no sour mash...I shall have to stock up in your HONOR...

and China then I will think about what I might be doing that is UN-American...till then...he can kiss my USA-SS...

I grew up in a coal strip-mining region. For the past umpteen years I've lived, worked and walked all over a hardrock Gold, Silver, Lead & Zinc region watching the activities and listening to the words of mining companies, miners and their supporters while this entire area was declared a Superfund site due to past and present mining activities.
The lengths to which the above would go to in order to circumvent environmental considerations is amazing. For each dollar that could have been spent to fix a problem they spent several dollars to deny it's existence. On 3-day weekends miners would use the opportunity to dump toxic materials into local streams late Friday figuring it will be out of sight by Tuesday morning. Lip service to preserving history and our environment ended with discovery of recoverable metal values. Old cribbing, railroad beds and other historic structures were valued by the miners as irreplaceable heritage only so long as the mine dumps under them were too expensive reprocess. As soon as a money could be made with those dumps - screw the historic artifacts - the trucks rolled and the loaders loaded. Same for environment. Mining companies concern for environment is limited to the PR department {unless they are forced to do otherwise by legal pressure}. Upon the discovery of potentially recoverable values - these miners threw away their environmental facade and let rip with bulldozers and dynamite. They still do so today. If no one is watching they don't give a damn about the environment, history, or anything else except the money to be made. It is not that most miners are wantonly destructive. They just don't see any value in these other considerations. They view such consideratons are merely impediments placed in front of them by tree-hugging, owl-loving, espresso-drinking, tofu-eating wackos.
On the subject of logging, {and I've a Bachelors in Forestry} loggers and logging companies are an order of magnitude better than miners and mining companies - though that is not saying much. After they logged out New England they moved on to Lake States, then the Northwest and now working on Alaska's panhandle. They do better than slash & burn but logging communities still are short lived. Regardless of the cries about jobs, etc. - as soon as they finish with the old-growth they move on. At least they leave tree farms and some continued sustained-yield tracts behind. That is far better than the decimated landscape and spoiled waters that miners of GOLD, SILVER, COPPER, ZINC, LEAD, COAL, ETC. leave behind where they can get away with it.

6/21/98 -- 11:56 AM
North Koreans living on bark, wild plants, aid officials say
http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news100p.htm

HighRise

Would you please provide us with major planetary alignment dates? I understand that meaningful stock market movements often occur at these times. A URL would be appreciated. Thanks

Living on berries, plants and bark. Health food with low fat content we should be so lucky.

I think you overdid a bit much on your chastising the mining companies. Especially in the U.S. If you feel so stongly about this, what have you done about it? I know they have not been saints, but some of the penalties I have seen would have to make them more careful than you make out. And what has our government done to the lumbering industry in this country for a few owls? There is a cost vs benefit relationship to things, believe it or not.

I've been feeling the same way. However a recent artcle in the Economist ( The Yen - Asian Nightmares, 6/19/98, p.70 ) ) paraphrases Russell Jones, ecnomist at the Tokyo brach of Lehman Bros. that the dollar might fetch Y200 in the ot too distant future, if the government there doesn't reform the country's banking system.

are being force fed fat and sugar through hype media advertising. This poses a long term and present health risk to the children of America. This has not gone unnoticed in North Korea where humanitarian organizations plan to send bark, wild flower and berry recipes to the US in hopes of saving the children and rectifying this horrific food situation which is spreading throughout North America. ( Few health problems can be traced to organic foods like bark, berries or wild plants ) . Lets thank them and wish them luck with their lifesaving humanitarian gestures to save America's children.

thing, neither does the Coward Erect...or the rest of the so-called world leaders. Why doesn't the Coward Erect stay in a Holiday Inn in China and donate the $20,000 a day it costs to stay in his little palace.

World Leaders my a_ _...and they think America is not watching all of this...those JERKS...and RED TED's donation to the UN of 100billion this year could go a long way to feeding those people instead of more horses-ass studies and reports from more panels...

yeah...yeah...yeah...

I'm afraid I agree with Goldbug23 on this one.

from comely1 who is RED TED?

Let the North Koreans eat their Pride.

hubby...of...Credibility Not Nowhere Network fame...

Red Ted and Hanoi Jane?!?!

What have you got against Koreans. Do I detect a little Racial Supremacy here. They are all human beings and deserve our support. Especially the children. WE have to send them FOOD.

I'd like to see some shorts meltdown Monday. Yeah!

My buddy, who is a master mash man, lent his 30 gal still to a neighbor. Neighbor had too big a mouth and the law got him and it. We have to be careful who will build the next one-stainless- so everything is on hold. I guess you know that limbercob corn makes the best mash. Do y'all have that up yonder? Many thanx, Charlie

all those women and children, especially the newly born ones should eat their pride. Not to mention all the men that are watching their familes starve because our jackass of a President sent over reactors instead of food...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...throw something better across the plate... the kids past the left field fence are chasing your last comment I smacked out of the park...down the street...

Is red TED Jane Turner or is it Ted Kennedy I am confused let me get it straight. PS I think the Kennedys are wonderful folks they gave two live to this country and saved us from nuclear holocaust and set the stage for the defeat of USSR.

I would ask that you take a few moments to read the contents of following URL:

http://www.techmgmt.com/restore/fema4.htm

Then I would like you to post your opinions, impressions. I want to

believe the outcome to be similiar to your points of view, however

after reading this URL, I can no longer have that kind of faith.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne06.htm

All: I agree that maintaining relations with China is worthwhile, but it seems that China is getting the lion's share of the deal. By the way, yesterday our local paper had an article about ChinaMissleSatGate. It seems that the Chinese have free access to our GPS systems for their military -- all the necessary codes,etc. Unfortunately it seems that the public and private military GPS systems may both be compromised. It appears that our military now has to develop another secure communications system because of this. That was stated in the article. I am well aware of this kind of situation from the cold war. Due to espionage leaks to Russia, research type scientists at our national defense labs were always hard at work coming up with new secret technology to stay ahead. It seems that the current Democratic administration is making it even harder for the defense scientists to keep up -- and it appears that a major defense type communication system has been compromised.

I do not know if we have another secure GPS type system for the military -- I certainly hope so. I do know that maps of gravitational anomalies are still secret, but with missles using GPS this may no longer be necessary. Also -- during a confrontation, one of the first things to go out will be public communications, and GPS systems. Jamming, etc. Lets hope that we did not give away the baby with the bathwater when we gave China all that encryptation technology which is so useful in using our satellites. I think we did -- if I understand that article correctly. This kind of information is secret, so we may never know for sure.

One thing I am confident of is that our military scientist types are working overtime to plug all the holes in our defense/communications systems that the Dept of Commerce gave away to the Chinese.

How many people have to have lied for BC to be telling the truth?

Nothing racial, just Economics. Guns vs Butter
If the North Koreans want more guns to look tough, they'll just have to pay for it. Why should the rest of the world subsidize their nuclear and conventional arms build-up? If Stalinist Communism is so great and Capitalism is so bad, then why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot?

I haven't had a chance to go back and read posts of the last couple days, so don't know if this has already been posted. Nevertheless, M.K. has got ANOTHER biggie on his site. http://www.usagold.com

effort to bring mining companies, miners, community, local government, merchants, educators, environmentalists, EPA, state agencies, and other concerned, affected and interested parties to one table to discuss how we could 1 ) talk with each other and share information without resorting to name-calling and siege mentality on the part of those who felt their particular ox was being gored, 2 ) resolve the different goals of the above groups so our community could get EPA and Superfund out of town so we could get on with our lives.
RESULTS: None of the above parties who could actually do something would talk with each other without lawyers present. Most of the negotiations between the above parties were carried out behind closed doors with no admittance to those who were not a legally liable PRP {principal responsible party} or a party who had sued for access and proved they were an indispensable party to the proceedings.
OUR MEETINGS were poorly attended because the people we needed most to be there would not attend. The miners assumed the meetings were of by and for the environmentalists. The environmentalists assumed they were of by and for the miners. Wagons were circled by all involved. Anyone caught in the cross fire was assumed by all sides to be "if you are not with us you must be against us". Being seen having breakfast with EPA or environmentalists was viewed by miners as consorting with the enemy and vice versa.
Now that I have a business I can not afford to alienate any of the above groups. But nevertheless I have opened my mouth in defense of both miners and environmentalists and lost business from both groups. I guess I have not learned that freedom of speech does not exist. Yes one has the freedom to speak out but retaliation and retribution will be forthcoming.

I agree with you guys Clinton is a dishonest hypocritical lying abomination. The polls have to be a LIE.

: Executive Order 12919: "National Defense Industrial Resources
: Preparedness" signed by Clinton June 3, 1994, delegates authorities,
: responsibilities and allocations of F.E.M.A.'s Executive Orders ( last
: entry ) for the confiscation of all property from the American people,
: and their re-location and assignment to "labor" camps. The Executive
: Order also supersedes or revokes eleven ( 11 ) previous Executive Orders
: ( from 1939 through 1991 ) and amends Executive Order 10789 and 11790.
: This executive order is a Declaration of War against the American people
: by the Government of the United States in concert with the United
: Nations.

Is there really such a thing as a Democratic Socialist

I believe sharefin has posted the following schedule of events on this forum. Time is of the essence in light of so many unknowns....

Dates precipitating further awareness and possible panic:

1. 7/1/98; The first day of their biennial FY 2000 for 4 of the 50 states. UhOh! Also, the first day of FY 1999 for the other 46 states.

( See number 6 for explanation. These states may start to see the ramifications of the 99 coding problem ) .

2. 10/1/98; This is the first day of FY 1999 for the Federal government.

3. 1/1/99; This date may present quite a few problems with data and software that work on yearly schedules.

4. 7/1/99; This is the first day of FY 2000 for 46 of the 50 states.

5. 8/22/99; The Global Positioning System ( GPS ) uses a 32 bit memory system for it's weeks calculations. This means that every 1042 weeks the system resets to Zero. It's no big deal, they knew about it when they set it up, it's supposed to work this way. However, GPS receivers on the ground will be compromised unless replaced in time.

6. 9/9/99; The date in itself means nothing Y2K wise, but is a code often written to denote "infinity", or to "implement a test for shut down", or "delete all files", and, quite frankly, a host of other commands that will cause all sorts of disruptions.

7. 10/1/99; The Federal Government beginning of FY 2000.

Between Y2K and National Guards imposing Federal Martial Law and Civilian Labor Camps for those suspected of un-American activities.
Sunday has turned pretty gloomy.
FWIW
http://mcwl-www.cwlmain.org/mcwl/Home/Home.html

the Coward Erect is a traitor...plain and simple and I would say there are a minimum of 100million other Americans that agree...I do not care what the surveys say...

Bingo...these are laws that most Americans are unaware of. Secondly I wonder how many good old boys down south who are the heads of the police and National Guard units are going to cooperate...Hmmmmmmmm...I just do not think so. The boys and girls out West have obviously gotten fed up with these teams of Federal monkees attacking 6-12 people with 100 armed to the teeth, assault weapon carrying zombies...go sit in a truck stop and have a cup of coffee and just listen...these are not radicals...they are what I call the back-bone of America...hard working REGULAR folks who are getting FED up...

I think the great state of Virgina already sent a pretty strong answer to the District of Columbia...the Coward Erect and Sec. of State when they put down that scumbag that murdered a Virginian. If I am not mistaken, the great state of Texas did the same...UN, like I have said before...put it in front of UN-American...

perhaps this is training is for foreign cities.
And maybe Chicago is an exemplary training ground ( I have heard of Marines training there but have not found a url reference yet}
but then again...
http://www.mcwl.org/mcwl/uw/uw.htm

Erle ..
was my home town...

Maybe our first Kitco reunion will be on the Feds. And we'll get the best bunks at the labor camp! Go Cuervo Gold!

Wow Tolerant1 how much coffee have you had this morning?????

Combat Support Groupf From Compton, CA Confiscates Guns From Idaho Seperatists/Montana Freemen...HA!

Don't you forget it.

Quite frankly...I think the heat is going to get turned up by the hard right in this country and we have not heard from them yet...its gonna get hot in that White House kitchen and soon...gulp to YA! on this festive day...

A democratic Socialist believes in Democracy both in political and economic terms. The political side is obvious yet it is the economic side which makes the difference. By structuring a legal and commercial system which allows for a more even distribution of the fruits of labor no economic class becomes so powerful as to usurp the political side of democracy. This means strong labor laws and unions and reasonable restrictions on worldwide capital flow. Capital's ability to safely jump to cheaper labor countries is one of the reasons for the current economic problems. However, labor solidarity and most definitely social and political unrest in the countries where labor is now being exploited under very undemocratic conditions is a great positive for labor worldwide. From the Chiapas rebels to the students in Jakarta ya gotta luv it as Capital hates unrest even when it gets the labor cheap. GO UNREST SPREAD AND MULTIPLY! MY QUESTION FOR YOU What is a Democratic Capitalist or is it an oxymoron?

Economic Democracy?! Commie/Socialist you mean...

suggest that when a minimum of sixty million gun owners, and then multiply that by the wives and or husbands of those gun owners and then their kids, boys and girls,now we are up to roughly 100-120 million, plus, now throw in, allegiance to these United States, nationalized gun confiscation would not be so easy...no Sir...I don't buy it...not one bit...

Then of course you would have to convince every member of the armed forces and police, etc. that national gun confiscation is PART of the Constitution as newly written by the District of Columbia and the UN...

Steve...think again...gulp to ya!

It then appears to be quite simple.
It would be impossible to have Democratic Socialism without Democratic Capitalism.

I like you used to take that view as a Reagan for President fan in Orange County Cal. in 1984. Lose the rhetoric and look at the facts. Everything that is undemocratic or amounts to thievery arises from the capital class. Raise the SS age and screw the the workers. Bailout bad investments in Asia and Mexico. It is Capital which is GOVT DEPENDENT and it is time they take personal responsibility. The workers make the products and cause the system to work why should the FEW rich benefit so immensely while workers are downsized and WAll St and the ( false ) Govt figures ring a happy refrain. I'll say it again GO UNREST SPREAD AND MULTIPLY!

Gold?
Silver?
Nikkei?
DOW?

Instead of Socialism maybe I should say market socialism as I believe private ownership and incentive have to exist to some extent.

Ooohhh! you're simply right! ( NOT! ) What's wrong with this picture? The losers in your "Economic Democracy" represent unsatisfied ( ie pent-up ) Demand. This is what Black Markets are made of. Haven't you learned yet? Black markets are simply a way to finance "Off-Budget" Operations by the Friends of Big Brother! Russia has the meanest Mob in history. Your Economic Democracy is a MIRAGE! Individuals WILL TRADE!

impossibility to say because we know not what deals have been struck over the weekend, who lied to whom, who is going to screw whom and so on...sorry, gulp to ya!

was the bit about the Nat'l Guard State Partnership program

and military exchanges. There are far reaching implications

suggesting our boys aren't going to have to do the dirty work

here at home. They'll be counting on the boys from other countries.

I hope you are wrong Tolerant1. I think it is best for our country if the President goes but the ballot box is the way to do it. The great thing about our country is the ballot. We can by our vote change our government. If the government is changed by revolution, we will all lose, we will get a government that is very repressive. Most of the people in our country do not vote but they do complain about the government. We get the government we deserve and since Bill clinton, love him or hate him is our President we should not complain so much but work, aid and support a candidate who we think will do a better job. However, IMOVHO I think he will not complete his term in office. When Judge Starr gives his report to Congress I think the facts will overwhelm President Clinton. Their may even be indictments from Judge Starr's committee.
Gentlemen, this is a great country we live in. Lets do more to support our elected officials, the office of President and VOTE in all elections. Thank you ( getting down off of my soapbox ) .

...Monte Alban! ...coupla more gulps and I'll be ready to take a stab at the Nikkei open... up? down?

My feeling is G7 meeting expectations were high, yet all that's come from it is more of the same promises... no specifics, no timeline. Right now my gut says the Nikkei opens down.

-EJ

Bingo, Namaste' If foreign soldiers hit American soil this country will go up in flames...I pray it never happens, the individuals that developed that scenario would have to be totally insane...

Nikkei futures were trading UP +300 at close, but Rubin snuck his quip in there about no specific outcome this weekend before it could tick down into close.

I think down then close up. Ditto on YEN.


HB

M-aire versus M-are is a small typo. But you've begged the question.
Don't you think that all of us are entitled to the best legal care that money can buy. so the only way to make it fair is for everyone to have access to attorney time for whatever reason we wish at a fee to be set by government regulation. I think $3.00 per brief office visit is a reasonable fee don't you? And payment should be in legal tender not gold! IMHO

The attorneys should be required to take cases on assignment and should not be allowed to show preferential treatment for private pay clients. They should have to fill out all the forms themselves on their own time to obtain Legicare reimbursement and should have strict time limitations as to how long before cases are settled. I think that a complicated murder case could be allowed up to 3 weeks but they should be able to turn over 5 simple lawsuits per hour. IMHO

Cases should be settled as much as possibile in the office and cases needing court time would have to get prior approval from the Legicare office before a judge would accept them. The juries should be all certified professionals and belong to the jurists union, but to save money there would only be 4 jurors per case. IMHO

Now politician-lawyers would fall under a different system entirely. Capitation is the only way to go for them, say $1.00 per year per constituant, but constituants should be allowed to sue them ad lib, with all litigation costs paid for by Legicare. but constituants should be assigned a politician rather than having the right to vote on them. IMHO ( 8-^] )

offered no new commitments at G7 meeting. Expects yen and Japanese market to tumble together. ( BTW, scroll down to the last article. Greece/Turk war coming up?

http://www.Bloomberg.com/bbn/index.html

I was born there in 29 and left in 60. When were you there. It's not quite the same as it used to be, but it's better than most.

However, the ( Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oh yeah, this is gonna hurt! ) President, ( OUCH ) has signed into law much that the overall population is unaware of. Many, MANY months ago I posted that I believed that voting and the courts were and are the way to go, dialogue...I believe I was in discussion with Mozel ( a gulp to ya where ever you are ) on this topic.

I am no radical, just a regular fellow...it is my contention however that much of what Americans believe in, well, its been totally subverted by this President ( OUCH ) . ( Bill, after this post I have to go back to calling what I normally call him...this is too painful )

On the other hand, as someone who reads a tremendous amount of this that and the other, if the Federal Government tries to commit the acts that it has written down on paper...my conclusion is that there will be bloodshed...I can assure you I will be the guy running into the streets screaming, HEY...HEY...are you all NUTS or WHAT!!! I will be armed with the two I came into this life with...everyone else will have enough iron to build an aircraft carrier...thats for sure...

http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/pubs/ifdp/1997/582/default.htm

Evidently you have to be over 50 to appreciate consciously how much meat has been carved out of American ideals. A statement of this new law is one thing and an immediate reaction to intrusion is another. You got it all the way. Ceers, Charlie

People, I honestly believe that Y2K problem is overvalued. Of course, problem exists. It does cost billions and billions. Of course, there will be some companies, that will not make it in time. They will go down. But global disaster - I dont buy it. I believe that human race is smart enough to fix the problem. Are computers more clever or more powerful, then we are? People have created software and chips with a bug, people will fix them. No doubt, some companies make a huge profits now on this sensational reports of mass media. Global disaster Worldwide depression Nukes firing by themselves in all directions
I am sure, that in two years from now we all will recall todays discussions about using field electricity generators to survive with a smile.
Delphi

I had to depart not long after my last post and missed a bunch of stuff.

chas: Wish I could help you with the sour mash, but I've never claimed any expertise in that realm. Are you saying the clear stuff in fruit jars is scarce? Or are you alluding to the bottled in bond? Either way, I find that hard to believe. Best moonshine I ever tasted was from Mississippi ( no offense ) , but it wasn't sour mash.

Bingo: Your 16:26 post is truly relevant and very good info. I made a copy. Thanks.

tolerant1: If it quacks like a duck, etc.; I have arrived at the same conclusion. The coward erect doesn't go far enough; should be traitor erect! Mein Gott, can't people SEE it? What is this creep doing in the oval office? He makes Jimmy Carter look llke a saint ( an incredeibly naive and unbelievely gullible saint ) . What will it take to wake people up? Does the T.E. have to declare China a friend and ally of the US? Maybe that's next.

IN THE BEGINNING...............

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Quickly God was faced with a class action suit for failure to file an
environmental impact statement. God was granted a temporary permit for
the project, but was stymied with the cease and desist order for the
earthly part.

Then God said, "Let there be light!"

Immediately the officials demanded to know how the light would be made.
Would there be strip mining? What about thermal pollution? God
explained that the light would come from a large ball of fire. God was
granted provisional permission to make light, assuming no smoke would
result from the ball of fire, and that he would obtain a building permit;
and to conserve energy, would have the light out half the time.

God agreed and offered to call the light "Day" and the darkness "Night."

The officials replied that they were not interested in semantics.

God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plant yielding seed, and
fruit trees bearing fruit."

The EPA agreed, so long as only native seed was used.

Then God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures,
and let birds fly above the earth."

The officials pointed out that this would require approval from the
Department of Game coordinated with the Heavenly Wild Life Federation and
the Audubongelic Society.

Everything was OK till God said the project would be completed in six
days.

The officials said it would take at least two hundred days to review the
applications and the impact report. After that there would be a public
hearing. Then there would be ten to twelve months before..............

At this point God created Hell.

Globex shows S&P off 230 and Yen down 132, yes, 132!
http://www.cme.com/cgi-bin/gflash.cgi

This is distinctly different than sugar head. Wet down the grain ( limbercob corn ) and when it sprouts a little you dry it and grind it and use it for starter in the bbl of grain and water ( corn ) . When it reaches JUST the right fermentation, you put it in the still and run it off. This takes real experience. You get "sour" mash because there's no sugar involved. This product is so far superior to any other corn product that you can't believe it till you taste it- and drink a quart while duck hunting. No regrets.

Lawyers are dependent on the free enterprise system. Are you suggesting a system where Lawyers could commit billing fraud against the taxpaying workers just like hospitals and Doctors in Medicaire and medicaide do now. If we have an HMO system where doctors cant be sued for their negligence ( as we do now ) then limit their pay just like in Europe. Ya cant have it both ways lets limit the pay for greedy Doctors and Insurance companyies if the law wont let lawyers protect the working and premium paying public/working people.

was as high as 139/$ in premarket Tokyo trading. Backing down to where the futures closed on Friday right after Rubin's comments...136.70.

So essentially unchanged from Friday's NY trade.


HB

By far the BEST way to support The Constitution, The Office of The President AND our country is to call for the impeachment of W.J.C. by the US Senate AND his conviction by the US House. Any question as to his culpability would be an insult.

after nuetral political weekend, only can mean SOMEBODY is stepping on the necks of the YEN bears.


HB

You have answered my question and I am glad you have backed up your observations well. I do understand the problem I believe and you are to be thanked for your even handed efforts. I like to call myself by the old term, a Conservationist, so I do not come down 100% with the Mining Companies managing of this problem by any means. I do believe, however, that many environmentalists have a more broad agenda than just conservation i.e. a socialist agenda. Compromise seems to have been taken out of the dictionary. I always appreciate you astute posts.

http://www.southam.com:80/edmontonjournal/cgi/newsnow.pl?nkey=ej

&file=/cpfs/world/980619/w061921.html

( Cut and paste )

Top Russian General for International Cooperation says there could be a new cold war brewing if NATO acts without UN approval, ) which it will never get as Russia can veto. ) Rubin says it's not serious. Strange words in a diplomatic war. The Russian Military envoy to NATO, who was recalled to Moscow last week, will be staying there for "consultation" indefinately.

What is Robby Rubin doing dealing with NATO anyway? He's Treasury, isn't he? After he caused a major international incident with Mexico so recently? If anyone can help me to understand, I'll appreciate it.

The fighting in Kosovo is now raging in a virtual state of war. The escape route for tens of thousands of ethnic Albanians has been cut off at the border.

For the past few weeks, the Euro bourses have been moving more on the news out of Russia or Kosovo than Asia, in their daily swings. You can practically gauge their performance from the morning BBC report. And they're getting nervous.

Is it just me, or is something important going on here?

You got me hooked already. There IS sugar, though; it's in the corn itself, otherwise there'd be no fermentation. But you knew that. I used to make beer ( the RIGHT way ) . Infinately better than store bought.

Squirrel-- I hear tuna can have lots of mercury content. Health food specialists warn about eating it too often. Peter rabbit might pay you a visit? I spoke out ( testimony ) in public about clear cutting here in SE Alaska and stirred up some animosity by corporation loggers. I contracted to cutem down for years ( pre-commercial thinning ) and planted them too.
Youre abasolutly right on the enviroment vs user issue.

Argent-- The small Yanmar is good and not so very expensive, not cheap either. The smaller the better, 500 watts in gas is OK. Wind-power?

Prometheus-- I am the son of DESIRE........I hope.

ROR ( American Children ) @15:52: Why bother worrying about the little nipper's diet while his or her head is being filled with truly toxic crap? ....... If the little ankle biters were taught to think rationally, they would, in time, be free to make wise choices and thereby break free of the poor choices made by their Social Democrat forebears. Yes?

Unfortunately, that's not a kinder, gentler option. Ofttimes it results in a truly staggering unsocial thought process. Yes?

Nontheless, I continue to marvel at your persistence.

that appeared in today's Boston Globe? Is the deputy defense secretary an alarmist when he says, "This is going to have implications in this world... that we can't even comprehend"?

I don't think we'll look back on the current preparations with amusement. On the contrary, the more first hand evidence I experience, the more I am convinced that many will regret having not made better preparations and will look back on some of the popular preparation suggestions made now as naive and ludicrous, i.e., CIA technical officer Sherry Burns' suggestion to her staff that they "pay their bills early in December 1999 to avoid possible processing problems, keep cash on hand in case automatic teller machines failed and lay in extra blankets in case of a blackout on a cold New Year's Eve night."

I spite of the silliness of this suggestion ( as if blankets are going to get you water after the pipes have frozen in your condo ) Sherry does stick her neck out here, considering her position -- she suggests that the power might go out and that you may not be able to get cash. Sherry reports to a guy named John Dahms, the CIO of the CIA. I have never met John or Sherry, although I have spoken with John on the phone and spent a fair amount of time with one of his other direct reports. He does not strike me as the alarmist type and is not the kind of manager to allow alarmists to work for him or make alarmist statements to reporters.
-EJ

John Disney: Yes. I was aware of your birthplace. From a post long ago and far away.

BTW and for the record. "Erle" is the other guy. Notably better looking and reportedly more successful.

I am, unfortunately, just "Earl". One "E". One "L" ....... and no "Y". ...... I have never been early for anything. .............. Except the bear market in gold.

Just loved your Merle Haggard tune.
The fishermen were out on strike for higher off season welfare payments.
They were late getting there fish head stew.

You obviously come from a strand that wants to believe we live in a truly democratic society. Maybe you benefit or perceive you benefit from the wealth garnered by the dominant corporate class vis a vis workers and families worldwide. I cant argue with you all I can say is WAKE UP! YOU support hegemony and not true Democracy. You are obviously intellegent, know the ENEMY by what IT does to your country!!

Use of expression "gulp" doesn't have meaning in some parts of the English speaking world that you are applying to it here. ( e.g. "On his last night ashore before going to sea, sailor Dave got an execellent goodbye gulp from his fiance" ) . Just thought you'd like to know that your postings are cracking me up, for reasons that have nothing to do with your original intent.

Squirrel: For whatever it may be worth; I agree with your view on resource corporations. ...... Corporations hell, the little guy too.

They are as rapacious as the political class and Democratic Socialists.

Timber harvesters, along with the power generating dams, in the Pacific region have unhinged a massive resource base. To the total detriment of whole communities that had nothing to do with timber.

The total cost of harvesting a resource is never calculated in absolute terms. It always seems to be one of: "Let me get mine. And someone else can carry the can back". Yes?

For whoever it was that brought up the spotted owl; I can only say that people depend on more resources than just timber. ....... Unfortunately, it is mostly an issue of: Whose gang is larger. Your's or mine????

In accordance with EPA rules, I should have added-"no suger added"! If we ever get this stainless still made, I'll save you a quart. It's really the best if you put it in a charred oak barrel for a couple of months. It comes out pee yellow and so smooth you need the utmost discretion imbibing or you can't hit your but with either hand. ( about 105 proof ) but really enjoyable. Here's to you, Charlie

with all this talk of gulping. Thanks for pointing this out. Now we can all enjoy the unintentional fun, too.
-EJ

Work for public control and influence and against private and anti-family and anti-union influence to achieve true democracy. If we work hard we can frustrate capital through regulation and taxation of capital and wealth which along with a good social safety net which evens the playing field between workers and capital. The more social programs and international trade sanctions the better. Go FREEDOM death to Slavery!

ROR: In whole of my adult life, I have never had any illusions about the issue of democracy. So called. More, I have no hope that democracy will ever result in anything but tyranny. A form of tyranny that allows the zoo to be run from the monkey cage.

You seem to harbor the grand illusion that, welling deep in the individual American soul, lies the answer to all the wretched problems that face mankind in general and Americans in particular. And all that is needed, is a stronger form of democracy. Nonsense. In every face and particular.

The average American is incapable of understanding that some problems are insoluble in the context of a free society. Infant mortality is just one of them.

The average American is easily driven by the latest, and often, most bizzare devil theories. He is incapable of distinguishing between what is possible and what is prudent. The Kennedy's are the most obvious example of such. That would, of course include the Kennedy wannabes as well. Such as your Mr. Gephart.

In short, we are cabable of doing many things. But, in most cases we should practice restraint. Just because we can intervene in the lives of citizens, does not mean that we should. ...... A lesson yet to be learned. ...... In the end, if we are truly free; we are free to go to hell in a manner of our own choosing.

Go to http://www.futuresource.com/reg/upgrade_fs.shtml for ( free until June 30th ) FWN real-time news, WeatherSource maps, Time & Sales, delayed futures quotes, intraday options, expanded charts & studies, etc. These features will only be available to PowerPack paid subscribers after June 30th. To find out all the skivy on the Internet PowerPack, go to http://www.futuresource.com/promo/about_sdip.shtml.

hb

and this ain't the first time someone has been getting a large chuckle at my expense...anyway, since we is in the US...a Giant GULP to ya of Tequila...hope you are having a great day...I am now sitting in front of the computer...clown nose on...

Your last ( 19:41 ) posting was well stated. The greatest weakness of democracy is that the misconceptions of the majority become law. Case in point is more than one U.S. state legistlature attempting to discipline intransigent mathematicians ( who insist that pi is some obscure number with an endless series of digits when life would be a lot easier, especially for math challenged politicians, if it were some regular number ) , by passing laws making pi equal to 3.0 for some other silly number. This is history!

All the votes in the world don't make a wrong-headed idea right. The American people have been terribly irresponsible with the power the vote puts into their hands. The consequences of this dereliction of duty are upon us all.

-- Slingin it.

Which will overtake the ( Chainsaw Dunlap ) USA as Europe and Japan properly guarantee social benefits and employment. Most of the countries rate above the "part time" US employment rate and living stds and are Democratic Socialist. Incompetence is not grounds for dismissal. Yet the excellent European education system makes the CAPITALIST dum down people in the US system look good. GO Europe Shame ON the US. DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM WORKS US Capitalism is an eroding self evident failure. When it soon fails we can REALLY REFORM in a people friendly sort of way.

George Orwell would have recognized your style. So in your world, "freedom" is obtained "through regulation and taxation"...

Care to explain next how love is really hate?

Here you go. Yen-USD exchange rate -

http://quote.yahoo.com/m5?t=JPY&s=USD&a=1

ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Overnight..comex...gold down $3.00 at 297.80

So you're saying that the poor and working classes shouldn't have full access to legal care on the same basis as the rich? How are you to be fair to them unless you get firm control over the rich lawyers and prevent them from taking advantage of their overwhelmingly greater knowledge of the legal system? Is it fair that some rich coalition can hire lawyers for thousands of dollars an hour but the little people wthey fight against can only pay a few bucks? Unless they want to pay 60% contingency fees?

Japan...Nikkei 225...^N225...8:07PM...15246.25...-21.73...-0.14%
-EJ

Is advertising for an investment co. who is saying to buy gold. They claim that gold is below cost of production and when it reaches that point you will make an easy 13%. I think they quote somebody named Lynch. Does that make sense? It was on a station called " The BORDER" out of
NY State and aimed at the St.Lawrence River. My THOUGHT was that if this is even an inkling in the minds of investors that their money is threatened in the markets ( The Ad states this ) then their market research must have shown this. The seed is being planted. The set-up is forthcoming. Maybe.

mz hillary is in our state ( NM ) campaigning for a pretty boy democrap who has to check with his father's office before making a reply to a substantive question. uh-huh, gotta love politics in the late millenium. ( special election to fill seat of late, lamented Steve Schiff. )

I wished that you were right ,there was an early post re Russia's nuclear plans for Y2K which said they will wait. True they have more problems than they can handle now ,however my mind is returned to Chernobyl they were not prompt in telling the world and that was just one reactor ~ the others were not closed down.as I understand it The former USSR is far more reliant on nuclear energy than The USA ( 20% )
.Fair enough I know next to nothing about the nuclear industty ( however they do lie about most things ) we are led to believe manual over rides etc will handle things in power cuts that may be ok in the USA but ( some time back and idiot bureaucrat in a power station threatened to cut off power to NUKE SUBS sitting in Murmansk what happens if they have say 6 N Plants verging on melt down no limited comminication &power ~ the rest of the world wrapped up in its own problems I think the we will do nothing is in the hope that the west will help out ?

The above excludes thoughts on Weapons systems ( who is going to say the will not work even if they don't ) add Bureacracy booze celebrations at least the start ( food permitting ) Financial bubbles bursting ( don't forget China even with BC to pass on the necessary.

The longer the public are kept in the dark the bigger the panick ( I think ) public dissorder would eventually be quelled but Clouds of 1st class radiation .......Like is sure going to be tough for life/pension sales people

Go Gold

cpo

Slingshot, the story about pi=3.0 is an urban legend. In point of fact it was perpetrated deliberately as a 'joke' by a television talk show host to lampoon conservative ideologues.

ROR: "Work for public control and influence and against private and anti-family and anti-union influence to achieve true democracy."

I would submit to you that the above is antithetical to and mutually exclusive with any reasonable concept of individual liberty. If palpable and effective restrictions on individual freedom and liberty are a part of your philosophical paradigm, please so state. ...... Or rethink the above.

While pushing her in her new swing this afternoon, I discussed the very concept implied in your first 6 words above. And though she is only a little over one year old, she was able to discern, immediately, the inherent contradiction of what you are saying. ............. She may still "speak in tongues" but she still recognizes bullshit when she sees it.

With such a sound grasp of the real and tangible, I will restrain myself from, dissuading her of her grasp of things. Nor will I allow her head to be filled with your sound counsel.

ROR: Clarification: That was my granddaughter, being pushed in the swing. Thoughts are often faster than fingers.

I've been reading a lot here tonite about how ignorant and undiscerning Americans are and how democracy works. First off, this country was designed as a republic and it is not a democracy. As far as the "average" American goes- you can't beat the population of the Southern Appalachians. These are the people that beat the British a couple of times. They spent time in a couple of World Wars- have you ever heard of Sgt York? I have traded, been put up at nite, had some of the best meals I ever had and drank some of the best liquor you could ever find. I can guarantee that most of them were and some today illiterate. But i guarantee that there is not one that can't make change for a ten dollar bill. If you think this is bullshit, you follow my footsteps.

Hey, Mr. Clown Nose, what do you think of the "Inn at the Harbor"
for our leetle gathering? namast'e

If you destroy a fee market,you create a black market
( Winston Churchill



If you destoy a free market,you create a black market.
( Winston Churchill )
For some reason I prefer his opinion to yours.

Argent: A few years ago some insane friends of mine decided to have a tequila tasting. Everyone had to bring a bottle and about ten people showed up. In a blind tasting, we drank straight shots, rating the tequilas as the night progressed. What really surprised me is that everyone showed up with a different tequila. On the basis of http://www.io.com:80/~elvis/hunter.html I showed up with a bottle of Sauza Hornitos. It won hands down.

One guy even showed up with a $60 bottle of Cuervo Gold Anejo Primo Especialto Mucho Gusto Besto . . . hmmmm, actually I forget what it was called . . . but it *was* a Cuervo Gold something. I only rated it a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10 in the blind tasting ( but when I found out how much it cost, I drank a more of it and liked it a lot more, too : ) ) .

Inhibit the rich for the benefit of the rest. I am for REAL democracy not one based simply on financial wealth which is no Democracy at all. GO CRASH!

Your post appear s to be contradictory Public control = bureaucrats & PC No thinking permitted
The Dictionary defines democracy as Government by the people or their elected representatives In practice there is a limited choice of representatives who when in powerv are manipulated by powerfull groups/lobbyists ( Warren Buffett condems this ) .

Democracy is a figment of peoples manipulated perception ....how does one power oneself by giving Unions and other bodies power ,not in theory but in practice......?

cpo

Argent, Namaste' I agree with you 100%...

ARE FREEDOM for those who are in a lower bargaininhg position versus those who are taxed and regulated and who without same would RAPE the former. TAX AND REGULATION THE GREAT EVENER. Go Democracy TAX and REGULATE your HEART OUT MOTHER LIBERTY EVEN WHEN THE ELITE COMPLAIN!

Bingo 16:07 Whew!! At your insistence, I read the whole referenced URL. Let me sum it up in two words; pure crap. The defect the author has fallen into is very common. He has developed an hypothesis and then warped and crammed everything he can find to seem to fit that hypothesis. I will not take the time to refute every silly conclusion and innuendo in the document but I will comment on things I am most familiar with.

All federal agencies are constantly looking for new missions to justify their existence and gain funding. They explore all sorts of possibilities. To say that the exploration of a possibility will necessarily lead to action is pure fantasy. When agencies like the National Guard ( NG ) talk about working together, that is all they mean. There is nothing inherently sinister about it. When they talk about helping FEMA, they are talking about disasters associated with things like earthquake, hurricanes etc.

To get very specific, I know MG Baratz who was quoted in the article. He is a fine and patriotic American. He is not involved in any sort of NWO or Clintonista cabal.

On the subject of Russians and NATO troops. We visit them and they visit us. There is nothing sinister about that. These are exchange visits among the senior officers and NCOs and they are simply to increase understanding and reduce tensions that could lead to war. There is no plan to bring NATO or Russian troops here in mass to do any official or governmental action in America.

Nothing in your referenced URL changes anything I said earlier. Hell will freeze over before you see NATO or Russian troops doing anything in America but visiting in very small ( less than 100 at a time ) numbers as guests.

The NG is not in a cabal with FEMA. The Active Components of the Army do not respect FEMA and none of that is going to be a problem. Spend your time worrying about getting your supplies of Au, Ag, Pb, Fe, food, fuel and tools up to speed.

With regard to Waco and Ruby Ridge. Those were pathetic incidents of the entire federal civilian bureaucracy taking on harmless individuals. Sorry as those incidents were, they illustrate clearly the utter incompetence of that bureaucracy to handle any sort of mass problem.

George - damn if you ain't right about mercury in tuna.
http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/reports/mercury/tables.html
Reckon I better split each can among a few servings ( for several people or two days - no problem in winter with subzero refrigeration}. A little animal protein can go a long way. 2 to 3 ounces a day would be a luxury compared to what others in the world get.
Maybe I can trade cans of tuna for other essentials.

Goldbug23 - I too was steeped in "Conservation". It was a given for my dad and his friends in the farm and forest country that was my backyard. My youth included membership in the local 4H club
http://www.4h-usa.org/4h/4h_history.htm
and the Boy Scouts which included hunting, fishing, canoeing, camping and conservation work.
http://www.bsa.scouting.org/

I too take issue with idealistic environmentalists who don't realize from where their lumber, bread, milk, steel, electricity and oil come from. During a depression their environmental ideals will take a back seat to survival.
http://www.capitalism.net/GRTOXIC.HTM

i salute you and yours.

I got that from a book on the history of science that is out on loan at the moment, so I can't quote directly. I recall that it named three different occassions that state legistlatures had pulled the pi nonsense. The veracity of my anecdote is not important, and if I have misled the Kitco public, I apologize. The point was that voting does not necessarily produce the right answer, it just produces the popular answer. Wisdom is not cumulative.

Democracy doesn't guarantee good government, it just gets you popular government. It frequently produces spectacular disasters. The secret to America for the first 150 years wasn't democracy, it was limited government. No matter how many votes you get to justify the tyranny, the power of government is still the power of the gun. ROR: Democratic Socialism is a "security for freedom" scam that the founding fathers foresaw 200 years ago. If I remember the quote correctly, Ben Franklin said that "those who would trade their liberty for security deserve neither their liberty nor their security". The biggest murderers of the time were the Socialists and Communists of the French Revolution. Sorry, but I just don't buy it. I've read too much history.

The most galling aspect of this is that the American people have fallen for it, and Democratic Socialism may very well be our destiny. And the security we surrender our freedom for is security that the pols can't really deliver. We will trade our freedom for an illusion of security. Oh my people!

... off the politics

Japan is probably going down. An excellent example of corporate welfare in action. The only reason they're in so much trouble is that the government tried to defend a banking industry that manifestly didn't deserve it. If they allow Darwin to do his thing on their banks, they can start putting their economy back together. Until then, all the garbage defending the banks is just going to run the Yen down and slam ( domestic ) investor confidence to the point where one of Japan's greatest assets, some 10 trillion US$ worth of individual savings ( if I've got the number right, I'm too lazy to go look it up and am sure one of the extroverts on this site will correct me if needed ) , will have largely fled the country looking for a friendly place to roost.

-- still slingin it

Gold Watch
Veneroso Associates
June 22,1998 Issue 06.05
John Brimelow William J. Murphy III Frank Veneroso


The Gold Market
 Short Covering

The Official Sector
1 ) We have received two more reports of a central bank buyer.
2 ) Last week Cheryl Strauss Einhorn said in Barrons:

The immediate future is not brighter. No one knows what will happen to, and who has control over, the remaining 12,000 tonnes of gold---roughly equal to five years' mine production---held by the 11 member participants in European economic and monetary union that may be excluded from the ECB's reserves.

Jean Claude Trichet, the head of the Bank of France and designated successor to ECB head Wim Duisenberg, has made the following comments:

PARIS, June 18 ( Reuters ) - The planned transfer of gold reserves to the European Central Bank represents an important signal on the need for central banks to hold gold, the Bank of France said in its annual report released on Thursday. It said that the main holders of gold had not changed their view on the need for gold to make up a part of the central bank reserves as a guarantee in the international financial system. "Neither the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the German Bundesbank, not the Bank of Italy, nor of course the Bank of France pan to sell the precious metal," it said.

3 ) Regarding IMF gold sales, the following statements have been made:

WASHINGTON, June 15 ( Reuters ) - Ideas floated in the past have included selling some of the IMF gold reserves, although the sources said this idea had not been raised recently. "I do not think gold sales are an easy way out, rather they could send the wrong signals to the markets and the general public, signaling that the fund is in effect selling the family silver," a second monetary source said. The first source put it more bluntly. "We could not get a consensus for gold sales at this stage." He said. IMF gold reserves total 103.4 million fine ounces.

Last year the IMF did not bring up the issue of gold sales. We believe that France has joined Germany in opposing such sales. France and Germany can effectively block any such sales.

The Deflation Trade in Gold
Hedge funds are very short gold owing to a belief that the Asian crisis will deepen and throw the world into deflation. We noted last week that, barring a bursting of the US stock market bubble, the outlook for the G-7 economies was fairly positive. China is poised to grow. The odds are that South East Asia should stabilize. Therefore, the odds do not favor global deflation. If European gold sales and South East Asian liquidations abate---which we believe is happening---the gold price will rise. We stated that, if deflation expectations are not fulfilled, the gold price will rise sharply on a covering of the deflation trade in gold.
Every one has feared that further yen depreciation might force China to devalue and deepen the Asian crisis. As expected ( see our recent notes on the yen ) , threats of devaluation from China prior to Clinton's visit brought foreign policy considerations to bear on Treasury policy toward the yen. More and more signs of an erosion in US competitiveness, US trade, and US corporate profit margins arising out of the devaluation of the Asian currencies and the decline in their economies also brought US commercial considerations to bear on US Treasury policy toward the yen. This has caused Secretary Rubin to change his policy and intervene on behalf of the yen.
The marketplace believes that such intervention will not work because the fundamentals have not changed. The markets regard a weak Japanese economy, alleged Japanese policy paralysis, Japanese/US interest rate differentials, and the crisis in the south East Asian economies as the only fundamentals that are relevant to the yen/dollar exchange rate. In fact, Japan and Asia have a massive competitive advantage relative to the US. They are earning huge and growing current account surpluses. The US is suffering a huge and worsening current account deficit. Asia is the locus of the largest forex reserves in the world. Japan is the largest creditor nation in the world. These too are fundamentals that are relevant to the yen/dollar exchange rate. It is our guess that intervention will succeed in stabilizing the yen because of these recently ignored fundamentals.
All of the major powers now want stabilization and reflation in Asia. US commercial interests that are losing competitiveness and profits want a lower dollar and global reflation, especially in Asia. The US stock market, faced with growing earnings disappointments, wants the same. Europe, where domestic demand is growing nicely but trade is eroding with Asia, wants reflation in Asia. Japan wants reflation. Its policy makers are not as indecisive as the markets and media claim: there is already a large front loaded fiscal stimulus program underway; the monetary base in growing very rapidly and the BOJ is considering yet more rapid expansion; and substantial ( $100 billion plus ) funds have been earmarked for a second half bank bailout. China's move to claim leadership in Asia will provoke Japanese foreign policy as well as US foreign policy to respond to South East Asia's cries for currency stability and regional reflation.
The political forces at work now all want currency stability and reflation in Asia. The only players with an interest in deflation are hedge funds. Actions are now being taken to restore stability in Asia. Short of a bursting of the US stock market bubble, the G-7 economies and China are already set up to grow in the coming quarters. That is most of the global economy. Last week we said that the odds favored that the deflation trade will be frustrated and the funds would eventually back track on their current positions, including their short side deflation theme trade in gold. The rise in the gold price this past week was probably due mostly to such short covering. Open interest data suggests that the funds remain short. Speculators do not believe in the current changes in trend: despite a 10 point move in the yen, the bullish consensus was only 15% Friday morning. It is our guess that the funds still believe the yen will fall fast and far and that Asia will drag the world into global deflation.

EJ, I recognize that problem exits, I wrote that. Regarding article in Boston Globe ( someone posted a link, I have read it ) . It is not 100% true. According to this article by information of Pentagon only 4 counties are working now on Y2K problem in military sphere. Thats not true. I saw other article in our local Dutch press, that gave figures for all ministries of Netherlands - how many systems may be affected, how many are fixed, current budget, additional money needed, etc. Defense was indeed in bad situation and claimed for much more money they need. You know the story. So, there are more then 4 countries where defense work on Y2K problem, right? I believe that in other European countries situation is the same. Well, military people usually do not disobey orders. Now they have an order to fix the problem. I believe that they will succeed.
The man from CIA You spoke is probably a fine specialist and tells the truth about importance of the problem and all ins and outs about it. We all do it this way when the subject is our job or main sphere of interest.
Many years ago - more then 25 - I used to write programs myself, including most "Y2K trouble" language - Cobol. I think I know what I am tacking about.
I may tell You my own simple experience with Y2K. I have several credit cards. A few months ago Visa replaced expired one with a new card with expiration date in Jan 2002. From this moment I use it most - just from curiosity - to see if some system fail. I made few hundred transactions - in shops, restaurants, gas stations, etc. There was no failure till now. That means in practice, that all reading devices, local software in a shop and bank of this shop could handle this date. Interesting, isnt it?

I missed your previous post tell me does tollerance come into your vocabulary Socialism or what ever name you give that cancer is the best way to waste resources ( and create artificial employment ) In fairness the extreems of capatilism have a lot of problems.IMHO if there was more tollerance in the world ( ie not ramming missguided beleifs down others throats ) but without wishing to appear negative would be wishfull thinking

The older you get the less faith you have in politicians whatever they try to preach and from whatever party you end up picking what you perceive to be the lesser of the 2 evil's .........but perhaps you percetion of "true democracy" is a fantasy

cpo

Might Gold be a means to make MONEY in the capitalist tradition?
Could you please explain the connection between trading in Gold and Democratic Socialism? Please bear with my ignorance of such matters.

I only hope your predictions about Democratic Socialism come true so we have true FREEDOM for the American People. Living stds are declining because of the so-called liberaterianism mentality of the elite which you support. The anti-working class mentality of the educated elite is amazing and abhorent. True liberty occurs when the workers realize they are the screwees. This is starting to happen. Go GM Strikers!

The Gold Market  Short Covering

The Official Sector
1 ) We have received two more reports of a central bank buyer.
2 ) Last week Cheryl Strauss Einhorn said in Barrons:

The immediate future is not brighter. No one knows what will happen to, and who has control over, the remaining 12,000 tonnes of gold---roughly equal to five years' mine production---held by the 11 member participants in European economic and monetary union that may be excluded from the ECB's reserves.

Jean Claude Trichet, the head of the Bank of France and designated successor to ECB head Wim Duisenberg, has made the following comments:

PARIS, June 18 ( Reuters ) - The planned transfer of gold reserves to the European Central Bank represents an important signal on the need for central banks to hold gold, the Bank of France said in its annual report released on Thursday. It said that the main holders of gold had not changed their view on the need for gold to make up a part of the central bank reserves as a guarantee in the international financial system. "Neither the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the German Bundesbank, not the Bank of Italy, nor of course the Bank of France pan to sell the precious metal," it said.

3 ) Regarding IMF gold sales, the following statements have been made:

WASHINGTON, June 15 ( Reuters ) - Ideas floated in the past have included selling some of the IMF gold reserves, although the sources said this idea had not been raised recently. "I do not think gold sales are an easy way out, rather they could send the wrong signals to the markets and the general public, signaling that the fund is in effect selling the family silver," a second monetary source said. The first source put it more bluntly. "We could not get a consensus for gold sales at this stage." He said. IMF gold reserves total 103.4 million fine ounces.

Last year the IMF did not bring up the issue of gold sales. We believe that France has joined Germany in opposing such sales. France and Germany can effectively block any such sales.

The Deflation Trade in Gold
Hedge funds are very short gold owing to a belief that the Asian crisis will deepen and throw the world into deflation. We noted last week that, barring a bursting of the US stock market bubble, the outlook for the G-7 economies was fairly positive. China is poised to grow. The odds are that South East Asia should stabilize. Therefore, the odds do not favor global deflation. If European gold sales and South East Asian liquidations abate---which we believe is happening---the gold price will rise. We stated that, if deflation expectations are not fulfilled, the gold price will rise sharply on a covering of the deflation trade in gold.
Every one has feared that further yen depreciation might force China to devalue and deepen the Asian crisis. As expected ( see our recent notes on the yen ) , threats of devaluation from China prior to Clinton's visit brought foreign policy considerations to bear on Treasury policy toward the yen. More and more signs of an erosion in US competitiveness, US trade, and US corporate profit margins arising out of the devaluation of the Asian currencies and the decline in their economies also brought US commercial considerations to bear on US Treasury policy toward the yen. This has caused Secretary Rubin to change his policy and intervene on behalf of the yen.
The marketplace believes that such intervention will not work because the fundamentals have not changed. The markets regard a weak Japanese economy, alleged Japanese policy paralysis, Japanese/US interest rate differentials, and the crisis in the south East Asian economies as the only fundamentals that are relevant to the yen/dollar exchange rate. In fact, Japan and Asia have a massive competitive advantage relative to the US. They are earning huge and growing current account surpluses. The US is suffering a huge and worsening current account deficit. Asia is the locus of the largest forex reserves in the world. Japan is the largest creditor nation in the world. These too are fundamentals that are relevant to the yen/dollar exchange rate. It is our guess that intervention will succeed in stabilizing the yen because of these recently ignored fundamentals.
All of the major powers now want stabilization and reflation in Asia. US commercial interests that are losing competitiveness and profits want a lower dollar and global reflation, especially in Asia. The US stock market, faced with growing earnings disappointments, wants the same. Europe, where domestic demand is growing nicely but trade is eroding with Asia, wants reflation in Asia. Japan wants reflation. Its policy makers are not as indecisive as the markets and media claim: there is already a large front loaded fiscal stimulus program underway; the monetary base in growing very rapidly and the BOJ is considering yet more rapid expansion; and substantial ( $100 billion plus ) funds have been earmarked for a second half bank bailout. China's move to claim leadership in Asia will provoke Japanese foreign policy as well as US foreign policy to respond to South East Asia's cries for currency stability and regional reflation.
The political forces at work now all want currency stability and reflation in Asia. The only players with an interest in deflation are hedge funds. Actions are now being taken to restore stability in Asia. Short of a bursting of the US stock market bubble, the G-7 economies and China are already set up to grow in the coming quarters. That is most of the global economy. Last week we said that the odds favored that the deflation trade will be frustrated and the funds would eventually back track on their current positions, including their short side deflation theme trade in gold. The rise in the gold price this past week was probably due mostly to such short covering. Open interest data suggests that the funds remain short. Speculators do not believe in the current changes in trend: despite a 10 point move in the yen, the bullish consensus was only 15% Friday morning. It is our guess that the funds still believe the yen will fall fast and far and that Asia will drag the world into global deflation.

You have to give ROR points for bravery. It's when you get mad that wrecks the discussion. I kind of lean to the social responsibility side.But I also know that without profit motive nothing gets done. I also know bureaucrats waste money. They spend so much just trying to make a decision. But also if you left the world to the rich elite to make all the decisions without regulation things would get worse. Diversity makes the world balance. Wouldn't the would be boring if we all were like Newt Gingrich or Pat Buchanan. Wouldn't Father's Day be confusing if we were all Bill Clinton? The definition of confusion is the White House on Father's Day.

It is comforting to see credit card readers working with year 2000 dates, but I cannot draw the conclusion that everything's going to be ok based on this. It means that Visa has after seven years of hard work with banks and merchants managed to get their most mission-critical applications working. That's good news. The bad news is that it takes seven or more years to fix a complex system of networked computers and devices and quite a few organizations will not make it in time because they started too late.
-EJ

As I thought Tolerance is not one of your strong points what Salesman sold you your ideals if GM motors stay out then others will sell cars and maybe GM will not open again ( why waste 1/2 billion on Y2K giveit to the share holder s and shut down........... )

Tut you must be very young if you believe in such ideals lighten up have a glass or 2 of whiskey not too much though you may get aggressive...

cpo

downunder_A, Namaste' a Giant GULP of TEQUILA!!! ( slingshot I am still chuckling, ah mannnnnnn! ) to ya!

We should split the Gold of Fort Knox evenly among all those residing in America. Note that I said "residing" for I do not wish to discriminate against non-citizens ( never mind that some have been in-country for decades but still can't or won't pass a watered down citizenship test}.
We should also make it a law that no person should have more than his or her fair share.
The US gov't holds approx. 274 million ounces {1998 World Almanac}.
In the year 2000 there is projected to be 274 million people in the US
http://www.census.gov/population/projections/nation/nas/npas9600.txt
THUS NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO MORE THAN ONE OUNCE OF GOLD.
Anyone with more than that shall be guilty of a crime against his fellows. Or maybe the government should just confiscate it all to prevent the masses from cutting it up in little chunks and using it for money - God forbid!

You are right - Russian military systems are a big danger, and not only and not mostly because of Y2K. Unpaid officers, hungry soldiers, thats all there. That is more dangerous then Y2K - it may "explode" any time - not only on some fixed date.
Signing off now - 3:20 am in Amsterdam

Socialism = government ownership, government control;
Fascism = private ownership, government control;
Feudalism = government ownership, private control;
Freedom = private ownership, private control;

So if you advocate socialism you are advocating a slave system, not a free system.

Lets see how socialism works? The public school system; government owned, government controlled. No wonder the average fourth grader can't read at a fourth grade level.

Cuban and Soviet economies; government owned, government controlled and neither can produce enough food to meet that basic need. Bureaucrats decide what to plant, when to plant it, when to harvest; no wonder it doesn't work.

Court system in the US. Government owned, government controlled and does it work? What about the government owned, government controlled post office.

How about fascism? Zoning laws. Most monopolies fit in here. Government grants of privelege. Public utilities, banks, drug companies through governemnt regulation, most licensed professions, all are outside the free market. They enjoy better incomes because of the government control of their markets. As a result income is shifted out of the pockets of the many into the pockets of the few.

Many have seen these monopolies and misunderstood them to be capitalism thus reaching the conclusion that capitalism is evil. What is evil is fascism, socialism and feudalism.

Capitalism is freedom. Private ownership and control of property. In free markets rarely a successful competitor comes along and dominates a market, but their dominance is short lived. Alcoa, US Steel, and Microsoft are examples. No one granted them privelege. They earned their dominance in the free market.

The lesson of history; freedom generates economic innovation and a fair distribution of wealth. Slavery ( fascism, feudalism, socialism ) generates poverty for the many, economic stagnation, concentration of wealth for the few, and general human suffering.

The US economy is mixed with fascism and socialism rising and freedom waining. This is the source of our social decline.

The way the leaders of a government gain control, that is by coup or by democracy is unrelated to the economic system. It would be possible to have a dictator preside over a free economy ( although highly unlikely ) and as is evident here and in Europe, it is possible to have an elected government preside over a slave state.

You seem pretty excited about what Democratic Socialism is going to get you. I hope you realize that freedom is not it. What you are looking for is a guarantee that nobody is going to get more than you. After all, it's just not fair, is it?

As tempting as that guarantee is, placing that kind of power into the hands of government is not a good idea. As ( Senator ) Daniel Boone said "what the government gives me, the government can take away from me". The freedom / equality debate goes on. Reminds me of the Christian's faith /acts debate in some ways.

I'd rather have an uneven piece of the huge pie unfettered capitalism gives me than an equal share of the tiny pie you get with socialism.

-- back to work, but I'll be checking.

see it

Of course, my experience with Visa has nothing to do with military systems. Or satellites. But they work on it, right? Lets tack about it tomorrow - it is too late here - ok?

It's reassuring that many posters here are pondering the same problems. I ponder these questions privatly but that falls under the heading of subjective conjecture and I don't discuss it with anybody.

But this is Sunday and I have a story for you. True

In the mid 70's I was in the Cascades to plant trees at about the 6000' level near the Entiat north of Wenatchee Washinton. I got there a day early ( before the planters ) to meet the compliance man and figure out the job. I was fixing to bed down in the back of the car when I noticed what looked like black doors rotating about 30' above the ground moving from left to right. ( just take a piece of cardboard or something and rotate it to get the idea )
Well that was strange, but completly outside my experience so I went to bed. About 3 o'clock the car qas being bounced up and down from the rear,violently. It stopped and when I looked outside there were about 6 dark figures out there. Big ones, like 8' tall ones. I had a gun and a dog but the dog was gone and it was a .22 pistol so I just got out of the car.
It smelled like a circus outside, they didn't crowd me,just looked at me.They were a mixed bunch, males and females, redish hair, with a male as the spokesman. I stuck out my hand and said" At least we can be friends." They don't shake hands. He just looked at me and said " I buckle my belt with Orion". I got the impression he didn't feel inferior. That's all that happened, they just melted into the dark.
I was listenin g to Native America Calling ( radio program on public radio ) and a girl near Klamath Falls reported the same rotating door experience just before being comfronted by a Sasquach. Made me feel better, 23 years later, the same thing is happening.
Forest Service empolyee started chasing them in the area, quit his job, wrote a book....Sunday aafternoon.....Dog disappeared, came back the next morning..

Labor in Pennsylvania once demanded ever increasing concessions from the capitalist corporations. Last time I drove through Pittsburgh enroute to my father's home it seemed like somebody lost the fight.
Bully Beef: Your 21:07 is an EXCELLENT SYNOPSIS!

IN EXTREMIS RObber baron CHILD LABOR. CHILD LABOR THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. Without the temper of Peoples' Democracy the greed for profit at the expense of destroying Human life would go unchecked. Capitalism is a great system if harnessed by freedom and trade unionism without which it is brutal feudalism. Only the LAW and LAWYERS strike fear into the heart of thePROFITEERS! GO FREEDOM!!

Talked to MJPL til the wee hours last nite. We agreed that we agree with your 6/21 12:51 posting in nearly every aspect. U.S. foreign policy is arrogant and downright stupid. As you point out, the sanctions we impose on Cuba and Iraq hurt the people much more than the dictatorial powers we oppose. In fact, I suspect that they actually help the likes of Castro and Hussein, since they have the U.S. to blame for their woes. An excuse has been provided.

Yet, if we did business in these regions, the rest of the world would accuse us of "supporting" a tyrannical regime just to make a profit. If you're the U.S. you just can't win in world opinion.

ASIA/EUROPE
SPOT PRICE
June 21, 1998
9:13PM New York Time

Timezone Equivalents
.
Bid
Ask
Change from New York close
GOLD
296.10
296.60
-2.90
-0.97%
SILVER
5.31
5.36
-0.06
-1.12%
PLATINUM
357.00
359.00
-3.85
-1.07%
PALLADIUM
290.00
300.00
+0.85
+0.29%

Under capitalism, in the winter some folks get a coat and some folks don't. Under socialism, everyone gets half a coat.
-EJ

The producers are blasting out gold with both hands and will soon be in a position where they cannot afford to stay in business. For years now i have maintained that Aussies are a little short in the business and investing acumen departments! They tend to operate with a knee jerk reaction which often has them selling at the bottom and buying at the top. The gold market is no different in Aussie Land!

ROR: you're scaring me. Logical argument consists of more than capital letters and exclamation points. If you want some real ammunition for making a case for socialism, you might try Jack London's "The Iron Heel" and "People of the Abyss". Best case for socialism I've ever read. Perhaps some of us could be persuaded to your point of view, but the raving isn't going to get you there.

I'll hold you to that offer when the s/s job is finished. I will give you my e-mail adr. when it's time. And I will pay for the shipping.

Just as it is the God given right of every human being to have access to free health care on deamand. So should it be the God given right of each human being to have access to free legal counsel. Without cost and on demand.

It's the only avenue open for the little guy, to pursue justice in a society dominated by large power blocks. There is no other way to achieve justice. And yet most are unable to afford it. Justice is too precious to allow it to be defined and controlled by lawyers. This power too must be seized by all right thinking democratic believers.

Physicians are being placed in harness for the greater benefit of society. There is no reason that lawyers should not be as well. After all a society without justice is tyranny. And a stench in the nostrils of all believers on democracy.

Robber barons of the 19th Century were really fascists. They went to the government and ask them to violate the free market by granting them privelege. They were not capitalists. The Western railroads were the prime example. Labor unions, by the way are part of the anti freedom fascists system. They generally are supported by government in thier violation of the free market. The result is higher wages for a few and unemployment for those excluded from the union. In extreme cases union membership is passed from father to son. Unions are as evil as the the fascist businesses they hate.

Or does someone not like the NDX tonight????

I see ROR is in rare form this weekend...

Millenium madness anyone? Global warming, asteroids, planetary alignment, biological warfare, third worlders with nukes, Y2K and nukes, just the plain old end of the world... Did I leave any thing out? Now, tell me why gold isn't reacting as well as it should?

Oh, I did forget something. Robert Rubins position on the dollar. What is the current position at 21:52 EDT?

Gold on the Tokyo Exchange is UP 21 Yen at day's high of Y1307.

See following the GOLD CORNER 24-HOUR TRADING website. Once there CLICK on "TOKYO GOLD" icon. Recall you need to delete the extra letters "en" in the URL before pasting it to the Internet locator:

http://www.golden-eagle.com/quotex/goldcorner.html

It's about 30 gallons per run, so I should offer more than a quart. But by the time taste testing and celebrating is over, well you know. I sure hope it's soon because you can't sprout the corn in the fall. Don't worry, you'll know as soon as I do.

Jeil: "Robber barons of the 19th Century were really fascists."

I don't think that has changed at all. They still go to the govt for, special dispensation, handouts and in end absolution. The unions have merely become more corrupt. But that's democracy in action.

Ror. When you root for the lawyers, you expose yourself as the fake, phony, fraud that you are. Everybody knows that this profession, is the most greediest of them all.

An extremely kind offer which I humbly accept.

As Massachusetts tries to pass another gun ban, you know, those evil semi-auto weapons, what do you think is happening? The soon to be victims of the ban ( lawful gun owners ) are, ( gasp!, shock and horror! ) buying every weapon they can get their hands on...

I am simply for freedom which is entailed in free market SOCIALISM. EJ and/or EARL are Doctors who hate the NOBLE PROFESSION. W/O Lawyers there would be no freedom its very simple Doctors hate Lawyers because Lawyers hold Doctors to personal responsibility. Horrors the same responsibility the RICH want to be carried BY the WELFARE KIDS..give me a break.. If it werent so true it wouldnt be so disgustin'GO FREEDOM, GO DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM!!

Glad you posted you comment re: fascism. I have not been following the action this afternoon and only read your most recent post re: god given right to legal service. I figured you were being facetious, but you were so good at it that I was not sure. I almost posted a comment that mink coats and BMW's were as good as ( maybe even better than ) legal service so we ought to have those provided "free" by the government also.

EJ ( Difference between Capitalism and Socialism )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Capitalism, man exploits man. With socialism
it's the other way around.

I liked that one!

PANDA,
Nope, it ain't you ( why isn't gold reacting... ) it's the old John Wayne Syndrome...everyone keeps thinking that the good ole' Yanquis will keep on a ridin' to the rescue, as in last week's yen-bailout.
At any rate, that's the view from up here.
Mo from To

Interesting articles in L.A. Times about America's illusory immunity to Asia crisis: http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/OPINION/topstory.html

http://www.dsausa.org

From a chart reading and sentiment perspective tomorrow has the possibilty of being a very large up day. In spoos on Friday the low of the large up day ( 6/17, which also happened to be an up gap ) was defended successfully as it has been done so far tonight on Globex. All the usual market internals are on lows comparable to January 98 and October 97. The put/call measures are at highs not seen since those same dates. ( When is the last time they were correct??? ) So if you have a few loose dollars and wish you had more to buy guns and gold with, here's a tip: put it in options or futures on the stock market tonight or tomorrow and pretty spoon you can also buy a third generator.

I'm not sure, but is that an example of fascism or is it supply and demand, or perhaps democratic socialism?

I do not belong to DSA but they are on point re many subjects. I agree proudly with many of their objectives.

Try again deleting "en" in word "golden" ALSO, subsitute an "s"

for the "z" in word q-u-o-t-e-z before posting. Tuh Tuh

http://www.golden-eagle.com/quotex/goldcorner.html

ROR: Your ravings are semantically null. You sound like a cheerleader for a soccer team. I can't imagine what it is you are trying to accomplish. You're not persuading anyone, you're just embarassing yourself. You have yet to address any of the interesting points your fellow posters have made in opposition to your promotion of Democratic Socialism. You just babble on about nothing, not really saying anything.

Care to tell us what the point of all this nonsense is?

You have lost your mind, pure and simple. Have you ever done anything on your own? Go to work, you can do it, I just know you can.

Its simple, I am for freedom and against private tyranny.

I'm going to misquote Gordon Liddy to make a point ( I beg forgiveness in advance ) .

Socialist: someone who wants to do good for other people with your money, not his.

Libertarian: thinks best thing you can do for most people is leave them the hell alone.

Earl ( 21:45 ) Good Grief! I was not aware that it was "democratic" to enslave some members of the community for the "benefit" of others. I wasn't aware that God sanctioned it either

EVERYBODY should click on the web site in robnoel's post and see where ROR is coming from!!!

Hong Kong
Hang Seng
^HSI
10:20PM
8462.35
-129.56
-1.51%

Earl was being facetious in the midst of a food fight. It's ROR contra mundum at Kitco tonight. Note the classic use of oxymoron when ROR says "free market socialism". What are your thoughts on gold this next week?

your only shot is your boy Bill calls for Martial law and institutes what you really believe a NAZI form of government,you do know you are promoting HITLERS agenda,ask me to prove it and I'll hang you with all your posts today

I am ready for the Government to take care of me....bring on socialism!

By the way, to take care of me in a society where no one has to work, where does the government get the money it needs?

HighRise

Bill Buckler: I was being facetious. ..... For ROR's benefit. Besides, I only believe in enslaving lawyers. And not in principle but, in fact. Ordained by God Almighty, it was. Told me so, His Ownself.

On a moment's reflection, it really is remarkable that the American system has been largely skewed by the legal types and yet they are unhappy with the result. ....... Go figure.

tell me do you buy or sell gold .gold mining shares, options derivatives or anything conected or just gurge out socialist ****

It would appear that you are trying without much success to impose socialism on others who are not too keep try BC

do buy a little gold

cpo

I am reminded of a child who wants attention and has only learned that misbehaving works. Carl Chesman while on death row said something to the effect that any attention was better than none and that was why he was such a miscreant.

You are wasting you time asking for an intellectual discussion however. The work of psychiatry to to reveal to a person his delusions. That apparently takes years. It is fruitless to confront a person's delusions directly, and as a matter of fact it only drives them further into support of those delusions. We are dealing with an emotional, not an intellectual issue in the present case, so while it may be fun to issue a rational confrontation, it is fruitless and meaningless.

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rests. ( Simon and Garfunkle )

I think it's a special case of supply and demand. If this is Sunday and the law says the hohouse is being closed Sat. I expect there's going to be some ass torn up by then. Once you telegraph the limit on an item of demand, demand takes over supply.

get in touch with "true" freedom.

There they go again, the damn color! Red! DSA loves to plaster that color everywhere. Makes you kind of wonder....NOT. It always bothers me when I see that color used in a political context. It always means blood shed for a cause.

Very good ( your 22:16 post ) . A simple declarative sentence sure beats the rah-rah stuff.

If you are for freedom, why do you promote Socialism? Have you no knowledge of 20th century history? The most egregious crimes against humanity and freedom have been committed by socialist governments. Socialism does NOT make any guarantees re freedom. It is economic equality that Socialism attempts to guarantee, at the expense of freedom. What you actually get is inequality in other forms. Having given government tremendous power to accomplish this fine goal of economic equality for all, you find that the serfs ( i.e. any citizen without political power ) all get tiny equal shares while the politically powerful get massively disproportionate shares. Where is the freedom in that?

It is a true shame that when true freedom is promoted those opposed thereto go on the offense. Go Democratic Socialism, Go Freedom!

Overnight trading, sad to say, shows Aug gold @ $298.00, off $2.80 and July silver @ $5.315, off $0.037.

The so called socialist govts were not. But provided convenient propaganda to provide anti democratic and anti freedom oriented animus against the open cause of working people liberty!

CBS market monitor has gold up, not down

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/data/dbcfiles/market_monitor.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

Panda: .... at the gun thingy. The only logical explanation for the phenomenon is that it is promulgated by the Mass. Gun Dealer's Assoc., to drive up sales. Secretly, they conspire to irritate well placed vocal critics of firearms, and thereby elicit the sort of public pronouncement that drives up sales. It's an effective strategy. As we've seen, time and again.

Since there seems to be no shortage of well placed vocal critics, the arrangement should be counted on to work well into infinity.

For father's day, my son in law presented me with a classic. An SKS. It's always nice to have a backup to the other backups. T'would be nice if they were all the same caliber, though. ..... Off to get some Russky brass. {:-}

HighRise, looks like the Chinese are less impressed with Japan's post G-7 official patter than are the Japanese. Still, the Nikkei has plenty of time left in the day to drop.

ROR, my point with the coat/half coat thing is that socialism results in low productivity with good distribution of wealth while capitalism results in high productivity and poor distribution of wealth. This is true whether the political system supporting the economic system is democratic or not. No system is perfect but one offers relative benefits over the other. The ultimate measure of the relative success of one system over another is the relative number of humans trying to escape nations that support one system to nations that support the other.
-EJ

Remember the Bolsheviks. They found allies with the doctors and lawyers who disagreed with the Czarist rule. Granted, the Czarists had their short comings, but like the old story about the frog and the scorpion who wanted to get across the river The Bolsheviks wound up shooting the doctors and lawyers who supported them initially.

Above shows GOLD off $3.10 yet someone says Gold is soaring in Japan .
Am I blind and stupid also??????

To those who are more knowledgible, I would appreciate a response to this conundrum I have been mulling over concerning the economic effect of the currency intervention.



As well known, ( i ) the dollar has been in demand and is in abundance throughout most of the world, ( ii ) the US money supply has increased signficantly as a result, and ( iii ) the dollar is not competitive on a trade-weighted basis as evidenced by the trade deficit.



On one hand, the sale of dollars should assist in reducing the trade-deficit and thus strenghten the competitve aspects of the dollar, but on the other hand the sale should seemingly significantly increase the money supply, particularly if such intervening sales continue. This is because as the dollars are sold by the US Gov. by a check drawn on itself, the dollars will return into US banks as deposits and the money supply will expand as a multiple of the deposit. The Fed could offset this deposit and its affect on money supply by selling Treasuries but this will tend to increase interest rates.



Thus, it would seem the sale of dollars by the US adds additional fuel to an already inflationary bias by increasing the money supply, inducing an increase in the cost of imports, and/or possibly by an increase in interest rates.



I have not seen any commentary on this subject in the media and would appreciate receiving comments on this hypothesis from those who may be better informed.

Go git doze boyz WW; makem pay fer dere sinz.

Gold is up in Japan, but not in Australia.

Re Gordon Liddy. I read his book, "Will", years ago. He is one of a kind. He made some mistakes, but don't we all? He is a greater champion of freedom than perhaps most people realize. As for the Libertarians, I guess I are one. I don't agree with them on everything, but it's an imperfect world.

More behind the scene work by Free Market Socialists???

When going for the 'practical' things, I prefer numbers like .223, .308, .30-06, and my favorite, the .45 ACP. When thoughts turn to the single shot or bolt action things, then everything from the .218 Bee to the .300 Win Mag are handy for play. For the most usless, there is always the Desert Eagle in .44 Mag. When all else fails, with a full magazine, the Desert Eagle can be thrown about ten feet with the ability to crush any attackers foot!

You are as illogical as socialism is.

Sounds like Washington Double speak,

Socialism is a failed economic system. Therefore, it is a waste of time for us to be discussing it, unless you want to discuss where it has been implemented in the free world and threatens to destroy the work ethic of those people who have no incentive to work again.

Are you familiar with the welfare system in the US? It has been a total failure and is now being repealed and/or modified with a time limit and work requirement being required in several states.

The system is a pipe dream by those who wish to control and rape the masses under disguise of total economic equality and security at no cost to the individual.

Rob Peter to pay Paul....... under this arrangement, Peter will not work very long.
All Property belongs to the Government......so let them take care of it.

This conversation is 40 years old and all questions regarding the subject have been long answered where ever socialism has been tried. USSR, France, Germany, Canada, Great Britain, USA, Japan, etcetera. Socialism is a bankrupt economic and social system.

Enough said!

HighRise

I agree with your assesment.

How's your wife doing?
-EJ

http://www.thestar.com/editorial/news/980621NEW03_CI-BUG21.html
Year 2000 bug losing its bite
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/98/06/21/stibusnws03022.html?1733620
Millennium bug puzzle just child's play to Rubik expert

.

Trying to get an any price let alone an accurate price on Gold on Sunday night /Monday morning is a JOKE!

HighRise

Dem boyz have smarter computers than the rest of us.

Then there's this thought, most people don't look at their gross pay, only their net pay. Most people don't pay for auto repairs with cash, but with a credit card. Buy now, pay later. Why not apply the same reasoning to the currency marts?

Someday, the little old lady from Peoria is gonna want HER fifty dollar bill, and that will start the crash. :- ) )

Hi. She's doing well. She had to stay an extra day, but should be
home tomorrow.

Although I'm in Tokyo today, I have not heard of any additional intervention by the BOJ and the US Fed since friday of last week. It's morning here, the sun is out and I think the Nikkei in unchange so far.
The massive sales of US dollars last week were very deflationary. So now
instead of reflating, the US Fed is accelerating the deflation. I think it's just a matter of time before the Fed will reduce the federal fund rate as well as the discount rate. The Japanese are trying slow their recession by exporting as much as they can to the west. With our unemployment beginning to rise , how much longer would we allow that to continue ?

Well, it seems as the the magic has worked again! The NDX is up about 1200 pts. These sunday night markets are truly amazing...

ROR ( EJ or and EArl or whatever ) : Au contraire Amigo. I am not a physician. I don't even play one on TV. Though my business does involve a segment of the physician population.

I would venture to say that by and large physicians, at all levels, do a far better job of seeing to the best interests of their customers than do the lawyers. I read far more news accounts of lawyers disbarred for running off the widow woman's trust funds than I do of physicians held accountable for unethical behavior, moral turpitude or just plain faulty judgment.

Whether you believe it or not, I do read all of your comments. From them I a have firm conviction that your personal monetary interests are better served under a regime of your ( untidy ) description. The anguished expressions of social conscience are nothing more than smoke screen. A soft shoe shuffle to the accompaniment of sheer bullshit.

To the best of my recollection, you have been on this Democratic Socialist thing for over a year. In that time you have not once defined your point of view in anything resembling coherence. A description that is not chock full of the most egregious of childish contradictions.

Take for example: "Free market socialism". Duh?? It's either free or it's controlled. As it is now. Controlled by the democratic process?? We hold a plebiscite to pass judgment on corporate decisions??? It's not been made clear at all.

Most voters cannot find their collective ass with either hand and could not care less. As long as their comfort and convenience remains undisturbed. Look around you presently and historically. 90% of the human race lives and dies for absolutely nothing. ....... You and I included.

http://www.hkabc.net/cgi-bin/mtl-cgi

These quotes are pretty good.

Although BOJ's massive support has the Nikkei virtually flat, the rest of Asian Stock Markets are awash with customary "Tsunami Red."

Nonetheless, Tokio Gold is treading at Yen1307/gram - equivalent to about $US300 per ounce - UP Yen21 for Monday morning.

What's this I see - prices on Kitco - my gosh. Yen is trading at 137.50. Socialsim is dead. Technocratic control of economies is in. Fall in the price of goldin Asia is good. Might as well get the correction rally out of the way before London opens. Think it's going to be a while before the big fund shorts and the hedge sales are lifted, but when they do it will be a rush. It'll take more than $2 billion of intervention to stop the yen's fall; I think we have seen a slow down in momentum for the deflationary case at best. This arques for a base building period around $300 through the summer until the point where Japan does something to stimulate lending again - probably mandatory write offs of bad loans, acceptance of US capital to prop up the balance sheets on the remaining institutions and higher Japanese interst rates to stem the out flow of mobile capital. More and more it adds up to a range bound summer followed by fireworks in the seasonlly stronger fall and early winter period.

I think you'll know a turn has occurred when silver rallies two days in a row.

by the decent of the yen. The rapidly falling yen creates short term incentives for Asian distributors of US technology products to take large inventories now to sell at relatively higher profits in the future. I only have circumstancial evidence of this from four different US hardware and software vendors but it is reasonable to assume that the effect may be widespread.
-EJ

We are coming dangerously close to having a real conversation here ( though you lapsed back into cheerleader mode there at the end ) .

Socialism starts off with the simple idea that if someone has more than you, you have every right to use the power of government to confiscate his "excess" and use it to top off your own bank account. Freedom for the individual is not part of the equation.

I find the whole idea unsupportable. It's the politics of envy and has no root in what is right. "We've got the guns, you don't, so pay up." I say again, if you give that kind of power to government, it will inevitably be used against you. Maybe not now, but eventually.

Socialism is the antithesis of freedom. Your rantings about freedom have no meaning. It's like the devil quoting scripture. Talk about it all you want, if you are in favor of the tremendous government power it takes to accomplish all that confiscation of property, you ain't for freedom, you agin' it.

A Japanese friend was telling me today that Tokyo has 1 million homeless
people. These are people that lost everything they owned and are living in the Tokyo area. They don't count these people as unemployed because in Japan if you work 1 hour a month , you are fully employed.

The S. Korean and Chinese markets have also been stable/slightly up all evening. A mixed market on this early Monday.

http://www.kitco.com/london.fix.article.html

HighRise

Trying to press the BACK button to edit, and yikes! Sent an incorrect post.

S. Korea whipsawing in ever smaller moves, broke out to the upside about an hour ago.

China had a brief dip below yesterday's close and has been up since.

Japan's action, down, up, now near yesterday's close, looks the weakest of the three.

A mixed market in Asia. Time to refocus. We've a long week ahead.

Slingshot: I like your stuff better than mine. I think I'll retire from the field.

Thanks

HighRise

Sometimes I don't know where these things come from . NASDAQ 100 is up a mere 170 points as of this hour. Japanese gold trading at $300 per oz - I doubt it is now, and the article on the gold fixing process teaches not to put much stake in anybody's ideas about the prospective price of gold.

Looks like a quiet summer for gold marked by these occasional spikes of minimal short covering, followed immediately by a vacuumn into which prices again descend.

A higher close today would be the first signal such a senorio is incorrect. Bet we don't see such good technicals, AGAIN.

NOTE: Gold trades on Saturday, lost a buck.
6/21/98 -- 10:47 PM

Gold in Hong Kong opens lower


HONG KONG ( AP ) - Gold in Hong Kong opened at $296.15 an ounce on
Monday, down $1.00 from Saturday's close of $297.15.

HighRise

Another bad sign for Gold, that I read earlier in the press today, is that there is a 18 to 24 month Oil supply out there.

HighRise

JP: In addition to the unemployed of Japan; I recently read an article on a caste ( literally ) of Japanese that are consigned to work in slaughter houses. Apparently, that line of work is not to normal Japanese taste.

It seems that this particular caste has been in existence for the past several hundred years and members are born into it and cannot leave. Obviously with a system like this, they are not afforded even minimal fruits of Japanese accomplishment. Cradle to grave, they work in the slaughter houses and are totally shunned by the rest of Japanese society.

Japan sets timetable for bad loan clean-up plan

decide by July 8 on the "bridge bank" plan


Highlighting the need for Japan to fix its banking woes, sources at the Long-Term Credit Bank of Japan Ltd ( LTCB ) said on Saturday that the bank was considering a merger or restructuring -- both requiring some form of public funds -- to get out of its financial bind.


But it still has a lengthy list of issues to tackle, including getting banks to disclose the true extent of their problem assets and to speed up write-offs of bad loans.

Authorities must also clarify a still vague framework for using public funds to handle failed institutions and to facilitate the merger of those too weak to survive but too important to go out of business all together.

Assessing the scope of the bad loan problem, in particular the amount of loans not yet classified as "bad" but which might turn sour, is vital to creating a scheme to solve it.

http://www.freecartoons.com/ReutersNews/JAPAN-ECONOMY.html

There have been some very interesting comments on socialism the last few days, Sling Shot's commentary included.

The biggest fallacy in socialism is that it's fair, it is not. Socialism ultimately socializes failure. Any spreading of the wealth is an effect that is up front and very temporary. To take from the "evil rich" and give it to the "deserving poor" has historically led to the poverty that tend to exist in all the workers paradises as the rich are those who produce wealth and the poor are those who all to often only know how to consume.

The beauty of the American System before it was corrupted by socialism was that it compartmentated failure. People were free to do what they wanted to do * BUT * everyone in the system understood they reaped what they sowed. Your mistake was limited to only your business partners and yourself. This put a check on people that is not present today. Today many people act in there economic lives like a drunk lives in his drinking life. In AA there is a concept of "the enabler" that is someone who allows the alcoholic to practice his life of debauchery. "What you passed out on the front yard ( again ) I'll take the urine stained pants off of you and tuck you in bed" Enabler are essential to many drunks, they not only cook for them, but provide a rational for their behavior: Bad parents, tough knocks in life, any excuse except the drunk himself is a derelict. Why spend time and money on someone who cares less about himself that you could ever could. Only people who want to be helped can be helped. In all to many people this helplessness is a learned response.

Socialism predicated upon the assumption that only government can do some things. That is another way of saying only government is stupid enough to so some things like supporting prices for political purposes. When the yen was at 146, what was Uncle Sam paying for it to get it back up? Robert Rubin is a smart guy alright, he used taxpayers money for the purchases, not his or his old firm Goldman Sakes.

It's gone now?
http://www.kitco.com/gold.live.html

HighRise

I myself am for Private Freedom not Public Tryanny...

US Dollar Index ( FINEX )
Sep
100.30
100.30
100.19
100.27
+0.44
6/21/98
19:55
100.35


Gold ( CMX )
Aug
298.0
299.0
297.2
297.2
-3.6
6/21/98
20:23
297.2
297.1
Silver ( CMX )
Jul
531.0
534.0
529.5
530.5b
-4.7
6/21/98
20:15
531.0
http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.htm f

You got a Whoops and a Yikes all in the same post. Brabo! A Giant Gulp of Tequila to ya! yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Where or when has Democratic Socialism succeeded in its goals long term?
Also...
Under Democratic Socialism the bums across the street in the bar who are drinking up the welfare money their wives/girlfriends get can VOTE to make sure that I pay 1/3rd or maybe even half of my gross income so they can afford drink and drugs and their wives/girlfriends can continue wheeling their baby carriages into the SS {social services} to collect THEIR share of the fruits of my labor. I can not afford a family of my own because I already am supporting theirs.
Question ROR
Why do I continue to work? WHY SHOULD I TRY TO MAKE ENOUGH TO PAY MORE TAXES in the 28% fed tax bracket? At that level over half of each additional dollar {adding all the fed, state & local pieces} that I earn goes to support someone else - who votes to make me donate more to raise his or her family or to support his or her habits while they can sit in the bar or wheel their baby carriages down the street.
Maybe I should give up working, move in with some woman, have a bunch of kids, and collect my "fair share" of free benefits. Then I would have lots of time to sit and BS with the boys.
Every time a vote comes up to raise taxes to pay for my benefits I will vote yes. Why not? I am not paying those taxes.
But if the majority start doing that who will be foolish enough to continue working to support all those Democratic Socialist Programs?

Why is the sale of USD deflationary ?

I think you are right on the direction of short term rates.
This should be very bullish for GOLD.
This should also allow an orderly bear market in general US equities which would be great for AU stocks in lieu of a general blow off.


It apperars that the plan is to fight a rear guard retreating action of hittum & run on the Yen until after the upper house election in Japan, whereupon it's put up or shutdown time for the Nippon economy, unless they deal with their bad bank debts a la the US S&L Crises. If they do not announce a credible program to deal with this by the end of August it will be sianarra the Yuan, a total melt down of the Yen and a death spiral to deflation & explosion of the USD . This ofcourse would mean a quick drop in US rates. Greenspan is waiting for lower earnings to lower the stock market before he pulls the trigger on lower rates. He has announced a tight bias toward raising rates in the same way that R. Rubin said intervention was not going to happen.

What is going on politically in Japan ? Is there any real politcal alternative to the LDP ?
Are the politicians talking to their people about fixing the banks ?
Is there any real political choice or democracy in Japan ? Is ther any hope for real change of the leadership ?
Will they really address ther prblems after the election ?
These are simple, but sincere questions as the coverage of Japan coverage in the US is just abysmal & I am simply ignorant.


Y.O.S.


TAR BABY