Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:09 - ID#201238)
RJ, Bart, 404 etc.
Last night RJ elevated me to an elder in the Kitco group. I have learned much here, given some back and met many many friends.

Tonight Bart informs us that if we are not good boys and girls we will be given 404. Last I knew 404 is a flotation reagent for gold ( guess that tells you where my mind is ) . Anyway, I am very uncomfortable with Bart's new approach, not as much as Mozel though.

Bart, I don't have an answer. I do not like the possibility of censorship, but it is your ship and you are the Captain. For reflection you may recall that it the early days here we had a few who were commenting from mainland China. Where are they now? Obviously censored, not by you but by their government. No, we should be allowed to speak freely, but with civility and respect. If an individual can not conform to you view of that then, as I understand it, he gets the dreaded 404? How ironic, that something given a number of such is used to elevate gold particals in a flotation cell for recovery while the same number is given to suppress ideas about gold in the world's best gold forum.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:09 - ID#57232)
Socialism in state institutions
Slingshot: I work in a state institution -- more socialized than private business, but less than the Federal government. I have the same problem -- that non-productive workers are paid the same as productive ones. It is impossible to fire the non-productive ones, or cut their salaries. Since we must be 'fair', the non-productive ones get cost of living raises with everyone else. Destructive.

The federal government is even worse than this -- I remember a government worker who built the entire frame assembly of a personal car at government expense before he was found out years later. How would he find the time in a private corporation? A relative of mine worked at a national lab for nearly 20 years, and wound up an intellectual vegetable due to the lack of intellectual stimulation. He had to be institutionalized. I don't know of anything more destructive to the human psyche as a guaranteed job with no incentive for improvement.

Fortunately where I work, some of the people that work with me are still productive -- so far.

When private enterprise is forced to go to the insane extremes of employment regulation as the federal government, that will be the end of the American free enterprise system.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:09 - ID#43349)
Where oh where have all the charts gone?
They always worked great when prices were going down or static. I guess another good indicator of action in the markets is what percentage of the day the charts are up. With no price charts to look at and compare to world events it does make it hard to do any kind of analysis. Without any kind of good analysis the conversations do tend to deteriorate.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:11 - ID#401460)

Wednesday July 1, 10:42 pm Eastern Time
IMF head says China need not devalue yuan -- paper


(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:11 - ID#396249)
ROR I'am starting to get a complex,I am not going to attack you,lets start of in neutral ground..


(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:12 - ID#43349)
It's late.
I've been kind of busy all day and thought I'd drop in and see what's up. Not much. I'm going to retire. Maybe in the morning I'll see in the paper or on some other site that some reaaallly good new for precious metals has happened somewhere.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:14 - ID#433172)
Robnoel- Suspicious
Socialism isn't my cup of tea either, I found " getting the job done-on time" required a "boss", someone who could fire a guy sitting on his butt. Capit-a-lism, something that has a head, and can direct.
I happened to be planting trees, hundreds of acres in the mountains. That was not an easy job but once done who will benefit from the action? There is a collective benefit, even the guy who sat on his butt will be ahead. That's OK by me, just so I didn't have to put up with him in the process. Our production system can crank out "stuff" far in excess of our ability to pay for it, because the people on the bottom just can't earn enough. The "Capitalists" see to that.

Suspicious-- The problem of inherited wealth has to do with the same question as "socialism". If the experience gained in the aquistion of wealth could be passed on with the power there might be some merit in it.Not so, just the power is passed on, it's a way of gaining ego immortality, and a false way. Medievial, m'lord.
We should be concerned about the quality of the society we leave our children, all of our children, not just yours or mine. Not how many bucks they have to lord it over somebody elses kid.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:16 - ID#342376)
@ Mozel
I will miss your posts very much but I understand....perhaps let us know sometime where you are migrating to....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:20 - ID#57232)
Charts -- signing off
Gollum: I have no time tonight to post any of my charts -- getting late for me -- too many chores this time of year. However, I will leave you with something positive.

I have one chart of gold normalized to factor out fluctuations in the US dollar. This is based on the assumption that the US dollar is not going up forever -- reasonable, I think. What is highly significant is that this normalized price of gold has moved out of its two-year downtrend channel since April 1. Either gold has to drop to $250/oz or less very soon, or the downtrend of this indicator has ended. Very promising, given that others will eventually notice this gold price breakout.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:28 - ID#401460)

I agree,
With no charts or no current and accurate spot gold prices it is rather difficult to discuss the subject that this site is suppose to be all about.

I find it very difficult to remain calm when I find that the Kitco chart is not working again or when I find 4 different prices for Gold. Trying to determine if my CPU is the problem or Kitco has been a frustrating waste of time.

A 404 for Bart for tonight?....and every Sunday Night.

Good Night


(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:31 - ID#401460)


Good Night


(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:33 - ID#227238)
ROR: In scanning up through this evening's proceedings, it's apparent that you are fleshing out your ideas some. It's also apparent that actual implementation will require a constant source of PERFECT human beings, in order to administer your program. ...... Last time anyone bothered to look, perfect specimens were in very short supply. ... As to be non-existent. ...... If you really expect the legal profession to codify your ideas so that even your average welfare queen can run it, .... I do believe you will be disappointed. After all lawyers have codified everything we have right now.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:36 - ID#433172)
Don't go....Please write what you will, not for the censor but for the hell-of it. Wait till your bit before you holler, I think it's going to be OK, and you have a great legal mind. I've learned a lot from you, we will need you in the future.

F* was obviously unstable the other day, probably drinking. Seemed to me a lot of people called him names and egged him on, it was a two way street. I didn't like his crap, but I valued him and what he had to say and I'm saddened.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:41 - ID#284255)
Error 404
Another vine strangles the growth of the mighty Kauri.
It roots have been trimmed.
And its branches pruned.

Alas it will be a cultured tree.
Without nature to bend it's course,
As it reaches to the heavens.

Kudos to the GOLDEN Kauri growing free...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:46 - ID#431366)
K2 dissolved into chaos - let this not happen here.
While we may offer up many and varied opinions and have those opinions dissected by others here in the tradition of peer review - the personalization of those dissections may do here what happened at the old K2. There it eventually got so bad that even the regulars who enjoyed each others company were calling for registration or even dissolution of the site. BART was called in by the tenants to put the site out of their misery. Unfortunately the new K2 has not been tenanted by the good old regulars in sufficient numbers to warrant it's continuance. Thus for the sake of letting some vent - the whole site was lost.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 00:56 - ID#105111)
The problem is universal. Eventually business defends itself by paying everybody in coin that is worthless .... you end up like the USSR where factory workers justified their sloth with "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work" ... all the REAL business went underground.

Socialism is another form of using the power of government ( essentially the power of the gun ) to take from those you consider undeserving ( never ourselves, of course ) and give to the deserving ( guess who? ) . This is a weapon that always turns in your hand, though. Just when you thought you'd found a way to get the local sheriff to take from that fat cat next door and help you make your car payment, there's somebody down the street who gets your car because the gov't's decided it likes him better.

The nice thing about the limited government instituted in the U.S. constitution is that people trained themselves not to expect the government to fix all their problems. Once you quit thinking of government as a fairy godmother, it becomes easier to leave people the hell alone and mind your own business.

Another good point about socialism is one made by a Cuban citizen on NPR the other day. He pointed out that the only cars in good shape were the ones privately owned. Everybody felt entitled to ride in the ones owned by the state, but nobody felt the need to keep them repaired. That was always someone else's job. This is one of the inherent flaws of socialism.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:00 - ID#153111)
I have been trying for sometime to get out of Quattro Pro for DOS and into a Windows based spreadsheet. My problem is that Q.Pro for dos was one great program for charting, I have yet found a Windows based spreadsheet that will do the job for me. I say this because I would really like to share some of my data with you guys but Q.Pro can chart what I want but can't post it on the Internet, Q.Pro for windows or Excel doesn't seem to have what I want for charting.

The two charts I would like to show everyone is: the chart of US$ in circulation from 1920 to present AND a chart for gold plotted along with the current yield on the US Long Bond. In 1920 there were only 4,480 million ( That's only 4.48 billion dollars floating around the US economy ) . Some 78 years later those dollars have grown to 481,323 million dollars ( That's 481.32 billion dollars in circulation ) . Doing the math there has been a increase of the US money supply as measured by dollars in print by a factor of 107. Now that would not be so bad if they had indexed the income tax tables also by that factor. Steve Forbes sent me a copy of the first IRS Form 1040, as I recalled you had to receive an income of $3,000.00 to be eligible for income taxation in 1913. Multiply that old bottom bracket ( taxable at like 2% as I recall ) by 107 and you would not get taxed until you got paid something like $300,000. Big Government loves inflation!

The second chart is a plot of gold and interest rates using a 10 week moving average. It is uncanny how gold leads the current yield of the Long Bond. I don't know anything that leads gold, but if you believe, like I do, that the world is going to gag on US dollars and bonds sometime soon, then this data strongly suggest that gold will start to rise mysteriously in a big way just before the bond market craters. I just wish I could chart this and get it on the forum.

What programs are being used in Kitco land by people who have years and years of data they chart? I would really like to know. Q.Pro for Dos did moving averages, charted on two Y axis lot of good stuff.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:12 - ID#252127)
The Gold Islamic Dinar

I sense that it will be a mechanism for settling debt within and between indiviguals of countries with Moslem majorities.

Has anyone an idea of how the various nations in the Islamic block, but without a true Moslem majority ( say 75% minimum - as politics is an ugly animal ) will view this contemplated non fiat money of gold and silver?

Interesting to read that the group sponsering the Dinar/ Dirham claims that Mid-east fundamentalisim as well as Anglo/European Usery will have no place in its framework.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:12 - ID#433172)
Where's the problem? All Bart is saying is to quit calling each other bad names? That's not censorship.

Sharefin-- Aye, but the golden fruit might taste as sweet.

All we have to do is follow the style of RJ, that should be vent enough, and interesting.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:20 - ID#190411)
ROR be itchin' for 404
Interlopers as ROR don't have anything to add to the discussion.

"It" is here to merely poke around in the beehive to see what comes out.

I'm at a loss to find anything of value in his posts. ( Witte excepted )

He only wastes the intellectual talents of the gentlemen that reply.

I wonder at the vituperation directed at farfel, prior to his tantrum.

A few of the "go along-get along" types were ready to ban mozel.

Or, sharefin, who clutters the late evening with prose.

Whether you like the postings of the provocative thinkers of this superior fellowship or not, you'd best consider the consequenses of having them drift away.

shalom to you too corporal.

404's to me.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:24 - ID#257148)
I am distraught that you may not post again. You have taught this salty antipodean much history and law, I have been privately calling it "Liberation Studies." I look forward to your posts. I wish you well, and hope you return.

some quotes in your honour:

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

Samuel Adams

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man." -
George Bernard Shaw

"Liberty of thought is the life of the soul."

"Sweet are the uses of adversity. Which like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head. And this our life, exempt from public haunt, Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything.
17th Earl of Oxford, As You Like It

"A patriot is one who loves his Country more than he fears its government"

"Like liberty, gold never stays where it is undervalued."
JS Morril Speech to US Senate 25 Jan 1878

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:26 - ID#153111)
ROR: On Yuppie's and my question
As far as being high paid Yuppie, you are far off course in regards to me. I use to be a bitter inner-city youth resentful of the fat-cats that were going on to success. I have had 20/400 vision all of my life and my folks never bought me glasses. How I learned to read is a mystery to me. The point being I was on my own growing up in inner-city America with a bunch of liberals telling me how tough I had it and I needed them to get along in life. One day I got a job in a company that had mostly hired the youth of the Yuppie's. They were all educated and focused on what they needed to do for their future. God they actually thought in terms like "where do I want to be in 20 years?". I pissed away a high school education and two years of tech school waiting for someone to do something for me!

Well I'll tell you how smart I'm, I figured out all by my self that if I'm going to make it in life I got to become like those yuppie youths you socialist so hate. I forgot about everyone else and the hand fate dealt to them and started to play my hand in the game of life. I was in the US Navy for most of my adult life, and educated myself in the world. I never had a car for 20 years or a apartment. I was on some of the most miserable ships the Navy had, any judge would refuse to allow prisoners to live like I did. The biggest pay check I ever got form Uncle Sammy was $1,400 and that was because I was in a income tax free zone, the Persian Gulf in a war.

I don't need you socialist to make it in life, you guys are weak. Now ROR I asked you a question last night and I'm going to ask it from you again. I'm really curious if you can answer it?

From my reading of history I know of no socialist order tarting from scratch. Germany was a rural backwater when it started to develop industry, as was Britain, the US, you know all of the bad old wicked capitalistic nations. Also it seems that socialist orders always come after someone else builds a nation's industry. How can this be explained
except to say that socialist don't really build anything, but rather they steal what others have built? A further reading of history tells me that from the pool of workers you guys always praise some small fish gets big and starts an iron or oil empire and you hate his guts for being successful. Is that to say you like workers as long as they stay in their place?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:30 - ID#433172)
MJPL Slingshot
What constitues a "bond crater", sounds to me like you might be on to something.

Slingshot-- I don't disagree with what you said on your last post. Perfectly true. But "laissez faire" capitalizm has some equally horrendus contradictions, socialism and capitilism need to get married instead of just hanging out together. Legally, and be done with this under-the covers stuff.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:32 - ID#284255)
Metastock or Supercharts will display your data and allow you to manipulate it to your hearts desire.

Supercharts can link to an Ascii file or Excell spreadsheet.
But has a fifty year ( approx ) limit on showing data.
Whereas Metastock will allow you to show a longer time frame.

If you wish I could plot the data for you and then post it here.
I stopped posting that prose a while back due to a couple of comments.
But received a few emails from others who appreciate such art.
They requested that I not stop so I occasionally slip them in,
In the quiet hours of the morning.

I am sorry if such prose disturbs you.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:36 - ID#190411)
The free-for-all on K2 was good at times, wasn't it?

At K1, You have become a bit too staid.

Do your old thing: The thrust and parry.- Shiv in the ribs.

You've got more to say about "low capital" people than a busfull of ROR's

You're too smart to be associated with them.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:43 - ID#24135)
Just a minute, Mr Mozel
For Mozel ..
Please be reasonable .. I think Bart is only trying
to reduce the level of meaningless flack. I dont
think he wants Pablum and I cant believe he is seeking
political correctness. But a little restraint is
sometimes useful. If the site gets too goody goody
then we're probably all out of here and the lurkers
with us. The site would then have no players and Bart
would soon be talking to himself
Your contribution is outstanding .. crazy for you
to migrate. Nobody likes censorship .. but all good
pubs need a bouncer.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:46 - ID#284255)
I am not against the more peaceful version of Kitco.

There is a lot to be said for,
When the postings are of a higher quality.
There has been far too much use of the scroll button of late.

But the variety of posters/postings,
Make this site great and greater.

Many new comers have different ways of expressing themselves.
And to restrict or scare them off.
Will do none of us a favour.

I do not wish to experience the trash,
But I do not wish to miss the diverse.

Regimentalism will make it all to boring.

A couple of pies in the eye's of the many.
Ocasionally make up the lighter side of Kitco.

Too much - too staid
Will detract from the free flowing effervescence,
That flow through the mighty_hallowed_halls@Kitco

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:49 - ID#207145)
john Dissey,
I'm glad you are thinking for yourself again and now understand why the Yen is up and when it's going down day you might even think ahead. It helps money wise.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:51 - ID#190411)
I was saying that there are people that complained about the prose.
Don't count me among them.
--Still contemplating the girl in the blue dress.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:51 - ID#386245)
404 anyone?


1 ) Dont post any derogatory remarks regarding any groups race, religion, or ethnic
2 ) Dont use profanities or foul language.
3 ) Dont make any insulting remarks or statements that provoke other participants.
4 ) Dont post any unrelated comments that are likely to arouse a strong emotional response.

Bart-- I agree completely with your removal of certain people who grossly abuse the hospitality of this site. The dialogue the other night was way beyond any measure of propriety and I support your action in this case.

1 ) Rule number one above is great. No problem ( except perhaps for certain people across the Tasman ) .
2 ) Rule number 2??? C'mon Bart, I probably won't last a week. I was raised in the 'Billy Connoly' school of conversation. Are we allowed to say bulls**t?? The English language is much the poorer without a bit of spice.
3 ) Rule number 3. Well--there goes LGB,JD and a whole host of other excellent posters. Gonna miss you mates.
4 ) Rule number 4. This is so vague that you will need a thought-police hit squad to adjudicate.

Bart, I am no paragon of virtue and certainly not a shrinking violet. Many of my posts are off-topic as I commiserate with others who have seen their precious melt before their eyes.This helps relieve the stresses involved in throwing many k worth of paper around. I agree with the general thrust of your 404 post, but think you may have opened a very large can of worms. May free speech never be taken for granted and may the posters on this excellent site not abuse their posting priviledges.
We are, after all, guests in your ( cyber ) house.

Oh...and....ahem....GO GOLD!!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:53 - ID#287186)
Could Klinton be a treasonous traitor by intent?
And not just by bumbling for dollars & other favors.
( I purposefully used both terms - please look them up. )
For some time now I have thought this. Behind the Whitewater, Lincoln bedroom, sex, non-sex, campaign donations, lies etc. have languished far more important issues of national security and the bodies of those who posed a threat to him. I have had arguments on this subject with those who have wasted many hours of my time going on and on about the latest from Washington. They prove my point by spending 58 minutes on sexgate or whitewater and maybe 2 minutes {if I get in a word edgewise} on dead associates, US Naval shipyards, technology sales, scuttled ABM systems, etc.
The American Spectator {TAS} in the July issue opened its article on the latter topics with this statement.
"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the leader of a country without missile defenses has gone out of his way to help another country point missiles at it."
TAS follows with this quote from National Security Advisor Sandy Berger that the Clinton administration's repeated sales of missile technology to China were "pursued absolutely and totally on the basis of our judgment about national security".
Perhaps I am reading subtext into the article - but then maybe not.
One could give Klinton the benefit of the doubt and figure he was too ignorant to know what he was doing. OR one could give him credit for being one smart cookie and he knew very well what he was doing - purposefully sabotaging the defense capability of the United States and thus preparing us for slaughter. I find it easy to believe {which is even more disturbing} that he never did like this nation and what it stood for and that he would like to see it destroyed.
If the latter is the case - then we need not worry about the USG confiscating our Gold - for there will be no USG other than as an puppet controlled by China. Heinlein's book "Sixth Column" may be prescient.

P.S. If I should ever become a viable threat to Klinton {pretty unlikely} - my posts here would disappear or their content change significantly. Hmmmm. What country are we living in that I may fear a knock in the night?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:53 - ID#153111)
When a market "craters" it is the same as a big bad bear market. The US bond market has had a bear market, 1978-1984 or so. If you were to look at a copy of the Wall Street Journal or Barron's and find the "Bond Tables" there is a column called the "Rate" or "Coupon". This is the interest rate the bond way yielding on the day it was issued as opposed to the Current Yield which is the yield it is paying in today's interest rate environment. Any bond with a current yield of over 10% is by my opinion is a junk bond, and a junk bond is a bond where you could lose your money due to default by the insurer. Look at all the bonds issued by the US government that has a "rate" or Coupon of over 10%. There is a lot of them as in the late 70's and early 80's the world gave the US Treasury the credit rating of a distressed borrower.

Nothing has really changed, in fact things are really worse now than then. The only difference is that "Market opinion" has changed for the better in as far as the credit worthness of the US Govt. This period of good grace for the USA is only temporary, when it changes once again there will be blood flowing in the futures bond pits, pension funds, insurance companies and the US Treasury Mutual funds.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:55 - ID#207145)
Here you go John,
Lets think ahead. 20th to23 we have been selling into strength. Then we ta ke our profits. Then we go fishing or invest in plat. or palladium. November 1 we enter. October should have put in our low. Maybe we buy Gold and Asia. Maybe Oil. We don't buy those tired Blue Chips.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 01:58 - ID#257148)
There is no way the Merka's cup belongs in Merka. In fact, I now believe that the Merka's cup ( made of silver ) will never be torn from its home downunder.Why? Simply because Bluff oysters are the best in the world. Every single one "works."


I suspect that NZ capitalism is the most unfettered in the world. Today, for the first time under the recently permitted parallel importing legislation, a couple of dozen BMWs were landed in NZ from Malaysia by a private individual. BMW ( NZ ) who until a few weeks ago were the only permitted importers are not happy.
Our labour laws are getting more and more liberalised. Our border tarrifs are few, and are non-protectionist, unlike the despicable UK attack on NZ spreadable butter. The NZ Dairy Board, in another world first, developed a completely spreadable butter, that's right out of the fridge. The first shipment was impounded, the company officials arrested and charged with fraud. Now, six months later, the authorities agree that NZ spreadable butter is in fact GOLDEN butter. But the Dairy Board's competitors have developed similar products. The good guys are no longer first to market. Beaten by protectionist policies.

I believe that Merka is ring-fenced by agricultural protectionism. Any comments?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:00 - ID#207145)
I believe Gold,
was what I had in mind, when I compared it to a woman who was afraid, and needed to be seduced. Gold is like a virgin, afraid to get it on. I believe she is a tease. She will tempt all to want her, but she's not ready to be deflowered just yet. Great tease tho.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:11 - ID#433172)
I agree...diversity provides the spice...y2k, poetry, jokes, all relate in one way or another to gold, and the enjoyment of it.
I was into commercial trolling off Washington and Alaska for a few years,I still have my boat anchored in the bay within sight. I was a terrible fisherman, but I enjoyed it. I remember your post dealing with the overworked bottom. The fish can't hide anymore, any fool can get them with the electronics available today. But the beat goes on.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:14 - ID#411259)
..... New Sheriff in Town .....

It occurred to me that if one were to disappear from this site

Stop posting for a time, or perhaps altogether

We may never know whether it was by choice or design

They will just be gone, down the memory hole

If the rules were enforced, mighty defenses of the type mounted by LGB, James, myself, and others, would never have been engaged because the attacking party would been shown the door in the midst of their initial provocations.

I dont fear Barts judgment, he has time and again give very wide latitude to many of us - perhaps in hopes that we would work it out. I dont think he intends to stifle expression, but to change the tone to a more. for lack of a better word.. professional level.

I spoke with somebody who told me he would be embarrassed to advertise or post on a site that had the kind of crap from the other night. Do some of you think that this is all free? That Bart, through a sense of pure and honest altruism, opened this site only to put up with the endless complaints about charts and prices not updating, fights of one sort or another every week, and a hard to deal with bunch of anarchistic wackos ( myself included ) whose social skills dont quite match their typing skills?

Its not personal, Sonny.. Its strictly business


Some people dont agree with crocodile shoes. Is this borne of an outraged sense of fashion, or righteous indignation that anybody would wear the skins of these magnificent creatures?

If the former is your woe, tastes differ and they are very subtle..

If your worries are to be found in the latter, I have it on good authority:

That these crocks all died a natural death and each and every one had a skin donor certification on the back of its drivers license. None of those Chinese crocks, being held as political prisoners only to be executed to auction off their livers in Hong Kong for 120K each, retinas: 10K a pair, Heart: Market price.

No. These crocks lived long and healthy and productive lives before finally succumbing to the Crock Reaper. I have been told that it is their honor to donate their useless shell now that they have moved on to a higher plain.

I am mostly surprised I did not raise the ire of white wine drinkers who are, for the most part, pleasant company of good cheer even if their wine is just too. I dont know. Clear.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:16 - ID#257148)
404 --

Do ya see how Bart's#1 rule, explicitly omits sexual, ahhhem, peculiarities?


To be a little more serious, Bart. I would hope that the 404 ( whatever that is ) would be lifted after a suitably remorseful apology?

We all make mistakes. For some of us it's our maths, for others it's spelling, and for others, our social graces.

Surely the marks of mature debate must allow for the apology as much as banging one's metaphorical shoe on the rostrum?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:16 - ID#153111)
George_A: Freedom and socialism

George I'll tell you why socialism and capitalism can not possibly live together. Socialism implies that the ultimate power in you life is government. The state may give you a lot of slack on your leash but how much is up to them, not you. You may not smoke, but do your lungs belong to you or the government? That the government is mad that they have expenses to pay in health related cost in so far as tobacco is concerned is who's fault? They are the ones that nationalized the bodies of every American and now after they see how expensive it is they want to change the rules. And just who runs the government? Lawyers, Journalists, professional politicians, university professors: just what makes them wise enough to tell you what to do. Why are you so willing to surrender your freedom to the likes of these worthies who in all probability have never really had a real job in their life. That and most others may be comfortable now living under government control is not the point, how will you feel when the lords of leash decide to bring you in more than you want to. Do you exist for your own sake, or for the government? Freedom is an all or nothing proposition, you can no more be a little free than you can be pregnant. Not that I think that a poster calling himself "George" can get himself in trouble with his ovaries.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:19 - ID#285392)
Thanks for the replay. You may wish to look into the site yourself as a matter of interest. They seem to be making money. Best regards.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:21 - ID#431366)
A bit too staid, eh ERLE - re your 01:36
Unlike ROR - some of us ARE low capital folk and don't want others lookin' after our "best interests". Just leave us alone and we will survive by ourselves thank you very much. As to being too smart to be one of them - I am also too individualistic, stubborn and set in my ways to survive long in politics - corporate, office, organizational or otherwise. I am have been sentenced to being a lone wolf. This perhaps explains my continued belaborment of having Gold & Silver coins DEMOCRATICALLY distributed among every person on this planet. If each person had 1 ounce of Gold then there would be none left for CBs, governments and billionaire power brokers to screw with. This does not mean that each person is given that ounce. We each would still have to earn it. But at least in the USofA I believe most every person could afford to have at least a 1/2 ounce in Gold ( or Silver equivalent ) at any one time. At today's POG this is "only" US$150. At Squirrel's US$1000/ozt that would be a hard-to-reach US$500. Maybe a 1/10oz ( or the equivalent in Silver ) would be the most that "low-capital" folks like us could rub together at any one time. I am sure that some Kitcoites and others could afford to "democratically" redistribute the CB gold among themselves in quantites greater than 1 oz each to make up for us "low-capital" folk.

PS - Ahz hafta wurk on da bein' un-staid jist fer yu ERLE!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:23 - ID#153111)
Thank you for the information on charting software. I'll give Metastock a shot

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:27 - ID#252127)
Squirrel......something to think about

Some years before Pearl Harbor, New York City torn down the 3rd Avenue El and quess who they sold the steel to.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:28 - ID#433172)
Then inflation is the root?.... Bond interest rates are inflation is 10% the indicator? maybe less?

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:38 - ID#229103)
I did not fear a "knock in the night" until these people took power and that must include the people who constructed 4 years of Bush's premonition of the "New World Order."

Just as his travels to the U.S.S.R. during the Viet Nam War were no coincidence, Klinten's cultivation by the elite for this exact point in history was a necessary step for them. The excessive number of mysterious deaths around him of friends and foes who threaten his stranglehold, so exceed the bounds of statistical theories that what's left of the "free press" of this country should be cranking out encyclopedic size texts on the "disproofs of the theories of probability," or even better they should use the logic that God may have given them to seek some investigative truths.

But they are all on the same ideological side and the umpires have been paid.

Our investments pale in comparison to the the events rapidly unfolding.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:46 - ID#284255)
Pssst, wanna go fishin?
This is one homesick dude, for the life on the sea.
Been too many years now - far too many.
All those tricks of the trade - too fast being forgotten.

Seems what life would be like - if all us here
Had no computers or markets to play with, or no Kitco .
Sort of sounds Y2kish.

Imagine RJ, if there were no markets - he'd have to write his book.
And Nick@C would have to find a new way to quadruple his excesses.
And Aurator alas would slowly slip into the sea.
John would have to find a new country.
And would we all be happy?

What a blessing to see life as we experience it.

No offence taken no given.
I've still got another 3 Blue dress poems waiting for a quiet night.

That was during the greatest boom in equity markets.
Think they're going to do as well over the next few years.
Me I'd rather hold the physical.

Send us an email

Distant thoughts from downunder...
Perhaps what this site needs is a moderator??
Have seen many other sites where they work well.
One can never squash all the drivel
But a word in time goes a long way.

Perchance this latest fruit-fight
Could have been quelled/felled at it's beginning.
By a simple desist and decease notice at the beginning.

T'would have been more pleasant.
Not to have such garbage stored for eons admidst our cyber-space.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:47 - ID#343259)
@Cage Rattler, 404
Cage Rattler: My take on the liklihood of cash withdrawals was because 1 ) the ATM might not work. Lots of folks keep cash low, and hit the ATM fairly often. If the ATM wasn't working, and the lines were *long* at the banks, and money was being rationed, then, maybe you'd want to get a little stash ahead; 2 ) If there are infrastructure problems, credit card clearings might have problems, checks might not transport or clear, and balances might be whacko. In that case non-traditional sources of supplies of needed items ( food, fuel, emergency needs, etc ) might not want to take a check. Cash would be king. Better than gold. If you've ever been in a strange country, where your money is no good, your credit card doesn't function in the machine ( for whatever reason ) , and you are cut off from your supply line to cash, just put yourself in that frame of mind, and determine how much you'll need. Again, foregoing is just my take. Just because I am CompGeek, does not make me a social scientist, or even a good judge of anything human :- ) . This is what I think tho.

Re: 404. I think it's a good idea. Not censorship, but to realize that we are guests in someones "cyber-home", and we should be on better behavior. For some reason, we might have thought that this is *our* site. F* went around the bend. Few would disagree I think. In the same way that Bart has a 10 day "cooling off period" before you can post, he can tell someone to "take a break from posting". Send F* outside to cool off, and come back later, say 3 day suspension, first offense, etc. There has to be a balance. I support Bart in wanting to raise the quality. I am new here. My .005

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:47 - ID#156396)
Long Term Charting Packages
I use ProTA ( Mac-based ) which allows me to chart long-term data. Example of the Dow 1915 to 1998 attached.

Free Kiwi
(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:48 - ID#156396)
Long Term Charting Packages
I use ProTA ( Mac-based ) which allows me to chart long-term data. Example of the Dow 1915 to 1998 attached.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:50 - ID#287186)
Jack - yes, some of that steel likely flew over my dad on 12/07/41
He was on a destroyer in Pearl Harbor that morning.
I fully expect some of that guidance technology to fly over me on its way to Colorado Springs ( there are several good targets there: Fort Carson, USAF Academy, Peterson AFB, NORAD, and just a wee bit further downrange - the Pueblo Defense Depot. Another item from The American Spectator article was the MIRV technology China was given in order to launch the Motorola Iridium satellites - 5 to 6 per payload.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:53 - ID#284255)
Volatility escalating???
Turkey down 9.77%
Russia down 4.56%

Hong Kong up 3.8%
Thailand up 5.13%
Phillipines up 4.17%

The markets are turning themselves inside out
Trying to work out what is going on.

What's next???

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:53 - ID#257148)
Free Kiwi

ProTA? Does it do Stochastics, MAs, MACDs etc? Please advise where it can be bought. I've long looked for such a program on Mac.

You live on the "right" side of the Tassie? Been flooding your way?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:55 - ID#153111)

Yes inflation is the root cause when any government debt to go bad, also debt issued in currency that is being inflated will go bad, even it the company is stellar in its debt practices. GE bonds are true AAA rated bonds, but they are payable in US dollars. If the US dollar goes bad what good are dollars paid to bond holders of GE bonds? Then what good are GE bonds?

Also the term of "inflation" has been redefined. Inflation use to mean that the government was printing more money than it had gold to back it. Now that all links between gold and the US dollar have been broken the worthies in government, backed by all the brains in the US University system ( And where do they get their money from? ) have redefined inflation from "printing to much money" to the money they printing raising the price of things you buy at a store. They have been busy printing for 70 years now. Only when prices go up at the stores do they consider it "inflation". If the production of dollars goes into the financial markets, that makes people happy, ( and what can be wrong with making people happy ) and happy people can not be inflationary.

Inflation in the 70s and 80s made people feel poor as the excess money government printed went into goods and services thus causing things you needed for living to rise. Inflation in the 90s is making people feel rich as the money the government is printing is going into the stock and bond markets causing them to rise.

So is the government making people rich? No. If everyone were to try to sell their investments, you know cash their chips in, the markets would deflate like it did in 1929-32. And at some point people will have to sell, what is the point of being "rich" if you can't spend your profits? Then, as all of those dollars fled the financial markets they would seek safety from the storm of inflation by going into the real economy. That is what the hard core Kitcoites are all about, all those dollars leaving the stock market and coming home to gold!

In a nut shell, Kitcoites think of the high priced stock and bond market as a titanic lake of inflation held back by a dam ( damn ) of government lies. Once the good faith of the markets in regards to the paper currencies in the world, is shaken by something yet to come, the dam will break down and all hell will break loose and gold goes to the moon. That is what us gold-bugs are all about.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 02:58 - ID#287186)
I just hope their/our guidance systems are good enough
To not drop a warhead a hundred miles short!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:02 - ID#153111)
Free_Kiwi: Where has all the money come from.
Nice chart! But where is all that money coming from? I have volume data going back to 65, volume has exploded while stocks have gotten more expensive. That takes money. When you think of what real estate has done in appreciation also you have to wonder just where has all that money come from in our current non-inflationary enviroment?

Alan Greenspan? I thirst for knowledge!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:11 - ID#433172)
Free to do what? We are now restricted from doing most anything from where I'm at. Can't gor commercial fishing ( halibut, salmon, snapper,crab etc you name it ) unless you buy the ticket from a PERMIT HOLDER, you guessed it, regulated by the state.
Can't sleep in the park, can't park along the road, can't smoke a joint without ARG.
Somebody threatened F* with a visit by the CIA, he had friends he said. That is no can happened to mother turned them on to me, wanted me invistigated, had a jewish doctor friend who had influence....Oh, yeah Squirril but they don't amount to nothin.
When I'm talking about socialism I really mean only the ism part,I'm in favor of real social freedom. But without economic support how can those poor people on the bottom make it? Support doesn't have to mean control.Here in Alaska we get a $1000+ yearly dividend for doing nothing. No strings attached. The "have faction" in the state is persistantly trying to attach strings, but so far it's just free. The money gives freedom, it doesn't take it away.

I've got this embryo that needs a hand. Our economic system is medivial in essence, our monetary system as you suggest is in disaray.We need a political awakening ( Nadar would have been good ) that restores our options.

This business of kicking the welfare sysyem in the ass isn't going to work. It's just so work-fare ( slavery ) can be introduced, people in prison earning their bread--yeah...Hey, we can afford foodstamps, consider the alternatives.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:21 - ID#386245)
We have something in common.

My grandfather died at Pearl Harbor. He is buried at Punchbowl. He died defending my freedom to say what I want ( within the limits of propriety ) even though I wasn't even born yet. Regrettably, I never met him. I have his last letter--to my father, who was flying Lancaster bombers in the U.K./married one of Winston Churchill's secretaries--my mom ( and claim to fame ) .

Just wanted to tell you that, as I don't think I will be around too long before I get 404'd for my off-topic posts. Would love to have a beer with you sometime, though. Maybe next time I get to Co. cheers, N.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:23 - ID#153111)
George_A: About the "have nots"
I don't know your situation but here in the lower 48, most of the "have nots" also have not an education, a work ethic, or a view of the future that goes out futher than the next pay check. What right do people have to a high standard of living when they seek pleasure and avoid pain? Like the pain of going to trade school, or saving money to buy something instead of using 18% credit from a credit card? And just what kind of standard is a high standard of living. It is a standard made of rubber that changes with every new gaget that comes out. Some people are claiming a right to free Viagra! That is a slippry slope we walk on when we let politicians decide on a "standard" of living.

I'm not saying your like this but I have no more patience with the lame and lazy. Poverty serves a function in any economy. There is no better motivator!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:25 - ID#284255)
I doubt that they will be functioning well.
Let alone any of the forces.

Especially when you read this statement to the senate.

This guys speaks so logically and clearly about the risks.
Very persuasive verb and vernacular.
And you only have to read between the lines to imagine???

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:30 - ID#284255)
Millennium meltdown
( Resplice the url )
Dr Ed Yardeni, of Deutsche Bank, said he had expected the world leaders to put the millennium problem high on the agenda at the G8 summit in Birmingham in May, but called their response pathetic.

Yardeni went further and suggested that the world could be brought to the brink of nuclear war by failures in IT defence systems.

Free Kiwi
(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:38 - ID#156396)
Yes it does and many more. I consider it the best visualisation package on the market and being Mac of course has never had the Y2K problem. This is critical of course for time-based information. URL as follows:-

PS I am connected with them, just a satisfied user.

Free Kiwi
(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:45 - ID#156396)
MJPL - Where is all the money coming from??
Where is all the money coming from?

I don't know what sort of people post here but I am a fairly typical Mid-40's Kiwi living in Melbourne, a geological consultant, who must find somewhere to park his superannuation money. Where else can you put it?? Interestingly, this country ( Australia ) is just starting to build up it's ( compulsory ) super funds. We are where the USA was 10-15 years ago. Looked what happened!

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:47 - ID#24135)
heah heah..
bloomer ..
Ill drink to that

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:51 - ID#284255)
Clinton criticized for Y2K "disaster'
Read in an article today of a "geek" being offered $200k a year for a fine year tenure plus a $50k bonus.

He replied, "I want the million$$$ up front or no deal"
They thought about it and said, "Okay".

Somebody seems to be getting seriously worried.
Wonder if they have futures/options on "geeks" wages?

Seems more volatile than anything else round here.

"GEEKS" must have hearts/minds of GOLD....


Steve in TO__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:59 - ID#287337)
MJPL - The money came from . . .
the Japanese ( especially in the '80s ) who needed a place to park the surplus cash their Bubble Economy was generating; from the baby boomers who stopped buying consumer goods like they had been in the '80s and started "investing" frantically in the '90s when they realized they hadn't prepared for retirement; from the Saudis, Kuwaitis and other Middle Easterners who wanted a stable place to park their petrodollars . . . the list goes on. Dollars have been flooding into the US stock market from all over the world, but the biggest source of liquidity has been domestic, as the Boomers do their lemming-like thing again and participate blindly in the biggest stock market bubble the world has yet seen.

Some of the dollars, such as the oil revenue, were generated by real economic activity, but most the Japanese money and most of the money generated domestically was just inflationary dollars created as the Fed and the BOJ have been increasing the money supply. In both countries funding their respective deficits has been the stimulus, and from time to time the central banks have injected liquidity into the banking system as gov't competition for investment dollars threatened to dampen the economy. At times, in fact, the money supply has appeared to fall, although I think the measures have been inadequate to cope with some of the creative new ways people have been finding to use their money ( derivatives, for example. )

Anyhow, naive journalists write breathless articles about our "goldilocks economy" where governments can run deficits and central banks can print money and there is "no inflation"- because they equate inflation with the price of tangible assets- i.e. what it costs to buy milk at the store, gas at the station, and a house from your neigbour.

However, people in the know realize that the inflation is happening, as it always must when the government increases the money supply beyond any increase in the GNP. It's just that it's happening in intangibles- stocks and other investments. The boomers wanted Rolex watches and Bimmers in the Eighties, now they want SUV's and mutual fund units. The supply of SUV's is elastic- the car companies will happily make more of them as the demand grows, so the price stays relatively constant. The supply of stocks is relatively inelastic ( companies try to issue more of them when demand is up, but it's a slow process, and their current shareholders often resist ) so as the Boomers buy their stocks via the mutual funds, with the fiat dollars the government has been giving them and the real dollars they're inheriting from their parents, the price of equities has gone up apace. The inflation is in the stock market!

BTW- the supply of mutual funds for the suckers to invest in is very elastic. They increase in number apace with the supply of funds flooding the market- to the point where there are presently more mutual funds in the US than there are stocks traded on all the exchanges in the US. I find it interesting that this was also the situation prior to the 1929 crash when "Investment Trusts" ( as mutual funds were called back then ) outnumbered the equities available for them to invest in.

MJPL- I know you're really down on socialism, and I am too, but let's face it, it's the religion of the Baby Boomer generation. One thing that has me very concerned is the social upheaval that will occur when the Boomers lose anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 of their retirement savings in the coming bear market. Like true socialists everywhere they will run to Mother Government to be rescued from their folly, and to demand that they "get their retirements back." Look for lots of taxation and income redistribution to occur, probably with draconian methods of enforcement.

- Steve

(Thu Jul 02 1998 03:59 - ID#93199)
Precious Metals take the Lead
Fidelity Select Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Fidelity Select Energy & Energy Service Chart

Fidelity Select Computers, Electronics & Software Chart

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:12 - ID#318183)
JSE gold crossed 50 day Moving average
Hey disneyland did you cover your rangy/rng and drooy/dur shorts from May ?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:22 - ID#284255)
fine = five

And Turkey must have been down 9%+ the previous day.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:24 - ID#318183)
humor any one?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:27 - ID#284255)
Here's the site
How to buy more gold???.... become a programmer.
Y2K: Time for Triage
And there are very few competent, experienced people available to help you fix the old systems. I've seen elderly COBOL programmers, who retired in the 1970s after making $32,000 at their peak, brought back in 1997 as $85,000-a-year contract employees. And last month a client hired a 27-year-old who was heading one of several Y2K teams at a competitor to run that client's Y2K teams--for a five-year, no-cut contract at $200,000 a year, plus a $50,000 signing bonus. He was a nervy guy and asked for the million bucks on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. And he got what he wanted.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:34 - ID#257148)
Free Kiwi

Thanks for ProTA gold info. My order is being processed. you ( and other ) Mac users may enjoy this conversion DA. Especially useful for converting Troy oz to Tonnes, but has literally hundreds of conversions.Is a self extracting archive.

Is Pauling Hanson gonna throw you out of Stralia? Cos that's what's on our news today. Hanson don't like kiwis.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:41 - ID#318183)
more humor did I hear while watching the JSE gold go UP??

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:42 - ID#386245)
GC Q8 ( Aug. Gold ) 297.20
SI U8 ( Sep't. Silver ) 5.475
LH Q8 ( Aug. Lean Hogs ) 54575
404'd ( F* ) 1

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:42 - ID#252150)
Mozel@ the inimitable--You'll be sorely missed.
error four oh four
a great forum is no more
now sanitized pap

(Thu Jul 02 1998 04:47 - ID#433172)
You must be pschic, I am lame ( cruch lame at this point ) and getting lamer. It's an education being lame, every step hurts,every one for 50 years or so. Makes one more thoughtful about going on hikes with the boys. I'm lazy too, I found out in my mid-twenties I didn't like work. It took awhile, but I finally figured it out, money was what I was after,so instead of looking for work I looked for money. It worked.
You do learn patience if you get up against it,losing your head is disaster. I can see you have an attitude about people on the "bottom", what you say does apply to some but not everyone. The inflation you were discussing is robbing those people of the few bucks they get. A house is unreachable at a minimum wage job, dental work,doctor stuff, the deck is stacked against the poor guy on the bottom. $10.00 isn't near enough.

Thanx for the thoughts on bonds, what really is the rate of interest at which gold takes off?

The gimmes and the gottas....Gimme that..sure nough partner.. but you gotta do that. For every gimme there should be a gotta? For most of them yes, but not all....all children should eat. No?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:22 - ID#39857)
the non too circumspective one
said on hitting the wall
think grasshopper think
what your silly MACD
and PO and Elliott wave say
think. let the dagger
surface blade upright
so we might have that anchor
in the future...";"...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:34 - ID#398101)

Wednesday July 1, 1:08 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

Gold in the Official Sector

NEW YORK-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --July 1, 1998--The official launch of the European Central Bank ( ECB ) this week and
the approach of European Monetary Union ( EMU ) raise a number of interesting possibilities for gold in the official sector, but
the lack of transparency in the activities of central banks in the gold market may be misleading traders, analysts and investors.

During the last few years an increasing number of central banks -- over 70 at the latest count -- are now actively managing their
gold reserves to improve the return on their holdings.

These banks have been especially active in the gold leasing and swaps markets, and in the past two years alone Gold Fields
Mineral Services ( GFMS ) estimates that the official sector has mobilized another 1,000 tons. Two-thirds of this came last year
and brought the total of central bank gold in the market to above 3,700 tons, equivalent to the total holding of Germany's

The lack of transparency in these arrangements has created the impression that more gold has been sold than is the actual case.
IMF statistics show that total gold holdings in the official sector have declined by only 2.6% over the past three years -- from
34,781 tons at the end of 1994 to 33,860 tons at the end of 1997 -- just 921 tons.

This contrasts very strongly with the perception that there has been a wave of central bank selling. There have been a number
of high profile sales from countries such as Argentina and Australia and earlier this year the Belgians disclosed having sold 299
tons. But this latter sale was conducted through five other central banks and the IMF statistics would seem to indicate that gold
from several of the other central bank 'sales' have ended up in the other official holdings.

The Bank of Portugal is one central bank which has admitted to using gold swaps as part of its policy to secure the maximum
possible yield from its reserves, but it has not sold any gold. The Austrian central bank also makes no secret of its use of gold
swaps and recently revealed that its holdings had 'fallen' by 83.2 tons but this was not represented by outright sales. It reflected
mainly an increase of 69.7 tons in gold swaps which will return to reserves on maturity.

Gold swaps and deposits by the official sector have risen significantly in recent years to meet an increase in the demand for
liquidity in the market. This may have clouded perceptions to the point where some of these lending operations have been
misinterpreted as outright sales and have contributed to the negative market sentiment for gold.

However, there have also been a significant number of central banks adding to their gold holdings. GFMS estimates that some
19 countries purchase around 438 tons of gold in 1997. Part of this buying consisted of local mine production but the outcome
overall was that net official sector sales were around 406 tons. This was considerably less than the net 622 tons sold in 1992
and the 494 tons sold in 1993, all of which was absorbed by the market without major upheaval. Indeed, without these sales
there would have been a significant deficiency in the market as total consumption exceeded mine production by 1368 tons in
1992, 1254 tons in 1993 and 1790 tons last year.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:36 - ID#398101)
Why has my name just changed to Huang 531???

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:37 - ID#398101)
Nick@C=Huang 531
Y2K is already here

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:41 - ID#398101)
Huang 531... really Nick@C.

Don't tell anyone.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:43 - ID#386245)
Am I back?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:44 - ID#398101)
G'day Nick@C
G'day Huang.
You look just like me.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:45 - ID#386245)
G'day Huang531
You look just like me.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:48 - ID#398101)
Huang-on intrepid readers...
...while Nick@C goes to get another beer to help figure this out.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:49 - ID#386245)
Somebody Huang me...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:51 - ID#398101)
Nick@C... realize mate, that those posts of yours are a portent of things to come in Jan.,2000!?! You may just get the huang of this Y2K stuff yet!!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:52 - ID#386245)
Ever had a conversation...
...with yourself??

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:54 - ID#398101)
Gonna send the men...
...with those white suits ( with long arms that tie behind the back ) for you Nick@C.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:55 - ID#386245)
G'day Huang.
How's it Huanging, mate??

(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:58 - ID#398101)
I shall cease and desist soon, as the Merkans wake up to this wondrous 'puter world of ours. Cheers from SCHITZOPHRENICS-R-US ( Nick & Huang ) .

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:58 - ID#24135)
if you're interested ..
for lakeside/foil
Never shorted anything .. still have puts on
homestake.. Never sold rangold .. glad about that
as they up a lot .. also added avgold which up.
Bought back DD which off a little and harmony which no
change and randfontein which up. But still mostly cash.

Free Kiwi
(Thu Jul 02 1998 05:58 - ID#156396)
Thanks for the conversion DA  I have installed it and have it up and running.

Pauline Hanson?  yes, she doesnt like anybody who isnt Dinky Di. Im afraid Queenslanders are susceptable to this sort of rhetoric  witness the long rein of a well known past Premier of Queensland.

I disagree with everything the One Nation party stands for  except one ( and this is the problem with current Australian politics ) . Her party strongly supports gun ownership. I was brought up in New Zealand shooting rabbits and possums when I was a 10-13 year old. In this - so-called democratic nation  the government recently confiscated all semi-automatic firearms. This included little .22 cal semi-autos that I used to enjoy as a kid  so called plinking guns we called them. I have lawyer friends who were forced to hand in $25,000 finely engraved Italian-made semi-automatic shotguns that they used - quite legitimately in my opinion  for duck hunting and skeet. Even these guys couldnt fight the government and if you dont hand them in it is a long prison term for you.

In any strong democracy ( such as the US ) the maximum responsibility ( and accountability ) is given to the greatest number of people. They seem to have forgotten some pretty basic facts of democratic life here in Australia and Im glad the NZ government hasnt listened to the quite inaccurate and unscientific arguments of the anti-gun lobby. I personally think that I should have the Freedom ( with a big "F" ) to buy a firearm for protection, to hunt ( and fish ) , for target shooting and skeet in a democracy thank you very much.

Now you see the problem in Australian politics. Too many people dissatisfied with the present government over a number of different ( and conflicting ) political, economic and social issues.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:05 - ID#318183)
lakesoil calling collect to disneyland
well can't you buy more ? lol - I need to go on vacation - the graphs look good - don't they

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:08 - ID#333126)
one Y2k story you must read

wonder if anyone scooped me ( on Kitco, of course! ) for this one.

now how much were those generators again? how much fuel do they consume per day?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:10 - ID#386245)
I take no responsibility...
...for any of Huang531's posts!!!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:12 - ID#333126)
RJ (re: movie reviews)
it's a pity that movies here in Aussieland don't get released until they've been talked about ... well ... quite a bit by the US blokes. ( exceptions are when Aussie chicks star in them )

I've only seen the "Impact" show this week. Looking forward to Mulan ( maybe "Armageddon" too if you seriously recommend it ) from the trailers.

I hear that Disney is considering a Y2k movie. hmm... wonder how that'll affect Mr. Joe Public.

uh-oh. that's another can 'o worms.

where's that tequila?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:16 - ID#333126)
feeling schizophrenic today, Nick@C?

oh well.

hey. i took long looks at some of the Au penny stocks ( some of which you recommended ) ... and the idea of buying "squillions" keeps sounding better and better the more I think of it.

a toast to seeing you at some 5-star resort in the Bahamas ( or somewhere similar ) someday with profits from ... hehe ... squillions of cheap stocks.

cheers, mate ( and see someone for that multiple personality disorder )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:19 - ID#26793)
Thailand in a grim mood; leader calls for two year debt moratorium.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:22 - ID#26793)
Indonesia lurching toward economic disintegration and starvation.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:25 - ID#398101)
G'day ravenfire
Bahamas sounds good, mate. Maybe we can get Nick@C to come along too.

Wannabees are a bit slow off the mark the last couple of days. Did you see Normandy the last two days?? Rocket!!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:26 - ID#26793)
Central banks replacing gold with U.S. Treasury bonds.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:28 - ID#252227)
There seem to have been a successful hike in silver price over night followed by unsuccessful bear
raids on gold and then silver....does anyone know of any possible news or causes???

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:30 - ID#255151)
Huang Five Three One

Nick @ C-- Just ran your new moniker ( not Monica ) through the anagram generator. Could be a coded message from Bart. Came up with "Unfit here, have gone". Please Bart, don't don't 404 Huang 531. 3-2-5 him if you must, but not 4-0-4!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:37 - ID#398101)
G'day Auric
Send Monica...err...your moniker...over to Nick@C...stress>Nick@C...stress relief only mind you. Now I hope you read my post a little while ago about ECB/gold swaps etc. Danged good post!!!

Don't believe anything Nick@C says. He is an imposter. Here it is again:

Wednesday July 1, 1:08 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

Gold in the Official Sector

NEW YORK-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --July 1, 1998--The official launch of the European Central Bank ( ECB ) this week and
the approach of European Monetary Union ( EMU ) raise a number of interesting possibilities for gold in the official sector, but
the lack of transparency in the activities of central banks in the gold market may be misleading traders, analysts and investors.

During the last few years an increasing number of central banks -- over 70 at the latest count -- are now actively managing their
gold reserves to improve the return on their holdings.

These banks have been especially active in the gold leasing and swaps markets, and in the past two years alone Gold Fields
Mineral Services ( GFMS ) estimates that the official sector has mobilized another 1,000 tons. Two-thirds of this came last year
and brought the total of central bank gold in the market to above 3,700 tons, equivalent to the total holding of Germany's

The lack of transparency in these arrangements has created the impression that more gold has been sold than is the actual case.
IMF statistics show that total gold holdings in the official sector have declined by only 2.6% over the past three years -- from
34,781 tons at the end of 1994 to 33,860 tons at the end of 1997 -- just 921 tons.

This contrasts very strongly with the perception that there has been a wave of central bank selling. There have been a number
of high profile sales from countries such as Argentina and Australia and earlier this year the Belgians disclosed having sold 299
tons. But this latter sale was conducted through five other central banks and the IMF statistics would seem to indicate that gold
from several of the other central bank 'sales' have ended up in the other official holdings.

The Bank of Portugal is one central bank which has admitted to using gold swaps as part of its policy to secure the maximum
possible yield from its reserves, but it has not sold any gold. The Austrian central bank also makes no secret of its use of gold
swaps and recently revealed that its holdings had 'fallen' by 83.2 tons but this was not represented by outright sales. It reflected
mainly an increase of 69.7 tons in gold swaps which will return to reserves on maturity.

Gold swaps and deposits by the official sector have risen significantly in recent years to meet an increase in the demand for
liquidity in the market. This may have clouded perceptions to the point where some of these lending operations have been
misinterpreted as outright sales and have contributed to the negative market sentiment for gold.

However, there have also been a significant number of central banks adding to their gold holdings. GFMS estimates that some
19 countries purchase around 438 tons of gold in 1997. Part of this buying consisted of local mine production but the outcome
overall was that net official sector sales were around 406 tons. This was considerably less than the net 622 tons sold in 1992
and the 494 tons sold in 1993, all of which was absorbed by the market without major upheaval. Indeed, without these sales
there would have been a significant deficiency in the market as total consumption exceeded mine production by 1368 tons in
1992, 1254 tons in 1993 and 1790 tons last year.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:46 - ID#398101)
Gold 531... 1999.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:54 - ID#255151)
Huang @ C

And a fine post it was, lad! After reading Kitco for about 18 months, I probably know more about Gold than 99.999% of the world's population. But those IDIOTS in stocks and bonds have left me in their dust! Not to worry though, mate. $30,000 here we come! Off to bed now, got to get up at noon to go to work. Early to bed, early to rise...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 06:55 - ID#93232)
I heard a rumor on the net that the Pentagon, along with the White House,
suspects an Iraqi radar site has been deployed on Capitol Hill and that
they might be considering a pre-emptive strike around the end of July.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:18 - ID#35571)
See how that correlates to the moves in the yen/dollar over night:

The dollar/yen surged to hit a high of 139.43 in Tokyo afternoon trading,
from early trading levels of around 138, on wire service reports that the
bridge bank draft does not mention a tax cut.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:22 - ID#29048)
Gold and Silver are down:
August gold down 1.80
September silver down 2.5 cents

(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:22 - ID#35571)
Thursday haiku and haiku haiku
Still, the sunrise clear.
Still, the wind is not yet here.
Still, I stand and stare.

Five, seven, and five.
The total of seventeen,
makes haiku like this.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:28 - ID#354133)
This was sent to me... a Taiwanese-American. She has a sense of humor about her heritage. "In honor of Clinton trip to Mainland... translation for your"
Are you harboring a Fugitive? HU YU HAI DING?
Approach me KUM HIA
Stupid DUM GAI
Small horse TAI NI PO NI
Prices are too high here NO BAI DAM TING
Miami vacationing agreed with you YA MAI TI TAN I
bumped into a coffee table AI BANG MAI NI
Have you considered a face lift? CHIN TU FAT
You trying to save electricity? WAI SO DIM?
Inquiry to determine if bus is due HAO LONG WEI TING?
Unauthorized execution LIN CHING
Plaything belonging to ancient emperor MING TOY
You're blowing your diet WAI YU MUN CHING?
Keep out of pond NOH WEI DING
Tow-Away zone NO PAH KING
Don't you know anything by Cole Porter? WAI YU SING DUM SONG?
You are not very bright YU SO DUM
I have a press pass AI NO PEI
I do not deserve the death penalty WAI HANG MI?
How about staying awhile? WAI GO NAO?
Our meeting was for next Thursday WAI YU KUM NAO?
You're suffering from chronic halitosis YU BAI SEN SEN NAO
They are approaching HIA DEI KUM
Remain out of sight LEI LO
Cleaning automobile WA SHING KAH
Premature infant TAI NI BEI BI
Cigarettes are hazardous to health NO TSMO KING
Did someone fertilize the field? HU FLUNG DUNG?
Your body odor is offensive SHU MAN GO
Midnight Television Program LEI TSHO

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:35 - ID#24135)
for lakefish
do you really think so .. ?

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 07:43 - ID#24135)
Rule Number One ..
For Jaakko
Dollar stronger .. makes gold/silver
go down usually ..

(Thu Jul 02 1998 08:03 - ID#35571)
Gold, the Euro, the Dollar.....
Currencies are like a pack of wild dogs, there can be only one alpha leader. Stabilty of the economy, costs of transactions, ease of transactions and other factors determine the prime against which the others are measured. The dollar has been the leader of the pack for some time now having displaced gold, silver, the pound sterling and other contenders. Well, there is a new dog coming and there will come the neccesary establishment of pecking order.

Proponents of the dollar have a certain vested interest in building the strength of the dollar for it's coming contest. This strong dollar has come at the expense of various other members of the pack. The most notable being the asian currencies, but others have not escaped unscathed.

Now, having somewhat overdone things, there is a certain current of interest in easing the dollars strength or at least bolstering the strength of some of the most hard hit casualties.

This all comes as we approach the millenium and it's attendant "Y2K" concerns.

As we spiral in toward the center of the maelstrom, the waters will become very rough and volatile. It may be that one will have to jump from ship to sinking ship or that perhaps gold and silver will provide sturdy life boats. For now we wait and watch, yes? But do not watch complacently.

As background I have extracted some quotes from one of Donalds postings, Thank you Donald:

``If one is looking for a trend in central bank reserve behavior, the trend is simply to replace gold with U.S. Treasury bonds, with Japanese government bonds and with various European bonds,'' said Selig Sechzer, international economist at Alliance Capital Management.

``Central banks don't want to hold it because of the somewhat disinflationary world where commodity prices are losing value relative to paper,'' said Alan Ruskin, research director at 4Cast Inc.

``The dollar will at least be a solid currency, to the extent it is going to be part of a country with low inflation, which is a key element in terms of preservation of long-term value,'' said Ruskin. ``That in itself is going to slow the euro's progress in terms of taking over for the dollar in all sorts of spheres.''

``We highly doubt that Eurocrats would include gold as a core reserve asset in the ECB and then risk undermining the euro's credibility by allowing wide-scale disposals of gold by member countries,'' the firm wrote.

``The relevant thing for the first three years, or the first five years, is how credible the ( European ) central bank is and whether the euro is associated with improved economic performance and so on,'' said Chris Iggo, chief economist at Barclays Capital Group.

``The dollar is still the first-choice medium of exchange,'' he said. ``Commodities are still priced in dollars and so on and I can't see that changing in the near term.''

So, what will happen as the US weakens and the Euro attempts to take over as pack leader? If inflationary battles among the paper currencies should come to be there will no longer be the motivation for the central banks to hold non-commodity based reserves, and every reason to do otherwise....

There is also the problem of the oil producing countries. One might think that they would welcome any trends that would raise the price of oil, but one has to realise that an inflationary rise in the number of dollars required to buy a barrel of oil means nothing if the buying power of those dollars diminishes correspondingly. In fact, those holding unspent reserves of dollars would be losing substantially.

Right now the focus is on this yen/dollar thing, but that is a minor issue and as the millenium draws near the true issues will become much more clear. Get your programs folks and watch the drama, all the world is a stage and this is true theater on it's grandest scale.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 08:04 - ID#252391)
are we surprise
Japanese yen rallies into announcement then fails on the news. It's so pat it is almost suspicious.

Now we see if gold can hold 292 and silver 5.25. Next week could be difficult and all the positive of the recent days dashed.

What's new.

We'll all be so certain that gold can't hold a rally that will never be on board for the ride.

South African golds up 8%. Rand at 6.26 to the buck - gosh I remeber when it was 5 to one.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 08:13 - ID#29048)
Japanese fail to heed the market
The market expected much more than the Japanese government provided. The reaction was immediate as the yen tanked, gold followed suit and now the globex indicates a down open on wall street. All that's missing is a replay of last years anouncement of a big cb gold sale. Perhaps the Dutch?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 08:48 - ID#35571)
Make that two days in July

(Thu Jul 02 1998 08:54 - ID#35571)
Hey! Y'all Yen bars out there!
Don't get carried away and forget ol' man Rubins still out there with his intervention shotgun locked and loaded...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:04 - ID#36156)
Testing, testing, testing.
( hmm, no 404 here. )

( whew! )

( go gold )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:05 - ID#43185)
No charts either.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:12 - ID#26793)
Morning gold news from London

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:14 - ID#43185)
Black thursday?
The market is at a point of minimum stability facing the Fourth of July weekend, having finished a minor sucker rally, facing slowing earnings, facing asian currency instabilities, and now this dissapointment before the open from the land of the rising sun. This could easily be a day to remember.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:16 - ID#36156)
( don nee' no steenking charts...Oops, was that a bad word? )

These days, the charts seemed biased in a singular direction anyway.

Somebody wake me up when this bear goes into hibernation, will ya?

HenryD ( What's in the wake of this Golden slumber? )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:16 - ID#317193)
Test...404...obviously I have not been a real bad boy yet...yet...yet...
F*...see if you can post. Poorboys, LGB, James can you folks post?

Tom yettobe404'dandbanished

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:17 - ID#354133)
Whoops, sorry Bart & Kitco....
....posted the Oriental translation bit before having read the 404 warning.
The owner of the site has the where-with-all to implement the "Golden Rule" - he who has the gold rules. Your ARE the man. I helped run a web site for awhile and I know what a pain it was - not to mention a financial burden at times. We had to deal with loonies sometimes. For the most part, we let the food-fights and free-for-alls run their courses. Only stepped in when threats of physical violence were made. The worst offenders, however, were the pseudo-experts who constantly posted "expertise", sought free advertising for their wares, companies, web sites, etc., i.e., wasting bandwidth. ( Kitco has had its share of these locusts... ) Our site was by no means as intellectual as Kitco. But with ANY website, you have to deal with all levels of society and personalities - good and bad. We finally let the website go not because of these issues, but due to constraints on our time - job changes, family, etc. I admire your site because you are your own corporate sponsor and have been very liberal with your posters. They can't beat the price. I submit that if the detractors don't like your site, let them start their own. I challenge them to do so. Any entrepreneurial souls out there? Having said that, I'll probably be the first one to get 404-ed. What does national defense & military capability have to do with strategic metals anyway? You da man, Mr. Kitner. Thank you and good night...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:21 - ID#43185)
We'll be glad to wake you when the bear has gone away, if we can only get some updates to see where he is. Were flying blind here. And just when the clouds get the darkest.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:23 - ID#39862)
100 reasons...............

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:23 - ID#434108)
gunrunner @ 07:28
Thanks for some great laughs,
I needed that/them... this...
another morning ....waking up to
of a world ruled by ( was it Gollum's ) dog-currencies

I think there were a couple lines there, in your
friend's humorous translations...that might be combined:
some thing about 'fertilizing fields' & 'Washington'...
perhaps another poem in the making .....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:30 - ID#434108)
gunnrunner's 09:17
I ditto that;
I tried to say the same thing - express my endorsement of
& appreciation for - Bart Kitner;
in a Monday, 6/29 post of mine.

That was one day.... when the "locusts & slingers"
were really getting out of hand.....
abusing this wonderful opportunity, and privilege,
we all get to participate in, at BK's kitco.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:30 - ID#284255)
Anyone concerned Y2k???
Interesting and diverse email group.

At bottom of page.

The leader of this group rated page 1 of USA Today - today.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:36 - ID#45173)
All The World's a Stage
And I plan to be all over it as the drama unfolds.

I start my new job Tues. I can hardly wait! I switched jobs for five reasons:
1 ) the outfit I was working for was going to need at least one more year of VC money before getting sufficient traction to run on its own revenue. When the equity markets tank within the next year, VC capital will evaporate and I'll be out looking for a job anyway.
2 ) I say, get going while the going's good. This job will earn me more money now so I can put it away and build my reserves for the future -- held in gold and silver, or course. Also, the type of techology is as recession-proof as you can get. The ROI for most applications of the technology averages three months.
3 ) I have a chubby for the technology -- speech regognition, natural language processing, language translation. After 30 years of development, the stuff finally works and it'll change everything.
4 ) Promotion.
5 ) Worldwide responsibility that gets me out into the great, roiling mass of humanity on our fine planet during this once-in-a-lifetime period of transition.

I plan to be all over the US, Asia and Europe, and the Middle East over the next two years -- well, until Dec. 1999, anyway. Air travel after that might be very tedious. My first trip is to Belgium. I'll brush up on my HTS to refine my reporting style as I post to my cohorts here at Kitco. Wish me luck!


(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:36 - ID#434108)
y2k - 4 you 'bugs' interested in the millennium bug

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:42 - ID#434108)
CBS Market Watch's futures prices
Updates periodically/delayed quotes/can't vouch for their accuracy,
but they're sincere, & the price is right; they have some good
editorials, and 'market-wrap-ups, too, from time-to-time.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:45 - ID#45173)
Donald's post
``Central banks don't want to hold it because of the somewhat disinflationary world where commodity prices are losing value relative to paper,'' said Alan Ruskin, research director at 4Cast Inc.

Deflationary world? Hmmmmm. That doesn't sound Keynsian-happy. And if CBs don't hold gold when commodity prices are losing value relative to paper, logic says they will hold gold when commodity prices are gaining value relative to paper, or when they anticipate that commodity prices will gain value relative to paper.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:48 - ID#434108)
EJ going to Belgium
Good luck on new job;
and when you get to Europe, do a litlle 'sleuthing'/espionage
for us, on "secret deals" among the Euro-partners,
for their clandestine, gradual return to gold-backing &
-convertibility.... for the new Euro-currency.

In return for your efforts & revelations, I am confiddent
we kitcoites will unanimously award you:

"Metal-Man of the Millennium" !?!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:53 - ID#45173)
Gollum: Paul got home late last night
He agrees with you, said today's a dark day for the DOW. Usually this makes him happy but he sounded grim. A major drop today, followed by an even bigger drop Monday.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 09:56 - ID#35571)

Wow, what a neat new job. You'll have to get a laptop with a modem so you can keep in touch with everything. Gee, you might even be able to use the inflight phone. Just don't schedule any flights that will be in the air anywhere near New Year's day 2000.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:01 - ID#24135)
Low Cost Mine .. Dbn-deep
To all
Rand falling freely .. at 6.3 to dollar .. Dbn-deeps
costs were down to about $300 when the rand was 4.6.
Now they are 300 *4.6/6.3 = 215 $/oz .. Now that what
I call a low cost mine ... PLUS they are on a big cost
reduction program.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:01 - ID#35571)

The market is starting off kind of interesting. Instead of a big gap that reverses during the day, it strated slightly down with a very slow descent.

Of course yesterday endied with a very strong finish, so this is a rather abrupt reversal. It will be interesting to see where things are at lunch time on the Street.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:05 - ID#434108)
JD: what's the symbol for Durb-Deep; available on Yahoo/with charts?
Is it traded U.S., in adrs'.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:11 - ID#266105)
Golden Eagle Int'l (MINE)

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:12 - ID#434108)
Durb-Deep is DROOY (-I knew that.) Here's a Yahoo chart, anyone.
Does anyone know if this is the same Durb-Deep Mine, as in the 1970's.

The late 97 early '98 pick up in volume & share price
for DROOY......appears to have been a good leading indicator/clue
of '98's early rally in gold prices.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:14 - ID#45173)
@goldfevr & Gollum: I'll do my best
I've sat next to some extraordinary folks flying business class, and I'm always surprised at what they'll tell you after you buy them a few. I'll have a DELL laptop and 56K modem. Using the inflight phone for online use has been discouraged at previous companies due to the expense. However, getting revenue in is a higher priority than saving on expenses during this ramp-up phase. The company's only a few hundred people and they've wisely taken advantage of the inflated stock market by raising $130M in a stock offering in May, on top of the $45M Microsoft invested in them earlier in the year. That'll pay for a few phone calls ; )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:14 - ID#36156)

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:15 - ID#187109)
RR is makin more cash this a.m.(US a.m.)


I'm scratching my head and wondering how I can intercept the phone conversations and make a few

away......from this manipulation.......and sell ALL silver I pisses ya off sometimes........not up or on but OFF.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:19 - ID#434108)
EJ - your new 'boss'...
I'm curious to know more of your co.
If your ok about sharing:
any url/site?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:19 - ID#43185)
Come to think of it, they disourage or prohibit the use of electronic equipment on planes in flight, don't they? It has the possibility of interfering with the navigation equipment. You probably wouldn't want to land in the middle of the ocean. Or is some equipment certified to be ok?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:26 - ID#39862)

Date: Thu Jul 02 1998 09:45
EJ ( Donald's post ) ID#45173: other words........Central Banks hold gold as a hedge against "things" going up OR down.......

Surprise, surprise..........

Central Banks DO hold gold.........

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:30 - ID#434108)
HD @ 10:14: DROOY
thank-you, anyway.
DROOY looks like it just might be a good, leveraged, low-price stock play,
WHEN the g-market turns.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:34 - ID#410114)
Dress Code
Kitco finally has a dress code.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:37 - ID#45173)
@Gollum & Goldfevr
You can't use electronic equipment up to 10,000 feet, usually about the first and last 10 - 15 min. of flight. I used to travel constantly and got really tired of it. Been itching to get back on the road, tho. The best part: hours of uninterrupted time for reading. The worst part: miss wife and friends.

Sure, I'll tell you who the company is? You'll be surprised. It's a relatively small company that does nothing but speech technology, has a $100M in annual operating revenue, and a $2.7B market cap. When you look at the charts, you're gonna wish you bought their stock in June 97 when they went public. I did about seven months ago and have been pleased.

Lernout & Hauspie
LHSPF ( Nasdaq )


(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:45 - ID#434108)
Thanks; gotta go, til later;
shoot any gold bears .... on site.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:52 - ID#284255)
Major Disaster Drill Planned for D.C. Area

Contingency plans???

(Thu Jul 02 1998 10:59 - ID#284255)
Curing the bug bite
However, Ruthven, the chairman of Ibis Business Information Services, has one bit of positive news: a side-effect of the immense millennium bug spending is that it is serving to accelerate the trend towards electronic commerce.

"It's being taken as a chance to make the next great leap forward into e-commerce," he says.

He estimates that about half the money spent on the problem has gone into upgrading computer systems and software, providing Australian business with state-of-the-art equipment to conduct e-commerce.

E-commerce also presents small businesses with an incentive to update their old systems and software.

However, Queensland University professor of computing science Paul Bailes warns that while listed companies may be able to get their own houses in order, they can still crash their computer systems if they transact electronic information with a non-compliant party.

He describes the Asia-Pacific region in general as a "walking time bomb" because of its lack of preparedness.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:01 - ID#36156)
2BR02B? - Golden Eagle Int'l (MINE)
2B; Thanks for the news article. Boy, who to believe, eh? I was in and out of MINE within a 48-hour period. Thank goodness I didn't get burned... actually made a few bucks.

I'm still tracking the stock, though. If this find pans out, it might be a good stock to get back into. I'm only concerned for the other Kitcoites that jumped in that same day that may not have gotten out ... sorta puts their stakes in limbo.

Hope this all works out for them.

HenryD ( Rocking the Golden bear to sleep. )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:10 - ID#343171)
several weeks ago I posted my warning flags about golden eagle, MINE.

no brag, just fact. always wanted to say that!

anyway the fact is you made jing, great, you may be able to again, many

made bundles on bre-x. beware, these guys are shysters.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:11 - ID#284255)
Consultant Says Euro is More Important Than Y2K
FEATURE - US multinationals seen lagging in Euro preparation
02:02 a.m. Jul 02, 1998 Eastern

By Jennifer Westhoven

NEW YORK, July 2 ( Reuters ) - With European Monetary Union rapidly approaching,
experts say many multinational U.S. firms have yet to prepare fully for the
looming competitive battle a unified European economy will bring.

On January 1, 1999, European Monetary Union ( EMU ) replaces the national
currencies of 11 European countries with a single currency, the euro. The
resulting linked economy will rival the United States as the world's biggest
free-trade single-currency region, according to Merrill Lynch.

``This is going to be a whole new playing field with larger competitors'' and a
deeper capital market, said Robert Baldoni, an Ernst & Young partner
spearheading the accounting firm's U.S.
attempts to ready its clients.

But after attending a recent conference on the topic, Baldoni said, ``I was
shocked at the number of treasurers who were not sure if if the euro was really

Ernst & Young said that of 200 multinational U.S. corporations it polled in a
survey, just 45 percent had set up teams to evaluate how the euro and the
resulting new, deeper economy would affect their bottom lines.

Of the minority that formed teams, E&Y said, only 20 percent had begun to
seriously analyse the consequences and take steps to address new opportunities.

This puts U.S. companies far behind their European counterparts, where a full 70
percent have set up teams and started to launch strikes to capitalise on the
overhaul of the monetary system.

Most important, analysts said, is for U.S. firms to take steps now to ensure
they fully participate in a market whose currency Ernst & Young expects will
govern 35 percent of all global transactions by 2002.


First and foremost is a problem faced by all companies doing business in Europe
-- how to set up computer systems to deal with the new currency.

``The euro is really quite a significant trick to look at in terms of new
applications,'' said John Downe, head of IBM's euro customer initiatives.

The transition means huge new possible revenues for Big Blue, which estimates
that between $70 and $80 billion will be spent on information technology ( IT )
systems for the euro over the next five years. Downe said IBM is working on a
number of specific euro-related products and marketing campaigns.

But the issue stretches well beyond accounting and computer systems. Many U.S.
firms may need to change their thinking if they hope to remain competitive in

``Too many people think this is an accounting problem like Y2K where some guys
sit in a backroom to make sure computers don't crash,'' said Ernst & Young
consultant Bruce Fiumara, referring to the millennium computer bomb that could
occur when the date changes to the Year 2000.

`This goes far beyond that. If you don't do something, you are going to have
crashes in your relationships with your customers...There are going to be
winners and losers here.''

Beyond software, U.S. companies must also rethink their European strategies to
take account of several opportunities and challenges: alliances and mergers --
particularly while the dollar remains strong; greater price transparency across
the region; and restructuring to reflect a unifying economy.


Consolidation is expected to sweep Europe, especially the financial services
sector, as the euro approaches.

``M&A ( mergers and acquisitions ) is about to explode in Europe with the
consolidation, the move to the euro and the lowering of trade barriers,'' said
John Chalsty, chairamn of Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette. ``We are seizing
opportunities as rapidly as we can.''

With greater price transparency, companies will also have to rethink pricing
strategies. With lower trade barriers and one currency, stark price
discrepancies may not be tolerated by consumers who see their neighbours paying
lower prices.

``We do have some pricing issues, but they are minor,'' said Tupperware Corp.
spokeswoman Christine Hanneman, ``If we price a bit differently between
countries such as France and Germany, we now need to modify that.''

Europe is Tupperware's biggest market. Last year, Tupperware sold $546.6 million
of its plastic storage containers in Europe, about 44 percent of its $1.23
billion of sale and more than three times its U.S. sales.

Nimble companies are also reorganising their internal structures. For instance,
IBM's Downe said: ``You have to start doing things on a European basis rather
than on the traditional country-by-country basis. IBM is pursuing that and other
companies are rethinking their organisations that way.''

Still, some multinational U.S. companies said they have always treated Europe
that way. Coca-Cola headquarters its European operations in Belgium and has a
level of euro-management before breaking the area down into regions.

``Our thinking is really driven by treating the area in that way already,'' said
Mark Preisinger, spokesman for the beverage giant's greater Europe Group.

European companies that will see their currencies switching over to the euro are
Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Luxembourg, the
Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Italy.

Britain, Denmark, Sweden and Greece plan initially to maintain their own

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:18 - ID#266105)

Still a shareholder.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:28 - ID#284255)
Last year, 7 billion microchips were shipped in the United States.
Who's jumping on silver - no news or coments?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:31 - ID#36156)
CoolJing - I know, I saw your post.
You and others posted warnings over that two or three day period. I panicked as easily as I was lured by V******'s hype, and got out. Those that remain probably know what they're doing ... I'll admit I don't.

I follow most of the good advice I see here, but on occasion, I revert to greed.

HenryD ( Lullaby baby on a tree top....shhh little Goldy bear. )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:31 - ID#35571)
Attention kmart shoppers!
Silver really overshot the panic button. Wonderful opportunity to buy,buy,buy.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:32 - ID#28861)
SSC is down to 13/16 on heavy volume...if anybody still cares.
a million shares traded this morning already

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:40 - ID#187109)
I ain't touching anymore of that crap w/ a twenty foot pole...........silver will drop below five bucks......I am SELLING ALL OF MY SILVER.................... ( !!!!!!!! ) !

I am sick of it........If'n ya can't beat 'em......JOIN 'EM! short silver into the dirt like I shoulda-woulda-coulda done at 7 bucks.........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! onkers

( ) ........... ( take.a.deep.breath ) ....................

PH in LA
(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:40 - ID#225408)
PHlying PHood, PHour oh PHours, PHrauds and PHakes.
In part I offer this post as a test to see if, after the food-throwing episode, I retain posting rights.

If I do, let me ask any of the "free-speech" advocates if they think free-speech includes the right to call others "blithering idiots" or "frauds and fakes" or "liberal socialists" etc.

And if they do feel that this is a free-speech issue, wouldn't the couragous thing be to post what they think they have the right and intellectual obligation to post and then get thrown out? Instead of slinking away in advance whining about "not writing for censors" and "pablum"?

Adherence to Bart's guidlines is not censorship. It merely provides a free forum where ideas can be discussed without the tyranical censorship of food-throwing and name calling.

If "blithering idiots", "frauds and fakes" and other unsavor types do post here they should be challenged and it should be proven that they are what they are. Merely calling them names without offering proof offers nothing to the readership of this forum. It only gratifies the name-caller.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:43 - ID#35571)
Down periscope, dive!,dive!,dive!
The DOW is holding steady as the big guys are getting out of NASDAQ and the small stuff and getting into blue chips and bonds. NASDQ is taking a real beating. It looks like we are going into crash mode.

Dollar index is up. Euro is up. British pound is up. Everything else mostly down.

It's almost lunchtime on the Street.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:46 - ID#187109)
*sell HARD the rallies* my new silver chant. There is NO silver shortage and those who think so are throwing their hard earned money ..........

AWAY!............... ( $ ) Silver will come outofhtewoodworkbythetonnes........WB is wrong this time......uhhuhuhhuhuhhuh. ( ! ) Buy Wells Fargo and Coke by the wheelbarrow full!!!!!!


how's that for my 'best of' F*?? ;- )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:46 - ID#35571)
That's the safest thing I guess. Of course there is a good hedge position of shorting gold and going long on silver. Once things settle down they should close ranks.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:51 - ID#35571)
The 1:00 goblin
This going to be one of the most schizophrenic goblins ever seen. In just minutes the London market is going to close as we face the Fourth of July weekend. This may be the 12:05 goblin and he's loaded for bear!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:55 - ID#35571)
Hecla hit a low of 5 and is coming back up. What drama! What action! What fireworks!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 11:57 - ID#57232)
Sleepy US markets today. Thoughts about interest rates
All: Have you noticed that 30 yr US treasuries interest rates have been dropping over that last few weeks? Now at 5.6%. With short term treasuries at 5.0% there is little incentive to buy long term treasuries over short term ones. I think this is bad for the banker types -- unless most of their income is from much higher credit card interest. Surprising how many Americans are willing to pay 17% interest.

And -- yesterday the FED kept rates the same. One could actually argue that US interest rates are actually too high, given the deflationary winds passing around the globe. How will the Yen compete?

On the other hand, I suspect the FED directors are worried about inflation looming given the strikes or threat of strikes. My guess is that if inflation returns to the US, it will not be due to a wage/price spiral. It will be a commodity price crunch, oil crisis, or a dollar crisis.

Why do I have a sense of foreboding? I wish I knew what to expect -- inflation -- or deflation? Will the US dollar continue to rise into the stratosphere as an island of stability? Will real estate continue to rise for a time due to dropping interest rates?

Perhaps the musical chairs analogy still applies, with the US markets the last to fall -- just like what happened in 1929.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:03 - ID#35571)
Sleepy on the DOW, but panic on the NASDAQ express. Gold and ilver are just a bit chaotic too.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:11 - ID#335190)
Friend's of labour/worker/citizen have spoken@Government/corporation/union CONTROL EH! We the people
U.S. Labor chief urges GM, union to settle strike

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - U.S. Labor Secretary Alexis Herman said on Thursday said she has spoken with both parties in the United Auto Workers strike against General Motors Corp. and urged them to try to reach agreement.

"I have been in touch with both parties and continue to urge them to settle their differences," Herman said in a conference call with reporters to discuss the latest employment figures. She expressed concern that if the strike dragged on, it could weaken the job market in the factory sector.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:12 - ID#57232)
Nasdaq shot up too fast last few days, IMHO
Gollum: Thanks for alerting me. Since only the NASDAQ is down, this may be due to the fact that there is profit taking from its overly rapid rise.

But -- trouble with the dollar/yen ratio might presage big trouble. Japan honeymoon over already?

Also, if silver does not move up in the next week or two, that will be a very bad sign. We should be continuing our silver rally. We do have to consider the possibility that deflation, not inflation is dominant. I will also be watching the commodity price indices like a hawk.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:16 - ID#377196)
To Paraphrase "ANOTHER"
On rereading Another's comments of June 29 th. I find the most important
part is his comment as to why this "game of currencies" has gone on so
long. It is because the asset inflation has hidden the true value of
the hugh amount of US$ that has been produced. That, if and when this
money tries to convert itself into "real" things it's true value will
reveal itself. How true this is. Nobody complains about rising stock
prices. This is not even considered to be inflation much less inflationary! But it is in the true sense just a switch from one piece
of paper to another piece of paper. What a great way for the federal
reserve first to hide the true value of the fiat dollar but then to
destroy so many dollars when they finally decide to end the party.

The true value of money is only in what you can purchase that is real
over time. With gold stocks, there is gold in the ground which will
remain valuable for centuries. Can the same be said of any companies'
products? High tech is the most vulnerable of all. Many products
become obsolete in a matter of months. Poof!!!

So the game of currencies will go on until people start selling dollars
in the form of stocks to purchase real goods in the form of houses, cars,
etc. etc. Then when prices rise and there are more dollars that people
have than they want to spend on "things" they will start to put the balance into gold and silver. But not before that.

But the mining shares are so depressed that even a small move of $75
in gold will move these shares a great deal more.

I wonder when this shift is going to take place. It could be accelerated
by an outside event. The spring seems to be wound very tight.

Thanks GD

PS. Good going Bart. Food fights are one thing but the fights of a few days ago were childish, and disruptive.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:16 - ID#335190)
FOCUS-U.S. May factory orders weaken, shipments drop

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - New orders received by U.S. factories weakened across the board in May and shipments dropped again, the Commerce Department said Thursday, as the nation's industrial sector faltered under the drag of weakening Asian exports and overstocked inventories.

But others -- especially developing recessions in crisis-racked Asia but also a huge buildup in first-quarter domestic inventories -- are expected to be a lingering burden for U.S. industry that will slow overall economic growth in the second half of the year.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:18 - ID#35571)
They're about to pull the plug on the DOW too. Everyones getting ready to go home for the weekend. Lots feel safer in cash and bonds for the big three days. Thar she goes!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:18 - ID#410198)
PH IN LA .....every now again I can agree with a liberal socialist,the trash talkers only really
arrived after Bart shut down that other page.......this to will pass...want to lock horns again ?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:22 - ID#347235)
Communist News Network Retraction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CNN Has just completely retracted the story about Army use of Sarin Gas In Viet Nam!!!!!!! Remember I said they were a bunch of slime bags
and Peter Arnett is the biggest liar in the media?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:22 - ID#335190)
Washington Based lending agency @ DEMANDS USofA's TAXPAYER'S WEALTH - Corp WELFARE EH!
ANALYSIS-IMF wants the next bailout to be its own

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - One year and three record-breaking rescue packages into Asia's financial crisis, it is the International Monetary Fund that is in need of the next bailout.

The Washington-based lending agency says its cash reserves have been depleted to dangerously low levels since the Thai baht crashed on July 2, 1997, and it rushed multibillion-dollar loans to Thailand, South Korea and Indonesia.

Asian, Russian and other emerging markets are still under pressure, and the IMF is asking for an immediate cash injection from the United States, its largest shareholder, and from other rich member states.

Without the financial boost, the IMF says its usable resources would be just $10 billion to $15 billion, barely enough to respond to Russia let alone other countries in crisis.

"If we run out of money, this would worsen a very unstable global situation and mean a serious danger for the world economy," IMF Managing Director Michel Camdessus told Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper this week.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:22 - ID#347235)
Communist News Network Retraction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CNN Has just completely retracted the story about Army use of Sarin Gas In Viet Nam!!!!!!! Remember I said they were a bunch of slime bags
and Peter Arnett is the biggest liar in the media?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:25 - ID#252150)
TYoung@Counting my blessings
Mighty Olympics
Shimmering Juan de Fuca
Who cares about gold

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:26 - ID#410198)
Retired Soldier...let see Peter RED Arnett gets his marching orders....don't hold your breath..

Steve - Perth__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:26 - ID#284170)
The Privateer Gold Comparison Charts
Gold in Aussie prices heading up....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:27 - ID#335190)
Fed members in May voted 10-2 on steady policy

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Federal Reserve policy-makers voted 10 to 2 in May to keep official U.S. interest rates steady, partly for fear a rate rise would have "outsized effects" on sensitive Asian financial markets.

But minutes of the May 19 meeting of the Federal Open Market Committee released Thursday said members voted to keep a bias toward tightening and indicated the decision against an immediate rate rise was not an easy one.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:33 - ID#284255)
Copper hitting new lows...
The Gold Pavilion
Reflected on still water
Such cool beauty there.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:48 - ID#212323) "Atta boy!" is warranted for your golden effort...

PH in LA
(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:53 - ID#225408)

The label "liberal socialist" which has been applied to me has never been santioned by me. It has always been an unsubstantiated rumor-of-last-resort applied in frustration by the reactionary conservative rocket scientists, name-callers and voice-of-reason advocates who shall, under Bart's new policy, remain nameless.

I hope I never refuse to lock horns with anyone on any issue or debate to which I feel I can offer something original that needs articulating. If that be either liberal or socialist, so be it. In my book, it is neither.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:59 - ID#252150)
Just reported on CNBC@Netscape & Yahoo to merge.
New Co. to be named Netanyahoo.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 12:59 - ID#210235)
@Hi, guys
just caught up on the news. not surprised that Bart stepped in. He used to come 'round regularly, a little less lately as he's been busy. Last weekend was unique - it degenerated into physical threats. You really can't expect this to go unchecked. We've been through these shakeouts before, with very little loss of content.

A few years ago I was giving a party, and a first-time guest erupted into loud, insulting and abusive behavior. A Japanese business exec was one of the guests, and while the others sat there rather like deer in the headlights, he immediately confronted the offender. He stated with great authority that such behavior was an insult to her host and hostess, and that he wouldn't tolerate it. It was rather shocking in its intensity, but I was really proud that he respected my efforts on behalf of my guests. The rude one soon found an excuse to leave early, the party was wonderful.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:01 - ID#317193)
James....good old Fuca
Mr. de Fuca visits with some best to anticipate the visits. Yes?

Gold, never heard of the stuff. What's it used for?


(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:10 - ID#410198)
PH in LA....I wonder sometimes that you may be a closet conservative just confused living in LA can
warp the mind,I used to think like you then I moved to the country,I credit fresh air and open spaces....for my conversion....try it sometime

PH in LA
(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:13 - ID#225408)
More reality on 404.
In the interest of the open forum we have all enjoyed for so long and in defense to the free speech advocates, I humbly point out that a mechanism does still exist for rehabilitation of posters who receive the dreadded 404 message.

Anyone who feels that they have been unfairly, and without warrent, excluded can always appeal ( with documentation, of course ) to Bart via e-mail. Their arguments can also be brought before the readership through other posters via private e-mail, etc. An unfairly disciplined poster, or one who would sincerely like to be rehabilitated would surely be re-accepted by all. But not via a popularity poll! No! Only through rational discourse and considered argument...recourses that should have been employed from the start.

F*, LGB, Hep, Heavy Hitter et all. Are you listening?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:16 - ID#252150)
EJ@Congratulations on job in Belgium. If you like real beer & real french fries
you will be in paradise. I got spoiled by the frites over there, ( they eat them with mayonaisse ) & have never really enjoyed N. American fries for years. In the average cafe you will have a choice of dozens ( sometimes over 100 beers ) made by trappist monks. Truly the nectar of the Gods. Brussels has 1 of the best City squares in the world. Brugel is the Venice of the north, even prettier IMO.

Now, If it was'nt for all those dam*ed bureacrats in Brussels, plotting to desroy the value of AU....Still, I envy you.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:21 - ID#35571)
Does frites and mayonaise have any cholesterol content?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:21 - ID#431366)
George, MJPL, n ERLE RE us low-capital have not folk
There are two kinds of us - those who are responsible and those who are not.
We responsible ones may not have much because we do not earn much - for various reasons. We may not be able to afford vcrs, dining out, new cars, RVs, a house, spouse, kids, insurance, pension plans, stocks and Gold. We live within our means and save what we can for rainy days. We may not be married and dont have kids - we realize we cant afford them. We may not ski, climb rocks or drive fast cars because we can not afford to get hurt. We realize that tobacco, alcohol, television, drugs and similar vices sap our meager incomes, make us stupid, and waste our time. We may indulge in a little nip once in a while and watch a few special programs but these vices do not dominate our lives. We have more important things to do - such as reading, working, walking, and discussing interesting subjects with intelligent people ( such as here ) . We are never bored - our minds are abuzz with too many ideas. Yes we are not using our minds to the fullest to earn lots of money or enhance the species or the planet. Perhaps we have found that doing so costs us more than it is worth to us. We may have personalities that just dont value the same goals that others have - thus we may not fit with what others expect of us.

Then there are the irresponsible ones. They do not realize they can not afford marriage and kids and thus burden society with their ill-raised progeny. The complain about not having enough money while they spend what little they have on booze, smokes or drugs. They permit themselves to be stupified by alcohol, TV and mindless spectator sports. They drift from job to job because they cant show up on time or do an honest days work. If they do fall into a well-paying job they squander their pay on eating & drinking out and buying atvs, tvs, rvs, and other toys and games. They buy more than they can afford and pay 20% interest forever while making minimum payments. They indulge in risky behavior because they assume others will pick up after them, raise their kids, pay their medical bills, ad infinitum.

I may be cold-blooded and hard-hearted but the latter group can die of exposure and starvation for all I care. The quickest way to eliminate irresponsible behavior and the values that beget it is to let the full cost of such behavior come down on those who engage in it. Same goes for their kids. Too often they are prenatally or postnatally crippled with the habits and values of their parents. Saving them so they can procreate yet more of the same only pulls the rest of us down with an ever growing burden of those who are not responsible enough to take care of themselves. An exception can be made for those infants whose lives can be rescued early enough to head off a decent into such burdensome behavior. We may be able to save a few but we must be wary of providing incentives for even more strays to be produced because others will take care of them.

What does this all have to do with Gold and Silver? Getting the latter group off the backs of the former group permits the former group to have a little extra to invest in Gold and Silver and the means ( education, equipment, and training ) to buy more. It also gives the former group incentive to work harder for they then receive nearly all the benefits of the effort. As it stands now - why work harder just to help pay for other peoples irresponsible habits and kids? Why save for the future and invest in Gold or Silver when the irresponsible people and the bums they vote into power will just take it from you and squander it anyway - or, in Klintons case, permit other individuals, organizations or countries to draw and quarter you and feed your bones to the dogs ( of war ) .

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:26 - ID#347235)
Maybe if enough of us e-mail Communist News Network with that suggestion it WILL happen, I already have, in fact I called them again on MY dime to tell them so. Shalom.

Apologies to all and Bart for losing my cool when F* attacked me I should have ignored him, I will not do the likes of it again.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:26 - ID#347235)
Maybe if enough of us e-mail Communist News Network with that suggestion it WILL happen, I already have, in fact I called them again on MY dime to tell them so. Shalom.

Apologies to all and Bart for losing my cool when F* attacked me I should have ignored him, I will not do the likes of it again.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:29 - ID#252150)
John D.@I agree that the S.A. mines are benefitting from the devaluation
of the Rand, but don't think that the exchange rate losses are completely reflected in U.S. listed SA AU stocks. Do you?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:29 - ID#347235)
Doouble postings
I am having trouble with my server sorry

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:31 - ID#286230)
CNN has lots of Detractors and new Competition is Planned

The ministers also agreed to form a working group to look at the
possibility of an international news network to rival CNN, which is shown
around the world but broadcasts a distinctly U.S. perspective.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:35 - ID#255217)
I may not agree with you on your perception of G&S for use as money, but I sure DO agree with just about everything you said in your last post. I wish more people thought like that. BTW, I'm not concerned about G&S eventually reclaiming their role in our monetary system. Natural laws have a way of restablishing equilibrium after excessive unnatural forces distort their environment.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:38 - ID#252150)
Gollum@Cholesterol----who cares?
The average European has a much healthier diet than the vast majority of N. Americans that more than mitigates their cholesterol intake. Besides, if they drink more than 3 litres of beer per day & 1 btl of red wine, they end up with perilously low cholesterol levels & have to increase their intake of frites.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:38 - ID#45173)
@James & Gollum
Thx for the well-wishes. I'll chug a Belgian brew for you.

Mayo is good for the soul. Everything in moderation, including moderation.

Paul just ran out, growling and cursing like crazy. Wonder what he's up to?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:42 - ID#410198)
Retired Soldier....the good folks at Free Republic let them have it......big time..

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:44 - ID#335190)
Doom & Gloom @ Thailand PRIVATE THINK-TANK
Thailand sees more pain a year into crisis

BANGKOK, Thailand ( Reuters ) - Thais took a grim view of their future on Thursday as they marked the first anniversary of the float of their currency, which triggered Asia's current economic crisis.

"On this anniversary, let's not lose hope. Whatever the hardship lying ahead, we will overcome it," he said, breaking away from his morning summary of World Cup soccer matches.

But for ordinary Thais, the social cost of the crisis is beginning to hit home.

Thousands of firms have been driven out of business. Unemployment is estimated to have doubled to around 2.7 million, or 6 percent of the workforce, analysts say.

The government projects the economy will contract 4.0 to 5.5 percent this year. Private analysts forecast negative growth of as much as 8 percent.

"The immediate terrain ahead is still downhill. I don't see much level ground," said Ammar Siamwalla, senior director of private think-tank Thailand Development Research Institute.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:50 - ID#335190)
The Voice of the people IS @ Counterproductive What is good for corp. is good for the citizen eh!
State Dept speaks against sanctions on Swiss

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The U.S. State Department on Thursday said the sanctions that U.S. states and cities are proposing to slap on Swiss banks would be "unjustified, unwarranted and counterproductive".

"They will prevent our nation from speaking with one voice on matters of foreign policy, they will call into question the openness of our financial markets and they may lead to greater inflexibility on the part of the Swiss institutions," department spokesman James Rubin said.

Big Time Tom
(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:52 - ID#212320)
The WDEPY merger

Now that WDEPY has merged with Anglogold, does anyone know what the new symbol is for the shares that will be replacing WDEPY? Will shares of WDEPY be replaced with shares of ANGLY?--or will there be a new company name with a new symbol?

Thanks in advance for any relevant information.


Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:52 - ID#377196)
There is a large part of me that feels as you do. I have never felt part of this society from the day I was born. It was in my early 40's
that I found out by taking the Meyers Briggs Personality Test that I
was an INFJ. That's introverted,intuitive,feeling, judging type. When I
found out that if I was in a room of 100 people I would feel alone
because INFJ's are only 1% of the papulation I was suddenly released from
feeling so separate. There was a reason!!!
Since high school I have felt that insurance as we know it in this
country is a contributor to "let the other guy pay syndrome" and to what you describe as not taking resonsibility for one's actions.
I have no answers to what one is to do about all these other people.
Nor do I know what to do about their making me pay for their mistakes.
I just pay my taxes and know that all is at it should be. In other words
while this country is going in a direction that no one can change there
are opposite forces being built up which will over throw the current
behavior. Maybe yours and my discontent is that we both can intuit these
forces long before most can. So we suffer for our society as they play,
only to try to wake them up before they bring us all down. It is a
thankless task but perhaps it is the path of the true hero:
defending and holding dear against all odds those values that should be
sacred to a society: truth, dignity, honesty, modesty, compassion and

In this we need faith. And faith is only of value when we do not know
the outcome.

Thanks. GD

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:52 - ID#255217)
Moving to the country DOES do wonders for your psyche, but you must give it time to work. I think it depends a lot on how intense your life in the city was and, of course, your predisposition. Some people actually LIKE the rat race and thrive on competition. They would probably be miserable in the country. I am not one of these. But even if your like peace and quiet and solitude; if you have lived in the city, the adjustment may take some time.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:54 - ID#335190)
USofA CITIZEN's (washington) "DEMAND" @ Japan "Bridge Bank"
Japan bridge bank seen as small step to US demands

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Japan's new efforts to rescue failing banks go a small way toward meeting Washington's hefty
demands, but U.S. analysts said Thursday they were still not sure that Tokyo was doing enough.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 13:56 - ID#45173)
Bart's enforcement of Netiquette
Bart's the editorial page editor at the Kitco newspaper. His objective is to cultivate a forum for the expression of a wide range of opinion. If he does not enforce civility then the range of opinion narrows to include only a few posters. The rest leave. So he has no choice.

To insult and threaten on the Internet where we do not face each other shows weakness. Anger is best delivered in person, where it is righteous. That's not an option here so the need to vent remains. How about we establish the protocol that when we feel the urge to get into it with someone, we go to Kitco 2 where there's no login/password requirement. This can be the Kitco Bar & Grill, and if you want to, you can "take it outside."

Apologies for the mixed metaphore.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:02 - ID#410198)
Argent....on the rare occasion that I have to go to LA,and I kid
in the air......then again being 40 plus... quite,slow,is better...NO!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:05 - ID#410198)
Lost a whole lot on that post...missing part is.......and I kid you not,you can feel the tension

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:06 - ID#335190)
GM STRIKE @ Union leadership part of Management team. (Ford "cheap labour" unsold cars)
Ford suspends Brazilian production to cut stock of unsold cars

SAO PAULO, Brazil ( AP ) -- In an effort to shrink its stock of unsold cars, Ford Motor Co.'s Brazilian subsidiary suspended production Thursday at the largest of its three assembly lines.

The assembly line will remain idle for the next seven working days "to adjust production to demand," said a statement issued by the automaker.

The country's metalworkers union says Ford has a stock of 38,000 unsold cars in its dealer network and in its yard in Sao Bernardo do Campo, the Sao Paulo industrial suburb where the automaker's plant is located.

"Ford's decision is a clear sign that the market is not reacting as automakers expected it to," said Sergio Reze, president of the National Federation of Auto Distributors. "Production far outstrips demand."

General Motors and Volkswagen said they had no plans to suspend Brazilian output. Fiat, the Italian automaker, said it would suspend production for 10 days starting July 8, but denied it was a move to shrink stocks which news reports put at 25,000 units. The company said the 10-day halt was part of its previously planned vacation shutdown.

Reze said Brazil has a total stock of at least 100,000 unsold cars. He said automakers have "flooded the market" with vehicles in an attempt to recover the heavy investments made over the last few years.

"Their expectations, however, were frustrated by wary consumers worried that the economy will suffer some kind of setback," he said.

The Brazilian auto industry's sales started dropping sharply late last year when the government introduced a series of austerity measures to counter the effects of the Asian financial crisis on the South American country.

A steep increase in excise taxes on industrial production was followed by an equally sharp rise in annual interest rates, which nearly doubled to 43.5 per cent.

In a country where about seven of every 10 cars are bought on credit, the auto industry was especially hard hit. Brazilian auto sales during the first five months of the year plummeted 25.5 per cent compared with a year earlier, while output decreased 17 per cent, according to the National Association of Vehicle Manufacturers.

Tantalus Rex
(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:11 - ID#295111)
EURO & Gold Reserves
As I had been saying...who would want to buy EUROs if the ECB did not back it up with sufficient gold reserves? I have have my doubts the EURO will survive in the long term. It needs more gold to be taken seriously....

By Alden Bentley
NEW YORK, July 1 ( Reuters ) - The euro will pose no immediate
threat to the dollar but is making gold stores obsolete, as
nations adjust external reserve holdings for European Economic
and Monetary Union ( EMU ) , economists said.
Market speculation that the euro might displace the dollar
as number one in central bank reserve stockpiles overlooks a
more timely phenomenon: gold, once the world's monetary
standard, is rapidly losing its shine, they said.
"If one is looking for a trend in central bank reserve
behavior, the trend is simply to replace gold with U.S. Treasury
bonds, with Japanese government bonds and with various European
bonds," said Selig Sechzer, international economist at Alliance
Capital Management.
Reserve tinkering before monetary union on January 1 has
increasingly marginalized gold, as have a remarkably benign
global inflation environment and weak commodity prices.
Gold hit an 18-1/2 year low of $276.50 per ounce in January
then saw a brief rally before falling back below $300, where it
has been stuck for a month. It stands more than $120 below the
six-year high set near $418 in early 1996.
"Central banks don't want to hold it because of the somewhat
disinflationary world where commodity prices are losing value
relative to paper," said Alan Ruskin, research director at 4Cast
In such an environment, gold loses favor as currencies gain
value on commodities and goods, Ruskin said. Because gold and
many commodities are chiefly priced in dollars, the buying power
of the U.S. unit has gone up the most versus other currencies.
As long as confidence in U.S. monetary policy remains high
and investors have no fear that inflation will erode
dollar-denominated holdings, central banks will continue to
favor U.S. paper over the new euro and other reserve choices, he
"The dollar will at least be a solid currency, to the extent
it is going to be part of a country with low inflation, which is
a key element in terms of preservation of long-term value," said
Ruskin. "That in itself is going to slow the euro's progress in
terms of taking over for the dollar in all sorts of spheres."

The yellow metal's fate may hinge on how the new European
Central Bank ultimately apportions it, vis a vis currencies like
the euro, dollar, and yen.
With just six months left until currency union, traders and
analysts have come to dissect every utterance from top European
bureaucrats for clues on the likely composition of the ECB's
foreign reserves.
Last month European Central Bank president Wim Duisenberg's
suggestion that gold will comprise just 10 to 15 percent of the
new bank's total reserves -- a figure well below forecasts --
highlighted gold's major vulnerability. Prices dropped $12
dollar per ounce in one week, after those remarks.
Duisenberg has said the ECB's foreign assets policy is not
yet developed. The disposition of the 11,000 tonnes of surplus
gold among individual European central banks not absorbed by the
ECB is therefore still an open question.
CIBC Oppenheimer pointed out in a June 10 research paper
that Germany, France and Italy, which as a group possess some 70
percent of Europe's gold reserves, have been stressing the
importance of gold as a reserve asset in recent months.
"We highly doubt that Eurocrats would include gold as a core
reserve asset in the ECB and then risk undermining the euro's
credibility by allowing wide-scale disposals of gold by member
countries," the firm wrote.
Analysts said the euro will become a de facto reserve
currency no matter what and should grow in importance.
Sechzer noted that after January 1 central bank hoards of
German bunds and other European assets will automatically be
replaced with euro-denominated paper. Stockpiles of German
marks, French francs and other ERM currencies will cease to be
counted as currency reserves.
"The relevant thing for the first three years, or the first
five years, is how credible the ( European ) central bank is and
whether the euro is associated with improved economic
performance and so on," said Chris Iggo, chief economist at
Barclays Capital Group.
"The dollar is still the first-choice medium of exchange,"
he said. "Commodities are still priced in dollars and so on and
I can't see that changing in the near term."

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:11 - ID#431366)
Gold Dancer and Argent - Thank you for your replies.
Gold Dancer - FWIW - I am an INTP and, to make it worse, especially while growing up, since it leads to misperceptions, persecution and thus even more withdrawn personality, intelligent enough to qualify for Mensa.

Argent - chalk up my dreams for Gold & Silver to the "N" & "P" in the above. For them to come back in "their own good time" may be too late - for me at least. Thus is why I find myself looking forward to millenium "corrections".

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:14 - ID#335190)
Trust eh! @ Corporate USofA ( This is an Example of truth, about the USofA war on drugs)
Senator seeks Justice tobacco campaign ad inquiry

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle Thursday asked Attorney General Janet Reno to open an investigation into whether five tobacco companies violated campaign finance laws.

After a month of debate, the Senate killed the landmark tobacco bill June 17 without a vote. Conservative Republicans drove a procedural stake through its heart on the grounds that it violated the budget rules.

Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat, said he wanted to draw the Justice Department's attention to a complaint filed with the Federal Election Commission by the National Center for Tobacco-Free Kids.

The complaint makes a "persuasive case," he said that the tobacco companies' fall advertising campaign was intended to influence the outcome of the federal congressional elections, not influence public policy.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:18 - ID#36156)
I'm an INTJ.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:21 - ID#253153)
Deflation is accelerating
For month's I have been suggesting that we are in a runaway deflationary
trend that can't not be altered by any politician or CB. This trend will continue until it will exaust itself. As I read many of the post's on this forum, I'm amazed that people are still expecting inflation and will not accept the idea that we are in a new era , a deflationay era. Clearly, the evidence suggest deflation. Even in the US, as economic indicators are released on a daily basis, it's becoming clear that our economy is slowing down .The bond market has been confirming it all along with yields declining. For example, today the long bond yield is at 5.59% , a new high for US treasury bonds and the lowest yield since 1982. The sooner you begin to think about deflation, the better you will be able to adapt to changing conditions without any emotional stress. People are losing their jobs, the dollar is strong , our exports are declining and imports are rising . Gold, tradionally has always been a good hedge against deflation and will rise AFTER we had a big market decline. Interest rates and commodities will continue to decline as the economy decline. These are the long term trends.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:22 - ID#377196)
Just want you to know that my best woman friend is an INTP. She is
the smartest person I know and I just love her. Great values and quite
different from most people, so she has suffered also.

She is the one in computers with a big airline. She is the one I quoted as saying that the Y2K problem will be "death by a thousand
paper cuts."

Take care and thanks, GD

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:30 - ID#350179)
404 test
INTJ once, then INTP a year later...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:32 - ID#333127)
I find it hard to believe the Euro will be backed by so many dollars and such a small amt. of gold. I;m still hopeful they will have a larger than 10-15% gold backing if they are serious. Havn't seen any new % as to gold backing so I assume #'s have not changed. I never would have thought the Europeans would trust the dollar to this extent, shows how much I know.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:34 - ID#290287)
I may be wrong but I think passwords are being instituted at K2.

Kitco Bar & Grill is a different kind of place, it's no fun to fight there so no one does it.

No simple solutions IMO.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:35 - ID#242325)
Signs of the Times
JP: Still waiting for that big stock market drop.

Sign in our local Washingtom Mutual Savings Bank -- "We won't charge you to talk to our tellers. Even though they are worth it."

Previous generations of Americans would have been outraged at being charged to talk to tellers or withdraw funds from their own accounts. Just another sign of how far the bottom line uber alles mentality has gone.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:37 - ID#377196)
Lots of Introverted Intuitives
Just as I expected on this site. The introverted intuitive sees
long before others the problems which are about to happen. So I like
others take action long before necessary. I wish I could get over being
early-like three to five years worth!

And we will have to guard against getting out too early as well.

Thanks, GD

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:40 - ID#410198)
To all my good buddys in California and yes PH in LA.....this says it all enjoy

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:41 - ID#45173)
JP: I've been reading your comments and Donald's posts
and I agree the signs of deflation are everywhere. That's why I feel I may have bought into gold too early. However, the sudden introduction of multiple destablizing events next year, especially the euro and Y2K, into a deflationary cycle may hammer the dollar at the same time and make gold the best safe haven even during an economic contraction.

Do you think AG perceives that deflation is his real battle? Are his moves consistent with an expectation of deflation, even while he speaks publically of vigilance against inflation?


(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:46 - ID#335190)
""INTJ ( introverted/intuitive/feeling/judging ) once, then INTP ( to make it worse ) a year later..."

What is this all about. I am slow obviously. I do not understand Mensa.

Much help required to understand the above.
Thanks Take Care

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:46 - ID#210235)
@Sam's right.
Spent my share of time at the KB&G. Everybody's always real friendly-like. Conversations stray all over the place, but nary a harsh word.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion people who come here to flame are just feeding weak egos. No audience at KG&B. None of the flamers ever show up, nor have they given out ICQ numbers!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:48 - ID#431366)
Argent, Fred, Aragorn III, ERLE, Haggis, Goldnboy, et al.
Tantalus Rex's 14:11 post reminds me of my July 01, 01:02 post that began:
"Likely never will any of us see gold or silver used in commonly circulating coins again - given the apathy toward the idea - even here. Eventually the CBs and BIS will do away with it altogether - they will trade paper or cyberciphers."

I do not like the CB's goals - but they seem to be coming anyway.
I want Gold in little pieces in people's pockets rather than in big bars in a government vault. I/We can hope Y2K causes that to happen.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:58 - ID#36156)
RS - I'll try again^1499089@.ee95ba4>^1499089@.ee95ba4

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:58 - ID#36156)
Retired Soldier - Sarin Retraction
Did you check out the Message Board on CNN Interactive? Lots of griping going on...^1499089@.ee95ba4>^1499089@.ee95ba4

(Thu Jul 02 1998 14:59 - ID#287186)
6pak and others interested in INTP, INTJ, etc.
Check out these sites
This last one has a personality sorter you can take to help you figure yourself out - and maybe understand Gold Dancer, MM, & Griz better

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:00 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Robnoel -- Heaven forbid that anyone refuse to obey the gestapo! What's this world coming to? Imagine people doing the same with taxes, licensing, and other unworthy-of-our-attention regulations! Maaaaaaan! Perhaps tar-and-feather time is close at hand for our nazi-minded 'legislators' and their jack-booted flunkies.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:00 - ID#36156)
Third and final try...^1478066@.ee95ba4>^1478066@.ee95ba4

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:02 - ID#36156)
Retired Soldier - Sorry.
I can't get Bart's application to accept the URL.

HenryD ( So what else is new? )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:06 - ID#350179)
It's just a personality/aptitude/self-labelling test - results are designed to shaped by your responses to a series of questions. Mood & prior exposure to the questionnaire ( or self-deceit ) can color and re-shape the profile you create. Optimally, it can be employed to give you an alternate view of your "personality". It's not mensa.

Example questions etc.
Note, I am not the author.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:13 - ID#277302)
The European will pay the heaviest price for Russia's demise.
When the levee breaks in Russia, it will make the Indonesian riots look like the Boston tea party. The uncertainty created by the Euro Central Bank with regard to its Gold reserve holdings has served to devalue Gold and by default all other commodities and helped to promote an over-exuberant rise in the American's All-Mighty Buck ( AMB ) . This continuing devaluation in commodity prices amounts to nothing less than a massive robbery of wealth from countries with resource-based economies such as Russia, Indonesia, Canada, Australia, South Africa and many others, all for the benefit of running the American, European and Japanese inflation rate precariously close to the deflationary border.

The American and the European have been reaping the lion's share of the "Peace Divident" since the fall of communism in the former USSR while the russian has had to settle for bits of table scraps, continually tightening his belt, seeing his purchasing power evaporate as products that are made from the raw materials extracted from his own soil are becoming less and less affordable to him while they become less expensive for the american and the european. The russian is reaching his breaking point, he's as mad as hell and he won't take it any more.

The European has the most to loose if upheaval develops in Russia but the American will not escape unscathed either. When the Russian revolution II comes about, the "government" that will emerge out of the chaos will transform Russia to the largest terrorist state in the world that will assert its power through its massive nuclear arsenal. So much for the peace divident. If the above scenario unfolds, the doomsday clock keeper may as well advance his clock to one second before midnight.

In order to prevent the above scenario from becoming reality, the European must take quick and decisive steps to remove the cloud of uncertainty over its plans for its Gold reserves. The ECB must realize and accept the fact that its new-born Euro will have no credibility to compete on an equal footing against the AMB, unless it is backed by at least the same amount of Gold as the American has in his Fort Knox. They should take a lesson from the decimated currencies of the Canadian and the Australian after they unwisely unloaded their Gold and in the process helped to decimate their own resource industries. The American must also play a role in reasserting Gold's credibility and paying a fair price for the world's natural resources.

PH in LA
(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:14 - ID#225408)
Do you really want to pose the old debate of smokers' vs. oxygen-breathers' rights again?

Seems like an unlikely topic for a clean-air advocate like yourself. ( I personally have nothing whatsoever against clean air and regularly imbibe while sailing on the ocean whose breezes blow cleaner than any country air I know of. )

In any case, out of deference to the off-topic rule, I will only participate if you can drag in others first, or can show how it relates to gold, silver or metal in general.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:17 - ID#43185)
The weekend comes
Things are winding down for whatever the overnight crowd has in store for us. The DOW looks like it's going to stay above the 9000 ( barely ) mark unless something unusual happens before it's early close. Although it was moderately down for the day, it showed more strength than I anticipated.

The afternoon goblin stepped in immediately after the London market close rather than his usual delay ( I guess he didn't go out to dally over a martini or two for lunch today ) , but met much resistence and spot gold finished just under 294. Silver showed much resistence under 5.30 and continues to look stronger than one might expect.

Go gold! Stop dollar!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:20 - ID#410198) is a open letter to a liberal friend.....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:23 - ID#162241)
RUBE: Your Comment re Euro and its Gold Backing
I would refer you to an interesting set of comments by Another re the Euro and its relationship to Gold. Attached is that interchange as extracted from USAGOLD. Thanks to Mr. Kosares and Another.

It is an interesting distinction.

From SAM: BARON in May 6, 1998 article ( HOT MONEY DOES NOT STAY IDLE LONG ) on golden-eagle web site poses question of what happens to EMU currencies when Euro takes over. He strongly suggests 240 Billion of upplanted currencies will end up at the LBMA where 12 Billion in paper gold is traded daily. The arithmetic works out to an explosion in the gold price of US$300/oz ( present day ) to US$6000/oz if this 240 Billion in "hot money" finds its way to the LBMA. US$6000/oz is your figure for the present interbank value for gold. Is the RED BARON on to something ?

Please comment !

Also, For whatever percent backing by gold, will the Euro be convertible to physical gold, and by whom ( i.e. all or limited ) ?


ANOTHER: Sir, The history of "Hot" paper money does show it to "burn easily" from " much heat"! If you read my Thoughts in today's replies, we see much "fuel" in dollar derivatives trading in foreign markets. Much of this trading represents a "claim" on physical gold that may become "a transaction for physical gold" as dollar reserves are displaced. The 6,000 valuation of gold can only be true if currency deflation destroys enough dollars to bring it down to that range. Without deflation, the dollar will be devalued much lower than this ( higher gold price ) ! Once the Euro is created and begins to effect world trade ( late 1999 perhaps ) , the gold market will begin a transition as never before! I think it will be interesting to follow the politics of this change, yes?

Your question of Euro gold backing? The Euro will not be backed or fixed in gold. It will, as Michael Kosares ( USAGOLD ) notes, be the first "modern currency" to hold true "exchange reserves" in gold. It is important to understand that "exchange reserves" of gold are much more powerful a tool for currency defense than gold backing! In this system, gold must be traded in a "public physical market", in that currency, Euros! As such, the Euro can "devalue gold" ( Euro price of gold falls ) thereby making it strong in gold! In today's world, this will happen as a "strong Euro physical market" displaces and defaults" the old dollar settlement paper gold market"! The dollar will become"weak in gold"!

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:24 - ID#212323)
Grizz...enjoyed the product of your big ol' brain (MENSA) at 13:21
Wonderful thoughts, thanks for sharing your situation. You are certainly a responsible individual, and I wish the world were filled with people of similar composition.After a little refection, I think you might be torturing yourself more than you should be over the gold issue.

I see two issue here: 1 ) Gold regaining its function as the money of the people, and 2 ) Gold as a means of wealth preservation.

For now, let's not worry about gold as money. Clearly, all individuals would benefit by returning to an honest means of settling debts, but that is not something that any ONE of us can do anything about.

The real issue is one of wealth. I, like you, work today in hopes of having a better tomorrow. We want to build a buffer between ourselves and death's doorway. That buffer is what wealth is. Shelter is wealth. Good health is wealth. A safe country to live in is wealth. A full stomach is wealth. A warm coat is wealth. A caring family is wealth. A steady job and income is wealth. Money is only wealth insofar as it can be converted to meet one's specific needs as a situation may require. And I suppose that if money were to fail in that function, by definition it would not be considered "money".

As we assess our personal situation, we may at times conclude that we are not in fact teetering on the threshold of death's door. Only at these times do the responsible ones among us allow ourselves some play time--a vacation, or a risky manuever. If one is living in a hand-to-mouth type existence, meeting daily needs is the all-consuming effort, and further discussions on wealth do not apply...there IS NO wealth.

If the future were absolutely certain, as a responsible person we could allow our wealth to accumulate in monetary form, buying our food, clothing, and shelter, etc as needed. But, because we know our money is not incorruptible ( alas, for gold would change that ) , we tend to look for
other means to store wealth. If you are barely scraping by, a kitchen fully stocked with groceries would be a prudent store of wealth. But as your wealth grows, storage becomes a problem. Just imagine if you tried to accumulate enough food during your working life that upon retirement you would never have to shop for food. Now THAT'S wealth! You certainly wouldn't be swept through death's door from starvation, no matter what may happen to the price of food due to a failing monetary system.

So, with storage and portability as valid concerns, you realize that attending to your wealth requires more thought than simply stocking up on your daily needs intended for future consumption. What then, is to be done? Here is where you put that MENSA brain into action, and try to realistically assess the degree of uncertainty that is inherent in our fiat and usurious monetary system. It can and does work, but for how long? Globally it is indeed a sick patient on life support. Gold is a natural choice for wealth preservation these days. But again, gold is the answer only when you are faced with storage or portability issues. From your post, I don't get the sense that this is the case. In regard to investments, invest in your ability to increase your personal production such that you can exceed your daily needs. Then you may amass wealth such that storage does become an issue. Good luck to us all in this regard!

got wealth?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:24 - ID#317193)
Gold and the JY will not always in the same direction
Do not delude yourself into a belief that gold is tied to the JY. Gold was much stronger than I anticipated given the lower JY.

Do not bet against gold next week. The Euro gang meets. Germany, France and Italy will not be happy with the Dutch man who speaks with forked tongue. The power is in the VOTE. These three have the votes.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:25 - ID#347235)
Yep, I posted to them already, interesting just how many people are really P.O.d have to watch our language now you know. They also have a sppot to provide feed back I wrote them there too as well as calling on my dime. If we can get enough people involved we can get the sorry individuals Arnett, et al Fired." Garry Owen" Shalom.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:30 - ID#410198)
PH in LA ....Platinum would fit that bill...who should we insult,sorry debate

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:31 - ID#287186)
HenryD & MM - I too am an INTJ or INTP depending on what is facing me.
I'd rather wing it and let things happen. ergo a "P"
But there are times I run out of patience and want a decision made and let's get on with it - as in Gold & Silver coinage. ergo a "J"
Seems to be a bunch of Introverts here. I think that is common throughout the internet. The extroverts are out partying and we are inside interneting. We find it easier to interact with people this way.
I'll bet that most here would also qualify for Mensa.
Mensa is an international social organization for people with IQs in the upper 2% - usually defined as over 130 or thereabouts. {Contrary to common perception - Mensa is not just a bunch of puzzle solvers and showoffs - at least those on the internet are not - but such extroverts are not likely on the internet much )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:40 - ID#402148)
Rubin 3/Yen Bears 2, DOW at resistance, bonds at resistance, dollar at resistance, gold at support, silver at support, copper at support.

I wouldn't want to be long the dollar or short gold Monday AM.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:43 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Robnoel -- Yup. That letter sums up the situation here pretty well. Won't be long before the last parts of it are implemented here. People who died fighting against the Nazis in WWII are currently spinning in their graves at the stupidity/uselessness of their deaths.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:45 - ID#210235)
@Hey, friends
Bought any Mounties lately?

They're real pretty and come all ready to slip in a gift card, a present that will be appreciated and kept for years.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:46 - ID#402148)
JP... We have been in disinflation since 1980....
mainstream is capitualting that inflation not which side of a trade u want to be on, the vast majority, or the contrarian smart money.

Remember NY Times front page saying INFLATION IS A PERMANENTPART OF OUR ECONOMY FROM NOW ON ( 1981 ) ?


(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:50 - ID#347235)
@ Grizz
Have you seen or heard anything from Pierre? He really was a lot of fun on K2,try to get him over here if you can.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:50 - ID#410198)
Eldorado....Amen to that.....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:54 - ID#227238)
Smoke gets in yer eyes??
PH in LA: Non-smokers have NO RIGHT to expect a smoke free atmosphere in all places and all times, simply because they choose to place themselves in that atmosphere.

A local neighborhood pub would be an excellent example. Its denizens are well noted. If a branch of the white wine and volvo set decide to have a beer in one, they should graciously accept the circumstances or leave.

In the final analysis, the issue is less one of public health than one of power. Exercised to the fullest.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:54 - ID#431366)
AragornIII - thank you for the reasoned and thoughtful reply
Your post and Orca's and many others here help me understand what is far beyond my day to day experience. Never before had I heard of BIS, foreign exchange reserves, etc. ( BTW - what are derivatives? - perhaps point me to a url )
I can only share with you my humble experience, hopes and expectations.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:55 - ID#288186)
FWIW; Comex Warehouse Totals....
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for July 2

Gold 1,059,912 + 5,229 troy ounces
Silver 85,891,321 - 19,935 troy ounces
Copper 61,573 - 897 short tons

N/A= Not available.
Man, I feel lost. I need encouragement. I want someone to tell me everything will work out like we all expect. Do I just need patience?
Hope everyone has a nice FOJ weekend! Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:56 - ID#347235)
Heads ARE rolling at CNN, it is out over the News Radio here in Fairbanks the Peter Arnett has been repremanded, and three senior producers have "resigned" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wont be happy till they FIRE Arnett.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:58 - ID#431366)
Retired Soldier re Pierre - I have lost him too!
I do wish he and Mooney would show up here.
I do not know how to reach many of the old gang.
Those that I can - I have.
Your concern does Pierre a great service.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 15:59 - ID#317193)
No one wants real things anymore...just paper. Gold and silver are relics. How about corn, beans and wheat...look at the prices for the new crop. The market is saying these have little value.

Tops go to bottoms and bottoms go to tops. I'll take that bet. Yes?


(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:01 - ID#288186)
TYoung; Makes since to me. I just need more patience for this
turnaround to occur. Thanks. Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:05 - ID#286230)
Chrisophilos: The view that the Canadian and Australian dollars are falling faster against the US$ than currencies of countries thought to have a lot of gold in the CB is often repeated here. I have heard elsewhere that this is not true and that all currencies are falling against the US$ and specifically the C$ is falling "in the middle of the pack".

Do you have any information for the past 4-5 years on the relative rates of decline --compared to the US$-- of currencies of countries thought to be holding vs not holding gold?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:08 - ID#343171)
new advertiser
I can speak from 2 1/2 years experience that if you trade Canadian stocks the Canadian Stock Market Reporter is a valuable resource, cheap too.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:10 - ID#350179)
Thanks to all
Msoft Bug Opens Site Secrets ( hee hee hee )

Japan announces plan to resolve its banking crisis

Off to rediscover the universe through the eye's of a 16 month old ( it's really BIG and wonderful - except for the 6 new teeth...up at 3:30 am owwwww ) Wouldn't trade it for anything ( even gold ) shhhh.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:19 - ID#248170)
@6pak re 13:44
I am currently residing in Thailand. Have been here 2 months now but in total in my life I have spent over 2 years here. Yes times are hard BUT the Thais are still eating and eating well. Thailand has huge amounts of food and is one of the largest food exporters in the world. Many Thais who have lost their jobs in Bangkok are returning to their families in the country to work the land. At least they have this alternative. Watch Thailand closely. They were the first to devalue. First in first out ? Gold is also very popular here.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:23 - ID#432112)
Burn, Baby Burn! We're Smokin' here in Brevard FL!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:24 - ID#335190)
WARM-DOWN @ Intel Plant Idling (FEAR exists in Corp. USofA EH!) Inflation/Deflation/IDLING
Intel ( INTC.O ) to cut back manufacturing for 10 days

SAN FRANCISCO ( Reuters ) - Intel Corp., the world's largest semiconductor company, will cut back on its manufacturing for about 10 days, beginning this holiday weekend, as part of its ongoing cost-cutting measures.

"This is a warm-down to reduce the inventory of older products," an Intel spokesman said. "You don't shut the plant down, you suspend production. You keep the plant idling so you can spool it back up without hesitation."

Separately, Intel held a meeting for the 1,700 employees Wednesday to inform them of a "voluntary separation" program, which is part of Intel's previously announced plan to cut 3,000 jobs from its total worldwide workforce of about 65,000.

"It is voluntary," said an Intel spokesman. "It is one of the tools we may use to attain that 3,000 goal. We said we will achieve that goal primarily through attrition."

Mike Stewart
(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:24 - ID#270253)
Big Time Tom
Vaal Reefs was re-named Anglogold. The others ( Free State, Western Deep, Western Areas ) were to be converted in Anglogold shares. Anglogold has been trading on Nasdaq as an ADR for months. It has disappeared over the last week along with the others. I know that they wanted to get a NYSE ADR listing ASAP. I can't find it there either. Quotes are available in S.A. Rand with a ratio of 10 to 1, from the following:

Gold Fields Limited ( not Gold Fields of S.A. ) has vanished too. They were supposed to go from the Nasdaq pink sheets to a full Nasdaq ADR listing.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:27 - ID#252391)
Chrisopolis and Fox-man
Enjoyed your thought Chrisopolis. I am concerned about Russioan Revolution II and its threat to the rest of the world, unfortunately, I think we are irreversably on our way there.

Hope the German and French do demand a strong EMU and put a collar on the gold sales and gold leasing by the central banks.

Fox-man - thanks for the silver inventory stats - When we get down to 75 million the fringes of the investment community may start to take notice. We here at Kitco are "beyond the fringe."

If there has ever been a contrarion bet it has to be on these metals and minng shares.

Next week will be critical - can gold and silver decouple from the yen??
My money is on that the metals will find a new drummner but I'm not sure when.

Have a happy fourth - time to give this stuff a good rest.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:28 - ID#266110)
A picture of CBs -- Au --- and Fiat Currencies
Here is a picture that attempts to explain the current state of affairs worldwide.

CBS are like a hot-air balloners who want their balloons ( economies ) to rise above the rest. They get into their ballons, start pumping out the fiat currency - to be used as fuel to burn in order to get their balloons ( economies ) to rise on the hot air draft of their fiat currencies. They produce more currency to create more heat and more lift.

Gold reserves serve as the ballast. The CBs throw it overboard to get even more lift - more quickly. They like the effects as they "burn" more fiat currency and throw more gold overboard.

There is only one problem. After they throw the gold overboard, they can't get it back ( without paying a dear price ) . But the game of the ballooner continues. The CBs are caught in a vicious cycle of having to constantly generate more "lift" by generating more fiat currency. They "burn" more and more currency in an attempt to compete against their fellow ballooners who are likewise "burning" more currency to get more lift. Like Icarus who wanted to get closer and closer to the sun, the CBs are trying to get their economies ( balloons ) into the stratosphere, whereby creating a bubble that will ultimately burst and crash to earth.

So, it is the poor "schmucks" like the Kitcoites who are now buying up the gold that has been tossed overboard as the CBs float skyward. The question is: what will happen when the game is up and the CBs realize what they have done? This will invariably be played out as an economic downturn - the gravity could be a "recession" ( as defined in Japan at present ) or an outright Depression.

But whatever the results, it will be the Kitcoites who have the "ballast" after the day of the CB ballooner has come to an end. Happy flying all.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:28 - ID#36156)
GRIZZ - Pierre
I add my voice to that of Retired Soldier. Pierre was a treat to read ... a real hoot. Is there any way to get his humor and unique character here in K1? Maybe one of your other cohorts might be able to contact him?

HenryD ( Happy Goldens and Silvers - hee, hee )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:30 - ID#335190)
Jeremy @ 16:18
Thanks Jeremy. Family and Gold, I like that. And back to the land. You are right "First In First Out"
Thanks again, and keep us posted. Take Care

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:30 - ID#252150)
Stanley Fischer@A pathetic, unimaginitive bureaucrat--Just caught him on CNBC
trying to put a positive spin on the IMFs swath of destruction in SEAsia.
I have to give Bill Griffith credit for making Fischer uncomfortable with some probing questions. Fischer tried to say that things were improving in SEAsia ex Japan. Big deal, even if it was true. Japan's economy is at least 10 times bigger than all those other economies combined and Griffith got him to admit that the future does'nt exactly look rosy for Japan. Also looked very uncomfortable when he admitted that China could devalue

It has always boggled my mind how these mediocre individuals rise so high in bureaucracies. IMO, they are just extraordinarily good brownnosers.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:36 - ID#427357)

Without any fanfare today the Japanese Yen plummeted ALMOST THREE YEN vs the $US. It went from 138 to nearly 141. I checked three quote services - and all seem to agree more or less.

What HAPPENED? A loss of nearly 3 Yen is a big hit for just one day. Is there an error in the quoting services?

Does anyone know anything?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 16:37 - ID#255284)
I, for one, would like to hear current relevant news from Thailand. ( No need to tell us of the novel ways Thai women have to emasculate their erring husbands-- well, if you must, you must ) My friends in Laos are often without communication...

What part of the country are you? Are the building cranes still standing silent and unmoving in Bangkok?

Here is a link from last night. I recall that fashioned Thai gold = spot + a bowl of rice.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:39 - ID#230119)

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:41 - ID#212323)
Hi. Weren't you once the moon?

the moon
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:45 - ID#374242)
cgi error fixed
sorry for the cgi error

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:48 - ID#212323)
Gandalf the White
And while Kitco is out of commission to those not possessing my special healing powers, let me take this time to make your acquaintence. I saw your post a day or so ago. I'm certain you are correct. Shadowfax has passed by...I caught a fleeting glimpse once. Gollum is here, too, but has given up his lurking ways... a presence so prominent as to make you pause to count your fingers.

You know JRRT had to be a big believer in gold. Dragons and countless dwarves can't all be wrong.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:51 - ID#212323)
the moon
Talk to me friend. The world is watching as they are locked out of Kitco.
As I alluded to earlier, the hands of a king are the hands of a healer. Are you here to heal Kitco?

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:54 - ID#212323)
the moon...on what basis do you make your claim at 18:45 that the cgi error is fixed?
I find that it is not, and I run low on Athelas...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:58 - ID#210235)
@Here comes la nina
And a pretty picture it is, from the satellite.

Perhaps not so on the ground.

What would be the effect of a severe harvest disruption?

You do the math.

Frankly, I expect severe price swings to escalate over the next couple of years, both in currencies and products, resulting in trade disruptions. Don't bet the farm on inflation or deflation. The secular inflation is over, we're experiencing the early crash of a great wave of inflation - happens every two hundred years or so. If you visualize the collapse of an ocean wave on a shore, you get the short form.

Part of the anatomy of such a period is that we are much less able than normal to handle the estraordinary stresses which occur in such a period, because of the stresses of the previous inflation.

Got gold?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:59 - ID#210235)
@The cgi error
has disappeared from my neighborhood, too.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 18:59 - ID#212323)
Americans...Saturday is the Fourth day of July...
it is INDEPENDENCE DAY. Please alter your vocabulary in due course.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:00 - ID#26395)
Aragon III
The moon is at Kitco...Glitches are being worked out as we speak.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:01 - ID#249206)
vronsky: see the following news artile ...
Go to
and search for 'yen'

The reason why the yen fell 3 to 4 yen per dollar is that the
greatly anticipated plan for bank cleanup contained nothing new.

Watch the slide during the weekend ... Now that the pres has left
China, don't be surprised if they don't make a yuan move. Then
there will be lots of echos ...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:03 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.72. The 50 day moving average is 30.19

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:03 - ID#210235)
@Our poor studio and Cherokee
Oklahoma's in the hundred + range again today. Bet Texas is hotter. Let's wave at them really hard.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:05 - ID#215379)
better give gold a chance
I guess I have to get out of gold shares and give them a chance to go up. Whenever I sell shares, they go up ....

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:05 - ID#210235)
@Hi, Bart
Them mounties are right purty. Much nicer than a picture of a mountie.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:06 - ID#212323)
Hi Promie
I hope people don't mistake the cgi error for Bart's 404 boot to the arse...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:08 - ID#210235)
@Japan's still pulling the metals down

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:09 - ID#210235)
@well, Aragorn of Arathorn
A little shaking up would do most of us ( myself included ) some good.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:09 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .234. The 50 day moving average is .271. My database contains 27 occasions where the XAU closed in the 68.XX range. Ranked according to the price of gold, today is #19. The #1 ranking was on April 29, 1986, with a gold price of $345.00, an XAU of 68.71, producing an XAU/AU ratio of .199

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:13 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 55.23. The 50 day moving average is 54.08

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:14 - ID#212323)
How about selling any Canyon Resources shares you might have. A fine company in all respects, and deserving of the boost you have the power to give. Any Canyon owners may be interested in checking out their new web site at
It is essentially the info that can be found in the annual report. Nice picture of gold being poured into a bar.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:15 - ID#26793)
The numbers below are all 50 day moving averages
Spot gold $297.49; spot silver $5.52, XAU 77.62

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:21 - ID#347267)
Whar yu at GBoy? Spent 32 yars om Merritt ( s ) Island whilst awukkin at Uncle Sammy's Rocket Ranch. I Hopes yu is East of the Injun River!!!
Best Regards; Mtn Bear

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:24 - ID#255217)
the Moon
Hi. Why the name change?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:26 - ID#26793)
@Aragorn III
Can you give us the name of the bar? Sounds like a good place to stop in for a drink.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:27 - ID#212323)
Donald @ 19:09
Didn't you once say the low was .146 in June 1986? Not to hard to accept the notion that we are now at #19 on the all time list ( in your database ) . Looking at various mining companies, I'm seeing stock prices as low as when gold was in the dumps in January. Stock sure seems out of favor...even more so than gold itself.

Big Time Tom
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:33 - ID#212320)
Many thanks to Mike Stewart

Just saw your 16:24 reply to my question about WDEPY. Thanks a million for such a clear and informative reply. Thanks also for the URL.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:34 - ID#26793)
Pegasus gold news

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:35 - ID#34857)
...and a cgi would be?...

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:40 - ID#347267)
@ HenryD
For a while, when attempting to post, unable due to: "CGI Error" various things listed as wrong. Papa Bart was quick to fix!!! Go Gold!!!!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:41 - ID#26793)
@Aragorn III
I have 2962 records in my database since December 19, 1983, the first day of XAU trading. I think that is about 90% complete. I will have them all in soon. The lowest XAU/Spot ratio reading was on July 25, 1986. Gold was at $347.90, XAU at 59.13 producing a XAU/AU ratio of .170

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:42 - ID#432112)
Mtn Bear - Report from Melbourne, FL
Looks like you must have run for the hills M.B. How's the view? A little smokey here. The Beeline is closed East of 520 due to Flames. Hottest & Driest in Recorded History.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:42 - ID#210235)
CGI is a common gateway interface. It's used to write applications that remote users can state by filling out an HTML form or clicking a link on your Webserver.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:44 - ID#34857)
Mtn Bear (SE) - er, sure... I knew that!
Thanks. : )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:47 - ID#34857)
Promey - Thanks to you too!
Wow, you talk that tech talk real good!

Much obliged.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:49 - ID#210235)
@I can read, henryD
and luckily have a real good tech library right beside me. Now I should know that, having read that particular book. Mind like a sieve.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:50 - ID#251166)
Where's Gold Going -- Next Week? Next Month? Next Year?
Non-tech-type here ( barring getting 404'd ) :

Just ran out a quirky little AU chart: Around last Friday or so, the 10 ( trading ) day moving average crossed over the 30 ( trading ) day moving average. Last time this happened was late March '98, just prior to the April spike up from 295 to 310-313. The previous time we had such a crossover was in January '98, when gold shot from 287 up to 305. A couple other times last year too, but not nearly so remarkable.

What happened today, however, was rare. Gold dropped right into the pocket BETWEEN the 10- and 30-day moving averages. Last time this happened was not good: Around mid-May of last year when it hovered around 345 for a few weeks then dived to under 320.

On the other other hand, with the possibility of JY intervention at any time, T.A. goes out the window IMHO.

Captain Bill, the Privateer, said last Friday: "Right now, Gold is poised to go in either direction. The hardest thing of all to predict is the point at which enough individuals decide that the global financial system as it presently stands is simply untenable . . . ."

Steve Kaplan writes today: "The volatility index or VIX, a measure of implied volatilities for U.S. stock index options which demonstrates complacency vs. fear in the market, closed up 0.03 at 18.08. Its intraday high was 18.43 and its intraday low was 17.56, by far its lowest reading since November 25, 1996."

So somebody tell me: Which way is gold going next week? Next month? Next year?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:53 - ID#34857)
Anyone, please ... a bit on the serious side...
I'm a PGU holder. At current share price, I figure I'm out about US$10k so far.

Can someone please tell me what this means? ...

"...the common shareholders of Pegasus Gold Inc. are unlikely to receive any distribution in the reorganization."

Is this saying that I'm out of luck?

HenryD ( So, so depressed... )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 19:57 - ID#26793)
South African, Russian and other PM news.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:00 - ID#34857)
Promey - least you knew where to go for the info.
I have to read a book four times just to memorize the title!

HD ( Would somebody PLEASE put this Golden Bear to sleep? )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:03 - ID#402131)
If the EURO has a large gold backing it will be a strong currency.
If it has a small gold backing it will be weak. Either way its just a matter of time for the US$. Sooner/later who knows? The bottom line is deflation-BIG TIME DEFLATION! None of us will enjoy the results. Those
who are not prepared will really be hurting. I think silver coins will hold up well and not be so liable to be "recalled" by the Feds as they are still US currency.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:03 - ID#210235)
@Hi, HenryD
Well, now I'm in the same position in my metals stocks. Sucks, heh?

In the book The Intelligent Investor, Benjamin Graham and Warren Buffett wrote that you should never never sell a stock right after a big loss of value, and never buy one right after a big rise in value. Now, that's cause they're value investors, and believe that if a stock was a good buy at the price you bought it at, well, it's a great buy lower. Buy more!

Momentum investors do the opposite, of course. Sometimes they're successful, too. But Graham and Buffett are pretty darned good. Their book is out in at least 4 editions, and I'd bet you could get a copy at a used book store/library sale for a buck or two.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:04 - ID#26793)
The fight continues over the regulation of derivatives.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:04 - ID#434108)
"Viewing Options/add comment" my-comments trapped in ' CGI Error" message abortion ed gift
Dear fellow/sister-kitcoites,
In the same place that I always draft my... "masterpieces"...
( -forgive me- )
to my fellow-, indulgent-kitcoites....I've been foiled ( again ) .

My draft, proposed posting:
"Monetary Crucifixion...& Liberty" ( 7/2/98 ) ...
has been blocked/dis-allowed/not-posted....because of some apparent ( -but un-apparent to me ) error, such as:
"An error in CGI application.....http headers ...".....etc.

Any of you, with a suggestion as to how to get my 'saved in my e-mail'
draft of an intended kitco-posting -- my latest 'grand epistle' ( ha,ha ) ,
out.... & onto..... the kitco discussion board world ....

well, i'd greatly appreciate any suggestions/help.

I've inquired/e-mailed a few kitcoite-email friends, and BK, but
their likely too busy for such a mundane, embarrassed request.
Alas, I'm still getting that "Error in CGI application"...
"CGI application misbehaved.....http headers..."
etc. etc.

Any suggestions, anyone?

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:05 - ID#229103)
@Security clearance for Dr. Lim
This rocket scientist, Dr. Lim, at Loral's satellite division had a top-secret clearance from 2/93 to 2/97. There was an argument here on this very subject a couple of weeks ago:

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:13 - ID#43460)
Selected news links pertaining to economy/gold/politics
Strong dollar undermines price of gold once more. ( Same song, 700th verse. When do we go on to the next tune? )

Rand down:

Dollar mixed:

US mortgage rates nearly stable:

US jobless rate rises:

May factory orders weak:

The Carville connection:

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:15 - ID#426220)

Jung, many thx for the Yen info source on why the Nippon currency fell nearly 4 yen vs the greenback. Much obliged amigo.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:15 - ID#26793)
Gold and silver coin prices at noon today.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:17 - ID#434108)
Ludwig von MIses, a champion of Liberty:, and decrier of paper money:
"Government is the only agency
that can take a useful commodity
like paper,
slap some ink on it,
and make it totally worthless."

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:21 - ID#434108)
Happy July 4th, every individual one, & all/ U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sect. 10:
"No state shall...make anything but gold & silver coin
a tender in payment of debts...."

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:22 - ID#39862)
Tantalus Rex ...........mirror mirror on the wall...................

Tantalus Rex ( EURO & Gold Reserves )

IF the Euro should prove a threat to the US$ from "day one", one would expect the EURO to be attacked by US$? Yes/No.

For the Euro to be attacked, it has to be funerable? Yes/No

For it to be funerable, it has to have a limited gold backing? Yes/No

Given what has happened around the world over the last two years, with the US$ "attacking" other currencies, is it likely that the Europeans will repeat the same mistake? I think not.

Mirror, mirror on the wall - how much gold is in Gaul ?

..........Gaul, an ancient kingdom in Europe.

Gold and the Euro, makes alot of sense to me.

Now, what was that US National Debt........any bidders?

Och aye the noooooooooooooo...........

Ps there are gold mines in Scotland, problem is only the "selected" few know where they are.......

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:23 - ID#34857)
Promey - PGU
Thanks, Promey for your quick response. Please indulge me a bit...

So are my existing PGU shares still good? Please trust me, I'm totally ignorant about some of these things. One day I had a slew of shares worth something, the next they're worth zip and they don't trade in a US exchange anymore. Now I hear that shareholders won't garner any value from the reorganization - whatever that means.

I haven't sold anything yet, so I guess my questions is, are they ( my shares ) still any good - albeit worthless - or should I just burn the certificates?


HD ( Confused )

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:26 - ID#212323)
You said, "On the other other hand, with the possibility of JY intervention at any time, T.A. goes out the window IMHO"

I leave TA to the speculators...and it is beyond me why anyone with TA skills would mess around in the gold market when there are SO MANY real commodities out there to work with. Gold is best left either ignored on the ground, or in a pocket if someone can be found willing to stoop down and pick it up. My guess is that it ends up in pockets.

If Central banks were to dishoard all of their gold, and if every scrap was gathered up from all nooks and crannies on the planet, a socialistic-type redistribution ( God-forbid ) would give every person alive only about two-thirds of an ounce. Now THAT is a tight market. When you consider that much of the world's gold inventory isn't going to be leaving the hands of its present owners anytime soon, the REAL gold market gets quite a bit tighter. Technical Analysis can fly by the wayside in the blink of an eye. Why would anyone play that game? They are tougher men than I, for certain.
TA can implode with gold for any number of political, social, or economic reasons. In an untroubled world, TA can tell you what all of the other speculators are thinking, and waht moves they are likely to make, but it can't tell you what will happen with gold. Intuition is a better guide. And if you spend any time at this site, your objectivity is already sacrificed, and your intuition points only to higher POG. Fortunately, in the end, you will be correct, sir.

But since I treat gold as a tool for wealth preservation rather than as an investment, I don't necessarily beat the drums for a higher gold price. There are times when gold can function as an investment in addition to a means to preserve wealth, and I beleive that this is one of those times. I would also like to see gold inch upward a bit simply as a show of mercy to my mining stock. As an investment, price of gold really isn't the important thing. You want to know what its reletive position is versus the commodities you will one day need...grain, sugar, butter, etc.
Gold's ability to increase the equivalency factor is where the investment value is measured. To use a tired example in order to make my point abundantly 1oz gold may be valued at one good suit for a man ( arguably it is only half a good suit these days--or less ) , tomorrow will it be equivalent to two or three suits? THAT is an investment. In dollar terms, if the purchasing power stays the same as the $price of each rises in like measure, that is simply wealth preservation.

got both?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:26 - ID#286230)
Rest of Asia likes Japan's Plan?
Asia stocks rally on Japan cleanup plan

SINGAPORE ( Reuters ) - Asian markets marked the first anniversary of the start of the

regional financial crisis with strong rallies Thursday as Japan approved a key plan aimed at

cleaning up its debt-ridden banking system.

A senior party official said the plan, which involves setting up a "bridge bank" system to

liquidate failed banks, had been approved at a meeting between ruling party and government


Before the announcement, made after the close of trade, Tokyo stocks had risen on hopes

the government would bite the bullet of banking sector reform.

Although an early surge of more than 2 percent on Japan's Nikkei index petered out by the

close, other markets held onto their gains.

Hong Kong stocks, battered recently by concerns over Japan's fragile economy, ended

nearly 4 percent higher while stocks in Thailand, the Philippines and Taiwan finished with

similar gains. Regional currencies were also firmer, helped by the yen's strength above 140 to

the dollar for most of the Asian day.

The plan approved Thursday aims finally to tackle a severe bad-debt problem in Japan's

banking system, seen as the major factor behind the Japanese economy's nearly decade-long


Its economy is now in recession and is exacerbating the region's already severe economic


The plan would put failed banks under public administration before dissolution while public

bridge banks take over their healthy loan businesses.

Dealers said the prospect of firm action to restructure the financial sector had sparked a

genuine turnaround in sentiment.

"There has clearly been a shift from on high in terms of resolve to help Japan deal with

troubled institutions," said Coen Kluyver, a manager at ING-Barings Securities.

Keiko Kondo, strategist at Merrill Lynch Japan Inc., said: "We can't see any negative factors

on the horizon and the Nikkei 225 will likely maintain a firm tone, at least until the July 12

Upper House elections."

The benchmark Nikkei average closed up 108.69 points, or 0.66 percent, at 16,471.58. One

fund manager forecast the Nikkei would rise to 17,500 before the parliamentary elections.

The yen held steady around 138.50 per dollar for most of the day, before falling back past

the 140 level in early Europe.

The volatile Hong Kong market, which missed Asia's Wednesday rally because of a holiday,

raced 5.0 percent higher to 8,970.3 at one point before paring gains to end up 3.78 percent

at 8,866.16.

Sentiment was boosted by a rate cut in China, Beijing's second monetary easing in just over

three months, as well as by positive developments in Japan, traders said.

Gains swept across the smaller Asian markets, most of them savaged since the crisis began

on July 2, 1997, when Thailand gave up defending its baht currency.

"The market is only watching the Tokyo market and the yen," said a dealer in Kuala Lumpur,

where the main share index ended up 1.48 percent.

The prospect of a revived Japanese economy was enough to inspire East Asian stock

markets desperate for exports to their largest customer.

Thai shares burst 3.98 percent higher to 277.98, Manila rose by 4.17 percent to 1,856.19

and Jakarta by 2.15 percent to 466.37. Singapore's key Straits Times Index ended up 2.72

percent at 1,124.87.

New Zealand stocks closed 2.2 percent higher at 2,054.2, reinforcing a big Wednesday gain,

although dealers warned the market seemed to have peaked for the short term.

Good gains in Tokyo, Hong Kong and overnight in New York helped push Australia's All

Ordinaries index 1.60 percent higher.

Taiwan stocks surged 3.55 percent, influenced mostly by Wall Street's nearly 100-point jump

on Wednesday, traders said.

The odd market out Thursday was Seoul. It closed down 1.20 percent at 311.77.

A broker said enthusiasm was limited by large short positions that foreigners took in the

futures market Wednesday.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:29 - ID#34857)
Promey, et al ... I gotta run.
All; Thanks in advance for any comments you make tonight RE:PGU. I promise to respond in the morning.

Promey - I'll look into those books you suggested. Thanks.

HenryD ( Golden dinner bell pings. )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:31 - ID#434108)
words of wisdom from another gov't expert - revealing how we've sacrificed our liberty, for lunacy.
from Congressman Henry S. Reuss, U.S. House of Representatives,
long-term chairman of House Banking & Currency Committee ( 1960's ) :

"With Gold no longer playing a major role in
the international monetary system,
its price will sink
to its value in the arts ...
something much closer to $6.00 an ounce,
rather than the current $35.00/oz."

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:32 - ID#39862)
To all our American cousins..........

Tried of being an American ?

Time to get a bit of culture into your life ?

Not so sure what two and a half baths means ?

Och aye the noooooooooooooo................

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:33 - ID#210114)
I have posted before many times that he Euro is not and will not be BACKED by gold. The ECB will hold a certain % of gold as foreign currency reserves, but that does not make it backed by gold. The US holds 8000 tonnes of gold and yet no-one on this line would argue that the US$ is backed by gold.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:34 - ID#210114)
Bart Kitner and Error 404
Thanx Bart. This is an excellent chat line but for the insults and rudeness. Good to see you cleaning it up.

Live Long and Propser.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:37 - ID#212323)
Goldfevr...your 20:04
Bring up the window with your text, and highlight it by clicking down the left mouse button and dragging it from the beginning to the end of the text. Release the button. the click on the Edit command at the top of the window and select Copy. Then go to Kitco's POST MESSAGE screen, and after making sure that you have a blinking cursor in the proper window, select the Paste command within Edit at the top of your browser's window.

Or did I misunderstand your question?

got problems?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:38 - ID#210114)
Not much good news out there.........
To all: It seems that wherever we turn the news is negative for gold. After January's low of $US 276 it has still not recovered some 6 months later. It has been beow $US 300 now since December last year. The worst bear for 20 years.

While on one hand it makes an excellent buying opportunity, it does not auger well for the yellow metal's use as a monetary assett. This may very well be the bear that breaks the psychology of not only bankers, but the public at large.

I myself am making money, but not because gold is up but because the Aussie dollar has crashed.

Live Long and Propser.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:40 - ID#434108)
Dear Haggis:thank-you for the offer of 2&1/2 baths, etc.+; who/what else is included, for culture?
And can I pay in gold coin,
or would you prefer paper dollars,
of which realm?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:41 - ID#39862)
Free bagpipe lessons.......................

goldfevr ( Dear Haggis:thank-you for the offer of 2&1/2 baths, etc.+; who/what else is included, for culture? )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:46 - ID#434108)
Arag. III@20:37
I will try what you suggest, but I've
probably already tried it, and again.
I've been posting here at kitco,
for a while.
This is the first time I've written an original draft,
within kitco's discussion-board software, that was/is not allowed/posted...
due to "CGI Error"...... ( ? ) ....

Thanks anyway,

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:46 - ID#412286)
Just say no to silver.. its that simple ansd become free.. Brought to you by concerned citizens for a silver free America.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:47 - ID#39862)
Mirror, mirro on the wall..............

Whats all this then...........

Swiss don't want to part with their gold ?

It's like "old" G Soros saying - " Have I got a deal for you ".......

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:48 - ID#434108)
Haggis' bag-pipes
but are you a real musician?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:50 - ID#39862)
Question is ........ when does the White Flag go up...........

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:50 - ID#212323)
Spock and Rack...
If the euro were in place today, there would be a circulating value of 1.4 trillion euros. The foreign exchange reserves ( including a percentage that is gold ) would total approximately 50 billion euros in equivalent value. Of that, the number being bantied around is 10 to 15% to be gold, which is 5 to 7.5 billion equivalent gold value...a little over 500 tonnes at todays prices.

I gave a long post perhaps two weeks ago addressing this very issue. It would be a fine reference, but there is no way I could find it. The Kitco search engine doesn't seem to find things more recent than March in my experience.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:52 - ID#39862)
Goldfevr...............Aye Laddie, listen to the Music..............

Better than a gold mine............

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:52 - ID#411112)
I did a cyber thing for all from me to you happy birthday America

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:55 - ID#434108)
is this ludicrous (sp-?) or what//maybe i'm just too much the jaded cynic...
"sanctions" ( !?! ) by NY & CA treasurers...aga. Swiss Banks...
on behalf of their Jewish constituents....

is this for real... ?!

is any thing in this un-real world real ?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:58 - ID#347457)
@Haggis__A (Mirror, mirro on the wall..............) I

you better be carefull. I am so much used to "Mirror, mirror on the wall" referring to my name - "Miro" that I can make a trademark issue out of this ;- )

Well, maybe I can make some money on Gold afterall ;- )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 20:58 - ID#39862)

goldfevr ( is this ludicrous ( sp-? ) or what//maybe i'm just too much the jaded cynic... )

It could only happen in America. I'm sure that the Swiss are "very worried".

Now, what was that about Gold and the Euro...............?????

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:01 - ID#43460)
Prometheus thakyou for the grains URL
I've bookmarked it. I suspect that the modern world grain reserve calculated in days of food per person is lower than that of the ancient civilizations. IMHO

Here is another site of interest to those who would calculate grain reserves. It is old but still gives perspective:

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:03 - ID#434108)
Haggis @ 20:52, thanks, Music liberates & unites all of humanity, but will I be ' in- time' ?
The last soul who upgraded my computer, removed my sound-card.

I guess he was intimidated by my potential for saving the world
with my music.....
or was it I.....

Watch out for those Scots; they wear kilts.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:05 - ID#147201)
Haggis re Gold Mines In Scotland
I'm satisfied they are in a lot of places that most would never suspect. There are only a "few" who know how to locate. I would like to hear more about those in Scotland without you divulging too much. You must be in touch with the gnomes. Thanx, Charlie

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:10 - ID#335190)
Criminal probe launched in fatal copter crash

ULAN-UDE, Russia ( CP ) -- Public prosecutors today launched a criminal investigation into a helicopter crash in Siberia that killed a Canadian mining executive and injured a dozen people.

A prosecutor in charge of transport, Yakov Khoroshev, was quoted by the Itar-Tass news agency as saying the probe was instituted under a section of the Criminal Code dealing with violation of flight safety regulations that result in deaths.

Colin Chapman, 55, director of Toronto-based High River Gold Mines Ltd. was among three people killed when a Russian helicopter caught fire and crashed in Siberia shortly after takeoff Wednesday.

High River president David Mosher, 52, and the company's chief financial officer, Elizabeth Martin, 42, were injured.

The other dead were Randa Smine, 37, a Lebanese staffer with the the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and Yevgeny Nefedov, 39, a Russian citizen described as an official of BuryatZoloto ( Buryat Gold ) , the company which hired the helicopter.

Nine injured crew and passengers were airlifted by helicopters to hospitals in Irkutsk, two of them in extremely serious condition, a source in the regional emergencies committee told Tass.

Another four passengers who suffered less serious injuries remained in the settlement of Samarta under the care of local medics. One passenger with minor burns was not hospitalized.

The bodies were expected to be taken to Ulan-Ude on Thursday. The crashed Mi-8 belonged to the Ulan-Ude Aviation Enterprise and was chartered by the Butyatzoloto gold-mining company to take EBRD representatives from the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development to its enterprises.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:14 - ID#335190)
howdown between Israeli and Palestinian
troops; Gaza sealed

KFAR DAROM, Gaza Strip ( AP ) -- Israeli and Palestinian troops scuffled
on Thursday and later pointed guns at one another from hastily dug
fortifications outside Jewish settlements in the southern Gaza Strip.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:23 - ID#210114)
Silver to dive IMVHO
Friend of mine has a brother working for Kodak. They and Fuji are moving away from traditional film and into digital. That will mean that there will be less silver used up in photography.

Demand will fall. Price will fall.

Live Long and Propser.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:29 - ID#434108)
robnoel@ 20:52, et /or 'all'
Thank-you for the url site/pictures.
I don't know what Bart's policy is on "self-advertising"..
for me/my view...
we're all welcome to exchange our ideas, our wares....
our bulls & our bears

if it is an exchange that allows the risk
and the possible reward...
of helping one another....

the possibility
that each one
bartering, exchanging, engaging, transacting, communicating,
each other one

whether we be...&/or: -
family members
ethnic groups

it is all about energy...
the exchange and sharing..
and ...

we all are called upon to risk sharing, offering,
creating ....
our own individual unique irreplace-able
gift ( s ) ...
the precious, essential, unique contribution...
that only each of us...
can each create, produce and share..
with our own
and daring....

only in this challenge
in this calling
in this quest

will humanity find its salvation
and fulfillment

and gold-based money & credit institutions & systems, of what ever governments & nations of people,
singularly, or collectively...
focus upon
and dedicate their lives, fortunes & sacred honor to...
as this

only then, will the world
truely embrace
a genuinely new

Bully Beef
(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:34 - ID#259282)
Gold is fundametal (pun intended)
The economists are doing their jobs... the best that can be done. They have seen it all, they have used all the tools they know how to use to keep the bubble from bursting. They have used rate hikes ,devaluations ,sellings of gold, rate decreases, propaganda, incentives to buy indirectly into the stock market, so on and so forth.............
Well it has worked. They have been pulling more rabbits out of hats than there are hats. And you know what? There are too many rabbits! We are over sold on them. No more demand for them. Go ask Alice.. when she's ten feet tall. Gold is the FUN DAMN METAL! This was the last week for the Dow cow.They can't keep the yen from it's slide cause everybody is selling into the props. There is just too much money at stake. The big shots are about to do Hari Kari on themselves cause of their bloody greed... but they can't help themselves from stealing the money the U.S. taxpayer is about to inject into the Japanese system ( How many billion this time? ) . After the big shots steal the money...the U.S. will be too weak willed to support them ( the Japanese ) again. The catch 22 is... the US is too chicken to break the big shots. The people who are accountable to the taxpayers ( for monetary policy ) should tempt the shorts... suck them in and then screw them big time over the yen.Don't go chasing rabbits...FEED YOUR HEAD! Quite simply gold cuts through the bull to real value. Cut the crap and buy gold.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:38 - ID#434108)
BB@ 21:34
Thank-you for your down to earth, earthy rendition of reality.
I concur. Yet, I only wish I were a vegetarian.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:39 - ID#254112)
BIS Summit on July 11,1998 in Tokyo
It's the first time the BIS has a top member meeting outside Switzerland.
The summit meeting in Tokyo follows the opening of the first BIS dependency outside of Europe, in Hong-Kong on the 10th of July.

According to The Washington Post from Sunday, June28, 1998 the leading members participating will be A. Greenspan, Alice M. Rivlin from the FED,
besides the traditional members of the Group of 10 industrial nations, plus Switzerland.

Since a few years the American representatives became more active in attending these BIS summit meetings. Earlier the FED used to ignore the BIS meetings because of the rivalry between the BIS and the IMF. It is obvious that politics have changed and now the FED will try to overpower traditional BIS politics, which was promoting and relying on gold as the ultimate reserve holding of CBs. Alice Rivlin is an outspoken enemy of any kind of gold reserves to play a role in international finances.

ANOTHER has pointed to this meeting several weeks ago and expressed his expectation that the gold market will be different from this meeting on.

Before this BIS meeting happens in Tokyo on the 11th of July, the ECB will have an important EURO meeting on July 7, as far as I know in Frankfurt.

We will watch the outcome of these meetings together with great excitement, YES?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:43 - ID#335190)
DNA & Jewish ROOTS @ Heard this before EH! ( A new twist, by trickster's eh!)
DNA tests ordered for immigrants to determine Jewish roots

JERUSALEM ( AP ) -- Russian immigrants whose Jewish lineage is in question have been asked to have DNA tests, the Interior Ministry said Thursday.

Dozens of immigrants have already been asked to take the tests and those who refuse to co-operate risk eventual deportation.

The tests are administered only as a last resort to verify an immigrant's Jewish background, the ministry said.

The tests are administered only as a last resort to verify an immigrant's Jewish background, the ministry said.

But Minister of Immigrant Absorption Yuli Edelstein said he had not heard of the practice and would look into the matter. Community activists and immigrants say the practice is humiliating.

In the last decade, nearly 800,000 immigrants have gone to Israel from the former Soviet Union. Under Israel's Law of Return, those who can show they have a Jewish parent or grandparent are eligible for citizenship and government benefits.

The Interior Ministry says the tests would help determine whether the blood relatives listed on the birth certificates of applicants for citizenship were indeed related to one another. Government officials have expressed concern about reports of fraudulent documents.

NOTE This.....................

THE MAGNA CARTA ( The Great Charter ) :


John, by the grace of God, king of England, lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou, to the
archbishop, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justiciaries, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his bailiffs and liege
subjects, greetings.

10. If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond.

11. And if anyone die indebted to the Jews, his wife shall have her dower and pay nothing of that debt; and if any children of the deceased are left under age, necessaries shall be provided for them in keeping with the holding of the deceased; and out of the residue the debt shall be paid, reserving, however, service due to feudal lords; in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:45 - ID#287129)
Spock (Silver to dive IMVHO)
Some people seem to ONLY post negative comments regarding PM's.

Perhaps after the INCESSANT beatings that some of us have taken, I might be reacting somewhat sensitively to Spock's incessant negativity regarding gold and silver. Is he shorting the market and hoping to scare others out of their long positions?

Can SOMEONE with INTELLIGENT PERSPECTIVE let me know whether Spock's latest posting is credible??? ...or is it just another "spin" from the shorts who have cause us goldbugs to suffer, and suffer, and suffer...

Frankly, I'm at the point of almost being depressed before I even read anything that Spock or Disney have to say, because it is a foregone conclusion that it will be more bad news for us goldbugs...or should I say gold fanatics? With my luck of the last three years, the one way I know of for gold to finally go up is for me to sell out. Then I could almost guarantee that it would SHOOT way up there within days or weeks.

I was truly hoping that July 4th would be financial Independence Day for some of us who have gone backwards in this crazy world...but it appears that we have to suffer yet another setback in a long string of very frustrating disappointments. Personally, when the shorts finally get stung with a skyrocketing gold/silver bull rally that's for REAL, they will be getting what they have given out.


(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:47 - ID#287186)
Selby and others whose posts end up double spaced.
I found that when I did a "hard" return

at the end of each line to force a wrap

to the next line and then I previewed

before posting - what looked single spaced

in the initial window ended up double spaced

in the final post - without changing a thing

in the preview. Lets see if this post does it.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:54 - ID#287186)
Yep - it sure did. So PLEASE save our scroll buttons & eyeballs.
A "return" ends up as double spaced if you pass through preview and just a new paragraph if you skip the preview and directly post to the group.

I just returned at the end of group - so there should be no extra line if I will post direct but there will be if I preview then post. Generally I leave the word wrap take care of itself. Putting returns on the ends of lines to manually start a new line just makes the final post harder to read. At least this is the way things work for me in Netscape Communicator 4.0.5.

P.S. Old hands pardon the trials here for the benefit of new hands.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:56 - ID#411112)
Goldfevr.....that was very good,if you however wondered around you would have seen KITCO is a

featured site,and if I may say my page has more information outside of gold than any other out there,I have info that most won't know about for another 6 months.....I sell gold on the side why because I know its value and importance,I'am on a mission,that is why I do radio talk show 3 hours a day 5 days a week,and I don't charge Bart for al the plugs I give Kitco

Bully Beef
(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:58 - ID#259282)
Please... no one call the SPCA or whatever ... you know the animal protection people.
In all the funds on the planet I would have to choose the ones that took a beating... first. Who will get it next?

(Thu Jul 02 1998 21:58 - ID#267344)
BILLINGS, Mont. ( AP ) -- A federal jury on Thursday convicted top leaders of the anti-government Montana Freemen of various federal crimes, but deadlocked on the charge that they engaged in a massive assault on the nation's banking system.

also... a repost from sharefin - I am suprised this did not raise more eyebrows:

By the end of the summer, Jordan said, surveillance cameras will be scanning four Potomac River crossings -- the Sousa, Roosevelt, Wilson and 14th Street bridges -- that officials believe are vulnerable to terrorist attack. The images will be monitored by officials in the District's Office of Emergency Preparedness at the Reeves Municipal Center


- c

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:00 - ID#254112)
@Spock (Silver to dive IMVHO)
I do not expect that the digital effect will have any significant influence on the silver price within the next three years, maybe not even within the next ten years. Digital photography is still toooo expensive.

Depending on the Asian markets, where traditional photography has a great chance of expanding because it is much cheaper than the digital technology, it could even be exactly the opposite: the demand for silver could dramatically grow. I think, WB had done his homework in this respect, before he bought into the physical stuff. But me too: IMVHO.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:14 - ID#257136)
squirrel and your knock in the night" ;pst of 01:53
Been there and listened for it for several years.
Too much for this site, but I'll tell you this: where you live and where it's possible is these formerly great States formerly comprising a Great Nation.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:18 - ID#347457)
@6pak (DNA & Jewish ROOTS @ Heard this before EH! ( A new twist
OK, so what are you trying to say?! What is the meaning of bringing it up on this forum?

I don't think it has anything to do with where markets go.

NO, I am not a Jew!

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:18 - ID#434108)
I intended no offense, or criticism, or even hint thereof.
I am, in fact, puzzled by your seeming defensiveness.
I've appreciate your posts/shares;
whatever your motive ( s ) ...
your contributions/opinions/posts...
are of sincere interest to me...

In fact, I've written - in response to an earlier posting..
I believe it was yours ( ' a liberal friend...' )
what I'd intended as a post on kitco, an hour or two ago...

"CGI-Error in http headers.."..
has/have thus far,
foiled my attempts to provide/post this article - triggered by your earlier posting/commments.

I'd like the privilege of sending my, as yet un-published draft,
on to you.

If you are interested,
my e-mail address, is:

David Blair Macrory

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:23 - ID#431366)
Redneck - I eeezz runnin' low on shine - wer eeezzz Swamp Boy?
'n his gator too!
How yu 'n Miss Lois dewin'. Dat french lick 'n dee viagra steel puttin' steel in your lyfe? Har har!
We must fish da Gold out of de mud we do.
I jumped in 'n sunk up to my eyeballs I did.
Dem snappers swarmed all over me whilst I was tryin' to find dee Gold.
Time for a nip 'o shine it is.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:27 - ID#434108)
clone@ 21:58
why be surprised
at a world civilization
shuddering in fear
shaking in disbelief
of what we all
singley & collectively
already sense
is about
to befall us

we willingly let the paranoid power-mongers' cameras roll
feigning oblivious 11-th hour delight
preferring the terminal, midnight dance at the ball
grasping at the fading light of collapsing indian summer
the light of truth, freedom, independence, and prosperity
destined for the next millennium's civilization...
in the kernel ...
that is gold
our impending

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:29 - ID#431366)
What dem rushens do others mite too!
Dey could spy into my ancestors to figur if I qualified fer special benifits or not. Nope - I ain't go no Eskimo genes so my claims on huntin' grounds ain't any gud.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:29 - ID#411112) offence was taken by me and if that was the impression my post left sorry,its was more
of a responce to self advertising,I should have read your post a little slower...

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:35 - ID#411112)
Goldfevr....if that is your page.... open letter to a liberal friend...better check out my links

page,its posted

(Thu Jul 02 1998 22:46 - ID#286230)
Double spaced Posts
Squirrel: Sorry about all the screen that sometimes gets used up. The last one was a copy form a single spaced page using Netscape 4.05 and somehow it got double spaced. I assume it has to do with line length but it happens sometimes and not others.

I did not add any hard returns or alter it in any way--intentionally at least.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:04 - ID#344286)
Florida fires
Here's hopin everything is well with you and yours.

ted butler__A
(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:10 - ID#317184)
zero comex silver stocks?
While Goldman Sachs' taking of delivery of maybe 30 million ozs of silver this month ( they've taken 28 million in the last three days ) is extraordinary in that it represents 35% of the the total COMEX stock of 86 million ( an unprecedented occurance ) , it's almost beyond comprehension when viewed in a different perspective.

Of the remaining 56 million ounces ( not a particularly large amount ) , a certain percentage ( maybe a large percentage ) is owned by lots of individual investors, and is not available to the market at anywhere near current prices. These stocks, like GS's stocks, will remain in the COMEX and in full view, but are not remotely available to the market. While the price says otherwise, we may be at zero effective stock in the COMEX. Time will tell.

Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug
(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:17 - ID#432214)
Spock & Skip & Silver
Digital photo's are the wave of the future, however India is where the major demand for silver & gold originates. When 1 billion peasants have computers to process their digital photo's then silver will be history. Until then these farmers and working class folks will buy conventional cameras to take their photo's the same applies to China.

The bug

(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:27 - ID#43460)
Spock re silver dive - no way Jose!!!!!
While photographic use is the most important 19th century technology use for silver the 21st century will see something different. Sorry to the readers who've seen similar pages before, but this fundamental silver use is VERY VERY IMPORTANT! IMHO ( and in my very ignorant and non insider opinion ) of course.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:36 - ID#43460)
Spock, et al this is the government site posted some months back.
No sh*t, this is really hot stuff for the silver bug with stars in his eyes and silver mining stocks in his pocket!

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:42 - ID#229103)
Hang in there. Speaking only for myself, you are not suffering alone.

The predominance of gold bears on this "GOLD INVESTMENT" forum does make one wonder. I still love the one who posted that the bottom was in at 310, but his very next post said he was bearish and shorting.

(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:45 - ID#43460)
What use high temperature superconductors? Let your imagination work.
Imagine every doctor's office with an MRI scanner the size of the bed scanner on the old sci fi movies, costing not $10,000,000 but $10,000 so that instead of a $900 scan your insurance won't pay for you can get a $75 scan. Then the next generation after that will be a room temperature superconductor which will make a scanner the size of Bones' ( Star Trek ) handheld device!

Imagine an automobile which would run on four D cell batteries and recoup 99.999% of its energy whenever the brakes were applied!

Imagine a mass driver large enough to power a manned space ship into orbit!

And all requiring silver, silver more silver!

Sorry, I'm starting to drool. Must go to weigh my wife's old photograph album and compute silver recycling potential. ( 8-^ ) )

(Thu Jul 02 1998 23:50 - ID#248170)
@aurator. Reply re Date: Thu Jul 02 1998 16:37
Glad to find Kitco Forum back up and running again.

Thai women are free, thats their magic. As for their errant husbands, they die. slowly.

I am staying on a holiday island called Koh Samui in the Gulf of Thailand ( Gulf of Siam ) .

The building cranes are not moving that much in Bangkok but all the gold shops are open all day. ( except holidays of course )

Fashioned Thai gold = spot + a bowl of rice + a bit more ( esp. if 99.9% )

@ Vronsky: Yes correct the Yen has started slipping again. Paper you know !