Happy Fourth of July, Y'all.

We've already had 16 hrs of 7/4 and it's a beautiful day to wake up to.

Anyone seen any Fireworks online?

Take the time to type your Magnum Opus.

You have a tiny audience here that has borne the consequences of theoreticticians as you.

If your "philosophy" is so persuasive, then, you should come to our doors to collect the monies that support your group.

You haven't got the guts.

BTW, did you get some RYO? Up against the trend.

I wish not your money but rather I am trying to give you a point of view which I know most of you have a closed mind to. Knowing most here are intelligent it is interesting but I guess predictable to observe the reactions to even reasoned argument and persuasion. I guess class enmity is deeper than I even thought.

4:00 am...I re-awaken...get ready people...I Kevan Sarkis Khanamirian...MY LOVE IS ABOUT to SHAKE the planet...heh.heh..heh...I am going to finish what Buddy H...s' promise to his daughter was while he was sitting on the stage in Las Vegas...

I am LOVE..........heh...heh...heh...

and, the philosophers, and men of ideas and action, that made our life in these states.

Hail to the farmers, and the mechanics, The woodsman, the miner, the teachers, and the men who risked everything. Do we know any men or women of this caliber now?

God bless America.

her birthday???

GOD BLESS AMERICA...me and mine HAIL YOU and YOUR's...now I must leave...Andiamo...yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

ROR
I enjoy your logic, I admire your cool head against such overwhelming odds on this site. But, I suspect you may have hit the nail on the head with your "I guess class enmity is deeper than I even thought."
I do not agree with your point of view, but isn't the 4th of July a time to celebrate Freedom of Speach?
Your erudition is appreciated in this little corner of the world.

You finally have a message I agree with. But you left out the Lawyer's who crafted and help interpret this constitution. Please add them to the list of the noble.

ROR: What would you think of the idea of just leaving your brothers and sisters alone to live their lives as they see fit without interference from government or corporations or anyone else? Do you find that to be beyond the pale of consideration?

In the end you must face the real fact that you cannot, will not ever, be able to materially improve the lives of others beyond the personal, one on one. Elevating good works from the personal to the political will always lead to exploitation. One class against another. History is not on your side on that one.

BTW, I was referring to you, as elitist. In your own mind, you have already arrived at that station. You see yourself as a part of the ruling elite. In the New Socialist Order. ..... If your dream is realized, you will surely become that, which you now revile. Sad. ..... Zealots and zealotry - sad.

This is the united States, we don't do that class stuff here.
Except for the gommint.


Any kitcoites that might be in the area of Racine, Wisconsin , are invited to my house at 1308 South Main Street.
Our parade goes past here, and, we will have plenties- food/beveriges.

Has anyone any information on Durban Deeps, I was told that they are going to earn close to US$40m this year, due to the devaluation of the Rand?. Since the market capitalisation is only US$100m this looks cheap - but the shares have hardly moved? Any ideas?

Hate ta disagree but history is against your position. The New Deal and the economic and social programs along with the strength of trade unionism took us from Robber Baronism to wide spread prosperity until the tide turned against the labor movement in the early eighties. Since then the lot of most has been going down to the extreme inequality in economic terms now. The govt programs which gave bargaining power to people is what made some average people well off today. Without the programs and laws and economic regulations wide spread prosperity developing in this country would not have occured.

ROR: To the best of my knowledge, the primary framers of the Constitution were not lawyers. Perhaps that explains why the legal profession devotes so much attention to making it say things that were never intended. It's not so much lawyering as old fashioned sophistry.

Decry Roosevelt, Johnson and all the Economic regulatuion and the IRS and affirmative action and then state the economy is godd in spite of this. HELLO?

Yes ROR, there were many trained in the law at that crux of civilisation.
Nearly all "lawyers", now, are engaged in obfuscation.
It is merely sophistry now; the law.

The sophists do not deserve the word "sophistry".

All: Netscape is able to issue more irritations than a socialist. For some reason, I, suddenly, get a new browser with each post dwnload, request for post, submit .... in short every command brings up a fresh browser. ... It's ver. 3.0. .... Any quick solutions? I'm getting too ROR's on the screen at one time. ..... Just joking ROR.

From my reading of history I know of no socialist order tarting from scratch. Germany was a rural backwater when it started to develop industry, as was Britain, the US, you know all of the bad old wicked capitalistic nations. Also it seems that socialist orders always come after someone else builds a nation's industry. How can this be explained
except to say that socialist don't really build anything, but rather they steal what others have built? A further reading of history tells me that from the pool of workers you guys always praise some small fish gets big and starts an iron or oil empire and you hate his guts for being successful. Is that to say you like workers as long as they stay in their
place?

Our legal system is the envy of the world. You can adopt private ownership etcet but without regulations laws and rules it dont work. Our Lawyers are sought for counsel on how to develop a legal system in many countries yet at home they are ridiculed as well as the system by the elite who of course hate Lawyers for being advocates for the less enfranchised. SHAME!

You haven't mentioned anything about your gold positions.


George Washington- We are in your debt.

When did I say I hated successful people , fact is never. Further, you are right socialism does not work as well at building a 19th century type of industrialization. But it works well in preserving Democracy and freedom in societies once they are developed and allowing them to further develop by giving everyone a chance for creativity. So once the basic industrial society is developed socialism is a growth enhancer and democratizer. Call it a life preserver and giver.

this multiplicity of windows that propagate each time you hit the submit button. Make my vote: Nyet.

Within the admirable truncations which many find convivialI have now been awakened by a 78 and I must cook Artichokes.who knew.

ROR, you are doing an outstanding job of putting forth the standards of the Cold War. Perfect discussion to put up the old Red Scare EH!

You certainly have created an active discussion regarding "SOCIALISTS" - New - Old - Democratic - Liberal - Christian - National - Social Democratic - ETC. ETC.

In addition, Communism is also a difficult political dogma to give insight as to which of the communists division's a person promotes or condemns, as in Leninist - Marxist - Stalinist - Trotskyist - Apparatchik ETC. ETC.

Maybe you forgot the Hitler Party ? I have taken the liberty to remind you and others, and provided some information for you.

HITLER and the WORKER'S PARTY ( NAZI ) "Lest We Forget EH!"

On April 1, 1920, Hitler left the army for good. Also on this day, the name of the German Worker's Party was changed to the National Socialist German Worker's Party-from which Nazi emerged.

http://tesuque.cs.sandia.gov/~bbooth/docs/rise.html

...on this July 4th.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/sw/front.html

DeTocqueville and the Character of Americans

proliferating on my screen as I jump back to read old posts.

Moon saying hi, I guess.

Hi, Moon.

Rather than unloading on socialism, may I invite you to join
the rest of us in celebrating the birth of a nation where
freedom of speech and thought is a guaranteed right.

Adolf Hitler soon had all fo Germany's most powerful institutions surrender to him and pass out of existence. He appointed Reich governers in all of the states to remove the local governments and dismiss officials. New one's were Nazis.

Hitler also abolished the seperate states and made them supject to the central power of the Reich, which was in his hands. When he addressed the Reichstag on January 30, 1934, one year after he took chancellorship, he looked back on his achievements.

In the past year, he had overthrown the Weimer Republic, destroyed all poitical parties but his own, wiped out labor unions, took the Jews out of public and proffesional life, abolished freedom of speech and the press, and co-ordinated the political, social, economic, and cultural life of the German people under Nazi Rule. In August, President Hindenburg died, and Hitler took over. He was known as Fuehrer rather than president.
http://tesuque.cs.sandia.gov/~bbooth/docs/nazification.html

http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/1969
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Large Australian Insurance Firm May Not Make Deadline
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/1963
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We now have three of Australia's biggest companies saying that they probably won't make y2k compliance.

Our biggest bank; National Bank.
Our biggest telephone co; Telstra
Our biggest insurer; AMP.

What does this mean....

I received a nice letter from the local bank, assuring folks that they had achieved Y2K compliance and wouldn't have any problems. A couple of days back, I had some business with the VP, and after I complimented her on the letter. This is great news, says I. And will surely be good for business.

Yes, she said. She sure hopes it works. Turns out the electronic teller right outside wouldn't accept any 00 credit cards. The processing of them was farmed out to another company, which couldn't process them! The y2k was only for our own files, I guess.

And down the slippery slope we slide.

A gift; --from whom to who.

Now, the fact is; some of we "givers" might be a recalcitrant lot.

We give to our wives, immediate family, the wife's extended family, with reluctance.

As I guess, ROR, you are a lawyer in New York.

How about making a name for youself- investigating any one of the hundred-or-so poverty agencies in your town.

You know, the milk of human kindness racket.

TVX is really down now.

ROR, do you think that TVX is vastly oversold now?

Kinross seems to be somewhat the same.

I don't care for ABX anymore.

Good night gentlemen.

Promey

Warm Rabbits!

Hope gold slides up that slope just a fast as everything else tumbles.
There are going to be a lot of hopefulls about.

I went into a photo shop the other day and bought a digital camera.
Asked the salesman if it was Y2k compliant.
Without blinking an eyelid he said, "Sure is."
When I asked him if I could get that in writing his smile changed.

Ended up having a short conversation with him re Y2k compliance.
With all the other salespeople listening in too.
Ended up they didn't know a thing about Y2k.
They were just doing their job.

One of the salespeople had just bought a PC and queried this.
And was amazed that he needed to check whether it was Y2k compliant.
Needless to say they were all spellbound and thinking deep thoughts by the time the camera was bought and I left.

Ignorance is rife.
Salesmanship is rife too.
So is B*S*T

It amazes me how easily some come out with their Y2k compliancy confidence. They say there was nothing to it.
Others are taking a much more cautious stance.
I suppose each must be evaluated on their own circumstance.

But I do believe that there are many, very, very ignorant people out there,
Who are all to willing to say "It's okay, I'm okay, don't worry."

This is pure salesmanship.
or should it be salespersonship?

The legal-beagles will give this one no peace.

I guess the full truth will unfold
As time doesn't stand still for long.

All
This warm rabbit, multiple windows mania that is coming to a computer near you, I don't know why we need it. On the mac, one merely holds the mouse button down and a menu will appear on screen, on Windows you can do the same with the Right mouse button. If you CHOOSE to have multiple windows open, that's find and dandy ( Yankee Doodle Dandy, today ) , but please, let's murder this infant in its cradle*, yes?

BTW
I recall some years ago some lousy salesman trying to say that Win was better than Mac because Win has two mouse buttons. More ain't always better, eh?

*"Better to murder an infant in its cradle than nurse an unacted desire."



here nursey, nursey.

God bless America this July 4th, our Independence Day, in the year of Our Lord, 1998. And may God destroy those in our country who would tear down and destroy those institutions which made our country great. Freedom and Gold for everyman. It is our heritage.

Start spreading survival recipes
http://www.cleveland.com/news/pdnews/metro/cscruggs.htm
Entertaining if not imformative...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bennett fears Y2K financial disaster
http://www.desnews.com/biz/w50vyvbo.htm

Ya that's the graph. Hey check your e-mail. If your ready I have 1.5MB more to send your way

Fire away.

Email heading your way...

There is 22 acres of land in Oregon for which I paid $22,000 for 15 years ago. In the last 15 years I have found out that I have lost all of my freedom to that property except one. My freedom to pay property tax!

You will say that it may be neccessary to put on new restrictions to usage for property to insure that the world is safe for the Unborn Baby Whales and other worthy causes. But when I bought that land there were certain conditions attatched to it and the land was priced as such. The People Republic of Oregon has sence changed the conditions in such a way to make the property nearly worthless. In so doing they have conficated over $100,000 dollars from me, I didn't even get so much as a Thank You Comrad letter from them. The Jews in Europe found out how much freedom you have when you lose your economic rights? I'm not just talking about Hitler's third reich, I'm talking about when the state can with impunity seize control of property becouse they believe they have a higher calling to insure "society" ( meaning pals of the powerful ) is best served.

You guys get so upset when a company "screws" their customers, hell congress almost went to war over a $1.00 service fee for cash machines. I actually lost $100,000 for someones elses favorate charity and the left doesn't see where this could be wrong

http://www.itpolicy.gsa.gov/mks/yr2000/paper30fp.htm

Someone is getting concerned....
From Gov't IT policy.

My second one left my box and should be coming to you soon

Contingency Planning for the Year 2000 Software Problem
http://www.itpolicy.gsa.gov/mks/yr2000/paper31fp.htm

Let me know when to send the #2 of the series

We will get some more done tonight, I have to go to bed

To all--aurator is a man of his word. The "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds arrived in the mail as promised, with the above inscription.Namaste. Also Mr. aurator--give the Gold to your sister. Tell her it is from Auric, with best wishes.

Nationalism is drifting,a leaky teaky. The borders of the US are open, a flood of migrants waving a different flag are coming in. The jobs are being shipped out by the " capitalists" and the CEO of Blue Cross has a salary in the millions. The politicians are for sale, who trusts the police. Happy fourth

The constitution has floundered on the rocks of special interests.

I'm still mildly bullish, I'm betting on our ability to overthrow the idealouges of any stripe, and pragmatically solve our problems. We will have to belive in ourselves enough to change our constitution and become a direct democracy...the computer can untangle this thing.

A variation, last week popped out for a beer the landlord ( owner ) as the conversation went introduced me as a PC scaremonger whereupon the"knowledgeable" twit beside me said all hype where I work all our PC's are comliant and so are our suppliers & customers no problem trust me I'm an accountant...............I said why are so many companies world wide having such big budgets ....ah they are being smart ME to the twit so they are understating profits ? because there are rules on accruals carried over.

I moved away when I was given the solialist crap about Taxes and wealth distribution.

This got me thinking there must be lots of folks who have a PC and have been told it is compliant and thats the end of the issue .....I have woken up quite a few but they are people with open minds

as you said the full truth will unfold

Go Gold the more physical we buy the better /faster Gold moves up

Y2k will in all probability delay elections in the USA in year 2000. BC will still be president by decree until problem is resolved. This possibility, to me, is depressing.

Don't count on it he will not complete his 2nd term the thoughts should be which devil will replace him...?

go GOLD

Your real life accounts of waking people up to Y2K square with my own. I have a coworker that I have discussed this topic with for several months. He has mostly agreed with me on its seriousness. He had a somewhat shocked look on his face today. He said "This thing is real, isn't it." It finally hit him in the gut.

ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I appreciate having a new window open when I click a url.
If the url takes time to get a reply, I can continue reading K1 'till it loads.
If I remember to turn the lights out ( click the close box ) when I leave a room ( good habit my depression-era parents taught me ) , then I don't have extra windows.

Fire away at will.
No 2 in and processing.

------------
Auric
I too have my "Lest we forget"
Aurator June '98

Even Helen has picked it up and reading.
Ahhhh to share such knowledge.
-------------------
CPO
Thanks mate.
I think I overdo the Y2k theme here, far too much.

But it is real.
It is out there.
And it's coming real soon.
Under 300 working days left.

If Y2k can't lift the POG
What do we have left???

And I would guess Y2k will keep BC in power for many years.
He has the Power, the Will, and the Passion.
To do as HE wants.

A true leader in todays global world. sic

I hope he is replaced, but I doubt it. The media and powers that be will save him. The odds of his impeachment are decreasing. Starr has had several setbacks; The end of the Whitewater investigation, the release of Susan McDougal, dropping of tax evasion charges against Hubbel, Monica has two sharp attorneys who will get her out of her mess and besides she will not want to be responsible for bringing down BC's presidency.

Besides, BC and his myriads of spokespeople will stall and delay his demise for quite a while. IMHO.

Nice talking to you CPO@AU

Regards,

The Shadow

Y2000 Compliance Issues - Problem Statement
http://www.itpolicy.gsa.gov/mks/yr2000/paper22fp.htm

My thoughts--If Y2K inflicts real damage over the next 18 months, the American people will turn on him with a vengeance. The booming, low inflation economy in the US is Clinton's ultimate trump card. When that goes, look out. It won't just be Clinton who takes a fall.

"There has been a building chorus from this source that Japan has no further choice but to literally "print" their way out of their present morass.

Australians reading this will recall that recently, a spokesman for a new political party ( One Nation ) had the temerity to suggest that it might be a good idea to "print" the money required to offer people in the bush low interest rate ( 2% ) loans so they could get back on their feet. The suggestion was trumpeted from one end of the country to the other as a perfect example of the lunacy represented by One Nation's political "platform".

Strange, isn't it? We have exactly the same suggestion being made in regard to Japan, and not a word said agin it - in Australia or anywhere else."

Nothing strange about it Bill. Japan is in a deflationary recession. Even Milton Friedman says printing is OK in that situation. One Nation just wants to print for financial expediency.

Live Long and Prosper.

I just about cried when I read your story on your land investment in Oregon. I have to think ROR is playing with us re his socialist propaganda. On the other hand, if he is in truth a lawyer as someone said, I guess he could believe in what he writes here. ( Apologies to all the fine lawyers among us! ) And he does serve a purpose, he stirs the juices.

Some people seem to ONLY post negative comments regarding PM's.

Perhaps after the INCESSANT beatings that some of us have taken, I might be reacting
somewhat sensitively to Spock's incessant negativity regarding gold and silver. Is he shorting
the market and hoping to scare others out of their long positions?

Can SOMEONE with INTELLIGENT PERSPECTIVE let me know whether Spock's latest
posting is credible??? ...or is it just another "spin" from the shorts who have cause us
goldbugs to suffer, and suffer, and suffer...

Frankly, I'm at the point of almost being depressed before I even read anything that Spock or
Disney have to say, because it is a foregone conclusion that it will be more bad news for us
goldbugs...or should I say gold fanatics?

Skip, I am long on gold. Iam not a short. I'm just telling it how it is. This is the worst bear for 20 years. There just doesn't seem to be any good news out there.

I, like you, am hoping that gold will go to $US400 tommorrow. Can't see it happening though.

Live Long and Propser.

Auric

I bumped into a friend who has a senior position in one of the NZ banks. I discussed such things as Y2K with him recently. He was shocked when I told him about the NAB ( National Australia Bank ) link we saw here a few days ago, in which the CEO said that he could not guarantee the NAB would be compliant, and further noone could give these guarantees.. His advice internally in his own bank was that everything was hunky dory. I gave him kitco's url.

My friend had also had not thought about electricity. Most NZ power is Hydroelectric, and that is one heck of a blessing. But how many switches are there that control dams? and then the reticulation and distribution? If he's reading this, he's the first person here to know who I am, I trust I have been discrete enough. And, welcome to the Board, if you are already here.

He will be tossed out on his ear - one way or the other.
If he tries emergency extension he will have an emergency of his own.
His Presidency will cease when the reins of power are taken from him.
If a significant portion of people in America still support him it will serve to help us separate them from us Americans. ( note that I do not equate those who happen to live here with those who are Americans ) .
What happens to those non-Americans will depend on how insistent they are in pushing oppressive government down our throats. The most insistent will have a lead or steel-core enema - through and through. That way there will be more food, fuel, TP and Gold to go around for us Americans.

Y2K may offer an opportunity to speed the dissolution of political correctness and excise the socialist cancer in our government
I should get a scope on my AK. We in these USofA may have yet another war of independence in a few years.

But if has has declared a state of emergency,
And has called for martial law and has the military behind him.

Who's going to argue?
Who's got the biggest stick????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One example of state computers going down on 1st July98.
Must be more to come out yet???
http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/98/Jul/02/city/GUNS02.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spock
Paulene has a huge political movement against her. ( by our country's standards )
Her arguement ( 2% loans ) is no different to what exhists today except that they charge more for them.
As to printing money - well that happens everywhere.
We all know about how that is done - don't we.

I support her call to reduce the downfall of our rural economy.
It's bad enough after the last ten years rule by Labor/Liberal parties.

Speaking as a former Kiwi.
NZ financed it's entire world war effort on zero interest finance.
And after the war helped to get many back onto their feet with 2% loans.

Money is only expensive when the lenders desire unscrupulous rates.
It's all salesmanship.....

They don't use their money to back up their mouth.
They use OUR money, labor, sweat, tears and lives!
That goes for economic, environmental, and social
socialists. The latter are Republicans and religious
zealots who are against abortion or birth control
but don't want to pick up the tab for unwanted kids.

Some of us are at our best when we are helping our fellow human beans. We all have this tendency to a greater or lesser extent, to help our families, neighbours and friends in times of need. Compassion is the counterweight to power in a balanced life.

ROR enjoys his calling. I am sure he has many grateful crients. I also think ROR is a happy man. He has not, to my recollection flamed anyone for disagreeing with him. And he has been on this line for some time.

No, I think many do ROR an injustice.

He is correct when he says, at its purest, Law is a noble cause, fighting many of the same battles that goldbugs fight. Fighting the Government, its tentacular agencies whose prime purpose is to grow at the expense of individual rights. It is lawyers who have stood in front of the train of consensus views to say...STOP. THINK,,,,Don't do it Mr Gobmint man. Don't do it with the manipulated will of the people. Remember, who we are as a country, as a civilisation, as humanity. Don't act in this ignoble away towards a citizen.


That is why lawyers are the first against the wall in popular revolutions. Lawyers, knowing the Law ( made by other human beans before them ) know when rights and freedoms are being debased. . Lawyers are the most dangerous people in a revolution....

Rights have been won by bloodshed and revolution. Rights are protected only by lawyers. But, then again, you gotta pick your lawyer, and, you know what? If you're in trouble because the gobmint wants to pin something on you, or it wants to take your land, call ROR. I am sure that's what his crients are saying.

Thing is, ROR, this battling that you so enjoy, this defence of Freedom, is not demonstrably possible without the belief that the individual can determine what is best for himself only. And that means capitalism rather than Statism or Collectivism. Because the only truly enduring collective, is a collective of Free Sovereign individuals who CHOOSE to gather for the common good, the common wealth. Much of your rhetoric implies a coercion that is anathema to FREE THINKING goldbugs, such as gather here. I am glad for your reasoned contrariness.

I have a hundred lawyer jokes, yawn...The crooked lawyer is more a Hollywood phantasm than reality, I suspect. Sure there are bent lawyers, but there are bent electricians too. Noone chastises all electricians for one of their unknown brethren's crimes. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, unless they're lawyers, eh? Just remind me what the word prejudice means again, someone.


Lawyers have been scape-goated for a long, long, time.

Some lawyers are actually martyrs for FREEDOM. One day, I hope, their names are remembered as such............

Grizz's post at 07:02 is one of many reasons why the executive branch of the US government will not push this. I really think Y2K has taken them by surprise. For good or ill, the American people are armed to the teeth. Therefore, I believe the Feds will fold rather than risk a second, bloodier Civil War.

But one small correction to your last post.
The military will not back up BC.
When commanders must order their troops to clap for BC
I don't think those guys will fire on Americans for him.
The disrespect - no I am wrong there - the downright hate most troops and their commanders have for that draft dodging traitor gives joy and relief to my heart. He has done his best to destroy morale and combat readiness by shoving gay and feminist rights down the military's throat. Queers and their ilk were a joke in non-combat units. In combat units when the going gets tough - the queers and their ilk have a short life expectancy.

Spock, I am 100% in agreement with you. Using history as a guide and a tremendous amount of reading on the subject I find it very easy to believe the commonly held predictions of 35 on the XAU and 100 for gold. I am currently long on gold but after this hoped for little summer rally takes place I will be a short. Wishing for something to happen won't make it change. We all wish we could go back and be 18 again. We all wish gold was like it was. Neither are, nor will they ever be again.

On the other hand, if the Feds do get nasty, then we all better lay low and get hold of our Gold!

Grizz

I find your last post quite curious:
"In combat units when the going gets tough - the queers and their ilk have a short life expectancy."

From the Armies of Ancient Greece, to those of Nazi Germany all men have a short life expectancy in war time. The armies of Greece, I believe, encouraged Philadelphia. For if the men loved each other they would make better soldiers. You would not have necessarily known, in the past, those men who were homosexual in the army. They laid down their lives for their country. Would you deprive them that honour?

No, your homophobia, like mine, is prejudice.

A lawyer friend of mine is almost as heavily armed as I. He likes bumper stickers that say "Live Free or Die" and "You Will Get My Guns When You Pry Them From My Cold, Stiff Fingers".
The two of us ( and more ) will be back to back and shoulder to shoulder at the ramparts of the defenses of our community.
But there are wuss exceptions - and if they so much as offer a can of soup to the socialist-dependent beggars demanding our surrender - we will have more soup for ourselves.

They should call a moratorium on litigation,
If we are going to enter another depression.
After all who needs concrete boots?

Expenses Prior to 2000 AD
Initial software repairs------------------------------------$530,000,000,000
Secondary "bad fix" software repairs------------$50,000,000,000
Test library repairs-----------------------------------------$75,000,000,000
Data base repairs------------------------------------------$454,000,000,000
Hardware chip replacements-------------------------$76,000,000,000
Hardware performance upgrades-----------------$150,000,000,000

Subtotal-------------------------------------------------------$1,335,000,000,000

Expenses After 2000 AD
Litigation and damages--------------------------------$300,000,000,000
Post-2000 damages-------------------------------------$580,378,125,000
Post-2000 recovery expenses---------------------$1,405,843,750,000

Subtotal-------------------------------------------------------$2,286,221,875,000
TOTAL--------------------------------------------------------$3,621,221,875,000

From one who prefers to swim than sink...

We do not want you to lay low. Do you remember the movie "High Noon"?
Some of us will be out there trying to persuade the boys in camo to join our side. Most of them will. But we may need some help - especially against those not here to help us. It is not the camos we need to worry about - it is their kiss-butt political leaders ( some of whom are in uniform ) .

Grizz

We agree on that. Dependency is a drag on freedom. One, day, when I am alert, I shall try tell the group about the reparations ( read guilt-money ) that are and will be paid to Maoris for land confiscations, and rank injustices of well over a hundred years ago. There is much state dependency amongst the Maori. There are many, many causes of this. But, when the tax-payers' purse opens, noone stands back.

I watched the video Philadelphia tonight for the first time. It is an eye opener. Life is very varied, no? The pariahs in any group despoil the reputations of the rest.This is prejudice.

A brave man will not be known as such, until circumstances demand it and other men see it.



nytol

What may contribute to a shorter life-expectancy than their comrades is their in-your-face and down-your-throat behavior. I can tolerate most anyone's beliefs and personal foibles - as long as they don't try to force me to conform to their ways. Some of the homos I served with were darn good at their jobs. If we did not respect each other's beliefs we at least left each other alone regarding them. But there were the few who were bent on proselytizing regardless of our objections. THOSE had best watch their backs.

Heh heh, I will keep that in mind. Most of the old K2 was good natured fun. Plus some very good posts were made there. I miss it. Some played devil's advocate over there, which often stimulated some good discussions, eh! Go Gold!

Date: Fri Jul 03 1998 12:11
tolerant1 ( HEY! HAGGIS_A, NAMASTE' and now NEVER TIRED OF BEING AN ) ID#373284:
AMERICAN...not NO way...NOT NO HOW PAL...GOD BLESS AMERICA and that's that and this conversation is done...


=================

So, what do Americans actually DO on the 4 July ???????

Have a good one...................

Addressed to who-so-ever will read;

The worst will not eventuate...

One needs only to recall, ( as Dad can ) the really tremendous effort of Eisenhower in finishing WW2.

He organised the planned movement of millions of men over the land, sea and air of a continent.

The vast supplies of food, of amunitions, of clothing, medical services and supplies - war material in millions of tons, millions of units, all to a planned outcome - and successful.

He organised the conquest of the greatest war machine ever created; with a better organised, a more humane and purposeful war machine; he planned and provided for the organisation , the clothing, the feeding of many millions of civilian refugees, and all importantly gave them not only life, but a real hope for the future, and the means of achieving that hope.

He changed the entire face and future of Europe, and mark this well, he did it all with the willing cooperation of other devoted men and woman.

And - without computers.

And if ever the worst comes upon us again. Another Eisenhower and another generation of devoted men and women will do the same for the race again.

Here ends today's sermon.
As ever,
there will be no collection,
but there is a box at the door,
and any donation,
that the generous,
amongst the congregation,
may care to offer,
will be used most faithfully,
for the propagation of the WORD.... John Laird

sharefin

looks like a lot of zeros in those numbers.

Now.

How to get a slice?

http://x13.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=367010792&CONTEXT=899549375.1499594760&hitnum=44

Opinion on NAB's Y2k statement and the dependancy of banks upon banks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Current world population
http://futures.wharton.upenn.edu/~daniel74/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Outsourcing Gotchas: Contracts filled with year 2000 surprises
http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9806295502
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email chatter:
ON NEIGHBORHOOD PLANNING ( For Those Who Stay Put! )

From what you write it sounds like you believe that staying in a city is a viable option.

But then you write:
if the power goes out in January? Who has fireplaces? Want to suggest they
consider installing inserts? With gas not being pumped, there would be no
snowplows or emergency vehicles; what skills are available within a few
blocks? With no jobs to go to.

The above implies the following to me:
NO FOOD AVAILABLE IN STORES
so no-one will have food except for what they have stored up in advance.

Three days without food means some pretty cranky neighbours.
After a week without food I'm sure your neighbours will remember you
as the person who tried to get them to prepare, so OBVIOUSLY you must
have prepared, so you must have food...

I wouldn't want to be a Mormon living in a city at this point;
who doesn't know that they are supposed to have at least one years
worth of food stored away? Most of them don't, but that won't stop
people from 'visiting' them.

I guess what I'm saying is either be living in the country by this point
( farming neighbours means they likely have lots of stored food 'on-the-hoof' )
or don't tell your city neighbours what you've got, and keep a very low
profile until either the die-off is complete, or food-in-stores returns.

Maybe I'm wrong, and your 'community awareness' attempt will work,
and all your neighbours will buy a years worth of food, and convert
over to wood heat, and buy a winters worth of wood. They'll do this
instead of that vacation to Disneyland that they've been promising
their kids. They'll quit smoking and drinking and use the money saved
for the food. They'll turn off their cable TV to use the money saved
to buy the woodstove. They'll lower their current standard of living
to free up money for other necessary purchases so that they can continue
living in the future.

I doubt it. I haven't been able to convince any of my family members,
or any of my friends, let alone complete strangers that Y2K will be
more than a small bump on the road.

Prepare for yourself. Prepare for the people you are responsible for ( kids ) .
If you can, get way more food than you need, for when family/friends come
( and they will, if they are close enough to get to you before the roads close )
unless you are willing to drive them away ( and if they are starving, you
*will* have to drive them away, if they think you have food ) .

I think the appropriate phrase is "lifeboat ethics". You can't save everyone.
And everyone, that is close enough to get to you, that knows that you have
prepared ( and have food ) , is someone that you'll either have to accept into
your 'lifeboat', or be prepared to physically prevent their entry...

Easy
Sit back and buy gold and silver.....

Or penny dreadfuls like canabeera

Grizz
Now that's the truth. It seems like ever since I got online ( I found kitc within an hour or two ) I've met goldbugs around the world. We have several common characteristics, ( I am too salty to list them, perhaps other can ) one of which is a desire to go a way of our own chosing. Not to be dictated to. We are, at bottom ( and I use that word facetiously ) believers in the freedom of the individual. That one manifestation of that freedom is to hold gold. Because, in part, we distrust gobmints.

And when I am at my least paranoid, I wonder:

How long will this marvelous WWW be allowed to continue? This geometric spreading of free thought?

really, gone to stack the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs

For James ..
The average American gold analyst will NOT realize
that the SA miming profits will go up with a drop
in the currency. The second quarter results come out
this month .. BUT thats only announced here in the local
papers..
By the time these results have been compiled in report
and comparison form by the Mining Journal for example ..
about 6 more weeks will have passed.
The first week of September should see foreign
buying of SA golds start to pick up and then probably
in Europe first. The economics are well known locally
and institutional buying should commence here soon.
American analysts will probably think the 2nd quarter
results are a fluke .. they have a good chance of
missing this market.

Apparently, a decrease in the Rand value sparks rises in the JSE Gold Index

1993: Relatively small Rand/$ FX loss sparks 200+% rise in the JSE Gold Index

1995/96: Relatively modest Rand/$ FX loss sparks 70% rise in the JSE Gold Index

1998: Rand/$ FX just lost about 34% in recent months ( but accelerated last week. Subsequently JSE Gold Index soars more than 35% ( 800 to 1080 ) in last five trading sessions.

Like ol' cigar face once asked: Is this the end of the beginning, or the beginning of the end?

Methinks Randgold & Exploration ( RANGY ) , Harmony Gold ( HMGCY ) & Durban Deep ( DROOY ) will soon soar!

Pertinent charts. Delete extra letters "en" in word "golden" before posting to the Internet:

http://www.golden-eagle.com/intra-day/JGAI3m.html

http://www.golden-eagle.com/south_africa/rand_currencies.html

That's the message I am trying to send to my parents and my wife's parents. Slowly getting there.Very slowly.
Used to be whenever I brought up the subject their eyes would glaze over and you could see the mental shutters
rolling into place. So I've been very crafty and am mounting a long term campaign of gentle reinforcement using
news items that agree with what I say. Still very difficult though , since both my in-laws and parents are middle-aged
people who seem to have undergone what I call a process of "mental ossification" which renders them
somewhat impervious to change . So I'm essentially having to plan on their behalf with the help of my wife.
And even she is lukewarm at this stage although improving fast.

The trouble with most people is that they won't believe the reality of a thing until they see others believing it too. And then
of course by then it is already usually too late. That's how mass buying panics and market crashes start. All at once the herd
surges forward.
http://x13.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=367007385.1&CONTEXT=899549375.1499594760&hitnum=37

If when reloading the Kitco window one uses the right button on the mouse ( win 95 ) or the reload icon on the browser instead of the submit option on the Kitco screen, one will not get multiplying windows.

Your very last phrase will be the toughest to adhere to. Men will be more forceful and likely armed but will be easier for a guy to deal with - with fewer emotional repurcussions. But knowing this, these men will send the women and kids in first. How hard it will be to refuse the starving babies and the crying children. Difficult it will be to refuse solace to the winsome young woman - though we may have made room for a few already. Always we would have to consider that the distraught young woman with an infant in her arms and one or two tugging at her skirts ( more attractive in a dress - and she knows it ) may likely have a 200 pound gorilla friend who will be knocking on the door the next day - perhaps with HIS friends.
Pretty soon they may find they don't need you. What use is a computer geek anyway. We got his food, guns, Gold, and his woman too.
Our last defense may be a loyal 100-pound companion who will sink his teeth into anyone threatening your person or die trying.

I read the summary of history. It's basically not wrong but it is also not right, because it reduces a histrical development to something which develops without environment, as if such a development takes place all on it's own.

It doesn't help Americans to understand the situation in Germany out of all the factors which they felt and had to feel in their own time.

For instance: there is never made any reference to the fact that there was another dictatorial regime already up and running, very close to Germany. The stalinist regime had just finished to execute the greatest genocide in human history: They killed off between 7 and ten million Ukrainian farmers through famine in the most firtile agricultural coutry in Europe.

The Germans of the 1920th and 30th observed what happened in their neighborhood and they observed how the western "democracies" responded to what was happening. They observed how Walter Duranty, a good friend of Roosevelt, reported about this genocide in the New York Times. ( This drug addicted bastard got the Pulitzer Price for his rotten lies. )
Do you think the Germans of that time had a good reason to trust the western "democracies"? The proclamation of the "proletarian dictatorship" seemed to be an enthusiatically embraced thing, embraced by these western "democracies".

These observations made the idea popular in Germany, during the late 20th and the early thirties, that the threat of a communist dictatorship could only be coutered by the establishment of a bourgeois dictatorship. And the socalled "democrats" of the Weimar parties didn't earn a lot of trust
because western style democracy was regarded as a dirty trick to get Germany into a communist dicatorship. ( See what happened to Kerenski and the socalled February Revolution in Russia of 1917. It was followed by the Wall Street sponsored October revolution. )

I do not like what happened during the 12 years of Hitler's dictaorship.
But I also do not trust the western war criminals. After all, the victorious war criminals are more dangerous than the vanquished ones.

Alberich the Dwarf

http://www.gao.gov/AIndexFY98/abstracts/ai98145.htm

Someone's getting wary of our net...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinion about banks.
~~~
Can someone please tell me exactly what will happen if banks ( any Bank/a bank ) do not get their computer systems 2000 compliant?

=Noone can tell you that. But we can make a pretty good guess.

So far, I haven't heard anyone say, for sure. Yeah, some have said it's possible their systems might shut down, but a good explanation of why that might happen, has not been relayed to me.

=Computers are very good at handling situations that they have been programmed to handle. They are even good at handling exceptional situations, if they have been programmed to handle them. The problem here is that most software has not been programmed to handle Y2K.

The real question here, I think, is this particular one. No one knows for sure how the non-compliant computers are going to greet the year 2000, at banks, or anywhere.

=Exactly.

Please, don't give me any survivalist , or any "Jesus is returning soon" crap, that is not an answer to my question!

=He is, but that's not the point.

I prefer someone who is in the computer programing field to explain this to me, but I'll take whoever I can get, so long as what you say can be backed up.

=Well, I'm about to graduate with a BS in Aviation Computer Science. My experience pales in comparison to others here. I'm sure they will correct any blatant errors.

I know I sound harsh, but I'm really tired of these alarmist who can only tell me, "it's gonna be bad buddy, run for the hills!", that in itself, without any detailed and knowledgable explanation, is
useless.

=Please excuse the alarmists. Most of them have already reached their conclusions and usually don't have time to bring others up to speed. I am an alarmist, BTW.

It's pretty obvious that no one ( banks and all ) will have updated all their computer systems by 2000. OK, I will give them the benefit of the doubt, who knows. Yes, I am concerned as to what could happen when the date flips over to January 2000. If the computer simply starts thinking the date is 1900, that's not too much of a problem, the bank will know 1900 just means 2000, and
so on.

=But the computers will not know. A lot of the problems deal with dates that range from 1999 to 2000. For instance, how will a computer compute interest from Dec 31, 1999 to Jan 1, 2000? Will the computer decide you are 99 years late on your loan payment when it computes that your next payment is due in 00? There are a plethora of other possibilities.

Accounts will not vanish into thin air, business can continue as usual, just that all our bank statements will say 1900 on them. Anyway, that's along the line of the way I think things will happen. I'm not losing sleep over this.

=You are assuming that the only use for the current date is to print it on statements and such. The problems occur when software uses the current date to do calculations.

Anyway, I'm suprised no one really knows quite what is going to happen when 2000 rolls around. Can't simulated tests be done to see what will happen?

=In some instances, they can. And tests have been done. Most of these tests result in the system crashing.

Seems they could do the simulation with a program. The only problems I can see, are that the computer will think it's 1900, and anything that involves comparing dates, could be troublesome.

=Think about that statement a little more. Think of all the comparing of dates that are done in a banking environment.

I also understand, that if any info dated year 2000 is entered into the non-compliant computer, it will not recognize that date, and I suppose it would reject that data. I find it very hard to believe that the whole system would just freeze.

=Well, I think the system "freezes" due to the internal clock, not entered data. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. But then they'll try to correct me if I'm right, too.

So, I think I raise a good question here, and am interested in some informed opinions.
Oh no, this post sounds so crass and full of attitude, oh well! Maybe the fact that I went to Gary North's Formum, is the reason for the bad attitude, lol : )

=Like I said, they've already reached their conclusions and, for the most part, don't have the time to bring you up to speed.

Price of admission to my refuge is one ton of food and related supplies.
That is what I am telling those friends or others who learn of my preparations and wish to be included in my refuge. Some of them figure all they need is a gun, a box of ammo and a bagful of groceries. They figure I will feed them in return for them helping me with guard duty. That possibility is why I am stocking way lots extra. BUT - they are not to assume that. Their toll is one ton - to help pay for THEIR friends and relatives who will come begging at the door. I believe they will find it easier to be stingy with their supplies than with mine.

I respect 'Dad', wise by experience and thoughtfulness. They problem is that our infrastructure is, essentially, all computer controlled. No one sees this and so it appears that they aren't there at all.

No modern oil refinery can be operated by hand. Same for oil platforms. Same for interbank transaction and settlement systems. Basicly Eisenhower and Co created a huge 'system' made up of people which actually was the forerunner of the modern mega-coporation. All the human elements have been replaced with computer technology. And there is no 'fall back' capability.

In the USA there are NO MANUAL CONTROLS for switching trains in the entire country! Load/generation balancing for power generation is extremely touchy and REQUIRES VAST COMPUTING AND COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS TO BE DONE EFFECTIVELY.

Our biggest problem, as citizenry and consumers, is that we are ignorant of what makes our modern way of life possible. We are clueless. We do not recognize the thin thread that supports energy, electricity, transportation, commerce and banking. If we did know we'd be scared witless.

If things crash big time, then we would be forced to live an 18th century lifestyle without 18th century infrastructure, attitudes or skills. If you would like to try this then simply walk away from your home into a nearby field or wood and say to yourself, "I have no food. I have no tools. I have no skills or knowledge on surviving . My world has been shuttered and I am on my own now." about 20 times...and don't look back, just keep on walking. Plan your night without food or shelter.
Next go to the grocery store, to the Mall, to he gasoline station. Think about the differecne between these two worlds. Think about the transition. And think about the dead who will not make it from one side to the other.

All in favor of higher prices for HGMCY.

At today's prices, what is the approximate cost of a ton of the food that you would recommend?

To keep it more on topic, maybe I should ask how much Gold would it take to buy a ton of food.

They'll easily fill out their ton with cases of ammo, carboys of water, cans of fuel, and a collection of steel tools. They may try to call you with a ton of coal or firewood. If they have food it will be cans and jars. Will you allow less weight if they have dry foods like bags of beans or rice? What if they have a ton of food but bring a half dozen little mouths with them to feed? What are you going to do about those who are old, sick, crippled? How are you going to choose between the woman over fifty who can't have kids any more but is experienced with guns, foraging and getting things done and the woman in her twenties with rings in her nose & lips whose idea of food is tofu salads and hates killing & guns and thinks everyone should love everyone. The first woman may stand beside you with a shotgun when you tell the cying mommy and kids they are not welcome. The second may slip them in while you're sleeping and send them on with backpacks & sacks of food, vitamin pills and medicines.

http://www.canoe.ca/FPColumns/brizio.html

I used to predict the social meltdown, race war, starvation, gold confiscation scenarios being discussed here also. I'm no longer as sure as I once was that these sorts of things will transpire. I am not saying ( nor do I believe ) they won't, so preparation is essential. Preparation relies on staying one step ahead of the masses.Get your storage containers now, but wait till almost the last minute to get the perishables ( including gasoline ) . When buying large quantities of perishables, use cash, buy from several different places that are not familiar with you, and never leave your name.
Buy your Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer now as well as firearms and ammo. If you live in the country, get a big propane tank now. ( I was fortunate to make a GREAT deal on a 1700 gal tankset ) Get your genset and or solar panels and batteries now. These are the sorts of things that will/are go up in price or become unavailable in the near future. Diesel generators are already becoming harder to get.
As to turning hungry people away, your decision to or not to may very well be that which makes the difference between life and death for you and yours. That decision will have to be made depending on all the circumstances at the time. The hungry people have been given every bit as much opportunity to prepare as I.
If Y2K turns out to be a huge catastrophe, the human race will regain some of the strength it has lost from the artificial support of social welfare. This planet really needs a good cleansing.
Preparation for the worst is the only way. Anything less could lead to your demise.1MHO. gb

Here's good background on various aspects of the developing economic slump.

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/070398/world11_10967_noframes.html

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/local/metros/new_york/regional_news_network/story.html?s=n/rnn/ny/19980703/19980703017

MJPL - I just returned from a job interview in Corvallis Oregon. When I returned I told my wife that I had some doubts about living in Oregon. The state seems rather socialistic with 10% state income tax, and all kinds of restrictions on land and what you can do with it. Its even against the law to pump your own gas there. I suppose that provides a number of low paying jobs for gas station attendants while hiking the price of gasoline 25 cents per gallon. The price of homes there is in the stratosphere, not the ionosphere as in California but getting up there. At the same time I noticed what seemed to be a fair amount of poverty. Most homes were extremely modest, not a problem, but many in the rural areas were surrounded with weeds and in ill repair. I also heard on the radio an advertisement about a benefit concert to help feed the 1 in 8 in Oregon that were going hungry. They were probably taking artistic license here with the hunger statistics but it was my impression that people were up against it in Oregon. It would seem to me that anyone with money and the freedom to move would leave Oregon to friendlier tax jurisdictions. I'd appreciate your comments and those of other Oregonians out there.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a371866.htm

-EJ

All:

I've been reading, learning, forming opinions, unforming opinions here for the last few months. I came here ( Kitco ) only to learn about gold. I found much more ( thankful and grateful ) . I have found intellectuals ( in the good sense of the word ) , poets, patriots ( in the true sense of the word ) , and in general a group of men and women who have lived, and lived deeply, and have mined the nuggets of truth personally, and are willing to share with others ( Mozel comes to mind, not to lessen the contributions of others by mentioning him only ) .

I am reminded of a passage from Emerson's essay, "The Over-Soul": "And so in groups where debate is earnest, and especially on great questions of thought, the company becomes aware of their unity; aware that the thought rises to an equal height in all bosoms, that all have a spiritual property in what was said, as well as the sayer. They all wax wiser than they were. It arches over them like a temple, this unity of thought, in which every heart beats with nobler sense of power and duty, and thinks and acts with unusual solemnity. All are conscious of attaining to a higher self posession. It shines for all. There is a certain wisdom of humanity which is common to the greatest men with the lowest, and which our ordinary education often labors to silence and obstruct. The mind is one, and the best minds, who love truth for its own sake, think much less of property in truth. Thankfully they accept it everywhere, and do not label or stamp it with any man's name, for it is theirs long beforehand."

I came here knowing about computers, knowing that the problem would not be solved in time with Y2k. I did not, ( and do not know ) exactly *what* that means for society. I cannot in good consience tell others what they *should* do about this. I can only tell them what I am doing, and I tell very few about that. I have found others here who know a lot about gold, and its history. I've found out about a 20 year bear market in gold. I've seen some think gold will go as low as $6/oz, and others as high as $30,000/oz. I've seen traders discuss whether the events of the day will make prices go up or down.

The only reason I bought gold, physical, was to preserve value going forward. Not to invest, not to make money, not to profit by gloom and doom, but to preserve what little my family has. At the end of the day, I have to say, that I am emotionally comfortable with holding for the long run, but intellectully concerned that the banks, worldwide will continue their discreditation of gold as a monetary asset, and that with their superior power, they will artifically deflate gold, until no one holds it but them.

I have seen comments here before ( not so many recently ) about getting the holding of physical gold more widely accepted. Since I know ( firsthand ) how difficult it is to talk to people about computers and Y2k, and I also know how difficult it is to talk about gold ownership, I am not convinced there is any way to present these concepts simply, effectively, and with a broad enough base to have any real impact.

However, I do think ( echoing others I have heard here ) that the physical ownership of gold by *people*, could be an effective countermeasure against the consortium of international banks, and could be in fact, the most revolutionary device available against that threat. As I see it now, the threat is not mere nationalism, but "bank-ism". With manipulatable currencies, and cycles of inflation/deflation, I see how the oscillating effect "Pumps" wealth from people to banks who then control with another's power. It's quite scary actually. I've dug deep in my computer life ( 35 years ) and really understand that we've got a big big problem. Bigger than I can communicate effectively. When others venture "Hey, didn't you guys conspire to create this mess so you could get rich fixing it?" I say, "No, there is no conspiricy, that's just how it is". But with gold, how it appears has the hallmarks of a conspiracy, and the little digging I've done here seems to reinforce those beliefs.

I'd like to thank you in advance for this longish posting. I've posted on a weekend to stay "out of the fray", but wanted to let you folks know how much I appreciate all of you, and what my thoughts on the subject are now. Bottom Line? IDCIBM! :- )

This is my idea for a sample tonne:
Cheaters will know they are cheating and they will know that I know.
Traitors - hmmmm - hadn't thought of that. I could toss her out but the stuff the rest of us needed to survive on would still be gone.

$400 for 800 1lb ( more or less ) cans of asstd vegetables, fruit, milk, chili, pork 'n beans at average of 50 cents a can ( less for beans, veggies & milk and more for chili & fruit ) .
$20 for 100 pounds of flour
$80 for 50 pounds of honey
$200 for 150 pounds of Minute Rice
$300 for 500 pounds of pasta
$100 for 300 pounds of long rice & dry beans
$50 for 100 pounds of sugar
$150 for 100 pounds ( 300 cans ) of tuna
$100 for 100 1lb cans of Spam, corned beef, etc.

$1400 for 2200 pounds
or a bit over Four 1oz GOLD MAPLE LEAFs
PRETTY CHEAP REALLY - compared to other provisions.

I know I could get more for less if I bought more dry beans, regular white rice, flour, etc.
Figure 3 years for an individual but when several relatives & friends and their relatives & friends show up and are let in - if they don't bring much we would be down to 3 months for a dozen people. A dozen would be about right for a self-sustaining, foraging, defensible group. More would be too hard to handle.

P.S.
Before you all tell me what I forgot.
I also have lots of oatmeal, raisins ( even if they get hard the oatmeal will soften 'em up ) , instant potatoes, pickle relish, barbeque sauce, cooking oil, salad dressing ( french & mayo ) , peanut butter, jelly, canned soups ( esp. mushroom & celery for the tuna & pasta ) , yeast, baking soda, baking powder, salt ( both iodized and plain for preserving stuff ) crackers, macaroni & cheese, spaghetti sauce, vitamins, aspirin, cough syrup, cold medicines, some anti-biotics ( every time I see the dentist I get more and usually don't use them ( gotta watch dates though ) - same for Tylenol #3 ) toothpaste, liquid and bar soap, paper towels and now over 300 rolls of TP!

Steve, you are correct that China's capitalist reforms are moving much faster than democratic reforms. The position of the Chinese government is that 8% annual growth must be maintained to keep the employment level high enough to prevent social unrest. The event of China's growth falling below that level and the resulting crackdown will surely set them back on democratization.

goldfvr, I'm still looking for the article that contained the Fed 1928 minutes I quoted. Err, there on this dern hard disk someplace...

ROR, I'm a reformed socialist. When I was young I loved the idea of equality of result, regardless of individual differences in ability, which is what Socialism purports to offer. Capitalism pretends to offer equality of opportunity, but not of result. But Capitalism does not give everyone the same chance; concentration of wealth gives the children of the wealthy huge advantages over the children of the poor, because they can afford to educate them better. Asian Capitalist nations have adopted various forms of egalitarian capitalism, where everyone has equal access to education regardless of wealth, and this does seem to level the playing field somewhat.

-EJ

Keeeeeerrrrriiiipes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dey gonna come get you boy!
Didja hear 'bout Amos Moses?
"Ate up a ton o' groceries"
Ask Swamp Boy 'bout him some time.

For Gagnrad ..
The urls you offered will be usefull to some ..
I believe however that the news item of the 700 odd
Blacks killed in police custody had been seriously
over-interpreted.
It has probably been around this level for the last
10 .. 20 .. 50 years .. I believe that the "increase"
is simply because better records are being kept. You
memtion the "revolutionary" Government ... puleze ..
THERE WAS NO REVOLUTION HERE .. JUST AN ELECTION..
We have an ANC Government that was ELECTED.. There is
no parallel with the French revolution ..
However .. you are right about the EXTREME polyglot
nature of the country.
The killing of Blacks ( criminals ) in custody by
Black Colored Indian Moslem White Zulu Xhosa Sutho
Police is not about revolutions or politics or tribal
confict ( MR Mick ) ... Its about violence .. RSA
townships have a violent component and a high crime
rate..
Police in some cases are frustrated by criminals
being let off in the courts .. in other cases they
are part of the local criminal scene themselves ..
with scores to settle ..
A high level of deaths in police custody .. "killed
while attemping to escape" .. has always been part
of the RSA police scene .. under Aparteid and under
the ANC .. If the death penalty is reinstated .. these
killings may decrease..

Grizz ..
Thats what I like about you ..

I too have learned much here. Yes we each are giving each other a lift and the whole of us continues to rise. Your post helps me feel good about at least some significant portion of humanity. It is a good way to start this day that celebrates the declaration and winning of our Independence.

My bumper sticker reads: "POLITICIANS PREFER UNARMED PEASANTS". I get a lot of ( favorable ) comments. In Texas we have a CFL ( Concealed Firearms License ) , which I have. And I carry.

I have a reputation to hold down.
It must have something to do with my nom de plume ( as Retired Soldier call it ) .

http://www.wakeupordie.com/html/visitor.html

Thank you for your comments on the timing lag for valuing SA stocks. I wouldn't have believed there could be such a lag in seeing the straight forward consequences of currency changes on costs. By the way, do you have a site for Johannesburg quotes? I picked up some DROOY a couple weeks ago and am interested in how it acted yesterday in SA.

shower....PS seriously there are movements boyh black and white that are planing something nasty....nothing really new,just keep your powder dry

All of a sudden I have lost my back button. Every site on the net I have a back button. While in Kitco my back button grays out. Also I am acquiring a string of little windows at the bottom of the screen as I try to move from person to person. Has anyone else noticed anything odd?

End of day quotes on S.A. shares are available from http://www.bfanet.com/lookup/rptmain.htm .

I too lose my back botton in kitco. I don't have any windows like those you describe.

They seem to have changed the setup somehow. Actually it's somewhat faster once you get used to it. Instead of using the back button just close your latest window and you'll be back to the previous one.

Been on the Oregon coast for ten years, no plans for
leaving. High property and income taxes, no sales tax.
Per capita tax rate about middling among the states.

Oregon became a hippy haven, a lot of the hippies of the 60's retired there after they won the Vietnam War. The state has quite a socialist tilt to it because of this. I love Oregon, it was a mistake I made to put money into a socalist order.

It will all work out. Someday people will get sick of being ruled over by a bunch of people who think they are royality or saviors of the world. Funny how some people think that they can save the world if only they had everyones elses money.

Hey I ususlly post at night, I got to get going on my rounds. If you like the North West, Washington is a better bet. No state income tax for ROR to do good with.

Strange. It links ok dor me. Were you displaying from full text mode? You might also try just copy and pasting the url into the address field of your browser. It's probably worthwhile information.

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/070398/world11_10967_noframes.html

A VISITOR FROM THE PAST
I had a dream the other night, I didn't understand. A figure walking through
the mist, with flintlock in his hand. His clothes were torn and dirty, as he
stood there by my bed. He took off his three-cornered hat, and speaking
low, he said:
"We fought a revolution, to secure our liberty. We wrote the Constitution, as
a shield from tyranny. For future generations, this legacy we gave. In this,
the land of the free and home of the brave.
"The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you'd always keep. But tyrants
labored endlessly while your parents were asleep. Your freedom gone, your
courage lost, you're no more than a slave. In this, the land of the free and
home of the brave.
"You buy permits to travel, and permits to own a gun, permits to start a
business, or to build a place for one. On land that you believe you own, you
pay a yearly rent. Although you have no voice in choosing, how the money's
spent.
"Your children must attend a school that doesn't educate. Your Christian
values can't be taught, according to the state. You read about the current
news, in a regulated press. You pay a tax you do not owe, to please the
I.R.S.
"Your money is no longer made of Silver or of Gold. You trade your wealth
for paper, so your life can be controlled. You pay for crimes that make our
Nation, turn from God in shame. You've taken Satan's number, as you've
traded in your name.
"You've given government control, to those who do you harm, so they can
padlock churches, and steal the family farm, and keep our country deep in
debt, put men of God in jail, and harass your fellow countrymen, while
corrupted courts prevail.
"Your public servants don't uphold the solemn oath they've sworn. Your
daughters visit Doctors, so their children won't be born. Your leaders ship
artillery and guns to foreign shores, And send your sons to slaughter,
fighting other people's wars.
"Can you regain the freedom for which we fought and died? Or don't you
have the courage, or the faith to stand with pride? Are there no more values
for which you'll fight to save? Or do you wish your children, live in fear and
be a slave?
"Sons of the Republic, arise and take a stand! Defend the Constitution, the
Supreme Law of the Land! Preserve our Great Republic, and each
GOD-Given Right! And pray to GOD, to keep the torch of Freedom burning
bright!"
As I awoke he vanished, in the mist from whence he came. His words were
true, we are not Free, we have ourselves to blame. For even now as tyrants
trample each GOD-Given Right, We only watch and tremble, too afraid to
stand and fight.
If he stood by your bedside, in a dream, while you're asleep, and wonders
what remains of our Rights he fought to keep, what would be your answer, if
he called out from the grave: "Is this still the land of the free and home of the
brave????"


Copyright 1986 Thelen Paulk. All Rights Reserved. Editor's note: The
above poem by Thelen Paulk has been widely circulated about the Internet
as Author Unknown. Thelen is known and very much alive and should be
credited with his work. "A Visitor From The Past" can be found in Thelen's
book of Christian Patriot poetry:

Thanks for the info. Could you help me a bit more? I went to the site and couldn't find any quote source.

Pete: do you think it was Cromwell?

'Rip-roarin' Gold bull-market has been 'here' already, for at least a year.

from Investor's Business Daily's 7/6/98 issue, 'futures page/column':
""...Right now there's a twist. One of the
( ( many&growing number of.. -imho ) )
currencies falling hard against the dollar is the South African rand.
Thursday it took 6.34 rands to buy a dollar. That's up 5.4% in a day, and a fat 24% in the last month.
That's key because South Africa is the world's No. 1 gold producer. As the dollar soars, an ounce of gold brings in more rands, even as gold's
price in dollars falls. Now, gold is at a 10-year high when priced in rands.""

I think this last statement:
"gold is at a 10-year high when priced in rands"
is very important, to recognize, and give some thought to.

This is continuing to happen to more and more currencies, around the world: dramatic bull markets in gold prices as valued/defined in each currency.

If any of you know of any urls/web-sites, that offer/include gold-price charts in each nation's currency, I'd very much appreciate your sending that info to me.
( I'm already aware of the-privateer, golden-eagle, etc.; and I recommend those sites, heartily, to anyone. But I'm still looking for a url that might offer historical gold-prices in terms of each and every nation's currency, similar to the way the-privateer does, so effectively,
for gold in U.S. dollars, Australian dollars, D-Marks, & Yen. )

I think it is perhaps a most valuable trend to recognize how more and more people & nations in the world are discovering that gold is getting "too expensive"...in their individual currency...
for them to buy/invest in....
while for those holding U.S. dollars...

gold has been getting cheaper & cheaper....

It would be useful info to know:

#1. how many currencies now find gold more expensive, than
3 mos. ago, & 6 mos. ago, 12 mos., etc.

#2. where the greatest pools of U.S. dollars/dollar credits/dollar denominate investment holdings ( -stocks, bonds, derivatives ) are
currently being held; where exactly/who exactly is holding/in-control-of
this 'mountain' of liquid - 'hot capital', in the world.
For example, with the continuing U.S./Japan trade deficits for
many years, 'Japanese interests' have been accumulating millions & billions & even trillions of U.S. dollar defined capital, for decades.

#3. At some point, there will be a supply/demand shift in the U.S. dollar's relationship to gold; just as there has been, and continues to be, in increasing numbers of the paper currencies, of the world, just like the So. African rand, for a more recent example -- the number of
paper currencies finding gold more & more costly, keeps growing....
like proverbial falling dominoes....the list keeps growing..

If anyone knows of a source of info, a record-keeping of this kind of data, a web-site/url, etc., please let me know.

Thanks mucho, your fellow-kitcoite, in search of the
ever-brighter light of 'gold'...
David Blair Macrory
goldfever@k-online.com

P.S. There is something more subtle & sinister, than what may immediately meet the eye/or conscious awareness....in this world-wide phenomenon of more and more national currencies, nations, and their businesses, corporations, & individual citizens....being priced out of the gold market.....that is...more & more of the world is discovering that gold is becoming dramatically more costly....
very rapidly, in their currency.
There is underlying, accelerating shift
of ultimate power & control ( -he who holds the gold, makes the rules ) ,
to those power-centers, capital-centers, instituions, etc., of most concentrated wealth...
who are holding the greatest amounts & %-ages,
of U.S. dollar-denominated, liquid, capital/assets,
on an international scale.

The tide will turn;
it always does;
ominously, for the prospects of a free-world in the next millennium,
there will be only very few,
and very large 'boats'...
that will rise...
in the next...
rising bull tide...
in gold.

Olivers not the boy ( but could have been ) .

He say--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And when I am at my least paranoid, I wonder:

How long will this marvelous WWW be allowed to continue? This geometric spreading of free thought?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Loggorhea-ithmic. : )

My slant on how the fed is financing the japanese banking crisis is along these lines. They are using the same methods they used to finance our own banks in the recent S&L crisis. Back then the long bond was fairly high and the fed kept short rates low so the banks could borrow from the fed and put the money in long bonds making the 500 basis point spread with no risk. This time they are keeping up short rates trying to keep up the long rates high enough so that the japanese can borrow for .25% from the Japanese fed and then put the money in our long bonds at 5.75% making a cool 500 basis points on the spread. In addition to that Rubin and the japanese have engineered the currency situation so that when they redeem the bonds they pick up 40% more yen for every dollar they invested. Awhile back the yen was at 100 to the dollar. Now it is 140 to the dollar. Pick up 500 basis points in interest and a 40% pick up in the currency manipulation. Not bad. As usual it is the good old US taxpayer taking the hit.

All of you can start to celebrate now! I sold all of my gold stocks last week, so, gold will certainly rally this coming week. It's not going to be a big rally however, because I'm keeping all of the physical lining the walls of my basement. How much dried food can I buy with $80,000???

Oh my God, I've lost it. They are coming to take me away, eh eh!

I smile when I hear "Gold's gone up! ( Or down ) ". I think, instead "The Currency has gone down ( or up ) ". So to find a universal commodity in which everything else can be denominated could be useful. Some have suggested the "Big Mac" as a ubiquitous unit of measure. Buckminister Fuller offered the Killowatt-Hour as a universal measure, because it was tranlatable to a fixed amount of work, and isn't that what's being measured in money, and stored in money in large degree? Instead of trying to fix the sextant on the fluctuating currency denominated prices, could there be a weighted basket of commodities that include manufacturing and consumer elements ( ie raw, semifinished, and finished ) that could be used as a global barometer against which gold can be measured ( is convertable to ) . I liked Squirrel's measure of a ton of food = 4 Maple Leafs. Something like that Idea.
I will agree that it is somewhat ridiculous to try to measure that which should be the measuring device itself ( ie gold ) , but isn't that what we're trying to do? No answers. Just Questions. Thanks.

http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/plot.html

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/business/story.html?s=z/reuters/980704/business/stories/japan_5.html

I found that by selecting "close" under "File" on my netscape browser, it takes me back to Kitco from an opened comment.

this stuff will put you in another dimension...Happy Fourth to One and ALL from the Island that is Long...what a day...cannot wait for the fireworks on the water...wish you all could see them...

Be safe out there today...

Click onto JANES'S PRESS RELEASES and scroll down to the last article on this link. Looks like the aviation authorities aren't taking their non-2000 compliant seriously.

ALL - this is a great bookmark!

http://press.janes.com/

How decidedly quaint ( an hundred years ago I would have said decidedly queer ) that you would feel guilty for a thought crime which you only think you've committed. Lucky for you, you are just quoting neurosis endemic to the culture, apologising for imaginary sins. As for ROR and his deconstructionist friends who are rewriting our culture ( s ) I'd say it was a decidedly insane idea. IMHO

( ROR if you are reading this, I'll give you a bone to chew on: American corporations practice a highly evolved form of socialism within their ranks. You may dig up references to try to refute this idea if you wish, but I'll tune out your usual pantings and moanings. ) IMHO

Aurator, you are right at least in part about the Spartan use of homosexuality to keep the troops occupied ( Totalitarian Sparta, incidentally, left no art, no literature, no lasting impression on world culture ) . But for democratic Athenians the same idea plus a liberal dose of political correctness was poison. I've taken the liberty of attaching the URL to a file which should illustrate this. Toward the end of the war a clique of Athenian homosexuals gained power and managed to have executed some key military men including the only general who could have won the war. The writer, Thucydides, never finished the tale, but I can dig up more references if you wish after you've waded through this one. IMHO http://english-server.hss.cmu.edu/history/peloponesian-war.txt

That would work if you could find a commodity that is traded freely around the world without govenment manipulation. Electricity has a forest of government subsidies altering it's true price. The TVA has government land that pays no taxes with government built dams generating hydro electric power competing against oil fired generating station owned by stockholders. We all now how the price of oil is manipulated. Tobacco is the most regualated commodity on the planet. You must have a government license to grow it. It is sold only at government regulated auctions and you go to jail if you try to grow some without a license. The licenses are passed down from generation to generation and no more will ever be created. Gold itself is a manipulated commodity. The current price of gold is exactly to the penny what the central bankers say it should be. They regulate with the lease rates and such. The only thing that puzzles me is that they have driving down the price of a commodity that they own the lion's share of. I imagine someday the story will come out on why gold has been driven down for years but right now it is a mystery. If I were a central banker with thousands of tons of gold in my warehouse I would trying to drive up the price. In any event everything is regulated out of it's true value by the government. That is why they have $16.00 a pound rice in Japan and $2.00 a pound american rice is forbidden to be sold. Something out the government says american rice doesn't taste the same as Japanese rice. Can't sell our skys over there either. They claim their snow is different then our snow and our skys would be a safety hazard on Japanese snow. Sheesh!

Can there be an inflation with gold vis a vie other goods & Services?

Ans., yes. We have that situation right now.

Currently the inflation rate in the US is about 2  % as measured against the dollar. What would the inflation rate be measured against gold?

The reason for this inflation is too much money chasing to many goods.

What would happen in a deflation? Money would become dear with respect to goods & services

What does anyone think about including uncomeliness, not due a weight problem which can be controlled, under the disability Act. Clearly there is discrimination based on appearance. In fact a very good looking middle class person probably has it over a homely rich person. Inclusion of this category has been debated but then there is the old beauty is in the eye of the beholder argument..ie someone uncomely is sometimes considered not to be so by a few. I think it would be good to provide some protection or should I say coverage. A vet can walk around looking great and be considered disabled but what about someone with a big nose who weighs three hundred pounds due to some genetic factor. Query who faces more discrimination in the work place.

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~avernon/lyrics/take.txt

If you don't want to wade down through all 115k of the last URL here is one which cuts to the chase.I wonder in a thousand years they'll call WJC the Alcibiades of 20th Century 'Merka or will he just be a footnote? http://www.amherst.edu/~eakcetin/alkibia.html

Don't answer that - I really don't care. GOLD now...that's something I can sink my teeth into.

exist,we by our very make up are unequal,and
we do discriminate......disability is just
another word for welfare....taking from the
productive giving to lazy,and stupid....do I
discriminate yes...I can't handel lazy stupid
non-productive citizens be
they,black,white,hispanic,women etc....

IDT: The run-down shantys you see are probably hippie enclaves. In fact, Oregon is probably the only state to elect a hippie as governor, to re-enforce the claim of a previous poster about the abundance of 'em. I've noticed a pony tail on him from time to time on TV. There is also a 'marijuana festival' every year in Eugene w/ attendence perhaps in the thousands. I live in Bend - east of the Cascades - the desert. You will find that there is an ultra liberal 'Banana Belt' - if you will - stretching from Seattle to San Fransisco. The majority west of the cascades determine the elections of Oregon & Wash. Back in '88, either Wash or OR or both actually voted for Dukakis. There's been silly talk in the past ( still is, I suppose ) of Creating a new state composed

of Eastern Wash & OR, in order to free themselves of this slavery. I've lived in Wash. 7 years and 2.5 in OR. Youre right - OR is tough on taxes. Also - do you like rain? Can you go a month w/o seeing the sun?

Don't mean to imply all W. OR are hippies - we got lots of 'em here, too. Don't mean to discredit all hippies, either - some of 'em actually have jobs.

On the other hand, it's a beautiflu state, with lots of variety in climate/scenery/recreation, etc. Wher I live, if you drive 1/2 hr. in one direction, yer in the middle of a seeming wasteland where you'd be lucky to see a scrawny ol' coyote wandering around the sagebrush. 1/2 hr. in the other direction, yer in the middle of a stand of ponderosa's 100 ft. tall listening to elk bugling somewhere off in the distance. FWIW.

Who says they are not better off?

Bend is a nice little ole place. Little cool in the winter.

Discrimination based on nonperformance is not the problem. It is discrimination against people based upon an immutable characteristic. Through the legal system things have improved for Blacks,Hispanics,Asians,women, homosexuals ( I dont condone but dont discriminate ) the disabled and the elderly. It is our laws that protect these people from discrimination which makes our country great. The HMOs should be next. Happy 4th off to catch some rays at the pool with my mimosa in hand.

Well, to start off with everything our government does is strategic in nature. Every move is designed to enhance our military position in the global pecking order. The resources of the nation are squandered and the backs of the people are broken toward this end. See Russia. The Japanese thing started, as you know, in the Korean war. We needed military bases off the coast of asia to prosecute the war in Korea. We also needed
additional industrial production as the US was in no mood for WWII type rationing again. The decision was made to give Japan a portion of
our consumer markets in exchange for the military bases. This lasted through the Viet Nam War. After that, over a period of time Japan diminished in strategic importance. This became very much so after the fall of the Soviet Union. However by then the picture had changed. Our guns and butter policy had led to generations of deficit spending. To finance the military and the domestic economy at the same time huge trade deficits ( spelled budget deficits ) had to be run. Japan picked up the markers. They send us consumer goods we could not have otherwise made
ourselves and we got to keep our monster military establishment and all was well with the world. Problem is now we are like siamese twins. Kill one and you kill the other. If Japan tries to redeem the bonds they hold our bond and stock markets go in the toilet. So here we both are with
our pact with the devil haunting us generations later. Neithr of us can get completley free of the other without destroying the others economy. We are financing the bail out of the Japanese banking system and they continue holding their treasurys. Sort of like an embrace of death.

Have skied Mount Bachelor ( near Bend ) and stayed in that ski village about 30 miles away where all the Californians fly in their private jets and taxi to their stately mansions with the Mercedes Benz's.It's their last resort if all hell breaks loose in California. There are more old cars in Bend and surrounding area for restoration than anywhere else I have seen.
The schools in Philomath had a benefactor in a lumber baron. He left enough money to put every kid in the district through University. He knew the trees would run out. You wouldn't need socialism if the rich were all as generous as him.

ROR ( Affirmative action ) : Clearly, you continue to affirm our understanding of your political philosophy. It's nothing but an expansion of the same nuttiness we have today. In the end, your point of view may prevail but those of us who see it for what it is, oppression of the independent and a harnessing of the productive to the wagons of the useless, will continue to avoid any involvement.

In the end you will have no choice but to resort to physical force in order to accomplish your political ends.

As an exercise, visit some of the proliferating survival sites. You might get the impression that there is a growing movement afoot to prepare for the day when your ideas are given complete force of law. On that day, lawyering won't count for much.

The folks on this site buy gold and other commodities for just that eventuality. Right or wrong.

The following book I can heartily & highly recommend.
The Encyclopedia of Country Living
http://www.acommonreader.com/0/0165.html
or for a long url but better description
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0912365951/u/002-1565966-7085266

For summaries and links to a bunch of similar tomes:
such as BASIC PREPAREDNESS and HOW TO DISAPPEAR COMPLETELY and HOW TO HIDE ANYTHING and SHADOW MERCHANTS
http://www.logoplex.com/shops/mom/prepare.html
http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/country.htm
http://survival-center.com/books/recomend.htm
the above site also has the complete survival book list at:
http://www.zyz.com/survivalcenter/bookall.html

and a general site to homesteading & self-reliance
http://www.homestead.org/index.htm

And to stay on topic with SILVER coins: "Triple Ought" by James Wesley, Rawles answers question # 9. ) "I have some precious metal coins. How do I know what they are worth now, and what they will eventually be worth for
barter purposes?"
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/a/jaa155/TEOTWAWKI/appb.htm

This is not an ad, it is a recomendation. If you are an out door type and want to find gold, go to goldprospectors.org 800 551 9707. They are on the Out Door channel-- outdoorchannel.com They have spots all over US where you can pan for gold and keep what you find. They have a kit which is very effective in teaching how to pan. Check it out, you will be surprised. Good luck

IDT: Your impression of Oregon is not entirely wrong. It does not have the feeling of permanence that is common in the midwest. It shows in the way things are built and maintained. Ticky tacky, everywhere you look. ....... OTOH, bear in mind that in western OR, biomass proliferates at a prodigous rate and it becomes a real problem keeping up with it all on a large property. For example, a tree can easily put on 3 ft of new growth in a season.

Taxes high? Yeah. Services? Not commensurate with taxes. Too much is spent on ROR programs. Social Democracy is alive and well in Oregon. The superficial is always more highly regarded than the real. But what else is new? That's America in its end stages.

Property crime is a real and growing problem. There is no stomach in the electorate to deal with it effectively. My losses to breakins, over the past 10 years, are easily over $30k. In March, I was hit for almost $20k. It's not well publicized but Oregon has had the highest rate of bank robberies in the nation.

Employment is heavily dependent on Nike and Intel. If Asia continues to spiral down, this will not be a pleasant place to be.

In short, if it were not for family considerations, I would leave in a heartbeat.

Great perspective!! You have laid out a good road map to corral these values into the future. We will watch these together. yes! I hope you watch closer than I because you brought it up. This is very important, Thanx, Charlie

I always like to stop by the Kitco sight to see if there are any interesting links ( usually are ) . Saw that ROR is up to his usual. Thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.

You ever see that arcade game with the gophers and the mallet? There are about 10 gophers that pop up in random order. Your job is to bash the ones that stick their heads up.

This is a microcosm of some of ROR's proposals for social justice. Anyone who dares to "stick his head up" ( by, gasp!, making money ) is to be immediately bashed in by the mallet of government.

The weakness of democracy is that it allows the voters to attempt all sorts of wrong-headed nonsense. All it takes is a majority of idiots ( unfortunately easy to come by ) . The greatest tyranny in the world is the mob on a mission of righteous anger. See the French Revolution. The righteous anger in this case is aimed at economic inequity. Here's the joke: once ROR and his ilk succeed in giving government the enormous power it takes to implement his programs, he will find that economic inequity increases. The recipients will be those who run the "party".

ROR: the social injustices you decry are there, I admit that. Where I disagree is the idea that huge increases in the power of lawyers, politicians and government is the answer. What you propose always degenerates into simple facsism. Always. IMHO. Remember that the German people ( in the 30s ) thought they were voting for economic equity, amongst other things. They didn't get to vote again until the war was over.

"Date: Sat Jul 04 1998 12:29

CompGeek ( Common Unit of Measure ) ID#343259:

Copyright  1998 CompGeek/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I smile when I hear "Gold's gone up! ( Or down ) ". I think, instead "The Currency has gone down ( or up ) ". So to find a universal commodity in which everything else can be denominated could be useful...."



You are correct to smile. But the "universal commodity" is in fact gold. It is an alternative currency which for historical and legal reasons is easier to use as such in some places on the globe than in others. Gold has been going up in nearly every other currency and is holding its own since January in the US$.



Since it is not easily debased gold tends to rise when alternate currencies are being debased: during inflations and during devaluations. Contrary to common belief, gold does not go up during deflations unless they are accompanied by devaluations.



The Homestake Mining bull market in the 1930's was an anomaly caused by devaluation of the US$, a ban on owning gold by US citizens, and continuing purchase of US mined gold by the US Treasury. These conditions are unlikely in the extreme ever to occur together again.

Has anyone seen or heard from bubba bb fisher of late? email to twocents@geocities.com if you prefer.

You asre right about the soldiers now, when BC stopped off in Alaska, many were ordered to go see him. Many refused respectfully of course, were ordered again and went reluctantly. NO CHEERS, very little clapping, you could feel the disgust if you had been there. This reported to me by friends in uniform.

IDT: I meant to add to the crime in OR thing: A few days ago in Roseburg, a retired Marine Corps General, Marion Carl, was shot and killed in his living room. He lunged at the gunman to protect his wife. Marion Carl was 80, with an impeccable record as a combat pilot.

The killer was yer typical drug addicted scumbag. Still on the loose.

The White Sands Missile Test Range in southern NM, USA announced recently that they had completed successful testing of their Y2K preparedness via a simulated rollover. I am ignorant about these matters, but I am told this was done via cloning their system on a tandem setup and testing it. They are now offering their services to other government agencies.

I want to thank you. I can go in peace now when they arrive to take me away. I am loading the wheel barrow with as much AU as it will hold to take along.

Song: In God's Country.



Lyric: "The greatest gift is gold"

CompGeek's 10:45 "Future of Gold"

Good, thoughtful post!! It goes in my Kitco Classics file.

Thanks to all who support this great site with thoughts of FREEDOM and survival. Someone asked what we Americans do on the Fourth of July: Some ( a great many I presume ) of us reflect on what Independence Day stands for and what we can strive for. Let us all remember that we have many freedoms, not the least of which ( WJC will discover ) is WE CAN VOTE!

Best Regards to all, and have a great 4th!! Mtn Bear

Was supposed to say "Comment-Post of the Day" I vote for :

My last post Subject was: Comment-Post of the day vote:

( for CompGeek's 10:45 "Future of Gold" )

http://www.sawadee.com/guestbook/

With a specific gravity of 19.25 to 19.35 depending upon how much it is hammer compressed a pint jar would hold about 19 pounds of gold. So a fairly good load would be a gallon and a half, leaving plenty of room for a couple of cubic feet of compost on top to throw off the guards.

I do not profess, or pretend to be:
gentile/jew/moslem/hindu/buddhist/christian/pagan/native...
or all 'three'
for all..of us
are ...each, an
individual
and at the same time

"we".

And me-thinks gold
relects
in it's common unit of measure
this
universality....
unconditionally.

I tend to lose patience at times
with those among us
who puff themselves up
with seemingly preening feathers of seeming superior mind
where self-righteous judgements & implied condemnations
of those who are not 'wasps'
....
whose beliefs and heritage
are not like theirs
nor of they...

are thus relegated to
some less than holy, worthy....lay....

but for the principles...only
would i give my time to, m,y study, my devotion and allure

releasing, surrendering...
the singleness of any single nation's allegiance demanded...
or any religion's tempting enslavement...
of my soul's liberty


For my soul's measure..
and that of my society's
and that of all humanity's

I look to gold
for the common material measure
of us each and every one...

for our sacred, individual, collective, universal...
humble, divinity....

And in this anomaly of gold rising, once again
in the midst of one more repeating cycle of crashing.....anomalies...

what could we ask for
that could be more bountifully abundant...
than the mirror
of truth
that gold reflects back to us ...
exactly where we are...
in our material civilization

just as you...
and as i...
reflect to each other

our mutual
inherent
hunger for:
truth
timing
clarity
courage
commitment
community
fulfillment
and liberty
compassion

It is those who want to reign in the legal system who are anti-freedom, The Nazis were always racist and for limiting freedom and the judiciary. The legal profession in this country is the only thing that protects people and allows them to stand up to monied interests. This is why monied interests hate lawyers. It is the minied interests which want to destroy freedom. The Nazis persecuted Jewish Lawyers and their Christian bretheren at the behest of Krupp et al. Two of our finest most progressive and Jewish lawyers sit on the Supreme Court of THE US..
Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer..God Bless em..they have demonstrated that they love liberty.

Whether they happen to be Jewish or not....
rest assured...

Goldfevr--Well said,idyllic but basic and fundemenrally until we reach a point where these values prevail we will still have a way to go. The first imput for today, before I began to think, it rests easy in my mind.

Bill2j-- Yesterday I was involved in the discussion about the haves-and havn'ts. The underliying facts weren't bought out. You did that in your earlier posts,i.e. the governments are involved in the economy from top to bottom, prices are fixed, markets are traded, the price of gold is manipulated, hell, where does the free market economy begin? So where does that guy earning less than $10.00/hr end up?? I'm not posing that question to you, I'm thanking you for your insight into the whole mess.

Gagnrad-- Interesting comments on the Greeks, I've done some reading of the classics ( mathamatics-playwrights-Thucydidesc ) and I was struck by all the sound and fury signifying something. They didn't waste words and they were always on topic.
What about the defense of the pass at thermopole by Leonidis, one of the most remarkable military exploits ever?

All- It's true, we agree on Gold, we diagree on lots but we agree on GOLD. We could work from there??

Why are there more lawyers in Philadelphia than the whole country of Japan? This is NOT a joke, this is FACT!

Well I can tell lawyer jokes and piss and moan about them with the best, but if I am ever wrongly ( or rightly! ) accused of a serious crime, I'm gonna find the slimiest, sleazeball, schlock-artist barrister that money can buy.

The last time I tested the waters there with Rangy, a baby shark removed my little toe ( 17% ) . I still don't believe that all of the exchange rate losses have been reflected on the U.S. exchanges. Maybe it's all relative & does'nt really matter, if as you believe those stocks are so undervalued compared to the N.A. AU stocks. I've always had a lot of misgivings about the the investment climate in SA, but was very impressed with the gains you made on the last run up. My greed & fear are about evenly matched now, but almost imperceptibly, greed is gaining the upper hand.

Many years ago I went to work in a paper mill. I got to talking to one of the old timers one night. He told me he thought the founding fathers did one whale of a job writing the constitution but that they had made one fatal mistake. He said there should have been a clause stating that no lawyer or member of the legal profession could be allowed to hold public office. He said it was a fatal mistake to create a profession ( politicians ) whose only function was to create more and more laws and then allow those laws to be written by lawyers. Being lawyers, he reasoned, they would create laws not to do good or regulate things in the best interest or general good but laws that were designed to enchance the profession of being a lawyer. Look at our legal system today. We practice more law than any nation on earth, have more lawyers per capita, spend more money than some national budgets and yet everyone senses we have lost out on JUSTICE. We practice law endlessly but none of the lawyers or the legal system seem to care about justice. He gave a beautiful analogy of the danger of sending lawyers to Washington to write laws. It goes something like this. Suppose you create a government agency to fund a study of the effects of painting mouse dumps white. First thing you do is hire a guy to find mouse dumps and paint them white. The guy goes to work and all goes well until the guy realizes that in government you get paid for the number of people under you and not for what you do. He immediately tells his superior he is unable to keep up with his task and needs some assistants. Several more people are hired to help the first guy. This goes well for awhile but soon the guy asks for a raise because of added responsibility. He gets the raise and immediately asks for more people because he is no longer able to keep up with the few people he has. Now project that out into the future and you have an agency employing thousands of people, hundreds of supervisors and scores of department heads. All busily painting mouse dumps white. Now imagine the results of sending lawyers to washington for 200 years to do nothing but write laws. If laws were mouse dumps we would have a nation based on mouse dumps, our currency would be backed by mouse dumps and all of national purpose would be directed toward painting mouse dumps white. The long and the short of it is that until they ban lawyers we will have lots of laws but no justice.

if you doubt this, as for lawyers,The National Lawyers Guild....is part of the US Communist Party....proof of this to follow if you doubt this....the reason we pay so much for health insurance,car insurance and everything else you can name thank the lawyers for that......i understand why you like them,they want to protect the idiots from themselves......these people are bottom feeders......give up on loosers ROR compassion is the reason women should not be allowed to vote....compassion is killing America....happy 4th

Upon this we must focus
upon this
will we find the fine
of fine-tuning
of our timing
upon the awakening bull-market in gold
...
if not....
we will, then ....
continue to be fined
by our own default
and deliberate defiance....

of the sanctity that harbors in the coin of gold's realm
that is revealing the realm of truth
reflecting in each of us...


for timing...
matters, I have found, thru 30+ years of wins & losses...
that technical charting patterns...
patterns of rhymes & reasons...
are most useful...
for these "pictures" reduce a thousand words....
of legions of men and women...
to certain truths....
revealed.....
in the reflecting poower
of truth....

trumpeting the nobility of all of human-kind..
in the eager enagagement of.....
'risking creativity'.......
that the market-place
of the buyers & sellers of the world..
agree upon...

in their union of supply & demand,
where they join
in price
...
the value...
of this time....

so, where do we go from here...?!
i'd think it would .... best-be ...
that we retreat to...
to the place of truth...

triangled...where....:...supply meets demand
in the chart of charting charts.....

where chartered and charted prices...
are found....

for in the..... 'chart'...
is reflected
the magic of the mixture of supply & demand....untied and revealed
...
in the price...

which must always be paid.....

And so, again:
... the supply of 'the abundant all'....
joins...
whether hesitant...or eager...
to the need of the quietly or eagerly demanding demand....
whether humble or insistent....

as 'supply' is eager to give,
abundantly eagerly full & running-over,

and demand, with its wishes/hopes/holds & heavens,
...
of those seeking survival, and/or the 'all' that is their
birthright & destiny.....

as we all seek the truth....

in timing.....

each & every one...
will be found..... in the chart of truth.

And in the principle of integrity...as charted,
before, during, and after us...
there will be ...
the 'chart'...
where..... supply meets demand.

It is a 4 1/2 cubic foot capacity wheel barrow, so that is what I put in it. Now the tire is flat and I can't lift the back. The damn guys that figured up the capacity were in error! I'm chaining myself to one of the legs and eating Twinkys so they will never be able to take me. Hows that for a plan!

Whenever the insurance companies can prevent suits they never pass savings onto consumers. I hope you dont buy that. The reason people are being killed by HMOs is that HMOs cant be sued. Further, the reason insurance premiums are high is corporate greeeeeed. Get real man!

are more lawyers in the US because our economic system demands it. In Japan and other countries the govt evens the playing field and ensures benefits to most of the population ie higher education, food, housing, medical care, employment when possible and strictly regulates economic activity. As a result there are less disputes as the std of living is higher. If we had this system the no. of lawyers in the US would decrease also. But note our regulations and laws are much more advanced and much of the world is begging for our lawyers and judges to travel and help establish the rule of law for commercial purposes. The greater the number of lawyers the more advanced the law and regulations. Go read the Uniform Commercial Code and the Bankruptcy Code Sherlock.

There are more lawyers in Philadelphia than all of Japan because there is more crime in Philadelphia than all of Japan.

"So, through legal system things improved for all those discriminated folks..."

Allow me to express some doubts about that.
Imagine a person, belonging to "opressed minority". The person, considered to be put in disadvantaged position, was admitted to
Haravard ( through quotas -- not through competition wit other candidates )
Professors out of fear to be accused of discrimination gave that person
higher grades than the person deserved. ( Remember -- that person could not
pass entrance exams like everybody else -- and so cannot master subjects
on par with those who passed the competition ) . The person knows that
he/she was admitted through quotas -- so self-confidence suffer greatly.
So, the performance becomes even worth than it migth have been,

After graduating Harvard - the person tries to find a job on par with those whose grades are real -- not illusory. Potential employers look at this person and do ask themselves a question -- who much worth is that education grades received through quotas and intimidation of professors?
Not much -- is the answer. So the person is promoted less then peers -- and cries loud discrimination, discrimination, etc.

So, these "legal solutions to discrimination problems" look like well promoted illusions, which create a life-long trap for those weak to build there life on such shaky foundation.

I rest my case.

ROR: No doubt it's the same greed motivating lawyers as well. It seems to me that the American Trial Lawyers Association is doing quite well and is able to muster mucho dinero in opposition to any legislation that would limit their ability to continue to cut a fat hog. ..... Get real!

Greed is real. Unfortunately, the rest of us are unable to pass laws in support of our personal incomes. This has always been the case with lawyering. You are advocating for yourself and your profession not the interests of some insignificant portion of the population. It's a racket and turning a blind eye to it will not change a thing.

for you,if you are 40 something its all over the lessons of life have passed you by

Without affirmative action they might be baggig groceries at Safeway. However, I do think affirmative action should be disallowed for minority members who come from affluent backgrounds as there the badge of discrimination has been eliminated. I think we need to tailor an affirmative action along economic lines and include members of poor white families for preference. In sum, more preference should be given the further you are down the economic ladder. I see some things moving in this direction and lets hope it continues. Certainly this is the way it works in other developed countries. I am fighting for this!

.

Well, the affirmative action means that you favor one category of people by using oprresion and violence against others -- not at fault for the poverty of the first category. These is the major socialistic idea.
It might be acceptable, if it is kept from becoming the major principle of a society. But personally, I belive that one never does a good thing by evil means. Remember there is always another party involved in all your "good affirmative" actions. Usually the people who suffer, committed know other crime but being born to a parents living above poverty level.
Is that really a crime?

Are you trying to make a point?

I need to talk to you. Lost your email on computer change. Mine is cdevoto@abts.net Thanx, Charlie

should not have to suffer because they have flunky parents. We need to create equality of opportunity.

Earl - The 17:14 post of Bill2j brings to mind an interesting point. In many countries there are conflict of interest laws at the Municipal, State, & Provincial levels in regards to holding an elected office. Does this not apply to lawyers?

REF: "ROR ( Robnoel ) Said:

".... The reason people are being killed by HMOs is that HMOs cant be sued."

ROR, are you absolutely certain of this????? Would greatly appreciate knowing for sure - as most probably 99.9% of those "covered" by HMOs are totally ignorant of this. Pls advise. Thx

I always wonder, what are you proud of? You present yourself as saints
who defend the disadvantaged folks. But you omit that it is not your
money you use for that purpose, are you not? You extort the money from other people, who by your act become disadvantaged in real terms, not imagination of people calling themselves "progressive" or "liberal".

I really doubt that your intentions are good. People like you, whom I know personally, are underdogs, who dream of being promoted into the elite by the people whom them declair "disadvantaged" and defend by opressing other people. It is not the faireness you are after. It is the idea of personal magnificence ( without real merits to achieve it naturally ) that drives all that championing of the poor by means of making those well-of less well-of.

Poor fools you are though. When the people you defend, get real power, you will be the first they will get rid of ( read hang ) . Why? Becuase, you help them to get the power, so -- you are dangerous.

Good luck in food fights.

"Poor kids should not have to suffer because they have flunky parents." So, kids whos parents are not flunky shall suffer. Is it it?

The pernicious insurance industry dwarfs the trial lawyers in their greed. At least the laws lawyers support are pro consumer. Allstate et al will rip you off at every turn. If you are under 40 there is hope maybe you will see the light...To take an age discriminatory posting by Robnoel showing a discriminatory mindset about age..he has no facts but makes a generalization about all people in a certain class based on a pre conceived but non accurate notion. Robnoel we need to reedeucate you out of your imbedded discrimanitory mindset which shows up in your postings...ie a persons age is determinative of whether they can change..taking a theory and applying it too all without reference to the individual...Do you have other stereotypical views...this is what we want to work against..ie all stereotypes...we are all world citizens.

As far as "Socialism" is concerned, I come more and more to the result, that it is a very effective tool to gain power, among other attributes. It is a package of promises to the poor to get their attention and to glue their hopes to the state or to a political movement or to a religion.

The one who packaged this bundle first was the son of a Jewish rabbi, who became known under his pseudonym Karl Marx. In Germany, Bismarck was the first one who recognized the usefulness of this package and issued very important laws, called Bismarck's Social Laws. This package made it a legal duty to grant three benefits to all employees: health insurance, retirement insurance, and unemployment insurance. Bismarck managed with these laws to glue the working class to the state, to win them back for the state, to give them back the possibility to identify with the state.

Hitler has later built on this tradition to win the workers for the state by creating the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It's major and original success was not it's anti-semitism but it's socialist package. The anti-semitism came into the game because of the fierce rivalry to obtain the priviledge to offer this attractive package:
the jewish socialists and communists or the German Bourgeoisie.

It is not just a paranoia of the NAZIs that the Socialist and communist packages were pushed by jews. I give you here a quote from an Israeli historian, Louis Rapaport. He writes in his "Stalin's War against Jews" the following:
"Immediately after the revolution, many Jews were euphoric over their high representation in the new government. Lenin's first Politburo was dominated by men of Jewish origins...Under Lanin, Jews became involved in all aspects of the Revolution, including its dirtiest work. Despite the Communists' vows to eradicate anti-Semitism, it spread rapidly after the revolution - partly because of the prominence of so many Jews in the Soviet administration, as well as in the traumatic, inhuman Sowjetization drives that followed. Historian Salo Baron has noted that an immensly disproportionate number of Jews joined the Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka...and many of those who fell afoul of Cheka would be shot by Jewish investigators. The collective leadership that emerged in Lenin's dying days was headed by the Jew Zinoviev, a loquacious, meanspirited, curly-haired Adonis whose vanity knew no bounds."

I have here another quote from Winston Churchill who published on February 8, 1920 in the "London Illustrated Sunday Herald" an essay which basically also refers to the fact that Bolshevism was a Jewish dominated dictatorship.

I'm well aware that hundreds of thousands of Jews who completely rejected communism and socialism had later to suffer under the label of Bolshevism and Socialism being Jewish instruments of suppression.

But the fact remains that Socialism is a package which can be used by any well organized group to gain power. It is based on the need for social justice, which is not a bad or mean need. It is part of human needs because humans are by nature social beings, as the ancient Greek put it: zoon politicon. Beings of the polis, of the community.

I don't know the answer to all these problems combined with Socialism, but I think, you ROR, should be aware that Socialism is a very very dangerous tool to gain power, to establish power structures and to establish suppressive, murderous political architectures. We all cannot remain naive about Socialism when we look back to the most recent historical catastophies.

Alberich the Dwarf

Robnoel: Of course ROR is a lawyer. And proud of it apparently. ....I thought that was common knowledge. ....... Actually, there is nothing wrong with being a lawyer, as there is in being a lawyer legislator. Being a lawyer or lawyer legislator with delusions of taking part in a mighty social experiment; is another matter entirely. Especially, when the issue is really maintenance of the lawyer's personal income. ......At someone elses expense.

Here's the picture from Hong Kong a couple of months ago. I wonder how the average US investor is going to take it if their investment firm turns turtle in a US stock market crash. Scene's from the future?

http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/special/asia/asia5.html

-EJ

My personal curse to you on the 4th of July.

If you need a brain surgery, let the surgeon in charge of the operation turns out to receive his doctor sertificate through affirmative action.

Are France, Japan, Germany and Sweden the murderous state system of which you speak. Why do I always hear about Hitler or Stalin?

Why are you filled with such hatred?

salesmen.....sorry ROR I have meet many of your proffession,all I can say is ...what do you call a lawyer up to his neck in cement.....not enough cement

Aberich: Many thanks for that last post. It's about the most thoughtful, on the subject of socialism, to appear on this forum. ...... For some unknown reason, Americans have a strange proclivity for interfering in the lives of others without regard for personal rights or the consequences of the interference. It seems that if an argument is able to pass emotional muster, it must be good and therefore in the public interest. Whatever that interest may be.

But, you are correct; at the end of the day, the ultimate issue is power. Nothing else. All other issues are subordinate to the need to seize and hold power. At all costs.

Are you an insurance company executive..confess please!

This picture shows an elderly Thai man growing crops to support his unemployed children. He has the "luxury" of this alternative means of generating income. How will unemployed parents in the US support their unemployed children when the worldwide depression rushing in from Asia washes over US shores?

http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/special/asia/asia3.html

Call me paranoid, but I'm saving every dime I can get my hands on.

-EJ

My personal curse to you on the 4th of July.

If you be to reborn anew, let you be born in a America whose founding fathers were forsed to include into commite responsible for writing the Constitution:

mentally challenged persons
representatives from all economic strata of the society
all ethnic minorities ( more than 100 indian tribes )
trial lawyers

And finally, let you live in the time of the great bloodshed that will
follow such constitution.

Slogans for the brave new world:

Vivat the equality of idiots and genuises!
Computer Geeks are no better than groceries baggers!
Each coward deserves to lead an army into battle!

ANS American ingenuity, we will have to re order the monetary and social system along more egalitarian lines in the economic sphere with greater emphasis on participatory democracy over its current representative form.
Ensure the power of the COURTS as an offset to any potential abuse.

is a lawyer and socialist,we get along until
we talk politics....here is something I would
like you to comment on in relation to health
care
http://www.gold.globalcenter.net/hhs_id_fullt
ext.html

Because I know of too many blood spilled by people professing equality to have any respect towards them. It easy to destruct what appears to be
bad -- only to find out that what comes in place of what was distructed is much much worse.

By the way, are you willing to sacrifice your brains for the sake of
such "affirmative action" brain surgeon getting paid? Or you want somebody else to be in your place, uh?

in a history text book in the section on The Great Depression of a man on Wall Street selling his new car for a hundred bucks. Can't happen here again, tho. Nope. Forget Reaganomics, we've rediscovered Keynesianism again. We've ended stock market crashes and deflationary depressions forever. Just push a lever up here and turn a knob to the right there, er, or was it turn a lever down and the knob to the left. Um, well, anyway, it's all under control, yup. Just like in Thailand, and South Korea, and Japan, and China, and...

http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/special/asia/asia2.html

-EJ

your wheelbarrow to contain about 5500 pounds of gold! I don't think you should chain yourself to it as it will collapse under its own weight! ( someone with a reference table should be able to tell you exactly how much, but this will give you an idea at least )

http://www.gold.globalcenter.net/hhs_id_fulltext.html

your web site did not connect.

So they want a health care identifier what is wrong with that. It might help prevent the rampant fraud which is damaging the system.

ROR: I was agreeing with much of what you were trying to say until you came to affirmative action. Living in what many of the posters here think of as a Socialist country --and I have to say that I love it-- I don't recognise the comparisons to Nazi Germany or the USSR as being relevant to my life at all. Certainly there is more freedom of movement here than in the US and there are a lot more national political parties so that if you buy the idea of elections at all things are better here when it comes to political expression too.

But we had a short taste of affirmative action in Ontario for about the first 5 years of the nineties and it was ended immediately after the election of a Conservative government --nobody had complained very much. Affirmative Action was of course a US import. Never had any slaves and never needed to dull any related guilt--so some goofs imagined it. But they are out of power and the affirmative action of the electorate put them there funnily enough.

The topic here has strayed far from goldbuggery today. But what sort of people contribute money to charity, feeding the poor, buying books for schoolchildren, etc to any great extent? Gagnrad the middle of the road conservative contributes about 12% of his after tax income to such things. Al Gore the 'Progressive" contributes about 1/10 of 1%. How much does ROR the socialist contribute?

or other news organization with publically traded stock. It's a picture of the president of Yamaichi Securities Co. crying at a press conference in Tokyo in Nov. last year when Yamaichi announced that it had decided to close down.

http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/special/asia/asia4.html

-EJ

ROR, if I have misinterpreted your most recent message I apologize beforehand but from what I have read I gather you think government and regulations are the solution. Is that fairly accurate? If it is I must disagree. If one reads history long enough you would come up with a slogan such as the gun buffs use. It would go like this. People don't kill people. Governments and institutions kill people. I regard government and the tidal wave of regulations that issue forth from them the real danger.

For fear of introducing an off subject post ( not Socialism, Y2K related ) I'd like to further the discussion of South African golds begun last night by Mr. Disney.

South Africans have jumped from roughly 8000 to 10800 basis the JGAI index. ( See Yahoo quotes under symbol: ^jgai ) This jump corresponds pretty well to the depreciation in the currency from 5 Rand to 6.3 Rand to the dollar. Mr. Disney suggests this is only the beginning, that the profit margin of the South Africans in Rand and dollars will expand significantly as a result of the higher rand gold price and that this will be recognized by American gold analysts come September or there abouts leading to buying and higher share prices reflective of expanding margins brought about by the higher rand price for gold.

Correct me, here, but I see this an being quite an opportunity.

Assume South African Gold mining company had
pre devaluation revenues of 100 rand
pre devaluation costs of 80
pre devaluation pretax of 20

Following a 26% increase in Rand gold
Our South African gold mining company
would have
post devaluation revenue of 126 rand
post devaluation of costs of 80 thus
post devaluation pretax of 46

converting the 46 post devaluation pretax profit to pre devaluation dollars = 36.8 pre devaluation equivalent.

In this example a 84% increase in pretax profit.!!!!

SOMEBODY QUICK - where is this wrong, before I go out and load up on more HGMCY!!!!

John Disney where are you.

.......sorry for the interruption . . . we return you now to Y2K, Freemen and other lively discussions.....

http://www.gold.globalcenter.net/legislation.html

I believe a slow down in the US has begun and officially it will become a recession by the fourth quarter of 1998. As deflation accelerates and the country sinks into a recession which will become very severe, the US government will devalue the US dollar via a very large rise in gold.. I believe the increase in gold price will NOT have an appreciable effect on easing the recessionary trend . In other words, the deflationary trend will continues until it exhaust itself and gold will soar at the same time. It's difficult to see how in the world you can lose at this juncture in history with such an investment policy. That is the end predictable way.

Again you believe anything to create equality is Marxist. This is your upbringing but not accurate. Most attempts at equality throughout history have been positive. The exception has occurred in either a non demmocratic environment or when the excesses of the elite had gone too far so as to result in nothing other than a bloody non logical response. Those of us who are pushing for more economic democracy are fighting against the nasty result..those who are self satisfied today are asking for the worst result which they believe is their right as after all they deserve everything they have got and have no advantage.. It sounds more like to me "let em eat cake" and the rest is history. In sum, progressives are trying to preserve an orderly balanced society where one group does not dominate another to such an extent to result, in the end, in the violence you so rightfully decry.

I would guess that there are some who would wonder about the continuing socialism thread and its connection to gold. And yet, at least to me, it's almost at the center of the gold issue.

Debased societies and debased currencies are part and parcel of the same phenomonon. The need to maintain political power; no matter the cost. But sooner or later the cost must be recognised and settled. In my belief system, it will not be a matter of choice. Rather it will be the inexorable will of natural law. With the obfuscations of temporal law to the contrary.

ROR is of the opinion that FDR is destined for beatification. The last chapter of his legacy is yet to be written. It now unfolding before our eyes. In truth, FDR taught our political system how easy it is bamboozle the electorate in the process of achieving total power and control. That is the lesson to be learned. The price of that lesson has yet to be determined. The ROR's of our world picked up the lesson very well. They understand its power explicitly. And are determined to put it to good effect, on their behalf, at the first opportunity.

Fortunately, the broad sword of cold economics will intervene in the years ahead. Those who would use social stupification for their own ends will find their legal ends met but strangely, the circumstances of the world will have changed somewhat and the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of others will have disappeared as well.

In the end, those who possess personal resources, beyond the pale of other men and systems will prosper and be able to extend the center digit to those who would enslave us on their behalf. Those who do not ....... well, they can always file a suit against us. I suppose.

We all have drivers License why not an ID card..where is the danger? Maybe it will keep illegals out..this is not a threat..they have it in many European countries. They have a National ID card for Health Care in Canada for God sakes.

Talking to a brick wall has little effect. Would you folks with a little common sense, please not respond to ROR's hogwash. PULEASEEEEE!

Democrats......plus he is a work in progress,who knows he may just see the light one day

Reify: Good call on the Nikkei. Once again the Japan gloom and doomers havce counted their chickens too early. Where do you see the Nikkei going from here?

The established social/economic system established in these states is probably best characterized by calling it a social welfare system. This system has a lot of socialist elements. That's true.

Is that good or bad?

When I compare it with the American social/economic system I really don't know if I would like to recommend this European/Japanese system to the Americans. True, there are pros and cons. But at the end, I don't see what could be gained. It probably would finish off a lot of small businesses here in America. These "socialist laws" are expensive, they are open to be misused all the time and do they really bring a lot?

The best way to deal with poverty is to lower taxes, to eliminate real estate taxes, to give the poor a chance to obtain and hold property, taxfree.

in the US has not occured yet because of the confidence engendered by our rule of law. The Courts and Law and Regulations have acted as our gold as they ensure property rights which is the main reason gold is owned..ie ..nongovtal money. When it is perceived the govt protects thosae rights thru law gold is less in favor. This is why any social disruption in the US will be bullish for gold. Notice how now the news is so cheery. Problem is this is protecting Wall St et al as the rest of the real economy sinks due to corporate greed. This is why goldbugs will be right and soon and why the finance ministers have had constant meetings over the last two months.

Well, in principle, I agree with your last post. But here is the mistake
you are probably making:

In country of strong goverment there is only one opressor - the goverment
itself. So, no real balance is possible. In a country with many wealthy
individuals and corporations, there is always a potential for balance -- since those wealthy, if there are many of them, are the best counterbalance to a strong goverment. Liberals usually miss this point completely: goverment and wealthy individuals are the two evils, balance of which might create a balanced society.

Another objection to your equality drive is a more practical:

von Bismark once said: Revolutions are concieved by genuises, are implemented into practical solutions by ordinary people, but only thiefs
benefit from the results of the revolution.

So, when I discuss an idea, I look at how the idea will stand the
"implemented by ordinary people" test, and how many thiefs will benefit from its results. I agree with ideas of equality only when practical means of there implementations are close to ideas of French enlightening.
If there is violence ( goverment enforsed laws included ) -- then most likely only the thiefs will benefit at the end.

Another Bismark idea: If you want to make a social experiment, choose a country you don't like.

Here are some quick links on the subject. ROR you'll be interested in the notes on immediate versus delayed results. What does this have to do with gold? Well gold is a resource that the animals are to stupid to own but must have someone to care for.

http://downtown.ala.net/~bstrick/animal.htm

Part of a set:
http://www.globalserve.net/~glamont/afrmbegn.html
http://www.globalserve.net/~glamont/afrmruss.html
http://www.globalserve.net/~glamont/anfrmbbn.htm

Jins @19:07 - If Mr. Disney spoke of the increasing SA Stock Market LAST night then I am afraid that I must correct your statement in that it was our friend vronsky who initiated that thread late yesterday afternoon, early evening.
ROR - What, pray tell, does God have to do with my healthcare card ( which BTW, Canadians pay for through inordinately high taxes anyway ) . I have just tuned in and have not read all the previous discussion ( or nonsense as the case may be ) but if your point is that ID cards are harmless - I Aree - to a point. After all we all have Social Security cards already and most also have birth certificates, drivers licenses etc. When they want to start worldwide fingerprinting or retina ID - that is the point when we should all take up arms, grab our gold and head for the hills...
( to be continued in a pay for view serial novel! )

You stated ther is only one oppressor and that is the govt. I think you are looking at the govt in a vacuum. If you have a govt it aklways has vast legislative power and the power to raise revenue by law. This is awesome. The argument is never really about intrusive govt as it will always be viewed as intrusive by those which it does not ITO sufficiently benefit and as a savior by those ITO believ they are helped. So its not really about govt but how its assets,influence and power of govt and legislation are wielded viv a vis the competing parties within a society. If regs on the Insurance industry are perceived by the industry as too onerous then "its get big govt off our back"..but too those who were helped by these theoretical regulations Govt just enhanced competition and increased efficiency and reduced costs. Govt is not good or bad it is just govt and your view depends on how its power influence and purse strings are utilised. For the insurance or any other industry to ask for govt to get off its back is ludicrous given their lobbying for handouts that would shame a welfare mother.

I just wonder, do really read my posts? Do you really want to discuss
something?
Bye-bye.

Goldfevr-- Thankyou for the comprehensive answer, I have it printed and will go over it to extract the full meaning. I have only 6 months experience investing abiet a very interesting 6 months. Gold suggests itself as an organizing principle, it's the one thing just about everyone belives in. The world could be organized around it. Supply and demand, and gold. Maybe when the house of cash comes down thw world will be forced to consider gold to put things back together?

Bill2j- Right, lawyers and judges and laws ad nauseum. On all levels different democratically elected bodies pile law after law over our heads and tell us ignorance is no excuse. We have no protection, the little community I live in passes one contradictory ordinance after the other to please various factions. Hilarious actually, in a cynical sort of way. Our situation would leave the Greeks of old doubled over with laughter.
I don't respect any of it, I keep my law in the closet. Safe bet that a lot of goldbugs do.

Too bad somebody couldn't have done an evil deed and poped Adoplh early on, Lenin too. Evil has it's uses, and good can be a real pain. I would like the guy on the bottom to get a better break, that doesn't make me a ist of any kind. Supply and demand ala Goldfevr, I 'll settle for that. OK Robnoel? OK ROR?

Mooney: You are unduly concerned. "They" have nothing but the purest of motives for national ID's and such. It will ALWAYS be in our best interest. ..... BTW, you will have some difficulty seizing a firearm. Yes? ...... No matter. When that day comes, I'll meet you at a border crossing and give you one.

government and the governed.

Reminds me of a conversation with Larry Stites, the national editor of the NY Times in 1980, at a conference on the press that we, as journalism students, held at our university. I had recently interviewed Dr. Chomski about his book The Washington Connection that documented a kind of systemic collusion between the US government and the mainstream press during the Vietnam war. I asked Larry what he thought of the book. He said, "Well, wherever you have concentrations of power you have control of the media. They ( the USSR ) have their politburo while we have our major news organizations. That's the way it is. So what's the big deal?"

Right now, the mass audience of the American press believe that the current system is working, because that's all they hear, except that it's not working for many of them. They are told that if it is not working for them, it's because they are not smart enough or working hard enough. What happens when the current system, that's been placed on a pedestal before all for the last twenty years, fails? Those who are targeted to represent it will be discredited and vilified. Gee. I wonder who that might be?

-EJ

ROR: Your argument that any social disruption in the US will be bullish for gold is right on the money. Gold only does well for an extended period when capital starts to run scared. The fundamental factor behind the gold bear is not low inflation, CB selling, or CB leasing, although these all played a role. No, gold is in the dumps because of the tremendous growth in the power and confidence of US capital in the 1990s. Anything that puts this train into reverse will be very bullish for gold.

I am amused by all the pro gold right wingers here. The idea of a pro-gold right winger really is an oxymoron. For pro business right wing economic policies are the gold investor's biggest enemy.

ROR: Is it not equally shameless for the legal profession to pander to govt for the opportunity to enlarge its opportunity for litigious activity? Your every post is pointed in that direction. ...... If you and your colleagues were willing pursue social justice on a pro bono basis, your detractors would lose most of their arguments. ..... You don't, therefore we won't.

Details come out over the next few weeks.

DOW down 10% by end of July?

Yes, I've got gold.

-EJ

Old Gold: Your continuing argument is absolutely correct. Capital in peril or fear of peril, is good for gold. But, I think you are misjudging the philosophical thread. ...... Not that it matters a whole helluva lot. This thing is on rails and beyond the control of any of us.

Doing things like chaining myself to an over grossed wheel barrow

is one of the reasons I think they are coming to take me away. So much for that plan. Until you pointed it out I thought it was perfect. Does that mean that selling all my AU stocks last week was wrong also???

At the risk of overstepping my "newbie" status I make the following comments: I personally prefer the ( sometimes ) ranting of F* to all this latest socialist tripe!! At least when Farfel was rational ( MOST OF THE TIME ) , his comments and posts were clear and to a point. I think that ROR is enjoying himself to the detriment of the subject which matters here: markets and gold. Granted there is relevance, as if we move to the realm ROR seems to espouse, there certainly will be NO free market capitalism! I tried to hold my tongue on this, even went out on the porch in a thunderstorm, watched it through to the end, had a couple of cold ones, until a pair of GOLDfinches came to eat at the feeder. I took this as a sign that I should speak. This will be the only comment I make on this subject except that I think Bart should follow his guidelines and "404" any ( myself included ) who continue to stray and purposefully lead others astray.

Mtn Bear: Gold is going up. Buy now. You betcha.

Thanks it couldnt be better said. Which is why I always find it amusing that the gold bugs are so right wing and pro insurance and Big Business.

http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/plot.html

Thanks for your observations. They pretty much echo the impressions I got during my visit. Its a great looking state. It needs to get rid of the social engineering. That was a shame about the general, a brave man.

Most U.S. corporations' executives would probably welcome the chance to use their golden ( should say paper, it's worth more ) parachute, then shop for another plum position.

Earl @19:21 - Good one! Quite agree. No fooling mother Nature or cancelling economic truisms.
JP @19:18 - Your scenatio makes sense and if we act on its premise and stock up on physical, stocks and call options we just maybe smiling BIG BROAD SMILES in the next couple of years. The last couple of sentences were disjointed ( B- ) but your thoughts ( A+ ) came through AOK!
Robnobel - e-mail me if you will!

You boys sound like a bunch of philosophers today. Reckon its a good day for it...flag wavin' & fireworks. My daddy used to say philosophy is like sticking your hand down your pants...if that's all you got, that'll do. Me, I caught me a mess of cats today and I'm gettin' ready to fry 'em up so I can't stay. Just wanted to stop in and wish everybody a happy Fourth of Ju-ly from Shawnee country...

robnoel - excuse me! Please e-mail me if you will! And yes you are right! This is a really good URL to have handy! ( Made in Canada you say? )
http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/plot.html

A little late, but good information is always a good bet. MJPL, try this URL and see if you believe that energy cannot be made from "nothing" or "water", perhaps it's cousin. Information is king. My very best.

Read the following...

http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/device.htm

this is the homepage for the article to extract additional information.

http://www.friend.ly.net/user-homepages/r/rcolvin/#Introduction

to provide employment for the members of his extended Japanese family that work for his corporation, and he feels that he has personally failed them and is ashamed. The paradox is that the effort to protect the employees according to the Japanese model of socialistic capitalism, in contradiction to sound business practices, caused the company to fail and thus the loss of all employees' jobs.

The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

-EJ

...while the fish are frying. ROR, I enjoy your observations about right-wing politics. I knew one of those boys in Ft. Davis, Texas, who declared Texas to be an independent republic last year and subsequently went to jail. When he was younger, he was a hippie-wanna-be ( He DID inhale ) . Then he grew up to be a "right winger" out to unseat the authorities. I reminds me of a line in an old Who song..."A parting on the left is now a parting on the right, and the shotgun sings the song." If a man truly wants peace in his life, make friends with your wife and make friends with your neighbors. Unless you got that, gold & guns ain't gonna do you any good. Uh-oh, here she comes, I gotta go....

ROR: Your living in a dream world. Please find one post on this site that is supportive of Big Business or Insurance companies. In my time here, I cannot remember even one. ...... Please bear in mind, those folks are in your camp. Not ours. .... Just like you, they use the system to further their ends we don't.

I would be my guess that everyone on this forum would love to do nothing but talk about gold and gold related things. The problem is there is not much to talk about. As near as I can tell it ( gold ) only goes down in price. Leastways I don't recall it going up for quite awhile. That being the case we are all sitting around waiting for it to show some signs of life so we can either unwind our losses or jump in buy at the bottom. Problem is the bottom is a moving target. It keeps going lower. I'll be the first to give up rubbish talk and talk about gold if it ever goes up.

Glad to see ya on the Kitco sight again.

I like your more recent posts much better than the rah-rah "go-socialism" stuff I saw the last time. Much more rational.

Have you ever read the two Jack London books I recommended a few posts back? I am mainly thinking of "The Iron Heel". It is the best justification for socialism I've ever read, though "People of the Abyss" isn't bad either.

I understand your passion for socialism. It is so obviously based on a passion for justice and equity. Where you and I differ is that you trust lawyers, politicians and bureaucrats and I don't. I believe that the solutions you advocate will just put enormous political power into the hands of people who have demonstrated time and again that they cannot be trusted with it, and final result will be a brutal tyranny. I respect your motives, I just don't agree with your final conclusion. It seems dreadfully naive to me.

Slingshot: Perhaps you missed it. ROR is a lawyer by trade.

They will be lower than expected.

Bill2j - At this point in time I would have to disagree. Gold ( In American dollars ) has been forming a sideways channel fot the past six months. It is bouncing up and then down, up and down, but is basically confined to a rectangular box price limits of which are ( approximately ) $310 to $280. When it breaks out of this box ( on either side ) one might bet accordingly.
Long term one can hardly go wrong by being long - short term the bears have been winners.
He who laughs last laughs loudest.

One last parting shot at government before I bury the hatchet and go back to gold. Government is not about governing and justice. ALL governments are about power. The power is acquired through the dispensing of money and favors. The money comes from the people that are taxed. Look at it like this. The government is the guardian of the hog trough. The revenue from taxation goes into the hog trough. The pigs that get to feed at the trough of public money is decided upon by government. The power to decide which pigs get to eat at the trough and how much they eat is pretty heady stuff. The Romans, who were great record keepers, have records of complaints involving kick backs paid to the guys hauling gravel to build the Appian Way. Same story for thousands of years.

Lord Almighty, I hope you are right. The reason I am so pessimistic is the ever growing belief that the CB's have finally succeeded in decoupling gold from the concept of being money. The perception is that gold is just another industrial metal that is over priced in relation to it's number of uses. I was watching CNN today and caught the tail end of some talking head. She sniffed and allowed as how no one with any sense thought of gold as an "investment" any more. It was just another industrial commodity with very limited use. The thing that sticks in my mind is the fact that it has been so many generations since there has been an economic bump in the road that most people can't even comprehend there being one. My daughter looks at me like I am some kind of nut case when I try to talk about hard times. She says the government would never allow and besides it has never happened before so why worry about it now.

I forgive him. My experience with lawyers so far has been 2:1, i.e. two of the lawyers I hired did the job I hired them to do right well, one of them simply ripped me off. Not sure if any profession would rate better. My experience with contractors has been much worse.

Socialism is such an appealing solution. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". ( I know, I know, not strictly socialism, that quote is from the communist manifesto ) . Those who've tried it have found that it utterly fails to produce wealth for the masses or to provide the equity that ROR pines for. Turning the reins of business over to government! What a joke. Please don't mistake my praise of ROR's rational posts for a conversion. I know better than to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning.

can blow any left-wing socialist argument out of the water...with facts and documentation....make my day ...pick a topic...go for it

http://www.kitcomm.com/pub/discussion/goldyield1.jpg
Note how the m/a of gold is a leading indicator of bond movements

My parents, who lived through the Great Depression, say the same thing. Somehow the same idiots that got us into the VietNam war and gave us the Great Depression, etc ad nauseum are infallible beings who wouldn't let us into another mess like that.

But we here know that the gov's done it time and time again. Throughout history fiat money has been the way to disaster. I think the advent of the computer has allowed more outrageous fiddling and will, in the final analysis, bring a greater fall. If you can convince the people that you're so smart you can lead them out of their troubles, they'll give you the reins of power. You can live the high life until reality strikes ( and maybe beyond if nobody can trace your numbered accounts ) .

Slingshot: " I know better than to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning." ......... There is a difference. Yes? ...... Posted in the frontal lobes for future use. ..... You may see it again. {:- )

Earl @19:54 - Which border crossing? And how will I make it there, through all the panemonium, without 'ole Bessie? AAR Earl, you misread my post. I did not say grab other people's guns and head for the hills, I said "...that is the point when we should ALL take up arms, grab our gold and head for the hills..." ALL - as in a cooperative movement of anti-reactionary brotherhood. ( Of course if you can't immediately find your like-minded brothers in the immediate crisis yo should not waste time looking for them but pack up your own and skeedaddle for those hills yur ownseelf! ) ( Don't worry Selby - I've not gone off the deep end and I'm not into the Canadian tonight - its just this July 4th revolutionary spirit and respect for the true ideals of the yank Founding Fathers working itself out. ) And BTW, Earl, just because we are not so vocal about our right to bear arms, don't assume that many law abiding Canadians don't have them. Forget the Alamo for now and check out the War of 1812! Actually that brings me back to my subject title "the Rocket's Red Glare" ( if you get my drift ) and bombs bursting in air, and, oh yeah, is that Flag still there?
Happy 4th of July America!

My father once told me that it takes three generations to lose the collective memory of events so they can be repeated again. He told me that the same events have been happening throughout history but it took a couple of generations for the bad memorys to be wiped out. None of my employees, none of my children and very few of my neighbors are old enough to remember any of the events you described. My children don't really know anything about Viet Nam and WWII has as much relevence as the war of 1812. The great depression is completely out the picture. I doubt if you could get young people today to even believe it happened. The other day I had a young turk tell me that the stock market might correct someday but it would always go right back up again. Oh well.

http://www.yesic.com/~john/tfiles/science.txt

Mooney: Akchooly, any border crossing between Thunder Bay, Ont and Blaine, Wa will do. If you can make it. .......That's a lot territory.

Thunder Bay preferred. For, in the unlikely event that our civilized bretheren in the northern suburbs should feel compelled to "take up arms", things will be so bad that I would likely be holed up in the land of my birth. Northern Minn. Freezing my buns and subsisting on a diet of venison and rutabega. Though I'm not fond of either.

"I know better than to mistake clear reasoning for correct reasoning." is cousin to "figures don't lie but liars can figure" and "garbage in, garbage out". "Correct reasoning" can lose an argument with "clear reasoning" by acceding to false assumptions.

I'm not here all the time so I don't always respond as soon as people send a message to me. Thank you Sharefin for the effort to make that chart available on Kitco. I myself like a 10 week moving average, he used a 50 week moving average, but it tells the same story.

This data goes back to 1974, just after they allowed US citizens to own gold. Since that time gold has lead the yield on the US long bond by weeks sometimes months. That is a reliable 24 year track record. I suspect that one day as interest rates are going to new lows gold will start to move up in earnest and shortly all hell will break loose.

The m/a if 50 days = 10 weeks trading days.
I couldn't plot it in weekly so used daily with a 50 day m/a.

Will post some more charts from your data soon.

Thanks very much.
Send the next lot when ready.

How many times have you see some really inteligent people come togeather in a committee to work out a "solution" to a problem and only come out with some stupid idea any one of the authors would like to keep his name off of the credits? In my life time this is a problem with a committees I seen, ya I have been forced into doing stupid things to in a committee also.

Well that is just one of the many reasons why socialism will never work as well as why the US and the "Free World" ( Not my term for this side of the Iron Oxide Curtin ) is going to be chastized in the years to come. To much power is given to committees to do to many things that really should be left for individules to do for themselves

Hot dogs, potato salad and beer and a hometown parade! Crazy freedom lovin' gold bugs makin' comments on the screen of my computer.

Must be the 4th of July.

Hot diggity. Happy 4th to you all.

The road to hell is paved with bad intentions and actions a la the criminal CHAIN SAW AL DUNLAP of Sunbeam. Japanese mgrs the road to Heaven is paved with good actions ie keep people employed a credit to them. Go Japan, Europe, Communists and nationalists in Russia, Chiapas Guerillas in Mexico, Indians exploding bombs as well as Pakistanis, freedom fighters in east timor and Tibet, go insurrection anywhere which increases the uncertainty of investment CAPITAL as that is how true freedom realy will prevail. They are getting fragile now.

Bill2j and Slingshot Bill's comment,
"...The reason I am so pessimistic is
the ever growing belief that the CB's have finally succeeded in
decoupling gold from the concept of being money.",
has more to do with perceptions that people are force fed than reality. What has happenned recently to prove once and again that Gold IS money and not just a commodity? When the Asian fiat currencies took a dive the price they had to pay to buy Gold rose in almost exact ratio to the decline of their currency units. I have not even taken the time to check tables of statistics to back this statement up, so sure am I that this is true. Gold is not true money? Not recognized as such by people around the world? Give me a break. Save your sanity. Watch as little of the talking heads as possible.
On other matters: Someone mentioned Amazon here on Kitco on Friday. I checked it out. Yearly low - about $8.00 Years high - about $125 1/2 Thursday's close - about $124. Thursday's volume - about 8,000,000 shares traded. Mooney's Guess, ( even phoned my two favourite stock brokers on this one, but place your own bets at your own risk! ) , - SHORT of the MONTH! If taking a flyer its always wise to have a fairly tight stop loss.
Night All - Been a slice! Mr. Cherokee...Where Arrreee Youuuuu! And Goodnight Glenn - wherever you might be! And Glenn, don't forget to move to Idaho before June 1999.

Sharefin: That was a great URL for the "back to the bush" crowd. I was as captivated by the elegantly formal prose as I was by the recipes. .... Back then, if you needed it; you had to make it yourself.

Oh Yeah! Thanks Sharefin!
Earl - Turnips and deer meat sounds delish to me! You still don't know about the War of 1812 - do you? We took up arms and repealed the Yankee sons of ...., ( Hey - sorry, its your day isn't it? ) , right back across the border from whence they came!

Mooney: Are you sure of your history? .... Mericans may be repulsive occasionally but are never, or seldom, ever repulsed. ..... Comin' over for the fireworks?

http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/plot.html

This may be of use to you.........

thanks again for more excellent charts;
could horizontal/time 'axis' be included, for these;
& in the future... in any/all future 'gifts'/charts...
that you share with us/contribute here?

thanks,
David

Mooney* ( Mass Manipulation of Mindless Masses by Mass Media )

.....here in Australia, the Media NEVER quote the gold price in AU$, only in US$. The result, non-mining people "think" that gold is dead !

The "local" Aussie gold price is reasonably healthy, in terms of the local mining industry. Pity the AU$ is stuffed...........

....I'm crying in my 4th of July beer. You went back to cheerleading!

But still I sympathize with your overall feelings. In many ways, employees have more at stake in how a company is operated than do shareholders, yet all decisions are made with shareholder value alone in mind ( or the board isn't doing its job ) . This is a flaw in how current system is organized, but it is also fixing itself. See Davidson and Rees-Mogg.

All that aside still doesn't solve problem of giving massive authority to idiots in government. Cronies of new socialist masters will get all the goodies, masses still get screwed. This is the way it happens every time the masses vote such a regime into power. You still haven't presented this forum with a logical reason to believe that your brand of socialism doesn't entail the massive loss of individual freedom that socialism historically always has.

Came from this site:
http://www.yesic.com/~john/tfiles/
No index but you can view the files.
Survivalist orientated ++ guns.

Thanks to Squirrel...

Sorry if you misunderstood my response to you. I really believe that poem, even if it refers to the American Revolution, should apply to all freedom loving patriots, no matter from whence you come. I now understand you were being facetious. Most of the time my mind moves slowly, please forgive an old man.

Best regards

http://pacific.commerce.ubc.ca/xr/plot.html

Best adjust plots to cover from 1995 onwards..........

Dependant upon where you are, a GOLD "BOOM" may well already be in progress........currently does not apply to the USA........coming soon ?!

To all of us who live in this wonderful country, I ask you, if our voice were not convoluted by the press, if our true feelings were expressed in the media, would we not have a society much more in line with our REAL BELIEFS AND CONVICTIONS?

My compatriots, we have been sold out to the highest bidder, because we have allowed it to be so. We have been buried by our personal lives, peppered by over-all stress, localization of our concerns, and a pervasive belief that one voice would count for not.

For those nay sayers out there, tell me I am wrong.

As Americans and as believers in the true meaning of FREEDOM, I do believe we have similar agendas when it comes to family, community and country. We have been too busy making our dreams a reality to see that the vehicle for same is driving us toward an abyss. Whom out of the lot of our countrymen wants to dis-agree?

We are 250 million people strong. Is there someone out there who is willing to acknowledge our strength?

The technocracy in place would cringe at a united understanding of FREEDOM and right of will.

How many global kitcoites resonate to this understanding and will be there when the rotary osciallator spews the dung?

I doubt if the "gold boom" is comeing soon here in the U.S. Not with our dollar being so strong. Our dollar is more attractive of an investment than any precious metal. Sorry.

Oops, my previous post was meant for you.

I think you gotta' do what you gotta' do. I don't give advice but can sympathise. Jes' hope you're not spending the grocery money in stocks. IMHO

As for me, I'm committed to go down with the ship if need be, having bought into the relatively low share prices of the last year and having an investor's time horizon instead of a trader's. I may sell some losses at the end of the year depending upon need to stop the tax man from gnawing at my donkey but for the most part I'm in for the duration. And any I do sell at loss will be rolled over as soon as the tax laws on wash sales allow. IMHO

But maybe I'm wrong. If so maybe completely. I'm prepared to accept the consequences of everything I believe in being wrong. In which case I'll retire on social security supplemented by a fat company retirement plan, get food stamps because they are an 'agricultural stabalization program', live in a town where a face of my color isn't a target for crime, drive a big car which gets great gas milage, and send all my descendants to Ivy League colleges for free. IMHO

http://www.golden-eagle.com/research/redbaronndx.html

http://www.golden-eagle.com/research/ORACLEndx.html

Conspiracy............

Gold is beyond the market .... we are only allowed to play at the edges

It's nice to have a perception on issues and places.........

Did the Titanic have an American captain ? It did have a Scots engineer.

Aye, Aye Captain........

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

What do we do Captain ??????????????

Full steam straight ahead ???????

..........Momentum .............

Alan Gore ( The progrssive VP of the USA ) gave over $300.00 to charity last year. Did he give till it hurt, or was this a joke on the women, children, or the oppressed masses?

I think that Allan Greenspan is American???

Metastock has a quirky bug that wouldn't let me show the dates properly.
But the major spaces at the bottom are year intervals.
Still trying to work out this bug.

Getting tired Earl - but yeah - I'm sure - Canadian History major at Uni. - but knew from long before that, living not too far from where the action happened. Are you serious? Rocket's Red Glare and Does our Flag yet Wave in your anthem are words directly referring to a sea battle between Yankee and British ships on the Great lakes during War of 1812. ( Yanks lost the sea battle - thus the question 'Does our Flag yet Wave?'. ) British also burned down the White House in that War. Yank forces having the audacity to cross into Ontario - known as Upper Canada at the time - were hastily given the boot by a combination of Brit soldiers and backwoods militia mainly comprised of local farmers. No unstoppable American Military Machine back then.
Thanks for the invite Earl - saw them at Munising one fine Fourth. Too late tonight. Besides just saw our own on July 1st!
Haggis and Sharefin - thanks again. G'night!

I can finish the series now if your ready

http://www.golden-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html

http://www.golden-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html

http://www.bis.org/about/index.htm

But I could not resist!
Gazebo re: Your 23:09 - For some strange reason when I read your words of wisdom this silly little meaningless quote comes to mind:
'Pride cometh before a fall'. But then - Don't let me rain on your parade!

Murphy was an optimist.

Eventually our Country's problems will overburden us and Kitcoites will rejoice, including myself. Yes, I agree that sometime ( who knows for sure when ) it will be our turn that gold will break out to the upside.
I don't think it will be in the near future, but that is my opinion.

Murphy was also Irish , to be sure to be sure...........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_126000/126196.stm

http://www.bis.org/press/index.htm

12 May 1997

The BIS, and one of their more recent accounts concertning gold.....

It's only 50 years old........

http://www.mises.org/

http://www.aynrand.org/

Fire away.
Thanks.

MURRAY N. ROTHBARD: IN MEMORIAM
preface by JoAnn Rothbard
reviewed by Jim Powell

This book gathers together 32 essays which offer personal, poignant and scholarly reflections on
Murray N. Rothbard, who set such an influential standard for liberty during the past half-century.

Among the contributors are Martin Anderson, Walter Block, Thomas J. DiLorenzo, Roger
W. Garrison, James Grant, Ronald Hamowy, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Robert Higgs, Gary
North, Ron Paul, Ralph Raico, Hans F. Sennholz and Richard Vedder. The book includes an
obituary which chronicles Rothbard's career.

The contributors talk about Rothbard's most important books and articles on Austrian economics,
free markets, government intervention, foreign policy, natural rights and other vital subjects. They
tell how he inspired libertarian scholars everywhere. They discuss his influence on the libertarian
movement. They recall how he made people laugh. JoAnn Rothbard, Murray Rothbard's wife of
more than 40 years, shares her joys and her sadness.

I first met Rothbard more than 30 years ago and have followed his work ever since, but I didn't
realize how much he helped so many peoples' careers. The book abounds with delightful
anecdotes, many of which are new to me. I expect you, too, will get much pleasure from this very
special book.


MR6391W Murray N. Rothbard: In Memoriam ( paperback ) 132p. $11.95

It is a mystery to me why so many are obsessed with indulging ROR. It is a futile exercise and a striving after wind. John Disney's salads are much more interesting.