Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:00 - ID#411259)
..... Squirrel .....

No umbrage here. I have never been shy about bandwidth. I have been toying with the idea of posting some of Kitcos Best, One Year Later as a kind of retrospective comparison with our views and beliefs today. Maybe the best 5 or 6 posts from the same day exactly one year ago.

I sorted the archives by file size and was surprised to find which were the busiest days on Kitco this last year. I was all over the busiest day, but nowhere in sight on the close runner up. I wonder if there is a correlation in the amount of traffic on Kitco and the POG? There goes the demon chartist in me, got to quantify it all.

I would be interested in hearing from the rest out there if this sounds like a good idea.

There would only be two rules:

1: No negative posts. None, zero, null, zip, nada. Only posts that reflect the new spirit of Kitco would be reposted. To accomplish this, I must be allowed to edit a post that has some bile but much else of worth. Any editing would be clearly defined by the ubiquitous ".." before, after, or in the middle of a post to denote editing breaks.

2: I would only repost my own posts. And then only those that turned out to be right. I will be allowed to edit out any mistakes I have made and appear always correct and wise and sage.

( This second point, preposterous as it is and clearly unacceptable to all but the most bored of souls is offered as a negotiating point. It is a rider attached that will be grandly sacrificed in the furtherance of negotiation and cooperation. Used car salesmen sum up this theory by the crude but accurate, "Go in high, and watch em buy". Never cared for the ditties myself, sounds too much like Jessie Jackson or very bad Al Gore rap. )

So the idea is proffered:

A friendly snapshot of yesteryear on occasion?

Or Naught?


(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:01 - ID#335190)
Russian General Rokhlin @ 10,000 attend Funeral service. Autopsy by Military?
8 JULY 1998 .................RUSSIA


The Movement to Support the Army convened an extraordinary congress in Moscow on 8 July to elect a successor to leader Lev Rokhlin, who was shot dead at his dacha on 3 July ( see "RFE/RL Newsline," 3 and 7 July 1998 ) .
Delegates chose Duma Security Committee Chairman Viktor Ilyukhin, an outspoken member of the Communist Party, Russian news agencies reported.
Rokhlin founded the Movement to Support the Army last year and vowed to seek the ouster of Yeltsin and his associates, whom Rokhlin accused of destroying the armed forces. According to ITAR-TASS, Duma deputy Albert Makashov and Vladislav Achalov, founder of the All-Russian Officers' Assembly, were also in the running to replace Rokhlin.

Meanwhile, an estimated 10,000 people, including many prominent opposition leaders, participated in a funeral procession and memorial service for Rokhlin on 7 July, Interfax reported, citing police estimates. LB


Interfax reported on 7 July that the autopsy on Rokhlin was performed at the Defense Ministry's central forensic laboratory.

The results of that autopsy have not been made public. Anatolii Kapustin, deputy head of the Health Ministry's main forensic center, told the news agency that he was "bewildered" that civilian coroners did not perform the autopsy.

Rokhlin retired from military service in January 1996, when he became a State Duma deputy. Kapustin said Health Ministry experts normallyhandle such cases, in light of the fact that the Prosecutor- General's Office--not the Military Prosecutor's Office--is investigating Rokhlin's murder.

Some of Rokhlin's allies believe he was killed because of his outspoken criticism of Russia's political leaders and military policy.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:01 - ID#28594)
The market will no doubt be delighted...US debt increasing!
BT-Thursday July 9

"US risks US$35b rise in trade deficit
Study forecasts steep rise in US trade gap, lower growth globally
Economic troubles in South Korea, Indonesia and five other hard-hit Asian countries will result in a US$35 billion ( S$59.3 million ) increase in US trade deficit and depress growth around the world, according to a new assessment of the year-old currency crisis.

In the most detailed analysis yet of the cumulative effects of the crisis, the Institute of International Finance on Tuesday forecast a US$115 billion hit in trade for industrial countries and a US$46 billion trade loss for developing countries."

COMMENT: Given past experience, one entertains the notion that THIS news should be good for 200 Dow points day?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:03 - ID#252127)
And so it was

That woman knows shes f*'ing with the people and the 38 is her protection in the event of some citizen goes bonkers.
The other A*hole must really be worrying.

Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug
(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:03 - ID#432214)
Gold is cheap and it is not going to $100.00
Not if I can help it.

Total value of all the gold that the central banks own = $300 Billion +-.

1 ) Market Cap of GE = $300 Billion
2 ) Total wealth evaporated in the Asian Crisis to date 1.2 Trillion US
( Four times all the gold that the central banks own )

If the central banks wanted to sell gold then they would!!! And if they do then I will do my Kitco duty and buy all the gold, silver and platinum that I can. Because, I know that one day I will be right

Got any???

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:04 - ID#57232)
G'Nite all!
Great nite tonight, even if our favorite topic is still in the doldrums. Here's to Bart, and the greatest site on the web!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:05 - ID#286230)
You may know more about gun control than I ever will but there are more guns in the hands of the citizens of Kosovo and Albania than there are in the US --and both of them are communist counties. By the way only 35 communists ran in the last federal election and got a total of about 8000 votes as I recall--

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:12 - ID#28594)
Sharefin...share fine...from one Privileged to call you friend:
You, the artist who sees with two eyes, and to your eyes is the center revealed: that still point, as Eliot saw, where the dance is. "And there
is only the dance."

Another Californian, Robinson Jeffers by name, in a poem "Natural Music":
The old voice of the ocean, the bird-chatter of little rivers,
( Winter has given them gold for silver
To stain their water and bladed green for brown to line their banks )
From different throats intone one language.
So I believe if we were strong enough to listen without
Divisions of desire and terror
To the storm of the sick nations, the rage of the hunger-smitten cities,
Those voices also would be found
Clean as a child's; or like some girl's breathing who dances alone
By the ocean shore, dreaming of lovers.

The wheel turns my friend...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:13 - ID#431366)
Gagnrad - a similar experience of a customer in a convenience store
Friend of mine - a Vietnam Marine vet
nearly always is packing a piece.
There he was in the store minding his own business.
When some teenage punks started making fun of him -
calling him an old man, etc.
( the guy looks twenty years beyond his age from
burned out lungs and other injuries and ailments from Nam )
He just reached his left arm up to scratch his head.
The punks saw what was nestled below his armpit.
They profusely apologized and disappeared.
And he went on minding his own business.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:13 - ID#252150)
Gagnrad@I'm the unimaginative one who registered under my first name.
When the other James saw that his name was taken, he thought,anyone can come up with an unusual handle from mythology or sci-fi, etc, but he wanted a truly unique handle. Then in a flash of brilliance it came to him ...drum roll...James2.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:20 - ID#57232)
Robinson Jeffers
SDRer: I you get a chance, please go to Carmel-by-the-Sea near Monterrey, California. That favorite place popularized by Steinbeck. Robinson Jeffers built a small castle there, stone by stone, right near the beach, as a lasting monument to his loved one. Beautiful location with the windswept pines, the barking seals, the otters and the seaweed. That little castle is permanent, and forever pleasing to the eye, just like his poetry.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:21 - ID#207145)
Gold is a no show
for the rest of this year. Equities will have problems in September and October, but will do well starting 1 November. Oil may start to wake up gold this winter, which will be colder than normal. 1999 may well be the big year, or the beginning of much more profitable times for gold and oil. I guess.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:22 - ID#290306)
new isp

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:23 - ID#247273)
RJ, please do not flood us with "golden" oldies......
Your idea is great, but be highly selective toward the relevant.
Look forward, but with one eye in the rear view mirror.
Criterion #1: How does it help our lives today and tomorrow?


(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:24 - ID#207145)
Beginning 1 Jan with the Euro
No more selling of gold by CBs. Oh what a relief that will be for eternally optimistic and broke posters.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:32 - ID#43460)
James, Grizz
Ok James, but which one of you guys wrote the Bible? Now THAT took some imagination, especially the golden rule!

Grizz, its a sad commentary on the world that such events happen. ( Odd though that a peaceful display of weapon plus good will goes much further than no weapon plus threat. The basic congenial politeness of southerners and midwesterners and the surliness of certain others we will not name is based on this perhaps? ) IMHO

But as far as gold is concerned that principle of human nature means that gold will always have value as the money of last resort for nations to purchase weapons of war. For instance with all the debate over the Swiss/Nazi/gold connection we forget that the English bought some mighty fine Swiss made Oerlikon triple A cannons that were used very effectively against the Nazis, probably turning the tide of the Battle of Britain. They could not have done so without gold IMHO.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:33 - ID#57232)
I agree
blooper: The market rally continues until the fall -- all the pros have to do is downgrade all the earnings reports so that every one is pleasantly surprised by the higher than expected earnings. Dow 10,000 coming up.

I did a calculation based on rate of rise ( rather than total % rise ) , and found out that the 1929 market blowoff mania still exceeds anything so far in the current markets. I dont think the market mania has topped yet. But there are a number of factors coalescing that will make 1999-2000 bearish for the markets. Of course we will still have to beware the market suction effect on precious metals equities next year too. All depends on the pending La Nina, and how long it takes to affect US weather. SEAsia may get this cooling before we do, IMHO. We may also have less precipitation.

Keep ( most of your ) powder dry for now. I am not so sure about a cold winter this year -- given the baking in this part of the country. Went to 105def F today. Never been this hot since I moved to the midwest.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:36 - ID#341214)
Tol: Greetings to you on the Island that is soon to be Long Gone
LOL! Hi Tol. Ya dare me do ya. Well, I don't have a way with words like Sharefin does and there are others much better suited to discussing the future price of silver ( my favorite ) and gold ( the demon metal ) but let me share a bit here FWIW. As some of you may know from my postings earlier this year I'm a programmer/analyst with 25+ years experience. Being a believer of the Peter Principle ( everyone rises to their level of incompetence ) I've never crawled up out of the slime ( or is it up into the slime ) to become a pointy haired manager preferring to sling code in the trenches on mid range systems ( HP3000 ) and PC's for various industries.

From about the mid-90's until mid 97 Y2k appeared on the horizon to me as a bunch of dancing dollar signs. They looked pretty and their siren call of "There are many of us and too few of you" was enticing. Since the middle of last year my experience has been that of Sharefin's, first a trickle of "All is not well" which meshed with what I've been seeing and experiencing first hand and then an engulfing flood of information in which I was flailing about. The pretty dancing dollar signs burned away in a flash to be replaced by the true representation of Y2k, a multi-headed, firebreathing dragon seeking to destroy all in it's path.

Will we slay enough heads on the monster to make a calm entry into the next century? No! Will we eventually beat the monster back into the depths from which it came? Yes! But what human events lay between those two points in time? Add our overvalued stock bubble and crippling debt to this mix and one can see a conflagration that is both wide and deep.

Yes, I take Y2k seriously. As others have stated, I hope I'm wrong, I hope I'm over reacting but I won't leave the safety of my family to chance. I've just returned from my second trip to Idaho where we plan to move shortly. We have found the community ( small and far from a metro area ) but are still looking for the house. We have made plans for being self sufficient for 6 to 12 months and are busily trying to put all the pieces in place. The details are endless but there exists a great deal of info on the net to assist in this planning.

Here's my take on silver, the only metal I feel highly UNqualified enough to comment on. Given the current fundamentals, I think we will be surprised by the depths to which silver is driven in the coming months. I think we will be going back under $5 shortly but I'm not sure how far down. After that we may have a summer rally up close to the $6 area or we may head straight for around $4. If this comes to fruitation I'll be buying the physical like there is no tomorrow. At that point I think we will be saying The Silver Bear is Dead, Long Live the Silver Bull!

Namaste to Tol and all!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:39 - ID#93232)
JTF 23:58
Amen. I grew up in a small town and now live in the big city. A year-and-a -half ago, in my hometown, there was a shootout between police and Klan/Nations guys. Fortunately, no one was hurt, but I realized local sheriff's department is intimidated as #^$!@. There's a lot of radicals ( on the right ) in the countryside. And they're very well armed. And I've noticed that there's a lot more gunfire to be heard in the country than in the city on any given day.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:39 - ID#207145)
Si senoir. My positive call on gold in 1999 coincides with the declines i'm thinking will come especially from June 1999 on. I'm not much for falling knives, i've caught my share.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:41 - ID#411259)
..... SDRer .....

If you do make the Journey to Carmel, travel in the spring or fall. Summer in those environs is a dark and dreary time with the sun mostly obscured by a wide blanket of fog. Works real good for romance though. If you want quiet walks along quaint streets as hushed fingers of fog slip over the hills and up the street to coil around you ankles, fine dining with a very small town feel, and artwork from around the world, go in the summer.

If you want to see anything beyond a distance of fifty feet, go there in the spring or fall.

You will then be rewarded with moss hanging from the branches of windswept Monterey Cyprus poking out here and there from a sugar white sand beach displaying one of the most spectacular meetings of water and rock to be viewed anywhere in the world.

And since Carmel and Dirty Harry have both been mentioned in separate posts this evening, a trip to Carmel is not complete without a leisurely toddy or cappuccino at The Hogs Breath, Clint Eastwoods small bar and restaurant. A tiny inside bar on one side and a smallish dining room on the other side flank an open courtyard with a squillion stars overhead to keep you company. The tables are made of driftwood and overhead heaters insure that, absent rain, the courtyard is one of the most comfortable and agreeable places you might ever visit.


(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:42 - ID#207145)
Falling dollar in 1999
Due to the Euro and just being too overvalued, pickup in oil, Asian ,mending all look bad for bonds, banks, ins. companies.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:46 - ID#373284)
fundaMETAList, Namaste' my friend, that is the second time someone has
mentioned the Island that is Long as see both you and the fin that shares so deeply concerned regarding Y2K does give me grave concern. What to do...Well...One thing for sure...I hope you and yours find a house, and are safe there, no matter what happens.

I REALLY hope you are wrong about silver...oh well, what will be, wil be...

A GIANT RESERVA gulp to you and yours...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:47 - ID#207145)
Until 1999, buy
Wall Mart, Home Depot, American Eagle Outfitters, maby Goody's Family Clothing. Check out the chart of AEOS ( American Eagle ) . Consumer spending, Autos Housing is where money will be made.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 00:57 - ID#207145)
My 14 year old daughter
Loves to drag me into American Eagle Outfitters ( aeos ) to buy over priced clothing that comes from all those countries that have fallen to their knees. I know they are very cheap wholesale from Maylasia etc. They are making a fortune. It's almost shameless, buy what the hay thar's life.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:00 - ID#207145)
Sorry bout the lousy typing,
Will go to bet and quit making predictions. My next prediction is that i'm going to bed, night all.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:06 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Chart
Fidelity Select Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

Fidelity Select Energy & Energy Service Chart

Fidelity Select Computers, Electronics & Software Chart

Don't like the "looks" of the 10 day Gold chart, but each LOW
is higher than the previous, so a Short term rally is still in place.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:15 - ID#93199)
A scene from RJ'S next Novel
You will then be rewarded with moss hanging from the branches of windswept Monterey Cyprus poking out here and there from a sugar
white sand beach displaying one of the most spectacular meetings of water and rock to be viewed anywhere in the world....

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:20 - ID#28594)
Happily, I live close enough to Carmel to enjoy 'spontaneous' lunch-breaks that oft last overnight! Carmel, Big Sur, redwoods, sand 'n seathe very American Cte d'Azur, wild, slipping, sliding, never the same, eternal
[and Hog's Breath and Carmel Valley Tennis and{:- ) ) ]
You encourage me to think of lunch! Soon! If not sooner...

RJ please FORGET butleringyour poetic prose, aesthetic eye and informed mind will see you through whatever 'turns-up'!

"We were three lads that thought there was no more behind
But such a day to-morrow as to-day,
And to be boy eternal."

So, I say, "Let's go for it!" Goodnight and thanks. {:- ) )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:27 - ID#215379)
prices will get lower
Metals can not hold on to any one day gains, bad signs. Copper stocks look like we will see historic lows..Reaaallly tired of watching gold, silver, copper go up 1 day and down 2 days...

Paul Gold__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:33 - ID#21484)
DROOY rehedges
Durban Roodepoort Deep has restructured its gold price hedge. See for more.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:35 - ID#215379)
Sell US$ and buy Aus$
Australian gold miners making record profits .... cost of production way down .... pay me in Aus $'s...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:42 - ID#215379)
Does the flatline of Kitco's gold and silver charts mean that gold and silver are DEAD...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 01:53 - ID#215379)
Backwardation ?
With all the producers hedging their production out a year, why aren't the farther out contracts cheaper ?

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 09 1998 02:17 - ID#229103)
For all you Bob Brinker fans
According to this article on Gary North's site, Brinker says he believes Yardeni on Y2K but doesn't believe North:

Pardon me, Bob, but they are singing from the same book.

( Apologies to sharefin since he probably already posted this )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 02:33 - ID#286224)
@ dirt finally noticed?

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 03:04 - ID#24135)
Hold it ..
Suggest temper your enthusiasm for Aussie golds
because of reduction in costs resulting from slide
in Auissie currency ..
Most aussies I looked at SELL forward in Aussie $.
Thus changes in exchage rate either up or dowm have
no effect on profits.
Exception is Kidston .. hedged through 2002 at well
over $450 US. They were a high cost mine .. not so now.
Also WMC hedges via puts in US dollars. They may be
others. Check this CLOSELY before leading the Cheer.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 03:08 - ID#24135)
Musta been a Head Butt!
For AragornIII
Pity you retired early from grizzley fight .. Had
you well ahead on points.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 03:19 - ID#24135)
Crack Russian Unit
for Brother Oris ..
As you must know by now .. Americans have extremely
active imaginations .. also they will believe almost
anything they are told .. they believe in the X-files..
many believe they have been abducted by Venusians..
.. Some believe in a Boer revolution in South
.. Despite their advances in technology.. most
americans are numerically challenged .. and are
unaware of scientific method ..
Now why in the World would a crack Russian unit do
anything so marvellous for America as asassinate all
its lousy leaders ... What did the US ever do for Russia..

(Thu Jul 09 1998 03:32 - ID#290287)
Now wait a minute. I just read somewhere that nearly one half of all Americans have above average intelligence.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 03:51 - ID#290287)
where is everyone?
There once was a gal named Lewinsky
Who played on a flute like Stravinsky
'Twas "Hail to the Chief"
On this flute made of beef
That stole the front page from Kaczynski.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:06 - ID#287358)
Steve Kaplan writes,
"These very low premiums for index puts strongly justify their outright
purchase..." Please, all, give this some thought and tell me what
you suggest that I check out further. Thanks.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:15 - ID#24135)
Kidston .. oboyoboyoboy
Looked at kidston .. their reserves are about 1.5 million
oz .. their resources are 2 million..
They have a great hedge book at 478$/oz through 2002.
Pity they dont have any gold.
Suggestion .. close the mine .. buy gold from
south Africa to fill forward sales ( or sell hedge
book to anglos ) .. make a mint.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:18 - ID#24135)
Sam ..
Thats "above average AMERICAN intelligence" ..
You must remember more than HALF also voted for

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:23 - ID#290287)
Hmmm... where's my calculator...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:35 - ID#255284)

See gagnrad's post last night.. pulled a gun on a punk in a carpark while dropping off a tape, and another poster showed a glint of a holster...don't it make ya homesick?

Telecom NZ is spinning the story about the software "upgrade" that cut telephone lines to 1/4 of NZ, including the capital, so far noone has said anything about Y2K.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:38 - ID#290287)
Hey Ray
Didja see this, Larry King Calls Drudge Readers 'Stupid'? Wearing suspenders will never be the same.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:43 - ID#255284)
Deane Sorry About Glitch in Palmerston North
From - RNZ: Subject - FIN: Date - 1998-07-09

Telecom's chief executive Rod Deane says he's sorry about the
telephone glitch

which happened in Palmerston North this week.

27-thousand telephone lines in the city went dead early yesterday
morning when

Telecom staff were installing new computer software.

And, although most phones were back on by yesterday afternoon,
customers with new services like call waiting may still be cut off.

At Telecom's annual general meeting in Wellington today, Rod
Deane expressed regret at the breakdown and says the problem's
being analysed to try and prevent any recurrence.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:44 - ID#255151)
Here is Stupid

Remember the guy with the balloons and the lawn chair?

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:52 - ID#24135)
Yeah ..
I really miss those days back in
Tombstone .

(Thu Jul 09 1998 04:55 - ID#358318)
hmmmmmm news
Russian reserves down, unsettling currencies, dollar gains
over mark

SEC preparing charges against more than ONE HUNDRED
traders and nearly THREE DOZEN firms on Wall Street in
connection with alleged price manipulation on NASDAQ...
Do I smell a rat?
Who do you trust with your money?

Two Hughes satellites have processor failures, switch to backup
processors. Same type as the one which shut down the
pager network. Wonder what they could have in common?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:00 - ID#290287)
I have always tried to learn from the mistakes of others. Thanks for the link.

It's been a hectic day.
Good night all.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:11 - ID#43349)
Usually the charts and updates being flatline means lots of action going on, but not tonight. Everything is flat. PM's are flat, yen/dollar is flat, and all with very thin trading. Sorta like the calm just before the storm, except there's no sign of a storm....

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:17 - ID#255284)
Not a crooked broker?

I always thought NASDAQ was an acronym for
Not A Soul Departs with Any Quash

Where are the customers' funds?

just watch the scams and cons erupting now...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:29 - ID#358318)
@aurator: Corruption- sign of a market top

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:36 - ID#255284)

I beg to differ. Corruption, theft, fraud, is always about. Just that more and more people get up to it at market top. And, there are many who jump on larceny's bandwagon who do not have ahhhhemmmm larceny in their soul, so they take risks that no self-respecting wide-boy would take, so they get caught, and the press hears. Later, as this circus winds down, we will see the masters of mayhem caught in traps of the inept...It is always so...


Get out of Insurance paper NOW.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 05:44 - ID#358318)

(Thu Jul 09 1998 06:17 - ID#230376)
Why too kay ??????????????

We don nee no stinking y2k

(Thu Jul 09 1998 06:48 - ID#26793)
BIS & BOJ to hold joint press conference in Tokyo on Monday

(Thu Jul 09 1998 06:49 - ID#290306)
Comment - US revolving ( Credit Card ) debt down

So if I read the article correctly, credit card debt was reduced but "other" debt increased? I would venture to say that a "contraction" is not truly in the offing. The sots have simply robbed Peter to pay Paul. Joe SUV took the 125% equity loan on his house - he now has two mortgages which probably total 110% of the current "value" of the place. With the proceeds he "paid off" the credit cards, bought some stock, another toy or two. I'd be willing to wager that he now feels more wealthy, after all his monthly payment load has decreased nominally. However, I'd also wager that he did NOT close the credit card accounts... and those balances will slowly expand over the next year. The unfortunate upshot of this phenomenon ( if I'm close at all ) is that he can now have all his possessions including the house repossessed by the bank if/when the US economy contracts. With that in mind, its no wonder the lending institutions are lobbying for "tougher" bankruptcy laws.

Sharefin - do stop by every now & then.

RJ - why not have the "worst of" as well? Who were the best contrary indicators?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 06:52 - ID#26793)
A broke Japan provides an $800 million loan to even broker Russia

(Thu Jul 09 1998 06:56 - ID#26793)
Japan at risk of deflationary spiral

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:02 - ID#26793)
Key congressman charges IMF with refusing to provide documents needed before bailout vote.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:06 - ID#26793)
Financial chaos in Russia adds to oil glut and foils OPEC plans for price increases

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:10 - ID#413156)

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:12 - ID#26793)
Russia "has a plan" to save the ruble from devaluation. (sprinkle some gold on it?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:15 - ID#26793)
Morning gold news from London

Bully Beef
(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:16 - ID#259282)
Bill Gates is te Devil site is way cool!
I have taken some advise here and that is to hold my gold fund and go on with my life. I have lost some money and hope to make it back when my other funds drop in a crisis situation. Otherwise I think you are best to trade gold on the advise of a broker, shorting if need be.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:21 - ID#35571)
YAHOO reports much higher than expected earnings, therefore the market will be sharply lower today.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:21 - ID#26793)
Monday has the BIS-BOJ joint press meeting then on Tuesday top 19 Japanese bankers meet. Connected?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:27 - ID#39828)
Gold.? Dont worry, she can look after herself and you too.
sharefin. How are you.? Allords sentout a scouting party to
2800. Quite amazing. This time it looks ugly. Might stagger
to 3000 over 4 months. Thats might. My feelings say stagger around.
Could it be a junior gold bull will pump prime these markets for the
collapse. Its looking that way. Just like before.
What do you think.?

Hey John. Sorry about bringing out the voodoo doll. I shall put im back
from where he came and remove the pins and Harmony name tag at once.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:29 - ID#26793)
Russian and Asian financial crisis causing funding shortage to Latin America

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:42 - ID#288369)
We are all eternally grateful to you for your wonderfully powerful contributions to Kitco. The poetry, the, sir, are the essence of Kitco.

May the gods continue to bless you, and in turn, will you give to us whatever spare time you have? My best to you, studio.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 07:53 - ID#288369)
@The flyweight who "contributed" the shallow slam of T#1 last night........
Go away. There is no room here for you.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:00 - ID#289357)
Bully Beef
You'll like this one, too:

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:03 - ID#242325)
Gold taking actual or rumored bad news in much better stride these days. But this criticsl measure still leaves a lot to be desired.

Bottom line -- Bullion still looks like it is headed lower -- but not much lower. And a strong upmove by fall looks like a good bet.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:04 - ID#7568)

Checking the overnight action in the currency markets one thing stood out amid the decline of most Asian currencies. The South Korean Won was actually up better than 1.5% against the $US. Korea is the largest of the SE Asian economies that have taken the big hit. The financial press has had several stories of late about little moans and groans coming from the export sector of Korea that the currency is too STRONG! Given that the currency is continuing to strengthen and is now at multimonth highs it is possible that something important is going on either with respect to trade flows, or capital flows, which may signal that the bottom is in with regard to this important economy.

The strength in the Won may allow an easing of interest rates in Korea and an increase of liquidity in general. With the investment community having factored in a multiyear depression in that part of the world any glimmer of positive economic activity is going to be a large jolt to the current deflationary spiral hypothesis.

For gold, silver, platinum and palladium, this would be good news of the highest order.

And a fine day to all.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:19 - ID#24135)
Two Questions
1. Kidston sells gold forward at $475 through 2002.
Their costs are well above the gold spot price.
They only have reserves of 2 mill oz at most ..
Why not forget it close the mine and buy gold at
295 to meet obligations while making a handy
Abx sells gold all the time at $400
Ignoring the question on closing kidston .. who is
taking this gold and what do they DO with it.
( In ABX's case we are talking 3 mill oz..
.. thats a loss of 300 mill $ a year )

2. After the euro is in place .. say for example
German unemplyment rises to 20 % and Italian
unemployment falls to 3 %. The German Government
wants to stimulate growth in Germany.. the Italians
want to restrain growth to limit inflation. How
do they do this with a ECB and a single currency??

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:25 - ID#28594)
Donald--and Monday there will be a press conference? {:-))
The Hong Kong Monetary Authority ( HKMA ) is to repatriate "billions of dollars" in overseas deposits to the local banking system as part of its effort to ease the SAR's liquidity crisis. Executive director for reserve management Amy Yip York-tak said the authority had already repatriated "several hundred million dollars". Ms Yip said for the past two weeks the HKMA had been sending funds to more than 10 commercial banks in Hong Kong in US dollar deposits. Ms Yip said the authority demanded commercial banks COMMIT TO THREE AGREEMENTS before being eligible to receive money from the Exchange Fund.

FIRSTLY, THE FUNDS MUST STAY IN THE HONG KONG BANKING SYSTEM INSTEAD OF BEING TRANSFERRED TO OVERSEAS BRANCHES. Secondly, the funds should not be used to finance speculative activity against the Hong Kong dollar. And third, they are required to pay market deposit interest rates to the Exchange Fund for the deposits. She said banks selected to receive the funds included large and small institutions and were both local and foreign. She said they all satisfied credit requirements as prescribed by the Exchange Fund's investment guidelines.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:25 - ID#24135)
Add a Pin
.. Hedgehog ..
to that doll.. I have an order in
all week for Harmony adr at 4.25 ..

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:38 - ID#35571)
Silver showing some life, gold quiet

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:39 - ID#374204)
I'm battening down the hatches here
Preparing for calamitous near future.
-Gradually shifting 401k to Money Market & Bonds.
-Put some $US into TSE:Franco-Nevada and a few others
that have held up rather well despite POG doldrum.
-Am considering buying some physical AU, but
have some questions and concerns.

Can the US Gov't. actually confiscate physical from you??
If so, how on earth can this be legal?

When buying physical for such purposes, what is the best
form? Size? Denomination? Sources ( Kitco? ) ???

Very much enjoy mostly lurking this site, and would
appreciate any comments.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:39 - ID#317193)
Disney...your two questions and one more...
1.CBs or government that know a whole lot more than the rest of us folks.

2. Deficit spending or spending prior years surplus by Germany; Italy does the limits spending and creates a surplus.

Now all you have to figure out is how each of the Euro countries gets rid of their current debt. Does the transfer or sale of gold to the ECB do anything?


Crystal Ball
(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:40 - ID#287367)
@ Stilgar
How's the weather on Arrakis?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:43 - ID#289357)
J. Disney

( 2 ) No Problemo.....Buy a bunch of trains with their excess dollar reserves and ship Germans to Italy. What fun, eh?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:43 - ID#147201)
some easy thoughts
Even in the spirit of this fine forum I am obliged to break a rule- YOU have a bad mouth and a bad attitude. If you don't get some perspective, get some help, Charlie

(Thu Jul 09 1998 08:51 - ID#28594)
JohnDisney--re: European labor [or lack thereof]

Stimulate/restrain? Magically, after the Euro, the Italians, the Germans, the French will only concern themselves with European economic activity of the whole, all working together for a "European unemployment rate of 7%! Well, if money is belief only, perhaps they can work THAT same "suspension of disbelief" with jobs? That, at any rate, is the present delusion de jour

re--your point #1: Yes! One wonders why ANYONE mines; surely more efficient, and profitable, to deal with nice clean paper and discard the shovels, picks and chemicals...a wonder isn't it? {:- )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:02 - ID#147201)
The Missinglink
I can't find your email. Howabout sending it?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:04 - ID#258427)

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:13 - ID#289357)
Tantalus @ Gold confiscation in the US
I have a good deal of historical material on this, but my reference material is presently not where I am. I will try to transcribe it and post it to you this afternoon.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:15 - ID#290306)
Crystal Ball
There's a Great Great Grandmother of a storm building. All Fremen should be safely at the Sietch...Thank you for asking.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:19 - ID#358318)
@Crystal Ball, Stilgar
Do you suppose the central banks and water producers on Arrakis have
short-sold 8000 tonnes of water? The Harkonnens threaten to sell
House Atreides treasury notes and buy water... he he

Wearing my stillsuit desert fashion...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:31 - ID#39857)
JD. Adding another pin...............NOW
poor little fellow is getting a bit thread bear.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:36 - ID#374204)
Regards to the Silverbaron
Off to the shop now myself. Will look for you this pm.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:39 - ID#228128)
There is a contradiction in reports here regarding central bank sales of gold stemming from the information provided at the Frankfurt ECB news release the other day. In Donald's 7.15 post on the European gold report they state that individual CBs will not be able to sell gold until 1999. Yesterday R.J. said they would be able to sell gold until 1999 but not afterwards without consent of the European Central Bank. Anyone know which statement is true?

John Disney: My understanding is that each country central bank can act independently regarding monitary policy. So while one is loose the other can be tight. Yesterday someone posted new rules inacted by the ECB. One read that they intend to impose penalties to a country that exceeds money creation at the 3% of GDP rate. Since every country calculates their statistics differently and they all will be tempted to fudge the numbers like crazy, there stands a fair probability that much confusion will reign. There might be an interesting arbitrage situation lurking here in all of this.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:47 - ID#147201)
John Disney and the Euro
I have to agree with JD that if the Euro does fly, the arbitrage potential could be great. Only if the appropriately pertinent internal numbers are accessable. What do you think, John, Charlie

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:50 - ID#147201)
RJ re email
I would appreciate it if you could email me- thanx

(Thu Jul 09 1998 09:53 - ID#284255)

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:02 - ID#350194)
Bully Beef @7:16 Advice of a Broker? Which one? Do all Brokers give good advice? Is this not somewhat akin to playing Roullette? If we rely on others to make our decisions for us we may as well hand-over the keys to the car, the house, and hope that they treat us nice at the nursing home.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:09 - ID#284255)
Canada in the doo-doo - wonder who else?
Check out all the new articles - telling???

Thanks for the cheers - well received.
But I have'nt gone just yet. Just got work to do.
So can't be cyberbound.

Just bring the port, I can cook well - house husband extrodinaire.
Love to cruise through to Carmel.
The sea sound so exotic and sensual.

I just want to go fishin.
Guess I'll have to breed some crayfish in the dam.

Have you heard about the two guys who went fishing in Indonesia?
One did something which confused all his mates.
He sold up everything 2 years back and bought physical.
They all called him a mug.
Now he has to take out his bankrupt mates fishing.
Gee whiz - he sure loves that fishin - great sport an all that - you know.
And only he can afford the scotch.

Once again thanks all.
I'll still be around for a few months yet.
Just not hogging the bandwidth...
Like some of my friends ( :- ) ) ) )

I see the river of gold is in overflow.
Sure is a big river.

Once the banks swell, and the tide turns,
The many move to go with the flow.
Such is the way of life.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:33 - ID#417249)
Does anyone know how to contact Stephen Yorke...
Contributed to SBC Warburg Dillon Read's "Policy Watch" - 11/19/97 recently posted courtesy of the World Gold Council? I would like to read MORE!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:36 - ID#147201)
BUFFORD re your 7/8 18:00
Re CAU you mentioned a fellow named R. Devoto. Do you have an email, URL or other access ti him? There's not many of us around and I'd like to talk to him. Thanx, Charlie my email is

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:49 - ID#289357)
GoldnBoy @ Stephen Yorke

You might try this:

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:49 - ID#229103)
@John Disney - remember, the turnout was very low
"John Disney__A ( Wait.. ) ID#24135:
Sam ..
Thats "above average AMERICAN intelligence" ..
You must remember more than HALF also voted for

The best example I've seen of a Klinten supporter is the woman who appeared in the audience of Chris ( "Hardball" ) Matthews' special from Arkansas. She said she didn't believe that Klinten had sex with Jennifer Flowers. When Matthews pointed out that Klinten testified under oath that he had had sex with Flowers, the woman said again that "she still did not believe it." Now that's a loyal voter.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 10:58 - ID#222235)
@Sharefin, squirrel or someone
How do you make those short lines without double spacing your text? Everytime I do it, it looks OK on preview and comes out double spaced on the screen.

Are you all using a different text editor?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:01 - ID#57232)
The Euro and Gold reserves, Economic divergence
John Disney, All: The 15% requirement is for the Euro only, which at the current time will carry only a fraction of trade exchanges. The vast majority of trade will be in the individual currencies for years -- until 2003 or so. Delphi and SDRer know better than I when Europe goes 100% on the Euro. So - until that time each member is effectively on their own to defend their own currency inflationwise or deflationwise. It gets rather interesting when you consider the fact that ( as I recall ) exchange rates are fixed relative to the Euro. Without floating exchange rates, how does one correct for differences in interest rates, inflation etc.? This is what George Soros warned about.

Well, with fixed exchange rates there is one thing you can do if you are a member of the Euro -- buy and sell gold to maintain a constant exchange rate relative to the other Euro members. The weaker currencies may be forced to sell gold to prop up their currencies. Interesting problem if they have already sold their gold. And -- the ones that do not need to protect their currency -- such as Germany -- will not need to sell.

Interesting dilemma created by the EURO launching -- a defacto gold standard?

Comments, anyone? Looks like trouble ahead if the Euro exchange rates are to stay fixed. I'm willing to bet that the hedge funds are lurking, just waiting for another stumble like what happened in 1993, and England had to bail out of the European Union. If the issue of differential inflation rates, money supply growth differences are not resolved soon, the new Euro crisis could very well be a big one compared to 1993. Gold and the US dollar will skyrocket. Except this time the rest of the world is in no state to have the US dollar rise any more.

Interesting times we live in.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:03 - ID#37292)
This is how I know....
that the great bubble burst of the equities market is imminent: My neighbor's 84 year father-in-law has asked me daily for the past week or so about buying options on a particular insurance stock that has had a sharp increase recently. He has absolutely no concept of what a put or a call is, what is a strike price, what is an expiration date, what it means to say that he is wanting to pay some money for some time which will erode the premium as the calendar marches forward, what "in the money" and "out of the money" means, or how to read the price quotation of the option in the WSJ, if he had a copy. The only thing that has slowed him down from doing so is that his brokerage firm told him they needed a signed options agreement form before he could buy them. He just heard somebody say you could make a lot of money in options and that regardless of how high it already is, it will continue to go higher. That may even be right -- for a while..

The point is, studies show ( as they say on the TV commercials ) that when the unitiated get excited about investing in exotic vehicles they don't understand that are basically highly leveraged gambling games, look out below. Further common knowledge is that the small unsophisticated investor almost always buys at the top and sells at the bottom -- i.e., the little man is always wrong.

This is also the same guy that bought a pair of emus 5 years ago for $35,000 so he could get 30 eggs a year at $5000 per chick, and have someone else look after them for him -- not a bad deal. Some of you will know that scheme didn't work..They are all over the Texas highways at night now from bird farmers who have turned them loose so they wouldn't have to feed them. Emus -- stocks -- emus -- stocks---hard to tell the difference right now.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:20 - ID#358318)
Prometheus - Kitco posting tips
Never, ever post from preview screen.
Hit Return at end of line to make a new...

When posting with CTRL-V, break up
long lines by manually inserting Returns.
Watch out as long lines are wrapped
automatically by Windows so you can't
see the long lines in the edit box.

If I want to preview, I preview, then
go Back to post comment direct.
Some browsers forget what was in
the edit box when you do that so
cut and paste a copy of your text
to a text editor. Also useful if your
web browser crashes while writing post.

Never, ever get water on them or
feed them after midnight.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:20 - ID#24135)
Emus wont fly ..
Everybody knows THAT ..
But I can get you an grade AAA ostrich
for five grand ..

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:21 - ID#26793)
@Dave in CO, John Disney
Half of all Americans did not vote for Bill Clinton. Only 34%? ( seem to recall that number ) of the eligible voters bothered to vote. More than half of those who voted voted for Clinton. Big difference.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:22 - ID#350179)
news to me
SEC prepares Wall Street charges - WSJ

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:23 - ID#32078)
Dave and Disney
Clinton did not get over half the vote. He only got around 45%. Most voters voted for someone else.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:24 - ID#35571)
I used infoseek to search for email address for anyone named Stephen Yorke and found there were only two entries. One for a Stephen Yorke and one for a Stephen D. Yorke. Both in New Rochelle, NY and probably the same guy. Perhaps he could be the one you are looking for? was one and was the other.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:29 - ID#287186)
Promey's posting tips
Promey - I generally just let word wrap take care of itself unless I want to start a new paragraph. In Netscape Comm. 4.0.5 the displayed text of the posts here just automatically rewrap as I change the width of my window.
Do those with MS Internet Explorer not have this feature?
I have heard here that long URLs blow out Explorer's margins.

I posted some other experiences with composition and posting on:
Thu Jul 02 1998 21:47
Thu Jul 02 1998 21:54
I agree with not posting from preview. Weird things happen.
See the above posts.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:29 - ID#242325)
John Disney: Wonder why the rand and the JSE gold index both fell today. Don't the golds go up as the rand falls?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:32 - ID#174239)
Old Gold: Gold trend predictions
Yesterday RJ posted an interesting observation at 18:04.

He essentially said that starting Jan 1999, European CBs may only sell gold with the approval of the ECB. Therofore, if any member bank wants to unload gold they will probably want to do it before that deadline.

Perhaps they won't do this, but just the general anticipation that they might should drive prices down I would think.

When do the 1999 American Eagles start coming out?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:35 - ID#373284)
John Disney_A, Namaste' Still chuckling your 3:19 post is right up there with your
"training mine" comment a month or so ago...a tequila gulp to ya!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:36 - ID#300202)
@Friend Of AnUdder Update-
USA Gold

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:37 - ID#316256)
Thugs, gold, and cetnral bankers
Check out the following:

First article on OKC but second article is definately worth a read.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:41 - ID#242325)
Euros and Dollars
J; On the USA GOLD site this morning Friend of Another staes categorically, that future gold sales by member banks will be for Euros, not dollars.

RJ: Any comments

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:43 - ID#229103)
@Donald, larryn
That's why I said the turnout was low. A lot of Boomers probably needed to replace the leather seats on their SUVs that day.

The turnout here is pretty low today. Did everybody sell?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:43 - ID#373284)

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:43 - ID#212323)
John Disney...don't know if I dare call you Crusty...
...kinda like being introduced to someone as Robert and they start calling you Bobby right away. I'll let you make the call.
Now that I find myself goldless after delirium induced from repeated wall contact to my cracked cranium, I at least have the consolation knowing that you had me up on points. I could have continued the effort, but sometimes that which looks like a wall is actually a stack of bricks that extend ALL the way back...having NO other side. Impossible to penetrate. But then, I'm not here to change people's opinions; just trying to float a few concepts for general consumption and have some smiles in the process. You help to keep this aspect on course.

got pickles?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:46 - ID#350179)
Russia rules out devaluation, upbeat on IMF
..."But the central bank said foreign currency and gold reserves had fallen to $15.1 billion by July 3. The fall from $16.0 billion on June 26 was a sign of how Russia is digging into funds needed to help meet debt payments in the next few months."...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:46 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Donald -- Though unrecognized, Those who did not cast a ballot simply did not vote for THEM, their ideas, nor their ideals! If one REALLY wants turnout, simply add 'none of the above' to the ballots.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:52 - ID#285121)
John Disney, question ???
I read your article on golden-eagle on the Rand effect on SA Gold producers. Do you know why the fall in the indonesian currency had no effect on Borneo Gold in Indonesia. Thanks.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:57 - ID#373284)
If the Coward Erect wants to prosecute parents if their children use a gun in a
crime...Hmmmmmm...can we bring criminal charges against the Coward Erect if the Chinese murder anyone with the weapons and technology he has personally signed off on and given them...Just a thought...the pissant is a joke on a par with nothing seen before...yuk...phooey...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 11:59 - ID#266105)

I've a position in an Australian junior with operations
in Indonesia that predicts a $50/oz reduction in production
costs due the rupiah devaluation to be reflected in the
coming earnings report. Still waiting on the report, until
then also suspicious.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:08 - ID#431200)
Rukeyser takes 'Wall $treet Week' to London to explore unification
Last updated: Thursday 9 July 1998 WORLD BUSINESS
Rukeyser takes 'Wall $treet Week' to London to explore unification
NEW YORK ( AP ) - Many of us got our first lesson in money management from Donald Ducks rich Uncle Scrooge. With his comic example, he taught us we should keep our trillions in cash, heaped floor to ceiling in an enormous bunker called a Money Bin.
Well, Louis Rukeyser charts a more realistic route to financial security. Among his rules of investing are: Be well-informed, be patient, be optimistic, and, every Friday, watch "Wall $treet Week with Louis Rukeyser." ( Its on PBS; check local listings for time. )
In its 28th season, "Wall $treet Week" is TVs oldest financial program, and, drawing an average audience of more than 4 million households, Rukeyser says proudly, it eclipses all other money shows combined.
But theres something different about the $how thi$ week. Instead of taking place from that sprawling den in Owings Mills, Md., "Wall $treet Week" will air live from London in a special edition.
How will Europes drive for economic unity challenge American economic leadership? Thats the pressing issue Rukeyser will pose to leading European experts, exploring how American investments will be affected as 15 European nations - with a larger combined population and gross domestic product than that of the United States - begin to share a common monetary destiny.
"The big question were going to be investigating is whether Europe is going to come together as a protectionist trade bloc, or as a contributor to worldwide economic growth," says Rukeyser, adding, "I think as Americans we should work for the latter and prepare for the former."
Will unification work? "The question is, whether countries that are not only diverse culturally, but also very diverse economically, are really going to be able to have a common economic policy when times turn a little sour." As the euro replaces the French franc, the German mark, and so on, in 11 countries beginning next January, the nations of the so-called European Union "are moving toward an economic union without a true political union," Rukeyser notes. "We didnt find that too successful, you recall, with the Articles of Confederation in the early days of the U.S." Not that most of us would recall.
"One of the most enduring characteristics of the American mind is our lack of memory," Rukeyser observes. "The American memory span, I once calculated, is 19.6 seconds."
Perhaps thats one reason Rukeyser, as both interviewer and analyst, has found lasting acceptance with "Wall $treet Week." His viewers seem to realize that, as much as it may go against the grain, a little historical perspective can be useful.
For instance, on a recent show, the host gently corrected a guest who spoke of the current record low in such-and-such a market. A few decades ago, Rukeyser reminded him, it was even lower.
"I was delighted to have a chance to get that in," says Rukeyser, "because there again was the American memory problem: Right now, many of us think weve never had a bigger boom, which is nonsense. We think weve never before had lower inflation. Everybody thinks the world was invented when they first discovered it."
On "Wall $treet Week," Rukeyser creates a clubby atmosphere with the big-time analysts and financiers to whom he plays host. But in this salon, the viewer is treated as an equal.
"I have always taken the view that I represent the customer," says Rukeyser, a journalist whose clientele is his audience.
Before launching "Wall $treet Week," he worked at ABC News as Paris correspondent, London bureau chief and national economic commentator.Today, hes an investor ( "I practice what I preach" ) and also publishes two newsletters that let subscribers share the wealth.
But despite an erudite air, Rukeyser seems as bullish on puns ( dont ask! ) as on Wall Street. Often during a typical broadcast, his mouth curls into a near-smirk that signals: Hey, its only money.
His two watchwords for "Wall $treet Week": credibility and entertainment.
"We have millions of viewers who literally have never owned a share of stock, but who watch us because they find it a painless way to get a handle on the economy, and because they think that, someday ... ."
Of course, Rukeyser argues that someday might as well be right away.
"Theres always going to be a reason NOT to invest," he points out. "But the important thing is to get going. What history tells us is, those who go in for the long haul are gonna do just fine." And its a much better strategy than someones uncles money bin.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:09 - ID#287186)
Trinovant and Promey - further tips
Often I will compose in MS Word and let word wrap take care of itself. If I use manual line breaks they produce long lines followed by little pieces when I paste in the composition window and post unless I use short lines.
Any time I copy from an e-mail or a post on K1 I get manual breaks at the end of each line - which do not fall in the right places when I past elsewhere. I usually then paste into Word and strip out all the returns which then destroys any formatting for poems,etc.
There has GOT to be a better way!
Anybody have better ideas?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:16 - ID#28098)
One must process a lot of chaff to garner a grain...but here goes
OFFICIAL JOURNAL NO. C 22 , 26/01/1996 P. 2


5. This changeover scenario is based on 1 January 1999 as the starting date for the third stage. The steps to be taken during the different stages of the changeover process are presented below and summarized in the annexed tables which set out the timing and the various dates and deadlines for the participating Member States.

9. A Council Regulation entering into force on 1 January 1999 will provide the legal framework for the use of the euro. From that date, the euro will be 'a currency in its own right' and the official ecu basket will cease to exist. This Regulation will have the effect that the national currencies and the euro will become different expressions of what is economically the same currency. As long as different national monetary units still exist, the Council Regulation will establish a legally enforceable equivalence between the euro and the national currency units ( 'legally enforceable equivalence' means that each monetary amount is assigned, in a legally enforceable way, an unchangeable countervalue in terms of the euro unit
at the official conversion rate and vice versa ) . For the period before the deadline set for the completion of the changeover, the Regulation will ensure that private economic agents will be free to use the euro; at the same time they should not be obliged to do so. As far as possible, they should be allowed to develop their own mechanisms of adjustment to the changeover; however, the implementation of these principles should take into account market practices in term of standardization. The Regulation will also provide that national banknotes will continue to remain legal tender within the boundaries of the respective national territories until the completion of the changeover to the single currency. The technical preparatory work for this Regulation shall be completed at the latest by the end of 1996.

10. The substitution of the euro for national currencies should not of itself alter the continuity of contracts; amounts expressed in national currency will be converted into euro at the rate of conversion laid down by the Council. In the case of fixed interest rate securities and loans, this substitution will not of itself alter the nominal interest rate payable by the debtor unless otherwise provided in the contract. In these case of contracts denominated by reference to the official ecu basket of the European Community, in accordance with the Treaty, substitution by the euro will be at the 1:1 rate, subject to the particular terms of individual contracts.

11. New tradable public debt will be issued in euro by the participating Member States as from 1 January 1999. By 1 July 2002 at the latest, public debt denominated in the former national currencies will be
redeemable only in the single currency.

COMMENT: Shall continue with this in a bit. Thought it most helpful if you read what "they" say, yes?

"They" do not necessarily speak with fork-tongue...but, by golly they surely have mouths filled with marbles! {:- ) )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:24 - ID#37292)
For Disney...
Thanks for the emu / ostrich info and offer.. Happens that a close friend and neighbor works for Quill Industries ( QUIL on NASDAQ if anyone wants to see a classic pump and dump chart ) as meat marketing guy. But my best emu story ( when they really were selling for 35k/pair and more ) is while visiting the ranch out here on the west central Texas Divide, ol' Jack was poking at one to get him out ot the way to check for eggs and the bird charged him, ol' Jack fell backwards on the ground and there he was jabbing at the bird that was all wings, legs, and neck on him with a long aluminum pole. So the other guy standing with me leaning on the fence and observing this says, T__________, if ol' Jack was really in trouble and you were standing here with a shotgun, who would you shoot, Jack or the bird?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:36 - ID#335190)
Russian General Rokhlin murdered @ Russian Is Our Home party Yeltsin, weak (sick) Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Presidential aide says Yeltsin too weak to run again

MOSCOW ( AP ) -- A senior aide to Boris Yeltsin suggested today that the Russian president has trouble maintaining a full-time work schedule due to poor health and should not even think about running for a third term.

However, the president spends much more time than before at his country residence outside Moscow. During the week, he rarely spends five full days working at the Kremlin.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:45 - ID#290287)
You are preparing for calamity
but are concerned about
gold confiscation.
In that case prioritize bags of
junk silver coin
over gold bullion coin.
Non-numismatic dimes and quarters
should be the easiest to use
and the least likely form
of precious metal to be
confiscated in the future.

Promey, this looks single spaced
in Kitco submission window,
we'll see what happens.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:46 - ID#288186)
Gold has been sinking slowly lower throughout the morning. Aug comex
Gold is currently 291.80 It sure would be nice to see a bounce at
about the 291 level. Late day reversal? It would be nice! Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:53 - ID#433143)
Very cool Assault rifle message board.

Gandalf the White
(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:56 - ID#433301)
Repost of message from FOA from Board
This message is reposted with the permission of MK !
Dated Thursday 7/9/98 from "Friends of Another".
I quote:
Michael, I received your letters and have a reply from myself, but must wait for Another's also. Also, here is a later news release from Bloomberg ( only part of it ) :
EMU Top Stories
Wed, 8 Jul 1998, 9:33 EDT
Frankfurt, July 8 ( Bloomberg ) -- The European Central Bank said 15 percent of the initial $43 billion in foreign exchange reserves transferred to it from member states will be gold, and any sales of their remaining gold holdings, collectively the world's largest, will require ECB approval. The ECB will adopt a guideline before the end of this year that will "subject all operations in foreign reserve assets remaining with the national central banks, including gold, to approval by the European Central Bank," ECB President Wim Duisenberg said at a press conference. While his comments don't shut the door on gold sales by ECB membercountries, they indicate the bank will coordinate sales.
Note: Notice how the last sentence slants the story toward SALES. That's not what the ECB said. They said that "the ECB will subject all operations". The district central banks will sell gold alright, but the market only expects it to be sold outright for dollars. They will stand on their heads when the ECB issues Euros to buy District CB gold, not allowing it to enter the open market!
I will get everything to you ASAP.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:56 - ID#340459)
God Help us All

(Thu Jul 09 1998 12:56 - ID#433143)
Btw EMU burgers taste like SH*#T!!! hehe
No really more like cardboard.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:00 - ID#350179)
A gulp to ya, Namast

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:10 - ID#26467)
Commodity potpourri
FWIW DX breakout, JY going lower until 15,16,minor bear market rally
to be lower after until 2nd week of August.Crude oil basing.
Soybean for a sharp decline third week of July.Coffee getting friendly
with a sharp rally due in August.Wheat is basing.
Gold lower until next week minor rebound ,with platinum the best
return. With a final low until the end of the month.
Rangy will have its rally in August ,Nem should be excellent as well
for its unhedged position.Until then ...Have a great trading day.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:11 - ID#35571)
Market risk analysis

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:13 - ID#373284)
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...MM, NAMASTE' A most generous glass
of Reserva has been held up high...a secret Cuervo Central wish sent into the skies over the Island that is Long is now sent your way...GULP to ya...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:15 - ID#227238)
Platinum fans: Today's action in PL is looking a bit ugly. Unless it closes above 385, todays chart will indicate a top for this move. Currently trading at 380.50, off 1.60.

feet of clay
(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:24 - ID#338186)
Is There A Counselor In The House?
Despite the gracious answers I received earlier in the week from a few of you ( General, Jtaher, Texasgoldpost, Allen, Tolerant1, JTF ) , I still don't know if I should invest in gold ( or silver or platimum ) at all right now. At first it seemed so easy ( a no-brainer ) . My thinking went like this: ...obviously, gold is going to go crazy since people will gradually learn about y2k and bail out of the stock market looking for something more stable to invest in and bingo that's when the price soars and that's when I sell it and make a big profit ... Now at this point, it seems more complicated than that. Ie:  what if gold goes down after I buy it?  what if we have DEflation rather than INflation?  what if...  what if... You see, my plan is to take out a home equity loan for $45,000, buy approx. $30,000 worth of gold ( these Canadaian Mounties appeal to me since there's some price insurance involved ) , put the remaining $15,000 in a money market account, make payments on the loan from that until around June of next year, at which time I yank out the remainder in cash and continue making payments from then on using money orders or certified checks, all the while hoping that gold goes up in value, selling only what I need to to pay off the loan and then I keep the remaining gold and I own it scott free. Of course, that all blows up in my face if the price of gold goes down, rather than up. Can anyone relate to this? Does this sound like total insanity? or is it a plausible plan? The Bible says that in a multitude of counselors there is wisdom.

p.s.  How do I dollar cost average if I'm buying Mounties or the like? It seems that their price doesn't fluctuate with the spot price of Gold. Also, can anyone advise as to who would be the best person/company to deal with if I want to buy using the dollar cost averaging method?

Thanks a bunch

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:31 - ID#335190)
Russia - Religion (600 Orthodox)- General Rokhlin - Gorbachev - Yeltsin - USofA - Balkan @ Evil Hmmm

J. Adams

July 11th, 1997

Why would Moscow intentionally bring about the seeming collapse of Soviet Communism? Because of the "Russian Idea".

The "New Thinking" introduced by Soviet Premiere Mikhail Gorbachev in the 1980's was guided by the Russian Idea. By introducing deceptive policies of democratization and Westernization in the Soviet Union, the path was opened for engineering the end of Communism and the collapse of the seeming Russian military threat to the West. In doing this, the way has been opened for replacing Communism with Orthodoxy.

The Following Editorial Appeared In A Local Newspaper As:
***Involvement With Serbia Will Trigger World War Three***
By J. Adams ....February, 1994

provocative example that the Russian Right is behind the transformation taking place in Russia is the following articles:

One of the most suspicious features of the move to restore the Russian Orthodox Church in recent years is the renovation and rebuilding of churches. Even though the Russian government is supposedly broke ( recently it was reported that electricity had been shut-off to the command & control center of Russia's strategic nuclear weapons because the military has failed to pay its utility bills ) , it has been able to come up with money for a massive campaign to restore and rebuild Russian Orthodox Churches. In the Moscow area alone the number of churches has surged from 130 to 600. Clearly this indicates that the transformation to an Orthodox state is well underway.

By J. Adams...October 29th, 1996
"Mad world! Mad kings! Mad composition!"

How people are falling for The Lie is beyond me. I mean, first Gorbachev ascends to power in the atheistic, totalitarian, militaristic, anti-Western Soviet regime faster than anyone in history, and now he is being upheld as the Christ-like, pro-Western democrat who has brought forth world peace. Thus, a perfect contradiction has developed. And what is a "contra"-"diction"?

Something that is the opposite of what it appears to say and mean- a perfect lie, a perfect liar, the master of deceit- the devil

Russian Press Digest
July 10, 1997
"Movement In Support For The Army Or A New Coup?"
By Lyubov Poleshanina

New movement being formed by rebellious General Lev Rokhlin is joined by retired army and KGB top brass opposed to military reform and threatening with "insurgence of dissatisfied officers."

Boris Yeltsin could have ignored this development if it were not for the fact that Rokhlin is going to call an All-Army Officers' Meeting to discuss whether Commander-in-Chief Yeltsin suits this post. Depending on Yeltsin's response, various developments may follow. The worst scenario is that armored divisions may enter Moscow to "picket the Government building." The mechanism of calling an Officers'

Meeting was developed in detail by Igor Rodionov before his dismissal from the post of Defense Minister. In this situation Rokhlin may use Rodionov's ideas in order to launch an offensive on the Kremlin, jointly with the communist and nationalist opposition in fall.

................Information last updated on: 09/29/97

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:32 - ID#373284)
feet of clay, namaste' aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, BORROW, to make any purchase in an invesment, I do not care what it is and I am very high on gold silver and platinum...... NEVER, NEVER, NEVER...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:34 - ID#365216)
Does anyone know of the subject newsletter, the Financial Privacy
( may not be exact title ) ? If it is on the level, this info would
be good to know in case the feds ever do come knocking on our doors
asking us to fork over the yellow ( if they do, I plan on pissing on
them he he! ) I still think we need to all work on repealing the
Brady Bill, bringing power back to the states, and most of all

That is all.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:35 - ID#57232)
Your 12:16 on the EURO
SDRer: Something does not ring true. If the EURO currency basket is to end on Jan 1, 1999 -- to be placed by the official EURO, how are fluctuations in individual currency supply to be handled? There is no way that the EURO will be the only currency on 1/1/99 -- it will be low volume for years, representing only a fraction of the total trade in the currencies of member countries. The volume of the EURO will be slowly increased, as the non-EURO currency volume drops. The changeover will not be quick.

If I understand correctly, exchange rates are already fixed, or will be very soon ( 1/1/99? ) . If so, some other currency must be traded such as the US dollar or gold so that parity can be maintained. Gold would be the logical choice -- but not necessariliy to a 'fiat' banker type. If exchange parity is to be maintained with transfer of US dollars back and forth, that will maintain the demand for US dollars as the reserve currency. Issueance of EUROs as the exchange reserve currency seems like a bad idea to me -- could complicate parity evaluations considerably if the EURO began to inflate as well -- the Germans would become quite upset to see their currency effectively watered down.

Of course, using the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is what we need to slowly move away from, if we ever expect to resolve our debt problems. Otherwise the US dollar eventually follows the historical path of the British pound sterling -- not a pleasant thought.

My assessment of the EURO is that it is swamped in legaleze -- either intentionally so that multiple options are available, so simply because it was form by a committee. Your posts eloquently show this. Either way, I am not optimistic about the likelihood of the EURO replacing the US dollar anytime soon.

My guess is that the fog will not clear until a major gold-backed currency is launched -- probably from SEAsia. Hong Kong perhaps? The BIS connection? Why would the BIS set up an office in Hong Kong if it thought the answer to the world's currency problems was the EURO?

I just had a wild thought. If gold was to be a major reserve currency for the EURO, European central bank sale of gold from one bank to another would be very effective at keeping the gold bulls at bay. All they have to do is sell gold from one CB to another, and how they report the sales will determine the bearish or bullish effect on the gold market. Even better if they officially claim gold is a minor reserve currency, even if it is not. If this scenario is accurate, gold will not go up until the CB's want it to, barring war or financial crisis. David Copperfield could not do it any better than this.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:37 - ID#298380)
Please tell us Kitcoites that really enjoy your straightforward and
no nonsense posts that you are only joking when you keep referring
to gulping tequilla. I don't even know you,sir but i am sincerely
concerned about the condition of your liver.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:41 - ID#365216)
to feet of clay
I would concur with tolerant1 that you shouldn't take out a loan
to buy your metals; you want to own them free and clear and not have
to surrender them if you can't meet your loan schedule for some reason.

Regarding dollar cost averaging, any reputable firm should be able
to work out an individual plan for you whereby you can purchase
a certain dollar amount or coin amount every month or so. If you
can't afford an outright large purchase right now, I think dollar
cost averaging is the way to go. Some recommended firms are:

Blanchard and Company
Mike Fulgienz ( Spelling? )
Wilmington Trust

I can get you more specifics if you are interested. Good luck.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:42 - ID#57232)
How about silver?
Cyclist: Any comments?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:43 - ID#433143)
Mike Fuljenz

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:45 - ID#373284)
feet of clay, Namaste...try this, call each of these people and chat with them about
what they think...Bart Kitner-800-363-7053...Rob Noel-800-951-0592 or
Russ Savage-800-593-2585 - each of them have different items for sale and each of them, obviously have differing view points, one thing they do share, honesty, integrity and they do their utmost to steer their clients in the right directions..........PICK UP THE PHONE...mention the idea pertaining to your loan concept and I think you will find it is met with a resounding NO! DONT DO IT THAT WAY!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:47 - ID#317193)
I like your perspective...historical! Looks like HGMCY is yours for $4.25.

How can the sale or transfer of gold or other currencies to the ECB reduce the debt of the member states? Do they get Euro's that can be used to apply to the debt? I'm not real smart about this stuff but curious nonetheless.

Maybe SDRer has the answer.


(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:49 - ID#365216)
feet of clay and all bullion buyers: PRINT OUT LATEST DEALER SURVEY FROM "SAFE MONEY REPORT"
Here it is guys:


Benham Certified Metals, 1665 Charleston Road, Mountain
View, CA 94043; ( 800 ) 447-4653, or in Alaska and Hawaii,
( 415 ) 965-4275. Benham's prices in this survey can best be
described as middle of the road. The firm requires that funds be
on hand before executing an order. Plus, there's a minimum of
$2,000 on gold or platinum purchases and $1,000 on silver
transactions. While these requirements can be cumbersome, we
don't think they're unreasonable. The sales staff was pleasant and

Bill Youngerman, Inc., 95 South Federal Highway, Boca
Raton, FL 33432; ( 800 ) 327-5010, or in Florida, ( 561 )
368-7707. Although prices were only average, I can rave about
the firm's service. It is also possible you will find Mr.
Youngerman handling sales calls himself -- a clear sign that
service is important to this firm. Bill Youngerman, a fixture in
Florida since 1967, has earned a good reputation in the industry.
I know and respect him.

Blanchard & Co., 110 Veterans Blvd., Suite 200, Metairie, LA
70005; ( 800 ) 880-4653. A first time entry into our survey, we
found this firm to be priced in the top third of our dealers in both
of the gold coins; and our callers found the staff efficient and

California Numismatic Investment, 525 W. Manchester
Blvd., Inglewood, CA 90301; ( 800 ) 225-7531. This firm was
one of the most competitively priced in our survey, taking into
account the five products we priced. CNI also has a guaranteed
price policy: If you can find a competitor selling the same
product for a lower price, the company promises to match it.

Camino Coin, 875 Mahler Road, Suite 150, Burlingame, CA
94010; ( 800 ) 348-8001, or in California, ( 800 ) 348-3001. A
long-time favorite of ours. Burt Blummert, the firm's founder, is
one of the good guys in the industry. Our survey team found the
staff helpful, low key, plus willing to answer any and all
questions. Camino was #1 in pricing Canadian maple leafs and
average for the rest of the coins. If you do business with Camino,
I suggest you try to negotiate a little. My experience is that they'll
work with you to get your business.

Dallas Gold & Silver, 2817 Forest Lane, Dallas, TX 75234;
( 800 ) 527-5307, or in Texas, ( 214 ) 484-3362. This dealer will
allow you to lock in your purchase price over the phone, but
insists you mail your check that same day. Although it charged
the most for the 40% bags, prices were middle of the road or
lower in the other areas.

Dillon Gage, Inc., 15301 Dallas Pkwy, Suite 200, Dallas, TX
75248; ( 800 ) 537-2583. The company is financially solid and
the sales staff is easy to work with. They will lock in the price of
your bullion purchases, providing payment is mailed/postmarked
within 24 hours. Even though their prices were middle of the
pack in this survey, I know from personal experience that you
can usually hammer out a better deal with a little effort.

Eastern Numismatics, 642 Franklin Ave., Garden City, New
York 11530; ( 800 ) 227-5811. Don't bother. NOT
RECOMMENDED. This firm was downright insulting to our
callers. And I don't believe you should be tempted by its national
advertising campaigns. Sure, the specials look good ... but the
data indicates to us that all they're trying to do is rope you in.

Engles Coin Shop, 3520 Founders Lane, Indianapolis, IN
46268; ( 317 ) 875-0614. NOT RECOMMENDED. In our
last survey, we suggested subscribers avoid this small firm
because of the rude sales staff. Once again, we found them to be

F.J. Vollmer & Co., Inc., #3 Towanda Access Road,
Bloomington, IL 61701; ( 800 ) 447-8368. A fixture in the rare
coin industry for decades, the company has always sold bullion.
This time, Vollmer had the third best price for the 90% and 40%
bags. Plus, it ranked among the top five in gold bullion and US
silver eagles. We continue to find the staff professional and

Fiscal and Monetary Services, 350 Bedford Street, P.O.
Box 104, Bridgewater, MA 02324; ( 800 ) 258-7322. Very
professional and to the point. But while the staff is easy to deal
with, their prices leave a lot to be desired. It was one of the least
competitive firms in this SGR survey.

Gaithersburg Coin Exchange, 16 East Diamond Avenue,
Gaithersburg, MD 20877; ( 800 ) 638-4104. This firm wants to
do business. Our callers reported that the staff was very helpful,
knowledgeable and friendly. Their refreshing "can do" attitude is
also reflected in Gaithersburg's prices. The firm has finished
either near the top or in the middle of every survey where it has
been included. You can lock in prices if payment is sent the same
day. Personal checks are held for 15 days; you can get faster
shipping using cashier's checks and money orders.

Goldline International ( formerly Deak International/Gold &
Silver Emporium ) , 100 Wilshire Blvd., Third Floor, Santa
Monica, CA 90401; ( 800 ) 289-3325. No great bargains here.
Although the firm has friendly, fast and helpful service, our callers
noticed ( on separate occasions ) that the staff was trying to steer
them into numismatic investments instead of bullion. Don't let any
dealer do that to you. Stick with your own agenda.

Guardian International, 2499 North Harrison Street,
Arlington, VA 22207; ( 800 ) 642-2208 or ( 703 ) 237-1133.
Guardian's prices were competitive. Our callers noted that the
staff was quick, friendly and helpful.

International Collectors Association, 166 Turner Dr.,
Durango, CO 81301; ( 800 ) 525-9556, or in Colorado, ( 303 )
758-8536. Our callers reported having difficulty getting quotes
from this firm, as well as being put on hold or asked to call back.
In the past, this firm has told SGR that it sells bullion only by
referral or to existing clients. Before buying from this company,
keep in mind that its business centers around semi-numismatic
coins. Check all prices carefully.

Jefferson Financial, 2400 Jefferson Highway, Suite 600,
Jefferson, LA 70121; ( 800 ) 877-8847. Primarily a numismatic
company, the firm is closely tied to owner Jim Blanchard's
newsletter and seminars. It sells bullion as a service, not as a
primary profit center. That's important to remember if their
salespeople suggest a rare coin instead. Again, always make sure
you check prices first -- good advice whenever you deal with
any rare coin firm.

MTB, 90 Broad Street, New York, NY 10004-2290; ( 800 )
221-5240 or ( 212 ) 858-3318. No bargains here either; and our
callers complained about the firm's phone manners. This is a very
big firm, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's one to do business

Merrill Lynch, 249 Royal Palm Way, Palm Beach, FL 33405;
( 800 ) 937-0665. Most full-service brokerage firms sell bullion
as a service to clients. However, they usually tend to be on the
high side. So it is with Merrill. And the firm doesn't handle silver

Midwest Coin Exchange, P.O. Box 503, Mishawaka, IN
46546; ( 800 ) 383-4623. This must be a small operation; we
could barely get through to them. The company obviously uses
its answering machine to screen calls. Stay away.

Mike Fuljenz Universal Coin, 350 Dowlen Rd., Suite 101,
Beaumont, TX 77706; ( 800 ) 459-2646. Mike Fuljenz's firm is a
competitor. I know from experience that the firm's policy is to
meet or beat the lowest legitimate price offered by its
competition. And his staff is knowledgeable.

Monex International Ltd., 4910 Birch Street, Newport
Beach, CA 92660; ( 800 ) 949-4653 or ( 800 ) 854-3361. Our
callers found the sales staff pleasant and willing to answer
questions. Two drawbacks, though: Monex has a 500-coin
minimum purchase on silver eagles. And the firm uses brokers
whose commissions push the prices up a bit. You can lock in
prices, but Monex insists on arranging a Federal Express pickup
of your check, at its expense, for first-time customers. Monex is
one of the few firms in the industry that deposits your money in a
segregated account.

National Gold Exchange, 14309 N. Dale Mabry Hwy.,
Tampa, FL 33618; ( 813 ) 969-4111. National is one of this
country's premier rare coin wholesalers, with some of the least
expensive semi-numismatic and rare gold coins in the industry.
But its bullion prices are just average. Our callers found the sales
staff friendly and knowledgeable.

Numismatics International, 255 Executive Drive, Suite 210,
Plainview, NY 11803; ( 800 ) 892-1715. NOT
RECOMMENDED. We had a great deal of difficulty getting
quotes from this firm. Based on the poor treatment and
run-around we experienced, I can't, in good conscience,
recommend this firm.

Nunemaker's, 105 Hope Blvd., Bremen, IN 46506; ( 219 )
546-2280. Our SGR callers commented repeatedly on the great
treatment they received. Unfortunately, prices weren't very

Panda America Corp., 3460 Torrance Blvd., Suite 100,
Torrance, CA 90503; ( 800 ) 472-6327. NOT
RECOMMENDED. Another company we had trouble getting
quotes from ... and the sales reps were rude to us. Steer clear
for now.

Pinnacle Rarities, 5177 Richmond Avenue, Suite 203,
Houston, TX 77056; ( 800 ) 724-7642. NOT
RECOMMENDED. Primarily a rare coin dealer, we found the
sales representatives unfriendly.

Rare Coins of New Hampshire, 28 Jones Road, #1, Milford,
NH 03055; ( 800 ) 225-7264. This is another rare coin dealer
that sells bullion as a sideline. Still, our callers raved about how
nice the staff is. Another plus: The firm's pricing is pretty

Sam Sloat, Inc., 606 Post Road East, P.O. Box 192,
Westport, CT 06881; ( 800 ) 243-5670 or ( 203 ) 226-4279. The
company priced out in the mid-range, except for silver bags
where it was one of the lowest priced dealers. The helpful sales
staff strives to be competitive, so they'll usually listen to an offer.

SilverTowne, P.O. Box 424, Winchester, IN 47394; ( 800 )
788-7481. This used to be one of the giants in the precious
metals business. The salespeople are helpful, patient and very
pleasant. But its prices leave a lot to be desired, especially in the
US silver eagles where the firm came in dead last.

Tangible Investments of America, 1550 South Pacific Coast
Hwy., Suite 103, Laguna Beach, CA 92650; ( 800 ) 890-1394.
Callers found the staff eager to help, friendly and very courteous.
Bullion prices were average.

Western Federal, 6263 N. Scottsdale Road, Suite 170,
Scottsdale, AZ 85250; ( 800 ) 238-2121, or in Arizona, ( 602 )
998-1000. In the bullion business since 1979, the firm now
specializes in selling securities and commodities futures. Although
you can find better prices, its service is good.

Wilmington Trust Co., P.O. Box 8980, Wilmington, DE
19899; ( 800 ) 223-1080. Quotes were better than previous
surveys ( first in golden eagle; 3rd best silver eagle ) . If you're
planning to place your metal in storage, this firm could save you a
step or two. Of course, you can also buy from other sources and
still store at Wilmington Trust.


The tables in this issue are averages of our 3-day price survey of
US silver and gold dealers. The dates of our survey were
January 13, 14, and 15, 1997. The spot prices for gold on those
days averaged $356.30. For silver, the average was $4.67.

We want you to know the true, complete cost of buying silver
and gold. So in the following tables, we included commissions
and shipping charges in our final calculation of the total price.

When you do your own comparison shopping, you should also
consider shipping costs. When shipping is factored in, a dealer
with a higher per unit charge may actually get the metal to your
door for a lower total price than a dealer with a lower price for
the metal itself.

As usual, our calls were anonymous and were made with every
effort to appear as legitimate, potential customers. The data in
this report, plus our calculations, are correct to the best of our
knowledge. Errors, however, are possible; so we are unable to
provide any absolute guarantee of accuracy. It's also possible
that a dealer may spot our survey callers and "low ball" us. We
try to sort out atypical prices, but can't always be 100% sure.

That means a dealer might get a better ranking than he really
deserves -- the aim being to get a good rating and then sell to
you at his higher normal prices. That is one reason we
recommend you ALWAYS call at least two -- and preferably
three -- dealers before buying.

Send Your Comments

Weiss Ratings Home Page

Site Designed and Hosted by Manhattan Analytics Inc.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:53 - ID#57232)
Advice on precious metals investing
feet: Excellent advice from fellow Kitcoites. Set aside a budget for how much cash you can put into physical precious metals -- assuming that you will not have access to it for years. In this way you will know what you can afford without going into debt. The problem with going into debt is that it puts you into the wrong mindset -- that somehow you know that the investment that you bought into is going up right away. If it goes the wrong way, and your reserves are wiped out, you are wiped out too!

Physical precious metals are not a short term investment, as there is considerable overhead. You must hold onto it for years if you expect to get a significant gain. Short term buying and selling ( churning ) only lines the pockets of the broker, who must make a profit of some kind.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:55 - ID#426220)

BBC ANNOUNCEMENT: South Asia Pakistan seeks threatened IMF funds

Pakistani Finance Minister, Sartaj Aziz, warned that Pakistan would not be able to afford debt repayments if lending agencies did not release promised IMF loans.

The Finance Minister said that all the money that Pakistan receives in foreign assistance each year goes straight into servicing the country's foreign debt, and he argued that having met all the conditions laid down by the IMF, Pakistan should now receive scheduled IMF funds.

"At the end of this month, Pakistan is due to pay $800 million towards its $30 billion debt. Financial experts say that without international aid, the payment would wipe out Pakistan's foreign exchange reserves, leaving it with no money to pay for imports."

only 2.7% of the debt principle - WHICH IS ONLY INTEREST DUE

This is EXACTLY LIKE John Kutyn predicted. They ( i.e. ALL ASIA ) are
taking on more debt to pay the interest on the old debt - which makes
the TOTAL LOAN burden that much heavier... until the last straw is placed, breaking the camel's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This scenario will become an echo dj vu to be played throughout
ALL ASIA until the harsh medicine prescribed by John Kutyn is finally accepted and swallowed.

Kutyn describes in minute detail - but in layman's language - the ills
of the Far-East where and how it will inevitably end and what
each person may do to mitigate the dire global ramifications of the
looming economic, financial & monetary debacles - which will
eventually invade and pillage Eastern shores. Go to following
URL - it's necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in word
"golden" before pasting it to Internet locator:

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:56 - ID#373284)
CharlieS_A, Namaste', I appreciate the concern, and no I do not drink huge gulps
each and every time. Actually I would love to be at my autopsy, huh, well, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...I would have to be now wouldn't I...ah...I would like to be in an out of body way, cognizant as the examiner tries to find my liver...

Actually though...every once in a while I do take a gulp...birthdays, the babies, when I read of someone whose special someone is under the weather and such like that...but normally it is a gesture of good will. Let's say that on many occasions they are baby sips, enough to wet the less...

But in HONOR of this particular thought...shot glass is at attention... drum roll...GULP to ya!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 13:58 - ID#317193) do you make gold come back ...
What's up with the rebounds on gold? Could it be currency crisis? Interesting. Yes?

I'll compare livers with you some day....


(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:03 - ID#174239)
Old Gold: Gold price trends
Here is the origional message posted by RJ yesterday:

"Date: Wed Jul 08 1998 18:04
RJ ( ..... CB Sales ..... ) ID#411259:

NJ wrote: "Bloomberg report says any sale of remaining gold holdings by member CBs can only be with the prior approval by ECB."

This is true, beginning Jan 1, 1999.

This would seem to put the pressure on to sell by year end

If sales there are to be, yes?


I interpret this as a hint that individual European CBs will dump some gold before the year ends. Even if they get Euros for it, I would expect gold prices to decrease verses the US$. I suspect Platinum would also decline, but silver to do it's own thing. Perhaps it's way too soon to make such predictions.

John Disney__A
(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:07 - ID#24135)
People dont like numbers
For Old gold .. Rand weakened just before market
closed .. It had been as low as 6.08 at one stage.
However believe this run up was simply people switching
out of rands into anything dollar based .. when rand
steadied .. they came back out. The idea that the
profits of the mines will rise in dollar terms as
a result of the fall to 6 plus is simply too abstract
for the usual investor's mind ( US or south african ) .
Many guys will believe a tip from a total stranger
quicker than he will believe numbers .. even if he
makes the numbers himself.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:09 - ID#26467)
FWIW Silver as of last month trying to stage a rally.resistance
5.60 5.80.Support 5.00
The projected high will fall in the third week of September,
with another high around Christmas time.

feet of clay
(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:14 - ID#338186)
Tolerant1, General, JTF
I thank God ( the Lord Jesus Christ ) for you guys. I definately got the message. I haven't had a peace about doing the loan thing, and now you guys confirmed it. I'm not going to take out a loan. Also, thanks for the list of trusted companys etc.


(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:16 - ID#350179)
DOW Volume spike
What was that?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:17 - ID#28593)
JTF--You are absolutely right--it is a Work-in-Progress, as Duisenberg's press conference reveals!

RE: your question--
"- to be placed by the official EURO, how are fluctuations in individual currency supply to be handled?"

They intend to use [at the outset] LEGALLY ENORCEABLE EQUIVALENCE
( 'legally enforceable equivalence' means that each monetary amount is assigned, in a legally enforceable way, an unchangeable countervalue in terms of the euro unit at the official conversion rate and vice versa ) .

To 'nudge' recalcitrant citizens into conversion, most banks will-for a time-make the conversion free on charge and additionally,

"provide that national banknotes will continue to remain legal tender within the boundaries of the respective national territories until the completion of the changeover to the single currency"

which appears to mean that if one DOESN'T convert, one is going to be constantly changing national notes into Euros each and every time one crosses a border. Not so subtle inducement to switch!

It is rather like a very LARGE ball of yarn with which several succeeding generations of kittens have been playing  Got gold? {:- ) )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:24 - ID#269207)
@ General, WHEN they come,
you will find, that though they will visit us all, they will do so, ONE at a time... : )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:26 - ID#218388)
Greenstone Resources - News?
Greenstone Resources taking a hammering today. Any news?
... ( still Waiting For Golddough )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:26 - ID#298380)
I am relieved. The Hindu salutation to you.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:30 - ID#354133)
General, Feet of Clay
Feet first: Why not accept delivery of a contract for 100 ounces? E-mail me - I would like to specifically NOT recommend one of the dealers on the list and tell you why: ( Why do you think they have the title of "BROKEr"? )

General: Are you aware of the latest FEDERALLY mandated gun tax that goes into effect 1 November 1998? Each purchase will require you to pay $10-20 and will most likely add another three day wait. In essence, this will become a FEDERALLY mandated tax on a Constitutionally guaranteed U.S. right ( 2nd Amendment. ) What, who approved that? You did by voting in your Congressman. What a novel idea - if you want to exercise your rights as a U.S. citizen, you should have to pay for them! It's not too late to send your Congressmen/Representatives a letter.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:32 - ID#373284)
TYoung, Namaste' its simple really, I threaten the Gnomes of Switzerland by
telling them that I won't let them stay with their relatives here at Cuervo Central...the Gnomes of Cuervo Central...when they visit the Island that is Long...almost to the percentage point you can see the calculation of the cost to reside at the hotel, food, taxis, etc...and the price of gold rises to that exact amount...oh yeah...they also save money cause we don't take currency so they pay in exchange commissions or taxes...

Of course...since they have knubby little paws they miscalculate once in a while so it takes hours, maybe days for the correct calculation...also one in their number is not that bright...but its his calculator...Some thing in life never change...there is always one relative screwing things up...When I want the price of gold to make me profits I just tell them that the cost of hotels and the like has gone up by 20%soonsoon...they may not be that brightbut they aint entirely stupid either

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:32 - ID#269207)
@The American Bastille
Written after the Civil War, by ....... John Marshall, as an example of what one might typically expect.....

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:33 - ID#286284)
Veneroso conference call

This is old ( December '97 ) but worth a read if you haven't seen it already. It is drawn from a conference call w/ Frank Veneroso. Full piece can be found at


BC: So Frank, this is Brad Cooke again. At the outset here today you said that you estimated about half of the difference between gold demand and gold supply is filled by either central bank sales or central bank lending. You also, in your research this year, talked about the slingshot effect on the downside when the shorts get hold of gold and of course on the upside when they cover. You havent talked about short covering here today. Do you want to say something about that?

FV: Yes. I wrote a piece after we broke in July ( I guess it was around August ) . Basically I thought that the big break that occurred then was due to fund short selling and Im sure fund short selling was a big contributor to it. The market was supported by physical demand and I believe by some Asian central bank buying. The market then built a base and rallied up to 330. At that particular point in time we had a giant short position in the market. At any other time in history, once you broke above 330 you wouldve exploded. We broke above 330, we had a huge amount of short covering, literally 500, 700, 800 tonnes in a very short period of time and the market was absolutely contained by central bank selling. The big central bank selling thats probably been the problem late this year hasnt occurred here, but occurred on that rally. What that did was to provide a huge amount of gold to the market that let the shorts out. Then the shorts were free to go short again once the price went down. Once that rally above 330 failed and we started down again, the funds started to go to the short side again. But the market was already saturated with all the central bank gold that was thrown into the teeth of that short selling rally. Now, Ill also say that the central bank selling has persisted, and persisted in a very uncharacteristically savage way. I mean, these guys have been beating up the dealers. This is very unusual. Central banks normally have operated through the BIS. Then selling was done with a great deal of discretion, it was done very cooperatively with dealers. Were hearing stories about dealers taking losses, getting set up by central banks, saying this is how much were going to sell, theres no more behind it. All of a sudden all the other gold dealers get hit with a couple hundred thousand ounces and the dealer gets bagged. I must say, its very very uncharacteristic. But, at some point, this large short position will unravel. Whether or not you get the sling shot effect, whether you get a powerful rally or not, will depend upon whether or not theres a very very large volume of central bank selling or producer selling or both into the teeth of the short covering rally. My guess is that, when these big central banks are done, yes, therell be central banks that will sell into the teeth of that rally, but the quantities will be less. And then the short covering rally that materializes will be substantial.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:33 - ID#28861)
This bull is well-fed...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:34 - ID#350179)
Taiwan launches diplomatic offensive following setback

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:36 - ID#28593)
TYoung--debt, from this point on, becomes DEBT and it gets
disconcerting at best and downright nasty at the worst! But here again, the mouths-full-of-marbles may spit out a blue marble, or a green marble or a gold nugget. There is not, in Europe, the absolute FEAR of gold that permeates the US, and they'll willingly "associate" with "it" as long
as they need not be "ruled" by it...which is why the "independence of the
cbs, and the fine/deficit penalties to be imposed on the governments is so VERY interesting. Still confused? That means you are really ready for
the Euro! {:- ) )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:40 - ID#350179)
Left these out
Indonesian president delivers grim message at party congress

Bad weather diminishing crops in hunger-stricken North Korea

(Thu Jul 09 1998 14:44 - ID#20748)
France has no plans to sell its gold.
In its annual report in June, The Bank of France said it has no plans to sell its gold reserves, a "pledge of prudent mangement in the eyes of savers and the public."

A good site to keep an eye on is the Bloomberg EMU Update. This story is currently there. I have tried to post the url several times but it gets garbled in reproduction. For those interested, go to Bloomberg world markets, the site is under world currencies in the yellow column.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:03 - ID#287277)

Something else wandering through the Brussels catacombs: a very real angst about the derivatives 'problem' and GLOBAL banks, not just Japanese banksFWIW Got gold? {:- ) bbml

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:03 - ID#365216)
to gunrunner: Yes , I am aware of Brady Bill 2; see below. We must act NOW!!
PS Please email me at
regarding dishonest broker also.

Federal Gun Owner Registration to Begin on November
30, 1998

What would you think about the FBI maintaining a centralized
registry of all gun buyers and gun
sales in West Virginia?
What would you think about the FBI suggesting that
McClure-Volkmer is repealed under the Brady
If you hold an FFL, what do you think about registering yourself
with the FBI in order to stay in
What would you think of a gun registration system that could
record 40,000 buyers per day and
create a new government bureaucracy of 450 people whose sole
purpose in life will be to register
you and your guns?
Why has it been kept a secret so long?

Regardless of what you think, this is a reality. The Federal Government will begin registering all gun
owners starting November 30, 1998. The FBI will be the lead agency that will collect your personal
information and store it in a central databank in Clarksburg, West Virginia.

NVCDL recommends that you read this hard-hitting investigative report by Alan Korwin of Bloomfield
Press. Alan has thoroughly researched what will happen when part 2 of Brady comes on-line in
November of 1998. You won't believe your eyes. You won't believe this is America.

How Did This Happen?

The Brady Law and the proponents of the federal "instant check" system are to blame. NVCDL has
taken the stance from its inception that the federal "instant check" system would transform into the
federal "instant registration" scheme. We were ignored by these proponents and written off as dissidents
for our no-compromise stand on gun rights. Now look what we have! Yet, these same proponents who
destroyed our liberty by writing this provision into the Brady Law are offering no clear solutions, except
to "fix it" and "make it better." We've heard that before.

The Only Solution:

The only solution is to repeal the Brady Law and stop Brady II from coming on-line in November.
Fortunately, Representative Ron Paul ( R-TX ) has introduced HR 2721, the "Second Amendment
Protection Act of 1997." Representative Paul's bill would repeal Brady and destroy the federal
gun-grabbers agenda to register every gun-owner in America. Ron Paul's bill would also repeal the
so-called "Asault Weapons Ban" and the Unconstitutional "Sporting Purposes" definition from federal

My friends, we have no time to waste. Our liberty and very life hang in the balance. One does not need
to look too far back into history to learn that gun-registration is a prelude to confiscation and tyranny.

Visit the Project Vote Smart Webiste. Enter your 9 digit ZIP code to find out who your
representatives are and get their e-mail address and phone numbers:

Back to NVCDL Home Page

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:05 - ID#210235)
@Warning, don't read this at work
or everyone will know you're
goofing off. ( Let's see if this works ) .

Thanks for the advice on getting rid of those spaces.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:06 - ID#20748)
IDT and J
Anything can of course happen, but I am of the view that once the rules are spelt out European CBs would abide by them. Because a deliberate breach of rules, just to beat a deadline, would be interpreted as cheating.

I think ECB may have purposely delayed their announcement to accomodate CBs with gold sales on their mind, and would not be surprised if an announcement were to come out from say Netherlands that they had sold X tonnes of gold during January and February of 1998.

The information in my post yesterday was also picked up from the Bloomberg EMU Update. I cannot overemphasize the importance of this site to this group. Since they keep only four top stories at this site at any given time, stories of interest should be posted on Kitco where others can scroll back.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:07 - ID#210235)
@Thank you thank you!
Squirrel, Trinovant.
Trinovant, going back from preview to the editor before posting fixed the problem with the double-spaced lines.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:18 - ID#286230)
ABX Director Polled
You can vote on Muldoon's award

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:25 - ID#224363)
18 month review
This morning I sat back and thought long and hard about all the news related to gold that has come out over the last 12-18 months. ( Persons with a longer memory then I should comment if I mis-speak. )

It seems that up until relatively recently, there was virtually no news that could be view as positive in regard to gold.

We had:

1 ) Swiss will sell their gold ( over and over we heard this )
2 ) Australia has sold its gold
3 ) Holland has sold its gold
4 ) Belgium has sold its gold
5 ) Gold Mutual funds are the worst performers
6 ) Gold Mutual funds are closing up shop
7 ) Bre-X, Royal Oak, etc. etc. etc
8 ) Huge amounts of hedging
9 ) Huge amounts of short selling ( Hedge funds et al )
10 ) The Euro will be 30%..25%..20%..15%..10%..5%..10%..15%
11 ) Asia in deflation ... impacts gold purchase
12 ) Insightful analysts saying 'Gold is a relic, etc.'

We here we are in the middle of July ( almost ) and:

1 ) 15% of Euro reserves are gold ( not too bad when you think about how liquid the $US is )
2 ) The strong hands ( Germany, France, Italy, US ) remain and the weak hands ( Australia, Belgium, Holland, Canada, Argentina, etc. ) are gone
3 ) The $US is still too strong which is bearish for gold and the Yen and other currencies are too weak which is also bearish for gold. Quite frankly...Although I think the US is an incredible economic engine, I do not for one second believe that it can continue for more than another 2-3 years. The US market is strong within but beneath all of the growth and liquidity is a huge amount of foreign money, etc. At some point ( and I have no idea when ) , that money will move on.

Bottom line. I'm going to ignore the short-term movements to the experts like RJ and DA. I've bought my physical and stocks for the long term ( 2000-2005 ) . I think it is simply a matter of time.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:27 - ID#212323)
You've convinced me to periodically check out Bloombergs. I did notice the difficultly you had with the specific URL posting, but your link to the main page was ok. Could I trouble you to repeat that for me...doubt that I can find your original post.
I'm grateful.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:29 - ID#431366)
LSteve re your 11:37 - Most Interesting!
I had also read that the light damage to the building across the street supports the premise that the truck bomb could not have done the damage it was reported to have done. And the double blast on seismic recordings supports the case for internal blasts.

On Sun May 24 1998 10:39 Steve in TO_
posted a eyecatcher:

On Sat May 09 1998 07:41 ALBERICH__A
had a lengthy post that warrants reading.

Perhaps the military will wage war on the general populace.
Defenders of them who say the troops would not fire on Americans may be correct about the grunts. But the military command structure is guilty of complicity in this affair - simply for being silent. The Army is guilty of doing the dirty deed - with the cooperation of ATF, FBI etc.

What really disturbs me is the murder of those who had evidence.
Same pattern that surrounds Klinton - dozens of suspicious deaths.

If the government can do the above - they can take our Gold, Silver, and our stockpiles of guns, ammo, beef stew and TP.

What does outlawing Gold possession do to the POG?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:30 - ID#359316)
Prometheus: You're welcome!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:35 - ID#350179)
Bloomberg EMU Update test...>

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:38 - ID#218388)
@Selby - Re: Muldoon
I tried to vote but server is down. The majority of Canadians gave their opinion when they voted him out of office. Look at the state of the Conservative party that he left behind! Free Trade - look at the Can. $$$.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:40 - ID#289357)
Tantalus @ U.S. gold confiscation - some historical information

The following refence article will give you some idea of the dealings of the U.S. Treasury with respect to gold confiscation and the status of gold coins, at least up to the time of 1970.

As far as gold coins which are likely to remain insulated from any new confiscation program, pre-1933 coins are pretty safe, from any country. I'll let others attack the question of what you should buy.


The following is a quotation from

"How to Invest in Gold Coins" Donald J. Hoppe, 1970 - Chapter II


Despite the patently obvious evidence of recent years that Gresham's Law is still irresistibly in operation, the student of monetary history and crowd psychology may yet have some reservations about gold investing. Before deciding on gold coins as a safe and profitable investment, with the obvious advantages already mentioned, one may properly question the extent to which man's historic faith in the reliability of gold as a standard of value has been or will be affected by the thirty-four-year campaign of the Keynesian economists to escape from the restrictions and disciplines of gold-based money. ( The question is especially pertinent because of the defection of so many so-called conservative economists and bankers to the viewpoints of the New Economics. )

After all, we in what the French like to call the "Anglo-Saxon camp" have been told for a considerable time now, through our press and by the pronouncements of even some of our highest Treasury and banking officials, that gold, like the Deity in the eyes of some modern theologians, is dead; that the use of gold for monetary purposes or as a store of value is, in that already well worn clich, a "barbarous relic." Furthermore, it is said that the sooner we are able to abandon it completely, the better it will be for us.

But perhaps the demise of gold as the center of the monetary universe has been reported, as was the death of Mark Twain, somewhat prematurely. Although the obituaries continue to be published, the world remains unconvinced. If gold is indeed dead, it has proven to be a rather lively ghost. The author's clipping files concerning monetary subjects indicate that more press copy on the subject of gold has been published during the last two years that at any time since the crisis years of 1933-34. Countless reports on the future of gold and the attendant opportunities for speculation it offers have also been prepared by private financial advisers and services ( and sold at high prices ) since the dying relic, the "echo of the past" has suddenly become a full-blown crisis. Some went so far as to declare that gold was America's number-one problem. But there is still little public agreement on whether the ancient idol will be finally and forever toppled from his throne or restored once more to past glory.

In the author's opinion, the decisive vote was give in 1967 and 1968, when repeated waves of gold speculation swept the gold markets of the world, shaking its very monetary foundations, breaking up the London gold pool and its fixed $35 per ounce gold price and forcing the devaluation of the British pound sterling. The most revealing part of these episodes was that they imposed an ignominious retreat on the neo-Keynesian money managers of the West. In being forced into a tightfisted defense of their stockpiles of monetary gold, the position of the money managers would have been ludicrous but for the tragic effects of the inflation that had already eroded the wealth and vitality of countless peoples.

Ironically, it was these practitioners of the New Economics who had insisted all along that gold was only a superstition, a vestige of a barbarous past, and that we would have been better off to dump it all into the sea. But now that it has apparently been found necessary, for the moment at least, for the United States and its partners in financial experiment to defend at all costs ( that is, with whatever further sacrifices may be required of their citizens ) what is left of their monetary gold stocks, it may be suggested ( with tongue in cheek ) that we dump our money managers into the sea instead.

However, it is obvious that the present show of defending gold by Britain and the United States, through various austerity programs, exchange controls, high taxes, etc., is a tactical expedient only. The ultimate goal remains the implementation of some new international paper-money scheme, an eventual total devaluation of the dollar, and the complete demonetization of gold. Therefore, stability in the price of gold and an end to the long-term inflation that has accompanied the ascendancy of the New Economics are nowhere in sight. Additional waves of gold speculation, gold-buying panics and recurrent gold crises are not only probable but inevitable.

What part the citizen of the United States and his British cousin have played in these events has been somewhat restricted, legally at least, by the actions of their respective governments. They have been prohibited by law and regulation from direct participation in the purchase, sale or ownership of gold in bullion or monetary form.

In most other civilized lands ( and some that are not so civilized ) the ownership of bar gold and gold in any other form is not only permitted but, as in the case of France and Switzerland, often tacitly encouraged. These enlightened countries believe that gold in the hands of private citizens is an aid to internal economic stability and complements rather that competes with the official reserves of their central banks. By allowing the free use of gold as a store of value, the other Western countries have eased somewhat the burden of inflation upon their citizens. Unfortunately, the insidious disease of inflation is, as a matter of record, chronic in every country that practices neo-Keynesian economics. But by permitting the private possession of gold in any form, France and Switzerland at least recognize that the least sophisticated and affluent of their citizens should have the right to defend themselves.

The only other major nation, besides the U.S. and Britain, that prohibits free commerce in gold by its inhabitants is the Soviet Union. Private holdings or transactions in the yellow metal are considered there to be "economic crimes' - most serious offenses in a Marxist state. Those engaged in them are subject to the firing squad. ( Yet is has been reliably reported that a flourishing black market in gold continues to exist in Russia and the other Marxist states ) Curiously enough, the writer finds that the parallel presented by the United States and the Soviet Union, regarding the private holding of gold as an infringement on a state monopoly and therefore a crime, is neither unbelievable nor incongruous. Perhaps the "big brother" philosophy of economics is rather easily recognized whatever its stage of development.

Worldwide, the record of the neo-Keynesian money mangers in the area of maintaining the purchasing power of their fiat currencies has been deplorable. But perhaps I am too harsh on the proponents of the New Economics; after all, monetary delinquency antedates Keynes by a considerable period; it is of course as old as money itself. The coin clippers and debasers caused as much ruin and suffering in ancient times as the paper-money inflationists have in the twentieth century.

But holding aside for a time further comments on the great questions concerning future trends of inflation and the coming rise in the price of gold, let us proceed directly to the problems and opportunities confronting people generally and citizens of the United States and Britain in particular who might wish to speculate on these possibilities, or who might want to invest in a gold-related activity as a hedge. Since possession of monetary gold ( bullion ) by citizens of the U.S. and Britain is unlawful, there remain only two ( legal ) avenues of gold investment open to them: the purchase of shares in gold-mining companies, and the collection of gold coins.

The gold coin was once a very vital part, at times the lifeblood, of the economic body. Today is not so. The lifeblood of the New Economics is credit. The coin of gold, the ancient king of money, was forced to abdicate in disgrace during the depths of the Great Depression and it has been banished from the realm ever since. But the gold coin still has a meaning, and sometimes a very profitable one, for those who have the eyes to see it.

The provisions of the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 and the Executive Orders and banking laws of 1933, which originally demonetized and confiscated all outstanding gold coin in the United States, prohibited the individual possession of gold bullion ( or any other recognizable use of gold as a store of value ) . However, they made no prohibitions regarding the ownership of gold-mining stocks, and they also permitted the retention of gold coins of "recognizable numismatic value." Failure of the original legislation to define adequately what constituted recognizable numismatic value caused considerable confusion for some years, but in general, the parts of the gold regulations concerning numismatics were not rigidly enforced - at least not to the point of harassing collectors of gold coins.

It is now obvious that considerable quantities of U.S. gold coin were never surrendered at the time of the original order. Some coin was withheld because it was in the possession of foreign citizens, banks, or governments, and some because its owners chose to defy their government because of what they considered to be an arbitrary and unjust confiscation. Considerable quantities of American gold coin also found residence in Canada. At any rate, choice uncirculated U.S. and foreign gold coins were generally available through coin dealers in the United States after 1934 and they sold at prices that from today's vantage point were fantastically cheap.

Unusually strong demand for the more common gold coins, strictly as a speculation on a possible rise in the price of gold or as a hedge against inflation, occurred from time to time, notably in 1946, 1957, and 1961, but in general, the market for the so-called common type of gold coins remained unexciting - until 1967. In the truly numismatic area, however, astute and knowledgeable collectors gradually reaped a tremendous reward for their patience. During the postwar years, gold coins of unusual scarcity or rare numismatic value enjoyed a spectacular and continuous rise in price.

In the forties and fifties, the U.S. Treasury held most of the world's gold bullion, and consequently, the attitude of the government toward gold-coin collectors was one of indifference, even though the legality of possessing so-called common-date coins was somewhat questionable, at least until 1954. Prior to that year, the Treasury held the opinion that it alone had the right to determine whether or not any gold coin was of numismatic value. Determinations were to be made on the merits of each individual coin presented to the Treasury for ruling.

The pre-1954 criterion for judging a coin minted before 1933 was whether or not the coin in question had possessed a recognized numismatic value on or before April 5, 1933. Gold coins minted after 1933 were to be judged on the basis of the number issued, the purpose for which they were issued, their condition, mint mark, historical significance and other numismatic factors. However, there appeared to be no great rush of collectors to the Treasury Building to have their coins checked.

It must be admitted, however, that the Treasury Department of that era did not rigidly or aggressively enforce a narrow and legalistic interpretation of the "numismatic value" provision of the Gold Reserve Act. Had it done so, American numismatics would have suffered severe and irreparable damage; many fine gold coins which are now the prized possessions of American collectors would have been lost forever. "Numismatic value" is a term of varied and at times subtle meaning. Many regular-issue coins gradually become scarce or even rare, through natural attrition, while they are still technically part of the circulating medium, and these scarcity situations are invariably recognized at first only by the most astute and sophisticated collectors. By the time the numismatic value of such coins becomes common knowledge, it is usually well past the point where that value or the potential for numismatic value was actually acquired.

There is also the case of the unusually well struck or prooflike coin which was selected from a regular issue; certainly this type of coin has exceptional numismatic value even though the issue it was taken from was not particularly scarce. And how does one objectively judge the roll of uncirculated coins put away by the foresighted for the benefit of future generations of numismatists? And specimen coins retained because of their artistic merit or historical associations? Surely the final U.S. gold-coin series designed by Augustus St. Gaudens, on of America's most noted sculptors, would fall into this latter class. To have ruthlessly insisted on the surrender of all gold coins extant on or before April 5, 1933, that were still technically part of the circulating medium, and/or not obviously or generally recognized to be of unusual historic numismatic value, would have been catastrophic indeed, as far as numismatics is concerned.

But the Treasury officials of that day chose to be tolerant, if not amiable, and, except for prevent the importation of large numbers of post-1933 foreign gold coins, did little to disturb numismatic gold activity. Apparently, numismatists, collectors, and even hoarders were too few in number at that time to cause alarm on the Potomac. Whatever the reason, we can feel thankful that the Treasury authorities of the first quarter-century following the demise of gold coinage in the U.S. did not flail about with the typical bureaucratic myopia that has characterized their successors. In any case, the "common" U.S. gold coins ( which, as we know now, are anything but common ) and most pre-1933 foreign gold coins were allowed to be traded and collected more or less openly during the years prior to 1954.

In 1954, the Treasury Department recognized at last that the time had come to legitimize the numismatic gold market. Consequently, an amendment was made to the Gold regulations, to the effect that all gold coins minted prior to 1933 would subsequently be presumed to be rare and of recognized special value to collectors, without the necessity of further specific determinations by the Treasury. Coins minted after 1933 were still subject to specific Treasury Department rulings, which were to be base on the advice of the Curator of Numismatics of the United States National Museum. All U.S. gold coins and the vast majority of foreign gold coins were thus freed from the overhanging threat of confiscation, and a new era for American numismatics appeared to begin.

It might have been reasonable to expect after 1954 that further relaxation of the Treasury's Gold Regulations, particularly as they applied to numismatics, would be a natural development in time. But the subsequent course of American economic history ruled otherwise. By 1960, the underlying inflationary instability of the Western world had reached the point where the once seemingly unlimited gold reserves at Fort Knox had noticeably begun to shrink.

This unfortunate ( and, in my opinion, wholly avoidable ) turn of events precluded any possibility of further liberalization of the gold rules, numismatic or other. Instead, in 1961, the Kennedy Administration saw the necessity of establishing within the Treasury Department the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations ( ODGSO ) , in order to institute a more rigorous control over the import and export of gold and silver, the licensing of jewelers, goldsmiths and industrial users of gold, and import and sale of gold coins.

The most positive accomplishment of the new ODGSO was to reaffirm, as its own policy, the 1954 amendments to the Gold Regulations, which ruled that all gold coins minted prior to 1934 are rare and consequently of recognized numismatic value. For gold coins minted after 1933, the office required a separate ruling in each case and the issuance of a special permit for the importation of possession of each post-1933 coin approved. ( Once an initial ruling on a particular coin was made, however, no further permits or applications were necessary to purchase or hold other coins of the same identity within the United States, although a license to import any post-1933 gold coin is still required, whether it has been previously approved or not. )

By some obscure and tenuous logic ODGSO also required ( until 1969 ) a permit to import pre-1934 gold coins, even though the purchase or possession ( or both ) of such coins was unrestricted within the United States. I might add that the majority of applicants desiring to import pre-1933 gold coins were invariably refused.

The author once applied for a permit to import some pre-1933 Mexican gold coins offered by a Canadian dealer. The license was refused, even though the coins under consideration were the rarest of their series and selling for more than twice their intrinsic value, on the grounds that they were "not of exceptional numismatic value within the meaning of the Treasury Department Gold Regulations." In reply, I could only point out, politely ( and in vain ) , that the Treasury Department Gold regulations, which ODGSO was supposed to be administering, stated without qualification that all gold coins made prior to 1934 were to be considered of "recognized special value to collectors." The spectacle of federal regulatory agencies regulating themselves in a circle is at times wondrous to behold.

Fortunately, the 1954 amendments are now a well-established precedent, and they provided at least a basic protection for the numismatic gold collector. Furthermore, although it has required a change of administrations, ODGSO has finally come to recognize that some of its interpretations of the gold rules have been, in the words of its new director, "of dubious merit."

On April 22, 1969, the Gold Regulations of the U.S. Treasury Department were amended to correct the obvious and unreasonable inconsistency introduced by Executive Order 11037, issued July 20, 1962, which required, among other things, a permit from ODGSO for the importation of pre-1934 gold coins. The new director of ODGSO, Mr. Thomas Wolfe, appointed by the Nixon Administration, admitted candidly that "it really didn't make a lot of sense" for ODGSO to prohibit or confiscate a pre-1934 gold coin coming from abroad, when the collector could walk across the street and buy the same coin in the U.S. without restriction.

Therefore, the provisions requiring a license to import pre-1934 gold coins were eliminated. Collectors and dealers in the U.S. are now free to import such coins, provided they are genuine, subject only to the usual customs regulations and import duties. Counterfeits or restrikes, however, are subject to confiscation, regardless of a pre-1934 date. The Gold Regulations were further amended to require import licenses only for gold coins struck from 1934 through 1959. The granting of such licenses is to be subject to the usual criterion of judgement. No gold coins struck after 1959 will be admitted, except for those issues already granted exemption by ODGSO prior to April 30, 1969. ( A list of the exempt post-1959 gold coins will be found on page 286. )

The 1969 modifications of the Gold Regulations bring a welcome breath of fresh air into the bureaucratic smog that has shrouded the rulings and statements of the Treasury and ODGSO since 1961. However, one can only regret the arbitrary cut-off date of 1959, which automatically excludes such highly desirable numismatic treasures as the Canadian $20 centennial gold coin of 1967, and most of the post-1960 commemorative gold coins of Israel.

Fortunately, past history has demonstrated that common sense eventually triumphs, even in the Treasury; we can therefore continue to hope that the absolute 1960 cut-off ruling will also be re-considered one day.

By contrast, however, British gold collectors were apparently dealt a severe blow when in 1966 the Bank of England issued regulations requiring the registration of all coin collectors and limiting collectors to no more than four gold coins minted after 1837. But fortunately, as was the case with the original numismatic provisions of our own Gold Reserve Act of 1934, these rules were softened considerably in their administration. Although not specifically stated in the regulations, it has been made known that "collectors may possess two gold coins or sets of any one type or series, that is, two 1887 five-pound pieces, two 1902 two-pound pieces, two 1937 proof sets, etc. - only holders of large quantities of common-date sovereigns will be required to surrender them.

The citizen of the United States, if interested in acquiring a speculative or investment position in gold, is then limited to gold-mining stocks or gold coins. The citizen of Great Britain has the same options except that he is much more limited in the are of coins. The natives of Canada, France, Switzerland, Germany, South Africa, and innumerable other areas of the world, presumably not as far along on the path of enlightenment as we, are free to do as they please regarding gold.

There has been some talk that once gold was successfully demonetized by the U.S., the free holding of gold by its citizens would be permitted. If this is ever tried, it will be as a last desperate bluff to prove that the dollar is better than gold. But like our former policies of trying to hold down the international price of gold by selling it freely through the London "gold pool" and trying to hold down the price of silver through massive Treasury sales, it will be just another phenomenal failure. By its demented economic and fiscal policies of the last three decades, the U.S. government has forfeited all confidence in its ability to maintain the value of its currency. If U.S. citizens were now granted the right to cash in some of their paper dollars for gold, what is left of our national gold reserve would disappear in a month.

In Russia and the Marxist countries of Eastern Europe, there are of source no gold-mining stocks. If it were not for the Communist ideology, however, no doubt there would be; the Soviet Union is thought to be the third largest producer of gold in the world ( after South Africa and Canada ) , although the actual production figures are a closely guarded state secret. It is also reported that the Russians pay production cost equivalent to $100 an ounce for their gold. Despite Lenin's boast that gold would one day pave the public rest rooms in the worker's paradise, the Russians seem to have found other uses for it - like buying vitally needed equipment and raw materials in Europe, Africa, and Asia.

But as we have said, private trafficking in gold bullion in the Soviet Union is considered ( as in the United States ) a most serious crime. The state mints occasionally issue gold commemorative coins and medals, and sometimes restrikes of older gold coins. We can assume they are sold on a strict on-to-a-customer basis at home, although some of these restrikes have been widely exported to the West ( and smuggled into the United States ) for profitable sale. However, whether a tovarich can acquire a collection of gold coins without arousing the suspicion that he is surreptitiously planning an "economic crime" I do not know, but I imagine the mental hazards are discouraging.

The general worldwide availability and popularity of gold coins as an investment and speculative medium, and the rather intense activity of recent months call for diligent, thorough and hopefully objective investigations in the merits, hazards, techniques and problems involved in the purchase and collection of gold coins. That is the main purpose of this volume. It is hoped that it will also serve an auxiliary purpose by revealing something of the extent of monetary deterioration in the West and by showing the absolute necessity, as well as the advantages, of finding alternative stores of value to rapidly depreciating paper currency.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:42 - ID#212323)
Search back through History...
Do you recall any emperor or king that wore a paper hat for a crown? What does this tell you?
That's right! It tells you that origami is a rleatively new science, so back then they had to make the best of the situation and make due with scrap material that noone needed for anything else. Cumbersome ugly stuff, that gold.
Be your own king.
got paper?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:47 - ID#260389)
Shorting Gold
Based on gold's history over the last twenty years what would be wrong with switching horses in mid stream and shorting gold? I see nothing on the horizon to cause serious inflation. In fact I can see a greater chance of deflation. The CB's have succeeded in divorcing gold from monetary issues so what is left? I'm not joking. There are still a lot of star gazers out there that are hoping against hope for a rocket to the moon. What is wrong with taking their money? Somebody sure took mine before I wised up. Now I want some of it back. Any thoughts?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:47 - ID#431366)
General - writing to our Congressional "representatives" - hah hah
Only gets you on the list of troublemakers. They are all part and parcel of the crooks and traitors who govern us. My representative is supposedly "pro-gun" and anti-Brady according to the NRA. But that self-serving ladder-climber will sell us out to go up another rung. He doesn't give a wit about us. He doesn't answer letters and he schedules town meetings during the business day when most folks have to be working. At least shiftworkers can make the meetings - if their schedules mesh. Those who don't work for a living can of course make day meetings where they ask for more bennies. This all bodes ill for our future.
Sure we can hoard Gold ( I can only afford Silver ) . But then we must bury it someplace. After they outlaw private possession the first time you actually try to use it some snitch will bring the feds down on you.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:48 - ID#350179)
It's a mystery to me... works just fine from notepad

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:50 - ID#212323)
MM thanks for the Bloomberg site.
I see what is happening. The browser automatically assumes the link is an e-mail address due to the presence of the @ symbols. It works if you simply cut and paste it to the address window. Thanks for your help.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:51 - ID#20748)
Aragorn III
Here's the url. Click on Go Markets and the on the Bloomberg EMU Update.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:53 - ID#20748)
Aragorn III. Let's try again
Here's the url. Click on Go Markets and the on the Bloomberg EMU Update.

Spud Master
(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:56 - ID#28586)
@B2J, gold, Inflation, FedGov disinformation and the Moon....
Herr Spud, that bon vivant, biped-about-town,just got back from a heart-healthy meal at the La Madeline's of formerly fast-food, MacDonalds:

hamburger: 79 cents
cheeseburger: 99 cents
medium drink: $ 1.19

Your memory may be failing, but mine isn't.


Wake up America -- we are being screwed over left and right with the willing complicity of the "free press".

As my honorable, moral and faithful President would say:

"There *is* no inflation"

yea... try 1776 NOW!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:57 - ID#20748)
Aragorn III
Just type.

They really scramble their urls

(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:58 - ID#410198)
General......As for the Gold&Silver Report.....I do not put a lot of credit in there reporting,
for instance his worst company to do busness is known to me,and both of these guys have,lets just say...... they have disagreed with each other for years...its a personal if he lets his bias get the better of him here,how can you trust his unbiased opion.... a true test of all those companys is to ask if they have a policy of talking your phone number,and if they do, ask how often do they call.......

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 15:59 - ID#212323)
MONOPOLY...the greatest of modern boardgames...responsible for more family strife than all others
Parker Bros. is introducing a new token ( game piece ) that will be selected based on public voting. The choice are all nice...a biplane, a piggy bank, and a moneybag--overflowing with what has to be gold coin and gold certificates.
Unfortunately, my browser can bring up the first page, but not the additional pages to allow me to vote. SOMEBODY PLEASE CHECK IT OUT AND VOTE FOR THE MONEYBAG on my behalf. I will be most appreciative.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:00 - ID#286284)
Si stocks UP 1.5 mill ozs.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:01 - ID#212323)
NJ...your first one worked fine for me. I also got directly there via my post to MM
Thanks, bud.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:05 - ID#286230)
Muldoon's Poll
Try again kitcat--its working now.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:15 - ID#350179)
ARAGORN III: see if these will help ( it all looked like paper to me )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:19 - ID#288186)
sam; Well, that kind of stinks...I'd rather the Silver shorts didn't have ammo
to drive this market back down. I don't know how much traders pay
attention to these figures, but I think they're somewhat responsible
for driving the direction in the short term. I still think the overall
direction of Silver Warehouse stocking levels is down, though. I'm also
dreaming/hoping for the direction of Silver to be up, UP, AND AWAY!!
( eventually ) ...Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:22 - ID#359316)
Alas, that moneybag is more than likely to be overflowing with
FRNs, bonds, Treasury notes, stock certificates, yen, renminbi,
zlotys, marks, francs, pounds, rands, rupees, riyals, $AUS, $CAN,
lira, won, baht, rubles.

Is there a vote for "other, please specify"? Wouldn't a nice
shiny miniature 400 oz "good delivery bar" look good on the
Monopoly board?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:26 - ID#359316)
AragornIII - I tried, but all I got was a
JavaScript error. User friendly web pages - NOT

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:26 - ID#37292)
Awright Feet...let's get serious about this....
You've got the gold fever and it won't go away -- I know all the symptoms. So far, lots of people have told you what not to do, or at least advised that they themselves wouldn't do it. Now I am going to tell you what TO do so you won't get into trouble, will satisfy your itch, will get a feeling of accumulating wealth, have a chance at capital appreciation, be rather anonymous about it, and really, really enjoy the experience.

First: recognize that holding a heavy golden disc in your hand that has some time honored warranty of intrinsic value is a religious experience in itself, which seems to be important to you. Recognize also that except for a few lost jewelry pieces, no gold ever goes back into the ground. It is always either newly mined or refined from scrap in some form. In that one ounce chunk you may be holding someone's old wedding ring, sweepings off the jeweler's bench, a couple of grandma's crowns, the class ring given in love and hocked in hatred, a souvenir charm or two from some past trip, or some dust that a panner found in a stream during the 19th century. It could also be the result of a central bank unloading its specie on the open market in favor of paper promises.

So, the very fact that gold is gold -- beautiful in color, heavy and substantial, scarce, valuable, mystical, historical, and has symbolized future security in love and war for centuries-- makes it desirable to own.. Yes, you have gold fever, and I do too. But...let's keep our heads about us.

So here's what you do. If you live in a city large enough to have a coin show, go. Take $1000 with you in cash....Buy one each of the following coins in one ounce denominations: a Krugerrand, a Maple Leaf, and an American Eagle. Shop a couple of tables for the best price and don't ask for a receipt. If anyone wants to give you one, tell them you are Oliver North. You have now started a collection -- what's more boring than a hundred of the same old coin. We will get to a hundred, but not all a once. Take them home -- lift them, hold the greasy things in your hand, imagine who owned them before you, why did they sell them? Compare the designs and wonder why one is more lovely to your eye than the other.

Next month, of course depending on your budget, buy one or maybe two more -- but different. Look for a Panda, a Philharmonic, a Nugget, a Britannia, or other similar. Add it to your collection. When you have accumulated the Nationalistic one ouncers, look at the beautiful coins of Mexico and the United States. Add a US 20, a Mexican 50, etc....

You are going to be a coin collector of gold coins of the world without worrying about peaks and valleys and whether you can scalp a market dip for a couple of bucks. If you don't have access to a coin show within a reasonable distance, order them by mail from reputable dealers with close spreads. Buy a Coin World -- there are lots of highly competitive ads from very reliable businesses. If you can't find a show or a Coin World, I will send you a couple of issues free and pay the postage to get them to you.

Here's the bottom line: Have a plan, diversify your holdings so you can enjoy your purchases, learn and study, do it only on non-essential money without borrowing to get wealthy quick, and have fun with the thrill of the hunt. You will accumulate wealth and an interesting estate to pass along if you wish, or you can choose to sell if a strong market comes your way. In any event, relax and put yourself in a gold position where you can sleep well at night.

Now, take the change from your original $1000 buy, go to the hardware store and get the biggest ball peen hammer you can carry. Whenever you feel the urge to get greedy and jump in all at once or stray from your plan in any way, hit yourself in the head with that hammer just as a reminder not to. Good luck and I sincerely mean it!

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:28 - ID#347267)
Doing my part!
Decided to yank a lever, and the only way I could figure how to stop this X!@%&#*% market from going up forever was to sell my position in RYURX.
IT WORKED!! ( For today, anyway ) Hold the thanks till we see what happens tomorry! Now if I can figure out how to jump start GOLD!!!
Mtn Bear

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:31 - ID#327123)
@Mooney & Disney
Check your E-Mail. You have alot of reading to do!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:34 - ID#238422)
My thought is that it's too late to go short,
but you can try...On the other hand, do not
try to take money from pros ( guys who took
your money ) , they do not usually like it...

Best of luck to you.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:38 - ID#20748)
Japanese Communist Party
expected to increase number of seats held by them from 6 to 20. Wonder if Clinton snub to Japan has something to do with it.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:40 - ID#212323)
MM...Bingo! It worked. Got my vote sent for the bag o' gold.
If you look carefully you can see little coins amongst the paper gold certificate. And you know the bag is full of gold coins based on its shape.
You gotta have faith. Thanks again for the URLs!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:41 - ID#252127)
Free from The Northern Miner

Just something to keep an eye on as the time flies.
Info about a Canadian far north gold property developed by WMC with a 56% interest. Other participants with the following interests are Comaplex 22% and Cumberland 22%.
WMC is the big Aussie Miner.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:41 - ID#28593)

1. Payments from Central Banks to the State

Eurostat has first analysed the nature of payments made by central banks resulting from the revaluation of foreign exchange reserves, including monetary gold and foreign currencies. Because of the specific role played by the central bank within the economy, General Government usually holds most of or all the equity capital. In the national accounts ( ESA 79 ) , as a principle, any revaluation of foreign exchange changes the value of its shareholding. The latter includes the counterpart of the revaluation, recorded in the balance sheet on the liabilities side in a reserve account or in a clearing account. Thus, when the central bank pays
back to General Government the counterpart of the revaluation of foreign
exchange reserves, the value of shareholding is reduced, similar to a capital reduction. It is a financial transaction. Therefore, it has no effect on the public deficit measured according to the principles of ESA 79.

Eurostat has also examined the question of exceptional sales of foreign
currencies realised by central banks. In contrast to regular interventions on the exchange market, the exceptional nature of these transactions is linked to their large size and to the fact that they are not related to the exchange rate policy. Referring to the decision on sales of gold1 made in several Member States, Eurostat considers that the repayment to General Government of all or a part of the proceeds of exceptional sales of foreign currencies must be recorded as a financial transaction. Therefore, no effect on the public deficit can arise.

Both these decisions were taken following the unanimous favourable opinion of the CMFB.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:42 - ID#212323)
Trinovant--Oh YEAH!!!!! Great idea!
"Is there a vote for "other, please specify"? Wouldn't a nice
shiny miniature 400 oz "good delivery bar" look good on the
Monopoly board?"

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:43 - ID#252107)
Merrill Lynch says Buffett is traped & looking to sell
New report says Buffett paid to fly expect on India from London to NY to explain what went wrong with the collapse in demand for silver. Report says that Indian demand for silver stops completely over $6. High cost in silver in rupee terms caused Indian demand to collapse by 84.3% so far in 1998 compared to 1997. It expects to see silver down at $4 according to concensus of London dealers who expect Buffett may try to buy puts on silver and deliver against short positions. Just got this by fax today it is dated July 9th, 1998.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:47 - ID#410198)
Every bought a stock/fund and it went higher but you still lost money? read it and weap

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:56 - ID#288186)
Please tell us...What kind of fax service is this? Are u joking with
us? Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:56 - ID#242325)
Gold and news
Gold did not too too badly today considering the huge surge in the dollar index. Reaction to news is improving, but remains far from great. Still, the fact that this this crucial indicator is moving in the right direction is quite significant.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:57 - ID#174239)
NJ and Aragorn III: CB gold sales and monopoly
NJ: If it is possible for a central bank to unload gold without the public finding out, then why should they ever anounce it? Perhaps they hope to drive down prices in order to buy some back after the anouncement?

Arragorn III: I think the piggy bank is just as likely to be full of gold, silver, and platinum American Eagles. The bag lookek to me to be full of monopoly money.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 16:57 - ID#213265)
@the scene
vronsky -- Re: Kutyns articles; Yupper! Babylon indeed IS falling! And I mean this debt-based fiat paper system that it partially is.

Free trade equates to 'race to the bottom', and destruction of whole societies. Most especially when those countries where the jobs move to do not pay the wages so those people may also participate in the marketplace to much of an extent. And 'they' wonder why the world has overcapacity!

Aug Live Cattle, Oct sugar, Sept cocoa, grains and gold and silver should begin a ramp up tomorrow or into Monday in my estimation.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:02 - ID#431366)
Aragorn III - I voted for the GOLDEN money bag
and for old token I voted for the battleship
- for my dear old Navy vet dad.

Good Gosh those web pages are slow to load
even at 28,800

P.S. Your post reminded me that I have not been able to locate Risk in local stores so I posted them an e-mail to that effect. I wonder if it is still sold. But as usual with large outfits - I do not expect a response.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:03 - ID#252391)
ML on Buffett
More negative news on Buffett from ML, London? Dealer expect silver to go to $4? Indians have stopped buying silver? Buffett to sell!!!

I doubt it , but the last time rumors like this out of ML Londaon silver was 10-15% higher than it is now.

Metals a t this rate will eventually be worthless. Buffett better sell.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:05 - ID#39857)
John Disney, nice one.
I see HGMCY hit your target. HGMCY -2.78% LIHRY +0.0%.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:07 - ID#431366)
Now if we could only have circulating Gold & Silver Coins
To put in our money bags or pockets.
Instead of this folding stuff.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:08 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 31.20. The 50 day moving average is 30.35

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:09 - ID#288295)
A fine plan, a mighty fine plan. And trust me, I've had to USE that ball peen hammer several times, myself! ROFLMAO ( ;^ ) )

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:12 - ID#212323)
Kitco keeps you on top of current events.
Glad to see so many checked out the MONOPOLY site ( Grizz--yer right, she loads mighty slow ) . I hope you all appreciated that this whole affair was launched only yesterday. We are indeed RIGHT ON TOP OF THINGS.

To anyone interested, use MM's top link to save time. Just check out the BULGE in that money bag. Only gold could do that. And consider the MONOPOLY era timeframe...this is probably some of the gold rounded up in 1933. The gold certs on top are from some disgruntled citizen who said "Here, dammit, you might as well take EVERYTHING!"

Take it back! Vote for the gold moneybag!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:12 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .234. The 50 day moving average is .256. My database contains 31 occasions where the XAU closed in the 68.XX range. Ranked according to the gold price, today is #25. The #1 ranking was on June 12, 1986, with a gold price of $346.70, an XAU of 68.19, producing an XAU/AU ratio of .197

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:15 - ID#212323)
I agree, Taxasgoldpost went and done good.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:15 - ID#26793)
Gold/Silver Ratio = 54.55. The 50 day moving average is 54.44

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:16 - ID#286284)

Yeah - disappointing numbers today. But stand back a little and take stock ( sorry ) in the fact that the warehouse stocks have _not_ gone up. This is incredible, if you think about it. Some ( +/- ) 80 million ozs were withdrawn for delivery in London last year; once delivered, a good chunk of this metal was leased back out; to date _none_ of this metal has found its way back into visible New York stocks. Makes you wonder who's got it now? And what price they're willing to sell at, eh?

Sam2 ( _not_ Sam -- must change my handle!! )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:17 - ID#26793)
The numbers below are all 50 day moving averages.
Spot gold $295.97; spot silver $5.45; XAU 75.98

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:26 - ID#288186)
jefsilver7; Sure would like more info on your fax service and this "latest report"
Thanks, Fox-Man

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:28 - ID#350179)
Used to be on topic...this is from April
Silver Price Depends on Buffett and India

Now yer starting to scare me...
They should still have it ( the actual board version ) at Toys-R-Us
ever tried A&A

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:29 - ID#261322)
Jims-buffet to sell
Rea the lack of Indian buying of silver. I was under the impression that they had been rather large buyers a few days back-hence the price boost ( also of a few days back )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:32 - ID#43460)
On the bright side, SWC is hanging tough. I'm still hanging onto it for now.

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:43 - ID#229103)
If Buffett was going to sell, I think he would've/did at $7
Bob Brinker believes Yardeni on Y2K but thinks it will only be a "small" disaster:

Buy that Dow. Sell those metals. I need more.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:48 - ID#288295)
Aragorn III
ROFLMAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my a$$ off! ( Tex's message hit home )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:51 - ID#252107)
ML on Buffet is in Daily Metals Report by Commodity Dept by T Arnold
Report quotes a speech at London Bullion Dealers diner on Buffett. It says that Buffett was looking to sell between $7 and $8 but was caught off guard by collapse in Indian demand. Speech was given by Professor Gemmill? who is said to be some expert on silver in London. Buffett paid a Mr. Daga to fly over and brief him on what went wrong with supply/demand forecasts. Buffett's cost is over $5.50. "Dubai dealers argue that with the Rupee at 42 to the dollar, $5 an oz silver is too expensive." Report goes on to say that Buffett may try to squeeze the market forcing it up to $5.75 and then dump according to bullion dealers. Report quotes numerous dealers who all seem to be looking for $4.

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 17:55 - ID#212323)
Silverbaron...I knew you were rolling on the floor laughing...
but I didn't know what else you were doing down there.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:02 - ID#338289)
Grizz: Eat your heart out...
I'm the proud owner of a Risk game that is soooooo old the pieces are made out of wood instead of plastic. Saved it from me childhood, I did, so I could play it with my kids. Such lovely memories of many games past.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:11 - ID#350179)
Bandwidth waste (sorry Bart)
Uh oh...
Select Schedule,
select next ten events...
( go to Saturday, 7/18/98 )

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:13 - ID#212323)
A good summary as a follow-up to my comments yesterday (The Euro) aroung 13:04 I believe(?)
"Size and freedom of movement are important in picking a reserve currency, but so is the expectation that the real purchasing power that was initially deposited will be there whenever the depositor wants to withdraw the funds. If there is a choice, no one wants to hold reserves in a currency that is falling in value. Ideally one would like to be in a currency that is rising in value so that one gets a little appreciation along with safety."
As I stated, momentum is worth something in the investment climate of the day. The manipulations will be such that at the time of euro-launch ( Jan 1st, 1999 ) the dollar will be too strong and the Euro will be poised to climb. The Euro countries will ride this wave as long as they can before natural selection dictates that gold will reign supreme. And many have here posted to this effect: markets move and react much faster today than they did in the past. The day of all currencies being fixed to gold ( and oh, what an exchange rate THAT will be! ) may soon be at hand. If Y2K were to be a non-event, I'd give it 4 years. I can't venture a guess given the many possible outcomes from a full scale societal collapse. In bad times, I would gladly PAY with cash, but I would only want to BE PAID with something of lasting value.

got gold?

Tantalus Rex
(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:13 - ID#295111)
European Gold Reserves
Here are some excerpts from an article I read a couple of months ago. Dominick Brother predicted the percenatge of gold reserves!!! But I'm pretty skeptical about his reasoning and his secret contacts within the ECB. I do believe gold will go up in the long term though. Just keep accummulating gold and gold stocks as I have been doing. I had sold all my gold stocks in favour of physical... but I'm now buying back into gold stocks as the pay checks roll in from work.

By Dominick Brother ( May 25, 1998, Heavy Metals Meltdown Magazine, Toronto )

.... It is very important to note that any declaration of gold reserves to be held by the European Central Bank can and will change with the passage of time. Just look at all the amendments to constitutions that have changed and take place all over the world.

.... The fair value of gold has already been secretly set by the ECB at an initial value $294 U.S. However, the ECB believes the POG will rise to a stable price range of $565 to $610 between the year 2000 and the end of year 2001.

.... The ECB wants to hold gold reserves valued at 30% using a "future" stable POG since todays prices are not a true reflection of fair value and the price will be highly volatile. Thus, the stable POG they will use is the average price of $565 and $610 which is $587.50.

... Since the fair value has been set artificially by the ECB at $294, then the percentage backing of gold reserves is calculated simply as ( 294 / 588 x 30% = 15% ) . Don't be surprised to see the ECB declare gold reserves in the 12.5% to 17.5% range.

.... The ECB has strategic goals to keep inflation low and minimize the printing EUROs. Increasing the EURO money supply may force the ECB to acuire more gold to maintain its percentage of gold reserves. But note that as the POG rises, they can and will increase the money supply.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:27 - ID#373284)
Merrill Lynch....ah.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha
ha.ha.ha.ha.ha....Buffett is trapped...if anyone out ther believes that you need to go have your head x-rayed and see if there is anything closely resembling a brain in it... Ah. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.....................

And there are little green men on Mars and the Earth is flat, Oh this is rich...hee.hee.hee....................................NOT!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:28 - ID#253246)
Aragorn III *****was it you moving that CAU $ up today

Aragorn III

If that was you buying up that CAU today hep me out with my silver standard and TVX tomorrow. MY pm picks this year are getting lower than a snakes belley

Bob Brinker has joke about goldbugs; How does a goldbug make
$20 thousand ?? He spends $40 thosuand thats me lately

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:32 - ID#212323) are correct sir!
And EB, were he here right now, would likely suggest that they get their panties outta their cracks. ( A borrowed phrase from days past )

Let's see, Tol, how did you put it? Oh yes...AH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:35 - ID#373284)
to the III of the house of ARAGORN, Namaste' heh, heh, heh......
Yeah. Oh yeah...Sounds toooooooooo meeeeeeeeeeee...Merrill Lynch is caught with their pants addition there are very specific laws governing the way silver and India interact...Ah.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.ha.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:35 - ID#258142)
@Tantalus Rex, 18:13
This figure, 15% of Gold in ECB reserves, was known in January. Read my Mar 18 1998 17:15. Sorry for self-quote

Aragorn III
(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:40 - ID#212323)
BUFFORD *********Canyon Resources*********
Jeeeeez the price is right on that one. I'm curious what the expected timeframe is for these mothballs. If they don't spend another dime EVER on McDonald, their gonna show quarter after quarter PROFITS on their existing operations. Of course, the temptation will be to roll this right into completing the Montana EIS process. All we need is POG at 310+ and Canyon is unstoppable. Someone, someday, is gonna mine that ore body, and I feel Canyon can do it like no other. Even the poster named Clone would be satisfied with their environmental track record and diligence.

got CAU?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:52 - ID#253246)
Has anyone seen the "Contrarian"
It appears stocksite has dropped William Fleckenstein does anyone
know if he is on another site ****************

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:52 - ID#267344)
Aragorn - clone lives!! and hears all...
- c

(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:56 - ID#329186)
tolerant 1 (Merrill Lynch without pants 18:35
Well put . WB buys the silver between july 1997 Feb 98 no one had a clue and as he has followed the Silver market with patience than most it would require something else to move him and it would be most unlikely to have a menu i.e put shorts delivered lets hope M Lynch get hit

go physical


(Thu Jul 09 1998 18:59 - ID#410198)
You guys want to see a great Silver chart bases Indian/Pakky/currency...its self explanatory..

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:03 - ID#255151)
Monkey Goes on Rampage in Japan

Has abducted small pets. Authorities warn "don't make eye contact" if you encounter this monkey--

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:14 - ID#373284)
CPU@AU, Namaste' uh huh...and another teeny, tiny detail they do not tell you...
From what I have read...HE PAID CASH...uh huh...HE OWNS HIS SILVER OUTRIGHT...I love that guy...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:15 - ID#20976)
Nostradamus and the price of gold in 1999
My brother was visiting from a recent exploration of a gold site in Northern California he hopes to purchase ( he owns several that he mines ) , and had only good things to say about gold. So I dragged his a$$ to the local library, to a$$ay the truth if possible, from a long range gold chart in the CRB Commodity Yearbook, page 113.
Before I disclose my observations, let me say I've been studying chart formations and price projections since 1981 with a fair degree of accuracy and profit. Now in studying this chart, I saw a long term trend line from 1970 through a August 1976 bottom and a January 1993 bottom, which broke bigtime at a price of $380 in January of 1997, and hasn't looked back. Using trendline projections, which have proved extremely accurate for me ( requiring admittedly some artistic skill for execution and interpretation ) , I observed a convergence of three extrapolated trendlines closing at $160 per ounce, ( US Dollars ) in the year 1999. ( Some short with gold at $392, huh? )
Now the year 1999 brings to mind the prognostications of one Nostradamus, a reknowned French physician and court-sponsored prophet, who predicted, according to our contemporary interpreters, a great world war by the end of this millenium. This prophecy collaborates with the Kondratioff wave theory ( the Russian economist's name may be spelled wrong ) which has correlated major wars over the last two hundred years. These wars seem to alternate between "popular and unpopular", occurring every 27 years or so ( eg. 1918, 1942,1970, 1999, etc. ) Accordingly, we are due for a "popular" war in 1999 when people would be depressed by deflation, desperately need food and clothing, thus willingly line up for battle and irrational propaganda ( Evidence to wit: WWII Germany ) . This WWIII need not take place with nuclear weaponry, but on a biological level ( such as with an airborne AIDS virus or missile-borne Anthrax ) or in cyberspace, knocking out communications ala Pagenet and casting us into another dark age. Assuredly, this would cause a significant bounce in the price of gold from $160, as paper currency would be worthless. From the trivial pursuit department, Nostradamus died leaving 3700 gold coins to his wife and children, which I presume were each a troy ounce, making him in today's terms, a millionaire.
To present the other side of the argument, my brother stated that my somber prediction was in dollar terms and that the dollar will fall in
value vs the dollar price of gold. This adjustment to the value of the US currency is about to start and the chart prediction will
never be realized.
What do you think???.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:20 - ID#242280)
Nostradamus and the price of gold in 1999
My brother was visiting from a recent exploration of a gold site in Northern California he hopes to purchase ( he owns several that he mines ) , and had only good things to say about gold. So I dragged his a$$ to the local library, to a$$ay the truth if possible, from a long range gold chart in the CRB Commodity Yearbook, page 113.
Before I disclose my observations, let me say I've been studying chart formations and price projections since 1981 with a fair degree of accuracy and profit. Now in studying this chart, I saw a long term trend line from 1970 through a August 1976 bottom and a January 1993 bottom, which broke bigtime at a price of $380 in January of 1997, and hasn't looked back. Using trendline projections, which have proved extremely accurate for me ( requiring admittedly some artistic skill for execution and interpretation ) , I observed a convergence of three extrapolated trendlines closing at $160 per ounce, ( US Dollars ) in the year 1999. ( Some short with gold at $392, huh? )
Now the year 1999 brings to mind the prognostications of one Nostradamus, a reknowned French physician and court-sponsored prophet, who predicted, according to our contemporary interpreters, a great world war by the end of this millenium. This prophecy collaborates with the Kondratioff wave theory ( the Russian economist's name may be spelled wrong ) which has correlated major wars over the last two hundred years. These wars seem to alternate between "popular and unpopular", occurring every 27 years or so ( eg. 1918, 1942,1970, 1999, etc. ) Accordingly, we are due for a "popular" war in 1999 when people would be depressed by deflation, desperately need food and clothing, thus willingly line up for battle and irrational propaganda ( Evidence to wit: WWII Germany ) . This WWIII need not take place with nuclear weaponry, but on a biological level ( such as with an airborne AIDS virus or missile-borne Anthrax ) or in cyberspace, knocking out communications ala Pagenet and casting us into another dark age. Assuredly, this would cause a significant bounce in the price of gold from $160, as paper currency would be worthless. From the trivial pursuit department, Nostradamus died leaving 3700 gold coins to his wife and children, which I presume were each a troy ounce, making him in today's terms, a millionaire.
To present the other side of the argument, my brother stated that my somber prediction was in dollar terms and that the dollar will fall in
value vs the dollar price of gold. This adjustment to the value of the US currency is about to start and the chart prediction will
never be realized.
What do you think???.

Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug
(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:28 - ID#432214)
Bill2j & Gold Shorting
Yesterday you stated that gold had been a lousy investment since 1980 and then asked if anyone knew how much an investment in gold in 1980 was worth today. Today, you have not only figured out how to do basic calculations but now you want to short gold.

Don't short the golden relic, the bull will be upset when it gets back on its feet. And you risk getting gored.

Go Gold..

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:31 - ID#28767)
I'll bet thats why the monkey is so pissed off.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:39 - ID#287129)
Wall Street: price-fixing allegations
On the ABC-News network ( radio ) , there was a blurb about some alleged price-fixing against some well-known names on Wall Street. Apparently the SEC is investigation some price manipulation. Some internet news regarding same can be found at:

Question: If there is truth to the alleged price manipulation of stocks, isn't is also possible that there could be similar price manipulation against the PM's and PM stocks to keep the "shorts" in business?

If this blows up into mainstream media, what impact might that have on:
1. DOW
3. Precious metals and commodoties


(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:44 - ID#344259)
Orphan re your post
Quite a statement. Hard to argue with ( personal interpretation ) but possible. How about emailing me? Thanx, Charlie

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:47 - ID#288369)
@T#1.......proposed sign at the entry of Kitco Cafe.........
"No brains, no service."

Daughter reports you have quite the boooooming voice!.....many thanks to you for watching over this prized one. muchas garcias ( cabo spelling ) ... ( gulp&puff ) !!!!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:50 - ID#431366)
The shadow of things to come - before Y2K torpedoes it all
Currency was a created as a note of credit of the existence of gold. Banks and the use of checks became the note of credit of the existence of currency. The next step in this evolution has already arrived in the form of e-money. We now use electronic data as a note of credit for the existence of a bank account.

Democracy and Government Control of the Money Supply

"Cybercash is a move from paper money to electronic bits, completing the shift from the gold standard to a symbolic paper standard to, as Alvin Toffler coined it in PowerShift, the super symbolic standard where money is merely a representation in computer memory of a governments standing in the world economy."

Another standard bytes the dust:

Digital Cash and Monetary Freedom at:

(Thu Jul 09 1998 19:58 - ID#253246)
Adrian big on NEM & nevada's

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:01 - ID#210114)
Yet the Price of Gold Still falls.....
LONDON, July 9 ( Reuters ) - Gold moved lower in Europe on Thursday with the softening yen after initially rising on news that a senior Bundesbank council member saw no reason for EU central banks to sell part of their gold.

Gold was last quoted at $291.40/$291.90 an ounce, down from Thursday's New York close of$293.00/$293.50.

Dealers said gold received an early boost when Bundesbank council member Edgar Meister said he saw no reason to expect EU central banks to sell off portions of their gold reserves.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:01 - ID#373284)
STUDIO_R, Namaste'
For me a privilegeI told ya I had a voice like a tubaGulp back at ya!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:06 - ID#373284)
grizz, Namaste' Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa came over for dinner this evening and we
all gold...awaken to the sound of international trust...
GOLD...SILVER...PLATINUM...PALLADIUM...digi-cash ain't nothin but some more me the value...the age of the confidence game is over...


(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:10 - ID#431366)
We can run but we can't hide.
"This paper first reviews the notions of identification, anonymity and pseudonymity, and the threats that identified data and transactions represent to individuals and to societies. This leads into an assessment of multi-purpose identification and inhabitant registration schemes."
And for more info:

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:11 - ID#253246)
Chas *****are you related to CAU CEO

If you could scratch my palm with a little inside info on the
Q2 production & earnings of CAU so I can decide on whether
to buy some more it would be appreciatred

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:13 - ID#254112)
EURO/Gold Reserve Policy
A new and extremely exciting idea to the new ECB gold policy is published at under ANOTHER. In a short message the person called Friend of ANOTHER explained the following.
I'm expressing my own understanding in my own words.

The ECB controls all gold sales of member banks. The ECB will give permission only to sell gold by member CBs to the central ECB for EUROS.

That way, gold sales will and can happen, might be even welcome by the ECB, because the ECB will want to buy gold from the member central banks for EUROS. During the three year transition period, when the member CBs still exist and care for their national currencies, the EUROs which they buy for gold can be used as a reserve currency.

This is an idea very bullish for gold and that's of course the reason why it turns me on. I must admit, I'm a very one sided gold optimist and I selectively like to hear pro gold arguments. I definitely do not enjoy chart interpretations where some dum lines meet at low levels.

Politically, any devaluation of gold relative to the dollar would indicate that the "thin air faction" in the financial oligarchy expands their domination of the world financial markets. Can mankind, all independent peoples of the world, stay stupid for ever, and even increase their stupidity? I just cannot believe it.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:14 - ID#329186)
Tolerant 1 Paid cash 19:14 Re WB and silver
Yes he did pay cash it is very interesting to read his story

While talking of banks I now realise what a mistake I made 10 years ago during a conversation with a banker I said Banks are really up market Pawn Brokers I owe The pawn brokers an apology

but physical



Bully Beef
(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:22 - ID#259282)
Dear Mooney ... Forgive me my 7:16.
You may not know how it is to run out of things to say on the subject and I had to go. What I was trying to say ( and did a poor job ) is this. I bought the gold fund. I lost money on it. I believe it will go up.However not enough to sell all the funds that have done well. Even tho I am bullish on gold I wouldn't ( and no one would listen to me anyhow ) sell funds that are doing well to buy more gold cause I have risked enough there already. I do not have the expertise to trade nor the amount of money that could make multiple trades profitable. I am someone who hopes to get 8 to 10 % per annum on my retirement fund so that I can enjoy a life style of a trip south every year a new car every 5 years, an insulated workshop for home projects ,a boat, motor ,fishing gear,an education for my child and whatever my wife wants so she won't make me suffer.
My experience with a broker at Richardson's Greenshields was as close as I ever got to trading and frankly 80 bucks to buy and 80 to sell was too much. I am a tight wad. That is the only reason I have savings. So just ignor what I said about brokers. However...I don't think that at my miniscule understanding level of trading it would be wise to do E-Trades without advice.
Now that I have been clear take your best shot. Give it to me doctor... I can take it!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:25 - ID#210114)
No news is good news.
Stuttgart--Jly 9--Bundesbank directorate member Edgar Meister said today he
did not share market concerns that euroland central banks could sell large
amounts of gold after the European Central Bank takes responsibility for
monetary policy on Jan 1. By Rainer Buergin, Bridge News, Story .11048

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:26 - ID#344259)
I'm trying to track R. Devoto down to find out. Haven't heard yet but I'll let you know. I do have the same interests- maybe???

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:32 - ID#210114)
1967 Kennedy Half Dollar
Anyone: What are these worth?? Face value or a little more??

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:39 - ID#228128)
If it ends up true that Buffet takes a loss on his silver investment, it kind of makes you wonder if there isn't an easier way to turn a buck than in PMs. Nah!!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:42 - ID#210235)
@Dear Auric
Thank you so much for posting that monkey article, which I had bypassed as unimportant on the news listings. Such a small matter, but it says so much.

I'm sure that I'm not the only reader here who remembers when articles and documentaries abounded ( was it 10 -12 years ago? ) about the monkeys in Japan. There were hundreds, even thousands around villages which were fed daily and revered as an important part of the divine and natural world.

Today we see the monkey getting the bad rap. They are a pest who prey upon the poor humans. Soon their numbers will be culled. This is very telling. Very.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:48 - ID#7568)

The biggest of the technical trend following funds is reputed to be short something on the order of 60 million ounces of silver.

Which brokerage firm has a very tight relationship with this fund, and has heaploads of client money invested in it? That's right, its ML.

Ted A. may well be right that a big player is trapped in silver. The problem is, it just might be the guy wearing the ML T-shirt.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:53 - ID#147201)
In all history, the secret nature of money, the magic of money, the fundamentals of money and anything else there is a primary concept that has lain hidden. BEYOND THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. Aragorn 111 has a well developed expression of this in his 7/9 18:13 post. I call this Greshams Law # 2. It appears from good documentation in history that the most basic part of money is the population that deals with it. I propose that from about 2000 BC till 1900 the population was more than 80% illiterate. This is an historical period for the foundation of money. 99% of the printed word about money has concentrated on the literate portion of the population and read by only the literate. Gresham's Law , about the late 1700,s was expressed when illiteracy was still the largest portion of the population. He did not invent it, he only expressed a very good observation. Hundreds of years before there is evidence of the same activity. Even in the time of Croesus, who debased the first time, the population recognized a difference. For the time being, I will give my experience and finish later. I have traded around the Southern Appalachians, gold and crafts etc. I know bunches of people that I am sure can't read , but I don't know any that can't make change for a $10 bill. See ya later

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:57 - ID#288369)
@truth and beauty...........


(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:57 - ID#43349)
Very astute observation there. The facts are that silver has been shoeing a life of it's own, absoultely refusing to decline to any great extent as gold and the yen do.

This makes it very uncomfortable on the shorts.

Now we have strange rumors coming from the same short country that used to supply the unsubstantiated rumors when they played their overnight games in the gold market. This coupled with a somewhat large increase in Comex stocks. It surely looks like someone is stirring the pot.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 20:58 - ID#252123)
Quick test
If anyone can see this... then a Very Big Thanks goes to Bart!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:07 - ID#412286)
Buffet is mostly in stks and making a fortune. The idea he would be panicking over his paltry metals investment is tripe. The model is under stress and will soon bear JUST collapse and hatred of the system that be. Only with collapse will the pols survival be connected with individuals problems nightmare to big money Thus THEY try to forestall the collapse. THe happytimes express continues for now. In the 1930s J Goebbels named Germany "the land of the smile". Where is Carville?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:09 - ID#374204)
Silverbaron - when you return
I'm still very interested in the legalities/history of

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:13 - ID#434108)
TIMING - everything-? One tool of timing reviewed. Is there another Gold bear-market brewing ?
"Timing is Everything"...yes?/no? .
#1. Cotton
#2. Orange-juice
#3. Gold

I've made many costly mistakes in life...& here at,
as well as in market-timing research/investing/assisting.

A-long the way, I've found many lucrative rewards:
some.... - material,
others... - of 'another realm'.

Focussing on the 'material':
I remain convinced that charts and charting, when wisely used,
do indeed provide -
"thousands of words."

I've posted many times here at kitco, the importance I believe resides in Commitment of Traders data/charts/patterns/ relation to prices.

I do not believe, however, that COT data/charts are a 'single-branch',
that any trader or investor can rely on. ( -There is none. )

Nevertheless, there are many times when a "classic/ideal" ...
buy signal
sell signal,

is offered/revealed...... in Commitment of Traders ( COT ) data/chart-patterns.

Usually, most 'students' of this very powerful tool, simply do not understand how to use it -- sort of like a 'chain-saw' in the hands of a "beginner" whose never understood the power, and danger, of such a tool.

( I include myself as having been the first & foremost 'beginner' in the use of this powerful tool. )

Using COT data/charts/patterns, & "my" 'model' of interpreting them,
the following investment timing opportunities would have been signalled:

#1. A Bull-Market Example
The Cotton market, from Dec. 97 to Apr 98 exhibited ideal/classic bull/buy opportunity:
a. As prices were working their way lower, ( simultaneously )
b. So too were the net-long ( buying ) values - for Commmercials; thus
c. Setting the foundation for the bull-move/-market which has followed.
( -I've previously provided ( in kitco posts ) a detailed explanation of my interpretation of why this happens to be the way it almost always works out -- a bull market's foundation formed -- :
whenever this pattern of lower values for both prices & for net-buying/Longs by the Commmercials/COT occurs. )

2. A Bear Market Example
The Orange-juice market,from Dec. 97 to May '98, exhibited the opposite pattern of prices in relation to COT components, including, in this case,
both Commercials and Large Speculators. Large Speculators almost always "mirror" Commercials, in reverse.

Thus in bull-markets that are topping-out, it is often most effective to compare prices,
to COT/Large Speculators' chart-patterns/ order to identify the unfolding 'sell-opportunity', or 'window for shorting'......that is 'brewing' a bull-market reveals itself to be "topping-out".

In bear-markets that are bottoming-out, it is often most effective to compare prices, to ( COT- ) Commercials' chart-patterns/
order to identify the unfolding 'buying-opportunity', or 'foundation',
of opportunity for 'going long' ..... that is 'brewing'.

In bull-markets that are completing/ending, the focus might best be placed on the "Large-Speculators", - one of 3 components
of the COT. These are the "drivers", the 'impetus', behind almost all bull-market moves, in any market.
When they begin to reduce their 'net-longs', as prices work higher,
it is usually a sign of an impending top in that market.
The Orange-juice market mapped out just such a 'topping-out' pattern,
from Dec. '97 to May '98.

"Commercials", on the other-hand/in contrast, are often the most useful patterns to watch as dropping prices, go lower -- until defining ...
a bottom.

as final price lows approach...when a bear-market is mapping out an end to itself....and giving evidence of a foundation that is building,
for a new bull market in the making....
this will almost always be identified by lower prices, simultaneously with lower values for the net-Long/buying ... by Commercials/COT.
( See Cotton market, last 8 mos.' data/charts. )

Again, the Cotton market of the last 8 months confirms this;
offering an excellent example of how & when the COT chart patterns in relation to prices, can be effectively used for outstanding trading/investing opportunities ( -on the bullish/long side ) .

And again, the Orange-juice market of the last 8 months confirms the bear-market/shorting opportunity, that can be provided by charting COT with Price, in almost any investment market.
As OJ's pattern of the last 8 mos. indicates, when Large-Speculators' net-long/buying values consistently decline over time, while prices are
rising....there is very likely - an impending/unfolding bear market ( -chapter ) ...that is likely to be brewing.

#3. Current Gold market
In at least one or two recent posts at kitco, I've referred to the fact that most/more recent COT data indicates that Commmercials have 're-appeared'
at substantially higher net-long values,
than anything seen in the last 8 to 9 months.
This, potentially, opens up a whole new bear-market chapter for prices.
July '97 to Mar '98...
the Commmercials/COT pattern of lower net-buying as gold prices worked lower,
was an extremely bullish pattern...potentially.
( --never swing on a single-branch; whether COT, or any other indicator/technical-charting instrument/tool ) .

However, since recent/new COT data indicates:
Commercials are buying Gold at new net-long values/amounts/percentages....
that have -
exceeded their highest net-long/buying values of Mar '98;
and are challenging their
net-long values of the prior two quarters,
going back to July '97.

And this COULD mean that the stage has been set:
for a whole new chapter of declining
net-long/buying values for Commercials, over several months...

as Gold prices correspondingly/ lower...

This 'ideal/classic' COT pattern with Gold ...
could very well unfold....

( ( just has it did in the Cotton market ) ) ....

before the Gold market, can build ...
it's next base/foundation,
for a new bull market.

Caveat: somewhere above I referred to "classic" &/or "ideal"
model -- for the COT pattern.....
when used as a tool of timing ( -charting/technical research ) .

There are always variations on the theme,
and exceptions to the rule.

I sincerely intend that my comments here
may offer some usefulness,
or perchance 'light', or clarity or perspective....
in the often elusive game...
of trading & investment timing....

So I offer my humble remarks above, on behalf
of all those who sincerely find themselves
interested in the school of hard-knocks...
of the market-place,
of investments,
of life.

May all those students among us, who are sincerely dedicated
to market timing, economic study, and political insight;
also, be equally committed to
social justice
human dignity

for all of human-kind.

David Blair Macrory

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:15 - ID#411112)
Spoke ...a little more .85c


(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:16 - ID#210235)
@another amazing fact
I am both surprised and delighted to see gold holding up so well under the onslaught of bad news. On the downside of this, I fear it may be telling us that the stagflation may be soon upon us, if not already here. The sharp deflation in several key commodities ( including hi-tech items which have become a commodity ) has resulted in a rapid shutdown of supply, which may soon outpace the decline in demand due to recessions. This collapse of supply is threatening, in oil, computer chips, and other areas, to create a dearth of supply in the coming periods ( 4th quarter perhaps ) . Sharp deflations such as we have seen can create this overreaction resulting in sudden swings back into inflation. Especially if any of the small insurgencies in the Middle east, asia, or Russia break out into major wars, we will see a sharp, sudden rise in the price of oil. Expect rapid, unexpected, and unsustained price swings over the next several quarters.

I have just received notice that our phone provider, which has lowered basic rates by a hair, is requesting rate increases of 150 to 400% for every little service, from checking if a line is really busy to connecting you to your party. Nickel and diming customers to death. A real hyperinflation, that. Expect volatility, the calm is over. If, as I suspect, we are well into the collapse of a secular great wave of inflation, all hell will continue to break out.

Time to reconsider Robert Prechtor, who saw it coming, James Dale Davidson, who gave lots of warning, and David Hackett Fischer, who explained what was going on. It has been a slow process, but anyone who follows global events can no longer doubt that the long-term secular wave of price inflation has broken. This is NOT an elliot wave. It is visible on the surface, just for looking at prices. It may well have broken a decade ago. It is a 50 - 100 year process before the next phase.

Our thanks to Tolerant1 and Donald. Who saw it coming and never failed to tell it as they saw it.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:17 - ID#434108)
Committment of Traders data/charts - sources of this info.
Pinnacle Data Corp. ( NY ) ;
and/or ( -Commondity Trend Service, FL )

can provide you this data/charts.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:24 - ID#374204)
sam@12:45 - thanks for the clue
on safe passage thru the calamitous times ahead.
It turns out that I've a small collection of old
US silver mintage-been collecting since childhood.
My relatives have always given them to me as gifts.

Maybe I'll just grow the collection since the
history is fun anyway.

tolerant1's gifts of coins to children maybe not
such a bad idea. It seems to have worked out for me.
Still a kid at 45.

Best Regards ( and now I know what numismatic means )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:26 - ID#434108)
URL's for Commitment of Traders data

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:38 - ID#218251)
Could the news possibly be any worse? The bottom is near!
Shorts, WB trapped, panicked about his silver, foreign currency rates relative to PM prices in dollars. I don't know about you guys, but I think I'm going to buy more RIGHT NOW!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:42 - ID#401460)
U.S. economy was less inflation-prone
Thursday July 9, 9:29 pm Eastern Time

U.S. economy not subject to deflation-Ferguson

ATLANTA, July 9 ( Reuters ) - Federal Reserve Governor Roger Ferguson said on Thursday he saw no threat of
deflation in the U.S. economy.

When asked if there was a risk of deflation, Ferguson said: ``It's highly unlikely. In fact, the answer is, No.''

``I don't have a concern that we are in a deflationary period,'' he said following a speech at the Federal Reserve
Bank of Atlanta.

When asked whether the U.S. economy was less inflation-prone than in the past, Ferguson said: ``We should be
open to that possibility. But I don't believe the evidence is fully there yet.''

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:46 - ID#210127)
@Kapex...Bottom Picking is...

Dangerious stuff...imho...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:47 - ID#373284)
I just can't take it......................................

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:51 - ID#373284)
THA WAS NOT THE for the humor...priceless...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:52 - ID#290287)
Hope I didn't put you completely off gold. It seemed to me that junk silver fit your requirements a little better and you might want to buy some before buying gold. I'm guessing that junk bags have been searched repeatedly for numismatics. But your childhood collection probably contains coins with some or maybe a lot of collector value. Check it out, or at least keep them separate from any junk silver you might buy.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:54 - ID#210235)
Time to stop reading the news awhile and go pull gold out of little neighbors' ears. Namast.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:56 - ID#210235)
You actually posted that news story by mistake!
Chaos and flux abound. Namast.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 21:56 - ID#373284)
Prometheus, Namaste' To be fair to Donald...he does his own calculations and
such, plus a ton of research and reading. I have read some on various subjects and merely agreed with the thoughts. The Great Reckoning and very recently in an issue of J. Taylor's newsletter...a most convincing case.

Those that think you can inflate out of inflation...well...I feel they are gravely mistaken. I guess that's what make horse races...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:11 - ID#218251)
Xanadu....As a contrarian, when the news is such, and it looks like this,
I don't consider it bottom fishing. If I listened to most I would be selling my Hecla Mining and trying to short! We are very close if not already there. I'am not a short term trader.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:14 - ID#218251)
$xau.x,.... 3 years weekly,.... then get chart....Stochastics

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:17 - ID#20748)
Bundesbank council member Edgar Meister comments and says
no reason to expect EU CBs to sell their gold and demand for gold may be increased when vats tax is removed.

Finance - Precious Metals Report for Thursday, July
09, 1998

Your personalized e-mail news, brought to you by InfoBeat
To modify your profile, click here.

COMEX gold and silver futures prices ended lower Thursday as the
US dollar strengthened again, but NYMEX platinum and palladium
continued to recover with the lack of Russian supplies still
providing support for prices.

"The news Wednesday about how the ECB ( European Central Bank ) will
effectively control European central bank gold reserves from now
on was positive for gold, but the renewed strength of the dollar
against yen in particular continues to imply weak demand for
precious metals in Asia," said Carlos Perez-Santalla, a COMEX
floor trader with Hudson River Futures in New York.

The ECB confirmed Wednesday that gold would make up about 15% of
the new central bank's reserves and that the ECB would bring the
reserve operations of the national European central banks,
including gold, under its control, pursuant to Article 31 of the
ESCB ( European System of Central Banks ) statutes.

In other news, Bundesbank council member Edgar Meister said on
Thursday he sees no reason to expect EU central banks to sell off
portions of their gold reserves.

Referring to comments by ECB president Duisenberg on Wednesday,
Meister said Duisenberg's comments signalled that there was no
reason to expect gold sales.

Demand for gold in Europe may also be increased after news
Thursday that European Union legislation to exempt investment gold
traded anywhere in the 15-nation bloc from value-added tax will
now be adopted after Italy formally lifted its objection at a
meeting in Brussels on Wednesday.

( Reuters 03:59 PM ET 07/09/98 ) For the full text story, see

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:22 - ID#288369)
@sam....on second thought!!!
Sally & KoKo

Mr. Mick
(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:24 - ID#345321)
Grizz, your 15:47 - what good does your silver do you if you a) have to bury it......
b ) can't use it in public? Black market scenario?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:24 - ID#344259)
Studio R
Thanx a bunch for coin reference. This could lead somewhere, Charlie

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:26 - ID#333126)
Buffett caught with silver?? hahahahaha... yeah right
He paid cash, he moved his silver far away from COMEX prying eyes, he was the richest guy in the USA until the Bill Gates phenomenon. My money's on him being right. Anyone wanna give odds that WB will actually announce a loss on his silver investment?

Tolerant1, a toast to ya ( tequila, as usual )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:27 - ID#252127)

Why the hell doesn't Buffet come out and repudiate this Merrill Lynch bullcrap. or is he worried about his paper portfolio?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:28 - ID#20748)
Carnage in Asia

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:30 - ID#288369)
Here's some luck of the dumb.....about 12 years ago, I walked into a little coin shop in Bethany, Ok. and the old feller sold me a small bag of 2, 4 and 8 real Spanish coins, circa 1790-1810, for slightly over bullion price. I got 'em out tonight to look at 'em...unbelievable. There are deals out there, if you just prowl around a bit. Always carry a bit o' cash with ya' ( as you well know ) .....enjoy YOUR comments, charlie.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:30 - ID#347457)
OK Folks, Show Your Colours!
It makes me wonder at times like this ...

All of you who said "Gold did not do so bad today, considering xyz ..." - how much money you have in gold ( and gold related ) investment versus watching it from the sidelines.

All of you who said "gold is the long term investment", can you explain when this became "the thing" instead of "gold is the hedge for bad times?"

I think that we are sending mixed messages and it would be nice to know "what is the position of people who make a specific statement"

For some of old posters it's clear ( at least to Kitco members who are around for a while and know the poster's position ) , however some statements come out of the blue, and it makes me wonder how much of it is backed up by the real investment, the real understanding, or just wishful thinking of investor loosing his money and trying to justify "holding on loosing investment"

JMCM - "Just Me - a Curious Mind" ;- )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:41 - ID#373284)
ravenfire, jack, Namaste...gulp back at ya...regarding Buffet...Hmmmmm. I do not
think that Mr. Buffett would give Merrill Lynch the sweat off his... his........nose...

Why should he lower his standards...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:42 - ID#411112) you know how much money Wall Street spent selling the concept ...Iam in it for the long
term"......those who use that phrase have been taken in by media far as my portfolio goes.....if I were to sell I would break even,then again I bought for when the SUSHI hits the fan..........HE WHO OWNS THE GOLD CALLS THE SHOTS

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:47 - ID#227238)
Goldfevr: On the matter of your COT charts; do you maintain the charts by hand or do you have a commercial source for them?? It wouldn't be too difficult to keep them in a spreadsheet but then it's also easier to let someone else do them. Eh?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:47 - ID#347457)
If "HE WHO OWNS THE GOLD CALLS THE SHOTS", we were making some bad calls lately to let the DOW guys beat us ;- )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:47 - ID#288369)
@Buffett vs. Merrill Lynch.............
Mr. Warren Buffett has had crabs bigger than Merrill or Lynch.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 22:49 - ID#227238)
Goldfevr: Oops. Should have scrolled further. I see you did post the source for COT charts.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:00 - ID#373284)
robnoel_A, Namaste' In addition, how nice of them to change the tax rules so the
majority had to stay in for 18 months...clay pigeons eh...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:00 - ID#252127)

In such a war standards have little value, you destroy the enemy and gloat in your victory, as they would as the victor and thus far those b**stards are winning.

You see it in the current fall of the Indian and Pakistan currencies and the medias eventual cry ( lie ) that these poor victims will sell their precious metals.

Lurker 777
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:02 - ID#317247)
No more excuses! I have been posting this system since last December and no one should be loosing more than 5% of you hard earned money investing in Gold. I have covered my ASSests and best of all I take POSSESSION of the Gold.
At today's closing spot prices ( 291.30 ) : Buy 100 Philharmonic coins ( 4.7%over spot ) for $30,499.11 or $304.99 per oz. and buy one December 1999 290 put ( 100 oz. contract ) for $880. ( )

Total cost per coin with put option is $313.79 each.
If Gold drops below $290 per oz. you can sell your coins for 3.3% over spot ( ) and your downside risk is LESS THAN 5%. Gold has to be higher than $313.79 to make money but you have until December 1999!
The Austrian Philharmoiker one oz. 999.9% pure Gold coins have the highest monetary face value of any Gold bullion coin ( 2000 Shilling or $155.00 U.S. ) and are the biggest seller in the world. AND as a added bonus, if the Gold price were to collapse the coins could be redeemed for their face value.

Has anyone tried this system? Does anyone know of a more conservative way to invest in real Gold?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:03 - ID#431366)
Mr. Mick - yes it would be black market
And you best not let a little 1/10oz eagle
show up in the change you pull out of your pocket.
One little slip of gold's glint and the jig's up.
The reward for turning you in would be an incentive.
You get stopped for rolling through a stop sign
and they ask to see your
Drivers License
National ID card - possibly same as above
Vehicle Registration
And please empty your pockets into this tray here.
What's this - a gold coin!
Officer to dispatch - request a backup.
Might you have any weapons in your vehicle?

You see the tiny bit of gold
was just as much cause to search your vehicle
as a joint or aroma of marijuana would have been.

From there it is an easy step to accusing you of
being in a militia, stockpiling illegal weapons,
and hoarding - more than two cans of beef stew!

Dave in CO
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:03 - ID#229103)
I'm in as a hedge against bad times which, I think will begin no later than 01/01/00. Don't know if that's considered "the long-term".

About 2/3 of available capital in nat. res. investments: approx. 1/3 gold, 1/3 silver, 1/3 oil and gas. Haven't sold yet, so haven't lost anything yet.

Business prog/analyst/DBA since the 1960's. Moving out of the city in 10 days.

Crystal Ball
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:03 - ID#287367)
@ silver BULLS

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:04 - ID#377196)
Go Back to Basics
1. Warren Buffett did not follow the silver market for 30 years
before making an investment to buy at $5.50 and sell at $6.50. He
himself said he always buys for the long term. Many of his investments
gain 1000% to 2000% . Silver can do that. And will.

2. Why does one need junk silver coins? I have them because in
October 1987 during the crash the lacal grocery stores would not
accept either checks or credit cards for the purchase of any food items!!

3. This was at an up scale place but it was true over much of Seattle.

4. And when the dollar is falling and there are finacial problems
from Y2K, possible riots etc. It may be that fiat paper money will not
be wanted either. Your coins, however, have value because of the silver
content. They are not a gov't's promise. They don't rely on what mr.
greenspan will do. And what can he do? He can do nothing. And will do
nothing. Just like Japan is doing.

Thanks GD


Crystal Ball
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:05 - ID#287367)
@ silver BULLS
sorry about the premature ejaculation. :- )

Paul Sarnoff says buy HL Dec98 $5 calls. He is very bullish on silver, but feels the premiums on Comex silver are too high

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:07 - ID#432112)
Alberich...You'd better believe it, but that doesn't mean go won't go up!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:07 - ID#57232)
More yesterday on ChinaMissleSatGate
All: Testimony to Congress: Much more military technology transfer to China than satellite technology. ( From Matt Drudge )

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:11 - ID#431366)
You'll get no sympathy from the masses.
Because the masses have never seen gold coin used for trade.
Gold is perceived by them ( us ) to be owned by the priviledged few,
by the wealthy, by the haves rather than the have nots
( who may only have a few family heirlooms that are gold ) .
Possessing Gold makes you a target of the dispossessed.
And they outnumber and outgun those who hold Gold.

One way out of the above pickle is to get Gold
back into circulation so all have us have some.
That way we stand with you rather than against you.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:14 - ID#347457)
@Dave in CO
we are not so different ( in occupation and investment )
It still makes me edgy when I am loosing on all of it ( oil and precious metals ) but, just like you I am holding, so before I sell there is no real loss. Damn, I hope it won't become the real one!! ;- )

Lurker 777
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:17 - ID#317247)
Hmmmm - LOOSER =

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:17 - ID#43460)
India: Warning contains Inflammatory Comments;
IMHO, I think that it is pure 100% media hype when you hear that India is a poor benighted third world country. Sure there are poor people there but there have been poor people since time began. As Jane Fonda pointed out there are still poor people even in the great worker's paradise, Merka.

I believe that any enquiring person can pretty quickly document a high degree of Indian civilization going back thousands of years. And one of the longstanding civilized traditions of that culture is to honor the women with doweries of 'wedding jewelry', gold and silver in both massive and filigree forms. IMHO the Indians won't start selling their silver when prices go up to $6.00 US, but they might stop buying US trade goods.

Two Indian Newspapers ( I've seen some bullish gold/silver comments in them recently ) :

Mike Stewart
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:22 - ID#270253)
Warren Buffett doesn't panic
The only bad ( ? ) investment that I can remember Berkshire Hathaway making was a large prefered share issue in U.S. Air. They wrote it down a few years later as a mistake, and it then took off. I think that they did very well in the end. The Solomon Bros. position worked out well too after a few years. They seem to have a window of 5 - 10 years.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:22 - ID#377196)
It is very discomforting to be losing on everything. I also own some
of Paul Stevens Contrarian Fund. He has lost on everything also.
In his latest up date June 5th he stated that he did not believe that
the world was going the way of deflation and that the resource/gold
markets were the most hated groups he has ever seen and the most
underpriced compared to their real value. In other words BUY .

Thanks, GD

Mike Stewart
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:31 - ID#270253)
Oil and Gas Anyone?
I must admit that the contrarian in me has forced a buy order in the oil and gas mutual fund arena. I have been lookin at Cliff's Drilling and Energy Service as beat up bargains for my partnership. ( No buy orders yet ) I even bought some tech stocks a couple of weeks ago. It's not just gold for me.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:33 - ID#373284)
Jack, My perception is that WJC has weakened the US so badly that nations
around the globe one by one are going to start cheering default...then watch the fireworks...I hope WJC gets everything he deserves from the American people...because they are the ones he bent over...once the market turns down and it will...they will have his worthless hide...

Count on it...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:36 - ID#373284)
Oh yeah...and the billion dollars that does not exist which is being applied to the
anti-drug campaign...ah,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,useless...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:41 - ID#190411)
I tried your idea of giving PM to children. Actually, it was to their teachers, along with their usual end-of-the-year gifts.
-A very few Morgans, and some one oz'ers.
I don't have the wherewithal to dole out sovereigns, but, I am wondering about the thoughts in the teacher's minds, when they looked at the funny stuff from the 1870's.
Some of the ounce medallions had the mark of the bad boy's company:Monex. ( Just kidding RJ. )
That makes two more that have a trifle in their posession.
This summer I will teach my eleven-year old daughter about the monetary inflation of the late nineteenth century, using silver as the vehicle of inflation.
-Seems rather preposterous in 1998, doesn't it?

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:41 - ID#290287)
I am ordering the Weisenburg CD now. Sally singin' the blues. Cool! I knew you would come through. Thanks!

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:42 - ID#290287)
How do you do that? ( Post just before me. ) ;- )

Gold Dancer
(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:44 - ID#377196)
I agree with you, and I think they already are doing this. This is
what devaluations are all about. Just wait till the people finally
realize what the IMF is really doing. Takings their money and subsidizing
the rich. How many Billions do you think it will take? 200 billlion?
500Billion or several trilllion?

Bill Clinton is riding on thin ice but I somehow think he will make it.

Thanks, GD

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:44 - ID#335190)
"Price-fixing is fraud," @ "The evidence was conclusive."
"Price-fixing is fraud," he said in a telephone interview. "The evidence was so conclusive."


Dozens of Wall Street firms said to be in settlement talks with SEC

The brokerage firms in discussions with the Securities and Exchange Commission include some of Wall Street's biggest names: Merrill Lynch & Co., Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., PaineWebber Group Inc. and Mayer & Schweitzer Inc., part of Charles Schwab Corp. While the case goes back to 1994

The agency also is seeking suspensions from the industry of the 100 or so traders lasting 30 days, 90 days and, in some cases, for life.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:48 - ID#373284)
ERLE, Namaste' I can assure you...I am probably one of the least well off people
that posts here...seriously...I kid you not...but then again...I'm nuts. I can tell you that people never forget the gift...I run into people in the streets, the mall...etc...HEY! How are you doing?...have time for lunch...a soda...whatever?...I say sure...THANK is kind of you.

I bet you felt pretty darn good huh...A Gulp of Reserva to ya! It's fun to be an emissary of the gold and silver standards set forth by our forefathers...yeah buddy...


(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:49 - ID#373284)
sam, Namaste'
see that little hole in the corner up to your left? heh...heh...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:50 - ID#411112)
Miro..I'll take point..:-) had to push my conspiracy button,add your point of 18

month hold, todays big story on all the boys from Wall St.cutting a deal with the SEC..a week after Clinton signed that new telemarketing fraud bill,anyone who calls an investor over 55 and scams/churns them 5 years no question....FYI...all firms that do outbound calling the FBI has the right to get all names and numbers from the phone company,,,,,,hows them eggs

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:51 - ID#57232)
Thoughts about Gold trends - a word of caution
All: We all use gold trends over the last 25 years or so to predict future trends. However, there is little actual price data during deflationary times, with the exception of Canadian gold stock prices before, during and after the great depression. The price of gold was fixed during most of that time, since many currencies were on the gold standard.

I think all would agree that precious metals were great investments after the great depression began.

But my warning is in regard to what happened before the markets crashed. The point is this: We know little of precious metals cyclical price trends in deflationary times, and a great deal about precious metals cyclical price trends in inflationary times. Thus we must steel ourselves not to make analogies from the precious metals price patterns we have from inflationary times, and assume they apply to deflationary times. Perhaps they still apply, perhaps they do not. Perhaps only certain periods in modern gold price patterns apply to deflationary times.

The only fairly solid, modern information we have about gold prices in these rolling deflationary times is from countries that have just had currency crises, such as Indonesia.

To instill some caution in our fellow perpetually bullish gold bugs, just think about the price of oil, which peaked at $25/barrel at the end of 1997, and is now plummeting on monthly charts, now at $13/barrel or less. This drop is far in excess of the recent rise in the price of the US dollar. This is deflationary.

My point is simply to keep most of your powder dry, as the price of gold is not likely to rise significantly for some time, unless we have a world crisis of some kind, such as a war that impedes the flow of oil, or a financial crisis where gold is not sold at fire sale prices.

Gold equity prices only rise due to increased profit margins, either from an ( inflationary ) increase in the price of gold, or from a ( deflationary ) decrease in the cost of producing it. But, while there is relatively little delay between the rising price of gold and worsening inflation, there is more delay between the rising price of gold and worsening deflation. Commodity prices tend to collapse in the latter situation, and so do equity prices. Gold may actually be sold during this deflationary period by individuals who need it for food and shelter. But, after the immediate deflationary crisis is over, the price of gold will begin to rise -- and rise. And those who have been patient will benefit.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:53 - ID#57232)
Correction to my prior post -- G'Nite all!
Sorry -- misread my graphs. Oil peaked at the end of 1996, not the end of 1997.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:53 - ID#335190)
Progressive Internationalist's @ New economic order
Dollar drifts to record low

TORONTO ( CP ) -- The Canadian dollar plumbed new depths en route to a fresh set of record lows Thursday, prompting calls for higher interest rates amid increasing instability in world money markets.

The loonie sagged to an intra-day record of 67.70 cents US at midday,

"Gold prices have also been coming under pressure, so overall commodity markets are hardly Canadian dollar-friendly."

Asia's troubles continue to spill over into Canada, where the dollar is being hammered on two fronts, economists say.

"In the absence of a policy response from the Bank of Canada, the Canadian dollar is going to remain on a one-way ticket south."

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:54 - ID#373284)
Gold Dancer, Namaste' What you say is true...up until you get to WJC...I think one
of these days a thunderbolt is going to hit the media and he will be history. I speak with a great many people around the country of all races, professions and means...people do not like him and they are starting to wear thin...his BS is getting so deep even his wings won't help him get above it.

And I will tell you is mostly the ones 35 and under that I find to be the most strident...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:56 - ID#190411)
Another point rarely mentioned, is the technological advances in exploration and production costs associated with gold, and other metals.
Look at the costs associated with the better Nevada properties.

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:57 - ID#373284)
robnoel_A, Namaste'
Makes ya think eh...WJC is such a law abiding fella doing the work of the people...yeah...phooey...

(Thu Jul 09 1998 23:59 - ID#190411)
Tell the Canadian gummint to show the currency traders some newly issued debt paper.
It works here in the US, at least for now.