Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:16 - ID#28594)
Fivelighter--it's all about the benchmarks set for the ECU/EURO
at the the EMS agreement

Remember this:
"23.2. The mechanism for the creation of ECUs against gold and US
dollars as provided for by Article 17 of the EMS Agreement..."

Gold is fulfilling one of its traditional roles: as a standard of
measurement, by which--through algorithms convoluted ( you'll accuse me of incoherence once again, and rightly so! {:- ) ) they are moving the currencies into place. Think of gold as the tugboat leading the ships
safely in/out of port.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:24 - ID#335190)
 1997 Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
November 1997
DAILY TELEGRAPH: Russia will soon have more riot troops than military

Alan Philps, the Moscow correspondent, writes an analysis piece today examining how the tax revenue problem is exacerbating what he says is a potential threat to President Boris Yeltsin's tenure -- disaffection in the military about unpaid wages.

Philps writes that dissident General Rev Rokhlin "still sees a chance for the angry soldiery to force President Yeltsin to quit... calling for the military to gather its strength and take to the streets in February in a huge protest.

General Rokhlin says Russia's ground forces are now little bigger than the Interior Ministry troops, whose task is to put down riots and rebellions and act as counterweight to the disgruntled army. Since the ground forces are to be slashed in half, Russia will soon have a situation where it has more riot troops than military."

Philps concludes that the government is "eager to silence" General Rokhlin and his supporters. He writes: "The Kremlin's strategy is to keep the officer corps on the edge of survival, forcing them to moonlight as taxi-drivers, security guards and market stallholders.

They should be too busy making ends meet, and too exhausted and demoralized, to join any protest

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:29 - ID#286230)
Bully Beef
I'm looking for a cottage 2 hours or less from Toronto. Where do you think the best buys still are?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:31 - ID#401460)

September High Grade Copper

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:35 - ID#286230)
Peter Munk's Real Estate Doing OK

TrizecHahn pulls off double play

Gets $500M financing, ratings upgrade from Goldman Sachs

Real Estate Reporter The Financial Post
TrizecHahn Corp. struck a $500-million financing deal with Goldman Sachs Canada Inc. on Friday, the same day the
merchant banker's New York office upgraded its rating on the Toronto-based company's stock.
The Canadian real estate giant was raised to Goldman's "recommended" equity list from "market outperform." Seven other
real estate companies, all U.S.-based, were downgraded.
Shares of TrizecHahn ( TZH/TSE ) , which have climbed over the past few weeks, rose 50 Friday to close at $34.25.
"Coincidence," said Gregory Wilkins, TrizecHahn's president and chief operating officer, when asked about the timing of the
offering and the upgrade. "We have been working with the Goldman research people for months.
"They just finally, after months of work, now made the announcement ... so it really is a coincidence."
Research is independent from investment banking in brokerage houses, he added. "If there's not independence with
research and investment banking, then there's no system.
"Only the absolute cynics of the world would draw that connection."
Some months ago, Goldman's investment wing proposed the financing deal, which is tied to TrizecHahn's purchase of 14
Bell Canada properties. The real estate company initially took a pass on Goldman's plan, opting for a proposal from Newcourt
Capital, one of the businesses of Newcourt Credit Group Inc.
The Newcourt deal fell through just days before it was scheduled to close in March. At the time, Wilkins said TrizecHahn
pulled the offering because it couldn't agree with Newcourt on some details of the issue.
Friday's $500-million deal replaces bridge financing that was quickly put in place so the TrizecHahn-Bell Canada transaction
could proceed.
"Ultimately, the deal that got done with Goldman was not dissimilar to the deal that we were trying to do with Newcourt,"
Wilkins said.
The difference, said Tabb Davis, TrizecHahn's vice-president for corporate communications, is "the other one fell through
and this one isn't a problem."
The innovative financing was issued on a private placement basis. Traditional real estate financing is a mortgage secured by
the property being bought. In this case, the financing is also tied to the leases on the properties, most of which are held by
Bell Canada.
"Our deal is quite unique," Wilkins said. "This is one of the first times that there has been a transaction where the financing
has really looked through to the credit of the underlying tenant."
The Newcourt deal fell through because it misunderstood some of the issues, he added. "Newcourt ... just didn't quite have
the experience that was necessary to ultimately put the deal to bed."
A Newcourt official would not discuss why the offering fell through.
"Newcourt is not in the practice of commenting on our clients' business," said John Sadler, executive vice-president of
corporate affairs of Newcourt Credit.
Goldman upgraded Trizec-
Hahn's stock because of its tighter focus on office properties, its "entrepreneurial and incentivized management," its
aggressive acquisition pace and its willingness to use leverage, said a report written by analyst David Kostin.
The TrizecHahn-Bell Canada deal, announced in January, was for a $750-million acquisition of a portfolio of office
properties, plus one industrial building.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:52 - ID#401460)
Selby (Peter Munk's Real Estate Doing OK)

Peter Munk of ABX right?, Let's see, George Bush ABX, Goldman Sachs, Robert Rubin, Rockefeller, Chase, CitiBank,....Asian crises and Clinton. All the same it would seem.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:56 - ID#335190)
Russia "CREDITOR" nation - Paris Club @ $140 Billion owed ...... London Club ???
( Marks Russia's further integration into global community ) ( 450 )

Denver -- An agreement has been reached in principle that will pave the way for Russia's full membership in the so-called "Paris Club" of creditor nations.

The Paris Club is the group of nations that meets on a case-by-case basis to reach a common approach on rescheduling or reducing the debt service on official loans to their countries.

Following is the text of a fact sheet released June 20 at the annual summit of heads of state and government of the seven leading industrial nations and Russia:

( begin text )

Agreement was reached today between Russia and the Chairman of the Paris Club on principles for full Russia participation sitting as a creditor country. The agreement marks another milestone in Russia's integration in the international economic community.

The Paris Club is the group of major creditor countries that provides debt relief to developing countries that have encountered financial difficulties. The Paris Club members reschedule or, where needed, reduce debt service on loans that had been extended by creditor governments.

At Helsinki, Presidents Clinton and Yeltsin set as a goal achieving Russian participation in Paris Club during 1997. Today an understanding was reached on the basis for Russia's participation. This understanding provides a framework that must be approved by the full Paris Club in the near future.

As part of this understanding Russia has agreed to adjust downward its claims as basis for entry. It will then offer countries same rescheduling or reduction terms as the Paris Club.

Russia's claims on developing countries will be adjusted to take into account the difficulty of valuing Soviet era claims, the relief Paris Club creditors have already provided, the debtor countries' poverty levels and the special circumstances where the Soviet Union was the predominant military creditor.

These adjustments will have to be implemented in negotiations between Russia and individual debtors, but it is now likely that for the heavily indebted poorest countries, particularly in Africa, these adjustments combined with Paris Club treatment will lead to reduction in debtor obligations to Russia by more than 90 percent.

The agreement puts Russia on the same standing as the rest of the Paris Club. It is an important part of this agreement that, consistent with Paris Club rules, Russia will not collect pariah debt while Paris Club is not doing so.

( Paris Club Members: France, Germany, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Spain, United States, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Norway, Netherlands, Untied Kingdom, Sweden, Switzerland. There are a few additional ad hoc member countries. )

 1997 Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.

Russia: Paris Club Welcomes New Creditor Nation

Paris, 17 September 1997 ( RFE/RL ) - Russia was formally admitted to the prestigious Paris Club of creditor nations today. Admission to the group is expected to allow Russia to better coordinate its debt-recovery efforts with other club members. Debts owed to Russia are estimated to be about $140 billion.

Russia's chief debtor nations are Vietnam, Mozambique, Algeria and Yemen. All incurred debts to the Soviet Union before its disintegration at the end of 1991.

Meanwhile, a spokesman for Deutsche Bank said today that Russia and its commercial bank creditors will sign an agreement on October 6 on a repayment schedule for $35 billion in overdue loans and interest.

Deutsche Bank chairs the steering committee of the London Club of commercial creditors, which has been in negotiations with Moscow for almost six years on terms for repaying overdue loans and interest. London Club creditors are owed thousands of millions of dollars by former Communist states that borrowed the money before the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:57 - ID#401460)
Russia Situation Critical
``It's time ... for these negotiations to come to closure,'' White House spokesman Mike McCurry told a news briefing after President Bill Clinton and Russian President Boris Yeltsin spoke by telephone about the state of the Russian economy and the proposed loan package.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 00:59 - ID#286230)
Story is picked up

Anything you e-mail can be used against you

The Financial Post
At this very moment there are sweaty teenagers cruising cyber-space for porn. There are also
thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people around the globe chatting with others through the
wonders of e-mail and chat rooms.
Better close the door and shut down the computer. Libel chill has just reached cyberspace. And, baby,
it's cold outside.
One of the real turn-ons of the Net is that you are invisible if you choose to be. Most people choose a
silly pseudonym when they venture into a chat room. Joe, the acne-pitted 15-year-old from Edmonton, becomes RedDawg or
Thor, or whatever.
But this isn't about teenage lust. It's about the future of major corporations.
There are many chat rooms devoted to discussing the performance of public and private companies. The chats are
sometimes informative and sometimes full of rude insults and wild accusations. Topics can include everything from a
company's quarterly performance, to a news story that appeared in FP today, to relevant or scandalous comments about
individual executives.
These discussions can and have moved stock prices.
It is the rare shareholder who will stand up at an annual meeting and question management's performance. But cloaked in
the anonymity of cyberspace, many people feel perfectly comfortable saying things they wouldn't dare say out loud or in the
presence of anyone involved.
Cyberspace has only been around for a nanosecond and has a limited history. But so far, it's been largely free of the sort of
legal constraints that bind the media. Broadly speaking, a newspaper can't say "Joe CEO is a crook" unless it can be proved.
But anyone can go on the Internet and say he's a crook.
What you say in cyberspace doesn't have to be true. It's just an opinion, an anonymous opinion at that. That view is firmly
held by those who see cyber-space as a bastion of freedom of speech. But there are others who see it entirely differently.
This week, Hamilton-based Philip Services decided to fight back. Troubled Philip has been one of the most actively "chatted"
companies on the Internet in recent weeks. Various executives didn't like what was being said in cyberspace.
Philip's lawyers managed to get an Ontario judge to issue an order forcing Internet providers to cough up the names and
addresses of subscribers who might have made negative comments about Philip.
The Internet companies were also told to preserve all messages sent by these individuals.
Many people think e-mails are like phone conversations  they disappear the moment you hang up. It isn't true. That nasty
comment you made in the chat room, those pornographic pictures you sent to your girlfriend in Italy ... they are still out there
and could be tracked back to you in a flash.
That's what could happen in this situation. A comment made in a chat room weeks or possibly months ago could resurface
and become part of a court case.
The Ontario judge made his decision ex parte, which means the other parties ( the Internet providers ) were not present or
able to present their side of the case. They will fight this order, probably to the Supreme Court of Canada.
The wired world is new. Our laws have not caught up with the realities of cyberspace. There are undoubtedly lawyers
who will make fortunes from this new legal specialty.
I don't think Philip will win this one. But meanwhile, if you thought what you were saying in cyberspace was private, think

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:06 - ID#431200)
When Crystallex lost its case last month, his losses topped US$61,000.
Saturday, July 11, 1998
Internet providers on defensive after Philip ruling
Technology Reporter The Financial Post
Corporate Canada is enthusiastic but Internet providers are feeling defensive after struggling Philip Services Corp. won a court order that may curb investors' online chat.
"What's wrong about making people more responsible?" asked Toronto corporate lawyer and Internet surfer Derrick Tay. "Accountability is not a bad thing."
On Thursday, it was disclosed Philip had won court orders that will force Internet providers to turn over the names, addresses and messages of chat group users who have been criticizing the company and its officers since April.
The industrial waste recycling and metals firm has become the focus of angry and malicious gossip on the Internet after a copper trading scandal earlier this year that left it with losses of about US$200 million.
Recent Internet postings about Philip included personal attacks on its executives, including racial slurs and threats, the company said.
On Friday, some people leaving messages in chat rooms showed no fear of the firm's legal manoeuvre and were continuing to make the kind of comments that led Philip to go to court.
Others thought the ruling could boomerang on Philip. "What if the writers have evidence that what they have written is true? What if those providing negative information are current and valued employees?" said one user, dubbed "philiphasreallydoneitnow."
The ruling is expected to have broad implications for investors who talk on the Internet. If the court order remains unchallenged, their anonymity will disappear.
The decision is believed to mark the first time a Canadian court has waded into privacy issues in cyberspace. Jurisdiction over the Internet remains uncertain. The information highway is still largely self-regulated, but is not above the rule of law, including libel.
"The law is the law and you're not immune if you're speaking anonymously," said Rick Broadhead, author of the 1998 Canadian Internet Handbook.
The potential end of secrecy has won strong reviews from companies and investors alike.
"The identity of people who make attacks should be disclosed," said Hugh Leggatt, spokesman for Placer Dome Inc.
Since early 1997, the Vancouver company's legal battle with Crystallex International Corp. over control of a Venezuelan gold property was fodder for online critics. Placer Dome received its share of "cheap shots" during the battle, but never took legal action, Leggatt said.
Misinformation was much more damaging for Crystallex shareholder Roger Bird. Chat room assurances about the company's gold claim prompted the Florida-based investor to snap up stock. When Crystallex lost its case last month, his losses topped US$61,000.
"I was naive," he said. On the Internet, "there's a huge credibility factor ... you have no idea ... who anybody is."
But customer privacy remains a "paramount principle" for the 120 members of the Canadian Association of Internet Providers, said president Ron Kawchuk.
"It's important for us to recognize the value of someone's privacy," said Nadir Desai, chief executive of the Canadian subsidiary of U.S. Internet giant PSINet Inc. His firm is reviewing the Philip court order.
The court's ruling "isn't addressing the issue" of Internet security, said Scott Remborg, Internet senior vice-president at MediaLinx Interactive LP. MediaLinx operates Sympatico, the Stentor group of phone companies' Internet service. The developing technology of cyberspace means e-mail containing hate messages may not even stem from the Internet provider in question, Remborg said.
By Friday afternoon, several Internet providers had complied with the court order.
"We haven't decided what we want to do with the information," said Philips spokeswoman Lynda Kuhn. "The goal was to stop the defamation."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:13 - ID#373284)
Now you all understand in Good Fellas why Paulie said "never talk on the phone"
I think it is hilarious, that in this wonderful new world the best thing to do is have no phone and do nothing electronic. Well, that is easy enough...the best time to bug out and go lead an enjoyable life somewhere will be Y2K...Uh Huh...The Sovereign Individual by Lord Rees-Mogg and James Dale Davidson is happening so fast I bet it is making their heads spin. WHAT GOOD IS PATRIOTISM? In the coming years it will mean nothing...yup and it is coming down the pike faster than light speed...

Individual tax havens will be set will strike a tax contract with the territory you desire to live in and thats that. Why live in the USA when you will be able to go elswhere and decide what happens to your money rather than some dirtbag in your state capitol or DC...

You would become a millionaire in a very short period of time without the government sucking you dry...


Oh won't have to worry about other people and their individual thoughts on how this that and the other should be, you will settle up your tax contract...bother nobody and be left alone...YES!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:18 - ID#229207)
Quick Notes from Texas
Folks here have Y2K concerns imbued with religiosity. Few seem to understand it but nonetheless have passionate feelings about it. Most who are afraid of Y2K here are not well educated or well-off. Perhaps angry to be cut ou of the 90s boom, wishing the winners ill? The well-off on the other hand are in at least partial denial. Most know that it will hurt them, but have not processed the personal implications or taken any action.

Noted a half dozen ads for golden eagles in the WSJ, "Eagles $299 two days only." Never noticed so many of these before. Am I just more aware ofthem now or have they always been there?

Re: stock market rally and gold duldrums --- Chinese saying: "The crowd is blind." When folks believe it is not safe to make money in stocks, they will get out of stocks, very likely in a panic. Will they then jump into a new investment or hang frightened onto the cash they have left? If they have any money left to "invest" ( funds that do not need to be liquid ) they will invest in bonds because they produce an income. After a stock crash, gold only for those who:

1 ) Have assets net of liabilities to cover at least 1 yr cash requirements.
2 ) Are confident of sources of income so they do not need income from bonds
3 ) Still confident after losing money in an equities crash that they know how to invest in a commodity like gold that they know less about than stocks

re WB selling silver: a significant rise in PMs means either massive inflation or deflation, the end of WB's world. WB and others with similar interests will not let their world die peacefully. What will they do to try to prevent this?

Good to see you all.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:23 - ID#286230)
Its Underway!
Reformated for your reading enjoyment

Philip wins court orders to get names

Seeks identities behind critics on the Internet

Friday, July 10, 1998
By Janet Mcfarland
The Globe and Mail

Philip Services Corp. has been granted 12 court orders to obtain names of critics who have posted negative comments on the Internet.

The cases are certain to have a chilling effect on the hundreds of investors who post messages daily to chat groups discussing the pros and cons of numerous publicly traded companies. Most of the discussions are conducted using pseudonyms, and Philip is believed
to be the first Canadian company to obtain an identity from an
Internet access provider through a court order.

John Gallagher, who has posted messages about Hamilton-base Philip on the Internet, said yesterday that he was not informed that Philip was seeking his name until after the information was released by his Internet provider, Weslink Datalink Corp. of Hamilton.

Weslink provided the information to Philip yesterday morning after being served with a court order signed by Mr. Justice Nicholas Borkovich of the Ontario Court's General Division in Hamilton.

"I didn't know that was happening. I wasn't in any position to offer any opinion," Mr. Gallagher said yesterday. "It was blindsiding."

Philip is pursuing similar cases with numerous other Internet access providers.

Nadir Desai, chief executive officer of the Canadian subsidiary of PsiNet Inc. of Herndon, Va., said he could not discuss continuing legal action involving Philip because his company's case has not yet been resolved. But Mr. Desai said PsiNet will pursue the case in the courts.

"We're wandering into uncharted territory here," he said. "This is something that the legal system has to work through, because never before has this type of technology been involved to do what one person might consider to be abusive and another person might
consider to be freedom of speech."

Philip's action follows months of comment, criticism and speculatio about the industrial waste recycling company posted on the Yahoo Inc. message board by investors and others watching the company.
Philip has struggled with losses of $126.3-million ( U.S. ) , a copper trading scandal and the departure of most of its senior managers.

Philip spokeswoman Lynda Kuhn said the company warned offending writers on the Internet in June that it would pursue legal action if they didn't stop making what the company considers
defamatory comments about Philip.

"We've been quite clear that there obviously is absolute entitlement to freedom of speech and people are free to criticize any company and discuss the company and its performance," she said. "But when it gets to the point of out-and-out defamation, stalking, ethnic slurs, forms of sexual harassment, it's going beyond anything that's acceptable."

Although the messages have been posted on a message board maintained by Yahoo Inc. of Santa Clara, Calif., Philip has turned to Internet access providers to find out the identities of posters.

Philip initially received an order on June 27 requiring Weslink to turn over the name of an anonymous poster, but the order was granted ex parte, which means neither Weslink nor the writer waw represented in court by a lawyer.

Weslink had the order amended at a July 7 hearing, but was compelled to release the name to Philip.

Weslink said in a statement yesterday that it treats client information confidentially and said it only releases data when served with a court order.

The company said it notified Mr. Gallagher as soon as it was legally allowed to do so under the terms of the court order, and did not comply with the original order until it had some of the terms

For example, the original order did not allow Weslink to tell Mr. Gallagher at any time that his name had been provided to Philip.
The second order allowed Weslink to notify him after his name was given to Philip.

In the order seeking information from Weslink, Philip lists 26 Internet names it is trying to identify. Three of the aliases belong to Mr. Gallagher, a former Hamilton city councillor who has been involved in public disputes over pollution in Hamilton harbour and other issues.

The only writer identified by name on the list is Paul Palango, a freelance journalist who has had a history of legal disputes with Philip. Mr. Palango, a former editor at The Globe and Mail, said yesterday that he has posted to the Yahoo site under his real name
and has not used an alias.

Mr. Palango said he doesn't know why Philip is pursuing the court order against himself and other chat group writers, and said he doesn't know what Philip plans to do with the information.

"One has to wonder what's going on at Philip when they have all the problems they have, and they're attacking selected aliases on the Internet and spending all this energy on it," he said.

Mr. Palango said he believes most of the Internet chat has been fair comment about the company's problems, and has not been libellous.

Mr. Gallagher said he chose to make his postings anonymously because he was concerned about repercussions in Hamilton and
because he believed he was being followed by someone who might
pose a threat to his physical safety.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:27 - ID#250121)
Freedom of Speach:::Bingo:::Coin Shops in Wgtn::::Gold kiwis for sale

Let's not over-react to this ex-Parte order obtained by Philips. I am sure the first thing the legal teams acting for the ISPs will do is apply to set aside the order, or at least stay the execution of ht order until a full hearing is granted. WHile I am no expert on Canada's BIll of RIghts nor general law, I would expect that an ex-parte order can easily be stayed.

This is just one shot high above the gunwales, not the end of the net at ll.

You asked about coin dealers in Wellington, are you looking for Numismatics and collectibles or bullion only? I have no experience buying coins in Wgtn but here are a couple of addresses of coin shopes I have found, you should expect to pay fancy numismatic prices, uh huh

Alistair Robb: PO Box 13 Wgtn. ph ( 04 ) 233 9666
Aotea Stamps and Coins: PO Box 1174 Ph ( 04 ) 499 6460

OTOH, I am able to supply 1 oz 9999 gold kiwis at Spot +10% decreasing to Spot + 7% for 100 oz. + p&p.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:29 - ID#335190)
Be Quiet...Consume....And Die @ Internet Accountability and People?
"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel.

Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's masters..."

President Grover Cleveland, Annual Message to Congress 1888

1938: President Roosevelt: "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism..."


Date: Sat Jul 11 1998 01:06....Goldteck

Corporate Canada is enthusiastic.... won a court order that may curb investors' online chat.

It's about the future of major corporations.

What's wrong about making people more responsible?" asked Toronto corporate lawyer and Internet surfer Derrick Tay. "Accountability is not a bad thing."
Only in Canada you say! Canadian Lackey's doing the Common Law thing, for USofA Corporations.

Lan Man
(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:33 - ID#320108)
@Philip Services Corp. Court Ruling
The only way that the internet service providers will get the message is if the Customers ( users ) simply cancel their memberships with the following companies immediately ( America Online Inc., CompuServe, iStar Internet Inc. and Weslink Datalink Corp. ) . The sooner they understand that if they do provide the info requested, the sooner they can expect a DOWNTURN in business. In other words - HIT THEM WHERE IT COUNTS - in the pocket book. In addition, sell any shares that one may hold in the above listed companies strickly out of principle. Now I don't nor would I use the above co's as my ISP, but if I did, shoot I would be history in a second....

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:33 - ID#373284)
Excuse me, but would not this canadian case cross international boundaries? At
what point does one country have rights over another...this thing is far from over and in the will dawn on people that this accountability that governments and corporations and lawyers wants is a two way street and eventually they too will have to be accountable.

The Sovereign Individual...get it...

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:38 - ID#250121)
Well, thank Ludd it couldn't happen here....
A true life Y2K tale from downunder.

Those who have been paying attention know that this gabby goldbugger left his EFTPOS card behind last week, and has been wondering when the bank was going to cough up ANOTHER. Well, it arrived this morning. There was some bs about the embossing machine not working.

The one I lost I got in about 93, had an expiry date of Aug 98, about 5 years. This new one expires in Nov 99. In less than 18 months. I have some questions for my bank about 1/1/00.


Suggestions invited on what should be in my letter to the Bank...

Dave in CO
(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:39 - ID#229103)
You said, "I didn't even know or care what the term "fiat" meant. I thought it was just some crappy little french car."

I believe that Fiat is actually "a crappy little Italian car." Or as we say in Kentucky, Aaaah-tal'yun.

Love your posts. Keep 'em coming. Thanks.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:46 - ID#250121)
I certainly respect your decision not to publish your e-mail address, and to maintain your anonymity. Some months ago, I bought some buttons to send to TED, you might remember. Anyway, at that time I saw a button that reminded me of you, so I bought it thinking one day to give it to you. It reads "Work. Buy. Consume. Die." if you can think of a way I can send it, let me know.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:50 - ID#250121)
Lan Man
Agree. Cancel those ISPs at once. How many of them are based in Canada, and how many in the US? I'd a thought that any US ISP would've given the fingers to a Canadian court order. Are such things enforceable against US companies?

Can canada do what the US does under ( Haig?/Hayes? law ) and confiscate property of foreign ( Can ) Companies who trade with Cuba.

Have I got that right? THis US interference in Canadian Companies?

Dave in CO
(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:50 - ID#229103)
@Y2K coverage on CBN
As someone posted here earlier ( or maybe on Freerepublic ) , 700 Club had a good program on Y2K. I feel the seeds of panic may have been planted at least for those with a functioning brain ( at least 1% of Americans ) . A guest spoke of preparing for the worst: no power, no water, no food, etc. And Pat Robertson and another guest agreed that martial law is a possibility at least in regions of the U.S. affected the most. King Slick and Queen Slickary will reign!

Anyone else see the program?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:55 - ID#263254)
Aurator...thanks for answering...
You've been the one and only kiwi to do so. Would prefer to have the option of bullion bars and coin, not numismatic. This is for family members that I want to take care of. I am in the states, and want to direct them to some good local sources to shop. They are just getting started in this whole saga of impending economic crisis and Y2K calamity.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 01:55 - ID#335379)
Hello Tantalus: try Itronics ITRO. Maybe they can offer some input.

Lan Man
(Sat Jul 11 1998 02:00 - ID#320108)
aurator: It's probably in one of those NAFTA or GATT treaties.

As to AOL, it does not suprise me one bit anything that they do, heck they probably offered all that info up before de "Judge" made his deal, I mean his decision.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 02:11 - ID#250121)
So far only two kiwis living in NZ have identified themselves here, there are 3 others who live overseas. The other kiwi is a mainlander.

If you publish your e-mail I will contact you re the Kiwi bullion coin, I can arrange postage to Wgtn. Shall give a guaranteed buy back at same price if not satisfied, less small handling charge. Discount for volume.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 02:26 - ID#284255)
Dave in Co - CBN review.
CBN Y2K Special

(Sat Jul 11 1998 02:51 - ID#284255)
y2k +investments - buy gold???
For example, buying Dec 1999 $400 gold call.contract would result
in a huge return if y2k problem become real. Gold will be a safety area.

John Disney__A
(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:04 - ID#24135)
I have a problem ..
And its only part one of three..

Trying to follow .. your part 1 of 3..

No problem with
1 euro = 1.0833 $
1 euro = 1.9808 dm

this simply says 1 dollar = 1.9808/1.0833= 1.8285dm

this is no big deal as that is about where we are..

BUT after your "heads up"

you assume 1 oz gold will equal 268.305 euros

that follows.. No need to go through all the
confusing gyrations ..

IF THAT IS TRUE .. and I see no reason to
believe it is .. then by inspection gold
becomes 268.306 * 1.0833 = 290.65 $ .....

NOT 269.444.

Therefore .. Im at a loss .. please expand upon
your mathematics .. I think you may be on to
something .. but if I cant follow part 1 ..
then God help parts 2 and 3.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:05 - ID#255151)
Hashimoto promises big tax cut "next year"

On the night before the election in Japan, the PM promises to cut taxes next year. Yeah, I believe him.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:16 - ID#386245)
Pay up Kitcoites!!!
It's about time!! A Canadian court has ruled in favour of the poor defenseless, slandered souls who have been copping heaps on the internet.

I am now in the process of reviewing every mention of mois ( miss you, Ted ) on Kitco in the past year. Quake in your booties, Kitcoites!!! As I am a generous person, I have decided to accept one oz. of Au ( in lieu of court action ) for every slanderous statement made about mois. Some of you are in deep doo doo and will have to pay up big-time.

A peremptory search reveals:

Auracious--owes 2480 ( .9999 ) Kiwis
Sharefin--owes 6 nuggets
J.D.--owes 17 Krugerands
HEAVY bsHITTER--owes Fort Knox
Donald--owes 1 gold beagle ( you said something facetious once )
Auric--actually, mate, the account is in debit to you--so will trade for your $10001 subscription

Others shall be notified shortly. Avoid court action Kitcoites!! A 90% discount is offered for all accounts paid within 14 days.

It is about time WE Antipodeans got the Merkan/Canuck "sue their pants off" culture. Sure ain't makin' any money on precious!!!

I'm watching, Kitcoites, for anything negative said about me. Watch yer cyber p's and q's.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:17 - ID#255151)
Nationwide Strike Planned In S.Korea

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:26 - ID#255151)
Nick of C

Well done! There is a chap named Murr-something who could probably handle your case. Need some help in collecting names and dates of those posts?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:41 - ID#26793)
OK Nick@C. You can double my tab. Anyone who would settle for a gold Beagle instead of a gold Cocker Spaniel has not got all his grey matter together.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:43 - ID#386245)
G'day 10000/20
Murr-who??? Mate, you have been most auracious lately. Might have to give you honorary Kiwi citizenship. A bloke near where I live downloaded some naughty pictures. Was taken to court and publicly shamed. Big Brother is here NOW, mate. 14 years late, but, hey, who's counting. This Toronto case is going to throw the cat in amongst the cyber-pidgeons. We will all lose freedom of speach in the wash-up. Just ask Auracious. If you think you Cananks value your right to say what you like--you should come down here. We are the greatest knockers on the orb. F.O.S. is so taken for granted--we should all spend a few months in China ( as I have ) . You will never take it for granted again!!

Just sittin' around waiting for my penny dreadfuls to make me a squillionaire. Gonna be soon, mate, if not sooner.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:49 - ID#386245)
Mornin Donald
Missus kick ya outta bed, mate?

Japanese elections. Would like your sagacious opine on the effect on precious + news, of course. Yen not doing well, but Nikkei well above meltdown level. Danged if I can figure out why Au is tracking the Yen. Platinum, yes. Gold??? What say you?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:56 - ID#287186)
Dave in CO and Sharefin - I saw the 700 club Y2K program
I agree with that the term "coward" may not be appropriate.
Already they are trying to not incite panic.
That effort in and of itself says a lot.
Take note of my quotes of them using what could be referred to or perceived as "inflammatory" or "scary" or descriptive words.
A keyword search of their transcript would yield some scary results.

Again what the said is not news here. It is who is saying it and the wide audience that the program reaches. The word is getting out guys!

Their guests included:
Pete De Jager, "Leading y2K Consultant"
Drew Parkhill, CBN or was it CBS "Y2K Editor"
Bruce Webster, "Washington DC Y2K Group"
Paloma O'Reilly, "Head of the Cassandra Project"

De Jager made the comment that:
"Japan is more concerned with survival tomorrow than with survival in year 2000"

Parkhill warned about there being:
Worldwide 1 to 25 billion embedded control systems of which 0.2% to 1% or more may fail

Webster told of:
a person with a camcorder who changed the date and let it roll over. Upon the midnight date change it ejected the video cartridge and locke up. Shw had to return the camcorder to the manufacturer to get it fixed.

O'Reilley emphasized
Loss of power, water and major problems with communications and transportation. The importance of social cohesion - preparation of communities. She called it a "National Emergency" and an "International Emergency"

Robertson, I think, used the example of the Battle of Britain where people pulled together to get through the devastating emotional and physical trauma.

O'Reilly emphasized that people should not "head for the hills"
but rather that they "should stay home"
( My personal take is that we may see a Presidential order restricting travel - to make people "stay home". We may see highway checkpoints )

They talked about Asia and Europe pulling us down even though the United States may be prepared.

Robertson specifically mentioned "MARTIAL LAW" and a
"Rending Stock Market Crash and Major Depression"
yes you read correctly - he used the "D" word.
He had also used the word "frightening"
He also said
"The only way to combat panic is with information"
He emphasize the importance of getting the word out
of talking to your employer and members of your community.

Regarding the question of "How Long Should We Be Prepared For?"
O'Reilly stated:
"Could be one week, could be one year. The worst will be over in 6 months."
Robertson stated toward the end of the program:
"Could be really short; one month, two months.

Note, fellow Kitcoites, they talked of MONTHs, not days or weeks.

Again they talked of nothing we already knew.
But their advice to start buying food, water containers, and making other preparations NOW certainly should get a lot of people shopping at their local hardware stores THIS WEEKEND.

They gave a ph # 1-800-716-FACT for a free copy of
"The Crisis and Confusion of Y2K"

They referred to the Cassandra web page and told viewers it could be reached through their web page. We don't have to do that.
Numerous posters here have posted it before but here it is again.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 04:59 - ID#252127)
About stock message boards

If a company is poorly operated, takes on large short term debt, forces shareholder opinion and pays the executives exorbitant salaries you cannot post that they're run by a bunch of bums on their message or chat board? Or is it how you say it. Like say: The &%$#$ a-holes are shafting the shareholders.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:10 - ID#250121)
Back from a fine french dinner..Quail then vennison...
Not staying long, gonna watch the All blacks beat the Stralians in the Bledisloe Cup in a little while.


It is of course, true, that antipodeans are not backward about coming forward with our opinions, we call a spade " a F*ing spade, you F*ing Burke" and some call us 'offensive' or 'barbarians' can't think why.

Now, as to that Alleged Debt of 2480 ( .9999 ) Kiwis, well, just send me over a couple of feral Cheryl dolls and we'll call it quits.

Now don't go murring anyone. OK

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:14 - ID#250121)

Amigo, is it slanderous to say you don't suit fishnet stockings?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:39 - ID#340344)
I agree with your idea on Dec 99 gold calls. I had a similar idea
in mind before Buffett appeared on the scene, and latched onto some Dec 99 Silver contracts. It was a bit of a struggle to get Lind-Waldock
to accept my order, as that contract was not yet even listed in their computer. Unfortunately, I am at this point under water on it,
but the excitement is just starting. I've been thinking about the
concept of "patience," and wondering when I will move instead to the
Dec 99 Gold contract. As a child once told me, "I can't know that."

And in appreciation for your reams of wisdom, I offer you this token:
"Save the floors for last."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:41 - ID#386245)
Bledisloe Gold Cup
Now for all you unwashed n. merkans, a great sporting spectacle begins as I speak. A bunch of oversized Kiwis and Orstalians are about to have scrums, line-outs and other shenanigans, to be followed by the movie "Once Were Warriors'. A violent night it's going to be.

Speaking of...I got 'breathalized' on the way home tonight. Don't have to blow into a straw anymore. Just "count to ten, sir" into this gizmo. Hadn't had a drink-- a situation I am doing my best to rectify. Modern technology is advancing faster than my neurons can accommodate. Waiting for the "Do-you-own-gold?" thought-machine next!!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:42 - ID#250121)
Everyone loves a GAME>>>>>>SHOW>>>>>>>>

( to see if anyone's awake )

( 1 ) In what year did a date first appear on an English coin? I believe it was the first coin to be imprinted anywhere with a date.
That Q. has great importance to the millenial nutters about us.

( 2 ) In what year was the first Postage Stamp issued? ( this was definitely English )

( 3 ) When first issued, there were 240 pennies in a pound. What was the penny made from, and how much did it weigh?

( 3 ) How much would that pound be worth today?

( 5 ) This one is controversial, that is I have books that disagree...Where ( what Country ) does the word "cash" come from?

Send all answers together with a gold sovereign to

or just send em to kitco

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:47 - ID#250121)
Forgotten silver

If you've not seen "Once were warriors" please do, or tape it. The book was a penetrating expos of the anomic maori warrior living in Auckland today. It is not pretty, and merka could never have released it. Don't forget, the maori were still cannibals 150 years ago. It was said, if they respected you, they'd kill you first.

Where's Sheller? Everytime I think of cannibals, I think of Sheller.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 05:51 - ID#250121)
away to watch a real man's game... go Black....


(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:18 - ID#255151)
NATO in "Baltic Challenge"

Looks like a pretty large naval exercize by NATO gets underway next week off the coast of Lithuania, near Klaipeda. Russia will attend as an observer.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:27 - ID#255151)
Here's What Latvia Thinks

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:29 - ID#255151)
Try Again

What Latvia thinks

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:30 - ID#230376)
Answers to the Kiwi kwik kwiz......

1.Dated 1000 B.C. ( no y1k )

2. Just after the post office opened.

3.A penny was made of MURRITE and weighed one pound. ( trick question )

3. ( again ) ( you Kiwis count funny ) 3.1416

5.Johnny Cash is from Tennessee

What did I win, auratious? Huh, waddidi ?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:31 - ID#26793)
My opinion on the Nikkei has not changed. I still am looking for below 10,000. It will bottom at about the time the Murrican Bear is confirmed and just starting. Just for the sake of argument, most of us expect a new bull market to start at some time in the future. There is no reason a bear market can't last 50-60 years, rallies for sure, but still a bear market. This one could be that serious. There is a lot of irrational exuberance to account for. As a world we have been at war for most of this century, say 1914-1989. Financial resources have been depleted as measured against gold. These war years were financed with the printing presses. That has to be reckoned with. It will not be easy.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:37 - ID#230376)
Hi, Auric !!!!!

Thanks for the Latvian url. I'm sure all of Kitcoland will get a laff out of their raucous, madcap sense of humor, especially their story of the priest, the minister, the rabbi, and the banker.........that was hilarious !!!!!!!!!!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:38 - ID#26793)
Without looking any of the answers up:

1. About 1720
2. 1856 Penny Black
3. Copper, don't know.
4. 56c US
5. China

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:44 - ID#230376)
@ Donald........

Never take auratious ....OR life too'll never get out of it alive.! Don't know where you're at, but here there is a beautiful GOLDEN sunrise and I must get back in my coffin...........bbl

(Sat Jul 11 1998 06:54 - ID#26793)
Our beautiful golden sunrise was an hour ago. Off to pick up a copy of Barron's ( seriously )

Mr. Mick
(Sat Jul 11 1998 07:11 - ID#345321)
Grizz re: your 20:37 of last night................
Above ground legitmacy of gold and silver coins in common circulation? Not likely. More likely electronic transactions only. Gold and silver then becoming worthless to the banks as far as transactions between little people are concerned. No?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 07:14 - ID#284255)
Merrill Lynch Y2K Survey Is Naively Optimistic
In the comic-classic movie "What About Bob," phobic Bob ( played by Bill
Murray ) tells his shrink that there are two kinds of people in the
world: those who like Neil Diamond and those who don't. In my opinion,
there are two kinds of people regarding Y2K: those who Get It ( GIs ) and
those who Don't Get It ( DGIs ) . The GIs, like myself, are pessimistic
about the eventual and inevitable outcome. We are alarmists. We believe
that so much is at risk that there is no way there won't be significant
disruptions, malfunctions, and crashes in vital computer systems. In our
opinion, you have to be naively optimistic to conclude that everything
will be fixed in time just because the consequences of failure are
obviously so grim. I think we are realistic pessimists. ( Unlike Bob, I
had a happy childhood and am an optimist at heart. )

The folks at Merrill Lynch are naive optimists in my opinion. They just
don't get it. They just issued a very impressive 440 page survey of
thousands of companies around the world to assess their Y2K
preparedness. The general conclusion is that "companies appear
reasonably confident of their own Y2K issues, but uncertain about those
same issues at their suppliers and customers." Before I launch my GI
counterattack, I want to praise ML for this great effort. ML has
enormous research resources and it is laudable that they've mobilized
them to assess the Year 2000 Problem. I hope that they are now committed
to providing quarterly Y2K progress reports of all the companies they
follow around the world.

While I disagree with the overall optimistic conclusion of the ML
assessment, I found lots of very useful information there that actually
increased my concerns about Y2K. In other words, the ML survey has a
wealth of information that can easily lead to exactly the opposite
conclusions about Y2K! I would love to turn more optimistic about Y2K.
But the ML data doesn't do it for me. Here is why:

1 ) Why is ML willing to trust the informal assurances of their
responding companies, when those very same companies don't trust the
assurances they've received from their suppliers and customers? Of
course some of the doubts about third parties may be attributable to the
fact that the responding companies haven't even asked them yet about
their Y2K compliance.

2 ) ML's survey methodology is totally inadequate. Apparently ML analysts
simply asked their companies if they will be ready. Some may have asked
more pointed questions than others. In any case, there was no standard
questionnaire and no indication of who provided the answers to the
informal and ambiguous survey. At a minimum, companies should disclose
how many mission-critical systems they have and how many are in
production--not just "fixed" and ready for testing. They should also
disclose how many mission-critical systems are from third parties and
have not been delivered yet.

3 ) ML analysts were asked to assess whether their companies: i ) will be
compliant, ii ) likely, iii ) less likely, iv ) unlikely, or v ) don't know.
Nearly all of the surveyed companies fell into the first two categories.
I couldn't find one that is "unlikely" to be compliant, and only a
handful that are "less likely."

Now let's look at the evidence in the ML report that completely
contradicts the optimistic spin provided in the introduction to the

1 ) ELECTRIC UTILITIES: In the US, the ML analyst observes that the level
of preparation of the electric utility industry is a "mixed bag." Some
companies are still assessing the problem. There is a "risk that Y2K
issues could result in power flow interruptions for the transmission
grid." The analyst gives a "thumbs down" on Y2K disclosure, yet he ranks
most of the companies as "will be compliant" or "likely compliant." In
Japan, the analyst observes that "electric power companies are pretty
much on their own in tackling the Y2K issue. They report that MITI,
which oversees electric utilities, has not come up with any special
guidelines or test standards to meet as of this writing." Among other
Asian nations, Pakistani, Malaysian, and Chinese electric utilities
appear to be least prepared, according to ML.

2 ) TELECOM: According to the ML survey, the one and only noncompliant
standout on the in telecom services on the planet earth is Brazil's
Telebras. However, the ML analysts in Japan provided only three short
paragraphs on there companies, noting that NTT was "lucky" to change
headquarters three years ago, so it is ahead of its competitors. A
recent US State Dept survey showed that roughly half the nations in the
world are not moving fast enough to fix their phone systems.

3 ) BANKING: The ML survey is surprisingly upbeat about banking in Asia.
However, "25 percent of respondents fear the interbank clearing and
settlement systems may not be compliant in time." The analysts covering
banks in Continental Europe hedge their optimistic assessment by noting
that all banks have to claim they will be compliant because "any public
declaration of this not being the case would lead to regulatory action
such as forced mergers, and possibly even withdrawals by depositors." A
good point that applies universally to all companies in one way or
another. The analyst of Japanese banks declares, without proof or
explanation, that Japanese banks don't have to spend as much money or
time on Y2K as US banks because they use more mainframes. He doesn't
mention the impact of the Asian Crisis on Y2K remediation efforts, nor
the regional risks of even more nonperforming loans caused by Y2K
troubles. In the US, banks are expected to finish the "nuts and bolts"
in 1998--leaving 1999 for testing. Interestingly, the US banking
analysts didn't provide a table of expected compliance. Instead, they
show the percent of estimated Y2K costs spent through March 31, 1998.
The median was only 30 percent!

That's enough for now. After all, I'm supposed to be on vacation.
However, I received so many e-mails about the ML survey, I decided to
respond now. Fortunately, a friend messengered the report to me just
before I left New York and I had plenty of quality time to study it next
to a pool. Again, I applaude ML for their great effort. It does provide
quite a bit of good news about Y2K. I expect that there will be more and
more good news as judgment day for our computers arrives. But let's stop
being naively optimistic; some systems are bound to fail and we must
prepare to cope with the resulting disruptions. Interestingly, about a
week ago, Canada's Task Force Year 2000, issued an update showing a
marked improvement in the number of Canadian firms that are taking
action, but still found enough bad news to recommend that "all economic
sectors should accelerate the development of contingency plans...."

Ed Yardeni

(Sat Jul 11 1998 07:19 - ID#259400)
Don't go get the Barron's. It will be full of articles about how obly and air head would buy gold and how gold is an outdated relic of the past ( probably true ) and how the gold market will probably continue dropping. It will also be full of articles about the Great Bull Market and how it will go on forever and now is a good time to buy because interest rates are declining and we just had a correction and the Dow will go to 15,000 and so on and on and on. This will cause you to become depressed, you will drink too much, your wife will yell at you for spending too much time in front of the computer, you will let your waistline go and the first thing you know you wiil become a derelict and a drunk and a ward of the welfare state. This will all take place after your wife runs off with a young stock broker who wears red suspenders and drives a BMW. Better leave the Barron's be.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jul 11 1998 07:44 - ID#259282)
Dear Bill j... He had a Mercedes.
Only kidding.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:04 - ID#26793)
Your warning came too late, I tried to get Barron's but it won't be in until tomorrow the newsguy says. Got a 2 mile walk in on the try anyway. Maybe they fired all the bullish writers and the bears need more time to re-write all the stories.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:08 - ID#286230)
The goal was to stop the defamation."

Sorry--don't have time to make this one pretty.

Internet providers on defensive after Philip

More FP Technology stories

Technology Reporter The Financial Post
Corporate Canada is enthusiastic but Internet providers are feeling defensive after struggling
Philip Services Corp. won a court order that may curb investors' online chat.
"What's wrong about making people more responsible?" asked Toronto corporate lawyer and
Internet surfer Derrick Tay. "Accountability is not a bad thing."
On Thursday, it was disclosed Philip had won court orders that will force Internet providers to
turn over the names, addresses and messages of chat group users who have been criticizing
the company and its officers since April.
The industrial waste recycling and metals firm has become the focus of angry and malicious
gossip on the Internet after a copper trading scandal earlier this year that left it with losses of
about US$200 million.
Recent Internet postings about Philip included personal attacks on its executives, including
racial slurs and threats, the company said.
On Friday, some people leaving messages in chat rooms showed no fear of the firm's legal
manoeuvre and were continuing to make the kind of comments that led Philip to go to court.
Others thought the ruling could boomerang on Philip. "What if the writers have evidence that
what they have written is true? What if those providing negative information are current and
valued employees?" said one user, dubbed "philiphasreallydoneitnow."
The ruling is expected to have broad implications for investors who talk on the Internet. If the
court order remains unchallenged, their anonymity will disappear.
The decision is believed to mark the first time a Canadian court has waded into privacy issues
in cyberspace. Jurisdiction over the Internet remains uncertain. The information highway is still
largely self-regulated, but is not above the rule of law, including libel.
"The law is the law and you're not immune if you're speaking anonymously," said Rick
Broadhead, author of the 1998 Canadian Internet Handbook.
The potential end of secrecy has won strong reviews from companies and investors alike.
"The identity of people who make attacks should be disclosed," said Hugh Leggatt, spokesman
for Placer Dome Inc.
Since early 1997, the Vancouver company's legal battle with Crystallex International Corp. over
control of a Venezuelan gold property was fodder for online critics. Placer Dome received its
share of "cheap shots" during the battle, but never took legal action, Leggatt said.
Misinformation was much more damaging for Crystallex shareholder Roger Bird. Chat room
assurances about the company's gold claim prompted the Florida-based investor to snap up
stock. When Crystallex lost its case last month, his losses topped US$61,000.
"I was naive," he said. On the Internet, "there's a huge credibility factor ... you have no idea ...
who anybody is."
But customer privacy remains a "paramount principle" for the 120 members of the Canadian
Association of Internet Providers, said president Ron Kawchuk.
"It's important for us to recognize the value of someone's privacy," said Nadir Desai, chief
executive of the Canadian subsidiary of U.S. Internet giant PSINet Inc. His firm is reviewing the
Philip court order.
The court's ruling "isn't addressing the issue" of Internet security, said Scott Remborg, Internet
senior vice-president at MediaLinx Interactive LP. MediaLinx operates Sympatico, the Stentor
group of phone companies' Internet service. The developing technology of cyberspace means
e-mail containing hate messages may not even stem from the Internet provider in question,
Remborg said.
By Friday afternoon, several Internet providers had complied with the court order.
"We haven't decided what we want to do with the information," said Philips spokeswoman Lynda
Kuhn. "The goal was to stop the defamation."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:10 - ID#29048)
WSJ and Barron's Online... first two weeks free

Bully Beef
(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:14 - ID#259282)
Selby Rideau Lakes are about 3 hours from T.O. unles you are in the Oshawa area.
Around here the best buys are not on the Rideau but the back lakes like Bob's Lake,Sharbot Lake, Buck Lake ,Devil Lake. North of Number 7 Hwy. around Ompah etc. is also relatively inexpensive. A cute stud wall with questionable septic is about 59 to 69 K. Depends on whot you want. Do search on Rideau Realty for properties around here.

Bully Beef
(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:17 - ID#259282)
The infamous Richmann's (sp) are back with O+ Y Properties and the shares are very reasonable.
Younger son who has experience with realestates crashes. Something like 8 bucks a share.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:21 - ID#259400)
You are lucky. I still say don't go get the Barron's tomorrow. I never became a gold investor until I canceled my subscription to Barron's and stopped watching CNBC. Now I sit in front of my computer screen day after day hoping to see a turn that never comes and watching all my charts go down and down and down. I saw a program one time about a tribe in Africa that has been watching the night sky for 2000 years waiting for the "Dark Star" to come. The patience required to sit and watch the night sky for 2000 years for an invisible object to appear is the sort of patience it takes to be a gold investor. Better not to clutter up your mind with Barron's or the Wall Street Jounal. Keep the faith. Go Gold

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:29 - ID#286230)
Bully Beef
Thanks. I was looking around Bob's Lake about 30 years ago--lots of water under my bridge since then. I was planning to look around Peterborough and it sounds like going east of there is a good idea.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:42 - ID#39828)
aurator, peace man.
Hey dude, whats it like sh!tting out flesh./ I used to puke it
then I gave it away.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:43 - ID#39828)
Bully Beef
Your off limits.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:47 - ID#359316)
Now this:
Dateline 3998 AD: A team of anthropologists exploring darkest Merika has
just discovered a remote tribe of Merkans who have been waiting for 2000
years for the price of gold to go above $300. One of them said

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:50 - ID#300202)
@Country Properties
Go further east-still 2 hrs fr Hogtown ( flying to C.B. ) . U can buy
200 acres undeveloped property 20 mins. from Sydney for $20,000,
albeit no w.f. or u can buy on private lake-25 acres for $30,000 c/w
500/700 ft w.f. & build a Confederation Log Home a la Bobcaygeon, Ont
for 80/100 per sq ft. Becoming a regular European Village here with

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:50 - ID#434108)
Auric - Latvian web-site
Where's the link to convert it to English?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 08:55 - ID#344236)
Bull run over- official!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:06 - ID#434108)
Steve Perth's 20:48 7/10/98 post is well worth reading./epicenter of Russia/Danger of Collapse
Lyndon LaRouche is a controversial political & economic voice,
with his own "ideology" perhaps.
But I recall that in the mid-1980's, he was calling for, and writing about, the Asian Crisis to come, and the impending world monetary & credit crisis that is now unfolding.
Perth's Fri. post at 20:48 is 'must' reading, imho; esp. as regards the ominous implosion of Russia;
and Thailand's efforts to come to its senses and throw off the IMF.

And Nancy Spannaus' quoting of Roger Altman, whose oped was recently in the International Herald Tribune, and the LA Times.....
is truely prophetic:

"Those who think that the mighty United States is immune to such forces of financial collapse, are wrong. This is a dangerous moment."

Reminds me of my 9/27/97 kitco post:

"When the tent collapses,
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side-posts,
and even the stakes. ..."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:15 - ID#426220)

Silver expert shares his most recent analysis about the forthcoming bull market in the "Poor Man's Gold."

Mr. Butler draws upon an experience of a friend ( Izzy ) who successfully identified the beginning of the Silver Bull in late 1970s, when silver was about $4.50 per ounce. Subsequently, Butler's friend make TEN TIMES HIS MONEY, ridding silver to $45!

Izzy correctly interpreted that "when the ongoing deficit in silver finally necessitated the withdrawal of the COMEX stocks, the end of the great silver price manipulation and the illusion of abundant silver supplies was at hand."

Ted Butler sees a dj vu silver scenario described by friend Izzy. Furthermore, Kodak's recent silver market action corroborates Warren Buffetts massive silver accumulation.

We are at the MOMENT OF TRUTH, which may well be a repeat performance of Izzy's TEN-BAGGER KILLING.

Izzy's dj vu may be read at following URL by deleting the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" before pasting it to the Internet finder:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:16 - ID#147201)
EJ in Tex
Can you take email? Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:19 - ID#39828)
yeh, hit us veronsky.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:27 - ID#251166)
@ goldfevr re. COT, gold
Hello Goldfevr -- Glad you're here. I have printed off and been studying your Thursday 7/9/98 21:13 post re. traders' commitments. I've caught most of it, but I'm still fuzzy on why the fact that commercials have "re-appeared at substantially higher net-long values than anything seen in the last 8 to 9 months" would open up a whole new bear market chapter for prices. Forgive my thickness, but would you mind explaining in plain English why this would be so? Maybe for me it's just a matter of understanding definitions.

BTW -- I was born and raised in S.D. Used to play Over-The-Line on Fiesta Island every summer; should be out there now, but sports have lost their meaning since I gave up drinking.

Thanks in advance!

John Disney__A
(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:46 - ID#24135)
Cmon ..
Salty ..
I got another quiz ..

Where does SDRer get one oz of
gold = 268.305 euros ???

But cash definitely comes from
Johnny Cash .. who never wrote
checks ..

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:50 - ID#431200)
Ontario and California courts have allowed the company to force Yahoo! and Internet service provider

Ottawa Citizen Online

Saturday 11 July 1998
Philip hunts Internet critics
Court allows firm to get names of anonymous authors
The Ottawa Citizen
The Canadian Press / John Gallagher said he was afraid to sign his name to his criticisms.
HAMILTON, Ont. -- Philip Services Corp. has been granted 12 court orders to track down names of anonymous critics of the company who posted messages on the Internet.

Ontario and California courts have allowed the company to force Yahoo! and Internet service providers to divulge names in a case that will likely have a chilling effect on hundreds of chat groups that discuss publicly traded companies.

John Gallagher, one of the first identified, said he has been named by his Internet service provider, Weslink Datalink Corp., of Hamilton. The Hamilton man said he posted messages about Philip anonymously because he was worried about repercussions in Hamilton and he believed he was being followed by someone who might threaten his safety.

Philip Services, a multinational specializing in industrial services and metals has been rocked recently with losses of $126.3 million U.S., falling stock prices, class-action lawsuits and the departure of most of its senior managers.

Company official Lynda Kuhn would not say whether Philip will pursue libel actions against individuals. She said Philip has gone after individuals it believes were responsible for messages considered "extremely defamatory, stalking in nature.", sexual harassment."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:53 - ID#229207)
@All DOW and bond rally toward Dec, 1999?
Asia flight capital pours into the US stock and bond markets event thought they are at historical highs because the US is relatively the safeest place to make money in these markets. Is it more likely that the world will abandon equities and bonds in favor of precious metals due to the uncertainties of Y2K or will world flight capital pour into US stock and bond markets during 1999 as the world begins to appreciate the USA's relatively high level of Y2K preparedness?

Stranger things have happened. Not trying to knock gold ( I own it ) but I do like to explore opportunities to make money. Thoughts?

chas, pls post your email again and I'll send you my new one.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 09:55 - ID#39828)
John Disney, cause yur a gooood sport.
UMMMmmmmm HGMCY DOWN 2.86%.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:18 - ID#255283)
@sharefin: your 7:14 Y2K related post
Thank you very much for your excellent information.

I'm pretty much in line with the published assessment from Ed Yardeni.
I came to the conclusion that electric power stations would report more detailed about their difficulties if they would have recognized them. The fact that they do not address these objective difficulties in their reports shows that they do nothing about it rather than having it solved.

It is also wrong from a professional viewpoint to say something "is fixed" when it is not tested yet. Only when code is tested and the tested version is in production, one can call it "fixed". Y2K compliance testing is much more difficult than just to change the program code. One has to set the date/time clock to the year 2000 event. That's extremely difficult for systems which depend on multiple subsystems and embedded chips. If anybody of those who say they are ready ( like power plants ) would at least admit that it was a difficult task to move multiple subsystems and embedded chips simultaneously in Y2K date/time mode, and that under these simulated date/time conditions their total applications work fine, then I would believe that they know what they are talking about. As long as they do not speak up to this testing result, which is the real Year2000 simulated test, I do not believe at all what they are saying.

Maybe, Merill Lynch is interested in preventing an early crash in the stock market and therefore they beautify their report???

Principally, I think if the problem would be addressed as a public emergency case, with real serious and professional concepts, I think the power grid problem still could be solved. If this problem isn't addressed until, let's say February 1999, it will be too late.

Therefore I think the real catastrophy could still be avoided. This is in my own thinking equally true for telecommunication.
Electrical power and/or telecommunication not being available, can trigger the "really big catastrophy".
Everything else not being quite ready might not trigger the "really big catastrophy" but a lot of discomfort.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:19 - ID#427357)
South Asia Pakistan seeks threatened IMF funds
BBC ANNOUNCEMENT: South Asia Pakistan seeks threatened IMF funds

Pakistani Finance Minister, Sartaj Aziz, warned that Pakistan would not be able to afford debt repayments if lending agencies did not release promised IMF loans.

The Finance Minister said that all the money that Pakistan receives in foreign assistance each year goes straight into servicing the country's foreign debt, and he argued that having met all the conditions laid down by the IMF, Pakistan should now receive scheduled IMF funds.

"At the end of this month, Pakistan is due to pay $800 million towards its $30 billion debt. Financial experts say that without international aid, the payment would wipe out Pakistan's foreign exchange reserves, leaving it with no money to pay for imports."

only 2.7% of the debt principle - WHICH IS ONLY INTEREST DUE

This is EXACTLY LIKE John Kutyn predicted. They ( i.e. ALL ASIA ) are
taking on more debt to pay the interest on the old debt - which makes
the TOTAL LOAN burden that much heavier... until the last straw is placed, breaking the camel's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This scenario will become an echo dj vu to be played throughout
ALL ASIA until the harsh medicine prescribed by John Kutyn is
finally accepted and swallowed.

Kutyn describes in minute detail - but in layman's language - the ills
of the Far-East where and how it will inevitably end and what
each person may do to mitigate the dire global ramifications of the
looming economic, financial & monetary debacles - which will
eventually invade and pillage Eastern shores. Go to following
URL - it's necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in word
"golden" before pasting it to Internet locator:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:21 - ID#147201)
Alberecht re your 10:14
How about sending me yor email. Mine is Thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:21 - ID#434108)
EJ's 09:53 & 'hot-capital' flows
There is so much liquid capital - trillions - 'hiding' in
stock & bond markets, in the USA & Europe...
rather being invested in real-goods producing,
honest-income earning enterprises, infra-structure projects, etc.,
the sea-saw, volatile nature of the global market-place today, with its careening flights of capital
from one 'epicenter' to the next...

suggests...imho... that

Japan & Asia will 'rise' again, as money-flows move ( back )
over there, from here & Europe.

This will be a long-term trend change/ super-cycle in scope.

In the 'turning-point' decade of this reversal ( -which I believe is beginning this year )
there will be great uncertainty, turmoil, confusion & conflict.
Gold will reflect this collective world trauma of death & re-birth
with rising prices/values.

If even a drop, of the oceans of of liquid hot-capital,
careening around this economic globe -gorged
on paper money & credit- finds its way to gold..

gold investment markets will sky-rocket.


Date: Fri Jul 10 1998 22:37
goldfevr ( Bully-Beef@20:19/Reify/Old-Gold ) ID#434108:
Japan/Nikkei/Asia will rise
As the US/Dow/Europe decline.

Japan in a 9 year bear
US in a 9 year bull

bread & water

it is time for the tables to shift and turn

Aug/Sep are the likely fulcrum/turning-point:

where this decade-long "destroyer"
and mega-decade-long 'AIR-craft-carrier'

do the inevitable - 'about-face'

and reverse.....
and our

and fate

Return to Kitco Homepage

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:35 - ID#39828)

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:36 - ID#242325)
Reify: Sustained bull market in Japanese equities depends upon just two factors:

Public bailout of the banking system
US style restructuring of corprations and financial institutions.

Nikkei 30,000 by year 2000 if these objectives are aggressively pursued.
But Nikkei 12,000 by year 2000 if Japan continues to equivocate.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 10:51 - ID#412273)
Oldman's Latest speculations
Has Oldman posted his latest stock and gold thoughts?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:03 - ID#195260)
a recent US News World Report article - Kodak owns China market
I've been meaning to post this all week. Thumbing through a US News and World Report I noticed an article about how the current CEO of Kodak ( ex-Motorola ) has bet the future of the company on China. In summary, they have taken over the Chinese photography industry with a 5 year monopoly guaranteed by the government. Kodak will invest +1 Billion on upgrading the plants, developing distribution channels, and retail sites. The point that really caught my attention was that only 15% of the Chinese population has a camera. In the US it is 90%.

Anyone want to figure out how much extra silver Kodak will need if 10% of the Chinese buy a camera?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:09 - ID#28594)
John Disney--Good morning
On Saturday, July 11, 1998

1 Gold ( oz. ) = 267.495 ECU
1 ECU ( XEU ) = 0.003738 Gold ( oz. ) ( XAU )

Median price was 267.495 / 268.203 ( bid/ask ) .
Estimated price based on daily US dollar rates.

164 Currency Converter  1997, 1998 by OANDA, Inc

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:11 - ID#195260)
today's the day
Isn't today the day the BIS is meeting in Japan? This meeting has been rumored to the the turning point, yes?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:18 - ID#28594)
JohnDisney--The 269.44 is a practical floor IF
"they" insist on the USD entering at absolute 1.08USD=1Euro,
we're pretty much where they need us to be...

Doesn't this give an interesting slant to forward sales? After Euro's
Grand Entrance, when the bars come down? Or any stock in which Standard
Charter --for one-- is situated? Incidently, there is one of the most
complete assessments of Anglo I've EVER seen in a Euro decision paper.
Would that be of interest to you?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:26 - ID#284255)
What if Dr. Seuss wrote technical manuals?
If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port,
And the bus is interrupted as a very last resort,
and the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort,
Then the socket packet pocket has an error to report!

If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash,
And the double-clicking icons put your window in the trash,
And your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash,
Then your situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash!

If the label on your cable on the gable at your house,
Says the network is connected to the button on your mouse,
But your packets want to tunnel to another protocol,
That's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall,

And your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss,
So your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse,
Then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang,
'Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang!

When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk,
And the microcode instructions cause unnecessary RISC,
Then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM,
Quickly turn off your computer and be sure to tell your mom!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:26 - ID#431200)
Allowing a wealthy Canadian family to move a $2.2-billion family trust out of the country tax-free,
Last updated: Saturday 11 July 1998 WORLD BUSINESS
Expert calls tax exemption on trust transfer "grievous error"
BILL REDEKOP, Winnipeg Free Press
WINNIPEG ( CP ) - Revenue Canada committed "grievous tax avoidance" by allowing a wealthy Canadian family to move a $2.2-billion family trust out of the country tax-free, a tax expert testified Thursday.
Neil Brooks, a professor at Osgoode Hall Law School, said the decision, which forfeited about $700 million in tax, sets a dangerous precedent.
Brooks was testifying in the case of George Harris. He is a Winnipeg businessman who is in Federal Court challenging a 1991 Revenue Canada decision to forgo tax on money moved to the United States.
The family involved has not been identified under confidentiality rules, but published reports say its the Bronfmans, who control the Montreal-based Seagram Co. distilling and entertainment empire.
There has never been any suggestion the family tried to evade tax.
But Crown lawyer Larry Olsson argued allowing third parties to appeal other peoples tax assessments would swamp courts with nuisance suits.
"One taxpayer doesnt have the right to challenge how others are being assessed," said Olsson, who is representing Revenue Canada.
"The law doesnt authorize anyone but the taxpayer himself to challenge treatment."
Olsson also reminded the court that there is a confidentiality issue involved in airing a third partys income tax matters.
Harris is appealing an earlier Federal Court ruling that said he couldnt challenge the Revenue Canada decision because he doesnt have a personal stake in the matter.
He has argued the issue is simply one of fairness and that the loss of $700 million in tax hurts everyone.
Harris, 53, earns $45,000 a year as an office manager with the policy magazine Canadian Dimension.
Brooks told Justice Frank Muldoon that the family trust began in 1971 as private company shares.
In the next 20 years they were exchanged for public shares. That should have triggered a capital gains tax, but a rollover clause was exercised instead, he said. That allowed the money to be taxed at a later date.
But Revenue Canada decided at a Dec. 23, 1991, meeting to waive the tax.
"Private company shares are defined as taxable Canadian property," Brooks testified. "If this is the case, then anyone can avoid tax by transferring real estate or private shares for public shares."
Public shares differ from private ones in that they are publicly listed and traded.
The matter came to light in a 1996 report by auditor general Denis Desautels, who said the decision circumvented the intent of the Income Tax Act.
Desautels reported that Revenue Canada accepted the argument that the transfer would not trigger capital gains tax.
He also tried to obtain meeting minutes only to be told there were none, a situation Muldoon said "reeks."
Lawyer Arne Peltz, representing Harris, argued Wednesday that Revenue Canada had a legal and moral duty to apply the tax and by waiving it has threatened public confidence in the system.
Most of Harriss legal costs are being covered by the Public Interest Law Centre, a branch of legal aid.
A Revenue Canada spokesman has said no one will comment on a case before the courts.
The hearing was to continue Friday.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:43 - ID#284255)
From the web

People will always revert to the precious metals when paper
money is shown to be an illusion.Paper money is always
a "money of the mind" that depends on a consensus trance......
a belief that the *government* know what it is doing as it
engineers the formation of it.When y2k hits and *government*
is shown to be among the laziest,the stupidest,the most ill
prepared,confidence in paper will decline.

This fiat,paper money is backed up by USG Treasury Notes
and USG Treasury Bills.That is what is carried on the ledger
of banks as a *backing* to loan out 10-20x that amount.
It would be criminal enough if the money lent out by a typical
bank was lent out at this 10 to one ratio based on a gold backing but the
process has gone beyond that.Credit cards,
debit cards are a further abstraction[wouldn't want our hands
to get dirty now would we?] where paper is not
even touched and we are propelled even further into the
"money of the mind" realm.

It was all getting a little bit too
precious....Ever stand in a supermarket line behind retards
[who have bought into the illusion and know zero about y2k......sheep to be
sheared] who pull out a credit card to pay for 10$ worth of food?
It was all getting a little bit too feminized.
Real men carry green cash ......f*** credit cards.
It was all getting too materialistic with no prayers to G_D.
We were all getting too proud with genetic engineering
and cloning......
Y2k will correct all of the above.

This Treasury paper that has so much value today depends on
crowd psychology for it's value.If there is a massive loss of confidence in
government due to very serious y2k disruptions
then what will back up all the electronic currency? Nothing!!

Months before 1/1/2000 I will take out my bank money and put it into Au,Ag
,silver dimes and quarters,
non-silver[ contemporary] dimes and quarters......and some green FR notes.

Anyone wanting to read about what a racket the Fed is should read "Creature
From Jekyll Island"...."Money of the Mind" by Jim Grant.I would also see
video "House of Games" which is all about con games i.e. paper
currencies..... and video "Trigger Effect".

Au Finger

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:43 - ID#147201)
SDRer re your 11:18
I would appreciate a copy of Anglo in Euro decision. How do you want to send it? Let me know, thanx Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:43 - ID#286249)
Gold's constituency is larger, stronger and more ardent in 1998 than in 1978...
It isn't in the US--for obvious reasons...
"While the dollar, the euro and the yen will be the most important currencies in the world for some time to come, it would be a mistake to ignore the role of gold. GOLD IS CURRENTLY THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT RESERVE ASSET. Total above-ground gold stocks amount to about 110,000 tons, worth $1.1 trillion at $10 million a ton. Financial authorities hold about a third of this--more exactly, 1.1 billion ounces--worth $330 billion at $300 an ounce.

EU countries hold 458 million ounces, counting gold held by the European Monetary Institute on their behalf. By comparison, the U.S. holds 262 million ounces. EUROPE WILL THUS HAVE A STRONG VOICE IN DETERMINING THE ROLE PLAYED BY GOLD IN THE FUTURE OF THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY SYSTEM."
"The Case for the Euro" Robert Mundell, professor of economics at Columbia University

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:43 - ID#284255)
It's good to see Yardini trying to read between the lines of Mother Merrills report.

I too think they want to avoid a colapse.
They don't want to lose their gravy train.

I am interested in your reflections regarding the utilities compliancy.
After reading that report a few days ago on Canada's ratings.
Which probably compare to a similiar position to NZ and Australia compliancy.
The following percentages represent the amount of effort completed:

Federal Government 20-25%
Provincial Government 10-15%
Telephone Industry 10-15%
Hydro 10-15%
Municipalities 5-10%
Healthcare 5-10%
Largest Employers 15-20%
Financial Industry 35-40%

I feel that there is a high degree in expectancy amongst key utilities that all will be well.
It seems all focus is on the financial businesses ( as they don't want to lose money - sic )
To the effect that little has been done within these utilities.

So foolhardy cause without electricity and telecommunications.
All those financial system will be worth nought.

Seems like they have it all back to front.

I'd like to see everything else dropped just to ensure we have the basic utilities there.
They can rebuild the banks and services after the utilities are finished.
But to do it the other way around is frightening.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:46 - ID#255283)
BIS: meeting in Tokyo today
Yesterday BIS opened office in Hong-Kong.
Has anybody heard about any meeting announcements or reports about this extremely important meeting????

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:48 - ID#284255)
oleman . .
I dont understand the permabears calling for a top now. Today. Yesterday.
Everyday. They ought to know that a deep correction without the right kind
of top will only greatly prolong their misery.

oleman . .
Strange that you should mention that 12/5/97 day. My son called me at
the close today and said it looked a lot like 12/5. Today's low goes in the
near future, my longs go.

topxprt . .
good point, this market IS sheer misery for permabears, you better
believe it, they will all be wearing strait jackets and living in padded
cells before this thing is over : )

oleman .
There's gotta be some "scare" days thrown in to keep the exuberance
down, but we're goin MUCH higher before autumn, IMO.

oleman . .
CRB down about another 2% this week. Stuff for food, clothing, shelter and
fuel worth 2% less. Paper wealth worth almost 2% more. Ridiculous! And I'm 100% LONG---paper.: )

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:48 - ID#286249)
Sharefin--There seem to be rather daunting problems


Hong Kong airport inquiry

As cargo processing virtually grinds to a halt, Hong Kong's chief executive orders an independent inquiry into the chaos at the new 12bn Chek Lap Kok airport.

Fragile support web when everything's "safe" can anyone be complacent about Y2K? ( And thanks for all the superior Y2K 'stuff'; and
where might one get the Dr. Suess computer handbook? {:- ) ) BBML

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:55 - ID#288369)
Great 10:21!!!!
"If even a drop, of the oceans of of liquid hot-capital,
careening around this economic globe -gorged
on paper money & credit- finds its way to gold..

gold investment markets will sky-rocket."

Beautifully said!!!! ;^ ) ~

John Disney__A
(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:57 - ID#24135)
well ecus me ....
For SDRer
OK .. now I see .. but this is just playing with
currency units .. As you say, with the conversion at
1.08 .. then gold is priced consistenly all round.
If THEY want to push the euro down to parity with
the US$ .. ( I dont see exactly how they would do
this .. sell euro/buy dollars does not compute ) , then
I would assume that gold would rise in euros to
about where it is in $US ( rather than the converse ) .
The report on anglos sounds fascinating.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 11:57 - ID#284255)
But that was a just a minor glitch. ( :- ) ) )

I find it interesting to envisage Y2k.
As the earth does one full revolution of 24 hrs
The 10% or 1% or .01% or .001% or .0001% of programs/hardware/embedded chips etc that are going to fail/mal-function.
Will all kick in globally with-in this one rotation of our globe.

Never before has this been possible.
The permutations are endless.....

Another opinion on bank runs.
Our fractional banking system is highly at risk.

Assume that Y2K will bring nothing bad, in fact ( Highly dubious
assumption, but just for argument's sake ) .

However, as each individual does his/her own cost-benefit analysis,
assigning any significant probability to a major Y2K disaster involving
banks, the payoff matrix becomes very heavily weighted towards *taking out
ones own money*, and ensuring the survival of ones own cash, even if the
net effect of many people doing the same thing is to cause the very crash
that is being protected against.

Next: If people start doing it now, very slowly, V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y, over
a 1.5 year time frame, it's conceivable that the Fed can perform a miracle
and manipulate the money supply in ways that a contortionist would envy.
It won't stop the ultimate inflation problem when everything settles. ( Buy
gold ) But it might stop the immediate crash.

However, this is unlikely. As was pointed out, many to most people follow
the herd. They will simply NOT DO ANYTHING about their money in the banks
until they see others doing it because of a specific event. And if they
then attempt to all do so at one time, then you will wake up one morning
to find a temporary "bank holiday" in effect, for who knows how many days
or weeks, while the Fed imposes rules prohibiting mass withdrawals.

Which might save the banks, but be more efficiently fatal to the capital
markets than dropping a nuclear bomb on Washington.

We will see. At this point, my best guesstimate is on a very very slow
"hidden withdrawal" scenario over a period of many months, perhaps for a
whole year. Then, sometime next summer, something will happen, inevitably,
and the mass panic will set in. Everyone will want HIS MONEY and want it

P.S. And all of this was assuming that Y2K will cause virtually no
problems at all.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:04 - ID#373284) am going to try and corner the pipe and rolling paper market in the
next six months...we will see who needs to trade what for what...and then matches and lighter fluid and flints...heh...heh...heh...

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:05 - ID#286249)
Chas-- re:AngloAmerican

Here you go....
of 23 April 1997
declaring a concentration to be compatible with the common market and the
functioning of the EEA Agreement
( Case No IV/M.754 Anglo American Corporation/Lonrho )
( Only the English text is authentic )
( Text with EEA relevance )
( 98/335/EC )

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:11 - ID#286249)
JohnDisney--It is not so much that they wish to pull the
Euro up to meet the dollar, but rather to pump the dollar up
to equivalence with the Euro...

One can't help but think their job is not that difficult, because
we all seem to assume the dollar is the 500 pound monkey...

From foreign reserve balances to gold hoard to trade account balances, the dollar is MIST...missed...

See, they have the "credibility" of the dollar off which they can
trade! Duck soup! The Marx Brothers version {:- ) ) bbml

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:14 - ID#286249)
JohnDisney--Many (well a few) strings to the whit

Germany's massive holdings of US Treasuries: flew in the face of everything I was told, and most of the lines I read between! NOW IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE! The Germans buy us Treasuries with Dmarks, which will be devalued by half, but the instruments they hold ( the US Treasuries ) will be 1USD=1 EURO!
Goes right to the bottom line! Clever, clever, clever. And not a blessed thing the USG could do, so gratefully were they to find someone to take the paper and guarantee Clinton's re-election and the Panglossian American economy

The REMARKABLE transparency of the Europa site: it is necessary to wade through a sea of paper, and it is a BORING swim for the most part, but EVERYTHING is there. One just needs NOT to look at it from the expected perspective, and believe the truth of the truths they articulate. The truly ultimate Purloined Letter.

John Disney__A
(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:16 - ID#24135)
boring numbers....
for hedgeclipper.
You're a sweetheart too..
Just stand back and get some perspective ..
Lihir @christmas = 1.7 and now 2.2 = plus 29%
Harmony @christmas = 2.25 and now = 4.25 = plus 90 %

Shall I repeat this to you daily ??
lest you forget ...

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:27 - ID#147201)
SDRer re 12:05
Got the post, but tried URL and got nothing?? I used the first categoty re Case No and Anglo. What am I doing wrong

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:35 - ID#411259)
..... Litte birdie go tweet tweet tweet .....

I have, in an oak barrel right next to my lime tree, a Sago palm tree that is my pride and joy. Its probably 30 years old and was raised in the Hawaiian islands until I nabbed it about 5 years ago from an importer who had this tree and its sister in quarantine. A friend of mine got the sister and I got this one.

Why should this be of any interest to anybody at all?

I noticed this morning that a mother bird ( dont ask me which kind, I dont know ) is building a nest in amongst the fronds of my favorite palm tree.

I dont know why, buy I find this very appealing and it gives me hope for the future.

I will soon have little eggs to be concerned about and I will protect the nest against all enemies, foreign or domestic.

I feel like a brand new uncle.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:43 - ID#147201)
SDRer re your work
I am hard on this the weekend. You have covered up a dozen Philadelphia lawyers. In wading thru this I have to talk to you. My phone is 704 433 6473. If you'll email me yours, I'll call you. This needs settling NOW. Thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:53 - ID#195260)
e-address from memory
RJ - is your email

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:54 - ID#411112)
Two big rumours out there this morning..1) Japan is pissed off with US will start dumping treasurys

Monday ...2 ) More talk of Rubin going bye-bye,Wall Street not happy if Summers takes his place....any comments

(Sat Jul 11 1998 12:57 - ID#242325)
lease rates
One month gold lease rate fell from 1.31% last Wed. to 1.16% on Friday. Even cheaper for the spec shorts to borrow. Not a good sign.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:05 - ID#412286)
From where do these rumors emanate?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:07 - ID#411112)
ROR.....Fox news


(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:07 - ID#256217)
John Disney - Advanced Get
A friend has used Advanced Get the past three years as his primary program and done very well. I have frequently monitored the Advanced Get site ( ) and have been impressed with their calls. I'm also interested in purchasing the program. I thought about it a couple of years ago, but instead purchased Prechter's WinWaves which is basically useless. Wish I would have put the money into Advanced Get.
I subscribe to Stocks & Commodities, and Advanced Get has won their annual reader's poll for the trading systems category the last 5-6 years in a row.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:15 - ID#347235)
Rob, I think it is time we reminded tha Japanese that we kicked their butts once and can do it again the same way.

GOllum I have been way for a week , How is your wife, much better by now I hope?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:16 - ID#26793)
Summers has been in front of the cameras a lot lately and has been sent on important missions. I had been thinking it was because he was a replacement designate. The rumor rings true.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:22 - ID#26793)
Look for my posts around 6-7 AM yesterday.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:25 - ID#411112)
Donald..heres the Fox story on Rubin,reuters has the Japan story..

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:31 - ID#411112)
Retired Soldier...The last time if I remember correctly,they dumped US pig iron on us,now they going
to dump US debt on us.....

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:34 - ID#26793)
@Alberich; here is a repost of BIS meeting news

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:49 - ID#411259)
..... Stuff .....

Kutson -

The Kodak China thingie IS the near term future of photography, and the battle is being fought between Fuji and Kodak for control of 1/3 of the worlds potential market. Fuji is currently winning the war primarily because of its proximity to China and years of name recognition. Newly affluent ( by their standards ) Chinese are buying two things: Cameras and platinum jewelry.

This enormous new market is all we need to continue growth as a nation. Many here believe that collapse is inevitable and all will be doom and gloom when the dollar falls and the whole of the world is contracted in one brow of woe.

Is it not just as likely that these vast new markets opening to us will support continued growth in our country and others? This optimistic view requires no more faith than the apocalyptic scenario, but it is rather more hopeful, yes?

Thanks for bringing this to the collected attention. Regardless of who wins the war for Chinese customers, photography will increase and silver usage will rise. Over a billion Chinese really dont need digital cameras, they are very pleased to have a little 35 millimeter so they can capture the images of their loved ones for the first time in their lives.

Sharefin -

In addition to your tireless work on WhyTwoKay, I am pleased that you have time for silliness, and this is good. I loved your Dr. Suess ditty this AM. Your advise to start bailing QUIETLY is sound. It also offers the best scenario to layer in purchases to assure your cost averages are as low as possible without trying to bottom fish.

The only downside I see to your plan is missed opportunity costs but I think forgoing these opportunities is very prudent and safety is the key as we near the millennium. One may miss out on a few points of profit here and there, but one will keep what he has and that is more important than anything, yes?

As always, your posts help make this site a required read for anybody interested in preserving their wealth and weathering the gathering storm.

Salty -

Will respond this weekend

Dave in CO -

I drove the aforementioned "crappy little Italian car" in my younger days. I too have a hard time reading "fiat" and not thinking of Cosmo - my Fiat mechanic. Since I went Japanese, I never even see a mechanic these days.

All -

The whole Internet privacy thing is a crock. If you post it publicly, you are accountable for your words. There is no such thing as anonymity, it does not exist. I believe the courts will have trouble with this issue for years to come, but the lesson to be learned is to not publish anything you cant support. If people are doing reckless hit jobs on companies any costing them $, why should not the company pursue this through all legal means possible? If the negative stories are true, the poster has no worries, if they are fabrications, or lies mixed with truth, let the poster beware. Why should not a company strike back? Do they not have the same rights as an individual? The only people fearful of this ruling are people with something to hide. All others live in the light and leave these fears for those that have cause.

I will stand by anything I have published.

If others require anonymity to speak, and this silences their voice, their furtive words are probably not worth reading. As I have oft repeated: Information is useless, unless you know the source.

We are responsible for our actions. Anonymity does not erase this, it just allows the anonymous one to hide from this responsibility.

I suspect this view will not be taken kindly here, but it is not a matter of free speech. Libel and slander laws are but two examples of how the covenant of free speech is not absolute. Should someone wish conduct themselves in this manner, one should be ready to support their contentions or face the music.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:50 - ID#43460)
robnoel_A re pig iron
I'm surprised anyone remembers that debancle. Do you know that it was OUR government under Kennedy/Johnson and a Democratic Congress that GAVE and encouraged them to take our newer steel making batch processes? Which is why the US now has only a handful of economically viable steel mills. We even trained their engineers and mill workers back in the 60's. Then again in the late 70's under Jimmy Carter they finished the job. Now they train us. IMHO

(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:53 - ID#411259)
..... Kuston .....

I am at

The "d" is the initial of my last name, which I cannot divulge because I want to remain anonymous.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 13:56 - ID#28594)
Donald--While it my be GrandDelusion on my part...

I can not help but be struck by the energetic little circle of what appears to be GOLD COINS, on the periphery of the circle that morphs into the world globe iconthis on the EMEAP website, upper left hand corner.

The EMEAP central banks are mostly Asian after alland subtly is their forte! Whatever! Gives one a LIFT it does!

EMEAP Central Banks

EMEAP website
This is where the gold coins "circulate"! And the EMEAP banner is gold too! One lives in hope! {:- ) )

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:00 - ID#26793)
RS, Kuston
Don't get too gushy about the Kodak-China deal. The Chinese are protecting the domestic market for the state owned Star-Brite line. Most of the stuff Kodak makes in China will be for export.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:06 - ID#412286)
Product Liability
limitation bill fails. Reason...REPUBLICANS did not want a patient's bill of rights attached to the bill as an amendment. This is disgraceful and clearly demonstrates that the republicans are in the hip pocket of the insurance industry. They'd rather let the trial lawyers off the hook than give any rights to patient's of HMOs. This shows the Republicans interests are directly opposed to the interests most Americans including many of the upper class.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:08 - ID#411259)
..... Donald .....

I first read of the Kodak Fuji war being waged in China about a year ago. I saved the article and will try to dig it up. I don't know about Kodak manufacturing in China, but the retail photo market in China is the largest untapped market in the world. Both Kodak and Fuji have staked their futures on breaking into this market. The importance of this to us is not who wins the war, but in increased silver demand, which seems assured.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:08 - ID#411112)
gagnrad...there are two groups in America,those who believe in the principles outlined in the
Constitution,and those who want to destroy it.Sometimes you have to wonder about those in power,who's side are they on

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:13 - ID#426220)
Market View - 3rd Quarter 1998 by Crimi

Wall Street analyst Wayne Crimi continues to forecast the coming of the bear. Furthermore, he provides ample supporting arguments for his view.

"stocks are much more expensive than they look based on current
PE ratios and free cash flow levels."

"There simply are very few businesses that possess the kind of advantages that are usually necessary to sustain above average returns over the long haul. In the mean
time, stocks are very expensive even discounting this favorable state of affairs."

"Aggregate U.S. business is selling at 2-3 times its
average selling price depending on the criteria used. It is also
selling at over twice the replacement cost of its assets according
to a recent study I saw. I believe there is virtually NO MARGIN OF
SAFTEY in almost all stocks purchased at these levels!"

Wall Street Analyst provided a table containing 30 economic and financial parameters, which underscore the markets over-value. The table data covers a 10-year period from 1988 to 1997. A wealth of pertinent financial reference data.

Even the Fed thinks the stock market is over-priced: "According to the Federal Reserve's model, stocks were 20.2% overvalued as of June 30, 1998.

Mr. Crimi's full report at following URL. It's necessary to delete the extra letters "en" in the word "golden" of the URL before pasting to your Internet finder:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:21 - ID#43460)
China demographics for Kuston et al (8-^]
Kuston, at the bottom of the first screen click on countries, then on the left of the second screen scroll down and click on china. This is the general URL for the CIA world factbook.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:22 - ID#26793)
The gold coins are nice but the splash from the comet hitting the Pacific Ocean is a little scarey.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:22 - ID#287186)
Some additions to my 04:56 report on the 700club Y2K special
As I wrote last night, the content of this program we already knew.
That the message is reaching the 700 Club audience is momentous.

Paloma O'Reilly emphasized buying supplies NOW so that manufacturers, distribution and retailers, could ramp up their production and inventories to meet demand. She said that in six months shortages would start to appear. That's next January.
Oh yes, Robertson said we would start to see Y2K problems on Jan 1, 1999.
One of the guest experts likened the idea of solving this problems with a crash program of lots of programmers to:
"Having nine women create a baby in one month."
They disparaged the "silver bullet" touted in the USA Today article by stated that:
There are over 500 programming languages that have been used with hundreds of operating systems. There is no way a single "Y2K bug squisher" could do the job.
The tenor of the program agreed with analysis here that it is already too late to fix the problem and that we will have a major world wide emergency.
The program ended with a prayer in the name of Jesus asking the Lord to protect his people.

Fellow Kitcoites - when the religious sector gets cranked up with everything from community luncheons with Y2K speakers to gurus threatening the end of the world and offering salvation to the faithful ( if they bring Gold ) - next year will truly be "interesting times".

Anybody else have observations regarding this Y2K publicity besides
Dave in CO's 01:50 and mine?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:28 - ID#255190)
Bart, Kiwi asks ..
is it a mistake that he was 404'ed? Is there a process for redemption?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:33 - ID#411259)
..... gagnrad the unpronounceable .....

Way cool site. It will be a valuable resource for another project I am working on.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:33 - ID#43460)
Robnoel_A, r.e. 2 groups, (I'me one of the curmudgeons) RA Heinlein quote
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat,
populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are
never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into
those who want people to be controlled and those who have no
such desire. The former are idealists acting from the highest
motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The
latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in
altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the
other sort."

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:39 - ID#411112)
Squirrel...The only person who has not said anything about the Y2K problem

is none other than Mr.Information Super
Highway,lets wire Americas schools to the
internet AL GORE.....the only thing thats
come out of the WH has been PDD63....Critical
Infrastructure Protection act.....if this
thing kicks in it will make Y2K problem seem
like a picnic....I was sorry Pat did not
speak this....

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:45 - ID#433143)
Y2K - regarding my bank account!
weird, i am looking at my online realtime statement, and it seems that a loan i paid off 2 months ago is still showing up? it says balance due 0.00, however it says next sceduled payment is May 1, 2000? hrmmm this cant be right i guess? They assured me the are compliant.. hehehe

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:49 - ID#255190)
Deflation on two accounts, yet gold&silver will rise
We tend to remember that the Great Depression ( 1930's ) effected a reduction in asset and real estate prices. But gold actually ROSE by 57% in US$ terms ( From $20.67 per oz to $35.00 per oz ) . Gold also rose during the Great Inflation of 1970's.

I feel that a deflation will result from a destruction of wealth which has been invested and held in digital systems ( which represent about 99.8% of all 'money/credit' in existence ) , and which will be irretreivable as Y2K destroys the economies of the planet.

What will be left will be batter, cash and PM's. In this scenario all prices are supported by the superabundance of credit which will be destroyed resulting in a vast deflation of prices. Possibly as much as 95% reduction in valuations may occure.

PM's will escape this and in fact be bid up drasticly because digital money will try to flee the system into cash and any other form of money. Cash is a one for one exchange with digital money but there is only a little bit available to be had. That exit will be blocked. But PM's are priced by the market and digital money will find other avenues of exit through them.

The question is why one would want to sell real wealth for digits in a system which is burning to the ground. One will not do so. Can you spell 's-k-y-r-o-c-k-e-t'? Yes, you can!

When we see the US dollar rising AND gold rising we will know that digital money has begun to seek something of the old store of wealth in real metal. This hint by ANOTHER is well considered. Right now the US$ rises, as interest rates in other countries fall to stave off depression then the 'yen carry trade' will become the 'all non-US$ carry trade'. This will drive all money to the dollar and US bnd interest rates will fall ( slower than others will though ) as US$ rises.

Once the powers see this then gold will be resorted to as a means of jumping out of US$'s as these folks will know that the end is very near. Then the price of gold will rise at the same time as the US dollar is becoming THE only currency to be had.

BBML, looking forward to any thoughts you may have on this.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:50 - ID#433143)
And we all know how much film those Asians use in their cameras when they come overseas! hehe maybe just in the movies..

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:58 - ID#43460)
RJ, its easy just say "gag, gargle, rad" and you've got it. It works best if you hold your nose.
Here are a couple of basic links to take a first step in getting to the zillions of dollars worth of US and State government info centers. This is free to US citizens, but all Canadians and others, please send $85,000, my part of the Federal debt, to the nearest IRS office. If you feel guilty about all the past foreign aid the US has sent to bail you out in the past you can send your check, gold bullion or money order to "Gagnrad's American Foreign Aid Guilt Relief Fund" 'Jes kidding!

Federal government information:
State and local government index:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:58 - ID#255283)
@Donald: thanks a lot for your post from 13:34
This BIS meeting Tokyo seems even larger than I had thought.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 14:59 - ID#426220)

Interviewer: "Mr. President, what importance do you attribute to the looming Y2K problem?"

Pres Klinton: "Y2K...SCMAY-TWO-KAY... it's just a glitch in da road,
just like dat Asian Schmaytion stuff." I got things more importantant to think about.... Monica, OH Monicaaaaaaa...

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:00 - ID#255190)
Comment about 'religious' organizations and Y2K
There has been some forboding for the past year among Christian Evangelicals regarding economic convulsions. The CBN is doing its due diligence for its constituency. Please do not slam them. Yes, they are getting the picture. Part of the reason they are listeaning and thinking about this is because they expect the world to convulse at the end of this age. People who have been marginallized by mainstream society for their beliefs will tend to 'get it' before the 'world' because they are less invested in its illusions.

Being 'one of them' I am glad to hear that they are proposing a measured pulling of reasources in order to give the producers time to ramp up their output. This is INFINITY BETTER than our government which insists of keeping people in the dark.

CBN is actually providing LEADERSHIP. Wow! Praise God!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:04 - ID#411112)
REPOST....put this up before PDD 63...and you thought Y2K would be a problem

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:09 - ID#431366)
Mr Mick - your 07:11
That is the point I have been trying to make.
And because of that
Without Gold being used for commonly circulating money
the price of Gold doesn't have a chance because there
is not much use for Gold outside of jewelry, electronics
dental fillings, and industrial applications.
That means a price similar to Silver.
Especially after the CBs and governments
eliminate the monetary need for Gold in an international
system based on paper - en, Euro, Dollar, or whatever.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:20 - ID#215208)
Gold - Not inspiring, but could be worse.

Silver - Has just barely broken the bottom of the new up channel. On full alert. If silver doesn't validate this up channel in the next few days by breaking 5.40, it means the down channel is still in effect, and I must abandon ship. Silver and gold.

Platinum - On the other hand .... Platinum has broken through the top of the previous down channel, and appears to have validated the new up channel. I think we will see a London close in the range of 390 soon.

Palladium - Still rambling up, roughly following its long-term up-trend line. Good for platinum.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:36 - ID#269207)
@robnoel I strongly
SUGGEST, that you obtain John Marshall's "American Bastille"
if you want to see what this meant in Civil War.........
and how it was used....It is a collectors Item.. the book..Marshall became U.S. Supreme Court Justice if that would be of interest as too his veracity....

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:38 - ID#228128)
ROR: On the question of hip pockets
The number one campaign contributor to both parties is, and you guessed it, The American Medical Association.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:40 - ID#348127)

I am having problems finding people who agree with me. I believe that the price of gold is fixed by some group of insiders. I believe that it is remainig at a low level for one of two reasons.
1. To make the average guy think that gold is not going anywhere. Make him think that he stands a much better chance of making $$$ in the stock market than he does in Gold.
2. To allow insiders or people who are in tune with whats really up the opportunity to buy it all up at a discounted price.

I am trying to get some oppinions. If anyone agrees with either of these views, please speak now or forever hold your peace.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 15:59 - ID#255283)
@mapleman: I think both reasons are true.
And I think it is obvious since a very long time that the gold price is not found through market forces but through big hand manipulators.

It is also a question mark how "independent" from the financial oligarchy the European CBs act. Seems different from case to case.

Right now, it seems to me the European CBs have at least put a floor bottom level to the price around $290 or $295. That's like a compromise between those who want the gold price down to $6.00 and those who want to keep gold as the most important reserve currency. This battle is not over. I'm convinced the pro-gold faction will win this battle.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:02 - ID#431366)
Mapleman - I agree that the Price of Gold (POG) is fixed
Gold is a poker chip in a private, closely held casino.
The priviledged players get to trade it and set its price.
But I perceive that it is fixed at a high price -
way above what it is worth as an industrial metal like Silver.
The mines have sold forward production to get those prices now
before the POG drops after the complete demonetization of Gold.
You shall not find me investing in Gold
because it's price is manipulated by price fixers and politics.
It's price bears no relation to reality.
SILVER on the other hand, is a pretty good buy and investment.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:06 - ID#257148)
Reposted from this morning, so far, only Q 5 has been answered correctly

( 1 ) In what year did a date first appear on an English coin? I believe it was the first coin to be imprinted anywhere with a date. That Q. has great importance to the millenial nutters about us.

( 2 ) In what year was the first Postage Stamp issued? ( this was definitely English )
Donald, right stamp, wrong year.

( 3 ) When first issued, there were 240 pennies in a pound. What was the penny made from, and how much did it weigh?

( 4 ) How much would that pound be worth today?

( 5 ) This one is controversial, that is I have books that disagree...Where ( what Country ) does the word "cash" come from?

A. ( a ) China ( well done Donald ) ( b ) Tenessee, well done Eddie.

Send all answers together with a gold sovereign to

or just send em to kitco

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:09 - ID#228128)
John Disney: Which is the better buy, Durban Deep ADR at $2.00 or
Harmony at $4.00?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:19 - ID#373284)
The price of gold is fixed...hmmmmmmm
Islamic mint...India...let's see...that's two billion who are clearly moving away from the West and it's foul fractional reserve BS...yup the price of gold is fixed...on whose terms eh...

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:32 - ID#287129)
mapleman (FIXED)
Unfortunately, I have to agree with your posting. Even if what you say is NOT true, the extended pressure to keep gold near or below $300/ounce for these many months certainly would cause many to believe your suspicions.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:40 - ID#431366)
Please don't confuse my hopes for Gold & Silver with my bearish view of now
If this world used Gold and Silver for money instead of bytes and paper
then Gold would be upwards of US$20,000 per ounce
A one-ounce golden eagle could buy a new car.

Silver would provide the bulk of commonly circulating coin
and would be worth upwards of US$100 per ounce.
A one-ounce Silver Eagle could buy a cartload of groceries.

But as it is now - it is all moot for us common folk.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:48 - ID#26793)
You are going to force me to look the answers up eh? Gives me a chance to look at nice gold coin photos. I found some Islamic coins with AH dates that equate to about 800 AD. Earliest non-Islamic coin I spotted was Dutch dated 1649.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:57 - ID#251166)
@ DJ
Thank you for the Channels. I look forward to them every week. Hope you're making money.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 16:59 - ID#252391)
IDT and Disney
I hope Disney gives you the comparison's you seek on Harmony and the other So African ADRs. From a comparative stock performance basis Harmony leads the pack. When gold starts to rally in dollar terms ( let alone in Rand ) HGMCY will apprciate the most if relative past perfomrance is any guide.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 17:41 - ID#222231)
mapleman, hope this helps you understand the wheelers, dealers.

Delete en from Url ( golden to gold )
Comments from anyone?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 17:42 - ID#222231)
mapleman, hope this helps you understand the wheelers, dealers.

Delete en from Url ( golden to gold )
Comments from anyone?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 17:50 - ID#222231)
Bart & all
Excusemwah for double post. Please do not comment on my spelling.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 18:02 - ID#43349)
Yes, she is doing very well. Glad to see you back.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 18:06 - ID#255283)
The Value of Gold
It is completely unrealistic to take the current gold price in US$ as any reliable measure for the value of gold. It is a completely politically manipulated price situation.

There are approximately 130,000 tons of gold over ground. Around one third of this gold is held by CBs. Let's assume there are 100,000 tons left for private gold owners. If we calculate one ton = 32,000 ounces we have only 3.2 bn ounces left for 6.5 bn people on the globe. Which means in average half an ounce for each person. Now, we all know that there are private gold owners who own hundreds of thousands of ounces, maybe even millions. My guess is that only 10% or 20% of these 6.5 bn people own any gold, some a lot, some just a few ounces, and the rest of mankind doesn't own any gold at all. But those who own some of it consider it a store of wealth.

Buy as long as it is so cheap. It will not stay so cheap for ever.

Besides the fact that I do not consider the $-price of gold an adequate measure for the value of gold, I find the speculation about the question extremely exciting, why we are so lucky that politically very powerful forces keep the gold price at this ridiculous low level ( so we can buy it so cheap! ) . These political forces do not want for us us to buy it so cheap. They want us to sell it.

But the major reason is, I think, the rivalry between gold and the US$ in their competition as the most important reserve asset for currencies.
This is the reason for the war against gold. The financial oligarchy, who has the monopoly to create dollars, hates those who appreciate gold, even though the oligarchs secretly accumulate it. The oligarchy knows that the time of the fiat dollar will run out soon. It would basically only take one of these countries which suffer under the dollar imperialism, like Malaysia or Indonesia, or any other country to break out of the dollar system and rely on gold. Such an example would turn the situation around. Maybe this will happen sooner than we think.

Such an event is not predictable through charts. Therefore I do not believe in gold charts. The gold price is a question of financial and political power. The COMEX "market" serves as a mask.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 18:11 - ID#43460)
Grizz, not much use for gold?
That's like saying oxygen doesn't have much use except to support fire and to breath. Try substituting nitrogen, which is more common and cheaper and see what happens. ( &-^* )

Here's the WGC link which has some more links to uses. Standard disclaimer applies.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 18:17 - ID#253246)
Sharefin****************Montana Bear


Can you brief us of Jim Stacks latest gold comments.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:11 - ID#224151)
Tweet Tweet
RJ. Re your 12:35.....I always thot you were for the birds! ( sorry I couldn't resist that ) .Got many fine feathered friends in may back yard too....including several GOLDfinches. That last bit is for Bart.....I don't want to get 404'd.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:19 - ID#220325)
AKAU and Advanced Get
Tor reinforce your thinking on advanced GET! One of most prominent and accurate contributors to this site uses this program. I enquired about it and it is $2700. U.S. and that comes to about $10,000 dollars in Canadian Pesos, ( if not now then in the near future ) .

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:23 - ID#210235)
Well, to your #1, the first Roman numerals were put on English coins by Henry VIII in 1538. There may be a story here, as he was forced to debase his coins in the 1520's, when he reduced the amount of gold and silver in his coins to compete with the foreign pieces circulating throughout England. When he discovered the profits he got from debasing them, he stepped up the process, all the way to a coin that was only 1/3 silver and 2/3 copper. The copper rubbed through on the nose of his face on the coin gaining him the nickname "Old Coppernose". I suppose he dated these debased coins to quickly determine their value, as the same markings were used for over 20 years, from 1526. The first Arabic numerals on an English coin were by Edward VI in 1551.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:33 - ID#255284)
Take a bow! You got Q.1.

As this is not a philatelist site, I give y'all Q.2, the Penny Black of 1840 was the first Government issued postage stamp. Best not ignore stamps as a store of value, as well as being easily hidden and transportable.

Only Q.s 3 & 4 to go..

And I think everyone's gonna sit up and take notice on the "worth" of the pound today.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:34 - ID#431366)
Gagnrad - you have been fondling Gold too much lately
You may live in a world that is far removed from common folk.
Its use around here is still limited to jewelry, heirlooms,
dental fillings, electronics and industrial applications.
It is not needed for survival. You can't eat, drink or breath it
- well I suppose you could but in one end, out the other
- no value to it ( no calories, moisture or oxygen ) .
You can't even use it to buy food, drink, fuel, or medicine.

Sure there is a market for it - for luxury purchases.
And speculators like to play financial games with it.

P.S. I checked out the url you posted.
It doesn't change the fact that as it's monetary purpose is diminished
its only value will be on the same order of magnitude as Silver.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:37 - ID#412286)
Friends who are US people working in France say the French view gold as extremely important and the US dollar as an eventual joke. They say without gold there is no currency and that when the US ultimately falls into trouble ..WATCH!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:43 - ID#147201)
Promey re your coin answer
Exceptional info and history. Do you have "much" of this? Or maybe references, I am trying to find out what the smallest ( lowest weight ) gold coin ever issued. Like to hear more, thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:47 - ID#252150)
One million parasites
From Barron's:

Gene Epstein asks: " ... If information technology has made us so smart, then
why aren't we rich?" He then asserts that we are a lot richer than the numbers

On the contrary, I think we are less rich than the computer revolution
promises to make us, because our economy labors under the dead weight of
one million lawyers. They don't invent, innovate, build things, create wealth,
cure disease, educate the young or create art. Instead, they are skilled at lying,
cheating, and stealing wealth from legitimate owners, and they dominate the
political predator class.

We have roughly 6% of the world's population but 70% of the world's
lawyers. A less efficient society, one less computerized, would collapse under
this burden. That's exactly what happened to Russia, whose commissars filled
the same ecological niche, and whose greed killed their golden goose.

We don't have legitimate work for even one-tenth the number of lawyers we
already have. Witness the many regulatory bureaucracies they have spawned,
the mindless obscenity called the tax code they erected, and the alarming
spread of baseless business shakedowns they pursue with a blind voracity.
Will we allow the unchecked spread of lawyers to deny us the benefits of the
information revolution? It's already happening!

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:54 - ID#263254)
Thanks again for your assistance. Here is an email address for you
to send info:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 19:55 - ID#37292)
Just a wee comment re Alberich post...
It is my opinion that what the price of gold is and what it should be relative to the "completely politically manipulated price situation" may be true in fundamental sense; however, we must deal as buyers/sellers/traders with what is, and not what should be. If I, living here in the Texas oven place an order to buy a contract of gold for Monday morning execution on Comex, and a Mr. Smith in Oregon places to sell a contract of gold on Monday morning on Comex, and our orders happen to be crossed in the pit, our floor trader reps taking each other's names and tossing the chit into the basket to be reported worldwide within a few seconds, I submit that a willing buyer and a willing seller made a market for that moment without any interference from any outside political influence. That was just the price for the moment, quoted in US$, and two non-political souls just trying to make a buck or two met on paper as two ships passing in the night, unknown to each other.

The fact that you don't consider the price of gold to be an adequate measure for the value of gold is immaterial to the issue in that that is what it traded for, in the dreaded US$ right then, and the rest of the world recognizes it, acknowledges it, and plans their own strategies on it.

So the question arises whether charts make the market or whether the market makes the charts. I submit that both events occur simultaneously. Technical trading constitutes at least half, probably more, of all contracts changing hands; action hinges on support and resistance derived from charts that actual trades caused to exist. All computer model trading programs are based on volume, stochastics, support, resistance, open interest, put and call volume on the underlying contract, delivery notice days, etc. People around the world are busy with rulers making bars, graphs, candlesticks, figuring moving averages on any number of day configuations, doing fibonacci numbers, plotting astrological charts, and praying to their respective supreme beings.

So yes, COMEX does serve as a mask, but not a one-dimensional political ploy against any of us personally. The contract does not know who owns it, therefore how could it know the owners political bent? Trading gold is one of the most impersonal, non-political events in the world, reflecting only what happens when two strangers meet on the 6th floor of the World Trade Center, both having only an account number. No one brings to the floor their financial statement, religious orientation, political bent, or other creditials that identify them as unique at that moment.

But....the techie, including me, will always tell you that fundamentals win in the end -- and a techie is always ready on moments notice to change directions to whichever way the wind blows the strongest at the moment. Good luck to you in your gold investments sir, and I hope you will wish the same to me.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 20:09 - ID#432221)
the good old days?
I remember that back
toward the end of the Jimmy Carter presidency that the interest rates were
up to 15 ton 20 percent PER YEAR and the obvious thought was "What about
savings? What good will 10% interest paid out do if the inflation rate is
20%? I remember there being a certain slyness and smugness in some
politicians manner about the inflation rate. "Why worry? Everything will
grow with the inflation rate. The truth was that it was a clever way of
taxing without having to go to the people and ask permission. "As long as
wages went up we got nothing to complain about, right?" We got good raises
back then. But it still didn't quite equal the rate of inflation. When
you compared what you made this year to what you were making five years ago
you felt good and prosperous. If you were buying a house you were doubly
fortunate. The monthly payments grew less and less as a percentage of the
total income. Those were good times----NOBODY saved money. Nobody wanted
to. It was a losing proposition.

Then Ragen got elected and got a grip. Actually federal spending shot up
but inflation was brought under control by a recession. We went barreling
on, spending and spending and ( actually ) giving money away. We ( as a
government ) gave money away in the war on poverty. In entitlements. In
welfare. In workfare. In AFDC. In WIC. In endowments to the "Arts"
( actually very little ) . In research to help people stop spreading incurable
diseases with needles and penises.

What a puzzle that all the economic stuff has turned around since Clinton
became president. Did he make it happen ( as he would like for you to
believe ) . Did it happen in spite of him ( as the republicans would like for
you to believe0 or did it happen because neither side could have their way
and the lesser of the two evils was the way we needed to go? Are we there?
Is the machinery now stable and will it go on with another decade of quiet
prosperity with little more than an occasional oiling of the grand gears?

Can we depend on what we have or are we balanced on the head of a pin
waiting for the slightest puff to send us down the slope to ruination?
That's the question, isn't it. Is this stable or not? Is there a future
or not? Will plans laid today work in tomorrow's economy?

I wish I could see the future--I think.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 20:21 - ID#255284)
Good in spots, like the curate's egg....

Sounds like you might agree with Larry Williams? He was asked in an interview:

You say you don't believe in technical analysis. What are the good things and the bad things about technical analysis as far as you're concerned?"

Contextual Trader Larry Williams:
The good thing is, clearly, technical analysis works, but the bad thing is, clearly, it doesn't work very often.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 20:51 - ID#43460)
Grizz, don't judge a man by the posts he makes.
My perspectives on the subject may be different, but it is dangerous to assume anything about any poster on the internet. You would never recognize me, nor aurator, nor Another nor even Bart on the street and can't guess my race, age nor social position, except by my posts. But even then it would be wise to always be mindful of Villanueva's First Law of Nature: Everybody lies. IMHO

But on the subject of the neccessity of gold, I'll make a point I first discussed last summer. IMHO gold is all that you say it is but its real value is that it has a well established tradition for the last 6000 years of recorded histoy as being the universal means for buying soldiers and arms. The equation is simple, from all the civilizations and all the major tribes of history, gold=armies=weapons=power. For the common man you are right about the other uses ( but IMHO not in the raw amount needed, just as you would underestimate the amount of water needed to sustain a civilized man ) but for nations gold is needed for survival. Of course the internationalists, UNists etc are trying to downplay that role but that is all part of the game. IMHO

(Sat Jul 11 1998 20:52 - ID#26793)
Some interesting information from my new database toy.
There have been 129 trading days thus far in 1998. Spot gold closed above $300 on 40 of them and below $300 on the other 89.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 20:59 - ID#287358)
Great Latvian site...
What great humor. I really got a kick about the priest who walked
out of the carpet store with a rolled up carpet on his shoulder. Who
questions a priest? Haha % ) ) And the troll who lived at the bottom of
the wishing well, who yelled upward, "Stop with the ( gold and silver )
coins already. Toss me a sandwich." ROTF, Latving MAO.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:01 - ID#26793)
More information on 1998 gold prices
The average closing price thus far for 1998 is $297.097. The 1998 high was on April 23, 1998, at $313.19. The low was on January 12, 1998, at $276.85

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:01 - ID#255283)
@Texasgoldpost: Thank you for your comments to my post.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I think in "normal" markets you are perfectly right. The individual investor, even the small one, can feel to act in a stream, in a trend. Of course can be wrong about it.

But when you compare the LBMA ( London Bullion Market Association ( ?did I get that right? ) where 10 times the amount of gold is turned over every day compared to COMEX, and when you compare the giant possibilities to the dwarf like possibilities ( like myself, trading sometimes a couple of options and less often a contract ) ...

Gold is not a "normal" commodity. Actually, it is by nature not a commodity at all. Maybe, just the fraction of gold which goes into jewelry plays the commodity role of gold. The rest of gold's character is money with intrinsic value, property, kind of abstract and incarnated at the same time. Paper has to be realized. Paper is always a risk. Gold is real in itself. Gold is risk-free. It only can become more valuable.
More children are born every year than ounces of gold are mined. It will become more rare and more attractive every year.

I wish you wealth and good luck in your trading. And don't forget to buy the physical stuff as long as it is so cheap.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:10 - ID#43460)
Am I so far out in left field with my conjecture about basic importance of gold transcending mundane use? Grizz seems to think so.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:14 - ID#255284)
Grizz, here's another look at precious metals' value down the centuries

( 3 ) When first issued, there were 240 pennies in a pound. What was the penny made from, and how much did it weigh?

A. Silver. It weighed 1/240 of a pound. (  ) ( that was a gimme ) The silver penny was first issued over 1200 years ago, in 760 C.E.

( 4 ) How much would that pound be worth today?

A. 1 Pound (  ) = 12.000 Tr Oz @ $5.29 = $ 65.48

and a penny ( denari ) = US$ 0.27

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:20 - ID#147201)
gagnrad re your 20:51
Enjoyed your's and Grizz's repartee. What's the URL you gave Grizz? Are you a student of human nature? If necessary, email me Thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:25 - ID#255284)

"good as gold"
"good as paper"
"heart of gold"
"heart of paper"
Don't worry that you feel far out in left field. There's gonna be a time when the herds stampede to join you, you'll be thankful you got out there early to look at the view.

"all that glitters is not gold"

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:51 - ID#43460)
chas re URL
That's an easy one, the WGC link. As for human nature, I'm a student of everything and Everyman is my teacher. Just a harmless passing fool, nothing more. Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain. ) 8-^} )

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:53 - ID#432148)
EMU - euro and Inflation-Deflation
The Current Yield column in the 7-13 Barrons covers the EMU -euro problems well. My take is success is not over 50%. Also an interesting quote in column from Marilyn Schaja of DLJ: "The inflation outlook is fine, bit it's important to realize that the deflation story is over". My take is still 50-50 as to which way the coin drops. Any comments?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 21:55 - ID#147201)
Money part II
Gresham's Law, the unspoken portion. There must be some philosophical phase to human nature. Back about 600BC the population had to be familiar with the idea of "BEYOND THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE". The sign of this is the fact that they could distinguish between 2 or more coin's value. Gresham didn't express till late 17 or 1800,s. I have scoured Wells, Toynbee, Ridgeway and others and there is plenty evidence that "The Law" was operating. If they ( the population which was near 100% illiterate ) could not consider the foreseeable future, there would be no Gresham's Law. In Gresham's time, it is fair to say that the population was near 80%+ illiterate. This unspoken portion of Gresham implies that the population is not all unintelligible about math and money. The population includes eveybody who uses money. If they could discern problems in the time of Croesus, how about now. My experience with dealing in gold in the late 70.s up to Jan 80, flea markets and prospectors ( including recreational types ) leads me to believe that the current population is aware of the value of gold. Maybe not the "tech" value, but they have the same innate capabilities that the "ancient" population had. This is the bottom line, human nature has not changed that much. More later

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:01 - ID#147201)
gagnrad behind the curtain
I would appreciate it if you would read my 21:51 tonite and give me a critique. Good on post. Bad email--thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:04 - ID#401460)
4th Qtr will be a Ball Buster!

Saturday July 11, 10:53 am Eastern Time

New York Times reports Rubin may leave his post

WASHINGTON, July 11 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin's closest confidants say he will decide within the next few months whether to leave the Clinton administration, the New York Times reported on Saturday.

Pulling together what it frankly acknowledges as rumors that the secretary will leave, the Times said that they differ from rumors of the past in that they are ``emanating from some of the secretary's Cabinet colleagues.''

It quotes several of these colleagues, none of them identified.

``He wanted to go months ago but he couldn't resign while Asia was coming unhinged,'' one is quoted as saying.

``The week after the midterm elections'' in November of this year is when he will leave or announce plans to leave, another is quoted as saying.

And a third said it is widely assumed that Rubin will leave, although no one had heard from him directly.

``His closest confidants say Mr. Rubin will decide in the next few months, perhaps while fly fishing this summer,'' whether to retain his job or leave,`` the story said.

The piece reports that midlevel Treasury officials are already handicapping chances for successors, such as Rubin's
deputy, Lawrence Summers; James Johnson, the departing head of Fannie Mae; and Franklin Raines, who resigned as director of the Office of Management and Budget to succeed Johnson as head of Fannie Mae.

But Rubin himself has revealed little. The Times quotes him as saying: ``There are a lot of important and interesting issues I'd like to be involved in going forward. On the other hand, there are countervailing considerations.''

He also said: ``I'll do what seems to be appropriate and not do what doesn't seem appropriate.''

The piece also weighs the chances that he could be persuaded to stay by a combination of presidential arm twisting and fears that markets could be adversely affected.

It counterbalances that speculation by noting that Rubin has had some major frustrations in his job recently.

Federal judges have turned down the Treasury Department's efforts to create a ``protective function privilege'' for its Secret Service officers who protect the president, to prevent them from testifying before Kenneth Starr's grand jury on
what they may have seen between Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.

And, the paper said, Rubin opposed a bill overhauling the Internal Revenue Service until it became clear that the measure would pass. Then he altered his position.

And finally, Rubin has been unable to convince Congress to contribute to the International Monetary Fund at a level he considers necessary to fight against economic problems in Asia, Russia and Latin America.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:07 - ID#36978)
for Alberich.....
agree with your position that everyone ought to have a little physical supply buried in the tomato can in the back yard ( don't forget to tell a trusted somebody where it is ) as a little golden insurance policy and get out of jail free card. Not too sure I agree that gold is risk-free -- I just called the neighbor to tell him that; he invited me to come over and look at his fistfull of K-rands again bot at 685/ much for buy and hold.

I've got another problem or two philosophically with some recent postings that I don't fully understand. Perhaps the authors of a couple of postings regarding their current disfavor for gold but leaning towards silver being a decent buy can advise. In the same and previous postings, reference is made to the usefulness of precious metal during crisis as a medium of exchange when paper fails, as a ticket away from the action to safer ground, as a barter tool for human necessities, etc....How do these people see themselves running across the tarmac to catch the plane to Geneva with $25 grand worth of silver. How about a hundred grand? Those of you prone to calculate can figure the weight and how many trips from the terminal it would take -- would it fit under your seat? Can your wife carry 5-600 pounds as her part? Or will you just leave her there to guard it while you guard your rear with your AK-47?

But the same persons wish not to so much buy the physical silver but to buy options or futures contracts, as you also have suggested, and then speak ill of paper having no value. An option or a futures contract IS paper -- only the right to buy the physical ( or sell, of course in the case of a put ) . If the trade goes their way, they in no way intend to take delivery, rather to take the profit on the paper contract. I do not understand.

Speaking of incongruous throught and cognitive dissonance, I also have a neighbor who leans a little towards militarism and anti-government who takes every precaution known to man to insure anonymity, has a couple of guns stashed for protection ( ? ) , has his metals stash in three places just in case access to one is blocked when it hits the fan, etc..... He has thought of just about every thing, including the required 100 gallons of gasoline in the garage. Here it comes....are you ready? He and his wife have passports, but none for the two kids. He was trying to save a hundred bucks or so and didn't get them when he got his and the spouse. What a thoughtful person to leave the kids on the tarmac, maybe they can shuttle the silver to the plane before they all wave bye-bye.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:16 - ID#43460)
chas re Gresham's law
I wonder at the effect of debt on this? One would think that a world of independantly acting selfish people would tend to use debt more and more as being the most corrupt of possible currencies? People I know think of gold as too valuable to waste on common neccessities. The most primitive in civilized countries i.e. prisoners and mental patients use tobacco and sex as trade goods. IMHO

Gold ( or gold backed currency ) is used to buy expensive neccessities such as in 1939 Oerlikon rapid fire cannons used to shoot down Nazi warplanes over London. IMHO

Here is an URL which might help re human nature and game theory.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:17 - ID#30116)
In Barron's Market Laboratory, the Foreign Holders of U.S. Debt dropped by 9.883 Billion dollars last week. Somebody has been doing some selling.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:27 - ID#317193)
I am quite tired of gold going down in value and seeing PURPLE on this site. I do hereby decree that gold rise in value to at least $320. I have had enough and Im not taking it anymore.: )

Went Gold...time to reverse. nough said.


(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:33 - ID#147201)
gagnrad re URL etc
Quite some site. I really appreciate this. Re my post, it was a generalization w/o T?A or tech applications. That site may well change this. Many thanx, Charlie

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:36 - ID#207145)
When to buy Gold?
How bout when it quits falling. How bout a position at the October lows? I suggest Oil drillers and Asian Funds. October lows will be lower than waiting till Jan. 1st for Europe to start.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:38 - ID#30116)
The Fed page...
For those truely curious about the numbers........

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:39 - ID#30116)
The Fed page.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:44 - ID#207145)
October lows for a poiition in gold,
then wait till january starts for an adittional third, if all is well. The final third could be used when things jell. Same strategy applies to Oil drillers , and Asia. These investments have been hurt the most by Asia, and will gain the most after a bottom is in place in Asian economys. These investments will be counter cyclical and will go up as Wall Street is falling.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:45 - ID#284255)
The Penny Black come on sheets of 144 stamps in 1840.
They changed the colour to blue to highlight the cancelations after a few years.
# 77 of the set was the valuable one.
The number of the stamp was positioned on the borders at the sides.

Dad was a philatelist in his younger days of note.
Knows volumes on the subject.
More than you would want to hear.
He had a room full of stamps but sold all at a crisis stage of life.
For a tenth of what they were worth.
Such a shame.
I have a very rare collection of lighthouses of the world.
All mounted beautifully.
Also have a set of first day covers of the NZ lighthouses.
These where sent to the respective lighthouses where the where franked and then forwarded to me.
This could well be a one off set in the world.

Bufford - here's a bit of it.
James Stack

We have the type of "DISTRIBUTION" that normally accompanies a bear market.
On the speculation front, NOTHING in our memory ( except perhaps the gold
stock blow-off back in 1980 ) can rival the froth in this week's Internet
issues. This thing is really set up to end with a "bang."

The ONLY missing ingredient for OUR conviction of a bear market is a
monetary trigger. we just are sure that the final "trigger" for this bear
can come from souring earnings. IF Asia stabilizes, or IF the German or
Japanese central banks raise their Discount Rate ( something which BOTH have
hinted at in the past couple weeks ) , then the bear will be underway. Until
then, we just can't underestimate how frothy this top can become.

Our position in the gold stocks is a small one which we view as much as
insurance as a contrarian investment. Consequently, we hope to maintain it
as long as the Fed is letting money supply growth run away.

One could/would well be in a great position in these coming years.
To have no debt and to be cashed/golded up to take advantage of the times.
I believe there will be many good businesses folding.
Not necessesarily because of Y2k but more so because the owners never tidied up their debt balance.
They will get caught in the squeeze and rolled.

Cheap bargains for astute and ready entrepreneurs. ( sp )

Truly a good time to be averaging into real assets and out of paper debt.
Steady steady.
Yesterday was fantastic.
Friends abound and we acheived a weeks worth of painting in one day.
At this rate all could be ready in two weeks.
Then my personal freedom comes beckoning.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:47 - ID#284255)
Bit more from J. Stack
The OTC Nasdaq Index rose the equivalent of 230 DJIA points this week, while
the OTC Advance-Decline line fell on 4 of the 5 days AND closed down for the
week. Ask this key question: When has the Nasdaq hit a new yearly high ( or
all-time high ) AND seen the Advance-Decline divergence that has occurred
since ITS peak last October? Even when adjusted for the increasing total
number of issues, there is only one prior instance in Nasdaq history... Dec
1972-Jan 1973, at the start of the biggest bear of the past 50 years.
The NY Advance-Decline line peaked 3 months ago. When has IT seen this
negative a divergence AND the S&P 500 hit a new yearly high? 6 times... 2
were in the first year of a new bull market ( where breadth will normally
lag ) ... 1 series was in the first half of the 1950's... and the 2 most
notable instances: 1929 and 1972. That gives you a clue as to how serious
this breadth deterioration might be.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:47 - ID#287279)
Read and take to heart.

Y2K bug: Double whammy for Asia?
Asia has failed to prepare for the year 2000 computer bug which will hit as it struggles out of recession, crippling vital industries and risking
outbreaks of civil unrest, an Australian expert said yesterday.
The chairman of the Australian government's Year 2000 steering committee,
Maurice Newman, said the more pressing crisis of the regional downturn had left Asian nations without the time or money to address the computer problem.
Most at risk were sectors including banking, telecommunications, electricity, water and sewerage, air travel and medical services.
On a basic level, distribution channels could dry up and jeopardise food
supplies, and unemployment could soar as businesses hamstrung by faulty
computers were forced to close.
"All of those things have the makings of social unrest," Mr Newman warned.

Notice the use of the past tense. "Asia has failed...." No duh. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear could have figured that out six months ago. It was always grade school math. Sooner or later the general public will become aware of how bad the situation really is and then.... Let the Panics begin.
What a laughable understatement, there. "The makings of social unrest". LOL
LOL And drive by shootists are 'disaffected youths'. LOL LOL
It is inevitable. It is unavoidable. It is written in stone.
The US is utterly dependent upon Asia for the health of its
economy. When Asia goes the whole world goes right along with it.
Paul Milne


(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:48 - ID#207145)
Counter cyclical?
Yes. Gold, Oil drillers, and Asian funds will go up as Wall Street drifts or falls lower.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:48 - ID#347267)
EURO as viable currency
Sorry if already posted:

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:49 - ID#287279)
From Sunday's front page of the NYT.

July 12, 1998

Wall Street to Turn Clock Ahead to See if Year 2000 Computes

NEW YORK -- For computer wizards on Wall Street, Monday of this week will be
Dec. 29, 1999, a step into electronic time travel that will be studied
anxiously around the globe.

After months of preparation, the United States' leading brokers, major
exchanges, clearinghouses and depository companies will begin mock trading
in the widest-ranging test yet by any industry of how well computers will
cope with the transition to the next century.

The tests, sponsored by the Securities Industry Association, are designed to
help brokers and other key players in the $270 billion industry figure out
whether their computer systems are ready to handle trades that will settle
on Jan. 3, 2000, the first business day of the new century.

Over the next two weeks, the industry will reset the clocks on the test
computers and investigate what might happen to anyone trading stocks,
options or corporate and municipal bonds on Dec. 30 and 31, 1999, and Jan. 3
and 4, 2000.

Not much has been left to chance. The multimillion-dollar effort is
supervised by Coopers & Lybrand following trading scripts carefully
developed by the participants with the help of outside consultants.

Thus, Leonard De Trizio, vice president at J.P. Morgan & Co. in charge of
the computers that support equity trading, knows that he will be selling 800
shares of a fictional Big Board company with the ticker symbol KDD at 9:30
Monday morning, and he knows that Morgan Stanley will be buying it, while
Merrill Lynch & Co. will be selling Home Shopping Network convertible bonds
to Lehman Brothers.

The participants are looking for signs of what is widely known as the
millennium bug, the catchall name for a variety of electronic foul-ups that
are likely to occur when computers fail to recognize that the first days of
the new century come after the last days of the old one. The problem stems
from the way many microprocessors and computer programs use only two digits
to refer to the year in dates -- 98 for 1998, for example.

Many chips and programs do not accept a low number like 00 for the year 2000
or 01 for 2001 as valid dates that follow the 99 for 1999.

What complicates the problem is that computers often react to these
unrecognized years in unpredictable ways. Some spew inaccurate data. Others
make faulty calculations. Some crash immediately. Others appear to function
normally but then cannot be restarted once they have been shut down.

Computer specialists have talked about the millennium problem for decades.
But only recently have businesses and public officials begun to recognize
how widely dates are used in computing and to take seriously warnings that
the dawn of the new century could see widespread disruptions in daily life,
at the very least, and deadly accidents or perhaps a global economic
recession if the millennium problem is not tamed.

Because the securities industry is the first to conduct tests involving
connections between many computer users and is publishing vast amounts of
information about the results on its World Wide Web site, year 2000 experts
say that the results of these tests could end up having a huge effect on
morale in the rapidly growing legions of specialists working on the problem.

"It's good that they are setting a standard of openness for the entire
corporate sector," said Edward Yardeni, chief economist of Deutsche Bank
Securities. Yardeni has become one of the highest-profile year 2000
pessimists, predicting a 70 percent chance of worldwide recession stemming
from computer problems related to the millennium.

"If it goes badly, though, corporations may be more reluctant to share
information, and more people are going to come around to my view of the
risks," Yardeni said.

Those managing the securities tests are discouraging any attempt to draw
broad conclusions from them. The managers point out, for example, that the
tests will deal with very small volumes of fictional securities, and they
describe the exercise as a mere dress rehearsal for high-volume tests
planned for next spring. Some major computer systems have been completely
excluded, including those that manage dividends and interest, margin trading
and client account records.

In addition, only the most common types of trades and securities will be
tested this week, although separate tests have been scheduled for government
bonds and a limited test has already been run on mortgage-backed securities.

"Dealing with this isn't rocket science, but there is a mountain of
details," said Donald Kittell, the association's executive vice president.
"People don't realize that a trade may go through 40 to 50 steps from start
to finish."

The securities companies participating in the test that starts Sunday
account for about half the trading volume in stocks, bonds, options and
other major financial instruments. Each agreed to set up a discrete computer
operation to run the tests. In the United States alone, securities companies
are expected to spend $3 billion to $5 billion addressing year 2000 and
related computer problems.

Yet, when the millennium actually arrives, Wall Street's ability to function
will depend not just on the internal systems it began to test today but on
the preparedness of markets overseas, where many players offset any bets
placed domestically.

What is more, Wall Street's success at ushering in the millennium will also
depend heavily on the year 2000 readiness of New York City's power, water
and telecommunications utilities, of the elevators leading to the trading
rooms and of countless other systems that are beyond its ability to test.

All of this underscores what many computer experts consider one of the most
troubling aspects of the year 2000 challenge. Each phase of the millennium
problem -- from identifying vulnerable systems to figuring out remedies to
testing fixes -- has proved more complicated, time-consuming and expensive
than had been expected. The emerging consensus has been that testing has
been the most widely underestimated challenge.

Consultants are consistently warning that very few corporations, government
agencies or other computer-dependent enterprises will end up having enough
time and resources to do as much testing as they should. And even the best
testing programs can only check through a fraction of the scenarios that
computers will encounter in daily operations in the new century.

"It would be a setback if this doesn't go well," said William Ulrich, a year
2000 consultant in Soquel, Calif., "because these guys are way out in

Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:52 - ID#207145)
Right now there is no value
none in any stock. September, October and all of 1999 will discount U.S. stocks by 25%. Sound scary. No just a normal Bear Market.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:54 - ID#284255)
Avid chatter
bubbles can keep going on for years. It's impossible to say if it's
about to pop, or still has another 15 months left. That's why this Japanese
election is important. It has the *potential* to serve as a pin. Markets
never go down simply because they are over-valued. They keep getting more
over-valued until some external event shocks the market back to reality. We
got close last October, and again April-June. I'm still not sure if this
rally is the eye of the hurricane or the start of a new leg up, but my longs
are only a 10% position right now, and my finger is on the trigger to
reverse at the first sign that my initial instinct to short two weeks ago
was correct.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:56 - ID#20338)

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:57 - ID#28994)
The word Oerlikon just made my day,,,,,,,,have not heard that in years.
A bit of Bren would bring a tear to my eye.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:57 - ID#207145)
1005 liquid, and wait for
the whites of their eyes. It could take a year, although I don't think so.
We are on the thrshhold of a great, once in a lifetime buying opportunity in commodities. But we must wait till we see the whites of their eyes, lest we waste ammunition.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 22:57 - ID#284173)

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:03 - ID#207145)
If you look at a Japan chart, it hasn't tested resistance the first time yet and 17,300 is the best you can hope for, as work must be done before a breakout could be contemplated. Sounds reasonable to put in 10 %...
I think youre on track to double or triple.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:07 - ID#43349)

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:10 - ID#207145)
Unless your 10% is fairly big stake, I would leave the money there. It will force you to be smart. Japan is a gold mine, along with Asia, Gold and Oil drillers. They all have maximum value more or less. I need some confirmation , as I have lost all I need to lose at this point. I have knives all over. A collection. I prefer to be a little late.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:14 - ID#207145)
Warburg Pincus Japan Growth
Has been a great Japan Fund Sharefin, and one that won't lose you money this year. It has lost little the last year or so.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:16 - ID#43349)
Next week
This next week could be interesting. The Japanese elections will be over and the BIS is in Japan. Many comments may be made that might not have been discussed openly before the elections. Comments that could easily impcay the yen/dollar one way or another.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:20 - ID#207145)
Good for Japan, Yen, Goul, for the most part till 23rd, then pack it in, along with all those good intentions. By the way, the next direction of rates is up. Isay this because rates are so low, stocks, housing etc will keep gaining momentum.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:23 - ID#207145)
Sorry bout the spelling Gollum,
My daughter eats over the key board. Good excuse,huh? Low rates will cook our goose sooner or later.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:26 - ID#43349)
Sometime we are going to start hearing about the true magnituge of the Japanese banking problems. On the other hand with all those major players in international banking there maybe something constructive will be worked out.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:29 - ID#207145)
I believe our market will crack
On or about the 22nd-23rd of July. This goes for Japan, Europe Korea, etc. Our profits can't support these prices. THIS IS A SUCKER RALLY. That's my guess. I've been wrong for 3 years. I got scared very recently.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:30 - ID#284173)
hello again

Haven't posted for a few months, but have been reading posts here and submissions to "golden-eagle" with great interest. Since last post have increased physical silver holding somewhat and have also bought some shares in AURORA GOLD.

I chose Aurora because they have a large interest in silver mining in Indonesia as well as gold mining in Australia. I felt their price when I bought them a couple of weeks ago ( A$1.17 ) represented good value - discounted because a lot of people have "run the other way" because of the situation in Indonesia - and that I understand they are reasonably leveraged to the price of gold and silver.

My broker has them down as a "HOLD" rather than a buy, but added that this would have been a strong "BUY" if things were better in Indonesia. ( AUG ) .

Next week I plan to buy silver call options with the intention ( if all goes to plan ) of excercising them and selling in the futures market.

March 575 looks attractive. Would appreciate any comments.

On another note, and also sticking my neck out a mile, my impression is that in the near future there is going to be a massive transfer of wealth out of the USA and into the Euro/European currencies. The US$ down - the Euro/European currencies up.

Of course this would most likely mean the price of gold would also rise in US$ terms as gold is defined in US dollars.

Being an Aussie resident, I wonder what influence this would have on the AUS$? My guess is that it would follow the US$ and the Euro would also increase substantially against the AUS$.

From an Australian perspective this could make investments in Euro-denominated assets as well as PMs most attractive. I would very much appreciate any comments.

Regards, Scarface.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:33 - ID#43349)
Japanese elections

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:33 - ID#207145)
I think you're right. Japan will move at it's own pace in this matter tho, and we will be dissapointed as we are wont to be. Our markets are on the verge.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:37 - ID#257148)
answer only if you're comfortable, In what form is your silver physical?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:38 - ID#43349)
I won't argue with that. The market has been very week. The so called summer rally has no bredth and cannot sustain any soild gains although it has tried many times in the last couple of weeks. They can't go on in the face of declining earnigs and crises a;; over the world much longer.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:42 - ID#284173)

Thanks for response.

My silver is in the form of "Perth Mint" unallocated certificates. These can be exchanged at short notice provided I pay a fabrication cost.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:43 - ID#207145)
2nd quarter GDP due 30th of July.
Circle that date. It may be a shocker. I am worried about our markets. Low rates can and have done wonders for us. Things are dire. Of course i'm playing the damn thing, buy we are living on borrowed time. Japan will be o.k., as Sandy Weil over at Travelers has invested there already recently.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:47 - ID#207145)
Lot of money dumped into market
Lately Gollum. I figured i would play musical chairs again. Jerry Favor is a great tec. analyst. He's calling for a top on the 22nd give or take 2 days. He is uncanny.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:50 - ID#207145)
Majick numbers for market,
9300, and 9600, and of course 9212.

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:53 - ID#285121)
Blooper / Japan
If our market does tank Japan will know they have lost a major customer as Americas spending will naturally come to a screeeeeaching halt, and Japan will tank again. IMHO

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:59 - ID#257148)
How many questions?
Who guarantees these Perth Mint Certificates? Is it the Mint or the Federal Gobmint?
How much is the fabrication cost per ? What about delivery? Where can you trade the certificates?

Ever seen a 1 kilo kookaburra?

Sick of questions?

(Sat Jul 11 1998 23:59 - ID#207145)
I recon it will take a while for us to work off this extra 20% and another 5% for over reaction. It may be Asia that hurts this market. They are due a 3rd leg. How do you keep these prices with declining profits?