Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:00 - ID#39857)
Are they rubble bonds or rumble bonds.?
I reckon if your a yank its a damn good time to pull your heads in. Don't fly. Dont drink tap water. Squeeze cans and plastic containers, looking
for syringe puncture marks. Guard your car as dearly as your
kiddies. Buy heaps of flour and eat only what you make.
Gas masks could be a good sideline if you have to make money.
And seek out your government officals and hand em over to the
Arabs. God gave you your freedom and now he will take it away.
Mother Nature has come along for the ride to kick some arse.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:01 - ID#384350)
JTF - The Fed
Let me correct my earlier post. I meant to say that these direct market interventions of the Fed buying outstanding US Treasury obligations and printing up cash for it, has no bearing on the national debt of the USG.

When the USG spends money, it sells Treasuries to the Fed. The Fed prints up cash and puts it in a sort of checking account used by the Govt, with which the US govt buys things. This is how the govt spends money. It does affect the National Debt, but it is different from direct market interventions which don't affect the debt.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:05 - ID#153102)
@From Dream House Post @Think On This
"common law ... recognize ( s ) ... only ownership and structured conveyance by the exchange of specie or by hereditary passage."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:05 - ID#57232)
I agree. Logging off!
ERLE: Yes -- the time for gold to rise is coming. Let us hope for all of our sakes it is gradual, and that AG sticks around until the Fat Lady sings. I for one am excited to be alive at such a wild time as this -- we are in the midst of a revolution every bit as great as the industrial revolution -- the awakening of the information revolution. But I am also apprehensive, as 'the awakening' allows us all to see into the future a bit better than we would have in the past. As Adam must have realizedm when he bit that apple, knowledge and wisdom does have its drawbacks.

When I think about all this, I look at our cat, and think -- yes ignorance leads to a peaceful life -- but only as long as someone knowledgable is looking out for that cat. And -- then I do not feel so worried thinking about the future.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:05 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- And ONLY when this 'Babylonian' type of system once again comes crashing down will it have a chance of being rectified. And it will take it 'special' type of people to pick the proper 'pieces' up.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:07 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- 'They' don't allow specie anymore.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:09 - ID#226299)
JTF (You may still be right)
I don't think Y2K is going to be "secondary", it's going to accelerate the trend ( down ) which is already in place, and it's not going to wait 16 more months. One of the insurance companies for which I did an assessment in 1996 will begin issuing work comp policies by hand in November of this year ( the "compliant" system will not be in until March ( if ever ) , but renewals which expire in 2000 go out at the end of October.

Y2K will get real ugly real fast. I suspect we may see a catastrophic ( and well-publicised ) failure before this market gets down much further. It's going to exacerbate the downward trend, and companies which have publicized problems ( they've happened already, but have not been catastrophic ) are going to find their stocks mercillesly savaged by this market.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:09 - ID#153102)
We are voluntarily in the system. By giving power of attorney. By applying for the status of "artificial person".

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:10 - ID#424394)
We all decry the fact that in America (and many countries
Gold is not used as common everyday circulating money.
We rant and rave, we whine and cry, we cuss and swear at fiat "money".
So tell me.
What prevents us from using Gold as money?
What prevents us from making it a defacto standard for buying groceries?
If the grocer's suppliers will accept it, grocers will accept it.
If truckers & growers will accept it, grocery suppliers will too.
If the fuel and fertilizer and equipment distributors accept it...
So we get up to multinational corporations {shutup ROR - no diversions!}
Is it in their interest to use Gold?
Could they establish a defacto Gold standard in spite of governments?
So where do we start?
How do we start returning Gold to its use as money if the retailer
down the street is willing to start the ball rolling?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:13 - ID#153102)
Nuts. I buy specie with FRN. Read the moneychanger site posted earlier.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:15 - ID#384350)
@Steve in TO, Leeson
It was Nikkei futures that collapsed when the Kobe earthquake struck that broke Barings. I have an article on it around here somewhere, I'll try to dig it up tomorrow.

Leeson was losing money for quite awhile, and his bosses kept sending money. So, was Leeson really hung out to dry? I don't think so. He didn't point a finger at anyone.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:15 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Grizz -- If I were in buiness for myself, NO problem! However...

mozel -- True enough. They sure don't make it particularly easy in escaping their grasp though, do they. That being the case, I suspect that few will manage it, even with a hearty try.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:17 - ID#424394)
Envy - yes, in America the car is sacred, the motorcycle more so
But when we can't get fuel many of us will be walking.
And "money" will be things we can eat, burn, shoot, and otherwise use.
We will be back to the basics. Luxuries will be fresh fruit & vegetables.
Come to think of it, for a lot of Americans - they are luxuries now.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:17 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- You might by it with FRNs, but try making a tax payment with it, or exchanging it over the table when buying a house. I think you will find a bit of 'difficulty' in either case.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:19 - ID#57232)
This is the perfect time to float 30year US treasuries
El_BORAK ( hope I got your ID right ) : Yes -- I agree. One of the stupidest things our ( US ) government did was to get out of the 30 year treasury business. When interest rates finally do go up, the US government will have to float all debt at rising rates, since very little of it is now long term.

I wonder -- I'll bet that most of the current demand for US treasuries is short term only. Investors may be wary in buying cheap long-term US treasuries in a country that has corporate bonds perceived to be at risk for default.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:22 - ID#153102)
The cost of a thing is proportioned to its value and as freedom is more dear than any other thing, it has the highest price. Paraphrased from Paine.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:24 - ID#424394)
Eldorado - so we start by rolling a pebble downhill.
Let's start with those who ARE in business for themselves.
If they can talk their suppliers into accepting some Gold...
Is the problem that Gold can not be readily liquified to pay bills?
Most suppliers are based in major cities. Can't they find somebody
to change the Gold into cybermoney to pay their suppliers in turn?
Many of those next-level suppliers are importers
Will these overseas suppliers/manufacturers accept Gold?
If so, then don't we have it licked - or at least have a start?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:26 - ID#153102)
@Eldorado @House
If you are not exchanging specie, you are not buying a house. You are buying the role of beneficiary in a trust. The trust owns the house. Read and re-read what I have posted today.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:26 - ID#286249)
Envy, re: your 21:43---CBs push down POG
Not quite that straightforward, but close...{:- )
POG priced in USD, yes? This is the relationship that one needs to view from various points of the circle. To whit: EMI ( way back when ) stated quite clearly that the EMU/Euro would be 'created' against the dollar and gold.

When this edict was first articulated, the USD was unraveling. How to bring it up? How to get gold down? An array of strategies were put in play, POG going downhill was a critical lever ( and a number of clever strategies were put in play just to accomplish gold's fall! ) . For example, when I first posted on Kitco-almost a year ago!-I was tracking down the G30 chaps and couldn't quite figure out WHAT the gold-guy was doing in that group. However, it did ALL make sense! Yes!

So, the dollar will be 'strong' until December 31, 1998 and gold will be 'weak' until December 31, 1998if all goes according to plan. On the other hand, if everyone runs to the same side of the ship ( Treasuries ) we could have a nasty accident before January 1999. And of course there are a number of big, nasty, dangerous stumbling blocks out there. Can 'they' head them all off? Dinna kin... {:- )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:27 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- I don't want to argue with you at all. You are correct in all of your assessments of the whole situation. I will say that in order to escape their clutches encompasses SO MUCH info, data, must-dos, crap and headaches that very very few will be able to accomplish it. Most who try will be somehow caught up in their web with one wrong word or phraseology. Hardly anybody can be a 'lawyer' to the extreme necessary to carry it off. I will consider you to be an extraordinary exception to the rule if you have, and then entertain the proposition that you write a most DETAILED book on the EXACT methodology entailed to carry it off.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:28 - ID#153102)
@Grizz @First Things First With Specie
Start with ownership of a piece of ground on which to stand.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:29 - ID#226299)
JTF - 30 Year Bonds
One of the reasons Uncle Sam went to shorter bonds was to reduce the cost of interest ( shorter terms ( usually ) makes for lower rates ) . The trend was started, I believe, when Lloyd Bentsen was still around, and since rates have trended lower since then, it has been instrumental in reducing the defecit. Unfortunately, when that trend reverses, interest costs will go through the roof, and the defecit will explode, even without new spending. More unfortunately, just like politicians don't realize where the "surplus" came from ( lower interest costs and huge capital gains from appreciating asset values ) , they will not understand why all of a sudden we have this huge defecit.

I heard Newt Gingrich crowing yesterday about how the government is going to have a surplus of 1.6 trillion dollars over the next 10 years. Boy, is HE in for a surprise.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:31 - ID#424394)
Many suppliers have sales reps that come to call periodically
It would be better for all if more face to face interaction was done.
This would also get around the problem of paying invoices in Gold.
The buyer could physically hand the seller's sales rep some bullion.
Eventually that bullion is put on a ship back to Europe or Brazil
to pay for the merchandise we imported.
Isn't Gold used for foreign exchange? So what is the hold up?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:34 - ID#57232)
A question for you
SDRer: Lets say that US ( or world corporate ) bonds are considered unsafe investments, and everyone rushes to buy US treasuries. What is the FED going to to if the interest rate difference between corporate and Federal bonds increases significantly? That seems very unstable to me. Is this what you meant by 'everyone rushing to the same side of the ship'? Comments?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:36 - ID#424394)
Mozel - let's not strangle Gold as money before it has a chance
If a customer is will to pay Gold for the beer he just bought
and the store owner is willing to accept it, and somehow we talk
Coors into accepting it as well - now we have the ball rolling.
Does Coors buy directly from grain growers? Will they accept Gold?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:36 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- 'Babylon' seriously bites ass of one who doesn't feed it. Especially when ones 'lawful' mental faculties are not yet up to par into the 'combat' mode.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:38 - ID#424394)
Eldorado - so let's get in combat mode
and help those who want to use Gold as money.
Where do we start?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:39 - ID#286249)
Grizz--re: shopping with gold
The European murabitun ( and perhaps all others for all I know ) created a fairly detailed blueprint "ways and means" to get the dirham ( gold ) into
the hands of small shopkeepers and other 'real people', down to having a "Visa-like" sticker in the window indicating--to the knowledgeable--that the shop accepted gold. At this point in time, it would probably NOT be a good idea for us to personally check this out? {:- )

Goodnight all. Lovely summer weekend to you!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:39 - ID#153102)
If you are incapable of knowing the law, you are incapable of freedom. Liberty is not absolute. It is under law. If you will have no earthly King tell you the law, you must know it yourself.

If you cannot govern yourself, someone else will tell you the law for a fee and you will do as they say, even becoming subject to another by your own hand and never knowing how you got there.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:42 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Tell it to your local judge. Not saying you are wrong, just that 'THEY' just don't seem to care!

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:44 - ID#226299)
Grizz - Where do we start?
We start by issuing a gold coing with a greater face value than it's bullion content. Only then can it be used as "cash". The best ( and worst ) thing about paper money is that it's so convenient. Paying in non-denominated gold is the same as paying in cows or Swiss francs, The fact that the seller must take an extra step to pass the gold along ( namely, finding out if HIS suppliers will accept it ) becomes a disincentive to accepting it.

Besides that, if the seller is smart, he'll just pocket the gold as his "profit" and pay his sellers in FRNs. At least that's what _I'd_ do.

Bad money drives out good.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:46 - ID#384350)
Steve in TO, Nick Leeson's Trades
It was the Nikkei, but he operated from Singapore, not Hong Kong as I earlier said. And the loss was $1.3 Billion. I found this image of some of Nick Leeson's Trades.

Note 2 candle formations, that they say were Leeson's buying. It sure looks like a PPT kind of move.

It was the Kobe earthquake that collapsed the market and wreaked havoc on Leeson and Barings. I wonder if it will be an Earthquake or possibly a suitcase bomb that will rock Wall St.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:46 - ID#286249)
JTF--"Unstable" is a fine opening chord! {:-))
This weekend I hope to get some posts done about the problems in bond options ( with regards to currency redenominations ) . JTF, in all candor, it is such an unholy mess.
Incidently, kudos on bringing the boat in! That was a good read!
Goodnight! {:- )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:48 - ID#57232)
Thoughts -- Interest rate curve
All: In the earlier days, the FED issued short term and long term treasuries, and hence controlled to some degree both long term and short term rates. I would guess that one assumption about the interest rate curve was that neither goverment or coporate securities were in default.

If a default occured in the private sector, the government could control both long term and short term rates with some success.

But now, our government in its infinite wisdom offers few securities with long term expiration dates, so the 30 year rate is pretty much left to the private sector. And -- this part could be dramatically affected by defaults, regardless of the interest rate offered. Just imagine the effects of a plummeting world wide credit rating. I would guess that long term corporate bond rates would then go up -- and not down. The buyer would then choose between the low return 'quality' bonds of the US government, and the high return 'junk' bonds of the corporate sector.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:48 - ID#226299)
Grizz - Gold Coin
That's a gold coin, of course. I don't even know what a "gold coing" would be.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:53 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Do you think that the 'government' would ever admit that one does not own their land as long as they have paid it off and continue to pay their 'protection fee' property tax?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:53 - ID#384350)
Complicity by the BOE?
This link questions the integrity of the Bank of England in their investigation of the Barings Scandal.>

(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:55 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Actually, and more appropriately', 'protection fee' should be replaced with 'rent'. Afterall, they are not the mafia. Right?

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 00:57 - ID#384350)
Try this link Re BOE complicity
and click on "uncovering the coverup"

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:00 - ID#222231)
FWIW to ALL, some interesting predictions, past and future re. BJC's fate.
Sean David Morton, whether you consider him a nut or not has made many amazing predictions regarding BJC that have come true. The Newt to become president? Look into the crystal ball.

P.S. Sean David Morton on Art Bell show tonite.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:00 - ID#190411)
I was going to make a point about the loss of confidence in corporate bonds. One MAJOR problem that I can conjure is the loss of confidence in money market paper. It is impossible for nearly anyone tied to a 401k or other instrument to switch to cash. With a liquidity squeeze, the money market funds become far riskier than the paltry interest that they pay.
One of the reasons that I went to goldstocks is that you can have no protection in IRA type instruments against a currency calamity.
Money market funds have lost vast amounts in the past: Just ask holders of short term Penn-Central paper in the 70's.
Compounding this is the newer lax standards that money market funds have adopted. Perhaps one in one hundred read the proxy materials that the funds send out. They are taking on debt paper that has a two year maturity. I thought money markets were 60 day maximum. I was wrong.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:02 - ID#153102)
It is not their place to care. Taxes are not for caring and sharing. Taxes are to have law that secures individual rights equally.

How can you have the law, if you don't know it. In that condition you can't even know how to ask or what to ask for. The judge is not your attorney, is he ?

Each American has the choice of venue of law under which he will live. Common Law or International Law. You can live with no earthly King or with the Voice of the People as your King. You may have to migrate for a venue of common law. Your ancestors migrated for freedom, didn't they ?

I have given you gratis in my posts of today and in the post titled Knowledge Worthy of the Title Golden an understanding it has taken many years to uncover. You are welcome to it.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:02 - ID#424394)
El Borak - we shall invent terms as we go, better than hybrid terms
I agree with the Gold coin with a larger denomination than the Gold is worth as bullion - perhaps a 1/10 oz coin for US$50. But what happens when inflation makes that US$50 worth half what it is today - as compared to Gold? Now we are stuck with melting 'em down and reminting. I suppose we could denominate that 1/10oz coin as US$100 to give it some headroom.

But we run into another problem. Denominating any such coin in some country's currency will require that country's cooperation - unlikely!
What I am proposing is, yes, barter in a way. Grains of Gold as a defacto standard. We need Mozel's help in wrangling the sort of slippery legal loophole for pulling this off in spite of the governments we despise.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:05 - ID#57232)
G'Nite for real -- as we pass the baton to those Downunder
aurator: If you can get close to the solar eclipse path, there is one very mysterious unresolved question that might be answered with the right equipment: does the shadow of the moon affect the force of gravity within the shadow, but not outside it? This difference in the force of gravity -- if it exists -- would be undetectable except with very sensitive instruments. You will not feel any palpable difference in weight. I can explain the why for this theory in a separate post. Not my original idea, but that of a number of individuals.

Since I doubt you know anyone with a portable gravitometer sufficiently sensitive for this, there is something else called the 'Colma' effect during a total or nearly total solar eclipse. It is a Moire' - like wave pattern that the shadow of the moon makes on the earth during an eclipse -- the closer to total the better. If you actually see this, you are seeing something unexplainable by any conventional ( classical ) concept of gravity I know of. I cannot tell you what this means, if it really exists, but it will set classical gravitational phsyics on its ear.

G'Nite all!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:06 - ID#424394)
Eldorado - you were correct the first time
It damn well is "protection" fees! And mafia they are!
Just ask the farmers as the sheriff show up in force
to evict them and auction off their property.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:10 - ID#373403)
Gold in street transactions
This is all petty arguement. Gold will be used for large transactions and "savings". We are not talking M1 use of gold but M2.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:10 - ID#226299)
Grizz - Agreed in total
I agree, and that's precisely why you don't specie in circulation today. The big problem is one of convenience. So long as FRNs are trusted by most people, there's no incentive to use anything else. As long as your supplier is willing to ( or must ) accept them for payment, but doesn't know if his suppliers will accept gold, he will say the FRNs are fine, thank you, a check or VISA even better. As long as it's easier to carry around $200 in paper than 200 dollars in silver, paper it is.

To change THAT, I think we're going to have to wait until a time when people no longer trust paper. After all, the good ole USofA learned this lesson during the revolution, but, alas, has forgotten it once again.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:11 - ID#153102)
Neither Governments nor Mafia like No for an answer. This is true.

If you read my post on Dream House thoroughly, you will realize that at the moment it is not known who is the legal owner of any particular piece of American land if that land is in trust by a deed of fee simple. The legal owner "State of" could have sold it unbeknownst to the beneficiary.

It would be premature to declare the courts do not uphold the law before we have put them to the test, don't you think ?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:13 - ID#153102)
@To Each His Own
I will first have land for my gold. Beer can wait.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:14 - ID#286230)
The Hatt (Canada is next in line and we are fast asleep!)
Right but what would you have us do? Most Canadians haven't had it so good for 15 years. Unemployment is down, the Quebec issue is currently dead, and the currency problem won't hit until the fall when US veggies are imported--nothing is happening to 90% of Canadians yet. So a bag of grapefruit cost $2.99 and not 2.69 like 6 months ago--who cares?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:14 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Righteousness is as righteousness does. There is only one real law and our current government seems to have little, if not none, within it anymore. Mozel, I take ALL of what you say as virtual 'gospel'. However, I continue to feel that hardly any can figure out how to take advantage of it, given the state of affairs within courts etc. 'Babylon' wants their servitude or their death. No more and no less.Sure, they can make a final stand on their front porch with their trusty 12 gauge. Hell, everybody dies. No problemo.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:16 - ID#45173)
The US debt for dollars game that the US has been playing is now taking on a desperate tone. Reminds me of when I'd call resellers and say, in not so many words, "You have to take more inventory. If you don't, we'll go out of business, and since we're the only game in town, you'll have nothing to sell, so you'll go out of business, too. So, buy in." It didn't start off that way, it just kind of turned into that, inexorably, as we stretched out the wire, and then one day, there we were.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:17 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- YOU put the 'courts' to test! I AIN'T goin out that way!!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:23 - ID#280214)
Grizz - I am the retailer you speak of
I will accept Gold. It would be easier in small chunks though. It is hard to make change from even a 1/10oz ML except with Silver Eagles and even then it takes too many when all the customer bought was a $5 phonecard or worse - only 50 cents in copies. Is there a way to verify 9999 Gold grain on the fly. I could get a Gold scale.
In any case:
Now I must see if I can talk some of my suppliers' reps into the idea. One major supplier of mine is in reality a small regional operation which may be open to persuasion. But I really don't expect to be paid that much Gold because not enough people have it. If I do get some in that way - yes it may go in my pocket. But more likely it will go in the display case for sale - along with the Gold MLs and Silver Eagles. Since I have a fair idea of what the spot POG is ( depending on Bart's charts ) , I should be able to trade at a reasonable exchange rate.
Now if I could only figure out a way to beam Gold around - Spock-like.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:32 - ID#286230)
The Hatt
I forgot--- most of us just love the Prime Minister and his Liberal party and our Supreme Court and our clean streets and our free brain surgery and there is no important political alternative and we doubt the PM has had an affair with his wife let alone a groupie. The economy is booming, the CFL is still more entertaining than the NFL and
we can stand a large decline in Asian exports--as long as the US buys all our cheaper and cheaper stufff. So what is there to do-- sue the speculators maybe.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:33 - ID#424394)
themissinglink - don't give up before we get started
Much has been said here decrying Gold not being street money.
So let's figure out a way of putting it back on the street.
If it has to be barter and under the table - so be it for now.

El Borak,
So let's find those business owners like Squirrel who will accept Gold
and get them in contact with others who accept Gold. We can't just rely on retailers though because eventually their pockets will fill up with Gold which they must unload somewhere in order to pay bills with FRNs.
Shipping Gold coins around and getting checks back takes too long - at least compared to normal invoice turnarounds. But maybe some retailers would be willing to tie up a few thousand in this floating Gold.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:35 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Grizz -- Actually the county, state, and federal government has got 'your' property as 'hock' for their bonds. Whether you voted for them or not. IF/SHOULD ANY default, your property is subject to default and YOU are subject to pay your share. Orange co. CA. all over again, not to mention a few others. As long as you are 'subject' to their whimsical taxes, consider it to be so.

Oh yea. Has anyone considered how much your own county and state has in 'investments'? Even Orange county, CA still had billions more in investments that were not touched buy their so-called debacle. AND, STILL NOT TOUCHED! HEll no, bill the 'tax-payer'!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:42 - ID#280214)
Grizz - I can't tie that much up in "floating Gold"
Can't we figure out a faster way to exchange it within the "club".
I suppose "e-gold" would help, but I don't trust any outfit that says they will keep my Gold in safekeeping somewhere I can't readily get to.

The network of suppliers, distributors, manufacturers, growers, etc who will accept Gold would be a good start. I could do that with the guy who supplies me with honey. He is a right good Gold-respecting American. Problem is that since I don't get much or any Gold in from customers right now, I would have to buy it on the open market with US$ or their digital equivalent in order to pay for the honey. Maybe I could pay him in Silver next time - I have enough of Silver Eagles.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:48 - ID#153102)
@The Scene
The Law is your only defence from the government. I sit as no man's judge. Let each decide the name of a man that has gold, arms, and the law on his side and will not make a stand.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 01:59 - ID#424394)
Mozel - if you have all three
then let's make a stand for Gold this weekend.
Let's figure out how to get it back into common circulation
instead of yet another weekend's bandwidth here devoted to
guns, democratic socialism, and more Clinton bashing.

I'm signing off for now - to get some shuteye.
I'll tune in tomorrow, same channel - to see what transpired.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:02 - ID#286230)
The Hatt
And a lot of us are just about to start our Canada Pension Plan payments of 450-700 a month and taxes are coming down everywhere on housing and education. The civil service is down about 25 % and only Quebec Newfoundland and BC are running deficits ( Newfie for the rest of my life ) . Nothing is wrong except the C$ decline-- so no trips to florida this winter and who suffers?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:08 - ID#153102)
Visit the moneychanger site posted earlier. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

But, I have come this far out of the darkness of ignorance and will stand in full light on a piece of ground I own, purchased with specie, God willing.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:09 - ID#255151)
G'day Kitco!

Looked pretty grim for the Dow for a while there, eh. Here is a good set of articles that touch on things discussed here in the last 24 hours. There is even a link to a six part essay on the Gold market! A good read be there, mateys.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:09 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Having gold and arms ( NOT to be surrendered ) , IS making a stand! When one such walks into present-day court, he has surrendered his 'jurisdiction'. IF one does not surrender his jurisdiction, he will be tried ANYWAY, for all intensive purposes, and more than likely be found guilty; I.E. the 'Freemen'. If THEY didn't know common law, NO ONE DOES! So, it comes up to the point of either being 'one of them', being in prison, or being dead. 'Gird your loins' and take your pick.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:14 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Don't get me wrong. I'm a believer in the Common Law! However, in the present day, it and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee, or ticket to the 'deep six', IMO. I WOULD dearly love to know your actual experiences with it vs. the 'government'.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:20 - ID#153102)
Your point on jurisdiction is well made. Many have mistakenly looked for a remedy in the wrong jurisdiction. The Law is a shield for a man. He who would make of it a sword will perish by it. Lo, the Montana Farmers.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:23 - ID#280214)
SDRer - your 00:39 about a "Visa" like window sticker "We Accept Gold"
Well maybe I am on a fool's quest - to get Gold into circulation.
But do you have some links or other info on that European murabitun?

El Borak - your 00:44 expresses worry about bad money driving out good.
Goldbugs should not worry about more Gold being bought and squirreled
away by customers, clerks, shopowners, sales reps, etc. The more they
buy and hoard away the greater the demand and the higher the POG.
And then after Y2K, etc., this Gold will be available for common folk
to re-establish trade, rather than sitting in some CBs vault.

I too will catch you guys in the AM - after open my store.
Though if business is good, I may not have time to check in until afternoon.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:25 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- NOPE! The 'Montana Farmers' were essentially kidnapped to 'their' jurisdiction and NEVER gave in to it! BIG DEAL! They were screwed even WITH their common law righteousness in the end. Were they wrong? Nope. Didn't matter.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:28 - ID#280214)
Auric - You can call me vindictive or sadistic
Yes, it was "too bad for the DOW". We can't say they ( stock investors ) were not given plenty of warning. I try to tell people and they just figure I'm one of those gloom and doomers who also believe in Y2K and hoarding food, guns and Gold and Silver ( after the first two needs are met ) .

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:35 - ID#153102)
It is not enough to say "I am this or that". If your conduct impeaches your testimony, your testimony is void. You cannot justify what you do by the Uniform Commercial Code and then say I am not an artificial person, a resident.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:37 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- The only court that will matter is the one not on earth. Granted, that which is NOT on earth should be, and will be. Justice WILL prevail; The Lords 'will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven'...
In the mean time, I'll just keep my own butt out of 'these' 'fee/retribution' courts as well as possible, one way or another.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:40 - ID#153102)
Maybe you missed my post saying the only way to win is to stay out of their courts. Until I can own land, I will own gold.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:41 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- BUT I AM this or that! Let them 'prove' otherwise. Actually, 'THEY' could probably prove any damn thing they want to, to 'their' judge. What else should one expect in 'Babylon'?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:46 - ID#286230)
The Hatt
Finally don't forget that we can travel anywhere on the face of the earth and not have to worry about getting blown up or shot. Makes commerce much easier. Also with with the freedom to travel we can go to Cuba or Libya or Afghanistan and do business without government intervention. So for anyone interested in a safe clean and prosperous environment Canada is the place. Now if we could do something about the 65 cent C$ this would be the place our neighbours dream about.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:46 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- I own gold and I pay 'rent' along with a mortgage. I figure it's all 'marvelous' and 'swell'. 'Nuff said...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:51 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Selby -- THE only way the Canadian dollar, as well as anybody elses currency is going to appreciate in value is to stow some 'valuables' behind it. You know, stuff like GOLD!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:53 - ID#153102)
Expect no gifts, no helps; ask for no benefit of the doubt or other benefit. You will be in the Lion's Den.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:54 - ID#286230)
Heard it all before old fellow. The German mark has a fair amount of stuff behind it and it has fallen more or less like the C$ has and the C$ has virtually nothing behind it.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 02:58 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- 'lions den' happens. Now, what does one ACTUALLY and meaningfully DO about it...

John Disney__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:00 - ID#24135)
Thanks a lot..
Robnoel ..
Great article .. people who read it
will understand why Im so hot on the
Unita thing .. Im reposting ..

to all
please read ..

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:01 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Selby -- Well, I know their gold can buy exactly what our gold can buy. Must be a 'paper promise' problem.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:06 - ID#255151)

Check this site out, if you haven't already. Lots of food for thought for thoughtful bears.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:07 - ID#286230)
There is a problem somewhere and I'm not sure where. But the idea that the C$ is currently in decline because there is little gold in the B of Canada is nuts. There hasn't been much there for years. Might be the decline in exports expected because the Orient isn't going to buy much lumber or minerals.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:08 - ID#153102)
@Eldorado @$CDN
Prepare and regard the example of Daniel.

We can deduce that the $CDN has been under more pressure than commonly supposed because the government has already sold gold. The only thing that will increase the $CDN is for the citizens to WORK HARDER to PAY MORE TAX so their government can more certainly PROMISE TO PAY HIGHER INTEREST to the buyers of the bonds of the government.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:11 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Selby -- Actually, a 'relative' 'paper promise'. I.E., not all 'paper promises are equal at any time. Right now, the U.S. paper 'promises' are more equal. A temporary abberation, I'm sure! Those that have gold WILL benefit in the longer term!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:12 - ID#286230)
I don't know much about Daniel but the current plan is not to raise more money via bonds. There will be a need to refinance current bonds but no more new onces. The deficit is finished and the debt under attack.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:16 - ID#286230)
Its 3:30 am and I've had enough. You will have to carry on without me.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:16 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- AND IF the government had gold in stock, perhaps the 'promise to pay' would be more believed. Without it, it becomes more and more a game of 'speculation'.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:18 - ID#153102)
A refinance of a bond is a new offering. It tests the water as surely as a bond for new debt. Paying debt with debt is the tricky part.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:19 - ID#226299)
@the scene
'Course, if currency WERE gold, there would be NO PROMISE to pay as it would already have been paid. Can't speculate against that!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:21 - ID#153102)
Yes, that is why gold will always be accepted as payment from a government even when nothing else will be.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:29 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- Yupper. It is unfortunate that the government does not allow 'payments' from us in like kind. They only 'like/accept' debt-based FED notes, etc. Guess they 'like/want' our slave status.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:33 - ID#153102)
Yes, they are partial to those in service who make no effort to liberate themselves. BBL.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:35 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- If I might ask, what is your geophysical location? I'm in North Carolina, otherwise known as the federal state of NC.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:40 - ID#255151)
Hurricanes Threatening

Another potential problem brewing.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:46 - ID#226299)
@the scene
mozel -- 'Effort' to liberate oneself must be done with much 'finesse', less all that effort be for nought and absolute and irretrievable loss of ANY freedom behind bars, or worse. One must know their 'limitations' and those imposed upon them by the 'government'. That is simply to be realistic about the situation ( s ) . How nice and simple it would be to just 'say no'. And one day it may simply come to that. But right now, one better be otherwise prepared for a 'jack-boot', not that it isn't coming anyway, IMHO!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:49 - ID#255151)
Hurricane Charley Set to Slam Galveston, Houston, Corpus Christi

Here is it's expected path over the next 24 hours.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:53 - ID#255151)
Hurricane Bonnie Heading Toward Southeast US

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:59 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Auric -- Re: Bonnie. Been watching it too. Might have to 'dust off' the generator and chain saw in case the storm should turn into something and come across here. Been there, seen that. Don't like it!!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 03:59 - ID#284255)
Y2k info esp Canada

WASHINGTON - A vacationing President Clinton promised federal workers an 8% pay raise over the next two years. Clinton said Thursday if
Congress does not approve an increase of 3.6% in 1999 and an additional 4.4% the following year - matching congressional moves to boost Defense Department military and civil servant pay - he would use his executive authority to authorize the pay hikes. Although the 2000 raise would mark the largest for federal workers in two decades, some on Capitol Hill who were briefed on the figures Wednesday said the increase still would not make up for years of underpaying federal workers.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:04 - ID#226299)
@the scene
sharefin -- I liken' the 'wage' problem the same as I do anybody else; If they don't like it, get a new 'improved' job. As for Klinton making an executive order to give a raise, just goes to show what out so-called congress and 'laws' are worth! HAR!!! And people actually spend their time to vote for them!!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:07 - ID#255151)

May have been a little hasty. Actually,
Bonnie and Charlie are not hurricanes, yet.
They are still tropical storms, although they
are gaining strength. However...Tropical Storm Howard, along the west coast of Mexico, has been officially upgraded to Hurricane Howard.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:09 - ID#252127)

With the dollar being the last man standing; it seems to me that time for a gold spike is closer than we can imagine. The problem is what the US government will concoct to stop the corrective process.

It's probable that the Russian mess will effect the New Euro sharply so 'what currency' is there to fill the gap?

The dollar is between a rock and a hard place and will die due to its huge trade imbalance and the interest payments to the bondos. Will an under-paid, under-employed public be able to pay the bill.

The Europeans have deliberately ( politically ) been holding their currencies down to gain competetive advantages and spur employment. Why should this suddenly stop. It may also be the reason that some Euro countries with large gold reserves have weak currencies.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:11 - ID#226299)
@the scene
Oh yea! RE: my last posting; It required one more 'HAR!!!'.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:14 - ID#255151)

Hell, we might get to see FEMA in action, eh! Hoping Bonnie will "Go East, young lady!"

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:34 - ID#252127)
Them proposed government pay raises

Its enough to make Monica come back to government service.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 04:48 - ID#257148)
Gold Movies
As I watch the South Pacific Peso ( aka NZ$ ) go down the gurgler ( it does however mean that even the Morgan and Peace dollars I paid 25+% over spot for a few months ago are now breaking even on the US prices ) and wonder why it was that the afternoon was intermittantly cloudy so although I was waiting for the eclipse it was just too cloudy to notice anything.. but, JTF I had a portable zivatron and therefore noticed an eclipse-induced refractive gravitational wave effect my conscience. It was either that or a new Mac's Strong Lager at a friend's birthday party.

I was thinking about movies whose titles contained the word Gold, like Goldfinger, Mckenna's Gold ( ? ) , the Gold Cadillac, others?

local video shop does not have The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Shall send in missile ( missle ) attack without delay. Then join another.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:03 - ID#240288)
aurator--About 400

(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:16 - ID#257148)
Leeson -----more bogon than rogue
I have read both Judith Rawnsley's "Going for Broke" and Stephen Fay's The Collapse of Barings. After reading those I'd never read Lesson's own ghost-written apologia "Rogue Trader." He was no rogue, he was a common thief. A lager lout with a grammer-school education and an eye for "the main chance." He learned settlement procedures and he learned to 'trade' Barings' mistake was poor management: it allowed Leeson to both trade AND oversee settlements, with noone overseeing Leeson....A fraudster's dream...makes the deals and arranges the finances, then he discoverd a hole in the computer accounting system, he created a dummy account outside the monthly reconcilliations, a suspense account, he could move funds in and out of, keeping one step ahead of inadequate audits, his only problem?.he could never go on holiday! His system would break down. He F*d up big time, and his 88888 account went into the stratosphere. He was just a crook, things went wrong..

if you employ staff make sure they take holidays, especially in accounts, and inward goods, while they're away vet all receipts and invoices yourself NEVER allow those who order goods to look after payment of same, Barings forgot this simple fraud detection procedure..

No real conspiracy. Leeson cuts a rather pathetic figure in the Fraudsters' Hall of can he compare to a: John Law? Horatio Bottomly? Clarence Hattry? Charles Ponzi? Michael Milken? Clifford Irving? Jim Slater? Ivon Kreuger?
there are many other stories of real derring-do that will be told in time.....

Great links you posted! thanks, now I'll read some more..

(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:19 - ID#257148)
Tip 'o the hat
Obliged to you, sir.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:37 - ID#384350)
While Rome Burns
...Klinton will be playing golf at Ballybunion.

A Ballybunion woman denies the rumour that the American Secret Service made her take down the sign above her shop, Monica's Hairdressing Salon.

I also have a friend who works at the hotel where Klinton will be staying, The Adare Manor, and she looks a lot like Monica, but better looking. Another friend and I teased her saying that the press would be taking pictures of her.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:40 - ID#257148)
Other books by Stephen Fay on aurator's recommended list:

"The Great Silver Bubble" aka "Beyond Greed" about the Hunt Silver Buble
"Portrait of an Old Lady: Turmoil at the Bank of England" about Johnson Matthey rescue/fiasco in 1984
And his account of Clifford Irving's diaries & Howard Hughes called Hoax.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 05:59 - ID#384350)
Aurator, Nick Leeson
Good point on Accounting controls. I read an article on Barings in Nexus magazine a couple years ago. I have to dig up the magazine to find who wrote it. He also wrote another good banking article. Anyway this guy brought out the premise of Futures Trading as being a zero sum game; so that if Leeson lost $1.3 Billion, then someone made $1.3 Billion.

The article didn't say it, I speculated that if someone knew that account 88888 was going to purchase 5000 contracts on the Nikkei, then that someone might slip in an order for 50 contracts for himself just before account 88888 places its order.

The article stated that Leesons bosses kept wiring loads of cash to Leeson. If Leeson was supposedly making all that money, why did his bosses so complacently wire funds?

The notion dawned on me last night that perhaps Leeson and Barings might have been part of the PPT overseeing Japan.

If you look at the Chart linked in earlier post, the thick black line drop on Jan 17 was the Kobe Earthquake. Leeson bought more Nikkei futures contract the day after. Doesn't that sound like something the PPT would do. Isn't it suspected that the PPT was doing its deed in the US after a 1000 point drop last October.

I remember when the Kobe earthquake happened because a worried Japanese girl got up and left our class to call home. The economy and banking sector was also fragile then and might not have been able to cope with a downturn in the Nikkei brought upon in the wake of the earthquake, and as the Japs hold lots of US Bonds, it was important to keep Japan & co. afloat.

So again I ask, "Did Nick Leeson belong to the PPT?"

(Sat Aug 22 1998 06:20 - ID#257148)
I wouldn't have seen it, if I hadn't believed it.........

More on Barings & Leeson...

"Prudent traders kept their heads down after Kobe. ( 17Jan 1995 )
The initial reaction in the stock exchanges was one of uncertainty rather than apprehension. In the two days following the earthquake, the Nikkei 225 fell only 400 points, but for Leeson, that was a move in the wrong direction. He gambled that prices would go up rather than down, plunging into the market on Friday 20 January building long positions of 10,014 Nikkei 225 futures contracts. He believed, that if shares went up, bonds would go down, so he went short Japanese Government Bonds.
On Monday 23 January the market decided how to react to the earthquake. The Nikkie..dropped like a stone, by 1,175 point on that day. But Leeson went on buying; by 27 January, his long position in the Nikkei had risen to 27,158 contracts...On the 23 January alone. Leesons position lost 34 million, Leesons options portfolio had lost 69million in the few days since the earthquake.

From Stephen Fays The Collapse of Barings. Arrow 1996

(Sat Aug 22 1998 06:51 - ID#26793)
Mexican cabinet to meet to discuss plunge of the peso

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 06:54 - ID#384350)
Aurator, The Barings Coverup
From Nexus Magazine ( article not at site )
Vol. 3, No.'s 2,3,4 in an article called "GangBanking - the Barings Cover-up" by David G. Guyatt"

"Money never evaporates. All too often it may appear to "disappear" or become lost in some lira limbo land, but in reality it is merely recycled into other hands. This is the governing rule to bear in mind when studying boom and bust cycles, stock market "manipulations", bank collapses and all the other common or garden variety of financial ills that manifest themselves in this cash-rich society of ours. The Barings debacle is such an event."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 06:55 - ID#26793)
Huge dollar outflow from Brazil on Friday

(Sat Aug 22 1998 06:59 - ID#26793)
Latin American markets hit with panic selling Friday

(Sat Aug 22 1998 07:17 - ID#250121)
Gianni Dioro

Yes, money is re-cycled into other hands in futures contracts. For the life of me, I can't remember who was on the other side in the Leeson deals.

Many went short. Leeson saw building opportunity, others saw insurance liabilities, both belief systems were internally consistent: the crowd won at day's end..No good being right at the wrong time - a lesson I learnt in business, not trading..I learnt other lessons trading;;most important--Do your own research---read the Zurich Axioms until they become reflexes--& blow smoke on your back-trail---

It's good to have the luxury of patience. Namaste Lakshmi 555/888


Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 07:30 - ID#384350)
Brasil and the PPT
Brasil was down 10% and they shut down the markets for 30 minutes. After it was reopened it regained much of what it had lost finishing off just under 3%. Wide speculation was that the govt intervened to prop up Telebras which has a lot of weight in the index.

However I think it is becoming obvious that we are starting to see a global liquidity crisis.

Like the Kobe Earthquake that rattled Japan, it may take something similar to rattle Wall St and Europe. California has been acting up, and Jupiter is coming by in the 2nd week in September. The possibility of suitcase bombs can't be thrown out either.

Gianni Dioro__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:00 - ID#384350)
David Guyatt on Bank Mega-Mergers
1 September 1997

The recently announced Winterthur takeover by Credit Suisse group leaves the Swiss banking giant ranked "as Europes third largest financial services group, and the third largest global asset manager with assets under management of SFr700bn," according the Financial Times of London - which added "... big trends [are] pushing banks and insurance companies together: increasing concentration in the financial services industry..."

This blurring of traditional financial sector boundaries, following widespread global deregulation, has resulted in a new form of banking known as "bancassurance."

Hitherto, the most successful bancassurance merger was that of ING Group, the Dutch giant that was created following the merger of Nationale Nederlanden - the largest insurer in the Netherlands - and NMB Postbank, the then third largest bank. ING rushed to the rescue of Barings - Britains oldest Merchant bank following its collapse in February 1995.

Many questions remain unanswered regarding the collapse of Barings. The Bank of England investigation into the affair was a clumsy whitewash. Out of pocket Noteholders engaged in a legal manoeuvre to have Leeson returned to London where he could speak openly about what really occurred. This resulted in the notoriously politicised Special Fraud Office ( SFO ) forceably taking over the Noteholders law case and cancelling it "In the Public Interest."

Unrevealed at the time were the regular visits made to Barings, by Sir ( now Lord ) John Cuckney, a former MI5 official and Director of Midland banks trade finance subsidiary International Trade Services ( ITS ) . Lord Cuckney was a central figure in the British "Arms to Iraq" affair that led to the peculiar Scott inquiry. The exact circumstances regarding British banks financing of the arms trade is said to have been placed "off limits" to Lord Justice Scotts investigation. However, Cuckney, a close colleague of Stephan Kock - the one time head of Group 13, an unofficial British assassination squad - and the now disgraced Jonathan Aitken of Aitken Hume bank, is said to be an "untouchable."

Meanwhile, the following outline was heard in the boardroom of Credit SuisseAccording to a Credit Suisse source, leading banks have privately agreed amongst themselves that within three years, the six largest banks will, in the words used: "run the show." Those who dont make one of the the top six spots, will be left out in the cold - presumably to wither into oblivion.

The confidential agreement between top bankers to acquire one of the coveted top six slots, is said to be a first-past-the-post arrangement. It is believed that this is a private plan to cartelise the financial services industry. In any event, it is, apparently, the guiding principal behind the spate of various takeovers and buyouts that now regularly feature in the news - as the big players jockey for position to become one of the jumbo players.

It is not yet known if these "top six" are a phenomenon of a European banking agreement or part of a larger, global strategy. Of interest, however, is the recent merger between Nations Bank and Barnet that leaves Nations bank in the top three slot in the US. Meanwhile, sources say that a weather eye should be kept on Nations bank which is rumoured to have some interesting connections in Japan.

Once a giant of the US banking industry, Bank of America, has now been shunted into fourth place by Nations bank. The top two slots are held by Citicorp and Chase. The latter was subject to industry rumour that it was on the brink of ruin which forced its merger with Chemical bank. DT

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:06 - ID#411440)
LEASE RATES: one month gold lease rates declined to 0.51% from
0.71% last week. One year gold lease rates declined to 1.50%
These are the lowest lease rates that I have ever seen!

The concensus of opinion is that the low rates reflect the
availability of Russian CB reserves made available through
Swiss Banks. The Russian gold is not being sold, but leased
to generate income. The excess liquidity was probably responsible
for the most recent weakness in spot POG. The Russian gold is
being held by the Swiss as collateral for loans.

The very low one year rates indicate continued low and lowering
forward sale of gold by gold producers. That's good!

Forward rates are now pushing 5%. That's bad! The difference
between lease rates for one month and USD one month Treasuries is
now just under 5%. A short seller can now borrow gold at .5%,
sell it, and invest the USD in Treauries at 5.5% and make about
5% annual rate. This is an extraordinary high inducement to
short sell gold. This week gold was shorted down strongly.

It will be interesting to see how low the CBs will drop gold lease
rates in order to keep the lid on POG. It is interesting that a
strong support is developing at 282-283. If this floor holds,
then the shorts are denied much short profit to add to the forward
rate. Some of them may even realize that it is extremely
dangerous to short gold at its bottom.

Interesting times. The longer this gold carry continues, the bigger
grows the short overhang. Soon the CBs will have to lend gold free
in order to induce the shorting that keeps POG down.

The phenomenal thing about lease rates is that the Central Banks have
devised a system that allows them to eat their cake and have it too.
They can sell gold through leasing, but they still have it too,
because it returns. Not only do they derive income, but they
manipulate the POG down so that the general public is disinclined
to buy it as an investment, and most of the world's production is
available for CB purchase at firesale prices.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:18 - ID#26793)
Norwegian currency under attack; Central Bank hikes interest rates in defense.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:34 - ID#29048)
Fed has instituted "stealth tightening"...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:39 - ID#424424)
Allen - any leads for good used generators
like the one you mentioned, PTO or otherwise.

Don't have much money, who do you know of??

You can email me at or post it here on
the forum, whichever you feel confortable with.

Thanks much......

Vernon Hale

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:49 - ID#242325)
Bill Fleckenstein likes gold here. Sees favorable risk/reward

(Sat Aug 22 1998 08:53 - ID#29048)
Russia's problems can't be solved by the IMF
"Two-thirds of the retail savings in Russia are deposited abroad or stashed under mattresses."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:02 - ID#242325)
capital flows
TYhe concept of totally free capital flows coming under increasing attack around the globe. This will be extremely positive for gold if it continues. Developing countries no longer willing to be crucified on a cross of greenbacks. Look for major changes in the global monetary system over the next few years.

Richard Medley: Tipping Point for Capitalism

By Richard Medley
Special to

Last week we wrote that if you liked chaos and collapse, you would love a
Russian devaluation. This week, we've got both. Brazil, Venezuela,
Argentina, the Czech Republic -- all hitting new lows on the back of
Russia's collapse. I call my office to ask what's up and they say, "Oh
nothing ... you know, Russia's down 5% or so [Friday]." I shrug and hang up.

We are at an inflection point in the post-Cold War era. The driving forces
since Communism's collapse have been free markets and a massive advantage
for capital over labor. But the cascading crises in Asia, Central Europe
and now Latin America threaten to reverse those forces and have already
seriously undercut the notion that the U.S., the IMF or the G7 have
anything to offer developing countries.

Instead of more belt-tightening and free-market rigor, Asian nations, led
by Hong Kong -- not Malaysia -- and Russia are experimenting with ways to
fight speculators and slow capital flows. There is open talk of setting up
an Asiawide government-controlled "hedge fund" to fight back against
speculators in the futures and currency forward markets. Hong Kong, Taiwan
and Malaysia all set out to do that on their own this week and the result
was significant losses for traders who were short the stock markets in
those countries. That success will breed more attention around the
developing world and will help direct the discussions about rewriting the
world's financial architecture.

Russia is even more directly threatening to turn away from free markets.
Along with the devaluation -- which came only after the U.S. and IMF had
aggressively and forcefully rejected repeated phone-call pleas from
Chubais, Gaidar and Dubinin for more aid last weekend -- the Russian
government is "rescheduling" its outstanding short-term debt. Rescheduling
is polite talk for default and the combined effect on foreign investors in
Russia is brutal. Russian leaders were outraged by the American refusal to
help and set about crafting a rescheduling plan that discriminated harshly
against foreign capital in favor of domestic investors and domestic banks.
The U.S. and IMF managed to pull the plug on that plan at the last second,
but all that did was leave investors knowing they were about to be socked,
but not knowing when, how or how hard.

In the meantime the nationalist backlash in Russia is gaining steam. The
Duma filed articles of impeachment against Yeltsin Friday and the only
reason Prime Minister Kiriyenko is still in office is because he agreed to
bail out the oligarch's banks in return for saving his skin. We fully
expect to see Russia adding new capital controls when the final
debt-restructuring package is announced next week, and as the shock wave of
this new crisis makes its way through the Russian system it could be enough
to make the country turn away from the West one more time. Four times in
the past 300 years Russia has embarked on a Westernization drive -- and
each time it failed as reforms did not take hold and Westernizing leaders
were chased out of office. The past is prologue.

As should be obvious from all of the above, the world's post-Cold War
embrace of capitalism is coming under intense scrutiny. The good times and
free money are over for half the globe, and now they have to decide whether
pure free markets make sense or not. Sure, they make sense for America and
Britain. Germany and France are a little less certain. Japan has never
really trusted them. And now there is every developing country to think
about. Do they take the huge volatility risks imbedded in real free
markets? Are Asian and Central European governments willing to put up with
capital flows that destroy confidence in the sovereignty of national

I don't know. But I do know from talking to people in those regions that
they're not exactly sure themselves that the tradeoffs are worth it
anymore. And I do know that this is a crucial time when American leaders
should be fanned out around the globe pitching in with these governments to
help them put their societies and their economies back together again. We
should be there with people, with money and with sympathy.

Instead, we sit in Washington or Edgartown and launch lectures, scolding
and cruise missiles. We are not present in the way these regions need us to
be. We are not doing what it takes to seal the victory of the Cold War and
if these countries choose to turn against full free markets and fully
articulated capitalism toward a yet undefined "third way," it will be this
moment that sealed their choice.

The IMF is out of money and without a shred of authority. Instead of
working with the Russian government through this crisis and rushing new
tranches of money in to stabilize the decision-making process, IMF Managing
Director Camdessus reportedly holds screaming matches with the Russian
leaders, threatens to throw them out of the IMF and then dashes off a note
referring to Russia as "fubar" ( a World War II phrase meaning f***ed up
beyond all recognition ) . The G7 is a hopeless squabble-fest in which the
winners crow about their success and heap scorn on the losers ( does anyone
even remember that Russia is "officially" part of the G-7? ) . Meanwhile, the
U.S., despite some real effort by Treasury officials, remains paralyzed by
a presidential scandal and a general sense that events are beyond its

So, the shaky governments across the developing markets will have to forge
their own way through this crisis. It is unlikely to result in capitalist
orthodoxy, and we will look back at this moment as a massive missed
opportunity. Whether we are sinking into a true global depression or not is
impossible to tell. The precursors are there, but it takes massive policy
mistakes on top of that to tank the world. What we are seeing this month
are massive policy mistakes of omission. If they trigger a backlash from
the developing world ( as they did in 1928 ) , we will be holding our breath
to see if they become mistakes of commission next year.

That way we can end the millennium with a bang, not a whimper.


Richard Medley is managing partner of Medley Global Advisors, a New
York-based firm that provides political and economic advice to hedge funds
and investment banks.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:23 - ID#206358)

Reread your post twice,superb!Thanks.
Any good site about the investment/hedge fund ?
good day...!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:28 - ID#29048)
Great Fall of China
Great Fall of China

Politics and economics point to devaluation of the yuan


Like China's Great Wall, its currency, the yuan, has stood firm while currencies around the globe have fallen like so many dominoes, starting with Thailand's baht in mid-1997 and continuing to the Russian ruble last week.

But notwithstanding official denials, China is likely to follow the same path, bringing the Hong Kong dollar along with it. And the decision will be motivated as much by politics as by economics.

China, unlike Russia and most other victims of the Asian flu, does not exhibit the same symptoms of a crumbling domestic financial system and a heavy dependence on foreign hot money, which have sent currencies reeling as much as 82% in the case of the Indonesian rupiah. Part of China's immunity reflects its still-large trade surplus ( $26.7 billion for the seven months to the end of July ) and huge foreign-exchange reserves of $140 billion. And it also owes much to the fact that the yuan ( also called the remnimbi ) is not fully convertible into other currencies. Nevertheless, the yuan's value in the black markets on the streets of Shanghai, Beijing and other major cities fell about 10% following the recent devaluation of Vietnam's currency, the dong.

According to one foreign analyst in Shanghai, the city's black market is still bustling with illegal currency dealings with the yuan trading at around 9.0 to the dollar, versus the official rate of 8.27, and would weaken further in the weeks ahead. Chinese companies with overseas operations also reportedly are refusing to repatriate foreign earnings for fear of an imminent yuan devaluation. Others reportedly are sneaking dollars out of the country to European banks through Hong Kong. A recent report by ING Barings' Hong Kong office noted an unexplained $400 million drop in China's foreign exchange reserves at the end of June. Given the trade surplus and direct foreign investment, the report notes, "simple arithmetic would suggest that $30 billion leaked out of the country in the first half, the most since 1978."

"There are all kinds of reports and rumors about dollar hoarding and capital flight that are keeping devaluation fears alive and the money changers busy," the Shanghai analyst says. "People are really convinced the yuan is going to be devalued." And so they should be. Despite repeated promises by Chinese authorities not to devalue their currency, a growing number of foreign analysts and China watchers believe they will have little choice if the country's economy -- and exports, which account for about 20% of China's gross domestic product -- continue to deteriorate. They predict that a combination of international and domestic pressures, ranging from the impact of Japan's weakening yen to rising unemployment in China, will force Beijing to devalue its currency by 15%-20% within the next six months.

"China's between a rock and a hard place," says Michael J. Taylor, chief economist with Indosuez W.I. Carr in Hong Kong, who is predicting a 20% devaluation by January. "It needs a healthy export sector to help finance its reform program, keep the economy humming and absorb the increasing unemployment created by the shutdown of state-owned enterprises," he explains. "But unfortunately, Chinese companies are operating in a deflationary global environment in which they have to run just to stand still and maintain current market share."

"It is not so much whether or not to devalue but how to keep enough growth in the economy to prevent unemployment from getting worse and to avoid undermining social stability," says Albert Edwards, global strategist with Dresdner Kleinwort Benson in London. "They are acutely aware of the Romanian model of political-economic transition," he quips, referring to the 1989 execution of Nicolae Ceausescu, Romania's president during the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s. "If growth is insufficient to keep them in power, they will start pulling out all the levers, including devaluation."

As if to underscore this, media reports recently quoted the head of China's largest shipbuilder, Dalian New Shipyard, as saying that at least a 20% devaluation would be necessary for exporters like his company to

maintain employment and remain competitive in international markets. Barring that, the alternative, he warned, would be a risk of worker unrest and economic instability. China last devalued its currency in January 1994, when it ended its dual system for domestic and international transactions. The yuan immediately slipped by 33% against the dollar and within nine months declined by 50%, but has remained fixed ever since. China's Premier Zhu Rongji was the country's chief economic planner at that time, and analysts say he well remembers the sharp boost to industrial production and exports that followed that devaluation.

China's economy today is in the grips of deflation; retail sales were down 3.25% in the 12 months ended June and industrial production is declining. Most analysts forecast economic growth of 6%-7% this year,

well below the government's 8% target, and warn that it could slump as low as 5% from last year's 8.8% pace.

But those seemingly robust numbers obscure the economy's difficulties. Much of production is piling up as inventories. More than half the country's state enterprises are unprofitable and many more are debt-ridden, but are being kept alive to provide jobs. Still, unemployment is rising rapidly, and in some regions may be twice the 20% level generally acknowledged for China as a whole. That's even before the current disastrous floods.

While Chinese officials say they wouldn't devalue unless the yen were to continue to weaken, Japan's current situation provides little confidence on that score. With the Japanese government still apparently unable to come to grips with the nation's banking crisis and ongoing recession, consensus forecasts call for further weakening of the yen, to 160 to the dollar by year-end and to 170 next year, from 143 at present, itself a decline of over 20% in the past year. Beijing cast a no-confidence vote

by dumping a significant portion of its yen foreign-exchange reserves -- right around the time it was exhorting Washington and Tokyo to prop up the Japanese currency.

Naturally, any devaluation of the yuan would raise questions about its sister currency, the Hong Kong dollar, whose value is fixed versus the U.S. dollar. Some analysts believe the impact on currencies and stock

markets in the region would be minimal, arguing that both are already at rock-bottom levels. "Markets in the region seem to have already priced that in to their valuations," says Gregory Fossedal, president of the

Emerging Markets Group, a research and investment-management firm based in Arlington, Va. "But Hong Kong is a different question," he continues.

"Fundamentals will bring pressure on the peg, but monetary authorities will try to hold out, which may not necessarily be the best strategy."

Even more disturbing are fears that China's continuing economic problems could force a premature end to Beijing's schizophrenic "one country, two systems" policy that tries to package communism and democracy,

free-market and planned economics in a single state. Some critics have long argued this was a ploy by Beijing to allay Western fears about the future of the former British colony after it was returned to China in July 1997. "If there is anything that we know will never happen in China, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, it is 'one country, two systems,' " says Emerging Markets' Fossedal.

That would hold equally for currencies as well as politics.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:38 - ID#286249)
"The object of oratory alone is not truth, but persuasion." Macaulay
DE PROVERBIO An Electronic Journal of International Proverb Studies
VOLUME 1 - Number 1 - 1995
ISSN 1323-4633 URL:

"... as if I were the master of the situation"
Proverbial Manipulation in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf

"This linguistic crudity is apparent particularly in the generous employment of metaphors and formulaic structures.[15] The inclination of the Nazis towards the slogan, the headline, the quotation, the Bible verse - in short the almost mechanical use of formulaic phrases in oral speech and written texts - has been shown repeatedly by a number of scholars.[16] Detlev Grieswelle even speaks of a "Hammerschlagtaktik"[17] ( hammer-blow tactic ) to describe the way in which these formulaic structures are again and again integrated into speeches and written texts. Hitler was quite conscious of the effectiveness of this approach, as can be seen from the following quotation concerning "The Importance of the Spoken Word" ( 107; running header ) in Mein Kampf: "But the power which has always started the greatest religious and political avalanches in history rolling has from time immemorial been the magic power of the spoken word [...] Only a storm of hot passion can turn the destinies of peoples, and he alone can arouse passion who bears it within himself. It alone gives its chosen one the words which like hammer blows can open the gates to the hearts of a people" ( 106-107 ) .

The problem with the use of these ready-made formulas was, of course, that they were not intended to enlighten people but that they were cited to legitimize National Socialist ideology. This went so far that new slogans were created by the Nazi propaganda machine which in 1937 ( ! ) were already included in the quickly Nazified standard collection of quotations, i.e., Georg Bchmann's Geflgelte Worte, the German equivalent to the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations or John Bartlett's Literary Quotations. Gunther Haupt and Werner Rust as editors have incorporated ten whole pages of quotations and slogans of National Socialism in their "Nazi-Bchmann", among them "Blutzeuge" ( blood witness ) , "Mit den Juden gibt es kein Paktieren, sondern nur das harte Entweder-Oder" ( out of Mein Kampf [206]: "There is no making pacts with Jews; there can only be the hard: either-or" ) , "der Trommler" ( the drummer ) , "Wahrer Sozialismus heit nicht: allen das Gleiche, sondern: jedem das Seine" ( True socialism does not mean: to everybody the same, but rather: each to his own ) , "Nur wer gehorchen kann, kann spter auch befehlen!" ( Only he who can obey, can later also command ) , "Gemeinnutz [geht] vor Eigennutz" ( The common good takes precedence over self-interest ) , "Gleichschaltung" ( political coordination ) , "Ein Fhrer, ein Volk, ein Staat" ( One leader, one folk, one state ) , "Kraft durch Freude" ( strength through joy ) , and at the end eventhe first stanza of Horst Wessel's Nazi anthem "Die Fahne hoch!" ( Raise high the banner! ) .[18]",1,1,95/HITLER.html

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:40 - ID#412273)
old gold & Bill Fleckinstein
Bill Fleckinstein has been short the market for years and thousands of points. He has also been long the gold stocks for quite a while.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:43 - ID#288229)


...from dreadful drought to fearful flood.....and the band plays on...this is
the cycle of can/is ( be ) seen in everything....

the paper tiger has run to the end of her tether....many riders are running
full stride 'aside the dust envelops more and more of the
peopleo.....the ones still 'astride her, will never see what went
inside her......there is room for ALL the peopleo and more......

i've beaten the drums of war that were in full and open chorus in the middle east, for what seems forever....the time has come..

..a facts a fact.....
it belongs to them......they're gonna take it back....

our proxies in saudia arabia----soon to be part of greater arabia--- are in
the cross-hairs of islam.......800+ million strong........the jihad is formally joined...and they will speak with actions.....tis time to be an ant...and
prepare....a hard winter approaches....the worst ever....and the winds
of war, fed by that which has consumed the world from time immemorial----religous zealots, is blowing a gale from the east.......

my chips are the grains.....
cellulose--us$----toilet paper.......

we've witnessed the greatest changes in recorded history during MY generation---the who---and as history would have it, WE are going
to have the CHANCE to witness a group of short lived events that
will eclipse--by far--that which we watched in awe during the 60's to
the 90's.....un-precedented growth....dictates un-precedented ????

'for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction' sir isaac...
look around....what does this apply to???

'the farther back you can look, the farther forward you can see'...
sir winston....

'if i have seen farther than others, it is because i have stood on the shoulders of giants' ......sir isaac

cherokee!;! ooooowwwwwwwwwwwww

(Sat Aug 22 1998 09:48 - ID#287312)
What will happen to the stock market if
a U.S. City is the next target of Bin Laden. If I lived in N.Y. or L.A.
I would go visit Aunt somebody in small town USA.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:09 - ID#286249)
Proverbial Manipulation-

One might argue that proverbial manipulation is the potent weapon in today's financial war. Hot-button phrases carefully crafted to capture deep emotional responses, sans thought.

Our grandparents were exhorted to "just use your common sense"; common sense, rather like common law, puts the thinking human in a powerful force-field-shield of distilled wisdom. Thinking, reasoning, knowledgeable humans are more difficult to round-up and drive to market.

Rounded-up, being driven to market/slaughter, thought's sun obscured by choking dust...

"When the lamp is shattered,
The light in the dust lies dead--"

Maybe I just need coffee...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:10 - ID#284255)
Why complain
That evil men grow fat
And wealth increases for them
When justice costs so dearly
The common man is dispossessed
Of justice, in this land
For justice in this country
Justice gives place to the Law
And the lawyers thus grow fat.

The strength of government
Is the Law
But when Law invites corruption
Government itself becomes a victim.

When the Law is weak
Interpretation defeats justice
To suit the purse
Even our judges are confounded
And appeal but proves the flaws
The costly folly of our laws.

We need a government
Whose strength is justice
Rather than the law.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:17 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
White River Electric in SW Mo - refuses to answer.

Empire District in SW Mo now says this ( I was the first to call them
in Oct 97 when they didn't know about it! )
Our plans are to Island ourself off.
We hope to ration and give everyone 2 hrs of electricity a day the
first 2 weeks in Jan 2000 until we learn if the nuclear plants will
be coming back on line, etc.

For who missed my earlier report on above:
2% hydro, 65% coal, the rest is nuclear

I see some problems with this plan. But at least they are thinking
about it! Quote this Joplin/Springfield Company when you call your
company if you wish!
Forget about nuclear, that's going down even before 2000! I have a
client that works at san onofre nuclear pp. Out of 40,000 embedded
chips, 1400 are non compliant and they're scatching their heads.

The nuclear utilities MUST be compliant by July 1, 1999. Ain't happening!
Just as I thought, Thanks for reminding us.
For those who think they live in a town with a good power plant --
hydro, diesel, natural gas, sitting in a coal field -- aren't they
fooling themselves? Don't they have lots of embedded chips that
aren't ( or can't ) get fixed?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:23 - ID#284255)
If that is so it is well said.
In a bright clear dream
This woman looked at me.
I met her glance,
And held my place,
Though attracted by the strength,
That glowed calm peaceful,
In her eyes, her face.

Later we met again. She spoke,
"I have heard", she said, "that between
a man and a woman,
there is a level field whereon
they may in safety meet.

So with an old world courtesy
My mother taught to me,
I answered honestly
"If that is so it is well said".

She smiled at me and I unbent
Now both are well content
With an understanding
Of the mystery resolved
On that fair field
And all our days have been
A rich unfolding of
Life's oldest sweetest theme.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:24 - ID#275194)
SUSPICIOUS: The uncertainty of all the events currently unfolding
is why I picked up some Gold bullion yesterday. At a Grand Supercycle top, events will fit the picture, rather than the market needing something to happen. From an Elliot Wave, the A-B-C that is unfolding is more classic than ever, which is what you would expect if indeed it is. I said the other day that the abc to the .382 area held and we were going to start the 3rd wave or that was the A of an abc. This downdraft looks like it could be ( potentially ) the 1st and 2nd of the 3rd unfolding. keep your eyes open.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:29 - ID#275194)
Or it may be the B of the A-B-C. If so it is complete and we are in the C
of this correction. The correction is unfolding as a Flat, which means that the waves are ending at the same levels. i.e., wave C should end in the same vicinity as wave A. The .382 area of the wave 1 decline of 1037 points or abouts.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:30 - ID#275194)
Have to go, catch you guys later.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:31 - ID#286230)
Now that Bill has got Bin Laden mad and increased the risks for all of us everywhere--but mostly citizens of the USA--what happens if Bill is successful and makes him a martyr?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:33 - ID#45173)
Associated Press reports 80% of Americans (USA) support missile attack
5% can find the location on a map, 1% understand what might motivate the "terrorists" to engage in war in this way.

The US is in the uneviable position of needing to support various family-run police states in order to defend national interests. A democratically elected government in Saudi Arabia will not support the US.

Tthe US press has jumped in right behind the US war effort, helping to maintain the ignorance of the AMerican public, reporting this morning for example, "It is unknown how many suspected terrorists were killed by the ( missile ) attack. Taliban radio reported 27 killed and 50 injured."

So, everyone that Taliban radio reported killed or injured was a suspected terrorist? Clearly Taliban was reporting the number of human beings killed and injured.

Let's take a quick Kitco poll so see how much we goldbugs know from sources outside the mainstream press. If you listened to and read only mainstream press accounts of the Gulf War, you'd have one picture of Iraqi casualties versus the picture that emerged later from other sources.

Question: How many Iraqis were killed in the Gulf war, according to the multinational group Amnesty International:

a ) 2,000
b ) 40,000
c ) 120,000
d ) 500,000


(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:36 - ID#288229)


and it brought a tear of joy to my's gonna be alright.....

thank you my friend....the majic of the written word...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 10:56 - ID#266105)
got fiddle?

EJ ( Associated Press reports 80% of Americans ( USA ) support missile attack ) ID#45173: 5% can find the location on a map, 1% understand what might motivate the "terrorists" to engage in war in this way.


Maybe in the same vein, the Neilsen ratings of Clinton's
four minute ad ( dress ) outpulled the '69 moon landing in viewership.
Also surpassing things like Kennedy's funeral, the final Seinfeld,

The moon landing probably the most significant event in the
history of mankind, for the secular anyways.

Like they say, bread and circuses. Got fiddle?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:03 - ID#45173)
2BR02B: the ave. American believes that "a few thousand" Iraqi soldiers
were killed during the Gulf War. It is hard for them to believe that the number of dead probably exceeded 500,000 by ten or twenty percent, of course not all of them soldiers.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:20 - ID#153102)
@SDRer10:19 @EO @Eldorado's Warning
SDRer Yours was a must read.
Is there an article on this E.O. for pay raise rumor ?
@Eldorado Sadly, I double your warnings on efforts to liberate oneself. Read the Jan Newsletter at for details.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:22 - ID#153102)

(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:23 - ID#412286)
Embassy bombings
I was surprised and pleased that only 12 Americans were killed in the embassy attacks. Unfortunately there were hundreds of Kenyans. Is August vacation month for the embassies or do we just have small staffs there?
Just curious.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:30 - ID#153102)
@Perpetual War
Is the objective of the friends of government. The formula of secret attacks by hired criminals recruited by government secret services responded to by public attacks by "terrorists" will achieve the goal.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 11:52 - ID#286253)
A gold stock that trades at a PE of 10:1. I follow this company closely, so if there are any questions, ....


(Sat Aug 22 1998 12:17 - ID#249206)
What is impeachment and what does it have to do with gold ?
Impeachment of the President or the Vice President would affect the market and the price of gold. The uncertainty would make the market volitile, but it is not clear in my mind what direction the market would head if there were impeachment proceedings.

The following is an article by Representative Bob Barr of Georgia

It describes what impeachable offenses are ... they are not restricted to criminial acts only ... then lists Clinton's and Gore's impeachable

A. Delay, Incompetence, and
1. Vince Foster's Documents
2. The "Coffee" Videos
3. The White House Data Base ( "WhoDB" ) Memo

B. Impeachable Offenses During the 1996 Campaign
1. Illegal Solicitations in the White House
2. Illegal Fund-Raising Outside the White House
3. Conspiracy to Circumvent Spending Limits
4. Abuse of the Immigration Process
5. Other Possible Impeachable Offenses

He concludes ...

'No doubt exists that the actions taken by the Clinton Administration are serious. Are they "high crimes and misdemeanors"? An independent counsel cannot decide this question. Congress is the only entity that has been granted the power and the tools to answer it. If we failto use the tools entrusted to us expressly for this purpose, we fail the Constitution itself.'

Gandalf the White
(Sat Aug 22 1998 12:54 - ID#433301)
kapex (your Elliot Wave readings)
could you be more specific and state approx numbers to what you see when you are looking at the chart ? such as, IF this is the a-b-c of C -- then last Friday was a and bottomed at about the same base level as precious bottoms of A at about 8,350. Then maybe this a-b-c would go above 8,750 on the way to a TOP at about 9,000 AND THEN COMES the big DOWN CRASH to the 7,000 area. IS this what you are saying ? If not please explain further as not all of usins can understand Elliot. Thanks GW

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:14 - ID#43349)
@Gandalf the white
He there, Mr. pointy hat. How did you like the flight yesterday? Down about another eighty.

I think a potential rally to about 9000 in mid to late September is not too far fetched, as you can see from our past-experince-seasonally-correlated chart:

The market survived it's little post-summer-rally-test-of-the-lows flight yesterday and should be ready for the standard labor day rally.

It's interesting to note that the chart is an overall bear market chart, ending lower than it begins.

Beware the post labor day rally slump and early winter corrections however. Bad things sometimes happen as we know a couple of noted October events that were not happy.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:17 - ID#37463)
Why No One Is Required To File Tax Returns
As a tax attorney, I would certainly advise you all to take with a grain of salt the comments in the book. Unless you file a retun the statute of limitations is endless for the assessment of tax. Filing tax retuns is not voluntary despite what these tax protestors would otherwise have you believe. If you ignore the tax code and do not file and pay your required tax liability you are doing so at the peril of your family and your assets. Anyone who knows me knows that I hate to pay taxes, I do not even want to pay my fair shares ( whatever the heck that is ) and feel that the money is being spent in large part on porkbelly projects which are a waste of money. Nevertheless I file to avoid having the IRS make my life a living hell. There are, I am sure, people on this line who can tell experiences of how the IRS gestopo managed to pretty much bring their lives to a screeching halt. They have a lot of power even as the gentler, nicer cuddly IRS and some of these people have Wyatt Earp syndrome and swagger when they walk. They have power and they love to use it. The cost of contesting IRS intervention in your life is prohibitive. The guy who wrote that book will no doubt charge a tidy some for his services. I frankly don't think he can do what he says he can.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:17 - ID#31876)
From the Richard Maybury Web Site, For Those Who May Have Missed It
The title is "Oil In Troubled Waters", the new oil bonanza in
the Caspian Basin. ( A prolific new supply that has been hurting
the price of oil. )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:20 - ID#37463)
Forgive my multitude of typos in the previous post. My spellchecker is at the store.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:21 - ID#287312)
Something to think about !
What will happen to the world demand for fuel oil and petro products if 20-30% or more of hydroelectric and nuclear power is shut down ( WORLD-WIDE ) due to Y2K. Could a truck load of Generators be a better investment than gold maybe ? The one most unpredictable consideration of this economic crisis is the approach of Y2K. We have no history to guide us.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:24 - ID#37463)
I think you have a point. I have talked to a lot of people who are buying generators. Maybe there will be a generator commodity established. Then we can go long on generators. Something I think we can all get a charge out of. Shocking thought indeed.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:29 - ID#43349)
There has been much hoop te do about the Y2K. Personally I doubt it will come to much for many reasons. Or then again it could.

In any case, the uncertainty and fear concerning Y2K WILL come, is even here now and will grow in the coming months.

A truckload of generators, or candles, or storable food, or anything like that can be a VERY good investment, but I would get them all sold before the Y2K actually gets here.

You know, buy on the rumor - sell on the news.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:40 - ID#43349)
News from the past...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:43 - ID#252127)
River Gold

Sam_A, how is the River Gold balance sheet doing?

This fine operator earned $ 0.18 Can for Q2 and pays a dividend.

Is Western Quebec Mining still in a supporting role?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 13:57 - ID#284255)
Thank god for love and life.
For we're going to need them
To get us through this coming chaos.

Just in on the email machine:
Hear Art Bell had an email saying they had sent him anthrax and that they
were putting anthrax into a building in Wichata Kansas and they checked out
the building and found white powder and had to go thro disinfectant etc and
it ended up inert substance. Just heard it on cyberspace station that I
have on so no details.
Here we go.......... they are going to wreek havoc over here.

Dear God

A man of integrity would I be --
And wise in Judgment
So dear God, teach me

And brave enough,
Compassionate and good
Resourceful and intuitive
And I would
A touch of humour lest I be severe.
And sound good health.
And please, a modicum of wealth.
For you have given us keen eyes
For beauty and the things we prize

The gift of loving too I need.
For you dear God made Eve a maid
And me dear God a man indeed.
And both with thoughtful care

A moderate man you see
And peaceful -- not a prude
For these few simple things I plea.
Dear God -- remember me --

Dear God

That earlier list
Dear God.
Me surely dreaming!
A moralistic theme
Composed no doubt
In a grey moment

What I'd really like
Dear God
Even now, grown old,
Is a garden
And a woman at my side
To help me tend it
Woman are wonderful friends
And often wonderful gardeners.
Such a loving empathy with life

And this life's a garden
Needing care.
So forget that list
Dear God.
Just take me as I am
And, if there's the chance
Of such a garden
And such a friend
Dear God -- Remember me

Over two thousand years ago Horace -- great Roman poet wrote to a good friend
" This was in my prayers;
A piece of ground not overlarge,
And near to a stream of constant water,
And beside these some little quantity of woodland "
Truly the dream of all peoples.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:09 - ID#219363)
Someone, anyone ?
Can someone explain to me what the Globex numbers mean, what are they ?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:17 - ID#219363)
@Gollum, others ...
Thanks for all the time spent posting comments concerning the CB's and the POG, they were appreciated very much.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:19 - ID#286253)
@Jack re River Gold

Balance sheet still strong. Took on some debt to buy mill but debt/cash flow is good. Clean books, by and large. Development costs tend to be expensed, large ( and growing ) broken ore inventory and no gold sold forward.

Yes, Western Quebec still holds something like 41% of the outstanding shares and extracts a management fee, They have some interesting projects going on in their own right. Right now they are drilling the Wesdome property in Val d'Or - this is adjacent to the Kiena mine - that was recently acquired from Placer. Apparently, they are pulling some good holes.

Jack, you wouldn't happened to have ever lived in Rouyn, have you?


(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:30 - ID#37463)
Thanks for the 1929 headline. Now we can have more to worry about. You could just take the headlines, post them in any newspaper today and no one would question that they were current headlines. Scary stuff.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:32 - ID#284255)
Gollum - get real - get 200million new RTC's
How's you real time clock???

Check it out at:

Prove It test shows most PCs unlikely to pass Y2K analysis

Best if used before Dec 31, 1999

Now if 50% to 90% of the worlds 250 million PC's are affected by this.
Do you really think the effects will be minimal?

I am not convinced as yet.
Watching and waitiing.

Binary blowout?

Make a Little List

Christian Guide to Small Arms

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:39 - ID#284255)
The globex quotes are the current future prices on the physical contracts.

Gandalf the White
(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:45 - ID#433301)
Gollum's Friday Flight
Hail Gollum
yes, "ideedie" did like the yesterday's flight, esp. the freefall into the neg 280 area of "death valley" ! Youse did a GREAT job of handling the stick to pull it up and out of the mudpie. Twas a classical logrithmic curve for the day and has us ready for that last TRAP of the dippers on the way to 9,000 ( + or - ) . Then we shall see the vaule of GOLD, yes ?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 14:49 - ID#252127)

Never lived in Quebec. I presently live in California, but feel that many properties in that area have excellent potential.

In many cases the existing mining infrastructure is in place, not to mention the potential of undeveloped properties in those well known mining areas in Quebec and Ontario. This can propel a junior, especially if we have the right price for gold.

I believe that the locals have the handle on what will be best to make/take a stake in.

About River, has the disagreement with VenCan been solved?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:06 - ID#288229)

yes, it is true......we are awash in crude oil.....the winds of war will
insure the journey more perilous than the production....and
that the price is more than 50$ is just around the corner..
they have the carotid of the west in their hands.....the machine
must have its' subsidized life-blood.....

energy.....and control of energy sources....ww1 & ww3.....

don't be afraid of the lawn-mower blade.....the rosthchild's plans for
you and yours moves without obstructions.....the peopleo are
crushing one another to see who can reach cliffs edge first....the
freefall will be sublime......just a bright flash..and then wonder at what the hell happened as their life-blood spills into the ocean....

look back to see forward.....

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:07 - ID#286230)
Why its going to be tough to be the next Prez

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:09 - ID#290172)
Jordanian editorial
20 AUGUST 1998
Our Say. . .Nailing the great lie
Public values arise from private morality. Clinton was wrong again to argue that his private trauma has no bearing on public life.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:18 - ID#288229)

gold is setting-up to ????

this looks like......well let's look at it another way....

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:23 - ID#288229)

chaos and flux have control of your tv and pewter......

and gold tam bien.....

what do you see grasshopper??

a bottom......and a time to set traps for the sellers of gold....patience
and planning....and REALISTIC constraints for its' acquisition......

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:33 - ID#190411)
My, aren't you cheery today?
I always wanted to ask about "mr.chop-asaki". What does that signify?
Perhaps you might add a bit of specificity about your chaos and flux calls. I tend to agree with you, especially after the Commander in heat jammed another stick into a hornet's nest. Few here are making the longer term calls on what might happen. I guess that is your forte'. I'd like to see a bit of your strategy. TIA

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:39 - ID#290271)
Rounding 3rd and heading for home!
Hi everyone! I've been around -- but just lurking. I think our gold "slump" is rounding third and heading for home -- to be thrown out at the plate. I think that by the time Mark McGuire is hitting 60 homeruns, we should see some upside action on gold. To that end, I just sunk a bunch into my gold mutual fund as it's at an all time low.

I'm sticking to one basic premise: it costs $312 ( worldwide average ) to pull gold out of the ground. A nice jump from ~$285 to $315 will pop up any decent mutual fund 10-20%. Then I'm jumping out of the mutual fund as I believe someone/something is artificially pushing down the price of gold.

However, it's important to bring up one significant data point: the US mint is setting new records each month for gold and platinum eagle sales. All the little guys ( like us ) are falling all over themselves buying gold in one-sie and two-sie lots. That in and of itself should put a squeeze in the available supply. Also, if we have a couple more wild days on Wall Street ( like last Friday ) , then I see a boost up to more realistic levels. However, I don't see any huge run-up on the horizon anytime soon.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:43 - ID#286249)
Worthwhile read...
Japan Echo Vol. 25, No. 4, August 1998

The Ming Chinese took the relationship between themselves and others as a dichotomy between the civilized and barbarian worlds. Thus, while a world order based on the concept of war versus peace was emerging in Europe, one based on the concept of civilization versus barbarism was taking shape in East Asia. While early modern Europe saw the rise of power politics, early modern Japan witnessed the development of moral politics.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 15:45 - ID#153102)
@Why No One Is Required To File A Tax Return
People who disparage other people's counsel on suppositions of its exorbitant cost should first publish their own rates. Lest they be taken to task for what they are doing.

In my opinion it is a disgrace that so many who put themselves forth as lawyers give their fellow citizens advice that consists of gently worded admissions that the government is not restrained by law and that the legal profession's charges to provide ineffectual defense are prohibitive.

Who will defend you from seizure and asset forfeiture ? The cost of getting your things back through attorney is also "prohibitive". What is being told us is that when you are legally robbed and legally overtaxed and abused, we are defenceless.

My counsel is prepare, associate with honest, upright men whose counsel is trustworthy and whose study is diligent, and defend yourself.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:09 - ID#228128)
Selby- What if?
What if Bill had Monica do that with a who humidor full of Havanas so that he could hand them out to visiting dignataries?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:29 - ID#411112)
Mozel..Here is a URL for dealing with taxes....its one thing to get advice its another to get advice
and they say to you.....if it ever goes to court we will go for you

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:29 - ID#226299)
Squirrel - my 00:44
Actually, it's not my worry that people will squirrel away gold, in fact, it's one of my Great Hopes. The more people hoard, stockpile, whatever, the better off they'll be. I wish they would each set aside as much as I ( and it's good for POG, as well ) .

My point has to do with commerce. They can't both save and spend it simultaneously, and since given the choice between paying in gold or paper most will pay in paper ( read about the "Continental" and Lincoln Greenback episodes sometime ) , and save the gold, it will quickly disappear from circulation.

Unless there's a coin with a greater face value than bullion content, it will not circulate. Unless it is minted by a recognized authority for weight and purity ( free coinage, anyone? ) the convenience of paper money will guarantee that specie disappears in short order.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:35 - ID#342376)
Latest Drudge report...
I don't like this guy after that stunt he pulled the other night of putting "Clinton Resignation" as the headline. However, if the latest report is true, or is perceived to be, Americans will not tolerate THAT and Clinton is toast. From now on, if Clinton denies ANYTHING, he will not be believed after admitting to one deception. Clinton's popularity has topped and is now in a bear market.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:37 - ID#426220)

USA Today Report -- 20 August 1998

A stash of cash for Y2K

Fed hatches plan to increase U.S. currency reserves

The Federal Reserve plans to boost currency inventories by a third next
year in case U.S. consumers want to have more cash on hand when
Jan. 1, 2000, arrives, a Fed official said Wednesday.

This is the first time the Fed has planned for a nationwide demand for
extra cash.

The Fed wants to be ready if consumers hoard cash in fear of so-called
Y2K computer problems that could cause automated teller or
credit-card transactions to fail when the new year arrives.

Many computer programs read years in dates by the final two digits
and refuse to process transactions that include the year ''00'' because
the date is interpreted as the year 1900.

The fear is that all the fixes needed won't be made in time.

As a backup to the $460 billion in circulation, the Fed will add $50
billion to the $150 billion in cash reserves next year, says Clyde
Farnsworth, director of the Fed's operations and payments system.

But nobody knows how much is enough for Y2K-related nationwide
demand because no one knows whether Y2K will be a glitch or a
crisis, says banking scholar Martin Mayer.

''I do know a lot of people working on Y2K expect to go into the year
2000 with a lot of cash under the mattress,'' Mayer says.


Pleae notice the very last sentence: ''I do know a lot of people working on Y2K expect to go into the year 2000 with a lot of cash under the mattress,'' Mayer says"

As time winds down to 1/1/2000 the newspapers will have forgotten OJ and Sexgate, and will focusing in on the looming MILLENNIUM MENACE which may well affect the entire world, but especially the USA. Why more at home than overseas? Precisely because no society in the world depends more on computers than we do. Consequently, as growing panic picks up momentum, more and more people will be taking preventive measures... like Citibank allotting $600,000,000 to try to become compliant before M-Day, and the Federal Government increasing cash reserves for public use by 33% from $150 billion to $200 billion. And if the ATMs don't work?!

This means ALL family heads will hide away in THEIR HOMES probably $1,000 to $10,000 in cold hard cash... just in case. This cash build up in each home will definitely NOT go unnoticed by street criminals - they too read the papers. And whether the Y2K Bug is bad or not, burglars will know for certain that every house has large sums of untraceable cash. There just "ain't" enough police to handle multiple robberies in all parts of the city, state and country.

Were this feasible situation indeed to crystallize, the Federal government would Be forced to call upon active military and reserves to impose martial law... and even then there would not be enough soldiers. It could become quite ugly.

More reports on the MILLENNIUM MENACE at following URL. Remember to delete the extra "en" letters in the word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet:

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:43 - ID#286230)
Jessie Helm will have a stroke if it is proven that Clinton has Cuban cigars in the White House.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:43 - ID#153102)
@robnoel I know nothing about that site or those people.
I say again the problems in America resolve to too much power of attorney.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:49 - ID#253153)
JTF--I foresee the following sequence of events
Since we are a a Confirmed Primary Dow Theory Bear Market, by default we have entered a bull market in gold. The bottom in gold has been made. When will gold begin to move ? After the financial panic which I expect within the next 4-6 weeks. At some point in the future , probably when the public reads that the US officials want to relate our currency to gold and silver again, both gold and silver should enjoy a long, healthy demand at higher prices. I feel that this will come during a major depression. The coming financial panic will signal the coming depression. We probably will witness a major depression starting in Q1 or Q2 in 1999 and lasting for many years. But the market has a way of discounting events ahead of time. For this reason, I feel that gold and silver wil begin an upmove in Oct 1999. We are in a primary bear market which isn't worked off by any means. Regardless of any CB gold sales, the gold price will keep rising.It does not matter what the German government does or any other government. In a gold bull market, like now, the price will rise. The long bond has been saying for a long time that we are in a runaway deflationary period and money will move to gold for safety and in anticipation of a convertible US dollar within the next few years. After the financial panic, the dollar may decline against foreign backed gold currencies but domesticaly , it's purchasing power will rise as all other commodities prices sink ( that includes oil and alike ) . By the way, I'll be driving tonight from London to France via the new Euro Tunnel under the English channel. I'm a bit scared but being told it's very safe.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:50 - ID#343259)
selby and idt
could explain why bj chews his cigars and never smokes em.
the big creep is going to help destabilize the US$
and help drive up gold prices, just a matter of time.
we need SA/Australian producers to chill out on selling
forward for awhile

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:51 - ID#240288)
IDT, Selby--Cuban Cigars

Clinton wanted to be just like JFK. This would be his dumbed down version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 16:52 - ID#343259)
the chunnel is built in some very stable strata, no worries

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:06 - ID#190411)
@Herr Vronsky, aka beethoven
Again I ask, "Who are you?" I am unable to get a response from you as to who you are, and what your angle is. Your website is full of interesting comments, and prognostications.
But, it is unbearably slow. I am not a fan of slow graphics. If there was a good reason for the slow graphics, I would be less inclined to hit the stop button on netscape. I have seen comments adressed to you as the "Professor". Is this an honorary title, or does it relate to your piano skills?
I looked at the retired cop's article that you were posting interminably, and it said nothing that any casual lurker to this site would have recognised as new.
The way-old stuff on your site should be demagnetised, as it only refutes your premise that gold is money.
I am sorry for using the passive voice in my reply to you, I am in a hurry.
I'm an honest man, but do you trust me without knowing my motives?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:07 - ID#219363)
Good news
Is that there hasn't been any bad news this weekend, nothing notable. Guess it's finally time to get this market rally underway and go for the serious high numbers. As always, we just never know do we. If we have a rally, is it a set-up for the big bear claw to come sweeping in ? Could be, I tend to think so, but who's to say. Certainly thinking that we are in a bear market is still blasphemy to most US citizens. Some of the posts here referred to there being no way that "so many bears" could be right about a market top, well, I don't know what television channel you've been watching, or what paper you've been reading, or who you've been talking to, but I suspect that "so many bears" probably amounts to about one percent of the population. Even the "die-hard bears" aren't buying like bears, they're sitting on the sidelines waiting to see if they're right, because EVERYONE is afraid of calling the end to the bull - all the bears have been wrong before, and they're gun shy after making bad predictions on the demise of the beast. Even in this forum, the "den of the bear", people are afraid to call it for fear of being wrong. To me, when even the bears won't play, when we see a 10 percent "correction", with more bad news on the horizon, when even then bears won't call it a bear, that's when it's a bear, and that's when we'll see some serious downside.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:07 - ID#411112)
Mozel...let me correct you....there are to many lawyers do you get a lawyer out of a

tree.......cut the rope.....sorry ROR

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:14 - ID#190411)
LGB is piling into the major stock market indices. Why? Because his guru, Bob Brinker says it is a "gift horse" buying opportunity.
I have to agree with Liberty/BUGal/LGB, et al, that Brinker has been spot on for the entire bull market. Do I bet against him now?
He recommends buying back in. I anticipated the command from him and piled all over Kinross at 2.3125. TVX is another near-irresistable temptress.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:17 - ID#190411)
Ya wimpy wrist.
I'll kick out that scaffold.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:23 - ID#286249)
Efficiency Test for Administration's Image Makers

How long do you reckon it will be, before it occurs to A. Lewis, that they picked the wrong face to paste on enemy #1?

The Ayatollah's face was appropriately hostile; it was easy to be uneasy about Saddam's brutish countenance. Ussamah Bin Laden is going to be a problem-image-wise.

His rifle looks rather like some esoteric musical instrument-thanks to the graceful arc of beautiful wood, and he rather handles it like one too; his eyes look bemused rather than fanatical; his soft voice might at any moment begin a poetical rendering. His is, in fact, the face of a poet.

Please do not misunderstand; I'm not suggesting that he is not one dangerous dude. But image-wise, as USG enemy #1, he is going to present problems. Che all over again! Annie, you'd best get on this pronto

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:24 - ID#342376)
@ ERLE ie Bob Brinker
I'm confused though, is he bullish on Gold and Gold Stocks, or Stocks in general?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:25 - ID#190411)
I must say to anyone that berates you for being "off topic", that your words and references mave done more than any other single poster to push me toward hard money.
Perhaps, someday, we will meet. You will have your alloidal title to your land, and I will bring beer.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:33 - ID#259400)
I agree. Very confusing post. I reads as if Brinker is bullish on the stock market. Does he mean gold stocks or just stocks in general.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:34 - ID#190411)
He hates gold and goldshares, I was being facetious.
He has been right for the longest time though.
Maybe not this time. He did say that the exports of Russia are less than 1% of world output. I thought that that was a strange way to put it.
They don't export finished goods that the civilian world wants, but, they sure can fight with their backs to the wall. They have been the armorer to the "third world" for forty-or-so years.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:35 - ID#268260)
Yvan Auger & Elliot Wave Analysis
Do any Kitcoites read Yvan Auger's Wave Analysis of Gold? I find it hard to understand, but it seems to be deadly accurate. The most recent analysis posted today states that the XAU will decline for the next month, to between 45 and 30, then expect a run up in the POG of 310 and even higher by January, 1999. If this is true, mining shares will be even cheaper than present. That is hard to believe. All comments appreciated. Thanks.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:40 - ID#286249)
Mozel, I echo Erle's sentiments.

The lessons have not been without pain, but surely that is
a very modest tuition. A chilled bottle of Veuve Cliquot with grateful thanks. {:- ) )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:41 - ID#342376)
New Post from Friend of Another, urging purchase of physical gold, not dollar denominated paper gold

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:42 - ID#43349)
Even bear markets have rallies

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:48 - ID#287312)
Gollum / Yep, bear market rallys are what
kill the bulls all the way down. They see bargin time with every short covering rally.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:48 - ID#190411)
The idea that we humans are under the spell of a "wave" propogated by who knows who, is contrary to the idea of independent man.
The obvious systemic monetary problems in the world have been created by humans.
To ascribe the power madness of the current financial and political overlords to a recurring wave of some sort is nonsensical. The correlations of short term charts may be compelling, but, I see by use of my eyes that this current situation is not the same as it has been for the past fifty years. The fundamentals are vastly different.
So, I admit stupidity in loading up on goldshares this past two weeks.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:54 - ID#287312)
I'll be suprised if Bin Laden doesn't strike
before the weekend is out. I believe we will see that Hackworth is correct, we've kicked a hornet's nest. I'm concerned a US City could be a target.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 17:56 - ID#190411)
Sorry about me bringin' beer to mozel's party, when you brang wine.
I was referring to another post of last night.

..Nice to see you back after your sabbatical.
Now, if you can get your friend Promey back....

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:03 - ID#342376)
Anyone with a bullish stance on the markets..
with all that's going on with Clinton, Russia, Global Markets, Currency Devaluations, and Terrorism is just plain stupid. A small rally for a week or so might be possible, but there are too many hair-pin triggers in the world to bet on a small rally.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:09 - ID#287312)
Crazytimes: Not past 3Q profits IMHO
It seems more and more that people see a serious decline ahead but don't understand how much it can be and how long it could take to recover. I think those with a good knowledge of history have a big advantage.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:13 - ID#290172)
The wine was for the 'body' of Mozel's work, not any particular
post. So, on a fair remuneration basis, one post=one bottle of beer sounds fair. {:- ) )

Re:Promey--Surely she won't desert us. When school is safely in
session, she'll no doubt share with us again.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:13 - ID#280214)
El Borak - great idea in your 16:29
Especially if a small country or, even better, a small group of entrepreneurs with the stamp of approval {re weight & purity} of a respected country
minted an undenominated Gold coin {to avoid in/de-flation}
of 10-grains of .9999 Gold {worth about one 25lb bag of Sugar}, this country or these entrepreneurs would profit from the seigniorage AND they could establish a defacto Gold standard for trade with commonly circulating Gold coins. Usage of such a coin in common trade would be far easier than using 1/2 oz or 1 ounce coins since these would have to be filed, cut, trimmed, nibbled or otherwise chopped up to facilitate cash Gold transactions. I suppose we could use .9999 Gold grain or dust but that would be darn inconvenient. Everyone would need a pocket Gold scale.
Please review previous posts by several here about development and marketing of just such a Gold coin. Some of us ARE working on solving some of the problems of getting Gold back into circulation ( as Grizz keeps hammering us about}.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:17 - ID#290172)
Squirrel--Murabitun sites for your perusal...


North American site>


Main--People of the Ribat


(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:23 - ID#342376)
@ SDRer ie "Promey"
Shhhhhhh, Not so loud about Promey's "secret" I'm only kidding though

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:26 - ID#287312)
I have lurked here for several months and posted occasionally but have not introduced myself. I'm a 47 yo Viet-Nam vet from Tennessee and live in Florida part time. I love mapleleafs. I trade options mostly and the only stocks I own are S.A. PM's. I believe my PM's are a two to three year investment. I claim no party affilation as I believe the're all crooks. I have detested Bill Clinton since he said he didn't inhale and I found out he was in Russia while I was in the mud in S.E. Asia.
I'm beginning to learn a few people here and I'm disappointed if Donald isn't here in the am and I have to look my own news. Hello to all.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:28 - ID#253153)
As General Motor goes so goes the market
On Friday Aug 21, General Motor closed below the neck line which came in at $66. Very important ! The action of GM is the handwriting on the wall. It spells doom, a coming crash, huge losses, many bankruptcies, and failures for many companies and individuals all along the line. Thus , General Motor is leading the way to a major depression. Allow 6 month to 18 months, and unemployment will probably soar to 15% or higher. Chaos will exist. A new administration will be voted in the year 2000. The prices of gold and silver will soar as people seek something with "value" in it . The administration has "bad mouthes " both gold and silver too long. The public will no longer believe it. History is in the making as the "bear " takes over, and the stock market will make all the economic decisions for the new economic managers in Wash, D.C in the future. Do whatever is the safe thing for you during the long "bear" period ahead. This varies with each individual .

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:28 - ID#267276)

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:33 - ID#342376)
Hi Suspicious!
I want to purchase more gold coins. I bought a handfull of Mounties from Bart to show appreciation for the site, as well as some Golden Eagles from Patriot Trading, but I'm thinking about buying some Maple Leafs or Gold Philharmonics. Both are .9999 gold. Any comments from you or anyone else about the virtues of either?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:34 - ID#268260)
Thanks for your response. Next time tell me exactly how you feel. Don't sugar-coat it. I, too, am sitting on a large position of ECO bought below $2/share last January. I also have cash in reserve to purchase more mining shares. Anything that goes against my belief that PMs will rise dramatically in the near-term ( one year or less ) gives me the jitters. My concern is that the past 10 months of reading Auger's forecasts having taught me not to ignore them. The predictions have been on the money. We get rich or poor together, yes.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:34 - ID#287312)
JP / I do believe
that you are right sir. A very serious decline over the next two months.
How can a put option for Dec99 possibly not be a giveme.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:35 - ID#280214)
JP - sounds like a business opportunity
Your statement in the last post of
"The prices of gold and silver will soar as people seek something with "value" in it."
Why not join an effort to sell Gold directly to these people?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:39 - ID#257148)
Suspicious ----Is that you? --- Welcome!
I'm walking down the street, looking backwards over my shoulder watching someone
walking down the street looking backwards over his shoulder watching me.

Is it infra-dig to bring a bottle of beer to a party where wine is served in the US? Would not wish to unwittingly offend.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:39 - ID#287312)
Crazytimes :
i just like mapleleafs because the're pretty and 99.99. I keep my mapleleafs in a bank their homeland because of US confiscation history.
Probably won't happen again but my dealer is two blocks from the bank. I can buy and the bank verifies storage inventory. I can sell likewise and I have no shipping cost.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:41 - ID#259323)
A rise once more
to around 9000 into and a couple of days past labor day may be in the cards.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:44 - ID#253153)
Squirrel---You are right
As you know, the American public has not discovered gold yet as an investment. As equities decline, they will discover gold as an investment and there is lot's of money to be made by selling it. I read somewhere that demand for gold coins in the US has been rising substantially and I think that this is only the beginning.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:50 - ID#287312)
Has anyone realized that
Venezuela's stock market has fell 70% from it's 52wk high ?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:51 - ID#290172)
Aurator-There are a few,

Like You
That transmute tap water
To gala status
( and you've NEVER unWITtingly offended dear Rascal! )
{:- ) )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 18:58 - ID#412286)
THERS GONNA BE WATER MELON SMILES FOR THE STK BULLS BY YEAR END. He said in '99 will look back at flip flop Acampora and the bears and say "what a shsmae". I am glad nothing has gone to his head. If the market tanks below his ranges I think we should send him a watermelon and some Russky vodka to spike it with. Anybody thats a good idea. No doubt though the guy has been right and even Kaplan's figures flash buy. If we continue to collapse then we will know we are in a bear. Think of the sentiment on gold and the bullish COT and what do we get is dullness at best. If the gold bull were on the current COT would give rise to a good rally. Note what happened when the COT on gold turned negative in April.. Almost immediate and sustained collapse. Gold should get a rally soon as bullishness is down to 25% which is near the normal tradeable low. Lowest I have ever seen is 18%. If the MARKET BEAR CONTINUES WE WILL WATERMELON BOB. Agreed?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:06 - ID#412286)
The extent of
Stk bearishness now plus the wall of worry is perfect for an outstanding rally ( remember the economy is supposedly ok and rates are falling which is like a big tax cut for companies and individuals and thus will offset world problemas..the bulls will claim after a rise ) . THIS IS GREAT BECAUSE IF IT DOE NOT HAPPEN THEN WE KNOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED...Ah CERTAINTY AT LAST!!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:07 - ID#43349)
Living on the edge
For thos of you who like excitement in their trading, do I have a treat in store for you!

As you know, we have entered a primary bear market in the equities area. However, after Fridays dramatic test of the intraday lows and grand rally back up, we are poised for the labor day rally. Correlation of our current situation against similar bear market climes taken from more than forty years of data shows that we are tracking quite well:

This should be a tradeable rally And last for more than a week or two. But this has been a very big bull market that we have gone into the bear phase from. That's where the edge of your seat exciting part comes in:

If you think you might know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em, then these are the times for you.

Me, I think I like soething more the precious metals.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:10 - ID#37463)
gold coins
For those wondering what coint to buy, I cast my vote for Maple Leaves. these are beautiful coins, feel substantial and have that bright yellow smile. I bought my last bunch from Bart. They are good people to work with and their prices are competitive.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:28 - ID#37463)
Filing tax returns
Some may have taken from my post on tax protestors that I feel the IRS has no restraints and that the cost of legal help is prohibitive. The IRS has certain restraints as set forth in the Internal Revenue Code and Regulations and by internal procedures manuals. However, the law is weighted in favor of collecting taxes. As for the cost of legal help, sometimes the cost is worth it; other times it is not. Generally on a small tax matter the cost of legal representation is more than the amount involved in the tax disputes. I'd venture to say, however, that these companies that are going to be on call and save you from the IRS are expensive and ineffective. If you owe the income tax, bankruptcy after three years may be the only way out when penalties and interest are added to the pot.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:39 - ID#427357)
much greater than 70%

Ref:Suspicious ( Has anyone realized that ) Venezuela's stock market has fell 70% from it's 52wk high ?

On a dollar basis it is considerably greater -- and once elections are over in December, it's KATIE BAR THE DOOR. Unless oil prices firm up quickly, Venezuela doesn't have a snowball chance in hell

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:48 - ID#286230)
Where's the Prez?--Don't Ask!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:49 - ID#257148)
Read All About it.....
Did someone post headlines from 1929 papers earlier? I would appreciate a a pointer or a repost, cos I just couldn't find it. TIA.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:51 - ID#228128)
or Jesse Helms will support his growers by telling all "Hell, them Cuban cigars ain't no good. They smell like '?/!9&'."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 19:52 - ID#43349)

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:03 - ID#286253)

I am not sure what the status is with VenCan - it think it has cooled a bit. There was an arbitration process provided for in case disputes like these arose - I don't know if it has been triggered or not. I think it will blow over once VenCan starts to see some more money - start-up costs are up-front, gravy at back-end.

Re Quebec - it'd been a one in million, but there was once a Jack in Rouyn who helped me out a great deal when I was a kid, working summers up there. If it had been you, Id'a just said thanks once again.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:07 - ID#252391)
Crazytimes - I'm with you
I'm with you Crazytimes -with international economic and social turmoil breaking out everywhere anything but a day trade from the long side in the stock market looks very dangerous to me too.

I notice war is breaking out in the Congo with neiboring countries getting involved. The situation is Chia following the floods is horrible.

I suppose a rally could get going. We all seem to be on the side of a rally just past the Laobr Day Holliday. Too much company for me. A jump back to the gaps left on Frdiay morning is about all I see unless the lower interest thing starts to get a following. But gosh, you have countries coming apart. Look no further than Venezuela and Mexico. Give me a rally to short is all I ask for.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:09 - ID#252391)
Crazytimes - I'm with you
I'm with you Crazytimes -with international economic and social turmoil breaking out everywhere anything but a day trade from the long side in the stock market looks very dangerous to me too.

I notice war is breaking out in the Congo with neiboring countries getting involved. The situation is Chia following the floods is horrible.

I suppose a rally could get going. We all seem to be on the side of a rally just past the Laobr Day Holliday. Too much company for me. A jump back to the gaps left on Frdiay morning is about all I see unless the lower interest thing starts to get a following. But gosh, you have countries coming apart. Look no further than Venezuela and Mexico. Give me a rally to short is all I ask for.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:18 - ID#173274)
Squirrel - Undenominated Gold Coin
I like the idea of a gold ( or silver ) coin denominated by a non-governmental standard ( weight and purity ) , which would be safe from a change in definitions. I suppose the powers-that-be could change the meaning of "1 grain" if they really put their minds to it, but it would be far more difficult than changing the value of "1 dollar" from 1/20 of an ounce au to 1/35 of an ounce.

One other problem, I suppose: How difficult is it really to counterfeit gold coins?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:23 - ID#43349)

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:32 - ID#257148)
El Borak
It is no more possible for a gobmint to change the standard weight of one grain than it is to change the length of one foot, the value of *, or decree the tide shall not flow this evening, though some have tried.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:35 - ID#257148)

where * = pi,

it ( pi *, * ) didn't map properly from my Mac today.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:37 - ID#335379)
HEllo Suspicious: How is life over at the SI board? I don't go there anymore.
No offense to them, I'm just doing other things now.
Squirrel, Don't know if you saw, I sold the coach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:50 - ID#288229)

my new e-mail address is...


(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:50 - ID#335379)
Hello Aurator: The Lord hates when man changes weights and measures,
or moves the nations boundry lines. It is possible for gubmint to do it. It is just wrong. I have seen them do it. In my IRS audit the gastopo reduced the number of days in the year by 121 for my bus. vehicle because it was not driven the first 3 months while it was undergoing referbishing. Even though it was purchased the previous year! In other words they cheated, lied, misled, changed a measure.
They also used a vague word, "apertuent" to desribe weather or not a home bus. in the garage is TD or not. Thus they subtracted my electricity, and water use! Again more measure changing.
The Lord isn't the only one thats a little angry at this....

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:56 - ID#31876)
Victor Weintraub's Recommendation - Bonds 50%, Stocks 0%, Cash 50%
"We are in a BEAR MARKET."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:58 - ID#259400)
Dutchman, I don't profess to understand Elliott wave theory but I have followed Auger for almost a year now. He will miss 1 out of 10 moves but the other 9 are almost right on. Your term deadly accurate is very apropo. Auger has been predicting XAU 35 for some time. He also says 35 is just a target in a much, much larger decline. He is talking an XAU of 5-10 before gold hits bottom. Do the math on that one. I pray with all my heart for a rally between now and then so I can lighten up a little on my mining stocks.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 20:59 - ID#272206)
Erle, LGB,Bill2j
As I said last week, the DOW bull is not dead, this is a typical 10% correction. Too much cash from the 3rd world afraid to go back. The yield curve is inverted, the FED will lower the discount rate. Latin American governments will ask for and get advice from the US on how to buy back their own stocks and reinflate their economies. We will print cash, they will print cash, the world will become awash in fiat currency. The DOW will recover, but so will the YEN and the dollar will weaken. Gold will start to rally on inflation news, not deflation/depression news. When Silver or Gold rallies start in earnest, inflation will be here to stay and then the market will tank. This won't happen until '99 or Y2K. Trader Nick makes a good point.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:05 - ID#290232)
Smoke this!
Drudge report...

Monica "masterbated" with a cigar. Bill Masterbated while he watched. Yasser Arafat waited in the rose garden ( What could be taking that infidel so long? ) .

Wonder who smoked that cigar? Maybe Bill have it to Yasser!

Arafat: Unusual taste Mr. President, what did you say this was? A Havana?

Clinton: Why yes, a Havana Vagina to be precise.

Arafat: Havana Vagina? I've never heard of it. I'm having a hard
time keeping it lit though. I think the humidity in your humidor may be to high. Maybe that's why it tastes so "musty". Yuck!
I just can't smoke it. It taste like a damn rotten fish!

Clinton: Guess it's an "acquired taste". Hehehe.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:07 - ID#288229)


mr.chop-asaki....he is an of connotative abilities...

he is either horrible and punishing.....or sublime, and oh so kind.....
he was borne from a maker of sushi at a local establishment....
and he has permeated the infra-structure of all my dealings.........

he is used instead of expletives.....or as an accolade to a knowing
business associate or loved one.....

it is used here as a gift.....chop-asaki to all my kitco friends.....
mr chop-asaki.....and all the kitco chop-asaki's.....he is me, and i he...brothers all are we......may kitco chop-asaki forever!

hi earl....donald....ted...fin-man...spud-potato-dude....and.more....


(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:12 - ID#26793)
In the past two weeks Brazilian stocks have lost all of the gains of the past two years.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:13 - ID#26793)
Your mailbox is full.

Rising Sun
(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:13 - ID#411331)


(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:15 - ID#402131)
I thought you were kidding about The Drudge report. This is perverted!
Can't wait to see the papers tomorrow

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:18 - ID#26793)
Argentinian stocks down 40% so far this year.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:19 - ID#257148)
I fear you are mistaking an application of measurement, with the standard of measurement itself. In your example, the gobmint could change the standard of measurement by, say, deeming one day to equal two days. The exclusion of days that count does not violated the measurement of one day, it merely refers to the number of units of measurement that are to be counted or not.

The measurement of one grain is thousands of years old, it is an application of the law of large numbers. 480 grains ( of wheat ) will always equal 1 troy ounce.

Which of the US States tried to legislate for Pi? I recall that there were more than one.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:19 - ID#287312)
Nicodemus: I may visit SI once a week maybe
Just not on the computer as much lately.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:23 - ID#173274)
aurator - The value of a grain
...which is why I said it would be more difficult, but to say it is impossible is to understimate the cunning of these creatures. Redefinition is the last refuge of a scoundrel. And while my answers were legally correct...

Is there any controlling legal authority over Pi?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:23 - ID#287312)
gets more embarassing every day. No wonder he had big tobacco on his mind.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:27 - ID#288229)


Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:30 - ID#347267)
@JP ur 18:28
Mebbe U didn't see my GM posts of Thurs and Fri??
My GM comment: ( repeat from 20 August am, before the opening )
General Motors, as a belwether, is a the critical neckline level of a six month long head and shoulders formation. A close at or below 66 will confirm this negative top, and indicate a minimum target on the downside of 55. See:
IMHO, this will be one of the final nails in the coffin of this bull.

and after the market close on 20 August:
see todays GM break:
Note: GM closed today at 66 1/2 with well over two million shares traded. It is no coincidence that my target of 55 is the support level of the January lows. A bear market bounce from that level will probably coincide with a sharp ( bear market ) rally of the general market.

And after the market close 21 August:
Is there any doubt that we are seeing the track of the big bear plainly? Do not discount the Dow Theory, even though the Dow and Trannies are changeable indices. New Paradigm be damned, the Bubble has developed several large leaks, and I doubt the PPT or RR or AG have enough wherewithal to "fix" them all.
If you read what I wrote yesterday, I also believe GM is one of the "belwether's" of this market, representing the blue chips which
have carried the picture of the sheeple's market to the recent highs. Now the gigantic head and shoulders formed over the last six months in GM is complete; the critical neckline was broken today:
There will be bounces up from here in the market which should be considered to be rallies in a bear market and all should exercise extreme caution with any long holdings ----

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:32 - ID#257148)
El Borak
( what is the etymology of your curious handle, if I may be so bold.. )

Does anyone know the source this Old Testament Quote? TIA

"As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion."

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:36 - ID#26793)
Singapore and Taiwan flirting with deflation.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:38 - ID#347267)
@Envy, Your 17:07
"---Even in this forum, the "den of the bear", people are afraid to call it for fear of being wrong. ----"
I am people and a BEAR and not afraid to call this market a CONFIRMED BEAR MARKET.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:39 - ID#173274)
Proverbs 11:22
El Borak was the main character in a Robert E. Howard novel, "Son of the White Wolf", about an American Conan ( all Howard's characters were Conan, really ) living in Afghanistan in the 20s. Alas, it is out of print.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:40 - ID#335190)
Reversing his earlier statements that he would not appear before a
Duma commission considering the impeachment of Boris Yeltsin,
former Soviet leader Gorbachev told Ekho Moskvy on 20 August
that he would appear before such a commission. Gorbachev said
that Yeltsin's approach had made it impossible for the Soviet
Union to continue. PG

Having arrived in Murmansk on 21 August to observe a fleet
exercise and missile launch, Yeltsin announced that he will take full
control over military policy and military technical cooperation,
presidential press spokesman Sergei Yastrzhembskii told
ITAR-TASS. Yeltsin indicated that by doing this, he will be able
to ensure that officers and soldiers are paid. PG

U.S. officials on 21 August canceled a planned visit by journalists
to the "USS La Salle," a warship that is taking part in NATO's
"Cooperative Assembly 1998" exercises. The ship left the port of
Durres but is still in Albanian waters. AP reported from Tirana that
the moves are security precautions in the wake of U.S. attacks on
presumed terrorist centers in Afghanistan and Sudan the previous
day. PM

Foreign ministry spokesman Valerii Nesterushkin told
ITAR-TASS on 20 August that the NATO exercises in Albania,
in which Russian troops are also taking part, do not pose "any
threat to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." Nesterushkin said
the exercises are a "timely measure" to prevent the escalation of
the conflict in Kosovo." But the Defense Ministry's newspaper
"Krasnaya zvezda" the same day portrayed the exercises as
precisely that. "The West is not even trying to conceal its
aggressive plans against Yugoslavia," the newspaper said. Instead,
it is trying to find some legal basis for a "NATO invasion of
Yugoslavia." Consequently, "Krasnaya zvezda" continued, the
Russian soldiers taking part in the exercises should be seen as
"monitors" of NATO's intentions. PG

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:50 - ID#272206)
Mtn Bear
Were you here last September? All of the kitco DOW bears congratulated themselves on correctly calling the August 97 top and the beginning of the bear. You were wrong then and now.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:51 - ID#286230)
The Drudge
has really put himself out on a limb. If he has this wrong he will have no more credibility than Clinton himself.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 21:54 - ID#288229)

here are quatrains written in the 1500's about the 1900's...

silly billy to be exact...

read on...

V.83 A hypocritical leader from a powerful nation who loves to quote from the Bible.

Ceux qui auront entrepris subvertir
Non pareil regne puissant et invincible
Feront par fraude, nuits trois advertis
Quand le plus grand a table lire Bible

Entrepris: enterprise, scheme; subvertir: to subvert; nonpareil: non-parallel, unequal; puissant: powerful; advertis: advertise; lire: read.

Those who plan a subversive scheme
In the reign of unequal power and invincibility
Through fraud shall advertise ( a campaign ) for three nights
While their leader is reading the Bible at his table

COMMENT: ( Let the reader himself figure out whom this quatrain implies. )

VIII.14 An immoral leader.

Le grand credit, d'or, d'argent, l'abundance
Aveuglera par libide l'honneur
Cogneu sera d"adultere l'offense
Qui parviendra a son grand deshonneur

Aveuglera: shall blind; libide ( libido ) : sexual desire; cogneu ( cogner ) : to hit, knock; adultere: adulterer; parviendra ( parvenir ) : to obtain, reach.

Great credit, of gold, of silver in abundance
Shall blind his honnor through sexual desire
Shall be struck with his aldultery offenses
Who shall obtain a great dishonnor

COMMENT: Do this quatrain and the previous one both describe someone that we know?
More to come.

VI.13 A dubious US president shall be impeached.

Un dubieux ne viendra long du regne
La plus grand part le voudra soustenir
Un captiole ne voudra point qu'il regne
Sa grande chair ne pourra maintenir

Dubieux: dubious, shady; plus: most; plus grand part: by majority; soutenir: to support; captiole: an anagram of the word "capitol" or Capitol Hill; point: point, mark; pourra ( pourrir ) : to become rotten, decay; maintenir: to uphold, defend.

One dubious president shall not reign long
The majority of population shall give him support
But Capitol Hill shall not give high mark of approval
Such a great chair shall be upheld from decay

COMMENT: This president shall be impeached by Congress even he gains a majority of approval from his people. The English word " chair" indicates that this event shall occur in an English-speaking country. And the word "Capitol" clearly indicates US Congress.

IV.28 God's Chastisements for the Sin of flesh.

readers are leaders......know the truth, and it shall set you free....


(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:00 - ID#286249)
Aurator--Aug 22

Proverbs 11 Chapter 11
22.[As] a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, [so is] a fair woman which is without discretion.

11, 11, 22! You KNEW this! What do it mean! How do you DO this?

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:01 - ID#347267)
Nope, wasn't here then; I did not call '97 a top although I did lighten up some. I just read the tea leaves ( and charts ) like everyone else; I grant you there will be rallies, but from now on they will be bear rallies and as such should be sold. When I am proven wrong ( new highs in DOW and S&P's ) I will apologise to all, but after all, these are my opinions, yes?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:02 - ID#288229)

he has the ability to 'see' sdr'er....

Bob M
(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:12 - ID#259251)
Drudge Report
Just read the latest Drudge Report on the Lewinsky matter..unbelievable shocking details...

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:22 - ID#401460)
By Matt Drudge
Tue Aug 11 1998 00:07:22


Barbra Streisand, where are you now?

News that Hollywood producer Harry Thomason is once again en route to Washington, D.C. -- this time to help President Clinton prepare for his grand jury testimony, and to also answer a few questions himself under oath at the courthouse -- took me back to a more innocent time.

Back to the beginning.

Back to another cold day in Washington: Inauguration Eve 1993. And another Harry Thomason production.

Some 18,000 guests had gathered at Washington's Capital Centre for the 52nd Inaugural Gala: "An American Reunion." It was
aired on CBS-TV. It was Michael Jackson and Fleetwood Mac wishing the new president well. It was Barbra Streisand.

Dressed in a white Donna Karan that was cut down to here and slashed up to there, with a face that celebrated the end of Reagan and Bush slavery, Streisand was in top form that night.

She belted out a jazzy version of "God Bless America" -- caressing the word "sweet." She sang "Evergreen" and dedicated it to Bill and Hillary Clinton -- sitting just a few rows up.

CBS cameras, with Harry Thomason's direction, captured Hillary looking out at the seats, out at the future with love and wonder. Everything was right on that magical D.C. night...

But it was Streisand's third musical selection that would end up turning into a presidential prophecy.

Just hours before Bill Clinton was sworn in, there was Barbra Streisand on stage, before a national audience, singing and lecturing Bill Clinton to be careful: Children are listening.

It is not clear if Harry Thomason personally approved Streisand's odd play list that evening -- a set that featured Stephen Sondheim's haunting song "Children Will Listen" from the play "Into the Woods."

Streisand, sitting on a stool looking directly at Bill Clinton, sipped her tea, opened her heart and sang:

"Careful the things you say, children will listen.

"Careful the things you do, children will see and learn... Children will look to you for which way to turn, to learn what to be.

"Careful before you say 'Listen to me.'"

The camera caught Bill Clinton misting up during Streisand's serenade.

Hillary nodded with approval as Streisand warned about the perils of lying.

She sang:

"Careful the spell you cast, not just on children. Sometimes the spell may last, past what you can see, and then turn against you.

"Careful the tale you tell, that is the spell. Children will listen!"

Streisand hit the high notes flawlessly, the crowd applauded.

"Careful what you say, Children will listen. Careful you do it too, children will see and learn...

"Tamper with what is true and children will turn, if just to be free.

"Careful before you say "Listen to me.' Children will listen, children will listen. Children, children will listen."

The crowd applauded and cheered, Streisand blew a kiss...

The irony of that far away moment is enough to break your heart beyond repair.

Because of course no one in the arena that night could have any idea that Bill Clinton would later appear before a federal grand jury to face questions about what he did as he watched a White House intern do strange things with his cigars in the Oval Office.

The 1990's have turned into one sick nightmare.

Children, run for cover!


(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:30 - ID#342376)
It's Bulls vs Bears on the Kitco Channel!
POW! ZAP! KABOOM! ( put me in the bear category )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:30 - ID#39857)
Whooops a little too much magic
I cant tell if I am hallicinating on some wicked cocKtail of
drugs or this is all REeEAaLLL. I will focus on gold. OMMMMMMMMMM

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:33 - ID#280214)
Squirrel dropping in
Now I may understand Spock's logic.
Perhaps to let you all know I am here - catching up on reading.
I've logged into ICQ too.
Appropriate posts may follow -
depending on what acorns I may find under this tree.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:34 - ID#257344)
my take on the news
My friends, correct me if I am wrong but did not the actions of BC in bombing the Islamic extremists and disclosure of his 'duties' while Yassir was waiting do more to unify the Moslem extremists and their sympathisers than any other possible combination of events! Indeed in the period of one week, Bill Clinton has plunged the world into events that can not be forecast. Clinton's War has unraveled everything that Alan Greenspan has tried to build for the world economies. Once again, I am glad I have a position in gold!

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:38 - ID#348129)
@Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ....... And El Presidente has the button for the Nukes
Howard Stern, bite your lip....... DRUDGE REPORT
By Matt Drudge
Sat Aug 22 1998 14:22:02 ET


**Warning: Contains Graphic Description**

In a bizarre daytime sex session, that occurred just off the Oval Office in the White House, President Clinton watched as intern Monica Lewinsky reportedly masturbated with his cigar.

It has been learned that several major news organizations have confirmed the shocking episode and are now struggling to find ways to report the full Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton grossout.

Media Bigfeet are trying to reconstruct one sex session that reportedly took place as Yasser Arafat waited in the Rose Garden for his scheduled meeting with the president!

According to multiple sources close to the case, President Clinton allegedly masturbated as Lewinsky performed the sex show with his cigar in a small room off the Oval Office. It is not clear if Clinton or Lewinsky kept the cigar, or if Lewinsky testified on the specifics of the encounter before a federal grand jury this week. Lewinsky's testimony has been described as graphic, and included unusual practices.

The DRUDGE REPORT has now been briefed on these shocking details that have stunned all those who have heard them and investigated them -- details that now threaten to completely disgust and stun the American electorate.

The White House refuses to comment on any DRUDGE REPORT.


(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:44 - ID#348129)
@Cigar Man
Doesn't this evidence warrent the re-opening of the Paula Jones case??? I always though that the woman judge in that case was paid off.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:45 - ID#37463)
The bear's growling
Side me with the bear but crowd. Its a bear but with a lot of interspersed bull. Wecome back to the band width Cherokee. Now if we can get Ted out of hibernation and back with us. Monica and Bill are giving cigars a bad name. This presidency is up going up in smoke.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:47 - ID#284255)
Friend of ANOTHER
( Editor's Note: Came back from Saturday errands to find this from Friend of
ANOTHER in the mail -- a cautionary post which emphasizes that what we are
facing today as investors is totally different from anything we have ever
faced before. )
8/22/98 Friend of ANOTHER
This is not an answer to any of your questions, but rather a short
discussion with the readers of the USAGOLD site. In light of what is
happening now, I thought this would be a good time to offer this:
Do people fully grasp what is happening in the currency or gold markets?
Talking to investors, private citizens and reading forums geared for
professionals, we come to the conclusion that the turn in gold, when it
comes, will offer a fantastic payoff. This fantastic return will in-rich
every entity that operates a business using gold, be it mining, trading,
recycling, etc.. As a group, we look at the gold market today and using
existing circumstances assume the future will play out just as the past. It
is not going to happen, not even close!
I think that much of what Another has offered is shown as the broad monetary
directions that current political function has forced the markets to travel.
If one reads the excellent essay of Mr. Otto Scott, offered on your site,
it's easy to see how the markets for money ( and gold ) are an ever changing
event. Someone once wrote, "learn from our history, but never look back for
direction, as the past of the future was different from yours". This
thinking must feel very familiar to goldbugs of today as the market walks a
path not taken in our time.
The events that lie before us will impact gold for the very basic reasons
familiar to most gold historians. That being, gold is money and will be
sought after when our current world money system breaks down. What is lost
to many minds is that the breaking down, this time, may involve a global
shift from one currency system to another. For traders, this scenario offers
the worst possible outcome! It destroys the actual paper markets their
investments depend on to create capitol. Not only this, but the surge in
physical gold value will not occur until after the transition of monetary
systems is complete. Perhaps requiring a year or so?
Most Western gold bulls use dollars to evaluate their holdings. However, the
current process tends to raise gold prices in all currencies that use the
dollar reserve system ( the outgoing system ) and lowers prices in actual
dollar terms. It gives the appearance of money inflation in most other
economies and money deflation in the dollar economy. This destroys the
purpose for making gold investments in dollar terms while creating the
reason for exchanging dollars for physical gold. Low gold prices help create
an overvalued dollar that allows an avenue for exit from this currency prior
to the next upheaval. This reverses when global investment shifts into a new
reserve system not based on any single country. Unfortunately, for most
western gold investors, their gold trading markets of preference, at this
time, is totally dollar based.
The coming destruction of the dollar/debt based economy brings together odd
bed fellows. It isn't often that we find monetary inflation and deflation
under the same roof, but the international nature of the dollar reserve
standard will bring this about for the first time in our experience. As in
any race, everyone cannot come in first, second, third or eight, etc., for
it is in nature of competition to see the last one cross the finish line.
Using this line of reasoning, not all American dollars will make it home in
the rush to divest. Much offshore dollar debt will be destroyed through the
deflation manor of default, even as the onshore currency is hyper-inflated
as a last course of action.
Many major dollar holders understand the dynamic of this new market, as does
Another. They are not, I repeat, NOT investing in gold. They are exchanging
dollars for physical gold and gold instruments that can by their nature be
convertible and denominated in Euros. Gold, in current dollar terms, is
being viewed as a wealth reserve asset, not a dollar reserve vehicle. Anyone
that can grasp this will understand that gold in dollar terms is meaningless
as the dollar will soon not represent any form of value. You might say that
viewing gold in dollar terms, today, is truly pricing it as paper?
To close:
What is happening today, we have no road-map for. Many brokers say they have
been down this trail before and know the way. No they don't! They help you
fight a past war as the enemy destroys your, presumed, gold insurance from
behind. No one need take part in the titanic loses that will envelope the
holdings of all dollar asset investors.
To this end, we come to a fork in the stream, not as the experienced scout,
but rather as a drifter, riding the great economic river of change. Soon,
events will force you to choose a new course. If able, use the history of
gold as your guide. Unlike many humans, it has traveled this route, many
Perhaps Another would say: I watch this historic change with you, as a
fellow traveler in time. As a physical gold holder, it will be an
interesting history we write, yes?
Friend Of Another

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:50 - ID#348129)
@ Owner seeks $50 million in compensation from the United States for the attack
Sudanese lawyer claims factory had no links to bin Laden

KHARTOUM, Sudan ( CNN ) -- As Sudan stepped up its criticism of the U.S. missile attack against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory, a lawyer for the factory owner said Saturday that the owner had no ties to Osama bin Laden, the terrorist the United States blames for the African embassy bombings.

Ghazi Suleiman, the attorney for Salah Idris, owner of El Shifa Pharmaceutical Industries Co., said Idris did not know bin Laden and said the factory produced only drugs, not chemical weapons.

"I think the Americans are under bad information and they are not well briefed," Suleiman said. "I think it would have been prudent before destroying the plant to come and investigate the site."

The Sudanese government, which has been beleaguered by economic failure and 15 years of war with rebels in the south, has used the attack to whip up public support.

At a Saturday rally in Khartoum attended by 5,000 people, President Omar el-Bashir said that Sudanese were prepared to die in a holy war.

"America is attacking us because we are guardians of Islam," el-Bashir said. "We have tasted the sweet flavor of jihad ( holy war ) and martyrdom, and what we seek now is to die for the sake of God."

After el-Bashir's speech, some 500 protesters went to the British Embassy and hurled stones at the building. One demonstrator climbed to the top of the embassy flagpole and cut down the Union Jack, which the angry demonstrators then tore to pieces. The British government approved of Thursday's attack by the United States.

Sudan has asked for a U.N. Security Council meeting to consider an investigation into the factory's production and the attack.

The cruise missile attack demolished the factory and killed one person while wounding nine others. The United States says the factory was producing materials for use in creating deadly VX nerve gas.

Sudanese officials also continued to accuse U.S. President Clinton of ordering the attack to distract U.S. public opinion from his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

"So depending on what the United States government thinks about its own internal position vis-a-vis the American public, we do not rule out the possibility of further strikes," said Sudanese Minister of Information Ghazi Salah Eldin.

The Sudanese are demanding millions of dollars in compensation, for not only the destruction but also the lost income of factory workers.

"Three hundred Sudanese with their families, total of 3,000 Sudanese, they are now out of jobs in an environment of economic depression, so there is no chance for them to find any substitute," Suleiman said.

Suleiman said Idris, who was in London at the time of the attacks, may seek $50 million in compensation from the United States for the attack. He bought the plant in March 1998.

The plant produced 60 percent of Sudan's pharmaceutical drugs and exported as well, Suleiman said. It produced mainly antibiotics, he said.

Suleiman is a leading Sudanese opposition figure who spent 25 days in prison earlier this year. He said Idris has never met bin Laden or spoken of him, and has no political affiliation.

"They are different characters," Suleiman said. "Mr. Idris has no interest in politics. He is a businessman."

Attack also hit candy factory

Three Jordanian engineers who worked at the plant from its 1996 opening to 1997 said Saturday that the plant was not equipped to produce ingredients for chemical weapons.

Addressing a news conference in Amman, Jordan, organized by the Sudanese embassy, the three men said the factory was designed only to produce medical tablets, capsules and vaccines.

The attack by U.S. cruise missiles also hit another plant 550 meters ( 600 yards ) down the road from the Shifa plant. The blast wrecked the storehouse of a candy factory, ruining hundreds of tons of baking ingredients. Cruise missile parts were found in the rubble.

"If this missile was targeting my factory. I don't know. It's something you can't believe it, it's too much," said Mohammed Abbas of the Kardman Sweet Factory.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:51 - ID#280214)
Nicodemus - I noted your post about selling the coach.
I am looking for ways to fortify and defend this building or at least my corner of it. Living above the store is an advantage, maybe. So are the several courses of brick in the walls. But the interior hallways will turn into black caves which will be hard to defend or defend against.
Am I being paranoid? Perhaps I should have recruited friends to be tenants down the hall. The tenants now there may be enemies unless I can persuade them to leave before Y2K - or turn them into friends.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:51 - ID#280214)
Highrise - thank you for the words - haunting, sad
Does anyone remember
"The Prince and the Pauper"?
What was the device of power, of office that the pauper used to crack nuts with? This reminds me of a child in the most powerful office in the world - who has no idea what power he wields or how to wield it correctly.

As erotic and distracting as the Drudge report may be.
I am still more concerned that this man wields the power to commit our military in actions bad and good. He has betrayed our nation to our enemies and bared our naked chest to their sword - and will do yet more of the same. His administration and friends have "facilitated" the "coincidental" or "accidental" deaths of those who threatened him.
What does all this have to do with cigars?
Perhaps that we can not trust this child
with the Presidency of these United States.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:55 - ID#257148)
Chirruping cheroots, Batman!
"When is a cigar more than just a smoke?"
when it's a cheroot

( antipodean pun~~ where "root"=F* )

Boy, this is not looking good. This news will be translated into a score of languages for tomorrow's papers. Bill and Monica do unspeakable things with tobacco while Arafat waits outside? This act will turn a billion more souls against the american empire.

He is too dangerous, too dangerous. Someone better start apologising very publically, very soon. The peace of the world is at stake here, now.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:56 - ID#424394)
Tortfeasor & crazytimes - did I hear a bear call?
Where's the Gold?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 22:59 - ID#424394)
The guys I hang around with will be smoking more cigars now
Cigars have been given a new status.
Their sales will light up. }:- ) ) ) ) ) )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:07 - ID#43349)
Was it lit?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:08 - ID#284255)
Jim Stack
Maximum bear market "DISTRIBUTION."

One DLJ survey of over 6600 stocks on the NY and NASDAQ shows the AVERAGE
stock has now lost -35% from its 52-week high.

Over $1 trillion has already been lost in market value ( capitalization ) .
That is overwhelming any inflows into mutual funds or increase in the money
supply. In that aspect, the market is providing its own monetary trigger -
the equivalent of a rapidly contracting money supply.

Federal Reserve policy itself, still remains supportive for Wall Street. In
our opinion, that will not stop a bear market. But it will keep Wall Street
analysts bullish, and investors fully invested. It will also create very
convincing rallies such as we saw last Monday and Tuesday.

BIG down-week on the technical front. Stick with the technical! This is
going to be a volatile ride down, and we should expect more rally attempts
every step of the way. After all, Wall Street insiders have a lot to lose in
a bear market.

In Asia, our Emerging Markets Index finally showed some stability this week.
But turmoil has now spread to Central and South American markets, and to
Russia- where stocks have lost an amazing 85% in 10 months. This is all
pretty scary...

Gold stocks also held up well in the face of global deflation fears.
Nonetheless, these will be vulnerable if the Asian Crisis worsens;
therefore, we are keeping the positions small until that backdrop

CALL/PUT RATIO : -90, normally deep in "rally" zone, but distorted by the
scramble for portfolio insurance.
FUTURES PREMIUM: 15.99, firm/rising/ and pointing to another rally attempt
on Monday.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:12 - ID#343446)

tort...mon frer...

heard a song the other day......wanna hear it ( again ) ???? it is!; ) ..........


whatcha' gonna do????
whatcha' gonna do when we come for you???

you can buy me off!; )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:18 - ID#280214)
El Borak - re counterfeiting Gold coins
If we can test easily for density or spec. grav.
then there is no way for a Gold coin to be counterfeited
with something less valuable than Gold.
Anything denser than Gold is more expensive than Gold.
The only candidates are Tungsten - way too hard unless pure,
the other platinum group metals - just as or more expensive
Uranium and Plutonium - not very likely and even more expensive.
Tantalum is close at 16.6 but I do not foresee tantalum slugs.

Lead, contrary to literary and Hollywood fiction, is so much
lighter or less dense {11.35 vs 19.35} that it is not even close.

Might there be a neutron absorbtion or similar test?
Given the demand - there would appear the technology
to not just test for surface purity but in-depth density.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:21 - ID#227238)
Thanks for putting up that post from Another's alter ego. A damn fine read and far more interesting than cigars serving as dildo's ...... or dildo's serving as president.

As the process of monetary devolution continues, ( much of ) the Another series takes on more cogency. Yes, we will watch together. ...... Get gold and get it now.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:23 - ID#227238)
Aaaaaargh! Really bad. LOL.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:26 - ID#284255)
Dow chart - 98 years - ROC

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:31 - ID#173274)
Squirrel (counterfeiting Gold coins)
I was thinking specifically of the original Liberty nickels which simply had a "V" on the reverse. The first year of issue, unsavory characters gold plated them and passed them off as $5 gold pieces ( they were quickly replaced by coins with the word "cents" on the reverse ) . If the, merchants who were used to the look and feel of gold misidentified them, I suspect any real circulating gold coin might have the same problem, at least initially.

Excellent food for thought though. I think the day is coming when gold again circulates as money, but the Valley of the Shadow of Death lies between there and here.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:34 - ID#190411)
oh, lighten up aurator. smell the smoke.
According to Ion Pacepa. the ex head of Romanian intelligence, Mr. Arafat has rather queer sexual habits hisself.
I believe that Miss lewinsky was calling attention to the relative merits of a cheroot versus a cigarette.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:35 - ID#424394)
El Borak & Squirrel - fear not the Valley of the Shadow of Death
For I am the meanest SOB in the valley\
( next to tolerant1, retired soldier, and a few other esteemed Kitcoites )

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:38 - ID#280214)
El Borak - a sure-fire way of detecting real .9999 Gold coins...
Look for the indentations in the coin due to mammalian teeth.
That will be a disadvantage though - defacing the coin that is.

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:41 - ID#173274)
Thanks, I feel much safer in such company as yours. By the way, what's up with the copyright notice on every message? It makes me sound like a toy company. For the record, I hereby grant to all permission to copy my rantings and pass them off as your own. Ha! Somehow I doubt I'll get too many takers.

Is this where I say "Go Gold!"?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:42 - ID#424394)
Gollum - even better than just a lit cigar
What if it had one of those novelty shop cigar loads in it?

El Borak__A
(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:45 - ID#173274)
Squirrel - bite the coin
As a kid, I always wondered why Underdog did that...

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of jokes, puns, irrelevant comparisons and fine cigars.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:50 - ID#280214)
Cigar & Cigarette loads - thanks Grizz for reminding me
ANYONE - where can we get those things?
Does anyone know of maybe a little novelty shop somewhere?
Maybe buy a package and note the manufacturer's info.
I will buy a gross of each - now - today.
Make that several gross of the cigarette loads.

Screw the liability question. Lets have some fun!
I could sell them to teenage miscreants for $1 per load.
Okay - maybe 25 cents a load - a dozen to a package for $3.

Kinda dates me doesn't it. Back having fun in the sixties.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:53 - ID#43349)
@El Borak__A
Speaking of Underdog, do you know the meaning of Bar Sinister?

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:54 - ID#390415)
Fascinating and studious article about 1929 crash

It took US stocks until the 50s to recover.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:55 - ID#424394)
Lewinsky brand cigars - and Sunday cartoons
I wonder if the story broke in time for some fast replacements of some of the Sunday cartoons.
Oh Boy, do I look forward to the next issue of the Conservative Chronicle.

(Sat Aug 22 1998 23:57 - ID#432221)
MAN you guys are WIERD, my kids are in the other room RIGHT NOW watchin "Rocky &

Bullwinkle ( Fractured fairy tales just came on )