Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:03 - ID#244418)
The following comments are from Bert Dohmen's Wellington Letter website at

"On Thursday, I had concluded that a bottom in the market was being engineered. For a few hours on Friday my outlook appeared wrong. It may still be. But in the last 45 minutes a big recovery started. The DJI rallied more than 144 points by the close, closing with a loss of 41 points.

Meetings between high officials of Latin American nations, U.S. Treasury Secretary Rubin, Fed head Greenspan, and Japans top finance people are taking place Friday and the weekend. There was little publicity. The U.S. dollar suddenly aborted a very bullish pattern during the week, and the precious metals had a surprisingly strong upmove. For me, analyzing the markets is like chemistry: take a number of known facts, put them together, and see how they fit into a pattern.

On Thursday I saw preliminary clues that the market could have a huge rally after the weekend. A cut in interest rates by the Fed could cause a dollar plunge, and the Index futures would be used to move the stock market upward. The rally could be very sharp.

We will know on Tuesday if my conclusion was correct. For now, its a scenario based on preliminary clues. But if the market is up strongly early on Tuesday, you know weve made at least an intermediate-term bottom. You will want to go with the flow.


Latin America, Russia, and Japan are on the brink of financial crisis. Mr. Rubin knows something must be done. The central bankers seem to be ready to weaken the dollar, possibly lowering interest rates, and thus producing huge rallies in the worldwide stock markets. It could cause a "melt-up."

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:04 - ID#173274)
@the scene
weiser -- As in ALL of life and actions, there are NO guarantees. 12 gauge with 7 shot mag is NOT bad start. Anything bad that happens would be up close in that environment for the most part. Might behoove you to pick up something though that might more equalize some firepower beyond its limitations. About any rifle above a 22 should be 'amenable' to that type of possibility in my opinion, but even THAT will reach out and touch!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:05 - ID#215235)
May the Gators whip the Noles. May the Nittany Lions crush the Buckeyes. And may gold go to $600/oz. Amen, brother!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:07 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Winston -- I wouldn't doubt the scenario for anymore than a nanosecond! But numbers are the things that don't lie. Proof will be in the pudding.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:08 - ID#401460)

Does anybody know if Clinton had a friend on the plane that went down?


(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:11 - ID#255151)
IMF Critical of Russian Plan to Print Rubles

Chernomyrdin's plan is to print Rubles to pay off Russian debts! Well, at least he is up front about it.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:12 - ID#401460)

In your Dreams!

Beat West Virginia


Nitty Lions .....nah!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:13 - ID#255151)
Corrected URL on IMF and Russia They even mention...CAMDESSUS!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:14 - ID#153110)
Look to the past century for your technology. It was then to human scale and fixable, I posted a URL to Allen earlier today that reflects my considered thought. Then Supernaut pointed to one form of the accessory.
Electricity is the sine qua non.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:22 - ID#202123)

Thanks. Appreciate the advice. I do have other options to consider.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:26 - ID#227238)
Though my present life and it's surroundings would give lie to the fact; I have always been a great believer in "simpler is better". There are many gifts from the past and I intend to use them when they fit. ...... but, so far as it's possible, I will use whatever labor saving devices are available, for as long as they are functional.

In the end, I am only concerned about two things; civil discord and the actions of the government. And both are intricately intertwined.

Everything else I can deal with.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:29 - ID#173274)
@the scene
weiser -- Consider that a 12 gauge shooting 00 buck is equivalent to 12 32 caliber bullets being fired at once, with the same ballistics, or even better! NOT to be messed with or slighted! It is one of the most formidable closer-up weapons available!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:30 - ID#238422)
Russia is turning to socialism...
What I see is what I've seen before. There is going to be
nationalization of major industrial enterprises, and private
banks are going to be kicked out of financial arena. Russians
just have no other way left to deal with the problem. Some
private ownership of smaller enterpises will be preserved.

I heard 8 bil. dollars lost in the U.S. in connection with
Russian crisis. This is a joke, the real numbers will be
later estimated to be close to 35-50 bil. It will effect many
good but naive American business people who loaned to
Russia w/o understanding of the Russia's specifics.
They will never collect...

Bad for them, probably good for U.S. military budget and
price of gold. Policial metal, as Privateer likes to repeat.

Once again, the fact that Poland bought 70 tonns of gold seems
to me like an exceptional proof what lays ahead. Poles are
#1 profitmakes in the world...may be #2.

By the way, the only guys that seemed to be able not to loose
any considerable money in Russia were Finns. I'm not surprised.

It's Saturday night - time to talk guns and ammo...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:31 - ID#373403)
Greenspan not very exhuberant
Thus, while the general state of confidence and consumers' and investors' willingness to commit to long-term investment is buttressed by the perceptions of the stability of the society and economy, history demonstrates that that degree of confidence is subject to wide variations. Most of those variations are the result of the sheer difficulty in making judgments and, therefore, commitments about, and to, the future. On occasion, this very difficulty leads to less-disciplined evaluations, which foster price volatility and, in some cases, what we term market bubbles--that is, asset values inflated more on the expectation that others will pay higher prices than on a knowledgeable judgment of true value.

( cut )

We take for granted that contracts will be fulfilled in the normal course of business, relying on the rule of law, especially the law of contracts. But if trust evaporated and every contract had to be adjudicated, the division of labor would collapse. A key characteristic, perhaps the fundamental cause of a vicious cycle, is the loss of trust.

( cut )

The American economic stability of the past five years has helped engender increasing confidence of future stability. This, in turn, has dramatically upgraded the stock market's valuation of our economy's existing productive infrastructure, adding about $6 trillion of capital gains to household net worth from early 1995 through the second quarter of this year.

While the vast majority of these gains augmented retirement and other savings programs, enough spilled over into consumer spending to significantly lower the proportion of household income that consumers, especially upper income consumers, believed it necessary to save.

In addition, the longer the elevated level of stock prices was sustained, the more consumers likely viewed their capital gains as permanent increments to their net worth, and, hence, as spendable. The recent windfall financed not only higher personal consumption expenditures but home purchases as well. It is difficult to explain the recent record level of home sales without reference to earlier stock market gains.

( cut )

An implication of high equity market values, relative to income and production, is an increased potential for instability. As I argued earlier, part of capital gains increases consumption and incomes. Since equity values are demonstrably more variable than incomes, when equity market values become large relative to incomes and GDP, their fluctuations can be expected to effect GDP more than when equity market values are low.

Clearly, the history of large swings in investor confidence and equity premiums for rational and other reasons counsels caution in the current context. We have relearned in recent weeks that just as a bull stock market feels unending and secure as an economy and stock market move forward, so it can feel when markets contract that recovery is inconceivable. Both, of course, are wrong. But because of the difficulty imagining a turnabout when such emotions take hold, periods of euphoria or distress tend to feed on themselves. Indeed, if this were not the case, the types of psychologically driven ebbs and flows of economic activity we have observed would be unlikely to exist.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:31 - ID#202123)
For sure: GO BUCKS!!!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:31 - ID#173274)
@the scene
weiser -- to clarify my garble, that's 'twelve 32 caliber bullets'

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:32 - ID#339212)
TO: Winston
If melt-ups are going to occur when a currency devalues, then
devaluations would be the fix-up of all government screw-ups!

It is obvious that lower interest rates will cause a temporary
bounce in the stock market, which will succumb to the pressure
of a weaker dollar as investment capital finds shelter to other
higher yielding currencies.

Competitive devaluations will cause such turmoil and confusion
in the financial markets, that will eventually propel gold to new
highs as preservation of capital will be more important than
doubtful returns, both in income and of the capital.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:34 - ID#93241)
Greenspan, Rubin out of luck
SAN FRANCISCO ( AP )  U.S. and Japanese officials concluded high-level talks Friday night aimed at containing a spreading global financial crisis with no new policy commitments from Japan on how it plans to revive its sagging economy.
Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and new Japanese Finance Minister Kiichi Miyazawa told reporters in separate briefings that both countries had essentially spent the discussions repeating previous positions.
Japan insisted that it will implement a program of tax cuts and increased government spending and push the Japanese parliament to enact bills to deal with massive bad loans weighing down the banking system.
But the United States, which has been critical of the speed and quality of Japan's program, heard no new proposals during the talks, Rubin told reporters.
Rubin said the revival of Japan's economy is key to putting the global economy back on a sound footing.
Even as Rubin met with the Japanese official, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told an audience that U.S. central bankers are growing more concerned about the global financial crisis' impact on America's economy. Because of the new concerns, he said, Fed policymakers are now just as likely to cut interest rates as to raise them.
Because of the growing financial turmoil, Greenspan suggested, the central bank is no longer poised to raise rates over inflation worries, but is just as concerned now about the threat of a serious slowdown.
Japanese officials had suggested before Friday's meetings the possibility that the world's major economies consider coordinated interest rate cuts to spur growth. But Miyazawa and Rubin both said that subject was not raised in their formal talks.
However, asked about Greenspan's comments, Rubin said he would certainly raise the issue over dinner. Greenspan was scheduled to join Rubin and Miyazawa for dinner later Friday.
For his part, Miyazawa said Japan understood America's concern about the need for the world's second largest economy to deal with its own problems as a way of helping to resolve the Asian crisis.
Both the San Francisco meeting  and Greenspan's speech  took place after financial markets closed in New York. The Dow Jones industrial average closed down 42 points, at 7640.25, leaving it down a total of 411 points for the week.
U.S. officials face a dwindling list of options as the world financial crisis that began a year ago in Asian countries, struck Russia and is now threatening Latin America begins to hit closer to home.
The United States has much riding on the outcome. Although its economy remains strong, many fear the troubles could result in a global recession that would drag down the American economy, which depends in part on selling to customers overseas.
President Clinton's high job-approval ratings are closely tied to the so-far stellar economy, polls indicate. The government reported Friday the nation's unemployment rate held steady at 4.5 percent, near a 28-year low. But job growth is starting to slow in some industries.
Canada, America's largest trading partner, has seen its growth prospects weaken, and Latin American financial markets from Mexico City to Buenos Aires have fallen sharply as nervous investors started a rush for the exits.
Canada, Mexico and the rest of Latin America combined buy 40 percent of America's exports.
In an unprecedented effort to calm fears, the IMF called together Latin American officials, who pledged Friday to keep their economies stable and remain on the path of reform.
Skeptics, though, wonder whether words are enough, believing a rapid recovery in the hardest-hit countries is unlikely.
``These kinds of crises, combined currency and banking crises, often last two to three years at least,'' said Morris Goldstein, a former top IMF economist.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:40 - ID#202123)

Understood. Shotguns are massive firepower up close, aren't they.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:41 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Myrmidon -- Kind of why I expect a short term 'melt-up' of everything, including gold, as 'things get 'sorted out'. THEN gold will continue the 'melt-up' as all else falls!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:46 - ID#173274)
@the scene
weiser -- MOST absolutely!!! But also then consider armor penatration. I understand that a criminal element is using them and unless your shot is not to the head or thereabout, you might be 'incapcitated', so-to-speak. Sometimes, MO-POWER is of 'advantage'.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:48 - ID#153110)
@The Great Snow Whites @Earl @Saudi
"Patrick Kelly, Canada's top undercover drug agent. From the drug factories of Colombia to the mean streets of North American cities, it traces Kelly's brilliant career as an agent, and his dark transformation into a rogue cop. Spending at the rate of $25,000 a month when he was only making $21,000 a year, Kelly began to sell his services to foreign intelligence services for large cash payments." My guess is it is son of Ptrick who is running the drugs into Montana nowadays. How do these things happen in a perfect social demoncracy with free brain surgery ?

@Earl Civil discord will have nothing lasting to do with government action. Financial discord will. Those who are being Fed will want to continue to be served by the feeders. On the other, do not wait too long to think through the difficulties of fending off disease without electricity.

@Any information on the identity of the Saudi on Swissair will be appreciated.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:48 - ID#264289)
Merrill Lynch bullish on Gold?
MoReGoLd and @geoffs: I talked last week with Stephan Spicer, manager for the Central Fund of Canada, ( CEF.A ) which holds 130,000 oz. of gold bullion and 6.5 million oz. of silver. I have bought some shares there since it is a way that I can have exposure to bullion in my RRSP ( I'm Canadian, eh? ) He said CEF was contacted by Merrill Lynch and that they were recently listed as an "approved" investment.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:48 - ID#227238)
The Finns have been able to keep their skins because during the cold war, they needed the Finns more than the Finns needed them. In the process, the Finns learned how to deal with them. ...... If one is to dance with a bear, it's first necessary to be light on one's feet. Eh?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:52 - ID#373403)
Did you all miss this?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:53 - ID#173274)
@the scene
mozel -- care to extrapulate a bit? - 'do not wait too long to think through the difficulties of fending off disease without electricity.'

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:56 - ID#286230)
Mental health treatment and the Prison system are free to all as well

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:58 - ID#227238)
I have a clean flowing river that passes my parlor door. ..... I'm mostly concerned about it flowing through my parlor door. .... {:- ) )

But your comments on electricity are being addressed. I've even looked into steam power to run a generator. Mostly toys available. ..... Are you looking at alternatives besides the obvious??

(Sat Sep 05 1998 00:58 - ID#153110)
Having water, moving water, heating water.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:00 - ID#173274)
@the scene
mozel -- AH! That as an important clarification!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:01 - ID#93241)
Check out following URL's for info on Swissair passengers. Nothing specific on Saudi princes although there was apparently one Saudi citizen on board.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:01 - ID#202123)
@Eldorado. I agree

And lets hope not to many thugs have that.

Time to hit the sack here. I'm mainly a lurker, so if you don't see me, I'll still be here. And really, GO GOLD!!!


(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:01 - ID#238422)
While being in agreement with you on use of 12 gauge
at close quaters, I would personally prefer not to allow
hostile elements to get closer than 50 yards to the line
of defence, so I like semi-auto rifles in .30 cal. I also
agree that .22 rimfire is not the best choice, but...I got
TOZ-12 .22 cal. Russian-made single shot
target rifle ( 27" barrel ) , which demonstrated that it's good
enough to stop anything up to 150 lbs. ( my technical estimate )
at 100 yards assuming that CCI
Stinger is used and shot is placed as desired. Once I shot
at some bad animal weighting aprox. 110 pounds at 120-130
yards ( Stinger HP, micrometer peep sight, no scope ) , hit it,
honestly, exactly between it's angry eyes, and poor bad animal
immediately dropped dead like being hit with.50 cal.BMG.
Everybody who was present at the scene was surprised,
including myself..Guess this was just a lucky shot, but on
the other hand it seems that good peep sight is as good
as scope up to 100 yards if target is bigger than 4-5".

Just a hunting tale from the crypt. Good night, my comrade
in arms...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:06 - ID#153110)
@Canadian Air Crash Investigations
Nova Scotia Tourism, apparently a local office of Canadian Prisons, Inc., banned visitors to Peggy's Cove until further notice.

Canadians, unable independently to investigate an air crash, possibly for reasons of mental health, called in US NTSB and accompanying US Federales wearing dark glasses and sporting fancy armament, to facilitate the coverup "investigation" of the crash of a Swiss jet liner.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:09 - ID#238422)
Finland and USSR were always in very close economic
cooperation. Finns made a lot of money and Russians
benefited a lot also. No doubt that Finns know how to
deal with Russians. On private business level, Poland
and Russia are known to have very intense relations.
It's interesting that both Finland and Poland used to
be the part a part of the Russian Empire until 1917,
so they learned to dance with the bear a long time ago...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:09 - ID#286230)
Not just Swiss Air that is in Steep decline
Sure they did. And it is possible to work for the Canadian Gov for
21, 000 a year.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:10 - ID#213219)

An interest rate drop will not be enough to weaken the dollar RELATIVE to most currencies and spur US exports, let alone even slow imports. All paper will be weak.

I think that for our stock market, earnings will be the downfall, lack of profitability will mean job cuts and a major fall in tax revenues. I often wonder how the interest on the hoard of treasuries will be paid.

Discerning domestic investors and foreigners who have already been burned by the fall in their own currencies and equity markets will have few choices to fall back on, the US markets and dollar will not be one of them.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:13 - ID#227238)
An option here in the NW is a small tent stove. I just bought one the other day for elk season. It will also serve in an emergency for all sorts of things. Heating water would be just a mundane task. I also intend to have an oven fabricated. As soon as I decide how it should be constructed. I want to line it with refractory brick for general useage now and sized so I can heat it with a two burner propane camping stove or set it on top of the wood stove.

The whole business can be set up outdoors on the patio. One or two lengths of stove pipe should provide adequate draft.

Also, about a month ago, I purchased a smoker cooker which is just a wonderful invention. It's a two chamber device. One small chamber for the heat source and the second larger chamber for cooking. Did a brisket in it the on Wednesday and had some friends over for dinner. Bastards didn't even leave me enough for a sandwich the next day. ....... The heat source can wood or charcoal ...... or dried moose turds, I suppose.

All of these things are, in the end, nothing more than an extended exercise in problem solving. They are - or can be - even interesting to solve. But, it would be nice to have has many solved as possible. Beforehand rather than after the fact.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:16 - ID#153110)
@But can you work for Canadian Govt for $21K a year
and get to the top like Patrick Kelley ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:18 - ID#255151)
SwissAir Update

There is a partial list of passengers posted here. "Alsaud, Bandar" is indeed listed. It does not say if that is the Crown Prince. http:/

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:18 - ID#227238)
Yes, I know. My grandparents ( both sides ) emigrated from Finland about 1900. Their immigration papers listed Russia as the country of origin.

"A thousand Swedes ran through the weeds. Chased by one good Finlander".
A bit of doggeral from the past.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:18 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Oris -- Like I said, a 22 AIN'T all that bad sometimes. It CAN reach out and touch! Don't always expect miracles though, and DO NOT expect armor penetration. But they damn well should perform quite decently against 4 footed beasties, winged critters sitting placidly upon a pond, idiots proclaiming their rights upon you for, the most part, unless they are 'jacketted', etc. 22 can be GOOD and DAMN CHEAP!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:19 - ID#286230)
Can't work for any Canadian gov for 21000.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:22 - ID#255151)
SwissAir-Alsaud URL correction

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:23 - ID#227238)
I do believe that a case could be made for a good .22 cal as an only firearm. For both subsistence hunting and protection. ....... A flashlight and a 22 were a source of provisions on more than one occasion when I was a kid. My father favored it because it didn't make a lot noise. ....... and he wasn't interested in trophys.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:23 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Explorer -- Re: I often wonder how the interest on the hoard of treasuries will be paid.

It cannot be. Not in dollars anyway. It'll be 'paid' in blood and tears. That is how it is always paid.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:26 - ID#153110)
The smoker cooker is a great addition. I knew someone who swore by his. Had forgotten about it. Would it preserve meat ?

Coal keeps. Wood can be got. Don't count on any other fuel. I should have thought this through better myself. If I'm going to have to cut and haul wood for heat ( and is there a longer term alternative ? ) , I sure plan to get more out of it than just hot air. And I wouldn't fancy dipping water out of a river and hauling it even 30 yards. That essential of life is heavy.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:27 - ID#93241)
Finlanders sure put a whippin' on the Russkies in WWII. Took a lot of Russian tanks to take small portions of Finland early in the war and they never could knock the Finns out of the war. I got the impression the average Russian soldier didn't really want to fight the Finns, especially on Finnish soil. The Finns excelled in winter warfare, where undoubtably the Russians acquired skills to use against the Nazis later in '42 & '43.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:28 - ID#286230)
Earl: You should try salmon with your smoker but stand guard to ward off the neighbourhood cats.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:35 - ID#170211)
If Abby Cohen is
so sure of Dow 9300 by the end of the year, maybe it's because of the language AG used when he said to the effect that there's as good a chance of interest rates declining now as going up. Won't the decline in rates by the Fed be the push the Dow needs to get it back to Ms. Cohen's goal? That's why the bonds are up and it should come as no surprise, and maybe gold is also factoring that in to its rise of the past few days in addition to all of the competing currency and banking and government and morality collapses.

That's the thesis. Somebody please shoot at it.

Also, I just visited HL's Rosebud Mine in NW Nevada. Lots of high grade, low cost, and exploration upside that is mouthwatering. Maybe HL will become known as a gold producer instead of a silver one.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- I know that a 22 'could' be ones only weapon. I used one for many successful years in hunting small game. Unfortunately, I think that times dictate that a 'lowly' 22 might not be quite enough. I'll admit that I currently do not even own one that small at this time, though I've got it in mind to go shopping again for one. The bullets are dirt cheap and the doggone thing WILL do most of what might be required. probably up to 90 % of what is required! What is there to argue against. Nothing, except having the wrong 'tool' in hand at the wrong time; that other 10%! That is all!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:40 - ID#227238)
The big home improvement chains have 'em. They're only a couple of hundred bucks and they're heavy gage steel. The whole assembly weighs about 160 lbs. Really. But it's on wheels. ..... some assembly required.

If yer buckin' yer own wood, plan on southern hardwoods. Hickory, pecan etc. Do not use resinous softwoods. Obviously. Not unless you harbor a taste for pine.

Yes, you can smoke for preservation as well. But there's some good books on the subject. ..... Like the country hams of your forebears: lotsa salt and smoke.

For these, less interesting times, I like to use charcoal for heat and chunks of hickory to control smoke flavor. I have found that charcoal cannot drive the temperature up too high. But wood will in an instant.

A plus is that cooking at 250 degrees +/-, leaves ample time for savoring adult beverages as you prepare the dipping sauce. On the outdoor camp stove. Of course. ...... And when you're done ..... the garden hose suffices nicely for "cleaning up the kitchen".

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:43 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- I really like that 'adult beverage' while cooking and the garden hose for cleanup. Someday ALL households will know of what yee speak ( if men put their foot down! ) !

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:46 - ID#227238)
Yes that's a high priority. Unfortunately, our salmon are on the endangered species list. They closed the Columbia today to all salmon fishing. Now I have to wait for the coast runs to start later this month.

But there is tuna in abundance. The ports are clogged with US fisherman trying to sell their catch. Price is down to buck a pound. I canned about 60 lbs ( net ) last month. Can't stand to look at another one right now. Or smell it.

..... It seems the canneries favor foreign vessel who are anxious to get some of them high valued yankee dollars for their catch.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:48 - ID#255151)
Time to Buy Gold and Mounties

Just ordered some Gold from Kitco. Got to speak to Bart himself. Got some info about the Mountie. There are only 21,500 in existence. The Royal Canadian Mint has melted down 8,500 of them.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:50 - ID#153110)
How the interest will be paid::: "in blood and tears". So true.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:51 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- Those salmon sell out here for about 10 bucks per 3-4 inch slice of a fillet and a little veggie at a restaurant. Talk about a goldmine!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:54 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- Did you ask how many are left, and what my commission is from your purchase; Re: the other night?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:56 - ID#173274)
@the scene
mozel -- Yes, and unfortunately, so true..

(Sat Sep 05 1998 01:57 - ID#227238)
In the winter war of 1939/40, the Finns immobilized tanks by infiltrating at nite and pouring water on the treads. Circumstances did the rest ...... Since Finns have an aversion to bathing and never add water to their whiskey, it was never considered much of a sacrifice. {:- ) )

In my reading of the period the loss ratio was something on the order of 10:1. But in the end there were, and are, more Russians than Finns. A very complicated period for the Finns.

But that was only one of the many wars between the two. Most of them lost by the Finns. ..... Guess they finally decided there is better way to fix them rascals. Much like the Native Americans and their casinos.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:00 - ID#433172)
So why does lowering interest rate ( which ) a little mean the DOW will go up? Japan has low rates and their stock market is hardly bustin out all over.

I know it's a "dumb" question but I can't see whats so important about a point or two of interest. A lot of other factors seem morem important.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:04 - ID#227238)
The probability is very high that those salmon fillets came from a fish farm in Norway not the NW. ...... The government has been responsible for preservation of the resource. It's apparent that they have done a good job. They have sold it all out to the highest political bidder. ..... Between the dams and hyper active logging, not much remains. ..... Just the dams.

The world needs a rest. Let the depression begin.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:06 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- And, unfortunately, I think that type of story, in essence, will be repeated here. I do not however think that the 'hug-the bear' routine will follow! Some 'things' DO/will change. Not easily, mind you!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:07 - ID#227238)
The conventional wisdom would dictate that if interest rates go down, so will the cost of call money. And so people would feel inclined to exand their levels of margin debt. ..... Already gigantic. Maybe it will go to astronomical.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:13 - ID#33164)
Saudi Royal@Mozel/Auric
CNN had an article yesterday, which now seems to have disappeared.
-here's an extract:
" Saudi government sources told CNN that Bandar bin Saud bin Saad bin Abdul Rahman--signed in as a passenger more simply as Bandar Alsaud--was a grandson of former King Abdul Aziz's brother."

Who Cares?
(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:14 - ID#242328)
Nikkei and Low Interest Rates

The low interest rates in Japan have only prevented their stock
market from completely collapsing.

The Japanese stock market did its 'busting out all over" from
'86 to 90, and the Japanese are merely trying to prevent a
complete meltdown now. And have been for the past seven

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:15 - ID#255151)
Eldorado 01:54

Forgot to ask how many Mounties they still have for sale. I'd like to know that too. ( must defer to Mr. Kitner on any commission questions: ) )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:19 - ID#227238)
Who Cares?:
And for all of those years they have depended on us to continue acting as a sink for all of the goods they produce for export. ..... I believe that's undergoing some changes, as we speak. I don't think their "Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" will be able to pick up the slack.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:22 - ID#153110)
The Saudi does not seem to me to be the Crown Prince.
The number of passengers is now up nearer the plane's capacity of 285.
What will the black boxes say ? Was it simply an accident after all ?
Like Flight 800 ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:28 - ID#250121)
Late breaking Trout news
Klinton's Rhode's Scholarship should be a warning to us all. This ( ig ) noble prize should disqualify the meretricious recipient from ever holding public office.

``smugness, brutality, unctuous rectitude and tact"

Cecil Rhodes own sardonic paraphrase of the criteria for a Rhodes

30% for "literary and scholarly attainments";
20% for "fondness of and success in manly outdoor sports";
30% for "qualities of manhood, truth, courage, devotion to duty...";
20% for "moral force of character and instincts to lead and to take an
interest in his school-mates".

"I never add water to my whisky; fish f*ck in water."
( I forgot who said dat )

Damgobmint quietly slipped a change in regs that now allows trout to be sold in NZ. Bad news for the recreational fishers, bad news.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:28 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- Actually, I'm simply happy to hear that you bought some pieces. That's 'commission' enough.

Allow me to express my extreme pleasure in granting you the 'goldbug badge of the day'. Hurrah! I'm sure that you WILL show and place the pieces in view of the cognizant it in the proud and traditional honor of goldbugs everywhere! I salute you in your expertise in selection of value and beauty!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:32 - ID#227238)
That's alright, with your lousy backcast the fish were not available to you anyway. At least now you will be able to buy a catch ( brace? ) or two. .... {:- ) )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:32 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Damn, got a misplaced 'it' after 'cognizant'! Damn, damn!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:36 - ID#153110)
I see no use personally for a .22. Trapping is ever so much more economical of time and energy if food is the aim.

In a fight the .22 will not penetrate cover, will not reach, and will not as surely damage an extremity. I think R.S. has talked me into an upgrade from .308 to 30/06. Cleaning the Garand is a greater chore, but nothing is free.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
mozel -- Know of anyone that ever stated that 'precise meanings should be stated precisely'? If not, I'll copyright it. Then I'll hand it off to you...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:39 - ID#255151)

Can get them for $3-2-5. RCM will guarantee $310 until Y2K, about a 3% risk of investment loss if Gold tumbles. Consider that safety versus having your money in US$ investments. Am also wondering if there could be a numismatic angle to the Mountie, since about 30% have been melted. Any thoughts?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:46 - ID#227238)
I wasn't aware that possession of one obviated the other. Road kills are even easier. .... {:- ) ) .... Setting a snare or two while on the prowl for voles and field mice is always an option. ...... Which reminds me, I haven't seen a Victor leg hold trap in a coon's age. .... So to speak. Heaven forbid that anyone would deign to use a leg hold trap in 'Merica.

On the big bore cannons; unless yer on the great plains shooting someone out of an outhouse, anything over 150 yards in most other settings requires a vivid imagination. Nothing wrong with the them. Just trying to be realistic.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:47 - ID#153110)
Thanks. I do better when I preview these things.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:47 - ID#173274)
@the scene
mozel -- Only said that a 22 will do much of the job. not ALL of it. A 30-06 will certainly do more of the job, but that sure as hell can be a real waste of good ammo under small game conditions, or fending off wild packs of dogs. If one NEEDS to fire through brush, or reach WAY out there, then a 30-06 is OK but a 300 Win Mag would be quite a bit flatter in trajectory. One must define their 'terms'.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:49 - ID#255151)

Truly honored by the Gold award! The tide has turned in the War on Gold, eh. A gulp & puff to Gold and Mounties!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:53 - ID#250121)
True words indeed. Spinning, trolling, jigging OK, Flyfishing I needs time for much more practice, hmmmm.

I shan't say the best Salmon rivers down under, but Beautiful Jewel and I are both planning to be near one on 1/1/00. I asked her long ago to tell me if ever she heard anyone talk about gold at her work. She came back from conference in Fiji today and told me one of her workmates was telling everyone to buy gold coins. She proudly showed-off her Maple.

People are talking.
Milton's words ring true throughout the ages...

"Time will run back and fetch the Age of Gold.. And speckled Vanity will sicken soon and die.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:56 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- Anybody ever consider the Saints or Libertys as numismatics when they were new? I don't think many did. The Mounties will probably wind up in that 'role' IF gold isn't equated with dirt and thrown into the streets. Personally, I view that more in the way of gold stocks, or times SO damn bad that one wouldn't want to be alive anyway. Or perhaps the gold has essentially already been thrown in the streets! Or perhaps I just do not know, which is probably more precise than anything above.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:58 - ID#227238)
I vote with you. I truly see this rise as a sea change in general sentiment regarding PMs. From what I have seen this week on the retail level locally and from other similar reports on this site, new buying is coming in and it is moving quickly.

The shorts will undoubtedly make another stab at resetting their positions at higher levels but I think there is now rising demand in the US that will swamp the shorts. Lower interest rates will have a devastating effect as well. ...... It will be interesting to see what lease rates do as the Fed lowers its rates. We may get some indication of how serious the central banks are to carry on the fight against higher gold prices.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 02:59 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Auric -- Re: A gulp & puff to Gold and Mounties!! DAMN RIGHT!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:01 - ID#250121)
trapping/distilling water,,,,low tech,,,, new frontier talk?
Yes, trapping. It is very important to know and use traps for your indigenous animal life ( some of yours and probably our will be armed ) . The maori were/are expert at trapping birds in trees, fashioning fish-hooks from dog-bone and paua ( an indigenous abilone/haliotis ) .
Suggest add fabrication of solar still to list of low-tech survival needs. Bound to be links somewhere for a variety of designs.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:05 - ID#227238)
Truth be known, my back cast could use some polish as well. Never was that good to begin with. But we have a problem fishing the rivers here with all the dams. ...... Just when you make a good cast, the line swoops downstream and gets snagged in one a them turbines. Next thing you know, here comes a bill from the Bonneville Power Admin. for damages. ..... and a course they never return the fly.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:12 - ID#153110)
@Earl @Eldorado
My idea of realistic begins with admission that the terms of circumstances will not necessarily be dictated by me. If they were, I might well have a Weatherby with Leopold scope right now. To supplement.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:13 - ID#227238)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall that a basic requirement for a solar application of any kind is that you have some sun available. Something we live without for 7 months of the year. Nov 1 to May 1. ..... Which reminds to put a good rainbarrel on the list. ...... Fresh potable water readily available on 1/1/00. The height of the water catching season.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:17 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Well Hell! Hate to leave this fine scene but shuteye does call. I'll have to catch up later.... Enjoy!

Oh, and mozel, 'realistic' is in the eye of the 'overall' beholder. If that were not so, we would NOT be in the 'overall' situation we currently are in. Unfortunately for them, and I'm sure, us, the 'eye-of-beholder' is going to undergo an intensive 'eye-exam'!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:19 - ID#227238)
Had a rig just like that. A 300 Weatherby. A lovely piece of machinery with 3 X 9 Leupold scope. But what a cannon. All too soon it scared the crap out of me to pull the trigger. Sighting in one of those things is an experience you won't duplicate on a weekend.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:23 - ID#153110)
A gallon a day per person. No sweat with a river next door.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:25 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- But getting knocked halfway on your ass and putting your dislocated arm and eardrums back in order is only HALF the fun! Then you have to retrieve the meat you shot from 400 yards out ( or more ) , or turn yourself a couple degrees and do it again. MASSIVE! But worthwhile!!! MO_POWER!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:25 - ID#280214)
re Mounties, Eagles, Maple Leafs & Small Purchases
Often small buys are discouraged by minimum commissions, shipping charges and insurance which make buying one or two coins prohibitively expensive unless one has nearby access to a walk-in coin dealer who has prices competitive with the mail order dealers. A lot of areas have no such access and even if they do, often the trip and traffic is not worth saving $5 or $10.

Sale Price Per Mountie: $325.00
Minimum shipping charge: $30.00
Insurance per Mountie:$1.30

Another Example:
Gold Maple Leaf:$305.00
Minimum Commission: $45.00
Minimum Shipping:$10.00

An Example of a VERY SMALL purchase:
Gold American Eagle 1/10oz: $35.00
Minimum Shipping & Insurance:$10.00

A Simpler/Cheaper Way?
5 10-grain $7.95 Gold coins: $39.75
Postage for under 1 oz:.32
COST FOR FIVE COINS {1/10oz} $41.07
{actually 5/48ths of an ounce}

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:31 - ID#227238)
I'm a great fan of conservation. ......

I've heard it said,
And I guess it's true,
That too much bathin',
Will ruin you.

Failing that, and depending upon the pulchritude of the ship's company, communal bathing comes highly recommended. Purely from a conservation of resources point of view. Of course.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:35 - ID#280214)
Solar anything in the N. Hemisphere in January
It will be better than nothing but not very hot - especially during the spring storms of February, March and April when cloudiness increases.
If the power grid stays down for months then come spring and summer solar could really help out. But winter is when we need it the most - so we are back to piles of cordwood or a 1000 gallon tank of propane or a 1000 gallon tank of fuel or all three for cooking, heating and engines for vehicles and generators.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:35 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Hell you guys! All you have to do is add a 'compensator' to the end of your barrel, or IN your barrel, that will take care of most of the kick. Shoot, you could buy a 50 cal with that on it and it will have a hell of a lot less kick than the typical Win Mag of the 300 Cal size. Don't let MO-POWER scare you off! NO-PER!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:37 - ID#227238)
In me yout I spent 5 years defending democracy and our cherished traditions by fixing jet bombers. Long before the advent of today's ear protection. Later I spent some years as an avid trap shooter. Again with inadequate hearing protection. Now I suffer from tinitis with a gradual loss of hearing. ....... I don't need to fool with large loud toys. ..... I have often wondered about folks who served artillery pieces in the military. They must suffer intolerably in their later years.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:38 - ID#173274)
@the scene
NOW I'M off to the nether world of dreams! Later...

John Disney
(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:42 - ID#24135)
Hacker me no Hakas ..
For Salty ..
I like Maoris too. I particularly admire the way
they have learned to sing all those ALL BLACK Hakas.
.. What talent..

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:42 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Earl -- There are a lot of most-excellent noise suppressors on the market; even those that let you otherwise hear normally, but block the 'BANGS'. Check 'em out.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:45 - ID#153110)
@Eldorado @Earl @Aurator
Eldorado. The compensator works.

Earl There is no allotment for bathing in one gallon per day per person.
It will more likely be the second winter that kills than the first.

Aurator A solar whiskey still appeals. And solar recharge for small batteries. And solar preheat for washing dishes, clothes, & bodies. But no basic life support in these latitudes.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:47 - ID#227238)
That'd be my thought: Hunker down 'round the barrel stove. .... Just a spittin' 'n a bitchin'.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:49 - ID#24135)
Advanced GET ..
gave a signal on ASA as I reported
yesterday .. I bought calls on the
opener .. wont know price till
monday ..
ASA up 2 1/4 on the day..
Ben got some also using dogs
version of software "Advanced Fetch"
( old joke )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:50 - ID#254288)
Japan must use Public Funds to help Banks--Rubin

Translated: If you bastards don't do what I'm asking. all us rich sob's will never get our money back.
His words: "The world needs Japan to rise to the economic challenge" mean please save our sorry asses.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:53 - ID#24135)
Rubinese ..
for Jack ..
You translate clearly and are
completely fluent .. when were you
in Rubinia ??

(Sat Sep 05 1998 03:58 - ID#153110)
@Jack @Disney
Your talent for translation deserves a wider audience.
I'm thinking, based on limited data, that GS's going public and GS's little overhang in Mexico are related somehow. If the IPO don't get out the door before the end of euphoria, I think we will hear news. Abby ain't on News Covers for nothin'.

Disney, does the Advanced Get manual say what kind of signal it gives when defaults gum up the works at LBMA ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:08 - ID#280214)
ERLE re your 22:15 steal!
Some folks just don't know what they have or maybe they don't care cuz they are too illiterate/ignorant to know better. Selling 7 volumes of "The History of Civilization" for 25 cents each says a lot about how much they value history and books in general. Thank gosh they ended up with somebody who values them. Do you remember the scene from "Dances With Wolves" where the Union soldier uses pages from our hero's diary to wipe his ass? After Y2K I can conceive of people using pages from encyclopedias and novels for TP. Maybe that puts a new meaning to having their heads up their asses.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:13 - ID#254288)
Disney@dis is a reeeeply fron da'lander free

Ah live in da gud'ole USA, dat kin be transa'lay'TED ( weres dat guy? ) az lower Rubinia. Ah livz;da lan'der free. Heer Wee ahls free ta be skewed bei'dem poways'dat bee.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:20 - ID#153110)
Naw. Now, pay that feller Jack no mind. Free brain surgery and free food stamps and free social security is what land o' the free means here in Clintonia.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:22 - ID#280214)
Allen(USA) re flash floods
1 ) I could duck into a burrow with a bubble - flash floods are quickly gone.
2 ) I could crawl on top of a piece of flotsam.
3 ) I'll let the waters lift me to ever higher levels cuz I can cling to those canyon walls. When the waters recede I will be left high and dry in new territory that I couldn't reach before.

John Disney
(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:39 - ID#24135)
Advanced Get ..
for Mozel ..
Effect of defaults at the LBMA are
planned for the next upgrade..
No joke .. great software .. bit
pricey .. like say 2 years wages
for my gardener.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:42 - ID#254288)
Mozel, I like your ideas,

but damn, how do you propose to institute them.

Give us a concrete plan, shouldn't we be dumping the Federal Reserve and get rid of this usery bull crap that the US taxpayer has to service?

Is putting a rare substance like gold in the hands of the public when you damn well know the rich bastards controlling the money system already own the visable hoard, the answer?

Come on Mozel, your smart, you have the answers, as a patroitic American with shades of statesmenship,here on Kitco--Tell us what to do?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:48 - ID#250121)
The risk of holding paper........Mullberry mullberry mullberry...
"... when defaults gum up the works at LBMA ..."
Sounds like you, too, see Liquidity Risk and Herstatt risk in the same way as I. There is the fuse, here is the flame.....Paper burns, and, in the gathering gloom, gold will gain both in lustre and in potency.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 04:54 - ID#255151)
Starr Wars Update

Starr report to be damning. Charges include perjury, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering. This is like an asteroid on a collision course with the Executive Branch of the US Government. Clinton is going to take a WHOLE lot down with him. This includes the Justice Department, the Clinton inner circle, Hillary, US Secretary of State Madeline Notbright, etc.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:24 - ID#45173)
Fed still stuck
The Fed is under pressure to lower interest rates to head off deflation and recession. However, lower interest rates will slow the flow of foriegn capital into the US debt market, requiring domestic capital to take up the slack just as domestic capital moves from Treasuries back in to the equities markets.

After ever significant economic downturn, Fed is always blamed. In hindsight, the Fed response to a crisis turns out to be a catalyst for a disaster, although the Fed's move at the time was logical. The genius of AG is that he tends to do little, allowing the markets to take their course. But he is under pressure to drop interest rates to spur growth. We can be almost certain that introducing any interest rate change into a highly unstable world economy characterized by a currency and debt crisis will have unintended negative consequences for which the Fed will be blamed.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:34 - ID#237264)

Please give us a concrete answer when you have the F__*en timr, otherwise I conclude you are full of crap.

Lets face it, when a Kitco poster eats up band width with long dissertations and who poses as a friend of the metals and doesn't give a concrete solution, something is not right.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:37 - ID#261155)
sissy...... try the weatherby 300 mag's fur girls.....

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:39 - ID#26793)
Greenspan says he is "as inclined to cut interest rates as to raise them" ???

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:43 - ID#261155)
whas wrong is the rubber stamp machine Jackson set in place..before Jackson, EVERY act of Congress had to pass the constitutional test, before it became law... what does an act of congress pass now, except the hat.......uh huh as t1 would be want to say.... owhooooooooo and that's me wolf commin for thee

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:44 - ID#45173)
AG is testing the waters with the first suggestion that he may drop rates. The reaction of the stock market to this trial baloon will determine what he does and when. My guess is that the market rallies next week at the possibility of a rate cut. If that happens, no rate cut. If it does not rally, then the rate cut happens soon, perhaps as soon as next week or the week after.

Just a guess.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:45 - ID#280214)
Jack - plans for Gold in the hands of the average Joe and Jan 6-packs.
Tiny Gold coins minted by the thousands or millions and sold for under US$10 to every Tom, Kim, and Carrie.
Here is a scan of a miniature US 1 dollar coin I bought in novelty shop. ( it appears larger due my scanning it at 200dpi )
That same coin can be minted in .99995 Gold.
Cost of the Gold? 10 grains for about US$6
Cost of minting after setup and upfront costs? Good Question.
A package of six US$1.95 retail. I know they cost under US$1.00 to the fellow selling them since he typically doubles his cost to arrive at his retail price. THESE MINIATURES WERE MINTED SOMEWHERE FOR 10 to 15 CENTS EACH. Probably the lower number since I doubt the retailer gets them directly from the manufacturer. Maybe they are hand stamped by Chinese peasants. Surely a modern mass-production mint could do as well.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:47 - ID#45173)
Of course, there's another way to look at this. Maybe from where AG sits it's hard to tell if his next move should be designed to forstall deflation or inflation. A move the wrong way could prove enormously destructive. AG is strongly motivated to do nothing.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:49 - ID#93241)
Squirrel 3:25
Where do you live that you're paying a $45 commission on a maple leaf? Yikes, that's steep. I've never paid more than $20 commission over & above spot. And I thought that was high...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:49 - ID#280214)
Dave - for close quarters
I'll be using either a 44magnum with 300 grain hollow points
or a 12 gauge riot gun with 3" 00 buckshot loads.
or maybe both - one in each hand ( and Silencio Magnums over my ears! )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:50 - ID#26793)
The greatest worry of Greenspan and the Fed is the bond market. It is much larger than the stock market. A rate cut will be seen as inflationary and could well tank long term bonds; just after everyone bought them in recent weeks of "safe haven" investing.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:51 - ID#261155)
now you got it, the sign of a pro.. nuttin, don know nuttin and don make no damn waves....

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:53 - ID#280214)
strat - I refused to pay that $45 commission which
Blanchard wanted for such a small order ( plus the shipping ) .
So I bought from AJPM instead - they only added $10 shipping.

But even at the $20 you mentioned -
it makes the tiny purchase prohibitively expensive.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:55 - ID#261155)
@Squirrel, well I mus
be outta place...cause i like to do it like ATT, with a lil 22, bt I wanna touch em before I dial em.....

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:55 - ID#26793)
HK Monetary Authority announces steps to stabilize the HK dollar.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:57 - ID#26793)
Brazil calls for a U.S. interest rate cut to aid struggling economies of the world

John Disney
(Sat Sep 05 1998 05:58 - ID#24135)
Uncle John wants YOU!!!
for Jack copy Mozel
Knowledge is its own reward .. I believe some sort
of military solution may be in order. Suicide troops
may be needed .. I have taken the liberty of entering
your name.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:01 - ID#93241)
I checked out your site and they got the Eagle priced about $15 over spot plus shipping. That's about what I've been paying.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:03 - ID#261155)
i am gonna give up my bndwidt in favor of my wolf.......

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:03 - ID#280214)
Does anyone know where the miniature coins are minted
that I posted a picture of in my 05:45?
They are only 1 cm in diameter. Some are even smaller.
Somehow I doubt that the novelty shop owner that I bought them from will be anxious to share his sources with a potential competitor.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:04 - ID#26793)
Dollars flee Brazil as markets fall

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:07 - ID#26793)
Bank of Mexico says there is no quick fix to the Latin American currency crisis

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:11 - ID#26793)
More Latin American Finance Ministers call for U.S. rate cut

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:11 - ID#280214)
strat - buying 1 ounce Gold coins is one thing, esp. lots of 'em
But how about the buyer who only wants a few 1/10 ounce coins
or maybe only one 1/4 ounce coin. That $10 shipping and any minimum orders make it tough.
I mailed 6-packs of the coins in my 05:45 to Chas for 32 cents and to our antipodeans for only 60 cents since they came in under 1/2 ounce. ( around the world may take two weeks to get though - which is also how long it takes Blanchard to ship stuff from the time I send them a check ) .

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:17 - ID#93241)
I just remembered there is a private mint in Cincinnati that mints coins for car washes etc, etc. It's one of the oldest, or the oldest private mint in the States. I'll see if I can't find it. They do a lot of private stuff. Also, there is a manufacturer's directory for the US ( Thomas directory? ) , the name of which escapes me right now. I had their website bookmarked, but the volumes should be in your public library. Just ask your librarian for help.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:17 - ID#21275)
plunge protection team

How to turn a dive into a bungee jump


It is known as the "plunge protection team", an emergency council of top
financial officials in the United States that operates with its own special staff in
the shadows of the Treasury.

Since the stock market crash of October 1987, the group has been drawing up
contingency plans for the next market meltdown. This week it appeared for a
while that its moment might have come.

The purpose of the outfit, known officially as the Working Group on Financial
Markets, is to avoid repeating the near catastrophe of October 19, 1987,
when the Dow Jones index fell 22.6 per cent in a single day, and then followed
with a nosedive the next morning.

At that time, the US financial authorities had no response mechanism in place.
The Federal Reserve managed to prevent a total breakdown in the payment
and settlement system by injecting huge amounts of liquidity into the banking
system, but it was an alarmingly close-run affair.

Afterwards, it was agreed the government needed something better than
last-minute improvisation.

The team is led by the Treasury Secretary, Mr Robert Rubin. As the crisis
gathered pace last week, Mr Rubin was fishing in Alaska but remained in
constant touch with the other key players on a specially equipped mobile

The permanent members include the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Dr
Alan Greenspan, and the heads of the Securities and Exchange Commission
( SEC ) and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

Decisions are made in conjunction with the National Economic Council at the
White House, and the powerful Governor of the New York Federal Reserve

They have each other's telephone numbers at all times and are plugged into a
sophisticated "market surveillance" system that helps them anticipate trouble.

Each agency has a confidential crisis plan. The team relies on "circuit breakers"
to ensure an orderly fall in the markets, with intermittent halts in trading. It can
extend open lines of credit, inject money into the system and cut interest rates.

There is also speculation that it intervenes directly in the stock market, buying
shares and futures contracts to prop up the indexes.

Some analysts believe this form of market rigging is already going on in the US,
quietly, using a $US40 billion ( $67.7 billion ) slush fund, known as the
Exchange Stabilisation Fund, under the direct control of the Treasury

- The Telegraph, London

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:24 - ID#257148)
I've noticed that I can get packages weighingup to half kilo to the US and Canada in 7 days and less. Got something to Teddo in 5! The mail seems to take longer heading OUT of merka.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:35 - ID#93241)
Here you are: Thomas Register of American Manufacturers

Hope this helps. Later, I gotta go earn my keep...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 06:50 - ID#237264)

I appreciate your quest to put gold into the hands of the average person, but my inclination is that the powers in control already have the major amount of gold available in their hands--this to our continued detriment and to the continuation of their control over the economic well being.

The same buggers who abuse tolerants dog will be free to abuse all living things if this system is allowed to continue.

The solution I consider is harsh, and possibly will lead to repudiating the Federal Debt, which is really a non government debt, but a Federal Reserve Debt, not an American Debt, that was placed upon us.

It would be human to avoid such debt repudiations as many Americans rely on this quasi government paper, but is this debt instituted by a government elected by the people???

Or is it a debt to a government that supports those powers that milk us?

Finally, ( from your previous posts ) I cannot comprehend why citizens of the Colorado Plains faced by difficult times would come up to Leadville to hassel your community. I think that they will remain on the high plains and solve their own problems.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 07:29 - ID#411440)
@ powmain: re your PPT post: On Thursday, I was watching CNBC
and listening with astonishment as those airhead commentators tut tutted
the intervention of the Hong Kong government in their equities market.
After all the US market is so much more pristine! HAH!

So much that is written or broadcast by the media is pap, and
misinformation. This is not news to anyone here, but one has a
far higher probability of success by taking the advice, and listening
to the opinions of people on the Kitco forum than anything broadcast
or printed in the media. Just do your own due diligence, and take
your chances! At least the opinions of the people on this forum are
honest opinions. There are a few posters who have agendas, but one
gets to know about them. Agendas can be the product of honest opinions

Thank you for your PPT post.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 07:34 - ID#255151)

Good to have you back and posting. Hope you haven't given up on Gold and bought the Dow: ) Would appreciate an update on your thoughts re Gold, South Africa, currencies, etc.

Mr. Mick
(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:03 - ID#345321)
Mozel, do you know where one can buy land that doesn't require
yearly taxes? Please post the info if you know. Thanks

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:04 - ID#427357)
GOLDBUGS....Welcome to Your New Paradigm!

The inimitable "farfel" graciously and generously shares his considerable market insights and knowledge with us. In addition to being a gifted writer, he demonstrates keen analytical vision in seeing what indeed is motivating market action.

"In Wall Street's recent market turmoil, many goldbugs have allowed themselves to be led by the general direction of the oft highly emotional crowd. Unfortunately, in doing so, they are failing to recognize the paradigm shift."

"As part of this paradigm shift, GOLD MUST RISE! Yes, it is very discouraging to see gold fall with the general market. So discouraging that most goldbugs are finally surrendering and dumping their gold some cases, even their physical. Again, this
is because most goldbugs have failed to recognized the new paradigm

"GOLD and SILVER have been set up for short squeezes of monumental proportion. There is simply little to no eligible gold/silver inventories available against the massive demand that is building up."

Mr. "farfel's" full report at URL below. It's necessary to delete extra "en" letters in word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:14 - ID#119358)
@I watch,
with little remaining anxiety, the birth of Gold's triumphant return to its rightful role of controlling currencies. The influential governments of the world undertook a brave experiment to sever it from its timeless role. That being the role of economic and financial discipline.
The brief, albeit exciting, wild party was extremely enjoyable for those close enough to the seat of power....and lucky others. Now the party is over and all in attendance must go back home to work. We have little choice but to return to the former condition, for we can not stay here any longer.

On a more consequential note, my head and testicles have been exposed to grossly damaging temperatures as a result of the Great Heat'o'Rama now underway here in the dusted plain. Spoiling meat heat. It has been 107 every day now for twelve years, and we've had less than a quarter inch o' rain in going on seven years. This sahara has moved into my soul. I am sur de hades.

Ya'll have a grrrrrrrrrreat weekendO! it's way too coooool in here...this kitco. GOLDBUGS GO!!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:16 - ID#432221)
Squirrel, If you're serious about the tiny gold coin thing, I might be able to help you

I'm a Tooling Engineer by trade, got a bunch of toolmaking background, and have a small machine shop here at the house.
I do business with large toolmakers up north and in Austria.
Seems to me here's what ya gotta have, minimum
1. Gold
2. A precise rolling mill to obtain gold sheets of exact thickness.
3.Stamping press and dieset to cut blanks.
4. Stamping press and dieset to hob the coins.
5. Furnace and molds to reclaim the scrap.

There would be alot of other smaller support and quality equipment required.
If the likelyhood exists that several million may be sold, you'd want to automate the process. ( I do that sorta stuff too )
Of coarse, as the role of gold increases in our economy, Uncle Sam will become increasingly obtrusive, I can't imagine him allowing Squirrel to print money, but what the hell, it's worth a shot.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:18 - ID#427357)
Russia Needs A New Currency . . . by Dr. Judy Shelton

Dr. Judy Shelton, an economist - author of "Money Meltdown:
Restoring Order to the Global Currency System" ( Free Press,
1994 ) and "The Coming Soviet Crash" - which predicted the
eventual Communist State's demise ( ( Free Press, 1989 ) . Dr.
Shelton frequently has her wisdom published in the Op. Ed.
section of the Wall Street Journal. She is a staunch advocate of a
new stable international monetary order where GOLD PLAYS A ROLE.

In short, Dr. Shelton believes like many in Washington D.C. that GOLD
CAN BRING ORDER TO THE WORLD'S MONETARY CHAOS starting with the turmoil surrounding the Russian Ruble.

"The West's once mighty Cold War enemy is now caught in the agonizing
throes of a meltdown that has become all too familiar on the global financial scene. Currency devaluation, a forced "restructuring" of domestic debt, a moratorium on repaying foreign obligations--it all spells economic disaster. That it should happen to Russia, a nation attempting to convert from a command economy to a free market system, is particularly tragic."

"Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan made the observation earlier this year that the 1994 Mexican peso devaluation was the first crisis of the new high-tech global economy. The 1997 meltdown of Southeast Asian currencies initiated the second crisis. Mr. Greenspan predicted with stark candor that there would be a third. Why? Because the fundamental problem of fiat currencies, whose supply is determined by the fallible judgments of central bankers, has not been resolved."

Dr. Shelton's full report at URL below. It's necessary to delete extra "en" letters in word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:25 - ID#93241)
"Spoiling meat heat"? How's your neighbor's cows? Are they cooked yet. Or is it the locoweed. Yes, good news gold...good gold news. The smiles are returning here...for now. Is that why you're smiling...or you been hangin' out with the neighbor's cows?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 08:37 - ID#119358)
We are now able to eat meat on the hoof and on the fly. Normally we spray the pigs and cows generously with barbeque sauce, I like Kraft Kansas City, and then just dig in. Common practice is to leave the animal after it falls so that other species can have their little fiest. Saves gas and electricity. Fast food from a slow cow.

We , excuse me , er, they lost the lOcOweed crOp. Naw.....the heat didn't get it. The assistant, spare sheriff got it and run off. All hell will break looose now. The loco-less real sheriff reports to all the heads on the city council. He's next week's BBQ.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:06 - ID#215235)
At least I think you will agree with my wish to see gold at $600/oz. As per the PSU v. OSU game, we'll see October 3rd.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:12 - ID#93241)
You're supposed to buy gold, not grow it. No wonder it's so hot where you are.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:15 - ID#317211)
It seems the "Working Group on Financial Markets" had it all goin' on

yesterday. Rubin, AG & Japanese finance minister in SanFran all at once.

Also was watching, with much suspicion, the 11th hour jump on DJIA

Friday pm whilst everyone trying to get away for the 3 day weekend.

Wrote it of to institutional buying signal when 7500 was breached, but

one of the institutions was possibly the "Exchange Stabilization Fund"?

Anyone here know how to track this funds'activities? How many$US would

it take to create 140 point market turn in 45 minutes? Does this fund

automatically replenish to $40 billion, or does it need to sell what

it bought Friday. ( Hypothetically-that is ) ( not )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:21 - ID#248180)
Mozel - Rumor that much gold was on that flight as well. hmmmmmm

Friday September 4, 8:16 am Eastern Time
Saudi prince aboard doomed Swissair plane - paper
DUBAI, Sept 4 ( Reuters ) - A Saudi Arabian prince was among those killed when a Swissair plane crashed into the sea off Canada, a Saudi newspaper reported on Friday.
The English-language Saudi Gazette quoted a Swissair source confirming that Prince Bandar Bin Saud Bin Saad Abdul Rahman Al-Saud was among the 229 passengers and crew killed when the MD-11 plane plunged into the Atlantic near Nova Scotia on Wednesday.

Prince Bandar, 45, a former Saudi air force pilot, was on his way to visit his father who was receiving treatment in Switzerland, the newspaper said.

``Prince Miteb Bin Saud said his brother was among the passengers aboard the ill-fated jetliner. But he added that it was not known yet whether his body had been recovered,'' the newspaper said.

A spokesman for Swissair said on Thursday that a Saudi Arabian national had been among the 215 passengers on board flight 111 which crashed while on its way from New York to Geneva. He did not name any of the passengers.

Swissair says there are almost certainly no survivors.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:29 - ID#28994)

One point on the DOW is approximately 1 billion dollars.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:46 - ID#29048)
401k support for the market
From Barron's:

About $1.94 billion drained out of stock funds last week, according to AMG Data Services ( on top of $2.22 billion the week before -- their first back-to-back outflows this year ) . This compared with a $5.31 billion inflow for equity funds in the corresponding week last year. Money funds last week took in $13.16 billion in new money. Some observers say the real key to mutual-fund flows will be what investors will do with their 401 ( k ) and other retirement funds. If they get so nervous they start transferring nest eggs into short-term money accounts, the market is headed for real trouble. But Robert Adler, president of AMG Data Services, says that, so far, the signs are that 401 ( k ) investors -- at least the ones with automatic monthly-investment plans- haven't panicked.

One interesting sign...CIGNA has now posted a message on both their web site and on their phone answering system seeking to deter 401 ( k ) fund transfers. CIGNA handles several billions of dollars in retirement money.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 09:46 - ID#317211)
skinny - gracias. $40 billion like a f*rt in the wind.
How do I stop a post

from double spacing?

Doesn't show up on the preview.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:01 - ID#427357)
"SHORT TERM NOISE." Whaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Her Grace Abby Cohen haltingly professed yesterday that " she believes that the recent turmoil on stock markets has been "short term noise". Asked for a figure for the Dow Jones at the end of 1998, she said Goldman Sachs continued to use a figure of 9300 for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, a figure it has used since the beginning of the year.

Heretofore Guru Abby's braying reminds me of her hapless 1929 counter-part, the illustrious mega-bull of the ROARING 20s, Dr. Irving Fisher, who stuck his foot into his mouth when he blurted:

"Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau. I do not feel there will be soon if ever a 50 or 60 point break from present levels, such as ( bears ) have predicted. I expect to see the stock market a good deal higher within a few months."

- Irving Fisher, Ph.D. in economics in Autumn, 1929

Sure Abby, a 9300 DOW and GOLD at $1,500/oz by Christmas..
HEY, who knows?!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:01 - ID#317211)
Speed - Don't know about other 401k's
but mine sends out quarterly reports a full 2 months after quarter end,
so I won't get a hard copy of current activity until Nov/Dec.

Methinks some bull market boomers may wait til then, while some are even
now practicing their phone dial up "account elections & realignments".
Probably never tried to use it before now. Their ignorance should not be
confused with lack of panic. Wifey told me it was the main chatter at
the hairdressers Friday.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:07 - ID#317211)
vronsky - that short term noise you here may be Abby Cohen

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:11 - ID#317211)
Where the heck is BLOOPER?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:14 - ID#273432)
Gold envelope chart updated
Looks like we are near a short-term top, but overall trend has bottomed.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:17 - ID#384350)
A few Comments
When planes go down like the Air Swiss crash, I am usually suspicious to know who was on the plane. A Saudi Prince, a key AIDS researcher, and who knows who else. About a year ago a plane went down in Asia. I believe the head of the Taiwanese central bank was on that one.

As to Poland's Gold purchase, remember they are slated to join the European Union so Gold purchases by them are not unexpected.

Many of us know that Gold/Silver shorts would/will have an extremely difficult time covering in face of shrinking supply. I expect the futures markets to try and allow payment in fiat instead of making physical Gold/Silver delivery.

The Hatt
(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:28 - ID#294232)
ABX will close out their entire hedging program!
A very reliable source has told me that American Barrick are within days of making a decision to unwind their entire hedging program.. The result of this would be a gain of ONE BILLION DOLLARS! Needless to say they believe that Gold is moving much higher from here and if they are right it would create a win win situation. There is little doubt that this would trigger a round of hedge covering by other seniors and more importantly a short squeeze like we have all dreamed of! I REPEAT THIS RELIABLE SOURCE HAS TOLD ME THE PROPOSAL IS AS WE SPEAK ON THE TABLE!!!
It appears to me that the World is beginning to see that the WAR ON GOLD has gone too far! Over the last couple of days I have heard more and more discussion on the idea that the manipulated gold price is responsible for the crisis we now face.. The fear of deflation is real and from his statements in the past AG understands the importance of gold to the currency arena! It is rather ironic that Russia has now began talking about a gold backed currency and this may just be the start..
Like others on Kitco I have to admit that i am being cautious in my thoughts about the new gold bull as we have seen this type of price action in the past.. I have been 100% invested in gold for over a year now and it has been the most consuming stress i have ever felt. Not that i doubted where gold was going it was the manipulation that most concerned me. Right or wrong it appears to me that the manipulaters are about to see the monster they have created around the world and will be forced to take an about face turn on their views on gold!
The shorts must be feeling rather ill this weekend as they wait for another shoe to drop! They were between a rock and a hard place on Friday as the market was thin and covering would of caused much pain. A rally in gold on Monday and Tuesday in London and Asia could bring gold back on the market $10.00-$15.00 higher than it left. This alone could be the birth of a history making short Squeeze! Lets all hope!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:33 - ID#228128)
Plunge Protection Team
There has been a lot of discussion here about the PPT. Can someone explain to us all the mechanics of how the PPT is supposed to control or steer the markets. For example, does the Fed provide loans to banks and in turn brokerage houses with the under the table understanding that they are to use the money to buy futures, or some other instrument to prop up the market? If so, are these buyers required to eat the losses. Most any long purchases over the past few weeks are under water. It just doesn't compute for me that they have participants willing to take huge losses in order to "do the right thing". If the PPT could do anything directly it would be to support the dollar which in turn would increase our market's attractiveness to overseas investors. They don't seem to be doing that as the dollar has weakened considerably. I am skeptical that the PPT is out there tinkering with the markets as they are in Hong Kong but I'm willing to have an open mind. Can someone please prove me wrong?

The Hatt
(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:36 - ID#294232)
Abbey has painted herself in a corner and she cannot get out!
The fact that she remains bullish does not surprise me as she has no choice but to stick to her guns and burn with the rest of the paper on the Dow. Can you imagine if she pulled a Ralph and suddenly changed hats!
Her reputation must ride with the market and she will burn before she allows herself to cause a 600-1000 point drop with a change of camps!
Abbey to put it in lamen terms you are FU@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:36 - ID#343259)
the Hatt
Just bought ABX friday, I had made a note wednesday eve to 'buy abx' for thurssday am but got too busy, was at $14, paid $16.50 friday. Had some earlier in the year and sold out mid-April. They should close out, as should PDG and others, aside from good business sense it would send THE definitive message to the market re: gold. No doubt tax considerations play a big part in the decision, as well as collective corporate hand-wringing.
Lest just hope the Australians and SAfricans don't come in next week and sell forward.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:38 - ID#384350)
Mr Mick, Land without annual taxes
...exist in Ireland. There is also no fee for water. This could very well change in the future. Also, parts of Ireland didn't get electricity until roughly 25 years ago. So today many not so modern houses heat the water, house, stove by burning turf, which may be attractive in light of Y2K. House prices have exploded in the past 5 years especially in the cities, however, rural cottages with a bit of land can be had for less than $100K. Derelict cottages with a bit of land can be had for under $30K.

Also, there is currently an investment scheme where the govt pays you 80/yr. to let them plant trees on your acreage.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:40 - ID#240288)
Colonel Hackworth Scathing Toward US Missile Strikes

Calls US government and military establishment professional liars.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:41 - ID#215235)
Like you, I have held steady the course over the past year believing that gold and mining shares would turn around. The past two weeks have been both gut-wrenching and euphoric. Had I been more astute, I would have loaded up on TVX when it bottomed at 1 1/16. But I was keeping my powder dry. Your reliable source information re: ABX comes at a good time. I may begin to get a good night of sleep if ABX buys back its hedge positions and other mining companies follow suit. Your comments lead me to believe that if there is a dip on tuesday, it will be a good time to buy ABX and other undervalued shares. Thanks for the information. Let us now designate the Labor Day weekend as Gold Turnaround. Amen, brother. Got Gold?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:46 - ID#288295)
Dutchman, The Hatt

If I were going to cover my hedges as you say Barrick may, I would be in the market on Tuesday selling big time to get all the specs behind me....and then.....el stingo!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:52 - ID#290172)
How the Round-eyed magician revalues a currency,

Right before the world's credulous eyes!

On Friday, August 7, 1998
1 Gold ( oz. ) = 41,578.4 Yen:41,578.4 ( 0.00002405 Gold oz ) 8/7/98
1 JAPANESE YEN ( JPY ) = 0.00002405 GOLD ( OZ. ) ( XAU )

On Friday, August 7, 1998
1 US Dollar = 145.430 Japanese Yen:145.430 Japanese yen to USD
1 Japanese Yen ( JPY ) = 0.006876 US Dollar ( USD )

On Tuesday, January 14, 1997
1 Gold ( oz. ) = 41,587.9 Japanese Yen: 41,587.9 ( 0.00002405 Gold oz ) 1/14/97
1 JAPANESE YEN ( JPY ) = 0.00002405 GOLD ( OZ. ) ( XAU )
Median price was 41587.9 / 41666.6 ( bid/ask ) .
Estimated price based on daily US dollar rates

On Tuesday, January 14, 1997
1 US Dollar = 116.460 Japanese Yen: 116.400 Japanese yen to USD
1 Japanese Yen ( JPY ) = 0.008587 US Dollar ( USD )

1 JAPANESE YEN ( JPY ) = 0.00002405 GOLD ( OZ. ) ( XAU ) and EITHER

145.430 Japanese yen to USD


116.400 Japanese yen to USD


The Hatt
(Sat Sep 05 1998 10:55 - ID#294232)
Silverbaron/ Just take a look at the short position on ABX!
Huge volumes this week and I am sure the shorts were out in full force! You have to know that many are trapped as we speak and a sharp rise would make all ABX longs very happy!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:01 - ID#300202)
Thanks-The Hatt-Was gettin' close to liquidation like someone else who
stated publicly here the other day. Have been 100% for 2 yrs. New life
in me now. Thanks to all Quality Posters. You have assisted my hanging in
versus my otherwise demise. Wud like to buy u all a Moosehead someday.


Voyeur Professor
(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:02 - ID#231101)
The Hatt

I, too, would like to thank The Hatt for his memo on ABX, inasmuch as I hold shares in the company. If they were to abandon their hedge policy, it would indeed prove bullish were other companies to follow. I also agree that gold has been manipulated, and I am not fond of conspiracy theories. I warn my students against the demon argumentum ad populum a flawed assumption rooted in mass paranoia. But ( and I am becoming tiresome in my repeating this datum ) when voices like Steve Forbes and Richard Malpess ( Wall Street Journal 9/2/98 op ed ) agree that gold has been a victim of U.S. dollar policy, then one can justifiably believe that gold is manipulated! Both argued that the Fed must cut rates to allow gold to rise. Isnt that manipulation? Ironically, global deflation, which has ruined gold prices for the past year, will prove the catalyst for a gold-manipulated bull.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:05 - ID#384350)
IDT, the following link has a lot of info & links to PPT

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:06 - ID#28767)
Is there usually a month lag time between the actual purchase and the date it gets reported? As in the example below?

On Friday, September 4, 1998, Lawrence T. Kurlander, Vice President of Newmont Mining Corp. ( NEM ) , announced a PURCHASE on August 5 of 3,000 shares at a price of 18.94 per share, bringing his total holdings to 12,376 shares.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:10 - ID#242325)
LGB: Agree that stocks probably will rally next week. Looks like we made a short-term bottom late Friday afternoon. Probably nothing spectacular, but something like a 300-400 point Dow rally looks to be in the cards.

Charles Keating; Glad you enjoyed the Jude Wanniski post. If Jack Kemp had been elected President, gold probably would be around $350 today.

BTW, oil continues to be the big winner after gold. XAU up 10% Friday; OSX ( oil service index ) up 6%. These two most beaten up sectors outperforming everything. How times change! Where gold leads oil will follow.

Traders should not count on an immediate drop in the dollar if the Fed cuts rates. The market seems to have already discounted such a reduction. Looks like they have bought on the rumor and will sell on the news. This could trigger some retracement of the recent gold rally. But dollar headed much lower and gold much higher longer-term.

Mr. Mick
(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:19 - ID#345321)
Gianni - will Ireland let me keep my Constitution?
I trow not. Thanks, but I'm staying in the US.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:23 - ID#257312)
Remember The North Korean Ballistic Missile?

Well guess what. It turns out it was a
satellite. It is now broadcasting songs glorifying Kim Il Sung. HAHAHA! This is sounding more like bad farce all the time. The US in the last few months has 1 ) Missed the Indian nuclear tests 2 ) Given away some of our top military technology to China 3 ) Blew up a medicine factory in Sudan 4 ) Sabotaged a UN weapons inspection team from doing its job in Iraq and 5 ) F*d up with this N Korean missile thing. This disgraceful performance can be summarized as the Keystone Cops meets the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:24 - ID#232390)
GRANT 08:16 post;
You want to look into a "forging press" for impressions but for blanks you'll want to buy from a professional ( why re-invent the wheel? ) In the US I can recommend Stern Leach, up in Mass. I believe they still make blanks for the US eagle ~ and their x-parent company, General Findings ( Leach & Garner, Mass. ) has some metallurgical propriaraties that allow them to work in near 24K. You'd want to have this near-24K material, from GF, blanked out, to rather exacting weights, by those boys over at Sternb who have worked out blank tolerances to within workable, and profitable, accuracies.
Then you'll want to "forge" coin. You'll need die's made of course, but as an engineer you'll know which steel can be cut, polished and then hardened enough to take the stress of forge range pressures.
You might want to get cozy with the comptroller of your state, province, county or hamlet in order to enlist their support in your "commemorative" efforts in the marketplace.
Wherever you are, in any country, you can find the fella's who are working the blanks. You can always import the GF near-24K material and have the die work done locally.

Good Luck

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:27 - ID#384350)
appears to be in an ABC correction. I anticipate rallying early next week as the Wave C gets under way trying to reach 8000, from where we could likely see the Dow crash. Either way, a clear break below Sep 1 low ( roughly 7400 ) should spell doom.

Also Joe Public isn't going to panic. He is in it for the long haul. He will watch this market collapse all the way down, and when it's his turn to sell because his assets are shrinking faster than his debt he will be forced to sell at whatever price the market offers. This is a game of musical chairs. There is no way for the masses to exit the market, they are locked in at the top.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:29 - ID#427357)

Based on historical precedent Grizzly Bear Droke forecasts a bad week for
Abby Cohen & Cohorts.

The bear market has unfolded almost exactly to our parameters over the past couple of weeks. We are now fully convinced-from a technical perspective-that the trend is indeed bearish with the bull all but dead. Any upward momentum from this point forward should be construed only as a temporary rally, or bear market "correction."

Moreover, we are aware of the high potential for a market crash-or at least a severe drop of the stock market-during the week of September 7.

From an Elliott Wave perspective, wave five down has still not been
completed-when it begins, we should see prices carried down to around DJ 7000, perhaps even to our Gann support level of DJ 6975 identified by Robert Krausz in our last week's commentary.

Droke's full report at URL below. It's necessary to delete extra "en" letters in word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet:

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:42 - ID#230244)
The HYATT great posting on ABX THANK YOU.
For an easier way of investing in GOLD, convertible here are a few great deals now on sale.ABX under TRIZEC HAHN-CV U$3%29JA21 is presently at 66.00$ well below its high of us95.00.You can sleep at night and collect interest.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:51 - ID#147201)
grant re your 8:16
With the position you are in, you could be an integral part of this small coin. How about emailing me and Squirrel at the following- and Thank you for your interest., Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:53 - ID#413273)
Goodmorning All...the week that was according to yours truly and a little more

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:56 - ID#26350)
Would you be buying gold stock Tuesday, or wait for Au to drop a bit?
My broker is recommending EuroNevada. I called their office last week, got answering machines and ordered annual reports. It is not a company I have been following closely, however I know they are cash rich. Alos Newmont ( which I do like ) has gone up a lot the last few days, would it still be a buy at these levels? Perhaps Soros is driving the price up if he is taking a big bite out of it. I notice Durban Deep is again over $2 a share and that Blanchard is putting out a special bulletin on it next week. The next eclipse ( moon this time again in Aquarius isn't it? ) of this fall's threesome is Sunday 9/6/1998. So this rise in the price of gold and precious metals is due to manipulation by govt, not so much
a change in the supply/demand or commodity based pricing? Regards.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 11:59 - ID#147201)
strat re Thomae Reg
We are working with the Royal Canadian Mint. I have to agree the Register is a helluva source. Have used it for about 15 years. Thanx, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:03 - ID#153110)
@Mr Mick
A freeman can take and hold land unbeholden in the land of the free.
Land is titled in America according to either an "interest in fee" or a "possessory interest". Fee is a feudal term. Feudal law is all about obligations.

Do you still pledge allegiance ?
Do you still personally elect to participate in Social Security by admitting to having a number when one is demanded of you ?
More, later.

The Hatt
(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:12 - ID#294232)
Lakshmi/ Yes the Government Will manipulate the pog!
However i am convinced that they will end up on the opposite side this time as there fear of Deflation becomes real! AG eluded to it in his speech on Friday and if AG is worried you can expect that he will do whatever he can to boost the pog. So suddenly Gold has taken its rightful place in the monetary scheme of things and will act as a means of fighting off deflation.. There is something going on behind the scenes and the smart money started to move into gold stocks a week ago. If you noticed the press have not been talking gold this week eventhough its performance was outstanding.. This tells me the inside money is not yet positioned for what i think will be a repeat of the great gold bull of the eighties! Watch for Japan to step into the Gold market as soon as sunday night. They have been warning yen shorters of the inherant risk for the past two weeks! A publicly announced move into gold would have a devastating effect on the USD and the DOW! This move will be the start of a worldwide currency war which will only add to Golds Momentum! Our time may be drawing near and our payback will be earned! Many will call us lucky but they will have no idea on just how much willpower it took to follow our convictions..... Gold will save the world economy!!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:12 - ID#153110)
@Mr Mick
I see scanning back that you consider yourself party to some Constitution. You cannot hold land unbeholden. You and yours are pledged to the debt of USG.

Hold up your right hand and say after me "I solemnly swear under penalty of perjury to screw myself and my posterity according to the instructions found in Acts of Congress whatever those may be."

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:17 - ID#147201)
mozel re your 23:17 on 9/4
Your recommendations of survival components are serious. Could you post the best gold coin to have in the event of the breakdown of Y2K? Thank you for this help, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:18 - ID#373403)
Chicago Tribune article featuring me as a market bear!,1051,ART-14222,00.html

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:25 - ID#347235)
David Hackworth is an expert on Liars and Lying, most of his former commanders and soldiers UNFORTUNATE enough to have served under him know him as a totally self absorbed ,glory seeking SOB who would not recognize the truth if it bit him on the arse. Having said that I do agree that in order to be a politician you must be even worse than He was. Shalom to you and yours

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:28 - ID#280214)
Grant - thank you for your advice on the 10-grain coin
Screw the USG - we are not minting "currency" but "money" yes and maybe since most anything can be used as "money" for trade - be it beaver pelts, salt, wheat, or 22 ammo.
Please refer back to my post of Wed Sep 02 1998 09:21
where I say, among other things,
"Since we have no currency denominations we are selling merely little round disks of Gold with a fancy design and cute motto. If folks use these coins in private trade among themselves for a side of beef, a gallon of milk, a dozen eggs or repairs to the roof - so be it."

P.S.I've brought your post to the attention of the others
just to be sure they don't miss it -
since it is so important to us. Thank You.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:30 - ID#413273)
Retired Soldier.....Shame on you


(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:32 - ID#373403)
I only partially agree with your last comment. I do believe that the government will now push gold higher but not because gold is money or will save the economy.

Gold was only pushed lower as "proof" that there was no inflation. Now it will be pushed higher as "proof" that we are not experiencing deflation. It is one of the easier economic indicators to manipulate in the CONfidence game.

Why else would Rubin/Greenspan change course so suddenly to weaken the dollar and lower interest rates? Deflation is here.

The global economy is suffering from a state of overproduction and oversupply of investment money. Deflation is both the symptom and cure for this.

Economic activity cannot be spurred once the process of deliquification starts and people start worrying for the future. Evidence Japan.

Read Greenspans speech from yesterday. It is a real eye opener.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:36 - ID#347235)
Wise choice to go from 308 to 30/06, if you can handle a bit more recoils you may consider 375 H&H.

Dont remember who it was who posted about Prince Bandar, I met him at Ft. Leavenworth whilte has was attending CGSC, I taught a subject there. He was a truely nice and humble man to have been so wealthy, if he had obtained the throne unlikely as that was he would have done a lot of good.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:36 - ID#431200)
Teck joins buyback team
Last Updated: Saturday 5 September 1998

Teck joins buyback team

The Vancouver Sun

Sun News Services

With their stock prices sagging, four big companies, including Vancouver-based miner Teck Corp., announced Friday they intend to buy back their stock in a bid to boost share price.

The moves by Teck, Cominco Ltd., steelmaker Dofasco Inc. and broadcaster CHUM Ltd. come a day after CIBC, Canada's second-biggest bank, said it would buy back up to 20 million shares -- or just under five per cent of its stock -- to bolster its share price.

When stock markets are weak, companies often buy back shares they consider undervalued.

Buybacks reduce the supply of shares on the market and usually lead to a price increase as investors trade fewer shares. As well, a share buyback improves key financial ratios such as earnings per share, widely used to determine the attractiveness of a company's stock.

Teck, the zinc and copper producer, intends to buy back two million Class B shares, two per cent of the total.

"The recent market prices of Teck's Class B shares do not adequately reflect the value of the company's assets and future prospects, and I believe that a share buyback at these prices will provide enhanced value for Teck's shareholders," company president Norman Keevil said in a release.

The buyback will take place for up to one year after receiving regulatory approval.

Keevil said the number of Class B shares to be purchased and the timing of any such purchases will be determined by Teck based on prevailing market conditions. Cominco, which is controlled by Teck, said it intends to purchase up to two million of its outstanding common shares, representing about 2.3 per cent of its outstanding common shares or 3.7 per cent of the public float.

Cominco also said the current market prices of its common shares do not reflect the underlying value of the company.

"Cominco and Teck are doing what a lot of companies are doing," said Odlum Brown Ltd. president and chief executive officer Tony Hepburn.

"With the Canadian market retreating to such a low level they view their own shares as being cheap. It's a positive for shareholders of both companies."

Cominco jumped $1.25 Friday in Toronto to close at $17.25 on volume of 232,000 shares. Teck also moved up strongly, gaining $2 to close at $13 as 354,000 shares changed hands.

Toronto-based broadcaster CHUM said it will buy back more than 800,000 common and Class B non-voting shares and Hamilton-based Dofasco, Canada's second-biggest steelmaker, said it will repurchase up to 4.3 million shares, five per cent of its stock.

CIBC's shares have been battered for weeks after the bank said in early August its third-quarter profits would fall far short of analysts' expectations.

Recently, MacMillan Bloedel Ltd., hit hard by weak commodities markets, said it would buy back more than 11 million shares, about 10 per cent of its stock.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:38 - ID#153110)
For Americans, golden eagles. For the reasons stated on the moneychanger site. The Austrian Philharmonic, being legal tender in Austria, has similar status.

The little coin project is interesting. The biggest problem I see is being able to stamp the small print. I would duplicate the golden eagle alloy for the hardness advantages. If the coin simply states the amount of gold content, it seems to me it is not claiming legally to be "money". The power to coin "money" is what USG jealously guards.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:38 - ID#431200)

By Denise Buffa and Andy Geller Flight 111 made one oval circle of the coast and was making a second when it suddenly descended into hell. The pilots of the doomed Swissair jet may have wasted valuable time by circling Nova Scotia's rocky coast twice to drop fuel and reduce altitude.

Flight 111 made one oval circle off the coast and was making a second when it suddenly descended into hell, plunging into the Atlantic five miles from picturesque Peggy's Cove, cockpit conversations reveal.

All 229 on board were killed, including 132 Americans.

The pilots were circling to dump fuel and drop from an altitude of 33,000 feet so they could land at Halifax airport, said Vic Gerden, lead investigator for the Canadian Transportation Safety Board.

They were at 33,000 feet ... so to go from there to the level of the airport takes quite a long time, Gerden told a news conference in Peggy's Cove yesterday.

The fuel condition was such that it would be very risky to attempt a landing with that amount of fuel and length of runway, he said.

But Aaron Gellman, director of the transportation center at Northwestern University, said the maneuvering was not absolutely necessary.

The plane could have landed despite the fuel and the circling ate up valuable time, he said.

Planes land with a lot of fuel. It's not an uncommon occurrence. It's not vital to unload the fuel, Gellman said.

In other developments:

Experts offered two theories for the crash: A fire on board knocked out power to the three-engine jet - the FAA once found a wiring problem on the plane - or the pilots were overcome by smoke in the cockpit.

The first relatives of passengers arrived in Nova Scotia to begin the grim task of identifying their loved ones. One man carried two teddy bears.

Gergen gave the first peak at the pilots final conversations with air traffic controllers before Wednesday night's crash. A full transcript will be released today.

The conversations reveal that the descent into hell began at 9:14 p.m. when pilots Urs Zimmermann and Stephen Loew radioed air traffic controllers in Moncton, N.B., that smoke was in the cockpit.

Pan, Pan, Pan, they shouted, meaning that they were in the first stage of an emergency.

At that point, the plane was 58 miles southwest of Halifax airport.

The pilots indicated they wanted to go to Boston, but the Canadian air traffic controllers told them Halifax was much closer.

The pilots opted to go to Halifax.

They only made one turn and they elected to go to Halifax, Gergen said.

Thirteen or 14 minutes later, the plane crashed into the choppy Atlantic seas, hitting the water with a thunderous roar that shook the pastel homes of the 200-year-old fishing village.

The plane, which disappeared from radar screens at 8,000 feet, was 32 or 33 miles from the airport.

The plane hit the water at a very high speed, breaking it and the passengers into small pieces, a Swissair spokesman said.

The condition of the bodies is such that the biggest body part is the size of a baby, he said

Gerden said the pilots never sounded the ultimate distress call - Mayday, Mayday, Mayday.

But after issuing their first emergency warning, they said the situation had gotten worse.

The conversations don't reveal smoke in the passenger cabin.

Nor does it appear that a major fire broke out.

There is no indication of fire on any of the objects recovered, Gerden said.

The air crash investigator said there was no squabbling between controllers and the pilots.

Conversations were professional at all times, he said. It sounded like they ( the pilots ) were dealing with the situation in a very professional way.

The conversations were revealed as the first relatives began arriving in Peggy's Cove.

A large tent was set up on the bluff holding the town's distinctive lighthouse so mourners could view in private the waters where their loved ones died

Three Swissair planes - two from New York and one from Zurich - arrived in Halifax, carrying more 200 relatives.

Many of the relatives wore black. One couple hugged each other. Another woman clutched her chest while a companion held her arm.

Before the second New York flight left, a florist arrived with a huge wicker basket of mixed flowers including red roses, babies breath and red carnations.

The card read simply, Deepest sympathy, TWA Flight 800 family members to the families of Flight 111.

A family of six were the first relatives to arrive in Peggy's Cove.

Canadian soldiers walked along both sides of the gray van carrying the six. The van was escorted to the bluff overlooking the water by police cruisers. The family did not speak to reporters.

Other relatives came later. One was a man carrying two rust and white Teddy Bears. He spoke with grief counselors in the tent and left - still carrying the Teddy Bears.

Later two men and a woman - members of the family of Saudi Prince Bandar - arrived in the Lincoln Town Car used by the province's lieutenant governor.

Officials are mapping the ocean floor in preparation for sending down a remote-controlled submersible to check out the sea bed.

A navy submarine equipped with high-tech sonar was unable to trace Flight 111's two flight data recorders, which could contain valuable clues about the crash.

Finding the devices may take time because a beacon that sends a tracking signal to guide searchers to them is not working in the water.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:38 - ID#347235)
I only call it as I see it. THanks and Shalom.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:47 - ID#431200)
More Japanese Appear to Favor Bold Economic Overhaul
More Japanese Appear to Favor Bold Economic Overhaul
By Sandra SugawaraWashington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, September 5, 1998; Page G01
TOKYOSitting in a tiny neighborhood bar, carpenter Shozo Ozawa gestured to a nearby television, where moments before legislators had been debating Japan's banking crisis. Politicians from the ruling Liberal Democratic Party defended a plan to support struggling banks, a plan that would save weak construction companies and thousands of construction jobs.
But if the LDP is expecting gratitude from the 59-year-old, white-haired carpenter, it had better think again. "Why should our taxes be used to save banks that accumulated massive debts and made big mistakes," said Ozawa. "Do you know that right now banks are still giving loans to major companies without knowing if they will get repaid."
Herein lies the grave dilemma facing the Japanese government. For years, Japan has protected its financial system, the nation's jobs and many uncompetitive industries through a network of regulations, cartels and an intricate web of corporate and government relationships. But even many who benefited mightily from the old system believe it is now the root of Japan's economic problems and must be dismantled, despite the social and political pain that will entail.
Japan's financial system -- based more on relationships than balance sheets -- has lost the ability to channel the nation's trillions of dollars in savings into the hands of those who can create growth and wealth. Instead, it continues to pour the nation's money into sinking companies. As a result, some of the biggest legs holding up the entire system -- such as major banks, construction companies and retail stores -- are in danger of collapse. The government is working furiously to hold the system together, struggling to prop up banks, which in turn are expected to support these uncompetitive firms.
Clinton administration officials have urged Japanese leaders to act boldly to revive their economy. U.S. Treasury Secretary Robert E. Rubin was expected to repeat that message in meetings with Japanese Finance Minister Kiichi Miyazawa in San Francisco yesterday. A fierce debate is currently underway in Japan's parliament over how this should be done. The LDP is trying to fight off any radical plans that might trigger a wholesale financial restructuring and further weaken the party's already shaky power base. But the political opposition groups, emboldened by their strong showing in elections this summer, have staked out the debate over banking reform as a key battlefield in their effort to wrest control of the government from the LDP.
Japan's banks are rapidly running low on cash to lend, because so few borrowers have paid back the hundreds of billions of dollars they owe. In addition, the stock market's plunge to a 12-year-low has made matters more critical because banks count stocks as part of their capital.
All major banks say they have adequate capital to deal with their problems. But the LDP and opposition groups alike seem to acknowledge the need for a publicly funded bailout of the banking system. The question is who gets bailed out and who suffers.
The government of Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi seems to be opting to funnel the money back to the traditional power base. It would prop up the top 19 banks, which in turn would be expected to continue loans to major employers -- such as the powerful construction companies that have covered Japan with scores of empty bridges, tunnels and roads.
Likewise Obuchi seems reluctant to boldly deregulate areas such as telecommunications, energy and health care, which would slash the cost of doing business here and trigger growth. "One thing that bothers me is that Japanese officials do not really seem to realize the full extent to which the Japanese system lacks efficiency," said Hiroyuki Yoshino, president of Honda Motor Co., one of the few Japanese companies still showing robust profit growth.
Noting the enormous paperwork required by Japan's many bureaucracies, Yoshino said it takes twice as many Honda salespeople in Japan as in the United States to sell the same number of cars. Yoshino said Japanese authorities must be willing to embrace "fundamental reforms."
Indeed Japanese authorities say they want such changes, yet seem reluctant to act. "The problem is that if they adopt free-market rules, there could be two outcomes," said Robert Zielinski, a Tokyo-based banking analyst for Lehman Brothers Inc. "Maybe you deregulate and Japanese companies become more efficient, and it's suddenly boom town here."But the other outcome is, maybe you deregulate the economy and it just collapses. And I think that's what they fear. The Japanese government fears taking action because they don't know what the outcome will be," said Zielinski.
So instead, the Obuchi government is trying to apply the traditional remedies by merging stronger banks with weaker ones. To try to force the opposition to accept this, the Obuchi government has tried to fan public fears of financial chaos and pain.
Yet increasing numbers of Japanese appear to have greater faith in the marketplace than in the government, at least as reflected in newspaper editorials, talk shows, books and numerous interviews.

As many Japanese see it, they are faced with two choices.

They can accept bold reforms that may trigger more unemployment and bankruptcies, but also may enable Japan to again harness its impressive savings, technology, educated work force and industrial structure and begin growing.

Or they can accept a long, slow decline, with the country's dysfunctional financial system eventually bankrupting their pension plans and leaving them with an economic system incapable of creating new jobs.

"The government-led system has to end," said Sosuke Kajikawa, a 33-year-old marketer at a cosmetics company. "Unemployment may increase, but the government should have measures for handling that problem."

If the existing system is ended, the largest victim could be the construction industry, which has more than 500,000 companies providing 10 percent of the nation's jobs.

Often called Japan's answer to the U.S. military-industrial complex, the construction industry has increased from 5.9 million jobs in 1990 to 6.9 million in 1997. This rapid growth in jobs came despite the bursting of Japan's economic bubble in 1991, which brought a sharp slowdown in private real estate projects.

In a classic back-scratching arrangement, the LDP has provided a bounty of public works jobs for construction companies. In return, the construction industry has contributed money and volunteers to LDP campaigns, as well as jobs for their supporters.

As a key linchpin in Japan's political and economic system, major construction firms have not been allowed to fail. When Tobishima Corp., a large general contractor, began drowning in post-bubble real estate investments gone bad, Fuji Bank led the rescue effort. Last year Fuji Bank had to engineer a second rescue. It and other creditors agreed to forgive $4.5 billion out of $5.2 billion of Tobishima's debts. Tobishima plans to repay the remainder over 20 years.

Tobishima thus owes its life to the old system of mutual support and public works spending. And it thinks the LDP's plan for more public works projects is "a plus," said a spokesman.

But others within the construction industry are having second thoughts.
Sitting in a Japanese restaurant in a former geisha district of Tokyo, lifelong LDP supporter Tatsuhiro Fujieda, 58, said, "Never has business been so bad."
For the past 35 years, Fujieda has run a small construction company, which currently includes his son and four other employees. Over the years he has built up a loyal clientele. One of them came to him earlier this year, asking him to build a factory.
"We did the design work and put together a budget. The customer approved it and took it to his bank to apply for a loan," said Fujieda. He said that the bank suggested that the loan application might go more smoothly if the company used a large construction firm that already owed the bank a lot of money.
"So the customer used that construction company. The bank was just trying to recover its bad loan," said Fujieda. He said banks and the government have "got to stop propping up bad companies" because it is hurting smaller firms that are not heavily in debt.
"It sounds nice to say we should have a soft landing. But I believe that by saying that, we may just be postponing what we have to do," said Fujieda. "Authorities are just trying to keep from doing something, because they don't want to get bloody."
Special correspondent Akiko Kashiwagi contributed to this report.

 Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company


(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:49 - ID#413273)
Retired Soldier.....Comment on this...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:51 - ID#153110)
@Small Coin Project
I would suggest distinguishing by shape. Octagonal, star in circle, rectangular, etc. Increases a lot the burden of proof that anything counterfeit was being attempted. A torch could be embossed to contain the gold content mark.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:54 - ID#147201)
mozel your 12:38
Thank you for your recommendations. As usual, you are very perceptive.The little coin is designed to avoid the USG jealousy. David Madge at the Royal Canadian Mint said "no problem" re stamping a 99995 fine ( London Good Delivery ) gold coin. This coin will be denominated in units of weight and purity only- no units of account. I hope you will follow this and offer your comments. Again, many thanx for your help, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:54 - ID#266105)

Interview on SA gold shares after runup.


Interview with James Dale Davidson


(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:55 - ID#43460)
Goldteck re idle speculation by self professed experts
such as Gellman does nothing but harm. Although such people have the freedom of speech it is appropriate to not repeat their conjectures. Particularly when they are patently offensive and have nothing to do with the POG. ( FYI this in not a 'humble opinion' I am a former military aircraft accident investigation board member and have seen firsthand the negative impact of such speculation on the lives of real people. )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 12:58 - ID#266105)

Interview links didn't work. Interviews at this site:

Click on Business Today then scroll through for
Davidson and Goodwin.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:03 - ID#26350)
Hatt/thanks, I was wondering about the lack of press
Both in the WSJournal and really even the NBReport, as if nothing were happening, perhaps just overshadowed by the Dow falling. I would say more volatility over the next weeks. Also mutual fund managers and brokers will be selling 9/15 and 12/15 through the end of those months to resquare their track records. And we are approaching tax loss selling in general. My friends that jumped into the stock market ( Dow type ) this year are really ticked that they have not beat cash for the year. But it is not innocence, as I have constantly warned them. I go over the fundamentals until they have to think about what money is....but then they bought stock anyway just because everyone else did, including their brokers, etc! As my grandmother used to say: "Lord have mercy! Where fools rush in...angels do fear to go!" I hate to see anyone get hit really, but they did not listen, even to AGreenspan. But I am also holding cash as gold is volatile and in the past I have been whipsawed by mistiming my purchases, or picking up falling shares that fell further. I like Munk--even Horsham. And Newmont, and juniors at these prices if they also have cash in case gold has not bottomed. Off to the library and some reasearch on the companies...probably 3 months old by now, but it is difficult to get these CEO's on the phone....Thanks again. Lakshmi

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:08 - ID#153110)
Keep It Simply Simple. Beautiful detail is not cheap. Just the amount of gold is all that really needs to be certified on the coin. Unless you plan for people to deliver it in London. The ,999X stuff is also just confusing in my opinion.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:13 - ID#147201)
You are absoluely right. The phrase "London Good Delivery" will not appear on the coin. I just put it in to reference purity. Hopefully, we will have a quote this coming week from the Canadian Mint and I have to agree re beautiful detail- I'm holding my breath. Again, thanx and any ideas you care to offer will be greatly appreciated, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:15 - ID#174103)
Gold Vault at the FRB of New York
I have a friend of mine visiting for the weekend who told me that last week she was at the FRB of New York's gold vault, which is nine stories below ground, built on solid bed rock. She was able to get in to see long lines of wire cages with numbers, which went on for at least the length of a football field. The gold bars weigh in at around 27 lbs. Some work folks were moving gold around, and she was able to handle a few ingots. The numbers on the wire cages represent the countries, and those who move the gold from cage to cage do not know ( theoretically ) which number belongs to which country.

I asked her how she managed to get invited, and it turns out she is the grand-daughter of Benjamin Strong, first president of the FRB of NY, who also had the building commissioned ( modeled after the Pitti Palace ) . Her sister was doing some family history work, and got in touch with someone there, who invited them over. She met with the head of the Fed trading desk, and generally got a pretty good tour of the place.

Apparently, the FRB of New York has the most gold in one place of any other repository, and many countries prefer to store their gold there, as it is reputed to be fairly safe. The FRB sotres the gold and moves it around as a service. The US itself maintains a small amount of gold there, the rest being at Ft. Knox.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:17 - ID#174103)
Gold Vault erratum
Sorry for the typos, and make that "great-granddaughter"!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:19 - ID#347235)
I have no argument on his awards, he did do many good and brave things, also many awards are given mainly on RANK and prior reputation for bravery, also many awards are given at the end of combat tours for Battalion and Brigade commanders including Silver Stars and Legions of Merit only to further enchance the careers of persons considered to be "Comers". I know of one Brigade Commander who got a Silver Star for circling the battle 2,000 feet high in his helicopter, the citation read for conspicuous gallantry and superior leadership. Bravo Sierra!! The real leadership and gallantry was on the ground where I was taking photographs of the really brave men with leadership ability, the young LTs on the ground in the grass with the troops. NUF Said?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:19 - ID#286234)
But the beautiful detail is what will make your little coin difficult to counterfeit.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:20 - ID#29048)
Cool site, thanks. It was nice to finally have a solid up week in gold.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:27 - ID#190411)
I am pleased to have a limited acquaintance to someone of notoriety as you. May you be deluged with calls from brokers and financial planners.
I saw your post of last night about Greenspan's speach. You have a way of extracting the main points from the verbiage.
I liked mozel's read on the speach. He was contrite later, as he should be, for demeaning witch-doctors and rain dancers, by comparing central bankers to them.
AG- "maybe this, maybe that, What am I to do?" Perhaps the Fed will use a poll to guide their policy,as the Executive branch does.
I think that this an admission that their percieved control over the economy is a fiction.
They are a force for destruction now, no matter which way they go. Fewer want their debt paper, when they see the real money.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:33 - ID#266105)

Up, yup, nice. 20% is ok...'cept 50% down means 100% back up...

: )

( outta here )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:33 - ID#286234)
Brother O
Massad thinks the sigpro is almost perfect. What do you think?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:37 - ID#411112)
Retired Soldier...Nuff Said I raise the white flag


(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:53 - ID#253246)
@Anyone ***********Cannington SIlver mine down under

I read several times earlier in the year where there is a silver mine
scheduled to produce 22 million oz this year. I'm curious if this mine
came on line or what the status is. I don't remember whether its under
MIM or BHP ownership

(Sat Sep 05 1998 13:58 - ID#412273)
A Vancouver Promoters recent change
A Vancouver promoter has for the past two years tried to sell me various canadian mining shares. On Thursday this changed. This Thursday he was trying to buy my mining shares because he said, "they are two high and I am your friend." He said that he would "take them off my hands." the shars this week rose from 25c ( no bids really ) to 70c and strong bidding. At one point during friday they were asking 90 c to buy!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:07 - ID#427357)

Veteran market maven shares his latest keen vision of Wall Street.

"To crash anew...or wait a few...that seems to be the question.
Is there a bigger picture bullish alternative? Ultimately, you bet?
Not now; not with Japan vacillating and Russia stagnating, with
U.S. profits deterioration in the wings, as Latin American
markets lead Wall Street's remaining strong financial firms deeply
into the red."

"Unlike the permabears, or conventional analysts who have been
bullish since Tuesday ( if not all the way down ) , we have remained
engaged in S&P trading, and feel that catching every tidbit of a 3
or 4 point move is impossible with this kind of volatility;
nevertheless parameters have to be out there for the resolution of
this Battle Royale, as an ensuing move will traverse a great range."

"We're also pleased that at the height of the Russian chaos the
other day, we urged watching the other direction, South of the
Border; particular Brazil. The concern, besides devaluation and
the already-discussed impact of Asia's Contagion on their
economy ( which would impact most of the other Latin markets, to
say the least ) , had to do with loan portfolio losses at NY
moneycenter banks and brokerages, particularly CitiCorp ( CCI ) ,
which we had already identified as topping at the time of the
merger with Traveler's ( TRV ) , last Spring."

For the rest of Inger's profitable and timely tid-bits see full report at URL below. It's necessary to delete extra "en" letters in word "golden" before posting the URL to the Internet:

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:12 - ID#190411)
I wish I knew how to paste together a bunch of URLs so that you could get the info that you seek on goldshares.
The way that I got them, is to go to a decent search engine such as dogpile, and just search the web for the companies sites.
They usually post all of their financials on said sites.
It is really far easier than the library route.
P.S. , If you find something that you are enthusiastic about, let us know. Real Money- gogold

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:14 - ID#190411)
Do you have any familiarity with "Pennygold" software?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:23 - ID#404410)
Comments from this week's BARRON'S
1st one: page MW12 "The time to turn bullish is when 300-400 tons of annual mine capacity is actually forced to close down," says Merrill Lynch. "But that won't happen for quite a time, in our opinion, because mine costs in the Western world are now running at an average of around $230 an ounce."
This came from M.L.'s latest Commodity Market Trends.

( see 2nd comment on next message. )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:29 - ID#404410)
2nd comment from this week's BARRON's
2nd comment:This from page 48 of BARRON'S qouting Robert Prechter in his September issue of "The Elliott Wave Theorist." They are: "Gold, silver and precious-metals stocks remain in the grip of the bear market. Gold has no support until about $180 an ounce. Deflation is the unifying force behind these declines. They all have a lot further to go."

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:35 - ID#190411)
ERLE (Rob) ID#190411:

Hello ERLE,

No, I've never heard of Penny Gold.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:35 - ID#404410)
Sobriety is called for ref. the metals
If you read my previous two messages from BARRON'S, then this ought to keep one sober. I like metals, too, but a lot of work needs to be done yet. Let's try to remain humble, since none of us can forsee the future. Afterall, gold was only up Friday by $1.80. It's not like it went up $10.00. Yes, much more work is needed - backing and filling.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:37 - ID#412273)
Hong Kong Saturday gold trading
Does anyone have the Hong Kong price quote for Saturday?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:42 - ID#39857)
Genetic Download elected head of his own head
Saturday 5 September, 1998 ( 10:58pm AEST )

North Korea's newly convened parliament has re-elected Kim Jong Il as
head of its one-million million-strong military.

The Supreme People's Assembly convened in the capital, Pyongyang,to
elect key government posts for the first time since Kim's father,
longtime President Kim Il Sung, died of heart failure in 1994.

Cage Rattler
(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:43 - ID#33182)
Re: Pennygold
Basically it is fundamental analysis with certain specific criteria on a checklist that must be met - I signed a confidentiality ( sp? ) agreement upon getting it.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:43 - ID#153110)
@Show Me A Chart Of the Continental
Prechter is blind not to see that BIS carries gold at $208. The Italians carry gold at $320. The man is blind drunk on bad data.

Be forewarned. Y2K is going to disrupt the modern world in a timeframe that overlaps the Euro timetable. Are we grown so arrogant that we conceive ourselves as having all the cunning on the planet ? Or is this coincidence actually no coincidence at all ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:46 - ID#373284)

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:46 - ID#412273)
When a bull market starts
High Hopes

In August of 1982 when the dow was at 772 and started its run, it went straight to 1200 with out any "backing and filling." Stocks had been in a bear market from 1968 to 1982 and had had enough "ground work." I hope the same is true in gold. The current gold bear has been around for 18 years, 4 years longer than the Dow enjoyed.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:46 - ID#225369)
The gold bull
seems more likely now that many curriencies are suffering . To become desirable as a currency , some semblance of guarantee is imperative.I do believe the next great war is ongoing and that it will be fought in the markets of the world.The ordinance of choice will not be the U.S. dollar.I believe that gold will be part of the battle,just as oil and wheat and religion will be part of it.Everytime gold makes a move, something steps in front of it.Then,there is some new reason or chart to verify the move.Next time gold moves,maybe this time, it moves because the market wants it to.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:46 - ID#373403)
Greenspan/Rubin Conflict?
It seems that Greenspan is hinting in his speech that the U.S. cannot survive if the rest of the world is collapsing. Therefore we need to lower the dollar so as not to suck the lifeblood from the rest of the world.

Goldman Sachs, er...I mean Rubin seems hell bent on a strong dollar policy.

Is there now some discord between monetary and fiscal policy? A difference in opinion whether the U.S. is an island?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:50 - ID#39857)
oh Magoo youve done it again

Who Cares?
(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:55 - ID#242328)
So. Greenspan says he will cut rates...

Man, I *knew* it.

Here's the equation -

( Total Debt ) X ( Average Interest Rate ) = Konstant

By cutting rates, they'll be able to re-energize the economy again
and stabilize the DOW at its current level. I'm not surprised at all.

I think that the Fed was looking for a destruction of $2T or so,
and now they have it, with the drop in the NYSE.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:56 - ID#190411)
Apart from your dandy handle, I always read what you have to say.
I bought Pennygold and I haven't gotten it set up yet. I have had it for more than six weeks. The extraction software that I have resident on my compuker seems to destroy self-extracting files.
It seems to be a cheap insurance policy for penny stock buyers, and the software will help the 98% that insist on buying tips from newsletter hypesters.
I have nothing intelligent to add, but, if you ever care to contact me, I am at

(Sat Sep 05 1998 14:59 - ID#153110)
@NY Federal Reserve
Its vaults in the granite of Manhattan Island, defended by the the arms of the host sovereign which control the seas and oceans of the globe, the aether above, and the ground in North America. It's a safe of safes.

But, what do you do when your banker withholds your deposit ? Well, what do you do when your employer withholds from your paycheck ?

Has the transfer of gold out of the US been embargoed unofficially by the downing of the Swissair flight from New York to Geneva ? Does not this follow logically from the Seizure of Gold by Nixon when he closed the gold window in 1971 ? Do thee not yet understand that criminal behavior can be legal according to the Law of Nations or of the United Nations or by Act of Congress or Treaty ratified by the Senate ?

This is the end result of a people letting government tell it the law instead of vice versa. But, if you know not what the law is yourself, how can you tell it to government ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:05 - ID#348129)
Run for the Golden Assets..........

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:06 - ID#317193)
F*...keep on posting...
I agree re: multiple personality type person. Just going to avoid contact. Unfortunately, I will never get permission to have a beer.: )

Still, I do like to read his short term calls on gold...not bad so far...see how he does in a rising market. Yes?



(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:08 - ID#153110)
@Howcum when they say "We have you on the right track",
you don't realize you've been railroaded.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:11 - ID#373403)
Bullion vs Equities
It seems like we get a great spike in equities for smaller upward movements in the price of bullion. As a point of fact I purchased Fidelity Select Precious Metals for $10 when gold was at $300. Gold moved to $315 and FDPMX went to $12. Then gold went to $280 and FDPMX went to $6.5. Now with gold at $288 FDPMX is at $7.8.

My question is this. Will there be a saturation point, at higher price levels of gold, where the rise in gold equities will not be so dramatic to the rise in bullion prices?

If gold is at $400 and rises to $420 I would not expect a 20% increase in gold equities like the jump in equities when bullion went from $300 to $315. Yes? If this is accurate then there will be a time to cash out of gold equities and go into bullion.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:13 - ID#287114)

In reality the high $U.S. is sucking the lifeblood out of the U.S.A.. Many countrys have devalued their currency so they may become net exporters, which they have acomplished.
The balance of trade is way out of whack and is not good for American industry.
If Greenspan lowers the rates, it will lower the $U.S and force other currencys up. This will in effect make American made goods once more affordable to the rest of the world.
On the other hand people are already spending like idiots and driving up record personal debts.
Which is the lesser of the two evils?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:15 - ID#266105)

The likelyhood of an airplane sabotage to prevent gold from
exiting the U.S. is on par with criminals being hired by American
intelligence agencies to blow up embassies.

There's kind of a news lull starving the 24-hour globespanning
hungry maw of media needing to fill bandwidth and print space. So
a run-of-the-mill airplane crash along with a baseball statistic
is all-consuming. Look, they got a full year and more out of
a football player.

I'm reminded of the yankee manager's dispute with Don Mattingly
and his haircut consuming front page printspace daily when the
Russian coup so rudely interrupted that story. I still haven't
heard what came of the haircut.

To the beach.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:19 - ID#373284)
2BRO2B?, Namaste' not a football player
a MURDERER...plain and simple...and the media still suks...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:24 - ID#190411)
Donald here at Kitco posts the XAU/POG ratio daily, along with his valuable comments and URLs.
I suggest that you also bookmark for their charts, and vast info at his site.
If you can't find it there, then check the sources that he has there.
Lakshmi, try them also, for they have many mining URL's that will cut shorter your search.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:26 - ID#153110)
@On A Par
"The likelyhood of an airplane sabotage to prevent gold from
exiting the U.S. is on par with criminals being hired by American
intelligence agencies to blow up embassies."

On the scale of liklihood does that place it closer or further away from the likilhood of criminals being hired by intelligence agencies to perform assassinations ?

Just what are the chances the USG would openly tell the world, if you have gold on deposit at the NY Federal Reserve, you can forget ever seeing it again ? Stay in our IMF system or else.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:33 - ID#280214)
Jack, Strat & Sam - on buying Gold before its too late and Mtn Refuges
JACK: We still have time to get Gold into peoples hands - for as long as we can still buy it on the open market. As long as that window is open we should pass as much Gold through it as we can. I have the same rational regarding buying guns and ammo. Almost regardless of the price today, I will still buy - because next year we may not be able to buy at any price - except at outrageous black market prices. That very same rational should apply to food and other supplies. Buy them now before Y2K makes them almost impossible to get
at any reasonable price.

I plan on most folks from the plains staying there. But the city folk of Denver etc. are another breed. Many of them think of the mountains as a refuge and thus they will try to get here - stupid, I know and most will die trying. Mountain winters will not be kind to travelers and the unprepared.

STRAT: thanks for the lead to the Cincinatti mint.
We can use whatever ways we can to make this enterprise viable.

SAM - yes, the detail will make counterfeiting difficult.
But anything with a density similar to Gold will be more valuable than Gold - the exception being tungsten which I doubt anybody would try in a 10-grain stamped detailed coin and uranium and plutonium - not likely!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:34 - ID#153110)
@On A Par II
OK, so just what is the difference between the USG locking you out of you safe deposit box ( Rule 2 ) by regulation of the bank it licenses and its locking other nations out of their safe deposit box at the NY Federal Reserve ? And as to planes that never crashed before suddenly becoming unreliable, didn't these criminal clowns stop using the telegraph office to send messages a long time ago ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:41 - ID#190411)
Of course you are right about the destruction of US manufacturing, especially the metal cutting and forming industries.
The IMF and sundry paper pushers have caused the vast overhang of automotive production, and nearly all other metalworking industries.
We as milkcows of the STATE have had to fund our competitors through the violence enforced tax system. I want to see Chinese tooling, and Moldmaking have to live by the rules of the US domestic manufacturers.
Or eg. Korea: They have a debt to equity ratio on average of 5. I have under .1 . I must bail them out.
It is like the S+L bailout of the past decade. ---- I didn't hire the money, and I don't care to pay the debt of an entity that I haven't the slightest control over.
Spud's right, screw the system.

Bully Beef
(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:48 - ID#260119)
Hi! I'm new here and in this bear market is there any kind of stock
that might go up after the Dow has corrected. For example... has there been any kind ( in particular ) type of stock that has gone up 15 to 40% in the last 2 days? I'm just not used to not getting 30% per annum in my mutual funds and just don't know where to turn? ( Darn that's fun )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:53 - ID#287114)

It baffles me how short some people's memory is of the cold war and communism. It appears to me that China is being looked upon as a free country. I can buy certain products 304 and 316 stainless steel fully manufactured and assembled in China cheaper than the cost of the stainless steel in US dollars. In a communist country, commodity prices mean nothing if they have their own supply. They will manufacture and sell at any price to bring in hard currency. Free trade I agree with. If it is not fair, it should be stopped.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 15:57 - ID#153110)
The true GNP is
.... a nationfull of illiterates that can't wait to go into Military service for the Benefits, can't wait to get a "Driver's" license and can't wait to register for the Franchise to vote, and register with selective service; ALL ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS; WHILE IN THE BACKGROUND ARE A BUNCH OF "NEWLYWEDS" joined by government license. KNOCKING OUT A FRESH CROP AND REGISTERING THEM NOW WITH 1. A BIRTH CERTIFICATE, 2. A SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER, 3. A COWPOX VACCINE LACED FOR ALL THEY KNOW WITH A TRANSPONDER RESPONSER SATELLITE LOCATOR; AND AN APPLICATION FOR WELFARE, FOODSTAMPS, A PLASTIC i.d. CARD, A CHARGE CARD, AND A COUNTY DRINKING CARD. and most important of all A COPY OF THE YELLOW PAGES LISTING LAWYERS AND ATTORNEYS IN YOUR AREA; WITH AN 800 NUMBER FOR THEIR REFERRAL SERVICE .... WHEN ARE WE GOING TO START IN THE HOME ISSUING a God's card ? it comes right out of the bible and of the belief in a supreme being that Loves you. Can't you create your own Public Record of who you are ?

Whatsamatter ? Didn't you have a Mama and Papa that Created You and Named you ? Or, don't you even know who the hell you are anymore without a bureaucrat to tell you to write between the lines and fill out all the spaces ?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:00 - ID#190411)
There are many fun ways to profit from the stockmarket. It's just that they are not mentioned.
I watched CNBC night wrapup just out of curiousity. After an interminably dull spew about the losers, they had a brief section on the winners. They neglected an index that had risen in excess of 30% for the week.
In a few years, after gold stocks have become the big money in the market, that's all they will report on.
IMHO, that will be the time to buy anything but gold.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:03 - ID#147201)
mozel re 1863 gold cerificates
Do you have any info on these gold certificates? I mean their means of convertability and if there are any restrictions. I am trying to do some research on Jay Goulds attempt to "corner" the gold market in 1869. I know why he was doing this, but in all accounts I read, he was using "greenbacks"- as you know this is a US Treasury note without debt connotations. It appears that the gold market was quoted in greenbacks, but I can;'t find why he could not or did not use gold certificates. In an attempt to get this right I emailed the US Treasury for definition and all I got was "tourist" folder with general facts on the currency of the period. I am discounting the myriad of US backed National Bank notes. Many thanx, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:04 - ID#17077)
Greenspan Preparing Americans for Disaster????
Talk about Paradigm Shift....only months ago, Greenspan testified that America was experiencing a "virtuous cycle," the continuation of the Goldilocks economy...not too hot, not too cold.

Now, all of a sudden, he is finally admitting that America cannot remain a paradisiacal island unto itself as global economic devastation whirls around the globe ( See Article Below )

What a confession!! Moreover, the timing is very interesting as it is occuring just before the post-Labor Day week when a virtual consensus of Bearish analysts are calling for market calamity.

Rubin ( who I categorically blame for allowing America to get into this mess ) must be livid! Imagine...Greenspan is NOT willing to maintain the facade of unlimited American prosperity any longer.

The equities and bond markets are in a NO-WIN situation...raise or lower interest rates...either scenario spells disaster. Lowering interest rates augurs inflation and kills both bonds and equities. Raising interest rates explodes both the bonds and equities bubbles.

The only true solution is to reconstruct the global currency structure AFTER market equilibrium is restored at whatever lower level it obtains. It will be necessary to fix the new global currency system against some kind of standard ( gold maybe? ) .

Unfortunately, America has experienced a "false prosperity" this past decade at the expense of many suffering nations. As I have written for over the past year, sadly, it seems that global economic collapse might be the only condition compelling the major Superpowers to sit down together in one room and agree about the future direction of global currencies and markets -- without equivocation or subterfuge or lack of purpose. As you may recall, for the past year, I wrote that as long as America felt it could escape the contagion, then I hypothesized that the country would NEVER take the necessary measures to stem the economic epidemic. So far I have been proven to be correct.

So batten down the hatches...I think we have reached a point where it may be time for technicians to throw out their charts. Future moves in the market may be extremely radical, NASB, and as such, highly unpredictable for chartists that are accustomed to steady, dull, trend-like moves over the past decade.

PHYSICAL gold and silver...soon to be acknowledged as the true flight to safety.

Friday September 4, 7:46 pm Eastern Time

U.S. economy won't escape turmoil

``It is just not credible that the United States can remain an oasis of
prosperity unaffected by a world that is experiencing greatly increased
stress,'' Greenspan said in a speech at the University of California in

Although he did not directly comment on the bank's interest rate policy,
Greenspan said it was a time to be cautious, implying there would be no
change soon in official U.S. interest rates. ``Clearly, the history of
large swings in investor confidence and equity premiums for rational and
other reasons counsels caution in the current context,'' he said.

Greenspan said that in the Spring and early Summer of this year Fed
policymakers were concerned the strong U.S. economy would fuel
inflationary price pressures. But that fear had since abated and the
Federal Open Market Committee saw the risks as balanced between economic
slowdown and inflation.

``By the time of the Committee's August meeting, the risks had become
balanced, and the Committee will need to consider carefully the
potential ramifications of ongoing developments since that meeting,'' he

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:10 - ID#17077) thoughts on gold and the markets for next week?
...Impossible to say.

Just protect yourself.



(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:12 - ID#17077)
@TOM YOUNG...thanks for the kind words...
...very peaceful and reassuring.



(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:17 - ID#45173)
"So when the bust finally runs it's course a few lucky people who were in the right musical chair at the time have all the original money and the others are all busted."

Could it be that the use of gold for cover last week might hint at the location of the right chair? Once the sheeple have figured out the game, by that time the boys have moved to another table. Ah, but which table is it? Hmmmmm.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:18 - ID#17077)
@PETE...thanks for the good words...
...however, it does not bother me to post here on K-2.



(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:20 - ID#190411)
I thank you for your reply.
Out of curiosity, I weighed the Durant volumes. The per volume weight is about 2.5 pounds. I suppose they would be less in AZAU's domain, and more in Earl's Oregon. -Humidity, you know.
Anyway, do you think that modern house construction could support a library of 2500 volumes? Perhaps the Yuppies have only their old coloring books and a smattering of self-help and stock-pick books, that wouldn't place a heavy load on their domicile structure.
Whatever, I have a proposition for you concerning PM coins.
Email me and enclose your telephone no.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:21 - ID#17077)
@2BRO2B....interesting poetry...
...keep it coming. Maybe you can help turn K-2 into a truly artistic alternative interpetation of PM's.



Lou Paquette
(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:22 - ID#32080)
@Highhopes.....I hear ya
How many times in the past did gold look like it had formed a nice bottom only to breakdown to new lows again?

Your points are well taken, and as much as a long term bull on gold wants to get the bottom, I remain somewhat sceptical - would like to see some $10 up days, gapping up and a break well over $300 or so to confirm this was indeed the bottom. I see some resistance between here and $290 on the chart. The last time gold looked like it had bottomed the Privateer site posted an article to effect - THIS WAS the bottom with great conviction, only to see it hit further lows. I too would like to see the POG drop WELL below the average cost of production, and see some mines close. They haven't yet, gold production is still up by 1% this year even though prices are near 19 year lows.

Still, there seems to have been a mind shift just this past week. Maybe the world is really waking up to the fact there will so be nowhere to hide from the approaching firestorm - except for gold.

Thanx for the sobering comments

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:38 - ID#190411)
Lou Pacquette
You are alarmed by the 1% increase in gold production, versus the 10+% increase in US paper.
I rest the case of gold standard inflation.

I see your point though. Best to ya'.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:42 - ID#384350)
mozel, It wouldn't be the first time
In the mid 70's there was a plane that crashed during takeoff in Chicago. On the plane was a woman carrying $2 million in cash which was to be deposited in a Swiss bank. The flight was going to Washington DC, and I assume onwards to Switzerland. All were killed, the money wasn't found. The FBI was on the scene even before the Fire department. An important man who took that flight every week was warned not to take the flight that day.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:50 - ID#373284)
This pretty much covers the whole kit and kaboodle...uh huh...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:51 - ID#147201)
Gianni D
This is beginning to sound a little weird- not your comment, the whole flight business. Wonder what Drudge has to say. Than you, Charlie

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:51 - ID#26793)
Canada sold 128,000 ounces of gold from reserves in August

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:57 - ID#153110)
@chas @1863 Certificates
You are in an excellent position to demonstrate the fact a Certificate of Thing is not Thing.

Maybe a coin dealer will redeem it for coin for its collector value. USG ain't likely to redeem it for nothing, but FRN. Just like in '33.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:58 - ID#346209)
Thanks for comments for "what do I do with my money" last night. You said arms, gold coins, wheat etc.
I am sorry about my "evolving constitution" remarks ? days back. Your
remarks about 'property' made me realize why I had to sell my house last
year, after 24 years; I could not afford the property taxes anymore.
Also Swissair crash ?effect on gold was interesting. Regards

(Sat Sep 05 1998 16:59 - ID#153110)
@Gianni @That was Dorothy Hunt; Howard Hunt's wife.

Lou Paquette
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:00 - ID#32080)
Good point ERLE - just trying to figure out if this was the bottom or not.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:02 - ID#153110)
Thank you for letting me, and others, know. Truly.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:05 - ID#147201)
mozel re gold certificate
I don't have any of these. I was trying to find out why Gould used grenbacks instead of the gold certificates- which it seems could have been a "call" on gold. No FRN's back then

Lou Paquette
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:06 - ID#32080)
@Donald - and we pay super high tax rates in Canada
to finance fat salaries for beaurocrats in Ottawa to do this? I want a refund!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:08 - ID#227238)
Retired Soldier:
Whatever your professional judgement of the man may be, his first book was one helluva good read. It's his story to tell as he pleases and I'm sure there is full measure of factual modification but the gist of it is that he served well and honorably. More than can be said for many, many of his peers and superiors. ...... right up to the day he kicked the bucket over. ..... And then, a military organization is seldom composed of saints. At least that's my recollection.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:14 - ID#384350)
mozel, Dorothy Hunt
Right mozel. I read about it in a book loaned to me and since returned. Could you give more details? I was trying to remember the woman's name. I was thinking of Senator Connoly before you mentioned Howard Hunt. The book talked of a plan for Texas to secede from the US and would use Silver as currency. The Hunt Brothers attempt to corner the Silver market was, so the book said, an attempt to obtain a money supply for the new nation of Texas. I think the book said that the govt screwed the Hunt brothers by changing margin requirements or something.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:17 - ID#255151)
White House Scandal Update

Drudge says Starr has a mole at the White House.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:20 - ID#384350)
Charlie, Jay Gould
Back in those days some of the Big Banks would collect gold certificates from a certain bank and then present them. The bank not being able to honour them would be forced into bankruptcy. Thus the Big bank put the smaller bank out of business.

Jay Gould starting accumulating physical gold probably by cashing in certificates, but he cornered the market through buying on the futures market and insisting on delivery. Desperate shorts had to go to Jay Gould to buy Gold.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:22 - ID#153110)
Is/Was E. Howard Hunt related to Bunker Hunts ? Didn't know.

Anyway, there has been a lot of airplane sabotage in my opinion. The Swiss crash is highly suspicious to me. Means, motive, & opportunity were all present.

Mike K
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:27 - ID#153283)
Stay Tuned for News!
Saint Abbey is on Face the Nation ( CBS ) tomorrow with Andrew Tobias. I'll bet there are many good laughs to be had. Watch her rescue the market with a few insightful remarks.

Whaddya' mean she's already tried that?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:28 - ID#147201)
mozel re plane sabotage?
Also a lot of controlled media slant as I have noticed. The media coverage is in the same category as Clinton coverage a month ago????

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:29 - ID#287312)
Klinton's answer for a multitude of felonies
I'm so sorry, now don't that fix it all.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:29 - ID#254321)
WJC and the New World Disorder - Joseph Farah
All: Farah from WorldNetDaily is always worth a read. This one is a summary of our international hot spots, and posed the question of whether WJC is fit to lead us through the minefields of the future.

His point is that the Monica stuff is irrelevant in the context of national defense -- I agree. But I still maintain that what really turns people off about WJC is that he lied. The real meat consists of the other XXgate stuff which Kenneth Starr appears to be successfully compiling, more easily now after the Monica stuff got things going. Isn't it interesting that the US dollar's fortunes faded about the same time that WJC's fortunes faded, about Aug 17.

And -- Aug 17, 1987 is about the time that the US dollar faded before that fateful day on Oct 17, 1987. Fortunately, however, in 1998 interest rates are still going down, not up.

Just wait till AG lowers rates! When he does, gold will rally ( unless commodity price are still crashing ) . Wonder if the markets will rally if AG goes ahead with this. End of October? That would be a good time to lower rates, given the generally bearish mood of the markets at that time of the year.

Back to Farah's article -- I think we need to watch oil/oilstocks, and defense stocks very carefully from now on. And the World's hotspots. WJC's weakness will be interpreted as an opportunity for aggression all over the world. The UK inherited the role of the World's policeman for a time, and now the US has picked up the role for better or for worse. Too bad we have lost our moral leadership and well-organized, high morale military that we had under the Bush presidency. Wouldn't be surpriseed if WJC is embarrased by a failed strike somewhere. Or a mis-trike.

I wonder how many of our best are still in uniform. As Old Soldier has said, an essential ingredient to maintaining the peace is a strong military. All the better if you never have to use it. But -- if your military is weak, you are opening yourself up to wars later. May take a few years for the tide to turn back, and morale to rise again in our military. Probably after y2k.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:30 - ID#153110)
Think it through. What was Jay Gould buying on the futures market with ? Greenbacks that the government would not convert to gold, but which the futures contract required be delvered for in gold. Any parallels with today ? Not at Comex, for sure.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:32 - ID#147201)
Gianni D re Gould
I am almost intimately familiar with Gould's methods. Thanx for your comments. He was sharp. Have you got a good source for his attempt to corner the gold market??

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:33 - ID#384350)
mozel, The Hunts
The Hunts in question are probably not related. I'm not familiar with the Hunt family. I just thought that someone named Hunt who could carry around a couple million in cash might be related to the Texas brothers.

Yes, there have been a lot of mysterious/convenient air disasters. Where did you get the Gold angle on this Swiss flight?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:38 - ID#252127)

I'm not sure that lowering rates is a sure ticket toward strenghtening an overpriced US Market, perhaps Japan's is a good case of an overpriced market that hasn't stabilized, even with 1/2% rates, even in view of the Yen carry trade.

In Japan bank ownership and industry cross/ownerships mean powerful buying support by just shuffling shares around and even that failed.

As for lower interest rates improving the US trade balance, I can't an increase in devastated currencies, badly shaken that reversions can occur when least expected. Before the recent powerful devaluations, the interest rate gimmick was a powerful force in creating centers of confidence, which in all probability kept the world fiat ship afloat and made the IMF a savior, rather than the blood sucking Vampires they are finally being seen as.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:39 - ID#17077)
Nobody Wants to be a Sucker....
My final thoughts of the day:

As some of you may recall, I wrote several months ago about my speculation that the equities markets would begin to experience trouble in the Summer.

My central thesis revolved around the fact that a consensus of market analysts and market investors ( I personally polled ) believed that weakness would not begin until October.

Furthermore, I theorized that the government would be more inclined to allow the equities bubble to pop during Summer for psychological reasons since Summer is a time when the people would be in a more optimistic frame of mind ( surrounded by singing birds and flowers and sunshine, etc. ) . After a person takes a severe financial hit, he may take some solace in seeing the many other intangible virtues in life besides one's financial circumstances. It puts things in perspective. On the other hand, there is nothing more depressing than losing one's financial shirt, then stepping outside into either the dying environment of Fall or the cold miserable chill of Winter. Truly depressing because those two seasons are seasons of decay and have traditionally been associated with much mass depression and suicide.

So, it is interesting to note that severe troubles in the equities markets began in late July.

Now, the question is this: when will the culmination of the equities markets' trouble occur?

Again, I must say I would theorize that it will be sooner than later. Most of my friends who imagined an October market debacle expressed definite intentions to exit no later than early to mid- September. They described themselves as shrewd investors who would not allow themselves to be suckered into holding equities into October.

So, the mass small investor psychology suggests September troubles before October problems.

The major objections to this thesis have been presented by those market professional investors who feel that, since Goldman Sachs is NOT going public until late October....and since Treasury Secretary Rubin is a former partner of GS ( with some personal GS financial interests held in escrow ) , then surely, Rubin will do everything in his power to ensure highly auspicious market conditions for Goldman's public offering...for his own personal benefit as well as the benefit of former colleagues and friends.

This particular objection does have a certain compelling logic.

However, here are the central questions: can one man ( Rubin ) hold the entire US financial market together if the mass investor psychology has truly shifted? Moreover, is it possible for Rubin to preclude the Bear downdraft when it appears Fed Reserve Chairman Greenspan is no longer preaching the "America is Immune from Global Economic Contagion" gospel?
Finally, with Starr's impeachment report ready to be released any day now, it seems the President will receive another ( maybe fatal ) blow to his credibility.

Essentially, with a government seemingly no longer united in purpose and interpretation of domestic economic affairs....with a government whose leader no longer commands any credibility or respect from his very own insiders and advisors ( after all, he lied to them for half a year! ) ....with a government that no longer commands any credibility from foreign goverments ( after all, if Clinton lied to his very own inner circle, then how can foreign leaders trust him? ) ....then one must wonder: can this same effete government preclude the apparent urgent troubles facing America's markets and economy?

What do you think?



(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:44 - ID#317193)
F*...peaceful...not what I see in front of us all...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:44 - ID#288100)
(@Donald - and we pay super high tax rates in Canada)
My pay check has over 50% going to deductions..taxes etc. I can do the
same job elsewhere in the world and not pay this much. Guess it's time to move!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:48 - ID#26793)
President Clinton says "the fundamentals are sound" (Now I am REALLY worried!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:49 - ID#254321)
SwissAir Flight
mozel: Good you have your Eagle eyes on this one. The key is in the flight manifest if this plane was sabotaged. The MD11 apparently did have electical problems that could cause cockpit fires, but this one was supposedly fixed. Given the amount of inflammable plastic on a plane, it would not be hard to rig something that looks like an accident -- 'pilots overcome by smoke, plane crashes'. It would be better if nonflammable, smokeless material was used on planes, given the closed pressurized quarters. Remember those unfortunate Apollo astronauts.

With all of our technology, we should at least test a parachute for the fuselage of a plane. Just blow the wings off in an emergency, and float down. Those lifting bodies which are more airworthy than our current design might also be a consideration. Possible to rig up Jato for a landing? Would be high-tech. Even something that worked only 80% of the time would be better than the current odds -- nearly 0%.

I sincely hope it was not sabotage, but it is always best to leave no stone unturned. Isn't it odd that it is a SwissAir MD 11 that has the fire, and not one with an American Airline? Given the Swiss penchant for precision and perfection, I find this hard to believe. The Swiss are nearly as German as the Germans ( ignoring the Italian part of Switzerland ) .

It is odd that we have had so many international flights crash -- any one influential on Flight 800? We know about Ron Brown etal on the Bosnia flight.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:49 - ID#384350)
I know of Jay Gould from a couple of pages in War Cycles Peace Cycles. It's pretty much just an overview. There was talk that President Grant was going to allow the sale of Govt Gold. Jay Gould went to see Grant, and then let everyone believe that Grant had committed not to sell the Gold. Jay Gould quietly exited his positions without telling his partners. Jim Fisk was ruined as well as many others in the Gould Syndicate.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:56 - ID#347267)
Hello to all and a Great Weekend!
Got the following email today; I had signed up for ( the useless ) freebie from Veneroso a while back. Think I may have read the first one or two! For the life of me I can't see anyone paying for this crap. Anyone want to jump on this ---GREAT BARGAIN. Cut from $8 grand to 5!!! Talk about crooks with big egos! There is more of use in one hour of Kitco talk than a complete year of his stuff.

"It has been our pleasure to send you our Gold Watch Service on a trial basis. It is prepared for banking institutions, mining companies, and portfolio managers. Our fee is $8,000 per year; however, we have reduced it for individuals to $5,000 ( monthlies will not be included ) . It can be paid for in soft dollars, which means it can be paid for with
brokerage commissions on some sort of conversion rate. For example, you might need to generate $10,000 in commissions so that we would receive $5,000 of it from a broker. That broker may one of your own choosing, or you can use one of our own."

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:57 - ID#26793)
So. African gold index up 11.7% Friday (FT registered users only)

(Sat Sep 05 1998 17:58 - ID#238422)
Brother S
I think Mossad knows the stuff...

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:00 - ID#316193)
The U.S. markets will be closed on Monday because of the
holiday. Your news-gathering talents on Monday will be very
important. I thank you in advance for whatever time that you
can share.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:02 - ID#384350)
Hair Force 1 just left Shannon
So the air is a little better. Many of us were hoping it would have rained on Klinton during his golf match, but he was lucky as cloudy skies didn't open up.

That plane is Huge. Who was Klinton spending time with when he had Hair Force 1 holding up traffic for 2 hours at LAX 5 years ago? Before you say Christophe, the hairdresser from Beverly Hills. Do you think Klinton would really wait for 2 hours on the tarmac for some queer to cut his hair or do you think there might have been some starlet on the plane for the president's amusement.

Cage Rattler
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:06 - ID#33182)
"The good, the bad and the ugly"
"The good, the bad and the ugly" ( do you remember the movie? ) Clinton says the economy is right on track and the strongest in the world and his obsession is the censored. Rubin says anybody else except the US is responsible for the crisis and his obsession is threatening the poor Japanese leaders. Greenspan says it is not credible to expect that the world crisis will not affect the US economy and his obsession is realism. Among the three I vote for the ugly.

Source: Forex traders forum

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:07 - ID#347235)
You are right in everything you say, there are many High Ranking soldiers who should not have been, it is often said the very best men in the Army are many of the Colonels who DO NOT make General, because they won't compramise their principals enough, Mike Malone and Roger Donlon come immediately to my mind. Hackworths book is a good read if you like mostly fiction and like a guy telling you over and over how good HE was. According to him he was the only good soldier he ever knew.

Cage Rattler
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:09 - ID#33182)
Strengthening of Currency Board Arrangements in Hong Kong

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:09 - ID#26793)
We are having a family picnic thing Monday but I can sneak away a bit. Will be free all morning when the Asian and European stuff is likely to be available.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:10 - ID#238422)
I want you to think about such possibility:
Swiss airplane, lots of Americans on board,
flying from the U.S., Swiss banks, a lot of
"terrorist" money, mostly in European banks
( read...Swiss banks ) , pissed-off terrosrists
( U.S. strike on Afganistan ) , threat of U.S.
to seize "terrorist" money ( read not only
in the U.S., but it may work in Switzerland??? ) ,
strange kind of crash of airplane in perfect
shape...may be it's a word of warning to
Switzerland not to be friends with U.S. in
this search for "terrorist" money + a "little"
pay-off for being pissed-off by stupid Clinton?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:11 - ID#252127)
Gianni Dioro

Your 17:20 brings an interesting thought.

When the US is again whole and we have statesmen running the country ( it's probable ) and gold and silver certificates are once again in circulation, the law can read "that banking institutions and most business organizations are to be disallowed from cashing such certificates for metals". They can use the LBMA, if necessary.

Only indivigual citizens will have the right of convertability by presenting certificates to treasury approvred and bonded employees at the bank.

Such would prevent insiders from raiding the wealth a nation has stored for its citizens.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:16 - ID#26793)
Camdessus complains that Latin American downgrades were "brutally timed"

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:17 - ID#238422)
Old Soldier
As a professional, would you agree with my scenario
of Swiss airplane crash which I posted to JTF? Also,
if you have time to answer, how often you prcatice
with your handgun, and what is your prefered way of

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:24 - ID#26793)
Gold price rise linked to Japanese investors and Russian ruble gold backing

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:26 - ID#344225)
I intend to enhance my holdings of GOLD STOCKS
first thing Tuesday AM.

I am looking at: TVX 1 3/4 , Drooy 2 11/32 ,
RANGY 3/4.

Do any of you know of other GOOD low cost Gold stocks
that I may be overlooking??????

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:27 - ID#45173)
Tank the bond market with a rate drop? Some money will go back into the equities market, but some will have to go elsewhere : )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:29 - ID#347235)
Oris, Anyone
Bro Oris,Don't know if you mean me or OR the other retired OLD SOLDIER, personally I would not be surprised to find ou correct, especially since Prince Bandar was on it. I shoot about 250-300 rounds a month with my Walther PPK .32 cal. But would rather use 00 Buck in 12 GA which spits out 12 pieces of lead the same size. Having trouble with the Y ke
on this thing need a new key board.
Does anyone know if when I go to Germany later this month if I will have trouble with taking about 80 Maple Leafs and American Eagles with me, I need to know before 25th so I can sell them here if need be and replace later. Thanks you in advance, SHALOM

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:30 - ID#237164)
Hong Kong control on currency
I read the artcle but didn't really understand what its impact would be ... if they control the exchange rate artificially, something else has
to give ... what would that be?

Are the new measures going to keep the speculators away?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:31 - ID#347235)
Forgot to say I shoot still targets one week and combat police course next week. You need both.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:33 - ID#26793)
World financial markets now in full blown crisis; there will be no depression.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:36 - ID#238422)
Russian gold again...
I previously stated that Russia is not selling gold,
although I'm not Russia to know for sure. But I was
born and raised in Russia, and I think I know how
it works.

To add to it - printing a lot of new rubles at THIS TIME
and selling gold for dollars ( or even rubles ) at the same
time is something that against "Russian state logic".
Whatever is left in Central Bank of Russia, they will
try to keep it by any means, instead plugging all financial
holes with freshly printed rubles. This is the russian logic..

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:36 - ID#329186)
Retired Soldier (ID#347235 Gold into germany
As it is in "Europe" I would suspect there will be vat to be paid in the UK its 17.5% but could be different ( more ) in Germany ) er sell now and replace !! the price movement.

good luck


(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:38 - ID#227238)
Retired Soldier:
The professional warrior class is commonly criticized for breast beating. Sort comes with the territory it seems to me. George Patton's memoirs come to mind as well.

I would suspect that on those days that yer feeling especially immortal, even you would find it difficult to not let out a war cry or two, now and then. I can't imagine it any other way and would never draw a negative judgement of those who do and have earned the right.

All autobiographies are self serving. By definition. If one is inclined to read them, one's level of credulity must be reduced by at least a factor of 2.

Cage Rattler
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:42 - ID#33182)
Extract of comments by Frank Tauscher
1. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but you've got to realize that I'm well into the 8th year of trying to figure out how the Public Servants who executed a Constitutionally-mandated Oath of Office so easily violated their Sacred Vow and assaulted protections secured for my publications by the First Amendment.

2. Hence, from my perspective, the current crisis is a very strong and severe repudiation of global federalism which has its origins many centuries ago.

3. In my opinion, the consequences of the Mexican bailout in 1982 and its implied guarantee of the Federal Reserve as global lender of last resort are just beginning to be felt.

4. The refusal of Congress to continue to throw dollars down the toilet by financing the IMF and continue to bailout reckless elitist lending appears to be the key to calling the bluff.

5. The ruse perpetrated by the IMF in Russia, where billions of dollars disappeared into foreign bank accounts just 3 weeks after the last IMF "bailout", were just too obvious to too many.

6. The problem really isn't the unwinding of the debt.

7. It's that the international bankers don't want to lose control of their "game" and are willing to inflict as much pain as is required to ensure that the game continues.

8. It's the same process which saw Baron Rothschild finance both countries in war so that the rewards of plunder were assured on one side and the rewards of indebtedness were assured on the other.

9. It's the same story of usury and the old Christian Tally blocks.

10. It's the financing of the Crusades.

11. It's the story of Colonel House, the Warburgs, the Rothschilds, and the train ride to Jekyll Island, Georgia, where the secret plan to establish the Federal Reserve and the Income Tax were conspired.

12. It even goes back before William the Conqueror in 1066 ( then known as William the Bastard ) who invaded England with but a force of 60,000 when the people so despised their own government that they would not raise arms in its defense but instead
allowed the "invaders" to merely walk into and "conquer" their territories - the thinking that the alternative could be no worse.

13. It is the story of the original common law and the Council of 10, 100, 1000 and so on which preceded the Norman Invasion.

14. The Bank for International Settlements - the banker's bank - appears to have been encouraging the flow of dollars overseas, the purchase of US Treasury Bonds with borrowed Yen, and massive central bank lending of gold.

15. The trader will always survive by quickly adapting to circumstances.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:44 - ID#238422)
Retired Soldier
I actually thought to get response from OLD SOLDIER,
but I appreciate your comments also. You are soldier
as well, and your opinion are important, but OLD SOLDIER
probably has more technical knowledge of some specifics
which you probably know also, but on the different level.

Thank you. By the way, what is your favorite beer in Germany,
I mean what would you order most of the time if you can

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:47 - ID#347235)
You are right, I too have my share of medals, not nearly as many as Hack, and have been known to tell a war story or two, but Hack is over the top with his, Pattons own book that he wrote was primarily about his experience in WWI the best books are by Martin Blumenson and Ladislas Farago, Blumenson is more of a fan than Farago but both are good. I would never write my own story but would colaborate with a known historian IF i had anything to say that would contribute to REAL history, but alas I was only a Staff Sergeant Combat Photographer in Viet Nam and a MAster Sergeant Recruiter/Career Counselor when I retired, doubt very much if anyone would be interested in what I have to say. SHALOM

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:47 - ID#250121)
Retired Soldier
You might like to ask Fred@Vienna that question about moving gold into Germany. he frequently posts in the early a.m. EST. I'll draw his attention to your Q.

Cage Rattler
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:48 - ID#33182)
Temporary gold rally ?
Interesting to note that, in Yen, the GO/JY ratio is not CONFIRMING the new lows in gold when priced in US Dollars.

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:48 - ID#384350)
Jack, Retired Soldier
Jack, the problem is with fractional reserves. The interest on money is responsible for the desire to loan out money several times over. Real money in the hands of the people, where banks aren't needed would be nice.

Ret Soldier, you need to fill out a customs form if you are taking out more than $10K cash or equivalent from the US. If you don't then your gold coins may be confiscated. I don't know if there are reporting requirements on entry to Germany.

Keep your coins in your carry-on luggage and guard it. Remember Fergie got her jewels stolen from the luggage she had checked in at the desk. Your coins could be in a coin purse with ordinary coins and then put inside another bag. When passed through the X-ray machine the Gold coins don't shine. But again, declare it if you are over the limit. You don't want the govt seizing your coins, and then having to sue to try to get them back

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:50 - ID#227238)
Cage Rattler:
Frank Tauscher sounds like our kind of people. ..... You sure Mozel didn't write that? ..... {:- ) )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:55 - ID#266105)

That was it and old stuff at that. Well, maybe one more on
Into Wishin' but I shan't plague.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:56 - ID#347235)
Aurator, Oris
Aurator thank you I will be looking for Fred in Viennas advice. Have him E-mail me at withing the next three weeks.

Oris you are right OLD SOLDIER has a Senior Officer perspective I don't have I suspect he is one of the COLONELS who would not comprimise his principals, in fact he stated he retired early rather than serve under the present CINC/POTUS I did also, thank G-d Ihad the option to retire. Sorry I cant drink beer I am apparantly alergic to HOPS
one of the ingredients in beer, I like the taste of Lowenbrau DARK but throw it up after half a glass. Nice talking to you. I will hopefully arrive in Garmisch - Partenkirchen around the 25th. And be able to post again with very little interuptions. Shalom.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 18:58 - ID#227238)
Retired Soldier:
Patton also wrote an informal treatise on his experiences, observations and recommendations, in WWII as well. It was almost in the form of a after battle report. Unfortunately I have forgotten the title. Had he not died prematurely, it probably would bave been massaged and published in a more formal format. Well worth the read.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:01 - ID#26793)
This story is posted without comment.

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:05 - ID#344225)
@ The Scene RE; Intervention (PPT)
The following is a copy of an E-Mail to a tennis buddy
who absolutely can not believe that our Government
would INTERVENE in the US stock market.......


AG & RR timed this latest intervention to their own appearance
on the TV screen. Many times it has been the appearance of
Clinton that saw a miracle recovery in a manner on minutes.

This time it was AG & RR. DO YOU NOW HAVE ANY DOUBT

The awesome power of taxpayer money at work to protect
the savings of sheep !!!!

I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened right before my very eyes. As Robert Rubin stepped out of meeting with Federal Reserve officials yesterday and tried to assure markets that all was well, the Dow went from being down 200 hundred points to down 70 in a space of no more than five or ten minutes. On CNBC, a floor reporter said the move had all the earmarks of "programmed trading."
I thought this particularly pertinent in view of the discussion here and elsewhere about rigged markets. Wouldn't it be nice if all of life's downside could be soothed so easily by the voice of one of our political leaders? Rubin did warn, however, that the contagion could spread elsewhere.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:06 - ID#411112)
Come on Donald give it your best shot...this story deserves comment?


(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:08 - ID#261322)
Charles Keeling
You could buy some BMG ( Battle Mountain ) -it's also dirt cheap. PDG ( Placer Dome ) is still the same-dirt cheap. Both are great buys in here, as well as TVX. That lawsuit should be settled any day now, and it's really unlike;y that they'll lose. The CEO never sold any of his shares, so I figured I should hold. Good luck.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:08 - ID#217338)


The following is a list of dead people connected with Bill Clinton:

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an

apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key

witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a

Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she

was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

Vince Foster - Former White House counselor, and colleague of Hillary

Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the

head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to

have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the

investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull

resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being

investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with


C. Victor Raiser II & Montgomery Raiser - Major players in the Clinton

fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found

dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by

Clinton as a " Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the

woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed

Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill

Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was

involved in several Clinton fund-raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little

Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little

Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He

allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files

were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot wound, ruled a suicide. It was reported


he had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who

visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging

suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson -

Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in May 1994 was found

dead in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a

suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she was

going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill

Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible

corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas state Trooper and fiance of Kathy Ferguson.


of the suicide ruling of his fiance, he was found dead in June

1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of his


Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping

out a window of a tall building January 1994. His client was a convicted

drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant sub-contractor for the CIA related to the

Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot


Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was

Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the

head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until

her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one-car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and

Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparent

suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with

Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June

22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to

Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp.


to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony

August 15, 1993. Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron

Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her

bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department

of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce, who gave John Huang

special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane


Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care

Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small blane

crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council

personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no


Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in the

trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a utility


Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report

was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund-raiser, died March 1, 1994

when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports

Say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena, Arkansas airport drug

operation. Controversial case where initial report of death was due to

falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2 boys had

been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case

died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.


Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck

July, 1988.

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in

April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural


Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his

pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. Was killed in

a set-up robbery July 1989.


Major William S. Barkley Jr.

Captain Scott J. Reynolds

Sgt. Brian Hanley

Sgt. Tim Sabel

Major General William Robertson

Col. William Densberger

Col. Robert Kelly

Spec. Gary Rhodes

Steve Willis

Robert Williams

Conway LeBleu

Todd McKeehan

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:09 - ID#347235)
I had read that but forgot as it is an informal report archived in the CGSC Library and is untitled I read it about 20 years ago and suffer from old timers disease and CRS "Cant remember Sh-t unles reminded of it. You are right it IS a good one.Someone should work it up for publication, but I suspect the family which is very wealthy buy the way is blocking the effort.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:15 - ID#26793)
Both Battle Mountain and Placer Dome have convertible preferred stocks paying 8-9% while you wait.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:17 - ID#286230)
Ain't Seen Nothin
plaintalker: You should see the list of dead associates of George III-- the precursor of Bill.

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:20 - ID#344225)
@ bmacd RE: TVX Lawsuit
Thanks for the info on BMG & PDG. I didn't know
about the TVX lawsuit.

Can you fill me in?

I really like to pick up shares at LOW PRICES..
You get better leverage.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:26 - ID#347235)
The lesson in that is pick your friends carefully, YES?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:40 - ID#317211)
lakshmi @ 11.56
Look also at Franco-Nevada, sister company to Euro-Nevada, but stronger
in gold mining. Both are on the Toronto exchange, and stock value is in
the tank because of that and POG. Their recievables are in $US, but that
cannot be shown in their balance sheets & P&L's. TSE:FN &
TSE:EN - regards.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:42 - ID#147201)
Gianni D your 17:49
Right! He told Fisk to buy the hell out of gold and after he ( Gould ) found out he was not going to be able to accomplish his goal, he sold out leaving Fisk holding the bag. No SEC etc in those days!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:49 - ID#147201)
Gianni D re previous
I forgot. The best book I have found on gould is- The Life and Legend of Jay Gould by Maury Klein. Johns Hopkins University Press. 1986

(Sat Sep 05 1998 19:59 - ID#24333)
gold stocks
Just a general question, won't gold stocks go down in a crashing market? I am assumeing that the market is going to crash. So should one by now or later? What happened in the depression? Thanks

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:00 - ID#434108)
Economic Winter........and the warming trend of gold.
Sept. 3rd & 4th's accelerating share prices in mining stocks,
on 3 to 5 times average daily volume, set's the stage.....
the fuse is lit....
the horses are out of the starting gate....
( for real.....this more false starts )

hold on for the ride,
it's gonna be one hel-of-a race.

Date: Fri Sep 04 1998 11:07
goldfevr ( 'Economic Winter' - approaching.... ) ID#434108:
Copyright  1998 goldfevr/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The market in "golden overcoats" ... is improving.....
and will become 'brisk'....
as autumn unfolds.

deja vu --
from 9/27/97, kitco post:

"When the tent collapses,
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side-posts ...
and even the stakes."

for another perspective:

The 'Titanic' IS sinking ....
no matter the wishful thinking and the denial
of the blind leading the blind...
( as they mostly ignore the 'golden overcoats' & the
'gold-lifeboats' )

Pride goeth before the fall... --
'Just how long did civilization,
believe it could get away with it:
creating a global economy....
based on paper currencies & artificial credit
created by the trillions...... out of thin-air?'

"It is not nice to fool mother-nature"....
especially when it takes the form of --
by the international collective of
political & financial "leaders & experts",
and their corrupted institutions.

A few 'gold-lifeboats' ...
are beginning to be set-out ... upon -
the stormy, trecherous, world-wide seas of:

crashing-currencies, and

but by only by a few, informed, hearty, freedom-loving,
visionary souls.

Meanwhile, a few of them have reported that -
'a sunami - tidal-wave'
is approaching U.S. shores.

Return to Kitco Homepage

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:01 - ID#43349)
It id kind of surprising to me that if there is indeed a PPT that anyone on Kitco would want to talk about it. After all the existence of a PPT can only make the downside of owning paper less. If it became coomon knowledge that there was a PPT to protect the sheeple from collapse in the paper markets prices would ecalate ever higher.

If you knew you could invest in something that would escalate in price, and even if it didn't the government would guarantee you against loss, would you mot be a fool to not take the opportunity?

Can advertising the existence of the PPT be in any way bullish for gold?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:01 - ID#342376)
Great comparison of '29, '87 and now
Prediction is 6650 on the DOW by Friday. Great graphs and commentary.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:03 - ID#259400)
Abbey Joseph Cohen
Ok, maybe I'm a little dim. Just what precisely has Abbey Jospeh Cohen done to deserve the adulation she commands? Throw the numbers out there, dazzle me and maybe I'll be a believer. On the other hand what if she has been sniffing glue and the stock market is going down? What if, god forbid, a recession after a decade of uninterrupted growth is in the cards. Hell, all I'm saying is what if? Just a thought.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:05 - ID#266105)
there is no anecdote
Woodbine, a fragrant vine planted around outhouses to
to mask the smell. y2k info : )

After the gold pyramid scheme of Fisk & Gould collapsed,
in response to Congressional inquiry as to where the
investors money went--- James Fisk: "Gone where the
the woodbine twineth."

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:06 - ID#259400)
Shoot, just for fun and games, suppose we do have a recession? Wow! Our children would starve to death. Well, at least a couple of mine would. Just a thought.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:09 - ID#43349)
It depends upon the orderliness of the crash, if one can speak of order in a crash. Generally though there is a tendency to sell everything and sort out the dross later.

Gold mining shares did well during the depression ( after the crash ) .

Read my earlier posts on booms and busts and you will see that busts happen because all the virtual money disappears.

When banks, brokerages, and funds and such suddenly find they have no liquidity the people who DO have stockpiles of assets on hand are king.

Gold mines. Book value. Liquid assets.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:09 - ID#288295)

Look at the performance ( particularly of the XAU
mining stocks ) the other day when the DOW dropped
500+ points. You will have your answer about what
will very likely happen to them in a crash.

Mining stocks went down with the market in 1987,
and in 1929.

Note that XAU mining stocks are components of the
SP 500 Index ( and I believe HM is also in the
S&P100 ) . Index funds which own these stocks will
HAVE TO SELL them, as they have only a couple
percent cash to meet redemptions.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:13 - ID#433143)
You forgot to mention all of the innocents in the airplane that were killed with Ron Brown. I wonder how many innocent victims there are besides all the people that suspiciously dissappear?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:21 - ID#288295)
Merrill Lynch & gold

Someone posted this morning that Merrill Lynch has turned bullish on gold and gold mining.

Does this seem strange to anyone but me, that the biggest silver bear on the planet would turn bulllish on gold?

Pardon me, but my impression after dealing with one of the big brokerages for years ( NOT ML ) is that when they recommend something, they have a ton of it that they would like to get rid of.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:21 - ID#342376)
Great point about Index Funds having to sell XAU as well because they are part of S&P. That's the good thing about the S.A. golds, not as much worry about a crash.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:26 - ID#288295)

OH, I think that the South Africans will probably get slammed along with everything else...that's why I'm not buying more of them just yet, but I am holding what I have. ( Just in case I'm wrong about this ) ( ;^ ) )

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:41 - ID#348129)
@Charles Keeling
Take a look at Greenstone GRE on the TSE. A producer with cash and plans of increasing production. I believe they found a 4.5 M vein grading 300g / tonne.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:42 - ID#288295)

Here's a thought....If there is a PPT ( I have an open mind on this ) ...Why didn't they go into action after Greenspan's 'Irrational Exhuberance' speech ( es ) to prevent the bubble from getting so big, by acting as a 'Rise protection team'?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:43 - ID#26793)
If stocks fall in an ordely way, a correction is healthful.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:46 - ID#348129)
Many brokerages have turned bullish on Gold stocks, and I beleive many more will follow. The simple logic is their clients would revolt if they are kept out of a profitable market sector ( Gold ) , while they watch others reap the spoils.........

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:50 - ID#348129)
@"U.S., Japan: no policy breakthroughs on economy" --- I think the US Admin is VERY worried
"These kinds of crises, combined currency and banking crises, often last two to three years at least, said Morris Goldstein, a former top IMF economist."

Japan is key to world economy's future, says U.S.

SAN FRANCISCO ( AP ) -- U.S. and Japanese officials concluded high-level talks Friday night aimed at containing a spreading global financial crisis with no new policy commitments from Japan on how it plans to revive its sagging economy.
Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and new Japanese Finance Minister Kiichi Miyazawa told reporters in separate briefings that both countries had essentially spent the discussions repeating previous positions.
Japan insisted that it will implement a program of tax cuts and increased government spending and push the Japanese parliament to enact bills to deal with massive bad loans weighing down the banking system.
But the United States, which has been critical of the speed and quality of Japan's program, heard no new proposals during the talks, Rubin told reporters.
Rubin said the revival of Japan's economy is key to putting the global economy back on a sound footing.
Rubin had conceded before the discussions that he was not optimistic the get-acquainted talks would produce any new initiatives from Japan.
But he still appeared downcast afterward, saying he hoped the talks had at least paved the way down the road for Japan to take the actions necessary.
"It is important for Japan to move. We have been discussing what we think is a very central issue for the global economy," Rubin said. "The world needs Japan to get back on track."
Even as Rubin met with the Japanese official, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told an audience that U.S. central bankers are growing more concerned about the global financial crisis' impact on America's economy. Because of the new concerns, he said, Fed policymakers are now just as likely to cut interest rates as to raise them.
"It is just not credible that the United States can remain an oasis of prosperity unaffected by a world that is experiencing greatly increased stress," Greenspan said in a speech at the University of California, Berkeley.
Because of the growing financial turmoil, Greenspan suggested, the central bank is no longer poised to raise rates over inflation worries, but is just as concerned now about the threat of a serious slowdown.
Japanese officials had suggested before Friday's meetings the possibility that the world's major economies consider coordinated interest rate cuts to spur growth. But Miyazawa and Rubin both said that subject was not raised in their formal talks.
However, asked about Greenspan's comments, Rubin said he would certainly rase the issue over dinner. Greenspan was scheduled to join Rubin and Miyazawa for dinner later Friday.
For his part, Miyazawa said Japan understood America's concern about the need for the world's second largest economy to deal with its own problems as a way of helping to resolve the Asian crisis.
"Against the background of the global recession, Japan recognizes very well the importance of recovery in Japan," Miyazawa said through a translator.
Both the San Francisco meeting -- and Greenspan's speech -- took place after financial markets closed in New York. The Dow Jones industrial average closed down 42 points, at 7640.25, leaving it down a total of 411 points for the week.
Markets across Latin America also took steep dives Friday, despite a special International Monetary Fund meeting in Washington designed to calm anxious investors there.
U.S. officials face a dwindling list of options as the world financial crisis that began a year ago in Asian countries, struck Russia and is now threatening Latin America begins to hit closer to home.
The United States has much riding on the outcome. Although its economy remains strong, many fear the troubles could result in a global recession that would drag down the American economy, which depends in part on selling to customers overseas.
President Clinton's high job-approval ratings are closely tied to the so-far stellar economy, polls indicate. The government reported Friday the nation's unemployment rate held steady at 4.5 percent, near a 28-year low. But job growth is starting to slow in some industries.
Canada, America's largest trading partner, has seen its growth prospects weaken, and Latin American financial markets from Mexico City to Buenos Aires have fallen sharply as nervous investors started a rush for the exits.
Canada, Mexico and the rest of Latin America combined buy 40 percent of America's exports.
In an unprecedented effort to calm fears, the IMF called together Latin American officials, who pledged Friday to keep their economies stable and remain on the path of reform.
Skeptics, though, wonder whether words are enough, believing a rapid recovery in the hardest-hit countries is unlikely.
"These kinds of crises, combined currency and banking crises, often last two to three years at least," said Morris Goldstein, a former top IMF economist.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 20:57 - ID#26793)
At Dow 6500 the economic "wealth effect" will be over.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:07 - ID#347267)
@ Tol1
Greetings to the Tolerant 1:
The One who Lies ( and does other dastardly things ) is coming back to Our White House. Once he leaves the entire place will require fumigating! What are your feelings re the Starr Report;-- somehow I can't seem to trust that he is going to report the things that must be told.

Re Greenspin: I am now positioned short this market except for CEF and KGC; ( aqnd 1/3 dry powder ) therefore he will probably go ahead and lower rates next week, as foretold by the magic rally during the last minutes of trading Friday. Hopefully the result 'twill be a short spike up as they usually are during Bear markets.

Have a great weekend on the Island that is Long. Take care of that arm and shoulder; Keep the young ones close and make it a holiday they will remember.
Best regards; Mtn Bear

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:10 - ID#263254)
Rather nasty news with regard to electric utilities in the states...
hands on message from an "insider" or two...

Gianni Dioro
(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:11 - ID#384350)
A Good Article on Gun Control

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:25 - ID#344225)
@ Gollum RE: Sufferin Gold Bugs.
A war begets defensive action on the other side.

There has been a WAR on GOLD. Lies; disinformation;
unfounded rumors; disparaging discussions by CNBC talking
heads etc. Miners and holders of gold and gold stock
have been crushed under the heels of the CB's who lease
gold at a pittance.

The equities maarkets have soared and we have not shared
in the action one whit.

Does the PPT protect the gold share holder?

Remember: Gold is a relic of a bygone time. People who
invest in this barbarous relic are weirdos ! Gold has no
place in todays modern economy. All of this has been
said. The price of GOLD has been driven down by the FEDS
in order to leave NO PLACE ELSE TO GO except stocks or
treasuries. PAPER.

I don't want to see a crash. I want to see a slow BEAR.
He should be growling and bitting ass.

Politicians dont want to be encumbered by hard assets.
They want all the power to print as much paper as they can
whenever they want to and for whatever reason.

Politicians have SHORT term goals. When they get their
way, the PEOPLE pay the price in the end. GOLD?
It checks the power of Government and tends to make them
just a little bit more honest.

Just look at the financial chaos in the countries that
do NOT have Gold reserves.

There is no doubt about the existence of the PPT. You saw
it in action on Friday while RR & AG talked following the
meeting in Frisco. A ten minute talk, and the Dow went
from -200 to = 50. This co-ordinated effort was helped
along by the PPT action on wall street.

A bubble has to be popped. It is festered, and can take
us into DEPRESION. It is healthy to pop that festerd
bubble. AG has lost his way. He has become myopic and
sees ONLY INFLATION. Time for retirement I think.

This runaway bubble market that has been pushed by WJC for
political reasons is not in the best interest for any
investor. What about free markets? Isn't that what we
preach to other countries?

If the market falls----WJC is outta there ! If you love
the USA at all, you have to be for that.

There are lots of links that prove the PPT is alive and
active. They have been listed here many times.

If you have government INTERVENTION, how do you equate
that into your charts? What does that do to your wave
theorys? Losers become winners and turn into sheep.
When the game is RIGGED---it is all over, and why play?

Men make mistakes. AG is a man. He said we have a bias
towards inflation and raising rates when the world, and
GOLD was telling him that we were on the verge of
deflation. He almost pulled us into the abyss; OLD
SENILE FART. He is perhaps leaned on very heavy by
the Clinton appointees that surround him. AND--Clinton
is a proven criminal.

HERE IS TO FREE MARKETS !!!! We don't need no stinkin PPT.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:30 - ID#434158)
IMF, @Cage Rattler
Pat Buchannan shares some of the ideas you posted.

"Russia's chief financial officer, Venianin Sokolov, was quoted in that column as conceding that all the IMF billions pumped into his country had been lost, wasted or stolen "at the highest levels" of what he called an "entirely corrupt regime." "

"Friends, this is coming close to indictable criminal fraud.

Yet, according to London's Financial Times Aug. 20, "The IMF is expected to disburse the second tranche of its $11.2 billion loan in September to replenish the central bank's reserves and control the slide in the ruble." If Congress allows this loan to go forward and shovels out the $18 billion demanded by President Clinton for the IMF, it must be considered a moral accomplice to the looting of America. "

Buchannan goes on to say that the whole Asian collapse goes back to the IMF bailout of Mexico, which demonstrated to international banks that we would bail them out of any questionable loans to developing nations. IMF funds do not benefit the people in the nations to which they are given, but the creditors of those nations.

In this time of confession for politicians, has Buchannan been lurking on Kitco???

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:40 - ID#335190)
Matches, buckwheat, sugar @ Storehouse of value & Concentrated army units near Moscow????
Lebed said that the leadership's top priority should be paying internal debts by means of monetary emission. He added that Russia's foreign creditors understand that "first we restore order inside the country, and then we pay off our foreign debts some time in the future--or we never pay them." Then, Lebed advocated, the ruble should be allowed to find its own level against the dollar, after which the exchange rate should be brought in line with the Central Bank's gold and foreign-currency reserves. LF

On the morning of 4 September, the ruble fell 26 percent to 16.99 rubles per $1 from the previous day's level of 13.48 rubles. In his speech to the Federation Council, Chernomyrdin described the ruble as "becoming wooden." He said "people are buying matches,buckwheat, and sugar," implying that these commodities are a more reliable storehouse of value. JAC

Speaking in Astrakhan on 3 September, acting Russian Defense Minister Igor Sergeev warned of a possible replay of the violence that followed President Yeltsin's decree on dissolving the Duma in fall 1993 unless a new Russian government is named soon, ITAR-TASS reported. Sergeev was observing joint air defense exercises by Russian, Belarusian, Kazakh, and Kyrgyz forces. Armenian Defense Minister Vazgen Sargsian, who also attended, said that Armenia will participate in similar exercises next year. Sergeev's press secretary, General Anatolii Shatalov, told Interfax on 4 September that rumors of army units being concentrated near Moscow are "untrue" and "a provocation." LF

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:42 - ID#43349)
@Charles Keeling
Maybe so, but the government certainly isn't advertising the existence of the PPT and the more loudly YOU do the mor people will find the equity market to be attractive. The more you spread the word that the government is aginst the price of gold recovering the less anyone will want to invest in it.

Gold will live or die on it's own merits.

I saw the market come up in the last 30 minutes or so just like it always does when the day traders open the day short. The decline shortly after the market open was about the same size as that rise at the end. So what?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:52 - ID#43349)
Not only that, but if even a president can not keep a wiretap secret or a sexual peccadillio under wraps, or selling guns to the contra, how is it that they can keep supposed massive intervention in the markets via trading millons and billions of dollars ubder wraps. Why doesn't Matt Drudge or any of the other newslingers uncover it?

There have been occasions in the past when some drastic measures had to be taken, but they have been times of real crises. Not every little wiggle in the market.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:55 - ID#93199)
Fidelity Select Gold Charts
Fidelity Select Gold & Precious Metals Charts
5 Years, 30 day and hourly charts at:
Click on Gold Sectors

Select Gold UP almost 30% in past 4 days!!!

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 21:56 - ID#344225)
@ Gollum RE: Free Markets without government intervention.
If you do your home work, and you figure what is going to go up
and what is going to go down, you deserve to be rewarded.

If you go long, or you go short based on your homework it makes no difference.

It just doesn't seem fair that the government should determine
who the winners and losers should be in the game.

Here lately, this concept is going into overseas markets. Hong
Kong decided only recently that their government should have the
right to determine who the winners and losers are.

It is MHO that government screws up just about everything that
they get involved in. Supply & demand works just fine until
controls and market intervention enters the scene.


Please check out the links on this home page....

Old Soldier
(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:04 - ID#238299)
Quality of terrorists and marksmanship training
Oris, I really dont think the terrorist are clever as you. Neither do I think they are very skilled or professional. Reason for my opinion? They have had remarkably little success against tiny Israel.

I shoot a lot at tiny targets. Shotgun shells, pebbles, dots on paper. I shoot a lot at tiny living targets, flies, lizards, fish, frogs, rabbits, etc. I find that the ability to hit tiny targets greatly improves my speed and accuracy against larger targets. I win a lot of beer with this practice regimen too!!!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:11 - ID#43349)
@Charles Keeling
That's the one I was going to post.

If uou actually take the time to read it you will see the only thng it talks about are 1 ) The government has a planning commitee for how to deal with liquidity crises in the event of financial panic ( it woeld be irresponsible of them not to ) , and 2 ) in the case of real actual such crises in the past the Fed has made sure plenty of cash was in the banking system an gave assurances they would make loans available to any institution that might need them. This is the same as making sure a bank has enough money handy in case there is an expected run on the bank.

So what?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:13 - ID#43349)
Someone starts a rumor. Someone else kind of likes the idea behind it. People add "evidence" to support it. Before you know it the rumor is a fact.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:14 - ID#335190)
Roger Bacon: from Compendium Studii Philosophiae @ Men,Slaves to gluttony & Error of wisdom
After twenty years of study and experiments, during which he expended on books and instruments the equivalent of nearly 40,000 modern money [=$200,000 in 1910!], Bacon joined the Franciscan Order, a step which he evidently lived to repent.

His superiors forbade him to publish anything, and he would have died unknown but for the intervention of Pope Clement IV, who had heard of him before his elevation to the papacy, and who in 1266 sent a letter bidding him write down his ideas "without delay, and with all possible secrecy, without regard to any contrary precept of your Superiors or any constitution of your Order."

In 1271 he followed these up with the Compendium Studii Philosophiae, from which the following extracts are taken ( ed. J S. Brewer, R.S. 1859 ) .

ROGER BACON: from Compendium Studii Philosophiae ( p 398. )

...Yet the truth is that there has never been so great ignorance and such deep error, as I will most clearly prove later on in this present treatise, and as is already manifestly shown by facts.

For more sins reign in these days than in any past age; and sin is incompatible with wisdom.

Let us look upon all conditions in the world, and consider them diligently; everywhere we shall find boundless corruption, and first of all in the Head.

For the Court of Rome, which once was ruled by God's wisdom, and should always be so ruled, is now debased by the constitutions of lay Emperors, made for the governance of lay-folk and contained in the code of civil law.

The Holy See is torn by the deceit and fraud of unjust men. Justice perishes all peace is broken, infinite scandals are aroused. This bears its fruit in utterly perverse manners; pride reigns, covetousness burns, envy gnaws upon all, the whole [Papal] Court is defamed of lechery, and gluttony is lord of all. . .if this be so in the Head, what then is done among the members?

Let us see the prelates; how they run after money, neglect the cure of souls, promote their nephews, and other carnal friends, and crafty lawyers who ruin all by their counsels; for they despise students in philosophy and theology, and hinder the two Orders, who come forward to serve the Lord without hire, from living in freedom and working for the salvation of souls.

Let us consider the religious Orders: I exclude none from what I say. See how far they are fallen, one and all, from their right state; and the new Orders [of Friars] are already horribly decayed from their first dignity.
The whole clergy is intent upon pride, lechery, and avarice; and wherever clerks are gathered together, as at Paris and Oxford, they scandalize the whole laity with their wars and quarrels and other vices. Princes and barons and knights oppress and rob each other, and trouble their subjects with infinite wars and exactions, wherein each strives to despoil the other even of duchies and kingdoms, as we see in these days.

Men care not what is done nor how, whether by right or wrong, if only each may have his own will; meanwhile they are slaves to gluttony if and lechery and the wickedness of other sins. The people, harassed by their princes, hate them and keep no fealty save under compulsion; moreover, corrupted by the evil examples of their betters, they oppress and circumvent and defraud one another, as we see everywhere with our own eyes; and they are utterly given over to lechery and gluttony, and are more debased than tongue can tell.

Of merchants and craftsmen there is no question, since fraud and deceit and guile reign beyond all measure in all their words and deeds.

( p. 425. )

The second principal cause of error in the present pursuit of wisdom is this: that for forty years past certain men have arisen in the universities who have created themselves masters and doctors in theology and philosophy, though they themselves have never learned anything of any account;

nor will they or can they learn by reason of their position, as I will take care to show by argument, in all its length and breadth, within the compass of the following pages
FWIW, Take Care

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:15 - ID#300202)
@Lookin' For A Conspiracy
Sketchy info obtained from third party says a Swiss Ambassador falls
in front of train this date-no further info other than killed & brother
of Peggy's Cove Swiss Flight dies of heart attack believed to be today-
aged 35 yrs-on flight from Chicago to Zurich ( diverted to Toronto where he died ) . Kitco sharpies-do ur homework.


Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:27 - ID#344225)
@ Gollum RE: More PPT LINKS

These are the real good ones. Credibility.

Been going on for years. But NOW happens almost every

How is it tied to the political ambitions of the POTUS?

Be objective, and read these links.

The President of Indonesia, Suharto, has about 30 Billion in assets
from many years of plundering the people of Indonesia.
Donations were made to the POTUS through Riady.
Billions of US dollars were sent back to Indonesia by
WJC & RR after they got in office. It came out of this slush fund.

It is all public record. Was it a payback? STARR knows.

This same slush fund is now used by RR, and WJC. I wont go further,
it is a very good read.

A 60 billion dollar slush fund, and withdrawals can only be
made by the cooperation of two people: WJC & RR.

Now you know, and I will have to be killed.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:30 - ID#300202)
@Mounted Police
wud have criminal jurisdiction but wud be "lookin' for a reason" ( Johnny
Paycheck ) to write it off. Aviator glasses ( FBI ) would be directing investigation while allowing RCMP to believe they are in control & of course RCM Police Commissioner & Feebeee Director wud be communicating
directly ( of course under the guidance of their Federal bosses ) There is
a pecking order.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:32 - ID#261155)
@would any of you's
boy's be interested in 12.5 kilo bars of .9995 @ spot plus 3%?

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:33 - ID#300202)
Oh yeah
Why wud brother of unidentified victim be flying to Zurich. Pain would
take me to Peggy's Cove for healing. Human nature-I think!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:37 - ID#153102)
@Blinkered Men @What Is the Difference @Rigged
Perhaps someone could dig up the reference I posted to the Public Law known as the Credit Control Act before somebody here succeeds by PR in turning a fact into a rumor.

What is the difference between government regulation in the currency market, the milk market, the tobacco market etc etc and in the stock market. Name a market government does not intervene in. Is there some kind of sanctuary on Wall Street ?

In every economic plan there are planned winners and planned losers. The people who promote regulation only talk about who will win and how much. It's all rigged. The unbelievable part is that the suckers still talk about free markets and free enterprise.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:37 - ID#43349)
@Charles Keeling
If you want to know what's REALLY making the market go up and down hundreds of points in a few minutes on any significant news that hits the net, read these links:

I could post hundreds of others.

As the internet grows the impact on the market is getting bigger and bigger and more dramtic all the time.

Oh, and by the way the "more links" you gave just reference one back to the Washington Post one or else talk about things going on in foreign markets. I still see no item saying the US intervenes directly in the
equity markets. I think tje problem is that I AM reading these things objectively

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:38 - ID#261155)
@ hello Au

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:43 - ID#43349)
There isn't anything in life today you can do that isn't "rigged". We no longer have the freedom to life the life we choose that our forbearers did. No doubt about it.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:43 - ID#411320)
I've got my windmill, my generator, tuna, 100 cans, ammo, and 100
oz of gold and silver. let's get it on mutter.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:46 - ID#183109)
Working on a RANGY article.

"The RTZ joint venture covers some 800,000 hectares of mineral rights owned by Randgold. Systematic exploration has commenced...encouraging results have been received and follow up exploration is taking place."

DOES 800,000 HECTARES = 3088 SQ. MILES, or do I need remedial conversion training? Thanks.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:48 - ID#335190)
September 5, 1998

To the unpaid workers of Russia 'capitalism is dung'

TULA, Russia ( AP ) -- Taisa Yevmanenko hadn't been paid in 11 months but she kept on working. Weeks of seeing the ruble fall and prices soar were too much for her dignity, so she left her factory for the picket line.

"We get dribs and drabs so we don't starve to death," she said inside the tent before the Tula government building that has been her home for the last two weeks.

"We're tired of being trampled and oppressed."

City officials haven't been paid for three months, teachers for the last three to four months and some factory workers in Tula haven't seen a full month's pay in a year.

Capitalism -- Dung. Zionism -- Dung, reads one poster. President, Get a Cold and Die, said another. Socialism or Death and If You Vote, You Lose, said others.

Pro-communist sentiment is strong in Tula.

Now Dzurtsev Irbek now wears the button of the Stalinist Russian Labor movement. "I wanted reforms. I wanted to be a farmer," said the unemployed coal miner.

"I waited, and waited but there were no reforms. The politicians are criminals. "Except for imports, there are no reforms."

Zoya Mikhailova is selling pears from her garden for two rubles a kilogram. At that rate, she needs to sell 11 kilograms of pears to buy one package of chicken legs, which she uses to make soup stock.

Nobody in Tula expects life to improve soon.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:49 - ID#411112)
My 2c on was no accident IMO...I'am calling the smoke in the cockpit was a gas...what

type I don't know based on the transcript
released this afternoon there is a six minute
gap from last transmission to
crash....granted an electric fire could be
responsible ,however could smoke from an
electric fire knock out the thinks
I smell whats new

Charles Keeling
(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:50 - ID#344225)
@ GOLLUM RE: "other links"
There are 5-6 of them, and it takes about 30-45 minutes to read them.

You haven't had time to do that yet. Of course that is IHMO.

Give it a go. I was personally astounded. You have to read them all,
and then just put it all together.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:53 - ID#227238)
Your ability to cut to the essentials is nothing short of uncanny. That one was unbelievably good. It's just too bad that your thoughts never reach beyond this forum.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:57 - ID#335190)
September 5, 1998

Cops break up Million Youth March in Harlem

NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Filled with fiery rhetoric against whites, Jews and police, the Million Youth March ended with a clash between police and participants after an organizer riled up the crowd Saturday.

At the end of the event billed as a black empowerment rally, organizer Khallid Abdul Muhammad called the police names and told participants to

"beat the hell out of them with the railing if they so much as touch you.

"We have a right, a God given right, a constitutional right to defend ourselves against anyone who attacks us," said Muhammad, dismissed as an aide to Nation of Islam minister Louis Farrakhan after a 1994 speech in which he referred to Jews as "bloodsuckers" and insulted Pope John Paul, homosexuals and whites.

More than 3,000 police officers were at the rally, which Mayor Rudolph Giuliani estimated about 6,000 people attended. Organizers expected 50,000.

People of all ages came to the event, which triggered controversy earlier this summer when Giuliani denied organizers a permit, calling it a "hate march." A court said the event could go on but scaled back its duration and size.

Giuliani said the march turned out to be precisely what he predicted, one "filled with hatred, horrible, awful, vicious, anti-Semitic and other anti-white rhetoric, as well as exhortations to kill people, murder people...The speeches given today should not occur anyplace."

Malik Zulu Shabazz, a rally organizer and one of its lawyers, said opponents to the march, whom he called "Uncle Tom, bootlicking, buck-dancing...politicians," must be voted out of office.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 22:58 - ID#300202)
U have just described ur own self imposed limitations. Got gold? Got
freedom? Just recently went thru a process of polling info. D.O. Birth?
Reply-Not telling. Why not? Because I KNOW WHAT IS DONE WITH THIS INFO.
BELIEVE ME-I KNOW. Polling Officer called me next day-"What is ur D.O.B."
Reply-I am 52 yrs of age-that's all u need to know. Conversation was much more elongated-but u get da point. U have no diea ( respecfully-maybe u do )
what is done with this info.
Tom @ 52

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:00 - ID#43349)
@Charles Keeling
I have read them. There are also many more than the ones you posted. There are NONE that give any instance ot the government interveneing in the equity markets.

I could dig up a lot more material the "proves" the existence of UFOs. Perhaps the are extraterestrial aliens in the market.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:03 - ID#43349)
That is very percptive.

Almost everyones limitations are largely self imposed. Not everyone knows their limitations, self imposed or not.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:03 - ID#317211)
Gollum, Charles Keeling, mozel: Interesting interplay. Is it rigged?
PPT may soon be as transparent as Hong Kong gobmint intervention.
Are they just doing their jobs, or is this yet another intrusion on
the so called "free market". Answer is YES to both ?'s

Do they have enough ammo and invisibility to succeed? This is the
question. Well worth all of our close attention here, as the game
is rigged against gold, fer shure-fer shure. Thanks & Regards to all 3.

Go Gold.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:06 - ID#43349)
I hope they DO become more transparent. So far they are doing a pretty good job of staying hid. Far better than Clinton or Nixon or Oliver North and so many others.

If they would become more tangilbly exposed there are a lot of people ready to take a bote out of them.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:06 - ID#250121)

800,000 HECTARES = 3088.81 SQ. MILES

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:09 - ID#153102)
@Earl Maybe.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:16 - ID#300202)
Correct-BUT SAME must be transcended by all self imposing creatures.
Nother wine & gone ta bed. May God bless all freedom seeking individuals.
We shall never obtain true freedom BUT allow us to clear the way for our children. Love Kitco & freedom of expression.


(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:21 - ID#43349)
Alas in thousands of years only a few have ever been able to transcend. It is the nature of maya. Sometimes it is better to be strong in the way the willow is strong rather than the oak.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:24 - ID#183109)
AURATOR @ 3088 SQ. miles
Thanks for the help ol' wise one.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:30 - ID#317211)
Gollum, Namaste and congrat's on bailing from Gollum A&A
Why are you thinking about yellowcabs, is there a nationwide strike of
cab drivers pending?

The truth is out! Your addiction to peanuts is now well known, and
you were simply avoiding the "peanut free zone" on all future flights.

Still a smart move. Counseling on "peanut fixation" now available thru
Jimma Carter Institute. Contact Blooper for details, if you can find him.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:30 - ID#348295)
Your post that you shoot lots of small things, most of all,
little animals, that you brag about tells much about you.
They do not shoot back, do they? They who have no one to
help them, just suffer and die at your whim. Not good.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:32 - ID#300202)
Not ONEUPMANSHIP-But Pepsi is better than Coke. This is the way of the DAO. Good night all! And thanks for keeping my spirit alive. Lets all

Will be here tomorrow-Promise u won't hear me!!!! To all my secret friends.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:34 - ID#252391)
Word is, over at Silicon Investor, that you are spreading word that ABX is about to close out their gold hedge - or is at least strongly considering doing so. Of course doubting Tommases think it unlikely that such inside information would slip out - especially for broadcasst on KITCO. Any further comments?????

Anybody else up at this hour heard this story.??

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:36 - ID#335190)
Mozel @ Thought you might be interested in this site (Guild/Corporation/Religion)

With Regard to Medieval England

This guide has undergone a long period of gestation. It began as a list of feudal terms compiled by Michael Adams in November 1988

ADVOCATE: Cleric with a doctorate in Roman or Canon Law with a monopoly of pleading in the Church courts.

ATTORNEY: The attorney represented clients in formal aspects of litigation, managing suits for absent clients, representing their interests in the various Courts of Law, taking out writs, and instructing pleaders. Professional attorneys appeared much earlier than professional pleaders, and down to the fifteenth century any person ( usually a family member or friend ) could represent another as his or her attorney even though they themselves were neither professionally trained nor retained.

COMMON LAW: The term referring to laws and procedures common to the entire realm; often also known as "Royal Law." In England, the term specifically applies to the system of law based on both statutory law and judicial precedent and administered by professional judges drawn from the ranks of professional lawyers.

COURTS OF LAW: The medieval English, like most medieval people, were subject to a wide variety of courts. Though the "central royal courts" which met at Westminster were the most important for the future development of the Common Law, most medieval Englishmen only had contact with one of the many others.

HIGH COURT OF ADMIRALTY: This began in the mid-fourteenth century with jurisdiction over naval affairs, but also many mercantile matters, especially involving those between foreign merchants on English soil, or between foreign and English merchants. It was presided over by a judge of the Admiralty, usually a Doctor of Law applying the Roman Law of the Sea.

GUILD: A term applied to medieval trade associations. The aims of such associations were to protect members from the competition of foreign merchants and maintain commercial standards.The first guilds were merchant guilds, then later came craft guilds as manufacturing became more specialized. Guilds maintained a system of education, whereby apprentices served a master for five to seven years before becoming a journeyman at about age nineteen. Journeymen then.worked in the shop of a master until they could demonstrate to the leaders of the guild that they.were ready to become masters. Guild members were forbidden to compete with each other, and.merchants were required to sell at a just price. There was a heavy religious component to most.guilds, each of which honored their own patron saint through sponsoring festivals, and floats or.even plays on major feast-days.
FWIW Take Care

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:38 - ID#43349)
Tantalus, I greet the place in you which is of truth, of light and of peace.

Actually I suddenly realized there would be a lot more demand for ground transportation in the future. I think maybe a shoe company might not be a bad idea either.

The Hatt
(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:40 - ID#294232)
Jims/ My source for this story is very reliable!
Keep in mind that if you owned a Company that could close out a position with a one billion dollar gain, would you not be tempted... Perhaps they are planning to shut down a couple of high cost producers which would help them from a tax standpoint as well as reducing their average cost per ounce!

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:40 - ID#43349)
Sweet dreams.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:43 - ID#250121)
here's Hatt's original post

wise schmise, I gott a piece of freeware called conversion that can convert hundreds of units of measurements, works on Mac only I put it on Barts server ages ago.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:49 - ID#317211)
Gollum: You could be right.
Of those I've spoken to re: Y2K, even the worst ho-hummers admit that
the last place they will be on 12/31/99 is on an airplane

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:51 - ID#431200)
-Indian ``Prince'' fights for his palace
The treasures at the palace include the ``maharaja's'' golden carriage, which is mounted on an elephant back, covered with 80 kg ( 176 pounds ) of solid gold sheets, a gold covered throne, palanquins and chariots. 10:10 p.m. Sep 05, 1998 Eastern

-Indian ``Prince'' fights for his palace

By Y.P.Rajesh

BANGALORE, India, Sept 6 ( Reuters ) - It is the longest battle ever fought by the 600-year-old royal family of Mysore in southern India.

The prize is a lavish 86-year-old palace. The battleground is the country's courtrooms. And the opponent is the state government.

The chief minister of Karnataka state announced late last month that India's President K.R. Narayanan had given his assent to legislation to acquire the palace.

But a descendant of the former princely state's rulers is not accepting that.

``We will challenge this...we will fight it out,'' said Srikantadatta Narasimharaja Wodeyar, 48, scion of the former rulers of Mysore.

The fight concerns a law passed by the Karnataka state government to acquire the magnificent Mysore Palace built by Wodeyar's grandfather.

``It is very unfortunate,'' Wodeyar told Reuters.


Mysore was a princely state during British rule. The palace is located in Mysore city, 140 km ( 87.5 miles ) from the Karnataka state capital Bangalore.

India gained independence from Britain in 1947, and abolished special privileges enjoyed by former princely rulers in 1970. The tussle over ownership of the palace has already lasted 12 years.

The legal battle has gone all the way to India's Supreme Court, which upheld Wodeyar's claim, before the Karnataka government responded by framing a special law.

In 1975, Wodeyar asked the Karnataka government to take over the running of the palace, saying he was unable to maintain it. The state took over the palace the following year and allowed the heirless Wodeyar to live in one of its unobtrusive wings.

Several Indian ``maharajas'' and ``princes'' were allowed to own their palaces and estates in return for joining the Indian Union when the country gained independence in 1947.

The ``prince,'' as the overweight Wodeyar is sometimes fondly called, changed his mind in 1978 and asked the state government to return the palace.

Wodeyar said that the state promised to pay him for transferring the palace but did not do so despite earning large sums as gate fees.

With the government neither returning the palace nor making a payment, Wodeyar went to court in 1986. The Karnataka High Court, the state's highest court, in November 1997 ruled that the state must return the palace to Wodeyar.


Karnataka's appeal to the country's Supreme Court against the High Court judgment failed. So it framed a special law to acquire the palace, which the state legislature passed and sent to the president for his assent.

According to the legislation, Wodeyar will receive one-off payment in compensation of 320 million rupees ( $7.5 million ) for giving up the palace. He is to receive a further sum of 10 million rupees and an acre of land if he moves out of the section of the palace he lives in.

``Our action is directed purely by public interest,'' chief minister J.H. Patel said.


Inaugurated in 1912 after a fire destroyed the old, wooden palace in 1897, the Mysore Palace is one of India's grandest.

Located in the centre of Mysore on a sprawling estate, it is bedecked with carved ceilings, solid silver doors inlaid with ivory and jewelled mirrors from Venice.

The treasures at the palace include the ``maharaja's'' golden carriage, which is mounted on an elephant back, covered with 80 kg ( 176 pounds ) of solid gold sheets, a gold covered throne, palanquins and chariots.

``There is a general doubt over whether Wodeyar will be able to preserve and maintain the beauty and grandeur of the palace,'' said Krishna Vattam, columnist and long-time royal family watcher in Mysore.

Vattam said Wodeyar has not been successful in maintaining the grandeur of other smaller palaces and royal estates in his possession in Mysore.

Wodeyar says he can find ways to earn the money needed.

There has been speculation that he might convert the palace into a hotel like he did with another palace in Mysore.

``Why should we convert it into a hotel?'' asked Wodeyar. ``And even if it was converted into a hotel...what is the harm in it?''


``Though the bill can be quashed by the courts we are quite confident it won't happen,'' S. Vijay Shankar, the advocate general of Karnataka, told Reuters.

Shankar said the Karnataka high court had upheld the Bangalore Palace Acquisition Act of 1996 and the act to acquire the Mysore Palace is on the same lines.

Two years ago, Karnataka had framed a similar law to take over the Bangalore Palace, which was also owned by Wodeyar. ``As far as I can remember, the Supreme Court has not quashed a law like this,'' Shankar said.

But Wodeyar and his battery of lawyers hope this time around it will be different.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:52 - ID#43349)
And even if they are, it might still be the last place they will be.

(Sat Sep 05 1998 23:57 - ID#252391)
Thanks Aurator and HAtt
Thanks for getting me up to date. I suspect your post Mr or Mrs Hatt will be worth a couple of dollars on the open, Tuesday. I will be truely significant if those hedges starting getting lifted.

I've been thinking that soon rising gold prices will be seen as good for equities as they will be anti depressioanry.

I have found being on he long side of gold to also be very stressful, bring about many moments of dismal self examination to say nothing of financial losses. Perhaps those will be recouped, soon, maybe not until we have more shakeouts, head fakes and failed rallies. But given last week's action in the metal I think we are seeing the reaction that will occur when money starts moving into this sector. It will be dramatic.

One point old Farfel made that I thought was very good was that the long holders of gold will be as likely as anybody to miss the big move as they will be apt to sell out at breakeven, long before the masses pour in. I'm trying to avoid that mistake as strongly as I have vowed never again to stay in a declining market.

Thanks to you both a gain and have a good weekend.