Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:01 - ID#45173)
One for the road, this for man with the world's most serious jones for WJC: tolerant1
The Bill Clinton version: My Favorite Things

BJs and land deals in whitewater places,
Big Macs and french fries and girls with big faces,
Lots of nice cleavage that makes willie spring,
These are a few of my favorite things

Susan McDougal and Gennifer Flowers,
Horny young interns who while 'way the hours,
Profits from futures that Hillary brings,
These are a few of my favorite things

Beating the draft board and getting elected,
Naming to judgeships some hacks I've selected,
Conspiracy theories that blame the right wing,
These are a few of my favorite things

Golfing with Vernon and suborning perjury,
Falling down drunk that required knee surgery
Stars in the White House who come here to sing,
These are a few of my favorite things

Meeting with Boris and Helmut and Tony,
States of the Union with lots of baloney,
Winning debates and the joy of my flings,
These are a few of my favorite things

When that Jones bites,
When Ken Starr stings,
When I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember my favorite things,
And then I don't feel so bad

Don't know who wrote it, wasn't me.


Bill El Zebub
(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:02 - ID#261352)
At risk of being banned forever... The Clintons believed in the unatainable
too friggin bad Bill had a h**don for the more gamely persuits.
It has proven a political tool. Tell me the Republicans dont dip
their wands too! A**Hole conservatives!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:16 - ID#373403)
It's all coming down this week! Or going up if you a a gold/bear investor.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:16 - ID#401460)
Many are still in denial about BC.

I actually had a guy today try to tell me that all of Clinton's problems are fabricated by the radical right wing christian white supremists who hate Clinton and are trying to get him out of office.

I didn't even argue with him, what is the use? Some people are so friggen dumb that they believe what they want no matter how wrong.

Hillary "The Right Wing Radical Christians made my husband unziped his pants for a employee while at work, then they made him lie about it on the witness stand while under oath."


(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:16 - ID#31867)
EJ, Namaste' a gulp to ya...Bill El Zebub, Namaste' a gulp to ya...conservative?!?
huh...I still wear tall rubber boots to Scotland for the easy and treason...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...treason does not mean a damn thing to me...treason...plenty of rope I have...yes...make no mistake about that...none...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:18 - ID#252391)
No More tax payer $$ for the IMF / EZ BELIEVER
You have to be kidding asking the US tax payer to put up more money for the IMF. If anybody sees a congreesman or senator give 'em my feelings for me. You have to be kidding.

I concur the market seems to run on liquidity and feeling - but hasn't it always.

Crucial evening seasons coming up - if gold can rally and the DOW not, then we have important divergence, a sign to add to minimal small gold holdings. Perdiction: Dow Globex and S&P will come back to unchanged by the opening NY and Gold will be $2.75 higher.

EZ BELIEVER - I got some material from SSRIF's investor relations person - my question is how does this company ever make money. How can it be valued - I know don't worry its a long term option on silver - long term meaning unless the company goes belly up or dilutes current ownership out of existance.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:21 - ID#433172)
I noticed in your earlier post a reference to UFO's. I've been interested in what you have to say about perception, quantum phenomona etc. In short i saw a UFO plain as day.

It occured in late Augest 1970 on the Pend Oreille River about 40 miles north of Spokane Washington near a wide spot in the road named Tiger. About 4:00 PM my wife came in the little cabin we were staying in and said" George, there's something out here you outta see." Just over the other side of the river, about 4-5 hundred yards away was a object hovering maybe 500 feet up. It was large, about 2-3 hundred feet long and oval shaped, something like a football. It was white, opaque house paint white. There seemed to be a lateral line ( like a fish ) from which GOLD and silver flashes emanated every second or two, randomly as far as I could tell. Six adaults and three children witnessed it with no dissent as to above. It stayed there for 2 hours ( my wife differs she says 1/2 hour, she's wrong ) . We had no camera,only a pair of cheap ( cheap-cheap ) binoculars. It didn't seem to magnify with the binoculars ( virtual image? ) It reappeared the next afternoon but was much dimmed, sort of cloud white, and seemed more distant. By that time I was the only one still watching,everybody got bored with it. Didn't see it again.

I only told this experience to one person, no-one gores around telling people since nothing can be done about it one way or the other

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:24 - ID#373284)
EJ, Namaste and a thoughtful gulp and a puff to ya...
the last...printed and tacked to the wall...thanx...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:32 - ID#411163)
Sure seems to be a shortage of physical of late
I posted the other day that coin prices rose even as gold dropped and now the premium on silver 90% bags is rising. Also hearing lots more about having to wait to take delivery. I would appreciate anyone else
posting about the same

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:36 - ID#237264)
With currencies so volatile....Gold has to look good

When Japanese short rates were 0.5% and currencies were burning all around them and the dollar showing signs of a top, I can't phantom why they didn't buy gold with the YEN that didn't already leave Japan.

Just before the surprise 0.25% short rate when the yen was stronger on the dollar, one it would think that getting out of dollar denominated instruments was the thing to do, to protect ones currency gains.

I think that many who earlier bought dollars at less than 100YEN/dollar, were very profitably in another currency months ago, hopefully gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:37 - ID#219363)
Very Simple
There are two very simple arguments going on in the market right now, the bull side, and the bear side. In this example I'll pick on Xerox, the document company. It's a normal company, we've all seen what they make, and get bombarded by commercials all the time.

The bull side reads like this: Xrx traded at 116 1/2 and has since fallen off the steep slope and is now a bargain at 90 7/8. The stock is off 30 percent from it's high - buy, buy, buy! The bear side reads like this: Xrx at 90 7/8, with earnings of 0.45$US per share has a P/E of 206.94 - sell, sell, sell!

The bears have a point, but they've had a point for years now, these P/E numbers are just a big joke, but that hasn't made money for the bears. The bulls have a point, but it's getting shakey as that earnings number drops lower and lower, and that P/E gets higher and higher as a result. Who will win the day ? Hard to say. This thing has been driven by sentiment for a very long time - that's why everyone, absolutely everyone, wants to know what the individual investor plans to do. The bull is dead when regular folks on the street decide they're tired of playing the game and take their chips off the table. I've heard that some professional traders are watching for bullish moves in Gold as a sell signal.

Mike K
(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:37 - ID#153283)
EJ - Clinton parody song
I believe it was Doug from Upland who ( resides over on Free Republic ) wrote it. When he originally posted it, there was a .wav file with the music that made it hysterical.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 00:39 - ID#431200)
McGwire Could Turn Home Runs Into Gold
06:42 p.m Sep 09, 1998 Eastern By Michael Conlon
CHICAGO ( Reuters ) - The crack of the bat that won Mark McGwire baseball's home run record could make him the next Michael Jordan in the multimillion-dollar world of commercial endorsements -- if he wants it.
By some accounts the 34-year-old first baseman of wrestler's build, boyish spirit and camera-ready enthusiasm has for years shunned the commercial arena.
In the middle of a reported three-year, $28.5 million contract, he is already among the sport's more highly paid players.
But McGwire's 62nd home run Tuesday night -- by which he bested by one Roger Maris's 37-year-old record for the most home runs in a season -- was a multimillion-dollar shot.
How big? ``A lot,'' said Jack Trout, president of Trout & Associates, a marketing strategy company in Greenwich, Conn.
``He's getting unbelievable publicity. And he's got the kid, and he's kissing everybody, and his smile. This is like Hollywood,'' Trout said.
``We finally have a sequel to ( basketball star ) Michael Jordan. He's got the personality, the capability, the stardom around him,'' Trout added. ``There has not been anybody on the landscape who has the potential of becoming another Jordan, but in McGwire you have the opportunity.''
His past distance from commercial endorsements, he added, may simply have been a function of waiting for the right moment to cash in.
But Jim Andrews, publisher of the Chicago-based IEG Endorsement Insider newsletter, remains to be convinced how far McGwire will go as a pitchman.
To date ``he has not done a lot,'' he said. ``He has a small deal with Nike but has not really appeared in ads, broadcast or print for them. He has received some equipment and apparel from them but has not really been involved.''
What happens next depends on McGwire. ``Some people think this guy could be the next Jordan, but my gut feeling tells me he's not going to do $30 million or $40 million a year ( in endorsements, as Jordan does ) ,'' Andrews said.
``I don't know that McGwire has the desire to do that -- to be out there representing 10 different companies. He seems to be a low-key guy,'' he added.
But there are companies that would think nothing of paying the new home run king a million dollars a crack to do a commercial for them, Andrews said.
At General Mills Inc. headquarters in Minneapolis ( on ) Wednesday there was already a buzz in the air, but the company wasn't saying if the slugger would wind up with his own Wheaties cereal box cover.
McGwire is currently sharing a ``power hitters'' Wheaties box with several other players.
``It's the only thing people here are talking about,'' said company spokesman Tom Johnson. But appearing on a Wheaties box, he said, results in far less remuneration for the sports figure involved than people might think. Johnson said the tradition and honor counts for much more.
McGwire has already been appearing with Chicago Cubs star Sammy Sosa, his closest pursuer in the home run race, in a MasterCard International spot that derives from the bank card's official sponsorship of Major League Baseball.
The focus of the spots has been on the season home run record being chased and not on any individual player.
``We're looking at our next options but we don't have anything planned,'' a MasterCard spokesman said.
McGwire already has ties to Rawlings Sporting Goods Co., which lists him as an ``advisory staff member,'' and has put his endorsement to the ``MacAttack'' and ``Mac25'' youth bats.
Rawlings would not disclose its financial arrangement with McGwire but said its relationship with him dates back to 1987 and that they plan ``a whole series of commemorative products'' between now and Christmas.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:03 - ID#284255)
Transpower test shows up Y2K faults

Avid chatter:
oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:08PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
zz7: If this thing goes right on down thru last wks low now, we're gonna be
in a situation where the 'relief rally' will be of bull market
propportions." )

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:16PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
by a lot of measures, the markdt is the most oversold in 60 years. The
present slide SHOULD find a bottom for the big rally. I dont mean to be
harsh, but I dont know how anyone could have believed that last Tuesday was
the start of a "V" move back to new highs. This damage is massive. It will
take much time to repair it, once it finds a bottom, IMO.

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:18PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
wd: A rally that retraces 2/3 of a 450 handle drop is a 300 point rally. We
aint never had a bull move THAT big.

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:45PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
Anybody who thinks there is ANY chance Slick will quit, ought to be watching
him on CNN now.

neurotrade . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:48PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
oleman.. your right on...he is good

dixie . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:48PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
oleman -- who let him cross the border into Florida? Man is just plain sick!

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:50PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
He said that all the time he was Gov of Arkansas, we were in that "terrible
recession of the '80's". He's not only good, hes also pathological. He
really does think that whatever he says is true.

neurotrade . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:51PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
oleman..send him up here to Canada..we'll vote for him

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:53PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
He said 250,000 people had tried to buy a gun and been denied under the
Brady Law, because they were criminals. NOBODY has been charged and jailed
by Butch Reno. A quarter of a million people violated the law he loves so
much, and he didnt put a single one of them in jail. Now, really, how many
criminals are dumb enough to stand in a gun store and fill out those papers,
knowing its gonna be checked?

oleman . . Wed, Sep 9, 8:55PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
That nose gets bigger and redder with every line of coke he snorts.

PH in LA
(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:03 - ID#225408)
Dumb, dumber and dumbest...more shame and degradation in the jihad.
In case anyone has not yet guessed the identity of our friend Realistic, I submit as a working hypothesis that he is just another personality of RJ/Jujube.

You know, the three of you are beginning to look dumber and dumber.

One moment RJ, the great repository of information who "sometimes just freaks himself out with how much he actually knows about so many things" goads Farfel about his comment about a substitute for Platinum being possible, with a long erudite list of questions about elements, substitutes, legal trivia and inane comments about medieval alchemy changing lead into gold, etc. With a chuckle, Farfel astutely points out that at one time, a locomotive without coal was equally unthinkable. As a matter of fact, the technology exists today to eliminate the catalytic converter. EV-1, the electric car. Didn't any of you three stop long enough to think of that?

Letting Farfel make you look stupid! Shame on all three of you!

There is something else the three of you might just consider keeping in mind.

Facts are not knowledge.

You might be able to "freak yourself out with how much you actually know about so many things." Just don't be surprised if it doesn't have the same effect on the rest of us. In fact, I'm beginning to freak out thinking about all the things you obviously know nothing whatsoever about.

Your long confusing list of identities reminds me of a T-shirt I once saw. In large letters it said:


It's starting to seem like it might be easier on several levels if we all just got us one of those shirts.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:09 - ID#219363)
Very Simple - 2
But I think if I hear that a company w/ a P/E of 20 or higher is a bargain one more time, I'm gonna puke. If corporate profits really are going to slow down, then the price of the stock MUST fall in dramatic fashion ( even assuming sentiment stays bullish ) for the P/E's to remain at their current levels. In the last example, imagine that XRX's earnings per share dropped to 30 cents down from 45. For the stock to remain at the same P/E, the price of the stock would have to drop to 60, down from 90, half of it's 120 high. If the economy even hints at slowing down, now is your last chance to get out in my very humble opinion. Figure in a day of reckoning for investor sentiment, a day when they'll no longer put up with these P/E numbers, and you've got an exponential decline. Some might call it a crash. It's all very simple.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:10 - ID#284255)
J Stack
This is how the current psychology appears to us... the so-called
"buy-on-dip" investors have likely used up most of their cash reserves.
Overall, investors would LIKE to believe the worst is over. They would LIKE
to give the market every benefit of doubt. BUT they'd also LIKE NOT to be
left behind as a sucker if the next guy makes a bolt for the exit. That's
why the next week or two are critical from a time standpoint... it's why
DJIA 7500 is critical from a support standpoint.

We continue to hold both Japan and Gold stock/fund positions. But we are
nervous that we may yet be forced to exit these positions in a "meltdown"
scenario... of which we are NOT out of the woods yet. IF you are holding
larger than a 5% allocation to Japan or an 8-10% position in gold, we urge
you to reduce those positions after this recent rally. Japan's reduction of
their interbank lending rate today sent the Dollar back into a near-term
rally... and could put some pressure on both the Yen and gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:10 - ID#153110)
@Donald @Puetz @Johan Crash Model
Donald, great post. Credit to Puetz for alerting us first. I think he is going to get his crash prediction vindicated.

@Johan Having unlimited credit and using it are two different matters. Congress has blinked. Bank initiated tightening of lines of credit means the Wizard is blinking.

In what will the deleveraging unwind: heed D.A.'s words: everything that is long US and short gold, because everything else is underwater.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:16 - ID#220183)
Aussie Gold: "Stock of the Week"
Anyone had a look at this site yet?? Any comments?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:33 - ID#17077)
@He May Not Be an Expert on Stagflation...
...but this poster poses some pretty good questions?



Date: Wed Sep 09 1998 18:08
James ( Voyeur Professor@There are some really strange things happening in all the ) ID#252150:
Copyright  1998 James/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
mkts, but especially in the currency mkts. The biggest debtor Nation is trying to tell the biggest creditor Nation
how to run their financial mkts. By listening to & obeying orders from RR & AG the Japanese have pretty well
destroyed their economy. Could their action today be in retaliation? I have no idea, but have no doubt that the
Japanese have the means at their disposal to destroy the U.S. economy. Could the financial equivalent of
Hiroshima/Nagasaki be about ready to explode the U.S. mkts?

I feel that all these mkts are extremely dangerous for the small player.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:40 - ID#17077)
@JAMES...actually, I would add one other concept.... your shrewd questions...

The Japanese can certainly create problems in the global economic markets...but nothing compared to what China could do through a simple substantive devaluation of the Yuan.

China has the ultimate H-Bomb in terms of creating global economic havoc.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 01:43 - ID#17077)
@TYOUNG...come back and visit sometime...
...we need you back here to drink beer WITHOUT permission.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:02 - ID#257148)
Aragorn III

Yes I *am* setting up shop selling kiwi gold coins. All such transactions are protected by NZ's Privacy laws. I am first taking a holiday in Stralia, visiting some of the wineries and gold fields of Victoria: Sovereign Hill, Ballarat and the site of the Eureka Stockade. When I return I shall hang up my shingle and advertise all contact and settlement details on the Kitco Classified board. I hope that I can supply gold to all who ask.

Apologise for my too cryptic post. My reference to TED is to a long-time poster@kitco who is building his paradise home on Swans Island Maine, and not the TED Spread.

I think that it is appropriate that, if Klinton is found guilty of the charges against him that he faces the punishment ordered by your laws. He already has punished himself and shall live forever with the consequences of his actions. His behaviour has tarred the American people with a undeserved shame in the eyes of the world. Whatever you as a people do, you must somehow rectify yourselves.

To many people of the world, the worst punishment is exile, cutting-off from friends and family.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:10 - ID#252286)
Okay..... Fine with me... you call the tune and I'll dance to it

Hey F*Puetz, you asked:

"What am I...a surrogate punching bag"

No. You are the primary punching bag and my all time favorite.
Just letting you know where you stand in the scheme of things.

You will continue this, wont you? It is an idiots choice. The equation adds up to zero if you stop, and less than zero should you continue. You think I am fooling about the web sight? You think I am fooling about the hackers? You think your ugly words will not follow and haunt you wherever you go? You think you are anonymous? Before long youll be beating that beautiful wife of yours as the pressure builds.

It is sad to see one self destruct, but when they richly deserve it, like our fine murdering president, one can only nod with grim satisfaction.

Im nodding.

We will now take this to golden eagle, okay?

Im having fun with this, how bout you?

PS to PH
Im done talking to you for all time. Your choice of company is appalling and I judge you greatly on your defense of this worm. You are now a non entity. Look back and see how you twisted my words. You have no honesty and therefor you have no integrity. I do not associate with people of your cut. Your anger is over something else entirely - and I know what it is, and I had nothing to do with it. So peddle your trash elsewhere, and feel free to attack me with impunity, for I will not respond, other than to add the equal pressure to F*Puetz. Every time you slap at me, I will slap at him twice. You bring this crap to K1 and I will deal with it in another entirely creative way that is bound to get murmurs of amazement and approval from the collected masses there.

You are a shrill whining complainer with very bad judgment in people. I wish you all the happiness with this lamebrained ass. Any credibility you may have had, is dissolved in a roiling sea of farfel pus. Enjoy it, and post away. F*Puetz will feel the brunt.

It is sad, because you are a talented communicator. You just have nothing to say that interests me in the slightest. When RJ tried to engage you in conversations about the market, you just kept going back the F*bag of crap. I get paid for writing, so one could say this is an extension of my job. Whats in it for you? You will be remembered alongside farfel for all time. I can think of maybe 5 or 6 billion people on this planet I would want my name next to, none of them are the Windbag of Beverly Hills ( he lies about that also ) Too bad, just when I was beginning to like you.

Let me know when you want me to verbally slap around F*Puetz again, I got five posts already written, and am working on the one for golden eagle. This is not about justice, or fairness. This is righteous vengeance, and I will extract my virtual pound of F*Puetz flesh for every insult he ever hurled and me or my friends. This is the eleventh commandment. This is a Jihad.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:12 - ID#252286)

I am all posters everywhere. Never was a forum, just me.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:22 - ID#210420)

I concure...strong $ tends to pressure gold down... If the judicial com. votes to rec. impeachment the global financial meltdown will have come ashore in America...lookout below...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:31 - ID#252286)

F*spot = PH in LA = TYoung = HenryD = nitwits

They are one and the same. All of them manifestations of the same sick and twisted mind of the Great F*crap. The egos run thick in this fellows ( girls? ) veins and they seem to be on a deliberate attempt to disrupt this forum and prevent anybody from actually talking about the markets. They just want to scream and yell their petty whinings, bereft of facts, twist words into pretzels and becoming liars in the process.

Their propaganda will not work on better minds than theirs.

Jihad fighters unite! This unholy quad will be exposed for what it is. It no longer fools us. The FarPHoungD entity is on a deliberate misinformation cam[pain regarding gold, platinum, palladium, and silver. It does this to further its own private agenda. It is using this forum to spread lies and half truths. The FarPHoungD thing knows nothing of the markets. To hide this fact, it continues to attack good and decent posters on K1 from this damp and dark cellar. It lies and we see through its lies. Never will I stop prosecuting the hell out of those folks who look us in the eye and lie to us.

There is no forgiveness.

To the death

This is a Jihad



(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:36 - ID#252286)
Still no answers

The following question, posed by F*Puetz, is akin to the alchemists dream of turning lead into gold. Not only is he an airhead when it comes to these markets, he now wants to go back to the 9th century and create magic with Merlyn. To this end, he writes of PGMs:

"What if tomorrow a new substitute is discovered that replaces the need for these metals?"

Firstly, is he suggesting that we add to the table of elements? Has he discovered a new and exotic atom? He is a wonder, is he not? We will call this particle, the F*lump particle.

Some questions come to mind:

Could you please give an overview of the catalytic properties of platinum and palladium, and then describe another substance that has these same or similar properties? What are the catalytic properties of PGMs? If these is a substitute, it would be nice to know what you want that substitute to do, would it not? Also, how much platinum or palladium goes into a car? What would the cost savings be if the laws were changed to do away with these catalytic converters? How may these laws be changed? Are there international treaties that would stand in the way of changing these laws? Could congress change these laws on their own? What he been the effect of the use of PGM catalysts on the quality of air of the last two decades?

Just a few questions - which you dodge like a bum dodges a bath - and you continue a deliberate misinformation campaign against some metals because you cannot answer the most basic questions of what you speak and are trying to cover your incredible ignorance with bombast and bluster. Since your theories are easily refuted by readily available facts, figures, and 2000 years of human history, each and every time you make one of your nonsense posts, you add weight to the great F*Puetz Lie that will follow you wherever you go.

Ask yourself what you have to gain by this. Then ask your self what you have to loose.

If you think about this question, you will see the win column holds a zero. What could you possibly gain from this? Bigger ego? Its too big for this earth to begin with. Now ask yourself what you have to loose, as a band of maniacal hell bent for revenge hackers cyber-stalks you where ever you go and exposes you for the fraud you are. I know people that like that sort of thing and would follow you wherever you go in cyberspace just to publish your collected list of lamebrained boners. These people do this because they think it is fun to do that sort of thing. Not at all what I would do, but I know folks who would. Just like you know the mob and Al Gore. I am surprised though, a man or your stature with no claims to be aquatinted with the rat bastard child molesting women hating murdering lying piece of crap president we currently have?

Think again about THE question. If you answer in other than, "I wish this to stop now", then you truly are a fool, and like your "on the knees" buddy Al Gore and his murdering boss, your ego is just too large to let you do anything but destroy yourself. I truly pity you, not just for who and what you are ( for I would not change places with that narrow rut mind for all the gold in the solar system ) but for the continued embarrassment you will suffer daily. The worst punishment of all would be to have to wake up as you everyday. If faced with that, I could not go on.

As children, we all had that experience when we reach for something hot and burned our fingers. We did not repeat that mistake too often before we decided not to touch those hot things.

Its called learning F*smear, try it. It has worked so well for the rest of us.

You are burning yourself with this simple minded campaign against PGMs.

I am very pleased however, and wish you to keep it up. I can blast you for days, based on what you have written in the last 24 hours. We will make sure that your new audience at golden eagle is aware if your boneheaded calls, plethora of ridiculous mistakes, and generally all around know-nothing when it comes to these markets.

My ISP is offering me a free website. How about the anti-Fspot sight? I could post this URL to everybody. I could e-mail it to the hundreds of Kitco readers who have posted their e-mail addresses ( I collect them ) I could cover the world with your blather. I would not do this. But I know people who would for a bag of Fritos and a six-pack of beer.

You think Im joking, keep it up. Since you are anonymous, and I have no idea who your really are, nothing would be considered slanderous or libelous as we would always stick to provable facts. Ask an attorney about this, I did. If you, however treated real people the same way, you could have a problem. If you denigrate a real person and the company they work for, both or either have the option of digging in those ever so deep pockets you must have to be such a major player and all How deep are those pockets? Even after the losses you took in gold the last two years, I suspect there may be something to be had in the bottom of those pockets. At the very least, the attorneys could relieve you of all that gold you bought when you didnt care and bought more.

This is easier than fish in a barrel. More like an arthritic insect under a microscope.

To finish, an except from Henry the Fifth by a better writer than me:

Bloody constraint; for if you hide the crown
Even in your hearts, there will he rake for it.
Therefore in fierce tempest is he coming,
In thunder and in earthquake, like a Jove,
That if requiring fail, he will compel;
And bids you, in the bowels of the Lord,
Deliver up the crown; and to take mercy
On the poor souls for whom this hungry war
Opens his vasty jaws; and on your head
Turning the widows tears, the orphans cries,
The dead mens blood, the privy maidens groans,
For husbands, fathers, and betrothed lovers,
That shall be swallowed in this controversy.
This is his claim, his threatning, and my message;

I did not write that, Shakespeare did. It just seemed somehow appropriate.

Kisses and hugs




(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:37 - ID#335379)
Hello Private I:
I'm up if you want to talk

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:38 - ID#335379)
PS. Are you on ICQ ?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:38 - ID#252286)
Nope... No answers
How much of worldwide palladium production goes into the manufacture of computers? Are there other electronic devices which are smaller and use more palladium? Looking up palladium in the encyclopedia will not hide your gross stupidity. You sound like a kid in forth grade trying to fake a book report after having not read the book.

Thats it? I ask the most basic questions about the PGM market, and you come back with wifes rings, computers, and COIN DEALERS? Perhaps you truly are as dumb as you appear, and can only sound intelligent on occasion, like the million monkeys with the million typewriters, ultimately everything they produce is more valuable than your empty headed statements.

How about the question of savings to the auto industry? How about the laws and treaties involved in pollution control? How about your goooooooood buddy and personal mentor, the standing aloft log himself, Al Gore? Would he approve of your unilateral removal of the one singe technology responsible for reducing 80% of the pollutants that have been eliminated from our air in the last 15 years?

Rings and computers. You define the market this way.

Pray you dont continue your ways at golden eagle. I hear a peep of this kind of garbage and I will verbally squash you like a bug in front of the world. Try me, and see what happens.

You can never, ever win this, though I would dearly love to see you try. Im just getting warmed up, Im not a bit tired, and I am a thick skulled fellow in any case, so have at it. We will enlist others to join the Jihad. Life will be not fun and the sunshine you lovingly speak of will not shine.

This is the road you have chosen.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:39 - ID#252286)
What was the question?

Doesnt look like F*Puetz got the last one since he still has no answers.
I would never dream of re-posting something this many times unless it served a purpose. So far F*Puetz has posted his irrational take on PGMs a half dozen times, but still no answers to the most basic questions about the foundation of that post. Silly lines about sun and shade will not suffice. He will answer these questions, admit he does not know, or be faced with the same questions forever, and ever, and ever.. ( Jack Nicholson in "The Shining" again )

So again we ask:

He speaks of platinum and palladium
But nary a word on vanadium or radium
Still today, the questions linger
But F*Puetz gives all the finger
What he doesnt know, could fill a stadium

( If you think limericks are easy, this one used all the rhymes for palladium in the entire English language! The "vanadium" was superfluous, but gotta go for them allright? Thank you, Thank You. Next post I will find a rhyme for "Orange" )

F*Puetz wrote:

"In order to get American auto sales going again, then one way of cutting the cost of a car would be recision of the laws that compel a catalytic converter from being part of it".

I asked the below questions regarding his post. He has dodged these questions and cried to Bart. If he cannot answer the most fundamental questions regarding his remarkable leap: that governments would do away with catalytic converter requirements, how are we to believe anything he says?

Do away with auto catalysts: How would this be done? If there are international treaties standing in the way of repealing these laws, this would be a good thing to know when considering whether this outrageous proposition holds water, would it not? If there are laws on the books preventing these other laws from being repealed, these would have to be changed also, would they not? So many questions are raised by F*Puetzs PGM post. He can answer none of them. He just re-posts the same thing again and again as if, absent any facts at all, wishing would make it so.

This is the guy who complains that all sorts of folks are out to screw people over. Yet this worm, because he has an irrational hatred towards, and an obsession with RJ, has now started another misinformation campaign. Like Pegasus before, this cold hearted manipulator peppers this sight with lies and deliberate distortions to further his own agenda. Weve seen his type before, "Buy gold now", while he is placing new shorts. Probably took a couple of short contracts in platinum and is now trying to talk it down. Just like his heroin Hillary Clinton and her short pharmaceuticals when she was bashing the drug companies over costs. Now, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember F*Puetz stating CATEGORICALLY ( LOVE that world Fspot, THANKS! ) that he believes that Clinton is the finest president since Lincoln and that he has a thing for Hillary ( But dont tell his beautiful wife! ) because she just really gets his motor going.

He might have gotten away with his deliberate misinformation campaign, were it not for the way he makes the most fundamental mistakes, and offers no facts to back up his assertion. Thank the Good Lord I am still allowed to exercise my free speech rights and expose this liar and cheat amidst all the smoke and noise and compelling tumult. This slug is nothing but a propagandist and, in the worst sick and twisted style of Joseph Goebbles, F*Puetz has mastered the art of the "Big Lie".

So the questions still remain:

How much platinum or palladium goes into an automobile? What percentage reduction of the total car price will the cessation of use of platinum and palladium bring? What are the alternatives? What are your sources for this information? What would changing these laws entail? How must congress act to repeal these laws? At what point do you see these laws being changed?

I only ask these questions because you offered your "definitive views on Plat and Palladium" to someone here earlier. Since definitive is defined by being the defining nature of that which is being defined, your claim is that you yourself have defined this market. If we are to take your definitive definition, could you please offer some facts to lend support for your views on these metals? I am very eager to learn more. If you do not have the answers to these questions, could you please state publicly that you have trouble with the definition of definitive?



You think catalytic converters would go before air bags, sunroofs, stereos, spare tires, or even leather interiors ( the only way to go ) ? I would love to learn how you came to this conclusion? Your leap to the abolition of platinum and palladium from the auto manufacturing process is a stunning feat indeed and seems to be emotionally made. RJ likes platinum. You are obsessed with RJ. You cant stop talking about him. You now have embarked on another misinformation campaign to dissuade people from looking at platinum. You give bad information, with no facts to back it up, information that people may act on ( like Pegasus ) all because you hate RJ?. This is not responsible. Unless, of course, you do have the answers to these questions. Then I retract this entire post and will make you godfather of my beautiful daughter born by my beautiful wife.

Or will you dodge these like you dodge all the other questions when you are in over your head? If you dont have the answers to these, please let me know, I have about 20 more brought up by the post you made. I am very interested to learn, as I keep saying.

Thanks Again


(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:41 - ID#210420)
Hi Nic

I am about to call it a nite...Had a long Day...lunch with the President today etc... received your mail and I will be in touch soon...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:43 - ID#335379)
Good night private, I too should hit the hay. Go gold................

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:45 - ID#257148)
can anyone spell Herstatt?

PH in LA
(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:50 - ID#225408)
Factoid: US Dollar falls against Spanish Peseta
Since August 26, 1998 the US Dollar has lost 5.6% versus the Spanish Peseta ( 8.6 pesetas ) . It has fallen over one whole peseta in the last 10 hours alone!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:53 - ID#252286)
FarPHoungD = Evil

The FarPHoungD has no answers. This is why it uses so many different names. It is a known fact that nobody on earth likes F*Puetz, the other names it uses is a smoke screen for the BS it piles on us here. It attacks, it prevaricates, it avoids, it obfuscates, and it defends himself under a multiple of different names. This campaign to destroy this site by destroying its credibility is an affront to us all.

Since it does not know the answers to the most basic of question regarding its irresponsible and idiotic claims about the precious metals, to hide the fact that its proclamations are wholly invented out of thin air and have yet to have even one single fact put forward to back up its irresponsible claims. It doesnt care who it hurts, or who may follow its idiotic reasoning, it is just afraid of being wrong.

Grow up FarPHoungD we are on to you. Your multitude of handles shows us clearly who you really are. I can accept the fact that there is at least one boneheaded idiot in the world who is dumber than dirt, but not four, not four this stupid. They can only be one thing: FarPHoungD.

It is evil. It does evil. It spreads evil. It hurts innocent people. It lies. It cares for nothing but itself. It will be dragged into the sun and exposed for the distorting lying lump it is.

Got answers, or more dodges?



(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:55 - ID#333126)
Puetz (the Puetz contrarian indicator)
If the crash does not come this September like you predicted, perhaps you could refrain from predicting anything for next month and we'll then see if the overdue crash comes then. ;- )

don't take me seriously, though; dude. your opinion is appreciated.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 02:57 - ID#210420)
Sharefin Y2k

The loss of a satellite in April zapped 40 million pagers underscred the vulnerability of our latest systems to technological heart attacks. The World-wide CNS/ATM Systems Implemenation Conference held in May in Rio passed a resolution to study the vulnerability of GPS as a sole means of navigation.

"GPS as a sole means of navigation could someday leave aircrews, navigationally speaking, up the creek without a paddle."

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:02 - ID#333126)
Malaysia to cut banks' reserve requirements further to 2%

am i the only one who thinks this is becoming ridiculous?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:02 - ID#333126)
Malaysia to cut banks' reserve requirements further to 2%

am i the only one who thinks this is becoming ridiculous?

Monkee Person
(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:04 - ID#350199)
Will Goldman's wheel-out Ms. Cohen for this one?
Thursday September 10, 1998 | Goldman makes U-turn on yen.


The sharp deterioration in the global economic

environment, in particular the worsening

outlook for the United States economy, has

forced one of the most influential analysts in

the foreign exchange markets into an

"embarrassing" U-turn.

Goldman Sachs chief global foreign exchange

strategist Jim O'Neill said he now took a much

more bullish stance on the yen, restoring the

house's usual outlook which was ditched just

four weeks ago.

The surprise change - which comes as the

Bank of Japan yesterday voted through a

surprise cut in overnight interest rates,

thereby boosting the US dollar - was revealed

in the group's Weekly Analyst publication.

Goldman now predicts that the US economy is

headed for a slowdown, saying it had

downgraded by one percentage point its real

growth estimate for the period from the fourth

quarter of next year to the fourth quarter of

2000, to 1.7 per cent from 2.7 per cent.

It said it also cut its year-to-year consumer

price index forecast by 0.25 percentage point

to 2 to 2.25 per cent, and said that it now

expected an easing in interest rates of up to

100 basis points next year.

The changes meant that Mr O'Neill has been

compelled to change his dollar-yen forecast

back to his original estimates.

"We apologise to readers as we do not like to

change our forecasts very often as we're sure

you appreciate, and it is only four weeks since

we last revised," the Weekly Analyst said.

Having turned bearish on the yen four weeks

ago, predicting the dollar-yen rate would be

at 155 yen in three months, 143 in six months

and 127 in a year, Mr O'Neill now believes the

yen will be much higher at 135 in three

months, 132 in six months, and 127 in a year.

The yen was at 136.58 to the dollar in New

York in late morning yesterday, slipping from

its Tuesday close of 132.25, after the

Japanese central bank cut rates.

Asked why he changed his view in the first

place, Mr O'Neill said: "Because I was stupid .

. . I feel annoyed with myself and a bit

embarrassed, and vindicated."

He said the prime motivation for the change

was because of the banks' change of outlook

on the US economy.

The fresh change puts Goldman in stark

contrast with other analysts.

( SCMP )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:15 - ID#257148)
Pardon my parochialism

Brierley Investments, a corporate raider, assett stripper and darling of the sharemarket for a couple of decades, regarded as the bluest of blue chip New Zealand stocks, with the greatest number of NZ Shareholders of all stocks quoted on the NZSE reports the second largest loss in NZ corporate history. the biggest was the Bank of New Zealand, which was bailed out by the dam gobmint ( socialising the losses ) in 1988.

New Zealand's Brierley
Investments Limited on Thursday reported a NZ$904.3 million
loss, following asset write downs and provisions of NZ$1.19

The bottom-line loss compared with a NZ$311.34 million profit
in the 1997 year.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:29 - ID#257312)

Lots of good info and links on derivatives. A good place to relax and unwind.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:52 - ID#284255)
There may be much more that we are not aware of.
We could all be further "up the creek" than many think.

Cory's earlier comments about heads leaving departments makes one ponder?

There seem to be many conflicting reports as to where we all stand.
I sometimes wonder who are the real denial-heads?

Year2000 seems to be traveling down the same road as the Asian contagian.
Here on Kitco there has been a year, of people posting their thoughts, and others, as to what was coming.
And much denial out on the streets.

Same now, as far as I see it.
There's going to be mountain of refutations and denials over the next year.
As the experts from both side parade their wisdom.

We will have to wait many years to see the full picture.

Regardless of this view
We can all see that it is bigger than most can comprehend.
And there is a shortage of awareness.
A shortage on action.
And a shortage on the real truth.

I would speculate that the worse the problem is
The less truth will be told.
And this effect will increase the closer we get.

And by this we are heading further "up the creek"

Make sure your paddle is made of physical gold.
If not see Nick@C - he's got plenty of spares.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 03:57 - ID#257312)
Derivatives Meeting Sept. 10.

Well look what's going on in Bergenstock, Switzerland. This annual conference on derivatives is being held in the picturesque village of Bergenstock, overlooking Lake Lucerne. Sponsored by the Swiss Futures and Options Association, the participants look like the head water carriers for the eeevil Bilderbergers. A very timely meeting, eh!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:02 - ID#219363)
What's up with the European markets today ? Red everywhere.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:04 - ID#386245)
Malaysia is now , for all practical purposes, a closed market. Makes Oz even more attractive for investment as Asian countries roll up the red carpet and stow it away. How are those MIMs doing? Let's hope the reaction to the big rise is over. Onward and upward.

Auracious. What are you still doing here? I thought you'd be deep into VB country by now.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:08 - ID#329186)
PrivateInvestor(Sharefin Y2k) ID 2104420 Navigation
I put the question of GPS to a 747 capt friend a month back and his reply was "we do noit use GPS the system in use is laser and non date reliant ~ will try to get more info ( also advised friend 747 has 60,000 embeded chips the infor collected here at kitco )

Looking at the awarnes posts perhaps having had Global awarnes day we need to have Global general public awarness day ? )

go gold

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:08 - ID#284255)
Europe on a roll?
Germany down 3.8%

Derivatives can cause massive losses.

Somebody's paying for their vices.

Who's turn next???

Monkee Person
(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:11 - ID#350199)
Sorry about the double-spaces in the report.

Monkee Person
(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:14 - ID#350199)
@Aurator A ways off topic, but...

...would you know anything of the NZ-listed RBD?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:16 - ID#252391)
I'm getting lost . . can't tell up from down.
So many cross currents going on I can't tell what's bullish or bearish for what.

I guess the DOW will be driven by the Clinton thing in the very short term. If there is a fight to retain his presidency then I suppose that will be bearish for stocks bullish for metals. I'm lost on the dollar, its weaker than it was but the yen seems to have found a new range around 135-136 though it should go to 150 but big names are not quite so sure.

The PT and PD quotes here at Kitco seem all screwed up.

Perhaps we are at the point where the volitility in everything makes fundlementals senseless in the short term.

Go to the charts... they tell all....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:18 - ID#185448)
Aggregation sucks
Stockmarkets are rational. At least, if you take into account the calculation of every individual investor.

BCs escapades are his own private thingy. But does anybody really find that Monica is a beaut??

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:19 - ID#386245)
G'day sharefin
Mate, speaking of golden paddles.
Do you remember the post from a few months ago wherein a ship foundered and sank off the US west coast. It was carrying passengers returning from the gold rush ( don't remember if it was California or Klondyke ) . Anyhow, this fellow would not abandon his gold as the ship went down. He went down with it while everyone else ( goldless ) floated to the surface.

I kinda liked that story. There is a message there somewhere.

cheers, Nick@Waterwings-R-Us

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:24 - ID#257148)
this un?

"Lately in a wreck of a Californian ship, one of the passengers fastened a belt about him with two hundred pounds of gold in it , with which he was found afterward at the bottom. Now, as he was sinking --- had he the gold? or had the gold him?"
John Ruskin 1860

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:25 - ID#386245)
If Monica were on her knees in front of you, tell me you would ask her to shine your shoes.

BTW--when is this pre-Euro selling stuff going to end, so gold can go up??

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:27 - ID#386245)
Dang it, Auracious
You are good!!!!
Ever thought of opening an 'Info Retrieval Service'. You could make heap-big squid, mate.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:31 - ID#185448)
Today is day of issue of a new austrian gold-coin from austrian mint-serial "Fates of the house of Habsburg" ( not far** ) face value 1000,-- Austrian Schilling. Showing empress Sissy, who lost her life after a knife-attack, and who is now one of the best known austrian marketing-vehicles since the Trapp-family.

Now aurator: Can you buy a coffee-cup with the profile of Gabriel Byrne printed on it ??

Interesting that ( not only Austrian! ) gobmints issue coins like mad in national currencies, when EURO is around the corner.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:32 - ID#329186)
Fred@Vienna ( ID185445) No beaut
Monica is no beaut IMHO fat legs similar to hillary's that is unless the pics are distorted BJ would be in for quatity as upposed to quality but
one mans' medicine etc.........
go gold & silver


(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:35 - ID#257312)
Proctor & Gamble Taken Out And Shot

Dropped about 10% yesterday on report that quarterly earnings were below expectations. At least that is the reason given here.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:36 - ID#333126)
g'day Nick@C
Namaste' Nick@C, your conclusion that Malaysia is now a closed market is spot on - no foreign investor will want to put money there when freer markets exist around the region. Mahatdir will be judged by the eventual failure of the overzealous new economic policies he put into place, against all advice from the ( previous, not resigned or sacked ) central bank chiefs and Finance Minister/Deputy PM.

those MIMs are ... well... doing not as good as your big time gold miners. I'm hoping that QNI takeover has some spillover effect ... in the meantime, the threat of sudden stock collapse over in NY means I'm watching those NAB puts more carefully nowadays...

... the scary thing is that, one day, the scare-mongers will be correct ... oh well.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:38 - ID#185448)
No. I always put off my shoes before.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:47 - ID#185448)

as far as food is concerned:
Nutritious value is only one aspect.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:52 - ID#220183)
Aussie Gold: "Stock of the Week"
My apologies for the previous post without the web page address. Here it is

(Thu Sep 10 1998 04:56 - ID#257148)
Info@aurator Coming soon to a ______ near you.

I plead ignorance total of Gabriel Byrne. I am sure that she ( he? ) would strike a noble chiaroscuro pose on a coffee cup, on a pack of margarine, even on a packet of contraceptives?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:06 - ID#284255)
This link has lots of links to GPS info.
Just received it today so haven't browsed as yet.

I have seen articles with reference to GPS and aeroplanes.

Underwater gold detectors - now there's a market.

Did you see the "Prophecy's" show on SBS recently.
Scallion reckons 1/2 of OZ will be going under soon.

Lot's og gold downunder.

Another Millenium Quack!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:12 - ID#153110)
@Something Anybody Can Do
When your local candidates come out to speak and answer questions, have someone with a Bible on hand to administer an oath and a notary public on hand to certify the candidate's declaration. The oath might be of the form "I, John Q. Candidate, do solemnly declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States and of the State of Yourstate that the answers I shall give in Place on Date before the Name of Group are true, correct, and complete to the best of my knowledge and belief." ( This is essentially what the government requires of you when federal 1040's are filed."

Every candidate should then be asked at least these questions:

Is there a Social Security Trust Fund ?
Do Americans hold legal title to the land which they have registered in their name if they paid cash for it ?
Do Americans have legal title to their vehicles ?
Do Americans have legal title to the Federal Reserve Notes in their possession ?
Does the Constitution prohibit a State from making anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt ?
If the money issued by Congress is simply credit, that is to say Federal Reserve Notes, can the National Debt ever be paid off with this money ?
Can a debt ever be paid with a debt ?

Be instructed that the downfall of WJC commenced from the time he answered questions under oath. Hire a court reporter to take down these questions and the candidate's answers.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:14 - ID#257148)
as to half OZ going under soon, he probably is thinking to the America's cup in Feb Y2K and the Australian entry sinking again like last time?

Which reminds me of a sick joke told to me by a sick client: The real difference between our Commonwealth Democracies and the Merkan Republic Democracy is: When *we* greet our leader we only have to kneel on one knee....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:14 - ID#257312)
Yeltsin Nominates Primakov For Prime Minister

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:23 - ID#153110)
The rumor is that Starr's Report reveals Monica only knelt on one knee.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:25 - ID#257148)
Whereupon Klinton said:

"Arise Madam Monica, but not just yet."

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:26 - ID#230376)
@ sharefin...etal.

For any doubters of Why Two Kay ? Gooday from the chilly Midwest. bbl

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:29 - ID#153110)
@aurator Protocol informs us that Emperors and Kings and even elected Maximum Leaders
may make their desires known merely by gesture.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:30 - ID#36829)
I know this is a great site, but we all know of the problems of late with up to date gold prices. Can anyone give me some sites that can give me up to date info.

I have been on the sidelines for well over a year, so I have seen posters come and go and have only very recently posted ( sharefin ) . I do however remember Puetz talking about crazy Dow lows and having an ongoing battle with LGB. I do believe they even had a bet about the level of the Dow in October last year ( Puetz lost ) .

I don't get the opportunity to spend hours on end at this site, but do try to catch up a little bit. Does Puetz still post, I read a post that said he was predicting the Dow @ 2000 by the end of the month ( I don't know if the poster sourced it from somewhere else ) .

It's had trying to keep up on this forum, with differet timezones.

Nick@C are you still keen on RSG.

Any help with helpful sites would be appreciated.

Anybody from America who reads this tonight my time, I take my hat off to you for your commitment.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:31 - ID#257148)
see ya'll later

John Disney
(Thu Sep 10 1998 05:59 - ID#24135)
Kaizer Seuze
Salty ..
Gabriel Byrne played in "Usual Suspects" ..
which if you have not seen then you MUST.
Rent a video TODAY.
And watch out for Kaizer Sueze.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:06 - ID#26793)
Chinese companies and government at odds over use of dollars.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:13 - ID#341189)
Morning Donald, keep the rats on board?
I was just reading the same article you just posted. Looks like China is trying to keep the rats on board.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:14 - ID#26793)
Japanese interest rate move hurts products of other Asian countries

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:16 - ID#26793)
So much for free markets.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:19 - ID#26793)
Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi cuts prime rate to 1.5%

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:26 - ID#26793)
NZ and OZ researchers find gold and silver compounds kill cancer cells

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:27 - ID#341189)
Donald, Free markets
I'm seeing hints all over that exchange controls and measures to control capital flows across borders will be the favored solution to world financial panic. If I can see it, then, big money can see it and will take action to place their money which will ramp up the time table.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:30 - ID#29048)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:31 - ID#26793)
U.S. dollar at 10 month low on Clinton news and stock market worries.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:40 - ID#26793)
Malaysia says it still believes in free markets.......but

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:42 - ID#365216)
to Ersel
Thanks for the food storage article. I, like many others, just recently
( 7 SEPT ) put in my order with Perma-Pak dehydrated foods for a year
supply for one of dehyudrated fruits, vegies, milk, TVPs, wheat, etc.
Priced at around $1500, I don't think you can go wrong. Even if
all is not lost, you have good tasting food that will last for
15+ years if the seals are not broken.

Order now before the masses get wise.

That is all.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:46 - ID#259400)
@Farfel, Jujube, etc. Market Comments
The stock market topped out last April. Not the Dow but the stock market as represented by the Russell 2000 and Value Line. The Dow is the modern day version of the Nifty 50 of the 60's and 70's. Let's call it the Nifty 30. The stock market topped out and started it's decline last April. The Nifty 30 disguised that fact because that is what is reported on CNBC. That decline was in anticipation of the Starr report going to congress and the problems that would cause the President. In other words the news of today was discounted 6 months ago. Judging by the size of the decline the stock market must be anticipating many troubles for the man from Arkansas. The current correction is predicting the future six months down the road. Judging from the size of it it is predicting real big trouble for in the spring. If my gut is correct the rest of this month will be filled with the sound of bleeding bulls screaming as the knife is drawn slowly across his vital parts. By the end of the month the bull will flopping around like a chicken with it's head cut off and singing higher than a 300 lb opera diva. I'm calling for 800 on the SnP 500 and 6000-6200 on the Nifty 30. Their will be a wailing and lamentation across the land not heard since the Pharoah ordered bricks to be made without straw in a misguided cost cutting measure. The gloom and doom will be so thick you will need a Ginzu knife to cut it. At that point in time my friends you will see a once in a lifetime miracle. You will witness, right here in the good old US of A, the Mother Of All Rallys. The
degutted and denutted Bull will rise up out of the blood and guts in the streets and start the wildest ride ever seen in modern times. I'm talking a 40% run up by the time the great Turkey day arrives. I figure 320 points UP on the SnP and 2400 points UP on the Nifty 30. This will be the rally that will be written about in the text books for 100 years into the future. We are living in interesting times indeed. Gold will fall to unheard of lows during this raging bull's run. All over America the
emergency rooms will be filled to overflowing with goldbugs getting their hearts jump started. The consumption of Bombay Sapphire Gin and Tequila will skyrocket during this time frame. The damage to countless livers will be beyond calculation. At this point the Great Raging Bull will die. Literally die. One minute he will be running and raging and the next he will just fall over dead. The stock market will crash starting somewhere around Turkey day and by the time Santa pays his visit we will be testing the old lows. Gold will rise up and start it's long, slow, years long
march up to $1000 an oz. This will be the most exciting four months in the entire history of American investing. Fortunes will be made. Fortunes will be lost. And for the wise goldbug the seeds of future fortunes will be planted by the end of October. I say the gold misery will be all over by the end of October. The misery for stocks and bonds is just beginning and will last for years.
Crazy Bill

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:46 - ID#252391)
EZ BELIEVER has supplied some information to this board about SSRIF. I'm still at a bit of a loss as to when the company makes any money. They seem to acquire rights, do feasibility studies, do "development" and then what - somebody comes in and produces the silver. 100 million oz in the ground may be great but its silver in ingots that actually makes money.

Bill Murphy over on SI is calling the opportunity in the junior gold stocks the equivalent to the opportunity he and Venerosso found in Copper in 1987 when that metal was at 59 cents.

I'm ready to believe that a $2 stock can go to $10 but at some point alot of other people have to have some reason to believe value is there, too. Where or rather how does a SSRIF get that valuation when they never produce.???

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:50 - ID#257312)
The Donald Effect

Rumblings of a credit crunch and liquidity crisis brewing in the currency markets, due to derivatives losses. These losses could take down banks, brokerages, and stock markets. This is MUST reading, from Donald's 17:43 post of Wednesday September 09, 1998.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 06:56 - ID#29048)
WSJ- Inflation debate
September 10, 1998

Offbeat Price Indexes Whisper The I-Word, and Consumers Agree


By the most widely used measures, inflation is benign and prices are subdued or even falling. But it's the less-publicized indexes that are giving inflation-hawks a little pause.

Just take a look at consumer prices. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which compiles the closely watched consumer-price index, inflation was running at just 1.7% during the 12 months ended in July.

But the Cleveland Federal Reserve, which compiles a consumer-price index of its own, says its so-called median CPI was up 2.8% over year-earlier levels in July.

No one, of course, suggests that the median CPI is signaling that inflation is about to spiral out of control. Indeed, by just about every measure, prices are extremely well-behaved, especially for an economy clipping along on its seventh year of growth. On Wall Street, plunging commodity prices have prompted more worry about deflation, steadily falling prices, than inflation.

And it is clear from recent comments by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan that the Fed no longer sees an outbreak of inflation as its primary near-term worry, partly because the deteriorating global economy makes it less likely that the U.S. economy will overheat.

But some economists aren't convinced. They note that the less-publicized price indicators, the kind economists start looking at when they get an inkling that things are too good to last, suggest that the costs of items are accelerating more quickly than the Bureau of Labor Statistics' CPI would indicate and taking a bigger bite out of consumers' pocketbooks.

Pricier Perms

And many are starting to notice. Mary Hall, a real-estate broker in King of Prussia, Pa., sees higher prices everywhere. She is paying $120 for a perm and color at a hair salon, up from about $85 a year ago. Makeup has gone up, underwear is more expensive, and the restaurants she frequents have gotten pricier. "There have been some big price increases," Ms. Hall says.

And you can see that in the Cleveland Fed's median CPI. Economist Michael Bryan, who heads the research team that produces the index, says his index and the bureau's CPI used to track very closely. He believes big declines in the price of oil and other commodities have skewed the bureau's index on the low side.

To avoid that problem, Mr. Bryan's group eliminates products that have unusually high price changes in a given month ( lately, tobacco, fruit and personal services on the upside and fuel, children's clothes and jewelry on the downside ) . Mr. Bryan then calculates an index based on the price changes of products and services left in the middle, or median.

Lone Vote for Higher Rates

The growing gap between the bureau's index and the median CPI may help to explain why Cleveland Fed President Jerry Jordan was the lone voter for higher interest rates in July, when the 11 members of the Federal Open Market Committee met. Mr. Jordan was among those who felt the Fed needed to raise interest rates to snuff out incipient signs of inflation, according to a summary of the deliberations. Instead, the Fed left the target for the federal-funds rate, at which banks lend to each other overnight, at 5.5%. It is unknown whether Mr. Jordan has since changed his stance.

Still, other hard-core inflation-watchers are beginning to pay attention to the gap. Subscribers to the Cleveland Fed's monthly inflation report are growing and there are thousands of hits on its Web site.

Scott Brown, chief economist at Raymond James & Associates, a St. Petersburg, Fla., brokerage house, says the Cleveland Fed's inflation measure, by throwing out the outliers, provides a truer picture of the inflationary environment. "There can be a lot of volatility from month to month in the government's figures, even when you throw out food and energy," he says.

Alex Patelis, an economist for Goldman Sachs in New York, has been watching the median CPI closely in recent months as well. He believes the median CPI of today is the likely inflation rate of a year from now. "The median is an anchor of where inflation will be in the medium term. We should pay more attention to it," he says.

Another reason why the government's CPI may understate inflation is that it is heavily weighted toward the goods sector, where much of the slowdown in prices in the past several years has occurred, even though

services represent roughly two-thirds of consumer spending. So while prices for rarely purchased big-ticket items such as computers have taken a tumble, the costs of auto repair, child care and school tuition are rising rapidly.

Productivity gains and low commodity prices have allowed manufacturers to reduce, or at least hold down, prices for their goods. But productivity gains have been elusive in the service sector. Donald Ratajczak, director

of the economic forecasting center at Georgia State University, says the Labor Department's estimates on service inflation do "seem to be out of whack, because you hear people complaining a lot about airline-ticket

prices and housing prices."

'Price Deflator'

Some analysts say plunging computer prices may be masking a more serious problem with overall inflation. Consider, for example, the government's "price deflator," a very broad inflation gauge that measures prices paid by consumers, businesses and the government. When computer prices are included, the price deflator was up less than 1% during the second quarter of 1998 when compared with a year earlier. But without computer prices, the deflator shot up more than 3%.

David Seiders, chief economist for the National Association of Home Builders in Washington, is keeping an eye on a house-price index released quarterly by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight. That

index reports a 5.2% jump in housing prices in the second quarter compared with a year earlier. The increase isn't picked up in the government's CPI, which calculates shelter costs based on rents. The shelter component of the CPI was up just 2.4% in the secondquarter from a year earlier.

Another sign of some pricing pressure is in the National Automobile Dealers Association's measure of average new-car retail prices. It shot up to $23,450 in the first six months of the year from $22,250 during the same period in 1997, a 5.4% rise.

The Statistics Bureau's CPI isn't totally off, of course. It has picked up some hints of pricing pressure. Aside from the huge acceleration in vegetables and fruit, child care, legal services, hospital services, vehicle maintenance, tobacco and prescription drugs also have experienced large price gains.

"This is something people are beginning to look at and think about," says Kathryn Kobe, economist for Joel Popkin & Co. in Washington. "When Asia settles down, inflation is going to be looked at a lot more closely."

URL for this Article: subscription required

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:09 - ID#329186)
Request for local info
With all the past comments on the 1933 US gold confiscation saga and the general concern anyone know if this has happend in the past 2 hundred years in
the UK

thanks in advance


(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:20 - ID#365216)
Is Clintler capable of suicide?
I think that as his personal situation starts to deteriorate rapidly,
Clintler may become a potential suicide candidate. Maybe the Secret
Service should post a suicide watch on him. Wouldn't it be ironic
since many other "suicides" have happened to "associates" of his?

Remember, you heard it here first.

That is all.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:21 - ID#45173)
Asia mixed but mostly down, Europe all red


Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:25 - ID#347267)
Partial Repeat of previous post:

Date: Thu Aug 27 1998 20:25
Mtn Bear ( SE ) ( Comments ) ID#347267:
Copyright  1998 Mtn Bear ( SE ) /Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

"----JTF, after several months of bear market ( that is right, my friends, I said months ) the story of the derivitive influence on this market collapse will start to emerge.

This is only the beginning. The bubble had some small leaks starting in July; now several of them have become a larger vent. This is a huge bubble and it will take time; we will see sharp rallies which will give all the sheeple renewed hope, only to have that hope dashed again and again. I went through the bear in the '70s which was very mild compared to what I believe this will be. And still it seemed to last a very long
time. We will return to proper valuations and PE's of 5 to 15 as a norm and dividend yields which will entice a new class of value investor. IMVHO, there is plenty of time to get properly positioned to profit from the coming bear; just watch for those sharp up spike days, and find yourself some suitable ( no earnings ) stocks that have been flying
high, and short the S**T out of 'em or buy more BEARX or RYURX.

Gold: Watch for the bottoming patterns to emerge in the miners and confirm before buying. --- "

Well, I was wrong about how long it would take to expose the danger of the derivative influences. BTW, today just be the beginning of THE CRASH. Good luck to all; Mtn Bear

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:27 - ID#287312)
General: I've never heard of a coward doing himself end.
Never happen GI.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:34 - ID#26350)
Silver Standard is a hold at this point in time,
a junior resource exploration company. First Silver Reserve ( FSR ) is a producing company with an operating Mexican mine currently in production. Silver Standard's main objective is to explore for and discover resources worldwide. As I understand the process, then the companies like Teck or other major producers would buy out or JV the development of mines as the resources become proven reserves subsequent to confirmed ( ie by objective contracted ) bankable feasibility studies. I've heard that in many cases well reputed geologists are free-lancing to give second opinions on the feasibility of mining sites. Making a mine, developing production and actually bringing the stuff up out of the ground to take it to market is a whole cycle that goes beyond the discovery stages of exploration. The companies that are out and about exploring have great upside potential if they are well managed with adequate funding, such as Silver Standard is in my opinion, have more upside leverage than the major mining companies. Depending on world events and the future of all the markets as a whole I think Silver Standard will be a buy again in the near future. Best Regards.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:35 - ID#347267)
Anyone else see the Head and Shoulders top in December silver? ls ( left shouder ) 18 Dec time frame; head 4 Feb; rs 5 Apr; broke Neckline 16 May Recov to NL 26 July --- Target 3.90 -4.00 !!!! Comments Please. Word that Buffett sold Silver could do this IMHO.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:43 - ID#28472)
pissed off
got back from court yesterday ,from my application for an extrodinary licence ( seem's i was a bad boy afew months ago got caught drink driving i9';m not trying to playdown what i have done but! ) one off the condition's for my licence is that i do not consume any alcohol at any time during the next 9 month's this was my first driving conviction ever i am really pissed off iam now rebeling by getting quite lubricated .................foo6tnote if the government want's your gold it shall have you'r gold .................GO GOLD ........

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:44 - ID#37463)
General & Clinton
I agree, Clinton is no samuri. No suicide watch is necessary.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:44 - ID#45173)
Risk analysis rocket scientists
This posting on one of the groups on one of the derivatives-related sites posted thoughtfully by Auric.

systemic risk and Y2K

From: Nick Gogerty
Affiliation: International Monitoring
Date: 08 Sep 1998
Time: 10:48:22


Is any one trying to quantify y2k risk. I know one off event. the potential for
illiquidity could be quite high however if parties begin using $'s spent relative to
bank size as an approximation for fixes. The Japanese statement to the BIS was
pathetic on this issue. The potential illiquidity posed by Y2K could be significant if
it were to be recognized as systemic. Any thoughts.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:45 - ID#29048)
yen @ 134.89
gold @ 286
silver @ 4.98


Bloomberg tv showing spot prices for gold & silver a little higher even than those posted on yahoo.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:50 - ID#252391)
To Lakshmi re SSRIF
Thanks for the brief on SSRIF - I'm beginnig to understand more.
What do you make of today's press release from the ocmpany - I suppose it is a positive.??? I also assume you still feel silver has some more downside left in it.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:52 - ID#238422)
Primakov for the Prime Minister
Not good, not good...He is the Commie + personal friend
of Saddam...In general, it sucks...Time for the U.S. to
start worrying for real...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:53 - ID#26793)
Bankers see higher risk in Japan since rate cut yesterday

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:54 - ID#37463)
Impeachment apparently foregone conclusion

This writing sees Clinton as gone and soon. Markets will reflect that today--paper down, gold up.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 07:58 - ID#45173)
@oris & Carl
oris, the details of just what Yeltsin's new pick represents to the US will run through the rumor mill today on the street. That news, Europe's and Asia's performance today, Clinton's loss of support from Demos, spells down day for the US markets, is my safe guess.

Carl, "big money can see it and will take action to place their money which will ramp up the time table." Does this mean they will attempt to bring their money home?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:03 - ID#28472)
sorry! will try harder in the future !

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:05 - ID#224363)
Haven't posted in a while but the action looks interesting
I would be interested in hearing what RJ and DA think about the recent activity in equitites, currencies and PMs.

Seems to me that a lot of money is moving long on everything but the US dollar ( or is this just short positions unwinding ) . I am absolutely amazed at how quickly the FX market has swung around. Will we see the same thing with gold ?

As am aside, the local paper here carried a front page story with the title 'Has Gold Lost its Lustre'. Now if that isn't a contrarian indicator that says buy gold, I don't know what is.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:07 - ID#354133)
AZAU, TYoung, General
General - we should be so lucky!

AZAU, TYoung - have I got a story to tell you. Send me an e-mail

Steve in TO
(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:14 - ID#209265)
BOJ puts on another big effort to inflate . . .
The BOJ is getting desperate- they're trying to inflate and their interest rates leave them no room to manoeuvre. They made the last possible drop in interest rates that can have any credibility in the markets- from this point the next step is 0% interest rates. In the popular mind this would represent "free money" and destroy any credibility the economy has left. To the unsophisticated it will imply that the Yen is a worthless currency, to the more sophiticated it will signal that the battle against deflation has been lost- and the downward spiral will begin.

If this latest effort doesn't bring deflation under control- look out! Japan will sink into a 1930's-style depression and drag SE Asia down with it.

One advantage for Gold & Silver will be that as people in Japan lose faith in their currency, and as the US$ starts to decline on the exchange markets- there will be only one form of money for them to turn to!

Here's an article from the FT on the latest BOJ moves:

The Bank of Japan is to loosen monetary policy for the first time in three years in an effort to prevent the world's second-largest
economy from sliding into a deflationary spiral.

The overnight call rate - the interest rate at which funds are lent in the money markets - will be brought down from around 0.5 per
cent to 0.25 per cent and the money supply expanded.

The decision, announced yesterday, leaves Japanese rates at some of the lowest levels in recent history. Following the
announcement, the yen weakened 4 against the dollar and was trading at around 137 on European markets compared with
around 130.45 earlier in the day in Tokyo.

The move prompted speculation that the US might soon cut rates as part of a broader policy of global easing. Last weekend, Kiichi
Miyazawa, Japan's finance minister, met Robert Rubin, US Treasury secretary to discuss Japan's economy and the recent global
financial turmoil.

However, Masaru Hayami, Bank of Japan governor, insisted: "There have been no discussions with overseas authorities on this
decision. We took the decision based purely on the present condition of Japan."

Separately, the Bank's policy board issued a statement saying the measure had been taken "to ensure that the economy does not
worsen further and to prevent the economy from falling into a deflationary spiral".

The government is due to release figures for gross domestic product in the second quarter of this calendar-year tomorrow. Officials
have warned that these are likely to show a further, sharp decline in activity.

A survey by the Finance Ministry published yesterday showed that capital expenditure fell 10.6 per cent in the second quarter of
the year, compared with the same period last year. The overnight call rate differs from the official discount rate in that the former
is set by the market but the latter is announced by the Bank of Japan.

The Bank of Japan can influence the call rate by the amount of money it provides to the money markets.

The Bank tries to "set" the overnight rate each day by deciding how much liquidity to pump into the markets. In the last three
years, it has set this rate slightly below 0.5 per cent.

The decision to reduce the overnight call rate could pave the way for a cut in the official discount rate to 0.25 per cent. This has
been at a record low of 0.5 per cent for almost three years.

Japan's complex system of monetary operations means the overnight call rate is often used by the Bank as the primary tool for
influencing economic activity.

In recent weeks alarm about the health of Japan's financial sector has sometimes pushed this rate up. The Bank has tried to offset
this by providing the market with more funds.

The overnight rate is the level usually used by the corporate sector in determining borrowing costs.

The Financial Times, September 10, 1998

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:15 - ID#30126)
HOW MANY MORE 'I'm sorry' mutterings
will I have to endure before they throw this bum OUT! Saying you're sorry doesn't change the fact that the LAW was broken. To take a line from a Schwartzinager ( sp? ) movie..., "Resign, or be prosecuted." As 'Arnie' handed the revolver ( with ONE round in it ) to the corrupt District Attorney....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:16 - ID#45173)
I got out of the stock market and started buying gold in April back when the DOW was at 9000 after hearing a story on NPR about how the stock market's the only place to make money and gold is dead. When you start hearing stories like that on national non-financial news programs, you know the exact opposite is true. Getting out in April turns out to have been well timed, although I'd have done better to wait until a few weeks ago to buy gold at the very bottom. But if the dollar loses buying power during a recessionary scenario and the US suffers a severe and perverse stagflation event, as I and many here believe, I figure a few dollars in the price of gold ain't gonna make much difference so I don't beat myself up too much about it.

Gold. It's not just for goldbugs anymore.

Steve in TO
(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:27 - ID#209265)
Malaysia continues to shoot itself in the foot . . .
Malaysia imposed currency controls last week. In a country with FX controls gold & silver is the only money people can buy- the Malaysians can't buy US dollars even if they want to. Of course- I wouldn't put it past the Malaysian gov't to try to restrict holdings of gold as well.

They've just stabbed derivatives traders in the back- which means that trade will be disrupted to a surprising extent.

Here's another important FT article:

International banks yesterday snubbed Malaysia's last-minute decision to extend yesterday's deadline for them to settle outstanding ringgit contracts, and shut the door firmly on further financial dealings with the country.

Late on Tuesday night the Malaysian central bank suddenly reversed last week's decision that contracts in its currency had to be settled by yesterday, saying: "All outstanding contracts entered into prior to 1300 hours on September 1, 1998 can be settled on their respective maturity dates."

But currency dealers said investors were angry at Malaysia for abruptly withdrawing the ringgit from international financial markets to "trap" them into settling outstanding positions at the new official rate of M$3.80 to the US dollar. "People worked around the clock to meet it [yesterday's deadline]. Chits have been torn up. You can't just uncancel it," said Patricia Lui, foreign exchange analyst at Technical Data Thomson Asia, in Singapore, the ringgit's largest offshore market.

The international banks had agreed among themselves to settle the M$25bn ( US$6.6bn ) in outstanding contracts by "netting off" obligations and converting the difference into US dollars.

Analysts suspect Malaysia hoped with its 11th-hour change of heart to undermine the international banks' agreement to settle at M$4.00, the ringgit trading rate when Malaysia announced sweeping currency controls. When Malaysia imposed controls last week, it counted on repatriation of those funds by yesterday's deadline to shore up a liquidity shortage in its overextended banking system.

Bankers said Malaysia would have difficulty convincing international banks to do any business with it, particularly at M$3.80 when, given the political and economic uncertainty created over the past week, the ringgit would probably be trading closer to M$5 to the US dollar, or even M$6. "People have no interest in sitting around in this currency," said a dealer in Singapore. "People are just happy to walk out of Malaysia and never deal with them again."

Manu Bhaskaran, managing director of S.G. Securities in Singapore, said the end to offshore trade in Malaysia's currency and shares would be "a major drag" on Singapore's financial and business sector, which counts for 28 per cent of gross domestic product.

"Malaysia's drastic measures compound the deteriorating global environment for Singapore," Mr Manu said. "The island could lose out in the worsening bilateral relations with Malaysia and, longer-term, have its role as regional nodal point for trade and financial flows undermined."

But analysts said Singapore had elevated its position as a regional financial centre by liberalising while even Hong Kong became interventionist. "When recovery comes, Singapore will emerge as the undisputed financial centre of the region," said Kostas Panagiotou, senior economist at Kim Eng Securities.

The Financial Times, September 10, 1998

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:31 - ID#410194)
Don't forget to let us know why you called it a bull trap if as you said last night, a bull trap is the opposite of a bear trap. ( And was it a trap at all anyway? )

Realistic ( @farfel ) ID#410194:
Copyright  1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
If a bull trap is the opposite of a bear trap, then why did you call the following a bull trap? Didn't the market shot upwards for many weeks to come?

It wasn't a trap then? Why did you say it was?


Date: Fri Mar 06 1998 18:08
All the "citizens" that bought in October bought back in today...

IBM insiders dumped stock in last half hour of trade.

Remember, IBM saved the market in the last October debacle...maybe not this time.

F*, the Unpronounceable.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:35 - ID#45173)
Steve in TO
Currency controls are the wave of the future, as Carl's pointed out. A move by governments to protect their nation's economies from currency speculators is heightening the sense of fear in world markets, as is the Japanese desperate interest rate drop. It's the equivalent of a stock market suspending trading. It sends the signal to the market that things are out of control.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:38 - ID#252391)
Trotfesser's 7:54 reference a great read on Clinton
Clinton will be gone before we know it - his passage from office will be much swifter than people anticipate.

While markets are declining world wide on derivative and Russian leadership problems America is leaderless.

I look for massive rally in equities when Clinton resigns which will prbably occur about the same time as the Fed drops interest rates.

Look out above, look out below.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:52 - ID#242325)
This very good forecaster sees new lows by Friday, 9/18

for 9/10/98

Current Position: Rydex Ursa fund since 8/12/98
Purchase NAV: 10.24 ( split adjusted )
Current NAV as of 9/8/98 close: 11.00

Return on current trade: 7.42%

Shepler Market Timer Returns since 4/8/98 inception: 19.07%
Buy and Hold S&P 500 Index Returns since 4/8/98: -8.60%

Market Commentary:

To quote from yesterday's Shepler Market Timer:

"Our cycle analysis calls for a short-term top within the 2 trading
days. Since Wednesdays tend to produce short-term turning points, we
would ideally expect this rally to come to an end Wednesday... this is a
bear market rally, and the lion's share of the gains have already been
made in Tuesday's melt-up. We definitely don't want to chase this move
at this point."

Rallies in bear markets are typically short and sharp. This last one
was no exception. This is precisely the reason that they are not worth
trying to chase. For the thrid time in the last week a buy signal from
our proprietary buy/sell indicator was terminated after only one day.
This type of behavior for this indicator is yet another sure sign that
we are in the midst of a bear market. Luckily for our subscribers, we
anticipated this sort of action in our indicators, and chose to ignore
these buy signals. If we had not, our subscribers would have been badly
whipsawed by recent market action. This type of whipsawing is precisely
what has been happening to bullishly biased market technicians. They
have been murdered buying the dips, even though all their "reliable"
indicators have given buy signals. By correctly forecasting this bear
market, we have kept Shepler Market Timer subscriers one step ahead, and
have avoided the pitfall of trying to catch false bottoms. To be sure,
there will be rallies coming in this bear market that will last more
than a 1-2 days, but in our opinion, we are not there yet.
It looks like our forecast turning point high arrived right on
schedule, as the S&P 500 index turned downward after a brief rally high
of 1027.72 in early morning trade. A drop back below our earlier
forecasted resistance at 1020 SPX provided the signal that the rally was
failing. Our next forecasted turning point calls for a low on 9/15 +/-
2 trading days. We think a dramatic decline is in store for the next
week, and that we will see the 9/1 lows broken to the downside during
this timeframe. We wven hold out the possibility of another mini-crash
type decline between now and options expiration Friday 9/18.
Market internals have seen a rally peak and are now headed lower.
Decliners beat Advancers by better than 2 to 1 Wednesday, at 2144 to 908
issues. New Lows increased to 201 issues while new highs shrank to 20
issues. However, these numbers are not nearly as bad as what we had seen
on previous declines, and it is likely that we will see some bullish
divergences if new lows are acheived next week. If the new lows are seen
in the major indices, but are not confirmed by new lows in the A-D line,
or the new high / new lows index, we would then have a buy set-up for a
more sustainable rally ( read: more than 1-2 days ) . It would still be a
bear market rally, but would likely be a much stronger one, and one that
we would likely try to trade. Remember the old adage "buy on Rosh
Hashanah, sell on Yom Kippur". Well we may have a perfect set-up for
such a trade with a major low next week. But we are getting ahead of
ourselves. First we need the move to new lows, which we think got
underway Wednesday.
Short-term sentiment readings did not tell us much Wednesday. The
OEX put/call ratio was neutral at 1.14, and the Rydex ratio is still
high by historical ( bull-market ) standards at 153%. The most bearish
indication for thhe coming week's trading is the fact that open interest
in OEX calls is so muc higher than the open interest in puts. Typically,
an expiration will result in a the biggest loss possible for the
majority of option buyers. This time the majority of option buyers are
call buyers. Thus we would expect potentially severe downward price
action between now and 9/18.
So, we remain in our profitable Ursa trade, looking for a potential
tradeable low sometime next week at prices far below present levels. As
far as this Thursday's trade, we think it has the potential to be a very
big down day. Fasten your seat belts, we could be in for a wild ride.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 08:52 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Japan: Just goes to show what happens when loss of confidence in a 'system' happens; Hard to defy the physics of pushing on a string.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:01 - ID#255151)
Starr Wars Update

Report that Bruce Lindsey, one of Clinton's main goons, will be indicted today or tomorrow. I think Starr is going to nail the whole damn pack, including Hildebeast. Starr's team has a score to settle with that woman, Ms. Rodham. I think they will do so with great effectiveness and enthusiasm.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:03 - ID#288399)
General/Food vs. Gold
After placing an order 3 months ago, I watched with some satisfaction as the UPS guy dump 6 months of stored food in front of my garage ( food which I ordered back in June '98 ) . One cannot eat gold or necessarily barter it for food. I've packed up the 300 pounds and put it in the back of my car, it's on the way over to our new house today. My husband thinks I'm a total nut for buying stored food, but I'd rather have stored food than a fistful of fiat currency any day.

The Hatt
(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:04 - ID#374348)
Phase Two Of Bear Market About To Begin!!!!!!
Phase one which we have been in for weeks is DENIAL!
Phase two is FEAR and PANIC!!!
Phase three is DEPRESSION and DISBELIEF!!!!!
COHEN AND CNBC are about to eat crow!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:05 - ID#212197)
Stabilizing World Currency and Stock Markets
Excerpt from an open letter of The DeHaan Foundation
to Mr. Rubin and Mr. Greenspan:

"Muriel Siebert has suggested on CBNC that the SEC needs to regulate the margin requirements on foreign currency futures. At present there are no margin regulations and a typical currency future can allow $65 of leverage, or more, for every $1 invested. For example, a hedge fund with $1 million invested could make $32 million on a 50% drop in a currency futures. The chance of great progit fuels great speculation. .... Within days millions and ultimately billions pour into shorting futures contracts. The reserves of an individual coutry are quickly diminished. The much larger global hedge funds can move from country to country and overwhelm the static defenses of an individual country." End of quote.

I think The DeHaan Foundation of Florida makes a very good point. But they should address the defense proposals which they bring in the following part of their open letter to the smaller countries which become prey of the big speculators very easily. This multiplier 1:65 or ( more powerfull ) can ruin each of these smaller countries very easily.

These countries have to break out from the terms and conditions ( free currency market blah-blah ) set by the IMF, World Bank et al.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:10 - ID#252286)
Congratulations FarPHoungD

You alone succeeded in causing the price of PGMs to go up. Your misinformation campaign is so transparent, people have flocked to the magic metals like never before in history. Not the effect you were looking for, is it?

In you honor, we will call this the "The Great FarPHoungD PGM Rally"





(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:10 - ID#258427)
Anybody look at SnP futures lately...
down 17 points...which translates to a dow of -150 or better ( I believe ) ...looks like a real downer on Wall Street.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:10 - ID#230376)
@ large calibre friend....

If you have time to read http://rampages.onramp/~page.htm I'd appreciate your opinion.

The Hatt
(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:13 - ID#374348)
While all eyes are on Clinton and Russia it looks like Latin America is about to take it on the chin today! There are so many shoes about to drop around the world it is hard to imagine that a history making market meltdown can be avoided!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:13 - ID#338228)
Dec Gold just jumped...
up $4.60 to $292.00

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:14 - ID#243166)
SPOT AT US$292.00!!!! GO GOLD

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:15 - ID#230376)
oris...I'm sorry....

the url should read

The Hatt
(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:16 - ID#374348)
Correction Brazil down 7% !
This could get very ugly! Gold begins to rally!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:17 - ID#375108)
Old Gold
Your posts of the Shepler market forecasts are much appreciated.

Let's see now: ( 1 ) Clinton in real hot water this time; ( 2 ) troubles and questions about Latin American economies, ( 3 ) a possible lowering of US interest rates by Greenie ( though not a sure bet ) ; ( 4 ) markets whipsawing investors; ( 5 ) gold near a 19 year low; ( 6 ) CRB bottoming ( ??? ) ; ( 7 ) Oldman ( and Hepcat too?? ) more positive about the outlook for gold... Who knows what the barbarous relic is going to do, but right now glad to have picked up a few more gold stock shares on yesterday's dip...

Anyone heard recently from Ted out on Swan's Island?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:19 - ID#230376)
@ oris... I'll get it right if it kills me....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:19 - ID#286249)
Mexican treasury bill rates jump sharplyjumped at auction yesterday to record the highest weekly rate increase since 1995
Benchmark 28-day Cetes rose by 9.78 percentage points to 36.94 while 91-day Cetes increased to 40.61 percent

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:26 - ID#243166)

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:30 - ID#212323)
The heavy losses you see in Europe right now are all Smoke and Mirrors...
and Flames.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:30 - ID#258427)
Bart Kitner...calling Bart
Could you please get the frames version to update, PLEASE. TIA

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:31 - ID#342376)
Don't forget backup Kitco site if we have trouble getting on here. You may have to register for a free trial if your not a member of Silicon Investor.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:32 - ID#335190)
The Powers that be EH! @ Canada testing the water, as lackey's of USofA/Israel???
September 10, 1998

Israel sets China scholars programme

SHANGHAI, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - Israel has taken a major step in expanding its academic ties with China with its biggest programme yet for Chinese scholars.

China was a strong supporter of more radical Mideast states in its early years after the communist revolution in 1949.

But growing prosperity from economic reforms begun in 1978 pushed it towards more moderate foreign policy, allowing a boost in ties with Israel.

The programme at Bar-Ilan is financed by a grant from American businessman Fred Kort.

September 10, 1998

China calls on Canada to call off Manley's Taiwan trip

BEIJING ( AP ) -- China urged Canada today to cancel a visit to rival Taiwan by a government minister to avoid harming Chinese-Canadian relations.

"At present, Sino-Canadian relations have developed smoothly," Zhu said at a twice-weekly media briefing. He added that with that in mind Ottawa should "adopt concrete measures to cancel this visit to Taiwan." Canada's ties with Taiwan should be limited to unofficial business and trade "so as to ensure the sound and stable development of relations between China and Canada," Zhu said.

The two sides split when Mao Tse-tung's Communists forced Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists from the mainland in 1949.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:32 - ID#213265)
@the scene
And a FINE day it is in the metals!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:35 - ID#280339)
Gold Bull begins massive move up!!!
There has never been a more compelling time to buy gold!!

1 ) The worlds reserve currency will be trashed by Slimey Willie's exit.

2 ) Japan the #2 economy is bankrupt and printing money.

3 ) European banks are being trashed by Russian exposure.

4 ) Latin America is getting ready to go down the tubes.

5 ) Stock markets around the world are crashing.

6 ) There are mountains of gold shorts from CB leasing program

7 ) Gold recently broke lows going back almost twenty years

Be aggressive!! Buy gold! Buy gold stocks! Buy gold futures!

Buy gold now!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:36 - ID#410194)
New all-tine highs again in the bond market as I write this, that's 11 full points ( !!! ) above where it was around March 2nd when you went down on your knees to beg your friends not to invest in it.

Can you tell us what are their reactions?


Date: Tue Mar 03 1998 22:03

I warned many friends to avoid this Wall Street propagandistic fact, I went down on my knees with some of them and BEGGED THEM not to place any monies in bonds. I categorically predicted the current bearish scenario now unfolding in the bond market; it will only exacerbate as the TORRENT of newly printed money ( printed in the aftermath of the October crash in order to maintain liquidity ) begins to hammer bonds even further over the short-term..

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:44 - ID#280214)
Shlomo - in several months recipients of Food shipments will be envied
I plan on ordering another few hundred pounds in the next few days.
It likely will not arrive until mid-winter but that is fine.
By next year such shipments will be viewed with envy and jealosy.
Receiving such large amounts late next year by UPS, freight
or just wheeling them out of the grocery store by the case lots
will not be wise since it will be a red-flag announcement
to the neighborhood of where to go when hard times hit.
Gold and Silver, on the other hand, come in little non-descript
packages that nobody would notice.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:49 - ID#243166)
DOW Tuesday's gains.....GOING, GOING, ----------GOOOOOOONE

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:51 - ID#255151)
XAU Up 8%

Looks like Gold stocks are following Gold, rather than the overall stock market.^XAU&d=t

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:52 - ID#317193)
Brother oris...looks like a good day to pick up things previously ordered...
PMSP...was rewarded.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:53 - ID#372262)

Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:54 - ID#317247)
At this rate we will get Down 900 by noon. 3000 by OCTOBER 1 Hmmmm?
Good call! GO GOLD

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:54 - ID#372262)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 09:56 - ID#288232)

globex...gains going, going, gone......

jyen...climbing again.....paper going down...

chaos and flux.....they's amux us all...
the operators of the ferry that moves
peopleo from the buy side of the river
to the sell side have abondoned their
posts.....a logger-head of historical
magnitude has developed.....

the rhythm of life----cycles-----is
inexorable....and deadly when one is un-prepared.....
the riders of the paper-tiger have feasted
at every juncture....they prepare for the
next meal....poor, poor peopleo....they don't
know....they are the next meal.

don't hesitate to look your family in the eye and
ask the question....'have i done all i can do....for them?'
'they don't know....' they will know..

blame it on y2k...klinton....religous fanatics...
de-coupling of paper curriencies from pm's...
weather....irrational exuberance....etc...etc... matters not...

chaos and flux....they ride with the silver surfer and
the one from the oceans deep.....and they come for you
and yours....

i'm buying gold calls--340 to 400 strike--ju'99
crude calls---20 to 25 strike---dec'99
these puppies are very cheap....and fun
to watch expire!........ALLABOARD


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:00 - ID#372262)
DUCK AND COVER!!!!! Not necessarily in that order! Heh..heh..heh!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:01 - ID#288399)
CNBC just admitted that bonds could get hurt if "international investors sour on US investments". Notice no one mentioned that these "investors" might turn to gold, or that spot gold is up today. Since they have that money wheel thing where they have to show commodities, it won't be long before the public sees GOLD going up while PAPER is tanking. Go gold. It's over for the sitting ducks. "Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly". Proverbs 16:22

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:01 - ID#386245)
Gold futures up $5.80
Gold bears singing soprano as they get their shorts squeezed.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:01 - ID#28472)
dow down 260!!
xau up +4.59

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:01 - ID#28472)
dow down 260!!
xau up +4.59

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:01 - ID#28472)
dow down 260!!
xau at +4.59

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:04 - ID#317193)
Fear...not here yet ...
But time marches on...we watch this, well, we watch and wait.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:05 - ID#290172)
Have just heard a RUMOR, from deep in an overseas warren

Meltdown contingency plans look to a BIS accounting solution... Mmmmmm

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:07 - ID#183109)
Gold at $350= RANGY up 1800% within 24 months.
Don't miss the boat!!

SYAMA DEC 98 270,000 AT $210

SYAMA HEAP LEACH, mid-1999, 50,000 AT $130

LOULO 140,000 AT $210, 2000

GOLDEN RIDGE 60,000 AT $240?

AND THE HOME RUN FIND FOR RANDGOLD RESOURCESTHAT IS STILL GROWING: MORILA, 200,000 + AT $118 !!! Now with low cost resources of over 2 million ounces, and theyre still drilling. Phase 4 drilling starts next month. Phase 3 added around 900,000 ounces.

Heres my crystal ball" prediction: Within 24 Months, and a gold price of 350, RANGY earns $1.25 per share. Give it a reasonable P/E of 10, and youve got a share price of $12.50 !! A measly 1800%. Place your bet gang. Call me stupid, but I just sold ALL my Durban for more RANGY.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:07 - ID#402148)
Interested in hearing OLDMAN's opinion.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:10 - ID#147201)
SDRer re BIS
It looks like to me that the only possible fix ( ????? ) is an accounting schmear. Buy on the rumor and sell on the news!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:11 - ID#372228)
Gold has broken out!
All major gold stocks have broken out of their 4 month down trend lines and the XAU has gapped open and was up over 5 points!!! Gold itself is up $5.60 and all the technical downtrend lines were tested yesterday and held strong...this is the springboard for gold and gold shares...IMHO, it's time to get into the XAU October calls...this market is about to explode!!! GO GOLD GO!!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:13 - ID#350179)
LGB - this wasn't one of yours I hope.
Ukrainian Rocket Crashes; 12 Satellites Lost

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:14 - ID#43185)
You think today is something
Wait till next Monday when we see the results of a fresh round of GLOBAL margin calls.

This one is hitting when liquidity in the derivatives is already at crises lows.

I think we may begin to suspect that the Fed really will lower rates before long.

Hmmmmnnnnn, I wonder how the bond market is doing.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:16 - ID#37463)
5-4-3-2-1 We have liftoff.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:21 - ID#258427)
MONEX showing spot up $6.50
Bart shows up 5.50...? go gold

Gusto Oro
(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:21 - ID#430260)

Oh that the $300 level would be taken out this week... --Alan

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:21 - ID#350179)
Hazarding a guess
Dow off 350 by close?
My trendlines point to a 2 to 4% downdraft. FWIW

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:22 - ID#317193)
But will it be pushing on a string?


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:24 - ID#372262)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:25 - ID#229207)
Brazil Bovespa drops 10.01 pct, trade is halted
SAO PAULO, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - Brazil's Bovespa index
was down 10.01 percent at 1107 local/1407 GMT Thursday,
triggering a circuit-breaker that halted trading for 30minutes.
The Bovespa tumbled to 5,089 amid a panic over capital
flight sparked by a series of big dollar outflows.
Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:26 - ID#229207)
The operative word in the previous post is


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:30 - ID#402148)
Small stocks suxh as RYO GRERF GSR
All holdeing steady and are MUCH MUCH cheaper than gold calls right now.

Just an observation, not a promotion.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:30 - ID#335190)
U.S. current account deficit soared 21 % @ Case layoff 5 % & earnings off 25 % Russian effect???
September 10, 1998

U.S. current account gap hits record in Q2

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The U.S. current account deficit, the broadest measure of the nation's trade performance, soared 21 percent to a record $56.5 billion during the April-June second quarter this year as Asia's economic woes sapped exports, the Commerce Department said on Thursday.

In addition to a swelling deficit on trade in goods with the rest of the world, the United States posted a higher shortfall on investment income in the second quarter as more money was paid to foreigners on their U.S. investments.

September 9, 1998

Case Corp. to cut 1,000 jobs

RACINE, Wis. ( AP ) -- Case Corp., a manufacturer of farm and construction equipment, plans to cut 1,000 jobs from its worldwide work force by the end of the year.

The company is not expecting to complete its orders for Russia and other countries in that region because of the continuing devaluation of the ruble.

Case said it anticipates earnings for 1998 to be down about 25 per cent from last year.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:31 - ID#342376)
Where's Rhody?
I'm betting on gold lease rates rising. CB's will realize that the game is up! Les Jeux sont faits.........

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:32 - ID#229207)
Repost: Panic
Panic n 1: a sudden overpowering fright; esp: a sudden unreasoning terror often accompanied by mass flight 2: a sudden widespread fright concerning financial affairs and resulting in a depression in values caused by violent measures for protection of securites or other property 3 slang: something very funny



(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:32 - ID#429270)
An exclusive wish for happy trading...
I would like to wish all metal traders throughout the world an exclusive
and lengthy period of happy trading! May your dreams come true, too!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:33 - ID#240331)
G R E A A A T.......Get ready with moving stop orders to catch up these great moves on Gold and Dow : 296 ? 300 ? 7400 ? 6000 ?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:35 - ID#386245)
do re mi fa so la ti doooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Fat lady warming up!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:35 - ID#213265)
@the scene
EJ -- Panic: When someone yells fire in a theatre!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:38 - ID#317193)
Panic...hardly...barely showing any fear... and wait...


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:38 - ID#252391)
Hopefull like your picks
GSR GRERF got them both - cheaper than calls, hopefully as explosive.

I think the Dow bears better be careful; if we hold here we could get a surprise rally.....

...but never mind me I'm just a worried bear

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:39 - ID#339212)
...From a small farm in Nebraska...

to the GOLD MINES of ALASKA...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:40 - ID#197328)
Obviously a Clinton supporter

In my county located in Western New York State the battleaxes at the local NOW chapter recently won the right for women to appear barechested in public. Including on the street. Or anywhere.

Our local Gannett-run liberal rag ( I suppose that is redundant ) ran a letter to the editor from a mother whose young daughter spotted an incredible sight. Seems they were at an outdoor family-oriented festival when the little girl tugged on her mom's sleeve and pointed incredulously at something. Turned out to be one of the afore-mentioned battleaxes parading barechested down the street carrying a cross on her back.

Had to be a Clinton supporter. Had to be.

Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:40 - ID#317247)
Buy Gold for delivery, Trade Silver and Platinum!
Your clients must be very pleased with you today. Whats up? Did Russia run out of PGM?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:40 - ID#317193)
thats...PMSP...patience my son, patience

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:41 - ID#342376)
The ultimate irony is that the main reason people looked the other way about Clinton wrongdoings ( ie the economy ) could be affected the most by his wrongdoings.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:42 - ID#225283)
Senior V.P. from Prudential

Coming up next on GETV/cnbc screaming,
"BUY GOLD, BUY GOLD, Buy Gold Everyone!!!
THe sky is falling for real"

WEll its about time that the talking heads spoon feed the obvious to the mundless masses.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:43 - ID#335190)
Global Marketplace @ Volvo @ Halifax @ Stunned workers
September 10, 1998

Volvo to close Halifax plant

HALIFAX ( CP ) -- Volvo Canada is shutting down its only North American car-assembly plant, throwing 223 people out of work by Christmas. "We appreciate the efforts of you and your colleagues in your dedicated work at Volvo," vice-president Curt Germundsson told stunned employees Wednesday at the Halifax plant.

"Unfortunately, your efforts alone do not outweigh the global business factors."

Many of the local workers have been with the Swedish automaker for more than 20 years, some since the plant opened in 1963.

But Sonnenberg said that makes no difference. "This isn't about concessions, it's really about a global marketplace," he said.

Steve in FL
(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:44 - ID#213335)
Plop! Plop! Fizz! Fizz! OH! What a relief it is!!!!!!
Break 300...break 300...break 300...OM...OM...OM...break 300...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:44 - ID#225283)
Looks like this should confirm the bull in Gold

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:47 - ID#288399)
CNBC ( Mark Haines ) that there was "no panic selling" this morning; that the selling was "orderly". Now, that statement alone makes me panic, as it is always smart to panic in advance, and avoid the rush later, right?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:47 - ID#386245)
LGB will not be a happy camper
Loral down 5 to 13 and 1/16th as satellites go up in smoke. My commiserations, mate.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:51 - ID#284255)
Have a look here.
You'll find lots of links to the gold price.
Even some back to here.
Beats me which one is right.

Also dozens of links to Y2k sites.

The sites currently under construction.

Keelhaul them with your tupping crayon???

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:52 - ID#269409)
@ Jujube
Re *FwipePhscamscummaggotsludgescatscabbootscrapings

Normally I would have a few points to add...but you've done way to excellent a job here, there's nothing else I can say......but right on dude!


(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:54 - ID#335190)
September 10, 1998

Brazil markets plunge as dollars leave the nation

BRASILIA ( Reuters ) - Brazilian financial markets plunged to new lows in early trading Thursday as a series of emergency measures by the government failed to check massive dollar outflows from Latin America's powerhouse economy.

"If $1 billion a day keeps leaving, the situation will be unsustainable," a trader said. "The Central Bank has to do something."

Net dollar outflows in the first nine days of September totaled an estimated $8.77 billion, already near the $12 billion Brazil lost in all of August, when Russia's devaluation sparked a confidence crisis in emerging markets worldwide.

Last week the Central Bank effectively raised interest rates to 29.75 percent, up from 19 percent, in a bid to keep dollars in the country and restore confidence among investors.

But so far investors have yet to be convinced that Brazil's economy is sustainable.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:56 - ID#300202)
Free Willy Finally Freed Today
What a day ta pick. Even my Franklin Mints have a golden aura today.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:57 - ID#269409)
@ Nick@C...Loral
Thanks Nick.... I indeed am NOT a happy camper at seeing 12 of our birds go down due to failure of one of those damn Russkie launch vehicles! Now what? We have to give all our rocket science secrets to those guy's too???

COurse our own domestic ships have blown up in the past two launches also, Delta's, Atlas's, where's a satellite manufacturer to turn these days?

Luckily, Loral is a small part of my investment holdings, and the only stock I have at the moment ( other than SSC ) , but quite unfortunately I can't protect my funds that are in Loral because they are "company contributions" and locked in to the stock till I quit, retire, or get axed.

Oh least it's "House" money....

Still a major bummer though!

( Great buy at $13.00 a share though! I'm probably going to move some discretionary funds into it now.... market meltdown / DOW bear notwithstanding )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:57 - ID#229207)
Clarification: no panic in the US (yet) but there is in Brazil
 Wall St slumps on Clinton worries, Latam tumbles
NEW YORK, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - Wall Street stocks were
sharply lower Thursday morning on growing concerns that
President Clinton will resign or be impeached.

Banking stocks were particularly hard hit as a sell-off in
Latin American shares snowballed. Brazil's Bovespa index
plunged 10 percent, triggering a circuit-breaker that halted
trading for 30 minutes.

"It's a very nervous market. It is unsettling that in
Washington we have no leadership whatsoever," said Ned Collins,
head of trading at Daiwa Securities America.

Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 10:58 - ID#404312)
ken starr

Let's here it for Mr. Starr
Hip hip hoooooooooooraaaaaaaaaaay

Where will this first move stop, though?
Dec 295, 300, 305?
interesting parallel-the hourly gold chart of the last 8 days looks identical to the daily silver chart of Jul-Sep 1997. If this gold move matches the silver chart, we should approach the 305 area today or tomorrow. . I would the expect a selloff back to the low 290's before the next move higher

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:05 - ID#43185)
Morning rush hour
Looks like the morning rush is over. Now we wait for the afternoon. Stron rebound or crash? I think strong rebound.

1 ) Market decline was on Clinton worries, not on any new unexpected fundamental bad news. By afternoon heads will have cooled and dipsters should arrive.

2 ) Day traders all on the sell side this morning, should be closing out postions this afternoon.

3 ) A sell off would precipitate more hedge fund margin calls at a time when the system cannot withstand much more. The PPT understands this.

So now, back to work. Somebody call me when the afternoon rush begins.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:13 - ID#280339)
Poor Greenspan
He wants to ease but the $ is getting trashed. He talked Japan into easing first but that only helped for a day. No matter what Alan does the
dollar is going DOWn. That can only mean GOLD is going up!!!


Spud Master
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:17 - ID#28586)
@LGB, damn Russkie launch vehicles and gold under the matress....
My dear brother in hypergolics, LGB:

1 ) Lockheed Martin Titan 4: Poof! Kiss $1.5 billion goodbye.

2 ) Boeing Delta 3: Poof! Liss $225 million goodbye.

Now then, what were you saying about sorry Russkie launchers? Didn't you say you wuz ex-rocket-scientist? Are those American birds snuffing it built on your legacy designs?

American Military-Industrial-Complex space vehicles: too expensive, too complex and too late ( EELV ) .

Boeing, Lockheed Martin will have their *sses kicked when the small, focused start-up firms ( Beal Aerospace, Kistler, Roton, Kelly ) start launching satellites cheaply & reliably.

Spud, peeking under the matress...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:17 - ID#147201)
Goolum your 11:05
Key point- the PPT. If they have what it takes, I guess your right. Otherwise- we'll see!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:18 - ID#254321)
House to release Starr's report on net,
perhaps today.

All: I think the constant revelations on the WJC situation will continue to batter the markets for some time. Intermediate/long term Bearish for the markets and the US dollar, and bullish for gold.

Perhaps today's gold rally is due to short covering, but I think the tide has shifted, IMHO.

Will be interesting to see when the US equities bottom as Oldman thinks they will. Might be some time from now, as I don't think the magnitude of the trouble WJC is in has sunk in yet.

If WJC resigns, it will be because of extreme public pressure, not because of any Congressonal act. And -- even that may not remove the pall over the US -- as the investigations will gather momentum for while even after he resigns.

Interesting times -- probably a US equity bear market rather than a crash, as long as the World's financial system remains intact, IMHO. If the US dollar continues to drop, we should expect the commodity indices to solidly bottom, with the obvious bullish effect on gold bullion.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:19 - ID#254321)
Sorry -- in my haste, if forgot the

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:20 - ID#187109)
Kuston....Shoulda used VAFB
were they tryin to save a buck? VAFB recently launched more Iridiums ( but you know that ) .........after a few technical scrubs, w/o a prob.

Globalstar ( part of Loral? ) down 7 bucks ( should have gone the other way ) . Ouch. Damn Russkies. If there were some ICBM's attached things may have been would think.
away.....from bad rooskie offense Oris.

go gold.

day trades are the only way to play these markets nowadays......uh huh. Scary...........

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:21 - ID#17077)
@RJujubeedeedy...I don't understand...
..I like platinum.

I'm a buyer of platinum ( remember: the Valentine's Day bracelet???? ) At these price levels, I may even buy her another Plat present.

Indeedy do!

If platinum goes through the roof ( or at least to the price levels you foresee ) , my wife and I can buy us a nice summer cottage from selling her plat jewelry.. Why would I ever say anything negative about Plat?

I just don't think Plat has much long-term upside if aggregate global industrial demand plummets ( which it is doing ) .

I think it will see 325 before it sees 375.

That's all.

You're fairly smart.

You understand.

Thanks, buddy.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:21 - ID#335190)
September 10, 1998

ADR REPORT - ADRs sag amid Clinton

NEW YORK, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - American Depositary Receipts ( ADRs ) and foreign shares sagged Wednesday amid uncertainty about President Bill Clinton's political future and the financial outlook in Latin America.

"I don't want to be catching this falling knife," a trader said. "Clinton is a cloud over the U.S. situation."

Another said, "It looks terrible. There is not enough volume to say anything is real."

Gold ADRs were stronger as the price of the precious metal rose amid the U.S. political uncertainty. Gold was up $6.80 an ounce to $291.90 in New York.

South Africa's Anglogold Ltd. rose 2-5/16 to 23-1/4, a 12-month high, and Canada's Battle Mountain Gold Co. BMG.N was up 13/16 to 4-5/8.

Both ADRs were among percentage-gain leaders on the New York Stock Exchange.

ADRs allow U.S. trade of foreign shares.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:21 - ID#269409)
@ CLitton...he will NEVER resign
Those who believe Clitton has it within himself to resign or commit suicide, havn't refreshed themselves on their Psych 101 courses recently.

A Sociopathic megelomaniac, NEVER believes he'll truly be caught and pay the consequences of his crimes.

Cllitton and his Herr Goebells sidekick Hillary may come off as "Nice guy's" with their "Let's help the children" and "I care about you" crap..but inside they are pure EVIL in their unbridled quest for totalatarian power.

I hope they truly pay, BOTH of them...for the White house loyal decades long domestic help firings, the similar summary execution of the Travel office staff, the FBI file scandal, the mysterious deaths of practically every associate who :Knew too much", the Lying, stealing cheating, sleazing, scummy giveaway of influence to anyone and everyone foreign or domestic who would help with election fund, the desecration of the White house, the humiliation of the U.S. on the world stage a la Monica/Gennifer/Kathleen/ et al,

and last but not least, shooting 80 million dollar worth of high technology into foreign countries, to blow up tents and drug factories, not to mention innocent bystanders... with NO OTHER REASON but to cover up and obfuscate his other misdeeds.

The worm is a disgrace... even if it costs us economically, in a stock market meltdown/recession etc..... it'll be worth it to see him crash and burn for all time.

But he'll never resign...never. Not this arrogant sociopath.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:22 - ID#187109)
you are cruel buddy.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:29 - ID#17077)
@RJujube...PLATINUM been very good to me.... can you imply that I am anti-plat?

I only wish plat would soar to the heavens. Nothing would make me happier.

But I just don't think it can.

Not in today's faltering global economy.

No, deedyno.

How can you imagine me to be anti-plat? Remember, my wife...and the plat
diamond bracelet?

Now, I would never argue against buying plat as a long-term buy and hold strategy.

But trading it? I don't know about that, RJujubeedeedy.

Unless of course, you wish to short it. Shorting it at these prices might make sense, I suppose.

But, long-term buy and hold....nothing wrong with that.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:30 - ID#229207)
The Even Newer Day Traders are waiting in the wings to take The New Day Traders' money this afternoon, so the market exits near where it is now unless... new revelations in the Clinton case or some other unexpected bad news hits. Then all bets are off.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:32 - ID#269409)
@ Spud...EB
Spud....I think I did say in my message that our own domestic launch vehicles are also...oh never must just skim read the posts anyway.

EB..... Day trades eh? Maybe that'll be my new strategy. I have been buying SSC at 5/8 and selling at 11/16 lately, just churning the same chunk of shares over and over, but with the metals starting to make a move....that strategy may not work for long. Today I HAVE my shares and they're moving up so.......hold on for awhile?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:33 - ID#17077) see, the problem with PLAT is this.... can't use it to buy food in the stores.

You can't pay your rent with plat.

You can't buy your mother a nice pair of shoes with plat.

Nobody accepts it.

You see, you have to sell and convert it into US DOLLARS first.

Then, what you do RJujube, is you take those precious US dollars and you buy goods and services with them.

But, Plat...nobody I know accepts the stuff. NOBODY!

Such is life.




(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:35 - ID#43185)
Read 'em and weep.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:36 - ID#213265)
@the scene
LGB -- Clinton WILL resign! The dems will force him out for the good of the party. Gotta give AlGore sittin' time before the next presidential election if they are to have a chance at all. Gonna be 'hot' enough as it is in the congressional and senate races. Rats are already beating a hasty retreat from the sinking Klintonista ship. NOTE that I did not say that he wants to resign. Bottom line is that he'll be 'asked' very firmly to do so.

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:36 - ID#173262)
Polarbear..... Already on board with you.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:39 - ID#284255)
Avid Chatter
oleman . . Only magnet number my voodoo ( tm ) software ever spits out nowadays is -27.00.: ) in and OUT. bye.

swtrans . . ole i need to have a look at that Vodoo program. maybe there is somethin in it thats making it keep going -27??? better fix it quick, it could cause a global collapse!

oleman . . sw: Said collapse well underway.

oleman . . sell rallies in bears, buy dips in bulls, and count your $$$. Or study hard, learn a bunch of crap and go broke.

swtrans . . mood is dismal at the put cemetary. gravediggers taking down the welcome home banners

pester . . I'm lookin at a temple sp500 elliot chart with a huge drop to 860's cash - could today be the day?

pester . . but it gets worse - projects to under 800 b4 end of sept! Ouch!

mina . . last gold spot on bloomberg 290.85

bigapple . . rothschilds and rep nat bank of new york are trading spot gold at 291, shows it at 283.45, is wrong!

models . .the market needs some viagra, the medical term for it is micoxaphalin.

swtrans . . wonder if the teletubbies are buying into this decline this morning?

oleman . . 2 MORE "RANTABULLS" must fall. then we can buy this thing.: )

swtrans . . im feeling pretty bearish right about now, thats bullish

soup . . mother merrill cut in half from its high.

oleman . . No, dont think it'll hold. I just scalped it for a few on the long side.

oleman . . morning low is in. But may not hold in p.m. Will likely break in near future. But I;m long an a reer buy. I wont let it take more than a couple handles back tho.

oleman . . mkt 'feeling' for a short term bottom, thus the volatility. Should trade the last 7 days range for a week or 2, then spike down for a good bottom for the big rally that lets hum1 escape.: )

mina . . gold tech going to 200 ma 293

models . . they are keeping me busy, but i'll tell them what you said. there's guy on cnbc saying if you are bothered by your losses, maybe you should take some of it out of the market. good advice but a little late, i think.

Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:41 - ID#33184)
Even Rouble getting stronger vs dollar: 12.875

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:44 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Cage Rattler -- You know you got problems when the ruble strengthens against the dollar!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:47 - ID#401460)
Bovespa Index

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:47 - ID#343171)
gold still isn't up enough
To me a $6 jump in these conditions just ain't enough, what
we need here is a healthy $20 ride to get the ball rolling
or a weekly close above $300 on strong volume.

US definitly not in panic mode yet, but when it hits soon there
will be no mistaking it. The herd has just recently looked up
from the grass.

Indictment ( s ) to come to the White House this week ( Drudge )

Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:48 - ID#33184)
Clinton woes = economy slows ?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:51 - ID#335190)
Corporate Globalization @ Deflationary world...Got Gold=Value?
September 9, 1998

Economist warns of deflation

OTTAWA ( CP ) -- The world is locked in deflationary times and investors and policy makers need to be very careful, says the senior economist at Nesbitt Burns.

David Rosenberg warned Wednesday that while the world may not be on the verge of recession -- yet -- financial markets are on very dangerous ground.

"The models and the frameworks that worked so well in the past in terms of predicting economic and financial trends have all but broken down," he said.

"We have entered a deflationary world."

"You can kiss the Hong Kong peg with the U.S. dollar goodbye," he said.

The collapse of the Thai currency is generally acknowledged as the beginning of the financial crisis in Asia even though the devaluation only appeared on Page 16 of the Financial Times of London at the time.

The economies of Brazil, Venezuela and Mexico all warrant close monitoring, he said.

Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:51 - ID#317247)
Did the guy on CNBC just say buy gold for protection of assets? My TV must be broke.
RJ- are your phones lit up this AM?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:54 - ID#387288)

Agree on the Dems and clinton resignation.
It may take a little persuasion unless the "C" word makes its way out onto the airwaves. If serious allegations of COCAINE use are in the report, Clinton won't be there long enough to snort a line.

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:54 - ID#212323)
Working for gold and a more secure future every day...
but am paid with FRN's as green paper and digital entries into an account. No problem--happily use this to pay the monthly expenses, and the remainder is exchanged for the gold. Modern history will show with 20/20 hindsight that some times were better than others to make this exchange. That is, sitting on the FRN's until just the right moment will net you more gold than making the exchange at other times.

Thus far, every day of 1998 can be viewed as one of the right moments in modern history to make the exchange.

Do I buy gold? Technically, "Yes", but philosophically, "No". I *buy* items for daily needs--food, shelter, clothing. I *work* for my future security. Gold is more secure than paper...I *work* for gold.

Single best reason to "work for gold" these days...because you can. Do you find yourself wishing that you could have worked for gold all your life? You can...

got savings?

I can guarantee this: An Ounce of Gold will always be an ounce of gold. Whither go the Dollar? I cannot say.

Information that is known to everyone is worthless.
( ...some thoughts on the eve of my departure... )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:55 - ID#333127)
Nice to see gold going up for a change but I'll wait to commit any more money till I see what DOW and dollar do when AG lowers int rates.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 11:56 - ID#227444)
George Gero of Pru. sec. on CNBC

sez..."The time has come for gold as a
serious HAVEN"

He see gold hitting the magic $300.00

"during the last great depression a kilo of
gold would buy you"a nice popular auto and
the sme is true is the best store of value for such times...

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:00 - ID#229207)
Argentine bourse slides deeper on Brazil, US drops
"There is red ink everywhere," trader Julian Cohen said.

BUENOS AIRES, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - Argentine stocks slid
deeper Thursday in pre-floor electronic trade weighed down by
fears of economic problems in Brazil and a weak Dow.
"There is red ink everywhere," trader Julian Cohen said.
The MerVal index of most traded shares was down
6.97 percent at 323.83 points at 1247 local/1547 GMT, minutes
before the start of floor trading. Volume was slim at 7.5million pesos.
Traders said the biggest worry for the Argentine market was
Brazil, where the Sao Paulo bourse was off 11.37 percent on
concern over the amount of U.S. dollars fleeing the country.
( ( Carlos A. DeJuana, Buenos Aires Newsroom, 541 510-2505, ) ) REUTERS

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:05 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Cage Rattler -- Re: 'Clinton woes = economy slows'; It's been 'raining' for quite some time.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:06 - ID#229207)
Gollum: DOW -220
Not weeping yet. Wind sock still says exit here or lower. Yes, I know it's counter-intuitive.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:12 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Both XAU and HUI up 10.5% today, so far!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:17 - ID#410194)
Date: Thu Sep 10 1998 09:36
Realistic ( @farfel ) ID#410194:
Copyright  1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
New all-tine highs again in the bond market as I write this, that's 11 full points ( !!! ) above where it was around March 2nd when you went down on your knees to beg your friends not to invest in it.

Can you tell us what are their reactions?


Date: Tue Mar 03 1998 22:03

I warned many friends to avoid this Wall Street propagandistic fact, I went down on my knees with some of them and BEGGED THEM not to place any monies in bonds. I categorically predicted the current bearish scenario now unfolding in the bond market; it will only exacerbate as the TORRENT of newly printed money ( printed in the aftermath of the October crash in order to maintain liquidity ) begins to hammer bonds even further over the short-term..

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:24 - ID#212323)
You are entering the field of battle as an unarmed man if you don't read this!
An important excerpt...pretty easy to read between the lines when you remember that there is gold in London... ( think in terms of LBMA )
"London is, after all, Europe's biggest financial center
and all the big European banks have important operations there,"
Gutierrez said. "British supervisors also have more experience
than most with very complicated financial products. More and
better coordination among bank supervisors is a good idea."
..."very complicated financial products"...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...whisperings of gold is what is told, though loud and clear to those who hear.

The whole text may be found here.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:26 - ID#269409)
GoldBugs...why I am one.....
I don't mind putting chips on the table and making big gains and losses. Do it all the time in poker games at Bay 101 in fact. But today has not been a good day for LGB's net siree Bob.

True I've crowed here in the past about 800% gains in the equities market ( before I yanked it all out last summer ) ...true I've tried to be a counterpoint balance at times to some of the "pro" Gold as an investment arguments, which I felt were based on faulty analysis of Gold's true historical performance. ( Over the past 2 decades anyway ) .

But at heart, I remain a GoldBug. Days like today are the reason why. I see 20% of my 401K, locked into Loral stock, drop by 30% in value. ( The rest is in money )

I see the future of my own company hanging in the balance at the whim of launch vehicles built by a country that can't govern themselves, enforce rule of law, or stabilize their currency in any way, or elect a leader who isn't a buffoon....I see our own country with a Buffoon at the helm, who WILL go down, one way or the other....I see the stock market turning truly bearish with dimming prospects for a turn around anytime in the near future....

So tonight, I'll go home and curl up around my bags of Silver coin, little rows of Gold St, Gaudens, handful of Platinum AE's, and a couple stacks o' Maples and Ameican Eagles........ this and a Brandy ( and my beautiful wife and children, and spiritual faith ) will all sustain me through my time of trouble, and I will indeed feel a lot better!

I'll still sleep soundly tonight.... That precious metal sitting in my home safe, helps a bit. DIversity in our investment works.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:37 - ID#240171)
Please note Brazil has broken 5000...ouch!! Now keep your eye on Mexico...
Brazil Bovespa Index ^BVSP 12:34PM 4971 -684 -12.10% Chart , News
Canada TSE 300 Composite ^TSE 12:34PM 5760.10 -111.68 -1.90% Chart
Chile IGPA ^IGPA 12:34PM 3018.98 -98.02 -3.14% Chart , News
Mexico IPC Index ^MXX 12:33PM 2956.050 -211.210 -6.67% Chart , News
Peru Lima General ^IGRA 12:34PM 1296.73 -31.06 -2.34% Chart , News
United States S&P 500 ^SPX 12:14PM 982.99 -23.21 -2.31% Chart
Venezuela IBC ^IBC 12:31PM 2726.46 -94.58 -3.35% Chart , News

(Thu Sep 10 1998 12:47 - ID#284255)
"The Household Cyclopedia"
I have downloaded the book onto my website.
Where you can download it at your discretion.

To activate
Create a folder and unzip 'Cyclopedia' into it.
Create a folder inside this folder and call it "images" - note the small 'i'
Unzip the two files into this folder.

Now you have an active working copy.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:05 - ID#317193)
Houston...we got a problem...fear
just showed up. Hold on to your ***


Voyeur Professor
(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:09 - ID#231101)
Investment caution

While I think gold's prospects have improved considerably, I think gold investors should realize that key resistance sits at around $302 where upward, rather than downward momemtum, begins. We are getting close, and one might begin to increase gold holdings today, but we still need technical confirmation of the gold bull and we haven't got that yet, only a run-up that deflationary forces could wipe-out. Nevertheless, we can all share some credit for believing in gold's potential and, hopefully, its recovery.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:15 - ID#119358)
back in 'der buying this a.m. ohmy,,,,,,15m mo' rangito y 15m mo' AZC....let 'er ride, Pard!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:17 - ID#284255)
Lots of solar lunacy???
ACTIVE REGIONS, INCLUDING 8323, 8326, 8328, 8329, AND 8331. REGION

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:17 - ID#173262)
Glad I don't own any HM puts!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:31 - ID#284255)
Buy more gold!!!
Upon review of all information, testimonies and guidance available and having
scrutinized contingency plans, guides and orders produced thus far, and in
consideration of the benchmarks set forth by the agencies internal failures as
described, NATCA perceives the overall condition of the National Airspace
System to be catastrophic, and clearly threatens the economic, social and
strategic health of this nation.

Apart from computers controlling "doomsday" apparatus; there are no 20
systems more essential to the well-being of our society than those installed
at the 20 FAA Air Traffic Centers. At this time none of the mission-critical
Radar or Communication systems in use at FAA Air Traffic Facilities have been
proven to be Year 2000 compliant with independent verification, and the
agency is making great effort to install new equipment and systems having
similar problems. In addition, the FAA has considerable exposure to service
interruptions even concerning systems for which they have no direct control,
i.e., telecommunication networks, electrical power grid interruptions,
infrastructure providers.

Read this and wonder????

(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:38 - ID#230244)
During a recent publicity outing, Hillary sneaked off to visit a fortune teller of some local repute.
In a dark and hazy room, peering into a crystal ball, the mystic delivered grave news.
"There's no easy way to say this, so I'll just be blunt: Prepare yourself to be a widow. Your husband will die a violent and horrible death this year."

Visibly shaken Hillary stared at the woman's lined face, then a the single flickering candle, then down at her hands.

She took a few deep breaths to compsose herself. She simply had to know.
She met the fortune teller's gaze, steadied her voice, and askedd her the question.


Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:56 - ID#33184)
South Africa cuts repo rate by 3%
According to the website of the South African Reserve Bank, the repo rate seems to have been cut by 3%.


EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 13:59 - ID#173262)
Glad I didn't buy any HM puts.... As if that were a thought.

Looks like the ascending triangle double flopped. How much money is riding on Jeil's ( Jail's ) deadly accurate projections.

Where is the evidence of PM's down
with the overall market. I look back at
some 8/28/98 technical posts and want
to throw-up. During the fallout of the DOW
last week PM's had the best week in recent
memory. The PM strength in the midst of this
selloff tells a story much bigger than the
double dip, tripple top, backward upside down

There is a lesson to be illustrated here for all the
sheep lined up waiting to be sheared; IT IS IMPOSSIBLE
who can do it wouldn't need anyone else, and they would
own the world! If someone had it figured out, you would
never here about it, much less get it from a free website
on the net. Wake up!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:02 - ID#284255)
LOL LOL Japanese MONETARISTS Strike Again
ANALYSIS-Tokyo markets give BOJ credit ease a thumbs down
By Yoshiko Mori

TOKYO, Sept 9 ( Reuters ) - The Bank of Japan ( BOJ ) 's surprise move to ease
credit further to rock-bottom levels will do little good for the nation's real
economy, for its banking sector or stock market, analysts and traders said on

``I was struck dumb with amazement. A further credit easing will do little to
invigorate the economy or to restore the health of the banking sector. And it
is surely a deadly blow to investors,'' said Shin Nagai, vice president and
treasurer of ABN-AMRO Bank's Tokyo branch.

The BOJ announced on Wednesday that it would target the key overnight call
rate at 0.25 percent and seek to expand money supply by providing ample
liquidity. For the past three years, the central bank had targeted the key
call rate to move a bit below the 0.5 percent discount rate level, on

``It is a big question, whether ( BOJ's move ) will result in an expansion of
the money supply and solve the problem of the credit crunch,'' Susumu Kato,
chief economist at Barclays Capital, said.

ABN-AMRO's Nagai said a further rate reduction would only make it easier for
healthier banks to raise funds at a cheaper cost, while leaving intact the
severe fund-raising difficulties that some banks are experiencing.

``Unlike other countries, interest-rate levels in Japan are already low, so I
doubt it will have much impact on the stock market. The move could be seen as
part of a global ( interest rate ) policy coordination.'' said Keiko Kondo, a
strategist at Merrill Lynch Japan Inc.

BOJ Governor Masaru Hayami, however, denied at an news conference it was part
of a concerted international action.

A lower domestic rate could reduce the financial burden on banks, which would
be good for supporting banking shares, Kondo said. But restructuring is what
the sector needs, and rate easing will not achieve that, she added.

Hayami said the BOJ conducted a monetary easing at this time because of ``a
severe worsening in Japan's economic conditions and a rise in concerns about
the financial system.''

Economists doubted its impact on the real economy.

``Unfortunately, demand for funds in the economy remains quite weak. It's not
going to have much of an impact, but its a clear signal that financial
authorities are getting worried about the survival of major financial
institutions,'' Schroders economist Andrew Shipley said.

Meanwhile, fund managers expressed dismay and said they planned to allocate
more funds to overseas securities markets.

``The lower interest rates deal a serious blow to the financial health of the
already shaky fund management side by further hurting their investment
performance,'' Nagai said.

During the easy credit policy days since September 1995, income gains for
depositors and pensioners have declined drastically, slashing their purchasing
power and dampening already weak spending, economists said.

``I understand how depositors and pensioners feel, but the priority goes to
rejuvenating the economy,'' Hayami said.

Capital flow out of Japan will only increase after the BOJ easing, fund
managers said.

These idiots are so hapless and helpless that they don't realize that just
about anything they do will be harmfull at this late stage. Lower rates? LOL
LOL LOL They are already so low that it does not make the slightest bit of
difference, in practical terms' if they are lowered more. It will only force
more money to flood out out of Japan, the LAST thing they need.

They just poured a bucket of gasoline on the bonfire.


This was so inept that I can barely keep the tears out of my eyes, I'm
laughing so hard.

They tried a Keynesian approach. Nothing. Now a Monetarist last ditch effort.
Clutching at straws like the rubes that they are.

And the people behind these moves actually think of themselves as 'economists'

Paul Milne

"If you live within five miles of a 7-11, you're toast"
Indonesian mobs loot rice from warehouses. trucks JAKARTA, Sept 9 ( Reuters ) -
Hundreds of Indonesians, hit by rising prices, have looted warehouses and
trucks of rice in two parts of the country, a military official and witnesses
said on Wednesday.

Looters raided several warehouses of rice and other essential commodities in
several small towns around the city of Pontianak in West Kalimantan province
on Tuesday, a military officer in the region said.

Most of the warehouses were owned by ethnic Chinese, who are a minority in the
country but control the economy and are thus often the targets of violence by
resentful mobs.

``The mobs have been looting essential goods at a number of ethnic Chinese
warehouses, particularly looking for rice, in several towns,'' Lieutenant
Yasmin, a military officer in the village of Siantan near Pontianak, told

This is what people do when they do not have food. Indonesians are people
just like Americans are people. When they don't have food available, they
will steal it. They will have no other choice.

All around you are the warning signs of what happens when food runs out, but
you Pollyannas still do nothing. Hyperinflation in Russian, violence in
Indonesia. But still you sit on your assess. And yes, this is exactly why I
will LAUGH at you when the SHTF. You have been warned REPEATEDLY and you do

Once upon a time there was a man sitting on a beach. Another man walked over
to him and said,"You know, an earthquake was detected off the coast and there
is a good liklihood of a tsunami hitting this beach. You ought to leave."

"I don't see any Tsunami."

"Well, you won't see it until it is too late. By the time you see it , it will
be upon you. You need to move BEFORE it gets here or it will kil you."

"You just WANT to see me die you HATEFUL FEARMONGER."

"No, I am trying to save your life. It will be here soon and you and your
family ought to get to a safe place."

"You coward! Run away. Defeatist pig. I see absolutely no evidence of a
tsunami and I am staying right here."

Yup, I LAUGH OUT LOUD at the morons who have been warned and then get wiped
out. It is what their folly deserves.
Paul Milne

"If you live within five miles of a 7-11, you're toast"

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:04 - ID#173262)
Glad I didn't buy any HM puts.... As if that were a thought.

Looks like the ascending triangle double flopped. How much money is riding on Jeil's ( Jail's ) deadly accurate projections.

Where is the evidence of PM's down
with the overall market. I look back at
some 8/28/98 technical posts and want
to throw-up. During the fallout of the DOW
last week PM's had the best week in recent
memory. The PM strength in the midst of this
selloff tells a story much bigger than the
double dip, tripple top, backward upside down

There is a lesson to be illustrated here for all the
sheep lined up waiting to be sheared; IT IS IMPOSSIBLE
who can do it wouldn't need anyone else, and they would
own the world! If someone had it figured out, you would
never here about it, much less get it from a free website
on the net. Wake up!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:07 - ID#287312)
CNBC: Ron Insana just stated that Brazil was under some pressure
I would say so, down 14%. Folks that's some pressure LOL

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:19 - ID#28781)
technical comments

The 5 minutes bar chart of the XAU index shows 5 waves up from the Aug 31st low. I would expect a pullback to the 55-58 area which is the previous wave four of one less degree. Longer term, the trendline from the April high has been broken. This should be wave ( C ) of a larger X wave which began in January of this year. Wave B being a zig-zag formation of a larger irregular flat formation. Gold should reach the 330-340 level in wave C

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:26 - ID#284255)
For those who are serious

Must read

Seems like someone just hit a buy button.
Will it contain the persuasive sellers???

Dave in CO
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:32 - ID#229141)
@LGB 12:26
Very well said. If Lorne Green narrates I think you may have a hit there.

Away to CNBC to check out the rally off the day's lows. Got all these S&P puts to worry about, ohmy!

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:33 - ID#212323)
Dammit! My 12:24 is a complete washout because Bloomberg moved the link on me!
Here is the text I wanted to bring to your attention. Grrrrrrrrr...

U.K. May Be Given Supervisory Role in Euro Currency ( Update4 )

London, Sept. 10 ( Bloomberg ) -- The European Central Bank
will give the U.K., which isn't joining the single currency next
year, a role in coordinating banking supervision within the 11-
nation euro region, EU banking officials said.

The Bank of England implicitly confirmed the plan today when
a spokeswoman said she couldn't comment until a decision was
made at tomorrow's ECB council meeting in Frankfurt. A spokesman
for Denmark's central bank also confirmed the vote tomorrow.

The move appears designed to give Prime Minister Tony Blair
ammunition to persuade a skeptical British public to abandon the
pound and join a euro currency, whose stability he could argue
would be guaranteed from London, Europe's financial capital.
"London is, after all, Europe's biggest financial center,"
said Fernando Gutierrez, an economist at Argentaria SA, Spain's
third-largest bank and a former Bank of Spain economist.
"British supervisors also have more experience than most with
very complicated financial products. More and better coordination
among bank supervisors is a good idea."
[read that paragraph several times, and remember the gold connection with London...LBMA]

The U.K. economy, Europe's third-largest after Germany and
France, is struggling under the weight of a strong pound,
bolstered by six interest rate increases since May 1997, which
have eroded exports and nipped consumer spending and confidence.

Blair and Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown has said
the U.K. "in principle" is in favor of joining the single
currency and plans to hold a referendum on joining after the next
election, which must be held by mid-2002 at the latest.

The single currency will be introduced Jan. 1 in an 11-
nation zone of 300 million people for inter-bank business.
Notes and coins won't be distributed until Jan. 1, 2002. The
initial members are Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands,
Belgium, Austria, Finland, Portugal, Ireland and Luxembourg.

A May poll of U.K. voters by ICM showed a majority of
Britons still opposed U.K. membership of the euro although the
proportion of opponents was falling. ICM said 48 percent of
voters opposed euro membership down from 61 percent in April.

Nuno Jonet, a spokesman for the Bank of Portugal, said his
country has no problem with the U.K. participating in euro
supervision before it's actual entry into the currency.
"It makes sense," Jonet said. "We can't leave out those
countries that are included in the ( European Union's ) free
movement of capital."

The ECB plan aims to diminish the difference between the so-
called Euro-11 and the EU outsiders -- the U.K., Sweden, Denmark
and Greece, the FT said. It added the plans also reflect the
acknowledged leadership of London as the leading European
financial center and the need to ensure financial stability in
Europe in the face of financial crises in Russia and Japan.

Dave in CO
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:35 - ID#229141)
@LGB 12:26
Very well said. If Lorne Green narrates you just may have a hit there.

I take back the bad names - no wait! I haven't called you any bad names.

Away to CNBC to check out the rally off the day's lows. Got all these S&P puts to worry about you know. Ohmy!

Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:38 - ID#33184)
Funny money

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:46 - ID#350179)
Access a bit slow today...
This has helped in the past.

Must be something happening in the market ; )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:55 - ID#254321)
When does reducing interest rates work?
D.A., sharefin, All: I am no financial exchange expert, but I have some questions for you all.
First, what Japan needs is to attract wealth back to their country. So -- what do you do? You put your financial system in order -- full disclosure of banks. You cut government expenses by slashing budgets -- all that Japanes bureacracy seems to be doing very little. You cut taxes, to ease the corporate or provate burden.
A rising Japanese stock market, stimulated by easy credit should help, shouldn't it? But -- now wait a minute -- Japan is already offering one of the lowest interest rates in the world -- nearly 0%, and countries like the US are offering 5% ( or so ) on treasuries. So -- the average investor borrows money in Japan at zero % and buys US treasuries at 5% for a nice 4% plus profit. Even better if the Japanese Yen is dropping, and if you can get a margin account.
So dropping interest rates do not increase the Japanese money supply, unless that money stays within Japanese borders. If the Yen created simply goes to buy US dollars elsewhere, it is not where it is needed.
So -- my conclusion is that the stupidest thing Japan could do right now is to lower rates, unless they hard the highest currency interest rate in the world, not the lowest one.
No matter what Japans trade advantage is with the rest of the world, it is hard to believe that they just want more Japanese yen to chase US dollars.
Either the Japanese are being very stupid, or there is something we don't know about.
I have several ideas, but none of them seem very plausible. First, what if Japan wants to encourage purchase of other Asian currencies, possibly for foreign investment? This seems illogical as a multitude of foreign investors would compete by wanting to take advantage of the Yen/dollar carry trade. Now -- perhaps the threat to push the US dollar down by lowering US interest rates is causing the Yen/Dollar carry trade to dry up, letting Japan to put their Yen in other Asian countries.
What if the Japanese Yen is to be the South East Asian reserve currency, instead of the US dollar?
I have no answers on this, and I am very worried the Japanese are failing to come to grips with their 'little' problem as John Cleese would say.
Regardless, if the Japanese were really on the ball, they would be slashing the government budget, cutting taxes, and playing hardball with their insolvent banks. The mere fact that they are doing none of this suggests very strongly to me that they still do not realize how close they are to oblivion. Perhaps they know, but they can't really do anything about it.

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 14:55 - ID#212323)
Good cautionary note, Professor.
Yet one must not completely fail to see the importance of simply *hitting* the dartboard. It is, perhaps, with that *final* throw that one has the luxury of patience and very careful aim for the bulls-eye. No points are scored if the dartboard is taken away before any throws can be made. Such is the world of derivitives that we live in.

I'm confident that you have at least *one* dart stuck in the board...?

As as always in matters like this, only the future will reveal what the bulls-eye is/WAS.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:03 - ID#365216)
how can I fit all my y2k preps in my small one-bedroom apt?
With a years worth of food coming soon, MREs piling up in the closet,
my guns, ammo, and cash looking like their really gonna need a safe
for a hiding place, and stockpiling water via 2 liter pop bottles
as I finish the sodas, I am quickly running out of space.

Maybe, as we get closer to the date, I could rent a storage space
but: Wait! What if the computerized gate to get into the facility
won't open. Damn: the new "stone" age is gonna suck.

Every family
should have at least one rifle and one handgun and even a shotgun
as a deterrent and if need be as a defensive posture. You'd like
to think things will never get that bad but that's what they thought
in LA too. I guaren"freaking"tee you that the store owner who stood
outside his shop with an AR-15 at the ready didn't get his store
messed with. Rioters ain't that dumb, especially if they were unarmed


Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:05 - ID#33184)
Does anyone respect the IMF anymore? Well, I would feel guilty not reporting what IMF western hemisphere director, Loser, had to say about his dominion. On the negative side, he questioned Venezuela's ability to maintain its FOREX rate without tightening monetary policy and greater fiscal austerity. Also, the IMF revised its 1998 growth forecast to 3.0% from 3.5%. Otherwise, Loser was quite positive.

Source: Internet Currency Trading News

(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:11 - ID#354133)
All - for your anecdotes and moral support for the upcoming endeavor.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:22 - ID#21275)
based on AG and RR past action in 78 and drrving the rates down
in 91 to bail out the banks, they will cut rates by .50%.
Could hapen this weekend?

Cage Rattler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:27 - ID#33184)
CORRECTION: South Africa repo rate unchanged
The SARB posted the incorrect number on their website.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:45 - ID#284255)
Like Paul said they've just poured fuel on the fire.
I don't know where it'll end.
I'm expecting a massive derivatives pop very soon.

Who knows what'll happen then.

Email chatter: Why it is so real???
I have been lurking for a long time and Tom Benjamin has inspired me to add
something that has finally sunk into this thick skull of mine. Gary North
keeps saying, in effect, "It's the division of labor, Stupid!" And you are
right... but most people don't understand the division of labor on a
meaningful level.

Here is how I would explain the division of labor problem. As Gary describes,
the tremendous advancement in the West's standard of living over the last
couple of centuries has been possible because of the sophisticated use we
have made of the division of labor in society. I would like to stress the
phrase "in society". If the power grid goes down as a result of the
uncounted and countless points of simultaneous failures cascading across the
electrical grid then civilization will have just had it's Reset button hit.
This doesn't mean that our economy's division of labor takes a big hit.
This means that our economy's division of labor ceases to exist at all.

What does that mean personally to any of us? Just this, and I'll use an
example. Many of us who are concerned are doing what we can on an
individual or family level to prepare for this potential collapse. Now we
may think we are acting as individuals but really we are not. The only
reason we have the ability to prepare in the first place is because we can
make use of the division of labor THAT IS SUPPLIED TO US BY THE EXISTING
SOCIAL ARRANGEMENTS. Our society is an organization of the division of
labor. We think we are preparing as sole individuals but we delude
ourselves, inspiring a false sense of confidence that since I have the
ability to prepare then I can make it on my own after the collapse. What
most people are forgetting is that others implicitly aided my preparations
because I was able to make use of the division of labor as it exists. After
the shut down of the power grid, that division of labor supplied by the
organization of our current society will not exist. We, in the most literal
sense, will be on our own.

I point this out to illustrate something I think a lot of people are not
recognizing because I didn't recognize it either. Half of preparing for the
collapse caused by a grid failure has to be planning for the rebuilding
process on the other side of the collapse. Our society's division of labor
will not be available after the collapse. That means we are going to be
forced to build our own division of labor from the ground up... on a very
small scale. But to do that, we can not think only in terms of individual
action as we are use to thinking. We can think we are acting as individuals
now but that is only an illusion made possible by the supply of the division
of labor our society gives us each and every minute.

So when I look for that country property where my family and I can weather
the storm, I am also forced to think about how we are going to begin anew on
that property after the storm has passed. Suddenly it occurs to me that I
can't do that as an individual. I still need the division of labor of at
least three or four families working together to reproduce on a very small
scale what society use to provide for us automatically before the Reset
button was hit.
I heard on my local news today that the computers went down yesterday 9/9/98
on the national Benefits Agency ( Welfare ) here in the UK. The item said that
millions of people could be paid the wrong money, and gave the impression
that the problem was still not fixed today. The system is new!!! no one was
able to comment on the reason for this.
Siemens and Fujitsu have just announced the closure of two semiconductor
plants here in the North East of england......another two thousand people
less to work on the problem of replacing embedded chips.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 15:57 - ID#284255)
Like Paul said they've just poured fuel on the fire.
I don't know where it'll end.
I'm expecting a massive derivatives pop very soon.

Who knows what'll happen then.

Email chatter: Why it is so real???
I have been lurking for a long time and Tom Benjamin has inspired me to add
something that has finally sunk into this thick skull of mine. Gary North
keeps saying, in effect, "It's the division of labor, Stupid!" And you are
right... but most people don't understand the division of labor on a
meaningful level.

Here is how I would explain the division of labor problem. As Gary describes,
the tremendous advancement in the West's standard of living over the last
couple of centuries has been possible because of the sophisticated use we
have made of the division of labor in society. I would like to stress the
phrase "in society". If the power grid goes down as a result of the
uncounted and countless points of simultaneous failures cascading across the
electrical grid then civilization will have just had it's Reset button hit.
This doesn't mean that our economy's division of labor takes a big hit.
This means that our economy's division of labor ceases to exist at all.

What does that mean personally to any of us? Just this, and I'll use an
example. Many of us who are concerned are doing what we can on an
individual or family level to prepare for this potential collapse. Now we
may think we are acting as individuals but really we are not. The only
reason we have the ability to prepare in the first place is because we can
make use of the division of labor THAT IS SUPPLIED TO US BY THE EXISTING
SOCIAL ARRANGEMENTS. Our society is an organization of the division of
labor. We think we are preparing as sole individuals but we delude
ourselves, inspiring a false sense of confidence that since I have the
ability to prepare then I can make it on my own after the collapse. What
most people are forgetting is that others implicitly aided my preparations
because I was able to make use of the division of labor as it exists. After
the shut down of the power grid, that division of labor supplied by the
organization of our current society will not exist. We, in the most literal
sense, will be on our own.

I point this out to illustrate something I think a lot of people are not
recognizing because I didn't recognize it either. Half of preparing for the
collapse caused by a grid failure has to be planning for the rebuilding
process on the other side of the collapse. Our society's division of labor
will not be available after the collapse. That means we are going to be
forced to build our own division of labor from the ground up... on a very
small scale. But to do that, we can not think only in terms of individual
action as we are use to thinking. We can think we are acting as individuals
now but that is only an illusion made possible by the supply of the division
of labor our society gives us each and every minute.

So when I look for that country property where my family and I can weather
the storm, I am also forced to think about how we are going to begin anew on
that property after the storm has passed. Suddenly it occurs to me that I
can't do that as an individual. I still need the division of labor of at
least three or four families working together to reproduce on a very small
scale what society use to provide for us automatically before the Reset
button was hit.
I heard on my local news today that the computers went down yesterday 9/9/98
on the national Benefits Agency ( Welfare ) here in the UK. The item said that
millions of people could be paid the wrong money, and gave the impression
that the problem was still not fixed today. The system is new!!! no one was
able to comment on the reason for this.
Siemens and Fujitsu have just announced the closure of two semiconductor
plants here in the North East of england......another two thousand people
less to work on the problem of replacing embedded chips.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:14 - ID#350179)
I was wrong (no surprise there :)
DOW -3.17% 7615.54 Within the channel though.
Intraday low was -345 CBNC ( Close but no cigar ) .

XAU 11.60% 67.90 ( Oh My )

What will the morrow bring?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:16 - ID#229207)
We were both right. When it was at -220 I said it'd exit at or below that point. But it went much lower first and you were correct that it did its jump-to-grab-the-bar move at the end.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:17 - ID#252391)
EZ BELIEVER thanks for the SSRIF briefs

DOW bears watch for an interest rate cut, soon

GOLD BELIEVERS - I get a buy signal today

JEIL OR JieL followers draw your yellow lines UP on HM

Gusto Oro
(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:17 - ID#430260)
Dave in Co...
Higher highs and lower lows--CNBC is ecstatic! --AG

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:18 - ID#113316)
imbalanced valuations
Market Cap MSFT: $246 Billion
Market Cap XON: $170 Billion

Could see a brutal revaluation tech vs. natural resources before bear market ends. And there are always opportunities.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:19 - ID#43349)
Looks like no weeping for either of us. I thought for sure you were going to be right after everything kept weakening after lunch, but no big selloff at the end. No big rebound either. Unless you count the puny little approx 100 point retrace as the day shorts closed out in the last few minutes.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:20 - ID#224363)
Spin, Spin and more Spin
I've decided that I am sick and tired of hearing the phrase 'SAFE HAVEN'. Especially in the context of gold, bonds, treasuries, etc.

There is no such thing as a safe haven. At different times, different investment vehicles offer different degrees of value with respect to capital preservation and appreciation.

I think the last week has demonstrated quite well why people use gold. When the going gets crazy...the crazy get gold. Maybe in 3-4 years gold will be replaced something else.

But for now, get gold before it gets you.

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:23 - ID#173262)
jims.....You are welcome.....Amen!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:23 - ID#372262)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:25 - ID#288186)

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Sept. 10

Gold 917,723 - 1,608 troy ounces
Silver 78,177,668 - 338,079 troy ounces
Copper 54,871 + 0 short tons

N/A= Not available.
The 1,608 oz's removed from Gold totals were from eligible stock. The
338,079 oz's removed from Silver totals were mostly from registered stock.

Wow, what a day for PM's!! Let's hope it keeps up. I'd like to see another 2dollar UP day in GOLD! I'm sure everyone else here will agree...
See ya! Fox-man

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:27 - ID#43349)
Absolutely! They should pick another name. Maybe the-latest-fad-place-people-are-less-afraid-to-keep-funds-than-any-place-else.

Hmmnnn. That seems a little long. Virtual safe? Refuge 0f last resort?

I'll have to work on it.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:30 - ID#372262)


(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:32 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Fox Man -- If gold cracks todays highs, I'm expecting another 5 right off the bat. Perhaps more.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:32 - ID#229207)
Emboldened by my success with my WAG at today's market events I'm already prepared for my next WAG. First, a brief background.

The public displays of contempt for Clinton that are suddenly pouring out of his former friends are timed to the Starr report. They are aware of enough about what's in the report to know they have to create distance from Clinton BEFORE the report is made public. This suggests that the report contains more serious allegations and evidence than the public and the market expects or can reasonably imagine. For example, there are rumors of drugs showing up in the "sample" from Monica's dress.

The market hates surprises.

My bet is for a slight up at the open and then more sell-off in the afternoon as the specifics of the report spreads and increases the fear of compromised US leadership in a time of financial crisis, with perhaps a Gollum's Traders spike-up at the end.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:34 - ID#213265)
@the scene
Later all.....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:37 - ID#212197)
@JTF: Your 14:55 Looking to make sense of Japan's actions
I agree with your arguments. They are logical. I'm basically thinking the same thoughts, but that doesn't seem to explain Japan's actions satisfactorily.
Therefore, I think we have to assume that the Japanese political/financial establishment doesn't want what we think would be the right thing. Take foreign capital. I come to the conclusion that they do not want a stream of foreign capital flowing into their country, buying Japanese investment assets. Maybe they want to discourage that. Maybe they have the priority to control their own industrial plants and scare foreign capital away. Maybe they feel they can easily create Yens out of thin air and keeping the advantage to "export" Yen as well as cars and other industrial products.
There is nothing wrong with their competitiveness in all export oriented industries. That's what they seem to rely upon.

On the capital exchange side, in their relation with the US, what are they doing? They encourage further the Yen-Dollar carry. That means: they export Yen ( created out of thin air ) and "import" T-notes,T-bills. In a way that's smart, isn't it? In a way, that's a good move in the international financial chess game ( i.e., chess war ) , isn't it?

Now, as far as the western hysteria about their banking system is concerned: maybe this doesn't really bother them too much, becaus ethat's basically a kind of a hang-over from an overevaluated real estate market and stock market from 9 years ago.

I feel more and more, the Japanese establishment's thinking is remarkably different from our own perception. But it still might make sense and be smarter than we usually assume.

Anyhow: It's quite fascinating and the more you exclude the possibility that they are acting out of stupidity, the more fascinating it becomes.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:38 - ID#343171)
xau changed???
looks like Getchell Gold ggo, was added to the xau index,
added also Freeport fcx, Echo Bay taken out.
Just got a package of eagle in the mail real beauties, but sold
my ggo, been in and out a few times on that one.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:39 - ID#43349)
@Gollum (@PMF ) ID#43349:
Virtual safe sounds like a birth control device...

How about 'The place where your money won't lose as much as the other place' ?

Hmmm...maybe we should stick with 'virtual safe' and use the phrase
'You'll never be screwed with virtual safe !!!'

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:45 - ID#347235)
Auric,Fred All who advised me earlier
Thanks for the adivice, unfortunately I took it too soon and sold most of my gold except for a few numismatics & English Sovs two days ago, AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!, cost me about $400.00 over this period, but I will buy back in when I get to Europe.Hope to see som of you when I get there I will post an e-mail asap after arrival. Again thanks to all who tried to help me in my decision. SHALOM

Gold Dancer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:47 - ID#377196)
Great Day for Gold
If gold can continue up tomorrow the gold stocks will also. But
some like NEM and ABX have moved a great deal already. DROOY closed at
2 15/32 which was 1/32 lower than it hit several days ago. So my
feeling is that the gold stocks just might take a rest for a week or
so. More of a sideways move than a big decline.

Just a thought, but whenever I get excited by a good day in gold
it seems to fizzle. But I'm not selling. Holding thru all declines
till I see the whites of their eyes.

One of my brokers said today that more of his clients are selling
some of their mutual funds. A few, not many, are willing to buy gold
stocks. But some are going to buy back the stocks they sold earlier.

So there is plenty of time left for gold to hit a high, even a
temporary high. And much further to the bottom in the DOW. ime and

Thanks, GD

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:48 - ID#290172)
GOLD--Some OFFICIAL legal rulings from the EU...Financial Asset of First Mention (& First Choice?)
Council Regulation ( EC ) No 2223/96 of 25 June 1996 on the European system of national and regional
accounts in the Community
Official journal NO. L 310 , 30/11/1996 P. 0001 - 0469 Amended by 398R0448 ( OJ L 058 27.02.98 p.1 )

5.01. Definition: Financial transactions are transactions in financial assets and liabilities between institutional units, and between them and the rest of the world.
5.03. Financial assets are economic assets, comprising means of payment, financial claims and economic assets which are close to financial claims in nature.

Financial claims entitle their owners, the creditors, to receive a payment or series of payments without any counter-performance from other institutional units, the debtors, who have incurred the counterpart liabilities.
Examples of economic assets which are close to financial claims in nature are shares and other equity and partly contingent assets. The institutional unit issuing such a financial asset is considered to have incurred a counterpart liability.

5.06. Seven categories of FINANCIAL ASSETS ARE DISTINGUISHED: MONETARY GOLD and special drawing rights ( AF.1 ) , currency and deposits ( AF.2 ) , securities other than shares ( AF.3 ) , loans ( AF.4 ) , shares and other equity ( AF.5 ) , insurance technical reserves ( AF.6 ) and other accounts receivable/payable ( AF.7 ) .


transactions in currency and deposits ( F.2 ) ,
transactions in securities other than shares ( F.3 ) ,
transactions in loans ( F.4 ) ,
transactions in shares and other equity ( F.5 ) ,
transactions in insurance technical reserves ( F.6 )
and transactions in other accounts receivable/payable ( F.7 ) .

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:48 - ID#269409)
@ Realistic
New all time highs in the band market indeed...maybe the REAL market analysts and experts know something after all when they come up with the Equit / Bond ratios they do eh?

Diversification. Watching market trends carefully....keeping emotionalism and GURU following totally out of one's investment strategy ( especially when the GURU's are self appointed Know nothings who make up the facts as they go along....I htink we know what type of self appointed Buffoon's I refer to...and their very small band of pathetic followers....! )

Diversification is saving my Ass it has for 2 decades now. otherwise I'd be jumping out a window! Those who put all their eggs in precious metals, stocks, dollars, or bonds..... are all going to lose most of their net worth somewhere along the line.

Can you imagine where folks are who've been listening to the Puetz's ( And Wanna be Puetz's like *Fwipe ) for the last few years??! Those poor souls, having been in primarily the worst investment possible the past 20 years, not to mention if they were buying S&P Puts during all the UP moves... will having NOTHING left to invest by now...and when the Gold & silver train leave the station, they'll be left behind.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:49 - ID#343171)
overnight crowd
what do you bet the Aussies and SAfrican producers kill this
rally by forward selling overnight?
we still have to get past $300 and get the shorts to panic.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:51 - ID#284255)
sharefin (JTF) ID#284255:

In Man's association with Man, there are only TWO Basic alternatives:


YES.....stuff like love is an exchange..... a VALUE exchange :- ) ]]]

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:51 - ID#372262)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:51 - ID#350179)
At the close, is that up or DOWn?... ; )

But seriously, Atropos is sharpening her shears.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:52 - ID#231337)
Gold Price has not changed !!
Its the US $$ that has determined the price!! Not New news! Here are some rough calcs that make the point.

Oct - Dec '96: US$$ index at +- 88 points, Gold +-$330

Aug '98: US$$ index at +- 102 points ( an INCREASE of 16% ) , Gold at $277, a DECREASE of 16% ) .

Sept 10, '98: US$$ Index at +- 97 Points ( decrease of 5% from its high ) . Gold at $292, ( an INCREASE of 5% from its low ) .

The US $$ can potentially go as low as 82 points in the next 6 Mos. ( a 20% DECREASE ) , so potentially Gold will go to +- $340 over the same time.

Now factor into the Gold price the following:

Demand higher than in 1996

Production down by 20%

SHORTS must Cover.

Gold price in 6 Mos? $375, $390, $425.....

The Canadian Dollar dropped 16% over the same timeframe ( .75 down to .63 ) and has now corrected by 5% to .66.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:55 - ID#372262)
Most of it in Fidelity!! Can you imagine what will happen to FSAGX and FDPMX when this hoard of cash begins to hit the GOLD MARKET?!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:57 - ID#372262)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 16:58 - ID#43349)
That might be a pretty good scenario. When do we get to hear about what's in the report?

I suspect that when the news gets out, if it's really bad the market will go up. And if it's not very bad the market will go up. But if it's only in between the market will go down.

The market hates uncertainty. If the news was bad enough that it was obvious he was done for, bingo! Or innocuous enough that it was clear he would survive, bingo!

Just like the threat of war drags the market down, but once war is declared ( or called off ) , bingo!

For the trader's spike at the end, you need a clear signal early on to bring in a bunch on the short side. If instead, you have news that gets a bunch in on the long side the spike goes the other way.

Besides Clinton's fotunes, or rather misfortunes, we'll have to watch the overnight markets and the Globex in the morning.

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:02 - ID#212323)
ALBERICH...your recent thoughts made me think of something from a new angle.
You said:
"There is nothing wrong with their competitiveness in all export oriented
industries. That's what they seem to rely upon.
On the capital exchange side, in their relation with the US, what are
they doing? They encourage further the Yen-Dollar carry. That means:
they export Yen ( created out of thin air ) and "import"
T-notes,T-bills. In a way that's smart, isn't it? In a way, that's a
good move in the international financial chess game ( i.e., chess war ) ,
isn't it?"

It made me think of the adage--If you owe the bank a Million dollars, you worry. If you owe the bank a Billion dollars, the BANK worries.

Now, consider what you said together with that thought. Things get interesting in a hurry. Japan is essentially the bank, and they've moved from the "million dollar mark" to the "billion dollar mark". There is a leash between the two, but who can tell anymore which is the dog and which is the owner. Have you ever seen two dogs, one on each end of the same leash? Unpredictable. Perhaps that is what we now have here.

got pooper scooper?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:03 - ID#254321)
Perhaps the bar is moving by itself.
Voyeur Professor: Your critical threshold for the gold rally is changing as we speak -- the US dollar index was at 102 less than two weeks ago, and it is dropping steadily. Over 1.5% down again today.
If the dollar does not go back up to 102 fairly soon -- which is very unlikely -- things are looking up for an eventual gold rally, with little threat from a continued commodity price crash.
My guess is that the real price of gold ( in US dollars ) just went up about 7%. That is approximately a $ 25 rise in gold without any real market effort at all.
What really worries me is not whether we are having a real gold rally or short covering right now, because our gold ( bullion ) rally is coming.
What worries me is that the US dollar is going down a little too fast for my comfort. Good thing that US interest rates are not going up the same way they did before the Oct 87 crash. But -- I am still uneasy, given the derivatives driven financial turmoil we had yesterday. Probably a major warning that the world's ( US dollar-based ) financial derivatives trades are unraveling. We are likely to be moving to a time when all of our electronic indicators are useless, like Gollum's analogy with the aircraft and the markets -- and all of a sudden all the instruments are dark and the controls fail to respond. Wouldn't matter how smart AG and RR and the PPT are -- they can't push or pull without numbers to follow.
Hopefully we will have a significant rise in interest rates when things are really going sour.

Tyler Rose
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:04 - ID#373164)
Hello to all! Does anyone know what the "fair value" that should be added to the cash S&P to get the December value?, or a web site that publishes it?

Thanks, & Go Gold!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:06 - ID#345176)
The fires of Wall Street

Fire fighters have been brought from 5
neighboring states to combat the recent
fires which have errupted on Wall Street
and are threatening the financial stability
of many US and foreign investors.

The fire was caused by Asian winds of high
velocity, said an eyewitness, and in spite
of all efforts of the PPT team ( Plunge
Protection Team ) to contain it with all
available fire extinguishers found on the
floor of the exchange and the nearby
buildings, the flames continue to burn out
of control.

Early reports indicate that some PPT
members are not wearing fire protection
suits and have been severely injured in
their efforts to contain the fire.

The fire fighters, however, realizing the
magnitude of the fire watched it burn, and
refused to interfere. "It is already out of
control", said one. "It was long overdue",
said another! These fire fighters had many
times warned the officials of the exchange
that a fire may errupt anytime soon, unless
a special fire protection system was
installed on the exchange, called
"sprinkleGold TM" invented by goldHeads
( aka goldbugs ) .

These goldHeads had been acquiring the
"sprinkleGold TM" system,
which was invented 6,000 years and was in
use until 1971 - well known to the PPT team
and the rest of the world.

"We are faced with a catastrophe" said an
investor who with tears in his eyes saw his
life's savings burn. Chocking and caughing
from the smoke he said: "If I only had
listened to those goldHeads, I would be
smiling now...."

Local TV crews are televizing the scene to
be broadcasted at the 6:00 news.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:08 - ID#407135)
Volume & open interest at Comex
Does anyone have data on Volume & Open Interest on Comex

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:08 - ID#401237)

There are not enough Gold mining Shares for every demand. I will sell my NEM for 75 / share if they want it, heh! heh!

How about ECO at 30/ share!

Go Gold!


(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:11 - ID#222186)
S&P500 Dec Fair Value
is $0.70 today, according to CNBC ticker.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:15 - ID#387243)
Intel and Oracle came out with good news after the close
We goldbugs shouldn't start to celebrate yet again. Intel and Oracle announced good news after the market close ( and CNBC is pushing this news hard! ) . This probably means big UP correction in the US markets tomorrow which will also probably mean gold loses some ( if not all ) of its gains today.

Gold Dancer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:15 - ID#377196)
I think you will get your 75 for NEM. Just don't know when. And
I will get my 14 to 15 for DROOY. Don't know when but I have stuck
my neck out by saying Jan of '99.

If gold can get to $375 by then it could happen. Once gold clears
$310 it should go fast.

Good luck to both of us. Thanks, GD

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:15 - ID#401237)
Kitco Access

Anybody having problems accessing Kitco while the markets are closes and no problem.


No one has explained this yet, who is buying? 153,000 shares traded to day? Easy way to make large % on your money????...Some one is doing it?


(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:17 - ID#222186)
The fair value for the SEP ( not Dec ) Spoos is $0.70. Sorry for the mistake.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:17 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 26.17. The 233 day moving average is 28.42. The 377 day moving average is 26.15

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:18 - ID#290172)
Gold--Europa's Rules
Community legislation in force
Legal act

5.24. Category F.1 consists of two sub-categories of financial transactions:
( a ) monetary gold ( F.11 ) ;
( b ) special drawing rights ( SDRs ) ( F.12 ) .
5.25. The financial assets classified in the category monetary gold and SDRs ( AF.1 ) are the only financial assets for which there are no counterpart liabilities in the system. Therefore, transactions in monetary gold and SDRs ( F.1 ) always involve changes in ownership of financial assets ( see paragraph 5.02 ) .
Monetary gold ( F.11 )

5.26. Definition: The sub-category monetary gold ( F.11 ) consists of all transactions in monetary gold ( AF.11 ) that is gold held as a component of foreign reserves by monetary authorities or by others who are subject to the effective control of the authorities.

5.27. The monetary authorities sector, which is based on a functional concept, consists of the subsector the central bank ( S.121 ) and central government institutions which carry out operations usually attributed to the central bank. Such operations include the issue of currency, maintenance and management of international reserves and the operation of exchange stabilization funds. Therefore, gold can normally be a financial asset only for the central bank or central government.

However, in some circumstances, other financial corporations may hold title to gold that can only be sold with the specific consent of the monetary authorities. In such restricted circumstances, the concept of effective control can be applied to the gold holdings of financial corporations other than the central bank.

5.28. Monetary gold normally takes the form of bars with a purity of at least 995/1000.

5.29. Transactions in monetary gold consist predominantly of sales and purchases of monetary gold among monetary authorities. Purchases of monetary gold are recorded in the financial accounts of the domestic monetary authorities as increases in financial assets. The counterpart entries are decreases in financial assets of the rest of the world.

5.30. Transactions in non-monetary gold, that is in gold other than monetary gold, are treated as acquisitions less disposals of valuables ( IF THE SOLE PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE A STORE OF WEALTH ) and otherwise as final or intermediate consumption and/or change in inventories.

Transactions in non-monetary gold include transactions by the monetary authorities in gold that is not a component of their foreign reserves.

5.31. If monetary authorities add non-monetary gold to their holdings of monetary gold or release monetary gold from their holdings for non-monetary purposes, they are deemed to have monetized or demonetized gold, respectively. Monetization or demonetization of gold does not give rise to entries in the financial accounts; instead, the change in balance sheet positions is accounted for by entries in the other changes in the volume of assets account as a reclassification, i.e. the reclassification of gold as valuables ( AN.13 ) to monetary gold ( AF.11 ) ( see paragraph 6.32 ) . Demonetization of gold is recorded symmetrically.

5.32. Deposits, securities and loans denominated in gold are treated as financial assets other than monetary gold and are classified along with similar financial assets in foreign currency in the appropriate category.

Non-monetary gold swaps, that is arrangements involving the temporary exchange of non-monetary gold for deposits, are treated as collateralized loans ( see paragraph 5.81. e ) .

Monetary gold=it is in THEIR vaults
Non-monetary gold=it got out...did you get yours? {:- ) )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:18 - ID#411259)
..... Today was a good day .....

Got a call from a person with whom I have never spoken, who has read some information about platinum on the Kitco sites recently. Although some here are not fond of the noblest of metals, this caller thought I had offered some pretty compelling points about platinum over the last several months.

The caller decided to put just shy of 100K in Platinum Eagles

Mostly because of the words written on platinum over the last week or so on these very sites.

There is a certain sweet satisfaction to this deal, above all others.

Today was indeedy a good day


(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:19 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .233. The 233 day moving average is .252

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:21 - ID#173274)
@the scene
HighRise -- Yes! Almost impossible. Makes it impossible to try to post anything timely. Perhaps Bart can clarify.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:23 - ID#119358)
@got my vodka, pickles and popcorn in hand...........
Let the Leaks Begin!!!!!!!!!!!! The Starr Report will make the Titanic epic seem like a rerun of a Tom and Jerry toon. Don't count on any good days on wail street for awhile........spin is now moot. yum yum, crunch... ( gulp ) .....aaahhhhhhhh.

Steve in FL
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:23 - ID#213335)
@ RJ - I've heard platinum may be a good call. Better than gold even.
I'm on the fence, but would appreciate your view.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:26 - ID#253153)
Deflation is accelerating---The long bond recorded mew high's today with yield at 5.17%
The long bond is shouting LOUD AND CLEAR ,be carefull ,be carefull, but very few will listen. I laugh when I read about people talking about severe inflation following the the stock market decline. Sure, following this market decline, interest rates will plummet further ( both short and long rates ) but it does NOT means inflation is back. This run away deflation will run to axhaustion and this is a very long term process. Over the next 2 years , the CRB will decline to approximately 25-50 before bottoming. Gold is rising an an HEDGE against bankruptcies following the market decline as well as a safe haven for capital fleeing equity markets and real estate . A depression will be visible to all by Q1-Q2 , 1999. Only if the US government paid it's bills in cash instead of check , the deflationary trend will reverse. So far, they are paying their billls with checks. Runaway deflation is characterized by falling equity prices, falling commody prices and declining interest rates. Don't be fooled by the bear. The bear primary mission is to seperate people from their assets. Have you noticed that the ratio between gold and silver is about 58. Although the gold market will be surging in the coming month's, the silver market may stay flat for awhile and rise later on. In a depression the demand for silver may evaporate , but silver will rise slowly over the next few years. gold is prime, silver is not. Most portfolio's should be invested in gold coins and gold mining shares. In my opinion, silver and silver mining shares should constitute a small portion of any portfolio.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:26 - ID#26793)
Dollar tumbles; Latin America crumbles

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:27 - ID#387243)
Nasdaq 100 futures already up 29.50
Intel and Oracle positive news has already made up for all the nasdaq 100 loses of today. Spoos also up 13.70.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:28 - ID#229207)
@Gollum and MM
MM, closes DOWn.

Gollum, the news will be worse than expected but inconclusive on the probability of impeachment. I don't think the report's going to contain totally new revelations, such as that he snorted coke in the oval office naked with a the entire cheerleading squad from the Miami Dolphins. But even if the pres behaved much more outrageously than we already think he has, who can say for sure that this behavior constitutes legal grounds for impeachment? The report will serve to increase anxiety. The summary is supposed to be posted to the 'net sometime tomorrow, but I don't know when.

Something tells me that after it's posted, we're gonna see it reposted here a few seconds later : )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:29 - ID#26793)
The last place a banker wants to borrow is the Fed Discount Window

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:33 - ID#119358)
where o' where has the liquidity gone??? did the big bad bear eat it all? ohmy. never worry! mo' freshly-baked dollars ready@da'window....come and get 'em!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:34 - ID#317193) keep convincing me that the physical gold...
I hold is not for naught. At $ is still cheap.

Now as to which currency to use to value's that new one set to arrive on Jan. 1...forgot the name.: )


(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:35 - ID#43349)
True, true. That is if we're able to get a connection.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:38 - ID#119358)
@don't answer the door bell!!!! ring, ring, rinnnnnnnnnnnng!!!
Honey.....It's the law! RUN! I'm guessin' three indictments by Tuesday.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:39 - ID#280339)
All aboooard!!!! Gold Bull leaving the station !!
XAU closed on days high!
Dollar trashed by slimey Willie!
Brazil hemorrhaging!
Stock market crashing!
Gold up greater % than $ DOWn
Russian default!
Japanese banks negative worth.
Malasia, Indonesia and Korean currency collapse.
Crude oil up 4% today
Hedge funds dirivative margin calls
Huge amount of Gold shorts from Central Bank leasing
Sentiment still moderate on Kitco.

Buy Gold Now!!!
Chance of a lifetime!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:40 - ID#410194)
@farfel *** URGENT ***
The bond market now close to a full 12 points ( !!! ) higher compared to March 3rd!

It's been an amazing bull market and just by following the charts it made it easy to manage some money in this market. And it's a good day to take some profits today.

Farfel, how much more money do you think your friends would have today to invest in Gold and Silver ( which are at LOWER prices than back around March 3rd ) if you wouldn't have kneeled down to beg them not to invest in the bond market?

Please let us know when you get a chance.


Date: Tue Mar 03 1998 22:03

I warned many friends to avoid this Wall Street propagandistic fact, I went down on my knees with some of them and BEGGED THEM not to place any monies in bonds. I categorically predicted the current bearish scenario now unfolding in the bond market; it will only exacerbate as the TORRENT of newly printed money ( printed in the aftermath of the October crash in order to maintain liquidity ) begins to hammer bonds even further over the short-term..

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:41 - ID#26793)
Canadian gold mining shares soar into 2nd week of rally

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:41 - ID#288186)
Robh; Not sure if you got an answer but here's Comex volume for today...

Gold 68,000
Silver 13,000
H.G. Copper 10,000
Gold was heavy today wasn't it?

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:42 - ID#212323)
I believe it is E...U...something...something. ( ? )

Should be called the Auro, no?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:42 - ID#43460)
You raise some interesting points. And if the gathering distress in the steelmaking, garmentmaking, plasics, paper products, cattle ranching and various other sectors prove to continue the dollar will be forced down to save them if nothing else. IMHO

If I might let me add my 2 cents worth concerning 'soft' factors, the psychology of crowds, et cetera. Over the last few months I've seen more and more Kitcoites take on one of several stances. There are the diehard goldbugs who have decided upon a seige mentality with talk of food, guns, hidey holes in the swamps et cetera. There are the professional naysayers who talk of gold continuing to go down ( until its chemical name is changed to Lewenskyite perhaps? ) . There are the traders who see a short term trend and hope to make yet another short profit. Cyclists are having a field day retrofitting theories to explain the new data and rocket scientists enjoy shooting holes in the theories. IMHO

All this points to the fact that people in general are tense, guarded and uneasy over the POG. As Cherokee is wont to say "chaos and flux" predominate. IMHO

Now as an an investor I see that my opportunity remains good to show a profit over the 18 month to 5 year range just on the basis of past historical findings that in that time frame the lagging major market sectors tend to become the leading ones in a turnabout fashion. But as a student of human nature I see so much suffering going on here that I'm prone to believe that when the turn comes no one will recognize it, attuned as they are to failure after failure. So the temptation might well be to sell out as soon as they make a little profit, missing possible gains to follow. IMHO

Standard disclaimer applies. No advice, just observations.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:42 - ID#410194)
Speaking of charting ( see post below ) , did you change your mind at all on technical analysis or do you still think the same of it as before.

Please let us know.


Date: Fri Mar 06 1998 19:14
farfel ( @SPOCK...IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, APH IS... ) ID#339265:
...a technical chartist...Absolutely Phull of Hooey.

F*, the Unpronounceable.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:44 - ID#350145)
observation - gold, silver ,stocks
v.t.&c. canadian stocks are very interesting right now: what is moving & what is not, e.g. check out canarc ( t.ccm - big move ) . a lot of this will be good predictors for the future - gold hot - silver less hot, except for yesterday - economic and currency problems are main story, so technical approach may be limited. this is all uncharted territory ( no pun intended ) .and least we forget low silver inventories.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:47 - ID#410194)
Very well said sir.

Diversification and open-mindedness.

Objectivity and respect of reality.

These will always keep us ahead of the majority in the long haul.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:48 - ID#372262)
ABC RATINGS ON THE SKIDS!!! EARNINGS LOWERED!! DOWN AT 27 and change from the 35 and change when reco'd by you know who? EBgonetolickhiswoundsand counthislossesohmy!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:49 - ID#26793)
Swap spreads are reflecting rising credit concerns around the globe.

Who Cares?
(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:49 - ID#242214)
I don't think so
I don't think so?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:51 - ID#254321)
Aragorn III, Alberich: The two of you I think are getting somewhere with what is up in Japan.

How about this? Perhaps we are misjudging the Japanese because all of their wealth is not in Yen. The Japanese own companies all over the world, and as Aragorn III says, they are the 'bank' ( at least we think they are -- worldwide ) . It is hard to believe that the US/European 'banks' now hold the world's wealth, since we have been net debtors for so long. And, at least in the US, any review of corporate profits vs corporate debt indicates very quickly that we haven't even begun to pay off that 20 trillion of so of US non-government debt. That doesn't include the other 20 trillion of Federal debt plus entitlements.

So something about our concept of Japan is amiss -- perhaps what we are missing is that Japan is really at the center of a SEAsian EMU equivalent -- so their wealth is spread out over many currencies and countries, not just the Uen and Japan. I think what we need to do to understand Japan is to understand their entire economic system they work in -- not just Japan itself. Japan plus their local trading partners. And -- the US and Europe on the outside, looking in.

I guess one question we could ask is -- how could the Japanese jump start all of those ( newly ) very low-cost factories all over SouthEast Asia, so that they can sell us goods at 1/3-1/4 of the price of what they were a year or so ago? The Japanese also think very long term -- and have 100 year plans. We Westerners are lucky if we know what we will do in one year or so.

What really nags at me though in all of this, is that whatever Japan is up to, they would benefit by cutting the cost of their bureaucracy, and reducing taxes. They need all sorts of incentives so that individuals or corporations will capitalize Japanese or SEAsian factories so that they can jump start their expanded SEAsian economy . Aragorn III's comment along these lines is very helpful. The SEAsian bank is worried -- and Japan is ( essentially ) that bank.

Another thing is very clear -- they have no intention of losing corporate control to European, Chinese or American firms -- no matter what happens. They will do everything in their power to prevent foreign corporate buyouts.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:55 - ID#333126)
most of you guys already know this, but... the NY market internals look sick

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:55 - ID#343171)
studio.r/ XAU changed
ohh yeah, let the show begin; I've been waiting 6.5 years for clinton
to implode, would have happened sooner if not for the compliant media and 'soccer' moms.
what is your occupation? I saw it a few days back and can't remember it now, seemed unusual but I may be confused.

anyone notice XAU tossed Echo Bay and added getchell and Freeport??

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:55 - ID#26793)
Gold share news with lots of analyst comments.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 17:58 - ID#218215)
AOL Poll: How come we don't hear this poll quoted on the network news?
Just Resign NOW!!!!!! Please!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:02 - ID#252150)
Had to buy back the PDG & FN that I sold yesterday. Luckily I got them after
the little pullback this morn & FN still finished .95 higher, PDG .40 higher than my re-entry. Still think POG will have real difficulty closing over 295 & major difficulty piercing 300 because of producer selling. Would love to be wrong, though.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:02 - ID#317193)
April...1= .0035 ounces of gold
September...1= .0040 ounces of gold

Hell if I know what that means.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:04 - ID#218215)
AOL Poll: How come we don't hear this poll quoted on the network news?
Just Resign NOW!!!!!! Please! Forgot to paste!

In a Florida speech, President Clinton said, "I let my family down. I let this country down. I'm trying to make it right. I'm determined to never let anything like that happen again." Does this apology satisfy you? 







Total votes:


President Clinton said he hopes people will feel good when their children say they want to grow up to be president. Is he a good role model for America's children? 







Total votes:


Do you think that the House of Representatives should proceed with impeachment proceedings against President Clinton?







Total votes:


Many Democrats have criticized the president's behavior. Do you think it is right for Democrats to criticize the president at this time, or should they stand by their man?

Yes, the right thing to do is to stand up and criticize the president's behavior



No, Democrats should stand behind their president in his hour of difficulty



Total votes:


Do you approve of President Clinton?







Total votes:


Do you approve of the job President Clinton is doing? 







Total votes:


I am Male






Total votes:


I am a Democrat



a Republican



unaffiliated with either major party



Total votes:



Voyeur Professor
(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:04 - ID#231101)
JTF's wish for higher rates!


I thank you for your qualification to my view that $302 remains the point where golds downside momentum becomes upside. You are quite right to remind me that dollar depreciation transforms that figure. And it appears that the dollar might very well continue embattled, particularly from the apparent role that the Euro has played this week whereby investors selling dollars have turned, a bit at least, to the Euro. But I am confused by your hope for rising interest rates. I mean it no Socratic trap to tell you that I yield to your much more professional grasp of monetary issues than I can muster. Having pleaded ignorance, I would also say that higher rates, and least higher "real" interest rates ought to depress goldat least that is what I have always believed. Maybe you can disabuse me of my thinking so. Dont higher "real" interest rates permit money lenders and banks the chance to make big money. After all, if inflation sits and 2% and rates go to 7%, the "real" rate, 5% presents the lender a significant upper hand to make money. In an equity bear market there is no incentive to do anything else but "loan" money in this way. Now gold pays no returnit simply sits looking beautiful, but does nothing. Doesnt inflation have to appear with higher rates? I am borrowing largely from my reading and would cite Stephen Leeb on this matter: "When real interest rates are "negative," the surest bet is gold. Our simple rule for buying gold is to buy when real rates are negative. During such times, gold goes crazy and you just cant own enough of it."

Such reasoning, I believe, has prompted people like David Malpass to say that lowering interest rates "would allow gold and commodity prices to recover moderately from their current deflation-spooked levels and end the talk of world deflation."

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:04 - ID#249453)
short term gold top
Gold/gold stocks are starting to get publicity which may mean they are close to a short term top. IMHO, they are ripe now to go down with the general market if the crash scenario takes place. A 20% drop will not make the XAU reach new lows and may only be a second wave decline with an impressive third wave to shortly follow. I think the XAU has a good shot to break the 100 mark by Oct 2 ( which would put gold around the 334 price area )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:08 - ID#335379)
Hello all:
Nick Guarno and co. keeps trying to have me give them $5000 for a subscription to there wealth busting program. is there any legitimacy to this nonsense. I am already to poor to participate having lost over half of my portfolio value since following these differrent guys. I have seen someone on our forum say they haven't seen nick be that accurite. He is offering to make us all millionares by december.
I would do it if some of you really thought it was worth it. My gold portfolio would make me a half millionare if gold moved to four hundred. Should I really throw in the towel to do his program?
Feedback Please.

Nicodemus, Still searching for the truth...
Ps: His idea of buying gold fututres 2 years ago would would have been a sure trip to the poor house!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:13 - ID#387243)
@HighRise - PSGQF
153,000 shares traded @ $0.03 is less than $5,000 of market action, most of which is probably commissions. Forget the 9% gain, it's just the difference between the bid and ask. The only people who should be buying this stock are those who are closing out shorts.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:14 - ID#43460)
interesting day for ggo, asl
Looks like there were 2 big winners today in our favorite market sctor. Too bad I don't have any of either, but I'm sticking with my present portfolio for the forseeable future.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:16 - ID#237299)
interesting, that's the same approximate valuation of the special drawing right measured in gold: .0040oz

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:16 - ID#43460)
Sorry, I forget that aol searches don't carry over. Here is a yahoo URL

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:21 - ID#287279)
Things are rarely as good or as bad as they seem.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:23 - ID#43460)
Thoughts on Clinton
I talked to a lady at work today who told me that yes, she'd vote for Mr. Clinton again. Further, she believed that all people of ethnic minority status should vote straight Democratic ticket to advance the Party. I asked her whether she'd vote for George Wallace the right wing Democrat who nearly got the nomination in 1972 over Colin Powell the centrist Republican who turned down the chance at it in 1996. She said in that case she'd have to go with Wallace. Go figure.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:24 - ID#335379)
Hello Voyeur Proffesser:
I also am not an expert monitary authority. What is so commonly believed is that it is inflation that causes gold to go up. Rather it is after the beginning of a deflationary spiral that gold shines. I personally believe that many of the true indicators of real interest rates and monitary values are intensionally hidden throught the means of a completely variable foriegn exchange mechanism. I also of the mind htat real inerest rates are in fact ZERO. CAse in point that the Japanese have loaned us money at 1% to buy thier goods. IE Reverse trade deficite econmy. We sell them worthless paper debt, print more cash, buy thier stuff and call it even. Then they want to resell us our bonds. What does Uncle give them in retrun? Bond face value. Almost no appriciation.
Gold it seems to me will be trapped in a price fix for some time until people can't really use USDs. That would mean even if rates were programmed as higher from the fed, to defend the dollar they would not or could not lend the stuff. Because noone would be able to prove credit worthiness. And who would want it? If by then gold is the money to have people will be rushing to get rid of dollars.
As I look at all the above it seems like a mad man's writing. Use only if it helps.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:26 - ID#433143)
Ok heres my contribution for the day...
A very nice desktop background for all the coin lovers here.. 1024x768
And if you arent running a 1024 desktop yet with a Good refresh rate then you need to get one... Unless you are OLD and cant see! hehe j/k

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:28 - ID#219363)
US Markets
Now it's up to John and Suzie Q. Public in my humble opinion. Will they see the last week as "building a base" for a rally, or was today the move that accelerates this thing down ? Look! It's a flying pig! People were willing to suspend disbelief for a long time, but everyone knows there's no such thing as a flying pig. These P/E numbers are still a joke.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:31 - ID#263254)
Starr's 400 page report is supposed to be available for preview
on the internet tomorrow at the following website:

The beans are gonna get spilled. I can hardly wait.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:34 - ID#390415)
Take me to your leader
You know, there is a classic work called "The Prince" by Machiavelli, written in the 16th century or so. It is about how to maintain political power in the absence of any hindering concerns for morality. Primarily as a result of that one book, the word "Machiavellian" has come to mean "marked by cunning, duplicity, or bad faith". There is no doubt that Bill Clinton has read it. My daughter is reading it now in her college honors seminar.

Here is a quote from that book. This is the section that we all need to decide, does this apply to our president?

"A prince [ruler], then, must be very careful not to say a word which does not seem inspired by the five qualities I mentioned earlier [compassion, good faith, integrity, kindness, religiousness]. To those seeing and hearing him, he should appear a man of compassion, a man of good faith, a man of integrity, a kind and a religious man. And there is nothing so important as to seem to have this last quality. Men in general judge by their eyes rather than by their hands; because everyone is in a position to watch, few are in a position to come in close touch with you. Everyone sees what you appear to be, few experience what you really are."

Of course, he goes on to say, a ruler must be not at all a man of compassion, good faith, integrity, kindness, and religiousness, for these only get in the way of his single-minded goal of preserving and extending his own power. He must simply be very careful to "appear" that way.

Everyone sees what you appear to be, few experience what you really are.

Go gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:36 - ID#173274)
@the scene
G-Nutz -- Not too shabby! Makes me feel right at home. I don't believe it'll make good wallpaper though as it ain't 'paper'. However, it certainly does make my 'puter 'shine'!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:38 - ID#194129)
Does anyone have any flea powder for my RANGY - the only dog in my gold stock portfolio? Was this the only gold stock not participating in the recent rally? Sure is a mongrel at this point. Can anybody offer any hope? I'm assuming it's battered by the DROOY share dilution - any other news?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:39 - ID#348286)
Robert Rubin just said on NBC news that the Pres and the white house are focused on all issues and undistracted by the looming impeachment.
Stop It Already ............

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:44 - ID#317193)
From what SDRer has posted it should be. What that all means to the price of gold is beyond me, I think.

Does seem the price is controlled. When do "they" want it to rise or fall. Seems they are a little early to be doing this now. So, perhaps, gold stays around $290-$295.

We watch this ne...never mind??


(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:46 - ID#190411)
The full URL for the report posting is

Bill Buckler
(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:46 - ID#256381)
Gold and Interest Rates
Voyeur Professor ( 18:04 ) First, a comment. The fact that Gold broke above the $US 290 level today is significant from a long-term technical perspective. It has caused an upturn in my $US 5x3 P&F chart, and put what looks increasingly like a solid floor under Gold at or about $US275.

The relevant charts and commentary have been updated at the Privateer website.

To discern the effect of higher interest rates on Gold, you have to ask yourself why interest rates are rising, assuming that they are. We are talking about market rates here, not official rates that are manipulated at whim by Central Bankers.

Market rates can rise because of an increased demand for lendable funds. Or - they can rise because of what Austrian Economists call a "risk premium". A risk premium is a component of the rate of interest which rises when the risk of holding the currency in which the debt is denominated is seen to have increased.

When interest rates rise because of an increase in the risk premium, that is invariably very bullish for Gold. The classic example is the late 1970s.

So far, the stampede towards any perceived place of financial safety is having just the opposite effect on U.S. market rates. Today, 30 year yields dropped almost 10 basis points while 10 year yields fell almost 20. But the Dollar itself is still falling.

I think it is fairly clear that if and when Treasury bond yields start to rise, it will be because of an increase in the perceived risk premium. And that, unequivocably, will be good for gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:50 - ID#173274)
@the scene
G-Nutz -- Actually, you don't need to use the 1024x768 display option. If one goes into 'settings'; Display; and on the 'background' section of the form there is a 'display' setting one can set to 'center', that'll clear up any wierd unwanted color sparkles that probably are viewed. I'm running Win98 at 800x600 resolution and it looks/works just fine!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:51 - ID#348286)
@Analysts are still ignoring the Gold sector
Almost every interview I see, Gold isn't even mentioned. Ordinary investors are still largely out of this sector - due mainly to the Stock Analyst Bias against Gold.
Recent headline Example:
"U.S. drug stocks seen as haven amid market turmoil - Reuters - Thu 6:25pm"
Drug stocks - yeah right........
This strange situation makes me even more bullish on the Gold sector. Only the people "in the know" are buying this sector.
This leaves the bulk of the money yet to make an entry into Gold.
Bullish, Yes?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:52 - ID#288186)
Nicodemus; Before you send in 5,000 bucks to Nick, let me fill you in on a
few things...
I am one of those suckers who fell for it. Over two years ago, I
got a subscription to his WSU ( Wall Street Underground ) newsletter.
This would have been around mid-1996. I was convinced, for various
reasons, that Gold was going to take off from the 400 dollar level.
His newsletter convinced me that inflation was around the corner
and that Gold was about to soar! Well, he also proclaimed that the
Stock market was about to crash, the Yen to soar, oil to soar, etc.
Remember, this was back in 1996. ( Actually, his claims go back even
further, like 1994/1995 ) .
Well, I also fell for the "get rich in futures" BS that he threw
in his WSU. He sold a fax service for 5000 bucks that would give
you quick faxes that directed you to buy/sell futures in Gold, Silver,
S&P500, T-bonds, and maybe a couple of others.
I ordered this service about the time gold was hanging around 400.
Well, as you know, it trickled its way down, ever so nicely, and
here we are today. The really bad thing was that I didn't have any
knowledge about Central Banks, manipulations, gold leasing, etc.
I didn't know about this site until about April of this year.
So when gold would drop, say ten to fifteen dollars, I would either
sell or hang on with potential losses. Nick would come out with a
fax or state in his newsletter that he didn't think it would go much lower. Of course, I'd buy back in, and get hit again. This continued
on and on. I, of course, have lost alot of money. Part of me wants to
blame him, but part of me knows that I am solely to blame ( greed, stupidity, lack of knowledge,etc ) . I won't go into any more gory details,
Nicodemus, cause I think you got the picture. If you want to trade futures, just be very very careful. Yes, alot of money can be made, but as you can see, alot of money can be lost. The only glimmer of hope I have, to recover some of my losses, is to stay in and play the game. I'm
much more careful now, and I'll bail out of futures ( set loss limits ) when
I need to. If you want any more info, ask.
By the way, I would say NO to any of Nick's stuff! Let this site be your guide and buy physical. Proceed with caution, like many kitcoites state
here, if you plan to trade paper...
Good Luck! Go Gold! Go Silver! Fox-man

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:54 - ID#227238)
gagnrad (Thoughts on Clinton):
LOL! Just one more example of our informed and thoughtful electorate. Simply amazing. .... and amazingly stupid. OTOH, she cannot be faulted for inconsistency.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:55 - ID#220183)
Gold Bugs of Aussie
Check this site

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:56 - ID#257312)

I would say keep your 5 grand. The analysis
here at Kitco is as good as there is
anywhere. NOBODY can predict markets so well
as to justify a 5,000 fee, IMHO. What
insight, I wonder, can Nick Guarano provide
that is not available here at Kitco. As an example, about a year ago I subscribed to a Y2Knewsletter at $150/year. Due to posters such as sharefin, EJ, Miro, Compgeek, etc., I have a better grasp of the problem than this
newsletter guy. I won't be renewing. I would wager, if you are a regular reader at Kito, you probably have at least as good a grasp of Gold, world politics, and the ins and outs of trading markets, as ANY financial guru. the most conistently accurate posters here are bullish on Gold. I pay a LOT of attention to that.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:56 - ID#390415)
Fascinating memo
Actual US Government memo from 1974 ( just after Nixon's resignation ) , discussing the issue of whether or not to prosecute Richard Nixon for obstruction of justice, etc., after his resignation.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 18:57 - ID#219363)
Does anyone have his little ditty recently, the one being quoted as saying he is going to lower rates. I'm tired of hearing regurgitated stuff about it and want to read it for myself. I have serious doubts that Greenspan will do anything to rates ( up or down ) for quite a while.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:00 - ID#229207)
Very true. Inventing a great drama even where none exists is entertaining but never profitable. Seeing reality clearly and reponding to it rationally is profitable, but not much fun.

Humans see things as either better or worse than they really are. Thus bull and bear markets. It is also human nature to deny a bad situation in order to not confront it. In general humans hate change, but the world is always changing so the effort to maintain the status quo takes enormous energy.

A major change as we now subjected to brings all of these conflicting and contradictory aspects of human nature into play. Thus it is very hard to predict the outcome.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:01 - ID#348286)
@Rate cut in England also Hinted + AG US Rate Cut = Print money and re-inflate Global Economy !
Bank of England stands pat on rates But offers strong hint that an easing may be in the future

REUTERSLONDON, Sept. 10 The Bank of England left its key interest rate steady at 7.50 percent Thursday but delivered a strong hint that global financial turmoil may soon oblige it to start cutting. Business and union leaders, who have long urged the banks Monetary Policy Committee to cut rates and take the heat out of a strong pound, reacted with dismay to its lack of action.
 GOVERNMENT BONDS and interest rate futures, though, hit new peaks on a growing perception the next move will be downward.
   Sterling shed more than a pfennig against the German mark to drop below 2.84 marks, its lowest level in nearly a year, and bringing its losses in the past two weeks to more than 14 pfennigs.
   The committees decision, which had been predicted by all 21 economists polled recently by Reuters, was accompanied by a statement saying the nine-member committee felt global events may push the UK inflation rate below its target.
   The statement said the committee had discussed extensively the potential impact of international developments on British inflation and would continue to monitor the situation.
   This was the first time the panel has issued a statement with a no change decision and follows a monetary easing by Japan on Wednesday and recent comments by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan indicating a rate rise was no longer on the cards in the United States.
   The Bank of Englands comments are bound to fuel speculation of coordinated action to ease global monetary conditions in the wake of financial crises in Asia and Russia.
   The bank also showed it was not deaf to the cries of industry for a signal that rates have peaked to ease some of the upward pressure on the pound, which despite recent falls is still more than 20 percent higher in trade-weighted terms than it was two years ago.
   

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:03 - ID#119358)
oil and gas production company owner, recording studios, indie record co., ranching and cattle, some commercial real estate and family man.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:04 - ID#224151)
I was taught that fundamentals tell you what the company is doing. TA tells one how the
companys shares are doing ( which includes the fundamental influence ) . & in the final
analysis it is funds ( Money/Credit ) availability and perception that dictates share
direction. Much of the recent Bullish share movement has been on borrowed
money ( I.E.leveraged ) .With many investors now leveraged to the hilt and perceiving a
sinking Market... fear and panic will not be far behind. Meanwhile...Good as Gold is
becoming an operative expression again as the yellow metal is seen to resume its
intrinsic value role. The reality now is that Stock Markerts are falling and that Gold is

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:05 - ID#72316)
If those guys knew what they were talking about , do you think they would tell you??


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:06 - ID#348286)
I agree with your comments 100%. Stay away from Gold paper, unless your face is glued all day to a terminal. It's a domain for the pros, and even they get skunked.
Physical and cheap quality shares all the way.........

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:08 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Envy -- If Greespin doesn't come through with a fairly decent rate decrease REAL quickly, the markets ARE going to find a lower P/E! And they might anyway!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:09 - ID#119358)
@AKAU......rangitO, the thriller stock.....(not for the heart impaired)........
oh yeah, rangitO, it went down today right after I bought some more@21/32 ....ohmy. why wouldn't it? salud!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:09 - ID#32078)
Rally short term or long term?
As much as I am enjoying this rally, I am not happy with the dropping of the long term rate about .10% to 5.17 as mentioned by Bill Buckler. This is not consistent with a solid rally and may be an indication that we will soon hit a resistence level and peter out. If it's a measure of the money coming in from Brazil, it is not a good sign for gold. Tomorrow may tell.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:13 - ID#290172)
TYoung & Obsidian: Well Done! {:-))
Step II.


Now, isn't the Euro nicely situated for reserve currency status?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:14 - ID#254321)
I want rising interest rates?
Voyeur Professor: Did not have time to read all of your post yet -- taking son out for last dinner with all of family before college -- in a few minutes.
Actually, I fear rising interest rates, because that will probably mean the drop in the US dollar is threatening the world financial system -- like what happened in 1987, and Hollywoodized in 'Rollover'.
Yes -- rising interest rates like that would be good for gold equities -- for a time, only. But only for a short time if a world financial crisis is pending, like in 1987.
What puzzles me is how the US dollar can drop so rapidly without causing US interest rates to rise. There may be something novel regarding what is happening behind the scenes. Derivative related? Or -- it could be the inertia of the system, because a general fear that the US dollar is about to fall is not yet there.
I wish I knew.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:14 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Studio -- 'Never thought I could make the price go down just by buying it'; An Oldman pseudo quote!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:15 - ID#240241)
gold up $.70 overseas.
finally enjoying holding my RYO & ECO.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:16 - ID#257344)
CBS News just reported that the Starr report contains eleven counts for impeachment.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:21 - ID#119358)
wish I'd said dat. makes perfect sense to me! ;^ ) ~

Bart could charge $100. access fee for the next 48 hours of Kitcoville...and probably get it! Should be a Gas, Gas, Gas!!!!

G&P to YA EldO!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:21 - ID#343171)
I'd say from 6 months personal experience as a Gene Inger subscriber that he is fantastic at long/short equity trading and daily s&p500 trading. Recently he shorted CAT MMM AMZN YHOO and a few others for great gains. Also got into 70% cash in April ( ? ) , great long success with mostly tech stuff.
You can read his weekly over at golden-eagle, he posts a partial freebie, he also has a daily and a 900 trade line he uses for extremely profitable s&p trading. He has also stayed clear of gold during its 2 year drop, anyway he is well worth the subscription, which is 1/10th Guarinos.

Check out a sample updated today:

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:21 - ID#119358)
wish I'd said dat. makes perfect sense to me! ;^ ) ~

Bart could charge $100. access charge for the next 48 hours of Kitcoville...and probably get it! Should be a Gas, Gas, Gas!!!!

G&P to YA EldO!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:22 - ID#237299)
Seems to me it means we're Scrw..d, not that that was in doubt. But if the "one-world gov" boys have already pegged the euro to end up
being equivalent to the SDR, and if you envision the america's being united in a single currency called, let's say the "noro", and then there being a pacific rim currency, say the "asio", each, equally being the equivalent of the SDR, a further, that these eventually coalesce into the end goal of a one world currency, ...well then it's obvious, ( if this paranoid hypothesis is true ) , that "they" will continue to force gold to trade in narrower and narrower ranges. They *have* to, because the integrety of the euro and by extension, the eventual single currency, cannot tolerate anything outside itself as reference point.

Not hard ( for them ) to control it; if they continue to expand the paper
gold out there, ( in the form of producer forward selling and hedging ) that act by it's very nature has a self leveling effect on gold prices- we've been watching it for months. This coupled with constant rumor BS' to suppress gold if it seeks to act as a threat to the dollar ( which is a pseudo-euro ) and the up comming euro itself.

Months ago, ANOTHER spoke of the target range they were shooting for, ( 260ish? ) and hinted it would be the Arabs that busted it out. About the same time there was a thread on the BIS where someone showed through the math that converting the franc reserves came up with the same figure.

The ONLY thing, IMHO, that will save any of us, is if some stampede by joe sixpac overwhelms the central bank's ability to suppress trading ranges. Lacking this, our gold will never be worth much more or less than it is now.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:22 - ID#290172)
Oblique ref to "measured in gold: .0040oz"
TYoung--it is amazingly straightforward once one has the key
in hand. Whether, given the Dreadful D's, they be able to bring
it off quite as they intended is another question. They had rowed the dollar scull, against a pretty strong current mind you, to .96
in August 97...but Asia happened, etc. I'll get some hard facts
collated and update the view ASAP. {:- )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:23 - ID#269128)
As the bull's blood gushes into the Street....
the clamour for a scapegoat grows.....CLINTON,CLINTON,CLINTON!


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:26 - ID#413307)
@ Envy: I agree. Don't hold your breath for a rate drop.
He has threatened a rate rise for well over a yr. and did nothing.
Now he hints at inflating. He will do nothing until this market
crashes, then he will inflate.

If he lowers too soon, he reinflates the equity bubble. Crash.
If he lowers too late, we still deflate, market crashes, dollar crashes
and then hyperinflation is the only way out of depression.

What a mess! The only thing I am relatively sure of is that the
Americans will inflate like mad to head off a depression, and that
will bring home a huge chunk of that 7 1/2 trillion dollars held by
foreign intersts. They will try to spend it in the US, and that
means hyperstagflation or depflation. This is good for all holders
of physical assets, particularly pms, particularly silver. IMHO

And then the Europeans will be introducing the EURO, and I think they
will give the USD a push down, by limiting or eliminating gold leases.

The thing everybody must realize is that inflation is a form of taxation.
Governments benefit by inflation. Nobody benefits by a deflation.
They will inflate, but only when forced by a crash. Next week?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:32 - ID#237299)
it seems the light clicked on in both our heads at the same time

Voyeur Professor
(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:35 - ID#231101)

Certainly we agree that in normal bear markets, if investors sell Treasuries, then U.S. debt that has been significantly supported by foreign investment will have to be assumed by taxpayers in the form of rising interest rates. But what of our present deflationary global scenario? Isn't the argument that a rate cut, which would be inflationary, would be bullish for gold? Malpess believes that pumping massive liquidity into global markets by a rate cut would head off deflation. At the same time, won't it prove inflationary and good for gold? I'm assuming an emergent and paradoxical, new paradigm whereby a manipulated inflation becomes necessary to save the world from deflation and eventual global depression, and simultaniously bullish for gold which thrives on inflation. I believe the G7 may be on the road to such a monetary oxymoron!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:35 - ID#229207)
Interesting coverage of today's events on
They even mention the "G" word ( : O )

On oil stocks, maybe word got out that Yeltsin's new choice is a old commie who's pals with Saddam, accoring to brother Oris's report this a.m.

-EJ News Center

Market Wrap
Another bloody day on Wall Street has come and
gone and investors are once again on edge in the
face of President Clinton's mounting legal
problems and the threat of Brazil devaluing its
currency. The DJIA ( sm ) was down 345 points at
its intra-day low before rebounding in the final
twenty minutes of trading to finish down 249 at
7615. Where the market goes next is up for debate.
The bears see today's slide as one more step on
the road to Dow 7000, while bulls view it as retest
of last weeks low. Tomorrow should present a
buying opportunity judging from the rebound in
the final twenty minutes of trading, however, the
issues that caused todays drop have not been
resolved so any rally could be short-lived.

Oil and Gold Stocks Buck Downward Trend

Oil and gold stocks were the only issues to buck
the downward trend on Wall Street today. Gold
stocks benefited from a decline in the dollar
versus the Japanese yen and German mark,
making dollar priced gold attractive to investors
using foreign currencies to purchase the
commodity. Oil stocks were reacting to a report by
the American Petroleum Institute that U.S. oil
inventories were experiencing a larger than
expected decline and reports of escalating
tensions between the U.N. and Iraq.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:35 - ID#257312)

Just heard that Clinton will address the nation on TV tonight, and will be introduced by Hillary. Can't confirm this yet. What will it be? Resignation, "I'm really really sorry", or will he go on the attack?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:36 - ID#173274)
@the scene
obsidian -- Price controls and currency controls. That's the only way it could ever ( for a couple minutes ) be accomplished within a debt-based system within a world full of debt. People will vote for barter before that, and already are throughout the world in those countries unfortunate enough to be the first in this time-frame to experience it.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:37 - ID#342376)
@ rhody
You may have posted already and I missed it, but what's going on with gold lease rates? If they start to climb in the next few days, I'll be more excited than I am already.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:38 - ID#290172)
Obsidian--The Great Currency Heist is an operation
that NEEDS to have a little light on it! {:- ) )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:38 - ID#119358)
Brother Bill will probably read to us his favorite scriptures and then the lead the nation in a prayer. it will be beautiful.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:40 - ID#30126)
You know it's a busy day for
gold when you can't get in to Kitco. :- )

You got to love that Globex game... Take it down 20 handles yesterday then take it up 20 handles... :- ) ) Is this what they mean by volatility? :- ) ) Like a piece of wire bent too many times, let's see how long the bulls can take this before breaking... On another front, the most sensible piece of talk on the boob tube was on the NBR tonight. Their guest said something like, ' Forget about what was in your 401K, that's history. It is what it is as of today. Remember your LONG TERM plan...' That's the first tacit admission of the real market situation.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:42 - ID#242325)
Clinton and the markets
Now is for all investors to think about what the markets might do after Clinton resigns. A huge rally? Do not bet against it. But probably from significantly lower levels; something like Dow 6500-7000.

Gold and oil continue to move up together -- excellent news for investors in both sectors. Oil service index jumped over 7% today -- not too far behind XAU.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:42 - ID#290172)
STUDIO.R "Brother Bill will probably read to us his favorite scripture"
from Song of Solomon ( Song of Songs ) no doubt? {:- ) )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:43 - ID#413307)
@ all: As of Sept 4, one month lease rates are back down to
0.41% from 0.45% This indicates decline in shorting activity, but
also huge supplies of cheap gold to short with. At these lease rates,
gold is going to have all kinds of trouble rising past $300.

This is not the bull. We are just waffling around above the lows.
Lease rates move up before the spot POG moves up. This is not the
bull because the public is not buying, there is not enough fear yet.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:44 - ID#226307)
stock market crash -- update
There's an old saying among chartist -- triple bottoms never hold.
That being the case, the triple bottom at DJIA 7500 won't hold.
Then the question is: When will the DJIA break below 7500?

I believe there's a good chance it'll happen tomorrow. Today,
virtually every global market break down below there triple
bottoms. It's only a question of time before the panic gets
going here.

Gold and gold stocks are looking good. The stock market looks
like it ready for a massive panic and crash.

Watch for DJIA 3000 later this month.


Steve Puetz

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:44 - ID#229207)
Baaaaaah! Baaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
The sheeple are bleating heavily tonight and a few more will try to squeeze out through the gate tomorrow.

After a hard day at the office Joe Sheeple comes home, cracks open a beer, turns on the news and what does he see? The president of his country mewling on national television and footage of trading floor scrambling with the voice-over, "On Wall Street, the market had another down day..."

"Screw this, Marge. Tomorrow I'm moving my 401K into a nice safe bond fund!"



(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:45 - ID#173274)
@the scene
SDR -- Currencies; Aren't those the paper thingies that slosh to and fro about the world to reward and punish various countries to further enslave their populace in new rounds of lower and lower standards of 'living'?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:46 - ID#17077)
Cheerlead all you want, guys. Tell me just one more time how wonderful everything out there really is! Sis Boom Bah, rah, rah, rah!

The mass equities investor psychology has changed and it is growing increasingly negative with each passing day. New populist perceptions are taking hold as our world undergoes swift, radical change. It is a global snowball and there appears to be no immediate known fix. Hopefully, it will ultimately resolve itself in a better more equitable world.

Eventually, the negative psychology will spillover to bonds ( interesting to hear the bonds trader interviewed on CNBC today who described the bonds market as a "bubble" with people throwing their money at without proper and due consideration. I almost thought I would choke in disbelief...just as I almost choked when CNBC talked up the value of gold today. Felt like I was in "The Twilight Zone!" ) .

Gee, I wonder where the Big Boys are moving their money now? Duh??

Anyway, I wish you guys the best of luck.



Bully Beef
(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:47 - ID#259282)
Hi My name is Abbey (HI ABBEY!)and I'm new here. I'm a stockaholic. No matter what happens I just
Respond..."we are in a Bull Market! Buy the dips ! Buy the dips!" I just can't stop no matter what the market does. I don't know what to do? I need the twelve steps. I might even be wrong and all these brokerage firms keep pushing money at me to keep saying Bull, Bull, Bull.... Could I be saved if I repented and bought Gold?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:47 - ID#237299)
Vote for barter?!, instead of a completely debt based system??!!
Did YOU vote for the debt based system we have?? It's a fait accompli
I'm afraid.

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:48 - ID#173262)
jims.....One last SSRIF comment for now

PH in LA
(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:51 - ID#225408)
Shame, Degradation and Capitulation in the Jihad.
Well, well, well! So RJ/Jujube/Realistic is "done talking to PH in LA for all time!" Because "he ( PH ) just has nothing to say that interests him in the slightest". So let's get this straight. When someone has nothing to say to RJ, he stops talking to that person.

Rather looks like an example of a totally self-centered concept of communication, it does!

But it certainly doesn't mean that I have nothing more to say to him. On the contrary.

It's a cheap, intellectually light-weight bully of a jihad warrior that he turns out to be, after all. As long as he can pick and choose his targets among what he considers "liers and/or morally bankrupt, ignorant madmen" he promises a fight "to the death". A couple of broadsides from what he concedes is a "talented communicator" and he folds up. No fight left in him. Just threatens to beat up harder on his victim in retaliation for any further slaps and shots from me. Very brave.

Of course, what else would we expect from a former military man who has to fall back on his basic training by saying "You have no honesty and therefor you have no integrity". After all, he himself, with all his various identities is a paragon of honesty and integrity, isn't he? Incidentally, just how does an "honest" ex-military man explain his multiplicity of identities, anyhow? And just what lies does he accuse me of telling? They are nowhere to be found in any of his cut and paste masterpieces.

But then, he also accuses me of "whining" and "twisting his words". It seems like just the other day that he was offering himself as a shining example of intellectual integrity. He "stood by every word he had ever written", he did, back then. And defied me to paste away. Now he is reduced to whimpering that I just "twist ( his ) words into pretzels" and "become a liar in the process." If that isn't whining, just what is it?

And then, when I had the temerity to rip away his carefully constructed mask of anonimnity, exposing his Realistic as just another phony personality, what was his reaction? In a burst of creativity, he invents his "FarPHoungD thing", charging that four of his critics are actually a construct of his one, single enemy. Well, what else should we expect? After all, it's just exactly what they accuse him of doing. That's creativity, isn't it? Rather convenient, too, it is! No need to face four critics in four different fights. No need to face anyone other than his own invention. That shouldn't offer any problem, should it? In a Jihad, anything is fair, because the ends justify the means, right? Also, that way there is no explanation needed for the fact that four separate posters seem to take exception to his behavior. They are all the same person! Yes, everyone does still like him, really!...except for that miserable "FarPHoungD thing", which is just an invention anyway! Very convenient. Very brave.

Of course, creativity is exactly what RJ/Jujube/Realistic does best. Farfel used to charge him with waging a propaganda war against gold. Called him a whore, he did! That was stupid then, and some of us commented on it at the time. So what could be more creative than doing the same thing right back to the "FarPHoungD thing", now? Accuse it of "furthering its own private agenda". Just what agenda, anyway? Farfel used to say that he was anti-gold. Now accuse Farfel of "waging a war against the PGMs". Farfel used to accuse him of distorting the facts, etc. Accuse him of the same thing, now. That's very creative! Farfel was repetitive. Well, that can work, too. Smother the forum with the same posts over and over. Keep asking the same pointless questions about automobiles, etc. All that's creative, isn't it? Well, isn't it?

And speaking of bravery, it did kind of scare him, it did, the remark that his intentional amalgamation of Farfel and Steve Puetz's identities smacked of libel and slander. After all, Steve Puetz is well-known to all of us. Has his own newsletter, I hear. It would seem unlikely that he would appreciate being intentionally confused with Farfel in public by a recognized broker at Monex. Sent him scurrying to his lawyers, that remark did. They assured him that he had no problem, since he doesn't even know who Farfel is. Almost looks like he forgot to mention to them that he does know perfectly well who Steve Puetz is. Oh well, that wouldn't really matter. After all, that's Jihad! Just have to talk to those lawyers again. They'll know what to do. Because the brave always help each other out. That's how they get so brave.

And what would a Jihad be without threats. Threats can be the epitome of bravery...I think, sometimes, maybe... Well it always worked in the interrogation room, didn't it? So RJ/Jujube/Realistic comes up with, "You bring this crap to K1 and I will deal with it in another entirely creative way that is bound to get murmurs of amazement and approval from the collected masses there." Obviously, this kind of scares him, too, though: Just the thought that any of this might just possibly end up over at K-1. Wouldn't do! Might just rock that "honesty/integrity" thing to its core.

What core?

Why, the creative artist, who "tells it like it is" myth/core that has been so long in developement. He "gets paid for writing, so one could say this is an extension of his job", he proudly tells us and asks, "Whats in it for you?"

Well, I'll just let him in on something. I've been an artist all my life. Get paid for it, too. I learned long ago what distinguishes one artist from another. It is not the technique. Nope, not the phrasing, the correct grammar, the intonation, the inspired wording, the beauty of tone, the technique. None of the above. It's the content! It's what you say...not how you say it. How you say it is taken for granted. Has to be there before you get to artist level. Just the given basic. After that, it's all content. With RJ/Jujube/Realistic,that's the part that still needs work.

This Farfel Jihad has no content. Rj/Jujube/Realistic knows this in his heart. It was a mismatch from the beginning and it was flogged to death long ago. And with me, he has no real fight either. I have said so many times. He's said so, too, on occasion. It's not personal. I don't even know him...he doesn't know me. It's ideas! He knows it is. He knows that my "anger is over something else entirely - and he knows what it is, and he had nothing to do with it" and he bravely proclaims it so. But he obviously prefers not to drag it out into the light, like he claims to want to do to Farfel. He is right, though! It is over something else. And at the same time, it's also all about intellectual integrity. I have never pretended to particularly admire most of what Farfel repeated over and over. I said so then. I say so now. I am not defending Farfel! Never have been, except to point out that he is a human being, too, like the rest of us. I am not his ally, much less part of his personality. Don't have much to do with TYoung or HenryD, either. But RJ/Jujube/Realistic wants to let his "something else" just go away. It doesn't, any more than Farfel's past transgressions will just go away.

In the real world, it might be resolvable over a beer ( probably with TYoung, the beer expert present ) by hashing it out, both sides giving their account with explanations, etc. until it disappears. Because there is not much real disagreement there, either. Besides, it actually happened a rather long time ago. But this technique only works if both parties want to, and are willing to be honest with each other. RJ/Jujube/Realistic is reluctant to do that in public.


Like Farfel, he lives with the consequences of his actions.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:51 - ID#119358)
That is a truly beautiful selection. amen. A favorite of mine and Brother Jimmy Swaggart. However, Brother Clitton is well known for his mighty powerful bentadickshun. glory!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:51 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Old Gold -- If Jeils S&P chart is even worth a half a 'damn', and if one were to correlate a Clinton resignation with the bottom of the market declines, that would peg April or May of next year. That is one way I look at it.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:54 - ID#93241)
Hi, Abbey
First you have to admit you are powerless over stocks--that your life has become unmanageable. If you are having difficulties with this concept, seek out a goldbug and get their advice.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:55 - ID#177105)
Obsidian and SDRer....
The deal is that the Euro will be backed by gold, the dollar is not...yet. The premise must be a gold rise to make the Euro strong against the dollar at or after Jan 1. The Euro is in a war with the US$. I do not believe this is a friendly game of currency warfare. It is a fight for supremecy.

What has gone before, the rumors, Switzerland selling, etc. was all part of a plan. The US is not part of the plan except to be the loser.

Rememmber, transfer or sale of gold to the ECB will result in a windfall profit to the member CB's. So, what's the plan? I dunno.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:56 - ID#190411)
For Greenspan speach, try

Go to the top entry where it says Dow/Nikkei

The "Irrational Exuberence" thing is there also.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:58 - ID#93241)
Next, Abbey... have to believe that a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity. Again, if you are having trouble with this concept, seek out a goldbug for advice. ( ain't the Blue Book beautiful? )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:58 - ID#173274)
@the scene
obsidian -- Re: yours and SDRs currency scenario. Doesn't that mean FIXED rates on everything? Doesn't it mean fixed prices on everything? How can that be done in a usury-based system? CAN'T! And as in Russia, S.E. Asia, and elsewheres, people ARE having to resort to barter. So you were saying, what? That another debt-based usury system is going to come along and cure it all? RIGHT!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:59 - ID#411259)
Today was a Good Day


Those that bought gold for delivery in the $270s are very pleased. The funny thing about it is this: Almost this entire forum was looking or worrying for gold to drop further. Much talk of $250. After two years of being an unabashed gold bear, I loudly recommended to my clients to buy gold. I posted on this site my ever so warm feelings over our lovely yellow lass. Apart from the usual perma-bulls, doom and gloom hung over Kitco like a cloud. Im no better than picking bottoms than anybody else - they are where they are - but gold does feel as if we have seen the worst.

Expect some buy stops to rally gold a bit further in early Asian trade, just in time for producers to sell into the European market. This has been the pattern till now and is likely to continue, so I look for gold to be a couple dollars lower on the open tomorrow.

The Starr report throws a wrench into this theory though. If this hot and heavy impeachment talk can continue to pressure the dollar and worldwide equities, we could see $300 soon. I expect no higher that $294 though, before they stomp it a bit. If the dollar is to fall, better to lock in some of these high prices in Canada, Australia, and South Africa before it falls to much, yes?

Not to worry, buybacks will happen to support the lows.

Silver is overbought now and looks as if it could be whacked back down if someone is of a mind to. Rises in gold cannot help but spill into the silver market, so if the rally is on in gold, Im looking at 5.22 as the top of this runs potential. $4.80 is a comfortable resting place and I fear little below that.

Platinum seems to be waking up. Funds are buying at $360 and I would be flabbergasted to see lower than $350, but I was flabbergasted when it broke $390 on the way down so flabbergast is highly overrated. Let me instead say that long term support near $350 has an effective floor in place. The charts say $350 is the bottom, but every time it drops below $360, buys are waiting for it and it pops back up.

Did anybody notice that the spikes in the PGMs have happened immediately AFTER a shipment arrives in Japan? Seems that the metal gets there, is immediately absorbed, and others are left with empty hands and a yearning desire for their assembly lines to continue. This is sending these hapless souls into the spot market to haggle for what they can get. Im looking for backwardation to signal a strong move, but the October contract is nearing first delivery notice, when the contract month becomes the delivery month. The contract month is then spot and spot has no limits. If a squeeze develops, look for the first two weeks of October for the best action. I buying platinum here and lower. I love the stuff. Even a little rally to $400 looks good from here.

All metals UP!.
Starrs report OUT!
Clinton soon to be OUT!
( And take Hillary OUT with you )

Today was a good day.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:59 - ID#267255)
gagnrad ...... in the South, the kind of folk you referred to in your 18:23 are known as "yellow dog democrats". They mostly pull the straight ticket lever, and, IMHO, are just as dumb as dirt. I do truly wish that most of these "yellow dog dems" lived in a larger part of the country. By my reckoning, they give the South a terrible image. One of our local evening news casts tonight ran a "what do you think" sampling of the local community......... same basic result. Damn dumb-as* yellow dog democrats. I almost feel about this voter group as tolerant1 feels about the coward erect. After all, they are birds of a feather, are they not. Pisses me off. Damn dumb-a*s yellow dog democrats.

On ANOTHER topic, The currency war and liquidity crisis which we are beginning to see will be the catalyst for the final crash and result in ever escalating PM prices over the next few months. The liquidity issue will doom the equity markets, and the currency struggle should add the necessary fuel for the precious!! IMHO

Now you know what a yellow-dog democrat is.

good luck ......


(Thu Sep 10 1998 19:59 - ID#284235)
(Greenspan speech)
To Envy: if you check out Bill Buckler's site for The Privateer you will find what you are looking for. Let me know if you find where AG says anything about lowering interest rate, will you? Here is the URL:

sorry I can't figure how to make it active -oh, well!

Mountain Goat
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:00 - ID#35087)
Pink Floyd - Animals

Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away.
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out!
There may be dogs about!
I've looked over Jordan and I have seen, things are not what they seem.

What do you get for pretending the danger's not real?
Meek and obedient you follow the leaders
down well-trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes!
Now things are really what they seemed!
No, this is not a bad dream!

As I listened to this some days ago, the symbolism was far too strong to ignore. We'll see who get's 'slaughtered' in the coming weeks, I think.


MG ( Go Gold! ) ( Where's gogold? 3-2-5 on 11/11. I'm agreeing. )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:00 - ID#173274)
@the scene
TYoung -- The EURO is NOT backed with ANY gold!!! Gold will form a small percentage of its RESERVES. QUITE different!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:00 - ID#430182)
When gold up $2 in two days - buy
See you at $325 on 11/11

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:01 - ID#190411)
Bentadickshun ,,,, LOL, and still am.
I got some more of that RANGY too. Except it was at 41/64.
That turd can play the 64ths. So what, it went to 5/8.

Aragorn III
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:01 - ID#212323)
JTF...I'm glad you noticed my post to Alberich...I meant to include you in the subject line
Seems yours was the only response I could muster all day. I believe you are moving in the right direction. But again, US and Japan as two dogs on either end of the same leash--predictions won't hold. You'll have to put yourself in there shoes and walk awhile.

Aurator...thanks also for the kiwi update from my post yesterday...let's do bizness upon your return from travels. And when you hang your shingle, ensure that it is well fastened!

Barring an unforeseen event, I will be away for a number of days. Let's just say that a certain bear has a date with destiny. And I do not refer to the growing bear of Wall St.

September 22. For a fact. It's in your calendar.

got facts?

( I'll repeat from earlier--that which is known by everyone is worthless )

Greenstone Gold
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:03 - ID#427265)

.......going UP !

We need more of young Bill's deeds. ....

There was an intersting article in the local "rag", the Kalgoorlie Miner, yesterday.

"Attitude to GOLD a stark contrast"..... between Kalgoorlie and New York.

On Wall Street, almost nobody relies on a healthy gold price for a licving, they depend on paper assets.

In Kalgoorlie, or Western Australia for that matter, ALL depend on GOLD

The "DEATH GRIP" on GOLD does appear to loosen, with very large gyrations on Wall Street. Soon, we hope, there will be a new star to enter to centre stage, GOLD !

Now, what was that famous phrase.....

"I did not have sex with that woman......"

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:05 - ID#26793)
Mexican banks have virtually shutdown the loan window due to trading losses.

Mike Sheller
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:05 - ID#347447)
your 19:42 - Thanks for the chuckle. Slick. Will he?

PUETZ: Steve - sometimes triple bottoms do hold. Let us not become too orthodox and hidebound here, amigo.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:05 - ID#237299)
I don't agree. The Euro is not in competition to the dollar, even though they will use this idea to confuse us with nationalistic indignance.
That's just the fire and light show to confuse the masses. You know, like during the cold war, all the propaganda films against the satan communists, and now against the satan Moslems. it's just a front to distract attention. The goal is to get a single currency that everybody uses to buy widgets- as long as they run the printing presses.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:05 - ID#287279)
I am not so sure that Clinton is finished.
For a number of reasons.
1. There have been so many scandals during this administration that if the Republicans were serious about going after Clinton, the opportunities were there ( Travelgate, Filegate, Cattlegate, etc. ) .
Gingrich and his boys already demonstrated to me that they will not go after potentialy disasterous things such as Waco, Foster and Brown. It could prove too damaging and shake people's confidence in the establishment.
2. The Republicans would prefer to have a wounded and ineffective president in Clinton, instead of having Gore ( and give him the opportunity to campaign early ) .
3. Clinton will destroy everyone around him if he has to in order to save himself, and some Republicans are scared of that. Consequently, they may strike a deal, censure him and allow him to continue ineffective.
4. There are some Democrats who appear to have broken the ranks. I believe its for public's consumption ( hedging ) . Deep down inside all Democrats must know that Clinton's impeachment could destroy the party for a long time and could give the Republicans the control of the presidency and Congress. No Democrat wants that.
5. 15-20% of voters will stick with Clinton for political reasons regardless of his crimes. He can always count on them. They will stand behind him.
6. Everything that Clinton will be accused of in Starr's report can TECHNICALY be defended. Perjury, obstruction of justice etc. And Clinton will. All he needs is time. Two months to be exect. And you can bet that Democrats on the committee will try to help him buy it. After the elections it will be easier for Clinton.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:06 - ID#287279)
I am not so sure that Clinton is finished.
For a number of reasons.
1. There have been so many scandals during this administration that if the Republicans were serious about going after Clinton, the opportunities were there ( Travelgate, Filegate, Cattlegate, etc. ) .
Gingrich and his boys already demonstrated to me that they will not go after potentialy disasterous things such as Waco, Foster and Brown. It could prove too damaging and shake people's confidence in the establishment.
2. The Republicans would prefer to have a wounded and ineffective president in Clinton, instead of having Gore ( and give him the opportunity to campaign early ) .
3. Clinton will destroy everyone around him if he has to in order to save himself, and some Republicans are scared of that. Consequently, they may strike a deal, censure him and allow him to continue ineffective.
4. There are some Democrats who appear to have broken the ranks. I believe its for public's consumption ( hedging ) . Deep down inside all Democrats must know that Clinton's impeachment could destroy the party for a long time and could give the Republicans the control of the presidency and Congress. No Democrat wants that.
5. 15-20% of voters will stick with Clinton for political reasons regardless of his crimes. He can always count on them. They will stand behind him.
6. Everything that Clinton will be accused of in Starr's report can TECHNICALY be defended. Perjury, obstruction of justice etc. And Clinton will. All he needs is time. Two months to be exect. And you can bet that Democrats on the committee will try to help him buy it. After the elections it will be easier for Clinton. AND in order for him to be impeached many Dems will have to vote for impeachment. Will that happen?
Will Gingrich put the blame on Democrats for not impeaching Clinton?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:07 - ID#410194)
Please answer the question below.


Date: Thu Sep 10 1998 17:40
Realistic ( @farfel *** URGENT *** ) ID#410194:
Copyright  1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The bond market now close to a full 12 points ( !!! ) higher compared to March 3rd!

It's been an amazing bull market and just by following the charts it made it easy to manage some money in this market. And it's a good day to take some profits today.

Farfel, how much more money do you think your friends would have today to invest in Gold and Silver ( which are at LOWER prices than back around March 3rd ) if you wouldn't have kneeled down to beg them not to invest in the bond market?

Please let us know when you get a chance.


Date: Tue Mar 03 1998 22:03

I warned many friends to avoid this Wall Street propagandistic fact, I went down on my knees with some of them and BEGGED THEM not to place any monies in bonds. I categorically predicted the current bearish scenario now unfolding in the bond market; it will only exacerbate as the TORRENT of newly printed money ( printed in the aftermath of the October crash in order to maintain liquidity ) begins to hammer bonds even further over the short-term..

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:09 - ID#173274)
@the scene
IF gold can make it above todays highs, AND actually breaks up to the next resistance at/near 300, There WILL be a test and a retacement! THEN we'll see what it can muster. OK? And silver undoubtably will follow much the same scenario within its own set of numbers.

Mike Sheller
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:09 - ID#347447)
As to the divergence in realities between Kalgoorlie & New York, my only comment is...DUHHH. As a New Yawker born and bred, and in deference to my several and respected Australian and New Zealand amigos, I would have to say "You got that right." And whaddelse is New? And yet, I am a goldbug, thru and thru.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:10 - ID#219363)
@ERLE, Fummer
Thanks for the link, I'm off to read what Dr. G said and see if I can make any sense of it for myself. Check out this graph of the beloved DOW. Ugly. I wonder what it's going to do ? Hmmmm....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:11 - ID#237299)
Eldorado (abt price controls)
It's getting hard to control these threads, bu the time I answer one you have posted something else. sorry.

Any way... price! They don't give a crap what the price of widgets are as long as we use the paper that they print in the basement to buy them.

Mountain Goat
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:11 - ID#35087)
You make good points.
Clinton has never conceded ANYTHING easily.
Why would he start now?

This will be long and painful, I believe.
And it will keep the markets in turmoil.
But if today is any indication, I'm liking turmoil more & more!

MG ( Go Gold! )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:13 - ID#26793)
Nikkei down 425 points

Voyeur Professor
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:14 - ID#231112)
Bill Buckler and Nicodemus

Bill Buckler,
Sorry I overlooked your advice. Certainly I had not factored your counsel that interest rates rise when the risk premiums rise. It would help explain my thick inability to understand the virtue of rising rates. Thank you.


The simple fact that investors no longer want dollars does not necessarily mean they would choose gold. They have to be convinced it is a last resort, replacing equities, bonds, etc. I don't think we are at that point, though hedge funds may be convinced soon that shorting gold is bad business.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:15 - ID#286262)
Vodka, pickles and popcorn, huh. You've been peeking at the Starr report.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:16 - ID#316404)
@ PH in LA's wonderful construct to Jujube
@ Jujube...Since I know you're not wasting your breath casting "Pearls before swine" any longer these daysI wanted to comment point by point on everything in PH's extremely lengthy tome to you...which he THINKS makes all kinds of points and logical refutations.

Thus I'll take all the points in his last post that have ANY semblance of logic, deductive reasoning, or validity and respond....

OK, without further comment Ph's best points and my response......

Blah, blah, blah.... ( excrement deleted ) ...blah blah blah.... ( excrement deleted ) ...blah, blah, blah......

Come to think of it Jujube, this is INDEED an exercise in futility! Perhaps you're right after all. A lump of SH** should be rightly pointed out to people in advance as often as need they don't step in it...but the flies and maggots that attach themselves to the lump of SH**, don't even deserve comment beyond that.

I think I'll go along with you on this one and not bother pointing out the "flies" or "maggts".


(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:16 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Mike Sheller -- Triples are bad news most of the time, by far. Something that one can reasonably bet on, and most do! Probably why so many fail. Or in the 'fable' business, '3rd time's the charm'.

EZ Believer
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:17 - ID#173262)
jims.....One last SSRIF comment for now.

Sharing information on a forum such as this can be a good thing,
but we are beating this subject to death. No offense. After reviewing
all the facts possible one must just decide to buy, wait, or pass.
A company with a high level of proven reserves benefits from
future production in one of four ways.

1 ) Investor sentiment- When the crowds come stampeding in
proven reserves are a prime selling point.

2 ) Outright company takeover by a senior mining company- In this
case, depending on many factors it can result in substantial gains
just like the takeover of any other company. If there is substantial
competition the rewards can be significant.

3 ) The most likely way a non-producing junior gets into production is
in a joint venture with a major. In this case, the junior gets a free ride
on a negotiated portion of the production. This can be a bonanza for
shareholders if this occurs when the dumb crowd is standing in line to
buy PM shares after the runup.

4 ) A junior can sell proven concessions to senior miming companies.
I personally hate this course of action and usually will sell on the upward momentum of the news. Just like traditional diversified corporations, they
usually sell their prime divisions and end up keeping the dogs.

There it is. A person just has to make up their mind and move on. Keep in mind that all junior mining companies are speculations. If you "shoot
your wad" on one comany there is a good chance we will be hearing
your tales of woe on this forum. In the case of SSRIF it seems to be an
excellent value at $1 for all the reasons that have been covered. I am particularly happy because of my substantial position at 3/4. However,
it is just one company. Personally, I had no other silver positions and
felt it provided some diversification.

Lets hope our next discussion of SSRIF is whether to sell at $4 or let
the crowd keep running it up for us!!!!

Bully Beef
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:17 - ID#259282)
HI STRAT ! Small steps every day. And to brother WJC (A BEEJ aholic)...
You must first admit you are one before the healing can begin. HI BILL! GO GOLD. Goodnight.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:18 - ID#252286)
People may wonder

How RJ can post on K1 at the exact same minute that Jujube posts on K2? And Realistic can post on K2 at the exact same minute Jujube posts on K2? Yet they are the same. Truly an unholy trio if ever there was one to perform such feats. Some even think LGB is me, but LGB and me know better. This is a mysterious thing and wrinkles the brow with puzzlement. Maybe Im RJs smarter brother. Hmmmmm.. Naaaahh.. too good looking.

Hey there FarPHoungD
If you open your eyes youll see
All the PGMs
Are now up to your chin
And Im going hee hee hee

( I ought to be shot for that limerick )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:18 - ID#257312)

I just hope he doesn't bite his lower lip and shed a tear. Don't think I could handle it on a full stomach. Also, if Hildebeast does indeed speak, watch for that PHONY Arkansas twang. Take your dramamine prior to watching!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:20 - ID#228128)
Milk sucks, Got gold?
For all of you electronic traders out there, I suggest that you place your trades early tomorrow. I just heard on CNN that they are anticipating an internet brown out tomorrow with potentially millions searching the net to read the Starr report. I for one have already experienced slow responses on the net at times. It forced me to decide to sell some of my put contracts as they are getting so volatile that they can gain or lose 20% by the time you can call a broker to sell or buy when the net is jammed up. I wish like hell I hadn't now but it seemed the prudent thing to do. Oh well, I still got a bunch.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:21 - ID#252286)

A tip of the hat to a gentleman.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:22 - ID#26793)
Brazilian devaluation will bring automatic recession to Argentina

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:23 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Donald -- Now THAT makes for a 'growing' economy! Yep. 'Grow' it right into the weeds!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:23 - ID#259260)

Will be impeached

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:23 - ID#237299)
Tyoung (your 19:55)
Your confusing something, I think. I never said that the Euro, the dollar or the eventual one world currency would be backed by gold. Only that it would have a gold weight equivalence. Not that you could march up to some teller window and hand them your Euro and ask for gold. And that equivalency seem to be a fact. The IMF's SDR unit and the Euro are peggeg at approximately the same conversion, roughly .0040 to .0047. It's fluctuating because they havn't yet locked down the trading range of gold. and the dollar, for all practical purposes, is *already* tied to gold. As someone else pointed out today, if the dollar looses 16% against foreign currencies the price of gold rises 16%. So gold really does not currently change value, the dollar rises and falls against it.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:25 - ID#119358)
@ERLE.O y Spanky...............
ERLE.O......personally, I have come to the thinkin' that you can not claim to be a True Blue GOLDBUG unless you've gotcha' a little ( or a lotta! ) rangitO. nuff said. salud G&P to YA!!!

Spanky.....on second thought, I'm tossin' the pickles....reminds me of Billy too much! Billy the jerkin' gherkin boy.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:26 - ID#269128)
US banks exposure to S.America to 45 billion US dollars...
and rising in gold ounces : )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:27 - ID#237299)
Tyoung (ignore last post= should have been to Eldorado.)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:28 - ID#173274)
@the scene
obsidian -- 'Lock down' a pseudo rate? How about .000001 next year. How about .0000000001 the following year. As I said, There is NO way that funny money debt-based currency can EVER for long be 'locked' to ANYTHING tangible! If so, YOU tell me HOW!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:31 - ID#287279)
Todays collection"
David Kendall: Starr's report was ``simply a collection of their contentions, claims and allegations and we look forward to a chance to rebut them.''

Clinton has denied he committed perjury over his relationship with Lewinsky or asked her or others to do likewise.
And public opinion polls show that most Americans do not support the notion of impeachment over what they know now. A new Pew Research Center survey showed two-thirds polled did not like Clinton much as a person but three-quarters wanted him to stay in office.

Asked if he thought Clinton would survive the greatest threat to his presidency, Tom Daschle said, ``I believe he will.''

Gingrich opened Thursday's House session by reminding lawmakers House rules and precedents required civility and forbade personal attacks on the president.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:32 - ID#26793)
Fuji Bank has 2.4 trillion yen of loans where "creditworthiness of borrower is uncertain"

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:35 - ID#53235)
Earl, your extension
What is your extension on the trading floor?
Or if you want to be more private, could you please email
it to me at

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:35 - ID#253246)
Fleckenstein golden dog barks ****more on PAASF

Money spent on Russian property so far is protected by political risk

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:38 - ID#252286)

This is a nice night for a stroll.

Did you know that Vronsky has set up a discussion forum over at golden eagle? One could take a stroll and check out the local happenings, meet a few folks, perhaps even some gentle warnings about FarPHoungD so that the innocents don't get hoodwinked. Maybe add in an example or two of its more moderate boneheaded mistakes. I always like to hold back the good stuff as a kind of neutron bomb to sterilize the area after the corpse has been dragged away. FarPHoungD has given us much fissionable material to make up those bombs in the last 48 hours.

Played FarPHoungD like a harp.

It knew it too. It just couldnt help itself

I may take that stroll this fine summer evening

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:38 - ID#269128)
Loads of BAD news..
US stocks down up mentioned in 3rd paragraph.

Brazil stocks HALT trading

US trade gap RECORD blowout.

Japan still going down Sakibarabara

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:40 - ID#413307)
@ Eldorado: The last lease rate I have is for Sept 4. @ 0.41%
for one month gold. Kitco is not posting or updating its data and
the World Gold Council gives only weekly figures. These lease rates
do not indicate a gold bull.

I am in the middle of yanking my equity accounts out of the clutches
of an incompetant or dishonest finacial analyst. He has been selling
stock that I did not want sold and not selling stock that I did order
sold. So I am in limbo now, with my new account with another broker
being set up. Although it has been frustrating to sit on the sidelines
as all this excitement has occurred, on the other hand, it may not be
for the worst. I don't think it's too late to buy gold equities yet,
and it may very well be still too early. When the DOW crashes, it
will take the XAU with it. I will buy down when the crash occurs.

Lease rates are telling me there is no hurry here.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:42 - ID#26793)
More private lives of politicians become public.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:42 - ID#237299)
If the price of gold is forced into a narrower and narrower trading range-which we *have* been witnessing, and the Euro and the SDR are both fixed to be equivalent to x ounces of gold ( in this case it appears to be in that is approx .0045 or so ) Rather,, I should say, if they have a target equivalency in mind- then does it not follow that it is fixed?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:51 - ID#33180)
Cedd Moses likes HM, NEM, cash and a few shorts

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:53 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Rhody -- One of my more favored indicators of an imminent move is the previous days put and call volume on the option. So far, NOTHING indicative of a major move is to be seen. HOWEVER, any particular day could bring it and one will have no more than about a half hour after the market opens to climb aboard, judging from previous episodes. The day-to-day difference will be absolutely HUGE in the call volumes! I.E. SOMEBODY knows what the H__L is going on, and WHEN!

Tantalus Rex
(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:56 - ID#295111)
XAU Today
ABX-Barrick Gold---------CLOSED AT $18.0625 1.5625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 1.91
ASL-Ashanti Gold--------CLOSED AT $07.4375 1.3750 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.48
BMG-Battle Mountain---CLOSED AT $04.8750 1.0000 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.75
CDE-Coeur D'Alene------CLOSED AT $06.0625 0.3750 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.03
FCX-Freeport Mc----------CLOSED AT $13.5625 0.5625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.33
GGO-Getchell Gold------CLOSED AT $15.0000 3.0000 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.30
HL-Hecla Mining-----------CLOSED AT $04.5625 0.5625 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.10
HM-Homestake Gold----CLOSED AT $11.8750 0.8750 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.60
NEM-Newmont Mining--CLOSED AT $20.9375 2.9375 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 1.50
PDG-PlacerDome Gold-CLOSED AT $11.9375 1.1250 XAU CONTRIBUTION ( Est. ) 0.92

XAU CLOSED AT 67.9 7.06

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:58 - ID#348286)
@TORONTO GOLDS jumped 8.7 percent today !!!
TORONTO, Sept 10 ( Reuters ) - A large jump in the gold and precious metals index failed to pull the Toronto Stock Exchange out of a downward spiral on Thursday as the growing U.S. presidential scandal continued to plague the markets.

In Toronto, the key 300 composite index fell 75.64 points or 1.29 percent to 5796.14. Volume was 114.3 million shares worth C$2.05 billion. Decliners topped advancers 629 to 348 with another 269 issues unchanged.

Today's decline followed a drop of 105.27 points on Wednesday.

In New York, the Dow Jones Industrial Average slipped 249.48 points or 3.17 percent to 7615.54. On Wednesday the Dow fell 155.76 points.

Analysts said continued speculation the U.S. Congress could start impeachment proceedings against President Bill Clinton weighed heavily on world markets, which feared political instability in the United States.

``As far as today's market is concerned, I think two-thirds is attributed to Clinton and one third to ongoing global economic woes,'' Thomas Galvin, chief investment officer at Donaldson Lufkin & Jenrette told Reuters.

On Thursday, Germany's Dax index fell 293.54 points or 5.8 percent, Japan's Nikkei average dropped 89.51 points or 0.6 percent, and Hong Kong's Hang Seng index dropped 55.49 points or 0.7 percent. Brazil's Bovespa share index dropped almost 16 percent.

The drops came one day before a report about Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky is made public by Congress.

Overall in Toronto, 12 of the TSE 300's 14 subindexes fell on the day, led by a 3.8 percent fall in the industrial products group and a 3.6 percent decline in transportation shares.

In the industrial products group, Northern Telecom Ltd. ( Toronto:NTL.TO - news ) dropped C$4.95 to C$73.00 and Stelco Inc. ( Toronto:STEa.TO - news ) was down C$0.45 to C$7.30.

The overall drop came despite a surge in the TSE's gold and precious minerals group. The influential sector, which occupies about five percent of the TSE 300, jumped 8.7 percent. The price of gold jumped $6.40 to $293.80 an ounce.

In the group, Placer Dome Inc. ( Toronto:PDG.TO - news ) rose C$1.45 to C$18.10.

Priority Brokerage trader Todd Kapala said a strengthening Canadian dollar helped temper the market's losses.

The Canadian dollar closed firmer at C$1.5155 ( $0.6598 ) . Nervous investors sold the U.S. dollar, which fell to a 16-month low against the German mark, on fears of an interest rate cut by the U.S. Federal Reserve.

Kapala believes there could be a rally in the Canadian stock market if Canadian dollar remains positive.

``As long as the Canadian dollar remains stable, we might be close to a bottom here,'' he said. ``If the Canadian dollar stabilizes, we might see buying from foreign investors again. People are in a lot better mood.''

(Thu Sep 10 1998 20:58 - ID#288295)
The Clinton "Doomsday Scenario" scorched-earth defense

"Everyone will be punished"

"The embattled White House tries out a new strategy to fend off impeachment -- but if it doesn't work, stand by for total war."


"In the wake of Kenneth Starr's turning over his 500-page report on President Clinton's alleged offenses, White House aides, Democratic Party operatives and congressional sources say Clinton has embarked upon a new strategy designed to spare him from impeachment and his party from severe losses in the midterm elections now less than two months away. The strategy includes repeated public apologies to the nation for lying about his 18-month relationship with Monica Lewinsky; a signal from Clinton that he is willing to accept congressional censure for his behavior; and White House efforts to convince Democratic incumbents that despite the president's problems, internal polls show support for the party to be strong.
Another crucial component of any White House political strategy, aides say, is Clinton's dependence upon moderate Republicans' distaste for impeachment proceedings and the political damage it could cause to the GOP."

'But with more Democrats publicly venting their anger at Clinton over the Lewinsky affair, these sources admit the strategy is risky and could collapse under the impact of Starr's report. If that happens, one hard-core Clinton ally warned, Washington had better prepare for the so-called Doomsday scenario -- the dreaded sexual Armageddon in which the personal peccadilloes of everyone -- Republicans, Democrats, journalists -- are exposed if Clinton's infidelities are dragged into the open........."

"Until the details of the report become known, of course, it remains to be seen whether the new White House strategy of contrition and control will work, or if it will resonate like the captain of the Titanic saying, "There's no need for alarm, ladies and gentlemen. We're only stopping briefly to take on some ice." Democratic strategists admit that any new disclosures could be highly damaging, and Clinton's high approval ratings could plummet, emboldening Congress to move down the path toward impeachment. That, a Clinton ally warned, could trigger the "Doomsday scenario."........"

"I think there is a possibility that everything slides and all bets are off," this ally threatened. "And if everything slides, everyone will be punished -- everyone, including the press. It will be a total meltdown."

FROM: SALON | Sept. 10, 1998


(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:00 - ID#410194)
Don't forget to tell us what is your opinion today of charting and technical analysis.

Has it changed?


Date: Wed Mar 04 1998 20:35
farfel ( @OLDMAN...IN AN EXISTENTIAL WORLD... ) ID#339265: the one we live in, there need not be any rules or scientific formulae in which things begin or end. Charts are meaningless when random chaos appears.

So load up on your Metamucil.

It's here.

F*, the Unpronounceable.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:00 - ID#252286)

Perhaps a similar thread on SI?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:00 - ID#411259)

Auric -

Your 18:56 should be required reading by all. No newsletter, no course, no guru, could ever match but a fraction of what may be found here at Kitco. I have learned more of Y2K from this site than all other sources combined. Nary a day passes by when some gem does not appear in these pages, and we are all the better for it.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:01 - ID#173274)
@the scene
obsidian -- It means that it is fixed for the 'moment'. The 'true' market tells you what it is really worth. How many times have we seen that already in other currencies. Paper IS as paper DOES! It burns very nicely! The gold part of the reserve is STILL only 'reserve'; There for selling on the open market to support their whims and fancies of their precious paper. HAR! Confidence in an ever increasing debt repayment, forEVER. What a concept!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:01 - ID#373403)
Now I am a maven!
Date: Thu Sep 10 1998 00:16
TheMissingLink ( FIRE ALL DRY POWDER!!!!!!!!! ) ID#373403:
It's all coming down this week! Or going up if you a a gold/bear investor.

Alright, so it was only last night that I had the premonition that everything would go to h*ll today and tomorrow. Not much advance warning.

I see tomorrow as a medium down day for the Dow followed by a strong rally Monday. Markets will fear the Starr report which will not come out in time to help the market with direction. Over the weekend of punditry and reading, the country will know what is to be. I believe the stock market will rally hard Monday after discounting the worst this week.

Please don't sue me if I am wrong since you paid nothing for this forecast anyways.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:01 - ID#280214)
All - failing Gore and post Clinton - we need another
Are ANY governors or senators combat vets - besides Bob Kerry of Nebraska? Are there any OTHER likely Presidential candidates who are combat vets - such as Powell. They need to be over age 50 and under 70. If Clinton is impeached - then Gore steps up and a VP is appointed. If Gore is impeached first - then a VP is appointed. We need that VP to be a respected combat vet who can step into the Presidency. There is a trap here though - if that person becomes Gore's VP and Gore is re-elected, then that strands that combat vet in a dead end for 6 years {10 years if Clinton leaves office after January 20th thus making the remainder of this term less than one-half and permitting Gore to run for 2 full terms in addition to almost 2 years}

I'm going to prowl the net and e-mail Kerry. Does anyone know of good places to look - or even semi-likely places to look?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:05 - ID#30126)
@vindications a coming...
When Starr's report is made public, it will either put the final nails in Clinton's pine box or be a joke of a report. Bye, bye WJC. As to those damn lefties who continue to bleet that this is about sex.... It isn't.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:05 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Squirrel -- Powel is just another NWO puke!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:06 - ID#335379)
Hello and thaks to all, Auric, FoxMan, Arby, Cooljing et.all. NightWriter
Thank you for settling my emotions on this issue. I have thrown 3 faxes, and an overnight package in the circular file. I just wanted some assurance that I did the right thing.
Tis true I believe I am getting a purty good dose of info here at the the Kitco history and polatics lesson 101.
I have no intention of playing futures. Got phys. and a ton of gold stox.
I hope they pan out I can afford to wait. I think.......
Thank you for the encouragement and hope it pans out for us all.

Hello NightWriter: Hypocrosy at higher levels is often suspected, unfortunately mostly true, and not very novel. Klinton is only another one in a long line of hypocrite. To bad, he thinks he's something special, guys like him are a dime a dozen. The road to hell is broad........ ( ; )

Tantalus Rex
(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:07 - ID#295111)
Spin Doctors
Many of the more popular news channels like CNBC have not talked much about gold even today with gold stocks soaring.


baby boomer aren't that stupid. All we need are a few boomers to realize they're getting shafted with there DOW large caps. They will notice the POG going up and realize they're not being told about it.


I'm predicting that October/November will see a great turnaround for gold. Be patien..PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:08 - ID#257312)
You Gotta See This!

Bear with me here, I may not have all the
finer details down, but here's the gist.
Hillary Clinton, after delivering a speech at the White house tonight on colon cancer
screening, was asked by a reporter if she was
still going to defend her husband. Ms.
Clinton responded by saying that the
reporters should go into the Green Room and
get their rectums and colons checked! The
reporter was Andrea Mitchell, who is also
Mrs. Alan Greenspan. Even the Bard himself
couldn't surpass this.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:10 - ID#411112)
LINKS TO STARR REPORT......within a few hours the Starr report will be on the net this is a PSA

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:16 - ID#237299)
I hope you're right. I really do. I've got a lot of gold bullion and I would LOVE to see it break out. Almost more to see a fly in the ointment of the big guys, than for personal gain. However, I know I'm not the only one here who is suspicious of the *curiously timed* central bank sale announcements everytime it seems to be doing so.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:16 - ID#237299)
I hope you're right. I really do. I've got a lot of gold bullion and I would LOVE to see it break out. Almost more to see a fly in the ointment of the big guys, than for personal gain. I know I'm not the only one here who is suspicious of the *curiously timed* central bank sale announcements everytime it seems to be doing so, however.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:16 - ID#224363)
@RJ (Yes) and Auric
Absolutely correct...Kitco is easily one of the most interesting sites I have ever visited.

The quality and nature of commentary here is sporadic but when considered as a whole, it is invaluable and I have learned a great deal from all of you.

Thanks folks and good luck over the next few weeks and months.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:20 - ID#43349)
Greenspan never said he was going to lower rates. Everybody who wants to has read that into his words though.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:22 - ID#43349)
Greenspan never said he was going to lower rates. Everybody who wants to has read that into his words though.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:23 - ID#202123)
To all: I love a day like today, with lady Gold showing her feathered tail

and winking at us. But to me, she is still a whore and will do what ever her pimp of the moment tells her to do--- in this case as in every other moment, she will leave with the money and give no satisfaction.

Years ago, I should have done what the smart people on this site do,--- short the f**k out her. Use her, play with her--- take profits and laugh in her face. But---I didn't. Instead, I sought her physical beauty and loved her, even when she spit in my face.

Do I get excited when she glows? Would a $10 or a $30 pop excite me? No. Because I know she is a whore and has to many pimps fighting for her, who are themselves afraid of her power and charm

There are alot of smart people here--- I should pay attention to what I have read in the last 9 months and treat her as she has treated me.

Unfortunately, I am in love with the tramp.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:24 - ID#240241)
overseas gold up $.80. Japan worsening

Tantalus Rex
(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:31 - ID#295111)
Credit Crunch is on they way. GO GOLD!

By Alden Bentley

NEW YORK, Sept 9 ( Reuters ) - A credit crunch is brewing in

the volatile currency markets as U.S. banks cut trading lines to

fund managers, forcing them out of leveraged investments and sapping more liquidity from


market, market experts said.

This could lead to unusually thin and unpredictable foreign exchange trade -- as many of

these big hitters are reined in or banished from the market entirely -- just when conditions

typically return to normal as summer vacations come to an end.

Growing ever more conservative as some of the savviest U.S. hedge funds post giant

losses in turbulent world markets, U.S. commercial and investment banks are seen paring

collateralized credit limits to speculators and even healthy financial firms.

``This could snowball into a bigger credit crunch problem,'' said David Gilmore, a partner

at Foreign Exchange Analytics, a Connecticut consulting firm.

``I suspect some of the big asset managers are in trouble as well. I see credit being

reduced to asset

managers, hedge funds and probably mutual funds,'' he said, adding that the squeeze

could extend to

some interbank trading lines.

Some money managers have withstood and even profited from the violent debt and equity


in emerging economies in Asia, Russia and Latin America, and the subsequent fallout in

Europe and

on Wall Street. But many were far less lucky.

Banks are closely examining the credit leeway they grant risk-hungry speculators,

especially after

high-profile and well-respected funds like George Soros's Quantum Fund and


Long-Term Capital disclosed billions of dollars in losses this year.

``They're obviously paying a lot of attention to the losses that some of these major hedge

funds have

been taking,'' said Virginia Parker, president of Parker Global Strategies LLC, a trading


and investment consultant.

``Many of the larger banks have been taking fairly significant losses in their own

proprietary trading

operations,'' she said. ``Consequently we have heard rumblings ... that there will be a

retrenchment across the board which will further hurt liquidity.''

Long-Term Capital last week announced that almost half its net asset value had vaporized

so far this year. The fund attributed losses to a variety of strategies involving bonds,

stocks and derivatives in markets of industrial and developing economies, including


(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:31 - ID#280214)
El Dorado - I'd heard and read that about Powell
I was reluctant to post his name but since his name will come up anyway I figured I'd toss it into the Kitco ring and see how many shots are fired.
I know we can't trust any politicians,
But we will get some anyway.

I've e-mailed Senator Bob Kerry ( not John of Massachusetts )
and the VFW and the American Legion.
( Note: the Legion's website takes a ghastly time to load! )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:34 - ID#433422)
Look at Yahoo Intl Mkts, I've never seen anything like it

this is arterial

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:34 - ID#424424)
I have a copy of the Bible Codes software
and when I enter:


and search Webster's Pentateuch ( 1st 5 books of Bible ) , I get many
hits. Over 6,000 years ago, the Lord God Almighty knew that William
Jefferson Clinton would be removed from office.

Furthermore, I entered:


and I received many more hits. Guess what? God says fire caused the

The odds of the hits that I received are many billions to one. Kinda
proves who reigns on high, huh?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:35 - ID#373403)
Independent Council Report
I find it odd that there have been so many fights brought all the way to the Supreme Court over all manner of privelege yet this report can be posted to the internet within two days of receipt without much opposition.

I guess for $40 million it should be mandatory reading for the taxpayer. Probably could have gotten the same story straight from Monica for $6 million.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:39 - ID#342376)
This was posted by Ole 49'r over on Silicon Investor. It's just a tidbit of the post, but it got me thinking.

"...BTW, you don't suppose ANOTHER=Saudi Prince Bandar that was killed on Swiss Air 111 last week do you?"

Wasn't there talk on Kitco of Gold being on board that plane? I'm sure the chance are one in a million it was him but the mind wanders just the same. Any new posts from ANOTHER recently?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:40 - ID#275194)
The corrective waves, a-b-c have formed what looks like an ominus bear
flag! This is a continuation pattern. Check out this link.

If you look at this 30 minute Dow chart and connect the lows of the bottom and the 4th, then the tops of the 2nd and the 8th, you have a parallel flag.

The 3rd wave may have begun. Notice the gap down on the oppening, classic 3rd wave action. Gold very well may leap upward by double digits over the near term.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:41 - ID#348286)
@Comex Dec 300. by Sunup?
Gold UP 1.50 Silver up .04 Oil up .08

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:42 - ID#269128)
IMF bleats anybody listening anymore?
IMF drivel

World Markets out of control....derivatives anybody?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:43 - ID#173274)
@the scene
obsidian -- Right about what? I don't claim a damn thing except that usury-based paper HAS TO burn! There is ultimately no way around it. And when that happens, 'reality' has to set in, generally in the form of universal 'value', such as is found in the metals, and more generally gold and silver. That is ALL I claim. Whether or not this market climate is THE turning point in THIS fundamental, I do not know, but I do think that things are in the works that DO mean a fundamental shift. How that works out tomorrow, next week, next month, etc., is not important. What IS important is that it IS working itself out and it does not behoove anyone to be in burning paper. Thus, find something 'solid'; valuable; and tradable.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:43 - ID#317193)
Eldorado and Obsidian...
Gold is a currency to the world CB"s. Do not misunderstand me. Paper controls gold until debt default and derivative defaults by counterparties.

When paper currencies fail gold backed or tied or based...whatever word you wish to use, currencies will come to the fore and all others must comply. Will this happen in my lifetime...I know not. What I do know is that debt based currencies will fail when defaults occur to the point of currency destruction.......DEFLATION!!! Push on a does not cause an effect.

The powers that be are in contol? Not when money is destroyed by default...Gold will be no investment, since it is purely a currency, until the final fiat currency crisis. We watch and wait.

Who knows. Until such times gold is no investment to compete with paper. Paper when it will be to swift to save. Hedge your bets and those of your children and their children.

The games today have a high risk...


Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:43 - ID#320226)
Dec Gold just broke $295 UP $1.50 @ $295.30
Japan Nikkei 14216.78 -449.25 -3.06%
South Korea 326.12 -12.83 -3.79%

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:45 - ID#173274)
@the scene
TYoung -- Their paper WILL burn too. Watch what happens when THOSE have to be 'unwound' also. HAR!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:46 - ID#280214)
Starr's Report - when posted by Congress
will be found at

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:48 - ID#288399)
Squirrel/Combat Vet
How about John McCain ( sp.? ) ; he was a POW and I think he's between 50 and 70.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:51 - ID#231337)
Gold: It's true value will soon be evident....
Further to my previous post, which I have attached.

IMHO, the US price of Gold was of no concern to Greenspan and the US Govt, as they were pursuing a very selfish monetary policy without Gold in mind. This policy was meant to attract foreign currency into the US sphere of influence. Better than a hot war, the currency war worked just fine for a time. Unfortunately, the 'BLACK HOLE' affect of the ever-increasing value of the US currency, and an increasing number of dependent people on that currency, got very badly out of control.

Severe consequences indeed as a result of a misguided and greedy policy; and Greenspan's legacy is increasingly tied to this debacle. Many economies are now in great trouble, ( all be it with much help from themselves ) ; and the average US investor is about to go through their own hell as $$ are slowly extracted from the black hole ( and its equity partner ) ; and the great US $$ course correction, or over correction to perhaps 60 or 70 points, takes place.

But as we are starting to see, and Greenspan will learn one more time, Gold is not a commodity, it is a monetary reality. He knows it, he believes ( or at least did ) in it, and in fact as demonstrated as per my previous attached post, that he watched that relationship very closely.

When the US $$ is back at 70 points ( 1995 levels ) , Gold will correct to about $375, except that all of the other factors now come into play:, increased demand, but less supply, and the short covering that has to be dealt with. So think of it. If that over correction forces Gold to $500 or $600, the point correction of the US $$ will be forced to about 50 to 60 points. GOLD becomes the standard, at last in US terms.

The worm is starting to turn. The Euro will add to the velocity of that turn.

Date: Thu Sep 10 1998 16:52

ORCA ( Gold Price has not changed! ) ID#231337:

Copyright  1998 ORCA/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

It's the US $$ that has determined the price! Not new news! Here are some rough calcs that make the point.

Oct - Dec '96: US $$ index at +- 88 points, Gold +-$330

Aug '98: US $$ index at +- 102 points ( an INCREASE of 16% ) , Gold at $277, ( a DECREASE of 16% ) .

Sept 10, '98: US $$ Index at +- 97 Points ( decrease of 5% from its high ) . Gold at $292, ( an INCREASE of 5% from its low ) .

The US $$ can potentially go as low as 82 points in the next 6 Mos. ( a 20% DECREASE ) , so potentially Gold will go to +- $340 over the same time.

Now factor into the Gold price the following:

Demand higher than in 1996

Production down by 20%

SHORTS must cover.

Gold price in 6 Mos? $375, $390, $425.....

The Canadian Dollar dropped 16% over the same time frame ( .75 down to .63 ) and has now corrected by 5% to .66.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:53 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Tantalus -- I 'love this; 'savviest U.S. hedge funds post giant losses in turbulent world markets', paraphrase. Savvy, yea, RIGHT!!! Hell, you'd find a hell of a lot more savvy right here at THE SCENE than you will on all their BS!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:53 - ID#275194)
At Kitco; Watching all this unfold here at Kitco reminds me of Desert Storm
and watching the war,live as it happened! Weird feeling!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:53 - ID#304282)
Is the Hang Seng going to open tonight or is the Nikkei
going to collapse by itself? Now down 563.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:53 - ID#45173)
In English dogs go "woof woof" and sheep go "baaaah" but
in Japanese dogs go "wong wong" and the sheep go...

"Meeeeeeh meeeeeeeh!"

Japan Nikkei 225 ^N225 9:56PM 14077.62 -588.41 -4.01%

And you thought animal sounds were universal. Only one I know of that's common to Japanese and English and Chinese: meeeeeeew!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:56 - ID#304282)
Globex is retreating fast.
Strongly Negative by morning. Setting up possible crash on Mon.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:57 - ID#288295)
Here are the current updates of Jeil's charts
Hmmmmmm....his projections look the same to me - surprising after today's divergence....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:58 - ID#304282)
Hong Kong down 3% in 3 minutes.
S&P's +3.30

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:59 - ID#240241)
Seems some are starting to mention the G"old" word .

World marts gyrate wildly as investors seek safety

But the drop in Wall Street stocks was overshadowed by a 15 percent drop in the Brazilian stock market, a drop of nearly 10
percent in Mexico City and a 13 percent decline in Argentina.

Gold prices soared on Thursday as investors turned to a long overlooked haven. The COMEX December gold contract
settled at $293.80 an ounce, up $6.40 from the prior close. One trader said the rise in gold was a sign that foreign investors
were leery of the U.S. markets as the Clinton woes piled up.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:59 - ID#72316)
What the hell makes a vet so special?

How bout someone with brains. Don't matter a lot anyway,, they're only figurehads and salesmen.
As A canadian, I don't have any more or less respect for the US, no matter what happens to Slick. The only part of concern is what they will get the next guy to pitch and do.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:59 - ID#254321)
Another reason for Gold and Oil to rally -- soon
All: The Intel and Microsoft earnings news may cause the US markets to rally tomorrow, but the Iran-Taliban situation looks dicy. Something like 7 Irani diplomats killed by Taliban troops. Kosovo is heating up, too. Kenneth Starr's report on WJC will be on the net tomorrow.

And -- Brazil went down 15% in one day today -- this is likely to have a bearish effect on the US markets -- if not tomorrow -- very soon. Given all the US investment in Brazil, this will eventually override the Intel and Microsoft news. Think of all those derivatives trades that went sour. And -- just how long will it be before the derivatives markets in Brazil melt down altogether, catching both winner and loser together in the liquidity collapse. Happened in South Korea.



(Thu Sep 10 1998 21:59 - ID#173274)
@the scene
ANYBODY know what the debt 'retirement' likelihood is of a country that has exported much of its manufacturing capability; become a service economy; and continually expands its regulatory powers over the people and economy ( AT COST, of course ) , is? Go ahead. Just TELL me how good our debt is!!! Just TELL me how much anyone will believe the sweetheart scenarios! HAR!!!

Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:00 - ID#320226)
Japan Nikkei 14103.75 -562.28 -3.83%
This is starting to get serious. 14,000 tonight!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:01 - ID#304282)
I am going to a gun show tommorrow. What is a good gun to
buy now before the new restrictions take affect?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:03 - ID#317211)
rhody - thanks again for the lease rate update, giving us all perspective
ALL: Saw WJC on tele just now. White House diet is controlling his weight to the point of slender. Nicely done.
Now if we can just control those huge, growing bags under his eyes.
Too many tears recently, yes? Uh,GO Gold!

Franco-Nevada up 8% today. Glad I've waited

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:05 - ID#45173)
Lurker 777
Nikkie was down to 14077 earlier and has recovered slightly. Now we sit out the 2hr nightly blackout. Even money it closes under 14k tonight.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:06 - ID#173274)
@the scene
tricky -- Any and all. Actually, a 12 gauge shotgun ( 20 gauge not too shabby neither! ) would be first on my list. Then a rifle of a caliber you might feel comfortable with ( kick, ETC. ) . THEN perhaps a pistol that you could feel comfortable with.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:09 - ID#275194)
Hey Silverbaron! It don't look too good for Friday and Monday huh!
I thunk the turd wave has begun. What say you?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:10 - ID#200235)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:11 - ID#173274)
@the scene
tricky -- But to be more precise, perhaps you'll post what exactly these 'restrictions' are that are going into effect, and why you feel you'll be left out.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:11 - ID#433422)

Without a doubt, Springfield armory M1A, Baretta 92FS, and Remington 870. Throw a Ruger 10-22 in for good measure.
Get ammo. Get physical.
ARE WE HAVIN" FUN YET?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:12 - ID#333126)
HK looks sick too
now down 264 ( 3.4% )


(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:12 - ID#286206)

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:13 - ID#269128)
Burn paper burn..... thursday is the BIG one!

Later all, keep the faith.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:14 - ID#317211)
By the gods , I've finally figured it out.
"I did not have sex with that woman,"

She had sex with me.

If I told that to my wife she would Bobbit me tonite and serve it up
for my breakfast tomoro.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:14 - ID#72316)
If you are burning to spend some dough,, this is much more economical and although I HAVE'NT ( CAPS LOCK ) tried it yet , is probably going to be well worth it.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:16 - ID#341234)
Has anyone seen Peter Lynch on the Fidelity Investments advertisements telling investors to "stay in for the long term"? There are a lot of "investors" who are going to just watch their savings go down the drain. The principal of selling does not register in their brains.

Did anyone see the interview on Nightly Business Report last night about floundering corporate earnings?>

If that does not work, try splicing:

"...analysts are dropping their estimates more dramatically now than in the first or second quarters of this year."
"First Call is predicting that earnings will actually come in flat, or maybe even negative, for the first time since 1991."
"...a market that's been at record valuations...allows no room for error."
"At 11.8 percent for the fourth quarter. 15.4 for the first quarter. And 20.1 percent growth expected for S&P earnings for the second quarter. Those are clearly too high!"
"Pie in the sky."

As for gold, I still do not understand who is going to buy up the physical supply in a recession. Investors buy paper gold. The physical mostly goes to jewelry. Maybe some people ( or governments ) will get scared enough to buy large quantities of physical, or maybe the 8000 leased tonnes will have to be covered. Betting on one of these to happen seems like a gamble. I still think the big gold rally will come in 1-3 years when the Government is trying desperately to re-inflate in order to "prime the pump" to end the recession. I will hold my physical for a few years, but gold stocks are still risky.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:22 - ID#317211)
Just had a horrid thought. Did he then smoke the cigar, or give it to Vernon Jordan?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:24 - ID#280214)
tricky - here we go again!
In order of likelihood of restriction/banning...
1 ) Handguns - esp. high capacity semi-auto {over 10 rounds}
2 ) Machine pistols - semi-auto "handguns" like the Tec9
3 ) Assault Rifles - AK47, AR15, SKS, etc.{esp. pre-ban}
4 ) Riot guns - shotguns with 7 or more rounds & shorter barrels.
5 ) High powered rifles - esp. semi-auto and anything more than a 22
6 ) Shotguns - esp. semi-auto
before the last two categories are banned I hope have a new government.
Category 1 may survive longer than 2 or 3 -
it depends on Charlton Heston and true Americans vs. the US Government.
If you want something from category 1, 2, or 3
you best get it now.
And you best get a LOT of ammo for anything in category 1, 2 or 3
Purchases of large quantities could become reportable and traceable.
Large quantity or a "Lot" translates into a "few thousand rounds".
Get lots of hollow point, hydrashock, etc. for the real thing.
Get ball ( FMJ ) wadcutter, etc. for practice - lots of practice.
First priority in ammo -
hollowpoint, etc. because it will be banned first - before FMJ

lefty kiwi
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:24 - ID#32176)
vhale re Bible codes
I have downloaded freeware Torah4u but cannot fathom out how to get results , if you can or are prepared to help me I will post my Email .

To other gold bugs patient now ... it is probably at or about the end of the Bear for gold ...... to the words of Winston Churchill ..."this is not the Beginning of the end , but it is the end of the beginning ".
Not quite true for the Dow though
ps Vhale if you cant help me get operational , I have a name I would like you to check out ....Thanks

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:26 - ID#202123)
at kitco
I use a Winchester Defender for my needs, but read an article of a person who used a 10ga. to hunt. I was wondering , is there an 8ga that an individual could use for whatever need might present itself. I know it would have to be pretty mean. The guy that used the 10 ga was transported out of the bush in two cots. One for him and one for his arm.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:26 - ID#45173)
Paradox: 30 years ago the West feared a Red World
30 years of global capitalism brings us a world in the red.


(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:30 - ID#173274)
@the scene
YOUforia. MAN, it does make itself known here! LET NO ONE know ANYTHING ELSE but that serious corrections DO happen, in ALL markets, and that what you were woofin' about one day is truly the dog that it was the day before yesterday. There is nothing out here that can't and doesn't turn on a friggin' dime, 'fundamentals' be damned ( as WE understand them ) ! Now, as a pseudo disclaimer, I will say that s__t is S__T, and that IS the way a whole lot of paper looks at this time. Never forget the almighty PPT though, not that they can pull things out of the extreme.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:33 - ID#25257)
Can anyone tell me what has happened to "Good Ol' Rangy"? Out of all the many stocks I follow, RANGY--which was heavily touted by many here at Kitco--is the only issue still down on the day. Fortunately I sold half my RANGY stock many weeks ago.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:36 - ID#227238)
Actually, Hillary picked it up and enjoyed it at one of the NOW functions. Along with her post prandial brandy. ..... She's been "spittin'" mad ever since.

Chicken man
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:41 - ID#341297)
Flipping Options
Anybody got any ideas on covering on the YAHOO 90 puts and taking the

Monaply Money and buy calls for the biggest rally in "HISTORY" ( less
than 400 pts? )

Lurker 777
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:49 - ID#320226)
Puetz I hope you shorted this market and are making a killing!
kapex: I agree something is in the air and a lot of people are going to lose BIG..

tricky: Go here:

EJ: When 14,000 goes down watch S & P Globex tank.

Charles Keeling
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:49 - ID#344225)
I think that when we read the details, that will soon
be posted to the internet, we will find that the CIGAR
was encased in a strong plastic or glass container
that was strong enough to withstand a good deal
of extreme abuse and still be smoked at a later date.

Since Yasar Arafat was waiting in the rose garden to meet
with our "boy" President, it would indeed be ironic if he
had the opportunity to smoke this very same CIGAR.

Just think about that for awhile. How would that sit
with the the Isreali/Arab SITUATION.

Steve in TO
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:52 - ID#287337)
weiser - where do you get ammo for . . .
a 10-ga. shotgun, let alone an 8-ga.? I've never seen it in any stores here. Do they sell it in your neck of the woods?

Around here even the old 16 ga. standard is dead. The only shotguns & ammo available are 12 ga. & 410. Many stores only have 12 ga. supplies.

- Steve

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:54 - ID#280214)
arby - you ask "What the hell makes a vet so special"
1 ) Because our President is the Commander in Chief of our military.
Numerous times in the last decade he has committed troops and sent military force into regions where they must kill or be killed and where they entangle the US in even more decisions regarding military force.
2 ) Because National Defense is the First and most important and,
in my opinion, darn near the ONLY appropriate responsibility of the Federal Government. All the other stuff can be handled at other levels.

Not just a "vet" but someone who can responsibly and knowledgeably make decisions regarding military force. Experience is the best ( though not only criteria to measure this capability ) . Since we can not easily measure the the necessary knowledge, emotional maturity, etc., then previous COMBAT EXPERIENCE is the easiest criteria which is available to us as a matter of public record.

I used to believe we needed a domestic affairs president and an international affairs president. I have now come to the conclusion that the President and the Federal Government has no business in domestic affairs. Period!

I am sure that our Soldiers here will clue you into more reasons.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:54 - ID#173274)
@the scene
Fred -- Oh yah. Took SO long to get into 'add a comment' that I almost forgot. Who's gonna buy the gold? Well , let us otherwise ask who is gonna buy the paper. See mch of that 'CONfidence going on right now? And this is just the beginning. Now, just WHAT are they otherwise going to buy. Sampans?

Weiser -- 10 GAUGE; 8 GAUGE?: jEESH! WHY leave an arm behind? I'd rather have something I can fire multiple times as necessary.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:55 - ID#424424)
lefty kiwi
I don't know anything about Torah4U. I tried and didn't understand
it. I paid $50 and bought something else.

Chicken man
(Thu Sep 10 1998 22:55 - ID#341297)
Clinton seems to think it works so I thought it might work for me!

Regarding last post:

It would make more "cents" if I would have spelled "Monoply" correct

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:09 - ID#173274)
@the slow scene
Can't take the access problems here anymore tonight. Later all.....

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:17 - ID#206298)
@ Zeke
Now that you tol us that you sold 1/2 of your Rangy, we will push its price up tomorrow. OK? Just teasing Zeke. I have Rangy to and wounder why its going backwards. It will turn someday.

Mtn Bear (SE)
(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:18 - ID#347267)
@ AragornIII Your 12:24
Namaste' "---very complicated financial instruments----" related to banks ANYWHERE = "derivatives", and will be the reported cause of the crash of 1998 in analyses later ( Klinton and other factors just "trigger events" IMHO ) . ; Mtn Bear Still holding CEF,KGC and GOLDX!!!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:18 - ID#420116)
Squirrel tricky
7 ) Consider a nice stainless S&W .357 revolver. Ahhhhh

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:19 - ID#288231)

technically speaking............ALLABOARD.

deliverable comex stocks vs. outstanding contracts....ALLABOARD.

source of stability in un-certain times......ALLABOARD.

ONLY TRUE LONG TERM device to store value.....regardless of
the manipulation by man........ALLABOARD...

at historical lows....ALLABOARD.

is fun to force into paper lovers hands....ALLABOARD.

will not rot....ALLABOARD.

does not kill trees......ALLABOARD.

is the thing to do NOW, for you and yours.....

cherokee!; )

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:21 - ID#430221)
Lurker777 Many thanks for your posts re the POG
and other prices etc - Much appreciated.

lefty kiwi
(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:25 - ID#32176)
thanks for responding . i for one will be interested in any other interesting things you discover in your searches . $us50 is $nz100 so i will pass on buying a code at present , when gold reaches $US2000 plus I will not be such a miser . Have you tried " gold shortage " etc in the Bible Code ..... or " Dow Crash " ?? Again thanks .

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:28 - ID#280214)
Would my S&W Stainless 44mag revolver do? ;- )
since I have no semi-auto hi-cap 45.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:31 - ID#373403)
Guns and Dogs
Here we sit, 500 days from the year 2000, on the eve of a presidential impeachment report, with our armed forces on Alert Status Alpha, discussing guns as protection from chaos. This in a setting whereby 2/3 of the global community are gripped in a deflationary recession.

Like nuclear weapons, you cannot whip out your gun until after circumstances escalate there. Often it is too late at that point to effectively defend yourself and the best you can hope for is to wound your enemy as he runs over you.

Get a dog or two for the everyday circumstances which may escalate before you become aware.

I have a four month old Airedale Terrier ( Herbert Hoover had one ) and he is wonderful with the children. They are reportedly protective of the family. They are 50 pound dogs.

I wonder how long it will take to download this report. Will anyone reproduce hard copies for sale?

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:31 - ID#25257)
BCIWN...Go ahead, make my day!
If Rangy goes up, maybe I can break even on the second 1/2 of my stock as well. It just seems very odd that a stock s-o-o-o highly thought of by Brother Goldbugs would sink in such a surging gold bull. Good ol' DROOY seems to being OK.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:31 - ID#202123)
Steve in TO- You can buy 10ga. if you look hard enough.

The 8ga I was kinda of joking about ( although I have heard about it--- but not on a serious note ) . I don't believe there is a commerical 8ga, but can you imagine the devastation an 8ga would do--- providing it didn't rip off your arm.

I am a 12ga believer and live by that gage. I like O buck and 1 buck. Both really nice when you need to stop someone.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:32 - ID#386245)
on the cherokee breakout chart.

Lay your ruler across the top of the downtrend and see the nice breakout to the upside at the end. Don't be surprised if gold comes back down to visit the line again--this is normal. If would be nice if we just took off from here as the shorts are squeezed. Let's be realistic, though. It's gonna be a long hard road. We are now in the position of being 'dipsters'. Enjoy!!

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:35 - ID#420116)
To: Squirrel - Yes, Good as. .
. . Gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:36 - ID#411163)
Squirrel and Tricky
The best guns to buy are military cal. as there is will always be ammo around. The most important thing is the practice. I learned last Sunday night about the need for shooting in the dark with a flashlight.
I got off two rounds and the skunk got a bunch more than that. He got the dog and I got off my 2 rounds. I winged him I think but not sure.
The range was only 50 feet. Hate to think of a skunk with a gun!!
Have to agree about stocking ammo-Remember in Cal. they close gas stations and gun and ammo sales right at the start. I would trust a 12 ga. pump with 00buck-the Ruger 10/22 ( I have two ) and a pair of .45 auto's. A 30-06 in a bigger rifle/with a scope is nice too

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:38 - ID#304282)
Thanks for the recomendations. I'll keep them in mind.
BTW S&P now below cash and Nikkei -4.69% HK -3.96%.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:39 - ID#431200)
Nightly Business Report
Among the winners, demand for gold producers a shining example of some perhaps old fashioned panic buying when there's instability in the world. New York Gold closing up over $6 today.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:41 - ID#202123)
The Missing Link: Didn't anyone ever tell you not to take a knife to a gun fight

On a more serious note, a firearm doesn't have to be fed or taken out to crap. Just be sure you know how to use it ( the firearm ) .

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:45 - ID#335379)
Hello moa: I liked your comment on IMF bleating on.... Ive read some of there
nonsense..... Lots'o noise, no wisdom......

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:45 - ID#284255)
Adrenalin running high on Kitco
You know the difference between the Nixon and Clinton administrations?
In the Nixon Administration, Dick gave everybody the Willies.

Apparently, there is a new bond issue coming to market in the US. The
are to be called
CLINTON BONDS. They have no maturity and no principal.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:51 - ID#335379)
Hello Squirrel: Gimmie a simple ,effective handgun to buy, which amo, etc. I
Think I could handle a semi automatic. A;lso could you recomend appropriate blank rounds.Thanks

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:51 - ID#153120)
POG and the yield on the US Long Bond
Since 1974, that is all the data I have for gold, POG and the yield on the US long bond go hand in hand, as gold went so did the bond. With damn few exceptions gold has called every major move up and down for the long bond and GOLD HAS LEAD THE LONG BOND BY AS LITTLE AS 4 WEEKS TO AS MUCH AS 9 MONTHS. It is amazing how closly these two series track each other. If gold keeps it uptrend and history is any guide, and I think it is, the flight to quality into bonds will turn in to a flight for life out of bonds and into gold.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:52 - ID#342376)
Now down 5.29%

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:53 - ID#284255)
Why it is so real??? got gold?
Email chatter:
I have been lurking for a long time and Tom Benjamin has inspired me to add
something that has finally sunk into this thick skull of mine. Gary North
keeps saying, in effect, "It's the division of labor, Stupid!" And you are
right... but most people don't understand the division of labor on a
meaningful level.

Here is how I would explain the division of labor problem. As Gary describes,
the tremendous advancement in the West's standard of living over the last
couple of centuries has been possible because of the sophisticated use we
have made of the division of labor in society. I would like to stress the
phrase "in society". If the power grid goes down as a result of the
uncounted and countless points of simultaneous failures cascading across the
electrical grid then civilization will have just had it's Reset button hit.
This doesn't mean that our economy's division of labor takes a big hit.
This means that our economy's division of labor ceases to exist at all.

What does that mean personally to any of us? Just this, and I'll use an
example. Many of us who are concerned are doing what we can on an
individual or family level to prepare for this potential collapse. Now we
may think we are acting as individuals but really we are not. The only
reason we have the ability to prepare in the first place is because we can
make use of the division of labor THAT IS SUPPLIED TO US BY THE EXISTING
SOCIAL ARRANGEMENTS. Our society is an organization of the division of
labor. We think we are preparing as sole individuals but we delude
ourselves, inspiring a false sense of confidence that since I have the
ability to prepare then I can make it on my own after the collapse. What
most people are forgetting is that others implicitly aided my preparations
because I was able to make use of the division of labor as it exists. After
the shut down of the power grid, that division of labor supplied by the
organization of our current society will not exist. We, in the most literal
sense, will be on our own.

I point this out to illustrate something I think a lot of people are not
recognizing because I didn't recognize it either. Half of preparing for the
collapse caused by a grid failure has to be planning for the rebuilding
process on the other side of the collapse. Our society's division of labor
will not be available after the collapse. That means we are going to be
forced to build our own division of labor from the ground up... on a very
small scale. But to do that, we can not think only in terms of individual
action as we are use to thinking. We can think we are acting as individuals
now but that is only an illusion made possible by the supply of the division
of labor our society gives us each and every minute.

So when I look for that country property where my family and I can weather
the storm, I am also forced to think about how we are going to begin anew on
that property after the storm has passed. Suddenly it occurs to me that I
can't do that as an individual. I still need the division of labor of at
least three or four families working together to reproduce on a very small
scale what society use to provide for us automatically before the Reset
button was hit.
I heard on my local news today that the computers went down yesterday 9/9/98
on the national Benefits Agency ( Welfare ) here in the UK. The item said that
millions of people could be paid the wrong money, and gave the impression
that the problem was still not fixed today. The system is new!!! no one was
able to comment on the reason for this.
Siemens and Fujitsu have just announced the closure of two semiconductor
plants here in the North East of england......another two thousand people
less to work on the problem of replacing embedded chips.

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:53 - ID#350282)
Serious question on Biblical Text Manipulation software:

Is it simply a numeric position skip parser?
If so, you would might get impressive results using any large text base.

A test might be to put in "nonsense" input and see what you get.

For example ( for the fun of it ) , try:


I'm pretty sure you'll get hits on those too.
If it gives the answer "42" or "Douglas Adams", I'll buy it myself.

Good luck & gogold.

For the record:
Weekly readjustment of exit triggers
Low XAU = 56.37
High = 78.29

(Thu Sep 10 1998 23:54 - ID#431200)
Monica,the world stocks market are trembling
Nikkei 225 down 764 points,Gold is at 291.10 up 0.90