Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 00:26 - ID#373403)
Future of manufacturing
This is a technology I am currently contemplating investing into for manufacturing jewelry.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 00:32 - ID#290202)
...extremely hard to access Kitco these days...
...wonder why? Is it overload, or that moving back-up thing-a-mabob, or...?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:03 - ID#433172)
I think your are right for the reasons you give. Inflation is the only politically tolerable choice for government, and we have it already according to the money supply growth and the stock market bubble. If money comes out of bonds as Gollum says we are in for it.
The question is really wether we have inflation or deflation, and all furthur decisions come from that decision.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:08 - ID#290202)
...extremely hard to access Kitco these days...
...wonder why? Is it overload, or that moving back-up thing-a-mabob, or...?

Lan Man
(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:23 - ID#320108)
@The So-Called
by James Turk/The Freemarket Gold & Money Report

Clearly, LTCM is going to remain on the front pages for weeks, if not months. It will have a big and untold knock-on effect, with both short-term and long-term implications. In the short-term the hedge funds that borrowed Gold like LTCM did ( short Gold, long Russian bonds, now there's a wise trade only two Noble laureate college professors could put together! ) will soon have to begin repaying those loans because many lenders of Gold will be unwilling to accept the credit risk. Consequently, we'll see a contraction in Gold lending much like after the Drexel collapse, which owed and failed to repay the Bank of Portugal 17 tonnes of Gold ( central bankers aren't much smarter than Nobel laureates! ) .

Rest at:

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:26 - ID#228128)
A little birdie told me
This evening I talked to E-trade regarding a trade of mine that they fouled up. In the course of the conversation they told me it would take a while to get back to me with the information that I required because they were very busy handling margin calls on customers.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:28 - ID#25490)
It's a conspiracy
after casting the bones ( dem bones ) I now understand that the Great Kitco Slowdown is a foul and dastardly PLOT by:

a ) Dr Mahatir of Malaysia to control all news about anything
b ) Michel Camdessus ( whispered sotto voce so as not to upset tolerant1 )
c ) MC's Dog who acts independently of his master
d ) Glintin clintin and his talking cigar
e ) Andy Smith
f ) Peter Munk
g ) Gartman of the Gartman Letter
h ) Guzzman with nightmare of helicopters
i ) The illuminati looking for Adam Weishaupt
j ) The Federal Reserve just because we know of the greenback farce
k ) A smattering of scions of Rothschild who'd never miss a conspiracy
l ) A Greenspan who used to post but was 404'ed
m ) NASA cos Mozel is closer to the truth than is comfortable
n ) The IMF who want to charge for allowing Bart to provide this free
o ) Hashimoto san who really is selling Tbonds
p ) The PPT ( too late boys, the cat's out of the bag )
q ) the NWO who want a new acronym
r ) Wall St Brokerages upset at losing a king's ransom this month
s ) 19 Japanese Banks upset losing a king's ransom every day for a year
t ) 4 2
u ) The Rosswell cover-up squad who can't find any silvermen here
v ) Ned Ludd, still pissed at the cotton jenny
w ) Vronsky ( where is dat boy? )
x ) ANOTHER for not getting paid for THOUGHTS here
y ) Not?
z ) the 26th letter of the alpabet: omega,it's all over: 00/00/00

Acting individually or in concert to thwart the continuing growth of the independent minds at kitco.



John Disney
(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:29 - ID#24135)
A nasty forecast ..
For SWP1 ..
Bill2j forecast posted last night is pretty close to son's.
He sees a good time rally on the sp500 to peak out Nov.
17. He sees gold in a dicey wave 3 up on the daily but
running out of steam that may carry the mines maybe
another 10 per cent. BUT on the weeklys gold in a
controlling wave 4 correction up which if/ when it
breaks into a wave 5 down will be nasty to experience.
He sees worse for platinum .. a break of 330 gives you
300 as a near certainty. He sees 110 at best for the yen
but 155/160 later on.
On the JSE-gold he sees 1450/1500 if you feel lucky
followed by maybe 400/500.
Then he sees a massive increase in the gold price.
All can change .. a gold price increase through 320
or thereabouts may cause major changes .. life was
never meant to be easy.

Lan Man
(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:35 - ID#320108)
@more of Masters of the Universe
I say 'massively short' because the numbers at the time were staggering. They had to deliver Gold on 9,000 Comex options, or 900,000 ounces of Gold. This number, though considered huge and almost unfathomable in 1985, pales in comparison to the short position in LTCM. It is less than 10% of LTCM's exposure, and not even 1% of Frank Veneroso's estimated short position in the hedge fund community today.

Think about these numbers for a minute. If covering a 900,000 ounce short position in 1985 led to a $50 rally that kicked off a new 2-year bull run, what will covering a number 100 times that weight of Gold will do to the Gold price today? Go ahead, let your imagination run wild for a minute.


Love the way JTurk writes

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:43 - ID#424394)
Gold vs Guns as investments
Looking for investment opportunities and barter items.
Small caliber handguns and ammo therefore could be
some of the most lucrative investments possible - short
of toilet paper for people changing diets. Beyond that,
most any defense rifle or shotgun - especially semi-auto
or full auto ( if you can get them ) could be thousands
in 1998 dollars - more than many ounces of Gold coins!

Look at the examples of previous wars, revolutions, etc.
The arms merchants made out like the bandits they are.
Even in the midst of famine - there are always groups
who will buy arms for use against each other in fights
over food, territory, fuel, etc.

This is a pretty sorry outlook upon society but it falls in the
same class of stocking up on tobacco, cannabis seed, and
various alcoholic beverages and the supplies for brewing more.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 01:56 - ID#424394)
Snippet from a snippet that Sharefin posted elsewhere
He can't put everything here since K1 is supposed to be a Gold forum.

- Here is the body of a letter written by a journalist!!
- Mike:
- I'd like to thank you for the heads-up on the report in the
- Sunday Times of London regarding the Year 2000 computer problem.
- It was very sobering to read the report that bankers and business
- executives in England are advising friends
- to stock up on canned food, and to arm themselves against looters,
- should computer failure on 01/01/00 lead to anarchy.

Where does Gold figure into such an anarchist scenario?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:09 - ID#25490)
Trying this a second the puta time first time I crashed, tell me why I shouldn't be paranoid.
I found this in "The Standard Catalogue of World Gold Coins" ( kindly given to mois by Nick@C )


"Modern gold 'Peso' fantasies of Maximiliam exist. Five varieties exist, some dated 1865. One has an eagle in a plain field above a wreath on the reverse. One the second type a numeral '1' appears to either side of the eagle and the metallic content is designated below. LEY-ORD-K22."

I don't have spanish but I guess that means 22K gold, yes?

From the same catalogue I see there was only one gold coin issue during the 'reign' of The Emperor Maximilian ( 1864-67 ) that was in 1866. The legend on the obverse reads: MAXIMILIANO EMPERADOR.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:34 - ID#252286)

The F scab wrote the following ( I think to PH ) :

"I shall join you at USA Gold or at golden-eagle for future discussions and leave here once and for all. Yes, I know, I have threatened to do so in the past, ultimately returning again. However, I am more encouraged to depart now since I know Kosares and Vronsky have stated categorically they will not put up with such LGBISTIC / RJUJUBE nonsense."

To which I can only offer the tried and true advice once again about avoiding the hazards inherent in allowing the egress portal to forcefully strike him in the posterior during his hasty retreat.

Goodbye, we all love you, now go away.

Rest assured that should you revert to your sniping ways, a myriad of posts will rain from up on high and the heavens above will seem to conspire against you. You forget, you are always the one to blow it first. Ultimately you are one of the most easily baitable fellows I have ever come across. Got three passwords on one site and four on the other site. I could get thrown of daily and keep coming back. I have unlimited e-mail addresses. A man so convinced of his own cleverness should realize the path of least resistance is to leave my name out of it. If not, I predict you will be thrown off those sites before I or my friends are. This is a waste of effort to test, but the key of it is in your own hands. Just remember that I am better at this than you and you cannot win the battle I have planned for you.

Also remember that I am very naive, truly, I have NO idea. I will do so with remarkable, carefree abandon, convinced that there will never be any negative repercussions to my continuous assault.

You also denigrate the Kitco forum and suggest that:

"Still, it seems to make more sense to get free quotes off Yahoo! or Bloomberg than Kitco. What is the point of coming here if it takes forever to load data...and forever to post material? It's an enormous waste of time. I believe that if he does not quickly remedy the problem, then a competitive site will arise shortly."

Those folks are already trying to compete with Bart, and they suck so far. A bunch of F spots waiving pom poms, you fit right in.

You wrote:

"They are so full of shit! Whatever makes some jackass think that if they served in the Armed Forces, somehow that makes them a great patriot? How patriotic was Calley at My Lai?"

So, Fgrub -

This is the same line of thinking that give birth to your racist thinking, is it not? This general lumping together, as a class, of all people of a type, for the simple reason that you do not like one or two people of the same ilk? I am sure that the men and women that died for your country and your right to live your life, and buy your gold, are deeply appreciative that you lump them all together with a murdering wanker. You have always had a strongly anti-American bent to you ramblings and your contempt and hate for our great nation is evident for all to see.

As the bumper sticker said, Love it or leave. This goes for Kitco too, paly. You have the right to hate America, that is what make this country great - its tolerance of USA hating jerks like you. And, while I do believe you are one of the silliest folks I have ever come across, filled as you are with self import and boasting of a second class education with a bunch of pious liberals, I will stand up for your right to be as foolish as you like in front of the whole world. Unless, of course, you choose to bring my name into it, in which case my friends and I should be able to dice you up like that scrambled eggs and ham breakfast the have at Denny's. Been at least a decade since I had one of those, but the picture is clear: Little figurative chunks of Fworm bits that go squish beneath our Reebock's and we grind them into the pavement.

I am pleased you have decided to join the adoring masses at the other sites, you are useless here because nobody reads you. You can now be useless there with many more people reading you. Some will rise up to call you on the load of crap you pass off as knowledge. I predict you will think they are all myself, or LGB, or Realistic. Maybe there names will be tYoung, hENRYd, and ph, or maybe even bART or LEFRAF. You will think that the same folks ( you imagine to be only one person ) have followed you, and are now continuing the exposition of your constant boneheaded proclamations. This thought will be foremost in your mind whenever a critical and logical thinker challenges your absurd conclusions.

This is an amusing thought. No matter who calls you on your crap, you will always ultimately think it is I who am doing it. This is the best kind of justice.. The kind that keeps on giving. Who knows, I could pop in from time to time to assure myself that you are not continuing the crusade against me or my friends. I told you before to leave my name out of it. I have posted nothing to you for at least a month. Why do you feel the need to bring my name into it once again? This is not wise, but wisdom has never oozed out of your pours, has it?

I will waste no time in pointing out the multitude of ridiculous boners contained altogether within your vapid pronouncements of the last few days. I have tired of that game for now. But I would not hesitate to rouse myself in righteous and noble spirit to once again piss a thunderous jihad all over you. This is an easy thing for me, and a practice not without some merits. It is not all that easy coming up with new ways to put you down, so the brain is stretched and the imagination kneaded so that I may again sally forth to smite the infidel with a deftness of aplomb rarely seen in these parts.

So, unless you want a new generation of readers to be aware of your maniacal rantings, your market blunders, and your complete and constant WRONGNESS of these markets, leave me out of it.

Let it go.

Go away.. And stay away
Nobody likes you here.
Not even those whom you think do.
You are an embarrassment, but you have no shame.
So take your shameless, worthless posterior elsewhere

And remember my warning about the egress portal

Oh, and



(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:34 - ID#153110)
@Reply to Bugall & Nick@C
The response I have gotten to my challenge to the acolytes in the Church of the Moon Walk Fraud has definitely increased my respect for Galileo.

The figure of 249 degrees Fahrenheit is interesting and suggestive, but not very informative about the actual quantity of heat which would have to be dealt with by reflective and cooling countermeasures during a moon voyage and walk. And it says nothing about x-ray and gamma ray exposure. But, it does quantify that the heat physics and life support science problem is substantial. And it nails the lie in the movie of Apolo 13.

Earth orbit is not deep space. The ionosphere extends up 250 miles. Orbital flight is not spaceflight. Satellite craft are not spacecraft. Though NASA misleadingly refers to both environments equally as space, EVA from a shuttle in earth orbit is a far cry from EVA on the moon.

I think NASA influences our opinion through film and other media which are prepared and edited for the purpose of maintaining belief in the Moon Walk Fraud and in the feasibility of "Travel To The Stars" and other science fiction. So long as you have the assumption in mind that there could not be an intent to deceive in the information delivered by NASA, then the willing suspension of disbelief in what you are shown exists before the show even starts. Reporting that you watched the Apollo series again is like saying, "I was beginning to question and think about the heat physics, but then I went back for visual reinforcement therapy."

No one can tell from the televised image and audio whether or not the portrayed event was staged or actual. The news media were managed and controlled then just as thoroughly as they were during the Gulf War. They were briefed and given feeds. Telemetry data and radio transmissions do not infallibly tell their source in the signal. Didn't NASA even title the main front guy, the Mission Director ? A rock is a rock. Could NASA have sent equipment into moon orbit and onto the moon's surface ? Yes.

One bottom line is that we do not have scientific proof that man walked on the moon.

The other bottom line is that NASA decisively convinced public opinion of the Moon Walk Fraud with its film and audio presentations, Mission Control room scenes, technology, press releases, and Mr Clean Jeans public affairs image campaign. The US made no territorial claim to the moon, so there is no territorial motive for any foreign government to engage the US on this propaganda front. Suppose for a moment that I am correct about the heat physics. Would you want, with just the science of heat physics on your side and the NASA propaganda machine against you, to try to convince the opinion of a scientifically ignorant ( e.g. see the post on Thermodynamics 101 & Fred's in reply ) and indifferent ( See Oak's post "What does it matter if it was fake?" ) public that what NASA showed was a fraud ? Would you advise a government to try ? I think the dialogue on this forum answers that question.

I have the impression, Bugall, that given your preference for believing official, conventional presentation over independent, reasoned thought about the physical world that you could have sat on the jury in To Kill A Mockingbird. But, I appreciate your implied admission that it is possible for doubt about the moon walk to be reasonable.

You will, I hope, likewise grant that I am reasonable when I doubt your assertion that government has disclosed fully and completely everything in its files and about its secrets that it could disclose.

"Ockham's razor also Occam's razor. Also called law of parsimony.

"Never multiply explanations or make them more complicated than necessary. An explanation should be as simple and direct as possible"

"It is vain to do with more that can be done with less." William of Occam ( attributed to ) ( c. 1285-1349 ) , English monk, philosopher Occam's Razor.

A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known."

OK, I saw an Indonesian on TV and he struck a newspaper with his bare hand and set it on fire. ( And what was it that Cohen saw there ? ) I saw Geller bend a spoon with his mind. So, here is new phenomena. What does Occam say ?

Now, here are images said to be of a man on the moon and rocks said to be from the moon. What does Occam say ?

I think what he says is that what is already known is that man and governments can trick the eye and lie. The competing theory that man, film, cameras, transmitters, and other equipment fully functioned and survived for hours without harm in a place where objects can heat to 249F in a perfect insulating vacuum is not so simple, is it ?

But, the whole difference between the two phenomena lies in our pre-existing attitudes. In whether the magic is shown with or without official blessing, in whether the magic is shown as done with or without the aid of technology.

In all candor, at the site you pointed to, I can't see that much difference in the photos taken during astronaut training and those purportedly taken on the moon. Did you examine them skeptically or with a sense of wonder ?

Not too long ago a modem company won a big government contract in Washington based on a presentation featuring a black box with blinking colored lights. But, they were charged with fraud when it was revealed there was no reality behind the show. With the moon walk show the government has done a deception that is not actionable as fraud though fraudulent. Why ? Because USG has announced to the people and to the world that it is governing since FDR by necessity of emergency and by war power. It also announced it was in a state of cold war with the communist bloc of nations. ( It is also at war with poverty, cancer, drugs, and terrorism. ) It has every legal basis in the Law of Nations to use deception in war. The first deception of this government is that it is authorized by the Constitution and bound by it. The people accept that deception, wanting a king over them as have the other nations. The Moon Walk Fraud was a deception that helped USG win the Cold War. The people believe that deception. Other governments accept it. Individuals who have been screened and selected, who are eager and who want to participate, are not going to expose a deception when they are under threat of a national security indictment and their career depends on cooperating with the program. The moon walk was a diversionary show of war, like the fake Patton army in England, not academic science or civilian adventure.

As RJ is fond of saying, you cannot evaluate information without knowing the source. Well, consider the source of the information you have about the moon walk. The source is a government at war, governing by necessity of emergency and by war power, necessarily engaged, therefore, in ongoing deception. A.K.A. mind control.

Now, as an aside, what should our expectations be of USG regarding Y2K ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:34 - ID#388404)
Hello Schultz: Apriciated your comments on the deflation lie issue.
Could you clarify how you think gold will be revalued to higher $? What mechanism do you suppose? It seems to me that until joe six cannot find anything of value in his life gold will remain in it's "imagined" value held there by them that like to control gold using printable paper. Are there any other factors that might play into this?
I am experiencing deflation of wages, work, and competative component prices but my gold investments are not counter balancing yet. And I understand and agree with your reason why. But I have yet to see a true natural mechanism reassert itself. Hhhmmmmmm.....
Perhaps I am putting to much faith in the natural laws to route political manipulation.
PS almost have the rumpus room sheet rocked. Maybe we will have a local Kitco
survivors party after DROOY goes to $250/share ( :- )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:39 - ID#424394)
Aurator - you ran out of letters
The answer to your paranoia "ALL OF THE ABOVE"

Any one of those dastardly villains could simply put a few computers on an endless loop of downloading full days worth of posts and Kitco would be brought to its knees. SOLUTION - restrict downloads of posts to one time period at a time and at least 5 or 10 minutes between them. It would be nice to be able to load every few minutes to stay on top of market action so perhaps shorten the time interval for "short text" views.

Shorter posts and a screen to reject duplicates would help too.
I agree with the idea of restricting posts to several hundred words
except maybe after midnight until 6am ( Kitco time ) or routing them
automatically over to the backup site. Newspapers and authors of letters to the editor have found that readers skip long letters ( over 500 words ) .
Some readers, who are pressed for time in trying to read everything that they should, may skip anything over 300 words. During the trading day, I think that anything over 300 words may be skipped or barely scanned unless it is a darn slow day.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:44 - ID#25490)
Cargo cults are coming to win us, they're coming to win us,...

Wow, brother, you know your stuff! Your mirror is excellent! Posting rights too.

However, I suspect your *sterling* work may soon be redundant. My bones ( dem bones ) tell me that Weds 14 Oct will see the next version of kitco. Have patience gold bugs. Help is at hand. Kind of like a Cargo Cult, you gotta wait, you gotta "say the right things" but most importantly....YOU GOTTA BELIEVE....THAT'S RIGHT, BROTHER & SISTER GOLDBUGS....YOU GOTTA BELIEEEEEEVE....GOLDBUGS: BELIEEEVE THAT ON THAT WONDERFUL AND BLESSED WEDNESDAY 14 OCTOBER BART WILL EXPLAIN ALL AND TAKE US ON A TURBOCHARGED ROCKET SHIP TO PARADISE..... UNTIL THEN, BE PATIENT, BROTHERS AND SISTERS,

Thank you.

Thanks also to Bart, who will make an appearance very soooooon.....

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:45 - ID#424394)
Best example of a post worth skipping is
Mozel's "1231 more words" on the "Moon Walk Fraud".
I wonder...
How did the laser reflector get up there?
Aliens? or maybe teleportation?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:47 - ID#255151)
Credit Crunch

Informative read here.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:54 - ID#424394)
Internet is a fraud, cybernauts are figments of imagination
All the posters here could be Turing experiments. They could all be just one person playing with him/her self - or maybe aliens mucking with our heads. How do we know that there really is a Mozel, or Sharefin or Squirrel or Aurator or Tolerant1. This is all a dream. Gold is merely a construct of our minds - a figment of our imagination - no more real than a fiat note.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 02:55 - ID#227238)
"The figure of 249 degrees Fahrenheit is interesting and suggestive, but not very informative about the actual quantity of heat ...."

I'll leave the rest of your disputation alone but, at least on the above score, you're correct. The 249 degrees is mostly meaninless because the actual temperature would be determined by any number of factors. Not the least of which would be:
1. Absorbtion and reradiation characteristics of the object. ie, it's relationship to the characteristics of the ideal black box.
2. The thermal storage characteristics of the material. ie, how much does the temperature rise for given quantity of heat? ( It's not the same for all materials. ) Influenced by 1. above obviously.

I'll give it a rest at that point.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:04 - ID#255151)
Grizz-- The Proof

No machine could have dreamed up tolerant1 : )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:06 - ID#341227)
RJ...still psychotic as ever... are a nutcase, just like Little Green Booger.

I still enjoy reading your posts, full of youthful arrogance, narcissism, and misanthropy.

WHy don't you drop the Jujube crap and post under your real name, RJ of MONEX? No guts, that's why.

Isn't it awful that you warned me and I chose to ignore your divine injunction? Isn't it just a crime?

I despise your anti-American rant, your support of this false Bull market
that will ultimately destroy the savings of so many grandmothers and innocents to your benefit.

I resent your constant racist attacks, your usage of a defamatory term for Jews ( Jujube ) over and over again.

Your presumption of knowing these metals markets is so pathetic. Calling for Plat to be over 400 at this time? What happened? How many investors have been harmed by your misguided, misinformed advice?

Calling for gold to never break 300 this year? What happened? Gold broke through that impenetrable barrier while you were probably shorting it into the ground.

Don't presume to imagine you can intimidate me! Don't presume to ever think you can con me!



(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:06 - ID#25490)
I know my letters :- )

"Acting individually or in concert to thwart the continuing growth
of the independent minds at kitco."

All possibilities covered

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:12 - ID#153110)
The Moon Walk Fraud and the Gold Market have this in common. The same people have an interest in messing with your mind in both cases.

The response of individuals on this site when I asked for factual scientific explanation of how the heat phsyics and life support problems were overcome to accomplish a moon voyage and moon walk evaluates for me and others the likely quality of their reasoning on gold market issues.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:15 - ID#293184)
Well done. Enjoyed it, esp. "It is vain to do more that can be done with less" ( minimalism )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:18 - ID#411320)
Get ready for a real dow roller coaster ride tomorrow
Hope you all have your diving gear on after a 8200 break to

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:30 - ID#31868)
Aurator, Grizz, Namaste' gulps and puffs to one and all...
what would man be without Dreams...trying to comprehend reality is like trying to hold a fist full of sand...or the man that has two ears and never allows them to hear the woman that Loves him...

If only we could understand what that Fig Meant...

Cage Rattler
(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:31 - ID#33184)
Any news on the policy board meeting in Japan ?

Paul Gold
(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:31 - ID#21484)
DROOY Information
Did you know that Durban Roodepoort Deep actually consists of 11 gold mines? All of these are not currently being mined. These facts and a lot more can be found in the latest annual report now at

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:37 - ID#153110)
It was not equipment, but man on the moon that was doubted. I did note that the laser ranging experiments were reported to return only a single photon to earth. I would be surprised if there were many scientists with the equipment to detect a single photon returning to earth. So, I have a question about how much independent verification of the laser ranging that we actually have.

Cage Rattler
(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:39 - ID#33184)
Dollar falling fast against German mark - US Bank offloading ...

Cage Rattler
(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:44 - ID#33184)
Japan's cabinet gave final approval on Tuesday to a plan to inject
43 trillion yen ( $361 billion ) into the nation's ailing banking sector.

John Disney
(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:54 - ID#24135)
Law of probabilty ..
To All Moonwalkers ..
Now that grizz AND bugal have established that they
BOTH firmly believe in the veracity of the "men on the
moon" saga ( forget Nick .. Queenslanders believe
anything ) .. I can see clearly that it MUST have been
a fake. The chance of the two chaps being correct ..
SIMULTANEOUSLY is the equivalent of two one thousand to
one shots winning the daily double .. BLOODY UNLIKELY!!
ERGO .. moon landing was fake .. forget thermodynamics.
You can rule it out on statistical grounds.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 03:56 - ID#252391)
To Rhody
See any hope for gold and silver?? Looks like the commericals have sold to the small specs. Failure today - rather failure to continue XAU's recovery rally would seem the kiss of death.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:01 - ID#252391)
To John Disney
South Africans opening 3% lower taking out yesterday's lows!!??

Any comments^JGAI&d=5d

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:01 - ID#333126)
korea is insolvent

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:08 - ID#333126)
japan's spending a hecka lotta money on those banks

btw, Nick@C, are you still gonna hold that RSG through the Preston meeting? could be dicey ( imho only, of course )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:11 - ID#31868)
Mozel, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...with regards to the Moon...Hmmmmmm...
I introduce you to...Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill..."Is the surface of the Earth really the right place for an expanding technological civilization?"
-- Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill

let it load in your browser...yowser...yup...uh huh...

as the hand held reciever hit the plastic when I heard of his exit...I wept...what a loss we suffered that day...what a loss...Lexington, KY...Old Vine Street...when I heard that news...

if you have the opportunity...visit the Executive Director there now...

remarkable Lady...

Dreams do exist...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:12 - ID#153110)
@Government Without A King

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:18 - ID#224363)
A snip from Bill Murphy
This snipped from his latest gold commentary...

It is no secret that our Fed is trying to inject money into our financial system. From former Fed Governor, Wayne Angell," We have never seen an outpouring of liquidity like this by the Federal Reserve". The reason according to analysts surveyed by Reuters," Deep losses suffered by hedge funds and bank proprietary trading desks in recent months has led to a pullback in capital and credit available in most global markets", analysts said.

With money pouring into the system, our Fed and Secretary Treasury Rubin do not want it to appear that the fight against inflation has been thrown out the window.

As public evidence of that, they want the price of gold to diddle, so as not to sound a weak paper money ( dollar ) alert. In addition, they know that other financial entities are using gold as a cheap borrowing source. They do not want that source disrupted for the time being and they do not want these entities to have to cover their gold shorts at this point in time for many obvious reasons.

- End of Snip

I think the interesting thing about Bill's comment is that if liquidity and image is what this is all about, the POG is going to oscillate in a tight range of $280 to $310 from quite some time. The abundance of gold seems to be well documented via low lease rates.

Personally I'm starting to agree with Rhody on lease rates. If we don't see those rates well above 1%, there is no gold bull market.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:18 - ID#401460)
Precious Metals

MOSCOW ( AP ) - Five people have been killed so far this year trying to steal wires from power lines in the Jewish Autonomous Region in eastern Russia, a Russian news agency reported today.

A 13-year-old boy was seriously burned in the latest attempted theft on Monday, the ITAR-Tass news agency said, quoting an official for the Birobidzhan power company, Vladimir Ryabtsev.

Stealing wires from power lines is a common crime in Russia. The wires, which contain copper, are sold or used for scrap metal.

ITAR-Tass said thieves have stolen 56 miles of wires from power lines in the region, which borders China, and damaged 28 power stations.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:28 - ID#153110)
@T1 Yes, dreams certainly do exist.
But, it's A Bombs that seem to get built.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:48 - ID#284255)
I'm not really here ( :- ) ) )

Global economic crisis fueled by Asian, Japanese, Russian, Brazilian and
Latin- American declines. Global weather upheavels wreaking community
and economic havoc, declining stocks and stockmarket, spreading disease
epidemics, threats from global warming and the ozone layer, Nato
threatening strikes and possibilities of escalating wars around the
globe, burgeoning lack of nuclear accountability, unknown effects of
pollution and mutations such as pfisteria, social upheavels including
our children gunning one another down in schools,---and then add y2k as
a factor and it's potential impact on the economy and the world's
infrastructure. We live in a culture of specializtion and tend to look
primarily at one thing at a time such as y2k by itself or one of the
other items mentioned. Nature and reality are not specialized but rather
global, ecletic, systemic and wholistic. If one could step out into
space and look down on the earth as whole and at everything happening at
once---I believe it would be truly shocking and overwhelming. One would
observe I believe a great deal of denial and a crisis, a crisis of
perception, of awareness of what we are doing.

Back to specialization and economics

"Asia is facing its most severe economic crisis."

"We have to see this as a global issue, as a global challenge, and the
solution should be at a global level."

"We are today at a critical juncture," "if we don't reverse course we
face the biggest crisis since the 30's." ( quotes from included page ) ts.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 04:52 - ID#284255)
Clinton view
A number of foreign governments prefer Bill Clinton, warts and all, to Al Gore.


By Warren Hough

American voters, who regard Vice President Al Gore as a somewhat stiff,
plodding, but basically predictable figure, might be surprised by the
nicknames this seemingly bland politician has attracted among U.S. allies
around the world. Foreign diplomats who spoke to The SPOTLIGHT, most on the
promise of anonymity, point out he is notorious for his involvement in some
of the Clinton administration's worst lies and most nefarious policies.

Among financial and political insiders in Moscow, for instance, Gore is
known as "The Knuckle", a 19th century term for the strong-arm attendant who
used to accompany crooked Russian gamblers. They were known to serve tea
with rum to card players who were oblivious of being cheated, and then
protected the shyster's getaway in case of trouble. Well-informed Middle
Easterners often refer to the vice president as "The Needle". They,
apparently, are alluding to trusted courtiers of the once-powerful Ottoman
empire, who were assigned to "terminate" suspected rivals or critics of the
sultan. The method of choice: by surreptitiously injecting poison into their
food from hollow silver needles.


"Gore is despised in Russia for good reason," says Dr. Ruslan Volkov, a
Russian sociologist on a year's research sabbatical at the State University
of New York. "Remember that ever since the Democrats took over the White
House, the vice president was the point man for the Clinton administration's
drive to reform the remnants of the once-feared evil empire. What Gore did
was to strike a back-room alliance with some of the most rapacious and
cunning self-promoters in Moscow. Among them was Viktor Chernomyrdin, a
long-time Soviet bureaucrat who had managed to turn Russia's huge gas
reserves into a corrupt personal fiefdom after the communist regime's
collapse. With Gore's support, Chernomyrdin soon became prime minister of
the Russian Federation, the heartland of the former Soviet Union.
Chernomyrdin and his retinue, a clique of Zionist financiers backed by gangs
of killer thugs, stole whatever they could, and what they did not steal,
they corrupted," recounted Volkov.

With senior officials appointed by Chernomyrdin as willing accomplices,
Russia's priceless natural resources such as oil, gold, timber and diamonds
were hawked on the black market, for the most part abroad. The proceeds were
then stashed in bulging numbered bank accounts all over Western Europe,
regional experts say. Following the lead of billionaire currency trader
George Soros, another favored Gore associate, international speculators
trashed the ruble, Russia's national currency, and looted the country's
hard-money reserves.


During these years, when he held frequent meetings with Russian leaders and
attended the monthly meetings of a joint committee on "democratization" he
co-chaired with Prime Minister Chernomyrdin, Gore never uttered a word of
caution or restraint about the brutal plunder of Russia's national wealth,
these sources noted. "Just the contrary, Gore kept pushing for more and more
financial aid for the gangster regime in Moscow, including billions from
American taxpayer's the vice president must have known would simply be
stolen," asserted Derek Powell, a British broadcast correspondent who was
stationed in Moscow during the mid & 90's. Last month, with Russia's economy
in ruins and millions of its people facing a winter of misery and famine,
Russian President Boris Yeltsin made another attempt to put his crony,
Chernomyrdin, who quit earlier this year, in charge again as prime minister.
The Russian parliament rejected the nomination with a blaze of furious
oratory. Had he been present in Moscow, Gore could have heard himself
denounced by name as "Mr. Big", the corrupt political wirepuller of
innumerable American gangster movies, and as "accomplice to the criminals
who had stripped Russia to the bone," recounted Powell.


"This may present the long-delayed opportunity for the U.S. Congress to take
a closer look at the role played by Gore and the Clinton administration in
the plundering and pauperizing of Russia's national economy," commented Dr.
Paul Adler, the noted international economic consultant. But Washington
insiders doubt Gore will face a legislative probe anytime soon.

"The vice president has built an intimate alliance with the most aggressive
leaders of the Israel lobby on Capitol Hill," said a former counsel to the
House Commerce Committee, who on second thought, asked not to be quoted by
name. "Gore makes sure AIPAC ( the American Israel Public Affairs Committee )
and its cohorts get what they want from the White House, whether Bill
Clinton himself wants it or not," this well-placed source related. These
enormously powerful alien pressure groups protect Gore in turn, making sure
he stays "clean", gets good press and stays in the running as a leading
contender for the presidency.

"At least, that's what they've done till now, explained Dr. Pierre Oweiss,
the respected Middle Eastern political scientist. "Islamic leaders don't
call Gore "The Needle" for nothing. When Clinton tried to keep Israel from
wrecking the so-called 'peace process' in Palestine, Gore subtly poisoned
every U.S. policy designed to put pressure on the Zionists. At the AIPAC
annual conference this year, Gore openly encouraged the ministate's
hard-line government to ignore any cautionary note sounded by Clinton about
their illegal occupation of neighboring Arab lands," this scholarly observer

"In fact, Gore masterminded the appointment of Stephen Grossman, president
of AIPAC and one of Israel's most militant partisans, as chairman of the DNC
( the Democratic National Committee ) ," recalled this scholarly observer.

"That maneuver pulled the rug out from under Clinton and [Secretary of State
Madeleine] Albright, who were trying last spring to push the Israelis into
completing the peace process. Will Gore be able to hold on as the 'Teflon
vice-president?' Will he ever be called to account for his intrigues and
wrongdoing, ready to take over the Oval Office now that Clinton has been
exposed and disgraced? That is the really big question behind the current
White House scandals," asserted Powell.

The term "criminal enterprise" can now be applied to the Russian economy.
Can the same term apply to the American economy?


STORY By Martin Mann

The Russian economy is in its death throes, gutted by a cabal of parasitic
Zionist speculators
in cahoots with elite U.S. power brokers, recently compiled scholarly
surveys, including an
internal study by the U.S. Army War College, have revealed. These
disconcerting discoveries
raise urgent questions for Americans: Will the same cutthroat financiers and
corrupt bureaucrats who plundered Russia ,an international consortium joined
by the ethnic
and emotional ties to Israel shared by most of its members, do to the U.S.
economy what they
did to the former Soviet heartland?

It's not an idle question, says Dr. Mirenka Bogovic, a lecturer in economics
at the State University
of New York, who specializes in post-Soviet studies. It seems that the
financiers who looted Russia borrowed some of their tactics, and quite a bit
of their seed money, from Soros and other Wall Street money magnates.


Billionaire currency speculator George Soros, Wall Street's self-styled
master of the universe is by no means the only influential U.S.-based figure
who gave Moscow's criminal elites aid and guidance, added this scholarly
observer. "The Russians depended on Vice President Al Gore for global
political support, on Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan for their entry into
Western money markets, and on Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin for the
economic endorsement that enabled some of the world's worst crooks to borrow
tens of billions of dollars from international institutions such as the
IMF," Dr. Bogovic explained.

In fact, much of the money that went to Moscow via the IMF ( the
International Monetary Fund ) and the World Bank, all of it promptly stolen,
came from the pockets of American taxpayers. The result was that Russia
became a criminal state, academic analysts say. "What we are patronizing and
supporting . . . is the overlapping criminalization of the state and society
. . . the ( Russian ) central government is essentially a criminal
enterprise," concluded a recent survey compiled by the Strategic Studies
Institute of the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Penna.


The internal report, prepared for senior U.S. military commanders, made
available to The SPOTLIGHT by well-placed Pentagon sources, notes that
post-Communist Russia is developing into a "predatory state . . . resembling
failed African dictatorships, not the 'democratic partner' depicted by
official U.S. propaganda. Some of the tactics employed by corrupt officials
and grafting financiers in Moscow resemble the
maneuvers used to enrich self-dealing Wall Street executives, only more so,"
explains another survey compiled at the American University's Center for the
Study of Transnational Crime and Corruption.


"To cite only one example, Russia's national railroads are no longer owned
by the state," notes this paper. "The officials in charge privatized them by
selling the rail network and rolling stock to a company owned by the wives,
sons and nephews of the same officials. These days, the Russian government
rents back its former railroads from this front company at grossly
exorbitant rates, set by the corrupt state officials who now own the
equipment and the track through their relatives. Hundred's of millions of
dollars were stolen and divided up in this case," adds American University's


The recent affair of a failed New York hedge fund, whose speculator bosses
were bailed out by
a 3.5 billion dollar rescue organized by Fed Chairman Greenspan and Treasury
Chief Rubin with the participation of 30 Wall Street banks and brokerages
suggests that corrupt practices that leave taxpayers holding the bag are not
limited to Russia. The SPOTLIGHT will continue its investigation of these
vast transnational scams in future issues.

Sexual activities aside, there's plenty of evidence of complicity in high
crimes by the Clinton administration.


By Martin Mann

While the president's lechery and denials dominate headlines and newscasts
coast to coast, the mainstream media continues to ignore a number of far more
serious lies, perpetrated by Bill Clinton and his White House entourage.

Highlighting this trend, Swiss prosecutors and narcotics investigators
compiled a
confidential report this summer on the drug-dealing, money-laundering and
allied racketeering masterminded by former Mexican President Carlos Salinas,
and his family, with the aid of Wall Street banks. The year-long Swiss
inquiry was triggered by the discovery that President Salinas and his
brother Raul had stashed hundreds of millions of dollars of their ill-gotten
loot in Swiss banks.

Americans learned the details of the secret file on Mexico's former ruling
family on June 22, 1998, from The SPOTLIGHT. This populist newspaper's
investigative team was first to obtain access to the guarded, 370-page Swiss
report from well-placed diplomatic sources. The Swiss findings confirmed, as
first reported by The SPOTLIGHT last year, that the ruinous North American
Free Trade Agreement ( NAFTA ) , as ratified by Congress, was the result of
corrupt conspiracy between the Clinton White House and the drug-ridden
Salinas regime in the early & 90's. By that time, the U.S. government had
more than ample proof that the Salinas administration was little more than a
well-organized crime syndicate, law enforcement sources say.

But Clinton directed Attorney General Janet Reno to suppress the reports of
U.S. investigators. She was instructed by the president to cover up all
evidence incriminating the Salinas administration in order to push NAFTA
through Congress without facing awkward questions about opening up the U.S.
economy to a gangster regime south of the border, these sources have asserted.


On September 19, more than a month after the original SPOTLIGHT scoop, The
New York Times announced on its front page that it had discovered the secret
Swiss investigative report and obtained access to a partial copy of it.
After interviewing more than 90 former drug traffickers, Salinas associates
and other witnesses, the Swiss probers concluded that while it held the
levers of power, the Salinas clan, Mexico&'s first family, used its
widespread influence . . . to organize an elaborate network of protection
for drug smugglers, The New York Times revealed.
"When Carlos Salinas de Gortari became president of Mexico in 1988, [his
brother] Raul Salinas de Gortari assumed control over practically all drug
shipments through Mexico," the Times review of the Swiss findings confirmed.

"For the family of a former president who was once celebrated as the bold
architect of a new relationship between Mexico and the United States, the
man who championed NAFTA and brought to power a new generation of Ivy-league
educated technocrats, the report paints a devastating portrait," the Times
conceded sorrowfully.

What the story does not mention is that The New York Times had been one of
the leading celebrants of the Salinas presidency, hailing this vicious
druglord as a "statesman" and a "reformer" who blazed the way for a "new era
. . . in Mexico's history". But beyond the complicity of the mainstream
media in this mammoth deception operation, the Swiss report raises grave
questions about the role played by the Clinton administration in covering up
the crimes of the Salinas regime in order to promote NAFTA. According to The
New York Times, U.S. law enforcement officials now admit key informants and
the evidence they provided about the Salinas scandals were "misused or
ignored" in Washington until the Swiss sought them out.

Was this the result of an illegal organized cover-up orchestrated by the
White House and executed by Attorney General Reno? A congressional probe of
that issue, involving lies far more damaging to the national interest than
any sexual misconduct, may well link Clinton to high crimes more directly
impeachable than anything in the recent Starr report.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:11 - ID#258195)
Monday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates
For Monday 09 Oct calculated from data published in today's FT.
GOLD------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
Gold Lease Rate-0.64---------------1.50-------------1.63-----------------1.93
( Change ) ----- ( + 0.05 ) -------- ( - 0.03 ) ------- ( - 0.05 ) ------------ ( - 0.09 )

SILVER----------1- month--------3- month-------6- month----------12- month
Silver Lend Rate--4.15--------------3.20--------------2.60-----------------2.15
Silver Lease Rate-1.32--------------2.11--------------2.56-----------------2.76
( Change ) ------ ( - 0.19 ) -------- ( + 0.20 ) ------ ( 0.00 ) ----------- ( - 0.10 )
The lines labelled ( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.
MGLR and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild .
Apologies for the 1 hour delay...............Dabchick

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:21 - ID#31868)
Mozel, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...Full Moon, Miami, Fl...5811 North BayShore
Drive...this was the very point of discussion as my Father was kind enough to share his thoughts with me...May or thereabout's it was at that time...he was not tall...but had a 63 inch chest...would have been one of the BEST Opera kidding...if you have not read nor seen some of the earlier posts...he was the youngest intelligence officer in the European Theatre...wrote speeches for Bradley, Patton...YOUR JEEP did not move unless he signed a piece of paper...

I digress...near the end of his days he forbade me to own a weapon...I belive the word was, is...adamant...

My Father was one of the first to enter the Death Camps...MY Dad was Old School...the ONLY time I saw tears in his EYES was when he first uttered those words of what he witnessed...there...he was a tough puppy...he grew up in Hell's Kitchen during the Depression...

this is actually going somewhere...

for what it is worth...we decided that OUR best weapon is pastry...

reticular does matter...

given the is a sick mind that chooses to hurt and harm...

Atomic Bombs...sheesh...

what we should be is the twist and rub between the index finger and thumb as we twist the draw-string on the curtains so that the yittles do not awaken to the hot Sun...this then is good...

when you take care it is one of the few things in a life that the more you remove you add to...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:26 - ID#26793)
Pakistan in default on $1 billion; likely to default on additional $30 billion

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:33 - ID#26793)
Morning European dollar-yen news and comment.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:38 - ID#271125)
The time has come for me as an individual to call BS on the US bug I am but it is time to go short the S & P in addition. They are simply not up to the task ( domestically unwilling ) of holding this planets financial market together given the dilemmas everywhere ..not until all of the dirty laundry hits the floor will smart money begin the bailout ...and that must be after the Y2k issue has been exposed or not as another melting button. Any advice on the best Puts out to probably this time next year ???

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:38 - ID#252391)
Trying out one of the back up servers
Thanks for this service - must stay in touch. Wish to hear from Rhody and Disney on their perspective. Anybody hear from APH - his last call was to buy gold at 292 if I am not mistaken and that isn't stale by now.

Gold hanging in there. The buying from Asia must be substantial to offset the weak technical tone of the market. The general feeling seems to be gold isn't going anywhere - probably will be proven dramatically wrong.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:39 - ID#26793)
Singapore economic conference issues call for capital flow controls

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:45 - ID#39857)
my palms I hold out to spooks to

ye spook behind window be your brother one day,he just
catching up on a backlog of instructions that dont seem right,
spook rebound we shout!......., the energy flows through us and upwards
in a spiral formation.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:46 - ID#26793)
Rupert Murdoch worried about deflation, depression; ad revenue dropping, deals cancelled, etc.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:50 - ID#26793)
Mr. Yen sees worldwide credit crunch; Japan will make it through OK, U.S. will not.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 05:59 - ID#26793)
FLASH! Big global banks to refuse any new money to Brazil

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:06 - ID#31868)
HedgeHog, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...
scripture or your own words?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:09 - ID#386129)
your 4:52 was very illuminating....

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:11 - ID#26793)
Chinese exports fall 6.7% in September.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:17 - ID#303163)
Mirror page for kitco ( articles ) ( adding comments ) Please use these pages before kitco gets overloaded. I'm loading from the same server too. the idea is to have as many users as possible at the mirror, to reduce the load at kitco. e.g. instead of having 200 users reloading at kitco, we have 100 users and the mirror page loading from kitco, 100 over at the mirror page. once kitco gets overloaded, it will be too late to shift. I believe the scripts at kitco does alot of processing ( I/O & CPU ) and gets overloaded easily. the mirror page simply gets text from and generates html files once every 5 minutes. the ideal case is to have most of the users browsing/lurking at the mirror page, leaving kitco's server free to handle the processing of comments and retrieving data for the mirror page. i'm doing this because i want to read what you people write! hope kitco's new server comes soon.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:19 - ID#411440)
@ jims: I don't know that my opinion of the gold market is
worth reading, but one month lease rates are back down under 1%.
IMHO, that means no bull. Silver leases are back down to 2.35% for
one month terms. This means the silver carry is beginning to
operate again, not with much profit margin, but sufficiently to
control the short overhang, ( and add to it ) . This all turns around
if the Fed eases. If the fed lowers Prime another 2 1/4%, that
kills the gold/silver carry for sure. Actually if the fed lowers
Prime by .25%, that kills the silver carry or leases could climb by .25%.

I am still holding gold and silver shares, but did not add to the
portfolio this past month. Just because you have a bottom ( and I
think we do in gold ) does not mean that you have a bull.

Check out J. Disney's post of 1:29. JD's son has been dead accurate
re pms.

I personally think we shall go back down to 285 to 290 unless
Hedge Fund create another crisis, and then gold could spike.
I don't expect much action in gold until early November, and in
silver until early next year. I can wait. I am not a speculator,
and have a long horizon. I don't think short term fluctuations
matter. I don't care if gold bounces around 2 to 5% if it is
doing that bouncing around prices that are 25 year lows. Eventually
this thing will blow. Two to five % fluctuations in the POG mean
6 to 15% swings in share prices. One could take profits, but I'm
going to wait until 1999 to 2003. The traders out there probably
think the above is foolish, but my job and family obligations do
not allow me to hang out at a computer monitor all day worrying about
fractional fluctuations on the stock market.

John Disney
(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:22 - ID#24135)
High Noon .. Joburg
For Jims ..
Jse-gold 1154 off 38 .. near low for day of 1153.
Gapped down on opener ( which I dont have )
very tentative.. Taking profits Harmony slowly .. can see
fall off to 900 ish pretty easily.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:28 - ID#214218)
On the boil again
Brussels, Oct. 12 ( Bloomberg ) - The North Atlantic Treaty Organization authorized air strikes against Yugoslavia if President Slobodan Milosevic fails to halt Serb military forces' attacks against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, NATO officials said. The decision by NATO's governing body followed a briefing by U.S. Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke, who returns to Belgrade for more talks tomorrow with Milosevic. Holbrooke is trying to negotiate a withdrawal of Serb forces and an arrangement for monitoring future compliance with United Nations resolutions. ``We have to maintain this pressure in order to ensure that the process continues moving forward,'' said NATO Secretary General Javier Solana. Any air strikes wouldn't begin for at least four days to give Holbrooke time to complete his negotiations, Solana said. ``The situation is very fluid,'' Solana said. ``This is not a declaration of war,'' he said, adding that Serbian actions in Kosovo are ``legitimate grounds for the use of force.'' NATO issued two orders, one allowing limited air strikes and the order ordering a ``phased air campaign,'' Solana said. He gave no specifics. ``Even at this final hour, I still believe diplomacy can succeed and the use of military force can be avoided,'' he said

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:34 - ID#316193)
Max Moseley -- "Nowhere to run. Nowhere to hide."

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:37 - ID#271125)
LL- The mirror site is much faster..good work
reading advised rather than Kitco direct

(Tue Oct 13 1998 06:51 - ID#365216)
PM percentage split of portfolio?
Looking for opinions on what percentage of one's portfolio should be
in PMs and PM stocks and of the PM physical what should be the split
between gold, platinum, and silver coins? Any recommendations for
a fair and honest coin-selling company?

That is all.

PS Grizz, you are right. Guns, especially good names like
Heckler and Kock, Glock, Sig, COLT, Benelli, can be excellent investments
in good or bad times ( but especially bad ) . Again, no one hopes for this
but who knows. Regarding Class III Weapons, ie machineguns, many states
allow individual ownership if you fill out the paperwork and pay the
tax ( VA is one such state ) and since transferable ones made before
1986 are the only ones allowed for private citizen ownership their
values have skyrocketed ( My non-Colt M16 cost $2700 a year ago and
it didn't even work that well; the same gun goes for about $3500
now. Colt M16s go for $4000-$6000 or more and should continue to climb.
Don't even ask about H&K MP5s. )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:00 - ID#288466)
Test - Posting from the mirror site;

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:01 - ID#386245)
@mozel@Moonwalk "fraud"
Thankyou for your thoughtful reply to our rather snippity posts on the Moonwalk "fraud". Much better without the invective and I shall try to give a brief reply likewise.

I quoted Occam's Razor to you as I have always attempted to use it when dealing with the enormous amounts of information I must incorporate daily. I have tried osmosis, without success ( sleeping on it--as it were ) . As physics is not my forte, I will let others much better qualified reply on the heat physics and life support problems involved. Trinovant gave you a well-reason reply ( Sep't 27, 09:06 ) on those issues.

I have a highly tuned bullsh*t detector built in to my brain. It has served me well during many years of trading, as evidenced by the fact that I am still trading. I agree with you completely that the US government has hoisted fraud upon fraud upon its people. A couple of examples would be the 'Lee Harvey Oswald Killed JFK' fraud, and the 'Vietnam War Money Making' fraud ( BTW--I have the greatest respect for the veterans of this economic war ) . Both frauds served ulterior motives well and were highly successful in their deception of the American public. Both involved cover-ups on a par with the 'Moonwalk' "fraud" you allege.

1 ) My bs detector tells me that the moonwalks actually happened and that they were in a similar class to the Vietnam War, i.e., economics and more particularly the fueling of American industry as the prime motivation.

2 ) People talk!! My bs detector tells me that you could not keep the tens of thousands of people necessarily involved 'quiet'. We would have seen a plethora of 'tell all' books by 'disgruntled scientists,'overlooked for promotion' ladder climbers, and 'born-again-conscience' types. Americans are manipulated--true. But the US is still free enough, especially in information dissemination, that you could not squash all of the people 'in the know' of such a massive deception. It belies all logic and makes a mockery of our good friend Occam. 'Loose lips sink ships' and a Moonwalk "fraud" would have been sunk long ago.

Mozel. I can understand your scientific doubts. I do not think you are giving enough credit to the ingenuity of mankind. Protecting man from the hazards of moonwalking would be a piece of cake. I scuba dive. On a much simpler scale, I am completely protected. Your arguments on a scientific thesis don't stand a chance. You are slightly more credible on the US Government 'fraud' issue. History supports your case. Fraud. YES. However, you got the motive wrong.

Man walked on the moon. US business made a heap of money helping him do it. Cheers, Nick.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:06 - ID#365216)
good MG ownership discertation by an expert in the field
Please see the following for everything you wanted to know and more
about Machine Gun and suppressor ownership. Get a good one and it
will go up in value ( unless of course Uncle Bill becomes a second
amendment supporter ( when pigs fly out of my b$%% ) ) . Anyway here it


(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:15 - ID#350195)
Asian countries having more trouble recovering, conference hears

The economists, businessmen and government officials at the summit which was organized by the Switzerland-based World Economic Forum said they were "deeply concerned about the drift of the world economy and financial markets, and the growing risk of global recession."

In Amazon, quest for gold worries environmentalists

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:21 - ID#119358)
( testing posting from mirrored site ) ........

yes@SDRer.O ( last night's grand post re:contrived price )

yes@T#1 you are a mirrored site of your Father

yes@DizzO buy son a happy meal. ( on me ) deep into .wav files ( becoming expert ( sure.uhHuhH ) call if you need help......ripper programs are incredible! but will destroy my record biz soon.

and as always, GO GOLDBUGS!!! ( back to the muzac debacle ) ........

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:22 - ID#350195)
FOCUS-News Corp's Murdoch worried about recession

"We seem to be moving to a period of deflation, but there is no doubt that we have seen great shocks and we may see more shocks yet," Murdoch told the annual meeting of News Corp Ltd , which he controls.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:23 - ID#386245)
One further aside.

The thought has crossed my mind that you have made a bet with someone that you could use your considerable powers of persuasion to convince an august gathering of ladies and gentlemen that the most preposterous proposition ( chosen by the other party ) is actually true.

If such is indeed the case, then you deserve the 'red-herring of the month' award but do not deserve to collect your bet. N.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:27 - ID#350194)
@Nick@C@7:01 - Totally agree with your reasoning Nick ( although Mozel will think me partial according to my name and e-mail address ;- ) ) . I, along with millions of others, have also taken part due to interest, slight or intense, over the years in questioning all the details in how this great accomplishment was effected. Although a layman, no answers to any questions I ever posed gave me any reason to doubt any scientific capability of any of the tasks necessary to be performed for the successful completion of the moonlanding. G'Day.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:31 - ID#316193)
James Stack on NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT, 10-12-98
"I think that gold has, at least up until this point, provided
a unique contrarian opportunity in this bear market."

Bully Beef
(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:41 - ID#260119)
I have seen the term "CASH IS KING" used many times in the media lately.
I thought someone coined that phrase here about two and a half months ago.The markets may go up short term I belivebut months from now it will drop because there is no foundation for a rally. If you want to make money right now do it the old fashioned for it. ( perhaps steal it )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:49 - ID#43185)
Questions for our resident physicist JTF:

1 ) Is it true that the vaccuum environment near the moon is a much harsher environment for a pace suited astronaut than the vaccuum environment near the earth?

2 ) Is it true that vaccuum is a perfect insulator and that objects in space suffer no heating or cooling effects from the environment?

3 ) Is it true that the silvery coating on the surfaces of a vaccuum thermos flask serve no usefull purpose and that good evidence to support this idea is placing your hand on a chrome plated bumper in the dessert?

4 ) Is it true that the laser ranging experiments doen with the reflector purpotedly placed on the moon bu the astronuats and used to measure the rate of contental drift among other things are all accomplished by the detection of a single photon?

5 ) Is it true that the rocks found in antarctica are identical to the kinds of moon sample purportedly brought back by the alledged moon landers ( perhaps this question should be given to a qualified geologist ) ?

6 ) Is it true that the kind of equipment needed to provide environmental protection for a person on the moon could not possibly have been contianed in the skimpy suits they purportedly wore if indeed it were possible at all?

7 ) Is it true that a goverment would spend far more to fabricate the hoax of having landed men on the moon when actually doing it would have far cheaper ( perhaps ths question should be given to a qualified economist or political scientist ) .

I have several more questions but not enough time right now to pose them. Perhaps later.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:51 - ID#28994)
Bully Beef
Cash is King was a term used in the last great depression.
Very few people had it...if you were King.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 07:56 - ID#43185)
Globex sorta up but looking rather mixed, bonds up ( more flight money? ) ,
Yen down bigtime, dollar down a little, PM's up but softening, Oil and gas upish but mixed.

Very uncertain readings here, one might think volatility, but perhaps just no direction today for the moment.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:07 - ID#386245)
G'day Mooney and Gollum
ANOTHER good reason that the moonwalks weren't faked: GOLD was one of the elements found in the moonrocks. If the US government were faking the results they would have spent an extra billion taking the gold out of the Antarctic rocks!!

I enjoy both of your inquiring minds and perceptive posts. cheers, N.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:14 - ID#43185)
Hail Canada!
Day after day the Canadian dollar keeps quietly rising. Maybe we should be looking into Canadian treasuries.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:27 - ID#43185)
currency and treasury stuff
07:58 US 10-YEAR BOND UP 28/32; YIELD FALLS TO 4.681%.
07:58 US 30-YEAR BOND UP 30/32; YIELD FALLS TO 5.066%.

Crystal Ball
(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:30 - ID#287377)
Nick, I thought better of you. This is not the place for anti-Israel trash like you posted today.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:52 - ID#386245)
Crystal Ball
"...anti-Israel trash."


I do not recall EVER mentioning Israel on this site. Are you refering to another Nick?? I am sure he would not do so either. Would you like to explain your extremely careless use of words, 'sir'!!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 08:54 - ID#26793)
London gold news; sales volume of gold bars in Japan up 40%, platinum 29%

Crystal Ball
(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:03 - ID#287410)
@Nick C
Sorry, I meant "Sharefin" Nick's stuff about Al Gore and the Zionist conspiracy to plunder Russia.

Crystal Ball
(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:09 - ID#287410)
... and there was much more
Date: Tue Oct 13 1998 04:52
sharefin ( Clinton view ) ID#284255:
A number of foreign governments prefer Bill Clinton, warts and all, to Al Gore.


By Warren Hough

...What Gore did was to strike a back-room alliance with some of the most rapacious and cunning self-promoters in Moscow... Among them was Viktor Chernomyrdin, a long-time Soviet bureaucrat who had managed to turn Russia's huge gas reserves into a corrupt personal fiefdom after the communist regime's collapse. With Gore's support, Chernomyrdin soon became prime minister of the Russian Federation, the heartland of the former Soviet Union. Chernomyrdin and his retinue, a clique of Zionist financiers backed by gangs of killer thugs, stole whatever they could, and what they did not steal, they corrupted," recounted Volkov...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:18 - ID#183109)
A picture or two is worth a 1000 words, or at least several THOUSAND PERCENT.

RANDGOLDs SYAMA permit covers 1300 square miles in Mali, and their resource base in this area alone is 6.7 million ounces, with exploration ongoing. Production on the rise...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:21 - ID#30126)
@Stillwater mines SWC
Earnings are out. +18 cents versus 8 cents loss.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:22 - ID#386245)
Crystal Ball
In defence of my good mate Nick ( sharefin ) :

Crystal Ball--I suggest you should be more careful with your accusations. By calling someone anti-Israel and by inference anti-semitic you are abusing your posting privilege on this site. Sharefin posts a myriad of articles on thousands of different subjects. He does not edit or censor these posts. He presents useful information on subjects of interest to all. This article was about Al Gore and just happened to contain some ill-advised statements about Zionism.

I 'know' sharefin well. He hasn't got a racist bone in his body. Your accusation was completely out of place and you owe sharefin an aplogy.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:38 - ID#147201)
Way to go Nick. The mate was falsely maligned, Charlie

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:46 - ID#410194)
@farfel - The stock market
Farfel, can you tell us when will the market collapse as it certainly didnt do so last Spring as you announced it will.


Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 17:50
Once the American stock market collapses ( along with the Dollar ) , there will be significant instablility in the world financial markets. The net effect: essential commodities will revalue themselves upward ( in U.S. dollar terms ) in an astounding slingshot effect

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:51 - ID#410194)
@farfel - New lows in gold
Back in April, you said that Gold wouldn't retest it's lows....

Not only Gold retested its lows but went further down another $25!

Given your past predictions of a bear market in bonds ( the opposite happened ) , a collapse in the stock market in spring ( that didn't happen either, and again the opposite occured with new highs ) and an upcoming so-called short squeeze in Gold that never materialized either, can you tell us what systems and line of thinking you are using when predicting markets and when investing money so that we could all avoid predicting the same way, therefore increasing our chances to be the right side of the markets?


Date: Mon Apr 13 1998 21:19
farfel ( @JTF...I do not believe gold will retest its lows... ) ID#340302:
Copyright  1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
...for one fundamental reason...

...if gold were to fall below 300 again, then it would probably indicate the resumption of the gold bear. In other words, I believe such a downward move would prove psychologically devastating to gold longs and I would expect there would be huge capitulation, taking the metal down to 200 or less over a relatively short period of time. Since I fervently believe we are a gold bull...given the amazing strength of gold recently in the face of a spate of continuous daily negatives and Wall Street maneuvres attacking the metal...therefore I cannot foresee the scenario allowing for such a severe retraction.

On the other hand, I see increasing evidence of an imminent "BUY PANIC" developing just around the corner for both gold and silver.



(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:53 - ID#410194)
@farfel - The gold market

Do you still buy more when Gold goes down like lately? Do you still don't care and buy more? Any news about the promised Gold short squeeze?

Please let us know, thanks.

Date: Tue Mar 31 1998 19:30
farfel ( ) ID#340302:
Copyright  1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
...while I was down at the unemployment office, I got into a lengthy chat with all the fellas standing in line. Drunk as I was, I still managed to explain quite coherently my favorable opinions on gold as an investment asset.

By the time I finished, an amazing thing happened. All the guys were chanting...some weird, sing-song slogan...I think it went something like this...


Now, I can't predict what the cumulative purchasing power of some 30 unemployment cheques will have on the price of gold but every little bit counts, don't you think?



(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:54 - ID#212197)
@Nick & mozel: Moonwalk
Nick wrote:
"People talk!! My bs detector tells me that you could not keep the tens of thousands of people necessarily involved 'quiet'. We would have seen a plethora of 'tell all' books by 'disgruntled scientists,'overlooked for promotion' ladder climbers, and 'born-again-conscience' types."

Ibasically agrre with everything you wrote. To the "disgruntled scientists" I'd like to add on one very significant example. One of the leading scientists in Werher von Braun's team, I think his last name was Rudolph, received very "politically correct" treatment after he retired.
He was called a "Nazi-scientist" and lost his American pension. After a heart attack he escaped to his family in Hamburg. He never said anything about a fraud. Wouldn't he have had a good reason to so so?

My impression is that all these scientists were extremely engaged and honest people. They wanted to reach their goal. They devoted their lifes to this goal and never would have betrayed themselves through such a kind of fraud. They were people with honor, but the governments they worked for, that's a different story.

I appreciate all attempts to convince our friend mozel that in the case of the moonwalk he is too suspicious and the conclusions he draws are not scientifically founded. But to play through these arguments is nevertheless a kind of a pleasure.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 09:55 - ID#410194)
@farfel - The bond market
In the midst of a healthy correction from panicky record levels of around 135 ( !!! ) , bonds are still a full 10 points ( ! ) above levels of last March.

8 months ago, bonds were around 118.00.

People who invested in bonds around March and April of this year, have been part of one of the most amazing bull market of the board this year.

What are your friends thinking of this huge move Farfel?

Date: Tue Mar 03 1998 22:03

I warned many friends to avoid this Wall Street propagandistic fact, I went down on my knees with some of them and BEGGED THEM not to place any monies in bonds. I categorically predicted the current bearish scenario now unfolding in the bond market; it will only exacerbate as the TORRENT of newly printed money ( printed in the aftermath of the October crash in order to maintain liquidity ) begins to hammer bonds even further over the short-term..

Mike Stewart
(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:02 - ID#270253)
Technical Update
The Toronto Mining Issue McClellan Summation Index is still rising. The current level is +683. The false rally in April took the Summation Index close to +1000 and died. We are approaching a point where this market will have to prove itself. A move to +1900 would be very healthy.

The New Lows on Toronto Mining Issues have dried up to levels below the benchmark 5 issues or less per day. This occurred in 8 of the last 10 days, with the other days coming in with 6 new lows. This is good news.

The trendline that rises at 2% weekly from the last major low is at 4761 this week ( Toronto Gold Index ^TGL on Yahoo ) . This has provided a good stop loss level in the past.

The 220 day MA for gold is at 294.10, and the 200 day MA for the Toronto gold index is at 6301. We are on the good side of both of these.There is a gap on the weekly candlestick charts at 6560 which should be filled.

So far, so good...but with the first test right here.

Mike Stewart
(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:06 - ID#270253)
Technical Update
The Toronto Mining Issue McClellan Summation Index is still rising. The current level is +683. The false rally in April took the Summation Index close to +1000 and died. We are approaching a point where this market will have to prove itself. A move to +1900 would be very healthy.

The New Lows on Toronto Mining Issues have dried up to levels below the benchmark 5 issues or less per day. This occurred in 8 of the last 10 days, with the other days coming in with 6 new lows. This is good news.

The trendline that rises at 2% weekly from the last major low is at 4761 this week ( Toronto Gold Index ^TGL on Yahoo ) . This has provided a good stop loss level in the past.

The 220 day MA for gold is at 294.10, and the 200 day MA for the Toronto gold index is at 6301. We are on the good side of both of these.There is a gap on the weekly candlestick charts at 6560 which should be filled.

So far, so good...but with the first test right here.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:12 - ID#410194)
@farfel - meaning of "bullish" ***new***
Can you explain to us what do you mean by "extremely bullish" and "definitely in a new paradigm"?

No I'm just asking for these very important clarifications because when you made such statements last April 16th, Gold dived close to $30 ( !! ) in the following weeks.

Thanks for your time.

Date: Thu Apr 16 1998 14:54
farfel ( F*'s Evaluation of the GOLD market... ) ID#340302:
Copyright  1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

GOLD is looking EXTREMELY BULLISH. We are definitely in a NEW GOLD PARADIGM and that was confirmed finally today. Gold moved upward slightly in the face of a very strong dollar and weak mark and yen.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:15 - ID#284255)
Crystal Ball
It's as Nick@Canabeera says.
I don't know the meaning.??? ( :- ) ) )

Besides I like to sit on the fence.
I'll deliver the post.
But I sure don't write it.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:21 - ID#284255)
Conference to focus on global impact of Y2K bug

"There's no question that this is a global problem, and sometimes we Americans lose sight of that,"

  The conference is the first of a series that will examine the millennium bug's potential impact on the world's economic and political stability. Specifically, the task force will focus on trading systems, financial systems, security, infrastructure, and litigation.

Crystal Ball
(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:22 - ID#287410)
Dear Nick, I admire your defence of our good mate. I did not call HIM anti-Israel or racist. I just questioned his wisdom in posting an article that, to quote you, "just happened to contain some ill-advised statements about Zionism." If I have offended anyone, it was unintentional, and I apologize.

Crystal Ball
(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:25 - ID#287410)
Brother, if I have offended thee, I am sorry. Namaste'. CB

(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:42 - ID#147201)
Crystal Ball, & 2 Nick's
Thank goodness this has been resolved.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:50 - ID#210235)
Kitco's back!
It's terrific to be able to access this site again. My thanks to LL for the mirror site, which seems to be helping.

Milton Friedman offers an intelligent alternative to shutting capital flows in troubled countries, and to the IMF's reign of terror.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 10:50 - ID#208392)
Pension Funds Buying Gold As A Hedge
Attention Canada Pension Plan managers, please consider this instead of putting our money into stocks....

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:02 - ID#284255)
For those bored with MacDonalds?

Grab your favorite bottle of plonk and delve into some of these delights.

Where to now?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:03 - ID#411320)
washout of the dow on its way
Everyone have their puts on the indices in order? Do you have
physical gold? Mining stock? Good lets rock and roll.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:05 - ID#147201)
SDRer your 10/12 at 19:23
Regardless of the Jamaica Accords and the trade agreements with the European Union, which appear contardictory, there may come a time when there is a legitimate demand for an increase in the currency. How much increase would be determined- by the census or some relation to GDP? It appears that the Euro will have a unit of account with a specified measure of gold. Since it is a lot easier to issue paper than it is to have a substantial increase in gold production, how will this paradox be solved- one type of currency with a defined weight of gold in relation to a unit of account? Any comments welcomed, Charlie

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:06 - ID#25490)

Your Tue Oct 13 1998 09:22, standing shoulder to shoulder to our mate sharefin, brings to mind:

"A word fitly spoken, is like apples of gold, in pictures of silver."
Solomon in Proverbs 25:11

Now, what you Nicks doing up so late?

I'm off to bed. zz

Steve in TO
(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:15 - ID#209265)
Sharefin & Crystal Ball -
I agree with all that freedom of speech is important, especially for investors, and Nick should continue to post Spotlight articles if he thinks they have important information. Some background might be in order, though. The Spotlight is published by Mark Koernicke, a neo-Nazi who has been trying to move his organization into the mainstream. This is why the focus on 'Zionist Financiers' etc.- like something out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

What Koernicke does is take important world events, like the chaos introduced into Russia by stupid Harvard academics led by Al Gore, and adds in a neo-Nazi interpretation.

It is very true that Al Gore and his group of 'educated idiots' from Harvard are despised in Russia for the damage they've done- and if Al Gore succeeds Bill Clinton to the presidency the Russians will likely have nothing to do with him.

The Zionist stuff in the article is confabulation.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:17 - ID#350194)
Kitco Slowdown
For those who haven't the time to download all early mornings posts here is a reprint of the reasons for the current Kitco slowdown. ( Compiled by, and our thanks to, our own Aurator. )
Date: Tue Oct 13 1998 01:28
aurator ( It's a conspiracy ) ID#25490:
Copyright  1998 aurator/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
after casting the bones ( dem bones ) I now understand that the Great Kitco Slowdown
is a foul and dastardly PLOT by:

a ) Dr Mahatir of Malaysia to control all news about anything
b ) Michel Camdessus ( whispered sotto voce so as not to upset tolerant1 )
c ) MC's Dog who acts independently of his master
d ) Glintin clintin and his talking cigar
e ) Andy Smith
f ) Peter Munk
g ) Gartman of the Gartman Letter
h ) Guzzman with nightmare of helicopters
i ) The illuminati looking for Adam Weishaupt
j ) The Federal Reserve just because we know of the greenback farce
k ) A smattering of scions of Rothschild who'd never miss a conspiracy
l ) A Greenspan who used to post but was 404'ed
m ) NASA cos Mozel is closer to the truth than is comfortable
n ) The IMF who want to charge for allowing Bart to provide this free
o ) Hashimoto san who really is selling Tbonds
p ) The PPT ( too late boys, the cat's out of the bag )
q ) the NWO who want a new acronym
r ) Wall St Brokerages upset at losing a king's ransom this month
s ) 19 Japanese Banks upset losing a king's ransom every day for a year
t ) 4 2
u ) The Rosswell cover-up squad who can't find any silvermen here
v ) Ned Ludd, still pissed at the cotton jenny
w ) Vronsky ( where is dat boy? )
x ) ANOTHER for not getting paid for THOUGHTS here
y ) Not?
z ) the 26th letter of the alpabet: omega,it's all over: 00/00/00

Acting individually or in concert to thwart the continuing growth of the independent
minds at kitco.



(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:18 - ID#284255)
Where'd the moola come from?

Equity outflows 2.066 billion
Money Market inflows 26.8 billion

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:31 - ID#316256)
I've been giving the Y2K issue some thought lately, and I'm wondering if the Y2K scenario couldn't become a victim of thesis, anti-thesis,and then synthesis. No one is really sure what the consequences of the Y2K bug will be. Thus some rogue intelligence agencies may desire to create their own consequences that could lead to their desired synthesis. Few would be able to distinguish between true Y2K events and staged Y2K events. For example, a power company may actually be able to fix its Y2K problem, but the rogue agency sabatoges the power January 1st, 2000. Then the media is utilized to show those folks who continue to enjoy power with generators, wind generators, solar power etc. and make the argument that those that have this capability need to register and be licensed so that in the next emergency their resources can be shared with the less fortunate.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:31 - ID#187109)
TeddO MOON walking.....
spoke to TeddO this weekend. His life is hell but he is working through it. He has the basement finished and now he is starting on the framing. It has been raining non-stop for three or four days so he has been couped up with satellite dish and wife.......and a few select brownies...........yum yum. He says hi to all. And has sold ALL his DRIPS........................N-O-T!!

I also relayed this whole moon walk fraud thingy to him. He started laughing..........only because he was up there last week building ANOTHER log cabin. He says Swans Island isn't remote enough for him. Somedays, he says, it gets sooooo cold up there ( on the moon ) that he has to put his shirt on to work. He gets terrible sunburns if he doesn't use the proper sun block. And the food sucks. Ya gotta suck everything through a toothpaste tube. And when he opens his THERMOS all his coffee flies out the top...........a real bummer. And forget about growing any 'tomatoes' up there.............the soil ain't too good......and he can't get his coleman stove to work half the time so he can't thaw any ice cap water that exista up there.................and the cheese is terrible.........too green or something. But overall he says its good. He has great sunrises to look forward to. And no Big Fat Bretoners cashing welfare checks......... ( grin ) ...........just tiny little men with big heads and fancy pistols.

more later from TeddO.........go gold. the moon

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:33 - ID#119358)
@I hear 'dat train a comin'............
'bout time for a leeeeeetle turnaround in da' POG...afterall turnaround is fairplay ( my middle name ) .'.on.da'.balls.of.a.shortman.and.wonderin'.what..all.the.screamin's.'bout.

silver plate
(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:40 - ID#234253)
Spotlight - to all
I have been aware of the Spotlight for many years. It is a rag on the par with the Inquirer. It is not worth reading or posting. It contains badly slanted and with half- truths. Not anywhere near the quality that this site requires.

EZ Believer
(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:40 - ID#173262)
Steve on TO Who says Mark Koernike is a neo-Nazi?
Sounds like you are a victim of Southern Poverty law Center Propagada.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:41 - ID#147201)
LSteve Y2K
You've got a point. The have-nots are always looking for a way to get what the Haves have.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:42 - ID#421269)
Hey Studio

Where is oil gonna be middle 99 ?

Steve in TO
(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:42 - ID#209265)
Speaking of Russia & Israel -
A dangerous new trend is developing. Regional alliances are starting to indicate that nations in and around the Middle East feel threatened. We could see some bad news developing in the region if this continues.

Not much is on paper- yet. Israeli advisors have been meeting with their Turkish counterparts, and Military trainers have been providing advice to their Turkish counterparts on how to combat the Syrians. Turkey has been formenting a crisis with Syria over the Kurdish issue. Turkey has also been allying itself with Iran, presumably because of mutual concern over the Iraqi question, and this probably explains the strange visits of Israeli advisors to Iran several months ago. Surely these three fundamentally different nations make strange bedfellows, the only thing they have in common is that they are non-Arab nations facing threats from two rogue Arab states.

Another axis is forming in response, this time among countries that feel threatened by Turkey. Syria, Greece, Cyprus and Russia are cooperating on defense issues, and Greece and Russia are probing Turkey on the Cyprus issue by placing antiaircraft missles on the island that will change the balance of power in the region.

Reify- If you come across this post, let me say I admire someone who's willing to stand his ground in a place where stuff like this starts to happen. Just keep the 11th Psalm in mind if all these people start calling each others' bluffs and the bullets & rockets start to fly.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:45 - ID#424231)
spz good day for floor traders and scalpers-zzzzzzz!
need low risk trades

(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:47 - ID#333123)
@The Skeptical Investor
All: in case this hasn't been posted yet " Less than a month after the rescue of Long-Term
Capital Management LP, another high-risk hedge fund, Ellington
Capital Management, has begun selling hundreds of millions of
dollars of mortgage-related securities."


(Tue Oct 13 1998 11:49 - ID#26467)
FWIW Ideal short coming up when not climbing 77 and Plat
fails to widen the spread.
Main market weak until expiration, a nice bear market retrace
after.Still bearish on the oils until next month

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:05 - ID#119358)
@Isure...Of what?
oil=twenty.'merkan.buckaroos@6/99. yes, uhHuH....and you and me is goin' fishin' while them pumps ( silent soldiers ) do their thang. salud!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:10 - ID#402151)

An apology first. re my post of 10/10/98 13.08 that gold would bottom monday at 396.7 ( dec ) ...the line I drew was too fuzzy and the 396.6 low of yesterday was within parameter. Shall try to be a little fuzzier in my predictions.

The fact that 396.6 held is good news. It confirms that a certain bullish chart formation I'm following is a good match. If 396.6 is taken out, forget it for this week.

An interesting chart to compare with current gold is the Jul1 thru Aug 19 of 1985 platinum. Using it as a guide, I see gold stopping in the 310 region briefly, then blowing off to the 330's to 340's for a good shorting opportunity. Another good comparison is gold and silver in the Spring of 1993.

Question. If there is such good physical demand for gold, why would anyone want to try and lease gold? If the leasers have no intention of selling, their excercise is merely speculative in the wrong direction. Who cares how low lease rates go unless the shortsellers actually take possession and sell physical gold to the buyers? Sooner or later the fundamentals catch up and always trump the technicals.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:36 - ID#288466)

Oopsie...better make all those prices -100.

( ;^ ) )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:42 - ID#413307)
@ jims: Silver Lease rates are down to 1.35% range, and this
is most definitely silver carry territory. Interest rates would have
to drop about 1.75% to turn off the carry, ( or lease rates rise a
similar amount ) Silver one month leases of 1.35% indicate adequate
to good liquidity in the market, so spot POS should not rise soon.

But who out there has silver for loan at 1.35%? Low lease rates
suggest excellent silver supplies, and we know this is not true.
With 73 million oz as the only visible stockpile, and only about
half of that truly available, the world is not awash in silver.
The total available supplies left are equal to only one quarter of
the Buffett purchase. Let us hope the price stays down for a
while so some of this stuff can disappear.

The above post is in lieu of a post made this morning to correct an
overly generous silver lease figure ( old data ) . Before I could repost,
Kitco jammed up, and I had to go to work. Stuff happens. Hope no
body spent a million based on a lease figure that was 1% too high!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:44 - ID#266105)
wanniski-- $325 gold or bust

(Tue Oct 13 1998 12:45 - ID#410198)
Wholesale bid on MS63 Libs July 24th $ wholesale bid $750............some lead most just follow

Cage Rattler
(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:18 - ID#33184)
What made Art Bell quit ???
You may recall about a year ago... I told you that there was an event, a threatening terrible event occured to my family, which I could not tell you about. Because of that event, and a succession of other events, what you're listening to right now, is my final broadcast on the air. This is it folks, I'm going off the air and will not return. And what I will tell you now is what I told you then. When the time comes when I can tell you what occurred, I will tell you, through the press, through the media, of one sort or the other. I will explain to you the entire thing, it's not that I want to hold anything back from my audience, however, for the protection of my family, until it is otherwise revealed, I can't discuss it, I won't discuss it. And if you were in my position, you would do exactly the same thing. And when you finally hear whatever it is, what it is, whenever you hear it, I think you will then understand.

At any rate, I wanted to tell you, I didn't want to go without saying a word, so I'm telling you now. What you are listening to, is MY FINAL BROADCAST. It's been a good run, and you've been a great audience, and it's been an absolutely incredible forum. And my presumption is, that the forum will continue. At any rate, it certainly is my hope, that the forum will continue.

And again when the time comes, when this information can be released, you can be sure that I will release it, and I would assume because of the magnitude of the forum that I have held, at that time, you'll get the whole story. But the time will come when I will tell it.

So for now and the foreseeable future, that's it! That is the end of this man's broadcast career. So, thank you, and goodbye...

( Art Bell, 2:55 AM, Oct 13, 1998 )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:39 - ID#410194)
@farfel - IMPORTANT ***new***
Farfel, you stated on April 17th that is was definitely not a good time to be long Bonds and short Gold.

Do you realize that the exact opposite produced huge profits?

Can you share with us how do you make such forecasts? What do you base your predictions on?

Thanks for your time.

ON APRIL 17th......Bonds were at 121, then skyrocketed to as high as 135 in the following months, today bonds are at 127-128!!!!

ON APRIL 17th......Gold was at 310, then plunged to as low as 275 in the following months, today Gold is at 296-297!!!!

Date: Fri Apr 17 1998 13:31
farfel ( The Hashimoto's just around the bend, yes? ) ID#340302:
Copyright  1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Oh, does appear Mr. Hashimoto is mad...and he ain't gonna take it any longer. WHOA!!!! WHOOOAAA!!!! WHHOAAAAA!!!

No, this is definitely not the time to be long treasuries and short gold.
Not at all.



(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:46 - ID#354172)

I still feel the xau is very pricey relative to the POG. The xau is up over 50% while POG is retreating/correcting. The Xau has run up so much it is due for a retracement. If gold hardly incresed in these uncertain times, then any confidence that people had in gold as a safe haven is now lost.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:47 - ID#373403)
New Jersey
I wonder how their leveredged equity holdings are doing......

(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:48 - ID#255226)
I've been having computer problems, keeps reasigning the drive letters to the wrong drive. I think I've got it figured out. No change in the mkt good for the rest of the week. Buy Dec Gold 292-290, Silver under 4.65 and the Grand Slam cheap out of the money puts for Oct expiring at Friday's close.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 13:58 - ID#348127)
@cage rattler

My first inclination is to say that some power faction knew Art had answers and was leading his audience down the road to significant truths. It just doesnt make sense that an individual could force the radio god out of business. My feeeling is that we may never know due to the disruptions that seem to be looming in the not so distant future. Oh yea go gold

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:04 - ID#254159)
Steve in TO-Spotlight
I'am not aware of a Mark Koernicke being the publisher of the Spotlight. Could you please enlighten me.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:04 - ID#26793)
Hedge fund forced to sell $1 billion in bonds

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:10 - ID#410198)
Adrian...Mark is a janitor.... Spotlite is published by the Liberty Lobby

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:17 - ID#246224)
When you get lemons, make lemonaide.
When you hit an iceburg, make ice cream? Doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:24 - ID#280215)
Art Bell
As always with Art Bell, it's always something dramatic. I'm sure we'll find out it's a huge publicity stunt.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:28 - ID#246224)
Art Bell
Threats to his and his family's welfare. Typical intimidation. "They" probably found out that one of theirs ( or more ) has been singing to him and has taken care of the offender ( s ) and now is eliminating the outlet. Dead pets in the house after everyone is out for the evening and returns? Its been done before.

My only concern for Art is that he end up "committing suicide", like alot of folks we have heard about recently ( Clinton list ) . This country seems to have become just another banana republic. Fortunately the rot will be burned away in the coming destruction.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:30 - ID#246224)
Or then again..
he may be a fruad trying to beat town before things are uncovered. Ya never know these days, do ya?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:55 - ID#254288)

With hints of banks cutting back on loans it may be wise to select those gold and silver producers with large cash reserves and zero long term debt, or at least with adequate cashflow to continue operations while paying their debts.

If banks do in fact cut back on credit world gold production is likely to fall considerably, this also applies to silver where the base metal prices have falling to the extent that new projects may be shelved. Another important consideration is that many new massive copper mines use the SX-EW process which is not condusive in extracting byproduct silver from the ore.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 14:56 - ID#350179)
Stillwater Mining States Intent for a 2 Million Share Offering

EZ Believer
(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:07 - ID#173262)
Steve in TO .... Can't find anything can you?

I'm not defending or promoting anyone, but it is a good idea to get your
facts straight before you post such derogatory information about someone. Mark Koernike is not a neo-Nazi nor does he endorse any
such group.

Propaganda and hate disinformation can come from some suprising
sources. Even those you think are watching out for your interests.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:32 - ID#333127)
Art B
I heard a little of his broadcast early this AM. He was just back from a trip to South Africa. I got the impression he did not feel safe in the big cities. H e got a fax suggesting he was a racist and was quite concerned over it,defending what he had said. I have always thought him fair and enjoyed some of his late nite talk. Last nite was not an interesting show, little UFO talk.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:35 - ID#333127)
Xau getting close to a buy, say around 71 now at 74

Gold Dancer
(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:40 - ID#430221)
over on the USA Gold.COM site, "friend of Another" has a most
interesting point:

As most of you know I have never taken the reported 8000 ton gold
short position as "literal". I have always felt that someting was going
on. Well, it appears that the leases were set up so that if the
gold could not be paid back, the loan would have to be paid back in
a hard currency. So the CB's of Europe, leased their gold expecting that
when the time came these loans would be paid back in the new EURO.

Afterall, that will be the only 'hard currency" around come next year.
So the central banks if effect had already been a step ahead of everyone.
They created a future demand for the EURO by the billions by leasing
gold out which was then sold and could never be repaid because so much
was leased.

The name of the game is get the EURO out there. When the gold price
moves and the shorts cannot cover they will have to go into the market
and buy the new EURO next year creating an exciting beginning for the
new currency don't you think? Friend thinks that sometime in the year
2000 the gold price could be driven to $6000 in terms of the $.

I think you can remove one zero and be closer: $600


Waiting till next year to purchase your gold positons will be to
give up a lot of leverage. Gold stocks are moving now. If Another is
right, then the market is right not wrong. Gold stocks are not going to
sell off much. And they haven't so far. I am holding till the fat lady
sings and then holding some more.

Exciting times next year, for sure.

Thanks, GD

(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:57 - ID#348295)

(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:58 - ID#335379)
Hello Gold Dancer: Hhmm.
If the Euroites are going to use the gold short/debt leveredge to catapult the EURO into exsistance don't you think they will also use the evil variable exchange rate scheem to keep the POG "relative" so as not to spark a run to gold after the EURO birth? Hhmmm.....

(Tue Oct 13 1998 15:58 - ID#269409)
@ Art Bell..... He had the Moon info.
The reason Art Bell was silenced, ....quite obviously,.... is that he's the ONLY one who has ALL the inside info. on the Moon Walk fraud. He was just about to reveal this massive conspiracy before the Govmint boyz in black got to him.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:00 - ID#348295)
NEM, not HEM. Regards.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:08 - ID#25490)

Would be obliged for info/URL on the SX-EW Process for extracting copper, esp as it relates to possible decrease in Ag by-production.

Anyone know why SWC is issuing 2m shares?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:09 - ID#26467)
FWIW Still long on banks,sold oex puts and flat,long on semiconductors as
they gave a buy signal.
XAU breaking down and is looking over a cliff,keeping Sgoly and Rangy,
and shorted ABX,and HM.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:11 - ID#423159)
a bell probably exposed as a spin weaver-
might be in the market next year for pm. s

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:12 - ID#25490)
Thanks! Answering my Q B4 I ask it! Some place,this kitco, huh?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:14 - ID#29048)
per the press release, SWC is issuing the shares to finance more projects.

Looks like my edgewise is working, I finally got a word in.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:16 - ID#433172)
Moon talk..not walk
Never went back did we. Makes a guy think, after all this time not a suggestion of going back. Hmm It was worth a whole lot of hype but not worth doing over. Would a thought we'd have a base there by now even riding firecrackers back and forth? I bet there's GOLD on the moon,spread a rumour, that will get'em goin.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:19 - ID#269409)
@ Mozel... Moon Walks and the FBI
Brother Mozel...When you're quite through implying that some of America's greatest hero's of the Apollo program,.... and all the ten of thousands of technical support folks who helped them achieve their goal.....are all liars, frauds, and dishonest phonies who have yet to be exposed..... could you please turn your attention to a more worthy cause.

Namely, Congressional reps. just passed the latest version of the "Intelligence Authority" bill, which has a nice little clause slipped in that summarily oblitirates many of our Fourth ammendment protections, not to mention the Bill of Rights.

In the past, the federal wiretap laws had very tightly controlled provisions and requirements before it could be invoked, and it's use was highly restricted.

In this latest version of the "Intelligence Authority" bill however, the FBI managed to cajole congress into allowing sweeping, heretofore never allowed broadening of agency wiretap authority, not just for the FBI but other agencies as well.

These broad new violations and destruction of our rights, allow them to violate our privacy virtually at will, for just about any good or not so good reason, at any time, and any place, using any means they deem desirable.

These provisions will include privacy violations of phone communications, private radio transmissions, cell phone communications, and even..yes....MODEM addition of course to allowing our homes and offices to be bugged.

This is grossly reprehensible and Congress ought to be ashamed. Clitton is certain to sign this bill, since he and his Democratic party lackeys truly love any Government destruction of individual rights, for the better good of us all. I'm appaled that Republicans allowed this through in their quest for the "tough law enforcement" title. Hypocrites!

While you're investigating this issue... please also check into the recent ressurection of the unconstitutional legislation deigned as an "Internet Communications deceny act" or whatever they call it this time...which will limit all web and net material to that which is suitable reading for 9 year old children or under. Thus of course excluding stuff like the "Starr" report.

Thank you for your attention to these matters.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:25 - ID#269409)
@ George...MOON....never went back?
George...we never wen't back? You better check again. Look at the whole history of the Apollo program. Each mission...One through Seventeen.

( Eighteen through twenty were cancelled due to funding issues ) .

We went back to the Moon several times. Remember the "Moon ROver?" At least us "gullible" sheep like types think we went back several do virtually every scientist and engineer on the planet who isn't locked up in a psych ward somewhere.

But then, you never can trust dem scientist types..all they ever care about is helping with Govmint coverups and stuff. Finding out the truth about our surroundings, and the great beyond, doesn't interest scientists at all.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:27 - ID#409404)
Hecla Mining
Has anybody heard anything regarding Hecla Mining ( NYSE: HL ) in the last few days? The stock has been under pressure even though gold and silver have been relatively static.


The RidgeRunner

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:38 - ID#252150)
Stopped out of my latest PDG short for a gain of 3.65CDN per share. Still think
XAU could go test 70 in next few days because of recent anemic performance despite weakening USD & financial turmoil. Using close stops & successfully supressing greed.

Do any Canadians out there know if the CDN mutual funds have the same Oct.30 year end for tax purposes as the U.S.?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 16:50 - ID#288186)
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Oct. 13

Gold 784,569 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 73,426,776 - 437,565 troy ounces
Copper 68,395 + 263 short tons

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:03 - ID#43349)
DOW -63
Today was indeed rather directionless, but watch out tomorrow. As you recall, last Thursday and Friday the Yen made the biggest rise against the dollar in twenty-five years. Now, THAT undoutedly put some fire in the hole. I am not sure how the Monday banking and bond market holiday affects the number of days required to meet a margin call, but....

Also another hedge fund was forced to sell over a billion dollars worth of bonds ( they did so Monday even though the bond market was closed, do I detect a note of desperation or is it just perpsiration? ) which contributed to the weakness we saw today.

There are also some indications an attempt to short down the precious metals markets a little before closing failed. This may be coupled with some strange price movements in some of the mining stocks.

Bonds looked particularly skittish shortly before the close.

Altogether a fine trader's day shaping up tomorrow. We'll have to watch and see if conditions change in the overnight markets.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:08 - ID#368244)
@ Gold Dancer
I can understand cheap gold to accumulate more gold, but to take any kind of paper makes no sense.

With gold @ 400 an oz.= 1 oz
With gold @ 270 an oz. $400 buys 1.48 oz

If paid in gold CB's would make almost 1/2 oz. more @270 than @ 400

To take paper would destoy one of the main reasons to keep gold cheap!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:12 - ID#269409)
@ Mozel, 03:13.....Gold/Moon connection
Brother Mozel...earlier today you said;

"The Moon Walk Fraud and the Gold Market have this in common. The same people have an interest in messing with your mind in both cases."

By this I guess you mean scientists, astronauts, and tens of thousands of engineers and technicians?

Brother Mozel, earlier today you also said;

"The response of individuals on this site when I asked for factual scientific explanation of how the heat phsyics and life support
problems were overcome to accomplish a moon voyage and moon walk evaluates for me and others the likely quality of their reasoning on gold market issues."

Hmmmmm, firstly let me thank you for the compliment. Looking at the investment performance of Gold over the past 20 years, thruogh the lens of objective honesty, and factual truth ( as opposed to fantasy ) does indeed match closely with an honest, factual, scientific, and evidentiary based look at the Apollo program.

However, lest those of us who challenge your "Moon views" take all the credit, let me remind you. Contrary to your assertion that everyone has an agenda that aligns perfectly with your preconcieved notions, I would venture a guess that most GoldBugs on this site, the vast majority in fact...perhaps 90% or more....with a vast diversity of opinions on all things Gold and economic related....believe that the Moon Walks, did INDEED take place.

Fantasy can only take us so far.

By the way... Occam's neck is safe. His razor can still give a close shave. When I see Uri Geller bending spoons, psychics doing non invasive surgical removals of tumors, gypsy's calling up the dead, magicians making tigers disappear, and whacko alternative medicine types hyping miracle cures that scientists have disproven...

the very FIRST thought that leaps into my mind is "Trick or treat!"... namely...TRICK! To me that is readily apparent and the simplest explanation until extraordinary evidence proves otherwise.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:13 - ID#350194)
Cut It Out you cut-up you! I don't recall if I have ever complimented you before LGB but your sarcasm ( ? ) this time, has even me chuckling. :- ) ) Har De Har Har!!!!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:17 - ID#227290)
Gold is for wimps.
I think I'm gonna sell all my gold options and put my money where the REAL action is... ORANGE JUICE!! Hey, it worked in Trading Places didn't it? = )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:35 - ID#434226)
James...the last dates in Canada for selling to effect 1998 capital gains
gains or losses are Dec 24 for Cdn.Securities and Dec 28 for U.S

(Tue Oct 13 1998 17:37 - ID#373403)
Whoaaa....There were 1,000,000 shares traded? An 800,000 share block near the end of the day? I wonder who bought all that on a moments notice.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:01 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 26.79. The 233 day moving average is 28.67

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:04 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .248. The 233 day moving average is .247

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:11 - ID#252150)
Mozel@Have you entered a Monastery, commune or joined the Elks.
I notice that you have been addressed as Brother frequently as of late. Congratulations for putting on all the brilliant scientific/academic types on this forum with your moonwalk jive. As a layman with a spotty scientific background you did manage to tweak my curiosity. Then I thought back to the moonwalk when Armstrong {I think} hit the golf ball with his smuggled club. I got out my old tape & played it on my VCR. I can report with 100% certainty that that golf shot was actually hit on the moon. By measuring the speed of his golf swing, which was very short & slow because of his bulky space suit, & taking into account the gravitational differential between the moon & earth, that particular golf shot that would have travelled only 52 yds on earth travelled 1167 yds on the moon. If you do the math you will find that this corresponds exactly to the differential between earth & moon gravity.

Congratulations again for having so much fun with the great minds of Kitco.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:11 - ID#26793)
Fears that more hedge funds are waiting in line to unwind positions

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:14 - ID#280339)
Gold shorts pressuring Xau
Each of the last three trading days gold has been flat to up a little when the stock market opened. The large gold stocks like Nem and Abx immeadiately opened down. The small gold stocks held up better. Except for Friday afternoon gold ignored this pressure.

Very strange activity given the world financial chaos especially last week. Gold shorts need a chance to cover. Gold is flying off dealers shelves. So short the stocks to scare holders of gold. It won't work.

Buy GOLD!!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:16 - ID#43460)
Quoting Steve Kaplan
"Tanaka Kikinzoku Kogyo, a major Japanese bullion house, reported that gold bar sales in September 1998 rose 40% from August 1998 and 129% from September 1997. Platinum bar sales in September 1998 rose 29% from August 1998 and 128% from September 1997."

Speaks for itself IMHO

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:17 - ID#26793)
Economist Jeffery Sachs says Asian banks should be nationalized temporarily.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:22 - ID#153110)

I am waiting for proof from those who affirm the moon walk was genuine. You are very quick and glib with sarcasm and heckling. 245F. Perfectly insulating vacuum. Where's the beef ?

It is amusing to me that you and the other faithful in the Church of the Moon Walk desire to convert my inquiry into how the heat physics and life support problems were solved into a childish Nah Yah, Nah Yah Chorus. You put your faith in the testimony of astronauts and NASA bureaucrats. They were all government officers. On a mission. Is lying to accomplish a mission not allowed ? Since when ?

Is anyone informed as to whether or not, prior to the Berlin wall coming down, the Russians ever did EVA even in earth orbit ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:23 - ID#350179)
Brings back PF - TDSOTM, are we waning yet? Anyway...
Asian countries adopt economic plan

Neiss predicted the Asian crisis would bottom out in the first half of next year, and that the recovery would begin by the end of 1999.

( the end of 1999? Timing timing timing... )

Merrill Posts Quarterly Loss, Cuts 3,400 Jobs

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Merrill Lynch and Co. Inc., the largest U.S. brokerage, Tuesday reported its first quarterly loss in almost nine years and said it will cut 3,400 jobs, or about 5 percent of its global work force, after being hurt by trading losses abroad and a slowdown across key businesses.

Merrill said it lost $164 million, or 42 cents a share, down from a profit of $502 million, or $1.24 a share, in the year-earlier quarter. The most recent period includes a one-time loss of $288 million for severance costs. Excluding that charge, Merrill earned $124 million, or 28 cents a share.

P.S. I'm no longer accepting cookies and loading is really fast.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:26 - ID#153110)
Did you also by chance see the movie 2001 ? Do you think the producers of that show could have faked the golf ball stunt if the plot called for it ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:28 - ID#252150)
Wimp Duesinbarf says we don't need a unified rate cut. All is well. I can sign
off & go for a beer knowing that the financial wizards have this little financial "glitch" well under control.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:30 - ID#350179)
I can categorically attest that
I did not walk on the moon or do EVA.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 18:44 - ID#252150)
Mozel@Although you have a great intellect & are gifted in many fields, I'm afraid
that your lack of 3rd year University physics has exposed you. As Bugal will no doubt attest, it is a simple matter with our new sophisticated digital VCRs to precisely measure the speed with which that golf ball left the clubface. It works out to 379.7 miles per hour, which is the exact speed that we would expect on the moon. There is no possible way that they could have achieved that exact speed, given the rudimentary & primitive special effects available in 1969.

Off to the pub to toast your quircky, eccentric sense of humour.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:00 - ID#286230)
Back to earth
Now that the markets are closed--could some one post the list of YK2 sites that appears here from time to time.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:06 - ID#119358)
@EarlO...........what was that phrase you espoused.....
the other day......."squandering intellectual capital" or something like that....whatever it was, I think I know what you meant. Do you recall exactly what the phrase referenced? I do.
EarlO, you're cool.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:06 - ID#290456)
Princeton Economics update

Spot gold daily now in CRASH MODE??

Click on Global Market watch , then #4

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:14 - ID#153102)
@Golf Ball Stunt
Now, let me get this right. It is believeable that the technology existed for man to walk on the moon, but it is not believeable that the technology existed to fake this golf ball stunt on film ? Well, call me gullible, but I believe the technology to fake stuff on film existed. Cuz I've been to the movies.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:16 - ID#290456)
Selby @ Back to Earth

Try Sharefin's Y2K pages - that ought to keep you
out of trouble for hmmmmmm...a year or so.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:20 - ID#290172)
Date 13 Oct 1998-10-13 Tocom trader comments-

"Tocom today was a very good buyer whole day in gold. Looks like Tocom investors have decided the yen gold is cheap enough to buy. The buying pulled up the market in our time zone. I suppose this is a good sign.
Volume on Tocom 78,351 kg
Open 295.90
Hi 296.80
Low 295.50
Close 296.80

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:22 - ID#423313)
@James and Mozel
James, I'm afraid I have to side with mozel. According to the North Korean news agencies, they are by far the most technologically advanced nation on earth and they're still working on getting their "satellites" up and over Mt. Fuji.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:22 - ID#286230)

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:22 - ID#413307)
@ Silverbaron: forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Princeton
Martin Armstrong's bunch. They must be short every metal on
that list. I can't agree with a 'crash' scenario for gold.
I can see gold correcting back to 290, and the XAU correcting
even further.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:25 - ID#290456)

Yep - Armstrong's bunch. That was the reason for the ?? in my post. I don't see it either - maybe 290, 285 at the worst unless something really weird comes out of left field.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:25 - ID#220325)
Gollum and your 08:14 re Canada
Lucien Bouchard, head of the Parti Quebecoi announced today that a referendum will be held on Nov.30/98. The last time this happened the Canadian dollar crashed. If Quebec separates the Cdn $ will probably go down further still. The separatists do not want to take their per. capita share of the national debt with them.

Good trading

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:26 - ID#119358)
@Team KitcO............Bart,
one of these days, would it be possible for you to post a .jpg of our host, the Home Team of Kitco@Montreal? It would be nice to behold an image to which we may assign our gratitude...the actual human reality of KitcO. studio.salud! to YA!!!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:34 - ID#34883)
Milton Friedman quote:
From posted URL of Prometheus Oct 13 1998 10:50

"Many of those responsible for the East Asia crises have been unable to resist the temptation to blame
speculators for their problems. In fact, their policies gave speculators a nearly one-way bet, and by taking that
bet, the speculators conferred not harm but benefits. Would Thailand have benefited from being able to
continue its unsustainable policies longer?"

Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:35 - ID#348257)
silverbaron, XAU, flowers in the park...
...and other things. I haven't been able to get into Kitco for a while, but a couple of days ago Silverbaron posted a chart of the XAU that made a case for an inverse head and shoulders formed therein. Here is my comment ( FWIW ) :

that xau chart may be stretching things a bit claiming inverse head n' shoulders. Usually, the folklore on this is the first move up ( the breakout actually ) runs an equal distance rise above the neckline as was registered as decline below the neckline. In points this would put it at around 90 ( already just about registered and now reacting from that point ) . I'll accept for the moment that this is a "real" H&S ( a scrawny one at best ) and I'll go by the points, and look for a return move to the neckline at around 71 for a final shakeout.

Bottom line, if an H&S HAS formed in the XAU, then a return move to around 70-71 in the XAU can be possibly expected, and a rally from there. IMHO

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:37 - ID#34883)
"Many of those responsible for the East Asia crises have been unable to resist the temptation to blame speculators for their
problems. In fact, their policies gave speculators a nearly one-way bet, and by taking that bet, the speculators conferred not
harm but benefits. Would Thailand have benefited from being able to continue its unsustainable policies longer?"

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:39 - ID#376309)
McClellan Summation Index
Mike Stewart if you read this please e-mail me at
I was on vacation last week and need some info.



Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:39 - ID#348257)
You put your faith in the testimony of astronauts? There is only one place to put your faith, Brother LGB - and I think, your ascerbic nature aside, that you have found IT.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:40 - ID#253153)
The advance decline on the NYSE continuing to sink
The bear market has it's own schedule and will continue to clobber the short sellers and the equities long holders. The more governments attempt to reflate the bigger the collapse that will follow. This deflationary trend will run to exhaustion regardles of any attempts to reverse or stop it. All of us will be hurt. In a secular bear market such as now there are no winners only survivors. The shearing of the crowd has not yet begun. We are only in the very preliminary second phase of a bear market. As 1999 rolls in and the unemployment mounts worldwide, reality will descend and common sense will prevail again. The coming depression will be devastating and most of today's politicians will be thrown out of office
and replaced by new people. I recently returned from Indonesia where the unemployment is 30%. Four years ago I paid $150 US dollars per night in a fancy hotel in Jakarta. I my recent trip I paid $35 per night in the same hotel and had a wonderfull dinner for $10 vs 75$ four years ago. Times have changed and the deflationary train is heading our way.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:41 - ID#290456)
Mike Sheller

Interesting that you should mention the possibility of an inverse head and shoulders pattern in the XAU.....The Aden sisters newsletter ( current issue received today ) made the same observation.

Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:44 - ID#348257)
Damn Speculators...
It IS those damn speculators who have been roiling world markets and bringing the glowing plans of governments 'round the world to nought. Those damn speculators should be tagged and tattood, and given a mark on their foreheads, or something. Why can't we have some laws passed to identify and control those damn speculators so their actions do not interfere with the free market, and the wholesome plans of governments 'round the globe to make us all prosperous and happy. I say we take those damn speculators out and shoot them, or maybe burn them at the stake. They're about as useful to society as astrologers, I say. What gives THEM the right to buy and sell whatever they damn please? Regulate 'em, I say.


Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:47 - ID#348257)
I was only dealing with the chart you posted the other day that indicated an inverse H&s had formed. I admit you could make a case...albeit a scrawny one. But a case nonetheless. I feel I am good company with the Aden sisters. If it were not my 30th Aniiversary today, I might fantasize a bit about being in their company. ( ;- )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:47 - ID#34883)
Nothing new here for those at Kitco
Credit Crunch: It's How The Boom Busts When economies falter and uncertainty
reigns, lenders prefer safety of government debt to corporate borrowers
Date: 10/13/98
Author: Charles Oliver

Firms in Asia are starved for cash to expand or complete new projects, but
the well is dry. Now there are signs the U.S. may be facing the same

A Federal Reserve survey released two weeks ago found that bank lending
standards are getting tighter, and it warned of a possible credit crunch. On
Wednesday, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan said the U.S. isn't yet suffering
from a crunch - but he sounded worried.

So what is a credit crunch?

It's the lack of credit to credit-worthy borrowers. Banks won't lend under
almost any conditions. It's capital's equivalent of a drought.

''A credit crunch emerges whenever the real pool of funding begins to
shrink,'' said Frank Shostak, an economist with Ord Minnett Jardine Fleming
Futures in Sydney, Australia.

That sounds simple enough. But why does the pool of funding shrink? Because
lenders get scared. They'd rather buy risk-free government bills than lend
to businesses.

''A credit crunch is really just the rational response of lenders to
economic uncertainty and instability,'' said Yaron Brook, a finance
professor at Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, Calif.

And there's definitely much of both in the world now. The economic meltdowns
that started 15 months ago in Asia have spread to virtually every emerging
market on the planet. Now there are signs that that contagion has spread to
the U.S.

And, some analysts add, the Clinton mess makes a bad time even worse. The
risk that the government will be paralyzed by the grueling impeachment
process adds to the sense of uncertainty.

It's still too early to tell whether the U.S. is in for a credit crunch,
says Jeff Scott, an economist at Wells Fargo & Co. in San Francisco. But he
can understand why banks might be pulling back.

''Right now, there's lots of uncertainty about how much economic growth will
slow in the U.S., and there's some fear that the economic problems in Russia
and Asia will continue and might spread further,'' Scott said.

''In this atmosphere it's more difficult to price risk,'' Scott said.

Brook agrees.

''Some banks have already taken hits from Russia or from hedge funds. They
have concerns about companies that depend on foreign markets for a large
share of sales. They worry that profits will take a hit, and those firms may
not be able to repay loans. And they worry that consumers may not be able to
repay loans,'' Brook said.

So banks are tightening up, refusing to lend to marginal borrowers. But if
they tighten too much, a full-scale credit crunch could result.

Brook says that such grim events have been fairly rare in America.

''Probably the most well- known example occurred during the Great
Depression, when there were massive bank failures, and the money supply
collapsed,'' he said.

But we don't have to look into history to see what a credit crunch looks
like. We have only to look to Asia today.

''Several Asian nations - including Japan, South Korea and Malaysia - are in
the middle of credit crunches,'' said Charles Plosser, an economist at the
University of Rochester in New York.

When Asian nations started to devalue their currencies last year, some
thought it would trigger a flood of cheap exports to the U.S. That flood
never happened.

''There were several reasons why exports to the U.S. didn't surge. But one
key reason was that companies couldn't get financing. It either just wasn't
there, or it was available only at very high interest rates,'' said
Francisco Larios, chief emerging- markets economist at DRI/McGraw-Hill.

Those countries not only face sinking economies and widespread economic
uncertainty, they also have financial systems burdened by mountains of bad

Japanese banks, for instance, have at least $600 billion in bad loans on
their books.

''Most of the Japanese banks are bankrupt. They don't have the capital to
lend even if they wanted to,'' Plosser said.

''It's easy to say that uncertain economic conditions and a lot of bad loans
on the books of banks cause a credit crunch,'' said Paul Cwik, an economist
at Campbell University in Buies Creek, N.C.

''But you have to ask why those nations face economic instability, and you
have to ask why those banks have so many bad loans on their books,'' he

The root cause of a credit crunch, says Cwik, is a prior credit expansion.

''It's all rooted in inflation of the money supply. All of those Asian
nations that now have such serious problems saw a lot of government
tampering with the monetary system in recent years,'' he said.

When central banks inflate the money supply, they force down interest rates.
And that lets firms borrow for projects that would otherwise look
unprofitable, Cwik says.

''This creates an artificial boom. And those booms always come to an end,
either because the central bank raises interest rates to fight inflation or
because resources just get stretched too thin,'' he said.

When that happens, there's an economic downturn, and higher-risk borrowers
start to default on their loans. That's how banks find themselves saddled
with worthless paper.

Cwik notes with some concern the rapid money growth in the U.S. in recent

Central bankers often try to fight credit crunches by loosening the money su
pply. But that may be like pouring gasoline on a fire, say some economists.

''Lowering of interest rates will only make things much worse,'' Shostak

It would, he says, only prolong the inevitable, wasting more resources and
leaving banks with more bad loans on their books.

( C ) Copyright 1998 Investors Business Daily, Inc.
Metadata: E/IBD E/SN1 E/EUPD

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:48 - ID#34883)
Couldn't get a URL for that last one.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:48 - ID#423313)
"Damn speculators" continued...
Just further proof that we never made it to the moon. If we had, why do we still have politicians and "damn speculators." I mean, if we really had somewhere to send them...


(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:49 - ID#206235)
Mozel...Proof is in the pudding
Mozel, you said "I am waiting for proof from those who affirm the moon walk was genuine".

Come, come, Mozel. The evidence and proof lies in millions of documents, thousands of pictures, reams of film, pounds of Moon Rock, but most of all beyond all this, the direct TESTIMONY of tens of thousands of men of integrity and moral character. With ZERO evidence to the contrary of their testimony eh?

You're cyncicism re all things govt. related has colored your judgement
to the point where imperical reality has escaped you. The proof and evidence are overwhelming.... but it is all to no avail because you have now made the "Moon Walk Fraud" a "CB". ( Cherished belief )

Now that you have this "CB", there IS no evidence you would find convincing. If NASA scientists took you on a mission and personally escorted you on a Moon walk you'd say that they used hallicinogenic drugs to create a "virtual reality" experience in your mind.

It's a lost cause now due to "CB". . One might as well try and prove to you that planes aren't held up by skyhooks. ( The Naysayers of the day "proved" flight was impossible you know.......just too difficult for man to achieve..... )

Now quit pulling our leg and get on to something more serious Mozel.

Like explaining to us how someone was able to access Govt. documents recently via the "Freedom of Information Act" and expose yet another FBI stupidity. You know... the years long surveillance of Groucho Marx! ( Guess they thought he was a "Marxist....ahahahaha...OK, bad joke )

Anyway, how can a Government, so inept and incompetent as you consider them....a Govt. who seems incapable of preventing these constant embarrasing revelations of all kinds to come to light, via the Freedom of Information DID such a Govt. manage to co-opt the will, honesty, and integrity of the best and brightest Astronauts, pilots, scientists, engineers, technicians of all stripes, in the tens of thousands?

Explain this to me Mozel. A Govt. who couldn't even do a decent coverup of a bungled break-in. A Govt. who can't coverup a Monica B.J.

I'm baffled........ ( the one statement you'll agree with...hehehe )


(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:51 - ID#34883)
A New, New Deal

Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:55 - ID#348257)
you make a lot of sense.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 19:57 - ID#218223)
JP: It looks like they feel the last thing keeping confidence from turning into fear
is the CB's keeping the lid on the price of Gold! The conversations that I'm having with people lately is changing. The fragile state of the mindset of the American public is the only thing from keeping the markets from dropping like a stone. I think the jig is about UP!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:02 - ID#350194)
@snowbird @ 19:25
No doubt you are right that the majority of Separtists would LOVE to renege on their fair share of the debt. That is the whole point, isn't it?. Start with a clean slate, fresh, anew, with no baggage, or DEBT. Just like every other newly freed bancrupt who runs away from the fact that they have already spent the Gold and now must pay for the benefits that they have already received. Trouble is that the poor, downtrodden ( Yeah Right ) Quebecois really believe the Horsesh-it that their totally honest, ( Har De Har Har ) philanthropic ( Har De Har Har ) leaders feed them. They never really received benefits, programs, or edifices but were robbed blind by the rest of Canada and 'le mauvais Anglais'. Its amazing what the deluded mind will convince itself of.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:03 - ID#218223)
They know that if Gold starts to shoot up from here (it will anyway)
that the message of that happening will shake consumer confidence. Obviously, consumer confidence is critical to keeping this Global debacle over there, rather than here. It's why they are desperately trying to keep a lid on the price rise.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:05 - ID#119358)
@Mike O'Sheller.............should old acquaitance (not) be forgot................
Happy Thirtieth Anniversary, Mike!!! not "just" another of your great and golden accomplishments! studio.salud! to YA!!! ( gulp ) y ( puff )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:08 - ID#423313)
On a more serious note...
Hate to ask a stupid question ( I do it rather often! ) ...

But why would a serious rise in the POG create wholesale panic or destruction of the monetary system. Psychologically, most Americans are linked to the DJIA, even though they are clueless as to how narrow a measure it really is. They certainly have no concept of the bond or currency markets. And the gold market...oi veh!

I understand the possible war to destroy all potential of gold-pegged currencies in favor of monopoly money. But gold has gone higher and lower over the past 18 years without the dissolution of the fiat system.

I even understand that gold is acting rather bizarrely, as if it really did inhale from a rather potent leaf ( here's to ya studio and the tolerant one from the Isle that is Long ) . But what benefit does depressing the POG have for a central bank? Indeed, doesn't increasing the value of their reserves in a fractional reserve system allow them to expand the money supply?


Mike Sheller
(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:08 - ID#348257)
thank you studio. I hope for 30 more. She's gold!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:16 - ID#190411)
glenn's prediction,
Might not be so far off as you think.
I checked Pacific Exchange Rate Service, ( which is a treasure ) to find the gold/currency differences in the recent past.
The USD has declined in the period of 30 Sep-8 Oct by approximately
-3.7 in Deutsch Marks
-6.5 in Swiss Francs
-14.7 in Yen

-4.5% SFr
-1.86% DM
-14.3% Yen
+2.4% USD

The USD tanking obscures the relative POG in other currencies.
If you combine all this stuff, it seems that in Yen, POG is on the order of 251.00
Gold has not reacted well at all in the USD crash.

What was Disney's yen/gold constant? Why hasn't it worked here?
I doubted that it was anything more than an interesting coincidence.
I can see why gold sales are so brisk in Japan. How much would you buy at 251.00?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:20 - ID#34883)
Great Site, Thanks!
And then the paranoia set in... Passwords for the submit screen? alas.
Spy vs Spy :/ )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:21 - ID#350194)
@Mike Sheller
Mike - Congrats! Now if you want to see anymore you better take the Mooners advice and get your nose off this screen pronto! Go out and enjoy the company of that eighteen year old that you obviously married. 'Nuff Said'.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:27 - ID#119358)
@Imrahil.O.........leaves of golden confusion........
HuH? "yea, but I never exhaled it"

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:30 - ID#401460)
Another hedge fund in trouble!

10/13/98 -- 7:16 PM
Another hedge fund with a star manager runs into problems

Wall Street traders said the $1 billion fund run by former Kidder Peabody & Co. star bond trader Michael Vranos was back in the market for a second day selling millions of dollars in mortgage-related securities and derivatives.

``Basically it's a lousy market out there,'' said George Van, chairman of Van Hedge Fund Advisors International Inc. in Nashville, Tenn. ``They could have a problem with banks looking for more collateral. Banks could force them to the wall.''


(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:31 - ID#386245)
Mike Sheller
Congrats on your 30th anniversary. I beat you by 9 days!!
And they said it wouldn't last.
Off!! To look for NASA scientists living in OZ on their hush money.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:33 - ID#230244)
SNOWBIRD correction,
Bouchard annouced an election, not a referendum. Must win the election before announcing a referendum.Very tight race Liberals and PQ are even in last surveys. FYI

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:36 - ID#423313)
Por tu veracidad, votare por ti. Prefiero estar en contra con alguno en quien confio que estar junto con un mentiroso. GulpO y puffO para vos.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:36 - ID#218223)
Imarhil: situation; Your Joe sixpack who owns stocks.
Right now your confidence is in that $20 dollar bill in your wallet. You observe what is happening right now, and see that there is nothing else out there but that $20 dollar bill that has any real value. By keeping the price of gold down in the midst of all this turmoil, it keeps his confidence right where they ( CB ) want it on that $20. If on the other hand they ( CB ) can't keep the price depressed and it begins to soar while the global markets are collapsing, then he see's that there is something else out there that has REAL Value, other than the paper currency in his wallet. This makes the illusion of what is happening over there, very real. When the confidence in our currency ( Stk. Mkt., Banking, Personal Debt ) becomes as suspect as everyone ( Globally ) else's, Joe sixpack will reign in his spending, and his investing will change also. This, IMHO is not if it will happen but when? Maybe starting this week!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 20:47 - ID#423313)
But that's accepting the assumption that Joe Six-pack will make the connection between the rise in the POG and loss of value of his $20 bill. I think you're right that investment habits are about to change drastically. But...

I recently posted about a co-worker that was going to switch her portfolio to something more conservative ( she's 56 and 100% into the stock market, straight long-position in equities ) . Today she hear's the market bounced up yesterday and she says, I guess I'll keep my money where it's at.

Point is... I don't think Joe-Six-Pack makes the connection between POG and the value of the paper. And with the elitism one finds among CBs, I would be surprised if they thought Joe 6-pak got it.

Still wondering...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:00 - ID#153102)
@LGB @HOT HOT HOT 245F HOT. In a perfectly insulating vacuum.
As the resident rocketman, you must be finding it is getting hot on you to come up with some science to justify your irrational belief in movies.

Testimony from tens of thousands my ass. Look at that stupid plaque they supposedly left on the moon. Even it makes no testimonial statement. Just a mercator of earth, Apollo whatever number, the word Antares and signatures over names. Do you really expect me to believe people wouldn't lie to win the Cold War ?

Moon rocks, schmocks. Isn't the moon a piece of the earth for crying out loud ?

Mostly, NASA showed pictures and let you listen in on audio and draw your own conclusions.

What are you asking me to imagine, that old Dave, the air conditioner man, fixed them up for space ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:07 - ID#183109)
1000% RANGY gains within the next 2 years or so with gold staying at $300

Netscape causing my website lots of grief, but hopefully you netscape users can now view the majority of my RANDGOLD info Center.

1000% gains within the next two years if gold stays at 300? Take a look.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:13 - ID#401460)

NO, Microsoft is causing your site a lot of grief.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:14 - ID#263133)
Request of John Disney
Mr. Disney - In following this site for two years now, I have developed a certain respect for your insights and would ask for your consideration in providing further information as regards a post you made last evening in which you stated, in part, that the outlook for Platinum was very bearish and that a downside to $330 or even $300 was possible. I respect that opinion but wish to know what is happening that would drive the metal to such lows. I was lead to believe ( and consequently took a large long position in the metal ) that Platinum presented a double hedge to safety in that it was both an industrial metal and a precious metal. The fundamentals that had been touted to me said that demand exceeds supply in almost every past year, and in the projection of years far forward. However,the metal is not perfoming anywhere near "its potential". Why, even given the worldwide deflationary scenario, shouldn't we see Platinum at or near $400 oz.? The current strikes and unrest in South Africa, the potential that Russia has depleted any stockpiled reserves of the metal, the fact that Platinum is "used up" in its various industrial usages should all prove to be extreemely bullish. Why is it not, in your opinion, performing better? Have I missed something fundamnetal? Is your long term prognosis for the metal equally bleak? If Gold breaks out, shouldn't Platinum then follow. Thanx in advance for your response.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:15 - ID#218223)
Imrahil; I guess I meant to say that every investor globally is a joe sixpack
It's not so much that he will see that his $$$ are losing value, but rather that there is an alternative to the Buck. He's smart enough to see the connection, Markets dropping globally, gold going up,Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. But if they can keep the lid on the PM's then he keeps his faith right here in the almighty dollar.
Interesting question on the elliot wave international site. I posted the question and the answer by Peter Kendall, who is part of the Prechter E-Wave team. Being the Contrarian that I am, his point about those who think they are being contrary is comical, and what he says is true!
Can we have a crash when so many are expecting one? Esquire Cover: "What Did You Do After the Crash, Daddy?" Newsweek
Cover: "The Crash of 99." Business Week Cover: "Global Risk." --A.

Good question. But there are several things to keep in mind when evaluating the sentiment behind these cover stories.
First, you must realize the magazine cover indicator developed by Paul Montgomery allows for a several weeks of
continued decline after the appearance of a bearish story on the cover of a major newsweekly. So, technically, the
market can go much lower and not violate the indicator as it was initially described by Montgomery. It should also be
noted that the NY Times reports in its Sunday, Ocotber 11, 1998 edition that "Economic gloom and doom on
mass-market magazines covers is another good sign [that the worst is over]. When these folks discover a bull or bear
market, the trend is usually about to end." When a mass-market newspaper discovers that mass-market magazines are
contrary indicators, perhaps we have reached the limits of contrarianism. Actually, we started to press against these
limits months ago when stocks were rallying on the enactment ( and not just the announcement ) of stock splits.
Apparently, the flip side of a mania's ability to rise in the face of "the best of all possible" news, is that the ensuing panic
can unfold amidst widespread trepidation.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:20 - ID#238422)
That's all right, if a man got a sense of humor,
he does not need URL...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:24 - ID#350194)
Huh? What? TWO Old Dudes that I thought were cool swinging young bucks that just blew inta town? What's thirty anyhoo, Ruby?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:25 - ID#432136)
Real Estate

Anyone have any predictions for real estate in light of a falling stock market?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:29 - ID#316193)
NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT -- "And with the U.S. economy beginning
to slow, nervous Japanese investors may be thinking this is the
best time to bring their money home."

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:30 - ID#350194)
@bej and Mr. Disney
bej - Good questions! C'mon John - wake up, you've got an audience here that's all ears! I believe that your scenario was based on chart perceptions and that the downturn you project would be a quick, chart driven phenomena, but if there is a fundemental case, tell us, right now we're all from Missouri!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:33 - ID#423313)
So what you're saying is that joe6pak chases whatever is rising, leaving behind a collapsing bubble. For example--I'll sell my stocks for cash, drop my cash for gold, 'cuz gold gonna keep going up, like the early 80's.

That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time. A puffO and gulpO t'ya.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:42 - ID#386245)
G'day Mooney
Yair, mate. She's put up with me for 30 years. What a masochist. Complains now and then about my Kitco mistress. As long as I'm making money, things are cool. Decidedly frigid however if I'm not. I wonder if Kico assists with divorce settlememts??
Gold shares doing diddly squat in OZ today. Will someone please give gold a nudge in the 'correct' direction!! How can I trade if nothing moves??

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:43 - ID#218223)
Imrahil: Kinda, but more like from the other side.
The CB's don't want him to sell his stock, because then the market tanks, people get scared ( hell, I'm scared shitless!!!! ) and stop spending here in the USA, then we are no longer percieved from abroad as the great stabilizer in this whole global mess and things go south in a hurry. As if they aren't already. They ( CB's ) don't want gold to send that kind of message. It's Inevitable, IMHO.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:45 - ID#240241)
If I remember right, its you that has been trying to convince the rest
of us that your singular thinking is right. Why keep at it? You can
show no proof from scientists that what you say is true, you just expect
us to believe you. I'm no intellectual, but when everything I can read,
see & hear about the moon walk says it happened, & then one ( you ) person
says its all bullsh*t, then I think on this point, you are full of it.
By constantly harping on this, do you think you are going to convert
me to your beliefs? At first I thought you were kidding, then I started
laughing, when I finally realized you were serious, I felt sorry for you.
Apparently you have no where to go for help but here. You could start
a self-help group, but I guess that would be kinda hard since a group
consist of more then one.
( I realize I'm probably gonna get slammed for posting this, but, like
the Clinton crap from a few weeks ago, its time for this to stop also )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:47 - ID#386245)
...know a good online typing tutor?? My brain ( now there's an oxymoron for you ) must be faster than my fingers.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:48 - ID#401460)

Real Estate

Major negative balance changes in investment portfolios of institutions, busineses and indeviduals will cause many projects which are in the planning stage to stop.

If people are afraid for their jobs they are not going to buy homes.

Businesses that are loosing sales are not going to expand.

Churchsmay not build if there is not as much in the collection plte Sunday.

If the banks are concerned about the credit worthiness of the borrower they are not going to make as many loans for the purchase of real estate as before.

With all of the layoffs from the banks and brokerage houses in NY rents will drop again in NY.

And Platinum will drop as the demand for catylitic converters drops as people quit buying Automobiles.

Therefore less new car dealerships, parking lots, parking garages etc.

This has all happened before and it has begun again.


(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:55 - ID#350194)
I'm slightly biased being an 18 year full time Century 21 real estate salesperson in the greater Toronto area, however, I am honest and in 1990 I couldn't make a dime as I would not lie to people just to make a buck. At that time prices were dropping rapidly with no end in sight and while other real estate practioners were selling to sheeple and making money hand over foot I was advising all to sell as things were going to go a lot lower. One lady still exclaims to all who will listen, taht I had advised her to sell her home for $230,000, bank the money gain interest and rent for awhile. She didn't head my words and yet phoned me five years later when she had to sell for the then current market price of $160,000. Still she knows that I - AAR - tried to advise her properly and she recommends me to all comers.
At present in MY area I believe that with the low Canadian dollar, low interest rates and the fact that we have just come off of six year lows in prices, there is little, to no, risk in buying well priced property. I also believe that even in other cities where real estate is considered high there would be little risk in purchasing good quality multi-unit revenue producing property. Even in a recession people have to live somewhere and current low interest charges make carrying costs a joke. Last but not least, farmland is a screaming buy as long as the land is arable. People have to eat. Staples are at all time lows. Inflation, deflation, stagflation or whatever, well managed farm land is a can't lose situation right now as long as you buy with a substantial downpayment. Productive land looks as good a bet as Silver, Soybeans, Sugar, Wheat, Oats, Butter and ... well, you get the picture.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 21:57 - ID#401460)

Nikkei 225


(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:00 - ID#242325)
Although I do think you are too bearish, I must agree that the market internals are horrible. Most of the market has been badly smashed already save for a small group of blue chips.

This reminds me of 1973-75. Unlike many of you I lived through that super bear. Then just as now, the broad market collapsed early on, but a small group of blued chips held up relatively well until the very end. But they finally got shot and that marked the end of the bear.

I don't see why this hear will be different. It will perisit until the blue chips catch up with the broad market on the downside. Once people give up on the blue chips, the stage will be set for an explosive rally.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:19 - ID#401460)
Hong Kong
Hang Seng


(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:23 - ID#413273)
QUESTION...for all the smart guys....what gold product could you of bought on July 24 retail at $429

and sold wholesale today for $750 ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:25 - ID#413273)
QUESTION...for all the smart guys....what gold product could you of bought on July 24 retail at $555

and sold wholesale today for $750 ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:35 - ID#350194)
@HighRise, GeoGeoff and Nick@C (and that omnipotent lurker APH)
Well there you have it succinctly GG. Highrise and Mooney giving you some varied ( not really opposite, however ) real estate opinion.
Nick - You scoundrel! She must be all of that if she lets you talk like that!
On Men and Women From Reify's inexhausible files:
Diamonds are a girl's best friends.
Dogs are man's best friend.
So which is the dumber sex?
Single women complain that all good men are
married, while all married women complain about
their lousy husbands. This confirms that there is
no such thing as a good man.
Man to God: "God, why did you make woman so beautiful?"
God to Man: "So you would love her."
"But God", Man says, "why did you make her so dumb?"
God replies: "So she would love you."

God Bless the little children for having to put up with the likes of us. BTW Nick - If you really like to trade, you must know what to do when you have such enormous one month profits, No? G'Day. I'd better go spend some time with the little lady if I want to get as lucky as you and Mike!
;- ) Stop IT! You know what I meant folks - Thirty Years! Stop with that short term trading mentality! Think Rhody! ( Long Term ) .
Goodnight Glenn wherever you might be.
Reprise - APH - Are we still looking for the final blow-off in Silver? ( I don't mean to put the whole world on your shoulders - just an opinion will suffice! ) Thanks.
Goodnight Dick. Goodnight Steve.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:39 - ID#252391)
Gold going nowhere
This is rather intrequing to say the least. Spot gold sits at 296.50. Not a dollar higher not a dollar lower for 48hrs. dispite some wild swings in currencies and bonds and gold stocks.

What does this say. Somebody has to be under there doing quite a support job. There arn't any dips to be bought. Looks almost like a game of chicken - do the buyers back away who I bet represent large physical owners or do the Central Bankers and the Hedge Fund Cabals. Is this a wait and see situation regarding Kosovo - if it is I bet peace is declared but the troops don't come home.
Very interesting!!!!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:39 - ID#386245)
One of them round shiny St. thingies. How about G65??

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:39 - ID#350194)
@HighRise, GeoGeoff and Nick@C (and that omnipotent lurker APH)
Well there you have it succinctly GG. Highrise and Mooney giving you some varied ( not really opposite, however ) real estate opinion.
Nick - You scoundrel! She must be all of that if she lets you talk like that!
God Bless the little children for having to put up with the likes of us. BTW Nick - If you really like to trade, you must know what to do when you have such enormous one month profits, No? G'Day. I'd better go spend some time with the little lady if I want to get as lucky as you and Mike!
;- ) Stop IT! You know what I meant folks - Thirty Years! Stop with that short term trading mentality! Think Rhody! ( Long Term ) .
Goodnight Glenn wherever you might be.
Reprise - APH - Are we still looking for the final blow-off in Silver? ( I don't mean to put the whole world on your shoulders - just an opinion will suffice! ) Thanks.
Goodnight Dick. Goodnight Steve.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:46 - ID#202123)
The real world left and didn't turn out the lights.
Art Bell looks reasonalbe compared to me when it comes to the markets. In this market today, the more knowledgeable may be at a disadvantage.

This is true: The market goes up--- and the market goes down. But now we have a mass of people who have sunk their life into this market, so does the same true statemant still hold water. No! If this market is left to live its own life, then ours comes collapseing down. But if the forces that control it now, keep on interfering, it still collapses.

No, there is nothing real here. Art, move over. I am here.

If I dare say it, GO! GOLD!

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:51 - ID#350194)
Sorry Guys and Gals! I tried to be patient, but I guess it is getting us all once in a while.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 22:58 - ID#153110)
@Nick @credibility
You said that what I wrote about USG was slightly more credible than my questions about the genuineness of the moon walk.

Is it that my sources, the Supreme Court of the United States, the United States Code, and the Executive Orders of Presidents, are questionable that taints my credibility ?

FDR declared that USG was governing by war powers by necessity of emergency and Congress ratified it with a bill of indmenity by law. Is this not public record ? The Supreme Court has ruled that the war powers granted in the Constitution include by necessary implication everything needed to prepare for and wage war with or without declaration. USG has waged war in Korea and Vietnam and the Persian Gulf without a declaration of war. Is this not public record ? Are NSA and CIA and DIA not real ? Is the art of war not deception or, as Hobbes put it, fraud ?

Would you say that bombing the territory of another country is an act of war or making war ? Did you catch the news reports that USG bombed Sudan and Afghanistan using cruise missles ? What will it take to make this totally credible ? A cruise missile up your butt in Canberra ?

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:09 - ID#202123)
It is so slow here. Or maybe not - - - maybe something else
Glad there are oldies playing on the radio.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:11 - ID#284255)
Swing charts
Here's the regular one

And this one, all the way from London, created from the same dataset.

Seems like the swing low has not yet been taken out.

Watchout below. ( ;- ) ) )

Lan Man
(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:21 - ID#320108)
@Whats up robnoel
Rare coins are, thats what. Including the MS-64 Saints...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:21 - ID#202123)
What's going to happen to these unruly, snot head
kids, that manage these mutual funds, who have never smelled the puke breath of a pissed-off bear with large sharp teeth. They will s**t their pants and blow their wads.--- Then Joe 6pak will be doomed.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:37 - ID#284255)
Mike Sheller with the stars in his eyes
Cast your spell, and bind him
Lightly as you can
Weave your woman spells, and
Bind to you a man.

Take heed how you bind him
Be clever as you can
Never take too lightly
The measure of a man.

The everlasting partner
Hunting, questing he
Take care how you bind him,
Bind, but keep him free.

Surely she shall lose him
Who counts his manhood won
Her spell must bind him gently
Or all will be undone.

A warm and hearty congratulations.

Same to for you matey.
Seems that your good woman has woven the right spell ( :- ) ) )

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:44 - ID#43460)
pharmaceuticals, some deep background information:
With all this talk about the lunar landing hoax I got sidetracked and revisited other market sectors tonight. Here are a couple of web resources listing information about new pharmaceuticals. The first has a listing for newly approved drugs as well as those undergoing clinical trials. I like pharmaceuticals stocks as much as gold stocks but have to watch them for a long time before buying as their stocks go up and down drastically. I'm not buying any stocks right now, but these are huge blue chip companies, some with more resources than many nations in the world. ( Standard disclaimer applies. The writer is not a stock analyst. His investments are his and yours are yours! ) I recall there was discussion about medications containing precious metals some weeks ago. Reply to that will be for another night. Clinical drug trials listing service

This is a reference listing basic information about a number of drugs used in the treatment of mental illnesses. There is enough information here to get a start learning the names. Index for psychotropic medications

Here are the three companies making three of the four largest selling atypical neuroleptics in the US. The one made by Jannsen division of J&J has the largest market sector. I did not list Clozaril as it has gone off patent and has a generic substitute. Likewise Haldol decanoate has gone off patent so its price may be dropping and market share eroding.

JNJ A division of Johnson & Johnson Inc makes Risperdal brand Risperdone

LLY A division of Eli Lilly and Co makes Zyprexa brand Olanzapine
ZEN A division of Zeneca makes Seroquel brand Quetiapine

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:45 - ID#43460)
pharmaceuticals, some deep background information:
With all this talk about the lunar landing hoax I got sidetracked and revisited other market sectors tonight. Here are a couple of web resources listing information about new pharmaceuticals. The first has a listing for newly approved drugs as well as those undergoing clinical trials. I like pharmaceuticals stocks as much as gold stocks but have to watch them for a long time before buying as their stocks go up and down drastically. I'm not buying any stocks right now, but these are huge blue chip companies, some with more resources than many nations in the world. ( Standard disclaimer applies. The writer is not a stock analyst. His investments are his and yours are yours! ) I recall there was discussion about medications containing precious metals some weeks ago. Reply to that will be for another night.

This is a reference listing basic information about a number of drugs used in the treatment of mental illnesses. There is enough information here to get a start learning the names.

Here are the three companies making three of the four largest selling atypical neuroleptics in the US. The one made by Jannsen division of J&J has the largest market sector. I did not list Clozaril as it has gone off patent and has a generic substitute. Likewise Haldol decanoate has gone off patent so its price may be dropping and market share eroding.

JNJ A division of Johnson & Johnson Inc makes Risperdal brand Risperdone

LLY A division of Eli Lilly and Co makes Zyprexa brand Olanzapine
ZEN A division of Zeneca makes Seroquel brand Quetiapine

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:48 - ID#43349)

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:49 - ID#43349)

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:51 - ID#153110)
@Ruddy to Tripp: Talk While You Can @Congress isn't serious

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:52 - ID#290172)
#7 on the charts and climbing fast

"the liquidity trap clearly assumes that the demand to hold money is determined by the rate of interest, meaning that this demand should vary inversely with changes in the rate of interest. If this is so, what then determines the rate of interest?

Sir Dennis Robertson, a far shrewder economist than either Goodhart or Krugman, was keenly aware of this contradiction causing him to cleverly write:

"Thus the rate of interest is what it is because it is expected to become other than it is; if it is not expected to become other than it is, there is nothing left to tell us why it is what it is. The organ which secretes it has become amputated. And yet it somehow still exists a grin without a cat."

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:56 - ID#254288)

Merrill set to eliminate 3400 jobs, if these buggers are so darn bullish. I ask why?
What goes around comes around. Har, burn baby burn.

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:58 - ID#43349)
A billion here, a billion there...

(Tue Oct 13 1998 23:59 - ID#263254)
Mozel, holy mackeral, man...this discussion has been going on since, what, the 25th of September?
AND, you still haven't gotten your question answered. Plenty of flak, lots of rather good arguments about the pomposity of your stance against the bastion of our glorious 20th century feat, but still, no answer.

This topic of fraud is not a new one, not by a long shot. Rumors were flying far and wide in 1969.

Food for thought;

Other food for thought:

There was an appalling accident rate among the first group of Apollo astronauts.

"Test pilots have a hazardous occupation which probably sees as many fatalities per unit of time as do men in combat. However, before the first Apollo manned flight ever cleared the launching pad, eleven astronauts died in accidents. Grissom, Chaffee & White were cremated in a capsule test, seven died in 6 air crashes; Freeman, Basset and See, Rogers, Williams, Adams and Lawrence. Givens was killed in a car crash. There were 8 deaths in 1967 actuarial statistician would probably go berserk over these numbers considering how small the group was."

Flamers, refrain, and...just answer the question.