Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:01 - ID#43349)
The G-7 are, I think someone said, drawing the line in the sand with Brazil. Certainly their credibility is on the line. It looks to me like it will be a pretty good trick if they can pull it off.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:05 - ID#284255)
You sound like you're ready for a rumble.

I hope it's just another of his games.
All bluff with no content.

What's going to happen later on next year when they start to stockpile fuel?

I'd guess if you're playing on fear.
Then any position would want to stretch out till Dec'99.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:08 - ID#167133)
I did not say time does exist. But it is not as commonly percieved. The beat of an atom or a drum or a year is a function of a measurement of distance and energy applied.

Time exists. It is the shadow cast on the sand by the stick.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:10 - ID#284255)
What with all this money they were going to print for Y2k.
At the rate they're commiting money now
It's all going to be spent before we even get there.

I had thought that their printing presses were already going flat chat.

So where does this money actually come from?
Obviously it's being created but as what?
And from where?

Are they just crossing off the IOU's .

Talk about cooking the books.
With oh, so, much confidence.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:13 - ID#167133)
@ George
George, I missed the question you made to the cloud?

A religion to explain time? What do you need that for? You have me! ; )

( I hate emoticons, but I had to put that there. )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:22 - ID#167133)
@Gollum correction....
I did not say time does _not_ exist.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:24 - ID#43349)
I like that. Time, like the shadow, is not substance.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:31 - ID#350145)
Mole: interesting info
there are several people on the site that i generally read all their posts: and i always read yours. but i have to say they consist of the most esoteric knowledge i have ever read. i figure you must be a jesuit priest or working on your zen koan, or locked in some basement library. don't get me wrong, i always enjoy them, although i am generally wore out when finished. kind of like reading Dabchicks post on lend and lease rates. p.s. sorry you have to occassionally get confused with my political bent. mole

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:39 - ID#433172)
I don't remember the question or even if thier was one. Make sense? I doubt wether we can define time out of context so to speak. The atoms vibrating and all are examples of linear think. A lot of quantum?? whatever is challenging those concepts. A generalization which has stood the test of time with me is " Whatever is most paradoxical is most true" without the paradox test it's merely childish. Kindergarten.

Time obviously esists, but a paradox is involved.

Try the coin thing..I bet you can beat chance by a bunch.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:43 - ID#424394)
Thanks guys - I've passed your advice to he who sent it to me
and to the dozens of recipients in his cc list who got his "warning" It makes me look the fool. Sorry for my earlier post.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:47 - ID#43349)
Not only that, but where does it go?

Printing paper does not create money. Money is created when the Fed says, "We are giving you this money ( some amount filled in ) , you now owe us." The Fed marks it on their books as a credit and it is carried away as an obligation.

The one carrying it away may now pass it on to someone else in return for some good or service. That good or service might at some point be sold in return for more of the money, some of which mught be used to repay the Fed.

Repaying the Fed might also be done by collecting taxes to raise the funds.

The Fed never really gets repaid, of course, we are trillions of dollars in debt.

None of these transactions really require paper. Only marks in ledgers.

Some people though would rather feel the currency in their pocket. So paper IOU's need to be printed and passed out. As each IOU is passed out a mark in a ledger that says the bank owes this particular depositor some amount is marked off, or a mark is made in the ledger that says someone owes it to the bank.

In times of low credibility lots of paper needs to be printed. In tiems of great confidence not so much is needed.

The printing of it did not create any. It gets created by fiat. Out of thin air.

Some people have talked about the limitations of speed of printing presses as a limitation of how fast the Fed can create money. There is no such limitation.

They can create a trillion at one stroke of the pen. If you will take a check ( or an electronic transfer of funds ) , they can deliver it to you right away. If you must have currency, there will be a delay caused by the limitations of the printing presses in the delivery.

Money, you see, does not exist in the way we usually think of it. The paper is only used to measure it.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:50 - ID#43349)
It does not make you look the fool. It makes you look caring. You came across an item of concern and you passed it on.

Later you found it was not so, but that did not change your original intent.

Dave in CO
(Sun Nov 01 1998 00:58 - ID#229141)
Federal Reserve falls for overblown Y2K crap - strategist predicts discount rate at 2%

(Sun Nov 01 1998 01:03 - ID#43349)
Away again
To retire this time. Good night.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 01:04 - ID#277224)
I would certainly agree.It sure does not appear to be
probable without severely decimating the economy.Of
course there would be the resultant spillover into
neighboring economies.At the present there is this apparent
calm that seems to prevail.It hardly is warranted.Things could go to
hell rather quickly...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 01:05 - ID#424394)
Deleting anonymous spam & pulling Clintons' teeth
That "warning" came from local friends who should've known better - now they do thanks to you all. Anonymous spam I've learned to delete sight unseen but I was taken from a source I trusted. We are all still learning and likely will continue to do so all our lives. At least we are better than the cabbage heads graduating from American schools.

James, your 21:50 presents good reasons for the rest of the world to quarantine us. Maybe the Euro can put the US dollar its place. If not the Euro then maybe the Yen {if they pull together a pan-asian currency}.
We seem to have lost control of Clinton for the time being. We only hope that if he pulls anything extremely stupid and dangerous our military and will lock him in a closet and leave him to play with himself. Except that make Gre president. From the frying pan into the fire. We will regret that Dole did not get elected. Not that Dole was a great choice but that he would've been better than the child prince ( of darkness? ) .

(Sun Nov 01 1998 01:08 - ID#31868)
Grizz, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...stopped in the Kitco bar and grill for a moment
and I whole heartedly second Gollum's post you...yup...uh huh...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 01:10 - ID#167133)
@George I don't know about Au vs. Pt
but I can tell Coke from caffine free Coke from Pepsi from RC.........

Honestly, I don't think time has a religious element any more than...... ( ok Gollum- ) a triangle. It's just there. Why try to make it do something extraordinary?

You said Quantum ( as in Physics? ) . Ever read the Dancing Wu Li Masters ( Gary Zuhkov 1979 ) ? He describes the then budding metaphysical weirdness of the field.....You saw a bit of it surface if you read this:

Recently, I was discussing this sort of thing with a friend at work when he said "50 years ago you'd ask a physicist if he believes in God, he'd say 'Of course not, I'm a physicist', but today would say, 'Of course I do, I'm a physicist'."

I would say eventually all study of creation will eventually lead to it's Creator.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 03:06 - ID#433172)
Answers to your statements from last to first

" The study of the creation leads to the creator" -answer- Or as far away as we can get.

Metaphysicals- It would be nice and I hope some day we will see the light and be able to comphrehend this going on in theoretical terms. God seems to be a concept in witch context we are comfortable to be in ignorance of much.

We aren't looking for the extraordinary, understanding the ordinary better would be nice. God would be hard pressed if not the master of time. Yes?

The question comes as a result of the answer, you won't think of the right question otherwise. Sort of a hint.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 03:31 - ID#433172)
for bed.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 04:25 - ID#21275)
The mutual fund managers have whole hartely embraced
Mr. Greenspan's irrational exuberance in the belief that he can control the confidence of the world populaceIn the US Dollar, Bond, and Stock Market by manipulating the interest rates and money supply. This effort will fail just like all ponzi schemes. The masses are always looking for a material messiah to lead them to the promised land

(Sun Nov 01 1998 06:07 - ID#284255)
Oracle Y2K Compliance Questioned

Although version 10.7 of Oracle Applications is advertised as being year 2000 compliant, some users are finding it anything but.

John Disney
(Sun Nov 01 1998 07:17 - ID#24135)
.. just a family affair ..
for all ..
Now just suppose that Drudge should bring it out that
Vince WAS tapping Billiary and Willie got p!ssed and
had Vince whacked .. that same old Liberal 60 odd
percent would say that this was just a family
spat and Willie does too good a job to let him go.
and Billiary too..
and Barbara could write a song .. "People .. people who
kill people... " ... sixty odd percent of Mercans
would BUY IT.

Cage Rattler
(Sun Nov 01 1998 07:25 - ID#33182)
@sharefin - I see you finally discovered it !
Yes, on my travels regarding offshore asset protection I stumbled across the Baltic Banking Group some months ago - you would be suprised how many other offshore banks, etc. publish financial reports too ...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 08:24 - ID#30126)
John Disney
Your comment presumes that Willie has some sort of 'family' value system along with some level of self respect. I don't think so. I think that the bond between Evita and Bubba is the mutual adoration of power. Nothing else matters as evidenced by their behavior when that power is remotely threatened. Willies trysts along with Evita's trysts ( ? ) don't matter because it's a 'family matter'. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there have been many such lovers in both of their pasts. Anything that threatens their power is dismissed as a personal matter not worthy of public investigation, even when foreign nationals are involved and matters of national security are drawn in to the fray. After all, they are the 'finest' product of the 'sixties generation'. You remember those days, don't you? Free love, open marriages, and Timothy Leary ( of LSD fame ) .... Doesn't LSD distort the perception of reality?????

Well, the one poll that counts will start on Tuesday morning, November 3rd. Vote often and vote early..........:- ) )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 08:57 - ID#43349)
Does not compute

(Sun Nov 01 1998 08:59 - ID#367411)
@Panda re: Perception of Reality & LSD
Hi Panda!

"Doesn't LSD distort the perception of reality?????"

I'm not sure.....but are you convinced that you have the "100% complete, accurate and undistorted perception of reality" when not on LSD? If so, pls tell me about "the true nature of the universe"........

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,


(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:00 - ID#43349)
Selling Dollars to stock up on Euros?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:22 - ID#31868)
panda, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...Clintler and the First Bunt Cake are not simply
products of the sixties...they are shallow, ruthless more no less...indoctrinated by those who have nothing but vile contempt for everything America stands for...

I do not subscribe to the thinking that the sixties produced everything that is un-American...many of my friends and I are direct products of that time period known as the "60s" and we have nothing but disdain and contempt for the dirtbags getting a free ride in OUR White House...

The continual mix of various spheres of thought is exactly how dirtbags like the Clintlers come to entangling myriad conversations when trying to make a specific point the trappings are all neatly in place for the deceivers to perform their magic act...taking reality and remolding it into a lie and having it believed as the truth...

The fact remains that the Clintlers have lived more than half their lives in sheer and utter hypocrisy...specific-they go to church and spout the teachings contained in the Bible yet the truth of their actions repudiates each and every word they speak...bullshit is bullshit and does not change by switching microscopes...

Bring out the besomlift the carpetso that the truth can be hiddenthese are the words the Clintlers live by

(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:29 - ID#31868)
and so it goes...Y2K advice...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:31 - ID#284255)
Cage Rattler
Thanks, an excellent site.
These open directories are very good for browsing around in.
Got any others?

Just spent the last 10 hours cutting my site up and shifting urls around.
Plus added another few hundred urls amongst the pages.
Almost 3000 urls so far.

There is now a "Gold & Market Link" half way down the Master page.
This page is now devoted to this theme and will continue to grow.
Also I hope will be tidied up.


Oracle - Tandem and now:
The following products are "NOT Year 2000 ready and a fix is NOT planned. A resolution ( replacement, upgrade ) will NOT be provided" per our Year 2000 Status Definitions.


Snipped from the web.^o-o^
Response to Crouch/Echlin and Power Utilities - Is this being considered? Date: 1998-10-30

_Any_ IBM PC/AT based embedded systems will almost certainly cause
problems for _any_ application in which it is used. I have yet to
hear of any system involving more than 3 PCs that did not have to be
remediated. In other words if you have any moderately sophisticated
embedded system controlling or monitoring _any_ process that involves
more than 3 IBM PC/AT compatible boxes the chances are greater than
90% that the system will fail. Period.

Don't pay any heed to these people who say "no problem". I have found
that they fall into one of three broad catagories; they are either
just plain ignorant and like the sound of their own voice and spouting
off on the 'net, or they are not completely ignorant but in denial, or
, and the most dangerous class, they do understand the problem but
they are over specialised and do not recognise nor understand the
scope of the problem.

For a list of realtime clock chips that HAVE the Y2K bug and will NOT
be fixed check here:
and here:

These chips are used in hundreds of millions of IBM PC/AT compatible
embedded systems ( and hundreds of millions of IBM PC/AT compatible
desktop systems too ) . These chips are also used in hundreds of
millions of other embedded systems of which I know absolutely nothing.
I am an IBM PC/AT embedded systems expert ( But not overly specialised

Check here to see what an IBM PC/AT compatible embedded CPU board
looks like:
That board measures 3.5" x 3.25" you can put them everywhere, and
people do. Also notice what they say about Y2K ( hint: nothing ) .

Check here for an excellent page describing Y2K problems and embedded
( it also gives a pretty good feeling for the complexity of the issue )

Check here for a "short" list of industries and applications that use
embedded PCs:
and here:

As I have mentioned many times before there are dozens of embedded OS
manufacturers and dozens embedded hardware platforms for the IBM PC/AT
compatible market alone. There are also literaly hundreds, maybe
thousands of custom/in-house/proprietary embedded kernels and OS's

Something else to think about, once you've got your head wrapped
around this part of the story remind yourself that the embedded IBM
PC/AT compatible market is a small fraction of the overall embedded
systems market and hence a small part of the embedded systems Y2K

See my comments in the thread "Gartner Report ( 98-10-12 ) " in this
forum for more info.

Feel free to email me if you'd like further clarification on any of

Finally, don't let anyone tell that there is no problem with embedded
PCs. They simply do not know what they are talking about.

Andrew J. Edgar
Manager, Systems Software
Centigram Communications Corp.

Disclaimer: I speak only for myself and from my personal experience. I
do not speak as any kind of representative, nor spokesperson of my

(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:47 - ID#287279)
"Lenin was certainly right, there is no more surer,more subtler means of destroying the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, ( credit usage ) governments
can confiscate secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of the citizens. The process engages all of the hidden forces of economics on the side of destruction and does it in a manner that not one man in a million can diagnose. If governments should refrain from regulation ( taxation and other means ) the worthlessness of the money be-
comes apparent and the fraud upon the public can be concealed no longer." - John Maynard Keynes

(Sun Nov 01 1998 09:53 - ID#287279)
"Strictly speaking, it probably is not `necessary' for the federal
govvernment to tax anyone directly. It could simply print the money it needs. However, that would be too bold a stroke, for it would then be obvious to all what kind of counterfeiting operation the government is running The present system combining taxation and inflation is akin to watering the milk: too much water and the people catch on."
- Congressman, Ron Paul of Texas

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:02 - ID#287279)
"Our banking system works ONLY with credit" - Annonymous Fed Reserve Official

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:03 - ID#224230)
Your articulation of the way in which Clinton et al. use words mixed and spun in sophisticated ways - and the word Magic - really hits the spot. A statement of esoteric signigicance !

"Speech is literally a great magical force, and the adepts..., through knowledge of the forces and power of silence and of speech, can produce effects upon the physical plane....."

Clinton is a highly evolved man in limited respects with great skills in this area. Just watch him watching himself as he flawlessly energises ideas into words.

Almost every utterance is a little bit of prepared well modulated perfectly delivered oratory. He's ever more addicted to his own rhetorical skillset.

Now Hillary will put up with anything to be able to utilise such a powerful puppet -

His sexual dalliances are an effort to continually test the limits of what behaviour he can get away with - with her - so as to establish the true value of his skill - she sees it and believes in it - he is not sure of its real power or worth and needs to know.

This is a dangerous game to watch being played out anywhere near the Big Red Button.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:20 - ID#288231)

one of the reasons the crude one will not
see $10bbl......probably the facilitator
of $30+bbl.........

klinton has 1 year left.....within that
time frame...we shall see the moves of the

the charts show it now......

we should have seen lower prices with the glut....but,
this is not to be.....ALLABOARD........................
our availability---subsidized---to cheap oil is over.....
this is our achilles heel.....the tendon fully exposed......
the blade en-route to meet the bone..............................
make the cut....the west will barely be able to walk, much less run at
the head of the pack...and as to the pack.....the composition will
be quite different....those with the oil will controil--[hee.hee.hee]---
the conreollers..........quite a cyclic event...

and just around then corner....oil to the moon very soon....the tickets
are available at fire sale prices.......dec'99 me my
crude me.


(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:23 - ID#22157)
Sharefin, Baltic Banking Group - The Five Dimensions of Man, Sat 31-Oct-1998
This Sunday's Sermon:

The fact that the above appeared in our forum shows the exceptional quality of this site, we cannot thank Bart enough to make it possible and Sharefin to share his findings with us. One can interprete the Revelation in the New Testament in many ways, however when I consider Revelation Chapter 10, verse 5 to 7, after the sound of the sixth trumpet ...And the angel which I saw standing upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his right hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven ..., THAT THERE SHALL BE TIME NO LONGER: But in the days of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then is finished the mystery of God, according to the good tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets... I have always doubted that this meant the end of the physical world as taught by the mainstream religions. The above article makes sense to me when it describes time as a third dimension's consciousness limitation. Now, according to the Revelation, this limitation would cease to exist, however only for those who have survived the coming tribulations and thus have become masters of themselves but noone else, and servants of God. Maybe the people who will enjoy the coming Golden Age, having become masters of their own destiny through harsh lessons, will accept any leader only under the terms of "Primus Inter Pares" ( First among equals ) . I cannot imagine how else an honest, peaceful and creative society could exist.

I no longer follow any organized religion ( Ex-Catholic ) however I believe that we cannot simply disregard any of the ancient writings be it the Bible, Koran, Vedas etc, because we do not understand their meaning, for they all teach us something, we must however be on our guard as not to swallow without any question someoneelses interpretation.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:24 - ID#147201)
John Disney Tapping Billary
Excellent observation- it seems assured!!!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:35 - ID#284255)
Crouch/Echlin and Power Utilities

Gartner report

Both these treads are a good read. A must read.
Esp. Andrew Edgar's comments and links.

Then where else are those 286 chips?

Is Y2K A Conspiracy?

Y2K is happening because of bad technical management the worst of which is found in the U.S government

Few of these, however, manage to make it into important management positions because at that level it is virtually impossible to both prosper and maintain your principles. Sooner or later you find your boss or your competitor or your teammate is motivated by feathering their own nest instead of getting the job done the right way, i.e., for the benefit of the taxpayers.

The political debts that have to be incurred along the path to success are usually more than a principled individual can bear; consequently, most bite the dust before getting to the top. It's a corrupt system and it's very difficult to get to the top of hill without becoming corrupted yourself.

I've been there, I know how the system works, and my fears have been realized, in spades. As Pogo so wisely proclaimed,

"We have found the enemy and they are us."

Better get your G's before they're all gone. ^o-o^

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:40 - ID#34883)
Thanks, I needed that. Anyone whom reads F.A. Hayek's 'The Use of Knowledge in Society' is all right by me. This link follows the thread of that famous article:

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:43 - ID#147201)
Pookie@Aussi follow your road
I follow your bent- you don't need a preacher to reach God. The primary idea- don't take anyone else's interepretation. That's the key. Thanx, Charlie

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:44 - ID#147201)
Pookie @Aussi I forgot
Read NT- John 14:12

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:46 - ID#34883)
Hiyak/Quote of the Week

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:47 - ID#35757)
Give me a break. Clinton is a skilled POLITICIAN who by kissing the backsides of blacks, homosexuals and women ( in that order ) , enjoys their fanatical support. That, good looks and the Devil's luck keep him in power. His dishonesty and hypocricy are as transparent as air. I suppose we have to add James Carville ( the Democratic Lee Atwater ) to the list of his 'assets'.

Gianni Dioro
(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:55 - ID#384350)
Shek - Circulation of Currency
Right, there isn't inherently a need to tax. Money can be printed for spending. There should be a control on how easily a govt can print. Like you said printing money is inflationary as it inflates the money supply. Some light taxes could be used to tax the money back out of circulation.

The real problem is that when the govt spends money it doesn't print it itself, it has given exclusive license to a third party to print the currency, who in turn charges the govt interest on the paper that the govt could have very well printed itself.

The govt should issue it's own currency instead of subjecting itself to the usury of the ruling elite. Better yet currency should be gold and/or silver, with perhaps the govt minting it as a service to the people of the land.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 10:57 - ID#35757)
I will concede on world class talent. I venture to say that even the most decerning eye of his harshest critic has never detected the slightest trace of shame in the man. This yogic power is the subliminal version of 'The big lie'.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:00 - ID#432130)
What I think...
...Those who know me personally, and perhaps some of you folks here at Kitco recall that for the past two weeks I have been saying that the Fed, the G7 and the IMF ( otherwise known as "They" ) , would not allow "The Crash" to happen. Regardless of how hopeless it truly is. "They" need to make more money before "They" get out of the market just in time for the whole thing to implode, leaving poor "Joe Sixpack" & his 401k devastated.

We all know that everything is in place, in the entire world, for the impending implosion of the fiat monetary system. Its just that "They" have a bit more control over it than the "pundits" gave "Them" credit for. Hey, Im a Bear and I lost profits on this "Bull Rally". But its cool with me because I know "Their" rescue will be short lived.

The bottom line is that "They" will be able to hold the market together until next Spring when further "world market bad news", and the "Y2k reality SCARE" brings the market past the point of any return, and unavoidable worldwide CRASH. My point being though, "They" know all of this and "They" are getting ready for it just as we are getting ready for it. Its just that "They" have to play "Their little games" first before "They" can allow it all to go to "Hell in a handbasket".

I dont believe I am making a prediction. I truly believe I am speaking "Fact". ( Better people than I have been wrong though! )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:01 - ID#34883)
Ludwig von Meeces/Quote of the Week

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:06 - ID#317211)
TIME once again for my lithium & Prozac cocktail,
as I sit down to vote by mail in the California election. Tho Klinton's
can fool USA citizens with shrewd oratory, it's not necessary for the
socialist politicos here in the Golden state.
Feinstein, Boxer, Gray Davis, Maxine Waters, etc... they're all gonna
win again. Oh, I forgot Henry Waxman.... excuse me....

...back again. Had to vomit.
Saw an ad yesterday of Randy Cunningham ( conservative ) as a skeleton
man in the act of burying a pregnant woman alive because he doesn't
support 3rd tri-mester abortion. Hopefully the rest of amerika would
not swallow such base drivel, but I'm starting to have my doubts.

Have not missed an opportunity to vote since age 18, but am ready to
burn my ballot and pick up my shotgun.

WANTED: one large straight-jacket,white, to match my padded walls.
and one do-it-yourself frontal lobotomy kit.

Cage Rattler
(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:06 - ID#33182)
The Fine Art of Insider Dealing - Comic Relief

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:12 - ID#412286)
It appears that the Left and the Communists are big supporters of gold to support the ruble and "purge the economy of the dollar". Our Wall St boys and American liberals or left hate gold how do we reconcile. Russian Communists love gold American leftists ( Govt types like Clinton ) and Wall St hate gold.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:13 - ID#35757)
Yea, you are pretty luck in California. Imagine having to choose between Chuck Schumer and Al D'Amato.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:14 - ID#342397)
Sharefin @GenSets - Juice Page
Thanks very much for your link 10/31/00:02 re gen sets. Great info.


(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:15 - ID#277224)
I thank you profusely for the "gold and market link".This
will certainly serve one well.I must say that I am very
impressed at how prolific you continue to be on this site.
Frequently turns out to be a major help.However I cannot
imagine how you find the time.
Through the above gold and market site If one goes to golden eagle,
then in the hot news section and clicks on an article entitled
"Durban Delight",which expounds on the merits of Durban Deep.I would
be interested if you think this is for real or fall in the category
of stock promotion???

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:18 - ID#284255)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:31 - ID#31868)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:36 - ID#284255)
You're asking the wrong person.
I'm sure John Disney would provide far better analysis.

Yes, a very good webpage on generators.

There's a good collection of generator links at
Would have to be one of my favorites.
I can't understand why it's never taken off.
I'd like to make one up for the farm.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:53 - ID#31868)
spokesman for the sixties huh...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 11:54 - ID#219363)
Seriously think it's time for the next leg down in the equity markets. Reason is simple: It's as good at it's going to get. FED cut rates, G7 is coming together to save the overseas markets, GDP came through at 3.3, foreign markets have rallied a ways, Brazil to be saved by the IMF, mutual funds balanced out their portfolios by loading up on Friday, and it's the season for elections and replacing the old with the new. What more could a bull want or even hope to get, and still the market is in the mid to high 8000's. I just can't think of anything more the markets could want or ask for unless maybe the financials start declaring their loses in highly leveraged speculation and it turns out to not be that bad, or maybe some sudden strong signals that consumer confidence is going up, or surprises that show that foreign trade hasn't fallen off, or something else completely unexpected. Maybe we'll suddenly find out that, well, I don't know, I can't think of anything good enough to push the market very much higher. I guess maybe if the dollar were to rally back up 20 or 30 yen that might help load foreigners back into the market, but that's about it.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:07 - ID#31868)
The First Bunt Cake through different eyes...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:10 - ID#277224)
Re.Durban Delight article
Anyone care to give their IMHO in regard to the 11:15 posting???

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:16 - ID#290202)
incredible...I found the following this morning

The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters

of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making of many books

there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his

commandents: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing,

whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

( SOLOMON ) : Ecclesiastes 12: 11-14

( kind of brings things into perspective a bit...especially when fearful

of the things we ( Kitcodians ) see coming... ) J. Savage

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:19 - ID#31868)
doing the people's work...Hmmmmmm...which people...Hmmmmmmmmmm

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:27 - ID#219363)
Gold: It's role within the modern investment strategy
In this brief overview of financial history, one striking common theme arises from the trials and tribulations of man - gold rises not as a hedge against mere inflation, but as a hedge against the unsound practices of government and/or political uncertainty. Steady rising inflation does not act as an underlying support mechanism for gold. Its role within the modern investment strategy is a hedge against political and economic uncertainty. Gold has always risen the most when the confidence in the government is at its lowest!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:30 - ID#266105)
rangy says no more losses

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:35 - ID#31868)
Clintler convicting HIS own words people...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:50 - ID#266105)

Mole-- Hayek, always a deep, refreshing breath of
of reason and clarity.

mole-- careful, big Mole is a subversive.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:50 - ID#290456)
Carmack @ DROOY article

I think for the most part - Ray's perspective and
comments are true ( his gold production quantities
seem a little high, however ) . Here are some
additional links for your to check out. If you
want Blanchard's entire writeups on DRD, see the
Oct 97 and Sept 98 issues of Gold Newsletter,
available ( through subscription ) at

Here are some ticklers

and of course, there is DRD's website:

Voyeur Professor
(Sun Nov 01 1998 12:58 - ID#231112)
Hope springs eternal. . .
The following article appeared in the most recent edition of the newsletter, "Personal Finance," one of the largest, if not largest national financial advisories.

"Going for the Gold: Tumbling markets, unstable economies and the specter of inflation are a boon to gold"

By Mat Matsunaga

"Forget whether the weakened dollar, low interest rates or reflation will have any impact on global economies. One thing is for sure: Gold will head higher from here.

After languishing for the past yearand falling for nearly two and a half yearsits on the comeback trail.

Earlier this month, the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) considered selling its gold reserves to bolster its capital to bail out failing economies. At current prices, the IMFs stash would amount to $30 billion.

Reaching its March 1996 highs around $400 per ounce ( see graph ) isnt a pipe dream, although it may be a year away. But for gold producers that means hugh profits that make King Solomons treasure look like play money.

Yet the global financial crisis isnt the only thing thats keeping gold prices at bay. For the past year, gold has been pushed aside, along with other commodoties such as copper, oil, steel and lumber as worldwide demand slackened.

Only now that large countries are realizing the benefit of limited inflation, or reflation, the global growth mantra is being invoked in all industrialized nations,k which directly boosts natural resource exporters. And gold will be one of the first metals to rise from its reputation as the worlds best store of value."

Matsunaga goes on to recommend Newmont Mining ( "under $25 ) , Homestake Mining ( under $14 ) and Barrick Gold ( under $23 ) as the best buys.

It is interesting to me that despite the obvious return to celebrity by goldnumerous advisors, brokerages, and pundits have touted golds potential recentlythe yellow metal remains half dead up to the neck. Whether golds new appeal will translate into a transformed investor sympathy remains to be seen, certainly the ability of governments, hedge funds, short sellers, and central banks to manipulate gold prices has played a significant role in golds difficulties. But I still regard this current crisis a watershed moment for the future of gold. The decision by the Fed and other countries to lower interest ratesand indeed they are practically promising future cutsshould prove bullish for gold. If gold remains where it is, or is even lower, in the next six months to a year, we will all have the answer to the question we have frequently asked: if gold prices remain under $300 or are lower by next November, it would be quite evident that gold has died as a monetary vehicle. Given gold's record since August, I am not optimistic.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:00 - ID#339274)
To John Disney,
Plat will have to take out 360 in order to stay viable.
Duration of the initial rally ,if the rally holds,will be two
weeks,this will give gold the shot it needs.
If the dollar weakens versus the DM at the same time,the move will be
greater.All eyes on Monday.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:07 - ID#284255)
The Real Story Behind the Fed Ease

Contrary to what most would like to believe, the Federal Reserves abrupt decision to cut interest rates on Oct.15 was not so much due to concerns over a slowing economy or credit crunch. The action, which came 16 days after the first 0.25% rate cut, was outside the normal context of a Federal Open Market Committee meeting, which does not convene again until Nov. 17. It was a response to an immediate meltdown threat of the banking system.

According to informed sources, the Fed had been injecting liquidity into major banks even before the Oct. 15 ease. Federal Reserve repo tenders, which are repurchases of Treasury securities held by banks in return for short-term cash, a common way to add liquidity to the banking system, rose by 35% during the two weeks prior to the surprise rate-cut.

The Oct. 15 ease, on top of the recent surge in liquidity available to banks, reportedly came after urgent requests from the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, who told Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan of extraordinary demands by one member bank in its region.

Reliable sources indicate that this demand for repo funds had been provoked by a credit squeeze in the interbank market against Bank of America ( BAC:NYSE ) . Bankers believe that the bank's troubles are far more serious than what is being told to the public. Bank of America made a $357 million loss write-off due to its participation in the troubled hedge fund D.E. Shaw, and bought $20 billion in outstanding securities and derivatives contracts from that hedge fund in order to prevent its demise. The grave danger on Oct. 15 was of a breakdown in the interbank payments system, which could have easily led to a global systemic collapse.

While investors around the world rejoice the Feds action by outrageously bidding up stock prices, the more alarming message is that the emerging markets crisis has now fully reached the G7 financial systems.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:22 - ID#339274)
Interest rates
FWIW Long and short term interest rates are going up
The bonds gave a weekly, monthly and daily sell signal last Friday.
Buying puts in T-bonds,could be the biggest winner for the next couple
of months.
This development could become important to the US dollar,and to gold.

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:24 - ID#430221)
Does the Baltic Banking Group have a site? I really enjoyed their
article someone posted a couple of days ago.

Thanks GD

John Disney
(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:35 - ID#24135)
willie's family values
for panda ..
agree all points .. my assessment of willie getting
p!issed because of billarys waywardness would not
have been jealousy driven .. but he would have been
angry at the added risk associated with her liasons
and the possibility of being vulnerable to Vince
talking out of turn.. poor bugger never got the chance.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:38 - ID#339274)
FWIW The grains are in a early bull mode.Dec wheat ready to
break the 320,the chart and cycle patterns have given it a major
buy signal next week,to propel the Wheat/Corn spread over 100 at
expiration .This was the "money in the bank"campaign suggested in my
last July post when the spread was hovering around 45.
Any Corn options for July at the end of December will be big
winners dito for Soybeans.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:42 - ID#219363)
@Sharefin, Cyclist
That part in sharefin's post should cause concern for anyone betting on treasures, and I tend to agree with Cyclist that it might be a good short. The post in essense said that banks were dumping treasures on the FED, and the FED was buying to add liquidity to the banking system - why ? Because the banks need to cover on some things they've done wrong. It can't be because there is a sudden need for cash to stash away in reserves, that is, it can't be to increase the money supply, it has to be to cover someone's ass. That the FED ALSO lowered rates, especially at the discount window when Greenspan has been so worried about inflation, to me is screaming that there's a problem somewhere. So who owns Treasuries ? People do, banks do, and foreign folks do. Banks are dumping some to cover their bets, foreign folks just took a huge loss on treasures, not because the bond market fell off, but because the dollar did, especially against the Yen. That leaves the public, and they aren't going to hold on if the market is dropping, the prices have been inflated for a long time in the bond market. Summary: I'm thinking the market for treasures is about to turn as well, let's hope it stays liquid. The "sell America" light is on, please take your seats and fasten your safety belts. What'cha think ?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:42 - ID#266105)
Gold Dancer

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:46 - ID#147201)
Sharefin yourm13:07
As usual, you have got the point on the red-ass. Greenspan needs something more than Preparation H. All of this in the middle of the Euro "launch". Greenspan now doesn't know whether to excrete or go blind. His best option is to take off on a sabbatical. It's not a problem of money or interest rates or exchange rates. It is a problem of personalities and politics. When did anyone ever see a long term major problem solved by politics run by such a hellacious combination of personal glory and a greed for more cash???
From Brazil to Germany to Japan and Russia, everybody wants to be coach. How many coaches do you need to install a light bulb? Thanx for dome great perspective.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 13:49 - ID#432130)
Envy : About Sharefin's post...
Regarding your response to Sharefin's post; Im impressed. You really seem to know what you are talking about : )

The Hatt
(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:24 - ID#294232)
A Shoe is about to drop after the elections!
Watching the gold equities rally into a falling POG tells me that those in the know are ignoring the false selling pressure on gold. IMHO i believe that the US banking system is on its butt as Greenspan and Rubin scramble to cover up the mess. While the SEC investigate the internet promotion of micro-stocks one has to question who is investigating the weekly rumours on Bankers Trust, a takeover candidate, yeah sure! What about LTCM and the questions regarding insider trading????? How about the accuracy of quarterly profits being stated by the Financials? I have been an avid VSE player for many years and have had to listen to the likes of the TSE and Dow call us the scam capital of the world! Well let me go on the record as saying the only difference betwwen the VSE and the big boards is that the big boys are never investigated! The Dow is high closed on a regular basis, something that is routinely prosecuted on the VSE. Who investigates these regularly timed buy programs in the last fifteen minutes of trading. Oh yeah, just watch the buy programs come to life as the President speaks. What about the options game being played not only at the opening but also at the close? Traders on the floor regularly make comments regarding where they want to close the market! Recently a London bullion trader commented " I cannot understand what New York is doing to the gold market and why, it certainly appears to be manipulation". What about Greenspans latest move of reducing rates after the option markets were closed? Why is it CNBC never use five year charts to promote their wares to at least give the public an opportunity to see that the highs during this bull run are anomolies in the market? I could go on forever and nothing will change the fact that the poor are about to be fleeced of not only their savings but also their retirement! The big boys want it all this time and by the looks of it they will get it! Regardless of the outcome of the impeachment of your President he will go down as nothing short of a con-artist supreme! Its scary to think that AMERICANS ARE SO BLIND TO HIS GAME!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:27 - ID#219363)
If I knew what I was talking about I'd be making more money *grin*, but thanks for the compliment. I kiss my recent gains up to luck more than anything else.

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:31 - ID#430221)
Baltic Banking Group
Found the site:

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:35 - ID#31868)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:35 - ID#266105)

Brazil's influential newsmagazine Veja said this week that more than 80 percent of the package depended on Congress and the opposition was lining up in an unprecedented united front.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:41 - ID#31868)
"You may think that the Constitution is your security -- it is nothing but a piece of paper. You may think that the statutes are your security -- they are nothing but words in a book. You may think that elaborate mechanism of government is your security -- it is nothing at all, unless you have sound and uncorrupted public opinion to give life to your Constitution, to give vitality to your statutes, to make efficient your government machinery."

-- Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:42 - ID#430221)
Confidence-it's a game
I have read many of the reports by Baltic Banking Group and agree on
one thing that they say: Economics today is a confidence game run by
emotions. High tech does not change this fact.

So while I look at the desparate moves by Clinton/Rubin/Greenspan
what I see is panic-panic that it will all come down on their watch.
So what do panicked people do: manipulate like hell. Keep the game
going till I'm out of office. THE REASON: Hell hath no fury like a
Nation scorned!!!

These people do NOT run the system. The fiat system is now in control
and they know it. Gold is the measure of fear. So in it's own way
the super low price measures the fear by those who would destroy its
reputation so that they may accumulate at low prices.

So I repeat. Hell hath on fury like that of a Nation scorned.

Thanks, GD

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:47 - ID#430221)
2BRO2B----thanks for the effort on Baltic Banking Group

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:51 - ID#159145)
The Hatt
Unquestionably, one of the most frustrating things happening in the markets today is the government hedging bets in all international and domestic markets. Reality is no longer. It becomes more apparent as we travel this road, that the eventuality is the total collapse of our system today. The system features all those traits we dispise most,avarice,greed,manipulation,extortion,fraud,and the unequivocal need to save the current system itself. Soon the system implodes.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 14:58 - ID#45173)
Voyeur Professor
I sarted buying gold starting in June when the "gold is dead" matra seemed to reach peak volume. Recall the "stocks are dead" mantra of the early 1980s? Stocks, of course, were not dead. In retrospect it's now easy to see why stocks have done so well and also to see why anyone who had lived through the previous period could not imagine the changes that were to happen that created an environment for the biggest stock boom in history.

A couple of questions to consider before making your final call at the end of November on gold as a monetary asset. 1 ) Why has the price of gold not fallen steadily back toward $35/oz? Certainly not due to supply/demand for industrial purposes. 2 ) In whose interest is it for the price of gold to stay higher? 3 ) Why is gold at all a consideration in monetary reserve status for the euro? Can this be related to the objective of the euro, to get Europe off the dollar cross it has hung on since the end of WWII, a currency with no backing at all, except confidence that debts shall be repaid? Gold is the enemy of the dollar. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," say the Europeans.

I have my eye out for the next phase of the battle of the dollar against gold to keep gold marginalized as a monetary asset. The next level of battle will signal that the battle is heating up, that the dollar is becoming more vulnerable.

The dynamic is political rather than economic. Follow this URL and tell me what you think.

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 15:01 - ID#430221)
What is the escape route for these sobs?
The lying Clinton/Rubin/Greeenspan trio is but a metaphor for
the essential lie of Fiat money. What are these gentlemen to do?
They were asked to "run" the lie. By the electorate.

You don't really think ANY of them would tell the truth do you?
Ask first what would happen!!! I think they would get blamed for the
ensuing crash of the dollar and stock markets. They will not do this.
They need an escape path ( excuse ) . Who or What will it be?

Clinton is psycho. This is a dangerous situation. Stay low.
Will gold as it begins its rise become the scapegoat. Will they
confiscate gold from the evil ones who have it? We don't know, yet!

Interesting times coming.

I think gold is ready to rise soon.

Thanks, GD

(Sun Nov 01 1998 15:36 - ID#252150)
Italy's economy defies all logic@Everytime that I start to think that the U.S.
economy will collapse, I think back to the mid 80s when I was studying economics & started to notice predictions of doom for Italy. At that time they had deficits over 6% & their debt was approaching 75% of GDP. And yet, somehow they managed to muddle through & are now enjoying lower interest rates than the U.S. Canada was virtually being financially written off by the Fin Times as recently as 3 yrs ago, & now we have a surplus.

I have learned to never underestimate the financial ledgerdemain of the bureaucrats. So long as they can stay united in the defense of their fiat currencies against AU, I will remain flexible and not get trapped in any dogma.

I can't see how the CBs/bureaucrats will be able to get the global economy back on track, but meanwhile I will not make any large bets against them.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 15:44 - ID#266105)

Here's one that claims the Soros funds have more steep losses
from going short exactly when the S&P rallied, shorting around
the time Quantum fund manager Druckenmiller was making bullish
noises in public appearances.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 15:45 - ID#266105)


(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:06 - ID#31868)
Clintler has no soul...nope...none...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:07 - ID#266105)

Rangy in talks with interested parties for formation of new
company prompted by new use-it-or-lose-it mineral rights policy.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:09 - ID#266105)
oops again

rangy url, second article

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:15 - ID#254288)
Let see now!

1.Some hede funds destroy governments.

2.Some governments destroy hedge funds.

3.Some governments save hedge funds and say that they will never use the taxpayer's money unless an extreme emergency arises at which time all governments

4. The IMF with worldwide tax ( or hot printed press ) monies.

What we gotta do is understand ( and support within reason ) those countries who destroy hedge funds and attempt to get the others #1, #3, and #4 to kill each other off.

Then it's our job to set up the new rules of financial fairness, and go gold, and mint silver.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:17 - ID#31868)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:28 - ID#411198)
Volume: ""The steam that makes the Choo Choo go"
As the expression goes, don't confuse brains with a bull market!
On Gold:
"One clue to watch for is a breakout above resistance in
the 76.00-77.00 area in the XAU ( Gold and Silver stock index ) . I am
prepared to go long again should that occur."

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:35 - ID#266105)

t1-- Shelton for HeadFed chairwoman, for the eye candy if
nothing else, Wanniski sec of treas, Kemp prez.

"Don't vote, it just encourages them."

(Sun Nov 01 1998 16:41 - ID#31868)
2BRO2B, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...she is one bright Lady...I try and keep up
with her essays...she tells it like is...not the way people WANT to hear it...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:07 - ID#411198)
CROSSCURRENTS Alan M. Newman, Editor
On the other side of the coin!
"Manias are once in a lifetime events."
"we are concerned that the real problem lies with bonds,"
parallel to "1929"

I think I'll just go fishing.....RB

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:10 - ID#252150)
Yeah, but it got the old geezer another trip on the funnest ride extant.
From the always acerbic Alan Abelson:

Mr. Glenn's brave and daring exploit in the sere winter of 1962 orbited him
overnight into rarefied realms of adoration and celebrity. Indeed, great things
were widely expected of Mr. Glenn. Instead, he went into politics.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:12 - ID#31868)
looking back to look forward...huh...what...the sheeple are lost and confused eh...

Tantalus Rex
(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:23 - ID#295111)
China plans to *SELL* US$ to purchase EUROs

In summary, the above 2 links say ....

SHANGHAI, Nov 1 ( Reuters ) - China plans to convert a ``serious amount'' of its $141
billion in foreign exchange reserves into the euro after the new currency makes its debut in
1999, European Commission Vice-President Leon Brittan said on Sunday.

China's foreign exchange reserves are the world's second largest after those of Japan.

The bulk is held in U.S. dolllars with the Japanese yen and German mark also playing a key role.

``There's intense interest in that here and a commitment to put a serious amount of the reserves in the euro,'' Brittan told
Reuters in an interview.


.. I just can't wait till the Japanese do the same ...

This news bodes very well for the GOLD market!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:26 - ID#31868)
polls are so very interesting are they not? Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:31 - ID#31868)
here is a site some of you may wish to bookmark...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:46 - ID#219363)
The Public Debt To the Penny
As of 10/29/1998 the public debt is: $5,559,427,769,133.11


(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:47 - ID#31868)
the last set of responses is interesting eh...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:51 - ID#31868)
Get Camdesuss!!!...but leave enough for my dog to chew on...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:54 - ID#219363)
Interest Expense
Interest expense on the public debt

Fiscal Year 1998: $363,823,722,920.26
October 1998: $21,771,329,048.86


(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:55 - ID#411163)
Gold Dancer. I have to agree that the price of gold is a
measure of the fear. there is no fear. I talked to two different people last night and today. I explained how leveraged out everything is and my reasoning. Both thought me nuts. One said that their broker told them that another rate cut of 1/4% would take the Dow to the moon
and that gold was garbage and the Dow could never drop. The other quote todays local paper tht said that the Asian mess would have little of no effect on the USA. It will not get bad until these guys panic and that will take a lot more than what has happened yet.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 17:58 - ID#31868)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:05 - ID#31868)
uh huh...yup...exactly...
"if all rulers were good, you ought to keep your word, but since they are dishonest and do not keep faith with you, you in return, need not keep faith with them."

Machiavelli, Niccolo ( 1469-1527 )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:10 - ID#31868)
unless you are worried about black helicopters fill this out eh...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:12 - ID#411320)
@tolerant1, yeah and I was always taught that some that will lie to you will steal
Clinton is a dangerous man in deed and he will do a lot of damage
before this is over.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:26 - ID#31868)
here is an interesting site...uh huh...yup...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:33 - ID#31868)
Rich, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...Clintler News Network...CNN...Yup...uh huh...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:38 - ID#219363)
What do you get when you cross a 5.5 trillion dollar debt, non-existent citizen savings rate, 50 percent tax on consumers, with a slowing US economy ? Hint: it ain't good.

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:44 - ID#428232)
I like it.................

Date: Sun Nov 01 1998 17:23
Tantalus Rex ( China plans to *SELL* US$ to purchase EUROs )

Greenstone Gold
(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:45 - ID#428232)
I like it.......

Date: Sun Nov 01 1998 17:23
Tantalus Rex ( China plans to *SELL* US$ to purchase EUROs )

It will be rather interesting to see the US$ having to compete on a level playing field. The rest of the world does not play Grid Iron.......

(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:48 - ID#240241)
amazing if it actually means anything
The U.S. stock Market Crash Index.
that was posted here by someone a bit ago just went to +6. Per the
statement on the page, its time to go long on stocks. LOL. It was
updated today from +4 to +6.

Monkee Person
(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:52 - ID#350199)
An especially good day at Kitco...

...full of great links and excellent commentary.

Thanks to all.

Chicken man
(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:58 - ID#341297)
Envy @ An emperior with no clothes?
A chance for gold to be pallbearer

Just a thought...Chicken man...

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 18:59 - ID#430221)
I agree with what you just posted. The common person is in a state
of denial/euphoria.

But those in power are in fear. So they keep the people happy by
their lies. Rather they try and keep them confident. How long this will work is anyone's guess. I think time is up if the news stories are
acccurate. If Japan and China are going Euro, the dollar is going down.
My guess is that the Euro can be bought now by the Central banks and
has been available for some time. They just can't trade it yet. Other
wise why would China announce purchase? So they must be able to buy now
before you can. But they can sell dollars so after Election Day I
expect gold to start moving. Certainly by December.

I don't know when fear will strike the common person. I rode a number
of gold stocks down. All the way down. So maybe their confidence will
keep fear at bay for a long time. But gold will rise. Maybe it will have
to go over $500 or over $800 to create real fear. I just don't know.
I just own a lot of the stuff because I believe that a big shift is
going to take place.

I just meant that in pushing the price of gold down the big money
showed their fear of the real thing. That is why they try and discredit

But the common person? They have not a prayer in the world of surviving what is to come. At least in their invesments.

Thanks, GD

Gold Dancer
(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:02 - ID#430221)
Envy Riddle"
You get chaos.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:02 - ID#411320)
@oak, what jew invented that bogus.
ponzi crash index game for the goys. Thank god I am only half

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:12 - ID#344326)
@ The world....
Sell your US Dollars now ( before China does ) Got Golf?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:12 - ID#219363)
Treasury Trivia
QUESTION: I have some old silver certificates. How can I trade them in for silver dollars?

ANSWER: On March 25, 1964, the Secretary of the Treasury announced that silver certificates would no longer be redeemable in silver dollars. This decision was pursuant to the Act of June 4, 1963 ( 31 U.S.C. 405a-1 ) . The Act allowed the exchange of silver certificates for silver bullion until June 24, 1968. This was the deadline set by the Congress. Since that date, there has been no obligation to issue silver in any form in exchange for these certificates. You may be interested to know that the Congress took this action because there were approximately three million silver dollars remaining in the Treasury Department's vaults. These coins had high numismatic values, and there was no way to make an equitable distribution of them among the many people holding silver certificates.

Silver certificates are still legal tender and do still circulate at their face value. Depending upon the age and condition of the certificates, however, they may have a numismatic value to collectors and dealers.

QUESTION: I have some old gold certificates and would like to trade them in for gold. What should I do?

ANSWER: Gold certificates were withdrawn from circulation along with all gold coins and gold bullion as required by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934. Gold certificates circulated until December 28, 1933. That is when the President ordered private owners of gold certificates to deliver their notes to the Treasurer of the United States by midnight on January 17, 1934. It was then illegal to hold gold certificates. The Secretary of the Treasury removed the restrictions on the acquisition or holding of these notes on April 24, 1964.

Under 31 U.S.C. 5118 ( b ) as amended, "The United States Government may not pay out any gold coin. A person lawfully holding United States coins and currency may present the coins for currency . . . for exchange ( dollar for dollar ) for other United States coins and currency ( other than gold and silver coins ) that . . ." citizens may lawfully own. Although gold certificates are no longer produced and are not redeemable in gold, they still maintain their legal tender status. You may redeem the notes you have through the Treasury Department or any financial institution. The redemption, however, will be at the face value on the note. These notes may, however, have a "premium" value to coin and currency collectors or dealers.


(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:13 - ID#31868)
Clinton Declares/continues National Emergency


On November 12th, 1997 the Following Document was released to the American Public. The wording is quite descriptive and needs not be addressed,

However...we should look into the purpose of the Document...and ask.. .Why is it necessary for the President to put such a document into effect. He tells us that things couldn't be better...except for that 'gnat' from Iraq nipping on his xxx. Since the Press Release only 'references' Title 50 of the United States Code, it really doesn't spell out what our President is up to...So here it is... The Story behind the Story

A close White House Source...fearing to be involved with a violation of Federal law ( Misprison of a Felony...Title 18 section 4 of USC ) tells me that 'The President has empaneled a small, trusted group of legal minds...their identify the options available or needed to extend Clintons administration beyond its current term.' is the result of that Think Tank...Step 1...Extend a National State of Emergency as defined under United States Code, Title 50. Step 2...cause an event which is defined under this code ( nuclear, biological, or chemical weapon threat ) ...the event must be by use of a 'weapon of mass destruction' ( listen to Clinton...he is using this clause in virtually every speech he makes ) . The event does not have to take place within the boundaries of the U.S. Once that event has taken place...the President can extend his powers...take congress out of the lawmaking business by agreeing to consult with them 'from time to time' and put law and order in the hands of FEMA. Even the U.S. Military falls under FEMA jurisdiction... But this would require that a cooperative and trusted FEMA Chief be in place... Clintons Chief of Security while Governor of Arkansas was Raymond 'Buddy' Young...Young was appointed Region Six FEMA Boss in Clintons First Presidential Term...Young has recently been moved to Offices in Washington D.C. Will The present FEMA Chief step aside quietly...or will he be 'Browned' Out?

This Press Release was extracted from The White House Virtual Library

White House Press Release



Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release November 12, 1997



On November 14, 1994, by Executive Order 12938, I declared a national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States posed by the proliferation of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons ( "weapons of mass destruction" ) and the means of delivering such weapons. Because the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, the national emergency declared on November 14, 1994, and extended on November 14, 1995 and November 14,

1996, must continue in effect beyond November 14, 1997. Therefore, in accordance with section 202 ( d ) of the National Emergencies Act ( 50 U.S.C. 1622 ( d ) ) , I am continuing the national emergency declared in Executive Order 12938.

This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress.


THE WHITE HOUSE, November 12, 1997.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:20 - ID#190411)
The election season is upon we parasite-hosts again.
Haggis got screwed by the 'stralian machine. The Germans supposedly voted themselves into bondage again.
Now the merkins' chance is here. Our biennial auction on stolen property is about to commence.
There is nothing to be cheerful about with the gangsters that we are allowed to choose from.
If voting made a difference, it'd be outlawed.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:22 - ID#277224)
Appreciate the perspective on Durban Deep, also the sources
for additional information.Sounds encouraging!!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:23 - ID#190411)
Envy, That's all quite nice,but
you should excerpt the part about the utter valuelessness of the FRN's.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:25 - ID#333126)
the word "panic" appears in the financial news

admittedly, it's not telling the public not to panic but the UK chancellor, but's a start.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:26 - ID#411320)
@gold dancer @rack Guess you both concur with my thougths
when gold goes down I load up on maples, gsr, drooy and cash.
we are getting closer to our day in the sun, when gold goes down
rejoyce, its time to by more. When it comes time let the uniformed
pay our profits.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:34 - ID#401460)

I have said all along that Clinton is going for a third term. He will create such a problem that the people will beg him to stay in office.


(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:35 - ID#190411)
I did too. I bought all of the worthless shares I could last Friday.
I am ready for the worst news that the CB's can publicise.
I'd like to see an annotated chart of gold/ECU's with the notes showing CB press releases and rumors.
BBL. I have to bathe my smelly dogs, Rolling in the foulest scheiss that they could find.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:38 - ID#252391)
Early Nov2nd trading
Yen at 115.50 ( dollar a little weaker accross the currency board )
Gold unchanged - silver up 2 cents. Japanese and Australian stocks up 1-1.5%.

But the surprise move is OIL - up 40-45 cents taking out tops of recent trading range at $14.51. If this holds my oil srevice stocks might rally.

Platinum by the way is -you guessed it - down $1.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:42 - ID#333126)
buffett in a REIT


(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:45 - ID#404246)

tolerant1 you are plenty bright. I was just being too obtuse to make good sense. Only half of what is in my brain gets out at one time. Although I like skinny's comment I do live in the USA and can't call a jerk a jerk and get by with it. I agreed with your post. My comment had to do with your comment of:

"Americans are fat...spoiled and have an opinion about everything and yet do not do a damn thing with the Freedom that has been provided by those who came before them..."

Many Americans who have opinions about everything acquire them without thinking. This lack of thinking was my point. Schools no longer even teach that thinking is necessary, that a problem must be structured and analyzed. Because of this most don't know what Freedom is, nor care. They are like the plant in "Little Shop of Horrors" --- FEED ME!!!!!! --- FEED ME!!!!!!

Whether or not Y2K will shake the house down or not I don't know, but I am really concerned that what is happening to education and truth in this country WILL bring the house down.

Sorry to be so obtuse and take so long to get back to you. I left town right after posting that comment.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:48 - ID#219363)
The man
The myth, the legend, with what appears to be hair!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:57 - ID#219363)
@ERLE, your wish is my command
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.

Source: US Treasury,

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:59 - ID#333126)
storm mitch -- how have coffee futures been?

commodities traders made any money off this disaster yet? *sigh*

where can i buy banana calls?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 19:59 - ID#341227)
@BART...NOTE POST 19:02....
...posted by RICH.

It is a gross breach of netiquette. The type of crap that I responded to vociferously that ultimately had me expelled from this site when I stood up to all the anti-semites dominating this forum.

Hey, Rich, it ain't 1939 anymore...and nobody's gonna sit back quietly and walk obediently to the gas chambers. Sorry, buddy.

Do what you must do, Bart.



(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:05 - ID#333126)
T+2 trading in HK means some banks unhappy

T+0 trading in the future?

Gusto Oro
(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:13 - ID#377235)
Ravenfire, don't touch coffee until it falls to 90 ( should be around 110 now ) . Also, wait until Brazil devalues and the final spike down in coffee is in. Longer term I would think we will see 200+ coffee again. --Al

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:17 - ID#411198)
OK boys, time to pull out the Big guns^1898165@.ee74bd5>^1898165@.ee74bd5
Sean David Morton, "The biggest thing that's going to happen with Clinton, it's going to
begin.....let's see if I've got the dates,'s looking to me that sometime in
March.....April at the latest....that Clinton has a heart attack.
Physical......physical......physical......this is physical health affecting him, beginning
January 29th.....this is when the big struggle is going to begin".
"My prediction is, you're going to see the lowest voter turnout, I
think, in US history, on November 4th."

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:20 - ID#248180)
Farfel lighten up Please
If he would had talked about Russians, Irish, Scottish persons you would not have raised an eyebrow. Americans on this site take a hammering everyday. I don't see them immediatly wingning to Papa Bart. Let it go man. Live long and prosper. Enough of the childish victim crap.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:29 - ID#206235)
Shuttle Mission problems
It has come to my attention that certain minor technical problems have crept up on the shuttle mission.

Firstly, they have to keep cutting the live audio feed, because the geriatric John Glenn keeps nodding off and mumbling something in his sleep about "That damned Neil Armstrong's Moonwalk fraud...".

Then, there's the unforseen problem with the zero G Geritol IV feed to Glenn's veins.

Finally, we have the unfortunate issue of the directional navigation lights on the "wings". Seems this minor duty was given to John Glenn and the left "blinker" has been flashing for 60,000 miles now......

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:30 - ID#381342)
Keeping it in perspective
"Since the beginning of the world men have died; since the beginning of the world it has been well enough known that all earthly things are unstable, fleeting, corruptable. And yet with a sort of blind greed---men stake all they possess, all the forces of their souls upon this card which is bound to be trumped. They take their wealth to a bank which will certainly become insolvent." ( Diary of a Russian Preist--Fr. Alexander Elchianinov )
"Men are tired to disgust of money-economy. They hope for salvation from somewhere or other, for some real thing of honor or chivalry, of inward nobility, of unselfishness and duty." ( The Decline of the West--Oswald Spengler--1918 )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:31 - ID#401460)
Nikkei 225

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:31 - ID#206235)
@ Saddam and Arafat
Now that Sad damn is once agian defying the U.S....can our new middle East pal Arafat be far behind in blowing the recent peace accords? And more importantly, can they find Arafat a working razor somewhere in the middle east?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:31 - ID#252391)
OIL pulling back yen at 115.25
Oil now at $14.68, yen firming, while the metals yawn. Silver up a cent while gold is down 20 cents.

Pros probably selling into the oil spurt prompted by the over weekend Iraq rumblings. Always a good clue if prices can't build on news - even when there isn't really any.

Latest gold of 50 cents........

Never see up metals on Monday..

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:35 - ID#423380)
Quiet desperate lives!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:38 - ID#290456)
Load the wagons

( with silver, that is.. )

User: hixson
Password: thmetal

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:39 - ID#206235)
@ DOW..October one of best months of all time...Asia rising seems we can once again thank Steve Puetz for an incredible DOW preformance..October having posted one of the best monthly gains across the boards of all time. The stock I hold en masse ( Loral ) is up about 60% in the past 4 weeks. Not bad...... not bad at all....thanks again Puetz!

Asia up across the board at the moment. Looks like November is poised to follow October's lead. And to think...just 3 weeks ago, all we heard about was the total collapse of society as we know it.

Carry on U.S. economy... As the old man in Monty Python and the Holy Grail said..."Not dead yet....not dead yet"

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:39 - ID#252150)
Paranoia@Is once again
rearing it's ugly, addled head.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:40 - ID#273432)
and with gold

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:44 - ID#224230)
Behind the scenes...
Can't help feeling that the LTCM, Japanese repatriation of some treasuries - US$ partial fall - EURO, etc.etc. are the opening gambits in what is actually an east-West economic-financial world war.

And to play the gold card - and invoke the pure natural horror of its real value - is the reality-check H-Bomb that one side or the other will ultimately play out of desperation once all other moves have been made.

That event will destroy the weapons of both sides in the process by destroying all paper "wealth". The war being of course fought by moving all this illusory paper wealth around to inflict harm on one another.

Prior to one side pulling this gold trigger will be a process of trying to acquire large amounts of it WITHOUT affecting the price......

Shortterm the East ( Japan, HKChina, Singapore ) with all their savings vs. the West, with no "savings" will initially attempt to play the Euro off the US$ in some fashion.

Ultimately the west will prevail - because societies in the west based on democracy and basic freedoms have the ability to start from ground zero again and recreate the wealth. Western societies can CREATE new wealth out of nothing more efficiently using the liberated power of the individual - the silicon valley phenomena.

Before we get there many people are going to suffer for some years.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:44 - ID#411198)
jims....Never see up metals on Monday
"Buy on Mondays, Sell on Fridays". A jeweler friend of mine
told me this at dinner this weekend. He never traded a stock or
futures on "metals" in his life. Just seemed ( natural ) to him.
I'll have to back test it in TradStation. Just a thought! RB

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:45 - ID#290456)
Here's the silver URL again

User: hixson

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:47 - ID#290456)
password is thmetal

(Sun Nov 01 1998 20:52 - ID#219363)
Remember this ? Prime Minister Hoshimoto in June of 97 "I hope the U.S. will engage in efforts and cooperate to maintain exchange stability so that we would not succumb to this temptation to sell off Treasury bills and switch our foreign reserves to gold." The first country to do it will destroy the others as there is no way for Rubin to finance the deficit if his foreign buyers don't buy, worse if they sell.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:03 - ID#284255)
World Financial Market Collapse?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:03 - ID#224230)
envy - yes I remember
Which is why they've got a cooler head there now and Miyazawa back at the financial levers - don't need the generals blurting out the tactics to feed their macho egos. This is not a kids game we're watching.

Time to dust off Sun Tsu "Art of War" to figure out short term tactics and long term strategies. Clausewitz vs. Sun Tsu !

Gadzillions to be made watching this ultimate bloodsport - sidebetting here on the terraces ! i.e. Big moves East.....West.....Euro....Yuan....

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:04 - ID#333126)
Envy @ blast from the past re: Hashimoto
don't look now, but the US$/Yen is still moving...

logically though, you would expect the US$ to go down and gold to go up in this scenario ... and bonds to plunge ( *evil grin* ) ...

no overt signs yet though. ( equity ) bulls can continue to breathe.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:15 - ID#224230)
Correct perspective the key to sidebetters making the right moves
Any assumption that all the members of the G7 want the same happy outcome is misplaced - and will result in incorrect shortterm market move analyses. G7 is a shadow play. There is something to be gleened from G7 pronouncements though - based more on what isn't said than what is said.

We're at the phonywar stage in which players make little moves to see how good their opponents are and are still making gentlemanly comments to oneanother.

They're no room for idealistic naivete when sidebetting here !

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:18 - ID#284255)
Institute of Finance and Banking at the University of Gttingen

Links to:

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:32 - ID#219363)
Agreed, it's just warming up. We ( the US ) didn't send Rubin, et al over to Japan to sit and talk about ideas of what to do about their crisis, we sent them over there to look some people in the eyes with cold stares. Japan wouldn't dare do it, because the US retaliatory strike would be devastating. Nobody ( save Russia w/ what amounts to default, Indonesia w/ it's controls, and HK w/ it's market manipulation ) has even pulled out the weapons yet, the real weapons of old like trade barriers and the like. If Japan were to destroy the US's ability to finance it's debt, the US would certainly destroy Japan's market for goods in an effort to shutdown imports and boost the market for local goods. With 30+ percent of the debt in foreign hands, the world is not defenseless and the fur hasn't begun to fly. I've been searching the net for a while trying to find a break-down of exactly who owns the US debt, but it's oddly missing from the on-line reports, I can only find it up to 95.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:35 - ID#31868)
Envy, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...if I am not mistaken the last report I heard
was that England held the largest amount of US debt...I am not positive though...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:38 - ID#43349)
Getting closer to the wall...
I never expected it would be Vince Foster.

"Sometime in the next week or two or three, there will be bad news hit the press. Major bank failure or US declares war on Canada or Hillary was so complacent because she too had a boy friend. Whatever."

Date: Thu Oct 22 1998 07:07
Gollum ( Hitting the wall )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:40 - ID#411140)
sharefin, I've gotten my sister (small newspaper publisher in Herberton)
interested in checking out more Y2K material & thought I would send her your web page address if you could post it here again. She is ready to go with news articles where she can find them and is tempting me big time to bring the family to Au. when it comes time to sit it out.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:43 - ID#43349)
Dollar falls more

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:47 - ID#224230)
"to look some people in the eyes with cold stares !" Nicely put.

Agreed - though the conclusions about what Japan would or wouldn't dare do may well be premature. What I mean is that the rules of the game ought not be taken for granted. I've long thought that the Japanese don't really buy into the philosophy of capitalism in the same way we in the west do. It's partly the NIH syndrome ( not invented here ) .

Capitalism is the system required to support materialiam - an anglo-saxon cultural development paradigm. The Japs were the last to the cap/materialistic table dint of their losing WWII and the post WWII restructuring under MacArthur which gave us a head start.

We need to ask - to the oriental mind/philosophy - with a much longer historical perspective than an occidental's....what would constitute "winning" WWIII ? What would give a nation or region a 20 year headstart into the 21st century ? Is this a game like GO ( market share kindofathing ) or Chess ( never mind that marketshare/boardspace, I've just got your queen kindofagame - quite a different proposition )

i.e. What exactly IS the game - and thus what are its rules ?
( I've lived in Asia 18 years and am somewhat biased - but I'm convinced that this IS an East-West thang IMHO ) - example, Brazil is USA's problem to sort out - and thus a weight around their necks - Indonesia is Japan's problem...etc.The IMF is a spying operation, the G7 a "cold stare" zone.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:49 - ID#31868)
Envy, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...this may help you, but I am not sure...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:50 - ID#224230)
@envy....I forgot
And forget not that the game began THE DAY AFTER HongKong was given back to its original proxy - here in casino-markets of Thailand - where I live.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:55 - ID#43349)
The REAL crash
Will begin in the bond markets. Given that the bond markets are capitalized some two to four hundred times the size of the equities market, all of the hundreds of points up or down days on the street is just playing around.

The rally in the markets so far has been fueled in large part by the Fed lowering rates. Now it appears the liquidity crises is easing and Friday's GDP report raises doubts the Fed will be doing any more easing...

(Sun Nov 01 1998 21:57 - ID#43349)
was the biggest rise in the DOW for a month in over ten years.

Any bets on what kind of record November sets?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:10 - ID#373403)
Foreign ownership of U.S. Treasuries

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:13 - ID#45173)
Gollum: Lull them into the calm...
November is the men-from-the-boys month. The month that the stock market re-prices stocks for the Nov. funds rate decrease that doesn't doesn't materialize, the IMF bailout of Brazil that doesn't happen, the cure for the Japanese Asian Contagian that doesn't work... A few weeks ago the equities industry trade press was pointing out how the industry insiders were buying like crazy. "This is bullish!" they said. Now that the insiders are selling like crazy, where's press? You gotta dig like a mole to find this out.

Maybe someone's getting ready to perhaps rrrrrriiiiip someone's face off?


(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:17 - ID#284255)
Here's the url

I think up where your sister is would be a very good place to weather out the Y2k storm.

You're more than welcome to buy my house if you want to live in comfort though. ( :- ) ) )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:26 - ID#219363)
I'm gonna follow these links from MissingLink and Tolerant and see just how much of what is sitting out there, and where. I'm using hacked up numbers I picked up from around the net and want to check out the source. The numbers I'm looking at right now are telling me about 600 billion in foreign reserves, double what the FED holds, but I don't trust them. Want to see just how much of a financial pearl harbor job that would be if it were played. Yeah, budget surplus *shakes head*

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:31 - ID#266105)

Say EJ, I noticed this one again the other day--

Date: Sat Oct 31 1998 14:56
EJ ( Grizz ) ID#45173:
The 227 richest individuals in the world collectively hold more wealth than the 3 billion humans that represent the poorest half of the world's population. Income ratio of 13,215,859:1.


I'm seeing this little factoid bandied about, iterated and
reiterated in various places. It seems to have gained legs.
Do you think it is true?

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:34 - ID#26455)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:38 - ID#284255)
What Caused Asia's Economic and Currency Crisis and Its Global Contagion?

Has three new additions:
New Links ( Summer-Fall 1998 ) Global Financial Turmoil

Hedge Funds, Derivatives and Systemic Risk

Readings On IMF and the Global Financial Turmoil

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:43 - ID#286224)
Please take note of RICH at 19:02

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:48 - ID#252391)
No movement in the metals
Gold down 20 cents, silver up 20 cents, Plat down a buck, Oil holding at $14.68, above the recent consolidation area the top of which was $14.51.

In foreign currencies the metals are down pretty well. Lower limit of the ECU/Gold wedge getting tested.

Technicals in the metals are deteriorating!!!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 22:53 - ID#50148)
Regarding your 8:59; Huh? Perhaps you've been smoking your handle? Or could it be too much lysergic acid diethylamide lately? Perchance you could explain what you mean by this,

" I'm not sure.....but are you convinced that you have the "100% complete, accurate and undistorted perception of reality" when not on LSD?

If so, pls tell me about "the true nature of the universe"........

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,


Personally, I don't give hoot what anyone prefers to ingest so long as I'm not asked to foot the bill for the consequences. Also, if you do something really stupid under the influence of said substances... Well, be prepared to pay the price. A very high price.

Just because one can 'do' such things does not absolve them of the responsibilty for their actions. Now perhaps a comment on the markets and the election results that, according to Yahoo! ( should Republicans win big ) , crash the markets... :- ) ) This after Barron's survey says the opposite. What's a person to believe these days? Oh, and if I see Hillary on T.V. one more time stumping for the Dems, I'm gonna puke....

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:01 - ID#431200)
I will appreciate if somebody could give me an URL for ST HELENA ( SGOLY ) .Thanks.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:06 - ID#284255)
Dad's got a smile on his dial.
And a Kakapo on his shoulder.

And he just shouted out "Eureka"

Many kind thanks.
Archimedes was the kind of man
Who could bend all things to his will.
Invented the screw to make water run uphill
Burnt a Roman galley for fun
By concentrating the sun.
And built a ballistic mortar
To improve Grecian old world slaughter.

So the King Heiros, said "I think
The gold in this crown
Has deceitfully been watered down.
Can you find out the truth
And give me some proof?"

Archimedes said
"A pound of gold of whatever shape will grace
Only X amount of space.
Let's see how much water,
Your gold crown will displace."

And put it in his bath
Which made the King laugh!

"Now, the crown displaces Y amount of water
Which is more than it should.
So there's silver, mixed with the gold
Just as you thought it would."

"Good thinking," said the King.
"Will you give a name
To this cunning game?
Now that we've caught the stinker."
Archimedes frowned
"The only name that comes to mind
Came in the bath, it made you laugh.
It is of course EUREKA."

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:08 - ID#266105)

Goldtek/sgoly-- http://WWW.STHELENA.CO.ZA/

Seems to be down at the moment, has worked before.

panda-- some the American injun tribes are fond of
terming their ritual substances *de*hallucinogenics.
Now there's a thought. : )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:10 - ID#252391)
To: Goldtech re SGOLY
The following URL comes out of SA. I don't think the chart is accurate. News can be obtained by clicking on the "news" banner. I would appreciate anything else anybody has on this stock. Pretty interesting given its high dividend pay out.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:14 - ID#284255)
It's a long one but good
Man comes to the rescue: Is this the time before the great storm?

Over the last two years I have heard prophetic predictions that
there would be two large stock market corrections in the United
States before the year 2000.

I heard these predictions from people in Australia, New York, and
other areas around the world. These predictions rang true to my
spirit when I heard and prayed about them. With the serious nature
of the recent downturn and the magnitude of the events happening
worldwide, things looked ominous in size and significance. There
was a bombardment of negative news throughout the world. I felt, as
did many others, that if the markets did move up again it would be
short-lived and would be followed by another large dip.

The recent correction began in late July. In a period of 75 days,
the U.S. market lost $2 trillion in market capitalization; the
world markets lost another $2 trillion, and kept heading further
down. Most of the news we received for a period of 75 days or so
was bleak and ominous.

We saw currencies around the world get pushed down as the dollar
strengthened. The large hedge funds were blamed for the large drops
in values of the world currencies. We saw riots and violence in
Indonesia, and increased crime in China, Russia, and other
locations around the world because of economic hardships. We saw a
political crisis developing in Washington, and a nationally
televised, defiant message to the nation on August 17. After that
came the vote by the House Judiciary Committee to pursue
impeachment hearings after the elections.

We had a large hedge fund need an emergency $3.5 billion bailout
arranged by the Federal Reserve of New York, top Wall Street
leaders, and leaders of some of the largest banks in the United
States. According to Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan, if the fund had
failed it could have inflicted serious damage on many market
participants, and "could potentially have impaired the economies of
many nations, including our own."

Then we heard of the crisis scenario in Brazil and South America.
Brazil said they would need up to $30 billion to meet their debt
obligations. We also received the news that the oil producing
countries around the world had lost $80 billion in much-needed
revenues because of a worldwide glut of oil.

Most major news and business magazines in the United States
predicted a recession or possible depression, and Fortune, Forbes,
Newsweek, Business Week, Esquire, and others had cover page stories
on the state of world financial markets and the gloom that lay

We heard how the money for many commercial real estate projects had
been cut off in a matter of days without any notice. The money
dried up for REITs ( Real Estate Investment Trusts ) . And we also
heard of the liquidity crisis impacting small and large businesses
because of the concerns that bankers were having with the direction
of the economies and the concern with the loans on their books. We
also had large job layoff announcements by corporations and Wall
Street firms and major banks.

We even heard on CNBC from some of the top Wall Street economists
that, yes, we are in the beginning of a bear market, and that the
Dow Jones Industrial Average could fall into the 6000 to 7250 range
in the near future. ( This was when the Dow was trading in the 7400
range. )

Then there was a "quick change" of direction without much notice.
The Dow Jones average rallied, stocks began moving up again, and
renewed confidence came to the markets.

Then there was a week long lull, with very little market movement,
waiting for news.

This week it was one "good news" item after another. Yes,
compressed into one week, after a period of 90 days of gloom and

The good news came from many troubled areas of the world. We heard
of the "final status talks" in the Middle East after nine days of
meetings at Wye Plantation between Arafat, Netanyahu, and Clinton.
We heard from the Fed that they will continue to lower interest
rates to keep the U.S. economy from going into a recession; it is
even believed that the Federal Reserve policy-makers will trim
interest rates another quarter percentage point when they meet next
on Nov. 17, to counter trade weakness and a likely scale-back in
additions to inventories. Fed Director Kelly said he was
"cautiously optimistic" that Y2k wouldn't cause a recession in the
U.S. We heard positive news about Japan's $500 billion in public
savings bailout of their banking system. Russia's Prime Minister
Primakov ( the former KGB spymaster ) introduced plans which included
tighter state controls on the economy; the measures included a
gradual cut in income tax, limiting monthly inflation for 1998 to
5% and annual inflation next year to 30%, and allowing the ruble to
find its own level under the watchful eye of the IMF, which is
waiting to release an additional $4.5 billion in aid.

Brazil agreed to large and significant commitments in order to
appease the IMF and international bankers, in exchange for the
IMF's $30 billion commitment.

Then on Friday, October 30th, the G7 ( top seven industrial
countries in the world ) announced a plan to stop future
international swings; the plan would create tighter global
financial regulation and a big bailout fund to head off future
economic crises.

UK Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown, who is currently
chairman of the G7 finance ministers, said that the reforms were
designed to "strengthen the global financial system" and to head
off future economic crises. The centerpiece of the G7's proposals
is a new facility for the International Monetary Fund to lend money
quickly to countries facing financial market problems, rather than
having them drag out as they have the last year.

They would set up a new IMF fund worth $90 billion for emergency
lending to stop a crisis from spreading into other economies. The
money is to be complemented by private sector contributions. There
would be tighter regulation of the world's international capital
markets to prevent a repeat of the recent financial turmoil. A code
of practice for private banks and businesses, designed to regulate
highly leveraged companies like hedge funds, would be instituted.
There would be "transparency rules" for companies in order to make
financial transactions and dangers to the markets more visible. An
international code of conduct for monetary and financial policy in
G7 countries would be established. There would be new rules for
monitoring international capital flows. A new World Bank welfare
fund would be established to alleviate economic suffering among the
most vulnerable people in the emerging economies.

We even received news Friday in the United States that our Gross
Domestic Product ( GDP ) experienced a 3% gain in the third quarter,
after a 1.7% gain in the second quarter. Also, lenders began
loosening credit to help deal with the liquidity crisis that has
affected companies in the last 60 days.

To many who heard this news this week, it seems that "man" has come
to the rescue of the world markets again and has given people much
confidence in the economy and in the markets. This comes after bad
and even horrible news of intense magnitude; then, in a week, one
positive news story after another. This is remarkable, to say the
least. There was even a commitment by the Fed to keep this economy
churning by lowering interest rates further if needed to fend off
sluggish growth and to revitalize the economy.

This has been a very good week for positive news. If I didn't know
what I know, I could be pulled into this optimism, too. Optimism is
much more enjoyable than pessimism, and very contagious. Yet below
I have provided reasons to be cautious in the months and year


Cracks in the Foundations of Japan and Russia

There are still many cracks underneath the surface in Japan and

 Japan's problems will take at best 5 to 7 years to fix in normal
 A majority of Japan's large banks are broke and in need of a
massive bailout.
 Japan's bad debt is now estimated at over $1.2 trillion. Some
even say that, despite their massive private savings ( $11
trillion ) , their corporate, government, and private debt makes them
technically broke.
 Japan is also reliant on the U.S. and Western Europe to keep
buying their exports to avoid a further and deeper correction.
 Russia has technically filed for bankruptcy, by defaulting on its
massive international debt.
 Over 40% of Russia's economy is run by corrupt underworld
figures. Russia has a former communist leader ( Primakov ) running
the country because the president is too ill to attend meetings.
 They fear a cold winter, they have many in the military going
without food, and they still have over 20,000 nuclear missiles in
 Parliament is demanding that Primakov reassert state control over
wide sectors of the economy, spend more on welfare, and pay back
wage arrears, while the IMF is insisting on urgent fiscal reform,
tight money, and spending cuts.
 Although Primakov has brought Russia some much-needed political
stability, he has so far served up little more than platitudes on
the economy.


Things That Could Happen "in the Blink of an Eye"

"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the
ark." -- Matthew 24:38 ( NIV )

 Further large hedge fund losses could threaten the world's
banking system.
 Major loss potential with $10 trillion in financial derivatives
coming due in Southeast Asia by the end of the year; huge financial
exposure for four major American banks.
 The repercussions of an unsuccessful completion of the Middle
East final status talks.
 The political fallout potential with the Clinton impeachment
hearings and the opening of hearings on Al Gore and the China
fundraising situation.
 A potentially unsuccessful and complicated Euro introduction,
beginning January 1, 1999, and its impact on our world financial
 The worsening of the Russian financial crisis, their potential
move back to communism with Primakov already in place, and concerns
over their 20,000 missiles.
 Increasing concerns over the prospect of nuclear war between
India and Pakistan.
 Concerns over the prospect of bio-terrorism attacks in the United
States; Department of Defense teams in cooperation with the
National Guard will have people in place in 20 states by the end of
 Concerns over Iran's growing nuclear capabilities.
 Iraq's refusal to work with the UN teams who are tasked with
examining their biological weapons buildup and its potential
 The heightened probability of communication satellites being
temporarily or permanently disabled by solar flares, meteor
showers, or sunspot-related phenomena, and the affect of such
disruptions on business. ( The loss of Galaxy 4 knocked out 90% of
the pagers in the U.S. for a day or so. )
 The beginning of the manifestation of Y2k problems in the first
quarter of 1999.
 The impact that people's planning and preparing for Y2k will have
on the economy.
 The impact that bank runs could have on the U.S. economy.
 The downturn in consumer confidence ( two-thirds of the economy is
consumer driven ) and its impact on the American economy and the
world economies.


Plan and Prepare

"A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep
going and suffer for it." -- Proverbs 22:3 ( NIV )

Whatever transpires, it looks as though we might see some positive
things happen in the financial markets in the near term. But, as
listed above, things could change "in the blink of an eye" as they
did in the last 90 days.

Man is not going to solve this huge problem of great magnitude; you
can count on that. Yet, recent improvements might seem to many to
be a vote of confidence that man is resourceful enough to solve any
world economic problem. After the negative activity of the last 90
days, combined with the good news of the last week on the economic
front, that swagger and confidence of man seems to be coming back.

We all must remember that the Lord is in total control. He has
allowed the greatest economy in history to be developed. He has
allowed man to fix the short-term problems and to develop a renewed
confidence in the system and in his own ingenuity. He can also
allow it to come unraveled by removing His protection from a nation
and a world that is idolatrous and so undeserving of economic

As many are saying, the judgment of the Lord is at hand. Only
through our faith in Him and our true repentance will we be able to
survive the coming storm. Only those whom the Lord has quickened
through the Holy Spirit even sense what is ahead.

Pray for the Lord to continue guiding and directing you in the days
ahead. Pray that He will provide you the discernment that you will
need as you enter 1999.

God bless you all.

Koenig's International News - Bill Koenig -

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:15 - ID#50148)
Freedom of speech.
The purpose of the first ammendment to the Constitution of the United States was to allow all political speech, no matter how vile and repugnant. The Founders of the Constitution were correct in that prohibiting such speech merely drove it and its purveyors underground. Tis far better to know opposing views and whence they come from than not. The trend of the so called 'hate crimes' laws is really nothing more than an attack on basic freedoms enshrined in the Constitution. When the gubament tells you what is wrong think/speak and what is good ( correct ) speak/think, then George Orwells world has arrived. If I've offended you THC by deriding Bill and Hill, then so be it. I find them vile and the party that defends them equally repugnant. When I hear how trivial charges of perjury and obstruction of justice are...., here is something to chew on... A man was recently sentenced to TEN years in prision for obstruction of justice in a capital case. No, he didn't commit the murder, or for that matter, know who did the crime. No, his fault was in refusing to talk to the police. Sort of sounds like... Well, we know who now don't we.....

Just remember, we have the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean that you have to listen to me or vice-versa. Now, let the food fight begin!

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:15 - ID#421269)

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:16 - ID#25490)
Haere. mai Haere mai. Haere mai.
sharefin & Dad
My pleasure, I reckon the Kakapo sits well on your Dad's shoulder, eh? Like so many here, I very much enjoy your site and URLs, and your Dad's poetry..

We are truly gifted at kitco to receive such generosity from clan Laird. Thank you.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:17 - ID#45173)
Yes, it comes from UN data so it must be true :- )

I initially got the info from a socialist rag handed to me on a road trip. No, I admit, I PAID for this socialst rag, a bit of a paradox. Anyway, the growing disparity of wealth attending this particular economic transition from Industrial Age to Information Age, as attended the last one, Agrarian to Industrial, due to displacements of wealth from one groups of people to another, is no secret; if you're good at growing corn you probably aren't good at making steel. Same goes for steel and software. The political problems the disparity is creating are less well publicized.

Two facts are certain. Rapid growth in productivity is always followed by political turmoil. Budget surplusses are always followed by recessions or depressions. Always.

By the way, thanks for all your URL posts. You seem to find some of the best stuff out there.


(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:18 - ID#411140)
sharefin- thanks for the url, have to pass on the luxury though...
luxury might be redefined as close approximation to fresh water and solar pnls etc. yes? {:- )

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:45 - ID#219363)
Checked out the numbers to see exactly who holds the big potato and thought I'd post it for those interested in such things. So here it is, the mother of all numbers.

Total federal securities outstanding: 5,577,860 billion $US ( 5.5 tril ) .

But the question was, who exactly holds it ?

Total held by private investors: 3,324,270 billion $US ( 3.3 tril )

Commercial Banks: 275 billion
Individuals ( Savings Bonds ) : 186 billion
Individuals ( Other Securities ) : 165 billion
Insurance Companies: 288 billion
Money Market Funds: 82.9 billion
Corporations: 267.2 billion
State and Local Governments: 441 billion
Foreign and International: 1,247.4 billion
Other: 438 billion

So checking out the numbers, it looks like foreign and international folks are holding about 1.2 trillion dollars in US debt, or about 20 percent by my read. That's more than 4 times what the commercial banks in the states hold, and 15 times what the domestic money market funds hold. Anyway, it's pretty much. 60 percent of it is held by private investors of one kind or another.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:48 - ID#219363)
Quick followup, obviously those first two numbers are millions and not billions.

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:53 - ID#251180)
Turn on the light!
The mood seems to be getting darker on kitco these days, PGO tanking? , Freedom of speech is everyones right , however some must pay for their comments. It seems that some want freedom of speech without any responsibility for what they say. While we are posting biblical slanted scripts, remember that jesus said it is not what man puts into his mouth that defiles him but what comes out. For all those wanting a plague ( Deflation, Bank crashes , Y2K , etc ) on mankind, remember the power law - BIG events like dinosaur killing asteroids come only very rarely.How many kitcoites does it take to change a lightglobe - none they prefer the dark !

(Sun Nov 01 1998 23:58 - ID#153110)
@What Is Truth
A budding attorney with a copy of Zen on his coffee table ridiculed Truth, assuring me that only the unsophisticated, the uninformed, the undeducated believe in an absolute Truth.

But, he had no answer when I asked, "If so, then, what is a Lie ?"

Time is a relation, the emblem of which is the arrow. ( credit to Hawkes )

Our consciousness of the relation called Time is individually subjective, but collectively objective.

Time is also used in colloquial expressions such as "How much time did the judge give you ?" which is an oddity in that judges take your time. None has done that to me so far.