Thanks for the reply. I've busy little fingers here vying
for the keyboard always...homework, games, chat. A better use,
really. Adieu.

Perhaps to do some lucid dreaming. Good night.

Want to venture a guess on where we're headed in gold and the equity markets for the next few weeks ? Inquiring minds wanna know.

Been dancing up on my toes forever, spent my last Canadian
dime ( = 2 cents ) on the golden slippers... but now can't
afford the dress. And the midnite hour is upon us...
is that a pumpkin in the distance I see? I thought Halloween
was over... not for the gold market yet, I suppose.

But thanks for the golden ray of hope. I'm in for the loooong
haul.

Jan

Friedrich Nietzsche ( 1844-1900 ) :
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

Kierkegaard:
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

Margaret Bonnano:
"It is only possible to live happily ever after on a day-to-day basis."

As the full moon approaches on the forth of November the markets are becoming increasingly agitated and volatile I heard several experts and market pundits, alluding to what is occurring as a buying panic a market being driven to dizzying heights by excess liquidity created by the feds interest rate reductions and the promises of more to come. If this ends in a disastrous crash the fed will have to bear full responsibility The might have made a very serious mistake by triggering a wave of irrational exuberance that in the end might have far more serious consequences than if the had let the markets adjust on there own. - cjk -

Monday November 2, 6:21 pm Eastern Time

FOCUS-U.S. savings rate falls to Depression-era low

By Caren Bohan

WASHINGTON, Nov 2 ( Reuters ) - Americans went on a spending spree in
September, driving the U.S. savings rate to the lowest level since the Great
Depression of the 1930s, government figures showed on Monday.

Despite comparisons to the Great Depression, economists were not alarmed by the figures, saying that unlike in the 1930s consumers had vast sources of wealth accumulated from the stock market and appreciation in home values.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981102/bf4.html

HighRise

Yes, I've got that same queer feeling in my stomach again that's telling me to run for the exits. Just watching the dow gives me altitude sickness. ( of course, as Ebenezer Scrooge said of the ghost- it might also be "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato" )

I made some money on the Nekkei tonight, I think I'll cash in tomorrow and buy some puts. In spite of everbody's confidence that the fix is in and that AG has this thing by the ba**s, I think they are yet mortals- and Zeus still has fun mocking men who try to scale Olympus.

You really are a piece of work !

Sharefin ( your swing chart worried me - cells Z966:AE967 )
You can get rid of those nasty #DIV/0! errors by using:

IF ( logical_test,value_if_true,value_if_false )

Logical_test is any value or expression that can be evaluated to TRUE or FALSE.

Value_if_true is the value that is returned if logical_test is TRUE. If logical_test is TRUE and value_if_true is omitted, TRUE is returned. Value_if_true can be another formula.

Value_if_false is the value that is returned if logical_test is FALSE. If logical_test is FALSE and value_if_false is omitted, FALSE is returned. Value_if_false can be another formula.

IF ( the value of "B" is not equal to 0,then do division calculation "A"/"B",otherwise default to 0 )

"Not equal to" is the combination of the less than & greater than symbols.
Can'tt use them in a post because they are CGI mark-up symbols.

But then again, maybe the error messages serve a purpose as is.
and you already knew this...
( unsolicited advice - worth what you paid for it )

Thankyou for your generous attitude. Reading Gollum's post leads me to belive he sees something coming, I have and will continue to read his reasons for this with great interest.

I am so glad to have come off the boats and beaches and onto the internet and a flush toliet, and running water, and electricity and now Sharefin tells me I'll maybe be heading back to the wilds. Chill..chill

I would like to apologize for the "stuff it" post earlier this evening. It was obviously uncalled for. Yo ciento mucho.

This is what I sent to Aurator;
-----------------
I have a few kilos of obsidian here in Cairns.
It comes in a variety of colours.
The jet black being the most common.
But also in red - orange - honey - grey and green, also a fleckled/mottley pattern and a tiger stripe pattern.

I know all the hidey holes on Mayor Island where to get these special colours.
I spent 6 odd years growing up on the Island.
So many fond memories.
------------------------

If you have any other questions about obsidian please feel free to email
sharefin@cairns.net.au

--------------------------
Gollum
Sir, Your comments are poignant enough to make me quake in my boots.

I think the other side will be so much more violent than what we have seen before.

----
If global equity markets are approximately $20 trillion to $30 trillion
And the derivatives are $100 trillion to $150 trillion
And bond markets 200 to 400 times this size. ( can someone confirm this figure??? )
Which would equate to $4000 trillion to $12,000 trillion.

We are looking anywhere in the range of $4120 trillion up to $12180 trillion as the sum total of all at risk.

Talk about a ponzi debt/credit scheme.^o-o^

Now how much could be allowed to fail before there would be total systemic failure?

Would $1 trillion be enough to collapse the lot? Or $10 trillion?
A 1% failure would amount to a $40 trillion failure

Now this is enough to raise the sweat on AG's brow.

And then try to grasp the reality of Y2k.

The depths to which we have driven the transfer of these ficticious sums of capital, that rely soley upon technological systems of transfer.

One can certainly catch a glimpse of what Gary North is trying to say.

Beware and bewarned.

Soon it will be NASB.

Feds seem to realize this and have pulled the other way - they have been buying over the past few weeks at FED rate 4.6, in any case, below 5%. Today Fed funds were over 5.5% through the day. Are they trying to suck back what they just pumped in?

Try as I might, I am unable to think of a technical reason for that gloomy a prognosis. It isn't as if we will lose our ability to think and utilize resources from the past. The power grid will not self destruct. Though it may require some dismemberment ( lifting of loads ) in the short term. The knowledge base will not be destroyed. ....... In many ways, M. North does himself a disservice by exageration. IMO.

Red, orange, honey, tiger-stripe? I feel quite deprived suddenly, we only see black and grey locally. With time I shall e-mail.

NEW YORK, Nov 2 ( Reuters ) - U.S. Treasuries ended sharply lower on Monday as the stock market pressed higher, depleting the demand for safe-haven securities just when the Treasury market was being flooded with new supply.

If you do, then tell me why the bonds were going down all year long as the Dow went up and up ......to 9000+.

The relationships have changed, they are forced to offer more interest on the bonds if they are going to sell them. And it is not the Dow that is competeing with the Bonds it is Europe and the Euro and other safer and more rewarding investments. You can buy 75% of the World for $0.50 on the $1.00 or better, why buy US bonds at 5%

HighRise

Minefinders Corp., ( MFL.TO ) , press releases today should cause
a gap up. Let's watch tomorrow for some excitement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.minefinders.com/news/nr981102.htm

america running the world..

http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96jun/schwarz/schwarz.htm

israel...

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Article-1.html

That's probably the biggest 'chin scratcher' that's happening
in the investment world today. Thanks for the post.

Could it be that there is less money in the markets as a whole, that so much liquidity has been lost or drained out of the markets that as money flows into the Dow it does drain funds from Bonds and Gold when similar moves did not before?

Which ever it is, things are different now.

HighRise

This isn't wishful thinking, that is, I hope this speculative bet doesn't pay off because it would just cause havoc, but my bets are out on a drop back down to 7500 where we make a lame attempt to rally, then a drop to 6500 where we make an even lamer attempt, and finally a less than delicate fall to between 5000 and 5500. Not saying it'll happen, and hope it doesn't, but the chances are good enough to me for some betting money. This chart looks really familiar, and the recent rally just makes it look even better. If this doesn't happen in the next, say, three or four weeks, then I'll be a little more at ease and probably won't bet against the market, though I certainly won't be betting on it either. What news would get my attention ? Loses in the financials that haven't been disclosed as of yet, selling of treasures by BOJ, spike up in gold to above 315, high volatility in either bonds or the dollar, foreign markets making new lows, serious divergence between silver and gold that leads to an even gold price and rapidly falling silver, and any equity activity that drops us more than two hundred points in one day as we're approaching 8000 on the downside. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. But for some reason I'm still betting on it. Don't even ask me to explain any of it because there isn't much rational thought behind it, and not much money either. Last thing anybody would want to do, not that anybody is this silly, would be to bet on something like this because they saw this post. My thinking, even on a wildly speculative level, would be shaken if we were to push 9000 or higher, and we're close.

I was poled by Bart about uncivilized comments on his wonderful site, I was one of the people who voted on freedom of speach. My feelings were that I don't for the most part read racist entries and if everyone didn't respond to them these small people they would go elsewhere. I don't understand the ax some people grind about the Jewish people but here are my feelings that I posted on Kitco a few times in the past.

******************************************************************

Recently there were some excellent posts on gold by John Kutyn and some not so good on the House of Rothschild and central banks by others. After giving the efforts of these gentlemen some thought, I decided to give an input on these subjects. I'm inclined to hitch my fate to the precious yellow. There are some reasons for this, one is that the banks once before tried to suppress the price of gold during the days of the "London Gold Pool" in the early and middle 1960's. They cried "Uncle" after a long and valiant attempt to keep gold at US$35.00, then Uncle Sam himself called it quits in 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window to foreign bank conversion of US dollars for US gold. To date no one on earth has proven that they were bigger than the markets, ask the Rockefellers, OPEC or any other cartel in the history of mankind. Control is a temporary thing. The DeBeers diamond cartel seems to be the most successful to date but their control stemmed from their control of S. Africa's diamond fields. Diamonds are not as rare as once thought nor are they only found in S. Africa. I suspect they will one day lose their control of the price of diamonds as production comes to the market place from sundry other countries out side of Debeers' cartel.

I remember reading in Barron's some years ago where Malaysia was dictating the price of tin for many a year, like DeBeers they gave their product's price a upward bias, to do so they had to keep tin stock off the market in warehouses. At the start it was good for the cartel but at some point reality was forced upon the tin cartel and to recoup costs, the excess stock was sold at forced liquidation prices. Tin dropped and the protected tin mining industry in Malaysia suffered for years until the imbalances from the hoarded stockpile was feed into the real economy. I wonder how many beautiful gems are being stored in vaults somewhere by DeBeers? There are all to many instances where powerful forces, usually working in conjunction with a government somewhere, are at odds with the market pricing mechanism. Usually cartels want a higher price, but in the case of gold the dollar cartel will always desires a lower gold price, the lower the better as increasing gold prices implies an increased production of US$ and possibly some doubt in the full faith and credit of the US Government. I believe the current low gold prices are the true measure of desperation the dollar cartel is currently feeling. In a free market, the US$ of the latter half of the 20th century could not compete with a barbaric relic like gold. In the end the manipulation of any cartel will always produce the opposite result than what the cartel had desired, often the correction is violent. Typically in the end the cartel gets in so deep that the final actions are acts of desperation by desperate men no longer concerned about maximize profit ( or personal power ) but rather are intent upon economic or personal survival. With gold and the US$ I believe history will show ( once again ) that no one is bigger than the markets.

The issue of gold being made illegal and a one world currency is forced upon the world I think would be very difficult to achieve on a global basis. A strong case can be made that China, India, and many former colonies of the Europeans nations would be unwilling to play that game, Japan too is getting tired of being The United States Government's little whipping boy. Lord knows these countries have more than a little blame for the condition they find themselves in, however, if their politicians are worth their salt, they will find someone to place all the blame on for their current problems. The long gone colonial masters would be perfect, blame it on the British! It will not be harder to whip up the battered masses in SE Asia against the "New World Currency" ( same as the New World Order ) than it is to whip up hatred for the CIA for selling crack cocaine in South Central L.A. The idea is ridiculous but as we are talking about cartels, well how knows but really who cares in South Central L.A. They're mad and upset and just need someone or something to strike out against, the CIA will do. Hate is as addictive as crack and many times as dangerous to civilized society.

I believe that the majority of the world population lies outside the control of the Rothschilds and George Soros. If the third world refuses to do business with this new Rothschild's inspired fiat currency and insist upon a currency that meets with their approval, it will be in their interest, and power of these Pacific Nations to insist upon a fair playing field when doing business with the Atlantic Nations. What would the currency gods of this new currency cartel do if they created a new paper standard and then over half of the world refused to accept it as payment? No doubt the currency cartel would refuse to sell cars, computers, steel, oil to Asia Inc, the only question would be if the boycott was put in effect before or after the high tariffs were in place to keep the Atlantic nation's cars, computers, steel and oil out of Asia Inc! The so called Third world is no longer an area that lacks world class production capability or the brains to manage industry, they can go it alone if need be for both basic materials or high caliber finished goods. The US can't get our allies to stop trading with the very sinister Iraqis, are the new masters of the universe going to pull out all stops for the crippling our former Asian Allies for not accepting this new fiat currency? I think not! There would be some difficulties for an unseen cabal to force a undesirable currency upon what will one day be a solvent S.E. Asia. Remember, as far as the current problems in S.E. Asia are concerned "they too shall pass".

The worst nightmare a puppet master can have is for someone to cut his strings. Reading Malaysian and other SE Asian nations news papers on the Internet, it seems that they are rather peeved at George Soros right now, I don't think he could get them to buy a used car from him let alone a new fiat currency. Think about this; the world's Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, and Chinese have no connections, cultural or otherwise, with Jewish bankers that could possibly entice them to surrender control over their territories, economies, or national wealth. How would anyone push around billions of people who are economically formidable on their own right and now, in a very post-colonial way, will demand respect?

I think the House of Rothschild is being much maligned by people who have only a superficial understanding of how the real world works. The moneyed jews in the middle ages could tell the Rothschilds a thing or two about doing business in a hostile culture. You don't make King Richard do anything in Merry old England. But then, I suspect that the House of Rothschilds may already know this. Their is danger in wagering your capitol in a hostile environment, risk capital expect a premium. I'm not saying bankers, Jewish or other wise wont try to get the best part a deal, even to the point of taking people to the cleaners; they do. I would do it if I could, and if your honest you'll admit that you never called your broker to give back your capitol gains to bail out some poor soul that was on the losing side of that grand slam trade you made a killing on.

I think only a Marxist could be so willfully ignorant as to waste time in plotting ways to conquer the world: Lenin and that lot dreamed of total world domination as did the leader of the NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY, Adolph Hitler himself. If you doubt Hitler's socialism, you should read the diaries of the Nazi's Minister of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment, Dr. Goebbels. He had no problems with his beloved swastika on a field of red. The Nazi's solution for saving the world from this Jewish Banker's obsession with total world domination was WWII. Now some people have gone to great lengths informing us of a great problem with the Rothschilds and co-conspiring banks diabolical design of subduing the world with a one world fiat currency that will destroy all human happiness. Now I'm interested in hearing from those people just what is your solution to this Jewish Banker question? I would like to hear how you would propose to deal with this clear and present danger. Don't be shy, remember, Comrade Stalin's motto: "you can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs". In the 20th century were you see big government and the ravages it brings, think socialism, not capitalistic Jewish Bankers!

If there is one item I would like to see feedback from readers of this posting, it would be on how a financial collapse in a country would differ from one engineered by Jewish bankers headed by the Rothschilds from say a financial collapse engineered by citizens of Western Democracies themselves by voting in politicians who only did what they were sent to the nations capitol to do: send home the pork at no cost to the voters. I don't pretend to speak for the world, just the U.S. and the problems we have over here don't require the House of Rothschild to explain what is going to happen. Since Roosevelt, in America, we have sent people into office that spent the US Treasury into the poor house and gave us tax breaks and incentives to entice the voters to do like wise. For politicians to have done otherwise would have ended many a brilliant political career. So what would the difference be? I spent many hours doing corrective maintenance on electronics, one of the first things I learnt was you can't fix anything until you can identify the malfunction. I put it to you that the malfunction in America is the morals of the voters who vote in people to office do for them that which they refuse to do themselves, be responsible. In America, we have placed layers of bureaucracy between us and our risks from medical emergencies to retiring in some comfort. "What fools these voter be". We gave our treasure to scoundrels who spent that and then pledged our children's future for the purchase of a ticket for to fools paradise. There use to be a cartoon in the US called "Pogo", and Pogo had a saying "we have met the enemy and he is us."

I like a good conspiracy theory as well as anyone, but the after 1,500 years of worrying about the Jewish bankers obsession with dominating all of Christendom, I for one have finally concluded that if this is so, then the Jewish Bankers they are truly the gang that couldn't shoot straight. For a change I for one would enjoy a conspiracy with the Knights Templars, after all the Templars have been underground since 1314 AD. Most people have never heard of the Knights of the Temple, but let me assure you they walk among us! You will not find any record of tax payment on Templar profits or reference of this organization in any nations where they now currently plot and scheme. Granted a Satanic charter from the Roman Anti-Christ himself, these warrior monks have for 700 years polluted not only every government on earth but also the Free Masons, Italian Mafia, and the Kennedy Family. Why wont a Kennedy ever do hard time, they're Irish Templars!

IMO, your depends heavily on some unforseen external event to shake the complacency of the markets. Likewise for gold. OTOH, the VIX has dropped to about 25 so, if options be yer game ......

And heaven knows there are an endless supply of potential candidates for sources of calamity. And you're in good company; Jesse Livermore frequently gave vent to his premonitions and, according to his biography, was successful when they ocurred.

In the meantime the fed has become very adept at their manipulation and there is no stomach for looking at anything below the surface, by anyone who matters.

for Mozel ..

you said ..

"A Mad Sovereign cannot be prevented from bringing
on the bloodshed event that takes his head. For,
bloodshed events done by his own hand always
precede and provoke it. "

That's what I call a happy equilibrium. Now, a mad
leader that provokes similar events gets a golden
handshake, or a UN ambassadorship, or royalties from
his latest book , or adoration in perpetuity.
( see FDR as example )

The #DIV/0! errors come in because they are the formulas, 'unfilled' for tomorrow's data.

I'm not aware enough to remove them, and they do not concern me at all.

Thanks for the info on how to remove them but I don't think I'll bother.

---------------------------------------
Envy
I don't see gold going higher untill the markets have tanked.
Be it that it takes 2 weeks or 10 months.

Debts will have to be repaid.
And I would expect gold to go lower as they are being repaid.

As to the markets - well?
We all know of the irrationality of what is happening.

How long can they extend this mania?

My guess is that very soon we will see the markets direction change course and head downhill.

Our Aussie market looks to have made a reversal today.

Personally if I had the moola to bet I would be averaging into put position now.

But I do feel gold will be going lower yet.

Gold is like an internal barometer of fiscal pressures with in the system.

While the pressures expand, gold's price will retract.
( Have not we already seen this in motion this last year? )

And gold's price should not expand till the pressures are released.
Which should occur after the great market fall occurs.

Whether in the long term ( 1 year out )
"They" can contain these internal pressure is beyond me.
"They" have the power to create unlimited 'globs' of money to try and stabilise these tetering markets.

Of course all said with toungue in cheek and IMHO.

Probably posted earlier, if you haven't seen this take a look.

http://www.drudgereport.com/abc1.htm
And ABC is reporting all of this -- and hundreds of other returns -- EVEN BEFORE THE FIRST VOTE HAS BEEN TAKEN!
http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm

Who developed the software that counts the votes? Remember when Clinton sent a team into Russia to help the Russians with their elections, they did it really to make sure Yeltsin got elected. This is a fact a couple of the guys were interviewed.

How do we know that the results we hear are real?

HighRise

Well done. Your observations are plain enough for anyone to see. Though their expression might fall short of yours.

Perhaps through naivete or total ignorance, I would not concede the last paragraph to you. Most here are probably aware of the Templars .... as for their modern doings, that's a different matter. ..... Wonder what a web search would turn up??

In sum, a post worth the writing.

i looked up the drudge report that Gollum had posted about the early releasing of political races by CBS? the one i know well is the alaska senate race and it projected sonneman the democrat beating mukowski the republican by 50% to 48%. there is no way in hell that sonneman will beat murkoski. at most it will be about 75 to 25 and i really expect about 80 to 20. this is one you could bet your first born on and not lose a seconds sleep. i don't know where they got those figures, but they are to the least-nuts.

Personally I hope you're right.
I too look for a 6 month dislocation of services.
And believe that Gary only sees the worst,
Of what he can picture coming.

But I also recognise the inherrent weaknesses built within our systems, And feel that they will be put fully to the test.

I wish that nought of this was to come about.
But recognise that regardless of what I think/feel/wish,
What will come about - will come.

We can sit here and do little in preparation.
And wait, watch and see.

Or take prudent conservative actions
To insulate ourselves from what may happen.
Cheap insurance for what we hold dear to our hearts.

When out at sea for many months at a time
I held a personal mantra close to my heart.
This gave me the strength and wisdom
To go forward and create my individual world.

It was:
"My family, my wife, my love, my life."

To all degrees, will I work to sanctify these expressions,
For the future benefit of those who I hold dear.

So, to sit back and wait and do little,
Because one is a non believer.
Would put what I hold dear
At total risk.
This I cannot do. Period.

Prudent, conservative, precautions are the name of the game
As we travel through this point in time.

Now let us all pray,
That it is will be nowhere as bad as some portray.

to all ..
we are the less for Rich's departure .. also for
grizz .. we should be ashamed of ourselves ..
over 50 % voted to banish a man for an inane
remark .. is this site truly populated by over 50
per cent thin skinned Nazi thought control wormheads..
.. hate crimes ?? hate speech ?? what is this cr@p??

Earl, I'm only kidding about the Templars! Those guys were wiped out by King Phillip IV ( nicked named Phillip the Fair ) of France early in the 14th century. In no way do I believe that the Templars are a conspiracy today, I just get tired about this conspiracy dung about Jews as Jews are still around and suffer from these ignorant racist idiots.

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/110298/info3_8418_body.html

------------------------------------
Euro, millennium bug cloud technology firms' future
http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/110298/info14_945_body.html
"Year 2000 and EMU phenomena will cause massive enterprise ( business ) disruption and dislocation," Gartner analyst Peter Sondergaard said in a presentation.

Gartner analyst Nick Jones said companies which responsibly had taken care of their own possible millennium computer problems might be brought down by suppliers or customers with flawed systems.

"Y2K ( year 2000 ) compliance is not just your own problem. You are vulnerable to the weakest link in your supply chain," Jones said.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/bs/story.html?s=v/nm/19981102/bs/philips_2.html

do the maths - how many to be laid off?

I promise this will be the last survey that will broach the subject of racism. The poll was placed here at the risk of creating a backlash, for which I apologize to anyone who may have taken offence. My motivation for taking this survey was the following:

Although the objective of this site is to exchange ideas regarding precious metals, the side-effect that we enjoy is the exposure that it allows to Kitcos products and services. Insufficient though to keep things viable we also need to sell advertising space where "number of hits" is the rule. It was important to get a feel for whether continuos enforcement of the "no racial slurs" netiquette rule would be likely to increase site traffic in the future. I believe the results show that it will. Richs post and the responses it invoked provided a good opportunity to conduct a small study now, even though it was a little premature.

Since I also take zero pleasure in enforcing rules like this and have little time for it anyway, we are looking into ways of having it done for us automatically by both lurkers and contributors. It would involve some prolonged programming design and implementation by some technical staff and so it was important to know beforehand whether or not the effort would be worthwhile. Making these changes is not a priority right now, but it should move up on the list relatively quickly.

So lets get back to the topic of gold. Heres a new survey to help stir up a whole different controversy...

It was not my intention to imply that preparations are unnecessary. Quite the contrary. ....... Sure wish my crystal ball wasn't so damned cloudy.

BTW, that link to the "perpetual motion" machine ( my choice of terms ) was interesting. Since I don't have a ready source of natural heat available I have been thinking of ways to utilize pretty damn cold river water in a variation on the theme. Need something that would vaporize at lower temperatures. ......A very slick source of torque nonetheless.

Farfel probably voted 100 times. Why the hell were his rights reinstated?

Where's the $30,000/oz by Friday option.

Shewwww! Am I ever relieved. ..... LOL.

In fact the last paragraph caught me by surprise since it seemed so out character to the rest of the piece.

All I know of the Templars is from Mackay's great book. ...... Answer any of Aurator's questions, correctly or incorrectly it don't matter, and he'll be glad to provide a copy. ... :- ) )

OTOH, ..... are the Templars really gone? How can you be sure???

to MJPL ..
You got that right the first time .. but watch
your back.. Badmouth Templars at your peril ..
Templars are serious ..
Jewish conspiracies are peanuts .. for reference ..
see Umberto Eco.

PS .. kills me to say this .. but I have to
agree with every word of BUGAL's recent posts.

Poll
Hits = 9
Minutes since started 10

http://gartner11.gartnerweb.com/public/static/home/00073955.html

Earl
You got that right. There's many more extrapops yet to be won....

MJPL
a Great Tail.

sharefin
away for shark & tatties
bbl

Hey this survey is kind of fun. Which is more than you can
say about whatever that other one was. I actually voted on this
one. Which is probably more than I'll do tomorrow.

This site is lot like gold in the ground. There is some quartz, some base metals, some plane old dirt. But it is a rich strike. I don't see why we have to put up with boors. I have always thought that exile was the only morally defensive response to crime. We have no right to punish another person. At least 'society' has no such right. The injured party is another matter. We have the right to say 'you don't like the rules of our society, fine go somwhere else'. In any society there will be rules. The most we can ask for is that the rules be reasonable. I think rich's post, although a technical violation, should have been ( and would have been if not for farfel ) ignored.

http://gartner11.gartnerweb.com/public/static/home/00073955.html

Forgot to add but this report is a MUST read!!!!

could'nt the power Cos turn back their clocks for 1 yr or even 5 yrs in order to give themselves enough time to test & make sure that their grids/systems will be compliant, if necessary? Embedded chips? But then are'nt the embedded chips controlled by an external clock?

I think North's letters are alarmist & really can't believe that man's ingenuity won't prevail. Unless, of course, the govt's need a diversion.

To bed--to read by candlelight.

well you wanted feedback: i think i agree with much of what you say, i think there is a bigger world out there and not easily controlled. some people always need someone to blame, but themselves, but i did have a bit of trouble following your thesis. let me begin with my thesis and work backward ( on the same subject i hope ) . the human species is only recently out of the jungle ( think, it has only been a century since we stopped debating slavery ) and the world is unfolding in an evolutionary fashion. that we do as well as we do always amazes me. in democracies our governments pretty much reflect ourselves, we just don't like to admit it. we should all do what we can to make things better, but by and large the world is going to unfold according to whatever kind of animal the human species is. you are very wrong about one thing. a person can choose not to take advantage of a situation, even if you won it fair and square. there have been many times in my life when i gave a man his money back-even in some high stakes poker games which are my passion. a man or woman can live life as they see fit, if there philosophy is developed enough. i always felt the first order of business for any person was the development of a philosophy and then use it as a guide to live by. i have spent most of my life in the hardball world of business and politics and i often give people breaks that are disadvantageous to me for no other reason than i thought it was the right thing to do.

perhaps you do it because it makes you feel good...???

Above all I've read on Y2k,

This comes to mind.
It's all in the interconnectivity of all these systems.

You know -
the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone
the ankle bone is connected to the shin bone
the shin bone is connected to the knee bone
the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone

At every level of achitecture, this is most commonplace.
And this encapsulating neural network has spread its tentacles globaly.

To be compliant when all else is not
Means that you are not compliant.

Everything is interconnected at all levels.

And the sturdy/robustness of all this interconnectivity,
Is one test that cannot be performed before the due date.

We will have to wait and see on this one.

I actually see some folks speaking of the impossible Dow 10K scenario, with some seriousness. Some of these predictions are coupled with a $250 gold figure. My but things have changed!

In July of 1997 ( Dow in the 6K range ) I called for the Dow to reach 10K by the end of 1998. When the Dow took a dump this summer all the way to the mid 7K level, and the great stock market crash was on, and indeedy bound to precede the great gold rush of 1998, I once again posted on this forum that the Dow would reach 10K.

Not because I said it would, but because it will.

I am heartened to see the Dow 10K crowd growing. US equities will continue to rise. Did we not just see a 20% correction? Is this not what one wants to see in an overbought market? 20% down, then a strong recovery? Most stock watchers would call this a very bullish scenario.

Gold will not fall to $250, soon or ever. The lows will hold and we will see them once again this year. Gold will rise substantially in the first half of 1999. Platinum will explode from these levels when it gets tired of just standing about. Silver looks strong to me. Something is up. I cannot put my finger on it exactly, so you can take this for the pure speculation that it is, but silver looks like it wants to go.

Regarding the other mess hereabouts, at least folks can see that fights break out around here when I am nowhere to be found. I voted in the survey this AM. I will not disclose my vote, but those of you who have read this site for awhile should know how I came down on this question.

Plenty of righteous talk about freedom of speech. This right is not absolute. If one slanders or libels another, they can be held accountable. Likewise for incitement to violence. A group of fellows around the poker table discussing a robbery, need not commit the robbery, for they have already conspired to do so - a crime. Can a company make unrealistic claims on a product? Can one go into a courtroom and speak as one wishes and lie? Can one spell c-o-n-t-e-m-p-t? Perhaps one could drive by the local ballpark and start calling the players pansies and girly boys, this should go over real well and endear you to the entire team. They may choose to make you their mascot; Maybe a kind of stooped and slightly limping mascot, but with free speech unmolested.

These are but a few paltry examples of the limitations of free speech. For the folks who accuse Bart of censorship, grow up. Bart has offered us the widest latitude in expressing our opinions. When fights twixt folks take up more space on this sight that its stated purpose, the sight becomes less productive, less viable. This drives away valuable contributors and lowers the standard for the entire sight.

This site is about money. How do we know it was not one of Bart's advertisers who made a complaint? Would the free speech folks considers footing the bill for lost revenue? Of will they continue to use the site that Bart has paid for to attack and dawdle on guns and ammo and endless treatises on gold as money - which all say the exact same thing, and silly baseless personal attacks one another? What if this has the result of chasing away the advertisers? What if, as a result of this, Bart decides to close this site and say "to hell with you all, I've got better ways to spend my time"?

High and holy righteousness looks good in print, but the words are shallow when spoken by a guest ( or in some cases freeloaders ) of this site. We paid not a dime to use this site, which has changed the lives of many. For those that will leave this site, because Bart has asked that some measure of decorum is shown: see ya' wouldn't want to be ya" I think you are acting childish. I say this not because I don't like the folks who may leave - in fact, I always read Squirrel's posts, and can find much to agree with contained therein. He and others will be greatly missed. I suspect that it will turn out in the end that there is no abridgement of speech, and we can be just as pugilistic as ever - this fight will be over idea's and not personalities

This site has descended into anarchy and hatred on several occasions, because a small number of rabid folks insist on pushing Bart to the limit. I asked many months ago that we police ourselves on this site. This failure to do so has brought us where we are today. What would any other have Bart do? Turn the asylum over the inmates?

I do not support instant banning, except in more egregious violations. I believe Bart has warned folks in the past that the continuance of the abhorrent behavior would bring the dreaded 404. Further violations seem to have been met by action, but action taken after a gentlemanly warning.

Many have written to me, in public and private, that they would me to get back to discussing the markets. This primary goal has been repeatedly sidelined over the last year and a half. Mucho many and indeedy a lot of hours have been spent typing words such as these. Words that speak of civility and proper behavior rather than words about the markets.

I have no judgement on the personality fracas currently running. Unless I am personally attacked, or indirectly so, when the indirect attack is obvious to any thinking person that this post was directed towards me, I want to stay out of it. I don't have the time or willing effort to crawl around in that mudhole.

Rather than confine the discussing to racism, is not the problem really one of Attacks? One attacks another's, family, race, religion, financial means, and one gleefully cavorts and grins when others loose money? If one does nothing but disrupt this forum with this childish and petulant behavior, or If one makes it a habit of occasionally attacking everything in sight, than this one is actually a zero, and should be dealt with as such. My scroll button works fine too. Why should I be forced to spend some much time using it that fully half of these pages are easy to skip without skipping a vital detail?

Many posters here have much to say. Some have zero to say, but insist on gulping and puffing and howdying and shooting and endless discussions on how corrupt the world is, but never a mention that the world, as a whole, is working and getting along better today than at any point in human history. Some of the endless droners have jumped on the "I'm gonna' leave" bandwagon. I will not miss some of these folks. Others, who are voices of reason, and wish to discuss markets, will stay. Thus the undesirables and the too timid are weeded out, not by force, but by volunteerism.

Bart has always been fair, sometimes exceedingly so. Rather than bitch about how wrong he is, how about some appreciation that the site is here at all?

If those who attack are put in their place by the Kitco masses or, if Bart throws them off the site, these attacks will cease. Witness one of our most even tempered and valuable posters, Sharefin. I read some words of his this PM that truly has shown that this has gone too far. As even tempered and easy to get along with, The Fin who Shares Much Indeedy, was heard to utter a condemnation to another poster. That this was addressed to a particular poster ( which I have had my troubles with ) is not my focus here. This little essay speaks of those who attack in general and repeatedly, and is not limited to just a poster or three.


The following excerpts - taken out of context to be sure - are from a pretty cool speech a pretty cool guy made back in 1963. While the original subject of the speech is very germane to this day's goings on, I stripped out a few thoughts that seem to fit Kitco and the world in a much broader sense. On the page, the words have meaning, but when spoken by a man who believes in his own self worth, the words are daggers to the heart. Anyway..

From This Guy's Speech:

I am happy today to join with you today
In what will go down in history
As the greatest demonstration for freedom
In the history of our nation...

So we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition

. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment

In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must rather conduct our struggle on the high plains of dignity and discipline.

 I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations

You have been the veterans of creative suffering Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive


Anybody remember who this guy was?

OK

Hope you are still lurking.

OK guys/gals. We all say dumb things sometimes. I am well ahead of all of you in the 'dumb' stakes. Rich--your 'joke', while in bad taste, was not the end of the world. I have said many things tongue in cheek on this forum and had some extremely nasty replies. The problem, on the internet, is that one cannot see the tongue in your cheek. If you have not read a book called 'Body Language' by Allan Pease, get it and do so.

A large part of our communication is in our facial and other expressions. I have insulted just about everone on this forum at one time or another. If they were sitting here next to me they would be laughing so hard I would have to call the paramedics.

Ease up guys/gals. We are here to share information and ideas. Egos are always going to get involved. Kitco is a microcosm of society. There will always be friction. Those that consistently break the rules of our 'society' will be ridiculed by the others. If ridicule does not stop abusive/racist/derogatory posts, then Bart would and should pull the plug.

I hope you guys/gals take a short break and then come back. You have all contributed much to this forum. Squirrel--you have helped me with my storage of nuts ( no irreverent comments please ) . Grizz--you have confirmed me in my contraryness ( to coin a word ) .Your posts have been the salt of the earth. Rich--I understood what you meant. Not delicately said--but an inkling of truth.

I suggest that anyone insulting another of different race, creed or colour, think again before you post. Unless of course it is about Kiwis or Scots, in which case you may go ahead.

Cheers, Nick@C

Well Mole, I submit this piece every now and again when antisemitism raises it's ugly head, about every 6 months or so, I suspect I'll have to submit it again in the future. I understand your feelings about not being to abusive in the markets when a killing is in your favor BUT your giving back your profits to the loser was voluntary and with the understanding on your part that the kindness would probably not be returned if the tables were turned. Your a good man Mole!

To John Disney: my official position is that the Templars are gone. I could tell you more but then I would have to kill you and thus depriving me of a lot of good investment advice. So there you have it, the Templars have ceased to exist since the 14th century and any one else who questions that is a fool and I need to locate his address pronto to assist in removing any questions concerning the Order from his mind. John, just where can some of the brothers reach you for a counseling session any ways? Ah shucks, don't worry we already know!

sometimes, but often it does not make me feel good, because i don't want to give it up. i do it because it is right. the human species is capable of thinking.

Bart
When I think of what you have created at kitco I am lost for words, most unusual for mois, to have nothing to say. Thank you for creating this little sane waterhole in a crazy, crazy woild.

I return here often to sup at the refreshing pools of THOUGHTS of OTHERS. The_sages@Pagesdotkitco.

merci

Better_@than_Evian_waterator

Limey
I was able to finally tilt the supply/demand ratio of Pt significantly today. For the first time in NZ I found a Pt coin......
 would call it a twinky. A beautiful 1/10 oz koala. If Pandas are too rare, Precious Jewel will wear a koala come her birthday, Indeedy.
My jeweler friend will handmake a Pt Bezel to caress the teenie tiny koalas a-snuggling in the warmth by her heart.
Salty

( Now I'm gonna read wot U wrote )

LGB you really should do something about the grocer's apostrophe appearing willy-nilly around your post's.

RJ -- Long-winded, but quite apt!

This is a METALS forum, in basis. The etiquette guidelines are meant to basically keep it that way. The question of 'free-speech' does not need to enter into it beyond that. For anyone who doesn't like that 'limitation', go to another site to voice your other thoughts, or form your own web site. 'Nuff said...

James -- Re: Y2K; Hope for the best but plan for the worst. It's only insurance that you can still eat and drink, etc, etc. Can't go wrong unless you go without.

Limey
Yeah, I know who said that, and where. But it's a question for your compatriots, and I shall leave his name unspoke fo them.

Ain't there another full moon a-comming? Funny how this place seems to fall apart at the full-moon. BTW, as I like playing Devil's advocate, I can make an argument, from Peutz' earlier thesis on full moons and eclipses, that this full moon is the apocalyptic one. In other words, ( not Mr Peutz', but aurator's ) that, using a formula of Peutz...THIS is the full moon to worry about. All the others have been red herrings....therefore..."the shadow Peutz" could say that Friday's gonna be the beginning of the great melt down.

I don't believe a word of it. eh?
salty

About six months ago I called the Perth Mint and asked them to send me 10 x platinum one oz coins. They replied, "We haven't got that many"!!!!Well, these are the guys that breed the little squirts, and they didn't have any. I was most insulted and complained. They took all of their 'display' samples and filled my order.

Only problem is that I was 6 months early. RJ--what happened to "...plat is a definite buy at 406"!!! BTW--you don't write encyclopedias in your spare time, do you mate?? Now RJ-- my tongue is in my cheek---OK???? Indeedy!!

Auracious--how does it feel to be the 'Fort Knox' of Nude Zeeland??? Just because two of your horses came first and second in the Melbourne Cup today--don't get cocky!! I hear you train your horses by trying to beat you guys to the sheep!!??

Now, whom haven't I insulted today. JD--what does your dog think about the POG???

Nick@
Very true. Kiwi horses came in 1st & 2nd in Australasia's biggest horse race, The Melbourne Cup today. However, you have not quite got the NZ horse training method understood. It's just that in certain parts of the country, there are no sheep only horses, and very fast farmers .... ( the rest is top secret )

For Mon 02 Nov calculated from data published in today's FT.
GOLD------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
LIBOR--------------5.25--------------5.25--------------5.06----------------4.84
MGLR--------------4.67---------------4.01-------------3.65-----------------3.08
Gold Lease Rate---0.58---------------1.24-------------1.41-----------------1.76
( Change ) ---- ( 0.00 ) -------- ( - 0.03 ) ------- ( - 0.03 ) ----------- ( + 0.05 )

SILVER----------1- month--------3- month-------6- month----------12- month
LIBOR---------------5.25--------------5.25--------------5.06-----------------4.84
Silver Lend Rate----3.20--------------2.40--------------1.50-----------------1.25
Silver Lease Rate---2.05--------------2.85--------------3.56-----------------3.59
( Change ) ------ ( 0.00 ) -------- ( + 0.03 ) ------- ( + 0.29 ) ----------- ( + 0.24 )
Lease Rate equals LIBOR minus Lending Rate
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild .
The lines labelled ( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.

...spot gold will finish on December 31, 1999???

a ) $40,000--$50,000
b ) $30,000--$39,999
c ) $20,000--$29,999
d ) $10,000--$19,999
e ) I'm on the wrong site!!

First prize is New York.

Nick@GallupPoll
I think you may have missed your calling, Nicko, but you missed out the most important option

( e ) how do you feel about the POG?

Hands across the water
### across the sea

Did you see how the winning horses' owners made a betting splurge on the market. Made squillions. They KNEW their horses were faster. Says a lot about noo zeeland training methods. Also beats betting on that yeller stuff--what's it called??

Dec. gold is down 10 cents and is headed to mid 280's. I shall be pleased to be wrong.

Now--more important things. Where is nickel going from here??

http://www.dbc.com/cgi-bin/htx.exe/dbcfiles/curcommt.html?SOURCE=core/europe

down 3.77% ( at this time ) .

http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=%5Ejgai&d=v1

Hi, antipodeans. Should have warned you yesterday, me, the contraindicator went long AU yesterday, cause of Saddam rattling with his sabre, a French officer untarnished as a spy for Milosevic, Germanys new govt playing the old fullemployment game ( with an echo out of the austrian mountains ) and them merkans electing new staff - with the well-known-outcome of Gold heading south.
Should waste my money on more durable goods than gold. Shares??

Those South Africans are doing the dive again today - down 3%+ to 960. How much further are you going to let it drop befoe you start your support manipulations????

RJ - gosh I find myself agreeing with him. - DOW 10,000 on a crazed liquidity driven craziness ( before gold $315 ) , a rush in Platinum and an unnerving strenght in silver though the 1.2 million increase in Comex stocks should knock out some longs today and is with London now below $5 off 5-6cents.

The only one that is working for me is my PD and PT play, but I'm watching my gut indicator - its getting to the "this stuff will never go up again - forget about it stage." Two more days until a rally based on that indicator but price must fall two more days for the rench to be valid.

I have also noticed after a year of reading and participating on this board that when the food fights are at their heights the gold market bottoms.. That is too logical - back to the gutt indicator - it says hold off purchases as in my form its about to upchuck with distaste for the metals - a sure buy signal.

Fred
Greetings, brother. You are, of course, antipodean to us. Although I do see a lower low ahead, I am not nearly so smart as these chartists and tea-leaf readers. They see patterns where I see chaos, they see wedges where I see splotches. Most of all, they see "support at US$2XX.00 unless it fails, when there is another support at US$2YY.00.
It's like a bet "each way" on a horse race. One is right, unless one is wrong. If it's any comfort, I bought a set of Proof Australian Nuggets today too.

We shall watch gold go down the drain together, yes?

23:00, thereabouts...hereabouts
ennivrons-nous!
While we still have the ens....

shorts forming a wedge................ yeeeeeoooooooowwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gold at 40,000-50,000? Nobody would be so
nutty as to vote for that! I vote for c.

and the "nouse"


Fred, "nouse" is a colloquiallism for 'wisdom/street sense/cunning'

Auric
If Nick@C's option "C" is on the money, well then, Nick is right. I'll own the Reserve Bank of Nood Silund. My fleet of Ferraris will be at your disposal....

Oh yes, nouse, I know.
Like Nicky Nouse!

"We've arranged a society based on science and technology.
But the population knows very little about science. This
combustible mixture of power and ignorance is a frightening
recipe for disaster."
- Carl Sagan ( The Charlie Rose; 27 May, 1996 )

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Observe that for the programmer, as for the chef, the
urgency of the patron may govern the scheduled completion
of the task, but it cannot govern the actual completion.
An omelette, promised in two minutes, may appear to be
progressing nicely. But when it has not set in two
minutes, the customer has two choices -- wait or eat
it raw. Software customers have had the same choices."
- Frederick P. Brooks, Jr, _The Mythical Man-Month_

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Computer Science is no more about computers than
astronomy is about telescopes."
- E. W. Dijkstra

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We call them Twinkies. You've seen them on television
acting the news, modeling and fracturing the news while
you wonder whether they've read the news or if they've
blow-dried their brains, too."
- Linda Ellerbee

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There never has been, nor will there ever be, any
programming language in which it is the least bit
difficult to write bad code."
- Lawrence Flon

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation,
and is thus a source of civilized delight."
- William Safire

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As part of the conversion, computer specialists rewrote
1,500 programs -- a process that traditionally requires
some debugging."
( USA Today, referring to the IRS switchover to a new
computer system. )

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"God himself could not sink this ship."
- Anonymous Titanic Deck Hand

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People who are incapable of making decisions are
the ones who hit those barrels at freeway exits."
- unknown

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
-- Isaac Asimov, "Foundation"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to
go from here?" "That depends a good deal on where
you want to get to," said the Cat.
-- Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking-Glass"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Barring human error, man will always be better than the
machine at chess."
-World chess champion Garry Kasparov,
shortly before losing to Deep Blue

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1958

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who
cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn,
unlearn, and relearn. "
- Alvin Toffler

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's worse than that. He's dead Jim!"
-- McCoy. ( Star Trek )

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them."
-- Isaac Asimov

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The nice thing about standards is that there are
so many of them to choose from."
-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio, replied:
"You see, telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat:
You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing
in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? Radio operates
exactly the same way: you send signals here, they
receive them there. The only difference is that there
is no cat."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote
programs, then the first woodpecker that came along
would destroy civilization."
-- Gerald Weinberg, "The Psychology of Computer Programming"

------------------------------------------------------------------------
And there's more at:
Food For Thought ( Quotations )
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000DPk

Fred@Vienna
What joy you must bring to those around you!
As fast as a leonid meteor, you seize a meaning in a foreign tongue, play with the rhyme and encourage my smile in a faraway land.

It is the fruit of Bart's largesse.

namast.

How about a Rolls Royce made of 24k Gold? You know, like the one owned by Goldfinger, that great and good man.

Auric
Gold Rolls sounds more apt, indeedy. But what shall be her name?

I was wondering recently about Goldfinger, again. What's your favourite gold quote from that movie?

read this not for clarity..................ohh myyyyy
China warns Dalai Lama to keep quiet

China has warned the Dalai Lama to keep quiet over growing contacts with its government which could result in political talks over the future of Tibet.

A Foreign Ministry spokesman, Zhu Bangzao, said contacts and talks between the central government and the Dalai Lama are entirely an internal affair.
The speaker of the exiled Tibetan parliament, Samdhong Rinpoche, said that the Dalai Lama was preparing to make a statement on the political status of Tibet during a visit to the United States which begins tomorrow.

He said the statement would contain "major concessions" to which the government-in-exile would be seeking a reciprocal response from Beijing.

While renouncing the cause of full independence for Tibet, Mr Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama would be seeking a "high degree" of autonomy, and not just for the area currently defined as Tibet by the Chinese government.

aura
Youve got me completely wrong, mate! I was only trying to insult Nikos Canabeerakis!

Though: Thanx for the roses.

"I am for anything which increases my Gold assets, which are considerable."

Fred@Vienna
au contraire, Baudelaire, I have underestimated you. You managed all that I said AND a swipe at my favourite stralian.
Namast

Bowing deeply to a Master of Wordsl

Fred I did not realise that you have lost Vienna from your handle. Is everything alright? Is the Danube still blue? Does the Vienna wood?

Auric
Excellent! Others? Anyone?

got roller, .........got small dick......yeh.
got gold............got brains..................

Hedgehog
Amigo. If you want humans to understand your last post, you will have to translate from Hedgerow ( the official language of Russels in the ... ) into Ingrish. Some sort of Ingrish,, Merkan, knadian, stralian,. Heck! Any sort of Ingrish...

"I suggest you choose your next witticism carefully, Mr. Bond. It may be your last."

You are from Austria? G'day mate! Put another shrimp on the barbie.

( Rich, Grizz, James, Petronious, Tantalus Rex )

1. They say that " Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". So is the perception of the world around us.
Rich -Rather than derogatively alluding to the high proportion of Jews working with Clinton, you could have alluded to it with praise. But you prefer to see this phenomenon negatively. Moreover, if you are 'half-Jewish", this means that you are half something else. So why did you choose your Jewish half 'in jest' and not the other half?

2. Grizz, James Petronious - I really can't blame you for your reaction because it is based on lack of knowledge ( as Jesus said - "Forgive them for they know not what they do"!! ) .

The high level of Jewish sensitivity is the direct result of 2000 year history of persecution, genocide and oppression - inflicted mainly by Christians.

3. Tantalus Rex is right that there are many Jewish-Americans who have prominent positions in American life and therefore have crucial influence. However, Tantalus Rex does not see them as Americans but rather as Jews, and therefore he writes "Jews control much of America".

Tantalus Rex, it is not Jews who control much of US policy and economics, it is Americans . These policies are controlled by Americans who happen to be Jewish and who have prominent positions in government. You do not differentiate between their national identity and their religious identity and conclude therefore that they are acting as Jews, where in fact they are acting as Americans.

In respect to control - I don't know who "controls" America. If you ask 5000 people, you will get 5000 answers. I think you should ask yourself why you think it is Jews. Why not WASPs!!!???

Furthermore, Jewish prominence in every aspect of life in Europe constituted one of the reasons, and justifications, for political anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust. So, yes, we are very, very, very sensitive when people, even half-Jews, remark on the prominence of Jews in politics.

It is true that other peoples suffered under Hitler, but the Jews and the Gypsies were the only peoples targeted for total and complete annihilation. Hitler's war efforts were subordinated to his determination to eliminate every single Jewish soul in the world. Their conversion to Christianity did not absolve them from the cardinal sin of being Jewish ( Just recently the Pope canonized Edith Stein, a nun who had converted to Catholicism but died in a Nazi concentration camp ) .

4. The Anti-defamation League monitors anti-semitic acts in the USA because there are still gangs and individuals who burn down synagogues and beat up Jews. The extreme right in the USA is not only against the American government and afro-Americans. They are also anti-Semites. They are not anti Russians, anti-red-necks, anti-Italians, anti-Greeks, anti-Indians, anti-Austrialians, anti-Germans etc. They are anti- Jews!!!

Do you know that Synagogues, all over the world, have guards to protect worshippers? Do churches and mosques have to be protected from terrorist acts? Just two weeks ago three Jews were murdered while praying in a synagogue in Bagdad.

So, Petronious, what are 'sane' Jews?? The situation of the Jews, as long as they have lived in Christian societies, has been analogous to that of the battered wife - if you are being beaten up, villified, murdered - it must be your fault. You must have done something wrong and therefore you "deserve" everything you get. Jews did not protest but rather have always turned the other cheek - which was always slapped again. This was considered the ' sane' reaction. Today Jews protest at anti-semitic remarks, jokes and acts. Although there are those who 'don't understand" their sensitivity, it is better not to be 'sane' and to protest, rather than to be 'sane' and submissive.

5. Yes, there are "good Jews" and "bad Jews", just like in any other population or for that matter in any group of more than 3 people.
We Jews tell anti-Semitic jokes about ourselves all the time. It isn't the words - it is the music!!

6. Ariel Sharon - The epithet "buther" was stuck to Sharon after the Sabra and Shatila massacres in Lebanon in 1982. Sharon was not to blame for any massacre but rather for preventing one. When the Israel army was in Lebanon the Lebanese army demanded that the Israeli army, who surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps, allow them to enter the camps. Sharon's sin was that the Israeli army let the Lebanese army into these Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and did not forsee that they would massacre about 380 of the residents. For this sin he was forced to retire.

Was the American Minister of Defense culpable in the Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam? Was he forced to retire? Was anyone in the American government found guilty for the USA army's complicity in the downfall of Noradom Sihanook in Cambodia and the takeover by Pol Fot - who massacred more than a million Cambodians?

7. People have a right to their opinions, as long as they are able to recognise that these opinions are prejudices rather than opinions based on, as much as possible, objective facts. The freedom of speech is one of the basic principles of Democracy, but, as Charleston Heston put it, you can not shout 'fire' in a crowded theater.

8. Finally, to get back to gold, ( and with a tongue in cheek ) - If the Holy Temple was rebuilt, the price of gold would soar. If you read Kings I, chapter 6 verses 21-22 you will find that the entire Temple inside was covered with gold!!

...while I was gone?? Now where is my book of Austrian jokes?? Probably not a bad place. Just short of an 'al'. Be glad you don't live in Indiana.

Now where are those netiquette guidelines??
........................................
Gold up 10 cents. Silver looking sick.
http://www.dbc.com/cgi-bin/htx.exe/dbcfiles/curcommt.html?SOURCE=core/europe

aura
Vienna lost?? Mois?
Danube not blue ( same as it ever was ) , Vienna woods in great colours right now.

auric
Me austria, yes. As a matter of ethnocentrism we use Wiener Wrstchen. ( which we call "Frankfurter", as they were invented by a Mr. Wiener, a genious butcher who came from Frankfurt ( or was it the other way round?? ) ) .

looks like nasty royal business gettin its knickers all tied up.............I vote
Charles for treason..............ah yeh ....... BRITISH POONCE...........

when your pooch walks home with your neighbours turd............you indeed live in a community........and lovin it...........

http://www.securitytrader.com/precmetals.htm

daily turning points at 11/7, 11/18
weekly turning point at 11/20.....this should be an important chart point

http://tiger.golden.net/laird/TimeXAU.htm

Time magazine reports the American space agency... the NAZIs are planning two missions to explore Mars.

The missions, intended for launch in November and December, are designed to map the planet and land a six-wheeled robot.

The missions have taken on more importance since the NAZIs claimed primitive life could have existed on Mars.

Russia is also expected to land instruments and dig below the surface of the planet

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000E7H
In the sports days of yesteryear, a player or fan who would talk too much about what might happen in the next game was reminded that "Nothing happens until the fat lady sings";

---
Northwest PUC notes
Read the conclusion.
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000E5K

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_206000/206312.stm

that fat lady is definitely warming up

special interest, foreign investors, & lobbyist the most important aspect of today is not who or what you vote for as much as it is that you do vote and your opinion is added to the count!

ABM wrote: "So, Petronious, what are 'sane' Jews?? "

I hate to keep beating on this subject, but since you asked:

1. A sane Jew is somebody who does not look for an enemy behind every tree. If you do look for an enemy behind every tree ( or better yet call everybody you have found behind a tree an enemy ) you will eventually have an enemy.

2. A sane Jew is somebody who respects the place they live at. Unfortunately, the majority of the American Jewish population ( in spite of what you try to push in your message ) believes their loyalty is to Israel first ( no matter how crazy its policies ) and to America second. The Pollard issue was and is the most indicative of this situation.

3. A sane Jew is somebody who at least tries to look at the world one day of a year without the Semitic glasses on. You say that the Jewish problem is special ( maybe you are SPECIAL!? ) because no other group has ever been targeted for complete annihilation by a government. Ever heard of Armenians? Or do you know about Kurds? Doesn't explicit Israeli ban on anybody but "Hebrew Nationals" to be judges or other high officials smack of Nazi-like policies? As we write our BS here the Turkish government ( with active help of US and Israel ) systematically murders Kurdish population. So far they succeeded in wiping out mere 37,000+ Kurds. ( How does that compare to say 800 Albanians murdered by the Serbs ) . The reason nobody does anything about it ( rather than help in the slaughter ) is because Turkey just happens to be US's and Israeli' ally in the region.

4. A sane Jew sees the "Shindler's List" as the most anti-Semitic movie ever made. One of the old Europe's anti-Semitic beliefs is that a Jew is a guy who, when ordered by government to show up at a concentration-camp round-up, will do so promptly and without questioning. Unfortunately, the American Jewish majority, is almost unilaterally for such oldies-but-goodies as gun control, political correctness==destruction of the First Ammendment, the very fallacies that made fascism and many other totalitarian government massacres possible. Please, please, please do read what the "Jews For The Preservation Of Firearms Ownership" http://www.jpfo.org/ have to say on these subjects. If you can take your blinders off for a second, see what they have to say on the subject of ADL. ( Or is Rabbi R. Mermelstein, or Aaron Zelman one of these Nazi provocateurs who grew orthodox-Jewish beards just to create division in the Jewish community?! ) Assuming that the current US government is on the Jewish side and therefore it is OK to can the Bill of Rights will not make Jews dear to Americans.

5. Finally, a sane Jew will give those of other racial and religious backgrounds the same rights and privilidges as he expects for himself.

Did it make it clear?!

If xau hits 68-69 today I'm a buyer.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a363e4ac3158a.htm

Darkness at Noon: Citizen Clinton and Citizen Rubashov
http://www.prime-web.com/grape/rubashov.htm

Online chat with Bennett
http://www.sltrib.com/tribtalk/vote98/bennettchat.htm

Petronius - You state: "...I hate to keep beating on this subject...", So Please Don't! Give it up. EVERYBODY. This is a precious metals forum. There are are talk sites where you may waste your entire day ( life ) convincing the whole world the ins and outs of your various political, ( I know, from time to time I've been a little quilty along with the rest, but it IS getting ridiculous around here - I repent ;-0 ) , and religious beliefs. Take it elsewhere or take it private via e-mail. Give us a break around here EVERYBODY and stick closer to the topics at hand. A little banter OK. Mucho Politics, Religion Etc. - take it to the nearest streetcorner or rooftop - Give Kitco a break!

Thanks for your latest projections re: gold and the Dow! For my money you are the best forecaster on this thread, bar none. I wish I had listened to you more often.

Well put! I second the motion. Now that motion is passed, will the children who don't know how to play nice please shut up.

http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm

08:05 WORLD STOCK MARKETS MOSTLY HIGHER TUESDAY.

This in anticipation of foreign rate cuts. Which in turn will pressure US bond prices as previously accumulated flight money goes home to await the cuts. Especially since US economy is looking strong enough to lower the expectations for further US cuts.

The dollar has come back up a little overnight as Japanes markets were closed for a holiday.

Thin overnight metals markets have made it easier for the shorts to bring metals prices down.

The action as NY opens will be of great interest.

I like the gold price poll. Now, if I could only be, 'correct' :- ) ) I guess that implies that I would have to bet 'correctly' to. :- ) )

Imagine the hue and cry is actual election results come out and match the ABC ones.

I wonder if we could obtain next months gold and silver charts from ABC?

The spring is being wound tighter.

gcg8 = $289.70

Suggested here long ago by myself and others I am sure the surveys will turn out to be a useful and varied tool.
The advent of it, though, has caused a stir much like when the sherrif first walks into the saloon of a wild western ( circa 1880 ) town. I will picture Bart hereafter dressed in Golden buckskins, with a Silver star upon his chest, a brace of gleaming Platinum Colts upon his hips, loaded with Golden bullets. Some of the townsfolk look up in hope, others turn from from their redeye whiskey to stare upon the new sherrif with derision, plotting his bushwacking upon their first glimpse.
The Wild West analogy does seem apropos at Kitco sometimes ( Grin ) .

A certain amount of order and decorum is required for free speech to function. At least one level above the law of claw and fang of the jungle. I know Bart does not want to be Sherrif of Kitco. But personally, "trial" by survey of my goldbug peers I fear not, there being many good, wise and gentle souls here among the chaff.

So I say Bravo Bart! Let us see what your latest child shall grow to be!

http://www.afr.com.au/content/981102/inform/inform2.html

Mr Littlejohn's comments came as he prepared to retire from BHP after a career that began in 1966 when he joined the company as a computer programmer.

He became senior information systems executive in 1985 and was instrumental in forming BHP Information Technology.

Mr Littlejohn said he would continue to work after leaving BHP on January 31, but would spend more time at the golf course.

"My golf definitely needs some work," he said.

I don't see any bleeding heart conservatiive bankers rushing to aid Nicaragua or Honduras in there moment of need - If the disaster was on the financial level they would be there promptly with taxpeyers funds to bail out there friends - but since its on the human level its of no consequence - however since the banana plantations were destroyed perhaps they can find a way to compensate the owners for there losses. - cjk -

http://www.abcnews.com/wire/Business/Reuters19981103_3039.html

It is a sad commentary that, yes our
system is currently configured to
perpetuate the dominance of powerful
financial interests at the expense of the
US taxpayer. This system will work
as long as their is easy credit for
personal loans and the stock market
bubble continues and no one actually has to
pay for the bailouts through taxes
or budget cuts. The loans are book
entry and an added liability to the US taxpayer.
If the US loans are ever called, the
jig will be up. In days of yore, one
had to have collateral to borrow money
such as gold.

http://www.abcnews.com/wire/Business/Reuters19981103_2985.html

FWIW Today gold has squared time and price,we 'll see

http://www.oregontrail.net/~mmontagne/mcfadden.html

The Federal Reserve "Cartel"
http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/fwiw/fwiw0075.txt>http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/fwiw/fwiw0075.txt

The CONSERVATIVE Corner
http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/

http://www.parascope.com/mx/fed06.htm

FWIW look for Plat to stay above 340

your take on NEM yesterday and possible moves today? thanks

FWIW.NEM will have a first hour weakness,buy point is between
20 5/8 and 20 3/4,with a stop 20 3/8.Upside target 21 1/2 ,22

Sold all my Drooy and GSR last Friday...whew...

Looking for another entry point...how low can it go?

What I know about specialist activities from a specialist is- they are both short and long a variety of the stocks traded at their posts. The BIG factor is they have "unlimited" credit. It's like a seesaw, they ride the side that is indicated by the book. When the go exceptionally short on balance, I have found it's a good idea to pay attention.

FWIW Not many weak hands left in NEM.Buying Hgmcy below 4 3/4
and Sgoly below 3 is a gift.

With the price of gold below $289 at the open, I was bracing myself for a much sharper selloff in the gold mining stocks, but they don't look all that bad really.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Walt

FYI ANZEX has been halted pending news on their platinum drilling
in New Zealand

I moved a year ago and mail sent to my old address comes to me several weeks later. Yesterday I received a report from Martin Weiss mailed in early October. The title:

GLOBAL STOCK MARKET PANIC UNFOLDING EXACTLY AS I SAID IT WOULD.

In the body of the report he was projecting another 3000 points down.

What a difference a few weeks makes!

The Toronto Mining Issue McClellan Summation Index has turned up and is now rising. This move is not yet with much conviction ( much like the decline of the last two weeks ) , but is a sign of good breadth under the surface of the market. This is a slight positive short term.

The new lows on Toronto mining issues remain at low levels. They have come in at the benchmark level of 5 or less issues per day on 7 of the last 10 days. On the other days, they came in at 6 twice and at 7 on the other day. This is another sign of good breadth. Positive.

The 200 day MA of gold is at 294.46 and is flat. We are on the wrong side of this one. This is a crack in the armour.

The 220 day MA of Toronto Golds is at 6338 and rising. We are on the good side of this measurement. ( ^TGL on Yahoo quotes )

The stop loss trendline on Toronto golds,that rises at 2% weekly from the last major low is at 5052 this week. This has served well as a safety level in the past.

I expect 1998 to be a good year for gold shares, but we may have an interesting two months getting there. I am fully invested here, but will begin to do some selling if we get below 6300 on the Toronto Gold Index, or around 70 on the XAU.

Walt,

Gold stocks are ultimately tied to the price of gold. They think they are free of the influence from gold, but only as long as gold lets them run out the string. Time after time, gold stocks also overcorrect to the downside. This is the time to buy. Watch the relationship between XAU and Spot AU. Donald's XAU:Spot Gold ratio is a practical indicator of this condition.

of 289.10. It's currently at 289.80 Fox-man

I have gold at $289.15 and the XAU at 73.74.

got vows?

Low 72.56
High 73.97
Last 73.63
Time 10:21

Walt I too can't understand the strength of the XAU, it is at the same level it was back on Oct 28th when spot gold was $293. Either someone knows something we don't or the XAU is set to fall.

I got out of half of my gold funds at the 10am price expecting a fall. I have found that it is much safer to play the current up's and down's rather than to stay put. I am ready and waiting to head back in if it looks like gold is headed back to the $300 level.

Thanx, Sig.

Is there a web site where I can track the XAU/Gold Spot ratio?
Appreciate your help!
Walt

The XAU may be holding steady but Fidelity's gold funds were down at the 10am price...Select Gold down 1.21% and Prescious Metals down 1.68%.

Comparing the rather minimal price movement in POG in the last two months with the volatile and yet sometimes VERY healthy percentage gains that the gold mining stocks have experienced I would have to conclude that the Gold Stocks are presaging a significant turn around in POG in the near future. In other words, Hold All Bets, Ladies and Gentlemen!

If palladium reaches or surpasses gold in price, is that any sort of
buy or sell signal? Still hoping for gold and platinum to merge as
a final buy signal for platinum.

Congratulations and good luck to EB.

Get your Impeach Clintler Bumper stickers now:

http://www.impeachclinton.org/

Also subscribe to Spotlight also:

http://www.spotlight.com

http://goldsheet.simplenet.com/ratio.htm

or for near-realtime use the December contract and enter into the symbols block

XAU.X /GCZ8 ( put a space before the / ) in this site

http://fast.quote.com/fq/quotecom/livechart?mode?symbols=

is this real or has he found a full time caddy? Either way I agree...and congratulations are in order...yup...uh huh...

got rice...

or should we throw sovereigns?

FWIW.....To see what a key reversal looks like----Look at the XAU chart of the last three hours..If current price holds into the close,
this is the second buy signal in the last 7 days.

I admit I have been very tempted to get out of my long positions during the past couple of days, but I'm still hanging in. Bloomberg just flashed the comment on gold on their screen: Gold is at a 2 week low as investor's confidence returned ( or something to that effect ) .

Well, I just don't believe it. It goes against logic. Logic tells me we are in a bear market rally and not in a return to the good old bull days.
Walt

Correct one is:

http://spotlight.org/

Non plaudite. Modo aurum jacite.
( Don't applaud. Just throw gold. )

Thanks for the link, silverbaron. I appreciate it.


Walt

Dow is struggling. Down 14 points.

Walt,

All you need to do to calculate xau:gold ratio is divide the current quoted XAU by the current quoted spot gold price. Example 73.53/288.50 =.254. My guess in this case is a confirmation of what you are seeing. The price of equities is too far above the price of gold, and a downside correction of the xau component stocks is in order. As you might agree, gold stocks have been in decline for the past 12/18 months, and the xau has been very weak. In normal times [what ever that is] the ratio would be in balance at .296. By that I mean the price of gold and the price per share of the XAU are at parity. This is still true, but in a sick market like now .254 is too high and will fall given the direction of spot gold. Just prior to the the last run up in the price of spot gold from mid 270s to the 290/300 range of today, the ratio fell below .200. Had you bought NEM or ABX or ASA [XAU index stocks] you would still have some profit built in, but now the pressure is on for gold to rise back above $300, and I don't think that's in the cards short term. Currently, .254 ratio now is a sell signal for traders to lock in profits. Gold stocks are trading vehicles and no more. It all depends on timing...very difficult to predict. All this is my HO.

I find it quite amusing in light of the last days' worth of discussion that you have selected the "Spotlight" in your repetoire of reading material. I suggest everyone read their articles and see who sees who behind every tree...

FWIW Plat will give the verdict today

the gold eh...good choice...level headed as usual you be...the next 8 days should be VERY interesting to say the least with regards to the markets and what is happening to real money...gold and silver...

What's special about the next 8 days? Am I missing something?

I bet he will come off correct if we wait a bit more. A couple of weeks or even a month or two early is not such a big deal in the light of the fact that this bull has been going on strongly for years. Do you really think all is completely OK with the world and the market is still on the way way way up?

xau even on day,very surprised.

General: As any intelligent army officer would know, the "spotlight" illuminates garbage.

Sig,
thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.
Walt

At 10:41 I posted that the XAU had made a key reversal this morning. If the price holds and it does not go lower,it is set to LEAP upward. It bears watching as it will tell us the direction of gold before gold will.
Time is running out, decision time is very close. FWIW.
CoBra

: )

pivotal...the Internet will have a tremendous effect on the elections IMO...within that thought I think that many on the Internet will vote Republican and or against Clintler...the vast majority of computer owners and therefore individuals that are connected to the Internet are not great supporters of big government...I believe that the results will be gravely different than what we are being told...if it turns out that there is a massive landslide by the Republicans I expect the markets to turn down...the impeachment hearings to turn way up...

and as we all know there is no reason to prop up the markets at this political juncture...In The Great Reckoning Lord Rees-Mogg and James Dale Davidson say the Democrats will lose the White House for 25 years in 2000...although many here have chastised the book and the predictions contained therein...I believe they are on the mark in many ways...

I see major turmoil as Clintler feels the heat getting hotter and hotter and there is no telling what this maniac will do to try and stay in power...

This election will not only affect the US but will have serious impact on how the rest of the world views the US and the safety of investing here...while Americans are smug in their belief in the almighty dollar and the it could never happen here thinking process the rest of the globe in stark contrast has a far different view...

I have run across a good publisher of Wall Street material historical and current. If you are not familiar, here's the 800 253 0900. I found stuff there that I rarely found in the library or inter-library loan. It's Fraser Publishing.

Best assessment so far. Human nature does not change, just the perception of it. Charlie

I would not use the XAU/Gold ratio blindly as it is not a constant ratio. Keep in mind that the XAU components are growing in value over time. Recently ABX and PDG, almost 60% of the XAU, announced surprisingly good quarterly results with much better operations and therefore lower costs. This is not a temporary situation. Don't be surprised if the XAU is stronger now.

For those Kitcoists who invest in gold funds, Eaglewing Research produces a page which compares 31 funds and provides direct links to most fund pages with charts, info, etc.

http://www.eaglewing.com

OEX has given a multiday sell signal.
The stop is 444.

Very,very Froggy NYMEX Plat up $ 3.70

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981103/n3.html

right shoulder forming on gold per Cliff Droke...

Stop should read 544 : )

// -- COMMENTARY -- //

In our last issue on 10/19 we were nervous bulls. Our model had
just jumped back into the market with both feet. The market was
looking strong, but it was overbought on a short term basis.
This issue has us feeling remarkably similar, albeit with more
confidence in our bullish posture.

The bigger indexes ( SP500, DJIA, NYSE Composite ) spent the
better part of the last two weeks going sideways, trading in a
relatively tight range. However, while the big indexes were
spinning their wheels and going sideways, the NASDAQ and the
Russell 2000 continued to move higher. This broadening out of
the rally is something we did NOT see when the market rallied in
September. Friday was a strong day, with all the indexes closing

at reaction highs ( reaction highs = new highs since the
September/October lows ) . All in all, the charts are looking very
healthy.

The market internals are also looking good. Our internals
measures have been moving higher along with the market, and
several are at higher readings than they were at the market
highs back in July. Even the advance decline line, which has
been a real laggard, is starting to shape up nicely.

Of course we always have to look for something to worry about.
In this case, we have a market that is getting pretty overbought
on a short term basis. Simply put, it looks like it is about time
for the market to take a bit of a breather. Those overbought conditions
have us looking for some choppy trading this week.

But all in all, the market is looking very strong. We had a good
looking bottom in early October with a successful retest of the

prior lows for the DJIA. We also had some extreme bearishness
including a Newsweek "crash" cover story. Good bottoms are made
of such extreme bearishness. There will certainly be some more
volatility and hiccups ahead, but for the first time in several
months we are thinking more about new highs than about retests
of the lows.

-----
With over 3,000 links in more than 100 categories, our goal is to
have the most complete financial and investing directory on the net.
http://www.investormap.com

---------------------
The Leonids: King of the Meteor Showers
http://www.skypub.com/meteors/leoking.html

FWIW XAU maintaining level or closing at 74 will be a strong
opening tomorrow.
Cobra ,nice reversal on the hourly,in my indicators take off
is 73.9.Oh well I'm fully loaded up.

two silver calls March 99, strike 600 for $300.00 each,
one gold call April 99, strike 300 for $620.00.

My thoughts are this:
Important events are coming up: the EURO might push down the dollar more and have an impact on pushing up the gold. Silver might be impacted in the same direction and partially for the same reasons; plus additional shortage of supply finally hitting; and the call options seem cheap right now.

The market might proof me completely wrong, as everybody at kitco knows. But I wanted to share this information with you.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/smith/981103_cs_selling_rope_ha.shtml

http://www.marketwatch.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnJ6n0b8ZtJaZmti2ntC4&FQ=v%25reuter&Title=Headlines%20for%3A%20v%25reuter%0A

There is little question that the Internet has become in a
few short years,a very powerful and efficient source of
propegating information.It is difficult to believe,as such,
that the government and powers that be would not try to
effect some influence and control.If this discussion site is in any
way typical in the way it handles issues and freely expresses
open and healthy opinions, of course,it would not be ignored.
The question is whether, the powers that be, would attempt to infilterate
and influence or disrupt this flow of information and opinion
in any kind of organized way.I was shocked,last night,on the eve
of the big election,at the degree of sheer chaos that existed here.
There was one alternate issue and smoke screen ofter the other.
Now,how is that for being mega paranoid or do I give them way too
much credit?????

minds are fiercely independant...they also appear to be devotedly firm Libertarians and I don't mean the kind we see on television...given the previous I would be very nervous if I was big brother...who knows who put ABC's fake election up on the net eh?

Please explain: the SPotlight Illuminates garbage. Do you mean
that it reveals the ugly truth about what the media hides?
Do you mean you do not believe they speak the truth? Do you mean
they have nothing worthwhile to say?

Being pro-gun, pro-life, pro-gold, and conservative, I have to admit
a bias towards their articles but if they are lying I need to know
that.

Frustrated: the Fidelity gold funds follow the Toronto Gold Index ( TGL ) much more closely than the XAU. And the TGl was recently down about 1.5%.

BART... I wish to second everyone's motion thanking you for the site and your tolerance. Kitco is a great place... the finest precious metals forum on the net.

RJ.... What a fantastic oration at 02:59. You should run for office and replace both candidates in the Sanchez / Dornan race they're having down there today!

Farfel... Re your 22:27 last evening... I guess you weren't reading the comments of the rest of the forum. Foodfights are Tohu and Bohu here. Therefore rather than a lengthy response to that very ill advised post...I shall let your 22:27 stand for all time, as a tribute to the
differences between yourself, and the excellent contributors to this site, whom I appreciate greatly, and who exist in large number.

Back to Gold, Silver & Platinum...back to rocket science.....

Taking off nicely! 74.4 and climbing.
Walt

Goldilocks; The point is Wesiss ( like Puetz ) came out with an ultrabearish forecast just as the market exploded in a huge rally. The classic awful call.

Looks like a correction has begun but I don't think it will be very severe. Perhaps 250 points on the Dow. And then a move to 9000 or so.


But even if this is indeed a new bull, it will be the shortest in history. By my reading of cycles it should peak around February somewhere between Dow 9000 and Dow 10,000. And then we test the lows again and quite possibly break them by spring.

But of course the media would NEVER try and influence our vote....

Tuesday November 3, 12:23 pm Eastern Time

Woops! ABC News posts results before polls open

NEW YORK, Nov 3 ( Reuters ) - ABC News had to make an embarrassing apology
to its web-site readers on Tuesday after an election-eve goof that saw erroneous poll
results posted before anyone had even voted.

``Last night, during testing of the site ( abcnews.com ) , we inadvertently posted
results and erroneous predictions on the outcomes of the political races,'' a note on
the site said Tuesday morning.

"There was no bias intended by what we posted and the predictions do not reflect the reporting or news judgment of
ABC News.

Seems like a rocket scientist came up with this one. ^o-o^

http://209.116.217.64/main.htm

I don't think anyone would give diddly about this site in terms of 'gobment cunspearcy stuf'.

The NSA, National Security Agency, probably has pile of Cray Supercomputers on the internet running filtering programs which look for keywords in Internet packets as they undoubtably do with voice recognition on analog telephone signals, etc. They are looking for words like 'assassination', 'bomb', 'cocaine', 'president' ...

Uh, hold on, I just heard a knock at the door.

"Hello? ! !!" Thump! Uggggghh ...'

Bam! Bam! Bam!

ANOTHER threat to liberty extinguished.

.
.
.

( voice changes )

I think you had better move along now, Mr Carmack. Its a bit hot here right now. Good bye. click ... buzzzzzzzzz .

...I keep reading articles out on the Net, and comments here at Kitco, that Gold is at its "at all time lows". I bought my physical gold in February 1998 ( was it February? ) , at the price of $275.00 per ounce. It seems to me THAT is the low, and gold has been hanging on VERY well considering all the manipulation to keep it down.

Believe me, when all the "manipultion" reaches "payback time", which I believe is Very Very soon, this FIAT system will come crumbling down and all of us who have been hanging on to our gold investments will reap the rewards of patience : )

A Dig It & Namaste to all...

Supply and Demand in 1997

Demand for silver was robust in 1997 across all the main sectors of demand, reaching a record offtake of 863.4 million ounces. Total fabrication demand exceeded supply from mine production and recycled scrap by 198 million ounces. It was the ninth consecutive year that conventional supply ( mine production and recycled scrap ) failed
to keep up with fabrication demand, which grew last year by 6.1 percent. The gap between conventional supply and fabrication demand has widened during the 1990's, averaging 120 million ounces per year from 1990 to 1997.

From 1990 to 1997, cumulative silver fabrication demand has exceeded mine
production alone by more than 2.2 billion ounces. The balance has been filled with recycled silver scrap and by the drawdown of more than 1 billion ounces of silver bullion inventories held by investors, banks, and governments.

The three main components of silver fabrication demand all had increases in 1997. Industrial usage of silver grew by 7.4 percent, totaling 323.5 million ounces. Jewelry and silverware combined were up 5.3 percent for the year, for a total offtake of 280.2 million ounces. Photographic demand for silver rose by 3.5 percent to 232.3 million ounces in 1997.

The United States was the leading consumer of silver last year with 167 million ounces. Other major consuming countries were India ( 131 million ounces ) , Japan ( 127.2 million ounces ) , Italy ( 58.3 million ounces ) , and Germany ( 46 million ounces ) .

In 1997, total silver supply was 863.4 million ounces, which represents an increase of 4 percent over 1996. Global mine production accounted for 512.6 million ounces, a 4.8 percent increase over 1996. Primary silver mines generated 22 percent of the total, with the remaining 78 percent as by-product of base metal and gold mining.

Fifteen countries produced 94 percent of the world's silver last year. Mexico was the largest producer, Peru and the United States the second and third largest producers respectively.

Recycled scrap accounted for nearly 18 percent of total supply last year, generating 152.5 million ounces. The United States was the largest recycler 43.6 million ounces, with three-quarters of that amount coming from photographic scrap mainly in the form of spent fixer solutions and old X-ray films.

That's sometimes true on a daily basis but it appears over the longer term that Fidelity's Select Gold fund more closely follows the XAU.

As of today's current prices the XAU is down about 6% since Oct. 1st, Fidelity's Select Gold Fund is down about 7%, and the TLG is down only 3%.

Got a call from my Perma-Pak dehydrated foods company saying that my
shipment has been delayed about two weeks because they are in the middle
of constructing a larger warehouse for distributing shipments due to
their increased demands over the last several months. They are even
manning the phone lines 24 hours now. People are getting scared and
they are acting. If you are considering a food storage plan at all,
I would encourage you to act now before news like this starts hitting
the mainstream media and it is too late to get your goods. Same applies
for gold of course; both food and gold have intrinsic value which
short of theft cannot be taken from you by other forces outside of
your control......Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

BTW I saw a great ad for ammo in the Shotgun News the other day.
A company claimed that "all our ammo is Y2K Compliant".
Any questions?

That is all.

High proportion of Jews working with Clinton? If they were hired on merits,competency,what's wrong with that? I never understood the anti-semitism There is nothing wrong to work hard ,to succeed,to be in a high position."The high level of Jewish sensitivity is the direct result of 2000 year history of persecution, genocide and oppression - inflicted mainly by Christians"Why Christians have persecuted Jews? I am not a Jews.During my youth,I never heard anti-semitism.When I started to work outside and I met Europeans, I was surprised to hear many anti -semitism comments.I did not understood the motives.ABM your post was very educative.

That's a pretty cool site..all the power of the best search engines in one spot. Hmmm, I have to run back over there and type keywords

"Silver, exponential, increase"

PS: Aurator' Oop's, I just can't help it, my keyboards toss it in indiscriminately!

built a head of steam,it could spook the markets".....Tom Gallagher at Lehman Brothers says "If they see big gains ( republicans ) ,its bad for stocks,its bad for bonds because it raises the chances of a tax cut"..........me thinks these guys are a taco short of a full plate.....then again the lefts mind set is hard to figure out

I do not think that we are talking about anything quite
so sinister as a government conspiracy but rather
political influnce.Sorry if you were offended.

Goldtec said: "When I started to work outside and I met Europeans, I was surprised to hear many anti -semitism comments."

I have lived in Europe all of my life and I have never heard anti-semitic remarks except on TV ( Neo Nazi rallies etc. ) .

...and damn proud of it.

What drove me insane?

Hmmm...well, I am a member of the Baby Boom generation, post WWII, supposedly an enlightened generation free of autonomic racial hatred. Still, for the crime of simply having a Jewish last name, I remember growing up near country clubs that banned my membership...I remember being chased home from junior high school by big neanderthals throwing snowballs at me, screaming epithets of "Dirty Jew, etc.," ( this form of torment ended one day when a buddy and I took a stand, waited for them one day after school, and ambushed them with a fusilade of ice-packed snowballs. Do you know how painful ice feels against blood? After that about-face, they never bothered us again, in fact they became our buddies later, we used to party together in High School, and I still keep in touch with their families ) ...I remember, during the early Eighties' Oil Crisis seeing the cars with the bumper stickers that read, "Burn Jews, Not Oil." So, from the earliest age, I did NOT have to go looking behind every tree to see anti-semites...they came looking for me!

When you state that Jews have loyalty first to Israel, then you perpetuate the same canards that were the hallmarks of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Why do you single out Jews? When the Irish make a big deal out of St. Patrick's Day, paint themselves and everything around themselves green, and go an Irish chauvinistic binge, why do you not question the loyalty of the Irish to America?

I, for one, do NOT relate well to Israelis. MOST of my Jewish friends do NOT relate well to Israelis. We believe we share little in common EXCEPT our religion. I have had many business dealings with Israelis and there is a different "Middle Eastern" cultural mindset coming from that part of the world than exists here in America. In fact, I would state that Palestinians, Iranians, and Israelis have more in common with each other than with American Jews...unfortunately, they simply are unaware of that little fact, but it is true. The culture of the Middle East is simply different and alien from its American counterpart. I did not grow up in Israel and I do NOT relate. Sorry to pop your bubble.

Petronius, you are right about one thing....the Jewish problem is NOT special...however, unlike the examples you cite re: Kurds and Armenians, the Jewish problem is chronic. It is a historical reality that has existed since the crucifixion of Christ ( we are blamed for that one too! ) . On a cyclical basis over the past two thousand years, there has been an anti-semitic purge against Jews every 30 to 60 years somewhere in some country in the world. No Kurds nor Armenians nor Palestinians can make that claim since their respective problems are relatively recent in comparison...so on the basis of that little historical fact, maybe you might understand the genesis of Jewish paranoia.

As far as the Israeli ban against non-Hebrew nationals serving in high government positions...you might be able to understand this position a little better if you realize that, in a country fighting daily for its survival...in a country surrounded by millions of Arabs advocating the extermination of Israel...then as a mere survival mechanism, the national laws were constructed to ensure that high officials cannot possibly be Arab but ONLY Hebrew nationals friendly to Israel's interests. In other words, they are laws born of necessity -- not animus nor ethnic superiority ( such as was the case in Nazi Germany ) .

Finally, when you state that the majority of American Jews are in favor of gun control and this represents a rejection of First Amendment Rights, then you are truly living in a dreamland. The truth is that there is an enoromous schism amongst Jews in that respect...some of the most rabid, pro-gun zealots I know in this country are Jewish chauvinists. Two of my better Jewish buddies own a total of FIFTY guns between them ( including UZI's and mortar rockets ) . They are anything but gun control exponents. Moreover, a good slice of the Republican party is now Jewish. Finally, the notion of Jews passively accepting another march to the concentration camps is inconceivable today. The next attempt to herd Jews for slaughter will be met by amazing, powerful, and forceful Jewish resistance Today, I know more Jews who support the Jewish Defence League than would ever conceive of supporting Israel.

Essentially, Petronius, you are living in some self-created, delusional fantasyland where Jews are concerned. As Dylan said, "The Times They Are a Changing" and you're perspective on Jews is standard anti-semitic stuff. You definitely have a problem with Jews and you couch your distaste in all variety of quasi-intellectual justifications. However, they have no basis in reality and you best "update" some of your ideological canards in order to provide them with some semblance of merit and persuasive force.

Have I made myself clear?

Thanks.

F*

Maybe its because they ( Prudential ) realize just how much corporations profit from our tax dollars. They do not wan't to disturb the status quo. Even though the alternative will offer more growth IMHO.

Can the US print enough money? ( See story below my little ramblings )
Countries are printing up extra cash so that the banks have cash to give
people when they start to get scared and want to withdraw their money. If
they don't have the cash, then you have a run on a bank like the Depression.
I thought it interesting that we're "pumping" 50 billion more into the
economy over the next year. I've know that for a while, but according to
this story - we are running the presses at FULL CAPACITY.
Does that mean that they are in a hurry to get the cash printed and will be
done in 1, 2, or 3 months? Or does that mean it will take them most of the
year to print 50 billion dollars? If that's true, then they can't print MORE
than 50 billion before 2000. Maybe they can outsource to Canada.
I read earlier that most of our money is imaginary, you put it in the bank
or in the stock market and poof, its gone, loaned out to other people,
invested etc. I heard that the banks only keep 3% of cash actually on hand
that they are responsible for.
So, if only 3% of cash is actually in the banking system and what people
carry around in their wallets - and that represents 150 billion dollars -
That means that 150 billion is 3% of 5000 Billion, or 5 Trillion Dollars
( anybody please jump in and correct my specs or math or reasoning ) .
Then an influx of an extra 50 billion brings the cash reserves to 200
billion or 4% of the 5 Trillion dollars.
This means that if people are conservative and draw out 10% of their savings
for Y2K that the Federal Goverment would have to print out 6% more case or
300 billion more dollars.
Or if only 10% of the people want ALL of their money ( assuming that they
represent the average depositor in assets ) they need to print 300 billion
more dollars.
What does this mean if both things happen, everyone wants 10% of savings
except for 10% of the people who want all of their savings?
That would be a cash demand close to 600 BILLION DOLLARS. So if we our money
machines are running at capacity, wouldn't a demand for 600 more Billion or
12 times the current production cause a bit of a problem???
See story below -----
Bank of Canada sees run on cash in 2000
OTTAWA ( CP ) - The Bank of Canada is ready to print more money should people
become anxious about the millennium bug and withdraw large amounts of cash
from banks as Jan. 1, 2000 approaches.
The bug, also called Y2K, was created by programmers who used two digits,
rather than four, to denote the year. That means when 2000 arrives,
computers could read ``00'' as 1900, which could cause systems to make
errors, function erratically or crash completely.
For now, the central bank and financial institutions are closely monitoring
the jitters about possible Year 2000 computer foul-ups before deciding
whether to increase the size of Canada's currency reserves.
The bank typically keeps about $15 billion in its reserves in addition to
the $30.5 billion that circulates largely through the domestic economy.
The U.S. Federal Reserve is printing an extra $50 billion ( U.S. ) over the
next year to pump into its $150 billion ( U.S. ) currency reserves in
anticipation of people withdrawing extra money in the weeks leading to the
millennium.
The United States' money-printing facilities are already running at
capacity. Canada's currency production operations aren't running at full
capacity and, in fact, print bank notes for other countries.
The Gartner Group, a consulting firm that is tracking the world's Y2K
preparedness, estimates that about 23 per cent of all companies and federal
agencies have barely started Year 2000 efforts.
The firm is predicting major computer problems in Russia, China, along with
many nations in Latin America, Central Africa, Southeast Asia, which could
fuel a global recession that lasts four to six years.
Sharon Wilks, of the Canadian Bankers Association, said banks expect
consumers' worries will increase as the date draws closer and the banks are
prepared for many to withdraw extra money as a safeguard.
``We're expecting some people will feel more comfortable with cash in their
hands even though we're confident the industry will be ready on time,''
Wilks said.
Canadians rely heavily on credit and debit cards and don't carry as much
cash as they once did so a bigger demand for cash would be quickly felt,
said Wilks.
---------------------------------------
Year 2000 computer fears bring out survival instinct
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/surv01.html

No matter how many requests are politely made....????

Forget all this Y2K talk. You want Gold, PM's and mining shares to soar? Get Monex, Kitco, and Mining companies to advertise on the Playboy web site!

This is what Ktel did, and they're up almost 100% ...in one day! Images of Golden bunnies....

NEW YORK ( CNNfn ) - Shares of K-Tel
International Inc. doubled in price on Tuesday after
the well-known direct-marketing company reached
a co-branding agreement with the online division of
Playboy Enterprises Inc.
Shares of Minneapolis-based K-Tel ( KTEL )
skyrocketed 6-7/8 to 13-3/4 in extremely heavy
trading Tuesday on the Nasdaq. Playboy's class B
shares ( PLA ) rose 15/16 to 15-3/4.
The surge comes following a joint statement that
K-Tel agreed to develop a music-selling section on
the free portion of Playboy's Web site -- a
destination that receives almost 60 million page
views a month.
The partnership is financially the largest pact
ever formed by Playboy Online, both companies
announced in the statement.

A Houston Bankers Perspective...
Author: Marcus Livius Drusus
Date: 1998/11/02
Forums: comp.software.year-2000

Still waiting on replies from local government and utility officials
for followups on my earlier posts, so while I was waiting, I stopped
in to a local branch bank to ask some questions. You'll be interested
in the response.

The bank is the Laredo National Bank branch in the Houston Galleria. I
spoke with Jim Snelling, Vice President/Operations Manager, voice
phone 713.627.8301, fax 713.627.1151.

He is nearly as personable a man as it possible to find in a bank. I
had simply started with a teller asking if they had a brochure. They
were out. I was referred to Jim after asking who I could speak with
re:Y2k.

What followed was a nearly ninety minute discussion. He knew very
little about the problem, as most of the remediation program is being
handled by the main bank in Laredo. He simply related that he the main
office continued to relate that they would make it on time. Throughout
our conversation, he was eager to query me about various aspects of
the problem, interested in the ramifications of the international
situation, embedded systems, and the state of other industries. BTW,
he's been a banker for over forty years. He admitted to having no
email or web access from either home OR from work. Incredible.

Telling points from our conversation:

1 ) His bank paid a fine he described as a "$50K slap on the hand" last
year for not meeting a mandated deadline.

2 ) However, corporate assured him that they would make sufficient
progress to avoid paying a fine at the next deadline, where the
penalty would be "really significant."

3 ) He mentioned several times his concern about bank runs, saying
there was "no way" they would be able to keep enough cash to withstand
a panic, and that they had relieved memos from the Feds warning them
of the possibility. He then went so far as to say that when this issue
hit the media hard next year, he expected runs and holidays.

4 ) Single most surprising revelation: when I mentioned the 6% reserve
ratio, he replied: "Oh, it's worse than that. If we had a run today...
reaching over to some printouts on his desk, he quoted me; "We have
$110 million `in the bank', and $610K actual cash money in the bank."
What's that, not even 1%?

5 ) I asked him how many queries per week he relieved about the Y2k
problem. 1 to 2, he replied, and the most common concern was the bank
losing peoples' records after the rollover.

6 ) He stated that I was the most knowledgeable person he had yet met
on the issue, in his company or out, and invited me back to keep him
apprised of the situation as it develops. He also asked me what my
personal preparations were going to be.

I feel compelled to restate, he was an extremely nice man, but I
walked out of the bank feeling like we had just shot an episode of the
Twilight Zone. A forty year banker, a medium-grand poobah at his bank,
could probably approve me for a huge loan if he so desired, and was
mining me for information on the Y2k issue. I'll followup with the
main bank, but for now...

Headed for Sam's to buy some chow.

Marcus


Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.

Robert Frost "Two Tramps in Mud Time"

I don't know why everyone is ignoring ennism. It is real, it is here, and, like the grocer's apostrophe, it is multiplying like rabbit's, eh, LGB?

way/one world types work for Clinton...religion is used by the left to and has for decades divided and stir up emotions as we have seen here of late

http://www.ferretsoft.com/netferret/download.htm

The measures have turned desperate as Banks realize that the chances of getting their gold back rests solely on a declining gold price! Watch for a concerted effort to push prices much lower from here! Hate to admitt it but the game is rigged and no matter how right we are the price of gold will continue to be manipulated........

low. Hedge fund activity trying to salvage their butts? Yep...

Very much enjoyed your 13:20 posting.

"Harlan Berk, owner of the downtown Chicago coin dealership Harlan J. Berk Ltd., said: ``I've been in this business for 34 years. These trends come and go. And we are just starting to see a trend now [in millennium-inspired sales]. There is something in the human mind about even numbers--70 home runs, year 2000. 1999 is going to mean a lot, because people will be looking the year 2000 in the face.''
[Note: another mystical number which impresses people is zero. As in, Zero power, zero food, zero water, zero bank withdrawls.--W.]
During the last four months, his store has sold $3.5 million in gold coins. Ordinarily, he would sell $100,000 in these coins.

He said demand is big for British gold sovereigns--a la James Bond--and 20-franc coins from Belgium, France and Switzerland. One sovereign sells for about $90 and contains a quarter ounce of gold. Discounts are available for larger quantities.

These coins are more popular than those containing a full ounce of gold because they are more affordable and easier to exchange if there is a shortage of cash or the banking system goes down.

Berk said survivalists in the past loaded up on silver dimes.

``This time around, people seem to have more money,`` he said. ``I think they want to own gold. Concerns about Y2K provide them with the justification they need to buy it.''
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/surv01.html
( This quote is from Sharefin's earlier post with the same URL )

Re the end of your message. The silver dimes are being snapped up also. It's true Gold coin sales volumes are soaring. But the junk silver bags are seeing a steadily escalating "premium" over spot....quite a reversal from the post Buffet "discount" from spot we were seeing a few months ago in the spring.

ABM-I understand, appreciate & can't really disagree with anything you
stated in your 0605 & have no problem with 7% of the population of a Country, virtually, running the entire Country, particularly foreign policy.

Petronius-I must admit that your well written 0758 touched on a few points that I was'nt really aware of.

I will have no more to say on this subject.

http://www.techmgmt.com/restore/concamps.htm

surprise, surprise.

test...

"I have lived in Europe all of my life and I have never heard anti-semitic remarks except on TV" I thought to this comment, you know Europe,you live there, probably my statement was wrong.I met these three Europeans a long time ago a British about 30 years ago, a German about 25 years ago and the last one about 20 years ago was from eastern Europe.They were strongly anti-semitic,but they were young people.It was only three persons a long time ago.I did not use the right words to express a thought.I should have said "When I started to work outside and I met some ( three ) Europeans a long time ago ( 25 years ) I was surprised to hear many anti -semitism comments.".I did not want to offend Europeans.Best Regards

My Canadian Jrs are going up. Judging by thier perforance gold is over 300. SOMETHING has changed, I'm climbing back into the black.

I thought you were right on in your evaluation of Petronius's comments. Keep the faith brother. See you at the next meeting of the Elders of Zion. ( That was a joke Squirrel, James, Tanatlus Rex, and Petronius )

steve@familyjeweler.com

George, I too have noticed some life in the Canadian small gold shares. I think that they are finally over the Bre-X crap. This is why the hew highs/new lows and McClellan Summation index numbers have improved so much.

I own some Southwestern Gold, Dynamic Precious Metals Fund and BGR Precious Metals to cover this area.

to be discussed later this month.

The question then is do they let their currency obviously devalue, as with US$50 gold coin now selling for $300 ( soon to be revalued upwards ) ?

OR

do they enforce rigorous monetary control and sound money policies and maintain 100 euro gold coin worth 100 euros.....i.e. effective 100% gold backing?

Council of Europe Opens New Court

BRUSSELS, Belgium ( AP ) -- The Council of Europe inaugurated a streamlined European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France, that it hopes will deal faster with citizens' complaints.

``Nearly 800 million Europeans will have access to this court,'' Daniel Tarschys, the secretary-general of the Council of Europe, said at the inauguration ceremony Tuesday.

``With 40 judges and a jurisdiction spanning from Nuuk in Greenland to Petropavlovsk, in Kamchatka ( in the Russian far east ) ... this will be the largest permanent court in the world,'' Tarschys said.

The new court will work full-time, unlike the old one that operated just one week every month and handled about 100 cases a year, said council spokeswoman Kathy Burton.

``We're hoping the new system will speed up the procedure quite dramatically,'' Burton said. Under the old court system, rulings often took years.

The court rules on infringements of the 1950 European Human Rights Convention that was signed by all 40 nations in the Council of Europe. Citizens from those nations can bring cases to the European court after they have exhausted legal options in their home countries.

AP-NY-11-03-98 1207EST

Is BART's $288 correct?

Now that this has become a forum for discussing Judiasm, I'll add my two cents ( sorry 2 [yes, he is a poster here on occasion] ) . I have met many more liberal, left wing to the max people of the Jewish religion than those who were conservative Jews. I have never met a Hasidic Jew. I understand that they are very conservative and religious. I have met a few conservative folk of the Jewish religion. I can identify with them quit nicely, thank you. I have know many Irish Catholic Liberals ( Boston, don't you know ) . They run around on St. Patty's day in green to make a point to the Orange Irish ( the Protestant Irish, I think most of you know this issue ) . No friction there eh? Let it suffice to say that I do not get along with many Catholics of the Liberal persuassion. The same is true for the Protestants. What does this mean? Birds of a feather flock together.

Does it mean that I'm a racist or bigot? Some would say that, but I believe it has more to do with like minded thinking. People will always associate with those that share some common value or thinking. Children, as we all know, can be very cruel. It is the job of parents to teach children to be civilized and not barbarians. Somewhere along the way we become adults whom, although we may disagree, we don't chop the other guys head off and eat his heart for dinner in the hopes that we become a braver warrior for having gained the knowledge in the enemies heart.

The upshot of this? Most of us behave like adults when having a disagreement. Some who post here are children who never grew up. This goes for both the boor as well as the offended. The rest of us adults should continue to behave like adults and IGNORE the boors, for they are legion.

Oh! Yes, there are bigots, racists, and whatever other catagory that you care to name all around us. Perhaps, by knowing who and what they are, you of the offended can make your point ONCE and MOVE ON. You don't have to respond to them, you know. You don't have to raise Hell and demand that Bart do something. He's got other things to do, and besides, if he wanted to do something, he would. Now that I'm pretty sure that I've offended somebody, I have some trading left to do. Does anybody remember that gold or platinum stuff anymore around here?????

Where is SDR'er when you need her?? SDR'er...if you can read this...

( ..any info on EMU resolutions dates??...Nov 6th has been mentioned... )

Re..... "OR do they enforce rigorous monetary control and sound money policies and maintain 100 euro gold coin worth 100 euros.....i.e. effective 100% gold backing?"

Chances of this are somewhere between slim and.... no make that, somewhere between none and none. Unless they want to slip into the economic dark ages as the rest of the world economy moves forward.

Fat chance.

Reserves to back with something of value? Yes. Less deficit spending and more fiscal responsibility? All for it. 100% backing with no expansion or flexibility of monetary policy? Not good in an expanding world. Now if population and economic activity was to start falling....

Your point is well taken......

Again, surprised it's about even on the day,xcellent.

date is correct or not and what exactly was to transpire. We need
SDRer here to fill us in. I was posting yesterday from memory.
Where's SDRer? I want to know as well! Hope I didn't cause you too
much anxiety! Fox-man

http://www.sacbee.com/voices/national/barry/barry_19981101.html

the wording is ..."100% effective gold backing"...

Now I ask you why would firmly linking a states currency to the value of gold prevent expansion of it's economy?

You have clearly demonstrated that you have not thought through the implications and various meanings of "gold backing".

If a states total assets ( excluding gold and debt ) were to increase by
X% then to purchase a part of these assets with my alloted amount of gold would just cost less.

E.g. imagine a small island state with 100 million sheep as the net sum of assets and the total gold coinage in circulation is 100 million ounces of gold. Therefore I can buy 10 sheep for 10 ounces of gold, agreed?
The sheep breed, as sheep do, and the economy can be said to have "expanded", the money supply has not expanded due to a usury free system set up by some history enlightened leadership.
So now there are, say, 120 million sheep and therefore I could buy 12 sheep for my 10 ounces of gold.

Are the sheep going to stop breeding because we only have 100 million ounces of gold by which to measure our money supply?, I don't think so. In the same way humans will not stop innovating, building producing because the money in circulation is a standard measure. Actually I think they will be rather pleased that they are not getting ripped off by having their money devalued into worthlessness by usurous banking schemes. In fact they can buy more with their money over time because this way the whole society is sharing in the benfits of increased "economic" activity.

Question from an old stock investor, new gold investor.

While buying a few Canadian maple leafs recently, I enquired about the availability of South African Krugerrands and was told by the vendor that she didn't trade them because people who bought them in the past were no longer getting a good return on their investment after South Africa fell into political disfavor and South African gold was banned in this country. What happened to all of those investors out their who had previously bought large numbers of this vehicle?

Similarly, how confident can we be now in buying Canadian Maples today that the same thing will not happen with them in the future ( except, of course, that we have a long tradition of friendly relations with Canada, a country that has a similar value system to our own ) ?

What I'm really asking is to what degree is the durability of gold as an investment affected by political instability and favoritism? Should we only be buying U.S. Eagles?

Bradfrog

Who cares if the 100 Euro gold coin will stay at 100 Euros or not! Gold is gold and will always be the ultimate money...it will also fluctuate with currencies as they strengthen and weaken...The important point, as I see it, is that they are selling it, not that they are backing it...

Farfel old buddy ..
I'll tell you a secret .. you were NOT discriminated
against because you are Jewish .. You are quite
capable of being discriminated against on your own
merits.

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Nov. 3

-- TOTALS
Gold 827,089 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 74,542,196 + 282,564 troy ounces
Copper 70,503 - 190 short tons

give all your worthless gold Krugerrands or any other gold you may have to me....I know someone who might buy it...nudge, nudge, wink.

Are you for real?

closed at 73.10

Hmmm

Any one got an idea of the amount of gold reserve contemplated for the euro? I've heard 10-15% more to the 10% side. Comments?

Actually the spread between maples, krands and eagles is diminishing. Krands are less than 2$ off the pace of the others.

St. Louis Fed says $20 bills never worthless

NEW YORK, Nov 3 ( Reuters ) - No matter what St. Louis radio station
KSLZ-FM said, $20 bills issued by the U.S. Treasury will not become
worthless at the stroke of midnight tonight -- or at any other time, the
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis said on Tuesday.

``An apparent prank by a disc jockey at a radio station in St. Louis today
incorrectly reported the old $20 bills would soon become worthless,'' the
St. Louis Fed said in a statement. ``The United States always honors its currency at full face value, no matter how
old.''

St. Louis Fed spokesman Charles Henderson said the regional Fed bank received calls from worried residents of the
St. Louis area who had heard on their favorite Top-40 FM station that the $20 bills in their valets were about to turn
into worthless pieces of paper at midnight.

``One of the disc jockey jokingly made the comment that, tonight, the $20 bill will be worthless. It was a joke. It's
amazing people would believe that money has an expiration date,'' KSLZ 107.7 executive Lee Clear said.

``Our disc jockey was talking about the fact there are pretty new $20 bills out there,'' Clear added.

The U.S. Treasury in September introduced new $20 bills with special features aimed at deterring counterfeiting.

``As older notes wear out and are returned to the Federal Reserve, they are replaced by the new notes,'' Henderson
said, adding that $20 bills have an average lifespan of two years, versus 8.5 years for the less-circulated $50 and
$100 denominations.

an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold...no more...no less...

For those of you who may be looking for good gold prices and supply, subscribe to "Coin World" magazine...it has some very good ads for gold of all kinds at very good prices from several different dealers...they also have a web site by the same name.

I have'nt seen it since year end. I used to be able to check on the top 10 holdings on the G&M MF site, but for some reason that don't seem to show the holdings anymore. Are you comfortable with their portfolio in a sustained downturn under 270? I have been trading the wts for years & was lucky enough to sell most of them between 2.60-2.80 after the recent run-up. Started buying them again @ 2.00, but a little concerned that we may be facing lower POG than most analysts are forecasting, & am concerned about their staying power. TIA.

Looks to me like the boys who bought early on the spike down opening closed out their postions going into the close. NEM really sold off making new lows for the day at the close.

Look at it objectively don't project forward: All short term trends in all the metals are down. Same is true for the XAU. While still long some core positions the technicals do not warrent my being aggressive on the long side at all. Any day going forward could be a low for the commencement of a sustained uptrend, but its been any day now for months....... Diversification away from the precious metal area was the thing to do a month ago, until the trend changes it will continue to be so. The DOW bull could go much further and the metals' dulldrumns could last much longer - I tell myself look at it objectively don't project. Metals are going down, DOW and S&P etc. are going up - someday this may chance, perhaps and only perhaps dramatically - wait till it happens; quite this anticipation in a bear metal market.

Dow 10,000 before Gold $315???

No problem with your rationale Kiwi, except that it would then follow that the AMOUNT of Gold that does the backing ceases to have much relevance. Why not back 5 trillion with one ounce of Gold, cut into teeny tiny amounts that'll rise in value with economic activity? We could all have a few teeny tiney's and try and get the other guy's eh?.....

Sorry, there is no "practical" way, given today's global economic activity, and population, to use Gold as "Hard money" for the masses.

The nice lady wants to sell you coins that have a higher markup. Even though gold is true money, liars are no less represented in the gold market than anywhere money is involved.
-EJ

Something to consider about coins, both bullion and future numismatic value is their purity and the numbers issued.

The SA Kruger Rand probably has the greatest number of coins issued, but is not fine gold.

This detratacts the bullion purchaser, who can buy the fine gold issues of other nations; while the KR's large numbers in existense detracts its possible future numismatic value.

To cost of melt down and converting a KR to fine gold a would be more expensive than for the Canadian ML.

Making a country or a coin unpopular has much to do with media reports, advertisement pro or con and as always politics.

Spose if we all got together, the IMF would give us some sort of bailout package??

I think it is best to buy the gold coin of your own Country you
live in. That way you protect yourself against not only currency
depreciation but also political bickering etc. that will surly be a part
of the economic adjustments to come.

If you can get the Kugers at a big enough discount it's ok. Someday,
after the new powers that reside there have their positions, a totally
new face will be put on South Africa and the Kuggies will be accepted
anywhere, anytime. But only worth it if the discount is big enough. $2
ain't big enough. A few years ago the discount was much bigger $20?
And that was big enough.

IMHO GD

Something to consider about coins, both bullion and
future numismatic value is their purity and the numbers
issued.

The SA Kruger Rand probably has the greatest number of
coins issued, but is not fine gold.

This detratacts the bullion purchaser, who can buy the
fine gold issues of other nations; while the KR's large
numbers in existense detracts its possible future
numismatic value.

To cost of melt down and converting a KR to fine gold
would be more expensive than for the Canadian ML.

Making a country or a coin unpopular has much to do with media reports, advertisement pro or con and as always
politics.

The only way the IMF would bail us out is if we gave them all of our gold to sell short, cut our fiscal spending 80% and balanced our budget!! Then, only if you were in the good-old-boy network of the bankers....The pass word is "I'm a hedge fund manager"!

"An ounce is an ounce" somesone said. Correct. But that is like saying
a car is a car. But some people value Fords over Chevys because of
what the lable says. Or the Mazda over the Probe. For the same reason.
No, it ain't right, but it is so.

Why try and explain a label in a crisis. Does not make sense. Crisis
brings out Nationalism not Globalism.

IMHO GD

Japanese face with their banks compared to the S&L fiasco, he pointed out that non-performing loans comprise 20% of the Jap Banks portfolios compared to the 3-4% that U.S. banks had to deal with.

I don't see how they can do it without wrenching changes in their society that the bureaucrats/politicians are not prepared to inflict. If they ever do really seriously attack their financial/economic problems, then I can see the USD @ 180 Yen. I have no idea were that would put the POG.

Things are beginning to shape up for a potential buy of the metals. I'm lookng for 4.40 front month silver and 275 front month gold. I think these will turn out to be low risk entry points for an extended rally. My confidence will remain high only if the XAU can stay above the mid 65 area while the metals trade lower. The XAU is in a correction process and will likely go down to at least 71. At the same time the gold funds should have minimum slippage.

so well with GCZ8 under 290, especially some of the majors such as PDG.
I wish I'd had the nerve to keep my PDG short. I have a feeling that we may see low 280s soon.

Oh well! At least I'll be able to sleep better being almost flat.

Looking fwd to picking up some great bargains during tax loss selling, which should start in a few weeks.

Six months ago, a passel of Japanese Finance Ministry types came to the US for a lesson in how the US government cleaned up the mess. Here's the how-to that they learned.

1 ) Audit the banks to find the ones that are insolvent
2 ) Fire the bank's managers
3 ) If any bank managers were involved in illegal activity, put them in jail
4 ) If any politicians were involved with the dirty bank managers, put them in jail, too
5 ) Put the bank's assets on the world market to get the best price
6 ) The remaining uncovered deposits will have to be paid off with public dollars

The whole process takes four to five years, best case.

The reality that this is impossible for the Japanese to do has yet to be priced into the Nikkei.
-EJ

American Gold $50.00 piece on a scale it weighs 1.0909 troy oz.....same goes for K-Rands however Mapels weigh 1 troy ounce.....PS no bullion coin will ever gain numismatic value in my life time

So that's why I was having such a hard time putting that 1/10 oz Eagle into the gas pump at the self-serve island :- )

So, if gold does not have a cash role, what role does it have? It doesn't have a monetary role, so why don't the CB's sell it all? What's the point of keeping a non-performing asset sitting on the books at $35 an oz. when you can sell it for $288? Even if selling it into an illiquid market drops the price down to $70, you still double your asset value, and you can put the money into reserve currency -- dollars and euros and yen, a mix of a bunch of currencies. That's the safest bet.

Or maybe the CBs don't think that's such a safe bet after all, for some reason.

-EJ

Handy & Harman Spot Prices

Tue, 3 Nov 1998

Metal

Price per

Troy Ounce

Change

Gold

$288.60

-$4.10

Silver

$4.91

-$0.15

Intrinsic Values of U.S. Coins

Denomination

Type

Dates Issued

U.S. Value

Double Eagle

90% gold

to 1932

$279.22

Eagle

90% gold

to 1933

$139.61

Half Eagle

90% gold

to 1929

$69.80

Dollar

90% silver

to 1935

$3.80

Half Dollar

90% silver

to 1964

$1.78

40% silver clad

1965 to 1970

$0.73

Quarter

90% silver

to 1964

$0.89

Dime

90% silver

to 1964

$0.36

Nickel

90% silver

1942 to 1945

$0.28

Intrinsic Values of Canadian Coins

Denomination

Type

Dates Issued

Canadian Value

Dollar

80% silver

1936 to 1966

$4.49

Fifty Cents

80% silver

1920 to 1966

$2.24

Twenty-Five Cents

80% silver

1920 to 1966

$1.12

50% silver

1968

$0.70

Ten Cents

80% silver

1920 to 1966

$0.45

50% silver

1968

$0.28

I only buy the Austrian Philharmoiker one oz. 999.9% pure gold bullion coins. The coins have the highest monetary face value of any gold coin without paying a premium for them. Today the coins carry a guarantee of 2000 Shilling or $172.22 U.S. The Phillies are the biggest selling pure gold coin in the world and are guaranteed by the Austrain bank. Furtermore, there are no reporting laws for buying is selling the Phillies unlike the Kugerands and some others.


Here is a copy of a e-mail to me from the bank:

The Vienna Philharmonic coin is a coin of Austria and as such is legal
tender in Austria. Its face value is guaranteed by the Central Bank of
Austria.
In the unlikely event that gold fell below the equivalent of 2000
schillings per ounce, its face value would be greater than its gold bullion value. Under such circumstances gold bullion coin dealers would base their purchase price on the face value rather than the bullion value. In this manner the face value would serve as a "floor" for the value of the coin.

Regards
Kirsten Petersen

As you can see there is only really one choice in Gold bullion coins for the serious investor!

heard a little rumour today that Placer is eyeing up Cambior.

FWIW, rb

But as an engineer I thought you would not have given up so easily on the task of bringing an honest measure of money to the masses.

Quite right the amount of gold backing any currency is irrelevant because the currency will sooner or later be compared with it's gold backing and priced accordingly, for gold is the ultimate DENOMINATOR.
Note when the US went off the gold standard the world did not, 35 SDR is still worth 1 ounce of gold as published regularly by the IMF, and the BIS.

You see gold is not intrinsically a productive asset in itself but a measure for and representation of productive assets. As there is a finite amount about on our small planet it serves as a reliable measuring unit, unlike other not so reliable fiat flexible money measures.

This is the archilles heel of the dismal science of economics. It would be impossible to measure reliably and build a body of science of the physics if there was no agreement on the length of one metre or the weight of one kilogram, etc.

As gold has historically fluctuated with respect to a basket of valuable commodities by no more than +/- 15% spanning over centuries it makes an excellent anchor for linking any currency to. To provide a fixed unit account to the world's citizen's would not limit their growth but would save them from terribly destructive boom-bust cycles produced by inflation of fiat money which serves to amplify normal cycles produced by technology shifts, population changes, etc.

dealers do not have to record are deals done with personal checks.....if payment is made with cash,money orders,bank checks all have to be recorded...it makes no difference what type or country of gold/silver you buy.....as for sales same thing applies in reverse

...hmmmmmmmmmm.

http://www.preciousmetals.com/y2k.htm

The "problem" with full gold backing of currency is that the economy actually has to produce more for each incremental increase in money supply because of the need to mine the yellow from the ground. When a fractional reserve banking system in a gold backed money environment goes bust, the government can't "make money" for the bank to bail it, or the depositors - they have to use reserves or taxes. Producing these reserves slows growth. Not having them reduces the risk tolerance of depositors, and that of banks as well. So the problem is that the unwinding of debt is difficult. Instead of having the possibility of holding a bank up during duress the bank and its loans are taken apart and sold. Loans assume that the economic activity and thus money velocity and the money supply grow quickly enough to enable repayment of the loan interest. The fractional reserve system is very limited with a gold currency because of the problem of floating prices - meaning that a borrower's business must produce more product when prices fall ( which causes price to fall further ) and bankrupt its competitors. Gold production versus reserves is miniscule and thus a cause of price compression during high growth periods - meaning less profit can be generated. The big plus in a gold backed economy is the self correcting action on the build up of supply and the quick ( though more painful ) resolution of debt unwinding. I favor this, but recognize the faults. There are some - theoretically - better ways of producing a commodity based money, but who knows how they would work in practice. So far, I've seen only the addition of new commodities as money as a practical solution to the problem of gold's limited presence - though an efficient method to produce gold from sea water may solve the problem.

"I believe the American Eagle $5 gold piece is the perfect coin for the following reasons..."

Or maybe this is the reason:

Premium over spot:
1 oz Eagle = 5%
1/10 oz Eagle = 17%

-EJ

We goldbugs do. If the ECB are enlightened enough to realise that fixing their currency unit to something as stable as gold ( the most stable of monies ) , this will enrich the hard-working honest citizens of europe, in two most important ways. One it starve out lecherous, non-productive, societally inefficient practices such as currency speculation and debt accumulation and two, it will enable the full populace to share in the growth of their Euro-GDP with their money actually growing in value, contra to an inflationary deluded world where we are forced to accept that our money declines in value.

When these facts are made known to the world's citizens they will demand such a money indifference to their own, the USdollar will be substituted for Euros en masse. Gold will necessarily rise in tandem and be restored to it's proper value.

We will find out gold's proper value in good time. The world is undergoing such revaluations of productive potential, worth and moral values as we have never seen before. Gold will do fine, USdollars do not look like they'll make it.

Someone was asking about this yesterday---
http://www.marketgauge.com/charts/CSPCMEM.htm

This only ensures that the citizen's currency devalues in their hands.

The finite amount of gold and it's miniscule addition to the above ground stocks ( 2% per annum ) is what makes it insurpassable as a reliable measure of value.

It appears to me that market psychology has taken a dramatic turn again and is feeding another leg of the indomitable bull. Lets face it, gold is not consolidating, preparing itself for a new run at $303. Rather, it seems either range bound or, more ominously, ready to break bottom resistance at $280. And golds behavior represents a paradox; its inability to perform during the two month bear market and currency crisis has established a new level of impotence. After all, everything seemed in place to nudge gold from the doldrums. Yet, all it was capable of achieving is a run at its upper resistance. Frankly, I am rapidly abandoning my belief that gold will ever see a return to $350, let alone breach $400 again. If I am wrong in my agnostic view, can anyone explain to me why a dramatic attempt by the Fed and other central banks to lower rates, indeed announce their willingness to inflate with impunity, has not proved a hospitable environment for gold? Even further, why hasnt the new willingness to provide liquidity prompted the fear of eventual inflation? So many of us have proffered a rationale for gold based on such factors as the inflation of paper assets, global currency problems, bank debt, and a derivatives market that went out of control. Even the Y2K problem seems to have vanished like Clintons guilt. Unless one is content to play golds trading range, or even join the hedge fund gold shorts, gold investing seems more agonizing than playing Oedipus.

From Bill Buckler;

"Looking at the broader picture, in its long decline from the $US 416 levels of Feb. 1996, Gold first
closed below the $US 300 level on November 23, 1997. That's almost a year ago. Since Gold first
traded above $US 300 on August 18, 1979, the longest period of time it had stayed below the
$US 300 level was just over three weeks, in Feb/March 1985. That was up until November 1997.

In the past year ( since 11/13/97 ) , Gold has spent 68 days at or above the $US 300 level. For
almost all the rest of the year, Gold has traded between $US 280-299. Given Gold's history over
the previous 19 years, and given the financial upheavals of the past year, that's a remarkable
record."

Under $US300 for virtually a whole year. Pretty poor record if you ask me.

CAU sells industrial minerals biz for $6 million, it will be interesting to see
how this plays out with I-137 on the ballot in Montana today

"Lets face it, gold is not consolidating, preparing itself for
a new run at $303. Rather, it seems either range bound or, more ominously, ready to break
bottom resistance at $280. And golds behavior represents a paradox; its inability to perform
during the two month bear market and currency crisis has established a new level of
impotence. After all, everything seemed in place to nudge gold from the doldrums. Yet, all it
was capable of achieving is a run at its upper resistance. Frankly, I am rapidly abandoning my
belief that gold will ever see a return to $350, let alone breach $400 again."

I noted the bottom forming in chart of CCJ a week or so ago - it has now broken out. http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=ccj&d=b

I enjoy reading your posts so let me take an opportunity to answer in part your objection to gold as an investment. Others here can better discribe the manipulations of POG by CB's and Fed, partly to defend the credibility of fiat currency.

Here's my point, we are facing a BANKING CRISIS, not an economic one. The real economy can manage well enough in the US, thats not the big problem. The banking system world-wide is so compromized by bad debt, derivitive hedging, and now y2k problems that fiat money, be it the yen or dollar if it is seen as the escape vehicle will be printed to death. That's why gold. It will always be there, therefore it will buy more and more while printed currency buys less and less. If that doesn't happen, you will be right.

There are none.

CCJ/CCO.T--- Wonder why the strength? U is doing nothing, and ditto for gold
rb

I dunno - earnings came out Oct 30th, which may be part of it, but I suspect it's just a technical breakout.

Today's volume was pretty low in the U.S. - How about the Toronto volume - has it also been low?

Did anyone comment on the poll questions?
What did you think of the poll?

d. The poll was very offensive.
e. That website was very offensive.

That, ( offensive/offended ) is the most overused trash word of this sorry decade.

I aspire to the offensiveness displayed by a Master of the Art, John Disney.
I voted for the most offensive, insensitive, louts that I could find in today's elections.

Lets see...

Money ( debt ) destruction brings down the amount of money available for the purchase of anything. The mean tightening of spreads recently has not come close to allowing companies to issue new debt.

Over recent history the money created in the US ends up bidding for financial assets: stocks, PMs and bonds.

CBs threaten gold sales so that they can lower interest rates without fearing a backlash from gold. Besides this, there has been a constant barrage of CB leases to extend the current gold bear.

So much gold has been shorted, that a strong rebound will devastate the financial system. So the CBs figure they can control this with more leasing ( shorting ) .

Note that there is a sell at the end of sessions preceding inflationary news. Check it out, dates on the data release calendar are correlated with gold dumps.

Japanese and Chinese ( $ peg ) are happy, they can buy gold from CBs and miners directly - at a lower price.

I assume you already know about the recent purchase of Uranerz ( sp? ) which gives Cameco 1/3 of the world Uranium production/sales. If oil takes off for some reason, this will be one hot property.

Didn't check any choices but did make the comment that
the Kitco forum is a little strange but ok I guess.

It seems to me that many of you here are too focused on $300 vs $310 psychological barriers, etc. During ordinary times this would a valid analysis. Y2k alone assures these will not be ordinary times. When gold moves it will be a quantum leap. When the printing presses roll where is the money going to go? I seem to recall some time back inflation and interest rates of hundreds of percent a year in Latin America. If anyone has any knowledge of this I would like to know how business operated under these conditions. Was it possible make major purchases, use credit cards or to buy a home?

V.Prof.--You stated, in part,
" Frankly, I am rapidly abandoning my belief that gold will ever see a
return to $350, let alone breach $400 again. If I am wrong in my
agnostic view, can anyone explain to me why a dramatic attempt by the
Fed and other central banks to lower rates, indeed announce their
willingness to inflate with impunity, has not proved a hospitable
environment for gold? Even further, why hasnt the new willingness to
provide liquidity prompted the fear of eventual inflation? So many of us
have proffered a rationale for gold based on such factors as the
inflation of paper assets, global currency problems, bank debt, and a
derivatives market that went out of control. Even the Y2K problem seems
to have vanished..."

Why do lemmings rush headlong into the sea? During this apparent trajedy, the fish smile and feed with no questions asked!...because that is what fish do. Such is the pleasantry to be found as goldbugs these days.

Such a ghoulish rain...

Trucking drivers will be replace if they fall apart!
The show must go on!

Yes volume was only 48,000 in Toronto today. Not much for the size of the move. I can't help thinking it's got something to do with a debenture or something recently floated in the U.S to pay for part of the Uranerz purchase...

rb

Gold has always, and always will, have an inherent intrinsic value. As such, it should play SOME role in the backing of a country's economic policy. I'm not a believer in pure "fiat" currency.

For example, while Gold no longer directly backs U.S. dollars, there is a certain "implied" backing based on the largest stockpile of Gold in the world, sitting in U.S. reserves.

Where I would differ with many GoldBugs is;

1 ) To what extent does Gold play a role and back a currency?

2 ) Can an economic entity still have the levers and flexibility to expand credit commensurate with reasonable economic expansion?

3 ) Most importantly, are there OTHER factors or assets in addition to Gold that may team up with Gold to back the value of a country's currency? For example;

Natural Resources.
Economic productivity.
Diversity of economic activity.
Sound political system.
Rule of law.
Historical stability.
Enterprenarial freedom.
State of the art technology.
Strong infrastructure.
Sound banking system.
Reasonably available credit.
Independant and objective review of economic policy.

Etc. etc. etc.

I see several of the above "assets" as having an important "intrinsic" role in backing the currency / economic activity of a country, in addition to such things as the CB stockpile of Gold.

When one tries to be rational in making investments, one is apt NOT to gain very much. I learned that the markets are IRRATIONAL. When one learns to think this way, one will profit.
Think about it, we've had all kinds of rational arguments why gold should go up. It'll probably go up when there aren't any known problems, that is, when everything is going well.

Highhopes

Yup - buy straw hats in the winter, and firewood in the summer. Gold will go up when its time comes, and all the rationalizations until then won't mean anything.

All these lovely assets of your state are worth nothing without a sound money. The ire or apathy of the people will ensure this.

When the money is debased so will the morals and attitudes of the citizens.

Why work for an honest buck when you can screw some other guy over for ten?

Thanks for the Laugh! Bernatz could not have made me chuckle louder!

...and on the other hand, so very evocative, so very true, so very AMERICAN. Thank You.


Can't we all get along?

Anyone who follows the gold market must look at this site. When all the bearish sentiment is ripe we can be sure the gold price reacts
one way or the other. Do not try to make sense out of fundamentals with gold. This is purely a market that works on sentiment, what ever is in favour is what the market will follow.
http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.html
The one encouraging point for gold is that it is drifting down and not collapsing in price, we have had many downward days of movement and 289-290 is now a critical level.

Site to vist is this one ( not as per previous mssge )
http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.html>http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.html

http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.html

Thought they closed early, nobody there but officials at 7 Eastern Std Time here in PA. Looks to be a real light turnout. Not even any Democratic party folks to glad hand like other years...

Deflation is accelerating and tax loss season is about to begin. People will sell for tax losses any stock who's price is below what they paid for it and these includes gold stocks. This will provide us with another opportunity to pick up good quality gold shares at depressed prices. I firmly believe that by the middle of 99 you gold bugs will be witnessing a substantial rise in gold shares. In deflation there is no place to hide. Only cash, bonds and gold will provide shelter from the coming storm. Believe what you want but this is an opinion of a person with a tremendous track record. I'll be arriving in Jordan tomorrow and will visit Petra ( an old Nebataim civilization which vanished about 3000 years ago ) . I'll be in Jerusalem on Nov 5 and will spend 5 days exploring Israel.
Regards, JP.

Nick, and anyone else, wither the Australian dollar?

when entering site delete "en" from golden should read "gold"

You can track the results here: http://cnn.com/ELECTION/1998/

Turnout was heavier than predicted in Houston. BBL

These guys seem to agree with RJ. $250 here we come NOT.

Factors depressing gold prices seen reversing
NEW YORK, Nov 3 ( Reuters ) -- The gold market has become increasingly tighter over the course of 1998, and
the trends that have pushed gold prices lower are poised to reverse themselves, according to industry consultant
CPM Group in New York.

"Low investment demand, high levels of central bank sales, and persistent short selling by traders at banks,
brokerage houses and commodity trading funds have all served to depress gold prices over the past year," said
CPM Group managing director Jeffrey Christian at a briefing for analysts at the publication of the group's 1998
gold market survey.

"All of these factors are expected to reverse field in late 1998 and 1999, paving the way for gold prices to move
higher," he said.

Investment demand for gold has been weak in recent years as competing assets in financial markets have offered
better returns, Christian argued.

"This has begun to change in the third and fourth quarters of 1998," Christian said.

"The economic and financial crises in Asia and Russia, jittery equity and currency markets, and increasingly
positive conditions in the gold market are likely to make gold a more attractive investment over the next couple
of years," he said.

"Already there are signs that this is true with investment demand picking up in North America, Europe, the
Middle East and many Asian countries especially since August," he added.

Official transactions are projected to fall with net sales of 16 million ounces ( 497 tonnes ) seen in 1998, and are
forecast to fall further to 14.0 million ounces ( 435 tonnes ) in 1999, CPM Group said.

"The period of high levels of central bank gold sales in the 1990's may be coming to an end," Christian said.

On the supply side of the equation, mine production from market economies is forecast to rise by 1.2 percent to
64.9 million ounces in 1998 from 64.1 million ounces in 1997, and to rise by 2.2 percent in 1999 to 66.3
million ounces.

Scrap supply will jump 47.7 pct in 1998 to 22.9 million ounces from 15.5 million ounces last year, due to the
South Korean official gold collection campaign earlier this year.

But scrap supply is seen falling 12.7 pct to 20.0 million ounces next year.

Total mine and scrap supply, including output from emerging markets, is seen rising 11.1 pct to 101.8 million
ounces in 1998 from 91.6 million last year, but a rise of only 0.5 pct to 102.3 million ounces is forecast for
1999.

"The mining industry is suffering at present levels and cannot continue to produce gold at anywhere near recent
levels if prices were to fall much further," Christian said. "The gold mining industry worldwide simply cannot
function as it has were prices to fall below $280 an ounce for any significant period of time."

Total fabrication demand, including industrial consumption and jewelry manufacture, is projected to rise 5.1 pct
in 1998 to 106.1 million ounces, from 100.9 million in 1997, and is forecast to rise a further 2.3 pct in 1999 to
108.5 million ounces.

India has been the largest gold consuming country since it edged out Italy in 1995.

Indian gold use is seen rising 12.5 pct to 25.14 million ounces in 1998, following a 19.8 pct rise to 22.34
million ounces in 1997.

that nobody votes.

Now let's back a world currency on the democratic zeal of the American sheople.

These poor sods have been so screwed over by fiat currency and enslaved in it's debt that they can't even raise a bbbbbbbaaaaaaaaa in protest.
Fed 'em up slops ( fast food, entertainment of soft-porn, violence, poxy-political leaders ) and they'll feed at the trough while the blade is raised over their necks.

state in which some of those listed are in. Scary stuff.....
gb

is at 63 US cents.

The computer printout sheets had mybr 60-70% of the names redstamped. I guarantee you they were 95% Republican. I think we'll see a purge tonight.
gb
Keepin' my fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!

It's all you've got.

Live Long and Prosper.

Spot gold UP $1.10 to $289.40 in Hong KOngs.
It seem as if it is usually Up until
US markets open.

Spot Gold UP $1.25

I have an offer of $1900 per roll.....a saving of $500.00....MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and if you buy more than one roll who knows how much you can save.......be carefull out there

I sense a change in the air. Maybe its just the elction process thats working on me, dont think so. I feel that news has been supressed for the last couple of weeks and heaven knows there is a lot going on. I feel that with the election behind us now, news and not all good news will be released. I feel people will begin to awaken that we are nearing the end of an age 12-21-2012. Seems like a long way off but there are many dates of importance ahead.
Nov 6- poss, comet impact
Nov 17-21 meteor shower
All 1999 y2k problems
All 1999 Cliton fiasco
July 1999 Nostadamus prediction
( likely comet or CME )
Dec 31 1999 Big ????
5 5 2000 - Planetary alignment
last time was over 500,000yr ago

Not everyone will see or hear of all these but they will be awakening to atleast some.

Conspiricy Buff, yea you could call me that, but that is because in order to find the truth you keep tripping over them.

Go Gold

producers want it to trade for. AU is anathema to fiat currencies. Draw your own conclusions. The good news is that the AU shares are volatile, fluctuate a lot & are fairly easy to make money on. Just don't plan your life around 400 POG.

Might be a night of many surpises. Got lots of beer-I plan on having a real good time. The farmers around here are going broke in droves!!!

My father voted the straight Democratic ticket today. Several times. And he's dead.

A friend of mine called me from Long Beach and said he will lose all HOPE in America if Barbara Boxer is not re-elected. He said if she loses it will show that people can not think beyond the end of their nose and realize what is happening to the country.

Hey --don't leave me out of the $250 prediction race. I was calling for $250 in March of 1997--here-- and you told me to forget it--gold wouldn't get to $350! Well actually a guy who called himself George Cole told me to forget $350.

Gold UP $1.45

If Armstrong & some of the other bears are right & the NIK goes down to 9000, especially from a higher level, we could be looking at a tremendous opportunity.

!

?

Boxer is a Clinton hack pure and simple. Good riddance if she goes.

Thank you for your precious reply. It appears your views are representative of most Jews and Jewish sympathizers in this forum and I will make it so.

I'm delighted to read that you agree with me in that many Jewish-Americans who have prominent positions in American life have crucial influence towards US Economic Policy. It's always been harder to explain this to fact to young adults in our society. Probably because they've been "brainwashed" early in life from sources such as TV, Film and Music productions. Although it may seem to appear that "artists", "actors", and "directors" are to blame, it is the people in charge who put them there who are more to blame. Note that I did not say that Jews have "total control" over much of America. My definition of crucial influence and that of control are so close that I say they have the same meaning.

So, when you agree that Jewish-Americans have crucial influence and then later on say that you don't know who controls America; to me, you are making a contradictory statement.

You also focused on my comment that "Jews control much of America". You may failed to take my whole post into context. I emphasized that there are Good Jews and Bad Jews. An example of a Bad Jew is one who claims to be an American but is really acting on behalf of Jewish interests and who places Jewish interests ahead of American interests. The US has convicted a Jewish-America for spying. He did give invaluable secrets to the Israeli government and SERIOUSLY compromised American security. You are probably proud of that, but I doubt you would admit to that in this forum! Israel wants him to be released and has FINALLY admitted that he did spy on behalf of Israel. So when you say that I don't see ALL Jews as Americans you are quite mistaken. Rather, I do see them as Jewish-Americans and so when I say Jews for short, rest assured that I KNOW THEY ARE AMERICANS TOO. I even still believe that the Jew convicted for treason is still an American and not an Israeli!!!! And HE COMMITTED TREASON OF THE HIGHEST DEGREE!! I should call him a sh!t head, but I know that's going to offend you.

You know. Let me tell you a short story. I bunked with a Jew when I was in the Army. We were truly good friends. The guy told me privately that he could never shoot another Jew even if he was the enemy. So, here I am thinking to myself. What if we were at war and approached by an enemy who happened to be a Jew. The enemy, my Jewish friend and myself. Now, I am placed in a position where I have to shoot and perhaps kill to survive ( believe it or not, we were taught not to kill! ) . So, what will my friend do I ask to myself? Will he kill me to protect his enemy Jew? Or will he allow me to kill the enemy Jew? Or will he at least attempt to wound the enemy? I never asked him. But I think I know what would have happened.

Also, you say that "Jewish prominence in every aspect of life in Europe constituted one of the reasons and justifications for political anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust". I think you just made a fantastic statement and I totally agree with you! Again, I have been trying to explain this to young adults. But you know, they've been taught that Hitler killed Jews for another reason. Let me repeat again, it was very terrible what Hitler did and I don't condone what he did by any means! Killing was the worst thing Hitler ever did.

Again, you say that Jews and Gypsies were the only ones targeted for complete annihilation. And so you seem to imply that others who suffered should not receive the same attention as Jews and Gypsies. I must sadly say that of all the comments you have made in your reply to us, this comment is the most shameful of all. It really shows how selfish you really are!!! But, on a positive note, I know there are Good Jews out there.

Lastly, in regards to Ariel Sharon, thank you for acknowledging that he sinned!!

Thank you once again for your reply. I will save it and show it to my friends as needed.

All: WJC is a very well read individual, and apparently realizes to some degree that he is a creation of his own lies:

http://www.prime-web.com/grape/rubashov.htm

I find it difficult to believe that gold would ever slip to $250, especially since it has cost between $200-$250 to mine the ore for years.

But even if it did, I would be first in line to buy my share.

http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u

While in Brazil in 1982 during high inflation, no prices were printed.
At restaurants prices were hand written so to be changed twice a day.
At jewerly store, prices were quoted verbally.

in their next attempt to muster enough support to attack Iraq. This ties in with the U.S. oil Cos visiting Saudi A. recently. The Saudis are desperate, their economy is collapsing & they will now support the U.S.
I expect the U.S. with British support to unilateraly attack Iraq within 6 wks & reduce their oil exports to a trickle. Got to give Clinton credit. This was all carefully planned and orchestrated.

Thank you for a great link. Seemingly endless array of charts, and free.
I bookmarked it.

You are one anti-semitic individual. I have never made such an accusation publicly before but after reading your 20:50 post, I have never seen so much twisting of logic to hold Jews guilty of holding power. Without explicitly stating that you see it as a problem, you have made a court case of it and found Jews guilty of holding crucial influence. Why is this such an issue for you?

Lets assume that it is true for the sake of argument, that Jews hold proportionately more wealth and power than their 2% portion of America. Whats your point? Are you for quotas? Maybe you are a sociologist? If I told you that African-Americans hold proportionately less wealth and power than their population statistics would you make a point of bringing it up as a negative? Somehow I doubt it.

I will read your response and then I will never read your posts again. Goodbye in advance.

Bullish on oil? Look at the chart of Rentech, who have developed a new commercial process for synthetic crude oil - which is much more economical than the conventional Fischer-Tropsch process used by Sasol, etc. Major buy signal on the chart, IMHO.

Yahoo! Finance - RNTK

http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=rntk&d=b

OK, do what you gotta do. Lead the charge against messy79 and his 21:01. Take up yet another day of ego-yada yada. On second thought just save your yada and your less-than-believeable anecdotes for some other site. The whole yada smells of garlic which thrives on engaging others, mostly newbies who are not yet tired of it.

.

http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Mar-Template.idc?artid=19981104013754034?=mar&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=2746

Date: Tue Nov 03 1998 19:40
JP ( From Cyprus on the Mediterrean on the way to the Holy land ) ID#253153:
Contact me before leaving--------
Reify@sitcom.co.il

Take it off site.

Many on this site are bored and some angered by my repetition of my $250 view so I'll make it short. I also am bored by repeating it and by the retorts and don't want to focus on a debate at this point as there isn't anything new to say.

In 1996 gold appeared to me for several reasons to be acting like a commodity that was out of favour. At the time it was about $385 and I sold all my gold holdings except a few Barrick. I suggested in the spring of 1997 that it would fall to its cost of production and then overshoot that figure. The best guess that I could find after about 6 months of sporadic searching was that gold cost about $275 to produce on average in 1996-7. I suggested that the decline of the price would overshoot its cost of production to $250. So far it has reached about $278- I believe-- so far I'm wrong by about $3 plus my expectation of a $25 "overshoot".

The last "best guess" I have seen of the cost of production is now $250. So with the closing of the higher cost mines and the presumed mining of higher grade ore the cost has fallen since 1996-7.

It seems to me that the time to buy --for those who are not day traders- is when the price is about at its cost and to treat gold like a commodity until just before the general public foams at the mouth and wants to buy--ie not while at a premium for the nobility or the lasting value or the enduring nature that is often ascribed to gold and not after it makes the evening news.

The major shortcomings in this idea--that I see--is that despite the accuracy of anticipating about a $105 of a decline the bottom continues to move away as higher cost mines and shafts are closed thereby lowering the cost of production and who knows how long that can continue.

As well it is virtually impossible to get an accurate figure for the cost of gold. Others have suggested--in varying words-- that the major shortcoming is that it is too simple a view and that it doesn't suggest a date for the much looked for bottom.

But it sure beats thinking that at $385 the price was going up.

All: Notice how the markets have been going up during this period when the impeachment proceedings have been on hold, giving the Clinton camp time to regroup? I am not the only one who thinks the markets will weaken considerably when impeachment news comes out again -- and John Crudele has considerable insight -- worth reading!

http://www.nypostonline.com/commentary/5958.htm

Now -- Kenneth Starr is still gathering testimony from those two grand juries -- one in Wash DC, and one in a heavily Republican suburb. Most of his testimony has come out in the last month or so after the Monicagate lies hit the fan -- severely weakening WJC's ability to put a lid on who might testify. Even some of K Starr's star witnesses are getting impatient.

Perhaps John Crudele knows something bad is about to come out. Hillary indicted? WJC hospitalized for drug overdose while in the White House? Any major revelation could upset the markets -- just like with president Nixon before him.

http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=^TWII&d=3mm

tanking while Nikkei rises. hmmmmmm....

The pog survey is nearly up to five hundred votes. That's
probably close to the world's present population of goldbugs.

So, let me get this straight. The Dow was unchanged because of the elections? A statistical oddity. The net change was 0.00.

So the reasoning goes something like this, if the R's win, then the stock market tanks because their policies are bad for the market????

If the D's win, then all is well because Slick won't be impeached and the market can go higher?

If the latter is to be accepted, then the former must be true. Hmmmm, weren't the R's responsible for the policies that allowed the market to go higher?

Hmmmmm, I think this spin business has gone totally out of control. So, the next thing to go totally out of control is....

Wonder what'll happen if the markets don't get another rate cut this month, or better than that, what will bonds do ? Probably get more interesting before it gets less. Haven't heard anything but bullish "it's all over and things aren't bad" news for weeks now. Have the markets returned to baseline ? Business as usual ? Or have we been seeing a bear market rally. Wonder what the smart money is on.

http://www.russiatoday.com/rtoday/business/news/03.html

ravenfire: Could be that our long awaited mainland China implosion is about to occur.

China will not be that severely affected, but their creditors/financiers might be in for a big surprise during a sudden devaluation: Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and ?Europe.

I think we should watch the Hong Kong markets very closely for signs of instability. News out of mainland China will be far and few between until the dam breaks. From what I know about the Communist Chinese, the leaders will try to hang on to the illusion that all is well -- for as long as they can. Boom and bust cycles are typical there --

There is no particular reason why any commodity must bottom at its cost of production. As you have already anticipated, there can be potential overshoot of that number. Recently many of the Ag commodities have been selling below the cost of production. Here in the NW orchardists are allowing apples to rot on the ground because the cost of picking is more than their commercial value for juice or fresh fruit. Wheat farmers are again, hat in hand to the taxpayer for bailouts.

So, at the end of the day POG 250 is just reasonable as 275. With one major difference from the past: Investment demand is rising. Even as supply appears to be tailing off. As well, PM production cannot ramp up as quickly to sudden demand, as can oil, soybeans or corn. Especially if the average fellow begins to take a renewed interest in what's happening around him.

BTW, how you gonna solve the heat problem????

Those Goose Bumps I feel!

Old Warriors call it Battle Frost,

The Glow of The Battle-Imminent.



So Gold is Cheap My Man? Says I.

So Cheap...So Cheap, Says He!

So Good, And Oh, So Wonderful, Says I.



Grown Men run and Strong Men

-Beg For Mercy-

But a Sure Mark is the Price

-And Falling

-And Falling Lower.



So Gold is Cheap My Man? Says I.

So Cheap...So Cheap, Says He!

So Good, And Oh, So Wonderful, Says I.



Grown Men run and Strong Men

-Beg For Mercy-

But a Sure Mark is the Price

-And Falling

-And Falling Lower.



Now, The Blast of The Bugle,

-The Lurch of Men-and-Machine.



And The Gold Thing Does Its Thing

-As-Before-and-Always-



-Dash Now or Dust Your Bags-

I've come to the conclusion that I am the perfect contrary indicator. ( enough to put Puetz to shame ) The last several trades I've made have exactly precipitated the opposite move in the indexes. This morning I bailed from my Nekkeis- and, relieved of the burden of my call options, it has risen like a loaf of bread.

I also got out of my XAUs, so I can sleep well tonight knowing that tomorrow gold will see $350. I believe I have discovered the perfect stock trade; I'll simply e-mail my intentions to myself- and then do the opposite.

I also took possession of some newly minted, brilliant uncirculated put options on the dow today; so that market will rise tomorrow like the tumescent ardor of a young man.

For a *small* subscription fee, payable weekly, I would be willing to share my good discovery with my friends here a Kitco. You will get a nightly e-mail of my intentions- simply palce your contrary positions, and soon become awash with money.

Personal checks accepted. ( sorry, no massa card )

What is a "Jewish sympathizer"? I seem to recall this rhetoric appearing in some literature from a certain political belief. I can't quite put my finger on it though. Can you help out here?

sorry to disappoint you, sir, but contrary indicators only work as long as they themselves don't start using themselves as indicators.

better yet if they don't realize they are contrary indicators...hehe

hehehe.... if the obsidian contrary indicator did work, though, all of us on kitco would be rich, no?

murphy's law ( as applies to you ) - your record of contrariness will not work as long as you try to make money from it.

Mr. Bush is now Governor of Florida. I guess the Scumbaggers nailed Damato.

regardless of the growing inventories of stuff in China, they still have an enormous amount of foreign reserves, courtesy of many years of export-driven growth.

do not underestimate the Chinese. they are arguably amongst the best businessmen around. ( whether this capability has percolated to the top echelons of government or not, I do not know )

Gold price on April 27th: 316

Gold price today: 290

Date: Fri Apr 24 1998 14:32
farfel ( @ALL...This is NOT euphemistic.... ) ID#340302:
MONDAY...GOLD SHORT SQUEEZE ALERT!! GOLD SHORT SQUEEZE ALERT!!

Thanks.

F*

Date: Mon Apr 27 1998 10:44
farfel ( @ALL...please prepare yourselves for a little delight.. ) ID#340302:

Once again, I remain EXTREMELY BULLISH on GOLD. I KNOW a short squeeze is looming just around the corner. Oh, yes, I do.

...a concerted gold short squeeze is in the works. Try and get on board before the upspike.

Gentlemen, you WILL enjoy the ride.

Thanks.

F*

Don't worry obsidian the rise wan't based on anything much rational. Just one person's opinion.
http://www.nikkei.co.jp/enews/TNKS/stox/

Got arrowheads?

That's ok, grind me under your heel while I'm down..rain on my parade...dash my last hope... why don't ya kick my dog while your at it....

Does that mean I'm condemed to this endless cycle of ruin? Doc! Doc! puleeeze, tell me it ain't so!

click on the morning stock report button upper left.

http://www.nikkei.co.jp/enews/TNKS/stox/

We at Kitco would be glade to submit your name to the HULBERT FINANCIAL
TIMING INDICATOR list for moast accurate contrary timing device. Please advise us to your next trade before you do it!!
Also playing options is almost a sure fire way to lose your money. 98% of all options players lose thier money. Good luck though if you like it.

Do you have a file on this guy or do you just go back and pick one at random?

are what make this forum. Continue giving your views and gut feelings
it's good, even if not alway right. Let the reader decide for himself,
or herself.

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha66.gif

Why do I see the near term of the markets in a positive light, but the
long term in a negative one. Well the chart tells me that the top that
was recently made, has to be tested. This should mean that the dollar
should strengthen near term, which I feel is bullish for US markets.

Gold, I agree with the Voyeur Professor, who so eloquently states his
views, and I enjoy reading his comments, has been languishing in this
area for some time, and that is a frustrating situation for many, incl-
uding myself, but I see this as a very decent size base building process
and after the long drop from 1980, it is a bullish sign for the future.

Many of the long term gold charts are showing increased volume, while
in this base building period, this I interpret as a very positive sign
and all it takes on the part of the investor in gold is to be patient
and keep the faith.

I've been accused of seeing gold through rose colored glasses, well there
maybe some truth to this, and why not? For any out there that have access
to charts that date back say 30 years, I ask you to look at Dome mining
as one of several examples, which btw is now PDG, and you will see an
uptrend, and what looks like a very very large pattern building from the
1980 period that should look good to long term holders. As should the
long term chart of the base metal which has come from the $32 level to
$800 plus and has now corrected, IMHO. And as RJ has pointed out many
times, and I agree, platinum has made similar patterns and I still think
is basing at current levels for a strong move up.

Good luck to all the faithful, and non faithful as well.

I pick them at random, there are so many to choose from.

Reminds me of blade runner. ( course, I couldn't read anything )

Shalom Reify! Thanks for the encouraging words.
Ezekiel

ya just gotta love it...what a country...

Wednesday, November 4, 1998

Volume 3 No: 824 Issued: 10:00 a.m. JST

Stocks Open Sharply Up After

Strategist Reweighs Japan

TOKYO ( Dow Jones ) -Tokyo stocks are opening sharply

higher Wednesday after a widely-respected U.S. strategist

increased his investment weighting on Japan.

Morgan Stanley's global strategist Barton Biggs upped his

Japan weighting to 75% of the Morgan Stanley Capital

International Index from 40% and said, "Japan could be the

next great trade," according to a summary of the company's

morning equity research meeting.

"Everyone believes Japan is beyond redemption, but the

Japanese market is truly cheap and Japan is at exactly the

opposite end of the economic, market and sentiment cycle as

the U.S.," Biggs said.

At 0011 GMT ( 7:11 p.m. EST Tuesday ) , the Nikkei 225

stock average was up 403.75 points at 14,356.50. The Tokyo

Stock Exchange was closed Tuesday for a national holiday;

on Monday, the average rose 388.24 points to 13,952.75.

Investors were net buyers of Japanese stocks at 11 foreign

brokerages before the opening Wednesday, market sources

said, quoted by Kyodo news agency. There were 22 million

shares of sell orders against 40 million of buys.

from that nikkei site.

no offence meant, sir. fyi, i've been adding more index puts lately. so far this year, i've been losing money myself. overall, at least. i didn't quite qualify as the perfect contrary indicator.

well, maybe times are a-changin'... hope springs eternal

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981103/bmu.html

what? no! the economy is booming, right? how can there be a lower demand for flights? where's that 3.3% growth gone to?

hehehehe.... hmmmm..........

peace brother. :- )

Also it is widely believed that mining the nickel ore in Sudbury costs more than it is being sold at so over running the cost of production is not a fanciful idea and not restricted to gold or apples.

How am I going to solve the heating problem-- so far I don't know. A generator is a possibility but there is no way to store the fuel in sufficient quantity to last 4-5 months or the 2-3 years than some suggest is necessary. I'm now looking into a gas fireplace. It doesn't require electricity to start, costs about C$2000 to install and there is less chance of a problem with natural gas than with electricity. And if the Y2k problem turns out to be just the usual end of century hysteria--a nice feature to add to the house. But we know it is unlikely to be that simple.

This is getting old but I still see the need to dust off this old chestnut and post it again, It speaks for itself.

Oh one more thing during the middle ages the jews were forbidden to hold land let alone to farm. The christains in fact excluded them from doing anything else but lend money as the church forbid any christian to charge interest on a loan made to another christian, the Jews were forced into banking, they had no other way to earn their bread. This will once again show the error of many laws and regulation: that they will produce the opposite result than what they were intended to do. I doubt the Europeans intended to start a tradition of wealth in the Jewish people back then but that is what happen. Get use to it or learn something from these most successful capitalist. Oh by the way I'm a Irish Catholic who has studied history and learned a lot by my readings of the Jews.

*********************************************************************

Recently there were some excellent posts on gold by John Kutyn and some not so good on the House of Rothschild and central banks by others. After giving the efforts of these gentlemen some thought, I decided to give an input on these subjects. I'm inclined to hitch my fate to the precious yellow. There are some reasons for this, one is that the banks once before tried to suppress the price of gold during the days of the "London Gold Pool" in the early and middle 1960's. They cried "Uncle" after a long and valiant attempt to keep gold at US$35.00, then Uncle Sam himself called it quits in 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window to foreign bank conversion of US dollars for US gold. To date no one on earth has proven that they were bigger than the markets, ask the Rockefellers, OPEC or any other cartel in the history of mankind. Control is a temporary thing. The DeBeers diamond cartel seems to be the most successful to date but their control stemmed from their control of S. Africa's diamond fields. Diamonds are not as rare as once thought nor are they only found in S. Africa. I suspect they will one day lose their control of the price of diamonds as production comes to the market place from sundry other countries out side of Debeers' cartel.

I remember reading in Barron's some years ago where Malaysia was dictating the price of tin for many a year, like DeBeers they gave their product's price a upward bias, to do so they had to keep tin stock off the market in warehouses. At the start it was good for the cartel but at some point reality was forced upon the tin cartel and to recoup costs, the excess stock was sold at forced liquidation prices. Tin dropped and the protected tin mining industry in Malaysia suffered for years until the imbalances from the hoarded stockpile was feed into the real economy. I wonder how many beautiful gems are being stored in vaults somewhere by DeBeers? There are all to many instances where powerful forces, usually working in conjunction with a government somewhere, are at odds with the market pricing mechanism. Usually cartels want a higher price, but in the case of gold the dollar cartel will always desires a lower gold price, the lower the better as increasing gold prices implies an increased production of US$ and possibly some doubt in the full faith and credit of the US Government. I believe the current low gold prices are the true measure of desperation the dollar cartel is currently feeling. In a free market, the US$ of the latter half of the 20th century could not compete with a barbaric relic like gold. In the end the manipulation of any cartel will always produce the opposite result than what the cartel had desired, often the correction is violent. Typically in the end the cartel gets in so deep that the final actions are acts of desperation by desperate men no longer concerned about maximize profit ( or personal power ) but rather are intent upon economic or personal survival. With gold and the US$ I believe history will show ( once again ) that no one is bigger than the markets.

The issue of gold being made illegal and a one world currency is forced upon the world I think would be very difficult to achieve on a global basis. A strong case can be made that China, India, and many former colonies of the Europeans nations would be unwilling to play that game, Japan too is getting tired of being The United States Government's little whipping boy. Lord knows these countries have more than a little blame for the condition they find themselves in, however, if their politicians are worth their salt, they will find someone to place all the blame on for their current problems. The long gone colonial masters would be perfect, blame it on the British! It will not be harder to whip up the battered masses in SE Asia against the "New World Currency" ( same as the New World Order ) than it is to whip up hatred for the CIA for selling crack cocaine in South Central L.A. The idea is ridiculous but as we are talking about cartels, well how knows but really who cares in South Central L.A. They're mad and upset and just need someone or something to strike out against, the CIA will do. Hate is as addictive as crack and many times as dangerous to civilized society.

I believe that the majority of the world population lies outside the control of the Rothschilds and George Soros. If the third world refuses to do business with this new Rothschild's inspired fiat currency and insist upon a currency that meets with their approval, it will be in their interest, and power of these Pacific Nations to insist upon a fair playing field when doing business with the Atlantic Nations. What would the currency gods of this new currency cartel do if they created a new paper standard and then over half of the world refused to accept it as payment? No doubt the currency cartel would refuse to sell cars, computers, steel, oil to Asia Inc, the only question would be if the boycott was put in effect before or after the high tariffs were in place to keep the Atlantic nation's cars, computers, steel and oil out of Asia Inc! The so called Third world is no longer an area that lacks world class production capability or the brains to manage industry, they can go it alone if need be for both basic materials or high caliber finished goods. The US can't get our allies to stop trading with the very sinister Iraqis, are the new masters of the universe going to pull out all stops for the crippling our former Asian Allies for not accepting this new fiat currency? I think not! There would be some difficulties for an unseen cabal to force a undesirable currency upon what will one day be a solvent S.E. Asia. Remember, as far as the current problems in S.E. Asia are concerned "they too shall pass".

The worst nightmare a puppet master can have is for someone to cut his strings. Reading Malaysian and other SE Asian nations news papers on the Internet, it seems that they are rather peeved at George Soros right now, I don't think he could get them to buy a used car from him let alone a new fiat currency. Think about this; the world's Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, and Chinese have no connections, cultural or otherwise, with Jewish bankers that could possibly entice them to surrender control over their territories, economies, or national wealth. How would anyone push around billions of people who are economically formidable on their own right and now, in a very post-colonial way, will demand respect?

I think the House of Rothschild is being much maligned by people who have only a superficial understanding of how the real world works. The moneyed jews in the middle ages could tell the Rothschilds a thing or two about doing business in a hostile culture. You don't make King Richard do anything in Merry old England. But then, I suspect that the House of Rothschilds may already know this. Their is danger in wagering your capitol in a hostile environment, risk capital expect a premium. I'm not saying bankers, Jewish or other wise wont try to get the best part a deal, even to the point of taking people to the cleaners; they do. I would do it if I could, and if your honest you'll admit that you never called your broker to give back your capitol gains to bail out some poor soul that was on the losing side of that grand slam trade you made a killing on.

I think only a Marxist could be so willfully ignorant as to waste time in plotting ways to conquer the world: Lenin and that lot dreamed of total world domination as did the leader of the NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY, Adolph Hitler himself. If you doubt Hitler's socialism, you should read the diaries of the Nazi's Minister of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment, Dr. Goebbels. He had no problems with his beloved swastika on a field of red. The Nazi's solution for saving the world from this Jewish Banker's obsession with total world domination was WWII. Now some people have gone to great lengths informing us of a great problem with the Rothschilds and co-conspiring banks diabolical design of subduing the world with a one world fiat currency that will destroy all human happiness. Now I'm interested in hearing from those people just what is your solution to this Jewish Banker question? I would like to hear how you would propose to deal with this clear and present danger. Don't be shy, remember, Comrade Stalin's motto: "you can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs". In the 20th century were you see big government and the ravages it brings, think socialism, not capitalistic Jewish Bankers!

If there is one item I would like to see feedback from readers of this posting, it would be on how a financial collapse in a country would differ from one engineered by Jewish bankers headed by the Rothschilds from say a financial collapse engineered by citizens of Western Democracies themselves by voting in politicians who only did what they were sent to the nations capitol to do: send home the pork at no cost to the voters. I don't pretend to speak for the world, just the U.S. and the problems we have over here don't require the House of Rothschild to explain what is going to happen. Since Roosevelt, in America, we have sent people into office that spent the US Treasury into the poor house and gave us tax breaks and incentives to entice the voters to do like wise. For politicians to have done otherwise would have ended many a brilliant political career. So what would the difference be? I spent many hours doing corrective maintenance on electronics, one of the first things I learnt was you can't fix anything until you can identify the malfunction. I put it to you that the malfunction in America is the morals of the voters who vote in people to office do for them that which they refuse to do themselves, be responsible. In America, we have placed layers of bureaucracy between us and our risks from medical emergencies to retiring in some comfort. "What fools these voter be". We gave our treasure to scoundrels who spent that and then pledged our children's future for the purchase of a ticket for to fools paradise. There use to be a cartoon in the US called "Pogo", and Pogo had a saying "we have met the enemy and he is us."

I like a good conspiracy theory as well as anyone, but the after 1,500 years of worrying about the Jewish bankers obsession with dominating all of Christendom, I for one have finally concluded that if this is so, then the Jewish Bankers they are truly the gang that couldn't shoot straight. For a change I for one would enjoy a conspiracy with the Knights Templars, after all the Templars have been underground since 1314 AD. Most people have never heard of the Knights of the Temple, but let me assure you they walk among us! You will not find any record of tax payment on Templar profits or reference of this organization in any nations where they now currently plot and scheme. Granted a Satanic charter from the Roman Anti-Christ himself, these warrior monks have for 700 years polluted not only every government on earth but also the Free Masons, Italian Mafia, and the Kennedy Family. Why wont a Kennedy ever do hard time, they're Irish Templars!

its time to have bought.

The University of Florida Department of Forestry was experimenting with a type of Gas Generator which operated by extracting gases from pine logs at high temperatures and subsequently burning said gases as a fuel supply for an electric generator. This system might prove of use to people in Northern climes. You can contact UF by e-mail.

thanks I'll look into it.

Several years ago I wanted to replace a wood stove in the family room. We live in a flood plain and our primary living space is 11 ft up. I didn't relish the idea of packing wood up and ashes down. The solution was an attractive cast iron stove fed by natural gas. It isn't as hot as wood but it served us well during the flood of Feb 96. ...... And an easy to use delight on a wet and cold winter evening. Just flick the switch and its instant heat with no fuss or bother. All in all, a good choice.

Would someone get the keys from MJPL?

ravenfire: Agreed. I know from many years of interaction that the business acumen of the Chinese is worthy of great respect. But -- I am referring to the Chinese leaders, who are much less flexible and resourceful. Yes -- they do have considerable reserves -- but it was only a few days ago when they panicked a bit -- when their reserves did not go up with a favorable balance of trade. Shutting down all foreign exchange except central bank activity does not bode well for any company doing business in China. We also know that many mainland Chinese banks are in severe trouble -- and that otherwise financially sound Chinese firms are caught up in a credit squeeze not of their own doing.

I do not know when the financial crisis will hit the boiling point in China, but it may be a sudden event when it comes. Their government is still totalitarian, and subject to characteristic inflexibility -- despite their far superior behavior in comparison to the Russian leaders.

Several years ago I wanted to replace a wood stove in the family room. We live in a flood plain and our primary living space is 11 ft up. I didn't relish the idea of packing wood up and ashes down. The solution was an attractive cast iron stove fed by natural gas. It isn't as hot as wood but it served us well during the flood of Feb 96. ...... And an easy to use delight on a wet and cold winter evening. Just flick the switch and its instant heat with no fuss or bother. All in all, a good choice.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe/globehtml/306/Comstock_Partners_Capital_Value_kee.shtml

Here is my first question--how do they pump natural gas to Ontario from Alberta?

Several years ago I wanted to replace a wood stove in the family room. We live in a flood plain and our primary living space is 11 ft up. I didn't relish the idea of packing wood up and ashes down. The solution was an attractive cast iron stove fed by natural gas. It isn't as hot as wood but it served us well during the flood of Feb 96. ...... And an easy to use delight on a wet and cold winter evening. Just flick the switch and its instant heat with no fuss or bother. All in all, a good choice.

Am in agreement about your Gold Short Squeeze. It agrees with the tyechnical picture. See the sight below A must for all who follow gold. Where does your info originate from and when is this to happen. It appears to me we are close to the turn now. Too much bearish sentiment at Kitco validates my reasoning.

http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.htmlAm

http://www.golden-eagle.com/gold_digest_98/droke110398.htm1Am

Mercedes, Ford, Honda, Toyota, General Motors in fact almost all car companies excepting Volvo and Saab, are posting double digit gains over last years sales. Also indeedy even, these same giant manufacturers are actively switching back to platinum to insure continuity of supply.

Last year was a record year for car sales, and they are selling more this year.

Mercedes up 17.5%, Toyota up 26%.. hasn't anybody told these car buyers that a recession is looming? Seems they care little for such talk, they would rather just spend the $.

The end of session report today also indicated that Japanese industrial users are building platinum inventories in anticipation of another cessation of Russian shipments. Where have we heard that before?. Oh yeah, from me, several months ago.

I was seriously wrong about platinum this summer ( sorry Nick@ ) . The market forces coming into play now, I had thought would materialize by June. So I was way to early on this, but the pieces are coming together as I tap on these keys.

When platinum stops going down, it will explode upwards in a wave of short covering. That shorts covered at $335 is ample evidence that there is little appetite to hold these positions into record lows.

I'm still buying the stuff. I like it.

Uh Huh

Delete "en" from golden and just type gold

( having connect problems this evening ) ...Studio R is probably a better bet on that question but I would imagine they utilize, to great extent, natural well pressure. With some augmentation along the way. ...... electricity, unfortunately. ..... Self contained natural gas fired generators maybe??? That'd be a natural.

Seems to me that the timing of Information Flow ( SPIN is another thing ) , is the one thing that politicians/reserve chairmen etc. actually have some ability to directly control or influence.

Were negative information - more bank problems etc. to have come out during the last few weeks, the resulting swings in the markets could have been extreme - requiring extreme reactions. Smooth sailing is the key, not extremes of course correction.

Today, we KNOW that the impeachment is not a forgone conclusion - no republican 2/3 majority, and the waters, at least immediately ahead, appear calm.

Might it not therefore be the time to a ) allow some negative stuff to come out, and b ) take the lid off gold to "release" the pressure. It benefits none of them to have large sentiment presssures building up anywhere. In so far as sooner or later stuff comes out so to speak.

Thus Gold in 2-4 weeks at 310 ( not exploding to 350++++ ) seems possible ( even logical ) - a target arrived at calmly without too much momentum to carry it too much further....because its rise would be against an equally positive backdrop of a nicely rising Nikkei and shortterm positive DOW....everybody's happy ( ish ) .

And yes, the XAU could pop up as well without it seeming a flight to quality movement.

Comments from you experts ?

I think you are right. I have a few shares in Trans Canada Power which is a spin off from Trans Canada Pipelines. They pump most/all the natural gas from Alberta to Ontario and to a great part of the Northern US. The Power they generate is sold to Ontario Hydro so they may be able to pump natural gas even if Gary North's prediction of a failure of the electric grid is correct. The question is relatively clear the answer may take a while

Any change in the situation for PL Eagles??

http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/Markets/Swing.jpg

Classic rolling over top.

Watch out below. ^o-o^

---------------------------------
Also the US is coming awake.
My y2k webpage had its normal 200 odd hits.

But my survival page has had over 2500 hits in one day.
Well up from it's normal 200 odd hits.
http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/Markets/Alternative.htm

Seems many in the US are no longer interested in learning about Y2k.
They are more interested in learning what they can do for survival.

Don't wait till the rush happens.^o-o^

Zeke: What keys are you talking about. I must know if you see me as a hero of personal liberty and tolerence or lurker whose claim to Kitco fame was his only posting worth a *hit.

Earl: I'm from Minnesota Home of Governor Jesse ( The Body ) Ventura and some damn cold weather. Does your gas stove require electricity? I have a wood burning stove and it work great but like you said the wood and ash are a problem. I might convert if there is a gas stove that will work with out assistance from Norther States Power.

Have you considering shorting gold ? : )

esotericist: I like the way you think. The spinmeisters have been getting better over the years at molding public opinion. This clearly applies to politics, and it takes very little extension of this logic to see that it is used just as effectively to control the US dollar price of gold. How else can one maintain the popular 'spend us all into prosperity' approach that pervades modern US or European politics?

Compound this with the relatively new use of derivatives to control the price of gold ( gold market a much thinner market than the dollar market ) , and we have a very powerful method of keeping the dollar price of gold down.

So -- the same type of spin used to keep WJC in power must be used to keep the price of gold down, and the dollar and the markets up. When the party ends, it is clear which way the fortunes of WJC, the US dollar, and the US markets will go. This is something that the Oldman, one of the best gold/spoos traders that occasionally posts on Kitco says: 'The fortunes of WJC and the markets are linked -- both will go up and down together'. A corollary to this is that when the party ends -- the price of gold will eventually go up -- and the value of the US dollar down.

Unfortunately one problem with this scenario is that gold may not rally significantly until the very fabric of the illusion woven by our politicians starts to unravel -- so we probably won't like the times that come with it.

One thing that might prevent a major drop in the value of the US dollar when the party ends would be a bigger financial crisis in some other currency, making the dollar look good by comparison.

......you think natural gas will be easy available when no electricity is? I wonder?

Platinum American Eagles..... Got any?

Huh uh, nope, not even some indeedy.

Got some Platinum Maple Leafs in, but I don't know how many we have left. The Eagles will take a week or two at the minimum.

They may still whack platinum back to $329 to shake out the weak longs, but it should be all up from there.

OK

The madness of a modern Mad Sovereign is the madness of a crowd, the mass; the secret of his success is secrecy.

The modern Mad Sovereign controls the mass by process secrecy, media secrecy, and the secret ballot. Process is by administrative agency, bureau, and law court rules which are secret by reason of their complexity and terminology. What the media does not broadcast is virtually secret. ( Have you heard of the Missouri Twenty ? )

When there were Electors ( a word from the Constitution ) in America, elections were vive voce, out loud, and in the open. Your individuality, self, and conscience were not dissolved in the anonymity of the mass. Now they they are.

In the beginning only male land holders elected. The vote of the head of the family was the vote of and for one family unit, the basic unit of society. You could not secretly vote to steal legally from your neighbor to subsidize yourself to or subsidize against matrimony or the family, or against the common good. Now, you can. Now, it is even possible for a secret few in the right places on election eve to rig the outcome. Until you have been in a polling place after it closes, you cannot fully understand the possibilities.

Would a sane man commit the security of his life, his liberty, and his pursuit of happiness to the vote of a secret crowd and a rigged count? The restructured government we have is not the government that was founded. Plain spoken, if you vote as a registered voter, you are yourself temporarily insame and enabling a Mad Sovereign. And you are participating in treason to the Constitution, the rule of Law, and government by consent of the governed.

JTF - thanks for your analysis...

"Unfortunately one problem with this scenario is that gold may not rally significantly until the very fabric of the illusion woven by our politicians starts to unravel -- so we probably won't like the times that come with it. "

Agreed entirely.

Though I was ( just for a change ) trying to look a mere month ahead. A rational prediction of short term events that would confirm some "where the power's at and how it works" assumptions I'm developing.

I believe that the timeframe for a gold explosion with all the other socio-economic dislocations that will be going on at that time is a little way out further in the future..and I have a sompelling need to make some money sooner rather than later !!!

( Incidently JTF - in an off-kitco converation I'm having, someone recommended I keep an eye out for you here - physics, space expertise etc?....feel free to drop me a line on paulw@myself.com - there's something leftfield I want to explore that might require your line of expertise. )

for 10 years the silver consumers ( i.e. kodak, electronics cos, etc ) have been able to buy silver very cheap and just go into the mkt anytime they wanted. this would save them a great deal of carrying/storage costs plus having cheap silver. the lower the comex stocks go, the more chance there is for the price to rise which would be a great inconvenience to these consumers. i am just wondering if it might be worthwhile for these consumers to keep the comex stocks as high as possible. this is just conjecture. any thoughts?

Are you then saying I shouldn't vote but simply strap me .44 and walk?

Selby,Earl: I find it hard to believe that this pipeline is dependent in electricity. I think most natural gas wells have enough of a pressure head on them that an electric generator could be operated as a cheap local source of electricity. A little leapfrogging, and one could imagine electric pumps all along the pipeline without any need for an external source of electricity.

In the US -- with fewer rural locations -- some pipelines might have become dependent on local electricity ( already there ) so the economics might be different -- as well as the y2k consequences.

Ever been in Bakersfield Calif when the electricity goes out? I have -- stuck right in the middle of one of Califs major refineries -- but no way to get the gasoline from the gas stations. I was stuck until I spotted a farmer with his own gasoline truck going by.

Gasoline supplies are far more vulnerable than natural gas.

Reading a few postings of last night suggests that the Knight Templars are alive and well on Kitco.
Would MJPL believe that?

Oleman is long beans, pigs, and equities. Says the trend is up, and I sure hate being on the other side of an Oleman trade, even if it did pay off a few times. It's kinda like betting against an APH call.