Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:00 - ID#408170)
Canada's Placer Dome
and other mining companies. ( In SIGHTINGS.? )

SENIOR executive at Barclays [bank] has warned people to sell
their homes, stockpile their cash and buy gold in case of a global
economic collapse caused by the millennium computer bug.

"Make no mistake, Roswell happened. I've seen secret files which
show the government knew about it - but decided not to tell the
public." - Edgar ( Moon Walk ) Mitchell
Maybe he used ( another ) type of "lander".

Strong Evidence Suggests Whites Settled The Americas Before Indians?

I could keep going but, you get the picture....

Have fun..RB

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:21 - ID#190411)
Were you the guy that was so mean to farfel the unpronouncable, when you were a kid?
Did you really hang around with him in Highskool, after he waxed your @55?
Did he bloody your ear as he does now?
Is there going to be a short squeeze?

I recall when farfel got as ugly as anything that I have ever seen on the internet, that LGB came to his defense in an offhand way. He did say that farfel would make some calls which was more than another denizen of Southern California.
farfel threatened most everyone here with death, to be carried out by the JDL.
This last attack on rich is just a trifle much.
Consider the source of the attack.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:23 - ID#25257)
And the Phoo Bird Says, PHOOOOOOOEY!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:25 - ID#35757)
@ravenfire @obsidian
This is correct. Murphy's Law is recursive. You cannot make it rain by washing your car.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:30 - ID#25257)
On the Joe Frick Website it is predicted that the .44 will be very fashionable within the next 5 years. Joe also says that those who resist this fad will become Album Fodder!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:31 - ID#190411)
I did one last vote today. I have no illusions about the security of the ballot. The electronic ballot has all of the security of electronic paper money.
I'll take the constitutional metal money, and a paper ballot.
Keep your wits about you, Sir.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:32 - ID#286224)
Are you in MN

...swp ( Roseville, MN )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:33 - ID#284255)
Swing chart again

Cory's latest works. ****MUST READ***

Analysis------------ Infomagic --------------------- CHARLOTTE'S WEB

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:40 - ID#257312)
FOX News Says Jessie "The Body" Ventura Wins Minnessota Governorship

After his victory, Ventura kicked his opponent and slammed his head into the turn buckle.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:41 - ID#190411)
Voters for leviathan

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:44 - ID#190411)
Thanks, Auric
Burst out laughing.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:47 - ID#25257)
Auric!? Gee, I didn't notice the boat coming in.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:48 - ID#284255)
JTF - Natural Gas
From my reading on the subject, 'Natural Gas' is very much in risk.

The systems are full of embedded chips.
Pressure, temp controls etc.

Some revealing info here
Risks in the Natural Gas Industry

Natural Gas: A Vital But Noncompliant Industry

(Wed Nov 04 1998 00:56 - ID#288232)

getting tired of the religous/ethnic bullsh!t here lately...

fixing to chop-asaki the sh!t out of a whole bunch of
high horse gumblios......get down from the steed........
the net recognizes their needs.............................
avoid the steed.

us to bomb iraq with the uk......oil to the moon as soon
as saudi goes the way of the tet offensive........into the


(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:02 - ID#238422)
MJPL, your 22:41.
Do not like very long posts, but this one was very
educational...Logical analysis of history is something
that I really respect. Thank you, read with interest.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:02 - ID#284255)
Yahoo News
Europe Faces Early Hit From Computer Bug
``European governments and public sector organizations have only spent between five and 10 percent of what it needs to fix their systems,''

``The public sector is the biggest danger here. They're not doing the work at all,''

Kyte said European governments were saying plenty but doing little.

``The federal government in the U.S. has not done a great job either, but at least it has been open about it,''

Year 2000, EMU Cloud Technology Firms' Future

``Year 2000 and EMU phenomena will cause massive enterprise ( business ) disruption and dislocation,''

``Y2K ( year 2000 ) compliance is not just your own problem. You are vulnerable to the weakest link in your supply chain,''

``Most businesses in Europe haven't yet looked at the implications of the Euro,''

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:04 - ID#257151)
As all Melburnians know, it's not just the gas going off that's a problem, but, the turning on of the gas is much more dangerous.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:19 - ID#367411)
RJ @ Others who want Pt American Eagles
It appears that a large number of the Pt Ealges ended up in Japan....a local store in Kyoto has about 13 on hand, and can get 50 for me within 3 days....I suspect they have a LOT of them on at their main office....same for Canadian many as you want.....

It would probably be a good place to stock up, but you have to pay 5% sales tax......anyone know how to buy in Japan without paying the sales tax??



John Disney
(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:21 - ID#24135)
the wormhead question ..
for Mozel ..
that's what I was getting at .. a brilliant exposition.

Mike K
(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:24 - ID#153283)
Good job Sharefin
From the Gary North site
Subject: A Tremendous Site: Links to Sites on on Personal Preparation
Comment: Here is the place to start searching for information if you're
convinced that you must make preparations for the Millennium Bug's

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:26 - ID#288232)

i worked in the gas industry for years....all of the
major arteries are computer controlled....i helped
install the first electronic gas measurement/controllers
used by mobil oil in gas plants and pipelines...

we used gas from flowing wells to power a variety of
pumps and generators in remote locations. it was entirely
self-sufficient with the exception of lube-oil.

don't think for a second that the petrol industry is anywhere
near compliant.....i know.......being in I/E, PLC's and
the control and distribution of hydrocarbons....we had
major shut-downs due to 1 rtd giving transient readings
on p.or.t....any one of them causing total shut-down
of huge gas well ( s ) turn causing the huge plants up
and down the houston ship channel to flare gas and disrupt
the product stream....all taking hours to correct, and all
caused by 1 ( ONE ) gas well i operated outside of Dayton, TX...

when my 50MMSCFD gas well shut-in from some minor bullsh!t
rtd malfunctioning.......the resulting chaos from VOLUMETRIC
reduction was complete plant shut-downs....through-put in
large gas plants is critical for product purity.....create
a bobble in the system.........the system collapses.... the
product denegrated....

an individual can easily utilize a low flow gas well to
provide 'casing head gas' used by ALL of the old timers
to power their tractors and old cars for free.....know why?
it was considered an un-wanted by-product and burned or
dumped onto the land until they realized it made the natural
gas more valuable due to increased btu's.....same with
natural gas....we used to burn it as an un-wanted by-product
of the liquids.....know how?'s.easy!

yes........get golf, food, guns, water, and a gas well will need me to make it work.....i'm
cheap...kind of like mad max...less the midget dude...... own kingdom surrounded by gas, gold, and bugs...
some smoke-signals would be nice.....tambien.


lefty kiwi
(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:31 - ID#32176)
buy gold its very cheap now
only 528 votes so far on Kitco gold price survey
lets face it their are not many goldbugs in the world

528 votes is so few Worldwide ( if you are a true goldbug you have to visit this site at least once in 24 hours....agreed ??? )

Get physical gold and hold it thriugh thick and thin

the CB's when they decide to revalue their gold ( which is most of it ) will not mind making 528 people wealthy when everybody else is poor ...
buy physical gold its cheap
options futures shares etc ..... ( even silver ) THEY AINT GOLD .

John Disney
(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:33 - ID#24135)
.. are Jews intelligent ??
For farfel ..
I have read ( Bell Curve ) that Jews score better than
most on IQ tests. This has worried me as I fear they
may be punished in some way for this troublesome trait
by their less gifted compatriots.
In this regard, I commend you for your never
ending massive individual effort to bring the average
Jewish intelligence level more into line with the rest
of us..
I proudly state that my mother in law also continues
to do her bit.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:35 - ID#227238)
Hey gas man, can you pass a little. {:- ) ) ....... One a them low pressure low volume wells in my backyard would do very nicely, thank you very much. ....... 3-4 beers 'n I can supply most of eastern Canada for at least a day or two.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:38 - ID#35757)
John Disney
Very clever....but ugly.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:39 - ID#288232)

earl my friend....

the ssm awaits you beck and call....
i'll operate your gas wells anytime.....
or advise on where to send your golf for

yar.....later...gotta fly....bye....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:45 - ID#433143)
ohhhh the irony!! btw clinton announces he has glaucoma sometimes! heh j/k

YES 540006 58% WIN
NO 391159 42%
% of precincts reporting: 60

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:46 - ID#153102)
You must rescind your voter registration application in order to cancel the franchise which you received. "FRANCHISE. This word has several significations: 1. It is a right reserved to the people by the constitution; hence we say, the elective franchise, to designate the right of the people to elect their officers. 2. It is a certain privilege, conferred by grant from the government, and Vested in

Can you see how they have taken a right reserved to the people and converted it to "a certain privilege, conferred by grant from the government, and Vested in individuals." Aided by the "several significations" of the word franchise ?

Needless to say, no privilege is ever conferred by a government without cost. One cost here is the connection to the scheme by which the "states" collect "taxes" debts in greenbacks when the Constitution says, "No state shall ... make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt." So. you might well ask, "What is this entity to which I pay "state" taxes ?" And, do you really want to ratify it against the Constitution ? Do you really want to make agreements with and accept privileges from an entity which is clearly non-constitutional ? Where agreements are made with non-constitutional entities, the protections of the Constitution do not apply.

Now that you know, you can consent, assent, or dissent. What will a sane man do ?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:53 - ID#339265) your poor Jewish wife a favor...
...and divorce her.

Then your rich mother-in-law and father-in-law can finally stop supporting your sundry stock market losses.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:55 - ID#411259)
..... ? .....

Many here have quoted the World Gold Counsel's facts and statistics. They are a lobby group, just as the Platinum Guild is, but this does not mean what they say is untrue, just usually enthusiastic.

The WGC has taken a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal for tomorrow. This ad will recommend the buying of gold. At the bottom of the page are listed four recommended companies to contact. Monex, Republic Bank, and I don't know the other two.

A couple-o-folks expressed displeasure with my company hereabouts, telling of losses while speculating and blaming brokers over markets, but this is a common enough feeling when faced with losses, and completely understandable if one did not do their own research rather than just take some brokers word for it.

When I have taken losses in my personal finances, I've oft felt the sting of the Bad Advice Bee and gone looking for a broker on whose cartilage I could gnaw. But this passes quickly when I realize I am much too informed to do anything but take responsibility for the losses myself. This has gone a great distance towards stripping the outer layers of emotion in my personal investments, but the core Fear is still there. The Fear that haunts all who send money off to work and multiply.

I can Handle the Fear; it is a mildly unrestful beast chewing on some non-vital internal organ hard wired directly to the sphincter, but no real immediate threat. But nobody can wake up on a Friday morning and find that you are now worth 15% less than you were on Monday. The tiny and almost forgotten Fear gets a brand new attitude and now is ripping through yards of colon with bad intentions of exploding right through that damned sphincter or maybe up the esophagus. Or, to hell with it. straight out the stomach wall and right up in your own contorted face, as you stare indeedy into the very Face of the Fear.

When that happens, I usually drop the Fear in a two fisted hail of 9mm fire, emptying both magazines into that Fearsome visage. This works for incapacitation, but a wounded Fear is a hideous thing to see, and an almost impossible thing to escape from once it has roused itself back to Full Fear Face Force. To avoid this, a small caliber handgun, a .22, is the preferred method of close in wet work. The key is a light load in the round, cross hatch the tip so it mushrooms on impact, leave it loud though, you want the world to witness this execution.

The preferred gangland method is to go up behind the left ear with one of those light .22s and, Pop! The bullet goes in spreads out and just rattles around a bit before settling down in the very brain pan of this formerly fearsome fear. This is no mercenary killing, nor any of mercy in your killing, this is killing the Fear to be left once again with the fear, gently and patiently nibbling on our innards.

I just went back and read the start of this post and one would never have guessed it would have led here. I went back to the start to remember just what in the hell this post was about, and is there a point to any of this? 4am comes early, so I will get back to the point:

It is heartening to see the WGC has found us to be of upright and proper stock to such extent that they endorse us in a full page WSJ add. How much do those things cost? Apart from Monex and Republic, the other two companies are a mystery.

If they be not as noble a cut as us
We shall gentle their condition
By merit of our golden glow alone
But, if they are of hardy stock hard hewn
Then two more brothers at our side
Four is not too much for a nation as this
It is a pie that forty could share
I freely admit some measure of comfort
That I may stand tall if ever judged
By association of those around me
I may be judged as they
Nay! More clever still
I didn't show my face

Anyway, this is a very strange post. I rambling towards 4am

See ya'


(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:55 - ID#71231)
Get a load of this:
* * *
from WSJ:

GETTING BULLISH: After weathering the summer's market volatility,
investors believe the stock market is in for a rebound, the latest quarterly poll by brokerage firm Quick & Reilly finds.

According to the late-October survey, which polled 500 of the
discount-brokerage firm's customers, 66% of respondents believe the
Dow Jones Industrial Average will move above 9400 in the next six
months. About 23% say it is "moderately likely" the Dow will move below
7500. Quick & Reilly is owned by Fleet Financial Group.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:57 - ID#339265)
@ERLE...yes, you've hit the nail on the head...
Realistic ( aka LGBUGAL ) is one of those guys who chased kids like myself down the hill after school and pelted us with snowballs.

However, there is a day soon to arrive when he will be very surprised to discover an ambush awaits him...and those ice-packed snowballs hurt like hell when they cut through the flesh.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 01:58 - ID#411259)
..... No Tax? .....

Offer them US dollars

What is the ask price for these coins?


(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:06 - ID#153102)
I think it clears the air now that Bart has officially declared this to be a Jewish website. ( Bestows on you a kind of half a passport of immunity, too, I should think. ) Now, maybe we can get some decent analysis. Personally, I took it as a very "bullish" sign that the World Jewish Congress went after Swiss gold.

But, I don't understand how rich's remark was "rascist". What race was involved ?

John Disney
(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:10 - ID#24135)
I feel much better ..
Keep up the good work !!

Oddly enough .. my in-laws may be the only
two Jews in the world who do not participate
in the control of great wealth and power ..
how unlucky can I get ?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:18 - ID#367411)
@RJ re Pt Prices
Here are the most recent retail prices.

Pt Maple Leaves/American Eagles:
1 Oz
Sell 47,074 yen ( includes tax )

1/2 Oz
Sell 23,980 ( includes tax )

I doubt they take dollars!



(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:20 - ID#266105)

But, I don't understand how rich's remark was "rascist". What race was involved ?


That would Negroid, Caucasoid or Mongolian. Say, didja know
a chimpanzee is a nearer relative to all three than to an orangutan.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:20 - ID#341227)'re right....
...Rich's remark, in and of itself, was NOT racist. I pointed it out simply as a gross violation of the netiquette rules. Since Bart has held me accountable to such rules in the past, then I wondered why he was not holding others accountable.

Judaism is NOT a race...however, thanks to Mr. Hitler, in the 20th century, Judaism was longer simply a religion but a racial description which gained populist acceptance.

Furthermore, the Talmudic definition of a Jew ( someone born of a Jewish mother ) indicated that one MUST have a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew. Again, the enemies of the Jews have focused upon this fact to declare that Judaism is more than a religion but actually denotes a racial group...and an exclusionist one at that!

Once again, the fallacy contained therein is self-evident...any woman on this planet -- whether she is Muslim, Catholic, German, Black, Chinese, etc. -- is entitled to convert to Judaism if she so desires. Once she is
a Jewess, then her future offspring will be, by Talmudic definition, Jewish. Since conversion is open to all, then in effect, there is no exclusion of other races and nationalities.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:21 - ID#284255)
Mike K
I guess that's why I received so many hits today.
Advertising really works. ( :- ) ) )

Do you mean it could be an even bigger worry. ^o-o^

'Charlottes Web' here we come.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:25 - ID#233199)
Hey F* ..if you're still there..
say something about economics please. I appreciate those posts.


John Disney
(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:25 - ID#24135)
that depends on what you mean by "race"
for Mozel ..
you seeeeee .. No actual RACE was involved .. but the
remark was what I call "ethnicIST" and I took offence
as a non-Jew because Rich's OTHER half seemed to be
getting no attention at ALL.
PS .. I note F* has knocked off another point
from the AJI. That boy is smokin...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:29 - ID#153102)
There is also only one letter's difference between chimp and chump.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:35 - ID#33184)
signal to noise ration was approx 50% since 00:00 including this "noise"!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:36 - ID#153102)
Well, the site host said it was racist, and I think it's insensitive of you to contradict him.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:37 - ID#266105)
hear no, see no, speak no

And champ, too.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:40 - ID#153102)
Brabo !

(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:42 - ID#341227) the populist definition of the term....
..the remark was racist. So, Bart was correct in his use of the adjective.

However, in reality, the remark was simply anti-Jewish....and I and many others know full well that Jews are not a race, contrary to Mr. Hitler's assertions that they are one.

Again, Hitler is the one who changed the definition of a Jew in this century, from a mere religious term to a racial one.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 02:52 - ID#153102)
You seem completely oblivious to the fact you are over your head in a can of worms.
It was not Hitler that obtained the Balfour letter of committment for the founding of a Jewish State for the Jewish nation was it ?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:11 - ID#344326)
this and that.....
So we can't agree on this and that, well forget the whole thing, I've had enough, havn't you? If we can't agree in cyber, what can we agree on? This is the closest thing we've come to democracy, where everyone has an opinion. The lesson? People are still people, from carving on stones to communicating in cyber. When does it get better? When do people accept people? I'm still waiting. The more things change, the more things stay the same. What is happening in terms of evolution as we communicate in cyber? Is it any different? We are we going? Take it out a few hundred years, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I say, isolation, despite the fact that we all speak from different parts of the entire world is useless unless we know our neighbors. GOD SPEED everyone.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:15 - ID#344326)
How would things be different if we all were face to face?
Think about it. What if Farfel was in front of you? How would you respond? Technology seperates us, even if you have the best of the best, as on Kitco. Heidegger was right. God help us.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:18 - ID#344326)
You love Gold? Why?
I suppose because it's real.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:25 - ID#284255)
Ruben's dilemna

Clinton says wants Treasury's Rubin to remain on job WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) -
President Clinton told reporters Tuesday he wanted Treasury Secretary Robert
Rubin to stay on the job as long as Rubin felt like doing so. Asked before a
meeting of his economic team, including Rubin, what indications the Treasury
secretary had given him regarding how long he planned to remain in the job,
Clinton said: ``We haven't discussed it in quite a while. He knows that I
want him to stay as long as he's comfortable sitting in that chair.'' Rubin
made no comments in response to the question. There has been frequent
speculation that Rubin may give up his Treasury post to return to his home in
New York sometime after Tuesday's elections. But the speculation has ebbed
lately amid world economic turmoil and as the United States has promoted plans
for limiting economic gyrations and creating anew safety net to help
countries avert financial crises. ``There's a lot of things going on in the
world today and the United States has a special responsibility,'' Clinton
said. ``I'm very pleased at the work we've been able to do under Secretary
Rubin's leadership to stabilize the financial conditions ... and at the
consensus we seem to be developing among the world's leading economies and
many of the developing economies about some long-term reforms in the
financial system,'' Clinton said. ``He ( Rubin ) has played a critical role in
that as well a sour in own prosperity for the last several years and I
hope he'll stay as long as he feels that he can,'' Clinton said.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:26 - ID#344326)
Have the right idea, but the wrong method.....What a wonderful world without racism, nationalism, and religious fundamentalism. But political correctivism is only suppresion. Kitco was better when people expressed their real opinions and didn't hold back. Things had a way of working themselves out. Kitco was an amazing thing, the human condition was at work, unfolding......and it always seemed to work out.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:34 - ID#344326)
We better work things out.....
Or else, we are surely heading for disaster...Does anyone diagree that reads this site? Why are you here? It's because you care. Is anyone really here because you wish the end of the world? Anyone who thinks that, is very wrong and does not understand why anyone is a goldbug. It is because of the greatest concern for humanity.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:35 - ID#257151)
we lack both sight and smell in cyberspace. More than 70% of the information of an utterance, according to M*? ( forgotten most of my psych degree ) is non-verbal. Of course, M*? wasn't really up with pheremones then.

I think, tho, that the words we use have power, oftimes beyond the intentions of the writer.

I suspect too, that, were we to share a beer, or an afternoon in hazardous adventure, we would make the same decisions about our kitco buddies as we make without them.

I am not so rabidly anti-christian in person, that is, unless some proselytizer incautiously omits to read my non-verbal cues.
Without the non-verbal clues and cues, it is easy to take the words at face value. The situation is further mired by some cultural blinkers. I am told, but have no way of knowing if it is true, that merkans do not understand irony.

Our New Zealand English really depends upon irony and litotes for its colour.

Are nuzilun Inglish rilly depends on irony and litotes, for it's colour, eh?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:35 - ID#284255)
Read on down the list.....

CNNfn market movers
NICE Systems takes a mean hit; Quaker Fabric ripped to shreds on Nasdaq
Quaker Fabric ( QFAB ) stock shed 42.7 percent of its value after the company announced its earnings for the second half were likely to fall significantly below analysts' estimates due to problems related to Year-2000 compliance.
But the locus of the Big Board's troubles Friday was in the financial sector, which bore the brunt of the continuing fallout from Wednesday's $3.5 billion bailout of foundering hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management.

The leading conference and exposition dedicated to the Year 2000 in the Gulf region and Middle East. This is a unique opportunity for managers and professionals from all economical and social sectors to meet Y2K specialists in order to formulate appropriate individual solutions specific to your particular needs. This is also a unique opportunity for Year 2000 services and technology providers to meet with reliable buyers and decision makers from both private institutions as well as governmental bodies in the Gulf and Middle East.
Seems they're starting a little late. ^o-o^

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:45 - ID#344326)
Thank you and as Tolerant1 would say....Namaste to you. What a wonderful word...Tolerant1, A belated birthday to you!!! I feel you would appreciate what I'm feeling tonight! My teeth may be numb tomorrow, but we must strive to rejoice with each other! I wish everyone the BEST on KITCO!! If we can't get along here, where can we get along!! Forgive my superlatives, I just wish and hope for the best of humanity!!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:47 - ID#153110)
@Sovereigns Must Have Gold @crazytimes
crazytimes: re-nationalism is happening and the American Empire can't stop it. Read and heed.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:48 - ID#344326)
I absolutely love you all.....
Thank you for a great site!!! If you all consider this your home in cyberspace, I wish everyone the best in the future, be you short or long on gold.........

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:53 - ID#344326)
@ Mozel....
No matter what...Racism, Nationalism, and Religious Fundamentalism are the sources of hatred. Please don't assume I am Democratic in my political affiliations. I am not. These are just the things that seperate us all. Thank you so much for contributing some of the most thought provoking posts on this forum.....If it doesn't start here, where does it start????

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:56 - ID#344326)
Has been called the "rubber room of cyberspace" I thank Kitco and Bart for a place to come in cyberspace to read and learn. There is no place quite like it, no? Even RJ would agree with me......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:56 - ID#230376)

From one birthday guy to ANOTHER best to you,always....Namaste........a gulp to ya, too!!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:58 - ID#344326)
And farfel....
would agree that no matter what has transpired...Kitco has been an outlet for a discussion that would otherwise not take place!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 03:59 - ID#258195)
Tuesday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates
For Tues 03 Nov calculated from data published in today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean GoldLR-----4.69---------------4.15-------------3.68-----------------3.17
Gold Lease Rate---0.59---------------1.16-------------1.38-----------------1.74
( Change ) ---- ( + 0.01 ) -------- ( - 0.08 ) ------- ( - 0.03 ) ----------- ( - 0.02 )

Silver Lend Rate----3.70--------------3.00--------------1.95-----------------1.75
Silver Lease Rate---1.58--------------2.31--------------3.11-----------------3.16
( Change ) ------ ( -0.47 ) -------- ( - 0.54 ) ------- ( - 0.45 ) ----------- ( - 0.43 )
Lease Rate equals LIBOR minus Lending Rate
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild .
The lines labelled ( Change ) = changes in lease rates since previous day's figures.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:00 - ID#344326)
I have a dream....
that RJ and farfel met each other and got along.....What a wonderful world!!! Louis Armstrong, where are you?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:05 - ID#240169)
investing in foreign exchange
If the prognosis for a fall in the dollar is true - what currency would you reccommend - this questions is referred to everyone and anyone who has an answer ( with reasons for it )

Thank you very very much in advance.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:06 - ID#344326)
Ode to Kitco....
Before I pass out.....Kitco has been a source of inspiration to me for the past year. It has keep me alive for the hope of humanity. I'm sure some people that read this are cynical of what I just said, but it is the truth. For people to come here, from all parts of the world and share their ideas, passions, predictions, and their me hope............I kid you not.........NAMASTE!!!!!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:08 - ID#240169)
explanation for "yields"
I have just finished reading Bill Buckler's site in respect to treasure and bond yields and the'spread". I do not understand anything. Can someone please explain what it means, why is it important, and what the consequences of it on the money markets.

Thank you very much in advance.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:08 - ID#25490)
Eddie, crazytime, crust, horsey stuff
It's your Birthday?

Happy birthday to the chilly midwest! A gold letter day. ( That's more festive than a red letter day )

"I just wish and hope for the best of humanity!!!!"
our differences are minor compared to our similarities.

Notice how close are the words "similar" and "simian". OTOH "semolina" must be either a chaotic weather pattern or a Spanish monk's Patron Saint.

Zabeel sired the first two place getters at yesterday's Melbourne cup. Zabeel was himself sired by the greatest NZ horse, Sir Tristram. Zabeel used to stand at stud for NZ$40,000. Probably a 4 or 5 bagger for next year, and not for sale at any price, crusty.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:10 - ID#344326)
and a particular thanks to Mozel.....
You are one I wish I could meet or talk with sometime...I would love to be able to pass on to other people a fraction of your thoughts....Feel free to write me sometime.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:13 - ID#344326)
@ aurator.....
"our differences are minor compared to our similarities."

You are so right....Why can't others see that? My greatest dissappointment in life is that others can't see that we are more similar than different....

I apoligise to others that may be tired of my sentimental ramblings tonight....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:18 - ID#344326)
GLOURIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where's Ziva?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:19 - ID#344326)
And one last thing....
Buy a Mountie.........They are beautiful and show appreciation for a site like no other............

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:21 - ID#153110)
You are kind to one who is a midget on the shoulders of giants. Thus, not very impressive in person. Just connecting the dots.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:28 - ID#25490)
Gold~~~the universal knowingness....
Everyone can see/feel/smell/know/grok that our differences are minor compared to our similarities.

Oftimes it is only at times of greatest emotion ( birth/death/sickness/suffering ) that we actually see/feel/smell/know/grok our common-ness, our similar simian-ness, our human-ness.

Amazing what happens when you drop an ounce of gold in someone's hand, then 10 oz.
Differences melt away at the heft of gold.

Gold is so deep in our psyches, our archetypes, our genomes, our traditions, our languages..

The touch of gold unifies humanity.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:31 - ID#344326)
My spelling isn't the greatest....
Thanks to Sharefin, STUDIO.R, Mozel, Aurator, GOLDEN CHEESEHEAD, John Disney, Tolerant1, RJ, Farfel, TYoung, Nick@C, Ziva, JP, Puetz, OldGold, ERLE, erle, SAM, Prometheus ( where are you? ) Golden Prophet, 2BRO2B, PH in LA, EJ, Glenn, Tolerant1, EB, Allen ( USA ) , Nicodemus, SDR, and others that I may have forgotten who are just as important, but it's late....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:33 - ID#344326)
Your humbleness makes me tremble in my shoes.......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:34 - ID#153110)
@The Golden Calf
Or was it Bull ? I ain't gonna worship the stuff for goodness sake !

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:35 - ID#230376)
auracious .....

Thanks for your good wishes....ANOTHER year older, but much wiser due to you and other astute minds of this site in cyberspace. Thanks to ALL of you I've learned and gained much more than I've given.


(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:41 - ID#344326)
A prediction....
The bottom is in for Gold. May we all be on the right side without the world coming to an end.........

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:47 - ID#153110)
@calfaurator @crazytimes @Ersel &EB @BBL
@calfaurator My last post had your previous in mind, prozlator.
@crazytimes The rumor of warrant has the same effect on me.
@Ersel & EB Best Wishes. Ersel, it was the Individuals Representing Satan ( IRS ) that introduced the practice of estimating the value of what is given. "The fundamental things apply, as time goes by."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:48 - ID#230376)

It's too bad favorite broodmare lives so far away from Zabeel.....the foal would make an impressive cross. Natururally, GOLD would be in it's name. Gooday from the chilly Midwest.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:50 - ID#344326)
Let time be a friend for all of us, may we find our neighbors, may we find our right relationship with the DIVINE, however we define that, may we rejoice with each other, no matter what ethnic backround, no matter what age, no matter what color of skin, no matter what sex or orientation, no matter what opinion, NO MATTER WHAT! and then all will be well.........

(Wed Nov 04 1998 04:58 - ID#344326)
A Musical Recommendation.....
If anyone does not know of Beethoven's Quartet in A minor, Opus 132, 3rd movement, Molto adagio, it is the finest example ( IMHO ) of peace and thanksgiving....YOU WILL NOT BE DISSAPOINTED......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:03 - ID#344326)
@ That's the Night that the lights went out in Georgia...
and crazytimes went crazy....and loved it......

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:05 - ID#33182)
Signal to noise down to about 32%

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:08 - ID#344326)
@ noise to some is a signal to others.....
Yada, Yada,Yada........

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:10 - ID#25490)
Undocumented Featurettes....
Tech Notes

Slowdown noticed downunder in loading images since you incorporated ersatz voting form.

In particular:

1. Sometimes when you hit the "submit" button, at the next download the "submit" button greys out and is unavailable.

2. Also noticed that when one used to hit the "submit" button when viewing last time period for the day kitco would add one day and start at 00:00 hours. Now the day does not increment.

3 Sometimes the check-boxes also greyed-out. Usually the last time period for the day after submitting into the next day.

High days and Holy Days:
Guy Fawkes day in 30 mins...Catholics trying to blow up Protestant Parliaments...Fireworks day.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:19 - ID#25490)
It's very confusing being so many different sizes in one day sais Alice.
There are gold sites
and there are christian sites.

this is the first.
not the second.

away to look for poo and honeypot..

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:19 - ID#344326)
@ the old college try.....
Should gold make it to 500 an ounce, without the world falling apart, I, crazytimes, will attempt to try a KITCO union, in which all of us, from all walks of life, will get together and meet each other in person. Who, that reads this site, wouldn't love that? I need a little help with this though.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:21 - ID#344326)
sometime ask EJ to post his classic, "gold at 500 drinking guidelines"
it's a riot.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:33 - ID#25490)
Submit button greyed again.

Ummm why do I now get a half sized window? RU you asking me to take a hint to cut my word count?

Me aurator on oneknee. You God@asgaard.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:44 - ID#240169)
tantalus rex
I wanted to stop this thread because this is a website which deals with
gold, but I could not keep silent after your last remarks:

Your reply was the a perfect example of interpreting and understanding information within the confines of prejudices!!

I'm delighted to read that you agree with me in that many
Jewish-Americans who have prominent positions in American life have
crucial influence towards US Economic Policy. It's always been harder
to explain this to fact to young adults in our society. Probably
because they've been "brainwashed" early in life from sources such
as TV, Film and Music productions. Although it may seem to appear
that "artists", "actors", and "directors" are to blame, it is the people in charge who put them there who are more to blame. Note that I did
not say that Jews have "total control" over much of America. My
definition of "crucial influence" and that of "control" are so close
that I say they have the same meaning.

Dear Tantalus Rex - you conveniently ignore the fact that I said that they are first and foremost AMERICANS - and the fact that they are Jewish has no relevance at all to their professional status - only to peple like you.
It is not Jews who are prominent and have influence - it is Americans who are prominent. Their religion has no bearing on their position, their policy making or decision making.

So, when you agree that Jewish-Americans have crucial influence and then later on say that you don't know who controls America; to me, you are making a contradictory statement.

It is not contradictory statement - There are Americans of the Jewish faith who have crucial positions in the government. To say that they control the American government is a "leap of faith" of people with a particular prejudiced way of perceiving the situation.
Moreover, there are other people in influential and crucial positions, positions which control major areas in the life of the American government and population -who belong to other religious groups and whose ancestors came from other countries. Why do you not claim that they also "control" America. Why only Jews?

You also focused on my comment that "Jews control much of
America". You may failed to take my whole post into context. I
emphasized that there are Good Jews and Bad Jews. An example of a Bad Jew is one who claims to be an American but is really acting
on behalf of Jewish interests and who places Jewish interests ahead of American interests. The US has convicted a Jewish-America for
spying. He did give invaluable secrets to the Israeli government and SERIOUSLY compromised American security. You are probably proud of that, but I doubt you would admit to that in this forum! Israel wants him to be released and has FINALLY admitted that he did spy on behalf of Israel. So when you say that I don't see ALL Jews as Americans you are quite mistaken.
him a sh!t head, but I know that's going to offend you.

Pollard - I totally agree with you that he should not have spied against America.

However, the Wall Street Journal addressed this issue ( Of course you can always claim that it is controlled by Jews so it is not objective ) , and stated that: POLLARD EXPOSED POLICY ERRORS, NO HARM TO U.S. SECURITY. I am presenting excerpts from the article, but the gist of it is that America ( contrary to signed agreements with Israel ) was witholding information essential for Israel's security. And why - because Israel was undermining their Middle East policy which was based on developing their relationship with Sadaam Hussein and strengthening him.

The Wall Street Journal has provided a fresh outlook on the latest Iraqi
crisis through the perspective of the Jonathan Pollard affair. An August 6th article by Boston University Prof. Angelo Codevilla, a former senior staff member of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee, shows that although what Pollard did was undeniably against the law, it should now be realized that he did not hurt Washington's intelligence operations per se, but only "subverted U.S. policy in the Middle East." Codevilla then goes on to show exactly what that policy was: the building of an "important" and "fruitful" relationship with Saddam Hussein, which later led directly to the Gulf War and the ensuing crises. Codevilla writes that Pollard's sin was "blowing the whistle on an embarrassing policy." By doing so, he embarrassed administration officials such as then-Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and then-Deputy CIA Director Bobby Ray Inman, leading to Pollard's being sentenced to life instead of the more appropriate sentence
of four years.

Prof. Codevilla writes, "Some senior officials of the U.S. government had decided that Israel should not have certain information about Iraq and other Arab countries because the officials did not like what Israel was doing with it... Some senior U.S. officials were angry at Israel for getting in the way of their Middle East policy. In 1981, shortly after Israel had bombed the Osirak reactor that had been the centerpiece of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons program, Inman went to Capitol Hill to criticize the Israelis, who had used U.S. satellite pictures to plan the bombing. Mr. Inman said they had harmed sophisticated U.S. efforts to build an important relationship with Saddam... [He] reported to
incredulous senators in 1982 that U.S.intelligence no longer supported the conclusion that Iraq was a major sponsor of terrorism. High-level
officials dismissed concerns about Baghdad's purchase of a chemical
facility that became the centerpiece of Iraq's chemical and biological
weapons program, and during the 1980s these officials provided Saddam with U.S. weapons and intelligence. These officials also knew about - and failed to hinder - the transfer of German technology to the Saad 16 missile factory in northern Iraq. This policy, vigorously pursued by Washington until the very eve of the Gulf War, turned Iraq into a danger to mankind. This policy helped supply the technologies that killed U.S. soldiers in the Gulf War - the technologies for which inspectors now are searching fruitlessly and that may well kill other Americans in the future."

Also, you say that "Jewish prominence in every aspect of life in Europe constituted one of the reasons and justifications for political anti-Semitism which led to the Holocaust". I think you just made a fantastic statement and I totally agree with you! A

Again you are interpreting the statement through the prism of prejudice - Jews have contributed to the development of the modern world beyond their proportion in the population of the world ( see the percentage of Jewish Noble Prize winners ) but they certainly do not deserve to be sent to concentration camps and to be
annihilated for that 'sin'. Hitler killed Jews for one reason and one reason only - because they were Jews!!!

I want to end with a question: do you see good Americans and bad Americans, good Russians and bad Russians, god British and bad British,
good Germans and bad Germans etc. etc. or only good Jews and bad Jews????

(Wed Nov 04 1998 05:45 - ID#203243)
To: Crazytimes
The world will not fall apart with gold at $500, 19 years ago gold reached $800 ( say about $2,000 in today's dollars ) and the world is still here Uh, albeit maybe just barely still herer!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:06 - ID#26793)
Dollar stronger on election results

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:13 - ID#26793)
Montana voters approve ban on cyanide use in gold mining

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:36 - ID#31868)
38% voter would seem that no matter how they spin it...people across the
country stayed home and did not exercise their right to vote...the biggest loser in this election was America...plain and simple...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:38 - ID#31868)
crazytimes, Ersel, Namaste' gulps and puffs all around...thanks for the belated and
crazytimes let me know about those numb teeth...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:38 - ID#29048)
Stock Rally gets boost
Asian Markets Advance; Nikkei Index Soars 4.1%


Asian stocks advanced Wednesday, with the Japanese market soaring 4.1%.
Japan's stocks rallied after Morgan Stanley's global strategist Barton Biggs increased his Japan weighting from 40% to 75% of the Morgan Stanley Capital International Index. The upgrade triggered strong buying, much of it coming from overseas investors. Gains on global stock markets so far this week also bolstered shares, traders said.

European markets strong

Dow to 10,000 !!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:42 - ID#31868)
SWP1, Namaste' gulp and a puff to I am not in MN but I am happy to see
someone not connected to either the Dem or Repub parties win...yes... there must be more than one big political party with two halves in order for the country to move forward...with the right candidate an independant could possibly win the election in 2000...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:47 - ID#31868)
China...a financial black hole...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 06:52 - ID#411271)
Woke up this am to alarm radio talking heads exhorting demo gains and speaking of the
president getting a "deal". Why do I not feel great when all is righted in Oz. Talk goes big about the economy staying on an even keel for 6 years, unprecedented. & I feel bad, is goldbug a disease that you catch?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:06 - ID#288466)

XOI Very bullish chart

XAU, well - wait and see what happens.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:09 - ID#288466)
Donald 6:13 - Montana cyanide ban on mining use
Note that Platinum/Palladium extraction processes do NOT use cyanide.
Stillwater Mining ( located in Montana ) is in the clear on this one. Go Platinum!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:18 - ID#288466)
Gold, silver testing the wedge upper boundary in ECU's
Hmmmmmmmm - do I see a little push across the boundary?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:19 - ID#284255)
Two of my favorite views
East and West

You can even see where Aurator's lurking. ^o-o^

There are many Kitcoites living under these Cyber Eyes.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:22 - ID#288466)
Gold and silver charts - Mid Am

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:26 - ID#348169)
Futures and Options
Who can recommend the best couple of sites that give all the daily futures and option prices for free?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:31 - ID#348169)
I keep checking those Silver and Gold charts as you post them and I guess you are looking for opinions; using Mooney's PMMEBTC method I must say that neither one looks all that encouraging right now.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:33 - ID#333126)
UK interest rates *must* be cut

dang. 97% of financial advisers say there must be a cut. they must be right, no?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:38 - ID#248180)
EURO$ Gains Support in India - US$ Tipped to be Weaker

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:46 - ID#288466)
Nope - just posting the charts for general information....I HAVE my opinion, and BTW I agree that those charts do not look good.....but I'm not basing my opinion on gold and silver in terms of U.S. dollars. ( ;^ ) )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:49 - ID#288466)

Here's a good options site, but I don't know if it is the best one around.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:53 - ID#45173)
Ok, so Saddam gets the publicity he's looking for...
France calls Iraqi arms move mystifying and wrong what? Maybe he has some other news that will help his short positions in the US stock market?

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 07:53 - ID#33184)
Mooney - collection of links for futures sites

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:02 - ID#258427)
Gold is showing *unusual* strength ...
in light of the very strong USD....Good sign? Go Gold...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:09 - ID#31868)

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:10 - ID#183109)
more BULLISH RANGY news...

( 30 October 1998 )

RANDGOLD & EXPLORATION chairman Roger Kebble says the group is currently in talks with other interested parties with regard to the formation of a new company which will concentrate on mineral rights, and in which RANGOLD will vest its mineral rights portfolio, prompted Kebble says, by the publishing of the white paper on mineral rights which advocates a use-it or lose-it policy. Some 80% of mineral rights are subject to agreement on joint ventures with South African or international mining companies.

Publisher: Beeld

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:16 - ID#288466)
BillD (Gold is showing *unusual* strength ...)

The dollar Index going up will take the gold/ECU chart across the downtrend line in short order, if gold stays flat or goes up.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:20 - ID#348169)
@Religion and Politics a BAD MIX! However...
Perhaps because of my plea here yesterday morning to keep politics and religion off this forum I was included on a mailing yesterday ( morning ) of the following message. Although I am apparently breaking my own rules, I believe that this type of article is OK to reprint as we are not discussing Dumocrats or Repukeagains or the various in and outs of specific religions but, instead, the insidious encroachment of a government out of control, bent on interfering in every way in the lives of their own citizens. Big Brother seem's to be very much alive and well in the good 'ole USA. This is probably one of the BEST reasons for each American to stash some precious behind the chimney. Here's the pertinant part of the e-mail from a fellow Kitcoite. ( My apologies if it was posted yesterday and I missed it. ) :- (

This is a quote from Janet Reno on 60-minutes..
"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second
Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high
level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools their
children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in
the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government. Any of these
qualify a person as a cultist but certainly more than one of these would
cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family as being in
risk situation that qualified for government interference."

- Janet Reno, Attny. Gen.,USA Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26,1994

Words are futile, none expressive enough, for once I am am at a loss to succinctly express all the cross-currents of revulsion this person in high office has made me feel. Good Luck Old Glory, you're going to need it. ( Things get too bad down there folks, c'mon up! )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:22 - ID#344326)
@ tolerant1
I have a lecture to give in 5 hours about Alternative Medicine to a group of Ivy League Undergraduates, what do I do about my numb teeth? Perhaps LGB can speak in my place.....

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:23 - ID#348257)
rally on
As surmised a while back after that obvious stock market bottom was put in, the DOW has paused around the 8400 level, and is now heading toward next resistance around roughly 8900. The pause was even shorter than I thought it would be.

As predicted, the small caps are leading the way and will be the best bets in this wave. This move is putting the final hurrah back in the bull, as a top formation begins to take shape. We must now watch for gold to rise with stocks for a classic end-game of a two decade paper bull. The real crisis for the stockmarket will be in mid 2000. We are now witnessing the preliminaries to a massive asset inversion.

The XAU must hold 70, bullion hold roughly 290, and rally from here for the scenario to be on track. We can always reassess at Dow 8900.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:26 - ID#30126)
Your 06:36 is right on the money. The results of this election were pathetic. Now for the 'relief' rally under way in the Globex. Got any positions that you want to get out of? Now's the time, because all is NOT well with economy.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:30 - ID#348257)
I share your revulsion. However, I have heard of a very widespread cult that actually drinks the blood and eats the flesh of its deity. These people have their gathering places in just about every town and city in America, and around the world. They have an undisputed leader whose every pronouncement is accepted as the voice of God. Sort of like David Koresh. These people are even philosophically prejudiced against the right of a pregnant mother to murder her own fetal child, thus seeking to control not only the bodies of their fellow cultists, but the bodies of those free-thinking people who have fortunately escaped their strange practices as well. Where is our Attorney General in this matter? Did anyone ever see "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? Is anyone even listening...???

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:32 - ID#30126)
As Mao said ( more or less ) , "Power flows from the end of a gun barrel."

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:33 - ID#348257)
take 2 drops of valerian root and call me in the morning.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:38 - ID#30126)
Rate cuts.
It looks like the un-announced European rate cuts are having their effects on stocks, dollar, gold....

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:40 - ID#348257)
astrological stock tip
I have an astrological suggestion for those Kitcoites who are so individualistic and eccentric as to occasionally buy actual shares of real companies that have nothing to do with gold or silver. In the "pennies from Heaven" department, I wouldn't say anything except if the possibility of return was over 200 or 300 percent within a year ( sometimes 6 months ) . Be warned, the risk is almost as great, but this company is going to have a Uranus conjunction with its Jupiter in the next 2 or 3 months ( No snickering or lame jokes now, if you want to make some REAL money while your gold inches up ) . Ticker symbol is XSYS. I will say no more. Do your own DD on this one, and if it doesn't work out, don't come cryin' to me.

NOTE: The thoughts and analyses expressed in this post are speculation. The reader must choose how much of the material presented herein should be used to apply to his/her own personal market activities. Any comments, predictions, or speculations concerning companies, investments, or investment markets are for research and educational purposes and may be subject to error. Past patterns and occurences in financial markets, whether in relation to astrology or any other form of analysis or strategy, may not always be reliable indicators of future activity. Readers are advised of the potential risk of capital loss in any uninsured investment, including stocks, bonds, gold bullion, futures, and other investment vehicles. Even paper money issued by lawfully constituted governments, including the Treasury of the United States of America, carries no guarantee that its purchasing power and relative value will remain intact and not erode over time. Information contained in this post may have been gathered from many sources, believed to be reliable, but no guarantee can be made as to the accuracy of such information. The issuer of this post is not a dealer or broker in investments, neither stocks, bonds, gold, or other investments. The issuer of this post may have a position in the securities, commodities, or investments mentioned. The issuer of this post presents the material herein as proprietary opinion and research and is not acting in any investment advisory capacity. Readers are advised to consult with their own personal or corporate sources of financial or market counsel. All choices made by readers of this post based on the information contained herein are the responsibility of the reader. It is the right of every person in a free society to use the information presented herein as they best see fit.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:44 - ID#21275)
Rubin may quit soon is BULLLLL
Buckle your seat belts. RR & AG are firmly stuck to this tar-baby,
getting the tar hot enough to unstick them will be exciting.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:45 - ID#410165)
Mooney....that statement by Reno although I would like to say is true,is actually bogus...sorry

Steve in TO
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:53 - ID#287337)
Mooney - you said:
( Things get too bad down there folks, c'mon up! )

There are plans to do just that. I got to know a historian at Queens's University named Floyd Rudmin who has spent his career studying the US military. He has written treatise describing the history and development of US contingency plans for the invasion of Canada. It's too bad it's never been published.

They've centred around Fort Drum since before WWII, which shows how little US military planners understand about Canada. They could grab Ottawa and everyone west of Kenora and East of Hull would cheer : )

Interestingly, Floyd is an immigrant from the US who felt he just didn't share the US weltanschauung. He feels much more like a Canadian, and said that moving here almost made him feel like he was coming home.

What can you say? I felt like I was most at home when we lived in California, even though I think Toronto is a safer place to live.

- Steve

Steve in TO
(Wed Nov 04 1998 08:56 - ID#287337)
Heh, heh . . . The US invading Canada . .
now that would really do something for the price of gold!

Steve : )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:02 - ID#185448)
Mike Sheller
You mean the movie starring Donald Sutherland and Mr. Spock? Iluvit! Exuberance always sucks. No matter what moral justification one uses.

Charleston Gold Bug
(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:04 - ID#344389)
Spot Gold vs US Futures
It has come to my attention that spot
gold, Especially Overnight, is usually
stronger than the US futures.

Does anyone have any ideas on this

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:07 - ID#371229)
Mutal fund returns define the "moral backbone" of the impeachment issue
About one year ago I was working at a local NBC affiliate station. Throughout the offices, lobbies, and entrances they kept small chalkboards upon which they posted the previous day's stock closings for Merideth Corporation, their parent company. This brought home the obvious influence of stock returns on the local news media. Every employee at the station is given a piece of the stock pie, and I am sure this is not just a local phenomenon. I gave a very dissenting opinion one day at the break table discussion on the wisdom of one report then still exhorting people to join the IRA mutual fund craze. I was thereafter looked on as a kook!
Before Clinton we had Reagan looked upon as the teflon president, now we have Clinton. 2 major developements have become perfected in recent political times. One is placating the public for votes through a "good" economy that is now defined by peoples mutual fund quarterly reports, and the second is the succesful control/cooperation of the mainstream press in maintaing the "rosey" outlook picture. For a public that has for so long only been wary of inflation income erosion, the low interest rate consequences of deflation is looked upon as a boon & reason to renogiate credit cards, mortgages, and car loans. Fiat "paper" money is not nearly as popular as the plastic.
The press has John Q. Public so pumped on feel good America that he has little patience or taste for the negativism of impeachment hearings especially if to do so has negative impact on those mutual funds. AS MUTUAL FUNDS GO SO GOES PUBLIC OPINION of elected officials, particularly Bill Clinton. Even among christian right wingers if the issue is presidential morality or money in their pockets, they will opt for their money ( imagine how much they must spend on facial make-up and hair do for their wives ) .
So 38% of registered voters vote. How do you imagine that correlates to holders of mutal funds. Low interest rates, good fund returns, low unemployment = happy eloctorate and now perhaps merely a censured Clinton.
People only change from hitting a bottom, or as Stuart Wilde says one has to whack a tree. We seem to differ only in the speed at which we hit it. The recent stock "correction" is now seen as a glancing blow that did not stop our car from rolling on. Soon we may hear how it has strengthened us.
Republican "leadership" is as guilty as WJC at looking to the public opinion polls for direction. Public opinion looks to the health of wall street.
Wall street looks to Alan Greenspan. Alan Greenspan looks to the bottom line profits of his member banking institutions and that is the moral "backbone" that will decide the issue of impeachment.

Steve in TO
(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:09 - ID#287337)
Powmain - your tar baby analogy is . . .
perfect. Rubin has been making noises and dropping hints about quitting for a long time, but I think he's torn in two directions. I suspect he'll stick it out at least until the bottom of the bear market or 2000, whichever comes first. He'll be just like those folks who hang on to their sinking shares as they fall further and further- looking for that rebound- until they finally give up hope and bail out when the bad news and pessimism are the worst- at the very bottom.

- Steve

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:10 - ID#286230)
sharefin and Natural Gas
So natural gas is also in jeopardy on Y2K day. I'll look into how complaint Trans Canada Pipelines say they are. In the meantime I'll try to become more self sufficient and start stockpiling Mexican food.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:14 - ID#45173)
Well, the elections are over. Guess we'll be hearing from the banks soon.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:22 - ID#339274)
FWIW The story is with platinum,this will be nice run in the
XAU today.Bonds are to be shorted if they can't stay above 127.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:25 - ID#147201)
mozel your 11/3 23:38
Amazing!! I have been thinking all morning about the conniving clinton and how easy it could be to rig just enough votes to cover his ass. I don't have visible facts on hand, but I would bet a damn big bunch of money that this election was rigged if I could get the FACTS. Thanx, Charlie

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:33 - ID#284255)
If you want to see some revealing comments on the state of the utilities have a look here.

You'll have to do a little wading and use the indexes though.

All utilities and other subjects pertinent to Y2k as well as gold are discussed their.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:34 - ID#288466)
Gambling money
FWIW buying URIX, ITRO, RNTK, XSYS at the open

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:36 - ID#341294)
(@Steve in Toronto)
In 1972, I applied for Landed Immigrant status to the Canadian Embassy in Chicago. I had been to Canada, actually Kenora ( what a coincidence ) , & thoguht I would like to live there. Anyway, I had a college degree, a few thousand dollars in the bank & had my military service ( Vietnam ) behind me. It was interesting to note that in filling out the paperwork/application for Landed Immigrant status, almost every page stated that I would not receive a reply for at least 8 weeks concerning this application. I was rejected in 8 Days. I never could really figure out why my applicationwas rejected. I surmised that because I had a "top secret" clearance because I was trained as a Vietnamese interpreter, was the reason for my rejection. I recall that when I was discharged, I was told I could not leave the US for 1 year because of this clearnace. However, I never worked in my MOS ( Military Occupation ) , and never had to utilize the top secret clearance. I started to fly to Chicago & go to the Embassy to see why I was rejected, but I never did. To this day, I have no idea why your country rejected my application. Just thought I'd tell you that little story. It really has nothing to do with this forum.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:37 - ID#432130)
RAN...9:07 posting...
My thoughts exactly! I frequently find that I agree with your well written posts : )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:38 - ID#45173)
Mike Sheller - XSYS
You're tips are usually great so I looked into this one. At 1/4 the stock is cheap, relative to the very optimistic 52-week high of 1 3/4. On the other hand, XSYS has been loosing money steadily for over a year, and the trend for the past two quarters is in the wrong direction. That 1/4 price probably reflects the value of the distribution biz, with money going into R&D for the new product, I'd guess. Astrologicals aside, looks like that new product they announced last month had better sell.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:41 - ID#372228)
Mooney - Futures and Options Quotes Free
I like to use these two for near realtime quotes:

As far as the Janet Reno statement...I see that as the Goal of the Clinton Administration...lead by liars, cheats, manipulators and self absorbed power hungry maniacs....the sooner they get removed, the better for all man kind.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:43 - ID#317193)
APH...S&P...I agree...I'll pass

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:45 - ID#224230)
Tar Baby ? Rubin....?
I'm not familiar with the idiom. Anyone care to briefly explain please ? Sounds amusing.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:49 - ID#339297)
Watch out Goatherders - Something is brewing !!!
Long line of cars going into MacDill AFB today. I have lived 1 mile from base for 10 years - normally a sign that something is up.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:55 - ID#372228)
Good Morning all you Kitco Friends...
It's a sad day in Kitco land with all the news reporters saying that the president won! That impeachment is no longer a viable solution and that the Republicans ( Chicken hearts ) should drop it all together...What ever happened to due process and right and wrong...In my opinion, we the people have lost...lost to fast talking, manipulating, lying and cheating
by all our friendly presidents men. And betrayed by our Republican friends who either are too stupid to know how to prosecute and impeach this frightened to do the right thing....Sometimes you have to look back on me it sure looks like the "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire"...Comments are most welcome.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 09:57 - ID#339274)
FWIW NEM made a perfect low in a ascending triangle 20 5/8
22 will be a breakout.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:03 - ID#410194)
RJ has been preparing us for this....
Interesting "Platinum" comments from this morning's analysis at "Hightower Report":

"After getting blasted in the early Asian trade, platinum recovered some of the losses last night as the trade moved past the threat of fund dumping and focused on the news item that retail of platinum bars soared by 241% at a Japnan bullion house during October or by 587% year over year. Platinum is a market too cheap if the Asia crisis is truly over. Market is close to breaking above a downtrend channel line."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:03 - ID#275170)
Trader Vic; I couldn't agree more!
The media had the biggest role in this election. True, the republicans only hurt themselves by adjusting themselves so as to not come out looking any worse than the media already tries to make them look!
The Republicans did this to themselves by not staying with there principals.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:11 - ID#34459)
And We Have Liftoff!!
Gday Mates, Yesterday at this time the XAU made a key reversal and gave the 2nd buy signal in 7 days, todays breakaway move up on the chart is more confirmation of bullish configuration on the chart. This move has sustainability to it. Catch it at these levels with a commitment to cover and get out at yesterdays low's if the move fails to follow through to the upside. Been following XAU for 13 years daily and I think this is a tradeable move that could last a while. I know there are doubting Thomases out there.Lets see what happens.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:12 - ID#372228)
Peace Talks break down on day after election...Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Maybe peace talks were just some more political lying going that the election is over and Clinton is done partying on his victory over the people...he can now let the peace treaty go down the tubes...why did I think that would happen anyways???...but on the day AFTER the election?

Get ready for WAR in the Middle east friends...Clinton needs this to get rid of the stink that he left in Washington!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:14 - ID#224230)
@tradervic - Yes I have a comment....
Whilst 9/10 of us would like to see Clinton et. all flushed down the toilet of history, the DOW/NASDAQ tumble the POG take off like a rocket to 400++ where it by rights belongs - and finally John Glenn return safely to admit like a wise old man that he's exhausted, glad to be back on terra firma and that spacefaring is a young man's game...NONE OF THE ABOVE WILL HAPPEN.

However - perhaps with the positive impact of the fading prospect of impeachment, Asian markets bouncing back, and the DOW/NASDAQ at least moving upwards will enable the C.Bankers to leverage the feelgood factor and relax their short term manipulation of the POG and allow it to rise to about 310. Thus taking off some of the sentiment pressure that has been building up. So in the short term everybody will be happy.

Maybe the Fed would be happy to see gold creep up WITHOUT too much momentum and find a new 300-320 level ? To silence the manipulation conspiracy theorists and throw us goldbugs a crumb.

While we here all hold our breaths for the ultimately inevitable explosion/implosion/dislocation that will be accompanied by a lot of socio-economic pain.

All these "structural accomodations" being done under the cover of a Y2K "techno-storm". So the politicians/bankers etc. will be able to blame us computer experts ! By that time Bill Gates will be seen as the antichrist anyhow if the "justice department" has its way. When don't they get K.Starr on the case and pry into B.Gates sex life ( does he actually have a sex life ? )

P.S. ( is anyone NOT sitting in front of MS Windows here today ? ) Any Mac's left out there ? : ) Fess up there ?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:19 - ID#333126)
esotericist @ non-Windoze OS
it's a little off-topic, but right now, I'm sitting in front of a Linux PC. Running RedHat 5.1, KDE and Netscape.

no M$ stuff aboard this PC.

( unfortunately, I can't say the same for the other PCs around here... )

If anything, the Free Software movement will be the blow that whacks MSFT off its platform. How does Gates compete against people who improve their software for the sake of doing so ( ie. no profit ) ?

check out and

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:23 - ID#333126)
other related Free Software/Open Source links
The Cathedral and the Bazaar ( great reading )

another official site

the linux news/announcement/discussion group
( btw, oops for last post - and are same site )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:24 - ID#224230)
That's one.......
( though I don't disagree with your philosophy/sentiment )

Joe Sixpack might not quite "get it" though....
Infact in USA Joe Perrier Mineral Water ( College Grad ) wouldn't geddit either due to the dumbing down of the whole society...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:27 - ID#372228)
I unfortunately have to agree that most of what you said is true...especially the part about John Glen ( our hero ) ! However...I do believe that the gov't will loose control, and very soon, of the world containment situation. When war does break out and gold spikes up out of will catch the gold shorts by surprise...having to cover...and setting the gold explosion in non-recoverable reaction...this gold spring is wound so tight and the imbalances are so out of proportion that only a disaster can occur when this gets going and the shorts your gold now and keep buying until the day it does and then thank your lucky stars that you of luck to you in these trying times.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:27 - ID#153110)
@trader_vic @What Happened To Due Process of Law in America
Dan Meador has been busy forming his legal arguments in his web page.
Reading Meador's Bill of Particular arguments I fine he has avoided one
issue. That issue is Military Tribunals and Military Venue and
jurisdiction. When Meador comes to the point where he can not identify a
court he just calls it a private court? I suppose he is basing this on the
united States is a private corporation? Just for clarification lets view
what Federal Courts under the United States Constitution have a criminal


1. Constitutional Courts exercising "the Judicial power of the united
States" under Article III have a criminal jurisdiction.

2. Article IV-Territorial Courts have a criminal jurisdiction.

3. Military Tribunals have a criminal jurisdiction.

If you are charged with a crime under federal law these are the only
Federal Courts/Tribunals that can exercise a criminal jurisdiction.


Each of the three courts/tribunals above have different venues whereby
they exercise their criminal jurisdiction..

1. Article III Constitutional Federal Courts have jurisdiction
within the United States Judicial Districts. These judicial districts are
defined as one of the several states. Each State is a United States
judicial District for federal venue.

2. Article IV-Territorial Courts have criminal jurisdiction in the
territories of the united States, when the territory was within the
boundaries of the United States of America. Once a territory became a State
in the Union the federal Territorial courts were abolished and replaced
with Article III Courts. The boundaries of the territory was the Courts Venue.

3. Military Tribunals have jurisdiction in Regional Areas and
National Areas. These are its Venues.

I am not concerned with the Territorial courts out side of the boundary's
of the Union and I don't know if they have a criminal jurisdiction, and I
could care less. I am not concerned with the District of Columbia Court
Circuit. I don't live in D.C. and the jurisdiction of these courts does not
affect me. There are two false arguments in the Patriot groups that the
D.C. Circuit has been extended to the States and that Article IV Courts
have been extended to the States. Neither of these assumptions is true. The
Several States have not been converted back to territories of the united
States and the D.C. Circuit is confined to D.C. by Article 1 sec. 8. cl.
17. If Congress tried these alterations it would be easy to prove the
un-constitutionality of these issues.

If you can't prove the States are once again territories of the United
States you can rule out the United States District Courts are territorial
Courts. What we are left with are Article III Courts and Military
Tribunals. Legislative Courts/Tribunals under Article I sec 9 of the US
Constitution also needs to be examined. Legislative Courts such as the
Court of Claims does not have a criminal jurisdiction. Military Tribunals
are also Article I Tribunals and do have a criminal jurisdiction. It is my
view that the District Courts of the United States still exist and are
Article III Constitutional Courts possessing the full judicial power of the
United States. The United States District Court is a Military Tribunal
exercising the criminal jurisdiction of the Military power of the united
States over the civilians.


Original titles for the Federal courts.

1.supreme Court of the United States.

2. The Circuit Court of the United States. [now abolished]

3. The District Court of the United States.


1. supreme Court [same]

2. United States Circuit Court of Appeals.

3. United States District Court.

As you can see the Titles of the Circuit and District Courts have
changed. Here is what the Chief Justice of the supreme Court of the United
States had to say about the Circuit Courts:

"Justice Rehnquist... Another proposal is that the judges be elected by
each of the various circuit counsels and regional courts of appeals that
now sit in the country..."
Nomination of Justice William Hubbs Rehnquist, HEARINGS before the
CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES. July 29, 30,31, and August 1, 1986.
Serial No J-99-118. pages, 368-369

Regional courts of Appeals???? Read the following statement by REHNQUIST:

Rehnquist"...The staple of the court's work in the 19th century was
basically common law. Most of the cases were in the Federal system by
reason of diversity of citizenship, and the principles were what were
called general principles of common law. There were few statutes involved".

"That was in the days when being learned in the law had a very definite
connotation. When you said a judge was learned in the law, it meant that he
knew Story's Commentaries, and various other commentaries which were
largely based on the common law. And so there was a good deal of unanimity
of opinion in those days. There was not the sort of discussion, debate, and
controversy that has come in the 20th century with difficult questions of
statutory interpretation and again, the increasing constitutional docket of
the Court, where we deal often with fairly broad, general phrases,
disagreements are natural as to their meaning, and as a result, there are
going to be divisions that there were not when you were just dealing with
the general common law".

Nomination of Justice William Hubbs Rehnquist, HEARINGS before the
CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES. July 29, 30,31, and August 1, 1986.
Serial No J-99-118. page, 134

This is clear to me. REHNQUIST is saying there is a new form of judicial
power out side of the principals of the common-law the courts are following
today. Did this new judicial power require a change in the title of the
courts? It would be confusing for the Circuit and District Courts to be
exercising a new judicial power out side of Article III and retain the old
titles of the Courts.

That these Courts are exercising a military jurisdiction in a military
venue is the only answer I see. You have all seen the military flags in
their courtrooms, do you not believe your own eyes? There have always been
those who believe America should be governed by a Military form of
Government. Where was the authority to create a new judicial power? Cardoza
was a Justice of the supreme Court of the United States. Try this:


by John T. Noonan Jr, professor of LAW, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.

"...Cardozo read the decisions he cited expansively, making it clear that
in his view the corresponding provision of the Bill of Rights were no part
of fourteenth amendment due process.'

Under the authority of the 14th Amendment Congress has created a limited
judicial power vested it into the Federal Circuit and District Court
systems and forced this limited judicial power into the State court
systems. If you want the cites you can ask for my Article Absolute Power
Corrupts Absolutely. I suggest Mr. Meador go back and study the Military
issues and see if he missed a BIG point. Meador should study the process of
the United States District courts as this will show all charges criminal
and civil start in an Article I tribunal THE UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE'S
The judicial districts you fine in 28 USC sec 81 are inclosed in a Code
which converts these judicial districts to statutory venue and
jurisdiction. These are not the United States Judicial Districts in the
Constitutional sense. These judicial districts are military venues of
Tribunals exercising a military jurisdiction. Some people say they are not
14th Amendment citizens and this military venue and jurisdiction does not
apply to them, and they are right unless they have accepted an artificial
entity by law then they too are under the same law. Dan Meador has compiled
a lot of research but needs to add one more issue to complete his argument.
Then he needs to go back and correct his research. All of the powers
granted by the US Constitution must be examined then you can decide what
power you are fighting. - Behold !

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:33 - ID#350194)
Mike Sheller - What kind of juice you drinkin' at breakfast these days? ;- ) e-mail me when you get chance. Later .
Bart - Perhaps a modified version of Mike's note attached to his post @8:40 should be placed somewhere on these pages as ongoing advice to any and all who read ANY comments on these pages. Just a thought.
Panda - And that's why those Chinese students placed flowers in the ends of those soldier's guns at Tiamen.
robnoel - I don't know for sure one way or other. Please, somebody prove Reno statement - one way or other.
Steve in TO - Funny how all that 60-70's pre-pubescent media brainwashing has us all convinced that California is the place to be, isn't it? The lizard syndrome also helps!
trader vic, Silverbaron, Cage Rattler - Thanks for trying to help, I am in process of checking all those links one by one for what I really want to find is the site ( bookmark of which I lost somehow ) that I used to go to that had all the Silver and Gold Futures prices AND all the Silver and Gold option prices.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:35 - ID#224230)
Nice little sales pitch here.....
Here's a Newsletter Sales Pitch I've just lifted from the misc.invest.futures newsgroup.....

We are anticipating the next 24 months to be some of the most profitable times ever recorded in the history of this great country. We believe we are on the verge of a rude awakening in the stock and equities markets. The touting of Wall Street has mesmerized too many people. People are so conditioned to holding through "pull backs" in the markets, that when the big one hits, and believe me it is coming, the masses of people will have been lulled to sleep by the big players on wall street, and by time they awaken, it may be too late.

As the full impact of the USA's accumulated debt becomes clear, one can see that foreign debt,which is about 1.3 trillion of the overall 5.5 trillion debt presents a very gloomy picture of the future.

Ultimately, foreign investors will decide where they believe the safest environment exists for their invested funds. In January of 1999, with the issuance of the new Euro $, foreign investors may see this as a new safe haven. If this were to happen, we may see the beginnings of serious deflation or inflation. Japan has already announced that on January 1, it will convert $10 billion of it's reserves to the new currency.

Most who believe as we do are convinced that the US is already technically bankrupt. The very reason for the Euro $ introduction and the proposed yen based currency in Asia, is all due the US debt. Rumors of Japan buying tons of gold have us concerned.

With these world pressures in mind, the US may be forced by circumstances to resort to defaults or possibly printing more money. We are ready, are you? If any of these circumstances should come to pass, you could become extremely wealthy-- or devastatingly poor.


Sounds like they've been learning their rhetoric from the KITCO forum !

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:35 - ID#288186)
trader_vic; Agree totally with 9:55 post. Also, I enjoy alot of your other posts.
Keep up with the good posts. Fox-man

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:36 - ID#432395)
Waving a different flag!!
Getting back into the equities big time, not gonna miss this run up. These are not our Father's markets, nothing makes any sense, and I'm not making any money sitting and listing all the reasons why the market
should drop!

The mafia in Washington, want the markets to rally, and that's exactly what their going to do. GOT POWER!!

Greenspan a few years ago, preaching irrational exuberance, completely turns around and surprises everyone with a quick drop in rates? Wonder who had the gun to his head?

Holding the gold shares, but going to where the real money is being made!!


(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:46 - ID#244418)
I am NOT making this up.
Trading began today on Bankruptcy Futures at the CME.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:46 - ID#34459)
Jan 99 Platinum $345.50 +$4.50

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:49 - ID#34459)
A perfect Elliot 5 wave count up on the Dec gold 5 minute bar chart over the last 4 hours. Check it out.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:52 - ID#432395)
WHY the HELL does anybody think that CLINTER has anything to do
with the economy doing so well??? He could be easily replaced by a
monkey, keep the same gang of THUGS, and nothing would change!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:52 - ID#233199)
@ Cobra
For us not Ellioit people - what does that mean?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:56 - ID#31868)
crazytimes, Namaste' gulp and a puff to something...not too much though
drink a shot of whatever it was...slowly drink a beer or glass of wine and then give the speech or presentation of your life...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 10:57 - ID#34459)
SWPI & 5 Waves
It Could mean....Could... a reversal in trend is taking place.
in this case odds favor the move will follow the direction of the 5 wave impulse. In this case it's up....Caveat Emptor.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:02 - ID#288186)
Cobra; I've got my fingers crossed. This 5 wave sequence would bode well
with the head and shoulders formation I mentioned yesterday. It
was written and proposed by Cliff Droke on Vronsky's site on
Monday.........BTW, still got my fingers, I'm not
superstitious.......legs now crossed........C'MON GOLD!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:07 - ID#147201)
Esotericist re Tar baby
Are you famil;iar with "Uncle Remus" ? If not, let me know and I'll try to help on analogy. Charlie

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:09 - ID#34459)
I have observed over the years that XAU in most instances, will lead and presede the POG or Spot Gold. Yesterday in the A.M. the XAU made a key reversal from strong down to strong up and POG was flat today..... more follow through with the XAU and POG finaly gives us a buy signal with the 5 wave upmove.. Message to me is Gold Stocks can and do forecast POG by as much as a week in some cases.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:11 - ID#224230)
In one sense, Clinton HAS EVERYTHING to do with why the markets and the economy ( seem ) to be doing O.K.

In the sense that, leading by extreme personal example, he has taught the public that the truth is not what matters, but what counts is the sophisticated spin that one can put on the truth with words.

JoeSixpack isn't in the slightest bit interested in the truth - about the true state of the economy and national finances, or about what goes on behind all the other closed doors in society.

Give'em heros to talk about at the bar....McGuire, Glenn, Sosa, Tyson? ( now back in business because Magic Johnson and Mohammed Ali say he'll be a good boy ) , etc.

Just don't overestimate the collective desire for a dose of reality - never mind how small a dose.

This whole POG-DOW price mismatch is a metaphor for the mass illusion USA has bought into. Softporn, Massconsumer made4TV sporting "stories" and NASA for Seniors. Spare me !

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:13 - ID#339274)
FWIW When the XAU clears 76,a new vista has been created on the daily.
Platinum leading the way.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:14 - ID#371229)
Gibbous, "To Hell...", Because perception is everything. Because talking heads say it is so,
and "knowing" better does not matter. What counts is what is, I presume that is why your getting back into equities ( probably on the overbought side right now ) . There is much that "we" all know better, but if the point is making money what do you do? If the thug gang controls the markets do you stand aside and refuse your share because you know better? Idealist philosophies are great in academia, but belief in real money ( gold ) sure isn't making anyone much.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:14 - ID#242325)
XAU rally looks like a phony. Very low volume. The rally will fail soon unless volume picks up.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:15 - ID#431200)
Another pool (BBC) So is he off the hook?
Bill Clinton must be heaving a sigh of relief. After all, the mid-term elections were considered by many to be a referendum on impeachment.
But the comeback kid has worked his magic again. Key election battelegrounds in the US have fallen to the Democratic party.
The Republicans had hoped to consolidate their hold over Congress, fully expecting to take seats from the Democrats like sweets from a child. But the tables were turned.
The Democratic party are predicted to make gains in the House of Representatives and look like keeping their present strength in the Senate, where they had been expected to lose up to four seats.
Evidence so far shows that the impeachment issue did little harm to the President. Women and African-Americans turned out in high numbers to support the Democratic party and many voters looked to have been turned off by the Republican's strategy.
So does this mean the U.S President has weathered the Lewinsky storm and will come out smelling of roses?
The White House said Bill Clinton was "encouraged" by the results.
Former special counsel to the President, David Gergen, thinks the First Lady's strong campaign performance played a large part in the result.
"It appears women have turned out in force and have been rallying behind Hillary Clinton in particular."
Two of the major Republican players in the moves to impeach President Clinton, Congress Speaker Newt Gingrich and House Jukiciary Committee Chairman Henry Hyde, have retained their seats.
A victory for the Republicans would have been seen as a mandate to press on with the investigation of the President and the attempt to remove him from office, but now, with the hearings set to start in a two weeks time, the survival of President Clinton seems assured.
What do you think?
Is he off the hook?
Your reaction in full
So is he off the hook?
Have your say:
Yes 
No 
Send us your comments:
Your E-mail Address:

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:17 - ID#224230)
@chas - tarbaby
Uncle Remus ??? No I haven't heard of him - I'm English.
You know.....Alice in Wonderland, Enid Blyton and oh yes, I almost forgot....Bill Shakespeare !

But I still would like to know why the epithet "TarBaby" is funny. It SOUNDS funny. do proceed.......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:17 - ID#224230)
@chas - tarbaby
Uncle Remus ??? No I'm not - I'm English. You know.....Alice in Wonderland, Enid Blyton and oh yes, I almost forgot....Bill Shakespeare !

But I still would like to know why the epithet "TarBaby" is funny. It SOUNDS funny. do proceed.......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:21 - ID#267344)
what authority empowers the officials of the District of Columbia to keep election results secret?
Medical Marijuana Wins at Polls

Voters in Arizona, Nevada and the state of Washington said ``Yes'' to medical use of marijuana Tuesday, while election officials in the District of Columbia said ``Shhh.''

Officials in the nation's capital decided not to release results of the medical marijuana vote there, under pressure from a disapproving Capitol Hill.


On Tuesday, voters rejected a legislative requirement that marijuana be approved by the Food and Drug Administration or Congress before all the drugs would be eligible for prescription.

District of Columbia officials decided to keep voting results there secret because of a decision on Capitol Hill last month. Congress amended a district budget bill to forbid spending money on the referendum because it opposes legalization of marijuana.

The American Civil Liberties Union said it would file a Freedom of Information Act request to get the vote results released. If the ACLU succeeds in getting the vote certified and the initiative wins, Congress can still veto the measure by a majority vote in both houses.


(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:24 - ID#34459)
Going Up!!
XAU is in afterburner mode...100% power

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:25 - ID#31868)
the truth is stranger than fiction...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:26 - ID#339274)
Everything looks green : )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:26 - ID#288186)
Cobra; What's the XAU currently at? TIA
: )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:27 - ID#432395)
RAN@11:14--My sentiments exactly!
" Idealist philosophies are great in academia, but belief in real money ( gold ) sure isn't making anyone much".

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:28 - ID#284255)
Most of the option/future sites that have been listed at Kitco are on this page.

Use your search/find function to find them.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:31 - ID#34459)
XAU up 4.52%.......76.41 last

Think Greennnnnnnnnn

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:33 - ID#258427)
RANGY???Yahoo shows no trading
in Rangy today...anyone know anything important?? ( about Rangy that is!! )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:34 - ID#372228)
Thank you for your response on "Due Process of Law" it is very informative...once again thank you.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:36 - ID#372228)
Thanks for the response and the kind words...I will continue with my comments...Thanks again!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:45 - ID#153110)
@trader_vic @38%
You're welcome. Thanks for asking the question. You might want to check out my response this a.m. to zeke on "registering to vote". Not all Americans are registered and now only 38% of those who are voted. The number of people willing to participate in insanity is dwindling. I ask again, would a san man commit the security of his life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to the vote of a secret crowd and a rigged count ?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:45 - ID#147201)
esotericist re UNCLE REMUS
I am "roughly" familiar with English Lit. back to Beowulf. Alice has a fine place in my thoughts. Uncle Remus is the epitomy of the old Southern black slave whos is in charge of the others. A fine gentle soul who is wise beyond most imaginations at the time and now. Joel Chandler Harris spent years in the late 1800's collecting the stories of the Black folks which were intended to teach the wisdom of cooperation and escape during the long period of Black slavery. Humor was the method of delivery and the nuggets of wisdom were in the hands of animals. The primary animal was Br'r Rabbit. The tar baby comes in where br'r fox and br'r bear were trying to catch br'r rabbit. They set a "tar baby" , a sticky tar susbstance up in br'r rabbit's path. They knew br'r rabbit would bow up over this and smack the tar baby because he couldn;t talk. Br'r rabbit got caught in the tar baby and the sneaky pair were going to fry him. But br'r rabbit said do what ever you want, but please don't throw me in the briar patch. Well, the lunk heads did and br'r rabbit hollows back to them- HAH, I'se born and bred in the briar patch!!

Richard Burke
(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:46 - ID#411318)
Cobra - I am looking at the 60 min charts. For XAU slow moving average has crossed fast moving average and price has broken above the downtrend line from the tops since mid month. It has also exceeded the mid month top of 76.2. So far so good. However, the HUI while the fast MA has just crossed above the slow MA, it still has to get over 85.6 to cross above downtrend line. Also, the HUI is lagging XAU in percentage gain today by quite a bit. Old Gold is concerned about the lack of volume resulting in short rally. How important is the HUI action to your thinking about the extent of the rally? Is the XAU going to have to retest the 76.2? What effect do you see the volume playing?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:46 - ID#350194)
1999-2002 - The Golden Years?
The battle between the Bulls and the Bears appears to be reaching epic proportions as we might expect at this historic moment. We are still in the Box ( $280-310 ) . If Gold wins, the US dollar loses to the Euro and Yen, and the Stock Market collapses, these last few years are going to be looked back upon as the 'good old days' by the majority of the NA population. The world will go forward but nothing will be anything like it is right now. Carpe Diem!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:46 - ID#339274)
FWIW Xau is blasting out of a strong head and shoulder config.
neckline was 76,the volume is 20% higher.82 is target now.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:49 - ID#288186)
Cyclist; Do you have any comments regarding a possible head & shoulders
formation for Gold? TIA Foxman

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:50 - ID#432395)
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
If that PIG Clinter, walks away from this, while other men have lost everything for doing a hell of a lot less, the Merkan people might just
as well hang their head and walk back to the barn!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:52 - ID#284255)
The Capital is Burning
There is no arsonist on the loose in Washington D.C., but the capital
is burning.

The capital to which I refer is loan capital. The G7 nations recently
pledged a $90 billion gift to the International Monetary Fund as a
means to rescue the next batch of bankrupt countries. The last time I
looked in the financial press, the breadline was forming right behind
Brazil. As we all know, when the IMF is called upon for a rescue
package, it means that there are massive amounts of sovereign,
commercial and personal loans which never can be repaid from those
conventional repayment sources, i.e., profits and asset sales.
Technically, these loans become worthless and the lender's capital
goes up in flames.

This destruction of real wealth is eventually doused with IMF loans.
Where does the IMF get its loan capital? From participating member
nations, which must print the money or add to the public debt in order
to create the funds. It doesn't take much to see that either of these
fundraising methods is inherently inflationary and eventually results
in the erosion of real taxpayer wealth. This has been going on since
the days of the Civil War, World War I and World War II, when the
destruction of real wealth found ways to reach progressively new

With Y2k closing in at alarming speed, why I am worried about the IMF
doling out money to bankrupt countries? Well, the recent acquiescence
of G7 nations to bestow $90 billion of additional funds on the IMF
might have something to do with the hushed fear of Y2k meltdowns
across the wide spectrum of emerging nations...not to mention a few
mature countries which will invariably wind up behind the Y2k curve in
a meaningful way.

On a recent ABC Nightline program, White House Y2k czar John Koskinen
effectively said as much when he pointed one finger across the
Atlantic Ocean and another finger across the Pacific Ocean as he
assessed where the Y2k damage was likely to be the most severe. And
not long after Mr. Koskinen's attempt to downplay the potential impact
of Y2k on the U.S. economy, the Federal Reserve followed suit. On
October 29, the following bit of nonchalance appeared on the newswire:

WASHINGTON, Oct 29 ( Reuters ) - Federal Reserve Governor Edward Kelley
on Thursday played down the possibility that computer problems at the
turn of the century could push the United States into a deep recession.

A careful reading of Governor Kelley's speech transcript reveals a
fair amount of pessimism regarding the final outcome, but his
conclusions are upbeat nonetheless. However, the very nature of the
speech reveals that the Federal Reserve is concerned about a
Y2k-induced recession. Governor Kelley should have confessed that it
is still too early to make an accurate call regarding the possibility
of a Y2k-induced recession in the U.S. This would have been a more
forthright conclusion. Regardless, Governor Kelley's remarks did
little to dispel serious concerns about the likely negative effect of
overseas Y2k-related problems on the U.S. economy. At least Mr.
Koskinen was willing to admit to the obvious.

My sense is that as a result of global Y2k failures and disruptions,
the loan capital of the world's banking system will burn out of
control, and if the G7 is consistent with its recent behavior, it will
jump through a ring of fire to extinguish the flames in order to
preserve the general public's confidence in the fault-ridden
fractional reserve banking system.
Eventually, this free flowing spigot of money could have wildly
inflationary consequences in a post-Y2k global economy, which
strengthens the case for diversifying a portion of one's financial
assets into some of the traditional inflation hedges, e.g., precious
metals bullion, stockpiles of essential commodities and 13-week US
Treasury bills, which can be rolled over at frequent intervals to
capture rising interest rates.


Y2k Weatherman Comments

If you've been procrastinating about preparedness, now is the time to
get ready. Time is running out. You don't have a year left. You
need to have your plans in place in the next 3-6 months.

Review Randy's Y2k Insurance Plan for proposed "readiness" dates:

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:53 - ID#350194)
Thank's once again for sharing - Sharefin!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:54 - ID#277224)
Just a thought but maybe we could take up a $4.99
collection from the BUGS along with a few quid from
the mining industry and hire some fast talkin, slow
walkin,son of a b*tch to spread the "manipulation
of the POG conspiracy".You know, make it up front and

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:55 - ID#339274)
FWIW NEM sliced through 22 and has a clear break out on the daily chart.
Volume has been picking up strongly since November 2.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:56 - ID#237299)
clone: medical marijuana
This is not the *first* time the good people of Arizona voted for this.
The first time this was created by popular referendum, with such a landslide vote, that little doubt could remain what the people wished.

In addition to being a recognition that eeeevil devil weed, and eeeevil narcotics *do* indeed have medical compassionate uses- it also showed that the people did NOT believe that the war on drugs was working. ( there was much sentiment towards treatment vs prison for offenders )

Promptly after it passed the first time, the attorney general and the wise governor declared the wishes of the people invaled- obviously we could not be trusted to think for ourselves. Obviously we were deranged, and they would protect us simple folk from our own errors.

If anyone thinks Mozel paranoid for his views on the secret process- look to our state- it happened.

I would not be surprised if tomorrow the AG declares it invaled again.

( they're scared shi**les, about loosing all that cool war on drugs money from the feds )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 11:58 - ID#34459)
XAU has done it's thing, to sustain the upmove POG must now preform.
It's showtime as they say on broadway. Both Gold and Silver look like head and shoulder formations and could climb from here.. They must, or XAU will fall back.. 76.00 area may have to be retested tho as this was a short-term breakout area... WATCH could FLY... It must or down goes XAU.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:00 - ID#237299)
Opps: Invaled = invalid

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:01 - ID#342397)
Might as well start walkin. He HAS gotten away with it, and there is surely more of "it" to come.

Faith in the good judgement of the American people has sadly been misplaced.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:02 - ID#333127)
I'm a seller of xau if we see 79 or 80

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:03 - ID#298259)
Not surprising I guess...CAU...I-37 initiative
November 4, 1998

To: Canyon Resources Shareholders and/or Interested Investors

Re: Montana I-137 Initiative Result

Dear Investors:

On November 3, 1998, the anti-cyanide mining initiative, I-137, was passed by a vote of the Montana electorate, 53% for, 47% against.
Canyon Resources and the mining community plan to file suit promptly in the appropriate court ( s ) challenging the validity of the new law, on the following bases:

-- Prior to October 22, 1998, "for-profit" companies were prohibited by law ( previously passed I-125 ) from participating in the electoral process. On that date, Judge Charles Lovell of the US District Court ( federal ) ruled that I-125 is unconstitutional. Thus, the mining community was prevented by law, now overturned, from presenting its case to the electorate with adequate time.

-- I-137 itself is an unconstitutional law, on the basis of due process considerations, in that it would result in a taking of property without any compelling public policy interest ( since environmental safety concerns are well protected and monitored with existing laws and regulations ) .

Our attorneys believe that it is likely that I-137 will be declared
unconstitutional, or at a minimum, be overturned.
Canyon plans to protect its 9.2 million ounce McDonald asset with the
minimum budget that will insure maintenance of the mineral rights ( leases ) and legal rights.

If you have any questions about these matters, please don't hesitate to call me or Cheryl Martin, at ( 303 ) 278-8464.

Richard H. De Voto ( signed )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:07 - ID#277224)
Anyone have a list of the main companies on which the
XAU is based and possibly how it is calculated.Thanks
in advance.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:08 - ID#34459)
Dec 98 AU
Looks like the Gods are going to smile on all of us goldbugs after all.
Dec Gold looks very Froggy.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:10 - ID#147201)
Gibbous re Clintler
He's a congenital liar and if he gets off, we have no rule of law. The barn may not be there.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:11 - ID#320202)
( All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others. ) ID#432395:
If that PIG Clinter, walks away from this, while other men have lost everything for doing a hell of a lot less, the
Merkan people might just
as well hang their head and walk back to the barn!!

oh pleeeeeease, what do you think went on in the world all through history, or just take the last 40 years in europe, what is so new about a lying politician ???? Sex and lies, is every where !!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:13 - ID#369352)
I agree that a lot of the time the XAU leads the gold market higher. This time I believe will be no different...especially with gold being manipulated down so that the friends of AG won't have to go bankrupt...
As for the XAU, IF it continues its' path up from here the technicals confirm the last move in the XAU went from 50 to about 90, if you do a 50-60% retracement ( Fibinaci ) you end up with 70+ this is where the XAU turned around and headed up. Also, it has stayed above its' 200 DMA on this last move down...this is also bullish...Also the 5 min. chart on the XAU today looks like a ATLAS doesn't even look back...especially with gold only up $1.00. So, this may be early...but I think that this could be a tradeable rally...especially in light of what I believe will be the end of the sucker rally in the stock know what they the rumor, sell the fact....this fact is over!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:14 - ID#34459)
MakeUp Of The XAU
Save and print this for future reference........

Percentage is the amount a move by any one stock will affect the average...

Glad to be of assistance..

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:17 - ID#31868)
XAU page for those who are in need of it...Namaste'

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:17 - ID#242325)
NEM volume pocking up nicely and this stock often leads the XAU. Let's hope volume soon picks up in the other XAU stocks as well

I really do not watch the HUI very much. But I do track the TGL and that is lagging the XAU today. But that is usually the case early in gold bulls when the juniors lag the seniors.

I'm wondering about a possible double top in the stock market before long. If we get back to 9300 or so on the Dow without a significant correcction, the stage will be set for a really big drop IMHO.

The person who posted here earlier saying he was plunging back into stocks because he now knows there is an all poeerful mafia that will keep the bull rolling forever had better be pretty nimble. That is the kind of sentiment normally seen at or near major tops.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:19 - ID#288295)
XAU components

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:20 - ID#277224)
Thanks again,very quick.This will help provide
a bit more insight.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:23 - ID#242325)
Aren't many stocks rallying because of hoped for improvement 6 or 9 months out? Why can't XAU do the same? If smart insiders like RJ feel POG will be moving higher next year, does it not make sense to by gold stoks before this happens.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:25 - ID#147201)
lady bug re clintler
You sound like you kind of favor this scum. I hope I'm wrong, Charlie

Richard Burke
(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:27 - ID#411318)
For the past two days, PEI has warned of "possible crash" daily, "Caution" weekly, and "Currently Bearish" monthly. They must have gone short on Friday after warning of a short cover rally.

Cobra: I hear what you say and agree POG must now do its thing.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:28 - ID#320202)
........let's say I don't like the lying
enough said

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:28 - ID#34459)
All Systems Are Go
Lock and Load, place your stops and lets go....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:28 - ID#212197)
Ethnic and Religious Identity
I found the controversial discussion yesterday very interesting and would like to find an internet discussion forum where the questions of ethnic and religious identity, and what this identity does to us, can be freely discussed.

Does anybody know about such a forum?

However, this discussion should include but not be focused exclusively on jewish religious and ethnic identity. It should include a multitude of ethnicities and religiously engaged people, who share the interest to find out, what their own identity does to them in limiting or broadening their view of the world, the universe, and other peoples of different believes.

For instance: it should include the positive side of love towards members of the own group and try to find the point where this positive attitude towards the own group crosses the borderline to chauvinistic attitudes towards others.

I do not think the kitco forum would be the right place for such discussions. But if anybody knows about such forums, please let us know.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:31 - ID#153110)
Excuse me for bluntness, but you are perhaps giving a wrong impression about rule of Law. We are governed now by the military power or war power and the tribunals in the states and the federal administer a law. The issue is shall we be governed by Martial Law Rule or by rule of common-Law sub Deo sub Lege.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:32 - ID#365216)
Reactions please to the election of . . .
professional wrestler and action movie actor Jesse "the Body"
Ventura as governor of Minnesota. Talk about kicking some A
and taking names. Hope he doesn't wimp out to the establishment.
If it just weren't so damn cold up there.

That is all.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:34 - ID#258427)
@General....He is termed..
"A Ross Perot" type of guy....can't be all bad, eh...grin..

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:34 - ID#28994)
Carmack.. 11.54
Because it is a conspiracy the ideal man for your $4.99 project would be Sharefin.
The only problem would be.... if you removed Y2k from his vocabulary he would become speachless.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:35 - ID#31868)
General, Namaste' gulp and a puff to reaction...
I love it...plain and simple...yup...uh huh...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:36 - ID#31868)
skinny, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...
Do you go blind when you read poetry?...Just curious...yup...uh huh...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:36 - ID#153110)
The identity of nations is self-declared, as shown in the Declaration of Independence and the Balfour Declaration. For what a nation is, read Vattel. The import for gold is International Socialism has failed; re-nationalization is afoot. Sovereigns must have gold.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:37 - ID#390415)
Thanks for the XAU link.

It may help ease the pain of the election results.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:39 - ID#277224)
Very interesting that each of the eleven companies
that are included in the XAU are up.BMG-6%,GGO-6%,and

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:39 - ID#369352)
Future and Gold in the Future
To All: You can mark the days before the "End of the Dollar" to the first quarter of 1999...There is too much evidance that other major countries around the world are shedding the dollar as a reserve currency...Japan is accumulating gold and selling treasuries so that they can provide an "Eastern Monetary Currency" for trade...this reflects the independence of the east to shed the shackles that the west has placed upon them...they don't like to be told how to run their countries by the snake oil salemen of the west...

You also have the EMU on the scene with a currency that is mostly debt free and backed by gold ( 15% or so ) and an economy as large and as strong as the US of A...And you have several countries now saying that they will hold a majority of their reserves in Euros instead of $$$ ( such as India, china, japan, indonesia, Brazil, have to assume that for them to do that, they will have to sell their US$ and convert that into ECU's or Yen...that means that the repaitriation of the US$ will come flooding in like a dam that just cracked open....IF this happens, and I think it will very very soon, our US$ would be lucky to be worth 1/2 to 1/3 of what it goes for now...translated into gold terms, 2-3 times its' current value....this would also be the deathnell for the dollar! Those who act now to buy gold at fire sale prices will be those who will be in the position of power later....remember the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules...this time is no different.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:41 - ID#34459)
Still Looks Great
New high in XAU and Dec AU cooperating nicely....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:42 - ID#365216)
Skinny. . . you crack me up
but if push comes to shove and Y2K is a disaster, I would want guys
like sharefin in my camp as friends as neighbors. Shar ( ing )
Fin ( ancial ) , keep posting my friend. . . some do appreciate it.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:44 - ID#333126)
interesting economic news today


" Inventories increased $0.7 billion to $449.1 billion for the 20th increase in the last 21 months"

demand increases as the savings rate goes negative. wonderful. where do we go from here? a larger negative savings rate? or a drop in demand ( but
aren't we in a economic boom, daddy? )


(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:47 - ID#284255)
I'd be more than willing to link good articles on the subject but feel I wouldn't be a good writer on the subject.

And there are already some/plenty of articles of a similiar vein already linked.
I'm not totally Y2k biased.
You'd be able to find at least 1000++ links on my site in relation to gold, markets and politics.

And I'd have another 2000 odd links mainly on the markets and gold
But I haven't had time to put them in as yet.
I need a secretary....and a job that pays.....

Sorry I've been neglecting the gold focus of late.
But I have been rather busy with that other demon.

I'll see if I can improve my form a tad. ^o-o^

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:49 - ID#212197)
@mozel: I think you misunderstood my question.
The identity of a nation is one thing. The ethnic identity of a human being is another thing. There are human beings with an ethnic identity living in nations which are alien to them. I'm sure you have noticed this phenomenon.

I do not think that what we find to be declared or "self-declared" to be a nation always has it's justification in the ethnic identity ( or -ties ) of the humans who live there.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:51 - ID#277224)
Got to like your "lock and load" expression.Good to see
some optimism yesssssssss!The last few days have been
dismal.It would be great to see this smoke wagon kicked
into gear.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:52 - ID#284255)
Try these couple of forums.
You can do searches on them.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:52 - ID#147201)
mozel re law
I appreciate your 12:31, but I meant LAW period. No law- dictatorship. Thanx for your incisive shots.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:54 - ID#284255)
Also this one.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:55 - ID#194311)
I love it... Jesse "The Mind" Ventura for prez.
Body slam for Bill "The Dog" Clinton.

Bill Clinton is a sorry excuse and outright disgrace to males. He is more valuable to the feminists swinging there as "a good example of male pigs", all the while they bad mouth males, and I'm sick of it. It is the duty of good, decent males to have this guy removed.

As I'm sure if there was whoring female for president the cat knives would have her out in a flash.

War is a male backlash towards matriarch influences....dig your foxholes.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:56 - ID#267298)
trader_vic, if you could post a few URL's that reference Japan's
buying gold and/or selling treasuries, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in Advance &

Go Gold

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:57 - ID#277224)
That other demon of which you speak is of course
not unrelated to gold as we shall see when 1999
kicks in.Keep up the good work!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 12:59 - ID#227238)
Ain't nuttin wrong wit yer focus. .... It's greatfully appreciated. Should events coalesce as indicated, you will have been responsible for gently nudging many people in the right direction. ...... Now get that house sold. OK?

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:02 - ID#348257)
General, and all the troopies...
Jesse "The Body" Ventura elected Governor is the only welcome news in last night's entire doings. Can you just imagine him reaching the White House? President Ventura calling a press conference and screaming menacingly at the cameras - "And on April 25th, at Madison square Garden, I'm gonna twist that twerp Saddam Hussein into a pretzel in our steel cage match." Will he call back Sergeant Slaughter to be Secretary of Defense? Bruno Sammartino ambassador to Italy? Walter "Killer" Kowalski as Attorney General?
Andre the Giant...where are you now that we need you?

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:04 - ID#348257)
EJ - re XSYS
You are talking about the past...I am talking about the immediate future.

Do not confuse linear logic with astrology. You will lose the moment, if it indeed be here.
Man doth not liveth by Fundamental Analysis alone...

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:05 - ID#348257)
Fred in Vienna
You MUST find the ORIGINAL B&W "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" with a young Kevin McCarthy. Superb movie!!!! Take it from me.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:05 - ID#212197)
@sharefin: thanks for the practical support.
I couldn't access the first one. ( at12:52 )
Can you e-mail it to me?

Thanks a lot.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:07 - ID#266105)
General/Jesse Ventura

As a native Minnesotan now in Oregon, I watched the Minnesota
gubernatorial debate on C-Span. What struck me was the evasiveness
of the major party candidates in response to questions requiring
specifics, a practiced dwindling off into the safety of vague generalities. Mr. Ventura, on the other hand, was of blunt candor.
He didn't seem to know that mode of which the other two seemed
to know no other.

Like, this is your brain and this is your brain politicized.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:07 - ID#147201)
kiwi re Jesse
He may well be the break in the establishment. I got first dibs on Sharefin in my foxhole. We need to stay with Jesse and booster the whole concept.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:07 - ID#348257)
I use a Mac for all my net activities.
Actually, a Power Computing Mac clone with system 7.5. I'm a right-brainer all the way.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:08 - ID#153110)
@chas re Law
You're welcome. Here's another that I hope is incisive. All dictatorships have a law. Everything done by Hitler in Germany and Stalin in the USSR was legal. They were the chief executives in constitutional dictatorsips. It is the kind of Law by which you are governed that determines your form of government. Our government was founded to secure the natural rights of man and the common-Law was the instrument of that security. The restructured goverment we have, which is masquerading as constitutional, is actually a constitutional dictatorship enacted into statute by Congress. It is a de facto government by fiat.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:09 - ID#34459)
New Highs XAU
Elliott might say........Looks like third wave action.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:16 - ID#227238)
I share yer natal origin. Just talked my bro in MPLS a few minutes ago, being a good liberal he was somewhat aghast over the guber thing but apparently his 20 something daughter was delighted. She was quoted as saying "he was her man" ... or something like that. A ray of hope for the future????

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:18 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...let us not forget the legend...
Haystacks Calhoun...Secretary of Agriculture...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:19 - ID#266105)

I happened to catch some late nite analysis, CNN I think,
when the talk got around to Ventura for a good while. It was
quite telling, in the way just exactly who is some kind of joke.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:19 - ID#258142)
EURO is coming!!!
Today I received a letter from my bank, addressed to all holders of business accounts. Here are some excerpts from this letter, that might be interesting for folks, living outside EMU, in my poor translation from Dutch.
"During the period from Jan 1, 1999 till 2002 you can decide yourself, when to migrate to EURO-account Payment in cash, pin-card, chipknip, credit cards in EURO will be possible only after Jan 1, 2002. All our product are available in EUROs starting from Jan 1, 1999 In general, your account ( s ) will be converted within 24 hours Account numbers will remain the same". [probably, major credit cards companies are not ready yet - d]
"It is not necessary to open a separate account in EURO. You can your convert your existing account ( s ) into EURO at no charge If you want to convert your account from Jan 1, 1999 please, let us know ASAP"
"If you have more then one account in different EMU currencies, you can convert them all [in this case] we advise you to do it and reduce number of accounts to one"
"Some of interest rates, usually published by Dutch Central Bank will not be in place starting from Jan 1999 Please, revise all your current contract for references We shall provide more detail information soon"
"You can make EURO transfers from your existing account [in Dutch guilders] at no cost"
"All customers, who use their computers for bank transactions and stock exchange operations will receive new version of software, that will be EURO-enabled and Y2K-proof."
"Every EMU-country still control international transactions Banks have to report to CB about payments to foreign recipients Starting from Jan 1, 1999 there will be two international transactions order forms "EasyPay" for transactions inside EMU and "WorldPay" for the rest of the world"
"Starting from Jan 1, 1999 it will be not possible to trade one EMU-currency to another EMU-currency "
"It will be possible [without conversion to EURO -d] to transfer money from one EMU-currency account to another EMU-currency account by using euro-conversion rates" [no buy - sale rates, everything is counted via EURO-exchange rate at 1:1 - d]

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:23 - ID#433172)
I agree, the ethnic disscussion was helpful. These are important issues and should be thrashed out, whats more they can be . Not to is much more harmful over the long run and I fear we will one day find this out. A sea of troubles. King was succinct with his " can't we all just get along?" The day may come when that is a bigger consideration than how wealthy or important anybody is.
The USA is more at risk and has the greatest potential contribution for unity than any country. I cringe when I hear that" my people", 'my brothers" line, anything that doesn't include everybody.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:25 - ID#35571)
Much of the increase in gold shares and POG has been driven by weak bond prices this morning. Bonds ar starting to strengthen a little perhaps now.....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:28 - ID#25490)
Happy Guy Fawkes day everyone
Remember. Remember
The fifth of November.
Treason and plot.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:28 - ID#34459)
Platinum & XAU
Platinum up $6.50 XAU 78.22 up 7.00% today......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:29 - ID#35571)
Bonds again
Nope, they're dropping some more.

Hang on to your hats. We're getting ready to hit the wall of the eye and put some NEW fire in the hole.

John Disney
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:33 - ID#24135)
Alert ..
to all..
Soothsayer son advised today that
he had takem profits in some semi-
conductor stock and had bought back
into gold mines .. dont know which
ones .. he sold out a bit too early
in last run up .. I sold much too
late ..

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:38 - ID#35571)
Rattlesnake waking up?
If rates go up TOO fast from collapsing treasuries as flight money goe home to await anticipated rate cuts, the Fed will have to step in again. Probably by recalling or buying on the open market.

This of course will be very bullish for the POG in dollars.

There could be some real whipsaws in bonds, treasuries, and utilities as the powers that be duke it out.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:40 - ID#25490)
takem profits when you can

"I never bought at the exact low, and never sold at the exact high."
Bernard Baruch answered when asked how he did so well with his investments


Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:40 - ID#377196)
And the third wave is the biggest wave. Sometimes.

Go gold. Just sold Phillipean Fund and bought HGMCY today in my
girl friends account. Made some money but it is time for HGMCY to
rock and roll and for FPF to settle back.

GO Gold. GD

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:43 - ID#246224)
POG @ "market", Ha!
Gold price is dictated. Public gold 'markets' are the tail of this dog. The POG is actually an exchange rate mechanism which relates the current world dominant US$ to gold. The reason why POG is down is because it suits the purposes of those who control the price. The 'market' knows that the real powers will rip them to pieces in this market if they attempt to actually play it as a market. It is not a true market and never has been.

Gold is the base currency for the world monetary system. Its role has been obscured in order to sell the vast majority on the legitimacy of the fiat paper money system. When you look at the POG think "exchange rate"; also think "set price and set range"; and "there is a reason here".

The Euro is a big project; a world shaking change in the fiat system. Those who consider nations and thier currencies as a *_MEANS_* have designed this Euro to be a bridge from the abused US$ to the future. The POG is set at this level ( approx 290-295 ) in order to facilitate the construction of this alternative fiat currency. When the construction project is finished and the next phase in the planned migration away from the US$ to the Euro is begun then we will see a revaluation of this arbitrary POG in US$ to a higher number.

The experts will have all sorts of 'reasons' why this is happening. None will say that the POG in US$ is rising because the Euro is gaining support against the dollar. At some point the Euro will have enough support that the powers will simply cut the control lines and allow the POG in US$ to take its fight into the sky. This will have the effect of bancrupting confidence in the US$ and the transition will be complete.

It is not what it appears and never has been. Stop looking at this like pig iron or hog jowls. Most of us can not tell the tree for the bark, let alone the forest for the trees. When ever someone says 'poor performance considering the turmoil in the world today' then know that they are seeing pig iron, not gold as the real basis of the monetary system.

If it were not so then why do all the BIS standards relate currencies to a gold weight? And what changes when the 'values' change? Is it the exchange rate on the gold weight side or the exchange rate on the paper fiat currency side. We need to gain some altitude here and see things from the perpective of those who control economic and fincial resources which are the equivalent of entire large nations. These are the powers.

Clue: In the 1930's the British Pound was scuttled as the 'reserve currency of the world'. This was accomplished by ruining the fiscal management of the Pound and then cutting it loose from gold.

Clue: During the planned transition from the chaos of WWII to the post war period the US Dollar was selected to be the new 'reserve currency of the world' at Bretton Woods.

Clue: approx 30 years later the US dollar had been fiscally mismanaged and then cut loose form gold. There was no successor currency to take its place. This move was a warning shot fired across the bow of the USS America. The currency was weakened and placed in a relativistic system of 'floating exchange rates'.

Clue: The US Dollar was devalued in its exchange rate to the base currency gold by 91%. The US Dollar continued to be mismanaged by the USA and so a new currency has been created to replace it as the 'reserve currency of the world'. The Euro is that currency.

Clue: The debt mismanagement on the part of the US government has continued and gone from approximately 350 Billion US$ outstanding debt in the late 1970's to approximately 5750 Billion US$ outstanding debt in the late 1990's. This is a factor of 16.4 . A reasonable devaluation of the US Dollar in terms of its gold weight would be 94%.

Clue: $290 x 16.4 = $4756/troy ounce.

Clue: Why do you think that the gold short position on the part of specialist hedge funds was put into place using European gold in terms of the US$ reserve currency? This financial nuclear weapon will be detonated at the appropriate time and no sooner.

And at an altitude of 4756 we will see it very clearly ina whole new perspective.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:45 - ID#377196)
I expect, like most of you, for Alan to have his check book out and
to start buying those bonds by the truck load. What a wonderful way to
add liquidity to a suffering world. And for a way to get the price of
gold up to $350 to $375.

GO Gold. GD

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:45 - ID#33184)
Gollum - if rattlesnake bites, where do you see dollar going?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:50 - ID#210282)
How can we cleanse our government without impeachment? -Have the Republicans failed?
All: Joe Farah's editorial is worth a read. He argues fairly convincingly that the Republicans have failed by rolling over and playing ball with WJC, instead of pushing agenda that the American people want. Focusing only on impeachment with little else on the burner is clearly a mistake. The opposition is too clever for this.

Joe Farah's last comment is especially illuminating. He said that the problem with our government is not just that WJC is in power. I agree. It is the entire system that allowed him to get as much power as he has, not just the perturbation that is due to WJC. The passage of time may continue to corrupt our system, and make it even harder for any cleansing of corruption.

So -- as Joe Farah said, we should move swiftly forward with impeachment proceedings -- and we ( the powers that be, whoever they are ) should not restrict the topics that Kenneth Starr can address. Because -- we cannot afford to wait for the sake of the American people, and what is left of our democracy.

I know what the response of the 'powers that be' will be -- that they cannot afford the disclosure of the drug dealings in Arkansas and elsewhere -- or the murders and coverups -- done not by WJC, but by his shady supporters, who are the real threat to our government ( and the American people ) . Are these individuals so deeply invoved that they cannot be exctracted so that honest people can do their work?

Yes -- I understand why Kennetth Starr was told to lay off sensitive topics that could be embarrassing to Democrats and Republicans alike. But -- we risk the destruction of our entire democratic system if the corruption does not see the light of day. I know that we still have honest people left -- in the CIA, the FBI, Secret Service, NSA, Justice, etc.

I can only hope that 'the powers that be' have permitted Kenneth Starr to release more evidence to the impeachment committee, now that the elections are over. It is interesting to note that KS' two grand juries are still active ( IMHO ) . Why would this be so if Kenneth Starr has finished his investigations?

Perhaps it is time for some really damaging evidence to be leaked. It would not have to come from Kenneth Starr -- there are plenty of disguntled individuals who have testified, and are frustrated witht the progress of the impeachment proceedings. For example, we still don't know who suppressed the RTC investigation of Madison savings, and as I recall an honest RTC investigator died mysteriously when he got too close to the truth. And why did Ron Brown's younmg female assistant die mysteriously behind locked doors in the Commerce building ( with no evidence of forced entry ) -- within a short time after Ron Brown's violent ( and equally suspicous ) death? There are four AFIP forensic pathologists who claim that the official Ron Brown autopsy report is in error.

Lets clean house, no matter how embarrassing or damaging it is. We may not get another chance.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 13:51 - ID#266105)

The first real test for the Euro comes when the conditions
in one of the member countries would suggest a different monetary
and fiscal policy than that dictated by the ECB. At that point
I would give it an F.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:01 - ID#35571)
treasuries continue to take a beating...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:02 - ID#246224)
The Y2K compliant Euro
The Euro is being implimented as a Y2K compliant system. This system will survive as the only monetary system intact on a global scale. I would call this an information technology 'competitive advantage', wouldn't you?

Europeans are not stupid. They have lived a little bit of history. The European cognisati have not let this opportunity slip from thier fingers. Many of their industries will be as severely effected by Y2K as the rest of the world's. But the monetary system will remain intact .. a new system built for a new time.

If you doubt this then think for as moment: If you were implimenting a new currency system and forsaw the impending collapse of the current monetary/economic system for what it was, wouldn't you plan for a full convertion to the new system for a year in advance of the decimation of the old system? Would you spend your time trying to fix the old system or would you build an entirely new system, being freed from the constraints of backward compatability with previous design and implimentation flaws?

Euro go live date: 1/1/1999.

Modern economies depend upon a modern banking system. Without it the loss of 'progress' in terms of technology and industrial processes would be generations in the recovery.

Why is it, do you think, that the Europeans seem so tunnel vision focused on the Euro and almost completely unimpressed by Y2K problems???

If it was you how would you do this???

A story worth of Macheavelli ( sic ) .

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:02 - ID#194311)
Changes in altitude, changes in attitude.

Gold going to US$4756....sounds good to me, 94% revaluation.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:03 - ID#377196)
Great post. I think I agree with most of what you say. But I might
disagree with your final price of gold. I just can't see $4700 or whatever.

Knowing some Eliot wave. Knowing some history. This brings me to the
following: Stock market to go back to 1987 lows: around 1300.

History of gold shows that gold and the Dow will cross again.
So I can see $1200 to $1400 for gold. It will take a few or more years.
Maybe 6 to 8 . Who knows? It is not even over $300 now!!! But I expect
the above to happen. But only because it has happened many times before.
I suppose the market could hold up, due to inflation, to the 4500 level
and maybe gold would find its way up there. But, I repeat, no one knows
at all. The lenght and extent of a primary bull or bear market can
never be known in advance. It can only be experienced.

You made some very good points and I am not trying to give you a hard time. Let us watch this gold market together. It might even be fun!

Thanks, GD

Richard Burke
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:04 - ID#411318)
Just over 1/2 hour ago the HUI index rose above the descending line ( 60 min chart ) from mid-month top, tested line about 15 min. later and has since gone up further. POG has beeen advancing. Good signs of a rally that might last a few days at least. Big question now is will gold falter at 295 as Allen in hi post a lttle while ago suggests it might. I bought in today when the the XAU fast MA crossed over the slow MA on the 60 min chart.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:08 - ID#33184)
S&P futures
Now testing the rising hourly trendline that began at the low of 1070.50 ( Oct 29, 11am ) and next touched at low of 1113.80 ( Nov 3, 3pm ) . It is currently below the line but would prefer to see a close below it before we all jump on the bandwagon.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:11 - ID#35757)
Allen(USA) (The Y2K compliant Euro)


(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:14 - ID#259160)
Mr. Allen(USA) wonderful post
Mr.Allen ( USA ) I would just like to thank you for the most enlighting post
Wed.Nov.04,1998 13:43.that I have seen on this forum since the days of
ANOTHER.I am going to bookmark it.Keep your head clear,the rest of us
need your thoughts.......................beesting

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:14 - ID#246224)
IMHO I think you would much rather have gold ( now and then ) in that situation rather than US$'s. We will see that US$'s has been made relatively worthless by such a devaluation of the US$ to gold.

US$ denominated debt at fixed terms would be easily repaid with these grossly devalued dollars ( derived from the sale of a few gold coins.

But, IMHO, all of this will be overwhelmed by the collapse of entire nations as Y2K destroys the world we have created. What will remain will be a distictly unappealing situation. Even though this may be the case it will be the 'nation' which has the only intact financial system which will recover the fastest and become the new leader of the nations.

Unfortunately I don't speak German or French.

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:16 - ID#33184)
Interest rate falls in 10-year Treasury note auction - lowest in 20 years
WASHINGTON ( AP ) - Yields on 10-year Treasury notes fell in Wednesday's auction to the lowest level in 20 years.
The yield was 4.825 percent, down from 5.428 percent at the last auction on Aug. 12. It was the lowest rate since regular issuance of the notes began in November of 1978.

The notes will carry a coupon interest rate of 4 3/4 percent with each $10,000 in face value selling for $9,941.00.

A total of $12.0 billion in notes were sold out of bids totaling $18.3 billion.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:16 - ID#194311)
Flash....The Bushwhackers forming a NZ Green party.
Axe and Slash enthused by Jesse Ventura's recent success in US governor election have announced formation of WWF ( World Wrestling Federation ) , one world party.

This is the Third Way!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:17 - ID#246224)
Gold Dancer
Can see your points. I think we are seeing a major demolition project just ahead here. Not an extention of thing from the past to the future, but a sweeping away of the present and it replacement. In that case then anything will go.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:19 - ID#246224)
The Euro would not have to interface with a current system which will be essential dead. I'm thinking 'replacemnt' here.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:20 - ID#257312)

Today's action charted. For XAU--^XAU&d=1d For HUI--^HUI&d=1d

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:23 - ID#246224)
Thank you. I'm just trying to think these things through a bit. SDRer's research has been most helpful. Every now and then I try to post a contribution to the 'net think' here. Its great to have so many here who are contributing to the collective. I have learned a great deal and been well challenged by all.

Good day to you!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:23 - ID#194311)
Economy psyching them out...let's share the angst.
Wednesday November 4 1:49 PM EDT

Economy Makes Many Nervous

By MAGGIE JACKSON AP Business Writer

Plastics maker Joel Barsky isn't sleeping well. He's irritable and can't seem to relax. Watching his sales orders fall and his investments yo-yo, he's growing more
upset by the day.

The angst is spreading.

As the economy's troubles begin to hit Americans, stress levels are rising - along with headaches, hangovers and tummy troubles. The economy is a hot topic on the
couch, say psychotherapists nationwide, and it's even bringing in new patients.

People aren't jumping out windows. But national surveys reveal growing anxiety and pessimism about the slowing economy, and many Americans are wondering, just
how bad will it get?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:25 - ID#246224)

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:31 - ID#369352)
Allen, I applaud you on your posted message on the Euro...the clues were perfect! As you can see, I too see these in the same manner. I would like to add that once the Euro is out and trading, all Europe has to do is revalue their gold upward like a gas peddle and the strength of the Euro would sky rocket...To my way of thinking, that puts them in the drivers seat!! The dollar could not compete without transfering gold back into the treasury as reserve backing...personally, I don't think they have any gold left in Fort least none that is the USA's. Iwouldn't be surprised if Nixon covered up the fact that all of our gold had been transferred to other central banks when the gold window was closed in 1976...interesting we go along thinking that we have all this gold, then the gov't springs it on us that there isn't any!!! Talk about the king not having any clothes!!!

Aragorn III
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:32 - ID#212323)
Classic Kitco humor--"King of the Hill"
Kitco viewers would be well advised to check out a raucous animated comedy on the Fox network Tuedays in the US. I would not be suprised if the show's writers were regular Kitco visitors and posters...many similar issues and philosophies. Good intellegent humour mixed in with the expected Fox-bawdriness.

Example from a recent show...Setting:Arlen, TX
An immigrant neighbor is discussing her family's plans to vacation in Mexico in the coming days. Peggy Hill said that she and her husband Hank used to vacation in Mexico every time the peso was devalued. Hank interjected at that point, "Yep. That sure got old in a hurry."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:35 - ID#212197)
Bought yesterday: GSR and TVX.
Today I bought more GSR.

Go gold! This might be the first move towards a long lasting rally.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:36 - ID#43185)
@Cage Rattler

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:38 - ID#340262)
Key Reversal?
Could we be headed for a key reversal day?

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:39 - ID#33184)
@Gollum - that was my gut feel too, but you never know if someone else
might have some esoteric view of it !!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:39 - ID#43185)
Silver does not look good
It's a good thing gold held it up today, or ...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:46 - ID#333126)
gollum @ t-bonds tanking
stocks and treasuries tanking together.

is this the start of the great US market pullout?


(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:51 - ID#43185)
If not, it's a pretty good taste of things to come.

The dollar is holding up pretty well, so I imagine this is a lot of panic buying/selling. Something spooked the herd, and things got a bit overdone so I expect there will be a bit of a retrace.

The snake strikes both ways.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:51 - ID#377196)
Gold has led Silver every time up. So it will stay that way. IMHO.
Silver was the last war. Now Gold will rule over silver. Silver will rise
but gold is better. It has already said so. We watch this together.
I do own junk silver coins and a couple of silver stocks. But the
majority is in gold. This is not an inflation as much as it is a monetary
crisis. So gold will rule in a world filled with currency problems.

Clue: The CBs don't own any silver.

Thanks, GD

Cage Rattler
(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:51 - ID#33184)
S & P Futures - hourly trendline broken - selling should continue to close

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:52 - ID#431200)
Sharefin to post the url on the galaxy 5.
Goldteck since you are a member over at Kitco could you ask Sharefin to post the url on the galaxy 5. It is a very good read and does sound real.Thanks, Lutzcat

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:52 - ID#288186)
I would think that if stocks and treasuries continue to tank together for more
than a couple of days, then this would be very friendly to POG...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:55 - ID#43185)
Into the wall
This is how it starts. No apparent news and the market turns suddenly. By tomorrow the talking heads will have all kinds of reasons in their "analysis".


(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:57 - ID#43185)
Newmont fading from it's highs...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:57 - ID#333126)
the daytraders on IRC
they're getting spooked

ticks are becoming more negative. trin's going up...


and the dow and s&p just went red

obsidian - maybe your puts won't be losing you money after all ( don't tell me you already sold them... )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:57 - ID#242265)
almost back to where it started from - some rally!
XAU is retracting a bit - 77.4

(Wed Nov 04 1998 14:59 - ID#244418)
Re: Jesse Ventura, pro wrestler elected Minnesota Governor
I think in the latter days of the Roman Empire a professional gladiator became Emperor. I'm sure he was very popular.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:00 - ID#237299)
You seem to think the US Government will go gently into that long night.

Wars are waged over this wee little issue of dominion. There would be a third world war. Probably set in motion by Korea, China, Russia, or apocalyptically: "when armies are set compass around Jerusalem",- however any pretext would be enough. The yuppie generation, when faced with the real screws of an abysmal standard of living, would throw off the "save the trees" tee-shirts, and become frothing hawks.

I'm with Cherokee.

We'll see World War III before $4000/oz gold.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:00 - ID#369352)
Gold Dancer - Price of Gold
In theory, the price of gold could be much higher than the $4800/oz mentioned...right now we are thinking in single dimension, which is the value in relation to the dollar...but gold is now in 2 dimensions, its' relation to the dollar and its' relation in terms of supply...if there are truely 8000 tons of gold sold short which have to be covered and the available gold is only 1000 tons, you have one hell of a short squeeze here...and if I had enough money to corner the gold Warren Buffett, I'd be playing my trump card and making a hell of a killing in the markets! Any major purchase of gold in here would almost be guaranteed of making a bundle once the squeeze started...just a thought...but my point here is that the gold that has been sold short is paper gold and not real gold...therefore it is like inflating your currency...but once it is repaitriated, the value has to be restored, I would put that at about 100 times its' current value ultimately...but then body really knows now do they...we have never been in this situation before - ever...but we have seen tulups go from $5 to $2000 now haven't we....and we have seen go from $10 to $150 and it has no value at all...$4,700/oz gold price? Not out of the question in my book...don't you think?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:01 - ID#333126)
bonds report

who wants to call the direction for tomorrow? ( should i sell my puts or buy more? hmmmm.......... )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:02 - ID#242325)
Although big caps have lost much of their gains small caps are holding up better. As long as the small caps are outperforming corrections probably will not be serious. But once the troops start to falter, watch out below.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:03 - ID#43185)
Spooked herd
Out on the high plains the herd had been tense for the last couple of days as the low pressure cell moved in from Canada.

Then, a lighting flash And clap of thunder!

The herd took off toward the west.

Another flash!

And they came back to the east.

Not a one of them knew what they were running from or what they were running to. Just that it was time to run, and run they did, with everything they could put into each new surge.

Thunder of the heavens and thunder of the hooves.

Rolling thunder on the high plains...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:07 - ID#371229)
gollum, ravenfire, "start of the great US market pullout"? WHY NOT IT IS THE DAY AFTER ELECTIONS

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:09 - ID#237299)
My mean I might actually make a profitable trade?! I got up this morning, watched my options evaporate, and haven't checked since then.

I'm a good little soldier, I hung on. :- )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:10 - ID#257312)
Two Articles on EMU/Y2K Problems

Private sector-- government--

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:11 - ID#266105)
kairos Nov. 25th

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:16 - ID#333126)
dow testing the red mark
hmmm.... some resistance at going back into the red

Gollum - go pull those levers, willya? I don't think the traders need much more to get them scared...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:19 - ID#119358)
AllenO ( usa ) .........brilliant essay. nuff said.

crazyOtimes.........your gleeful outburst this morn....,well....sure put some spark in my step and cheer in my heart....thanks for making my dayO! we start roundin' em up and move 'em up'wards that draw.....what's comin' ain't fit for man'o'beast yessir giddyup....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:24 - ID#288466)
Looks like a key reversal day to me

Five waves up from the first of October

Doji star in the COMPX
Inverted hammer or gravestone doji in DOW, SPX, OEX

Go gold

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:24 - ID#369352)
I agree...this could be a key reversal has all the makings...a gap open to the highs with a close on the also fits in with the double top scenario...just like in the "Beans" driv'em straight down from the top...then driv'em straight up to the top again...Then slaughter'em like lambs to market!! Nice correlation, don't you think?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:25 - ID#371229)
2BRO2B? Create a stir? Take people into the unknown. oooohhh. Create
riots & wars disparage God. A book, a new thought what a threat ( :- )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:25 - ID#288252)
Bargain Coeur d'Alene stock???
Does anyone know why CDE is priced so low?

Is the silver market bad, or is there a problem with the company?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:25 - ID#333126)
now i've seen everything
former wrestler wins Minnesota election? hahahahaha...

"Ventura kicks ass!"

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:26 - ID#288466)
Those Dojis are on the DAILY chart

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:26 - ID#377196)
I agree with both of you. Good thinking on both sides!!!!

I just don't know. I can believe either. Time will tell.

Not too good to have these opinions when gold is under $300.

I mean it has to get to $400 first. Then $500. Then $600.

But if Yahoo can get to $150 and have no earnings I would guess
that the pyschology that created this just might bring gold to
such heights. We will know in due course. I wonder whether I will
still be aboard at that time? History says no. I just hope I can
get the most of the move and then preserve it.

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:27 - ID#369352)
DBOG - ref to japan treasury sales This URL will give you ample reference to japan's treasury sales as well as gold of trading to you.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:29 - ID#288466)

CDE....lotsa debt, having trouble with bringing profits to the bottom line. Real cheap, though, and has more than the share price in cash. The preferred shares might be worth a gamble for a hold.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:33 - ID#288252)
So you don't see CDE getting back to 13 anytime soon?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:33 - ID#119358)
@good news from ari-zone-a.........
if this ol' cough don't get no better, I just may have to relocate out der by scottsdale... ( hack ) ( half-hack ) say, do any of you fellers know of a Doktor Pheelgood out der? plus I think I got some of dat terminally-advanced glaucoma too. ( bump ) ( crash ) ....GO GOLDBUGS!!!....guessin' da' smokemobile now has az tag.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:33 - ID#237299)
Many here seem to think this is gentleman's poker.

The US governmant repudiated it's promises in the 30s and held an inventory party to, ahem.."reclaim" what they could no longer afford to share with the people.

Then when Britian and France tried to get their little paws on the gold, they changed the rules again.

If gold reaches those dizziying heights many salivate for, I think the day is not long following when we have another little banking holiday, complete with confiscation, blank warrants, and novel interpretations of justice.

I would like my litte mound of yellow to serve me too in the future, but I hope it not too abrupt, or it will attract unwanted rage from the monster in the castle.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:39 - ID#153120)
Minnesota's new Governor Jesse (The Body) Ventura
Jesse may have been a wrestler for years but as a citizen of Minnesota who lives very close by the city where he was major, I can say that Minnesota will do a lot better by him than it would do under under Skip Humphrey! He is for smaller government and lower taxes and hates bureaucrats, contractors who do business with government, and people who tell him how to run his life and get a government pay check for doing so.

If his administration fails it will not be due to his ideas, but rather because every big political interest in the the State of Minnesota will see him as a threat to the status quo, he must be destroyed as far as they are concerned. For him to succeed he will have to body slam into submission the lawyers and business contractors that control the media and bureauracy in Minnesota.

Jesse can do it, he has plenty of gumption, a knack for publicity, and no desire to get re-elected if that means that he will have to kiss the feet of the intrenched interest in Minnesota. He is not seeking money, he want to cut his taxes and his government, and he has been saying so for years on his talk radio show. Things should be interesting here in the upper Midwest for the next 4 years. Jesse is no fool, give him a chance, he might surprize you.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:39 - ID#254288)
Silver use in photography seen still growing

This article might have been posted here, so for those who might have missed it.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:41 - ID#227238)
This isn't our father's 30s era. Faced with the potential loss of the only store of value available, many will likely take forceful exception to the warrant. Blank or otherwise. After all, what's to lose?? Either way the end will have arrived.

But I think you're right, in that we will see some strange Mozellian forms of justice, coupled with enough spin to induce vertigo.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:42 - ID#369352)
Just looked at the 1 minute chart and IMHO this markets going down and should close negative...unless of course the PPT comes in the last 5 minutes to save face for the president....but then again...why would the president care any more...he got what he now the market can go to a** ( Clintons' ) is safe! Look for bad news's out there just waiting to show up...the news that has been suppressed in the last month...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:44 - ID#288466)

Hmmmmmmm - I dunno; it could go back to $13 - if silver goes to $7 or $8 next Spring like some of us think it will.

My thought is that there are better vehicles for the ride than CDE if that silver run happens, but I've been wrong before. One thing CDE has in its advantage ( in comparison to some of the other silver mining companies ) is liquidity.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:47 - ID#212197)
@2BR02B: I do not share your pessimism when you write:
"The first real test for the Euro comes when the conditions
in one of the member countries would suggest a different monetary
and fiscal policy than that dictated by the ECB. At that point
I would give it an F."
The 11 EURO countries have already gone through a process of adjustment in the most important key parameters like inflation rate, relation between GNP and public debt, interest rate ( France and Germany have a common discount rate of 3.3%, the others are not far away from that number, Spain has just made closer adjustments ) . I don't think there is such a thing like objective reasons to increase or decrease any of the key parameters in a single country in the opposite direction than the ECB decides it for the whole. But the advantages of having the same parameters in a huge market is outweighing possible disadvantages in one single country. These countries have grouwn together economically so closely that any company, operating in any one of these countries has to look for the bigger market. There is no such thing than national economic conditions anymore. That is dead since a long time. For companies, things become much easier.

I share Allen's views to a far extent and admire his ability to put this view into the perspective, the way he did.

What worries me is that nobody in Europe or in Germany, where I come from, seems to know into who's hands the priviledge of money creation is falling with the establishment of the new ECB. Are there private bankers behind the ECB, similar to the FED Banks in the US?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:49 - ID#369352)
If your looking for a "speculative" silver play, try Yamana Resources, Inc. ( YRI on the Toronto Exchange ) , but do your homework first, this is a real speculative play and has the potential to increase by 10 or go to take is the 10...but I'm predjudice...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:49 - ID#227238)
Hope you're right. My bro and I have a place on Lake Vermillion. Zero services but you couldn't tell that by the taxes.

Jesse spent a lot of time here in Portland doing his rasslin thing. I wish him well but knowing the mindset of too many of MN's citizens, it won't be easy. IMO.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:50 - ID#288252)

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:55 - ID#288252)
Thanks, but I already own a bunch of CDE and I'm trying to decide whether to dump it, or add to my position.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:57 - ID#288186)
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Nov. 4

Gold 836,518 + 9,559 troy ounces
Silver 74,570,600 + 28,404 troy ounces
Copper 70,325 - 178 short tons

(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:58 - ID#34459)
A command performance today,, any complaints outhere?
There was a real urgency to get in at the close.....Again, 3rd wave action.. Bode's well for the days to come.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 15:58 - ID#377196)
I agree with your last post. I think the EURO will stand for two

1. Europe will unite to fight off the US ruling the world. They
have a common enemy now and the stakes are hugh.

2. Instead of the world going to 'globalism" the world is really
going to "Regionalism". This is a step up from Nationalism
and will breed cooperation within to acheive their goals.

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:03 - ID#288186)
Cobra; And hopefully gold will keep up with the XAU...
: )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:03 - ID#237299)
The next time you see the dow start to go negative, keep mum until the close. Maybe we can trick 'em.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:04 - ID#31868)
Mr. Ventura was a Navy SEAL...I'd imagine once a Navy SEAL always a NS...he
seems to be a regular fella...Clintler on the other hand is a deserter and is not a regular fella...the fraud perpetrated in the US is that college graduates and lawyers know what is best for the country...

I'll stick with the Navy SEAL...regular fella...seeing how the college graduates and lawyers have run America and what it stands for into the ground...

nuff said...

got a clue...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:06 - ID#333126)
there were some big sell programs on the s&p today.

someone on #daytraders commented on "selling into strength"

timing? right after the bounce from the big sell off.

anybody wanna confirm this for me? ( I love hearsay )

maybe we should hang on to those puts, yes? ( unless ... ... ... the fed! it must be watching this discussion group! jeepers...hehehe )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:09 - ID#34459)
XAU leads and AU follows.......Dec AU chart set to pop, may do it in the next two days.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:10 - ID#153120)
Earl on Minnesota
I know Minnesota is very liberal, but the tool of the liberials ( government ) is one dull knife. Jesse is not a social conservative, as far as the Christian Right is concern he is not a big fan of them, as far as society is concerned he sees life pretty much like anyone from Hollywood, he is a minor movie star too. He just wants the sweet heart deals to stop. You know that we in Minneapolis spend $10,000.00 per pupil in a public school, the private schools spend $4,000.00. My brother is a teacher and every day he sits in front of $250,000.00 ( per year ) of funding for the 25 students in his class, but he can't get the needed new books for the history class he teaches. Where does the money goes to? I'll let you answer that one. Issues like these are what wind up Jesse. I hope he can deliver, but like I said every intrenched interest in the state, as I write, is planning his downfall. He might not deliver but it will be one hell of a bloody fight. Count on Minnesota being in the new for the next 4 years.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:10 - ID#288466)

I don't own CDE anymore ( I did own it once - at much higher prices ) , but if I did own it, I don't think I would sell it here near its bottom. There are lots of penny silver stocks you can pick up for next to nothing right now if you want to increase your leverage to the price of silver.

Like Yamana ( just mentioned ) these little guys can go 10 or 20 to one, or to zero - so diversify into a couple if you buy them. Some to look at are companies in the area around Hecla and Coeur d'Alene Mines, like:
Royal Silver, Independence Lead, Silver Buckle, Abot Mining, Shoshone Silver, and lots of others. Royal Silver has its own website and you can find some information on a number of the others on this website:

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:12 - ID#288186)
Cobra; Does it look like gold has formed a head & shoulders formation to
you? If so, does the right shoulder have to form for any particular
lenght of time, or can it "pop" out of formation in just a few
days? I'm still learning all this TA stuff...TIA Fox-man

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:17 - ID#34459)
Silver Plays
Many, many years and tears ago Arsarco----AR---NYSE---could be a good silver play.. They are or were a copper company but turned out mountains of silver while digging through the copper deposits.. I traded it endlessly years ago.. I don't know what they are doing of late..Lost interest when silver pooped out.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:18 - ID#266105)

Alberich-- I remain skeptical on the durability of the Euro.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:21 - ID#25171)
The EURO will have eventually the same fate as the US $. Europe is now almost entirely run by so called socio-democrats who were all communists in their youth. The level of government and local ( region, towns , government agencies ) debt is staggering. If you add that FRANCE and GERMANY have state funded retirement benefits ( vs pension funds ) the amount of hidden and declared liabilities is bigger in % of GDP than in the US.

Europe , a citizen of which I am , will be a failure.

We will witness a shift of reserves in favor of the EURO but when investors will realize that Europe is an economic failure waiting to happen they will have no alternative but to buy GOLD.

I fully expect that GOLD won't be on sale at the time by FDR type laws. So , I DIG.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:23 - ID#28767)
Nice call.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:27 - ID#34459)
FOX-MAN--Head & Shoulders
Every chart will have a high and a low point, actually they all look like head and shoulders formations....AFTER the fact, when the turn has already happened. Until you can see it in retrospect, it's hard to tell the real thing. My best indicators are these: Fibbonnaci numbers and retracements, Cycles, Anniversarys, Counting Waves..Ala Elliott. Gut instinct, having been slammed a million times in the last 35 years.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:28 - ID#254288)
McWatters (mcw @ to&mo)

This 180,000 oz. producer sells for about US $0.64 and looks interesting.

Although McWatter's q3 loss of 3 cents Canadian looks disappointing; the reasons are the improvements completed at the Sigma Mine to bring production up 43% to 1000 tonne/day from 700.

The q3 loss is not so bad when their realized gold sale price was only $291 US.
IMO an average price of $350 gold for 1999 is a good bet.

For mcw's actual cash reserves add about $5.5 million Can. to that stated in the current assets on the q3 earnings release, not to mention a possible turn around in the portfolio holdings. If Dayton Mining comes out of its morass McWatters may sell these holdings that were obtained in the Minorca merger, this to provide cash for further developement of its Canadian holdings.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:28 - ID#240248)
Does anybody know....
The cumulative GDP of the 11 members of the EU?

The cumulative debt of the 11 members of the EU?

I just fail to see how a left leaning, socialist group of countries with similar deficit spending practices and ( I'll be interested to find this one out as an exact number ) some debt are going to take over as the worlds reserve currency. It is especially interesting to hear how they are going to do this with the Chinese who are so far from a free market society that it is laughable.

The US is the worlds reserve currency for a number of reasons, one of them is our status as a superpower. Another is our unmatched ability to deploy technology to create incredible efficiencies. As regulated as we are we are unregulated compared to Europe, ever try doing business there?

Anyway, I know we are in debt. I know that it easily exceeds our GDP and the day of reckoning is coming quickly and will be hastened by Y2K. But, all of that aside, I just don't see Europe rising to lead the way.

The EU GDP and outstanding Debt numbers would say a lot about this situation.


(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:37 - ID#34459)
Outta Here
Gday Mates, gotta go
CoBra Out

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:39 - ID#288186)
Cobra; Thanks...I'm learning to use Elliott Wave analysis along with other TA.
I've always been primarily a fundamental trader, but for obvious
reasons, fundamental traders have been burned alot the past couple
of years, especially in the Metals arena. That's why I'm starting
to balance my trading techniques to include any and every type of
analysis', techniques, fundamentals, etc. I believe my best source
this past year, has been this website. I have come to believe that
all the kitcoites here are like brothers and sisters to me! We're
all here for one reason. And it unites us. GOLD! See ya, Fox-man

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:40 - ID#252150)
Shorted SPY & wanted to short AMZN but my Broker could only guarantee
the shares for 5 days. Has anyone else had a problem shorting AMZN. I realize they have a small float? Would'nt that be the ultimate pi**-off--to have to buy back the shares just before they started to plunge. I hate options, but may have to go that route. Almost shorted PDG, but managed to restrain myself.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:53 - ID#286230)
Ok so natural gas has a few chips to worry about. I'm now on to Kerosene heaters. Can't see a use for one if Y2K turns out to be the usual end of century hysteria but they seem like cheap insurance and the Montreal ice storm eventually came west last year to within 60 miles of Toronto. I can find little on the hazards of their use except to make sure there is some ventilation in the room. Virtually nothing on the web or the massive lists of web sites you have created. What's wrong with Kerosene?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:54 - ID#252150)
Allen@I think you are way off base here. You said:
"At some point the Euro will have enough support that the powers will simply cut the control lines & allow the POG in USD to take flight to the sky."

The Euro Countries are very dependant on exports, more so than the U.S.
A high POG/low USD would be devastating to their exports. IMO, they DO NOT want a strong EURO.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:57 - ID#348129)
Hey me buy GSR today also. Me thinks the lows are in........

(Wed Nov 04 1998 16:57 - ID#71231)
You need to use a lage broker
Having been burnt by a yhoo short ( knocked me out of most of my gold holdings ) , I suggest you take a put instead, or short and buy a 2 calls 5 pts out of the money and an additional put 5 pts out.

If your broker is one of the small net brokers they may not have enough clients with shares on hand. It is also one of the most shorted stocks around and short squeezes are a routine matter.

Gold Dancer
(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:04 - ID#377196)

No currency has ever lasted for ever. Except for gold. But even that is
subject to turmoil for political reasons.

But that does not mean that the EURO will not work. It will for a couple of decades because it is tied to gold. Because it is tied to gold
there will be no reason to hold the price of gold down. As gold rises
so does the underlying support for the EURO. IN no way can we run a
world economy, build the things we need to build, with a 1 to 1 ratio.

If man doe not build he goes crazy in one form or another.
Not many people on this site would like the result of a pure gold
standard. It won't wash with the vast majority of people in the world.
The value of the EURO is in putting a limitation to debt creation on
Central Bankers in relation to the price of gold. That is what the Euro
will do. That is what the US will be forced to do. Probably next year, early on.

I expect the new system to last until 2017. That is all it has to
do. Why? Because that is the last date of the Myan calender. ( If I
remember correctly ) . That is two decades. About average for currencies.

After or around 2017 we may be consumed with matters other than money.
I have no idea what those matters will be. But Jung said just before
he died that the years around 2017 would be man's final catastrophy.
We will have to wait. If Clinton stays in office forever, I expect that
date to come earlier!!! How much stock do I put in this? More than any
other pronostications, I find this to be the most compelling. That is all.
Right now I do not think about it, nor do I run my life around it.
I just see the world going in a certain direction, hell bent towards
something about which I have no idea. I stay open to anything.

Sorry for the off topic but somehow it just sort of fit into a puzzle.

GO Gold so I can at least enjoy a bunch of good years.

Thanks, GD

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:16 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.21. The 233 day moving average is 28.91

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:16 - ID#242325)
XAU volume did pick up a lot on this rally. Looks like the real thing and another run at $300 by POG soon. Will it break this formidable barrier? Wish I knew?

Glenn should be posting tonight about how he still expects $250. Unless he has lowered his target to $200.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:17 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .272. The 233 day moving average is .247

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:23 - ID#252150)
Oro@Actually my Broker is TD Webbroker,Canada's largest.
I guess the AMZN float is just too small. Sorry to here you got burnt with Yahoo. I hate short term options, but may look at LEAPS, if there are any.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:34 - ID#50148)
Selby, on hydrocarbon fuel space heaters it's
CO ( Carbon Monoxide ) poisoning. It's very subtle. The mechanism goes something like this; The CO molecules attach to the hemoglobin with gret affinity. Once bound to the hemoglobin, CO doesen't easily free itself as CO2 would, thus preventing oxygen uptake. In short, you suffocate v e r y s l o w l y al la Kevorkian. Thus, once the process has begun, it takes many hours to clear the CO from the blood. So simply walking away from the area does not immediatly solve the problem. A little oxygen can go a long way to help, but pure oxygen has its own peculiar problems. Namely, it greatly facilitates combustion and can saturate items such as clothing. But that is another story.............

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:42 - ID#50148)
I try to avoid shorts on the NASDuck. I've been there, done that. You'd be better off trying to short something like a DELL or INTC ( these are NOT recommendations! ) simply because the liquidity is there. When AMZN tanks, it'll probably lose 30 - 50 % in an hour or less. I've seen it happen many times before. The only problem is, they have to kill the shorts first. And they do.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:45 - ID#258142)
@Will - Europe GDP & debt
GDP - bit larger then USA, total debt of 11 countries in 1997 - 72,1%, target according to Maastricht treaty - 60%

(Wed Nov 04 1998 17:49 - ID#433172)
Kerosene is expensive...stinky...adds tiny carbon particles to the air you do candles and kerosene lamps

#2 diesel with a vent ..wood..

Tantalus Rex
(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:05 - ID#295111)
@ABM 05:44 post
Thx again for your reply.
Based on your most recent response, I see I'm dealing with an extremist. Your arguements were not convincing to me at all, but you made a valiant attempt. Nor were they to some of my Jewish friends who read them over. ( But I must admit, not one "COMPLETELY" disagreed with you. They just didn't like a lot of the things you said and how you said it. )

I wish I could give you another rebuttle, perhaps tomorrow. But, then, it's better we focus on Gold, so maybe not.

I have to run to University to teach a 3 hour class!!!

Adios and Shalom.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:12 - ID#350145)
Short Seller re cde and silver
all of the silver stocks are on the bottom e.g. hecla. a couple of other penny silver stocks are on the vancouver and toronto-can't vouch for them -do not know anything about them except that they moved during last years run up: united keno .24, san andreas .18, real del monte .16, and huldra.10?- hasn't traded in a while.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:14 - ID#233199)
I just destroyed all my bookmarks - how do I get Kitco frames?
What a mess!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:22 - ID#119358)
@SWP1........ salud!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:28 - ID#119358)
@cherOkee..........dayton tx. saltdome........
just curious.......because my ol' oil pard bought it from magnolia.....was it esperson dome's gas lift?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:31 - ID#210114)
The Writing is on the Wall

"In the past year ( since 11/13/97 ) , Gold has spent 68 days at or above the $US 300 level. For almost all the rest of the year, Gold has traded between $US 280-299. Given Gold's history over the previous 19 years, and given the financial upheavals of the past year, that's a remarkable record. ( From Nov. 3 )

I note that this comment was quoted on Kitco's Discussion Group yesterday ( Nov. 3 ) . The poster remarked that it's a pretty poor record too. Yes it is, but my point is that it's remarkable that the record should be so poor.

Even more remarkable when you consider that the yield on 30-year Treasuries has risen by 63 basis opints ( 0.63% ) in a month where the Dow has gained more than 1000 points and Gold has been gradually falling - in both $US and $A terms. In any previous investment era of which I am aware, this would be looked upon as a fanciful event, and by many people as a stark impossibility."

What then does that say about gold as an invenstment or safe-haven??

Not much really.

The times they are a changin'.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:34 - ID#147201)
Will, Sequin et al re Euro
You have hit the heart of this dinosaur. Not even considering Y2K, there is no group of people as large as any Europen nation that can comporehend the implications of this system. The only way this will work is by forcing it on the population and this won't be the first time that has ever happened. If this does not work and the sorry state of the dollar gets worse, what do you think will happen? Thanx for a good perspective, Charlie

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:40 - ID#233199)
@Sharefin (or whovever remembers)
Sharefin - or anybody - I lost link I can't find. It may be among your links. I want to find the company that makes generators which turn the fuel to plasma.

Can anybody remember that link.


steven ( )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:42 - ID#300202)
@Selby/Other Canucks
No Bullion delaers in Eastern Canada. Am adding to my physical collection by purchasing either 1 oz leafs or Cdn Mint oz wafers. Spoke to all major banks this area & despite being dealers-cud offer me nil advice excepting referral to their distributor in Toronto. As Atlantic Canada is subject to a 15% Harmonized sales Tax-combined 7% Fed Tax + Prov Sales tax-the Toronto Dist. wud ship it to Atlantic Canada & add only 7%, however upon my pick up at local bank, I get dinged the additional amount. USA source of origin wud be no good as Revenue Canada/Canada Customs also add the 15%. A number of retail organizations still ship "out of province" & only charge 7% Goods & Services Tax leaving it to the customer on his honor to remit the remaining monies. HELP-anyone know of any Toronto area bullion dealers who wud forward to me direct. My reasoning for selecting leafs/ one oz wafers is their liquidity at our local banks. At one time they readily accepted Mexican 50 Pesos/Krugs/Eagles etc, but unsure now. Used to be able to purchase from Englehard & later re-sell to bank. Can't even find out if Englehard still exists in Canada. TIA

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:43 - ID#266105)

And gold trades in this low range despite a 39.6% rise
in the CPI over the past ten years, or said conversely, a
further 40% devaluation of the dollar.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:49 - ID#31868)
SWP1, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...this may help ya...I will check a few more...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:49 - ID#147201)
JTF re Clinton
He's got to go or we are sunk- Titanic. I think the facts will come out. It's like combat- if the head man goes down, another takes his place.* It is a historical fact that a lie can only go so far. It is a self destructing mechanism. Even clinton can't keep it up.
* In American military.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:50 - ID#348257)
The Body
Earlier in the day I had some fun with Jesse Ventura's winning the Minnesota Governorship. But in all fairness, this man represents what all "politicians" should really be - citizens from all walks of life taking their turn representing the people from which they have come. This applies as much to Donald Trump, Love boat's "Gopher" Ted Grandy, and an erstwhile Hollywood actor named Ronald Reagan. Do we have a candidate from Kitco? Can we second a motion here? I nominate, from the great website of Kitco, the honorable....

fill in the blank gang...fill in the blank.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:51 - ID#210114)
Mid term elections
Democrats win seats, win Governership of Califronia, D'Amato looses.

A splendid result!!

Clinton rules!!

May all the conservatives at Kitco weep.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:51 - ID#373403)
XAU up 8%
FDPMX up 2.3%


(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:53 - ID#344326)
@ still hung over.....
I get tanked and the POG soars. I should have thought of this long ago. My lecture went great.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:55 - ID#210114)
More good news......

Blues forecast for gold


GOLD could fall to as low as $US200 an ounce as the world enters the final stage of a non-inflationary environment, International Bank Credit Analyst managing editor Stephen Poloz said yesterday.

With inflation likely to decline in the next six to 12 months, the implication was on the downside for gold, he told the Australian Resources Conference.

Mr Poloz said the prospect of major economies facing deflation, combined with upheaval in the world financial system, could boost gold prices in the near term.

"However, if the final result is a continued downtrend in average inflation to around zero, and the US dollar remains relatively strong, then gold prices could fall to $US200," he said.

The gold price is hovering around $US290 an ounce.

Mr Poloz said the deflationary environment had also pushed commodity prices to recessionary levels but the trough would not be broken until world economic growth reached a bottom, which was unlikely "until late 1999 and possibly later".

The only benefit for miners was that, with commodity prices remaining under pressure, the currencies of commodity exporters like Australia and Canada would probably remain under pressure.

The negative focus on commodity exporters could also mean the local stock market would underperform other markets.

Mr Poloz said that once a cyclical turnaround emerged and commodity prices began to recover, the stocks and currencies of countries like Australia and Canada would outperform global markets.

However, even this bit of good news could be short-lived because an analysis of longer term trends indicates the period of outperformance might be brief, Mr Poloz said.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:56 - ID#147201)
Gollum spooked herd
I haven't been on the high plains long enough to observe this, but I bet if there was an earthquake, you would see something similar. Are you out there all the time? Thanx for a natural event, Charlie

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 18:58 - ID#348257)
Klinton is pure Gold
Bill Clinton should warm the cockles of any goldbug's heart. The very fact that he is not only tolerated, but VENERATED by so many voters indicates that the rapid unwinding of Western Civilization is right on track. This means that the current financial and monetary crises the world over will foster stimulative fiscal and monetary policies. Kitco logic is one thing. But the "wisdom of the world" is quite another. The tried and true errors of the past will overtake the increasingly inferior world leadership we have been experiencing. When Alan Greenspan is gone, the sh*t will be quite free to hit the fan.

This is very good for gold.

Too bad for our kids ands grandkids. Almost makes me very happy my kid is living in China.

Mike Sheller
(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:00 - ID#348257)
Glad your lecture went well. Have one on me!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:04 - ID#206235)
@ *F
*F.... you said

"Date: Wed Nov 04 1998 01:57
farfel ( @ERLE...yes, you've hit the nail on the head... ) ID#339265:
Realistic ( aka LGBUGAL ) is one of those guys who chased kids like myself down the hill after school and pelted us with snowballs. However, there is a day soon to arrive when he will be very surprised to discover an ambush awaits him...and those ice-packed snowballs hurt like hell when they cut through the flesh."

Actually *F, I was the kind of kid who was taught that the best way to deal with Bully's like yourself, was to smack them straight in the nose every time they try and shove me or steal my lunch. Now *F, let's just get a couple things straight that you seem very confused about.

1 ) I'm not now, nor have I ever been Mr. Realistic. He's a lot more polite than I am...and never lowers himself to responding to inanity. Perhaps I should learn from his example.

2 ) For reasons known only to seem to believe that anyone who doesn't buy into your "Gold is god/new paradigm/short sqeeze limit up"

a ) Hostile to precious metals
b ) A mortal enemy to all Goldbugs
c ) Part of a vast conspiracy

Now *F... I told you before. You'd make an excellent propaganist since that is what you most believe in. I realize you hate the free exchange of ideas when it includes all views. Particularly re Gold. If you'd lived during WW2, you could have replaced Herr Goebells easily as the best dessiminator of media control ideology.

I also realize that it frustrates you greatly, that folks around here can think for themselves, and are allowed to speak out on all sides of any issue, Gold related and otherwise.

Now why don't you take a previous suggestion to heart, and run along to the USAGold website, where propagandizing and cheerleading, is much more highly prized than objective balanced analysis of the metals? I'm sure that you could find a little following of appreciative non thinkers there.

Here at Kitco however, you'll just have to accept the fact that SOME of us who are interested investors in precious metals, ( and OTHER markets ) have ideas, goals, strategies, and analysis, which differ from your own. This does not make us mortal enemies of Gold. Nor of Goldbugs. To think we are mortal enemies of same, takes a certain high level of psychotic paranoia.

Personally, I find Realistic's retrospectives more enlightening than the constant stream of bogus cheerleading nonsense..... at least his posts are useful for something.

Oh yes..."Short squeeze / limit up" *F



(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:05 - ID#344326)
Commentary from Bill Murphy of "Le Metropole Cafe"
The Gold Market and Precious Metals Commentary

November 4, 1998 - Spot Gold $290.70 up $2.10 - Spot Silver $4.94 up 2 cents

Technicals -

What a difference a day makes! It is been our long standing opinion that gold is making a monster technical base that will support a giant move to the upside - up to the $400 area within the next ten to twelve months. It is critical that for the base to stay intact, that the $290 area hold. To build a skyscraper, we need a very strong foundation. That base was threatened yesterday with Dec. closing at $289.70. We remarked to each other that the XAU was refusing to follow the price of gold down and that should be telling us something. Today, gold charged back to close a couple of dollars higher and away from technical danger. When a market dinks below a certain well known support point, and then roars back, you usually have a very bullish technical signal.

The gold market bent and then bent some more. But did not break. The next commitment of traders report should show a vastly improved technical make up of the market with a good number of computer longs shaken out by the price setback and replaced on the long side by a much bigger percentage of commercials. Yesterday, the open interest dropped 4,634 contracts and now stands at 180,415. That was spec puking and commercial buying.

Russia dumped some silver and the silver market was briefly trashed, but is bouncing right back. Silver has a very strong tendency to fill gaps and did so again on this recent break. Coincidentally, silver tanked on the biggest Comex stock increase since mid-July as there were over 1 million ounces put into the approved warehouses. A bear maneuver that we do not think will work. Over the past year the Comex stockpiles have declined about 32%, and with reflation on the horizon, those stocks should dwindle further. They now stand at 74,570,600 oz. The big silver move to the upside is still ahead of us.

Fundamentals -

Fleming Global Mining Group reported that projected gold supply in the mines should be 2,523 tonnes in 1998, up from 2,458 tonnes in 1997. This is a useful stat to know when you hear that a hedge fund is short 200 tonnes of gold or that the total gold loans outstanding may be as much as 7 to 8 thousand tonnes.

From Jeffrey Christian, President of CPM, a precious metals consulting group- " Low investment demand, high levels of central bank sales, and persistent short selling by traders at banks, brokerage houses and commodity trading funds have all served to depress gold prices over the past years. All of these factors are expected to reverse field in late 1998 or 1999, paying the way for gold prices to move higher".

The Christian statement along with the Reuters comment by Merrill Lynch's Bill O'Neill ," the metal repeatedly failed to maintain rallies under pressure from a consistent pattern of producer selling along with central bank sales," may be enlightening. For some time now our camp has said that undisclosed central bank sales has been depressing the price of gold. Previously, CPM and Merrill Lynch were not inclined to agree with us. Now, it appears they do. This is heartening because this depressant should decline significantly in the many months to come. The sledge hammer that has knocked down every gold rally during the past two years will not be strong enough to deliver the knock down punches of the past.

Right after yesterday's close, the price of gold popped up 50 cents in Australia. May not sound like much, but it is unusual. There are two explanations. Both good for us bulls.

The first is that the bears really tried to bash gold down all day and could not do so. Upon discovering considerable buying support right below the $290 area, they gave up the ghost and decided to cover after the close.

The second explanation is that some Australian producers ( the world's third largest gold miners ) are covering some of their forward short positions and had more gold to buy after our close. In Aussie dollar terms the price of gold has dropped- from $504 to about $462 or about 10%. In the land down under, this represents the lowest gold price since April 3, 1998. The recovery of the Australian dollar is a large component of the move as it has moved back to about 63 versus the dollar.

Canada announced it sold 68,000 ounces of gold in October. They only have 2.5 million ounces left. One cannot help note the sorry plight of the Canadian dollar. Perhaps, their gold sale policy was not a good one.

In our last Midas, John Brimelow put out a platinum buy alert and gave his reasons why . While silver and gold have struggled since then, the price of platinum has been moving higher as John thought it would. Today, it broke a downtrend started in July, closing at $346.60. We have been alerting you to the strong Japanese precious metal demand that has surfaced. Today, Reuters ( Nov. 4 ) reported - "Retail sales of platinum bars in October soared 241 percent month-on-month and 587 percent year-on-year," trade house Tanaka Kikinzoku Kogyo said. Gold demand is also very firm. Premiums are high ( $1.20 to $1.30 over the loco London market ) and Tanaka's gold bar sales in October were triple that of September.

We consider this Asian demand info to be important. Asia is the demand engine for gold. This demand was decimated by that region's economic crises. Gold proved to be a safe haven for many during that crises and it played out its historical role well. The other safe haven during their crises, for many, was the dollar ( investments ) . With the formation of the Euro, and an Asian banking institution ( with the yen as the reserve currency ) looming on the horizon, the dollar's luster is waning. That will leave the ownership of gold at the top of heap around the world for economic insurance purposes.

Potpourri and the Gold Shares -

The XAU closed at 79.18 up a whopping 6.08. It continues to be strong as a rock and has refused to falter with the retreat in the price of gold. We continue to maintain that the so called smart money is buying up the seniors and this portends well for the future price of gold. It makes so much sense.

We reiterate from previous commentary: The pre EMU official gold sales are over, or ending, the gold lending game will most likely slow in the future, Asian demand is strengthening, and the new news -our incumbent politicians have been re-elected ( 98% of them ) .

We look for the Rubin types to step down now in the months to come ( the stock market is firm and Clinton now seems safe after our election results, so those ( Rubin ) that wish to leave, can do so with their heads high ) . And, if we are correct, that the gold price was held down by some of the "official sector people ", then the gold price should rise, and rise sharply, as the orchestrators of that policy ( and their influence ) begin to exit from the public sector. One might say "the force" ( confluence of forces ) is with us.

Add one more force to the confluence - money supply growth. From the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis: The M2 growth of 5 to 7 percent that has been seen in recent years, along with an upward shift in M2 volatility, could begin affect the inflation trend in the U.S. and could " accelerate it by 1 to 3 percentage points or more". Maybe that is why the bond market is swooning. Yields hit 5.33 today. They are leaping up.

Two possibly related tidbits: The G-7 announced it was going to discuss the hedge fund situation. Who knows what could possibly come out of that. We suggest one thing will be the subtle curtailment of excessive gold loans - the ticking time bomb. We already told you Merrill has pulled out of the commodity derivative game. And boy are they sensitive about something. The Comex is launching some new commodity product and the official response to the Comex by Merrill was caustic and negative, because the new product was commodity related and Merrill wanted nothing to do with it. Very un Merrill like.

Here is a good one to know. The NYSE specialists are the most short the stock market that they have been since the 1987 crash.

We would like to welcome The Tocqueville Gold Fund as our newest Le Metropole member. Like us, they are new kids on the block and we both have French names. The fund was launched this past July 1st and is the first gold fund start up in four years, the last one being Gabelli's. Tocqueville itself manages $900 million, mainly for high net worth individuals, and started the gold fund because of concern over the general market outlook. They seeded the fund with $5 million, raised another 3, and turned out a 9.9% return during the third quarter.

I spoke with senior portfolio manager, John Hathaway. He believes that gold has bottomed out after a 19 year bear market and that is why they started up the fund. In other words, they have set up the fund from strength and out of a belief that some very good times ( profitable ones ) are ahead for us gold family people. We agree with John and think his timing is impeccable. We will be following his fund very closely and alerting fellow members to their progress. There may be members in the Caf, now and to come, that would like a professional in the fund industry to manage all, or part of their, gold share investments. We give our salute to Tocqueville.

From a philosophy standpoint their mandate is to own gold shares with a provision to hold up to 10% of their assets in bullion or other precious metals. So far, they have stuck with companies with good balance sheets, that generate cash at $300 gold, and that have acceptable hedge books ( the preference being the smaller, the better ) . Their five largest holdings, in descending order, as of 9/30/98 were Anglogold, Getchell Gold, Homestake, Ashanti, and Greenstone Resources.

To reach Tocqueville Funds call 800- 697 - 3863. Their website address is

One more Golden Star Resources ( 1 1/2 ) comment, because so many of you own it and requested some more feedback. CEO Dave Fennell and the Board disagreed on how to proceed. Dave was bullish, the board cautious. The board won. Their was a very strong bidder for the shares yesterday on the predictable sell off after the news about Fennell. We suggest that GSR will be taken over for their considerable assets by a big mining firm in the next few months, which should mean a very good pop in the stock ahead of us, on that basis alone. We are hanging tough and doing so with an even greater deal of confidence in the future of the stock price.

Voyeur Professor
(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:06 - ID#231112)
Spock: Gold's Paradox II

Like you, I have become gunshy, too much ordinance has fallen around my foxhole in the past year. So I continue to have a shellshocked mentality. More specifically, I am heartened by the spike today in the XAU, even bullion rallied. But are we in for a typical bear trap tomorrow? I hope not. Ironically, the bounce raises several questions. Chiefly: why hasn't the declining dollar proved bullish for gold in the past month, and why now, when the dollar has firmed do we get some life in the gold market? If a sell-off occurs tomorrow, we will witness the same sort of tantalizing and perverse illogic that has characterized this market. Many here have argued that gold investing lacks logic and represents a manipulation of powerful monetary gurus. If so, none of us should offer advice or comment. We should invest after consulting soothsayers, the inner organs of beasts, and the purchase of a dart-board. Gold still has an enormous wall of worry to climb and we are hardly witnessing a major turn of events. But I'll yield to those of you who see hope in today's turn of events.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:07 - ID#432130)
SWP1...a link...
This link might help you: Note, there is NO "http//www." in this address. It is exactly this: "m/scie-en.html" . I think it can help you. : )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:07 - ID#206235)
@ RJ... Platinum article today... WSJ
Wall street journal had an article today on the increasing use of Platinum in jewelry and how there is a more effective marketing campaign for this, than in the past. Quite interesting.

It even discussed which celebrities have taken to wearing strictly ( or mostly ) Platinum. Claudia Schiffer for example. ( Ahhh to be a Platinum waist chain on her for a day.... )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:08 - ID#237299)
Hey Caper:
Did it ever cross your mind to call our sponsor??? I'm sure Bart could supply you with gold.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:10 - ID#432130)
SWP1..Oooops, Sorry...
The link dont work : (

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:13 - ID#257312)
Mike Sheller--Nominations

tolerant1 for head of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:13 - ID#432130)
SWP1, Here it is. Really :)
Search Sciences - Energy:

Mr. Mick
(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:14 - ID#345321)
TOLLY FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!..................
Now THERE is a man that tells it like it is - yes???

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:19 - ID#300202)
Same was considered-mentioned Mounties to the banks today-what's dat???
Need quick liquidy. Wud go that route if they wud accept. In the 70's wud not have been a prob. Hell even in Nfld in early 70's-banks in little fishing villages were very familiar with all aspects of retailing gold-now they don't even know what it looks like.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:19 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...the Republicans control both houses, the senior and
sub-committees and they have a majority of Governors...Clintler is still a liar, a deserter, and went out of his way to prevaricate the truth under oath...oh yeah...and he is a grade A hypocrite in that people in the armed forces have been thrown out for committing adultery...while a
women outside of his marriage who performed fellatio on him which was not sex...allows him to stay in office...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:23 - ID#31868)
Auric, Mr. Mick, Namaste' gulp and a puff...good grief...if anything I would like to be
the Ambassador to Mexico...heh...heh...heh...O...yeah...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:27 - ID#210114)
Voyeur Professor
There is no logic to the gold market.

For months, when the Yen went down gold went down. We were told that the Yen was an indicator of gold demand in Asia. So when the Yen goes through the roof did gold follow?


When a CB announces a gold sales, the price falls; sometimes dramatically. So when the Polish central Bank announced a purchase of 75 tonnes did the price go up?


In the last 18 months we've had the worst financial crisis since WW2. We've had military confrontation in Iraq and Somalia. We've had the possibility of a President's impeachment. What has gold done?

Far from being a safe-haven it has gone down the toilet along with everything else.

Unitl the CB's decide one way or another as to the future of gold as a monetary assett, the uncertainty will continue and POG will be weak.

Don't hold your breath goldbugs.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:30 - ID#233199)
@gwys,, et al...
Thanks I'll be keeping that link but so far I havn't been able to find those "plamatizing" generators

anybody else remember the link to the company that make elctrical generators that do well on multi fuels and supposedly turn the furel to plasma before injection?

Thanks all ( somebody must remember )

....steven ( )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:31 - ID#233199)
Bummer eh?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:32 - ID#210114)
I've been hearing stuff like this for the last 18 months.

"What a difference a day makes! It is been our long standing opinion that gold is making a
monster technical base that will support a giant move to the upside - up to the $400 area
within the next ten to twelve months. It is critical that for the base to stay intact, that the $290
area hold. To build a skyscraper, we need a very strong foundation."

Base for monster rally..... Right.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:48 - ID#220325)
Sharefin thanks for the monster site (11:28)
I think I will throw away the rest of my bookmarks now.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 19:48 - ID#257312)

I take it you didn't vote for Gold to be at $30,000 by Dec. 1999, in Nick @ C's survey : )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:00 - ID#210114)
You're perception is accurate and humourous.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:01 - ID#210114)
Beaming Up Now......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:04 - ID#432130)
...there is no logic to either the gold market or the "stock" market. Ofcousre not, because they are both manipulated. It is all coming to a close soon enough. This Fiat system is on its way to failing for the same reasons as every other Fiat system in history has failed; greed and corruption.

Gold will be quite valuable, soon enough.

Go gold, ( dont go Bearx )

Live long and prosper...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:06 - ID#259260)
GOLD coin scam alert..... "Y2K special"
For any potential new Gold buyers / lurkers out there who may fall for any of these schemes we see in the WSJ and elsewhere. Saw a big ad today that said;

"Y2K Special.... 1/2 Oz. golden eagles $289.00 each"

Mind you that's a HALF ounce of common bullion Gold!

For One ounce coins they didn't list a price but said to call for quote. If They're charging $289 for the Half Oz..., I hate to think what the 1 Oz. might be going for! Let's just say it's a company with the name "Eastern" and "Numismatics" in it's title.

Then there are the apparent "loss leader" ads that try and entice you with specials like an introductory One Oz. golden eagle at $305.00.... and then when you read the fine print they want $10.00 to $20.00 for shipping and handling.


You want Gold coins? Call Kitco. Call Monex. Call Robnoel. Call your local coin and bullion dealer if you live near a large city. But whatever you do, if you're new to Gold......don't fall for the scams!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:07 - ID#288232)


i worked at esperson dome during 89-91 for mobil....
we hit a well called the hanna nash play just
south of esperson produced 50+MMSCFD
and 5kBBL of condensate per hell of a
well to say the least....the reservoir engineer
flowed it as hard as he could and it lasted only
18 months.....ftp of ate stainless steel
chokes like candy..and would make the hair stand
on end when brought on line....
.....the gas produced at esperson dome was re-injected to lift the oil
to the surface---gas lift---we also had a pilot O2
injection program which produced sour gas and extreme
hazards for the operators..massive polluters of the environment
regardless of what is portrayed on tv.......esperson dome had
more brine pumped into the bar ditches than what was re-injected
into the wells.....rotten flow lines with leaks on a daily basis....
.......superior oil first.... then bought by sorry ass mobil....
argi-nellie....suckers made me trade my superior stock for
14% debentures that could be called anytime....they called them
in short order...fired most of the superior execs.....sold most
of their domestic fields....and went to russia in a big way...
i wait for nationalization of their investments when russia
returns to it should be....


(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:09 - ID#259260)
Auric...Gold Price poll
No I looked up the tally and there was only ONE vote for Gold to be 30,000 by 11/6....some *F guy. The other 665 votes fell within more "realistic" parameters.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:12 - ID#34883)
Re:Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:16 - ID#259260)
Y2K...New reporting rules for State and Local Govt agencies
New rules were passed this week by U.S. accounting rule makers which require State and Local municipalities to disclose their Y2K compliance efforts, cost, plan, etc. in their annual financial statements. This is similar to the SEC rules already passed which require publicly owned U.S. complanies to disclose these details in their Quarterly or annual reports.

Interestingly, California has already dosclosed that the anticipated cost of Y2K compliance fix, will cost a total of $250 million. This is an extremely small number when we consider the size of California's budget....which allocates 9 BILLION annually in benefits for illegal aliens alone....!!!!

Maybe this Y2K thing won't be quite as expensive a chore as we keep hearing it will.... or maybe California Govt, will close down on 1/1/2000...this would NOT be such a bad thing considering who we just elected Governer and Senator.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:25 - ID#218379)
Value Line Stoc,k Index --- 62% Retracement
The Value Line Stock Index has now retraced 62% of its decline from
its April high to its October low.

This stock index is more representative of the U.S. stock market
than is the Dow or S&P in my view. It is not weighted as are most
other stock indicies.

62% ( 61.8 ) has Fibonacci significance as many of you are aware.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:25 - ID#222107)
BUGal - Do you have a web site
Or a web address that provides details of these accounting changes? Thanks.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:26 - ID#386245)
Don't you mean:

Tolerant 1 for Head of Gulps,Puffs and Bangs??

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:29 - ID#341227)
@LGBULLYGALISTIC...Worth a Repost...
If the following post does not constitute hatred for goldbugs in general, then I do not understand the definition of hate.
Date: Mon Oct 26 1998 12:48
LGB ( @ Ran...the 29 crash ) ID#269409:
Copyright  1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Ran, watch it now're on a forum that is almost exclusively populated by Mr. Potter's with VERY few George Bailey's!...remember, George was the one who believed in extended credit to his worthy fellow man in the belief that this would allow said fellow man to prosper, create economic growth, and thus help lead the community/country out of the crises! This is the virtual antithesis of everything the true diehard GoldBug believes!

Hey,'s that Sunshine Silver ( SSC ) doing, HiHoSilver? Tell me more about the merits of silver over gold.....ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.



P.S. Any one of the posters at USA gold has far greater education than you will ever hope to have. Where did you go to college again? I'm trying to remember....was it Pepperdine or Smith? Why don't you take YOUR highly "enlightened," ill-educated posts to the Aryan Supremacy internet group. If you continue to imagine me as some Nazi propagandist ( a la Goebbels ) , then at the very least, you are the sadistic Nazi human vivisectionist, Dr. Mengele, of this were probably the type of kid that would catch cats and set them on fire.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:30 - ID#304282)
I tried to access the site where the man claims to have detected a radio signal at 1450 Mhz at Eq Pegasi. All I got was a black screen with a
National Security Agency logo on it. The site was full of info a couple of days ago. Does anyone know what happened?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:42 - ID#286230)
George Panda
Is there no way around the problem of producing heat during an electric shut down.

I know that lamp oil reduces both the smell of Kerosene and the carbon and that a battery operated CO detector is needed. When the alternative is freezing in the dark.......

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:42 - ID#341227)
@LGBULLYGALISTIC...oh, I'm sorry...
I just majored in Surfing at San Diego State.

Sorry for my earlier confusion.



(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:43 - ID#119358)
@cherOkee......when Bledsoe bought the dome from.........
mobil, I split ( I was the "finance partner" ) ......took permian, ok., so. new mex. wells....he took la., east tex. and san juan basin. The environmental of the dome...arg...bad enough to scare Chubb. He's still findin' T/A holes down there that aren't on da' maps. BTW, he took it off the lift and sold the gas....made a bunch'o'kash. I'm still glad my numero ain't on it. si. B.L.B. ( hl hunt's best man ) is one brave sumabitch and one helluva' guy. salud to ya!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:49 - ID#31868)
tricky, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...the following two links may be what you are
looking took me a while to remember where I saw them...hope they help you find what you are looking for...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:53 - ID#31868)
Selby, Namaste' gulp and a puff to an emergency the following would be very
valuable...they are SAFE for indoor use...with minimal ventilation... give them a call and ask...they are very pleasant people and will take the time to answer your questions...

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:54 - ID#290456)
tricky @ ET phone home
Turns out that the whole thing, even the NSA logo on the web site, is a hacker hoax. They even stole the engineer's name, who no longer works for the site that claimed the find.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:58 - ID#432298)
I agree on your post regarding the POG declining when the Yen was declining, yet when the Yen rises, the POG hardly moves. Also, I agree that before the POG will move upward and break out over $300/oz with some conviction, the Central Banks have to come to some decision on the backing of Gold in their reserves. Time will tell........

Charles Keeling
(Wed Nov 04 1998 20:58 - ID#344225)
@ Selby RE: Emergency Heat Prouction
I was in Dayton Ohio during the energy crisis.

The Hotel had no heat at all, and a blizzard was
blowing out of the North. My room was on the
North side. The sliding glass doors of this
downtown Holiday Inn were not storm doors, & the
ice & snow was coming into the room.

I discovered then ( with the help of a cute little
blonde ) that one could survive easily on body heat.

Actually, after a half hour even sheets were an
unnecessary item.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:03 - ID#259260)
@ *Fspot...Uh oh...repost time!
Actually Fword, far from having a "hatred" of GoldBugs I appreciate many of the fine minds who post here...that's the very reason I read this site. I don't confuse intellectual exchange with rabid, extremist, psychotic emotion. You must be confusing me with the person who wrote the following;

"...when you come on this forum and declare that these metals are effectively worthless...or headed to the dustbin of history...then you might as well be a rapist who breaks into my home. I will shoot you...I will kill you...I will rip off your ears and gleefully watch you bleed to death on my floor. ( Now we finally see the true nature of the gentlemanly F* person ...and how open and objective a guy he is when it comes to Gold analysis....yes we can assess the worth of all his words in this very telling context )

F* "

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:05 - ID#257312)
Nick @ Bureau of GP&B

Interesting bit of info the other night from Fred @ Vienna re the Weiner/Frankfurter term. Didn't know the Australians were the originators of what we in the States call hot dogs: )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:05 - ID#434256)
Enjoy the dance?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:06 - ID#259260)
Gold propaganda...Is it an effective influence?
I think not.

Thinking folks don't take Spinmeister's seriously...whether they be ceaseless Clinton apologists...ceaseless GOLD cheerleaders...or even ceaseless DOW cheerleaders. The scary thing is that so many people DO take propagandists seriously. One could do a sociological study as to where such mindsets have led us in the past, this century.

I feel badly for Farful..he seems to think that the One note DOW cheerleaders are respected members of the financial community to be emulated...but in the opposing extreme. Apparently he doesn't get out much and read what the REAL market analyst's have to say.

As to Gold, I love the feel of a Nice St Gaudens or American Eagle... the look, the beauty, the history, the very essence of intrinsic value...... and I think their day hasn't quite come yet, yes?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:11 - ID#434256)
SOME banks did well

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:14 - ID#288232)


get off of it......brinkmanship without resolution
is've both brinked...
you both 'might' be men.......and you both are full
of sh!t on these points.........i will CHOP-ASAKI
the fonk out of you both if this persists..........

'get over it'.........the eagles.....get over it.


(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:14 - ID#423380)

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:15 - ID#119358)
@LGB.O......"I've just begun to drool"..............

you say tomato...I say propagandO....yes, the golden medium is the message...we must allow it to do all the talkin! salud!!!! G&P.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:16 - ID#259260)
@ F.... Reposts eh?
Hmmm, hate speech, proagandizing, et al. Guess naybe I should repost the entire thing instead of just a tidbit. ( Apologies to forum for wasted bandwidth...we keep trying to ask nice with Fboy...but he just doesn't "get it" )

Following are the fair, balanced, gentlemanly, open minded, and objective comments of the omnipotent Gold analysts, F* Word. I say F* word, because so many of his posts were signed "F* the Unpronounceable" ...thus I want to give him the reverence he so desires when he takes on the self appointed mantle of having an unpronounceable name...something only God had previously laid claim

Comments in parenthesis, are, unfortunately, the work of my own hand...LGB. All other comments are those of the F* word fellow

Date: Fri Apr 17 1998 00:03
farfel ( it a glee club for gold? ) ID#340302:
Copyright ( c ) 1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

A certain poster

( Hmmmm, I thought this guy F* word claims he always calls other posters by their Kitco name out of respect? ) ..recently disparaged this forum as evolving into nothing more than a glee club for gold. The central is imperative to hear the opposing point of view, i.e., the derogatory perspective of gold's value, in order to achieve balance and proper perspective.

( Hmmm, I disagree with the characterization here, the FACTUAL perspective would be a lot more accurate. The actual history of performance, current prospects for future performance. As a GoldBug, AND a believer in the achievements of the age, I can't imagine having an "Anti" Gold view any more than an "Anti" U.S. economy view )

Personally, I do not believe that Kitco's strong bias in favor of gold or silver is a a bad thing.

( Any strong bias will prevent good judgment, not only in matters Gold investment related, but in ALL areas of life )

.....Why? Because today, we live in a world in which gold is disparaged routinely in virtually all mainstream media...or it is ignored completely.

( I see, if phony propagandizing and bias exists in the mainstream media, then the proper response is to eliminate truth, objectivity, and honest evaluation in other forums... )

What is so wrong about the tendentious nature of this forum then? Why is it perfectly acceptable for a media outlet such as CNBC to blast its frequent, total, chauvinistic support of the supremacy of equities and bonds and the irrelevance of gold in a modern economy ...yet somehow various Kitcoites feel it is imperative for this forum to present a fair balance between goldbugs and their pro-equities/anti-gold poster antagonists...and the
very same Kitcoites become oh-so indignant if they perceive the argumentation is balancing too far in favor of gold??

( Obviously this guy doesn't read major "peer" stock forums such as the "SI" thread, where bearish, objective, and balanced sentiments abound in huge measure, pro, con, in between )

What is wrong with having another strong mouthpiece for gold such as the Kitco Forum in this "paper-pyramid-economy-is-OK-by-me" world? God only knows the World Gold Council is doing a miserable job of propagandizing.

( Glad the F* fellow realizes EXACTLY what it is he's trying to push here..."propagandizing" )

So, what crime exists in allowing a preponderance of goldbug intellectuals
to present their views over a non-mainstream internet site such as this and offer some token resistance to the mountain of anti-gold nonsense out there?

( Perhaps the crime that exists in such a that some of us still have a love for truth, honesty, facts, and reality in making a judgment as to both sides of any it economic, Gold related, political, spiritual, socio-economic......I know, we're stupid ideologues and all for holding this view...yet it persists...... )

Balance...schmalance. ( F* word... this should be your mantra for ALL time )

I welcome anti-gold exponents to post on this forum...I beg them to do so. ( Uh huh ) However, be warned...there are those here ( myself included ) who will dispute your anti-gold logic until it crumbles into the nonsensical gibberish it really is.

( Funny that those who look at both the up AND down side of Gold are called "anti"....where have we seen this kind of thinking before? Where's my "hate speech" manual at? )

If that should happen and you run away, "crying to mama," then do not blame us!! Furthermore, let no other Kitcoites scold those of us who "take no prisoners" in such argumentation either. The pro-gold/anti-gold schism is not a mere is nothing less than a cultural war. Despite the ostensible appearance of pandemic. ( You sure you know what this means Fboy? )

prosperity, this country is at war with itself. Anyone who would deny this is viewing the world through blinders.

( This guy have a messianic leader complex or what? Gold is beautiful and has some noble metallurgical properties, and a rich history of societal valuation....but it's not exactly the spiritual be all and end all of the Universe... )

There are many in this world and on this forum who have built their houses upon foundations of gold and silver...who clothe their families out of the fabrics of gold and silver...who feed their families from plates of gold and

( not in the last 2 decades they haven't..... )

...when you come on this forum and declare that these metals are effectively worthless...or headed to the dustbin of history...then you might as well be a rapist who breaks into my home. I will shoot you...I will kill you...I will rip off your ears and gleefully watch you bleed to death on my floor.

( Now we finally see the true nature of the gentlemanly F* person ...and how open and objective a guy he is when it comes to Gold analysis....yes we can assess the worth of all his words in this very telling context )



( Final LGB the words Orwell, fascist, fanatic, free speech, objectivity, balance, propaganda ,or frightening have any meaning in this man's vast vocabulary? )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:19 - ID#259260)
@ StudioR
Gasp.... that is my all time favorite..the high relief 1907 Saint. Tyhe mother of all coins.....Gold or otherwise.....The one coin I'd love to own above all others...maybe someday when Loral stock get's high enough....... ( hehehe )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:19 - ID#410194)
Educational reality check!
Price of Gold on April 17th: 315 ( before plummeting to as low as 272 in August )
Price of Gold today: 291

Date: Fri Apr 17 1998 16:45
farfel ( F*'s Evaluation of the GOLD market... ) ID#340302:

If you did not get on board the gold bull train today...or if ( heaven forbid ) you did not eliminate your shorts, then all I can say is my heart goes out to you...NOT. You will "enjoy" the next week immensely.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:21 - ID#259260)
@ CHerokee
I'm definitely not spoilin for a foodfight CHerokee...I left Fboy alone the other day when he posted his extremely noxoius diatribe at me after he managed to totally disrupt the forum..something he does better than anyone.

But I'm getting a little weary of tolerating him if you know what I mean.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:23 - ID#386245)
Aussies may have invented wieners, but you've turned it into an art form and have got the biggest weenie running your country.
Aussie gold shares up 2.8% at 1.20 pm.
Here's to the Bureau of Gulps, Puffs and Bangs. T1 will make a nice change from Janet. At least gold bugs won't get burned out of their houses!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:24 - ID#252150)
F*@For sheer vitriol & hatred--no one can touch you.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:25 - ID#434256)
Close, but still no cigar

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:28 - ID#119358)
@LGB.O y Farfel.O.............
What in the hell are you two fellers goin' to tell us about the other one that we don't already know?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:30 - ID#434256)
Year of the Rat

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:33 - ID#240248)
RE: Chas Sorry state of the Dollar
My own humble opinion is this. You probably know from my previous posts that I put a lot of stock in Harry Dent and his association of "Births lagged for Peak Family Spending". I take his news letter and he was calling this recent correction nearly to the month and dow point over two years ago. His reco's have been spot on, flawless, non emotive and very profitable to follow.

Y2K is going to cause a mess. Assuming we behave in a civil fashion we may come out of it fairly quickly. The collapse of "electronic money", even temporarily, should cause gold to spike ferociously. That is why I'm accumulating.

If you look at the US "spending wave" ( and put any stock in it ) it peaks in about 2008. There is definitely room for one more major leg up in this market. After that it falls dramatically. And it stays down for a long time, 15 to 25 years. I personally am making plans to be living out of the US prior to 2008.

Now for an interesting anecdote, this is a true story. I was driving home after work the other night, around 5:30, going into the semi rural foothills of Northern Colorado. I was in a line of cars about 5 or 6 long, we were spaced about two car lengths apart. A deer jumped out of the ditch in front of the car ahead of me and was run over. The woman driving the car was nearly as traumatized as the deer. I stopped and helped get the deer out from under her car. The deer was mortally wounded but not dead. About six other people stopped and helped me with the deer. One lady asked if anyone had a gun with which to dispose of the deer, i.e. put it out of its misery. All of us looked at each other and each got the proverbial grin on our faces. Every one of us had a gun. Before one of us could retreive our guns, a lady from an adjacent farm came out with a rifle, by the time she got to the deer two more came with rifles from the neighborhood on the other side of the street. To say the average American is armed is understatement.

Jefferson himself said that the primary purpose of the people to keep and bear arms is to guarantee ourselves a defense against our own government.

I don't know what will happen when the day of reckoning arrives, I do know it will come and I'm betting on around 2008. I plan to read about it from another continent. I would also bet I know the fate of the politicians when the salt of the earth finally figures out that they have financially wiped out by the spending of their elected representatives.

When I see these ultra hypocrites pronounce a budget surplus while they they spend money my grand children would theoretically have to repay, it makes me sick. Save Social Security? It's an insult to my intelligence to make that statement.

The day of reckoning will apply to more than abstracts like the country or the dollar. It will apply to the lives of humans. And those humans will seek revenge on the perceived perpetrators.

The overall leverage by the banks is terrifying when you finally understand it. I really was not aware of the magnitude of the problem prior to participating in this group. But there is tremendous momentum fueled by enormous numbers of people spending money that is not likely to abate and that is the key difference between now and 1929. I think the bankers will ratchet up the spring for another 8 years or so. I don't think the Euro can compete with the spending wave that is America for the next 8 years. In 2008 we will get the collapse so many think is imminent today and America will definitely take a financial back seat to another monetary power.

My nickles worth.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:34 - ID#259260)
@ Cherokee....regarding *Fword
Cherokee.... perhaps you didn't see it two days ago, but let me remind you of just the latest and greatest from Mr. *F..

Now mind you, this came within ONE DAY of this *Fboy, whining to Bart about an etiquette violation from Rich! And here are just a few Fboy quotes directed at me.....made the following day.

Date: Mon Nov 02 1998 22:27
farfel ( @LOU JAN and ALL...who said this? ) ID#341227:
Copyright  1998 farfel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

"... here's a little reminder of Mr. Warmth and Congeniality.. one is more than enough from the a member of the living Brain Dead.... "

"When it comes to hate, venom, and malice, there is nobody like this character...he hates every goldbug on this forum...he despises you all...he condescends to you daily with his haughty, superior, sneering ASB "As Before" comments posted about gold..."

" He does this, in all likelihood, because he is some poor insignificant drone"

"A malicious character like yourself does nothing for nobody.."

"So, LGBUGERTY, in my mind, you are the hands down winner of the "Hate Unlimited" award at Kitco"

" You are the relentless perpetrator of hate crimes on this forum."

"You hate everybody on this forum who believes in gold as a genuine safe haven..."

"You're so f*king superior to all of us that I just cower in your exalted presence."

"Who do you really work for?.. Probably work for Clinton, Rubin, and're their secret agent on this forum, aren't you?"

"Do us all a favor...drop dead! "

"Thanks. "


(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:35 - ID#219363)
Somebody wake me up when the equity rally is over, or when gold gets above 310, or, I dunno, when something interesting happens. Glad to see Mr. Ventura got elected, I hate to say it, but he seems like a reasonable kind of guy, a regular guy. Governor is okay, wouldn't want him as President or nothin, he doesn't even really have enough experience to be governor , but he'll probably figure it out okay. If not, he can always start throwing people into a leg lock. Besides, what's the worst thing that could happen, it's just Minnesota or something. Guy on the market radio station in Washington DC predicts DOW 30000 by 2002, so I guess that's something to look forward to. I hope investors are being careful, just in case there is some kind of real slow-down in the economy. The play money everyone is throwing around so freely right now might have to last a while, some people could end up looking back with that "how could I have been so..." kind of language running through their heads. It's fun, but it's for keeps. When the nuts are on the ground, gotta store some in the tree if you think winter is coming, before all the other Squirrels get'em.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:37 - ID#252150)
The 18:55 by IBCA should be printed out & read anytime anyone gets too
exuberant over POG. These guys have a stirling record & if you ignore them you do so at your own peril. I don't want to be a prophet of doom re: POG, just because my thinking aligns with theirs, but OTOH, if this post can save just one individual from a financial disaster, then it's worth it.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:38 - ID#240288)
Nick-- Weenies, t1 vs Reno

Re the big American Weenie-- Ouch! How true. Re Reno--t1 is a hell of lot prettier, but she could probably out wrestle him.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:39 - ID#288232)

no alibis........the facts and long posts speak
for themselves...

exchange e-mails....cyber-curse and jack-slap
each other into next year......the diatribe
is self-serving.....and self-sustaining......
take a 2 week hiatus from gives
one a new perspective on what/who is here....
and why each one of us is works....

being en-nobled matters not.......only the
message......time is short for the peopleo....
i read your comments because you are sentient..
and on diazepam...!; ) ..just kidding..really xanax...just kidding...!; )
the peopleo read your comments tambien.....
you have a message......make it heard....
and the noise will subside...kitcoites will
make it so........the chop-asaki awaits.


(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:40 - ID#259260)
@ *Fword
Thank you James. That';s why I just reposted to CHerokee, a few select quotes *Fboy made to me the very day following his complaint to Bart about someone's single etiquette violation!

This Fword character takes himself, and his ideas FAR too seriously. He's got this Gold messianic complex thing going that so reminds me of the wanna be cult leaders, from whom we've heard this kind of rhetoric before.

As for me...I'd dearly love to get back to what I usually discuss here. Gold, silver, Numismatics, a "contrarian" view of the U.S. economy ( vs. the Gloom & Doom view I guess... )

You're quite right...Fword needs some serious help and some serious medication.

*Fboy, take three Prozacs, three valiums, and three Midols...get plenty of sleep.... and call us in the morning!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:43 - ID#259260)
@ CHerokee
Your words are wise oh native one.... and I will indeed be "gone for a time" ( though not for 2 weeks ) .

But I think you'd best look at the reposts again before concluding that the dangerous mind which always manages these enormous site disruptions, should never be served a response.

Look back at every huge problem that has ocurred here at Kitco in the past 9 months. They've all cenetered around ONE individual.....have they not sir?

It is that individual who should be gone for 2 weeks ( or 2 milleniums... )

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:47 - ID#237299)
Tricky, Silverbaron, Tol1
Of course...if he really did find something he was not supposed to, what better way to discredit him than launch a zillion hoax articles, muddying the issue with hackers, MIB, bogus looking NSA stuff, etc etc. Remember those guys wrote the book on how to destroy careers and lead false trails. I'm surprised they didn't trot out they're usual trick and leak that he was a child pornographer.

On sci.asto and similar newsgroups there are a *lot* of threads from guys in the know about these things- not all are convinced this is a hoax.

There was a second astronomer, a Jay Oka in Japan, who got the same readings.

Makes ya' wonder.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:50 - ID#434256)
After we get through Y2K

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:53 - ID#288232)

i did not see is disgusting.......

farfel...what is really bugging you?
it cannot be anothers opinion.........
why the anger?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 21:56 - ID#119358)
@Will.O...your 21:33..............
kudos to YA!!!.....very nicely put, I'm of a mind THE DEBTS will sink the dollar way before 2008. salud!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:04 - ID#259260)
Gold , Silver, Platinum...... Luv em or hate em?
Lest anyone should ever be confused by the buzzing of rabid gnats.

* I own golden eagles, and Maple Leafs. They're beautiful, I luv em.
* I own Gold Saint Gaudens from the teens and twenties, they're beautiful, I luv em.
* I own several bags of silver Mercury dimes and Walking Liberty halves. They're beautiful, I luv em.
* I own several hundred collector coins, most of them silver, Morgan and Peace dollars, Barber coins, Walkers and Mercs...they're beautiful, I luv em.
* I own some modern Proof coins, Both Platinum Eagle Proofs, and golden eagle Proofs..they're beautiful, I luv em.

Every single one of the above coin investments is worth more today than what I paid for them, so I do know and apreciate the investment potential of these.......with the exception of the bullion Gold coins which have lost about 10% of their value. ( However, they will indeed evetually appreciate....greatly...... )

I own over 30,000 shares of mining stocks...they're not beautiful but I luv em. Overall, they've made me a small profit...only because of frequent trades.

I own Gold & Silver & Platinum & Numismatics & Mining shares as part of an overall investment strategy that includes intrinsic value hedges, and also because I've always had an interest in intrinsic value investments ( and Numismatics ) .

I love this forum ( thanks Bart ) and MOST of the participants therein ( OK, maybe love is an overused word...I greatly APPRECIATE most of the fine minds here! )

I speak my mind on the subjects at hand, and try to avoid food fights for food fight sake. However, by virtue of the fact that my views on the U.S. economy and such, are generally unpopular here, I may get into more than my fair share of said foodfights. ( And OK, I admit it...due to a little too much testosterone induced behaviour )

I read and post this forum, for reasons that are as far from *Fword's description of my motives, as you can possibly get.

On this forum, *Fperson isn't scary...I surely hope however, he never manages his goal of getting a cult following in some other area of philosohical debate, or we'll likely have a repeat of the Hale Bopp comet suicides.

Propaganda is useless, mindless, and pointless. It ignores reality and truth. *Fboy believes in propaganda with all his heart.

Nuff said.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:05 - ID#412286)
This election is a WATERFALL event of a movement to the left.
The real issue is why. The answer is that all the good things we hear about the economy have not helped the average person in a meaningful way. Hence they are concerned about the Patient's Bill of Rights aka Health Care and education. The reason for this is that they ARE REALLY insecure but state they believe the economy is great because they hear it everyday. Though falling consumer confidence is a sign and I think was a sign that the Left would do better in the election. When times become insecure talk of tax relief and trickle down stop playing in Peoria. The Left will prevail as the rights agenda is finally falling from favor after a twenty-thirty year ascendancy. As a Democratic Socialist I am heartened and hope we can help everyone out. Re GOLD IT IS THE LEFT IN RUSSIA/CHINA and EUROPE which is PRO GOLD and anti US DOLLAR. Zhironovsky, while in Baghdad, supporting Saddam Burnt a US DOLLAR for CNN cameramen. The LEFT IS the answer for true freedom and independence of the people. A bigger govt FOR THE PEOPLE and NOT THE S&P 500 is TRUE DEMOCRACY. God Bless FDR's spirit its comin back and it been a long time in comin'. THIS election and those in other democracies overseas spell the beginning of the end for the right wing WAll ST agenda. I loved IT NEWT looked like he had his tail between his legs..He should as the time for his agenda has passed and it is now ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:10 - ID#434256)
Progressive bank

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:10 - ID#266105)

ROR-- like this. If not 'liberal' at age 20 one has no
heart. If still a liberal at age 30 one has no head. And if
by age 40 one hasn't adopted something more libertarian in
viewpoint one hasn't really thought about it.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:10 - ID#187109)
hey Farfed*.....
you got it wrong.......AGAIN!

I majored in surfing at SDSU........and I minored in seduction............and my other ( double ) major was BITE ME! wax the board and grab my frozen concoction.......ohmy!


(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:13 - ID#259260)
@ EB
Lucky you...I had to work my way through San Jose State! No prestige, but a fine school. I've never put much stock in the "big name" schools anyway....*Fboy is an excellent example of why.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:14 - ID#219363)
Way Off Topic
Just wanted to point out that today was the birthday of Mr. Will Rogers, born in the year 1879. One of my personal favorites of history. Quoted by many, but my favorite simply "I never met a man I didn't like". Close second was "Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.", indeed.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:14 - ID#412286)
George Wallace
Became a LIBERAL at age sixty..and if anyone knew of the sins of the right he did..God rest his soul.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:16 - ID#28994)
Bu Gal
I enjoy reading your posts. Keep up the good work. As for "F", he does not bother me because I never read any of his posts, along with many others. After awhile, you get to know where certain posters are coming from. I do enjoy many of the people on Kitco and read their posts faithfully. Many, when you see the name, you just keep scrolling. On the other hand, some are so stupid and far out, it borders on entertainment and is worthy of a quick read.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:17 - ID#434256)
Angst amongst the sixpacks

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:19 - ID#300202)
@CBC News
Our Premiere' Minister does not know if he pays Employment Insurance ( He does not as he cannot collect )
Chokin' on my gulps & puffs

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:22 - ID#434256)
Changing gold fundamentals

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:24 - ID#370218)
The...Good...the Bad...and the Ugly....
I have seen all on this site today...tis not as it was and will never again be. Those who are not at peace with themselves can not be at peace with others. If the shoo know where.

Off to more peaceful THOUGHTS...geeeeze. Say a prayer...ever thought of gold???


(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:25 - ID#411271)
ROR, left, right government and politicians will never be for the people
never has and never will. Politicians are enamored with their own power. the left says they will tax and do good for you, the right says they will tax less and let business do good for you, but they both just tax and tax and tax and debase currencies, and tell you they have all the answers to the very problems that they create. The only thing that matters to any politician is justifying and maintaining his job. Whichever side of the political spectrum one comes from it is only a matter of the wraping, what is inside is a depreciation of all that a working person strives for by the default of excessive taxation.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:25 - ID#434256)
Playing with fire

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:26 - ID#412286)
Y2K aint the only thing happenin' at the millenium
LOOK for a Progressive/Left landslide in the 2000 election..Freedom and rights for the average person will return at last..Good News Jesse Ventura victory and Russ Feingold..both refused special interest money and prevailed. The Conservatives are so indebted to the crooked insurance companies it is ridiculous. However, that money gave them their period in the sun, short though it had to be by its hypocrisy and anti worker and consumer content..Good riddance. Even better news for the LEFT is Geo Bush Jr is constantly using the word compassion. IMITATION IS THE SINCEREST FORM OF FLATTERY. The future looks bright for progressive forces. GO!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:26 - ID#119358)
But do you have a little rangitO???? a.huh? a.huh? a.HuH? ;^ ) ~ yes, rangitO is le creme de le creme ( capable of creaming studio into a penniless oblivion in a twinkling of an eye! )'re a good bug, yes.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:31 - ID#28994)
Ain't he du dude wana sell u canuck mounty gold money and charge u 15% tax.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:34 - ID#434256)
Reading nature's clues
I once knew a gal from the northernmost point of the US not including Alaska. Someplace in Minnesota I think.

She told me about an old Indian who lived there. One year he was forecasting an extra cold winter.

The townspeople were curious as to how he knew. Could he tell by the animals having thicker than normal fur or the geese heading south earlier than usual?

He said he could tell because he had noticed that the white people had piled up larger than normal stacks of firewood by their cabins.

Nature's clues are where you find them.

The tension at Kitco seems a lot higher than normal these last few days.

This is not good.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:35 - ID#423380)
One foot in the mouth Cretien--"She was only da pepper spray, mais dey did not hit der heads wit da
baseball bats."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:38 - ID#238422)
Farfel and BUGAL/ the end of the day...
why wouldn't you both take 9 mm semi-auto
and shoot each other at least 15 may help
you to decide who is a better man....Just a friendly advice..

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:38 - ID#434256)
Away for the evening...
to await the London market opening and find out if gold's move today follows through tomorrow. Good night.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:39 - ID#413273)
ROR...where has this never never land you look for succeded..just one country would do..I want to
keep what I earn....if it makes you feel good to help the poor thats your right...but because I don't wont to...what makes it right for you to stick your hand in my pocket....compassion is all well and fine but should I not be the one who decides whether to give or me pro-choice if you will on this issue

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:40 - ID#35757)
In all this commotion...
Where's Rich?

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:40 - ID#227238)
You're a nice guy, probably from a good family background, ...... but if you never seek the definition of another word in your entire life, do look up the word: Contradiction. And if you're feeling especially adventurous, try the term, cognitive dissonance.

Then try to recall that it was your hero FDR who found merit in the case for gold confiscation. ...... and follow the thread from there.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:41 - ID#413273)
ROR..PS Progressives ...nice word still stands for can fool some but not me :-)


(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:49 - ID#119358)
@gOllum.............I find that.........
having a bit'o'chocolate puddin' seems to make the tension just float away. ahhhhhhh. And as my ol' pals@kitco used to beat me badly, for no apparent reason, and then give me some delicious chocolate puddin'. yumyum And again all would be well with the world....yes, I surely do love dat' puddin'. uhHuH.

nytol. ( copyright teddO ) studio.delirious

(Wed Nov 04 1998 22:50 - ID#285392)
FYI Here is a site for the Vancouver Stock Exchange in case you are interested.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:00 - ID#238422)
morbius, regarding Rich...
It's a very sad story...He could not prove
that he was just in this great
cowboy anecdote:

Cowboy stepped inside saloon and noticed a poster
near the piano - "DO NOT SHOOT THE PIANIST,
Nobody was playing piano,
and cowboy asked the bartender: "Where is the
pianist?" ..."This is a very sad story", said
bartender."Yesterday we had a visitor here who
could not read..."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:00 - ID#30345)
What's wrong with this stock.. Richmont mines.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:00 - ID#227238)
Studio R:
Is it Ok if I come over for some of that chocolate pudding? Yer Mom can beat me as well, if it means I get to have some too. ..... but not too hard. ...... I'm beginning to feel put upon, like F*. My Mom would dent the top of my head with a pot cover ...... but then she had to clean up the mess and stop the bleeding. .... Never had time to make me any chocolate pudding.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:07 - ID#412286)
I agree progessive equals socialist but there must always be the adjective Democratic. We want to assure that societies benefits are not so concentrated. When this happens power is concentrated and true democracy threatened. The special interest groups of the left are Labor and minorities, oppressed groups, consumers ant the attorneys who represent them. These people are not dangerous but their victories enhance the bargaining power of all people vis a vis capital. On the other hand the right is supported by big economic interests who want to squelch the ability of people to challenge their authority. Thus they are anti consumer protection, anti lawyer, anti affirmative action, pro bankruptcy reform, pro prison. In sum it is a battle for control. For the past few years many Americans have fallen for the drivel and thus a right wing Congress. Now it appears the trend toward the right has been arrested and I think reversed. Clinton will make mince meet of the conservatives now. I thonk what Clinton did was wrong and he should receive some penalty though impeadhment is NOW totally out of the question. The PEOPLE ARE MAKIN' A COMEBACK. It is the right wing which tells you politics doesnt matter because if enough people believe it they The big CORPS can get away with murder. IF THE HMO PATIENTS BILL OF RIGHTS PASSES GO ask an INSURANCE COMPANY EXECUTIVE IF POLITICS AND WHO IS IN CONTROL DOESNT MATTER...Case closed!!!!

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:07 - ID#28994)
Your post of Nov.3 01.34 you asked MJPL if the Templars were realy gone.
No response... HHHmmmmmmmmmm


(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:10 - ID#119358)
@Earl.O.....luv' ya' man.....BUT.............
you ain't gettin' none'o'my puddin'! I want all my puddin'! BTW, Mom now charges fifteen bucks for a good whippin', she found out there's a market. ohmy.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:12 - ID#45173)
They think a few months is a delay?
Wait until they figure out a major bank bailout takes five years.

Tokyo Nikkei stock average falls two

TOKYO, Nov 5 ( Reuters ) - The Tokyo Nikkei stock average was down
two percent in early afternoon trade on Tuesday amid growing
disappointment at an expected delay in the government's tax cut plans,
traders said.

At 0340 GMT, the key Nikkei stock average was down 319.05 points or
2.20 percent to 14,208.76.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:18 - ID#413273)
ROR...nice try no cigar...although I agree with you on Multinational rights were
given to me by GOD not the way Patients Bill of Rights is a are talking to someone who has been through the system.....medical malpractice .....I was the one that had to bend over .....

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:23 - ID#237299)
Thanks EJ:
Now I don't feel so bad getting out of my nekkeis's two days ago.

good night all

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:28 - ID#219363)
Wanted to correct the one statement that concerns a common myth: America isn't a democracy, it's a republic. You remember "And to the republic for which it stands" and all that jazz. It's a different beast, and not just a different word for the same thing. Anyway, carry on. : )

silver plate
(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:29 - ID#234253)
Having fun for only $36 dollars
Take a 1/10 golden eagle and throw it in your pocket with the rest of your odd change. Everytime you reach in your pocket to pay for some item out comes this beautiful coin, small but brilliant putting to shame all the rest of the junk that passes for money. Wouldn't it be nice if this became more commonplace? And money once again began to look real?

All you can lose is the $36 and you have a constant reminder of our basic belief. Also good PR. Someone else might see this shining example and say "what is that" and that gives you a wide opening for some enlightening conversation.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:36 - ID#412286)
When will you GOLD bugs admit it is the left that is pro gold and the WAll St L. Ruykeiser asnd L. Kudlow right who are your enemies. GOLDBUGS ( me included ) UNITE BEHIND PROGRESS, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR TAX LOSS CARRY FORWARDS.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:37 - ID#373403)
``Anything that undermines public confidence causes a concern. They put people in a panic needlessly while we are responsible for the nation's payments system, along with the Treasury Department,'' St. Louis Fed spokesman Charles Henderson pointed out. ``That's why we moved so quickly to get a retraction from the station.''

"That's why we moved so quickly to get gold down below $300."

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:43 - ID#373403)
U.S. Jewelry Market
In case any of you did not know this, the jewelry market is turning in a big, Big, BIG way to PLATINUM!

Almost all the custom jewelry I have made for the past year now, especially engagement rings, are in platinum.

Click on the first word "custom" for a lesson in lost wax casting.

(Wed Nov 04 1998 23:46 - ID#251309)
GIBBOUS -- just a hunch...
are you by any chance currently in DC?
via nj?