Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Kitco Inc. does not exercise any editorial control over the content of this discussion group and therefore does not necessarily endorse any statements that are made or assert the truthfulness or reliability of the information provided.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:04 - ID#333126)
for the crude (oil) bulls out there

I have to say though, that I think the price of crude can still slip a bit more ...

but perhaps not that much.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:07 - ID#284255)
Tech Review November 98

Make sure you read the fine print at the bottom of the review.^o-o^

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:13 - ID#284255)
Royal Bank
Note the comment on RTC's

From the ITAA
Jurisdictions Collaborate in Battle of the Bug
Maybe you had to be here. This week a distraught man jumped from the Capital Beltway's Woodrow Wilson Bridge-one of the busiest thoroughfares in the United States. Before he was pulled from the water with minor injuries, Ivin L. Pointer managed to create a colossal five-hour, 20-mile traffic jam that had even gridlock-hardened Washington commuters upset.
To Evans, the "guy on the bridge" is a vivid reminder that it only takes one bad microchip to stop a production line. Or even a metro area?

Gartner Report: Y2K Too Shall Pass
The GartnerGroup is gunning for Mad Max. Or at least the world-gone-mad mentality this movie brings to mind. Clearly distressed by Y2K "gloom and doom" sayers and the extreme measures some advocate in response, the company is now trying to pour oil on troubled millennial waters. Or as one of its leading consultants says, "pour oil on the hysteria."

And perhaps rid the world of a little snakeoil in the process?


John Disney
(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:14 - ID#24135)
Love dogs ..
For mike ..
Wise words on dogs .. splendid creatures ..

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:14 - ID#284255)
Stevens Compliancy Register

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:17 - ID#31868)
fin that shares, Namaste' gulp and a puff to are right...the fine print is the best
part of that previous post. Here it is below...Nite or day all...

Danny Donn
Information presented in this publication was obtained from sources believed to be reliable but accuracy is not guaranteed. Under no circumstance should any part of the content of this publication be considered an offer to sell or a solicitation to buy securities discussed herein. All data, information, and opinions expressed in this publication are subject to change without notice. This publication does not provide buy or sell recommendations. The Queens "proper" English spelling is employed throughout this publication ( the editors being Canadian by birth ) . The preceding sentence has been appended to mask all typographical errors and to discern whether any reader ever thoroughly reads this disclaimer. The Technology Review has been contacted by representatives of the U.S. Federal Reserve with a request that we canvas our subscribers for those with experience in the printing trade. The Fed is hiring. They are particularly interested in those with skills in high speed presses. They are also looking for surplus printing equipment and will pay top dollar for same. Contact us for further details. Please note that all of the Russian equipment listed for sale last month has been sold. Our only concern relates to the acquisition of one of our fighter jets by the president of a well known brokerage house, who has also hired a laid-off broker ( previously with the Bulgarian air force ) to perform "undisclosed tasks". We have contacted certain clients of the firm at his request ( all of whom are involved in legal actions with respect to trading losses ) to make them aware of his recent interest in aviation, and to point out that their cottages and/or homes have been accurately located via GPS. Applications are now available for the previously announced TTR Stock Trading Insurance Plan. Vicious rumours that stocks have been known to actually fall in price have been once again proven totally false, but accidents do happen. Dont trade without it. Whilst on the topic of rumours, we have checked and can confirm that Bill Fleckenstein is not establishing a paper reclamation plant in Oregon that would recycle the boat loads of U.S. treasuries currently enroute from Asia into Macdonalds serviettes. His request for a building permit has evidently been turned down in spite of financial and political support having been provided by the federal government.

Bart Kitner (Kitco)
(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:18 - ID#259253)
Just a few things
#1 Reminder: Ths is a gold discussion group, not a chat room. Use ICQ ( at ) if what you want is to carry on a live non-gold exchange.

#2 Reminder: This is a gold discussion group, not History of Religion 101. Please make the effort to keep the threads on topic. If you can't, then at least talk about stuff that's so boring that no one will bother responding to.

#3 Our ftp server is back up. You can once again upload files to add images to your postings.

#4 is the service we used to generate the real-time voting polls. It's really really simple for anyone to create a poll and put it on the net. Feel free to invent a poll for our group if you think it could be a useful tool for improving this site. When possible, I will initiate any changes that a strong majority desires. So if you think you have a good idea, put it to the test. If you don't have a website to host your poll, upload it to our ftp server at Put the link to your poll in one of your posts. All this can be done without any involvement from our side.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:32 - ID#350195)
Jeez Bart,
now I forgot what I was going to say....
Monday close predilictions:
POG spot 289.6
XAU 77.58

I sincerely ( no wax here ) hope I'm wrong.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:50 - ID#386245)
Does that mean I can't tell my skunk joke??
Who says Kitcoites arn't brilliant!!??
Where do you think spot gold will close On Friday November 6, 1998

below $285 ( 134 ) 15%

285-289.99 ( 181 ) 21%

290-294.99 ( 349 ) 40%

295-299.99 ( 138 ) 16%

over 300 ( 75 ) 9%

877 Total Votes

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:50 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John,

I do not know what Farfel meant ( see his post about you ) ,
but I know you are not that bad...I just know. I know you are
good and we both like people who behave with
dignity, keeping sense of humor handy at any moment...
I know that we both do not like loud political
statements...I can read you very well...unfortunately, Mr.
Farfel, who, of course, is exhasted by those bad guys attacks,
and I can not blame him, can not read you very well.
I guess some people are too sensative for the job of
being Jewish.

God bless you...and help them.

By the way, is there any way you can present written
evidence from the local rabbi near you that you are respected
and loved by the local Jewish community? It may help to
prove to Farfel that you are not that bad as he thinks...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 00:51 - ID#257312)
sharefin--Poll Ideas

How about putting some of them polls at your website? Could have a "Rate the Seriousness of Y2K", or "Price of Gold on Dec. 31, 1998", etc.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:00 - ID#343259)
Bank of America outage
My wife was making a deposit today for a client in Las Vegas. When she got to the B of A branch, she was greeted by an easel in the lobby stating "Sorry for the inconvenience. All our computers are down." When she spoke with the merchant teller and inquired further the teller said, "All the B of A computers are down on the entire west coast". My wife asked, "When did this happen?" The teller responded, "We turned on our computers this morning, and they they were up for a while, then they went down, then they turned back on again, then they flickered off and on, and then went down totally. They've been down the whole day". This was at 2:45 PM PST.

She handed over a million dollar deposit, and was a little nervous about getting a hand-written receipt, and no "comfort level" that the funds were deposited. She'll be looking for the interest mistake in the sweep account, you can bet.

Of more worry was that the receipt was a generic "Thank you for banking at B of A" preprinted form. The teller had to write "one million dollars", and then put in the correct number of zeros. The teller had to check three times to see if she had the right number of zeros. Then, a purple stamp, and that was it! My wife would rather have the machine printout to say 1,000,000 than a teller's hand written scrawl saying "One million dollars".

Late Breaking... Just called the BofA 800 number and inquired if the deposit had hit the account yet. Telephone attendant stated that "no it did not" but it will most likely post before 6 AM. She volunteered that all computers in every city in Nevada and California had been down all day, and were still down at 9:45 PM PST. She said that people who were looking to get money out were most hard put.

Gee, I can imagine escrows closing, no funds for cashiers checks--- weekend delay. I think this is just a taste of what is to come. B of A was early to the y2k game. They paid big salaries, got good programmers, paid bonuses to keep them, were supposedly "just about done" and in general "got the y2k religion" earlier than most. Wait till the other ( less funded and later adopters ) hit with their "lets-roll-it-into-production" attitude, and then let's wait until the ones that don't get finished just roll up and die.

P.S. This is not a what if scenario. This is what happened today. We searched the web, but no news of this event.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:01 - ID#341227)
@KITCOITES...and in the end....
...the love you take is equal to the love you make.

I guess what I'm trying to say at this late hour is that fundamentally, despite all the insults and the mind games and the ego challenges...

I love you guys. I really do.



Good night, sleep tight, my beautiful Kitco angels.

May your dreams spin into the finest gold and the rewards of Heaven shine brightly upon you.



(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:14 - ID#257312)
Compgeek, Miro, et al--

Here is a short piece on the computer problems with the Euro. Any thoughts about this article?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:26 - ID#238422)
That last post was a good, do not start it again
and everything is gonna be just fine...If somebody
INSULTS you again, I may interfere on your behalf...but
you should stay cool, let professional deal with the
problem, yes?

Reading your posts,
I came to the conclusion that you do not have any
guns..., so, get a gun, go to shooting range, blast
some empty cans and stuff - it helps to let the steam
out...I know.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:39 - ID#206235)
@ Bart
Liked the last about a poll on whether Gold or the DOW will yield the highest gains ( relative to U.S. dollar values ) between now and year 2000?

Ooops...don't wanna get lynched. Scrath that idea..instead, a poll on whether Gold, Silver, or Platinum will yield the largest gains betwixt now and then.

( All assuming that there is a gain! )

Thanks for the site and reminders Bart. I guess this probably isn't a "luv fest" site either eh?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:39 - ID#280214)
Cultural Diversity, Gold and Blood
Sharefin at 00:46 last night wrote:
"Sheeesh, and I thought Ozzies didn't need guns.
What are they mobilising for? Probably going to
keep the immigrants out of our country. "

Due to Y2K and other pending worldwide calamities ,
people may increasingly withdraw into ethnic, cultural &
national enclaves separated and fortified against outsiders.
Many of these enclaves will rightly fear ethnic cleansing or
"cultural editing". If not that, then it will be circling the
wagons for survival, conserving resources for use by one's
own extended family, neighborhood, community, or
nation. Anyone not part of the group will be viewed as an
enemy - whether they be Hatfields vs. McCoys. gays vs.
straights, blacks vs. whites, muslims vs christians,
east-siders vs west-siders, or mountainfolk vs. cityfolk.

This nation ( and world ) is needs a "statesman" ( male or
female ) to unite people against such worldwide threats. But
liberal "cultural diversity" proponents are encouraging
divisions among people and increasing one group's rights
at the expense of other groups. They encourage groups to
take issue with any perceived slight from another group.
Rather than a "melting pot" to form a strong alloy, they are
encouraging the precipitation of the various constituents
into separate "pure" enclaves. The body thus formed
fractures under stress along the lines of such enclaves. Any
metallurgist or other materials specialist knows this reality.

The only ones who benefit from such strife are those who
gain power or wealth from such divisions - as in
"leadership" of separate groups or receiving government
grants to study or even encourage such cultural enclaves or
selling arms to opposing factions. Without such divisions
these people such as Jesse Jackson and the "diversity
proponents" in our local schools would be out of jobs as
counselors, negotiatiors, and champions of the many
causes. They flourish in an environment where you have
separate groups of Hispanics, Mexicans, Blacks, Native
Americans, Vietnamese, Chinese, Gays/Lesbians,
Francophiles, Anglophiles, Catholics, Protestants, etc.

For instance, in America, the blending of all these disparate
groups into "Americans" as in "Assimilation, American
Style" jeopardizes the continuing flow of government
grants, special priviledges, and lines of power or influence
engendered by these divisions. In my community we have
many people who live from grant to grant. If a qualifying
"cultural diversity" problem is not "bad enough" to warrant
a grant to study or rectify it, then they root around until
they find one or until they instigate one so that such a grant
is then warranted, which they apply for ( and get paid for
doing the application ) and which they then get hired to
administer the grant and dole out the windfall to fellow
"diversity" allies. Through continued fanning of the flames
of "cultural diversity" and ethnic preservation they keep
each other on the government gravy train.

Before critics rebut that these champions of diversity only
care about helping oppressed groups, I must add that these
paid champions only work when they are paid. Rarely do
they volunteer for long and then only until the next grant
comes in. Their hue and cry is that it costs so very much to
address these problems. Yes, the cost is very high - in
payrolls to each other. These folks do not work for
peanuts. Many of these grant addicts are not content unless
they are making over $30,000 per year in a community
where most of their "disadvantaged constituents" make half

These people thus are preparing the seed bed for anarchy
which, in the long run, may be great for the price of Gold.
When national currencies burn in such a conflagration then
arms and food may be bought only with Gold and blood.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:42 - ID#206235)
@ EB re Disney
Disney stock looks like a reverse head and shoulders in the works with an uptrend. Me thinks you'll be in profits soon...all the better to buy more PLATINUM with!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:46 - ID#206235)
@ Sheller
Yes indeed your CRK call was an excellent one... and I would have aquired some if it weren't for the emergency that happened with Loral stock when it dropped to a third of it's former value in days, around that same time frame.

This necessitated my putting every penny I could into it at 10.50 and watching it's subsequent rise of 70% this past month. Now, what do you see for CRK going forward? ( And don't tell me that Astrology was the ONLY reason you called that bottom ... !!!!! )

PS.... Silver...SSC stock...whaddya think? I can't even make small trades in the dang stuff because it's been so flat at 11/16 to 3/4 the past two weeks. Doesn't budge.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:47 - ID#343259)
@Auric re Euro Computer coding
Having designed and written trading/accounting/management systems and multi-currency multinational software, I was most struck by the thought after reading the article, that the monetary representations used in software tend to be viewed by the designer as "a given". Here in the States ( and in most parts of the world for that matter ) , all currencies are represented as 9.99 ( dollars and cents ) . We tend to take that for granted. When in Italy, I had to be concerned that a new Lira ( Whoops! almost transposed that into "Liar" ) equal to 1,000 lira could be implemented. This would necessitate 9.999 representation. Since the monetary "standards" themselves rarely change, the programmers have traditionally not made these fields flexible. And they literally permeate the file structures in use today.

Multinationals have got to be going a bit nuts. I mean, it was common practice for a Swiss client of mine to be dealing with 12 or so currencies, but all convertible into SFR. Now Euro is not just another currency, but one which must share "base" status for a while, and then be "the" currency base. When the Swiss parent accounts for their Singapore subsidiary that pays local taxes in Sing$ but trades oil in USD, and now consolidates to Euro?

Of note is that the US accounting profession with their FASB pronouncements have influenced multinational accounting practices to a great degree. Are these "quasi standards" also subject to a more Euro accounting?

Here are an extended "Top Thirteen" problems with the Euro implementation ( off the top of my mind ) : 1 ) It is a monetary change 2 ) it needs a national and euro base accounting 2 ) It is an accounting change 3 ) It is a legal change 4 ) It is a regional change 5 ) It affects every sector 6 ) It is a national change 7 ) It has to talk to the rest of the world 8 ) The rules are changing ( Baaaaaaaddd ( tm Gollum ) for programming 9 ) There is a phase in period where rules are more complex 10 ) No one is really using it today ( no test in action ) 11 ) There are no implementations, and no experience from them to profit from 12 ) There is MASSIVE CHANGE in many languages ( natural ) and ( computer ) all at once.

And ( Drumroll ) number 13 What if it is a failure, and they have to go back! ArrrrgggggHHHHH!

I am expecting a disaster, personally. Add to this y2k, and...

Well, I've got gold.

For those who think it could never fail, I have a tower to sell you, or, at least the *plans* for it..


(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:52 - ID#284255)
Swing chart updated

Due to the current excesses it looks like the swing wants to go a bit higher.

After that well.^o-o^

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:53 - ID#284255)
Email chatter
Thank you for your analysis and your attempt to compare the impending
Y2K disaster to Japan after the dropping of the bomb. However, I must
respectfully disagree with your conclusions. There are certain conditions
that substantially differentiate Y2K from the situations you mentioned
in these "bombed out" cities.

( Forgive me if this is old material to some of you out there )

First, we must consider the fact that Y2K is systemic. Everyone will
be going through the same problems at roughly the same time. In post war
cities quick recovery was only possible because of massive support efforts
from the surrounding countryside and, in some cases, substantial help from
foreign countries. My own grandfather who served as a marine during World
War II, worked as part of the relief effort in Japan after the war ended.
Without the many helping hands, recovery would have taken much longer.

Second, we should understand that our society has grown much more
dependent on automation. Consider the many stages of machinery our food
supply must go through from planting to harvesting, from processing to
packaging, to shipping and distribution. We take for granted the wide
variety of food available to us, shipped in from around the world, placed
on the supermarket shelf "just-in-time". But without this miraculous
"food machine" our cities will die very quickly indeed. We are in great
peril if we do nothing to prepare ( which seems to be what is happening ) .
Contrast this with the food supply just after World War II. Bombs
destroyed the cities, but very little of the surrounding farms and
countryside. Certainly there were shortages, but there was still a
harvest and the food only had to travel a short distance to get to the
people that needed it. Do we trust our current agricultural infrastructure
( petro-based fertilizers, hybrid seeds, pesticides, gasoline dependent
farm machinery ) to be as resilient?

Finally, we have to consider the general mood and mental preparation
of people then and now. The citizens of these bombed out cities you
mentioned were hardened by many years of war, tempered by long term
shortages and hardships imposed by their respective war efforts. They
had already learned how to work well and survive together long before
the bombs fell.

Today, on the other hand, I sense around me a reckless sort of complacency.
Irrational exuberance begins to describe it, but it feels more like
plain old irresponsibility. No one wants this to be "my problem" so
the denial goes on and on, and the rationalizing and the blame-storming,
and the token gestures. We are ripe for a "social breakdown" as you put
it. But then, what is a social breakdown? How many people have to die
before we call it that? I prefer to think of it as a "social

I agree with you that we should make an effort to mitigate the event,
but there is too little time left to make a serious dent, other than
on a personal level. Those who have the authority are not acting quickly
enough, and unfortunately all of us will suffer because of their lack
of understanding. The more I look at it, the more strongly I feel that
we are facing heavy casualties when we hit the wall. I take no pleasure
in making that assessment, but that is the only plausible scenario I
can see coming out of this. Prepare accordingly.

Daeron Meyer

(Sat Nov 07 1998 01:57 - ID#284255)
Email chatter - - yes sure????
Coffou and Moore gave a rundown of year 2000 problems with
Microsoft products. They are not all, "Year 2000 Ready."
Several applications, including Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and
Exchange Server 4.0 need patches, and there are user-created
problems with Excel, VB, FoxPro, and Access. Microsoft's
recommendations are to include all MS products in Year 2000
inventories and assessments, upgrade to current releases for
all MS products after mid 1998 but before 2000, and educate
the users to enter four-digit dates when making applications
using MS products. Moore briefly described how difficult it
had been to get useful information from Microsoft, and told
a story about a project manager whose budget for a desk-top
remediation program had been cut after the CEO went to a
luncheon where Bill Gates was the speaker. Gates responded
to a question about MS year 2000 compliance by saying there
were no year 2000 problems with MS products.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 02:09 - ID#153102)
You are quite correct. Government in America is fomenting division and fracturing America into enclaves. Holding onto power has become a means unto itself for the federal government in America and for the subdivisions of itself which deceitfully and falsely call themselves states. It no longer serves the purposes for which it was established and whoich are espressed in the preamble to its Constitution. It is establishing injustice, not justice; it is disturbing not insuring domestic tranquillity; it defends itself and neglects the common defense. It is on a path to self-destruction and of destruction of America from which it cannot depart, because of the lure of power. Unless there is a miracle of education of the people, the path back to gold coin money looks as if it will be drenched in blood and scorched by fire.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 02:17 - ID#280214)
Apologies for the long philosophic post with short lines
Composing in an e-mail window then changing my mind and posting to the group in general instead carried over the line breaks from a narrow window. Composing in a wordprocessor document where text flow is automatic, then copy/pasting into this comment window works much better.
But then again, a long philosophic post with short lines that just goes on and on through two screen pages may qualify for the fast scroll button and being boring enough to may also qualify under Bart's "boring" category.

Sharefin's latest e-mail chatter on Y2K reactions brings to mind the post some time ago comparing the reaction in New York City to a blackout. In 1965 folks pulled together, in 1979 there was looting, burning and gunshots within minutes. In communities where most folks know each other and have worked together in community projects or have cooperated in business or personal relationships then, yes, they may pull together in a crisis such as a Y2K loss of all utilities, grocery & fuel deliveries, etc. But in "communities" where people have been encouraged to treat others as strangers or even enemies then all hell will break loose. People who now live in such "communities" had best either dissolve down those barriers and work together ( unlikely since the forces for division may be greater than they are ) or move to a more unified community AND make great effort to blend in and not bring any baggage of "group rights" and other such chips on their shoulders.

Again we in this little mountain town have endured outsiders who move here and immediately start telling us what we should do or not do. These folks volunteer in local groups and sometimes rise to some "leadership" position because they are willing to work more on particular issues than locals. But within the community as a whole they alienate other groups and add to divisions and strife. Their importation of city ways into a small community may fracture that community when it comes under stress - unless the community either expels them or forces them to conform.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 02:43 - ID#413156)
We asked 10 prominent Kitcoites the direction of Gold over the next few months and here are the answers of this Intellectual survey.

Eb going up maybe but I like diamonds Girls best friend getting married soon ha maybe like corn Ebeatingcornoffthecobs

LGB I like the coins especially my coins talk to you later working on my next post for F*.

Farfel-The higher the better maybe 800 hold on let me check the net for those Jewish bashers

Disney Lets see have to ask my son hey sonny how far is gold going down

Mike Sheller I seemed to have lost my telescope but I think therefore I am yes thats right got it

Bart Kitner I dont hang around here anymore with all this foul language so I know very little about filth I mean Gold that is

Mooney Before I say anything let me say now I never told anybody to buy Bre-x or any other Gold stocks I just talk on Kitco for the fun of it Go Coca Cola Go

RJ Gold will move in 1999 so what if I had a few bad Platinum calls I still is a good writer Yes.

Cherokee -The trees are telling tales of leaves and the leaves are falling into the winds of unknown forces so let this be a warning ridingthesmokemobilewithtwoflattires

Tolerant1-I never talks about Gold sure love to smoke and drink and talk and talk and talk what did I say?

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:02 - ID#428218)
A very interesting retrospect.... .....not the URL

This article puts some "light" on the recent bailout of the LTCM by the Federal reserve Bank & Associates !

It's a pity that Moses was/is not a US citizen. With the accelerating US National Debt, the ballon going up on Wall Street, the US national Governments' ongoing media illusion.........someone is going to have to "part the waves".

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:09 - ID#284255)
Will do - thanks for the idea.

Any idea on the questions I should run?
All input considered.

After all we do have a great collection of minds here.
Email me with your thoughts.

The Gilded Compass
Essays by Otto Scott


Greenstone Gold
(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:15 - ID#428218)
IF THE FED CAN DO IT...............

An extract from the article by The Red Baron....

If the Fed Can Do It - Why Not All Central Banks?

Financial institutions and large speculators have become understandably oblivious to the real risk of the gold options market.

Was it not well-known that the central bank "controlled" gold prices within a well-defined tight range? Was it not well-known the central bank is in the business of writing gold Call options in order to generate a constant flow of real income on their idle gold? Was it not well-known the Fed is authorized to execute such orders ( selling gold Call options on bullion deposited in FRB in New York ) on behalf of foreign banks? What could be easier and more discreet? And all perceived at seemingly no risk!

The REAL DANGER is that gold Call option growth will eventually exceed the amount of gold existing and available in the event the Fed loses control of the market price of the yellow metal. Consequently, there will be the ugly likelihood of a violent short-squeeze causing gold prices to orbit - and conceivably precipitating chaos in the currencies market. The current state of gold's open interest is testament to the growing ( indeed explosive ) instability of this market. Large commercial hedgers - who
are traditionally net short - have been for many months carrying a historically high net long position. On the other side of the gold futures market are the large Specs, who are in an all-time high net short posture. The dynamics of this situation are mind-boggling.

As the Internet's Resident Economist, George S. Cole, so aptly puts it: "LOOKS LIKE THE GOLD CALL OWNERS WILL GET SCREWED AS USUAL. Interesting to see how fast gold recovers AFTER OPTION EXPIRATION!"


Perhaps this explains why the FED/Greenspan are soooooooooo quiet over seemed a good idea at the time !!!!!

Och aye the nooooooooooooooooo



REMEMBER LTCM...................

John Disney
(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:23 - ID#24135)
morning reflections..
for Regulus ..
Brilliant effort

for Brother Oris ..
Thank you .. am checking out local Rabbi situation ..

for F*
Do you love me TOO??

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:30 - ID#266105)

As spock puetz it, beaming up. Haggis, nice one, jd, how be
the cape.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:31 - ID#428218)
i MAY BE A WEE BIT SLOW..............

But, it makes you wonder that in the LTCM fiasco, was LTCM acting as an agent for the FED in the GOLD derivatives market ??????

I wonder..........

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:37 - ID#266105)

As one wag working in the securities industry put it around the
time of the LTCM blowup, saying hedge funds are the 'connectors'
of the global financial system. That struck me odd at the time...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:40 - ID#284255)
Petronius - the missing aspect
That not all the pigs are in yet.
That when there are in, they will become porkers.

And when they're porkers the only way out
Is to jump from the frying pan and into the fire.

So we need more pigs, porkers and a hotter fire.
And then we'll see lots of burnt pigs.

Safety in numbers???

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:43 - ID#266105)

Regulus-- good on ya. Scary to find things out there crazier
than you are.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 03:56 - ID#266105)
rainy day people/everyman's gutenberg/soapboxes & suchlike

877 Total Votes

Seems a tad more than one would gather. Maybe some's form
of contribution/participation falls on the other side of the
equation, listening.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Nov 07 1998 04:05 - ID#428218)
What is gold............

EXTRACT FROM OTTO SCOTTS ESSAY......URL via Sharefin's last posting...

very interesting read from a wise man of 80 years age....


Meanwhile President Reagan, elected after President Carter watched the official U.S. interest rates rise to 20 percent and inflation soar, slowed official inflation by slowing the Treasury's printing presses. He accomplished this, however, by switching the Treasury presses to bond issues. These borrowings, slated to be repaid in the future, met with seemingly miraculous success in the international financial world. They crowd the vaults of the central bank of Japan and many other nations, as
well as the private holdings of tens of millions of patriotic Americans. Unfortunately, they are all payable in dollars. What President Reagan accomplished was to halt the retail production of dollars, in exchange for wholesale borrowings.

One result was that foreign nations could hardly refuse to subscribe to successive new bond issues by Washington, lest such a refusal precipitate a drop in the price of holdings already in their possession. Sales of these holdings may do the same. Such runs could bring down the great global empire of paper dollars, which every government lists as assets.

This situation has long since alarmed the central banks of Europe. That is the reason for the European drive toward a common European "Euro" currency to replace the dollar. The plan makes it clear that Western Europe does not want to be inside the house that Washington built when the roof falls. This has led to a drive in both European and American financial circles to industrialize the Orient, through a multitude of joint ventures, to avoid being caught in a global collapse. Meanwhile, every financial center is neck-deep in paper currency except for Switzerland.

Switzerland alone has a gold-backed currency and bank secrecy. The Swiss franc is the only existing alternative to fiat money floating everywhere else, whose purchasers ( and depositors ) represent very conservative investors. That is the reason that Europe led by France and Germany has been attempting to put together a new global financial system that will continue the welfare state that is only possible with paper money and inflation. Such a system cannot succeed indefinitely of course. It might last as long as the tenure of our present rulers and that is all that most rulers can conceive.

But Switzerland, with its real currency, is an alternative and reachable system. As it stands, outside NATO and outside GATT and outside the new Euro plans conceived in Berlin, Paris and Brussels, ( 20 ) it remains in silent competition to a New World Order that cannot be ignored. It is in that context that the campaign on behalf of Holocaust victims and their deposits assumes an unexpected and unanticipated, but very timely, global importance. That is why Washington has taken the rare step of supporting a minority campaign by threatening to freeze Swiss assets in the U.S. unless its banks placate their critics. Switzerland cannot, in other words, be allowed to remain outside the Club. That is why the Swiss are understandably alarmed, because bankers rely upon reputations for honesty and fairness and a campaign that attacks Swiss banks on moral issues can be deeply injurious.

Therefore, the overall role of gold in the world economy today is even more important than ever before as a growing threat to the rulers of a paper empire.


At this point in time, I would tend to suggest that the BOIS/Swiss are "winning" ?!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 04:12 - ID#284255)
Texas Guidebook - note the natural gas comments
Similarly, the Public Utilities Commission ( PUC ) is working with large private utility companies throughout Texas to solve the Year 2000 problem. Because the agency only regulates private utilities, however, its efforts cannot provide any protection for almost 3 million Texans who obtain their electricity from municipally-owned utilities and cooperatives.

Of the 10,000 Texas oil and gas operators regulated by the Railroad Commission of Texas ( RRC ) , about 100 are large organizations that are devoting time and resources to Year 2000 preparations. The remaining 9,900 are small firms, largely in rural areas, that may not be able to adequately prepare for Y2K . Gas pipelines, whose flow is controlled by computer processors, are at high risk for interruption and shutdowns. Since RRC does not have specific Year 2000 regulatory authority, it cannot require industries to evaluate or correct potential Y2K problems. In the rail industry, moreover, computer processes and applications manage transportation schedules and train switching. Inoperable switches would disrupt rail service and could delay the delivery of essential goods and services to your community. Railroads, in fact, provide an excellent example of the complex interdependencies between industries that may be disrupted by Y2K. Coal delivered by rail fuels many electric power plants, and even if the electric utilities have thoroughly prepared for the Year 2000 challenge, their generating plants could shut down if they cannot obtain fuel.

Greenstone Gold
(Sat Nov 07 1998 04:20 - ID#428218)
2BR02B? (hag) .........

I would recommend that you give OTTO SCOTTs' essays a read.

On face value, it would appear that we have an insolveable issue in terms of resolving the US national debt, especially if GOLD is considered in the equation.

On the other hand, who in the US actual controls GOLD... the FED or Treasury.......the FED ?

What is the direct and indirect relationship betweeen the BIS and the FED. Is the FED a "mere" American branch of the BIS ??

The BIS is a transparent "looking glass". No matter how you look at it, you see no detail, although it is looking you straight in the face. What you can ONLY see is GOLD.

Perhaps the GOLD derivative market is the "basta*d son" of the BIS, but it is STILL part of the family !!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 04:35 - ID#266105)

Haggis-- I've skimmed Mr. Scott's editorials. I find some
difficulty with the initial few paragraphs of his latest which
happens to intersect an area of abiding interest before moving
on to areas quite out of my league.

As regards the central bankers' central bank BIS, SDRer
has and has had his nose buried deep in that murk. I honestly
don't know what is or isn't in that regard.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 05:43 - ID#284255)
Some react slowly to Y2K - same with gold,4153,367930,00.html
Most companies are prioritizing Y2K projects, but many will be too late. That's according to a recent study conducted by the Cameron School of Business at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington and Chris Jesse, president of Tangram Enterprise Solutions Inc., which found that the majority of IT managers have put Y2K fixes at the top of the priority list, but many won't be able to achieve Y2K compliance in time.

Of the 449 Fortune 1000 top-level managers that participated in the survey:

30 percent do not conduct hardware and software inventories of their assets;
68 percent say their inventory process cannot immediately detect the presence of noncompliant software applications;
31 percent have not yet developed a list of noncompliant applications within their enterprise, and 9 percent say they do not plan to create such a list;
42 percent have not yet ranked the importance of noncompliant applications within their organization, and 22 percent do not plan to rank them;
65 percent have not yet calculated the cost of correcting errant desktops;
30 percent have not yet secured the required labor necessary to address their year 2000 effort;
71 percent have not yet developed a compliance plan that defines which desktops need to be fixed and in what order; and 75 percent have not developed a methodology to ensure problems are corrected on time and not reintroduced into the organization.

One just has to imagine the POG going skywards.

Be it that Y2k does knock down society for 6 months
There's going to be no gold production - except for the backyard operations.

With an increased demand for gold and a slow down in production.
( Imagine Lihir with no oil, fuel, food, supplies etc for 6 months? )
Multipy that worldwide.

One just has to imagine the POG going skywards.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 06:08 - ID#26793)
Russia says it is short of food and needs world handouts. Here is the reason why.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 06:27 - ID#26793)
Forbes says gold is just an artifact of government policy

(Sat Nov 07 1998 06:40 - ID#266105)

Last line of A. Greenspan speech 11/5/98:

I fear only that when available delay becomes evident,
we will fall back into inaction, raising the stakes of
the next crisis.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 06:58 - ID#266105)

Mr. Mick
(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:01 - ID#345321)
2BRO - what does Greenscam, I mean, Greenspan.....
mean by "available delay"? Does the guy speak English, ever?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:08 - ID#411440)
@ all, re. GOLD LEASE RATES: I was just over checking the
World Gold Council's "weekly gold report" and they report that one

month gold lease rates fell to .37% at the end of the week. Yet

Dabchick's figures show one month leases rising to .70% I think

that both sources are accurate. I think that Dabchick's figures

represent lease rates as they should be, and mostly are according

to mere market forces, yet somewhere out there is a source of

ultra cheap leased gold. In short, the discrepancy is another

indication of manipulation.

I am going to attempt to find out where WGC gets its lease rate data.

Maybe we can discover who is manipulating the POG.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:29 - ID#266105)

Mr. Mick--- I think he was referring to, from his vantage
point, the desirability of doing something, after a view
from the precipice of the abyss, now while things are again
sorta 'cool.'

Mr. Mick
(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:35 - ID#345321)
2BR0 - As much as I would like to see Gold go up...........
I'm afraid that it would only be under severe economic and/or finiancial circumstances that it would happen. As bad as it sounds, I think I would rather have the current situation continue than see it collapse. However, the business cycle rules, and governments and financial systems follow. That's the way it is...........

(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:41 - ID#266105)

Mr. Mick-- no argument here.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:41 - ID#348169)
@Donald and Russia
The world is certainly a strange place isn't it? Russia sells her wheat to the world for cash and USA gives her back almost the same exact amount she exports ( on yearly basis ) as a free gift. Great deal if you can get it. Now, lets see, if the Canadian government has sold all our gold, doesn't that mean that...?

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:52 - ID#348257)
catchup ketchup
Regulus - your 2:43 - Delightful

Obsidian - truce!

BUG_AL ( LGB ) CRK should get to $10 cometime by later '99, as a minimum. I think the leverage is eaten up by this move, but I do expect a FINAL wealkness in oil in January/February - so it may come back somewhat.

As for SSC I think if ever there was a time to "accumulate" a stock it is now, and SSC is it. Big, liquid, lowpriced, with its underlying commodity ( silver ) neglected and torpid. This is a patience play. SSC's cycle gives it a major move every 5 years or so - along with silver prices. We are in King Kong's footprint, looking for a monkey. This is a major bottom area for PM's. It is just a matter of time that SSC will be several dollars. If it gets past 2.25, stand back!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 07:58 - ID#344239)
@mooney* 07:41

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:03 - ID#348257)
Mr Mick
It is a fallacy to believe that gold must only increase at the expense of catastrophe. You are correct that the business cycle will win out. In a normal cyclical sense, gold is the last asset to rise in a business cycle wave. When Bonds top, stocks continue for a while, then gold joins. Sometimes all 3 assets are rising together. We are now entering the last phase of the cycle, and a very large one at that. Up until now this cycle has been one of disinflation. If this disinflation has run its course, and is now at its severest point, which I think it may be, then the huge expansion of money and credit of the past 2 decades will soon be disgorged into "inflationary" expressions. Actually, the "inflation" has taken place. The effects must now be translated by a rearrangement of financial factors and events, and augmented by government attempts to stabilize the mess they have created. The political winds are shifting. Newt Gingrich's resignation is a straw that the philosophical level of the voter, worldwide, hyas not emerged yet from the welfare state mentality and dependence upon authority to manage society and solve problems. There can be no discovery of principles with this kind of attitude, so we are due for another lurch of the sociological cycle leftward. As we move toward balance, the swings get shorter and faster. It will come more rapidly than people think. The future will see rising costs, prices, and waste, and new and more ingeneous limitations on human freedom. Get real...get gold.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:19 - ID#224230)
@Mike Sheller
Insofar as Mr. Gingrich was in his own words, "a lightening rod" for a certain set of political philosophies, is it too premature to analyse from an astrological/energetic POV what his departure will mean ?
WJC's astrological CV has relevance, does NG's departure ?

i.e. any new Speaker will sensibly avoid getting tagged with a "lightening rod" role and thus the nature of the political debate will become less polar and more consensual.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:25 - ID#347457)
@Auric on computer problems with EMU

sure EMU conversion is the big IT project, however, the story contains a number of conflicting statements. For the last couple of years, Y2K camp complained that Europe does not pay enough attention to Y2K and focuses on EMU. The article says "they are working on Y2K and don't have resources to fix EMU, etc. It goes on and repeats all familiar themes about Y2K.

Is it a problem? It sure is, however, the article contains mixing messages, e.g., about "competing telecom companies, where after the dust settles only about five contenders will survive" - this has nothing to do with Y2K, it's ongoing war that is already happening Y2K/EMU or not. In the middle you can read that airline companies think they'll be fine, however insurance will make fly/no-fly decision, etc.

A lot of things will be blamed on Y2K and EMU, things which would happen even without Y2K/EMU.

What partially bugs me that the info is coming from the conference organized by Gartner Group. In my view, Gartner lost a lot of credibility lately. They made a lot of generic statements and misstatements, some of their key people lost objectivity when making statements just before accepting high level positions with private industry ( be my guest to figure out which companies were favored by these statements ) , etc.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:45 - ID#119358)
@the end of another good year draws near.
what a great joy it is to be among the living. to be somewhat mindful of our mortality, yet never allowing this into our heart. indeed.

BTW, as it pertains to the less and less salient issue of ad attack antics........Early this morning God softly spoke to me of the art of getting over it....and he chose notes from a guitar as his language, he spoke of plenty'o'peace and food for all.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:50 - ID#37463)
Gold, what else
Thanks, M. Sheller for your pithy comment on gold and the market. Some on this site begin to wring their hands as soon as gold retrenches slightly for one day after a nice two day rise in gold and XAU. What I am sensing is a building base in gold and gold shares which will proceed forward steadily by jerks. This move up in the paper market seems to me to be a non-impeachment of Clinton euphoria which in the long run will have about as much substance as methane flatulence from the rear end of a heifer; it has an odor ( albeit not a good one ) but little more. The P/E ratio simple does not support a market at these rates and eventually will fall of its own weight.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 08:51 - ID#31868)

(Sat Nov 07 1998 09:09 - ID#258142)
Sorry for not answering yesterday - I quit too soon - to celebrate.
Regarding EURO/Y2K in Europe - it looks like big guys - major banks, insurance companies, multinationals are or will be ready in time and they do it in one shot - both EURO conversion and Y2K compliance. But when I have asked my accountant, can I convert my accounts to EURO he was not happy with this question and proposed to wait for a year. Probably, its a general picture: bigger companies will migrate to EURO on Jan 1, smaller ones and all who work with cash - later, not in 1999. Important thing is that bourse nominations - shares, options, etc. will be in EUROs staring from Jan 1, 1999.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 09:13 - ID#255226)
Mike Sheller
I own a lot of SSC, they have a river of warrents coming due in March of 99 priced around 2.00. I think there is a lid on that stock until they expire.

Mr. Mick
(Sat Nov 07 1998 09:19 - ID#345321)
Mike Sheller - Newt resigned?? Where the hell have I been???
Not paying full attention to the news, evidently. Agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. Am reading ( thanks to Tolerant1 ) The Sovereign Individual, ( having read The Great Reckoning ) , and your thoughts are supported by Davidson and Rees-Mogg. I'm trying to intelligently anticipate the coming century.
Will the deflation scenario drive gold and silver bullion to new lows?
I guess that is the 64 million dollar question.
Have a good day! :- )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 09:28 - ID#31868)
Regulus, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I have just taken a break from not talking
about gold in my sleep...unhooked the intravenous gulp machine and removed the puff response to you is that if you stood on your grandmother's shoulders you still would not be able to kiss my pork...

Mike K
(Sat Nov 07 1998 09:57 - ID#153290)
Do you think it likely that Europe can assimilate Y2K and the Euro in the same 12 month period? I think many here ( US ) are betting - not. The obvious question then becomes, whither the euro?

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:01 - ID#348257)
Interesting you mention the SSC warrants and their expiration date. I have a notation in my ephemeris for May of '99 of a possible "silver boom or peak". Transiting Jupiter conjuncts NYSE Moon - always a vital Zodiacal point for silver activity - simple research will disclose the reliability of major aspects to this degree for bearing on the silver price. Extraneous factors may BLOW that lid on SSC in the time window between April and June of '99!

John Disney
(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:01 - ID#24135)
Glad you asked ...
for 2bro2b ..
The Cape is fine today .. we had 3 days of coldish
rain but today is a soft summer sunday .. I was fixing
up an area of the place where I had put a wall up ..
and put in eugenia trees .. added another lime and
lemon tree to the established lime and the lemon
there .. also two macademias .. and a veggie patch for
y2k with capsicums lots of lettuce aubergine tomatos
and a patch of passion fruit .. planted salvia
carnations and lupins along the wall with elysium
at the edges.. found 2 large chameleons yesterday but
today they had dissapeared .. swallows doves thrushes
butterflies .. slanting sunlight and the whish of the
breeze in the oaks and avocados .. it's a really nice

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:07 - ID#348257)
Frail Bonding
Think about it. The recent "flight to quality" behind the Us Treasury bond runup was a flow of frightened money going to the perceived "most secure" asset in the world - the IOU's of the globe's LARGEST debtor, which still cannot balance its budget ( Social Security funds - the retirement pension of its citizens - being mortgaged to paper over the deficit. The chronic and excessive issuance of debt has usurped the role of gold as a safe haven asset and created a fiat refuge. Treasury Bonds are the only asset that can guarantee repayment inasmuch as the issuer controls ( A ) the pocketbooks of its citizens through enforced confiscatory slavery, and ( B ) the presses and plates which print the "money." What a perversity. Hair of the dog, anyone?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:07 - ID#200235)
Did you receive an answer from Polarbear about the proxy for Rangy?

Also, the current value of $ 873 cents.............. what does that mean, is that in SA$ or UD$.

Thanks in advance for any information you have.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:14 - ID#343449)


you little dare you tug on the
cape...fnrt!...your brothers romulus and remus are calling.....
regulus....come out into the light!!! we hear the chicken being choked....AAAAAAWWWWWWWKKKKKKKKK...
let him rest....and you your strength for
future efforts at kitco..or try stepping in one of the
footprints left by your peers......quite a deep hole...
and one that you could never crawl out of...

oh little one with vienna sausage breath--no offense fred in vienna---
take care when casting may need to be
aspirated when the fur stops flying, as your skin is attached...

back to the hole from whence fartful oozed.......the gloves are off...

fartful you are relegated to weine-wacker status tambien....let
no grass grow between your hooves..the machine is in motion......
you turned the key......another has decided to drive...

don't be afraid of the lawnmower blade....enough is enough.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:18 - ID#258195)
Valuing Gold independent of fiat currencies
Here are the Dabchick Gold Index figures ( calculated from the London Bullion Market figures as supplied to the F.T. by N.M.Rothschild ) for the past week. All figures refer to the London close.
These figures are intended to show changes in the True Value of Gold relative to its value in January 1982. Because these values are independent of debased fiat paper currencies, they are also independent of the inflation caused to all other prices by governments that indulge in currency debasement.
Date--- | Close | High | Low |
02 Nov | 67.27 | 67.47 | 67.27 |
03 Nov | 66.54 | 66.95 | 66.47 |
04 Nov | 67.37 | 67.38 | 67.03 |
05 Nov | 67.47 | 67.46 | 67.21 |
06 Nov | 68.12 | 68.41 | 68.05 |
( Basis : Jan 1982 = 100 )
On Friday ( yesterday ) the Index regained the safety of the 68 - 70 trading range, and it did so in a way that gives me grounds for optimism. On Tuesday the Dabchick Gold Index gapped down, and on Wednesday it gapped back up again, leaving behind it a clearcut one - day island.
Furthermore, after consolidating on Thursday, the Index gapped up once again into the 68 - 70 safety zone. This second gap up mirrors another gap down made on Monday, thus creating a Monday to Thursday 4-day island which contains within it the 1-day Tuesday island.
This pattern is beginning to look very similar to the previous major low of Aug-Sept 1992. On that occasion there was also a 1-day island at the bottom ( touching 66.7 and closing at 66.9 on 2nd Sept 1992 ) . That 1-day island in 1992 was contained within an 11-day island with the gaps at 68.2 . Those two islands were, in turn, contained within a 1-month island with the gaps at 69.5.
For the action of the last 4 weeks to become completely similar to 1992's bottom we now need to see this week's two islands contained within a 4 - to - 5 week island which would be made by a gap up at 70.4 Let's hope it happens next week.
Please note also that on Weds,Thurs and Fri this week the True Value of Gold was NOT depressed by the rising dollar. I think this may be contrary to the PPT's wishes.

It remains my humble opinion, however ( and this in itself would be a buy signal if MHO is confounded ! ) that the end of an 18-year bear market in Gold should be far more dramatic than what we've seen so far. For that to happen the Dabchick Index may first have to go to 65.0 , but as I said last week if it finds support above 65 ( as it has this week ) and then turns up strongly, this chart will be making a strong buy signal.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:20 - ID#347457)
@Gartner Report: Y2K Too Shall Pass
Here goes another Y2K prediction from Gartner. Mind you that this is the same group predicting "no way we will get through this" not too long time ago ( and still claim that Europe is doomed ) . Well, at that time the paycheck came from different pocket, now the bill is paid by bankers, and ( my opinion ) looking for a future lucrative revenues from "expert testimonies" in Y2K lawsuits.
However, I agree a lot with their advice to general public, I disagree of how fast we will fix failures in post Y2K timeframe.

Gartner Report: Y2K Too Shall Pass
The GartnerGroup is gunning for Mad Max. Or at least the world-gone-mad
mentality this movie brings to mind. Clearly distressed by Y2K "gloom
and doom" sayers and the extreme measures some advocate in response, the
company is now trying to pour oil on troubled millennial waters. Or as
one of its leading consultants says, "pour oil on the hysteria."

And perhaps rid the world of a little snakeoil in the process?

The GartnerGroup is known more for its consulting work with private
clients than missionary work with average citizens. But the company
recently released a public report intended to help just plain folks cope
with the stress of a digitally dysfunctional world.

The report is certainly designed to help cooler heads prevail. While
survivalists may urge mountain retreats or mounds of freeze dried
edibles, the Gartner Group seemingly predicts that the Year 2000
rollover will be a few days spent with relatively minor techno troubles.
Troubles more of "gol dang it" than Gotterdammerung variety. And
certainly not modern society's one-way ticket ride to Cyberia.

At least that's certainly the way one of the report's authors sees it.
"We don't need a run on the banks due to hysteria and panic," says
GartnerGroup Vice President and Director of Research Jim Cassell. The
analyst says his firm is working with the American Banking Association
to head off such a possibility. He says the ABA is very concerned about
people needlessly withdrawing large sums in the run up to the rollover.
The collective cashing of one month's paycheck, Cassell says, would
empty the national till. "There is not enough physical money," he says.

"Withdrawing funds from banks or liquidating investments is not
warranted...GartnerGroup assumes most enterprises will address
mission-critical systems so that 90 percent of the systems that do fail
will be corrected within three days," the new report notes. Seventy
percent will be back in two days, it predicts.

Cassell compares the situation to a hurricane. Pay attention, be
prepared, but do not be blown away by fear and doubt. A stampede to the
boonies isn't on Gartner's to-do list either. Citing the "incredible
hysteria" he hears, Cassell encourages people to look at the situation
in perspective and separate panic from practicality. Cassell says he
lives in Florida, where the "worst day is 60 degrees. I'm not worried
about buying a space heater," he says.

So what is a person to do to prepare for a few days of technologically
stormy weather? Cassell suggests that like his Florida example,
physical location will go a long way to determining what steps are
necessary. Some moves, however, seem universal. Cassell says having
the equivalent of two-weeks salary on hand is not a bad idea. And a
five-day contingency supply of medications, fuel and food are good too.

"Individuals should prepare for limited duration, localized failures of
services and infrastructure rather than an apocalypse," the report
states, but warns, "The type and number of failures will vary
geographically and cannot really be predicted."

On the GartnerGroup's Personal Year 2000 Risk Assessment checklist are
insurance policy reviews, prescription refills, physical and dental
checkups, first-aid supplies, cellular phone backups, topped off
gasoline and home heating oil tanks, early driver's license renewals,
and stocked water. "The most critical factors for most people are
clearly the availability of telephone service and electric power," the
report notes, citing the vulnerability of automated teller machines,
emergency services, credit cards, electronic funds transfer and the

Gartner's optimistic view is not necessarily global. "In many cases
there is no effective way for a non-U.S. person to meaningfully assess
the risk posed by such things as infrastructure and financial services,"
the report observes. "Few countries have as rigorous reporting
requirements as the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission ( SEC ) , and
individuals have no leverage on enterprises such as insurance and
utility companies. Such enterprises generally do not provide specific
responses to individuals." Listen to whatever public pronouncements are
available, then take a conservative position, the report suggests.

Back in the U.S., Cassell says institutions like the SEC and the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation will help people weather the storm. But
it won't be the kind of storm that floods cities or blows down
buildings. "You may not get [some] products or services for five days.
It will be inconvenient, disruptive, but it's not the end of the world,"
he notes.

At least not for individuals. Companies, according to Cassell, could be
a different story. Some of these, he says, will be "devastated" by
lawsuits and other problems. Of course the economic consequences of
such impacts could mean more than a blinking VCR to many American
households. But even a lost job or depressed stock price isn't the end
of times.

So put away the sackcloth and hair shirts for now. Instead, prepare for
the purely practical. Like checking that investment companies are
providing adequate status information. That insurance policies cover
date related physical damage. That health concerns are tended to ahead
of time. And that neighbors are covered too.

"People should not ask 'How can I survive the century boundary?' They
should ask 'How can my neighborhood and I survive the century boundary?'
People should volunteer to help the elderly or sick, and should also
volunteer their services to their local, city or town governments," the
report advises.

The free report is available at

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:20 - ID#258195)
Friday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates and Weekly Summary
For Fri 06 Nov calculated from data published in today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean Gold LR------4.57---------------4.14-------------3.79-----------------3.29
Gold Lease Rate---0.71---------------1.17-------------1.27-----------------1.62
( Change ) ---- ( + 0.01 ) -------- ( - 0.03 ) ------- ( + 0.04 ) ----------- ( - 0.03 )

Silver Lend Rate----3.95--------------3.25--------------2.35-----------------2.10
Silver Lease Rate---1.33--------------2.06--------------2.71-----------------2.81
( Change ) ------ ( - 0.15 ) -------- ( - 0.15 ) ------- ( - 0.15 ) ----------- ( - 0.10 )
Lease Rate equals LIBOR minus Lending Rate
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild .
The lines labelled ( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.
Weekly Summary of Gold and Silver Lease Rates
Monday 02nd Nov to Friday 06th Nov
Period --- | Mon,,,,,,,Tues,,,,,,,Weds,,,,,,,Thurs,,,,,,,Fri
1-Month- | 0.58,,,,,,,0.59,,,,,,,,0.70,,,,,,,,,,0.70,,,,,,,,0.71
3-Month - | 1.24,,,,,,,1.16,,,,,,,,1.20,,,,,,,,,,1.20,,,,,,,,1.17
6-Month - | 1.41,,,,,,,1.38,,,,,,,,1.34,,,,,,,,,,1.31,,,,,,,,1.27
12-Month| 1.76,,,,,,,1.74,,,,,,,,1.72,,,,,,,,,,1.65,,,,,,,,1.62
Period --- | Mon,,,,,,,Tues,,,,,,,Weds,,,,,,,Thurs,,,,,,,Fri
1-Month- | 2.05,,,,,,,1.58,,,,,,,,1.58,,,,,,,,,,1.48,,,,,,,,1.33
3-Month- | 2.85,,,,,,,2.31,,,,,,,,2.31,,,,,,,,,,2.21,,,,,,,,2.06
6-Month- | 3.56,,,,,,,3.11,,,,,,,,3.06,,,,,,,,,,2.86,,,,,,,,2.71
12-Month| 3.59,,,,,,,3.16,,,,,,,,3.01,,,,,,,,,,2.91,,,,,,,,2.81
No Comment

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:26 - ID#147201)
CompGeek re Euro/Y2K
Your comments re this pending disaster are the most appropriate I have seen. SDRer has many posts about the internal regulations pertinent to implementation of the Euro. If you have read any of these, you don't have to worry about the above. That's because there is no way today's civilization can clearly implement these regs. On top of this , what you have so clearly explained is a time bomb with an explicit moment of explosion. The Euro is a dead duck. The funeral is the time of implementation. It may be buried alive, but I can see no possibility of resurrection. The consequence of the Euro's still birth is hard to conceive, but there are 2 possibilities- 1 ) complete international finacial confusion or 2 ) worlwide martial law at best. What do you think??

Steve in TO
(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:32 - ID#209265)
Greenstone, Re: your 4:05
What the author didn't mention in his article was the competition between the BIS and IMF. I agree with the sentiment that the Bank of Japan is onside with the BIS and will oppose IMF initiatives. The rest of Eastern Asia may follow.

The IMF has left a bad taste in the mouth of the Asians, and so we may find the world polarizing into a US/EU axis and a Swiss, Japanese, Korean, SE Asian axis, each of whom will be trying to influence the world according to their views. Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Swiss hold out & surviv again. After all, in 3,000 years only two nations have managed to defeat them.

- Steve

Steve in TO
(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:38 - ID#209265)
Rhody - thank you for looking . . .
into the lease rate gap. It is analagous to the premium gap that opens up in S&P futures contracts when the PPT goes to work.

Please let us know what you find out.

- Steve

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:43 - ID#258142)
Mike K - EURO & Y2K in 12 months
Some of big companies here are ready now. For example, several days ago I received software upgrade from my bank - it is both EURO-enabled and Y2K compliant - at least that is what they say. I am free to make transactions in EUROs from Jan 1, 1999.
Dutch CB controls all banks on both issues - EURO and Y2K. Many companies develop new software now. The other important issue, probably not so well known outside EMU - each company can decide when to migrate to EURO. It can be any date starting from Jan 1, 1999 till Jan 1, 2002. So if some company is not ready for EURO, it can decide to wait for year or more. In fact, all shops, bars, etc. - all businesses who work with cash simply can not convert all its activities to EURO because there is no cash yet - it will be brought in circulation in 2002 only. So, there is no rush with EURO
Some big companies already announced that they will go for EURO now and prefers to have all transactions in EURO starting from Jan 1999. That force suppliers to accept EURO earlier, not only as payment currency, but also when preparing price-lists, offers, etc. That means that "EURO-ready" businesses will have some advantages.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:51 - ID#284255)
Could I please get the lease rates for gold and silver.
Between the 12th June 98 and 5th Oct 98

I have the data for 1, 3, 6 & 12 month lease rates prior to this.
And have collected your data since 5th Oct 98.

I'd just like to fill in the gap.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:52 - ID#401460)

"By the way, in today's Register ( OC's main newspaper ) there is a story about a 105 year old man in Europe ( Switzerland I think ) that was told to report to the local elementary school to start kindergarten. Turns out the local records have a two digit birth year."


(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:55 - ID#119358)
good day.O! I still haven't heard from NAV and proxy votes......I've a mind to vote no on all of them....just to see what happens....evidently, there are only twenty larger share holders ( I feel a little honery! ) ....they need 75% votes by their motions.
Wish I could help out...but I'm just another one who needs a little help from friends...salud!!!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 10:59 - ID#153110)
Gold IS merely an artifact of government policy. Isn't everything ? POG is an official act. Hasn't it been continuously from 1933 ? The gold market is deception derived from deception. What happens is scripted and rehearsed ahead of time and presented like a play to the world audience. It's a Moon Walk. The pertinent question is whether the scriptwriter is in the BIS or in Washington.

We are way beyond cycles.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:01 - ID#119358)
the weeds get whacked! whew y WoW..........! being tireless in houston.

salud to ya.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:03 - ID#31868)
HighRise, Namaste' gulp and a puff to are a few more Y2K not so funnies...
COMPUTERS have already been affected by the date-change problem.

In Holland, motorists with newly issued bank cards with expiry dates of 00 had them rejected at petrol stations.

A Swedish woman received a letter informing her of the various schools on offer when she reached 10. She was, in fact, born in 1890.

A tin of corned beef from Marks & Spencer was rejected on the ground that the food was 96 years out of date.

A date roll-over check on a power station led to its shut-down within 20 seconds. The fault was traced to a flue stack temperature sensor that was programmed to minimise fluctuations over time, using the date to make calculations.

A computer clock set to 2000 at Chrysler Motors in America shut down the security system and refused to let staff out.

A sewage treatment plant in America found that in 2000, valve-control systems would have released untreated sewage into the rivers.

During a test in an American nuclear power station, the device that controlled the depth of the fuel rod in the core began to oscillate because the air-conditioning system in the control room failed and the temperature rose.

America's Social Security Administration tried to set up a payment schedule that ran beyond the end of the present century. However, the computer system could not process it.

For almost six months last year, Visa had to stop issuing cards with expiry dates in 2000 for fear that they would be rejected.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:04 - ID#45173)
Tried linking a poll to and got the error:

The URL to your web site must start with HTTP:// You supplied 'FTP://FTP.KITCOMM.COM/PUB/DISCUSSION'

Anyone figure this out yet?


(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:06 - ID#413175)

Consiracy theorists, where are you when we need you? Mr. Greenspan was cut off, remember? There /must/ be something sinister there! What was he up to that "they" had to put a stop to?

Now when he was cut off he was laying out the history of how we had arrived at this present instability, right? He must have been leading up to /something/, he would not be simply telling us what we already knew. Fellow golf bugs, this must be what he was about to say: "As you can see from the foregoing, the present world currency system is not working. Currencies not anchored to something tangible inevitably lead to chaos the beginnings of which we have been experiencing for the last year. The United States' dollar has become the world's reserve but retains that status today only by default since the United States is the world's worst debtor and that situation worsens monthly and is without prospect of remediation. As confidence in that last insturment of stability ultimately becomes eroded, the world's currency system faces an utter and complete catasrophe the consequences of which are unthinkable. I have therefore given instructions this morning which will lead to the reestablishment of the United States' dollar as a convertable currency based upon gold."

With this prospect in mind for next week everybody, enjoy the holiday!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:08 - ID#284255)
You may consider yourself Politically Incorrect if...........
1. Your new girlfriend comes over for the first time and when she walks into the living room, the first thing that she sees is your CHL regulation Man sized target with 50 holes in the chest area.

2.Your dog has more Emergency Rations than 95% of the U.S. population.

3.Your the first person at the gun range on Dec 26th to check out your new toys.
( and they know you there by your first name )

4. The local supermarket manager knows to go ahead and open up the back dock doors when he sees you on a shopping trip.

5. Your home furnishings include contemporary "art deco" coffee and end tables by Ozarka, Sparklets and Rain Fresh .

6. Your home and property are more secure and better lit than Fort Knox or Area 51.

7. All the local restaurants know to save you all their 5 gallon buckets on Mondays and Thursdays.

8. None of your vehicles have electronic ignition or pollution control.

9.You know exactly what the term Y2K stands for and you also know exactly how many days are left until Dec 31, 1999.

10. The neighborhood association makes an appointment before dropping off the monthly newsletter.

11.You know the tail numbers of all the Helicopters in your area.

12.Your local city government hold an election in which only 14% of the population shows up, and your surprised that the turnout is so good.

13.The magazines on your art deco coffee table include American Survival Guide, Guns and Ammo, Soldier of Fortune, American Rifleman, Shotgun News and 4 -Wheeler.

14. The books on your end tables include Brigade Quartermasters , Majors Surplus, Paladin Press, CBR decontamination and TEOTWAWKI.

15. You welcome a "mild" El Nino storm because you know its going to fill you cistern.

16.The power fails in your local movie theater and you pull your mini mag from your belt and show yourself the way out.

17. You use your Gerber Tool to cut your steak at a fine dining establishment.

18.You ask every cashier that you run into if their computer systems are year 2000 compliant just to see their blank and confused expressions.

19. Your knife collection has its own footlocker.

20.When people ask about all those colorful maps on your walls, you tell them that you are planning a "Fishing Expedition".

21.You have the need to rent a Backhoe for a week WITHOUT the driver, but with a post hole digger attachment.

22.You can recognize the sound of a Generator from 4 blocks away, but you also know the brand, horsepower and the kilowatts per hour that it is putting out.

23.You have to kill a snake in your front yard, but then you skin it and eat it.

24. You open your freezer to stock some deer meat, but you have to remove all the batteries first.

25.You stock up on Kerosene and Firewood in 102 degree summer heat.

26.Your "homeschooled" children score in the 99 percentile on their SAT's.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:09 - ID#347457)
@HighRise on Y2K, etc.
HighRise, well, so what? Man may enjoy a company of childrens;- )
Seriously, without trying to downplay Y2K, this is not a bigger deal than all those silly things happening today ( e.g., calling dead people to military service or to pay taxes, one legal juristiction not having different records about offenders, releasing people from prison by mistake, and yes, loosing your oder in computerized system ) .
Again, without downplaying importance of Y2K ( I sweat on it for the last couple of years ) , we have increadible holes in our Information Systems, Y2K or not. Sometimes it makes me wonder how comes it still work :- (

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:10 - ID#147201)
Steve in TO your 10:32
When you throw this on top of SDRer's info and CompGeek's words, we have the best possible fight to disrupt any possible fix for the Euro/Y2K. Do you know anybody who can untangle this damn mess??

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:10 - ID#31868)
mozel, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya from the Island that is Long..and a long overdue
response to the post I have copied agreement is absolute and immutable...yup...uh huh...

Date: Thu Nov 05 1998 03:54
mozel ( @T1 ) ID#153110:
Copyright  1998 mozel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

The power of legal force may come solely from the barrel of a gun, but All Law is from scripture. As gold fixes worth as a unit of account, medium of exchange, and store of value, scripture fixes Law. When man's law flows from the barrel of a gun, it changes according to whose hands hold the gun. When man's law stands on the foundation of the Law revealed in scripture, its foundations are sure.

There is no gold in the atheist socialist's earthly utopia and man's law is no more fixed there than is the atheist's fiat currency.

So, the men who can say We hold these truths to be self-evident are men who have already accepted a higher authority than themselves as the source of knowledge of the Law of Nature and of Nature's God. This done not by contract but by unanimous declaration.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:16 - ID#219363)
Can't remember
How many tons of gold are there in the world ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:16 - ID#284255)
I just logged into Kitco's archives ok.
I used a FTP program to do it where you don't need to specify the http or ftp.

Bart has tidied the old archives up and currently there are only three files in this directory.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:18 - ID#119358)
hilarious.......politically incorrect and way ahead of the wave. muchas garcias ( cabo spelling ) y un GulpO y un PuffO to YA!!!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:21 - ID#23947)
Financial Panic of 1873
I have been reading "The Autobiography of Andrew Carnegie" and he makes a few referances to the Financial Panic of 1873.
Does anybody on this site know what casued the panic and where I might be able to find more information about it.
Thankyou in advance

Go Gold

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:25 - ID#31868)
wombat, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...this is a start in your quest...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:27 - ID#258142)
Kitco archives and other stuff
Here is the root:
If you click on it you may discover yoursef the rest. Sory, BArt, probably, Kitco will be overloaded soon

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:29 - ID#317193)
Morning read @ old times...mostly...
Again, suggest a read of Greenspeak last one previous he mentioned CB's will contol the price of gold...What is he telling us?

One of two things...don't know which.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:29 - ID#31868)
Envy, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...let the page load on this site...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:29 - ID#258142)
Add on
Sorry, it does not give a link, so type in "Location" and press enter

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:32 - ID#343449)

the question is no longer is when...
when will it begin? the real show....not the
tail-gate parties currently under-way............

this is also known.....the when that is..........

the real party will begin BEFORE klinton leaves
the yellow house.....before....this means less
than 14 months before the well laid plans of
the hate-your-neighbor-for-lunch-bunch launches
their attacks.....

war on several fronts.....with the inimatable world-cop
called to stop....the us is snaggle-toothed........
our enemies fangs, razor sharp and ready to rend
flesh from bone......the west will see MAJOR CHAOS
form of military actions against the us abroad, and her allies....

count me in..chaos and flux tambien...where's the mouthy ones....
the mouth monitor is back........


(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:34 - ID#119358)
@T#1.........what's with this "000".......
on your e.mails? one "O" is omnipotent....I pall at the thought of three. fearful and awesome. yup, burnin' cd's this morn....lasers rule, no doubt! Howzabout dat pic'o'me y bb? G&P!, always.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:44 - ID#411112)
sharfin...LOL....I know a lot of these people :-) never laughed so hard for so long..its a keeper .


(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:45 - ID#219363)
Thank you for both of those links, the one with gold facts, as well as the one describing the events of Black Friday in the 1800's. Not so gentle reminder that for paper to have value, it must have a buyer, panic only being the day all the buyers stayed home and all the sellers showed up. In the current equities markets, if we were to correct quickly off this recent rally, will the buyers be there ? Will there be a large number of people who think this is the top, that this is the highest level the equities will be at in the near future ? Or will there be enough buyers who believe that the equities will see even higher levels ? That's all there is: buyers vs sellers. The shares are still there on the exchanges, the situations stay the same, the dividends rise and fall slightly, but when it's all said and done the value of an equity is what the market will pay for it. Go gold.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:53 - ID#237299)
Sharfin: @ your 1:52 A.M.
For a week or so it has also looked to me to be heading higher. The *ekg looking* spikes have a certain regularity to them.

If one could lay a ruler on the points it aims at +30! Ah, too bad straight-edges can't be relied upon or we'd all be rich. Can your swing chart be altered to plug in a hypothetical future market and project what the closings would look like to match this straight line? If nothing else it would give the outer limits of "irrational exuberance". ;- )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:54 - ID#31868)
STUDIO_R, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...burnin CD.s eh...lucky Devil...yup
those aren't zeroes, they represent oz', silver and platinum, yup...the financial trilogy of wealth and REAL money in a world of jack's ass social re-order-ers and UN-American fiat garbage empty promise dollars as per the Clintler dirtbag in OUR White House...who's lips would burn off his face and drop to the ground in ashes if he ever spoke a truth of any kind...

Speaking of CDs...I am listening to the following...excellent...yup...

Pale Sun
Crescent Moon

by the Cowboy Junkies

(Sat Nov 07 1998 11:57 - ID#31868)
PS-the who's was intentional...this being stated for the linguists among us who despair
at such poor language...the point being that Clintler is a puppet...plain and simple...whose lips are on his face? as it is obvious that he is dancing to a tune not of his making...nope...traitors never do...he was interned and turned a very long time ago...

But I guess Americans won't figure that out until the body bags really start to pile up...yup...uh huh...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:01 - ID#31868)
Envy, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...glad to be of service...and your statement
"The shares are still there on the exchanges, the situations stay the same, the dividends rise and fall slightly, but when it's all said and done the value of an equity is what the market will pay for it."

is completely mis-understood and disregarded by the uninitiated which own all that paper...

Oh my darlin, Oh my darlin, OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh my darlin paradigm...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:10 - ID#423313)
Negative interest rates...
I'm sure someone else has posted this but since I didn't see it...

Japan has been running negative interest rates on their "treasuries."

Sharefin--woulda been funny if it weren't so true.

Is there anyone here who believes in the apocalypse that doesn't plan on facing it with an AR-15 or 30.06 ( besides me ) ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:11 - ID#31868) interesting read...
Lars Eighner, Travels with Lizbeth St.Martins Press 1993

As for public assistance, it is like credit - easier to get if you have had it before. That you have qualified for one sort of benefit is often taken as evidence that you are eligible for another. Documents from one agency are accepted as proof of need at another agency. But as I had never received any form of public assistance before, I had no documents. When I was asked to provide documents to prove I had no income, I could not do so. I still do not know how to prove lack of income. ( 4 )
In Texas a person cannot qualify for food stamps unless he or she does not really need them. A person who truly needs food stamps cannot be eligible to receive them. To get food stamps a person must have all to him  or herself - a functioning kitchen; if the kitchen is shared, then all who share the kitchen must, as a group, qualify for food stamps. To prove that you have the kitchen, you must have a rent receipt, which opens the question of where you got the money to pay the rent. If you cannot pay the rent then you must have gotten a written statement from the landlord that he allows you to live rent free, which statement the landlord will not give you if he is properly advised, because it prejudices his case in the event he wants to collect back rent or to evict you for nonpayment.
If someone in the household has a job and so the rent is somehow paid, then the employed person must get a statement from his employer that the amounts shown on the stubs of the pay check are in fact correct and that the employee is not paid more. With Texas employees, this will endanger the job of any employee who asks for such a statement. Moreover, there is the problem of proving that the household members who have no income have no income. A person who has a slight income can get documents to show that it is slight, but a person with no income has no employer to provide a statement that no wages are paid.
Anyone who happened to have a place with a kitchen and yet had not the money to buy food would most logically do one of two things: He would find a cheaper place without a kitchen - thereby becoming ineligible for food stamps - or he would take in a roommate to help pay the rent - again making the household ineligible for food stamps unless the roommate was willing to subject every aspect of his finances to scrutiny and to ask everyone with whom he does business to attest to his poverty. People who do get food stamps are people who can afford to have a kitchen to themselves, or in other words, people who do not really need public assistance to feed themselves. People who cannot pay rent, or who cannot pay enough rent to have a kitchen to themselves - in other words, the people who really need food stamps - are ineligible to receive them.
These are just a few of them immediate implications of one of the many requirements for food stamp eligibility. There are of course many other requirements and regulations so that virtually no honest applicant is qualified for food stamps. People do get them, but only when they lie and some social worker decides arbitrarily not to look too closely at the application.
 
The purpose of welfare systems is not to help the poor people. If the object were to help poor people, then that would be most surely done by giving money to poor people. But that is not the idea, as out tax code proves. If you give twenty dollars to someone on the street, there is not a way in the world you can deduct the donation from your taxes. To claim a deduction you must give money to an organization that employs clerks and administrators and social workers and that, more than likely, puts nothing material into the hands of the poor, or if it does provide some material benefit, those benefits are not as much as a dime to the dollar of the original donation. When the agency makes an accounting of the good it has done the poor, it will count the money it spent on paying social workers to hold the hands of the poor the same as money, if any, spent on bread. The purpose of welfare systems is to provide jobs for social workers and bureaucrats  ( 99-100 ) .
Many times in our travels I have lost everything but the clothes I was wearing and Lizbeth. The things I find in Dumpsters, the love letters and rag dolls of so many lives, remind me of this lesson. Now I hardly pick up a thing without envisioning the time I will cast it aside. This I think is a healthy state of mind. Almost everything I have now has already been cast out at least once, proving that what I own is valueless to someone.
Anyway, I find my desire to grab for the gaudy bauble has been largely sated. I think this is an attitude I share with the very wealthy - we both know there is plenty more where what we have came from. Between us are the rat-race millions who nightly scavenge the cable channels looking for they know not what.
I am sorry for them. ( 125 )
One morning I slept a little later than usual and was much alarmed to wake to see a green Parks and Recreation Department vehicle jump a curb and drive into the park on the grass. I thought we were discovered, and of course we were. But the truck merely pulled into an inconspicuous spot, where the drivers fell asleep. The park, it turned out, was a favorite hideout for the city workers of various departments. Whole crews came to the park for three-or-four-hour picnics, and individuals often slept in their trucks through the whole workday. ( 128-9 )
Face it. The employees of public hospitals are, despite being doctors and nurses, public employees. Public employees run the postal service, the military, and United States foreign policy. I know very well that some dedicated and competent individuals can - rarely - be found in public employment. And I sympathize with them. But I know, and I think they know too, their valiant struggle against Chaos is doomed from the outset. ( 150-1 )
Austin is a liberated town and as good a place as any to be insane. ( 167 )
She talked nonsense constantly - anyone who has ridden a New York subway or the Hollywood bus in Los Angeles is likely to have heard this sort of talk, which mental-health workers call word salad. ( 170 )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:12 - ID#318142)
Gold Index numbers

I appreciate your contribution with your gold index, but your comments about gaping up and islands are only statistical. Because gold and currencies change slowly overnight around the world, your index should, too. Your gap reflects the price only when you measure it from London AM and PM prices. In other words, overnight the gap was traversed and covered and only noticed after London quoted the new value. Am I correct or am I missing something else?

I have been using a crude average between the yen and Dmark to give me the same general value of a very low price of gold. Today's price is lower than it seems because of the recent drop in the dollar to 116 yen.

I also think that the Dow/spot-gold ratio over 30 is another relatively important relationship for a historical comparison.

Thanks for your inputs.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:13 - ID#219363)
So lemme see, 88000 tons, or about a million troy ounces of gold in existence and held by the human folk. How many human folk are there, oh, here it is, 5 billion or so on the planet. Not enough gold for all them people. At least there's enough Treasury debt to go around, at 5.5 trillion dollars, that's about 1000$US in debt for every person on the planet. Woowoo! Swim in it folks. Got gold ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:18 - ID#219363)
88000 tons, what's that, 2000 pounds per ton, right ? or 176 million pounds, I think that's right. 12 troy oz to the pound, that's 2 billion troy oz by my math ( my math not being the benchmark for good math *grin* ) . So at 5 billion peoples, actually, that ain't too aweful bad, there is some gold for the masses.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:22 - ID#350194)
Envy - This line of reasoning was discussed here at length some time ago and I don't wish to repeat it all, but although I agree with your main point, your math seems to be terribly wrong as a quick calculation of 88,000 tons times 2,000 lbs/ton times 15 troy ounzes to lb seems to give me 2,640,000,000 ounzes. Correct?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:23 - ID#350194)
I see we're close now! :- )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:23 - ID#423313)
Envy and One who tolerates long islands, Namaste' and G&P
Absolutely correct about psychology determining value. Forget P/E ( which is near record ) , forget dividends, cash, etc. Those are just things people use to bolster their own opinions. And euphoric people have emotional crashes.

It doesn't matter whether the banks are ready for Y2K or not. What matters is the perception of the sheople. It doesn't take much of a run to close a bank ( less than 5% of the deposits need to be demanded ) . And smart money always moves first. So the sheople will run after the blood suckers have already shifted their deposits to something more tangible. Got gold!? I see possible y2k collapse, not from comp systems, but from sheople shycology.

BTW-In the spirit of full disclosure, my perspective is somewhat tainted by a graduate education in mental health. ( But I'm still an expert shot with an M16 A1&A2 ( don't like the short barrel on the A3 ) , Sig 9mm, Barreta ( sp? ) .45, and most .22s-do alright on the Ak47, but the nose always floats on me ) .

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:30 - ID#219363)
Yeah, dag these HP postfix calculators, common sense kicked in after the submit button. *grin*

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:30 - ID#45173)
Thanks for the info. I was referring to Bart's post:

" is the service we used to generate the real-time voting polls. It's really really simple for anyone to create a poll and put it on the net. Feel free to invent a poll for our group if you think it could be a useful tool for improving this site. When possible, I will initiate any changes that a strong majority desires. So if you think you have a good idea, put it to the test. If you don't have a website to host your poll, upload it to our ftp server at Put the link to your poll in one of your posts. All this can be done without any involvement from our side."

I tried this and could not get to accept the ftp URL. It's looking for a URL that starts with HTTP. Any ideas?


(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:33 - ID#243250)
Good morning from the snow covered Canadian I remember those brisk November London days during my time of continual international travel. Thankyou for the Dabchick Gold Index ( DGI ) as mentioned before it's a valuable diagnostic tool; so please keep up the good work with your valued contribution to this page. It is on target and thought provoking. Also it is a nice break from the endless chatter of guns, grub,God and why too kay. I look forward to next Sat. morning....regards... or as our native north american brother would say standing on some basketball players head looking sideways while trying to see backwards over a crowd of yada,yada,yada ( :+ ) )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:43 - ID#318142)

As much as I don't like to disagree with you, your comments about gold manipulation kicked my kneecap.

The POG, if manipulated, must still be changed by actual buying and selling somewhere with real cash ( even fiat money ) . It is obvious to me that the many gold markets around the world are somewhat independent as they don't always agree, and change individually. The POG changes as buyers and sellers interact. For the manipulators to move the market, they have to use real cash or real credit, which must be eventually backed up with a real trade or else someone else ( hedge fund, RJ, Glenn, John Disney? ) will come into the market to take advantage of the mismatch.

The world is full of arbitragers, of which I am one on a very, very small scale.

The only way gold is being manipulated now is perhaps by a large amount of real selling based on CB assets being borrowed and sold short by someone. If this is the case, then these shorts must be covered at a later date and will at that time cause the market to skyrocket. I really don't care as long as I can predict the correct trend direction when it happens. Until then I am cautious about picking a bottom, since it has already cost me.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 12:56 - ID#402183)
Amount of gold....

The amount of gold mined to date is on the order of 1.1 billion oz. Newmont, Anglo, Barrick, et al. each take only about 5-12 weeks to add another 1 million oz. to the total.

BTW, here's a techno question: When I click on a submittal to read it in its entirety, is it possible to return to where that comment was in the collection of submittals. I hit the BACK button and always return to the top of the scroll. Minor hassle, but still a hassle.

Carpe aurum et obitus ad tructa,


(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:00 - ID#402183)

My memory is failing. That 1.1 billion may be the fgure for oz held by central banks. I'll check up on this....

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:06 - ID#350194)
@cherokee, El Nino, Chaos and Yellow Edible Golds
cherokee - I notice that you and chaos are up and about today. Remember all the agricultural chaos that you had predicted for 1998 which didn't come to pass? More on that in a sec. But first let's just imagine for a nano-sec that, like Puetz's 1997-98 financial collapse, and your 1998 agricultural chaos, this Clinton prediction also is premature. In otherwords they hold it together to the bitter end. THEN what options are the new White House rulers left with ( if indeed they are not still the same rulers in sheeps clothing? ) . THAT may be the exact moment of ( controlled ) chaos leaping forth.
Now - back to the forces that man cannot control - Nature. The after effects of El Nino lead to an extremely pleasant summer and mild fall, however it also helped produce extremely dry weather in my part of the continent, and, I believe, occurrences of floods all over Europe in the last couple of years up to and including last week. NEXT year 1999 is the year that we may experience the same devastating-type drought which hit the NA breadbasket in the 30's. The extreme lack of rain in S.Ontario ( the northern extension of your corn belt ) , has left wells at or near record low levels for this time of year ( and, I'm assuming, elsewhere in the mid-west ) . Combine this with ANY type of low percipitation winter/spring weather this side of the Rockies and look out! If we experience EITHER a bitter cold winter with little snow OR a mild winter with snow and rain that again rapidly evaporates, we will be left with extremely low water tables next Spring/Summer. Grains will soar.
Carpe Diem!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:06 - ID#343259)
Why too kay
@wert- I apologize for y2k posting. I try not to post too much on why-too-kay here, or anywhere. No one really wants a steady diet of it. I used to have a mailing list I sent out to friends. I stopped. Paul Revere has ridden. Those who are awake will prepare. If someone asks me to comment though, I'll try my best to accomodate, usually on a weekend. But, the past 2 weeks haven't been that exciting on the gold front either. :- )
@chas- I'm afraid that the extrapolation of my understanding of computer systems to resultant world chaos would be of little value. Humankind seems resiliant. But, in my 34 years of Computer systems design experience, I would bet against any large computer project coming in on time. If the government is involved, I'd raise my odds against. If the deadline can't be moved, well, its like writing gold calls if you control the market.
@miro- Gartner Group. Well, whenever I see those words, my eyes glaze over, and I don't bother to read the rest. What they say has never been of significance to me. I perceive them as the "spin doctor" of the computer sector. Just about as meaningful to me as a "Parade Magazine Poll" ( a sunday paper insert appealing to the common denominator on the intellectual chart )
@sharfin- Only 10069 hours left. Do I get partial credit for political incorrectness?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:06 - ID#413156)
@Tolerant 1
My Grandmother is turning in her grave because of your ill-conceived remarks. Now lets see if my grandmother was Jewish and I made some kind remarks towards F* Me thinks you would be in deep --------

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:14 - ID#147201)
mozel re manipulation
Can you straighten out Larryn? CB's, US Treasury, Fed and any foreign suckups involved. Thanx, Charlie

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:25 - ID#284255)
Politically Incorrect
Seems everyone's in on this.
A trend to suit these markets?

If it's going to get up and hit the 30's
Then this rally's just going to keep on steaming on.

The swing is accumulation/distribution.
Normally in a bull market this oscillator starts to turn down
About half way through the upleg
As we get distribution from the strong hands to the weak.

That would give the dow lots more legs.
But I have a belief that we aren't in a bull but a bear.
I dread the thought of what we'll see when we roll over the top of the swing and start downhill.

We're either going to the moon from which we'll fall hard.
Or we're only a short period away from falling hard.

I'd guess that there's some more to go on the upside
What with the swing breaking higher.
When it crosses over soon
Then we'll see the true mettle of this market.
If the bears come out to play
Then it's going to be a long way down to the next bottom.
All IMHO of course.

Here's a poll I just created on Kitco's archives.
I'll put a link to it at the top of my webpage if it works.

I had to take the html code and save it as a htm file which I then downloaded from my PC to Bart's archive.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:27 - ID#335190)
wombat This information may help ( Control Central is likely the cause EH!)
Date: Sat Nov 07 1998 11:21......wombat ( Financial Panic of 1873 )

"Financial Panic of 1873. Does anybody on this site know what casued the panic"

1873... The Fourth Coinage Act passed by Congress February 12 makes gold the sole U.S. monetary standard establishes the Bureau of the Mint, places all mint and assay office activities under control of the new Treasury Department bureau, stops coinage of 412.5 grain silver dollars, and authorizes only 420-grain trade dollars for export. The "Act inadvertently makes trade dollars legal tender in amounts up to $5, but a joint resolution of Congress in late July 1876 will deprive the trade dollar of its legal status ( Bland-Allison Act, 1878 )

1873.... Demonitization of silver comes admidst new silver discoveries in Nevada. The new Bonanza vien February 5 in the Panamint Mountains and it is the biggest silver strike since the Comstock Lode of 1859.

1873.... The Comstock Lode has yielded more than $120 million in silver, $80 million in gold. ( The millionaire miner named John Percival Jones has become a U.S. Senator from Nevada ) The U.S. silver yield reaches $36 million for the year, up from $157,000 in 1860, and will continue to mount but gold production is declining from its 1854 peak.

1873.... "The country is fast becoming filled with gigantic corporations wielding and controlling immense aggregations of money and thereby commanding great influuence and power, " reports a congressional investigating committee: " It is notorious in many state legislatures that these influences are often controlling"

1873... Financial panic strikes Vienna in May and soon spreads to other European money centers.

1873... Germany adopts mark coinage.

1873... Britain's "golden age" comes to an end after 23 years as Germany and the United States challenge British Industrial preeminence.

1873... European investors withdraw capital from the United States, the Wall Street banking house Jay Cooke & Co. that has been financial agent for the Northern Pacific Railway fails September 18, Black Friday on the stock exchange sends prices tumbling September 19, the exchange closes for 10 days, and by year's end some 5,000 business firms have failed, millions of working Americans are obliged to depend on soup kitchens and other charities, and tens of thousands come close to starvation.

1873... The Greenback party organized by Midwesterners claims that a shortage of money is the cause of hard times. If the government will issue greenbacks until as much money is in circulation as in the boom times of 1865 the country will again enjoy prosperity, say the Greenbackers. ( They also demand control of the corporations, honesty in government, conservation of natural resources, and wide-scale reforms. )

1873.... The U.S. financial panic enables Henry Clay Frick to acquire most of the coal and coke land in the region of Connellsville, Pa., the price of coke will rise from $1 per ton to $5, Frick will gain control of 80 percent of the Connellsville coke output, and millionaire by age 30, will be offered a general managership bt steel magnate Andrew Carnegie.

1873...The financial panic deals a heavy blow to Ben Holladay, who acquired the Russell, Majors and Waddell transcontinental freight firm in 1862, made a fortune before selling out in 1866, and has sold his steamship interests to finance a new Oregon Central Railroad. His GERMAN BONDHOLDERS will force Holladay out of the company in 1876 and he will br financially ruined.


1871...Paris capitulates to German troops January 28, the French assembly accepts a peace traty March 1, a definitive traty is signed at Frankfurt May 10 and France agrees to cede Alsace and part of Lorraine, pay the Germans an indemnity of 5 billion francs, and permit an army of occupation to remain on French soil until the indemnity is paid.

1871...The Paris Commune established in March is defeated at the end of May in a "Bloody Week" that sees 20,000 to 30,000 Parisians killed at the barricades, a death toll exceeding that in the Reign of Terror of 1793 to 1794

1871... Napoleon III is formally deosed March 1 by the French assembly meeting at Bordeaux because a COMMUNIST uprising has taken over Paris, the assembly declares Napoleon "responsible for the ruin, invasion, and dismemberment of France " he is released from the castle of Wilhelmshohe near Cassel, where the GERMANS have held him prisoner, and retires to England.

1871...The Treaty of Washington signed May 8 refers settlement of the Canadian-U.S. border to the German emperor, refers settlement of claims against Britain for damage by the Confederate cruiser ALABAMA in the Civil War to an international commission at Geneva, and provides for partial settlement of a dispute in the North Atlantic fishery ( 1877 )

1871...Parliament legalizes British Labour Unions.

1871...The Indian Appropriation Act passed by Congress March 3 makes Indians WARDS of the federal Government and discontinues the practice of according full TREATY STATUS to agreementys made with tribal leaders. The ACT does not abrogate existing TREATIES but it FORBIDS recognition of Indian Tribes as NATIONS or INDEPENDENT powers.

wombat: I hope this information can help. Take Care.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:30 - ID#284255)
I've linked the Gold Poll just above the Kitco links.
Top left hand corner.

The poll is "What will the POG be by the end of this year?"

Who's game to vote.

"What will the POG be by the end of this year?"

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:31 - ID#318142)
your comment
I have a brother we call Chas and he was always trying to straighten me out. Are you him, or as our Mom would always correct us, are you he? Actually, I know you aren't because he thinks a CB is a car radio.
Awaiting Mozel's comments.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:38 - ID#31868)
Regulus, Namaste' gulp and a reference to your GM was an example of height
and certainly not a reflection on or of her...if I didn't like ya I would have said nothing...all these onion skin types should not even post...the old heat and the kitchen thing...and remember I never said I disagreed with what you said...

have a great more round...gulp and a puff...mind the stove eh...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:39 - ID#219363)
Trying to figure out the dynamics at a high level of the gold market. I know it's been discussed over and over at Kitco, and I'm late to the party *grin*. At it's most basic level the earth had all the gold. Mining companies mine it from the ground and it's injected into the primary markets. The mining companies have a lot of games they can play like forward sales, etc, and leaving the gold in the ground and thus on the books as an asset. In ground asset valuation seems to be determined by various miner specific tests, stuff to do with drilling results and all that kind of jazz. The miners probably engage in a form of speculation themselves, holding back amounts of gold to sell at higher prices, etc, kinda like oil companies do. Once gold is in the primary market there seem to be a number of different types of potential buyers. One of them is electronics and high technology, probably lump medicine in there too, as well as any manufacturing uses of the metal. All these guys are mostly buyers and don't sell into the market, so their demand is important. There are lots of dynamics involved in determining how much demand there is from these sectors, and technological changes seem to affect it quite a bit as well. Jewelers are also an outflow of the metal from the primary market as they obviously use gold in creating product. Didn't lump jewelers in with high-tech because jewelers in some way seem to also trade gold back into the markets, and funnel it into and out of secondary markets as well. Third out-flow of gold from the primary and secondary markets seem to be private investors who want to hedge against inflation and political and financial un-certainty. Private investors ( including corporate, etc ) seem to be a storage mechanism for gold as well in that when they buy gold, they don't "use it" for anything other than as a dependable store of value. The Treasury is involved as a buyer of gold from the primary markets and a seller of gold coins into the secondary markets, sort of a conduit for the metal where-in they act as a value added reseller by charging a premium on the coins for the trust and faith they add to it's weight, measure, and market liquidity. Central banks are a big customer of the primary markets and act as a storage mechanism, as well as buying and selling into the primary markets when it agrees with their position. Central banks appear to be the largest repository of the metal. And on the back-end of the high-technology, medical, and manufacturing side, that is, the actual users and consumers of the metal are the folks who deal in scrap and recover, who inject the metal back into the primary and secondary markets. Recovery of used gold has to result in a large amount of loss, but I haven't yet found out what percentage of gold is recovered from application. Anyway, I'm still figuring all this out, but that seems to be a bunch of it. Biggest threats to the private investor seem to be an increase in production from mining companies, increased sales from central banks and other private investors, a drop in demand from industries that use the metals, any technological discoveries or inventions that could serve to create new sources for gold ( magic widget that gets in from sea water, chemical processes, etc ) , decreases in jewelry sales, and new technologies that increase amounts of gold being recovered from application. Bullish signs for the metals markets seem to be a drop in production by miners, increases in application for the metal by industry, buying by central banks, un-certain financial and political situations or increases in inflation that lead to private investor buying, and increases in jewelry sales. Everything else seems to be derivatives piled on top of this market including futures, metal certificates, mining company shares, mining company bond offerings, options, etc, etc. Volatility on the metals markets seems to be somewhat high as a result of the relatively small amounts of metal involved leading to the potential for market manipulation by big money. That's my understanding of the game as it is played.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:46 - ID#284255)
What's in a Name?
Why Windows 2000 Means More Than You'd Guess

The decision to go with the name Windows 2000 means more than avoiding direct competition with Netware 5.0, though.
There's gold in that number 2000.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:47 - ID#238422)
Russia exporting wheat??????
Sounds like Norway exporting oranges.

By the way, Russian sales to Ukraine is also called
EXPORT, kind of real funny "export"'s like "exporting"
cars from Michigan to California...

Also, Russia imports much more than 1/3 of needed food, I bet
it's more than 1/2, at least...For example, Moscow "eats" food
which is 65-75% imported.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 13:52 - ID#258195)
Many thanks for your responses. I have just popped in to look quickly, and will respond fully tomorrow at 10:15. Regretfully must now rush off. My ISP is playing up too !!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:05 - ID#287279)
Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - President Clinton directed his government Saturday to find a way to close a legal loophole that allows speakers/journalists to express their ideas at public places with no questions asked. In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is emerging at seminars and radio talk shows because the First Amendment permits people to express their ideas without background checks. ``Some of these talk shows have become a heaven for criminals and hate speech mongers looking to sway people on a no-questions-asked basis,''Clinton said.
He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the loophole in the Bill of Rights and to prohibit any free speech without a background check.
``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check, no free speech, no exceptions,'' Clinton said.
In a fact sheet, the White House said that every week about 35 million
people regularly listen to an estimated 50 conservative radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy.
On Nov. 30, 1999 the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve speech licenses sales within minutes.
In addition, on Nov. 30, 1999 the law will be strengthened in two ways:
purchases of all speech licenses, not just political, will be subject to
Reno background checks as will Kinko's printing services, which are four
times as likely to involve a prohibited printed opinions.
Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of background checks conducted nationally will increase from 0 to between 10 and 12 million.
Unregulated speech are ``an open invitation to criminals and right wing
crazies,'' said Janet Reno, who chairs SpeechControl Inc.
The Clinton law was named after the President, who was hurt by verbal attacks first launched by radio personality Rush Limbaugh in 1992.
California and Maryland regulate ``hate speech'', said Reno. Florida voters passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the power to require a waiting period and a background check for speech at public places.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:06 - ID#284255)
POG Poll at the end of of this year?
So far eight votes and I just tested it to see if one person can do multiple votes.
I can't so there will be no price rigging.

No manipulation on the Kitco POG poll.^o-o^

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:25 - ID#31868)
Clintler is a dirtbag of the highest order...Dear Mr. Clintler...FU from the Island that is Long...
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ." --William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

[W]hen we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly.... [However, now] there's a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there's too much freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV's "Enough is Enough"

"If a President of the United States ever lied to the American people, he should resign." - Bill Clinton July, 1974

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:26 - ID#413156)
@Breeder's Cup
Breeders Cup Silverbulletday very easy way to double your money. Many Gold horses running today. Tolerant1  Yes and a big gulp to you for your open mind.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:35 - ID#31868)
I'll take Gold Land
in the sprint...yup...Ky...uh huh...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:36 - ID#187109)
regulus.......that was a joke right??
I didn't get it.

And I shall relay the hearty congrats from you to my fianc. She says TIA I am sure. How nice of you...I think ( ? )

onemorething - I don't recall talking of corn but it may behoove you to keep an eye on the grain train.........coming to a town near you.......choo-choo ( ! )

Are you mad that we don't talk of gold and silver 24-7?? Many things talked of here relate ( in some way or ANOTHER ) to markets and eventually to gold.

away....from this, this kitco


Sorry Bart.....He didn't mean to bite the hand that feeds him....uh uh.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:37 - ID#31868)
my horse needed a little more track,
sorta like real gold...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:39 - ID#153110)
@chas @larryn @POG
"For the manipulators to move the market, they have to use real cash or real credit,"

These terms of "real cash" and "real credit" are mysterious terms to me since there is nothing in existence except artificial cash and artificial credit, a few gold coins that are legal tender excepted.

To suppose POG not manipulated is, at the very least, is to ignore the published restrictions imposed on its monetary use by the Articles of the IMF.
To ignore the values published here by SDRer.
To ignore the testimony of Greenspan.

Anyone who cannot understand how artificial credit from fiat can be used through agents to control the price of a real thing should just review Kitco archives and the history of financial panics since 1860 for explanations and examples.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:42 - ID#347457)
@sharefin (POG Poll at the end of of this year?)
sure you can vote multiple times. I just did ( to test it ) . I am not going to post how so not too may lurkers cats multiple votes.
However, I don't see anywhere the prompt for this poll ( execept in your posting ;- ( ) Wher the heck did you find it?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:45 - ID#413156)
Breeders Cup Update Kona Gold paid $13.00 for show Coming soon Touch of gold

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:45 - ID#284255)
Your Banker, the Snitch
The Tampa Tribune
11/6/98 Dan Lynch

ALBANY, N.Y. - He works for a big banking outfit, and he's fairly high
up in the organization. He was telling me about a new proposed
federal banking regulation called the "Know Your Customer" program. The
thing had just hit his desk.

"I'm still waiting for my blood pressure to go down." he said.

"What does it do?" I asked.

"It'll require financial institutions to do six things - some of which
we already do. The first one is to determine the true identity of a bank's
customers. In a business situation, that's just common sense. If Dan
Lynch walks into XYZ Bank and says, 'I want to open a checking
account,' it's good, prudent business sense for XYZ Bank to deterine
that Dan Lynch is really Dan Lynch."

"Then it goes on. It's going to require a bank to determine a customer's
source of funds for transactions involving a bank, including the
types of instruments used and where the funds were derived or generated.

OK, Dan Lynch goes into the bank and opens an account. He
has a thousand bucks he wants to put in the account. Now, we're going to
ask Dan Lynch where the money came from."

This is about drug dealers," I said.

"Oh, yeah, the drug dealer thing is the whole basis for this. ... Then
we're going to determine the particular customer's normal and expected
transactions involving the bank. Based on a bunch of questions we're
going to ask you, we're going to find out how much money is
regularly going to go into your account, how much money is going to come
out, and when these transactions are going to take place."

"Then we're going to monitor all of your transactions...And, based on
this monitoring of your account, we're going to determine if any of
your transactions are unusual or suspicious. And if any of them appear
to be, we're going to report them to the appropriate authorities."

This banking executive is fairly horrified that the federal government
wants his bank to serve as a law enforcement arm of the federal
government - as snitches, essentially, who'll surely end up siccing the
feds on a whole squad of people who've done nothing wrong.

What's odd about this is that I have a friend who worked for years for a
large federal agency that I won't name. That agency has a strong
interest in how much money people put in bank accounts. If a suspected
drug dealer made a big deposit, then my friend and his fellow
computer geeks would go into the bank's computers, grab the money and
keep it until the suspected drug dealer decided to explain to the
authorities where he got the cash. The federal government grabs millions
of dollars in drug money that way every year.

Under this plan, though, the feds would end up with a whole new list of
names and bank accounts to watch.

My friend the banker says that this possibility makes his blood run cold.

How about yours?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:52 - ID#347457)
@Shek (Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed)
you have to admit that your post is kind of "creative manipulation"?
I bet that 50% of audience will not check what was really said ( see the link ) . Now, let me say that I don't agree with gun laws, I own a few guns, and I never liked ( or voted for ) Clinton. However, the way you turned the gun law into the free speech law, will start another "cybernet rumor". Not exactly something I agree with :- (

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:52 - ID#284255)
I created it at

And I have linked it at

Just above the Kitco links.

I hope you voted with the force.
I tried a few times but couldn't get the numbers up.
I guess I'll have to go back to being a PC wenie.

I also added one to my Y2k webpage.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:58 - ID#347457)
Oops, I see, I am catching on posts in descending order, and there I saw your post on creating "end of year gold poll" :- (

(Sat Nov 07 1998 14:58 - ID#31868)
I'll take DA HOSS in the next race...the government is like a drug addict that wants
to control his/her fix...they are slobs that want to run your lives...I say we vote them all into oblivion in the next for anything but a Dem or Repub...throw them all out... OUR country...not their's or the UN's...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:00 - ID#347457)
@CompGeek on Gartner Group
I completely agree with you

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:05 - ID#153102)
The only thing worth voting for is the abolition of corporations and the prohibition of legal represenation for hire.

Gusto Oro
(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:08 - ID#430260)
SHEK 14:05, Tolerant1 14:25, Sharefin 14:45...
I am aghast. President Clinton and his minions are obviously totalitarians. Who voted for this weasel? --Alan

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:11 - ID#413156)
Eb  I have no knowledge of your trading skills Only your humorous posts an obvious reason to make you number one in my hit list Back to the Breeders -Ebnotsocorny

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:18 - ID#413156)
Tolerant1-What a call No Silver or Gold horses entered in that race Thought Mike Sheller had a chance with that star horse Back to the Breeders

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:18 - ID#347457)
@sharefin (Your Banker, the Snitch)
Well, join the credit union. I gave up on banks a long time ago. My credit union never asked these stupid questins ( not even recently when my daughter joined ) . High fees, stupid rules, why to use them - I am getting all of what they have to offer under better conditions

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:21 - ID#31868)
A gulp and a puff to the great state of Kentucky...yEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAA!!!

Gusto Oro
(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:24 - ID#430260)
Agreed Miro, Credit Union is the way to go. Recent legislation has given them the go ahead to compete with banks on a broader scope by offering new services previously disallowed. --Alan

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:29 - ID#413156)
Tap to music deserves the win Back to the Breeders - Waiting for the Gold horses .

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:30 - ID#31868)
mozel, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya from the Island that is Long and lucky...I agree
with your last may seem radical to many but in all actuality it would return fairness and decency, bring expenditures down and overall make things far more simple.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:39 - ID#31868)
TOMISUE'S DELIGHT in the next race...fingers are crossed...
Gusto Oro, Namaste' gulp and a puff to is a sad state of affairs when those who govern would lie, cheat and steal and expect the populace to abide by rules that would make any decent man or woman choke on such invasions of privacy and last but not least, having to prove they are not a criminal when do what they wish with THEIR money...

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:46 - ID#348257)
Aaaannnnnnnd they're off....
Regulus - I once offered a notorious horse bettor the opportunity to analyze all the horoscopes of the horses running in a set of races to give an opinion. It was too much work for him to get the info ( birth data ) and damned if I have the time myself. Made the offer to a football betting buddy as well - he had to get the incorporation dates of the teams playing that season, but it was obviously too much trouble. I have enough work chasing down public corporations with juicy astrological configurations on the horizon, but I would certainly love to give it a try. I hear there ARE such things as parallel universes. I suppose horse racing, to me, is one of 'em. wife calls me a "gambler" anyhow ( I correct her with "speculator, dear" ) but what's in a word? A rose by any other name, eh?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:46 - ID#267298)

Anyone notice Exploration Mirandor ( Gold Stock, MIQ on Montreal exchange ) closed yesterday up .09 to .35 Cdn. Just about a month ago
it was as low as .15

That's 133% rise in a month.

Anyone wish to express an opinion on this stock ?

Thanks in advance

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:51 - ID#433172)
Ypour 15:05.. I agree, I have thought that for quite awhile. I would add the elimination of all forms of insurance, especially health-insurance. People just can't see the reason for soaring health costs is because the PAYMENT is already in, just needs to be collected. Besides- doctors are dangerous to your health.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 15:52 - ID#31868)
DAYLAMI, gotta go with the Irish horse on the turf...yup...uh huh...
DBog, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I have no info on the stock you mentioned...I do offer two of my pet stocks for you to look at:


I have been watching and following them for a while...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:03 - ID#259260)
@ George..... Modern medicine
I hate to break this to ya George, but you can thank modern medicine...and doctors who study and practice same.... for GREATLY expanding our life spans, and the quality of life during those lifespans. This is a development that has occured only within this the advent of modern medicine and the breakthroughs thereof, achieved medical care and advances that exponentially exceed anything avialable previously.... by a margin that would have to be calculated in powers of ten. This is a fact. It is beyond dispute.

I'm always amazed at those who fail to appreciate the gardens that are directly in front of their noses...while thinking whistfully of the gardens of yore they have conceived in their imagination.... " gardens " which in reality were a bunch of dried up thistles and weeds.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:05 - ID#433172)
Your banker the snitch.. Chalkmup another plus for y2k, it'll help keep those sharks away from those of us drifting in our rafts. They are closing in on us like a pythons coils. I like free corn too, but my boat is still anchored up in the bay in sight of the house and loaded up with the goodies.

Nature puts a highj value on life, all forms of life, and cuts them down by feeding them to other forms. The law of this planet. Absolute law. If we lose a few billion people it would be consisitent with the balance of nature. When it comes to important systems it's important to have something that works. It's proven, and it provides for great diversity.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:09 - ID#432395)
@MIKE---XSYS---Where does it trade? TIA.

Gold Dancer
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:10 - ID#377196)
I don't understand. Why would some one in the drug trade want'to use
a bank. They don't pay any interest to speak of. If you sold drugs
for such small amounts of a few thousand dollars wy would you just keep the cash and psend it. I don't understand why your so excited or why
the banker is. Maybe there is something else going on here.

I know only one thing. That the more cash in society ( which is
actually debt money or bonds converted to cash ) the less interest the
government has to pay on the debt. The government could in effect convert
all bonds to cash. Of course, that would create a lot of inflation
because many people can't hold onto cash because it burns a hole in their
pocket. Maybe it is just the opposite: Maybe the govt. is trying to
encourage the use of cash for two reasons: Lessen their and the banks payment of interest.

But drug dealers using banks? I never heard of such a foolish thing.
Why would they want to do this? I think something is amiss here.

Thanks, GD

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:13 - ID#348257)
XSYS trades on Nasdaq Small Cap.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:17 - ID#45173)
Many thanks again. I'll link a poll later using the URL you gave me.

Just got my new bank card. Expires 10/00. Came with the following notice.

Important Information About Your Card and The Year 2000

Enclosed is your new Bank Card. You will notice that your new card may have an expiration date of 2000 or 2001, which is shown as "00" or "01" on you Card.

Please be aware that some merchants will not accept your new Card for payment because their computers -- including cash registers and sales terminals -- have not been updated to recognize these dates.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank you.

This oughta be interesting.


Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:19 - ID#348257)
Y2K...sung to the tune of "YMCA"
At the risk of irritating some wonderful friends who I admire and enjoy here, I have come to the conclusion that the Y2K thing, like the Asian Contagion, and Deflation, is old news. It is done, over, happened. There will be SOME inconvenience, yes. SOME people will even "lose" their savings for a while, maybe even permanently ( if it goes to litigation ) , true. Lots of folks will be inconvenienced. They will just have to sit on granpa's knee by the light of several candles for a while and find out that life actually WAS possible without Sport Utility Vehicles, Shopping Malls, Computers, and remote controls for TV. Even WITHOUT TV!!!!!

Life is possible. Recession comes now and then ANYWAY. Let's get over it. What are we made of here, troops? It will be, at worst, a BIG inconvenience. At best, a blip soon forgotten. IMHO. Let us not tie our concerns regarding gold to this phenomenon.

Gold Dancer
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:19 - ID#377196)
As for the big drug dealers they can just go to the Cayman Islands
or any other country outside of the US and buy real estate, gold etc
for cash. But drug dealers in the US using banks? Hardly. Soooo.........

.... we all need to think about this a little more.

Thanks, GD

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:21 - ID#153102)
Credo of the American Corporate Socialist
I Believe

I believe in the supreme worth of the individual and in his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I believe that every right implies a reponsibility; every opportunity, an obligation; every possession, a duty.

I believe the law was made for man and not man for the law; that government is the servant of the people and not their master.

I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a living but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.

I believe that thrift is essential to well-ordered living and that economy is a prime requisite of a sound financial structure, whether in government, business, or personal affairs.

I believe that truth and justice are fundamental to an enduring social order.

I believe in the sacredness of a promise, that a man's word should be as good as his bond; that character - not wealth or power or position - is of supreme worth.

I believe that the rendering of useful service is the common duty of mankind and that only in the purifying fire of sacrifice is the dross of selfishness consumed and the greatness of the human soul set free.

I believe in an all-wise and all-loving God, named by whatever name, and that the individual's highest fulfillment, greatest happiness, and widest usefulness are to be found in living in harmony with His will.

I believe that love is the greatest thing in the world; that it alone can overcome hate; that right can and will triumph over might.

--- John D. Rockefeller, Jr.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:21 - ID#31868) horse scratched eh...
Leggera is my second choice...sheller...your horse is looking strong for the final race...SILVER CHARM...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:23 - ID#251180)
Modern medicine, is a health hazard
Looking back over the last hundred years the greatest contribution to an increase in health for the general population has been modern sanitation. The disappearance of open sewers and adoption of hand washing has been been what really has increased our life span. Death in childbirth for both mothers and newborns has though admittedly benefitted from modern paediatric medicine. The greatest cause of death in western societies today are lifestyle diseases ( Cancer and high blood pressure are almost unknown in developing countries ) . If you look at the lifespan of historical figures going back 2000 years you will see they lived to sixty years plus in most cases. The average age of death was lowered by the practice of getting all the young men into huge groups, giving them each a lump of steel and having them hack each other into bits ( the average frenchman is still shorter than before the napoleonic wars ) .
It is a strange and telling fact that during periods when doctors are unable to provide universal services the death rate falls.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:27 - ID#31868)
not that it suits me...but I will take GENTLEMAN in the final race...
go gold and silver...rah...rah...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:28 - ID#433172)
Comon, I'm sure you would be happy to bring new understanding to a person so in the dark as to not appreciate the benefits of MODERN medicine. Tell me please when did modern medicine begin? Last year, yesterday, 10 years ago? I've been reading Medical teztbooks ( Sajous Encxlopedia of Modern Medicine ) which was published I belive in 1918, does that qualify?

Check out the diagnosis and treatment of any number of diseases by our allopathic champions over the last hundred years. Scary, when did they become enlightened all of a sudden? Last time I checked only a small percentage of people who died in hospital were being treated for the thing that got them.

They have a good press..trauma t.v., Dr. Killdare after all they have the bucks to front the trip. The head of the AMA just came out with a statement condemming the use of marijuna for medical reasons. Hell they should be using HEROIN to stop pain.

Anyway, we do live longer and better, but that is a function of diet and lifestyle more than medical treatment. Alternative medical advances are the cutting edge of medicine, along with gene related advances and others, some of which are main stream admitidly.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:31 - ID#153102)
The life insurance industry and government ( social security ) has bet on your timely demise. With those bets in place what are the chances the health insurance industry will pay for cures to extend life or that government will allow them ?

Gold Dancer
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:33 - ID#377196)
Mike Sheller
I think I agree with what you say about Y2K. My worst fear is
what people's reactions to these inconveinences will be. I could care
less about TV. But some people won't feel the same way!!! I wonder if
domestic violence will increase because the "old man" can't slump in
front of the TV with his beer every night. My god, he might have to
relate to his "old lady". How will he handle this hugh change in his
life? My guess is that a few TV's get trashed. Good for the economy!!

I am not pinning my hopes on gold because of Y2K. I could never get
into that argument. But the debt argument.....

Thanks, GD

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:36 - ID#28994)
Mozel 16.21
Corporate American Socialist Huh. What.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:37 - ID#25490)
How much gold?
Envy & Mooney
You guys made a couple of errors in your calculations on amount of gold mined in your posts about 12:20 kitco time, . ( I hope I havent made any here :- ) )
Gold is measured in Troy pounds and ounces not avoirdupois pounds and ounces. ( Actually youll never read of Troy pounds of gold, but no matter. )
And gold is measured in Metric tons ( tonnes ) , not avoirdupois tons.

As a matter of conversion, then:
1 Metric tonne = 2,204. Troy pounds
1 Troy pound = 12 Troy oz
1 Metric tonne = 32,150 Troy oz

Using your figure of 88,000 tonnes = 2,829,265,331 Troy oz and 5 ( US ) billion people we find there is 0.56 Troy oz for each human bean on the planet, ( slightly less per person when John Glenn returns. )

But, you got that 88,000 ton figure from Gold Facts By Lawrence Wandell, I think, at the link posted just before your discussion:

Thats old figures, real old figures. The WGC and most analysts used the best currrent estimate of above gold mined as 130,000 tonnes. ( 4,179,596,512 Troy oz ) so, for every human heart that beats there is 0.835 Troz oz of gold.

The more I read about the gold rushes, and I am reading tonnes about the gold rushes, the more I believe that the estimates of tonnes of gold taken are fundamentally flawed.

Every story contains examples of secret discoveries and under-reporting of gold won. In some cases I think there may have been an under-reporting of gold recovery by 2 to 5 or even 10 times.

Look at that number; 130,000 tonnes. One mine in NZ, the Fabulous Martha mine, recovered 1,000 tonnes of gold ( and 1800 tonnes of silver ) from 1891 until 1952 when it closed. It re-opened in 1988 and is producing today. That 1,000 tonnes is almost 1% of all the gold supposed to have ever been recovered. Yes, the Martha was fabulous, but there have been other fabulous discoveries too.

I am sure, if we all looked around, we could find other mines and motherloads that have produced over 500 tonnes each. If anyone could post same, Id appreciate it.

I do think that the official estimates of gold have always been wrong. But then again, Im used to being wrong myself.......

Gold Dancer
(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:39 - ID#377196)
I hate to think about what you just said. It has been said before
and will provide the next chapter of human evolution in ethics and
morality. Or, what is more important: people or money. An old
question with a new spin.

Thanks, GD

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:44 - ID#259260)
GOLD cover article in major publication...
GoldBugs who don't normally read Numismatic pubs. might want to head down to the local grocery store and pick up the one Magazine that seems to be universally avialable at all large magazine sellers. "COINage" magazine...with a very healthy circulation.

Full color cover of GOLD coins, all different types, and feature article with GOLD in big caps... which says "Don't sell it short", "New hedge for the

Two major articles on the inside.... one titled "Gold and the Millenium Scare"..pretty well written by Tom Delorey.

And the feature cover article, written by Robert Pringle. Covers the Australia CB sale, and how CB's worldwide are rethinking their strategy on Gold sales....namely by realizing they should not sell off their reserves after all.

The decision by Belgian to discontinue future incremental sales they had been making to other CB's... ( and here ANOTHER told us that a big new "purchase" was the looming Belgian 300 ton CB sale...a sale which never took place! )

The Swiss decision to formally cut the link between Gold and the Swiss franc is discussed also, but with the added factor that the Swiss, and other major central bankers have NOW shifted from a stance of "Gold no longer has a role in the international monetary system" "GOLD does have an important role as a reserve asset in the international monetary system".

The EU and Euro are discussed, aa are Gold's central role in lending credibility to this new currency.

All these issues have been discussed at Kitco before in greater detail than what appears in these articles..however...what I found interesting, is that these concepts have now for the first time I know of, been written in a readily digestable form, ......and appeared in a national publication with high circulation, that is frequently purchased in the Tens of laymen who may not be aware of Gold's role in the world economy.

The upshot summary of the articles, is a bullish outlook on Gold's future and it's role in world economics.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:45 - ID#25490)
Clean water, good food, then sawbones
Akshully, the greatest increases in life expectancy have occured because of water reticulation ( separation of sewerage/drains and fresh water ) in the cities that only occured within the past 120 years, and better diet, which is a by-product of increased food production. The wonderful leaps forward in medicine have piggy-backed these two other factors. Medicine can certainly increase the enjoyment of life and for some increase life expectancy, but it is the first two factors we should recognise as the most important.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:46 - ID#286234)
Are you saying I dont need to buy a propane freezer and fill it up with pork chops? ;- )


(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:47 - ID#153110)
@skinny The credo of Rockefeller, Jr. is everywhere subscribed to by
"leadership". Clinton's agenda is pure ACS credo in the political forum.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:47 - ID#413156)
Will Touch of Gold and Silver charm be awesome again?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:49 - ID#259260)
@ George
Tell it to me when you have cancer, need heart surgery, or develop a neurological disorder. You'll be the first in line to demand the benefits in the advances achieved be science and modern medicine.

I realize we now live in a world dominated by quacks, quack therapies, and nonsense spread by wives tales.... but when push comes to shove, the medicine bashers who have completely failed to comprehend the world around them, suddenly wake up and want their piece.

Get real.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:54 - ID#254288)
Of Banks, Drugs and the Military and your freedom

They send the military all over the world to quash a tin pot dictator or some-ism, they determine the world's scoundrels, give warning and when unheaded, the scoundrel nations -and their ordinary people- are bombed into oblivion, US lives are lost and a huge taxpayer bills come due for the exercise.

Drugs are combated by controls on banking and money transfers - and by extension gold, all to harass the common citizen while the nation weakens and addicted by the drugs.
Never do they use concerted military strikes to weed out the drug sources, as it's not politically correct.

It seems that we are in the dawn of the complete control of our lives by a purportedly do gooder government.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:54 - ID#408170)
Beyond the "screen"
This weekend I attended a ( dealers ) gem and jewelry show in
North Carolina. Wandering back to the ( opal ) table, three or four
guys were discussing Gold. O-boy... my game.., all filled with
Kitco knowledge. I was amazed with the degree of understanding
these non-Kitcoites had for, ECU, political, and technical factors
affecting the POG. The truth is ( out there ) also.
I invited them over to Kitco for a visit.
Be nice to em. RB

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:55 - ID#287279)
Miro and all
14:05 post is a spoof. Follow the link and read actual yahoo article.
Always read, double check and verify ANY posts on the Net. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:55 - ID#413156)
Mike Sheller  parallel universes? I hate thinking before the big race Adrenaline flowing Back later tonight.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 16:58 - ID#153110)
@G.D. Die On Time with help from your government if needed
NEWS RELEASE March 30, 1998
WATER WARNINGS ISSUED -- Natick Massachusetts
Natick citizens will receive health warnings about drinking fluoridated
water in their next utility bill. The warnings were approved by the town's Board of Selectmen in a recent 3-2 vote and were spurred by the conclusions of the "Natick Fluoridation Study Committee", a panel of five independent and impartial scientists who were appointed by the Selectmen to review the risks and benefits of artificial water fluoridation.
According to the panel of scientists, "The Committee reached the firm
conclusion that the risks of overexposure to fluoride far outweigh any
current benefit of water fluoridation." ( see Executive Summary at ) . Partial conclusions:
* "Recent studies of the incidence of cavities in children show little to no difference between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities.
* "There is good evidence that fluoride is a developmental neurotoxicant, meaning that fluoride effects the nervous system of the developing fetus at doses that are not toxic to the mother.
* "Water fluoridation shows a positive correlation with increased hip
fracture rates in persons 65 years of age and older, based on two recent
epidemiology studies.
* "Some adults are hypersensitive to even small quantities of fluoride,
including that contained in fluoridated water.
* "Animal bioassays suggest that fluoride is a carcinogen, especially for tissues such as bone ( osteosarcoma ) and liver. The potential for
carcinogenicity is supported by fluoride's genotoxicity and pharmacokinetic properties. Human epidemiology studies to date are inconclusive, but no appropriate major study has been conducted."
-- end --

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:02 - ID#433172)
Actually I'm in not in good condition, the doctors tell me I have a bad heart ( ischemic ) and pretty high blood pressure. 3 doctors, they all said the same thing, and I knew it without them. I'm a fair mechanic and I must say they are the most cavilier lot the very tupe that invades and ruins many a good machine.

I decieded to go natures way, whichever way that is. Lose some weight etc.They wanted me on nito-glycerin and Liptor for starters. Naw, I says. OK they says do it your way, and I will.

My wife says I have nothing better to do than quibble with people, a sign of true degenercy.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:03 - ID#153110)
Wise up. There was no drug problem when even a 14 year old could go into any phramacy and buy laudanum or cocaine. You could buy it by Sears Mail Order. I posted the prices from an old catalog I have.

The really big money is in Prohibition.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:06 - ID#348257)
keep the freezer full of pork chops. Fire up the grill -I'll be right over.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:06 - ID#31868)
awesome race
AWESOME wins...dynamite race...gulp and a puff to the winner...

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:14 - ID#348257)
brother mozel, I honestly don't understand that post "Credo of an American Corporate Socialist," Was that list of John D's virtuous points meant to be a snide juxtaposition with your perceptions ( or second or third hand historical inheritances ) of the man's actual comportment in life? Or are you deriding the virtues in that list for themselves. If the first case, you are certainly entitled to chose your heroes and hypocrites, as you see them. I may not hold your coat in every battle, but would cheer your right to scrap. In the second case, I think those virtues are quite laudable, and only wish they were taken even a leetle more seriously by our politicos and citizens alike these days. I am fully aware of the limitations of the human psyche relative to ideals, but I do think, short of burning witches at the stake, we must be guided by them, and the ones you have posted are as good as any, it seems to me, for people "in the world." So what am I missing?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:14 - ID#365216)
Excuse me, but I have to go wee. . .

That is all. Oh, and have a nice day.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:14 - ID#31868)
Mike Sheller, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...on the other hand if you are wrong about
Y2K and I think you are...what then with no preparations?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:19 - ID#286234)
Brother Mike
Great..I'll start the coals, just lemme make a martini first!:- )

sip, gulp, puff..go gold..Namaste'

- sam

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:21 - ID#254288)
Clinton and Gun Control

Sh!t with all those pissed-off boyfriends and husbands, you'd want it too.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:21 - ID#259260)
@ Au*tralian...George
Guys...guys...why is it that seemingly intelligent folks, who would never take their advanced emission controlled automobile to a hairstylist to get fixed.... would instead be willing to trust that same educationally ignorant hairstylist's recommendation of some herb over a doctor who has
spent 24 years studying science, biology, anatomy, endocrinology, pysiology, and all the otehr subjects essential to medicine?

George says lifespans are increasing due to better diet and lifestyle. Every major study indicates exactly the opposite. In western nations our lifespans and overall health are rapidly the SAME TIME that we become more sedentary and eat a diet higher in fat and lower in nutrients with each passing year. The DOCTORS plead with us to exercise and eat vegetables and fruit...we ignore them and expect to get patched up when our arteries clog or we get fat induced diabetes, cancer, et al.

Au* says that "Alternative" medicine provides the "real" advances in medicine. Ohh pleasssseee!!!!! Don't make me laugh! Have you ever read the studies which contrasted TCM with western medicine diagnoses and treatments on teh same patients who were subjected to both approaches?? It's a real hoot.

Do magnetic resonance imaging, X-ray technology, immunization, anti-biotics, ring a bell? We have medicines tthat cure and treat diseases
which were fatal just 40 years ago.

You guy's are preaching to the wrong potential convert. I had a neuro-cariac problem that is often fatal. I was "cured" through a combination of very advanced ( and at the and expirmental ) diagnoses and treatment, culminating in surgery which involved running RF probes through my femoral, and neck arteries into my heart to "map" the malfunctioning electrical paths and burn them away with an RF signal!

Just a few years ago, basketball players were dropping dead on this malady ( known as Wolff Parkinson White syndrome ) .

My daugher was saved from a life of retardation and possible blindness and deafness because savvy doctors realized her skull was fusing improperly a few months after birth, and putting enormous pressure on part of her brain which given a few more months would do permanent damage. . She had an operation known as a "Lamdoid Sinosectomy".... saved her from a life of misery.

My mother was saved from "terminal" Uterine / Ovarian conacer using advanced and experimental drug therapies.... this was twelve years ago and it hasn't returned. If she'd gone to one of the "alternative" whacko freaks who were giving apricot pit medications and such nonsense, I have no doubt she'd be daed today.

But it isn't MY anecdotal experiences with these things that can just as easily find thousands of nut cases who will swear that oolong tea saved them from some disease or another.

It's the hard, scientific studies that have been done which tell the story. Indeed, when any such double blind, and well constructed study finds that an "alternative" medicine or treatment shows promise, it will become a mainstream treatment in short order.

I can assure you gentleman, that the vast majority of health care providers are more interested in what really works than in preserving some "status quo".

As to witholding marijuana and pain killing medications from the sick,'s not medical practitioners and science who are responsible for's the moronic Govt. beurocrats who insist on interfering with the practice of medcine. In their ill conceived "war on drugs" the Govt. pinheads make the doctors justify every controlled substance perscription sixteen ways to sunday... and put said doctors under intense heat and scrutiny every time they perscribe pain medication "more than they should"... ( in the pinheaded beauocrat's view )

Stick with witchdoctors and ignorance of wives tales in you like.... I will continue to have faith in science that works through proven study.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:25 - ID#433172)
Mike Shellar asks a good question. So?

As far as drugs are concerned I agree with you completely. The problem would go away if we would just let it.

Arby- I don't think we disagree on animals, read myn post again.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:26 - ID#413156)
Oh Canada
Congratulations Canada Awesome Again should be horse of the year 6 for 6 Canadian bred by Frank Stronach owner of magna a car parts manufacture. Time for a little celebrating.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:29 - ID#348257)
well, actually, I have been blessed with a very nice basement, half of which is the office from where I'm typing this now, the other half a modest pantry. I will be sure to have extra bags of dried peas, beans, lentils, etc, even more than I usually squirrel away down here. I will also, I admit, have a supply of bottled water, portable cooking options, blankets, etc, etc, plus a fire pit in the back yard - nothing extravangant - but sufficient resources in general for a month of being pinned down in camp. Maybe a little cash, too, if my wife allows me to exceed my allowance ( yes, paper money - I'll be damned if I'm going to give away my gold during a nerdy COMPUTER GLITCH! ) I owe this to my wife, my dog, and my wife's elderly aunt who lives with us.
So I will not be without provision for some discomfort for a while. I am treating it as an impromptu military exercise on a civilian scale. I may even wear my jungle hat. However, I think there are extremes to which one might go that will prove wasteful ( unless you are actually looking forward to eating pea soup and drinking bottled water for a couple of years ) . Sure, the call could go to a real disaster... anything is possible. And if there is a possibility, I think some leverage against that possibility is not unwarranted. But not to build one's expectations of a wrenching reality shift beyond some grumbling and upset habits. I can't fashion my life around the outside worst case scenario. I would be digging too many foxholes in too many activities. I have learned over time that very often things never turn out quite as bad as you had feared, or as good as you had hoped.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:35 - ID#408170)
found at usagold.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:36 - ID#433172)
Your anecdotal list of cures and treatments is very impressive and I understand why you take the position you do. I'm not militating against the main stream proceedures you refer to, and anti-biotics, immunization, among a host of other practices are very valuable. Essentially I'm not disagreeing with you, you are disagreeing with me. Alternative medicine has value too, they are not mutally exclusive.

Doctors don't tell me to eat right...they tell me nitro blah blah blah. That's just it, you are promoting alternative treatments without realizing.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:44 - ID#348257)
Bug_Al, all patients, tired, poor, hungry...
LGB has a point about medicine. I like to characterize astrology as an ART based on SCIENCE, just like MEDICINE. And medicine IS an art. It is also an art that though, unlike astrology, has killed many people ( ;- ) , it has also saved far more, overall, than it has injured. I think the point is that there are people in all areas of human endeavor looking for answers in strange places - both in "conventional" medicine, and "alternative" medicine. It has been my experience that there are quacks and the inept, or simply the limited of vision, in both camps. But any discipline in which there has been such measurable progress in so many ways for our physical well-being must be accorded respect and support. Sure, medical doctors are often frighteningly deficient in their understanding of nutrition, and many other facets of health, and seem to come around to accepting many things years, even decades, after "quacks" have taking a bruising for their pioneer work. I am still horrified at hospital "food" that is given to patients after horrendously traumatic operations.
Nevertheless, all components of this important field must be sifted for their usefulness, and appreciated for the good they do. Most human effort in most areas of life comes out muddled and imperfect, probably reflecting that very flaw in our own natures.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 17:49 - ID#365216)
to Mike S.
I'm sure some of your unprepared friends and neighbors would joyfully
accept the pea soup and bottled water that you could not use all by
yourself. Besides storage room,
two-liter pop bottles filled with tap water and a few drops of chlorine
bleach cost you NOTHING and could well save your life. MREs and
dehydrated goods stored for years will still taste DELICIOUS when
opened up and used, regardless of whether it is ARmageddon or not.
I concur that one should have cash on hand so he won't have to barter
with his precious gold and silver and platinum coins.

Namaste and that is all.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:07 - ID#412286)
Something is Happening
As a leftist ( economically ) I was pleasently surprised when one of my stalwart Republican financial service industry friends said to me this week...Ya know with the govts bailing out big investors world wide why should not everyone in this country be entitled to free medical care..I almost fell on the floor ihn disbelief but he went on to say it only makes sense as a poor child is more important than investment banks investment in Brazil. I am beginning to believe we are swinging basck in the right direction for a Louis Ruy keiser/Larry Kulow fan to be talking like this. Maybe this election meant more than meets the eye..hope so!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:15 - ID#433172)
Another scam to provide for the "poor" but the main effect will be the enrichment of the haves. Medical establisment is wiping us out.

I agree with on some counts, like bottom line support such as food stamps. It's against my principles but still a good social hedge.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:30 - ID#29048)
Stock fund inflow largest in 4 Months

( free site, registration required )

NEW YORK -- Investors poured a net $4.51 billion into stock mutual funds in the week ended Wednesday, according to AMG Data Services, their largest inflow in four months.

DOW to 10,000 in '98

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:31 - ID#348257)
Appreciate the input and critique...SIR!!!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:35 - ID#350194)
@The Silver Wedge
Hope this URL works:
You can clearly see the narrowing wedge on this weekly Silver chart. Which way will we break?
Let's also compare 1997 and 1998.
In July 1997 Silver made it's yearly low. At beginning of Nov. 1997 Silver was approximately $4.75 By Feb. of 1998 you could have easily sold your Silver in the $7.00-7.25 area if you were so inclined. ( 50% gain in 4 months or 150% on annualised basis. )
In August 1998 Silver made its yearly low. At beginning of Nov. 1998 Silver is approximately $5.00. Will history repeat? ( Without checking absolutely, I think the run in 1993/94 also began around Nov. )
By the light of the Silvery Moo oo oo oo OON! O! O!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:49 - ID#413156)
The Races
Mike Sheller Years ago I went down to the woodbine race track with my portable computer loaded with the program Nova . I would assign each horse a house from 1-12 and the computer would calibrate the aspects pertaining to each house and ruler at the approximate finish time of the race. Then it was a matter of interpretation and handicapping knowledge. Before long a huge crowd had formed around me wondering about my new system and no longer could I see the tote board or the race. Sometimes its better to keep the real secrets to yourself especially in a parallel universe

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:56 - ID#348169)
@Mike Sheller and ALL (Contest to those inclined!)
Mike, buddy, much as I hate to argue with YOU , my friend, I cannot let you get away without a slight retraction on your implied statement that Asrology has never killed anyone. "... It is also an art that though, unlike astrology, has killed many people ( ;- ) " You, above most others here, must know and admit that in centuries not long past certain person's ( many themselves, the sometime practioner's ) did indeed lose lives over the practice of Astrology. Now Kitcoites all know from many of Mike's ( and other's ) past posts that astrologically speaking, the Moon represents Silver and the Sun represents Gold and the same holds true in many ancient religions from around the world.
My question to ALL is: Does anyone know on what date and time Mike posted his ode to the Silver-Tongued Moon-man - Mooney - moi? I believe it was about March-May 1997. One 1964 Canadian Silver Dollar, ( the special 100 year Commerative of the Charlottetown Conference - Canada's initial Independance meeting ) , to the first correct answer. Post answer here so there can be no arguments please!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:58 - ID#348169)
Astrology. Astrology, ASTROLOGY!
What the hay - it's a slow night!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 18:58 - ID#37463)
Re: Another
I just received in the mail ( as my reward for posting at another site ) a copy of a pamphlet entitled "In the Footsteps of Giants" by Michael J. Kosares who analyzed the postings of someone who went under the handle of "Another" but who apparently has not posted lately or is doing so under another name. The take of the book is that gold is being traded for oil and the consequences of it are that both prices are being kept artifically low. According to this author the CB's are in bed with the oli producing countries. Maybe this is old news to most of you but it was an interesting read. Apparently when the CB's have no more gold to sell then gold will shoot up like a rocket. The author talks in terms of $1,000 ounce gold. I w ould recommend a read of this book. He was quite taken with "Another" and was of the opinion that he was an insider who with "Big Trader" knew a little something the average investor does not. I'm looking for continual building of the gold price. If you may remember when the DOW was going up priviously gold was sucking rear teat. With the gold going up now gold is holding its own and making gains. When the air is let out of the DOW we might be looking at something big for gold.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:13 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...the bottom line huh...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:14 - ID#348169)
There are many ways to back up the fact that Gold should be about $1,200 dollars in 1998 dollars. I was going to refer you back to my post of last week but when I did a check of what would happen if you clicked on it ( you know - 88 more words etc ) , it clicked through not to my post but to Forbes main page ( due to the chart ) . AAR - that is why I'm re-posting entire article. Any takers on my Silver Coin Contest yet? I will, of course, be paying any delivery charges - even if its to downunder! ;- )
Here's the rough math Tort:
Date: Fri Oct 30 1998 12:09
Mooney* ( Back To The Future ( Through Reading the Past ) of Silver ( and Gold ) )
Copyright  1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Looking at chart someone ( gollum? ) posted this morning found at: and I note that Roughly
speaking the price of Silver has averaged about $30. this century in 1998 dollars.
During the same time the Gold/Silver Ratio has averaged about 40. This suggests to
me that a fair value for Silver after the present markets reverse ( reality check time:
1999-2001 ) will be $30 vis a vis 1998 dollar and fair value for Gold will be $1,200
in 1998 dollars. ( Let's plan the Hawaii meet for 4th quarter 2001. )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:16 - ID#45173)
November Interest Rates Change Poll
Please vote on how you think Greenspan will effect rates in November.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:18 - ID#348129)
I definitely agree on your prices, at a minimum. Anyone who is averaging in ( as opposed to gambling in Futures ) , will be well rewarded in the not to distant future.......

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:20 - ID#348129)
Latest short poition on the TSE is 18.5 Million! These shorts took a BIG hit this week. Much more to come........

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:20 - ID#37463)
Thanks for the insight. As has been abundently discussed here there are big boys playing this game and it will behoove us to be on the righ side of the aisle when the plays are made.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:22 - ID#37463)
I just voted and find that I am the only voter. It looks like that there is a 100% chance that interest rates will drop in November. That is what the poll shows.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:29 - ID#25490)
At the risk of repeating myself
You know what to do:

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:32 - ID#348257)
My work is done here ( ;- )

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:35 - ID#348257)
Regulus - your 18:49
well presented...well couched
I will keep my counsel.

Buy some OPEN and XSYS and get back to me in 3 months. If you are not happily ahead, I will take you to lunch. ( you come here, of course ) .

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:38 - ID#413156)
The Trend is a Friend
Mooney In regards to looking into the past to see the future .The future can never copy the past as the universe is always expanding and changing even the thoughts of mortal man .I certainly can live with the ideas of following a trend but Gold and Silver have not finished the down cycle. If you are correct I will miss the first wave but will jump on the bandwagon on the second wave and ride to the fifth wave .I certainly dont mind missing a few dollars. Good Luck in all your trading .See you all sometime next week.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:43 - ID#348257)
Yes it is a slow night because there is no vigor in the predictive mode ( wha? ) .
Astrology must step in where milquetoast goldbugs fear to tread. There is much talk here of skunks under decks, codes of capitalists, and computer y2k glitches of nerd-dom proliferated, but no predictions and assessments of markets. So astrology must fill the gap where the timid fear to tread. It is a tough and dirty job, but someone has to do it. And who better than an astrologer, who is used to the slings and arrows of narrow unbelievers, and encrusted crustacean minds. Yes, Moonstep, I lay myself upon the pyre, that my fellow Kitcoite be enlightened, be awakened, and make a few bucks.

I accept the task.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:44 - ID#153110)
John D and Jr will be gratified to know the Credo was well received by you. I merely posted Jr's words. Written and first promoted to America years ago.

Once you learn to read it like an attorney, it's amazing to find how thorougholy this Credo infuses opinion and law today. For example, you have a "right to life". But, every right has a responsibility. So, if you want to live here you must accept responsibility to pay for the education of your neighbor's children, etc.

Of course, the section on the "sacredness" of a promise is the bankster's dream, that a "promise to pay" should be sacred.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:45 - ID#348257)
The "trend" has clearly bottomed. We will watch you running toward the caboose as the train upon which we ride leaves the station....gooooood luck!!!!!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:47 - ID#187109)
...Sheller's Picks...
They are good.........ohmy!

Trico Marine ( TMAR ) Gained almost 100% since he mentioned.....

WPOG - flat but at least not going down.....perhaps waiting to turn on the burners

CRK - comstock res inc

eec - w/w....doing well since he called it

Oh yeah.....all the while a staunch gold bug buying bullion like it is the last of it ;- )

Mike..........keep doing that homework are solid both tech and fundy AND you reach for and touch the stars........shukriya. find a crane to hoist myself onto his shoulders


Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:48 - ID#348257)
I think you have become overwrought. Perhaps a sabbatical in the arts will do you good. It always did wonders for me when I took the doings of my fellow man too seriously.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:49 - ID#262242)
The Dow
The Dow will continue to rally into 1999. The fed is supporting the Dow, they can not let it fail. To risky politicaly and most pension funds are invested, in one form or another in the dow. The failure will come with the dollar or the bond markets. There is a tidal wave of debt coming due from countrys around the world that can not be repaid. There will be major defaults or massive printing of currancys. IMVHO

Just returned from So. Indiana and Ohio, the leaves were beautiful. Will be in Salt Lake City the 20th of this month. If there are any Kitcoits there, would enjoy having a cup of coffee with you.

Hello: Tolerant1 - Reify - Arden - Mike Sheller - Crystal Ball - DJ.

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:56 - ID#348257)
I thank you for your kind words. It straightens me to bring my fellow Kitcoite great percentage gains. How they fight it! But who will believe my report? WPOG will rise 3-fold, or more, in the coming bull market in oil and gas AFTER Jan/Feb.

Right now my 2 immediate darlings are OPEN and XSYS. Buy them now, or forever hold your pieces. If they do not bring 100%...nay, 200% in six months to a year, then roast me on the coals. I will do 3 FREE personal horoscope readings to the first Kitcoites who clamor!
Greater love hath no astrologer.
If I am wrong, then light the pyre and burn me at the stake. I will retire to fundamental analysis and tax law...NO...heaven forbid...burn me then!
Bryant Park is waiting in the rain....

(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:58 - ID#153110)
You want me to believe you ever took anything beyond your body functions seriously ? Har !

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 19:58 - ID#348257)
Bill - your salmon was absolutely delicious. So wonderful meeting you!

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:01 - ID#348257)
thanks for the laugh. I am rolling!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:03 - ID#343449)

one reason..

another reason...

ANOTHER reason......

on and and on and on ad infinitum............

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:03 - ID#348257)
I can't stop laughing!

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:04 - ID#348257)
you just made a friend.

Gusto Oro
(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:05 - ID#430260)
Why not everything free?
Yeh ROR, let's have the government give everybody everything FREE! That's what the gobment is for, right? --AG

Mike Sheller
(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:06 - ID#348257)
cherokee baybee, sweetheart, darling - don't get heavy into crude until AFTER Jan/Feb 99. Pullleeeze!

Stand on my shoulders, baby. Look!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:07 - ID#153110)
@Sheller If I was overwrought before,
I'm really in trouble now.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:10 - ID#153110)
@George How are your principles on Free Dental ? Have to be able to chew that
Free Food. Right ? And Free Shoes, too ? Right ? So, you can walk to get a Free Drink after the meal and before the Free Movie ? Hell, let's just go whole on the hog with the Negative Income Tax which pays you more the less you do. Nixon's proposal, I think.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:15 - ID#240169)
From what I can see the dollar is strengthening despite the prognosis on this site.

Can anyone explain, please, what is the significance to the T-bonds decline in general and in respect to the dollar in particular.

And If the dollar does decline, despite indications, what currency is the preferable one for investment.

Thank you.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:18 - ID#288186)
News is becoming more prevalent about Saddam/Iraq's recent kicking out of
U.N. inspectors. At a minimum, this should keep oil from any serious
near term falls. And, as you have mentioned, Mike Sheller, we should be
seeing higher energy prices and commodities in the near future...
Here's a recent story concerning Iraq and possible U.S. air strikes being

11/07 16:47 U.S. mulls options to end Iraq defiance of U.N.

( Recasts lead, updates throughout ) By Laurence McQuillan

WASHINGTON, Nov 7 ( Reuters ) - U.S. President Bill Clinton will meet at
Camp David on Sunday with his top national security advisers to weigh steps to
force Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to end his defiance of U.N. arms

Clinton, who flew to the mountaintop hideaway in Maryland's Catoctin
Mountains on Saturday, will receive an update from senior officials, including
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Defense Secretary William Cohen,
National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and CIA Director George Tenet.

The meeting was called "to brief ( Clinton ) on the situation and review the status
of the consultations" that have been going on with allies in Europe and in the
region, said White House spokesman David Leavy.

Leavy stressed that Clinton was not expected to make any final decisions on the
options under consideration, including the possible launching of cruise missiles at
military targets, as the United States has done in the past.

"Iraq needs to comply immediately.... We've made clear that this is
unacceptable behavior," Leavy said. "All options remain on the table."

Despite growing speculation that Clinton was moving closer to order air strikes
on Iraq, senior administration officials insisted there was no timetable for action
and that officials were not operating under a self-imposed deadline.

Senior officials, however, described Clinton and his advisers as growing
increasingly impatient with what one described as "this cat-and-mouse game he
( Saddam ) likes to play."

Saddam triggered the latest crisis on Oct. 31 by announcing Iraq would no
longer cooperate with U.N. arms inspectors charged with looking for any
evidence Baghdad secretly may be developing weapons of mass destruction.

Berger, Clinton's national security adviser, in Paris on Saturday for talks with
British and French officials about forcing Baghdad's compliance with conditions
set by the United Nations at the end of the 1991 Gulf War.

He also met with French President Jacques Chirac, who has been opposed to
using military force against Iraq during past confrontations.

Cohen just completed a mission to the region to drum up Arab support for
Washington's crackdown on Baghdad.

Senior administration officials have made clear in recent days that planning was
underway for military air strikes to punish Saddam for his actions.

The United States currently has the aircraft carrier Eisenhower and 20 other
combat and support ships in and near the Gulf, including seven capable of firing
long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles.

Washington also has 174 warplanes in the area, including 50 on the Eisenhower.

The 15-member U.N. Security Council voted unanimously on Thursday for a
resolution calling on Baghdad to resume cooperation with the U.N. special
commission ( UNSCOM ) charged with the monitoring.

Iraq remained defiant on Saturday, insisting it would halt cooperation with U.N.
monitors and inspectors until the Security Council reviewed the sanctions
imposed because of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

Baghdad also is demanding the removal of Australian Richard Butler, the head
of the U.N. inspection operation, whom they say has been unfair.

A group of 15 U.N. inspectors left Baghdad to fly to the Gulf island state of
Bahrain on Saturday, and a U.N. official said a further group would leave in the
next few days.

The United Nations has said sanctions will be removed only when Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction have been dismantled.

In February, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan defused a crisis in which the
United States threatened to use military force by winning an Iraqi pledge that
U.N. arms inspectors would be given unimpeded access to sites.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:19 - ID#153110)
@Sheller Did you put the astrolobe to your computer there
before you made your Y2K will be A-OK prediction ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:23 - ID#288186)
Mike Sheller; Your Sat Nov 07 1998 08:03 post this morning was excellent
as usual. Keep up the good work! BBML Fox-man

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:23 - ID#350194)
@Regulus and mike and Aurator
The trend USUALLY is your friend. D'accord. However, sometimes:
"History repeats itself. That's one of the things wrong with history."
-------Clarence Darrow
And yet,
"Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed."
------- Johnathan Swift
And so far tonight my friends, I have only pointed out that there is a wedgie to be broken, whether ( wither? ) up or down, and also that in the past centuries some deaths DID happen as a result of the practise of astrology. As far as our beloved Mike S. is concerned we can only trust and hope that he will continue as good and as charmed ( and charming ) as Glinda. Mike, Who loves ya babe?
Aurator - What can I say? I'll try again, but in the spirit of your own past Kitco giving's I thought a little contest might also be in order. Thank's buddy! BTW - Page 278-279, concerning the death of the prophet Nixon in the time of King Henry V11 of England, what say you on this?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:23 - ID#31868)
I really think they should say Clintler is President of only part of the USA...I mean
42% turned out to vote and he slid into the office once again, so I figure that at best 20% of the population supports him, but only as long as he keeps those monthly checks arriving at their dwellings...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:28 - ID#43349)
Astrologers in history
By the way, one of these people is a relative of mine:

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:30 - ID#343449)


yes i remember predicting the devestating floods
in the midwest.....riding wheat to 460......then
to the cellar.....went further than i thought..stops
work real well ya know...calling the us$ history....
expecting limit up in corn and it going limit down... must survive the battles in order to win the war....
catching silver on it's first jump with options.....
losing mucho dinero on gold futures...but having fun...
currently giving green stained paper to the sellers
of crude and gold calls....looking to go long beans
and meal....this immb...

so what's yer point as earl would say?

i see war tomorrow........or the next day....and i'll
invest accordingly......btw...wnybsl?

consider the ultimatums being delivered...and by whom.....

INCOMING!......naw, it was just a moon shot of a moon man...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:31 - ID#288186)
Gollum; I haven't had a chance to look at the weather map lately...
What's the latest on hurricane "Financia"?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:31 - ID#412286)
The same could be said for Reagan. I dont like Clinton but you have to give him credit for determination. As Don Imus recently said "they have beaten me down, if he and Hilliary want to be President that bad, let them have it I dont have the energy to fight it anymore the situation is overwhelming.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:32 - ID#43349)
Little known facts about astrology

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:32 - ID#153110)
Do you have a line on what % of adults who could vote are actually registered ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:34 - ID#343449)

mike sheller...

my calls are dec'99......should fit real well into your
schedule for black gold.....and mine...carry on oh
tall one.....

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:38 - ID#350194)
Hey compadre, War stories aside , ( of course that kind of stuff can turn things on a dime but in this time frame I think cruises at Saddam would also make oil slide lower ) , using the patented Mooney EBTCM, I don't like what I see on that chart. Looks like I have to agree with: "Regulus ( The Trend is a Friend ) " and Mike on this one until further lows are put in. 'Course, been wrong before, especially on Pork Bellies ( right EB? )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:42 - ID#412286)
All the women
and clerical staff where I employ are overwhelming of their admiration for Clinton and how he has looked out for the little guy and led the Democrats to an unexpected victory. Based on what I have heard from the twenty somethings and younger I am not surprised at the Dem victory or Clinton's record high popularity. He is now viewed as a kind of comeback AGAIN hero kid. How appropriate Newt should slink away. GW BUSH is using the compassion word speaks volume as to how the popular mood is shifting. We know the Republicans have lost when they fire their revolutionary for a George Mitchell look alike milque toast in La.'s Livingston. Salute from the left.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:43 - ID#43349)
I still believe the second wall is a comin', the only question is when. I see two possibilites.

1 ) The rather sever fluctuations in the yen and bond markets, especially the bond markets, undoubtedly put pressure on any funds and banks who were leveraged long on treasuries. Thursday and Friday would have put "fire in the hole" that will become evident at margin call time on tuesday and wednesday.

2 ) We heard much of the hedge funds that were hit earlier like LTCM. Many banks run their own hedges from thier own trading desks. These too must have been hit hard. The hedge funds we heard about almost immediatelly because they had to meet margin calls from their bankers. The bankers do not give themselves margin calls so we won't be hearing from them untill the quarterly reports. In the meantime they try to recoup before the auditors come around. Quarterly reports will be at bout the beginning of the new year.

3 ) There is a third possibility. Namely, that I am simply wromg and the worst is over. I am wrong often enough that I wouldn't be surprised if such is the case.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:45 - ID#262242)
Thank you Tolerant1. puff puff to you to ( inhale ) choke, gasp, wheeeeeze ( floping around like a fish ) . Thank you Mike Sheller, you are to kind. I enjoyed meeting you also.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:46 - ID#153110)
Hell, I ain't gonna be impressed til Clinton gets off child molestation charges. Which I sorta expect.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:48 - ID#153110)
Zenster, can't you see ? Our modern female Joshua, going by the name of Monica, done blew that second wall down.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:48 - ID#43349)
Oh, by the way, If I AM wrong there is a fine collection of stock market scenarios to look at at:

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:49 - ID#317193)
Either your kidding or, my fellow lawyer, we need to talk of recent Kitco history. yes?



(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:52 - ID#350194)
Sorry Aurator, I thought your URL was going to be a Kitco search engine so that I could find that past post from Mr. Mike taht I want so bad! I'll keep dreaming. My reply to envy WAS a quick and hasty one as his original numbers were so awfully wrong ( which he readily admitted - we are still all friends here - I think - I'm still trying to interpret cherokees's "btw...wnybsl?" BTW - WHAT?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:52 - ID#317211)
@ tolerant1 - I swear I just heard this on CBS local news 5 minutes ago
Reporter: Who do you think should be the next Speaker of the House

San Diego voter: I think it should be, like-ya know, Orin Hatch, cuz
like he's got the morals thing goin'. Or maybe John Glenn, cuz he's
got so much publicity.

I've found the enemy, and he is us!

Time to Dummy Up.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:53 - ID#43349)
This one for example makes it appear we have already seen both walls ( the double bottom ) and are now on our way home.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:56 - ID#43349)
That could well be, the samuri however, has not yet sheathed his sword.

What is is.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:59 - ID#343449)


saddam asked afer he fired the 39'th missle into israel....

'who will fire the 40'th?'

do not think for a second he will stand idly by whilst we

read ....

this whole gulf war fiasco is just what mozel has alluded to
except he has the locations wrong....the gulf war was an illusory deception......we would have
had thousands dead if saddam had fought instead of watching
the new technology...with his russian co-horts.....and
planning this next non-coalition fiasco and defeat...

he has yet to reap his harvest in the mother of all battles...

read on moon-dude.....

(Sat Nov 07 1998 20:59 - ID#153110)
The image of the public selected and projected by the media keeps falling lower and lower. More in need of compassion, as it were. But, it is also done to dishearten you.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:01 - ID#153110)
Someone once forwarded to me a perfectly serious proposal to outlaw the use of the verb "To Be". It was written by a quantum physicist as I recollect. I thought of you, immediately.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:01 - ID#288186)
Gollum; Thanks....You know, storms have a way of weakening and then
re-strengthening. Hurricane Financia can also turn and head in a
new direction, as well...

I still see Bond prices headin' down, the U.S. dollar headin'
down ( after its brief "bear market rally" ) , and Gold headin' up
to 320ish in the near term. From there, I'll have to re-examine
Gold's future. I still don't know whether Prechter's Elliott Wave
Analysis has it right, in that we'll be seeing gold visit below
200 or not. I'm ready to be very flexible and get out of trades
in a heartbeat if it looks like gold is headin' way down. Of course,
I'm equally ready to buy "physical" if we see gold go to 250 or lower!
See ya, Fox-man

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:02 - ID#343449)


(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:06 - ID#25490)
"After ( the King's ) departure, the servants of the palace begin to jeer and insult Nixon, whom they imagined to be much better treated than he deserved."
page 278, Extrapops. I think you've found some echoing history.

As to cherokee's

the answer's 42.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:07 - ID#43349)
The dollar for the moment is being held up rather artificially. I don't think it will last:

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:10 - ID#288186)
Gollum; Me neither.....Gotta go! BBML(like Monday...)
: )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:11 - ID#153110)
Don't delude yourself that your ssm has ever been beyond earth orbit with you in it. You was dreamin' you was on the moon.

Clinton can cruise around like a Pentagonic Drag Queen, but Saddam has got the ground and the oil in it. Gluts of oil. Caspian Oil. Arabian Oil. Persian Oil. Russian Oil. African Oil. South American Oil. Mexican Oil.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:11 - ID#43349)
To be.

Would that be in the sense of will come to pass as in what is to be, or in in the sense of existing in the present as in simply to be?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:12 - ID#147201)
Larryn re your comments
I would be honored to be your brother. Funny thing- I have a brother who is always trying to get me straight!! Hope the humor and the details fit OK.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:13 - ID#153110)
@Gollum All Tenses and Senses of Be were to be banned.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:17 - ID#370236)
@mozel - I've fought back against the media brainwash
With a do-it-yourself lobotomy kit. Aside from the initial discomfort, worked just fine in combination with lithium & Prozac. That California
has just voted to return to the glorious days of Moonbeam Jerry Brown
bothers me not at all.

Feelin' very very ..... balanced? but

no longer angry, merely amused.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:19 - ID#153110)
Banning the use of the verb to be in all its tenses was proposed to prevent errors in logic. For example, it would be banned to say "What is is." This would be beneficial, according to the author, since What is is states an untruth; the truth being "What is was". And the river moveth on.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:20 - ID#210282)
Something just for you

Our president is a master at politics ( domestic ) .

And he is a master of deception with the spoken word.

There is one other master of deception who has been out maneuvering us for nearly 10 years, and WJC is powerless to do anything about it.

-- Saddam Hussein.

All of Saddams weapons of mass destruction are in hardened sites that even our experts acknowledge would be nearly impossible to get ( without invasion ) . And this time we will not have Saudi Arabia on our side. Probabaly not even Egypt, or Turkey. Just England and Israel.

Perhaps it will take another liar to undo our president. Foreign affairs is not his strong point.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:22 - ID#153110)
It helps me to reflect that Clinton probably has the mandate of 10% of the adults who could vote. This means he could not even get all the votes of the government workers, trial lawyers of ROR's ilk, and grant recipients. He's like Yeltsin with a Babe instead of a Bottle.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:25 - ID#147201)
RB re Gem show
Where were you? I usually go to those close to me- Morganton. Glad you got some feed back. If you prefer, my email is Charlie

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:25 - ID#341297)
Chicken man's thoughts were saying a quiet night.... ( the calm before the storm? ) ....
The reason nobody likes to post a prediction is ...if one is wrong you end up with egg on your face...No problem for a chicken man...been wrong many, many times....easy come...easy go!

Well here goes...with a time limit of next Fri...Going to be in Chicago on Fri too..visiting my son...and I'm going to be at the Board of trade
watching the bonds expire....either I'll be real happy or I'll will tear up my lotto tickets ( puts ) and go home and give it another try!!

Buy t-bond puts ( hoping to sell into a rally...122's,123's,123's...the cheaper the better!...122's @ 4 ticks....objective...118 by Fri noon

Buy cheap gold and silver put's.....hope no gold bugs are trading futures without stops!!!...imaginary stops don't count...let's face it ...if gold trades below 286 on this bull run....the bull just got emasculated!!put that stop in their Mon AM and live with it...if gold opens $10 to $20 lower some AM,you are going to get a nasty order fill way beyond your stop...keep your stop tight

Like coffee puts...don't know any thing about coffee except it tastes good in the morning...but coffee had a nice run and close to the money puts are cheaper than coffee grounds...could be 20-25 pts.

Grain puts...same idea

Want to go long the yen...about 3 pts lower...going to try a one day short for the fun of it...we'll see

If I'm wrong everybody can tar and feather me!!!...Besides..this is not marketing advice ...this is just plain chicken poop....

Another crazy,crazy thought of Chicken man...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:26 - ID#43349)
Ah, I see.

Words do not truly reflect the nature of reality. I presume the quatuum mechanist was aware that "existence" does not occur in the way it is commonly thought of and that therefore the words used to do the commonly thought of way thinking about it should be banned because they were not accurate.

In a way he is right.

On the other hand, perhaps it is not the word but rather the definition which is at fault.

Words are just words. What is is whether it is spoken of or not.

One problem is that words are used to create thoughts. Aster a while we get confused and begin to think that our words are us when in fact we are much more than just the thoughts that echo through our brain.

The Zenist would suggest that one should ban ALL words or else keep them in their place.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:29 - ID#43349)
Saying any word at all states an untruth.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:30 - ID#45173)
Repost: November Interest Rates Change Poll
Please vote on how you think Greenspan will effect rates in November.

So far we're split on whether AG will lower rates or leave them unchanged with one hardcore contrarian voting that Greenspan will raise 'em.

Let's see if Kitco-ites are as good at predicting future rates as short-term changes in the price of gold.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:32 - ID#153110)
My objection was that it was a proposal to ban consciousness, which seems alike to your observations.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:33 - ID#370236)
@Gollum - you're getting dangerously close to Bill Clinton
describing non-sex.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:36 - ID#43349)
That whicb can be spoken of is not it.

When one says,"what is is", he is stating at best an approximation. The river, as you say, having moved on.

The words uttered in the very act of speaking of something are too late.

The something spoken of has moved on.

The cosmos itself has moved on.

The "present moment" as percieved by your mind is itself something that happend moments ago and you have only now become conscious of it.

Yet words have their place.

The trick is to remain aware that one is mistaken.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:38 - ID#210282)

Another thought -- it would be just our luck that WJC makes a big show of bombing Saddam -- say in the Spring of 1999. Lots of fireworks but no real effect.

Then -- Saddam retaliates somewhere in the MidEast or ? six months later when we are no longer watching. He is too smart to follow the Gulf War script again. Unfortunately I have seen nothing to indicate that our current leader has learned anything about foreign policy since he was first elected. He still thinks that domestic popularity is all that matters -- not long term loss or gain.

I don't think WJC is crazy enough to think he will be president for life if he can get Saddam to attack the USA. On the other hand, Hillary might.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:38 - ID#404410)
Mike Sheller and your stock recommendations.
Could you please elaborate on your specific stock recommendations, when you make them. If I merely said that I recommended ABC stock, you'd want to know why, wouldn't you? I like to have some idea why one recommends a security. Thanks!

Gusto Oro
(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:40 - ID#377235)
You've been watching too many episodes of Zenist the Barbarian. --AG

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:42 - ID#43349)
I can see your objection.

The thing is, though, that consciousness happens independantly of words. To speak of something one first has to be aware of that which is to be spoken.

Being aware of it, it is no longer neccessry to do the speaking.

It, however, is very hard to NOT do the speaking without special training.

So we begin to believe that awareness and thinking and apeaking are the same thing.

The are not.

I can think "I am", or I can just sit there just the same.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:44 - ID#43349)
Perhaps we should get a specialist, like Mr. Clinton, to help us with what is is.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:45 - ID#43349)
@Gusto Oro
I'm still missing a few episodes. --G

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:46 - ID#153110)
I was kidding about the second wall. There have to be more casualties from all this volatility.

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:49 - ID#341297)
Gollum @ One hurricane became two!
Think Alan Abelson might be LURKING...Hi Alan..Welcome to Kitco!!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:50 - ID#45173)
Friend at Washington Post says the worry is that defiance signals that Saddam is done developing the weapons his nation has been working on; he is ready to play the game at the next level with the West.

The problem with lobbing cruise missiles into someone else's country, especially when that country has many ideological allies, is that you implicitly define a new rule of warfare with them and their allies: it's ok for them to do likewise, albeit with a less sophisticated delivery system.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:50 - ID#370236)
@Gollum - It's Clinton who needs a specialist (read therapist)
I'd vote for you & mozel ticket in a heartbeat. Regards

ALL: Just buy some Gold. Throw away all charts and analyses.
Downside, maybe 10%
Upside, might be a home run.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:51 - ID#153110)
@BTW @Gollum
BTW, Y2K Panic Suppression Campaign has reached the Chamber of Commerce level of society.
Gollum Proposal, to be more exact, would have banned the expression of consciousness.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:53 - ID#43349)
I think so too. When I see words like "biggest drop in twenty five years" or "lowest in a decade, It has to make me think that more than just one or two hedge funds have found the markets to be operating outside of their expected parameters.

Greenspan and Rubin and the bankers are all wandering around with smiles on their faces, but what is going on behind the curtains?

Sodium Chloride
(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:56 - ID#289259)
An amused lurker
I think the gold bugs are going buggy, waiting for the inevitable crash of the US dollar and other fiat currencies.

It is fun to amuse ourselves while we wait, but there are preparations to make.

Thanks for the levity.

Sodium Chloride

(Sat Nov 07 1998 21:58 - ID#43349)
Ban the expression of consciousness.

I like that.

Not the doing of it, just the expressing of it.

In a sense, that's what the Zen beginner has set before him as a task.

Eventually he learns how to do it.

Then after more years of training, he learns that expressing it is OK.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:00 - ID#370236)
@ NaCl - Welcome aboard. Got H2O?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:01 - ID#412286)
I dont like Clinton as he is too far to the right on economics,though better than a republican, and too far to the left on Social issues ( Hillary OR ELSE ) and thus is allowed to be sexually extreme ( by Hillary ) . Seriously though, the man in light of the election, is slowly becoming a HERO figure. You may not want to hear this but his constant victories over his enemies is beginning to pave the way where he is an epochal figure like the unbelievable well timed resilience in stox. I dont like him for the aforementioned reasons but this is an objective observation, though you may not like it as I do not he is way to hard on entitlements and easy on the rich. We need a Gerhard Schroeder a true progressive who openly and unashamedly says "he will soak the rich for the benefit of the poor"!!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:02 - ID#45173)
Sodium Chloride
You're not making a very good first impression.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:02 - ID#43349)
@Sodium Chloride
Welcome to Kitco.

This is a typical weekend. The markets are closed so there's not a lot of analyzing or price watching to do, so the tpoics wander.

Kind of like brainstorming, sometimes they lead to a usefull idea.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:05 - ID#29048)
Oleman quote from Avid Trader
oleman . . Sat, Nov 7, 8:30PM CST ( -0600 GMT )
One post on a borrowed machine. Havent looked at a chart today, so I'm thinking pretty clearly. The tremendous momentum off the 10/8 low that I and others have noted MUST mean that the 4 yr cycle has bottomed. IMO, this is THE cycle in stocks. If we have bottomed, then we should be aware that the AVERAGE gain in the year following the 4 yr cycle bottom, ha sbeen greater than 50%. Thats FIFTY PERCENT! 50% from here, means about 13,500 DJIA by end of '99. Not predicting. Just stating what history says. BB Mon nite.....................

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:10 - ID#43349)
Interesting. One feels though, that year appraoching Y2K might not be an average year.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:11 - ID#243100)
Has USA TODAY bought this site
Hello? Helloo? Bart, you still here? You are? OK, great. For a moment, I thought the political correct communists had over taken Kitco.

What a relief. Just somewhat reserved in the last few days, I can understand why. Greatest site on the internet. Go GOLD---GO KITCO

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:12 - ID#153110)
No doubt Time-Warner will soon issue a CD of Clinton on the Sax and his legal bills will be covered by the royalties from the adoring masses.

Newt did not follow the Rockefeller Credo which I posted earlier. That was his undoing. You have to talk about "love" and "hope" and "caring" and "sharing" to stay under the American Corporate Socialist umbrella.

"Soak the rich" ? The third way is the violent way, isn't it ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:14 - ID#350145)
clinton-the left and right
it seems like our species has two sub-species: the left and the right. people in either camp talk right past each other. the left can talk to the left and the right can talk to the right, but they seem encapable of understanding each other. it has been the main puzzel in my life. and most countries seem to exhibit the same dichotomy. the main structure of the right is that they like the past and embrace whatever culture they are in. the left seems to like the future and strives for change. i have never seen the right and left talk successfully to each other. so i never expect the right to understand clinton, as the left does not understand reagon.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:18 - ID#34883)
The 3rd Way

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:21 - ID#341297)
Highhopes @ Cinderella's slipper
I read ravenfire's news post this AM

after reading this go to

Very seldom does one read an article and know of a stock that would help the problem be solved...This company is constructing an oil railcar loading facility on the Chinese one's own due diligence

Just a thought...Chicken man...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:22 - ID#43349)
Away for the evening
Good night.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:24 - ID#37463)
TYoung, my fellow paramour of that jealous mistress which we call the law, I must confess I was not kidding and my memory goes back to "Big Trader" but not to "Another" who apparently also posted here on Kitco. Enlighten me at

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:25 - ID#412286)
The populism of the right wing agenda aka 1978-1998 has now ended and this is obvious from the apologetic and compassion tone of the right and the optimistic tone of the right. This election demonstrated a seminal shift to the ( economic ) left which has just started ( the Dem victory did emanate from the "McGovernite fringe but "good ol' LABOR ) . This is comparable to the seminal shift to the right which began with the end of the draft and lowering of US involvement in Viet Nam which began in 1973. That era of a shift to the right ( economically ) is now ending. Roe V. Wade was 1973 and the beginning of the drift to the left in social matters, this too is now ending..witness the anti gay marriage provisions supported in several states..partial term abortion will be next. We are beginning, though it is a babe, a new Progressive economic era and a more conservative social era, which a financial debacle will enhance or maybe it is predicting the debacle ie a sort of historical determinism.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:29 - ID#31868)
this site has a ton of links to the entire planet...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:31 - ID#31868)
Hmmmmmm...this should be it...

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:31 - ID#37463)
I refuse to give in to Clinton. His refusal to resign on shows me his total lack of class and confirms my suspicion of his lust for power. Newt showed me a lot more class by resigning than Clinton has during the six dreadful years he has tormented us with his presidency. Newt accepted blame, though I don't feel the blame was his for the pathetic manner in which the Republican party has failed to capitalize on its advantage during the past few months. I did not ask him to impell himself on his sword but apparently his honor requires that he do so. WJC has no such honor believing that only he is intelligent enough, compassionate enough and charismatic enough to guide us dullards through these frightful straights. I will not follow Don Imus in letting WJC beat down my deep felt resentment and resistance to him.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:33 - ID#370236)
Steady as she goes......

PM's in the doldrums, bonds down some, market up some. Volatility
and nerves boiling. Fed to announce soon on rates.
I'm tired of AG telling us what's gonna be, or N2B.

Where is the next focal point? Anyone here know a D-Day in Brazil?
Japan? Or has the New World Order dealt with ( read taxpayer bailout )
all and any future calamities.

When does the fun stuff start?

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:36 - ID#341297)
Tantalus @ Focal point
IMHO...the bond market is the weak link in the chain

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:42 - ID#411259)
..... Salty .....

Looks like somebody has grabbed your endearing nickname

Does not matter that this is done under the guise of its chemical properties

A grab is a grab is a grab


(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:42 - ID#153110)
Your scenario conforms to the observation that every swing of the pendulum from left to right and vice versa reduces liberty in this country.

Let's just abolish corporations, the fictive person of the corporation, and limited liability altogether. Then, corporations could not exploit the workers and enrich the rich and spoil the environment. Let us also prohibit legal representation for reward. This will end murderers getting off on technicalities. And technicalities becoming rich on the proceeds from the mistress which the brotherhood calls the law.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:45 - ID#184120)
The left looks to the future??? Mole, please read some history! The left is based in totalitarian control. This is NOT looking to the future or forward thinking. It's a very old idea ( slavery ) . The only difference today is that, by and large, chains and whips aren't used. The compelling force is monetary and is usually just as effective as the former.

One more thing, I'm sure that you remember the 'political circle'. You start at one point and call it the 'extreme left', continue drawing the circle until you get to where you started. This point is called the extreme right. Everything else falls in between those two points.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:46 - ID#370236)
@ Chicken man - Arizona is probably one of the best places on this earth
considering the people and the places.

I have some $ in Volatility constrained bonds. Should I bail out? When?
They've treated me pretty well this year. Thanks & Regards

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:50 - ID#153110)
The compelling force for all slavery and servitude is the law and always has been. Whips and chains appear during law-enforcement.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:54 - ID#184120)
With the politcal events that seem to be unfolding of late, the thought that comes to mind is this, be careful for what you wish, you just might get it....

Newt resigning the House Speakership and then his seat in Congress, hmmmm. I wonder who the new bad guy is going to be?

And the markets were 'happy' with the election results because, supposedly, nothing changed. :- ) )

Sometimes one has to wonder what, or who, motivates a person to action. These are interesting times.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:55 - ID#45173)
It ain't so much the things you don't know that get you
in trouble. It's the things you know that just ain't so.
-- Artimus Ward, 1834-1867

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:55 - ID#184120)
These days, they probably appear in the White House to. :- ) )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:56 - ID#244418)
To be or not to be
Mozel: The idea of minimizing the use of the verb "to be" was promoted by the general semantics movement led by Alfred Korzybski ( "Science and Sanity" ) . Their nemesis was Aristotle's syllogism with the word "is" at
its center. They felt it held mankind back by creating all kinds of convoluted, subjective, medieval, deductive, scholastic logic. Science was to replace this--and the verb to be--with inductively based logic. Senator Hayakawa from California was a leader in it. General semantics basically boils down to logical positivism, nothing is true unless it can be scientifically proven. Sounds nice, but it eliminates all knowledge of good and bad, right and wrong, truth, morality, ethics. As such it becomes a foundation of totalitarianism.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:56 - ID#237299)
@ the posts on Saddam: The media hypnotism is working.
"Keep your eyes on the are getting sleepy...veeeery sleepy...your eyes are getting heavvvvy...Saddam is eeevil, veery evil, America is goood, veerry's time to invade again...Saddam is baaad...repeat after me...weapons of maaassss destruction...very very baaad...US battleships...very very goooood...."

Whenever the media trots out some captivating story ( out of the blue ) and it infects all the the papers and news broadcasts, my bulls%%t alarms go off.

I saw an interesting documentary on street conjurers once and the guy was explaining the cup and ball trick and other like illusions, and he was talking a million miles a second, describing the cups and the balls and "now you see it you don't" -while, with his *other* hand all the action was taking place. I think he called it the "fade": Get their attention away from what is really happening. So when this old pony of Saddam gets trotted out, I figure the hand that's doing the action is in Taiwan or Basil or Area 51 or passing some evil legislation that gets ignored.

Look other places. It's not in Iraq.

The emotional score of the diversion is a tip off. Child molestors rate a 10, Saddam scores a 6 or 7- so the magnitude of the thing being hidden is also a 6 or 7.

The more the volume gets cranked up on things like this the more I try scouting out the buried, page 10 stories.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:58 - ID#257253)
You of course mean impale on your sword, something I am well familiar with in gold mining shares. Spoken like a true patriot, and not bad for a lawyer. I share your view on clinton, of no class. What must we go through, in the misery of gold AND clinton; perseverence and patience must win out. But not unless they are right and true. In my opinion.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 22:59 - ID#153110)
Hmmm. That is the site of the office of the Chief Law-Enforcement Officer.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:02 - ID#153110)
@Amazing, Winston
Precisely and precisely so.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:05 - ID#43460)
Tortfeasor, you are right IMHO
I think it may be due to the stubborn resistance of the conservatives to see the menace is not just to the party but to the entire culture. They gave it away when they allowed radicals to assume the name 'liberal' and more reticent liberals to steal the title 'moderate' If you read his posts ROR gives away the iron fist beneath the silk glove. Here are a few new historical URLS I found this weekend.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:09 - ID#350145)
well panda you just made my point
actually, i know my history pretty good - examples: 1 ) right - christians / left - whatever, zen buddism 2 ) right family values -pro life/ left in favor of gay marriages- pro choice 3 ) right - card carring members NRA/ left - ban hand guns 4 ) right - norman vincent peal/ left jean paul satre. last, conservative, panda, to conserve the status quo ( averse to rapid change ( dictionary ) / liberal ( dictionary ) favoring political and social reform. sorry.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:09 - ID#225369)
What is the tax liability for metals produced and hoarded, but not sold by a mining company?

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:12 - ID#341297)
Tantalus @ Bonds
No offence...OK?...I can't imagine a bond of that type...looks to me all bonds are volitale...could be wrong...the T-bonds are sure moving up and down ( mostly down...grin..grin..cachink,cachink ) ....don't trust China not to sell a bunch of billions...esp if the Dali Lama meets with MR.C...that's a no-no acording to the Chinese Officials

Get your lotto tickets....chance to pick up some to have some jingle so one can be part of the greatest equity robbery in history...

This robbery has already taken place in a few countries...Korea,Thailand,Indonesia, USA?

What you seeing? smell rain coming ?

Just a thought...Chicken man..

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:12 - ID#370236)
@ Tantalus Rex - A large bow to the King
and speakin' of skunks...

I was awaken about 1:00am last nite. Walked into that chilly nite to find
my 2 junkyard dogs throwing a raccoon thru mid-air whilst nipping at his
withers. Now, this was and is one pissed-off raccoon, and he's treed about 30 feet high in my pet oak tree as I speak.

He's a cute little feller. Any suggestions?

Go Golf!

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:15 - ID#34883)

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:22 - ID#43460)
et al, I'll give you the secret to American politics
The entire 'Merkan political arena can be summarised by four words. This principle drives the whole darn shooting match: "Liberal girls are easy"
I could spend ten pages expanding it but this is it in a nutshell.

Chicken man
(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:22 - ID#341297)
Tantalus @ Fur Flying
When I was a kid ,we would climb up that ole' tree and shake that ole' Mr.coon out...down he would come and dog vs. coon fight would begin...sure got noisy...only thing to watch out for was never get BETWEEN the dog and coon!!

Those were the days...BTW..My brother-in-law is out hunting coon tonight in IOWA...opening night of coon to see how many of the dumb ones you can get the first night!!

Love to hear those doggies "tree"

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:26 - ID#25490)
cum grano salem
I suspect any 'opposition' to quickly dissolve. Noone GETs saltier than salty.

As one of them old fellers said:

"Some seek gold, but there lives not a man who does not need salt."

So I guess, the more the merrier.

In Salt We Trust

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:27 - ID#247273)
Let's see, here, junkyard one of them named Carrville?.
Call off your dogs... Save that raccoon, he represents the independent spirit. He will go soon enough. good luck.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:27 - ID#370236)
@ Chicken Man - absolutely no offense taken
Your observations most appreciated. If the Dow tanks soon, could bonds
get a spike where I could sell during a flight to quality?

Know how to get rid of a treed raccoon? Maybe a Gila Monster?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:28 - ID#153110)
The morals of women in a conquered country are always loose.

RJ would only chase thongs in Iran once.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:29 - ID#237299)
Your use of the word "hoard" is unusual. I would imagine that an increase in inventory, or an increase in it's *value added* through manufacturing ( in this case bringing to the surface and refining ) is reflected at the top of a profit and loss statement no different than any other inventory: It's taxable as income. However there are probably distinctions made between refined metal and concentrated ore. Most governments are inclined to favor mining in the tax codes as natural resources are an asset to the nation.

But... you should spend a month or two and wade through the tax code to try to ferret this out. ;- )

Or simpler might be to call up one of the mining companies and ask them.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:30 - ID#210282)
Brazil --a major event next week
Tantalus: Apparently the IMF will present its package to Brazil next week some time. Last I heard, the markets responded favorably to the Brazilian congress' favorable vote on their leader's belt tightening proposals. The recent market rally is amazingly strong, despite the drastic falloff of local automobile demand.

Guess it all depends on what the investment community thinks of what the IMF has to offer.

I think also that alot of interest is due on the Brazilian debt by the end of this year. Perhaps others at this site know a more precise date when Brazil must pay up -- or whether the IMF deal has allowed Brazil to delay payment. This would be another time point to watch, though I suspect the 'powers that be' are doing their best to postpone the crisis.

Sure is hard to guess when the other shoe will fall -- probably months or more before this pans out.

Mexico was able to push their debt under the rug from 1995 to present. I thought it was 20 billion they owed in 1995. Now it appears to be 60 billion in unpaid debt. Perhaps the firworks will wait until Mexico asks for another handout, and the IMF shows their empty pockets.

I do not look forward to what seems to be inevitable -- South America will probably have their financial crisis in less than 12 months. If not -- the debt time bomb will be packaged once again -- as a time capsule -- to explode some time in the future.

All of this deferred debt packaging cannot go one forever -- but then I never imagined the US could function with 25 trillion in Federal debt, and 20 trillion in corporate and private debt. All neatly packaged in a time capsule, too. And -- Europe is in worse trouble than the US if you believe data published by 'The Economist'.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:31 - ID#25490)
Here's one for all dog lovers.

Kea So Joo, a.k.a. Dog Meat Soup Kim Yung Soo ( a.k.a. Joey Skaggs ) , President of Kea So Joo, Inc.. sent 1,500 letters to dog shelters around America soliciting all their unwanted dogs for $.10 a pound.

The letter, written in obvious broken English, stated:

"Dog shelter kill million of dog, cost money...Dog shelter need money to operate. Where it get money? Hard to get money. Many people like to eat dog...Where do they get dog?...We buy all dog, regardless of size or color. We prefer big, young strong dog, but we take all dog from your dog shelter. Lot people eat dog...Dog is healthy for you...You make more money, more people happy. You get cleaner air. No burn up dog. No waste dog. People pet no disappear. Everybody happy...Dog no suffer. We have quick death for dog."

Kea So Joo's telephone rang off the hook. The outgoing message, in both Korean and English, was punctuated by yapping dogs in the background. Angry messages and faxes came from dog lovers and humanitarians across the country. The media picked up on the story and, even though none of the phone calls nor faxes were ever returned, many television and newspaper reporters stated that they had indeed spoken with representatives of the company and they were shocked at what they discovered. Joey shared some of the hilarious messages and faxes he received during his Dog

To have a look out those do the clicking thing..

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:35 - ID#370236)
@ Hombre de Pollo
The man knows bonds and raccoon behavior. Hmmmmmmm

I'm not climbing that tree 30 feet to swat no raccoon.
Get nervous on tall ladders!

Jim Bob
(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:40 - ID#249395)
gold shorts
Received the annual report from Randgold today. Of course, a lot has transpired since the EOY March, '98. However, the Chairman's letter is alway more current. The interesting comment by Kebble was that he thinks the total gold short position is 14000 tons. This is well beyond Veneroso's estimate and all the others I have taken note of. When will the catalyst to force massive short covering occur? Or, will we just evolve into a multi-year uptrend?
( From lurking at this site, I had hoped to learn more about why people favored certain PM stocks over others. I lurk here because I'm hoping to gain an edge. The fundamentals which have been multi-year against PM investors are decreasing in intensity and perhaps, changing trend. After all the losses incurred, I am intent on the most prudent path for recovery and I wish there was a higher degree of rational towards that end than what I generally am scanning. Or is it just the weekend. This is just one stop, but there is more potential here than is utilized. )

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:41 - ID#153110)
@aurator @BBL
Priceless. Joey is a genius of the Youth International Party ( Yippie ) school of media management.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:43 - ID#225236)
Obsidian: (Saddam and Weapons of Mass Destruction)
Several points missing which must be stated:

1. For many, many years ( since 1920ties ) US Presidents were yielding unlimited powers which were originally supposed to be used by the President after the US Congress declared a war  these powers were extended to allow the President declare Extraordinary National Emergency

2. Under these powers, the President rules by executive order and can make many decisions, enter international treaties, etc, without the need of the legislature participating; also the federal powers are extended well beyond those originally intended. Among other things, in absence of the state of war or national emergency, each new expansion of the federal powers would have to go through the constitutional amendment process ( legislature of each state voting on it ) .

3. Until the fall of the Soviet Union, the Ruskies were the extraordinary national emergency.

4. After the fall of the Soviet Union, US corrupted power elite had a problem  the extraordinary reasons for national emergency no longer existed and their extraordinary powers would have to be surrendered unless a new emergency was found.

5. Thank God for Saddam Hussein ( and Later Ossama bin Laden ) . Now the US can blame the extraordinary national emergency on them and the weapons of mass destruction.

6. One note -- ever since the Middle Ages anybody knew how to cook and spread diseases ( biological weapons ) -- how come it suddenly is an "extraordinary" threat?!

Repeat after me:

That is the ticket!!! If you repeat that enough times, it will sink in! The majority Americans are the dumbest, sorry SOBs on the face of the earth for putting up with this.

Do not take my word for it! Read the Exalted Masters of the Universe declarations of national emergency on the White House publication servers and the laws in questions in the Cornell Law Schools server.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:47 - ID#370236)
@ AZAU - Your advice well noted. As i said, he's a cute little feller
and I've never seen one before around here. An improving biosphere, yes?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:49 - ID#237299)
Aurator: To salt or not to salt..that is the question.
Earlier this summer I came down with a prolonged, two month mystery illness that made me fear I had the plague. ( insert every hypochondiac disease )

It got to the point where I was fatiqued simply walking across the room and nearly fainted several times.

Finaly, fearing the worst, lets see..leukemia! that's it. No, brain tumor! etc etc I went heavy hearted to the doc. Blood tests run. Days later he calls to tell me I have a *serious* sodium defficiency.

Cure: Stop drinking fluids- eat tons of salt. 24 hours later- just like new. Jeeze!

Forget Gold-Got NaCL2 ?

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:50 - ID#247273)
you have nailed the truth, but no one answers. Ha! They will never admit such truth. Testicular truth is a menace to those that would be the masters. The greatest scam in all of history....and so it goes.


(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:50 - ID#210282)
EJ: I think your newsmedia friend is right. Saddam is not weak anymore --and WJC would be unwise in picking a fight with him -- with just the UK and Israel.

We would not only be ineffective in bombing Saddam with our US missles, but we would lose all remaining local Arab support in the process.

This time -- if Saddam retaliates by attacking Israel after WJC does something silly -- there would be no local support from other nations. And -- the US would probably not be able to talk Isreal out of responding with a counterattck.

I do not like this one bit -- I hope that WJC is not dumb enough to give Saddam the opportunity to lob a few missles into Israel -- even if they are ineffective at causing any damage.

Our WJC might be dumb enough to trigger a war between Isreal and Saddam -- if he thought it would increase his popularity at home.

Did you hear that the White House just proposed publically that they wanted to send $100 million worth of equipment to anti-Saddam forces? That is ludicrous, given that it was our wishy-washy foreign policy that wiped out almost all organized resistance in Iraq about 2 years ago. Now there is no one to give the equipment to. And, now that we have told the world what should be a secret event, Saddam knows about the plan.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:51 - ID#350194)
Going to the Dogs!
aurator, good buddy, my scrawny little house rat isza abouts 12 years old anna coughin' evertday ( we don't live in No clean aira place a lika you, but inta sum stinkee olda town a like'a Chicagee or Duhtroits, or sumtin' alika LA, ora News Yaark, 'scalled Ta'rana'. S'palloooted. Dog Can't breth rite, Hell's a Bell's, zeeezus! 'a ze sheeple's can'ts'a breezze a riites - waas' a pouursa' boys a gonna Doooes?
Tell's me where do save a dog frums and I a pickee ups reels faaas like. Tanks buddy.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:54 - ID#370236)
@ JTF - a welcome voice from the unmentionable, South America
It sure seems quiet from down south lately. Maybe there is a fear of mentioning it, eh?
Your post most appreciated.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:57 - ID#386245)
Fellow goldbugs--you aren't going to like this!!!
I am gradually coming to the conclusion that we are ON THE PRECIPICE OF A MASSIVE DEFLATIONARY COLLAPSE.

Think about these apples:

Your $500,000 house worth $100,000 or less ( IF there are any buyers ) .
Your shares ( DOW/S&P ) worth 10% of today's values.
Soup kitchens and work lines for the fortunate DEVELOPED countries.
National work schemes ala FDR's chain gangs.
Widespread civil disorder in 'less civilized' countries and perhaps even 'the home of the free'.

These dismal conclusions have been dawning on my inflated ego for some time. I have always considered that my family was warmly coccooned in our Aussie utopia. I can see it all coming to an end. I don't just mean Y2K. I'm not just talking about inflated share values, overpriced US bucks, inflated real estate. It is the confluence of all of these things. Excess can only be sustained for a finite time. We are living WAY BEYOND OUR MEANS!!!! It cannot go on indefinitely. It won't.

What brought this on???

Today I went to a 'SALE'. The vendors were selling Asian goods at @5-10% of the prices in the stores. I mean CHEAP!!!! Not the most fantastic quality, but useable, serviceable items for a tiny fraction of what they cost in 'normal' stores. Chinese, Indonesian, Indian, Taiwanese boxes out the back ( I had a peek to see from whenceth they originated ) .

I bought a set of chromium/vanadium tools of reasonably good quality for 10% of the 'normal' cost. Lots of other items of reasonable quality at ridiculous prices for our overstuffed, overfed and soon to go on a diet society.

There is a change going on here of radical proportions. The high and mighty are about to fall. Western consumers are about to come to terms with what is 'reality' for the majority of the world. YOU DON'T NEED ALL THE CRAP YOU'VE GOT. You ( and the world ) cannot afford it!!!

When the prices ABOVE are a fact of life, you will regret not having taken defensive actions earlier.

Get out of debt.
Sell shares.
Pay off real estate.
Learn to live on less.

I have a ten point check list on my bulletin board. I see it every day. It is not original. I copied it. If I can remember the author, I'll let you know.

1 ) Don't shop
2 ) Live within your means
3 ) Take care of what you have
4 ) Wear it out
5 ) Do it yourself
6 ) Anticipate your needs
7 ) Research value,quality,durability and multiple use
8 ) Get it for less
9 ) Buy used
10 ) Follow the steops of this program.

Now for the part you aren't going to like:
Under this scenario I can see the Price of Gold going down to $250 or even $200 or less.
Now for the good news:
EVERYTHING else will be 1/10th or less its former cost.
Gold will still be the BEST investment.
Cheers, Nick.

(Sat Nov 07 1998 23:58 - ID#43460)
Great Depression link