Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

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(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:01 - ID#284255)
Net chatter
Economy, Y2K,
Peace Treaties-Signs of the Times
by Jason Dunlap

Putting all the many, disconnected world events and circumstances into
some comprehensive picture of the future is becoming more and more
difficult. There is so much important stuff going on, I can't begin to
tell you, but what I can tell you is that I have been getting more
confirmation from independent sources on each category of information.
I've heard from many sources, who are both psychic, remote-viewers, and
eye-witnesses that there is a sudden drop in UFO sightings and contacts,
yet many have reported imminent plans by extraterrestrials to make some
obvious display, as a statement to humanity, within the next few months.
It has also been made clear that people in "high places", world-wide, have
been informed, by the extraterrestrials, that these events will take place
and the governments do not intend to tell the public.
If such an event happens, especially in this upcoming holiday season, the
imaginations of the general public will likely create many unexpected
events, effecting the stock markets, world-wide economic activity, and
political authority, in one way or another. Such an event has, no doubt,
been well planned for and can lay the foundation for governmental authority
to believe it has a mandate to control everything, by any means possible.
If alien contact should happen between now and January, it will not
precipitate a smooth transition into galactic brotherhood. It will have a
negative effect on many things, and I don't think it can be helped, because
we are not heading, as a world, in a direction that will ever make such
contact easy, and comfortable.
The problem isn't you and me. The secret government is not too concerned
with what you will do, they are concerned with what Iran and China will do.
They will believe that Islam, Christianity, and Atheism could suddenly see
this as the last chance to force their beliefs on each other, and they have
great military power backing them. Most of us won't be directly involved,
but that's how it always is. Most people don't fight wars, armies do, but
the havoc the armies of today can create is unimaginable unless they are
stopped. I don't know how you stop an army, short of killing it. I'm sure
there is a way, but I'm not smart enough to think of one. You certainly
can't talk it over with them. They'll be too busy to give you an audience.
When the aliens begin to reveal their presence, we will be on a non-stop,
out-of-control locomotive that will take us to the other side of the most
chaotic, mind-confusing, spirit wrenching experience this world has ever
known. It won't be some gradual introduction to a new way of living. It
will be a sudden thrust into a new life, and until we come to grips with
it, there will be turmoil. So that's something that could happen before 1999.
The Middle-East Peace talks have concluded with an agreement between the
Palestinians and Israelis. This is a good thing, I suppose, but I have the
feeling that no matter what was really discussed and agreed to, it was
necessary for the public to think something important had happened. After
all Clinton has been through, he had to have a "win" with this peace accord
or he'd be doomed. Then there's the matter of the aliens revealing
themselves, and the admonition to all governments, to quiet things down,
end all the fighting, and get ready to deal with the "coming of the
extraterrestrials", sooooon! The problem is that agreements make for a
whole new list of things to fight over, and the opportunity for both sides
to prove the other side wicked, deceitful, and untrustworthy. Pay close
attention to any reports having to do with the "Dome of the Rock" in
Jerusalem. This is a sacred site for both Arabs and Jews. It is where
both, Abraham and Mohammed received revelation and instructions from God.
Keep an eye on this situation, and if it looks like it could blow up, get
more serious about surviving "the change".
Y2K, as the year 2000 computer glitch has been tagged, is looming in the
very near future. I told you several months ago that this situation
wouldn't be taken seriously till around Fall of '98. I told you that you
would notice a sudden escalation of reports and information about it that
would continue through 1999, the most serious consequences being felt in
October of 1999. I was right. It has started. Over the last few months,
there have been many reports concerning this issue, and none of them have
painted a rosy, don't worry about it, picture. Recently, on Nightline, the
subject was covered, and a high government official said that things will
be serious, and that it won't be fixed in time.
I've had recent conversations with programmers who are working on this
problem for major corporations, and they agree that the problem is not
going to go away, that it is going to cause monumental chaos that will last
for a long time, and that there is no chance we will avoid wide-spread
communication failures all over the world. This is not wild-eyed, Chicken
Little, the sky is falling, bullshit! I know about this stuff and I even
have a hard time believing it. Somehow I have this notion I'll be able to
figure what to do about it before it's seriously affects me.
The most serious effect will be loss of electrical power and other
utilities, followed by complications in transferring money transactions and
important records. It has been predicted that congress will pass a "Flat
Tax Law" before this situation can affect the IRS, who is not Y2K
compliant. If the true negative effects is believed by Wall Street and
major industrial giants, this could trigger an economic collapse,
institution of a new world-wide currency, and upset the balance of power.
There has been predictions, from many psychics, viewers, and insider
politicians, that Bill Clinton will be impeached, and shot. Much of this
was stated way before we knew anything about the current scandals. Recent
visitations by Angels to two separate people, revealed identical scenarios.
They said the Angel showed them that Bill Clinton is impeached and shot.
They said the Trilateral Commission will be behind it because Clinton will
have become an impotent world leader, and a terrible embarrassment.
World-wide, economic collapse will be well on its way by then, precipitated
by Arab and Chinese leaders resisting and rejecting the United States
authority in any matters. They will feel empowered by the seeming,
political weakness of the US, due to the Clinton scandal. This will shake
the stock markets. It will be revealed that the Asian money problem is
worse than anyone expected, that corruption is rampant. The Angels said
that money could be worthless before the end of this year if Clinton is
impeached before 1999. This seems unlikely, though. They said that this
bleak vision of our near future is not set in stone and may not unfold
exactly as envisioned, but it is like we are on a run-away train, careening
down a mountain. It is clear where it is heading, and where it will crash.
The only thing to do is get out of the way, the best way you can. The
train won't be stopped, the crash cannot be avoided, but the resulting
consequences can be changed by preparing, and praying. The entire context
of the visions was one of a rapidly changing world where some wars will
break out, a few nuclear bombs will be set off in the United States,
martial law being imposed, and a pretty rough time for the next 2 years, or
so. By all accounts, it looks to me like those who live in isolated, rural
areas, away from the cities, and able to feed and shelter themselves, will
have the best chance of dealing with all this in relative safety and
comfort. It might be a good idea to plan on going camping for the rest of
your life.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:04 - ID#25490)
Something here for almost everyone
Welcome to kitco! Good to have you about, never know when well need a lift. Your handle sound like a song from Joni Mitchell, so all the Torontians ( Torontonians? -what you fellas call yourselves? ) wont forget your name. I guess youre from NY?
That quote from Faust nach golde drangt/am golde hangt/doch alles You lost me a little, could you translate it again? Anyone?

It defeated the Babel fish too, at

Your Sun Nov 08 1998 04:01: are you trying to get me in trouble? Mate, cant call sheep #4 darling cos #38 gets very jealous.

Tantalus & Tantalus R.
Are you two and not one? My analog word thing defines:
tantalus as a case in which bottles may be locked with their contents tantalizingly visible
Tantalus is the father of Pelops, punished in Hades for his misdeeds by having to stand in water that recedes when he tries to drink it and under fruit that move away as he reaches out for it.
Which one ( or two ) are you ) ?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:06 - ID#408170)
I relate to the "Chop Wood Haul Water" guy.
During hurricane HUGO a few years back I chopped
wood ( 40 ) trees down in the yard, and hauled water
from pool to toilets , for 4 weeks. I can do it...I don't
like to!!
I'll be ready for this one!! RB

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:12 - ID#251175)
dome resources
anyone out there who has any information on Dome Resources, I think its an Australian listed company

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:14 - ID#153102)
@The Equity & Bond Markets
What is new and different is the existence of financial instruments to hedge risk. This is why market valuations bear no relationship to anything except maybe funds available. The Mutual Fund manager who is selling calls and buying puts is fearless. He will remain so until fearful of the counterparty risk of his hedge, the chance that the piton in the wall will not be there to arrest plunging value. The failure of hedge funds and the default of countries creates fear of counterparty failure. The margin in derivatives is like having all the climbers on the mountain roped to one piton.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:19 - ID#284255)
Net chatter
As an Officer for the Federal Government, let me tell you that they do not
have the peoples interest at heart. They are interested in preserving the
government head as a whole, and have secured places and provisions for
their selves. When all hell breaks loose, and people are directed according to
zip codes to areas for their safety, most of these places lead to
desolation. No provisions, etc. and will end up in chaos. For it is
better that the majority of the people die, and preserve the government that they
may be organized and prepared to pick up the pieces to rebuild the nation.
They will not come out and directly say as to what is ahead. They are
afraid of creating a panic, they want the people to know, that everything
is in control, and will stress the importance of preparing for local disasters only.

I say to you. Follow the instinct of your intelligence. Be prepared, in
all areas, secure a safe place for your family, with the necessary
provisions, without panic. Keep in mind that most people feel secure in
numbers; however my counsel is to be aware as to who you want to let know
of your security, and provisions, remember the welfare of your family is of
most importance.

Don't blame me
I'm only the postman.

Due diligence is required.

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:28 - ID#24135)
smart guys ..
to all ..
The Stratfor article is excellent. These guys are
very bright. Write well too.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:35 - ID#284255)
Dome Res is an ozzie mining co with an active mine up in Papua New Guinea.

They have a controlling stake in it with Union Mining.

I haven't kept up to date but I think they were producing about 100,000 oz per annum.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:53 - ID#280214)
Nick@C at 21:09 - thanks
The idea of this "Rite of Passage" to the next millenium just came to me as I was writing. Sometimes I surprise myself.
There are a lot of people that won't be able to make the cut ( I hope ) .

Shadowfax at 23:49
Your post is the essence of the composting toilets but it is a lot cheaper than the fiberglass & plastic, engineered and approved versions that some government codes require. After Y2K - screw the gov't codes!
There is info out there on the proper Carbon/Nitrogen ratio. That is why the sawdust and kitchen waste - to balance the N in the urine. If it stays aerobic you get no noticeable smell. I was surprised at the amount of liquid - too much water and it may go anerobic and stink ( though if THAT is done right you then have a methane generator ) .

Black Gold - for growing stuff. Modern advice is too grow feedstock then eat the critters, not to use the stuff for vegetables. But Asians did it that way for centuries or maybe millenia.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 00:58 - ID#344326)
@ sharefin
Who is Jason Dunlap? I'd appreciate any more info. TIA

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:17 - ID#284255)
Sorry mate, I don't know
It was sent to me via email.

Wacky - spooky or just plain scary^o-o^

I am seeing a few threads like this.
This may be the way the scenario unfolds. But I very much doubt that
those Mormon leaders said anything but 1 ) strengthen your families, 2 )
get out of debt and 3 ) get your storage. It is the same message they
have been preaching for many years.
The economic collapse, the earthquakes and the UN troops are based on a
very famous dream that has been shared for a couple of years.
Incidently, the precursor event was the death of the dream lady's
mother-in-law who is reported to have passed away earlier this month. As
the dream goes, after her death, then comes the deliberate economic
collapse, followed by a moderate quake in the Salt Lake Valley. This is
followed in a couple of weeks by a massive quake which will break dams
in the mountains which leads to the troops which make Utah a kill zone.
There's more but if this much comes to pass, heaven help us all.
A close friend of mine attended a regional LDS conference last month in
which President Faust ( of the First Presidency ) and Elder Holland ( of
the Quorum of the 12 Apostles ) basically stated "you have one year to
get ready" . The economic collapse has nothing to do with Y2K. It will
be brought about by the international coterie of bankers and power
brokers. It will be complete and totally devastating to our way of

But that is not all. There will be terrible earthquakes that will begin
in Utah and will cause immeasurable havoc. The UN will be called upon
to "keep the peace" because of the looting, but they will be
instrumental in slaughtering thousands.

There is more bad news, but people probably can't even handle what I've already stated.
Yes, this is sadly, but likely true. I met alot fine LDS folks
tonight with their trucks, loading food. That's another reason I
say, be ready by March 31, 1999.

Has everyone filled out the Y2k questionaire?
Top of the page.
So far there seems to be a lot of pessimists.

Y2K England to shut down a dozen days.

Was at a shop today [10-29] and TV was on 700 club and they replayed a major station's recent news announcement,
It said that England was prepareing its politics and forces to handle a
TOTAL shut down for 11 to 12 days for y2k.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:21 - ID#258195)
@sharefin re Lease Rates Data
I dredged through 90 back numbers of the FT, did all the calculations of subtracting A from B to get C 700 times and put the data you asked for up at 16:44 yesterday. Did you see it? Sorry, but I dod not use E-Mail as a matter of principle.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:26 - ID#238422)
Reify, your post 22:02.
You are right, my brother. At ome time somebody
at this side raised a question if Old Gold who
just loves to call himself Jewish, is indeed Jewish...
Reminds me of Ziva, "Jewish woman", who ABSOLUTELY
admired Saddam..."She" took off real fast...after
"she" learned something...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:27 - ID#238422)
Reify, correction:
"ome"=some and "side"=site

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:41 - ID#284255)
Only for those who are concerned.

Email Chatter:
y2k and Galaxy 5 satellite, a rumour that can be tested shortly

A man that I personally know which is on the "Year 2000 Team" for
a large manufacturing company that has 8 plants in the U.S. has personally
told me many-many things about the year 2000 situation. None of them sound good.
He just told me today , in person, that there will be a year 2000 test
done on Galaxy 5 satellite on this November 17, 1998.
Galaxy 5 satellite runs 40% of the telephone communications, 50% of
the television satellite feeds, and 30% of the communications for the banks.
He told me in person that this satellite is expected to have a 90% chance of total failure
and will never communicate again.
He also told me that if a failure does happen, the government will blame this failure
on the Leonid meteor shower, which is to happen on that same day,
instead of the real truth that the year 2000 test caused the failure.
The government has this planned on that date so in case of the
failure of Galaxy 5 because of the year 2000 tests situation,
the citizens will never know until it is to late that it really was the
year 2000 problem. They are very worried that if they told the
truth that the year 2000 test really caused the failure, the truth
would cause a major awakening of the citizens about year 2000
and that would cause a run on the banks and also would cause massive
chaos at the grocery stores.
The below response is again from the same man as the other, ( y2k and
Galaxy satellite ) , THIS IS NOT A JOKE, This man is very trustworthy and
works very, very close on many top secret projects, a few of you will know of
whom this man is if you know me fairly well.
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Do I understand this correctly? Are all these communications going
to possibly go out permanently this November? Or just temporarily
during the test? And come on again until January 1,2000?
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
With regard to the governments reaction to the Y2K problem, I was told last
week by a very reliable source with connections to Ft. Sill that the
military is dispatching 130 specially trained urban warfare teams to
cities where they anticipate having problems, should the worse case scenarios
actually occur.

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:42 - ID#24135)
.. I dont trust anybody now ..
for my brother Oris ..
Your suspicions of "old gold"'s true Jewishness are
troubling me .. You also reminded me of my old
nemesis ZIVA .. who claimed to be Jewish but was
clearly an Iraqi provocative agent spreading
misinformation throughout the world.
I now wonder if my mother in law is REALLY Jewish.
All she has going for her is her NAME ( probably a
fake ) and wide knowledge of Jewish jokes .. and you
know .. it's funny .. she doesnt really LOOK Jewish.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:46 - ID#344326)
thanks for the response Sharefin....
I did a search and found a newsletter he writes, "Center of Attention" Some years ago I was browsing through a New Age bookstore. I happened to buy three books that looked interesting. One was a recommendation, the other two, I just picked up. The one I sought out was about the Mayans. Their calendar runs out on December 21, 2012. Another book was written by a physicist "The White Hole in Time" and the third was a "channeled" book called "The Starseed Transmissions" All three said the same thing, although in slightly different ways. The basic premise is that the Planet Earth is about to go into a trasformation. This trasformation will culminate on December 21, 2012. The idea is the same as Teilhard de Chardin, an "Omega Point". A computer model generated the same date based on an rate of ingression of novelty into the world. The computer model was developed by a gentleman named Terence McKenna. He took hallucingenic plants in South America and was told by some beings to go to a particular Hexagram in the I Ching. Somehow, he put together a mathematical formula and came up with the same exact date. Got to love it. And for those of you reading this, I am not Ziva, nor am I drunk. I'm just another crazy Kitcoite.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:47 - ID#284255)
Many thanks
I have yet to read back that far.
But will go and get it now.

And once it's in I'll repost the chart.

Understand re email.
Echalon's everywhere.

Thanks once again, t'is much appreciated.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:49 - ID#344326)
one thing though...
my trasformation needs a transformation.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 01:49 - ID#25490)

Plse post link to this ( whatever it is ) that has kitcocitizens abuzz...TIA

(Mon Nov 09 1998 02:04 - ID#344326)
aurator...this might be it....
Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
November 9, 1998

1998 Elections Redefine Will Redefine U.S. Policies

The past week has demonstrated that Bill Clinton is the most
extraordinary politician of our time. He took a draw in the 1998
by-elections in which the Republicans retained control of both
houses of Congress, and managed to define it as an overwhelming
defeat for the Republicans and a major personal victory for
himself. The generally accepted consensus was that the elections
ended any chance of an impeachment of the President. As pure
icing on the cake, the elections destroyed his archenemy, Newt
Gingrich and with it, redefined the Republican Party.

The President achieved his tremendous victory by defining the
basic issue as whether having sex with Monica Lewinsky was or was
not an impeachable offense. He was actually aided in this by Ken
Starr and the Republican right wing, which in fact did regard
having sex with Monica Lewinsky as being an impeachable offense.
The issue of lying under oath became a subsidiary matter. The
really critical issue: whether the President raised funds from
Chinese and Indonesian government and commercial sources in
return for skewing U.S. foreign policy in their favor was shoved
off to another investigation where it languishes, mostly
forgotten. This was the true tail wagging the dog: Monica
Lewinsky's tail wagged a dog of an investigation.

How was this permitted to happen? The cultural conservatives in
the Republican Party simply failed to understand that the
dominant culture in the United States draws a fundamental
difference between public character and private behavior. Most
Americans were personally offended by the President's behavior,
but did not translate the private failure into something that
defined the President. Clinton understood this. He allowed his
enemies to do exactly what they wanted to do: paint Clinton as a
degenerate womanizer. He allowed them to win that battle,
knowing that he would win the war, since being a degenerate
womanizer was not an impeachable offense. Clinton sandbagged the
Republicans. The Republicans then sandbagged themselves by
permitting the elections to become a referendum not on whether
Clinton was a degenerate womanizer ( that was already conceded )
but whether he should be impeached over it. They then allowed
the Democrats to define a draw as a victory, and the results sent
Gingrich packing his bags.

There are two domestic political results here. The Christian
Right sees itself as engaged in a struggle for the cultural soul
of the United States. They have just been handed an overwhelming
defeat. The culture that won this battle was the secular,
hedonist culture that holds that what people do of their own free
will behind closed doors not only is their own business, but does
not in any way effect public life. The inability of the
Christian Right to bring down a President caught literally with
his pants down will be seen as a signal that the Christian Right
simply doesn't have the power to define the important issues. If
they could not bring down Bill Clinton over admitted sexual
misconduct, they are simply not as powerful as they would like to
think they are. Their influence in the Republican Party will
diminish after this, or the Republics will slip back into
minority status.

The second political result is the effective collapse of feminism
as a political force. Feminists savaged Clarence Thomas as being
unfit for the Supreme Court because a former employee of his,
Anita Hill, provided uncorroborated testimony that on several
occasions he had asked her out on dates and that he had even made
several dirty jokes in her presence. Feminists seriously
regarded this as evidence that Thomas was unfit to sit on the
Supreme Court. Clinton was charged ( with certainly at least as
much evidence as Anita Hill brought forward ) with exposing
himself to an employee ( Paula Jones ) , groping another employee
( Kathleen Willey ) , and having an affair with young student doing
an internship in the White House ( Monica Lewinsky ) . Where lesser
charges were enough to mobilize feminists against Thomas, the
charges against Clinton were not seen as sufficient to demand his
resignation. In fact, feminists argued that the good Clinton
did the feminists outweighed whatever personal misconduct he
engaged in. In other word's, powerful liberals are to be held to
different standards than conservatives.

The feminists have now created the Clinton Test for sexual
harassment. Unwanted sexual advances, actual exposure of private
parts, and taking advantage of a powerful office to seduce young
women, do not constitute sexual harassment if you support the
feminist agenda. Asking employees out on dates and telling dirty
jokes in front of them does constitute sexual harassment if you
are on the feminist hit list. The utter cynicism of the
feminists will cripple the movement for a generation. No one
will take seriously NOW's calls for greater protection of women
in the workplace after their refusal to condemn Bill Clinton.

This is the interesting outcome of the elections. The two wings
of the cultural wars, the Christian Right and feminists, have
both suffered massive damage. The ability of the Christian Right
to strike fear into the hearts of politicians has been severely
diminished, certainly on a national basis. The moral and
intellectual credibility of their main opponents, the Feminist
Left has also been shattered. Thus we will make an extreme but
we think defensible statement: the cultural wars that have
defined much of the nation's politics since about 1980 are over.
Both sides have lost and have lost decisively.

If this is true, then the battles that energized the Christian
Right and the Feminist Left, but which left the center generally
uneasy and unengaged, should slowly decline in importance.
Abortion is, of course, the core issue. Issues like pornography,
on which both flanks agreed and which failed to excite the rest
of the spectrum should also decline in importance. In short, a
new political agenda should be emerging in time for 2000. What
will that agenda be?

It is increasingly clear that Bob Livingston of Louisiana will be
the next Speaker of the House of Representatives. That means
that the Republican leader of the House will be from the Deep
South, along with the Republican leader of the Senate, Trent
Lott. This is an extremely dangerous situation for the
Republicans, who have just been devastated by cultural
conservatism. But there is a reverse twist to this. Precisely
because both Livingston and Lott come from the deep south and
have strong credentials among the powerful Christian Right within
the Republican Party, they have more room for maneuver within the
Party than others might have. Moreover, both Lott and Livingston
are more creatures of Washington than the South by now, and we
should remember that Washington won this election. They will be
able to define a new agenda without alienating the Christian
Right. They can lighten up on family values if they have another
issue that the Christian Right resonates to but that has broader

That issue is economic nationalism. Bob Livingston was the key
figure in the recent debate over an $18 billion payment to the
IMF for use in addressing the global economic crisis. While some
in the Party wanted to block the payment altogether and while the
President was simply in favor of it, Livingston crafted a
solution which permitted the money to be paid if the IMF
underwent massive reforms that would actually change its very
nature. Rather than supporting proposals for increased power to
the IMF bureaucracy, Livingston crafted legislation that both
supported the IMF while decreasing its power. He forced Clinton
into accepting what was, when viewed carefully, a very radical
piece of legislation. Given the new proposals being floated for
$80 billion bailouts and the creation of a larger, more powerful
bureaucracy to control international currency controls, proposals
almost but not quite creating a global central bank, Livingston
has already shown himself to be a powerful opponent to Clinton
and Rubin.

It is interesting to note that issues like the power of the IMF
are increasingly motivating the Christian Right as much as
cultural issues. There is a deep and growing distrust on the
part of the Christian Right of the trend toward multilateral
solutions, like NAFTA, IMF, UN, WTO and so on, that the Democrats
are so fond of. What is most important, is that this sense of
unease is not unique to the Christian Right. Dick Gephardt
represents a serious faction within the Democratic Party that is
equally dubious about what is seen as a transfer of power from
the United States Government to multilateral organizations.

Now, the most important issue facing Congress when it returns
will be the future of the international financial system founded
at Bretton Woods. There are proposals being made to dramatically
increase the power of organizations like the IMF and World Bank,
transferring regulatory powers over world financial markets into
their hands. These proposals are being made by France, Germany
and Japan. The Clinton administration has recently appeared to
be increasingly in favor of these changes. These proposals will
rip Washington apart. They may well be supported by major banks
looking for a way out of the crisis. Free traders who have
tended to line up with the banks, like Jim Leach who chairs the
House Banking committee, will be torn between his ideological
loyalties and his institutional proclivities. Labor Democrats
like Gephardt will be opposed to any such institutional shift.
The Christian Right will be utterly opposed. Corporate
Republicans will tend to favor the proposals. In short, there
will be chaos.

With the cultural wars at an end, the new defining issue in the
United States will be economic nationalism versus
internationalism. This is an issue that cuts between parties.
Pat Buchanan and Bill Gephardt are on one side, Newt Gingrich and
Bill Clinton are on the other. But Newt Gingrich is gone. Pat
Buchanan is a pale reflection of his old self. In fact, both
parties are up for grabs. It is not clear which party will
become the party of economic nationalism. However, the dynamics
surrounding Bob Livingston's elevation to power seem to indicate
that he will take the mantle of economic nationalism and run with
it. It will protect his Christian Conservative flank while
allowing him to define the difference between Republicans and
Democrats. Livingston could turn out to be a pivotal figure in
American history.


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(Mon Nov 09 1998 02:49 - ID#75206)
Thanks for the info from Gary North on Galaxy 5 satellite and Y2K
problem. Keep us posted. This could be very interesting.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 02:54 - ID#25490)
thanks for your post. I regret asking the Q. I know that such things are v impt in continental USA, it's just that continental USA aint so important. MEGO.

Enjoy your posts on alternative reality/predictions, hope you keep em coming.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:05 - ID#25490)
Galaxy 5/ Y2K // Hoax?? How can we tell??

very serious questions I have for the minds@kitco

How do we discern 'truth' from 'fiction'?

On the Leonid shower//Galaxy 5 synchronious ( perhaps ) event with Y2K Testing?

We have been forewarned ( or hoaxed ) of a possible confluence of influence for testing.

See sharefin's Nov 09 1998 01:41

How can we objectively, using all the magnificent human resources available to us, as kitcocitizens, know if the test y2K/Galaxy5 is a hoax BEFORE it occurs?

How do we know if it is a hoax AFTER if occurs?

We have until Nov 17 to "put our heads together" to unravel this one. Perhaps, it is indeed an intellectual test of Y 2K

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:06 - ID#386245)
Sharefin@tell me the truth!!
C'mon finnie--there are THREE of you, right??
Morning shift.
Afternoon shift.
Graveyard shift.
All trying to outdo each other with fantastic, useful info for Kitcoholics. It is not possible for one person to find so much good stuff!! He would never get any sleep.
Auracious-- my apologies to #38.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:11 - ID#25490)
The Curmudgeon's credo:

'I will remain among.those who are just not "civilized" in their rantings... not
"nice" in their advocacies...not "PC" in their spoken and written word....I'm willing to pay the price to avoid
dronehood. '

Baaahhh Humbugg
LGB said it before me.

takin' the oath

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:11 - ID#333126)
nick@c re: thoughts on the fin that shares
i think he is the first successful artificial intelligence program. continually running, never needing sleep. hangs out on kitco to find intelligent discussion, tries to make a buck or so on the side...

makes mistakes once in a while to trick us into believing he is human ... even does a decent webpage or two.

:- )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:17 - ID#25490)
#38 accepts your apologies, she says she thinks you're cute, and "Would you like to slip on a tight jersey?" she wants to know.

Know anything about Dome Resources? aussidave ( who I'm guessing is a compatriot of yours ) asked about it earlier.

R the roos still@golfcourse?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:18 - ID#333126)
the US confidence level
what's that they say? not since the 20's? hmm... ... ...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:31 - ID#210114)
Mixed Report on Gold
From grains to gold, the
commodities outlook is depressing

By Stephen Wyatt

Commodity markets, from gold to grains, are hovering at
extremely depressed levels awaiting some direction from
the global economy.

The recession in Japan and Asia continues, but its spread
at the moment has slowed. G7 moves to refund the IMF
and the IMF's aid package to Brazil steadied Latin
American economies.

The stalwarts against a global economic meltdown, the
US and Western Europe, while slowing are still relatively
robust. But most economists still see this as a calm in a
very serious economic storm.

Mr David Hale, chief economist with the Zurich group in
Chicago, does not see a systemic breakdown but does
see world growth next year down to 2 per cent. He
warns that commodity markets will "remain flat" next

Japan also is not going to recover suddenly. The
Japanese Government has reversed its economic forecast
from 1.9 per cent GDP growth in the year ending March
1999 to a contraction of 1.8 per cent, and measures
taken to stimulate growth remain mired by indecision.

China continues to be an accident waiting to happen with
its banking sector in deep financial chaos and deflation a
threatening fact of life as inventories build.

This is not the environment conducive to any sustained
commodity price recovery. And, worse, most commodity
markets will suffer another leg down in price if further
bad news breaks. Right now, they are holding their
breath and hoping this will not happen.

The exception, perhaps, is gold. Gold is managing to
trade in a sideways $US288-$US295/oz range, still
above its 18-year lows of $US273/oz hit in August. If
there is some sort of systemic breakdown, gold could be
bought as a safe-haven asset.

But to date, despite the profound economic problems
over the past 18 months, gold has not glittered as a
financial asset. Instead, it has fallen from $US415/oz
back in early 1996 to today's depressed levels.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:31 - ID#258195)
@ Sharefin
You are most welcome! Cheers and G'Day!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:42 - ID#25490)
In a few minutes you'll post your daily lease tables. Thank you for adding your special knowledge to kitco. I wish I could understand the numbers enough to INTERPRET them.

Perhaps, when finny inputs the last of this data there'll be some easy "connect-the-dots" charts for mois to follow.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:42 - ID#386245)
Just thought I'd throw that in. It helped me make lots of milage with the chicks in the 60's when I had longer hair and was gonna save the world. The chickies were impressed and massaged my...errrr...ahem....ego, amongst other things.
Someone mentioned Mormons today. I'm sure we've probably got some Mormon Kitcoites out there, so I'm gonna be nice, as I've gotten into enough trouble insulting everyone else. I want to be an honorary Mormon. I've already got the grub and other 'g' stuff--not yet a year's supply--but I'm workin' on it. Now I'm going to sit up on my roof every night and wait for someone to bring me golden tablets from 'up on high' ( Moroni--are you listening???? ) . If the Mormon church wants a 100% gung-ho convert--just send them golden tablets!!! I'll be waiting.
G'day ravenfire. Can durian be stored, mate. I hear it does wonders for life. Who needs Viagra when you can eat the 'fruit of kings'.
Oreacious--Noo Zeelanders will do fine in 2000. #38, however, may end up on the table. What was it the fellow said in 'A Tale of Two Cities'?? "It is a far, far better thing I do...."
BART-- I mentioned GOLD in this post---see the Mormon insult...errr...request to join. Now I suggest that you kick the REST of these non-relevant non-gold posters OFF the site--PRONTO

(Mon Nov 09 1998 03:55 - ID#25490)
I'm sending around some elders early one morning soon, we have many magazines to sell. Wanna re-interpretation of US/World History? Why it's all in the book of Joseph Smith.
some call it scripture, others 'a cargo-cult'
Glad to see you'll be saved, my friend, the long-haired yippie.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:01 - ID#257312)
Request for Lease Information

Where can I find the latest lease rates for Gold and Silver?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:07 - ID#386245)
Ask and ye shall receive.
BART will kill me for the bandwidth--BUT--we cannot let neophite Kitcotorian Aussiedave go without info on Dome Resourses. Besides, it is the graveyard shift and we can get away with murder!!!! WHOOOOOOOOO!!
Aussiedave--FOR YOU, MATE ( send 10x gold nuggets to Nick@C ) .
First Quarter Activities Report PART: C
DATE: 1998/10/30
HOMEX - Sydney
+++++++++++++++++++++++++EL 683
Work on the Yeme prospect has slowed while waiting for detailed
analysis of data on a siliceous outcrop, interpreted as an alteration
product for fluids derived from a high sulphidation system. An assay
of 6.2 g/t Au was received for this material.
Three trenches were dug and more are planned in the area of the high
sulphidation alteration.EL 894
During a second visit to the Yaloge area, our team has located
anomalous gold in soils with associated lead and zinc highs. Breccias
have been noted in areas of intrusives, and clay-pyrite alteration iscommon.
EL 1171Much of the work completed during the period was centred on the
development of relationships with the local people of the Aikora
valley, in the headwaters of the Gira River. The Gira was declared an
official goldfield in 1898.
A rectangular grid 1200 m x 350 m was pegged over an area adjacent to
Mt Dye. This area was selected because of the extensive working of
elluvial gold by local people, the high stream sediment results
obtained by past exploration in 1984, and the mining in 1941 by an
Australian miner. Another grid of 300 m x 400 m was pegged at
Sisinga, some 2500 metres south east of Mt. Dye.
A total of 495 soil samples were taken from these two grids. Mapping
and chip sampling is continuing.
Application for renewal has been submitted, relinquishing half of thetotal area.
EL 1182Results of a reconnaissance program suggest that the gold in the area
is structurally related, and further work is proposed. An application
for renewal in full has been made.ELA 1215This application is pending.
ELA's 1262,1263,1264
Three new applications have been submitted to the Department of
Mineral Resources and, if granted, will increase the total area under
license to Tolukuma Gold Mines by 7276 kmsq. The areas include the
same structural regimes as Tolukuma, with intrusive, and known
mineralisation. Targets include Tolukuma style deposits as well as
major porphyry systems.
Total exploration expenditure in Papua New Guinea during the Quarter
amounted to AUD820,642 converted at the exchange rate of 30 September
1998 ( 1 AUD = 1.333 Kina ) . AustraliaMT ADRAH - New South Wales
Exploration Licenses 3772, 3773, 3775 and 4922
Assessment Lease Application 2 Wagga WaggaDome Resources NL 50%
Armico Mining Ltd 50%
Michelago Resources NL may earn a 50% interest by spending $600,000.
No field work was carried out during the quarter.DAYLESFORD - Victoria
Exploration License 3431Dome Resources NL 100%
In March 1995, an option was granted over EL 3431 to Range River Gold
NL. The term of the option has been extended until 14 May 2000.
Work was restricted to some further analysis of the results of the
second quarter drilling program on the Ajax Line and to the planning
for the follow-up drilling program. This follow-up drilling will
comprise a four hole program of both RC and diamond drilling,
totalling about 1,000 metres. It is designed to evaluate the
relatively shallow, high grade gold mineralisation in RD 19, and is
now scheduled to begin in early November. Exploration expenditure for
the quarter was $5,617.00.ML Hutt DIRECTOR

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:22 - ID#26793)
Morning dollar news and comment from London

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:25 - ID#333126)
nick@everywhere but
i dunno about durian storage myself, although i hear that they can be frozen and still be eaten later ( though why anyone would want to do so is beyond me ) . not a durian lover personally, but i don't mind it. as to possible benefits to love life, i cannot claim to have heard any such story ( perhaps you could enlighten me? )

received the report from the funny money that i threw into TKG today. given their claims of gold resource, their shares are selling for peanuts. now, if only the price of gold skyrockets before they run out of cash... ten-bagger? no. more. damn. thank you for the tip, sir.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:29 - ID#333126)
my my ... americans sure are violent tonight

47% for unilateral action against Iraq!


John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:35 - ID#24135)
You can get a discount ..
for NAV buffs

I know many of you love Rangold because of its
discount to NAV ..
Well now .. here are two other shares with EVEN
Higher discounts ..
1. JCI gold shows an NAV of above 9 rand and trades
at 4 rand .. for a discount of 56 % and ..
2. CAM .. which holds a lot of Rangold and JCI gold
.. a "see through" NAV valuing its holds of
JCI gold and Rangold at the value of THEIR
holdings gives a value of 1.73 rands for
CAM .. it trades at 0.73 for a discount of
58 %

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:41 - ID#24135)
Now Ive heard EVERYTHING ..
For Nick ..
Forget the old Durian in the pencil trick .. not
worth it ..
.. try Ginko Biloba ..
... Ginko Biloba makes you like Rocky Balboa ..

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:42 - ID#26793)
A very long story about what is wrong with investing in Russia

(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:44 - ID#185448)
Good morning, all.

aura re Darwin-price: Roflmao!
Nick the Greek: Graveyard-shift. - Nominate it for the Kitco-awards 98, category nomenklatura.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 04:50 - ID#386245)
You should have bought my tip on NHG instead!!! Still a good buy. I must admit, though, that I have half a million TKG sitting around somewhere, just waiting for the revival. Reminds me of a t-shirt I saw a middle-aged woman wearing yesterday--"I'm waiting for a GOOD man to come along".She was a skeleton, covered with cobwebs, sitting on a park bench. Aprapos for junior gold shares, n'est pas??

(Mon Nov 09 1998 05:08 - ID#386245)
G'morning/G'nite JD/Fred
Your SA shares could use a little Ginko Biloba, John ( whatever that is ) .I remember a trip to Tijuana in the 60's. "Hey meester, you want Spanish Flyyyy???? Eeeet will put some guacamole in your tortilla, senior!!!"

G'day Fred. Isn't it amazing how goldbugs keep on truckin' under the most auspicious of circumstances?? We can all meet in the poor house one day. We can put spurs on LGB's and F*'s wings and put them in the ring. Did I ever tell you about the time in Manila when I got 7 cocks in a row, and the whole crowd of several thousand would not place their bets until I picked a chook?? Almost caused a riot!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 05:22 - ID#185448)
Have a living picture in my mind - you, with a 10inch cigar, lotsa money in your hand, surrounded by the thousands you mentioned, impatiently staring at the farang with the golden hand, waiting for him to place his bet. Breathless silence. And then - after some seconds - he lifts his hand, waving the bushel of money, and yells with firm voice:
"You are all arrested cause of illegal gambling!"

Cock-races. One of the last adventures for a real man!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 05:48 - ID#386245)
Kitco cock-fights are never a fair contest. You northern hemispheric cocks are on your first cup of coffee while we Antipodean cocks have been drinking something much better ( and stronger ) . Just as we are searching for deeper meaning in life, you are wondering what the traffic will be like today. I would like to formally apologize to all of you northerners for having to put up with our late night ( your morning ) ramblings ( OK-crap!! ) . Mind you--you pay us back in spades when the tables are turned. I mean--how would you like to listen to some of your northern bun-fights when sober!!

We'll have to do something about this time difference. Doesn't seem to affect the 3x sharefins. They are men for all seasons. Going to play Vivaldi, contemplate deeper meanings, and goin to bed. Nytol.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 05:51 - ID#386129)
some of the days comments may seem a bit esoteric & downright loonyville...but my betterhalf talks to her "friends" when she is metal detecting for the yellow stuff...& you have seen the results.....all part of the same thing....aliens,water divining,metal detecting,

PS..answer you ICQ!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 06:08 - ID#185448)
Re Air strikes against Iraq

(Mon Nov 09 1998 06:40 - ID#29048)
The problem with storage numbers......
November 9, 1998

Oil Analysts Can't Account For Some 300 Million Barrels


Oil analyst Michael Rothman was crunching the global crude-oil data in April, when he came across a big problem: His trusty numbers didn't add up. A 14-year veteran of the oil statistics, Mr. Rothman of Merrill Lynch & Co. usually found a way to explain these things with a little massaging of the spreadsheet. But this time, the answer wasn't in the computer.

What Mr. Rothman and a host of other oil-industry analysts and experts had uncovered was that a veritable tidal wave of oil was missing -- almost 300 million barrels of it.

No one knows where the oil is. Some think it could be floating at sea or stashed away in shadowy storage facilities. Others think the barrels are a statistical aberration, merely a large spreadsheet error. Regardless, just about everyone in the world oil industry is desperate to solve the case. Washington politicians, Saudi oil sheiks and New York traders are in on the hunt, trying either to prove the oil doesn't exist or find the missing barrels before they come crashing down on world markets.

Last week, an analyst in London using an old map said he may even have discovered the treasure scattered around the globe. "The missing oil is all too real," says Leo Drollas of the Centre for Global Energy Studies, "either moving toward consumers or in floating storage." Anyway you measure it, 300 million barrels is a lot of oil to lose. It would fill about 135 tankers. Trouble is, nobody has actually seen the stuff nor has anybody reported it missing. The official numbers just don't add up, and the discrepancy is bigger than anybody can ever remember.

Here's why: Month after month amid the current oil glut, world oil supply has been outstripping demand. That's why prices have been going down. Usually, the extra oil shows up in official inventory figures. This time, inventories didn't swell near enough to soak up the extra crude.

What makes the missing barrels so important is sheer size, more than double the officially counted surplus. If the oil is found, markets could

be in for a rough downhill run at a time when oil prices, in real terms, are already cheaper than they've been in more than a decade. Oil producing countries, from Saudi Arabia to Venezuela to Russia, are reeling from the lost revenues. Companies are cutting back on exploration and writing down property values.

If this oil is sloshing around the world somewhere, crude-oil prices could remain low for several years. That is, unless the Organization of

Petroleum Exporting Countries, scheduled to meet later this month,decides to cut back production far more drastically than it has done already. By way of example, the Saudis, the world's largest producers, would have to stop pumping oil entirely for 37 days to rid the world of the missing barrels.

On the other hand, if the oil isn't there and the data are bad, prices could climb fairly quickly. In fact, OPEC might actually have overdone its cutbacks and shortages could occur. "It means there is less oil available world-wide than the consensus thought," says George Yates,

chairman of the Independent Petroleum Association of America, an industry group that argues the missing oil is just a statistical anomaly.

The IPAA has focused its anger on the International Energy Association, the world's leading authority on petroleum statistics. Formed in response to the 1973 oil embargo to give consuming nations a better picture of supply and demand, the IEA has come under fire for consistently overstating supply. In response to outcries from small oil producers in his state, Sen. Pete Domenici, a Republican from New Mexico, recently asked the U.S. General Accounting Office to examine how the IEA collects and processes its data. "The situation is troubling," Mr. Domenici wrote to the GAO. But the IEA, which will release its latest figures Monday, and several petroleum analysts defend the numbers. While admitting theirs is an inexact science, and acknowledging possible revisions, the IEA says the missing oil is out there and just remains to be found. "We can't find too many places where the numbers could be wrong," says David Knapp, editor of the IEA's monthly oil reports. With Asian economies in the doldrums, Mr. Knapp says it isn't likely that the demand numbers are the errant inputs. "This is a very surprising difference," he says. "But these are very different times."

Mr. Drollas of the Centre for Global Energy Studies in London thinks he knows where it could be. One day recently, an associate of his remembered that they had a map of the world's petroleum storage facilities. Rummaging around the library, they found the old wall-sized chart buried in the clutter and spent several hours scanning it into the computer. After several more hours, they put the map's information into a spreadsheet. To their surprise, they found 612 million barrels of "independent" storage capacity around the globe that doesn't belong to oil companies or governments but is out there for hire. "We were staggered to find there was that much storage around," Mr. Drollas says.

To be sure, a lot of the storage is in Europe and the U.S. and is orobably counted by the IEA. Yet 20% of it is in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, China and Latin America, outside the domain of the data collectors.

Mr. Drollas's report doesn't prove the missing oil exists. But it does answer critics who say the oil isn't there because there isn't any place it could be.

Mr. Drollas next looked at the tankers. What he found was that a lot more oil has been loaded onto ships than has been recorded coming off. Either the tankers are being held at sea, used as floating storage, or they are unloading in places where the flow can't be counted.

As proof of his theories, Mr. Drollas notes that shipping costs remain high, suggesting heavy tanker demand. His conclusion: "The majority of

the missing barrels are out there, hanging over the market and exerting downward pressure on oil prices."

Mr. Drollas's final evidence is the price of oil. He says the wayward oil probably has been responsible for cutting short every oil rally this year, despite the OPEC cuts. Each time the price rises, he contends, some of this oil comes flooding onto the market.

What everyone agrees is that, given the significance of oil in the world economy, the data should be at least as good as that for, say, orange-juice concentrate. But many countries guard their crude production as a state secret. Most oil companies refuse to reveal how much they have in storage. The result is a perennial boom and bust cycle.

Meanwhile, Mr. Rothman keeps working over the data. He leans toward the camp that thinks the oil doesn't exist. But it remains a mystery. "I still have not reconciled these numbers," he says.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 06:42 - ID#29048)
Silver @ COMEX
The same problem of questionable storage numbers hangs over silver and makes the COMEX numbers less compelling. Y'all be careful out there.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 06:58 - ID#18355)
aurator --faust line
everything crowds after gold, is devoted to gold.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:17 - ID#286249)
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 175.774 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 292.400 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 6 Nov 1998 ) : 176.410 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 6 Nov 1998 ) : 293.300 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 6 Nov 1998 ) : 3.0277 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 6 Nov 1998 ) : 5.0350 US Dollars

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:19 - ID#333126)
nick@C re: junior golds
I chose TKG because of the ridiculous price. 0.5 cents!

'sides, I had the chance to bail out when they pumped to 1.4 sometime ago. probably should have. hehe.

no matter. the funny money lives on. kitco mass opinion says POG ( golf, of course ) going to 315+ at end of year, yes? 600 by 2000?

i'll sell this stock when it reaches ... oh... $1 ( Au@$600? ) or thereabouts. hehe. i'll think of it as my unexpiring gold call option. ;- )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:24 - ID#348169)
@Fred and Speed and cherokee
cherokee and others will certainly find the aricls you have posteed this morning very interesting. The one shows why oil has stayed down and the other shows why cherokee expects an imminent war.
BTW - cherokee, you asked the other day of me 'so what's your point?' I was not trying to lay blame by pointing out our past mistakes in timing, only saying that it has and does happen, and at the same time I was pointing out that ground-level water levels in mid-NA are VERY low and so with any continuation of this trend ( little snow and rain this Winter/Spring ) we may be in for a monster drought next year leading to a long awaited bull in grain prices.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:27 - ID#348169)
Grains (Edible Gold) and Crude (Black Gold)
...and, as everyone around here knows, if grains and oil skyrocket, so will Gold.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:28 - ID#288466)
Monday morning stuff


XAU Fibonacci Time chart

Major chart turning point coming on 11/18-11/20 - a bottom, or a top?

Market cycles - Comex gold

Cycle projection oscillators & Elliottt wave analysis

User: hixson
Password: thmetal

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:34 - ID#43185)
Just another monday
Globex down. Not too surprising given the runups of the last week or two.

Bonds mixed, should strengthen later in light of the declines of last week.

Dollar and the pound up.

Metals down, silver looking particularly weak but not as bad as could be expected when thinking of APH's 4.40

Oil slighty up. This may be a good time to look at some oil stocks in that the Iraq situation couild develo surprisingly fast.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:51 - ID#45173)
Kitco-ites vote against the US stock market. Is anyone surprised?
The stock market has priced into it another rate cut on Nov. 17. Yet twice as many Kitco attendees believe the market will disappointed as believe a rate cut expectation will be fulfilled.

November Interest Rates Change Poll

53 votes
32% lower rates
66% unchanged
2% raise rates

If you haven't voted already, please vote on how you think Greenspan will effect rates in November.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 07:59 - ID#72206)
I have never in 30 years of going to my cottage seen the water so low and staying that way for the last few months...


(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:03 - ID#35571)
IMF says don't worry, be happy

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:06 - ID#348169)
Monday Morning Wake-up!
For those who may have been out of town on the week-end this post was particularily pertinant to a lot of the past discussions around here:
Date: Sat Nov 07 1998 17:35

Bully Beef
(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:08 - ID#259282)
Just for Mozel. Hitler was not "Godless".In my fathers war chest is an aluminum belt buckle
with a Swastica and the words " Gott Mit Unz". The spelling is no doubt wrong on my behalf. I always wondered why a nation backed by God could destroy 12 million Jews and Russians. On November 11 our nation remembers the dead who fought to end genocide.This is a fact our nation will not re write.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:10 - ID#238422)
John Disney
Brother John,

I trust you, my brother...and more. If you say that
your mother-in-law is Jewish, that must be true....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:13 - ID#35571)
Presumably fit doesn't hit the shan till next week

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:17 - ID#35571)

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:20 - ID#348169)
@ The Long Awaited Commodity Boom
arby - It's Mooney, Sir! ;- ) Where's your cottage located? I live in the east end of Toronto close to where a major stream flows into Lake Ontario. Just before it ( the Rouge River ) enters this Great Lake there is a large pond. I have never seen this pond so low before. Reports have hit the media that all across cottage country wells are at near record lows. The weather for months has been calm and basically precipitation free. My garden soil has been like dust to the touch for months. I feel like I've moved to San Diego. If we have a drought on the NA continent next year it may be THE trigger that kicks off a mult-year commodity boom. As usual you heard it here at Kitco FIRST!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:28 - ID#45173)
In organizations happens when top execs leave before an orderly transfer of authority has been arranged. Seems Mr. Black was in a hurry to go.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:30 - ID#35571)
After the crash in '29 they had a drought in NA in the thirties, but it did NOT kick off a commodites boom, FWIW.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:31 - ID#35571)
Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:31 - ID#318183)
rangy to ranyd??
Morning all - any one know the reason for rangy to change stock symbols

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:39 - ID#284255)
Many thanks
Here's the corrected data.

I only have the 3 month going back a few years.

I know what you mean.
I guess I'm relentless like you and your trading. ( ;- ) ) )

Go gold.....

Monkee Person
(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:41 - ID#350219)
Bridge stocks are stable?!

They're ignoring half of East Asia, I guess.

No offense, Gollum. Thanks for the post.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:41 - ID#284255)
It doesn't get better than this...
WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - President Clinton directed his government
Saturday to find a way to close a legal loophole that allows
speakers/journalists to express their ideas at public places with no
questions asked.

In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is
emerging at seminars and radio talk shows because the First Amendment
permits people to express their ideas without background checks.

``Some of these talk shows have become a haven for criminals and
hate-speech mongers looking to sway people on a no-questions-asked
basis,'' Clinton said.

He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General
Janet Reno to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the
loophole in the Bill of Rights and to prohibit any free speech without a
background check.

``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check,
no free speech, no exceptions,'' Clinton said.

In a fact sheet, the White House said that every week about 35
million people regularly listen to an estimated 50 conservative radio
personalities such as Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy.

On Nov. 30, 1999 the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background
Check System is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve
speech license sales within minutes.

In addition, on Nov. 30, 1999 the law will be strengthened in two
ways: purchases of all speech licenses, not just political, will be
subject to Reno background checks as will Kinko's printing services,
which are four times as likely to involve prohibited printed pinions.

Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of
background checks conducted nationally will increase from 0 million to
between 10 and 12 million. Unregulated speech is ``an open invitation to
criminals and right wing crazies,'' said Janet Reno, who chairs
SpeechControl Inc. The Clinton law was named after the President, who
was wounded in verbal attacks first launched by radio personality Rush
Limbaugh in 1992.

California and Maryland regulate ``hate speech'', said Reno. Florida
voters passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the
power to require a waiting period and a background check for speeches at
political rallies and other public places.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:42 - ID#284255)
Who likes gold now? Is this a cult trend???

According to several news sources, the singing diva is quitting the music
businness on December 31st, 1999 with her last singing performance because
of fears over the Y2K computer problem. A source states that Dion read
articles about the Canadian military preparing to mobolize all over Canada
in 1999/2000 in preparation for the chaos that will ensue due to the
collapse of social infastructures. Dion has reportedly removed her vast
fortune from several financial institutions and invested in several
alternative methods of protecting her wealth, including the purchase of
gold and silver coins, as well as stockpiling food, water and alternative
power supplies. Other celeberties from the music and movie business, who
were informed by Dion, are also reportedly taking similar steps to ensure
they survive the chaos caused by Y2K.

Paradigm Shift News

Monkee Person
(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:44 - ID#350219)
Sharefin's 08:41

Why Rubin?!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:46 - ID#30126)
:- ) ) Truth will BE stranger than fiction... :- ) )

Give it time sharefin, give it time.... and the sheeple will approve of such nonsense. For now, :- ) ) :- ) )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:46 - ID#31868)

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:46 - ID#45173)
To satisfy stock holders, corporations like to fire the one "bad apple"
"reponsible" for a debacle that involved many. Perhaps Mr. Black, sensing that he was about to be scape-goated, decided to leave on his own terms. Of course, this begs the question, "Where's the debacle?"

(Mon Nov 09 1998 08:54 - ID#31868)

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:00 - ID#284255)
It doesn't get better than this??
Best-selling British daily suggests "gay mafia" running Britain

LONDON, Nov 9 ( AFP ) - Britain's best-selling popular daily, The Sun, suggested Monday that Britain was being run by a "gay mafia" following revelations that four members of Tony Blair's Labour government are homosexuals.

"Tell us the truth Tony: Are we being run by a gay mafia?" the paper screamed on its front page.

At the weekend, Minister of Agriculture Nick Brown was forced to "confess" his homosexuality after being told that a tabloid was about to reveal it in his place.

Before him, one of Blair's closest aides, Peter Mandelson suffered a similar fate when a prominent editorialist revealed on television the sexual leanings of the Minister of Industry.

And in October, another minister, Ron Davies resigned as Welsh Secretary after being involved in a bizarre late-night encounter in a notorious haunt of male homosexuals in London's Clapham Common.

A fourth member of Blair's government, Culture Minister Chris Smith was already known to be gay.

After this series of revelations, The Sun said Monday that it was time the government came clean about the number of people in high places who were gay.

"His ( Blair's ) government is going to get itself into massive trouble if it doesn't tell us the whole truth: is Britain being run by a gay mafia of politicians, lawyers, palace courtiers, TV bigwigs or even police officers," said the paper which sells four million copies daily.

"The revelation that a fourth member of the Blair government is gay has set alarm bells ringing," it said, adding: "The public has a right to know how many homosexuals occupy positions of high power....the sexuality is not the problem. The worry is their membership of a closed world of men with a mutual self-interest."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:07 - ID#317211)
@sharefin - perhaps Mr. Clinton would like to be the first background check.
Dodged the draft? Schooled abroad? Didn't inhale? All those dead bodies surrounding him? Paula Jones, Monica & Kathleen? Executive Orders?


(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:10 - ID#290172)
FT Monday Nov 9 1998-US set to announce plans for EU sanctions

"The US and the European Union will move closer to a trade war this week when Washington publishes a preliminary list of European exports on which it is proposing to impose sanctions in retaliation against the EU's banana import regime. The move follows the failure of intense European diplomatic efforts to persuade senior members of President Bill Clinton's administration to withdraw its threat to penalise EU exports early next year if the banana regime is not modified.

The regime gives producers in the former African, Caribbean and Pacific colonies of France and the UK priviledged access to the EU market.


and it is only coincidental that the new Euro will make goods more expensive to American consumers next yearmust keep those cola indicators in checkthis ISN'T inflationit is a battle of principlefor Latin America banana producers{:- ( (

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:13 - ID#35571)
Interesting. Free speech, but licensed. Freespeach a "loophole" in the Bill of Rights?

They should look some more. I bet they can find lots of freedom loopholes.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:13 - ID#31868)
Phony Blair and Clintler are low level white is time my friends to throw out
the garbage...yup...uh huh...nuff said...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:14 - ID#375108)
Monday Mornin' Kitco Mania
OK, since we seem to discussing the approach of "1984", I offer this tidbit, posted by Ole' 49'er on Silicon Investor:

Off to buy a downtrodden Y2K tech stock....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:14 - ID#284255)
Monkee Person - Panda
Who are we, that sit on top of mountains, casting pebbles downhill?

I've never been there, never done that.
But, wasn't the period after the roaring 20's, a period of prohibition?
The flappers turned to the underground.
As the wealth was stripped away.
The gayest of crowds dissapated.
As the tough times dressed all in greysacks.

Just think of the expressions of hate one would have drawn.
If one wore sacks at a flapper's do, in the 20's?
Or dressed as a flapper, during the 30's?

Seems like in hard times, well, freedom changes.
And here we are before the passage of time and the signs are there.

Not nice, but here we go.....^o-o^

After 1929 they had a change in sentiment.
The roaring twenties were a hoot.

Not so the sugarbag years.
Just around the corner...up around the bend.....

That's just my alterego...
I shall watch the Leonids in awe.
Same as when I watched them as an eight year old.
T'is a sight to behold.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:22 - ID#35571)
Soon they will have speech education classes in igh schools so that one can easily get their freespeech license when they become of age.

One will have to be carefull to avoid speaking when drinking or the media patrol will book them for speaking under the influence.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:22 - ID#290172)
FT Monday Nov 9 1998-German banks win concession

Basle Committee compromise allows Germans to continue to raise diluted form of capital
German banks will still be allowed to count money raised by "silent partnerships" -a legal form unused in other countries-as Tier 1 capital, the most solid and permanent form of cushion against losses.The Bundesaufsichtsamt fr das Kreditwesen, Germany's banking supervisory authority, has told German banks that sleeping partnerships may still be counted as Tier 1 capital so long as they have a life of at least 10 years when issued and at least two years of that life left to run. Banks are keen to make use of the new hybrid instruments as a source of capital because, with instruments deductible from taxable income, they are roughly half as expensive to issue as pure equity."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:26 - ID#372228)
Novice - Y2K and Hoarding
Thanks for the link...the unfortunate thing about this story is that we as citizens have no control over what the gov't does any more...Who authorized a raid on Sam's Club??? So what if some guy was hoarding food...the more he buys the more the manufacturer makes and can produce more...this keeps people employed...If anything, this kind of action by the gov't incites more panic than just controlling the sounds like Bill Clinton is at it again with his lies and conspiracy...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:32 - ID#350194)
Has anyone got handy the latest world-wide consumption/production stats? Has the spreading Asian contagion had any noticable effect on this balance in the last six months? In other words, are we still in the rapidly decling supply situation?
Silver ( along with coffee, orange juice and oil ) often has one of the most volatile moves of any of the commodities once it decides to make a move. Although many here don't believe in futures and pyramiding it can, and has, lead to many impressive fortunes being made in short spaces of time. I'm not encouraging those who have no knowledge of the ins and outs of these markets to begin now without a lot of research and instruction, however those who are adept at these things know that beginning with a low base price before the break-out can lead to impressive profits and I'm thinking we may be very close to that point in time. See also:
Date: Sat Nov 07 1998 18:35
Mooney* ( @The Silver Wedge ) ID#350194:
Copyright  1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Comments from futures traders? Please feel free to email me @:

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:33 - ID#333126)
sharefin @ watching the leonids
any suggestions for a beginner astronomer for when and where out of Sydney to go watch the meteor shower?

thanks :- )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:35 - ID#284255)
Satellites, ICBMs, traffic lights ready for 2000
PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. ( AFPN ) -- The new century has many nay-sayers, psychics and fringe elements of society predicting doom and gloom. But, more important than the alignment of the stars for these soothsayers will be the alignment of electrical impulses inside computer chips that run everything from their microwave oven to the Air Force's most advanced satellites.

"This could cause all kinds of problems including complete failure of a system dependent on a computer program," said Maj. Gary Warren, Air Force Space Command's year 2000 project officer. Warren and his six-person team are coordinating the effort to find, fix and test 19,486 systems in the command that could be effected by the problem -- commonly know by its acronym, Y2K.

There are 276 mission systems that include satellite constellations that provide the country vital communications, navigation, surveillance, and missile warning capability.

"This is a huge task, but our units in the field are doing great,"

"Our goal is to have every person come to work on Jan. 1, 2000, and be able to perform their job with the tools they've always used. With continued teamwork and leadership involvement, I'm confident this will happen in Air Force Space Command."

For the geeks.
Interface Development and Testing -- Is it lagging badly?
If I was to speculate, my knowledge of the interface situation indicates that communicating partners are trying to forge agreements on window approaches and communicate via 2-digit years, because it saves the work of building all those bridges to/from 4-digit years. I would further speculate that this is probably going to cause all kinds of grief, without any "windowing standards" in place. So I am concerned.

***For all Ozzies.***
Have a look at the cover and page 16 of the colour insert within the SMH Sydney Morning Herald.

"The day the earth stands still."

Good read...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:37 - ID#290172)
Sharefin--yr 8:41 Suspension of free speech
FT's lead editorial Mon 11/9 is: "Clinton unbound" {:- (

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:44 - ID#183109)
RANDGOLD.....a bundle of new info.....LOOKING GOOD GANG !!
Randgold's promotional tour schedule...

Comments from CEO Roger Kebble...

S.A. gold guru picks 4 of RANGY's holdings as his top picks!...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:45 - ID#284255)
From what I've read in the SMH
They reckon look to the NE at about 4:30am on the morning of the 18th.
Best place to veiw from is Asia but you should be able to get a look in if you're in Sydney. Providing there's no cloud.

I had thought it was 24 hrs earlier, but not sure.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:45 - ID#147201)
Obsidian re 24 K
Thank you very much for bringing me up to date. That's the reason I prefer using the decimal ID- ,9999 fine. Also, re the little coins- The natural choice is the Royal Australian Mint which resolves the maker's mark. Again, many thanx, Charlie

(Mon Nov 09 1998 09:50 - ID#350194)
@Gollum and '..the Time's they are a'changing'.
True Gollum, however, there were not so many semi-automatics and machine guns in the hands of the starving population in those days either. Major Government's will do everything this time to ensure their populations stay feed and that means they will competitively bid for the lessened supply and that will force prices up along with POG.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:01 - ID#335190)
SDRer An example of why the corporations demand a license for free speech EH!
Date: Mon Nov 09 1998 09:37 SDRer ( Sharefin--yr 8:41 Suspension of free speech )

Where are the Dead Bodies?

by Debbie Anderson

On the surface, it appears that Health Minister Allan Rock has lifted the crackdown on herbal remedies and dietary supplements and bowed to the wishes of the Canadian people.

Under Codex, NAFTA, GATT and MAI, the business plan of the multinational pharmaceutical industry is to monopolize the natural supplements industry worldwide. To do this, they must first remove our herbs from the food category and then reclassify them as drugs.>


Because they are fraudulently tested?

by Robert Ryan, B.Sc.

According to the United States' Food and Drug Administration, 1.5 million Americans were hospitalised in 1978 alone, as a consequence of pharmaceutical drugs administered to "cure" them.

It was also found that some 30% of all hospitalised people suffered further damage from the therapy prescribed them. ( 1 ) In the 1990s, studies show that 180,000 medically-induced deaths occur each year in the USA. ( 2 )

These astronomical figures are in spite of the fact that a large number of drug damages go unreported.

If money and medical treatment equals health then one would expect the United States to be the healthiest of nations.

However, it only ranks 16th in the world in female life expectancy, 17th in the world in male life expectancy and only 21st in the world in infant mortality. ( 5 )

A grassroots non-profit organization, dedicated to educating and motivating Canadian citizens to reclaim their rights to choose safe and affordable, natural vitamins, minerals, herbs, botanicals, and dietary supplements as foods.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:02 - ID#258427)
@Polarbear...whaaaaaat....Rangy up 1 3/16??
Is this the same Rangy I had on Friday at 13/16? What did I do to deserve this? Now trading at 2.....up from 13/16?? Talk to me Polarbear. Did I strike gold? TIA

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:04 - ID#284255)
SDR Clinton unbound..
Now what could that mean?
Could he rise to new levels?

I wonder what they will bind up ?
T'would not surprise me to see 'this' medium to disappear.
Whispers are in the woods already.

Information is power...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:06 - ID#333264)

Got a message that Rangy reverse split today. Looks like it was 3 for2. No biggie to me till I noticed that the damn price went down too. Oh well,I guess the old saying "play with fire you are likely et burnt" applies here. Come on gold, pull out of it, my gold stocks are sucking eggs.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:06 - ID#335190)
Maybe this will work better ????????

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:07 - ID#147201)
Anybody & Everybody re derivatives
For thos interested, I would appreciate comments re which individual financial number may indicate the derivatives blowup. IE- a dramatic "overnite" change in a significant statistic. Maybe the yen or what ever you think. I am after the early warning move that may give the clue. It may be no more than a few hours. Thanx very much for your effort, Charlie

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:08 - ID#375108)
Trader_Vic @ 0926
De nada. No question, a politically strengthened and emboldened WJC/HRC present a scary prospect... Rhetorical question: which way is gold going to go today??

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:12 - ID#318183)
Polarbear or John Disney - randgold
Do you know anything about the ranyd synbol - discovery brokerage is
showing it as a NEW adr for rangy

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:12 - ID#183109)
mapleman @ rangy
What kind of message? This is all news to me. Just spoke with Roger Kebble a couple of days ago and he didn't mention it. I'm inclined to think this is a computer glitch, but maybe they needed to get the price up over a dollar for some NASDAQ delisting rule? Anybody know? At any rate, like was mentioned, splits, reverse splits...who cares....the assets are there, and that's what is going to make us money.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:12 - ID#339274)
FWIW Bonds heading to 127 20/32 or 5.22 cash.See how the liquidity
is playing out.Gold still basing,watch plat.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:12 - ID#258427) quotes shows RANYD
trtading at 2 dollars /share...up 1 3/16??? whats going on?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:14 - ID#284255)
Earth to be hit by solar storm in 2000
By Robin McKie, Science Editor
London OBSERVER Sunday November 8, 1998

Scientists have warned of a new millennium disaster - from outer
space. They say electromagnetic space storms will wipe out telephone
lines and television signals, cripple aircraft navigation systems and
leave cities without power supplies.

Researchers say storms - which will reach a peak early in 2000 - will
also disable many of the 500 satellites that orbit the Earth.

"We now have hundreds of billions of dollars of equipment orbiting
over our heads, and they will all be at risk in the first few weeks of
the millennium," said Nick Flowers, of Britain's Mullard Space

This warning was backed last week by the US National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration ( NOAA ) . Its forecasters said that the sun
is heading into the most violent part of its 11-year cycle of activity
- known as the solar maximum. This will peak in about 18 months' time.
In 1989, during the last solar maximum, the sun blasted out huge
bursts of high-energy particles - coronal mass ejections. These solar
storms battered Earth's protective radiation belts.

The effects were particularly strong in high latitudes and triggered
powerful electric currents in telephone and electrical equipment. In
space, the storms fused equipment in satellites.

There are 250 communications satellites in special high orbit over
Earth. Hovering 23,000 miles above the ground, they are particularly
vulnerable to solar storms.

However, the greatest danger is likely to be posed by a breakdown in
the US Global Positioning System. This fleet of satellites provides
navigation and guidance for aircraft across the world.

"A failure of this system could have very serious consequences, even
if it was only a temporary breakdown," said Flowers. "It won't cause
aircraft to crash, but it could bring havoc to traffic control."

However, of more immediate concern is the Leonid meteor shower, which
will hit Earth on 17 November. Meteors pose no risk to humans but
could cause serious damage in space, where satellites face a
one-in-500 chance of being destroyed by a meteor.

** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material
is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest
in receiving the included information for research and educational
purposes. **

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:17 - ID#333264)

I take it all back. Please forgive me Rangy Gods. Now up 68% to 2 with ask @ 2.25. What did I say before, " play with fire and you will smoke em ".

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:18 - ID#432395)
NEWS FLASH--Clintons approval rating up another 2%, on Free Speech issue.
"Who Cares" said John Q Public," the economy is great, I'm making money in the stock market". "Personally I think this free speech thing is
over rated anyway".

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:20 - ID#183109)

My BIGGEST concern with all of this is the following:

If they really change the symbol, will we keep calling it RANGY? Wow, gonna loose sleep over this one. And my website.....hours of work....bummer.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:21 - ID#431200)
Ranyd +68.42%
The best performer on Nasdaq?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:22 - ID#66136)
MoReGoLd Ref your post on BGR Pres Metals discount. It trades very thin and rec limit orders.
It has most often traded at a disc but is at an historical low because of the lack of interest in the exploration group. J Dines considers it the best way to play that group. I know a Reg Investment Advisor building a big position since Aug who will hold for a prem. Trade as BGRAF on otc.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:22 - ID#410194)
Gold and Silver
Morning analysis about precious metals from "Hightower Report":

"GOLD: The currency market continues to be a slight negative for gold with the Dollar making it expensive for weak demand to participate. South Africa reported an increase in gold output which seems to be the producers answer to lower prices, produce more gold. South Africa alone increased their output by 1.61 tons over the second quarter. If that wasn't enough Taiwan reported October gold imports to have fallen by 44.7% on a year ago. Just taking higher African output and the lower Taiwan consumption in two countries shows how the supply demand function remains bearish with extra tons of gold surfacing here and there. The COT report showed the funds quickly dropping their net positions deep into the short category with the commercials going from moderate longs to massive longs."

"SILVER: Once again the COT has the silver opposite of the gold with the funds the big long and the commercials remaining short almost 34,000 contracts. The problem is that over 15,000 small spec longs leave silver a little overbought and possibly without extra fuel."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:23 - ID#333264)

My message came from DATEK and looks to be accurate. They took about one third of my shares. I have'nt done the math yet.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:27 - ID#183109)
mapleman @ RANGY
If possible, could you please email me that message to

I'll post it on my website as I'm sure otherwise I'll have a dozen or more emails to answer to later today.

Another email address. Will this automatically change as well to wow...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:29 - ID#254321)
The PPT got a little too much public attention last week!
All: John Crudele's editorial on the PPT is interesting -- even mentions a fellow's name who works for the FED. Apparently the FED ordered this fellow to stop talking to the media ( John Credele ) . I wonder why.

There is nothing new about the PPT. Apparently something like this happened over 100 years ago in the US. Looks like a good idea on the surface -- smooth out all the twitches so that the markets don't swoon. Only problem is -- if the PPT gets carried away then the markets get even more out of equilibrium from reality. And -- what if the PPT gets confused one day -- and pushes when it should have pulled? Or even worse -- runs out of money and forgets to tell anyone until it is too late? What if some of the biggest hedge funds are part of the PPT, and they fail to tell the FED they have a liquidity crisis?

Talk about insider trades -- is it fair for the insiders that work with the FED to know about the PPT and when they prop up the markets? I doubt you will ever hear about the SEC investigating the PPT.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:30 - ID#347457)
@Sharefin on Y2K for the geeks - from the geek ;-)
Sorry Bart, this is geek speaking but I did not start this Y2K thread ;- )

Sharefin, the geek concerns are just too geeky ;- ) I would be worried much more about our inability to test all interfaces instead of "lack of windowing standards". It's impossible to get agreement and synchronize interface testing between all external entities.

Lack of "windowing standards" will not cause the problem in a short time. Typical window is "if less than 50 year is 20xx else year is 19xx". Sure, you can see windows "1930 through 2029", "1933 through 2032", etc. The point is that most dates in EDI interfaces have a short span, e.g., orders with delivery due date month ahead, financial results for the last year, etc. Windows without standards will work just fine until you start reaching window boundaries. Most of dates in interfaces where this may be a case ( e.g. date-of-birth ) are already handled as 4 digit years ( at least in systems I went through ) . Think about it this way, if we dealt with dates spanning the century and passing them as two digit years, systems would already be failing on massive scale. So far they don't.

Pragmatism is what will get us through this mess. A lot of worries coming from technical geeks ( mind you - NOT ALL OF THEM ) are based on scenarios which may never play. On the other hand, many geeks due to a narrow point of view doesn't think about real dangers hidden in complexity of modern society which so much depend on computers.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:33 - ID#31868)
JTF, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...the plain and simple truth is that they are criminals
and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law...the problem is that people are feeding at the trough and have zero moral capacities as long as all that green keeps coming in...once it stops they will all be born again somthing or another's and cry foul as they sit in the stench of their own greed and point fingers at everyone else...yup...uh huh...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:37 - ID#147201)
mozel your 00:14
Is there some way we could define that single piton to get an early warning on the derivatives blowup? The yen amy be an option, but I think there are others. Any help?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:43 - ID#31868)
Miro, Namaste' gulp and a puff to is far better to be prepared as best
one can be rather than refute the unknown and take no action at all...the single biggest factor in the entire Y2K conundrum is the ability of the utility companies to provide product...if the grid goes down the leading industrial countries will be layed to waste...period... the technicians that tend to them would all be powerless... ( pun intended ) ...period...end of story yet to be told...yup...uh huh...

got alternatives?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:44 - ID#269409)
@ SHarefin...Solar storms, no big deal
Re your post on solar storms, Y2K, and potential damage to satellites. This was a problem on some earlier satellite designs, but these days the birds are designed to withstand the "worst" that the sun can trrough at them.

"Radiation hardness" or "Rad hard" is the term used in the industry. The requirements that have been put in place the past few years assure that the satellites in use least those put up in the past few years, will not experience failure when these solar storms occur.

I know that at Loral, part of the reliability requirements of every design ( and we not only design, but exhaustively test for this ) , is that every device and subsystem has to meet a rather large "overkill" of radiation well beyond anything the sun can toss at them, even in a worst case solar storm scenario.

Some of the old junk may fail... ( and won't be greatly missed..being a sattelites mission life is generally only 10 years anyway ) ...but virtually none of the latest and greatest desings of this decade will.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:46 - ID#350194)
@Lurker 777
My apologies for not answering your questions last Friday. I was not on board at the time. Believe it or not I do sometimes have a life wherein my eyes, mind and fingertips are detached from the keyboard!
FIRST. The reason that I ( and others ) were discussing speculative stocks on K2 and NOT K1 was because that was the purpose that K2 was set up for - To discuss coins and speculative mining STOCKS. ( Short of like freeing up some of K1's space for more important issues such as guns, politics, religion, and you know, uh, sometimes, something like, uh, economic analysis of markets which may affect the precious metals outlook. ) Because K2 fell into disuse we seem to have everything, including stock chat, mixed together back here again.
SECOND. If you will CAREFULLY re-read my early Friday morning post that seemed to throw you into such a frenzy, you will readily see your error in claiming that I was attacking Mozel. The exact opposite is true in that I was PRAISING his post.
Sorry All for wasting valuable Monday morning bandwidth on such trivia, but this is a really good example of one reason that foodfights happen. Lurker 777 totally misread my initial post, thinking that I was attacking Mozel ( when in reality I was praising him ) and then procedes to attack me. What a waste of time and talent.

Cage Rattler
(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:47 - ID#33184)
Dollar busy making another big move ...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:47 - ID#31868)
LGB, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...and what if you and your's are wrong...
what then? Would you and your's be willing to sign a document that you would be responsible for the ensuing break downs and losses suffered?

got a lawyer?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:48 - ID#233199)
Didn't somebody here call $338 as a low for Platinum?
So far - so good...

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:51 - ID#270253)
Rangy split
Yahoo show Ranyd as 1 7/8 down 9/16. This would equate to a 1 for three split. Some one is taking advantage of the confusion and buying up some shares at an eqivilent price of 5/8. Low volume though.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:52 - ID#290202)
the former (and beloved) RANGYadr
This repositioning of RANYD/RANGY is one telltale sign of the coming
reformulation of the POG. What other signals should we be looking
for to further indicate this??? position.....
( Congratulations Polarbear for your acumen and faithfulness )

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:52 - ID#270253)
Bad typing
Sorry, too much coffee!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:57 - ID#35571)
Bonds moving

(Mon Nov 09 1998 10:57 - ID#31868)
PolarBear, Gulp...puff...and a plump seal to ya...excellent work and a constant
stream of on-going information...also to Disney and Vronsky gulps and puffs all around for the introductiona to and on-going value to be found in SA golds...yup...uh huh...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:05 - ID#347457)
@tolerant1 & Sharefin
tolerant1, agreed. As I said, "many don't think about real dangers hidden in complexity of modern society which so much depend on computers" without power, computers won't work, and who would care if "software worked right".

Sharefin, your previous post on NRA possibly shutting down nuclear plants is no secret. You see there are NRA rules mandated by law. As a matter of fact, you can read all of them on NRA site ( lengthy reading ) .

Overriding safety principle is that the plant must be shut down if the safety operation is in anyway questionable. Well, it's difficult to find anybody who will "guarantee" total fault proof operation in a post Y2K timeframe. Based on rules you have to shut it down. No clandestine operation - just following the rules. However, it's true that public does not know too much about these rules and may interpret them as "something they are hiding from us". Not at all - it's all in there - published on Internet for all to read.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:07 - ID#333264)

Its for real. I know cause I just sold my ranyd for a very nice profit. Now I have some cash to play with - any suggestions.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:09 - ID#320202)
and we all know what that means? do we? looks like a reversal, ...reading through the last hours of posted material here, gives me the monday morning blues, Sam's raid, more of Y2K - worries, missing barrels of oil, what a start to a new week !

Fred @ Vienna

Sir , please could you contact me via e-mail ,
like to ask you about vienna !

have a nice week all

lb ( ha ha ha , that's a good one, when I was spellchecking my post,
Y2K came up as : replace with yak !! )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:11 - ID#233199)
Think of all the money we'll save on commisions when we sell!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:12 - ID#269409)
@ Tolerant1...Liability for failures
Well Tol..I'm afraid we're ALWAYS responsible for potential failures of our Sats. and the attendent liabilities that may be incurred. Besides, more and more we're getting into the business of owning the networks that the sats. are being used for... ( Globalstar, Skybridge, Skynet, et al ) thus our future income is at stake as well.

It's in our best interest to make sure we do all we can to prevent failures under any and all potential hazards of space. Having been involved in the design and Qual. testing on many occasions, for many different subsystems and components...on virtually all our programs....the overkill on Rad hard requirements is such that I can assure you that the LAST thing I worry about for potential failure mode is solar storms!

Cage Rattler
(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:15 - ID#33184)
USD Gold price surprisingly static considering large USD forex movements

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:16 - ID#183109)
So what's the consensus? 3 for 2? 3 for 1? 10 for 7? What a mess.

Kebble is hitting up the big boys this week...hummmm.

Mapleman, you're saying you are certain it was a 3 for 2? E Trade doesn't even know what day it is ....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:16 - ID#344326)
I'm wondering if the reverse stock split is a preparation to merge with DROOY. Where's STUDIO.R? Actually RanyditO has a ring to it....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:19 - ID#339274)
77.61 XAU
FWIW Perfect .618 retracement

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:19 - ID#183109)
crazytimes @ rangy


Here's the latest from the horse's mouth. A merger with Durban is not in the cards. BUT, a distribution of Durban shares to RANGY holders could happen down the road.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:26 - ID#254321)
Solar storms -- from solar flares --each with two attached sunspots
sharefin: It has been some time since I last checked the rising sunspot number of this current cycle -- the sunspot rise should taper off in the next 6-12 months, with a peak around 2001-2002.

Terrestrial solar storms tend to be maximal in the second half of the sunspot cycle, and numbers/intensity correlate roughly with the numbers/intensity of the sunspots. This is based on the fact that two sunspots make up the base of what consists of a 'solar flare' --an arch consisting of piece of solar plasma that got away from the sun -- with magnetic fielld lines locked inside --

The definition of a terrestrial solar flare ( or more accurately a solar storm ) consists of the effects of these loops of plasma with sunspots on each end. Especially big ones can break off or otherwise spill electromagnetic energy and elementary particles into the solar wind, causing a terrestrial solar storm when they reach the earth.

We could very well have some big terrestrial solar storms around y2k extending into 2002 or later, given the phase of the current sunspot cycle we are in. Unfortunately one cannot predict the occurrence of a big solar storm theoretically ( except that they occur during periods of high sunspot activity ) . So -- all one can do is watch the sun -- because it will take a day or so for the elementary particles of a solar storm to sweep over the earth.

A big solar storm is likely to have a major impact on our satellites, and power grids -- as they have in the past. My intuitive guess is that the solar storms from this current sunspot cycle are very likely to have a serious disruptive effect on the 500 or so satellites currently in orbit -- much more serious than the effect of the Leonid shower.

As you know, I have also noted that rising sunspot activity tends to correlate with rising US markets for reasons unknown. Some connection with human activity I guess. I do not look forward to what may happen to the markets/economy when sunspot activity starts to peak -- about the time the solar storms start to pick up.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:29 - ID#333264)

Split was a 10/7 or 5/3.5 deal.
Sell em while they're hot. I am hoping for the price to come back down to in the 1.25 range.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:35 - ID#254321)
Missing oil -- hundreds of millions of barrels?
All: Does sound like the COMEX silver story -- but harder to hide. Could it be that someone knows that a confrontation in the middle east is about to occur? On the other hand -- if we continue to have deflationary surprises -- such as a big one in South America -- if someone is hoarding oil -- they could be in for a big surprise.

Just a thought -- the Arab oil producers are sitting on their supplies -- all they have to do is cut production to hoard it some more. Could be that some non - producer types are doing the hoarding.

Just imagine what would happen to the price of oil if the missing oil turns up! Big profits for someone either way.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:46 - ID#344326)
Looks like Y2K panic is picking up...
Celine Dion converting investments into gold and a Sam's Club ( one of those bulk warehouse type places ) was raided by FBI for records of customers hoarding food.

EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:50 - ID#173262)
RANGY ..... RANYD Reverse split
My broker says according to the Dow Jones information wire the split
is 10 for 7. Would someone who subscribes please find the report
and post it?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:51 - ID#176200)
Could you please point me to a reference for the FBI raids on Sam's club.
They could find my warehouse...

Thanks in advance!

Regards, O.L.

Not speaking for my employer.

EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:52 - ID#173262)
Mapleman.....RANGY..RANYD Sell? No way!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:52 - ID#389387)
@Miro - Phalanx guns
I think the NRA are only interested in the depleted Uranium weapon systems % ) Maybe the NRC would be more interested?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:56 - ID#318183)
it is 7 for 10 - not 10 for 7 - maybe someday!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 11:59 - ID#31868)
LGB, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...Today's lecture..."Man...Master of the Universe
has been cancelled due to the weather." From a cartoon I saw in Newsday some 15 or twenty years ago...seems fitting eh...

Time will tell...gosh...that time entity must have files from here to the edge of infinity huh...I mean with everything time has told us over the years...yup...uh huh...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:00 - ID#344326)
@ Open Loop...this is the post I read on Silicon was made by Ole 49r...
This message is from Dave Roberts 11/8/98
I ( a person named Sonya Wilkinson )
was in Dallas this weekend - It ( the Sam's Club FBI raid ) was the Mansfield ( near Ft Worth ) Sam's Club and "it" did happen.

On 11/6/98 Sonya G. Wilkinson wrote ( Dr. ) Gary ( North ) ,
I ( Sonya ) wrote that a friend of mine in Dallas told me that this really happened! A friend of his works there and saw them come into the office and knows they searched the records for "hoarders". I will be there ( in Dallas ) this weekend so if the issue is not settled by then - I will get more info for everyone - how's that? Sonya

[The E*mail that started this all came from Dave Roberts. He participates in an active Y2K e*mail list to which, I ( O/49r ) am not privy to. However, Sonya sometimes pops up on a list I am connected to and that is how I learned of this whole dealie.]

11/6/98 Dave Roberts posts to his Y2K list the following:

The correct location is the Sam's in MANSFIELD, TEXAS...a little town
south of Ft. Worth. It seems that the FBI came in unannounced and said they were "looking for people that were hoarding food."
They ( the FBI )
2 ) took hardcopies,
3 ) checked "links" ( whatever that means )

This info came from a person close to the source. That is all I can say, in keeping with the wishes of the source. The FBI might have made a permanent link to the computer file system so that they can monitor the store files from then on out. Who knows? Wouldn't doubt it, but I can't confirm anything like that. The Sam's Clubphone number in Mansfield, Texas...817-293-9225...
Ask for the manager, Steve: He'll will tell you what he told me, "I'm sorry, but I can neither CONFIRM...nor **DENY** that statement."

my further 2 worth:
BTW, Deutsche Morgan Grenfel's Chief Economist, Ed Yardeni's Y2K speech Friday, weekend must have awakened someone! I was in my bank Saturday AM, and it was 25 deep all the time I was there. I waited in line 1/2 hour before I was waited on. And this is from the Seafirst bunch who brags about service in 5 minutes or else. ( P.S. I didn't ever learn what the or less part was about. ) This is the first time in 7 years this has ever happened to me at this institution. And when I got to the teller's window, there were 24 more folks behind me, waiting their turn!!! And it wasn't even a 1st or 15th "payday weekend!" hmmm


EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:02 - ID#173262)
Mapleman, Skip, Bufford...The name of the game is BUY LOW

Everyone talks about buying low, but few have the insight, patience,
or guts to do it. Remember, in order to make serious money you must be in before the big move.

Remember Silver Standard at 3/4?

Rangy at 21/32?

All the armchair quarterbacks sitting back in fear as the profits of doom
predicted $200 gold!

Sell RANGY ( RANYD ) now before the Roger Kibble tour? Why do you
think the buyers outnumber the sellers for a change?

Price down to 1.25....Wishful thinking. The train is leaving....
All aboard.....!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:10 - ID#413156)
Sugar coated Gold Candy
Sweets for my sweets, Oh to be in love again and give the gift that makes dentists sing Found my thrill in cavity heavenHow sweet it is March sugar Not a recommendation for diabetics.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:12 - ID#31868)
crazytimes, Namaste' gulp and a puff...the FBI huh...people trying to protect their families
are criminals huh...on the other hand if a bunch of nut jobs were buying food to sustain themselves after comitting a heinous crime to hold off the authorities they could very well be justified...the problem nowadays is that the lines are blurred...fellatio is not sex...lies are half truths...we burn WACO to the ground and murder people and then turn around and bomb pharmaceutical plants to get the now infamous terrorist who attacks what he considers to be the great Satan...we outright attack the second ammendment but allow the Chinese Military owned COSCO to smuggle AK-47s into Long Beach...

The rot comes from above in this blurred right and wrong food chain...there are many fine men and women in law doubt about that...none...they are probably as disillusioned as the rest of America when it comes to the law...because the law has become a wall around a select few and open season on the rest...

got irony?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:19 - ID#31868)
crazytimes, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...more blurry lines...a white shade of pale huh...
In nominating Reno in 1993 to become the nation's 78th attorney general, President Clinton emphasized her integrity: "She's demonstrated throughout her career a commitment to principles that I want to see enshrined in the Justice Department: no one is above the law."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:21 - ID#347457)
@NTEOTWAWKI (@Miro - Phalanx guns)
Oh well, what can I say. That would be me - typing without verifying what I typed :- (
NRA, NRC, the same thing ( not ) ;- )

OK, OK I meant NRC might shut down nuclear plants based on safety rules!

That's it from me for today - back to elementary school I go

Mad Hatter
(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:25 - ID#284230)
WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - President Clinton directed his government
Saturday to find a way to close a legal loophole that allows
speakers/journalists to express their ideas at public places with no questions asked.

In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is emerging at seminars and radio talk shows because the First Amendment permits people to express their ideas without background checks.

``Some of these talk shows have become a haven for criminals and hate-speech mongers looking to sway people on a no-questions-asked basis,'' Clinton said.

He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the loophole in the Bill of Rights and to prohibit any free speech without
a background check.

``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check, no free speech, no exceptions,'' Clinton said.

In a fact sheet, the White House said that every week about 35
million people regularly listen to an estimated 50 conservative radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy.

On Nov. 30, 1999 the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background
Check System is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve speech license sales within minutes.

In addition, on Nov. 30, 1999 the law will be strengthened in two ways: purchases of all speech licenses, not just political, will be subject to Reno background checks as will Kinko's printing services, which are four times as likely to involve prohibited printed pinions.

Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of background checks conducted nationally will increase from 0 million to between 10 and 12 million. Unregulated speech is ``an open invitation to criminals and right wing crazies,'' said Janet Reno, who chairs SpeechControl Inc. The Clinton law was named after the President, who was wounded in verbal attacks first launched by radio personality Rush
Limbaugh in 1992.

California and Maryland regulate ``hate speech'', said Reno. Florida voters passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the power to require a waiting period and a background check for speeches at political rallies and other public places.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:29 - ID#20768)
re: 10 RANGY begetting 7 RANYD ......
Is it possible R. Kebble and friends just don't know any better?

Most companies in NA give news, usually weeks in advance, of stock splits.

Why the secrecy?

Bob in DC

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:30 - ID#35571)
Negative interest rates

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:32 - ID#31868)
Mad Hatter, Namaste' gulp and a is a joke...a rewrite of yesterday's
announcement by Clintler on guns sold at gun language police...although the language has been changed...fellatio is no longer sex...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:37 - ID#339274)
FWIW NEM is a buy at 22 with broad support it will probably
make another bounce to test.Stops at 21 3/4.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:42 - ID#339274)
FWIW O/H resistance 127,nice rally and sucking the liquidity out of the

Mad Hatter
(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:43 - ID#284230)
tolerant1 "joke"
What is scary as all hell, is I figure it would be politically acceptable by today's sheeple standards!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 12:59 - ID#254321)
Surges between bonds and stocks
Cyclist: Makes alot of sense -- not enough cash available for stocks and bonds to go up together.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:01 - ID#31868)
Mad Hatter, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...from the Island that is Long...
the silent majority has not spoken in 6 years...this Clintler dirtbag has the smallest base of support of any President in 40 some odd years as is clearly indicated in the percentage of voter turnout and those who voted for him and or his supposed programs...

The silent majority has yet to speak...regular folks...across the country...grandmothers and grandfathers...Moms and Dads...single parents Mr. and Ms. Backbone of America...the lady delivering that UPS package...the fella handing you your diner on the flight from Pittsburgh to Seattle...the fella at the gas station...the lady at the flower shop...regular good old fashioned Americans...ya know...the folks who have listened to Keith Jackson call college football for the past 30-40 years...the folks who truly understand the thanks and giving on Thanksgiving Day...yup...uh huh...Mr. and Mrs....Mr. and Ms. REGULAR America...they just don't like talkin with their mouthes full...believe me...they are still chewing on good old fashioned Apple pie and looking out the window at THEIR American flags...

In my opinion the last poll Clintler remembers will be the one the American people shove in him where the Sun don't shine...yup...uh huh...

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:02 - ID#270253)
Weird Stuff!!!
I talked to the Bank of New York ADR dept., which takes care of Randgold in North America. They told me that 7 RANDY adr's and $2.50 will get you 10 of the new Randgold Resources ADR. RANYD represent the old ADR's with this offer attached to it. I can't figure this one out at all.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:04 - ID#25295)
sucks liquidity out of stock and bond markeys, that sounds cool.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:08 - ID#269409)
SILVER...SILVER..... Increased consumption???
Below, a couple tidbits gleaned from the net on potential increases in silver usage. One promising development is the use of silver for high effeiciency electrical lines..... if this spreads far and wide usage could be in thousands of tons... remember, contrary to popular myths re Gold and copper, the truth is that SILVER is by far the most efficient metal for conductivity. ( Lowest resistance, highest conductivity ) .

Also below, latest info. from SIlver institue indicating projected increases in photography consumption of silver...and photography is by far the biggest single usage for silver consumption currently.

* The New York Times reports that a new high-capacity, superconducting power line will go into operation in Detroit by
the year 2000. The line is composed of a mixture of bismuth, strontium, calcium and copper oxide, to which a bit of
lead is added. Then, this mixture is packed into SILVER tubes!!!

* NEW YORK, Nov 4 ( Reuters ) - The use of
silver by the photography industry worldwide is projected to rise by 10 percent over the next five years, according to a report published by the Washington DC-based Silver Institute.

In 1997, photography accounted for 27 pct of worldwide silver fabrication

``Silver's quality, convenience and low cost will carry this ( traditional silver halide photographic ) technology into the next millenium, despite the growth in electronic photography,'' said the report's author and industry consultant, Peter Krause.

Total consumption of silver for photographic uses is expected to rise to 255 million ounces by 2002 from 232 million ounces in 1997.

Amateur photographers rely on conventional cameras and color negative films to take 75 billion snapshots annually.

``This sector more than any other depends on the simplicity, convenience, low cost and high quality of silver-halide photographic systems,'' Krause said.

``By 2002, the volume of film sold to amateur photographers is expected to increase 24 pct, while color-paper volume will rise 33 percent.''

In terms of cost, the average price of conventional cameras is about $120 and the cost of 20 prints is $11. By comparison, the price of amateur digital cameras, averages about $300, while 25 prints cost about $20, the report said.

Traditional color film also produces better quality photographs as it has about 20 million pixels or picture elements in a frame of 35 mm film, compared with only 300,000 pixels in the typical sensor of an amateur digital camera.

The use of digital cameras has grown in the professional and commercial
photography sector due to the instant transmission, rapid access and easy filing and retrieval featues of digital technology.

Silver use is seen rising by 2.0 to 2.5 pct annually in the X-ray sector which includes medical, industrial and dental photographic applications.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:08 - ID#176200)
@crazytimes .MadHatter.tolerant1
Thanks for the reply! Boy this stuff is just starting to get scary!
I would not be a bit surprised if it is completly true. The problem is
that they do not have enough guys to deal with the armed masses who
would not stand for that kind of invasion. ( like me ) :- ) )

As for the thing on Speech approval et all. I have discussed this on
the fone with MadHatter and we have come to the conclusion that just
the way it was worded, would sound great to the masses on the left
and many on the right and could very well be real and no one would care.
At least that is the way things seem to be headed.

As for the presidential drivel on stopping gun shows etc., I go to these
and buy things there because the 2nd ammendment says I can.
I am one of those "pry the gun from around my cold dead fingers"
type of guy. We will all be felons by decree!

Sheriff Joe Arpiao's jail tax here in Arizona passed to build more jails. 60% of the people in Arizona jails are in for non violent drug offenses.
It should be pretty clear as to what the problem is here huh?

Regards to all. O.L.

Not speaking for my employer

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:18 - ID#290287)
Don't know how much silver is in treatment systems but I wonder if silver will be increasingly used to disinfect water..

- sam

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:20 - ID#24135)
pleasa checka my numbahs
for mike ..
randgold resources trades in London at $2.38 the
last time I looked .. Now just to complicate things
Half of rangolds assets are comprised of RRS.
If what your broker says is right then seven rangy's
+ $2.5 get 10 RRS at $2.38..
so 7 ( rangy ) + 2.5 = 10 *2.38 ..
and rangy = ( 23.8 -2.5 ) /7 = $3.04 ..

all this leads me to believe that your adr man is
screwed up .. I should be so lucky...
or ...
does he mean
7 rangys plus 7 time 2.5 get you 10 RRS ..

7 rangy +17.5 = 10*2.38
or rangy = ( 23.8 -17.5 ) /7 = $0.9

yawn .. if that's the case so what else is new.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:20 - ID#269409)
It's tempting to call the below a win/win agreement for these 2 companies. The problem with using the phrase, is that overusedcorporate yuppie speak crap like "win/win" , and "paradigm shift"....always makes me want to break the jaw of the schmuck who uses the phrase!!!

Monday November 9, 8:58 am Eastern Time

Company Press Release

SOURCE: Pan American Silver Corp.

Pan American Silver and Oroperu Resources Option-to-Sell Tres
Cruces Gold Property to Battle Mountain Gold Company For +31.6

VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Nov. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Pan American Silver Corp. ( Nasdaq: PAASF - news; Toronto: PAA - news ) is
pleased to announce the signing of a definitive agreement, subject to registration formalities, granting Battle Mountain Gold Company
[NYSE:BMG - news] the option to acquire 100% of the Tres Cruces gold property in northern Peru.

The Tres Cruces property is owned 50:50 by Pan American Silver and Oroperu Resources and is located adjacent to Pan American's
producing Quiruvilca silver mine. Gold mineralization was discovered in late 1996 and delineated in 1997 by a 61 hole ( 13,580 metre ) drilling
program. A preliminary resource of 30.8 million tonnes grading 2.00 grams of gold per tonne ( nearly 2 million ounces of gold ) was
calculated by Oroperu in late 1997. Metallurgical testwork in 1998 indicated the gold mineralization at Tres Cruces is partly in oxidized rock
with good heap leachable gold recoveries, and partly in sulphidic rock requiring milling and possible pre-oxidation treatment. Since much of
the property is untested by drilling, excellent potential exists to increase known gold resources.

To exercise the purchase option, Battle Mountain must pay to Pan American Silver and Oroperu jointly US$0.6 million on document
registration in Peru, US$2 million on the first anniversary, US$2 million on the second anniversary and US$27 million on the third
anniversary. Battle Mountain will also fund at least US$2.5 million in exploration expenditures in each year and pay all land holding costs.

After exercising the option, Battle Mountain will make future payments based on recoverable gold reserves in excess of 1,500,000 ounces on
the basis of $20 per heap leachable gold ounce and $10 per non-heap leachable gold ounce. These payments will be made annually up to $2
million, and the remaining amount upon a production decision by Battle Mountain.

Pan American Silver and Oroperu Resources will retain jointly a royalty on all gold ounces discovered after a production decision and
recovered in mining ranging from 2.0 to 4% of net smelter returns depending on the prevailing gold price and on whether the ounces are heap
leach recoverable or non-heap leach recoverable.

Battle Mountain Gold Company is a major gold producing company with expected 1998 gold production of 875,000 ounces from six mines
internationally, including the large Kori Kollo gold mine in Bolivia which is located in a similar physical, geological and cultural environment
to Tres Cruces. Battle Mountain is achieving encouraging results from bio-oxidation and heap leaching of sulphidic gold ores at Korri Kollo
which may have application at Tres Cruces.

Mr. Ross Beaty, CEO of Pan American Silver commented, ``Battle Mountain is a fine company with good operating experience in a similar
environment to Tres Cruces and with the motivation to aggressively explore the property's potential for a much larger gold reserve. I am
confident they will exercise the purchase option and develop a major new gold mine for Peru at Tres Cruces.''

Battle Mountain has now commenced the Tres Cruces exploration program, which will include extensive metallurgical testwork and drilling,
including 3000 meters of drilling expected to be completed by the end of 1998.

Pan American elected to sell its 50% interest in Tres Cruces to retain its focus on silver. The Company now produces 3 million ounces of
silver a year from its Quiruvilca mine in Peru and expects to increase its silver production to over 18 million ounces annually by 2001
following development of its planned new silver mines at La Colorada, Mexico and Dukat, Russia.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:23 - ID#31876)
Matt Drudge - HULK FOR PRESIDENT? (This isn't a joke...well, yea, I guess it is.)
"Forget Jesse 'The Body' Ventura for Minnesota govenor.
'Hollywood' Hulk Hogan for president! -- so reports
Monday's LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS. In the wake of Ventura's
stunning electorial victory Tuesday, Hogan now says that he
is ready to toss his own hat into something other than the
wrestling ring."


(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:24 - ID#252150)
Iraq poll@The semi-comotose, indoctrinated TV zombies have spoken
& think that the USG should unilaterely attack. Most of them would'nt be able to find Iraq on a globe, would'nt be aware that 100s of thousands of children have died because of USG genocidal policy. And if they were made aware, the heartless, souless bas*ards would find a way to rationalize it.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:26 - ID#347457)
@Gold and Glenn, are you awake?
What a dull day for Gold. It just sits there ... no movement. The way it goes, Glenn must be falling asleep on a trading floor ;- )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:27 - ID#194311)
Gingrich knows what's coming.
For such a rabid fighter to roll over and play dead without a whimper makes you wonder. Why would this man give the second most powerful position in US without a fight?

Why are the Republicans running away from this position? I think they know better.

Bad times are a coming, expect many more "resignations", "retirements" in the course of the next year as the weak and twisted let go of the reings of power which they should never had held.

Perhaps we could keep a Kitco running total?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:32 - ID#31868)
Open-Loop, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...clearly drugs should be legalized but
the government will never do it...they make too much illegal money and the tax money they spend on all the enforcement, etc. is too lucrative and last but not least...what better way to create a police state than to tell the sheeple it is for their protection from all those drug crazed maniacs...

Cut the legs out from all of it...legalize drugs...

How many hundreds...yes...HUNDREDS of billions of dollars have been spent and drugs are flowing into the USA at increased rates each and every year...

all that glitters is not gold...

want to force all the illegal money out into the light of day...change the color of the greenback over night...all green dollars not turned in within the next 14 days will be worthless...yup...uh huh...I wonder how many politicians would have heart attacks at the mention of such an under taking...

got hidden money?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:34 - ID#246224)
needing help here @TheJokes
Since the actual news is getting as weird as the made up, yuk-yuk, news we sometimes post her .. could we make a pact to use a symbol to indicate fake/real status at the end of a "Story". I'm not kidding here. Having trouble keeping it all straight.


real story = FRAFT ( For Real And For True ) = %~]

joke story = JPYL ( Just Pulling Your Leg ) = 8~{}

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:34 - ID#31868)
LGB, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...ITRO my friend...yup...uh huh...zoom to the moon... yowzer...yup...uh huh...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:35 - ID#318271)
kiwi +
imo, newt is preparing to "save" the country by running for president, 2000. love that gold, silver and esp, GPGI.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:36 - ID#290287)
I think we will see more Seattle Film Works type operations using digital to add a new dimension to silver-based photo, and silver to make digital images convenient, cheaper and fun for many.

- sam

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:39 - ID#24135)
hold it ..
Mike ..
RRS closed at $2.42 in London today ..
Up a bit .. so numbers are a bit
better ..
... this is a pretty simple way to
start unlocking the rangy discount ..
ie let a shareholder convert into
one of the assets it holds .. via
a "split"

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:51 - ID#194311)
LGB...Silver-walled superconducting tube.
Yep, I posted this a while back. It seems the the superconductivity gets set up in "vortices" running along the length at the junction between the silver and the powder in the tube...strange. So the idea is to make a bundle ( not of money ) of these tubes so to maximise superconductivity. Here's a starting link for anyone who's interested, good to see at last some infrastructural gains being had from superconductivity, present conduction systems are woefully inefficient.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:52 - ID#153102)
@Bully Beef
Saw your silly post regarding Gott mit uns on Nazi paraphernalia. It puts me in mind of In God We Trust on greenbacks. Or Clintons statement It's between me, my wife, and our God. E'en the devil will quote scripture if it fits his purpose.

Nobody fought in WWII to stop genocide. Most everybody fought because they were conscripted. Pawns of godless men in power who would and did use every tactic to compel and urge them to sacrifice themselves for other's ends. In conformity with the Rockefeller Credo, I might add. And in Germany, USSR, and USA, the leadership was socialist.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:54 - ID#290172)
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 175.774 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 292.400 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 175.490 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 292.050 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 3.0045 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 9 Nov 1998 ) : 4.9950 US Dollars

(Mon Nov 09 1998 13:54 - ID#270227)
Jr's need "Hero" stock for new Bull
This could be the one.....I think it's worth the read:

I am getting behind Mirandor in a very public way and thought this
forum might like to see my commentary on the company.
My Cafe address is

Midas du Metropole
"The Gold Market and Precious Metals Commentary"

November 6, 1998 - Spot Gold $292.80 down 80 cents - Spot Silver
$5.013 down 2 cents

Technicals -

Steady as she goes. While gold set back a bit today, it is running
away from its $290 support level, basis Dec. All the important
moving averages are coagulating around this area and may influence
the day to day trading. The CFTC Commitments of Trader report,
released after the close, was constructive. The big specs went
from around 16,000 long to 18,000 contracts short as of last
Tuesday. The little guys reduced their longs and the commercials
went from 30,000 contracts short to 13,000 contracts long. No
change here for us. We are bullish and continue to watch the base
build. $335 is our first objective.

The price of silver has roared back from its trashing earlier in
the week and the fact that it closed above $5 puts a smile on our
face for the weekend. The premiums in India are still firm and are
ample to draw supply into the country. We look for new highs in
the recovery move to light up the scoreboard in the near future.

Fundamentals -

Rueters headline ( Nov. 5 ) - Japan sees biggest gold boom since

"Japan is now seeing something similar to its "gold rush" of
bullion buying in 1995 against a backdrop of unrest after an
earthquake devastated Kobe in January and a nerve gas attack by
cult members on the Tokyo metropolitan subway system in March.

This time, traders said, the backdrop is global financial turmoil,
Japan's worst banking crises in postwar history and the nation's
"Big Bang" financial deregulation, all of which have made people
think about the necessity of protecting their assets.

And in both cases what triggered the buying was the yen's surge
against the dollar, as a stronger yen brought about lower retail
gold prices on the local currency base, they said. "

As you know, we have reported that one of our sources has alerted
us to consistent Asian central bank buying. That information was
corroborated from a different source yesterday. It appears Goldman
Sachs, good ole Goldman again, is going around to various
producers telling them that gold is going to $260. At the same
time, we understand that they are holding a big buy order from an
Asian central bank. Even the news services know it. Reuters (
Nov.4 ) gold." only recovered some ground today because of
further heavy buying by one investment bank."

Times are changing. It looks like American golden eagle coin sales
will be the best in 11 years in the U.S.

Bill O'Neill, the well known, Merrill Lynch precious metals
specialist, and oft seen as a commentator on CNBC, called
yesterday to say that I had left the wrong impression in my last
Midas du Metropole commentary about their position on the central
bank sale issue. I saw his point and told him I would let our
members know that, indeed, they ( Merrill ) have been very correct
on this issue. I was referring to a specific sale which is not
worth going into. I also told him that in previous Midas
commentary, we had given them credit for being the most right over
the past two years.

Here, forward is another matter. Since I had the opportunity to
chat with him, I asked Bill for his views. He said that he felt
that the worst was over for the gold market, but that he was only
neutral for the future price of gold. I told him that I saw $400
gold in the cards and explained the reasons for my view.

It is his opinion that a bull move is not in those cards for gold,
unless gold becomes monetized again. His view is that they ( the
central banks ) do not want the stuff anymore and will continue to
sell. If that were to change, he would change his mind and told me
he would rather be bullish, but he just cannot see the case at
this point in time. This is no surprise coming from Merrill, but
it appears New York, Merrill is not as bearish as London Merrill.

London ( Reuters ) Nov. 4, - Merrill Lynch sees 5-year gold range
of $200-$300. "Mine and central bank sales plus Asian dishoarding
set against likely dollar weakness will confine gold to a $100
range an ounce for the next five years, Merrill Lynch said in a
report seen on Wednesday. Capping the price would be sales, or
feared sales ,by euro-zone national central banks, the
International Monetary Fund, and Switzerland. " It would clearly
appear that his associate in London, Ted Arnold, does not share
Bill's view that the worst is over for gold.

We take a different view, are very bullish, and you know our
reasons for disagreeing with the Merrill people. A big one is that
we believe central banks do want gold. They are just Asian in
origin. For example, we reported that Canada just reported selling
about two tonnes of gold, but Mongolia just announced it has
bought seven tonnes of gold so far in 1998.

We also have stressed that we believe gold WILL retain its safe
haven role in the years to come while Merrill does not see that.
"Economic dream team" member and widely followed banking
specialist, Charles Peabody agrees with the Midas view. Last
night, I drove down to Boston to visit with Charles, who was in
town for a banking convention and we hit Beantown for some very
good chow. After enjoying some fun family talk about his 5 kids,
realizing we are both Merrill Lynch and Drexel Burnham alums and
learning of his former stint in Europe as a professional soccer
player, I pummeled Charles for his opinions on all that was going
on in the banking world ( his pieces will be posted shortly ) and
what effect it all might have on the price of gold in the future.

It is Charles's opinion that the well educated bankers of the
modern generation have used every derivative play in the books
and, in many cases, have used those derivatives to supplant the
role of gold. He also believes more derivative blow ups are coming
( possibly this spring ) and that when it is all said and done,
that it will be the excessive use of the derivatives that will go
into disfavor and the role of gold will come back into favor as
the safe haven place to be among the banking community. So,
Charles sees a healthy bull move in gold on the horizon. ( P.S.
Announced today- Nov.4 - Bloomberg - "Long- Term Capital
Management,.., may sell about $1.5 billion of German government
bonds as part of a planned reduction of its investment portfolio.
Gerd Neitzel, German money manager," They're saying to the banks,
bid for our bonds and we'll pay back on our loans, eventually." )

Then we touched on the Department of Labor's leaking of the U.S.
non-farm payroll number that showed more weakness in the
employment front than was anticipated. It is Charles's opinion
that it was flagrant manipulation of the market place as the 5 and
10 year note auctions went poorly and the 30 year auction did look
too good. The government was concerned that if the triple bottom
at 126.02 ( about the 100 day moving average too ) was broken, the
market could dive, so they leaked some bullish news for the market
to absorb. It just so happens that their maneuver worked but today
the bond market swooned down to 125 before rallying a bit.

. How much do you think it saved our government to keep the price
up higher for that one extra day?

Charles thinks, like we do, that our government is manipulating
the markets ( including gold ) and that history will show this. It
his is opinion that some day in the future we will have another
Pecora Commission. Back in the 30's Ferdinand Pecora presided over
the financial tycoons of the day and sent some of them to jail for
manipulating the markets.

Potpourri and the Gold Shares -

The XAU has had a meteoric thrust to the upside to 85 yesterday
before setting back today to close at 79.28 down 3.78 as it held
its 50 day and 200 day moving average points ( a divergence from
the bullion which did not ) and its up trend line. A move above
the 86.5 area will break a 1 1/2 year down trend. This is not
unusual action ( the XAU move up ) prior to a big gold move.

As we have said before, the so called smart money, smelling a gold
move parks some big dough with the well capitalized gold
companies. They do so because of the liquidity, safety, ability to
buy ( and sell ) and the fact that an investment in the shares
does not have the time constraint, or contango issues, that
options and futures have.

The next ones to move ( in general ) should be the juniors that
have production, then the exploration firms that have found
resources, and finally those looking for the resources. There are
many good precious metals companies out there and we will be
talking about a lot of them in the Caf in the months and years to
come. We will try and present the ones that we like, and are
investing our own money in, to you. A good many of them will be
brought to our attention by you, the Caf members. I am no
rockhound, but we have access to, and are utilyzing, one of the
best in the business to assist us in making the best judgement
calls that we can. We are running out many ground balls on various
companies. It takes time to do the due diligence ( for our own
investment purposes ) . At the same time we stress that we are not
investment advisors. This is a Caf. We will evaluate companies
ourselves and continue to present appropriate commentary from the
members, so that we can all try and tell it as we see it. We
believe that, in the giant precious metals bull move to come,
there is much money on the table, if one bets on the right horses.
The Caf search for thoroughbreds is on.

Thus far we are in:

Golden Star Resources - 1 1/2

Canarc Resource Corp - 30 cents Cdn.

Durban Deep - 3 1/16

Greenstone Resources - $2 Cdn.

We have an outstanding silver play ( they are hard to find ) that
we will be bringing to your attention shortly, as we wait to learn
if a financing package goes through that will allow the company to
go to commercial silver production by the end of the first quarter
in 1999.

Today, we bring on a pure exploration play, a bit ahead of
schedule. Mainly because they just saw their highest volume the
other day ( 1.84 million shares ) in two years, so we are going to
touch on it now, so that you can follow it. Something may be up.

One of the first Le Metropole members was Brandon. We have
interracted over the internet for some time and I was impressed
with his acumen. Many months ago he began to pound away to me
about Exploration Mirandor Inc. I had heard of the company through
gold aficionado and highly regarded brain surgeon, Dr. James Wood,
who also happens to be a vice president of the company.

It so happened that Mirandor President Jim Sperros was attending
an internet show in New York a few weeks back so I drove down to
New York and back in a driving rainstorm. Took me 14 hours, but it
was worth it. Jim Sperros is a winner and is well known in social
and business circles in Montreal and Washington. It does not hurt
that he coached on two Super Bowl Washington Redskin teams and was
the owner of the only US team ( Baltimore Stallions ) in history
to win the CFL Grey Cup.

On the same trip I met George Tsiolis, an attorney and President
of Agora International Enterprises Corp, a firm, that among other
things, produces a splendid and successful investment internet
publication. George is a big supporter of Mirandor and the meeting
convinced me that I should continue Midas interest. When I saw the
extremely heavy volume in the shares on the Montreal Exchange the
other day, I decided to pluck down some bucks and bring this to
your attention. I will plunk down some more bucks in the future.

Le Metropole member, Brandon, is more eloquent about the
appropriate positives about Mirandor than I could ever be, so I am
presenting his communique to the membership. In addition, you can
go to the thread commentary section ( after the Midas commentary )
to review his thread, "MIQ on Montreal, My Junior Pick", which was
posted in the Caf two months ago. I would like to add that the
Carlin Trend produces about 65% of the gold produced in North

1 ) The Gold Window on Mirandor's Railroad Project Property in the
Carlin Trend.

Mirandor's Railroad Property in Nevada has the 2nd largest Gold
Window in the Carlin Trend. A Gold Window is an anomoly where
platlettes have been pushed up within the earth and mineralization
is evident at shallow depths. The 1st largest gold window in the
Carlin Trend is owned by Barrick Gold within their Goldstrike
property just north of Mirandor's Railroad project, it contains 25
million plus ounces and counting. The 3rd largest Gold window is
Newmont's property just north of Mirandor's and sandwiched between
Barrick and Mirandor's property, this gold window to-date has
resulted in a reserve of 8 million ounces plus.

The "2nd largest" gold window in the Carlin Trend is located on
MIQ's Railroad Property in the Carlin Trend. It is in the initial
stages of exploration with approximatly 20-30 holes drilled in
various zones of the property at shallow depths. All zones have
returned significant to great mineralization, with the POD zone
and the Bunker Hill zone show the strongest results and
essentially being in the middle of the Gold window.

2 ) The Location of Mirandor's Railroad Project being in the Carlin
Trend in Nevada.

This is significant because this is one of the most prolific
area's in the world to mine gold at shallow depths and low cost's.
The Railroad Project contains 15 past producing mines ( copper,
lead, gold, silver ) all located within a Carlin Window of lower
plate sedementary rocks outcropping along the Pinon/Anticle
structure. The majority of the gold deposits are contained within
Carlin Window's of lower plate sedementary rocks. This description
identifies MIQ's property the best.

3 ) Drill Results prior to the Kinross Deal being signed were

The drill results ( 1996 & 1997 ) prior to the Kinross Deal were
exceptional. It included significant results from a number of
zones and the discovery of additional shallow mineralization in
other zones. These zones include, POD, Bunker Hill, LT East,
Elliott High Ranch and Dark Star. There are still other zones that
are wildcat deposit's showing strong potential that haven't even
been explored.

The best results were from the POD zone, where drilling in January
1997 intersected 3 holes with significant gold mineralization with
the best hole averaging close to .07 oz/ton over 170 feet. POD had
never been drilled at depth, but one hole close to a fault
structure 200 feet below surface intersected .54 oz/ton over 18
feet. Additional drilling in the POD zone continued to come up
with great results. It is expected that additional results will be
coming out this year from the POD zone.

POD .101 oz/ton gold over 55 feet

The Bunker Hill zone intersected even better results than the POD
zone, including a polymetalic gold discovery ( coverage provided in
the Northern Miner ) . With some of the following significant
results prior to the Kinross Deal signed:

Among the results announced prior to the Kinross deal

Bunker Hill .44 oz/ton gold over 20 feet .35 copper .555 zinc

2nd Hole. 165 oz/ton gold over 45 feet .7615 copper .155 zinc

4 ) The Kinross Deal

In November of 1997, at the depths of this Gold Bear and based on
approximatly only 20 holes drilled on the Railroad Project, 6
majors approached MIQ to do a joint venture on the property. The
final choice was to go with Kinross because part of the deal was
that the project would not be shelved until a better Gold market
was evident, so that exploration would be immediate. Kinross has
committed to putting 17 million US$ into the property for
exploration and a full feasibility study.

5 ) Recent Trading

The latest trading in MIQ and BX ( BREX, not to be confused with
BRE-X ) has been volatile and heavy. This appears to be due to the
expectation of results. Brex owns 25% of the POD zone which has
had the strongest results to-date. It appears that the insider's
are positioning for some good results again to be expected.

6 ) The Carlin Trend has numerous shallow deposit's, which are the
most economical. It costs anywhere from $90 to $140 per ounce to
mine gold in this prolific area of the world for gold. Even in
today's market this is very profitable at shallow depths. While
result's to-date are already showing that there is a strong
possibility of a shallow open pit mine. The kicker will be when
drilling goes down to over 1000 feet, traditionally in the Carlin
Trend this is where the highest grades are found and from all
other indication so far this could be similar to Barrick and
Newmont's property and depths.

7 ) Management

The management is a number of rock hounds in general with their
President James Speros, being the deal maker and promotional wing
of the company. The company is very cost conscious and will not
promote too much in this gold environment until they have more
concrete results.

James Speros, was the driving force behind the Kinross Deal which
essentially has provided the company with the means to continue to
drill without raising additional cash and having any dillution of
shares while having the integrity of Kinross behind them when
results are released.

Mirandor ( MIQ ) trades on the Montreal Exchange and closed today
at 35 cents Cdn. up 9 cents


Bill Murphy ( Midas )

After graduating from Cornell University, Bill was a starting wide
receiver with the Patriots of the old American Football League and
has been around the financial and commodities markets ever since.
He owned a futures firm in N. Y. that specialized in precious
metals and was a contributor to Veneroso Associates, a global
strategic investment firm and producer of the 1998 Gold Book

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:08 - ID#339274)
FWIW cycle low around 15:30.EST

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:19 - ID#270253)
Da Kine
The Baltimore Stallions went broke and owed money to everyone. Jim Sperros owned them. He was a promoter with very little behind him. He is perfect for junior gold stock promotion.

Another CFL owner/stock promoter from that era was Larry Ryckman. He too went broke leaving unpaid creditors including Doug Flutie ( $400,000 ) . Today, he has left Canada to start over in Arizona.

The recently departed CEO of Golden Star was a former Edmonton Eskimo football player. I think his reputation was intact.

Do we have a contrary indicator here?? Beware of Canadian football owners/players??

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:29 - ID#176200)
tolerant1...Hitting the nail squarely on the ol' head brother!
Yep! What you stated is the absolute truth of the matter. The #1 cash crop in California is , you guessed it, Pot! The street value of all the
drugs imported into this country far exceeds the value of any other
commidity, except maybe oil. The war on drugs is a complete farce and
has little or no effect on supply on the streets of the U.S.

I guess they did not learn that proabition does not work and never will.

Instead of spending hundreds of billions, they could be making hundreds
of billions through regulation and taxation, if it was only legal.

The people who want to do drugs are doing them now and IMVHO making them
legal would not change a thing in our society except free up space in
our jails for people who need to be there and put all the DEA idiots out
of work. Oh my god!, the horror!!

Best regards O.L.

Not speaking for my employer.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:33 - ID#298259)
Mike Stewart...
Apparently the quote systems are messed up on is actually up about 3/4 today. For the 7 for 10 split...13/16 x 7 + 2.50 = 8.1875 and 13/16 x 10 = 8.125...seems to make sense.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:39 - ID#266105)

chas ( Anybody & Everybody re derivatives ) ID#147201:
For thos interested, I would appreciate comments re which individual financial number may indicate the derivatives blowup. IE- a dramatic "overnite" change in a significant statistic.


I've seen the TED spread called a confidence indicator
as regards the financial system. It widened significantly
in the recent spate of market turmoil.

Still holding a slug of rangy at this kybd, any info

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:47 - ID#339274)
ear to the ground
FWIW I hear the fed coming,sold my bonds 127 and sold oex puts.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:51 - ID#270227)
Mike Stewart.....Thanks.
You are correct but in MIQ's case I doubt that Kinross will let him do much more than the reason they HIRED him.....and that is within the field of Public Relation & Contacts.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 14:52 - ID#18355)
hm call activity
big spike in jan 12 1/2 calls, looks like 1000 traded up at 1 5/16.
the volume was in the dirt at 60 contracts or so before the spike, looks to be on the buy side. interesting action on a boring, lackluster day.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:06 - ID#242214)
Can you tell to a Kitcohollic... if we can count on a contengency plan if the power is be... shoot out of the sky our beloved forum?
Do we have a plan B whith with BART?
EXPECT the WORST! Here in Canada we use only Pepper...Ha!
When the LIGHT will go OFF here at Kitco, WHERE do we regroup and how and under which conditions?
Can Bart e-mail individualy every old safe Kitcoists and make a new FREEDOM forum avaliable?
And for how long?
Am I too skisoph?
Did anybody had any toughts about that? EVER?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:13 - ID#253260)
new symbol
Could we change the symbol of cch to cchy .... please?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:18 - ID#227290)
This is a test. I'm not sure I have the right password.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:20 - ID#31876)
Come right in! The door's wide open for ya. How you been??

Mad Hatter
(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:21 - ID#284230)
Y2K KITCO@Oliver
Smoke signals have been effective in the past.
Are Y2K complient.
Although...we made need to improvise with digital smoke sigs.

Actually, if you loose power lines, you will loose phone lines,which means you loose your internet host, which means you own a box with a fan on it, even if you have back up power.

The only way I know is too use emergency HAM radio connected to PACKET
radio. You can send ( via the airwaves and battery powered repeater ) digital mode transmissions that any dumb terminal or P/C can interpret.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:23 - ID#400260)
Your insights have been missed--as I look for you each day. Welcome back---I hope you're here to stay.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:23 - ID#246224)
When the lights go out I do not think anyone here will worry to much about getting back onto Kitco for a while. Possibly we should be saving the archives like old magazines to be read during that long, cold winter. UGH! Then light the stove with the next one. We can all congratulate ourselves about how smart we were, yes? Qui!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:27 - ID#288466)
Pennaluna Prospector update
A new Prospector update edition is now posted at
the following website:

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:30 - ID#339274)
FWIW got filled 22 3/16,stop 21 7/8

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:31 - ID#246224)
Mad Hatter
You are truly showing the depths of your "Kitco-holic" deprivation. Going to ANY LENGTHS to get your fix ... even suggesting HAM Data Packets. That's a far cry from the golden tippling glass of the Internet, chum! ;- )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:32 - ID#377196)
The earlier post re Clinton's speech against freedom of speech is Bogus
Thank Heavens. Was scary enough I sent that news item to a number of friends and got this back from one of them who has worked for the NY Times and is well connected enough I think she is to be trusted when she tells me it's bogus. Here is her E Mail to me: My colleague Sandra Waldman is the Council's public information officer.
She deals with the press on our behalf and is a very saavy lady. Her son
Michael is Clinton's chief speech writer. The item you saw is
balderdash. It's yet another attack on Clinton who, as it happens, is
verythoroughly for free speech. There are more idiots out there than
ants, alas, and lots of them are not fans of the President.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:34 - ID#266105)

Drooy 11/9 filing of something afoot but no indication of what.

Rangy grade for shareholder notification of significant developments:


Maybe it's just a standing ovation for opening nite of the
Kebble roadshow in NYC. If wishes were horses and pigs could

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:34 - ID#298259)
FWIW I believe many people were confused in buying RANYD today due to the fact that the quote services were showing the stock was down on the open...and most of the day - I know I was.

The quote services are now reporting the correct price...up 3/4...I will be curious to see what happens tomarrow with the stock. I bought and sold today at a small profit after someone here reported the correct split information.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:34 - ID#288186)
Per this article from FWN, Platinum and Sugar are the way to go!
Futures World News - November 09, 1998 14:54

Traders data suggest sugar and platinum futures may be on the verge of sharp upswings in price, said
Michael Williams, managing director of Genesis Partners.

"We have very, very strong indications of bottoms being made here," said Williams. Pointing to both
sugar and platinum futures, he explained that recent Commodity Futures Trading Commission
( CFTC ) data revealed "heavy buying in these areas by the commercials while the funds are very

Looking at sugar, Williams said, "we are seeing record short levels in sugar right now." March sugar
futures have been languishing in a downtrend for much of 1998, hitting the low for the year at 7.15
cents on Oct. 7. Since that day, prices have been edging modestly higher off that low.

"The last time we were this long on commercials and this short in the funds was June 19," said
Williams. On the weekly sugar chart, nearby futures hit a low at 7.20 cents that week and
subsequently rallied up to 9.12 cents over the next five weeks.

The March contract is currently hovering just beneath very short-term resistance at the 8.08/8.10
cent mark. "As soon as we get above 8.15 to 8.20 I believe that is where the funds should have to
get out and we should see a short- covering rally," the analyst said.

A similar situation exists in the platinum market, currently, Williams said. "From a commercial
perspective they have never been this long, while funds are record short."

The latest CFTC data revealed commercials net long over 2,600 contracts, Williams said. "The last
time commercials were long just over 2,000 ( contracts ) , platinum went from $340 to $432," he said,
pointing to the rally begun in December 1997. "We went almost $100 an ounce higher-- rapidly.

"As far as the funds go, they are short over 4,800 contracts" in platinum. "They've never been that
short," Williams said. Pointing to that same rally that began in December 1997, Williams said, "funds
were short 2,400 contracts then--they are short twice as much now."
This ties in nicely with RJ's posts, as well as Steve Kaplan's web site... ( also, whoever else has posted here about platinum's positive
outlook ) Way to go team!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:37 - ID#336393)
FWIW I believe many people were confused in buying RANYD today due to the fact that the quote services were showing the stock was down on the open...and most of the day - I know I was.

The quote services are now reporting the correct price...up 3/4...I will be curious to see what happens tomarrow with the stock. I bought and sold today at a small profit after someone here reported the correct split information.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:43 - ID#325184)
MM and Voyeur Professor
Thanks for the feedback. If either of you happen to come across something that may shed some more light on FGLDX, I would appreciate it if you would pass it on.

Voyeur Professor: I remember when FGLDX went briefly above $9. Unfortunately I didn't take advantage. But, if you look at the stats for FGLDX you'll notice that its been in the bottom 20% of similar funds for 1 year, 3 years, and since inception. I can't help but wonder what Mr. Leonard is doing.

I have also invested in USAGX and OPGSX whose management objective is similar to FGLDX. They are invested in some of the same top holdings ( Euro Nevada Mining, Stillwater Mining, for all three, LIHIR Gold, Freeport McMoran, and Franco-Nevada Mining for FGLDX and USAGX ) . In fact, 43.8% of FGLDX's holdings are also held by USAGX ( to the tune of 26.4% ) . Yet, both USAGX and OPGSX are plus YTD while FGLDX is -18%. Just kind of makes you wonder?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:46 - ID#246224)
Gelded Gold
Today we see it placidly led here and there without a care. 'Do you have oats for me?' Yes, oats. 'And good, leafy hay also?' Yes, with clover too. 'Then I will go were you lead me.'

But in the deep night, when the storm descends upon the quiet glen; when lightning cracks like artillery with its shuddering forces, then we shall see who can lead gold thusly.

The derivative storm is gathering its anger for the hubris of men. And when it boils forth from its secret chambers there will be no 'placid' gelding gold.

1100#'s of fightened horse is never 'led' but leads.

Best be to one side or the other when THAT thing starts.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:51 - ID#432395)
@OLIVER--The plan is we all meet at the Club Super Sex, on St.Catherines, across from Eatons. OUI.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:51 - ID#242214)
Allen USA Mad Hatter
I am not talking about Y2K or technical....I am talking about deliberated thinked.....,calculated,.......analysed.. means to stop this forum to discuse about the truth in a so open FORUM!
Is it less important than a Sam`s Store Heaordinggggggggggg?

Last Chance For Y2K Candor -- With No More Legal
Roadblocks For Not Disclosing Information About The
Year 2000 Problem, Vendors Will Be Expected To Tell The


"Look, I'm telling you it's a bad thing if Y2K" ends up causing widespread
economic disruptions, says Abrams, a former staffer for Vice President Al
Gore. "What we really want is the channel to promote Y2K among small and
midsize businesses, and local government and nonprofits, because this is the
segment that has been generally slow on the Y2K uptake."


(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:52 - ID#229207)
Opinion shifting toward the Fed leaving rates alone next week
"The Goldman Sachs chief economist noted U.S. equities have turned bubbly again recently while the economy appears to have stabilized, reasons for the Fed to keep policy on hold next week."

Of course, Kitco posters and lurkers saw that already.

If you haven't already voted on the chances of a rate change...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:52 - ID#269409)
Ignoble metals... oversupply
Hopefully the trend below will result in a production cutback in major copper, zinc, etc mines, thus reducing silver production ( it being a major buy product of copper production )

Monday November 9, 3:18 pm Eastern Time

Stock surplus to pressure '99 LME metals -Billiton

LONDON, Nov 9 ( Reuters ) - A build-up in surplus stock will exert pressure on London Metal Exchange
( LME ) metal prices in 1999 unless producers trim output, Billiton Metals Ltd said in a report on Monday.

The extent of that pressure will depend largely on whether strength in European and U.S. markets can
continue to counterbalance weakness in their Asian counterparts, the report said.

``Copper prices are likely to remain depressed for a prolonged period if production fails to respond more quickly,'' Billiton analysts Angus
MacMillan and Karen Norton wrote in the brokerage's last-ever weekly report.

Billiton Metals ceased trading at the end of October after fellow LME ring dealer German industrial group Metallgesellschaft ( quote from Yahoo!
UK & Ireland: METG.F ) ( MG ) acquired Billton Plc's trading arm.

In the report the analysts said that surplus aluminium stocks were also expected to swell even if major U.S. producer Alcoa kept its idled
capacity mothballed.

They forecast Western production will balloon next year.

``In the absence of some pretty dramatic unforeseen developments, Western stocks will continue to accumulate and prices will remain under
pressure,'' they said.

Zinc prices were also expected to come under pressure and struggle to improve on 1998's levels while the rest of the complex remained
burdened with slack demand, they added.

Lead was also expected to suffer from increased stocks, while weakness in the stainless steel industry was seen resulting in surplus output both
this year and next.

A rise in Chinese exports was seen weighing on nickel prices and offsetting any support derived from lower output out of Malaysia, Brazil and
Indonesia, the report said.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 15:54 - ID#28994)
Goldilocks 15.32 Re Idiots
Read Sharfin Nov. 8 7.29
Y2k has turned this dude into one fancy Space Cadet.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:02 - ID#242214)
Ok... Good thank you!
Date: Mon Nov 09 1998 15:51
GIBBOUS ( @OLIVER--The plan is we all meet at the Club Super Sex, on St.Catherines, across from Eatons. OUI. ) ID#432395:

I will be there....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:03 - ID#259323)
@ frustrated
I own a bunch of RANGY. What was the split imformation?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:08 - ID#269409)
@ Apex Silver Mines ( SIL )
Does anyone own, or have an opinion about, the ( dare I say the name ) George Soros partially funded venture, APEX Silver mines? ( SIL ) . I noticed that their loss per share is drastically narrowing each quarter and may go black final quarter 98, or early 99 at if present trend continues.

They seem to be doing a good job of exploration, but better mining opriented minds than mine might be able to better analyze their potential in the event of a rise. Reverse head and shoulders trend on their chart..and they seem to be showing strength.

"Big money" backing this venture.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:11 - ID#339274)
FWIW Making a nice jump on heavy volume.Anyone having info.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:12 - ID#242214)
Well perhaps we should not worry so much for Y2K
Speaking at a Year 2000 Forum in Oregon late last week, Senator
Smith ( R-Ore. ) let fly some serious warnings about Y2K. According
to this Oregonian story, Smith said, "...individuals should
consider preparing for power failures and computer glitches by
storing away food or cash or making backup copies of financial
data in case bank records get wiped out."


(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:14 - ID#433172)
Thanks for the news on freedom of speech. The earlier post was very alarming, as was the one about Sam's warehouse. People should be careful what they post here since oftentimes here is where the news comes out first and false stuff might be belived. Hating Clinton is one thing, BS is another.

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:16 - ID#270253)
This stock has gone from 20 to 30 cents up to $3.00 to $4.00 on several occasions. Go to and try the Canadian section with a monthly chart.

They have exploration agreements with Barrick that are substantial, but have been ignored. I think Yahoo finance has them on file ( ) . ( Brag time..I got mine for 22 cents, but only a few thousand shares as a spec )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:19 - ID#176200)
@Allen(USA) If it really gets bad...
We could even have CW ( morse code ) round table's. It worked in Independence Day to defeat the Aliens! The gummit is too stupid to
decrypt it! :- ) --... ...--

Regards O.L.

Not Speaking for my employer.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:20 - ID#266105)

Here's a link to some recent bull on Apex:

I've had a small position in Apex since earlier this year
and follow the story. Longer term hold/silver play is its
place for my purposes.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:20 - ID#246224)
note this
Abrams turns heads by offering what some insiders believe to be one of the most forceful challenges ever posed to the channel from the federal government.

"Look, I'm telling you it's a bad thing if Y2K" ends up causing widespread economic disruptions, says Abrams, a former staffer for Vice President Al Gore. "What we really want is the channel to promote Y2K among small and midsize businesses, and local government and nonprofits, because this is the segment that has been generally slow on the Y2K uptake."

Hald, who sits alert and quiet, asks: "What looks bad?"

"Energy companies, oil tankers and port facilities," Abrams responds. "It's gloomy news. Traffic will not move."

While one study anticipates the worldwide cost for fixing Y2K will exceed $600 billion, that doesn't take into account the possibility for social, political and economic consequences of a widespread "Y2K meltdown," Abrams says.

The process favored by the White House is the Y2K Council's 35th Sector Working Group. It's a bundle of industry and nonprofit private sector entities whose knowledge of IT will help guide the government's management of Y2K transition, as well as crisis management in the event of failures.

Already Abrams' group has compiled a database containing the names of more than 300,000 IT technicians, mostly military and government retirees who worked in computer sciences. The 35th Sector in coming weeks will ask for volunteers from the channel to identify themselves, should their skills be needed in the event of a national Y2K collapse.

"Sounds like air raids and bomb shelters," Hald quips. "Are we talking about triage, possible allocation of IT by congress?"

"We're not discussing triage or allocating IT," Abrams says. "But if the traffic lights in your hometown stop working, isn't there a way your members can help the mayor and local government? No one expects individual IT members to pull out pliers and fix the thing. We're looking for the channel to help lead a terrific array of partnerships we're building across government and industries."

Hald agrees, telling the group that because the government's Y2K program spans the nation and all industries, this is a chance for IT to take a leadership role.

When Abrams finishes her talk, Hald steers discussion to pick over her request to join the 35th Sector. The committee quickly recommends that CompTIA join the new government body.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:20 - ID#227290)
Apex Silver

I have looked at Apex Silver in the past. Its main deposit is mostly a zinc deposit with silver as a by-product. Silver needs to reach at least $8.00 before the primary income from the ore -- on paper -- would come from silver. I say -- on paper -- because zinc concentrates are severely market down from the market price before the miner is paid for them.

My understanding is that if the smelter produces $100 of zinc, the miner only receives about $60 for it. This would make Apex Silver's main deposit much less valuable than it appears on paper.

The Preacher

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:21 - ID#270253)
RANGY fans(Frustrated)
I had 10,000 RANGY shares on Friday. How many RANYD shares do I have today? My broker can't tell me. I told her that I would likely find out here. The Bank of New York ADR guy indicated 10,000, but with new rights of conversion into Randgold Resources. I don't believe his numbers ( as per John Disney's comments ) . Randgold Resources is supposed to list on Nasdaq.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:24 - ID#242214)
Yes EVERYTHING will be OK madame La MARQUISE!
Certainly some large companies are making positive noises about their own Y2K efforts. Unfortunately, most of what is publicly said is still naively simplistic and optimistic: "We plan to finish our remediation rts by December 1998 in order to leave a year for testing." ( David O'Daniel Eddy, Night Hike
October 21, 1998 )

WHAT do we have here for Kitco CONTINGENCIES?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:25 - ID#246224)
You are much more sober than I thought you were. Nice catches there. The articles are very much appreciated. Particularly the comments, which show some of the knowledge of the inner, upper circles. Please keep up the flow of information. And THANKS!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:28 - ID#431200)
Randy and Rangy
What is the correct split,1 for 3 or 7 for 10? Thanks

Contrary indicator
(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:44 - ID#343185)
Posting on "Licensing of speech"
This is a fairly old parody of gun control bills. Substitute "guns" for "speech" and that will be quite obvious. The parallels are fairly obvious as well.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:46 - ID#343171)
pulled off SI:

I am typing this off a faxed copy. I hope this is correct, if it is not, I apologize for any
inconvenience that this may have caused.

Randgold & Exp Co LTD
S  7  for  10 reverse stock split eff O/B 11/09/98
( END ) DOW JONES NEWS 11  09  98
O8: 16 am

Lan Man
(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:53 - ID#320108)
@Rangold info from Schwab


(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:55 - ID#266105)

If it's 10 for 7 I calculate a 56% gain from Friday's close.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 16:57 - ID#344326)
@ the RANGY mess.....
I have come to the conclusion that owning shares of RANGY or contemplating the future of RANGY is a right-of-passage for Kitcoites.

Now that we know it is a 10 for 7 reverse stock-split, perhaps some well-informed and clear-headed Kitcoite can make an informative post about options to convert shares of Randgold & Exploration ( RANYD, formerly RANGY ) into Randgold Resources. Do not ask me as every time I try to figure it out, I feel as if I am inside a painting by Escher.

I can't wait to see STUDIO.R's post about the new developements. Good ole RangitO.....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:02 - ID#242214)
Yes I am more sober!
Thank you Allen ( USA ) to force me up!
Here I am not trying to proof anything except what we should try.......
to save our forum and stay online against all odds.
Please excuse my english I try my best.
But if we are the withness of the closure on the SETI...even if it is a hoax...make you wonder...!!!How long it will take to see a blank page when you try to reach KITCO for your NEXT HIT.
We should find a way to ressusitate even if WE GO DOWN...!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:03 - ID#242214)
Yes I am more sober!
Thank you Allen ( USA ) to force me up!
Here I am not trying to proof anything except what we should try.......
to save our forum and stay online against all odds.
Please excuse my english I try my best.
But if we are the withness of the closure on the SETI...even if it is a hoax...make you wonder...!!!How long it will take to see a blank page when you try to reach KITCO for your NEXT HIT.
We should find a way to ressusitate even if WE GO DOWN...!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:03 - ID#344326)
former post should read...
7 for 10. HELP! I've fallen into an Escher painting, and I can't get out!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:05 - ID#343171)
but... if it is a 1 for 3 we got our chickens choked for a 20% loss today; total lack of any real news!! It must be a 1 for 3 'cause I
haven't had a 56% daily gain since before Moses was horny.

Gold Dancer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:10 - ID#377196)
My Morgsan Stanley broker says it is 7 for 10 reverse. Someone
posted on silicon site that his Schwab account showed 1/3rd of his
shares was gone. This was a lie. Nothing was done to my girl friends
Schwab account or my MS/DW account.
There are so many lies out there it is difficult to get the right
info from the net. If you are one of them please leave now!

Opinions are one thing, but to outright lie is another.

It is very interesting to me that someone posted that DROOY said
something important was going to be announced. I have always thought
that DROOY and RANGY would merge. THis morning on Polarbears site
he mentioned that Kebble, when asked whether DROOY and Rangy would merge
said NO. Then he added that there was a culture difference between the
companies and they wouldn't match up well. Then I knew the merger was
on. Kebble runs both companies what does he mean a culture difference?

That of course is not official. It may not happen. But Rangy had to
get up to value if it was going to merge with DROOY. The gap is closing
but I think there is more to come. At this gold price, Rangy is worth
more than DROOY in my opinion. Or pretty darn close. We will see, but
I sense a deal in the making soon. ( I don't expect an even trade )


thanks, GD

Mike Stewart
(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:11 - ID#270253)
I think that it is 1 for 3, and as Canadians say, we just got hosed.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:14 - ID#343171)
Randgold to appoint Art Bell as investor relations VP

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:15 - ID#266105)

Maybe Kebble had dancing girls at the NY roadshow...lotsa

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:19 - ID#339274)
Mike Stewart
I have picked up a few blocks when they were a little higher .32,last
month.The stock is an excellent seasonal player and has the capacity to
quadruple in a matter of three month.Looking at the volume ,news is in the offing that could make the stock sparkle.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:20 - ID#183109)
RANDGOLD PR department, or lack there of....
Kitcovites, PLEASE LET MS. KATHY DU PLESSIS know how pleased you are with the great job RANDGOLD has been doing to keep us all informed. HA!!!


KATHY DU PLESSIS AT TELEPHONE ( 2711 ) 728-4701, TELEFAX ( 2711 ) 728-2547



And for the record, didn't buy or sell any shares today. The assets are all still there. I'm still bullish, and am hopeful that some good will come from all this confusion. Judging by all the hostile emails in my inbox, this is worth repeating...I'm a shareholder...I don't work for rangy, and unfortunately don't get info any better than the rest. Hopefully this will change!



(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:23 - ID#242214)
Tout va tres bien Madame la Marquise!
Everythings is doing very well madame la marquise.
Well....the fire came from the horse place ( asia ) ..and went to the hangars place... ( Plus Russia ) and now we fear that the Castle is burning out of control....!

What do I do with my 57 Calls on ABX at 2.70?

Call KITCO!?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:24 - ID#183109)
MY OWN SHARE COUNT of RANGY looks like 10 for 7...
I've been so busy with my website and have done so much rangy buying lately, I'm not sure ( until I check all my records ) how many shares I started with, but on closer review, it looks like my shares were treated as though we had a 10 for 7 reverse split, as there are now about 70% of my share count listed in my account.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:24 - ID#263456)

I believe it was a 1 for 3...cause it opened at 13/16 times 3 or 39/16 or 2 7/16 ..That's a 1 for 3 ... we got hosed big time...

Following from USAGOLD site...

Arizona Hiker ( 11/9/98; 14:20:44MDT - Msg ID:942 )
RANGY reverse split
at first, this morning, we were notified that RANGY went through a 7 for 10 reverse split. I checked with the Schwab re-org dept. and they advise that the transfer agent for RANGY forwarded erroneous information. The information will be corrected to reflect a 1 for 3 reverse split.
the new symbol is RANYD. With the security trading at about 1 7/8, it appears to be down about 30%. To illustrate: last week, 1000 shares @ .875 = $875.
today, 1000/3 = 333.33 shares @ 1.875 = 624.99. a loss of $250.01, or 28.5%
because the company did not provide shareholders with advance notice regarding this reverse split, confusion reigned supreme this morning. Much MISinformation has been posted on various gold-bug sites.
CEO Mr. Kebble is supposedly conducting a dog and pony show this week in the U.S.... perhaps someone can ask him why we weren't provided with advance notice and why they decided up on a reverse split in the first place.
The company needs to make a public clarification so that the shares can begin trading once again with some relationship to NAV.




(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:26 - ID#344326)
@ the belly laughs compliments of RANGY...
Maybe we can take this RANGY act on the road...Maybe follow Kebble's tour.....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:28 - ID#343171)
dreamin rangy;
how about a 3 for 1 ordinary split, and we're up 600% from fridays close?
I've gotta get more O to my brain.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:29 - ID#288186)
COMEX METAL WAREHOUSE TOTALS...(silver down 500k!)

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Nov. 9

Gold 836,648 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 73,999,894 - 500,750 troy ounces
Copper 69,515 - 500 short tons

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:30 - ID#254321)
Gold Trends, anyone?
All: The US dollar is steadily climbing back up to 100, and gold equities have been dropping the last two days. Fortunately the commodity price index ( cry0 ) has been steady. A drop back to or below 200 would be catastrophic.

My intuitive guess is the AG will keep interest rates constant, now that the markets have recovered a bit. Perhaps he will wait for european rates to drop some more before acting again. I do not know what to think about the negative effective interest rates in Japan -- when the Japanese have to pay people to take Japanese Yen, that is certainly not a good sign -- it does not look like the Japanese banks have reached bottom yet. There is a mountain of distrust they have to overcome before Japan can rise out of their depression.

Short/intermediate term Gold stock trend:

I cannot decide whether we are inching toward the brink yet again -- or we are about to rally once more. What I fear is another financial meltdown, site of origin unknown. My guess is that the short/intermediate term in gold stocks is up -- but I have no intention of getting caught in yet another gold Tsunami surfer wipeout.

Comments, anyone?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:30 - ID#183109)
RANGY P.R. email address....
Don't be shy gang, lets see if we can flood the email account in appreciation : )

Hopefully one of these links will work, or you may have to type it into the "to" box of your email program manually.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:31 - ID#253153)
Deflation is accelerating--- The bear has been able to fool many people
With the Dow recouping 80% of it's previous losses, many people have assumed that the bull is back and they bought common stocks.. Guess what ? The bear is still with us. Reality has yet to sink into investors minds that we are in a bear market. This bear market can't be worked off by any means. It will run to conclusions just as deflation will and investors will suffer tremendous losses. Recently we had a corrective move in interest rates which have risen a bit. This is to be expected. No market goes up or down in a straight line. I'll reafirm my belief that interest rates will continue to sink, equities and commodities will also decline and gold will rise. There are very few serious investors left. Majority of investors have become outright speculators seeking daily monetary rewards and neglecting basic fundamentals. I'm back in the US after a wonderfull vacation.

Dave in CO
(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:35 - ID#229141)
"Date: Mon Nov 09 1998 15:54
skinny ( Goldilocks 15.32 Re Idiots ) ID#28994:
Read Sharfin Nov. 8 7.29
Y2k has turned this dude into one fancy Space Cadet"

What is your background and what is your evidence to justify attacks like this? The only thing I've read from you is a very simplistic statement that Y2K is over-hyped crap. That's like saying "it can't happen here." You must have more to contribute than that. Sharefin has posted a lot of information to support his views. Even though I spent 30+ years in the business, I'm here to learn. Thanks.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:36 - ID#26793)
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.43. The 233 day moving average is 28.95

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:38 - ID#26793)
XAU/Spot Ratio = .270. The 233 day moving average is .248

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:41 - ID#242214)
She Testifies...she cannot!or Can OUT!
FEMA Official Cannot Imagine a Y2K Crisis.

Charles Keeling
(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:42 - ID#344225)
@ The Scene RE: RANGY
I have one account with on line access called
E-Trade. I did have 1000 shares of Rangy.
Now I hae 700. It shows NO PRICE. But it
shows a cost of 1 1/4. I bought at .8750,
so that cant be the actual cost.

Looks like tomorrow the price for my 700 shares
will be carried at 1 1/4.

As I understand, Rangy stood to be delisted since
it was below 1.00. This split will keep it from
being delisted. Just guessing, and filling in
the blanks.


Bully Beef
(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:49 - ID#259282)
Mozel ...while allowing your point that no one fought for genocide
most Canadian troops enlisted for WW2. Conscription only came towards the end of the war.Canadian troops were generally shock troops. Colonists don't you know.Americans only came into the war at the end.This was after making a lot of money off of it and watching the English tap themselves out for decades. This is not to diminish the effort of US men and women. It is just to say that if they had entered the war earlier many innocent people would have survived.Fighting white races has always been difficult for Americans. Fighting the Japanese,Latin Americans,Native Americans or the Vietnamese is different.
Mozel... I may be silly and I may even put my own spin on things...but I don't understand your spin on anything. I don't understand your motives.I don't think you are honest.I think you live in isolation and because of that your ideas are distorted and mean spirited. You often speak as though the Constitution was handed to Americans by GOD and not by slave owners. While I respect the CONSTITUTION as one of the most famous and important documents in history I don't rever it.I'm not American.
Undisciplined intelligence is very sad.Why not come down off the soap box and speak to us instead of over us?Maybe this is just some cultural difference that I just don't get. At any rate have a nice day and I hope the sun shines on you wherever you may be.
Yours truly Pollyanna.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:52 - ID#254321)
JP: One fly in your ointment. Deflation is likely to descend on us in fits -- like Oct 97. At other times gold and gold stocks will do well -- but we must be nimble so that we do not get caught by the breaking waves. Any idea which way the gold bug Tsunami surfer should be looking?

I find it interesting that we are told how good automobile sales are in the US -- but in Brazil they are off 40%. How can GM,Ford, Chrysler etc. have it so good when so much of their income comes from South America?

Any thoughts about the IMF and the Brazil bailout? And what is Mexico going to do with the 60 billion they owe that they supposedly paid back in 1995?

Also, we hear about how much Mainland China's foreign trade surplus is, and how asutute their leaders are. I do not worry about the private Chinese businessmen, because they are some of the best businesspeople in the world. But -- when the Chinese government gives out loans without any review of risk to the lender ( foreign money I guess ) -- I worry. Am I getting paranoid if I imagine warehouses of goods in mainland China yet to be sold -- products made far in excess of what the actual world demand is -- to be sold to the tune of 10 cents on the dollar?

My guess is that there will be a time when mainland China's trade surplus no longer is there to cover their inefficiencies, and foreign investors suddenly find themselves holding nothing. Hard to tell how long it will take before China defaults on their foreign loans.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 17:54 - ID#347457)
@Oliver on conspiracy to stop Y2K discussion on Kitco?
Oliver, I would not worried about it. Y2K is been discussed on a lot of open forums and many times in much more critical tone than on Kitco.

You have conferences and seminars around the country ( many of them sponsored by government ) , a bunch of internet forums, and the flow of information is very open, critical way, and to the point. Turn on radio to business channel and twice a week you have Y2K forum with Tony Keys - never too timid toward government progress. Maybe I am just too optimistic and used to discuss these issues openly with colleagues, government agencies, or people supporting activities on the Hill.

Nobody ever tried to stop or restrict the discussion.

BTW, Government just published "Year 2000 and You" brochure. It was announced nationwide in the October 4, 1998, edition of Parade Magazine and is available from GSA's Consumer Information Center ( CIC ) .

The brochure is also available from the CIC by downloading on the internet.
Just go to, click on MISCELLANEOUS, and on the
lower right side of the next page see the brochure available in two different versions, including a representation or the actual size page brochure in Adobe.pdf.format.

I am enclosing some statements from it:

"this could make computer systems
either shut down or generate incorrect data.
Disruption to the workplace, the services we receive
and the equipment we use could occur because some
computer systems use dates when processing data.
Computer systems in Federal agencies, banking and
financial institutions, public health, transportation,
telecommunications, electric power generation systems,
among others, might stop working or continue
working while producing inaccurate information."


"Will It Affect Me?
Yes, we all rely upon computer systems and
microchips both for simple and complex tasks in our
daily lives: ATM machines, bank transactions, Social
Security checks, telephone calls, electricity, household
appliances, hospital equipment, and various forms of
transportation. Even fire engines have computer
chips that help keep them running. "
"citizens should find out more about Y2K, so they too can help their communities achieve readiness.
First, tune into the Y2K web sites on the Internet if you
have access to a computer. If you don't, you can visit
your local library for assistance. Start with the web
addresses listed in this brochure. From these sites
you will find links to many more useful Year 2000 web
sites. Your local library can also provide you with articles
and publications about the problem.
Second, make sure your local community is aware
and doing everything it can to be prepared. Many
local organizations will need volunteers to help get the
word out."

Does this look like a conspiracy to hide the information? I am not trying to defend the government, however, there is just too much "conspiracy theories" on this site.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:00 - ID#45173)
Poll checkers
In the past few days, 71 Kitco types have voted their guess at interest rates after the upcoming Fed meeting. Meanwhile, the poll page has taken 279 hits. Each voter has on average checked the status of the poll four times.

Let's face it. If the Fed raises rates after AG and Fed gov's have made the point that the emergency is over that inspired that last rate increase, then we're left to conclude that the Fed really is in the business of supporting the stock market, public protestations ( "Fed policy will not be hostage to the equities markets" ) aside.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:02 - ID#343171)
more randgold angst:
RANYD quoted on CBSmarketwatch shows previous ie fridays close at
2.7/16, todays high 2, off 1/2; so they have back calculated using a 1 for 3 rev split: 2.43/3 = .81 which was fridays close, pre-split.
bottom line we did get hosed for a 20% loss mostly due to lack of communication; confusion begets valuation anomalies.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:04 - ID#290456)

If the RANGY reverse split is 1 for 3, somebody needs their head examined for picking this ratio.....untold numbers of odd lot shares will be created by such a split.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:04 - ID#31868)
the lights are on but nobody is free speech you folks that complained
read the posts through the day or what...if you had it was CLEARLY a joke and in addition it was on yesterday or Saturday and it was revealed to be a hoax/gag/ addition do you not think this would be the HEADLINE on every media outlet on the planet...

c' have some ammonia poppers to help ya otta the daze you are in if you need them...yup...uh huh...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:07 - ID#343171)
site for randgold, todays highs/lows reflecting split:

maybe the split should have been 1 for pi ( 3.14159265 )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:07 - ID#347457)
@Bully Beef and Mozel on conscription to fight in WWII
Mozel, what you say may be true for the US, however, it was different in other countries. There are many men from Czech ( including members of my family ) who risked their lives to cross the borders in order to join English arm forces to fight Germany. The same was true for Poland, and other countries. In addition, nobody forced people throughout the Europe to hide or help Jews, or to join underground movement against Germany. Members of my family were executed for this fighting against genocide on their free will.

Please, speak just about facts you know.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:07 - ID#344326)
@ Bully Beef....
Mozel's posts have always eluded me on the specifics, as his knowledge of history and law is ominous. But I always come away with the same sense, namely that our rights and freedoms have been slowly taken away from us without most of us realizing it. He has taken on a heavy burden by directing his mind to that end, a burden that most could not handle. He may and most likely, IMHO, has an incedible amount of rage at what has happened. He finds a willing and attentive audience here at Kitco. Here, at least, many can at least temporarily and in a small way, share his burden as we read his posts and are enlightened. And we all benefit. I have no idea if that helps you or not, but that is how I see it.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:09 - ID#26793)
Chinese worker protests are growing; 600 workers surround cement plant for 5 days

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:09 - ID#31868)
Boy o Boy...this RANGY thing has got to be the most bruised item in mining shares
today...oh made for good filler today I's's''s Rangy Python's Flying Circus...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:09 - ID#258273)
Apex is one of my core holdings. Picked it up last January or so at IPO price about 11. I picked it up simply because of the owners. Soros, Rothchild & Company. All the while Soros has been posturing for a one world financial system, he has been buying up lot of in ground silver through Apex. He slipped once about a year and a half ago and mentioned that he was afraid of a global meltdown in the financial system that would only leave silver coin as a viable medium of exchange. Wish I could remenber the reference. This reference also indicated that 70% of the world's in ground reserves were controlled by Apex??? I could not verify this, but I needed a good silver company in my portfolio, and the old world merchant bankers seen to have a keen interest in Apex.

Then Warren Buffet announced his accumulation of physical. Imagine the potential squeeze if both above ground and below ground reserves are controlled by a small group. Together with the ( albeit remote ) possibility of a Yen currency block with silver in the mix ( does Soros see this? ) , I see a potential upside spike at some unpredictable point in the next year or so. In the meantime, Apex looks very healthy for the long haul. I expect a 4x over 2 years for a trend line ( with lots of volatility ) . IMHO, of course.

Tantalus Rex
(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:15 - ID#295111)
Chinese shifting their policy on Gold
I plucked this out of another site.....

Since 1949 when Communists seized power, Chinese citizens were not allowed to own/possess GOLD, any kind of. But from time to time, they were allowed to own/possess GOLD jewelry, especially after the Great Cultural Revolution ( 1976 ) . But they are never allowd to own/possess/TRADE GOLD nuggets, period.

Recently, a Chinese newspaper reported yesterday that the Chines gov. is considering OPEN nuggets market and allow/praise Chinese citizens own/possess GOLD nuggets. It didn't say anything about TRADE, although some experts believe that's inevitable.

As my understanding, Gold jewelry is much more expensive than GOLD nuggets. Many, many Chinese buy Gold jewelry really for GOLD sake, not for jewelry.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:16 - ID#254321)
FEMA in the dark - no surprise
Oliver: It does not surprise me that FEMA's own have no idea what could happen with y2k. And they are supposed to bail us out during an emergency. Small emergencies only -- one hurricane. I wonder -- how much of FEMA is y2k compliant?

So we do not have to worry about FEMA taking over control of the US economy, do we? Our own Social Security is far more enlightened then they are about y2k.

And even the IRS may be catching on -- an emergency flat tax -- just in case. Easier for enforce if the system breaks. But wait a minute -- what about those mortgage deductions?

I find it amusing that our goverment seem to think they can step in and take over all economic functions if we have a meltdown due to y2k. I think they will be in for a big surprise, since it seems that the federal government is the worst prepared of all. My guess is that the state governments will fair better handling the y2k crisis. It will be easier for them to seek local support from the people who make this economy run.

Y2k is likely to go a long way in making it clear to everyone that the Federal Government is ossified. Just the opposite of what you might think. After we have y2k we may find our respective governments less centralized -- not more. Remember what is happening to Japan -- most of it due to their centralized, planned economy. Our chaotic one works much better.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:20 - ID#258273)
Reverse splits
Just got my brokerage statement. AMDD reverse split 20 for 1. Not a good thing. Was a James Davidson recommendation a year ago. Figured it was safe once it was down 95%. It is now down another 85%. Then my Rangold annual report arrived... Awfully fancy for a little company... Lots and lots of footnotes... dilution... Only gold dog in my portfolio... another reverse split...

Now what towns are these guys planning to visit?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:25 - ID#348127)
Had to run off this morning and was shocked to return 6 hours later to see that rangy was still not cleared up. Bottom line to me was a 10 for 7 split. I didn't think 2 bucks a share would hold this morning so I sold. I was thinking it could come back to 1.25. Well it came down a little but rebounded to close near2. My thinking now is that a lot of folks saw it on the big mover list and took a shot befor researching. I still think 1.25 is in the cards if we dont have some movement in POG. Atleast thats the price I am looking for to pick it up again.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:29 - ID#224363)
@BigFisherman - Apex Silver
I was also initially attracted to it by the Soros connection. Have patiently watched it do very little ( + and - $2 to $3 ) and have been quite happy with that.

They appear to be building a mine ( or series of mines ) and the news and progress is slow, steady and moving in the right direction.

I'm actually considering a few more shares.

PS. Also own a small chunk of FSR ( TSE ) .Lot more volatile but a real producer with 2-3 million oz per year. This is the one that will give you a quick 100% increase with $6.50 silver.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:32 - ID#45173)
Wow. This Brazil deal is not going well.
``Things are moving well, but we know that it won't be possible to conclude the letter of intent today,'' one official said. The letter would spell out the country's policy commitments in exchange for the loans.

Letter of Intent? I though they'd have that done weeks ago. These guys are a long way off from a deal. Looks like the Brazillians are playing hard ball. The IMF prepared the American taxpayer for their next reaming with the "too big to fail" story about Brazil, in the process telling Brazil that they're holding all the cards.

My guess is that the IMF is trying to get Brazil to promise no Real devaluation for the next year or so, and Brazil is saying, "balls!" because a Real devaluation promise is how they got the austerity measures through congress.

No, this is not a done deal.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:32 - ID#269409)
@ Bully Beef...WW2
Bully re your 17:02. Amen and kudo's. In addition to your comments, might I add that a hefty percentage of U.S. servicemen were volunteer's in WW2.

Additionally, I think it's a horrific insult to the men who fought. When we review the death, maiming, and sacrifices that these men made, suggest that they were unwitting "pawns" involved in a useless war. Absurd and offensive in the extreme!

They were indeed, hero's who saved the Western world from Axis tyranny through the only means possible at the time. We owe an EXTREME debt of gratitude to these men...... we do NOT owe them the condescending crap that Mozel dishes out with his WAY over the edge, rabid anti everything rhetoric.

If one is going to make the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and personal freedom the be all and end all Gold of all might want to go back and review the authors of same for their "intent" a bit more closely. They would roll over in their graves if they read Mozel's stuff.

Jefferson might be a good starting point.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:34 - ID#286224)
RE: Teh Kibbles & Bits road show - will it make any difference to RANYD ??
Are there people here with experince of the kind of boosterism Kebbles is undertaking in his American Road Show?

Could it move the price?

Any guesses?


(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:36 - ID#286224)
Can/will "insiders" keep the price up until the management roadshow is over?


(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:38 - ID#269409)
Gold, Silver consumption rising, India/Asia
Commentary from that part of the world...

Precious metals fall across the board
..........NEW YORK ( November 8 ) : Gold, silver and platinum and palladium prices all ended marginally lower in New York
Friday on light volumes after good gains in the past two days.
.........."Gold and silver still both look OK, with silver closing above $5.00 again, but I wouldn't want to be too bullish on
either metal," said Scott Meyers, an analyst with Pioneer Futures in New York.
..........Comex December gold ended down 80 cents at $294.00 an ounce, after trading a $295.50-292.90 range, inside
Thursday's price range. Total Comex gold volume was estimated at a moderate 40,000 lots.
..........In the bullion market spot gold ended quoted $292.80/30 an ounce, compared to the London Friday afternoon fix at
$293.30 and the New York close Thursday at $293.70/20.
..........In the past two months gold prices have recovered from a 19 year low around $270.75 an ounce.
..........Demand for gold in Japan triggered by last month's fall in the dollar/yen rate was surprisingly strong, traders said
..........During a four-day period in October the dollar fell 18 percent against the yen, dipping to 111.50 yen.
..........Sales of gold investment products in Japan in October were about 10 to 15 tonnes compared with 7 to 8 tonnes in
September, according to the World Gold Council.
..........Elsewhere, news that Mongolia's central bank has bought more than seven tonnes of gold so far in 1998 was
encouraging for gold, especially after Canada's central bank said it had sold 68,000 ounces of gold, one trader said.
..........Comex December silver ended down 3.5 cent at $5.010 an ounce, after pushing up to the week's high at $5.085
..........Total Comex silver volume was estimated at only 8,000 lots. In the bullion market, spot silver ended quoted
$5.01/04 an ounce, compared to the London Friday fix at $5.0350 and the New York close Thursday around $5.03/06.
..........Silver prices have recovered from a 12 month low at $4.62 an ounce in September, helped by higher seasonal
Indian demand.
..........Nymex January platinum lost $4.80 to end at $341.50 an ounce, while Nymex December palladium closed down
$3.40 at $272.25.
.........."Funds are still short in platinum and the same investment bank that has been buying gold this week is selling
platinum, so a further test of the downside looks likely," said Ralph D'Esposito, a Comex floor trader with RJ Futures.
..........Platinum prices have been recovering this week from their lowest levels in seven years seen last week.
..........Platinum prices had been pressured by ample supplies from South Africa and Russia.
..........Russia is expected to sell PGMs heavily on the spot market as it did in December last year, before the
government's 1998 export quota for the metals expires at the end of this year, traders said.--Reuters

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:41 - ID#343171)
mapleman (RE:RANGY)
sorry but we need $2.43 to get back to where we were friday, thats
assuming a 1 for 3 rev split, which is the indication at this point.
It is tough enough owning gold shares these days without getting your teeth kicked in by inept management. I'll be bailing soon jsut because they are so annoying.

EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:42 - ID#226287)
RANYD..... Public relations stroke of genious !!
Before every RANYD ( RANGY ) shareholder shoots flaming arrows
at Roger Kebble better rethink your position. Confusion or not, where
are you now compared to Friday?
Let's apply one of the few practical lesssons from American politics:

When you are an underdog with little name recognition,

So it is with RANGY. Solid conglomeration of assets and major production on the fast track, it languished in a sea of PM equities.
Pitiful volume and stuck in a narrow trading range, it was the darling
of but a few hardcore "Kitcoites". Louder and louder, the shouts rang out from shareholders; promotion!, promotion! Well, we finally get what we have been screaming for. The Kebble roadshow is about to begin.
But wait, how could they do this to us? Reorganize without our blessing.
How dare they do this without weeks or months of prior warning! Well,
we didn't even have time to pick it apart!

Exactly.... What timing just before the promotion tour. I read this forum
almost every day; When is the last time you saw so much stirr about
RANYD ( RANGY ) ? There have been more comments today than the
last two months put togeather. Believe me, others outside our little
circle will notice too. Just in time to join the party.

Count your blessings.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:44 - ID#219363)
Final Party
Has the music stopped, is the equity party over ? Most investors seem too dizzy to know, too drunk to care. Let's see what the next week or two bring us.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:45 - ID#269409)
@ EJ... Brazil and IMF
I remain baflled by the IMF's strategies. On one hand, the modern "Global" economist believes that recession/ deflation/ depression can be staved off through increased liquidity, consumption, and personal spending... which necessarily involves some relative flexibility in credit extension, and minimal taxation of income.

On the other hand, they tell each of these "bail out" plan countries that they have to.

* stop banks from lending
* raise taxes
* Impose austerity measures
* Refuse to devalue ( thus costing themselves jobs... )

Seems juts a mote contradictory.

I'm all for encouraging other countries to become more fiscally responsible, achieve corporate asset to debt ratios that are closer to what we have in the U.S. and Europe, stop lending to useless enterprizes, crack down on corruption, etc etc.

But it would seem they are basically going beyond this, and asking these third world emerging economies to bite the bullet for years, so that us Western types can remain fat dumb and happy...yes?

( My apologies to Kitco for posting out of character...gotta call em as I see em..... )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:50 - ID#343171)
EZ Believer: well at least your handle fits

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:54 - ID#269409)
@ Envy...Party over? Dollar? Tbills? Dow?
Re your question "Is the party over...?"

This qiestion has been asked in several form since 1981 or so. When the DOW was at LESS then 10% of where it is today.

More recently...we've seen 2 years of "All out crash" predictions fail here at Kitco... some based on Lunar events , some not.

Then we were hearing just a few weeks ago, from *FarfPuetz and others, that the collpase of the dollar and Treasuries had begun. ( Both up sharply today... in their continuing "collpase" )

Is the party over? Nope..... DOW 10,000 before Y2K.......World recovery in infancy stages at persent..... liquidity induced inflation ahead and commodity strength a few months away ( Gold & silver included o' course! )

PS...FED will cut in November... so it shall be written, so it shall be done....

Gold Dancer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:57 - ID#377196)
My brokers machine said the stock closed Friday at 1 3/16. This was
to reflect the 7 for 10 reverse split. Fridays close was .825 cents.
1 3/16 = 1.1875 times .7 =.83 cents. Stock closed at 1 15/16 up 3/4
on the day. The Dow Jones News service gives the same.

So until I hear otherwise that is what happened. Regardless of what
anyone said Schwab said. End of discussion. There is no confusion to


PS: my brokers information has always been correct. That
is why I use him. Maybe this will be the first time but I don't think
so. I think there are a lot of people on the net who give out false information thinking they will get some advantage somehow.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 18:58 - ID#45173)
This has not escaped the attention of Brazil's capitalist ruling elite. They observe the unsalubrious politial impact of IMF-imposed austerity measures in such places as Indonesia in the context of growing political support for the Left in neighboring Latin Am countries. They must calculate which carries more risk for them politically: driving their nation deaper into recession for a short-term bailout or dealing with the impact of further withdrawl of international capital. A Real devaluation and the imposition of capital controls may be more politically expedient. It's not a clear-cut decision.

Just as the West sees Brazil as The Buck Stops Here for globalism, so do emerging markets, who may rightly feel they've been getting the stinky end of the stick. Brazil may decide here and now that this is where the game rules change.

We shall see.

And we thought the world was getting boring again.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:03 - ID#242259)
Miro you are not convincing to me!
KITCO is at RISK more than others...............!!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:05 - ID#288230)

who read the wsj article stating 300 MILLION bbl
of crude seems to have either been mis-placed....
or was never reported when used.......

if she canna be found.....look out sugar and pl....
oil to the moon soon.......

how do you misplace 300kk bbl of nasty crude oil?
how indeed......

time for more calls......nasty green ink-stained cellulose
for nasty oooooooozing black gold........i'm sold.....


(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:07 - ID#210114)
IMF is full of it. They are driven by an ideological agenda. There solutions have in many cases compounded the problem.

I'll repost my 'Open Letter' or you.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:08 - ID#210114)
Open Letter to IMF

"Don't inflict your failure upon us."

Dear Mr Camdessus and IMF,

I read with great consternation and astonishment that you had recommended to the Australian government that it should adopt US style labour markets.

As an Australian I am appalled by the suggestion.

Firstly, why should ordinary people forgo their wages and conditions just so business and the wealthy can benefit?? It is hypocritical for people such as yourselves on 6 or 7 figure incomes to advocate wage cuts. Why aren't CEOs also expected to accept income reductions?

Secondly, wages cuts don't work. Its a false argument. Cutting wages cuts demand in the economy, which cuts employment.

Thirdly, cutting wages does not guarantee more job vacancies. A lot of businesses will add those cuts to the bottom line profit margin and say 'thank you very much'.

Finally, wages were cut in response to the 1930 Depression. It did not restore full employment. It was a miserable failure. The only time this century that we had full employment was when the economy was being run on Keynesian principles; not laissez faire. But this concept runs against the current economic mantra.

The free-market ideology which you are constantly advocating has not worked. It has not delivered. The ordinary mass of people are either unemployed, or in fear of being unemployed. But the elites have done very well thank you very much.

I do not want a US society in Australia. High poverty in the richest country in the world. 40 million Americans without health care. Highest rate of violent crime in the western world. Oh yes, and what would be the US unemployment rate if the million or so US citizens in jail were actually out there looking for work??

The IMF seems to think it has all the answers to the world's problems. These answers are always free market. Like religious zealots you advocate pain and misery now for an economic Nirvana in the future.

We have had 20 years of free market economics. Nirvana is nowhere to be seen. Your free market ideology has been a failure.

By your own admission, you made a disasterous situation in South East Asia last year catastrophic.

Don't inflict your failure upon us. Each country has to find its own version of capitalism which works best for it. Each country has its own economic, political and cultural differences and traditions. The radical free market was inflicted upon Russia, totally disregarding its traditions and now you have another basket case on your hands.

May you come to terms with a world that does not conform to your mythical free market model.

Gusto Oro
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:17 - ID#430260)
So tell me when in this century Russia wasn't a basket case?

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:18 - ID#348257)
shhhhh. the oil is my my basement.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:19 - ID#348257)
let's try that again...
shhhh. the oil is IN my basement.

there. that's bettew

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:19 - ID#288230)

i guess saddam insane and his game will not affect
poi either.....

he awaits our missles with is he
who pulls the strings on the western puppet meisters.....

as soon as we hit him.......he hits his targets...
israel and saudi.....and all hell breaks out...

before y2k or any balls....

sir mozel does carry the weight of the peopleo upon his shoulders....
it is heavier than any can imagine....i don't think he will cut off his
ear as a prominent artist did......but it has cut his heart....

the truth requires sacrifice....seeing the truth takes a heavy, heavy
toll......telling the truth, and defending it takes what is left.....


(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:21 - ID#288230)


EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:21 - ID#226287)
CoolJing .... Thankyou

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:22 - ID#119358)
@oh my leeeetle rangitO....come to me my bebeee,,,,,,
crazyOtimes......this is merely a strategy to motivate me to sell my shares!!!.....but IT IS ALL FOR NAUGHT!!! HA HA HA!!!!.....I can't sell my shareO's 'cause I don't know how many I own.....kebble is brilliant, duhHuH...I am dazed and cornfused.....BTW....I don't know squat ( as always! ) RUN RANGITOS!!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:22 - ID#210114)
Communism was a failure. Compared to the west it did not deliver. But compared to everything else this century, the mass of Russians were better of than in Tsarist times, and the current moment. That is why there has been a resurgance of Communism in Russia today.

Russia needed to move to a capitalist economy, but a capitalist economy which suited it; not the IMF.

But the IMF was determined to enforce a mythical free-market model which totally disregarded Russia traditions.

Each country has to come up with its own model of capitalism

Live Long and Prosper.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:28 - ID#284255)
Swing Chart Updated

It looks like the top is being set.
Now for the downhill ride.

How soon before the bears come out???

Dispute on a Wrinkle
U.S. is toast, too, even with remediation
Lets assume that our government and every other US organization held hands and
finished the job, including 100% successfull testing, one week from now.
We would be taken down by countries such as Russia who have stated publicly that
they "will not spend one ruble on Y2K because the budget is empty".

Russia's remaining remnants of industrial production will crash. The death
of a hundred million of them due to starvation, civil war, and disease
will finish them off as a viable nation.

Then there are cash-strapped countries like japan, that are so far behind in
GETTING STARTED that successfull remediation isn't even a social or economic
issue anymore. Too late means "too late". That means, for them, that they
have reached the point of no return. no matter what. Nothing can help them.
I back this claim with evidence from millions of hours of IT metrics in the
field of software work. The final nail in the coffin is their lack of financing.

Japan expects the U.S. to somehow help them out. Toast.

Expect a die-back of 20 million.

Not enough folks saw Y2K coming and allowed us to become hopelessly
dependent on other societies for our livelyhood.

Yep, the collapse of Asia's industrial production will take down U.S. high
tech production, a point I've been making for a long time.

I believe we should divert *all* Y2K remediation spending towards contengency
plans to save what we can. That means fixing systems that are mission
critical to implementing those contengency plans.

Too late. Fixing U.S. systems will be only part of the puzzle. What do
U.S. high tech companies do when their only suppliers for critical
componenets are in South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Japan?

( Replacements cannot be arranged, as these replacements would have to come
from entirely new industries and companies. For example, photomask plates
come from a few Japanese restart a U.S. industry would be
daunting. And it ain't happening. )

Looks like the U.S. is toast, too.

LMGLMAO ( Loading my guns, laughing my ass off )

Ping III is just around the corner of just over the horizon.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:28 - ID#343171)
EZ Believer
I hope that you are right, I also hope Gold Dancer is right
and we had a 7 for 10 split. I won't sell 'cause I know the
assets are real and management, while inept at communication
are seemingly great at the operations level. Maybe they can
hire ploarbear as the IR guy for the states.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:29 - ID#45173)
Gusto Oro
Shall I repost my Russian joke to answer your question for spock?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:30 - ID#34883)
Some updates on Communism

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:31 - ID#288186)
cherokee; You're right. The smell and stench of rotten lying b*stard's surround
the place of which you visit. I had recently been in Rockville
and could smell D.C. from there! As to your oil calls, sounds good
to me...I see that I can pick up a Jun99 1800 call for $250.
Or, to buy more time, a Dec99 1800 call for $470.

If you're thinking oil could hit the mid 20's by Dec'99, then
you could pick up Dec99 2200 calls for $100! Not bad! Hmmmmmmm.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:31 - ID#348257)
war, reverse splits, kick saves
cherokee: You HAVE been warning of war for a while now. Let us see....

As for the passion for Reverse Splits on the forum today - reverse splits are generally a sign of the last stages of a washout for a company or an industry. Most small mining and resource companies wind up severely diluted by the time a heavy downturn comes in to weed out the field. There is also a marketing and promotional tradition to keeping shares plentiful and "low-priced" so that a broad base of small investors is cultivated. This keeps control in current mangement's hands as far as offerings go, and insures fun and excitement for investors who enjoy owning tens of thousands of shares of stock, even if each share is going for a quarter or less. The hope springs eternal that the many penny shares will someday be worth dollars. Investing in peny stocks is generally very renumerative - for the issuers and promoters. However, there ARE ways to establish, monitor, and strategize positions in penny shares whereby huge gains can be made. It is a task requiring much study and attention.

In the end, if you believed in the company, and it survives to a reverse split, and through it, you still own the same amount of equity in it, and will experience the same percentage gains, or losses, as you would have holding many times more old shares worth a fraction each of the new. But that hope, that greed, that lust ( from which none of us are long exempt ) is happy only with mucho shares - even if they are each a smaller fraction of the total pie. Because one day....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:33 - ID#284255)
Derivatives - Paul Milne
" There are some who say that there are $140 trillion in face value of
derivatives outstanding in the world today and we agree. As you can see world
markets are a giant casino. The BIS says there are $82.6 trillion worth. That
is still twice the world's GDP, and five to six times the world's annual
productive product. Those are 1996 figures, so if usage grew 15% in 1997 that
figure would be $95 trillion, that they'll admit too. One-third of the 1996
figures or $27.7 trillion is held by 20 U. S. institutions. That is compared
to $12.1 trillion held by nine Japanese institutions, $10.5 trillion at eight
French banks, $9.2 trillion at eight English institutions, $7.5 trillion at
three Swiss banks and $6.6 trillion at seven German banks. The Japanese
government, in closing the Long-Term Credit Bank, is attempting to salvage
$350 billion in derivatives. If there is a chain reaction derivative
collapse, the U.S. may get hit first and hardest with some 30% of the total
or $40 trillion. Even the FDIC says, U.S. commercial banks have $26.7
trillion in off balance sheet derivatives. That is over five times their $5.1
trillion in assets. As you can see world financial markets are vulnerable.
One major negative event and it is over. "

"As you can see derivatives continue to distort markets unnaturally
heightening the casino atmosphere."

"Just one segment, equity derivatives, alone has and could further stagger the
stock market."

"Drops now have little to do with reality but more to do with derivative

"Japanese banks have exposure four times their GDP. As we can see derivatives
have already inflicted incalculable collateral damage to the global economy"

"Now concentration of the primary market makes vulnerability even greater as
derivatives grow 4-5 times faster than GDP. This could well leave us in a
situation like we just witnessed at Russian banks. One dealer will go bust
sooner or later, and the whole house of cards will collapse."

"LTCM was too big to fail. Now, who is going to bail out the rest of the
collapsing hedge funds, most of which are offshore, outside U.S. jurisdiction.
Intervention has created the same moral hazard problem that the IMF is so
guilty of. If unsuccessful funds are not allowed to fail someone will have to
bail them all out. Then maybe they'll bail out the losing margin stock buyer.
There is no discipline left. The international monetary system is out of
control. "


*****The point everyone misses is buying derivatives is not investing. It is
gambling, insurance and high stakes bookmaking. Derivatives create

"For eight years we told you this was coming and it is here."

( Now his advice )

"The answer is to have small denomination U.S. currency, gold and silver coins
and stocks and food and protection."


I moved out about 8 years ago. I could see the handwriting on the wall. It
was not only inevitable but just a matter ot time before the house of cards
finally collapsed. 8 years ago, I thought it wiould be years in coming. I
knew that they would find ways of attempting to put off the crash by throwing
good money after bad, exacerbating the problem and making the resultant crash
that much worse. It is all converging with the euro and Y2k. There is not the
slightest doubt that the results will be utterly catastrophic. Everything as
we know it will be wiped out. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Y2K is not happening in a vacuum. It is happening in the most frightening
econmic context imaginable. The Pollyannas do not understand that. The segment
and compartmentalize everything and have an inability to see the big picture.

If you remain in a populated area, you will probably not survive. Or, at best,
have a lousy chance of surviving, if you even call that kind of life,

Meanwhile, us folks whoi bolted to the country will go along, self reliant,
prepared much as if nothing at all happened. We will have plenty of food, as
we stocked it up. We will have our wells for water, our septic systems, our
livestock. If my electricity were out tommorrow, it would be inconvenient ,
but I have a back-up for everything that I presently use electricity for.

All you lovers of 'society' and the '[status quo' are about to have the rug
pulled out from underneath of you. You have been warned and you neglect the
warning. Suffer the deserved result of your calculated stupidity.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:35 - ID#348257)
with all due respect, there is only ONE kind of Capitalism. That is the unrestricted market, free of government interference save for law courts to adjudicate disputes and police situations where force or fraud have been initiated. True Capitalism exists nowhere on earth at present - if it ever did - all else is a mixture, an impurity, and no fair measure of what Capitalism truly is and what it can do.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:41 - ID#254321)
From Matt Drudge: Clinton interviewed by Justice dept today about Campaigngate.
All: Janet Reno has put off deciding in favor of another Independent Counsel until early December. I wonder how much longer she can drag her feet. At least FBI agents were there as well -- not just Justice. But the Director of the FBI answers to Janet Reno.

What a unfortunate time for the Republicans to be in disarray, when they should be on the offensive!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:43 - ID#43349)
I've got a gooood feeling about this
Gold up maybe 4 or 5 dollars tomorrow, another 3 or 4 the day after.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:43 - ID#348257)
Reverse Splits
I know this is a "DUHHH" thing to say, but I think the point I was leading up to is that a reverse split is rather like a signal to buy, in a great sense. As they become prevalent in a particular industry, it means that a turn will soon be at hand. Given a belief in the company, and due diligence according to your own satisfaction, it is better to buy shares after a reverse split ( and then, after a bit of a wait for them to settle lower ) than to buy shares after a forward split.
The forward split being more generally a sign of distribution, or a necessity to keep a broad base of investors interested, or, more importantly, CAPABLE ( if only psychologically ) of buying shares and supporting the stock.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:45 - ID#210114)
Mike Sheller
That is the typical response of a zealot.

Zealotry resulted in the crusades, Nazism, the Holocaust and the Soviet Gulags.

There is a real world out there. One that is far to complex for any single model to encompass.

There are varities of capitalism just as there are varities of cars.

Some better than others, but all workable and legitimate. Each society has to find its own model.

Live Long and Prosper.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:46 - ID#210114)
Beaming Up Now
Live Long and Prosper.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:47 - ID#45173)
Mike Sheller
Utopian Capitalism is different from Utopian Socialism. After 100 years of Utopian Capitalism in a nation of 100 million persons, you will have 100 times more wealth as you started with; 100 people with 99% of it and 999,999,900 million people with the other 1% of the wealth. After 100 years of Utopian Socialism, you'll still have 100 million people. They will have less wealth than they started with; 99 of them will have 99% of the wealth and 999,900 of them with the remaining 1%.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:47 - ID#31868)
Spock, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...c'mon now...fess are just mad cause
you ran out and bought a new Pacer and learned that not all cars are created equal and not all are workable...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:48 - ID#348127)

Some are still not getting it. I made a boat load today buy selling. This is not to say I could not have made more had I held my shares.
Lets say you had 100 shares friday @ .81 = $81
Today you lost 30 shares which leaves you 70 shares.
But the price goes up to $2 so those shares are now worth 2*70 =$140
Get the picture. For every 1000 shares held, you are up apx.$600.00
Can you now see why I said it was great day to sell. Not that tomorrow wont be either, atleast for those of us who held shares before today. Go Gold

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:48 - ID#43349)
A Fed bear

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:50 - ID#43349)
Holiday shopping season crimp

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:53 - ID#344326)
@ anyone notice that Spock's
Transporter is set to energize at just the right time?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:53 - ID#432395)
I always leaned towards the optimistic side of the equation, when it came to Y2K discussions, and what might possibly happen. My view has certaintly changed over the past few months. I've worked in large
generating stations all my life, and whether or not they will be compliant is anybody's guess. I can tell you
that if there is a malfunction with the computers, PLC'S, there is nothing the operators can do, but sit there
and stare into their blank computer screens! Years ago, the older plants could be started up manually, this
isn't the case today.

Are we headed for a major recession, or possible depression? I now believe so. Even IF all the banks, stock markets, and all other institutions are compliant in time, it doesn't make any difference now. This economic collapse has now
become a self-fulfiling prophecy. People are nervous already, and talking about withdrawing their money out
of financial institutions, mutual funds, stock markets, and we still have 13 months to go! This "I want my money now", will continue to snowball, until the economy collaspes.

Mike Sheller
(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:54 - ID#348257)
Eye of Newt
The Republicans ( much as I am NO fan of the Demoncrats ) deserve this disorder and dissolution. Perhaps from the ashes of their wishy washyness will come some new voices, new blood, and a new vision within which to revive a few principles based more on ideals and natural law than political expediency and public bribery. It is so sad that in the midst of a clear case of an unworthy public official resolutely clinging to office ( Clinton ) , America got a resignation all right...but it wasn't the man who should have gone. This is a dark hour indeed. But the implications for goldbugs, once Rubin and Greenspan finally leave town, are simply marvelous.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:57 - ID#43349)
Bonds up

(Mon Nov 09 1998 19:59 - ID#288186)
Gollum; Thee ole gut's talkin' to ya huh? Feeling like Gold's goin' to make its
move UP tomorrow? Sounds good to me! GO GOLD! GO SILVER! GO PLATINUM!

BTW, I bought two Dec Platinums today at 338.50//The posts and
articles I've read sure sound sound to me regarding Platinum!
How's that? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......My gut says all the PM's
will have an UP day tomorrow! How much? I don't know....just up.

P.S. I hope this gut feeling wasn't from the chicken salad I ate!
Gollum, you didn't have chicken salad for supper did you?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:02 - ID#333126)
remember Jeil's charts?

wonder why the predictions changed so much between oct. 30th and nov 6th?

gee... sometimes i worry about what kind of crack he's smoking

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:06 - ID#288264)
Snipped from Craig Corcoran
"The first bounce in a bear market is the best bounce".

Clearly, the old trader adage that the first bounce in a bear market is the best bounce is profound...we would add, watch out for that second fall in a bear market...It often is a killer!

The longer the stock market resists the downward pull of the bear market...the better the prospects for the XAU Index reaching the high end target of 122.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:07 - ID#43349)
I just thought today's action was kinda boring, so I'm a gointa pull the lever early tomorrow morning.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:08 - ID#333126)
asian tiger officially in recession
hot news

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:09 - ID#333126)
muahahahahah... any other M$ haters here?

cute ad by BMW

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:10 - ID#288186)
Gollum; sounds good...Gotta go for at ya in the morn with a golden
smile on my face! : )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:11 - ID#254321)
Brazil, Oil/Saddam
EJ: I think you have it. Russia was 'too big to fail' but it did. Now, Brazil is 'too big to fail'. This is part of human nature -- I didn't see this until I saw your post. Brazil, like Russia before them, thinks they can bargain with the IMF -- because the industrialized world 'cannot afford to let them fail'. And we know the foibles of the IMF also - - their tendency to impose financial restrictions that will only work if the financial system underneath is sound -- which it won't be or the nation involved would not be calling 'uncle' in the first place. The ossified IMF has no skill whatsoever in rolling up their sleeves in finding out what the problem is -- and helping the affected nation to fix the problem. Throwing money at the problem may actually be the worst solution.

So -- we know what will happen -- eventually. It is just a replay of Russia and the IMF. Human nature -- how predictable -- the only part we don't know is when it will all come crashing down.

And -- if I am wrong -- there is the small matter of the 60 billion US that Mexico still has not paid off since 1995.

Cherokee -- You and I are thinking alike! Saddam ( Sadmad? ) is playing us as much as we are playing him -- he at least is consistent. I agree with you -- all we need is to goad Saddam with some fireworks to impress the 'average American' who is supposedly infavor of punishing Saddam because the polls say so. Stupid move.

If we give Saddam enough rope with these ineffective fireworks, he will lob something nasty into Israel, and Israel will respond like a hornets nest. There is no way that WJC has enough clout in the MiddleEast this time to stop Israel from retaliating. And -- the Arabs will defend Saddam -- if he moves cautiously.

We can only hope that the WJC impeachment process moves forward fast enough to keep him from doing something rash, or that the armed forces refuse to cooperate. Unfortunately I am not optimistic, as there are two many bureaucratic 'yes men' that do what WJC wants.

Cherokee -- any idea what this 100 million plus barrel oil surplus is about? Smokescreen? A secret hoard by someone who knows what is about to happen? The US government? Hard to tell the truth from fiction these days.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:16 - ID#219363)
From your link to Singapore's recession: "The bleak forecast comes and Singapore's first economic contraction in 13 years comes as weak electronics exports to the U.S. and Europe compound shrinking demand at home and in recession-torn Asia. Asia accounts for 40 percent of Singapore's trade". Somebody is telling a story to the public, I just heard today that electronics sales in the states did well in the 3rd quarter, but this thing is telling me that exports of electronics to the states during the quarter fell off, even with a super-high dollar which would make Singapore's electronics cheaper than anything we make domestically. Hmmm.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:17 - ID#284255)
Your reference to me being a space cadet.
re the email I posted Nov 8th 7:29

That post, if you go back and read it, was not of my writing.
I'm just the mailman.

If you look amongst the email you will find the authors name.
Robert Magnus.

Now if you were aware, you'd possibly know of this man.
He is a geek - a coder - a programmer.
His words are straight from the horse's mouth.

He is a very concerned geek.
He knows far more than you or I will ever do about coding.
And this is his opinion.

Many other geeks have commented along the same lines.
To them, Gartners reports have lost all creditability.

It makes one wonder when geeks start to question and totaly discount reports of this nature.

Don't call me a space cadet untill you have done your own homework.
Due dilligence is required.

Please do yours.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:18 - ID#254321)
Ping III -- got your message!
sharefin: Thanks! Any chance that there will be enough delay before it hits for gold equities to go up some more? Or did we reach the peak of the wave! This gold bug Tsunami surfer is getting cold feet.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:22 - ID#284255)
Where does your money go????

Call it the Labyrinth...^o-o^

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:24 - ID#194311)
"Snake" exchange rates for world currencies....gollum?
German finance official outlines scheme for world currency snake

FRANKFURT, Nov 9 ( AFP ) - Heiner Flassbeck, a German finance
ministry official seen as a candidate to head the Bundesbank,
outlined German proposals for a global exchange rate system to
control financial markets, on Monday.
Flassbeck who, if appointed to the Bundesbank would have a seat
on the governing council of the European Central Bank ( ECB ) ,
presented proposals for a system of what he called "controlled
flexibility" of global exchange rates.
A system of controlled currency devaluations was needed, he
said, outlining a system which appeared to be a global version of
the old European forex "snake".
But economists here said that the scheme would not work globally
and that such arrangements, far from being a solution to crises such
as the one in Asia, had been the cause of instability.
Flassbeck said that systems of fixed exchange rates, such as
Bretton Woods, and systems of flexible exchange rates had failed to
bring about lasting stability on the world's foreign exchange
Until now, the new German Finance Minister Oskar Lafontaine has
talked only vaguely of a system of "target zones" for exchange
Flassbeck's comments, in the Handelsblatt newspaper, were made
against a background of growing concern about a war of words between
some politicians and central bankers over independence of bankers in
setting monetary policy.
But Industrial Bank of Japan economist, Eckhard Schulte, said
there was "not much consensus in the United States or Japan for any
sort of system of fixed exchange rates.
"They want to maintain the current system of a floating exchange
rates," Schulte said.
Paribas economist Schneider agreed.
"I can't see either US or Japan opting for such a system. There
won't be any way that central banks can control or guarantee
exchange rates in that way, it's simply too big," he said.
IBJ's Schulte said that "in terms of market psychology,
( Lafontaine and Flassbeck ) may actually be doing some real damage
But "the press and the newspapers are paying too much attention
to them both," Schulte said.
"They're playing into their hands: the two are proving very
successful in using the media to put pressure on the ECB ( European
Central Bank ) ."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:25 - ID#29048)
RANGY becomes RANYD midst fire and confusion!

Started By: probart
Date: Nov 9 1998 11:16AM ET

RANGY did a 7 for 10 split today. New symbol is RANYD. The company resource base now stands at 14.09 million ounces, of which 9.74 is attributable. Their medium-term objective is to produce 1/2 million ounces annually, with costs in the lower quartile of the industry. They say they are on track to do this. This all comes from their Chairman Roger Kebble.

Monday, Nov 9 1998 5:44PM ET

PLEASE LET MS. KATHY DU PLESSIS know how pleased you are with the great job RANDGOLD has been doing to keep us all informed. HA!!!


TELEFAX ( 2711 ) 728-2547



And for the record, didn't buy or sell any shares today. The assets are all still there. I'm still bullish, and am hopeful that some good will come from all this confusion. Judging by all the hostile emails in my inbox, this is worth repeating...I'm a shareholder...I don't work for rangy, and unfortunately don't get info any better than the rest.
Hopefully this will change!


For the record I hold some shares and peering through all of the dust and confusion, my position appears to have improved. speed.....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:25 - ID#194311)
Euro confidence what?
Investor belief in hard euro wanes amid perceived political

LONDON, Nov 9 ( AFP ) - Political pressure on European banks to
cut interest rates to spur job creation inside the euro zone is
starting to erode investor confidence in the future European single
currency as a "hard" unit, a study showed on Monday.
"There is a risk that if governments are seen to be influencing
the monetary policy process of the European Central Bank -- an
institution with no track record or credibility in the market --
this could undermine the euro," said a European equities strategist
at Merrill Lynch investment bank, Bryan Allworthy.
A Gallup poll conducted for Merrill Lynch found that 83 percent
of fund managers questioned believed that the euro would be a "hard"
currency, compared with 88 percent in October. Gallup polled 63 fund
managers who control a total of 832 billion dollars.
Last week, the ECB President Wim Duisenberg rejected calls by
leading politicians in Europe to lower rates as a way of stimulating
growth and employment in the euro area.
A number of leading politicans -- most notably Germany's new
Finance Minister Oskar Lafontaine -- have called for lower rates,
fanning the flames of a debate over central bank independence.
Merrill Lynch predicted that European stock markets might fall
further in the coming weeks, after a rally of 15 percent last month
as economic fundamentals here deteriorate.
"There seems to be little incentive for share prices to continue
rising. Indeed, we may not yet have seen the lows in equity markets
in Europe and world-wide," Allworthy said.
The poll showed that investor sentiment towards Japan,
meanwhile, had improved sharply since October.
Out of the Gallup study group, a net 21 percent were optimistic
about the outlook for Japanese stocks over the coming year, compared
with a net 14 percent who were pessimistic one month ago.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:25 - ID#288264)
Fireworks next week???
Klinton is going to Indonesia next week to meet with Malasian, Indonesian and Japanese governments. These governments want a bailout of 90 billion dollars and if they don't get it they are going to default. Guess what....Klinton doesn't have it and cannot agree to it.

U.S. banks are in deep doo doo. Watch the fireworks next week. You can listen to the program on "" or "for the".

It was second half hour of program I believe.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:29 - ID#255151)
Definition of Recession, Depression

A recession is usually defined as two consecutive quarters of GDP decline. Is there a generally accepted definition of a depression as well?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:30 - ID#194311)
Debt defaults imminent from Latin America..
Which ghoulish banker could ask them for money now...not even Goldman...or?

Honduras Debt Unpayable After Mitch

SAN SALVADOR, El Salvador ( AP ) -- Overwhelmed by disaster,
grim-faced Central American leaders gathered Monday to appeal for
more aid in recovering from Hurricane Mitch even as a growing army
of rescue workers struggled to help hundreds of thousands of
Honduran President Carlos Flores Facusse called his country's
$4.2 billion debt ``unpayable'' after one of the worst natural
disasters of this century in the Americas.
``In 72 hours, we lost what we had built, little by little, in
50 years,'' he told a news conference following the summit.
Some European leaders already were proposing to help, echoing a
plan made last week by former President Jimmy Carter. French Prime
Minister Lionel Jospin on Monday called for a moratorium on debt
payments owed by countries hit by Mitch.
German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer also urged that some
debt be forgiven. In addition to the billions owed by Honduras,
Nicaragua owes $6 billion, mainly to international lending
Government and independent relief organizations from around the
world were trying to rush aid to tens of thousands in Honduras and
Nicaragua isolated by ruptured roads, backed-up airports and too
few helicopters.
Honduran ambassador to the United States Edgardo Dumas Rodriguez
said the region ``urgently needs a massive aid program'' similar to
the Marshall Plan that helped Europe recover from World War II.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:33 - ID#333126)
I often wondered myself where those figures of record electronics and PC sales came from. Back when I heard about the negative savings rates, I figured that everything was being bought on credit ( and I suppose that that must be paid... someday ) and that was the way those sales were being kept up.

However, taking a step back, the slowdown in electronics in Singapore is not new news. A major hard drive company closed shop not too many months ago and the figures on high tech exports have been going down for a while now ( except for the iMac Apple factory there that's had a roaring backlog of sells ) .

somebody is selling snakeoil. the scary thought is wondering just who it could be...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:36 - ID#29048)
Good catch on Rivlin's comments. More rate cuts are bullish for gold and it looks like Treasury will pressure the Fed to cut sooner than later. I'm changing my vote in the latest poll from "no change" at the next FOMC meeting to "will cut rates".

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:36 - ID#34883)
Market Rap

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:38 - ID#219363)
RECESSION: Downturn in economic activity, defined by many economists as at least two consecutive quarters of decline in a country's gross domestic product.

DEPRESSION: Economic condition characterized by falling prices, reduced purchasing power, an excess of supply over demand, rising unemployment, accumulating inventories, deflation, plant contraction, public fear and caution, and a general decrease in business activity. The Great Depression of the 1930s, centered in the United States and Europe, had worldwide repercussions.

Source: Barron's Finance & Investment Handbook Fourth Edition ISBN 0-8120-6465-8

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:41 - ID#284255)
Obviously we have to watch this next downturn.
If the swing can work of it's excesses and the markets go down little then I'd say we're in a safe phase and not to worry.

But if the swing now heads downhill on its cycle and the sellers come out. Then I would become more concerned.

I have two takes on this at the moment.
One where we're half way through this current rally.
The other one is where we are now looking over the chasm about to plunge headfirst down into it.

Personally I'd be out of all longs and short through this downcycle of the swing.
To much risk.
But if the market retraces little and the swing bottoms out
Then I'd say we're going much higher.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:47 - ID#237299)
JTF, Cherokee @ oil
I also read that article earlier today and was puzzled at the tone of the author. He would lead one to believe that 300mbl is a *large* amount of oil. It's not. The world uses about 68mbl/day, and the US is currently importing about 15mbl/day.

The author of the article writes as if once this *huge* mystery is solved it have serious effect on world oil prices. The world drinks that much oil in a week and the US in 3 weeks.

It's akin to saying someone has stashed 300 ounces of gold and when it's found everybody better look out.

Theme Investor
(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:47 - ID#370383)

If Rangy did a 7 for 10 split, why does the NASDAQ site reflect a 1 for 3 reverse split, and loss accordingly. You would think that they would know, since RANYD is listed on their exchange, but I hope they are wrong ( but I doubt it ) . I emailed them for info, and they emailed me back and referred me to contact the company. Most SA gold shares were down today also. Hopefully waiting with doubtful anticipation.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:48 - ID#43349)
The snake in the woods:

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:49 - ID#219363)
I'm betting on the chasm, but believing in the rally. *grin*. Kinda like betting on Santa to bring me a new lotus elan but knowing it's just my girlfriend and the gift is a new shirt and a tie. Of course, if Santa does come this year, drinks are me.

EZ Believer
(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:50 - ID#173262)
Mapleman .... Sometimes it's a harder decision when to sell than buy.
Hindsight is 20-20. However, I wouldn't think of
selling at this point. Everyone who has been
around the block in PM equities knows the inherent
risks involved. Comenserate with those risks is
the opportunity for stratospheric returns. Due to
multiple factors PM equity investors have had ( and
do have ) a chance to buy at historic low price/value
RANYD ( RANGY ) is a company that has been grossly
undervalued by the market. At times it seems that
this value might never be realized. Bogged down
in a narrow trading range with anemic volume sent
many would be profiteers to the showers. For those
who stuck with it and accumulated the true reward is
not in a quick double. In case anyone hasn't noticed,
we are still in a bear market in PM equities. Yes, we
had a little mini-ralley, and I did very well. But we have
not even seen the beginning. The artificial supression of
gold cannot hold out much longer. When the dollar stumbles,
and some big banks wobble, and the derivatives counterparties
start defaulting, gold will take it's normal place in
history! Then attention will once again focus on the
producers of the yellow metal. With 270,000 oz per
year from Syama alone, RANYD will no longer be
considered a junior when the market turns. When the
funds start flowing into PM mutual funds and you see
a ladle of molten gold being poured on the cover of money
magazine is when the real payoff will take place. Trying
to time a stock you bought at the rock bottom doesn't make
sense. If it doesn't go to 1.25 you might never own it again.
Or if you do, it might be a lot more expensive the second
time around. Remember, the second part of the money
making equasion is "sell high".

Of course, a profit in hand is money earned. Time will tell.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:51 - ID#43349)
The story about the missing oil kind of reminds me about the stories we used to hear of CB's selling gold or stockpiles of silver in uknown Ukrainian republics. Maybe Ted Arnold has moved into oil.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:51 - ID#266105)
real negative growth, jumbo shrimp, a good job and President Clinton

I've seen recession as two negative quarters and depression,
small d, technically, as four consecutive negative quarters.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:53 - ID#43349)
Away for the evening...
Gotta go do some stuff and get to bed so I can get up early for some lever pulling. Good night.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:53 - ID#284255)
Apparently this is a spoof.

Sorry if it caused some consternation, worry etc.

I just received an email saying it was a false write up.
WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - President Clinton directed his government
Saturday to find a way to close a legal loophole that allows
speakers/journalists to express their ideas at public places with no
questions asked.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:53 - ID#227305)
that story seems more like a flat out lie.I am in the automobile business and the press is full of stories about record automobile sales and demand.This is not my experience ,nor is it the experience of considerable contacts I have with dealers throughout the mid-west.The automible business began to go south about a year ago.It is worsening.If the computer business is doing so well,soon much of the stockpiled inventories will have been sold. That seems to be the only place the inventory could have come from. Like the automible business,the profits from those sales are more important than any of the other numbers that are being put up.It almost does seem like a conspiracy.Surely not,I keep telling myself.Say it ain't so.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 20:56 - ID#284255)
My money would be on the chasm too.

I'll go and do a chart on the swing overlaid over the Dow and post it.

It'll take 10 minutes or so.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:04 - ID#254321)
US Dollar looking strong right now
sharefin: I would guess that it is a bit early for the markets to head south. Right now in the US retail sales are strong -- it will take a major shock to bring them down, IMHO.

But -- we do have Kenneth Starr testifying soon -- Congressman Hyde has promised that the impeachment proceedings will end by December of this year. And -- the worst possible witness for the Dems is Kenneth Starr -- all Hyde needs to do is ask a question like -- do you know anything about WJC taking drugs in the Whitehouse -- etc. This is probably too extreme to happen, but the pandora's box could open. Kenneth Starr's two grand juries are still in business, and collecting testimony. Given the Republican's panic about impeachment, it is likely that the Judicial types who advise Kenneth Starr will tell him to release some more damaging evidence to Congress. A Hillary indictment on racketeering is possible -- who knows?

These next two months will be interesting, especially since the anti-WJC forces have been quiet so that they will not be accused of influencing the elections.

A big WJC fiasco would push gold up alot -- and the US dollar down, IMHO.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:05 - ID#252150)
Lgb@The IMF-- Keep you fat, dumb & happy. You got it.
Except, for 90% of you they don't have to worry about the dumb.

Beer pizza beer pizza beer pizza beer pizza beer pizza beer pizza beer pizza. The USG can control the population....until it runs out.

Then, if you're not in a gated community, you better make sure that you have high defensible ground & lots of ordinance.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:06 - ID#284255)
This email sent from a Pastor
This is Pastor Chris...

Yesterday, a woman in our church told me she had found a "Y2K bag" that
her little daughter had put together and had hidden. No one in the
family knew she was doing this. She emailed me the list of contents that
this little girl had secretly put together by herself and I've printed
it below:

- - - - - - - - -


Here is the list of things Bryneeea' had packed in her Y2K bag......

hair brush
hair rubber bands
plastic garbage bags
muffin mix
hot chocolate packettes
individually packed crackers
cat food
lip gloss
band aides
Christian tracts
some change
and a change of clothing.
also her favorite blankey

Seems she'd forgotten to add some gold to her list.
What is scary is the degree to which this Y2k stuff had entered this small girl's consciousness.

A sad fact of life.
I feel for the little ones.
We must all take care of them for the sake of tomorrow.
Plan and be prepared. Please.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:07 - ID#219363)
@ptwoskool, @Ravenfire, @Gold-bug children
@ptwoskool, @Ravenfire: Yeah, I wonder where those numbers come from too. I mean, you'd think that a "sale" meant that somebody sold something, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Seems that all kinds of people make sales when they project sales, or when they start up a new marketing campaign, or when they finish building the damn thing and put it on the train, or or or. Me, at least for my business, I call it a sale when the check clears.

@Gold-bug children: I didn't say exactly what I meant to say earlier, of course Santa is real and comes every year, but he doesn't always bring me what I want. My girlfriend also brings me presents and they are predictable. Don't let anyone tell you that Mr. Nick isn't real, because he is, I have pictures and radar telemetry.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:08 - ID#45173)
Yahoo! has its own interest rate poll, but the question is:
In a speech last week to the Securities Industry Association, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan said it was plausible that the "current episode of investor fright might dissipate." So...maybe it's not the end of the world after all. Greenspan watchers interpreted this to mean the Fed might not cut interest rates again at its November 17 meeting. Given his comments, we want to know:

Should the Fed cut interest rates again to prevent a recession?

Of 677 votes so far...

Yes 60%

No 39%
You don't suppose the folks voting are enjoying this stock market rally? Nah.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:13 - ID#147201)
2BRO2B ypur 14:39F
For some reason I can't ID the TED. Thanx for your reply and an ID on TED

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:21 - ID#254321)
Autos up this year or down?
ptwskool: When I go to work, I see dealers stuffed full of quality Hondas, etc. that do not seem to be moving off the lot. I hear that Brazil auto sales are down 40% plus. But GM/Ford/Chrysler etc sales are supposedly better than ever!

Do you have a way to document that someone is lying to us? Count railroad automobile car traffic? Some raw number that has not been 'massaged' by the 'powers that be'?

I suspect that it would be very tempting to keep the party going as long as possible -- at least till after the election we just had.

I think all at Kitco would be very grateful if you could identify something that would get to the bottom of this. Think of the newsscoop for Matt Drudge!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:21 - ID#237299)
That post from the pastor almost made a grown man cry. Your right; God save the children- they shoudn't have to live in anxiety.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:22 - ID#227305)
@ Envy
I think I've got it: It seem that with the record unemployment rate,that the government has had trouble hiring experienced bean counters and prognisticators.I'm still looking,but I bet somewhere I'll find that the former CFO's of Oxford Health ,Mercury Finance ,and others like them work for the government now.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:22 - ID#288229)


if you ever so much as cast a wry eye at
the-fin-who-shares you will see a
with a laser pointer focused on your
furry little head.....

the fin has EARNED his status.......and the
alliegance of those who can 'see' the truth
from the best bring the atomics
if you want to play here.....chop-asaki.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:24 - ID#206235)
@ JTF.... Latest auto sales
Friday's Wall Street Journal reprted car sales in the U.S. WAY up in October...across the board for virtually all makes and types.... the strongest new car sales in months. The figures came from dealers and manufacturers, not the Govt.

RJ duly reported same here a few days ago before the WSJ article.

Let's deal with facts not anecdotal speculation. Much as we LOVE G & D talk!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:24 - ID#254321)
FED to lower rates next week?
All: If AG lowers rates again next week, when everything is 'looking good', I would consider that a very bearish signal. After all, didn't he just say that things are getting better?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:28 - ID#254321)
G 'Nite all! -- Upover and

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:29 - ID#252150)
JP@Deflation is accelerating. I hope & think you are right & have established
short positions in SPY, AMAT & PDS. But, I don't underestimate the PPT.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:33 - ID#288286)
autp sales
I have been selling cars and trucks for 13 years and I can assure you that no dealer I know new or used is having record sales. I see these claims,too and they are just not true. World wide sales may off set some of U.S. sluggish sales but I do know they are slow through out the southeast U.S.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:37 - ID#219363)
Maybe the high auto sales numbers are on the books as sales because of back-order from the strikes earlier this year ? Dunno, but I do have to admit that I trust what car dealers are saying, I mean, they do sell cars. Maybe it's the reverse Platinum thing, where the mint can't deliver because sales are so strong, but the price of Platinum just sits there doing nothing. *grin*. I hear the same about gold, directly from my broker's mouth.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:40 - ID#317211)
@ Chicken man - are you out there?
What's your take on the bond action today? tomoro? When do we bail out?
What say the Bond Mon?

All: At first did not agree w/skwerl,sharefin et al.. re imminent worldwide major problems. But am starting to recognise a confluence of time-lines converging in the near future.

Noone is DEALING WITH economic/social/y2k/international problems,
THEY ARE STALLING! Hoping other events will bail them out, a la WJC.
This stalling will only magnify the great fall of all we know.

Was gonna build a 2-car garage w/workshop, ( a luxury ) .
Now will make it a bunker. Still parks the car, and more...
a necessecity maybe.

If not, not much lost. If so, how do I maintain a link to Kitco.
Survival gained = Sanity lost?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:40 - ID#227305)
My point is that desperate people,highly leveraged people,will buy anything if "the payment" is right or the lease sounds good,etc.The amount of incentives being offered coupled with gullible finance companies willing to accept "weak" paper to keep their numbers up as well,does not make for a strong market.Soon,all of these customers will be used up too.The Quality of the numbers is what should be so suspect.Even this sleight of hand will take a couple quarters to show up in a big way.Maybe by then,things will have improved? Probably not. Even though,even then------ if the bad news gets mixed in with enough good news......... you see how the message gets garbled.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:41 - ID#206235)
Kapster says Platinum! (RJ'll love it)
Kapman's latest....

BUY STILL MORE PLATINUM! While this is not particularly original advice from this page, as it repeats a similar recommendation in late October, the recent price drop gives investors a rare second opportunity to buy platinum at prices less than two percent above multi-year lows. The much-touted "resistance" at $350 is a myth, and regardless of how much will be supplied from Russia over any given period of time, the supply-demand situation is compelling. Traders' commitments remain strongly bullish, while the most recent survey from Market Vane shows that only 11% of investors are currently bullish on platinum, even lower than the bullish sentiment at gold's bottom in late August. In addition, the recent bullish swing in traders' commitments for gold makes it likely that the two most precious metals will rise together, with platinum leading the way higher.

COMMENTS OF THE DAY: Commodities fell moderately on Monday, while precious metals closed mostly lower. Gold dipped 60 cents, silver rose 2.5 cents, platinum slumped $3.20, and palladium declined $1.40. The U.S. dollar closed moderately higher, with significant gains against the Japanese yen. Bonds finally recouped some of their recent sharp losses, while the Dow failed to make its much-anticipated try for 9000. The Russell 2000 index of small-capitalization U.S. stocks early on hit its highest level since August 21 before ending the day with a net loss, thus marking a bearish key reversal. This may or may not be significant; the key reversal in the Russell 2000 on August 19 at a slightly higher level did not seem particularly ominous at the time to most analysts. ( The July 17 bearish key reversal in the Russell 2000 was confirmed by successive key reversals on July 20 and July 21, so additional confirmation is needed before this is a strong bearish signal. )

ON THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE there were 50 new highs and 18 new lows, with 1111 stocks advancing and 1917 stocks declining. On the Nasdaq there were 71 new highs and 35 new lows, with 1872 stocks advancing and 2259 stocks declining. The index put-call ratio was a slightly pessimistic 1.35, while the equity put-call ratio was a slightly pessimistic 0.42.

Monday's COMEX gold estimated volume was a very light 16,000 lots. Total COMEX gold open interest on Friday plunged 5,262 to 176,619 contracts; since commercials are now net long, any decline in open interest is generally bearish. Over the next few weeks, the December to February rollover is likely to exert downward pressure on total open interest as some commercials on both the long and short ends close out their positions rather than roll them over. COMEX silver open interest rose 879 to 75,280 lots. COMEX gold warehouse stocks were unchanged at 836,648 ounces, while COMEX silver warehouse stocks fell 500,750 to 73,999,894 ounces, modestly above their lowest level since 1982. The Johannesburg gold index closed Monday morning at 965.5, down 19.3 rand, with the U.S. dollar at 5.5505 rand, just above the fewest rand per dollar since late June. On Friday, August 28, 1998, the dollar touched a new all-time high of 6.8600 rand.


Friday, November 6, 1998: The overall current outlook for gold has risen from MODERATELY BULLISH to SIGNIFICANTLY BULLISH, reflecting the sharp improvement in the traders' commitments for COMEX gold futures.

Friday, November 6, 1998: The traders' commitments indicator for gold has risen sharply from MODESTLY BEARISH to SIGNIFICANTLY BULLISH, as commercials have switched from being substantially net short to modestly net long, and speculators are roughly 3:1 short to long.

Friday, November 6, 1998: The gauges of future inflation indicator has dropped from SLIGHTLY BEARISH to MODERATELY BEARISH due to higher negative growth rates for the ECRI FIG and CIBCR indices.

Tuesday, November 3, 1998: The worldwide interest rate policy indicator has climbed again from MODERATELY BULLISH to SIGNIFICANTLY BULLISH, reflecting the intensifying trend toward reducing short-term interest rates to dampen the severity of the worldwide recession.

As of November 3, 1998, released at 3:30 p.m. on November 6, 1998, the commitments for COMEX gold futures show commercial insiders long 113,225, short 100,392; speculators long 9,917, short 27,612. Small traders included in the numbers above were long 36,061, short 31,199. The average historic ratio for commercials is 2:3 long to short; for speculators, 2:1 long to short. Commercials have switched from being substantially net short to modestly net long in just two weeks, which marks a startling shift in position, and confirms that commercials are committed ( pun intended ) buyers at all prices below $300 spot. In addition, speculators are nearly 3:1 short to long, with fewer than 10,000 long positions, representing a very limited pool of potential sell stops to be triggered in a downturn. Therefore, this indicator has been raised substantially to SIGNIFICANTLY BULLISH.

The Economic Cycle Research Institute ( ECRI ) future inflation gauge ( FIG ) for October, released November 6, 1998, was at 106.5, a 23-month low, compared to 108.9 for September. Its smoothed annualized growth rate fell to -4.6% from -0.8%.

The Columbia University Center for International Business Cycle Research ( CIBCR ) monthly leading inflation index, released November 6, 1998 for the month of October, was measured at 101.7, down from 103.1 in September. Its smoothed semi-annualized growth rate was -3.3%, down from -1.1%.

This indicator has been lowered to MODERATELY BEARISH.


The traders' commitments for the white metals as of November 3, 1998, released at 3:30 p.m. on November 6, 1998, showed a mixed picture. For COMEX silver futures, commercial insiders were long 12,371, short 46,302; speculators long 28,055, short 9,397. This means that the commitments for silver remain strongly bearish, little changed from two weeks ago. Looking at NYMEX platinum futures, commercial insiders were long 9,188, short 6,498; with speculators long 2,964, short 7,785, which is strongly bullish, little changed from two weeks ago. For NYMEX palladium futures, commercial insiders were long 2,733, short 1,774; and speculators long 30, short 798. This is strongly bullish for palladium, up from significantly bullish two weeks ago.

This indicator is still SLIGHTLY BULLISH. Platinum remains the white metal of choice with palladium a close second. Platinum represents a compelling buy, especially as platinum prices are less than two percent above their recent lows last seen in 1985.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:42 - ID#288229)


what is the $value of 300kkbbl of oil?

now you're cookin'.......and heading in
the right direction......

i believe it has been sold......the question
is........who got the cash? and why deception?
short-term it does not matter......those who
laundered this commodity---which they have a lot of----
needed cash---which they had little of----

and for what end? WEAPONS FOR WAR.......sold by the west
for a our enemies......

...greed will indeed be the steed of
destruction for the west..............cherokeeism.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:44 - ID#206235)
@ ssc-nut
No offense fellow holder of that dog silver stock, SSC...but one locale does not a total number make.

The WSJ article addressed USA wide manufacturer reported sales for October,... and reported a very sharp increase and multi month high....

Afraid I tossed it, as I do each WSJ or I'd cite the actuals.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:46 - ID#288229)


the truth is speaking to you from the aether....
what sayest you? the sellers of cars are telling ( you ) the truth!!!!!

damndest thing i ever saw.........yar.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:46 - ID#206235)
@ Cherokee...stinkiest place??
Stinkiest place on earth is wherever Yassar Arafat and Saddan Hussein reside.

( Taking shelter from incoming...... )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:47 - ID#284255)
Dow - Swing chart

Are we half way up the rally with distribution to start?
Or at the edge of the precipice.

If we are actually in a bear market then I'd back the 2nd case.
If we're still in a bull market I'd back the 1st case.

Soon to find out.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:48 - ID#284255)
Russia - What Must Be Done: My Checkered Coat

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:53 - ID#266105)

TED spread-- difference between the Treasury bill and eurodollar
rates, I think it is calculated on the 90-day rate. It is usually
pretty low, recently climbed to about .9 ( 90 basis points ) . At
the height of the October '87 certainties it climbed to 1.1 or
1.3 or somesuch.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:54 - ID#206235)
@ Cherokee...yup!
Not much detail, not the WSJ...but an abbreviated post.

RTS: ExpertSource can offer several highly qualified experts to comment on this story:

Tarry Shebesta is president of Automotive Consumer Services, Inc. and has spent 8 years in the automotive industry focused on retailing and buying services. 513-624-0551, ex. 11

Gary Edgar is vice president of Reed Exploration Companies and is an expert in automotive sales and marketing. 617-630-2263

Gregory Chow is a professor of economics at Princeton University and studies the demand for automobiles in the United States. 609-258-4030

Richard Hill is a professor of sociology at Michigan State University and concentrates on the automobile industry. 517-353-5012

(Mon Nov 09 1998 21:55 - ID#288229)

'bito....'s where realistic..--yer bud-- lives!; )

had to do it...had to do bit! i set the hook....
and boated 2 fish with one hook.......

your fishing friend....


(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:00 - ID#206235)
Cars ,cars, the musical fruit...the more you sell the more you toot
The Associated Press
D E T R O I T,  Nov. 4 

5 Automakers Post New Records
October Auto Sales Surge

Sport utility vehicles, pickups and full-size cars accounted for most of Chryslers 20 percent gain.

New October sales records, several major automakers.
Several major automakers broke their October U.S. sales records last month, as demand for new cars and light trucks remained unusually strong despite fears about the stock markets gyrations and fears of an economic slowdown.

 Strong industry sales continue to be driven by competitive pricing and tempting lending rates, Yale Gieszl, a vice president for Toyota Motor Sales USA, said Tuesday. Consumers seem to be looking beyond the recent market turmoil with optimism.
 Toyota, Chrysler, Honda, Volkswagen and Audi posted their best October ever, breaking records that dated as far back as 1985.
 Chryslers sales rose 20 percent compared with October 1997; sport utility vehicles, pickups and full-size cars contributed most of the gain. Toyotas U.S. sales increased 27 percent, and Hondas improved nearly 10 percent.
 Struggling Nissan was the major exception; its sales fell 7 percent, despite $2,000 rebates on its leftover 98s and a 19 percent improvement by its Infiniti luxury brand.
 General Motors and Ford planned to report their October sales today.

Chrysler Merger Nears Completion
German automakers again posted some of the biggest percentage gains: Audi had a 137 percent improvement over October 1997, its best sales month of the year so far and its best October since 1986; Volkswagens U.S. sales were up almost 69 percent, its best October since 1985.
 VW and Audi have benefited from a revamped model lineup. Volkswagen is seeing the popularity of its new Beetle rub off on its other models, while Audis A4, A6 and all-aluminum A8 sedans are proving to be hits with luxury car buyers.
 Chryslers sales of 226,179 vehicles broke the previous October record of 205,393, set in 1996. The October sales report likely was the last for Chrysler as an independent U.S. company. Its merger with Daimler-Benz AG is expected to be completed during the week of Nov. 16.
 Chryslers four models off its redesigned LH platformthe Chrysler Concorde, LHS, 300M and Dodge Intrepidboosted the companys car sales total by 27 percent over the year-ago level.
 Chryslers truck sales rose 17 percent, led by strong demand for the new Dodge Durango SUV and the Dodge Ram and Dakota pickups, as well as the Jeep Cherokee and Wrangler. Jeep Grand Cherokee sales were down due to the changeover to the 99 model; the 99s were just beginning to reach showrooms in volume last month.
 Among other foreign automakers that reported U.S. sales Tuesday, Mitsubishi Motors was up 12 percent, Subaru posted a 1 percent gain, BMW improved 10 percent, Saab rose 85 percent, Volvo gained 2 percent and BMWs Land Rover unit was up 45 percent.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:02 - ID#29048)
Car and Truck Stats by category for October with % gain/loss

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:06 - ID#45173)
Yahoo! poll on Y2K
Wonder if this is representative of 'net users in general or just Yahoo! Finance types. If so, there's a lot of nervous folks out there.
Tick...tick...tick...Is it a lot of hype or are we headed for the end of the world? Everybody seems to have an opinion about the severity of the Year 2000 Problem. Scores of articles have been written about Y2K, but there still seems to be no consensus. We want to know what you think will occur when Janauary 1, 2000 rolls around.

What will happen in the year 2000?

Of 18792 votes so far...

Nothing; it's a lot of hype.............16%

Some system failures....................60%

Total meltdown; I'm hiding in a cave....23%

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:10 - ID#284255)
It sure touched my heart.
And it needs to touch a whole lot more hearts too, to get the message out.

Noone is DEALING WITH economic/social/y2k/international problems

Straight to the heart of the matter.
This is what bothers me more than anything.
If only Y2k could be accepted as a coming reality.
And the truth be known.

Then the sooner we could all start to prepare.
Only in the understanding will the answers be found.

Denial heads won't accept that we need to get a move along.
That it is serious.

We need that realisation, so that we can work through the problems.
So it becomes a large bump in the road, we can safely navigate.

Untill this acceptance comes along and serious planning takes place.
Then all I can say is, buy more gold and food.
Prepare today and take care.

Cause this speed bump's got damn sharp teeth.
And has the potential to rip out the soft underbelly of society today as we know it.

And none of us would care for that.....

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:11 - ID#255151)
October Car Sales--Cherokee

Can confirm one purchase. A '94 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo. Purchased on Halloween.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:13 - ID#206235)
@ EJ... Polls
Similar to the Kitco poll, where the majority was proven correct on the closing POG last week.... the majority 60% voters are right on Y2K as well.

The 23% hiding in caves, will be in for a big disappointment.... ( not to mention embarrasment..... )

But they can always look at the bright side, they won't have to bother with those hig hpaying jobs in the city that they quit, and they'll have a year or two supply of food & firewood and a generator and....hey....aybe their quality of life will go UP!!!

( look for an unclaimed cave.... )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:13 - ID#237299)
Ah ha! So the Sandman sold the crisco, to buy rocket fuel. You might be right.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:14 - ID#350194)
@ Miro (and Oliver and Hardy-Har-Har)
Let me get this right; WITHOUT searching back through all the crapola, did Oliver ACTUALLY propose that there might be a CONSPIRACY to tone down the Y2K posts at KITCO? C'mon Oliver - Admit it. You were one of the sheeple GLUED to your set EVERY day of the OJ trial. YOU need this stuff! It's FUN. IT's something that MUST take up 50% of our waking hours. We MUST inform the world constantly or they WON'T Understand In TIME. Chicken-Little was VICIOUSLY maligned! Hey Bud! Everone around here is OVER informed. It's the sheeple THAT have still not heard about it that need help. Find-out how to contact them. It ain't here. WE do know. 'Nuff Said.
"Date: Mon Nov 09 1998 17:54
Miro ( @Oliver on conspiracy to stop Y2K discussion on Kitco? ) "

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:16 - ID#45173)
Update: November Interest Rates Change Poll
Will Big Al raise rates, lower, or leave 'em alone?

73 votes
29% lower rates
68% unchanged
3% raise rates


(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:19 - ID#147201)
Tantalus Rex re Gold and Chinese people
Some body mentioned that if the Chinese would allow the people to go dig and pan for gold, they would solve a big problem. With the Chinese dragline, a damn bunch of gold would turn up and consumer speding could turn the trick. Same for Russia

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:20 - ID#219363)
As always, thank you very much for the swing chart. : )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:22 - ID#227305)
Cars and trucks
Ok guys,I concede that the numbers reported are impressive.If they hadn't been so impressive,some of us who sell cars would not have taken exception to them.That is why I polled those I know in the mid-west and their answers did not support the numbers either.Let me say that I believe the numbers too.I read them in the paper.It made me feel like I was missing the prom---- that I was doing something wrong.Kinda like the gal who refused to believe that it was true that a woman had a greater chance of being killed by a terrorist than getting married after 40.Of course she knew that the percentages were skewered........... It just didn't feel like it.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:24 - ID#206235)
Sharefin.... Y2K denial??
I'm completely baffled by your contention that Y2K isn't being taken seriously. I can't open a magazine, listen to a radio show, or look at a net link without seeing another report on what is being done. Just tonight they had a big special on it on the biggest San Francisco network station News ( KRON ch 4 for those around here...repeated at 11:00 tonight PST )

Virtually every large corporate, finance, utility, local, state, and federal and Govt. entity ( in U.S. anyway ) has devoted serious resources to a Y2K compliance plan.

You yourself have posted long lists of Y2K resource websites.... a subject
problem that perhaps has more sites devoted to it than any other subject out there right now.

My own complany has an inttranet website with a very long list of links, implementation plan, etc etc. ( a few of the better links and link lists below ) ( Air Force Y2K page, Good ) ( Defense Logistics Y2K, Good ) ( Govt. link gateway, Y2K ) ( Y2K links, exhaustive! ) ( Govt. links, good list )

The thing is... a lot of U.S. and European effort is going to "spill over" into third world infrastructures due to the need to bring supplier's into compliance, etc.

I realize you mentioned "international" in your post...but surely you don't believe the problem isn't getting enough attention in business / Govt. world in U.S. of A. ???

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:24 - ID#338228)
RANYD...still confused...
Seldom do you see a stock rise in price after a reverse stock split. When I saw the price down this morning I bought in hoping to pick the stock up at a discount...however, when both National Disc Broker's and Yahoo's quote systems reversed what had been shown as a loss all day to a gain I was in a state of fear - I had not anticipated paying a 66% premium on a reverse stock I did just that...I split...sold what I had bought.

I am still waiting for confirmation as to whether it was a 1 for 3 or 7 for 10 reverse split. Yahoo is currently showing it up 13/16ths for a 72% gain on the day. For all you RANGY/RANYD holders I hope it was a 7 for 10 reverse split.

Interestingly, Fidelity's website did not report either a gain or loss, just the current bid, ask and last - at least they wern't taking sides.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:26 - ID#219363)
Do'n that red thing.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:26 - ID#344326)
How bad Y2K actually turns out to be, no one will know until it actually happens. One thing I feel confident in saying is that there will be a panic. No doubt in my mind of that. My proof? I live in a rural/surburban area. You would not believe the rush on foodstuffs when only a few inches of snow is predicted. Mutliply that times many thousands and you have Y2K. If people are starting to buy gold coins and food ONE YEAR before the snow storm....well you get my point.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:28 - ID#255151)
Asia, Envy

Asian stocks heading down. Singapore down almost 4%. Envy-- thanks for depression definition. Them puts may do well this week, eh!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:29 - ID#432395)
@MOONEY--Check out the backup site.--Yer ole buddies r back!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:31 - ID#159145)
RE: automotive sales
Have been lease manager for major Ford Franchise in metro market for 11 years. Current new vehicle sales are tracking approximately 8% higher than 97. The market will remain strong for another few months and take the tube. Many of the sales alluded to in the numbers above and in previous posts are a anomoly created by a large cyclical purchase of rental fleets. Money has contracted at the retail level for the last 5 successive months. The average customer now has TDSR's above 40% making the financing of the auto almost an impossibility. Expect some very strong promos on the horizon from all manufactures. I am currently dealing with more money in dealer subsidies than I have ever seen in my total 25 years in the business. The manufactures are buying the exsisting market share and still have lease end returns that are upside down 25%. I expect this to be my last year in the business.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:32 - ID#350194)
BTW - After watching that trial for a year and a half - aaaaaWhhhaaaat was the final outcome?
OJ's final question to the judge, after he was aquitted, 'Can I have my gloves back now?'

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:33 - ID#219363)
We shall see. PUT options are us and every dog has his day. arf!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:35 - ID#284255)
Envy - my pleasure
It's been a while since there's been this much red???

Nervous longs?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:38 - ID#147201)
2BRO2B your reply
Thanx. Somehow I have overlooked this. Is there a source of this info daily? TIA, Charlie

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:39 - ID#410194)
Educational reality check!
Price of cocoa on May 4th: 1600
Started a multi-week and multi-month descent 10 days later
Price of cocoa today: 1450

Date: Mon May 04 1998 15:14
cherokee__A ( @-----don't-be-afraid-of-the-lawn-mower-blade......chop.chop.a.chop.chop.a.chopa.chop ) ID#344308:
Copyright  1998 cherokee__A All rights reserved

what is the question?
the answer is cocoa....

you s&d'rs will love this.....cocoa going to the moon due to
the dispensers dying of malaise....takes 5+ years to grow a
cocoa tree to where it will begin producing other precious..
the chocolated one will cost an arm and a leg before this
scenario plays out over a FIVE YEAR PERIOD.....ahem...ALLABOARD...
long term call options are looking very sweet.....

cherokee!; ) ...driver-of-the-smoke-signal-mobile--fatimmmf.wooo.woooo.wooo

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:40 - ID#344326)
@ the sea of red on Yahoo
I'm wondering if it's because the DOW was down today. Not happened in while, right? That leads me to believe this whole thing is built on hot air, namely the FED rate reduction. So how long before we are at .25%, like Japan just to keep the DOW and S&P up? Got Golf?

Chicken man
(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:46 - ID#341297)
RANGY Shareholders
The reverse stock split might have more to do with not being kicked off the NASDAQ board for low price ( under $1 ) for too long a duration.Read in WSJ an article about a hand full of stocks ( can't remember names.... besides it don't matter ) ....anyway these stocks were violating some rule that NASDAQ by reverse splitting the price was raised...

For the curious, it might be something to look into...

Just a thought...Chicken man..

Put..put..put..put..put..put....All Aboard..train's getting ready to leave!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:52 - ID#219363)
Thanks for clearing all that up about the auto sales. I was kinda wondering why the only place I'd seen one of the new Dodge Intrepids was at Enterprise rent a car *grin*. Drives nice, looks good on television too, but can't say I've seen too many of them on the roads.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:53 - ID#413156)
Gold Survey
This was a survey taken February 1998 and update survey taken October 1998 for 1999.

Gold high 336.00 Platinum 435.00 Silver 6.25

Gold low 250.00 Platinum 292.00 Silver 5.00

Average 305.00 380.00 5.55

1999 survey

Gold high 352.00 Platinum 426.00 Silver 5.80

Gold low 225.00 Platinum 265.00 Silver 3.80

Average 258.00 288.00 4.36

100 average people used in survey with some knowledge of precious metals .

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:54 - ID#31868)
Realistic, Namaste' gulp and a puff...ahem...but the way I figure it Cherokee has
roughly 1645 days left in his:

"the chocolated one will cost an arm and a leg before this scenario plays out over a FIVE YEAR PERIOD.....ahem...ALLABOARD...
long term call options are looking very sweet....."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:57 - ID#344326)
Brabo Tolerant1!
I guess even Realistic need a reality check now and then.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:57 - ID#18357)
missing oil ...why now?
this story reeks. first of all, those inventory models have known this for awhile, it happened before and was found out that demand was estimated too low. now all of a sudden we are all informed of this titanic discrepency, through wsj and cnbc ( so every idiot knows the poop ) right as negotiations are seemingly breaking down with iraq.

ok, so i should buy oil because there is this big missing supply shortage and we are probably going to bomb iraq and make the supply situation worse/disrupted? i think its a phony. the story is planted in traders' minds and will disturb speculators. grist for the mill.

all i know is that oil will be denominated in euros at some point and oil needs to be at a certain level when the switch is made. does anyone else sense something phony with that oil story?

(Mon Nov 09 1998 22:58 - ID#45173)
Strong words you speak. Getting out of the car business? The AAMA forecasts agree with you there will be a slowdown in '99, but not a fall-off-the-face-of-the-earth decline.

Check out the Personal Savings stats, a real eye-popper. Supports your more drastic expectations. All the other '97 to '98 stats are within a few percentage points of each other but Personal Savings ( SAAR ) drops from $151.9B to $35.3B. Or maybe they dropped a digit from the $100B column.

Now I really am going to sleep.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:01 - ID#284255)
Tough question.
Personally I don't think the situation is being well looked at.

Sure many big companies are working hard on the problems.
But go read the latest 10Q reports on US utilities.
Not all good news.

Are the public being informed as to what could go wrong?

Go out into any town and ask a 100 small businesses what they know of it and what have they done?
Try 1000 and see what responses you get.

Are they aware?
Have they been informed as to what may go wrong?

Now I can't prophesise that power will fail.
But how well prepared is society for a 10 day blackout?

How well, will the Gov't survive when their current ratings, put them at a 'D' level?
They have far to go.

Remember that article on the Bell curve.
What sort of percentage are compliant as of now.
Where will the Bell curve fit in, in a years time.
Will we be up to 30% - 50% - 80% ???

Does this inspire confidence?

Sure there is much written and lots of information.
This doesn't mean a great deal.
Results is what we want.

So many people still think that Y2k will be a non issue.
They are not preparing for failures.
They think business will be same as usual.

Everyday I talk to people on the subject.
99% are uninformed - ill informed.
I'd guess that this is commonplace.

My greatest concern is not the D&G - nor the repairs.
More-so the contingency planning.
What to do if there is failures.

How will society cope if power is down?
If fear drives people to make a run on food and money.
If shops cannot get stock.
If telecommunications will fail.
etc. etc.

What we need is some level headed contingency planning.
And awareness to get out there, that there is a problem
And it is bigger than meets the eye.
And it's time that everyone started remediating and planning.
To be prepared.
But not to panic.

Cause if we don't do this.
Then we will have far bigger problems next year.

"A stitch in time"
As the old saying goes.
Don't just stare at that button that's about to fall off.
Fix it now!!!!

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:06 - ID#18357)
and what about that big oil meeting
by all the big oil concerns a few weeks ago ( 5-7 weeks ) ? that got me thinking too. and opec keeps cutting back and cheating at the same time, getting killed by the lower oil prices. no shiek is gonna take a pay cut unless there was going to be a payoff.

there is collusion afoot. oil is being kept in a box/ big pressure coming from different directions- very interesting.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:10 - ID#284255)
BUGal tomorrow's news today
And I want to see it tomorrow too.
y2k week
this from tomorrow morning's Financial Times ( Tuesday ) .

New millennium bomb fears
By Christopher Price

It is too late now for European and US companies to defuse the millennium
bomb in their computers, a comprehensive survey has revealed. The survey,
carried out by Cap Gemini, Europe's biggest software and services company,
urges governments to give up a broad-based approach to the problem and focus
their efforts on fixing computer systems that operate essential services.

The millennium, or 'Y2K', bomb refers to problems arising because older
computer systems are unable to recognise the date change from 1999 to 2000.
Geoff Unwin, Cap Gemini's vice-chairman, said: "As companies and
organisations begin tackling the computer bomb, they find the situation is
worse, more complicated and more expensive than they expected."

The company said that as a result the estimated cost of defusing the bomb in
the US and Europe had risen 20 per cent in the past six months to 508bn.

The report's pessimistic conclusions will be backed up tomorrow when
Taskforce 2000, the UK pressure group, is expected to report that a quarter
of UK government departments and agencies are badly prepared. Robin Guenier,
head of Taskforce 2000, said: "Governments should treat this issue as an

Cap Gemini found that US companies had spent 61 per cent of their estimated
cost of fixing the problem, while European organisations have almost reached
the halfway stage. But the Americans were less confident than the Europeans
that their systems would be adjusted in time.

"Why is the US less confident?" asked Mr Unwin. "Because they have seen the
size of the problem."

Of the total increase in planned expenditure on defusing the millennium bomb
that has emerged in the last six months, the share going to computer
hardware has risen by more than half to $169bn. Estimated software costs
have increased 12 per cent to $200bn, while staff costs have risen 17 per
cent to $489bn. One result of the channelling of resources into the problem
is that other information technology projects are being postponed. "We are
beginning to see a large and growing backlog of postponed IT initiatives,"
said Mr Unwin.

He denied that his company was using the issue to stimulate business for
itself, with only 6 per cent of its work related to the problem: "This issue
goes beyond corporate matters - it is absolutely essential that immediate
action is taken to protect the vital services in society."

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:13 - ID#350288)

The problem lies in that the stock not only split today but changed its ticker. I had to sell it by using ranyd. Tried using rangy but it would'nt go through. How about some help now that I have some cash freed up.At todays ices which one of these do you like best, if at all. ( SSRIF - GSR - TVX - DROOY )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:15 - ID#219363)
Meant to tell you and forgot: I talked to a lawyer last week who works down south in the states and y2k came up. We talked about it for a little while, this and that, and I asked him if he'd done any y2k business, and he says business is booming! *smile*. Most of it seems to be court cases dealing with software, things like cases against software manufacturers who are trying to sell the upgrade that is y2k compliant instead of just figuring a way out to get it into their customer's hands. Anyway, he suggested that no software engineers get into the "fixing y2k" business as it'll just lead to lots of liability if things were to go to hell. He said companies are just looking for people to sue for damages and even went so far as to hint that larger companies are the ones being contracted for such work over smaller companies because the larger companies have more cash to go after. Dunno, heard it through the grapevine, but this guy seemed to know some stuff about it. He said, she said.

Lan Man
(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:17 - ID#320108)
@From the Cafe
Charles Peabody

Mitchell Securities

November 2,1998

Outrageous-Dealers are Looking for Another Bailout

It was reported in today's Wall Street Journal that the "government-bond dealers are urging theFederal Reserve Bank of New York to buy government-sponsored enterprise debt ( i.e., GSEs such as Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FFCB and FHLB securities as part of its open market operations". Through the first nine months of 1998 these GSEs have issued about $4.5 trillion in debt. Banks, brokerage firms, and hedge funds have been huge underwriters and buyers of these securities. As I pointed out in earlier reports, banks, in particular, resumed their aggressive purchase of U.S. government securities ( primarily mortgage backs ) starting in the fall of 1997 ( see Charts 1, 2, and 3 ) . Since August of 1997, domestically chartered banks have added some $ 105 billion in securities to their investment portfolios of which $58 billion could be accounted for as mortgage-backed securities, including pass-throughs, CMOS, REMICs, etc. Currently such "agency" securities account for about a third of the average banks' investment security portfolio. However, as can be seen in Table 1, they can account for a significantly greater percentage of the larger banks' "available-for-sale" investment security portfolios. The problem that banks and underwriters of these securities now face is declining liquidity for these securities in the marketplace. This decline in liquidity is one of the side effects of the deleveraging of the system. Additionally, it is one of the reasons I remain bearish on the prospects for investment security gains in 1999, particularly for those organizations that have levered up on mortgage backed securities ( see Table 2 ) . Earlier this year, I wrote that the mortgage-backed securities market would be characterized by "arbitrage losses first, absolute losses later". While market participants seem encouraged by the recent firming of spreads, they are missing the fact that absolute losses are starting to develop. In other words, spreads are firming, in part, because the yield curve is starting to back up with longer dated securities selling off more rapidly than intermediate securities. Thus, we have the real reason behind the Bond Market Association's request that the fed consider "agencies" in their secondary open-market operations. Dealers and banks now carry a considerable inventory of such securities, but face the problem of having eliminated one of the end receptacles for these securities. That "end receptacle" was the "hedge fund Mafia". By pulling back on its funding to the hedge fund community, the banking industry has forced, in part, a deleveraging of the system. By association, the buyers for fixed income securities, particularly "agencies", has shrunk. In short, the banking and dealer community is now faced with a need to off load its inventory of securities into a declining market at a time when a major buyer of such securities has had its wings clipped. Therefore, the dealer community needs to replace that original buyer with another. Why not the Fed! After all, they have always stepped up in times of crisis to bail out the excesses of the financial community. The problem here is that if the international community perceives that the Fed is monetizing the U.S. debt, the U.S. dollar could come under even greater pressure than it is under now. I continue to view the Fed as increasingly putting itself in a bind that will result in a disappointment with respect to "interest sensitive" sources of income. Agency securities and investment security gains are only one piece of the puzzle. The risk/rewards of owning bank stocks at this point of the cycle continues to emerge as a poor bet. My emphasis continues to focus of recommending the sale of regional banks into any strength.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:24 - ID#284255)
Who wants MS Windows 98???
InfoWorld reports at
that Microsoft will be trying to get corporate customers to adopt Windows 2000, scheduled for the moment to be released in May.

The promotinal efforts will begin this month. Considering how many feel
that Microsoft has "marketing smarts", with Y2k approaching and some
companies considering or implementing software freezes, is this a desperate
move to appease shareholders? PC vendors are "quick to sign on" the article

What corporatin in their right mind would consider switching operating
systems in mid-1999 ( or based on past performance, probably later ) ? Here's
an additional goodie that doesn't make a whole lot of sense: "It will
point out critical issues surrounding adoption, such as the need to upgrade
a system's BIOS within 30 days of the operating system's release."

There is far more to this than meets the eye.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:25 - ID#255151)
sharefin-- Keeping Kitco on the Cutting Edge!

Looks like the Brits are starting to realize the danger of Y2K. I wonder if any Kitco folks could give an on the scene report from the UK. I would like to know if the British public is concerned and taking it seriously. Looks to me like the UK is getting ready to warn the public.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:28 - ID#34883)
@yellowcab/@end of article, re: prospects for oil

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:30 - ID#31868)
The way I look at Y2K is simple...because life is simple...people complicate every-
thing needlessly. Obviously nobody on the planet knows what exactly will happen in 1 year...1 month...21 days...and roughly 44 minutes...So that being a fact as best as a fact can be can any individual continually speak in terms of what will or will not seems to me that given the possibilities preparations should be made...

The degree and form which those preparations take is totally governed by the mind-setemotional makeup and background of the person making moreno less

The deadline for the arrival of Y2K is setalthough the ramifications within the scope of what Y2K entails is like a crescendo which will build and culminate on January 1, 2000emotionally, financially, and in real world terms as Y2K items occur or do not occur

I can find no fault with those who are constantly trying to unravel what is a mystery which can only be answered with each tick of the clocknor can I find any fault with those who place information intended to help othersand I find no fault with the skepticsalthough I would prefer to be led out of a pitch black cave by a blind man and not an individual who is a virgin to the enveloping depth of the dark

So sleuth and skeptic be a tad more civil as nobody has a concept of what will really happen in the future with any exactitude what so ever

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:34 - ID#298259)
Just got off the phone with my Fidelity broker and they are saying it was a 7 for 10 reverse split if so I won't be buying back at these prices.

I own a small amount of SSRIF - prospects are good but just don't like the way silver is trading. Bought and sold DROOY. Out of the choices you presented I would have to say GSR. I am currently looking at GRERF, MAENF, CCH, GSR, and TVX as plays if tax loss selling drives them down.

I really like MAENF because of their heavy cash position. The worker strike and higher costs have driven the price down but at least they have the cash to survive the depressed gold prices. CCH also has quite a bit of cash.


(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:35 - ID#254288)
There goosing the dollar up again

Or should I say greasing the dollar to shaft the currencies, best fugging fiat on earth.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:36 - ID#284255)
Is Gary North Wrong About Y2K?

Chicken man
(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:40 - ID#341297)
Tantalus @ My gizzard feeling
Hoping for rally to carry to 127 1/2....hoping early in the AM...Need to buy a pile of puts...I'm like the air force ads... AIM HIGH...Think there might be a cool million in it if I play my cards right... buy a lot a puts....then head to Chicago...go down to the CBOT....and listen to the fat lady sing high noon I'm told ( option expiry ) ..could be fun!

The latest poop from the coop..Chicken man..

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:42 - ID#284255)
I'd guess awareness in the UK would be similiar to here in OZ.

But they do seems to be coming out of the closet a little faster ( :- ) ) )

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:43 - ID#24135)
..You know me, Al..
I been traded ...

another day in the life of a Rangy fan ..

how about i trade ya 17.5 old rangy Plus a left handed
relief pitcher for 10 RRS plus cash a utility infielder
and 2 new Ranyds..

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:43 - ID#238422)
Spock, your 19:22
I must disagree that IMF or West or USA should
share responsibility for Russian mess. Russians did it
to themselves, they had a great opportunity to create
a health economic and political systems, particularly
considering tremendous resourses of Russia, but failed
to do so....because of several factors, mainly a very
special mentality ( Communist ideology did work at the end
of the day.. ) and
lack of knowledge on how to run cost-effective enterpices...
which could compete worldwide ( excluding very few areas
where Russia managed to stay competative... )
Also, Russians "got drunk" from a lot of freedom they got
since 1991 - freedom does assume use of some self-control,
which was not there...

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:44 - ID#284255)
From a dedicated Kitco lurker
Who wanted me to share this with many.

Subject: A religious guidepost for the new millennium


As we boldly cross that long bridge to the 21st century together, with a renewed
vision for the future, and a solemn reverance for the past, we must always
remember that all our hopes and aspirations rest solidly on our unified
commitment to continue in our faith, our true religion. No where else is it so
important to remember this than during our time each day in the work place. For
it is here, that blessings are bestowed upon us, as we are rewarded each day
with our $ value numbers, each according to his needs.

We must stamp out all heresy, for there are those today, who question the most
holy one himself, yes, I am speaking of the Roostervelt. As hard as it is to
believe, after 65 years of posperity which his holiness brought upon the land,
when as mere common dirt grubbing peasants, the Roostervelt, took it upon
himself to deliver us from our toils, and labors, to insure our prosperity into
perpetuity, by giving us his holy value numbers as a free and undeserved gift.
Yes, there was a time when we toiled and slaved for that dirty, unholy, earthly
abomination, that dirty yellow metal, that gold. This unholy striving for the
dirty yellow metal, had led to our great calamities of the past but happily,
today, we have been freed from the need for money. Yes, on that day in 1933,
when in exchange for our gold, the Roostervelt performed the great miracle by
which gold is transformed into the Roostervelt value number, gave us our
Roostervelt value number sign $, annointed our $ priests, and erected the great
$ temples where our value numbers are created, thereby creating our wealth which
to this very day is freely given to each citizen to provide for his every need.

Sometimes, it is important to be reminded that the annointed value numbers, the
$s, must be sheltered and nourished, in order for them to maintain their
holiness and value. The only place where this can be properly done is in the $
temple. For the temple is where each $ is created, and it is only fitting, that
this is where the $s should be stored. For it is here, that the $ priest can
carefully observe the $s to see if they have diminished in holiness and value,
and in the case where some of them have become diminished, they can be restored
to their true holiness and value by a special annointing which only a certified
$ priest can perform.

Now, it should be abundantly clear to all, that this is why we are required to
store our $s in the $ temples. For only under the watchful eye of $ priest can
value of the $s be maintained.

We must also remember, that the circulated $ paper, which is imprinted with the
annointed value number, is not in and of itself, valuable. Their worth or
holiness is derived from their being annointed and proclaimed holy by $ priest
in the $ temples. We must use these $ papers sparingly, for after a time, they
loose their annointing, and the annointing must be replentished, by returning
the $ papers to the $ temples.

We must not lose faith in our $ numbers. For it is from the $s, which we obtain
all wealth and even life itself. To lose the faith is the greatest heresy,
second only to the heresy to pose the question; If that dirty yellow metal, that
gold is no longer valuable and is fully replaced by the $ numbers, why do the $
priests insist in storing so much of it in the $ temples? Well, we all know the
answer, that it was done for the children, for our own well being, for if we
each had some of the dirty yellow metal, we might be tempted to lose faith in
the $ numbers, and once again lapse into that ancient barbaric practice or using
gold as a medium of exchange.

Yes, we can all sleep well tonight, with the calm assurance, that tomorrow, as
we awake to a new day, there is only the slightest, remotest possibility that
the $ numbers will lose their value. For this to happen, it would be necessary
for the masses to give up their extreme religious fanatical faith and confidence
in the value of the $ numbers. And what would happen to the bull stock market?
Perish the thought. Yes, extremist religious fanaticism is good, especially when
everyone participates....

Live long and prosper,

Captain Kirk

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:46 - ID#31868)
Auric, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...there have been billboards (side of roads)
up in England for several months now...we have family there as well as many friends and I had been sending them info for quite some started with a trickle months ago...and is a major topic would seem that the general public there has been given far greater lead time...

John Disney
(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:51 - ID#24135)
East-Dagga Caper..
for Info ..
anyone that tried the east-dagga caper .. did okay ..
on friday e-dagga was Rd 7.4 .. today was conversion
to anglos on sale of gold slimes assets ..
per share of dagga you get 0.0238 shares of anggold
at Rd 268 = 6.37 rand + accrued anggold div = 0.17
per share = Rd 6.55 and new e-dagga ( which I said
had 2 rand/share of cash plus plat slimes and other
stuff .. closed at 2 rands .. all in get back 8.50
worth of stuff on Monday.

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:56 - ID#34883)
not bad! :/ )

(Mon Nov 09 1998 23:56 - ID#350288)

Thanks for your view. I agree with n rangy and will buy it back if it drops to 1.25 -1.35. I am holding grerf and looking for $2+ next run. I am going to go look at MAENF and CCH because I have never taken look at them.